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Here’s a new Open Thread for all of you. To minimize the load, please continue to limit your Tweets or place them under a MORE tag.

And here’s my own recent article for those who haven’t already seen it:

https://www.unz.com/runz/the-alt-covid-community-begins-unraveling-the-origins-of-covid/

 
• Tags: Open Thread, Russia, Ukraine 
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  1. Mr. Unz,

    The new thread is appreciated.

    PEACE 😇

     

    • Agree: Bo Bo, AnonfromTN
  2. Always notable to me how Turks in Germany looked, on average, quite a bit different than the Greeks that I have known in America.

    Had wondered if that was because they were Kurds or something (a lot of them are Kurds), but according to this map, Greeks are more closely related to the French than to Turks:

    [MORE]

    Surprising to me since Greece and Turkey used to be one landmass.

    No wonder they fight.

    • Replies: @Yahya
    @songbird


    but according to this map, Greeks are more closely related to the French than to Turks:
     
    You are being deceitful by selecting France as the basis for comparison.

    Greeks are closer genetically to Turks than just about 90% of European populations.

    Though you may think they look "quite a bit different"; I'm willing to bet you'd have a hard time guessing the national origin of anonymous Greeks and Turks.

    More importantly for you; the Greeks are closer to Turks than to the Irish. That's why I will always get a chuckle when some goofball Irish-American retard takes pride in Alexander's conquests as if his people had anything to with it. But then again, most of your delusions give me a chuckle anyway, so it's hardly unique in that respect.

    Replies: @songbird, @Hapalong Cassidy

    , @Another Polish Perspective
    @songbird

    The map pretty well reflects the legend that Greeks and Phoenician were half-brothers, Europa being a Phoenician princess and Kadmos (founder of Thebes) her brother.

    Lands colonized by Phoenicians and Carthaginians like Sicily, south of France, Spain are pretty close to Greece. Moreover, the land of Tuscany, once of Etruria, is close to Greece - in antiquity, Etruscans and Carthaginians were allies, but because almost nothing remains from their writings, we don't know anything about potential claims of kinship, but at least confirms the legend that Etruscans originally came from Asia Minor.

    In Greece I heard some claims that nowadays, "half of Greece are former Albanians", which would explain proximity to Kosovars [meaning here Albanian Kosovars].

    Replies: @Another Polish Perspective, @songbird

  3. Often feel weirded out by protests in Continental Europe where they are shouting slogans in English. But I think the absolute height of this is when they were shouting “Free the Leopards!” in Berlin.

    Even if they weren’t German, couldn’t they have bothered to learn it in German?

    Perhaps, it is all a Machiavellian move by the Poles to increase their armor advantage even more.

    • Replies: @Wokechoke
    @songbird

    Send in Manstein and Guderian!

    Replies: @songbird, @AnonfromTN

    , @S
    @songbird


    Often feel weirded out by protests in Continental Europe where they are shouting slogans in English. But I think the absolute height of this is when they were shouting “Free the Leopards!” in Berlin.
     
    The Germans, too, are a bit 'weirded' out about it.

    https://youtu.be/Rr8ljRgcJNM
  4. @songbird
    Always notable to me how Turks in Germany looked, on average, quite a bit different than the Greeks that I have known in America.

    Had wondered if that was because they were Kurds or something (a lot of them are Kurds), but according to this map, Greeks are more closely related to the French than to Turks:

    https://twitter.com/AquaPaadre/status/1617083744732737541?s=20&t=W-6sAu9VaKIuodMWjN6Heg

    Surprising to me since Greece and Turkey used to be one landmass.

    No wonder they fight.

    Replies: @Yahya, @Another Polish Perspective

    but according to this map, Greeks are more closely related to the French than to Turks:

    You are being deceitful by selecting France as the basis for comparison.

    Greeks are closer genetically to Turks than just about 90% of European populations.

    Though you may think they look “quite a bit different”; I’m willing to bet you’d have a hard time guessing the national origin of anonymous Greeks and Turks.

    More importantly for you; the Greeks are closer to Turks than to the Irish. That’s why I will always get a chuckle when some goofball Irish-American retard takes pride in Alexander’s conquests as if his people had anything to with it. But then again, most of your delusions give me a chuckle anyway, so it’s hardly unique in that respect.

    • LOL: songbird
    • Replies: @songbird
    @Yahya

    The map doesn't even have the genetic distance to Ireland on it - I imagine this is because it is zero.

    -Yahya's theory of mind

    Replies: @Yahya

    , @Hapalong Cassidy
    @Yahya

    Yet oddly enough, the Turkish language is more closely related to Korean than it is to any other European or Middle-Eastern language.

    Replies: @Yevardian

  5. (previous thread, several days ago)

    I don’t think the poor are especially sinful, as a class, nor are they commonly saints. In the US, one common way to be poor, certainly, is to exhibit poor self-control, to be too ready for the drink or too quick to anger or too lustful. That those who are low in society turn to the fiercer satisfactions, and doing so helps keep them poor, while those who are more wealthy can turn to more refined pleasures, is not especially surprising.

    These are, however, not the only sins one can commit, and the refined and the luxurious are not necessarily the better people for it. I seem to recall someone saying something somewhere about camels and eyes of needles?

    Pride, for instance, the first sin and chief of sins, does not seem to be quite so much of a temptation to the poor of America, whereas it is actually celebrated by many of the rich.

    It was after all not the justified man who said I thank thee, God, that I am not like the rest of men, who steal and cheat and commit adultery, or like this publican here; for myself, I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.

    • Replies: @Wokechoke
    @RSDB

    Calvinist Much.

    Replies: @RSDB

    , @Barbarossa
    @RSDB

    I've often reflected how strange it is that the 7 deadly sins are basically the motive virtues of the modern world. Lust, greed, pride, etc. are all deified.

    I suppose it's not really surprising that a society that elevates such characteristics would have an increasing number of failures, represented by the homeless and the addicted. In some cases anyhow they may be seen as the result of what happens when some of these vices fully take control of a life. The rich may very often be an example of the same vices harnessed to a self-serving extent.

    This isn't to say that I dismiss the homeless as bad people. In many cases they are hapless victims of a sick and twisted society which doesn't even possess the sense to have moral standards and safeguards for those who may not have sharp enough wits to discern their own.

    Any way you look at it, I think it's impossible for these cases of human failure to be seen as anything but an unflattering mirror on the broken society that creates and perpetuates such cases.

    Replies: @RSDB

    , @AP
    @RSDB


    I don’t think the poor are especially sinful, as a class
     
    You are mistaken. They are more likely to commit various sins. I posted that earlier.

    That those who are low in society turn to the fiercer satisfactions, and doing so helps keep them poor, while those who are more wealthy can turn to more refined pleasures, is not especially surprising.
     
    Of course. Not only more refined, but less harmful. Our Christian society has been structured in such a way that sins are viewed as disreputable.

    I seem to recall someone saying something somewhere about camels and eyes of needles?
     
    Orthodox source:

    https://www.goarch.org/-/orthodox-christian-wealth-and-stewardship

    It would be easy to misunderstand Jesus here and to assume that it’s impossible for a rich person to get into heaven. But Jesus was most likely making an example of this self-righteous young ruler. He is a sad example of a person who is convinced he is religious, but misses the whole point. He followed the letter of the law, yet he did not carry love in his heart.

    St. Clement warns us not to interpret this passage to mean that wealth will keep us from the kingdom of heaven. He writes that it is the attitude of the soul that is important. It is the passion for wealth, not the wealth itself that condemns a man. Catholic source:

    https://blog.acton.org/archives/23341-st-clement-of-alexandria-on-the-value-of-wealth.html#:~:text=%E2%80%9CRiches%20then%20should%20not%20be,for%20the%20use%20of%20men.%E2%80%9D

    Clement wrote that a person could give everything away only to doubly regret his decision. To teach that Jesus intends for every disciple to give up everything contradicts statements like those of Luke 16:9, which urges us to make friends by the use of wealth. “Riches then should not be rejected if they can be of use to our neighbor. They are accurately called possessions because they are possessed by people, and goods or utilities because with them one can do good and because they have been ordained by God for the use of men.”

    What Clement is saying is that goods and possessions can be instruments in the hands of skilled servants who use them to bless others and advance great good. “Riches, then, are also an instrument.” If rightly used they can bring about justice and service. He added, “In themselves riches are blameless.”

    Pride, for instance, the first sin and chief of sins, does not seem to be quite so much of a temptation to the poor of America
     
    Poor can be just as proud as rich people. A lot of poor people even needlessly kill one another over issues of pride and respect.

    For those who enjoy the Gospels, being active in using the gifts one has been given is good. Idleness is not:



    https://i.imgur.com/XdRuUhz.png

    Replies: @RSDB, @Mikel

  6. @Yahya
    @songbird


    but according to this map, Greeks are more closely related to the French than to Turks:
     
    You are being deceitful by selecting France as the basis for comparison.

    Greeks are closer genetically to Turks than just about 90% of European populations.

    Though you may think they look "quite a bit different"; I'm willing to bet you'd have a hard time guessing the national origin of anonymous Greeks and Turks.

    More importantly for you; the Greeks are closer to Turks than to the Irish. That's why I will always get a chuckle when some goofball Irish-American retard takes pride in Alexander's conquests as if his people had anything to with it. But then again, most of your delusions give me a chuckle anyway, so it's hardly unique in that respect.

    Replies: @songbird, @Hapalong Cassidy

    The map doesn’t even have the genetic distance to Ireland on it – I imagine this is because it is zero.

    -Yahya’s theory of mind

    • Replies: @Yahya
    @songbird


    The map doesn’t even have the genetic distance to Ireland on it – I imagine this is because it is zero. -Yahya’s theory of mind
     
    Your "comebacks" get meeker and stupider by the second. I ought to pick a new antagonist; it's no fun to beat on a dead sheep. But unfortunately, no-one else here pisses me off as much as you do. Nor for a matter of fact in real life either. You have to be the most obnoxious human being I've yet encountered. So you'll continue receiving insults from me until I find someone else as racist and imbecilic (tall order) as you.

    I don’t need to rely on your map for genetic distance figures. Unlike you, I'm capable of performing basic research to gather facts and back-up my assertions.

    Population structure within Europe (Novembre J., Johnson T., Bryc K., et al. (2008). Genes mirror geography within Europe. Nature 456: 98-101):

    https://greek-dna-sub-saharan-myth.org/images/genetics/novembre-fig1a.png


    Notice the quadrant Greece (GR) is located in. Then look at Turkey (TR). Then Ireland (IR).

    Genetic distance from Minoan and Mycenean Greeks:


    https://preview.redd.it/2w20vkg9xrm61.jpg?auto=webp&s=24fa458dad7aadc9fc437f0ceb0d485e6c97b577


    Just in case you can't grasp the chart; the orange/red parts are closer; the green/blue more distant.

    ------------------------------

    @Another Polish Perspective


    but at least confirms the legend that Etruscans originally came from Asia Minor.
     
    Well, you're wrong; because everyone knows that Irish-Americans are the closest group to the Ancient Greeks. Alexander was practically a red-headed Celt. If you look closely at this portrait of him; you can even spot a shamrock somewhere on his armor.


    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e1/Alexander_the_Great_mosaic.jpg


    The map pretty well reflects the legend that Greeks and Phoenician were half-brothers, Europa being a Phoenician princess and Kadmos (founder of Thebes) her brother.
     
    Phoenicians were Brown Middle Eastern people; thus were totally unrelated to the White European Greeks.

    The claim that Europa originates in Phoenicia is woke retconning of real European history. In reality; the word has its origins in Franco-Celtic traditions. Songbird's Norman and Celtic ancestors all played a part in developing this mythos; he can tell you more about it.

    Replies: @songbird, @Emil Nikola Richard

  7. @songbird
    Always notable to me how Turks in Germany looked, on average, quite a bit different than the Greeks that I have known in America.

    Had wondered if that was because they were Kurds or something (a lot of them are Kurds), but according to this map, Greeks are more closely related to the French than to Turks:

    https://twitter.com/AquaPaadre/status/1617083744732737541?s=20&t=W-6sAu9VaKIuodMWjN6Heg

    Surprising to me since Greece and Turkey used to be one landmass.

    No wonder they fight.

    Replies: @Yahya, @Another Polish Perspective

    The map pretty well reflects the legend that Greeks and Phoenician were half-brothers, Europa being a Phoenician princess and Kadmos (founder of Thebes) her brother.

    Lands colonized by Phoenicians and Carthaginians like Sicily, south of France, Spain are pretty close to Greece. Moreover, the land of Tuscany, once of Etruria, is close to Greece – in antiquity, Etruscans and Carthaginians were allies, but because almost nothing remains from their writings, we don’t know anything about potential claims of kinship, but at least confirms the legend that Etruscans originally came from Asia Minor.

    In Greece I heard some claims that nowadays, “half of Greece are former Albanians”, which would explain proximity to Kosovars [meaning here Albanian Kosovars].

    • Replies: @Another Polish Perspective
    @Another Polish Perspective

    To be true, south of France and Sicily were colonized by Greeks as well.

    , @songbird
    @Another Polish Perspective

    Personally, would consider the explanation as being mostly just down to EEF being more populous in Southern Europe, due to their crops working better (and thus less susceptible to displacement.) But, maybe, Greek colonials traveled in the same directions as EEF did in the neolithic, having much the same crops, and making it even closer?

    There's also this idea that Bell Beaker traveled up the Atlantic coast from the Med, so maybe that helped a bit, in the case of France?

    Am shocked by how far Sardinia reads. Wonder if it could be a mistake.

  8. @Another Polish Perspective
    @songbird

    The map pretty well reflects the legend that Greeks and Phoenician were half-brothers, Europa being a Phoenician princess and Kadmos (founder of Thebes) her brother.

    Lands colonized by Phoenicians and Carthaginians like Sicily, south of France, Spain are pretty close to Greece. Moreover, the land of Tuscany, once of Etruria, is close to Greece - in antiquity, Etruscans and Carthaginians were allies, but because almost nothing remains from their writings, we don't know anything about potential claims of kinship, but at least confirms the legend that Etruscans originally came from Asia Minor.

    In Greece I heard some claims that nowadays, "half of Greece are former Albanians", which would explain proximity to Kosovars [meaning here Albanian Kosovars].

    Replies: @Another Polish Perspective, @songbird

    To be true, south of France and Sicily were colonized by Greeks as well.

  9. @songbird
    @Yahya

    The map doesn't even have the genetic distance to Ireland on it - I imagine this is because it is zero.

    -Yahya's theory of mind

    Replies: @Yahya

    The map doesn’t even have the genetic distance to Ireland on it – I imagine this is because it is zero. -Yahya’s theory of mind

    Your “comebacks” get meeker and stupider by the second. I ought to pick a new antagonist; it’s no fun to beat on a dead sheep. But unfortunately, no-one else here pisses me off as much as you do. Nor for a matter of fact in real life either. You have to be the most obnoxious human being I’ve yet encountered. So you’ll continue receiving insults from me until I find someone else as racist and imbecilic (tall order) as you.

    [MORE]

    I don’t need to rely on your map for genetic distance figures. Unlike you, I’m capable of performing basic research to gather facts and back-up my assertions.

    Population structure within Europe (Novembre J., Johnson T., Bryc K., et al. (2008). Genes mirror geography within Europe. Nature 456: 98-101):

    Notice the quadrant Greece (GR) is located in. Then look at Turkey (TR). Then Ireland (IR).

    Genetic distance from Minoan and Mycenean Greeks:

    Just in case you can’t grasp the chart; the orange/red parts are closer; the green/blue more distant.

    ——————————

    but at least confirms the legend that Etruscans originally came from Asia Minor.

    Well, you’re wrong; because everyone knows that Irish-Americans are the closest group to the Ancient Greeks. Alexander was practically a red-headed Celt. If you look closely at this portrait of him; you can even spot a shamrock somewhere on his armor.

    The map pretty well reflects the legend that Greeks and Phoenician were half-brothers, Europa being a Phoenician princess and Kadmos (founder of Thebes) her brother.

    Phoenicians were Brown Middle Eastern people; thus were totally unrelated to the White European Greeks.

    The claim that Europa originates in Phoenicia is woke retconning of real European history. In reality; the word has its origins in Franco-Celtic traditions. Songbird’s Norman and Celtic ancestors all played a part in developing this mythos; he can tell you more about it.

    • Replies: @songbird
    @Yahya

    Am afraid that when you were ruled by the Greeks and then by Turks that was two different overlords, and not one, as you may have hoped.

    https://twitter.com/spacemarine000/status/1606784580245016576?s=20&t=eMlfo5l5EPsj7PZNGJdYNA

    Replies: @Yahya

    , @Emil Nikola Richard
    @Yahya

    That data plot reminds of OJ Simpson's blood splatter pattern expert witness.

    http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/Simpson/leetest.html

  10. @songbird
    Often feel weirded out by protests in Continental Europe where they are shouting slogans in English. But I think the absolute height of this is when they were shouting "Free the Leopards!" in Berlin.

    Even if they weren't German, couldn't they have bothered to learn it in German?

    Perhaps, it is all a Machiavellian move by the Poles to increase their armor advantage even more.

    Replies: @Wokechoke, @S

    Send in Manstein and Guderian!

    • Replies: @songbird
    @Wokechoke

    I honestly do think that the probability of the Poles annexing parts of Germany is pretty high in the timeframe of the next half century. They would need to have nukes though.

    @Yahya
    Genetic distance depends on both the SNPs used and the specific individuals in the sample. That it differs very slightly between the two posts I have cited has no bearing on my point, which is that the genetic distance between Greeks and Turks is significant.

    Am puzzled by why you can't seem to accept this, even though you are not Turkish. Being open-minded and adaptable, I took it in stride, even though it went against my previous ideas. (I set aside phenotype)


    Had it not been for East Eurasian admixture; Turks would be almost identical to Greeks genetically.
     
    And there is the rub, and the source of the divisions. It is a pity that Constantinople fell. It would have prevented a lot of division and conflict, if its walls had stood.

    Deceit once again.
     
    Try to pick a different tagline. That one is already in use.

    Your “comebacks” get meeker
     
    Well, I'm trying to not be rude. (maybe, try it some time?)

    But suffice it to say that you don't understand Irishmen, if, as you keep asserting, you think that I would need to have some distant, vicarious connection to other Europeans in order to feel superior. Rather, it would suffice that I am an Irishman.

    Replies: @Yahya, @S

    , @AnonfromTN
    @Wokechoke

    Germans did, about 80 years ago. We all know how it ended for Germany.

  11. @RSDB
    @AP (previous thread, several days ago)

    I don't think the poor are especially sinful, as a class, nor are they commonly saints. In the US, one common way to be poor, certainly, is to exhibit poor self-control, to be too ready for the drink or too quick to anger or too lustful. That those who are low in society turn to the fiercer satisfactions, and doing so helps keep them poor, while those who are more wealthy can turn to more refined pleasures, is not especially surprising.

    These are, however, not the only sins one can commit, and the refined and the luxurious are not necessarily the better people for it. I seem to recall someone saying something somewhere about camels and eyes of needles?

    Pride, for instance, the first sin and chief of sins, does not seem to be quite so much of a temptation to the poor of America, whereas it is actually celebrated by many of the rich.

    It was after all not the justified man who said I thank thee, God, that I am not like the rest of men, who steal and cheat and commit adultery, or like this publican here; for myself, I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.

    Replies: @Wokechoke, @Barbarossa, @AP

    Calvinist Much.

    • Replies: @RSDB
    @Wokechoke

    Calvinist None, I hope.

  12. @Another Polish Perspective
    @songbird

    The map pretty well reflects the legend that Greeks and Phoenician were half-brothers, Europa being a Phoenician princess and Kadmos (founder of Thebes) her brother.

    Lands colonized by Phoenicians and Carthaginians like Sicily, south of France, Spain are pretty close to Greece. Moreover, the land of Tuscany, once of Etruria, is close to Greece - in antiquity, Etruscans and Carthaginians were allies, but because almost nothing remains from their writings, we don't know anything about potential claims of kinship, but at least confirms the legend that Etruscans originally came from Asia Minor.

    In Greece I heard some claims that nowadays, "half of Greece are former Albanians", which would explain proximity to Kosovars [meaning here Albanian Kosovars].

    Replies: @Another Polish Perspective, @songbird

    Personally, would consider the explanation as being mostly just down to EEF being more populous in Southern Europe, due to their crops working better (and thus less susceptible to displacement.) But, maybe, Greek colonials traveled in the same directions as EEF did in the neolithic, having much the same crops, and making it even closer?

    There’s also this idea that Bell Beaker traveled up the Atlantic coast from the Med, so maybe that helped a bit, in the case of France?

    Am shocked by how far Sardinia reads. Wonder if it could be a mistake.

  13. @Yahya
    @songbird


    The map doesn’t even have the genetic distance to Ireland on it – I imagine this is because it is zero. -Yahya’s theory of mind
     
    Your "comebacks" get meeker and stupider by the second. I ought to pick a new antagonist; it's no fun to beat on a dead sheep. But unfortunately, no-one else here pisses me off as much as you do. Nor for a matter of fact in real life either. You have to be the most obnoxious human being I've yet encountered. So you'll continue receiving insults from me until I find someone else as racist and imbecilic (tall order) as you.

    I don’t need to rely on your map for genetic distance figures. Unlike you, I'm capable of performing basic research to gather facts and back-up my assertions.

    Population structure within Europe (Novembre J., Johnson T., Bryc K., et al. (2008). Genes mirror geography within Europe. Nature 456: 98-101):

    https://greek-dna-sub-saharan-myth.org/images/genetics/novembre-fig1a.png


    Notice the quadrant Greece (GR) is located in. Then look at Turkey (TR). Then Ireland (IR).

    Genetic distance from Minoan and Mycenean Greeks:


    https://preview.redd.it/2w20vkg9xrm61.jpg?auto=webp&s=24fa458dad7aadc9fc437f0ceb0d485e6c97b577


    Just in case you can't grasp the chart; the orange/red parts are closer; the green/blue more distant.

    ------------------------------

    @Another Polish Perspective


    but at least confirms the legend that Etruscans originally came from Asia Minor.
     
    Well, you're wrong; because everyone knows that Irish-Americans are the closest group to the Ancient Greeks. Alexander was practically a red-headed Celt. If you look closely at this portrait of him; you can even spot a shamrock somewhere on his armor.


    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e1/Alexander_the_Great_mosaic.jpg


    The map pretty well reflects the legend that Greeks and Phoenician were half-brothers, Europa being a Phoenician princess and Kadmos (founder of Thebes) her brother.
     
    Phoenicians were Brown Middle Eastern people; thus were totally unrelated to the White European Greeks.

    The claim that Europa originates in Phoenicia is woke retconning of real European history. In reality; the word has its origins in Franco-Celtic traditions. Songbird's Norman and Celtic ancestors all played a part in developing this mythos; he can tell you more about it.

    Replies: @songbird, @Emil Nikola Richard

    Am afraid that when you were ruled by the Greeks and then by Turks that was two different overlords, and not one, as you may have hoped.

    [MORE]

    • Replies: @Yahya
    @songbird

    Deceit once again.

    1) The first map you linked to shows Turkish-Greek genetic distance (5) as being smaller than Greek-German (6). Now you shift around like a snake; linking to another Tweet.

    2) We were talking about the Irish, not Germans.

    3) Ancient Greeks were further from Germans in antiquity than today. Modern Greeks received 20-25% Slavic admixture following the fall of Byzantium; which pulled them towards Germany (itself a Slavic-mixed nation).

    4) Turks exhibit 12-20% East Eurasian admixture which pulls them away from Greeks. Since East Eurasian DNA is extremely distant from West Eurasian DNA; just a small pulse can dramatically shift Turks on the PCA. But even so, Turks are still closer to Greeks than the Irish (and every other N. European nation). In fact a substantial portion of Turks are in essence Turkified Greeks. Had it not been for East Eurasian admixture; Turks would be almost identical to Greeks genetically.

    5) The Irish have squat-all to do with Ancient Greece.

    So your efforts to "own" fail miserably once again; owing to your general incoherence and lack of honesty.

    Replies: @Wokechoke, @Finn, @Philip Owen, @Emil Nikola Richard

  14. @songbird
    @Yahya

    Am afraid that when you were ruled by the Greeks and then by Turks that was two different overlords, and not one, as you may have hoped.

    https://twitter.com/spacemarine000/status/1606784580245016576?s=20&t=eMlfo5l5EPsj7PZNGJdYNA

    Replies: @Yahya

    Deceit once again.

    1) The first map you linked to shows Turkish-Greek genetic distance (5) as being smaller than Greek-German (6). Now you shift around like a snake; linking to another Tweet.

    2) We were talking about the Irish, not Germans.

    3) Ancient Greeks were further from Germans in antiquity than today. Modern Greeks received 20-25% Slavic admixture following the fall of Byzantium; which pulled them towards Germany (itself a Slavic-mixed nation).

    4) Turks exhibit 12-20% East Eurasian admixture which pulls them away from Greeks. Since East Eurasian DNA is extremely distant from West Eurasian DNA; just a small pulse can dramatically shift Turks on the PCA. But even so, Turks are still closer to Greeks than the Irish (and every other N. European nation). In fact a substantial portion of Turks are in essence Turkified Greeks. Had it not been for East Eurasian admixture; Turks would be almost identical to Greeks genetically.

    5) The Irish have squat-all to do with Ancient Greece.

    So your efforts to “own” fail miserably once again; owing to your general incoherence and lack of honesty.

    • Thanks: Sher Singh
    • Replies: @Wokechoke
    @Yahya

    The Celts sacked Greece.

    , @Finn
    @Yahya

    Were not the Gaels settlers or Asia minor and Greece? Ala Galatians?

    Replies: @Yahya, @Yevardian

    , @Philip Owen
    @Yahya

    Brutus, the alleged first ruler of Britain came from Troy. No obvious link but were the Trojans Greeks?

    I would have expected Bashkiris and Turks to show some kinship.

    Replies: @Wokechoke

    , @Emil Nikola Richard
    @Yahya

    Be sure to stop by reddit and give this one an up vote:

    https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/10jsrav/when_did_irish_men_stop_sucking_each_others/

    Replies: @songbird

  15. As you point out:

    Meanwhile, a cadre of Deri’s allies arrived at his home, including Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich, and Shas MKs. Several Rabbis also paid a visit to his residence to express their support.

    It is also with noting that 100% of Deri’s portfolio will be transferred to other members of his Shas party. And, Deri himself has voluntarily ceded: (1)

    Deri says it was clear that the two would abide by the court decision as soon as it was made, and appears to contrast that dutiful adherence to the judges’ ruling with opposition activism against the coalition’s planned judicial overhaul. “There was no doubt about that at any stage,” he says, contrasting this to those who talk about the primacy of the rule of law while calling “to breach the public order and to breach Knesset and government decisions.”

    The increasingly desperate, and soon to be less relevant, ultra-left court tried to provoke Netanyahu’s Center-Right coalition to premature action. It did not work. The “Deri Reforms” are still progressing through the Knesset. Once passed, the Knesset will have oversight power to rein in illicit court actions that contravene the Basic Law.
    ____

    Much has been made of demonstrations against the inevitable reforms. However, that whining comes from Leftoid media that want to undermine necessary change. In actuality, the events have been quite modest by local standards: (2)

    The myth of Israel’s ‘mass anti-government protests’ — Despite the media’s lies, the leftist rallies are no big deal.

    While Israel is a small country, getting 100,000 protesters, on any side, to take to the streets is really not very hard. Here are just half a dozen examples: In January 2004, some 120,000 people took part in a protest against Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon’s disastrous disengagement from Gaza.

    Anti-government rallies of 100,000 or more might be a big deal in some places, but they’re common in Israel.

    Deri will obtain near 100% of what Shas wants. He could even return as a government minister once the Knesset, as a matter of law, is established as supreme above the mislabeled inferior court.

    Enraging lesser judiciary members into quitting cleans up the replacement process. However, slowly grinding them down by making them irrelevant also has a certain poetic justice. Either way the far-left will finally be excised from undeserved & misused authority.

    PEACE 😇
    __________

    (1) https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/deri-says-he-abides-by-court-decision-emphasizes-duty-to-remain-shas-chief/

    (2) https://www.jns.org/opinion/the-myth-of-israels-mass-anti-government-protests/

  16. @Yahya
    @songbird


    The map doesn’t even have the genetic distance to Ireland on it – I imagine this is because it is zero. -Yahya’s theory of mind
     
    Your "comebacks" get meeker and stupider by the second. I ought to pick a new antagonist; it's no fun to beat on a dead sheep. But unfortunately, no-one else here pisses me off as much as you do. Nor for a matter of fact in real life either. You have to be the most obnoxious human being I've yet encountered. So you'll continue receiving insults from me until I find someone else as racist and imbecilic (tall order) as you.

    I don’t need to rely on your map for genetic distance figures. Unlike you, I'm capable of performing basic research to gather facts and back-up my assertions.

    Population structure within Europe (Novembre J., Johnson T., Bryc K., et al. (2008). Genes mirror geography within Europe. Nature 456: 98-101):

    https://greek-dna-sub-saharan-myth.org/images/genetics/novembre-fig1a.png


    Notice the quadrant Greece (GR) is located in. Then look at Turkey (TR). Then Ireland (IR).

    Genetic distance from Minoan and Mycenean Greeks:


    https://preview.redd.it/2w20vkg9xrm61.jpg?auto=webp&s=24fa458dad7aadc9fc437f0ceb0d485e6c97b577


    Just in case you can't grasp the chart; the orange/red parts are closer; the green/blue more distant.

    ------------------------------

    @Another Polish Perspective


    but at least confirms the legend that Etruscans originally came from Asia Minor.
     
    Well, you're wrong; because everyone knows that Irish-Americans are the closest group to the Ancient Greeks. Alexander was practically a red-headed Celt. If you look closely at this portrait of him; you can even spot a shamrock somewhere on his armor.


    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e1/Alexander_the_Great_mosaic.jpg


    The map pretty well reflects the legend that Greeks and Phoenician were half-brothers, Europa being a Phoenician princess and Kadmos (founder of Thebes) her brother.
     
    Phoenicians were Brown Middle Eastern people; thus were totally unrelated to the White European Greeks.

    The claim that Europa originates in Phoenicia is woke retconning of real European history. In reality; the word has its origins in Franco-Celtic traditions. Songbird's Norman and Celtic ancestors all played a part in developing this mythos; he can tell you more about it.

    Replies: @songbird, @Emil Nikola Richard

    That data plot reminds of OJ Simpson’s blood splatter pattern expert witness.

    http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/Simpson/leetest.html

  17. @Wokechoke
    @RSDB

    Calvinist Much.

    Replies: @RSDB

    Calvinist None, I hope.

  18. @Yahya
    @songbird


    but according to this map, Greeks are more closely related to the French than to Turks:
     
    You are being deceitful by selecting France as the basis for comparison.

    Greeks are closer genetically to Turks than just about 90% of European populations.

    Though you may think they look "quite a bit different"; I'm willing to bet you'd have a hard time guessing the national origin of anonymous Greeks and Turks.

    More importantly for you; the Greeks are closer to Turks than to the Irish. That's why I will always get a chuckle when some goofball Irish-American retard takes pride in Alexander's conquests as if his people had anything to with it. But then again, most of your delusions give me a chuckle anyway, so it's hardly unique in that respect.

    Replies: @songbird, @Hapalong Cassidy

    Yet oddly enough, the Turkish language is more closely related to Korean than it is to any other European or Middle-Eastern language.

    • Replies: @Yevardian
    @Hapalong Cassidy

    A Germanic tongue was also native to Saint George Floyd .

    Speaking of the European Turkic brotherhood:
    https://www.turkicstates.org/assets/img/haberler/turk-konseyi-avrupa-temsilcilik-ofisi-acilis-toreni-ve-disisleri-bakanlari-toplantisi-budapestede-gerceklestirildi-1882-list.jpg

    @Yahya


    More importantly for you; the Greeks are closer to Turks than to the Irish. That’s why I will always get a chuckle when some goofball Irish-American retard takes pride in Alexander’s conquests as if his people had anything to with it.
     
    Has he actually though?
  19. @Wokechoke
    @songbird

    Send in Manstein and Guderian!

    Replies: @songbird, @AnonfromTN

    I honestly do think that the probability of the Poles annexing parts of Germany is pretty high in the timeframe of the next half century. They would need to have nukes though.


    Genetic distance depends on both the SNPs used and the specific individuals in the sample. That it differs very slightly between the two posts I have cited has no bearing on my point, which is that the genetic distance between Greeks and Turks is significant.

    [MORE]

    Am puzzled by why you can’t seem to accept this, even though you are not Turkish. Being open-minded and adaptable, I took it in stride, even though it went against my previous ideas. (I set aside phenotype)

    Had it not been for East Eurasian admixture; Turks would be almost identical to Greeks genetically.

    And there is the rub, and the source of the divisions. It is a pity that Constantinople fell. It would have prevented a lot of division and conflict, if its walls had stood.

    Deceit once again.

    Try to pick a different tagline. That one is already in use.

    Your “comebacks” get meeker

    Well, I’m trying to not be rude. (maybe, try it some time?)

    But suffice it to say that you don’t understand Irishmen, if, as you keep asserting, you think that I would need to have some distant, vicarious connection to other Europeans in order to feel superior. Rather, it would suffice that I am an Irishman.

    • Replies: @Yahya
    @songbird


    which is that the genetic distance between Greeks and Turks is significant.
     
    Not as significant as between Greeks and Irish though.

    Doesn’t stop you from thinking Alexander was one of yours.


    ut suffice it to say that you don’t understand Irishmen, if, as you keep asserting, you think that I would need to have some distant, vicarious connection to other Europeans in order to feel superior. Rather, it would suffice that I am an Irishman.
     
    Lol, you only ever mention your Irish heritage once every blue moon. It took me a whole year to find out about your Irish background. I bet many people here would not have known either, had I not called you a Celtic sack of shit some time ago.

    From how possessive you seem about Germany, opining constantly on their internal politics as if you were one of them, I thought you may actually be German. But no, it turns out you don’t have single ounce of German blood in you. You just LARP from your mother’s basement somewhere in New England.

    I remember a comical comment you made once, in the very early days, saying “It gets awfully tiresome, when for example you’re being called “white British” by colonists.”

    That’s when I knew you were a delusional nut. Your comments since then have only reinforced my impression.

    Replies: @Sher Singh, @songbird

    , @S
    @songbird

    Am curious, Songbird, are you familiar with the 1964 film Girl With Green Eyes?

    While the plot may be a bit lacking, something of what in Ireland might be seen as a 'D4' outlook towards Ireland and the Irish people I suppose, I find the many unrehearsed (relatively speaking) street and crowd scenes of interest as they are a snap-shot of Dublin at that time.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girl_with_Green_Eyes


    https://youtu.be/mBq4VDyJMkg




    https://youtu.be/9KYFna8cwsM

    Replies: @Another Polish Perspective, @songbird

  20. Zelenskyy requests a thousand tons of Sarin: was heard saying “Gas the Muscovites, Rashist War Now!” as Blinken and Austin sign off on the demand.

    • LOL: Mr. Hack
  21. @Yahya
    @songbird

    Deceit once again.

    1) The first map you linked to shows Turkish-Greek genetic distance (5) as being smaller than Greek-German (6). Now you shift around like a snake; linking to another Tweet.

    2) We were talking about the Irish, not Germans.

    3) Ancient Greeks were further from Germans in antiquity than today. Modern Greeks received 20-25% Slavic admixture following the fall of Byzantium; which pulled them towards Germany (itself a Slavic-mixed nation).

    4) Turks exhibit 12-20% East Eurasian admixture which pulls them away from Greeks. Since East Eurasian DNA is extremely distant from West Eurasian DNA; just a small pulse can dramatically shift Turks on the PCA. But even so, Turks are still closer to Greeks than the Irish (and every other N. European nation). In fact a substantial portion of Turks are in essence Turkified Greeks. Had it not been for East Eurasian admixture; Turks would be almost identical to Greeks genetically.

    5) The Irish have squat-all to do with Ancient Greece.

    So your efforts to "own" fail miserably once again; owing to your general incoherence and lack of honesty.

    Replies: @Wokechoke, @Finn, @Philip Owen, @Emil Nikola Richard

    The Celts sacked Greece.

  22. Gone but not forgotten –

    https://www.rt.com/russia/567410-monarchy-ukrainian-style-skoropadsky/

    What appear to be the first online available English translation of his edict for an All Russian Federation –

    https://www.eurasiareview.com/22052011-pavlo-skoropadsky-and-the-course-of-russian-ukrainian-relations-analysis/

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @Mikhail

    So what?

  23. Sher Singh says:

    They were ready to have Kyrie Irving lynched for daring to question the vaccine. They love objectively racist people like Hillary Clinton and Joe Biden. They are unwilling to share any of their wealth or power with non whites and they REALLY aren’t willing to allow non white children into their schools. They are certainly unwilling to intermarry with any non whites who aren’t fully deracinated. A huge part of their emotional attachment to Ukraine is because the Ukrainians are white.

    My entire family are white liberals and I can honestly say that these people really don’t like non whites that much. They might like them in the abstract but it is more a performative/religious thing for them then something that is a meaningful part of their daily life.

    Too much to unpack & anyway, doesn’t matter when they lose social status.
    ie their unwillingness to intermarry disappears as GAE power does.

    Surveys do show them being xenophillic, but they’re dogmatic in other ways (agree here).
    Overall, I just see them as an aging & decaying ‘tribe’ or ideology. :woman_shrugging: :crossed_swords:

    You don’t have to take my word for it, just bash white liberals or advocate a policy that will harm white liberals and watch them chimp out. It’s not about race, it’s about tribe.

    Sure, but bash them enough & they invite you to bed.

    • Replies: @Ivashka the fool
    @Sher Singh


    when they lose social status.
     
    They don't.

    Replies: @Sher Singh

  24. @Mikhail
    Gone but not forgotten -

    https://www.rt.com/russia/567410-monarchy-ukrainian-style-skoropadsky/

    What appear to be the first online available English translation of his edict for an All Russian Federation -

    https://www.eurasiareview.com/22052011-pavlo-skoropadsky-and-the-course-of-russian-ukrainian-relations-analysis/

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    So what?

  25. @Sher Singh

    They were ready to have Kyrie Irving lynched for daring to question the vaccine. They love objectively racist people like Hillary Clinton and Joe Biden. They are unwilling to share any of their wealth or power with non whites and they REALLY aren’t willing to allow non white children into their schools. They are certainly unwilling to intermarry with any non whites who aren’t fully deracinated. A huge part of their emotional attachment to Ukraine is because the Ukrainians are white.

    My entire family are white liberals and I can honestly say that these people really don’t like non whites that much. They might like them in the abstract but it is more a performative/religious thing for them then something that is a meaningful part of their daily life.
     

    Too much to unpack & anyway, doesn't matter when they lose social status.
    ie their unwillingness to intermarry disappears as GAE power does.

    Surveys do show them being xenophillic, but they're dogmatic in other ways (agree here).
    Overall, I just see them as an aging & decaying 'tribe' or ideology. :woman_shrugging: :crossed_swords:


    You don’t have to take my word for it, just bash white liberals or advocate a policy that will harm white liberals and watch them chimp out. It’s not about race, it’s about tribe.
     
    Sure, but bash them enough & they invite you to bed.

    Replies: @Ivashka the fool

    when they lose social status.

    They don’t.

    • Replies: @Sher Singh
    @Ivashka the fool

    Euros have been losing status since 9/11
    Losses in Afghanistan, BLM, Obama, India-China GDP rise

    Even Trump's idiocy destroys the ideal of White male leadership
    White liberals can't escape the destruction of whiteness they've orchestrated

    By whiteness I mean - Germano-Latin Chauvinism
    https://akarlin.com/struggle-europe-mankind/

    Sure, individually liberal signaling doesn't lower status but,
    The Taliban is making fun of the West on twitter while Trump's banned

    Kadyrov is winning accolades from Russians he ethnically cleansed in the 90s

    The wokes correctly describe reality more so than right-wing nationalists
    Doesn't mean you have to agree with their ideals

    2c

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rising_Tide_of_Color_Against_White_World-Supremacy

    Stoddard was an American Nordicist & already wrote about this in 1920s

    Replies: @Ivashka the fool, @Yevardian

  26. Response to from the other thread –

    No, I do think real love exists, although I don’t think it necessarily has to express itself in marriage or children. Marriage is a social institution, after all, although love is more likely to express itself in children.

    Thanks for your comment. The more I discuss this issue, the more my thoughts are beginning to coalesce around the issue of “contemplation” as one of the major ends of human life, and related to that, the issue of “leisure” as a legitimate goal in its own right, as the Greeks understood it.

    You make a good point that there are a number of professions which can be i
    satisfying, although most jobs in a modern economy aren’t, but I want to put forward the bold notion that contemplation and leisure are ultimately the highest kind of life there is – or at the very least, at least equal to the life of action.

    This startling contention completely reverses the modern scale of values, and yet all classic civilizations thought this way – modernity is the first civilization to think the life of action most valuable.

    So as I clarify my thoughts to myself, maybe I’m on this quixotic quest to restore contemplation and leisure to their rightful place on top of the hierarchy 🙂 Well, there are worse ways to tilt at windmills.

    And I suppose it depends on what you think of modernity – in my view, modernity is intensely nihilistic, and the nihilism of modern times seems to me a huge problem that needs to be overcome. I’m getting the sense you don’t see this issue as acutely as I do.

    And I think our nihilism has some kind of connection to privileging a life of action over contemplation and leisure, because it is through contemplation and leisure that one accesses the “unseen realm” that is the source of meaning in our life.

    You seem to hesitate to agree with me that modern life is characterized by materialism, but nothing seems plainer to me.

    Here is from a discussion of Aristotle on leisure –

    Leisure, unlike mere amusement, involves pleasure, happiness and living blessedly (1338a1). And this is not possible for those who are occupied (insofar as they are occupied) since occupations aim at some necessary end. So there should be education with a view to leisure, i.e, with a view to things done for their own sake. This, then, is the first distinction; insofar as work and leisure are both good, work is extrinsically good, while leisure is intrinsically good. Aristotle elaborates on this first distinction in the Nicomachean Ethics:

    Perhaps that provides the perfect conceptual category to shed light on our previous discussion over what constitutes “work” – I now realize that I had a sense that some forms of “effort” constitutes “work” and some didn’t, but I couldn’t fully articulate to myself why.

    But I like the idea that work is what we do to achieve some end but not for it’s own sake, while leisure activities are what we do for their own sake – activities that are intrinsically satisfying.

    In that sense, it’s easy to see why even the most satisfying professions are inferior to leisure activities, and this helps clarify how the focus on action and work is connected to modern nihilism – if we have lost touch with what is worthwhile for it’s own sake, we have lost touch with the sources of meaning.

    • Replies: @LatW
    @HeavilyMarbledSteak


    I do think real love exists, although I don’t think it necessarily has to express itself in marriage or children. Marriage is a social institution, after all, although love is more likely to express itself in children.
     
    Of course, love exists outside of marriage in many forms, but you said marriage is only either about "convenience", "satisfaction" or "following norms". To which I responded that marriage can also be "for love", but that's not the only place where love can exist, obviously. Whereas you tried to argue that all reasons for marriage or LTRs is something rather base or even primitive, thus devaluing it, so I felt the need to make an argument in favor of "romantic marriage". Marriage is above all a safe place for children, which I wouldn't say is a "selfish" goal either, as you seem to insinuate about social institutions in general.

    Btw, in traditional societies, marriage was not merely a "social institution", it was actually a religious, sanctified union. Including in pagan societies.


    The more I discuss this issue, the more my thoughts are beginning to coalesce around the issue of “contemplation” as one of the major ends of human life, and related to that, the issue of “leisure” as a legitimate goal in its own right, as the Greeks understood it.
     
    Now you are sounding as if you just want everyone to know that you're "leaving" this limited and narrow world or morality or something. As we agreed on the other thread, there is plentiful bounty in the wild, surely, one can sustain oneself "hunting and gathering" and then spend what's left of one's days in deep contemplation and leisure (good luck!). Is there anything or anyone that is holding you back from that? As I said, feel free! Off you go! Enjoy! I will even envy you a little.

    but I want to put forward the bold notion that contemplation and leisure are ultimately the highest kind of life there is – or at the very least, at least equal to the life of action.
     
    Why do you keep placing "contemplation" and "leisure" together as if they are one or even close in meaning, when in most traditions contemplation is considered work and training of the mind? Of course, one might need a kind of a "leisurely" setting for that, but those are not the same things or even related. Think of the classic statute "The Thinker" - does that look like leisure to you? :)

    modernity is intensely nihilistic, and the nihilism of modern times seems to me a huge problem that needs to be overcome. I’m getting the sense you don’t see this issue as acutely as I do.
     
    I understand what you are saying very well. Maybe I do not fear this nihilism as much as you do. Maybe I have internalized it more and know how to handle it.

    You seem to hesitate to agree with me that modern life is characterized by materialism, but nothing seems plainer to me.
     
    I simply do not believe that a human being is a slave to society. It is in our nature to constantly reflect, so are aware of this and can act. You seem to talk about it almost as if "there is no way out". As if we are slaves to this system. When in fact so many people have bailed what you call "the rat race". Certainly, I wouldn't say there is a shortage of people these days who have chosen to take on as little responsibility as possible so as to insulate themselves from any kind of burdensome relationships or obligations or risk of painful experiences (or to engage only in the very minimum in the safest possible way, or what's worse, only take from others but refuse to give - thankfully, that usually doesn't go very far).

    It doesn't mean I have not felt the pain of this materialism, that you allude to, can cause (in EE we felt great pain because of this), maybe I am jus stronger than you and do not fear it as much or let if affect me as much. Since I have a way out through my religion anyway, I can always cushion myself in the ancestral embrace.

    Besides, all earthly beings are somehow tied to the material. In my ancestral worldview, the material is tied to the aesthetic aspects of human life without which life would be empty and to the chthonic forces of the Earth that nourishes us.

    Even those Japanese temples, no matter how discreet and ascetic, in a way have a "materialistic" dimension that tie the aesthetic to the spiritual. This is necessary to welcome those who seek spiritual nourishment.

    And, of course, this doesn't mean I accept or agree with everything about how the Western economic system is structured, or with needlessly excessive materialistic lifestyles. But why should I deny enjoyment of the material? A responsible human being must know how to control these things in their life as to not engage in harmful things or cause harm to others.


    Here is from a discussion of Aristotle on leisure
     
    In his book, Aristotle attempts to address most aspects of human life, in a practical way. Thus, he will touch upon leisure as well but it doesn't constitute the bulk of his teachings, nor does he zero in on it and it is definitely not something he "prizes above all else". So it is questionable whether "Greeks prized leisure above all", as you said in the previous thread, to which I responded: "The Greeks prized arete the most". I will not impose this opinion, since there are several Greek schools and I don't want to impose my surely limited perception and understanding.

    It is, of course, true that they prized "contemplation". As I mentioned before, the highest goal is eudaimonia (happiness or sublime welbeing). Aristotle's ethics are character ethics so the biggest focus is on practical things such as arete (striving for excellence) and practical wisdom (phronesis). The latter in particular requires "work".

    But we can look at other Greek schools and we'll find other things that may match your outlook better, maybe Epicurus (who, by the way, is not to be taken literally)?

    Anywa, I don't want to impose my worldview, I like to keep an open mind. I hope I do not come off as too categorical or judgy.

    Replies: @HeavilyMarbledSteak

  27. Response to from the other thread –

    If anything, contemplation (and the leisure needed for it) was more emphasized in the Christian scale of values than in the Greek – it staggers me that you can say otherwise. The Desert Fathers, monasteries, and hermits, were more emphatically leisure and contemplation based institutions than even the ancient Greek philosophical schools which prized leisure (it is modernity, which was the breakup of Christianity, which ushered in the era of “work” – where our life is structured not around things we do for their own sake but things we do for the sake of some end).

    But perhaps the issue can be clarified by recourse to Aristotle’s distinction between work and leisure, described above.

    Of course, there were hard working aristocrats, obviously, but if we are going to contrast the aristocratic attitude towards life with that of the bourgeois, then it is best to sketch their distinctive features, not commonalities.

    It is generally recognized that the advent of the bourgeois represented a new category of person with a new attitude to life, and the bourgeois has been studied extensively for that reason. I hope you’re not gonna deny even this, you madman, AP 🙂

    And the bourgeois attitude to life – which is coterminous with the advent of modernity – is that life should be structured around “work”, that is, activities for some end, rather than activities we do for their own sake.

    Now, certainly the aristocratic life contained “work” in this sense too, but being much freer from the burdens of needing to make a living, there was much more emphasis on intrinsically satisfying activities. In addition, being at the summit – like God – engendered a value system which prized effortless perfection, not striving, which implies lack. Perfection does not strive. Of course, this attitude was often just a stylish veneer, and imperfectly realized, but it was a genuine aristocratic conceit to present themselves as “perfect” (this conceit was very pronounced in China, which led to some very tragic consequences for them when they encountered the West.). So there was this “anti-striver” culture.

    As for the less salubrious and more sordid aspects of aristocratic life that I sketched in my other comment, there is simply too much documentary evidence for even you to pretend otherwise – although considering your complete evisceration of Christianity, I probably shouldn’t set any boundaries on what you’re prepared to deny 🙂

    I’d recommend starting by picking up Jacob Burckhardts book on the Italian Renaissance.

    Back to the question of nihilism, it’s becoming clearer why the advent of the bourgeois coincided with the rise in nihilism – “work” is a focus on building up the physical world – APs hospitals, schools, factories, cities, and general “complex” civilization – i.e, it is activity with an end in view, however the sources of meaning in human life are actions that are intrinsically worthwhile and done for no other end.

    The purest expression of this would be contemplation and the life of leisure that implies, but going out to nature, hiking, music, art, poetry, dancing, philosophy (perhaps some kinds), literature, would be included.

    Of course AP, I’d agree with you that building up the physical world has some value, but when you make that the primary focus of life – as you do, of course – you court nihilism.

    As I said in the other thread, AP, you imagine yourself a positive force in the world, but you are in fact a dark agent of entropy and an agent of the modern crisis of meaning 🙂

    • Replies: @AP
    @HeavilyMarbledSteak


    If anything, contemplation (and the leisure needed for it) was more emphasized in the Christian scale of values than in the Greek
     
    Utter nonsense. You are aping the sort of anti-Christian propaganda told by Bolsheviks or those like them. Remember when I posted the parable for you, about returning God’s gifts rather than doing nothing with them? To quote the Orthodox aristocrat Berdyaev, who despises bourgeois such as you (I think he was a bit unfair towards them):

    “ The Greco-Roman civilization, aristocratic in its very principles, despised work and looked upon it as the portion of the slaves; it is only since Christianity, since the Gospel, that work and those who do it have been sanctified. Christ l himself worked: “The labourer is worthy of his hire.” The parables concerning the talents and the vineyard speak of human labour, of human activity, of human creative gifts: man must return his talents multiplied to God (Matt, xxv, 14-30; xxi, 28-31). The activity of man must be fruitful; he is told to till the soil; he must return increased all that he has received. Nowhere does the Gospel justify passivity. Christianity established the dignity of every man, ‘fashioned in God’s image and after his likeness,’ and it opens an endless vista of perfection, a perfection not only of individuals but of social meaning. Christianity affirms that man is a spiritual being, and spirit is ever active; that is the definition of spirit. Matter is passive and inert. A spiritual being cannot but strive towards eternity, perfection, the fullness of life, and such a striving implies movement, dynamic development, activity.”

    The Desert Fathers, monasteries, and hermits, were more emphatically leisure and contemplation
     
    They worked hard in active prayer and other activities. Have you ever visited a Christian monastery? And of course in addition to praying they were building hospitals, transcribing books (incredibly time-consuming activity), tilling soil, feeding the hungry, healing the sick, etc. And in line with the Christian view of the world they were also focused on ways of harnessing the natural world through tinkering with a perpetual motion machine, alchemical experiments, etc. The scientific method came from devout Churchmen.

    And the bourgeois attitude to life – which is coterminous with the advent of modernity – is that life should be structured around “work”, that is, activities for some end, rather than activities we do for their own sake

     

    Here you are correct. The problem is that you, who are thoroughly bourgeois, believes that work is something that can only be done for some end. That nobody can possibly do work for its own sake or for anything other than raw material benefit (such as love, or inner sense of honor and duty). So you reject work, but have failed to escape your bourgeois nature.

    A bourgeois, like you, who doesn’t work in still a bourgeois, he’s just a self-indulgent and lazy one.

    So you try to deny your bourgeois nature by choosing not to work, and to live off others’ labor without laboring yourself. You engage in self-indulgence in nature, an act of consumption, and dare to compare yourself to ancient monks, an example of the status-seeking and striving that you as a bourgeois cannot escape. And arrogance.

    I’d recommend starting by picking up Jacob Burckhardts book on the Italian Renaissance
     
    Unlike you I don’t need books to know about aristocratic values and lifestyle.

    APs hospitals, schools, factories, cities, and general “complex” civilization – i.e, it is activity with an end in view
     
    It is the goal-directed and forward-focused nature of Christianity that inspires the need for development and improvement. It is what differentiates Christendom from other civilisations and explains it’s spectacular rise in this world.

    You are really lost in your materialism if you think that there is nothing in the building of hospitals and schools, creation of sanitary sewer systems, healing of the sick, technological inventions to improve all these things, other than a wish to get rich or to get status. I guess it’s a confession that if you did these things this is what would have motivated you. What emptiness and poverty.

    The purest expression of this would be contemplation and the life of leisure that implies, but going out to nature, hiking, music, art, poetry, dancing, philosophy (perhaps some kinds), literature
     
    You are the type of bourgeois who finds meaning in consumption rather than production. Which makes you a worse kind of bourgeois.

    Of course AP, I’d agree with you that building up the physical world has some value, but when you make that the primary focus of life
     
    What you fail to understand is that the meaning behind building up the physical world is what matters when determining whether or not someone is bourgeois. But that even if they are - the nice thing about the capitalist system is that within it such people’s bad instincts (striving, greed) are harnessed and used for good ends. Whereas otherwise such sins (which are universal) are not. Better for a greedy person to express his greed by working harder and producing something useful, and using the money he makes to buy someone’s attention than to express his greed by raiding a neighbor’s hut and taking his livestock and women. Or snitching on his neighbor to get him sent to a gulag and taking his apartment.

    Replies: @Wokechoke, @HeavilyMarbledSteak

  28. Response to APP from OT206:

    https://www.unz.com/akarlin/open-thread-206/#comment-5775006

    arguments are based on EU or ECHR jurisprudence. It is a much bigger problem in Germany than in Poland actually, where there is absolutely no deference to international law INSIDE Germany: Bundesverfassungsgericht has an unofficial doctrine of the primacy of the German law over ECHR or EU law.

    A rather good point about an area where the EU fails miserably.

    The Union is supposed to be a collection of sovereign equals. Thus, it should be clear that all nations (not just Germany) have national courts as a check on EU over reach. Somehow, this necessity has been lost in many nations. Even after Brexit, the UK is still trying to escape this trap.

    constitutional courts can often nullify a law (such is a case in Poland, Germany and Israel at least) if they deem it “unconstitutional”, effectively resulting by the rule of judges: it is sometimes called “judical activism”. That is often a matter of judges fancy or political stance, since it is easy to find anything within the very broad statements of constitution.

    Israel has unique problems.

    The current “temporary” judicial structure was set up to last until a full Constitution was established. However, that never happened. Therefore, the temporary arrangement has lasted decades.

    While allowing judges to select their replacements seemed reasonable in a temporary body, it creates catastrophic problem for the long term. The far-left picked the original judges, who then picked additional left judges. The whole body no longer represents anything even vaguely resembling the people of Israel. It has become an antique.

    The current reforms establish Knesset oversight power to rein in poor decisions. And, it will create a new selection process for filling vacancies. The court will eventually be dragged kicking and screaming back to concepts like judicial restraint.

    Moreover, those judges are not democratically elected, so even if you win elections, judges can hamper your agenda.

    I concur.

    We saw this problem in the U.S. a few years ago. Delusional #NeverTrump extremists were irrationally angry at Trump for being hampered by SCOTUS.

    The solution is winning multiple election cycles in both the Presidency and the Senate so that over time MAGA judges begin to fill the judiciary. Declaring total surrender to run a NeoCon, anti-MAGA candidate is foolish. Yet, some short sighted individuals are set on this path to 100% certain failure.

    1) a lot of young people emigrated to EU and will probably not come back – you could say this prepared way to emigration to Poland of Ukrainians (and their “work” visas did not allow for Schengen travel, so they were “encouraged” to stay in Poland too). The initial process of mass emigration FROM Poland was a kind of grooming Poland for accepting immigration in this way.

    Intra-EU migration wrecked family formation, which had a knock on impact on child birth rates. Poland was not the only donor nation. Others were also drained. Acquiring a reasonable number of Christian new comers that can assimilate is the best response as long as Schengen exists.

    Internal migration also wrecked earning power of native citizens in the recipient nations. The idea of mass relocation for work empowers MegaCorporations at the expense of the people. Employment related Schengen needs to end.

    Yet another reason why the EU needs to be dissolved.

    PEACE 😇

    • Replies: @Another Polish Perspective
    @A123


    Poland was not the only donor nation. Others were also drained. Acquiring a reasonable number of Christian new comers that can assimilate is the best response as long as Schengen exists.
     
    I think Poland and Romania were drained the most. Surprisingly, the Czechs and Hungarians weren't so eager to emigrate. I once talked about this with Czechs, and the answers were like "You know, we Czechs do not like travel far away and we like our country". They weren't "economy is great in Czechia". So this has something to do with cultural climate too, like constantly depicting Poland as faulty, inefficient country in the need of reform just before Polish accession to EU. Poles who who emigrated with buying real estate abroad sometimes regret it now, being surprised how fast Poland has been changing - so they probably expected that Poland would not change, which was true for long time for Polish emigrants from communist Poland, of course.

    Pushing mainly Ukrainians into Poland (but not providing repatriation programs for Polish minority in the East, or trying to bring back Poles from the West) is not entirely good - there is a sea of blood between us. By their mass immigration, the memory of that troubled past can be always recreated: this is a potential danger. It is like pushing upon you this Christian LOVE FOR YOUR ENEMEY, BUT ONLY FOR YOUR ENEMY. This is a bit twisted, I would say.

    Replies: @A123

    , @Another Polish Perspective
    @A123


    The Union is supposed to be a collection of sovereign equals. Thus, it should be clear that all nations (not just Germany) have national courts as a check on EU over reach. Somehow, this necessity has been lost in many nations. Even after Brexit, the UK is still trying to escape this trap.
     
    I don't know man... This is elite problem - you will never see a normal person having any personal experience with this, like saying "I lost because the court ignored our national laws in favour of ECHR jurisprudence". It never happens. The media are constantly aroused by this, so you think it is real, but really it isn't.
    A normal person will have most likely the opposite problem - that ECHR jurisprudence, which is on his side, will be ignored. Such people you will surely meet. In case of Germany, which presents itself as ultra-European this is especially "in your face" arrogance. BTW, Germany respects ECHR refugee-jurisprudence, but other than that - not so much.

    From my experience with courts, the civil law legal rule of "free assessments of evidence and proof" is a source of many evils. Because of it, you are actually at judge's grace, like in feudalism. How often I have heard in court reports "Our evidence has not been taken into account" etc. So evil is that, that I would even replace it with stare decisis of common law.

    Replies: @A123

  29. Sher Singh says:
    @Ivashka the fool
    @Sher Singh


    when they lose social status.
     
    They don't.

    Replies: @Sher Singh

    Euros have been losing status since 9/11
    Losses in Afghanistan, BLM, Obama, India-China GDP rise

    Even Trump’s idiocy destroys the ideal of White male leadership
    White liberals can’t escape the destruction of whiteness they’ve orchestrated

    By whiteness I mean – Germano-Latin Chauvinism
    https://akarlin.com/struggle-europe-mankind/

    Sure, individually liberal signaling doesn’t lower status but,
    The Taliban is making fun of the West on twitter while Trump’s banned

    Kadyrov is winning accolades from Russians he ethnically cleansed in the 90s

    The wokes correctly describe reality more so than right-wing nationalists
    Doesn’t mean you have to agree with their ideals

    2c

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rising_Tide_of_Color_Against_White_World-Supremacy

    Stoddard was an American Nordicist & already wrote about this in 1920s

    • Replies: @Ivashka the fool
    @Sher Singh

    True power is economic and financial. Marx was right about that. Basis and superstructure. I will know they are losing power when I will see them begging in the streets. Not losing my breath waiting though.

    https://youtu.be/NgbqXsA62Qs

    This guy barely scratched the surface. It was a mandatory watching I imposed the kids when they reached 14 years old. The only change in the last decade was an even more marked financial power concentration and even more marked decoupling of the 0.1% from the rest of us. Everything else is woodoo doll and needle type of thing. Distractions. Not really important. That is why we can discuss it freely here. Tell me more about Jats and their continuous connections to the Harappan civilization please !

    🙂

    Replies: @Sher Singh, @S, @S

    , @Yevardian
    @Sher Singh


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rising_Tide_of_Color_Against_White_World-Supremacy
     
    Stoddard was a great writer but imo it's his least interesting book. But maybe I only feel that way because what he wrote about then is now so blindingly obvious.

    Everybody should check out his books on 'Present Day Europe', 'Nazi Germany Today (Into the Darkness' and 'Racial Realities in Europe'. The last one revolves around the now extremely dated triad of Nordics/Alpines/Meds, but that's exactly why it should be read as an antidote to people who obsessively focus on similar topics today, without necessarily understanding the science behind it. And of course its much more enjoyable prose to read than anime avatars on twitter posting contextless gene percentages.

    Still, I'm sure Sinkh implictly understands the end of White World Supremacy means making the world an objectively worse place for everyone, but I'm equally sure that 'revenge' (in reality I'm quite sure another Afghan/Iranian dynasty would have crushed the Marathas and Sikhs, as always happened) trumps prosperity for people like him.

    Replies: @songbird, @Sher Singh

  30. @A123
    Response to APP from OT206:

    https://www.unz.com/akarlin/open-thread-206/#comment-5775006


    arguments are based on EU or ECHR jurisprudence. It is a much bigger problem in Germany than in Poland actually, where there is absolutely no deference to international law INSIDE Germany: Bundesverfassungsgericht has an unofficial doctrine of the primacy of the German law over ECHR or EU law.
     
    A rather good point about an area where the EU fails miserably.

    The Union is supposed to be a collection of sovereign equals. Thus, it should be clear that all nations (not just Germany) have national courts as a check on EU over reach. Somehow, this necessity has been lost in many nations. Even after Brexit, the UK is still trying to escape this trap.


    constitutional courts can often nullify a law (such is a case in Poland, Germany and Israel at least) if they deem it “unconstitutional”, effectively resulting by the rule of judges: it is sometimes called “judical activism”. That is often a matter of judges fancy or political stance, since it is easy to find anything within the very broad statements of constitution.
     
    Israel has unique problems.

    The current "temporary" judicial structure was set up to last until a full Constitution was established. However, that never happened. Therefore, the temporary arrangement has lasted decades.

    While allowing judges to select their replacements seemed reasonable in a temporary body, it creates catastrophic problem for the long term. The far-left picked the original judges, who then picked additional left judges. The whole body no longer represents anything even vaguely resembling the people of Israel. It has become an antique.

    The current reforms establish Knesset oversight power to rein in poor decisions. And, it will create a new selection process for filling vacancies. The court will eventually be dragged kicking and screaming back to concepts like judicial restraint.


    Moreover, those judges are not democratically elected, so even if you win elections, judges can hamper your agenda.
     
    I concur.

    We saw this problem in the U.S. a few years ago. Delusional #NeverTrump extremists were irrationally angry at Trump for being hampered by SCOTUS.

    The solution is winning multiple election cycles in both the Presidency and the Senate so that over time MAGA judges begin to fill the judiciary. Declaring total surrender to run a NeoCon, anti-MAGA candidate is foolish. Yet, some short sighted individuals are set on this path to 100% certain failure.


    1) a lot of young people emigrated to EU and will probably not come back – you could say this prepared way to emigration to Poland of Ukrainians (and their “work” visas did not allow for Schengen travel, so they were “encouraged” to stay in Poland too). The initial process of mass emigration FROM Poland was a kind of grooming Poland for accepting immigration in this way.
     
    Intra-EU migration wrecked family formation, which had a knock on impact on child birth rates. Poland was not the only donor nation. Others were also drained. Acquiring a reasonable number of Christian new comers that can assimilate is the best response as long as Schengen exists.

    Internal migration also wrecked earning power of native citizens in the recipient nations. The idea of mass relocation for work empowers MegaCorporations at the expense of the people. Employment related Schengen needs to end.

    Yet another reason why the EU needs to be dissolved.

    PEACE 😇

    Replies: @Another Polish Perspective, @Another Polish Perspective

    Poland was not the only donor nation. Others were also drained. Acquiring a reasonable number of Christian new comers that can assimilate is the best response as long as Schengen exists.

    I think Poland and Romania were drained the most. Surprisingly, the Czechs and Hungarians weren’t so eager to emigrate. I once talked about this with Czechs, and the answers were like “You know, we Czechs do not like travel far away and we like our country”. They weren’t “economy is great in Czechia”. So this has something to do with cultural climate too, like constantly depicting Poland as faulty, inefficient country in the need of reform just before Polish accession to EU. Poles who who emigrated with buying real estate abroad sometimes regret it now, being surprised how fast Poland has been changing – so they probably expected that Poland would not change, which was true for long time for Polish emigrants from communist Poland, of course.

    Pushing mainly Ukrainians into Poland (but not providing repatriation programs for Polish minority in the East, or trying to bring back Poles from the West) is not entirely good – there is a sea of blood between us. By their mass immigration, the memory of that troubled past can be always recreated: this is a potential danger. It is like pushing upon you this Christian LOVE FOR YOUR ENEMEY, BUT ONLY FOR YOUR ENEMY. This is a bit twisted, I would say.

    • Replies: @A123
    @Another Polish Perspective


    I think Poland and Romania were drained the most.
     
    I believe the Baltics were also hammered. While the total count may be lower, the % was high.

    It is like pushing upon you this Christian LOVE FOR YOUR ENEMY, BUT ONLY FOR YOUR ENEMY. This is a bit twisted, I would say.
     
    It is twisted, and 100% non-Christian.

    Pope Muhammad Francis of Islam is an enemy of Jesus Christ. The German "Welcome Rape-ugees" churches are also failed institutions. There are others.

    The disconnect between Jesus and supposedly Christian churches is indeed troubling.

    PEACE 😇
  31. @Sher Singh
    @Ivashka the fool

    Euros have been losing status since 9/11
    Losses in Afghanistan, BLM, Obama, India-China GDP rise

    Even Trump's idiocy destroys the ideal of White male leadership
    White liberals can't escape the destruction of whiteness they've orchestrated

    By whiteness I mean - Germano-Latin Chauvinism
    https://akarlin.com/struggle-europe-mankind/

    Sure, individually liberal signaling doesn't lower status but,
    The Taliban is making fun of the West on twitter while Trump's banned

    Kadyrov is winning accolades from Russians he ethnically cleansed in the 90s

    The wokes correctly describe reality more so than right-wing nationalists
    Doesn't mean you have to agree with their ideals

    2c

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rising_Tide_of_Color_Against_White_World-Supremacy

    Stoddard was an American Nordicist & already wrote about this in 1920s

    Replies: @Ivashka the fool, @Yevardian

    True power is economic and financial. Marx was right about that. Basis and superstructure. I will know they are losing power when I will see them begging in the streets. Not losing my breath waiting though.

    This guy barely scratched the surface. It was a mandatory watching I imposed the kids when they reached 14 years old. The only change in the last decade was an even more marked financial power concentration and even more marked decoupling of the 0.1% from the rest of us. Everything else is woodoo doll and needle type of thing. Distractions. Not really important. That is why we can discuss it freely here. Tell me more about Jats and their continuous connections to the Harappan civilization please !

    🙂

    • Replies: @Sher Singh
    @Ivashka the fool

    You don't carry weapons & you eat beef.
    You're a savage beneath a Dalit, and I'm not gonna take nor answer you seriously.

    When you man up, and display conduct fitting a human we can discuss Dharma.

    https://twitter.com/Kharagket/status/1105167528882589698
    ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫਤਹਿ

    Replies: @Ivashka the fool

    , @S
    @Ivashka the fool


    True power is economic and financial...I will know they are losing power when I will see them begging in the streets. Not losing my breath waiting though.

    This guy barely scratched the surface...The only change in the last decade was an even more marked financial power concentration and even more marked decoupling of the 0.1% from the rest of us.
     
    I agree with you. Despite appearances otherwise at times, they in reality go from strength to strength.
    , @S
    @Ivashka the fool

    You had asked on a previous post about what was driving mass immigration in to Europe.

    Below is an excerpt from pg 4 of an Oct, 2003 academic paper, which in part examined how corrupt elites and hangers on, either of one's own people and, or, alien, have historically been making a pretty penny from the value of the labor they are systematically stealing from the exploited 'immigrants' as wage slaves, and in turn use these same exploited people in a cynical divide and rule scheme against the non-exploiting general public, the vast majority.

    '...the immigrants usually serve three main functions: cheap labor to replace native groups; settlement on the frontier (periphery); and control over the natives and their land. These dynamics generally result in the maintenance of hegemony...'

    The failure to have dealt with chattel slavery and it's trade in a truthful manner in the 19th century by abolishing it as claimed, but instead to have monetized it with the introduction of wage slavery, ie specifically the so called 'cheap labor'/'mass immigration' system, has been a catastrophe of unprecedented proportions for the peoples of the world and for humanity as a whole.

    Actually truly caring about one's people, though ultimately edifying for all concerned, can be a pain in the arse at times. It's a lot easier, not to mention much more profitable, this way.

    Did I mention much more profitable?

    https://www.academia.edu/27219183/Between_urban_and_national_Political_mobilization_among_Mizrahim_in_Israel_s_development_towns_

    Replies: @Ivashka the fool, @S

  32. Sea of Azov has a 4 km long outlet.

    Three Gorges Dam is 2.2 km long. Cost about $37 billion, or if you don’t count power gen and pop resettlement about $18.4 billion.

  33. @A123
    Response to APP from OT206:

    https://www.unz.com/akarlin/open-thread-206/#comment-5775006


    arguments are based on EU or ECHR jurisprudence. It is a much bigger problem in Germany than in Poland actually, where there is absolutely no deference to international law INSIDE Germany: Bundesverfassungsgericht has an unofficial doctrine of the primacy of the German law over ECHR or EU law.
     
    A rather good point about an area where the EU fails miserably.

    The Union is supposed to be a collection of sovereign equals. Thus, it should be clear that all nations (not just Germany) have national courts as a check on EU over reach. Somehow, this necessity has been lost in many nations. Even after Brexit, the UK is still trying to escape this trap.


    constitutional courts can often nullify a law (such is a case in Poland, Germany and Israel at least) if they deem it “unconstitutional”, effectively resulting by the rule of judges: it is sometimes called “judical activism”. That is often a matter of judges fancy or political stance, since it is easy to find anything within the very broad statements of constitution.
     
    Israel has unique problems.

    The current "temporary" judicial structure was set up to last until a full Constitution was established. However, that never happened. Therefore, the temporary arrangement has lasted decades.

    While allowing judges to select their replacements seemed reasonable in a temporary body, it creates catastrophic problem for the long term. The far-left picked the original judges, who then picked additional left judges. The whole body no longer represents anything even vaguely resembling the people of Israel. It has become an antique.

    The current reforms establish Knesset oversight power to rein in poor decisions. And, it will create a new selection process for filling vacancies. The court will eventually be dragged kicking and screaming back to concepts like judicial restraint.


    Moreover, those judges are not democratically elected, so even if you win elections, judges can hamper your agenda.
     
    I concur.

    We saw this problem in the U.S. a few years ago. Delusional #NeverTrump extremists were irrationally angry at Trump for being hampered by SCOTUS.

    The solution is winning multiple election cycles in both the Presidency and the Senate so that over time MAGA judges begin to fill the judiciary. Declaring total surrender to run a NeoCon, anti-MAGA candidate is foolish. Yet, some short sighted individuals are set on this path to 100% certain failure.


    1) a lot of young people emigrated to EU and will probably not come back – you could say this prepared way to emigration to Poland of Ukrainians (and their “work” visas did not allow for Schengen travel, so they were “encouraged” to stay in Poland too). The initial process of mass emigration FROM Poland was a kind of grooming Poland for accepting immigration in this way.
     
    Intra-EU migration wrecked family formation, which had a knock on impact on child birth rates. Poland was not the only donor nation. Others were also drained. Acquiring a reasonable number of Christian new comers that can assimilate is the best response as long as Schengen exists.

    Internal migration also wrecked earning power of native citizens in the recipient nations. The idea of mass relocation for work empowers MegaCorporations at the expense of the people. Employment related Schengen needs to end.

    Yet another reason why the EU needs to be dissolved.

    PEACE 😇

    Replies: @Another Polish Perspective, @Another Polish Perspective

    The Union is supposed to be a collection of sovereign equals. Thus, it should be clear that all nations (not just Germany) have national courts as a check on EU over reach. Somehow, this necessity has been lost in many nations. Even after Brexit, the UK is still trying to escape this trap.

    I don’t know man… This is elite problem – you will never see a normal person having any personal experience with this, like saying “I lost because the court ignored our national laws in favour of ECHR jurisprudence”. It never happens. The media are constantly aroused by this, so you think it is real, but really it isn’t.
    A normal person will have most likely the opposite problem – that ECHR jurisprudence, which is on his side, will be ignored. Such people you will surely meet. In case of Germany, which presents itself as ultra-European this is especially “in your face” arrogance. BTW, Germany respects ECHR refugee-jurisprudence, but other than that – not so much.

    From my experience with courts, the civil law legal rule of “free assessments of evidence and proof” is a source of many evils. Because of it, you are actually at judge’s grace, like in feudalism. How often I have heard in court reports “Our evidence has not been taken into account” etc. So evil is that, that I would even replace it with stare decisis of common law.

    • Replies: @A123
    @Another Polish Perspective


    I don’t know man… This is elite problem – you will never see a normal person having any personal experience with this, like saying “I lost because the court ignored our national laws in favour of ECHR jurisprudence”.
     
    I seem to recall the ECHR sanctioning a woman for telling the truth -- Muhammad raped Aisha when she was 9. Though that may have been a different European court. The ECHR intervened to stop the UK's "Stay in Africa" plan. This places huge number of Brits at risk of violent crime.

    Yes. Few individuals make it before high courts. However, their judicial action (and inaction) has huge consequences on many individuals. For example, tens of millions of weapons will made theoretically illegal if SCOTUS does not intervene on the subject of "wrist braces".

    PEACE 😇

    Replies: @Another Polish Perspective

  34. @Wokechoke
    @songbird

    Send in Manstein and Guderian!

    Replies: @songbird, @AnonfromTN

    Germans did, about 80 years ago. We all know how it ended for Germany.

  35. @Another Polish Perspective
    @A123


    Poland was not the only donor nation. Others were also drained. Acquiring a reasonable number of Christian new comers that can assimilate is the best response as long as Schengen exists.
     
    I think Poland and Romania were drained the most. Surprisingly, the Czechs and Hungarians weren't so eager to emigrate. I once talked about this with Czechs, and the answers were like "You know, we Czechs do not like travel far away and we like our country". They weren't "economy is great in Czechia". So this has something to do with cultural climate too, like constantly depicting Poland as faulty, inefficient country in the need of reform just before Polish accession to EU. Poles who who emigrated with buying real estate abroad sometimes regret it now, being surprised how fast Poland has been changing - so they probably expected that Poland would not change, which was true for long time for Polish emigrants from communist Poland, of course.

    Pushing mainly Ukrainians into Poland (but not providing repatriation programs for Polish minority in the East, or trying to bring back Poles from the West) is not entirely good - there is a sea of blood between us. By their mass immigration, the memory of that troubled past can be always recreated: this is a potential danger. It is like pushing upon you this Christian LOVE FOR YOUR ENEMEY, BUT ONLY FOR YOUR ENEMY. This is a bit twisted, I would say.

    Replies: @A123

    I think Poland and Romania were drained the most.

    I believe the Baltics were also hammered. While the total count may be lower, the % was high.

    It is like pushing upon you this Christian LOVE FOR YOUR ENEMY, BUT ONLY FOR YOUR ENEMY. This is a bit twisted, I would say.

    It is twisted, and 100% non-Christian.

    Pope Muhammad Francis of Islam is an enemy of Jesus Christ. The German “Welcome Rape-ugees” churches are also failed institutions. There are others.

    The disconnect between Jesus and supposedly Christian churches is indeed troubling.

    PEACE 😇

  36. Iraqi Information Minister reviews
    One Nation Under Blackmail
    Whitney Webb
    Trine Day; 2022
    2 volumes; 532pp + 418pp

    This is everything one needs to know in order to make sense of the Jeffrey Epstein Ghislaine Maxwell caper according to independent journalist Whitney Webb. It’s worth reading most of it although reading every line cover to cover would be an enormous task and I did not do that. Tactical skimming is maybe a requirement.

    If you are a politics nerd there might be nothing new here at all. She didn’t wear out any shoes running around collecting first hand accounts and she does not identify any previously unknown whistleblowers. What she has done is review as much published information as possible and I definitely learned many things which seem to be obscure. Reliability of these is debatable.

    In descending order of importance.

    1. The Iran Contra Arms Hostages scandal of the 1980’s is a misnomer. It would be far more accurate to call that CIA Arms Cocaine Money Laundering Sex Traffic Loose End that somehow partly made it into the public. William Casey and Oliver North were merely high level participants and by no means the ones calling the shots. Those guys know who they are but remain unnamed. Other high level participants with large roles were Robert Maxwell and Adnan Koshogghi and Robert Keith Gray. The last guy who I had never heard of is the man on the cover with Casey and Cohn that nobody recognizes. This guy:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Keith_Gray

    The most nefarious item on that page is that Gray was a closeted homo.

    2. The Chinese money guys that subsidize the Clintons are small arms manufacturers. They made their fortune selling AK47’s and hand grenades and bullets to both sides during the massive and long Iraq Iran war. Webb opines that the genesis of the Chinese manufacturing complex that dominates today’s world economy was precisely this episode. These Chinese arms were the big payload for the Casey-North-Maxwell-Koshogghi-Gray project and the cocaine and sex slaves were merely side projects. If your interest and exposure to this resembles my own, your eyes will glaze over long before you get to the end of the evidence Webb provides for this angle of her presentation. This is all part of the 500 pages of required background even before we arrive to the arrival of Jeffrey Epstein to the insides of this very long story.

    3. Leslie Wexner is the successor to Meyer Lansky. He is the finance guy who manages the Mob profits from drugs, gambling, labor union racketeering, government fraud, sex slaves, &c. By this point he is probably as rich as Gates and Buffett put together. He is the main Jew Israel Mossad backer on planet earth.

    4. Air America which rose to notoriety flying heroin from Thailand to North America has been renamed three or four times already. It is now operated out of Leslie Wexner’s private Akron airport hangers. Here is the source of the fascination Epstein and aviation. They made as much money smuggling Chinese machine guns and ammo as they ever made on coke.

    5. The way these guys stay out of jail and beyond the reach of the law is they own the law. Specifically a large percentage of top law enforcement officials are perverts, thieves, murderers, blackmailers, and more and the evidence of this is in video, audio, and other documentation in the possession of all the major global powers and their spy agencies. This practice was perfected by Meyer Lansky, Roy Cohn, and J. Edgar Hoover whose most important control files were on one another. This is the secret society with the most power of all.

    5b. Roy Cohn was somewhere between Donald Trump’s mentor and soul mate.

    6. Jeff Epstein is merely one more (er, 5 or 6 more) chapter in this depressing saga. His fatal flaw was the tabloids loved publicizing photos of him and his sexy ornaments and he didn’t take sufficient precautions to discourage this. Maybe the glamor attraction provided him with essential business assets and the problem had no work-around

    I could go on and on and on like Whitney Webb did but I will make some short meta commentary.

    The best thing to be said for this book is that immediately after finishing with volume 1 I ordered volume 2 and it went on the top of the To-Read-Pile the moment it was delivered. Trine Day is not a first tier publishing company and it shows that this book was not professionally edited.

    What is in there that should not be: ~100 pages on the PROMIS software story. Anybody who has ever worked on code for a year or more knows the claims bandied about here are impossible.

    What is not in there that should be: Whitney Webb is very smart but appears to not understand the concepts of sin and human weakness. Decent and honest people can do really horrible things when the lists compromising circumstances pile up and this is bad fortune when you juxtapose with the otherwise 99.99% of their lives. Not everything is rotten to the core and we are not all doomed. Else how are any of us still here at all?

    At least she isn’t partisan. Equal venom at Bushes and Clintons. : )

    • Thanks: Ivashka the fool, S
    • Replies: @Ivashka the fool
    @Emil Nikola Richard

    Whitney Webb is wonderful.

    Her Covid articles on Last American Vagabond and UR were fascinating.

    https://www.thelastamericanvagabond.com/category/whitney-webb/

    https://www.unz.com/author/whitney-webb/

    Of course, being a journalist, she often makes claims that no molecular biologist would do. Nevertheless, her writing is a worthy read.

    I wish her to "live long and prosper", but don't really count on it too much.

    She's probably an unwilling member of the Suicide Squad by now.

    Emil, you realize that it is a major thought-crime to read these books?

    Someone should scan them and put the PDFs online.

    🙂

    Replies: @LondonBob

    , @orchardist
    @Emil Nikola Richard

    THIS is the way a comment should be written; Well said, well done.

    Thank you!!!

    Would that all commenters were so well written . . .

  37. @Yahya
    @songbird

    Deceit once again.

    1) The first map you linked to shows Turkish-Greek genetic distance (5) as being smaller than Greek-German (6). Now you shift around like a snake; linking to another Tweet.

    2) We were talking about the Irish, not Germans.

    3) Ancient Greeks were further from Germans in antiquity than today. Modern Greeks received 20-25% Slavic admixture following the fall of Byzantium; which pulled them towards Germany (itself a Slavic-mixed nation).

    4) Turks exhibit 12-20% East Eurasian admixture which pulls them away from Greeks. Since East Eurasian DNA is extremely distant from West Eurasian DNA; just a small pulse can dramatically shift Turks on the PCA. But even so, Turks are still closer to Greeks than the Irish (and every other N. European nation). In fact a substantial portion of Turks are in essence Turkified Greeks. Had it not been for East Eurasian admixture; Turks would be almost identical to Greeks genetically.

    5) The Irish have squat-all to do with Ancient Greece.

    So your efforts to "own" fail miserably once again; owing to your general incoherence and lack of honesty.

    Replies: @Wokechoke, @Finn, @Philip Owen, @Emil Nikola Richard

    Were not the Gaels settlers or Asia minor and Greece? Ala Galatians?

    • Replies: @Yahya
    @Finn


    Were not the Gaels settlers or Asia minor and Greece? Ala Galatians?
     
    Is this sentence supposed to be encrypted so that no-one here can understand it?

    Your commenting history goes back 16 years; yet you only comment once every blue moon. A deep lurker.

    Interesting.

    Replies: @Leaves No Shadow

    , @Yevardian
    @Finn

    The number of Celts/Gauls/Galatians that permanently settled in Anatolia was actually relatively small, despite their oversized impact.
    As for Greece, the main reason why the Celts decided to settle in Anatolia was because they were ultimately repulsed in Greece. Though the sources contradict each other on details, it appears quite clear the Celts were in large part brought over as mercenaries by both Greeks and local Anatolian kingdoms (chiefly Bithynia) themselves, with predictable results.
    On a related note its worth mentioning that the Turks first made permanent landfall in Europe for similar reasons, iirc they were ferried to Thrace as mercenaries during a late Byzantine Civil War between the useless but legitimate Ioannes Palaiologos V and the talented but entirely self-serving Ioannes Kantakouzenos.

    The permanent change of ethnic character in Phrygia to Galatia was able to take place largely because of the anarchic conditions prevailing in Anatolia following the death of Seleukos I and the subsequent revolts and seccessions that nearly overcame the empire he founded.

    This of course was only a part of the general wave of instability, demographic change and violence that swept the Near-East beginning with Alexander the Great's conquests, continuing into the free-for-all power struggle after Alexander failed to name an heir, until 281 BC at the battle of Koropedion.

    What's particularly interesting is how after the Persian Achaemenid Empire was destroyed, certain regions, which were especially dependent on import/export economies, collapsed economically and demographically. Central Anatolia and Northern Mesopotamia were particularly hard-hit during this transition, which led to Northern Syria and the Armenian Highlands to take their place as regional centres respectively.

    Anyway, last year I read a particularly good archaelogical paper on this subject, concerning Galatia/Phrygia in particular, noting evidence of widespread urban collapse, in which the Celts later filled the vacuum.

    https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/anatolian-studies/article/collapse-of-empire-at-gordion-in-the-transition-from-the-achaemenid-to-the-hellenistic-world/E25F3CD8106D22741C9C5809FE081BFD

    (use scihub)

    For later centuries, the best book I read on the later transition is Speros Vryonis' "The Decline of Medieval Hellenism in Asia Minor', the only full length book of its kind that I know of on this extremely important cultural transformation.

    tldr: I don't care (at all) about these autistic haplogroup arguments.
    But genetically, I would imagine the real barrier between 'Europe' and 'Asia' is much more firmly delineated at the Tauros/Zagros mountains, not the Hellespont/Aegean, although the Turkish/Kurdish genocides of Anatolia's Christian peoples probably changed this a fair bit.

  38. @Another Polish Perspective
    @A123


    The Union is supposed to be a collection of sovereign equals. Thus, it should be clear that all nations (not just Germany) have national courts as a check on EU over reach. Somehow, this necessity has been lost in many nations. Even after Brexit, the UK is still trying to escape this trap.
     
    I don't know man... This is elite problem - you will never see a normal person having any personal experience with this, like saying "I lost because the court ignored our national laws in favour of ECHR jurisprudence". It never happens. The media are constantly aroused by this, so you think it is real, but really it isn't.
    A normal person will have most likely the opposite problem - that ECHR jurisprudence, which is on his side, will be ignored. Such people you will surely meet. In case of Germany, which presents itself as ultra-European this is especially "in your face" arrogance. BTW, Germany respects ECHR refugee-jurisprudence, but other than that - not so much.

    From my experience with courts, the civil law legal rule of "free assessments of evidence and proof" is a source of many evils. Because of it, you are actually at judge's grace, like in feudalism. How often I have heard in court reports "Our evidence has not been taken into account" etc. So evil is that, that I would even replace it with stare decisis of common law.

    Replies: @A123

    I don’t know man… This is elite problem – you will never see a normal person having any personal experience with this, like saying “I lost because the court ignored our national laws in favour of ECHR jurisprudence”.

    I seem to recall the ECHR sanctioning a woman for telling the truth — Muhammad raped Aisha when she was 9. Though that may have been a different European court. The ECHR intervened to stop the UK’s “Stay in Africa” plan. This places huge number of Brits at risk of violent crime.

    Yes. Few individuals make it before high courts. However, their judicial action (and inaction) has huge consequences on many individuals. For example, tens of millions of weapons will made theoretically illegal if SCOTUS does not intervene on the subject of “wrist braces”.

    PEACE 😇

    • Replies: @Another Polish Perspective
    @A123

    My view of ECHR is more positive than negative, and I say that after reading many ECHR decisions. Most of ECHR non-refugee decisions are sound.
    This court is hugely popular in Europe - so much that its own popularity questions its own efficiency. This huge popularity is a testimony to the fact that basic rights are often endangered in Europe. West & North Europe suffers from paternalism of elites which can twist law itself, whereas East Europe often is simply not very well law-abiding, and the South Europe simply doesn't care (the longest time of court proceedings in Europe, and "losing" documents).
    The fact that this popularity somehow isn't argument for ECHR enlargement but for making access to it more difficult says all about European elites.


    Yes. Few individuals make it before high courts.
     
    The majority that does not make to high court isn't in any way less important than those who made it. Once again, selective enforcement of law by high courts is a testimony to the fact that they are a tool of elites.
    Well, when I read a book on ECHR jurisprudence I was surprised by a surprising number of royals who brought their case there - a former king of Greece, this German princess, that German princess...(there were many kingdoms in Reich). Well, I guess that as always, aristocracy and royals get a privileged access to high courts ;(

    Replies: @Another Polish Perspective

  39. @Emil Nikola Richard
    Iraqi Information Minister reviews
    One Nation Under Blackmail
    Whitney Webb
    Trine Day; 2022
    2 volumes; 532pp + 418pp

    This is everything one needs to know in order to make sense of the Jeffrey Epstein Ghislaine Maxwell caper according to independent journalist Whitney Webb. It's worth reading most of it although reading every line cover to cover would be an enormous task and I did not do that. Tactical skimming is maybe a requirement.

    If you are a politics nerd there might be nothing new here at all. She didn't wear out any shoes running around collecting first hand accounts and she does not identify any previously unknown whistleblowers. What she has done is review as much published information as possible and I definitely learned many things which seem to be obscure. Reliability of these is debatable.

    In descending order of importance.

    1. The Iran Contra Arms Hostages scandal of the 1980's is a misnomer. It would be far more accurate to call that CIA Arms Cocaine Money Laundering Sex Traffic Loose End that somehow partly made it into the public. William Casey and Oliver North were merely high level participants and by no means the ones calling the shots. Those guys know who they are but remain unnamed. Other high level participants with large roles were Robert Maxwell and Adnan Koshogghi and Robert Keith Gray. The last guy who I had never heard of is the man on the cover with Casey and Cohn that nobody recognizes. This guy:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Keith_Gray

    The most nefarious item on that page is that Gray was a closeted homo.

    2. The Chinese money guys that subsidize the Clintons are small arms manufacturers. They made their fortune selling AK47's and hand grenades and bullets to both sides during the massive and long Iraq Iran war. Webb opines that the genesis of the Chinese manufacturing complex that dominates today's world economy was precisely this episode. These Chinese arms were the big payload for the Casey-North-Maxwell-Koshogghi-Gray project and the cocaine and sex slaves were merely side projects. If your interest and exposure to this resembles my own, your eyes will glaze over long before you get to the end of the evidence Webb provides for this angle of her presentation. This is all part of the 500 pages of required background even before we arrive to the arrival of Jeffrey Epstein to the insides of this very long story.

    3. Leslie Wexner is the successor to Meyer Lansky. He is the finance guy who manages the Mob profits from drugs, gambling, labor union racketeering, government fraud, sex slaves, &c. By this point he is probably as rich as Gates and Buffett put together. He is the main Jew Israel Mossad backer on planet earth.

    4. Air America which rose to notoriety flying heroin from Thailand to North America has been renamed three or four times already. It is now operated out of Leslie Wexner's private Akron airport hangers. Here is the source of the fascination Epstein and aviation. They made as much money smuggling Chinese machine guns and ammo as they ever made on coke.

    5. The way these guys stay out of jail and beyond the reach of the law is they own the law. Specifically a large percentage of top law enforcement officials are perverts, thieves, murderers, blackmailers, and more and the evidence of this is in video, audio, and other documentation in the possession of all the major global powers and their spy agencies. This practice was perfected by Meyer Lansky, Roy Cohn, and J. Edgar Hoover whose most important control files were on one another. This is the secret society with the most power of all.

    5b. Roy Cohn was somewhere between Donald Trump's mentor and soul mate.

    https://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/Cohn-with-a-young-Donald-Trump.jpg

    6. Jeff Epstein is merely one more (er, 5 or 6 more) chapter in this depressing saga. His fatal flaw was the tabloids loved publicizing photos of him and his sexy ornaments and he didn't take sufficient precautions to discourage this. Maybe the glamor attraction provided him with essential business assets and the problem had no work-around

    I could go on and on and on like Whitney Webb did but I will make some short meta commentary.

    The best thing to be said for this book is that immediately after finishing with volume 1 I ordered volume 2 and it went on the top of the To-Read-Pile the moment it was delivered. Trine Day is not a first tier publishing company and it shows that this book was not professionally edited.

    What is in there that should not be: ~100 pages on the PROMIS software story. Anybody who has ever worked on code for a year or more knows the claims bandied about here are impossible.

    What is not in there that should be: Whitney Webb is very smart but appears to not understand the concepts of sin and human weakness. Decent and honest people can do really horrible things when the lists compromising circumstances pile up and this is bad fortune when you juxtapose with the otherwise 99.99% of their lives. Not everything is rotten to the core and we are not all doomed. Else how are any of us still here at all?

    At least she isn't partisan. Equal venom at Bushes and Clintons. : )

    Replies: @Ivashka the fool, @orchardist

    Whitney Webb is wonderful.

    Her Covid articles on Last American Vagabond and UR were fascinating.

    https://www.thelastamericanvagabond.com/category/whitney-webb/

    https://www.unz.com/author/whitney-webb/

    Of course, being a journalist, she often makes claims that no molecular biologist would do. Nevertheless, her writing is a worthy read.

    I wish her to “live long and prosper”, but don’t really count on it too much.

    She’s probably an unwilling member of the Suicide Squad by now.

    Emil, you realize that it is a major thought-crime to read these books?

    Someone should scan them and put the PDFs online.

    🙂

    • Replies: @LondonBob
    @Ivashka the fool

    Ryan Dawson originates much of Whitney Webb's stuff, at least he believes so.

  40. @Ivashka the fool
    @Sher Singh

    True power is economic and financial. Marx was right about that. Basis and superstructure. I will know they are losing power when I will see them begging in the streets. Not losing my breath waiting though.

    https://youtu.be/NgbqXsA62Qs

    This guy barely scratched the surface. It was a mandatory watching I imposed the kids when they reached 14 years old. The only change in the last decade was an even more marked financial power concentration and even more marked decoupling of the 0.1% from the rest of us. Everything else is woodoo doll and needle type of thing. Distractions. Not really important. That is why we can discuss it freely here. Tell me more about Jats and their continuous connections to the Harappan civilization please !

    🙂

    Replies: @Sher Singh, @S, @S

    You don’t carry weapons & you eat beef.
    You’re a savage beneath a Dalit, and I’m not gonna take nor answer you seriously.

    When you man up, and display conduct fitting a human we can discuss Dharma.


    ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫਤਹਿ

    • LOL: Ivashka the fool
    • Replies: @Ivashka the fool
    @Sher Singh

    Well, at least we agree about not taking each other seriously.

    🙂

    Replies: @Sher Singh

  41. @A123
    @Another Polish Perspective


    I don’t know man… This is elite problem – you will never see a normal person having any personal experience with this, like saying “I lost because the court ignored our national laws in favour of ECHR jurisprudence”.
     
    I seem to recall the ECHR sanctioning a woman for telling the truth -- Muhammad raped Aisha when she was 9. Though that may have been a different European court. The ECHR intervened to stop the UK's "Stay in Africa" plan. This places huge number of Brits at risk of violent crime.

    Yes. Few individuals make it before high courts. However, their judicial action (and inaction) has huge consequences on many individuals. For example, tens of millions of weapons will made theoretically illegal if SCOTUS does not intervene on the subject of "wrist braces".

    PEACE 😇

    Replies: @Another Polish Perspective

    My view of ECHR is more positive than negative, and I say that after reading many ECHR decisions. Most of ECHR non-refugee decisions are sound.
    This court is hugely popular in Europe – so much that its own popularity questions its own efficiency. This huge popularity is a testimony to the fact that basic rights are often endangered in Europe. West & North Europe suffers from paternalism of elites which can twist law itself, whereas East Europe often is simply not very well law-abiding, and the South Europe simply doesn’t care (the longest time of court proceedings in Europe, and “losing” documents).
    The fact that this popularity somehow isn’t argument for ECHR enlargement but for making access to it more difficult says all about European elites.

    Yes. Few individuals make it before high courts.

    The majority that does not make to high court isn’t in any way less important than those who made it. Once again, selective enforcement of law by high courts is a testimony to the fact that they are a tool of elites.
    Well, when I read a book on ECHR jurisprudence I was surprised by a surprising number of royals who brought their case there – a former king of Greece, this German princess, that German princess…(there were many kingdoms in Reich). Well, I guess that as always, aristocracy and royals get a privileged access to high courts ;(

    • Replies: @Another Polish Perspective
    @Another Polish Perspective

    If you ask me, they could reform ECHR by taking refugees cases out of it. ECHR was thought as the court for Europeans and there could be a separate court like "Refugees Appeal Tribunal of Council of Europe". Since the refugee cases often concern Article 2, Right to Life, then tend to clog the temporary protection ECHR pipeline, keeping non-2.Article petitioners (who tend to be European citizens) from getting temporary protection.

  42. @Sher Singh
    @Ivashka the fool

    You don't carry weapons & you eat beef.
    You're a savage beneath a Dalit, and I'm not gonna take nor answer you seriously.

    When you man up, and display conduct fitting a human we can discuss Dharma.

    https://twitter.com/Kharagket/status/1105167528882589698
    ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫਤਹਿ

    Replies: @Ivashka the fool

    Well, at least we agree about not taking each other seriously.

    🙂

    • Replies: @Sher Singh
    @Ivashka the fool

    Keep polishing my horse's dick Slav.
    The closest Germans & Slaves come to Aryans is serving them.

    Replies: @Ivashka the fool

  43. @Ivashka the fool
    @Sher Singh

    True power is economic and financial. Marx was right about that. Basis and superstructure. I will know they are losing power when I will see them begging in the streets. Not losing my breath waiting though.

    https://youtu.be/NgbqXsA62Qs

    This guy barely scratched the surface. It was a mandatory watching I imposed the kids when they reached 14 years old. The only change in the last decade was an even more marked financial power concentration and even more marked decoupling of the 0.1% from the rest of us. Everything else is woodoo doll and needle type of thing. Distractions. Not really important. That is why we can discuss it freely here. Tell me more about Jats and their continuous connections to the Harappan civilization please !

    🙂

    Replies: @Sher Singh, @S, @S

    True power is economic and financial…I will know they are losing power when I will see them begging in the streets. Not losing my breath waiting though.

    This guy barely scratched the surface…The only change in the last decade was an even more marked financial power concentration and even more marked decoupling of the 0.1% from the rest of us.

    I agree with you. Despite appearances otherwise at times, they in reality go from strength to strength.

  44. @Another Polish Perspective
    @A123

    My view of ECHR is more positive than negative, and I say that after reading many ECHR decisions. Most of ECHR non-refugee decisions are sound.
    This court is hugely popular in Europe - so much that its own popularity questions its own efficiency. This huge popularity is a testimony to the fact that basic rights are often endangered in Europe. West & North Europe suffers from paternalism of elites which can twist law itself, whereas East Europe often is simply not very well law-abiding, and the South Europe simply doesn't care (the longest time of court proceedings in Europe, and "losing" documents).
    The fact that this popularity somehow isn't argument for ECHR enlargement but for making access to it more difficult says all about European elites.


    Yes. Few individuals make it before high courts.
     
    The majority that does not make to high court isn't in any way less important than those who made it. Once again, selective enforcement of law by high courts is a testimony to the fact that they are a tool of elites.
    Well, when I read a book on ECHR jurisprudence I was surprised by a surprising number of royals who brought their case there - a former king of Greece, this German princess, that German princess...(there were many kingdoms in Reich). Well, I guess that as always, aristocracy and royals get a privileged access to high courts ;(

    Replies: @Another Polish Perspective

    If you ask me, they could reform ECHR by taking refugees cases out of it. ECHR was thought as the court for Europeans and there could be a separate court like “Refugees Appeal Tribunal of Council of Europe”. Since the refugee cases often concern Article 2, Right to Life, then tend to clog the temporary protection ECHR pipeline, keeping non-2.Article petitioners (who tend to be European citizens) from getting temporary protection.

  45. @Ivashka the fool
    @Sher Singh

    Well, at least we agree about not taking each other seriously.

    🙂

    Replies: @Sher Singh

    Keep polishing my horse’s dick Slav.
    The closest Germans & Slaves come to Aryans is serving them.

    • Replies: @Ivashka the fool
    @Sher Singh

    Well, as I wrote previously, I don't take you seriously and therefore it is impossible for you to insult me.

    All you are showing by writing these insanities, is that your moral standards are very low despite all your grandstanding posts about you being a Kshatryia.

    Don't you think that by coming accross as somewhat unhinged, you would lower UR readers respect towards the Khalsa ?

    What would your beloved Gurus think of you writing vulgarity for everyone to read on a public forum ?

    😉

    Replies: @Sher Singh

  46. @HeavilyMarbledSteak
    Response to @AP from the other thread -

    If anything, contemplation (and the leisure needed for it) was more emphasized in the Christian scale of values than in the Greek - it staggers me that you can say otherwise. The Desert Fathers, monasteries, and hermits, were more emphatically leisure and contemplation based institutions than even the ancient Greek philosophical schools which prized leisure (it is modernity, which was the breakup of Christianity, which ushered in the era of "work" - where our life is structured not around things we do for their own sake but things we do for the sake of some end).

    But perhaps the issue can be clarified by recourse to Aristotle's distinction between work and leisure, described above.

    Of course, there were hard working aristocrats, obviously, but if we are going to contrast the aristocratic attitude towards life with that of the bourgeois, then it is best to sketch their distinctive features, not commonalities.

    It is generally recognized that the advent of the bourgeois represented a new category of person with a new attitude to life, and the bourgeois has been studied extensively for that reason. I hope you're not gonna deny even this, you madman, AP :)

    And the bourgeois attitude to life - which is coterminous with the advent of modernity - is that life should be structured around "work", that is, activities for some end, rather than activities we do for their own sake.

    Now, certainly the aristocratic life contained "work" in this sense too, but being much freer from the burdens of needing to make a living, there was much more emphasis on intrinsically satisfying activities. In addition, being at the summit - like God - engendered a value system which prized effortless perfection, not striving, which implies lack. Perfection does not strive. Of course, this attitude was often just a stylish veneer, and imperfectly realized, but it was a genuine aristocratic conceit to present themselves as "perfect" (this conceit was very pronounced in China, which led to some very tragic consequences for them when they encountered the West.). So there was this "anti-striver" culture.

    As for the less salubrious and more sordid aspects of aristocratic life that I sketched in my other comment, there is simply too much documentary evidence for even you to pretend otherwise - although considering your complete evisceration of Christianity, I probably shouldn't set any boundaries on what you're prepared to deny :)

    I'd recommend starting by picking up Jacob Burckhardts book on the Italian Renaissance.

    Back to the question of nihilism, it's becoming clearer why the advent of the bourgeois coincided with the rise in nihilism - "work" is a focus on building up the physical world - APs hospitals, schools, factories, cities, and general "complex" civilization - i.e, it is activity with an end in view, however the sources of meaning in human life are actions that are intrinsically worthwhile and done for no other end.

    The purest expression of this would be contemplation and the life of leisure that implies, but going out to nature, hiking, music, art, poetry, dancing, philosophy (perhaps some kinds), literature, would be included.

    Of course AP, I'd agree with you that building up the physical world has some value, but when you make that the primary focus of life - as you do, of course - you court nihilism.

    As I said in the other thread, AP, you imagine yourself a positive force in the world, but you are in fact a dark agent of entropy and an agent of the modern crisis of meaning :)

    Replies: @AP

    If anything, contemplation (and the leisure needed for it) was more emphasized in the Christian scale of values than in the Greek

    Utter nonsense. You are aping the sort of anti-Christian propaganda told by Bolsheviks or those like them. Remember when I posted the parable for you, about returning God’s gifts rather than doing nothing with them? To quote the Orthodox aristocrat Berdyaev, who despises bourgeois such as you (I think he was a bit unfair towards them):

    “ The Greco-Roman civilization, aristocratic in its very principles, despised work and looked upon it as the portion of the slaves; it is only since Christianity, since the Gospel, that work and those who do it have been sanctified. Christ l himself worked: “The labourer is worthy of his hire.” The parables concerning the talents and the vineyard speak of human labour, of human activity, of human creative gifts: man must return his talents multiplied to God (Matt, xxv, 14-30; xxi, 28-31). The activity of man must be fruitful; he is told to till the soil; he must return increased all that he has received. Nowhere does the Gospel justify passivity. Christianity established the dignity of every man, ‘fashioned in God’s image and after his likeness,’ and it opens an endless vista of perfection, a perfection not only of individuals but of social meaning. Christianity affirms that man is a spiritual being, and spirit is ever active; that is the definition of spirit. Matter is passive and inert. A spiritual being cannot but strive towards eternity, perfection, the fullness of life, and such a striving implies movement, dynamic development, activity.”

    The Desert Fathers, monasteries, and hermits, were more emphatically leisure and contemplation

    They worked hard in active prayer and other activities. Have you ever visited a Christian monastery? And of course in addition to praying they were building hospitals, transcribing books (incredibly time-consuming activity), tilling soil, feeding the hungry, healing the sick, etc. And in line with the Christian view of the world they were also focused on ways of harnessing the natural world through tinkering with a perpetual motion machine, alchemical experiments, etc. The scientific method came from devout Churchmen.

    And the bourgeois attitude to life – which is coterminous with the advent of modernity – is that life should be structured around “work”, that is, activities for some end, rather than activities we do for their own sake

    Here you are correct. The problem is that you, who are thoroughly bourgeois, believes that work is something that can only be done for some end. That nobody can possibly do work for its own sake or for anything other than raw material benefit (such as love, or inner sense of honor and duty). So you reject work, but have failed to escape your bourgeois nature.

    A bourgeois, like you, who doesn’t work in still a bourgeois, he’s just a self-indulgent and lazy one.

    So you try to deny your bourgeois nature by choosing not to work, and to live off others’ labor without laboring yourself. You engage in self-indulgence in nature, an act of consumption, and dare to compare yourself to ancient monks, an example of the status-seeking and striving that you as a bourgeois cannot escape. And arrogance.

    I’d recommend starting by picking up Jacob Burckhardts book on the Italian Renaissance

    Unlike you I don’t need books to know about aristocratic values and lifestyle.

    APs hospitals, schools, factories, cities, and general “complex” civilization – i.e, it is activity with an end in view

    It is the goal-directed and forward-focused nature of Christianity that inspires the need for development and improvement. It is what differentiates Christendom from other civilisations and explains it’s spectacular rise in this world.

    You are really lost in your materialism if you think that there is nothing in the building of hospitals and schools, creation of sanitary sewer systems, healing of the sick, technological inventions to improve all these things, other than a wish to get rich or to get status. I guess it’s a confession that if you did these things this is what would have motivated you. What emptiness and poverty.

    The purest expression of this would be contemplation and the life of leisure that implies, but going out to nature, hiking, music, art, poetry, dancing, philosophy (perhaps some kinds), literature

    You are the type of bourgeois who finds meaning in consumption rather than production. Which makes you a worse kind of bourgeois.

    Of course AP, I’d agree with you that building up the physical world has some value, but when you make that the primary focus of life

    What you fail to understand is that the meaning behind building up the physical world is what matters when determining whether or not someone is bourgeois. But that even if they are – the nice thing about the capitalist system is that within it such people’s bad instincts (striving, greed) are harnessed and used for good ends. Whereas otherwise such sins (which are universal) are not. Better for a greedy person to express his greed by working harder and producing something useful, and using the money he makes to buy someone’s attention than to express his greed by raiding a neighbor’s hut and taking his livestock and women. Or snitching on his neighbor to get him sent to a gulag and taking his apartment.

    • Replies: @Wokechoke
    @AP

    while 1984 is a pseudonymous Eton educated, Imperial Policeman and MI6 agent, western author fantasizing about totalitarian futures; Master and Margerita is a former Imperial Russian Army Officer, Mikhail Bulgakov telling you what it was like to be an author during a totalitarian singularity. What Western men read about as fiction, these people IRL it.

    , @HeavilyMarbledSteak
    @AP

    I thought I mentioned several times already that work to secure a modest living is not what I'm condemning. And I guess there's little point in repeating that Jesus said we should give up wealth - much less work to acquire it - and not store up our treasures in this world, and that we should not be excessively preoccupied with securing food or shelter. As Dmitry said, how many times can you repeat "but you're eating chocolate" to someone eating chocolate who insists he isn't :)

    I also note that you didn't respond to my pointing out that the highest form of prayer in the Heyschast tradition is contemplation, which is emptying the mind and doing nothing. I guess that's just a Bolshevik slur.

    But it's interesting that you are defending Christianity from the "slur" of not focusing on material ends - like the Bolsheviks, you accept that materialism is the yardstick of value. What a thorough modern man you are :)

    One of the things that irks me about political discussions these days is that all sides, left and right, argue from the same set of shared assumptions and values. It's just rearranging pieces on a chessboard. Unz for instance is just basically a reverse image of Woke with the pieces arranged differently. We have not yet reached the stage where people question inherited assumptions and received values - but when that happens, you enter a period of true religious ferment. We are badly in need of a new Axial Age.

    But you are funny - so activity that we do for its own sake and not for some other end - like appreciating the beauty of nature - is an act of "consumption", and of little worth, because it isn't producing anything.

    The funny thing is, even within the capitalist paradigm whose terms you are employing, the purpose of work is so that one can consume :)

    The true ends of life even within the capitalist system is consumption and not productive work, which is merely a means to that end - of course, since it's capitalism, it conception of consumption can only be in terms of material things, but even it preserves a dim echo of the correct value-hierarchy between work and consumption. We till the soil so we can eat food - not just so we can till.

    So let's just say then I'm a defender of "consumption" as being primary, and the means to consumption secondary :)

    But somehow, our civilization has lost sight of that relationship. I wonder how we get like this.

    Replies: @Barbarossa, @AP

  47. Absolutely. That’s normal and should be expected. Anyone who would have read Giovanni Arrighi would easily understand this.

    [MORE]

    Gramsci’s concept of hegemony is applied to interstate relations to account for both the invariance and the evolution of the modern world-system from its beginnings in Late-Medieval Europe to our days. It is argued that what made the United Provinces, the United Kingdom, and the United States hegemonic in their respective “worlds” was not their military might or superior command over scarce resources as such, but their predispositions and capabilities to use either or both to solve the problems over which system-wide conflicts raged. The changes in the nature of these problems and, therefore, in the conditions of the rise and decline of world hegemonies are explored, and some provisional hypotheses concerning the future of the modern world-system are advanced.

    https://www.jstor.org/stable/40241160

    • Replies: @Ivashka the fool
    @Ivashka the fool

    Should have been a reply to the comment # 43 by S.

    , @S
    @Ivashka the fool


    It is argued that what made the United Provinces, the United Kingdom, and the United States hegemonic in their respective “worlds” was not their military might or superior command over scarce resources as such, but their predispositions and capabilities to use either or both to solve the problems over which system-wide conflicts raged.
     
    Thanks for the intriguing excerpt and link.

    In regards to the linked paper's title, The Three Hegemonies of Historical Capitalism, I'm reminded of how I once heard the United Provinces and the United States tellingly referred to as 'commercial republics'.

    All things considered, I suppose the United Kingdom could be said to be an honorary commercial republic. :-)

    Replies: @Ivashka the fool

  48. @Sher Singh
    @Ivashka the fool

    Keep polishing my horse's dick Slav.
    The closest Germans & Slaves come to Aryans is serving them.

    Replies: @Ivashka the fool

    Well, as I wrote previously, I don’t take you seriously and therefore it is impossible for you to insult me.

    All you are showing by writing these insanities, is that your moral standards are very low despite all your grandstanding posts about you being a Kshatryia.

    Don’t you think that by coming accross as somewhat unhinged, you would lower UR readers respect towards the Khalsa ?

    What would your beloved Gurus think of you writing vulgarity for everyone to read on a public forum ?

    😉

    • Replies: @Sher Singh
    @Ivashka the fool

    The Khalsa is the physical form of the Guru.
    I'm not really arguing just being straight forward.

    You're trying to steal my heritage because you lack your own.

    Your filthy mouth even mentioning the Guru is an insult.

    Russia was already partitioned in 1991 & let's hope the remainder are free'd from the yoke of filth like you।।

    ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫਤਿਹ

    Replies: @Ivashka the fool

  49. @Ivashka the fool
    Absolutely. That's normal and should be expected. Anyone who would have read Giovanni Arrighi would easily understand this.


    Gramsci's concept of hegemony is applied to interstate relations to account for both the invariance and the evolution of the modern world-system from its beginnings in Late-Medieval Europe to our days. It is argued that what made the United Provinces, the United Kingdom, and the United States hegemonic in their respective "worlds" was not their military might or superior command over scarce resources as such, but their predispositions and capabilities to use either or both to solve the problems over which system-wide conflicts raged. The changes in the nature of these problems and, therefore, in the conditions of the rise and decline of world hegemonies are explored, and some provisional hypotheses concerning the future of the modern world-system are advanced.
     
    https://www.jstor.org/stable/40241160

    Replies: @Ivashka the fool, @S

    Should have been a reply to the comment # 43 by S.

  50. @Emil Nikola Richard
    Iraqi Information Minister reviews
    One Nation Under Blackmail
    Whitney Webb
    Trine Day; 2022
    2 volumes; 532pp + 418pp

    This is everything one needs to know in order to make sense of the Jeffrey Epstein Ghislaine Maxwell caper according to independent journalist Whitney Webb. It's worth reading most of it although reading every line cover to cover would be an enormous task and I did not do that. Tactical skimming is maybe a requirement.

    If you are a politics nerd there might be nothing new here at all. She didn't wear out any shoes running around collecting first hand accounts and she does not identify any previously unknown whistleblowers. What she has done is review as much published information as possible and I definitely learned many things which seem to be obscure. Reliability of these is debatable.

    In descending order of importance.

    1. The Iran Contra Arms Hostages scandal of the 1980's is a misnomer. It would be far more accurate to call that CIA Arms Cocaine Money Laundering Sex Traffic Loose End that somehow partly made it into the public. William Casey and Oliver North were merely high level participants and by no means the ones calling the shots. Those guys know who they are but remain unnamed. Other high level participants with large roles were Robert Maxwell and Adnan Koshogghi and Robert Keith Gray. The last guy who I had never heard of is the man on the cover with Casey and Cohn that nobody recognizes. This guy:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Keith_Gray

    The most nefarious item on that page is that Gray was a closeted homo.

    2. The Chinese money guys that subsidize the Clintons are small arms manufacturers. They made their fortune selling AK47's and hand grenades and bullets to both sides during the massive and long Iraq Iran war. Webb opines that the genesis of the Chinese manufacturing complex that dominates today's world economy was precisely this episode. These Chinese arms were the big payload for the Casey-North-Maxwell-Koshogghi-Gray project and the cocaine and sex slaves were merely side projects. If your interest and exposure to this resembles my own, your eyes will glaze over long before you get to the end of the evidence Webb provides for this angle of her presentation. This is all part of the 500 pages of required background even before we arrive to the arrival of Jeffrey Epstein to the insides of this very long story.

    3. Leslie Wexner is the successor to Meyer Lansky. He is the finance guy who manages the Mob profits from drugs, gambling, labor union racketeering, government fraud, sex slaves, &c. By this point he is probably as rich as Gates and Buffett put together. He is the main Jew Israel Mossad backer on planet earth.

    4. Air America which rose to notoriety flying heroin from Thailand to North America has been renamed three or four times already. It is now operated out of Leslie Wexner's private Akron airport hangers. Here is the source of the fascination Epstein and aviation. They made as much money smuggling Chinese machine guns and ammo as they ever made on coke.

    5. The way these guys stay out of jail and beyond the reach of the law is they own the law. Specifically a large percentage of top law enforcement officials are perverts, thieves, murderers, blackmailers, and more and the evidence of this is in video, audio, and other documentation in the possession of all the major global powers and their spy agencies. This practice was perfected by Meyer Lansky, Roy Cohn, and J. Edgar Hoover whose most important control files were on one another. This is the secret society with the most power of all.

    5b. Roy Cohn was somewhere between Donald Trump's mentor and soul mate.

    https://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/Cohn-with-a-young-Donald-Trump.jpg

    6. Jeff Epstein is merely one more (er, 5 or 6 more) chapter in this depressing saga. His fatal flaw was the tabloids loved publicizing photos of him and his sexy ornaments and he didn't take sufficient precautions to discourage this. Maybe the glamor attraction provided him with essential business assets and the problem had no work-around

    I could go on and on and on like Whitney Webb did but I will make some short meta commentary.

    The best thing to be said for this book is that immediately after finishing with volume 1 I ordered volume 2 and it went on the top of the To-Read-Pile the moment it was delivered. Trine Day is not a first tier publishing company and it shows that this book was not professionally edited.

    What is in there that should not be: ~100 pages on the PROMIS software story. Anybody who has ever worked on code for a year or more knows the claims bandied about here are impossible.

    What is not in there that should be: Whitney Webb is very smart but appears to not understand the concepts of sin and human weakness. Decent and honest people can do really horrible things when the lists compromising circumstances pile up and this is bad fortune when you juxtapose with the otherwise 99.99% of their lives. Not everything is rotten to the core and we are not all doomed. Else how are any of us still here at all?

    At least she isn't partisan. Equal venom at Bushes and Clintons. : )

    Replies: @Ivashka the fool, @orchardist

    THIS is the way a comment should be written; Well said, well done.

    Thank you!!!

    Would that all commenters were so well written . . .

    • Agree: Barbarossa
  51. Good news for team MAGA today: (1)

     

    This should quell the desperate wailing & clamoring for a neocon challenge to Trump. Sadly, it will probably take longer to quash the folly.

    PEACE 😇
    __________

    (1) https://www.zerohedge.com/political/trump-desantis-lead-biden-hypothetical-2024-matchup-poll

  52. @Finn
    @Yahya

    Were not the Gaels settlers or Asia minor and Greece? Ala Galatians?

    Replies: @Yahya, @Yevardian

    Were not the Gaels settlers or Asia minor and Greece? Ala Galatians?

    Is this sentence supposed to be encrypted so that no-one here can understand it?

    Your commenting history goes back 16 years; yet you only comment once every blue moon. A deep lurker.

    Interesting.

    • Replies: @Leaves No Shadow
    @Yahya

    He isn't being cryptic at all

    "In 278 B.C., a group of Celtic immigrants crossed from the Balkans into Anatolia, or present-day Turkey. The long journey to the Bosporus from their European homeland had taken these wandering Celts, known as Galatians, through Hellenized states, where they settled temporarily as allies."

  53. Sher Singh says:
    @Ivashka the fool
    @Sher Singh

    Well, as I wrote previously, I don't take you seriously and therefore it is impossible for you to insult me.

    All you are showing by writing these insanities, is that your moral standards are very low despite all your grandstanding posts about you being a Kshatryia.

    Don't you think that by coming accross as somewhat unhinged, you would lower UR readers respect towards the Khalsa ?

    What would your beloved Gurus think of you writing vulgarity for everyone to read on a public forum ?

    😉

    Replies: @Sher Singh

    The Khalsa is the physical form of the Guru.
    I’m not really arguing just being straight forward.

    You’re trying to steal my heritage because you lack your own.

    Your filthy mouth even mentioning the Guru is an insult.

    Russia was already partitioned in 1991 & let’s hope the remainder are free’d from the yoke of filth like you।।

    ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫਤਿਹ

    • Replies: @Ivashka the fool
    @Sher Singh


    You’re trying to steal my heritage because you lack your own.
     
    Well, that's just your insecurity showing up here. Nobody's stealing anything from anyone by discussing one's ancestry. I discussed mine, and you just jumped in for no reason other than your personal projections.

    I know my ancestry and my heritage, with which I am satisfied and which I am proud of. I wish you sincerely that one day you also do get to this point, when you don't feel the need to write obscenities on teh internets to defend the valor of your people.

    Regarding partition of RusFed, that might happen for sure, but it has absolutely nothing to do with the subject that we discussed and which triggered your unbalanced replies.

    You seem to wrongly think that there's a transition in power and status ongoing between your White overlords of days past and your minority group. This is not the case. You and other Brown people are simply being played and used as a tool in the elite social warfare against the middle class White sheeple as per Kalergi plan.

    The elite are well above the fray and they pull the strings. They are unreachable for both of us and they are the ones taking the kind of decisions that might lead to RusFed partition or eventual creation of the Khalistan.

    This being said, be well and don't forget to take your pills...

    🙂

    Replies: @Sher Singh

  54. @songbird
    @Wokechoke

    I honestly do think that the probability of the Poles annexing parts of Germany is pretty high in the timeframe of the next half century. They would need to have nukes though.

    @Yahya
    Genetic distance depends on both the SNPs used and the specific individuals in the sample. That it differs very slightly between the two posts I have cited has no bearing on my point, which is that the genetic distance between Greeks and Turks is significant.

    Am puzzled by why you can't seem to accept this, even though you are not Turkish. Being open-minded and adaptable, I took it in stride, even though it went against my previous ideas. (I set aside phenotype)


    Had it not been for East Eurasian admixture; Turks would be almost identical to Greeks genetically.
     
    And there is the rub, and the source of the divisions. It is a pity that Constantinople fell. It would have prevented a lot of division and conflict, if its walls had stood.

    Deceit once again.
     
    Try to pick a different tagline. That one is already in use.

    Your “comebacks” get meeker
     
    Well, I'm trying to not be rude. (maybe, try it some time?)

    But suffice it to say that you don't understand Irishmen, if, as you keep asserting, you think that I would need to have some distant, vicarious connection to other Europeans in order to feel superior. Rather, it would suffice that I am an Irishman.

    Replies: @Yahya, @S

    which is that the genetic distance between Greeks and Turks is significant.

    Not as significant as between Greeks and Irish though.

    Doesn’t stop you from thinking Alexander was one of yours.

    ut suffice it to say that you don’t understand Irishmen, if, as you keep asserting, you think that I would need to have some distant, vicarious connection to other Europeans in order to feel superior. Rather, it would suffice that I am an Irishman.

    Lol, you only ever mention your Irish heritage once every blue moon. It took me a whole year to find out about your Irish background. I bet many people here would not have known either, had I not called you a Celtic sack of shit some time ago.

    From how possessive you seem about Germany, opining constantly on their internal politics as if you were one of them, I thought you may actually be German. But no, it turns out you don’t have single ounce of German blood in you. You just LARP from your mother’s basement somewhere in New England.

    I remember a comical comment you made once, in the very early days, saying “It gets awfully tiresome, when for example you’re being called “white British” by colonists.”

    That’s when I knew you were a delusional nut. Your comments since then have only reinforced my impression.

    • Replies: @Sher Singh
    @Yahya

    Wait is he seriously claiming Alexander?
    @songbird I thought that was a troll.

    American whites and blacks claim everyone's history tbh.
    There's an Afro & Euro centric Kang tale about everything.

    Replies: @songbird, @Yahya

    , @songbird
    @Yahya


    Doesn’t stop you from thinking Alexander was one of yours.
     
    Not sure that you understand your own thoughts, let alone those of others. My honest evaluation is that you have consistently demonstrated bad theory of mind, perhaps due to a lack of ability to sympathize - in a single word, narcissism.

    One of your most recent examples:

    From how possessive you seem about Germany, opining constantly on their internal politics as if you were one of them, I thought you may actually be German. But no, it turns out you don’t have single ounce of German blood in you.
     
    Maybe, I sympathize with Germans because I have known a lot of them and liked them? But you, with your fragile ego (such as all narcissists have) immediately interpret it as me promoting the übermensch, and feel shaken to your core because I have not expressed similar sentiments about Arabs.

    I remember a comical comment you made once
     
    Not as funny when you warned that Orban was going to start the Fourth Reich because he was against open borders, and trying to promote traditional values, and natalism. Saying that you understood it all because you had read Rise of the Third Reich or something, as if that made you some special scholar. LMAO.

    BTW, now that Orban has been re-elected to his fourth consecutive term, just when do you expect that he will put his plan for world dom into operation? When will Hungary, nation of <10 million, send its tanks sweeping East and West, then across North Africa, to put Arabs in their place?

    That's pretty embarrassing, man. No wonder you denied you said it, and hid your commenting history.


    I remember a comical comment you made once, in the very early days, saying “It gets awfully tiresome, when for example you’re being called “white British” by colonists.”
     
    My commenting history is open. I guess if I said that, using those words, then you can link to it. At least, if you are not lying through your teeth, or a paranoid schizo.

    BTW, you think it is positive to try to deracinate Europeans living in their native countries, by letting others steal their ethnic identity, and then labeling them white? I don't and that was my obvious point, which you bizarrely took issue with, so much so that my comment is still living in your head years later, at least with its image distorted, like one of Salvador Dalí's clocks, twisted by your strange inferiority complex.

    Lol, you only ever mention your Irish heritage once every blue moon.
     
    Has to be the dumbest thing you have ever said. I've always been open about my identity, correcting numerous people who have misapprehended me, and encouraging others to disclose their ethnic biases. I would be in favor of headers with flags.

    I have 13 pages mentioning "Irish", 16 "Ireland." Don't blame me, if you assumed wrongly, and build an imaginary identity for me, without bothering to ask me.

    You called me a Nazi, without even asking anything about me. That was soon after you said that America isn't accommodating enough to immigrants, and that you knew what it was like to be one and to feel alienated because you were a student here.

    You just LARP from your mother’s basement somewhere in New England.
     
    It is funny you keep saying this. What is it like being trained to be an Arab Saudi Aramco engineer?

    https://youtu.be/d7TV0bRmOtY

    Replies: @Yahya

  55. @Yahya
    @songbird


    which is that the genetic distance between Greeks and Turks is significant.
     
    Not as significant as between Greeks and Irish though.

    Doesn’t stop you from thinking Alexander was one of yours.


    ut suffice it to say that you don’t understand Irishmen, if, as you keep asserting, you think that I would need to have some distant, vicarious connection to other Europeans in order to feel superior. Rather, it would suffice that I am an Irishman.
     
    Lol, you only ever mention your Irish heritage once every blue moon. It took me a whole year to find out about your Irish background. I bet many people here would not have known either, had I not called you a Celtic sack of shit some time ago.

    From how possessive you seem about Germany, opining constantly on their internal politics as if you were one of them, I thought you may actually be German. But no, it turns out you don’t have single ounce of German blood in you. You just LARP from your mother’s basement somewhere in New England.

    I remember a comical comment you made once, in the very early days, saying “It gets awfully tiresome, when for example you’re being called “white British” by colonists.”

    That’s when I knew you were a delusional nut. Your comments since then have only reinforced my impression.

    Replies: @Sher Singh, @songbird

    Wait is he seriously claiming Alexander?
    I thought that was a troll.

    American whites and blacks claim everyone’s history tbh.
    There’s an Afro & Euro centric Kang tale about everything.

    • Replies: @songbird
    @Sher Singh


    Wait is he seriously claiming Alexander?.
     
    Afraid Yahya has slipped his straight-jacket

    Perhaps, he went to embrace some Spanish tourists, and they shirked back from him, due to his low-caste (i.e. black slave) Tuareg phenotype?

    Replies: @Yahya

    , @Yahya
    @Sher Singh


    American whites and blacks claim everyone’s history tbh.
    There’s an Afro & Euro centric Kang tale about everything.
     
    Not all Americans. Just assorted goofball WNs like ‘songbird’ and ‘S’ etc.

    Though they mock blacks for the “we wuz kangz” meme; they lack the self-awareness to understand that they are mirror images.

  56. @AP
    @HeavilyMarbledSteak


    If anything, contemplation (and the leisure needed for it) was more emphasized in the Christian scale of values than in the Greek
     
    Utter nonsense. You are aping the sort of anti-Christian propaganda told by Bolsheviks or those like them. Remember when I posted the parable for you, about returning God’s gifts rather than doing nothing with them? To quote the Orthodox aristocrat Berdyaev, who despises bourgeois such as you (I think he was a bit unfair towards them):

    “ The Greco-Roman civilization, aristocratic in its very principles, despised work and looked upon it as the portion of the slaves; it is only since Christianity, since the Gospel, that work and those who do it have been sanctified. Christ l himself worked: “The labourer is worthy of his hire.” The parables concerning the talents and the vineyard speak of human labour, of human activity, of human creative gifts: man must return his talents multiplied to God (Matt, xxv, 14-30; xxi, 28-31). The activity of man must be fruitful; he is told to till the soil; he must return increased all that he has received. Nowhere does the Gospel justify passivity. Christianity established the dignity of every man, ‘fashioned in God’s image and after his likeness,’ and it opens an endless vista of perfection, a perfection not only of individuals but of social meaning. Christianity affirms that man is a spiritual being, and spirit is ever active; that is the definition of spirit. Matter is passive and inert. A spiritual being cannot but strive towards eternity, perfection, the fullness of life, and such a striving implies movement, dynamic development, activity.”

    The Desert Fathers, monasteries, and hermits, were more emphatically leisure and contemplation
     
    They worked hard in active prayer and other activities. Have you ever visited a Christian monastery? And of course in addition to praying they were building hospitals, transcribing books (incredibly time-consuming activity), tilling soil, feeding the hungry, healing the sick, etc. And in line with the Christian view of the world they were also focused on ways of harnessing the natural world through tinkering with a perpetual motion machine, alchemical experiments, etc. The scientific method came from devout Churchmen.

    And the bourgeois attitude to life – which is coterminous with the advent of modernity – is that life should be structured around “work”, that is, activities for some end, rather than activities we do for their own sake

     

    Here you are correct. The problem is that you, who are thoroughly bourgeois, believes that work is something that can only be done for some end. That nobody can possibly do work for its own sake or for anything other than raw material benefit (such as love, or inner sense of honor and duty). So you reject work, but have failed to escape your bourgeois nature.

    A bourgeois, like you, who doesn’t work in still a bourgeois, he’s just a self-indulgent and lazy one.

    So you try to deny your bourgeois nature by choosing not to work, and to live off others’ labor without laboring yourself. You engage in self-indulgence in nature, an act of consumption, and dare to compare yourself to ancient monks, an example of the status-seeking and striving that you as a bourgeois cannot escape. And arrogance.

    I’d recommend starting by picking up Jacob Burckhardts book on the Italian Renaissance
     
    Unlike you I don’t need books to know about aristocratic values and lifestyle.

    APs hospitals, schools, factories, cities, and general “complex” civilization – i.e, it is activity with an end in view
     
    It is the goal-directed and forward-focused nature of Christianity that inspires the need for development and improvement. It is what differentiates Christendom from other civilisations and explains it’s spectacular rise in this world.

    You are really lost in your materialism if you think that there is nothing in the building of hospitals and schools, creation of sanitary sewer systems, healing of the sick, technological inventions to improve all these things, other than a wish to get rich or to get status. I guess it’s a confession that if you did these things this is what would have motivated you. What emptiness and poverty.

    The purest expression of this would be contemplation and the life of leisure that implies, but going out to nature, hiking, music, art, poetry, dancing, philosophy (perhaps some kinds), literature
     
    You are the type of bourgeois who finds meaning in consumption rather than production. Which makes you a worse kind of bourgeois.

    Of course AP, I’d agree with you that building up the physical world has some value, but when you make that the primary focus of life
     
    What you fail to understand is that the meaning behind building up the physical world is what matters when determining whether or not someone is bourgeois. But that even if they are - the nice thing about the capitalist system is that within it such people’s bad instincts (striving, greed) are harnessed and used for good ends. Whereas otherwise such sins (which are universal) are not. Better for a greedy person to express his greed by working harder and producing something useful, and using the money he makes to buy someone’s attention than to express his greed by raiding a neighbor’s hut and taking his livestock and women. Or snitching on his neighbor to get him sent to a gulag and taking his apartment.

    Replies: @Wokechoke, @HeavilyMarbledSteak

    while 1984 is a pseudonymous Eton educated, Imperial Policeman and MI6 agent, western author fantasizing about totalitarian futures; Master and Margerita is a former Imperial Russian Army Officer, Mikhail Bulgakov telling you what it was like to be an author during a totalitarian singularity. What Western men read about as fiction, these people IRL it.

    • Agree: Ivashka the fool
  57. @RSDB
    @AP (previous thread, several days ago)

    I don't think the poor are especially sinful, as a class, nor are they commonly saints. In the US, one common way to be poor, certainly, is to exhibit poor self-control, to be too ready for the drink or too quick to anger or too lustful. That those who are low in society turn to the fiercer satisfactions, and doing so helps keep them poor, while those who are more wealthy can turn to more refined pleasures, is not especially surprising.

    These are, however, not the only sins one can commit, and the refined and the luxurious are not necessarily the better people for it. I seem to recall someone saying something somewhere about camels and eyes of needles?

    Pride, for instance, the first sin and chief of sins, does not seem to be quite so much of a temptation to the poor of America, whereas it is actually celebrated by many of the rich.

    It was after all not the justified man who said I thank thee, God, that I am not like the rest of men, who steal and cheat and commit adultery, or like this publican here; for myself, I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.

    Replies: @Wokechoke, @Barbarossa, @AP

    I’ve often reflected how strange it is that the 7 deadly sins are basically the motive virtues of the modern world. Lust, greed, pride, etc. are all deified.

    I suppose it’s not really surprising that a society that elevates such characteristics would have an increasing number of failures, represented by the homeless and the addicted. In some cases anyhow they may be seen as the result of what happens when some of these vices fully take control of a life. The rich may very often be an example of the same vices harnessed to a self-serving extent.

    This isn’t to say that I dismiss the homeless as bad people. In many cases they are hapless victims of a sick and twisted society which doesn’t even possess the sense to have moral standards and safeguards for those who may not have sharp enough wits to discern their own.

    Any way you look at it, I think it’s impossible for these cases of human failure to be seen as anything but an unflattering mirror on the broken society that creates and perpetuates such cases.

    • Replies: @RSDB
    @Barbarossa

    Going to your original point several threads ago about familial breakdown, I know someone in Colombo, who would probably be homeless in the US as a white American.

    Actually not inconsiderable quantities of money have passed through his hands at various times in his life and every single time they have passed out again to the poor and to anyone who was in want, or seemed to be. (Not necessarily the so-called "deserving poor" either but this is getting far afield.)

    He was a brilliant student in his youth and was, I believe, the highest scorer up to that point on the mate's exam in the SL merchant marine; at any rate I know he worked as a navigator on various ships before beginning to develop schizophrenia, or at least what was diagnosed as schizophrenia. Schizophrenia in those days was treated by shock therapy, which was not very helpful, but, anyway, by the time I got to know him, he was on medication which helped make him seem fairly normal although it had various unpleasant side effects. If you got into a conversation with him, he was very well-read and quite perceptive. As I mentioned, money passed through his hands like water. He lives with extended family and looks after various things around the house, takes the children to school, etc. Actually he has a part interest in the house which is the only property he hasn't given away over the years, probably because he feels it is a sort of trust.

    For a while he worked for his brother's business but he tends to be very bad at handling people diplomatically, whether that is an effect of the disease or the medication, which made that a bad idea. Anyway he is probably, also, one of the most saintly people I have ever known, insofar as one can tell such things.

    The point of this anecdote is that a strong family does have an effect in keeping people together who might otherwise fall to pieces. It's not a fail-safe but the atomization of society is certainly one factor among many in our crazy upside-down universe of values.

  58. @AP
    @HeavilyMarbledSteak


    If anything, contemplation (and the leisure needed for it) was more emphasized in the Christian scale of values than in the Greek
     
    Utter nonsense. You are aping the sort of anti-Christian propaganda told by Bolsheviks or those like them. Remember when I posted the parable for you, about returning God’s gifts rather than doing nothing with them? To quote the Orthodox aristocrat Berdyaev, who despises bourgeois such as you (I think he was a bit unfair towards them):

    “ The Greco-Roman civilization, aristocratic in its very principles, despised work and looked upon it as the portion of the slaves; it is only since Christianity, since the Gospel, that work and those who do it have been sanctified. Christ l himself worked: “The labourer is worthy of his hire.” The parables concerning the talents and the vineyard speak of human labour, of human activity, of human creative gifts: man must return his talents multiplied to God (Matt, xxv, 14-30; xxi, 28-31). The activity of man must be fruitful; he is told to till the soil; he must return increased all that he has received. Nowhere does the Gospel justify passivity. Christianity established the dignity of every man, ‘fashioned in God’s image and after his likeness,’ and it opens an endless vista of perfection, a perfection not only of individuals but of social meaning. Christianity affirms that man is a spiritual being, and spirit is ever active; that is the definition of spirit. Matter is passive and inert. A spiritual being cannot but strive towards eternity, perfection, the fullness of life, and such a striving implies movement, dynamic development, activity.”

    The Desert Fathers, monasteries, and hermits, were more emphatically leisure and contemplation
     
    They worked hard in active prayer and other activities. Have you ever visited a Christian monastery? And of course in addition to praying they were building hospitals, transcribing books (incredibly time-consuming activity), tilling soil, feeding the hungry, healing the sick, etc. And in line with the Christian view of the world they were also focused on ways of harnessing the natural world through tinkering with a perpetual motion machine, alchemical experiments, etc. The scientific method came from devout Churchmen.

    And the bourgeois attitude to life – which is coterminous with the advent of modernity – is that life should be structured around “work”, that is, activities for some end, rather than activities we do for their own sake

     

    Here you are correct. The problem is that you, who are thoroughly bourgeois, believes that work is something that can only be done for some end. That nobody can possibly do work for its own sake or for anything other than raw material benefit (such as love, or inner sense of honor and duty). So you reject work, but have failed to escape your bourgeois nature.

    A bourgeois, like you, who doesn’t work in still a bourgeois, he’s just a self-indulgent and lazy one.

    So you try to deny your bourgeois nature by choosing not to work, and to live off others’ labor without laboring yourself. You engage in self-indulgence in nature, an act of consumption, and dare to compare yourself to ancient monks, an example of the status-seeking and striving that you as a bourgeois cannot escape. And arrogance.

    I’d recommend starting by picking up Jacob Burckhardts book on the Italian Renaissance
     
    Unlike you I don’t need books to know about aristocratic values and lifestyle.

    APs hospitals, schools, factories, cities, and general “complex” civilization – i.e, it is activity with an end in view
     
    It is the goal-directed and forward-focused nature of Christianity that inspires the need for development and improvement. It is what differentiates Christendom from other civilisations and explains it’s spectacular rise in this world.

    You are really lost in your materialism if you think that there is nothing in the building of hospitals and schools, creation of sanitary sewer systems, healing of the sick, technological inventions to improve all these things, other than a wish to get rich or to get status. I guess it’s a confession that if you did these things this is what would have motivated you. What emptiness and poverty.

    The purest expression of this would be contemplation and the life of leisure that implies, but going out to nature, hiking, music, art, poetry, dancing, philosophy (perhaps some kinds), literature
     
    You are the type of bourgeois who finds meaning in consumption rather than production. Which makes you a worse kind of bourgeois.

    Of course AP, I’d agree with you that building up the physical world has some value, but when you make that the primary focus of life
     
    What you fail to understand is that the meaning behind building up the physical world is what matters when determining whether or not someone is bourgeois. But that even if they are - the nice thing about the capitalist system is that within it such people’s bad instincts (striving, greed) are harnessed and used for good ends. Whereas otherwise such sins (which are universal) are not. Better for a greedy person to express his greed by working harder and producing something useful, and using the money he makes to buy someone’s attention than to express his greed by raiding a neighbor’s hut and taking his livestock and women. Or snitching on his neighbor to get him sent to a gulag and taking his apartment.

    Replies: @Wokechoke, @HeavilyMarbledSteak

    I thought I mentioned several times already that work to secure a modest living is not what I’m condemning. And I guess there’s little point in repeating that Jesus said we should give up wealth – much less work to acquire it – and not store up our treasures in this world, and that we should not be excessively preoccupied with securing food or shelter. As Dmitry said, how many times can you repeat “but you’re eating chocolate” to someone eating chocolate who insists he isn’t 🙂

    I also note that you didn’t respond to my pointing out that the highest form of prayer in the Heyschast tradition is contemplation, which is emptying the mind and doing nothing. I guess that’s just a Bolshevik slur.

    But it’s interesting that you are defending Christianity from the “slur” of not focusing on material ends – like the Bolsheviks, you accept that materialism is the yardstick of value. What a thorough modern man you are 🙂

    One of the things that irks me about political discussions these days is that all sides, left and right, argue from the same set of shared assumptions and values. It’s just rearranging pieces on a chessboard. Unz for instance is just basically a reverse image of Woke with the pieces arranged differently. We have not yet reached the stage where people question inherited assumptions and received values – but when that happens, you enter a period of true religious ferment. We are badly in need of a new Axial Age.

    But you are funny – so activity that we do for its own sake and not for some other end – like appreciating the beauty of nature – is an act of “consumption”, and of little worth, because it isn’t producing anything.

    The funny thing is, even within the capitalist paradigm whose terms you are employing, the purpose of work is so that one can consume 🙂

    The true ends of life even within the capitalist system is consumption and not productive work, which is merely a means to that end – of course, since it’s capitalism, it conception of consumption can only be in terms of material things, but even it preserves a dim echo of the correct value-hierarchy between work and consumption. We till the soil so we can eat food – not just so we can till.

    So let’s just say then I’m a defender of “consumption” as being primary, and the means to consumption secondary 🙂

    But somehow, our civilization has lost sight of that relationship. I wonder how we get like this.

    • Replies: @Barbarossa
    @HeavilyMarbledSteak


    But somehow, our civilization has lost sight of that relationship. I wonder how we get like this.
     
    A tangential thought that I often come back to...in the book of Genesis God creates things "according to their nature". This seems to signify something much deeper than just a purpose or use; something individual and intimate to each creature. So, cows are made to live by their cow nature, to eat grass, suckle their calves and roam in herds, etc. This can be articulated for any natural creature or feature. Humans have their own nature which is more unique. We take an active part in the creative function of God by our abilities to imagine and bring those ideas into physical form.

    Working in concert with the Divine Nature we can bring great things into being, but by disregarding those restraints we pervert the nature of the physical world and ourselves. So, we have feedlots for cattle or confinement pens for pigs which entirely deny them any expression of their rightful cow or pig nature. We have office buildings, porn sites, and metaverses which deny our essential human nature and needs.

    We relentlessly compartmentalize reality when it is in reality an inseparable whole. When we compartmentalize and isolate we take everything out of proper context. Then it becomes easy to twist things and deny their essential nature. A cow or a pig becomes nothing more than a protein production unit to be rendered salable for the fewest possible dollars invested. The economic concern, taken in isolation, becomes elevated to the only valid criteria to judge the value of things.

    I'm sure that the above is nothing that either you or AP hasn't considered before, but perhaps either of you will find it stated in a different enough way to provide some value to the discussion.

    Replies: @HeavilyMarbledSteak, @AP

    , @AP
    @HeavilyMarbledSteak


    And I guess there’s little point in repeating that Jesus said we should give up wealth
     
    Wealth is irrelevant, if one believes in God and uses it accordingly. A greedy sinful poor person is not better than a virtuous and generous rich one.

    I also note that you didn’t respond to my pointing out that the highest form of prayer in the Heyschast tradition is contemplation, which is emptying the mind and doing nothing
     
    I missed that. No Hesychasm is not "doing nothing" but assuming a particular pose for a long time, engaging in rhythmic breathing, and repeating the Jesus prayer while matching it to the breathing over and over again. It is too active for a lazy consumer such as you.

    If you take a few years to work on this tradition, rather than engage in your "eat pray love" tourism in the wilderness, than you will be making something of yourself.

    But it’s interesting that you are defending Christianity from the “slur” of not focusing on material ends
     
    As a hopeless materialist you can only conceive of activity and work in this world as having "material ends."

    like the Bolsheviks, you accept that materialism is the yardstick of value
     
    Don't misrepresent what I wrote. . I wrote about activity and you claim I wrote about "materialism."

    One of the things that irks me about political discussions these days is that all sides, left and right, argue from the same set of shared assumptions and values.
     
    Correction: you are incapable of seeing beyond your bourgeois nature so you falsely assume that others share your assumptions and values.

    As a bourgeois materialist you cannot conceive of activity as not having to do with "materialism."

    As a bourgeois materialist you struggle to conceive of family or marriage as not having to do with social status or transactions of some kind.

    so activity that we do for its own sake and not for some other end – like appreciating the beauty of nature – is an act of “consumption”
     
    For you, the bourgeois materialist, it is indeed so.

    Because if you cannot appreciate beauty in seemingly mundane things, even man-made things, than you are incapable of really appreciating it. So you collect rare experiences in remote places like some other bourgeois might collect shoes. It's all the same with your kind.

    even within the capitalist paradigm whose terms you are employing, the purpose of work is so that one can consume...So let’s just say then I’m a defender of “consumption” as being primary, and the means to consumption secondary
     
    At least you honestly admit it. You are a materialist bourgeois, but without even the virtue of being hard working. You are just a consumer, or parasite, of other's work. One who in his arrogance and pride compares himself to some monk.

    Replies: @HeavilyMarbledSteak

  59. @Yahya
    @Finn


    Were not the Gaels settlers or Asia minor and Greece? Ala Galatians?
     
    Is this sentence supposed to be encrypted so that no-one here can understand it?

    Your commenting history goes back 16 years; yet you only comment once every blue moon. A deep lurker.

    Interesting.

    Replies: @Leaves No Shadow

    He isn’t being cryptic at all

    “In 278 B.C., a group of Celtic immigrants crossed from the Balkans into Anatolia, or present-day Turkey. The long journey to the Bosporus from their European homeland had taken these wandering Celts, known as Galatians, through Hellenized states, where they settled temporarily as allies.”

  60. @songbird
    @Wokechoke

    I honestly do think that the probability of the Poles annexing parts of Germany is pretty high in the timeframe of the next half century. They would need to have nukes though.

    @Yahya
    Genetic distance depends on both the SNPs used and the specific individuals in the sample. That it differs very slightly between the two posts I have cited has no bearing on my point, which is that the genetic distance between Greeks and Turks is significant.

    Am puzzled by why you can't seem to accept this, even though you are not Turkish. Being open-minded and adaptable, I took it in stride, even though it went against my previous ideas. (I set aside phenotype)


    Had it not been for East Eurasian admixture; Turks would be almost identical to Greeks genetically.
     
    And there is the rub, and the source of the divisions. It is a pity that Constantinople fell. It would have prevented a lot of division and conflict, if its walls had stood.

    Deceit once again.
     
    Try to pick a different tagline. That one is already in use.

    Your “comebacks” get meeker
     
    Well, I'm trying to not be rude. (maybe, try it some time?)

    But suffice it to say that you don't understand Irishmen, if, as you keep asserting, you think that I would need to have some distant, vicarious connection to other Europeans in order to feel superior. Rather, it would suffice that I am an Irishman.

    Replies: @Yahya, @S

    Am curious, Songbird, are you familiar with the 1964 film Girl With Green Eyes?

    While the plot may be a bit lacking, something of what in Ireland might be seen as a ‘D4’ outlook towards Ireland and the Irish people I suppose, I find the many unrehearsed (relatively speaking) street and crowd scenes of interest as they are a snap-shot of Dublin at that time.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girl_with_Green_Eyes

    [MORE]

    • Replies: @Another Polish Perspective
    @S

    I saw it. Very nice movie, and a picture of charming femininity you won't meet anymore nowadays.

    Replies: @Mikel

    , @songbird
    @S


    are you familiar with the 1964 film Girl With Green Eyes?
     
    Haven't seen it, but thanks for bringing it to my attention.

    Off the top of my head, only two movies that I remember being set in Dublin:

    The Informant (1935.) A lot of people like this movie because it is directed by Ford, but something about it really rubbed me the wrong way. I almost felt it was sacrilegious how (spoiler) it seemd to try to turn the odious, titular character into a Crist-like figure. Or, at least, that is how I interpreted it.

    I guess one can look at it like a parable (or an exaggeration of real life tendencies to be faithless), and I might be being too harsh on it

    Evelyn
    (2002) Don't remember it super-well, but thought it was an okay family film. One of the shots included a place where my mother once lived. It's an unusual film because, unlike most Hollywood trash, it promotes the idea that a father loves his children and has certain rights to them.

    Replies: @S

  61. @Sher Singh
    @Ivashka the fool

    The Khalsa is the physical form of the Guru.
    I'm not really arguing just being straight forward.

    You're trying to steal my heritage because you lack your own.

    Your filthy mouth even mentioning the Guru is an insult.

    Russia was already partitioned in 1991 & let's hope the remainder are free'd from the yoke of filth like you।।

    ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫਤਿਹ

    Replies: @Ivashka the fool

    You’re trying to steal my heritage because you lack your own.

    Well, that’s just your insecurity showing up here. Nobody’s stealing anything from anyone by discussing one’s ancestry. I discussed mine, and you just jumped in for no reason other than your personal projections.

    I know my ancestry and my heritage, with which I am satisfied and which I am proud of. I wish you sincerely that one day you also do get to this point, when you don’t feel the need to write obscenities on teh internets to defend the valor of your people.

    Regarding partition of RusFed, that might happen for sure, but it has absolutely nothing to do with the subject that we discussed and which triggered your unbalanced replies.

    You seem to wrongly think that there’s a transition in power and status ongoing between your White overlords of days past and your minority group. This is not the case. You and other Brown people are simply being played and used as a tool in the elite social warfare against the middle class White sheeple as per Kalergi plan.

    The elite are well above the fray and they pull the strings. They are unreachable for both of us and they are the ones taking the kind of decisions that might lead to RusFed partition or eventual creation of the Khalistan.

    This being said, be well and don’t forget to take your pills…

    🙂

    • Agree: Sher Singh
    • Replies: @Sher Singh
    @Ivashka the fool

    https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/962333401745088552/1067170490713641150/IMG_20170612_231822.jpg

    https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/962333401745088552/1067170490478768158/Singh_GaoRakshak.png

    You're an atheist & only an atheist can be a slave.
    Aryas are neither brown nor white keep your slave name to yourself


    ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫਤਿਹ

    Replies: @Ivashka the fool

  62. I keep on wondering what is going on with immunity since Covid/ lockdowns. My own family and pretty much everyone else I know or talk to is sick far more often than pre-Covid. We used to get a cold or bug 2-3 times a year and now it seems like they just pile on top of one another. I’d say one of us feel some level of yuck more often than we are all feeling good. It’s never major, but it’s really irritating.

    It’s a giant change in a very short space, and doctors that I’ve talked to are saying that they seem to be seeing the same dynamic.

    I’ve been noticing this for a good year and a half and I attributed it to our immune systems being attenuated from lack of routine exposure to various pathogens. We and the people around us never really locked down, so I was rather surprised to be so affected.

    However, after 18 months with no noticeable change in the dynamic I’m seriously starting to wonder what else is going on and what the cumulative effects are. Has Covid just fundamentally weakened immune systems in a sustained way, or is more going on? If we do have relatively weakened immune systems going forward what can effectively be done to build them back up in a sustainable way? If our immune systems are doing a noticeably poorer job keeping pathogens from getting to a symptomatic level what implications does that have for other functions of the immune system such as eliminating cancer cells before they take hold?

    Any thoughts?

    • Replies: @Ivashka the fool
    @Barbarossa

    Yes I have noticed it as well.

    Have you had Covid and/or have you been vaxed ?

    My personal health took a major dive after having had a very mild Covid in the early days of the pandemic.

    I got vaxed twice under the peer pressure from my elderly father who had friends and associates die after being Covid infected and was very much insecure about catching the Corona.

    Each time I received the vaccine, I had an immune downdrop.

    Then I had Covid again, an even milder one, and my immunity again took a long time to come back to an acceptable level.

    I am feeling tired much often and have a few symptoms that I've read about in the "long Covid" list.

    I believe that it has to do with the depletion of some immune cells' subtype(s) due to either the toxic spike protein activity and or the antibody dependent enhancement by subsequent Covid infections.

    Quite an unpleasant state I must admit.

    Replies: @Barbarossa, @Wokechoke

    , @A123
    @Barbarossa


    I keep on wondering what is going on with immunity since Covid/ lockdowns. My own family and pretty much everyone else I know or talk to is sick far more often than pre-Covid.
     
    Two factors immediately spring to mind.

    -1- Backlog -- Things that would have been spread 12-24 months ago lingered in smaller more isolated groups. As normal interaction resumed, pockets of bugs that previously would have spread and burned out are becoming contagious in the larger pool. In a bizarre way, we were actually healthier to during the madness.

    Also, routine preventive care was diminished. There are more minor issues being identified that can be worked on.

    -2- Willingness to Report -- Five years ago minor ailments would not have sprung to mind as a topic of conversation. Now, it is much more likely to come up. Thus, the perceived count may be higher than the actual increase in events.
    ___

    As a pure blood, I have noticed no uptick in communicable disease.

    PEACE 😇

    Replies: @Barbarossa, @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms

    , @sudden death
    @Barbarossa

    One of the possible explanations, mine bolding:


    The SARS-CoV-2 infection causes severe immune disruption. However, it is unclear if disrupted immune regulation still exists and pertains in recovered COVID-19 patients. In our study, we have characterized the immune phenotype of B cells from 15 recovered COVID-19 patients, and found that healthy controls and recovered patients had similar B-cell populations before and after BCR stimulation, but the frequencies of PBC in patients were significantly increased when compared to healthy controls before stimulation. However, the percentage of unswitched memory B cells was decreased in recovered patients but not changed in healthy controls upon BCR stimulation. Interestingly, we found that CD19 expression was significantly reduced in almost all the B-cell subsets in recovered patients. Moreover, the BCR signaling and early B-cell response were disrupted upon BCR stimulation. Mechanistically, we found that the reduced CD19 expression was caused by the dysregulation of cell metabolism. In conclusion, we found that SARS-CoV-2 infection causes immunodeficiency in recovered patients by downregulating CD19 expression in B cells via enhancing B-cell metabolism, which may provide a new intervention target to cure COVID-19.

     

    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41392-021-00749-3

    Replies: @Barbarossa

    , @Mikel
    @Barbarossa


    If our immune systems are doing a noticeably poorer job keeping pathogens from getting to a symptomatic level what implications does that have for other functions of the immune system such as eliminating cancer cells before they take hold?
     
    Good question. But I wouldn't be too worried, the mechanisms must be quite different. Otherwise, people with compromised immune systems would be more prone to getting cancer and I've never heard of that being a risk factor for cancer in general. This is not my area of expertise at all though. It would be interesting to read AnonfromTN's take on this. I get the feeling that Ivashka may know a couple of things on this type of subjects too.

    For whatever it's worth, I haven't noticed much of a difference after catching a very mild form of Covid and getting the mRNA vaccine afterwards. I don't remember having caught any cold in the past couple of years but I did have a weird strep-kind of throat infection some months ago that I attributed to bugs running rampant post-Covid. As you say, it seems to be an established fact that people lost immunity during the lockdowns and mandatory masking due to lack of exposure. I've actually read about that in the news several times. Perhaps the fact that I haven't noticed much difference is due to the part of Utah where I live having always been open during the Covid scare. There were no lockdowns and masks were only mandatory in healthcare facilities. It must have been more strict in New York state.

    Glad that you brought up the topic in the safest part of Unz. Otherwise, we would have gotten an avalanche of conspiracy-themed comments, making any sane discussion impossible.

    Replies: @Barbarossa

  63. @S
    @songbird

    Am curious, Songbird, are you familiar with the 1964 film Girl With Green Eyes?

    While the plot may be a bit lacking, something of what in Ireland might be seen as a 'D4' outlook towards Ireland and the Irish people I suppose, I find the many unrehearsed (relatively speaking) street and crowd scenes of interest as they are a snap-shot of Dublin at that time.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girl_with_Green_Eyes


    https://youtu.be/mBq4VDyJMkg




    https://youtu.be/9KYFna8cwsM

    Replies: @Another Polish Perspective, @songbird

    I saw it. Very nice movie, and a picture of charming femininity you won’t meet anymore nowadays.

    • Thanks: S
    • Replies: @Mikel
    @Another Polish Perspective

    Thanks for the video you posted of Adam Strug in the previous thread. The only European folk music I've ever spent some time listening to is the Irish one but this guy produces some nice, easy to listen songs. I've spent a while listening to him this morning thanks to you.

    I remember the times, not long ago, when all you had to do to discover nice new music was just listen to the new hits on the radio. They would do the discovery work for you but unfortunately this doesn't work anymore. They only seem capable of discovering insipid or outright crappy modern music. But of course this doesn't mean that people have stopped making good music, you now have to go and find it yourself. And it looks like music produced just for local or ethnic markets is one of the best places to find it.

    This is a nice Basque song I discovered last year on youtube. Nothing that will ever become popular outside the Basque Country and not an earth-shattering hit either but so much better than anything in the latest Grammy Awards:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jELNP8NsVdk

  64. @Ivashka the fool
    @Sher Singh


    You’re trying to steal my heritage because you lack your own.
     
    Well, that's just your insecurity showing up here. Nobody's stealing anything from anyone by discussing one's ancestry. I discussed mine, and you just jumped in for no reason other than your personal projections.

    I know my ancestry and my heritage, with which I am satisfied and which I am proud of. I wish you sincerely that one day you also do get to this point, when you don't feel the need to write obscenities on teh internets to defend the valor of your people.

    Regarding partition of RusFed, that might happen for sure, but it has absolutely nothing to do with the subject that we discussed and which triggered your unbalanced replies.

    You seem to wrongly think that there's a transition in power and status ongoing between your White overlords of days past and your minority group. This is not the case. You and other Brown people are simply being played and used as a tool in the elite social warfare against the middle class White sheeple as per Kalergi plan.

    The elite are well above the fray and they pull the strings. They are unreachable for both of us and they are the ones taking the kind of decisions that might lead to RusFed partition or eventual creation of the Khalistan.

    This being said, be well and don't forget to take your pills...

    🙂

    Replies: @Sher Singh

    You’re an atheist & only an atheist can be a slave.
    Aryas are neither brown nor white keep your slave name to yourself

    ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫਤਿਹ

    • Replies: @Ivashka the fool
    @Sher Singh

    I am not an Atheist.

    Have no clue where you got this idea from. Anyone who read my comments on this forum would easily understand that I have a belief system. The fact that it doesn't match yours doesn't mean that yours is right or mine is wrong. Neither does it mean the opposite.

    But you know that already.

    You just can't quite posturing online because it feeds your ego.

    Is it the way a grown man like you truly should behave?

    Is this the way of a warrior ?

    🙂

    Replies: @Sher Singh

  65. @Barbarossa
    I keep on wondering what is going on with immunity since Covid/ lockdowns. My own family and pretty much everyone else I know or talk to is sick far more often than pre-Covid. We used to get a cold or bug 2-3 times a year and now it seems like they just pile on top of one another. I'd say one of us feel some level of yuck more often than we are all feeling good. It's never major, but it's really irritating.

    It's a giant change in a very short space, and doctors that I've talked to are saying that they seem to be seeing the same dynamic.

    I've been noticing this for a good year and a half and I attributed it to our immune systems being attenuated from lack of routine exposure to various pathogens. We and the people around us never really locked down, so I was rather surprised to be so affected.

    However, after 18 months with no noticeable change in the dynamic I'm seriously starting to wonder what else is going on and what the cumulative effects are. Has Covid just fundamentally weakened immune systems in a sustained way, or is more going on? If we do have relatively weakened immune systems going forward what can effectively be done to build them back up in a sustainable way? If our immune systems are doing a noticeably poorer job keeping pathogens from getting to a symptomatic level what implications does that have for other functions of the immune system such as eliminating cancer cells before they take hold?

    Any thoughts?

    Replies: @Ivashka the fool, @A123, @sudden death, @Mikel

    Yes I have noticed it as well.

    Have you had Covid and/or have you been vaxed ?

    My personal health took a major dive after having had a very mild Covid in the early days of the pandemic.

    I got vaxed twice under the peer pressure from my elderly father who had friends and associates die after being Covid infected and was very much insecure about catching the Corona.

    Each time I received the vaccine, I had an immune downdrop.

    Then I had Covid again, an even milder one, and my immunity again took a long time to come back to an acceptable level.

    I am feeling tired much often and have a few symptoms that I’ve read about in the “long Covid” list.

    I believe that it has to do with the depletion of some immune cells’ subtype(s) due to either the toxic spike protein activity and or the antibody dependent enhancement by subsequent Covid infections.

    Quite an unpleasant state I must admit.

    • Replies: @Barbarossa
    @Ivashka the fool

    We've all had the 'Vid at least a couple times. No Vax though. I haven't personally noticed any difference between vaxxed/unvaxxed in this phemenon, though it's hard to say.

    I know some super-crunchy, organic/natural fanatic, vax-paranoiac people that are as equally affected as average diet, vaxxed people. It doesn't seem to have much to do with the "moral purity" of one's inputs whatever the case.

    I've always been quite robust as far as immunity goes while my wife is significantly less so. It seems like no matter one's starting point it's gone a couple pegs lower. I'm still quite robust and quick to recover but am catching things with much greater frequency.

    A great number of the yucks seem to be that weird combo of gastro-intestinal disquiet along with congestion. It seems likely to be Covid of some very mild form, though I haven't bother testing. I half wonder if it is not a case of reinfection but the same infection going into remission/ breaking through.

    It almost makes me revisit some of those 5G-is-Covid conspiracies. Not that I think it's necessarily 5G, but in the aspect of wondering about other systemic factors which have altered the baseline functionality of our immune systems.

    Whatever the case it's starting to get really annoying.

    Replies: @Ivashka the fool

    , @Wokechoke
    @Ivashka the fool

    It sucks don't it? The antibody is the disease in a sense.

    Replies: @Ivashka the fool

  66. @HeavilyMarbledSteak
    @AP

    I thought I mentioned several times already that work to secure a modest living is not what I'm condemning. And I guess there's little point in repeating that Jesus said we should give up wealth - much less work to acquire it - and not store up our treasures in this world, and that we should not be excessively preoccupied with securing food or shelter. As Dmitry said, how many times can you repeat "but you're eating chocolate" to someone eating chocolate who insists he isn't :)

    I also note that you didn't respond to my pointing out that the highest form of prayer in the Heyschast tradition is contemplation, which is emptying the mind and doing nothing. I guess that's just a Bolshevik slur.

    But it's interesting that you are defending Christianity from the "slur" of not focusing on material ends - like the Bolsheviks, you accept that materialism is the yardstick of value. What a thorough modern man you are :)

    One of the things that irks me about political discussions these days is that all sides, left and right, argue from the same set of shared assumptions and values. It's just rearranging pieces on a chessboard. Unz for instance is just basically a reverse image of Woke with the pieces arranged differently. We have not yet reached the stage where people question inherited assumptions and received values - but when that happens, you enter a period of true religious ferment. We are badly in need of a new Axial Age.

    But you are funny - so activity that we do for its own sake and not for some other end - like appreciating the beauty of nature - is an act of "consumption", and of little worth, because it isn't producing anything.

    The funny thing is, even within the capitalist paradigm whose terms you are employing, the purpose of work is so that one can consume :)

    The true ends of life even within the capitalist system is consumption and not productive work, which is merely a means to that end - of course, since it's capitalism, it conception of consumption can only be in terms of material things, but even it preserves a dim echo of the correct value-hierarchy between work and consumption. We till the soil so we can eat food - not just so we can till.

    So let's just say then I'm a defender of "consumption" as being primary, and the means to consumption secondary :)

    But somehow, our civilization has lost sight of that relationship. I wonder how we get like this.

    Replies: @Barbarossa, @AP

    But somehow, our civilization has lost sight of that relationship. I wonder how we get like this.

    A tangential thought that I often come back to…in the book of Genesis God creates things “according to their nature”. This seems to signify something much deeper than just a purpose or use; something individual and intimate to each creature. So, cows are made to live by their cow nature, to eat grass, suckle their calves and roam in herds, etc. This can be articulated for any natural creature or feature. Humans have their own nature which is more unique. We take an active part in the creative function of God by our abilities to imagine and bring those ideas into physical form.

    Working in concert with the Divine Nature we can bring great things into being, but by disregarding those restraints we pervert the nature of the physical world and ourselves. So, we have feedlots for cattle or confinement pens for pigs which entirely deny them any expression of their rightful cow or pig nature. We have office buildings, porn sites, and metaverses which deny our essential human nature and needs.

    We relentlessly compartmentalize reality when it is in reality an inseparable whole. When we compartmentalize and isolate we take everything out of proper context. Then it becomes easy to twist things and deny their essential nature. A cow or a pig becomes nothing more than a protein production unit to be rendered salable for the fewest possible dollars invested. The economic concern, taken in isolation, becomes elevated to the only valid criteria to judge the value of things.

    I’m sure that the above is nothing that either you or AP hasn’t considered before, but perhaps either of you will find it stated in a different enough way to provide some value to the discussion.

    • Replies: @HeavilyMarbledSteak
    @Barbarossa

    Yes, Taoism emphasizes a similar idea that each species has been created to fulfill its own inner nature and shouldn't deviate from it.

    I'd agree with you working with nature and God to create yields the most humanly satisfying kind of society - rather than the modern notion that our job is to utterly subdue and dominate nature and create ever more complex systems.

    It seems to me I'm arguing for this more modest approach, while AP is arguing for ever more complex systems and humanity dominating nature. The desire for ever greater complexity and dominance seems to be the desire to secure the means to existence - perfectly healthy in limited doses - run amok and metastasize like a cancer.

    I would also say that our human nature reaches its highest level of fulfillment when we do things that have intrinsic value and are not means to some other end - like appreciate nature, recite poetry, listen to music, appreciate literature, contemplate God, or create beauty. This should be the central element in our lives.

    Working to secure the means to existence, while a necessary part of our life and while it can even be satisfying if the right kind of work, isn't the essence of human life, but it's adjunct.

    But in modern civilization, the adjunct has somehow taken on the central role. If you step back and really look at it, it's downright weird that this could have happened.

    , @AP
    @Barbarossa


    Humans have their own nature which is more unique. We take an active part in the creative function of God by our abilities to imagine and bring those ideas into physical form.

    Working in concert with the Divine Nature we can bring great things into being, but by disregarding those restraints we pervert the nature of the physical world and ourselves
     
    Well said.

    Since I’ve still got Berdyaev open on my browser, we see a congruence with your insight:

    “ Other historical religions, Judaism, Islam, Brahmanism, have believed in God. But Christianity, and Christianity alone, believes not only in God but in man as well, in manhood as potentially a reflection of the divine. This is the chief peculiarity of Christianity, its specific feature. It is the religion of the incarnation of the Spirit, of the transfiguration of the world; it is no rejection of the world and of mankind. Hindu religious consciousness rejects man and dissolves him in an impersonal divinity. Christianity asserts his dignity and wants to transform him and prepare him for eternity. The Church has rejected the quietism which taught that man was to be completely passive; she has also rejected the teaching which denied the activity implied in the idea of human freedom. Man can be active, victorious over the elemental forces of Nature and outside himself, the organizer and constructor of the world, only if he has within l him the spiritual basis of life which raises him above Nature….”

    “..The Gospel demands that man should be active; that he should actively perfect himself; that he should serve his neighbour actively; that he should likewise actively seek the kingdom of God…”
  67. @Barbarossa
    I keep on wondering what is going on with immunity since Covid/ lockdowns. My own family and pretty much everyone else I know or talk to is sick far more often than pre-Covid. We used to get a cold or bug 2-3 times a year and now it seems like they just pile on top of one another. I'd say one of us feel some level of yuck more often than we are all feeling good. It's never major, but it's really irritating.

    It's a giant change in a very short space, and doctors that I've talked to are saying that they seem to be seeing the same dynamic.

    I've been noticing this for a good year and a half and I attributed it to our immune systems being attenuated from lack of routine exposure to various pathogens. We and the people around us never really locked down, so I was rather surprised to be so affected.

    However, after 18 months with no noticeable change in the dynamic I'm seriously starting to wonder what else is going on and what the cumulative effects are. Has Covid just fundamentally weakened immune systems in a sustained way, or is more going on? If we do have relatively weakened immune systems going forward what can effectively be done to build them back up in a sustainable way? If our immune systems are doing a noticeably poorer job keeping pathogens from getting to a symptomatic level what implications does that have for other functions of the immune system such as eliminating cancer cells before they take hold?

    Any thoughts?

    Replies: @Ivashka the fool, @A123, @sudden death, @Mikel

    I keep on wondering what is going on with immunity since Covid/ lockdowns. My own family and pretty much everyone else I know or talk to is sick far more often than pre-Covid.

    Two factors immediately spring to mind.

    -1- Backlog — Things that would have been spread 12-24 months ago lingered in smaller more isolated groups. As normal interaction resumed, pockets of bugs that previously would have spread and burned out are becoming contagious in the larger pool. In a bizarre way, we were actually healthier to during the madness.

    Also, routine preventive care was diminished. There are more minor issues being identified that can be worked on.

    -2- Willingness to Report — Five years ago minor ailments would not have sprung to mind as a topic of conversation. Now, it is much more likely to come up. Thus, the perceived count may be higher than the actual increase in events.
    ___

    As a pure blood, I have noticed no uptick in communicable disease.

    PEACE 😇

    • Replies: @Barbarossa
    @A123

    Your first explanation has basically been the understanding that I've been operating under for the past 18 months or so. However, I would have thought (I may be wrong) that we would have started to reach a point of equilibrium again. It's making me wonder if my assumptions are somewhat mistaken.

    The other factors you mention don't seem to apply to my own sphere of experience, but I can't discount them outside of that.

    It does seem to me that having kids has a lot to due with it. People without young kids don't seem to me to be getting the recurrent colds as much as ones with.

    The best way that I can encapsulate it is that now I feel like I have my kids in public school in regards to the frequency of colds. Homeschooling, even with a fair bit of other kid contact always seemed to make us much healthier than many public schooled families we know that were constantly sick.

    Replies: @A123

    , @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms
    @A123

    and @Barbarossa

    Pure blood here as well. May have had a mild Omicron case. No other ailments to speak of.

    What do you guys think about the risk of shedding? Peter McCullough seems honed in on this idea, it seems a little too much, but...

    Thanks for everyone's comments on this.

    Replies: @A123

  68. @Sher Singh
    @Ivashka the fool

    https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/962333401745088552/1067170490713641150/IMG_20170612_231822.jpg

    https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/962333401745088552/1067170490478768158/Singh_GaoRakshak.png

    You're an atheist & only an atheist can be a slave.
    Aryas are neither brown nor white keep your slave name to yourself


    ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫਤਿਹ

    Replies: @Ivashka the fool

    I am not an Atheist.

    Have no clue where you got this idea from. Anyone who read my comments on this forum would easily understand that I have a belief system. The fact that it doesn’t match yours doesn’t mean that yours is right or mine is wrong. Neither does it mean the opposite.

    But you know that already.

    You just can’t quite posturing online because it feeds your ego.

    Is it the way a grown man like you truly should behave?

    Is this the way of a warrior ?

    🙂

    • Replies: @Sher Singh
    @Ivashka the fool

    You're an atheist because you have no consistent theos.

    I'm calling you a monkey running around blind.

    One does not engage in idol worship & claim to speak for the Abrahamics.

    Your misappropriation or claimed affiliations with our Dharma while being a malesh (cow killer) is similar.

    Have been very straightforward in telling you the issue why it's an issue, and the solution to resolve the conflict.

    --
    As it is still unclear then genocide is the only solution as you & w/e you represent or come from are unfit for human habitation.

    ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫਤਿਹ

    Replies: @Ivashka the fool, @Barbarossa

  69. @Barbarossa
    I keep on wondering what is going on with immunity since Covid/ lockdowns. My own family and pretty much everyone else I know or talk to is sick far more often than pre-Covid. We used to get a cold or bug 2-3 times a year and now it seems like they just pile on top of one another. I'd say one of us feel some level of yuck more often than we are all feeling good. It's never major, but it's really irritating.

    It's a giant change in a very short space, and doctors that I've talked to are saying that they seem to be seeing the same dynamic.

    I've been noticing this for a good year and a half and I attributed it to our immune systems being attenuated from lack of routine exposure to various pathogens. We and the people around us never really locked down, so I was rather surprised to be so affected.

    However, after 18 months with no noticeable change in the dynamic I'm seriously starting to wonder what else is going on and what the cumulative effects are. Has Covid just fundamentally weakened immune systems in a sustained way, or is more going on? If we do have relatively weakened immune systems going forward what can effectively be done to build them back up in a sustainable way? If our immune systems are doing a noticeably poorer job keeping pathogens from getting to a symptomatic level what implications does that have for other functions of the immune system such as eliminating cancer cells before they take hold?

    Any thoughts?

    Replies: @Ivashka the fool, @A123, @sudden death, @Mikel

    One of the possible explanations, mine bolding:

    The SARS-CoV-2 infection causes severe immune disruption. However, it is unclear if disrupted immune regulation still exists and pertains in recovered COVID-19 patients. In our study, we have characterized the immune phenotype of B cells from 15 recovered COVID-19 patients, and found that healthy controls and recovered patients had similar B-cell populations before and after BCR stimulation, but the frequencies of PBC in patients were significantly increased when compared to healthy controls before stimulation. However, the percentage of unswitched memory B cells was decreased in recovered patients but not changed in healthy controls upon BCR stimulation. Interestingly, we found that CD19 expression was significantly reduced in almost all the B-cell subsets in recovered patients. Moreover, the BCR signaling and early B-cell response were disrupted upon BCR stimulation. Mechanistically, we found that the reduced CD19 expression was caused by the dysregulation of cell metabolism. In conclusion, we found that SARS-CoV-2 infection causes immunodeficiency in recovered patients by downregulating CD19 expression in B cells via enhancing B-cell metabolism, which may provide a new intervention target to cure COVID-19.

    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41392-021-00749-3

    • Replies: @Barbarossa
    @sudden death

    The article is more technical than I can fully understand. However, my idiot/ layman's takeaway is as follows.

    Covid short circuits the immune system's memory pathways in unusual ways (cellular metabolic hyperactivity) to avoid detection. At the time the article was written (September 2021) they were unsure if that deficiency in immune system memory applied to future Covid infections or to infections caused by other causes.

    Anyone with more technical knowledge can please feel free to correct me. I also did a bit of additional looking and it seems like there is not much additional certainty out there to expand on that article.

    I'll do a little spitballing. Perhaps some of the recurrent mild colds are due to an overactive immune system response not an underactive one and are basically immune system over-reactions to what never would have registered previously as illnesses.

    I'm also thinking about my pre-Covid experience contrasted with some public schooled families. We live in a rural/ farm environment and are quite social which seems as though it would be a pretty good recipe for broad based immune system building without excessive exposure. This seemed to bear out with the infrequency of illnesses.

    Perhaps the problem with the public school environment is that it is too much of a petri dish and the much greater exposure load is often too much and causes some level of immune response hyperactivity and exhaustion.

    If true maybe a similar effect is at work with Covid. The side effects of immune system hyperactivity that Covid seems likely to cause could be over stressing and over stimulating many of our immune systems. The immune system hyperactivity could be giving a foothold that other infections are exploiting, the spread of which overstimulates our immune system yet again.

    Perhaps we are seeing a cascading effect of overstimulated and flailing immune systems which will take quite a while to fully settle out.

    At any rate it seems my previous spitballing on cancer incidences would likely be incorrect, but it seems likely that we will see a spike in autoimmune issues.

    Replies: @Ivashka the fool

  70. @Barbarossa
    @HeavilyMarbledSteak


    But somehow, our civilization has lost sight of that relationship. I wonder how we get like this.
     
    A tangential thought that I often come back to...in the book of Genesis God creates things "according to their nature". This seems to signify something much deeper than just a purpose or use; something individual and intimate to each creature. So, cows are made to live by their cow nature, to eat grass, suckle their calves and roam in herds, etc. This can be articulated for any natural creature or feature. Humans have their own nature which is more unique. We take an active part in the creative function of God by our abilities to imagine and bring those ideas into physical form.

    Working in concert with the Divine Nature we can bring great things into being, but by disregarding those restraints we pervert the nature of the physical world and ourselves. So, we have feedlots for cattle or confinement pens for pigs which entirely deny them any expression of their rightful cow or pig nature. We have office buildings, porn sites, and metaverses which deny our essential human nature and needs.

    We relentlessly compartmentalize reality when it is in reality an inseparable whole. When we compartmentalize and isolate we take everything out of proper context. Then it becomes easy to twist things and deny their essential nature. A cow or a pig becomes nothing more than a protein production unit to be rendered salable for the fewest possible dollars invested. The economic concern, taken in isolation, becomes elevated to the only valid criteria to judge the value of things.

    I'm sure that the above is nothing that either you or AP hasn't considered before, but perhaps either of you will find it stated in a different enough way to provide some value to the discussion.

    Replies: @HeavilyMarbledSteak, @AP

    Yes, Taoism emphasizes a similar idea that each species has been created to fulfill its own inner nature and shouldn’t deviate from it.

    I’d agree with you working with nature and God to create yields the most humanly satisfying kind of society – rather than the modern notion that our job is to utterly subdue and dominate nature and create ever more complex systems.

    It seems to me I’m arguing for this more modest approach, while AP is arguing for ever more complex systems and humanity dominating nature. The desire for ever greater complexity and dominance seems to be the desire to secure the means to existence – perfectly healthy in limited doses – run amok and metastasize like a cancer.

    I would also say that our human nature reaches its highest level of fulfillment when we do things that have intrinsic value and are not means to some other end – like appreciate nature, recite poetry, listen to music, appreciate literature, contemplate God, or create beauty. This should be the central element in our lives.

    Working to secure the means to existence, while a necessary part of our life and while it can even be satisfying if the right kind of work, isn’t the essence of human life, but it’s adjunct.

    But in modern civilization, the adjunct has somehow taken on the central role. If you step back and really look at it, it’s downright weird that this could have happened.

  71. @Ivashka the fool
    Absolutely. That's normal and should be expected. Anyone who would have read Giovanni Arrighi would easily understand this.


    Gramsci's concept of hegemony is applied to interstate relations to account for both the invariance and the evolution of the modern world-system from its beginnings in Late-Medieval Europe to our days. It is argued that what made the United Provinces, the United Kingdom, and the United States hegemonic in their respective "worlds" was not their military might or superior command over scarce resources as such, but their predispositions and capabilities to use either or both to solve the problems over which system-wide conflicts raged. The changes in the nature of these problems and, therefore, in the conditions of the rise and decline of world hegemonies are explored, and some provisional hypotheses concerning the future of the modern world-system are advanced.
     
    https://www.jstor.org/stable/40241160

    Replies: @Ivashka the fool, @S

    It is argued that what made the United Provinces, the United Kingdom, and the United States hegemonic in their respective “worlds” was not their military might or superior command over scarce resources as such, but their predispositions and capabilities to use either or both to solve the problems over which system-wide conflicts raged.

    Thanks for the intriguing excerpt and link.

    In regards to the linked paper’s title, The Three Hegemonies of Historical Capitalism, I’m reminded of how I once heard the United Provinces and the United States tellingly referred to as ‘commercial republics’.

    All things considered, I suppose the United Kingdom could be said to be an honorary commercial republic. 🙂

    • Replies: @Ivashka the fool
    @S

    The United Kingdom was the link below the Netherlands and America. However, Arrighi has argued that Capitalism was not invented in Holland, but in Renaissance Italy. That it is Venice which was the original "commercial republic".

  72. @Yahya
    @songbird


    which is that the genetic distance between Greeks and Turks is significant.
     
    Not as significant as between Greeks and Irish though.

    Doesn’t stop you from thinking Alexander was one of yours.


    ut suffice it to say that you don’t understand Irishmen, if, as you keep asserting, you think that I would need to have some distant, vicarious connection to other Europeans in order to feel superior. Rather, it would suffice that I am an Irishman.
     
    Lol, you only ever mention your Irish heritage once every blue moon. It took me a whole year to find out about your Irish background. I bet many people here would not have known either, had I not called you a Celtic sack of shit some time ago.

    From how possessive you seem about Germany, opining constantly on their internal politics as if you were one of them, I thought you may actually be German. But no, it turns out you don’t have single ounce of German blood in you. You just LARP from your mother’s basement somewhere in New England.

    I remember a comical comment you made once, in the very early days, saying “It gets awfully tiresome, when for example you’re being called “white British” by colonists.”

    That’s when I knew you were a delusional nut. Your comments since then have only reinforced my impression.

    Replies: @Sher Singh, @songbird

    Doesn’t stop you from thinking Alexander was one of yours.

    Not sure that you understand your own thoughts, let alone those of others. My honest evaluation is that you have consistently demonstrated bad theory of mind, perhaps due to a lack of ability to sympathize – in a single word, narcissism.

    [MORE]

    One of your most recent examples:

    From how possessive you seem about Germany, opining constantly on their internal politics as if you were one of them, I thought you may actually be German. But no, it turns out you don’t have single ounce of German blood in you.

    Maybe, I sympathize with Germans because I have known a lot of them and liked them? But you, with your fragile ego (such as all narcissists have) immediately interpret it as me promoting the übermensch, and feel shaken to your core because I have not expressed similar sentiments about Arabs.

    I remember a comical comment you made once

    Not as funny when you warned that Orban was going to start the Fourth Reich because he was against open borders, and trying to promote traditional values, and natalism. Saying that you understood it all because you had read Rise of the Third Reich or something, as if that made you some special scholar. LMAO.

    BTW, now that Orban has been re-elected to his fourth consecutive term, just when do you expect that he will put his plan for world dom into operation? When will Hungary, nation of <10 million, send its tanks sweeping East and West, then across North Africa, to put Arabs in their place?

    That's pretty embarrassing, man. No wonder you denied you said it, and hid your commenting history.

    I remember a comical comment you made once, in the very early days, saying “It gets awfully tiresome, when for example you’re being called “white British” by colonists.”

    My commenting history is open. I guess if I said that, using those words, then you can link to it. At least, if you are not lying through your teeth, or a paranoid schizo.

    BTW, you think it is positive to try to deracinate Europeans living in their native countries, by letting others steal their ethnic identity, and then labeling them white? I don’t and that was my obvious point, which you bizarrely took issue with, so much so that my comment is still living in your head years later, at least with its image distorted, like one of Salvador Dalí’s clocks, twisted by your strange inferiority complex.

    Lol, you only ever mention your Irish heritage once every blue moon.

    Has to be the dumbest thing you have ever said. I’ve always been open about my identity, correcting numerous people who have misapprehended me, and encouraging others to disclose their ethnic biases. I would be in favor of headers with flags.

    I have 13 pages mentioning “Irish”, 16 “Ireland.” Don’t blame me, if you assumed wrongly, and build an imaginary identity for me, without bothering to ask me.

    You called me a Nazi, without even asking anything about me. That was soon after you said that America isn’t accommodating enough to immigrants, and that you knew what it was like to be one and to feel alienated because you were a student here.

    You just LARP from your mother’s basement somewhere in New England.

    It is funny you keep saying this. What is it like being trained to be an Arab Saudi Aramco engineer?

    • Replies: @Yahya
    @songbird


    Maybe, I sympathize with Germans because I have known a lot of them and liked them?
     
    You don’t just sympathize with Germans; you are actively obsessed with them; almost as if you are a German. No American here goes around behaving in the same manner - except for the neo-nazis. Just look at your comments from this very thread “But I think the absolute height of this is when they were shouting “Free the Leopards!” in Berlin. Even if they weren’t German, couldn’t they have bothered to learn it in German?”

    LOL. You even keep track of Leopard protests in Berlin. And get all upset when people chant in a non-German language. Seriously, you think any sane, non-Nazi American would ever bother himself with some random protest in Germany? How many Americans do you think even know of this event? Again, you opine on these matters as if you were a German. Just very strange behavior.

    Exhibit 2: When I specifically talked about Irish-Greek genetic distance; you shifted, almost by impulse, to GERMANS.


    and feel shaken to your core because I have not expressed similar sentiments about Arabs.
     
    What a stupid assertion. The last thing I’d want is for you to obsess and identify with Arabs the same way you do Germans. It would be the gravest calamity to befall the Arab peoples since the 67’ conflict. Once we admit you into the club (or rather, you insert yourself into ours; as you do with Germans), it’s pretty much game over. May as well give over all the land to Israel. We won’t deserve it.

    You have to be about the most counter-productive activist for white interests. Your mere existence points to a certain defective gene running through your people.


    That's pretty embarrassing, man. No wonder you denied you said it, and hid your commenting history.
     
    Stupid assertion no. 2. I hid my commenting history because of certain comments I made in relation to my (authoritarian) government. Nothing to do with Orban.

    Not as funny when you warned that Orban was going to start the Fourth Reich because he was against open borders, and trying to promote traditional values, and natalism
     
    Putting words in my mouth, especially with regard to that comment, for what has to be the 3rd for 4th time. You just never learn, do you?

    My commenting history is open. I guess if I said that, using those words, then you can link to it. At least, if you are not lying through your teeth, or a paranoid schizo.
     
    I can in fact link to it. Here is your typically whiny, resentment-fueled, goofball comment: https://www.unz.com/anepigone/wipe-well/#comment-3796783

    I really wish that PoC would stop using the word “white.” It gets awfully tiresome, when for example you’re being called “white British” by colonists. I’d never dream of moving to Arabia without so much as a “how do you do?” and then calling myself an Arab, and the natives there “brown Arabs.” That’d just be obnoxious, and I have more pride than that, to masquerade as some other people, while stealing their identity.
     
    Because unlike you, I don’t twist or put words in people’s mouths. You think I would actually need to lie about you saying something, to make you look bad? Your retarded comments speak for themselves.

    I have 13 pages mentioning “Irish”, 16 “Ireland.” Don’t blame me, if you assumed wrongly, and build an imaginary identity for me, without bothering to ask me.
     
    Lol, you have 25 PAGES mentioning “German” and 22 mentioning “Germany”.

    Replies: @Wokechoke

  73. @Another Polish Perspective
    @S

    I saw it. Very nice movie, and a picture of charming femininity you won't meet anymore nowadays.

    Replies: @Mikel

    Thanks for the video you posted of Adam Strug in the previous thread. The only European folk music I’ve ever spent some time listening to is the Irish one but this guy produces some nice, easy to listen songs. I’ve spent a while listening to him this morning thanks to you.

    I remember the times, not long ago, when all you had to do to discover nice new music was just listen to the new hits on the radio. They would do the discovery work for you but unfortunately this doesn’t work anymore. They only seem capable of discovering insipid or outright crappy modern music. But of course this doesn’t mean that people have stopped making good music, you now have to go and find it yourself. And it looks like music produced just for local or ethnic markets is one of the best places to find it.

    This is a nice Basque song I discovered last year on youtube. Nothing that will ever become popular outside the Basque Country and not an earth-shattering hit either but so much better than anything in the latest Grammy Awards:

  74. @S
    @songbird

    Am curious, Songbird, are you familiar with the 1964 film Girl With Green Eyes?

    While the plot may be a bit lacking, something of what in Ireland might be seen as a 'D4' outlook towards Ireland and the Irish people I suppose, I find the many unrehearsed (relatively speaking) street and crowd scenes of interest as they are a snap-shot of Dublin at that time.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girl_with_Green_Eyes


    https://youtu.be/mBq4VDyJMkg




    https://youtu.be/9KYFna8cwsM

    Replies: @Another Polish Perspective, @songbird

    are you familiar with the 1964 film Girl With Green Eyes?

    Haven’t seen it, but thanks for bringing it to my attention.

    Off the top of my head, only two movies that I remember being set in Dublin:

    The Informant (1935.) A lot of people like this movie because it is directed by Ford, but something about it really rubbed me the wrong way. I almost felt it was sacrilegious how (spoiler)

    [MORE]
    it seemd to try to turn the odious, titular character into a Crist-like figure. Or, at least, that is how I interpreted it.

    I guess one can look at it like a parable (or an exaggeration of real life tendencies to be faithless), and I might be being too harsh on it

    Evelyn
    (2002) Don’t remember it super-well, but thought it was an okay family film. One of the shots included a place where my mother once lived. It’s an unusual film because, unlike most Hollywood trash, it promotes the idea that a father loves his children and has certain rights to them.

    • Replies: @S
    @songbird


    Evelyn (2002) Don’t remember it super-well, but thought it was an okay family film. One of the shots included a place where my mother once lived. It’s an unusual film because, unlike most Hollywood trash, it promotes the idea that a father loves his children and has certain rights to them.
     
    Not many films do that now, true.

    Am reminded a bit of the 'beloved husband and wife' scene from the 1976 film Logan's Run. This may have been just a cynical sop, but it's a powerful scene, all the same.


    https://youtu.be/EBaMUs56SI4


    From the same movie, starting at 3:52, people for the first time in their lives see an old man. This was just after their materialistic, hedonistic, and completely youth oriented society had imploded.


    https://youtu.be/kn6e2ZEWYoQ

  75. @S
    @Ivashka the fool


    It is argued that what made the United Provinces, the United Kingdom, and the United States hegemonic in their respective “worlds” was not their military might or superior command over scarce resources as such, but their predispositions and capabilities to use either or both to solve the problems over which system-wide conflicts raged.
     
    Thanks for the intriguing excerpt and link.

    In regards to the linked paper's title, The Three Hegemonies of Historical Capitalism, I'm reminded of how I once heard the United Provinces and the United States tellingly referred to as 'commercial republics'.

    All things considered, I suppose the United Kingdom could be said to be an honorary commercial republic. :-)

    Replies: @Ivashka the fool

    The United Kingdom was the link below the Netherlands and America. However, Arrighi has argued that Capitalism was not invented in Holland, but in Renaissance Italy. That it is Venice which was the original “commercial republic”.

    • Thanks: S
  76. @Ivashka the fool
    @Barbarossa

    Yes I have noticed it as well.

    Have you had Covid and/or have you been vaxed ?

    My personal health took a major dive after having had a very mild Covid in the early days of the pandemic.

    I got vaxed twice under the peer pressure from my elderly father who had friends and associates die after being Covid infected and was very much insecure about catching the Corona.

    Each time I received the vaccine, I had an immune downdrop.

    Then I had Covid again, an even milder one, and my immunity again took a long time to come back to an acceptable level.

    I am feeling tired much often and have a few symptoms that I've read about in the "long Covid" list.

    I believe that it has to do with the depletion of some immune cells' subtype(s) due to either the toxic spike protein activity and or the antibody dependent enhancement by subsequent Covid infections.

    Quite an unpleasant state I must admit.

    Replies: @Barbarossa, @Wokechoke

    We’ve all had the ‘Vid at least a couple times. No Vax though. I haven’t personally noticed any difference between vaxxed/unvaxxed in this phemenon, though it’s hard to say.

    I know some super-crunchy, organic/natural fanatic, vax-paranoiac people that are as equally affected as average diet, vaxxed people. It doesn’t seem to have much to do with the “moral purity” of one’s inputs whatever the case.

    I’ve always been quite robust as far as immunity goes while my wife is significantly less so. It seems like no matter one’s starting point it’s gone a couple pegs lower. I’m still quite robust and quick to recover but am catching things with much greater frequency.

    A great number of the yucks seem to be that weird combo of gastro-intestinal disquiet along with congestion. It seems likely to be Covid of some very mild form, though I haven’t bother testing. I half wonder if it is not a case of reinfection but the same infection going into remission/ breaking through.

    It almost makes me revisit some of those 5G-is-Covid conspiracies. Not that I think it’s necessarily 5G, but in the aspect of wondering about other systemic factors which have altered the baseline functionality of our immune systems.

    Whatever the case it’s starting to get really annoying.

    • Replies: @Ivashka the fool
    @Barbarossa


    Whatever the case it’s starting to get really annoying.
     
    It truly is. I believe what sudden death posted in reply to your question might be a better explanation than ADE causing immunodeficiency by killing a subset of immune cells. I will read the article he has provided the link to. Many thanks to sudden death for posting it.
  77. @songbird
    Often feel weirded out by protests in Continental Europe where they are shouting slogans in English. But I think the absolute height of this is when they were shouting "Free the Leopards!" in Berlin.

    Even if they weren't German, couldn't they have bothered to learn it in German?

    Perhaps, it is all a Machiavellian move by the Poles to increase their armor advantage even more.

    Replies: @Wokechoke, @S

    Often feel weirded out by protests in Continental Europe where they are shouting slogans in English. But I think the absolute height of this is when they were shouting “Free the Leopards!” in Berlin.

    The Germans, too, are a bit ‘weirded’ out about it.

    • Agree: songbird
  78. @A123
    @Barbarossa


    I keep on wondering what is going on with immunity since Covid/ lockdowns. My own family and pretty much everyone else I know or talk to is sick far more often than pre-Covid.
     
    Two factors immediately spring to mind.

    -1- Backlog -- Things that would have been spread 12-24 months ago lingered in smaller more isolated groups. As normal interaction resumed, pockets of bugs that previously would have spread and burned out are becoming contagious in the larger pool. In a bizarre way, we were actually healthier to during the madness.

    Also, routine preventive care was diminished. There are more minor issues being identified that can be worked on.

    -2- Willingness to Report -- Five years ago minor ailments would not have sprung to mind as a topic of conversation. Now, it is much more likely to come up. Thus, the perceived count may be higher than the actual increase in events.
    ___

    As a pure blood, I have noticed no uptick in communicable disease.

    PEACE 😇

    Replies: @Barbarossa, @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms

    Your first explanation has basically been the understanding that I’ve been operating under for the past 18 months or so. However, I would have thought (I may be wrong) that we would have started to reach a point of equilibrium again. It’s making me wonder if my assumptions are somewhat mistaken.

    The other factors you mention don’t seem to apply to my own sphere of experience, but I can’t discount them outside of that.

    It does seem to me that having kids has a lot to due with it. People without young kids don’t seem to me to be getting the recurrent colds as much as ones with.

    The best way that I can encapsulate it is that now I feel like I have my kids in public school in regards to the frequency of colds. Homeschooling, even with a fair bit of other kid contact always seemed to make us much healthier than many public schooled families we know that were constantly sick.

    • Replies: @A123
    @Barbarossa

    Thanks.

    One additional thing springs to mind. Do people seem flabbier than they have in the past?

    I am carrying about 5-10 extra pounds versus my pre WUHAN-19 weight. I suspect others have had similar gains. This could also contribute to more often or more intense "crud" as you out it.

    My only recent gripe is a minor back injury. Perhaps the excess weight weakened me up a bit.

    PEACE 😇

    Replies: @A123

  79. @Ivashka the fool
    @Barbarossa

    Yes I have noticed it as well.

    Have you had Covid and/or have you been vaxed ?

    My personal health took a major dive after having had a very mild Covid in the early days of the pandemic.

    I got vaxed twice under the peer pressure from my elderly father who had friends and associates die after being Covid infected and was very much insecure about catching the Corona.

    Each time I received the vaccine, I had an immune downdrop.

    Then I had Covid again, an even milder one, and my immunity again took a long time to come back to an acceptable level.

    I am feeling tired much often and have a few symptoms that I've read about in the "long Covid" list.

    I believe that it has to do with the depletion of some immune cells' subtype(s) due to either the toxic spike protein activity and or the antibody dependent enhancement by subsequent Covid infections.

    Quite an unpleasant state I must admit.

    Replies: @Barbarossa, @Wokechoke

    It sucks don’t it? The antibody is the disease in a sense.

    • Replies: @Ivashka the fool
    @Wokechoke

    Well, as I wrote, it started after the first Covid infection. I did not get the vaccine for nearly a year or so. But I had lingering symptoms, despite the Covid itself being very mild. It might be the spike protein acting as a co-receptor and interacting with some receptor on the lymphocyte B cells, which would explain the drop of immune function after both the i fection and every shot of the vax. I will look into it on NCBI. Not that it is going to change anything even if I understand what really is going on. I'm just being curious about it.

  80. @Barbarossa
    @Ivashka the fool

    We've all had the 'Vid at least a couple times. No Vax though. I haven't personally noticed any difference between vaxxed/unvaxxed in this phemenon, though it's hard to say.

    I know some super-crunchy, organic/natural fanatic, vax-paranoiac people that are as equally affected as average diet, vaxxed people. It doesn't seem to have much to do with the "moral purity" of one's inputs whatever the case.

    I've always been quite robust as far as immunity goes while my wife is significantly less so. It seems like no matter one's starting point it's gone a couple pegs lower. I'm still quite robust and quick to recover but am catching things with much greater frequency.

    A great number of the yucks seem to be that weird combo of gastro-intestinal disquiet along with congestion. It seems likely to be Covid of some very mild form, though I haven't bother testing. I half wonder if it is not a case of reinfection but the same infection going into remission/ breaking through.

    It almost makes me revisit some of those 5G-is-Covid conspiracies. Not that I think it's necessarily 5G, but in the aspect of wondering about other systemic factors which have altered the baseline functionality of our immune systems.

    Whatever the case it's starting to get really annoying.

    Replies: @Ivashka the fool

    Whatever the case it’s starting to get really annoying.

    It truly is. I believe what sudden death posted in reply to your question might be a better explanation than ADE causing immunodeficiency by killing a subset of immune cells. I will read the article he has provided the link to. Many thanks to sudden death for posting it.

  81. @songbird
    @Yahya


    Doesn’t stop you from thinking Alexander was one of yours.
     
    Not sure that you understand your own thoughts, let alone those of others. My honest evaluation is that you have consistently demonstrated bad theory of mind, perhaps due to a lack of ability to sympathize - in a single word, narcissism.

    One of your most recent examples:

    From how possessive you seem about Germany, opining constantly on their internal politics as if you were one of them, I thought you may actually be German. But no, it turns out you don’t have single ounce of German blood in you.
     
    Maybe, I sympathize with Germans because I have known a lot of them and liked them? But you, with your fragile ego (such as all narcissists have) immediately interpret it as me promoting the übermensch, and feel shaken to your core because I have not expressed similar sentiments about Arabs.

    I remember a comical comment you made once
     
    Not as funny when you warned that Orban was going to start the Fourth Reich because he was against open borders, and trying to promote traditional values, and natalism. Saying that you understood it all because you had read Rise of the Third Reich or something, as if that made you some special scholar. LMAO.

    BTW, now that Orban has been re-elected to his fourth consecutive term, just when do you expect that he will put his plan for world dom into operation? When will Hungary, nation of <10 million, send its tanks sweeping East and West, then across North Africa, to put Arabs in their place?

    That's pretty embarrassing, man. No wonder you denied you said it, and hid your commenting history.


    I remember a comical comment you made once, in the very early days, saying “It gets awfully tiresome, when for example you’re being called “white British” by colonists.”
     
    My commenting history is open. I guess if I said that, using those words, then you can link to it. At least, if you are not lying through your teeth, or a paranoid schizo.

    BTW, you think it is positive to try to deracinate Europeans living in their native countries, by letting others steal their ethnic identity, and then labeling them white? I don't and that was my obvious point, which you bizarrely took issue with, so much so that my comment is still living in your head years later, at least with its image distorted, like one of Salvador Dalí's clocks, twisted by your strange inferiority complex.

    Lol, you only ever mention your Irish heritage once every blue moon.
     
    Has to be the dumbest thing you have ever said. I've always been open about my identity, correcting numerous people who have misapprehended me, and encouraging others to disclose their ethnic biases. I would be in favor of headers with flags.

    I have 13 pages mentioning "Irish", 16 "Ireland." Don't blame me, if you assumed wrongly, and build an imaginary identity for me, without bothering to ask me.

    You called me a Nazi, without even asking anything about me. That was soon after you said that America isn't accommodating enough to immigrants, and that you knew what it was like to be one and to feel alienated because you were a student here.

    You just LARP from your mother’s basement somewhere in New England.
     
    It is funny you keep saying this. What is it like being trained to be an Arab Saudi Aramco engineer?

    https://youtu.be/d7TV0bRmOtY

    Replies: @Yahya

    Maybe, I sympathize with Germans because I have known a lot of them and liked them?

    You don’t just sympathize with Germans; you are actively obsessed with them; almost as if you are a German. No American here goes around behaving in the same manner – except for the neo-nazis. Just look at your comments from this very thread “But I think the absolute height of this is when they were shouting “Free the Leopards!” in Berlin. Even if they weren’t German, couldn’t they have bothered to learn it in German?”

    LOL. You even keep track of Leopard protests in Berlin. And get all upset when people chant in a non-German language. Seriously, you think any sane, non-Nazi American would ever bother himself with some random protest in Germany? How many Americans do you think even know of this event? Again, you opine on these matters as if you were a German. Just very strange behavior.

    Exhibit 2: When I specifically talked about Irish-Greek genetic distance; you shifted, almost by impulse, to GERMANS.

    [MORE]

    and feel shaken to your core because I have not expressed similar sentiments about Arabs.

    What a stupid assertion. The last thing I’d want is for you to obsess and identify with Arabs the same way you do Germans. It would be the gravest calamity to befall the Arab peoples since the 67’ conflict. Once we admit you into the club (or rather, you insert yourself into ours; as you do with Germans), it’s pretty much game over. May as well give over all the land to Israel. We won’t deserve it.

    You have to be about the most counter-productive activist for white interests. Your mere existence points to a certain defective gene running through your people.

    That’s pretty embarrassing, man. No wonder you denied you said it, and hid your commenting history.

    Stupid assertion no. 2. I hid my commenting history because of certain comments I made in relation to my (authoritarian) government. Nothing to do with Orban.

    Not as funny when you warned that Orban was going to start the Fourth Reich because he was against open borders, and trying to promote traditional values, and natalism

    Putting words in my mouth, especially with regard to that comment, for what has to be the 3rd for 4th time. You just never learn, do you?

    My commenting history is open. I guess if I said that, using those words, then you can link to it. At least, if you are not lying through your teeth, or a paranoid schizo.

    I can in fact link to it. Here is your typically whiny, resentment-fueled, goofball comment: https://www.unz.com/anepigone/wipe-well/#comment-3796783

    I really wish that PoC would stop using the word “white.” It gets awfully tiresome, when for example you’re being called “white British” by colonists. I’d never dream of moving to Arabia without so much as a “how do you do?” and then calling myself an Arab, and the natives there “brown Arabs.” That’d just be obnoxious, and I have more pride than that, to masquerade as some other people, while stealing their identity.

    Because unlike you, I don’t twist or put words in people’s mouths. You think I would actually need to lie about you saying something, to make you look bad? Your retarded comments speak for themselves.

    I have 13 pages mentioning “Irish”, 16 “Ireland.” Don’t blame me, if you assumed wrongly, and build an imaginary identity for me, without bothering to ask me.

    Lol, you have 25 PAGES mentioning “German” and 22 mentioning “Germany”.

    • Replies: @Wokechoke
    @Yahya

    Release Guderian!

  82. @Wokechoke
    @Ivashka the fool

    It sucks don't it? The antibody is the disease in a sense.

    Replies: @Ivashka the fool

    Well, as I wrote, it started after the first Covid infection. I did not get the vaccine for nearly a year or so. But I had lingering symptoms, despite the Covid itself being very mild. It might be the spike protein acting as a co-receptor and interacting with some receptor on the lymphocyte B cells, which would explain the drop of immune function after both the i fection and every shot of the vax. I will look into it on NCBI. Not that it is going to change anything even if I understand what really is going on. I’m just being curious about it.

  83. @Barbarossa
    @HeavilyMarbledSteak


    But somehow, our civilization has lost sight of that relationship. I wonder how we get like this.
     
    A tangential thought that I often come back to...in the book of Genesis God creates things "according to their nature". This seems to signify something much deeper than just a purpose or use; something individual and intimate to each creature. So, cows are made to live by their cow nature, to eat grass, suckle their calves and roam in herds, etc. This can be articulated for any natural creature or feature. Humans have their own nature which is more unique. We take an active part in the creative function of God by our abilities to imagine and bring those ideas into physical form.

    Working in concert with the Divine Nature we can bring great things into being, but by disregarding those restraints we pervert the nature of the physical world and ourselves. So, we have feedlots for cattle or confinement pens for pigs which entirely deny them any expression of their rightful cow or pig nature. We have office buildings, porn sites, and metaverses which deny our essential human nature and needs.

    We relentlessly compartmentalize reality when it is in reality an inseparable whole. When we compartmentalize and isolate we take everything out of proper context. Then it becomes easy to twist things and deny their essential nature. A cow or a pig becomes nothing more than a protein production unit to be rendered salable for the fewest possible dollars invested. The economic concern, taken in isolation, becomes elevated to the only valid criteria to judge the value of things.

    I'm sure that the above is nothing that either you or AP hasn't considered before, but perhaps either of you will find it stated in a different enough way to provide some value to the discussion.

    Replies: @HeavilyMarbledSteak, @AP

    Humans have their own nature which is more unique. We take an active part in the creative function of God by our abilities to imagine and bring those ideas into physical form.

    Working in concert with the Divine Nature we can bring great things into being, but by disregarding those restraints we pervert the nature of the physical world and ourselves

    Well said.

    Since I’ve still got Berdyaev open on my browser, we see a congruence with your insight:

    “ Other historical religions, Judaism, Islam, Brahmanism, have believed in God. But Christianity, and Christianity alone, believes not only in God but in man as well, in manhood as potentially a reflection of the divine. This is the chief peculiarity of Christianity, its specific feature. It is the religion of the incarnation of the Spirit, of the transfiguration of the world; it is no rejection of the world and of mankind. Hindu religious consciousness rejects man and dissolves him in an impersonal divinity. Christianity asserts his dignity and wants to transform him and prepare him for eternity. The Church has rejected the quietism which taught that man was to be completely passive; she has also rejected the teaching which denied the activity implied in the idea of human freedom. Man can be active, victorious over the elemental forces of Nature and outside himself, the organizer and constructor of the world, only if he has within l him the spiritual basis of life which raises him above Nature….”

    “..The Gospel demands that man should be active; that he should actively perfect himself; that he should serve his neighbour actively; that he should likewise actively seek the kingdom of God…”

  84. @Sher Singh
    @Yahya

    Wait is he seriously claiming Alexander?
    @songbird I thought that was a troll.

    American whites and blacks claim everyone's history tbh.
    There's an Afro & Euro centric Kang tale about everything.

    Replies: @songbird, @Yahya

    Wait is he seriously claiming Alexander?.

    Afraid Yahya has slipped his straight-jacket

    Perhaps, he went to embrace some Spanish tourists, and they shirked back from him, due to his low-caste (i.e. black slave) Tuareg phenotype?

    • Replies: @Yahya
    @songbird


    Perhaps, he went to embrace some Spanish tourists, and they shirked back from him, due to his low-caste (i.e. black slave) Tuareg phenotype?
     
    Wow, just when I thought your only redeeming feature was a good sense of humor, you come out with stupidities like this. You can’t even get the jokes right anymore. Learn the difference between Nubians and Tuaregs.

    The Tuareg people are a large Berber ethnic group that principally inhabit the Sahara in a vast area stretching from far southwestern Libya to southern Algeria, Niger, Mali, and Burkina Faso.
     
    Utu was right, you really are sub-human trash. You possess no value whatsoever.

    Afraid Yahya has slipped his straight-jacket
     
    Do I need to remind you of the comment you made some time ago (
    https://www.unz.com/akarlin/open-thread-172/#comment-5118251); whereby you lamely attempted to demonstrate European superiority by pointing to Alexander’s conquest of Egypt; and then after I factually informed you that Ancient Greeks like Alexander had squat-all to do with your ilk, you made a stereotypically retarded observation that Ancient Greeks couldn’t possibly be part of an Eastern Mediterranean sphere in antiquity, because some random modern Greek-Americans you know allegedly said they don’t view modern Arabs as kin (because everyone knows this Uber-scientific method is the best way of determining historical fact).

    Or should I come up with some other comments you made in your archives; in which you also vicariously took pride in Ancient Greek accomplishments; as if some impotent Irish-American like you had any part in it? Didn’t really take me long to find this gem of vicarious pride:


    songbird says:
    May 24, 2018 at 2:51 pm GMT • 4.7 years ago • 200 Words ↑
    @German_reader
    I’m not really a booster of an ancient Egyptian connection to Europe. Only in a way there is a tangential one: most of what we know of them comes from the Greeks. The language could not be read without them. The chronology would not survive without them.
    I think it is fair for all Europeans to feel some pride in ancient Greek accomplishments, for we all share some of the same blood, whether that is Early European Farmer or not. Meanwhile, many Romans were basically flat out Northern Europeans. Rome is above the Hajnal line, and many Romans did not even come from Rome but from Northern Italy or other locations. Virgil, one of the greatest writers of all time, came from Mantua.
    But, of course, these ancient comparisons are somewhat tendentious. The only interesting things blacks built in Africa are in NE Africa – in Ethiopia and Sudan where there is the most Eurasian genetic inflow. The Bantu built nothing interesting whatsoever, unless you count Great Zimbabwe, and it is not really that great, and far exceeded by things built hundreds of years previously in Northern Europe.
     
    https://www.unz.com/akarlin/sweden-no/#comment-2342826


    Even predictably inserting a strange and random comparison with black achievements in the end (like a true obsessive!). Sad really that you can’t even own up to your previous statements. Even you must understand how embarrassing it is to make these comments on a deep level.

    Replies: @songbird

  85. @Barbarossa
    @A123

    Your first explanation has basically been the understanding that I've been operating under for the past 18 months or so. However, I would have thought (I may be wrong) that we would have started to reach a point of equilibrium again. It's making me wonder if my assumptions are somewhat mistaken.

    The other factors you mention don't seem to apply to my own sphere of experience, but I can't discount them outside of that.

    It does seem to me that having kids has a lot to due with it. People without young kids don't seem to me to be getting the recurrent colds as much as ones with.

    The best way that I can encapsulate it is that now I feel like I have my kids in public school in regards to the frequency of colds. Homeschooling, even with a fair bit of other kid contact always seemed to make us much healthier than many public schooled families we know that were constantly sick.

    Replies: @A123

    Thanks.

    One additional thing springs to mind. Do people seem flabbier than they have in the past?

    I am carrying about 5-10 extra pounds versus my pre WUHAN-19 weight. I suspect others have had similar gains. This could also contribute to more often or more intense “crud” as you out it.

    My only recent gripe is a minor back injury. Perhaps the excess weight weakened me up a bit.

    PEACE 😇

    • Replies: @A123
    @A123


    ...as you out it.
     
    That should read -- ...as you *put* it.

    I would challenge Autocorrect to a fight to the depth. Except, the evil electronic thing would change that to *depth*. Then there would be 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea references.

    PEACE 😇

    Yes. I did that deliberately.

    Just trying to see who is paying attention.

  86. @songbird
    @Sher Singh


    Wait is he seriously claiming Alexander?.
     
    Afraid Yahya has slipped his straight-jacket

    Perhaps, he went to embrace some Spanish tourists, and they shirked back from him, due to his low-caste (i.e. black slave) Tuareg phenotype?

    Replies: @Yahya

    Perhaps, he went to embrace some Spanish tourists, and they shirked back from him, due to his low-caste (i.e. black slave) Tuareg phenotype?

    Wow, just when I thought your only redeeming feature was a good sense of humor, you come out with stupidities like this. You can’t even get the jokes right anymore. Learn the difference between Nubians and Tuaregs.

    The Tuareg people are a large Berber ethnic group that principally inhabit the Sahara in a vast area stretching from far southwestern Libya to southern Algeria, Niger, Mali, and Burkina Faso.

    Utu was right, you really are sub-human trash. You possess no value whatsoever.

    Afraid Yahya has slipped his straight-jacket

    Do I need to remind you of the comment you made some time ago (
    https://www.unz.com/akarlin/open-thread-172/#comment-5118251); whereby you lamely attempted to demonstrate European superiority by pointing to Alexander’s conquest of Egypt; and then after I factually informed you that Ancient Greeks like Alexander had squat-all to do with your ilk, you made a stereotypically retarded observation that Ancient Greeks couldn’t possibly be part of an Eastern Mediterranean sphere in antiquity, because some random modern Greek-Americans you know allegedly said they don’t view modern Arabs as kin (because everyone knows this Uber-scientific method is the best way of determining historical fact).

    [MORE]

    Or should I come up with some other comments you made in your archives; in which you also vicariously took pride in Ancient Greek accomplishments; as if some impotent Irish-American like you had any part in it? Didn’t really take me long to find this gem of vicarious pride:

    songbird says:
    May 24, 2018 at 2:51 pm GMT • 4.7 years ago • 200 Words ↑
    @German_reader
    I’m not really a booster of an ancient Egyptian connection to Europe. Only in a way there is a tangential one: most of what we know of them comes from the Greeks. The language could not be read without them. The chronology would not survive without them.
    I think it is fair for all Europeans to feel some pride in ancient Greek accomplishments, for we all share some of the same blood, whether that is Early European Farmer or not. Meanwhile, many Romans were basically flat out Northern Europeans. Rome is above the Hajnal line, and many Romans did not even come from Rome but from Northern Italy or other locations. Virgil, one of the greatest writers of all time, came from Mantua.
    But, of course, these ancient comparisons are somewhat tendentious. The only interesting things blacks built in Africa are in NE Africa – in Ethiopia and Sudan where there is the most Eurasian genetic inflow. The Bantu built nothing interesting whatsoever, unless you count Great Zimbabwe, and it is not really that great, and far exceeded by things built hundreds of years previously in Northern Europe.

    https://www.unz.com/akarlin/sweden-no/#comment-2342826

    Even predictably inserting a strange and random comparison with black achievements in the end (like a true obsessive!). Sad really that you can’t even own up to your previous statements. Even you must understand how embarrassing it is to make these comments on a deep level.

    • Replies: @songbird
    @Yahya


    Learn the difference between Nubians and Tuaregs.
     
    More trollish and amusing to call you a low-caste Tuareg. It satisfies the requirement of being a "sand people", while tying you to recent West African slave admixture (thus explaining your affinities), and not attributing any of the modest accomplishments that the Nubians might have to you.

    (BTW, am thinking this probably went past you, due to your general ignorance, but when I called you a "low-cast" Tuareg, I was referring to the fact that the Tuareg have caste, and that you would be at the bottom of their hierarchy, with your recent Afro-slave admixture.)

    Will keep your suggestion to call you a "Nubian" in mind, and consider it further. But I make no promises, as I say it doesn't naturally appeal to me, or suit my purposes.

    Am afraid the rest of your recent comments ("You are a neo-Nazi if you mention Germany on a geopolitical forum", "The average Greek feels an intense brotherhood with Arabs", "Ancient Greece and Rome were PoC, and not the cradle of European civilization", etc) are just too dumb to address.

    Probably will fall on deaf ears: but try to show a little more creativity, rather than seeming like a broken record, repeating someone else's dumb insults.

    Replies: @Yahya

  87. @HeavilyMarbledSteak
    Response to @LatW from the other thread -

    No, I do think real love exists, although I don't think it necessarily has to express itself in marriage or children. Marriage is a social institution, after all, although love is more likely to express itself in children.

    Thanks for your comment. The more I discuss this issue, the more my thoughts are beginning to coalesce around the issue of "contemplation" as one of the major ends of human life, and related to that, the issue of "leisure" as a legitimate goal in its own right, as the Greeks understood it.

    You make a good point that there are a number of professions which can be i
    satisfying, although most jobs in a modern economy aren't, but I want to put forward the bold notion that contemplation and leisure are ultimately the highest kind of life there is - or at the very least, at least equal to the life of action.

    This startling contention completely reverses the modern scale of values, and yet all classic civilizations thought this way - modernity is the first civilization to think the life of action most valuable.

    So as I clarify my thoughts to myself, maybe I'm on this quixotic quest to restore contemplation and leisure to their rightful place on top of the hierarchy :) Well, there are worse ways to tilt at windmills.

    And I suppose it depends on what you think of modernity - in my view, modernity is intensely nihilistic, and the nihilism of modern times seems to me a huge problem that needs to be overcome. I'm getting the sense you don't see this issue as acutely as I do.

    And I think our nihilism has some kind of connection to privileging a life of action over contemplation and leisure, because it is through contemplation and leisure that one accesses the "unseen realm" that is the source of meaning in our life.

    You seem to hesitate to agree with me that modern life is characterized by materialism, but nothing seems plainer to me.

    Here is from a discussion of Aristotle on leisure -


    Leisure, unlike mere amusement, involves pleasure, happiness and living blessedly (1338a1). And this is not possible for those who are occupied (insofar as they are occupied) since occupations aim at some necessary end. So there should be education with a view to leisure, i.e, with a view to things done for their own sake. This, then, is the first distinction; insofar as work and leisure are both good, work is extrinsically good, while leisure is intrinsically good. Aristotle elaborates on this first distinction in the Nicomachean Ethics:
     
    Perhaps that provides the perfect conceptual category to shed light on our previous discussion over what constitutes "work" - I now realize that I had a sense that some forms of "effort" constitutes "work" and some didn't, but I couldn't fully articulate to myself why.

    But I like the idea that work is what we do to achieve some end but not for it's own sake, while leisure activities are what we do for their own sake - activities that are intrinsically satisfying.

    In that sense, it's easy to see why even the most satisfying professions are inferior to leisure activities, and this helps clarify how the focus on action and work is connected to modern nihilism - if we have lost touch with what is worthwhile for it's own sake, we have lost touch with the sources of meaning.

    Replies: @LatW

    I do think real love exists, although I don’t think it necessarily has to express itself in marriage or children. Marriage is a social institution, after all, although love is more likely to express itself in children.

    Of course, love exists outside of marriage in many forms, but you said marriage is only either about “convenience”, “satisfaction” or “following norms”. To which I responded that marriage can also be “for love”, but that’s not the only place where love can exist, obviously. Whereas you tried to argue that all reasons for marriage or LTRs is something rather base or even primitive, thus devaluing it, so I felt the need to make an argument in favor of “romantic marriage”. Marriage is above all a safe place for children, which I wouldn’t say is a “selfish” goal either, as you seem to insinuate about social institutions in general.

    [MORE]

    Btw, in traditional societies, marriage was not merely a “social institution”, it was actually a religious, sanctified union. Including in pagan societies.

    The more I discuss this issue, the more my thoughts are beginning to coalesce around the issue of “contemplation” as one of the major ends of human life, and related to that, the issue of “leisure” as a legitimate goal in its own right, as the Greeks understood it.

    Now you are sounding as if you just want everyone to know that you’re “leaving” this limited and narrow world or morality or something. As we agreed on the other thread, there is plentiful bounty in the wild, surely, one can sustain oneself “hunting and gathering” and then spend what’s left of one’s days in deep contemplation and leisure (good luck!). Is there anything or anyone that is holding you back from that? As I said, feel free! Off you go! Enjoy! I will even envy you a little.

    but I want to put forward the bold notion that contemplation and leisure are ultimately the highest kind of life there is – or at the very least, at least equal to the life of action.

    Why do you keep placing “contemplation” and “leisure” together as if they are one or even close in meaning, when in most traditions contemplation is considered work and training of the mind? Of course, one might need a kind of a “leisurely” setting for that, but those are not the same things or even related. Think of the classic statute “The Thinker” – does that look like leisure to you? 🙂

    modernity is intensely nihilistic, and the nihilism of modern times seems to me a huge problem that needs to be overcome. I’m getting the sense you don’t see this issue as acutely as I do.

    I understand what you are saying very well. Maybe I do not fear this nihilism as much as you do. Maybe I have internalized it more and know how to handle it.

    You seem to hesitate to agree with me that modern life is characterized by materialism, but nothing seems plainer to me.

    I simply do not believe that a human being is a slave to society. It is in our nature to constantly reflect, so are aware of this and can act. You seem to talk about it almost as if “there is no way out”. As if we are slaves to this system. When in fact so many people have bailed what you call “the rat race”. Certainly, I wouldn’t say there is a shortage of people these days who have chosen to take on as little responsibility as possible so as to insulate themselves from any kind of burdensome relationships or obligations or risk of painful experiences (or to engage only in the very minimum in the safest possible way, or what’s worse, only take from others but refuse to give – thankfully, that usually doesn’t go very far).

    It doesn’t mean I have not felt the pain of this materialism, that you allude to, can cause (in EE we felt great pain because of this), maybe I am jus stronger than you and do not fear it as much or let if affect me as much. Since I have a way out through my religion anyway, I can always cushion myself in the ancestral embrace.

    Besides, all earthly beings are somehow tied to the material. In my ancestral worldview, the material is tied to the aesthetic aspects of human life without which life would be empty and to the chthonic forces of the Earth that nourishes us.

    Even those Japanese temples, no matter how discreet and ascetic, in a way have a “materialistic” dimension that tie the aesthetic to the spiritual. This is necessary to welcome those who seek spiritual nourishment.

    And, of course, this doesn’t mean I accept or agree with everything about how the Western economic system is structured, or with needlessly excessive materialistic lifestyles. But why should I deny enjoyment of the material? A responsible human being must know how to control these things in their life as to not engage in harmful things or cause harm to others.

    Here is from a discussion of Aristotle on leisure

    In his book, Aristotle attempts to address most aspects of human life, in a practical way. Thus, he will touch upon leisure as well but it doesn’t constitute the bulk of his teachings, nor does he zero in on it and it is definitely not something he “prizes above all else”. So it is questionable whether “Greeks prized leisure above all”, as you said in the previous thread, to which I responded: “The Greeks prized arete the most”. I will not impose this opinion, since there are several Greek schools and I don’t want to impose my surely limited perception and understanding.

    It is, of course, true that they prized “contemplation”. As I mentioned before, the highest goal is eudaimonia (happiness or sublime welbeing). Aristotle’s ethics are character ethics so the biggest focus is on practical things such as arete (striving for excellence) and practical wisdom (phronesis). The latter in particular requires “work”.

    But we can look at other Greek schools and we’ll find other things that may match your outlook better, maybe Epicurus (who, by the way, is not to be taken literally)?

    Anywa, I don’t want to impose my worldview, I like to keep an open mind. I hope I do not come off as too categorical or judgy.

    • Replies: @HeavilyMarbledSteak
    @LatW

    Fair enough, I didn't mean to imply marriage cannot be about love, of course it can, just that the formal structure of marriage is primarily a social institution, and to be honest, I'd include investing it with a sacral character as you describe traditional societies to have done.

    Although to be fair, I'd say investing it with a sacral character is an attempt to give it an extra-social dimension, but even so it remains a mixed institution at best.

    There's a reason literally every single spiritual tradition does not consider marriage the highest form of life - certainly not Christianity.

    Please don't get me wrong, this isn't to condemn marriage or deny it can have attractive features, or that it can be done in a better or worse way, but the modern elevation of marriage as primary seems obviously connected to the advent of nihilism, as is the modern elevation of work.


    Now you are sounding as if you just want everyone to know that you’re “leaving” this limited and narrow world or morality or something. As we agreed on the other thread, there is plentiful bounty in the wild, surely, one can sustain oneself “hunting and gathering” and then spend what’s left of one’s days in deep contemplation and leisure (good luck!). Is there anything or anyone that is holding you back from that? As I said, feel free! Off you go! Enjoy! I will even envy you a little.
     
    Now you're being facetious :)

    Surely you realize society employs a variety of means to make this extremely difficult for all but the most determined and eccentric, from immense social pressure to the organization of the economy to the monopolization of land ownership, especially fertile and arable land.

    But more than that, you're wrong that I simply want to "abandon society" like some misanthrope - I wouldn't be posting here if I did :)

    One of the key insights is that everything is interconnected, all of us are. I personally feel a vocation to a sort of "mixed" spiritual life - I spend large amounts of time in solitude in nature, and travelling, but I also want to introduce the spirit of that back into society, as I think recovering this dimension is of vital importance to the rest of mankind in their struggle with modern nihilism, and crucially and centrally, I want to give courage and example to all those lost souls who succumb to the social pressure of anti-spiritual people like AP and sink into the socially approved life of quiet desperation that results when one abandons the true ends of human life out of a misguided mania for securing the mere means of existence.

    So - you're not getting rid of me that easily :)

    Why do you keep placing “contemplation” and “leisure” together as if they are one or even close in meaning, when in most traditions contemplation is considered work and training of the mind? Of course, one might need a kind of a “leisurely” setting for that, but those are not the same things or even related. Think of the classic statute “The Thinker” – does that look like leisure to you? 🙂
     
    Yes, I didn't say "thought" - in contemplation you do not engage in strenuous thought trying to figure out problems :)

    It is precisely an emptying the mind of pesky thoughts and an abandonment of the need to figure things out :)

    Certainly, this too is a kind of "effort", but of a very peculiar kind that is a kind of determined anti-effort, as I explained to AP.

    Well, according to the distinction between leisure and work suggested by Aristotle above, which I adopted, leisure is a state where you focus on activities and things you do for their own intrinsic sake, not for some other end, like securing the means to existence.

    Contemplation - an emptying the mind of thought and the attempt to figure things out (capture reality in a net of conceptual categories) - so that one can come into the stark presence of God, the numinous, and the mysterious, and realize ones true nature, is clearly done for it's own sake, so it's clearly a leisure activity and not work.

    Insofar as contemplation involves the willed suspension of effort (which is itself a form of effort :) ), it bears similarities to leisure in the sense of inactivity, as well.

    I understand what you are saying very well. Maybe I do not fear this nihilism as much as you do. Maybe I have internalized it more and know how to handle it
     
    .

    I would like very much to believe you - in fact, this sounds very Nietzschean :) Nietzsche thought the modern task was to simply "will" oneself out of nihilism.

    But I don't believe this post-modern task can be done, because I believe in an objective structure to reality, and nihilism isn't some contingent fact but a necessary result of our relationship to the world.

    But more importantly, I believe you and AP, being from Eastern Europe, are merely a few decades behind us in the West - I don't think you've "mastered" nihilism, you're just breathing the last fumes of meaning that have not yet fully vanished from your culture. Yours and APs attitude are an exact replica of the attitude in the West right before full blown nihilism exploded onto the scene. It's the penultimate stage of this disease.

    Certainly, I wouldn’t say there is a shortage of people these days who have chosen to take on as little responsibility as possible so as to insulate themselves from any kind of burdensome relationships or obligations or risk of painful experiences (or to engage only in the very minimum in the safest possible way, or what’s worse, only take from others but refuse to give – thankfully, that usually doesn’t go very far).
     
    Yes, there is a growing movement - and some of the homeless too :)

    But the psychological and spiritual architecture does not yet exist to direct these impulses in the right direction, and these actions are taken against immense social pressure and economic and structural difficulty.

    I'm trying to help build the social and psychological architecture to facilitate such choices :)

    People drop out today, but society does not appreciate the spiritual significance of this - and that's a big problem, both fir society's understanding of the true ends of life, and for the drop outs themselves.

    Besides, all earthly beings are somehow tied to the material. In my ancestral worldview, the material is tied to the aesthetic aspects of human life without which life would be empty and to the chthonic forces of the Earth that nourishes us.
     
    Definitely. What I am criticizing is a preoccupation with the material on its own, without that extra spiritual dimension.

    Alan Watts used to say that we call ourselves materialists but it seems to him that we positively hate and despise matter because we make it so ugly and treat it so shabbily.

    Obviously, a beautiful building is spirit expressed through the medium of material - and perhaps that might be the true love of materialism :)

    And I am certainly not against the proper enjoyment of material things either - I am opposing the idea that the primary activity of human life ought to be securing the means to physical survival, as modern bourgeois society would have it, rather than focusing on things that have intrinsic meaning - what might be called the spiritual dimension.

    In his book, Aristotle attempts to address most aspects of human life, in a practical way. Thus, he will touch upon leisure as well but it doesn’t constitute the bulk of his teachings, nor does he zero in on it and it is definitely not something he “prizes above all else”. So it is questionable whether “Greeks prized leisure above all”, as you said in the previous thread, to which I responded: “The Greeks prized arete the most”. I will not impose this opinion, since there are several Greek schools and I don’t want to impose my surely limited perception and understanding.
     
    Ok, now you're just pulling an AP and denying what's plainly in sight :)

    Aristotle plainly says that leisure is the highest form of life towards which all our other activities are directed.

    We work - secure the means to survive materially - in order to enjoy things we do for their own sake with no ulterior motive, which are leisure activities.

    Of course, he recognized excellence in other areas of life as well, the political realm, war, and craftsmanship, which I'd certainly agree with, but he held out the highest honors for leisure.

    I'd like to restore that :)
  88. @A123
    @Barbarossa

    Thanks.

    One additional thing springs to mind. Do people seem flabbier than they have in the past?

    I am carrying about 5-10 extra pounds versus my pre WUHAN-19 weight. I suspect others have had similar gains. This could also contribute to more often or more intense "crud" as you out it.

    My only recent gripe is a minor back injury. Perhaps the excess weight weakened me up a bit.

    PEACE 😇

    Replies: @A123

    …as you out it.

    That should read — …as you *put* it.

    I would challenge Autocorrect to a fight to the depth. Except, the evil electronic thing would change that to *depth*. Then there would be 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea references.

    PEACE 😇

    [MORE]

    Yes. I did that deliberately.

    Just trying to see who is paying attention.

  89. @Sher Singh
    @Yahya

    Wait is he seriously claiming Alexander?
    @songbird I thought that was a troll.

    American whites and blacks claim everyone's history tbh.
    There's an Afro & Euro centric Kang tale about everything.

    Replies: @songbird, @Yahya

    American whites and blacks claim everyone’s history tbh.
    There’s an Afro & Euro centric Kang tale about everything.

    Not all Americans. Just assorted goofball WNs like ‘songbird’ and ‘S’ etc.

    Though they mock blacks for the “we wuz kangz” meme; they lack the self-awareness to understand that they are mirror images.

  90. @songbird
    @S


    are you familiar with the 1964 film Girl With Green Eyes?
     
    Haven't seen it, but thanks for bringing it to my attention.

    Off the top of my head, only two movies that I remember being set in Dublin:

    The Informant (1935.) A lot of people like this movie because it is directed by Ford, but something about it really rubbed me the wrong way. I almost felt it was sacrilegious how (spoiler) it seemd to try to turn the odious, titular character into a Crist-like figure. Or, at least, that is how I interpreted it.

    I guess one can look at it like a parable (or an exaggeration of real life tendencies to be faithless), and I might be being too harsh on it

    Evelyn
    (2002) Don't remember it super-well, but thought it was an okay family film. One of the shots included a place where my mother once lived. It's an unusual film because, unlike most Hollywood trash, it promotes the idea that a father loves his children and has certain rights to them.

    Replies: @S

    Evelyn (2002) Don’t remember it super-well, but thought it was an okay family film. One of the shots included a place where my mother once lived. It’s an unusual film because, unlike most Hollywood trash, it promotes the idea that a father loves his children and has certain rights to them.

    Not many films do that now, true.

    [MORE]

    Am reminded a bit of the ‘beloved husband and wife’ scene from the 1976 film Logan’s Run. This may have been just a cynical sop, but it’s a powerful scene, all the same.

    From the same movie, starting at 3:52, people for the first time in their lives see an old man. This was just after their materialistic, hedonistic, and completely youth oriented society had imploded.

    • Thanks: songbird
  91. Sher Singh says:
    @Ivashka the fool
    @Sher Singh

    I am not an Atheist.

    Have no clue where you got this idea from. Anyone who read my comments on this forum would easily understand that I have a belief system. The fact that it doesn't match yours doesn't mean that yours is right or mine is wrong. Neither does it mean the opposite.

    But you know that already.

    You just can't quite posturing online because it feeds your ego.

    Is it the way a grown man like you truly should behave?

    Is this the way of a warrior ?

    🙂

    Replies: @Sher Singh

    You’re an atheist because you have no consistent theos.

    I’m calling you a monkey running around blind.

    One does not engage in idol worship & claim to speak for the Abrahamics.

    Your misappropriation or claimed affiliations with our Dharma while being a malesh (cow killer) is similar.

    Have been very straightforward in telling you the issue why it’s an issue, and the solution to resolve the conflict.


    As it is still unclear then genocide is the only solution as you & w/e you represent or come from are unfit for human habitation.

    ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫਤਿਹ

    • Agree: Yevardian
    • Replies: @Ivashka the fool
    @Sher Singh

    You are making absurd claims about me. Despite your insults, I have stayed polite and civil as a grown up man should be. But you're simply not worthy of my time.

    Replies: @Sher Singh, @Mikel, @Yevardian

    , @Barbarossa
    @Sher Singh


    You’re an atheist because you have no consistent theos.
     
    The strongest impression that I've had is that your religious expression is mostly concentrated on a sort of Neitzschean "will to power" ethos. Plenty of irreligious people adopt that, so I would be curious how your expression of it is a consistent theos. How do you distinguish your own material lusts from religious conviction? Self deception is, after all, a skill that we as humans excel at.
  92. @Yahya
    @songbird


    Maybe, I sympathize with Germans because I have known a lot of them and liked them?
     
    You don’t just sympathize with Germans; you are actively obsessed with them; almost as if you are a German. No American here goes around behaving in the same manner - except for the neo-nazis. Just look at your comments from this very thread “But I think the absolute height of this is when they were shouting “Free the Leopards!” in Berlin. Even if they weren’t German, couldn’t they have bothered to learn it in German?”

    LOL. You even keep track of Leopard protests in Berlin. And get all upset when people chant in a non-German language. Seriously, you think any sane, non-Nazi American would ever bother himself with some random protest in Germany? How many Americans do you think even know of this event? Again, you opine on these matters as if you were a German. Just very strange behavior.

    Exhibit 2: When I specifically talked about Irish-Greek genetic distance; you shifted, almost by impulse, to GERMANS.


    and feel shaken to your core because I have not expressed similar sentiments about Arabs.
     
    What a stupid assertion. The last thing I’d want is for you to obsess and identify with Arabs the same way you do Germans. It would be the gravest calamity to befall the Arab peoples since the 67’ conflict. Once we admit you into the club (or rather, you insert yourself into ours; as you do with Germans), it’s pretty much game over. May as well give over all the land to Israel. We won’t deserve it.

    You have to be about the most counter-productive activist for white interests. Your mere existence points to a certain defective gene running through your people.


    That's pretty embarrassing, man. No wonder you denied you said it, and hid your commenting history.
     
    Stupid assertion no. 2. I hid my commenting history because of certain comments I made in relation to my (authoritarian) government. Nothing to do with Orban.

    Not as funny when you warned that Orban was going to start the Fourth Reich because he was against open borders, and trying to promote traditional values, and natalism
     
    Putting words in my mouth, especially with regard to that comment, for what has to be the 3rd for 4th time. You just never learn, do you?

    My commenting history is open. I guess if I said that, using those words, then you can link to it. At least, if you are not lying through your teeth, or a paranoid schizo.
     
    I can in fact link to it. Here is your typically whiny, resentment-fueled, goofball comment: https://www.unz.com/anepigone/wipe-well/#comment-3796783

    I really wish that PoC would stop using the word “white.” It gets awfully tiresome, when for example you’re being called “white British” by colonists. I’d never dream of moving to Arabia without so much as a “how do you do?” and then calling myself an Arab, and the natives there “brown Arabs.” That’d just be obnoxious, and I have more pride than that, to masquerade as some other people, while stealing their identity.
     
    Because unlike you, I don’t twist or put words in people’s mouths. You think I would actually need to lie about you saying something, to make you look bad? Your retarded comments speak for themselves.

    I have 13 pages mentioning “Irish”, 16 “Ireland.” Don’t blame me, if you assumed wrongly, and build an imaginary identity for me, without bothering to ask me.
     
    Lol, you have 25 PAGES mentioning “German” and 22 mentioning “Germany”.

    Replies: @Wokechoke

    Release Guderian!

  93. Why are Muslims so awful to indigenous Palestinian Christians? (1)

    [Muslims] Beat and Pepper-spray Elderly Priest, Stone Churches in Jaffa

    On Christmas Eve, 2022, a group of Palestinian “youth” assaulted a Coptic Christian church in Jaffa, Israel. After hurling stones and empty glass bottles at St. Anthony’s Church, they stormed it and savagely beat Fr. Michael Mansour, its priest.

    An example is certainly needed. Although the few Arabic language sources reporting on this incident portray it as an aberrant act that does not represent Muslim-Christian relations in the Holy Land, persecution of that region’s Christians and their holy places has, in fact, been increasing.

    It is proven fact that Muslims spit on Palestinian Christians. Then they lie and claim Jews did it. There is only one path to ending Muhammadan violence against the followers of Jesus.

    ===========================================
        Muslim Colonies are the Problem.
                Muslim Decolonization is the Answer!
    ===========================================

    PEACE 😇
    __________

    (1) https://pjmedia.com/columns/raymond-ibrahim/2023/01/23/palestinians-beat-and-pepper-spray-elderly-priest-stone-churches-in-jaffa-n1664289

  94. @Yahya
    @songbird

    Deceit once again.

    1) The first map you linked to shows Turkish-Greek genetic distance (5) as being smaller than Greek-German (6). Now you shift around like a snake; linking to another Tweet.

    2) We were talking about the Irish, not Germans.

    3) Ancient Greeks were further from Germans in antiquity than today. Modern Greeks received 20-25% Slavic admixture following the fall of Byzantium; which pulled them towards Germany (itself a Slavic-mixed nation).

    4) Turks exhibit 12-20% East Eurasian admixture which pulls them away from Greeks. Since East Eurasian DNA is extremely distant from West Eurasian DNA; just a small pulse can dramatically shift Turks on the PCA. But even so, Turks are still closer to Greeks than the Irish (and every other N. European nation). In fact a substantial portion of Turks are in essence Turkified Greeks. Had it not been for East Eurasian admixture; Turks would be almost identical to Greeks genetically.

    5) The Irish have squat-all to do with Ancient Greece.

    So your efforts to "own" fail miserably once again; owing to your general incoherence and lack of honesty.

    Replies: @Wokechoke, @Finn, @Philip Owen, @Emil Nikola Richard

    Brutus, the alleged first ruler of Britain came from Troy. No obvious link but were the Trojans Greeks?

    I would have expected Bashkiris and Turks to show some kinship.

    • Replies: @Wokechoke
    @Philip Owen

    I understand the word Britain is derived from the Carthaginian/Phoenician term that the Romans borrowed: Tin-lands: Pritan.

  95. @Yahya
    @songbird


    Perhaps, he went to embrace some Spanish tourists, and they shirked back from him, due to his low-caste (i.e. black slave) Tuareg phenotype?
     
    Wow, just when I thought your only redeeming feature was a good sense of humor, you come out with stupidities like this. You can’t even get the jokes right anymore. Learn the difference between Nubians and Tuaregs.

    The Tuareg people are a large Berber ethnic group that principally inhabit the Sahara in a vast area stretching from far southwestern Libya to southern Algeria, Niger, Mali, and Burkina Faso.
     
    Utu was right, you really are sub-human trash. You possess no value whatsoever.

    Afraid Yahya has slipped his straight-jacket
     
    Do I need to remind you of the comment you made some time ago (
    https://www.unz.com/akarlin/open-thread-172/#comment-5118251); whereby you lamely attempted to demonstrate European superiority by pointing to Alexander’s conquest of Egypt; and then after I factually informed you that Ancient Greeks like Alexander had squat-all to do with your ilk, you made a stereotypically retarded observation that Ancient Greeks couldn’t possibly be part of an Eastern Mediterranean sphere in antiquity, because some random modern Greek-Americans you know allegedly said they don’t view modern Arabs as kin (because everyone knows this Uber-scientific method is the best way of determining historical fact).

    Or should I come up with some other comments you made in your archives; in which you also vicariously took pride in Ancient Greek accomplishments; as if some impotent Irish-American like you had any part in it? Didn’t really take me long to find this gem of vicarious pride:


    songbird says:
    May 24, 2018 at 2:51 pm GMT • 4.7 years ago • 200 Words ↑
    @German_reader
    I’m not really a booster of an ancient Egyptian connection to Europe. Only in a way there is a tangential one: most of what we know of them comes from the Greeks. The language could not be read without them. The chronology would not survive without them.
    I think it is fair for all Europeans to feel some pride in ancient Greek accomplishments, for we all share some of the same blood, whether that is Early European Farmer or not. Meanwhile, many Romans were basically flat out Northern Europeans. Rome is above the Hajnal line, and many Romans did not even come from Rome but from Northern Italy or other locations. Virgil, one of the greatest writers of all time, came from Mantua.
    But, of course, these ancient comparisons are somewhat tendentious. The only interesting things blacks built in Africa are in NE Africa – in Ethiopia and Sudan where there is the most Eurasian genetic inflow. The Bantu built nothing interesting whatsoever, unless you count Great Zimbabwe, and it is not really that great, and far exceeded by things built hundreds of years previously in Northern Europe.
     
    https://www.unz.com/akarlin/sweden-no/#comment-2342826


    Even predictably inserting a strange and random comparison with black achievements in the end (like a true obsessive!). Sad really that you can’t even own up to your previous statements. Even you must understand how embarrassing it is to make these comments on a deep level.

    Replies: @songbird

    Learn the difference between Nubians and Tuaregs.

    More trollish and amusing to call you a low-caste Tuareg. It satisfies the requirement of being a “sand people”, while tying you to recent West African slave admixture (thus explaining your affinities), and not attributing any of the modest accomplishments that the Nubians might have to you.

    [MORE]

    (BTW, am thinking this probably went past you, due to your general ignorance, but when I called you a “low-cast” Tuareg, I was referring to the fact that the Tuareg have caste, and that you would be at the bottom of their hierarchy, with your recent Afro-slave admixture.)

    Will keep your suggestion to call you a “Nubian” in mind, and consider it further. But I make no promises, as I say it doesn’t naturally appeal to me, or suit my purposes.

    Am afraid the rest of your recent comments (“You are a neo-Nazi if you mention Germany on a geopolitical forum”, “The average Greek feels an intense brotherhood with Arabs”, “Ancient Greece and Rome were PoC, and not the cradle of European civilization”, etc) are just too dumb to address.

    Probably will fall on deaf ears: but try to show a little more creativity, rather than seeming like a broken record, repeating someone else’s dumb insults.

    • Replies: @Yahya
    @songbird


    More trollish and amusing to call you a low-caste Tuareg. It satisfies the requirement of being a “sand people”, while tying you to recent West African slave admixture
     
    Keep lying yourself. You were simply too ignorant and confused to select the correct Afro-Arab group found in my parts of town.

    Am afraid the rest of your recent comments (“You are a neo-Nazi if you mention Germany on a geopolitical forum”, “The average Greek feels an intense brotherhood with Arabs”, “Ancient Greece and Rome were PoC, and not the cradle of European civilization”, etc) are just too dumb to address.
     
    You are too dumb to even quote me properly. Just putting words in my mouth; twisting them to suit your purposes. As usual.

    Never have I said Greeks feel an intense brotherhood with Arab. I said Ancient Greeks were part of the Eastern Mediterranean oikumene during antiquity. A historical fact; which you seem incapable of absorbing; because you are a mirror image of the "we wuz kangz" brigade; absurdly projecting present-day American racial lingo ("PoC") to the ancient world; and attempting to appropriate Greek historical achievements, though your people played no part in it.

    Why don't you read a book sometime on Ancient Greece? Figure out which part of the world they interacted with the most at the time. Maybe then you wouldn't be such an ahistorical cretin.

    But for now; I leave you once again with a map of genetic distance from Mycenaean and Minoan Greeks; so you can let go of your simplistic notions of "white" vs "poc" division across the Bosporus.

    https://preview.redd.it/2w20vkg9xrm61.jpg?auto=webp&s=24fa458dad7aadc9fc437f0ceb0d485e6c97b577

    But my guess is that your thick skull won't allow entry to these basic, fundamental facts.

    So continue being a retard.

    Replies: @songbird

  96. @HeavilyMarbledSteak
    @AP

    I thought I mentioned several times already that work to secure a modest living is not what I'm condemning. And I guess there's little point in repeating that Jesus said we should give up wealth - much less work to acquire it - and not store up our treasures in this world, and that we should not be excessively preoccupied with securing food or shelter. As Dmitry said, how many times can you repeat "but you're eating chocolate" to someone eating chocolate who insists he isn't :)

    I also note that you didn't respond to my pointing out that the highest form of prayer in the Heyschast tradition is contemplation, which is emptying the mind and doing nothing. I guess that's just a Bolshevik slur.

    But it's interesting that you are defending Christianity from the "slur" of not focusing on material ends - like the Bolsheviks, you accept that materialism is the yardstick of value. What a thorough modern man you are :)

    One of the things that irks me about political discussions these days is that all sides, left and right, argue from the same set of shared assumptions and values. It's just rearranging pieces on a chessboard. Unz for instance is just basically a reverse image of Woke with the pieces arranged differently. We have not yet reached the stage where people question inherited assumptions and received values - but when that happens, you enter a period of true religious ferment. We are badly in need of a new Axial Age.

    But you are funny - so activity that we do for its own sake and not for some other end - like appreciating the beauty of nature - is an act of "consumption", and of little worth, because it isn't producing anything.

    The funny thing is, even within the capitalist paradigm whose terms you are employing, the purpose of work is so that one can consume :)

    The true ends of life even within the capitalist system is consumption and not productive work, which is merely a means to that end - of course, since it's capitalism, it conception of consumption can only be in terms of material things, but even it preserves a dim echo of the correct value-hierarchy between work and consumption. We till the soil so we can eat food - not just so we can till.

    So let's just say then I'm a defender of "consumption" as being primary, and the means to consumption secondary :)

    But somehow, our civilization has lost sight of that relationship. I wonder how we get like this.

    Replies: @Barbarossa, @AP

    And I guess there’s little point in repeating that Jesus said we should give up wealth

    Wealth is irrelevant, if one believes in God and uses it accordingly. A greedy sinful poor person is not better than a virtuous and generous rich one.

    I also note that you didn’t respond to my pointing out that the highest form of prayer in the Heyschast tradition is contemplation, which is emptying the mind and doing nothing

    I missed that. No Hesychasm is not “doing nothing” but assuming a particular pose for a long time, engaging in rhythmic breathing, and repeating the Jesus prayer while matching it to the breathing over and over again. It is too active for a lazy consumer such as you.

    If you take a few years to work on this tradition, rather than engage in your “eat pray love” tourism in the wilderness, than you will be making something of yourself.

    But it’s interesting that you are defending Christianity from the “slur” of not focusing on material ends

    As a hopeless materialist you can only conceive of activity and work in this world as having “material ends.”

    like the Bolsheviks, you accept that materialism is the yardstick of value

    Don’t misrepresent what I wrote. . I wrote about activity and you claim I wrote about “materialism.”

    One of the things that irks me about political discussions these days is that all sides, left and right, argue from the same set of shared assumptions and values.

    Correction: you are incapable of seeing beyond your bourgeois nature so you falsely assume that others share your assumptions and values.

    As a bourgeois materialist you cannot conceive of activity as not having to do with “materialism.”

    As a bourgeois materialist you struggle to conceive of family or marriage as not having to do with social status or transactions of some kind.

    so activity that we do for its own sake and not for some other end – like appreciating the beauty of nature – is an act of “consumption”

    For you, the bourgeois materialist, it is indeed so.

    Because if you cannot appreciate beauty in seemingly mundane things, even man-made things, than you are incapable of really appreciating it. So you collect rare experiences in remote places like some other bourgeois might collect shoes. It’s all the same with your kind.

    even within the capitalist paradigm whose terms you are employing, the purpose of work is so that one can consume…So let’s just say then I’m a defender of “consumption” as being primary, and the means to consumption secondary

    At least you honestly admit it. You are a materialist bourgeois, but without even the virtue of being hard working. You are just a consumer, or parasite, of other’s work. One who in his arrogance and pride compares himself to some monk.

    • Replies: @HeavilyMarbledSteak
    @AP


    Wealth is irrelevant, if one believes in God and uses it accordingly. A greedy sinful poor person is not better than a virtuous and generous rich one.
     
    The possession of wealth, according to Jesus, imposes on its bearer certain states of mind that make it difficult to experience heaven.

    Of course, many of the poor are no better off, also anxious about physical things and highly materialist.

    Jesus doesn't say the poor will automatically enter heaven, only that having wealth is a barrier to entering it. It's easy for to see why.

    I missed that. No Hesychasm is not “doing nothing” but assuming a particular pose for a long time, engaging in rhythmic breathing, and repeating the Jesus prayer while matching it to the breathing over and over again. It is too active for a lazy consumer such as you.
     
    Actually, growing up in a corrupted society focused on action, it takes a surprising amount of "discipline" to simply do nothing.

    We have to resist all our conditioning, the habits and instincts of a society that focuses on superficial activity.

    From our starting point, it takes conscious will to resist social conditioning. But it's a curious kind of "action" in that it's non-action :)

    There is a classic of Zen called The Gateless Gate - in this book it is constantly emphasized that there is no gate one must pass through, there is nothing to be accomplished and nothing to do, and that realizing that is precisely the gate one must pass through :)

    Much spirituality is actually de-conditioning ourselves from our social upbringing and the effects of a society focused on disguising what constitutes true human flourishing - and revealing our true natures as God made them for the first time.

    This idea of course is central to Taoism, but one of the fascinating things I found out while reading about the Desert Fathers and the early Christian ascetics this summer is that many of them had the exact same notion of fleeing society to reveal the perfection of our true nature as God intended.

    Today, we tend to think Christianity says our "true nature" is sinful and bad, but it turns out the early Christians - at least many of them - had the Taoistic notion that our true natures are good and it is society that corrupts.

    The more you move away from later Christianity, and especially modern, the more you come to see why it was originally seen as such a positive and optimistic movement, especially against the backdrop of an overly corrupt, complex, artificial, Roman civilization..
  97. @Sher Singh
    @Ivashka the fool

    You're an atheist because you have no consistent theos.

    I'm calling you a monkey running around blind.

    One does not engage in idol worship & claim to speak for the Abrahamics.

    Your misappropriation or claimed affiliations with our Dharma while being a malesh (cow killer) is similar.

    Have been very straightforward in telling you the issue why it's an issue, and the solution to resolve the conflict.

    --
    As it is still unclear then genocide is the only solution as you & w/e you represent or come from are unfit for human habitation.

    ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫਤਿਹ

    Replies: @Ivashka the fool, @Barbarossa

    You are making absurd claims about me. Despite your insults, I have stayed polite and civil as a grown up man should be. But you’re simply not worthy of my time.

    • Replies: @Sher Singh
    @Ivashka the fool


    Your misappropriation or claimed affiliations with our Dharma while being a malesh (cow killer) is similar.

    Have been very straightforward in telling you the issue why it’s an issue, and the solution to resolve the conflict.
     
    You either consume the flesh of cattle &/or tolerate it or you don't.
    It's very simple, and if you can't take a simple position or answer a simple question..

    Then anything you stand for it also pointless.

    ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫਤਿਹ

    Replies: @Ivashka the fool

    , @Mikel
    @Ivashka the fool


    Despite your insults, I have stayed polite and civil as a grown up man should be.
     
    If my memory doesn't fail, you both live in the same country. Perhaps you should invite Sher to meet up one day and just solve all your differences around some good burgers with fries.

    Replies: @Sher Singh, @Ivashka the fool

    , @Yevardian
    @Ivashka the fool

    I personally don't see any absurd claims the Sikh made there. Funnily enough, I'd agree 100% with just about every single point he made there, I just come from the other side.

    You have a consistent religious belief system based on real traditions or you don't.
    People who pick and choose a personalised mishmash of 'spirituality' aren't much different from modern atheists, except they're also superstitious to boot.

    I can have a coherent conversation a skeptical scientific rationalist or sincere practitioner in x-faith, but I personally can't shrug feelings of contempt for the 'I'm spiritual but not religious' crowd.


    One does not engage in idol worship & claim to speak for the Abrahamics.
     
    LOL
  98. @Philip Owen
    @Yahya

    Brutus, the alleged first ruler of Britain came from Troy. No obvious link but were the Trojans Greeks?

    I would have expected Bashkiris and Turks to show some kinship.

    Replies: @Wokechoke

    I understand the word Britain is derived from the Carthaginian/Phoenician term that the Romans borrowed: Tin-lands: Pritan.

    • Agree: Philip Owen
  99. Sher Singh says:
    @Ivashka the fool
    @Sher Singh

    You are making absurd claims about me. Despite your insults, I have stayed polite and civil as a grown up man should be. But you're simply not worthy of my time.

    Replies: @Sher Singh, @Mikel, @Yevardian

    Your misappropriation or claimed affiliations with our Dharma while being a malesh (cow killer) is similar.

    Have been very straightforward in telling you the issue why it’s an issue, and the solution to resolve the conflict.

    You either consume the flesh of cattle &/or tolerate it or you don’t.
    It’s very simple, and if you can’t take a simple position or answer a simple question..

    Then anything you stand for it also pointless.

    ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫਤਿਹ

    • Replies: @Ivashka the fool
    @Sher Singh

    I am fed up interacting with you, but one should train the Great Virtue of Patience and exercise the Great Virtue of Gift.

    Consider this reply a Dana.

    1) I have never claimed association with anything you represent.

    2) You have no idea about anything I believe.

    3) Things that are truly sacred to oneself should never be discussed online because those reading might prove unfit to understand them.

    4) God cannot be adequately described.

    That is all I have to say.

    May you benefit from our exchange.

    Be well.

    Replies: @Sher Singh

  100. @Barbarossa
    I keep on wondering what is going on with immunity since Covid/ lockdowns. My own family and pretty much everyone else I know or talk to is sick far more often than pre-Covid. We used to get a cold or bug 2-3 times a year and now it seems like they just pile on top of one another. I'd say one of us feel some level of yuck more often than we are all feeling good. It's never major, but it's really irritating.

    It's a giant change in a very short space, and doctors that I've talked to are saying that they seem to be seeing the same dynamic.

    I've been noticing this for a good year and a half and I attributed it to our immune systems being attenuated from lack of routine exposure to various pathogens. We and the people around us never really locked down, so I was rather surprised to be so affected.

    However, after 18 months with no noticeable change in the dynamic I'm seriously starting to wonder what else is going on and what the cumulative effects are. Has Covid just fundamentally weakened immune systems in a sustained way, or is more going on? If we do have relatively weakened immune systems going forward what can effectively be done to build them back up in a sustainable way? If our immune systems are doing a noticeably poorer job keeping pathogens from getting to a symptomatic level what implications does that have for other functions of the immune system such as eliminating cancer cells before they take hold?

    Any thoughts?

    Replies: @Ivashka the fool, @A123, @sudden death, @Mikel

    If our immune systems are doing a noticeably poorer job keeping pathogens from getting to a symptomatic level what implications does that have for other functions of the immune system such as eliminating cancer cells before they take hold?

    Good question. But I wouldn’t be too worried, the mechanisms must be quite different. Otherwise, people with compromised immune systems would be more prone to getting cancer and I’ve never heard of that being a risk factor for cancer in general. This is not my area of expertise at all though. It would be interesting to read AnonfromTN’s take on this. I get the feeling that Ivashka may know a couple of things on this type of subjects too.

    For whatever it’s worth, I haven’t noticed much of a difference after catching a very mild form of Covid and getting the mRNA vaccine afterwards. I don’t remember having caught any cold in the past couple of years but I did have a weird strep-kind of throat infection some months ago that I attributed to bugs running rampant post-Covid. As you say, it seems to be an established fact that people lost immunity during the lockdowns and mandatory masking due to lack of exposure. I’ve actually read about that in the news several times. Perhaps the fact that I haven’t noticed much difference is due to the part of Utah where I live having always been open during the Covid scare. There were no lockdowns and masks were only mandatory in healthcare facilities. It must have been more strict in New York state.

    Glad that you brought up the topic in the safest part of Unz. Otherwise, we would have gotten an avalanche of conspiracy-themed comments, making any sane discussion impossible.

    • Replies: @Barbarossa
    @Mikel


    Glad that you brought up the topic in the safest part of Unz.
     
    Trust me, if I had not had full confidence that it would be discussed in a sane and interesting way I wouldn't have brought it up! NY was more strict in general, but my part of the state was really probably effectively the equivalent of what you did in Utah.
  101. @RSDB
    @AP (previous thread, several days ago)

    I don't think the poor are especially sinful, as a class, nor are they commonly saints. In the US, one common way to be poor, certainly, is to exhibit poor self-control, to be too ready for the drink or too quick to anger or too lustful. That those who are low in society turn to the fiercer satisfactions, and doing so helps keep them poor, while those who are more wealthy can turn to more refined pleasures, is not especially surprising.

    These are, however, not the only sins one can commit, and the refined and the luxurious are not necessarily the better people for it. I seem to recall someone saying something somewhere about camels and eyes of needles?

    Pride, for instance, the first sin and chief of sins, does not seem to be quite so much of a temptation to the poor of America, whereas it is actually celebrated by many of the rich.

    It was after all not the justified man who said I thank thee, God, that I am not like the rest of men, who steal and cheat and commit adultery, or like this publican here; for myself, I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.

    Replies: @Wokechoke, @Barbarossa, @AP

    I don’t think the poor are especially sinful, as a class

    You are mistaken. They are more likely to commit various sins. I posted that earlier.

    That those who are low in society turn to the fiercer satisfactions, and doing so helps keep them poor, while those who are more wealthy can turn to more refined pleasures, is not especially surprising.

    Of course. Not only more refined, but less harmful. Our Christian society has been structured in such a way that sins are viewed as disreputable.

    I seem to recall someone saying something somewhere about camels and eyes of needles?

    Orthodox source:

    https://www.goarch.org/-/orthodox-christian-wealth-and-stewardship

    It would be easy to misunderstand Jesus here and to assume that it’s impossible for a rich person to get into heaven. But Jesus was most likely making an example of this self-righteous young ruler. He is a sad example of a person who is convinced he is religious, but misses the whole point. He followed the letter of the law, yet he did not carry love in his heart.

    St. Clement warns us not to interpret this passage to mean that wealth will keep us from the kingdom of heaven. He writes that it is the attitude of the soul that is important. It is the passion for wealth, not the wealth itself that condemns a man. Catholic source:

    https://blog.acton.org/archives/23341-st-clement-of-alexandria-on-the-value-of-wealth.html#:~:text=%E2%80%9CRiches%20then%20should%20not%20be,for%20the%20use%20of%20men.%E2%80%9D

    Clement wrote that a person could give everything away only to doubly regret his decision. To teach that Jesus intends for every disciple to give up everything contradicts statements like those of Luke 16:9, which urges us to make friends by the use of wealth. “Riches then should not be rejected if they can be of use to our neighbor. They are accurately called possessions because they are possessed by people, and goods or utilities because with them one can do good and because they have been ordained by God for the use of men.”

    What Clement is saying is that goods and possessions can be instruments in the hands of skilled servants who use them to bless others and advance great good. “Riches, then, are also an instrument.” If rightly used they can bring about justice and service. He added, “In themselves riches are blameless.”

    Pride, for instance, the first sin and chief of sins, does not seem to be quite so much of a temptation to the poor of America

    Poor can be just as proud as rich people. A lot of poor people even needlessly kill one another over issues of pride and respect.

    For those who enjoy the Gospels, being active in using the gifts one has been given is good. Idleness is not:

    [MORE]

    • Replies: @RSDB
    @AP


    He followed the letter of the law, yet he did not carry love in his heart.
     
    Yes, and would your statistics have counted him as sinful or not?

    Poor can be just as proud as rich people.

     

    They can be. Are they? Who marches in "pride parades"? Do your statistics measure pride? If not, are they accurate measures of sinfulness in toto?

    For those who enjoy the Gospels, being active in using the gifts one has been given is good. Idleness is not:

     

    In one of the villages he entered during his journey, a woman called Martha entertained him in her house. She had a sister called Mary; and Mary took her place at the Lord’s feet, and listened to his words. Martha was distracted by waiting on many needs; so she came to his side, and asked, Lord, art thou content that my sister should leave me to do the serving alone? Come, bid her help me. Jesus answered her, Martha, Martha, how many cares and troubles thou hast! But only one thing is necessary; and Mary has chosen for herself the best part of all, that which shall never be taken away from her.

    Nobody is saying that the bag lady you pass on the street is necessarily very much like Mary in the story above. However, I am inviting you to reflect that you and I are not necessarily better people than her given our various paths in life, and that the distance between any of us looks incredibly small when compared to the distance between all of us and that perfection to which we are called by Christ.

    Replies: @Wokechoke, @AP

    , @Mikel
    @AP


    You are mistaken. They are more likely to commit various sins. I posted that earlier.
     
    You just showed some crude correlation between sinful acts and poverty but the causality is uncertain. People living in poverty are more likely to engage in some antisocial behaviors out of necessity, eg a destitute person is of course more much likely to feel the need to steal than a wealthy individual leading a comfortable life. Likewise, a person born and grown up among immoral people is less likely to learn good habits and prosper in life than if that same person had been born in a virtuous family. So that correlation on its own doesn't necessarily teach us much about any innate tendencies among people who happen to be born in different social classes (I do think that there might be some innate poverty-immorality link but not that your data demonstrates it).

    It would be easy to misunderstand Jesus here and to assume that it’s impossible for a rich person to get into heaven.
     
    How can anyone misunderstand this?

    "I'll say it again-it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the Kingdom of God!" Matthew 19:24

    This is exactly what I was taught Jesus had said when I was a child. Having been born in a rather well-to-do family, I remember feeling threatened by this remark of Jesus and finding it cruel. I still had the time to become poor later in later in life, I thought, but what about my parents? Were they virtually condemned to go to hell?

    Replies: @AP, @RSDB

  102. @songbird
    @Yahya


    Learn the difference between Nubians and Tuaregs.
     
    More trollish and amusing to call you a low-caste Tuareg. It satisfies the requirement of being a "sand people", while tying you to recent West African slave admixture (thus explaining your affinities), and not attributing any of the modest accomplishments that the Nubians might have to you.

    (BTW, am thinking this probably went past you, due to your general ignorance, but when I called you a "low-cast" Tuareg, I was referring to the fact that the Tuareg have caste, and that you would be at the bottom of their hierarchy, with your recent Afro-slave admixture.)

    Will keep your suggestion to call you a "Nubian" in mind, and consider it further. But I make no promises, as I say it doesn't naturally appeal to me, or suit my purposes.

    Am afraid the rest of your recent comments ("You are a neo-Nazi if you mention Germany on a geopolitical forum", "The average Greek feels an intense brotherhood with Arabs", "Ancient Greece and Rome were PoC, and not the cradle of European civilization", etc) are just too dumb to address.

    Probably will fall on deaf ears: but try to show a little more creativity, rather than seeming like a broken record, repeating someone else's dumb insults.

    Replies: @Yahya

    More trollish and amusing to call you a low-caste Tuareg. It satisfies the requirement of being a “sand people”, while tying you to recent West African slave admixture

    Keep lying yourself. You were simply too ignorant and confused to select the correct Afro-Arab group found in my parts of town.

    Am afraid the rest of your recent comments (“You are a neo-Nazi if you mention Germany on a geopolitical forum”, “The average Greek feels an intense brotherhood with Arabs”, “Ancient Greece and Rome were PoC, and not the cradle of European civilization”, etc) are just too dumb to address.

    You are too dumb to even quote me properly. Just putting words in my mouth; twisting them to suit your purposes. As usual.

    Never have I said Greeks feel an intense brotherhood with Arab. I said Ancient Greeks were part of the Eastern Mediterranean oikumene during antiquity. A historical fact; which you seem incapable of absorbing; because you are a mirror image of the “we wuz kangz” brigade; absurdly projecting present-day American racial lingo (“PoC”) to the ancient world; and attempting to appropriate Greek historical achievements, though your people played no part in it.

    Why don’t you read a book sometime on Ancient Greece? Figure out which part of the world they interacted with the most at the time. Maybe then you wouldn’t be such an ahistorical cretin.

    But for now; I leave you once again with a map of genetic distance from Mycenaean and Minoan Greeks; so you can let go of your simplistic notions of “white” vs “poc” division across the Bosporus.

    But my guess is that your thick skull won’t allow entry to these basic, fundamental facts.

    So continue being a retard.

    • Replies: @songbird
    @Yahya


    You are too dumb to even quote me properly. Just putting words in my mouth
     
    Would use blockquotes, if I were trying to quote you. (Or punish anyone reading this thread). But you said nothing meaningful, and were disrespectful, so I chose to satirize you.

    Will address your point about the genetics of Ancient Greece though, since it is semi-cogent, and I don't think I made a proper response to it. To attempt to summarize:

    You are correct that Ancient Greeks were more closely related to Ancient Anatolians than Modern Greeks are to Turks, and your explanation about why this has changed is also right.

    You are correct (but straw-manning) to object and say this doesn't meant that Turks aren't the descendants of Ancient Greeks. (In fact, I have never claimed that they weren't)

    What I did say, and what is true is that modern Greeks and Turks have a relatively high genetic distance for neighboring countries. (BTW, don't believe you acknowledged this, and I am not quite sure you understand what it means.)

    It literally means that modern Greeks are more genetically related to the French than to Turks. Relatedness =/= descent. But that doesn't mean that relatedness isn't meaningful.

    [To give an extreme example: if a Swede misceginates with a Nigerian, then they are literally more genetically related to a random Swede than they will be to their own kids. If they are looking for a bone-marrow transplant, or an organ transplant, they'll probably need to get it from someone other than their children.

    You might say, "Well, they are still their children." And that is true, but their genetic distance to their children is very high and there are consequences to that - it isn't just some abstract number, but something that represents a tangible reality]

    I have speculated that this is what explains modern tensions and political differences. Now, I grant you this is where my logic might be a little murky or a reach. The genes are mixed up with history, religion, and culture.

    I think it is pretty obvious that, if the Ottomans had been utterly defeated, Greece and Turkey would be one country and one culture. That is alt history. Maybe, not especially likely. And it is possible to imagine crazier scenarios.

    What if we secretly shifted the DNA of the Turks or the Greeks to reduce the genetic distance to zero, without letting them catch on? Would it reduce tensions? If we didn't change the historical baggage or cultural differences? I would guess not. (Am too lazy to look it up, but I think Bosnians and Serbs are much more closely related)

    Anyway, whatever the case, it is notable that the genetic distance is so high. And I don't understand why you can't seem to acknowledge that, and leave it at that. That was really what my original post was about.

    Replies: @Yahya

  103. @Sher Singh
    @Ivashka the fool


    Your misappropriation or claimed affiliations with our Dharma while being a malesh (cow killer) is similar.

    Have been very straightforward in telling you the issue why it’s an issue, and the solution to resolve the conflict.
     
    You either consume the flesh of cattle &/or tolerate it or you don't.
    It's very simple, and if you can't take a simple position or answer a simple question..

    Then anything you stand for it also pointless.

    ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫਤਿਹ

    Replies: @Ivashka the fool

    I am fed up interacting with you, but one should train the Great Virtue of Patience and exercise the Great Virtue of Gift.

    Consider this reply a Dana.

    1) I have never claimed association with anything you represent.

    2) You have no idea about anything I believe.

    3) Things that are truly sacred to oneself should never be discussed online because those reading might prove unfit to understand them.

    4) God cannot be adequately described.

    That is all I have to say.

    May you benefit from our exchange.

    Be well.

    • Replies: @Sher Singh
    @Ivashka the fool


    believe
     
    Another deracinated white american.
    Your sovok background doesn't make you an Easterner.

    Dana.

    1) I have never claimed association with anything you represent.
     
    My clan is Chandra Vansh ie Soma Vansh ie Bharat Vansh

    Daan or Dana is a Sanskrit/Pali term.

    --
    You're a larper.

    https://www.manglacharan.com/post/practice-is-supreme-bhai-gurdas

    --
    Imagine trying to discuss Dharma while killing cows.

    https://rkpayne.wordpress.com/2015/06/12/secular-buddhism-unitarianism-in-buddhist-drag/

    You're a failed white liberal trying to appropriate Bodha Panth.
    You speak of heritage - yet cannot name the Slavic Gods or how they're worshipped.
    Cannot reconstruct your 'faith' without texts by christian monks.

    You could become Dharmic while respecting your Gods.
    However, that would alienate you from White Christians.
    You've chosen your path.

    You are not Saka you are a slav(e)
    The SMO has reminded the world of your position.



    ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫਤਿਹ
  104. In the 1950s, Atilhan and Kısakürek argued that the Lausanne treaty was a Jewish plot, masterminded by Chief Rabbi Haim Nahum, a consultant of the Turkish delegation at Lausanne. Their conspiracy theory set out how they believed the 1923 treaty represented a major defeat for Turkey, not only for the territorial and economic losses it inflicted through its known and “secret” clauses. By paving the way for the abolition of the Caliphate in March 1924 it also weakened Turkish society morally, upending the “unity and consciousness of Islam”.

    https://asiatimes.com/2023/01/many-turks-await-unveiling-of-1923-secret-clauses/

  105. @Ivashka the fool
    @Sher Singh

    You are making absurd claims about me. Despite your insults, I have stayed polite and civil as a grown up man should be. But you're simply not worthy of my time.

    Replies: @Sher Singh, @Mikel, @Yevardian

    Despite your insults, I have stayed polite and civil as a grown up man should be.

    If my memory doesn’t fail, you both live in the same country. Perhaps you should invite Sher to meet up one day and just solve all your differences around some good burgers with fries.

    • Replies: @Sher Singh
    @Mikel

    https://twitter.com/JDKnox4/status/1458940077757935620?s=20

    I go outside, and hear the birds sing.
    White genocide, it's a beautiful thing.

    Replies: @Ivashka the fool, @songbird

    , @Ivashka the fool
    @Mikel

    I don't have a different with him, but he has somehow found a way to have a different with me.

    He's battling "failed American Slav White Liberal Neo-pagan LARPERs" in his own head.

    It must be a terrible experience.

    What can we do ?

    Only wish him to get better soon...

    🙂

  106. Sher Singh says:
    @Ivashka the fool
    @Sher Singh

    I am fed up interacting with you, but one should train the Great Virtue of Patience and exercise the Great Virtue of Gift.

    Consider this reply a Dana.

    1) I have never claimed association with anything you represent.

    2) You have no idea about anything I believe.

    3) Things that are truly sacred to oneself should never be discussed online because those reading might prove unfit to understand them.

    4) God cannot be adequately described.

    That is all I have to say.

    May you benefit from our exchange.

    Be well.

    Replies: @Sher Singh

    believe

    Another deracinated white american.
    Your sovok background doesn’t make you an Easterner.

    Dana.

    1) I have never claimed association with anything you represent.

    My clan is Chandra Vansh ie Soma Vansh ie Bharat Vansh

    Daan or Dana is a Sanskrit/Pali term.


    You’re a larper.

    https://www.manglacharan.com/post/practice-is-supreme-bhai-gurdas


    Imagine trying to discuss Dharma while killing cows.

    https://rkpayne.wordpress.com/2015/06/12/secular-buddhism-unitarianism-in-buddhist-drag/

    You’re a failed white liberal trying to appropriate Bodha Panth.
    You speak of heritage – yet cannot name the Slavic Gods or how they’re worshipped.
    Cannot reconstruct your ‘faith’ without texts by christian monks.

    You could become Dharmic while respecting your Gods.
    However, that would alienate you from White Christians.
    You’ve chosen your path.

    You are not Saka you are a slav(e)
    The SMO has reminded the world of your position.

    ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫਤਿਹ

  107. @Mikel
    @Ivashka the fool


    Despite your insults, I have stayed polite and civil as a grown up man should be.
     
    If my memory doesn't fail, you both live in the same country. Perhaps you should invite Sher to meet up one day and just solve all your differences around some good burgers with fries.

    Replies: @Sher Singh, @Ivashka the fool

    I go outside, and hear the birds sing.
    White genocide, it’s a beautiful thing.

    • Replies: @Ivashka the fool
    @Sher Singh

    You really are off the tracks today.

    Take your pills, have some sleep.

    It's gonna be better tomorrow.

    🙂

    , @songbird
    @Sher Singh


    https://twitter.com/BirthGauge/status/1522467845967388674?s=20&t=0ZdK3Z13H-3z3dASboMRuA

    https://twitter.com/KingIbo01784308/status/1583473967129858054?s=20&t=0ZdK3Z13H-3z3dASboMRuA

    Replies: @Thulean Friend

  108. @AP
    @RSDB


    I don’t think the poor are especially sinful, as a class
     
    You are mistaken. They are more likely to commit various sins. I posted that earlier.

    That those who are low in society turn to the fiercer satisfactions, and doing so helps keep them poor, while those who are more wealthy can turn to more refined pleasures, is not especially surprising.
     
    Of course. Not only more refined, but less harmful. Our Christian society has been structured in such a way that sins are viewed as disreputable.

    I seem to recall someone saying something somewhere about camels and eyes of needles?
     
    Orthodox source:

    https://www.goarch.org/-/orthodox-christian-wealth-and-stewardship

    It would be easy to misunderstand Jesus here and to assume that it’s impossible for a rich person to get into heaven. But Jesus was most likely making an example of this self-righteous young ruler. He is a sad example of a person who is convinced he is religious, but misses the whole point. He followed the letter of the law, yet he did not carry love in his heart.

    St. Clement warns us not to interpret this passage to mean that wealth will keep us from the kingdom of heaven. He writes that it is the attitude of the soul that is important. It is the passion for wealth, not the wealth itself that condemns a man. Catholic source:

    https://blog.acton.org/archives/23341-st-clement-of-alexandria-on-the-value-of-wealth.html#:~:text=%E2%80%9CRiches%20then%20should%20not%20be,for%20the%20use%20of%20men.%E2%80%9D

    Clement wrote that a person could give everything away only to doubly regret his decision. To teach that Jesus intends for every disciple to give up everything contradicts statements like those of Luke 16:9, which urges us to make friends by the use of wealth. “Riches then should not be rejected if they can be of use to our neighbor. They are accurately called possessions because they are possessed by people, and goods or utilities because with them one can do good and because they have been ordained by God for the use of men.”

    What Clement is saying is that goods and possessions can be instruments in the hands of skilled servants who use them to bless others and advance great good. “Riches, then, are also an instrument.” If rightly used they can bring about justice and service. He added, “In themselves riches are blameless.”

    Pride, for instance, the first sin and chief of sins, does not seem to be quite so much of a temptation to the poor of America
     
    Poor can be just as proud as rich people. A lot of poor people even needlessly kill one another over issues of pride and respect.

    For those who enjoy the Gospels, being active in using the gifts one has been given is good. Idleness is not:



    https://i.imgur.com/XdRuUhz.png

    Replies: @RSDB, @Mikel

    He followed the letter of the law, yet he did not carry love in his heart.

    Yes, and would your statistics have counted him as sinful or not?

    Poor can be just as proud as rich people.

    They can be. Are they? Who marches in “pride parades”? Do your statistics measure pride? If not, are they accurate measures of sinfulness in toto?

    For those who enjoy the Gospels, being active in using the gifts one has been given is good. Idleness is not:

    In one of the villages he entered during his journey, a woman called Martha entertained him in her house. She had a sister called Mary; and Mary took her place at the Lord’s feet, and listened to his words. Martha was distracted by waiting on many needs; so she came to his side, and asked, Lord, art thou content that my sister should leave me to do the serving alone? Come, bid her help me. Jesus answered her, Martha, Martha, how many cares and troubles thou hast! But only one thing is necessary; and Mary has chosen for herself the best part of all, that which shall never be taken away from her.

    Nobody is saying that the bag lady you pass on the street is necessarily very much like Mary in the story above. However, I am inviting you to reflect that you and I are not necessarily better people than her given our various paths in life, and that the distance between any of us looks incredibly small when compared to the distance between all of us and that perfection to which we are called by Christ.

    • Replies: @Wokechoke
    @RSDB

    Nothing annoys an early adopter more than the most recent convert.

    , @AP
    @RSDB


    "He followed the letter of the law, yet he did not carry love in his heart."

    Yes, and would your statistics have counted him as sinful or not?
     
    We can not measure what is in people's hearts but we can infer it by statistics that measure things such as committing acts of violence such as assault or rape, or engaging in debasement such as drug abuse.

    And on these measures the poor (in general) do poorly compared to the rich. In Jesus time it was not the case.

    Nobody is saying that the bag lady you pass on the street is necessarily very much like Mary in the story above. However, I am inviting you to reflect that you and I are not necessarily better people than her given our various paths in life, and that the distance between any of us looks incredibly small when compared to the distance between all of us and that perfection to which we are called by Christ.

     

    I agree completely. The bag lady is probably mentally ill. I explicitly stated that a minority of poor are poor for no reason of their own at all.

    As for the rest - I describe, but do not judge. They should be, not idolized or praised as some kind of rebel against a bad capitalist order and allowed to further harm themselves (what a disgusting way to use human beings and their suffering) - but helped. And certainly not allowed to debase themselves and harm others.

    Replies: @RSDB, @Barbarossa

  109. @RSDB
    @AP


    He followed the letter of the law, yet he did not carry love in his heart.
     
    Yes, and would your statistics have counted him as sinful or not?

    Poor can be just as proud as rich people.

     

    They can be. Are they? Who marches in "pride parades"? Do your statistics measure pride? If not, are they accurate measures of sinfulness in toto?

    For those who enjoy the Gospels, being active in using the gifts one has been given is good. Idleness is not:

     

    In one of the villages he entered during his journey, a woman called Martha entertained him in her house. She had a sister called Mary; and Mary took her place at the Lord’s feet, and listened to his words. Martha was distracted by waiting on many needs; so she came to his side, and asked, Lord, art thou content that my sister should leave me to do the serving alone? Come, bid her help me. Jesus answered her, Martha, Martha, how many cares and troubles thou hast! But only one thing is necessary; and Mary has chosen for herself the best part of all, that which shall never be taken away from her.

    Nobody is saying that the bag lady you pass on the street is necessarily very much like Mary in the story above. However, I am inviting you to reflect that you and I are not necessarily better people than her given our various paths in life, and that the distance between any of us looks incredibly small when compared to the distance between all of us and that perfection to which we are called by Christ.

    Replies: @Wokechoke, @AP

    Nothing annoys an early adopter more than the most recent convert.

  110. @RSDB
    @AP


    He followed the letter of the law, yet he did not carry love in his heart.
     
    Yes, and would your statistics have counted him as sinful or not?

    Poor can be just as proud as rich people.

     

    They can be. Are they? Who marches in "pride parades"? Do your statistics measure pride? If not, are they accurate measures of sinfulness in toto?

    For those who enjoy the Gospels, being active in using the gifts one has been given is good. Idleness is not:

     

    In one of the villages he entered during his journey, a woman called Martha entertained him in her house. She had a sister called Mary; and Mary took her place at the Lord’s feet, and listened to his words. Martha was distracted by waiting on many needs; so she came to his side, and asked, Lord, art thou content that my sister should leave me to do the serving alone? Come, bid her help me. Jesus answered her, Martha, Martha, how many cares and troubles thou hast! But only one thing is necessary; and Mary has chosen for herself the best part of all, that which shall never be taken away from her.

    Nobody is saying that the bag lady you pass on the street is necessarily very much like Mary in the story above. However, I am inviting you to reflect that you and I are not necessarily better people than her given our various paths in life, and that the distance between any of us looks incredibly small when compared to the distance between all of us and that perfection to which we are called by Christ.

    Replies: @Wokechoke, @AP

    “He followed the letter of the law, yet he did not carry love in his heart.”

    Yes, and would your statistics have counted him as sinful or not?

    We can not measure what is in people’s hearts but we can infer it by statistics that measure things such as committing acts of violence such as assault or rape, or engaging in debasement such as drug abuse.

    And on these measures the poor (in general) do poorly compared to the rich. In Jesus time it was not the case.

    Nobody is saying that the bag lady you pass on the street is necessarily very much like Mary in the story above. However, I am inviting you to reflect that you and I are not necessarily better people than her given our various paths in life, and that the distance between any of us looks incredibly small when compared to the distance between all of us and that perfection to which we are called by Christ.

    I agree completely. The bag lady is probably mentally ill. I explicitly stated that a minority of poor are poor for no reason of their own at all.

    As for the rest – I describe, but do not judge. They should be, not idolized or praised as some kind of rebel against a bad capitalist order and allowed to further harm themselves (what a disgusting way to use human beings and their suffering) – but helped. And certainly not allowed to debase themselves and harm others.

    • Replies: @RSDB
    @AP


    We can not measure what is in people’s hearts but we can infer it by statistics
     
    What would you have inferred about the young man, the Pharisee, and the publican respectively?

    I describe, but do not judge.
     
    What is inferring what is in someone's heart?

    I agree completely.
     
    Yes, I think that we disagree mainly on words.

    My main problem is with the idea of the quantification of sin. For instance: you discussed earlier the way the system in California encourages delinquency and officials profit from that. Taking that on its face, as I have no reason not to, are not the people involved in creating and running that system, who lead comfortable lives and probably do not often shiv anybody themselves, taking an advantage which almost certainly involves sin or, to be a bit more precise, at the very least material cooperation in sin on their part? And would that culpability not be magnified by the responsibility of their position*?

    Of the four "sins which cry to heaven for vengeance", two cannot be committed by the destitute at all, and one of the remaining two is likely no more common among them than among their social superiors.

    *You will perhaps accuse me of judging them and the irony has not escaped me. However, we are considering here only a specific aspect, not the entire state of their souls. I think this is where the confusion comes in when discussing "judging" and I may be reacting to a mistaken reading of your meaning.

    Replies: @AP

    , @Barbarossa
    @AP


    things such as committing acts of violence such as assault or rape, or engaging in debasement such as drug abuse.

    And on these measures the poor (in general) do poorly compared to the rich.
     
    I am extremely doubtful that this is correct. It might be more accurate to say that the rich are less likely to prosecuted for these things. It's worth mentioning that drug abuse may be often be perfectly legal while no less debasing. Higher income groups can afford to feed and cover up an addiction or abuse and violence more convincingly than a poorer person, but a veneer of functionality or affluence can often mask terrible things.

    An extreme case that comes to mind is someone like Epstein. He is an outlier in scale but money and a good lawyer washes away a multitude of sins.

    As the below article points out, we aren't in the crack epidemic of the 80's anymore.

    https://www.turnbridge.com/news-events/latest-articles/socioeconomic-status-and-drug-use/#

    Replies: @AP

  111. @Mikel
    @Ivashka the fool


    Despite your insults, I have stayed polite and civil as a grown up man should be.
     
    If my memory doesn't fail, you both live in the same country. Perhaps you should invite Sher to meet up one day and just solve all your differences around some good burgers with fries.

    Replies: @Sher Singh, @Ivashka the fool

    I don’t have a different with him, but he has somehow found a way to have a different with me.

    He’s battling “failed American Slav White Liberal Neo-pagan LARPERs” in his own head.

    It must be a terrible experience.

    What can we do ?

    Only wish him to get better soon…

    🙂

  112. @Sher Singh
    @Mikel

    https://twitter.com/JDKnox4/status/1458940077757935620?s=20

    I go outside, and hear the birds sing.
    White genocide, it's a beautiful thing.

    Replies: @Ivashka the fool, @songbird

    You really are off the tracks today.

    Take your pills, have some sleep.

    It’s gonna be better tomorrow.

    🙂

  113. @AP
    @RSDB


    I don’t think the poor are especially sinful, as a class
     
    You are mistaken. They are more likely to commit various sins. I posted that earlier.

    That those who are low in society turn to the fiercer satisfactions, and doing so helps keep them poor, while those who are more wealthy can turn to more refined pleasures, is not especially surprising.
     
    Of course. Not only more refined, but less harmful. Our Christian society has been structured in such a way that sins are viewed as disreputable.

    I seem to recall someone saying something somewhere about camels and eyes of needles?
     
    Orthodox source:

    https://www.goarch.org/-/orthodox-christian-wealth-and-stewardship

    It would be easy to misunderstand Jesus here and to assume that it’s impossible for a rich person to get into heaven. But Jesus was most likely making an example of this self-righteous young ruler. He is a sad example of a person who is convinced he is religious, but misses the whole point. He followed the letter of the law, yet he did not carry love in his heart.

    St. Clement warns us not to interpret this passage to mean that wealth will keep us from the kingdom of heaven. He writes that it is the attitude of the soul that is important. It is the passion for wealth, not the wealth itself that condemns a man. Catholic source:

    https://blog.acton.org/archives/23341-st-clement-of-alexandria-on-the-value-of-wealth.html#:~:text=%E2%80%9CRiches%20then%20should%20not%20be,for%20the%20use%20of%20men.%E2%80%9D

    Clement wrote that a person could give everything away only to doubly regret his decision. To teach that Jesus intends for every disciple to give up everything contradicts statements like those of Luke 16:9, which urges us to make friends by the use of wealth. “Riches then should not be rejected if they can be of use to our neighbor. They are accurately called possessions because they are possessed by people, and goods or utilities because with them one can do good and because they have been ordained by God for the use of men.”

    What Clement is saying is that goods and possessions can be instruments in the hands of skilled servants who use them to bless others and advance great good. “Riches, then, are also an instrument.” If rightly used they can bring about justice and service. He added, “In themselves riches are blameless.”

    Pride, for instance, the first sin and chief of sins, does not seem to be quite so much of a temptation to the poor of America
     
    Poor can be just as proud as rich people. A lot of poor people even needlessly kill one another over issues of pride and respect.

    For those who enjoy the Gospels, being active in using the gifts one has been given is good. Idleness is not:



    https://i.imgur.com/XdRuUhz.png

    Replies: @RSDB, @Mikel

    You are mistaken. They are more likely to commit various sins. I posted that earlier.

    You just showed some crude correlation between sinful acts and poverty but the causality is uncertain. People living in poverty are more likely to engage in some antisocial behaviors out of necessity, eg a destitute person is of course more much likely to feel the need to steal than a wealthy individual leading a comfortable life. Likewise, a person born and grown up among immoral people is less likely to learn good habits and prosper in life than if that same person had been born in a virtuous family. So that correlation on its own doesn’t necessarily teach us much about any innate tendencies among people who happen to be born in different social classes (I do think that there might be some innate poverty-immorality link but not that your data demonstrates it).

    It would be easy to misunderstand Jesus here and to assume that it’s impossible for a rich person to get into heaven.

    How can anyone misunderstand this?

    “I’ll say it again-it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the Kingdom of God!” Matthew 19:24

    This is exactly what I was taught Jesus had said when I was a child. Having been born in a rather well-to-do family, I remember feeling threatened by this remark of Jesus and finding it cruel. I still had the time to become poor later in later in life, I thought, but what about my parents? Were they virtually condemned to go to hell?

    • Replies: @AP
    @Mikel


    You just showed some crude correlation between sinful acts and poverty but the causality is uncertain. People living in poverty are more likely to engage in some antisocial behaviors out of necessity, eg a destitute person is of course more much likely to feel the need to steal than a wealthy individual leading a comfortable life.
     
    Read Murray's Coming Apart. The poor live more sinful lives than the middle and upper classes. Not just the desperate poor. And in the USA few people can be considered to be desperately poor, on the edge of starvation, etc.

    "It would be easy to misunderstand Jesus here and to assume that it’s impossible for a rich person to get into heaven."

    How can anyone misunderstand this?

    “I’ll say it again-it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the Kingdom of God!” Matthew 19:24
     

    They misunderstand it when they don't read the entire passage, and as a result get a false meaning based on a snippet. Here is the full one:

    "And Jesus said to his disciples, “Truly, I say to you, only with difficulty will a rich person enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God.” When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished, saying, “Who then can be saved?” But Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

    Nor do they consider it together with other passages (see my other post).

    This is why it is foolish to pick individual quotes to try to prove something, instead of following the teachings of the Church. The Church teaches that wealth is not as important as faith and use of that wealth in accordance with faith. St. Clement in the 2nd century wrote that possessi0n are not in themselves good or evil but it depends how they are used and it is sinful to allow oneself to be controlled by them or be obsessed by the need for their acquisition. But there is nothing wrong with being rich as long as one uses his wealth well and is not too attached to it.

    When the priest reads Mathew 19:24 he reads it all and explains it in that way.

    Replies: @HeavilyMarbledSteak, @Mr. Hack, @Another Polish Perspective, @Mikel

    , @RSDB
    @Mikel


    (I do think that there might be some innate poverty-immorality link but not that your data demonstrates it)
     
    The problem is-- what is immorality here? We all know murdering someone is wrong. What about educating someone else's children in perversion and lies? How many bad schoolteachers, bad professors, or bad university administrators are homeless?

    Or- we know the poor receive abortions more than the rich, certainly*. But, of abortionists themselves, how many are poor? Do they show up in murder statistics? The vast administrative and legal structure that exists to support them? People who give money to these organizations?

    I've read commenter Twinkie describe the world of Capitol Hill, to paraphrase, as a place where incompetence, greed, and treason come together and fructify, and he has also said that unmistakable treason was being winked at when he worked in the defense industry. Are congressional staffers holding out tin cups on the streets of DC? ADA programmers?

    Read the article Barbarossa linked on drug use: https://www.turnbridge.com/news-events/latest-articles/socioeconomic-status-and-drug-use/# I found it shocking; you might at least find it interesting.

    Were they virtually condemned to go to hell?

     

    No. AP is right. They have, however, added responsibilities relative to their wealth, which require supernatural grace to meet. Fortunately "supernatural" doesn't necessarily mean "rare".

    I think I know what AP is getting at, which is that in cases of alcoholism etc. one must admit fault in order to improve rather than blaming society, even if "society" is partly to blame, and it's not fair to the sufferer either to deny him agency or to suggest that it is better for him not to change at all. However, when this argument has come to inferring degree of sinfulness from crime statistics something has come off the rails.

    It's possible to be homeless out of saintliness, as in the case of St. Benedict Labre. I don't think it's common.

    *Although the Brookings Institute argues the reverse: https://www.brookings.edu/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/26_class_gaps_unintended_pregnancy.pdf
    Actually pretty interesting. Something to think about.

    Replies: @Mikel

  114. @Yahya
    @songbird


    More trollish and amusing to call you a low-caste Tuareg. It satisfies the requirement of being a “sand people”, while tying you to recent West African slave admixture
     
    Keep lying yourself. You were simply too ignorant and confused to select the correct Afro-Arab group found in my parts of town.

    Am afraid the rest of your recent comments (“You are a neo-Nazi if you mention Germany on a geopolitical forum”, “The average Greek feels an intense brotherhood with Arabs”, “Ancient Greece and Rome were PoC, and not the cradle of European civilization”, etc) are just too dumb to address.
     
    You are too dumb to even quote me properly. Just putting words in my mouth; twisting them to suit your purposes. As usual.

    Never have I said Greeks feel an intense brotherhood with Arab. I said Ancient Greeks were part of the Eastern Mediterranean oikumene during antiquity. A historical fact; which you seem incapable of absorbing; because you are a mirror image of the "we wuz kangz" brigade; absurdly projecting present-day American racial lingo ("PoC") to the ancient world; and attempting to appropriate Greek historical achievements, though your people played no part in it.

    Why don't you read a book sometime on Ancient Greece? Figure out which part of the world they interacted with the most at the time. Maybe then you wouldn't be such an ahistorical cretin.

    But for now; I leave you once again with a map of genetic distance from Mycenaean and Minoan Greeks; so you can let go of your simplistic notions of "white" vs "poc" division across the Bosporus.

    https://preview.redd.it/2w20vkg9xrm61.jpg?auto=webp&s=24fa458dad7aadc9fc437f0ceb0d485e6c97b577

    But my guess is that your thick skull won't allow entry to these basic, fundamental facts.

    So continue being a retard.

    Replies: @songbird

    You are too dumb to even quote me properly. Just putting words in my mouth

    Would use blockquotes, if I were trying to quote you. (Or punish anyone reading this thread). But you said nothing meaningful, and were disrespectful, so I chose to satirize you.

    [MORE]

    Will address your point about the genetics of Ancient Greece though, since it is semi-cogent, and I don’t think I made a proper response to it. To attempt to summarize:

    You are correct that Ancient Greeks were more closely related to Ancient Anatolians than Modern Greeks are to Turks, and your explanation about why this has changed is also right.

    You are correct (but straw-manning) to object and say this doesn’t meant that Turks aren’t the descendants of Ancient Greeks. (In fact, I have never claimed that they weren’t)

    What I did say, and what is true is that modern Greeks and Turks have a relatively high genetic distance for neighboring countries. (BTW, don’t believe you acknowledged this, and I am not quite sure you understand what it means.)

    It literally means that modern Greeks are more genetically related to the French than to Turks. Relatedness =/= descent. But that doesn’t mean that relatedness isn’t meaningful.

    [To give an extreme example: if a Swede misceginates with a Nigerian, then they are literally more genetically related to a random Swede than they will be to their own kids. If they are looking for a bone-marrow transplant, or an organ transplant, they’ll probably need to get it from someone other than their children.

    You might say, “Well, they are still their children.” And that is true, but their genetic distance to their children is very high and there are consequences to that – it isn’t just some abstract number, but something that represents a tangible reality]

    I have speculated that this is what explains modern tensions and political differences. Now, I grant you this is where my logic might be a little murky or a reach. The genes are mixed up with history, religion, and culture.

    I think it is pretty obvious that, if the Ottomans had been utterly defeated, Greece and Turkey would be one country and one culture. That is alt history. Maybe, not especially likely. And it is possible to imagine crazier scenarios.

    What if we secretly shifted the DNA of the Turks or the Greeks to reduce the genetic distance to zero, without letting them catch on? Would it reduce tensions? If we didn’t change the historical baggage or cultural differences? I would guess not. (Am too lazy to look it up, but I think Bosnians and Serbs are much more closely related)

    Anyway, whatever the case, it is notable that the genetic distance is so high. And I don’t understand why you can’t seem to acknowledge that, and leave it at that. That was really what my original post was about.

    • Replies: @Yahya
    @songbird


    What I did say, and what is true is that modern Greeks and Turks have a relatively high genetic distance for neighboring countries.
     
    Greeks are even more distant from Celtoids. Doesn’t stop you from taking vicarious pride in Greek accomplishments and pretending as if they belong to the same ethno-racial group as yourself. You probably don’t even have a single drop of detectable Greek ancestry, yet you presume to tell Turks, who are both descended from and genetically more related to modern and ancient Greeks; that they are just too distant from Greeks.

    Anyway, whatever the case, it is notable that the genetic distance is so high.
     
    It’s not high. Greeks are literally closer to Turks than just about 99% of people on the planet. On a regional PCA they plot in the same quadrant. On a global PCA they would practically be indistinguishable. That you cherry-pick France as the basis for comparison is deception par excellence.

    You are too obsessed with your cherished concept of “Europe” as a coherent ethno-racial block to understand that Greeks are closer to Turks than they are to Russians, Swedes, Englishmen, Irishmen, Germans etc. and most Europeans save for a few groups in the South.

    It’s almost as if some redneck teacher took you aside in your schooldays and said “well look it here birdie, this here Greece is located in Europe, so they are a huwite people. And this here Turkey is in Aysia, so they be folks of color down there." And you just took this as an eternal truth and carried it with you for the rest of your life. Maybe you are just too American to understand that the world exists outside of American racial conceptions.


    But that doesn’t mean that relatedness isn’t meaningful. [To give an extreme example: if a Swede misceginates with a Nigerian, then they are literally more genetically related to a random Swede than they will be to their own kids.
     
    Your argument reminds me of Hitler's idea that Slavs were "Mongolian" or "Turkoman" untermensch because they had some Asiatic genetic traces; instead of what they really were, which is people of the same racial stock as Germans, who on a global scale, were basically genetically indistinguishable.

    The East Asian admixture in Turks is not comparable to a mulatto Swede. The Turks are still 80%+ Caucasoid; how many Turks do you see with Asiatic features? Again, perhaps it is this one-drop rule you have acquired from being an American that has turned your brain into mush regarding this topic.


    Anyway, whatever the case, it is notable that the genetic distance is so high. And I don’t understand why you can’t seem to acknowledge that, and leave it at that. That was really what my original post was about.
     
    You're wrong on nearly everything on this topic. You don't understand genetics. You are ignorant about history. When I contradict your empty assertions with concrete facts; you lie, you deflect, you twist and you deceive. It is you who should admit error.

    You were right only once, towards the end when you admitted that your previous assertion that genetic distance caused tension may have been erroneous. Greek and Turkish enmity is a result of cultural and religious differences, not genetics. We can see that even with an almost identical group as Russians and Ukrainians; there is still conflict and hostility. Likewise, the English were as genetically close as you can get to the Irish, when they had their boots on them. Serbs and Croats - same in all aspects but religious sect. Indians and Pakistanis. The list goes on and on.

    Replies: @songbird, @AP

  115. Hilarious news coming from NY:

    A former top FBI counterintelligence official – in fact, the guy who received the tip that supposedly kicked off the Trump-Russia investigation – has been arrested and charged with violating US sanctions on Russia by taking secret payments from a Russian oligarch in order to investigate another oligarch.

    https://www.zerohedge.com/political/top-fbi-russiagate-official-took-secret-payments-russian-oligarch-doj

    [MORE]

  116. @Sher Singh
    @Mikel

    https://twitter.com/JDKnox4/status/1458940077757935620?s=20

    I go outside, and hear the birds sing.
    White genocide, it's a beautiful thing.

    Replies: @Ivashka the fool, @songbird

    [MORE]

    • Disagree: Sher Singh
    • Replies: @Thulean Friend
    @songbird


    Only Sikh Majority Punjab India Has a High Chance of Becoming Sikh Minority in next 20 yrs
     
    At first glance, this seemed improbable but the Indian census seems to back it up.

    https://i.imgur.com/YHQqFRt.png

    The 2010s saw a *massive* emigration wave out of Punjab, often Sikhs to Canada. The Indian 2023 census should probably still show a slight Sikh majority but the 2030s could very well be when they fall into absolute minority status, even before Whites in America.

    Given this background, his racebaiting is almost comical. He already belongs to a stateless people. Now on the cusp of becoming minorities in their historic homeland. Impossible to take clowns like that seriously given their own precarious position(s).


    To be frank, I wouldn't spend too much time on either singh or yahya. Neither is particularly intelligent and both are aggrieved by racial inferiority complex. FWIW, if you have a Twitter acc or a Telegram acc I would be interested in following it. This blog is probably slowly dying anyway. If I wanted to read some 3rd worlder's /pol/tard take I could just go to the original source.

    Replies: @Yahya, @songbird

  117. @sudden death
    @Barbarossa

    One of the possible explanations, mine bolding:


    The SARS-CoV-2 infection causes severe immune disruption. However, it is unclear if disrupted immune regulation still exists and pertains in recovered COVID-19 patients. In our study, we have characterized the immune phenotype of B cells from 15 recovered COVID-19 patients, and found that healthy controls and recovered patients had similar B-cell populations before and after BCR stimulation, but the frequencies of PBC in patients were significantly increased when compared to healthy controls before stimulation. However, the percentage of unswitched memory B cells was decreased in recovered patients but not changed in healthy controls upon BCR stimulation. Interestingly, we found that CD19 expression was significantly reduced in almost all the B-cell subsets in recovered patients. Moreover, the BCR signaling and early B-cell response were disrupted upon BCR stimulation. Mechanistically, we found that the reduced CD19 expression was caused by the dysregulation of cell metabolism. In conclusion, we found that SARS-CoV-2 infection causes immunodeficiency in recovered patients by downregulating CD19 expression in B cells via enhancing B-cell metabolism, which may provide a new intervention target to cure COVID-19.

     

    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41392-021-00749-3

    Replies: @Barbarossa

    The article is more technical than I can fully understand. However, my idiot/ layman’s takeaway is as follows.

    Covid short circuits the immune system’s memory pathways in unusual ways (cellular metabolic hyperactivity) to avoid detection. At the time the article was written (September 2021) they were unsure if that deficiency in immune system memory applied to future Covid infections or to infections caused by other causes.

    Anyone with more technical knowledge can please feel free to correct me. I also did a bit of additional looking and it seems like there is not much additional certainty out there to expand on that article.

    I’ll do a little spitballing. Perhaps some of the recurrent mild colds are due to an overactive immune system response not an underactive one and are basically immune system over-reactions to what never would have registered previously as illnesses.

    I’m also thinking about my pre-Covid experience contrasted with some public schooled families. We live in a rural/ farm environment and are quite social which seems as though it would be a pretty good recipe for broad based immune system building without excessive exposure. This seemed to bear out with the infrequency of illnesses.

    Perhaps the problem with the public school environment is that it is too much of a petri dish and the much greater exposure load is often too much and causes some level of immune response hyperactivity and exhaustion.

    If true maybe a similar effect is at work with Covid. The side effects of immune system hyperactivity that Covid seems likely to cause could be over stressing and over stimulating many of our immune systems. The immune system hyperactivity could be giving a foothold that other infections are exploiting, the spread of which overstimulates our immune system yet again.

    Perhaps we are seeing a cascading effect of overstimulated and flailing immune systems which will take quite a while to fully settle out.

    At any rate it seems my previous spitballing on cancer incidences would likely be incorrect, but it seems likely that we will see a spike in autoimmune issues.

    • Replies: @Ivashka the fool
    @Barbarossa

    Sometimes an immune system overstimulation can lead to as subsequent immune system deficiency. It happens with the superantigens.


    A hyperinflammatory syndrome reminiscent of toxic shock syndrome (TSS) is observed in severe COVID-19 patients, including children with Multisystem Inflammatory Syndrome in Children (MIS-C). TSS is typically caused by pathogenic superantigens stimulating excessive activation of the adaptive immune system. We show that SARS-CoV-2 spike contains sequence and structure motifs highly similar to those of a bacterial superantigen and may directly bind T cell receptors. We further report a skewed T cell receptor repertoire in COVID-19 patients with severe hyperinflammation, in support of such a superantigenic effect. Notably, the superantigen-like motif is not present in other SARS family coronaviruses, which may explain the unique potential for SARS-CoV-2 to cause both MIS-C and the cytokine storm observed in adult COVID-19.
     
    https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2010722117

    Looks like Covid can cause both a T cell and a B cell deregulation.

    It has been posited SARS-CoV-2 contains at least one unique superantigen-like motif not found in any other SARS or endemic coronaviruses. Superantigens are potent antigens that can send the immune system into overdrive. SARS-CoV-2 causes many of the biological and clinical consequences of a superantigen, and, in the context of reinfection and waning immunity, it is important to better understand the impact of a widely circulating, airborne pathogen that may be a superantigen, superantigen-like or trigger a superantigenic host response. Urgent research is needed to better understand the long-term risks being taken by governments whose policies enable widespread transmission of a potential superantigenic pathogen, and to more clearly define the vaccination and public health policies needed to protect against the consequences of repeat exposure to the pathogen.
     
    https://www.mdpi.com/2076-0817/11/4/390

    Might explain why after been in contact with the spike protein, through both COVID-19 infection and /or vaccine, the immune system of the infected person would become unbalanced and less efficient.

    BTW the superantigenic insert is yet another very peculiar feature of the COVID-19 genome.

    Replies: @Barbarossa

  118. @Mikel
    @Barbarossa


    If our immune systems are doing a noticeably poorer job keeping pathogens from getting to a symptomatic level what implications does that have for other functions of the immune system such as eliminating cancer cells before they take hold?
     
    Good question. But I wouldn't be too worried, the mechanisms must be quite different. Otherwise, people with compromised immune systems would be more prone to getting cancer and I've never heard of that being a risk factor for cancer in general. This is not my area of expertise at all though. It would be interesting to read AnonfromTN's take on this. I get the feeling that Ivashka may know a couple of things on this type of subjects too.

    For whatever it's worth, I haven't noticed much of a difference after catching a very mild form of Covid and getting the mRNA vaccine afterwards. I don't remember having caught any cold in the past couple of years but I did have a weird strep-kind of throat infection some months ago that I attributed to bugs running rampant post-Covid. As you say, it seems to be an established fact that people lost immunity during the lockdowns and mandatory masking due to lack of exposure. I've actually read about that in the news several times. Perhaps the fact that I haven't noticed much difference is due to the part of Utah where I live having always been open during the Covid scare. There were no lockdowns and masks were only mandatory in healthcare facilities. It must have been more strict in New York state.

    Glad that you brought up the topic in the safest part of Unz. Otherwise, we would have gotten an avalanche of conspiracy-themed comments, making any sane discussion impossible.

    Replies: @Barbarossa

    Glad that you brought up the topic in the safest part of Unz.

    Trust me, if I had not had full confidence that it would be discussed in a sane and interesting way I wouldn’t have brought it up! NY was more strict in general, but my part of the state was really probably effectively the equivalent of what you did in Utah.

  119. @Barbarossa
    @sudden death

    The article is more technical than I can fully understand. However, my idiot/ layman's takeaway is as follows.

    Covid short circuits the immune system's memory pathways in unusual ways (cellular metabolic hyperactivity) to avoid detection. At the time the article was written (September 2021) they were unsure if that deficiency in immune system memory applied to future Covid infections or to infections caused by other causes.

    Anyone with more technical knowledge can please feel free to correct me. I also did a bit of additional looking and it seems like there is not much additional certainty out there to expand on that article.

    I'll do a little spitballing. Perhaps some of the recurrent mild colds are due to an overactive immune system response not an underactive one and are basically immune system over-reactions to what never would have registered previously as illnesses.

    I'm also thinking about my pre-Covid experience contrasted with some public schooled families. We live in a rural/ farm environment and are quite social which seems as though it would be a pretty good recipe for broad based immune system building without excessive exposure. This seemed to bear out with the infrequency of illnesses.

    Perhaps the problem with the public school environment is that it is too much of a petri dish and the much greater exposure load is often too much and causes some level of immune response hyperactivity and exhaustion.

    If true maybe a similar effect is at work with Covid. The side effects of immune system hyperactivity that Covid seems likely to cause could be over stressing and over stimulating many of our immune systems. The immune system hyperactivity could be giving a foothold that other infections are exploiting, the spread of which overstimulates our immune system yet again.

    Perhaps we are seeing a cascading effect of overstimulated and flailing immune systems which will take quite a while to fully settle out.

    At any rate it seems my previous spitballing on cancer incidences would likely be incorrect, but it seems likely that we will see a spike in autoimmune issues.

    Replies: @Ivashka the fool

    Sometimes an immune system overstimulation can lead to as subsequent immune system deficiency. It happens with the superantigens.

    A hyperinflammatory syndrome reminiscent of toxic shock syndrome (TSS) is observed in severe COVID-19 patients, including children with Multisystem Inflammatory Syndrome in Children (MIS-C). TSS is typically caused by pathogenic superantigens stimulating excessive activation of the adaptive immune system. We show that SARS-CoV-2 spike contains sequence and structure motifs highly similar to those of a bacterial superantigen and may directly bind T cell receptors. We further report a skewed T cell receptor repertoire in COVID-19 patients with severe hyperinflammation, in support of such a superantigenic effect. Notably, the superantigen-like motif is not present in other SARS family coronaviruses, which may explain the unique potential for SARS-CoV-2 to cause both MIS-C and the cytokine storm observed in adult COVID-19.

    https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2010722117

    Looks like Covid can cause both a T cell and a B cell deregulation.

    It has been posited SARS-CoV-2 contains at least one unique superantigen-like motif not found in any other SARS or endemic coronaviruses. Superantigens are potent antigens that can send the immune system into overdrive. SARS-CoV-2 causes many of the biological and clinical consequences of a superantigen, and, in the context of reinfection and waning immunity, it is important to better understand the impact of a widely circulating, airborne pathogen that may be a superantigen, superantigen-like or trigger a superantigenic host response. Urgent research is needed to better understand the long-term risks being taken by governments whose policies enable widespread transmission of a potential superantigenic pathogen, and to more clearly define the vaccination and public health policies needed to protect against the consequences of repeat exposure to the pathogen.

    https://www.mdpi.com/2076-0817/11/4/390

    Might explain why after been in contact with the spike protein, through both COVID-19 infection and /or vaccine, the immune system of the infected person would become unbalanced and less efficient.

    BTW the superantigenic insert is yet another very peculiar feature of the COVID-19 genome.

    • Replies: @Barbarossa
    @Ivashka the fool

    That all makes sense to me. As a practical matter it would seem to me that the best policy would to attempt to bring the immune system into a better state of self regulation. Previously I was thinking more in terms of boosting immune system activity but now I'm leaning more toward regulation and support.

    I would guess that herbs and foods with natural antibiotic and antiviral properties would be helpful since they would take some pressure off an over stimulated immune system. Strangely enough though, I always had extremely good results from drinking an extremely strong fresh ginger tea to kick a cold. Since the Covid era, it doesn't seem to have the same effect. I'll have to do more reading and experimentation to see if I can find any combinations which make a noticeable difference.

    Replies: @Ivashka the fool, @Emil Nikola Richard

  120. @AP
    @HeavilyMarbledSteak


    And I guess there’s little point in repeating that Jesus said we should give up wealth
     
    Wealth is irrelevant, if one believes in God and uses it accordingly. A greedy sinful poor person is not better than a virtuous and generous rich one.

    I also note that you didn’t respond to my pointing out that the highest form of prayer in the Heyschast tradition is contemplation, which is emptying the mind and doing nothing
     
    I missed that. No Hesychasm is not "doing nothing" but assuming a particular pose for a long time, engaging in rhythmic breathing, and repeating the Jesus prayer while matching it to the breathing over and over again. It is too active for a lazy consumer such as you.

    If you take a few years to work on this tradition, rather than engage in your "eat pray love" tourism in the wilderness, than you will be making something of yourself.

    But it’s interesting that you are defending Christianity from the “slur” of not focusing on material ends
     
    As a hopeless materialist you can only conceive of activity and work in this world as having "material ends."

    like the Bolsheviks, you accept that materialism is the yardstick of value
     
    Don't misrepresent what I wrote. . I wrote about activity and you claim I wrote about "materialism."

    One of the things that irks me about political discussions these days is that all sides, left and right, argue from the same set of shared assumptions and values.
     
    Correction: you are incapable of seeing beyond your bourgeois nature so you falsely assume that others share your assumptions and values.

    As a bourgeois materialist you cannot conceive of activity as not having to do with "materialism."

    As a bourgeois materialist you struggle to conceive of family or marriage as not having to do with social status or transactions of some kind.

    so activity that we do for its own sake and not for some other end – like appreciating the beauty of nature – is an act of “consumption”
     
    For you, the bourgeois materialist, it is indeed so.

    Because if you cannot appreciate beauty in seemingly mundane things, even man-made things, than you are incapable of really appreciating it. So you collect rare experiences in remote places like some other bourgeois might collect shoes. It's all the same with your kind.

    even within the capitalist paradigm whose terms you are employing, the purpose of work is so that one can consume...So let’s just say then I’m a defender of “consumption” as being primary, and the means to consumption secondary
     
    At least you honestly admit it. You are a materialist bourgeois, but without even the virtue of being hard working. You are just a consumer, or parasite, of other's work. One who in his arrogance and pride compares himself to some monk.

    Replies: @HeavilyMarbledSteak

    Wealth is irrelevant, if one believes in God and uses it accordingly. A greedy sinful poor person is not better than a virtuous and generous rich one.

    The possession of wealth, according to Jesus, imposes on its bearer certain states of mind that make it difficult to experience heaven.

    Of course, many of the poor are no better off, also anxious about physical things and highly materialist.

    Jesus doesn’t say the poor will automatically enter heaven, only that having wealth is a barrier to entering it. It’s easy for to see why.

    I missed that. No Hesychasm is not “doing nothing” but assuming a particular pose for a long time, engaging in rhythmic breathing, and repeating the Jesus prayer while matching it to the breathing over and over again. It is too active for a lazy consumer such as you.

    Actually, growing up in a corrupted society focused on action, it takes a surprising amount of “discipline” to simply do nothing.

    We have to resist all our conditioning, the habits and instincts of a society that focuses on superficial activity.

    From our starting point, it takes conscious will to resist social conditioning. But it’s a curious kind of “action” in that it’s non-action 🙂

    There is a classic of Zen called The Gateless Gate – in this book it is constantly emphasized that there is no gate one must pass through, there is nothing to be accomplished and nothing to do, and that realizing that is precisely the gate one must pass through 🙂

    Much spirituality is actually de-conditioning ourselves from our social upbringing and the effects of a society focused on disguising what constitutes true human flourishing – and revealing our true natures as God made them for the first time.

    This idea of course is central to Taoism, but one of the fascinating things I found out while reading about the Desert Fathers and the early Christian ascetics this summer is that many of them had the exact same notion of fleeing society to reveal the perfection of our true nature as God intended.

    Today, we tend to think Christianity says our “true nature” is sinful and bad, but it turns out the early Christians – at least many of them – had the Taoistic notion that our true natures are good and it is society that corrupts.

    The more you move away from later Christianity, and especially modern, the more you come to see why it was originally seen as such a positive and optimistic movement, especially against the backdrop of an overly corrupt, complex, artificial, Roman civilization..

  121. @Ivashka the fool
    @Barbarossa

    Sometimes an immune system overstimulation can lead to as subsequent immune system deficiency. It happens with the superantigens.


    A hyperinflammatory syndrome reminiscent of toxic shock syndrome (TSS) is observed in severe COVID-19 patients, including children with Multisystem Inflammatory Syndrome in Children (MIS-C). TSS is typically caused by pathogenic superantigens stimulating excessive activation of the adaptive immune system. We show that SARS-CoV-2 spike contains sequence and structure motifs highly similar to those of a bacterial superantigen and may directly bind T cell receptors. We further report a skewed T cell receptor repertoire in COVID-19 patients with severe hyperinflammation, in support of such a superantigenic effect. Notably, the superantigen-like motif is not present in other SARS family coronaviruses, which may explain the unique potential for SARS-CoV-2 to cause both MIS-C and the cytokine storm observed in adult COVID-19.
     
    https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2010722117

    Looks like Covid can cause both a T cell and a B cell deregulation.

    It has been posited SARS-CoV-2 contains at least one unique superantigen-like motif not found in any other SARS or endemic coronaviruses. Superantigens are potent antigens that can send the immune system into overdrive. SARS-CoV-2 causes many of the biological and clinical consequences of a superantigen, and, in the context of reinfection and waning immunity, it is important to better understand the impact of a widely circulating, airborne pathogen that may be a superantigen, superantigen-like or trigger a superantigenic host response. Urgent research is needed to better understand the long-term risks being taken by governments whose policies enable widespread transmission of a potential superantigenic pathogen, and to more clearly define the vaccination and public health policies needed to protect against the consequences of repeat exposure to the pathogen.
     
    https://www.mdpi.com/2076-0817/11/4/390

    Might explain why after been in contact with the spike protein, through both COVID-19 infection and /or vaccine, the immune system of the infected person would become unbalanced and less efficient.

    BTW the superantigenic insert is yet another very peculiar feature of the COVID-19 genome.

    Replies: @Barbarossa

    That all makes sense to me. As a practical matter it would seem to me that the best policy would to attempt to bring the immune system into a better state of self regulation. Previously I was thinking more in terms of boosting immune system activity but now I’m leaning more toward regulation and support.

    I would guess that herbs and foods with natural antibiotic and antiviral properties would be helpful since they would take some pressure off an over stimulated immune system. Strangely enough though, I always had extremely good results from drinking an extremely strong fresh ginger tea to kick a cold. Since the Covid era, it doesn’t seem to have the same effect. I’ll have to do more reading and experimentation to see if I can find any combinations which make a noticeable difference.

    • Replies: @Ivashka the fool
    @Barbarossa

    Perhaps you might want to look into the flavonoids.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5465813/

    You can buy concentrated preparations.

    I also use ginger tea with honey and lemon when I have minor colds.

    , @Emil Nikola Richard
    @Barbarossa

    1. George Washington's rules civility: never give medical advice to anybody unless you are employed as their doctor.

    2. Roger Federer's competition guide: if sleep were a performance enhancing drug, it would be 20X more powerful than the second best performance drug.

    Battle of the Nations
    Russia Denmark

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ol-RRSlCmjU&ab_channel=AustralianOpenTV

  122. @Barbarossa
    @RSDB

    I've often reflected how strange it is that the 7 deadly sins are basically the motive virtues of the modern world. Lust, greed, pride, etc. are all deified.

    I suppose it's not really surprising that a society that elevates such characteristics would have an increasing number of failures, represented by the homeless and the addicted. In some cases anyhow they may be seen as the result of what happens when some of these vices fully take control of a life. The rich may very often be an example of the same vices harnessed to a self-serving extent.

    This isn't to say that I dismiss the homeless as bad people. In many cases they are hapless victims of a sick and twisted society which doesn't even possess the sense to have moral standards and safeguards for those who may not have sharp enough wits to discern their own.

    Any way you look at it, I think it's impossible for these cases of human failure to be seen as anything but an unflattering mirror on the broken society that creates and perpetuates such cases.

    Replies: @RSDB

    Going to your original point several threads ago about familial breakdown, I know someone in Colombo, who would probably be homeless in the US as a white American.

    [MORE]

    Actually not inconsiderable quantities of money have passed through his hands at various times in his life and every single time they have passed out again to the poor and to anyone who was in want, or seemed to be. (Not necessarily the so-called “deserving poor” either but this is getting far afield.)

    He was a brilliant student in his youth and was, I believe, the highest scorer up to that point on the mate’s exam in the SL merchant marine; at any rate I know he worked as a navigator on various ships before beginning to develop schizophrenia, or at least what was diagnosed as schizophrenia. Schizophrenia in those days was treated by shock therapy, which was not very helpful, but, anyway, by the time I got to know him, he was on medication which helped make him seem fairly normal although it had various unpleasant side effects. If you got into a conversation with him, he was very well-read and quite perceptive. As I mentioned, money passed through his hands like water. He lives with extended family and looks after various things around the house, takes the children to school, etc. Actually he has a part interest in the house which is the only property he hasn’t given away over the years, probably because he feels it is a sort of trust.

    For a while he worked for his brother’s business but he tends to be very bad at handling people diplomatically, whether that is an effect of the disease or the medication, which made that a bad idea. Anyway he is probably, also, one of the most saintly people I have ever known, insofar as one can tell such things.

    The point of this anecdote is that a strong family does have an effect in keeping people together who might otherwise fall to pieces. It’s not a fail-safe but the atomization of society is certainly one factor among many in our crazy upside-down universe of values.

    • Agree: Ivashka the fool
    • Thanks: Barbarossa
  123. @Mikel
    @AP


    You are mistaken. They are more likely to commit various sins. I posted that earlier.
     
    You just showed some crude correlation between sinful acts and poverty but the causality is uncertain. People living in poverty are more likely to engage in some antisocial behaviors out of necessity, eg a destitute person is of course more much likely to feel the need to steal than a wealthy individual leading a comfortable life. Likewise, a person born and grown up among immoral people is less likely to learn good habits and prosper in life than if that same person had been born in a virtuous family. So that correlation on its own doesn't necessarily teach us much about any innate tendencies among people who happen to be born in different social classes (I do think that there might be some innate poverty-immorality link but not that your data demonstrates it).

    It would be easy to misunderstand Jesus here and to assume that it’s impossible for a rich person to get into heaven.
     
    How can anyone misunderstand this?

    "I'll say it again-it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the Kingdom of God!" Matthew 19:24

    This is exactly what I was taught Jesus had said when I was a child. Having been born in a rather well-to-do family, I remember feeling threatened by this remark of Jesus and finding it cruel. I still had the time to become poor later in later in life, I thought, but what about my parents? Were they virtually condemned to go to hell?

    Replies: @AP, @RSDB

    You just showed some crude correlation between sinful acts and poverty but the causality is uncertain. People living in poverty are more likely to engage in some antisocial behaviors out of necessity, eg a destitute person is of course more much likely to feel the need to steal than a wealthy individual leading a comfortable life.

    Read Murray’s Coming Apart. The poor live more sinful lives than the middle and upper classes. Not just the desperate poor. And in the USA few people can be considered to be desperately poor, on the edge of starvation, etc.

    “It would be easy to misunderstand Jesus here and to assume that it’s impossible for a rich person to get into heaven.”

    How can anyone misunderstand this?

    “I’ll say it again-it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the Kingdom of God!” Matthew 19:24

    They misunderstand it when they don’t read the entire passage, and as a result get a false meaning based on a snippet. Here is the full one:

    “And Jesus said to his disciples, “Truly, I say to you, only with difficulty will a rich person enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God.” When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished, saying, “Who then can be saved?” But Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

    Nor do they consider it together with other passages (see my other post).

    This is why it is foolish to pick individual quotes to try to prove something, instead of following the teachings of the Church. The Church teaches that wealth is not as important as faith and use of that wealth in accordance with faith. St. Clement in the 2nd century wrote that possessi0n are not in themselves good or evil but it depends how they are used and it is sinful to allow oneself to be controlled by them or be obsessed by the need for their acquisition. But there is nothing wrong with being rich as long as one uses his wealth well and is not too attached to it.

    When the priest reads Mathew 19:24 he reads it all and explains it in that way.

    • Agree: Mr. Hack
    • Replies: @HeavilyMarbledSteak
    @AP

    Indeed, with God all things are possible - since I believe in universal salvation with no one being eternally damned, (which somehow I'm quite sure you don't :) ) even the wicked and wealthy will eventually be brought by God into heaven.

    Of course, in the meantime a lot of self-inflicted pain will have to be endured as the wealthy and ambitious psychologically and spiritually distance themselves from God and refuse to realize the true ends of human life as God intended and succumb to the mania for merely securing existence, and that's not nothing, even if it all ends well.

    But at some point, AP, you'll be alright, even if now you suffer :)

    , @Mr. Hack
    @AP

    Although I'm in basic accordance with your view here, one still has to take Jesus at his word, that:


    “Truly, I say to you, only with difficulty will a rich person enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God.”
     
    In other words, only those that completely submit themselves to the will of God will be ultimately saved. It appears that the pleasures afforded by riches will lure many into a life that is not firstly God centered, as I think Aaron has been trying to emphasize. But as you correctly point out, there is a way out of this morass, because:

    “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”
     
    So the most important tools in ones journey to salvation are a repentant heart and a belief in a merciful God.

    Replies: @AP

    , @Another Polish Perspective
    @AP

    AP, are you a Protestant or do you come from Protestant milieu?

    Your focus on "poor living more sinful lives" etc - whether you want or not - to some extent elevates wealth/material status to a proxy for moral/ethical status. That has reminded me about Calvin predestination theory, a theory which says that God has already chosen and this choice is expressed through his grace for the blessed, and lack of it for the damned. For some reason, it was further interpreted as the wealth being the sign of the grace of God, or of being chosen.


    The Church teaches that wealth is not as important as faith and use of that wealth in accordance with faith.
     
    This sounds very Protestant to me.
    Non-Protestant Churches do not teach that, as they stress that deeds are as important as faith is, and MORE IMPORTANT THAN WEALTH, as the Letter of St James - a standard Catholic retort to Protestant "only faith" argument - commands (James 2:14-19):

    14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

    18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”

    Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.
     

    You have to be careful not to contravene the verse 16, by twisting it for example in this way

    “Go in peace, sinner; now work, and keep warm and well fed”

    St James does not connect basic needs with working/not working status, so it must be concluded that the basic level of charity is COMMANDED WITHOUT CAVEATS. That is so since all Earth ultimately belongs to God, which means your wealth too ultimately belongs to him. The expression of God's sovereignty over your wealth is the Book of Job.

    Your problem is that there is really nothing in Scripture which connects the poor and sin. The predestination theory got around that with the concept of "visible God's grace" aka wealth. But your argument only partly relies on the concept of faith - you try empirically connect sin and the poor, but that is not scriptural - even if true in the specific reality of capitalist America: this is what I would call naturalization of religion.

    Replies: @Another Polish Perspective, @Barbarossa, @AP

    , @Mikel
    @AP


    They misunderstand it when they don’t read the entire passage, and as a result get a false meaning based on a snippet. Here is the full one:
     
    Thank you for providing a larger part of the passage (albeit not the full one). But unfortunately I don't see how the sentence you have highlighted contradicts the clear meaning of the previous one.

    There is no logical connection between the sentence “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible” and rich people being able to enter the Kingdom of God after he had already declared that this was more difficult than for a camel to go through the eye of a needle (arguably the largest animal and the smallest hole known to Jesus' contemporaries).

    The sentence you have highlighted is just the standard proclamation of God's omnipotence in the Abrahamic religions but the earlier sentence recalled by Matthew, who is supposed to be a direct witness of the conversation, is a specific statement about who will be able to enter the Kingdom of that omnipotent God and how extremely difficult it will be for those who don't renounce their riches.

    In fact, if one is to doubt what Jesus really meant with what Matthew put in his mouth (and let's not forget, the Church decided to validate as his real words), it is more helpful to read the part of the passage before those words:

    16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

    17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

    18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,

    19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

    20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?

    21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

    22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.

    23 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.

    24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
     
    https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2019&version=KJV

    In other words, even virtuous people who had committed no sin would not be worthy of entering Heaven, according to Jesus, if they didn't abandon their wealth and embrace poverty. If anything, the full context of the passage strengthens rather than weakens Jesus' threat to rich people. Not that I sympathize with everything HMS has been saying but Matthew 19 looks like a total vindication of his ideal of poverty. It's little wonder that early Christians who read these passages and tried to follow them led lives of renunciation to earthly concerns.

    This full passage, by the way, is depicted in the Hollywood epic film The Greatest Story Ever Told. When I watched this part of the movie not long ago I remember feeling the same uneasiness as in my childhood. This virtuous man who went to Jesus asking for spiritual advice only received a terrible threat because he was unwilling to abandon his family and comfortable life.

    That Church officials have later tried to embellish or distort a passage that everybody is able to understand with no difficulty does not impress me much, to be honest. They did the same with cardinal commandments when they supported wars, crusades, plunder and immoral regimes.

    Replies: @AP

  124. @Sher Singh
    @Ivashka the fool

    You're an atheist because you have no consistent theos.

    I'm calling you a monkey running around blind.

    One does not engage in idol worship & claim to speak for the Abrahamics.

    Your misappropriation or claimed affiliations with our Dharma while being a malesh (cow killer) is similar.

    Have been very straightforward in telling you the issue why it's an issue, and the solution to resolve the conflict.

    --
    As it is still unclear then genocide is the only solution as you & w/e you represent or come from are unfit for human habitation.

    ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫਤਿਹ

    Replies: @Ivashka the fool, @Barbarossa

    You’re an atheist because you have no consistent theos.

    The strongest impression that I’ve had is that your religious expression is mostly concentrated on a sort of Neitzschean “will to power” ethos. Plenty of irreligious people adopt that, so I would be curious how your expression of it is a consistent theos. How do you distinguish your own material lusts from religious conviction? Self deception is, after all, a skill that we as humans excel at.

  125. @AP
    @RSDB


    "He followed the letter of the law, yet he did not carry love in his heart."

    Yes, and would your statistics have counted him as sinful or not?
     
    We can not measure what is in people's hearts but we can infer it by statistics that measure things such as committing acts of violence such as assault or rape, or engaging in debasement such as drug abuse.

    And on these measures the poor (in general) do poorly compared to the rich. In Jesus time it was not the case.

    Nobody is saying that the bag lady you pass on the street is necessarily very much like Mary in the story above. However, I am inviting you to reflect that you and I are not necessarily better people than her given our various paths in life, and that the distance between any of us looks incredibly small when compared to the distance between all of us and that perfection to which we are called by Christ.

     

    I agree completely. The bag lady is probably mentally ill. I explicitly stated that a minority of poor are poor for no reason of their own at all.

    As for the rest - I describe, but do not judge. They should be, not idolized or praised as some kind of rebel against a bad capitalist order and allowed to further harm themselves (what a disgusting way to use human beings and their suffering) - but helped. And certainly not allowed to debase themselves and harm others.

    Replies: @RSDB, @Barbarossa

    We can not measure what is in people’s hearts but we can infer it by statistics

    What would you have inferred about the young man, the Pharisee, and the publican respectively?

    I describe, but do not judge.

    What is inferring what is in someone’s heart?

    I agree completely.

    Yes, I think that we disagree mainly on words.

    [MORE]

    My main problem is with the idea of the quantification of sin. For instance: you discussed earlier the way the system in California encourages delinquency and officials profit from that. Taking that on its face, as I have no reason not to, are not the people involved in creating and running that system, who lead comfortable lives and probably do not often shiv anybody themselves, taking an advantage which almost certainly involves sin or, to be a bit more precise, at the very least material cooperation in sin on their part? And would that culpability not be magnified by the responsibility of their position*?

    Of the four “sins which cry to heaven for vengeance”, two cannot be committed by the destitute at all, and one of the remaining two is likely no more common among them than among their social superiors.

    *You will perhaps accuse me of judging them and the irony has not escaped me. However, we are considering here only a specific aspect, not the entire state of their souls. I think this is where the confusion comes in when discussing “judging” and I may be reacting to a mistaken reading of your meaning.

    • Replies: @AP
    @RSDB

    @Barbarossa:


    AP gives the overwhelming impression to me that he regards poor people as primarily social problems
     
    Sins are often social problems and ameliorating them also helps people who commit them (and also their victims).

    What would you have inferred about the young man, the Pharisee, and the publican respectively?
     
    In Biblical times the rich came by their wealth usually through evil means or inherited their wealth from those who did. So one would infer accordingly. *

    Fortunately we live in a society that has been Christian for many centuries, and circumstances are quite different.

    "I describe, but do not judge."

    What is inferring what is in someone’s heart?
     
    An inference, not a judgment.

    I suppose "judgment" can mean different things. Clearly judgment in the sense of saying - "this is a sin" or "this person is lazy" or "this person has sinful intent" is not sinful, because the same Churchmen who condemn judging also identify people as such.

    But judgment in terms of condemning and rejecting people who engage in sin is clearly sinful. It seems clear that this is the type of judgment that is wrong.

    My main problem is with the idea of the quantification of sin. For instance: you discussed earlier the way the system in California encourages delinquency and officials profit from that. Taking that on its face, as I have no reason not to, are not the people involved in creating and running that system, who lead comfortable lives and probably do not often shiv anybody themselves, taking an advantage which almost certainly involves sin or, to be a bit more precise, at the very least material cooperation in sin on their part? And would that culpability not be magnified by the responsibility of their position?
     
    An excellent point. But such policymakers are far fewer in number among the non-poor than those who engage in theft, violence, drug abuse, etc. are among the poor. Moreover, some of them (and probably most of their voters) are well-meaning and think they are helping in some way, so their harmful behavior isn't deliberate, there isn't intent. This makes it different from taking a purse from someone or lying while begging that the money will be used for food when it will be used for a bag of heroin instead.

    You will perhaps accuse me of judging them and the irony has not escaped me
     
    I do not, because describing something is not judging (see previously).



    * in order to understand the severe tone in which the Fathers sometimes speak of riches and of its obligations, we must bear in mind that the social world in which they lived was greatly different from our own. The wonderful industrial developments that have taken place in modern times have led to an enormous production of wealth, the possession of which by private individuals rests on honorable titles. In the days of the Roman Empire, the acquisition of wealth was but too frequently secured by the spoliation of conquered lands, by extortionate tax collecting, by excessive usury, by the exploiting of defenseless widows and orphans, and by other dubious means. The result was that, in the popular mind, a certain stigma attached to the possession of great wealth. It was a popular saying, “the rich man is either an unjust man or the heir of one (dives iniquus aut iniqui heres).”
  126. @AP
    @Mikel


    You just showed some crude correlation between sinful acts and poverty but the causality is uncertain. People living in poverty are more likely to engage in some antisocial behaviors out of necessity, eg a destitute person is of course more much likely to feel the need to steal than a wealthy individual leading a comfortable life.
     
    Read Murray's Coming Apart. The poor live more sinful lives than the middle and upper classes. Not just the desperate poor. And in the USA few people can be considered to be desperately poor, on the edge of starvation, etc.

    "It would be easy to misunderstand Jesus here and to assume that it’s impossible for a rich person to get into heaven."

    How can anyone misunderstand this?

    “I’ll say it again-it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the Kingdom of God!” Matthew 19:24
     

    They misunderstand it when they don't read the entire passage, and as a result get a false meaning based on a snippet. Here is the full one:

    "And Jesus said to his disciples, “Truly, I say to you, only with difficulty will a rich person enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God.” When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished, saying, “Who then can be saved?” But Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

    Nor do they consider it together with other passages (see my other post).

    This is why it is foolish to pick individual quotes to try to prove something, instead of following the teachings of the Church. The Church teaches that wealth is not as important as faith and use of that wealth in accordance with faith. St. Clement in the 2nd century wrote that possessi0n are not in themselves good or evil but it depends how they are used and it is sinful to allow oneself to be controlled by them or be obsessed by the need for their acquisition. But there is nothing wrong with being rich as long as one uses his wealth well and is not too attached to it.

    When the priest reads Mathew 19:24 he reads it all and explains it in that way.

    Replies: @HeavilyMarbledSteak, @Mr. Hack, @Another Polish Perspective, @Mikel

    Indeed, with God all things are possible – since I believe in universal salvation with no one being eternally damned, (which somehow I’m quite sure you don’t 🙂 ) even the wicked and wealthy will eventually be brought by God into heaven.

    Of course, in the meantime a lot of self-inflicted pain will have to be endured as the wealthy and ambitious psychologically and spiritually distance themselves from God and refuse to realize the true ends of human life as God intended and succumb to the mania for merely securing existence, and that’s not nothing, even if it all ends well.

    But at some point, AP, you’ll be alright, even if now you suffer 🙂

  127. @LatW
    @HeavilyMarbledSteak


    I do think real love exists, although I don’t think it necessarily has to express itself in marriage or children. Marriage is a social institution, after all, although love is more likely to express itself in children.
     
    Of course, love exists outside of marriage in many forms, but you said marriage is only either about "convenience", "satisfaction" or "following norms". To which I responded that marriage can also be "for love", but that's not the only place where love can exist, obviously. Whereas you tried to argue that all reasons for marriage or LTRs is something rather base or even primitive, thus devaluing it, so I felt the need to make an argument in favor of "romantic marriage". Marriage is above all a safe place for children, which I wouldn't say is a "selfish" goal either, as you seem to insinuate about social institutions in general.

    Btw, in traditional societies, marriage was not merely a "social institution", it was actually a religious, sanctified union. Including in pagan societies.


    The more I discuss this issue, the more my thoughts are beginning to coalesce around the issue of “contemplation” as one of the major ends of human life, and related to that, the issue of “leisure” as a legitimate goal in its own right, as the Greeks understood it.
     
    Now you are sounding as if you just want everyone to know that you're "leaving" this limited and narrow world or morality or something. As we agreed on the other thread, there is plentiful bounty in the wild, surely, one can sustain oneself "hunting and gathering" and then spend what's left of one's days in deep contemplation and leisure (good luck!). Is there anything or anyone that is holding you back from that? As I said, feel free! Off you go! Enjoy! I will even envy you a little.

    but I want to put forward the bold notion that contemplation and leisure are ultimately the highest kind of life there is – or at the very least, at least equal to the life of action.
     
    Why do you keep placing "contemplation" and "leisure" together as if they are one or even close in meaning, when in most traditions contemplation is considered work and training of the mind? Of course, one might need a kind of a "leisurely" setting for that, but those are not the same things or even related. Think of the classic statute "The Thinker" - does that look like leisure to you? :)

    modernity is intensely nihilistic, and the nihilism of modern times seems to me a huge problem that needs to be overcome. I’m getting the sense you don’t see this issue as acutely as I do.
     
    I understand what you are saying very well. Maybe I do not fear this nihilism as much as you do. Maybe I have internalized it more and know how to handle it.

    You seem to hesitate to agree with me that modern life is characterized by materialism, but nothing seems plainer to me.
     
    I simply do not believe that a human being is a slave to society. It is in our nature to constantly reflect, so are aware of this and can act. You seem to talk about it almost as if "there is no way out". As if we are slaves to this system. When in fact so many people have bailed what you call "the rat race". Certainly, I wouldn't say there is a shortage of people these days who have chosen to take on as little responsibility as possible so as to insulate themselves from any kind of burdensome relationships or obligations or risk of painful experiences (or to engage only in the very minimum in the safest possible way, or what's worse, only take from others but refuse to give - thankfully, that usually doesn't go very far).

    It doesn't mean I have not felt the pain of this materialism, that you allude to, can cause (in EE we felt great pain because of this), maybe I am jus stronger than you and do not fear it as much or let if affect me as much. Since I have a way out through my religion anyway, I can always cushion myself in the ancestral embrace.

    Besides, all earthly beings are somehow tied to the material. In my ancestral worldview, the material is tied to the aesthetic aspects of human life without which life would be empty and to the chthonic forces of the Earth that nourishes us.

    Even those Japanese temples, no matter how discreet and ascetic, in a way have a "materialistic" dimension that tie the aesthetic to the spiritual. This is necessary to welcome those who seek spiritual nourishment.

    And, of course, this doesn't mean I accept or agree with everything about how the Western economic system is structured, or with needlessly excessive materialistic lifestyles. But why should I deny enjoyment of the material? A responsible human being must know how to control these things in their life as to not engage in harmful things or cause harm to others.


    Here is from a discussion of Aristotle on leisure
     
    In his book, Aristotle attempts to address most aspects of human life, in a practical way. Thus, he will touch upon leisure as well but it doesn't constitute the bulk of his teachings, nor does he zero in on it and it is definitely not something he "prizes above all else". So it is questionable whether "Greeks prized leisure above all", as you said in the previous thread, to which I responded: "The Greeks prized arete the most". I will not impose this opinion, since there are several Greek schools and I don't want to impose my surely limited perception and understanding.

    It is, of course, true that they prized "contemplation". As I mentioned before, the highest goal is eudaimonia (happiness or sublime welbeing). Aristotle's ethics are character ethics so the biggest focus is on practical things such as arete (striving for excellence) and practical wisdom (phronesis). The latter in particular requires "work".

    But we can look at other Greek schools and we'll find other things that may match your outlook better, maybe Epicurus (who, by the way, is not to be taken literally)?

    Anywa, I don't want to impose my worldview, I like to keep an open mind. I hope I do not come off as too categorical or judgy.

    Replies: @HeavilyMarbledSteak

    Fair enough, I didn’t mean to imply marriage cannot be about love, of course it can, just that the formal structure of marriage is primarily a social institution, and to be honest, I’d include investing it with a sacral character as you describe traditional societies to have done.

    Although to be fair, I’d say investing it with a sacral character is an attempt to give it an extra-social dimension, but even so it remains a mixed institution at best.

    There’s a reason literally every single spiritual tradition does not consider marriage the highest form of life – certainly not Christianity.

    Please don’t get me wrong, this isn’t to condemn marriage or deny it can have attractive features, or that it can be done in a better or worse way, but the modern elevation of marriage as primary seems obviously connected to the advent of nihilism, as is the modern elevation of work.

    Now you are sounding as if you just want everyone to know that you’re “leaving” this limited and narrow world or morality or something. As we agreed on the other thread, there is plentiful bounty in the wild, surely, one can sustain oneself “hunting and gathering” and then spend what’s left of one’s days in deep contemplation and leisure (good luck!). Is there anything or anyone that is holding you back from that? As I said, feel free! Off you go! Enjoy! I will even envy you a little.

    Now you’re being facetious 🙂

    Surely you realize society employs a variety of means to make this extremely difficult for all but the most determined and eccentric, from immense social pressure to the organization of the economy to the monopolization of land ownership, especially fertile and arable land.

    But more than that, you’re wrong that I simply want to “abandon society” like some misanthrope – I wouldn’t be posting here if I did 🙂

    One of the key insights is that everything is interconnected, all of us are. I personally feel a vocation to a sort of “mixed” spiritual life – I spend large amounts of time in solitude in nature, and travelling, but I also want to introduce the spirit of that back into society, as I think recovering this dimension is of vital importance to the rest of mankind in their struggle with modern nihilism, and crucially and centrally, I want to give courage and example to all those lost souls who succumb to the social pressure of anti-spiritual people like AP and sink into the socially approved life of quiet desperation that results when one abandons the true ends of human life out of a misguided mania for securing the mere means of existence.

    So – you’re not getting rid of me that easily 🙂

    Why do you keep placing “contemplation” and “leisure” together as if they are one or even close in meaning, when in most traditions contemplation is considered work and training of the mind? Of course, one might need a kind of a “leisurely” setting for that, but those are not the same things or even related. Think of the classic statute “The Thinker” – does that look like leisure to you? 🙂

    Yes, I didn’t say “thought” – in contemplation you do not engage in strenuous thought trying to figure out problems 🙂

    It is precisely an emptying the mind of pesky thoughts and an abandonment of the need to figure things out 🙂

    Certainly, this too is a kind of “effort”, but of a very peculiar kind that is a kind of determined anti-effort, as I explained to AP.

    Well, according to the distinction between leisure and work suggested by Aristotle above, which I adopted, leisure is a state where you focus on activities and things you do for their own intrinsic sake, not for some other end, like securing the means to existence.

    Contemplation – an emptying the mind of thought and the attempt to figure things out (capture reality in a net of conceptual categories) – so that one can come into the stark presence of God, the numinous, and the mysterious, and realize ones true nature, is clearly done for it’s own sake, so it’s clearly a leisure activity and not work.

    Insofar as contemplation involves the willed suspension of effort (which is itself a form of effort 🙂 ), it bears similarities to leisure in the sense of inactivity, as well.

    I understand what you are saying very well. Maybe I do not fear this nihilism as much as you do. Maybe I have internalized it more and know how to handle it

    .

    I would like very much to believe you – in fact, this sounds very Nietzschean 🙂 Nietzsche thought the modern task was to simply “will” oneself out of nihilism.

    But I don’t believe this post-modern task can be done, because I believe in an objective structure to reality, and nihilism isn’t some contingent fact but a necessary result of our relationship to the world.

    But more importantly, I believe you and AP, being from Eastern Europe, are merely a few decades behind us in the West – I don’t think you’ve “mastered” nihilism, you’re just breathing the last fumes of meaning that have not yet fully vanished from your culture. Yours and APs attitude are an exact replica of the attitude in the West right before full blown nihilism exploded onto the scene. It’s the penultimate stage of this disease.

    Certainly, I wouldn’t say there is a shortage of people these days who have chosen to take on as little responsibility as possible so as to insulate themselves from any kind of burdensome relationships or obligations or risk of painful experiences (or to engage only in the very minimum in the safest possible way, or what’s worse, only take from others but refuse to give – thankfully, that usually doesn’t go very far).

    Yes, there is a growing movement – and some of the homeless too 🙂

    But the psychological and spiritual architecture does not yet exist to direct these impulses in the right direction, and these actions are taken against immense social pressure and economic and structural difficulty.

    I’m trying to help build the social and psychological architecture to facilitate such choices 🙂

    People drop out today, but society does not appreciate the spiritual significance of this – and that’s a big problem, both fir society’s understanding of the true ends of life, and for the drop outs themselves.

    Besides, all earthly beings are somehow tied to the material. In my ancestral worldview, the material is tied to the aesthetic aspects of human life without which life would be empty and to the chthonic forces of the Earth that nourishes us.

    Definitely. What I am criticizing is a preoccupation with the material on its own, without that extra spiritual dimension.

    Alan Watts used to say that we call ourselves materialists but it seems to him that we positively hate and despise matter because we make it so ugly and treat it so shabbily.

    Obviously, a beautiful building is spirit expressed through the medium of material – and perhaps that might be the true love of materialism 🙂

    And I am certainly not against the proper enjoyment of material things either – I am opposing the idea that the primary activity of human life ought to be securing the means to physical survival, as modern bourgeois society would have it, rather than focusing on things that have intrinsic meaning – what might be called the spiritual dimension.

    In his book, Aristotle attempts to address most aspects of human life, in a practical way. Thus, he will touch upon leisure as well but it doesn’t constitute the bulk of his teachings, nor does he zero in on it and it is definitely not something he “prizes above all else”. So it is questionable whether “Greeks prized leisure above all”, as you said in the previous thread, to which I responded: “The Greeks prized arete the most”. I will not impose this opinion, since there are several Greek schools and I don’t want to impose my surely limited perception and understanding.

    Ok, now you’re just pulling an AP and denying what’s plainly in sight 🙂

    Aristotle plainly says that leisure is the highest form of life towards which all our other activities are directed.

    We work – secure the means to survive materially – in order to enjoy things we do for their own sake with no ulterior motive, which are leisure activities.

    Of course, he recognized excellence in other areas of life as well, the political realm, war, and craftsmanship, which I’d certainly agree with, but he held out the highest honors for leisure.

    I’d like to restore that 🙂

  128. Onward and forward to other matters –

    I read a very enjoyable book recently, called The Wilder Shores of Love by Lesley Blanch, apparently a noted English “feminist” and bohemian of the early 20th century.

    It details the lives of several remarkable, highly intelligent, and strong-willed European women who found adventure, love, and spiritual revitalization in the Muslim Near East of the 19th century.

    Even though Lesley is described as a feminist, I put it in quotation marks because her feminism is a far cry from the kind of bitter anti-male resentment and hatred of genuine femininity that the feminist movement has declined into recently.

    Leslie, and the women she describes, all clearly loved men and genuine, benevolent masculinity (not the kind of toxic macho posturing that represents an equivalent decline in the male sphere and is a feature of modern nihilism).

    All the men here, Western and Eastern, are strong and capable, but gentle, kind, honorable, respectful of women, and noble. The women are “feminist” heros because they did not live conventional lives, but were remarkably bold and took to a life of adventure in unstable and primitive parts of the world, and acquitted themselves with verve and finesse in dangerous situations.

    The first chapter focuses on Isabella Burton, the wife of Sir Captain Richard Burton, the great Victorian explorer, adventurer, writer, and translator – Burton is a figure of perennial fascination to me, and I was enthralled by his account of his journey to Mecca disguised as a Muslim.

    Photographs reveal Richard Burton to have one of the most striking and fascinating faces of any human being we have records of.

    Later chapters detail liasons with Arab chieftans – one of the great beauties of her time, Jane Digby, later in life married an Arab chief and lived in nomadic encampments and had all sorts of fascinating adventures in the desert, and was a regular visitor to the Burtons when he was British consul in Damascus. Her Arab chieftain husband was a benevolent and chivalrous man who treated her with respect and reverence, and Digby was loved by her adopted tribe – her husband was part of the old honorable Arab culture that was rapidly vanishing even then (a fact noted sadly by Digby and Burton), and today is replaced by a sullen and resentful Arab world. For her part, Digby was quite pleased to treat her husband with the outward forms of submissiveness and respect demanded by Oriental custom of the time – even while being quite bold and independent. It seems to have been an amicable match that made them both happy.

    Another fascinating figure is Isabelle Eberhardt, a Russian-Swiss woman who disguised herself as a man and wandered the North African desert, exploring it’s remote reaches and dusty, ruined towns, becoming a trusted confidant and valued conversationalist of several high-ranking French colonial officials, and forming a long-lasting bond of affection with a Touareg.

    Eberhardt was also something of a mystic and a spiritual seeker, and wrote a fascinating Desert Diary full of arresting sketches of desert life and her own musings on the spiritual dimension of the desert – well worth reading in it’s own right.

    Perhaps my least favorite chapter – although that’s just because I always prefer reading about adventures in the desert 🙂 – was about a French woman who was captured by pirates and sold into the harem of the Ottoman court, where she rose to a position of prominence and influence, which she wielded in several critical moments to the advantage of her native France.

    I realize this is an alt-right site (but is it really?), and some here may find tales of European women liasing with Muslims and Arabs distasteful, but it’s important to remember this was a time of total European dominance of the region and with non of the sordid issues surrounding Muslim immigration into Europe today – and these women did so on their own terms and without engaging in any forms of self-abasement or loss of self-respect, and the Arabs and Muslims for their part behaved with benevolence and nobility. It would be wrongheaded to see those distant times through the lens of modern race relations.

    I shall leave off with this beautiful quote from the introduction, calculated to infuriate the APs of the world –

    Perhaps, too, this very passivity offered something which was vanishing from the West, something to which they were all subconsciously drawn. Repose : the Eastern climate of contemplation, of Kif, of nothingness, brought to its quintessential state of voluptuous, animal stillness was a state wholly alien to the West. Even leisure, an entirely different thing, was vanishing. From afar, a mighty whirring could be heard approaching: it was the roar and clatter of a million mechanical devices gaining momentum, forming an overwhelming uproar of ingenuity and efficiency: speed and action for their own sake. This onslaught was to hammer at Western mankind until there were nerves, but no senses left.

    Kif, contemplation, gilded opium pills and the drowsy peace of senses lulled by satiety … these things the East still offered, and some, if not all of my subjects, were, I believe, aware of this. In the East, there was still ‘world enough and time’ to be women .

    • Replies: @Ivashka the fool
    @HeavilyMarbledSteak


    From afar, a mighty whirring could be heard approaching: it was the roar and clatter of a million mechanical devices gaining momentum, forming an overwhelming uproar of ingenuity and efficiency: speed and action for their own sake.
     


    https://youtu.be/B8r7iF39fx4

    Many of the current world pathologies are due to the humans leaving their assigned part of Creation and joining the Machine. The Technosphere rising will upend and transform human nature. The Technosphere advent is interlinked with the lust for profit that is characteristic of Capitalism. At the time that is describing in the book you referred to, the East did not yet go through the birth pains of Renaissance, the teenage years of the pre-industrial age and the early adulthood of the Belle Époque industrial (so-called Moderne) society. The East was still a Civilization of normal, non-transformed human beings.

    The West embraced Capitalism, built the Machine which evolved into the Technosphere, had two great industrial wars and nearly ended up having the third and final one. That is a lot of (vain ?) effort and sacrifice. That is why the West and those who joined into its system are today tired, demoralized and unfit for childbirth.

    We will still go through a lot of suffering. But one day either we will transcend the Machine, or the Technosphere will transcend us. For humankind as a species, there appears to be no middle ground.

    Replies: @Barbarossa, @HeavilyMarbledSteak

    , @RSDB
    @HeavilyMarbledSteak

    Not long ago I read Far to Seek by British novelist Maud Diver. She is very enthusiastic about the old culture of India and is often quoting Rabindranath Tagore.

    But when she comes to the famous Amritsar Massacre she describes the whole thing by basically saying "Strong measures were taken", despite what Tagore felt about it. It is as if she loves the old India so much she is actually offended by the possibility of a new India which will take on some Western culture in order to free itself from Western rule.


    I shall leave off with this beautiful quote from the introduction, calculated to infuriate the APs of the world –


     

    There's something of a (faint) parallel here with Christianity, surely, and a difference from leisure as commonly interpreted?

    In leisure as commonly interpreted, your time is your own. But in this case, the woman's time belongs ultimately to her husband, and in Christianity it belongs to God.

    (@ other comment)

    Also, with regard to viewing someone as likely especially unspiritual due to a few blog posts, I can't for the life of me see that it is all that different from viewing someone as likely especially sinful due to belonging to a lower social stratum.

    For instance, if for some unintelligible reason I wanted to produce an estimate of Mikel's spirituality, and I did this from some of his religion posts, I would probably rate him as quite unspiritual. But if I then read some of his nature posts, I would get a completely different picture. And even all these posts taken together represent only a small portion of the reality.

    NB. Since it's been brought up, if anyone here is interested in the sociological or anthropological view of drug addiction, he could do worse than to check out Merrill Singer, particularly Drugging the Poor and The Social Value of Drug Addicts: Uses of the Useless. He has, of course, a relevant political bias, but everyone has one on this topic.

    Replies: @HeavilyMarbledSteak

  129. A mint take down including the comments section –

    • Replies: @Wokechoke
    @Mikhail

    I don't mind that she's a hypocrite but she appears to be a blithering moron/giggling idiot. Greta "I own 100 private jets" Thunberg.
    Metzger was right about the Eurocops doing arrests softly. After the Rhodes Statue protest in Oxford a pack of coons started to breakdance and surrounded a couple of cops demanding they kneel. The cops counter break danced and kneeled like good PR flacks.

    Replies: @Greasy William

  130. @AP
    @Mikel


    You just showed some crude correlation between sinful acts and poverty but the causality is uncertain. People living in poverty are more likely to engage in some antisocial behaviors out of necessity, eg a destitute person is of course more much likely to feel the need to steal than a wealthy individual leading a comfortable life.
     
    Read Murray's Coming Apart. The poor live more sinful lives than the middle and upper classes. Not just the desperate poor. And in the USA few people can be considered to be desperately poor, on the edge of starvation, etc.

    "It would be easy to misunderstand Jesus here and to assume that it’s impossible for a rich person to get into heaven."

    How can anyone misunderstand this?

    “I’ll say it again-it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the Kingdom of God!” Matthew 19:24
     

    They misunderstand it when they don't read the entire passage, and as a result get a false meaning based on a snippet. Here is the full one:

    "And Jesus said to his disciples, “Truly, I say to you, only with difficulty will a rich person enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God.” When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished, saying, “Who then can be saved?” But Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

    Nor do they consider it together with other passages (see my other post).

    This is why it is foolish to pick individual quotes to try to prove something, instead of following the teachings of the Church. The Church teaches that wealth is not as important as faith and use of that wealth in accordance with faith. St. Clement in the 2nd century wrote that possessi0n are not in themselves good or evil but it depends how they are used and it is sinful to allow oneself to be controlled by them or be obsessed by the need for their acquisition. But there is nothing wrong with being rich as long as one uses his wealth well and is not too attached to it.

    When the priest reads Mathew 19:24 he reads it all and explains it in that way.

    Replies: @HeavilyMarbledSteak, @Mr. Hack, @Another Polish Perspective, @Mikel

    Although I’m in basic accordance with your view here, one still has to take Jesus at his word, that:

    “Truly, I say to you, only with difficulty will a rich person enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God.”

    In other words, only those that completely submit themselves to the will of God will be ultimately saved. It appears that the pleasures afforded by riches will lure many into a life that is not firstly God centered, as I think Aaron has been trying to emphasize. But as you correctly point out, there is a way out of this morass, because:

    “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

    So the most important tools in ones journey to salvation are a repentant heart and a belief in a merciful God.

    • Replies: @AP
    @Mr. Hack

    You are absolutely correct. It’s very nice to see that the only devout Orthodox Christian here agrees with me as I argue with apostates and atheists about a faith they have chosen to abandon or to oppose. Thanks for the nice confirmation that I am on the right track.

    Replies: @Ivashka the fool, @Mr. Hack

  131. @Barbarossa
    @Ivashka the fool

    That all makes sense to me. As a practical matter it would seem to me that the best policy would to attempt to bring the immune system into a better state of self regulation. Previously I was thinking more in terms of boosting immune system activity but now I'm leaning more toward regulation and support.

    I would guess that herbs and foods with natural antibiotic and antiviral properties would be helpful since they would take some pressure off an over stimulated immune system. Strangely enough though, I always had extremely good results from drinking an extremely strong fresh ginger tea to kick a cold. Since the Covid era, it doesn't seem to have the same effect. I'll have to do more reading and experimentation to see if I can find any combinations which make a noticeable difference.

    Replies: @Ivashka the fool, @Emil Nikola Richard

    Perhaps you might want to look into the flavonoids.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5465813/

    You can buy concentrated preparations.

    I also use ginger tea with honey and lemon when I have minor colds.

  132. @AP
    @Mikel


    You just showed some crude correlation between sinful acts and poverty but the causality is uncertain. People living in poverty are more likely to engage in some antisocial behaviors out of necessity, eg a destitute person is of course more much likely to feel the need to steal than a wealthy individual leading a comfortable life.
     
    Read Murray's Coming Apart. The poor live more sinful lives than the middle and upper classes. Not just the desperate poor. And in the USA few people can be considered to be desperately poor, on the edge of starvation, etc.

    "It would be easy to misunderstand Jesus here and to assume that it’s impossible for a rich person to get into heaven."

    How can anyone misunderstand this?

    “I’ll say it again-it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the Kingdom of God!” Matthew 19:24
     

    They misunderstand it when they don't read the entire passage, and as a result get a false meaning based on a snippet. Here is the full one:

    "And Jesus said to his disciples, “Truly, I say to you, only with difficulty will a rich person enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God.” When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished, saying, “Who then can be saved?” But Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

    Nor do they consider it together with other passages (see my other post).

    This is why it is foolish to pick individual quotes to try to prove something, instead of following the teachings of the Church. The Church teaches that wealth is not as important as faith and use of that wealth in accordance with faith. St. Clement in the 2nd century wrote that possessi0n are not in themselves good or evil but it depends how they are used and it is sinful to allow oneself to be controlled by them or be obsessed by the need for their acquisition. But there is nothing wrong with being rich as long as one uses his wealth well and is not too attached to it.

    When the priest reads Mathew 19:24 he reads it all and explains it in that way.

    Replies: @HeavilyMarbledSteak, @Mr. Hack, @Another Polish Perspective, @Mikel

    AP, are you a Protestant or do you come from Protestant milieu?

    Your focus on “poor living more sinful lives” etc – whether you want or not – to some extent elevates wealth/material status to a proxy for moral/ethical status. That has reminded me about Calvin predestination theory, a theory which says that God has already chosen and this choice is expressed through his grace for the blessed, and lack of it for the damned. For some reason, it was further interpreted as the wealth being the sign of the grace of God, or of being chosen.

    The Church teaches that wealth is not as important as faith and use of that wealth in accordance with faith.

    This sounds very Protestant to me.
    Non-Protestant Churches do not teach that, as they stress that deeds are as important as faith is, and MORE IMPORTANT THAN WEALTH, as the Letter of St James – a standard Catholic retort to Protestant “only faith” argument – commands (James 2:14-19):

    14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

    18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”

    Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

    You have to be careful not to contravene the verse 16, by twisting it for example in this way

    “Go in peace, sinner; now work, and keep warm and well fed”

    St James does not connect basic needs with working/not working status, so it must be concluded that the basic level of charity is COMMANDED WITHOUT CAVEATS. That is so since all Earth ultimately belongs to God, which means your wealth too ultimately belongs to him. The expression of God’s sovereignty over your wealth is the Book of Job.

    Your problem is that there is really nothing in Scripture which connects the poor and sin. The predestination theory got around that with the concept of “visible God’s grace” aka wealth. But your argument only partly relies on the concept of faith – you try empirically connect sin and the poor, but that is not scriptural – even if true in the specific reality of capitalist America: this is what I would call naturalization of religion.

    • Agree: Ivashka the fool
    • Replies: @Another Polish Perspective
    @Another Polish Perspective

    In this Calvinist perspective, you annoyance with HeavilyMarbledSteak would of course be justified, since he would refuse his predestination by refusing to claim his wealth by heavy work. It is like he would prefer to be a damned one...

    , @Barbarossa
    @Another Polish Perspective

    I'm inclined to suggest to both AP and AaronB the appropriate penance for their argument; each finding a homeless man and buying him a really good deli sandwich! Don't forget a bag of chips and a cup o' joe!

    , @AP
    @Another Polish Perspective


    “ The Church teaches that wealth is not as important as faith and use of that wealth in accordance with faith.”

    This sounds very Protestant to me.
     
    What it sounds like to you is irrelevant. I supported what I wrote by only using Catholic and Orthodox sources. And it was what I have heard in sermons at my local Greek Catholic church. Tbh I haven’t even read the Protestant literature on wealth and poverty. But using Biblical quotes out of context to support some point seems to be a very Protestant approach.

    Non-Protestant Churches do not teach that, as they stress that deeds are as important as faith is, and MORE IMPORTANT THAN WEALTH
     
    What do you think I meant when I wrote “use of that wealth in accordance with faith?”

    Your problem is that there is really nothing in Scripture which connects the poor and sin
     
    And why should it? In the pre-Christian world of Jesus’s time there indeed probably was no connection between the poor and sin.

    The predestination theory
     
    Nowhere did I imply agreement with predestination.

    To observe that the poor tend to sin a lot more than the non-poor in modern Western society is not to imply that the poor are predestined to sin. Indeed on numerous occasions I have stated that we must intervene to help them not to sin, to bring them into the light, and not allow them to wallow in their sins as AaronB would want.

    I have stated that Christianity has completely changed people and downstream of that, has fundamentally altered the nature of society. Our Christian (or immediately post-Christian) society takes Christian virtues for granted and supports them, makes it easier to follow them (indeed, makes it socially unacceptable not to). This is something to be celebrated. How fortunate we are to be living in a place where a Christian way of life does not result in persecution. Accordingly, working to undermine or overthrow this society as progressives often try to do, or celebrate its malcontents, is bad.

    This is not to say that we have achieved perfection; we are far from it. But the task of Christians in a Christian society with regards to that society (I am not addressing one’s personal works) is to further perfect it and to protect it, rather than to undermine or destroy it.

    Replies: @Another Polish Perspective

  133. @HeavilyMarbledSteak
    Onward and forward to other matters -

    I read a very enjoyable book recently, called The Wilder Shores of Love by Lesley Blanch, apparently a noted English "feminist" and bohemian of the early 20th century.

    It details the lives of several remarkable, highly intelligent, and strong-willed European women who found adventure, love, and spiritual revitalization in the Muslim Near East of the 19th century.

    Even though Lesley is described as a feminist, I put it in quotation marks because her feminism is a far cry from the kind of bitter anti-male resentment and hatred of genuine femininity that the feminist movement has declined into recently.

    Leslie, and the women she describes, all clearly loved men and genuine, benevolent masculinity (not the kind of toxic macho posturing that represents an equivalent decline in the male sphere and is a feature of modern nihilism).

    All the men here, Western and Eastern, are strong and capable, but gentle, kind, honorable, respectful of women, and noble. The women are "feminist" heros because they did not live conventional lives, but were remarkably bold and took to a life of adventure in unstable and primitive parts of the world, and acquitted themselves with verve and finesse in dangerous situations.

    The first chapter focuses on Isabella Burton, the wife of Sir Captain Richard Burton, the great Victorian explorer, adventurer, writer, and translator - Burton is a figure of perennial fascination to me, and I was enthralled by his account of his journey to Mecca disguised as a Muslim.

    Photographs reveal Richard Burton to have one of the most striking and fascinating faces of any human being we have records of.

    Later chapters detail liasons with Arab chieftans - one of the great beauties of her time, Jane Digby, later in life married an Arab chief and lived in nomadic encampments and had all sorts of fascinating adventures in the desert, and was a regular visitor to the Burtons when he was British consul in Damascus. Her Arab chieftain husband was a benevolent and chivalrous man who treated her with respect and reverence, and Digby was loved by her adopted tribe - her husband was part of the old honorable Arab culture that was rapidly vanishing even then (a fact noted sadly by Digby and Burton), and today is replaced by a sullen and resentful Arab world. For her part, Digby was quite pleased to treat her husband with the outward forms of submissiveness and respect demanded by Oriental custom of the time - even while being quite bold and independent. It seems to have been an amicable match that made them both happy.

    Another fascinating figure is Isabelle Eberhardt, a Russian-Swiss woman who disguised herself as a man and wandered the North African desert, exploring it's remote reaches and dusty, ruined towns, becoming a trusted confidant and valued conversationalist of several high-ranking French colonial officials, and forming a long-lasting bond of affection with a Touareg.

    Eberhardt was also something of a mystic and a spiritual seeker, and wrote a fascinating Desert Diary full of arresting sketches of desert life and her own musings on the spiritual dimension of the desert - well worth reading in it's own right.

    Perhaps my least favorite chapter - although that's just because I always prefer reading about adventures in the desert :) - was about a French woman who was captured by pirates and sold into the harem of the Ottoman court, where she rose to a position of prominence and influence, which she wielded in several critical moments to the advantage of her native France.

    I realize this is an alt-right site (but is it really?), and some here may find tales of European women liasing with Muslims and Arabs distasteful, but it's important to remember this was a time of total European dominance of the region and with non of the sordid issues surrounding Muslim immigration into Europe today - and these women did so on their own terms and without engaging in any forms of self-abasement or loss of self-respect, and the Arabs and Muslims for their part behaved with benevolence and nobility. It would be wrongheaded to see those distant times through the lens of modern race relations.

    I shall leave off with this beautiful quote from the introduction, calculated to infuriate the APs of the world -

    Perhaps, too, this very passivity offered something which was vanishing from the West, something to which they were all subconsciously drawn. Repose : the Eastern climate of contemplation, of Kif, of nothingness, brought to its quintessential state of voluptuous, animal stillness was a state wholly alien to the West. Even leisure, an entirely different thing, was vanishing. From afar, a mighty whirring could be heard approaching: it was the roar and clatter of a million mechanical devices gaining momentum, forming an overwhelming uproar of ingenuity and efficiency: speed and action for their own sake. This onslaught was to hammer at Western mankind until there were nerves, but no senses left.

    Kif, contemplation, gilded opium pills and the drowsy peace of senses lulled by satiety ... these things the East still offered, and some, if not all of my subjects, were, I believe, aware of this. In the East, there was still 'world enough and time' to be women .
     

    Replies: @Ivashka the fool, @RSDB

    From afar, a mighty whirring could be heard approaching: it was the roar and clatter of a million mechanical devices gaining momentum, forming an overwhelming uproar of ingenuity and efficiency: speed and action for their own sake.

    [MORE]

    Many of the current world pathologies are due to the humans leaving their assigned part of Creation and joining the Machine. The Technosphere rising will upend and transform human nature. The Technosphere advent is interlinked with the lust for profit that is characteristic of Capitalism. At the time that is describing in the book you referred to, the East did not yet go through the birth pains of Renaissance, the teenage years of the pre-industrial age and the early adulthood of the Belle Époque industrial (so-called Moderne) society. The East was still a Civilization of normal, non-transformed human beings.

    The West embraced Capitalism, built the Machine which evolved into the Technosphere, had two great industrial wars and nearly ended up having the third and final one. That is a lot of (vain ?) effort and sacrifice. That is why the West and those who joined into its system are today tired, demoralized and unfit for childbirth.

    We will still go through a lot of suffering. But one day either we will transcend the Machine, or the Technosphere will transcend us. For humankind as a species, there appears to be no middle ground.

    • Replies: @Barbarossa
    @Ivashka the fool

    I agree. I like to call it the Great Hamster Wheel of Capitalism. It spins furiously but gets nowhere. In fact, I'd say that the lack of direction and the hyperactivity are in a symbiotic relationship. The latter masks the former.

    Titties and sadism will keep the masses from having too many inconvenient questions bubble up in their minds!

    , @HeavilyMarbledSteak
    @Ivashka the fool

    Yeah, when the people in that book went to the ME it was a colorful and romantic place that hadn't yet been spoiled by modern industry and machines. That's all changed now of course.

    Personally, I worry less and less these days about the Machine. I don't think it has any staying power.

    The people who think like machines develop blind spots, because machine thinking is highly selective thinking that leaves out a lot of stuff - necessarily, by design - to focus on a narrow slice of reality. It also carries with it it's own cognitive biases that impair effectively engaging with reality and that will hasten it's demise.

    Anatoly Karlin is still blathering on these days about how the determining factor in war is material, because that's the faith of the machine. It boggles the mind, but there you have it. And the machine people were all sure Russia would easily win, because of course, size wins, in machine world.

    It's like everything - it has it's day, but it's on life support. China bet huge on the machine, and it basically went nowhere - no grand new transformations, nothing amazing came out of it. Just some lame social control with cameras that's now breaking down too.

    I think China was the machines last hope. The last huge reservoir of talent, but it went nowhere. A billion of the worlds (supposedly) smartest people, and nada.

    So these days, I'm not too worked about the machine. It's on its way out.

    Replies: @Ivashka the fool

  134. @Another Polish Perspective
    @AP

    AP, are you a Protestant or do you come from Protestant milieu?

    Your focus on "poor living more sinful lives" etc - whether you want or not - to some extent elevates wealth/material status to a proxy for moral/ethical status. That has reminded me about Calvin predestination theory, a theory which says that God has already chosen and this choice is expressed through his grace for the blessed, and lack of it for the damned. For some reason, it was further interpreted as the wealth being the sign of the grace of God, or of being chosen.


    The Church teaches that wealth is not as important as faith and use of that wealth in accordance with faith.
     
    This sounds very Protestant to me.
    Non-Protestant Churches do not teach that, as they stress that deeds are as important as faith is, and MORE IMPORTANT THAN WEALTH, as the Letter of St James - a standard Catholic retort to Protestant "only faith" argument - commands (James 2:14-19):

    14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

    18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”

    Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.
     

    You have to be careful not to contravene the verse 16, by twisting it for example in this way

    “Go in peace, sinner; now work, and keep warm and well fed”

    St James does not connect basic needs with working/not working status, so it must be concluded that the basic level of charity is COMMANDED WITHOUT CAVEATS. That is so since all Earth ultimately belongs to God, which means your wealth too ultimately belongs to him. The expression of God's sovereignty over your wealth is the Book of Job.

    Your problem is that there is really nothing in Scripture which connects the poor and sin. The predestination theory got around that with the concept of "visible God's grace" aka wealth. But your argument only partly relies on the concept of faith - you try empirically connect sin and the poor, but that is not scriptural - even if true in the specific reality of capitalist America: this is what I would call naturalization of religion.

    Replies: @Another Polish Perspective, @Barbarossa, @AP

    In this Calvinist perspective, you annoyance with HeavilyMarbledSteak would of course be justified, since he would refuse his predestination by refusing to claim his wealth by heavy work. It is like he would prefer to be a damned one…

  135. • Replies: @AP
    @Ivashka the fool

    I knew a guy in Moscow who worked as a liaison between the Russian government security services and the Russian Orthodox Church. He used to talk about drunken parties in the monasteries, with a stream of prostitutes being supplied to the monks.

    Note that I am describing, not judging :-)

    Replies: @Barbarossa, @Ivashka the fool

  136. @Mr. Hack
    @AP

    Although I'm in basic accordance with your view here, one still has to take Jesus at his word, that:


    “Truly, I say to you, only with difficulty will a rich person enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God.”
     
    In other words, only those that completely submit themselves to the will of God will be ultimately saved. It appears that the pleasures afforded by riches will lure many into a life that is not firstly God centered, as I think Aaron has been trying to emphasize. But as you correctly point out, there is a way out of this morass, because:

    “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”
     
    So the most important tools in ones journey to salvation are a repentant heart and a belief in a merciful God.

    Replies: @AP

    You are absolutely correct. It’s very nice to see that the only devout Orthodox Christian here agrees with me as I argue with apostates and atheists about a faith they have chosen to abandon or to oppose. Thanks for the nice confirmation that I am on the right track.

    • Replies: @Ivashka the fool
    @AP

    I believe you are right about Mr Hack being a good Orthodox Christian. However, morality and ethics are not the monopoly of a certain creed. It is part and parcel of the deep, true, human nature. It is simply the best we have to offer as a species.

    It is not the religion that makes people good or bad. It is the opposite: a good person makes their religion better, a bad person makes their religion* worse.

    And one last thing, God is not religion. God is the ground of being, the beginning and the end to it all. God is impossible to describe or circumscribe into a human belief system.

    *(Although it is not a religion, I include Atheism among belief systems because one has to believe that there's no God to be an Atheist. There are moral and ethical people among the Atheists too. Varlam Shalamov was one of these.)

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @A123, @Mikel

    , @Mr. Hack
    @AP

    I think that both you and Aaron possess some aspect of the whole truth as far as this matter goes. Aaron tends to emphasize those that go astray in their relationship with earthly goods, whereas you tend to see the few individuals who rely on God to guide them with the dispossession of their wealth to help humanity. Both viewpoints are accurate but don't reflect the whole truth, IMHO. There really doesn't need to be much controversy here?

  137. Is Glinski a Lithuanian aristocratic name? One of the patronymic of Ivan Grozny’s ancestors? The the article this dyke recommends killing grandma.

    • Replies: @Mikhail
    @Wokechoke


    Reggie Meezer
    @ReggieMeezer
    On Ukrainian social networks there are many videos of the forced mobilization that the Ukrainian policemen together with the officials of the recruiting offices are carrying out on the street,using military weapons, forcing citizens to become cannon fodder for the Zelensky regime

     



    https://twitter.com/ReggieMeezer/status/1617532592726622209
  138. @AP
    @Mr. Hack

    You are absolutely correct. It’s very nice to see that the only devout Orthodox Christian here agrees with me as I argue with apostates and atheists about a faith they have chosen to abandon or to oppose. Thanks for the nice confirmation that I am on the right track.

    Replies: @Ivashka the fool, @Mr. Hack

    I believe you are right about Mr Hack being a good Orthodox Christian. However, morality and ethics are not the monopoly of a certain creed. It is part and parcel of the deep, true, human nature. It is simply the best we have to offer as a species.

    It is not the religion that makes people good or bad. It is the opposite: a good person makes their religion better, a bad person makes their religion* worse.

    And one last thing, God is not religion. God is the ground of being, the beginning and the end to it all. God is impossible to describe or circumscribe into a human belief system.

    *(Although it is not a religion, I include Atheism among belief systems because one has to believe that there’s no God to be an Atheist. There are moral and ethical people among the Atheists too. Varlam Shalamov was one of these.)

    • Agree: Yahya, AnonfromTN
    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @Ivashka the fool

    Who's writing about "morality and ethics" here anyway, at least in a general sense? I was writing about "salvation" from the viewpoint of Christianity in a very specific sense. Of course, other religious systems do provide ethical and moral guideposts too, some even "salvation", but I chose to frame my comment within the Christian subject matter that AP and Aaron were discussing. In fact, Aaron had prefaced a lot of his recent commentary within the framework of recently reading a lot of material written by the Church Fathers.

    Replies: @Ivashka the fool

    , @A123
    @Ivashka the fool


    *(Although it is not a religion, I include Atheism among belief systems because one has to believe that there’s no God to be an Atheist.
     
    I concur.

    Atheists have faith that nothing is beyond.
    ___

    Is Wokeness a religion? A cult? Or, at least a belief system?

    It is driven by faith & dogma. Questioning the articles of "Woke Faith" is treated not unlike heresy and apostasy.

    The parallel is worth exploring.

    PEACE 😇
    , @Mikel
    @Ivashka the fool


    I include Atheism among belief systems because one has to believe that there’s no God to be an Atheist.
     
    I disagree. Absent any evidence or direct experience, the default assumption of the rational invidual is that there is no God. There is no particular belief system behind the belief that the Turtle Ninjas are fictional creatures. Unless one considers simple common sense to be a belief system, that is.

    Replies: @Ivashka the fool, @A123

  139. @AP
    @RSDB


    "He followed the letter of the law, yet he did not carry love in his heart."

    Yes, and would your statistics have counted him as sinful or not?
     
    We can not measure what is in people's hearts but we can infer it by statistics that measure things such as committing acts of violence such as assault or rape, or engaging in debasement such as drug abuse.

    And on these measures the poor (in general) do poorly compared to the rich. In Jesus time it was not the case.

    Nobody is saying that the bag lady you pass on the street is necessarily very much like Mary in the story above. However, I am inviting you to reflect that you and I are not necessarily better people than her given our various paths in life, and that the distance between any of us looks incredibly small when compared to the distance between all of us and that perfection to which we are called by Christ.

     

    I agree completely. The bag lady is probably mentally ill. I explicitly stated that a minority of poor are poor for no reason of their own at all.

    As for the rest - I describe, but do not judge. They should be, not idolized or praised as some kind of rebel against a bad capitalist order and allowed to further harm themselves (what a disgusting way to use human beings and their suffering) - but helped. And certainly not allowed to debase themselves and harm others.

    Replies: @RSDB, @Barbarossa

    things such as committing acts of violence such as assault or rape, or engaging in debasement such as drug abuse.

    And on these measures the poor (in general) do poorly compared to the rich.

    I am extremely doubtful that this is correct. It might be more accurate to say that the rich are less likely to prosecuted for these things. It’s worth mentioning that drug abuse may be often be perfectly legal while no less debasing. Higher income groups can afford to feed and cover up an addiction or abuse and violence more convincingly than a poorer person, but a veneer of functionality or affluence can often mask terrible things.

    An extreme case that comes to mind is someone like Epstein. He is an outlier in scale but money and a good lawyer washes away a multitude of sins.

    As the below article points out, we aren’t in the crack epidemic of the 80’s anymore.

    https://www.turnbridge.com/news-events/latest-articles/socioeconomic-status-and-drug-use/#

    • Agree: AnonfromTN
    • Thanks: RSDB
    • Replies: @AP
    @Barbarossa


    “And on these measures the poor (in general) do poorly compared to the rich.”

    I am extremely doubtful that this is correct [that in modern society poor are more sinful then middle and upper classes]. It might be more accurate to say that the rich are less likely to prosecuted for these things
     
    Then you are mistaken. I posted numerous citations that support my claim. A simple test: are you safer in a poor area or in a non-poor area? Compare Detroit to its suburbs, the south to the north side of Chicago, West Virginia to rural Massachusetts.

    It’s worth mentioning that drug abuse may be often be perfectly legal while no less debasing
     
    Possible, but the rates are still lower. And a glass of wine with one’s dinner or even a bit of coke at a weekend party is very different from a life revolving around such use or devoted to it.

    Though it seems to me that fake caricature of middle class supposedly devoting their lives to making $$$ might not be different in essence from the reality of some of the poor devoting their lives to their pleasures.

    Replies: @Barbarossa, @Barbarossa

  140. @Ivashka the fool
    @HeavilyMarbledSteak


    From afar, a mighty whirring could be heard approaching: it was the roar and clatter of a million mechanical devices gaining momentum, forming an overwhelming uproar of ingenuity and efficiency: speed and action for their own sake.
     


    https://youtu.be/B8r7iF39fx4

    Many of the current world pathologies are due to the humans leaving their assigned part of Creation and joining the Machine. The Technosphere rising will upend and transform human nature. The Technosphere advent is interlinked with the lust for profit that is characteristic of Capitalism. At the time that is describing in the book you referred to, the East did not yet go through the birth pains of Renaissance, the teenage years of the pre-industrial age and the early adulthood of the Belle Époque industrial (so-called Moderne) society. The East was still a Civilization of normal, non-transformed human beings.

    The West embraced Capitalism, built the Machine which evolved into the Technosphere, had two great industrial wars and nearly ended up having the third and final one. That is a lot of (vain ?) effort and sacrifice. That is why the West and those who joined into its system are today tired, demoralized and unfit for childbirth.

    We will still go through a lot of suffering. But one day either we will transcend the Machine, or the Technosphere will transcend us. For humankind as a species, there appears to be no middle ground.

    Replies: @Barbarossa, @HeavilyMarbledSteak

    I agree. I like to call it the Great Hamster Wheel of Capitalism. It spins furiously but gets nowhere. In fact, I’d say that the lack of direction and the hyperactivity are in a symbiotic relationship. The latter masks the former.

    Titties and sadism will keep the masses from having too many inconvenient questions bubble up in their minds!

  141. @Another Polish Perspective
    @AP

    AP, are you a Protestant or do you come from Protestant milieu?

    Your focus on "poor living more sinful lives" etc - whether you want or not - to some extent elevates wealth/material status to a proxy for moral/ethical status. That has reminded me about Calvin predestination theory, a theory which says that God has already chosen and this choice is expressed through his grace for the blessed, and lack of it for the damned. For some reason, it was further interpreted as the wealth being the sign of the grace of God, or of being chosen.


    The Church teaches that wealth is not as important as faith and use of that wealth in accordance with faith.
     
    This sounds very Protestant to me.
    Non-Protestant Churches do not teach that, as they stress that deeds are as important as faith is, and MORE IMPORTANT THAN WEALTH, as the Letter of St James - a standard Catholic retort to Protestant "only faith" argument - commands (James 2:14-19):

    14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

    18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”

    Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.
     

    You have to be careful not to contravene the verse 16, by twisting it for example in this way

    “Go in peace, sinner; now work, and keep warm and well fed”

    St James does not connect basic needs with working/not working status, so it must be concluded that the basic level of charity is COMMANDED WITHOUT CAVEATS. That is so since all Earth ultimately belongs to God, which means your wealth too ultimately belongs to him. The expression of God's sovereignty over your wealth is the Book of Job.

    Your problem is that there is really nothing in Scripture which connects the poor and sin. The predestination theory got around that with the concept of "visible God's grace" aka wealth. But your argument only partly relies on the concept of faith - you try empirically connect sin and the poor, but that is not scriptural - even if true in the specific reality of capitalist America: this is what I would call naturalization of religion.

    Replies: @Another Polish Perspective, @Barbarossa, @AP

    I’m inclined to suggest to both AP and AaronB the appropriate penance for their argument; each finding a homeless man and buying him a really good deli sandwich! Don’t forget a bag of chips and a cup o’ joe!

  142. @Ivashka the fool
    @AP

    I believe you are right about Mr Hack being a good Orthodox Christian. However, morality and ethics are not the monopoly of a certain creed. It is part and parcel of the deep, true, human nature. It is simply the best we have to offer as a species.

    It is not the religion that makes people good or bad. It is the opposite: a good person makes their religion better, a bad person makes their religion* worse.

    And one last thing, God is not religion. God is the ground of being, the beginning and the end to it all. God is impossible to describe or circumscribe into a human belief system.

    *(Although it is not a religion, I include Atheism among belief systems because one has to believe that there's no God to be an Atheist. There are moral and ethical people among the Atheists too. Varlam Shalamov was one of these.)

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @A123, @Mikel

    Who’s writing about “morality and ethics” here anyway, at least in a general sense? I was writing about “salvation” from the viewpoint of Christianity in a very specific sense. Of course, other religious systems do provide ethical and moral guideposts too, some even “salvation”, but I chose to frame my comment within the Christian subject matter that AP and Aaron were discussing. In fact, Aaron had prefaced a lot of his recent commentary within the framework of recently reading a lot of material written by the Church Fathers.

    • Replies: @Ivashka the fool
    @Mr. Hack

    My reply was to AP. The discussion of AP and Aaron was a discussion centered around ethical and moral teachings of Jesus. That is why I wrote that mature ethics and morality are simply a demonstration of a mature human being whether religious or not. Salvation is the byproduct of mature ethics and morality. Therefore, I believe that Salvation too cannot be a monopoly of a specific creed. But then it just my own subjective opinion.

  143. @AP
    @Mr. Hack

    You are absolutely correct. It’s very nice to see that the only devout Orthodox Christian here agrees with me as I argue with apostates and atheists about a faith they have chosen to abandon or to oppose. Thanks for the nice confirmation that I am on the right track.

    Replies: @Ivashka the fool, @Mr. Hack

    I think that both you and Aaron possess some aspect of the whole truth as far as this matter goes. Aaron tends to emphasize those that go astray in their relationship with earthly goods, whereas you tend to see the few individuals who rely on God to guide them with the dispossession of their wealth to help humanity. Both viewpoints are accurate but don’t reflect the whole truth, IMHO. There really doesn’t need to be much controversy here?

  144. @Ivashka the fool
    Another sex scandal in Vatican led Church.

    https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/lockdown-orgy-st-marys-cathedral-sparks-vatican-investigation

    Replies: @AP

    I knew a guy in Moscow who worked as a liaison between the Russian government security services and the Russian Orthodox Church. He used to talk about drunken parties in the monasteries, with a stream of prostitutes being supplied to the monks.

    Note that I am describing, not judging 🙂

    • Replies: @Barbarossa
    @AP

    Similarly, I know a guy who was a logger for many years and while he was on a job logging some woods owned by a local Trappist monastery. They found a cache of the nastiest porno mags imaginable hidden in the woods near the monastery.


    I'm not saying this in judgement or mockery, but it's a fundamental truth that we are imperfect humans subject to the worst excesses and hypocrisy. In the end, we should support those who strive, love and forgive those who fail, and hold to account those who enable and encourage the corruption of others.

    I've been to the monastery many times and it is undoubtedly a place of great peace with many holy men therein. It is a place which exudes in a palpable way, a sense of deep peace, but even there will surface the worst human imperfections.

    Replies: @Ivashka the fool

    , @Ivashka the fool
    @AP

    Oh I am not surprised. That is one of the reasons that led me away from the Church. It is a human institution despite all talk to the contrary. Being human it is deeply flawed. However, a lot of Church going people and a lot of priests are good people. As I wrote in my reply above, good people make their religion better, bad people make their religion worse. It is all about humans manifesting consciousness. We call it Mind...

  145. @songbird
    @Sher Singh


    https://twitter.com/BirthGauge/status/1522467845967388674?s=20&t=0ZdK3Z13H-3z3dASboMRuA

    https://twitter.com/KingIbo01784308/status/1583473967129858054?s=20&t=0ZdK3Z13H-3z3dASboMRuA

    Replies: @Thulean Friend

    Only Sikh Majority Punjab India Has a High Chance of Becoming Sikh Minority in next 20 yrs

    At first glance, this seemed improbable but the Indian census seems to back it up.

    The 2010s saw a *massive* emigration wave out of Punjab, often Sikhs to Canada. The Indian 2023 census should probably still show a slight Sikh majority but the 2030s could very well be when they fall into absolute minority status, even before Whites in America.

    Given this background, his racebaiting is almost comical. He already belongs to a stateless people. Now on the cusp of becoming minorities in their historic homeland. Impossible to take clowns like that seriously given their own precarious position(s).

    [MORE]
    To be frank, I wouldn’t spend too much time on either singh or yahya. Neither is particularly intelligent and both are aggrieved by racial inferiority complex. FWIW, if you have a Twitter acc or a Telegram acc I would be interested in following it. This blog is probably slowly dying anyway. If I wanted to read some 3rd worlder’s /pol/tard take I could just go to the original source.

    • Replies: @Yahya
    @Thulean Friend


    To be frank, I wouldn’t spend too much time on either singh or yahya
     
    You are too much of a coward to even insult people to their face. Just the usual passive-agressiveness; characteristic of females but also racist weaklings like yourself, songbird and S.

    You have to be the weirdest character I’ve yet encountered on this site (and that’s saying a lot). Utu had it right when he called you a “bot-and-troll incarnation”.

    But you and songbird go have your fun together on Telegram and Twitter. He can LARP as a German and you can pretend to be a Pole.

    , @songbird
    @Thulean Friend


    To be frank, I wouldn’t spend too much time on either singh or yahya.
     
    Honestly, I do find Singh's occasional crudities distasteful. But I have always gotten the idea with him that it was nothing personal, that he simply enjoys contention and trolling. In another age, perhaps, he would be taunting (probably mooning) us on the battlefield, while brandishing his sword.

    Perhaps, yahya would say the same of himself, but he seems more like a negative stereotype, hot-blooded and nursing a grudge forever. With him, it does seem personal, he seems to weirdly interpret everything as a personal insult (whether or not it even touches on Arabs), and I do think you are right, that it is tied to some inferiority complex. (And I would specifically say narcissism. Maybe, encouraged by his sense of entitlement due to class)

    There is this idea that having old ruins can stultify a civilization, by encouraging people to get lost in old glories. Our old friend under the new avatar, HMS, mentioned Burton. I recall that Burton wrote that proper Arabs used to scornfully call Egyptians "Children of the Pharaoh."

    Imagine that was because they couldn't claim the same heritage, but yahya is of both sides. It gets a little ridiculous because you enter into geo-determinism, not to mention the cold math of it. At 4600 years, I'd speculate that even the East Asian commentors are descended from the pharoahs. Of course, DNA is something different, but, in fact, we are all of us lucky not to be born into the severely inbred royalty of ancient Egypt.

    The 2010s saw a *massive* emigration wave out of Punjab, often Sikhs to Canada.
     
    Am fascinated by the movement of Sikhs. Only guessed it, but if I understand correctly, it is because they get some sort of priority status as "refugees." (Did Sher Singh or his parents get this status? And wouldn't it be at odds with the style of his posting?)

    Am ignorant about the local conditions, but it seems like a scam to me. (Are Sikhs really threatened? Would guess not.) Fascinating to contemplate. Why the priority status? Seemingly because they are a novelty, a small minority of Indians. Maybe, refugee regulations are built on a conception of the highest value being assigned to individuals, rather than groups, but it still seems like a great irony that they are weakening this exotic and unique group and helping turn them into a minority in their historic homelands.

    It is easy to perceive that cultural harm is done on both sides.

    FWIW, if you have a Twitter acc or a Telegram acc I would be interested in following it.
     
    Afraid I do all my sh-tposting here.

    Don't feel scholarly enough to post to Twitter or Telegram. And while I enjoy trying to make jokes, I feel like the freebooting era of twitter is over (despite Musk), and a lot of my favorite, humorous characters on it (and there were some ingenious ones), were never welcomed back, after being banned.

    Heard also that Thomas777 was banned from Telegram, so it doesn't seem to be a completely free platform either. No idea why he was banned, but I can somewhat guess. (something to do with the J-question)

    Replies: @Sher Singh

  146. @Barbarossa
    @AP


    things such as committing acts of violence such as assault or rape, or engaging in debasement such as drug abuse.

    And on these measures the poor (in general) do poorly compared to the rich.
     
    I am extremely doubtful that this is correct. It might be more accurate to say that the rich are less likely to prosecuted for these things. It's worth mentioning that drug abuse may be often be perfectly legal while no less debasing. Higher income groups can afford to feed and cover up an addiction or abuse and violence more convincingly than a poorer person, but a veneer of functionality or affluence can often mask terrible things.

    An extreme case that comes to mind is someone like Epstein. He is an outlier in scale but money and a good lawyer washes away a multitude of sins.

    As the below article points out, we aren't in the crack epidemic of the 80's anymore.

    https://www.turnbridge.com/news-events/latest-articles/socioeconomic-status-and-drug-use/#

    Replies: @AP

    “And on these measures the poor (in general) do poorly compared to the rich.”

    I am extremely doubtful that this is correct [that in modern society poor are more sinful then middle and upper classes]. It might be more accurate to say that the rich are less likely to prosecuted for these things

    Then you are mistaken. I posted numerous citations that support my claim. A simple test: are you safer in a poor area or in a non-poor area? Compare Detroit to its suburbs, the south to the north side of Chicago, West Virginia to rural Massachusetts.

    It’s worth mentioning that drug abuse may be often be perfectly legal while no less debasing

    Possible, but the rates are still lower. And a glass of wine with one’s dinner or even a bit of coke at a weekend party is very different from a life revolving around such use or devoted to it.

    Though it seems to me that fake caricature of middle class supposedly devoting their lives to making $$$ might not be different in essence from the reality of some of the poor devoting their lives to their pleasures.

    • Replies: @Barbarossa
    @AP

    I live in one of the very poorest counties in NY and I never lock my doors at all. I would say that my level of safety is extremely high, certainly much higher than a great many wealthier counties in the state.

    For what it's worth I would take some of the statistics with a grain of salt. A poor pervert may molest their family members but a rich one can go on a child sex vacation in Cambodia. A richer person can afford to more circumspect in these matters while the poor make less pretense about it.

    Alcoholism and hard drug addiction are very prevalent in the upper strata, it's not just the occasional glass of wine! Just look at Hollywood for evidence of that. Hollywood gets constant scrutiny from the tabloid angle, but the same stuff comes out periodically any time there is any expose of the upper class. Would you really argue that our societal decadence in not a top-down phenomenon?

    I'm not saying that either the rich or poor are worse, just that my own observation has been that the very worst personality traits are present in both groups. When the materially better off are callous and brutal they often veneer it in a very urbane way, but the effect is no less cruel than the desperate cruelty of a homeless man on the street. Society implicitly offers forgiveness to the former while condemning the latter, for the former is at least a "success" while the other is a "failure" in the great material game.

    Replies: @Ivashka the fool, @AP, @sudden death

    , @Barbarossa
    @AP

    Also, did read this from my previous post?

    https://www.turnbridge.com/news-events/latest-articles/socioeconomic-status-and-drug-use/#

    Replies: @RSDB, @AP

  147. @AP
    @Ivashka the fool

    I knew a guy in Moscow who worked as a liaison between the Russian government security services and the Russian Orthodox Church. He used to talk about drunken parties in the monasteries, with a stream of prostitutes being supplied to the monks.

    Note that I am describing, not judging :-)

    Replies: @Barbarossa, @Ivashka the fool

    Similarly, I know a guy who was a logger for many years and while he was on a job logging some woods owned by a local Trappist monastery. They found a cache of the nastiest porno mags imaginable hidden in the woods near the monastery.

    I’m not saying this in judgement or mockery, but it’s a fundamental truth that we are imperfect humans subject to the worst excesses and hypocrisy. In the end, we should support those who strive, love and forgive those who fail, and hold to account those who enable and encourage the corruption of others.

    I’ve been to the monastery many times and it is undoubtedly a place of great peace with many holy men therein. It is a place which exudes in a palpable way, a sense of deep peace, but even there will surface the worst human imperfections.

    • Agree: AP
    • Replies: @Ivashka the fool
    @Barbarossa

    Some people have a complex and a twisted take on spiritual things. They basically use it as kind of hard drug. Those people are also more likely to both exhibit deviant sexual behavior and join spiritual groups and monastic communities.



    https://youtu.be/WPbeEtjo70g

    An interesting take on this subject.

    🙂

  148. @Mr. Hack
    @Ivashka the fool

    Who's writing about "morality and ethics" here anyway, at least in a general sense? I was writing about "salvation" from the viewpoint of Christianity in a very specific sense. Of course, other religious systems do provide ethical and moral guideposts too, some even "salvation", but I chose to frame my comment within the Christian subject matter that AP and Aaron were discussing. In fact, Aaron had prefaced a lot of his recent commentary within the framework of recently reading a lot of material written by the Church Fathers.

    Replies: @Ivashka the fool

    My reply was to AP. The discussion of AP and Aaron was a discussion centered around ethical and moral teachings of Jesus. That is why I wrote that mature ethics and morality are simply a demonstration of a mature human being whether religious or not. Salvation is the byproduct of mature ethics and morality. Therefore, I believe that Salvation too cannot be a monopoly of a specific creed. But then it just my own subjective opinion.

  149. @AP
    @Ivashka the fool

    I knew a guy in Moscow who worked as a liaison between the Russian government security services and the Russian Orthodox Church. He used to talk about drunken parties in the monasteries, with a stream of prostitutes being supplied to the monks.

    Note that I am describing, not judging :-)

    Replies: @Barbarossa, @Ivashka the fool

    Oh I am not surprised. That is one of the reasons that led me away from the Church. It is a human institution despite all talk to the contrary. Being human it is deeply flawed. However, a lot of Church going people and a lot of priests are good people. As I wrote in my reply above, good people make their religion better, bad people make their religion worse. It is all about humans manifesting consciousness. We call it Mind…

  150. @Barbarossa
    @AP

    Similarly, I know a guy who was a logger for many years and while he was on a job logging some woods owned by a local Trappist monastery. They found a cache of the nastiest porno mags imaginable hidden in the woods near the monastery.


    I'm not saying this in judgement or mockery, but it's a fundamental truth that we are imperfect humans subject to the worst excesses and hypocrisy. In the end, we should support those who strive, love and forgive those who fail, and hold to account those who enable and encourage the corruption of others.

    I've been to the monastery many times and it is undoubtedly a place of great peace with many holy men therein. It is a place which exudes in a palpable way, a sense of deep peace, but even there will surface the worst human imperfections.

    Replies: @Ivashka the fool

    Some people have a complex and a twisted take on spiritual things. They basically use it as kind of hard drug. Those people are also more likely to both exhibit deviant sexual behavior and join spiritual groups and monastic communities.

    [MORE]

    An interesting take on this subject.

    🙂

  151. @Thulean Friend
    @songbird


    Only Sikh Majority Punjab India Has a High Chance of Becoming Sikh Minority in next 20 yrs
     
    At first glance, this seemed improbable but the Indian census seems to back it up.

    https://i.imgur.com/YHQqFRt.png

    The 2010s saw a *massive* emigration wave out of Punjab, often Sikhs to Canada. The Indian 2023 census should probably still show a slight Sikh majority but the 2030s could very well be when they fall into absolute minority status, even before Whites in America.

    Given this background, his racebaiting is almost comical. He already belongs to a stateless people. Now on the cusp of becoming minorities in their historic homeland. Impossible to take clowns like that seriously given their own precarious position(s).


    To be frank, I wouldn't spend too much time on either singh or yahya. Neither is particularly intelligent and both are aggrieved by racial inferiority complex. FWIW, if you have a Twitter acc or a Telegram acc I would be interested in following it. This blog is probably slowly dying anyway. If I wanted to read some 3rd worlder's /pol/tard take I could just go to the original source.

    Replies: @Yahya, @songbird

    To be frank, I wouldn’t spend too much time on either singh or yahya

    You are too much of a coward to even insult people to their face. Just the usual passive-agressiveness; characteristic of females but also racist weaklings like yourself, songbird and S.

    You have to be the weirdest character I’ve yet encountered on this site (and that’s saying a lot). Utu had it right when he called you a “bot-and-troll incarnation”.

    But you and songbird go have your fun together on Telegram and Twitter. He can LARP as a German and you can pretend to be a Pole.

  152. @Another Polish Perspective
    @AP

    AP, are you a Protestant or do you come from Protestant milieu?

    Your focus on "poor living more sinful lives" etc - whether you want or not - to some extent elevates wealth/material status to a proxy for moral/ethical status. That has reminded me about Calvin predestination theory, a theory which says that God has already chosen and this choice is expressed through his grace for the blessed, and lack of it for the damned. For some reason, it was further interpreted as the wealth being the sign of the grace of God, or of being chosen.


    The Church teaches that wealth is not as important as faith and use of that wealth in accordance with faith.
     
    This sounds very Protestant to me.
    Non-Protestant Churches do not teach that, as they stress that deeds are as important as faith is, and MORE IMPORTANT THAN WEALTH, as the Letter of St James - a standard Catholic retort to Protestant "only faith" argument - commands (James 2:14-19):

    14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

    18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”

    Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.
     

    You have to be careful not to contravene the verse 16, by twisting it for example in this way

    “Go in peace, sinner; now work, and keep warm and well fed”

    St James does not connect basic needs with working/not working status, so it must be concluded that the basic level of charity is COMMANDED WITHOUT CAVEATS. That is so since all Earth ultimately belongs to God, which means your wealth too ultimately belongs to him. The expression of God's sovereignty over your wealth is the Book of Job.

    Your problem is that there is really nothing in Scripture which connects the poor and sin. The predestination theory got around that with the concept of "visible God's grace" aka wealth. But your argument only partly relies on the concept of faith - you try empirically connect sin and the poor, but that is not scriptural - even if true in the specific reality of capitalist America: this is what I would call naturalization of religion.

    Replies: @Another Polish Perspective, @Barbarossa, @AP

    “ The Church teaches that wealth is not as important as faith and use of that wealth in accordance with faith.”

    This sounds very Protestant to me.

    What it sounds like to you is irrelevant. I supported what I wrote by only using Catholic and Orthodox sources. And it was what I have heard in sermons at my local Greek Catholic church. Tbh I haven’t even read the Protestant literature on wealth and poverty. But using Biblical quotes out of context to support some point seems to be a very Protestant approach.

    Non-Protestant Churches do not teach that, as they stress that deeds are as important as faith is, and MORE IMPORTANT THAN WEALTH

    What do you think I meant when I wrote “use of that wealth in accordance with faith?”

    Your problem is that there is really nothing in Scripture which connects the poor and sin

    And why should it? In the pre-Christian world of Jesus’s time there indeed probably was no connection between the poor and sin.

    The predestination theory

    Nowhere did I imply agreement with predestination.

    To observe that the poor tend to sin a lot more than the non-poor in modern Western society is not to imply that the poor are predestined to sin. Indeed on numerous occasions I have stated that we must intervene to help them not to sin, to bring them into the light, and not allow them to wallow in their sins as AaronB would want.

    I have stated that Christianity has completely changed people and downstream of that, has fundamentally altered the nature of society. Our Christian (or immediately post-Christian) society takes Christian virtues for granted and supports them, makes it easier to follow them (indeed, makes it socially unacceptable not to). This is something to be celebrated. How fortunate we are to be living in a place where a Christian way of life does not result in persecution. Accordingly, working to undermine or overthrow this society as progressives often try to do, or celebrate its malcontents, is bad.

    This is not to say that we have achieved perfection; we are far from it. But the task of Christians in a Christian society with regards to that society (I am not addressing one’s personal works) is to further perfect it and to protect it, rather than to undermine or destroy it.

    • Replies: @Another Polish Perspective
    @AP


    What it sounds like to you is irrelevant. I supported what I wrote by only using Catholic and Orthodox sources.

     

    It is not irrelevant. Maybe you should try to find what your religion says in its entire complexity. When I was a child, I thought - judging from these thick missals in church - that the entire Bible is read within the liturgical year. But this is not true. A lot of Bible is never discussed in the church.
    It should also be worrying to you that you can be credibly - such is my opinion - taken for a Protestant.

    I supported what I wrote by only using Catholic and Orthodox sources.


     

    If you meant referring only to these books of Bible which are part of the Catholic and Orthodox canons, but are not included in the Protestant canon, you did not.

    What do you think I meant when I wrote “use of that wealth in accordance with faith?”
     
    The concept of faith is much broader than the concept of deeds. You could mean funding missions abroad (what Protestants like to do), or you could mean funding either reconstruction or construction of new, ornate church buildings (what the Orthodox and the Uniates like to do, at least judging from what I have seen in the pre-war Ukraine). But all that is not what St James meant. Well, he probably meant deeds generally as following Torah law (Letter of St James belongs to Judaeo-Christian part of NT), but as he did single out helping the destitute people in specific, we cannot have doubts concerning this particular verse of James 2:15-16.

    I have stated that Christianity has completely changed people and downstream of that, has fundamentally altered the nature of society.
     
    I wouldn't fully agree with that "Christianity has completely changed people" , since paganism partly merged with Christianity. Cult of St Mary is a clear infusion of Scripture-foreign spirituality to Christianity, which again would mean that there is a conflict between Christian cult and Scripture, a conflict which often resonates through that what you named

    using Biblical quotes out of context to support some point
     
    You can rarely be sure whether someone just proposes a new reading or tries to adopt Scripture to his position predetermined by his pagan-related concerns.

    Replies: @Another Polish Perspective, @AP

  153. Response to previous thread:

    Frankly, I believe this Ukrainian demographic catastrophe (the forced exile of so many Ukrainians due to war) is so unjust and so dangerous that there needs to be some kind of an international effort (beyond just the help for the refugees) to mitigate this and help them repatriate. I think the unprecedented nature and the sheer scale calls for it.

    Elite EU leadership is about maximizing migrant inflows. Why would they help repatriate?

    The goal of EU corporations & banks is preventing repatriation. Can you name any significant German party (other than AfD) that would lead a return effort? Certainly, all three members of Scholz Traffic Light coalition would strenuously block such an idea.

    Pushing Zelensky to seek an immediate armistice would be ideal for repatriation. It would protect infrastructure in Ukraine’s West. What is Elite EU leadership doing? They are trying to push heavy tanks into they fray, extending the fight, and making repatriation less likely.

    The whole thing feels like controlled opposition. Or, “Good Cop / Bad Cop”.
    ____

    Knowing that Europe’s leaders are against repatriation.

    How would an international effort form & function?

    The U.S. is going to be an internally focused “basket case” for the next couple years. So, no leadership available here. There is always the possibility to extract some cash, but that is different than authority towards a result.

    I suppose China & Turkey could run such an international effort. However, I am not sure they would be willing to step up in that manner. It would be highly visible with little opportunity for reward. And, they both have their own fractious domestic issues.
    ___

    As long as Europe’s Elites are aggressively pro migration, refugees with Ukrainian identity documents are highly likely to stay. Many of the ~⅔ genuine Ukrainians you want to repatriate. And, almost all of the ~⅓ MENA origin using forgeries.

    PEACE 😇

    • Replies: @LatW
    @A123


    Elite EU leadership is about maximizing migrant inflows. Why would they help repatriate?
     
    Just because something has not been done before doesn't mean it cannot be done, even on an ad hoc basis. This extraordinary war has created a novel situation where many new approaches could be put in place.

    I was talking about Ukrainians specifically, not all migrants into the EU, so let's keep these separate (even if the repatriation of certain non-Ukrainians may be an issue as well). There is nothing in the EU that would keep Ukrainians from repatriating back to Ukraine, if they wanted so (as many of them do). The issue is purely technical - they are not able to return to their old homes and there is not enough housing for them in the Western parts of Ukraine that is readily available.

    Knowing that Europe’s leaders are against repatriation.
     

    In the case of Ukrainians, they are not. They only oppose repatriation of non-Europeans, as far as I can tell. If you want to push another one your anti-EU lies, then I can't help you.

    How would an international effort form & function?
     

    Because Ukraine is so deeply affected by the war, their government may not be able to fully organize this repatriation and are probably hoping and relying on the refugees own initiative to return. But there needs to be a more concerted effort. This would be tied to reconstruction when the time comes and possibly some construction of new housing already now in the more peaceful areas. The way it could function is the way that the current volunteer networks are already functioning. Ukraine's current closes allies could help.

    The U.S. is going to be an internally focused “basket case” for the next couple years. So, no leadership available here.
     

    I agree that the US has a leadership problem. But I wasn't thinking of the US here, but more of Europe & the UK. Those refugees who are in the US, I don't have much hope of repatriating them, as it may be too difficult already.

    As long as Europe’s Elites are aggressively pro migration, refugees with Ukrainian identity documents are highly likely to stay.
     
    If they had readily available housing in the peaceful areas of Ukraine as well as means to get by, a large chunk of them would be willing to return.

    Another option in more general terms, would be to create an E. European political group that would explicitly request the Western countries not to source Eastern European doctors and nurses (and even other vital professions). Yes, this does go against the idea of free movement of labor, but it can also be argued that EEs (including Ukraine) should not be strip mined in that manner (or should be compensated because the movement is too one sided and it is the EE countries who prepare these specialists).

    Pushing Zelensky to seek an immediate armistice would be ideal for repatriation. It would protect infrastructure in Ukraine’s West. What is Elite EU leadership doing? They are trying to push heavy tanks into they fray, extending the fight, and making repatriation less likely.

     

    To not support Ukraine is out of the question - the decision has been made to preserve Ukraine's statehood. It is no longer likely that West Ukraine (or even the majority of the center of the country) will be bombed out. It is possible that the hot phase of the war will be over by the end of the year, thus the repatriation efforts could be commenced (in fact, this could already be done now).

    Of course, the Ukrainian refugees are welcome to stay for as long as they need to.

    And, almost all of the ~⅓ MENA origin using forgeries.
     

    From what I understand, there is some filtering going on of MENA's who are pretending to be Ukrainian. Every person should be checked (this is the procedure anyway). I have heard that some have been sent to their country of origin.

    Replies: @A123

  154. @Barbarossa
    @Ivashka the fool

    That all makes sense to me. As a practical matter it would seem to me that the best policy would to attempt to bring the immune system into a better state of self regulation. Previously I was thinking more in terms of boosting immune system activity but now I'm leaning more toward regulation and support.

    I would guess that herbs and foods with natural antibiotic and antiviral properties would be helpful since they would take some pressure off an over stimulated immune system. Strangely enough though, I always had extremely good results from drinking an extremely strong fresh ginger tea to kick a cold. Since the Covid era, it doesn't seem to have the same effect. I'll have to do more reading and experimentation to see if I can find any combinations which make a noticeable difference.

    Replies: @Ivashka the fool, @Emil Nikola Richard

    1. George Washington’s rules civility: never give medical advice to anybody unless you are employed as their doctor.

    2. Roger Federer’s competition guide: if sleep were a performance enhancing drug, it would be 20X more powerful than the second best performance drug.

    Battle of the Nations
    Russia Denmark

  155. @AP
    @Barbarossa


    “And on these measures the poor (in general) do poorly compared to the rich.”

    I am extremely doubtful that this is correct [that in modern society poor are more sinful then middle and upper classes]. It might be more accurate to say that the rich are less likely to prosecuted for these things
     
    Then you are mistaken. I posted numerous citations that support my claim. A simple test: are you safer in a poor area or in a non-poor area? Compare Detroit to its suburbs, the south to the north side of Chicago, West Virginia to rural Massachusetts.

    It’s worth mentioning that drug abuse may be often be perfectly legal while no less debasing
     
    Possible, but the rates are still lower. And a glass of wine with one’s dinner or even a bit of coke at a weekend party is very different from a life revolving around such use or devoted to it.

    Though it seems to me that fake caricature of middle class supposedly devoting their lives to making $$$ might not be different in essence from the reality of some of the poor devoting their lives to their pleasures.

    Replies: @Barbarossa, @Barbarossa

    I live in one of the very poorest counties in NY and I never lock my doors at all. I would say that my level of safety is extremely high, certainly much higher than a great many wealthier counties in the state.

    For what it’s worth I would take some of the statistics with a grain of salt. A poor pervert may molest their family members but a rich one can go on a child sex vacation in Cambodia. A richer person can afford to more circumspect in these matters while the poor make less pretense about it.

    Alcoholism and hard drug addiction are very prevalent in the upper strata, it’s not just the occasional glass of wine! Just look at Hollywood for evidence of that. Hollywood gets constant scrutiny from the tabloid angle, but the same stuff comes out periodically any time there is any expose of the upper class. Would you really argue that our societal decadence in not a top-down phenomenon?

    I’m not saying that either the rich or poor are worse, just that my own observation has been that the very worst personality traits are present in both groups. When the materially better off are callous and brutal they often veneer it in a very urbane way, but the effect is no less cruel than the desperate cruelty of a homeless man on the street. Society implicitly offers forgiveness to the former while condemning the latter, for the former is at least a “success” while the other is a “failure” in the great material game.

    • Replies: @Ivashka the fool
    @Barbarossa

    I believe you are correct. History is written by the victors and social norms are prescribed and enforced by the powerful. If a society is corrupt, it is because the powerful and rich are corrupt. As comrade Trotsky used to say ; "a fish always rots starting by its head".

    The elites set the trends, the plebs follow according to their (lack of) understanding. And many a redneck I've known were way more humane and well behaved than wannabe Paris bobos (a most despicable type of human being). Basically, the redneck stereotypes presented in the Hollywood movies are a projection of elites' perverted complex of superiority.

    Have no idea whether the Hood Coon stereotype of the inner city Negro is a similar projection. I haven't known any of these types, but here again, the elites encourage a certain type of behavior in these people through gangster rap (or is it now trap house ?) music, fashion and group attitudes. Nothing good comes from any of these for anyone, but elite types who sign and promote these people make moneys out of their decay. And it allows to keep them disorganized and at each other's throats, bringing their demographics down.

    Society is built to suit the rich. A sick society is built to suit the sick types of rich people.

    , @AP
    @Barbarossa


    I live in one of the very poorest counties in NY and I never lock my doors at all. I would say that my level of safety is extremely high, certainly much higher than a great many wealthier counties in the state
     
    I suspect that your area’s stats might be artificially low because of a lot of Amish being off the grid. Also, some of the wealthy areas have poor living in close proximity to rich, whereas you guys are living on farms.

    For what it’s worth I would take some of the statistics with a grain of salt. A poor pervert may molest their family members but a rich one can go on a child sex vacation in Cambodia. A richer person can afford to more circumspect in these matters while the poor make less pretense about it.

     

    On the other hand, rich people don’t tolerate crime and have the means to get criminals arrested. So more crimes are probably reports and registered in rich or middle class areas than in poor areas.

    Do you really think there is a comparable level of crime in a WV trailer park as there is in a prosperous New England village? Setting aside the issue of race, Charles Murray wrote an entire book simply comparing poor versus wealthy Whites; the differences were really stark. It is sad and unfortunate that the wealthy have too often chosen to abandon the poor to their fate.

    Alcoholism and hard drug addiction are very prevalent in the upper strata
     
    It certainly exists, but is not as prevalent as among the poor.

    Would you really argue that our societal decadence in not a top-down phenomenon?
     
    It’s a bottom up phenomenon, in that the top no longer encourage the poor to live by the top’s correct moral code (even though they themselves have not abandoned it). About half of poor Whites have kids out of wedlock, IIRC only 20% of prosperous Whites do. So how does this come from the top? The problem with the top is that it has become too passive and tolerant. The poor aren’t encouraged to try to act like the middle and upper classes, unless they are poor people like rappers who have managed to get a lot of money while retaining their poor morals. AaronB who idolizes the poor is an extreme example.

    When the materially better off are callous and brutal they often veneer it in a very urbane way
     
    This is because we live in a society that is generally good and, as a consequence, cruelty and brutality are looked down upon and those who engage in it try to hide it.

    Replies: @Barbarossa

    , @sudden death
    @Barbarossa


    I live in one of the very poorest counties in NY and I never lock my doors at all.

     

    Just have in mind that once in a blue moon by freak chance accidents also can happen as sadly you never know all the time who may be roaming around:

    Two weeks later, he attempted to enter the home of a woman, but because her doors were locked, he walked away. Chase later told detectives that he took locked doors as a sign that he was not welcome, but unlocked doors were an invitation to come inside.
     
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Chase

    Replies: @songbird

  156. @Yahya
    @songbird

    Deceit once again.

    1) The first map you linked to shows Turkish-Greek genetic distance (5) as being smaller than Greek-German (6). Now you shift around like a snake; linking to another Tweet.

    2) We were talking about the Irish, not Germans.

    3) Ancient Greeks were further from Germans in antiquity than today. Modern Greeks received 20-25% Slavic admixture following the fall of Byzantium; which pulled them towards Germany (itself a Slavic-mixed nation).

    4) Turks exhibit 12-20% East Eurasian admixture which pulls them away from Greeks. Since East Eurasian DNA is extremely distant from West Eurasian DNA; just a small pulse can dramatically shift Turks on the PCA. But even so, Turks are still closer to Greeks than the Irish (and every other N. European nation). In fact a substantial portion of Turks are in essence Turkified Greeks. Had it not been for East Eurasian admixture; Turks would be almost identical to Greeks genetically.

    5) The Irish have squat-all to do with Ancient Greece.

    So your efforts to "own" fail miserably once again; owing to your general incoherence and lack of honesty.

    Replies: @Wokechoke, @Finn, @Philip Owen, @Emil Nikola Richard

    • Replies: @songbird
    @Emil Nikola Richard

    Most likely a metaphor or a mistranslation.

    I've read large parts of different Irish annals, and it is quite easy to perceive that there were some mistakes in translation, even though they were written by scholarly people.

    Replies: @Emil Nikola Richard

  157. @AP
    @Another Polish Perspective


    “ The Church teaches that wealth is not as important as faith and use of that wealth in accordance with faith.”

    This sounds very Protestant to me.
     
    What it sounds like to you is irrelevant. I supported what I wrote by only using Catholic and Orthodox sources. And it was what I have heard in sermons at my local Greek Catholic church. Tbh I haven’t even read the Protestant literature on wealth and poverty. But using Biblical quotes out of context to support some point seems to be a very Protestant approach.

    Non-Protestant Churches do not teach that, as they stress that deeds are as important as faith is, and MORE IMPORTANT THAN WEALTH
     
    What do you think I meant when I wrote “use of that wealth in accordance with faith?”

    Your problem is that there is really nothing in Scripture which connects the poor and sin
     
    And why should it? In the pre-Christian world of Jesus’s time there indeed probably was no connection between the poor and sin.

    The predestination theory
     
    Nowhere did I imply agreement with predestination.

    To observe that the poor tend to sin a lot more than the non-poor in modern Western society is not to imply that the poor are predestined to sin. Indeed on numerous occasions I have stated that we must intervene to help them not to sin, to bring them into the light, and not allow them to wallow in their sins as AaronB would want.

    I have stated that Christianity has completely changed people and downstream of that, has fundamentally altered the nature of society. Our Christian (or immediately post-Christian) society takes Christian virtues for granted and supports them, makes it easier to follow them (indeed, makes it socially unacceptable not to). This is something to be celebrated. How fortunate we are to be living in a place where a Christian way of life does not result in persecution. Accordingly, working to undermine or overthrow this society as progressives often try to do, or celebrate its malcontents, is bad.

    This is not to say that we have achieved perfection; we are far from it. But the task of Christians in a Christian society with regards to that society (I am not addressing one’s personal works) is to further perfect it and to protect it, rather than to undermine or destroy it.

    Replies: @Another Polish Perspective

    What it sounds like to you is irrelevant. I supported what I wrote by only using Catholic and Orthodox sources.

    It is not irrelevant. Maybe you should try to find what your religion says in its entire complexity. When I was a child, I thought – judging from these thick missals in church – that the entire Bible is read within the liturgical year. But this is not true. A lot of Bible is never discussed in the church.
    It should also be worrying to you that you can be credibly – such is my opinion – taken for a Protestant.

    I supported what I wrote by only using Catholic and Orthodox sources.

    If you meant referring only to these books of Bible which are part of the Catholic and Orthodox canons, but are not included in the Protestant canon, you did not.

    What do you think I meant when I wrote “use of that wealth in accordance with faith?”

    The concept of faith is much broader than the concept of deeds. You could mean funding missions abroad (what Protestants like to do), or you could mean funding either reconstruction or construction of new, ornate church buildings (what the Orthodox and the Uniates like to do, at least judging from what I have seen in the pre-war Ukraine). But all that is not what St James meant. Well, he probably meant deeds generally as following Torah law (Letter of St James belongs to Judaeo-Christian part of NT), but as he did single out helping the destitute people in specific, we cannot have doubts concerning this particular verse of James 2:15-16.

    I have stated that Christianity has completely changed people and downstream of that, has fundamentally altered the nature of society.

    I wouldn’t fully agree with that “Christianity has completely changed people” , since paganism partly merged with Christianity. Cult of St Mary is a clear infusion of Scripture-foreign spirituality to Christianity, which again would mean that there is a conflict between Christian cult and Scripture, a conflict which often resonates through that what you named

    using Biblical quotes out of context to support some point

    You can rarely be sure whether someone just proposes a new reading or tries to adopt Scripture to his position predetermined by his pagan-related concerns.

    • Replies: @Another Polish Perspective
    @Another Polish Perspective

    The good example that Christianity as such does not change society much, is the Late Roman Empire. This state, before and after Constantine the Great, substantially did not change. Circa forty years after the Edict of Milan, Julian the Apostate wasn't opposed by any Christian revolt or a Christian claimant to imperial throne.

    As for Calvin, I once read about his original theory. As soon as I have read about the fixed number of the chosen (circa 6000), I started suspecting him of some gnostic inspiration.

    Replies: @Another Polish Perspective, @S

    , @AP
    @Another Polish Perspective


    It is not irrelevant. Maybe you should try to find what your religion says in its entire complexity
     
    It’s why I post from Catholic and Orthodox sources.

    It should also be worrying to you that you can be credibly – such is my opinion – taken for a Protestant
     
    You should rather question your assumptions when I literally post arguments from Orthodox and Catholic sources and thinkers and you accuse these arguments of Protestantism.

    The concept of faith is much broader than the concept of deeds. You could mean funding missions abroad (what Protestants like to do), or you could mean funding either reconstruction or construction of new, ornate church buildings (what the Orthodox and the Uniates like to do, at least judging from what I have seen in the pre-war Ukraine)
     
    Before the war we were collecting money for orphanages and schools in church.

    he did single out helping the destitute people in specific, we cannot have doubts concerning this particular verse of James 2:15-16.
     
    One of the things that upset AaronB was when I insisted that the destitute need to be removed from the streets and placed in rehab facilities or hospitals, and in the last case even prison if they are a danger to themselves or to other people and there is no other recourse.

    AaronB claimed that these poor and suffering people were some kind of righteous rebels against an evil society, compared them to ancient monks, and insisted that they should be left alone. Dmitry even compared my approach to Stalinism.

    I

    wouldn’t fully agree with that “Christianity has completely changed people” , since paganism partly merged with Christianity
     
    Compatible parts, sure. The contrast of a society that values strength and killing and builds arenas where people watch other people being slaughtered for entertainment, versus one that values mercy and kindness and builds public hospitals reflects the radical change in values.

    conflict between Christian cult and Scripture
     
    There is no conflict because Scripture can only be property understood as interpreted by the Church.

    Protestants decided to interpret Scripture on their own and based on their own interpretation split from the Church and formulated their own sometimes wild ideas, such as predestination by Calvinists. Ironically these Calvinists probably read the Scriptures and know them better than most others.

    Replies: @Ivashka the fool, @A123, @Another Polish Perspective, @RSDB

  158. @Ivashka the fool
    @AP

    I believe you are right about Mr Hack being a good Orthodox Christian. However, morality and ethics are not the monopoly of a certain creed. It is part and parcel of the deep, true, human nature. It is simply the best we have to offer as a species.

    It is not the religion that makes people good or bad. It is the opposite: a good person makes their religion better, a bad person makes their religion* worse.

    And one last thing, God is not religion. God is the ground of being, the beginning and the end to it all. God is impossible to describe or circumscribe into a human belief system.

    *(Although it is not a religion, I include Atheism among belief systems because one has to believe that there's no God to be an Atheist. There are moral and ethical people among the Atheists too. Varlam Shalamov was one of these.)

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @A123, @Mikel

    *(Although it is not a religion, I include Atheism among belief systems because one has to believe that there’s no God to be an Atheist.

    I concur.

    Atheists have faith that nothing is beyond.
    ___

    Is Wokeness a religion? A cult? Or, at least a belief system?

    It is driven by faith & dogma. Questioning the articles of “Woke Faith” is treated not unlike heresy and apostasy.

    The parallel is worth exploring.

    PEACE 😇

  159. @Barbarossa
    @AP

    I live in one of the very poorest counties in NY and I never lock my doors at all. I would say that my level of safety is extremely high, certainly much higher than a great many wealthier counties in the state.

    For what it's worth I would take some of the statistics with a grain of salt. A poor pervert may molest their family members but a rich one can go on a child sex vacation in Cambodia. A richer person can afford to more circumspect in these matters while the poor make less pretense about it.

    Alcoholism and hard drug addiction are very prevalent in the upper strata, it's not just the occasional glass of wine! Just look at Hollywood for evidence of that. Hollywood gets constant scrutiny from the tabloid angle, but the same stuff comes out periodically any time there is any expose of the upper class. Would you really argue that our societal decadence in not a top-down phenomenon?

    I'm not saying that either the rich or poor are worse, just that my own observation has been that the very worst personality traits are present in both groups. When the materially better off are callous and brutal they often veneer it in a very urbane way, but the effect is no less cruel than the desperate cruelty of a homeless man on the street. Society implicitly offers forgiveness to the former while condemning the latter, for the former is at least a "success" while the other is a "failure" in the great material game.

    Replies: @Ivashka the fool, @AP, @sudden death

    I believe you are correct. History is written by the victors and social norms are prescribed and enforced by the powerful. If a society is corrupt, it is because the powerful and rich are corrupt. As comrade Trotsky used to say ; “a fish always rots starting by its head”.

    The elites set the trends, the plebs follow according to their (lack of) understanding. And many a redneck I’ve known were way more humane and well behaved than wannabe Paris bobos (a most despicable type of human being). Basically, the redneck stereotypes presented in the Hollywood movies are a projection of elites’ perverted complex of superiority.

    Have no idea whether the Hood Coon stereotype of the inner city Negro is a similar projection. I haven’t known any of these types, but here again, the elites encourage a certain type of behavior in these people through gangster rap (or is it now trap house ?) music, fashion and group attitudes. Nothing good comes from any of these for anyone, but elite types who sign and promote these people make moneys out of their decay. And it allows to keep them disorganized and at each other’s throats, bringing their demographics down.

    Society is built to suit the rich. A sick society is built to suit the sick types of rich people.

  160. @Another Polish Perspective
    @AP


    What it sounds like to you is irrelevant. I supported what I wrote by only using Catholic and Orthodox sources.

     

    It is not irrelevant. Maybe you should try to find what your religion says in its entire complexity. When I was a child, I thought - judging from these thick missals in church - that the entire Bible is read within the liturgical year. But this is not true. A lot of Bible is never discussed in the church.
    It should also be worrying to you that you can be credibly - such is my opinion - taken for a Protestant.

    I supported what I wrote by only using Catholic and Orthodox sources.


     

    If you meant referring only to these books of Bible which are part of the Catholic and Orthodox canons, but are not included in the Protestant canon, you did not.

    What do you think I meant when I wrote “use of that wealth in accordance with faith?”
     
    The concept of faith is much broader than the concept of deeds. You could mean funding missions abroad (what Protestants like to do), or you could mean funding either reconstruction or construction of new, ornate church buildings (what the Orthodox and the Uniates like to do, at least judging from what I have seen in the pre-war Ukraine). But all that is not what St James meant. Well, he probably meant deeds generally as following Torah law (Letter of St James belongs to Judaeo-Christian part of NT), but as he did single out helping the destitute people in specific, we cannot have doubts concerning this particular verse of James 2:15-16.

    I have stated that Christianity has completely changed people and downstream of that, has fundamentally altered the nature of society.
     
    I wouldn't fully agree with that "Christianity has completely changed people" , since paganism partly merged with Christianity. Cult of St Mary is a clear infusion of Scripture-foreign spirituality to Christianity, which again would mean that there is a conflict between Christian cult and Scripture, a conflict which often resonates through that what you named

    using Biblical quotes out of context to support some point
     
    You can rarely be sure whether someone just proposes a new reading or tries to adopt Scripture to his position predetermined by his pagan-related concerns.

    Replies: @Another Polish Perspective, @AP

    The good example that Christianity as such does not change society much, is the Late Roman Empire. This state, before and after Constantine the Great, substantially did not change. Circa forty years after the Edict of Milan, Julian the Apostate wasn’t opposed by any Christian revolt or a Christian claimant to imperial throne.

    As for Calvin, I once read about his original theory. As soon as I have read about the fixed number of the chosen (circa 6000), I started suspecting him of some gnostic inspiration.

    • Replies: @Another Polish Perspective
    @Another Polish Perspective

    Some even see Calvinism as a form of Hinduism in that that it creates "spiritual castes" of the elect and the damned.

    http://www.examiningcalvinism.com/files/Complaints/Charge_Hinduism.html

    "I have always confronted Calvinists that their belief system is similar to Hinduism. Calvinism sets up a spiritual caste system. There are the haves and the have nots. Some Calvinists even treat the non-elect as the untouchables. They usually don’t like it when I say these things but it’s their belief system not mine....

    (...)

    One of the significant issues looming, is the question of why one person is born Calvinistically elect, while another person is born Calvinistically non-elect. Obviously in Hinduism, the same question applies. Why is one person born into a favored caste, while another is born into a slave caste, otherwise known as the “Untouchables.” The Hindu answer is “bad karma,” in paying for the sins of past lives (i.e. reincarnation). In contrast, Calvinism simply has no answer, other than arbitrary choice"

    , @S
    @Another Polish Perspective

    Gibbon famously blamed Christianity for the Fall of the Western Roman Empire, something he later regretted, as he took a lot of heat for it. However, most things, including empires, have a natural life cycle where at some point they will expire irregardless of externalities.


    The good example that Christianity as such does not change society much, is the Late Roman Empire. This state, before and after Constantine the Great, substantially did not change.
     
    One thing which doesn't appear to have changed too much was the Roman love of wine. In fact, the world's oldest still sealed bottle of wine, 4th century Roman vintage to be specific, and quite possibly bottled during Constantine's very lifetime, is the Speyer wine bottle.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speyer_wine_bottle

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/be/Roemerwein_in_Speyer.jpg/305px-Roemerwein_in_Speyer.jpg

    Replies: @Another Polish Perspective

  161. @Another Polish Perspective
    @Another Polish Perspective

    The good example that Christianity as such does not change society much, is the Late Roman Empire. This state, before and after Constantine the Great, substantially did not change. Circa forty years after the Edict of Milan, Julian the Apostate wasn't opposed by any Christian revolt or a Christian claimant to imperial throne.

    As for Calvin, I once read about his original theory. As soon as I have read about the fixed number of the chosen (circa 6000), I started suspecting him of some gnostic inspiration.

    Replies: @Another Polish Perspective, @S

    Some even see Calvinism as a form of Hinduism in that that it creates “spiritual castes” of the elect and the damned.

    http://www.examiningcalvinism.com/files/Complaints/Charge_Hinduism.html

    “I have always confronted Calvinists that their belief system is similar to Hinduism. Calvinism sets up a spiritual caste system. There are the haves and the have nots. Some Calvinists even treat the non-elect as the untouchables. They usually don’t like it when I say these things but it’s their belief system not mine….

    (…)

    One of the significant issues looming, is the question of why one person is born Calvinistically elect, while another person is born Calvinistically non-elect. Obviously in Hinduism, the same question applies. Why is one person born into a favored caste, while another is born into a slave caste, otherwise known as the “Untouchables.” The Hindu answer is “bad karma,” in paying for the sins of past lives (i.e. reincarnation). In contrast, Calvinism simply has no answer, other than arbitrary choice”

    • Agree: AP
  162. @Another Polish Perspective
    @AP


    What it sounds like to you is irrelevant. I supported what I wrote by only using Catholic and Orthodox sources.

     

    It is not irrelevant. Maybe you should try to find what your religion says in its entire complexity. When I was a child, I thought - judging from these thick missals in church - that the entire Bible is read within the liturgical year. But this is not true. A lot of Bible is never discussed in the church.
    It should also be worrying to you that you can be credibly - such is my opinion - taken for a Protestant.

    I supported what I wrote by only using Catholic and Orthodox sources.


     

    If you meant referring only to these books of Bible which are part of the Catholic and Orthodox canons, but are not included in the Protestant canon, you did not.

    What do you think I meant when I wrote “use of that wealth in accordance with faith?”
     
    The concept of faith is much broader than the concept of deeds. You could mean funding missions abroad (what Protestants like to do), or you could mean funding either reconstruction or construction of new, ornate church buildings (what the Orthodox and the Uniates like to do, at least judging from what I have seen in the pre-war Ukraine). But all that is not what St James meant. Well, he probably meant deeds generally as following Torah law (Letter of St James belongs to Judaeo-Christian part of NT), but as he did single out helping the destitute people in specific, we cannot have doubts concerning this particular verse of James 2:15-16.

    I have stated that Christianity has completely changed people and downstream of that, has fundamentally altered the nature of society.
     
    I wouldn't fully agree with that "Christianity has completely changed people" , since paganism partly merged with Christianity. Cult of St Mary is a clear infusion of Scripture-foreign spirituality to Christianity, which again would mean that there is a conflict between Christian cult and Scripture, a conflict which often resonates through that what you named

    using Biblical quotes out of context to support some point
     
    You can rarely be sure whether someone just proposes a new reading or tries to adopt Scripture to his position predetermined by his pagan-related concerns.

    Replies: @Another Polish Perspective, @AP

    It is not irrelevant. Maybe you should try to find what your religion says in its entire complexity

    It’s why I post from Catholic and Orthodox sources.

    It should also be worrying to you that you can be credibly – such is my opinion – taken for a Protestant

    You should rather question your assumptions when I literally post arguments from Orthodox and Catholic sources and thinkers and you accuse these arguments of Protestantism.

    The concept of faith is much broader than the concept of deeds. You could mean funding missions abroad (what Protestants like to do), or you could mean funding either reconstruction or construction of new, ornate church buildings (what the Orthodox and the Uniates like to do, at least judging from what I have seen in the pre-war Ukraine)

    Before the war we were collecting money for orphanages and schools in church.

    he did single out helping the destitute people in specific, we cannot have doubts concerning this particular verse of James 2:15-16.

    One of the things that upset AaronB was when I insisted that the destitute need to be removed from the streets and placed in rehab facilities or hospitals, and in the last case even prison if they are a danger to themselves or to other people and there is no other recourse.

    AaronB claimed that these poor and suffering people were some kind of righteous rebels against an evil society, compared them to ancient monks, and insisted that they should be left alone. Dmitry even compared my approach to Stalinism.

    I

    wouldn’t fully agree with that “Christianity has completely changed people” , since paganism partly merged with Christianity

    Compatible parts, sure. The contrast of a society that values strength and killing and builds arenas where people watch other people being slaughtered for entertainment, versus one that values mercy and kindness and builds public hospitals reflects the radical change in values.

    conflict between Christian cult and Scripture

    There is no conflict because Scripture can only be property understood as interpreted by the Church.

    Protestants decided to interpret Scripture on their own and based on their own interpretation split from the Church and formulated their own sometimes wild ideas, such as predestination by Calvinists. Ironically these Calvinists probably read the Scriptures and know them better than most others.

    • Replies: @Ivashka the fool
    @AP


    There is no conflict because Scripture can only be property understood as interpreted by the Church.
     
    And who will examine the doctors ?

    The Church has censored the early Christian scripture and has also had a period of purges about the metaphysics of Trinity. Then it split into Catholic and Orthodox, and again into Catholic and Protestant, with the later dissolving into a multitude of sects. During that time, the Orthodox got a conflict between the Uniate among them and the "true Orthodox" which in Russia have then undergone a bloody Raskol which can only be compared to a spiritual Civil War between the Nikonian Church and the Old Believers.

    Compared to this the history of the CPSU is a walk in the park.

    Are you certain that your priest in your Uniate Church has the right take on the message of Jesus ? That any priest in any Church has the right take ?

    I mean, just reading the Gospel of Thomas apocryphon makes one doubt the Church interpretation of some passages. And I don't even want to get into the role of Saint Paul (who has never met Jesus in his lifetime).

    Nothing human should be considered perfect. Despite whatever it preaches, Church is a human institution that is also subjected to corruption and decay.

    Replies: @AnonfromTN

    , @A123
    @AP


    You should rather question your assumptions when I literally post arguments from Orthodox and Catholic sources and thinkers and you accuse these arguments of Protestantism.
     
    As a Protestant, the defining characteristic is freedom to challenge dysfunctional church hierarchy. Especially the highest offices of the organization.

    If you are a Catholic and you speak out against the current failed Papacy, then you are a Protesting Catholic akin to Martin Luther. How much resistance makes one a Protestant, versus remaining a member of the original root organization?

    The big differences between Protestant and Catholic have little to do with personal behaviour. They are more about hierarchy and establishment. Many of the theoretically Protestant churches have become so structurally rigid and non-Biblical, they have recreated the problems that Martin Luther objected to.

    In many ways we need Protestant Schism II. The original has become soft and otherwise no longer works to the original goals. If a Protestant church sells the modern SJW equivalent of Indulgences, are they still properly Protestant? I would declare, "NO!"

    PEACE 😇
    , @Another Polish Perspective
    @AP


    It’s why I post from Catholic and Orthodox sources.
     
    St Clement is a low-level source, which cannot be authoritative. Anyway, what he says is rather common sense, which should make you aware how contentious the issue of riches was in early Church.

    Or maybe for you can be - but I myself would feel much more better if you could provide me with Scriptures quotations praising material wealth and its possession.

    Even if you quote some saints, that does not automatically makes you reasoning Catholic - for me, your stance reeks of some Protestantism, just being so judgemental, trying to build "God's city upon Earth" kind of, and through what I would call with the German word Aktionismus, a need to do sth for the sake of doing, without considering whether this doing is more good or more bad, eg. lockdowns.


    One of the things that upset AaronB was when I insisted that the destitute need to be removed from the streets and placed in rehab facilities or hospitals, and in the last case even prison if they are a danger to themselves or to other people and there is no other recourse.

    AaronB claimed that these poor and suffering people were some kind of righteous rebels against an evil society, compared them to ancient monks, and insisted that they should be left alone. Dmitry even compared my approach to Stalinism.
     

    I disagree with putting them in prison too lest they have committed a crime. You can offer them a choice of living in asylum if they like to, but they shouldn't be forced too. I seem them more as the unfortunate ones than rebels but certainly some of them are the latter. You do not have a right to force "charity" upon them - you don't want to deprive them such an important instrument of salvation as free will, do you?

    Your approach could be interpreted as pagan too, as it seems to be driven by the old Greek aristocratic morality of kalos kai agathos - of the beautiful and the good . Nowadays the expression of such morality are gated communities.

    You need to accept suffering before your eyes, and do not increase this suffering further like locking people down due to fear of possible crimes/crimes yet non-existent. Something likes that in Europe exists in Germany - it is called Sicherungsverwahrung - and it was introduced by Nazis, which kind of discredits for me the idea: they can keep you there in prison without limits after you official prison term just because they think you are "dangerous". Germany does this despite negative judgements of ECHR in Strasbourg.

    Certainly poor people on the streets can evoke a dissonance in the rich, but this dissonance helpfully will serve them as a reminder of the common human condition, and God's judgement upon everyone of us. Anyway, since charities have often become true businesses nowadays, I am wondering that if you don't want to rent a room for a poor, maybe you should invite one of them to your house...?
    In this way you would be forced to confront them as human beings primarily, the thing you seem to be yearning to avoid.
    I remember there was a Catholic foundation which fostered such things, even if with the disabled people...

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%27Arche

    Replies: @AP

    , @RSDB
    @AP


    It’s why I post from Catholic and Orthodox sources.

     

    Can you find a Catholic or Orthodox source that posits that the poor are worse people than the rich?

    Can you find a Catholic or Orthodox source which puts forward a method for the quantification of sinfulness?

    Canonized or beatified sources preferred, but not required.

    If you are not saying that, you should be aware that it is likely that impression of your meaning to which people are replying.


    As for public policy decisions, other people here, including you, are probably more qualified to discuss them than am I-- although that doesn't always stop me from opining. I primarily object here to using arguments from the relative quantified sinfulness of different groups of people.

    Replies: @Barbarossa, @AP

  163. I think it is already clear that America is not giving Ukraine what it needs to go linear offensive. Ukraine is being supplied for mounting a static battle of attrition. The US objective is a slow but sure writing down of Russian conventional capacity. Russia is actually quite happy to go slow, because their methods are infantry assault groups using low skill but highly expendable excons. The Russian offensive is already on, its low pressure to prevent Ukraine getting ATACMs, GLSDB, Gray Eagle, F16, and other things needed for deep strikes and exploitation such as Abrams.

    • Replies: @Greasy William
    @Sean

    It sounds like the West is going to supply Ukraine with advanced MBTs at some point. I don't see Ukraine as capable of achieving any sort of breakthrough, however, so likely this is to show that they are giving Ukraine what it "needs to win" even while the West knows that Ukraine can't achieve a military victory.

    What Ukraine needs is body armor, artillery, anti tank weapons, drones and air defense systems. Talk of tanks and F-16s is just a waste.

    Replies: @Wokechoke, @Sean

  164. @AP
    @Another Polish Perspective


    It is not irrelevant. Maybe you should try to find what your religion says in its entire complexity
     
    It’s why I post from Catholic and Orthodox sources.

    It should also be worrying to you that you can be credibly – such is my opinion – taken for a Protestant
     
    You should rather question your assumptions when I literally post arguments from Orthodox and Catholic sources and thinkers and you accuse these arguments of Protestantism.

    The concept of faith is much broader than the concept of deeds. You could mean funding missions abroad (what Protestants like to do), or you could mean funding either reconstruction or construction of new, ornate church buildings (what the Orthodox and the Uniates like to do, at least judging from what I have seen in the pre-war Ukraine)
     
    Before the war we were collecting money for orphanages and schools in church.

    he did single out helping the destitute people in specific, we cannot have doubts concerning this particular verse of James 2:15-16.
     
    One of the things that upset AaronB was when I insisted that the destitute need to be removed from the streets and placed in rehab facilities or hospitals, and in the last case even prison if they are a danger to themselves or to other people and there is no other recourse.

    AaronB claimed that these poor and suffering people were some kind of righteous rebels against an evil society, compared them to ancient monks, and insisted that they should be left alone. Dmitry even compared my approach to Stalinism.

    I

    wouldn’t fully agree with that “Christianity has completely changed people” , since paganism partly merged with Christianity
     
    Compatible parts, sure. The contrast of a society that values strength and killing and builds arenas where people watch other people being slaughtered for entertainment, versus one that values mercy and kindness and builds public hospitals reflects the radical change in values.

    conflict between Christian cult and Scripture
     
    There is no conflict because Scripture can only be property understood as interpreted by the Church.

    Protestants decided to interpret Scripture on their own and based on their own interpretation split from the Church and formulated their own sometimes wild ideas, such as predestination by Calvinists. Ironically these Calvinists probably read the Scriptures and know them better than most others.

    Replies: @Ivashka the fool, @A123, @Another Polish Perspective, @RSDB

    There is no conflict because Scripture can only be property understood as interpreted by the Church.

    And who will examine the doctors ?

    The Church has censored the early Christian scripture and has also had a period of purges about the metaphysics of Trinity. Then it split into Catholic and Orthodox, and again into Catholic and Protestant, with the later dissolving into a multitude of sects. During that time, the Orthodox got a conflict between the Uniate among them and the “true Orthodox” which in Russia have then undergone a bloody Raskol which can only be compared to a spiritual Civil War between the Nikonian Church and the Old Believers.

    Compared to this the history of the CPSU is a walk in the park.

    Are you certain that your priest in your Uniate Church has the right take on the message of Jesus ? That any priest in any Church has the right take ?

    I mean, just reading the Gospel of Thomas apocryphon makes one doubt the Church interpretation of some passages. And I don’t even want to get into the role of Saint Paul (who has never met Jesus in his lifetime).

    Nothing human should be considered perfect. Despite whatever it preaches, Church is a human institution that is also subjected to corruption and decay.

    • Agree: Mikel, AnonfromTN
    • Replies: @AnonfromTN
    @Ivashka the fool

    I know it sounds atheist, but in reality it’s agnostic: there are too many gods to take them seriously.

    Replies: @Another Polish Perspective

  165. @AP
    @Another Polish Perspective


    It is not irrelevant. Maybe you should try to find what your religion says in its entire complexity
     
    It’s why I post from Catholic and Orthodox sources.

    It should also be worrying to you that you can be credibly – such is my opinion – taken for a Protestant
     
    You should rather question your assumptions when I literally post arguments from Orthodox and Catholic sources and thinkers and you accuse these arguments of Protestantism.

    The concept of faith is much broader than the concept of deeds. You could mean funding missions abroad (what Protestants like to do), or you could mean funding either reconstruction or construction of new, ornate church buildings (what the Orthodox and the Uniates like to do, at least judging from what I have seen in the pre-war Ukraine)
     
    Before the war we were collecting money for orphanages and schools in church.

    he did single out helping the destitute people in specific, we cannot have doubts concerning this particular verse of James 2:15-16.
     
    One of the things that upset AaronB was when I insisted that the destitute need to be removed from the streets and placed in rehab facilities or hospitals, and in the last case even prison if they are a danger to themselves or to other people and there is no other recourse.

    AaronB claimed that these poor and suffering people were some kind of righteous rebels against an evil society, compared them to ancient monks, and insisted that they should be left alone. Dmitry even compared my approach to Stalinism.

    I

    wouldn’t fully agree with that “Christianity has completely changed people” , since paganism partly merged with Christianity
     
    Compatible parts, sure. The contrast of a society that values strength and killing and builds arenas where people watch other people being slaughtered for entertainment, versus one that values mercy and kindness and builds public hospitals reflects the radical change in values.

    conflict between Christian cult and Scripture
     
    There is no conflict because Scripture can only be property understood as interpreted by the Church.

    Protestants decided to interpret Scripture on their own and based on their own interpretation split from the Church and formulated their own sometimes wild ideas, such as predestination by Calvinists. Ironically these Calvinists probably read the Scriptures and know them better than most others.

    Replies: @Ivashka the fool, @A123, @Another Polish Perspective, @RSDB

    You should rather question your assumptions when I literally post arguments from Orthodox and Catholic sources and thinkers and you accuse these arguments of Protestantism.

    As a Protestant, the defining characteristic is freedom to challenge dysfunctional church hierarchy. Especially the highest offices of the organization.

    If you are a Catholic and you speak out against the current failed Papacy, then you are a Protesting Catholic akin to Martin Luther. How much resistance makes one a Protestant, versus remaining a member of the original root organization?

    The big differences between Protestant and Catholic have little to do with personal behaviour. They are more about hierarchy and establishment. Many of the theoretically Protestant churches have become so structurally rigid and non-Biblical, they have recreated the problems that Martin Luther objected to.

    In many ways we need Protestant Schism II. The original has become soft and otherwise no longer works to the original goals. If a Protestant church sells the modern SJW equivalent of Indulgences, are they still properly Protestant? I would declare, “NO!”

    PEACE 😇

  166. @Barbarossa
    @AP

    I live in one of the very poorest counties in NY and I never lock my doors at all. I would say that my level of safety is extremely high, certainly much higher than a great many wealthier counties in the state.

    For what it's worth I would take some of the statistics with a grain of salt. A poor pervert may molest their family members but a rich one can go on a child sex vacation in Cambodia. A richer person can afford to more circumspect in these matters while the poor make less pretense about it.

    Alcoholism and hard drug addiction are very prevalent in the upper strata, it's not just the occasional glass of wine! Just look at Hollywood for evidence of that. Hollywood gets constant scrutiny from the tabloid angle, but the same stuff comes out periodically any time there is any expose of the upper class. Would you really argue that our societal decadence in not a top-down phenomenon?

    I'm not saying that either the rich or poor are worse, just that my own observation has been that the very worst personality traits are present in both groups. When the materially better off are callous and brutal they often veneer it in a very urbane way, but the effect is no less cruel than the desperate cruelty of a homeless man on the street. Society implicitly offers forgiveness to the former while condemning the latter, for the former is at least a "success" while the other is a "failure" in the great material game.

    Replies: @Ivashka the fool, @AP, @sudden death

    I live in one of the very poorest counties in NY and I never lock my doors at all. I would say that my level of safety is extremely high, certainly much higher than a great many wealthier counties in the state

    I suspect that your area’s stats might be artificially low because of a lot of Amish being off the grid. Also, some of the wealthy areas have poor living in close proximity to rich, whereas you guys are living on farms.

    For what it’s worth I would take some of the statistics with a grain of salt. A poor pervert may molest their family members but a rich one can go on a child sex vacation in Cambodia. A richer person can afford to more circumspect in these matters while the poor make less pretense about it.

    On the other hand, rich people don’t tolerate crime and have the means to get criminals arrested. So more crimes are probably reports and registered in rich or middle class areas than in poor areas.

    Do you really think there is a comparable level of crime in a WV trailer park as there is in a prosperous New England village? Setting aside the issue of race, Charles Murray wrote an entire book simply comparing poor versus wealthy Whites; the differences were really stark. It is sad and unfortunate that the wealthy have too often chosen to abandon the poor to their fate.

    Alcoholism and hard drug addiction are very prevalent in the upper strata

    It certainly exists, but is not as prevalent as among the poor.

    Would you really argue that our societal decadence in not a top-down phenomenon?

    It’s a bottom up phenomenon, in that the top no longer encourage the poor to live by the top’s correct moral code (even though they themselves have not abandoned it). About half of poor Whites have kids out of wedlock, IIRC only 20% of prosperous Whites do. So how does this come from the top? The problem with the top is that it has become too passive and tolerant. The poor aren’t encouraged to try to act like the middle and upper classes, unless they are poor people like rappers who have managed to get a lot of money while retaining their poor morals. AaronB who idolizes the poor is an extreme example.

    When the materially better off are callous and brutal they often veneer it in a very urbane way

    This is because we live in a society that is generally good and, as a consequence, cruelty and brutality are looked down upon and those who engage in it try to hide it.

    • Replies: @Barbarossa
    @AP


    in that the top no longer encourage the poor to live by the top’s correct moral code
     
    You sincerely think that the top in the US has a correct moral code?

    I think that in many ways you are conflating exterior social order with morality. You can have the former without the latter.

    I did look through your stats from your January 20th post since I had checked out for a while. I find myself unconvinced.

    Sure, heroin use is more prevalent among the poor but that is because heroin is cheap. The upper class is abusing prescription pills. One of the markers of the opioid crisis is its' even distribution across class.

    Divorce rate across profession is not an accurate indicator of morality. If infidelity is rampant then what does the "intact" marriage signify but a status marker?

    Richer people may also be less obese because they can afford personal trainers, liposuction, and the time necessary to obsess and take action over their appearance. They could be equally gluttonous but also be mastered by the sins of pride and vanity.

    The study on youthful sexual offenders is clear that the driving dynamic are dysfunctional families and substance abuse, which correlates to socioeconomic status but which is not primary. To reiterate my point, richer people who commit such crimes have broad resources to hush it up and keep it from being prosecuted and are thus excluded from such statistics. People in foster care or the larger social system are more likely be found out in such crimes than in closer knit families who may internally cover up such abuse, skewing the statistics in predictable ways.

    And naturally enough rich people are going to be particularly less likely to commit violent crimes than poor people. There is too much to lose in committing such crimes and society doesn't give the free pass on violent crime to someone of means than it does to "white collar" crimes. Violent crimes are usually committed by those who feel they have little to lose.

    In any case, what Jesus preached about was not an order of social norms, but a morality that transcends that. As He said, we are called to live in Spirit and in Truth. If Jesus was invested in maintaining propriety he would have sided with the Pharisees.

    This is not to say that all dismantling of social order is good, far from it. Most revolutions set up more terror than they root out. However, I find it incredible that you seem to find our modern day social and class order to be a source of unqualified good. As Jesus also said, can a good tree give bad fruit and a bad tree good fruit?

    I also find it ludicrous to believe that the morals of our society is driven in a bottom up direction. Decadence has always historically stemmed from the upper classes. It is only mass media and the increased disposable wealth of the industrial age which has allowed decadence to become an actionable prospect for the lower and middle classes.

    I would actually argue that both the sinful in the lower and upper classes are behaving in an impeccably moral way...according to the twisted ethics of the spirit of our age. Lust, greed, gluttony etc. are being pushed from every angle in popular culture. If trailer dwellers act like low rent Kardashians than it's no wonder. They have the same moral compass. The Kardashians just have the accolades of society because they made it big.
  167. @AP
    @Another Polish Perspective


    It is not irrelevant. Maybe you should try to find what your religion says in its entire complexity
     
    It’s why I post from Catholic and Orthodox sources.

    It should also be worrying to you that you can be credibly – such is my opinion – taken for a Protestant
     
    You should rather question your assumptions when I literally post arguments from Orthodox and Catholic sources and thinkers and you accuse these arguments of Protestantism.

    The concept of faith is much broader than the concept of deeds. You could mean funding missions abroad (what Protestants like to do), or you could mean funding either reconstruction or construction of new, ornate church buildings (what the Orthodox and the Uniates like to do, at least judging from what I have seen in the pre-war Ukraine)
     
    Before the war we were collecting money for orphanages and schools in church.

    he did single out helping the destitute people in specific, we cannot have doubts concerning this particular verse of James 2:15-16.
     
    One of the things that upset AaronB was when I insisted that the destitute need to be removed from the streets and placed in rehab facilities or hospitals, and in the last case even prison if they are a danger to themselves or to other people and there is no other recourse.

    AaronB claimed that these poor and suffering people were some kind of righteous rebels against an evil society, compared them to ancient monks, and insisted that they should be left alone. Dmitry even compared my approach to Stalinism.

    I

    wouldn’t fully agree with that “Christianity has completely changed people” , since paganism partly merged with Christianity
     
    Compatible parts, sure. The contrast of a society that values strength and killing and builds arenas where people watch other people being slaughtered for entertainment, versus one that values mercy and kindness and builds public hospitals reflects the radical change in values.

    conflict between Christian cult and Scripture
     
    There is no conflict because Scripture can only be property understood as interpreted by the Church.

    Protestants decided to interpret Scripture on their own and based on their own interpretation split from the Church and formulated their own sometimes wild ideas, such as predestination by Calvinists. Ironically these Calvinists probably read the Scriptures and know them better than most others.

    Replies: @Ivashka the fool, @A123, @Another Polish Perspective, @RSDB

    It’s why I post from Catholic and Orthodox sources.

    St Clement is a low-level source, which cannot be authoritative. Anyway, what he says is rather common sense, which should make you aware how contentious the issue of riches was in early Church.

    Or maybe for you can be – but I myself would feel much more better if you could provide me with Scriptures quotations praising material wealth and its possession.

    Even if you quote some saints, that does not automatically makes you reasoning Catholic – for me, your stance reeks of some Protestantism, just being so judgemental, trying to build “God’s city upon Earth” kind of, and through what I would call with the German word Aktionismus, a need to do sth for the sake of doing, without considering whether this doing is more good or more bad, eg. lockdowns.

    One of the things that upset AaronB was when I insisted that the destitute need to be removed from the streets and placed in rehab facilities or hospitals, and in the last case even prison if they are a danger to themselves or to other people and there is no other recourse.

    AaronB claimed that these poor and suffering people were some kind of righteous rebels against an evil society, compared them to ancient monks, and insisted that they should be left alone. Dmitry even compared my approach to Stalinism.

    I disagree with putting them in prison too lest they have committed a crime. You can offer them a choice of living in asylum if they like to, but they shouldn’t be forced too. I seem them more as the unfortunate ones than rebels but certainly some of them are the latter. You do not have a right to force “charity” upon them – you don’t want to deprive them such an important instrument of salvation as free will, do you?

    Your approach could be interpreted as pagan too, as it seems to be driven by the old Greek aristocratic morality of kalos kai agathos – of the beautiful and the good . Nowadays the expression of such morality are gated communities.

    You need to accept suffering before your eyes, and do not increase this suffering further like locking people down due to fear of possible crimes/crimes yet non-existent. Something likes that in Europe exists in Germany – it is called Sicherungsverwahrung – and it was introduced by Nazis, which kind of discredits for me the idea: they can keep you there in prison without limits after you official prison term just because they think you are “dangerous”. Germany does this despite negative judgements of ECHR in Strasbourg.

    Certainly poor people on the streets can evoke a dissonance in the rich, but this dissonance helpfully will serve them as a reminder of the common human condition, and God’s judgement upon everyone of us. Anyway, since charities have often become true businesses nowadays, I am wondering that if you don’t want to rent a room for a poor, maybe you should invite one of them to your house…?
    In this way you would be forced to confront them as human beings primarily, the thing you seem to be yearning to avoid.
    I remember there was a Catholic foundation which fostered such things, even if with the disabled people…

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%27Arche

    • Replies: @AP
    @Another Polish Perspective


    St Clement is a low-level source [about wealth], which cannot be authoritative
     
    He’s cited as the authority about wealth by both Catholic and Orthodox sources (I had posted the links earlier).

    Or maybe for you can be – but I myself would feel much more better if you could provide me with Scriptures quotations praising material wealth and its possession
     
    Wealth is neither praiseworthy nor worthy of condemnation. The Church teaches that what matters is how it is used.

    Here is a detailed discussion from a Catholic source:

    https://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=2944

    Even if you quote some saints, that does not automatically makes you reasoning Catholic – for me, your stance reeks of some Protestantism
     
    I quote saints and opinions from Orthodox and Catholic thinkers, not Protestant ones. If for you this reeks of Protestantism I suggest that you review your understanding of Catholicism and Orthodoxy.

    I disagree with putting them [homeless] in prison too lest they have committed a crime

     

    Even if they have committed crimes they should be provided with rehab or hospitals first, but if those don’t work then prison is a last resort. Of course people who don’t commit crimes should not be incarcerated. It this is rare among homeless, petty theft is imminent among them, prostitution, selling drugs, buying drugs, trespassing, etc.

    What is wrong is to allow them to just wallow in sin and suffering in the streets.

    You do not have a right to force “charity” upon them – you don’t want to deprive them such an important instrument of salvation as free will, do you?
     
    A similar argument was used by American progressives to empty the psychiatric hospitals. This was very sad.

    Do you think that the Church’s opposition to assisted suicide deprives people of free will also?

    in Germany – it is called Sicherungsverwahrung – and it was introduced by Nazis, which kind of discredits for me the idea: they can keep you there in prison without limits after you official prison term just because they think you are “dangerous”
     
    Sounds like sensible policy. Nazis also were the first to limit public smoking in order to prevent second hand smoke; despite their evil in other areas they weren’t bad for public health.

    Certainly poor people on the streets can evoke a dissonance in the rich, but this dissonance helpfully will serve them as a reminder of the common human condition
     
    You don’t think that it is sick to allow such suffering of human beings, so that it can serve as a reminder to others?

    “We’ll let you sleep in the streets and will look the other way as you rob your peers or engage in petty theft to support the heroin habit that has already given you Hep C and HIV because we value your free will, your freedom and because your life will serve us as a reminder of the human condition.”

    This is the kind of cruel decadence of AaronBs and California bureaucrats.

    I am wondering that if you don’t want to rent a room for a poor, maybe you should invite one of them to your house…?
    In this way you would be forced to confront them as human beings primarily, the thing you seem to be yearning to avoid.
     
    I suspect that I know far more poor people far better then you or anyone you have ever met. I know their stories, their families, etc. (I worked at an urban hospital and still consult at a clinic and take time talking to patients).

    Replies: @Another Polish Perspective

  168. @Another Polish Perspective
    @Another Polish Perspective

    The good example that Christianity as such does not change society much, is the Late Roman Empire. This state, before and after Constantine the Great, substantially did not change. Circa forty years after the Edict of Milan, Julian the Apostate wasn't opposed by any Christian revolt or a Christian claimant to imperial throne.

    As for Calvin, I once read about his original theory. As soon as I have read about the fixed number of the chosen (circa 6000), I started suspecting him of some gnostic inspiration.

    Replies: @Another Polish Perspective, @S

    Gibbon famously blamed Christianity for the Fall of the Western Roman Empire, something he later regretted, as he took a lot of heat for it. However, most things, including empires, have a natural life cycle where at some point they will expire irregardless of externalities.

    The good example that Christianity as such does not change society much, is the Late Roman Empire. This state, before and after Constantine the Great, substantially did not change.

    One thing which doesn’t appear to have changed too much was the Roman love of wine. In fact, the world’s oldest still sealed bottle of wine, 4th century Roman vintage to be specific, and quite possibly bottled during Constantine’s very lifetime, is the Speyer wine bottle.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speyer_wine_bottle

    [MORE]

    • Replies: @Another Polish Perspective
    @S

    Well, I share the opinion that The Roman Empire was put to its deathbed by losing the battle of Hadrianople by ironically, East emperor, Valens. After the battle, Goths has never crossed Danube back again, thus erasing the Danube limes, roaming Balkans, and hampering East-West land communication. Another point of reference is the Vandal invasion of Africa, which cut off African grain from Italy.

    The problem with Christianity was that it started to create kind of parallel administration, bishops sometimes becoming leaders of cities. Theodosius made Christianity a state church to bind it with a state. Nevertheless, that was relatively minor problem, since local city leaders were generally pro-Roman, weren't independent forces, and thus they weren't in position to really negotiate either with Roman armies or the Gothic ones.

  169. @Barbarossa
    @AP

    I live in one of the very poorest counties in NY and I never lock my doors at all. I would say that my level of safety is extremely high, certainly much higher than a great many wealthier counties in the state.

    For what it's worth I would take some of the statistics with a grain of salt. A poor pervert may molest their family members but a rich one can go on a child sex vacation in Cambodia. A richer person can afford to more circumspect in these matters while the poor make less pretense about it.

    Alcoholism and hard drug addiction are very prevalent in the upper strata, it's not just the occasional glass of wine! Just look at Hollywood for evidence of that. Hollywood gets constant scrutiny from the tabloid angle, but the same stuff comes out periodically any time there is any expose of the upper class. Would you really argue that our societal decadence in not a top-down phenomenon?

    I'm not saying that either the rich or poor are worse, just that my own observation has been that the very worst personality traits are present in both groups. When the materially better off are callous and brutal they often veneer it in a very urbane way, but the effect is no less cruel than the desperate cruelty of a homeless man on the street. Society implicitly offers forgiveness to the former while condemning the latter, for the former is at least a "success" while the other is a "failure" in the great material game.

    Replies: @Ivashka the fool, @AP, @sudden death

    I live in one of the very poorest counties in NY and I never lock my doors at all.

    Just have in mind that once in a blue moon by freak chance accidents also can happen as sadly you never know all the time who may be roaming around:

    Two weeks later, he attempted to enter the home of a woman, but because her doors were locked, he walked away. Chase later told detectives that he took locked doors as a sign that he was not welcome, but unlocked doors were an invitation to come inside.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Chase

    • Thanks: Barbarossa
    • Replies: @songbird
    @sudden death

    When I was in college, I once had a Nigerian roommate.

    Got into a heated argument with him one day because he never locked the door, when we were both out. He said that he wanted the door to be open, so that his friends could borrow stuff (like a cooking pot) anytime they liked. He also said that my stuff was sh-ttier, which was objectively true, though it was still worth a lot of easy money (even just the books alone) - it was harder to carry.

    Surprise, surprise, he had his very expensive Apple laptop stolen one day. (Didn't say anything, just enjoyed my Schadenfreude) Heard him telling his African friend that America is different than were they live in Nigeria (which puzzled and surprised me, but I think it has something to do with a lot of relatives and neighbors being around all the time, watching things).

    Anyway, I completely agree with you. We all like to live in a neighborhood where we don't have to lock the door, but not sure there is any actual utility to keeping your door unlocked, especially if you have a doorbell - if not easy to get one.

    I can think of a lot of horror stories from people not locking their doors, and I do actually know several people that had home intruders, while they were in their houses. Luckily, only thieves. But there is some really bone-chilling stuff out there. Maybe, it is very rare, but I'd like Barbarossa to lock his doors at night.

    Replies: @Yahya

  170. @Thulean Friend
    @songbird


    Only Sikh Majority Punjab India Has a High Chance of Becoming Sikh Minority in next 20 yrs
     
    At first glance, this seemed improbable but the Indian census seems to back it up.

    https://i.imgur.com/YHQqFRt.png

    The 2010s saw a *massive* emigration wave out of Punjab, often Sikhs to Canada. The Indian 2023 census should probably still show a slight Sikh majority but the 2030s could very well be when they fall into absolute minority status, even before Whites in America.

    Given this background, his racebaiting is almost comical. He already belongs to a stateless people. Now on the cusp of becoming minorities in their historic homeland. Impossible to take clowns like that seriously given their own precarious position(s).


    To be frank, I wouldn't spend too much time on either singh or yahya. Neither is particularly intelligent and both are aggrieved by racial inferiority complex. FWIW, if you have a Twitter acc or a Telegram acc I would be interested in following it. This blog is probably slowly dying anyway. If I wanted to read some 3rd worlder's /pol/tard take I could just go to the original source.

    Replies: @Yahya, @songbird

    To be frank, I wouldn’t spend too much time on either singh or yahya.

    Honestly, I do find Singh’s occasional crudities distasteful. But I have always gotten the idea with him that it was nothing personal, that he simply enjoys contention and trolling. In another age, perhaps, he would be taunting (probably mooning) us on the battlefield, while brandishing his sword.

    [MORE]

    Perhaps, yahya would say the same of himself, but he seems more like a negative stereotype, hot-blooded and nursing a grudge forever. With him, it does seem personal, he seems to weirdly interpret everything as a personal insult (whether or not it even touches on Arabs), and I do think you are right, that it is tied to some inferiority complex. (And I would specifically say narcissism. Maybe, encouraged by his sense of entitlement due to class)

    There is this idea that having old ruins can stultify a civilization, by encouraging people to get lost in old glories. Our old friend under the new avatar, HMS, mentioned Burton. I recall that Burton wrote that proper Arabs used to scornfully call Egyptians “Children of the Pharaoh.”

    Imagine that was because they couldn’t claim the same heritage, but yahya is of both sides. It gets a little ridiculous because you enter into geo-determinism, not to mention the cold math of it. At 4600 years, I’d speculate that even the East Asian commentors are descended from the pharoahs. Of course, DNA is something different, but, in fact, we are all of us lucky not to be born into the severely inbred royalty of ancient Egypt.

    The 2010s saw a *massive* emigration wave out of Punjab, often Sikhs to Canada.

    Am fascinated by the movement of Sikhs. Only guessed it, but if I understand correctly, it is because they get some sort of priority status as “refugees.” (Did Sher Singh or his parents get this status? And wouldn’t it be at odds with the style of his posting?)

    Am ignorant about the local conditions, but it seems like a scam to me. (Are Sikhs really threatened? Would guess not.) Fascinating to contemplate. Why the priority status? Seemingly because they are a novelty, a small minority of Indians. Maybe, refugee regulations are built on a conception of the highest value being assigned to individuals, rather than groups, but it still seems like a great irony that they are weakening this exotic and unique group and helping turn them into a minority in their historic homelands.

    It is easy to perceive that cultural harm is done on both sides.

    FWIW, if you have a Twitter acc or a Telegram acc I would be interested in following it.

    Afraid I do all my sh-tposting here.

    Don’t feel scholarly enough to post to Twitter or Telegram. And while I enjoy trying to make jokes, I feel like the freebooting era of twitter is over (despite Musk), and a lot of my favorite, humorous characters on it (and there were some ingenious ones), were never welcomed back, after being banned.

    Heard also that Thomas777 was banned from Telegram, so it doesn’t seem to be a completely free platform either. No idea why he was banned, but I can somewhat guess. (something to do with the J-question)

    • Replies: @Sher Singh
    @songbird

    No refugee status or 'historic homeland in which you become a minority'. Not going to bother debunking or contextualizing the percentages & tfr data.

    Remember that Thulean supports the BJP and is angry at the repeated political defeats it's faced.

    At the hands of Sikhs no less.

    Will say that Sikh tfr is likely higher than Hindu & possibly Muslim when controlling for socioeconomic status, but anything below 5 is nothing to write home about.

    ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫਤਿਹ

    Replies: @A123

  171. @Emil Nikola Richard
    @Yahya

    Be sure to stop by reddit and give this one an up vote:

    https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/10jsrav/when_did_irish_men_stop_sucking_each_others/

    Replies: @songbird

    Most likely a metaphor or a mistranslation.

    I’ve read large parts of different Irish annals, and it is quite easy to perceive that there were some mistakes in translation, even though they were written by scholarly people.

    • Replies: @Emil Nikola Richard
    @songbird

    THANK YOU FOR CLEARING THAT UP!!!!

    Replies: @songbird

  172. @songbird
    @Emil Nikola Richard

    Most likely a metaphor or a mistranslation.

    I've read large parts of different Irish annals, and it is quite easy to perceive that there were some mistakes in translation, even though they were written by scholarly people.

    Replies: @Emil Nikola Richard

    THANK YOU FOR CLEARING THAT UP!!!!

    • Replies: @songbird
    @Emil Nikola Richard

    Some bog body somewhere with its nipples cut off. To state the obvious - the Comanches did that sort of stuff, but it is doubtful that they licked each other's nipples. Rather, they ate them.

    As far as I know, only one written source refers to it. It's to do with St. Patrick. Some have stated this was calumny, but my own interpretation is that the language was influenced by pastoralism, and Patrick was trying to use the native idiom, and simply found something sacrilegious or inconvenient about making an oath to a man.

    What I think we can say for certain is that it was a highly patriarchal, warrior society, where long-bearded nobles were swathed in yards and yards of cumbersome and expensive (at least in those parts) fabric, and probably wouldn't be undressing easily.

    But, if you are a fetishist and seeking other spurious excerpts from moldy medieval Irish manuscripts that may or may not refer to nipples - and here I must specify, am afraid it will have to be heterosexual (or, at least if you like MILFs) - then I would call your attention to the following passage, from the year 1451:

    [First, some necessary background, for plot: that year there was terrible famine in the land, and years afterward, it was called the "Summer of Slight Acquaintance" for friends and relatives commonly denied each other the gift of hospitality.

    Anyway, this broad called Mairghréag Ní Chearbhaill and my probable ancestress (that is, at least I connect to her husband) held two great feasts, one in the western part of the clan territory, and one in the eastern part, in order to facilitate people traveling to it, from allover Ireland. And this event was remembered many years afterward. It is a rather lengthy passage, but to jump to the good stuff...]


    ...and Margrett on the garrettes of the greate church of Da Sinceall, clad in cloth of gold, her dearest friends about her, her clergy and Judges too, Calvagh himself [her husband] being on horseback on the churches outward side, to the end, that all things be done orderly, and each one served successively; and first of all she gave two chalices of gold as offerings that day to the Alter of God Almighty, and she also caused to nurse [Wowsa! Wowsa! Wowsa!] or foster two young orphans. But so it was that we never saw nor heard the like of that day, nor comparable to its glory [Wowsa! Wowsa! Wowsa!] or solace [Huh?]
     
    Better satisfy yourself with that because it is all I got.

    Personally, I doubt that she actually put two babes to her breasts, from a churchtower, but who knows? If you ever build a time machine, or steal one like elderly Biff Tannen in Back to the Future 2, you can find out. Maybe, it was some pagan survival - there was another famous noblewoman knicknamed the "Mother of Munster."

    Anyway, you can read the whole passage here, if you want more... er... plot, begins at the entry for 1451:
    https://archive.org/details/miscellanyofiris00iris/page/227/mode/1up
  173. @Wokechoke
    https://twitter.com/stephglinski/status/1615727805056143360?s=20&t=cjJgwVPCgsbwt4iuePYbxQ

    Is Glinski a Lithuanian aristocratic name? One of the patronymic of Ivan Grozny’s ancestors? The the article this dyke recommends killing grandma.

    Replies: @Mikhail

    Reggie Meezer
    @ReggieMeezer
    On Ukrainian social networks there are many videos of the forced mobilization that the Ukrainian policemen together with the officials of the recruiting offices are carrying out on the street,using military weapons, forcing citizens to become cannon fodder for the Zelensky regime

    [MORE]

  174. @S
    @Another Polish Perspective

    Gibbon famously blamed Christianity for the Fall of the Western Roman Empire, something he later regretted, as he took a lot of heat for it. However, most things, including empires, have a natural life cycle where at some point they will expire irregardless of externalities.


    The good example that Christianity as such does not change society much, is the Late Roman Empire. This state, before and after Constantine the Great, substantially did not change.
     
    One thing which doesn't appear to have changed too much was the Roman love of wine. In fact, the world's oldest still sealed bottle of wine, 4th century Roman vintage to be specific, and quite possibly bottled during Constantine's very lifetime, is the Speyer wine bottle.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speyer_wine_bottle

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/be/Roemerwein_in_Speyer.jpg/305px-Roemerwein_in_Speyer.jpg

    Replies: @Another Polish Perspective

    Well, I share the opinion that The Roman Empire was put to its deathbed by losing the battle of Hadrianople by ironically, East emperor, Valens. After the battle, Goths has never crossed Danube back again, thus erasing the Danube limes, roaming Balkans, and hampering East-West land communication. Another point of reference is the Vandal invasion of Africa, which cut off African grain from Italy.

    The problem with Christianity was that it started to create kind of parallel administration, bishops sometimes becoming leaders of cities. Theodosius made Christianity a state church to bind it with a state. Nevertheless, that was relatively minor problem, since local city leaders were generally pro-Roman, weren’t independent forces, and thus they weren’t in position to really negotiate either with Roman armies or the Gothic ones.

    • Thanks: S
  175. @sudden death
    @Barbarossa


    I live in one of the very poorest counties in NY and I never lock my doors at all.

     

    Just have in mind that once in a blue moon by freak chance accidents also can happen as sadly you never know all the time who may be roaming around:

    Two weeks later, he attempted to enter the home of a woman, but because her doors were locked, he walked away. Chase later told detectives that he took locked doors as a sign that he was not welcome, but unlocked doors were an invitation to come inside.
     
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Chase

    Replies: @songbird

    When I was in college, I once had a Nigerian roommate.

    [MORE]

    Got into a heated argument with him one day because he never locked the door, when we were both out. He said that he wanted the door to be open, so that his friends could borrow stuff (like a cooking pot) anytime they liked. He also said that my stuff was sh-ttier, which was objectively true, though it was still worth a lot of easy money (even just the books alone) – it was harder to carry.

    Surprise, surprise, he had his very expensive Apple laptop stolen one day. (Didn’t say anything, just enjoyed my Schadenfreude) Heard him telling his African friend that America is different than were they live in Nigeria (which puzzled and surprised me, but I think it has something to do with a lot of relatives and neighbors being around all the time, watching things).

    Anyway, I completely agree with you. We all like to live in a neighborhood where we don’t have to lock the door, but not sure there is any actual utility to keeping your door unlocked, especially if you have a doorbell – if not easy to get one.

    I can think of a lot of horror stories from people not locking their doors, and I do actually know several people that had home intruders, while they were in their houses. Luckily, only thieves. But there is some really bone-chilling stuff out there. Maybe, it is very rare, but I’d like Barbarossa to lock his doors at night.

    • Agree: Ivashka the fool
    • Replies: @Yahya
    @songbird


    When I was in college, I once had a Nigerian roommate.
     
    Could this be the fellow who beat you and lodged a permanent chip on your shoulder re, blacks?

    Would explain a lot of your odd comments over the years.

  176. @AP
    @Barbarossa


    I live in one of the very poorest counties in NY and I never lock my doors at all. I would say that my level of safety is extremely high, certainly much higher than a great many wealthier counties in the state
     
    I suspect that your area’s stats might be artificially low because of a lot of Amish being off the grid. Also, some of the wealthy areas have poor living in close proximity to rich, whereas you guys are living on farms.

    For what it’s worth I would take some of the statistics with a grain of salt. A poor pervert may molest their family members but a rich one can go on a child sex vacation in Cambodia. A richer person can afford to more circumspect in these matters while the poor make less pretense about it.

     

    On the other hand, rich people don’t tolerate crime and have the means to get criminals arrested. So more crimes are probably reports and registered in rich or middle class areas than in poor areas.

    Do you really think there is a comparable level of crime in a WV trailer park as there is in a prosperous New England village? Setting aside the issue of race, Charles Murray wrote an entire book simply comparing poor versus wealthy Whites; the differences were really stark. It is sad and unfortunate that the wealthy have too often chosen to abandon the poor to their fate.

    Alcoholism and hard drug addiction are very prevalent in the upper strata
     
    It certainly exists, but is not as prevalent as among the poor.

    Would you really argue that our societal decadence in not a top-down phenomenon?
     
    It’s a bottom up phenomenon, in that the top no longer encourage the poor to live by the top’s correct moral code (even though they themselves have not abandoned it). About half of poor Whites have kids out of wedlock, IIRC only 20% of prosperous Whites do. So how does this come from the top? The problem with the top is that it has become too passive and tolerant. The poor aren’t encouraged to try to act like the middle and upper classes, unless they are poor people like rappers who have managed to get a lot of money while retaining their poor morals. AaronB who idolizes the poor is an extreme example.

    When the materially better off are callous and brutal they often veneer it in a very urbane way
     
    This is because we live in a society that is generally good and, as a consequence, cruelty and brutality are looked down upon and those who engage in it try to hide it.

    Replies: @Barbarossa

    in that the top no longer encourage the poor to live by the top’s correct moral code

    You sincerely think that the top in the US has a correct moral code?

    I think that in many ways you are conflating exterior social order with morality. You can have the former without the latter.

    I did look through your stats from your January 20th post since I had checked out for a while. I find myself unconvinced.

    Sure, heroin use is more prevalent among the poor but that is because heroin is cheap. The upper class is abusing prescription pills. One of the markers of the opioid crisis is its’ even distribution across class.

    Divorce rate across profession is not an accurate indicator of morality. If infidelity is rampant then what does the “intact” marriage signify but a status marker?

    Richer people may also be less obese because they can afford personal trainers, liposuction, and the time necessary to obsess and take action over their appearance. They could be equally gluttonous but also be mastered by the sins of pride and vanity.

    The study on youthful sexual offenders is clear that the driving dynamic are dysfunctional families and substance abuse, which correlates to socioeconomic status but which is not primary. To reiterate my point, richer people who commit such crimes have broad resources to hush it up and keep it from being prosecuted and are thus excluded from such statistics. People in foster care or the larger social system are more likely be found out in such crimes than in closer knit families who may internally cover up such abuse, skewing the statistics in predictable ways.

    And naturally enough rich people are going to be particularly less likely to commit violent crimes than poor people. There is too much to lose in committing such crimes and society doesn’t give the free pass on violent crime to someone of means than it does to “white collar” crimes. Violent crimes are usually committed by those who feel they have little to lose.

    In any case, what Jesus preached about was not an order of social norms, but a morality that transcends that. As He said, we are called to live in Spirit and in Truth. If Jesus was invested in maintaining propriety he would have sided with the Pharisees.

    This is not to say that all dismantling of social order is good, far from it. Most revolutions set up more terror than they root out. However, I find it incredible that you seem to find our modern day social and class order to be a source of unqualified good. As Jesus also said, can a good tree give bad fruit and a bad tree good fruit?

    I also find it ludicrous to believe that the morals of our society is driven in a bottom up direction. Decadence has always historically stemmed from the upper classes. It is only mass media and the increased disposable wealth of the industrial age which has allowed decadence to become an actionable prospect for the lower and middle classes.

    I would actually argue that both the sinful in the lower and upper classes are behaving in an impeccably moral way…according to the twisted ethics of the spirit of our age. Lust, greed, gluttony etc. are being pushed from every angle in popular culture. If trailer dwellers act like low rent Kardashians than it’s no wonder. They have the same moral compass. The Kardashians just have the accolades of society because they made it big.

  177. @songbird
    @Yahya


    You are too dumb to even quote me properly. Just putting words in my mouth
     
    Would use blockquotes, if I were trying to quote you. (Or punish anyone reading this thread). But you said nothing meaningful, and were disrespectful, so I chose to satirize you.

    Will address your point about the genetics of Ancient Greece though, since it is semi-cogent, and I don't think I made a proper response to it. To attempt to summarize:

    You are correct that Ancient Greeks were more closely related to Ancient Anatolians than Modern Greeks are to Turks, and your explanation about why this has changed is also right.

    You are correct (but straw-manning) to object and say this doesn't meant that Turks aren't the descendants of Ancient Greeks. (In fact, I have never claimed that they weren't)

    What I did say, and what is true is that modern Greeks and Turks have a relatively high genetic distance for neighboring countries. (BTW, don't believe you acknowledged this, and I am not quite sure you understand what it means.)

    It literally means that modern Greeks are more genetically related to the French than to Turks. Relatedness =/= descent. But that doesn't mean that relatedness isn't meaningful.

    [To give an extreme example: if a Swede misceginates with a Nigerian, then they are literally more genetically related to a random Swede than they will be to their own kids. If they are looking for a bone-marrow transplant, or an organ transplant, they'll probably need to get it from someone other than their children.

    You might say, "Well, they are still their children." And that is true, but their genetic distance to their children is very high and there are consequences to that - it isn't just some abstract number, but something that represents a tangible reality]

    I have speculated that this is what explains modern tensions and political differences. Now, I grant you this is where my logic might be a little murky or a reach. The genes are mixed up with history, religion, and culture.

    I think it is pretty obvious that, if the Ottomans had been utterly defeated, Greece and Turkey would be one country and one culture. That is alt history. Maybe, not especially likely. And it is possible to imagine crazier scenarios.

    What if we secretly shifted the DNA of the Turks or the Greeks to reduce the genetic distance to zero, without letting them catch on? Would it reduce tensions? If we didn't change the historical baggage or cultural differences? I would guess not. (Am too lazy to look it up, but I think Bosnians and Serbs are much more closely related)

    Anyway, whatever the case, it is notable that the genetic distance is so high. And I don't understand why you can't seem to acknowledge that, and leave it at that. That was really what my original post was about.

    Replies: @Yahya

    What I did say, and what is true is that modern Greeks and Turks have a relatively high genetic distance for neighboring countries.

    Greeks are even more distant from Celtoids. Doesn’t stop you from taking vicarious pride in Greek accomplishments and pretending as if they belong to the same ethno-racial group as yourself. You probably don’t even have a single drop of detectable Greek ancestry, yet you presume to tell Turks, who are both descended from and genetically more related to modern and ancient Greeks; that they are just too distant from Greeks.

    Anyway, whatever the case, it is notable that the genetic distance is so high.

    It’s not high. Greeks are literally closer to Turks than just about 99% of people on the planet. On a regional PCA they plot in the same quadrant. On a global PCA they would practically be indistinguishable. That you cherry-pick France as the basis for comparison is deception par excellence.

    You are too obsessed with your cherished concept of “Europe” as a coherent ethno-racial block to understand that Greeks are closer to Turks than they are to Russians, Swedes, Englishmen, Irishmen, Germans etc. and most Europeans save for a few groups in the South.

    It’s almost as if some redneck teacher took you aside in your schooldays and said “well look it here birdie, this here Greece is located in Europe, so they are a huwite people. And this here Turkey is in Aysia, so they be folks of color down there.” And you just took this as an eternal truth and carried it with you for the rest of your life. Maybe you are just too American to understand that the world exists outside of American racial conceptions.

    But that doesn’t mean that relatedness isn’t meaningful. [To give an extreme example: if a Swede misceginates with a Nigerian, then they are literally more genetically related to a random Swede than they will be to their own kids.

    Your argument reminds me of Hitler’s idea that Slavs were “Mongolian” or “Turkoman” untermensch because they had some Asiatic genetic traces; instead of what they really were, which is people of the same racial stock as Germans, who on a global scale, were basically genetically indistinguishable.

    The East Asian admixture in Turks is not comparable to a mulatto Swede. The Turks are still 80%+ Caucasoid; how many Turks do you see with Asiatic features? Again, perhaps it is this one-drop rule you have acquired from being an American that has turned your brain into mush regarding this topic.

    Anyway, whatever the case, it is notable that the genetic distance is so high. And I don’t understand why you can’t seem to acknowledge that, and leave it at that. That was really what my original post was about.

    You’re wrong on nearly everything on this topic. You don’t understand genetics. You are ignorant about history. When I contradict your empty assertions with concrete facts; you lie, you deflect, you twist and you deceive. It is you who should admit error.

    You were right only once, towards the end when you admitted that your previous assertion that genetic distance caused tension may have been erroneous. Greek and Turkish enmity is a result of cultural and religious differences, not genetics. We can see that even with an almost identical group as Russians and Ukrainians; there is still conflict and hostility. Likewise, the English were as genetically close as you can get to the Irish, when they had their boots on them. Serbs and Croats – same in all aspects but religious sect. Indians and Pakistanis. The list goes on and on.

    • Replies: @songbird
    @Yahya


    Your argument reminds me of Hitler’s idea
     
    Whoa, you're reading the H-man?!

    Likewise, the English were as genetically close as you can get to the Irish,
     
    This is what a lot of people say, when they want to dismiss the basis for genetic conflict. Afraid it doesn't make any sense, if you actually spend more than five seconds thinking about it.
    , @AP
    @Yahya


    Greeks are literally closer to Turks than just about 99% of people on the planet.
     
    True, but there are peoples closer to Turks than Greeks:

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FZUuorRXEAA1dEm.jpg

    Azeris are the closest, but Kurds, Persians, and peoples of the Caucuses are closer to Turks than are Greeks.

    Pre-Turk Anatolians were a Hellenized, Greek-speaking people who were closer kin genetically to pre-Arab conquest Indo-European peoples like Persians than to Greeks from Greece. The Turkish conquest made them about 15%-20% Asian. One can indeed see faint traces of Asian-ness in some Turkish faces:

    https://i.pinimg.com/originals/bb/58/bd/bb58bd39db21a973e80f1a1ee1e8d384.jpg

    If you google-image "Castizo" (Hispanics of 1/4 Indian descent) you will see faces not unlike Turkish ones.



    ::::::::::::::::::::::::::

    Of course, none of them are close to the Irish.

    Replies: @Wokechoke, @Dmitry, @songbird

  178. @AP
    @Barbarossa


    “And on these measures the poor (in general) do poorly compared to the rich.”

    I am extremely doubtful that this is correct [that in modern society poor are more sinful then middle and upper classes]. It might be more accurate to say that the rich are less likely to prosecuted for these things
     
    Then you are mistaken. I posted numerous citations that support my claim. A simple test: are you safer in a poor area or in a non-poor area? Compare Detroit to its suburbs, the south to the north side of Chicago, West Virginia to rural Massachusetts.

    It’s worth mentioning that drug abuse may be often be perfectly legal while no less debasing
     
    Possible, but the rates are still lower. And a glass of wine with one’s dinner or even a bit of coke at a weekend party is very different from a life revolving around such use or devoted to it.

    Though it seems to me that fake caricature of middle class supposedly devoting their lives to making $$$ might not be different in essence from the reality of some of the poor devoting their lives to their pleasures.

    Replies: @Barbarossa, @Barbarossa

    • Replies: @RSDB
    @Barbarossa

    That was a fascinating article, thanks!

    I hate posting on topics like this, partly because there are so many more qualified people, partly because most of the topics we discuss are discussed to death elsewhere, partly because posting on a topic about the soul makes me feel like I should be a particularly devout, good, or knowledgeable person to discuss it, which I am not, and partly because all this effort is wasted because nobody ever changes his mind on here.

    However, someone posts something really interesting like this and that makes it worthwhile.

    Replies: @Yahya

    , @AP
    @Barbarossa

    This post stated that more affluent young people used drugs and alcohol more often and therefore claimed that they were at greater risk od addiction. But actual rates of binge drinking and abuse are lower, as highlighted in this more recent study:

    https://sunrisehouse.com/addiction-demographics/socioeconomic-groups/



    “About 80% of upper-income survey respondents reported drinking alcohol, compared with approximately 50% of lower-income respondents.”

    “Among American adolescents, heavy alcohol use is more widespread in individuals whose families have higher levels of income and education. Teens whose parents had a higher education and a higher household income were more likely to engage in heavy drinking episodes than young people from lower-income homes whose parents were less educated.6”

    “However, individuals with a history of belonging to a lower-income socioeconomic group were more likely to engage in heavy drinking or binge drinking (the consumption of five or more drinks in one sitting), while individuals in higher-income groups were more likely to engage in light or social drinking. Individuals from a working-class background were more likely to indulge in heavy drinking; however, they were also more likely to be completely abstinent from alcohol than the white-collar Americans who were studied.”

    “ Misuse of illegal opioids (such as heroin) or prescription opioids may be highest among the poor and continues to affect people in Appalachia and those living in poverty at disproportionate rates”

    “ Middle-aged white Americans who have less education, experience poverty, and increased stress due to their financial situation have increased mortality related to substance use.9

    Other communities and demographics, including Black Americans, that experience high poverty and a lack of local economic investment also experience opioid use at increased levels, as well as polysubstance use”

    ::::::::;;

    The overall picture is that the affluent may drink more often but do so in more moderation at each sitting.

    Replies: @Barbarossa

  179. @Another Polish Perspective
    @AP


    It’s why I post from Catholic and Orthodox sources.
     
    St Clement is a low-level source, which cannot be authoritative. Anyway, what he says is rather common sense, which should make you aware how contentious the issue of riches was in early Church.

    Or maybe for you can be - but I myself would feel much more better if you could provide me with Scriptures quotations praising material wealth and its possession.

    Even if you quote some saints, that does not automatically makes you reasoning Catholic - for me, your stance reeks of some Protestantism, just being so judgemental, trying to build "God's city upon Earth" kind of, and through what I would call with the German word Aktionismus, a need to do sth for the sake of doing, without considering whether this doing is more good or more bad, eg. lockdowns.


    One of the things that upset AaronB was when I insisted that the destitute need to be removed from the streets and placed in rehab facilities or hospitals, and in the last case even prison if they are a danger to themselves or to other people and there is no other recourse.

    AaronB claimed that these poor and suffering people were some kind of righteous rebels against an evil society, compared them to ancient monks, and insisted that they should be left alone. Dmitry even compared my approach to Stalinism.
     

    I disagree with putting them in prison too lest they have committed a crime. You can offer them a choice of living in asylum if they like to, but they shouldn't be forced too. I seem them more as the unfortunate ones than rebels but certainly some of them are the latter. You do not have a right to force "charity" upon them - you don't want to deprive them such an important instrument of salvation as free will, do you?

    Your approach could be interpreted as pagan too, as it seems to be driven by the old Greek aristocratic morality of kalos kai agathos - of the beautiful and the good . Nowadays the expression of such morality are gated communities.

    You need to accept suffering before your eyes, and do not increase this suffering further like locking people down due to fear of possible crimes/crimes yet non-existent. Something likes that in Europe exists in Germany - it is called Sicherungsverwahrung - and it was introduced by Nazis, which kind of discredits for me the idea: they can keep you there in prison without limits after you official prison term just because they think you are "dangerous". Germany does this despite negative judgements of ECHR in Strasbourg.

    Certainly poor people on the streets can evoke a dissonance in the rich, but this dissonance helpfully will serve them as a reminder of the common human condition, and God's judgement upon everyone of us. Anyway, since charities have often become true businesses nowadays, I am wondering that if you don't want to rent a room for a poor, maybe you should invite one of them to your house...?
    In this way you would be forced to confront them as human beings primarily, the thing you seem to be yearning to avoid.
    I remember there was a Catholic foundation which fostered such things, even if with the disabled people...

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%27Arche

    Replies: @AP

    St Clement is a low-level source [about wealth], which cannot be authoritative

    He’s cited as the authority about wealth by both Catholic and Orthodox sources (I had posted the links earlier).

    Or maybe for you can be – but I myself would feel much more better if you could provide me with Scriptures quotations praising material wealth and its possession

    Wealth is neither praiseworthy nor worthy of condemnation. The Church teaches that what matters is how it is used.

    Here is a detailed discussion from a Catholic source:

    https://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=2944

    Even if you quote some saints, that does not automatically makes you reasoning Catholic – for me, your stance reeks of some Protestantism

    I quote saints and opinions from Orthodox and Catholic thinkers, not Protestant ones. If for you this reeks of Protestantism I suggest that you review your understanding of Catholicism and Orthodoxy.

    I disagree with putting them [homeless] in prison too lest they have committed a crime

    Even if they have committed crimes they should be provided with rehab or hospitals first, but if those don’t work then prison is a last resort. Of course people who don’t commit crimes should not be incarcerated. It this is rare among homeless, petty theft is imminent among them, prostitution, selling drugs, buying drugs, trespassing, etc.

    What is wrong is to allow them to just wallow in sin and suffering in the streets.

    You do not have a right to force “charity” upon them – you don’t want to deprive them such an important instrument of salvation as free will, do you?

    A similar argument was used by American progressives to empty the psychiatric hospitals. This was very sad.

    Do you think that the Church’s opposition to assisted suicide deprives people of free will also?

    in Germany – it is called Sicherungsverwahrung – and it was introduced by Nazis, which kind of discredits for me the idea: they can keep you there in prison without limits after you official prison term just because they think you are “dangerous”

    Sounds like sensible policy. Nazis also were the first to limit public smoking in order to prevent second hand smoke; despite their evil in other areas they weren’t bad for public health.

    Certainly poor people on the streets can evoke a dissonance in the rich, but this dissonance helpfully will serve them as a reminder of the common human condition

    You don’t think that it is sick to allow such suffering of human beings, so that it can serve as a reminder to others?

    “We’ll let you sleep in the streets and will look the other way as you rob your peers or engage in petty theft to support the heroin habit that has already given you Hep C and HIV because we value your free will, your freedom and because your life will serve us as a reminder of the human condition.”

    This is the kind of cruel decadence of AaronBs and California bureaucrats.

    I am wondering that if you don’t want to rent a room for a poor, maybe you should invite one of them to your house…?
    In this way you would be forced to confront them as human beings primarily, the thing you seem to be yearning to avoid.

    I suspect that I know far more poor people far better then you or anyone you have ever met. I know their stories, their families, etc. (I worked at an urban hospital and still consult at a clinic and take time talking to patients).

    • Replies: @Another Polish Perspective
    @AP


    Do you think that the Church’s opposition to assisted suicide deprives people of free will also?
     
    No, of course not. Suicide should never be too easy, and since it should be a free decision - the German name for it is "Freitod"/Free death, it is better than such a decision will be expressed by action, not just words. As long as you can eat, you can probably kill yourself by some poison.

    Sounds like sensible policy. Nazis also were the first to limit public smoking in order to prevent second hand smoke; despite their evil in other areas they weren’t bad for public health.
     
    Again, deeming someone "dangerous" from behind the desk is not about health. You think too much in terms of "hygiene" etc. Would you like eugenic movement too? You cannot usurp the competence of God (here: judging future) - why not kill a person instead of keeping him forever locked anyway since you "know" they will be criminal forever? It is extremely demoralizing to be kept in prison after your term ended. Sicherungsverwahrung is an example of the bad side of the German civilization, and of typical German paternalism ("Elites/state/know better"), and of true lack of shame for Nazism INSIDE Germany. Sicherungsverwahrung does not exist in non-German Europe AFAIK.

    You don’t think that it is sick to allow such suffering of human beings, so that it can serve as a reminder to others?
     

    Being a reminder to others is secondary to their own decision to stay on the street.

    Replies: @AP

  180. @Mikel
    @AP


    You are mistaken. They are more likely to commit various sins. I posted that earlier.
     
    You just showed some crude correlation between sinful acts and poverty but the causality is uncertain. People living in poverty are more likely to engage in some antisocial behaviors out of necessity, eg a destitute person is of course more much likely to feel the need to steal than a wealthy individual leading a comfortable life. Likewise, a person born and grown up among immoral people is less likely to learn good habits and prosper in life than if that same person had been born in a virtuous family. So that correlation on its own doesn't necessarily teach us much about any innate tendencies among people who happen to be born in different social classes (I do think that there might be some innate poverty-immorality link but not that your data demonstrates it).

    It would be easy to misunderstand Jesus here and to assume that it’s impossible for a rich person to get into heaven.
     
    How can anyone misunderstand this?

    "I'll say it again-it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the Kingdom of God!" Matthew 19:24

    This is exactly what I was taught Jesus had said when I was a child. Having been born in a rather well-to-do family, I remember feeling threatened by this remark of Jesus and finding it cruel. I still had the time to become poor later in later in life, I thought, but what about my parents? Were they virtually condemned to go to hell?

    Replies: @AP, @RSDB

    (I do think that there might be some innate poverty-immorality link but not that your data demonstrates it)

    The problem is– what is immorality here? We all know murdering someone is wrong. What about educating someone else’s children in perversion and lies? How many bad schoolteachers, bad professors, or bad university administrators are homeless?

    Or- we know the poor receive abortions more than the rich, certainly*. But, of abortionists themselves, how many are poor? Do they show up in murder statistics? The vast administrative and legal structure that exists to support them? People who give money to these organizations?

    I’ve read commenter Twinkie describe the world of Capitol Hill, to paraphrase, as a place where incompetence, greed, and treason come together and fructify, and he has also said that unmistakable treason was being winked at when he worked in the defense industry. Are congressional staffers holding out tin cups on the streets of DC? ADA programmers?

    Read the article Barbarossa linked on drug use: https://www.turnbridge.com/news-events/latest-articles/socioeconomic-status-and-drug-use/# I found it shocking; you might at least find it interesting.

    Were they virtually condemned to go to hell?

    No. AP is right. They have, however, added responsibilities relative to their wealth, which require supernatural grace to meet. Fortunately “supernatural” doesn’t necessarily mean “rare”.

    [MORE]

    I think I know what AP is getting at, which is that in cases of alcoholism etc. one must admit fault in order to improve rather than blaming society, even if “society” is partly to blame, and it’s not fair to the sufferer either to deny him agency or to suggest that it is better for him not to change at all. However, when this argument has come to inferring degree of sinfulness from crime statistics something has come off the rails.

    It’s possible to be homeless out of saintliness, as in the case of St. Benedict Labre. I don’t think it’s common.

    *Although the Brookings Institute argues the reverse: https://www.brookings.edu/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/26_class_gaps_unintended_pregnancy.pdf
    Actually pretty interesting. Something to think about.

    • Replies: @Mikel
    @RSDB


    The problem is– what is immorality here?
     
    Good question. But my impression that there might be an innate connection comes from my having lived in different countries and observed how a correlation exists between relative poverty and lack of moral rectitude. In Latin America, specifically, it is not difficult to see how a society that totally lacks trust and where lie and deceit are prevalent is unable to reach prosperity due to the huge hurdle imposed by those social habits. They are often also accompanied by aggressiveness and low impulse control. However, I have met quite decent poor people and very indecent rich people in those countries too. I have myself had a couple of periods of involuntary poverty in my life due to excessive risk taking so things are complicated, as always with human and social affairs.
  181. @AP
    @Another Polish Perspective


    It is not irrelevant. Maybe you should try to find what your religion says in its entire complexity
     
    It’s why I post from Catholic and Orthodox sources.

    It should also be worrying to you that you can be credibly – such is my opinion – taken for a Protestant
     
    You should rather question your assumptions when I literally post arguments from Orthodox and Catholic sources and thinkers and you accuse these arguments of Protestantism.

    The concept of faith is much broader than the concept of deeds. You could mean funding missions abroad (what Protestants like to do), or you could mean funding either reconstruction or construction of new, ornate church buildings (what the Orthodox and the Uniates like to do, at least judging from what I have seen in the pre-war Ukraine)
     
    Before the war we were collecting money for orphanages and schools in church.

    he did single out helping the destitute people in specific, we cannot have doubts concerning this particular verse of James 2:15-16.
     
    One of the things that upset AaronB was when I insisted that the destitute need to be removed from the streets and placed in rehab facilities or hospitals, and in the last case even prison if they are a danger to themselves or to other people and there is no other recourse.

    AaronB claimed that these poor and suffering people were some kind of righteous rebels against an evil society, compared them to ancient monks, and insisted that they should be left alone. Dmitry even compared my approach to Stalinism.

    I

    wouldn’t fully agree with that “Christianity has completely changed people” , since paganism partly merged with Christianity
     
    Compatible parts, sure. The contrast of a society that values strength and killing and builds arenas where people watch other people being slaughtered for entertainment, versus one that values mercy and kindness and builds public hospitals reflects the radical change in values.

    conflict between Christian cult and Scripture
     
    There is no conflict because Scripture can only be property understood as interpreted by the Church.

    Protestants decided to interpret Scripture on their own and based on their own interpretation split from the Church and formulated their own sometimes wild ideas, such as predestination by Calvinists. Ironically these Calvinists probably read the Scriptures and know them better than most others.

    Replies: @Ivashka the fool, @A123, @Another Polish Perspective, @RSDB

    It’s why I post from Catholic and Orthodox sources.

    Can you find a Catholic or Orthodox source that posits that the poor are worse people than the rich?

    Can you find a Catholic or Orthodox source which puts forward a method for the quantification of sinfulness?

    Canonized or beatified sources preferred, but not required.

    If you are not saying that, you should be aware that it is likely that impression of your meaning to which people are replying.

    [MORE]

    As for public policy decisions, other people here, including you, are probably more qualified to discuss them than am I– although that doesn’t always stop me from opining. I primarily object here to using arguments from the relative quantified sinfulness of different groups of people.

    • Replies: @Barbarossa
    @RSDB


    If you are not saying that, you should be aware that it is likely that impression of your meaning to which people are replying.

     

    AP gives the overwhelming impression to me that he regards poor people as primarily social problems and not human beings. I also suspect that he doesn't mean to come across quite like that.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    , @AP
    @RSDB


    Can you find a Catholic or Orthodox source that posits that the poor are worse people than the rich?
     
    Poor are not inherently worse than rich, and they probably were better than the rich for much of history.

    But empirically, in modern times the poor on average engage in more sinful acts than do the middle and upper classes.

    Can you find a Catholic or Orthodox source which puts forward a method for the quantification of sinfulness
     
    No.

    This does not mean that a decent attempt can't be made to quantify it using measurable behaviors. Crimes of theft and violence can be proxies for greed and wrath, respectively, obesity and substance abuse for gluttony, number of sex partners and children out of wedlock for lust, persistent unemployment for sloth.

    In most of these areas the poor in general do worse in general than do the middle and upper classes.

    So one can conclude that in general poverty is correlated with sinfulness although it is not a perfect correlation and there do exist many poor people who are more virtuous than many rich people.

    Here is a list of sinful behaviors and who commits them:



    Wealthier people have higher marriage rates and lower divorce rates:

    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32886585/

    Wealthy people 7 times less likely to grow up and commit violent crimes than poor people in Sweden:

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4180846/

    Wealthier people less likely to kill their domestic partners in the USA, even when taking race into account:

    https://scholarworks.uni.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1009&context=ijghhd

    Poor people commit more of every type of crime in Toronto:

    https://storymaps.arcgis.com/stories/b5ab6df3741649c4bcc0a5fbd9e3b45b

    Both very rich and very poor had higher number of sexual partners than the middle classes:

    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32886585/

    Poor people more obese (thus, the sin of gluttony):

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7484407/#:~:text=Socioeconomic%20status%20(SES)%20is%20an,variable%20over%20time%20%5B2%5D.

    Poor adolescents more likely to commit all kinds of sex crimes than rich ones:

    https://heinonline.org/HOL/LandingPage?handle=hein.journals/ijotcc40&div=39&id=&page=

    Poorer people more likely to abuse various substances (this is more recent than the article Barbarossa lied to that suggested the opposite, in young people):

    https://sunrisehouse.com/addiction-demographics/socioeconomic-groups/

    Poor kids more likely to abuse drugs and engagen drug-related crime in Sweden:

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8247994/

    Wealthier occupations have fewer divorces:

    https://i.imgur.com/9VHd1ys.png

    Replies: @RSDB, @Wokechoke

  182. @AP
    @Mikel


    You just showed some crude correlation between sinful acts and poverty but the causality is uncertain. People living in poverty are more likely to engage in some antisocial behaviors out of necessity, eg a destitute person is of course more much likely to feel the need to steal than a wealthy individual leading a comfortable life.
     
    Read Murray's Coming Apart. The poor live more sinful lives than the middle and upper classes. Not just the desperate poor. And in the USA few people can be considered to be desperately poor, on the edge of starvation, etc.

    "It would be easy to misunderstand Jesus here and to assume that it’s impossible for a rich person to get into heaven."

    How can anyone misunderstand this?

    “I’ll say it again-it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the Kingdom of God!” Matthew 19:24
     

    They misunderstand it when they don't read the entire passage, and as a result get a false meaning based on a snippet. Here is the full one:

    "And Jesus said to his disciples, “Truly, I say to you, only with difficulty will a rich person enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God.” When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished, saying, “Who then can be saved?” But Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

    Nor do they consider it together with other passages (see my other post).

    This is why it is foolish to pick individual quotes to try to prove something, instead of following the teachings of the Church. The Church teaches that wealth is not as important as faith and use of that wealth in accordance with faith. St. Clement in the 2nd century wrote that possessi0n are not in themselves good or evil but it depends how they are used and it is sinful to allow oneself to be controlled by them or be obsessed by the need for their acquisition. But there is nothing wrong with being rich as long as one uses his wealth well and is not too attached to it.

    When the priest reads Mathew 19:24 he reads it all and explains it in that way.

    Replies: @HeavilyMarbledSteak, @Mr. Hack, @Another Polish Perspective, @Mikel

    They misunderstand it when they don’t read the entire passage, and as a result get a false meaning based on a snippet. Here is the full one:

    Thank you for providing a larger part of the passage (albeit not the full one). But unfortunately I don’t see how the sentence you have highlighted contradicts the clear meaning of the previous one.

    There is no logical connection between the sentence “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible” and rich people being able to enter the Kingdom of God after he had already declared that this was more difficult than for a camel to go through the eye of a needle (arguably the largest animal and the smallest hole known to Jesus’ contemporaries).

    The sentence you have highlighted is just the standard proclamation of God’s omnipotence in the Abrahamic religions but the earlier sentence recalled by Matthew, who is supposed to be a direct witness of the conversation, is a specific statement about who will be able to enter the Kingdom of that omnipotent God and how extremely difficult it will be for those who don’t renounce their riches.

    In fact, if one is to doubt what Jesus really meant with what Matthew put in his mouth (and let’s not forget, the Church decided to validate as his real words), it is more helpful to read the part of the passage before those words:

    16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

    17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

    18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,

    19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

    20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?

    21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

    22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.

    23 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.

    24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

    https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2019&version=KJV

    In other words, even virtuous people who had committed no sin would not be worthy of entering Heaven, according to Jesus, if they didn’t abandon their wealth and embrace poverty. If anything, the full context of the passage strengthens rather than weakens Jesus’ threat to rich people. Not that I sympathize with everything HMS has been saying but Matthew 19 looks like a total vindication of his ideal of poverty. It’s little wonder that early Christians who read these passages and tried to follow them led lives of renunciation to earthly concerns.

    This full passage, by the way, is depicted in the Hollywood epic film The Greatest Story Ever Told. When I watched this part of the movie not long ago I remember feeling the same uneasiness as in my childhood. This virtuous man who went to Jesus asking for spiritual advice only received a terrible threat because he was unwilling to abandon his family and comfortable life.

    That Church officials have later tried to embellish or distort a passage that everybody is able to understand with no difficulty does not impress me much, to be honest. They did the same with cardinal commandments when they supported wars, crusades, plunder and immoral regimes.

    • Replies: @AP
    @Mikel

    Here is a lengthy discussion of Catholic attitude towards property and wealth:

    https://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=2944


    There is no logical connection between the sentence “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible” and rich people being able to enter the Kingdom of God after he had already declared that this was more difficult than for a camel to go through the eye of a needle
     
    It amends it. With man it is (basically) impossible for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of God but with God all things are possible. It seems rather clear.

    Moreover, salvation came to Zacheus, a rich man who gave only half of his possessions up and restored what he had swindled four-fold:

    https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%2019%3A1-10&version=NIV

    Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

     

    According to Catholic doctrine perfection is not necessary to enter the Kingdom of God because with God all things are possible.

    In other words, even virtuous people who had committed no sin would not be worthy of entering Heaven, according to Jesus, if they didn’t abandon their wealth and embrace poverty
     
    Indeed none of us are worthy. That’s widely understood and accepted.

    It’s little wonder that early Christians who read these passages and tried to follow them led lives of renunciation to earthly concerns.
     
    Far from all, and those who didn’t weren’t condemned for not doing so.

    From the linked article I provided:



    “Again, in order to understand the severe tone in which the Fathers sometimes speak of riches and of its obligations, we must bear in mind that the social world in which they lived was greatly different from our own. The wonderful industrial developments that have taken place in modern times have led to an enormous production of wealth, the possession of which by private individuals rests on honorable titles. In the days of the Roman Empire, the acquisition of wealth was but too frequently secured by the spoliation of conquered lands, by extortionate tax collecting, by excessive usury, by the exploiting of defenseless widows and orphans, and by other dubious means. The result was that, in the popular mind, a certain stigma attached to the possession of great wealth. It was a popular saying, "the rich man is either an unjust man or the heir of one (dives iniquus aut iniqui heres)."

    And now numerous examples of early wealthy Christians not giving up all their wealth:

    The story of St. Peter's release from prison indirectly shows that Mary the mother of John, surnamed Mark, lived in a house of considerable comfort. Cornelius, the converted centurion, distinguished for his liberality, was, and apparently remained, a man of means. In the Gentile churches, established by St. Paul and others, there is absolutely no trace of a communistic mode of life. Private ownership is implied both in the Agape or love-feast of the primitive Church of Corinth, and in the voluntary contributions collected in the churches of Asia Minor, Macedonia and Greece for the poor of Jerusalem. Among the devout converts of St. Paul were people of wealth, such as Crispus and Chloe of Corinth, Lydia, the seller of purple at Philippi, and Philemon of Colossae, whose runaway slave was the occasion of St. Paul's beautiful letter to his Christian master.

    St. Basil, the life-long friend of St. Gregory, came also of a wealthy family. His parents owned property both in Pontus and in Cappadocia. A fair share of this property fell to St. Basil, who was one of ten children. He was still a young man when he adopted the ascetic life of a hermit. He sold the greater part of his patrimony and gave the proceeds to the poor. But that he might be assured a meagre income sufficient to meet his few daily wants, the family house, with the farm and a small number of slaves, was committed to the care of Dorotheus, his foster-brother, the son of his slave-nurse, on condition that he should pay St. Basil every year a fixed sum of money. Among the extant letters of the Saint are two that were written to an official of the province, asking him to see that this property of his foster-brother should not be exposed to excessive taxation.11 In other letters, we find him interceding for friends that their property may be saved from impending loss.

    Etc. etc.

    Replies: @Mikel

  183. Sher Singh says:
    @songbird
    @Thulean Friend


    To be frank, I wouldn’t spend too much time on either singh or yahya.
     
    Honestly, I do find Singh's occasional crudities distasteful. But I have always gotten the idea with him that it was nothing personal, that he simply enjoys contention and trolling. In another age, perhaps, he would be taunting (probably mooning) us on the battlefield, while brandishing his sword.

    Perhaps, yahya would say the same of himself, but he seems more like a negative stereotype, hot-blooded and nursing a grudge forever. With him, it does seem personal, he seems to weirdly interpret everything as a personal insult (whether or not it even touches on Arabs), and I do think you are right, that it is tied to some inferiority complex. (And I would specifically say narcissism. Maybe, encouraged by his sense of entitlement due to class)

    There is this idea that having old ruins can stultify a civilization, by encouraging people to get lost in old glories. Our old friend under the new avatar, HMS, mentioned Burton. I recall that Burton wrote that proper Arabs used to scornfully call Egyptians "Children of the Pharaoh."

    Imagine that was because they couldn't claim the same heritage, but yahya is of both sides. It gets a little ridiculous because you enter into geo-determinism, not to mention the cold math of it. At 4600 years, I'd speculate that even the East Asian commentors are descended from the pharoahs. Of course, DNA is something different, but, in fact, we are all of us lucky not to be born into the severely inbred royalty of ancient Egypt.

    The 2010s saw a *massive* emigration wave out of Punjab, often Sikhs to Canada.
     
    Am fascinated by the movement of Sikhs. Only guessed it, but if I understand correctly, it is because they get some sort of priority status as "refugees." (Did Sher Singh or his parents get this status? And wouldn't it be at odds with the style of his posting?)

    Am ignorant about the local conditions, but it seems like a scam to me. (Are Sikhs really threatened? Would guess not.) Fascinating to contemplate. Why the priority status? Seemingly because they are a novelty, a small minority of Indians. Maybe, refugee regulations are built on a conception of the highest value being assigned to individuals, rather than groups, but it still seems like a great irony that they are weakening this exotic and unique group and helping turn them into a minority in their historic homelands.

    It is easy to perceive that cultural harm is done on both sides.

    FWIW, if you have a Twitter acc or a Telegram acc I would be interested in following it.
     
    Afraid I do all my sh-tposting here.

    Don't feel scholarly enough to post to Twitter or Telegram. And while I enjoy trying to make jokes, I feel like the freebooting era of twitter is over (despite Musk), and a lot of my favorite, humorous characters on it (and there were some ingenious ones), were never welcomed back, after being banned.

    Heard also that Thomas777 was banned from Telegram, so it doesn't seem to be a completely free platform either. No idea why he was banned, but I can somewhat guess. (something to do with the J-question)

    Replies: @Sher Singh

    No refugee status or ‘historic homeland in which you become a minority’. Not going to bother debunking or contextualizing the percentages & tfr data.

    Remember that Thulean supports the BJP and is angry at the repeated political defeats it’s faced.

    At the hands of Sikhs no less.

    Will say that Sikh tfr is likely higher than Hindu & possibly Muslim when controlling for socioeconomic status, but anything below 5 is nothing to write home about.

    ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫਤਿਹ

    • Replies: @A123
    @Sher Singh

    Behold the Hand of God (civilian owned).

    PEACE 😇 through superior firepower 😎

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=K3Dp6Fass2Y

  184. @Ivashka the fool
    @AP

    I believe you are right about Mr Hack being a good Orthodox Christian. However, morality and ethics are not the monopoly of a certain creed. It is part and parcel of the deep, true, human nature. It is simply the best we have to offer as a species.

    It is not the religion that makes people good or bad. It is the opposite: a good person makes their religion better, a bad person makes their religion* worse.

    And one last thing, God is not religion. God is the ground of being, the beginning and the end to it all. God is impossible to describe or circumscribe into a human belief system.

    *(Although it is not a religion, I include Atheism among belief systems because one has to believe that there's no God to be an Atheist. There are moral and ethical people among the Atheists too. Varlam Shalamov was one of these.)

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @A123, @Mikel

    I include Atheism among belief systems because one has to believe that there’s no God to be an Atheist.

    I disagree. Absent any evidence or direct experience, the default assumption of the rational invidual is that there is no God. There is no particular belief system behind the belief that the Turtle Ninjas are fictional creatures. Unless one considers simple common sense to be a belief system, that is.

    • Replies: @Ivashka the fool
    @Mikel

    Do you see magnetic radiation?
    Do you see the earth circling the sun ?
    Or does it seem to be the opposite ?
    Do you see photons with their wavelengths or colored light?
    The solid objects we hold in our hands are made of 99,9999.... % void and yet appear solid.
    And this void isn't really empty, because absent interference, it manifests quantum foam from the quantum field.
    Quantum foam which might in the final analysis be seen as much information as it is energy and which ends-up forming matter.
    Quantum fields which permeate the whole Universe.
    A Universe full of undetectable Black Matter.
    Nothing in this reality is identical to itself beyond a Planck time scale and yet we identify objects.
    You are not an individual, but a complex colony of specialized cells.
    These cells die and are produced by the million without you even noticing.
    Except for the neurons, most cells in your body have changed since you were born, and yet you're still Mikel.
    A lot of phenomena in this world of ours are not seen with the naked eye or heard of with the natural audition.
    A lot more are opposite to what our common sense dictates.
    Our senses are lacking in perception.
    So yes, your common sense is a belief system, a very crude one and on a purely physical grounds at that.
    We call it Ignorance.

    Replies: @Emil Nikola Richard, @Mikel

    , @A123
    @Mikel


    Absent any evidence or direct experience
     
    How can there be direct evidence of a concept from where no one returns? The absence of something that is effectively 100% unavailable does not prove anything one way or they other.

    Asking for it is a bit eyebrow raising. How would you conduct a science experiment to prove there is nothing beyond the physical realm?

    the default assumption of the rational invidual is that there is no God.
     
    The common sense assumption of many rational individuals, including posters here, is that Jesus is real.

    Atheists have a faith based conviction about the beyond that they cannot prove.
    ___

    Agnosticism is an entirely different concept. It admits that that knowing about the beyond is impossible. God cannot be proven or disproven. Many misidentified Atheists are actually Agnostics.

    PEACE 😇

    Replies: @Ivashka the fool

  185. @songbird
    @sudden death

    When I was in college, I once had a Nigerian roommate.

    Got into a heated argument with him one day because he never locked the door, when we were both out. He said that he wanted the door to be open, so that his friends could borrow stuff (like a cooking pot) anytime they liked. He also said that my stuff was sh-ttier, which was objectively true, though it was still worth a lot of easy money (even just the books alone) - it was harder to carry.

    Surprise, surprise, he had his very expensive Apple laptop stolen one day. (Didn't say anything, just enjoyed my Schadenfreude) Heard him telling his African friend that America is different than were they live in Nigeria (which puzzled and surprised me, but I think it has something to do with a lot of relatives and neighbors being around all the time, watching things).

    Anyway, I completely agree with you. We all like to live in a neighborhood where we don't have to lock the door, but not sure there is any actual utility to keeping your door unlocked, especially if you have a doorbell - if not easy to get one.

    I can think of a lot of horror stories from people not locking their doors, and I do actually know several people that had home intruders, while they were in their houses. Luckily, only thieves. But there is some really bone-chilling stuff out there. Maybe, it is very rare, but I'd like Barbarossa to lock his doors at night.

    Replies: @Yahya

    When I was in college, I once had a Nigerian roommate.

    Could this be the fellow who beat you and lodged a permanent chip on your shoulder re, blacks?

    Would explain a lot of your odd comments over the years.

  186. @Barbarossa
    @AP

    Also, did read this from my previous post?

    https://www.turnbridge.com/news-events/latest-articles/socioeconomic-status-and-drug-use/#

    Replies: @RSDB, @AP

    That was a fascinating article, thanks!

    I hate posting on topics like this, partly because there are so many more qualified people, partly because most of the topics we discuss are discussed to death elsewhere, partly because posting on a topic about the soul makes me feel like I should be a particularly devout, good, or knowledgeable person to discuss it, which I am not, and partly because all this effort is wasted because nobody ever changes his mind on here.

    However, someone posts something really interesting like this and that makes it worthwhile.

    • Agree: Ivashka the fool
    • Replies: @Yahya
    @RSDB


    nobody ever changes his mind on here.
     
    This is only true of the commentors who are engaged in the death struggle of winning the internet argument.

    People who are outside of the immediate conversation are more likely to find this conversation fruitful. They are less beholden to the commitment bias. For example, I used to covertly agree with AP's take that the poor were more prone to sinful behavior such as drug abuse. But the arguments and facts presented by others have changed my mind. I found it easy to do so because I took no position publicly.

  187. @AP
    @Another Polish Perspective


    St Clement is a low-level source [about wealth], which cannot be authoritative
     
    He’s cited as the authority about wealth by both Catholic and Orthodox sources (I had posted the links earlier).

    Or maybe for you can be – but I myself would feel much more better if you could provide me with Scriptures quotations praising material wealth and its possession
     
    Wealth is neither praiseworthy nor worthy of condemnation. The Church teaches that what matters is how it is used.

    Here is a detailed discussion from a Catholic source:

    https://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=2944

    Even if you quote some saints, that does not automatically makes you reasoning Catholic – for me, your stance reeks of some Protestantism
     
    I quote saints and opinions from Orthodox and Catholic thinkers, not Protestant ones. If for you this reeks of Protestantism I suggest that you review your understanding of Catholicism and Orthodoxy.

    I disagree with putting them [homeless] in prison too lest they have committed a crime

     

    Even if they have committed crimes they should be provided with rehab or hospitals first, but if those don’t work then prison is a last resort. Of course people who don’t commit crimes should not be incarcerated. It this is rare among homeless, petty theft is imminent among them, prostitution, selling drugs, buying drugs, trespassing, etc.

    What is wrong is to allow them to just wallow in sin and suffering in the streets.

    You do not have a right to force “charity” upon them – you don’t want to deprive them such an important instrument of salvation as free will, do you?
     
    A similar argument was used by American progressives to empty the psychiatric hospitals. This was very sad.

    Do you think that the Church’s opposition to assisted suicide deprives people of free will also?

    in Germany – it is called Sicherungsverwahrung – and it was introduced by Nazis, which kind of discredits for me the idea: they can keep you there in prison without limits after you official prison term just because they think you are “dangerous”
     
    Sounds like sensible policy. Nazis also were the first to limit public smoking in order to prevent second hand smoke; despite their evil in other areas they weren’t bad for public health.

    Certainly poor people on the streets can evoke a dissonance in the rich, but this dissonance helpfully will serve them as a reminder of the common human condition
     
    You don’t think that it is sick to allow such suffering of human beings, so that it can serve as a reminder to others?

    “We’ll let you sleep in the streets and will look the other way as you rob your peers or engage in petty theft to support the heroin habit that has already given you Hep C and HIV because we value your free will, your freedom and because your life will serve us as a reminder of the human condition.”

    This is the kind of cruel decadence of AaronBs and California bureaucrats.

    I am wondering that if you don’t want to rent a room for a poor, maybe you should invite one of them to your house…?
    In this way you would be forced to confront them as human beings primarily, the thing you seem to be yearning to avoid.
     
    I suspect that I know far more poor people far better then you or anyone you have ever met. I know their stories, their families, etc. (I worked at an urban hospital and still consult at a clinic and take time talking to patients).

    Replies: @Another Polish Perspective

    Do you think that the Church’s opposition to assisted suicide deprives people of free will also?

    No, of course not. Suicide should never be too easy, and since it should be a free decision – the German name for it is “Freitod”/Free death, it is better than such a decision will be expressed by action, not just words. As long as you can eat, you can probably kill yourself by some poison.

    Sounds like sensible policy. Nazis also were the first to limit public smoking in order to prevent second hand smoke; despite their evil in other areas they weren’t bad for public health.

    Again, deeming someone “dangerous” from behind the desk is not about health. You think too much in terms of “hygiene” etc. Would you like eugenic movement too? You cannot usurp the competence of God (here: judging future) – why not kill a person instead of keeping him forever locked anyway since you “know” they will be criminal forever? It is extremely demoralizing to be kept in prison after your term ended. Sicherungsverwahrung is an example of the bad side of the German civilization, and of typical German paternalism (“Elites/state/know better”), and of true lack of shame for Nazism INSIDE Germany. Sicherungsverwahrung does not exist in non-German Europe AFAIK.

    You don’t think that it is sick to allow such suffering of human beings, so that it can serve as a reminder to others?

    Being a reminder to others is secondary to their own decision to stay on the street.

    • Replies: @AP
    @Another Polish Perspective


    Again, deeming someone “dangerous” from behind the desk is not about health. You think too much in terms of “hygiene” etc
     
    I’m not familiar with details about the German system. Presumably it involves a reasonable evaluation of risk. So if someone throughout his incarceration showed a high level of violence such that it would be reasonable to conclude that an innocent person would be harmed if he were released after the sentence concludes, then the release will be postponed. If that’s how it is than it reasonable.

    Is that how it is?

    You cannot usurp the competence of God (here: judging future) – why not kill a person instead of keeping him forever locked anyway since you “know” they will be criminal forever
     
    I don't equate prison with death and presumably the person is kept after his sentence only if he is deemed a reasonable risk of harming others after his release (like if he’s a guy who was violent while in prison and is threatening to be violent after he gets out). So he can be released if he settles down.

    Replies: @Another Polish Perspective, @Another Polish Perspective

  188. @Mikel
    @Ivashka the fool


    I include Atheism among belief systems because one has to believe that there’s no God to be an Atheist.
     
    I disagree. Absent any evidence or direct experience, the default assumption of the rational invidual is that there is no God. There is no particular belief system behind the belief that the Turtle Ninjas are fictional creatures. Unless one considers simple common sense to be a belief system, that is.

    Replies: @Ivashka the fool, @A123

    Do you see magnetic radiation?
    Do you see the earth circling the sun ?
    Or does it seem to be the opposite ?
    Do you see photons with their wavelengths or colored light?
    The solid objects we hold in our hands are made of 99,9999…. % void and yet appear solid.
    And this void isn’t really empty, because absent interference, it manifests quantum foam from the quantum field.
    Quantum foam which might in the final analysis be seen as much information as it is energy and which ends-up forming matter.
    Quantum fields which permeate the whole Universe.
    A Universe full of undetectable Black Matter.
    Nothing in this reality is identical to itself beyond a Planck time scale and yet we identify objects.
    You are not an individual, but a complex colony of specialized cells.
    These cells die and are produced by the million without you even noticing.
    Except for the neurons, most cells in your body have changed since you were born, and yet you’re still Mikel.
    A lot of phenomena in this world of ours are not seen with the naked eye or heard of with the natural audition.
    A lot more are opposite to what our common sense dictates.
    Our senses are lacking in perception.
    So yes, your common sense is a belief system, a very crude one and on a purely physical grounds at that.
    We call it Ignorance.

    • Agree: Barbarossa, Sher Singh
    • Replies: @Emil Nikola Richard
    @Ivashka the fool


    And this void isn’t really empty, because absent interference, it manifests quantum foam from the quantum field.
     
    You fool!

    Did you see the Hal Puthoff Eric Weinstein flying saucer debate?

    Replies: @Ivashka the fool

    , @Mikel
    @Ivashka the fool


    A lot of phenomena in this world of ours are not seen with the naked eye or heard of with the natural audition.
     
    Yes but we know about the examples that you have given precisely because we have strong evidence (typically 5-sigma+) of their existence. And still the scientific method requires us to remain skeptical about them.

    Compare that to a supernatural being for whom no empirical evidence exists but whose existence, conveniently, would calm our existential fear.

    Replies: @Ivashka the fool, @AP, @Coconuts

  189. @RSDB
    @Mikel


    (I do think that there might be some innate poverty-immorality link but not that your data demonstrates it)
     
    The problem is-- what is immorality here? We all know murdering someone is wrong. What about educating someone else's children in perversion and lies? How many bad schoolteachers, bad professors, or bad university administrators are homeless?

    Or- we know the poor receive abortions more than the rich, certainly*. But, of abortionists themselves, how many are poor? Do they show up in murder statistics? The vast administrative and legal structure that exists to support them? People who give money to these organizations?

    I've read commenter Twinkie describe the world of Capitol Hill, to paraphrase, as a place where incompetence, greed, and treason come together and fructify, and he has also said that unmistakable treason was being winked at when he worked in the defense industry. Are congressional staffers holding out tin cups on the streets of DC? ADA programmers?

    Read the article Barbarossa linked on drug use: https://www.turnbridge.com/news-events/latest-articles/socioeconomic-status-and-drug-use/# I found it shocking; you might at least find it interesting.

    Were they virtually condemned to go to hell?

     

    No. AP is right. They have, however, added responsibilities relative to their wealth, which require supernatural grace to meet. Fortunately "supernatural" doesn't necessarily mean "rare".

    I think I know what AP is getting at, which is that in cases of alcoholism etc. one must admit fault in order to improve rather than blaming society, even if "society" is partly to blame, and it's not fair to the sufferer either to deny him agency or to suggest that it is better for him not to change at all. However, when this argument has come to inferring degree of sinfulness from crime statistics something has come off the rails.

    It's possible to be homeless out of saintliness, as in the case of St. Benedict Labre. I don't think it's common.

    *Although the Brookings Institute argues the reverse: https://www.brookings.edu/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/26_class_gaps_unintended_pregnancy.pdf
    Actually pretty interesting. Something to think about.

    Replies: @Mikel

    The problem is– what is immorality here?

    Good question. But my impression that there might be an innate connection comes from my having lived in different countries and observed how a correlation exists between relative poverty and lack of moral rectitude. In Latin America, specifically, it is not difficult to see how a society that totally lacks trust and where lie and deceit are prevalent is unable to reach prosperity due to the huge hurdle imposed by those social habits. They are often also accompanied by aggressiveness and low impulse control. However, I have met quite decent poor people and very indecent rich people in those countries too. I have myself had a couple of periods of involuntary poverty in my life due to excessive risk taking so things are complicated, as always with human and social affairs.

    • Agree: Ivashka the fool, AP
  190. @RSDB
    @Barbarossa

    That was a fascinating article, thanks!

    I hate posting on topics like this, partly because there are so many more qualified people, partly because most of the topics we discuss are discussed to death elsewhere, partly because posting on a topic about the soul makes me feel like I should be a particularly devout, good, or knowledgeable person to discuss it, which I am not, and partly because all this effort is wasted because nobody ever changes his mind on here.

    However, someone posts something really interesting like this and that makes it worthwhile.

    Replies: @Yahya

    nobody ever changes his mind on here.

    This is only true of the commentors who are engaged in the death struggle of winning the internet argument.

    People who are outside of the immediate conversation are more likely to find this conversation fruitful. They are less beholden to the commitment bias. For example, I used to covertly agree with AP’s take that the poor were more prone to sinful behavior such as drug abuse. But the arguments and facts presented by others have changed my mind. I found it easy to do so because I took no position publicly.

    • Agree: Barbarossa
    • Thanks: RSDB
  191. @Barbarossa
    @AP

    Also, did read this from my previous post?

    https://www.turnbridge.com/news-events/latest-articles/socioeconomic-status-and-drug-use/#

    Replies: @RSDB, @AP

    This post stated that more affluent young people used drugs and alcohol more often and therefore claimed that they were at greater risk od addiction. But actual rates of binge drinking and abuse are lower, as highlighted in this more recent study:

    https://sunrisehouse.com/addiction-demographics/socioeconomic-groups/

    [MORE]

    “About 80% of upper-income survey respondents reported drinking alcohol, compared with approximately 50% of lower-income respondents.”

    “Among American adolescents, heavy alcohol use is more widespread in individuals whose families have higher levels of income and education. Teens whose parents had a higher education and a higher household income were more likely to engage in heavy drinking episodes than young people from lower-income homes whose parents were less educated.6”

    “However, individuals with a history of belonging to a lower-income socioeconomic group were more likely to engage in heavy drinking or binge drinking (the consumption of five or more drinks in one sitting), while individuals in higher-income groups were more likely to engage in light or social drinking. Individuals from a working-class background were more likely to indulge in heavy drinking; however, they were also more likely to be completely abstinent from alcohol than the white-collar Americans who were studied.”

    “ Misuse of illegal opioids (such as heroin) or prescription opioids may be highest among the poor and continues to affect people in Appalachia and those living in poverty at disproportionate rates”

    “ Middle-aged white Americans who have less education, experience poverty, and increased stress due to their financial situation have increased mortality related to substance use.9

    Other communities and demographics, including Black Americans, that experience high poverty and a lack of local economic investment also experience opioid use at increased levels, as well as polysubstance use”

    ::::::::;;

    The overall picture is that the affluent may drink more often but do so in more moderation at each sitting.

    • Replies: @Barbarossa
    @AP

    I'd like to make clear that I actually have no wish to try to make the point that the rich abuse substances at higher rates than poor people. I wouldn't be surprised that poorer people do abuse substances at higher rates than richer people. The exact breakdown is immaterial to my point which is that you were citing tendentious statistics to paint an unnecessarily binary picture of poor sinful people abusing substances in contrast to the orderly example of their more virtuous betters. In reality substance abuse is a massive problem across socioeconomic lines, though because of it's association with despair I don't find it unusual that it would be highest represented in the most desperate populations.

    I'd still be interested in hearing what your response would be to my other points.

    On a slight tangent, I don't think that your thoughts about the aristocracy translate to today's class dynamic. The aristocracy, at least in the ideal which was sometimes realized and sometimes not, operated under a societal sense of mutual responsibility and obligation. This is not really the case today. Their are still vestiges of it in that we laud the rich who give to charity, but that is far different from a specific and concrete responsibility to care for those directly under the old order aristocrat. Also, we don't socially penalize the rich who don't practice charity. It's seen not as a responsibility in a deep sense just a nice option.

    Replies: @Sher Singh, @RSDB

  192. @Mikel
    @Ivashka the fool


    I include Atheism among belief systems because one has to believe that there’s no God to be an Atheist.
     
    I disagree. Absent any evidence or direct experience, the default assumption of the rational invidual is that there is no God. There is no particular belief system behind the belief that the Turtle Ninjas are fictional creatures. Unless one considers simple common sense to be a belief system, that is.

    Replies: @Ivashka the fool, @A123

    Absent any evidence or direct experience

    How can there be direct evidence of a concept from where no one returns? The absence of something that is effectively 100% unavailable does not prove anything one way or they other.

    Asking for it is a bit eyebrow raising. How would you conduct a science experiment to prove there is nothing beyond the physical realm?

    the default assumption of the rational invidual is that there is no God.

    The common sense assumption of many rational individuals, including posters here, is that Jesus is real.

    Atheists have a faith based conviction about the beyond that they cannot prove.
    ___

    Agnosticism is an entirely different concept. It admits that that knowing about the beyond is impossible. God cannot be proven or disproven. Many misidentified Atheists are actually Agnostics.

    PEACE 😇

    • Replies: @Ivashka the fool
    @A123


    How would you conduct a science experiment to prove there is nothing beyond the physical realm ?
     
    Especially that we don't even comprehend our own physical realm. It is simply too vast and complex.

    Agnosticism is an entirely different concept. It admits that that knowing about the beyond is impossible. God cannot be proven or disproven. Many misidentified Atheists are actually Agnostics
     
    Correct.

    People don't know. They cannot know. Because knowing this for sure is impossible except in a state of trance that overcomes our sensory limitations. Not knowing people tend to believe there is nothing/none out there.

  193. @A123
    @Mikel


    Absent any evidence or direct experience
     
    How can there be direct evidence of a concept from where no one returns? The absence of something that is effectively 100% unavailable does not prove anything one way or they other.

    Asking for it is a bit eyebrow raising. How would you conduct a science experiment to prove there is nothing beyond the physical realm?

    the default assumption of the rational invidual is that there is no God.
     
    The common sense assumption of many rational individuals, including posters here, is that Jesus is real.

    Atheists have a faith based conviction about the beyond that they cannot prove.
    ___

    Agnosticism is an entirely different concept. It admits that that knowing about the beyond is impossible. God cannot be proven or disproven. Many misidentified Atheists are actually Agnostics.

    PEACE 😇

    Replies: @Ivashka the fool

    How would you conduct a science experiment to prove there is nothing beyond the physical realm ?

    Especially that we don’t even comprehend our own physical realm. It is simply too vast and complex.

    Agnosticism is an entirely different concept. It admits that that knowing about the beyond is impossible. God cannot be proven or disproven. Many misidentified Atheists are actually Agnostics

    Correct.

    People don’t know. They cannot know. Because knowing this for sure is impossible except in a state of trance that overcomes our sensory limitations. Not knowing people tend to believe there is nothing/none out there.

    • Agree: Barbarossa
  194. @Another Polish Perspective
    @AP


    Do you think that the Church’s opposition to assisted suicide deprives people of free will also?
     
    No, of course not. Suicide should never be too easy, and since it should be a free decision - the German name for it is "Freitod"/Free death, it is better than such a decision will be expressed by action, not just words. As long as you can eat, you can probably kill yourself by some poison.

    Sounds like sensible policy. Nazis also were the first to limit public smoking in order to prevent second hand smoke; despite their evil in other areas they weren’t bad for public health.
     
    Again, deeming someone "dangerous" from behind the desk is not about health. You think too much in terms of "hygiene" etc. Would you like eugenic movement too? You cannot usurp the competence of God (here: judging future) - why not kill a person instead of keeping him forever locked anyway since you "know" they will be criminal forever? It is extremely demoralizing to be kept in prison after your term ended. Sicherungsverwahrung is an example of the bad side of the German civilization, and of typical German paternalism ("Elites/state/know better"), and of true lack of shame for Nazism INSIDE Germany. Sicherungsverwahrung does not exist in non-German Europe AFAIK.

    You don’t think that it is sick to allow such suffering of human beings, so that it can serve as a reminder to others?
     

    Being a reminder to others is secondary to their own decision to stay on the street.

    Replies: @AP

    Again, deeming someone “dangerous” from behind the desk is not about health. You think too much in terms of “hygiene” etc

    I’m not familiar with details about the German system. Presumably it involves a reasonable evaluation of risk. So if someone throughout his incarceration showed a high level of violence such that it would be reasonable to conclude that an innocent person would be harmed if he were released after the sentence concludes, then the release will be postponed. If that’s how it is than it reasonable.

    Is that how it is?

    You cannot usurp the competence of God (here: judging future) – why not kill a person instead of keeping him forever locked anyway since you “know” they will be criminal forever

    I don’t equate prison with death and presumably the person is kept after his sentence only if he is deemed a reasonable risk of harming others after his release (like if he’s a guy who was violent while in prison and is threatening to be violent after he gets out). So he can be released if he settles down.

    • Replies: @Another Polish Perspective
    @AP


    Is that how it is?
     
    No, it isn't. Being violent inside a prison is not essential for getting Sicherheitsverwahrung.
    From German article I once read on it, the nature of your crime, how heinous it was, is more important. However, there are no clear rules - the courts in the conservative South Germany order it more often than courts in the East or the North Germany.

    It is more about that they see your mind as a depraved (not as you see the poor, but in this direction), I would say - a depraved person does not have to be inherently violent too. There is psychological assessment every couple of years, but is kind of cursory, and tends to be negative since it is much easier to leave man in prison than to let him out. Germany has a culture of conformity, especially among state officials, and they tend to confirm each other decisions. In practice such men get out of prison when they are already old - like 60, 70 years old, since then you can say "they are too old for a crime". Some of them die in prison too.

    My point was that it was introduced by Nazis, who, as we know, were a party of deterministic racism. They saw such a criminal as a bad specimen of race, nowadays Germans see him as a bad specimen of humanity, but determinism stayed.

    Replies: @Another Polish Perspective

    , @Another Polish Perspective
    @AP

    AP, I guess Sicherheitsverwahrung German style would be too much for you too, but what do you think about Anglo-Saxon style poorhouses..? Would you reinstitute them now? If not, what is a difference between your concept of helping the poor and poorhouses?

    One interesting data I did not find in the article below is the efficiency of the system, i.e. what was the percentage of those discharged as "reformed" and how long such a "reformation" would take.

    https://www.thestar.com/news/2009/01/03/when_poorhouse_wasnt_only_an_expression.html

    "You couldn't just come and knock on the door of the poorhouse. You had to be accepted as the `deserving poor.' It was the reeve and township council that decided who the deserving poor were,"

    "pauperism" was considered a moral failing that could be erased through order and hard work."

    Hard work does not not mean efficient work, though:
    "In his native England, more than 100,000 people were swallowed up in work houses, funded by a "poor tax" on landowners and criticized for being costly and creating cycles of dependency."

    "Handouts of food or clothing known as "outdoor relief" became common and, in New Brunswick, one solution was to auction off care of the poor to the lowest bidder at "pauper auctions" that were compared to slavery in the American south."

    "While Canadian society has evolved and a sophisticated social safety net has developed to ease the burdens of those who've fallen on hard times, Dunlop is struck by how some attitudes toward poverty remain the same.

    "Sometimes when people go through the exhibit, they say `Things haven't changed very much' and I can understand their thinking," Dunlop says.

    "They see, I think, the harshness and sometimes the judgments (society made about the poor.) I think we still carry that ideological base...that if you are not successful in work you are morally a failure. Those are strong roots in our western society.""

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poorhouse

    "In the early Victorian era (see Poor Law), poverty was seen as a dishonourable state. As depicted by Charles Dickens, a workhouse could resemble a reformatory, often housing whole families, or a penal labour regime giving manual work to the indigent and subjecting them to physical punishment.[2] At many workhouses, men and women were split up with no communication between them.

    (...)
    In the United States, poorhouses were most common during the 19th and early 20th centuries.

    (...)
    The poor farms declined in the U.S. after the Social Security Act took effect in 1935, with most disappearing completely by about 1950."

  195. @Ivashka the fool
    @Sher Singh

    True power is economic and financial. Marx was right about that. Basis and superstructure. I will know they are losing power when I will see them begging in the streets. Not losing my breath waiting though.

    https://youtu.be/NgbqXsA62Qs

    This guy barely scratched the surface. It was a mandatory watching I imposed the kids when they reached 14 years old. The only change in the last decade was an even more marked financial power concentration and even more marked decoupling of the 0.1% from the rest of us. Everything else is woodoo doll and needle type of thing. Distractions. Not really important. That is why we can discuss it freely here. Tell me more about Jats and their continuous connections to the Harappan civilization please !

    🙂

    Replies: @Sher Singh, @S, @S

    You had asked on a previous post about what was driving mass immigration in to Europe.

    Below is an excerpt from pg 4 of an Oct, 2003 academic paper, which in part examined how corrupt elites and hangers on, either of one’s own people and, or, alien, have historically been making a pretty penny from the value of the labor they are systematically stealing from the exploited ‘immigrants’ as wage slaves, and in turn use these same exploited people in a cynical divide and rule scheme against the non-exploiting general public, the vast majority.

    ‘…the immigrants usually serve three main functions: cheap labor to replace native groups; settlement on the frontier (periphery); and control over the natives and their land. These dynamics generally result in the maintenance of hegemony…’

    The failure to have dealt with chattel slavery and it’s trade in a truthful manner in the 19th century by abolishing it as claimed, but instead to have monetized it with the introduction of wage slavery, ie specifically the so called ‘cheap labor’/’mass immigration’ system, has been a catastrophe of unprecedented proportions for the peoples of the world and for humanity as a whole.

    Actually truly caring about one’s people, though ultimately edifying for all concerned, can be a pain in the arse at times. It’s a lot easier, not to mention much more profitable, this way.

    Did I mention much more profitable?

    https://www.academia.edu/27219183/Between_urban_and_national_Political_mobilization_among_Mizrahim_in_Israel_s_development_towns_

    • Replies: @Ivashka the fool
    @S

    Yes. Profit making is the essence of Capitalism, therefore there's nothing surprising here. OTOH Communism has demonstrated its complete inadequacy with human nature. Which leaves us with either controlled Capitalism under a Social Democracy watch, or if one is more intent on one's own national survival, with National Socialism. Neither Social Democracy, nor National Socialism, nor some hybrid system combining both would be acceptable to current elites. They have vilified and anathemized these models, which leaves us with no adequate social system to remediate the effects of what you call wage slavery.

    As I wrote to Sylvio at the beginning of this conversation about "separation" it is not doable under the current social system models

    So the question remains: what is doable ?

    Replies: @S

    , @S
    @S

    In 2019 the 'progressive' (so called) Elizabeth Warren would launch her 2020 election bid from Lawrence 'Immigrant City', Mass. Yes, that's it's official nickname.



    The powerful Lawrence family of Massachusetts textile factory magnates who had financed the construction of Lawrence, Mass, a factory town in the 1840's located in a region which soon would soon see the local Anglo-Saxon farmer's daughters (the 'Yankee girls') who had been doing the work there displaced by imported alien wage slaves (ie 'cheap labor'), would also in the 1850's finance the construction of the infamous abolition center of Lawrence 'Bleeding', Kansas, as part of a drive by Northern industrialists to force the South to adopt the North's wage slavery (ie so called 'cheap labor') system.

    Latter 1850's 'Bleeding' Kansas, where pro chattel and wage slave forces of the South and North respectively fought for control of the territory, would be a micro-cosm of the coming US Civil War.

    New England had been a primary slave trading center in British North America.

    The historic ties between slavery, both chattel and wage, and 'progressivism', are deeply rooted and ongoing.

    https://www.rollingstone.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/shutterstock_10100306c.jpg

    Sen. Elizabeth Warren (D-MA) waves to supporters as she takes the stage during an event to formally launch her presidential campaign, in Lawrence, Mass.


    BEFORE A GATHERED crowd of supporters in Lawrence, Mass., Sen. Elizabeth Warren (D-MA) announced her candidacy for president, framing her campaign as a “fight of our lives.”

    “This is the fight of our lives. The fight to build an America where dreams are possible, an America that works for everyone,” Warren said. “I am in that fight all the way. And that is why I stand here today: to declare that I am a candidate for President of the United States of America.”

    In her announcement speech, Warren was critical of the political establishment, calling the government a “rigged system that props up the rich and the powerful and kicks dirt on everyone else.” If elected, Warren promised to “clean up Washington, change rules in our economy, [and] change rules to strengthen our democracy.”

    Warren also criticized President Donald Trump, although she did not name him: “The man in the White House is not the cause of what is broken, he is just the latest and most extreme symptom of what’s gone wrong in America,” Warren said.
     
    https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/warren-announces-presidential-campaign-792482/

    Replies: @songbird

  196. @AP
    @Another Polish Perspective


    Again, deeming someone “dangerous” from behind the desk is not about health. You think too much in terms of “hygiene” etc
     
    I’m not familiar with details about the German system. Presumably it involves a reasonable evaluation of risk. So if someone throughout his incarceration showed a high level of violence such that it would be reasonable to conclude that an innocent person would be harmed if he were released after the sentence concludes, then the release will be postponed. If that’s how it is than it reasonable.

    Is that how it is?

    You cannot usurp the competence of God (here: judging future) – why not kill a person instead of keeping him forever locked anyway since you “know” they will be criminal forever
     
    I don't equate prison with death and presumably the person is kept after his sentence only if he is deemed a reasonable risk of harming others after his release (like if he’s a guy who was violent while in prison and is threatening to be violent after he gets out). So he can be released if he settles down.

    Replies: @Another Polish Perspective, @Another Polish Perspective

    Is that how it is?

    No, it isn’t. Being violent inside a prison is not essential for getting Sicherheitsverwahrung.
    From German article I once read on it, the nature of your crime, how heinous it was, is more important. However, there are no clear rules – the courts in the conservative South Germany order it more often than courts in the East or the North Germany.

    It is more about that they see your mind as a depraved (not as you see the poor, but in this direction), I would say – a depraved person does not have to be inherently violent too. There is psychological assessment every couple of years, but is kind of cursory, and tends to be negative since it is much easier to leave man in prison than to let him out. Germany has a culture of conformity, especially among state officials, and they tend to confirm each other decisions. In practice such men get out of prison when they are already old – like 60, 70 years old, since then you can say “they are too old for a crime”. Some of them die in prison too.

    My point was that it was introduced by Nazis, who, as we know, were a party of deterministic racism. They saw such a criminal as a bad specimen of race, nowadays Germans see him as a bad specimen of humanity, but determinism stayed.

    • Replies: @Another Polish Perspective
    @Another Polish Perspective

    Well, the nature of your crime is essential and not your conduct in prison since a court orders Sicherheitsverwahrung as a part of your sentence (but not as a part of your punishment), so you can get for example 15 years prison time + Sicherheitsverwahrung, which starts after these 15 years. You can also have your sentence later commuted to let's say, 10 years, but that does not change Sicherheitsverwahrung, which will start after these 10 years. To understand this, you must remember that Sicherheitsverwahrung legally [i.e. under German law ] is not a punishment, but a "measure taken for protection of security". It is like being kept in forensic psychiatry without having psychiatric diagnosis.
    ECHR did not agree with this German argumentation and saw it as punishment without crime, which I fully agree with.

  197. @Mikel
    @AP


    They misunderstand it when they don’t read the entire passage, and as a result get a false meaning based on a snippet. Here is the full one:
     
    Thank you for providing a larger part of the passage (albeit not the full one). But unfortunately I don't see how the sentence you have highlighted contradicts the clear meaning of the previous one.

    There is no logical connection between the sentence “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible” and rich people being able to enter the Kingdom of God after he had already declared that this was more difficult than for a camel to go through the eye of a needle (arguably the largest animal and the smallest hole known to Jesus' contemporaries).

    The sentence you have highlighted is just the standard proclamation of God's omnipotence in the Abrahamic religions but the earlier sentence recalled by Matthew, who is supposed to be a direct witness of the conversation, is a specific statement about who will be able to enter the Kingdom of that omnipotent God and how extremely difficult it will be for those who don't renounce their riches.

    In fact, if one is to doubt what Jesus really meant with what Matthew put in his mouth (and let's not forget, the Church decided to validate as his real words), it is more helpful to read the part of the passage before those words:

    16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

    17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

    18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,

    19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

    20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?

    21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

    22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.

    23 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.

    24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
     
    https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2019&version=KJV

    In other words, even virtuous people who had committed no sin would not be worthy of entering Heaven, according to Jesus, if they didn't abandon their wealth and embrace poverty. If anything, the full context of the passage strengthens rather than weakens Jesus' threat to rich people. Not that I sympathize with everything HMS has been saying but Matthew 19 looks like a total vindication of his ideal of poverty. It's little wonder that early Christians who read these passages and tried to follow them led lives of renunciation to earthly concerns.

    This full passage, by the way, is depicted in the Hollywood epic film The Greatest Story Ever Told. When I watched this part of the movie not long ago I remember feeling the same uneasiness as in my childhood. This virtuous man who went to Jesus asking for spiritual advice only received a terrible threat because he was unwilling to abandon his family and comfortable life.

    That Church officials have later tried to embellish or distort a passage that everybody is able to understand with no difficulty does not impress me much, to be honest. They did the same with cardinal commandments when they supported wars, crusades, plunder and immoral regimes.

    Replies: @AP

    Here is a lengthy discussion of Catholic attitude towards property and wealth:

    https://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=2944

    There is no logical connection between the sentence “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible” and rich people being able to enter the Kingdom of God after he had already declared that this was more difficult than for a camel to go through the eye of a needle

    It amends it. With man it is (basically) impossible for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of God but with God all things are possible. It seems rather clear.

    Moreover, salvation came to Zacheus, a rich man who gave only half of his possessions up and restored what he had swindled four-fold:

    https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%2019%3A1-10&version=NIV

    Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

    According to Catholic doctrine perfection is not necessary to enter the Kingdom of God because with God all things are possible.

    In other words, even virtuous people who had committed no sin would not be worthy of entering Heaven, according to Jesus, if they didn’t abandon their wealth and embrace poverty

    Indeed none of us are worthy. That’s widely understood and accepted.

    It’s little wonder that early Christians who read these passages and tried to follow them led lives of renunciation to earthly concerns.

    Far from all, and those who didn’t weren’t condemned for not doing so.

    From the linked article I provided:

    [MORE]

    “Again, in order to understand the severe tone in which the Fathers sometimes speak of riches and of its obligations, we must bear in mind that the social world in which they lived was greatly different from our own. The wonderful industrial developments that have taken place in modern times have led to an enormous production of wealth, the possession of which by private individuals rests on honorable titles. In the days of the Roman Empire, the acquisition of wealth was but too frequently secured by the spoliation of conquered lands, by extortionate tax collecting, by excessive usury, by the exploiting of defenseless widows and orphans, and by other dubious means. The result was that, in the popular mind, a certain stigma attached to the possession of great wealth. It was a popular saying, “the rich man is either an unjust man or the heir of one (dives iniquus aut iniqui heres).”

    And now numerous examples of early wealthy Christians not giving up all their wealth:

    The story of St. Peter’s release from prison indirectly shows that Mary the mother of John, surnamed Mark, lived in a house of considerable comfort. Cornelius, the converted centurion, distinguished for his liberality, was, and apparently remained, a man of means. In the Gentile churches, established by St. Paul and others, there is absolutely no trace of a communistic mode of life. Private ownership is implied both in the Agape or love-feast of the primitive Church of Corinth, and in the voluntary contributions collected in the churches of Asia Minor, Macedonia and Greece for the poor of Jerusalem. Among the devout converts of St. Paul were people of wealth, such as Crispus and Chloe of Corinth, Lydia, the seller of purple at Philippi, and Philemon of Colossae, whose runaway slave was the occasion of St. Paul’s beautiful letter to his Christian master.

    St. Basil, the life-long friend of St. Gregory, came also of a wealthy family. His parents owned property both in Pontus and in Cappadocia. A fair share of this property fell to St. Basil, who was one of ten children. He was still a young man when he adopted the ascetic life of a hermit. He sold the greater part of his patrimony and gave the proceeds to the poor. But that he might be assured a meagre income sufficient to meet his few daily wants, the family house, with the farm and a small number of slaves, was committed to the care of Dorotheus, his foster-brother, the son of his slave-nurse, on condition that he should pay St. Basil every year a fixed sum of money. Among the extant letters of the Saint are two that were written to an official of the province, asking him to see that this property of his foster-brother should not be exposed to excessive taxation.11 In other letters, we find him interceding for friends that their property may be saved from impending loss.

    Etc. etc.

    • Replies: @Mikel
    @AP


    With man it is (basically) impossible for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of God but with God all things are possible. It seems rather clear.
     

    According to Catholic doctrine perfection is not necessary to enter the Kingdom of God because with God all things are possible.
     

    Indeed none of us are worthy. That’s widely understood and accepted.
     
    Sorry, I am unable to twist my mind enough to find in Jesus' words the meaning that you assign them. In fact, I am not even sure what exactly you're saying those words mean.

    One thing we know about Jesus is that he was not exactly preaching to the erudite classes. He was rather interested in reaching the common people of Palestine so it is unlikely that he would have used ambiguous language. If we believe that he said what Matthew recounted, he likely meant that exactly.

    I would have been more open to the theory of his using hyperbole in that sentence or to different passages of the Gospel showing that he did see the possibility of rich people entering Heaven without first giving their riches to the poor. Not that inconsistency in a doctrine is something that I value much but I would have found it a better line of reasoning. That the full passage shows that he didn't really mean what he said in the famous camel sentence is quite unpersuasive to me.

    Replies: @Emil Nikola Richard, @Ivashka the fool, @AP

  198. @Ivashka the fool
    @Mikel

    Do you see magnetic radiation?
    Do you see the earth circling the sun ?
    Or does it seem to be the opposite ?
    Do you see photons with their wavelengths or colored light?
    The solid objects we hold in our hands are made of 99,9999.... % void and yet appear solid.
    And this void isn't really empty, because absent interference, it manifests quantum foam from the quantum field.
    Quantum foam which might in the final analysis be seen as much information as it is energy and which ends-up forming matter.
    Quantum fields which permeate the whole Universe.
    A Universe full of undetectable Black Matter.
    Nothing in this reality is identical to itself beyond a Planck time scale and yet we identify objects.
    You are not an individual, but a complex colony of specialized cells.
    These cells die and are produced by the million without you even noticing.
    Except for the neurons, most cells in your body have changed since you were born, and yet you're still Mikel.
    A lot of phenomena in this world of ours are not seen with the naked eye or heard of with the natural audition.
    A lot more are opposite to what our common sense dictates.
    Our senses are lacking in perception.
    So yes, your common sense is a belief system, a very crude one and on a purely physical grounds at that.
    We call it Ignorance.

    Replies: @Emil Nikola Richard, @Mikel

    And this void isn’t really empty, because absent interference, it manifests quantum foam from the quantum field.

    You fool!

    Did you see the Hal Puthoff Eric Weinstein flying saucer debate?

    • Replies: @Ivashka the fool
    @Emil Nikola Richard

    Yes it's me - The Fool!

    🙂

    Not yet, but I will look into it.

    Replies: @Emil Nikola Richard

  199. @S
    @Ivashka the fool

    You had asked on a previous post about what was driving mass immigration in to Europe.

    Below is an excerpt from pg 4 of an Oct, 2003 academic paper, which in part examined how corrupt elites and hangers on, either of one's own people and, or, alien, have historically been making a pretty penny from the value of the labor they are systematically stealing from the exploited 'immigrants' as wage slaves, and in turn use these same exploited people in a cynical divide and rule scheme against the non-exploiting general public, the vast majority.

    '...the immigrants usually serve three main functions: cheap labor to replace native groups; settlement on the frontier (periphery); and control over the natives and their land. These dynamics generally result in the maintenance of hegemony...'

    The failure to have dealt with chattel slavery and it's trade in a truthful manner in the 19th century by abolishing it as claimed, but instead to have monetized it with the introduction of wage slavery, ie specifically the so called 'cheap labor'/'mass immigration' system, has been a catastrophe of unprecedented proportions for the peoples of the world and for humanity as a whole.

    Actually truly caring about one's people, though ultimately edifying for all concerned, can be a pain in the arse at times. It's a lot easier, not to mention much more profitable, this way.

    Did I mention much more profitable?

    https://www.academia.edu/27219183/Between_urban_and_national_Political_mobilization_among_Mizrahim_in_Israel_s_development_towns_

    Replies: @Ivashka the fool, @S

    Yes. Profit making is the essence of Capitalism, therefore there’s nothing surprising here. OTOH Communism has demonstrated its complete inadequacy with human nature. Which leaves us with either controlled Capitalism under a Social Democracy watch, or if one is more intent on one’s own national survival, with National Socialism. Neither Social Democracy, nor National Socialism, nor some hybrid system combining both would be acceptable to current elites. They have vilified and anathemized these models, which leaves us with no adequate social system to remediate the effects of what you call wage slavery.

    As I wrote to Sylvio at the beginning of this conversation about “separation” it is not doable under the current social system models

    So the question remains: what is doable ?

    • Replies: @S
    @Ivashka the fool


    As I wrote to Sylvio at the beginning of this conversation about “separation” it is not doable under the current social system models

    So the question remains: what is doable ?
     
    It's late in the day no doubt, and the situation is bad, but there are things which can be done.



    1) Get with others and define what your wanting to preserve as a people, physically, and, or, culturally. Form pacts with these others about parameters of behaviour and conduct which will work towards accomplishing this preservation.

    There's room for different groups of Euros doing this, who can at least some of the time be allies. It doesn't have to be a monolithic, one size fits all, effort.

    Talk to non-Euros who, if not necessarily allies, won't stand in the way.

    2) Confront those of your own who might be importing wage slaves (ie cheap labor) rather than employing their own. If they persist do not patronize their businesses, or interact with them socially. Let them know this is being done and it is costing them.

    3) Work towards a separation of those who do think the preservation of peoples is a worthwhile endeavor, and those who don't care, and (imo) are parasiting on those that do care. This is a big divide within humanity. The world is a big place, however.

    4) Strive to do your own work and/or hire your own.

    It won't be easy and the odds are terrible. However, look at the Amish in the United States. After decades of only small numbers, there population is exploding. Note; They do their own work, and don't invite wage slaves (cheap labor) into their communities, where they then simply discard them.

    5) Amicable if at all possible separation of Euro peoples and the Jewish people. Another people, no matter how well meaning they might be, can run the affairs of another, the same as it is with individuals. To do otherwise is dysfunctional. Euro peoples need to be responsible for and run their own affairs.

    Finally, act.

    Replies: @Ivashka the fool

  200. @Emil Nikola Richard
    @songbird

    THANK YOU FOR CLEARING THAT UP!!!!

    Replies: @songbird

    Some bog body somewhere with its nipples cut off. To state the obvious – the Comanches did that sort of stuff, but it is doubtful that they licked each other’s nipples. Rather, they ate them.

    [MORE]

    As far as I know, only one written source refers to it. It’s to do with St. Patrick. Some have stated this was calumny, but my own interpretation is that the language was influenced by pastoralism, and Patrick was trying to use the native idiom, and simply found something sacrilegious or inconvenient about making an oath to a man.

    What I think we can say for certain is that it was a highly patriarchal, warrior society, where long-bearded nobles were swathed in yards and yards of cumbersome and expensive (at least in those parts) fabric, and probably wouldn’t be undressing easily.

    But, if you are a fetishist and seeking other spurious excerpts from moldy medieval Irish manuscripts that may or may not refer to nipples – and here I must specify, am afraid it will have to be heterosexual (or, at least if you like MILFs) – then I would call your attention to the following passage, from the year 1451:

    [First, some necessary background, for plot: that year there was terrible famine in the land, and years afterward, it was called the “Summer of Slight Acquaintance” for friends and relatives commonly denied each other the gift of hospitality.

    Anyway, this broad called Mairghréag Ní Chearbhaill and my probable ancestress (that is, at least I connect to her husband) held two great feasts, one in the western part of the clan territory, and one in the eastern part, in order to facilitate people traveling to it, from allover Ireland. And this event was remembered many years afterward. It is a rather lengthy passage, but to jump to the good stuff…]

    …and Margrett on the garrettes of the greate church of Da Sinceall, clad in cloth of gold, her dearest friends about her, her clergy and Judges too, Calvagh himself [her husband] being on horseback on the churches outward side, to the end, that all things be done orderly, and each one served successively; and first of all she gave two chalices of gold as offerings that day to the Alter of God Almighty, and she also caused to nurse [Wowsa! Wowsa! Wowsa!] or foster two young orphans. But so it was that we never saw nor heard the like of that day, nor comparable to its glory [Wowsa! Wowsa! Wowsa!] or solace [Huh?]

    Better satisfy yourself with that because it is all I got.

    Personally, I doubt that she actually put two babes to her breasts, from a churchtower, but who knows? If you ever build a time machine, or steal one like elderly Biff Tannen in Back to the Future 2, you can find out. Maybe, it was some pagan survival – there was another famous noblewoman knicknamed the “Mother of Munster.”

    Anyway, you can read the whole passage here, if you want more… er… plot, begins at the entry for 1451:
    https://archive.org/details/miscellanyofiris00iris/page/227/mode/1up

  201. @Emil Nikola Richard
    @Ivashka the fool


    And this void isn’t really empty, because absent interference, it manifests quantum foam from the quantum field.
     
    You fool!

    Did you see the Hal Puthoff Eric Weinstein flying saucer debate?

    Replies: @Ivashka the fool

    Yes it’s me – The Fool!

    🙂

    Not yet, but I will look into it.

    • Replies: @Emil Nikola Richard
    @Ivashka the fool

    It is really good. Hal Puthoff makes the following outrageous claims:

    1. Lockheed has privatized classified physics unknown to the Stanford, Cal Tech, Cambridge, whatnot physics departments.
    2. His remote viewers had demonstrated command of future security prices and could make any amount of money you care to name.

    Weinstein respects, no idolatryizes any man with Puthoff's credentials but remains unconvinced. Item 2 moved him to making an argument which he thought irrefutable and Puthoff just shakes his head. Item 1 had him crying for his mama. (Well not quite but he was -><- that close.)

  202. @Another Polish Perspective
    @AP


    Is that how it is?
     
    No, it isn't. Being violent inside a prison is not essential for getting Sicherheitsverwahrung.
    From German article I once read on it, the nature of your crime, how heinous it was, is more important. However, there are no clear rules - the courts in the conservative South Germany order it more often than courts in the East or the North Germany.

    It is more about that they see your mind as a depraved (not as you see the poor, but in this direction), I would say - a depraved person does not have to be inherently violent too. There is psychological assessment every couple of years, but is kind of cursory, and tends to be negative since it is much easier to leave man in prison than to let him out. Germany has a culture of conformity, especially among state officials, and they tend to confirm each other decisions. In practice such men get out of prison when they are already old - like 60, 70 years old, since then you can say "they are too old for a crime". Some of them die in prison too.

    My point was that it was introduced by Nazis, who, as we know, were a party of deterministic racism. They saw such a criminal as a bad specimen of race, nowadays Germans see him as a bad specimen of humanity, but determinism stayed.

    Replies: @Another Polish Perspective

    Well, the nature of your crime is essential and not your conduct in prison since a court orders Sicherheitsverwahrung as a part of your sentence (but not as a part of your punishment), so you can get for example 15 years prison time + Sicherheitsverwahrung, which starts after these 15 years. You can also have your sentence later commuted to let’s say, 10 years, but that does not change Sicherheitsverwahrung, which will start after these 10 years. To understand this, you must remember that Sicherheitsverwahrung legally [i.e. under German law ] is not a punishment, but a “measure taken for protection of security”. It is like being kept in forensic psychiatry without having psychiatric diagnosis.
    ECHR did not agree with this German argumentation and saw it as punishment without crime, which I fully agree with.

  203. @Ivashka the fool
    @Emil Nikola Richard

    Yes it's me - The Fool!

    🙂

    Not yet, but I will look into it.

    Replies: @Emil Nikola Richard

    It is really good. Hal Puthoff makes the following outrageous claims:

    1. Lockheed has privatized classified physics unknown to the Stanford, Cal Tech, Cambridge, whatnot physics departments.
    2. His remote viewers had demonstrated command of future security prices and could make any amount of money you care to name.

    Weinstein respects, no idolatryizes any man with Puthoff’s credentials but remains unconvinced. Item 2 moved him to making an argument which he thought irrefutable and Puthoff just shakes his head. Item 1 had him crying for his mama. (Well not quite but he was -><- that close.)

  204. Will Austria joint Hungary as a sane EU country? (1)

    ‘Polling earthquake’ – Austria’s anti-immigration Freedom Party (FPÖ) is now country’s no. 1 party

    Austria has seen a record number of asylum applications in 2022. In fact, asylum applications nearly tripled from 2021, reaching nearly 60,000. The news has shocked Austria and led to a sharp backlash from a population highly skeptical of mass immigration. The FPÖ, more so than any other major party, has made immigration restriction central to their platform.

    At the same time, the FPÖ party is the only major party opposed to Russian sanctions, which it blames for creating inflation and economic turmoil in the Austrian and European economy. Many Austrians are sympathetic with this position.

    “It’s finally time to appear in the EU and say: These sanctions harm us much more than Putin. Our people have to foot the bill for them,” said deputy FPÖ chairwoman Dagmar Belakovich in the plenary session of the National Council last year.

    The party’s leader, Herbert Kickl, has also pointed to the absolute necessity of Russian energy for Austria’s households and businesses. He blames much of Austria’s inflation woes to economic sanctions on Russia.

    “If you were honest, you would have to say to the population: We can’t do without this Russian oil and gas for a long time,” said Kickl. “We need this cheap energy for households, for heating, for cooking, for hot water, for manufacturing companies.”

    This looks promising.

    However, let me repeat the caution that I have applied to the U.S. and other locations. A single win is only a first step. It takes successive administrations to lock in long term change.

    PEACE 😇
    __________

    (1) https://rmx.news/austria/polling-earthquake-austrias-anti-immigration-freedom-party-fpo-is-now-countrys-no-1-party/

  205. @S
    @Ivashka the fool

    You had asked on a previous post about what was driving mass immigration in to Europe.

    Below is an excerpt from pg 4 of an Oct, 2003 academic paper, which in part examined how corrupt elites and hangers on, either of one's own people and, or, alien, have historically been making a pretty penny from the value of the labor they are systematically stealing from the exploited 'immigrants' as wage slaves, and in turn use these same exploited people in a cynical divide and rule scheme against the non-exploiting general public, the vast majority.

    '...the immigrants usually serve three main functions: cheap labor to replace native groups; settlement on the frontier (periphery); and control over the natives and their land. These dynamics generally result in the maintenance of hegemony...'

    The failure to have dealt with chattel slavery and it's trade in a truthful manner in the 19th century by abolishing it as claimed, but instead to have monetized it with the introduction of wage slavery, ie specifically the so called 'cheap labor'/'mass immigration' system, has been a catastrophe of unprecedented proportions for the peoples of the world and for humanity as a whole.

    Actually truly caring about one's people, though ultimately edifying for all concerned, can be a pain in the arse at times. It's a lot easier, not to mention much more profitable, this way.

    Did I mention much more profitable?

    https://www.academia.edu/27219183/Between_urban_and_national_Political_mobilization_among_Mizrahim_in_Israel_s_development_towns_

    Replies: @Ivashka the fool, @S

    In 2019 the ‘progressive’ (so called) Elizabeth Warren would launch her 2020 election bid from Lawrence ‘Immigrant City’, Mass. Yes, that’s it’s official nickname.

    [MORE]

    The powerful Lawrence family of Massachusetts textile factory magnates who had financed the construction of Lawrence, Mass, a factory town in the 1840’s located in a region which soon would soon see the local Anglo-Saxon farmer’s daughters (the ‘Yankee girls’) who had been doing the work there displaced by imported alien wage slaves (ie ‘cheap labor’), would also in the 1850’s finance the construction of the infamous abolition center of Lawrence ‘Bleeding’, Kansas, as part of a drive by Northern industrialists to force the South to adopt the North’s wage slavery (ie so called ‘cheap labor’) system.

    Latter 1850’s ‘Bleeding’ Kansas, where pro chattel and wage slave forces of the South and North respectively fought for control of the territory, would be a micro-cosm of the coming US Civil War.

    New England had been a primary slave trading center in British North America.

    The historic ties between slavery, both chattel and wage, and ‘progressivism’, are deeply rooted and ongoing.

    Sen. Elizabeth Warren (D-MA) waves to supporters as she takes the stage during an event to formally launch her presidential campaign, in Lawrence, Mass.

    BEFORE A GATHERED crowd of supporters in Lawrence, Mass., Sen. Elizabeth Warren (D-MA) announced her candidacy for president, framing her campaign as a “fight of our lives.”

    “This is the fight of our lives. The fight to build an America where dreams are possible, an America that works for everyone,” Warren said. “I am in that fight all the way. And that is why I stand here today: to declare that I am a candidate for President of the United States of America.”

    In her announcement speech, Warren was critical of the political establishment, calling the government a “rigged system that props up the rich and the powerful and kicks dirt on everyone else.” If elected, Warren promised to “clean up Washington, change rules in our economy, [and] change rules to strengthen our democracy.”

    Warren also criticized President Donald Trump, although she did not name him: “The man in the White House is not the cause of what is broken, he is just the latest and most extreme symptom of what’s gone wrong in America,” Warren said.

    https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/warren-announces-presidential-campaign-792482/

    • Replies: @songbird
    @S

    To a certain extent, politicians are often victims of their own policy.

    To wit, a US Congresswomen for Massachusetts recently had her tranny son arrested for assaulting police in Boston:

    https://news.yahoo.com/child-rep-katherine-clark-arrested-025051735.html

    I know the neighborhood of another pol who used to be counted a high official. Ritzy place, but full of illegals doing yard work and maintenance. Guess that is how they found out about the local beach and took it over, even though they can't afford houses anywhere near and come down from places like Lawrence. Turned into a big problem. One guy who loved boating, moved from his dreamhouse, where his kids grew up because of it. They were making too much noise, and sometimes breaking into his house. Often there late into the night, even though it is supposed to be closed. Police can't do anything because it is a state park. Was a dead body found there not to long ago.

    One thing I realized last time I was in the area is that a lot of the roads are actually private ways. It is my theory that in 40-50 years time, they might build high fences around the whole neighborhood, and gate it off, to turn it into a safe enclave for the elite, even though such places do not exist around here yet.

    Replies: @S

  206. @Ivashka the fool
    @Mikel

    Do you see magnetic radiation?
    Do you see the earth circling the sun ?
    Or does it seem to be the opposite ?
    Do you see photons with their wavelengths or colored light?
    The solid objects we hold in our hands are made of 99,9999.... % void and yet appear solid.
    And this void isn't really empty, because absent interference, it manifests quantum foam from the quantum field.
    Quantum foam which might in the final analysis be seen as much information as it is energy and which ends-up forming matter.
    Quantum fields which permeate the whole Universe.
    A Universe full of undetectable Black Matter.
    Nothing in this reality is identical to itself beyond a Planck time scale and yet we identify objects.
    You are not an individual, but a complex colony of specialized cells.
    These cells die and are produced by the million without you even noticing.
    Except for the neurons, most cells in your body have changed since you were born, and yet you're still Mikel.
    A lot of phenomena in this world of ours are not seen with the naked eye or heard of with the natural audition.
    A lot more are opposite to what our common sense dictates.
    Our senses are lacking in perception.
    So yes, your common sense is a belief system, a very crude one and on a purely physical grounds at that.
    We call it Ignorance.

    Replies: @Emil Nikola Richard, @Mikel

    A lot of phenomena in this world of ours are not seen with the naked eye or heard of with the natural audition.

    Yes but we know about the examples that you have given precisely because we have strong evidence (typically 5-sigma+) of their existence. And still the scientific method requires us to remain skeptical about them.

    Compare that to a supernatural being for whom no empirical evidence exists but whose existence, conveniently, would calm our existential fear.

    • Replies: @Ivashka the fool
    @Mikel

    Would you care reading this when you have a moment and telling me what you thought of it ?

    https://ismailignosis.com/2014/03/27/he-who-is-above-all-else-the-strongest-argument-for-the-existence-of-god/

    If you don't see the point of investing your time into it, then don't.

    Replies: @Mikel

    , @AP
    @Mikel


    Compare that to a supernatural being for whom no empirical evidence exists but whose existence, conveniently, would calm our existential fear.
     
    For people who fear an inevitability or high likelihood of eternal Hell, atheism would conveniently calm such a fear.

    Replies: @Dmitry

    , @Coconuts
    @Mikel


    Compare that to a supernatural being for whom no empirical evidence exists but whose existence, conveniently, would calm our existential fear.
     
    Empirical evidence is evidence from sense experience. There can't be any evidence from sense experience to prove the existence of an omnipotent, omniscient first cause. It's not a question of thinking someday some evidence could in theory be discovered, that there can't be any just follows from empiricist epistemology.

    Replies: @Mikel

  207. @RSDB
    @AP


    It’s why I post from Catholic and Orthodox sources.

     

    Can you find a Catholic or Orthodox source that posits that the poor are worse people than the rich?

    Can you find a Catholic or Orthodox source which puts forward a method for the quantification of sinfulness?

    Canonized or beatified sources preferred, but not required.

    If you are not saying that, you should be aware that it is likely that impression of your meaning to which people are replying.


    As for public policy decisions, other people here, including you, are probably more qualified to discuss them than am I-- although that doesn't always stop me from opining. I primarily object here to using arguments from the relative quantified sinfulness of different groups of people.

    Replies: @Barbarossa, @AP

    If you are not saying that, you should be aware that it is likely that impression of your meaning to which people are replying.

    AP gives the overwhelming impression to me that he regards poor people as primarily social problems and not human beings. I also suspect that he doesn’t mean to come across quite like that.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @Barbarossa

    Nothing could be further from the truth. He's continually provided the opinion that these people need help from both a clinical and a spiritual point of view, but that they shouldn't be coddled and held up for some sort of special worship (like some SJW's seem to want). He's also indicated that he's personally worked with hundreds of these sorts of people in an inner city environment, so he's well qualified to make personal opinions on this matter. His religious views on the subject matter have biblical groundings, as he's used such sources to support his opinions. I leave room for divergent views from his opinions, as the subject matter indeed has some element of subjectivity to it.

    Replies: @Barbarossa, @RSDB

  208. @Mikel
    @Ivashka the fool


    A lot of phenomena in this world of ours are not seen with the naked eye or heard of with the natural audition.
     
    Yes but we know about the examples that you have given precisely because we have strong evidence (typically 5-sigma+) of their existence. And still the scientific method requires us to remain skeptical about them.

    Compare that to a supernatural being for whom no empirical evidence exists but whose existence, conveniently, would calm our existential fear.

    Replies: @Ivashka the fool, @AP, @Coconuts

    Would you care reading this when you have a moment and telling me what you thought of it ?

    https://ismailignosis.com/2014/03/27/he-who-is-above-all-else-the-strongest-argument-for-the-existence-of-god/

    If you don’t see the point of investing your time into it, then don’t.

    • Thanks: Yahya
    • Replies: @Mikel
    @Ivashka the fool

    Thanks for providing that link. Of course it is worth my time reading intelligent arguments that challenge my pessimistic viewpoint. Besides, you have allowed me to read a good summary of what David Bentley Hart, the author that I recently said to HMS I would read one day, has to say on the most important theological matter.

    Let me offer some random thoughts:

    - This looks like a more elaborate version of Thomas Aquina's Five Ways to prove the existence of God. I first learned about this argumentation at high school. Our teacher of philosophy spent a good time presenting Aquina's arguments and their criticism by later authors. I don't remember all the details but I do know that my conclusion eventually was that the argument was weak and self-fulfilling for someone who had already decided that God exists before engaging in such reasonings.

    - The whole argument, as presented in this webpage, rests on the initial premise (ie axiom) that all reality can be divided into conditional or unconditional. Why exactly? I see no rigorous proof or explanation of the axiom and it is totally essential to the argument, as the 7 sections of the article rely entirely on it.

    - I think that, like all sets of axioms, this one should also be subject to Goedel's incompleteness theorem, ie it cannot prove its own consistency. But I am very far from an expert in mathematics or logic so I'll let you and any interested reader decide if this take has merit: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del%27s_incompleteness_theorems

    - The God that results from this line of argumentation doesn't seem to have anything to do with the Christian God or the God of any religion that I know about. In fact, I see nothing in the God that results from this logical reasoning that has any particular relationship with homo sapiens sapiens, as opposed to anything else that exists in the physical realm. From a human perspective, the existence of this Unconditioned Reality is equivalent to no God at all. By itself it carries no promise of any salvation after death whatever we do or fail to do during our lives.

    Replies: @Sher Singh, @Ivashka the fool

  209. @Sean
    I think it is already clear that America is not giving Ukraine what it needs to go linear offensive. Ukraine is being supplied for mounting a static battle of attrition. The US objective is a slow but sure writing down of Russian conventional capacity. Russia is actually quite happy to go slow, because their methods are infantry assault groups using low skill but highly expendable excons. The Russian offensive is already on, its low pressure to prevent Ukraine getting ATACMs, GLSDB, Gray Eagle, F16, and other things needed for deep strikes and exploitation such as Abrams.

    Replies: @Greasy William

    It sounds like the West is going to supply Ukraine with advanced MBTs at some point. I don’t see Ukraine as capable of achieving any sort of breakthrough, however, so likely this is to show that they are giving Ukraine what it “needs to win” even while the West knows that Ukraine can’t achieve a military victory.

    What Ukraine needs is body armor, artillery, anti tank weapons, drones and air defense systems. Talk of tanks and F-16s is just a waste.

    • Replies: @Wokechoke
    @Greasy William

    I guess we get to see if the Russians handle their tank designs a little differently than the Serbs and Iraqis. Recall the Russians have been watching events like Desert Storm, Operation Iraqi Freedom and Germany's arming of Croatia and have updated their systems.

    , @Sean
    @Greasy William

    They are going to be getting a Hundred Leopard2 and Abrams now. What seems to have happened is that the Germans told the US, "if giving Ukraine Leopard2s is so morally right and safe for Germany, it should be be even more right and safe for America to give Abrams tanks, so we are not going to give Ukraine tanks unless you give them some of yours too".

    Replies: @Greasy William

  210. @Ivashka the fool
    @S

    Yes. Profit making is the essence of Capitalism, therefore there's nothing surprising here. OTOH Communism has demonstrated its complete inadequacy with human nature. Which leaves us with either controlled Capitalism under a Social Democracy watch, or if one is more intent on one's own national survival, with National Socialism. Neither Social Democracy, nor National Socialism, nor some hybrid system combining both would be acceptable to current elites. They have vilified and anathemized these models, which leaves us with no adequate social system to remediate the effects of what you call wage slavery.

    As I wrote to Sylvio at the beginning of this conversation about "separation" it is not doable under the current social system models

    So the question remains: what is doable ?

    Replies: @S

    As I wrote to Sylvio at the beginning of this conversation about “separation” it is not doable under the current social system models

    So the question remains: what is doable ?

    It’s late in the day no doubt, and the situation is bad, but there are things which can be done.

    [MORE]

    1) Get with others and define what your wanting to preserve as a people, physically, and, or, culturally. Form pacts with these others about parameters of behaviour and conduct which will work towards accomplishing this preservation.

    There’s room for different groups of Euros doing this, who can at least some of the time be allies. It doesn’t have to be a monolithic, one size fits all, effort.

    Talk to non-Euros who, if not necessarily allies, won’t stand in the way.

    2) Confront those of your own who might be importing wage slaves (ie cheap labor) rather than employing their own. If they persist do not patronize their businesses, or interact with them socially. Let them know this is being done and it is costing them.

    3) Work towards a separation of those who do think the preservation of peoples is a worthwhile endeavor, and those who don’t care, and (imo) are parasiting on those that do care. This is a big divide within humanity. The world is a big place, however.

    4) Strive to do your own work and/or hire your own.

    It won’t be easy and the odds are terrible. However, look at the Amish in the United States. After decades of only small numbers, there population is exploding. Note; They do their own work, and don’t invite wage slaves (cheap labor) into their communities, where they then simply discard them.

    5) Amicable if at all possible separation of Euro peoples and the Jewish people. Another people, no matter how well meaning they might be, can run the affairs of another, the same as it is with individuals. To do otherwise is dysfunctional. Euro peoples need to be responsible for and run their own affairs.

    Finally, act.

    • Replies: @Ivashka the fool
    @S

    It looks doable, but it will run into the whole system opposing it. And once the smart contract, CBDC, social credit are part of the system's toolkit, then everything you describe would instantly make someone targeted for economic and social destruction or literal physical elimination. BTW, automation would make a lot of people even more expendable. Which should logically upend the whole economy based in wage slavery. An awful lot of people would move from the potentially profitable consumer category into the miserable social burden category. Useless eaters consuming ressources...

    Capitalism is already undertaking a transformation to maximize its hold on the biosphere through boosting the power of technology. Ressources will be more important than people, power will be prized more than profit. The Machine would want to break free from this planet and go infecting the rest of the Universe. If we stand in its way, we will be crushed.

    Problem is conservatives are always a couple of decades late, their actions are always reactive, not proactive.

    When they get somewhere, the goalposts have already been moved by the progressive.

    Perhaps there's another course of action ?

    Replies: @Emil Nikola Richard, @S, @Coconuts

  211. @Sher Singh
    @songbird

    No refugee status or 'historic homeland in which you become a minority'. Not going to bother debunking or contextualizing the percentages & tfr data.

    Remember that Thulean supports the BJP and is angry at the repeated political defeats it's faced.

    At the hands of Sikhs no less.

    Will say that Sikh tfr is likely higher than Hindu & possibly Muslim when controlling for socioeconomic status, but anything below 5 is nothing to write home about.

    ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫਤਿਹ

    Replies: @A123

    Behold the Hand of God (civilian owned).

    PEACE 😇 through superior firepower 😎

    • Thanks: Sher Singh
  212. @S
    @Ivashka the fool


    As I wrote to Sylvio at the beginning of this conversation about “separation” it is not doable under the current social system models

    So the question remains: what is doable ?
     
    It's late in the day no doubt, and the situation is bad, but there are things which can be done.



    1) Get with others and define what your wanting to preserve as a people, physically, and, or, culturally. Form pacts with these others about parameters of behaviour and conduct which will work towards accomplishing this preservation.

    There's room for different groups of Euros doing this, who can at least some of the time be allies. It doesn't have to be a monolithic, one size fits all, effort.

    Talk to non-Euros who, if not necessarily allies, won't stand in the way.

    2) Confront those of your own who might be importing wage slaves (ie cheap labor) rather than employing their own. If they persist do not patronize their businesses, or interact with them socially. Let them know this is being done and it is costing them.

    3) Work towards a separation of those who do think the preservation of peoples is a worthwhile endeavor, and those who don't care, and (imo) are parasiting on those that do care. This is a big divide within humanity. The world is a big place, however.

    4) Strive to do your own work and/or hire your own.

    It won't be easy and the odds are terrible. However, look at the Amish in the United States. After decades of only small numbers, there population is exploding. Note; They do their own work, and don't invite wage slaves (cheap labor) into their communities, where they then simply discard them.

    5) Amicable if at all possible separation of Euro peoples and the Jewish people. Another people, no matter how well meaning they might be, can run the affairs of another, the same as it is with individuals. To do otherwise is dysfunctional. Euro peoples need to be responsible for and run their own affairs.

    Finally, act.

    Replies: @Ivashka the fool

    It looks doable, but it will run into the whole system opposing it. And once the smart contract, CBDC, social credit are part of the system’s toolkit, then everything you describe would instantly make someone targeted for economic and social destruction or literal physical elimination. BTW, automation would make a lot of people even more expendable. Which should logically upend the whole economy based in wage slavery. An awful lot of people would move from the potentially profitable consumer category into the miserable social burden category. Useless eaters consuming ressources…

    Capitalism is already undertaking a transformation to maximize its hold on the biosphere through boosting the power of technology. Ressources will be more important than people, power will be prized more than profit. The Machine would want to break free from this planet and go infecting the rest of the Universe. If we stand in its way, we will be crushed.

    Problem is conservatives are always a couple of decades late, their actions are always reactive, not proactive.

    When they get somewhere, the goalposts have already been moved by the progressive.

    Perhaps there’s another course of action ?

    • Replies: @Emil Nikola Richard
    @Ivashka the fool

    > Perhaps there’s another course of action ?

    Learn plumbing or wiring or carpentry.

    Alchemy if you are very clever.

    There are dozens of valuable skills robots will not ever be able to replicate in spite of the Bezos Musk delusions. They persist in their delusions, for one thing, because they never learned plumbing or wiring or carpentry. Barbarossa is the alpha monkey in karlinstan.

    Replies: @Ivashka the fool

    , @S
    @Ivashka the fool

    I hear what you are saying. The task is daunting. One can always find reasons to do nothing, however, and thus defeat themselves.

    I should add, the Anglosphere is clearly still the major base of operations for the drive for a world state. If enough people within the Anglosphere countries simply refused...

    The seemingly impossible has been done before.

    , @Coconuts
    @Ivashka the fool


    Capitalism is already undertaking a transformation to maximize its hold on the biosphere through boosting the power of technology. Ressources will be more important than people, power will be prized more than profit. The Machine would want to break free from this planet and go infecting the rest of the Universe. If we stand in its way, we will be crushed.

    Problem is conservatives are always a couple of decades late, their actions are always reactive, not proactive.

    When they get somewhere, the goalposts have already been moved by the progressive.
     
    You could maybe say that one 'silver lining' of this for the right wing will be that if a small minority come to control all of the technology needed to sustain human life and the majority of people become basically superfluous, progressivism will mostly have been refuted.

    I am thinking that one of the core beliefs of progressivism is the idea that collectively humanity can reshape the world and human nature itself in line with human desires and aspirations. The Polish philosopher Leszek Kolakowski called something like this the 'Promethean Voluntarism' at the core of Marx's ideas.

    But if humanity came to be dominated by technology and a minority of elite creators/controllers, it would be more like proving people like Auguste Comte and the Positivists correct, that impersonal laws shape human behaviour and society and there are limits as to how far they can be changed. The New Left (e.g. Marcuse) used to rage against this sort of Positivism.
  213. The German, British and American military might have a lot of Training accidents to explain now. Cavalry and tank regiments will be a little denuded by next Christmas.

    • Agree: LondonBob
  214. @AP
    @Another Polish Perspective


    Again, deeming someone “dangerous” from behind the desk is not about health. You think too much in terms of “hygiene” etc
     
    I’m not familiar with details about the German system. Presumably it involves a reasonable evaluation of risk. So if someone throughout his incarceration showed a high level of violence such that it would be reasonable to conclude that an innocent person would be harmed if he were released after the sentence concludes, then the release will be postponed. If that’s how it is than it reasonable.

    Is that how it is?

    You cannot usurp the competence of God (here: judging future) – why not kill a person instead of keeping him forever locked anyway since you “know” they will be criminal forever
     
    I don't equate prison with death and presumably the person is kept after his sentence only if he is deemed a reasonable risk of harming others after his release (like if he’s a guy who was violent while in prison and is threatening to be violent after he gets out). So he can be released if he settles down.

    Replies: @Another Polish Perspective, @Another Polish Perspective

    AP, I guess Sicherheitsverwahrung German style would be too much for you too, but what do you think about Anglo-Saxon style poorhouses..? Would you reinstitute them now? If not, what is a difference between your concept of helping the poor and poorhouses?

    One interesting data I did not find in the article below is the efficiency of the system, i.e. what was the percentage of those discharged as “reformed” and how long such a “reformation” would take.

    https://www.thestar.com/news/2009/01/03/when_poorhouse_wasnt_only_an_expression.html

    “You couldn’t just come and knock on the door of the poorhouse. You had to be accepted as the `deserving poor.’ It was the reeve and township council that decided who the deserving poor were,”

    “pauperism” was considered a moral failing that could be erased through order and hard work.”

    Hard work does not not mean efficient work, though:
    “In his native England, more than 100,000 people were swallowed up in work houses, funded by a “poor tax” on landowners and criticized for being costly and creating cycles of dependency.”

    “Handouts of food or clothing known as “outdoor relief” became common and, in New Brunswick, one solution was to auction off care of the poor to the lowest bidder at “pauper auctions” that were compared to slavery in the American south.”

    “While Canadian society has evolved and a sophisticated social safety net has developed to ease the burdens of those who’ve fallen on hard times, Dunlop is struck by how some attitudes toward poverty remain the same.

    “Sometimes when people go through the exhibit, they say `Things haven’t changed very much’ and I can understand their thinking,” Dunlop says.

    “They see, I think, the harshness and sometimes the judgments (society made about the poor.) I think we still carry that ideological base…that if you are not successful in work you are morally a failure. Those are strong roots in our western society.””

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poorhouse

    “In the early Victorian era (see Poor Law), poverty was seen as a dishonourable state. As depicted by Charles Dickens, a workhouse could resemble a reformatory, often housing whole families, or a penal labour regime giving manual work to the indigent and subjecting them to physical punishment.[2] At many workhouses, men and women were split up with no communication between them.

    (…)
    In the United States, poorhouses were most common during the 19th and early 20th centuries.

    (…)
    The poor farms declined in the U.S. after the Social Security Act took effect in 1935, with most disappearing completely by about 1950.”

  215. @Ivashka the fool
    @S

    It looks doable, but it will run into the whole system opposing it. And once the smart contract, CBDC, social credit are part of the system's toolkit, then everything you describe would instantly make someone targeted for economic and social destruction or literal physical elimination. BTW, automation would make a lot of people even more expendable. Which should logically upend the whole economy based in wage slavery. An awful lot of people would move from the potentially profitable consumer category into the miserable social burden category. Useless eaters consuming ressources...

    Capitalism is already undertaking a transformation to maximize its hold on the biosphere through boosting the power of technology. Ressources will be more important than people, power will be prized more than profit. The Machine would want to break free from this planet and go infecting the rest of the Universe. If we stand in its way, we will be crushed.

    Problem is conservatives are always a couple of decades late, their actions are always reactive, not proactive.

    When they get somewhere, the goalposts have already been moved by the progressive.

    Perhaps there's another course of action ?

    Replies: @Emil Nikola Richard, @S, @Coconuts

    > Perhaps there’s another course of action ?

    Learn plumbing or wiring or carpentry.

    Alchemy if you are very clever.

    There are dozens of valuable skills robots will not ever be able to replicate in spite of the Bezos Musk delusions. They persist in their delusions, for one thing, because they never learned plumbing or wiring or carpentry. Barbarossa is the alpha monkey in karlinstan.

    • LOL: Barbarossa
    • Replies: @Ivashka the fool
    @Emil Nikola Richard


    Alchemy if you are very clever.
     
    Sounds like a plan.

    🙂
  216. soooo…how many Soviet designed tanks did the Russians chew through if the west is now deploying their own tanks to make up for the damage? It must amount to 10,000.

    • Replies: @AnonfromTN
    @Wokechoke

    Possibly a lot fewer. Ukraine inherited lots of tanks from the USSR in 1991, but it sold most of them, with the money pocketed by various thieves now known as Ukrainian oligarchs.

    , @Mikhail
    @Wokechoke

    Get a load of this wishful thinking idealistic screed from a US establishment realist venue:

    https://nationalinterest.org/feature/germany%E2%80%99s-leopard-2-tanks-will-help-crush-russia-206149

    Jacob Heilbrunn has gone full Ben Hodges, as in off the wall berserk. Bookmark this observation as time passes and reality sets in.

    Tanks are only as good as experienced crews with a specific tank model (Kiev regime forces lacking experience with the Leopards) and the air support they get against a formidable opponent.

    As has been noted elsewhere, the Kiev regime is working on the destruction of a third army. Its arsenal of weapons was greatly eliminated en masse shortly after 2/24/22. Then came the destruction of the refurbished T72 tanks and other weapons it received.

    For accuracy sake, it's high time to stop the BS like the ones saying:
    - Russia is losing
    - the Kiev regime captured a lot of Russian tanks
    - Russia is running out of missiles
    - along with overly rosy forecasts for the deployment of HIMARS, Javelins and the latest salvo of wonder weapons.

    Replies: @AnonfromTN

  217. @RSDB
    @AP


    It’s why I post from Catholic and Orthodox sources.

     

    Can you find a Catholic or Orthodox source that posits that the poor are worse people than the rich?

    Can you find a Catholic or Orthodox source which puts forward a method for the quantification of sinfulness?

    Canonized or beatified sources preferred, but not required.

    If you are not saying that, you should be aware that it is likely that impression of your meaning to which people are replying.


    As for public policy decisions, other people here, including you, are probably more qualified to discuss them than am I-- although that doesn't always stop me from opining. I primarily object here to using arguments from the relative quantified sinfulness of different groups of people.

    Replies: @Barbarossa, @AP

    Can you find a Catholic or Orthodox source that posits that the poor are worse people than the rich?

    Poor are not inherently worse than rich, and they probably were better than the rich for much of history.

    But empirically, in modern times the poor on average engage in more sinful acts than do the middle and upper classes.

    Can you find a Catholic or Orthodox source which puts forward a method for the quantification of sinfulness

    No.

    This does not mean that a decent attempt can’t be made to quantify it using measurable behaviors. Crimes of theft and violence can be proxies for greed and wrath, respectively, obesity and substance abuse for gluttony, number of sex partners and children out of wedlock for lust, persistent unemployment for sloth.

    In most of these areas the poor in general do worse in general than do the middle and upper classes.

    So one can conclude that in general poverty is correlated with sinfulness although it is not a perfect correlation and there do exist many poor people who are more virtuous than many rich people.

    Here is a list of sinful behaviors and who commits them:

    [MORE]

    Wealthier people have higher marriage rates and lower divorce rates:

    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32886585/

    Wealthy people 7 times less likely to grow up and commit violent crimes than poor people in Sweden:

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4180846/

    Wealthier people less likely to kill their domestic partners in the USA, even when taking race into account:

    https://scholarworks.uni.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1009&context=ijghhd

    Poor people commit more of every type of crime in Toronto:

    https://storymaps.arcgis.com/stories/b5ab6df3741649c4bcc0a5fbd9e3b45b

    Both very rich and very poor had higher number of sexual partners than the middle classes:

    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32886585/

    Poor people more obese (thus, the sin of gluttony):

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7484407/#:~:text=Socioeconomic%20status%20(SES)%20is%20an,variable%20over%20time%20%5B2%5D.

    Poor adolescents more likely to commit all kinds of sex crimes than rich ones:

    https://heinonline.org/HOL/LandingPage?handle=hein.journals/ijotcc40&div=39&id=&page=

    Poorer people more likely to abuse various substances (this is more recent than the article Barbarossa lied to that suggested the opposite, in young people):

    https://sunrisehouse.com/addiction-demographics/socioeconomic-groups/

    Poor kids more likely to abuse drugs and engagen drug-related crime in Sweden:

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8247994/

    Wealthier occupations have fewer divorces:

    • Thanks: Yahya
    • Replies: @RSDB
    @AP



    Can you find a Catholic or Orthodox source which puts forward a method for the quantification of sinfulness
     
    No.
     
    Well, at least you are honest that these two interesting ideas are innovations of your own.

    Please ask your priest to review these two propositions:

    1. A reliable method exists for the quantification of sinfulness.

    and

    2. The poor have been worse people than the rich for the last two hundred years or so. [Change the time scale if you like on this one.]

    And tell us what he has to say about them or don't, that's up to you and him.

    I am not just saying this to win an internet argument, I am deadly serious about this. You may be in grave peril.

    Replies: @AP

    , @Wokechoke
    @AP

    Interesting notes on occupation and divorces. The financial penalty of divorce is very high for a man. He certainly won't seek it out if he can keep a mistress or a string of them and the wife will look the other way. See Bill Clinton.

    The overall sexual behavior of Doctors would be interesting to quantify given the easy access they have to a hareem of nurses who do have a very high rate of divorce.

  218. @AP
    @RSDB


    Can you find a Catholic or Orthodox source that posits that the poor are worse people than the rich?
     
    Poor are not inherently worse than rich, and they probably were better than the rich for much of history.

    But empirically, in modern times the poor on average engage in more sinful acts than do the middle and upper classes.

    Can you find a Catholic or Orthodox source which puts forward a method for the quantification of sinfulness
     
    No.

    This does not mean that a decent attempt can't be made to quantify it using measurable behaviors. Crimes of theft and violence can be proxies for greed and wrath, respectively, obesity and substance abuse for gluttony, number of sex partners and children out of wedlock for lust, persistent unemployment for sloth.

    In most of these areas the poor in general do worse in general than do the middle and upper classes.

    So one can conclude that in general poverty is correlated with sinfulness although it is not a perfect correlation and there do exist many poor people who are more virtuous than many rich people.

    Here is a list of sinful behaviors and who commits them:



    Wealthier people have higher marriage rates and lower divorce rates:

    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32886585/

    Wealthy people 7 times less likely to grow up and commit violent crimes than poor people in Sweden:

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4180846/

    Wealthier people less likely to kill their domestic partners in the USA, even when taking race into account:

    https://scholarworks.uni.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1009&context=ijghhd

    Poor people commit more of every type of crime in Toronto:

    https://storymaps.arcgis.com/stories/b5ab6df3741649c4bcc0a5fbd9e3b45b

    Both very rich and very poor had higher number of sexual partners than the middle classes:

    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32886585/

    Poor people more obese (thus, the sin of gluttony):

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7484407/#:~:text=Socioeconomic%20status%20(SES)%20is%20an,variable%20over%20time%20%5B2%5D.

    Poor adolescents more likely to commit all kinds of sex crimes than rich ones:

    https://heinonline.org/HOL/LandingPage?handle=hein.journals/ijotcc40&div=39&id=&page=

    Poorer people more likely to abuse various substances (this is more recent than the article Barbarossa lied to that suggested the opposite, in young people):

    https://sunrisehouse.com/addiction-demographics/socioeconomic-groups/

    Poor kids more likely to abuse drugs and engagen drug-related crime in Sweden:

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8247994/

    Wealthier occupations have fewer divorces:

    https://i.imgur.com/9VHd1ys.png

    Replies: @RSDB, @Wokechoke

    Can you find a Catholic or Orthodox source which puts forward a method for the quantification of sinfulness

    No.

    Well, at least you are honest that these two interesting ideas are innovations of your own.

    Please ask your priest to review these two propositions:

    1. A reliable method exists for the quantification of sinfulness.

    and

    2. The poor have been worse people than the rich for the last two hundred years or so. [Change the time scale if you like on this one.]

    And tell us what he has to say about them or don’t, that’s up to you and him.

    I am not just saying this to win an internet argument, I am deadly serious about this. You may be in grave peril.

    • Replies: @AP
    @RSDB


    Well, at least you are honest that these two interesting ideas are innovations of your own.
     
    I am always honest on here.

    "Please ask your priest to review these two propositions:"

    1. A reliable method exists for the quantification of sinfulness.
     
    I'm not sure a priest would be qualified to answer this one. A sociologist, perhaps?

    One can list behaviors associated with sins and see which ones are measurable. I did that in a very rough way.

    2. The poor have been worse people than the rich for the last two hundred years or so. [Change the time scale if you like on this one.]
     
    I don't agree with this statement. A more accurate phrasing would be that "poor people have engaged in more sinful behaviors on average in the last 200 years or so*, which implies that they are on average more sinful." We are all of equal worth in God's eyes, God loves sinners too.

    There is some kind of line between describing someone as engaging in more wickedness or even someone being internally more prone to sin (as demonstrated by a pattern of sinful behavior), while not denying him his basic worth, writing him off.

    The former is acceptable, the latter unacceptable.

    I am not just saying this to win an internet argument, I am deadly serious about this. You may be in grave peril.
     
    I appreciate it. Sincerely.


    * One can exclude periods of war, famine or social upheaval

    Replies: @RSDB

  219. @AP
    @RSDB


    Can you find a Catholic or Orthodox source that posits that the poor are worse people than the rich?
     
    Poor are not inherently worse than rich, and they probably were better than the rich for much of history.

    But empirically, in modern times the poor on average engage in more sinful acts than do the middle and upper classes.

    Can you find a Catholic or Orthodox source which puts forward a method for the quantification of sinfulness
     
    No.

    This does not mean that a decent attempt can't be made to quantify it using measurable behaviors. Crimes of theft and violence can be proxies for greed and wrath, respectively, obesity and substance abuse for gluttony, number of sex partners and children out of wedlock for lust, persistent unemployment for sloth.

    In most of these areas the poor in general do worse in general than do the middle and upper classes.

    So one can conclude that in general poverty is correlated with sinfulness although it is not a perfect correlation and there do exist many poor people who are more virtuous than many rich people.

    Here is a list of sinful behaviors and who commits them:



    Wealthier people have higher marriage rates and lower divorce rates:

    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32886585/

    Wealthy people 7 times less likely to grow up and commit violent crimes than poor people in Sweden:

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4180846/

    Wealthier people less likely to kill their domestic partners in the USA, even when taking race into account:

    https://scholarworks.uni.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1009&context=ijghhd

    Poor people commit more of every type of crime in Toronto:

    https://storymaps.arcgis.com/stories/b5ab6df3741649c4bcc0a5fbd9e3b45b

    Both very rich and very poor had higher number of sexual partners than the middle classes:

    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32886585/

    Poor people more obese (thus, the sin of gluttony):

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7484407/#:~:text=Socioeconomic%20status%20(SES)%20is%20an,variable%20over%20time%20%5B2%5D.

    Poor adolescents more likely to commit all kinds of sex crimes than rich ones:

    https://heinonline.org/HOL/LandingPage?handle=hein.journals/ijotcc40&div=39&id=&page=

    Poorer people more likely to abuse various substances (this is more recent than the article Barbarossa lied to that suggested the opposite, in young people):

    https://sunrisehouse.com/addiction-demographics/socioeconomic-groups/

    Poor kids more likely to abuse drugs and engagen drug-related crime in Sweden:

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8247994/

    Wealthier occupations have fewer divorces:

    https://i.imgur.com/9VHd1ys.png

    Replies: @RSDB, @Wokechoke

    Interesting notes on occupation and divorces. The financial penalty of divorce is very high for a man. He certainly won’t seek it out if he can keep a mistress or a string of them and the wife will look the other way. See Bill Clinton.

    The overall sexual behavior of Doctors would be interesting to quantify given the easy access they have to a hareem of nurses who do have a very high rate of divorce.

  220. @RSDB
    @AP


    We can not measure what is in people’s hearts but we can infer it by statistics
     
    What would you have inferred about the young man, the Pharisee, and the publican respectively?

    I describe, but do not judge.
     
    What is inferring what is in someone's heart?

    I agree completely.
     
    Yes, I think that we disagree mainly on words.

    My main problem is with the idea of the quantification of sin. For instance: you discussed earlier the way the system in California encourages delinquency and officials profit from that. Taking that on its face, as I have no reason not to, are not the people involved in creating and running that system, who lead comfortable lives and probably do not often shiv anybody themselves, taking an advantage which almost certainly involves sin or, to be a bit more precise, at the very least material cooperation in sin on their part? And would that culpability not be magnified by the responsibility of their position*?

    Of the four "sins which cry to heaven for vengeance", two cannot be committed by the destitute at all, and one of the remaining two is likely no more common among them than among their social superiors.

    *You will perhaps accuse me of judging them and the irony has not escaped me. However, we are considering here only a specific aspect, not the entire state of their souls. I think this is where the confusion comes in when discussing "judging" and I may be reacting to a mistaken reading of your meaning.

    Replies: @AP

    AP gives the overwhelming impression to me that he regards poor people as primarily social problems

    Sins are often social problems and ameliorating them also helps people who commit them (and also their victims).

    What would you have inferred about the young man, the Pharisee, and the publican respectively?

    In Biblical times the rich came by their wealth usually through evil means or inherited their wealth from those who did. So one would infer accordingly. *

    Fortunately we live in a society that has been Christian for many centuries, and circumstances are quite different.

    “I describe, but do not judge.”

    What is inferring what is in someone’s heart?

    An inference, not a judgment.

    I suppose “judgment” can mean different things. Clearly judgment in the sense of saying – “this is a sin” or “this person is lazy” or “this person has sinful intent” is not sinful, because the same Churchmen who condemn judging also identify people as such.

    But judgment in terms of condemning and rejecting people who engage in sin is clearly sinful. It seems clear that this is the type of judgment that is wrong.

    My main problem is with the idea of the quantification of sin. For instance: you discussed earlier the way the system in California encourages delinquency and officials profit from that. Taking that on its face, as I have no reason not to, are not the people involved in creating and running that system, who lead comfortable lives and probably do not often shiv anybody themselves, taking an advantage which almost certainly involves sin or, to be a bit more precise, at the very least material cooperation in sin on their part? And would that culpability not be magnified by the responsibility of their position?

    An excellent point. But such policymakers are far fewer in number among the non-poor than those who engage in theft, violence, drug abuse, etc. are among the poor. Moreover, some of them (and probably most of their voters) are well-meaning and think they are helping in some way, so their harmful behavior isn’t deliberate, there isn’t intent. This makes it different from taking a purse from someone or lying while begging that the money will be used for food when it will be used for a bag of heroin instead.

    You will perhaps accuse me of judging them and the irony has not escaped me

    I do not, because describing something is not judging (see previously).

    [MORE]

    * in order to understand the severe tone in which the Fathers sometimes speak of riches and of its obligations, we must bear in mind that the social world in which they lived was greatly different from our own. The wonderful industrial developments that have taken place in modern times have led to an enormous production of wealth, the possession of which by private individuals rests on honorable titles. In the days of the Roman Empire, the acquisition of wealth was but too frequently secured by the spoliation of conquered lands, by extortionate tax collecting, by excessive usury, by the exploiting of defenseless widows and orphans, and by other dubious means. The result was that, in the popular mind, a certain stigma attached to the possession of great wealth. It was a popular saying, “the rich man is either an unjust man or the heir of one (dives iniquus aut iniqui heres).”

  221. @AP
    @Mikel

    Here is a lengthy discussion of Catholic attitude towards property and wealth:

    https://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=2944


    There is no logical connection between the sentence “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible” and rich people being able to enter the Kingdom of God after he had already declared that this was more difficult than for a camel to go through the eye of a needle
     
    It amends it. With man it is (basically) impossible for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of God but with God all things are possible. It seems rather clear.

    Moreover, salvation came to Zacheus, a rich man who gave only half of his possessions up and restored what he had swindled four-fold:

    https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%2019%3A1-10&version=NIV

    Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

     

    According to Catholic doctrine perfection is not necessary to enter the Kingdom of God because with God all things are possible.

    In other words, even virtuous people who had committed no sin would not be worthy of entering Heaven, according to Jesus, if they didn’t abandon their wealth and embrace poverty
     
    Indeed none of us are worthy. That’s widely understood and accepted.

    It’s little wonder that early Christians who read these passages and tried to follow them led lives of renunciation to earthly concerns.
     
    Far from all, and those who didn’t weren’t condemned for not doing so.

    From the linked article I provided:



    “Again, in order to understand the severe tone in which the Fathers sometimes speak of riches and of its obligations, we must bear in mind that the social world in which they lived was greatly different from our own. The wonderful industrial developments that have taken place in modern times have led to an enormous production of wealth, the possession of which by private individuals rests on honorable titles. In the days of the Roman Empire, the acquisition of wealth was but too frequently secured by the spoliation of conquered lands, by extortionate tax collecting, by excessive usury, by the exploiting of defenseless widows and orphans, and by other dubious means. The result was that, in the popular mind, a certain stigma attached to the possession of great wealth. It was a popular saying, "the rich man is either an unjust man or the heir of one (dives iniquus aut iniqui heres)."

    And now numerous examples of early wealthy Christians not giving up all their wealth:

    The story of St. Peter's release from prison indirectly shows that Mary the mother of John, surnamed Mark, lived in a house of considerable comfort. Cornelius, the converted centurion, distinguished for his liberality, was, and apparently remained, a man of means. In the Gentile churches, established by St. Paul and others, there is absolutely no trace of a communistic mode of life. Private ownership is implied both in the Agape or love-feast of the primitive Church of Corinth, and in the voluntary contributions collected in the churches of Asia Minor, Macedonia and Greece for the poor of Jerusalem. Among the devout converts of St. Paul were people of wealth, such as Crispus and Chloe of Corinth, Lydia, the seller of purple at Philippi, and Philemon of Colossae, whose runaway slave was the occasion of St. Paul's beautiful letter to his Christian master.

    St. Basil, the life-long friend of St. Gregory, came also of a wealthy family. His parents owned property both in Pontus and in Cappadocia. A fair share of this property fell to St. Basil, who was one of ten children. He was still a young man when he adopted the ascetic life of a hermit. He sold the greater part of his patrimony and gave the proceeds to the poor. But that he might be assured a meagre income sufficient to meet his few daily wants, the family house, with the farm and a small number of slaves, was committed to the care of Dorotheus, his foster-brother, the son of his slave-nurse, on condition that he should pay St. Basil every year a fixed sum of money. Among the extant letters of the Saint are two that were written to an official of the province, asking him to see that this property of his foster-brother should not be exposed to excessive taxation.11 In other letters, we find him interceding for friends that their property may be saved from impending loss.

    Etc. etc.

    Replies: @Mikel

    With man it is (basically) impossible for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of God but with God all things are possible. It seems rather clear.

    According to Catholic doctrine perfection is not necessary to enter the Kingdom of God because with God all things are possible.

    Indeed none of us are worthy. That’s widely understood and accepted.

    Sorry, I am unable to twist my mind enough to find in Jesus’ words the meaning that you assign them. In fact, I am not even sure what exactly you’re saying those words mean.

    One thing we know about Jesus is that he was not exactly preaching to the erudite classes. He was rather interested in reaching the common people of Palestine so it is unlikely that he would have used ambiguous language. If we believe that he said what Matthew recounted, he likely meant that exactly.

    I would have been more open to the theory of his using hyperbole in that sentence or to different passages of the Gospel showing that he did see the possibility of rich people entering Heaven without first giving their riches to the poor. Not that inconsistency in a doctrine is something that I value much but I would have found it a better line of reasoning. That the full passage shows that he didn’t really mean what he said in the famous camel sentence is quite unpersuasive to me.

    • Replies: @Emil Nikola Richard
    @Mikel

    https://classictheology.org/2021/10/12/through-the-eye-of-an-actual-needle-the-fake-gate-theory/

    , @Ivashka the fool
    @Mikel


    (63) Jesus said, "There was a rich man who had much money. He said, 'I shall put my money to use so that I may sow, reap, plant, and fill my storehouse with produce, with the result that I shall lack nothing.' Such were his intentions, but that same night he died. Let him who has ears hear."

    (64) Jesus said, "A man had received visitors. And when he had prepared the dinner, he sent his servant to invite the guests.
    He went to the first one and said to him, 'My master invites you.' He said, 'I have claims against some merchants. They are coming to me this evening. I must go and give them my orders. I ask to be excused from the dinner.'
    He went to another and said to him, 'My master has invited you.' He said to him, 'I have just bought a house and am required for the day. I shall not have any spare time.'
    He went to another and said to him, 'My master invites you.' He said to him, 'My friend is going to get married, and I am to prepare the banquet. I shall not be able to come. I ask to be excused from the dinner.'
    He went to another and said to him, 'My master invites you.' He said to him, 'I have just bought a farm, and I am on my way to collect the rent. I shall not be able to come. I ask to be excused.'
    The servant returned and said to his master, 'Those whom you invited to the dinner have asked to be excused.' The master said to his servant, 'Go outside to the streets and bring back those whom you happen to meet, so that they may dine.' Businessmen and merchants will not enter the places of my father."
     

    http://gnosis.org/naghamm/nhl_thomas.htm

    There is a general consensus among scholars that the Gospel of Thomas – discovered over a half century ago in the Egyptian desert – dates to the very beginnings of the Christian era and may well have taken first form before any of the four traditional canonical Gospels.

     

    I think I know why the Church has rejected this Gospel...

    Replies: @Sher Singh, @RSDB, @Dmitry

    , @AP
    @Mikel


    Sorry, I am unable to twist my mind enough to find in Jesus’ words the meaning that you assign them.
     
    It's clear without twists.

    When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, “Who then can be saved?”
    Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

    When directly asked who can be saved, Jesus replied that with man it's impossible, but with God all things are possible.

    So with God a rich man can be saved, but without Him he cannot be.

    And indeed there is elsewhere an example from the Bible of a rich man, who did not give up all of his wealth but only half of it, and who was saved. Thus confirming that with God, everything is possible.

    Luke 19:1-10

    Jesus entered Jericho and was passing through. 2 A man was there by the name of Zacchaeus; he was a chief tax collector and was wealthy. 3 He wanted to see who Jesus was, but because he was short he could not see over the crowd. 4 So he ran ahead and climbed a sycamore-fig tree to see him, since Jesus was coming that way.

    5 When Jesus reached the spot, he looked up and said to him, “Zacchaeus, come down immediately. I must stay at your house today.” 6 So he came down at once and welcomed him gladly.

    7 All the people saw this and began to mutter, “He has gone to be the guest of a sinner.”

    8 But Zacchaeus stood up and said to the Lord, “Look, Lord! Here and now I give half of my possessions to the poor, and if I have cheated anybody out of anything, I will pay back four times the amount.”

    9 Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, because this man, too, is a son of Abraham. 10 For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost.”

    :::::::::::::


    That the full passage shows that he didn’t really mean what he said in the famous camel sentence is quite unpersuasive to me.
     
    Of course He meant what he said: that salvation is impossible for the rich man without God.

    Naturally you can choose not to see what is very clear, that God makes possible that which is impossible without Him.

  222. @RSDB
    @AP



    Can you find a Catholic or Orthodox source which puts forward a method for the quantification of sinfulness
     
    No.
     
    Well, at least you are honest that these two interesting ideas are innovations of your own.

    Please ask your priest to review these two propositions:

    1. A reliable method exists for the quantification of sinfulness.

    and

    2. The poor have been worse people than the rich for the last two hundred years or so. [Change the time scale if you like on this one.]

    And tell us what he has to say about them or don't, that's up to you and him.

    I am not just saying this to win an internet argument, I am deadly serious about this. You may be in grave peril.

    Replies: @AP

    Well, at least you are honest that these two interesting ideas are innovations of your own.

    I am always honest on here.

    “Please ask your priest to review these two propositions:”

    1. A reliable method exists for the quantification of sinfulness.

    I’m not sure a priest would be qualified to answer this one. A sociologist, perhaps?

    One can list behaviors associated with sins and see which ones are measurable. I did that in a very rough way.

    2. The poor have been worse people than the rich for the last two hundred years or so. [Change the time scale if you like on this one.]

    I don’t agree with this statement. A more accurate phrasing would be that “poor people have engaged in more sinful behaviors on average in the last 200 years or so*, which implies that they are on average more sinful.” We are all of equal worth in God’s eyes, God loves sinners too.

    There is some kind of line between describing someone as engaging in more wickedness or even someone being internally more prone to sin (as demonstrated by a pattern of sinful behavior), while not denying him his basic worth, writing him off.

    The former is acceptable, the latter unacceptable.

    I am not just saying this to win an internet argument, I am deadly serious about this. You may be in grave peril.

    I appreciate it. Sincerely.

    * One can exclude periods of war, famine or social upheaval

    • Replies: @RSDB
    @AP


    I appreciate it. Sincerely.
     
    Thank you. I was afraid I was overstepping my bounds. I do honestly value your appreciation.

    Please feel free to reformulate these two propositions in any terms you would like before putting them in front of your priest. But please do it. You don't have to take his advice, you don't have to tell me or anyone here about it, and it will not take much of your time. And he might agree with you.

    I’m not sure a priest would be qualified to answer this one. A sociologist, perhaps?
     
    I know some sociologists. If you put these propositions in front of your priest, I can put this one (A reliable method exists for the quantification of sinfulness) in front of a sociologist for you, if you like. I will be laughed out of the room, though, because sociologists don't generally do religious questions like "sin".

    Again, thanks for the polite reply. In case you were wondering, I was not implying that you were dishonest. I don't think that.
  223. @S
    @S

    In 2019 the 'progressive' (so called) Elizabeth Warren would launch her 2020 election bid from Lawrence 'Immigrant City', Mass. Yes, that's it's official nickname.



    The powerful Lawrence family of Massachusetts textile factory magnates who had financed the construction of Lawrence, Mass, a factory town in the 1840's located in a region which soon would soon see the local Anglo-Saxon farmer's daughters (the 'Yankee girls') who had been doing the work there displaced by imported alien wage slaves (ie 'cheap labor'), would also in the 1850's finance the construction of the infamous abolition center of Lawrence 'Bleeding', Kansas, as part of a drive by Northern industrialists to force the South to adopt the North's wage slavery (ie so called 'cheap labor') system.

    Latter 1850's 'Bleeding' Kansas, where pro chattel and wage slave forces of the South and North respectively fought for control of the territory, would be a micro-cosm of the coming US Civil War.

    New England had been a primary slave trading center in British North America.

    The historic ties between slavery, both chattel and wage, and 'progressivism', are deeply rooted and ongoing.

    https://www.rollingstone.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/shutterstock_10100306c.jpg

    Sen. Elizabeth Warren (D-MA) waves to supporters as she takes the stage during an event to formally launch her presidential campaign, in Lawrence, Mass.


    BEFORE A GATHERED crowd of supporters in Lawrence, Mass., Sen. Elizabeth Warren (D-MA) announced her candidacy for president, framing her campaign as a “fight of our lives.”

    “This is the fight of our lives. The fight to build an America where dreams are possible, an America that works for everyone,” Warren said. “I am in that fight all the way. And that is why I stand here today: to declare that I am a candidate for President of the United States of America.”

    In her announcement speech, Warren was critical of the political establishment, calling the government a “rigged system that props up the rich and the powerful and kicks dirt on everyone else.” If elected, Warren promised to “clean up Washington, change rules in our economy, [and] change rules to strengthen our democracy.”

    Warren also criticized President Donald Trump, although she did not name him: “The man in the White House is not the cause of what is broken, he is just the latest and most extreme symptom of what’s gone wrong in America,” Warren said.
     
    https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/warren-announces-presidential-campaign-792482/

    Replies: @songbird

    To a certain extent, politicians are often victims of their own policy.

    To wit, a US Congresswomen for Massachusetts recently had her tranny son arrested for assaulting police in Boston:

    [MORE]

    https://news.yahoo.com/child-rep-katherine-clark-arrested-025051735.html

    I know the neighborhood of another pol who used to be counted a high official. Ritzy place, but full of illegals doing yard work and maintenance. Guess that is how they found out about the local beach and took it over, even though they can’t afford houses anywhere near and come down from places like Lawrence. Turned into a big problem. One guy who loved boating, moved from his dreamhouse, where his kids grew up because of it. They were making too much noise, and sometimes breaking into his house. Often there late into the night, even though it is supposed to be closed. Police can’t do anything because it is a state park. Was a dead body found there not to long ago.

    One thing I realized last time I was in the area is that a lot of the roads are actually private ways. It is my theory that in 40-50 years time, they might build high fences around the whole neighborhood, and gate it off, to turn it into a safe enclave for the elite, even though such places do not exist around here yet.

    • Replies: @S
    @songbird


    I know the neighborhood of another pol who used to be counted a high official. Ritzy place, but full of illegals doing yard work and maintenance. Guess that is how they found out about the local beach and took it over, even though they can’t afford houses anywhere near and come down from places like Lawrence. Turned into a big problem.
     
    There's no free lunch with slavery.

    Whether it be chattel or wage, it literally destroys everything it touches, and wage slavery (ie so called 'cheap labor'), like a cancer that has metastasized, is slavery's more malignant and destructive manifestation.

    The US Civil War was a major missed opportunity. The guns should of been turned upon the elites of both the North and South, and not each other, and a true abolition of slavery, both chattel and wage, enacted.

    The elites with the preponderance of the power, in the North and South, then and now, only have cared first and foremost in not paying their own people the prevailing real time local rates for labor, and hook or by crook to escape doing so by importing alien wage slaves, whom they then cynically pit against their own in a divide and rule scheme.

    The unholy template for this can be found in chattel slavery and it's trade.
  224. @A123
    Response to previous thread:

    @LatW


    Frankly, I believe this Ukrainian demographic catastrophe (the forced exile of so many Ukrainians due to war) is so unjust and so dangerous that there needs to be some kind of an international effort (beyond just the help for the refugees) to mitigate this and help them repatriate. I think the unprecedented nature and the sheer scale calls for it.
     
    Elite EU leadership is about maximizing migrant inflows. Why would they help repatriate?

    The goal of EU corporations & banks is preventing repatriation. Can you name any significant German party (other than AfD) that would lead a return effort? Certainly, all three members of Scholz Traffic Light coalition would strenuously block such an idea.

    Pushing Zelensky to seek an immediate armistice would be ideal for repatriation. It would protect infrastructure in Ukraine's West. What is Elite EU leadership doing? They are trying to push heavy tanks into they fray, extending the fight, and making repatriation less likely.

    The whole thing feels like controlled opposition. Or, "Good Cop / Bad Cop".
    ____

    Knowing that Europe's leaders are against repatriation.

    How would an international effort form & function?

    The U.S. is going to be an internally focused "basket case" for the next couple years. So, no leadership available here. There is always the possibility to extract some cash, but that is different than authority towards a result.

    I suppose China & Turkey could run such an international effort. However, I am not sure they would be willing to step up in that manner. It would be highly visible with little opportunity for reward. And, they both have their own fractious domestic issues.
    ___

    As long as Europe's Elites are aggressively pro migration, refugees with Ukrainian identity documents are highly likely to stay. Many of the ~⅔ genuine Ukrainians you want to repatriate. And, almost all of the ~⅓ MENA origin using forgeries.

    PEACE 😇

    Replies: @LatW

    Elite EU leadership is about maximizing migrant inflows. Why would they help repatriate?

    Just because something has not been done before doesn’t mean it cannot be done, even on an ad hoc basis. This extraordinary war has created a novel situation where many new approaches could be put in place.

    I was talking about Ukrainians specifically, not all migrants into the EU, so let’s keep these separate (even if the repatriation of certain non-Ukrainians may be an issue as well). There is nothing in the EU that would keep Ukrainians from repatriating back to Ukraine, if they wanted so (as many of them do). The issue is purely technical – they are not able to return to their old homes and there is not enough housing for them in the Western parts of Ukraine that is readily available.

    [MORE]

    Knowing that Europe’s leaders are against repatriation.

    In the case of Ukrainians, they are not. They only oppose repatriation of non-Europeans, as far as I can tell. If you want to push another one your anti-EU lies, then I can’t help you.

    How would an international effort form & function?

    Because Ukraine is so deeply affected by the war, their government may not be able to fully organize this repatriation and are probably hoping and relying on the refugees own initiative to return. But there needs to be a more concerted effort. This would be tied to reconstruction when the time comes and possibly some construction of new housing already now in the more peaceful areas. The way it could function is the way that the current volunteer networks are already functioning. Ukraine’s current closes allies could help.

    The U.S. is going to be an internally focused “basket case” for the next couple years. So, no leadership available here.

    I agree that the US has a leadership problem. But I wasn’t thinking of the US here, but more of Europe & the UK. Those refugees who are in the US, I don’t have much hope of repatriating them, as it may be too difficult already.

    As long as Europe’s Elites are aggressively pro migration, refugees with Ukrainian identity documents are highly likely to stay.

    If they had readily available housing in the peaceful areas of Ukraine as well as means to get by, a large chunk of them would be willing to return.

    Another option in more general terms, would be to create an E. European political group that would explicitly request the Western countries not to source Eastern European doctors and nurses (and even other vital professions). Yes, this does go against the idea of free movement of labor, but it can also be argued that EEs (including Ukraine) should not be strip mined in that manner (or should be compensated because the movement is too one sided and it is the EE countries who prepare these specialists).

    Pushing Zelensky to seek an immediate armistice would be ideal for repatriation. It would protect infrastructure in Ukraine’s West. What is Elite EU leadership doing? They are trying to push heavy tanks into they fray, extending the fight, and making repatriation less likely.

    To not support Ukraine is out of the question – the decision has been made to preserve Ukraine’s statehood. It is no longer likely that West Ukraine (or even the majority of the center of the country) will be bombed out. It is possible that the hot phase of the war will be over by the end of the year, thus the repatriation efforts could be commenced (in fact, this could already be done now).

    Of course, the Ukrainian refugees are welcome to stay for as long as they need to.

    And, almost all of the ~⅓ MENA origin using forgeries.

    From what I understand, there is some filtering going on of MENA’s who are pretending to be Ukrainian. Every person should be checked (this is the procedure anyway). I have heard that some have been sent to their country of origin.

    • Replies: @A123
    @LatW


    Just because something has not been done before doesn’t mean it cannot be done
     
    There is a first time for everything. However, there are usually signs & effort leading up to such events.

    Is there any sign that Scholz and Macron are changing?

    I was talking about Ukrainians specifically, not all migrants into the EU, so let’s keep these separate (even if the repatriation of certain non-Ukrainians may be an issue as well).
     
    At a minimum Ukrainian document holders need to be talked about as a whole. That means that vast numbers of MENA migrants with forged papers will be impacted by any EU scheme.

    There is nothing in the EU that would keep Ukrainians from repatriating back to Ukraine, if they wanted so (as many of them do).
     
    If large numbers of authentic Ukrainians leave, the fiction of MENA origin "Ukrainians" becomes more visible. While there is nothing preventing repatriation, EU Elites have a vested interest in discouraging it.

    Creating an unfunded demand for services in frontier countries also strengthens Brussels 'authoritarian liberalism'.

    The issue is purely technical – they are not able to return to their old homes and there is not enough housing for them in the Western parts of Ukraine that is readily available.
     
    They also need an end to the fighting, functioning infrastructure, and jobs.

    Continuing to escalate (e.g. Leopard tanks) is clearly a hazard to the first two. And, long term economic disruption is known to be bad for jobs.

    If EU leaders were interested in repatriation as a priority, then the first essential step is an armistice. The fact that the EU is not interested in any cessation of hostilities is a strong indication that they have no interest in reducing the current number of refugees.

    PEACE 😇
  225. @Mikel
    @AP


    With man it is (basically) impossible for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of God but with God all things are possible. It seems rather clear.
     

    According to Catholic doctrine perfection is not necessary to enter the Kingdom of God because with God all things are possible.
     

    Indeed none of us are worthy. That’s widely understood and accepted.
     
    Sorry, I am unable to twist my mind enough to find in Jesus' words the meaning that you assign them. In fact, I am not even sure what exactly you're saying those words mean.

    One thing we know about Jesus is that he was not exactly preaching to the erudite classes. He was rather interested in reaching the common people of Palestine so it is unlikely that he would have used ambiguous language. If we believe that he said what Matthew recounted, he likely meant that exactly.

    I would have been more open to the theory of his using hyperbole in that sentence or to different passages of the Gospel showing that he did see the possibility of rich people entering Heaven without first giving their riches to the poor. Not that inconsistency in a doctrine is something that I value much but I would have found it a better line of reasoning. That the full passage shows that he didn't really mean what he said in the famous camel sentence is quite unpersuasive to me.

    Replies: @Emil Nikola Richard, @Ivashka the fool, @AP

    • Agree: Mikel
  226. @Mikel
    @AP


    With man it is (basically) impossible for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of God but with God all things are possible. It seems rather clear.
     

    According to Catholic doctrine perfection is not necessary to enter the Kingdom of God because with God all things are possible.
     

    Indeed none of us are worthy. That’s widely understood and accepted.
     
    Sorry, I am unable to twist my mind enough to find in Jesus' words the meaning that you assign them. In fact, I am not even sure what exactly you're saying those words mean.

    One thing we know about Jesus is that he was not exactly preaching to the erudite classes. He was rather interested in reaching the common people of Palestine so it is unlikely that he would have used ambiguous language. If we believe that he said what Matthew recounted, he likely meant that exactly.

    I would have been more open to the theory of his using hyperbole in that sentence or to different passages of the Gospel showing that he did see the possibility of rich people entering Heaven without first giving their riches to the poor. Not that inconsistency in a doctrine is something that I value much but I would have found it a better line of reasoning. That the full passage shows that he didn't really mean what he said in the famous camel sentence is quite unpersuasive to me.

    Replies: @Emil Nikola Richard, @Ivashka the fool, @AP

    (63) Jesus said, “There was a rich man who had much money. He said, ‘I shall put my money to use so that I may sow, reap, plant, and fill my storehouse with produce, with the result that I shall lack nothing.’ Such were his intentions, but that same night he died. Let him who has ears hear.”

    (64) Jesus said, “A man had received visitors. And when he had prepared the dinner, he sent his servant to invite the guests.
    He went to the first one and said to him, ‘My master invites you.’ He said, ‘I have claims against some merchants. They are coming to me this evening. I must go and give them my orders. I ask to be excused from the dinner.’
    He went to another and said to him, ‘My master has invited you.’ He said to him, ‘I have just bought a house and am required for the day. I shall not have any spare time.’
    He went to another and said to him, ‘My master invites you.’ He said to him, ‘My friend is going to get married, and I am to prepare the banquet. I shall not be able to come. I ask to be excused from the dinner.’
    He went to another and said to him, ‘My master invites you.’ He said to him, ‘I have just bought a farm, and I am on my way to collect the rent. I shall not be able to come. I ask to be excused.’
    The servant returned and said to his master, ‘Those whom you invited to the dinner have asked to be excused.’ The master said to his servant, ‘Go outside to the streets and bring back those whom you happen to meet, so that they may dine.’ Businessmen and merchants will not enter the places of my father.

    http://gnosis.org/naghamm/nhl_thomas.htm

    There is a general consensus among scholars that the Gospel of Thomas – discovered over a half century ago in the Egyptian desert – dates to the very beginnings of the Christian era and may well have taken first form before any of the four traditional canonical Gospels.

    I think I know why the Church has rejected this Gospel…

    • Agree: Barbarossa
    • Replies: @Sher Singh
    @Ivashka the fool

    Jester, do you eat beef &/or use tobacco?

    Replies: @Ivashka the fool

    , @RSDB
    @Ivashka the fool


    (63)
     
    This is very similar to Luke 12:16-20, and (64) has some similarities to Matthew 22:1-14, although it also has some significant differences. The last sentence ( Businessmen and merchants will not enter the places of my father) seems a little out of place in the context of the narrative; but it is very reminiscent of the famous story about the moneychangers in the temple, which appears in all four of the canonical Gospels (Mat. 21:12-13, Mark 11:15-18, Luke 19:45-46, John 2:13-17 or so).

    The account in John is probably closest: And in the temple there he found the merchants selling oxen and sheep and pigeons, and the money-changers sitting at their trade. So he made a kind of whip out of cords, and drove them all, with their sheep and oxen, out of the temple, spilling the bankers’ coins and overthrowing their tables; and he said to the pigeon-sellers, Take these away, do not turn my Father’s house into a place of barter. And his disciples remembered how it is written, I am consumed with jealousy for the honour of thy house.

    Replies: @Ivashka the fool

    , @Dmitry
    @Ivashka the fool


    Church has rejected this Gospel…
     
    The Church fathers sometimes compromised with wealthy people, which sometimes fund them, but they didn't always hide the teaching.
    https://ekzeget.ru/bible/3a-kniga-carstv/glava-21/stih-2/tolkovatel-amvrosij-mediolanskij-svatitel/
  227. @Ivashka the fool
    @Mikel


    (63) Jesus said, "There was a rich man who had much money. He said, 'I shall put my money to use so that I may sow, reap, plant, and fill my storehouse with produce, with the result that I shall lack nothing.' Such were his intentions, but that same night he died. Let him who has ears hear."

    (64) Jesus said, "A man had received visitors. And when he had prepared the dinner, he sent his servant to invite the guests.
    He went to the first one and said to him, 'My master invites you.' He said, 'I have claims against some merchants. They are coming to me this evening. I must go and give them my orders. I ask to be excused from the dinner.'
    He went to another and said to him, 'My master has invited you.' He said to him, 'I have just bought a house and am required for the day. I shall not have any spare time.'
    He went to another and said to him, 'My master invites you.' He said to him, 'My friend is going to get married, and I am to prepare the banquet. I shall not be able to come. I ask to be excused from the dinner.'
    He went to another and said to him, 'My master invites you.' He said to him, 'I have just bought a farm, and I am on my way to collect the rent. I shall not be able to come. I ask to be excused.'
    The servant returned and said to his master, 'Those whom you invited to the dinner have asked to be excused.' The master said to his servant, 'Go outside to the streets and bring back those whom you happen to meet, so that they may dine.' Businessmen and merchants will not enter the places of my father."
     

    http://gnosis.org/naghamm/nhl_thomas.htm

    There is a general consensus among scholars that the Gospel of Thomas – discovered over a half century ago in the Egyptian desert – dates to the very beginnings of the Christian era and may well have taken first form before any of the four traditional canonical Gospels.

     

    I think I know why the Church has rejected this Gospel...

    Replies: @Sher Singh, @RSDB, @Dmitry

    Jester, do you eat beef &/or use tobacco?

    • Replies: @Ivashka the fool
    @Sher Singh

    I prefer eating vegetarian when I cook for myself and I don't smoke. However, when I cook for other people, I usually try to cook something they would like and I never refuse a food someone has cooked for me. Ah yeah, I have nearly stopped drinking too. I only drink occasionally socially to not appear to other people that I try to act "hollier than them".

    Anything else you care to know ?

    🙂

    Replies: @Sher Singh

  228. @Emil Nikola Richard
    @Ivashka the fool

    > Perhaps there’s another course of action ?

    Learn plumbing or wiring or carpentry.

    Alchemy if you are very clever.

    There are dozens of valuable skills robots will not ever be able to replicate in spite of the Bezos Musk delusions. They persist in their delusions, for one thing, because they never learned plumbing or wiring or carpentry. Barbarossa is the alpha monkey in karlinstan.

    Replies: @Ivashka the fool

    Alchemy if you are very clever.

    Sounds like a plan.

    🙂

  229. @AP
    @RSDB


    Well, at least you are honest that these two interesting ideas are innovations of your own.
     
    I am always honest on here.

    "Please ask your priest to review these two propositions:"

    1. A reliable method exists for the quantification of sinfulness.
     
    I'm not sure a priest would be qualified to answer this one. A sociologist, perhaps?

    One can list behaviors associated with sins and see which ones are measurable. I did that in a very rough way.

    2. The poor have been worse people than the rich for the last two hundred years or so. [Change the time scale if you like on this one.]
     
    I don't agree with this statement. A more accurate phrasing would be that "poor people have engaged in more sinful behaviors on average in the last 200 years or so*, which implies that they are on average more sinful." We are all of equal worth in God's eyes, God loves sinners too.

    There is some kind of line between describing someone as engaging in more wickedness or even someone being internally more prone to sin (as demonstrated by a pattern of sinful behavior), while not denying him his basic worth, writing him off.

    The former is acceptable, the latter unacceptable.

    I am not just saying this to win an internet argument, I am deadly serious about this. You may be in grave peril.
     
    I appreciate it. Sincerely.


    * One can exclude periods of war, famine or social upheaval

    Replies: @RSDB

    I appreciate it. Sincerely.

    Thank you. I was afraid I was overstepping my bounds. I do honestly value your appreciation.

    Please feel free to reformulate these two propositions in any terms you would like before putting them in front of your priest. But please do it. You don’t have to take his advice, you don’t have to tell me or anyone here about it, and it will not take much of your time. And he might agree with you.

    I’m not sure a priest would be qualified to answer this one. A sociologist, perhaps?

    I know some sociologists. If you put these propositions in front of your priest, I can put this one (A reliable method exists for the quantification of sinfulness) in front of a sociologist for you, if you like. I will be laughed out of the room, though, because sociologists don’t generally do religious questions like “sin”.

    Again, thanks for the polite reply. In case you were wondering, I was not implying that you were dishonest. I don’t think that.

  230. @Sher Singh
    @Ivashka the fool

    Jester, do you eat beef &/or use tobacco?

    Replies: @Ivashka the fool

    I prefer eating vegetarian when I cook for myself and I don’t smoke. However, when I cook for other people, I usually try to cook something they would like and I never refuse a food someone has cooked for me. Ah yeah, I have nearly stopped drinking too. I only drink occasionally socially to not appear to other people that I try to act “hollier than them”.

    Anything else you care to know ?

    🙂

    • Thanks: Sher Singh
    • Replies: @Sher Singh
    @Ivashka the fool

    Start refusing cow and we can be friends.

  231. @Greasy William
    @Sean

    It sounds like the West is going to supply Ukraine with advanced MBTs at some point. I don't see Ukraine as capable of achieving any sort of breakthrough, however, so likely this is to show that they are giving Ukraine what it "needs to win" even while the West knows that Ukraine can't achieve a military victory.

    What Ukraine needs is body armor, artillery, anti tank weapons, drones and air defense systems. Talk of tanks and F-16s is just a waste.

    Replies: @Wokechoke, @Sean

    I guess we get to see if the Russians handle their tank designs a little differently than the Serbs and Iraqis. Recall the Russians have been watching events like Desert Storm, Operation Iraqi Freedom and Germany’s arming of Croatia and have updated their systems.

  232. @Ivashka the fool
    @Sher Singh

    I prefer eating vegetarian when I cook for myself and I don't smoke. However, when I cook for other people, I usually try to cook something they would like and I never refuse a food someone has cooked for me. Ah yeah, I have nearly stopped drinking too. I only drink occasionally socially to not appear to other people that I try to act "hollier than them".

    Anything else you care to know ?

    🙂

    Replies: @Sher Singh

    Start refusing cow and we can be friends.

  233. @Ivashka the fool
    @S

    It looks doable, but it will run into the whole system opposing it. And once the smart contract, CBDC, social credit are part of the system's toolkit, then everything you describe would instantly make someone targeted for economic and social destruction or literal physical elimination. BTW, automation would make a lot of people even more expendable. Which should logically upend the whole economy based in wage slavery. An awful lot of people would move from the potentially profitable consumer category into the miserable social burden category. Useless eaters consuming ressources...

    Capitalism is already undertaking a transformation to maximize its hold on the biosphere through boosting the power of technology. Ressources will be more important than people, power will be prized more than profit. The Machine would want to break free from this planet and go infecting the rest of the Universe. If we stand in its way, we will be crushed.

    Problem is conservatives are always a couple of decades late, their actions are always reactive, not proactive.

    When they get somewhere, the goalposts have already been moved by the progressive.

    Perhaps there's another course of action ?

    Replies: @Emil Nikola Richard, @S, @Coconuts

    I hear what you are saying. The task is daunting. One can always find reasons to do nothing, however, and thus defeat themselves.

    I should add, the Anglosphere is clearly still the major base of operations for the drive for a world state. If enough people within the Anglosphere countries simply refused…

    The seemingly impossible has been done before.

  234. @songbird
    @S

    To a certain extent, politicians are often victims of their own policy.

    To wit, a US Congresswomen for Massachusetts recently had her tranny son arrested for assaulting police in Boston:

    https://news.yahoo.com/child-rep-katherine-clark-arrested-025051735.html

    I know the neighborhood of another pol who used to be counted a high official. Ritzy place, but full of illegals doing yard work and maintenance. Guess that is how they found out about the local beach and took it over, even though they can't afford houses anywhere near and come down from places like Lawrence. Turned into a big problem. One guy who loved boating, moved from his dreamhouse, where his kids grew up because of it. They were making too much noise, and sometimes breaking into his house. Often there late into the night, even though it is supposed to be closed. Police can't do anything because it is a state park. Was a dead body found there not to long ago.

    One thing I realized last time I was in the area is that a lot of the roads are actually private ways. It is my theory that in 40-50 years time, they might build high fences around the whole neighborhood, and gate it off, to turn it into a safe enclave for the elite, even though such places do not exist around here yet.

    Replies: @S

    I know the neighborhood of another pol who used to be counted a high official. Ritzy place, but full of illegals doing yard work and maintenance. Guess that is how they found out about the local beach and took it over, even though they can’t afford houses anywhere near and come down from places like Lawrence. Turned into a big problem.

    There’s no free lunch with slavery.

    Whether it be chattel or wage, it literally destroys everything it touches, and wage slavery (ie so called ‘cheap labor’), like a cancer that has metastasized, is slavery’s more malignant and destructive manifestation.

    The US Civil War was a major missed opportunity. The guns should of been turned upon the elites of both the North and South, and not each other, and a true abolition of slavery, both chattel and wage, enacted.

    The elites with the preponderance of the power, in the North and South, then and now, only have cared first and foremost in not paying their own people the prevailing real time local rates for labor, and hook or by crook to escape doing so by importing alien wage slaves, whom they then cynically pit against their own in a divide and rule scheme.

    The unholy template for this can be found in chattel slavery and it’s trade.

    • Agree: songbird
  235. @Yahya
    @songbird


    What I did say, and what is true is that modern Greeks and Turks have a relatively high genetic distance for neighboring countries.
     
    Greeks are even more distant from Celtoids. Doesn’t stop you from taking vicarious pride in Greek accomplishments and pretending as if they belong to the same ethno-racial group as yourself. You probably don’t even have a single drop of detectable Greek ancestry, yet you presume to tell Turks, who are both descended from and genetically more related to modern and ancient Greeks; that they are just too distant from Greeks.

    Anyway, whatever the case, it is notable that the genetic distance is so high.
     
    It’s not high. Greeks are literally closer to Turks than just about 99% of people on the planet. On a regional PCA they plot in the same quadrant. On a global PCA they would practically be indistinguishable. That you cherry-pick France as the basis for comparison is deception par excellence.

    You are too obsessed with your cherished concept of “Europe” as a coherent ethno-racial block to understand that Greeks are closer to Turks than they are to Russians, Swedes, Englishmen, Irishmen, Germans etc. and most Europeans save for a few groups in the South.

    It’s almost as if some redneck teacher took you aside in your schooldays and said “well look it here birdie, this here Greece is located in Europe, so they are a huwite people. And this here Turkey is in Aysia, so they be folks of color down there." And you just took this as an eternal truth and carried it with you for the rest of your life. Maybe you are just too American to understand that the world exists outside of American racial conceptions.


    But that doesn’t mean that relatedness isn’t meaningful. [To give an extreme example: if a Swede misceginates with a Nigerian, then they are literally more genetically related to a random Swede than they will be to their own kids.
     
    Your argument reminds me of Hitler's idea that Slavs were "Mongolian" or "Turkoman" untermensch because they had some Asiatic genetic traces; instead of what they really were, which is people of the same racial stock as Germans, who on a global scale, were basically genetically indistinguishable.

    The East Asian admixture in Turks is not comparable to a mulatto Swede. The Turks are still 80%+ Caucasoid; how many Turks do you see with Asiatic features? Again, perhaps it is this one-drop rule you have acquired from being an American that has turned your brain into mush regarding this topic.


    Anyway, whatever the case, it is notable that the genetic distance is so high. And I don’t understand why you can’t seem to acknowledge that, and leave it at that. That was really what my original post was about.
     
    You're wrong on nearly everything on this topic. You don't understand genetics. You are ignorant about history. When I contradict your empty assertions with concrete facts; you lie, you deflect, you twist and you deceive. It is you who should admit error.

    You were right only once, towards the end when you admitted that your previous assertion that genetic distance caused tension may have been erroneous. Greek and Turkish enmity is a result of cultural and religious differences, not genetics. We can see that even with an almost identical group as Russians and Ukrainians; there is still conflict and hostility. Likewise, the English were as genetically close as you can get to the Irish, when they had their boots on them. Serbs and Croats - same in all aspects but religious sect. Indians and Pakistanis. The list goes on and on.

    Replies: @songbird, @AP

    Your argument reminds me of Hitler’s idea

    Whoa, you’re reading the H-man?!

    Likewise, the English were as genetically close as you can get to the Irish,

    This is what a lot of people say, when they want to dismiss the basis for genetic conflict. Afraid it doesn’t make any sense, if you actually spend more than five seconds thinking about it.

  236. @Ivashka the fool
    @Mikel

    Would you care reading this when you have a moment and telling me what you thought of it ?

    https://ismailignosis.com/2014/03/27/he-who-is-above-all-else-the-strongest-argument-for-the-existence-of-god/

    If you don't see the point of investing your time into it, then don't.

    Replies: @Mikel

    Thanks for providing that link. Of course it is worth my time reading intelligent arguments that challenge my pessimistic viewpoint. Besides, you have allowed me to read a good summary of what David Bentley Hart, the author that I recently said to HMS I would read one day, has to say on the most important theological matter.

    Let me offer some random thoughts:

    – This looks like a more elaborate version of Thomas Aquina’s Five Ways to prove the existence of God. I first learned about this argumentation at high school. Our teacher of philosophy spent a good time presenting Aquina’s arguments and their criticism by later authors. I don’t remember all the details but I do know that my conclusion eventually was that the argument was weak and self-fulfilling for someone who had already decided that God exists before engaging in such reasonings.

    – The whole argument, as presented in this webpage, rests on the initial premise (ie axiom) that all reality can be divided into conditional or unconditional. Why exactly? I see no rigorous proof or explanation of the axiom and it is totally essential to the argument, as the 7 sections of the article rely entirely on it.

    – I think that, like all sets of axioms, this one should also be subject to Goedel’s incompleteness theorem, ie it cannot prove its own consistency. But I am very far from an expert in mathematics or logic so I’ll let you and any interested reader decide if this take has merit: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del%27s_incompleteness_theorems

    – The God that results from this line of argumentation doesn’t seem to have anything to do with the Christian God or the God of any religion that I know about. In fact, I see nothing in the God that results from this logical reasoning that has any particular relationship with homo sapiens sapiens, as opposed to anything else that exists in the physical realm. From a human perspective, the existence of this Unconditioned Reality is equivalent to no God at all. By itself it carries no promise of any salvation after death whatever we do or fail to do during our lives.

    • Replies: @Sher Singh
    @Mikel

    Just consider everything sacred & experience divinity rather than trying to believe it.
    Common ritual, sacrality & mores are the basis of community.

    This idea of belief is entirely abrahamic & atheist


    https://twitter.com/EPButler/status/987375413700816896

    Replies: @Mikel

    , @Ivashka the fool
    @Mikel


    The God that results from this line of argumentation doesn’t seem to have anything to do with the Christian God or the God of any religion that I know about.
     
    Why should it have anything at all to do with that ?

    Truth is complete in and of itself.

    Human words are partial.

    Replies: @AnonfromTN

  237. @Mikel
    @Ivashka the fool

    Thanks for providing that link. Of course it is worth my time reading intelligent arguments that challenge my pessimistic viewpoint. Besides, you have allowed me to read a good summary of what David Bentley Hart, the author that I recently said to HMS I would read one day, has to say on the most important theological matter.

    Let me offer some random thoughts:

    - This looks like a more elaborate version of Thomas Aquina's Five Ways to prove the existence of God. I first learned about this argumentation at high school. Our teacher of philosophy spent a good time presenting Aquina's arguments and their criticism by later authors. I don't remember all the details but I do know that my conclusion eventually was that the argument was weak and self-fulfilling for someone who had already decided that God exists before engaging in such reasonings.

    - The whole argument, as presented in this webpage, rests on the initial premise (ie axiom) that all reality can be divided into conditional or unconditional. Why exactly? I see no rigorous proof or explanation of the axiom and it is totally essential to the argument, as the 7 sections of the article rely entirely on it.

    - I think that, like all sets of axioms, this one should also be subject to Goedel's incompleteness theorem, ie it cannot prove its own consistency. But I am very far from an expert in mathematics or logic so I'll let you and any interested reader decide if this take has merit: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del%27s_incompleteness_theorems

    - The God that results from this line of argumentation doesn't seem to have anything to do with the Christian God or the God of any religion that I know about. In fact, I see nothing in the God that results from this logical reasoning that has any particular relationship with homo sapiens sapiens, as opposed to anything else that exists in the physical realm. From a human perspective, the existence of this Unconditioned Reality is equivalent to no God at all. By itself it carries no promise of any salvation after death whatever we do or fail to do during our lives.

    Replies: @Sher Singh, @Ivashka the fool

    Just consider everything sacred & experience divinity rather than trying to believe it.
    Common ritual, sacrality & mores are the basis of community.

    This idea of belief is entirely abrahamic & atheist

    [MORE]

    • Replies: @Mikel
    @Sher Singh

    That is actually an interesting perspective and I don't fully disagree with it. Last year I had the misfortune of having to attend a funeral in the old country. After the ceremony I was talking to an old friend about some rather contentious religious stuff the priest had said in his homily, taking for granted that we were all devout believers, and he told me that these days civic funerals are becoming a thing around there but they are generally an embarrassment. The speaker doesn't quite know what to say and tries to substitute religious passages with quotes from writers or philosophers that don't really reflect the deceased person's character.

    All things considered, I prefer my relatives to continue having Catholic funerals, as they have during countless generations. The rites are well established, people know the Mass routines, what to do, what to say and when to the grieving relatives, and it all results in a dignified farewell to your loved one.

    But the most moving funeral I have ever attended was a Mormon one, last year too. Apart from a well elaborated Church pomp, all immediate relatives of the deceased, including a 90+ year old person, found the composure to say some words about him from the altar and let us know personal details about him that we didn't know.

  238. @Mikel
    @AP


    With man it is (basically) impossible for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of God but with God all things are possible. It seems rather clear.
     

    According to Catholic doctrine perfection is not necessary to enter the Kingdom of God because with God all things are possible.
     

    Indeed none of us are worthy. That’s widely understood and accepted.
     
    Sorry, I am unable to twist my mind enough to find in Jesus' words the meaning that you assign them. In fact, I am not even sure what exactly you're saying those words mean.

    One thing we know about Jesus is that he was not exactly preaching to the erudite classes. He was rather interested in reaching the common people of Palestine so it is unlikely that he would have used ambiguous language. If we believe that he said what Matthew recounted, he likely meant that exactly.

    I would have been more open to the theory of his using hyperbole in that sentence or to different passages of the Gospel showing that he did see the possibility of rich people entering Heaven without first giving their riches to the poor. Not that inconsistency in a doctrine is something that I value much but I would have found it a better line of reasoning. That the full passage shows that he didn't really mean what he said in the famous camel sentence is quite unpersuasive to me.

    Replies: @Emil Nikola Richard, @Ivashka the fool, @AP

    Sorry, I am unable to twist my mind enough to find in Jesus’ words the meaning that you assign them.

    It’s clear without twists.

    When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, “Who then can be saved?”
    Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

    When directly asked who can be saved, Jesus replied that with man it’s impossible, but with God all things are possible.

    So with God a rich man can be saved, but without Him he cannot be.

    And indeed there is elsewhere an example from the Bible of a rich man, who did not give up all of his wealth but only half of it, and who was saved. Thus confirming that with God, everything is possible.

    Luke 19:1-10

    Jesus entered Jericho and was passing through. 2 A man was there by the name of Zacchaeus; he was a chief tax collector and was wealthy. 3 He wanted to see who Jesus was, but because he was short he could not see over the crowd. 4 So he ran ahead and climbed a sycamore-fig tree to see him, since Jesus was coming that way.

    5 When Jesus reached the spot, he looked up and said to him, “Zacchaeus, come down immediately. I must stay at your house today.” 6 So he came down at once and welcomed him gladly.

    7 All the people saw this and began to mutter, “He has gone to be the guest of a sinner.”

    8 But Zacchaeus stood up and said to the Lord, “Look, Lord! Here and now I give half of my possessions to the poor, and if I have cheated anybody out of anything, I will pay back four times the amount.”

    9 Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, because this man, too, is a son of Abraham. 10 For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost.”

    :::::::::::::

    That the full passage shows that he didn’t really mean what he said in the famous camel sentence is quite unpersuasive to me.

    Of course He meant what he said: that salvation is impossible for the rich man without God.

    Naturally you can choose not to see what is very clear, that God makes possible that which is impossible without Him.

  239. @Mikel
    @Ivashka the fool


    A lot of phenomena in this world of ours are not seen with the naked eye or heard of with the natural audition.
     
    Yes but we know about the examples that you have given precisely because we have strong evidence (typically 5-sigma+) of their existence. And still the scientific method requires us to remain skeptical about them.

    Compare that to a supernatural being for whom no empirical evidence exists but whose existence, conveniently, would calm our existential fear.

    Replies: @Ivashka the fool, @AP, @Coconuts

    Compare that to a supernatural being for whom no empirical evidence exists but whose existence, conveniently, would calm our existential fear.

    For people who fear an inevitability or high likelihood of eternal Hell, atheism would conveniently calm such a fear.

    • Agree: Ivashka the fool
    • LOL: Mikel
    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @AP

    But if you were Christian and god-fearing, you would believe you were the most likely person of any to enter hell, as the views you promote just objectively match what the worst sins according to the teaching of the Catholic church, every view being related to self-justifying yourself, or pride vicariously (to the things you associate with yourself) or often directly, trying to elevate yourself above other people.

    I'm not criticizing your posts, as your right for an opinion is not worse or better than anyone, and posts of god-fearing people might be very boring, but unless this is trolling or ignorance, why do you talk about Christianity when the views promoted in your posts are objectively opposite of the mainstream views of Christianity. It's like someone saying their views are Buddhist and that Buddha said attachment is good.

    Replies: @HeavilyMarbledSteak, @AP

  240. @Mikel
    @Ivashka the fool

    Thanks for providing that link. Of course it is worth my time reading intelligent arguments that challenge my pessimistic viewpoint. Besides, you have allowed me to read a good summary of what David Bentley Hart, the author that I recently said to HMS I would read one day, has to say on the most important theological matter.

    Let me offer some random thoughts:

    - This looks like a more elaborate version of Thomas Aquina's Five Ways to prove the existence of God. I first learned about this argumentation at high school. Our teacher of philosophy spent a good time presenting Aquina's arguments and their criticism by later authors. I don't remember all the details but I do know that my conclusion eventually was that the argument was weak and self-fulfilling for someone who had already decided that God exists before engaging in such reasonings.

    - The whole argument, as presented in this webpage, rests on the initial premise (ie axiom) that all reality can be divided into conditional or unconditional. Why exactly? I see no rigorous proof or explanation of the axiom and it is totally essential to the argument, as the 7 sections of the article rely entirely on it.

    - I think that, like all sets of axioms, this one should also be subject to Goedel's incompleteness theorem, ie it cannot prove its own consistency. But I am very far from an expert in mathematics or logic so I'll let you and any interested reader decide if this take has merit: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del%27s_incompleteness_theorems

    - The God that results from this line of argumentation doesn't seem to have anything to do with the Christian God or the God of any religion that I know about. In fact, I see nothing in the God that results from this logical reasoning that has any particular relationship with homo sapiens sapiens, as opposed to anything else that exists in the physical realm. From a human perspective, the existence of this Unconditioned Reality is equivalent to no God at all. By itself it carries no promise of any salvation after death whatever we do or fail to do during our lives.

    Replies: @Sher Singh, @Ivashka the fool

    The God that results from this line of argumentation doesn’t seem to have anything to do with the Christian God or the God of any religion that I know about.

    Why should it have anything at all to do with that ?

    Truth is complete in and of itself.

    Human words are partial.

    • Replies: @AnonfromTN
    @Ivashka the fool

    Why argue about God? People are inclined to push responsibility onto someone else. Plus emotionally immature people need some sort of farther figure. God is a convenient personage for both needs.

    Replies: @Ivashka the fool

  241. @Wokechoke
    soooo...how many Soviet designed tanks did the Russians chew through if the west is now deploying their own tanks to make up for the damage? It must amount to 10,000.

    Replies: @AnonfromTN, @Mikhail

    Possibly a lot fewer. Ukraine inherited lots of tanks from the USSR in 1991, but it sold most of them, with the money pocketed by various thieves now known as Ukrainian oligarchs.

  242. @Ivashka the fool
    @Mikel


    (63) Jesus said, "There was a rich man who had much money. He said, 'I shall put my money to use so that I may sow, reap, plant, and fill my storehouse with produce, with the result that I shall lack nothing.' Such were his intentions, but that same night he died. Let him who has ears hear."

    (64) Jesus said, "A man had received visitors. And when he had prepared the dinner, he sent his servant to invite the guests.
    He went to the first one and said to him, 'My master invites you.' He said, 'I have claims against some merchants. They are coming to me this evening. I must go and give them my orders. I ask to be excused from the dinner.'
    He went to another and said to him, 'My master has invited you.' He said to him, 'I have just bought a house and am required for the day. I shall not have any spare time.'
    He went to another and said to him, 'My master invites you.' He said to him, 'My friend is going to get married, and I am to prepare the banquet. I shall not be able to come. I ask to be excused from the dinner.'
    He went to another and said to him, 'My master invites you.' He said to him, 'I have just bought a farm, and I am on my way to collect the rent. I shall not be able to come. I ask to be excused.'
    The servant returned and said to his master, 'Those whom you invited to the dinner have asked to be excused.' The master said to his servant, 'Go outside to the streets and bring back those whom you happen to meet, so that they may dine.' Businessmen and merchants will not enter the places of my father."
     

    http://gnosis.org/naghamm/nhl_thomas.htm

    There is a general consensus among scholars that the Gospel of Thomas – discovered over a half century ago in the Egyptian desert – dates to the very beginnings of the Christian era and may well have taken first form before any of the four traditional canonical Gospels.

     

    I think I know why the Church has rejected this Gospel...

    Replies: @Sher Singh, @RSDB, @Dmitry

    (63)

    This is very similar to Luke 12:16-20, and (64) has some similarities to Matthew 22:1-14, although it also has some significant differences. The last sentence ( Businessmen and merchants will not enter the places of my father) seems a little out of place in the context of the narrative; but it is very reminiscent of the famous story about the moneychangers in the temple, which appears in all four of the canonical Gospels (Mat. 21:12-13, Mark 11:15-18, Luke 19:45-46, John 2:13-17 or so).

    The account in John is probably closest: And in the temple there he found the merchants selling oxen and sheep and pigeons, and the money-changers sitting at their trade. So he made a kind of whip out of cords, and drove them all, with their sheep and oxen, out of the temple, spilling the bankers’ coins and overthrowing their tables; and he said to the pigeon-sellers, Take these away, do not turn my Father’s house into a place of barter. And his disciples remembered how it is written, I am consumed with jealousy for the honour of thy house.

    • Replies: @Ivashka the fool
    @RSDB

    Gospel of Thomas is just a collection of sayings of Jesus presented in a no specific order and without any context. It is very similar to the synoptic (canonical) Gospels in its major part, but some sayings are somewhat longer and appear more complete.

    One of my favorite:


    3. Jesus said, "If your leaders say to you, 'Look, the (Father's) kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather, the (Father's) kingdom is within you and it is outside you.

    When you know yourselves, then you will be known, and you will understand that you are children of the living Father. But if you do not know yourselves, then you live in poverty, and you are the poverty."
     
    http://gnosis.org/naghamm/gosthom.html

    Replies: @RSDB

  243. @Yahya
    @songbird


    What I did say, and what is true is that modern Greeks and Turks have a relatively high genetic distance for neighboring countries.
     
    Greeks are even more distant from Celtoids. Doesn’t stop you from taking vicarious pride in Greek accomplishments and pretending as if they belong to the same ethno-racial group as yourself. You probably don’t even have a single drop of detectable Greek ancestry, yet you presume to tell Turks, who are both descended from and genetically more related to modern and ancient Greeks; that they are just too distant from Greeks.

    Anyway, whatever the case, it is notable that the genetic distance is so high.
     
    It’s not high. Greeks are literally closer to Turks than just about 99% of people on the planet. On a regional PCA they plot in the same quadrant. On a global PCA they would practically be indistinguishable. That you cherry-pick France as the basis for comparison is deception par excellence.

    You are too obsessed with your cherished concept of “Europe” as a coherent ethno-racial block to understand that Greeks are closer to Turks than they are to Russians, Swedes, Englishmen, Irishmen, Germans etc. and most Europeans save for a few groups in the South.

    It’s almost as if some redneck teacher took you aside in your schooldays and said “well look it here birdie, this here Greece is located in Europe, so they are a huwite people. And this here Turkey is in Aysia, so they be folks of color down there." And you just took this as an eternal truth and carried it with you for the rest of your life. Maybe you are just too American to understand that the world exists outside of American racial conceptions.


    But that doesn’t mean that relatedness isn’t meaningful. [To give an extreme example: if a Swede misceginates with a Nigerian, then they are literally more genetically related to a random Swede than they will be to their own kids.
     
    Your argument reminds me of Hitler's idea that Slavs were "Mongolian" or "Turkoman" untermensch because they had some Asiatic genetic traces; instead of what they really were, which is people of the same racial stock as Germans, who on a global scale, were basically genetically indistinguishable.

    The East Asian admixture in Turks is not comparable to a mulatto Swede. The Turks are still 80%+ Caucasoid; how many Turks do you see with Asiatic features? Again, perhaps it is this one-drop rule you have acquired from being an American that has turned your brain into mush regarding this topic.


    Anyway, whatever the case, it is notable that the genetic distance is so high. And I don’t understand why you can’t seem to acknowledge that, and leave it at that. That was really what my original post was about.
     
    You're wrong on nearly everything on this topic. You don't understand genetics. You are ignorant about history. When I contradict your empty assertions with concrete facts; you lie, you deflect, you twist and you deceive. It is you who should admit error.

    You were right only once, towards the end when you admitted that your previous assertion that genetic distance caused tension may have been erroneous. Greek and Turkish enmity is a result of cultural and religious differences, not genetics. We can see that even with an almost identical group as Russians and Ukrainians; there is still conflict and hostility. Likewise, the English were as genetically close as you can get to the Irish, when they had their boots on them. Serbs and Croats - same in all aspects but religious sect. Indians and Pakistanis. The list goes on and on.

    Replies: @songbird, @AP

    Greeks are literally closer to Turks than just about 99% of people on the planet.

    True, but there are peoples closer to Turks than Greeks:

    Azeris are the closest, but Kurds, Persians, and peoples of the Caucuses are closer to Turks than are Greeks.

    Pre-Turk Anatolians were a Hellenized, Greek-speaking people who were closer kin genetically to pre-Arab conquest Indo-European peoples like Persians than to Greeks from Greece. The Turkish conquest made them about 15%-20% Asian. One can indeed see faint traces of Asian-ness in some Turkish faces:

    If you google-image “Castizo” (Hispanics of 1/4 Indian descent) you will see faces not unlike Turkish ones.

    ::::::::::::::::::::::::::

    Of course, none of them are close to the Irish.

    • Agree: Ivashka the fool
    • Replies: @Wokechoke
    @AP

    of the men number 4 could pass as Irish. Number 5 is good looking. If you look at a young Colin Farrell, James Collier or Sean Connery they could be Spanish.

    Of the women. 5 could be Irish looking, but with a Spanish dad survivor from the Armada. and 1 is generic enough that it could be anyplace. 1 doesn't look so different from Melanie Chisholm from Spice Girls. Have you seen Irish examples like the singer Enya?

    , @Dmitry
    @AP

    Most Turks look like stereotypically Mediterranean people, sometimes they look like they have East Asian origin and some look like Northern Europeans.


    , none of them are close to the Irish.
     
    Visually (not culturally) a minority of Irish people could say they are Turkish and people will believe it as there is enough visual overlap. They just need some spray tan.

    You know the story about Alex Baldwin's wife. She is a white woman from Boston and has English/Irish immigrant ancestry.

    But, being a white woman is unfashionable increasingly for New York, so she was acting Spanish to promote her career. She covered her skin with a lot of spray tank and adds black dye to her hair. All the journalists thought she was Spanish until 2020.

    Unfortunately for her identity change, she has 7 children and none has inherited her "Mediterranean skin".
    https://www.usmagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/10/Alec-and-Hilaria-Baldwin-Share-1st-Family-Pic-Instagram.jpg?w=1000&quality=55

    Replies: @LatW, @songbird, @Wokechoke

    , @songbird
    @AP

    Here's a component map of Turkey:

    https://twitter.com/hermahai/status/1618727908541079562?s=20&t=xozy_Pf7fDdJDZ89eXts_A

    Not really surprising that one can often perceive a difference between them and Greeks. Boers are generally about ~<5% and one can often perceive a difference in them.

  244. @Ivashka the fool
    @Mikel


    The God that results from this line of argumentation doesn’t seem to have anything to do with the Christian God or the God of any religion that I know about.
     
    Why should it have anything at all to do with that ?

    Truth is complete in and of itself.

    Human words are partial.

    Replies: @AnonfromTN

    Why argue about God? People are inclined to push responsibility onto someone else. Plus emotionally immature people need some sort of farther figure. God is a convenient personage for both needs.

    • Replies: @Ivashka the fool
    @AnonfromTN

    Nobody's arguing.

    We're just having a pleasant conversation.

    If you want to join the conversation, would you mind taking the time to read the text at the link below, and then sharing with us what you thought of it ?

    https://ismailignosis.com/2014/03/27/he-who-is-above-all-else-the-strongest-argument-for-the-existence-of-god/

    If you prefer not to, then it's alright.

    I personally wouldn't think less of you...

    🙂

    Replies: @AnonfromTN

  245. @RSDB
    @Ivashka the fool


    (63)
     
    This is very similar to Luke 12:16-20, and (64) has some similarities to Matthew 22:1-14, although it also has some significant differences. The last sentence ( Businessmen and merchants will not enter the places of my father) seems a little out of place in the context of the narrative; but it is very reminiscent of the famous story about the moneychangers in the temple, which appears in all four of the canonical Gospels (Mat. 21:12-13, Mark 11:15-18, Luke 19:45-46, John 2:13-17 or so).

    The account in John is probably closest: And in the temple there he found the merchants selling oxen and sheep and pigeons, and the money-changers sitting at their trade. So he made a kind of whip out of cords, and drove them all, with their sheep and oxen, out of the temple, spilling the bankers’ coins and overthrowing their tables; and he said to the pigeon-sellers, Take these away, do not turn my Father’s house into a place of barter. And his disciples remembered how it is written, I am consumed with jealousy for the honour of thy house.

    Replies: @Ivashka the fool

    Gospel of Thomas is just a collection of sayings of Jesus presented in a no specific order and without any context. It is very similar to the synoptic (canonical) Gospels in its major part, but some sayings are somewhat longer and appear more complete.

    One of my favorite:

    3. Jesus said, “If your leaders say to you, ‘Look, the (Father’s) kingdom is in the sky,’ then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, ‘It is in the sea,’ then the fish will precede you. Rather, the (Father’s) kingdom is within you and it is outside you.

    When you know yourselves, then you will be known, and you will understand that you are children of the living Father. But if you do not know yourselves, then you live in poverty, and you are the poverty.”

    http://gnosis.org/naghamm/gosthom.html

    • Replies: @RSDB
    @Ivashka the fool

    Yes, it's only that I was thinking that those two passages would likely not be why it was not accepted as a canonical Gospel, if what was in them was in the canonical Gospels as well.

    Sorry, I have a very simplistic mind.


    One of my favorite:
     
    Thank you. It's an interesting work, to be sure.
  246. @AnonfromTN
    @Ivashka the fool

    Why argue about God? People are inclined to push responsibility onto someone else. Plus emotionally immature people need some sort of farther figure. God is a convenient personage for both needs.

    Replies: @Ivashka the fool

    Nobody’s arguing.

    We’re just having a pleasant conversation.

    If you want to join the conversation, would you mind taking the time to read the text at the link below, and then sharing with us what you thought of it ?

    https://ismailignosis.com/2014/03/27/he-who-is-above-all-else-the-strongest-argument-for-the-existence-of-god/

    If you prefer not to, then it’s alright.

    I personally wouldn’t think less of you…

    🙂

    • Replies: @AnonfromTN
    @Ivashka the fool

    Will try when I get back to proper internet connection in five days. Right now I only have Wi-Fi on my cellphone

  247. @Greasy William
    @Sean

    It sounds like the West is going to supply Ukraine with advanced MBTs at some point. I don't see Ukraine as capable of achieving any sort of breakthrough, however, so likely this is to show that they are giving Ukraine what it "needs to win" even while the West knows that Ukraine can't achieve a military victory.

    What Ukraine needs is body armor, artillery, anti tank weapons, drones and air defense systems. Talk of tanks and F-16s is just a waste.

    Replies: @Wokechoke, @Sean

    They are going to be getting a Hundred Leopard2 and Abrams now. What seems to have happened is that the Germans told the US, “if giving Ukraine Leopard2s is so morally right and safe for Germany, it should be be even more right and safe for America to give Abrams tanks, so we are not going to give Ukraine tanks unless you give them some of yours too”.

    • Replies: @Greasy William
    @Sean

    Apparently the Abrams are to be supplied out of new orders, not existing stocks. So they won't be there until '24 at the earliest. As for the Leopards, believe it when I see it.

    I really don't think additional armor is going to help out the Ukrainians. No matter what weapons they have, they aren't going to be able to break through the Russian lines.

    Replies: @sudden death, @Sean

  248. I largely try to avoid posting about the RU-UA war since it’s basically a meatgrinder without much happening in terms of territorial shifts. But this will be an exception.

    The Beeb has tried to calculate Russian KIA using verified open source methods and then inflated this number by 60% to get to a rough estimate. They get about 20K total KIA. I think closer to 30K is more realistic, but this is the ballpark we’re talking about.

    Meanwhile, Ursula von der Leyen admitted 100K UA KIA a few weeks ago in a slip-up.

    [MORE]

    Whole thread is worth reading. Worth noting that Kremlin-critical liberal groups such as Mediazona have come to similar numbers in their own independent estimates.

    It does seem like UA has essentially pursued a policy of territorial maximalism at the cost of very heavy losses. Russia has done the exact opposite, in an apparent attrition tactic to simply bleed UA army dry. Often to the point of giving up territory willingly to maintain high K/D ratio.

    This would explain why the war drags on for so long and why it won’t be over anytime soon. But looking at territorial advancements alone is probably a misleading metric given these dynamics.

    • Agree: Ivashka the fool
    • Replies: @Wokechoke
    @Thulean Friend

    20K sounds about right for KIA.

    , @Dmitry
    @Thulean Friend


    Ursula von der Leyen admitted 100K UA KIA
     
    I don't think this is what happens, instead she would be mixing estimates about casualties (dead and wounded) and dead. The military casualties for Ukraine were estimated as 100,000 (dead and wounded) soldiers, but the majority of those are wounded.

    100,000 casualties of soldiers would imply perhaps, Ukraine has 20,000 thousand dead soldiers and 80,000 wounded soldiers, if the level of the medical treatment is low.

    Replies: @AnonfromTN

    , @AnonfromTN
    @Thulean Friend

    This difference in strategy simply reflects the fact that the RF is a sovereign country that wants to spare the lives of its soldiers. In contrast, Ukraine is ruled by the empire, which considers aborigines disposable. Sending arms to Ukraine is not about its win, which is not achievable under any circumstances, but about forcing the RF to spend as much resources as possible to weaken it. The war is between the US and the RF, Ukraine is just a pawn in this game.

    Replies: @Wokechoke

    , @AP
    @Thulean Friend


    The Beeb has tried to calculate Russian KIA using verified open source methods and then inflated this number by 60% to get to a rough estimate. They get about 20K total KIA
     
    Our former host estimates 45k Russian killed.

    This is supported by a piece of evidence, the statue in Saratov which listed the war dead back in December, before the bloody Bakhmut/Soledar battles. Extrapolated to all of Russia, the number was around low 30,000s back then IIRC. It did not include MIA so was an underestimate. So 45k currently makes sense. That 45k would not include Donbas forces KIA.

    Meanwhile, Ursula von der Leyen admitted 100K UA KIA a few weeks ago in a slip-up
     
    The slip up was that she meant total casualties. It seems low to me.



    https://twitter.com/powerfultakes/status/1617634953076039680?s=46&t=j_JQF-V-PHLTMgtzU5DuCg

    Replies: @Wokechoke

  249. @AP
    @Yahya


    Greeks are literally closer to Turks than just about 99% of people on the planet.
     
    True, but there are peoples closer to Turks than Greeks:

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FZUuorRXEAA1dEm.jpg

    Azeris are the closest, but Kurds, Persians, and peoples of the Caucuses are closer to Turks than are Greeks.

    Pre-Turk Anatolians were a Hellenized, Greek-speaking people who were closer kin genetically to pre-Arab conquest Indo-European peoples like Persians than to Greeks from Greece. The Turkish conquest made them about 15%-20% Asian. One can indeed see faint traces of Asian-ness in some Turkish faces:

    https://i.pinimg.com/originals/bb/58/bd/bb58bd39db21a973e80f1a1ee1e8d384.jpg

    If you google-image "Castizo" (Hispanics of 1/4 Indian descent) you will see faces not unlike Turkish ones.



    ::::::::::::::::::::::::::

    Of course, none of them are close to the Irish.

    Replies: @Wokechoke, @Dmitry, @songbird

    of the men number 4 could pass as Irish. Number 5 is good looking. If you look at a young Colin Farrell, James Collier or Sean Connery they could be Spanish.

    Of the women. 5 could be Irish looking, but with a Spanish dad survivor from the Armada. and 1 is generic enough that it could be anyplace. 1 doesn’t look so different from Melanie Chisholm from Spice Girls. Have you seen Irish examples like the singer Enya?

  250. @Thulean Friend
    I largely try to avoid posting about the RU-UA war since it's basically a meatgrinder without much happening in terms of territorial shifts. But this will be an exception.

    The Beeb has tried to calculate Russian KIA using verified open source methods and then inflated this number by 60% to get to a rough estimate. They get about 20K total KIA. I think closer to 30K is more realistic, but this is the ballpark we're talking about.

    Meanwhile, Ursula von der Leyen admitted 100K UA KIA a few weeks ago in a slip-up.

    https://twitter.com/MyLordBebo/status/1617954373832945666

    Whole thread is worth reading. Worth noting that Kremlin-critical liberal groups such as Mediazona have come to similar numbers in their own independent estimates.

    It does seem like UA has essentially pursued a policy of territorial maximalism at the cost of very heavy losses. Russia has done the exact opposite, in an apparent attrition tactic to simply bleed UA army dry. Often to the point of giving up territory willingly to maintain high K/D ratio.

    This would explain why the war drags on for so long and why it won't be over anytime soon. But looking at territorial advancements alone is probably a misleading metric given these dynamics.

    Replies: @Wokechoke, @Dmitry, @AnonfromTN, @AP

    20K sounds about right for KIA.

  251. @Sean
    @Greasy William

    They are going to be getting a Hundred Leopard2 and Abrams now. What seems to have happened is that the Germans told the US, "if giving Ukraine Leopard2s is so morally right and safe for Germany, it should be be even more right and safe for America to give Abrams tanks, so we are not going to give Ukraine tanks unless you give them some of yours too".

    Replies: @Greasy William

    Apparently the Abrams are to be supplied out of new orders, not existing stocks. So they won’t be there until ’24 at the earliest. As for the Leopards, believe it when I see it.

    I really don’t think additional armor is going to help out the Ukrainians. No matter what weapons they have, they aren’t going to be able to break through the Russian lines.

    • Replies: @sudden death
    @Greasy William


    Apparently the Abrams are to be supplied out of new orders, not existing stocks. So they won’t be there until ’24 at the earliest.
     
    Looks like it all being physically moved in Poland as we speak, ofc some chance is that might be just internal movements of existing Poland army inventory for their own military trainings, but...

    https://t.me/m0sc0wcalling/18677

    , @Sean
    @Greasy William

    The Abrams will have a lot of the advanced electronics stripped out it. That is what the Brits did with the Mastiff vehicle they donated to Ukraine. The US does not have all that much capacity for increasing artillery production because it did not rely on artillery very much. Countering Russian fires will by by deep strike precision missiles of nothing. If the US gave ATACMs, GLSDB, Gray Eagle, and F16s I think Ukraine would take back Crimea or at least make it untenable. America would like to, but clearly sees it as too risky for them as Putin would be pushed into a corner.


    Ukraine forgot that their country being whole is an incident not an end for the US. Hence, Ukraine is being denied the most effective (deep strike) weapons and--unable to do mobile warfare--is as a result being dragged into a rolling battle of attrition fronted by Prigozhin's legion of lifers (locating enemy positions through being killed from them), and backed by ponderous but immense artillery fires.

  252. @Ivashka the fool
    @HeavilyMarbledSteak


    From afar, a mighty whirring could be heard approaching: it was the roar and clatter of a million mechanical devices gaining momentum, forming an overwhelming uproar of ingenuity and efficiency: speed and action for their own sake.
     


    https://youtu.be/B8r7iF39fx4

    Many of the current world pathologies are due to the humans leaving their assigned part of Creation and joining the Machine. The Technosphere rising will upend and transform human nature. The Technosphere advent is interlinked with the lust for profit that is characteristic of Capitalism. At the time that is describing in the book you referred to, the East did not yet go through the birth pains of Renaissance, the teenage years of the pre-industrial age and the early adulthood of the Belle Époque industrial (so-called Moderne) society. The East was still a Civilization of normal, non-transformed human beings.

    The West embraced Capitalism, built the Machine which evolved into the Technosphere, had two great industrial wars and nearly ended up having the third and final one. That is a lot of (vain ?) effort and sacrifice. That is why the West and those who joined into its system are today tired, demoralized and unfit for childbirth.

    We will still go through a lot of suffering. But one day either we will transcend the Machine, or the Technosphere will transcend us. For humankind as a species, there appears to be no middle ground.

    Replies: @Barbarossa, @HeavilyMarbledSteak

    Yeah, when the people in that book went to the ME it was a colorful and romantic place that hadn’t yet been spoiled by modern industry and machines. That’s all changed now of course.

    Personally, I worry less and less these days about the Machine. I don’t think it has any staying power.

    The people who think like machines develop blind spots, because machine thinking is highly selective thinking that leaves out a lot of stuff – necessarily, by design – to focus on a narrow slice of reality. It also carries with it it’s own cognitive biases that impair effectively engaging with reality and that will hasten it’s demise.

    Anatoly Karlin is still blathering on these days about how the determining factor in war is material, because that’s the faith of the machine. It boggles the mind, but there you have it. And the machine people were all sure Russia would easily win, because of course, size wins, in machine world.

    It’s like everything – it has it’s day, but it’s on life support. China bet huge on the machine, and it basically went nowhere – no grand new transformations, nothing amazing came out of it. Just some lame social control with cameras that’s now breaking down too.

    I think China was the machines last hope. The last huge reservoir of talent, but it went nowhere. A billion of the worlds (supposedly) smartest people, and nada.

    So these days, I’m not too worked about the machine. It’s on its way out.

    • Replies: @Ivashka the fool
    @HeavilyMarbledSteak


    Personally, I worry less and less these days about the Machine. I don’t think it has any staying power
     
    It could be either the Machine or social and economic decay.
  253. @AP
    @Mikel


    Compare that to a supernatural being for whom no empirical evidence exists but whose existence, conveniently, would calm our existential fear.
     
    For people who fear an inevitability or high likelihood of eternal Hell, atheism would conveniently calm such a fear.

    Replies: @Dmitry

    But if you were Christian and god-fearing, you would believe you were the most likely person of any to enter hell, as the views you promote just objectively match what the worst sins according to the teaching of the Catholic church, every view being related to self-justifying yourself, or pride vicariously (to the things you associate with yourself) or often directly, trying to elevate yourself above other people.

    I’m not criticizing your posts, as your right for an opinion is not worse or better than anyone, and posts of god-fearing people might be very boring, but unless this is trolling or ignorance, why do you talk about Christianity when the views promoted in your posts are objectively opposite of the mainstream views of Christianity. It’s like someone saying their views are Buddhist and that Buddha said attachment is good.

    • Replies: @HeavilyMarbledSteak
    @Dmitry


    It’s like someone saying their views are Buddhist and that Buddha said attachment is good.
     
    Actually, AltanBakshi once said attachment is good :)

    I'm telling you man, there is something more going on here - certain people I think just hate hate hate these types of philosophies that appear in Christianity and Buddhism etc and they want to destroy them.

    It's not enough to say the philosophy is wrong and leave it at that - it can't even exist and no one can possibly have it, and they will see to that by eviscerating it.

    I think in the end the best word to describe what AP is doing is one that is very popular right now in pop psychology - "gaslighting". This phenomenon is very real, and is widely recognized as a standard tactic used by those wanting to control other people.

    Why is it so hard to believe AP wants to control and manipulate, and is gaslighting in order to achieve his ends?

    And why not? If you're a will to power type of guy nothing is more threatening to you than a philosophy of peace and non-attachment, and since you're about will to power, of course you'll try and control and manipulate people.

    As I said before, persecuting an ideology isn't really that effective - it can backfire badly and increase faith. Gaslighting is more effective, pretending words don't mean what they do, they mean the opposite - it creates confusion, makes people self doubt, and easier to manipulate.

    Replies: @Dmitry

    , @AP
    @Dmitry


    But if you were Christian and god-fearing, you would believe you were the most likely person of any to enter hell, as the views you promote just objectively match what the worst sins according to the teaching of the Catholic church
     
    Nobody knows who will or will not go to Hell, but none of us deserve salvation on our own merits.

    Indeed almost every week I publicly state and implore:

    “Боже, милостивий будь мені, грішному Боже, очисти мої гріхи і помилуй мене.
    Без числа нагрішив я, Господи, прости мені.

    What I have written has been supported by the teachings of the Church, and I have provided links to those. For example my attitude towards wealth matches this:

    https://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=2944

    I am very pleased that the one devout Orthodox Christian here, who knows more about such matter than either of us do, confirms that I am on the right track in my opinions, and those that disagree with me are a collection of atheists, apostates, and heathens (a description, not judgment).

    every view being related to self-justifying yourself
     
    I organize my life in such a way that it is as good as I can make it.

    why do you talk about Christianity when the views promoted in your posts are objectively opposite of the mainstream views of Christianity
     
    This is a false statement.

    I provide evidence for my views matching those of mainstream Christianity. You, the atheist, and AaronB (some kind of heathen?) do what cultists and sectarians do: cherry-pick quotes from the Bible to support things that the Church does not. So he does that to pretend that his self-indulgent nature tourism places him in a similar category as ascetic Church fathers. You do that because, I suppose, you like a debate. I don’t mind that, it inspired me to review Church teaching.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @RSDB, @Another Polish Perspective, @Ivashka the fool

  254. @Thulean Friend
    I largely try to avoid posting about the RU-UA war since it's basically a meatgrinder without much happening in terms of territorial shifts. But this will be an exception.

    The Beeb has tried to calculate Russian KIA using verified open source methods and then inflated this number by 60% to get to a rough estimate. They get about 20K total KIA. I think closer to 30K is more realistic, but this is the ballpark we're talking about.

    Meanwhile, Ursula von der Leyen admitted 100K UA KIA a few weeks ago in a slip-up.

    https://twitter.com/MyLordBebo/status/1617954373832945666

    Whole thread is worth reading. Worth noting that Kremlin-critical liberal groups such as Mediazona have come to similar numbers in their own independent estimates.

    It does seem like UA has essentially pursued a policy of territorial maximalism at the cost of very heavy losses. Russia has done the exact opposite, in an apparent attrition tactic to simply bleed UA army dry. Often to the point of giving up territory willingly to maintain high K/D ratio.

    This would explain why the war drags on for so long and why it won't be over anytime soon. But looking at territorial advancements alone is probably a misleading metric given these dynamics.

    Replies: @Wokechoke, @Dmitry, @AnonfromTN, @AP

    Ursula von der Leyen admitted 100K UA KIA

    I don’t think this is what happens, instead she would be mixing estimates about casualties (dead and wounded) and dead. The military casualties for Ukraine were estimated as 100,000 (dead and wounded) soldiers, but the majority of those are wounded.

    100,000 casualties of soldiers would imply perhaps, Ukraine has 20,000 thousand dead soldiers and 80,000 wounded soldiers, if the level of the medical treatment is low.

    • Replies: @AnonfromTN
    @Dmitry

    I wouldn’t trust the official numbers from either side, but 20 K killed Ukrainian soldiers doesn’t sound plausible. Recently “Wagner” reached an agreement with Ukraine to return the bodies of soldiers killed in Soledar (which Ukraine “defended” on the web two weeks after it actually fell). They agreed to deliver Ukrainian dead in 4-5 rides of twenty (!) trucks. That’s Soledar alone.

  255. @Dmitry
    @AP

    But if you were Christian and god-fearing, you would believe you were the most likely person of any to enter hell, as the views you promote just objectively match what the worst sins according to the teaching of the Catholic church, every view being related to self-justifying yourself, or pride vicariously (to the things you associate with yourself) or often directly, trying to elevate yourself above other people.

    I'm not criticizing your posts, as your right for an opinion is not worse or better than anyone, and posts of god-fearing people might be very boring, but unless this is trolling or ignorance, why do you talk about Christianity when the views promoted in your posts are objectively opposite of the mainstream views of Christianity. It's like someone saying their views are Buddhist and that Buddha said attachment is good.

    Replies: @HeavilyMarbledSteak, @AP

    It’s like someone saying their views are Buddhist and that Buddha said attachment is good.

    Actually, AltanBakshi once said attachment is good 🙂

    I’m telling you man, there is something more going on here – certain people I think just hate hate hate these types of philosophies that appear in Christianity and Buddhism etc and they want to destroy them.

    It’s not enough to say the philosophy is wrong and leave it at that – it can’t even exist and no one can possibly have it, and they will see to that by eviscerating it.

    I think in the end the best word to describe what AP is doing is one that is very popular right now in pop psychology – “gaslighting”. This phenomenon is very real, and is widely recognized as a standard tactic used by those wanting to control other people.

    Why is it so hard to believe AP wants to control and manipulate, and is gaslighting in order to achieve his ends?

    And why not? If you’re a will to power type of guy nothing is more threatening to you than a philosophy of peace and non-attachment, and since you’re about will to power, of course you’ll try and control and manipulate people.

    As I said before, persecuting an ideology isn’t really that effective – it can backfire badly and increase faith. Gaslighting is more effective, pretending words don’t mean what they do, they mean the opposite – it creates confusion, makes people self doubt, and easier to manipulate.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @HeavilyMarbledSteak


    “gaslighting”
     
    His viewpoint is his viewpoint and this forum is designed for people to post their viewpoint. He has "idiosyncratic views", which is part of the enjoyment of the forum. Perhaps, his opinion can be true, who knows. From the perspective of the forum, it's generating interesting talks quite often. We are a forum, we aren't doing anything important like bridge engineering.

    Pride, elevating yourself, lowering others, boasting - historically, people said this is virtue, especially in Ancient Greece.

    But from the view of the religion, of course, he is writing and doing the opposite of the religion's teaching, both historically and currently. So, I don't know if mislabeling the "Anti-Christ" point of view, is some "gaslighting". It's not like anyone would be influenced by this, except himself if he actually believes in "opposite day" is every day for our forum.

    After all, he writing with a few people who are here for a hobby and we (mostly) enjoy his contributions.

    Replies: @HeavilyMarbledSteak

  256. @Ivashka the fool
    @Mikel


    (63) Jesus said, "There was a rich man who had much money. He said, 'I shall put my money to use so that I may sow, reap, plant, and fill my storehouse with produce, with the result that I shall lack nothing.' Such were his intentions, but that same night he died. Let him who has ears hear."

    (64) Jesus said, "A man had received visitors. And when he had prepared the dinner, he sent his servant to invite the guests.
    He went to the first one and said to him, 'My master invites you.' He said, 'I have claims against some merchants. They are coming to me this evening. I must go and give them my orders. I ask to be excused from the dinner.'
    He went to another and said to him, 'My master has invited you.' He said to him, 'I have just bought a house and am required for the day. I shall not have any spare time.'
    He went to another and said to him, 'My master invites you.' He said to him, 'My friend is going to get married, and I am to prepare the banquet. I shall not be able to come. I ask to be excused from the dinner.'
    He went to another and said to him, 'My master invites you.' He said to him, 'I have just bought a farm, and I am on my way to collect the rent. I shall not be able to come. I ask to be excused.'
    The servant returned and said to his master, 'Those whom you invited to the dinner have asked to be excused.' The master said to his servant, 'Go outside to the streets and bring back those whom you happen to meet, so that they may dine.' Businessmen and merchants will not enter the places of my father."
     

    http://gnosis.org/naghamm/nhl_thomas.htm

    There is a general consensus among scholars that the Gospel of Thomas – discovered over a half century ago in the Egyptian desert – dates to the very beginnings of the Christian era and may well have taken first form before any of the four traditional canonical Gospels.

     

    I think I know why the Church has rejected this Gospel...

    Replies: @Sher Singh, @RSDB, @Dmitry

    Church has rejected this Gospel…

    The Church fathers sometimes compromised with wealthy people, which sometimes fund them, but they didn’t always hide the teaching.
    https://ekzeget.ru/bible/3a-kniga-carstv/glava-21/stih-2/tolkovatel-amvrosij-mediolanskij-svatitel/

    • Agree: Ivashka the fool
  257. @HeavilyMarbledSteak
    @Dmitry


    It’s like someone saying their views are Buddhist and that Buddha said attachment is good.
     
    Actually, AltanBakshi once said attachment is good :)

    I'm telling you man, there is something more going on here - certain people I think just hate hate hate these types of philosophies that appear in Christianity and Buddhism etc and they want to destroy them.

    It's not enough to say the philosophy is wrong and leave it at that - it can't even exist and no one can possibly have it, and they will see to that by eviscerating it.

    I think in the end the best word to describe what AP is doing is one that is very popular right now in pop psychology - "gaslighting". This phenomenon is very real, and is widely recognized as a standard tactic used by those wanting to control other people.

    Why is it so hard to believe AP wants to control and manipulate, and is gaslighting in order to achieve his ends?

    And why not? If you're a will to power type of guy nothing is more threatening to you than a philosophy of peace and non-attachment, and since you're about will to power, of course you'll try and control and manipulate people.

    As I said before, persecuting an ideology isn't really that effective - it can backfire badly and increase faith. Gaslighting is more effective, pretending words don't mean what they do, they mean the opposite - it creates confusion, makes people self doubt, and easier to manipulate.

    Replies: @Dmitry

    “gaslighting”

    His viewpoint is his viewpoint and this forum is designed for people to post their viewpoint. He has “idiosyncratic views”, which is part of the enjoyment of the forum. Perhaps, his opinion can be true, who knows. From the perspective of the forum, it’s generating interesting talks quite often. We are a forum, we aren’t doing anything important like bridge engineering.

    Pride, elevating yourself, lowering others, boasting – historically, people said this is virtue, especially in Ancient Greece.

    But from the view of the religion, of course, he is writing and doing the opposite of the religion’s teaching, both historically and currently. So, I don’t know if mislabeling the “Anti-Christ” point of view, is some “gaslighting”. It’s not like anyone would be influenced by this, except himself if he actually believes in “opposite day” is every day for our forum.

    After all, he writing with a few people who are here for a hobby and we (mostly) enjoy his contributions.

    • Replies: @HeavilyMarbledSteak
    @Dmitry

    Yeah, yeah, it's all good.

    Either way as you say APs viewpoint led to a good discussion on this site, so kudos to him for being a little bit crazy :)

    I can kind of see why he's a collectors item for you in your Unz pantheon of eccentrics (although I suspect I'm another, perhaps placed on a shelf right below AP :) )

    Replies: @Ivashka the fool, @Dmitry

  258. @Thulean Friend
    I largely try to avoid posting about the RU-UA war since it's basically a meatgrinder without much happening in terms of territorial shifts. But this will be an exception.

    The Beeb has tried to calculate Russian KIA using verified open source methods and then inflated this number by 60% to get to a rough estimate. They get about 20K total KIA. I think closer to 30K is more realistic, but this is the ballpark we're talking about.

    Meanwhile, Ursula von der Leyen admitted 100K UA KIA a few weeks ago in a slip-up.

    https://twitter.com/MyLordBebo/status/1617954373832945666

    Whole thread is worth reading. Worth noting that Kremlin-critical liberal groups such as Mediazona have come to similar numbers in their own independent estimates.

    It does seem like UA has essentially pursued a policy of territorial maximalism at the cost of very heavy losses. Russia has done the exact opposite, in an apparent attrition tactic to simply bleed UA army dry. Often to the point of giving up territory willingly to maintain high K/D ratio.

    This would explain why the war drags on for so long and why it won't be over anytime soon. But looking at territorial advancements alone is probably a misleading metric given these dynamics.

    Replies: @Wokechoke, @Dmitry, @AnonfromTN, @AP

    This difference in strategy simply reflects the fact that the RF is a sovereign country that wants to spare the lives of its soldiers. In contrast, Ukraine is ruled by the empire, which considers aborigines disposable. Sending arms to Ukraine is not about its win, which is not achievable under any circumstances, but about forcing the RF to spend as much resources as possible to weaken it. The war is between the US and the RF, Ukraine is just a pawn in this game.

    • Replies: @Wokechoke
    @AnonfromTN

    Penetrating analysis there. I don’t think it’s been noticed. Empires like Rome did use legitimate client Kings before they Borged the next generation of indigenous into compliance.

  259. @Ivashka the fool
    @AnonfromTN

    Nobody's arguing.

    We're just having a pleasant conversation.

    If you want to join the conversation, would you mind taking the time to read the text at the link below, and then sharing with us what you thought of it ?

    https://ismailignosis.com/2014/03/27/he-who-is-above-all-else-the-strongest-argument-for-the-existence-of-god/

    If you prefer not to, then it's alright.

    I personally wouldn't think less of you...

    🙂

    Replies: @AnonfromTN

    Will try when I get back to proper internet connection in five days. Right now I only have Wi-Fi on my cellphone

    • Thanks: Ivashka the fool
  260. @Dmitry
    @HeavilyMarbledSteak


    “gaslighting”
     
    His viewpoint is his viewpoint and this forum is designed for people to post their viewpoint. He has "idiosyncratic views", which is part of the enjoyment of the forum. Perhaps, his opinion can be true, who knows. From the perspective of the forum, it's generating interesting talks quite often. We are a forum, we aren't doing anything important like bridge engineering.

    Pride, elevating yourself, lowering others, boasting - historically, people said this is virtue, especially in Ancient Greece.

    But from the view of the religion, of course, he is writing and doing the opposite of the religion's teaching, both historically and currently. So, I don't know if mislabeling the "Anti-Christ" point of view, is some "gaslighting". It's not like anyone would be influenced by this, except himself if he actually believes in "opposite day" is every day for our forum.

    After all, he writing with a few people who are here for a hobby and we (mostly) enjoy his contributions.

    Replies: @HeavilyMarbledSteak

    Yeah, yeah, it’s all good.

    Either way as you say APs viewpoint led to a good discussion on this site, so kudos to him for being a little bit crazy 🙂

    I can kind of see why he’s a collectors item for you in your Unz pantheon of eccentrics (although I suspect I’m another, perhaps placed on a shelf right below AP 🙂 )

    • Replies: @Ivashka the fool
    @HeavilyMarbledSteak


    kudos to him for being a little bit crazy
     
    I am too a little bit crazy. Can I have some kudos too ?

    And who's not crazy these days ?

    Crazy times man, crazy times...

    🙂

    (Actually AP is certainly among the most normal people I have interacted with on this forum. While both of us - me and you are certainly a little bit nuts. Therefore, you calling AP crazy is a little of kettle calling the pot back. )

    Replies: @HeavilyMarbledSteak

    , @Dmitry
    @HeavilyMarbledSteak


    placed on a shelf right below AP
     
    You're (with Bashibuzuk, Altan etc) the pro-religious anti-materialist side of the spectrum for this forum, AP is the anti-religious* and materialist side of the spectrum.

    In terms of the user interaction, I reply more to AP's posts to higher percentage than any other user in the forum. So, you can see where the interests are in overlap between users.

    So, for example, Yahya is from Egypt. I don't want to ask him about Islam or "future of the soul", which we know Bashibuzuk is waiting to ask, but I would think probably boring.

    But I was waiting for polite time to ask for his food recommendations without stereotype him too much (the stereotype Arabs know more about food than even Italians) or what he thinks about el-Sisi, which e.g. Bashibuzuk will think probably boring.


    -

    * Although seeing it only in terms of social utility means he is more tolerant than the other people here, about e.g. Mormons. There is the positive side of this viewpoint. But for people that are spiritual, it's strange to see people viewing religion in terms of social and political utility, like saying to romantic people that "love is good because it reduced blood pressure".

    Replies: @Yahya

  261. @HeavilyMarbledSteak
    @Ivashka the fool

    Yeah, when the people in that book went to the ME it was a colorful and romantic place that hadn't yet been spoiled by modern industry and machines. That's all changed now of course.

    Personally, I worry less and less these days about the Machine. I don't think it has any staying power.

    The people who think like machines develop blind spots, because machine thinking is highly selective thinking that leaves out a lot of stuff - necessarily, by design - to focus on a narrow slice of reality. It also carries with it it's own cognitive biases that impair effectively engaging with reality and that will hasten it's demise.

    Anatoly Karlin is still blathering on these days about how the determining factor in war is material, because that's the faith of the machine. It boggles the mind, but there you have it. And the machine people were all sure Russia would easily win, because of course, size wins, in machine world.

    It's like everything - it has it's day, but it's on life support. China bet huge on the machine, and it basically went nowhere - no grand new transformations, nothing amazing came out of it. Just some lame social control with cameras that's now breaking down too.

    I think China was the machines last hope. The last huge reservoir of talent, but it went nowhere. A billion of the worlds (supposedly) smartest people, and nada.

    So these days, I'm not too worked about the machine. It's on its way out.

    Replies: @Ivashka the fool

    Personally, I worry less and less these days about the Machine. I don’t think it has any staying power

    It could be either the Machine or social and economic decay.

  262. @HeavilyMarbledSteak
    @Dmitry

    Yeah, yeah, it's all good.

    Either way as you say APs viewpoint led to a good discussion on this site, so kudos to him for being a little bit crazy :)

    I can kind of see why he's a collectors item for you in your Unz pantheon of eccentrics (although I suspect I'm another, perhaps placed on a shelf right below AP :) )

    Replies: @Ivashka the fool, @Dmitry

    kudos to him for being a little bit crazy

    I am too a little bit crazy. Can I have some kudos too ?

    And who’s not crazy these days ?

    Crazy times man, crazy times…

    🙂

    (Actually AP is certainly among the most normal people I have interacted with on this forum. While both of us – me and you are certainly a little bit nuts. Therefore, you calling AP crazy is a little of kettle calling the pot back. )

    • Replies: @HeavilyMarbledSteak
    @Ivashka the fool

    Of course - kudos to you Bashi for enlivening this board with your craziness :) May it long continue.

    I know what you mean about AP. In America people with his views and lifestyle are quite common, maybe less in Europe (I hope), but for a moment there I was having fun seeing him through Dmitry's eyes where AP calls himself a Christian but has these weird Hindu casteist views and an eccentric rendition of Christianity that essentially flips the script :)

    But ultimately you are right and AP is actually the "normal" one here - I on the other hand am nuts, and revel in it :)

    And you're pretty nuts yourself, which is awesome...

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

  263. Reply to Dmitry from the previous thread.

    RusFed demographics could be already around 110 – 115 million people. Ukrainian might have reached the 35 million territory. In Ukraine, most people would be Slav, but in RusFed Kadyrov has tweeted that Muslims have already reached 25% of the population from less than 10% around a generation ago. Imagine what it would be in a generation if we include the 10 – 15 million migrant workers from Central Asia.

    Moskvabad and Piterkent much…

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @Ivashka the fool

    Pardon me, but perhaps a slight correction is in order?


    Imagine what it will be in a generation if we include the 10 – 15 million migrant workers from Central Asia.
     
    With all of the Slavs moving to the EU (Poles, Ukrainians, Russians) perhaps this will one day become the source of Moscow's intrusions, because it will look like the new NovoRosija? :-)

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/98/Polish-soviet_propaganda_poster_1920.jpg/800px-Polish-soviet_propaganda_poster_1920.jpg
    , @Dmitry
    @Ivashka the fool


    Kadyrov has tweeted that Muslims have already reached 25%
     
    Kadyrov can say many things. It doesn't mean it is accurate. He is a mafia boss not a statistician. I don't think is accurate at all. It seems wildly inaccurate.

    Although there is little of accurate data available in Russia, so many speculations cannot be disproved. For example, the census says there are 146 million people in the Russian Federation. But the real number of the population including Crimea, according to demographers - 141 million.

    Immigration flow is also ambiguous. In the last couple years, a large part of the total population of Tajikistan has immigrated to Russia. But whether they want to live in Russia is another question. It's not Sweden, a large part of them will only be there for a temporary reason.


    In Ukraine, most people would be Slav

     

    After the war, Ukraine will be in the EU (perhaps in 15 years). A large part of their young population will go to Western Europe, many will choose there and become Swedish, French or Germans. In Ukraine, the population will become more homogenous Ukrainian, as only a small number of people with access to Schengen would want to immigrate there, while the trend of Ukrainian identity is becoming stronger.

    But there will be supervision to reform the legal system, to reduce corruption. This would increase the investment there. There will be investment to develop modern infrastructure in Ukraine. There will be remittances. The economy will develop in a more stable way, as common in all the new EU countries.

    So, their future in EU, will be like a country similar to Romania (if you optimistic) or Bulgaria (probably more realistic). It wouldn't be a chaotic situation like Lebanon in the long term. In terms of population, Ukrainians are not Latvians.* They have a lot of people,** even if population density will be low.

    -

    *Even Latvians are not Mohicans - a million people is a lot in historical terms. Ancient Sparta had a population of around 25,000 people and it was a superpower in those days.

    Replies: @AP

  264. @Dmitry
    @Thulean Friend


    Ursula von der Leyen admitted 100K UA KIA
     
    I don't think this is what happens, instead she would be mixing estimates about casualties (dead and wounded) and dead. The military casualties for Ukraine were estimated as 100,000 (dead and wounded) soldiers, but the majority of those are wounded.

    100,000 casualties of soldiers would imply perhaps, Ukraine has 20,000 thousand dead soldiers and 80,000 wounded soldiers, if the level of the medical treatment is low.

    Replies: @AnonfromTN

    I wouldn’t trust the official numbers from either side, but 20 K killed Ukrainian soldiers doesn’t sound plausible. Recently “Wagner” reached an agreement with Ukraine to return the bodies of soldiers killed in Soledar (which Ukraine “defended” on the web two weeks after it actually fell). They agreed to deliver Ukrainian dead in 4-5 rides of twenty (!) trucks. That’s Soledar alone.

    • Agree: Mikhail
  265. @Mikel
    @Ivashka the fool


    A lot of phenomena in this world of ours are not seen with the naked eye or heard of with the natural audition.
     
    Yes but we know about the examples that you have given precisely because we have strong evidence (typically 5-sigma+) of their existence. And still the scientific method requires us to remain skeptical about them.

    Compare that to a supernatural being for whom no empirical evidence exists but whose existence, conveniently, would calm our existential fear.

    Replies: @Ivashka the fool, @AP, @Coconuts

    Compare that to a supernatural being for whom no empirical evidence exists but whose existence, conveniently, would calm our existential fear.

    Empirical evidence is evidence from sense experience. There can’t be any evidence from sense experience to prove the existence of an omnipotent, omniscient first cause. It’s not a question of thinking someday some evidence could in theory be discovered, that there can’t be any just follows from empiricist epistemology.

    • Replies: @Mikel
    @Coconuts


    There can’t be any evidence from sense experience to prove the existence of an omnipotent, omniscient first cause.
     
    There can, if that omnipotent first cause decides to manifest itself to us, as the Christian God used to do from time to time in Biblical times and as some claim continues doing in private (for some strange reason, never in a public and transparent way).

    Absent that direct experience, all one can do is evaluate the odds of such a God having ever really existed or, if one is to settle down on the much more modest claim of a First Cause or Unconditional Reality, try to asses if the arguments in favor of it are logically satisfying. And of course, one can also abandon any reasoned approach to the matter and decide to believe in the god/s of his ancestors because life is just easier that way, both socially and existentially. Nothing wrong with this latter approach, as far as I'm concerned, if one is really able to force such a belief upon himself.
  266. Geo_monitor
    @colonelhomsi
    Sky News shows how brave Ukrainian fighters hide their armored vehicles in Bakhmut, close to residential buildings. Furthermore, in the same story they show that people live in these houses. That is, Ukraine uses local people as human shields..

    [MORE]

  267. @Wokechoke
    soooo...how many Soviet designed tanks did the Russians chew through if the west is now deploying their own tanks to make up for the damage? It must amount to 10,000.

    Replies: @AnonfromTN, @Mikhail

    Get a load of this wishful thinking idealistic screed from a US establishment realist venue:

    https://nationalinterest.org/feature/germany%E2%80%99s-leopard-2-tanks-will-help-crush-russia-206149

    Jacob Heilbrunn has gone full Ben Hodges, as in off the wall berserk. Bookmark this observation as time passes and reality sets in.

    Tanks are only as good as experienced crews with a specific tank model (Kiev regime forces lacking experience with the Leopards) and the air support they get against a formidable opponent.

    As has been noted elsewhere, the Kiev regime is working on the destruction of a third army. Its arsenal of weapons was greatly eliminated en masse shortly after 2/24/22. Then came the destruction of the refurbished T72 tanks and other weapons it received.

    For accuracy sake, it’s high time to stop the BS like the ones saying:
    – Russia is losing
    – the Kiev regime captured a lot of Russian tanks
    – Russia is running out of missiles
    – along with overly rosy forecasts for the deployment of HIMARS, Javelins and the latest salvo of wonder weapons.

    • Replies: @AnonfromTN
    @Mikhail

    All this BS is propaganda campaign to prevent Western sheeple protesting too much. That’s why MSM tell implausible tales about Russia losing (even though the war after 11 months is on the territory Ukraine considers its own), Russia is”running out of missiles and artillery ammo” every other day, and all those Javelins, HIMARS, and now tanks are decisive.

    The imperial strategy is to sacrifice Ukraine to weaken Russia as much as possible. There is no backing off for the empire now, so the war will drag on to the last Ukrainian (or until remaining Ukrainians finally put two and two together).

    Replies: @Greasy William

  268. @Ivashka the fool
    @S

    It looks doable, but it will run into the whole system opposing it. And once the smart contract, CBDC, social credit are part of the system's toolkit, then everything you describe would instantly make someone targeted for economic and social destruction or literal physical elimination. BTW, automation would make a lot of people even more expendable. Which should logically upend the whole economy based in wage slavery. An awful lot of people would move from the potentially profitable consumer category into the miserable social burden category. Useless eaters consuming ressources...

    Capitalism is already undertaking a transformation to maximize its hold on the biosphere through boosting the power of technology. Ressources will be more important than people, power will be prized more than profit. The Machine would want to break free from this planet and go infecting the rest of the Universe. If we stand in its way, we will be crushed.

    Problem is conservatives are always a couple of decades late, their actions are always reactive, not proactive.

    When they get somewhere, the goalposts have already been moved by the progressive.

    Perhaps there's another course of action ?

    Replies: @Emil Nikola Richard, @S, @Coconuts

    Capitalism is already undertaking a transformation to maximize its hold on the biosphere through boosting the power of technology. Ressources will be more important than people, power will be prized more than profit. The Machine would want to break free from this planet and go infecting the rest of the Universe. If we stand in its way, we will be crushed.

    Problem is conservatives are always a couple of decades late, their actions are always reactive, not proactive.

    When they get somewhere, the goalposts have already been moved by the progressive.

    You could maybe say that one ‘silver lining’ of this for the right wing will be that if a small minority come to control all of the technology needed to sustain human life and the majority of people become basically superfluous, progressivism will mostly have been refuted.

    I am thinking that one of the core beliefs of progressivism is the idea that collectively humanity can reshape the world and human nature itself in line with human desires and aspirations. The Polish philosopher Leszek Kolakowski called something like this the ‘Promethean Voluntarism’ at the core of Marx’s ideas.

    But if humanity came to be dominated by technology and a minority of elite creators/controllers, it would be more like proving people like Auguste Comte and the Positivists correct, that impersonal laws shape human behaviour and society and there are limits as to how far they can be changed. The New Left (e.g. Marcuse) used to rage against this sort of Positivism.

  269. @Greasy William
    @Sean

    Apparently the Abrams are to be supplied out of new orders, not existing stocks. So they won't be there until '24 at the earliest. As for the Leopards, believe it when I see it.

    I really don't think additional armor is going to help out the Ukrainians. No matter what weapons they have, they aren't going to be able to break through the Russian lines.

    Replies: @sudden death, @Sean

    Apparently the Abrams are to be supplied out of new orders, not existing stocks. So they won’t be there until ’24 at the earliest.

    Looks like it all being physically moved in Poland as we speak, ofc some chance is that might be just internal movements of existing Poland army inventory for their own military trainings, but…

    https://t.me/m0sc0wcalling/18677

  270. @Mikhail
    @Wokechoke

    Get a load of this wishful thinking idealistic screed from a US establishment realist venue:

    https://nationalinterest.org/feature/germany%E2%80%99s-leopard-2-tanks-will-help-crush-russia-206149

    Jacob Heilbrunn has gone full Ben Hodges, as in off the wall berserk. Bookmark this observation as time passes and reality sets in.

    Tanks are only as good as experienced crews with a specific tank model (Kiev regime forces lacking experience with the Leopards) and the air support they get against a formidable opponent.

    As has been noted elsewhere, the Kiev regime is working on the destruction of a third army. Its arsenal of weapons was greatly eliminated en masse shortly after 2/24/22. Then came the destruction of the refurbished T72 tanks and other weapons it received.

    For accuracy sake, it's high time to stop the BS like the ones saying:
    - Russia is losing
    - the Kiev regime captured a lot of Russian tanks
    - Russia is running out of missiles
    - along with overly rosy forecasts for the deployment of HIMARS, Javelins and the latest salvo of wonder weapons.

    Replies: @AnonfromTN

    All this BS is propaganda campaign to prevent Western sheeple protesting too much. That’s why MSM tell implausible tales about Russia losing (even though the war after 11 months is on the territory Ukraine considers its own), Russia is”running out of missiles and artillery ammo” every other day, and all those Javelins, HIMARS, and now tanks are decisive.

    The imperial strategy is to sacrifice Ukraine to weaken Russia as much as possible. There is no backing off for the empire now, so the war will drag on to the last Ukrainian (or until remaining Ukrainians finally put two and two together).

    • Replies: @Greasy William
    @AnonfromTN


    Russia is”running out of missiles and artillery ammo” every other day
     
    Actually I haven't heard that one for a while. The main cope I hear now is the "muh human wave attacks".
  271. @Ivashka the fool
    @HeavilyMarbledSteak


    kudos to him for being a little bit crazy
     
    I am too a little bit crazy. Can I have some kudos too ?

    And who's not crazy these days ?

    Crazy times man, crazy times...

    🙂

    (Actually AP is certainly among the most normal people I have interacted with on this forum. While both of us - me and you are certainly a little bit nuts. Therefore, you calling AP crazy is a little of kettle calling the pot back. )

    Replies: @HeavilyMarbledSteak

    Of course – kudos to you Bashi for enlivening this board with your craziness 🙂 May it long continue.

    I know what you mean about AP. In America people with his views and lifestyle are quite common, maybe less in Europe (I hope), but for a moment there I was having fun seeing him through Dmitry’s eyes where AP calls himself a Christian but has these weird Hindu casteist views and an eccentric rendition of Christianity that essentially flips the script 🙂

    But ultimately you are right and AP is actually the “normal” one here – I on the other hand am nuts, and revel in it 🙂

    And you’re pretty nuts yourself, which is awesome…

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @HeavilyMarbledSteak

    I enjoy reading the comments that all three of you post here (indeed, you three may be my favorite participants at this blogsite). I must be the one who's really nuts! ( A good time for all of my detractors here to signal an "agree", and the few fans that I've accumulated here too). :-)

    https://pyxis.nymag.com/v1/imgs/702/026/aa739477c50efd82f2597a95d776a9331f-looney-tunes-ranking-bugs-bunny.2x.rsocial.w600.jpg

    Replies: @Barbarossa

  272. @Greasy William
    @Sean

    Apparently the Abrams are to be supplied out of new orders, not existing stocks. So they won't be there until '24 at the earliest. As for the Leopards, believe it when I see it.

    I really don't think additional armor is going to help out the Ukrainians. No matter what weapons they have, they aren't going to be able to break through the Russian lines.

    Replies: @sudden death, @Sean

    The Abrams will have a lot of the advanced electronics stripped out it. That is what the Brits did with the Mastiff vehicle they donated to Ukraine. The US does not have all that much capacity for increasing artillery production because it did not rely on artillery very much. Countering Russian fires will by by deep strike precision missiles of nothing. If the US gave ATACMs, GLSDB, Gray Eagle, and F16s I think Ukraine would take back Crimea or at least make it untenable. America would like to, but clearly sees it as too risky for them as Putin would be pushed into a corner.

    Ukraine forgot that their country being whole is an incident not an end for the US. Hence, Ukraine is being denied the most effective (deep strike) weapons and–unable to do mobile warfare–is as a result being dragged into a rolling battle of attrition fronted by Prigozhin’s legion of lifers (locating enemy positions through being killed from them), and backed by ponderous but immense artillery fires.

  273. @AnonfromTN
    @Mikhail

    All this BS is propaganda campaign to prevent Western sheeple protesting too much. That’s why MSM tell implausible tales about Russia losing (even though the war after 11 months is on the territory Ukraine considers its own), Russia is”running out of missiles and artillery ammo” every other day, and all those Javelins, HIMARS, and now tanks are decisive.

    The imperial strategy is to sacrifice Ukraine to weaken Russia as much as possible. There is no backing off for the empire now, so the war will drag on to the last Ukrainian (or until remaining Ukrainians finally put two and two together).

    Replies: @Greasy William

    Russia is”running out of missiles and artillery ammo” every other day

    Actually I haven’t heard that one for a while. The main cope I hear now is the “muh human wave attacks”.

  274. @LatW
    @A123


    Elite EU leadership is about maximizing migrant inflows. Why would they help repatriate?
     
    Just because something has not been done before doesn't mean it cannot be done, even on an ad hoc basis. This extraordinary war has created a novel situation where many new approaches could be put in place.

    I was talking about Ukrainians specifically, not all migrants into the EU, so let's keep these separate (even if the repatriation of certain non-Ukrainians may be an issue as well). There is nothing in the EU that would keep Ukrainians from repatriating back to Ukraine, if they wanted so (as many of them do). The issue is purely technical - they are not able to return to their old homes and there is not enough housing for them in the Western parts of Ukraine that is readily available.

    Knowing that Europe’s leaders are against repatriation.
     

    In the case of Ukrainians, they are not. They only oppose repatriation of non-Europeans, as far as I can tell. If you want to push another one your anti-EU lies, then I can't help you.

    How would an international effort form & function?
     

    Because Ukraine is so deeply affected by the war, their government may not be able to fully organize this repatriation and are probably hoping and relying on the refugees own initiative to return. But there needs to be a more concerted effort. This would be tied to reconstruction when the time comes and possibly some construction of new housing already now in the more peaceful areas. The way it could function is the way that the current volunteer networks are already functioning. Ukraine's current closes allies could help.

    The U.S. is going to be an internally focused “basket case” for the next couple years. So, no leadership available here.
     

    I agree that the US has a leadership problem. But I wasn't thinking of the US here, but more of Europe & the UK. Those refugees who are in the US, I don't have much hope of repatriating them, as it may be too difficult already.

    As long as Europe’s Elites are aggressively pro migration, refugees with Ukrainian identity documents are highly likely to stay.
     
    If they had readily available housing in the peaceful areas of Ukraine as well as means to get by, a large chunk of them would be willing to return.

    Another option in more general terms, would be to create an E. European political group that would explicitly request the Western countries not to source Eastern European doctors and nurses (and even other vital professions). Yes, this does go against the idea of free movement of labor, but it can also be argued that EEs (including Ukraine) should not be strip mined in that manner (or should be compensated because the movement is too one sided and it is the EE countries who prepare these specialists).

    Pushing Zelensky to seek an immediate armistice would be ideal for repatriation. It would protect infrastructure in Ukraine’s West. What is Elite EU leadership doing? They are trying to push heavy tanks into they fray, extending the fight, and making repatriation less likely.

     

    To not support Ukraine is out of the question - the decision has been made to preserve Ukraine's statehood. It is no longer likely that West Ukraine (or even the majority of the center of the country) will be bombed out. It is possible that the hot phase of the war will be over by the end of the year, thus the repatriation efforts could be commenced (in fact, this could already be done now).

    Of course, the Ukrainian refugees are welcome to stay for as long as they need to.

    And, almost all of the ~⅓ MENA origin using forgeries.
     

    From what I understand, there is some filtering going on of MENA's who are pretending to be Ukrainian. Every person should be checked (this is the procedure anyway). I have heard that some have been sent to their country of origin.

    Replies: @A123

    Just because something has not been done before doesn’t mean it cannot be done

    There is a first time for everything. However, there are usually signs & effort leading up to such events.

    Is there any sign that Scholz and Macron are changing?

    I was talking about Ukrainians specifically, not all migrants into the EU, so let’s keep these separate (even if the repatriation of certain non-Ukrainians may be an issue as well).

    At a minimum Ukrainian document holders need to be talked about as a whole. That means that vast numbers of MENA migrants with forged papers will be impacted by any EU scheme.

    There is nothing in the EU that would keep Ukrainians from repatriating back to Ukraine, if they wanted so (as many of them do).

    If large numbers of authentic Ukrainians leave, the fiction of MENA origin “Ukrainians” becomes more visible. While there is nothing preventing repatriation, EU Elites have a vested interest in discouraging it.

    Creating an unfunded demand for services in frontier countries also strengthens Brussels ‘authoritarian liberalism’.

    The issue is purely technical – they are not able to return to their old homes and there is not enough housing for them in the Western parts of Ukraine that is readily available.

    They also need an end to the fighting, functioning infrastructure, and jobs.

    Continuing to escalate (e.g. Leopard tanks) is clearly a hazard to the first two. And, long term economic disruption is known to be bad for jobs.

    If EU leaders were interested in repatriation as a priority, then the first essential step is an armistice. The fact that the EU is not interested in any cessation of hostilities is a strong indication that they have no interest in reducing the current number of refugees.

    PEACE 😇

  275. @Barbarossa
    @RSDB


    If you are not saying that, you should be aware that it is likely that impression of your meaning to which people are replying.

     

    AP gives the overwhelming impression to me that he regards poor people as primarily social problems and not human beings. I also suspect that he doesn't mean to come across quite like that.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    Nothing could be further from the truth. He’s continually provided the opinion that these people need help from both a clinical and a spiritual point of view, but that they shouldn’t be coddled and held up for some sort of special worship (like some SJW’s seem to want). He’s also indicated that he’s personally worked with hundreds of these sorts of people in an inner city environment, so he’s well qualified to make personal opinions on this matter. His religious views on the subject matter have biblical groundings, as he’s used such sources to support his opinions. I leave room for divergent views from his opinions, as the subject matter indeed has some element of subjectivity to it.

    • Thanks: AP
    • Replies: @Barbarossa
    @Mr. Hack

    I get that and agree with you. However, as RSDB mentioned a lot of the reaction to AP has been more about his tone, coupled with the substance of his points. It seems to come across to me and others as an uncaring and callous attitude toward the poor.
    At the same time, I doubt that this reflects how AP actually is as a person.
    It is an internet forum after all, and the nuances of communication get lost. I thought it was worth reinforcing RSDB's point, since AP may want to reconsider how he makes certain points if there is a divergence between what he means and how he is understood.

    Replies: @AP

    , @RSDB
    @Mr. Hack

    The discussion centered around the following propositions :

    1. A reliable method exists for the quantification of sinfulness.

    [If I was asking on my own part, I would add to this proposition the following sentence: "Even if such a quantifying procedure does not now exist, it would be possible and desirable for a man to quantify the total degree of sinfulness of another man or group of men." But AP believes such a method already exists, so this addition would be unnecessary.]

    and

    2. The poor have been more sinful people[AP's phrasing]/worse people[my phrasing] than the rich for the last two hundred years or so.

    My understanding is that AP views these as sociological rather than religious propositions, which is why I asked him to take them to his priest, because I do not view them as purely sociological questions and I do not think it is safe to do so.

    I have also offered to follow AP's view and take them to a sociologist as sociological questions, although, as I mentioned, I will almost certainly be laughed out of the room.


    His religious views on the subject matter have biblical groundings, as he’s used such sources to support his opinions.
     
    "Religious views" may be overspecifying. In his comments to me, he has been very clear that his views on the subject are his own and not part of the apostolic Catholic or Orthodox traditions.

    But it is precisely a question whether these views have religious ramifications or not.

    Replies: @RSDB, @AP

  276. @HeavilyMarbledSteak
    @Ivashka the fool

    Of course - kudos to you Bashi for enlivening this board with your craziness :) May it long continue.

    I know what you mean about AP. In America people with his views and lifestyle are quite common, maybe less in Europe (I hope), but for a moment there I was having fun seeing him through Dmitry's eyes where AP calls himself a Christian but has these weird Hindu casteist views and an eccentric rendition of Christianity that essentially flips the script :)

    But ultimately you are right and AP is actually the "normal" one here - I on the other hand am nuts, and revel in it :)

    And you're pretty nuts yourself, which is awesome...

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    I enjoy reading the comments that all three of you post here (indeed, you three may be my favorite participants at this blogsite). I must be the one who’s really nuts! ( A good time for all of my detractors here to signal an “agree”, and the few fans that I’ve accumulated here too). 🙂

    • Agree: Ivashka the fool
    • Replies: @Barbarossa
    @Mr. Hack

    Well, if we are talking on Unz than it's a forgone conclusion that we must all be...ahem...idiosyncratic.

    That's what makes this place interesting. If I wanted to hear "normal" internet commentary I could scroll the comments at Breitbart!

    Replies: @songbird

  277. @Ivashka the fool
    @RSDB

    Gospel of Thomas is just a collection of sayings of Jesus presented in a no specific order and without any context. It is very similar to the synoptic (canonical) Gospels in its major part, but some sayings are somewhat longer and appear more complete.

    One of my favorite:


    3. Jesus said, "If your leaders say to you, 'Look, the (Father's) kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather, the (Father's) kingdom is within you and it is outside you.

    When you know yourselves, then you will be known, and you will understand that you are children of the living Father. But if you do not know yourselves, then you live in poverty, and you are the poverty."
     
    http://gnosis.org/naghamm/gosthom.html

    Replies: @RSDB

    Yes, it’s only that I was thinking that those two passages would likely not be why it was not accepted as a canonical Gospel, if what was in them was in the canonical Gospels as well.

    Sorry, I have a very simplistic mind.

    One of my favorite:

    Thank you. It’s an interesting work, to be sure.

  278. @Mr. Hack
    @Barbarossa

    Nothing could be further from the truth. He's continually provided the opinion that these people need help from both a clinical and a spiritual point of view, but that they shouldn't be coddled and held up for some sort of special worship (like some SJW's seem to want). He's also indicated that he's personally worked with hundreds of these sorts of people in an inner city environment, so he's well qualified to make personal opinions on this matter. His religious views on the subject matter have biblical groundings, as he's used such sources to support his opinions. I leave room for divergent views from his opinions, as the subject matter indeed has some element of subjectivity to it.

    Replies: @Barbarossa, @RSDB

    I get that and agree with you. However, as RSDB mentioned a lot of the reaction to AP has been more about his tone, coupled with the substance of his points. It seems to come across to me and others as an uncaring and callous attitude toward the poor.
    At the same time, I doubt that this reflects how AP actually is as a person.
    It is an internet forum after all, and the nuances of communication get lost. I thought it was worth reinforcing RSDB’s point, since AP may want to reconsider how he makes certain points if there is a divergence between what he means and how he is understood.

    • Replies: @AP
    @Barbarossa


    It seems to come across to me and others as an uncaring and callous attitude toward the poor.
     
    If I were uncaring I would write them off as hopeless and ignore them/isolate from them or, even worse, use their suffering as a prop and even celebrate it for my own purposes (I.e., to hold them up as positive examples in order to attack Christian society).

    Replies: @Another Polish Perspective

  279. @Thulean Friend
    I largely try to avoid posting about the RU-UA war since it's basically a meatgrinder without much happening in terms of territorial shifts. But this will be an exception.

    The Beeb has tried to calculate Russian KIA using verified open source methods and then inflated this number by 60% to get to a rough estimate. They get about 20K total KIA. I think closer to 30K is more realistic, but this is the ballpark we're talking about.

    Meanwhile, Ursula von der Leyen admitted 100K UA KIA a few weeks ago in a slip-up.

    https://twitter.com/MyLordBebo/status/1617954373832945666

    Whole thread is worth reading. Worth noting that Kremlin-critical liberal groups such as Mediazona have come to similar numbers in their own independent estimates.

    It does seem like UA has essentially pursued a policy of territorial maximalism at the cost of very heavy losses. Russia has done the exact opposite, in an apparent attrition tactic to simply bleed UA army dry. Often to the point of giving up territory willingly to maintain high K/D ratio.

    This would explain why the war drags on for so long and why it won't be over anytime soon. But looking at territorial advancements alone is probably a misleading metric given these dynamics.

    Replies: @Wokechoke, @Dmitry, @AnonfromTN, @AP

    The Beeb has tried to calculate Russian KIA using verified open source methods and then inflated this number by 60% to get to a rough estimate. They get about 20K total KIA

    Our former host estimates 45k Russian killed.

    This is supported by a piece of evidence, the statue in Saratov which listed the war dead back in December, before the bloody Bakhmut/Soledar battles. Extrapolated to all of Russia, the number was around low 30,000s back then IIRC. It did not include MIA so was an underestimate. So 45k currently makes sense. That 45k would not include Donbas forces KIA.

    Meanwhile, Ursula von der Leyen admitted 100K UA KIA a few weeks ago in a slip-up

    The slip up was that she meant total casualties. It seems low to me.

    [MORE]

    • Replies: @Wokechoke
    @AP

    Russia would be negotiating over Sevastopol if they’d lost 180,000 in one year.

    Replies: @AP

  280. @Mr. Hack
    @HeavilyMarbledSteak

    I enjoy reading the comments that all three of you post here (indeed, you three may be my favorite participants at this blogsite). I must be the one who's really nuts! ( A good time for all of my detractors here to signal an "agree", and the few fans that I've accumulated here too). :-)

    https://pyxis.nymag.com/v1/imgs/702/026/aa739477c50efd82f2597a95d776a9331f-looney-tunes-ranking-bugs-bunny.2x.rsocial.w600.jpg

    Replies: @Barbarossa

    Well, if we are talking on Unz than it’s a forgone conclusion that we must all be…ahem…idiosyncratic.

    That’s what makes this place interesting. If I wanted to hear “normal” internet commentary I could scroll the comments at Breitbart!

    • Agree: RSDB
    • Replies: @songbird
    @Barbarossa

    I agree. One of the best things about Unz is the characters.

    Problem with censorship is that it eliminates the characters. Twitter (which was really the best of the major platforms for character development, IMO) to me is like one of those Soviet photos with successive people air-brushed out.

  281. @Ivashka the fool
    Reply to Dmitry from the previous thread.

    RusFed demographics could be already around 110 - 115 million people. Ukrainian might have reached the 35 million territory. In Ukraine, most people would be Slav, but in RusFed Kadyrov has tweeted that Muslims have already reached 25% of the population from less than 10% around a generation ago. Imagine what it would be in a generation if we include the 10 - 15 million migrant workers from Central Asia.

    https://i.pinimg.com/originals/6d/2a/9e/6d2a9e4f3b26c83ab96390193ef719ae.jpg

    Moskvabad and Piterkent much...

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @Dmitry

    Pardon me, but perhaps a slight correction is in order?

    Imagine what it will be in a generation if we include the 10 – 15 million migrant workers from Central Asia.

    With all of the Slavs moving to the EU (Poles, Ukrainians, Russians) perhaps this will one day become the source of Moscow’s intrusions, because it will look like the new NovoRosija? 🙂

  282. @Mr. Hack
    @Barbarossa

    Nothing could be further from the truth. He's continually provided the opinion that these people need help from both a clinical and a spiritual point of view, but that they shouldn't be coddled and held up for some sort of special worship (like some SJW's seem to want). He's also indicated that he's personally worked with hundreds of these sorts of people in an inner city environment, so he's well qualified to make personal opinions on this matter. His religious views on the subject matter have biblical groundings, as he's used such sources to support his opinions. I leave room for divergent views from his opinions, as the subject matter indeed has some element of subjectivity to it.

    Replies: @Barbarossa, @RSDB

    The discussion centered around the following propositions :

    1. A reliable method exists for the quantification of sinfulness.

    [If I was asking on my own part, I would add to this proposition the following sentence: “Even if such a quantifying procedure does not now exist, it would be possible and desirable for a man to quantify the total degree of sinfulness of another man or group of men.” But AP believes such a method already exists, so this addition would be unnecessary.]

    and

    2. The poor have been more sinful people[AP’s phrasing]/worse people[my phrasing] than the rich for the last two hundred years or so.

    My understanding is that AP views these as sociological rather than religious propositions, which is why I asked him to take them to his priest, because I do not view them as purely sociological questions and I do not think it is safe to do so.

    I have also offered to follow AP’s view and take them to a sociologist as sociological questions, although, as I mentioned, I will almost certainly be laughed out of the room.

    His religious views on the subject matter have biblical groundings, as he’s used such sources to support his opinions.

    “Religious views” may be overspecifying. In his comments to me, he has been very clear that his views on the subject are his own and not part of the apostolic Catholic or Orthodox traditions.

    But it is precisely a question whether these views have religious ramifications or not.

    • Agree: Barbarossa
    • Replies: @RSDB
    @RSDB

    Correction: Actually so far I have only offered to take the first proposition to a sociologist if asked, but I can take the other as well, it's no added effort except looking a bit silly.

    , @AP
    @RSDB


    1. A reliable method exists for the quantification of sinfulness.
     
    Are sins associated with certain behaviors? Lust with number of sexual partners, for example? Wrath with assault or murder? Gluttony with obesity and drug abuse?

    If so, then can sins not be measured and thus quantified?

    So person X assaulted five people, abuses alcohol, has stolen, has slept with 10 women, person Y has not assaulted anyone, does not abuse alcohol, does not steal, and is faithful to his wife, therefore person X has committed more measurable sins than has person Y.

    I am not suggesting that all sins can be measured - we can't measure what people are thinking, sarcasm and rudeness are harder to measure than physical assault, one can't quanity a cold heart. But just as homicide rate can serve as a rough but valid proxy for crime in general, these identifying and measurable sins can serve as a rough but valid proxy for sinfulness.

    So in this limited and still significant way, it would appear that one can measure sinfulness.

    The poor have been more sinful people[AP’s phrasing]/worse people[my phrasing]
     
    1. I don't think it's phrasing, the meanings are different. Sinful means - having engaged in sin more. Worse is a value judgment. They may be linked - it's hard to say that a pedophile murderer is not worse than someone who has never done such things. But not quite the same.

    2. If sins can be measured (as it seems is likely - we can measure assaults, sexual partner number, etc.) than it follows that certain groups can be identified as engaging in more or less sin than do other groups. We can compare crime rate, numbers of average sexual partners, etc. to make broad and general conclusions about different groups of people regarding sinfulness. As with other measures such as IQ, such averages do not determine what is true of a given individual from each group.

    I do not think it is safe to do so.
     
    Could you please elaborate on why to you, it does not seem safe to do so? That is, why might it be unsafe to quantify observable sinful behaviors to see patterns among groups, as long as one is careful not to judge individuals based on the group averages?

    In his comments to me, he has been very clear that his views on the subject are his own and not part of the apostolic Catholic or Orthodox traditions.
     
    On this particular topic and methodology, the Church has nothing to say AFAIK. But in general my views on topics of religious discussion are as far as I know have been supported by sources I have provided, in line with standard Orthodox and Catholic traditions.

    Replies: @RSDB, @RSDB, @Barbarossa

  283. @RSDB
    @Mr. Hack

    The discussion centered around the following propositions :

    1. A reliable method exists for the quantification of sinfulness.

    [If I was asking on my own part, I would add to this proposition the following sentence: "Even if such a quantifying procedure does not now exist, it would be possible and desirable for a man to quantify the total degree of sinfulness of another man or group of men." But AP believes such a method already exists, so this addition would be unnecessary.]

    and

    2. The poor have been more sinful people[AP's phrasing]/worse people[my phrasing] than the rich for the last two hundred years or so.

    My understanding is that AP views these as sociological rather than religious propositions, which is why I asked him to take them to his priest, because I do not view them as purely sociological questions and I do not think it is safe to do so.

    I have also offered to follow AP's view and take them to a sociologist as sociological questions, although, as I mentioned, I will almost certainly be laughed out of the room.


    His religious views on the subject matter have biblical groundings, as he’s used such sources to support his opinions.
     
    "Religious views" may be overspecifying. In his comments to me, he has been very clear that his views on the subject are his own and not part of the apostolic Catholic or Orthodox traditions.

    But it is precisely a question whether these views have religious ramifications or not.

    Replies: @RSDB, @AP

    Correction: Actually so far I have only offered to take the first proposition to a sociologist if asked, but I can take the other as well, it’s no added effort except looking a bit silly.

  284. @Dmitry
    @AP

    But if you were Christian and god-fearing, you would believe you were the most likely person of any to enter hell, as the views you promote just objectively match what the worst sins according to the teaching of the Catholic church, every view being related to self-justifying yourself, or pride vicariously (to the things you associate with yourself) or often directly, trying to elevate yourself above other people.

    I'm not criticizing your posts, as your right for an opinion is not worse or better than anyone, and posts of god-fearing people might be very boring, but unless this is trolling or ignorance, why do you talk about Christianity when the views promoted in your posts are objectively opposite of the mainstream views of Christianity. It's like someone saying their views are Buddhist and that Buddha said attachment is good.

    Replies: @HeavilyMarbledSteak, @AP

    But if you were Christian and god-fearing, you would believe you were the most likely person of any to enter hell, as the views you promote just objectively match what the worst sins according to the teaching of the Catholic church

    Nobody knows who will or will not go to Hell, but none of us deserve salvation on our own merits.

    Indeed almost every week I publicly state and implore:

    “Боже, милостивий будь мені, грішному Боже, очисти мої гріхи і помилуй мене.
    Без числа нагрішив я, Господи, прости мені.

    What I have written has been supported by the teachings of the Church, and I have provided links to those. For example my attitude towards wealth matches this:

    https://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=2944

    I am very pleased that the one devout Orthodox Christian here, who knows more about such matter than either of us do, confirms that I am on the right track in my opinions, and those that disagree with me are a collection of atheists, apostates, and heathens (a description, not judgment).

    every view being related to self-justifying yourself

    I organize my life in such a way that it is as good as I can make it.

    why do you talk about Christianity when the views promoted in your posts are objectively opposite of the mainstream views of Christianity

    This is a false statement.

    I provide evidence for my views matching those of mainstream Christianity. You, the atheist, and AaronB (some kind of heathen?) do what cultists and sectarians do: cherry-pick quotes from the Bible to support things that the Church does not. So he does that to pretend that his self-indulgent nature tourism places him in a similar category as ascetic Church fathers. You do that because, I suppose, you like a debate. I don’t mind that, it inspired me to review Church teaching.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @AP


    I am very pleased that the one devout Orthodox Christian here, who knows more about such matter than either of us do, confirms that I am on the right track in my opinions, and those that disagree with me are a collection of atheists, apostates, and heathens (a description, not judgment).
     


    I never wrote nor inferred the highlighted portion of your quotation? I've been trying to ardently convey that the subject matter at hand (at this point, I admit that I'm a little bit at a loss to recite exactly what that is), seems to encompass a large spectrum of opinions. There's no right or wrong interpretation, although you make a strong case for your opinions and I would be very hesitant to categorize them as un-Christian. Aaron also has some valid points. Wouldn't we all agree that the gospels often pose some seemingly contradictory views that force us to deeply consider things, but in the end "all things are possible with God". No easy answers in this life.....

    Replies: @AP, @Ivashka the fool

    , @RSDB
    @AP


    What I have written has been supported by the teachings of the Church, and I have provided links to those.
     
    I think what people are arguing with you about, except Mikel who does have an issue with reconciling the Gospel and the teachings of the Church and with whom you are doing a good job arguing, are precisely the views you have stated are your own and not the teachings of the Church.
    , @Another Polish Perspective
    @AP



    none of us deserve salvation on our own merits.
     

     
    Pretty protestant statement again, and based almost exclusively on St Paul teachings, like Letter to Ephesians 2:8-9, or Letter to Romans 9:14-18. It is clear you do not understand the importance of the Letter of St James (see my comment no 133) as a response to St Paul. So what do you think about this is a matter of your opinion on St Paul, who is - to remind you - the favourite teacher of Protestants, and in many ways, a pretty divisive character as a self-appointed apostle, and in conflict with others (like St James).

    Putting aside the matter of the original sin (which, strangely, is not a part of Judaism, was not a part of Judeochristianity, but only of Pauline Christianity- it is St Paul doctrine, again ), you don't seem to be correct here. At least in Catholicism you could say that your ultimate goal is to become a saint - you cannot go further than that in being Christian. On the other hand, I heard that Orthodoxy has an idea of much more corrupted human nature than Catholicism - this is why the Orthodox expect a direct intervention of God in their lives through theosis. The reverse of that is that the Orthodox allow themselves often to wallow in sins (Russia & Ukraine being known for alcoholism, prostitution and racketeering practices - practices you could say are affirmation of corruption of human nature ), since their actions will change nothing without direct help of God: so I read at least.

    Replies: @AP

    , @Ivashka the fool
    @AP


    collection of atheists, apostates, and heathens
     
    Guilty as charged.

    Even though I did not expect such Spanish Inquisition...

    https://live.staticflickr.com/3779/10780220965_489a1c355d_b.jpg

    Bring in the cushy pillows!

    🙂

    Now seriously, I think the debate between you AB and Dima is not theological, but social and psychological. You defend "conservative values", and sometimes use religious justifications to uphold these. They being younger and somewhat "Romantic" (to use Dima's vocabulary), defend more "progressive social norms" and also use Scripture to justify their take on these.

    Your whole debate is nothing new, people have often used religious justification to bolster their opinions on the way society should be organized. All this is typical human egotism and has nothing to do with God. As long as we all avoid St Barthelemy's nights and Holy Crusades, we will all stay good friends.

    One last thing, I (the apostate / heathen / whatever) do not doubt a minute that you do your best to be a good Christian. Just like I do my best to be a good "apostate / heathen / whatever"...

    🙂

    Replies: @songbird, @AP, @Dmitry

  285. @Barbarossa
    @Mr. Hack

    I get that and agree with you. However, as RSDB mentioned a lot of the reaction to AP has been more about his tone, coupled with the substance of his points. It seems to come across to me and others as an uncaring and callous attitude toward the poor.
    At the same time, I doubt that this reflects how AP actually is as a person.
    It is an internet forum after all, and the nuances of communication get lost. I thought it was worth reinforcing RSDB's point, since AP may want to reconsider how he makes certain points if there is a divergence between what he means and how he is understood.

    Replies: @AP

    It seems to come across to me and others as an uncaring and callous attitude toward the poor.

    If I were uncaring I would write them off as hopeless and ignore them/isolate from them or, even worse, use their suffering as a prop and even celebrate it for my own purposes (I.e., to hold them up as positive examples in order to attack Christian society).

    • Replies: @Another Polish Perspective
    @AP

    "That boy needs a therapy!
    That boy needs a therapy!
    (...)
    What does it mean?
    You are a nut!
    You are crazy in the coconut!"

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLrnkK2YEcE

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

  286. @AP
    @Dmitry


    But if you were Christian and god-fearing, you would believe you were the most likely person of any to enter hell, as the views you promote just objectively match what the worst sins according to the teaching of the Catholic church
     
    Nobody knows who will or will not go to Hell, but none of us deserve salvation on our own merits.

    Indeed almost every week I publicly state and implore:

    “Боже, милостивий будь мені, грішному Боже, очисти мої гріхи і помилуй мене.
    Без числа нагрішив я, Господи, прости мені.

    What I have written has been supported by the teachings of the Church, and I have provided links to those. For example my attitude towards wealth matches this:

    https://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=2944

    I am very pleased that the one devout Orthodox Christian here, who knows more about such matter than either of us do, confirms that I am on the right track in my opinions, and those that disagree with me are a collection of atheists, apostates, and heathens (a description, not judgment).

    every view being related to self-justifying yourself
     
    I organize my life in such a way that it is as good as I can make it.

    why do you talk about Christianity when the views promoted in your posts are objectively opposite of the mainstream views of Christianity
     
    This is a false statement.

    I provide evidence for my views matching those of mainstream Christianity. You, the atheist, and AaronB (some kind of heathen?) do what cultists and sectarians do: cherry-pick quotes from the Bible to support things that the Church does not. So he does that to pretend that his self-indulgent nature tourism places him in a similar category as ascetic Church fathers. You do that because, I suppose, you like a debate. I don’t mind that, it inspired me to review Church teaching.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @RSDB, @Another Polish Perspective, @Ivashka the fool

    I am very pleased that the one devout Orthodox Christian here, who knows more about such matter than either of us do, confirms that I am on the right track in my opinions, and those that disagree with me are a collection of atheists, apostates, and heathens (a description, not judgment).

    I never wrote nor inferred the highlighted portion of your quotation? I’ve been trying to ardently convey that the subject matter at hand (at this point, I admit that I’m a little bit at a loss to recite exactly what that is), seems to encompass a large spectrum of opinions. There’s no right or wrong interpretation, although you make a strong case for your opinions and I would be very hesitant to categorize them as un-Christian. Aaron also has some valid points. Wouldn’t we all agree that the gospels often pose some seemingly contradictory views that force us to deeply consider things, but in the end “all things are possible with God”. No easy answers in this life…..

    • Replies: @AP
    @Mr. Hack

    To be clear I did not mean to attribute the bolded part to you. I should have written that part first, to avoid the confusion.

    , @Ivashka the fool
    @Mr. Hack


    “all things are possible with God”
     
    Amen !

    Replies: @A123

  287. @AP
    @Dmitry


    But if you were Christian and god-fearing, you would believe you were the most likely person of any to enter hell, as the views you promote just objectively match what the worst sins according to the teaching of the Catholic church
     
    Nobody knows who will or will not go to Hell, but none of us deserve salvation on our own merits.

    Indeed almost every week I publicly state and implore:

    “Боже, милостивий будь мені, грішному Боже, очисти мої гріхи і помилуй мене.
    Без числа нагрішив я, Господи, прости мені.

    What I have written has been supported by the teachings of the Church, and I have provided links to those. For example my attitude towards wealth matches this:

    https://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=2944

    I am very pleased that the one devout Orthodox Christian here, who knows more about such matter than either of us do, confirms that I am on the right track in my opinions, and those that disagree with me are a collection of atheists, apostates, and heathens (a description, not judgment).

    every view being related to self-justifying yourself
     
    I organize my life in such a way that it is as good as I can make it.

    why do you talk about Christianity when the views promoted in your posts are objectively opposite of the mainstream views of Christianity
     
    This is a false statement.

    I provide evidence for my views matching those of mainstream Christianity. You, the atheist, and AaronB (some kind of heathen?) do what cultists and sectarians do: cherry-pick quotes from the Bible to support things that the Church does not. So he does that to pretend that his self-indulgent nature tourism places him in a similar category as ascetic Church fathers. You do that because, I suppose, you like a debate. I don’t mind that, it inspired me to review Church teaching.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @RSDB, @Another Polish Perspective, @Ivashka the fool

    What I have written has been supported by the teachings of the Church, and I have provided links to those.

    I think what people are arguing with you about, except Mikel who does have an issue with reconciling the Gospel and the teachings of the Church and with whom you are doing a good job arguing, are precisely the views you have stated are your own and not the teachings of the Church.

  288. @Mr. Hack
    @AP


    I am very pleased that the one devout Orthodox Christian here, who knows more about such matter than either of us do, confirms that I am on the right track in my opinions, and those that disagree with me are a collection of atheists, apostates, and heathens (a description, not judgment).
     


    I never wrote nor inferred the highlighted portion of your quotation? I've been trying to ardently convey that the subject matter at hand (at this point, I admit that I'm a little bit at a loss to recite exactly what that is), seems to encompass a large spectrum of opinions. There's no right or wrong interpretation, although you make a strong case for your opinions and I would be very hesitant to categorize them as un-Christian. Aaron also has some valid points. Wouldn't we all agree that the gospels often pose some seemingly contradictory views that force us to deeply consider things, but in the end "all things are possible with God". No easy answers in this life.....

    Replies: @AP, @Ivashka the fool

    To be clear I did not mean to attribute the bolded part to you. I should have written that part first, to avoid the confusion.

  289. @AP
    @Dmitry


    But if you were Christian and god-fearing, you would believe you were the most likely person of any to enter hell, as the views you promote just objectively match what the worst sins according to the teaching of the Catholic church
     
    Nobody knows who will or will not go to Hell, but none of us deserve salvation on our own merits.

    Indeed almost every week I publicly state and implore:

    “Боже, милостивий будь мені, грішному Боже, очисти мої гріхи і помилуй мене.
    Без числа нагрішив я, Господи, прости мені.

    What I have written has been supported by the teachings of the Church, and I have provided links to those. For example my attitude towards wealth matches this:

    https://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=2944

    I am very pleased that the one devout Orthodox Christian here, who knows more about such matter than either of us do, confirms that I am on the right track in my opinions, and those that disagree with me are a collection of atheists, apostates, and heathens (a description, not judgment).

    every view being related to self-justifying yourself
     
    I organize my life in such a way that it is as good as I can make it.

    why do you talk about Christianity when the views promoted in your posts are objectively opposite of the mainstream views of Christianity
     
    This is a false statement.

    I provide evidence for my views matching those of mainstream Christianity. You, the atheist, and AaronB (some kind of heathen?) do what cultists and sectarians do: cherry-pick quotes from the Bible to support things that the Church does not. So he does that to pretend that his self-indulgent nature tourism places him in a similar category as ascetic Church fathers. You do that because, I suppose, you like a debate. I don’t mind that, it inspired me to review Church teaching.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @RSDB, @Another Polish Perspective, @Ivashka the fool

    none of us deserve salvation on our own merits.

    Pretty protestant statement again, and based almost exclusively on St Paul teachings, like Letter to Ephesians 2:8-9, or Letter to Romans 9:14-18. It is clear you do not understand the importance of the Letter of St James (see my comment no 133) as a response to St Paul. So what do you think about this is a matter of your opinion on St Paul, who is – to remind you – the favourite teacher of Protestants, and in many ways, a pretty divisive character as a self-appointed apostle, and in conflict with others (like St James).

    Putting aside the matter of the original sin (which, strangely, is not a part of Judaism, was not a part of Judeochristianity, but only of Pauline Christianity- it is St Paul doctrine, again ), you don’t seem to be correct here. At least in Catholicism you could say that your ultimate goal is to become a saint – you cannot go further than that in being Christian. On the other hand, I heard that Orthodoxy has an idea of much more corrupted human nature than Catholicism – this is why the Orthodox expect a direct intervention of God in their lives through theosis. The reverse of that is that the Orthodox allow themselves often to wallow in sins (Russia & Ukraine being known for alcoholism, prostitution and racketeering practices – practices you could say are affirmation of corruption of human nature ), since their actions will change nothing without direct help of God: so I read at least.

    • Replies: @AP
    @Another Polish Perspective


    “none of us deserve salvation on our own merits.”

    Pretty protestant statement again
     
    This is said during the liturgy of Saint John Chrysostom, when we explicitly refer to ourselves several times as sinful and unworthy servants and implore God to grant mercy and forgiveness. Is not something similar said during the Catholic Mass?

    It is clear you do not understand the importance of the Letter of St James (see my comment no 133) as a response to St Paul
     
    I just follow the Church as best I can. Out of curiosity, are you a Protestant, or someone who has left the Church?

    The reverse of that is that the Orthodox allow themselves often to wallow in sins (Russia & Ukraine being known for alcoholism, prostitution and racketeering practices – practices you could say are affirmation of corruption of human nature
     
    Ukrainians and Russians are generally more sinful than are Poles but this seems to be more the influence of Soviet Communism than of Orthodoxy and Greek Catholicism. Within Ukraine, the places with a shorter history of Communist rule show significantly lower rates of sinful behaviors. Catholic Lithuania does not seem to have much lower rates of sinful behavior than does Western Ukraine.
  290. @AP
    @Dmitry


    But if you were Christian and god-fearing, you would believe you were the most likely person of any to enter hell, as the views you promote just objectively match what the worst sins according to the teaching of the Catholic church
     
    Nobody knows who will or will not go to Hell, but none of us deserve salvation on our own merits.

    Indeed almost every week I publicly state and implore:

    “Боже, милостивий будь мені, грішному Боже, очисти мої гріхи і помилуй мене.
    Без числа нагрішив я, Господи, прости мені.

    What I have written has been supported by the teachings of the Church, and I have provided links to those. For example my attitude towards wealth matches this:

    https://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=2944

    I am very pleased that the one devout Orthodox Christian here, who knows more about such matter than either of us do, confirms that I am on the right track in my opinions, and those that disagree with me are a collection of atheists, apostates, and heathens (a description, not judgment).

    every view being related to self-justifying yourself
     
    I organize my life in such a way that it is as good as I can make it.

    why do you talk about Christianity when the views promoted in your posts are objectively opposite of the mainstream views of Christianity
     
    This is a false statement.

    I provide evidence for my views matching those of mainstream Christianity. You, the atheist, and AaronB (some kind of heathen?) do what cultists and sectarians do: cherry-pick quotes from the Bible to support things that the Church does not. So he does that to pretend that his self-indulgent nature tourism places him in a similar category as ascetic Church fathers. You do that because, I suppose, you like a debate. I don’t mind that, it inspired me to review Church teaching.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @RSDB, @Another Polish Perspective, @Ivashka the fool

    collection of atheists, apostates, and heathens

    Guilty as charged.

    Even though I did not expect such Spanish Inquisition…

    Bring in the cushy pillows!

    🙂

    Now seriously, I think the debate between you AB and Dima is not theological, but social and psychological. You defend “conservative values”, and sometimes use religious justifications to uphold these. They being younger and somewhat “Romantic” (to use Dima’s vocabulary), defend more “progressive social norms” and also use Scripture to justify their take on these.

    Your whole debate is nothing new, people have often used religious justification to bolster their opinions on the way society should be organized. All this is typical human egotism and has nothing to do with God. As long as we all avoid St Barthelemy’s nights and Holy Crusades, we will all stay good friends.

    One last thing, I (the apostate / heathen / whatever) do not doubt a minute that you do your best to be a good Christian. Just like I do my best to be a good “apostate / heathen / whatever”…

    🙂

    • Replies: @songbird
    @Ivashka the fool

    Someone needs to create a black legend series of Legos for different countries/races.

    , @AP
    @Ivashka the fool


    As long as we all avoid St Barthelemy’s nights and Holy Crusades, we will all stay good friends.
     
    The Crusader Song in Ukrainian is nice though (h/t LatW):

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=skem-8pHCYw&t=61s

    Replies: @Ivashka the fool, @Ivashka the fool

    , @Dmitry
    @Ivashka the fool


    AB and Dima is not theological, but social and psychological.
     
    Trigger for the discussion about homeless people in America (i.e. social and psychological), but the points I was saying to AP after are just the objective facts about the religion. If someone writes the opposite of the mainstream teaching in e.g. catechism of the Catholic church.

    That is the discussion begins more subjectively. But the parts in the last few posts is objective.


    and also use Scripture to justify their take on these.
     
    Scripture and mainstream interpretation says the opposite of those takes. It doesn't mean the takes are incorrect. But there is labeling - you know, there are regulations about this in areas like the food industry. In this forum, it's a kind of rhetorical game, where I just skip reading those parts of his posts where there is incorrect labeling, as it's not where the interesting content is (although AP has interesting point of view of the world, which is unusual and individual).

    defend “conservative values”, and sometimes use religious justifications to uphold these. They being younger and somewhat “Romantic” (to use Dima’s vocabulary), defend more “progressive social norms”
     
    AP defends "Anti-Christ", or "pagan", values, which is socially taboo to say publicly in Europe unless you are Hindu, because of the thousand year of Christian programming "this is not our way".

    So, people can believe rich are better than poor, but they would feel a bit self-conscious to say publicly, because there is the religious programming, which continues also in secular culture. But AP doesn't have this taboo and can throw old vegetables on the people below, from the palace walls.

    He has right for his view. Maybe he is correct and others incorrect. Maybe throwing vegetables is the valid behavior. Perhaps, religion is only social utility. If Mormons are socially useful, then perhaps we shouldn't criticize their belief. Those pagan value system include both happy/optimistic and dark/gloomy side. It's not reduced to conservative/progressive. In some areas, it can be more tolerant (e.g. his view about Mormons is more progressive than my view), in other areas it can be less progressive (e.g. in terms of redistribution).

    In the past, AP was usually focusing more on the happy/optimistic side of his values. After February, you can see he includes more of the dark/gloomy side, probably because the world events. This is interesting, because there is such dark and light side in any of the values, but the dark and light side will be in different areas. There are some of the side of viewing the morality in terms of self-interest, social utility, which feels less easy to accept.

    Replies: @AP, @RSDB

  291. @Mr. Hack
    @AP


    I am very pleased that the one devout Orthodox Christian here, who knows more about such matter than either of us do, confirms that I am on the right track in my opinions, and those that disagree with me are a collection of atheists, apostates, and heathens (a description, not judgment).
     


    I never wrote nor inferred the highlighted portion of your quotation? I've been trying to ardently convey that the subject matter at hand (at this point, I admit that I'm a little bit at a loss to recite exactly what that is), seems to encompass a large spectrum of opinions. There's no right or wrong interpretation, although you make a strong case for your opinions and I would be very hesitant to categorize them as un-Christian. Aaron also has some valid points. Wouldn't we all agree that the gospels often pose some seemingly contradictory views that force us to deeply consider things, but in the end "all things are possible with God". No easy answers in this life.....

    Replies: @AP, @Ivashka the fool

    “all things are possible with God”

    Amen !

    • Replies: @A123
    @Ivashka the fool



    “all things are possible with God”
     
    Amen !
     
    It is important to place this in its proper context.

    • God helps those who help themselves.
    • If you insist on doing something incredibly stupid, God is unlikely to help you.

    PEACE 😇

    Replies: @Ivashka the fool

  292. @Ivashka the fool
    @Emil Nikola Richard

    Whitney Webb is wonderful.

    Her Covid articles on Last American Vagabond and UR were fascinating.

    https://www.thelastamericanvagabond.com/category/whitney-webb/

    https://www.unz.com/author/whitney-webb/

    Of course, being a journalist, she often makes claims that no molecular biologist would do. Nevertheless, her writing is a worthy read.

    I wish her to "live long and prosper", but don't really count on it too much.

    She's probably an unwilling member of the Suicide Squad by now.

    Emil, you realize that it is a major thought-crime to read these books?

    Someone should scan them and put the PDFs online.

    🙂

    Replies: @LondonBob

    Ryan Dawson originates much of Whitney Webb’s stuff, at least he believes so.

  293. @Ivashka the fool
    @AP


    collection of atheists, apostates, and heathens
     
    Guilty as charged.

    Even though I did not expect such Spanish Inquisition...

    https://live.staticflickr.com/3779/10780220965_489a1c355d_b.jpg

    Bring in the cushy pillows!

    🙂

    Now seriously, I think the debate between you AB and Dima is not theological, but social and psychological. You defend "conservative values", and sometimes use religious justifications to uphold these. They being younger and somewhat "Romantic" (to use Dima's vocabulary), defend more "progressive social norms" and also use Scripture to justify their take on these.

    Your whole debate is nothing new, people have often used religious justification to bolster their opinions on the way society should be organized. All this is typical human egotism and has nothing to do with God. As long as we all avoid St Barthelemy's nights and Holy Crusades, we will all stay good friends.

    One last thing, I (the apostate / heathen / whatever) do not doubt a minute that you do your best to be a good Christian. Just like I do my best to be a good "apostate / heathen / whatever"...

    🙂

    Replies: @songbird, @AP, @Dmitry

    Someone needs to create a black legend series of Legos for different countries/races.

    • Agree: Ivashka the fool
  294. The image above is the emblem of the European Council.

    For those who do not get the meaning of the image, it is the typical Bell Beaker pot covered into a Corded Ware ornamentation.

    Simply put, according to this hybrid symbol Europe = Corded Ware + Bell Beaker.

    Looks like I am not the only one interested in the R1a / R1b haplogroups and their historical interactions.

  295. Ugledar on the menu now. Unless a large reserve is being kept and trained than maybe the locals will be wrong and it will be all over before the end of the summer. Brusilov would like a concerted broad front push.

    [MORE]

  296. @Barbarossa
    @Mr. Hack

    Well, if we are talking on Unz than it's a forgone conclusion that we must all be...ahem...idiosyncratic.

    That's what makes this place interesting. If I wanted to hear "normal" internet commentary I could scroll the comments at Breitbart!

    Replies: @songbird

    I agree. One of the best things about Unz is the characters.

    Problem with censorship is that it eliminates the characters. Twitter (which was really the best of the major platforms for character development, IMO) to me is like one of those Soviet photos with successive people air-brushed out.

  297. What is the purge in Kiev all about?

    • Replies: @Ivashka the fool
    @LondonBob

    US taking full control and pushing the UK subservient Khokhols towards the exit. The Brits have overplayed their hand in the Intermarium project. All must be equal under the Pentagon's MIC.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @LondonBob

  298. @AP
    @Barbarossa


    It seems to come across to me and others as an uncaring and callous attitude toward the poor.
     
    If I were uncaring I would write them off as hopeless and ignore them/isolate from them or, even worse, use their suffering as a prop and even celebrate it for my own purposes (I.e., to hold them up as positive examples in order to attack Christian society).

    Replies: @Another Polish Perspective

    “That boy needs a therapy!
    That boy needs a therapy!
    (…)
    What does it mean?
    You are a nut!
    You are crazy in the coconut!”

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @Another Polish Perspective

    Some consider Malcolm Mclaren to have been a musical genius, others no doubt consider him to have been a flake who specialized in publicity stunts. I consider him to have been a little of both, but mostly my personal guide to the world of human insanity. Listening to his music provides me with a good escape into esoterica, playfulness and daydreaming. Not bad?

    https://youtu.be/3JN8o8-ZK5s

    Q: Are you crazy?

    A: No, I'm (Yo)ucrainian. :-)

  299. @Ivashka the fool
    @Mr. Hack


    “all things are possible with God”
     
    Amen !

    Replies: @A123

    “all things are possible with God”

    Amen !

    It is important to place this in its proper context.

    • God helps those who help themselves.
    • If you insist on doing something incredibly stupid, God is unlikely to help you.

    PEACE 😇

    • Replies: @Ivashka the fool
    @A123


    If you insist on doing something incredibly stupid
     
    Rest assured, I only do moderately stupid things and have only been moderately successful at doing it.

    🙂



    Given your deep known affection towards the Sorosoid Islamo-fascist SJWs, I would like to share with you one of my life's role models.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nasreddin

    https://ethnoworld.ru/upload/medialibrary/874/874c5c40345142d4ece65e94f4a01aa0.jpg

    When I was a kid I read an excellent novel about his Ferghana adventures. A life changing experience...

    https://www.amazon.ca/Tale-Hodja-Nasreddin-Disturber-Peace/dp/0981269508

    🙂

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

  300. @A123
    @Ivashka the fool



    “all things are possible with God”
     
    Amen !
     
    It is important to place this in its proper context.

    • God helps those who help themselves.
    • If you insist on doing something incredibly stupid, God is unlikely to help you.

    PEACE 😇

    Replies: @Ivashka the fool

    If you insist on doing something incredibly stupid

    Rest assured, I only do moderately stupid things and have only been moderately successful at doing it.

    🙂

    [MORE]

    Given your deep known affection towards the Sorosoid Islamo-fascist SJWs, I would like to share with you one of my life’s role models.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nasreddin

    When I was a kid I read an excellent novel about his Ferghana adventures. A life changing experience…

    🙂

    • LOL: A123
    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @Ivashka the fool


    Rest assured, I only do moderately stupid things and have only been moderately successful at doing it.
     
    Got to love that quotation! Sounds like something that Woody Allen would say.

    As far as your cushy room for undergoing a Spanish inquisition rehabilitation process, I would suggest intense scrutiny of all off Malcom Mclaren video clips, something like what poor Alex had to undergo within a Clockwork Orange. Sorry, but you set yourself up for this. :-)

    https://youtu.be/3Y9fH-wexYc

  301. @Another Polish Perspective
    @AP

    "That boy needs a therapy!
    That boy needs a therapy!
    (...)
    What does it mean?
    You are a nut!
    You are crazy in the coconut!"

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLrnkK2YEcE

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    Some consider Malcolm Mclaren to have been a musical genius, others no doubt consider him to have been a flake who specialized in publicity stunts. I consider him to have been a little of both, but mostly my personal guide to the world of human insanity. Listening to his music provides me with a good escape into esoterica, playfulness and daydreaming. Not bad?

    Q: Are you crazy?

    A: No, I’m (Yo)ucrainian. 🙂

  302. @LondonBob
    What is the purge in Kiev all about?

    Replies: @Ivashka the fool

    US taking full control and pushing the UK subservient Khokhols towards the exit. The Brits have overplayed their hand in the Intermarium project. All must be equal under the Pentagon’s MIC.

    • LOL: Mr. Hack
    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @Ivashka the fool

    So the war's primary purpose is to allow oligarch malfeasance? Once that's curtailed the Ukranian war effort to defend itself from those nasty orcs will naturally peter out? Zelensky works for the Brits now? LOL!

    , @LondonBob
    @Ivashka the fool

    Does follow shortly after Burns's visit to Kiev, interesting article by Helmer that the US government is looking for a way out.

    http://johnhelmer.org/blinken-concedes-war-is-lost-offers-kremlin-ukrainian-demilitarization-crimea-donbass-zaporozhe-and-restriction-of-new-tanks-to-western-ukraine-if-there-is-no-russian-offensive/

    Replies: @Emil Nikola Richard

  303. @Another Polish Perspective
    @AP



    none of us deserve salvation on our own merits.
     

     
    Pretty protestant statement again, and based almost exclusively on St Paul teachings, like Letter to Ephesians 2:8-9, or Letter to Romans 9:14-18. It is clear you do not understand the importance of the Letter of St James (see my comment no 133) as a response to St Paul. So what do you think about this is a matter of your opinion on St Paul, who is - to remind you - the favourite teacher of Protestants, and in many ways, a pretty divisive character as a self-appointed apostle, and in conflict with others (like St James).

    Putting aside the matter of the original sin (which, strangely, is not a part of Judaism, was not a part of Judeochristianity, but only of Pauline Christianity- it is St Paul doctrine, again ), you don't seem to be correct here. At least in Catholicism you could say that your ultimate goal is to become a saint - you cannot go further than that in being Christian. On the other hand, I heard that Orthodoxy has an idea of much more corrupted human nature than Catholicism - this is why the Orthodox expect a direct intervention of God in their lives through theosis. The reverse of that is that the Orthodox allow themselves often to wallow in sins (Russia & Ukraine being known for alcoholism, prostitution and racketeering practices - practices you could say are affirmation of corruption of human nature ), since their actions will change nothing without direct help of God: so I read at least.

    Replies: @AP

    “none of us deserve salvation on our own merits.”

    Pretty protestant statement again

    This is said during the liturgy of Saint John Chrysostom, when we explicitly refer to ourselves several times as sinful and unworthy servants and implore God to grant mercy and forgiveness. Is not something similar said during the Catholic Mass?

    It is clear you do not understand the importance of the Letter of St James (see my comment no 133) as a response to St Paul

    I just follow the Church as best I can. Out of curiosity, are you a Protestant, or someone who has left the Church?

    The reverse of that is that the Orthodox allow themselves often to wallow in sins (Russia & Ukraine being known for alcoholism, prostitution and racketeering practices – practices you could say are affirmation of corruption of human nature

    Ukrainians and Russians are generally more sinful than are Poles but this seems to be more the influence of Soviet Communism than of Orthodoxy and Greek Catholicism. Within Ukraine, the places with a shorter history of Communist rule show significantly lower rates of sinful behaviors. Catholic Lithuania does not seem to have much lower rates of sinful behavior than does Western Ukraine.

    • LOL: Mikhail
  304. @Ivashka the fool
    @A123


    If you insist on doing something incredibly stupid
     
    Rest assured, I only do moderately stupid things and have only been moderately successful at doing it.

    🙂



    Given your deep known affection towards the Sorosoid Islamo-fascist SJWs, I would like to share with you one of my life's role models.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nasreddin

    https://ethnoworld.ru/upload/medialibrary/874/874c5c40345142d4ece65e94f4a01aa0.jpg

    When I was a kid I read an excellent novel about his Ferghana adventures. A life changing experience...

    https://www.amazon.ca/Tale-Hodja-Nasreddin-Disturber-Peace/dp/0981269508

    🙂

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    Rest assured, I only do moderately stupid things and have only been moderately successful at doing it.

    Got to love that quotation! Sounds like something that Woody Allen would say.

    As far as your cushy room for undergoing a Spanish inquisition rehabilitation process, I would suggest intense scrutiny of all off Malcom Mclaren video clips, something like what poor Alex had to undergo within a Clockwork Orange. Sorry, but you set yourself up for this. 🙂

  305. If these woke statues are torn down, I sincerely hope they will be put into a museum somewhere, where people can experience them.

    [MORE]

  306. Levi
    @Levi_godman
    Colombian President confirmed that Washington discussed transfer of Russian-made weapons to Kiev.

    Petro stressed that “Russian weapons in Colombia will not be used in this conflict.”

    More sovereign than all of the EU

    [MORE]

  307. Trollstoy
    @Trollstoy88
    Ukraine alone (without Western help) before the conflict had 2.596 tanks.
    Do you really think that 100 or even 200 Leopard tanks will be a deal-breaker to change the tide? 🤭

    [MORE]
    https://twitter.com/

    Trollstoy88/status/1618212576453877762

    • Replies: @songbird
    @Mikhail

    IMO, it is more about political alignment.

    If Germany gives a few Leopards then it is hard for them to reject hosting American-operated training centers for Abrams tanks.

    , @AnonfromTN
    @Mikhail

    Ukrainian win is a fairly tale for the most gullible sheeple. The only purpose of supplying Ukraine with arms is to force the RF to spend as much resources as possible to weaken it. The war is between the US and the RF, Ukraine is a pawn, not a player.

    Replies: @Beckow

  308. @Ivashka the fool
    @LondonBob

    US taking full control and pushing the UK subservient Khokhols towards the exit. The Brits have overplayed their hand in the Intermarium project. All must be equal under the Pentagon's MIC.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @LondonBob

    So the war’s primary purpose is to allow oligarch malfeasance? Once that’s curtailed the Ukranian war effort to defend itself from those nasty orcs will naturally peter out? Zelensky works for the Brits now? LOL!

  309. @Sher Singh
    @Mikel

    Just consider everything sacred & experience divinity rather than trying to believe it.
    Common ritual, sacrality & mores are the basis of community.

    This idea of belief is entirely abrahamic & atheist


    https://twitter.com/EPButler/status/987375413700816896

    Replies: @Mikel

    That is actually an interesting perspective and I don’t fully disagree with it. Last year I had the misfortune of having to attend a funeral in the old country. After the ceremony I was talking to an old friend about some rather contentious religious stuff the priest had said in his homily, taking for granted that we were all devout believers, and he told me that these days civic funerals are becoming a thing around there but they are generally an embarrassment. The speaker doesn’t quite know what to say and tries to substitute religious passages with quotes from writers or philosophers that don’t really reflect the deceased person’s character.

    All things considered, I prefer my relatives to continue having Catholic funerals, as they have during countless generations. The rites are well established, people know the Mass routines, what to do, what to say and when to the grieving relatives, and it all results in a dignified farewell to your loved one.

    But the most moving funeral I have ever attended was a Mormon one, last year too. Apart from a well elaborated Church pomp, all immediate relatives of the deceased, including a 90+ year old person, found the composure to say some words about him from the altar and let us know personal details about him that we didn’t know.

  310. @Mikhail

    Trollstoy
    @Trollstoy88
    Ukraine alone (without Western help) before the conflict had 2.596 tanks.
    Do you really think that 100 or even 200 Leopard tanks will be a deal-breaker to change the tide? 🤭
     
    https://twitter.com/

    Trollstoy88/status/1618212576453877762

    Replies: @songbird, @AnonfromTN

    IMO, it is more about political alignment.

    If Germany gives a few Leopards then it is hard for them to reject hosting American-operated training centers for Abrams tanks.

  311. @Coconuts
    @Mikel


    Compare that to a supernatural being for whom no empirical evidence exists but whose existence, conveniently, would calm our existential fear.
     
    Empirical evidence is evidence from sense experience. There can't be any evidence from sense experience to prove the existence of an omnipotent, omniscient first cause. It's not a question of thinking someday some evidence could in theory be discovered, that there can't be any just follows from empiricist epistemology.

    Replies: @Mikel

    There can’t be any evidence from sense experience to prove the existence of an omnipotent, omniscient first cause.

    There can, if that omnipotent first cause decides to manifest itself to us, as the Christian God used to do from time to time in Biblical times and as some claim continues doing in private (for some strange reason, never in a public and transparent way).

    Absent that direct experience, all one can do is evaluate the odds of such a God having ever really existed or, if one is to settle down on the much more modest claim of a First Cause or Unconditional Reality, try to asses if the arguments in favor of it are logically satisfying. And of course, one can also abandon any reasoned approach to the matter and decide to believe in the god/s of his ancestors because life is just easier that way, both socially and existentially. Nothing wrong with this latter approach, as far as I’m concerned, if one is really able to force such a belief upon himself.

  312. There can, if that omnipotent first cause decides to manifest itself to us, as the Christian God used to do from time to time in Biblical times and as some claim continues doing in private (for some strange reason, never in a public and transparent way).

    That is not empirical evidence of omnipotence, omniscience or God being the first cause. I guess it would be God acting to implant knowledge directly into someone’s mind in a way that they could not doubt. What sense experience (from sight, hearing etc.) would be involved there?

    The next part looks something like the argument that because God hasn’t implanted knowledge of his existence in your mind in a way it is impossible to doubt, it is irrational for anyone to believe God exists.

    Absent that direct experience, all one can do is evaluate the odds of such a God having ever really existed or, if one is to settle down on the much more modest claim of a First Cause or Unconditional Reality…

    I don’t understand what you mean by ‘God’ and ‘modest’ here.

    And of course, one can also abandon any reasoned approach to the matter and decide to believe in the god/s of his ancestors because life is just easier that way, both socially and existentially.

    But what exactly is a reasoned approach? Perhaps this can’t be explained without falling back into rhetoric or relying on arbitrary claims. One person’s idea of what constitutes a ‘reasoned approach’ may not be viewed in the same way by others.

    • Replies: @Mikel
    @Coconuts


    I don’t understand what you mean by ‘God’ and ‘modest’ here.
     
    By God I mean the being described in the Abrahamic and other monotheist religions with a profound connection to us, humans. So profound that He send us prophets and even His own son to redeem us and change our behaviors.

    The claim that the Universe, contrary to what top cosmologists like Hawkings, Sean Carrol or Brian Greene think, cannot be conceived without a first cause or unconditional reality is much more modest. It only deals with the nature of reality but has no particular significance by itself for hominids on planet Earth or any other species anywhere else. Whether the Big Bang was put in motion spontaneously or caused by an unconditioned reality, no salvific intervention follows for a species that appeared much later in a remote corner of the resulting Universe. At least that's how I see the argument that Ivashka linked to. Anyone correct me where I'm wrong.

    Replies: @Ivashka the fool, @Coconuts

  313. @Coconuts

    There can, if that omnipotent first cause decides to manifest itself to us, as the Christian God used to do from time to time in Biblical times and as some claim continues doing in private (for some strange reason, never in a public and transparent way).
     
    That is not empirical evidence of omnipotence, omniscience or God being the first cause. I guess it would be God acting to implant knowledge directly into someone's mind in a way that they could not doubt. What sense experience (from sight, hearing etc.) would be involved there?

    The next part looks something like the argument that because God hasn't implanted knowledge of his existence in your mind in a way it is impossible to doubt, it is irrational for anyone to believe God exists.


    Absent that direct experience, all one can do is evaluate the odds of such a God having ever really existed or, if one is to settle down on the much more modest claim of a First Cause or Unconditional Reality...
     
    I don't understand what you mean by 'God' and 'modest' here.

    And of course, one can also abandon any reasoned approach to the matter and decide to believe in the god/s of his ancestors because life is just easier that way, both socially and existentially.
     
    But what exactly is a reasoned approach? Perhaps this can't be explained without falling back into rhetoric or relying on arbitrary claims. One person's idea of what constitutes a 'reasoned approach' may not be viewed in the same way by others.

    Replies: @Mikel

    I don’t understand what you mean by ‘God’ and ‘modest’ here.

    By God I mean the being described in the Abrahamic and other monotheist religions with a profound connection to us, humans. So profound that He send us prophets and even His own son to redeem us and change our behaviors.

    The claim that the Universe, contrary to what top cosmologists like Hawkings, Sean Carrol or Brian Greene think, cannot be conceived without a first cause or unconditional reality is much more modest. It only deals with the nature of reality but has no particular significance by itself for hominids on planet Earth or any other species anywhere else. Whether the Big Bang was put in motion spontaneously or caused by an unconditioned reality, no salvific intervention follows for a species that appeared much later in a remote corner of the resulting Universe. At least that’s how I see the argument that Ivashka linked to. Anyone correct me where I’m wrong.

    • Replies: @Ivashka the fool
    @Mikel


    By God I mean the being described in the Abrahamic and other monotheist religions with a profound connection to us, humans.
     
    This is an arbitrary limitation. An Atheist is supposed to deny God in any forms, not the God of a specific religious tradition.

    Whether the Big Bang was put in motion spontaneously or caused by an unconditioned reality, no salvific intervention follows for a species that appeared much later in a remote corner of the resulting Universe.
     
    The author of the Ismaili (in fact Islamic and early Classical) logical demonstration of God's existence didn't claim that God intervention preceded the Big Bang. He had insisted that the Absolute Reality that we call "God" transcends conditioned limitations of any type including the temporal and spacial ones.

    Regarding the salvific action of such an Absolute Reality, our entire existence is only possible because this Reality is. It is immanent in our being as much as transcendent through any limitations of past, present and future space.

    If for you sustaining and offering a gift of existence to all that exist is not generous enough, and if you want on top of that some special treatment because you are human, then what you advocate is not Atheism, but Anthropocentric Egotism.

    Our discussion started when you wrote that denying God is a common sense intellectual stance. But your cherry picking of religious traditions to limit what might be named God, and your demands for special salvific intervention towards human beings do not strike me as common sense at all.

    Let's go back to the beginning of our argument.

    Is it plausible that such an Absolute Reality is the ground of being ?

    And if your answer is negative, then why ?

    What would be wrong with the logical demonstration offered by Ismaili Gnostic?

    Any fallacy that you can detect in his reasoning?

    Of course if you are not interested in debating the logic of the argument of this anonymous Ismaili, then you may state that you deny the existence of Absolute Reality/God on personal preferences' basis.

    But then, please refrain from using the simple common sense as justification for your specific and limited brand of "Atheism".

    Replies: @Mikel

    , @Coconuts
    @Mikel


    By God I mean the being described in the Abrahamic and other monotheist religions with a profound connection to us, humans. So profound that He send us prophets and even His own son to redeem us and change our behaviors.
     
    I thought we were talking about the first cause, necessary being etc. not God as he is presented in specific religious traditions or by philosophers like Kant. (I see Bashi has already made this point).

    But, are you interested in politics and issues about patriarchal authority here?


    The claim that the Universe, contrary to what top cosmologists like Hawkings, Sean Carrol or Brian Greene think, cannot be conceived without a first cause or unconditional reality is much more modest.
     
    I also thought the arguments being discussed started from premises about the existence of change, the existence of objects with more than one part, whether the existence of contingent facts and entities has an explanation, not about cosmology as such.

    It only deals with the nature of reality but has no particular significance by itself for hominids on planet Earth or any other species anywhere else.
     
    Say, if causation is generative in the Aristotleian sense the first cause has a lot to do with hominids and everything else. Or if it must be present in virtue of a principle of sufficient reason. These things have nothing to do with spatial location or physical size of entities and things like that.

    At least from my own pov, I don't judge it to be modest to pass off Empiricist Naturalism or Kantian metaphysics (or worse something like Logical Positivism) as if they were just common sense and can't be rationally doubted.

    Whether the Big Bang was put in motion spontaneously or caused by an unconditioned reality, no salvific intervention follows for a species that appeared much later in a remote corner of the resulting Universe.
     

    As I said above I don't think whether God exists is dependent on whether God wants to save humanity or these questions about spatial location.
  314. @RSDB
    @Mr. Hack

    The discussion centered around the following propositions :

    1. A reliable method exists for the quantification of sinfulness.

    [If I was asking on my own part, I would add to this proposition the following sentence: "Even if such a quantifying procedure does not now exist, it would be possible and desirable for a man to quantify the total degree of sinfulness of another man or group of men." But AP believes such a method already exists, so this addition would be unnecessary.]

    and

    2. The poor have been more sinful people[AP's phrasing]/worse people[my phrasing] than the rich for the last two hundred years or so.

    My understanding is that AP views these as sociological rather than religious propositions, which is why I asked him to take them to his priest, because I do not view them as purely sociological questions and I do not think it is safe to do so.

    I have also offered to follow AP's view and take them to a sociologist as sociological questions, although, as I mentioned, I will almost certainly be laughed out of the room.


    His religious views on the subject matter have biblical groundings, as he’s used such sources to support his opinions.
     
    "Religious views" may be overspecifying. In his comments to me, he has been very clear that his views on the subject are his own and not part of the apostolic Catholic or Orthodox traditions.

    But it is precisely a question whether these views have religious ramifications or not.

    Replies: @RSDB, @AP

    1. A reliable method exists for the quantification of sinfulness.

    Are sins associated with certain behaviors? Lust with number of sexual partners, for example? Wrath with assault or murder? Gluttony with obesity and drug abuse?

    If so, then can sins not be measured and thus quantified?

    So person X assaulted five people, abuses alcohol, has stolen, has slept with 10 women, person Y has not assaulted anyone, does not abuse alcohol, does not steal, and is faithful to his wife, therefore person X has committed more measurable sins than has person Y.

    I am not suggesting that all sins can be measured – we can’t measure what people are thinking, sarcasm and rudeness are harder to measure than physical assault, one can’t quanity a cold heart. But just as homicide rate can serve as a rough but valid proxy for crime in general, these identifying and measurable sins can serve as a rough but valid proxy for sinfulness.

    So in this limited and still significant way, it would appear that one can measure sinfulness.

    The poor have been more sinful people[AP’s phrasing]/worse people[my phrasing]

    1. I don’t think it’s phrasing, the meanings are different. Sinful means – having engaged in sin more. Worse is a value judgment. They may be linked – it’s hard to say that a pedophile murderer is not worse than someone who has never done such things. But not quite the same.

    2. If sins can be measured (as it seems is likely – we can measure assaults, sexual partner number, etc.) than it follows that certain groups can be identified as engaging in more or less sin than do other groups. We can compare crime rate, numbers of average sexual partners, etc. to make broad and general conclusions about different groups of people regarding sinfulness. As with other measures such as IQ, such averages do not determine what is true of a given individual from each group.

    I do not think it is safe to do so.

    Could you please elaborate on why to you, it does not seem safe to do so? That is, why might it be unsafe to quantify observable sinful behaviors to see patterns among groups, as long as one is careful not to judge individuals based on the group averages?

    In his comments to me, he has been very clear that his views on the subject are his own and not part of the apostolic Catholic or Orthodox traditions.

    On this particular topic and methodology, the Church has nothing to say AFAIK. But in general my views on topics of religious discussion are as far as I know have been supported by sources I have provided, in line with standard Orthodox and Catholic traditions.

    • Replies: @RSDB
    @AP


    The Church has nothing to say AFAIK
     
    Do not presume this. Please bring these propositions to your priest. He is your shepherd, and I am not. Again, you do not have to tell us about it. You don't have to take his advice but please get it. It will take less time than you have spent on it on here. He might tell you it's none of his business. What will you have lost?

    I will say again, at the risk once again of overstepping the bounds of politeness, you may be in grave peril. I am not just saying this for some rhetorical effect.

    This board is a place for light entertainment and idle gossip. You would not make a medical diagnosis on here, for obvious reasons. This is far more serious.

    Then we can all have fun arguing again.
    , @RSDB
    @AP


    why to you, it does not seem safe to do so?
     
    Fair enough.

    The danger lies in the frivolity of the exercise. When you confess your sins each week or whenever as much as possible by kind and number, you could just as easily draw up a running chart showing your change in total sinfulness from week to week or year to year (do you do this?); most people including me would consider that absurd, but it might at least have a laudable object and you have a right to be interested in the state of your own soul.

    I never heard of any recommendation for the examination of conscience that involved giving oneself a total sinfulness score on a scale of 1 to 100 but one might be out there, although I doubt it.

    When you do the same with other people for the amusement of comparison or to make some point online, you are concerning yourself with something that is none of your concern, and doing it for an entirely frivolous object. That you are doing it with an extremely leaky method, to say the least, is almost an afterthought, but it doesn't help.

    Do not keep arguing on here about this. Take these propositions to your priest. As I said, if you do that, if you like I will take these propositions to a sociologist as sociological questions, although they are not questions any sociologist would take seriously.

    Replies: @AP

    , @Barbarossa
    @AP

    I'm going to give this one more shot to get at the heart of the matter. Some of the points that I'd like to make in regards to the poor and sinfulness can perhaps be best communicated via a personal anecdote.

    A couple years ago, on my way to a jobsite I kept driving past a homeless guy who was set up on the side of the road pan-handling. I brought him some food one day and had a bit of a conversation with him. He seemed like a harmless enough guy, probably mid-60's with a pretty fit and wiry build. A couple days later I decided to stop again and this time I offered him some work and a space to stay at my shop. He agreed and loaded his stuff into my big van for the ride back to my workshop. I set him up in my office with a futon, use of the microwave etc. and the plan for him to work on painting some of my barn the next day.

    The next day came and he procrastinated on really doing any work. Instead, he set up his chair outside the shop and worked on a seemingly endless supply of Keystone Light. He affable enough though ill at ease and finally asked to go back to where I picked him up from. So the next day as I made my way to the job-site I dropped him off supplied with a few basics and my phone number if he changed his mind.

    While driving with him he talked some about his past and he just seemed like a man who had been broken by the world. Unsuccessful in marriage, alcoholic, and unskilled in any particular trade, he found himself gradually falling a little further until he had nothing and no one left, settling for the easy solutions of mobility and cheap beer.

    A couple things stuck in my mind about the whole encounter, which hold true for most other interactions I've had with homeless people. One was his evident discomfort with being treated as a man, and not just an object of charity. He had an almost animal undercurrent of distrust or apprehension. In trying to treat him with some dignity it seemed like it was too uncomfortable for him.

    I really believe that a part of him truly wanted to take me up on my offer and that when he got into my van he really intended to do that work. However, when the time came to take that action it seemed like he was paralyzed by fear. Part of him could envision a different path, but he found himself unable or unwilling to push past that fear and give it a go. In the end it was too much of a difficult prospect and he could only revert to what he knew and was comfortable with.

    Was the man socially dysfunctional and self destructive? Undeniably yes. I have an extremely hard time saying that he was really a sinful man though. Sin's seriousness is largely contingent upon intent and awareness. In John 9:40-41 Jesus spells this out.


    Some of the Pharisees who were with Him heard this, and they asked Him, “Are we blind too?” “If you were blind,” Jesus replied, “you would not be guilty of sin. But since you claim you can see, your guilt remains.”
     
    That homeless man seemed to me one who was blind. I truly think he was really doing the best that he could, given what he could muster within himself, but that life and whatever his circumstances had been had beaten him down so far that the prospect of change or taking me up on my offer was cripplingly petrifying. So, I take issue with judging that man or others like him of some empirical measure of sinfulness. We just don't know that, we are not God, and we are explicitly instructed against this type of yardstick measurement. In the end I felt as though that man was worthy of my sympathy and my aid, but that I couldn't find in myself to judge him. I just felt rather sad for him.

    So, I think if you want to make a discussion the social utility (or lack of) of homeless populations, the differences in IQ correlated to lack of self-control in homeless populations, or any number of similar angles then I think you can use the logical framework that you have adopted. As soon as you bring sin and associated ideas of relative spiritual worthiness into the equation then I react strongly to it as I see your empirical approach as being not only unapplicable, but also as RSDB says, spiritually dangerous.

    I would be more likely to see as morally culpable the people at the top who have systematically dismantled our moral and ethical frameworks which provided certain behavioral and social guardrails which may have helped someone like that maintain a healthier path in life.

    Replies: @Barbarossa, @AP, @HeavilyMarbledSteak

  315. @Ivashka the fool
    @AP


    collection of atheists, apostates, and heathens
     
    Guilty as charged.

    Even though I did not expect such Spanish Inquisition...

    https://live.staticflickr.com/3779/10780220965_489a1c355d_b.jpg

    Bring in the cushy pillows!

    🙂

    Now seriously, I think the debate between you AB and Dima is not theological, but social and psychological. You defend "conservative values", and sometimes use religious justifications to uphold these. They being younger and somewhat "Romantic" (to use Dima's vocabulary), defend more "progressive social norms" and also use Scripture to justify their take on these.

    Your whole debate is nothing new, people have often used religious justification to bolster their opinions on the way society should be organized. All this is typical human egotism and has nothing to do with God. As long as we all avoid St Barthelemy's nights and Holy Crusades, we will all stay good friends.

    One last thing, I (the apostate / heathen / whatever) do not doubt a minute that you do your best to be a good Christian. Just like I do my best to be a good "apostate / heathen / whatever"...

    🙂

    Replies: @songbird, @AP, @Dmitry

    As long as we all avoid St Barthelemy’s nights and Holy Crusades, we will all stay good friends.

    The Crusader Song in Ukrainian is nice though (h/t LatW):

    • Replies: @Ivashka the fool
    @AP

    It is true that Ukrainian is a melodic language exquisitely suited for songs and chanting.

    Replies: @AnonfromTN

    , @Ivashka the fool
    @AP

    Have you ever heard of Timur Mutsuraev ?

    Here's a cover of one of his songs by a talented young Russian lady;

    https://youtu.be/3OTLpSKtdmI



    If you liked it, then perhaps you might give a try to his early songs, which he composed with one of his friends during the first Chechnya War.

    There are two songs that might be today's Islamist answer to the Pälastinalied: Иерусалим & 12000 муджахедов.

    I have read that these songs are often played on both sides of the frontline in Ukraine by people of different ethnic and religious backgrounds.

    Warrior ethos etc...

  316. @AnonfromTN
    @Thulean Friend

    This difference in strategy simply reflects the fact that the RF is a sovereign country that wants to spare the lives of its soldiers. In contrast, Ukraine is ruled by the empire, which considers aborigines disposable. Sending arms to Ukraine is not about its win, which is not achievable under any circumstances, but about forcing the RF to spend as much resources as possible to weaken it. The war is between the US and the RF, Ukraine is just a pawn in this game.

    Replies: @Wokechoke

    Penetrating analysis there. I don’t think it’s been noticed. Empires like Rome did use legitimate client Kings before they Borged the next generation of indigenous into compliance.

  317. @Mikel
    @Coconuts


    I don’t understand what you mean by ‘God’ and ‘modest’ here.
     
    By God I mean the being described in the Abrahamic and other monotheist religions with a profound connection to us, humans. So profound that He send us prophets and even His own son to redeem us and change our behaviors.

    The claim that the Universe, contrary to what top cosmologists like Hawkings, Sean Carrol or Brian Greene think, cannot be conceived without a first cause or unconditional reality is much more modest. It only deals with the nature of reality but has no particular significance by itself for hominids on planet Earth or any other species anywhere else. Whether the Big Bang was put in motion spontaneously or caused by an unconditioned reality, no salvific intervention follows for a species that appeared much later in a remote corner of the resulting Universe. At least that's how I see the argument that Ivashka linked to. Anyone correct me where I'm wrong.

    Replies: @Ivashka the fool, @Coconuts

    By God I mean the being described in the Abrahamic and other monotheist religions with a profound connection to us, humans.

    This is an arbitrary limitation. An Atheist is supposed to deny God in any forms, not the God of a specific religious tradition.

    Whether the Big Bang was put in motion spontaneously or caused by an unconditioned reality, no salvific intervention follows for a species that appeared much later in a remote corner of the resulting Universe.

    The author of the Ismaili (in fact Islamic and early Classical) logical demonstration of God’s existence didn’t claim that God intervention preceded the Big Bang. He had insisted that the Absolute Reality that we call “God” transcends conditioned limitations of any type including the temporal and spacial ones.

    Regarding the salvific action of such an Absolute Reality, our entire existence is only possible because this Reality is. It is immanent in our being as much as transcendent through any limitations of past, present and future space.

    If for you sustaining and offering a gift of existence to all that exist is not generous enough, and if you want on top of that some special treatment because you are human, then what you advocate is not Atheism, but Anthropocentric Egotism.

    Our discussion started when you wrote that denying God is a common sense intellectual stance. But your cherry picking of religious traditions to limit what might be named God, and your demands for special salvific intervention towards human beings do not strike me as common sense at all.

    Let’s go back to the beginning of our argument.

    Is it plausible that such an Absolute Reality is the ground of being ?

    And if your answer is negative, then why ?

    What would be wrong with the logical demonstration offered by Ismaili Gnostic?

    Any fallacy that you can detect in his reasoning?

    Of course if you are not interested in debating the logic of the argument of this anonymous Ismaili, then you may state that you deny the existence of Absolute Reality/God on personal preferences’ basis.

    But then, please refrain from using the simple common sense as justification for your specific and limited brand of “Atheism”.

    • Replies: @Mikel
    @Ivashka the fool


    An Atheist is supposed to deny God in any forms
     
    Who cares? I don't think I have ever categorically denied anything related to God. Just expressed my disbelief. Contrary to what you said, I don't belong to any belief system or community that I need to defend. You (or A123, always arguing about the correct terminology on this matter, or AP, always appalled at people reneging the authority of the Church) can call me whatever you please. It doesn't change anything. But, according to Wikipedia, perhaps my current position should be categorized as agnostic atheist: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnostic_atheism


    your demands for special salvific intervention towards human beings do not strike me as common sense at all.
     
    You have this totally backwards. You should take that up with the people in this blog who do believe in a salvific deity. I have just pointed out that the Ismaili/Aquinas God and the God they believe in are totally different concepts and have just explained why in my reply to Coconuts.

    What would be wrong with the logical demonstration offered by Ismaili Gnostic?

     

    I wrote a rather lengthy reply to this question with various points. And I did it at your request. You never addressed any of those points so we're going circular here, aren't we?

    Replies: @Ivashka the fool, @HeavilyMarbledSteak, @Coconuts

  318. @AP
    @Thulean Friend


    The Beeb has tried to calculate Russian KIA using verified open source methods and then inflated this number by 60% to get to a rough estimate. They get about 20K total KIA
     
    Our former host estimates 45k Russian killed.

    This is supported by a piece of evidence, the statue in Saratov which listed the war dead back in December, before the bloody Bakhmut/Soledar battles. Extrapolated to all of Russia, the number was around low 30,000s back then IIRC. It did not include MIA so was an underestimate. So 45k currently makes sense. That 45k would not include Donbas forces KIA.

    Meanwhile, Ursula von der Leyen admitted 100K UA KIA a few weeks ago in a slip-up
     
    The slip up was that she meant total casualties. It seems low to me.



    https://twitter.com/powerfultakes/status/1617634953076039680?s=46&t=j_JQF-V-PHLTMgtzU5DuCg

    Replies: @Wokechoke

    Russia would be negotiating over Sevastopol if they’d lost 180,000 in one year.

    • Replies: @AP
    @Wokechoke

    That includes injured. 45,000 killed.

    Replies: @Wokechoke

  319. @Wokechoke
    @AP

    Russia would be negotiating over Sevastopol if they’d lost 180,000 in one year.

    Replies: @AP

    That includes injured. 45,000 killed.

    • Replies: @Wokechoke
    @AP

    No. They couldn't deal with Somme like casualties. They can't afford to lose more than 250,000 men to keep Crimea. In all fairness to Russia, USSR etc I don't believe they really lost 10s of millions in ww2 to the Germans either. Puffed up egotists had to claim they bled 50,000,000 to beat the Germans.

  320. @AP
    @Ivashka the fool


    As long as we all avoid St Barthelemy’s nights and Holy Crusades, we will all stay good friends.
     
    The Crusader Song in Ukrainian is nice though (h/t LatW):

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=skem-8pHCYw&t=61s

    Replies: @Ivashka the fool, @Ivashka the fool

    It is true that Ukrainian is a melodic language exquisitely suited for songs and chanting.

    • Replies: @AnonfromTN
    @Ivashka the fool

    Ukrainian is arguably the most melodic Slavic language. That’s why Ukrainian songs were so popular in the USSR. Shame on the scum who made it associate with their parochial quasi Nazism, defaming a beautiful language.

  321. @Ivashka the fool
    @Mikel


    By God I mean the being described in the Abrahamic and other monotheist religions with a profound connection to us, humans.
     
    This is an arbitrary limitation. An Atheist is supposed to deny God in any forms, not the God of a specific religious tradition.

    Whether the Big Bang was put in motion spontaneously or caused by an unconditioned reality, no salvific intervention follows for a species that appeared much later in a remote corner of the resulting Universe.
     
    The author of the Ismaili (in fact Islamic and early Classical) logical demonstration of God's existence didn't claim that God intervention preceded the Big Bang. He had insisted that the Absolute Reality that we call "God" transcends conditioned limitations of any type including the temporal and spacial ones.

    Regarding the salvific action of such an Absolute Reality, our entire existence is only possible because this Reality is. It is immanent in our being as much as transcendent through any limitations of past, present and future space.

    If for you sustaining and offering a gift of existence to all that exist is not generous enough, and if you want on top of that some special treatment because you are human, then what you advocate is not Atheism, but Anthropocentric Egotism.

    Our discussion started when you wrote that denying God is a common sense intellectual stance. But your cherry picking of religious traditions to limit what might be named God, and your demands for special salvific intervention towards human beings do not strike me as common sense at all.

    Let's go back to the beginning of our argument.

    Is it plausible that such an Absolute Reality is the ground of being ?

    And if your answer is negative, then why ?

    What would be wrong with the logical demonstration offered by Ismaili Gnostic?

    Any fallacy that you can detect in his reasoning?

    Of course if you are not interested in debating the logic of the argument of this anonymous Ismaili, then you may state that you deny the existence of Absolute Reality/God on personal preferences' basis.

    But then, please refrain from using the simple common sense as justification for your specific and limited brand of "Atheism".

    Replies: @Mikel

    An Atheist is supposed to deny God in any forms

    Who cares? I don’t think I have ever categorically denied anything related to God. Just expressed my disbelief. Contrary to what you said, I don’t belong to any belief system or community that I need to defend. You (or A123, always arguing about the correct terminology on this matter, or AP, always appalled at people reneging the authority of the Church) can call me whatever you please. It doesn’t change anything. But, according to Wikipedia, perhaps my current position should be categorized as agnostic atheist: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnostic_atheism

    your demands for special salvific intervention towards human beings do not strike me as common sense at all.

    You have this totally backwards. You should take that up with the people in this blog who do believe in a salvific deity. I have just pointed out that the Ismaili/Aquinas God and the God they believe in are totally different concepts and have just explained why in my reply to Coconuts.

    What would be wrong with the logical demonstration offered by Ismaili Gnostic?

    I wrote a rather lengthy reply to this question with various points. And I did it at your request. You never addressed any of those points so we’re going circular here, aren’t we?

    • Replies: @Ivashka the fool
    @Mikel

    You are right, I should have commented upon the different points you raise in your reply. Instead I juste answered by unslderscoring that whatever we might say about this topic would only be of limited value and inadequate veracity.

    Our words are not adequate to discuss anything that transcends our conditioned reality. This is why most respected mystics in all spiritual traditions used the Via negativa / apophatic theology.

    It is in the silent depths on one's mind/heart that one can find an answer to these questions, if one is inclined towards these contemplations.

    I am not of the preachy type, and I don't usually discuss these things because discussing them is pointless. Everyone must follow one's own path and we cannot walk the path of someone else.

    There is an old Sufi saying that goes like "There are no more than two steps to the door of the Friend. You are stopping with the first step."

    Therefore I wish you well on your journey.

    Replies: @Sher Singh

    , @HeavilyMarbledSteak
    @Mikel

    Just a very quick note -

    God defined as the Ground of All Being can have a connection to salvation and human concerns in general, if salvation is correctly understood.

    Such a God is "all in all" - that means, that literally everything that exists is either God or God in the mode of other than God becoming God. That means us humans are God in the mode of becoming God.

    That has implications for how we understand our true natures and the true ends of human life.

    In this scheme, our true end is to realize our union with God, which would be salvation. It is in a way an ontological quest that realizes the essence of our being.

    In theologies that understand God this way (most classic ones), it's believed that man has a "natural" desire to realize union with God, because only that fulfills his true nature.

    I know you don't see it this way, but I think the feeling you get from nature is you encountering God, and it's among the most satisfying feelings of your life, I understand.

    Anyways this is just the briefest of sketches, and you and Bashi seem to have laid you're conversation to rest on amicable terms.

    For my part, as long as you continue your forays into the wilderness and climb mountains, you're worshipping God better than most of us here :)

    Replies: @Ivashka the fool, @HeavilyMarbledSteak, @Mikel

    , @Coconuts
    @Mikel


    Contrary to what you said, I don’t belong to any belief system or community that I need to defend.
     
    Iirc Aristotle is supposed to have said something like 'the man who is part of no community would be no man and would either be a beast or a god'. I think all communities form for some end or purpose, in pursuit of some idea of the good.

    This may be why lately this idea is looking increasingly probable again:

    Politics is just the religion people actually believe in.
  322. @AP
    @Wokechoke

    That includes injured. 45,000 killed.

    Replies: @Wokechoke

    No. They couldn’t deal with Somme like casualties. They can’t afford to lose more than 250,000 men to keep Crimea. In all fairness to Russia, USSR etc I don’t believe they really lost 10s of millions in ww2 to the Germans either. Puffed up egotists had to claim they bled 50,000,000 to beat the Germans.

  323. I keep thinking about the armor in Excalibur.

    [MORE]

    Boorman choose it, so he could play the light off of it. The knights, when they are most idealized, have it shining off of them heavily. Some say that there is even a Christian theme in it, that they become dirtier when they are more sinful, and then have a spiritual rebirth, where they are shining again, riding through the apple blossoms.

    I wonder if it was directly the reason that a lot of people were turned off by the armor – the faux glitz of the light.

    But here is what I keep thinking about it – whether one thinks it a good device or a bad one – it is an easy analogy for how certain groups are idealized in Hollywood. It is like they are wearing cumbersome armor that is artificially glowing all the time, without the period of mud. And some of the same people who would be turned off by the armor in the movie, completely go for it, and demand more of this infinite false chivalry.

    Silvio: BTW, if you reading this, I just thought of a solution to the plot hole you mentioned: Excalibur willed itself to go into the stone. Probably willed the ambush, and then its own escape. Makes sense as Uther basically drops dead a little while after he lets go of it.

    • Replies: @A123
    @songbird


    Excalibur willed itself to go into the stone. Probably willed the ambush, and then its own escape. Makes sense as Uther basically drops dead a little while after he lets go of it.
     
    Uther did not die. He was taken to Avalon where he was healed. He then turned up hundreds of years later on Babylon 5.

    PEACE 😇

    https://youtu.be/IMS_8OU-RZ0

    Replies: @songbird

  324. @Mikel
    @Ivashka the fool


    An Atheist is supposed to deny God in any forms
     
    Who cares? I don't think I have ever categorically denied anything related to God. Just expressed my disbelief. Contrary to what you said, I don't belong to any belief system or community that I need to defend. You (or A123, always arguing about the correct terminology on this matter, or AP, always appalled at people reneging the authority of the Church) can call me whatever you please. It doesn't change anything. But, according to Wikipedia, perhaps my current position should be categorized as agnostic atheist: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnostic_atheism


    your demands for special salvific intervention towards human beings do not strike me as common sense at all.
     
    You have this totally backwards. You should take that up with the people in this blog who do believe in a salvific deity. I have just pointed out that the Ismaili/Aquinas God and the God they believe in are totally different concepts and have just explained why in my reply to Coconuts.

    What would be wrong with the logical demonstration offered by Ismaili Gnostic?

     

    I wrote a rather lengthy reply to this question with various points. And I did it at your request. You never addressed any of those points so we're going circular here, aren't we?

    Replies: @Ivashka the fool, @HeavilyMarbledSteak, @Coconuts

    You are right, I should have commented upon the different points you raise in your reply. Instead I juste answered by unslderscoring that whatever we might say about this topic would only be of limited value and inadequate veracity.

    Our words are not adequate to discuss anything that transcends our conditioned reality. This is why most respected mystics in all spiritual traditions used the Via negativa / apophatic theology.

    It is in the silent depths on one’s mind/heart that one can find an answer to these questions, if one is inclined towards these contemplations.

    I am not of the preachy type, and I don’t usually discuss these things because discussing them is pointless. Everyone must follow one’s own path and we cannot walk the path of someone else.

    There is an old Sufi saying that goes like “There are no more than two steps to the door of the Friend. You are stopping with the first step.”

    Therefore I wish you well on your journey.

    • Thanks: Mikel
    • Replies: @Sher Singh
    @Ivashka the fool


    This is an arbitrary limitation. An Atheist is supposed to deny God in any forms, not the God of a specific religious tradition.
     
    The Romans called christians atheists - come to agree.
    They don't believe in one God, but merely deny the millions others.

    Once you understand religion as an inherent part of Man rather than belief,
    this just makes sense.

  325. @songbird
    I keep thinking about the armor in Excalibur.

    Boorman choose it, so he could play the light off of it. The knights, when they are most idealized, have it shining off of them heavily. Some say that there is even a Christian theme in it, that they become dirtier when they are more sinful, and then have a spiritual rebirth, where they are shining again, riding through the apple blossoms.

    I wonder if it was directly the reason that a lot of people were turned off by the armor - the faux glitz of the light.

    But here is what I keep thinking about it - whether one thinks it a good device or a bad one - it is an easy analogy for how certain groups are idealized in Hollywood. It is like they are wearing cumbersome armor that is artificially glowing all the time, without the period of mud. And some of the same people who would be turned off by the armor in the movie, completely go for it, and demand more of this infinite false chivalry.

    Silvio: BTW, if you reading this, I just thought of a solution to the plot hole you mentioned: Excalibur willed itself to go into the stone. Probably willed the ambush, and then its own escape. Makes sense as Uther basically drops dead a little while after he lets go of it.

    Replies: @A123

    Excalibur willed itself to go into the stone. Probably willed the ambush, and then its own escape. Makes sense as Uther basically drops dead a little while after he lets go of it.

    Uther did not die. He was taken to Avalon where he was healed. He then turned up hundreds of years later on Babylon 5.

    PEACE 😇

    • LOL: songbird
    • Replies: @songbird
    @A123

    It's kind of blackpilling to think that you could have O'Neill cylinders and jumpgates and an area like Downbelow inhabited by the dregs of society.

    What a bleak vision of the future!

    Replies: @A123

  326. Putting the Boot in…

    Scott Ritter interviews Victor Bout. lol.

    Do fast talking Russians hide behind so-so English skills? Quite interesting to see Bout on a Skype call.

    • Replies: @Ivashka the fool
    @Wokechoke


    Do fast talking Russians hide behind so-so English skills?
     
    Yes we do.

    🙂

    Replies: @AnonfromTN

  327. @Wokechoke
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLOzzuByYzc&t=345s


    Putting the Boot in...

    Scott Ritter interviews Victor Bout. lol.

    Do fast talking Russians hide behind so-so English skills? Quite interesting to see Bout on a Skype call.

    Replies: @Ivashka the fool

    Do fast talking Russians hide behind so-so English skills?

    Yes we do.

    🙂

    • Replies: @AnonfromTN
    @Ivashka the fool

    There is nothing specifically Russian about it. The lab where I was a post-doc many years ago had a Chinese graduate student who, when she could not answer the question, used what we called “quick mumble “.

  328. Sher Singh says:
    @Ivashka the fool
    @Mikel

    You are right, I should have commented upon the different points you raise in your reply. Instead I juste answered by unslderscoring that whatever we might say about this topic would only be of limited value and inadequate veracity.

    Our words are not adequate to discuss anything that transcends our conditioned reality. This is why most respected mystics in all spiritual traditions used the Via negativa / apophatic theology.

    It is in the silent depths on one's mind/heart that one can find an answer to these questions, if one is inclined towards these contemplations.

    I am not of the preachy type, and I don't usually discuss these things because discussing them is pointless. Everyone must follow one's own path and we cannot walk the path of someone else.

    There is an old Sufi saying that goes like "There are no more than two steps to the door of the Friend. You are stopping with the first step."

    Therefore I wish you well on your journey.

    Replies: @Sher Singh

    This is an arbitrary limitation. An Atheist is supposed to deny God in any forms, not the God of a specific religious tradition.

    The Romans called christians atheists – come to agree.
    They don’t believe in one God, but merely deny the millions others.

    Once you understand religion as an inherent part of Man rather than belief,
    this just makes sense.

  329. @AP
    @Barbarossa

    This post stated that more affluent young people used drugs and alcohol more often and therefore claimed that they were at greater risk od addiction. But actual rates of binge drinking and abuse are lower, as highlighted in this more recent study:

    https://sunrisehouse.com/addiction-demographics/socioeconomic-groups/



    “About 80% of upper-income survey respondents reported drinking alcohol, compared with approximately 50% of lower-income respondents.”

    “Among American adolescents, heavy alcohol use is more widespread in individuals whose families have higher levels of income and education. Teens whose parents had a higher education and a higher household income were more likely to engage in heavy drinking episodes than young people from lower-income homes whose parents were less educated.6”

    “However, individuals with a history of belonging to a lower-income socioeconomic group were more likely to engage in heavy drinking or binge drinking (the consumption of five or more drinks in one sitting), while individuals in higher-income groups were more likely to engage in light or social drinking. Individuals from a working-class background were more likely to indulge in heavy drinking; however, they were also more likely to be completely abstinent from alcohol than the white-collar Americans who were studied.”

    “ Misuse of illegal opioids (such as heroin) or prescription opioids may be highest among the poor and continues to affect people in Appalachia and those living in poverty at disproportionate rates”

    “ Middle-aged white Americans who have less education, experience poverty, and increased stress due to their financial situation have increased mortality related to substance use.9

    Other communities and demographics, including Black Americans, that experience high poverty and a lack of local economic investment also experience opioid use at increased levels, as well as polysubstance use”

    ::::::::;;

    The overall picture is that the affluent may drink more often but do so in more moderation at each sitting.

    Replies: @Barbarossa

    I’d like to make clear that I actually have no wish to try to make the point that the rich abuse substances at higher rates than poor people. I wouldn’t be surprised that poorer people do abuse substances at higher rates than richer people. The exact breakdown is immaterial to my point which is that you were citing tendentious statistics to paint an unnecessarily binary picture of poor sinful people abusing substances in contrast to the orderly example of their more virtuous betters. In reality substance abuse is a massive problem across socioeconomic lines, though because of it’s association with despair I don’t find it unusual that it would be highest represented in the most desperate populations.

    I’d still be interested in hearing what your response would be to my other points.

    On a slight tangent, I don’t think that your thoughts about the aristocracy translate to today’s class dynamic. The aristocracy, at least in the ideal which was sometimes realized and sometimes not, operated under a societal sense of mutual responsibility and obligation. This is not really the case today. Their are still vestiges of it in that we laud the rich who give to charity, but that is far different from a specific and concrete responsibility to care for those directly under the old order aristocrat. Also, we don’t socially penalize the rich who don’t practice charity. It’s seen not as a responsibility in a deep sense just a nice option.

    • Replies: @Sher Singh
    @Barbarossa

    He could just make the point that IQ is correleated to self-control & be done with it.
    Agree with the rest - as far as my own material aspirations vs religious zeal.
    I'm just a blade of grass, but I don't think a materialist would oppose liberalism.
    Never read Nietzsche nor intend to though.

    There's nothing wrong with material prosperity, but it's empty in and of itself.
    A King still needs wealth, knowledge, and labour (service or sewa).
    All these are performed in addition to, Kingship in battle which is paramount.




    https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/640459736919048202/1067815370305568788/IMG_1249.png

    https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/852644788175110157/1007316704990347455/chautangatilak.mp4

    ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫਤਹਿ

    , @RSDB
    @Barbarossa

    Perhaps I made a mistake in suspending argument, but I think it's better to err in that direction than in the direction of frivolity. Too many words ...

    It's strange, I was planning a response around the usual lines, and then somehow I ended up saying something completely different.

  330. https://roloslavskiy.substack.com/p/wagners-rising-star

    https://roloslavskiy.substack.com/p/the-first-principle-of-strength

    His principle of strength stuff is still cucked since it doesn’t address male dominance over women.

    Only abstractions like ‘the nation’

    https://bioleninism.wordpress.com/2017/08/03/feminist-nationalism/

  331. @A123
    @songbird


    Excalibur willed itself to go into the stone. Probably willed the ambush, and then its own escape. Makes sense as Uther basically drops dead a little while after he lets go of it.
     
    Uther did not die. He was taken to Avalon where he was healed. He then turned up hundreds of years later on Babylon 5.

    PEACE 😇

    https://youtu.be/IMS_8OU-RZ0

    Replies: @songbird

    It’s kind of blackpilling to think that you could have O’Neill cylinders and jumpgates and an area like Downbelow inhabited by the dregs of society.

    What a bleak vision of the future!

    • Replies: @A123
    @songbird


    It’s kind of blackpilling to think that you could have O’Neill cylinders and jumpgates and an area like Downbelow inhabited by the dregs of society.

    What a bleak vision of the future!
     
    Any collection of people = people. Add technology:

    ⦾ Stone age... Still people
    ⦾ Iron age... Still people
    ⦾ Space age... Still people
    ⦾ "Trek Tech" like replicators... How many people would key up recreational chemicals?

    Technology does not make people better.
    ___

    I find the entire poor/rich sinners conversation baffling.

    • Rich sinners create damage on an epic scale, such as Harvey Weinstein & Bernie Madoff.
    • Many of the poorest, homeless sinners could be helped by reopening mental health facilities.
    • Making workers poorer has been incredibly destructive.

    Remember when a family with one working parent was the norm? And, that breadwinner could support spouse and children? It is much easier for a child to fall into sin when there is not a parent looking after them.

    Industrial, trade, and migration policies that restore the value of work & traditional family structure would do much to fix society's problems.
    ___

    As a side note. Every public High School should be required to have a rifle range and mandatory firearms class. Sher Singh would likely approve. Probably Barbarossa too. Weapons are fundamentally tools. Everyone should understand and respect them.

    PEACE 😇

    Replies: @Ivashka the fool, @songbird

  332. Sher Singh says:
    @Barbarossa
    @AP

    I'd like to make clear that I actually have no wish to try to make the point that the rich abuse substances at higher rates than poor people. I wouldn't be surprised that poorer people do abuse substances at higher rates than richer people. The exact breakdown is immaterial to my point which is that you were citing tendentious statistics to paint an unnecessarily binary picture of poor sinful people abusing substances in contrast to the orderly example of their more virtuous betters. In reality substance abuse is a massive problem across socioeconomic lines, though because of it's association with despair I don't find it unusual that it would be highest represented in the most desperate populations.

    I'd still be interested in hearing what your response would be to my other points.

    On a slight tangent, I don't think that your thoughts about the aristocracy translate to today's class dynamic. The aristocracy, at least in the ideal which was sometimes realized and sometimes not, operated under a societal sense of mutual responsibility and obligation. This is not really the case today. Their are still vestiges of it in that we laud the rich who give to charity, but that is far different from a specific and concrete responsibility to care for those directly under the old order aristocrat. Also, we don't socially penalize the rich who don't practice charity. It's seen not as a responsibility in a deep sense just a nice option.

    Replies: @Sher Singh, @RSDB

    He could just make the point that IQ is correleated to self-control & be done with it.
    Agree with the rest – as far as my own material aspirations vs religious zeal.
    I’m just a blade of grass, but I don’t think a materialist would oppose liberalism.
    Never read Nietzsche nor intend to though.

    There’s nothing wrong with material prosperity, but it’s empty in and of itself.
    A King still needs wealth, knowledge, and labour (service or sewa).
    All these are performed in addition to, Kingship in battle which is paramount.

    [MORE]

    ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫਤਹਿ

  333. @AP
    @Ivashka the fool


    As long as we all avoid St Barthelemy’s nights and Holy Crusades, we will all stay good friends.
     
    The Crusader Song in Ukrainian is nice though (h/t LatW):

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=skem-8pHCYw&t=61s

    Replies: @Ivashka the fool, @Ivashka the fool

    Have you ever heard of Timur Mutsuraev ?

    Here’s a cover of one of his songs by a talented young Russian lady;

    [MORE]

    If you liked it, then perhaps you might give a try to his early songs, which he composed with one of his friends during the first Chechnya War.

    There are two songs that might be today’s Islamist answer to the Pälastinalied: Иерусалим & 12000 муджахедов.

    I have read that these songs are often played on both sides of the frontline in Ukraine by people of different ethnic and religious backgrounds.

    Warrior ethos etc…

  334. @Mikel
    @Ivashka the fool


    An Atheist is supposed to deny God in any forms
     
    Who cares? I don't think I have ever categorically denied anything related to God. Just expressed my disbelief. Contrary to what you said, I don't belong to any belief system or community that I need to defend. You (or A123, always arguing about the correct terminology on this matter, or AP, always appalled at people reneging the authority of the Church) can call me whatever you please. It doesn't change anything. But, according to Wikipedia, perhaps my current position should be categorized as agnostic atheist: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnostic_atheism


    your demands for special salvific intervention towards human beings do not strike me as common sense at all.
     
    You have this totally backwards. You should take that up with the people in this blog who do believe in a salvific deity. I have just pointed out that the Ismaili/Aquinas God and the God they believe in are totally different concepts and have just explained why in my reply to Coconuts.

    What would be wrong with the logical demonstration offered by Ismaili Gnostic?

     

    I wrote a rather lengthy reply to this question with various points. And I did it at your request. You never addressed any of those points so we're going circular here, aren't we?

    Replies: @Ivashka the fool, @HeavilyMarbledSteak, @Coconuts

    Just a very quick note –

    God defined as the Ground of All Being can have a connection to salvation and human concerns in general, if salvation is correctly understood.

    Such a God is “all in all” – that means, that literally everything that exists is either God or God in the mode of other than God becoming God. That means us humans are God in the mode of becoming God.

    That has implications for how we understand our true natures and the true ends of human life.

    In this scheme, our true end is to realize our union with God, which would be salvation. It is in a way an ontological quest that realizes the essence of our being.

    In theologies that understand God this way (most classic ones), it’s believed that man has a “natural” desire to realize union with God, because only that fulfills his true nature.

    I know you don’t see it this way, but I think the feeling you get from nature is you encountering God, and it’s among the most satisfying feelings of your life, I understand.

    Anyways this is just the briefest of sketches, and you and Bashi seem to have laid you’re conversation to rest on amicable terms.

    For my part, as long as you continue your forays into the wilderness and climb mountains, you’re worshipping God better than most of us here 🙂

    • Agree: Ivashka the fool
    • Replies: @Ivashka the fool
    @HeavilyMarbledSteak

    Do you also digest others' food for them instead of just inviting them to eat ?

    Let people first decide whether they are starving before force-feeding them.

    🙂

    Replies: @HeavilyMarbledSteak

    , @HeavilyMarbledSteak
    @HeavilyMarbledSteak

    These conversations are bedeviled by people arguing from different and mutually incompatible modes - modern people tend to always argue from the scientific mode, which deals with events in time and space, but religious language is metaphysical, which deals with the structure of reality (what is prior to time and space and structures it).

    In a way, this is the very crux of the matter - as modern nihilism may be defined as the loss of any mode outside of that relating to events within time and space.

    In this connection it's worth recalling how naturalism as a philosophy came into existence (the belief that only nature exists as a complete system in itself).

    Empiricism was developed as a technique, and a technique is a special exclusion of non relevant considerations in order to obtain a very specific set of results. In order to obtain certain information about events and objects in space and time in order to control them more consistently, metaphysics was not an immediately relevant consideration.

    The first scientists, like Newtown and Kepler, remained fascinated by metaphysics and wrote reams on it. Gradually, however, what was excluded by choice at the outset from the new technique came to be the basis of a new metaphysics. Which is really weird if you stop and think about it.

    But I think the practice and habit of artificially narrowing your mental focus carry with it certain clear dangers - (Mcgilchrist is relevant here) - and perhaps the ability to practice science extensively while holding in mind that it is just a technique was something that was bound to be largely lost except among certain exceptional people.

    Perhaps in the future culture that will emerge, it will be recognized that technique itself is dangerous - it can modify the human mind - and must be handled with care. And this hindsight knowledge will be added to the stock of human wisdom. Perhaps no one will be allowed to practice science without reading poetry in the evening, and taking regular weeks off to visit nature :)

    As for naturalism, it is an incoherent philosophy. It can't explain the existence of the world. Godel's incompleteness theorem might be recalled here.

    So naturalism must posit the world as a random absurdity - which is just another way of saying I can't logically explain the world.

    Logically, this is by no means preferable to the metaphysical arguments for the ground of all being.

    Of course, as a kind of heroic quixotic stubbornness, one may well choose to maintain the world is absurd - many of the French existentialists reveled in doing just that - but one should not kid oneself one is being superiorly logical by doing so.

    (Of course, here I mean naturalism as a positively held belief, and not agnosticism).

    , @Mikel
    @HeavilyMarbledSteak


    you and Bashi seem to have laid you’re conversation to rest on amicable terms.
     
    I don't know why a religious conversation in the 21st century would have to lead to animosity, at least in this part of the world. People who are sure of their religious beliefs should rather feel pity for someone like me who lost his ability to believe and is unable to recover it. The most probable cause of animosity in such circumstances is the lack of security in those beliefs, I think, which leads to feeling threatened by the simple existence of someone disputing them.

    Besides, I hope not come across as a belligerent atheist, which I'm not. I have no interest whatsoever in convincing anyone about the sad nonexistence of God. On the contrary, I am asking for reasons to believe in it for myself and this inevitably leads to the explanation of my own views, that threaten nodody. In fact, my trying to understand how other people are able to believe means that I am open to the possibility of my being wrong. How many religious people here are open to the possibility that perhaps it is me who is right? Please raise your hands.

    Somehow, I thought that you wouldn't be very sympathetic to attempts to reach God through purely logical arguments, like the one Ivashka presented. That looks very different to the kind of Taoist, experimental approach that you have been defending, if I understood you correctly. Aquinas, by the way, was quite an opposite figure to Lao-Zhe. He was in favor of the death penalty and the extermination of heretics.


    Gradually, however, what was excluded by choice at the outset from the new technique came to be the basis of a new metaphysics.
     
    I don't think that's exactly what happened. Science showed in a very compelling way, much more compelling than pure faith, that many of the things that the Church had been preaching for centuries were false. This inevitably led to doubting all the rest of the religious edifice. Science is inquisitive and skeptical by nature. The clash between science and established religion with immovable dogmas was unavoidable. But I do agree that science cannot totally substitute religion or metaphysics and that is how I think most scientists regard the matter today. Even when Hawkings or Greene reject the idea of God as the cause of the Big Bang, they are implicitly admitting that at that level of scientific inquiry, the existence of phenomena beyond physics is not immediately out of the question.

    Replies: @Sher Singh, @Barbarossa, @HeavilyMarbledSteak, @Coconuts

  335. @HeavilyMarbledSteak
    @Mikel

    Just a very quick note -

    God defined as the Ground of All Being can have a connection to salvation and human concerns in general, if salvation is correctly understood.

    Such a God is "all in all" - that means, that literally everything that exists is either God or God in the mode of other than God becoming God. That means us humans are God in the mode of becoming God.

    That has implications for how we understand our true natures and the true ends of human life.

    In this scheme, our true end is to realize our union with God, which would be salvation. It is in a way an ontological quest that realizes the essence of our being.

    In theologies that understand God this way (most classic ones), it's believed that man has a "natural" desire to realize union with God, because only that fulfills his true nature.

    I know you don't see it this way, but I think the feeling you get from nature is you encountering God, and it's among the most satisfying feelings of your life, I understand.

    Anyways this is just the briefest of sketches, and you and Bashi seem to have laid you're conversation to rest on amicable terms.

    For my part, as long as you continue your forays into the wilderness and climb mountains, you're worshipping God better than most of us here :)

    Replies: @Ivashka the fool, @HeavilyMarbledSteak, @Mikel

    Do you also digest others’ food for them instead of just inviting them to eat ?

    Let people first decide whether they are starving before force-feeding them.

    🙂

    • Replies: @HeavilyMarbledSteak
    @Ivashka the fool


    Let people first decide whether they are starving before force-feeding them.

     

    You are of course right.

    It's never a good idea to give people what they did not ask for, and every spiritual tradition warns against this in some way. And talking about this stuff is not experiencing it, which is primary.

    I confess it's a besetting vice of mine.

    Replies: @Ivashka the fool

  336. @HeavilyMarbledSteak
    @Mikel

    Just a very quick note -

    God defined as the Ground of All Being can have a connection to salvation and human concerns in general, if salvation is correctly understood.

    Such a God is "all in all" - that means, that literally everything that exists is either God or God in the mode of other than God becoming God. That means us humans are God in the mode of becoming God.

    That has implications for how we understand our true natures and the true ends of human life.

    In this scheme, our true end is to realize our union with God, which would be salvation. It is in a way an ontological quest that realizes the essence of our being.

    In theologies that understand God this way (most classic ones), it's believed that man has a "natural" desire to realize union with God, because only that fulfills his true nature.

    I know you don't see it this way, but I think the feeling you get from nature is you encountering God, and it's among the most satisfying feelings of your life, I understand.

    Anyways this is just the briefest of sketches, and you and Bashi seem to have laid you're conversation to rest on amicable terms.

    For my part, as long as you continue your forays into the wilderness and climb mountains, you're worshipping God better than most of us here :)

    Replies: @Ivashka the fool, @HeavilyMarbledSteak, @Mikel

    These conversations are bedeviled by people arguing from different and mutually incompatible modes – modern people tend to always argue from the scientific mode, which deals with events in time and space, but religious language is metaphysical, which deals with the structure of reality (what is prior to time and space and structures it).

    In a way, this is the very crux of the matter – as modern nihilism may be defined as the loss of any mode outside of that relating to events within time and space.

    In this connection it’s worth recalling how naturalism as a philosophy came into existence (the belief that only nature exists as a complete system in itself).

    Empiricism was developed as a technique, and a technique is a special exclusion of non relevant considerations in order to obtain a very specific set of results. In order to obtain certain information about events and objects in space and time in order to control them more consistently, metaphysics was not an immediately relevant consideration.

    The first scientists, like Newtown and Kepler, remained fascinated by metaphysics and wrote reams on it. Gradually, however, what was excluded by choice at the outset from the new technique came to be the basis of a new metaphysics. Which is really weird if you stop and think about it.

    But I think the practice and habit of artificially narrowing your mental focus carry with it certain clear dangers – (Mcgilchrist is relevant here) – and perhaps the ability to practice science extensively while holding in mind that it is just a technique was something that was bound to be largely lost except among certain exceptional people.

    Perhaps in the future culture that will emerge, it will be recognized that technique itself is dangerous – it can modify the human mind – and must be handled with care. And this hindsight knowledge will be added to the stock of human wisdom. Perhaps no one will be allowed to practice science without reading poetry in the evening, and taking regular weeks off to visit nature 🙂

    As for naturalism, it is an incoherent philosophy. It can’t explain the existence of the world. Godel’s incompleteness theorem might be recalled here.

    So naturalism must posit the world as a random absurdity – which is just another way of saying I can’t logically explain the world.

    Logically, this is by no means preferable to the metaphysical arguments for the ground of all being.

    Of course, as a kind of heroic quixotic stubbornness, one may well choose to maintain the world is absurd – many of the French existentialists reveled in doing just that – but one should not kid oneself one is being superiorly logical by doing so.

    (Of course, here I mean naturalism as a positively held belief, and not agnosticism).

    • Agree: Ivashka the fool
  337. @Ivashka the fool
    @HeavilyMarbledSteak

    Do you also digest others' food for them instead of just inviting them to eat ?

    Let people first decide whether they are starving before force-feeding them.

    🙂

    Replies: @HeavilyMarbledSteak

    Let people first decide whether they are starving before force-feeding them.

    You are of course right.

    It’s never a good idea to give people what they did not ask for, and every spiritual tradition warns against this in some way. And talking about this stuff is not experiencing it, which is primary.

    I confess it’s a besetting vice of mine.

    • Replies: @Ivashka the fool
    @HeavilyMarbledSteak


    I confess it’s a besetting vice of mine.
     
    Une faute avouée est à moitié pardonnée...

    🙂
  338. @HeavilyMarbledSteak
    @Ivashka the fool


    Let people first decide whether they are starving before force-feeding them.

     

    You are of course right.

    It's never a good idea to give people what they did not ask for, and every spiritual tradition warns against this in some way. And talking about this stuff is not experiencing it, which is primary.

    I confess it's a besetting vice of mine.

    Replies: @Ivashka the fool

    I confess it’s a besetting vice of mine.

    Une faute avouée est à moitié pardonnée…

    🙂

    • Thanks: HeavilyMarbledSteak
  339. [MORE]

    ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫਤਿਹ

  340. @AP
    @RSDB


    1. A reliable method exists for the quantification of sinfulness.
     
    Are sins associated with certain behaviors? Lust with number of sexual partners, for example? Wrath with assault or murder? Gluttony with obesity and drug abuse?

    If so, then can sins not be measured and thus quantified?

    So person X assaulted five people, abuses alcohol, has stolen, has slept with 10 women, person Y has not assaulted anyone, does not abuse alcohol, does not steal, and is faithful to his wife, therefore person X has committed more measurable sins than has person Y.

    I am not suggesting that all sins can be measured - we can't measure what people are thinking, sarcasm and rudeness are harder to measure than physical assault, one can't quanity a cold heart. But just as homicide rate can serve as a rough but valid proxy for crime in general, these identifying and measurable sins can serve as a rough but valid proxy for sinfulness.

    So in this limited and still significant way, it would appear that one can measure sinfulness.

    The poor have been more sinful people[AP’s phrasing]/worse people[my phrasing]
     
    1. I don't think it's phrasing, the meanings are different. Sinful means - having engaged in sin more. Worse is a value judgment. They may be linked - it's hard to say that a pedophile murderer is not worse than someone who has never done such things. But not quite the same.

    2. If sins can be measured (as it seems is likely - we can measure assaults, sexual partner number, etc.) than it follows that certain groups can be identified as engaging in more or less sin than do other groups. We can compare crime rate, numbers of average sexual partners, etc. to make broad and general conclusions about different groups of people regarding sinfulness. As with other measures such as IQ, such averages do not determine what is true of a given individual from each group.

    I do not think it is safe to do so.
     
    Could you please elaborate on why to you, it does not seem safe to do so? That is, why might it be unsafe to quantify observable sinful behaviors to see patterns among groups, as long as one is careful not to judge individuals based on the group averages?

    In his comments to me, he has been very clear that his views on the subject are his own and not part of the apostolic Catholic or Orthodox traditions.
     
    On this particular topic and methodology, the Church has nothing to say AFAIK. But in general my views on topics of religious discussion are as far as I know have been supported by sources I have provided, in line with standard Orthodox and Catholic traditions.

    Replies: @RSDB, @RSDB, @Barbarossa

    The Church has nothing to say AFAIK

    Do not presume this. Please bring these propositions to your priest. He is your shepherd, and I am not. Again, you do not have to tell us about it. You don’t have to take his advice but please get it. It will take less time than you have spent on it on here. He might tell you it’s none of his business. What will you have lost?

    I will say again, at the risk once again of overstepping the bounds of politeness, you may be in grave peril. I am not just saying this for some rhetorical effect.

    This board is a place for light entertainment and idle gossip. You would not make a medical diagnosis on here, for obvious reasons. This is far more serious.

    Then we can all have fun arguing again.

    • LOL: Sher Singh
  341. @Barbarossa
    @AP

    I'd like to make clear that I actually have no wish to try to make the point that the rich abuse substances at higher rates than poor people. I wouldn't be surprised that poorer people do abuse substances at higher rates than richer people. The exact breakdown is immaterial to my point which is that you were citing tendentious statistics to paint an unnecessarily binary picture of poor sinful people abusing substances in contrast to the orderly example of their more virtuous betters. In reality substance abuse is a massive problem across socioeconomic lines, though because of it's association with despair I don't find it unusual that it would be highest represented in the most desperate populations.

    I'd still be interested in hearing what your response would be to my other points.

    On a slight tangent, I don't think that your thoughts about the aristocracy translate to today's class dynamic. The aristocracy, at least in the ideal which was sometimes realized and sometimes not, operated under a societal sense of mutual responsibility and obligation. This is not really the case today. Their are still vestiges of it in that we laud the rich who give to charity, but that is far different from a specific and concrete responsibility to care for those directly under the old order aristocrat. Also, we don't socially penalize the rich who don't practice charity. It's seen not as a responsibility in a deep sense just a nice option.

    Replies: @Sher Singh, @RSDB

    Perhaps I made a mistake in suspending argument, but I think it’s better to err in that direction than in the direction of frivolity. Too many words …

    It’s strange, I was planning a response around the usual lines, and then somehow I ended up saying something completely different.

  342. @songbird
    @A123

    It's kind of blackpilling to think that you could have O'Neill cylinders and jumpgates and an area like Downbelow inhabited by the dregs of society.

    What a bleak vision of the future!

    Replies: @A123

    It’s kind of blackpilling to think that you could have O’Neill cylinders and jumpgates and an area like Downbelow inhabited by the dregs of society.

    What a bleak vision of the future!

    Any collection of people = people. Add technology:

    ⦾ Stone age… Still people
    ⦾ Iron age… Still people
    ⦾ Space age… Still people
    ⦾ “Trek Tech” like replicators… How many people would key up recreational chemicals?

    Technology does not make people better.
    ___

    I find the entire poor/rich sinners conversation baffling.

    • Rich sinners create damage on an epic scale, such as Harvey Weinstein & Bernie Madoff.
    • Many of the poorest, homeless sinners could be helped by reopening mental health facilities.
    • Making workers poorer has been incredibly destructive.

    Remember when a family with one working parent was the norm? And, that breadwinner could support spouse and children? It is much easier for a child to fall into sin when there is not a parent looking after them.

    Industrial, trade, and migration policies that restore the value of work & traditional family structure would do much to fix society’s problems.
    ___

    As a side note. Every public High School should be required to have a rifle range and mandatory firearms class. Sher Singh would likely approve. Probably Barbarossa too. Weapons are fundamentally tools. Everyone should understand and respect them.

    PEACE 😇

    • Agree: Ivashka the fool, RSDB
    • Replies: @Ivashka the fool
    @A123


    Technology does not make people better.
     
    I have heard a couple of times people wonder about how is it possible for religion to survive in our times with all the "scientific knowledge" and "technological advances".

    I think it could be explained by pointing to the word religion having its origin in the Latin religare which meant "establishing a bond", "linking".

    Religion connects, links, establishes a bond between incomplete human nature and that which has the potential to make this human nature of ours more complete and perfect.

    In any day and age, under any social system and with any possible technology, humans will still be incomplete and perfectible, therefore religion will still be a part of human experience.

    The only way to "kill" religion (some would probably write "cure" instead of "kill") would be to make humans entirely oblivious of their shortcomings and imperfections. We're nearly there, but not quite.

    Replies: @Another Polish Perspective

    , @songbird
    @A123

    “Trek Tech” like replicators… How many people would key up recreational chemicals?
     

    Now there is an interesting line of thought. I recall that in Star Trek, they implied that people stopped watching TV, but I don't think they ever explained why, that I can recall.

    If I had to think about Bab5 in a technical way, I'd suppose that Earth would want to set it up as some Potemkin village, to show their strengths to aliens and not their weaknesses. But maybe it is a mistake to think too technically.

    I will give them points for counter-signaling Star Trek's idea of no money. At worst, ST should have had UBI.


    • Rich sinners create damage on an epic scale, such as Harvey Weinstein & Bernie Madoff.
    • Many of the poorest, homeless sinners could be helped by reopening mental health facilities.
    • Making workers poorer has been incredibly destructive.
     
    All good points.

    Since we are having a discussion about sin: I don't want to touch too much into controversial areas here, but I've always been baffled by what strikes me as the feminist conception that pedophilia is when any guy is interested in a woman <18.

    Whether the girl is 18 or 17 or 21, it is still a sin to abuse her, and I think this rhetoric of hyperbole only serves to make excuses for the fact.


    Every public High School should be required to have a rifle range and mandatory firearms class.
     
    I like the vision of self-pride where something like this would be possible. I remember being in school and at one point, they banned book-bags between classes, ostensibly for security purposes. Of course, it was just degrading theater-of-the-mind for paranoid lunatics.

    Replies: @A123

  343. @A123
    @songbird


    It’s kind of blackpilling to think that you could have O’Neill cylinders and jumpgates and an area like Downbelow inhabited by the dregs of society.

    What a bleak vision of the future!
     
    Any collection of people = people. Add technology:

    ⦾ Stone age... Still people
    ⦾ Iron age... Still people
    ⦾ Space age... Still people
    ⦾ "Trek Tech" like replicators... How many people would key up recreational chemicals?

    Technology does not make people better.
    ___

    I find the entire poor/rich sinners conversation baffling.

    • Rich sinners create damage on an epic scale, such as Harvey Weinstein & Bernie Madoff.
    • Many of the poorest, homeless sinners could be helped by reopening mental health facilities.
    • Making workers poorer has been incredibly destructive.

    Remember when a family with one working parent was the norm? And, that breadwinner could support spouse and children? It is much easier for a child to fall into sin when there is not a parent looking after them.

    Industrial, trade, and migration policies that restore the value of work & traditional family structure would do much to fix society's problems.
    ___

    As a side note. Every public High School should be required to have a rifle range and mandatory firearms class. Sher Singh would likely approve. Probably Barbarossa too. Weapons are fundamentally tools. Everyone should understand and respect them.

    PEACE 😇

    Replies: @Ivashka the fool, @songbird

    Technology does not make people better.

    I have heard a couple of times people wonder about how is it possible for religion to survive in our times with all the “scientific knowledge” and “technological advances”.

    I think it could be explained by pointing to the word religion having its origin in the Latin religare which meant “establishing a bond”, “linking”.

    Religion connects, links, establishes a bond between incomplete human nature and that which has the potential to make this human nature of ours more complete and perfect.

    In any day and age, under any social system and with any possible technology, humans will still be incomplete and perfectible, therefore religion will still be a part of human experience.

    The only way to “kill” religion (some would probably write “cure” instead of “kill”) would be to make humans entirely oblivious of their shortcomings and imperfections. We’re nearly there, but not quite.

    • Agree: Coconuts
    • Replies: @Another Polish Perspective
    @Ivashka the fool


    I have heard a couple of times people wonder about how is it possible for religion to survive in our times with all the “scientific knowledge” and “technological advances”.
     
    From a technological perspective, the most reasonable answer would be that gods have been some highly advanced alien civilization, not some pan-Cosmic or pan-Earth immanent deity like Gaia . For reasons unknown, religious people generally do not like this idea, not even pagans really: well, you could say they prefer Nature to Technique....or is that about that humans would feel somehow conned when gods would be just beings more advanced than them...? When I once suggested to a religious, Church-going man that angels could be UFOs, he vehemently insisted that UFOs must be demons. Why such enmity to UFOs? And that, despite me bringing up the words of Pope Francis, who I think two years ago said around Christmas (when there was this strange, "alien" Christmas crib in Vatican) that it is entirely likely that in Universe beings exist in "full communion with Our Creator".
  344. @Mikel
    @Coconuts


    I don’t understand what you mean by ‘God’ and ‘modest’ here.
     
    By God I mean the being described in the Abrahamic and other monotheist religions with a profound connection to us, humans. So profound that He send us prophets and even His own son to redeem us and change our behaviors.

    The claim that the Universe, contrary to what top cosmologists like Hawkings, Sean Carrol or Brian Greene think, cannot be conceived without a first cause or unconditional reality is much more modest. It only deals with the nature of reality but has no particular significance by itself for hominids on planet Earth or any other species anywhere else. Whether the Big Bang was put in motion spontaneously or caused by an unconditioned reality, no salvific intervention follows for a species that appeared much later in a remote corner of the resulting Universe. At least that's how I see the argument that Ivashka linked to. Anyone correct me where I'm wrong.

    Replies: @Ivashka the fool, @Coconuts

    By God I mean the being described in the Abrahamic and other monotheist religions with a profound connection to us, humans. So profound that He send us prophets and even His own son to redeem us and change our behaviors.

    I thought we were talking about the first cause, necessary being etc. not God as he is presented in specific religious traditions or by philosophers like Kant. (I see Bashi has already made this point).

    But, are you interested in politics and issues about patriarchal authority here?

    The claim that the Universe, contrary to what top cosmologists like Hawkings, Sean Carrol or Brian Greene think, cannot be conceived without a first cause or unconditional reality is much more modest.

    I also thought the arguments being discussed started from premises about the existence of change, the existence of objects with more than one part, whether the existence of contingent facts and entities has an explanation, not about cosmology as such.

    It only deals with the nature of reality but has no particular significance by itself for hominids on planet Earth or any other species anywhere else.

    Say, if causation is generative in the Aristotleian sense the first cause has a lot to do with hominids and everything else. Or if it must be present in virtue of a principle of sufficient reason. These things have nothing to do with spatial location or physical size of entities and things like that.

    At least from my own pov, I don’t judge it to be modest to pass off Empiricist Naturalism or Kantian metaphysics (or worse something like Logical Positivism) as if they were just common sense and can’t be rationally doubted.

    Whether the Big Bang was put in motion spontaneously or caused by an unconditioned reality, no salvific intervention follows for a species that appeared much later in a remote corner of the resulting Universe.

    As I said above I don’t think whether God exists is dependent on whether God wants to save humanity or these questions about spatial location.

  345. @Mikel
    @Ivashka the fool


    An Atheist is supposed to deny God in any forms
     
    Who cares? I don't think I have ever categorically denied anything related to God. Just expressed my disbelief. Contrary to what you said, I don't belong to any belief system or community that I need to defend. You (or A123, always arguing about the correct terminology on this matter, or AP, always appalled at people reneging the authority of the Church) can call me whatever you please. It doesn't change anything. But, according to Wikipedia, perhaps my current position should be categorized as agnostic atheist: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnostic_atheism


    your demands for special salvific intervention towards human beings do not strike me as common sense at all.
     
    You have this totally backwards. You should take that up with the people in this blog who do believe in a salvific deity. I have just pointed out that the Ismaili/Aquinas God and the God they believe in are totally different concepts and have just explained why in my reply to Coconuts.

    What would be wrong with the logical demonstration offered by Ismaili Gnostic?

     

    I wrote a rather lengthy reply to this question with various points. And I did it at your request. You never addressed any of those points so we're going circular here, aren't we?

    Replies: @Ivashka the fool, @HeavilyMarbledSteak, @Coconuts

    Contrary to what you said, I don’t belong to any belief system or community that I need to defend.

    Iirc Aristotle is supposed to have said something like ‘the man who is part of no community would be no man and would either be a beast or a god’. I think all communities form for some end or purpose, in pursuit of some idea of the good.

    This may be why lately this idea is looking increasingly probable again:

    Politics is just the religion people actually believe in.

  346. @Mikhail
    A mint take down including the comments section -

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FL_mG6I1jy8

    Replies: @Wokechoke

    I don’t mind that she’s a hypocrite but she appears to be a blithering moron/giggling idiot. Greta “I own 100 private jets” Thunberg.
    Metzger was right about the Eurocops doing arrests softly. After the Rhodes Statue protest in Oxford a pack of coons started to breakdance and surrounded a couple of cops demanding they kneel. The cops counter break danced and kneeled like good PR flacks.

    • Replies: @Greasy William
    @Wokechoke

    ACAB

  347. @Ivashka the fool
    @A123


    Technology does not make people better.
     
    I have heard a couple of times people wonder about how is it possible for religion to survive in our times with all the "scientific knowledge" and "technological advances".

    I think it could be explained by pointing to the word religion having its origin in the Latin religare which meant "establishing a bond", "linking".

    Religion connects, links, establishes a bond between incomplete human nature and that which has the potential to make this human nature of ours more complete and perfect.

    In any day and age, under any social system and with any possible technology, humans will still be incomplete and perfectible, therefore religion will still be a part of human experience.

    The only way to "kill" religion (some would probably write "cure" instead of "kill") would be to make humans entirely oblivious of their shortcomings and imperfections. We're nearly there, but not quite.

    Replies: @Another Polish Perspective

    I have heard a couple of times people wonder about how is it possible for religion to survive in our times with all the “scientific knowledge” and “technological advances”.

    From a technological perspective, the most reasonable answer would be that gods have been some highly advanced alien civilization, not some pan-Cosmic or pan-Earth immanent deity like Gaia . For reasons unknown, religious people generally do not like this idea, not even pagans really: well, you could say they prefer Nature to Technique….or is that about that humans would feel somehow conned when gods would be just beings more advanced than them…? When I once suggested to a religious, Church-going man that angels could be UFOs, he vehemently insisted that UFOs must be demons. Why such enmity to UFOs? And that, despite me bringing up the words of Pope Francis, who I think two years ago said around Christmas (when there was this strange, “alien” Christmas crib in Vatican) that it is entirely likely that in Universe beings exist in “full communion with Our Creator”.

  348. @AP
    @RSDB


    1. A reliable method exists for the quantification of sinfulness.
     
    Are sins associated with certain behaviors? Lust with number of sexual partners, for example? Wrath with assault or murder? Gluttony with obesity and drug abuse?

    If so, then can sins not be measured and thus quantified?

    So person X assaulted five people, abuses alcohol, has stolen, has slept with 10 women, person Y has not assaulted anyone, does not abuse alcohol, does not steal, and is faithful to his wife, therefore person X has committed more measurable sins than has person Y.

    I am not suggesting that all sins can be measured - we can't measure what people are thinking, sarcasm and rudeness are harder to measure than physical assault, one can't quanity a cold heart. But just as homicide rate can serve as a rough but valid proxy for crime in general, these identifying and measurable sins can serve as a rough but valid proxy for sinfulness.

    So in this limited and still significant way, it would appear that one can measure sinfulness.

    The poor have been more sinful people[AP’s phrasing]/worse people[my phrasing]
     
    1. I don't think it's phrasing, the meanings are different. Sinful means - having engaged in sin more. Worse is a value judgment. They may be linked - it's hard to say that a pedophile murderer is not worse than someone who has never done such things. But not quite the same.

    2. If sins can be measured (as it seems is likely - we can measure assaults, sexual partner number, etc.) than it follows that certain groups can be identified as engaging in more or less sin than do other groups. We can compare crime rate, numbers of average sexual partners, etc. to make broad and general conclusions about different groups of people regarding sinfulness. As with other measures such as IQ, such averages do not determine what is true of a given individual from each group.

    I do not think it is safe to do so.
     
    Could you please elaborate on why to you, it does not seem safe to do so? That is, why might it be unsafe to quantify observable sinful behaviors to see patterns among groups, as long as one is careful not to judge individuals based on the group averages?

    In his comments to me, he has been very clear that his views on the subject are his own and not part of the apostolic Catholic or Orthodox traditions.
     
    On this particular topic and methodology, the Church has nothing to say AFAIK. But in general my views on topics of religious discussion are as far as I know have been supported by sources I have provided, in line with standard Orthodox and Catholic traditions.

    Replies: @RSDB, @RSDB, @Barbarossa

    why to you, it does not seem safe to do so?

    Fair enough.

    [MORE]

    The danger lies in the frivolity of the exercise. When you confess your sins each week or whenever as much as possible by kind and number, you could just as easily draw up a running chart showing your change in total sinfulness from week to week or year to year (do you do this?); most people including me would consider that absurd, but it might at least have a laudable object and you have a right to be interested in the state of your own soul.

    I never heard of any recommendation for the examination of conscience that involved giving oneself a total sinfulness score on a scale of 1 to 100 but one might be out there, although I doubt it.

    When you do the same with other people for the amusement of comparison or to make some point online, you are concerning yourself with something that is none of your concern, and doing it for an entirely frivolous object. That you are doing it with an extremely leaky method, to say the least, is almost an afterthought, but it doesn’t help.

    Do not keep arguing on here about this. Take these propositions to your priest. As I said, if you do that, if you like I will take these propositions to a sociologist as sociological questions, although they are not questions any sociologist would take seriously.

    • Thanks: AP
    • Replies: @AP
    @RSDB

    The context of the discussion was another poster's belief that our Christian society is bad and ought to be dismantled and that people such as the homeless are like the early saints - more virtuous and Christlike because they reject the social system in which they live. It is better to be more like them and awful to want to help them to change.

    I don't think it is frivolous to challenge such a claim, to oppose this nihilistic post-modernism that denigrates virtues and applauds vice.

    So I challenged it by pointing out that our society is very different than the one in Christ's time - our prosperous and middle classes and our homeless "rebels" are very different from the non-poor and poor of Christ's time.*

    And I supported my claim by describing measurable behaviors.

    *In our Christian world the well off and middle classes came by their money through work and they give generously to the poor (privately, plus through taxes they have chosen through elected government) and often to the Church, whereas in Christ's time they came by their wealth through conquest, enslavement, or parasitic tax collection and viewed the poor as not being their concern.

    Replies: @RSDB

  349. @Ivashka the fool
    @AP

    It is true that Ukrainian is a melodic language exquisitely suited for songs and chanting.

    Replies: @AnonfromTN

    Ukrainian is arguably the most melodic Slavic language. That’s why Ukrainian songs were so popular in the USSR. Shame on the scum who made it associate with their parochial quasi Nazism, defaming a beautiful language.

  350. Zeihan predicts disappearance of Ukrainian ethnicity in 20-30 years:

    [MORE]

    begins at about 7:24

    • Replies: @AP
    @songbird

    Don’t know the guy’s work but thanks for demonstrating that he is a fool who shouldn’t be taken seriously (assuming your summary is correct; I take you at your word).

    Replies: @Wokechoke, @songbird

  351. @Ivashka the fool
    @Wokechoke


    Do fast talking Russians hide behind so-so English skills?
     
    Yes we do.

    🙂

    Replies: @AnonfromTN

    There is nothing specifically Russian about it. The lab where I was a post-doc many years ago had a Chinese graduate student who, when she could not answer the question, used what we called “quick mumble “.

  352. @Mikhail

    Trollstoy
    @Trollstoy88
    Ukraine alone (without Western help) before the conflict had 2.596 tanks.
    Do you really think that 100 or even 200 Leopard tanks will be a deal-breaker to change the tide? 🤭
     
    https://twitter.com/

    Trollstoy88/status/1618212576453877762

    Replies: @songbird, @AnonfromTN

    Ukrainian win is a fairly tale for the most gullible sheeple. The only purpose of supplying Ukraine with arms is to force the RF to spend as much resources as possible to weaken it. The war is between the US and the RF, Ukraine is a pawn, not a player.

    • Replies: @Beckow
    @AnonfromTN


    ...The war is between the US and the RF, Ukraine is a pawn, not a player.
     
    Anglos find others to fight their wars since they cant have casualties for domestic reasons. The dumb willingness to be used that so many Ukies display is astounding - they don't even pay them, or more precisely they pay some Ukies, the ones who are not fighting and dying.

    This is a very basic common sense and national IQ test and Ukies are failing. There is probably no other nation today that is willing to sacrifice its men and destroy itself - for what? Nato bases and a ban on teaching in Russian.

    They are also not weakening Russia - winning wars by definition strengthens a country, that will come back to haunt the Western sponsors when Russia wins, as is very likely.

    Replies: @AP

  353. @A123
    @songbird


    It’s kind of blackpilling to think that you could have O’Neill cylinders and jumpgates and an area like Downbelow inhabited by the dregs of society.

    What a bleak vision of the future!
     
    Any collection of people = people. Add technology:

    ⦾ Stone age... Still people
    ⦾ Iron age... Still people
    ⦾ Space age... Still people
    ⦾ "Trek Tech" like replicators... How many people would key up recreational chemicals?

    Technology does not make people better.
    ___

    I find the entire poor/rich sinners conversation baffling.

    • Rich sinners create damage on an epic scale, such as Harvey Weinstein & Bernie Madoff.
    • Many of the poorest, homeless sinners could be helped by reopening mental health facilities.
    • Making workers poorer has been incredibly destructive.

    Remember when a family with one working parent was the norm? And, that breadwinner could support spouse and children? It is much easier for a child to fall into sin when there is not a parent looking after them.

    Industrial, trade, and migration policies that restore the value of work & traditional family structure would do much to fix society's problems.
    ___

    As a side note. Every public High School should be required to have a rifle range and mandatory firearms class. Sher Singh would likely approve. Probably Barbarossa too. Weapons are fundamentally tools. Everyone should understand and respect them.

    PEACE 😇

    Replies: @Ivashka the fool, @songbird

    “Trek Tech” like replicators… How many people would key up recreational chemicals?

    Now there is an interesting line of thought. I recall that in Star Trek, they implied that people stopped watching TV, but I don’t think they ever explained why, that I can recall.

    [MORE]

    If I had to think about Bab5 in a technical way, I’d suppose that Earth would want to set it up as some Potemkin village, to show their strengths to aliens and not their weaknesses. But maybe it is a mistake to think too technically.

    I will give them points for counter-signaling Star Trek’s idea of no money. At worst, ST should have had UBI.

    • Rich sinners create damage on an epic scale, such as Harvey Weinstein & Bernie Madoff.
    • Many of the poorest, homeless sinners could be helped by reopening mental health facilities.
    • Making workers poorer has been incredibly destructive.

    All good points.

    Since we are having a discussion about sin: I don’t want to touch too much into controversial areas here, but I’ve always been baffled by what strikes me as the feminist conception that pedophilia is when any guy is interested in a woman <18.

    Whether the girl is 18 or 17 or 21, it is still a sin to abuse her, and I think this rhetoric of hyperbole only serves to make excuses for the fact.

    Every public High School should be required to have a rifle range and mandatory firearms class.

    I like the vision of self-pride where something like this would be possible. I remember being in school and at one point, they banned book-bags between classes, ostensibly for security purposes. Of course, it was just degrading theater-of-the-mind for paranoid lunatics.

    • Replies: @A123
    @songbird



    “Trek Tech” like replicators… How many people would key up recreational chemicals?
     
    Now there is an interesting line of thought.
     
    https://youtu.be/L31S2frVnOc

    I recall that in Star Trek, they implied that people stopped watching TV, but I don’t think they ever explained why, that I can recall.
     
    Hmmm.... Making TV and movies is quite hard. It probably exists at a fan production level. However, gathering enough talented people to make professional grade works likely became infeasible without the lure of money. Can you imagine working on the tragic $1 Billion horror that is Amazon's Rings of Power if you had any other choice?

    ST:Enterprise had "Movie Night". One of the films was Rosemary's Baby

    https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Movie_night

    If I had to think about Bab5 in a technical way, I’d suppose that Earth would want to set it up as some Potemkin village, to show their strengths to aliens and not their weaknesses. But maybe it is a mistake to think too technically.
     
    That was probably the idea with Babylon 1 & 2. By the time the track record of screw ups reached Babylon 5 they were probably happy to open anything habitable. The next steps were declaring "Mission Accomplished" and rapidly moving on before something went BOOM.

    PEACE 😇

    Replies: @songbird

  354. @Ivashka the fool
    @LondonBob

    US taking full control and pushing the UK subservient Khokhols towards the exit. The Brits have overplayed their hand in the Intermarium project. All must be equal under the Pentagon's MIC.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @LondonBob

    • Replies: @Emil Nikola Richard
    @LondonBob

    Helmer et al are making a mountain out of a molehill. There's a hotline between Washington and Moscow, no?

    Somebody in the White House is intelligent enough to write a script where Biden eats crow and apologizes to Putin and to the Russian nation. This ain't rocket science. Also: nobody is going to do that anytime soon. This is like redirecting an oil tanker, not a a dirt bike.

    Replies: @LondonBob

  355. @AP
    @RSDB


    1. A reliable method exists for the quantification of sinfulness.
     
    Are sins associated with certain behaviors? Lust with number of sexual partners, for example? Wrath with assault or murder? Gluttony with obesity and drug abuse?

    If so, then can sins not be measured and thus quantified?

    So person X assaulted five people, abuses alcohol, has stolen, has slept with 10 women, person Y has not assaulted anyone, does not abuse alcohol, does not steal, and is faithful to his wife, therefore person X has committed more measurable sins than has person Y.

    I am not suggesting that all sins can be measured - we can't measure what people are thinking, sarcasm and rudeness are harder to measure than physical assault, one can't quanity a cold heart. But just as homicide rate can serve as a rough but valid proxy for crime in general, these identifying and measurable sins can serve as a rough but valid proxy for sinfulness.

    So in this limited and still significant way, it would appear that one can measure sinfulness.

    The poor have been more sinful people[AP’s phrasing]/worse people[my phrasing]
     
    1. I don't think it's phrasing, the meanings are different. Sinful means - having engaged in sin more. Worse is a value judgment. They may be linked - it's hard to say that a pedophile murderer is not worse than someone who has never done such things. But not quite the same.

    2. If sins can be measured (as it seems is likely - we can measure assaults, sexual partner number, etc.) than it follows that certain groups can be identified as engaging in more or less sin than do other groups. We can compare crime rate, numbers of average sexual partners, etc. to make broad and general conclusions about different groups of people regarding sinfulness. As with other measures such as IQ, such averages do not determine what is true of a given individual from each group.

    I do not think it is safe to do so.
     
    Could you please elaborate on why to you, it does not seem safe to do so? That is, why might it be unsafe to quantify observable sinful behaviors to see patterns among groups, as long as one is careful not to judge individuals based on the group averages?

    In his comments to me, he has been very clear that his views on the subject are his own and not part of the apostolic Catholic or Orthodox traditions.
     
    On this particular topic and methodology, the Church has nothing to say AFAIK. But in general my views on topics of religious discussion are as far as I know have been supported by sources I have provided, in line with standard Orthodox and Catholic traditions.

    Replies: @RSDB, @RSDB, @Barbarossa

    I’m going to give this one more shot to get at the heart of the matter. Some of the points that I’d like to make in regards to the poor and sinfulness can perhaps be best communicated via a personal anecdote.

    A couple years ago, on my way to a jobsite I kept driving past a homeless guy who was set up on the side of the road pan-handling. I brought him some food one day and had a bit of a conversation with him. He seemed like a harmless enough guy, probably mid-60’s with a pretty fit and wiry build. A couple days later I decided to stop again and this time I offered him some work and a space to stay at my shop. He agreed and loaded his stuff into my big van for the ride back to my workshop. I set him up in my office with a futon, use of the microwave etc. and the plan for him to work on painting some of my barn the next day.

    The next day came and he procrastinated on really doing any work. Instead, he set up his chair outside the shop and worked on a seemingly endless supply of Keystone Light. He affable enough though ill at ease and finally asked to go back to where I picked him up from. So the next day as I made my way to the job-site I dropped him off supplied with a few basics and my phone number if he changed his mind.

    While driving with him he talked some about his past and he just seemed like a man who had been broken by the world. Unsuccessful in marriage, alcoholic, and unskilled in any particular trade, he found himself gradually falling a little further until he had nothing and no one left, settling for the easy solutions of mobility and cheap beer.

    A couple things stuck in my mind about the whole encounter, which hold true for most other interactions I’ve had with homeless people. One was his evident discomfort with being treated as a man, and not just an object of charity. He had an almost animal undercurrent of distrust or apprehension. In trying to treat him with some dignity it seemed like it was too uncomfortable for him.

    I really believe that a part of him truly wanted to take me up on my offer and that when he got into my van he really intended to do that work. However, when the time came to take that action it seemed like he was paralyzed by fear. Part of him could envision a different path, but he found himself unable or unwilling to push past that fear and give it a go. In the end it was too much of a difficult prospect and he could only revert to what he knew and was comfortable with.

    Was the man socially dysfunctional and self destructive? Undeniably yes. I have an extremely hard time saying that he was really a sinful man though. Sin’s seriousness is largely contingent upon intent and awareness. In John 9:40-41 Jesus spells this out.

    Some of the Pharisees who were with Him heard this, and they asked Him, “Are we blind too?” “If you were blind,” Jesus replied, “you would not be guilty of sin. But since you claim you can see, your guilt remains.”

    That homeless man seemed to me one who was blind. I truly think he was really doing the best that he could, given what he could muster within himself, but that life and whatever his circumstances had been had beaten him down so far that the prospect of change or taking me up on my offer was cripplingly petrifying. So, I take issue with judging that man or others like him of some empirical measure of sinfulness. We just don’t know that, we are not God, and we are explicitly instructed against this type of yardstick measurement. In the end I felt as though that man was worthy of my sympathy and my aid, but that I couldn’t find in myself to judge him. I just felt rather sad for him.

    So, I think if you want to make a discussion the social utility (or lack of) of homeless populations, the differences in IQ correlated to lack of self-control in homeless populations, or any number of similar angles then I think you can use the logical framework that you have adopted. As soon as you bring sin and associated ideas of relative spiritual worthiness into the equation then I react strongly to it as I see your empirical approach as being not only unapplicable, but also as RSDB says, spiritually dangerous.

    I would be more likely to see as morally culpable the people at the top who have systematically dismantled our moral and ethical frameworks which provided certain behavioral and social guardrails which may have helped someone like that maintain a healthier path in life.

    • Thanks: Mr. Hack, Yahya, RSDB, AP
    • Replies: @Barbarossa
    @Barbarossa

    To elaborate my last point, I think that many people, the majority really, absolutely need the guardrails and strictures of organized religion and social convention to function in a healthy way. I agree with much of what Heavily Marbled Steak may say, but sometimes I think he misses this fact.

    A certain minority of people may have or develop the spiritual and intellectual capacity to do the right thing simply because it is the right thing and not because it is a prescribed law. This is the state that Christ calls us to, "to live in Spirit and in Truth". However, many are unable to reach this point and for those people the rules are necessary and good. They may be external, but they give signposts along the way to guide.

    When organized religion fails is when it stops at this point and progresses no further. Or even worse, when it holds people back from a closer experience of the Divine. This is essentially the state of the Jewish religion when Jesus found it. He insisted that there was more.

    Organized religions and laws are useful and necessary when they serve as moral training wheels but they must serve as a conduit for that deeper internal communion with the Divine (ie. the indwelling of the Holy Spirit). But even though such an intimate connection is the goal, many will never get to that point in this present life. That is okay and I don't think that God holds it against them, but I think that AaronB should be cognizant that if all followed his rather anarchic and free-form spiritual path many would be destroyed spiritually and morally. Personally, I sympathize with much of what AaronB is saying and much of it mirrors my own understanding and path. However, I know from experience that it's not possible or even advisable for everyone. To an extent, we all need the spiritual training wheels at one time or another and even if we progress deeper it doesn't mean that we are freed from the more basic rules, just pursuing the good for its' own sake and not because it is mandated.

    , @AP
    @Barbarossa

    You are a very good man who in this case has done a very good deed.


    Was the man socially dysfunctional and self destructive? Undeniably yes. I have an extremely hard time saying that he was really a sinful man though. Sin’s seriousness is largely contingent upon intent and awareness.
     
    The man you described was probably aware that he was deceiving the people from whom he was panhandling - they were assuming he would spend it on food or shelter, not at the nearby liquor store. And he was probably aware that he was harming his body with his actions.

    This does not make him a bad person, nor diminish his worth as a person. The guy is basically harmless to others, of course. He probably even does a favor to the people whom he deceives - they feel good about giving money because they think they are feeding someone with it, even though they are actually giving money to a liquor store for the purpose of poisoning another human being (or do a drug dealer for the same purpose).

    But he is doing something wrong and ought to be helped.

    Through work I've spoken at length to about four people who panhandle with those signs near highway exit intersections (that I know of). In every case they say that they wait out there until they have enough to buy a bottle of liquor, then their "workday" is done and they "party." Food is often gotten for free outside restaurants, and they know where to do go for free food at church kitchens. They generally don't use money on food, but on alcohol or drugs.


    As soon as you bring sin and associated ideas of relative spiritual worthiness
     
    AaronB brought it into the equation by claiming that the homeless were more virtuous than the working people who marry and have families; I pointed out that they were more likely to engage in sinful behavior and supported my claim by empirical evidence of sinful behavior.

    but also as RSDB says, spiritually dangerous
     
    It seems to be spiritually dangerous for a lot of people to support the removal of what you describe as guardrails, and to promote behaviors that involve harming oneself and others. That is, to claim that sins are virtues and that virtues are hypocrisy or controlling behaviors.

    Replies: @Barbarossa

    , @HeavilyMarbledSteak
    @Barbarossa

    I like your comment overall, and appreciate your anecdote about that homeless person.

    The only thing I wonder about, is whether it's possible to see that guy as someone who was more suited to the contemplative path, but who could not find his way to it in the modern world.

    Perhaps, he was someone who in Wordsworth's words " the world was too much for him" - that is, the modern world of machines, industry, business, money, competition, etc. Wordsworth certainly thought there might be something wrong with the modern world he saw emerging in his time.

    And perhaps there was a part of him that wanted to do a certain amount decent, minimal work, but who was afraid that once he set out on that path the modern world of work would swallow him whole.

    I once worked in my 20s at a job that was very highly paid, but rather soul crushing. I would take frequent time off to devote to what really mattered to me (the money was high enough to let me do that), but one time, I noticed that as the months passed I didn't hate the work so much - but also, that something in me was dying, and I was losing touch with Beauty. I got scared, and quit.

    Of course, I also agree with you that most average people do well with structure and guidelines and signposts, and the total loss of these in modern times has been a disaster. And it's possible that homeless guy was merely a casualty of this.

    In the end, I think society should be a pyramid - a solid foundation of traditional values, family, reasonable work, etc, leading up to the higher spiritual pursuits at the apex.

    I would only say that in modern times, the obsession with work and money has dis-ordered the solid foundation away from "reasonable", satisfying work towards frenetic modern work, and that "apex spirituality", which sheds it's light back onto the solid foundation, has been lost.

    What I'm advocating for really is an expanded, more inclusive vision - and not an either/or type thing.

    But overall good comment and thanks for sharing.

    Replies: @Sher Singh

  356. This could be done with giant beavers:

    [MORE]

  357. @Barbarossa
    @AP

    I'm going to give this one more shot to get at the heart of the matter. Some of the points that I'd like to make in regards to the poor and sinfulness can perhaps be best communicated via a personal anecdote.

    A couple years ago, on my way to a jobsite I kept driving past a homeless guy who was set up on the side of the road pan-handling. I brought him some food one day and had a bit of a conversation with him. He seemed like a harmless enough guy, probably mid-60's with a pretty fit and wiry build. A couple days later I decided to stop again and this time I offered him some work and a space to stay at my shop. He agreed and loaded his stuff into my big van for the ride back to my workshop. I set him up in my office with a futon, use of the microwave etc. and the plan for him to work on painting some of my barn the next day.

    The next day came and he procrastinated on really doing any work. Instead, he set up his chair outside the shop and worked on a seemingly endless supply of Keystone Light. He affable enough though ill at ease and finally asked to go back to where I picked him up from. So the next day as I made my way to the job-site I dropped him off supplied with a few basics and my phone number if he changed his mind.

    While driving with him he talked some about his past and he just seemed like a man who had been broken by the world. Unsuccessful in marriage, alcoholic, and unskilled in any particular trade, he found himself gradually falling a little further until he had nothing and no one left, settling for the easy solutions of mobility and cheap beer.

    A couple things stuck in my mind about the whole encounter, which hold true for most other interactions I've had with homeless people. One was his evident discomfort with being treated as a man, and not just an object of charity. He had an almost animal undercurrent of distrust or apprehension. In trying to treat him with some dignity it seemed like it was too uncomfortable for him.

    I really believe that a part of him truly wanted to take me up on my offer and that when he got into my van he really intended to do that work. However, when the time came to take that action it seemed like he was paralyzed by fear. Part of him could envision a different path, but he found himself unable or unwilling to push past that fear and give it a go. In the end it was too much of a difficult prospect and he could only revert to what he knew and was comfortable with.

    Was the man socially dysfunctional and self destructive? Undeniably yes. I have an extremely hard time saying that he was really a sinful man though. Sin's seriousness is largely contingent upon intent and awareness. In John 9:40-41 Jesus spells this out.


    Some of the Pharisees who were with Him heard this, and they asked Him, “Are we blind too?” “If you were blind,” Jesus replied, “you would not be guilty of sin. But since you claim you can see, your guilt remains.”
     
    That homeless man seemed to me one who was blind. I truly think he was really doing the best that he could, given what he could muster within himself, but that life and whatever his circumstances had been had beaten him down so far that the prospect of change or taking me up on my offer was cripplingly petrifying. So, I take issue with judging that man or others like him of some empirical measure of sinfulness. We just don't know that, we are not God, and we are explicitly instructed against this type of yardstick measurement. In the end I felt as though that man was worthy of my sympathy and my aid, but that I couldn't find in myself to judge him. I just felt rather sad for him.

    So, I think if you want to make a discussion the social utility (or lack of) of homeless populations, the differences in IQ correlated to lack of self-control in homeless populations, or any number of similar angles then I think you can use the logical framework that you have adopted. As soon as you bring sin and associated ideas of relative spiritual worthiness into the equation then I react strongly to it as I see your empirical approach as being not only unapplicable, but also as RSDB says, spiritually dangerous.

    I would be more likely to see as morally culpable the people at the top who have systematically dismantled our moral and ethical frameworks which provided certain behavioral and social guardrails which may have helped someone like that maintain a healthier path in life.

    Replies: @Barbarossa, @AP, @HeavilyMarbledSteak

    To elaborate my last point, I think that many people, the majority really, absolutely need the guardrails and strictures of organized religion and social convention to function in a healthy way. I agree with much of what Heavily Marbled Steak may say, but sometimes I think he misses this fact.

    A certain minority of people may have or develop the spiritual and intellectual capacity to do the right thing simply because it is the right thing and not because it is a prescribed law. This is the state that Christ calls us to, “to live in Spirit and in Truth”. However, many are unable to reach this point and for those people the rules are necessary and good. They may be external, but they give signposts along the way to guide.

    When organized religion fails is when it stops at this point and progresses no further. Or even worse, when it holds people back from a closer experience of the Divine. This is essentially the state of the Jewish religion when Jesus found it. He insisted that there was more.

    Organized religions and laws are useful and necessary when they serve as moral training wheels but they must serve as a conduit for that deeper internal communion with the Divine (ie. the indwelling of the Holy Spirit). But even though such an intimate connection is the goal, many will never get to that point in this present life. That is okay and I don’t think that God holds it against them, but I think that AaronB should be cognizant that if all followed his rather anarchic and free-form spiritual path many would be destroyed spiritually and morally. Personally, I sympathize with much of what AaronB is saying and much of it mirrors my own understanding and path. However, I know from experience that it’s not possible or even advisable for everyone. To an extent, we all need the spiritual training wheels at one time or another and even if we progress deeper it doesn’t mean that we are freed from the more basic rules, just pursuing the good for its’ own sake and not because it is mandated.

  358. @songbird
    Zeihan predicts disappearance of Ukrainian ethnicity in 20-30 years:

    begins at about 7:24

    https://youtu.be/UuhgLlxJMkU

    Replies: @AP

    Don’t know the guy’s work but thanks for demonstrating that he is a fool who shouldn’t be taken seriously (assuming your summary is correct; I take you at your word).

    • Replies: @Wokechoke
    @AP

    He's got several things wrong.

    But anyway, the Ukraine appears to be vanishing. The Ukraine is requesting that the EU repatriate their young men hiding from the Jew King of Kiev's Draft because the situation is so critical.

    Moscow has 12 million inhabitants alone, so Zeihan is comparing apples to oranges. Kiev is limping along at 3 million tops. The UN suggests that Ukraine may be down to 25-30 million people.


    Warsaw is something like 2.5 million.


    Moscow is like a Mordorian population sink in more ways than one.

    , @songbird
    @AP

    Zeihan often says very foolish things, that's why he is entertaining, he's not cautious, and not afraid to stick his neck out there. (even when he obviously has made big errors, recently). But I think his summary here is noteworthy for two reasons:

    1.) he's fairly aligned with the US State Department, when it comes to foreign policy, if not necessarily with his predictions. So, in broad strokes, though he has tried to maintain a superficially neutral facade (and often failed), he seems supportive of the war.

    Not sure how he would rationalize an uncompromising attitude, if he believes in a catastrophic demographic scenario. Ticking up the death totals and other casualties can't be good for demographics. (Or, at least it probably isn't good) And, if the people are doomed, then what is it all for?

    2.) His doomerist beliefs are provocative. Maybe, Ukraine and Russia aren't really doomed, but they do have very big demographic problems (and Ukraine even moreso than Russia). How will they solve that, unless they acknowledge it? IMO, some level of doomerism is needed.

    In general, where he fails with demographics is he never touches the third rail of shifting racial groups in the US or Europe. But he has a good understanding of age cohorts, even if he is a bit too doomerist.

    And he also understands some things, like Russia has at least 4x the men to draw on, which makes a kill ratio of 3 to 1 Ukrainians to Russians (as many estimate for the current operations) really, really bad, and counterproductive.

    BTW, he predicts a shift in Spring to targeting agricultural and port infrastructure, with consequently massive negative effects in the Third World, and especially Egypt. He's already predicted stuff like that, with it failing to materialize, but I do wonder what will happen if Russia shits attacks from the electrical grid.

    Replies: @Wokechoke

  359. @AP
    @songbird

    Don’t know the guy’s work but thanks for demonstrating that he is a fool who shouldn’t be taken seriously (assuming your summary is correct; I take you at your word).

    Replies: @Wokechoke, @songbird

    He’s got several things wrong.

    But anyway, the Ukraine appears to be vanishing. The Ukraine is requesting that the EU repatriate their young men hiding from the Jew King of Kiev’s Draft because the situation is so critical.

    Moscow has 12 million inhabitants alone, so Zeihan is comparing apples to oranges. Kiev is limping along at 3 million tops. The UN suggests that Ukraine may be down to 25-30 million people.

    Warsaw is something like 2.5 million.

    Moscow is like a Mordorian population sink in more ways than one.

  360. @HeavilyMarbledSteak
    @Mikel

    Just a very quick note -

    God defined as the Ground of All Being can have a connection to salvation and human concerns in general, if salvation is correctly understood.

    Such a God is "all in all" - that means, that literally everything that exists is either God or God in the mode of other than God becoming God. That means us humans are God in the mode of becoming God.

    That has implications for how we understand our true natures and the true ends of human life.

    In this scheme, our true end is to realize our union with God, which would be salvation. It is in a way an ontological quest that realizes the essence of our being.

    In theologies that understand God this way (most classic ones), it's believed that man has a "natural" desire to realize union with God, because only that fulfills his true nature.

    I know you don't see it this way, but I think the feeling you get from nature is you encountering God, and it's among the most satisfying feelings of your life, I understand.

    Anyways this is just the briefest of sketches, and you and Bashi seem to have laid you're conversation to rest on amicable terms.

    For my part, as long as you continue your forays into the wilderness and climb mountains, you're worshipping God better than most of us here :)

    Replies: @Ivashka the fool, @HeavilyMarbledSteak, @Mikel

    you and Bashi seem to have laid you’re conversation to rest on amicable terms.

    I don’t know why a religious conversation in the 21st century would have to lead to animosity, at least in this part of the world. People who are sure of their religious beliefs should rather feel pity for someone like me who lost his ability to believe and is unable to recover it. The most probable cause of animosity in such circumstances is the lack of security in those beliefs, I think, which leads to feeling threatened by the simple existence of someone disputing them.

    Besides, I hope not come across as a belligerent atheist, which I’m not. I have no interest whatsoever in convincing anyone about the sad nonexistence of God. On the contrary, I am asking for reasons to believe in it for myself and this inevitably leads to the explanation of my own views, that threaten nodody. In fact, my trying to understand how other people are able to believe means that I am open to the possibility of my being wrong. How many religious people here are open to the possibility that perhaps it is me who is right? Please raise your hands.

    Somehow, I thought that you wouldn’t be very sympathetic to attempts to reach God through purely logical arguments, like the one Ivashka presented. That looks very different to the kind of Taoist, experimental approach that you have been defending, if I understood you correctly. Aquinas, by the way, was quite an opposite figure to Lao-Zhe. He was in favor of the death penalty and the extermination of heretics.

    Gradually, however, what was excluded by choice at the outset from the new technique came to be the basis of a new metaphysics.

    I don’t think that’s exactly what happened. Science showed in a very compelling way, much more compelling than pure faith, that many of the things that the Church had been preaching for centuries were false. This inevitably led to doubting all the rest of the religious edifice. Science is inquisitive and skeptical by nature. The clash between science and established religion with immovable dogmas was unavoidable. But I do agree that science cannot totally substitute religion or metaphysics and that is how I think most scientists regard the matter today. Even when Hawkings or Greene reject the idea of God as the cause of the Big Bang, they are implicitly admitting that at that level of scientific inquiry, the existence of phenomena beyond physics is not immediately out of the question.

    • Replies: @Sher Singh
    @Mikel


    How many religious people here are open to the possibility that perhaps it is me who is right? Please raise your hands.
     
    https://www.manglacharan.com/post/three-paths-to-liberation-and-the-gobind-gita

    Sure, but thought of my own journey & it's not explainable by religiosity (Brahmanism).
    Only violence,

    Ie went from street thug to professional soldier to Khalsa.

    The innate sense to fight for justice won out over the societal expectation to fight for $$.
    A moral code to fight for also allows pursuit of excellence in Warriorship above a mercenary.

    ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫਤਹਿ
    , @Barbarossa
    @Mikel

    Don't worry, you don't come across as a militant atheist at all. I would characterize you as an honest skeptic. I think it's an honorable position and I would only think less of you if you feigned a faith that you do not possess. Perhaps some day you will find that faith finds you or perhaps not, either way if you keep an open mind it's all that can be asked.

    Personally, I seem to find myself incapable of not having faith. This is due to my own experiences in life which are rather worthless in convincing another person one way or another, especially in a venue like this.

    To answer your question I do absolutely admit the possibility that you are correct about God. In life their is rarely any empirical certainty on one's beliefs. Perhaps I'm deluded, or insane, or have leapt to wrong conclusions. It's impossible to dismiss the possibility since somebody has to be wrong in this life. I would be inclined to say that anyone of faith who says that they do not also doubt is being disingenuous.

    But at the same time I'm not sure that genuine faith could exist without that occasional doubt. Those doubts cause one to examine their faith critically and a failure or fear to do so would cause faith to become a parody of itself; a mere convention rather than a search for ultimate truth.

    , @HeavilyMarbledSteak
    @Mikel

    Of course it should never lead to animosity:) It never should have historically either.

    I like the Asian religious model of tolerance and syncretism and blurry boundaries, in which religions are all held to point to the same Truth but offer different paths to people with different temperaments.

    In China, everyone was said to be a little bit Buddhist, a little bit Taoist, and a little bit Confucian. When Buddhism first came to China, people simply considered it an Indian version of Taoism - indeed there were some nativist voices that called for rejecting this "foreign import", but on the whole, the pragmatic and syncretist genius of the Chinese won out and integrated it into the fold.

    Thailand is ostensibly Buddhist - but everywhere you go in Bangkok there are shrines and status to Hindu gods. Practically every hotel has this elaborate and wonderful shrine to Brahma which I always used to love examining. And thousands of lovely "spirit houses" paying respect to the local spirits are everywhere, adding a significant animist layer to the local syncretism.

    I am a huge fan of such syncretism and blurry boundaries :) Perhaps we can add Atheism to the syncretist vision as well - it's a big tent :)

    Indeed, there are kinds of atheism that are more spiritual than some kinds of religion (like that of AP).

    As for intellectualism, you're quite correct that my favored approach is experiential and contemplative rather than intellectual.

    Indeed, when I first started reading David Bentley Hart I was put off by his extremely elaborate intellectualism - I had just come off reading Mcgilchrist - but he ended up winning me over. I found an unexpected beauty and cogency in his intellectualism and began to see the grandeur of the ancient metaphysical traditions, although my approach is still experiential.

    But there is a lath for all of us.

    As for you, you certainly don't come off as dogmatic and intolerant at all - I actually agree with your rejection of the way religion has come to be interpreted in modern times, as factual and literal and dogmatic. Certainly if you take "created in six days" literally then that kind of thing can't survive on the modern world.

    But to my gratification, the ancient religions never understood it this way until modern times.

    As for Thomas Aquinas, you are correct he is very much not my cup of tea - he seems to have been a moral monster, who thought the righteous would enjoy seeing sinners writhe in hell, and thought the perfection if creation required some to suffer and be damned. This is a significant deterioration from ancient Christianity, and infinitely inferior to Mahayana Buddhism with it's beautiful vision of the Bodhisattva who refuses Nirvana to eventually save every last sentient being. Thomism was a huge disaster in Western Christianity. For all that, some of his metaphysical arguments are interesting.

    Well, I definitely appreciate your willingness to strike a bold and uncompromising skeptical stance, and you should continue as long as this seems satisfying to you - it does not create any hard feelings jn me.

    And we should talk more about our wilderness forays really....

    Replies: @Sher Singh, @Mikel

    , @Coconuts
    @Mikel


    The most probable cause of animosity in such circumstances is the lack of security in those beliefs, I think, which leads to feeling threatened by the simple existence of someone disputing them.
     
    I wonder about moral foundations theory; the liberal atheist or agnostic may often be perceived as a threat to the 'binding' foundations of a group or community, i.e. loyalty, authority and sanctity. These foundations tend to be more important to conservatives (apart from libertarians), but their salience has gone into decline, especially in Western societies. Hence the animosity is no longer what it would have been in the past. But they haven't totally disappeared.

    On the contrary, I am asking for reasons to believe in it for myself and this inevitably leads to the explanation of my own views, that threaten nodody.
     
    Can't be 100% certain. There is an interesting book by the evolutionary biologist David Wilson called 'Darwin's Cathedral', about the relationship between religious belief, group selection and reproductive success. This book started drawing attention to the negative correlation between atheism/agnosticism, fertility rate and group fitness.

    Nietzsche seems to have had some intuition about this in relation to the coming of the culture of the 'Last Man':

    Zarathustra confronts them with a goal so disgusting that he assumes that it will revolt them – a culture which seeks only passive comfort and routine, avoiding everything that could potentially bring risk, pain, or disappointment...

    Nietzsche warned that the society of the last man could be too barren and decadent to support the growth of healthy human life or great individuals.
     

    I don’t think that’s exactly what happened.
     
    I did think HMS was talking about the emergence of philosophical Naturalism, not about Christian teaching based on the content of revelation and the Bible.

    If you take the view that the Natural Sciences rather than rival philosophy or metaphysics was the most important thing in undermining the philosophical teaching of the Church, I think this would be like holding to a strong form of Physicalism or Scientism, plus a strong viewpoint on the history of philosophy. Both of which are going to be in tension with any form of religious belief.

    Replies: @AP

  361. I guess he had a commercial drivers license and was picked to drive a Lend-Lease Leopard?

  362. @songbird
    @A123

    “Trek Tech” like replicators… How many people would key up recreational chemicals?
     

    Now there is an interesting line of thought. I recall that in Star Trek, they implied that people stopped watching TV, but I don't think they ever explained why, that I can recall.

    If I had to think about Bab5 in a technical way, I'd suppose that Earth would want to set it up as some Potemkin village, to show their strengths to aliens and not their weaknesses. But maybe it is a mistake to think too technically.

    I will give them points for counter-signaling Star Trek's idea of no money. At worst, ST should have had UBI.


    • Rich sinners create damage on an epic scale, such as Harvey Weinstein & Bernie Madoff.
    • Many of the poorest, homeless sinners could be helped by reopening mental health facilities.
    • Making workers poorer has been incredibly destructive.
     
    All good points.

    Since we are having a discussion about sin: I don't want to touch too much into controversial areas here, but I've always been baffled by what strikes me as the feminist conception that pedophilia is when any guy is interested in a woman <18.

    Whether the girl is 18 or 17 or 21, it is still a sin to abuse her, and I think this rhetoric of hyperbole only serves to make excuses for the fact.


    Every public High School should be required to have a rifle range and mandatory firearms class.
     
    I like the vision of self-pride where something like this would be possible. I remember being in school and at one point, they banned book-bags between classes, ostensibly for security purposes. Of course, it was just degrading theater-of-the-mind for paranoid lunatics.

    Replies: @A123

    “Trek Tech” like replicators… How many people would key up recreational chemicals?

    Now there is an interesting line of thought.

    I recall that in Star Trek, they implied that people stopped watching TV, but I don’t think they ever explained why, that I can recall.

    Hmmm…. Making TV and movies is quite hard. It probably exists at a fan production level. However, gathering enough talented people to make professional grade works likely became infeasible without the lure of money. Can you imagine working on the tragic $1 Billion horror that is Amazon’s Rings of Power if you had any other choice?

    ST:Enterprise had “Movie Night”. One of the films was Rosemary’s Baby

    https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Movie_night

    If I had to think about Bab5 in a technical way, I’d suppose that Earth would want to set it up as some Potemkin village, to show their strengths to aliens and not their weaknesses. But maybe it is a mistake to think too technically.

    That was probably the idea with Babylon 1 & 2. By the time the track record of screw ups reached Babylon 5 they were probably happy to open anything habitable. The next steps were declaring “Mission Accomplished” and rapidly moving on before something went BOOM.

    PEACE 😇

    • Thanks: songbird
    • Replies: @songbird
    @A123

    LOL. People often denounced that episode Code of Honor where they go to a planet of blacks, and one of them abducts Tasha, but I think the Irish episode is at least 100x more racist. Haven't seen it in a while, but let's review:

    1.) they are luddites
    2.) covered in filth
    3.) drunks
    4.) only female character (a scold) drops her clothes for Riker at the drop of a hat
    5.) only male character henpecked by his daughter
    6.) they try to start a fire in a starship (and set up a still, bring farm animals)
    7.) father tries to sell his daughter to the captain.

    An impressive total, and not sure I covered everything. Anyway, as amusing as it is, it is not exactly my dream of an Irish planet.

    I think Voyager tried to make up for it with a more bucolic episode showing the charm of village life on the holodeck, but not a memorable episode as a whole.

  363. @AP
    @songbird

    Don’t know the guy’s work but thanks for demonstrating that he is a fool who shouldn’t be taken seriously (assuming your summary is correct; I take you at your word).

    Replies: @Wokechoke, @songbird

    Zeihan often says very foolish things, that’s why he is entertaining, he’s not cautious, and not afraid to stick his neck out there. (even when he obviously has made big errors, recently). But I think his summary here is noteworthy for two reasons:

    [MORE]

    1.) he’s fairly aligned with the US State Department, when it comes to foreign policy, if not necessarily with his predictions. So, in broad strokes, though he has tried to maintain a superficially neutral facade (and often failed), he seems supportive of the war.

    Not sure how he would rationalize an uncompromising attitude, if he believes in a catastrophic demographic scenario. Ticking up the death totals and other casualties can’t be good for demographics. (Or, at least it probably isn’t good) And, if the people are doomed, then what is it all for?

    2.) His doomerist beliefs are provocative. Maybe, Ukraine and Russia aren’t really doomed, but they do have very big demographic problems (and Ukraine even moreso than Russia). How will they solve that, unless they acknowledge it? IMO, some level of doomerism is needed.

    In general, where he fails with demographics is he never touches the third rail of shifting racial groups in the US or Europe. But he has a good understanding of age cohorts, even if he is a bit too doomerist.

    And he also understands some things, like Russia has at least 4x the men to draw on, which makes a kill ratio of 3 to 1 Ukrainians to Russians (as many estimate for the current operations) really, really bad, and counterproductive.

    BTW, he predicts a shift in Spring to targeting agricultural and port infrastructure, with consequently massive negative effects in the Third World, and especially Egypt. He’s already predicted stuff like that, with it failing to materialize, but I do wonder what will happen if Russia shits attacks from the electrical grid.

    • Replies: @Wokechoke
    @songbird

    There's going to be a 10-15 million strong metropolis like Moscow on the Eastern European plain (short of a nuclear strike on it, it'll be Moscow playing that role) no matter what happens. That city will require a clear passage for goods into international waters serviced by a warm weather port. That means they have to have Kerch and Sevastopol.

    Kiev maxes out at 3.5 residents and simply isn't suitable for that Megalopolitan role. it'll have to concede Crimea to Russia. even if Russia's population is contracting they will have a capital city of around 10-15 million citizens for the foreseeable future.

    Replies: @songbird

  364. @songbird
    @AP

    Zeihan often says very foolish things, that's why he is entertaining, he's not cautious, and not afraid to stick his neck out there. (even when he obviously has made big errors, recently). But I think his summary here is noteworthy for two reasons:

    1.) he's fairly aligned with the US State Department, when it comes to foreign policy, if not necessarily with his predictions. So, in broad strokes, though he has tried to maintain a superficially neutral facade (and often failed), he seems supportive of the war.

    Not sure how he would rationalize an uncompromising attitude, if he believes in a catastrophic demographic scenario. Ticking up the death totals and other casualties can't be good for demographics. (Or, at least it probably isn't good) And, if the people are doomed, then what is it all for?

    2.) His doomerist beliefs are provocative. Maybe, Ukraine and Russia aren't really doomed, but they do have very big demographic problems (and Ukraine even moreso than Russia). How will they solve that, unless they acknowledge it? IMO, some level of doomerism is needed.

    In general, where he fails with demographics is he never touches the third rail of shifting racial groups in the US or Europe. But he has a good understanding of age cohorts, even if he is a bit too doomerist.

    And he also understands some things, like Russia has at least 4x the men to draw on, which makes a kill ratio of 3 to 1 Ukrainians to Russians (as many estimate for the current operations) really, really bad, and counterproductive.

    BTW, he predicts a shift in Spring to targeting agricultural and port infrastructure, with consequently massive negative effects in the Third World, and especially Egypt. He's already predicted stuff like that, with it failing to materialize, but I do wonder what will happen if Russia shits attacks from the electrical grid.

    Replies: @Wokechoke

    There’s going to be a 10-15 million strong metropolis like Moscow on the Eastern European plain (short of a nuclear strike on it, it’ll be Moscow playing that role) no matter what happens. That city will require a clear passage for goods into international waters serviced by a warm weather port. That means they have to have Kerch and Sevastopol.

    Kiev maxes out at 3.5 residents and simply isn’t suitable for that Megalopolitan role. it’ll have to concede Crimea to Russia. even if Russia’s population is contracting they will have a capital city of around 10-15 million citizens for the foreseeable future.

    • Replies: @songbird
    @Wokechoke

    I agree. Pournelle and Niven's vision from the '70s or '80s of a CoDominion, where the US and USSR formed an alliance to rule the world, may be a little out of date. But that doesn't mean that Russia will give up Crimea.

    Short of the Poles going all-in and putting boots on the ground (which seems unlikely), hard for me to imagine a rollback to the 1991 borders.

    Replies: @QCIC

  365. @HeavilyMarbledSteak
    @Dmitry

    Yeah, yeah, it's all good.

    Either way as you say APs viewpoint led to a good discussion on this site, so kudos to him for being a little bit crazy :)

    I can kind of see why he's a collectors item for you in your Unz pantheon of eccentrics (although I suspect I'm another, perhaps placed on a shelf right below AP :) )

    Replies: @Ivashka the fool, @Dmitry

    placed on a shelf right below AP

    You’re (with Bashibuzuk, Altan etc) the pro-religious anti-materialist side of the spectrum for this forum, AP is the anti-religious* and materialist side of the spectrum.

    In terms of the user interaction, I reply more to AP’s posts to higher percentage than any other user in the forum. So, you can see where the interests are in overlap between users.

    So, for example, Yahya is from Egypt. I don’t want to ask him about Islam or “future of the soul”, which we know Bashibuzuk is waiting to ask, but I would think probably boring.

    But I was waiting for polite time to ask for his food recommendations without stereotype him too much (the stereotype Arabs know more about food than even Italians) or what he thinks about el-Sisi, which e.g. Bashibuzuk will think probably boring.

    * Although seeing it only in terms of social utility means he is more tolerant than the other people here, about e.g. Mormons. There is the positive side of this viewpoint. But for people that are spiritual, it’s strange to see people viewing religion in terms of social and political utility, like saying to romantic people that “love is good because it reduced blood pressure”.

    • Replies: @Yahya
    @Dmitry


    But I was waiting for polite time to ask for his food recommendations without stereotype him too much (the stereotype Arabs know more about food than even Italians) or what he thinks about el-Sisi, which e.g. Bashibuzuk will think probably boring.
     
    Lol, well I never knew Arabs were stereotyped as being knowledgeable about food in Europe. Perhaps that’s because Arab migrants have taken to operating many restaurants there. Even read somewhere that most “Italian” restaurants in Europe are run by Arabs.

    In the Arab world; Syrians are stereotyped as being cooks par excellence. You can find them working in many establishments in Egypt. I can’t say being an Arab gives me special insight into food. I don’t even know how to cook eggs. But I suppose I have some knowledge of Egyptian cuisine. Not sure what you meant by your question though; it’s a bit broad. But if you plan on visiting Egypt; I would recommend the following foods and restaurants.

    First, in terms of national dishes, the best Egypt has to offer is seafood and grilled meat.

    A) Grilled Meat (Mashweyat)

    The grilled meat (called “mashweyat” in Egyptian Arabic) you can find in every formerly Ottoman territory. The Turks have their variety that’s heavier and more saucy. Arab countries by contrast tend to lighten on the sauces and let the meat do the work. The “mixed grill” dish consists of 4-5 items: kofta, shish tawook, lamb chops, grilled kebab.


    https://i.ibb.co/JrSRMt3/181-F81-C9-AA78-43-C9-9-CCB-A3-EB2-DCEFB3-F.jpg


    Each you can order on its own. I personally like lamb chops and shish tawook the most. The former you can probably guess its taste. The latter is a marinated chicken dish that tastes a bit like the Indian Chicken Tikka.

    There’s also Shawarma which I probably don’t need to elaborate much on. The best shawarmas you will find in the “Third Worldy” type restaurants in Egypt like “Abu Amar El Soory” and “Semsema”. These types of restaurants are unsanitary, loud and chaotic so I’m not sure if people here can stomach it. Egyptians have sort of developed an immunity that allows them to eat that stuff, but probably its not advised if you are a foreigner on vacation. On the other hand, there are some clean restaurants like “Shaweremer” which you can find decent shawarma. For mixed grill “Manoufi” is the best, though it is a third world restaurant.

    B) Grilled Fish (Samak Mashwi)

    Egyptian seafood is totally unique, delicious and extremely underrated. After 5,000 years of living next to the Mediterranean and Red Sea, I believe Egyptians have perfected the art of seafood cooking. You’ll only find this style of spice in Lebanon, which copied the recipe from Egypt. This is why if you are in Egypt you definitely need to try Egyptian-style seafood. Unlike grilled meat, you won’t find this dish in any Western restaurant.

    I recommend the “Grilled Whole Fish” or “Samak Mashwi” in Arabic. You can choose any fish from Sea Bass to Grey Mullet and Sea Bream. Just tell the waiter “Mashwi” and he will grill it in the Egyptian style. You can also try fried fish, though I personally prefer grilled fish. Also the “butterfly shrimp” is quite exquisite.


    https://i.ibb.co/jWdybW5/ED82-BE65-F9-AB-4-A76-99-D2-90-A8527-D5-F66.jpg


    The best seafood restaurant I’ve tried is out in the Sinai, in a town called Ismailia. It’s about 2 hours from Cairo though. The most convenient restaurant in Cairo for fish is called “Asmak”. This website instructs you how to cook fish the Egyptian style if you’d like to cook at home: https://www.cookingchanneltv.com/recipes/samak-mashwi-grilled-fish-with-an-egyptian-twist-2273461

    If there’s any dish I’d recommend, it’s the grilled sea bream. Just a must really, if you go to Egypt without having tried it, your visit will have been for nought.

    C) Koshary

    There are other national dishes that are less luxurious and more “Staple Food” go poor Egyptians. They can be tasty in their own way, but there nothing special. The most common staple food is called koshary, it consist of basic carbohydrate items like lentils, rice, and pasta with tomato sauce and garlic.

    D) Molokheya

    The other item is called “Molokheya”. My guess is that many foreigners will find it too weird and exotic. You can already see by its appearance that it’s odd and weird - which it is. I personally like it, though I’m not sure people unaccustomed to it would. But it’s very popular in Egypt. It’s typically eaten with chicken and rice.


    https://i.ibb.co/chRXRhH/2-B663679-3857-474-C-AF94-A7-A75-F0-D6-B90.jpg


    E) Fava Beans (“Fool”)

    Another is called “fool” or “fava beans”, usually accompanied by “Tameya” or “Falafel”. It’s a staple breakfast for Egyptians. I love this dish, it’s simple but tasty. It tastes somewhat similar to beans found elsewhere, but with an Egyptian flavor. Would recommend it.

    My friend told me about this company that does tour guides of local Egyptian cuisine for tourists. I personally haven’t tried it but it looks professional, I’ll leave the link here: https://belliesenroute.com

    ————

    In terms of restaurants, there are many nice high-end restaurants in Egypt that are tasty and affordable. They aren’t particularly Egyptian though. Mostly serving international cushioned to upper class Egyptians. These restaurants are up to first world standards in cleanliness and décor, so you needn’t worry about food safety issues like in Egyptian restaurants.

    My favorite high-end restaurants in Cairo:

    1) Estro (Italian)
    2) Saachi (Japanese + International)
    3) Hana Barbecque (Korean)
    4) The Moghul Room (Indian)
    5) Al Beiruti (Lebanese)
    6) Mayrig (Armenian)

    The first one, “Estro” is my favorite. It’s owned and operated by a Sicilian lady who is always there and knows the customers by name. It’s located in a rooftop in an affluent Cairo suburb called Maadi. You can see large chunks of the city from the roof. Very peaceful and nice. The garlic shrimp is my favorite dish there.

    Hana Barbecque is owned and operated by a Korean lady who is married to an Egyptian. Food there is also fantastic, best Korean I’ve tasted thus far.

    Moghul room has some cool Indian-Islamic style architecture. The cutlery, plates and cups are also designed in a cool fashion. Would recommend as well.

    Saachi is very elite, serves Sushi and Wagyu beef and the like.

    I’ll get to Egypt’s government in another post.

    Replies: @Dmitry

  366. @LondonBob
    @Ivashka the fool

    Does follow shortly after Burns's visit to Kiev, interesting article by Helmer that the US government is looking for a way out.

    http://johnhelmer.org/blinken-concedes-war-is-lost-offers-kremlin-ukrainian-demilitarization-crimea-donbass-zaporozhe-and-restriction-of-new-tanks-to-western-ukraine-if-there-is-no-russian-offensive/

    Replies: @Emil Nikola Richard

    Helmer et al are making a mountain out of a molehill. There’s a hotline between Washington and Moscow, no?

    Somebody in the White House is intelligent enough to write a script where Biden eats crow and apologizes to Putin and to the Russian nation. This ain’t rocket science. Also: nobody is going to do that anytime soon. This is like redirecting an oil tanker, not a a dirt bike.

    • Replies: @LondonBob
    @Emil Nikola Richard

    Maybe, but Helmer is one of the better informed commentators, haven't seen the Wapo article discussed elsewhere yet. Ignatius has always been a mouthpiece for the CIA and/or State Department, so it was certainly an interesting article to publish.

    http://johnhelmer.org/blinken-explainer-nuland-too/#more-70544

  367. @A123
    @songbird



    “Trek Tech” like replicators… How many people would key up recreational chemicals?
     
    Now there is an interesting line of thought.
     
    https://youtu.be/L31S2frVnOc

    I recall that in Star Trek, they implied that people stopped watching TV, but I don’t think they ever explained why, that I can recall.
     
    Hmmm.... Making TV and movies is quite hard. It probably exists at a fan production level. However, gathering enough talented people to make professional grade works likely became infeasible without the lure of money. Can you imagine working on the tragic $1 Billion horror that is Amazon's Rings of Power if you had any other choice?

    ST:Enterprise had "Movie Night". One of the films was Rosemary's Baby

    https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Movie_night

    If I had to think about Bab5 in a technical way, I’d suppose that Earth would want to set it up as some Potemkin village, to show their strengths to aliens and not their weaknesses. But maybe it is a mistake to think too technically.
     
    That was probably the idea with Babylon 1 & 2. By the time the track record of screw ups reached Babylon 5 they were probably happy to open anything habitable. The next steps were declaring "Mission Accomplished" and rapidly moving on before something went BOOM.

    PEACE 😇

    Replies: @songbird

    LOL. People often denounced that episode Code of Honor where they go to a planet of blacks, and one of them abducts Tasha, but I think the Irish episode is at least 100x more racist.

    [MORE]
    Haven’t seen it in a while, but let’s review:

    1.) they are luddites
    2.) covered in filth
    3.) drunks
    4.) only female character (a scold) drops her clothes for Riker at the drop of a hat
    5.) only male character henpecked by his daughter
    6.) they try to start a fire in a starship (and set up a still, bring farm animals)
    7.) father tries to sell his daughter to the captain.

    An impressive total, and not sure I covered everything. Anyway, as amusing as it is, it is not exactly my dream of an Irish planet.

    I think Voyager tried to make up for it with a more bucolic episode showing the charm of village life on the holodeck, but not a memorable episode as a whole.

    • Thanks: A123
  368. @Ivashka the fool
    @AP


    collection of atheists, apostates, and heathens
     
    Guilty as charged.

    Even though I did not expect such Spanish Inquisition...

    https://live.staticflickr.com/3779/10780220965_489a1c355d_b.jpg

    Bring in the cushy pillows!

    🙂

    Now seriously, I think the debate between you AB and Dima is not theological, but social and psychological. You defend "conservative values", and sometimes use religious justifications to uphold these. They being younger and somewhat "Romantic" (to use Dima's vocabulary), defend more "progressive social norms" and also use Scripture to justify their take on these.

    Your whole debate is nothing new, people have often used religious justification to bolster their opinions on the way society should be organized. All this is typical human egotism and has nothing to do with God. As long as we all avoid St Barthelemy's nights and Holy Crusades, we will all stay good friends.

    One last thing, I (the apostate / heathen / whatever) do not doubt a minute that you do your best to be a good Christian. Just like I do my best to be a good "apostate / heathen / whatever"...

    🙂

    Replies: @songbird, @AP, @Dmitry

    AB and Dima is not theological, but social and psychological.

    Trigger for the discussion about homeless people in America (i.e. social and psychological), but the points I was saying to AP after are just the objective facts about the religion. If someone writes the opposite of the mainstream teaching in e.g. catechism of the Catholic church.

    That is the discussion begins more subjectively. But the parts in the last few posts is objective.

    and also use Scripture to justify their take on these.

    Scripture and mainstream interpretation says the opposite of those takes. It doesn’t mean the takes are incorrect. But there is labeling – you know, there are regulations about this in areas like the food industry. In this forum, it’s a kind of rhetorical game, where I just skip reading those parts of his posts where there is incorrect labeling, as it’s not where the interesting content is (although AP has interesting point of view of the world, which is unusual and individual).

    defend “conservative values”, and sometimes use religious justifications to uphold these. They being younger and somewhat “Romantic” (to use Dima’s vocabulary), defend more “progressive social norms”

    AP defends “Anti-Christ”, or “pagan”, values, which is socially taboo to say publicly in Europe unless you are Hindu, because of the thousand year of Christian programming “this is not our way”.

    So, people can believe rich are better than poor, but they would feel a bit self-conscious to say publicly, because there is the religious programming, which continues also in secular culture. But AP doesn’t have this taboo and can throw old vegetables on the people below, from the palace walls.

    He has right for his view. Maybe he is correct and others incorrect. Maybe throwing vegetables is the valid behavior. Perhaps, religion is only social utility. If Mormons are socially useful, then perhaps we shouldn’t criticize their belief. Those pagan value system include both happy/optimistic and dark/gloomy side. It’s not reduced to conservative/progressive. In some areas, it can be more tolerant (e.g. his view about Mormons is more progressive than my view), in other areas it can be less progressive (e.g. in terms of redistribution).

    In the past, AP was usually focusing more on the happy/optimistic side of his values. After February, you can see he includes more of the dark/gloomy side, probably because the world events. This is interesting, because there is such dark and light side in any of the values, but the dark and light side will be in different areas. There are some of the side of viewing the morality in terms of self-interest, social utility, which feels less easy to accept.

    • Replies: @AP
    @Dmitry


    AP defends “Anti-Christ”, or “pagan”, values
     
    The only Orthodox Christian person here defends my arguments.

    But AP doesn’t have this taboo and can throw old vegetables on the people below, from the palace walls.
     
    AP wants to, and does, help the people below. It is an obligation to do so. At the same time, reality is what it is. In our society, formed by Christianity for over a thousand years, values are such that people at the bottom tend to engage in worse behaviors than those who are better off. Unlike in the case of Jesus' time, prosperous people in the Christendom did not come by their wealth through conquest and enslavement, or through taxing widows and poor people. They are not likely to be wicked people. An analogue to the time of Christ might be the post-Soviet world, that could be more applicable.

    AP is the anti-religious* and materialist side of the spectrum....But for people that are spiritual, it’s strange to see people viewing religion in terms of social and political utility, like saying to romantic people that “love is good because it reduced blood pressure”.
     
    I write from this perspective because it is something that can observed. So I once told our former host that it is good from a utilitarian POV to protect the lives of people with Down's syndrome because they help others to be better people and besides that families who do not abort such children tend to have many healthy normal children too; he is not AFAIK a Christian, so it would make no sense to appeal to the Christian idea that all people have inherent value regardless of disability. But both are true.

    It would be silly to say to a romantic person that love is good because it reduces blood pressure, but what about to a non-romantic person? Then it would be appropriate.

    Replies: @Dmitry

    , @RSDB
    @Dmitry

    To be fair to AP, I don't think he would be throwing vegetables at anybody, unless it was a starving vegetarian.

  369. @Wokechoke
    @songbird

    There's going to be a 10-15 million strong metropolis like Moscow on the Eastern European plain (short of a nuclear strike on it, it'll be Moscow playing that role) no matter what happens. That city will require a clear passage for goods into international waters serviced by a warm weather port. That means they have to have Kerch and Sevastopol.

    Kiev maxes out at 3.5 residents and simply isn't suitable for that Megalopolitan role. it'll have to concede Crimea to Russia. even if Russia's population is contracting they will have a capital city of around 10-15 million citizens for the foreseeable future.

    Replies: @songbird

    I agree. Pournelle and Niven’s vision from the ’70s or ’80s of a CoDominion, where the US and USSR formed an alliance to rule the world, may be a little out of date. But that doesn’t mean that Russia will give up Crimea.

    Short of the Poles going all-in and putting boots on the ground (which seems unlikely), hard for me to imagine a rollback to the 1991 borders.

    • Replies: @QCIC
    @songbird

    I think the CoDominium will still work out. The US will have to figure out the Mexican problem. More trials and tribulations will ensure worldwide. A few countries will be glassed. Then presto, Russia and the USA will work on equal terms colonizing the solar system together.

    What's not to like?

    Replies: @QCIC, @songbird

  370. @Ivashka the fool
    Reply to Dmitry from the previous thread.

    RusFed demographics could be already around 110 - 115 million people. Ukrainian might have reached the 35 million territory. In Ukraine, most people would be Slav, but in RusFed Kadyrov has tweeted that Muslims have already reached 25% of the population from less than 10% around a generation ago. Imagine what it would be in a generation if we include the 10 - 15 million migrant workers from Central Asia.

    https://i.pinimg.com/originals/6d/2a/9e/6d2a9e4f3b26c83ab96390193ef719ae.jpg

    Moskvabad and Piterkent much...

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @Dmitry

    Kadyrov has tweeted that Muslims have already reached 25%

    Kadyrov can say many things. It doesn’t mean it is accurate. He is a mafia boss not a statistician. I don’t think is accurate at all. It seems wildly inaccurate.

    Although there is little of accurate data available in Russia, so many speculations cannot be disproved. For example, the census says there are 146 million people in the Russian Federation. But the real number of the population including Crimea, according to demographers – 141 million.

    Immigration flow is also ambiguous. In the last couple years, a large part of the total population of Tajikistan has immigrated to Russia. But whether they want to live in Russia is another question. It’s not Sweden, a large part of them will only be there for a temporary reason.

    In Ukraine, most people would be Slav

    After the war, Ukraine will be in the EU (perhaps in 15 years). A large part of their young population will go to Western Europe, many will choose there and become Swedish, French or Germans. In Ukraine, the population will become more homogenous Ukrainian, as only a small number of people with access to Schengen would want to immigrate there, while the trend of Ukrainian identity is becoming stronger.

    But there will be supervision to reform the legal system, to reduce corruption. This would increase the investment there. There will be investment to develop modern infrastructure in Ukraine. There will be remittances. The economy will develop in a more stable way, as common in all the new EU countries.

    So, their future in EU, will be like a country similar to Romania (if you optimistic) or Bulgaria (probably more realistic). It wouldn’t be a chaotic situation like Lebanon in the long term. In terms of population, Ukrainians are not Latvians.* They have a lot of people,** even if population density will be low.

    *Even Latvians are not Mohicans – a million people is a lot in historical terms. Ancient Sparta had a population of around 25,000 people and it was a superpower in those days.

    • Replies: @AP
    @Dmitry

    Agree with everything but this part:


    So, their future in EU, will be like a country similar to Romania (if you optimistic) or Bulgaria (probably more realistic
     
    Ukrainians are closest culturally, historically, educationally, geographically and genetically (the last is least important) to their Polish neighbors, so Ukraine would most likely follow the Polish path, although it will be 20 or so years behind Poland.

    Ideally Ukraine will return to the February 2022 borders. But the smaller it ends up being, the better off the remaining parts will be.

    Something you might not realize is that although millions have left Ukraine, the safer places in western Ukraine have gotten packed with refugees from eastern Ukraine who do not want to leave Ukraine but don’t want to get bombed. Lviv has about 150,000 additional people since the war started (before the war it’s population had been around 800,000). They are building many new neighborhoods in Lviv:

    https://www.nytimes.com/2022/05/31/arts/lviv-ukraine-refugee-housing.html

    A lot of the IT industry from Kharkiv has moved to Lviv. Some of it will stay there after the war, as will many refugees from areas that Russia has taken, who do not want to live in Russia but in Ukraine (one of my cousins has taken in people from Melitopol in her Lviv flat). In the extremely unlikely event that Kiev were to get occupied l by Russia, there would be a massive outflow of educated nationalistic people, and Lviv would easily top 1 million people with their settlement.

    Uzhhorod near the Hungarian border has seen a 30% increase in its population. Transcarpathia as a whole is now about 1/3 Ukrainian refugee. Many Hungarians (who have dual citizenship) have fled and their places taken by anti-Russian refugees. So the share of ethnic Hungarians in that province has really dropped and it’s becoming a more homogeneous Ukrainian one:

    https://www.hungarianconservative.com/articles/politics/caught-in-the-crossfire-can-transcarpathia-recover/

    Replies: @Dmitry, @Another Polish Perspective

  371. @AP
    @Yahya


    Greeks are literally closer to Turks than just about 99% of people on the planet.
     
    True, but there are peoples closer to Turks than Greeks:

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FZUuorRXEAA1dEm.jpg

    Azeris are the closest, but Kurds, Persians, and peoples of the Caucuses are closer to Turks than are Greeks.

    Pre-Turk Anatolians were a Hellenized, Greek-speaking people who were closer kin genetically to pre-Arab conquest Indo-European peoples like Persians than to Greeks from Greece. The Turkish conquest made them about 15%-20% Asian. One can indeed see faint traces of Asian-ness in some Turkish faces:

    https://i.pinimg.com/originals/bb/58/bd/bb58bd39db21a973e80f1a1ee1e8d384.jpg

    If you google-image "Castizo" (Hispanics of 1/4 Indian descent) you will see faces not unlike Turkish ones.



    ::::::::::::::::::::::::::

    Of course, none of them are close to the Irish.

    Replies: @Wokechoke, @Dmitry, @songbird

    Most Turks look like stereotypically Mediterranean people, sometimes they look like they have East Asian origin and some look like Northern Europeans.

    , none of them are close to the Irish.

    Visually (not culturally) a minority of Irish people could say they are Turkish and people will believe it as there is enough visual overlap. They just need some spray tan.

    You know the story about Alex Baldwin’s wife. She is a white woman from Boston and has English/Irish immigrant ancestry.

    But, being a white woman is unfashionable increasingly for New York, so she was acting Spanish to promote her career. She covered her skin with a lot of spray tank and adds black dye to her hair. All the journalists thought she was Spanish until 2020.

    Unfortunately for her identity change, she has 7 children and none has inherited her “Mediterranean skin”.

    • Replies: @LatW
    @Dmitry

    I know of a Celto-Nordo British coupling where the mother has pitch black hair with hazel eyes and tan skin (could pass for Mediterranean) and the father has dark hair and very pale skin and crystal blue eyes - they had two very fair children, a platinum blond daughter (who retained her platinum blonde hair into adulthood) and a blond boy whose hair turned dark in adulthood (both pale with light blue eyed).

    To me as an N.East Euro, where everyone has the same color pretty much, this is totally impossible to grasp (especially the blond blue eyed gene being so dominant in children). Granted, the father has some Norwegian genes (and mother some ancient Scots - Nordic ones).

    Btw, if you notice, many of those so called "black Irish" have very pale skin. I don't get how the British can be so diverse.

    Replies: @Dmitry

    , @songbird
    @Dmitry


    Visually (not culturally) a minority of Irish people could say they are Turkish and people will believe it as there is enough visual overlap. They just need some spray tan.
     
    Personally, I wouldn't like to try to play a Circassian among the Turks.

    But I have wondered what might happen, if someone faked the national letterhead and applied to have Ireland join the Organization of Turkish States, as an observer (like Hungary), citing a connection to the Galatians.

    Blue-eyed female relative with light brown hair was in Italy, and they thought she was French, which seemed very surprising to me (why not British?), but then I thought of the paler type of French, and thought it was possible. I think there is an Atlantic skull-type.

    Girl to the left of the thumbnail (right of main singer) here is pretty dusky, but, if I had to guess, I would suppose that she was not Irish (or at least not fully):
    https://youtu.be/zxjvNUNXhkU

    , @Wokechoke
    @Dmitry

    Jet black hair, blue eyes and pale skin is a British Isles trait. They also pop out blonde children!

    Replies: @S

  372. @Dmitry
    @AP

    Most Turks look like stereotypically Mediterranean people, sometimes they look like they have East Asian origin and some look like Northern Europeans.


    , none of them are close to the Irish.
     
    Visually (not culturally) a minority of Irish people could say they are Turkish and people will believe it as there is enough visual overlap. They just need some spray tan.

    You know the story about Alex Baldwin's wife. She is a white woman from Boston and has English/Irish immigrant ancestry.

    But, being a white woman is unfashionable increasingly for New York, so she was acting Spanish to promote her career. She covered her skin with a lot of spray tank and adds black dye to her hair. All the journalists thought she was Spanish until 2020.

    Unfortunately for her identity change, she has 7 children and none has inherited her "Mediterranean skin".
    https://www.usmagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/10/Alec-and-Hilaria-Baldwin-Share-1st-Family-Pic-Instagram.jpg?w=1000&quality=55

    Replies: @LatW, @songbird, @Wokechoke

    I know of a Celto-Nordo British coupling where the mother has pitch black hair with hazel eyes and tan skin (could pass for Mediterranean) and the father has dark hair and very pale skin and crystal blue eyes – they had two very fair children, a platinum blond daughter (who retained her platinum blonde hair into adulthood) and a blond boy whose hair turned dark in adulthood (both pale with light blue eyed).

    To me as an N.East Euro, where everyone has the same color pretty much, this is totally impossible to grasp (especially the blond blue eyed gene being so dominant in children). Granted, the father has some Norwegian genes (and mother some ancient Scots – Nordic ones).

    Btw, if you notice, many of those so called “black Irish” have very pale skin. I don’t get how the British can be so diverse.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @LatW

    I used to live in Republic of Ireland. Sure, dark hair is not so uncommon in this region (Ireland is not Finland).

    Also there is diversity terms of how they speak in Ireland. Mostly they have clear English. But there are some which have strong accents (because of different areas) which nobody will able to understand, except people from the same area.

    The main thing is how extrovert, talkative and relaxed they are compared to anywhere in Northern Europe.

    Although the country is well organized and developed, there is some expected consequence of the "Jamaican" attitude to life, a lot of young people are in the side of the street smoking cannabis at 2pm on Monday. It could be because of the colonialism and it reminds a bit of African American culture. When you are a low responsibility in politics and can be punished by the rulers, perhaps a strategy is to talk quickly and know how to relax. And when you don't like your rulers, the concept of duty becomes weaker.


    Btw, if you notice, many of those so called “black Irish” have very pale skin.

     

    This is Irish blood like Jennifer Connelly.

    But it seems like Alec Baldwin's wife has just covered with too much black dye to the hair and fake tan solutions because she wanted to be latino instead of white. She added enough fake tan to become darker than most latino people. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Uui8TfMXgc.

    Trying not to be white is kind of internationally common not only in America though - you know in Russia, people are boasting if they have the non-Russian ancestor. Although it's not determined by skin color (if you found you have an ancestor from England or France, there would be probably even more boasting about this).


    British can be so diverse.

     

    I think Princess Kate and Princess Diana looks like different nationalities (maybe native people vs Norman people).

    And, Prince Charles, Prince Philips and Prince William looks like a third nationality (mafia that was intermarrying across centuries in Central Europe).

    Princess Kate looks almost too local to the island and healthy to be in such an elite family.

    Replies: @Dmitry, @LatW

  373. @Dmitry
    @AP

    Most Turks look like stereotypically Mediterranean people, sometimes they look like they have East Asian origin and some look like Northern Europeans.


    , none of them are close to the Irish.
     
    Visually (not culturally) a minority of Irish people could say they are Turkish and people will believe it as there is enough visual overlap. They just need some spray tan.

    You know the story about Alex Baldwin's wife. She is a white woman from Boston and has English/Irish immigrant ancestry.

    But, being a white woman is unfashionable increasingly for New York, so she was acting Spanish to promote her career. She covered her skin with a lot of spray tank and adds black dye to her hair. All the journalists thought she was Spanish until 2020.

    Unfortunately for her identity change, she has 7 children and none has inherited her "Mediterranean skin".
    https://www.usmagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/10/Alec-and-Hilaria-Baldwin-Share-1st-Family-Pic-Instagram.jpg?w=1000&quality=55

    Replies: @LatW, @songbird, @Wokechoke

    Visually (not culturally) a minority of Irish people could say they are Turkish and people will believe it as there is enough visual overlap. They just need some spray tan.

    Personally, I wouldn’t like to try to play a Circassian among the Turks.

    But I have wondered what might happen, if someone faked the national letterhead and applied to have Ireland join the Organization of Turkish States, as an observer (like Hungary), citing a connection to the Galatians.

    Blue-eyed female relative with light brown hair was in Italy, and they thought she was French, which seemed very surprising to me (why not British?), but then I thought of the paler type of French, and thought it was possible. I think there is an Atlantic skull-type.

    [MORE]

    Girl to the left of the thumbnail (right of main singer) here is pretty dusky, but, if I had to guess, I would suppose that she was not Irish (or at least not fully):

  374. This week’s Epic Game Store [EGS] freebie has an interesting premise: (1)

    Adios is a cinematic first-person game about sticking to a complicated decision.

    You’re a pig farmer in Kansas. It’s October. Cold, crisp mornings are the norm, and you have decided that you’re no longer okay with letting the mob use your pigs to dispose of bodies. When your old friend – a hitman – arrives with his assistant to deliver another body, you finally screw up the courage to tell them that you’re done.

    PEACE 😇
    __________

    (1) https://store.epicgames.com/en-US/p/adios-b378b4

  375. @Dmitry
    @Ivashka the fool


    Kadyrov has tweeted that Muslims have already reached 25%
     
    Kadyrov can say many things. It doesn't mean it is accurate. He is a mafia boss not a statistician. I don't think is accurate at all. It seems wildly inaccurate.

    Although there is little of accurate data available in Russia, so many speculations cannot be disproved. For example, the census says there are 146 million people in the Russian Federation. But the real number of the population including Crimea, according to demographers - 141 million.

    Immigration flow is also ambiguous. In the last couple years, a large part of the total population of Tajikistan has immigrated to Russia. But whether they want to live in Russia is another question. It's not Sweden, a large part of them will only be there for a temporary reason.


    In Ukraine, most people would be Slav

     

    After the war, Ukraine will be in the EU (perhaps in 15 years). A large part of their young population will go to Western Europe, many will choose there and become Swedish, French or Germans. In Ukraine, the population will become more homogenous Ukrainian, as only a small number of people with access to Schengen would want to immigrate there, while the trend of Ukrainian identity is becoming stronger.

    But there will be supervision to reform the legal system, to reduce corruption. This would increase the investment there. There will be investment to develop modern infrastructure in Ukraine. There will be remittances. The economy will develop in a more stable way, as common in all the new EU countries.

    So, their future in EU, will be like a country similar to Romania (if you optimistic) or Bulgaria (probably more realistic). It wouldn't be a chaotic situation like Lebanon in the long term. In terms of population, Ukrainians are not Latvians.* They have a lot of people,** even if population density will be low.

    -

    *Even Latvians are not Mohicans - a million people is a lot in historical terms. Ancient Sparta had a population of around 25,000 people and it was a superpower in those days.

    Replies: @AP

    Agree with everything but this part:

    So, their future in EU, will be like a country similar to Romania (if you optimistic) or Bulgaria (probably more realistic

    Ukrainians are closest culturally, historically, educationally, geographically and genetically (the last is least important) to their Polish neighbors, so Ukraine would most likely follow the Polish path, although it will be 20 or so years behind Poland.

    Ideally Ukraine will return to the February 2022 borders. But the smaller it ends up being, the better off the remaining parts will be.

    Something you might not realize is that although millions have left Ukraine, the safer places in western Ukraine have gotten packed with refugees from eastern Ukraine who do not want to leave Ukraine but don’t want to get bombed. Lviv has about 150,000 additional people since the war started (before the war it’s population had been around 800,000). They are building many new neighborhoods in Lviv:

    https://www.nytimes.com/2022/05/31/arts/lviv-ukraine-refugee-housing.html

    A lot of the IT industry from Kharkiv has moved to Lviv. Some of it will stay there after the war, as will many refugees from areas that Russia has taken, who do not want to live in Russia but in Ukraine (one of my cousins has taken in people from Melitopol in her Lviv flat). In the extremely unlikely event that Kiev were to get occupied l by Russia, there would be a massive outflow of educated nationalistic people, and Lviv would easily top 1 million people with their settlement.

    Uzhhorod near the Hungarian border has seen a 30% increase in its population. Transcarpathia as a whole is now about 1/3 Ukrainian refugee. Many Hungarians (who have dual citizenship) have fled and their places taken by anti-Russian refugees. So the share of ethnic Hungarians in that province has really dropped and it’s becoming a more homogeneous Ukrainian one:

    https://www.hungarianconservative.com/articles/politics/caught-in-the-crossfire-can-transcarpathia-recover/

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @AP


    Ukraine would most likely follow the Polish
     
    Poland is Central Europe and next to Germany. They have been merging to the German economy, which is the most powerful economy in Europe. For example, Volkswagen factories in Poland have more than $6 billion annual revenue.

    Ukraine is Eastern Europe and will be more generally periphery country of EU for those logistics reasons, which would be less centrally integrated to Germany's economy.

    EU also perhaps will have relatively less money for convergence in the next decades compared to 2000-2020 as the UK has exited, which was the second largest economy of the bloc.


    closest culturally, historically, educationally, geographically and genetically (the last is least important) to their Polish neighbors
     
    I agree the last (genetics) is not likely predictive.

    I'm not sure culture personality type is so predictive. But in terms of culture, Poles are different. Ukrainians are similar to Russians. But Poles have a very distinctive national personality, not similar to Russian. Some of their personality is more like stereotypical Germans - they have quite pedantic culture. I wonder if there is a general Central European trend for this?

    In terms of historically, Poland was not part of the Soviet Union or Russian Empire. Although again, I'm not sure this is predictive for the economic future. Estonia is former territory of the Russian Empire and USSR. But Estonia has been one of the more fast converging countries in the EU.


    closest culturally, historically, educationally, geographically and genetically (the last is least important) to their Polish
     
    Bulgaria is an ethnically Southern/Mediterranean country (Balkans). But you know what they say about Bulgaria in Soviet times ("Курица – не птица, Болгария – не заграница"). I'm not sure how true this is, but there is often similarity which is wider than the peoples' hair coloration.

    Although if Ukraine follows Romania attainments in the EU, this would be a very optimistic situation.

    Romania's attainments are the same as countries having the world's largest oil and gas exports and largest industries for diamonds, metals (Russia). Also the same as countries with the world's largest manufacturing (China).

    If Ukraine would go anywhere between Bulgaria and Romania, they will be a very significant optimistic reality.

    https://i.imgur.com/5Y9qJBr.jpg

    Replies: @Mikhail

    , @Another Polish Perspective
    @AP


    Ukrainians are closest culturally, historically, educationally, geographically and genetically (the last is least important) to their Polish neighbors
     
    I wouldn't underestimate the genetic factor. With such a huge influx of Ukrainians (not just after 02.2022, but earlier) Polish folk wisdom has already generated new stereotypes of Ukrainians, obviously by juxtaposition to its own generalizations about Poles, like "Ukrainians are musical and emotional [temperamental]" - obviously these factors have some genetic foundations.

    so Ukraine would most likely follow the Polish path, although it will be 20 or so years behind Poland.
     
    Maybe, maybe not. There is now no natural path of development or natural path of convergence. The larger the Ukraine, the harder will be its way to the West. Out of Soviet Union, only the small Baltic countries managed to open the door to the West, not even Moldavia, maybe because the former were so small...
  376. Sher Singh says:
    @Mikel
    @HeavilyMarbledSteak


    you and Bashi seem to have laid you’re conversation to rest on amicable terms.
     
    I don't know why a religious conversation in the 21st century would have to lead to animosity, at least in this part of the world. People who are sure of their religious beliefs should rather feel pity for someone like me who lost his ability to believe and is unable to recover it. The most probable cause of animosity in such circumstances is the lack of security in those beliefs, I think, which leads to feeling threatened by the simple existence of someone disputing them.

    Besides, I hope not come across as a belligerent atheist, which I'm not. I have no interest whatsoever in convincing anyone about the sad nonexistence of God. On the contrary, I am asking for reasons to believe in it for myself and this inevitably leads to the explanation of my own views, that threaten nodody. In fact, my trying to understand how other people are able to believe means that I am open to the possibility of my being wrong. How many religious people here are open to the possibility that perhaps it is me who is right? Please raise your hands.

    Somehow, I thought that you wouldn't be very sympathetic to attempts to reach God through purely logical arguments, like the one Ivashka presented. That looks very different to the kind of Taoist, experimental approach that you have been defending, if I understood you correctly. Aquinas, by the way, was quite an opposite figure to Lao-Zhe. He was in favor of the death penalty and the extermination of heretics.


    Gradually, however, what was excluded by choice at the outset from the new technique came to be the basis of a new metaphysics.
     
    I don't think that's exactly what happened. Science showed in a very compelling way, much more compelling than pure faith, that many of the things that the Church had been preaching for centuries were false. This inevitably led to doubting all the rest of the religious edifice. Science is inquisitive and skeptical by nature. The clash between science and established religion with immovable dogmas was unavoidable. But I do agree that science cannot totally substitute religion or metaphysics and that is how I think most scientists regard the matter today. Even when Hawkings or Greene reject the idea of God as the cause of the Big Bang, they are implicitly admitting that at that level of scientific inquiry, the existence of phenomena beyond physics is not immediately out of the question.

    Replies: @Sher Singh, @Barbarossa, @HeavilyMarbledSteak, @Coconuts

    How many religious people here are open to the possibility that perhaps it is me who is right? Please raise your hands.

    https://www.manglacharan.com/post/three-paths-to-liberation-and-the-gobind-gita

    Sure, but thought of my own journey & it’s not explainable by religiosity (Brahmanism).
    Only violence,

    Ie went from street thug to professional soldier to Khalsa.

    The innate sense to fight for justice won out over the societal expectation to fight for $$.
    A moral code to fight for also allows pursuit of excellence in Warriorship above a mercenary.

    ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫਤਹਿ

  377. @AP
    @Yahya


    Greeks are literally closer to Turks than just about 99% of people on the planet.
     
    True, but there are peoples closer to Turks than Greeks:

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FZUuorRXEAA1dEm.jpg

    Azeris are the closest, but Kurds, Persians, and peoples of the Caucuses are closer to Turks than are Greeks.

    Pre-Turk Anatolians were a Hellenized, Greek-speaking people who were closer kin genetically to pre-Arab conquest Indo-European peoples like Persians than to Greeks from Greece. The Turkish conquest made them about 15%-20% Asian. One can indeed see faint traces of Asian-ness in some Turkish faces:

    https://i.pinimg.com/originals/bb/58/bd/bb58bd39db21a973e80f1a1ee1e8d384.jpg

    If you google-image "Castizo" (Hispanics of 1/4 Indian descent) you will see faces not unlike Turkish ones.



    ::::::::::::::::::::::::::

    Of course, none of them are close to the Irish.

    Replies: @Wokechoke, @Dmitry, @songbird

    Here’s a component map of Turkey:

    [MORE]

    Not really surprising that one can often perceive a difference between them and Greeks. Boers are generally about ~<5% and one can often perceive a difference in them.

  378. Guide to Kulchur
    “You would have a far-Right government in every country in Europe”

    An item in the Swedish news caught my attention the other day.

    Swedish state TV was in Davos. They took the opportunity to interview Alex Karp, head of tech company Palantir.

    Palantir has developed AI technology for American intelligence agencies and now they’re working with Ukrainian military to counter the Russian invasion.

    What caught my attention was an offhand comment Karp made about a completely different topic…

    After the mandatory cringe COVID fist-bump, he tells the reporter about one of his AI products:

    “This product has stopped major terror attacks multiple times every year… And I believe… One of the things I’m most proud of is that… if those terror attacks had happened, you would have a far-Right government in every single country in Europe… and especially in the [Nordic countries].”

    https://t.me/s/guidetokulchur

  379. @songbird
    @Wokechoke

    I agree. Pournelle and Niven's vision from the '70s or '80s of a CoDominion, where the US and USSR formed an alliance to rule the world, may be a little out of date. But that doesn't mean that Russia will give up Crimea.

    Short of the Poles going all-in and putting boots on the ground (which seems unlikely), hard for me to imagine a rollback to the 1991 borders.

    Replies: @QCIC

    I think the CoDominium will still work out. The US will have to figure out the Mexican problem. More trials and tribulations will ensure worldwide. A few countries will be glassed. Then presto, Russia and the USA will work on equal terms colonizing the solar system together.

    What’s not to like?

    • Replies: @QCIC
    @QCIC

    Replace "ensure" with "ensue".

    , @songbird
    @QCIC


    What’s not to like?
     
    Even monarchist planets for AP.

    I definitely do think that a lot of people are writing Russia off as a civilization way too soon. I mean, like Zeihan is saying that it is going to implode, but he also says that of China and a lot of other countries. Says that it isn't true of the US, which, even if it never goes bang, is displaying increasingly worrying signs - like for instance that recent judicial nominee, not even pretending to know or care about the Constitution.

    I get nostalgic for Cold War culture myself, when the West wasn't obviously ghey (well, maybe putting aside some things) and self-hating.

    And it's instructive in itself how a lot of these sci-fi authors got things very wrong about the future, and how nobody predicted the fall of the Berlin Wall. Think it is safe to say that it is hard for anyone to predict too far out. Wasn't too long ago that it seemed like Russia and the US were going to be good friends.

    Replies: @S

  380. @Barbarossa
    @AP

    I'm going to give this one more shot to get at the heart of the matter. Some of the points that I'd like to make in regards to the poor and sinfulness can perhaps be best communicated via a personal anecdote.

    A couple years ago, on my way to a jobsite I kept driving past a homeless guy who was set up on the side of the road pan-handling. I brought him some food one day and had a bit of a conversation with him. He seemed like a harmless enough guy, probably mid-60's with a pretty fit and wiry build. A couple days later I decided to stop again and this time I offered him some work and a space to stay at my shop. He agreed and loaded his stuff into my big van for the ride back to my workshop. I set him up in my office with a futon, use of the microwave etc. and the plan for him to work on painting some of my barn the next day.

    The next day came and he procrastinated on really doing any work. Instead, he set up his chair outside the shop and worked on a seemingly endless supply of Keystone Light. He affable enough though ill at ease and finally asked to go back to where I picked him up from. So the next day as I made my way to the job-site I dropped him off supplied with a few basics and my phone number if he changed his mind.

    While driving with him he talked some about his past and he just seemed like a man who had been broken by the world. Unsuccessful in marriage, alcoholic, and unskilled in any particular trade, he found himself gradually falling a little further until he had nothing and no one left, settling for the easy solutions of mobility and cheap beer.

    A couple things stuck in my mind about the whole encounter, which hold true for most other interactions I've had with homeless people. One was his evident discomfort with being treated as a man, and not just an object of charity. He had an almost animal undercurrent of distrust or apprehension. In trying to treat him with some dignity it seemed like it was too uncomfortable for him.

    I really believe that a part of him truly wanted to take me up on my offer and that when he got into my van he really intended to do that work. However, when the time came to take that action it seemed like he was paralyzed by fear. Part of him could envision a different path, but he found himself unable or unwilling to push past that fear and give it a go. In the end it was too much of a difficult prospect and he could only revert to what he knew and was comfortable with.

    Was the man socially dysfunctional and self destructive? Undeniably yes. I have an extremely hard time saying that he was really a sinful man though. Sin's seriousness is largely contingent upon intent and awareness. In John 9:40-41 Jesus spells this out.


    Some of the Pharisees who were with Him heard this, and they asked Him, “Are we blind too?” “If you were blind,” Jesus replied, “you would not be guilty of sin. But since you claim you can see, your guilt remains.”
     
    That homeless man seemed to me one who was blind. I truly think he was really doing the best that he could, given what he could muster within himself, but that life and whatever his circumstances had been had beaten him down so far that the prospect of change or taking me up on my offer was cripplingly petrifying. So, I take issue with judging that man or others like him of some empirical measure of sinfulness. We just don't know that, we are not God, and we are explicitly instructed against this type of yardstick measurement. In the end I felt as though that man was worthy of my sympathy and my aid, but that I couldn't find in myself to judge him. I just felt rather sad for him.

    So, I think if you want to make a discussion the social utility (or lack of) of homeless populations, the differences in IQ correlated to lack of self-control in homeless populations, or any number of similar angles then I think you can use the logical framework that you have adopted. As soon as you bring sin and associated ideas of relative spiritual worthiness into the equation then I react strongly to it as I see your empirical approach as being not only unapplicable, but also as RSDB says, spiritually dangerous.

    I would be more likely to see as morally culpable the people at the top who have systematically dismantled our moral and ethical frameworks which provided certain behavioral and social guardrails which may have helped someone like that maintain a healthier path in life.

    Replies: @Barbarossa, @AP, @HeavilyMarbledSteak

    You are a very good man who in this case has done a very good deed.

    Was the man socially dysfunctional and self destructive? Undeniably yes. I have an extremely hard time saying that he was really a sinful man though. Sin’s seriousness is largely contingent upon intent and awareness.

    The man you described was probably aware that he was deceiving the people from whom he was panhandling – they were assuming he would spend it on food or shelter, not at the nearby liquor store. And he was probably aware that he was harming his body with his actions.

    This does not make him a bad person, nor diminish his worth as a person. The guy is basically harmless to others, of course. He probably even does a favor to the people whom he deceives – they feel good about giving money because they think they are feeding someone with it, even though they are actually giving money to a liquor store for the purpose of poisoning another human being (or do a drug dealer for the same purpose).

    But he is doing something wrong and ought to be helped.

    Through work I’ve spoken at length to about four people who panhandle with those signs near highway exit intersections (that I know of). In every case they say that they wait out there until they have enough to buy a bottle of liquor, then their “workday” is done and they “party.” Food is often gotten for free outside restaurants, and they know where to do go for free food at church kitchens. They generally don’t use money on food, but on alcohol or drugs.

    As soon as you bring sin and associated ideas of relative spiritual worthiness

    AaronB brought it into the equation by claiming that the homeless were more virtuous than the working people who marry and have families; I pointed out that they were more likely to engage in sinful behavior and supported my claim by empirical evidence of sinful behavior.

    but also as RSDB says, spiritually dangerous

    It seems to be spiritually dangerous for a lot of people to support the removal of what you describe as guardrails, and to promote behaviors that involve harming oneself and others. That is, to claim that sins are virtues and that virtues are hypocrisy or controlling behaviors.

    • Replies: @Barbarossa
    @AP

    Thanks for the kind words, but I don't think that I really did much for the guy. Hopefully he found a better way at some point. I feel a bit embarrassed by my recounting of the experience. Hopefully it didn't come across as grandstanding or fishing for praise.


    It seems to be spiritually dangerous for a lot of people to support the removal of what you describe as guardrails, and to promote behaviors that involve harming oneself and others. That is, to claim that sins are virtues and that virtues are hypocrisy or controlling behaviors.
     
    We can heartily agree on that.

    In the end, I guess I've made all the points I can on the matter and so will let it lie. Whatever the causes, hopefully we can be made of service to help the people in these situations that come across our paths.

    Replies: @RSDB

  381. @QCIC
    @songbird

    I think the CoDominium will still work out. The US will have to figure out the Mexican problem. More trials and tribulations will ensure worldwide. A few countries will be glassed. Then presto, Russia and the USA will work on equal terms colonizing the solar system together.

    What's not to like?

    Replies: @QCIC, @songbird

    Replace “ensure” with “ensue”.

  382. @Dmitry
    @Ivashka the fool


    AB and Dima is not theological, but social and psychological.
     
    Trigger for the discussion about homeless people in America (i.e. social and psychological), but the points I was saying to AP after are just the objective facts about the religion. If someone writes the opposite of the mainstream teaching in e.g. catechism of the Catholic church.

    That is the discussion begins more subjectively. But the parts in the last few posts is objective.


    and also use Scripture to justify their take on these.
     
    Scripture and mainstream interpretation says the opposite of those takes. It doesn't mean the takes are incorrect. But there is labeling - you know, there are regulations about this in areas like the food industry. In this forum, it's a kind of rhetorical game, where I just skip reading those parts of his posts where there is incorrect labeling, as it's not where the interesting content is (although AP has interesting point of view of the world, which is unusual and individual).

    defend “conservative values”, and sometimes use religious justifications to uphold these. They being younger and somewhat “Romantic” (to use Dima’s vocabulary), defend more “progressive social norms”
     
    AP defends "Anti-Christ", or "pagan", values, which is socially taboo to say publicly in Europe unless you are Hindu, because of the thousand year of Christian programming "this is not our way".

    So, people can believe rich are better than poor, but they would feel a bit self-conscious to say publicly, because there is the religious programming, which continues also in secular culture. But AP doesn't have this taboo and can throw old vegetables on the people below, from the palace walls.

    He has right for his view. Maybe he is correct and others incorrect. Maybe throwing vegetables is the valid behavior. Perhaps, religion is only social utility. If Mormons are socially useful, then perhaps we shouldn't criticize their belief. Those pagan value system include both happy/optimistic and dark/gloomy side. It's not reduced to conservative/progressive. In some areas, it can be more tolerant (e.g. his view about Mormons is more progressive than my view), in other areas it can be less progressive (e.g. in terms of redistribution).

    In the past, AP was usually focusing more on the happy/optimistic side of his values. After February, you can see he includes more of the dark/gloomy side, probably because the world events. This is interesting, because there is such dark and light side in any of the values, but the dark and light side will be in different areas. There are some of the side of viewing the morality in terms of self-interest, social utility, which feels less easy to accept.

    Replies: @AP, @RSDB

    AP defends “Anti-Christ”, or “pagan”, values

    The only Orthodox Christian person here defends my arguments.

    But AP doesn’t have this taboo and can throw old vegetables on the people below, from the palace walls.

    AP wants to, and does, help the people below. It is an obligation to do so. At the same time, reality is what it is. In our society, formed by Christianity for over a thousand years, values are such that people at the bottom tend to engage in worse behaviors than those who are better off. Unlike in the case of Jesus’ time, prosperous people in the Christendom did not come by their wealth through conquest and enslavement, or through taxing widows and poor people. They are not likely to be wicked people. An analogue to the time of Christ might be the post-Soviet world, that could be more applicable.

    AP is the anti-religious* and materialist side of the spectrum….But for people that are spiritual, it’s strange to see people viewing religion in terms of social and political utility, like saying to romantic people that “love is good because it reduced blood pressure”.

    I write from this perspective because it is something that can observed. So I once told our former host that it is good from a utilitarian POV to protect the lives of people with Down’s syndrome because they help others to be better people and besides that families who do not abort such children tend to have many healthy normal children too; he is not AFAIK a Christian, so it would make no sense to appeal to the Christian idea that all people have inherent value regardless of disability. But both are true.

    It would be silly to say to a romantic person that love is good because it reduces blood pressure, but what about to a non-romantic person? Then it would be appropriate.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @AP


    people at the bottom tend to engage in worse behaviors than those who are better off. Unlike in the case of Jesus’ time, prosperous people in the Christendom did not come by their wealth through conquest and enslavement, or through taxing widows and poor people. They are not likely to be wicked
     
    This is your point of view and you don't have to justify it by giving the complicated historical maneuver to give it wrong label. It's possibly true, possibly false, like any view, depending on evidence.

    But it is the opposite of the Catholic church and also opposite of what Church fathers are writing. In their view, we don't live in the time after the Second Coming. And in their teaching, pride is the first of capital sins.

    https://i.imgur.com/HZXS6hP.jpg

    https://i.imgur.com/boxeX2o.jpg

    And in their view, "failing to meet the needs" of the poor and weak is second reason for going to hell, after hate and murder.

    https://i.imgur.com/vKGcJ76.jpg


    many healthy normal children too; he is not AFAIK a Christian, so it would make no sense to appeal to the Christian idea that all people have inherent value regardless of disability. But both are true

     

    I don't understand this. Really, any normal people don't think like this, as they have morality and concepts like compassion, as the mainstream in our culture. Trying to justify in this way, looks like a discussion of psychopaths without internal morality - "Don't kill the children, because I found some justifications that they will be helpful for our political side".

    In your posts, you writer morality from a view as reducible to social utility. To be honest, this is one of the distinguishable features where you know "this is a post by AP", when you see writing about morality as something "useful".

    However, this is not real morality, that has to be based from internal compassion or duty.

    For example, you write "fear an inevitability or high likelihood of eternal Hell, atheism would conveniently calm such a fear". (Actually, atheism correlates with lower crimes, but this is not for this discussion).

    So, you believe it is good to promote the hypothetical punishment and reward of religion, so this will be able to reduce crime and socially useful behavior.

    If you control an intelligent rat in the Skinner box that understands language. Instead of using electric shock to control its behavior, you talk to the rat about the hypothetical electric shock it will have when it exits the box. So, you believe the rat will behave in the way which you desire, because it now believes there will be an electric shock when it exits the box (i.e. after life).

    This is not morality, it is the rat's selfish behavior based on hypothetical view of punishment and reward in the after life, as a rat in any box.

    But morality is the idea that you do the right things, because it is the right things, not because of consequences (electric shocks, whether in this life, or after life). If it was based in consequences (i.e. to go to heaven), then it would just be another kind of selfish behavior. This view was true also in Ancient Greece and earlier times.

    Morality is unselfish behavior. A true moral behavior, is when they do the moral behavior, even though it has negative consequences for the person (whether in this life or even in hypothetical after life).


    -

    Although there is a problem in all religions where they sometimes promote their morality, by giving the theory of the electric shock in this life or after life. This is kind of selfish behavior, even if the positive consequence will be in after life.

    Morality is based from not selfish beliefs ("what will happen to me in this life or after life"), but from the internal compassion, duty, etc.

    In the Christian writing there is some understanding of this problem, in the discussion of spirit of the law vs following the law. Jesus says the right hand can't know what the left hand is doing, when you give to the poor. Jesus says that looking at a woman with lust, is adultery (unlike, in the less strict Judaism, adultery is only an act, not the thought).

    Replies: @Coconuts, @AP

  383. @QCIC
    @songbird

    I think the CoDominium will still work out. The US will have to figure out the Mexican problem. More trials and tribulations will ensure worldwide. A few countries will be glassed. Then presto, Russia and the USA will work on equal terms colonizing the solar system together.

    What's not to like?

    Replies: @QCIC, @songbird

    What’s not to like?

    Even monarchist planets for AP.

    [MORE]

    I definitely do think that a lot of people are writing Russia off as a civilization way too soon. I mean, like Zeihan is saying that it is going to implode, but he also says that of China and a lot of other countries. Says that it isn’t true of the US, which, even if it never goes bang, is displaying increasingly worrying signs – like for instance that recent judicial nominee, not even pretending to know or care about the Constitution.

    I get nostalgic for Cold War culture myself, when the West wasn’t obviously ghey (well, maybe putting aside some things) and self-hating.

    And it’s instructive in itself how a lot of these sci-fi authors got things very wrong about the future, and how nobody predicted the fall of the Berlin Wall. Think it is safe to say that it is hard for anyone to predict too far out. Wasn’t too long ago that it seemed like Russia and the US were going to be good friends.

    • Replies: @S
    @songbird


    And it’s instructive in itself how a lot of these sci-fi authors got things very wrong about the future, and how nobody predicted the fall of the Berlin Wall.
     
    Kubrick in his 1968 film 2001; A Space Odyssey seems to hint that there had been a rapprochement between the East and West in the future, ie there is no mention of Communism, though the fate of the Berlin Wall is not specifically addressed.


    https://youtu.be/-fHMvdLiqk8

    Replies: @songbird

  384. @RSDB
    @AP


    why to you, it does not seem safe to do so?
     
    Fair enough.

    The danger lies in the frivolity of the exercise. When you confess your sins each week or whenever as much as possible by kind and number, you could just as easily draw up a running chart showing your change in total sinfulness from week to week or year to year (do you do this?); most people including me would consider that absurd, but it might at least have a laudable object and you have a right to be interested in the state of your own soul.

    I never heard of any recommendation for the examination of conscience that involved giving oneself a total sinfulness score on a scale of 1 to 100 but one might be out there, although I doubt it.

    When you do the same with other people for the amusement of comparison or to make some point online, you are concerning yourself with something that is none of your concern, and doing it for an entirely frivolous object. That you are doing it with an extremely leaky method, to say the least, is almost an afterthought, but it doesn't help.

    Do not keep arguing on here about this. Take these propositions to your priest. As I said, if you do that, if you like I will take these propositions to a sociologist as sociological questions, although they are not questions any sociologist would take seriously.

    Replies: @AP

    The context of the discussion was another poster’s belief that our Christian society is bad and ought to be dismantled and that people such as the homeless are like the early saints – more virtuous and Christlike because they reject the social system in which they live. It is better to be more like them and awful to want to help them to change.

    I don’t think it is frivolous to challenge such a claim, to oppose this nihilistic post-modernism that denigrates virtues and applauds vice.

    So I challenged it by pointing out that our society is very different than the one in Christ’s time – our prosperous and middle classes and our homeless “rebels” are very different from the non-poor and poor of Christ’s time.*

    And I supported my claim by describing measurable behaviors.

    *In our Christian world the well off and middle classes came by their money through work and they give generously to the poor (privately, plus through taxes they have chosen through elected government) and often to the Church, whereas in Christ’s time they came by their wealth through conquest, enslavement, or parasitic tax collection and viewed the poor as not being their concern.

    • Replies: @RSDB
    @AP

    Please follow my request to you, merely as a favor to me if that makes it easier. It is not the kind of thing that takes much time and I can't think of any possible negative consequences, and it is probably better than to presume that the Church has nothing to say on a moral issue or that a question involving the state of other people's souls is not a moral issue.


    Perhaps you have done this already, and, if so, thank you.

    As far as what you are saying to other people, I think you are saying something that makes a lot of sense, as I said to Mikel earlier:


    I think I know what AP is getting at, which is that in cases of alcoholism etc. one must admit fault in order to improve rather than blaming society, even if “society” is partly to blame, and it’s not fair to the sufferer either to deny him agency or to suggest that it is better for him not to change at all.
     
    Probably you would prefer it put more strongly than that.

    It is only because I respect you considerably from what little I know of you, that I am making this suggestion at all. I wouldn't make this recommendation to other parties involved who have also said some egregious things, probably far more egregious things in fact, because you're a Christian who respects the "guardrails and structures of organized religion" and they aren't. Although I think I might drop a note about calling you "unspiritual" which isn't fair even on natural terms.
  385. Must Watch PV [MORE]

    Project Veritas
    @Project_Veritas
    SHOCKING: @Pfizer Director Physically Assaults @JamesOKeefeIII & Veritas Staff; Destroys iPad Showing Undercover Recordings About “Mutating” Covid Virus; NYPD RESPONDS!

    “I’m just someone who’s working in a company that’s trying to literally help the public.”

    “You fu*ked up!”

    The Leftoids who praise BLM, BDS, and Antifa sure get worked up when their tactics are used against them.

    PEACE 😇

    [MORE]

    • Replies: @A123
    @A123

    ADDENDUM

    The reply chain on the tweet is priceless.

     
    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FncPZSoXwAEI7kW.jpg
     

    It does not get any better than that.

    PEACE 😇

    Replies: @songbird

    , @Barbarossa
    @A123

    What was the point of that video? I just watched 9+ minutes of a pathetic dude freaking out with 0.2 seconds of him saying...something about Covid virus mutating. If there was a there there, I sure didn't see it! Did I blink at the wrong point?

    I haven't paid that much attention to Project Veritas previously but if this representative of their oeuvre than they probably are just click bait.

    Supporting context, please?

    Replies: @Emil Nikola Richard

  386. @A123
    Must Watch PV [MORE]

    Project Veritas
    @Project_Veritas
    SHOCKING: @Pfizer Director Physically Assaults @JamesOKeefeIII & Veritas Staff; Destroys iPad Showing Undercover Recordings About “Mutating” Covid Virus; NYPD RESPONDS!

    “I’m just someone who’s working in a company that’s trying to literally help the public.”

    “You fu*ked up!”
     
    The Leftoids who praise BLM, BDS, and Antifa sure get worked up when their tactics are used against them.

    PEACE 😇



    https://twitter.com/Project_Veritas/status/1618737936920633344?s=20

    Replies: @A123, @Barbarossa

    ADDENDUM

    The reply chain on the tweet is priceless.

     

     

    It does not get any better than that.

    PEACE 😇

    • Replies: @songbird
    @A123

    High probability that the West's embrace of gays has made corporate espionage easier.

    Replies: @A123

  387. @Dmitry
    @AP

    Most Turks look like stereotypically Mediterranean people, sometimes they look like they have East Asian origin and some look like Northern Europeans.


    , none of them are close to the Irish.
     
    Visually (not culturally) a minority of Irish people could say they are Turkish and people will believe it as there is enough visual overlap. They just need some spray tan.

    You know the story about Alex Baldwin's wife. She is a white woman from Boston and has English/Irish immigrant ancestry.

    But, being a white woman is unfashionable increasingly for New York, so she was acting Spanish to promote her career. She covered her skin with a lot of spray tank and adds black dye to her hair. All the journalists thought she was Spanish until 2020.

    Unfortunately for her identity change, she has 7 children and none has inherited her "Mediterranean skin".
    https://www.usmagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/10/Alec-and-Hilaria-Baldwin-Share-1st-Family-Pic-Instagram.jpg?w=1000&quality=55

    Replies: @LatW, @songbird, @Wokechoke

    Jet black hair, blue eyes and pale skin is a British Isles trait. They also pop out blonde children!

    • Replies: @S
    @Wokechoke


    Jet black hair, blue eyes and pale skin is a British Isles trait.
     
    Virginia Maskell (below) comes to mind, though I'm not sure about the blue eyes. And then there's Elizabeth Taylor, though of American parentage


    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/3c/Virginia_Maskell.jpg

  388. tap the drum and jingle the jangly xylophone etc…The Big Cats are back in the Donbass.

    Auf der Heide blüht ein kleines Blümelein
    Und das heißt
    Erika
    Heiß von hunderttausend kleinen Bienelein
    Wird umschwärmt
    Erika
    Denn ihr Herz ist voller Süßigkeit
    Zarter Duft entströmt dem Blütenkleid
    Auf der Heide blüht ein kleines Blümelein
    Und das heißt
    Erika
    In der Heimat wohnt ein blondes Mägdelein
    Und das heißt
    Erika
    Dieses Mädel ist mein treues Schätzelein
    Und mein Glück
    Erika
    Wenn das Heidekraut rot-lila blüht
    Singe ich zum Gruß ihr dieses Lied
    Auf der Heide blüht ein kleines Blümelein
    Und das heißt
    Erika
    In mein’m Kämmerlein blüht auch ein Blümelein
    Und das heißt
    Erika
    Schon beim Morgengrau’n sowie beim Dämmerschein
    Schaut’s mich an
    Erika
    Und dann ist es mir, als spräch’ es laut
    “Denkst du auch an deine kleine Braut?”
    In der Heimat weint um dich ein Mägdelein
    Und das heißt
    Erika

  389. “Boys too man boys”

    “First fight will make them men!”

    “Back in the day we would live together for six months before going off into combat…”

    “they’ll die for you.”

  390. @A123
    @A123

    ADDENDUM

    The reply chain on the tweet is priceless.

     
    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FncPZSoXwAEI7kW.jpg
     

    It does not get any better than that.

    PEACE 😇

    Replies: @songbird

    High probability that the West’s embrace of gays has made corporate espionage easier.

    • Replies: @A123
    @songbird


    High probability that the West’s embrace of gays has made corporate espionage easier.
     
    Extorting someone with accepted, even rewarded, behaviour cannot be be a liability Those who are secretly heterosexual might be at risk...

    One can imagine two het guys getting together to watch football reporting to the corporation that they are engaging in an illicit liaison behind their wives' backs.

    PEACE 😇

    Replies: @songbird, @Emil Nikola Richard

  391. @songbird
    @A123

    High probability that the West's embrace of gays has made corporate espionage easier.

    Replies: @A123

    High probability that the West’s embrace of gays has made corporate espionage easier.

    Extorting someone with accepted, even rewarded, behaviour cannot be be a liability Those who are secretly heterosexual might be at risk…

    One can imagine two het guys getting together to watch football reporting to the corporation that they are engaging in an illicit liaison behind their wives’ backs.

    PEACE 😇

    • Replies: @songbird
    @A123


    Those who are secretly heterosexual might be at risk…
     
    LOL. Though, I honestly suspect that gays are more effusive when you put the right bait in front of them. (Think of it roughly like a female brain in the body of a man) Could be wrong, but also what is significantly different is that they are a protected class, and probably rightly believe they can get away with more. Plus don't have the same pressures of not disgracing their family, or losing their income.

    Not to mention, a regular guy might fear that he'd be me-tooed, if he met alone with some hot woman.

    Replies: @LondonBob

    , @Emil Nikola Richard
    @A123

    Getting together with another guy to watch a football game is not gay?

    Replies: @A123

  392. @A123
    @songbird


    High probability that the West’s embrace of gays has made corporate espionage easier.
     
    Extorting someone with accepted, even rewarded, behaviour cannot be be a liability Those who are secretly heterosexual might be at risk...

    One can imagine two het guys getting together to watch football reporting to the corporation that they are engaging in an illicit liaison behind their wives' backs.

    PEACE 😇

    Replies: @songbird, @Emil Nikola Richard

    Those who are secretly heterosexual might be at risk…

    LOL. Though, I honestly suspect that gays are more effusive when you put the right bait in front of them. (Think of it roughly like a female brain in the body of a man) Could be wrong, but also what is significantly different is that they are a protected class, and probably rightly believe they can get away with more. Plus don’t have the same pressures of not disgracing their family, or losing their income.

    Not to mention, a regular guy might fear that he’d be me-tooed, if he met alone with some hot woman.

    • Replies: @LondonBob
    @songbird

    A lot to be said for the theory of the female egg and male egg in the womb merging with female traits remaining.

    Of course it is also a mental illness.

    https://kirkegaard.substack.com/p/homosexuality-is-a-mental-illness

    Replies: @Emil Nikola Richard

  393. @Mikel
    @HeavilyMarbledSteak


    you and Bashi seem to have laid you’re conversation to rest on amicable terms.
     
    I don't know why a religious conversation in the 21st century would have to lead to animosity, at least in this part of the world. People who are sure of their religious beliefs should rather feel pity for someone like me who lost his ability to believe and is unable to recover it. The most probable cause of animosity in such circumstances is the lack of security in those beliefs, I think, which leads to feeling threatened by the simple existence of someone disputing them.

    Besides, I hope not come across as a belligerent atheist, which I'm not. I have no interest whatsoever in convincing anyone about the sad nonexistence of God. On the contrary, I am asking for reasons to believe in it for myself and this inevitably leads to the explanation of my own views, that threaten nodody. In fact, my trying to understand how other people are able to believe means that I am open to the possibility of my being wrong. How many religious people here are open to the possibility that perhaps it is me who is right? Please raise your hands.

    Somehow, I thought that you wouldn't be very sympathetic to attempts to reach God through purely logical arguments, like the one Ivashka presented. That looks very different to the kind of Taoist, experimental approach that you have been defending, if I understood you correctly. Aquinas, by the way, was quite an opposite figure to Lao-Zhe. He was in favor of the death penalty and the extermination of heretics.


    Gradually, however, what was excluded by choice at the outset from the new technique came to be the basis of a new metaphysics.
     
    I don't think that's exactly what happened. Science showed in a very compelling way, much more compelling than pure faith, that many of the things that the Church had been preaching for centuries were false. This inevitably led to doubting all the rest of the religious edifice. Science is inquisitive and skeptical by nature. The clash between science and established religion with immovable dogmas was unavoidable. But I do agree that science cannot totally substitute religion or metaphysics and that is how I think most scientists regard the matter today. Even when Hawkings or Greene reject the idea of God as the cause of the Big Bang, they are implicitly admitting that at that level of scientific inquiry, the existence of phenomena beyond physics is not immediately out of the question.

    Replies: @Sher Singh, @Barbarossa, @HeavilyMarbledSteak, @Coconuts

    Don’t worry, you don’t come across as a militant atheist at all. I would characterize you as an honest skeptic. I think it’s an honorable position and I would only think less of you if you feigned a faith that you do not possess. Perhaps some day you will find that faith finds you or perhaps not, either way if you keep an open mind it’s all that can be asked.

    Personally, I seem to find myself incapable of not having faith. This is due to my own experiences in life which are rather worthless in convincing another person one way or another, especially in a venue like this.

    To answer your question I do absolutely admit the possibility that you are correct about God. In life their is rarely any empirical certainty on one’s beliefs. Perhaps I’m deluded, or insane, or have leapt to wrong conclusions. It’s impossible to dismiss the possibility since somebody has to be wrong in this life. I would be inclined to say that anyone of faith who says that they do not also doubt is being disingenuous.

    But at the same time I’m not sure that genuine faith could exist without that occasional doubt. Those doubts cause one to examine their faith critically and a failure or fear to do so would cause faith to become a parody of itself; a mere convention rather than a search for ultimate truth.

    • Thanks: Mikel
  394. @Dmitry
    @Ivashka the fool


    AB and Dima is not theological, but social and psychological.
     
    Trigger for the discussion about homeless people in America (i.e. social and psychological), but the points I was saying to AP after are just the objective facts about the religion. If someone writes the opposite of the mainstream teaching in e.g. catechism of the Catholic church.

    That is the discussion begins more subjectively. But the parts in the last few posts is objective.


    and also use Scripture to justify their take on these.
     
    Scripture and mainstream interpretation says the opposite of those takes. It doesn't mean the takes are incorrect. But there is labeling - you know, there are regulations about this in areas like the food industry. In this forum, it's a kind of rhetorical game, where I just skip reading those parts of his posts where there is incorrect labeling, as it's not where the interesting content is (although AP has interesting point of view of the world, which is unusual and individual).

    defend “conservative values”, and sometimes use religious justifications to uphold these. They being younger and somewhat “Romantic” (to use Dima’s vocabulary), defend more “progressive social norms”
     
    AP defends "Anti-Christ", or "pagan", values, which is socially taboo to say publicly in Europe unless you are Hindu, because of the thousand year of Christian programming "this is not our way".

    So, people can believe rich are better than poor, but they would feel a bit self-conscious to say publicly, because there is the religious programming, which continues also in secular culture. But AP doesn't have this taboo and can throw old vegetables on the people below, from the palace walls.

    He has right for his view. Maybe he is correct and others incorrect. Maybe throwing vegetables is the valid behavior. Perhaps, religion is only social utility. If Mormons are socially useful, then perhaps we shouldn't criticize their belief. Those pagan value system include both happy/optimistic and dark/gloomy side. It's not reduced to conservative/progressive. In some areas, it can be more tolerant (e.g. his view about Mormons is more progressive than my view), in other areas it can be less progressive (e.g. in terms of redistribution).

    In the past, AP was usually focusing more on the happy/optimistic side of his values. After February, you can see he includes more of the dark/gloomy side, probably because the world events. This is interesting, because there is such dark and light side in any of the values, but the dark and light side will be in different areas. There are some of the side of viewing the morality in terms of self-interest, social utility, which feels less easy to accept.

    Replies: @AP, @RSDB

    To be fair to AP, I don’t think he would be throwing vegetables at anybody, unless it was a starving vegetarian.

    • LOL: Barbarossa
  395. @AP
    @Barbarossa

    You are a very good man who in this case has done a very good deed.


    Was the man socially dysfunctional and self destructive? Undeniably yes. I have an extremely hard time saying that he was really a sinful man though. Sin’s seriousness is largely contingent upon intent and awareness.
     
    The man you described was probably aware that he was deceiving the people from whom he was panhandling - they were assuming he would spend it on food or shelter, not at the nearby liquor store. And he was probably aware that he was harming his body with his actions.

    This does not make him a bad person, nor diminish his worth as a person. The guy is basically harmless to others, of course. He probably even does a favor to the people whom he deceives - they feel good about giving money because they think they are feeding someone with it, even though they are actually giving money to a liquor store for the purpose of poisoning another human being (or do a drug dealer for the same purpose).

    But he is doing something wrong and ought to be helped.

    Through work I've spoken at length to about four people who panhandle with those signs near highway exit intersections (that I know of). In every case they say that they wait out there until they have enough to buy a bottle of liquor, then their "workday" is done and they "party." Food is often gotten for free outside restaurants, and they know where to do go for free food at church kitchens. They generally don't use money on food, but on alcohol or drugs.


    As soon as you bring sin and associated ideas of relative spiritual worthiness
     
    AaronB brought it into the equation by claiming that the homeless were more virtuous than the working people who marry and have families; I pointed out that they were more likely to engage in sinful behavior and supported my claim by empirical evidence of sinful behavior.

    but also as RSDB says, spiritually dangerous
     
    It seems to be spiritually dangerous for a lot of people to support the removal of what you describe as guardrails, and to promote behaviors that involve harming oneself and others. That is, to claim that sins are virtues and that virtues are hypocrisy or controlling behaviors.

    Replies: @Barbarossa

    Thanks for the kind words, but I don’t think that I really did much for the guy. Hopefully he found a better way at some point. I feel a bit embarrassed by my recounting of the experience. Hopefully it didn’t come across as grandstanding or fishing for praise.

    It seems to be spiritually dangerous for a lot of people to support the removal of what you describe as guardrails, and to promote behaviors that involve harming oneself and others. That is, to claim that sins are virtues and that virtues are hypocrisy or controlling behaviors.

    We can heartily agree on that.

    In the end, I guess I’ve made all the points I can on the matter and so will let it lie. Whatever the causes, hopefully we can be made of service to help the people in these situations that come across our paths.

    • Replies: @RSDB
    @Barbarossa


    Hopefully it didn’t come across as grandstanding or fishing for praise.
     
    No.

    In the end, I guess I’ve made all the points I can on the matter and so will let it lie. Whatever the causes, hopefully we can be made of service to help the people in these situations that come across our paths.

     

    Thank you.


    By the way, I was reminded in this conversation of a book which brings together some of these strands we have been talking about-- Catholicism, homelessness, aristocracy, saintliness, degradation.

    This is a novel called None Other Gods by the English priest Robert Hugh Benson.

    It is pretty slow going until the Major and Gertie appear but after that-- well, I at least found it interesting, especially as it is at least partly an attempt to examine what holiness is. I think you might also find it so and maybe even AP as well, although both of you are busy people without a lot of time for novels.

    I would be surprised though (but pleasantly surprised) if our non-Christian readers found much to admire in it.

    Another novel that our non-Christian friends might find more congenial is Christ Recrucified by Nikos Kazantzakis, which is sometimes called in English The Greek Passion. Kazantzakis is a very forceful writer and his The Last Temptation of Christ ran into considerable opposition from both Catholic and Orthodox, but I never heard of that kind of controversy over Christ Recrucified.
  396. Sher Singh says:

    Karlin Discord niggas be like:

    [MORE]

    “Politics is just violence” – rant in response

    Response:

    Never actually called any women whores. Just said it’s a larp to call yourself Aryan Indo-European & not follow the religion(s). The response is just Atheist Cultural Christianity/Wignattery.

    Noticed there was still active discussion about me almost a month after my ban.
    Went in there to find screenshots & searched my name.
    Not going to post the worst one

    🤷‍♀️ ⚔️

    • LOL: Barbarossa
    • Replies: @songbird
    @Sher Singh

    Wonder if there would be any advantage in creating a based programming language called "NIG" or "NIG++".

    Right now, the closest thing seems some of Yandex's python scripts:
    https://twitter.com/AnonOpsSE/status/1619011875290628096?s=20&t=g2fqMr95II8k9hqxBirkJQ

  397. @Mikel
    @HeavilyMarbledSteak


    you and Bashi seem to have laid you’re conversation to rest on amicable terms.
     
    I don't know why a religious conversation in the 21st century would have to lead to animosity, at least in this part of the world. People who are sure of their religious beliefs should rather feel pity for someone like me who lost his ability to believe and is unable to recover it. The most probable cause of animosity in such circumstances is the lack of security in those beliefs, I think, which leads to feeling threatened by the simple existence of someone disputing them.

    Besides, I hope not come across as a belligerent atheist, which I'm not. I have no interest whatsoever in convincing anyone about the sad nonexistence of God. On the contrary, I am asking for reasons to believe in it for myself and this inevitably leads to the explanation of my own views, that threaten nodody. In fact, my trying to understand how other people are able to believe means that I am open to the possibility of my being wrong. How many religious people here are open to the possibility that perhaps it is me who is right? Please raise your hands.

    Somehow, I thought that you wouldn't be very sympathetic to attempts to reach God through purely logical arguments, like the one Ivashka presented. That looks very different to the kind of Taoist, experimental approach that you have been defending, if I understood you correctly. Aquinas, by the way, was quite an opposite figure to Lao-Zhe. He was in favor of the death penalty and the extermination of heretics.


    Gradually, however, what was excluded by choice at the outset from the new technique came to be the basis of a new metaphysics.
     
    I don't think that's exactly what happened. Science showed in a very compelling way, much more compelling than pure faith, that many of the things that the Church had been preaching for centuries were false. This inevitably led to doubting all the rest of the religious edifice. Science is inquisitive and skeptical by nature. The clash between science and established religion with immovable dogmas was unavoidable. But I do agree that science cannot totally substitute religion or metaphysics and that is how I think most scientists regard the matter today. Even when Hawkings or Greene reject the idea of God as the cause of the Big Bang, they are implicitly admitting that at that level of scientific inquiry, the existence of phenomena beyond physics is not immediately out of the question.

    Replies: @Sher Singh, @Barbarossa, @HeavilyMarbledSteak, @Coconuts

    Of course it should never lead to animosity:) It never should have historically either.

    I like the Asian religious model of tolerance and syncretism and blurry boundaries, in which religions are all held to point to the same Truth but offer different paths to people with different temperaments.

    In China, everyone was said to be a little bit Buddhist, a little bit Taoist, and a little bit Confucian. When Buddhism first came to China, people simply considered it an Indian version of Taoism – indeed there were some nativist voices that called for rejecting this “foreign import”, but on the whole, the pragmatic and syncretist genius of the Chinese won out and integrated it into the fold.

    Thailand is ostensibly Buddhist – but everywhere you go in Bangkok there are shrines and status to Hindu gods. Practically every hotel has this elaborate and wonderful shrine to Brahma which I always used to love examining. And thousands of lovely “spirit houses” paying respect to the local spirits are everywhere, adding a significant animist layer to the local syncretism.

    I am a huge fan of such syncretism and blurry boundaries 🙂 Perhaps we can add Atheism to the syncretist vision as well – it’s a big tent 🙂

    Indeed, there are kinds of atheism that are more spiritual than some kinds of religion (like that of AP).

    As for intellectualism, you’re quite correct that my favored approach is experiential and contemplative rather than intellectual.

    Indeed, when I first started reading David Bentley Hart I was put off by his extremely elaborate intellectualism – I had just come off reading Mcgilchrist – but he ended up winning me over. I found an unexpected beauty and cogency in his intellectualism and began to see the grandeur of the ancient metaphysical traditions, although my approach is still experiential.

    But there is a lath for all of us.

    As for you, you certainly don’t come off as dogmatic and intolerant at all – I actually agree with your rejection of the way religion has come to be interpreted in modern times, as factual and literal and dogmatic. Certainly if you take “created in six days” literally then that kind of thing can’t survive on the modern world.

    But to my gratification, the ancient religions never understood it this way until modern times.

    As for Thomas Aquinas, you are correct he is very much not my cup of tea – he seems to have been a moral monster, who thought the righteous would enjoy seeing sinners writhe in hell, and thought the perfection if creation required some to suffer and be damned. This is a significant deterioration from ancient Christianity, and infinitely inferior to Mahayana Buddhism with it’s beautiful vision of the Bodhisattva who refuses Nirvana to eventually save every last sentient being. Thomism was a huge disaster in Western Christianity. For all that, some of his metaphysical arguments are interesting.

    Well, I definitely appreciate your willingness to strike a bold and uncompromising skeptical stance, and you should continue as long as this seems satisfying to you – it does not create any hard feelings jn me.

    And we should talk more about our wilderness forays really….

    • Agree: Sher Singh
    • Replies: @Sher Singh
    @HeavilyMarbledSteak

    ਖੰਡਾ ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮੈ ਸਾਜ ਕੈ ਜਿਨ ਸਭ ਸੈਸਾਰੁ ਉਪਾਇਆ ॥
    kha(n)ddaa pirathamai saaj kai jin sabh saisaar upaiaa ||
    At first the Lord created the double-edged sword and then He created the whole world.

    Sure, but that multiplicity still requires firm core principles.

    1. Ban Cow Slaughter
    2. Reject those who reject that multiplicity (schismatic monotheists)

    ਚਾਰੇਯੁਗਕਹਾਣੀਚਲਗਤੇਗ਼ਦੀ

    Replies: @HeavilyMarbledSteak

    , @Mikel
    @HeavilyMarbledSteak


    I am a huge fan of such syncretism and blurry boundaries 🙂 Perhaps we can add Atheism to the syncretist vision as well – it’s a big tent
     
    Well, do as you wish but I would recommend to put some boundaries on your syncretism, lest it becomes too confusing :) Perhaps there's some spiritual thing to learn even from religions that practice/d human sacrifices, who knows, but I'd personally leave them out of my own tent.

    And we should talk more about our wilderness forays really….
     
    A much more relaxing subject than the meaning of human existence, certainly. During the last months I've been very busy so I've settled in a routine of just visiting a few nearby mountain favorite places of mine. That's why I chose to live here after all, to have that luxury at hand when I can't go and explore new places. But that also means that I don't have a lot to tell, unless I enter in a description of the amazing transition from a high desert environment to an alpine one as you climb the slopes of the Wasatch range. That would bore everyone to death, I'm afraid.

    Utah winters are always long and often extend well into the spring months so another thing we've settled into is visiting some tropical place every winter for a change. I can't wait to fly to the tropics early in February. I would be happy enough to just travel a few hours down to the sunny Southwest desert a few times every winter and that's probably what I'll do when I retire but right now I need to consider my wife and son's wishes and who can complain about a week by a tropical beach during this extremely snowy winter? Besides, this coming April I'm planning to visit the Coachella Festival. I've never been there and am very curious to see what that gathering of hippies and freaks in the California desert feels like.

    When you have the time I'd find it interesting to know how the Sawtooth mountains in Idaho compare to the Wind River Range. My guess is that the Sawtooths must have a pure Rocky Mountain scenery with a Canadian flavor whereas the Wind Rivers, being at the end of the Rockies, where the mountains give way to the Wyoming plains, must be drier and a bit less forested, at least at lower elevations.

    Replies: @HeavilyMarbledSteak

  398. @Barbarossa
    @AP

    I'm going to give this one more shot to get at the heart of the matter. Some of the points that I'd like to make in regards to the poor and sinfulness can perhaps be best communicated via a personal anecdote.

    A couple years ago, on my way to a jobsite I kept driving past a homeless guy who was set up on the side of the road pan-handling. I brought him some food one day and had a bit of a conversation with him. He seemed like a harmless enough guy, probably mid-60's with a pretty fit and wiry build. A couple days later I decided to stop again and this time I offered him some work and a space to stay at my shop. He agreed and loaded his stuff into my big van for the ride back to my workshop. I set him up in my office with a futon, use of the microwave etc. and the plan for him to work on painting some of my barn the next day.

    The next day came and he procrastinated on really doing any work. Instead, he set up his chair outside the shop and worked on a seemingly endless supply of Keystone Light. He affable enough though ill at ease and finally asked to go back to where I picked him up from. So the next day as I made my way to the job-site I dropped him off supplied with a few basics and my phone number if he changed his mind.

    While driving with him he talked some about his past and he just seemed like a man who had been broken by the world. Unsuccessful in marriage, alcoholic, and unskilled in any particular trade, he found himself gradually falling a little further until he had nothing and no one left, settling for the easy solutions of mobility and cheap beer.

    A couple things stuck in my mind about the whole encounter, which hold true for most other interactions I've had with homeless people. One was his evident discomfort with being treated as a man, and not just an object of charity. He had an almost animal undercurrent of distrust or apprehension. In trying to treat him with some dignity it seemed like it was too uncomfortable for him.

    I really believe that a part of him truly wanted to take me up on my offer and that when he got into my van he really intended to do that work. However, when the time came to take that action it seemed like he was paralyzed by fear. Part of him could envision a different path, but he found himself unable or unwilling to push past that fear and give it a go. In the end it was too much of a difficult prospect and he could only revert to what he knew and was comfortable with.

    Was the man socially dysfunctional and self destructive? Undeniably yes. I have an extremely hard time saying that he was really a sinful man though. Sin's seriousness is largely contingent upon intent and awareness. In John 9:40-41 Jesus spells this out.


    Some of the Pharisees who were with Him heard this, and they asked Him, “Are we blind too?” “If you were blind,” Jesus replied, “you would not be guilty of sin. But since you claim you can see, your guilt remains.”
     
    That homeless man seemed to me one who was blind. I truly think he was really doing the best that he could, given what he could muster within himself, but that life and whatever his circumstances had been had beaten him down so far that the prospect of change or taking me up on my offer was cripplingly petrifying. So, I take issue with judging that man or others like him of some empirical measure of sinfulness. We just don't know that, we are not God, and we are explicitly instructed against this type of yardstick measurement. In the end I felt as though that man was worthy of my sympathy and my aid, but that I couldn't find in myself to judge him. I just felt rather sad for him.

    So, I think if you want to make a discussion the social utility (or lack of) of homeless populations, the differences in IQ correlated to lack of self-control in homeless populations, or any number of similar angles then I think you can use the logical framework that you have adopted. As soon as you bring sin and associated ideas of relative spiritual worthiness into the equation then I react strongly to it as I see your empirical approach as being not only unapplicable, but also as RSDB says, spiritually dangerous.

    I would be more likely to see as morally culpable the people at the top who have systematically dismantled our moral and ethical frameworks which provided certain behavioral and social guardrails which may have helped someone like that maintain a healthier path in life.

    Replies: @Barbarossa, @AP, @HeavilyMarbledSteak

    I like your comment overall, and appreciate your anecdote about that homeless person.

    The only thing I wonder about, is whether it’s possible to see that guy as someone who was more suited to the contemplative path, but who could not find his way to it in the modern world.

    Perhaps, he was someone who in Wordsworth’s words ” the world was too much for him” – that is, the modern world of machines, industry, business, money, competition, etc. Wordsworth certainly thought there might be something wrong with the modern world he saw emerging in his time.

    And perhaps there was a part of him that wanted to do a certain amount decent, minimal work, but who was afraid that once he set out on that path the modern world of work would swallow him whole.

    I once worked in my 20s at a job that was very highly paid, but rather soul crushing. I would take frequent time off to devote to what really mattered to me (the money was high enough to let me do that), but one time, I noticed that as the months passed I didn’t hate the work so much – but also, that something in me was dying, and I was losing touch with Beauty. I got scared, and quit.

    Of course, I also agree with you that most average people do well with structure and guidelines and signposts, and the total loss of these in modern times has been a disaster. And it’s possible that homeless guy was merely a casualty of this.

    In the end, I think society should be a pyramid – a solid foundation of traditional values, family, reasonable work, etc, leading up to the higher spiritual pursuits at the apex.

    I would only say that in modern times, the obsession with work and money has dis-ordered the solid foundation away from “reasonable”, satisfying work towards frenetic modern work, and that “apex spirituality”, which sheds it’s light back onto the solid foundation, has been lost.

    What I’m advocating for really is an expanded, more inclusive vision – and not an either/or type thing.

    But overall good comment and thanks for sharing.

    • Agree: Sher Singh, Barbarossa
    • Replies: @Sher Singh
    @HeavilyMarbledSteak

    You should be sacrificed atop a pyramid for having a name which insults the Gods||

    ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫਤਹਿ

  399. @songbird
    @QCIC


    What’s not to like?
     
    Even monarchist planets for AP.

    I definitely do think that a lot of people are writing Russia off as a civilization way too soon. I mean, like Zeihan is saying that it is going to implode, but he also says that of China and a lot of other countries. Says that it isn't true of the US, which, even if it never goes bang, is displaying increasingly worrying signs - like for instance that recent judicial nominee, not even pretending to know or care about the Constitution.

    I get nostalgic for Cold War culture myself, when the West wasn't obviously ghey (well, maybe putting aside some things) and self-hating.

    And it's instructive in itself how a lot of these sci-fi authors got things very wrong about the future, and how nobody predicted the fall of the Berlin Wall. Think it is safe to say that it is hard for anyone to predict too far out. Wasn't too long ago that it seemed like Russia and the US were going to be good friends.

    Replies: @S

    And it’s instructive in itself how a lot of these sci-fi authors got things very wrong about the future, and how nobody predicted the fall of the Berlin Wall.

    Kubrick in his 1968 film 2001; A Space Odyssey seems to hint that there had been a rapprochement between the East and West in the future, ie there is no mention of Communism, though the fate of the Berlin Wall is not specifically addressed.

    • Replies: @songbird
    @S

    Thanks. The sequel 2010 also had Soviets in it (or I'm pretty sure they were Soviets.) The Americans traveled aboard the Soviet space ship to the abandoned ship from the first movie.

    In that movie, there were clearly tensions between the two groups, but in a way that is keeping with the CoDominium idea. (BTW, I wonder if A123 ever noticed the similarities between the Soviet ship and the Earth battle ships from B5)

    IIRC, the book was serialized in some Soviet scifi mag, and it was a big hit. But then they figured out that Clarke had given the Russian characters the names of dissidents, and they immediately stopped the series. People kept writing to the magazine to find out what happened, so eventually they published a reduced plot of what happened.

    It is interesting that Clarke was anti-Soviet (a lot of writers were pro), I wonder if that was because he was gay. Or maybe because of Afghanistan. I recall that in the original publication of Childhood's End (early '50s), there was some note at the beginning denouncing communism or atheism or something, but I would guess that was boilerplate, due to the irreligious plot, one of Clarke's favorite themes - where man becomes God.

    I remember the television series Stargate SG1 was still pretty big on Russians - I'm not sure the creators were really considering that China was rising and would eclipse Russia.

    In A123's favorite show, Babylon 5, I think there was some sort of Russian alliance, which was different from the rest of Earth, even though civilization spanned some stars.

    Replies: @S

  400. @songbird
    @A123


    Those who are secretly heterosexual might be at risk…
     
    LOL. Though, I honestly suspect that gays are more effusive when you put the right bait in front of them. (Think of it roughly like a female brain in the body of a man) Could be wrong, but also what is significantly different is that they are a protected class, and probably rightly believe they can get away with more. Plus don't have the same pressures of not disgracing their family, or losing their income.

    Not to mention, a regular guy might fear that he'd be me-tooed, if he met alone with some hot woman.

    Replies: @LondonBob

    A lot to be said for the theory of the female egg and male egg in the womb merging with female traits remaining.

    Of course it is also a mental illness.

    https://kirkegaard.substack.com/p/homosexuality-is-a-mental-illness

    • Thanks: songbird
    • Replies: @Emil Nikola Richard
    @LondonBob

    Did you read Scott Alexander's thing on DSM classifications and the pedophile tendency of homosexuals? It was one of the most unintentionally funny things in a year.

    Even a homophilic professional psychiatrist cannot explain why homosexuals are not mentally ill and pedophiles are mentally ill. He would like to do this as much as Einstein wanted a unified field theory for galaxies and particles.

    Replies: @Yahya

  401. @Emil Nikola Richard
    @LondonBob

    Helmer et al are making a mountain out of a molehill. There's a hotline between Washington and Moscow, no?

    Somebody in the White House is intelligent enough to write a script where Biden eats crow and apologizes to Putin and to the Russian nation. This ain't rocket science. Also: nobody is going to do that anytime soon. This is like redirecting an oil tanker, not a a dirt bike.

    Replies: @LondonBob

    Maybe, but Helmer is one of the better informed commentators, haven’t seen the Wapo article discussed elsewhere yet. Ignatius has always been a mouthpiece for the CIA and/or State Department, so it was certainly an interesting article to publish.

    http://johnhelmer.org/blinken-explainer-nuland-too/#more-70544

  402. @HeavilyMarbledSteak
    @Mikel

    Of course it should never lead to animosity:) It never should have historically either.

    I like the Asian religious model of tolerance and syncretism and blurry boundaries, in which religions are all held to point to the same Truth but offer different paths to people with different temperaments.

    In China, everyone was said to be a little bit Buddhist, a little bit Taoist, and a little bit Confucian. When Buddhism first came to China, people simply considered it an Indian version of Taoism - indeed there were some nativist voices that called for rejecting this "foreign import", but on the whole, the pragmatic and syncretist genius of the Chinese won out and integrated it into the fold.

    Thailand is ostensibly Buddhist - but everywhere you go in Bangkok there are shrines and status to Hindu gods. Practically every hotel has this elaborate and wonderful shrine to Brahma which I always used to love examining. And thousands of lovely "spirit houses" paying respect to the local spirits are everywhere, adding a significant animist layer to the local syncretism.

    I am a huge fan of such syncretism and blurry boundaries :) Perhaps we can add Atheism to the syncretist vision as well - it's a big tent :)

    Indeed, there are kinds of atheism that are more spiritual than some kinds of religion (like that of AP).

    As for intellectualism, you're quite correct that my favored approach is experiential and contemplative rather than intellectual.

    Indeed, when I first started reading David Bentley Hart I was put off by his extremely elaborate intellectualism - I had just come off reading Mcgilchrist - but he ended up winning me over. I found an unexpected beauty and cogency in his intellectualism and began to see the grandeur of the ancient metaphysical traditions, although my approach is still experiential.

    But there is a lath for all of us.

    As for you, you certainly don't come off as dogmatic and intolerant at all - I actually agree with your rejection of the way religion has come to be interpreted in modern times, as factual and literal and dogmatic. Certainly if you take "created in six days" literally then that kind of thing can't survive on the modern world.

    But to my gratification, the ancient religions never understood it this way until modern times.

    As for Thomas Aquinas, you are correct he is very much not my cup of tea - he seems to have been a moral monster, who thought the righteous would enjoy seeing sinners writhe in hell, and thought the perfection if creation required some to suffer and be damned. This is a significant deterioration from ancient Christianity, and infinitely inferior to Mahayana Buddhism with it's beautiful vision of the Bodhisattva who refuses Nirvana to eventually save every last sentient being. Thomism was a huge disaster in Western Christianity. For all that, some of his metaphysical arguments are interesting.

    Well, I definitely appreciate your willingness to strike a bold and uncompromising skeptical stance, and you should continue as long as this seems satisfying to you - it does not create any hard feelings jn me.

    And we should talk more about our wilderness forays really....

    Replies: @Sher Singh, @Mikel

    ਖੰਡਾ ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮੈ ਸਾਜ ਕੈ ਜਿਨ ਸਭ ਸੈਸਾਰੁ ਉਪਾਇਆ ॥
    kha(n)ddaa pirathamai saaj kai jin sabh saisaar upaiaa ||
    At first the Lord created the double-edged sword and then He created the whole world.

    Sure, but that multiplicity still requires firm core principles.

    1. Ban Cow Slaughter
    2. Reject those who reject that multiplicity (schismatic monotheists)

    ਚਾਰੇਯੁਗਕਹਾਣੀਚਲਗਤੇਗ਼ਦੀ

    • Replies: @HeavilyMarbledSteak
    @Sher Singh

    We can reject the schismatic monotheists, but then we become just like them, or we can with compassion and love guide them back into connection with their own ancient traditions, which are syncretic. Even ancient Judaism was an amalgam of ancient Near Eastern myths common to the whole region, Zoroastrianism, and later, Greek and Muslim elements. Maimonides for instance was a huge admirer of Aristotle, and used him heavily in developing his own philosophy, and 12th century Spanish Jewish theologians - who today still are part of the classic Orthodox cannon and widely read - consciously borrowed from the Sufis, and were not ashamed to admit it.

    Yet today my Orthodox Jewish friends get angry at me if I quote from any source outside Judaism and tell me Judaism has nothing to learn from anyone and in fact it was Judaism that taught all these foreign religions in ancient times :)

    It is mere petty chauvinism, and completely alien to the various classical ages of Judaism, and purely a corruption of modern times. Older Jewish thinkers would have laughed at this.

    It is the loss of dimension common to modern times. One of the most popular and beloved medieval Christian fables in Europe was actually about the Buddha and imported from Asia, the story of Barlaam and Josaphat :) So similar in outlook was Medieval Christianity and Buddhism in medieval times.

    Today, seminal thinkers like David Bentley Hart are working to restore this ancient ecumenism and fighting against the modern scientific spirit of "strict boundaries" - while a firm and committed Orthodox Christian, he is not afraid to admit he draws heavily on Asian traditions, and writes frequently on Hinduism and Buddhism.

    And let's not forget that this chauvinist rejectionism is today making serious headway in the Hinduism of India under Modi, and various Buddhist sects, most notably in Burma.

    It is a common modern problem we will all have to face and overcome.

    As for eating of the cow, let's not forget that mere survival is not the purpose of life, and as long as the cow is permitted to live a reasonable time and treated with compassion and respect (we should utterly reject factory farming), it may find it's deepest fulfillment in life by providing nourishment to other beings, in an interconnected world where all is Atman. Am I not after all just eating myself? :) After all, I hope to be eaten by other life forms after I die and am happy to - in Tibetan Buddhism, corpses are often fed to vultures stop cliffs. It's beautiful. Why should cows, especially heavily marbled ones, be exempt from this beautiful circle of life?

    As for the double edged sword, perhaps on Sikhism it wasn't meant literally but was more of a metaphor for the sword of spirituality?

    Don't sink into modern literalism...

    Replies: @Sher Singh, @Sher Singh

  403. @Ivashka the fool
    @AP


    There is no conflict because Scripture can only be property understood as interpreted by the Church.
     
    And who will examine the doctors ?

    The Church has censored the early Christian scripture and has also had a period of purges about the metaphysics of Trinity. Then it split into Catholic and Orthodox, and again into Catholic and Protestant, with the later dissolving into a multitude of sects. During that time, the Orthodox got a conflict between the Uniate among them and the "true Orthodox" which in Russia have then undergone a bloody Raskol which can only be compared to a spiritual Civil War between the Nikonian Church and the Old Believers.

    Compared to this the history of the CPSU is a walk in the park.

    Are you certain that your priest in your Uniate Church has the right take on the message of Jesus ? That any priest in any Church has the right take ?

    I mean, just reading the Gospel of Thomas apocryphon makes one doubt the Church interpretation of some passages. And I don't even want to get into the role of Saint Paul (who has never met Jesus in his lifetime).

    Nothing human should be considered perfect. Despite whatever it preaches, Church is a human institution that is also subjected to corruption and decay.

    Replies: @AnonfromTN

    I know it sounds atheist, but in reality it’s agnostic: there are too many gods to take them seriously.

    • Replies: @Another Polish Perspective
    @AnonfromTN

    Hermes Trismegistos was said to be a god with thousand faces. The science of gods' names, present in almost any religion, is a clue that there are fewer gods than their names; Hermes Trismegistos is the spirit and the essence of the phenomenon known as religious syncretism. Some gods are as accommodating as Jesuits were during their mission to China, or even more.

    https://www.asianstudies.org/publications/eaa/archives/the-early-modern-jesuit-mission-to-china-a-marriage-of-faith-and-culture/

    For a similar reason, Kabbalists distinguish between names and true names of God, so in the end only they know who is truly who, or so they claim ;) In the West, Ursula LeGuin "Earthsea" novels are the less religious and more cultural expression of this obsession with names and their alleged "power" (knowledge of a true name of someone gives you knowledge of and power over him etc).

    Replies: @songbird, @Another Polish Perspective

  404. @HeavilyMarbledSteak
    @Barbarossa

    I like your comment overall, and appreciate your anecdote about that homeless person.

    The only thing I wonder about, is whether it's possible to see that guy as someone who was more suited to the contemplative path, but who could not find his way to it in the modern world.

    Perhaps, he was someone who in Wordsworth's words " the world was too much for him" - that is, the modern world of machines, industry, business, money, competition, etc. Wordsworth certainly thought there might be something wrong with the modern world he saw emerging in his time.

    And perhaps there was a part of him that wanted to do a certain amount decent, minimal work, but who was afraid that once he set out on that path the modern world of work would swallow him whole.

    I once worked in my 20s at a job that was very highly paid, but rather soul crushing. I would take frequent time off to devote to what really mattered to me (the money was high enough to let me do that), but one time, I noticed that as the months passed I didn't hate the work so much - but also, that something in me was dying, and I was losing touch with Beauty. I got scared, and quit.

    Of course, I also agree with you that most average people do well with structure and guidelines and signposts, and the total loss of these in modern times has been a disaster. And it's possible that homeless guy was merely a casualty of this.

    In the end, I think society should be a pyramid - a solid foundation of traditional values, family, reasonable work, etc, leading up to the higher spiritual pursuits at the apex.

    I would only say that in modern times, the obsession with work and money has dis-ordered the solid foundation away from "reasonable", satisfying work towards frenetic modern work, and that "apex spirituality", which sheds it's light back onto the solid foundation, has been lost.

    What I'm advocating for really is an expanded, more inclusive vision - and not an either/or type thing.

    But overall good comment and thanks for sharing.

    Replies: @Sher Singh

    You should be sacrificed atop a pyramid for having a name which insults the Gods||

    ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫਤਹਿ

  405. @Sher Singh
    @HeavilyMarbledSteak

    ਖੰਡਾ ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮੈ ਸਾਜ ਕੈ ਜਿਨ ਸਭ ਸੈਸਾਰੁ ਉਪਾਇਆ ॥
    kha(n)ddaa pirathamai saaj kai jin sabh saisaar upaiaa ||
    At first the Lord created the double-edged sword and then He created the whole world.

    Sure, but that multiplicity still requires firm core principles.

    1. Ban Cow Slaughter
    2. Reject those who reject that multiplicity (schismatic monotheists)

    ਚਾਰੇਯੁਗਕਹਾਣੀਚਲਗਤੇਗ਼ਦੀ

    Replies: @HeavilyMarbledSteak

    We can reject the schismatic monotheists, but then we become just like them, or we can with compassion and love guide them back into connection with their own ancient traditions, which are syncretic. Even ancient Judaism was an amalgam of ancient Near Eastern myths common to the whole region, Zoroastrianism, and later, Greek and Muslim elements. Maimonides for instance was a huge admirer of Aristotle, and used him heavily in developing his own philosophy, and 12th century Spanish Jewish theologians – who today still are part of the classic Orthodox cannon and widely read – consciously borrowed from the Sufis, and were not ashamed to admit it.

    Yet today my Orthodox Jewish friends get angry at me if I quote from any source outside Judaism and tell me Judaism has nothing to learn from anyone and in fact it was Judaism that taught all these foreign religions in ancient times 🙂

    It is mere petty chauvinism, and completely alien to the various classical ages of Judaism, and purely a corruption of modern times. Older Jewish thinkers would have laughed at this.

    It is the loss of dimension common to modern times. One of the most popular and beloved medieval Christian fables in Europe was actually about the Buddha and imported from Asia, the story of Barlaam and Josaphat 🙂 So similar in outlook was Medieval Christianity and Buddhism in medieval times.

    Today, seminal thinkers like David Bentley Hart are working to restore this ancient ecumenism and fighting against the modern scientific spirit of “strict boundaries” – while a firm and committed Orthodox Christian, he is not afraid to admit he draws heavily on Asian traditions, and writes frequently on Hinduism and Buddhism.

    And let’s not forget that this chauvinist rejectionism is today making serious headway in the Hinduism of India under Modi, and various Buddhist sects, most notably in Burma.

    It is a common modern problem we will all have to face and overcome.

    As for eating of the cow, let’s not forget that mere survival is not the purpose of life, and as long as the cow is permitted to live a reasonable time and treated with compassion and respect (we should utterly reject factory farming), it may find it’s deepest fulfillment in life by providing nourishment to other beings, in an interconnected world where all is Atman. Am I not after all just eating myself? 🙂 After all, I hope to be eaten by other life forms after I die and am happy to – in Tibetan Buddhism, corpses are often fed to vultures stop cliffs. It’s beautiful. Why should cows, especially heavily marbled ones, be exempt from this beautiful circle of life?

    As for the double edged sword, perhaps on Sikhism it wasn’t meant literally but was more of a metaphor for the sword of spirituality?

    Don’t sink into modern literalism…

    • Replies: @Sher Singh
    @HeavilyMarbledSteak

    Your entire spirituality is an attempt to escape the world & its authority and discipline.
    Why do you not also sleep with your mother? Many Jews in the time of Jesus did.
    Part of your cowardice & escapism is believing everyone can be convince or embraced.
    The logical conclusion of this is a fear of death & denial of liberation through war.

    The Christian who dies defending his faith has understood the true nature of existence.

    https://www.manglacharan.com/post/protection-of-cows-guru-hargobind-and-guru-gobind-singh



    Without Rule - Religion has not prospered
    Without Religion there is no confusion
    - Guru Gobind Singh

    The Singh is born from weapons, but is also a Saint.


    https://twitter.com/YungBhujang/status/1135839810390777857


    As for the double edged sword, perhaps on Sikhism it wasn’t meant literally but was more of a metaphor for the sword of spirituality?

     

    Why do you hate the Kirpan which is a physical sword used for a spiritual purpose?

    https://www.manglacharan.com/post/meaning-of-miri-piri-guru-hargobind-sahib-ji

    ਧਰੇ ਤੇਜ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਬਚ ਕਹੇ । ਹਮ ਨੇ ਇਸ ਹਿਤ ਜੁਗ ਅਸਿ ਗਹੇ । ਇਕ ਤੇ ਲੇਂ ਮੀਰਨਿ ਕੀ ਮੀਰੀ । ਦੂਸਰ ਤੇ ਪੀਰਨਿ ਕੀ ਪੀਰੀ ।੨੨।⁣⁣⁣
    The Guru valiantly replied, "For this reason I have adorned two [swords], One is a signifier of the Sovereignty over all Empires [Miran Ki Miri], and the other is a signifier of the Power of Spirituality [Piran Ki Piri]. ⁣⁣⁣
    ⁣⁣⁣
    ਮੀਰੀ ਪੀਰੀ ਦੋਨੋਂ ਧਰੈਂ । ਬਚਹਿ ਸਰਨਿ ਨਤੁ ਜੁਗ ਪਰਹਰੈਂ ।⁣⁣⁣
    I represent both Sovereignty and Spirituality; coming under My sanctuary you may be saved, if not we will take both away from you."⁣⁣⁣
     
    ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫਤਹਿ

    Replies: @Sher Singh, @HeavilyMarbledSteak

    , @Sher Singh
    @HeavilyMarbledSteak

    Khalsa is Rajan - people bow to the King before he raises them from his feet for an embrace||

    ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫਤਹਿ

    https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/640459736919048202/1069176767627141151/image.png

  406. Sher Singh says:
    @HeavilyMarbledSteak
    @Sher Singh

    We can reject the schismatic monotheists, but then we become just like them, or we can with compassion and love guide them back into connection with their own ancient traditions, which are syncretic. Even ancient Judaism was an amalgam of ancient Near Eastern myths common to the whole region, Zoroastrianism, and later, Greek and Muslim elements. Maimonides for instance was a huge admirer of Aristotle, and used him heavily in developing his own philosophy, and 12th century Spanish Jewish theologians - who today still are part of the classic Orthodox cannon and widely read - consciously borrowed from the Sufis, and were not ashamed to admit it.

    Yet today my Orthodox Jewish friends get angry at me if I quote from any source outside Judaism and tell me Judaism has nothing to learn from anyone and in fact it was Judaism that taught all these foreign religions in ancient times :)

    It is mere petty chauvinism, and completely alien to the various classical ages of Judaism, and purely a corruption of modern times. Older Jewish thinkers would have laughed at this.

    It is the loss of dimension common to modern times. One of the most popular and beloved medieval Christian fables in Europe was actually about the Buddha and imported from Asia, the story of Barlaam and Josaphat :) So similar in outlook was Medieval Christianity and Buddhism in medieval times.

    Today, seminal thinkers like David Bentley Hart are working to restore this ancient ecumenism and fighting against the modern scientific spirit of "strict boundaries" - while a firm and committed Orthodox Christian, he is not afraid to admit he draws heavily on Asian traditions, and writes frequently on Hinduism and Buddhism.

    And let's not forget that this chauvinist rejectionism is today making serious headway in the Hinduism of India under Modi, and various Buddhist sects, most notably in Burma.

    It is a common modern problem we will all have to face and overcome.

    As for eating of the cow, let's not forget that mere survival is not the purpose of life, and as long as the cow is permitted to live a reasonable time and treated with compassion and respect (we should utterly reject factory farming), it may find it's deepest fulfillment in life by providing nourishment to other beings, in an interconnected world where all is Atman. Am I not after all just eating myself? :) After all, I hope to be eaten by other life forms after I die and am happy to - in Tibetan Buddhism, corpses are often fed to vultures stop cliffs. It's beautiful. Why should cows, especially heavily marbled ones, be exempt from this beautiful circle of life?

    As for the double edged sword, perhaps on Sikhism it wasn't meant literally but was more of a metaphor for the sword of spirituality?

    Don't sink into modern literalism...

    Replies: @Sher Singh, @Sher Singh

    Your entire spirituality is an attempt to escape the world & its authority and discipline.
    Why do you not also sleep with your mother? Many Jews in the time of Jesus did.
    Part of your cowardice & escapism is believing everyone can be convince or embraced.
    The logical conclusion of this is a fear of death & denial of liberation through war.

    The Christian who dies defending his faith has understood the true nature of existence.

    https://www.manglacharan.com/post/protection-of-cows-guru-hargobind-and-guru-gobind-singh

    [MORE]

    Without Rule – Religion has not prospered
    Without Religion there is no confusion
    – Guru Gobind Singh

    The Singh is born from weapons, but is also a Saint.

    As for the double edged sword, perhaps on Sikhism it wasn’t meant literally but was more of a metaphor for the sword of spirituality?

    Why do you hate the Kirpan which is a physical sword used for a spiritual purpose?

    https://www.manglacharan.com/post/meaning-of-miri-piri-guru-hargobind-sahib-ji

    ਧਰੇ ਤੇਜ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਬਚ ਕਹੇ । ਹਮ ਨੇ ਇਸ ਹਿਤ ਜੁਗ ਅਸਿ ਗਹੇ । ਇਕ ਤੇ ਲੇਂ ਮੀਰਨਿ ਕੀ ਮੀਰੀ । ਦੂਸਰ ਤੇ ਪੀਰਨਿ ਕੀ ਪੀਰੀ ।੨੨।⁣⁣⁣
    The Guru valiantly replied, “For this reason I have adorned two [swords], One is a signifier of the Sovereignty over all Empires [Miran Ki Miri], and the other is a signifier of the Power of Spirituality [Piran Ki Piri]. ⁣⁣⁣
    ⁣⁣⁣
    ਮੀਰੀ ਪੀਰੀ ਦੋਨੋਂ ਧਰੈਂ । ਬਚਹਿ ਸਰਨਿ ਨਤੁ ਜੁਗ ਪਰਹਰੈਂ ।⁣⁣⁣
    I represent both Sovereignty and Spirituality; coming under My sanctuary you may be saved, if not we will take both away from you.”⁣⁣⁣

    ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫਤਹਿ

    • Replies: @Sher Singh
    @Sher Singh

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/62/Rajput_Khanda.jpg

    Singhs receive initiation through Khande Di Pahul (Nectar of the double edged sword)

    correction of previous post

    Raaj Bina Dharma Na Challey
    Dharma Bina Sab Dalley Malley

    Without Raaj, Dharma has not prospered
    Without Dharma there is confusion
    -
    Guru Gobind Singh

    You lust for the flesh of the cow more than you yearn freedom from modernity.


    https://twitter.com/kharagket/status/1480223475746971656?lang=en
    https://twitter.com/GSD1699/status/1431904012702392324

    Now, what you lack is Sangat & Rajan.
    The Sangat or Congregation provides the common man a focal nexus to do good.

    The Rajan or Kshatriya Ruler provides patronage to the Saints & Ascetics.

    https://sialmirzagoraya.substack.com/p/evolution-of-the-sikh-polity
    https://sialmirzagoraya.medium.com/sangat-and-society-the-sikh-remaking-of-the-north-indian-public-sphere-c655ad7c72fa


    ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫਤਹਿ

    , @HeavilyMarbledSteak
    @Sher Singh

    Many things in this world are supposed to be escaped and transcends, not affirmed or engaged with...

    "Escapism" is a slur modernity invented to drag you back down into the muck...it's a propaganda term, don't buy into it...

    To that end, I just finished reading Alice in Wonderland and Through the Looking Glass for the third or fourth time, wonderful escapist stuff with deep metaphysical import...

    Have you read them? They shed light on Sikhism, dear Singh..

  407. Sher Singh says:
    @Sher Singh
    @HeavilyMarbledSteak

    Your entire spirituality is an attempt to escape the world & its authority and discipline.
    Why do you not also sleep with your mother? Many Jews in the time of Jesus did.
    Part of your cowardice & escapism is believing everyone can be convince or embraced.
    The logical conclusion of this is a fear of death & denial of liberation through war.

    The Christian who dies defending his faith has understood the true nature of existence.

    https://www.manglacharan.com/post/protection-of-cows-guru-hargobind-and-guru-gobind-singh



    Without Rule - Religion has not prospered
    Without Religion there is no confusion
    - Guru Gobind Singh

    The Singh is born from weapons, but is also a Saint.


    https://twitter.com/YungBhujang/status/1135839810390777857


    As for the double edged sword, perhaps on Sikhism it wasn’t meant literally but was more of a metaphor for the sword of spirituality?

     

    Why do you hate the Kirpan which is a physical sword used for a spiritual purpose?

    https://www.manglacharan.com/post/meaning-of-miri-piri-guru-hargobind-sahib-ji

    ਧਰੇ ਤੇਜ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਬਚ ਕਹੇ । ਹਮ ਨੇ ਇਸ ਹਿਤ ਜੁਗ ਅਸਿ ਗਹੇ । ਇਕ ਤੇ ਲੇਂ ਮੀਰਨਿ ਕੀ ਮੀਰੀ । ਦੂਸਰ ਤੇ ਪੀਰਨਿ ਕੀ ਪੀਰੀ ।੨੨।⁣⁣⁣
    The Guru valiantly replied, "For this reason I have adorned two [swords], One is a signifier of the Sovereignty over all Empires [Miran Ki Miri], and the other is a signifier of the Power of Spirituality [Piran Ki Piri]. ⁣⁣⁣
    ⁣⁣⁣
    ਮੀਰੀ ਪੀਰੀ ਦੋਨੋਂ ਧਰੈਂ । ਬਚਹਿ ਸਰਨਿ ਨਤੁ ਜੁਗ ਪਰਹਰੈਂ ।⁣⁣⁣
    I represent both Sovereignty and Spirituality; coming under My sanctuary you may be saved, if not we will take both away from you."⁣⁣⁣
     
    ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫਤਹਿ

    Replies: @Sher Singh, @HeavilyMarbledSteak

    Singhs receive initiation through Khande Di Pahul (Nectar of the double edged sword)

    correction of previous post

    Raaj Bina Dharma Na Challey
    Dharma Bina Sab Dalley Malley

    Without Raaj, Dharma has not prospered
    Without Dharma there is confusion

    Guru Gobind Singh

    You lust for the flesh of the cow more than you yearn freedom from modernity.

    [MORE]


    https://twitter.com/GSD1699/status/1431904012702392324

    Now, what you lack is Sangat & Rajan.
    The Sangat or Congregation provides the common man a focal nexus to do good.

    The Rajan or Kshatriya Ruler provides patronage to the Saints & Ascetics.

    https://sialmirzagoraya.substack.com/p/evolution-of-the-sikh-polity
    https://sialmirzagoraya.medium.com/sangat-and-society-the-sikh-remaking-of-the-north-indian-public-sphere-c655ad7c72fa

    ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫਤਹਿ

  408. Sher Singh says:

    Guru Nanak’s Baburvani: a Sikh theory of history

    Nanak exclaims – ‘You yourself unite, You yourself separate; I gaze upon Your Glorious Greatness.’

    From this, we can derive an understanding of history. Of why, as in a classic theological question, bad things happen to good people. And what can we do about it.

    The mere fact that Guru Nanak expresses this nature of God, is a Revelation that has two consequences.

    One, we must not expect someone to come and save us. Two, we must do so ourselves. And the way, the passage through this churn, will be shown to us, only if we know whom to ask. (The Guru.)

    From here, the basic elements of Sikh society begin to develop. In the face of historical forces, to protect ourselves against it, we must look within, for faith to understand our predicament, and we must look outside, at our neighbours who are all facing the same consequences. So, through faith and through association with neighbours, the Sangat (community) begins to develop. And the one is no longer alone to face the wrath of history.

    https://sialmirzagoraya.substack.com/p/guru-nanaks-baburvani-a-sikh-theory

    [MORE]

    An ‘invasion’ is almost like a natural force, whom do you blame for it? Leo Tolstoy reached a similar conclusion about Napoleon’s invasions across Europe.

    So, this is a vision for understanding history that comes from our past. Rather than looking at the characters of people, of individuals who were, in the end inconsequential, what does an era of invasions actually mean, in a deeper sense. Why does death and destruction happen – because in the words of the Baburvaani it is a ‘separation’, that makes possible a new ‘unity’.

    Again, do not look at individuals. Look at the forces from below. The greatest symbol of the unity that came from the Mughal era was Guru Nanak himself. In Baba Nanak, the Bhakti and Sufi traditions that were creating a churn in Indian society reached their apogee – the emergence of a new path, recognisable even to the simplest minds, but altogether new, even perhaps radical.

    The two ‘oceans’ of Ancient Indian thought and spiritual Islam, as Dara Shukhoh put it, were uniting in the Mughal Empire. But, in fact, it was not two oceans, but hundreds of seas, hundreds of traditions, that began to merge, create new philosophies, cultures and identities. The philosophy of Guru Nanak emerged as a ‘vessel’ to cut across these churning waters. A new path, a Panth that offered a different way to reach the divine – the ‘land’ across the waters of maya.

    In the previous section, I attempted a discussion of a philosophy of history by referring to Guru Nanak’s Baburvani. I wrote that in my understanding the Baburvani seems almost like an admonition to God, a complaint.

    This until, Nanak exclaims – ‘You yourself unite, You yourself separate; I gaze upon Your Glorious Greatness.’

    From this, we can derive an understanding of history. Of why, as in a classic theological question, bad things happen to good people. And what can we do about it.

    In this section I will explore how this simple statement from Guru Nanak forms a ‘bedrock’ on which later Sikh society – the Sangat – and even the idea of the Sikh polity – the Khalsa – develops.

    Now, in the face of the unfolding of brutal history, what can a ‘normal’ powerless human being do? God, who is ‘nirbhau/nirvair’ – beyond human values and one who does not take sides – in a sense, ‘allows’ history to happen, because He will not intervene in human affairs. At least, that is what the Baburvaani initially implies. But if we look closer, He has intervened, and He has done so through Guru Nanak.

    In Sikh theology, the ten gurus and then the Adi Granth, form a continuing line of revelation (light). This idea of the Sangat that looks after its members, faces up to the forces of history, develops in time, into the Khalsa – which not only protects against the tides of destruction, but has the power to reverse them.

    So, the lament in the initial verses in the Baburvani is also answered by the realisation in the end. History is a force – that breaks society and social order, but it can also be tamed to create a new form of society, and new social orders that are just, founded on and empowered by Dharma.

    In a deeper sense then, God is not completely absent in the face of human suffering. Suffering is a forge, to make the ‘weak’ and the ‘helpless’ who looks for help from the outside, strong enough, to find strength within.

  409. @Wokechoke
    @Mikhail

    I don't mind that she's a hypocrite but she appears to be a blithering moron/giggling idiot. Greta "I own 100 private jets" Thunberg.
    Metzger was right about the Eurocops doing arrests softly. After the Rhodes Statue protest in Oxford a pack of coons started to breakdance and surrounded a couple of cops demanding they kneel. The cops counter break danced and kneeled like good PR flacks.

    Replies: @Greasy William

    ACAB

  410. RAND also now advocating a peace deal. I don’t think these moves are just rhetoric, War exhaustion in DC. Interesting how the Ukrainian lines hold up with these probing attacks, what are their reserves?

    [MORE]

    • Replies: @AnonfromTN
    @LondonBob

    I am not privy to Putin’ plans, but I feel (like most people in Russia) that it is too late in the game for anything short of unconditional capitulation of the US puppets. I don’t think the empire is ready for that just yet.

    Replies: @LondonBob

    , @Greasy William
    @LondonBob


    War exhaustion in DC
     
    The United States is, to borrow a phrase from Nasrallah, "weak as a spider's web". The US has no stomach for long military engagements.

    Interesting how the Ukrainian lines hold up with these probing attacks, what are their reserves
     
    They have been used up saving Zelensky's ego in Bakhmut


    The Rand piece shows how overextended the US empire is, and the recession hasn't even hit yet. It's clear that Washington sees China as its primary rival and that a long conflict makes "containing" China more difficult.

    But it also isn't that simple. There is an emotional component here: Russia is absolutely reviled by the shitlib base of the Democratic party. A Russian victory would be viewed by the CNN/MSNBC viewing portion of the US population as a precursor to the eventual establishment of a dystopian MAGA dictatorship in the US. What's more, Biden's own cabinet likely contains many who also share the same delusion.

    And one other thing: the US has already put its prestige on the line. There are no take backs for that. If Russia comes out of this war with major territorial gains and a demilitarized, landlocked, Zelensky free Ukraine that is economically dependent on Russia, that will be a clear and overwhelming defeat for the United States and the "rules based international order". For the US, there is no easy way out of this

    Replies: @A123

  411. Okay, first of all, the Abrams/Leopards, ATACAMS, F-16s, Patriots, etc.: it does not appear that Russia is very concerned and I agree that these systems, if they even arrive, will make only a marginal difference in the fighting. Wonder weapons don’t win wars if they aren’t in sufficient quantities and aren’t backed with logistics and training. The US has a mammoth economic and industrial advantage over the RF, but it so far has been unable to apply it fully to the Ukrainian battlefield and it does not appear that is going to change anytime soon. I do not believe that the new weapons going to Ukraine are meant to turn the tide of the battle. Rather I think the West is responding to the internal pressure of their shitlib base who beleive that Ukraine will defeat Russia if only they are given the right systems.

    While the attack on Bakhmut continues, there is also a large Russian assault on Ugledar. It appears that Russia is launching a comprehensive operation aimed at conquering the entire Donbas. I personally do not think this operation will be successful because I don’t think that Russia has sufficient forces in theatre. I believe that Bakhmut and Ugledar will both fall sometime in 2023, but I don’t expect anything beyond that.

    • Replies: @LondonBob
    @Greasy William

    Scott Ritter making the point that all the equipment being sent is a lot less than requested, although Jacob Dreizin says the real amount sent so far is a lot more than has been announced and is often already there.

    Still think that false flag missile attack on Poland was the turning point, had they wanted to escalate, they would have then.

    Replies: @Mikhail

  412. @LondonBob
    RAND also now advocating a peace deal. I don't think these moves are just rhetoric, War exhaustion in DC. Interesting how the Ukrainian lines hold up with these probing attacks, what are their reserves?

    https://twitter.com/otiknuks/status/1618890838901420033?s=20&t=fQ7HdJcDxlKV-u750wch9A

    Replies: @AnonfromTN, @Greasy William

    I am not privy to Putin’ plans, but I feel (like most people in Russia) that it is too late in the game for anything short of unconditional capitulation of the US puppets. I don’t think the empire is ready for that just yet.

    • Replies: @LondonBob
    @AnonfromTN

    Unless the Ukrainian Army collapses then capturing major cities like Kharkov, Kherson, Odessa, Nikolaev, Zapo would be very costly, time consuming and bloody.

    Replies: @AnonfromTN

  413. @LondonBob
    RAND also now advocating a peace deal. I don't think these moves are just rhetoric, War exhaustion in DC. Interesting how the Ukrainian lines hold up with these probing attacks, what are their reserves?

    https://twitter.com/otiknuks/status/1618890838901420033?s=20&t=fQ7HdJcDxlKV-u750wch9A

    Replies: @AnonfromTN, @Greasy William

    War exhaustion in DC

    The United States is, to borrow a phrase from Nasrallah, “weak as a spider’s web”. The US has no stomach for long military engagements.

    Interesting how the Ukrainian lines hold up with these probing attacks, what are their reserves

    They have been used up saving Zelensky’s ego in Bakhmut

    The Rand piece shows how overextended the US empire is, and the recession hasn’t even hit yet. It’s clear that Washington sees China as its primary rival and that a long conflict makes “containing” China more difficult.

    But it also isn’t that simple. There is an emotional component here: Russia is absolutely reviled by the shitlib base of the Democratic party. A Russian victory would be viewed by the CNN/MSNBC viewing portion of the US population as a precursor to the eventual establishment of a dystopian MAGA dictatorship in the US. What’s more, Biden’s own cabinet likely contains many who also share the same delusion.

    And one other thing: the US has already put its prestige on the line. There are no take backs for that. If Russia comes out of this war with major territorial gains and a demilitarized, landlocked, Zelensky free Ukraine that is economically dependent on Russia, that will be a clear and overwhelming defeat for the United States and the “rules based international order”. For the US, there is no easy way out of this

    • Replies: @A123
    @Greasy William


    The US has no stomach for long military engagements.
     
    The U.S. has not engaged. I find your statement puzzling.

    Name a *regular* U.S. military regiment that has been fully deployed in Ukraine.

    the US has already put its prestige on the line
     
    Whhaaaaaaat?

    As an American, I can tell you this is *not* the case. This is a relatively painless walk away. The U.S. has little to no prestige on the line.

    Yes. The U.S. dumped in vast amounts of cash, as directed by the European WEF. However, there has not been the slightest hint of larger commitment.

    Thirty Abrams tanks next year is PR shill speak. Not-The-President Biden will almost certainly be forced out before his son's friends receive the tanks.

    PEACE 😇
  414. @Mikel
    @HeavilyMarbledSteak


    you and Bashi seem to have laid you’re conversation to rest on amicable terms.
     
    I don't know why a religious conversation in the 21st century would have to lead to animosity, at least in this part of the world. People who are sure of their religious beliefs should rather feel pity for someone like me who lost his ability to believe and is unable to recover it. The most probable cause of animosity in such circumstances is the lack of security in those beliefs, I think, which leads to feeling threatened by the simple existence of someone disputing them.

    Besides, I hope not come across as a belligerent atheist, which I'm not. I have no interest whatsoever in convincing anyone about the sad nonexistence of God. On the contrary, I am asking for reasons to believe in it for myself and this inevitably leads to the explanation of my own views, that threaten nodody. In fact, my trying to understand how other people are able to believe means that I am open to the possibility of my being wrong. How many religious people here are open to the possibility that perhaps it is me who is right? Please raise your hands.

    Somehow, I thought that you wouldn't be very sympathetic to attempts to reach God through purely logical arguments, like the one Ivashka presented. That looks very different to the kind of Taoist, experimental approach that you have been defending, if I understood you correctly. Aquinas, by the way, was quite an opposite figure to Lao-Zhe. He was in favor of the death penalty and the extermination of heretics.


    Gradually, however, what was excluded by choice at the outset from the new technique came to be the basis of a new metaphysics.
     
    I don't think that's exactly what happened. Science showed in a very compelling way, much more compelling than pure faith, that many of the things that the Church had been preaching for centuries were false. This inevitably led to doubting all the rest of the religious edifice. Science is inquisitive and skeptical by nature. The clash between science and established religion with immovable dogmas was unavoidable. But I do agree that science cannot totally substitute religion or metaphysics and that is how I think most scientists regard the matter today. Even when Hawkings or Greene reject the idea of God as the cause of the Big Bang, they are implicitly admitting that at that level of scientific inquiry, the existence of phenomena beyond physics is not immediately out of the question.

    Replies: @Sher Singh, @Barbarossa, @HeavilyMarbledSteak, @Coconuts

    The most probable cause of animosity in such circumstances is the lack of security in those beliefs, I think, which leads to feeling threatened by the simple existence of someone disputing them.

    I wonder about moral foundations theory; the liberal atheist or agnostic may often be perceived as a threat to the ‘binding’ foundations of a group or community, i.e. loyalty, authority and sanctity. These foundations tend to be more important to conservatives (apart from libertarians), but their salience has gone into decline, especially in Western societies. Hence the animosity is no longer what it would have been in the past. But they haven’t totally disappeared.

    On the contrary, I am asking for reasons to believe in it for myself and this inevitably leads to the explanation of my own views, that threaten nodody.

    Can’t be 100% certain. There is an interesting book by the evolutionary biologist David Wilson called ‘Darwin’s Cathedral’, about the relationship between religious belief, group selection and reproductive success. This book started drawing attention to the negative correlation between atheism/agnosticism, fertility rate and group fitness.

    Nietzsche seems to have had some intuition about this in relation to the coming of the culture of the ‘Last Man’:

    Zarathustra confronts them with a goal so disgusting that he assumes that it will revolt them – a culture which seeks only passive comfort and routine, avoiding everything that could potentially bring risk, pain, or disappointment…

    Nietzsche warned that the society of the last man could be too barren and decadent to support the growth of healthy human life or great individuals.

    I don’t think that’s exactly what happened.

    I did think HMS was talking about the emergence of philosophical Naturalism, not about Christian teaching based on the content of revelation and the Bible.

    If you take the view that the Natural Sciences rather than rival philosophy or metaphysics was the most important thing in undermining the philosophical teaching of the Church, I think this would be like holding to a strong form of Physicalism or Scientism, plus a strong viewpoint on the history of philosophy. Both of which are going to be in tension with any form of religious belief.

    • Replies: @AP
    @Coconuts

    As usual my thoughts align with your but you express it better then I could have:


    If you take the view that the Natural Sciences rather than rival philosophy or metaphysics was the most important thing in undermining the philosophical teaching of the Church, I think this would be like holding to a strong form of Physicalism or Scientism
     
    There is no conflict between Natural Sciences and the Church (many devout Churchmen have also been scientists, and the history of modern science begins with churchmen), but rather between Scientism and the Church. The idea that there is nothing in the universe other than that which can be systematically observed or measured by evolved apes and the instruments they have created is itself a belief, one that seems to be more fantastic and irrational than belief in God.

    Replies: @Mikel

  415. @Sher Singh
    @HeavilyMarbledSteak

    Your entire spirituality is an attempt to escape the world & its authority and discipline.
    Why do you not also sleep with your mother? Many Jews in the time of Jesus did.
    Part of your cowardice & escapism is believing everyone can be convince or embraced.
    The logical conclusion of this is a fear of death & denial of liberation through war.

    The Christian who dies defending his faith has understood the true nature of existence.

    https://www.manglacharan.com/post/protection-of-cows-guru-hargobind-and-guru-gobind-singh



    Without Rule - Religion has not prospered
    Without Religion there is no confusion
    - Guru Gobind Singh

    The Singh is born from weapons, but is also a Saint.


    https://twitter.com/YungBhujang/status/1135839810390777857


    As for the double edged sword, perhaps on Sikhism it wasn’t meant literally but was more of a metaphor for the sword of spirituality?

     

    Why do you hate the Kirpan which is a physical sword used for a spiritual purpose?

    https://www.manglacharan.com/post/meaning-of-miri-piri-guru-hargobind-sahib-ji

    ਧਰੇ ਤੇਜ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਬਚ ਕਹੇ । ਹਮ ਨੇ ਇਸ ਹਿਤ ਜੁਗ ਅਸਿ ਗਹੇ । ਇਕ ਤੇ ਲੇਂ ਮੀਰਨਿ ਕੀ ਮੀਰੀ । ਦੂਸਰ ਤੇ ਪੀਰਨਿ ਕੀ ਪੀਰੀ ।੨੨।⁣⁣⁣
    The Guru valiantly replied, "For this reason I have adorned two [swords], One is a signifier of the Sovereignty over all Empires [Miran Ki Miri], and the other is a signifier of the Power of Spirituality [Piran Ki Piri]. ⁣⁣⁣
    ⁣⁣⁣
    ਮੀਰੀ ਪੀਰੀ ਦੋਨੋਂ ਧਰੈਂ । ਬਚਹਿ ਸਰਨਿ ਨਤੁ ਜੁਗ ਪਰਹਰੈਂ ।⁣⁣⁣
    I represent both Sovereignty and Spirituality; coming under My sanctuary you may be saved, if not we will take both away from you."⁣⁣⁣
     
    ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫਤਹਿ

    Replies: @Sher Singh, @HeavilyMarbledSteak

    Many things in this world are supposed to be escaped and transcends, not affirmed or engaged with…

    “Escapism” is a slur modernity invented to drag you back down into the muck…it’s a propaganda term, don’t buy into it…

    To that end, I just finished reading Alice in Wonderland and Through the Looking Glass for the third or fourth time, wonderful escapist stuff with deep metaphysical import…

    Have you read them? They shed light on Sikhism, dear Singh..

    • LOL: Sher Singh
  416. @AnonfromTN
    @Mikhail

    Ukrainian win is a fairly tale for the most gullible sheeple. The only purpose of supplying Ukraine with arms is to force the RF to spend as much resources as possible to weaken it. The war is between the US and the RF, Ukraine is a pawn, not a player.

    Replies: @Beckow

    …The war is between the US and the RF, Ukraine is a pawn, not a player.

    Anglos find others to fight their wars since they cant have casualties for domestic reasons. The dumb willingness to be used that so many Ukies display is astounding – they don’t even pay them, or more precisely they pay some Ukies, the ones who are not fighting and dying.

    This is a very basic common sense and national IQ test and Ukies are failing. There is probably no other nation today that is willing to sacrifice its men and destroy itself – for what? Nato bases and a ban on teaching in Russian.

    They are also not weakening Russia – winning wars by definition strengthens a country, that will come back to haunt the Western sponsors when Russia wins, as is very likely.

    • Replies: @AP
    @Beckow


    There is probably no other nation today that is willing to sacrifice its men and destroy itself

     

    The natural collaborator and lackey can’t understand why anyone would fight to keep invaders out of their country.

    They are also not weakening Russia – winning wars by definition strengthens a country
     
    Kind of like how Britain was strengthened by winning World War II, right?

    And Britain and France were strengthened after their World War I victory.

    Have you heard of the concept of Pyrrhic victory?

    I completely agree with this comment by the military expert “Twinkie” who occasionally commented here:

    Prior to this war, I rated Putin’s governance and statesmanship highly – after all, he strengthened the Russian economy and defense after the collapse of the Soviet Union and tangibly increased the Russian standard of living. My evaluation of national leaders is based on a rather simple criteria – has he left the country in a better shape than he found it? And he had… until this war.

    This war has been a severe miscalculation on his part and something of a disaster for the Russian state. Remember the great debacle of our Iraq War (which I frequently refer to as our “Sicilian Expedition”)? Well, the US Army lost 150 armored fighting vehicles (tanks, infantry fighting vehicles, and armored personnel carriers) in eight years of fighting in Iraq. In contrast, the Russian army has lost over 3,000 AFVs in eight months of fighting in Ukraine. And let’s not forget the really vital asset in force generation and projection – the tens of thousands of trained personnel that once manned those vehicles (as John Boyd once said, “people first, ideas second, hardware third”).

    I often quote Edward Luttwak about the logic of power versus force, which is that the use of power often begets more power, but the use of force consumes it. Well, Putin decided to employ direct, coercive force rather than power and influence to bend Ukraine to his will, and it has backfired spectacularly and has consumed a huge amount of force.

    I am not one of these fools, idiots, or the insane who claim to be able to predict the future. I don’t know what the future holds, but I think sober observers can tell that the war has dealt a severe blow to the Russian state, and it is considerably weaker now than when it started the war (this, of course, doesn’t mean someone else – e.g. Ukraine or the United States – is winning, as war is one of those phenomena that are often negative-sum).

     

    Replies: @Beckow

  417. @Dmitry
    @HeavilyMarbledSteak


    placed on a shelf right below AP
     
    You're (with Bashibuzuk, Altan etc) the pro-religious anti-materialist side of the spectrum for this forum, AP is the anti-religious* and materialist side of the spectrum.

    In terms of the user interaction, I reply more to AP's posts to higher percentage than any other user in the forum. So, you can see where the interests are in overlap between users.

    So, for example, Yahya is from Egypt. I don't want to ask him about Islam or "future of the soul", which we know Bashibuzuk is waiting to ask, but I would think probably boring.

    But I was waiting for polite time to ask for his food recommendations without stereotype him too much (the stereotype Arabs know more about food than even Italians) or what he thinks about el-Sisi, which e.g. Bashibuzuk will think probably boring.


    -

    * Although seeing it only in terms of social utility means he is more tolerant than the other people here, about e.g. Mormons. There is the positive side of this viewpoint. But for people that are spiritual, it's strange to see people viewing religion in terms of social and political utility, like saying to romantic people that "love is good because it reduced blood pressure".

    Replies: @Yahya

    But I was waiting for polite time to ask for his food recommendations without stereotype him too much (the stereotype Arabs know more about food than even Italians) or what he thinks about el-Sisi, which e.g. Bashibuzuk will think probably boring.

    Lol, well I never knew Arabs were stereotyped as being knowledgeable about food in Europe. Perhaps that’s because Arab migrants have taken to operating many restaurants there. Even read somewhere that most “Italian” restaurants in Europe are run by Arabs.

    In the Arab world; Syrians are stereotyped as being cooks par excellence. You can find them working in many establishments in Egypt. I can’t say being an Arab gives me special insight into food. I don’t even know how to cook eggs. But I suppose I have some knowledge of Egyptian cuisine. Not sure what you meant by your question though; it’s a bit broad. But if you plan on visiting Egypt; I would recommend the following foods and restaurants.

    [MORE]

    First, in terms of national dishes, the best Egypt has to offer is seafood and grilled meat.

    A) Grilled Meat (Mashweyat)

    The grilled meat (called “mashweyat” in Egyptian Arabic) you can find in every formerly Ottoman territory. The Turks have their variety that’s heavier and more saucy. Arab countries by contrast tend to lighten on the sauces and let the meat do the work. The “mixed grill” dish consists of 4-5 items: kofta, shish tawook, lamb chops, grilled kebab.

    Each you can order on its own. I personally like lamb chops and shish tawook the most. The former you can probably guess its taste. The latter is a marinated chicken dish that tastes a bit like the Indian Chicken Tikka.

    There’s also Shawarma which I probably don’t need to elaborate much on. The best shawarmas you will find in the “Third Worldy” type restaurants in Egypt like “Abu Amar El Soory” and “Semsema”. These types of restaurants are unsanitary, loud and chaotic so I’m not sure if people here can stomach it. Egyptians have sort of developed an immunity that allows them to eat that stuff, but probably its not advised if you are a foreigner on vacation. On the other hand, there are some clean restaurants like “Shaweremer” which you can find decent shawarma. For mixed grill “Manoufi” is the best, though it is a third world restaurant.

    B) Grilled Fish (Samak Mashwi)

    Egyptian seafood is totally unique, delicious and extremely underrated. After 5,000 years of living next to the Mediterranean and Red Sea, I believe Egyptians have perfected the art of seafood cooking. You’ll only find this style of spice in Lebanon, which copied the recipe from Egypt. This is why if you are in Egypt you definitely need to try Egyptian-style seafood. Unlike grilled meat, you won’t find this dish in any Western restaurant.

    I recommend the “Grilled Whole Fish” or “Samak Mashwi” in Arabic. You can choose any fish from Sea Bass to Grey Mullet and Sea Bream. Just tell the waiter “Mashwi” and he will grill it in the Egyptian style. You can also try fried fish, though I personally prefer grilled fish. Also the “butterfly shrimp” is quite exquisite.

    The best seafood restaurant I’ve tried is out in the Sinai, in a town called Ismailia. It’s about 2 hours from Cairo though. The most convenient restaurant in Cairo for fish is called “Asmak”. This website instructs you how to cook fish the Egyptian style if you’d like to cook at home: https://www.cookingchanneltv.com/recipes/samak-mashwi-grilled-fish-with-an-egyptian-twist-2273461

    If there’s any dish I’d recommend, it’s the grilled sea bream. Just a must really, if you go to Egypt without having tried it, your visit will have been for nought.

    C) Koshary

    There are other national dishes that are less luxurious and more “Staple Food” go poor Egyptians. They can be tasty in their own way, but there nothing special. The most common staple food is called koshary, it consist of basic carbohydrate items like lentils, rice, and pasta with tomato sauce and garlic.

    D) Molokheya

    The other item is called “Molokheya”. My guess is that many foreigners will find it too weird and exotic. You can already see by its appearance that it’s odd and weird – which it is. I personally like it, though I’m not sure people unaccustomed to it would. But it’s very popular in Egypt. It’s typically eaten with chicken and rice.

    E) Fava Beans (“Fool”)

    Another is called “fool” or “fava beans”, usually accompanied by “Tameya” or “Falafel”. It’s a staple breakfast for Egyptians. I love this dish, it’s simple but tasty. It tastes somewhat similar to beans found elsewhere, but with an Egyptian flavor. Would recommend it.

    My friend told me about this company that does tour guides of local Egyptian cuisine for tourists. I personally haven’t tried it but it looks professional, I’ll leave the link here: https://belliesenroute.com

    ————

    In terms of restaurants, there are many nice high-end restaurants in Egypt that are tasty and affordable. They aren’t particularly Egyptian though. Mostly serving international cushioned to upper class Egyptians. These restaurants are up to first world standards in cleanliness and décor, so you needn’t worry about food safety issues like in Egyptian restaurants.

    My favorite high-end restaurants in Cairo:

    1) Estro (Italian)
    2) Saachi (Japanese + International)
    3) Hana Barbecque (Korean)
    4) The Moghul Room (Indian)
    5) Al Beiruti (Lebanese)
    6) Mayrig (Armenian)

    The first one, “Estro” is my favorite. It’s owned and operated by a Sicilian lady who is always there and knows the customers by name. It’s located in a rooftop in an affluent Cairo suburb called Maadi. You can see large chunks of the city from the roof. Very peaceful and nice. The garlic shrimp is my favorite dish there.

    Hana Barbecque is owned and operated by a Korean lady who is married to an Egyptian. Food there is also fantastic, best Korean I’ve tasted thus far.

    Moghul room has some cool Indian-Islamic style architecture. The cutlery, plates and cups are also designed in a cool fashion. Would recommend as well.

    Saachi is very elite, serves Sushi and Wagyu beef and the like.

    I’ll get to Egypt’s government in another post.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @Yahya


    can’t say being an Arab gives me special insight into food. I don’t even know how to cook eggs

     

    There is a very disappointing sentence, even I feel hurt by this betrayal of the Arabian tradition.

    I suppose I have some knowledge of Egyptian cuisine.
     
    Do they use mainly olive oil in Egypt. One of the unusual things I read recently, is that in many countries in North Africa where the olive oil industry is booming, they don't traditionally eat olive oil. For example, Morocco.

    There is one of the questions we discussed earlier. Is Egypt the Levant or North Africa? I was sure it is Levant, but you thought it was not Levant. If olive oil is traditional in Egypt, this could be evidence Egypt is Levant and vice-versa.


    Arabs were stereotyped as being knowledgeable about food in Europe
     
    If you look in bookshops in Europe, there are the most popular cooking books are often relating to Middle Eastern food.

    I've been in Israel, so obviously I know Arabs (whichever their religion) are experts about food. It's the national obsession of the Middle Eastern people. Turkey is also famous for food, and food diversity (as center of the Ottoman empire), so this is perhaps more regional than ethnic (Turks vs Arabs).

    My experiences in other Eastern Mediterranean Greece and Cyprus was not so special in terms of food though I still think Greeks have quite good food, not so distant from the Middle East.

    People are usually talented in different areas. The most nerdy engineer in the office, will probably not be promoted to management. But the best manager, will probably not be the most technically expert employee in the company.

    Perhaps nationalities can remind in this. Arabs are not good in politics/society organization, to say this mildly (some of the worst politics in the world), but the best countries for political organization (i.e. Switzerland, New Zealand, Great Britain, Norway), are not always the best in food.

    In the post-Ottoman society, lack of attainments in politics, have been surely compensated in some other areas. Cooking expertise seems one of the most obvious.

    The worse the politics, more dictators and secret police, perhaps implies people hide in the kitchen, developing perfect recipes for za'atar.

    I also think the traditional Arab kitchen, has healthy recipes, at least when they use traditional ingredients only. Lebanese cuisine looks like somekind of health shop.


    “Molokheya”. My guess is that many foreigners will find it too weird and exotic.

     

    I never saw this before, but it could be popular for foreigners. If you begin a restaurant in Greenwich village selling this, it will probably become a new fashion potential. This green color implies it is healthy. And it's not famous, so it would be the new cool food.


    Koshary

    There are other national dishes that are less luxurious and more “Staple Food” go poor Egyptians.
     

    I remember an Israeli YouTuber I subscribed to talking about this recently https://youtu.be/1SypPL_z444?t=213. although probably he doesn't know much what he is talking about, as he talks a bit like stereotypical tourist about Egypt. In New York, I think this could also become a fastfood, popular with celebrities. Imagine some chains of Koshary in Brooklyn.

    Replies: @Yahya, @Mr. Hack, @Yahya

  418. Victoria Nuland’s Role

    Informative overview, which includes follow-up on an excellent take down of the German foreign minister and Zelensky:

  419. Kit Klarenberg
    @KitKlarenberg
    Fascinating new RAND report urges Washington to get the hell out of dodge in Ukraine, as “US interests would be best served by avoiding a protracted conflict,” and “costs and risks of a long war…outweigh the possible benefits”!

    [MORE]

  420. @Beckow
    @AnonfromTN


    ...The war is between the US and the RF, Ukraine is a pawn, not a player.
     
    Anglos find others to fight their wars since they cant have casualties for domestic reasons. The dumb willingness to be used that so many Ukies display is astounding - they don't even pay them, or more precisely they pay some Ukies, the ones who are not fighting and dying.

    This is a very basic common sense and national IQ test and Ukies are failing. There is probably no other nation today that is willing to sacrifice its men and destroy itself - for what? Nato bases and a ban on teaching in Russian.

    They are also not weakening Russia - winning wars by definition strengthens a country, that will come back to haunt the Western sponsors when Russia wins, as is very likely.

    Replies: @AP

    There is probably no other nation today that is willing to sacrifice its men and destroy itself

    The natural collaborator and lackey can’t understand why anyone would fight to keep invaders out of their country.

    They are also not weakening Russia – winning wars by definition strengthens a country

    Kind of like how Britain was strengthened by winning World War II, right?

    And Britain and France were strengthened after their World War I victory.

    Have you heard of the concept of Pyrrhic victory?

    I completely agree with this comment by the military expert “Twinkie” who occasionally commented here:

    Prior to this war, I rated Putin’s governance and statesmanship highly – after all, he strengthened the Russian economy and defense after the collapse of the Soviet Union and tangibly increased the Russian standard of living. My evaluation of national leaders is based on a rather simple criteria – has he left the country in a better shape than he found it? And he had… until this war.

    This war has been a severe miscalculation on his part and something of a disaster for the Russian state. Remember the great debacle of our Iraq War (which I frequently refer to as our “Sicilian Expedition”)? Well, the US Army lost 150 armored fighting vehicles (tanks, infantry fighting vehicles, and armored personnel carriers) in eight years of fighting in Iraq. In contrast, the Russian army has lost over 3,000 AFVs in eight months of fighting in Ukraine. And let’s not forget the really vital asset in force generation and projection – the tens of thousands of trained personnel that once manned those vehicles (as John Boyd once said, “people first, ideas second, hardware third”).

    I often quote Edward Luttwak about the logic of power versus force, which is that the use of power often begets more power, but the use of force consumes it. Well, Putin decided to employ direct, coercive force rather than power and influence to bend Ukraine to his will, and it has backfired spectacularly and has consumed a huge amount of force.

    I am not one of these fools, idiots, or the insane who claim to be able to predict the future. I don’t know what the future holds, but I think sober observers can tell that the war has dealt a severe blow to the Russian state, and it is considerably weaker now than when it started the war (this, of course, doesn’t mean someone else – e.g. Ukraine or the United States – is winning, as war is one of those phenomena that are often negative-sum).

    • Replies: @Beckow
    @AP


    Britain and France were strengthened after their World War I victory.
     
    Absolutely, they were strengthened - they dominated Europe as almost never before. France in particular was a big winner of WW1. Why would winning a war make you weaker? That is just stupid wishful throw-away nonsense.

    Pyrrhic victory
     
    You are stuck on this rather infantile concept that has no similarity to today's situation. Pyrrha invaded Italy and won 1-2 battles but lost so many men and equipment that he had to withdraw. If you think that Russia will run out of men and weapons right on its own borders you are living in a lala land. Pyrrha had serious logistics issues to resupply his troops, do you see Russia as experiencing something similar? Why would they. Your analogy is literally retarded - a shallow, uneducated quip to make yourself feel better. Instead you sound like a moron. Putin=Pyrrha, right, how incredibly stupid can you be.

    Replies: @AP, @Emil Nikola Richard

  421. @Coconuts
    @Mikel


    The most probable cause of animosity in such circumstances is the lack of security in those beliefs, I think, which leads to feeling threatened by the simple existence of someone disputing them.
     
    I wonder about moral foundations theory; the liberal atheist or agnostic may often be perceived as a threat to the 'binding' foundations of a group or community, i.e. loyalty, authority and sanctity. These foundations tend to be more important to conservatives (apart from libertarians), but their salience has gone into decline, especially in Western societies. Hence the animosity is no longer what it would have been in the past. But they haven't totally disappeared.

    On the contrary, I am asking for reasons to believe in it for myself and this inevitably leads to the explanation of my own views, that threaten nodody.
     
    Can't be 100% certain. There is an interesting book by the evolutionary biologist David Wilson called 'Darwin's Cathedral', about the relationship between religious belief, group selection and reproductive success. This book started drawing attention to the negative correlation between atheism/agnosticism, fertility rate and group fitness.

    Nietzsche seems to have had some intuition about this in relation to the coming of the culture of the 'Last Man':

    Zarathustra confronts them with a goal so disgusting that he assumes that it will revolt them – a culture which seeks only passive comfort and routine, avoiding everything that could potentially bring risk, pain, or disappointment...

    Nietzsche warned that the society of the last man could be too barren and decadent to support the growth of healthy human life or great individuals.
     

    I don’t think that’s exactly what happened.
     
    I did think HMS was talking about the emergence of philosophical Naturalism, not about Christian teaching based on the content of revelation and the Bible.

    If you take the view that the Natural Sciences rather than rival philosophy or metaphysics was the most important thing in undermining the philosophical teaching of the Church, I think this would be like holding to a strong form of Physicalism or Scientism, plus a strong viewpoint on the history of philosophy. Both of which are going to be in tension with any form of religious belief.

    Replies: @AP

    As usual my thoughts align with your but you express it better then I could have:

    If you take the view that the Natural Sciences rather than rival philosophy or metaphysics was the most important thing in undermining the philosophical teaching of the Church, I think this would be like holding to a strong form of Physicalism or Scientism

    There is no conflict between Natural Sciences and the Church (many devout Churchmen have also been scientists, and the history of modern science begins with churchmen), but rather between Scientism and the Church. The idea that there is nothing in the universe other than that which can be systematically observed or measured by evolved apes and the instruments they have created is itself a belief, one that seems to be more fantastic and irrational than belief in God.

    • Thanks: Coconuts
    • Replies: @Mikel
    @AP


    The idea that there is nothing in the universe other than that which can be systematically observed or measured by evolved apes and the instruments they have created is itself a belief, one that seems to be more fantastic and irrational than belief in God.
     
    I agree with the first part of this sentence and I have myself said on this blog in the past that that is an irrational belief. But the last part of the sentence is more problematic. That our brains are unable to fully understand the universe and anything that may lie beyond does not logically lead to embracing the myths that our ancestors used as an explanation when they were even more ignorant than us. Besides, how rational is it to embrace precisely the myths of your cultural tradition when, as AnonfromTN says, there are so many other contradictory myths to choose from?

    I've done quite a lot of science reading and my impression is that top scientists, especially theoretical physicists, are more aware than anyone of the limits of our understanding because that is what they deal with daily in their jobs. But it's true that some scientists seem to operate under the assumption that everything will eventually be understood by the human species if we just keep investigating. Absent strong IQ augmentation, I don't have such a hope. And even then I'm not sure how much a mammal brain will ever be able to grasp the deepest realities.

    Replies: @AP

  422. Prior to this war, I rated Putin’s governance and statesmanship highly – after all, he strengthened the Russian economy and defense after the collapse of the Soviet Union and tangibly increased the Russian standard of living. My evaluation of national leaders is based on a rather simple criteria – has he left the country in a better shape than he found it? And he had… until this war.

    Strong disagree. Putin has always been a terrible leader. Yeltsin shepherded the country through the chaos and misery of the 90s and left Putin with a rapidly recovering country and a clear path towards greater reform. But not only did Putin not continue the reformist path, he reversed it due to his obsession with centralizing control. Had Putin continued on Yeltsin’s path, I would expect Russia’s current GDP to be at least 50% greater than it currently is.

    As for the war, the losses Russia has suffered don’t matter because Russians don’t care about losses. The war also has not internationally isolated Russia, it has cut it off from the West for the time being but the West is not the entire world and the non Anglo Western countries seem eager to restore relations with Russsia ASAP. Meanwhile, if Russia wins not only does it gain population, energy and industry but it dramatically weakens the international influence of the US, Russia’s main rival.

    • Replies: @AP
    @Greasy William


    Strong disagree. Putin has always been a terrible leader. Yeltsin shepherded the country through the chaos and misery of the 90s
     
    The Russian economy didn’t do well under Yeltsin in the 90s and crashed further in ‘98 (making 1999 a great year for buying a flat in Moscow).

    left Putin with a rapidly recovering country and a clear path towards greater reform. But not only did Putin not continue the reformist path
     
    The idea that Putin opposed the oligarchs that flourished under Yeltsin is of course a myth; what he did was stabilize the system, kicked out particularly oligarchs who weren’t team players and were bad for stability, and enabled a lot of the wealth to trickle down to regular people, such that Russians were probably the wealthiest they had been in their history. But the system remained in place: if for example an upstart became wealthy and successful he would be forced to sell to one of the established oligarch interests. But this wouldn’t matter much for regular people.

    Oil helped a lot of course but there are other places with oil where most people do poorly.


    As for the war, the losses Russia has suffered don’t matter because Russians don’t care about losses

     

    Whether or not they care isn’t as important as the fact that Russia has lost a huge number of equipment (thousands of fighting vehicles, artillery pieces, dozens of aircraft, their Black Sea Fleet flagship) and many well trained men. The mass deaths of prisoners might be a positive thing from an amoral perspective (don’t have to pay for their housing anymore if they are dead in a field outside Bakhmut) but also thousands of elite paratroopers and other normal forces have been killed or permanently maimed.

    Meanwhile what has this cost the USA? 6% of the defense budget, much of which is not cash but the value of equipment that had been gathering dust in storage but which is now used to decimate the Russian military. Without the loss of any American lives.


    Meanwhile, if Russia wins not only does it gain population, energy and industry
     
    The population gain is minimal, most people flee the Russians, you’ll have a lot of pensioners who couldn’t flee left behind. I guess the money saved by not having to house inmates will be used to feed the new population.

    If it’s small enough*, Western Ukraine free of Russia will have more people than before, and places like Poland will add millions of young educated hardworking assimilable Slavs to their population.

    The industry will be wrecked during the process of the war. Russia’s only real gain would be some more rich agricultural lands. Not worth all the losses in men, equipment, economy. At best it will be like French and British victory in World War I. “Liberation” of Alsace and getting some of Germany’s African colonies wasn’t worth it.

    *In the extremely unlikely event that Russia takes all the East and South or even Kiev. Most likely is a stalemate, with Russia maybe taking Bakhmut or even Kramatorsk, Ukraine taking another village or three elsewhere. Wouldn’t rule out Ukrainian breakthrough into the Crimean corridor.

    Replies: @Yahya, @Dmitry

    , @AnonfromTN
    @Greasy William

    The facts do not support your claims. Russian population loss during “reforms” of 1990s equaled losses during WWII. Continuation of Yeltsin”s course would have exacerbated national catastrophe.

    Replies: @Jazman, @Greasy William

  423. @A123
    @songbird


    High probability that the West’s embrace of gays has made corporate espionage easier.
     
    Extorting someone with accepted, even rewarded, behaviour cannot be be a liability Those who are secretly heterosexual might be at risk...

    One can imagine two het guys getting together to watch football reporting to the corporation that they are engaging in an illicit liaison behind their wives' backs.

    PEACE 😇

    Replies: @songbird, @Emil Nikola Richard

    Getting together with another guy to watch a football game is not gay?

    • Thanks: Barbarossa
    • LOL: A123
    • Replies: @A123
    @Emil Nikola Richard


    Getting together with another guy to watch a football game is not gay?
     
    Meeting at a sports bar to watch a game with someone is not inherently gay.

    How many gay men go to Hooters [MORE]?

    I suppose it happens, but that would by atypical.

    PEACE 😇



    https://mms.businesswire.com/media/20141229005400/en/446845/5/GMOFE_image.jpg

    Replies: @Emil Nikola Richard

  424. @LondonBob
    @songbird

    A lot to be said for the theory of the female egg and male egg in the womb merging with female traits remaining.

    Of course it is also a mental illness.

    https://kirkegaard.substack.com/p/homosexuality-is-a-mental-illness

    Replies: @Emil Nikola Richard

    Did you read Scott Alexander’s thing on DSM classifications and the pedophile tendency of homosexuals? It was one of the most unintentionally funny things in a year.

    Even a homophilic professional psychiatrist cannot explain why homosexuals are not mentally ill and pedophiles are mentally ill. He would like to do this as much as Einstein wanted a unified field theory for galaxies and particles.

    • Replies: @Yahya
    @Emil Nikola Richard


    Even a homophilic professional psychiatrist cannot explain why homosexuals are not mentally ill and pedophiles are mentally ill.
     
    The homo is lusting over grown men. The pedo is lusting over children. That’s the key difference.

    To some extent the moral opposition to homos and pedos is socially constructed. There is no reason other than a visceral instinct of wrongness. But for kids, they are more vulnerable to abuse than adults, that’s why a pedo is scum while a homo is just weird.

    Replies: @Emil Nikola Richard

  425. @Greasy William

    Prior to this war, I rated Putin’s governance and statesmanship highly – after all, he strengthened the Russian economy and defense after the collapse of the Soviet Union and tangibly increased the Russian standard of living. My evaluation of national leaders is based on a rather simple criteria – has he left the country in a better shape than he found it? And he had… until this war.
     
    Strong disagree. Putin has always been a terrible leader. Yeltsin shepherded the country through the chaos and misery of the 90s and left Putin with a rapidly recovering country and a clear path towards greater reform. But not only did Putin not continue the reformist path, he reversed it due to his obsession with centralizing control. Had Putin continued on Yeltsin's path, I would expect Russia's current GDP to be at least 50% greater than it currently is.

    As for the war, the losses Russia has suffered don't matter because Russians don't care about losses. The war also has not internationally isolated Russia, it has cut it off from the West for the time being but the West is not the entire world and the non Anglo Western countries seem eager to restore relations with Russsia ASAP. Meanwhile, if Russia wins not only does it gain population, energy and industry but it dramatically weakens the international influence of the US, Russia's main rival.

    Replies: @AP, @AnonfromTN

    Strong disagree. Putin has always been a terrible leader. Yeltsin shepherded the country through the chaos and misery of the 90s

    The Russian economy didn’t do well under Yeltsin in the 90s and crashed further in ‘98 (making 1999 a great year for buying a flat in Moscow).

    left Putin with a rapidly recovering country and a clear path towards greater reform. But not only did Putin not continue the reformist path

    The idea that Putin opposed the oligarchs that flourished under Yeltsin is of course a myth; what he did was stabilize the system, kicked out particularly oligarchs who weren’t team players and were bad for stability, and enabled a lot of the wealth to trickle down to regular people, such that Russians were probably the wealthiest they had been in their history. But the system remained in place: if for example an upstart became wealthy and successful he would be forced to sell to one of the established oligarch interests. But this wouldn’t matter much for regular people.

    Oil helped a lot of course but there are other places with oil where most people do poorly.

    As for the war, the losses Russia has suffered don’t matter because Russians don’t care about losses

    Whether or not they care isn’t as important as the fact that Russia has lost a huge number of equipment (thousands of fighting vehicles, artillery pieces, dozens of aircraft, their Black Sea Fleet flagship) and many well trained men. The mass deaths of prisoners might be a positive thing from an amoral perspective (don’t have to pay for their housing anymore if they are dead in a field outside Bakhmut) but also thousands of elite paratroopers and other normal forces have been killed or permanently maimed.

    Meanwhile what has this cost the USA? 6% of the defense budget, much of which is not cash but the value of equipment that had been gathering dust in storage but which is now used to decimate the Russian military. Without the loss of any American lives.

    Meanwhile, if Russia wins not only does it gain population, energy and industry

    The population gain is minimal, most people flee the Russians, you’ll have a lot of pensioners who couldn’t flee left behind. I guess the money saved by not having to house inmates will be used to feed the new population.

    If it’s small enough*, Western Ukraine free of Russia will have more people than before, and places like Poland will add millions of young educated hardworking assimilable Slavs to their population.

    The industry will be wrecked during the process of the war. Russia’s only real gain would be some more rich agricultural lands. Not worth all the losses in men, equipment, economy. At best it will be like French and British victory in World War I. “Liberation” of Alsace and getting some of Germany’s African colonies wasn’t worth it.

    *In the extremely unlikely event that Russia takes all the East and South or even Kiev. Most likely is a stalemate, with Russia maybe taking Bakhmut or even Kramatorsk, Ukraine taking another village or three elsewhere. Wouldn’t rule out Ukrainian breakthrough into the Crimean corridor.

    • Replies: @Yahya
    @AP


    The idea that Putin opposed the oligarchs that flourished under Yeltsin is of course a myth; what he did was stabilize the system,
     
    Putler’s main defect is that he doesn’t care about anyone but himself. He is relatively smart and well-read. He wants to go down in the history books as Putin The Great. He doesn’t care if thousands of Russians and Ukrainians have to die to achieve his ambitions.

    I lost all respect for him when he wore that $14,000 jacket to the Moscow rally shortly after launching the “Special Militray Opertaion”. Subjecting his people to poverty and Ukrainians to bombs; but wearing some designer jacket that costs the average Russian 12 months worth of salary. Lol.

    , @Dmitry
    @AP


    wealth to trickle down to regular people,
     
    More money was coming, but they were also receiving more money. So, it's not sure the proportion of money they were cutting from the budget was reducing, it's possible it was increasing, this information will be not clear.

    There was the attainment of more order or stability in the society. For big mafia, it's not their self-interest to allow small mafia. So, there was reduction of small mafia. As they say, the small corruption was reduced, but big corruption increased.

    Another thing is religion of the upper class is to move money away from Russia, which is not condemnable (it was rational), but it has been an increasingly strong culture of the upper class, so most of the children (also many parents) of upper class has voluntarily exiled. Voluntary exile has even become the status symbol of being elite. This isn't originating with Putin, but was common in Yeltsin's time. However, the moving money away from Russia increased in the 2000s, as partly there was far more money as the oil price increased by multiple times, it's also likely the proportion increased as the general increase in the quantity of money would cover this.


    wealthiest they had been in their history.

     

    Compared to Soviet times when the investments were originating, most of the public services (schools, hospitals, universities) have decayed.

    It's not exactly the government's responsibility. But as the time extends from the government who had invested (before 1991), the decay was becoming more obvious. So, when you compare the universities to Western universities. It feels like you had some kind of "hazing".

    When you see the hospital you were born in, you can say like Tupac "I came from the gutter". But actually the hospital was better in the past. It's because there has been decades without adequate investment in the hospital, so even a hospital which was clean and attractive in 1978, will not look attractive in 2017 if you don't invest in it.

    This is "optimization", but it's not such easy to trust optimization to invest the money in a better area.

    So, when a company is doing "optimization", you as investor will hope they then e.g. re-invest the money to build more assembly lines. But this "optimization" in the Russian public services, is often not to re-distribute money to another area of the project. You can't trust what is the end stage of the money that is optimized. When the person doing "optimization" is famous for their golf courses in Spain.

    There is also very strong increase in the inequality, especially regional inequality. This is original to the 1990s, when most of the level of inequality originates, but it has extended in the last years continued in a rapid speed (1991 was not so long in the past).

    And there was no investment for the future - for future industries. We discussed this many times in the forum, but you are a Putin supporter until this year, not necessarily without rationality (if they didn't strip so much, the war would be going differently now, not so successfully in Ukraine's perspective).

    And there was the culture and moral decline since even 1999. You can compared the television in 1999 to 2019. There was a very significant decline, accelerating after the 1990s.

    There is also educational decline. This is partly objectively, you can see the EGE exams. A lot is because of the retiring of teachers from Soviet times. Soviet times had much higher levels of pedagogy on average. This isn't responsibility of the current authorities. But they didn't seem to care about this trend.

    My view has been that Putin can be justified as pilot to the extent he doesn't crash the plane into the ground (i.e. before February), but this is justification is accepting stripping a lot of the parts from the plane.

    I rated Putin’s governance and statesmanship highly – after all, he strengthened the Russian economy and defense after the collapse of the Soviet Union and tangibly increased the Russian standard of living. My evaluation of national leaders is based on a rather simple criteria – has he left the country in a better shape than he found it?
     

    Well it doesn't make sense. Let's say in the hypothetical sense. If you lose a lot of freedoms, but the GDP increases. Is it correct to say the situation is better?

    Also, there is the topic of improvement relative to time, situation and potential. If there is a slight improvement, but you have a lot of resources and a lot of time. Is this improvement very relevant?

    Also, if the country improves, but there is a indication politician is not necessarily responsible for this. Then do you say "the evaluation of the leader is positive". For example, if the price of Nigeria's oil exports increase, is this the responsibility of politicians, or the international market?

    The comparison has to be relative to the other possible future situations and requires a lot of knowledge about each area of the country which is a government's responsibility (I'm not saying I have any of this knowledge).

  426. @Emil Nikola Richard
    @LondonBob

    Did you read Scott Alexander's thing on DSM classifications and the pedophile tendency of homosexuals? It was one of the most unintentionally funny things in a year.

    Even a homophilic professional psychiatrist cannot explain why homosexuals are not mentally ill and pedophiles are mentally ill. He would like to do this as much as Einstein wanted a unified field theory for galaxies and particles.

    Replies: @Yahya

    Even a homophilic professional psychiatrist cannot explain why homosexuals are not mentally ill and pedophiles are mentally ill.

    The homo is lusting over grown men. The pedo is lusting over children. That’s the key difference.

    To some extent the moral opposition to homos and pedos is socially constructed. There is no reason other than a visceral instinct of wrongness. But for kids, they are more vulnerable to abuse than adults, that’s why a pedo is scum while a homo is just weird.

    • Replies: @Emil Nikola Richard
    @Yahya

    In Scott Alexander's DSM lusting after barely pubescent 14 year old boys is pedophilia. Also he dates trannies.

    It can be confusing to keep the rows and columns straight on these internet discussion topics.

  427. @AP
    @Greasy William


    Strong disagree. Putin has always been a terrible leader. Yeltsin shepherded the country through the chaos and misery of the 90s
     
    The Russian economy didn’t do well under Yeltsin in the 90s and crashed further in ‘98 (making 1999 a great year for buying a flat in Moscow).

    left Putin with a rapidly recovering country and a clear path towards greater reform. But not only did Putin not continue the reformist path
     
    The idea that Putin opposed the oligarchs that flourished under Yeltsin is of course a myth; what he did was stabilize the system, kicked out particularly oligarchs who weren’t team players and were bad for stability, and enabled a lot of the wealth to trickle down to regular people, such that Russians were probably the wealthiest they had been in their history. But the system remained in place: if for example an upstart became wealthy and successful he would be forced to sell to one of the established oligarch interests. But this wouldn’t matter much for regular people.

    Oil helped a lot of course but there are other places with oil where most people do poorly.


    As for the war, the losses Russia has suffered don’t matter because Russians don’t care about losses

     

    Whether or not they care isn’t as important as the fact that Russia has lost a huge number of equipment (thousands of fighting vehicles, artillery pieces, dozens of aircraft, their Black Sea Fleet flagship) and many well trained men. The mass deaths of prisoners might be a positive thing from an amoral perspective (don’t have to pay for their housing anymore if they are dead in a field outside Bakhmut) but also thousands of elite paratroopers and other normal forces have been killed or permanently maimed.

    Meanwhile what has this cost the USA? 6% of the defense budget, much of which is not cash but the value of equipment that had been gathering dust in storage but which is now used to decimate the Russian military. Without the loss of any American lives.


    Meanwhile, if Russia wins not only does it gain population, energy and industry
     
    The population gain is minimal, most people flee the Russians, you’ll have a lot of pensioners who couldn’t flee left behind. I guess the money saved by not having to house inmates will be used to feed the new population.

    If it’s small enough*, Western Ukraine free of Russia will have more people than before, and places like Poland will add millions of young educated hardworking assimilable Slavs to their population.

    The industry will be wrecked during the process of the war. Russia’s only real gain would be some more rich agricultural lands. Not worth all the losses in men, equipment, economy. At best it will be like French and British victory in World War I. “Liberation” of Alsace and getting some of Germany’s African colonies wasn’t worth it.

    *In the extremely unlikely event that Russia takes all the East and South or even Kiev. Most likely is a stalemate, with Russia maybe taking Bakhmut or even Kramatorsk, Ukraine taking another village or three elsewhere. Wouldn’t rule out Ukrainian breakthrough into the Crimean corridor.

    Replies: @Yahya, @Dmitry

    The idea that Putin opposed the oligarchs that flourished under Yeltsin is of course a myth; what he did was stabilize the system,

    Putler’s main defect is that he doesn’t care about anyone but himself. He is relatively smart and well-read. He wants to go down in the history books as Putin The Great. He doesn’t care if thousands of Russians and Ukrainians have to die to achieve his ambitions.

    I lost all respect for him when he wore that $14,000 jacket to the Moscow rally shortly after launching the “Special Militray Opertaion”. Subjecting his people to poverty and Ukrainians to bombs; but wearing some designer jacket that costs the average Russian 12 months worth of salary. Lol.

    • Agree: AP
  428. @S
    @songbird


    And it’s instructive in itself how a lot of these sci-fi authors got things very wrong about the future, and how nobody predicted the fall of the Berlin Wall.
     
    Kubrick in his 1968 film 2001; A Space Odyssey seems to hint that there had been a rapprochement between the East and West in the future, ie there is no mention of Communism, though the fate of the Berlin Wall is not specifically addressed.


    https://youtu.be/-fHMvdLiqk8

    Replies: @songbird

    Thanks. The sequel 2010 also had Soviets in it (or I’m pretty sure they were Soviets.) The Americans traveled aboard the Soviet space ship to the abandoned ship from the first movie.

    [MORE]

    In that movie, there were clearly tensions between the two groups, but in a way that is keeping with the CoDominium idea. (BTW, I wonder if A123 ever noticed the similarities between the Soviet ship and the Earth battle ships from B5)

    IIRC, the book was serialized in some Soviet scifi mag, and it was a big hit. But then they figured out that Clarke had given the Russian characters the names of dissidents, and they immediately stopped the series. People kept writing to the magazine to find out what happened, so eventually they published a reduced plot of what happened.

    It is interesting that Clarke was anti-Soviet (a lot of writers were pro), I wonder if that was because he was gay. Or maybe because of Afghanistan. I recall that in the original publication of Childhood’s End (early ’50s), there was some note at the beginning denouncing communism or atheism or something, but I would guess that was boilerplate, due to the irreligious plot, one of Clarke’s favorite themes – where man becomes God.

    I remember the television series Stargate SG1 was still pretty big on Russians – I’m not sure the creators were really considering that China was rising and would eclipse Russia.

    In A123’s favorite show, Babylon 5, I think there was some sort of Russian alliance, which was different from the rest of Earth, even though civilization spanned some stars.

    • Replies: @S
    @songbird


    I recall that in the original publication of Childhood’s End (early ’50s), there was some note at the beginning denouncing communism or atheism or something, but I would guess that was boilerplate, due to the irreligious plot, one of Clarke’s favorite themes – where man becomes God.
     
    If I remember right it was Childhood's End which featured 'back to nature' environmentalists who eschewed modern technology. And the invading 'aliens', who hid their physical appearance, in reality had the classical image of a dragon winged Satan. An odd book for the time I suppose.

    Replies: @songbird

  429. @Yahya
    @Emil Nikola Richard


    Even a homophilic professional psychiatrist cannot explain why homosexuals are not mentally ill and pedophiles are mentally ill.
     
    The homo is lusting over grown men. The pedo is lusting over children. That’s the key difference.

    To some extent the moral opposition to homos and pedos is socially constructed. There is no reason other than a visceral instinct of wrongness. But for kids, they are more vulnerable to abuse than adults, that’s why a pedo is scum while a homo is just weird.

    Replies: @Emil Nikola Richard

    In Scott Alexander’s DSM lusting after barely pubescent 14 year old boys is pedophilia. Also he dates trannies.

    It can be confusing to keep the rows and columns straight on these internet discussion topics.

  430. @Greasy William
    @LondonBob


    War exhaustion in DC
     
    The United States is, to borrow a phrase from Nasrallah, "weak as a spider's web". The US has no stomach for long military engagements.

    Interesting how the Ukrainian lines hold up with these probing attacks, what are their reserves
     
    They have been used up saving Zelensky's ego in Bakhmut


    The Rand piece shows how overextended the US empire is, and the recession hasn't even hit yet. It's clear that Washington sees China as its primary rival and that a long conflict makes "containing" China more difficult.

    But it also isn't that simple. There is an emotional component here: Russia is absolutely reviled by the shitlib base of the Democratic party. A Russian victory would be viewed by the CNN/MSNBC viewing portion of the US population as a precursor to the eventual establishment of a dystopian MAGA dictatorship in the US. What's more, Biden's own cabinet likely contains many who also share the same delusion.

    And one other thing: the US has already put its prestige on the line. There are no take backs for that. If Russia comes out of this war with major territorial gains and a demilitarized, landlocked, Zelensky free Ukraine that is economically dependent on Russia, that will be a clear and overwhelming defeat for the United States and the "rules based international order". For the US, there is no easy way out of this

    Replies: @A123

    The US has no stomach for long military engagements.

    The U.S. has not engaged. I find your statement puzzling.

    Name a *regular* U.S. military regiment that has been fully deployed in Ukraine.

    the US has already put its prestige on the line

    Whhaaaaaaat?

    As an American, I can tell you this is *not* the case. This is a relatively painless walk away. The U.S. has little to no prestige on the line.

    Yes. The U.S. dumped in vast amounts of cash, as directed by the European WEF. However, there has not been the slightest hint of larger commitment.

    Thirty Abrams tanks next year is PR shill speak. Not-The-President Biden will almost certainly be forced out before his son’s friends receive the tanks.

    PEACE 😇

  431. My heart really goes out to the Ukrainians who were sent to Birmingham.

    • Replies: @A123
    @songbird


    My heart really goes out to the Ukrainians who were sent to Birmingham.
     
    How did they get to Alabama?

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birmingham,_Alabama

    PEACE 😇

    Replies: @songbird

  432. @AnonfromTN
    @Ivashka the fool

    I know it sounds atheist, but in reality it’s agnostic: there are too many gods to take them seriously.

    Replies: @Another Polish Perspective

    Hermes Trismegistos was said to be a god with thousand faces. The science of gods’ names, present in almost any religion, is a clue that there are fewer gods than their names; Hermes Trismegistos is the spirit and the essence of the phenomenon known as religious syncretism. Some gods are as accommodating as Jesuits were during their mission to China, or even more.

    https://www.asianstudies.org/publications/eaa/archives/the-early-modern-jesuit-mission-to-china-a-marriage-of-faith-and-culture/

    For a similar reason, Kabbalists distinguish between names and true names of God, so in the end only they know who is truly who, or so they claim 😉 In the West, Ursula LeGuin “Earthsea” novels are the less religious and more cultural expression of this obsession with names and their alleged “power” (knowledge of a true name of someone gives you knowledge of and power over him etc).

    • Replies: @songbird
    @Another Polish Perspective


    In the West, Ursula LeGuin “Earthsea” novels are the less religious and more cultural expression of this obsession with names and their alleged “power”
     
    Hawaiians had similar taboos.


    Old Hawaiians saw a name as the property of the name-holder, with a power to help or hurt its owner. A meaning that was too apparent might have attracted evil forces. And, just like in Hawaiian poetry, an allusion was considered more beautiful than a plain statement.
     
    I've always been fascinated by how some Hawaiian names are really, really long - like:
    https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/mbvd/listen-to-the-hawaiian-name-that-is-too-long-for-a-drivers-l

    And that is true of some placenames as well. I wonder if it says anything about HBD - not sure to what extent it is reflected more broadly among Polynesians.

    Anyway, I really recommend reading the whole wiki article about Hawaiian names:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawaiian_name
    , @Another Polish Perspective
    @Another Polish Perspective

    On its surface, the problem of multiple names for a single (godlike) being is so absurd that it can reasonably function only in a fantastic reality as that of LeGuin or of Tolkien (where, at least in his books, "The Enemy" is preferred to "Sauron" when talking, and Valars are rarely named by their own names but are often talked about in plurals, similarly to Biblical "elohim" standing often for God). In religious criticism of the Bible the problem has even led some to believe that the Serpent of Eden, Leviathan and Satan are actually three different beings, which in itself is a good example of a TOO close reading of the Bible.

    Replies: @Sher Singh

  433. @Emil Nikola Richard
    @A123

    Getting together with another guy to watch a football game is not gay?

    Replies: @A123

    Getting together with another guy to watch a football game is not gay?

    Meeting at a sports bar to watch a game with someone is not inherently gay.

    How many gay men go to Hooters [MORE]?

    I suppose it happens, but that would by atypical.

    PEACE 😇

    [MORE]

    • Replies: @Emil Nikola Richard
    @A123


    Meeting at a sports bar to watch a game with someone is not inherently gay.

     

    Correct. If it's just you and your best buddy in his den though watch out. The stupid touchdown dances are included in the NFL highlight videos. That is how gay football is.
  434. @Another Polish Perspective
    @AnonfromTN

    Hermes Trismegistos was said to be a god with thousand faces. The science of gods' names, present in almost any religion, is a clue that there are fewer gods than their names; Hermes Trismegistos is the spirit and the essence of the phenomenon known as religious syncretism. Some gods are as accommodating as Jesuits were during their mission to China, or even more.

    https://www.asianstudies.org/publications/eaa/archives/the-early-modern-jesuit-mission-to-china-a-marriage-of-faith-and-culture/

    For a similar reason, Kabbalists distinguish between names and true names of God, so in the end only they know who is truly who, or so they claim ;) In the West, Ursula LeGuin "Earthsea" novels are the less religious and more cultural expression of this obsession with names and their alleged "power" (knowledge of a true name of someone gives you knowledge of and power over him etc).

    Replies: @songbird, @Another Polish Perspective

    In the West, Ursula LeGuin “Earthsea” novels are the less religious and more cultural expression of this obsession with names and their alleged “power”

    Hawaiians had similar taboos.

    Old Hawaiians saw a name as the property of the name-holder, with a power to help or hurt its owner. A meaning that was too apparent might have attracted evil forces. And, just like in Hawaiian poetry, an allusion was considered more beautiful than a plain statement.

    I’ve always been fascinated by how some Hawaiian names are really, really long – like:
    https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/mbvd/listen-to-the-hawaiian-name-that-is-too-long-for-a-drivers-l

    And that is true of some placenames as well. I wonder if it says anything about HBD – not sure to what extent it is reflected more broadly among Polynesians.

    Anyway, I really recommend reading the whole wiki article about Hawaiian names:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawaiian_name

  435. @Another Polish Perspective
    @AnonfromTN

    Hermes Trismegistos was said to be a god with thousand faces. The science of gods' names, present in almost any religion, is a clue that there are fewer gods than their names; Hermes Trismegistos is the spirit and the essence of the phenomenon known as religious syncretism. Some gods are as accommodating as Jesuits were during their mission to China, or even more.

    https://www.asianstudies.org/publications/eaa/archives/the-early-modern-jesuit-mission-to-china-a-marriage-of-faith-and-culture/

    For a similar reason, Kabbalists distinguish between names and true names of God, so in the end only they know who is truly who, or so they claim ;) In the West, Ursula LeGuin "Earthsea" novels are the less religious and more cultural expression of this obsession with names and their alleged "power" (knowledge of a true name of someone gives you knowledge of and power over him etc).

    Replies: @songbird, @Another Polish Perspective

    On its surface, the problem of multiple names for a single (godlike) being is so absurd that it can reasonably function only in a fantastic reality as that of LeGuin or of Tolkien (where, at least in his books, “The Enemy” is preferred to “Sauron” when talking, and Valars are rarely named by their own names but are often talked about in plurals, similarly to Biblical “elohim” standing often for God). In religious criticism of the Bible the problem has even led some to believe that the Serpent of Eden, Leviathan and Satan are actually three different beings, which in itself is a good example of a TOO close reading of the Bible.

    • Replies: @Sher Singh
    @Another Polish Perspective

    Just accept all the names of God as true, and focus on correct action.

  436. @songbird
    My heart really goes out to the Ukrainians who were sent to Birmingham.

    Replies: @A123

    My heart really goes out to the Ukrainians who were sent to Birmingham.

    How did they get to Alabama?

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birmingham,_Alabama

    PEACE 😇

    • Replies: @songbird
    @A123

    I was speaking of the one with more blacks. Namely, Birmingham, England.

    Replies: @A123

  437. @Sher Singh
    Karlin Discord niggas be like:

    "Politics is just violence" - rant in response
    https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/973087973266567208/1068286173291757579/image.png

    Response:
    https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/973087973266567208/1068286173484687470/image.png

    https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/973087973266567208/1068286559654264872/2D99636E-083B-484F-A34D-94405191304F.png

    https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/710724814603681823/1068418345612877865/image.png

    Never actually called any women whores. Just said it's a larp to call yourself Aryan Indo-European & not follow the religion(s). The response is just Atheist Cultural Christianity/Wignattery.

    Noticed there was still active discussion about me almost a month after my ban.
    Went in there to find screenshots & searched my name.
    Not going to post the worst one

    🤷‍♀️ ⚔️

    Replies: @songbird

    Wonder if there would be any advantage in creating a based programming language called “NIG” or “NIG++”.

    [MORE]

    Right now, the closest thing seems some of Yandex’s python scripts:

  438. @A123
    @songbird


    My heart really goes out to the Ukrainians who were sent to Birmingham.
     
    How did they get to Alabama?

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birmingham,_Alabama

    PEACE 😇

    Replies: @songbird

    I was speaking of the one with more blacks. Namely, Birmingham, England.

    • Replies: @A123
    @songbird


    I was speaking of the one with more blacks. Namely, Birmingham, England.
     
    Birmingham, AL, USA is ~70% African American. I suspect Birmingham, UK is much more pale.

    PEACE 😇

    Replies: @songbird, @Wokechoke

  439. @songbird
    @S

    Thanks. The sequel 2010 also had Soviets in it (or I'm pretty sure they were Soviets.) The Americans traveled aboard the Soviet space ship to the abandoned ship from the first movie.

    In that movie, there were clearly tensions between the two groups, but in a way that is keeping with the CoDominium idea. (BTW, I wonder if A123 ever noticed the similarities between the Soviet ship and the Earth battle ships from B5)

    IIRC, the book was serialized in some Soviet scifi mag, and it was a big hit. But then they figured out that Clarke had given the Russian characters the names of dissidents, and they immediately stopped the series. People kept writing to the magazine to find out what happened, so eventually they published a reduced plot of what happened.

    It is interesting that Clarke was anti-Soviet (a lot of writers were pro), I wonder if that was because he was gay. Or maybe because of Afghanistan. I recall that in the original publication of Childhood's End (early '50s), there was some note at the beginning denouncing communism or atheism or something, but I would guess that was boilerplate, due to the irreligious plot, one of Clarke's favorite themes - where man becomes God.

    I remember the television series Stargate SG1 was still pretty big on Russians - I'm not sure the creators were really considering that China was rising and would eclipse Russia.

    In A123's favorite show, Babylon 5, I think there was some sort of Russian alliance, which was different from the rest of Earth, even though civilization spanned some stars.

    Replies: @S

    I recall that in the original publication of Childhood’s End (early ’50s), there was some note at the beginning denouncing communism or atheism or something, but I would guess that was boilerplate, due to the irreligious plot, one of Clarke’s favorite themes – where man becomes God.

    If I remember right it was Childhood’s End which featured ‘back to nature’ environmentalists who eschewed modern technology. And the invading ‘aliens’, who hid their physical appearance, in reality had the classical image of a dragon winged Satan. An odd book for the time I suppose.

    • Replies: @songbird
    @S


    An odd book for the time I suppose.
     
    Indeed, and he wrote more than one, since he was an odd guy.

    In 1975, he published a book, where a guy from Titan travels to Earth. Specifically at one point, USA, and he receives a compliment because he is a darker black, than everyone else (i.e., the entire population, just about), who are only moderately black, due to racial mixing. The reason, IIRC, he is a darker black is because he is a clone of his father who was a clone of his grandfather, an important pioneer and genius businessman on Titan, who could not reproduce sexually. He goes to Earth to get a clone of himself, and instead (I would say very creepily, due to some subtext and also Clarke's backstory) returns with a clone child of his dead best friend to raise.

    Can't help but think how much its themes seem to reflect or to have predicted the modern regime. And I think part of this convergence is due to the increasing influence of homosexuals.

    And the invading ‘aliens’, who hid their physical appearance, in reality had the classical image of a dragon winged Satan.
     
    This was a funny part of it. On a certain level, he was obviously trying to subvert appearances. (The evil-looking aliens were not really evil) But he was smart enough to understand that this was too ham-fisted. So, at one point, he had a character ask whether the aliens had imprinted themselves into human instincts through some negative experience in prehistoric times - i.e. a negative racial memory. But, then the alien answers that it was instead a racial premonition - that the events of the future, following their arrival, somehow worked their way back in time, to form a negative instinct in the human brain.

    Replies: @S

  440. @HeavilyMarbledSteak
    @Mikel

    Of course it should never lead to animosity:) It never should have historically either.

    I like the Asian religious model of tolerance and syncretism and blurry boundaries, in which religions are all held to point to the same Truth but offer different paths to people with different temperaments.

    In China, everyone was said to be a little bit Buddhist, a little bit Taoist, and a little bit Confucian. When Buddhism first came to China, people simply considered it an Indian version of Taoism - indeed there were some nativist voices that called for rejecting this "foreign import", but on the whole, the pragmatic and syncretist genius of the Chinese won out and integrated it into the fold.

    Thailand is ostensibly Buddhist - but everywhere you go in Bangkok there are shrines and status to Hindu gods. Practically every hotel has this elaborate and wonderful shrine to Brahma which I always used to love examining. And thousands of lovely "spirit houses" paying respect to the local spirits are everywhere, adding a significant animist layer to the local syncretism.

    I am a huge fan of such syncretism and blurry boundaries :) Perhaps we can add Atheism to the syncretist vision as well - it's a big tent :)

    Indeed, there are kinds of atheism that are more spiritual than some kinds of religion (like that of AP).

    As for intellectualism, you're quite correct that my favored approach is experiential and contemplative rather than intellectual.

    Indeed, when I first started reading David Bentley Hart I was put off by his extremely elaborate intellectualism - I had just come off reading Mcgilchrist - but he ended up winning me over. I found an unexpected beauty and cogency in his intellectualism and began to see the grandeur of the ancient metaphysical traditions, although my approach is still experiential.

    But there is a lath for all of us.

    As for you, you certainly don't come off as dogmatic and intolerant at all - I actually agree with your rejection of the way religion has come to be interpreted in modern times, as factual and literal and dogmatic. Certainly if you take "created in six days" literally then that kind of thing can't survive on the modern world.

    But to my gratification, the ancient religions never understood it this way until modern times.

    As for Thomas Aquinas, you are correct he is very much not my cup of tea - he seems to have been a moral monster, who thought the righteous would enjoy seeing sinners writhe in hell, and thought the perfection if creation required some to suffer and be damned. This is a significant deterioration from ancient Christianity, and infinitely inferior to Mahayana Buddhism with it's beautiful vision of the Bodhisattva who refuses Nirvana to eventually save every last sentient being. Thomism was a huge disaster in Western Christianity. For all that, some of his metaphysical arguments are interesting.

    Well, I definitely appreciate your willingness to strike a bold and uncompromising skeptical stance, and you should continue as long as this seems satisfying to you - it does not create any hard feelings jn me.

    And we should talk more about our wilderness forays really....

    Replies: @Sher Singh, @Mikel

    I am a huge fan of such syncretism and blurry boundaries 🙂 Perhaps we can add Atheism to the syncretist vision as well – it’s a big tent

    Well, do as you wish but I would recommend to put some boundaries on your syncretism, lest it becomes too confusing 🙂 Perhaps there’s some spiritual thing to learn even from religions that practice/d human sacrifices, who knows, but I’d personally leave them out of my own tent.

    And we should talk more about our wilderness forays really….

    A much more relaxing subject than the meaning of human existence, certainly. During the last months I’ve been very busy so I’ve settled in a routine of just visiting a few nearby mountain favorite places of mine. That’s why I chose to live here after all, to have that luxury at hand when I can’t go and explore new places. But that also means that I don’t have a lot to tell, unless I enter in a description of the amazing transition from a high desert environment to an alpine one as you climb the slopes of the Wasatch range. That would bore everyone to death, I’m afraid.

    Utah winters are always long and often extend well into the spring months so another thing we’ve settled into is visiting some tropical place every winter for a change. I can’t wait to fly to the tropics early in February. I would be happy enough to just travel a few hours down to the sunny Southwest desert a few times every winter and that’s probably what I’ll do when I retire but right now I need to consider my wife and son’s wishes and who can complain about a week by a tropical beach during this extremely snowy winter? Besides, this coming April I’m planning to visit the Coachella Festival. I’ve never been there and am very curious to see what that gathering of hippies and freaks in the California desert feels like.

    When you have the time I’d find it interesting to know how the Sawtooth mountains in Idaho compare to the Wind River Range. My guess is that the Sawtooths must have a pure Rocky Mountain scenery with a Canadian flavor whereas the Wind Rivers, being at the end of the Rockies, where the mountains give way to the Wyoming plains, must be drier and a bit less forested, at least at lower elevations.

    • Replies: @HeavilyMarbledSteak
    @Mikel

    So I would say the Sawtooth area and the Wind River are both fairly dry and arid until you get deep into the mountains where the forests in both areas get lush. At least the eastern side of the Sawtooths - I didn't go the Western side,

    The Sawtooths look very different though, more like the Tetons, rising sharply out of the plains into jagged peaks. And they look dramatic driving on the plains, whereas the Wind Rivers don't really look like much till you hike into them or drive down the dirt roads.

    The Sawtooths are more accessible too - the Winds, you have to drive 20 miles down dirt roads to even start accessing the really good scenery, and it's not until you hike 5-6 miles in that it gets draw-dropping.

    The Winds are still the prettier range in my view :)

    The tiny town of Stanley Idaho has amazing views of the Sawtooths. The whole area though is just a few hours from Boise, and in today's explosion of interest in wilderness activities that means the area was pretty crowded. Still though with all the vastness it's ok.

    I came in through Sun Valley, which is apparently where Hemingway used to love spending time in Idaho and where he wrote many of his fishing and mountain stories about - it is a deeply beautiful place, California-like brown hills gradually giving way to lush alpine valleys that look like Europe as you explore off the main road. There's a special quality of sunlight there. Then as you ascent another ten miles you hit the Saws.

    I totally hear you about the tropics - I actually am lately developing a real appreciation for tropical scenery, the intense green, the lushness, the sunsets, the different feel in the air - it's not just "summer", but really a different atmosphere.

    I just wrapped up three weeks in Cambodia and Thailand - I was going to head on to India, but unfortunately something at work is calling me back early.

    I stayed for about a week on Koh Chang, which is one of the largest islands in the Gulf of Siam. There's a single road circling the perimeter of the island where everyone lives, but the interior is all covered in these gorgeous dark green jungle mountains that look so enticing - but there's no way to access them! No roads, paths, nothing. Just gorgeous, thick, impenetrable jungle.

    I was thinking if this was America or Europe there would be dozens of hiking trails ascending all the peaks, but here no one bothered. Mainland South East Asia can often look exhausted and over-farmed except for some pockets, and doesn't always present tropical nature at its best unless you seek it out. But this island had a dark and mysterious interior that seemingly has never been farmed or logged, which I thought was very cool.

    And there were monkeys all over, just playing in the forest or the electrical wires over the road, which I thought was great :)

    Replies: @HeavilyMarbledSteak, @Mikel

  441. @A123
    Must Watch PV [MORE]

    Project Veritas
    @Project_Veritas
    SHOCKING: @Pfizer Director Physically Assaults @JamesOKeefeIII & Veritas Staff; Destroys iPad Showing Undercover Recordings About “Mutating” Covid Virus; NYPD RESPONDS!

    “I’m just someone who’s working in a company that’s trying to literally help the public.”

    “You fu*ked up!”
     
    The Leftoids who praise BLM, BDS, and Antifa sure get worked up when their tactics are used against them.

    PEACE 😇



    https://twitter.com/Project_Veritas/status/1618737936920633344?s=20

    Replies: @A123, @Barbarossa

    What was the point of that video? I just watched 9+ minutes of a pathetic dude freaking out with 0.2 seconds of him saying…something about Covid virus mutating. If there was a there there, I sure didn’t see it! Did I blink at the wrong point?

    I haven’t paid that much attention to Project Veritas previously but if this representative of their oeuvre than they probably are just click bait.

    Supporting context, please?

    • Replies: @Emil Nikola Richard
    @Barbarossa

    They did a homo honeypot where some guy the pharm boss had the hots for went to a bar and plied him with drinks. Evidence of nothing.

    Since you would need a ten year old girl to honeypot Gates and Fauci those guys are out of reach for project veritas.

    Replies: @Barbarossa

  442. @AP
    @Coconuts

    As usual my thoughts align with your but you express it better then I could have:


    If you take the view that the Natural Sciences rather than rival philosophy or metaphysics was the most important thing in undermining the philosophical teaching of the Church, I think this would be like holding to a strong form of Physicalism or Scientism
     
    There is no conflict between Natural Sciences and the Church (many devout Churchmen have also been scientists, and the history of modern science begins with churchmen), but rather between Scientism and the Church. The idea that there is nothing in the universe other than that which can be systematically observed or measured by evolved apes and the instruments they have created is itself a belief, one that seems to be more fantastic and irrational than belief in God.

    Replies: @Mikel

    The idea that there is nothing in the universe other than that which can be systematically observed or measured by evolved apes and the instruments they have created is itself a belief, one that seems to be more fantastic and irrational than belief in God.

    I agree with the first part of this sentence and I have myself said on this blog in the past that that is an irrational belief. But the last part of the sentence is more problematic. That our brains are unable to fully understand the universe and anything that may lie beyond does not logically lead to embracing the myths that our ancestors used as an explanation when they were even more ignorant than us. Besides, how rational is it to embrace precisely the myths of your cultural tradition when, as AnonfromTN says, there are so many other contradictory myths to choose from?

    I’ve done quite a lot of science reading and my impression is that top scientists, especially theoretical physicists, are more aware than anyone of the limits of our understanding because that is what they deal with daily in their jobs. But it’s true that some scientists seem to operate under the assumption that everything will eventually be understood by the human species if we just keep investigating. Absent strong IQ augmentation, I don’t have such a hope. And even then I’m not sure how much a mammal brain will ever be able to grasp the deepest realities.

    • Replies: @AP
    @Mikel


    "The idea that there is nothing in the universe other than that which can be systematically observed or measured by evolved apes and the instruments they have created is itself a belief, one that seems to be more fantastic and irrational than belief in God."

    I agree with the first part of this sentence and I have myself said on this blog in the past that that is an irrational belief. But the last part of the sentence is more problematic. That our brains are unable to fully understand the universe and anything that may lie beyond does not logically lead to embracing the myths that our ancestors used as an explanation when they were even more ignorant than us.
     
    They were more ignorant than us with respect to the natural world and how it works, but that's not the main issue here, given that we accept that what we consider to be the natural world (i.e., that which is systematically observable and measurable to apes and the technology they have created) is necessarily limited anyways. If anything, our ancestors' limitation made them be less confident in their technological and observational prowess and and therefore less prone to the irrational Scientism belief. Of course, this advantage was balanced out by their propensity to falsely assign divine explanations to natural phenomena. But if we set aside the latter, then the ancients (or even those of the earlier this century) can have much to teach us.

    So if we admit that Scientism is irrational, the door opens to the likelihood that the universe contains much that we are incapable of understanding or that will never fit into our naturalistic framework. This certainly doesn't prove that God exists but it makes it extremely unlikely that He couldn't exist and irrational to preclude His existence.

    And because what is "natural" (that which is systematically observable and measurable to apes and the technology they have created) can't be everything, then supernatural is possible, also.

    And so there are rare and weird events such as miracles, the Resurrection, demonic possession, near death experiences, etc. Barbarossa may have hinted at them. A humble person comfortable with the idea of limits to scientific understanding isn't disturbed by the prospect of such things existing (at least, if they are not negative).

    I haven't experienced any of this stuff myself, and have even debunked an example (my kids were once frightened by weird forceful knocking on a second floor bedroom wall at an old cabin in the woods in the Appalachians we rented - I staked it out and found it was a woodpecker bird). But I have heard credible accounts in life , from a priest who witnessed an exorcism, from people in Moscow who had heard footsteps, from a physician and former director of a neurological hospital in Iraq who had tried to do research on Near Death Experiences (as systematic science, not very useful as one would expect, but the rare incidents were real).

    Besides, how rational is it to embrace precisely the myths of your cultural tradition when, as AnonfromTN says, there are so many other contradictory myths to choose from?
     
    I'm not given much to theological or philosophical speculation, but my admittedly primitive take is this:

    1. It's not fully myths. The New Testament is basically eyewitness testimony. Different people did witness those events, and believed so strongly in what they saw that they were willing to be martyred for it in different places. As in all witness cases, they differed or were inconsistent on details but not on the events.

    2. Even if we were to treat is as mere myths, it would seem to be rational that the Christian religion would be the right one or at least had the best odds of being so. If God were to incarnate, it would be in the center of the most populated part of the world, near East and West. A place like Palestine.
    And if it were true, then the religion would spread and become the dominant one on the world, as it did. And if it were true, it would inspire the best in people - mercy, love, compassion, and the best and most beautiful music, literature, etc. as it did. It would be carried to all ends of the Earth.* The possibility can't be excluded (only if we do not accept the Resurrection as fact), but it doesn't seem rational that if there were a God it would be the god of the Andaman islanders and all the others were false, or the Raven of some North American Indian tribe. If there were a God then most of the people would find Him inevitably, unless for reasons we cannot understand He only wanted to be known by Andaman islanders. But this is contraindicated by his incarnating in Palestine.

    * Islam is the only reasonable contender here. But that may be because it's a step-child to Christianity, close enough to also enjoy considerable success.

    Replies: @Mikel

  443. @songbird
    @A123

    I was speaking of the one with more blacks. Namely, Birmingham, England.

    Replies: @A123

    I was speaking of the one with more blacks. Namely, Birmingham, England.

    Birmingham, AL, USA is ~70% African American. I suspect Birmingham, UK is much more pale.

    PEACE 😇

    • Replies: @songbird
    @A123


    I suspect Birmingham, UK is much more pale.
     
    In relative terms, certainly, though I am not sure I would employ that specific adjective, to cast the overall environment.

    But there is certainly something to be said for concentration. One of the main tenants of chemistry (ex: toothpaste vs. rat poison), but undervalued in most other fields.

    BTW, returning to the Veritas story. I suspect another reason gays may be more susceptible is that they have a smaller field to play, so they might be more desperate. (or, maybe, it has grown?)

    Replies: @A123

    , @Wokechoke
    @A123

    It’s full of Pakis and Niggers now.

  444. @AP
    @Dmitry


    AP defends “Anti-Christ”, or “pagan”, values
     
    The only Orthodox Christian person here defends my arguments.

    But AP doesn’t have this taboo and can throw old vegetables on the people below, from the palace walls.
     
    AP wants to, and does, help the people below. It is an obligation to do so. At the same time, reality is what it is. In our society, formed by Christianity for over a thousand years, values are such that people at the bottom tend to engage in worse behaviors than those who are better off. Unlike in the case of Jesus' time, prosperous people in the Christendom did not come by their wealth through conquest and enslavement, or through taxing widows and poor people. They are not likely to be wicked people. An analogue to the time of Christ might be the post-Soviet world, that could be more applicable.

    AP is the anti-religious* and materialist side of the spectrum....But for people that are spiritual, it’s strange to see people viewing religion in terms of social and political utility, like saying to romantic people that “love is good because it reduced blood pressure”.
     
    I write from this perspective because it is something that can observed. So I once told our former host that it is good from a utilitarian POV to protect the lives of people with Down's syndrome because they help others to be better people and besides that families who do not abort such children tend to have many healthy normal children too; he is not AFAIK a Christian, so it would make no sense to appeal to the Christian idea that all people have inherent value regardless of disability. But both are true.

    It would be silly to say to a romantic person that love is good because it reduces blood pressure, but what about to a non-romantic person? Then it would be appropriate.

    Replies: @Dmitry

    people at the bottom tend to engage in worse behaviors than those who are better off. Unlike in the case of Jesus’ time, prosperous people in the Christendom did not come by their wealth through conquest and enslavement, or through taxing widows and poor people. They are not likely to be wicked

    This is your point of view and you don’t have to justify it by giving the complicated historical maneuver to give it wrong label. It’s possibly true, possibly false, like any view, depending on evidence.

    But it is the opposite of the Catholic church and also opposite of what Church fathers are writing. In their view, we don’t live in the time after the Second Coming. And in their teaching, pride is the first of capital sins.

    And in their view, “failing to meet the needs” of the poor and weak is second reason for going to hell, after hate and murder.

    many healthy normal children too; he is not AFAIK a Christian, so it would make no sense to appeal to the Christian idea that all people have inherent value regardless of disability. But both are true

    I don’t understand this. Really, any normal people don’t think like this, as they have morality and concepts like compassion, as the mainstream in our culture. Trying to justify in this way, looks like a discussion of psychopaths without internal morality – “Don’t kill the children, because I found some justifications that they will be helpful for our political side”.

    In your posts, you writer morality from a view as reducible to social utility. To be honest, this is one of the distinguishable features where you know “this is a post by AP”, when you see writing about morality as something “useful”.

    However, this is not real morality, that has to be based from internal compassion or duty.

    For example, you write “fear an inevitability or high likelihood of eternal Hell, atheism would conveniently calm such a fear”. (Actually, atheism correlates with lower crimes, but this is not for this discussion).

    So, you believe it is good to promote the hypothetical punishment and reward of religion, so this will be able to reduce crime and socially useful behavior.

    If you control an intelligent rat in the Skinner box that understands language. Instead of using electric shock to control its behavior, you talk to the rat about the hypothetical electric shock it will have when it exits the box. So, you believe the rat will behave in the way which you desire, because it now believes there will be an electric shock when it exits the box (i.e. after life).

    This is not morality, it is the rat’s selfish behavior based on hypothetical view of punishment and reward in the after life, as a rat in any box.

    But morality is the idea that you do the right things, because it is the right things, not because of consequences (electric shocks, whether in this life, or after life). If it was based in consequences (i.e. to go to heaven), then it would just be another kind of selfish behavior. This view was true also in Ancient Greece and earlier times.

    Morality is unselfish behavior. A true moral behavior, is when they do the moral behavior, even though it has negative consequences for the person (whether in this life or even in hypothetical after life).

    Although there is a problem in all religions where they sometimes promote their morality, by giving the theory of the electric shock in this life or after life. This is kind of selfish behavior, even if the positive consequence will be in after life.

    Morality is based from not selfish beliefs (“what will happen to me in this life or after life”), but from the internal compassion, duty, etc.

    In the Christian writing there is some understanding of this problem, in the discussion of spirit of the law vs following the law. Jesus says the right hand can’t know what the left hand is doing, when you give to the poor. Jesus says that looking at a woman with lust, is adultery (unlike, in the less strict Judaism, adultery is only an act, not the thought).

    • Agree: Barbarossa
    • Replies: @Coconuts
    @Dmitry


    Really, any normal people don’t think like this, as they have morality and concepts like compassion, as the mainstream in our culture.
     
    Is this partly about which understanding of morality a person adopts? They used to teach us that there were three major approaches to understanding morality:

    Utilitarian/Consequentialist, 'greatest good morality'. This one has been pretty popular and prominent in the Anglo sphere over the years, maybe it is less so now.

    Deontological, famous Kantian morality. Also very influential but I always thought it was less popular than the consequentialist one in Anglo countries. On the continent it was more dominant.

    Virtue Ethics. This used to seem like the novel up and coming option. Though it was really like an old option returning.

    Although there is a problem in all religions where they sometimes promote their morality, by giving the theory of the electric shock in this life or after life.
     
    The basis of this may be in theistic virtue ethics traditions, because there God can be understood to be the fount and fulfilment of all virtue, so when God chooses to grant heaven (closeness to or union with God) that is goodness or morality itself. But from a deontological point of view this could be a moral hazard.

    A true moral behavior, is when they do the moral behavior, even though it has negative consequences for the person
     
    I remember a sort of crude counter-argument to deontological morality, that it can make morality like self-harm on behalf of an abstraction. This is likely to be a strawman but iirc the challenges to the deontological option develop along these lines.

    Also I was taught these things some time ago and now those discussions might be considered bourgeois/patriarchal/white supremacist, as a new 'revolutionary' approach to morality seems to have appeared. Here discussion of morality can't be separated from politics, and oppressed groups have special and unique insight into morality/politics due to their experience. They can use this experience to transform society for the better through revolt against oppression and gaining power. What they are going to do and how they are going to achieve this improvement can't really be codified or explained to those not part of the oppressed group, especially not to oppressors in current social contexts.

    There is a right-wing counter view to this, that questions of morality and justice can't be disassociated from the question of force and power, because this is what makes them meaningful or real. Here, to be moral or just a person or group must first be powerful and capable enough to understand and carry out what needs to be done. Morality therefore flows from 'the generosity of power'.

    I've been wondering if these are more like moral options from my grandparents generation that have somehow made a comeback.

    Replies: @Dmitry

    , @AP
    @Dmitry


    But it is the opposite of the Catholic church and also opposite of what Church fathers are writing. In their view, we don’t live in the time after the Second Coming
     
    I did not claim that we did. But we do live in a Christian society that is largely based on Christian values and thus is very different from the one that Jesus rebelled against (or separated Himself from).

    Given the radical difference, the approach must also be different.

    And in their teaching, pride is the first of capital sins.
     
    Indeed, and we all sin.

    And in their view, “failing to meet the needs” of the poor and weak is second reason for going to hell, after hate and murder.
     
    Of course. And this was the heart of my dispute with AaronB. He objected to meeting the needs of the poor because he compared them to Christ and His disciples and felt that their state of poverty/refusal to work was evidence of virtue. He felt that helping them by hospitalizing them, sending them to rehab, or even in the worst case scenario if they have committed crimes sending them to prison where they will no longer be a danger to themselves or others and will receive medical care, food, shelter and help with addiction was a bad thing to do, by subjecting them to the Machine, or something like that.

    I demand that the needs of the poor be met, that we not turn away and let them rot in the street for their "freedom." That we act as shepherds and not leave them to the wolves even if they say they want to be left to the wolves.

    I don’t understand this. Really, any normal people don’t think like this, as they have morality and concepts like compassion, as the mainstream in our culture.
     
    People who are not Christian may not think of unborn children as people or have compassion for them; they think o them as clumps of cells. The discussion was about them being in favor of aborting fetuses who have been determined to have Downs syndrome. For such people I used a utilitarian-social argument. That the people who give to birth to such kids also tend to have large families, and that the kids are sweethearts who elicit compassion and good from their families, so that overall their existence is good for society. This does not contradict the religious argument about inherent self-worth.

    So, you believe it is good to promote the hypothetical punishment and reward of religion, so this will be able to reduce crime and socially useful behavior.

    If you control an intelligent rat in the Skinner box that understands language. Instead of using electric shock to control its behavior, you talk to the rat about the hypothetical electric shock it will have when it exits the box. So, you believe the rat will behave in the way which you desire, because it now believes there will be an electric shock when it exits the box (i.e. after life).

    This is not morality, it is the rat’s selfish behavior based on hypothetical view of punishment and reward in the after life, as a rat in any box.

     

    You are repeating Kant's ethics, right?

    He was neither a Catholic nor was he Orthodox.

    The position of the Church is that the morality involves both duty do what is right and to do things that which brings us closer to God (and therefore, to avoid Hell).

    But morality is the idea that you do the right things, because it is the right things, not because of consequences
     
    This is your idea of morality.

    The problem with your idea of morality is that it leads to a sort of moral nihilism. You will say that people in a society in which few people harm others because doing it is socially unacceptable, are no better than cruel people who live in a society that celebrates cruelty, because the former merely follow social convention. That the nice person in Christendom who unthinkably pays for the poor and looks after his neighbor isn't really better than the pagan who unthinkably goes to the Coliseum in order to get entertained by animals ripping apart screaming people. One could then conclude, based on your morality, that truly moral people are more likely to exist in a society that is very depraved and that insist upon depravity for its members because in such a society doing the right thing has negative consequences rather than rewards.

    You also assume the worst of people who do the right thing because they are guided by the teaching of the Church. That someone who will not harm someone else because they fear Hell, would otherwise delight in harming someone else.

    Morality is based from not selfish beliefs (“what will happen to me in this life or after life”), but from the internal compassion, duty, etc.
     
    The former is often necessary to develop the latter. Morality is not arbitrary. What about someone who internalizes what is right and what is wrong based on teachings of nearness to God and fear of Hell?

    Replies: @Dmitry, @Barbarossa

  445. @A123
    @Emil Nikola Richard


    Getting together with another guy to watch a football game is not gay?
     
    Meeting at a sports bar to watch a game with someone is not inherently gay.

    How many gay men go to Hooters [MORE]?

    I suppose it happens, but that would by atypical.

    PEACE 😇



    https://mms.businesswire.com/media/20141229005400/en/446845/5/GMOFE_image.jpg

    Replies: @Emil Nikola Richard

    Meeting at a sports bar to watch a game with someone is not inherently gay.

    Correct. If it’s just you and your best buddy in his den though watch out. The stupid touchdown dances are included in the NFL highlight videos. That is how gay football is.

  446. @Barbarossa
    @A123

    What was the point of that video? I just watched 9+ minutes of a pathetic dude freaking out with 0.2 seconds of him saying...something about Covid virus mutating. If there was a there there, I sure didn't see it! Did I blink at the wrong point?

    I haven't paid that much attention to Project Veritas previously but if this representative of their oeuvre than they probably are just click bait.

    Supporting context, please?

    Replies: @Emil Nikola Richard

    They did a homo honeypot where some guy the pharm boss had the hots for went to a bar and plied him with drinks. Evidence of nothing.

    Since you would need a ten year old girl to honeypot Gates and Fauci those guys are out of reach for project veritas.

    • Agree: Barbarossa
    • Replies: @Barbarossa
    @Emil Nikola Richard

    I kind of felt bad for the pathetic homo, to be honest.

  447. @AP
    @Beckow


    There is probably no other nation today that is willing to sacrifice its men and destroy itself

     

    The natural collaborator and lackey can’t understand why anyone would fight to keep invaders out of their country.

    They are also not weakening Russia – winning wars by definition strengthens a country
     
    Kind of like how Britain was strengthened by winning World War II, right?

    And Britain and France were strengthened after their World War I victory.

    Have you heard of the concept of Pyrrhic victory?

    I completely agree with this comment by the military expert “Twinkie” who occasionally commented here:

    Prior to this war, I rated Putin’s governance and statesmanship highly – after all, he strengthened the Russian economy and defense after the collapse of the Soviet Union and tangibly increased the Russian standard of living. My evaluation of national leaders is based on a rather simple criteria – has he left the country in a better shape than he found it? And he had… until this war.

    This war has been a severe miscalculation on his part and something of a disaster for the Russian state. Remember the great debacle of our Iraq War (which I frequently refer to as our “Sicilian Expedition”)? Well, the US Army lost 150 armored fighting vehicles (tanks, infantry fighting vehicles, and armored personnel carriers) in eight years of fighting in Iraq. In contrast, the Russian army has lost over 3,000 AFVs in eight months of fighting in Ukraine. And let’s not forget the really vital asset in force generation and projection – the tens of thousands of trained personnel that once manned those vehicles (as John Boyd once said, “people first, ideas second, hardware third”).

    I often quote Edward Luttwak about the logic of power versus force, which is that the use of power often begets more power, but the use of force consumes it. Well, Putin decided to employ direct, coercive force rather than power and influence to bend Ukraine to his will, and it has backfired spectacularly and has consumed a huge amount of force.

    I am not one of these fools, idiots, or the insane who claim to be able to predict the future. I don’t know what the future holds, but I think sober observers can tell that the war has dealt a severe blow to the Russian state, and it is considerably weaker now than when it started the war (this, of course, doesn’t mean someone else – e.g. Ukraine or the United States – is winning, as war is one of those phenomena that are often negative-sum).

     

    Replies: @Beckow

    Britain and France were strengthened after their World War I victory.

    Absolutely, they were strengthened – they dominated Europe as almost never before. France in particular was a big winner of WW1. Why would winning a war make you weaker? That is just stupid wishful throw-away nonsense.

    Pyrrhic victory

    You are stuck on this rather infantile concept that has no similarity to today’s situation. Pyrrha invaded Italy and won 1-2 battles but lost so many men and equipment that he had to withdraw. If you think that Russia will run out of men and weapons right on its own borders you are living in a lala land. Pyrrha had serious logistics issues to resupply his troops, do you see Russia as experiencing something similar? Why would they. Your analogy is literally retarded – a shallow, uneducated quip to make yourself feel better. Instead you sound like a moron. Putin=Pyrrha, right, how incredibly stupid can you be.

    • Replies: @AP
    @Beckow


    Britain and France were strengthened after their World War I victory.

    Absolutely, they were strengthened – they dominated Europe as almost never before
     

    Not, they were terminally weakened and swept away in the next war, despite victory and territorial acquisition as a result of the victory in the First World War. Your low educational level is on display again.

    The big winner was the USA, which mostly stayed out but supplied the allies throughout the war.

    Seem familiar?


    Pyrrhic victory

    You are stuck on this rather infantile concept that has no similarity to today’s situation. Pyrrha invaded Italy and won 1-2 battles
     

    Now you are thinking like an Autist, I remember you were triggered when I had used that term earlier, so I deliberately used it again.

    The term in the English language simply means “won at too great a cost to have been worthwhile for the victor.”

    No analogy to the specific victory by Pyrrhus’s military was implied in the use of that common phrase.

    This is how normal people use that phrase. It is our former host’s prediction as the most likely outcome.


    Instead you sound like a moron. Putin=Pyrrha, right, how incredibly stupid can you be.

     

    It is funny to witness the wound-be lackey seethe when things don’t go well for his desired master. Don’t worry, you’ll find someone else to serve.

    The icing on the cake is that in your historical illiteracy you didn’t even know that the Greek king was called Pyrrhus. Who is Pyrrha?

    Replies: @Wokechoke, @Mr. Hack, @Beckow

    , @Emil Nikola Richard
    @Beckow

    >> Britain and France were strengthened after their World War I victory.

    > Absolutely, they were strengthened – they dominated Europe as almost never before. France in particular was a big winner of WW1. Why would winning a war make you weaker? That is just stupid wishful throw-away nonsense.

    In the Yale U youtube History Europe class they had a guest lecture for the WWI mop up class. The guest lecturer claimed WWI was the end of British Empire. Their stupidity in this self destruction cost them all status with the Empire subjects.

    Before: all the wogs and negroes and whatnot were sold on the superiority of the white civilization.

    After: the attitude was these guys are idiots.

    Replies: @Yahya, @Beckow

  448. @Emil Nikola Richard
    @Barbarossa

    They did a homo honeypot where some guy the pharm boss had the hots for went to a bar and plied him with drinks. Evidence of nothing.

    Since you would need a ten year old girl to honeypot Gates and Fauci those guys are out of reach for project veritas.

    Replies: @Barbarossa

    I kind of felt bad for the pathetic homo, to be honest.

  449. @AP
    @Dmitry

    Agree with everything but this part:


    So, their future in EU, will be like a country similar to Romania (if you optimistic) or Bulgaria (probably more realistic
     
    Ukrainians are closest culturally, historically, educationally, geographically and genetically (the last is least important) to their Polish neighbors, so Ukraine would most likely follow the Polish path, although it will be 20 or so years behind Poland.

    Ideally Ukraine will return to the February 2022 borders. But the smaller it ends up being, the better off the remaining parts will be.

    Something you might not realize is that although millions have left Ukraine, the safer places in western Ukraine have gotten packed with refugees from eastern Ukraine who do not want to leave Ukraine but don’t want to get bombed. Lviv has about 150,000 additional people since the war started (before the war it’s population had been around 800,000). They are building many new neighborhoods in Lviv:

    https://www.nytimes.com/2022/05/31/arts/lviv-ukraine-refugee-housing.html

    A lot of the IT industry from Kharkiv has moved to Lviv. Some of it will stay there after the war, as will many refugees from areas that Russia has taken, who do not want to live in Russia but in Ukraine (one of my cousins has taken in people from Melitopol in her Lviv flat). In the extremely unlikely event that Kiev were to get occupied l by Russia, there would be a massive outflow of educated nationalistic people, and Lviv would easily top 1 million people with their settlement.

    Uzhhorod near the Hungarian border has seen a 30% increase in its population. Transcarpathia as a whole is now about 1/3 Ukrainian refugee. Many Hungarians (who have dual citizenship) have fled and their places taken by anti-Russian refugees. So the share of ethnic Hungarians in that province has really dropped and it’s becoming a more homogeneous Ukrainian one:

    https://www.hungarianconservative.com/articles/politics/caught-in-the-crossfire-can-transcarpathia-recover/

    Replies: @Dmitry, @Another Polish Perspective

    Ukraine would most likely follow the Polish

    Poland is Central Europe and next to Germany. They have been merging to the German economy, which is the most powerful economy in Europe. For example, Volkswagen factories in Poland have more than $6 billion annual revenue.

    Ukraine is Eastern Europe and will be more generally periphery country of EU for those logistics reasons, which would be less centrally integrated to Germany’s economy.

    EU also perhaps will have relatively less money for convergence in the next decades compared to 2000-2020 as the UK has exited, which was the second largest economy of the bloc.

    closest culturally, historically, educationally, geographically and genetically (the last is least important) to their Polish neighbors

    I agree the last (genetics) is not likely predictive.

    I’m not sure culture personality type is so predictive. But in terms of culture, Poles are different. Ukrainians are similar to Russians. But Poles have a very distinctive national personality, not similar to Russian. Some of their personality is more like stereotypical Germans – they have quite pedantic culture. I wonder if there is a general Central European trend for this?

    In terms of historically, Poland was not part of the Soviet Union or Russian Empire. Although again, I’m not sure this is predictive for the economic future. Estonia is former territory of the Russian Empire and USSR. But Estonia has been one of the more fast converging countries in the EU.

    closest culturally, historically, educationally, geographically and genetically (the last is least important) to their Polish

    Bulgaria is an ethnically Southern/Mediterranean country (Balkans). But you know what they say about Bulgaria in Soviet times (“Курица – не птица, Болгария – не заграница”). I’m not sure how true this is, but there is often similarity which is wider than the peoples’ hair coloration.

    Although if Ukraine follows Romania attainments in the EU, this would be a very optimistic situation.

    Romania’s attainments are the same as countries having the world’s largest oil and gas exports and largest industries for diamonds, metals (Russia). Also the same as countries with the world’s largest manufacturing (China).

    If Ukraine would go anywhere between Bulgaria and Romania, they will be a very significant optimistic reality.

    • Disagree: Mikhail
    • Replies: @Mikhail
    @Dmitry


    In terms of historically, Poland was not part of the Soviet Union or Russian Empire. Although again, I’m not sure this is predictive for the economic future. Estonia is former territory of the Russian Empire and USSR. But Estonia has been one of the more fast converging countries in the EU.
     
    Including Warsaw, much of Poland had been part of the Russian Empire for a lengthy period.

    Replies: @LatW

  450. @AP
    @Dmitry

    Agree with everything but this part:


    So, their future in EU, will be like a country similar to Romania (if you optimistic) or Bulgaria (probably more realistic
     
    Ukrainians are closest culturally, historically, educationally, geographically and genetically (the last is least important) to their Polish neighbors, so Ukraine would most likely follow the Polish path, although it will be 20 or so years behind Poland.

    Ideally Ukraine will return to the February 2022 borders. But the smaller it ends up being, the better off the remaining parts will be.

    Something you might not realize is that although millions have left Ukraine, the safer places in western Ukraine have gotten packed with refugees from eastern Ukraine who do not want to leave Ukraine but don’t want to get bombed. Lviv has about 150,000 additional people since the war started (before the war it’s population had been around 800,000). They are building many new neighborhoods in Lviv:

    https://www.nytimes.com/2022/05/31/arts/lviv-ukraine-refugee-housing.html

    A lot of the IT industry from Kharkiv has moved to Lviv. Some of it will stay there after the war, as will many refugees from areas that Russia has taken, who do not want to live in Russia but in Ukraine (one of my cousins has taken in people from Melitopol in her Lviv flat). In the extremely unlikely event that Kiev were to get occupied l by Russia, there would be a massive outflow of educated nationalistic people, and Lviv would easily top 1 million people with their settlement.

    Uzhhorod near the Hungarian border has seen a 30% increase in its population. Transcarpathia as a whole is now about 1/3 Ukrainian refugee. Many Hungarians (who have dual citizenship) have fled and their places taken by anti-Russian refugees. So the share of ethnic Hungarians in that province has really dropped and it’s becoming a more homogeneous Ukrainian one:

    https://www.hungarianconservative.com/articles/politics/caught-in-the-crossfire-can-transcarpathia-recover/

    Replies: @Dmitry, @Another Polish Perspective

    Ukrainians are closest culturally, historically, educationally, geographically and genetically (the last is least important) to their Polish neighbors

    I wouldn’t underestimate the genetic factor. With such a huge influx of Ukrainians (not just after 02.2022, but earlier) Polish folk wisdom has already generated new stereotypes of Ukrainians, obviously by juxtaposition to its own generalizations about Poles, like “Ukrainians are musical and emotional [temperamental]” – obviously these factors have some genetic foundations.

    so Ukraine would most likely follow the Polish path, although it will be 20 or so years behind Poland.

    Maybe, maybe not. There is now no natural path of development or natural path of convergence. The larger the Ukraine, the harder will be its way to the West. Out of Soviet Union, only the small Baltic countries managed to open the door to the West, not even Moldavia, maybe because the former were so small…

  451. @A123
    @songbird


    I was speaking of the one with more blacks. Namely, Birmingham, England.
     
    Birmingham, AL, USA is ~70% African American. I suspect Birmingham, UK is much more pale.

    PEACE 😇

    Replies: @songbird, @Wokechoke

    I suspect Birmingham, UK is much more pale.

    In relative terms, certainly, though I am not sure I would employ that specific adjective, to cast the overall environment.

    But there is certainly something to be said for concentration. One of the main tenants of chemistry (ex: toothpaste vs. rat poison), but undervalued in most other fields.

    BTW, returning to the Veritas story. I suspect another reason gays may be more susceptible is that they have a smaller field to play, so they might be more desperate. (or, maybe, it has grown?)

    • Replies: @A123
    @songbird


    I suspect another reason gays may be more susceptible is that they have a smaller field to play
     
    In my opinion it is more the overweening presence of SJW privilege. Arrogance leads to hubris, which leads to a giant fall. The ancient Greeks warned of this.

    They created (or at least popularized) these techniques, and used against normal people. Now that normies are using the tool set SJW's created (such as taping what they actually say) the Leftoids are upset.

    Make the enemy live up to their own book of rules. You can kill them with this, -- Saul Alinsky

    Using fear to silence people and drive them from the public square is the world they chose to make. If they wanted civility... They should have been civil.

    Below is another worthwhile expose about how deviant The Woke are.

    PEACE 😇
    __________

    Iman Rasti, Director of Writing Center; Middle School English Teacher; Seventh Grade Dean at Greens Farms Academy

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kA4ig-WHGeI

  452. @Beckow
    @AP


    Britain and France were strengthened after their World War I victory.
     
    Absolutely, they were strengthened - they dominated Europe as almost never before. France in particular was a big winner of WW1. Why would winning a war make you weaker? That is just stupid wishful throw-away nonsense.

    Pyrrhic victory
     
    You are stuck on this rather infantile concept that has no similarity to today's situation. Pyrrha invaded Italy and won 1-2 battles but lost so many men and equipment that he had to withdraw. If you think that Russia will run out of men and weapons right on its own borders you are living in a lala land. Pyrrha had serious logistics issues to resupply his troops, do you see Russia as experiencing something similar? Why would they. Your analogy is literally retarded - a shallow, uneducated quip to make yourself feel better. Instead you sound like a moron. Putin=Pyrrha, right, how incredibly stupid can you be.

    Replies: @AP, @Emil Nikola Richard

    Britain and France were strengthened after their World War I victory.

    Absolutely, they were strengthened – they dominated Europe as almost never before

    Not, they were terminally weakened and swept away in the next war, despite victory and territorial acquisition as a result of the victory in the First World War. Your low educational level is on display again.

    The big winner was the USA, which mostly stayed out but supplied the allies throughout the war.

    Seem familiar?

    Pyrrhic victory

    You are stuck on this rather infantile concept that has no similarity to today’s situation. Pyrrha invaded Italy and won 1-2 battles

    Now you are thinking like an Autist, I remember you were triggered when I had used that term earlier, so I deliberately used it again.

    The term in the English language simply means “won at too great a cost to have been worthwhile for the victor.”

    No analogy to the specific victory by Pyrrhus’s military was implied in the use of that common phrase.

    This is how normal people use that phrase. It is our former host’s prediction as the most likely outcome.

    Instead you sound like a moron. Putin=Pyrrha, right, how incredibly stupid can you be.

    It is funny to witness the wound-be lackey seethe when things don’t go well for his desired master. Don’t worry, you’ll find someone else to serve.

    The icing on the cake is that in your historical illiteracy you didn’t even know that the Greek king was called Pyrrhus. Who is Pyrrha?

    • Replies: @Wokechoke
    @AP

    France was swept away. The UK handed over military power to New England in essence. English became confirmed as the language for science, business and Art.

    What England lost in WW2 was the exclusivity of the Insular Isolationism it had enjoyed.
    WW1 did abolish France though. Which happily became subordinate to Germany with Vichy.

    , @Mr. Hack
    @AP


    The icing on the cake is that in your historical illiteracy you didn’t even know that the Greek king was called Pyrrhus. Who is Pyrrha?
     
    https://s3.amazonaws.com/lowres.cartoonstock.com/food-drink-icing-cakes-cake_icings-cake_decorations-chefs-atan3901_low.jpg
    Oops!! Looks like the icing on that cake backfired to the author of the faulty recipe. :-)
    , @Beckow
    @AP

    Got off your high horse and address what I actually said about "Pyrrhic victory" - there is no analogy because the logistics simply doesn't fit.

    If you use the phrase as "won at too great a cost to have been worthwhile for the victor.” you must establish who would decide the value of that cost. If Russia thinks that keeping Nato out and protecting the Ukie Russians is worth the cost, why would you try to second-guess them? So far the costs for Russia have been quite minimal. The constant predictions of collapse have not materialized. The costs to Ukraine have been enormous: in lives, property, future prospects...

    If Russia prevails - keeps Donbas, Azov See... and keeps Nato out - they will be better off and Kiev will be worse off. So will Washington and London. It is actually quite simple, you hide behind Greek grammar rules to avoid seeing the obvious.

    And no, it is definitely not worth dying for. You can have you fake heroism, although I noticed that you yourself are not out there fighting. You are a hypocrite.

    Replies: @Greasy William, @AP

  453. @Yahya
    @Dmitry


    But I was waiting for polite time to ask for his food recommendations without stereotype him too much (the stereotype Arabs know more about food than even Italians) or what he thinks about el-Sisi, which e.g. Bashibuzuk will think probably boring.
     
    Lol, well I never knew Arabs were stereotyped as being knowledgeable about food in Europe. Perhaps that’s because Arab migrants have taken to operating many restaurants there. Even read somewhere that most “Italian” restaurants in Europe are run by Arabs.

    In the Arab world; Syrians are stereotyped as being cooks par excellence. You can find them working in many establishments in Egypt. I can’t say being an Arab gives me special insight into food. I don’t even know how to cook eggs. But I suppose I have some knowledge of Egyptian cuisine. Not sure what you meant by your question though; it’s a bit broad. But if you plan on visiting Egypt; I would recommend the following foods and restaurants.

    First, in terms of national dishes, the best Egypt has to offer is seafood and grilled meat.

    A) Grilled Meat (Mashweyat)

    The grilled meat (called “mashweyat” in Egyptian Arabic) you can find in every formerly Ottoman territory. The Turks have their variety that’s heavier and more saucy. Arab countries by contrast tend to lighten on the sauces and let the meat do the work. The “mixed grill” dish consists of 4-5 items: kofta, shish tawook, lamb chops, grilled kebab.


    https://i.ibb.co/JrSRMt3/181-F81-C9-AA78-43-C9-9-CCB-A3-EB2-DCEFB3-F.jpg


    Each you can order on its own. I personally like lamb chops and shish tawook the most. The former you can probably guess its taste. The latter is a marinated chicken dish that tastes a bit like the Indian Chicken Tikka.

    There’s also Shawarma which I probably don’t need to elaborate much on. The best shawarmas you will find in the “Third Worldy” type restaurants in Egypt like “Abu Amar El Soory” and “Semsema”. These types of restaurants are unsanitary, loud and chaotic so I’m not sure if people here can stomach it. Egyptians have sort of developed an immunity that allows them to eat that stuff, but probably its not advised if you are a foreigner on vacation. On the other hand, there are some clean restaurants like “Shaweremer” which you can find decent shawarma. For mixed grill “Manoufi” is the best, though it is a third world restaurant.

    B) Grilled Fish (Samak Mashwi)

    Egyptian seafood is totally unique, delicious and extremely underrated. After 5,000 years of living next to the Mediterranean and Red Sea, I believe Egyptians have perfected the art of seafood cooking. You’ll only find this style of spice in Lebanon, which copied the recipe from Egypt. This is why if you are in Egypt you definitely need to try Egyptian-style seafood. Unlike grilled meat, you won’t find this dish in any Western restaurant.

    I recommend the “Grilled Whole Fish” or “Samak Mashwi” in Arabic. You can choose any fish from Sea Bass to Grey Mullet and Sea Bream. Just tell the waiter “Mashwi” and he will grill it in the Egyptian style. You can also try fried fish, though I personally prefer grilled fish. Also the “butterfly shrimp” is quite exquisite.


    https://i.ibb.co/jWdybW5/ED82-BE65-F9-AB-4-A76-99-D2-90-A8527-D5-F66.jpg


    The best seafood restaurant I’ve tried is out in the Sinai, in a town called Ismailia. It’s about 2 hours from Cairo though. The most convenient restaurant in Cairo for fish is called “Asmak”. This website instructs you how to cook fish the Egyptian style if you’d like to cook at home: https://www.cookingchanneltv.com/recipes/samak-mashwi-grilled-fish-with-an-egyptian-twist-2273461

    If there’s any dish I’d recommend, it’s the grilled sea bream. Just a must really, if you go to Egypt without having tried it, your visit will have been for nought.

    C) Koshary

    There are other national dishes that are less luxurious and more “Staple Food” go poor Egyptians. They can be tasty in their own way, but there nothing special. The most common staple food is called koshary, it consist of basic carbohydrate items like lentils, rice, and pasta with tomato sauce and garlic.

    D) Molokheya

    The other item is called “Molokheya”. My guess is that many foreigners will find it too weird and exotic. You can already see by its appearance that it’s odd and weird - which it is. I personally like it, though I’m not sure people unaccustomed to it would. But it’s very popular in Egypt. It’s typically eaten with chicken and rice.


    https://i.ibb.co/chRXRhH/2-B663679-3857-474-C-AF94-A7-A75-F0-D6-B90.jpg


    E) Fava Beans (“Fool”)

    Another is called “fool” or “fava beans”, usually accompanied by “Tameya” or “Falafel”. It’s a staple breakfast for Egyptians. I love this dish, it’s simple but tasty. It tastes somewhat similar to beans found elsewhere, but with an Egyptian flavor. Would recommend it.

    My friend told me about this company that does tour guides of local Egyptian cuisine for tourists. I personally haven’t tried it but it looks professional, I’ll leave the link here: https://belliesenroute.com

    ————

    In terms of restaurants, there are many nice high-end restaurants in Egypt that are tasty and affordable. They aren’t particularly Egyptian though. Mostly serving international cushioned to upper class Egyptians. These restaurants are up to first world standards in cleanliness and décor, so you needn’t worry about food safety issues like in Egyptian restaurants.

    My favorite high-end restaurants in Cairo:

    1) Estro (Italian)
    2) Saachi (Japanese + International)
    3) Hana Barbecque (Korean)
    4) The Moghul Room (Indian)
    5) Al Beiruti (Lebanese)
    6) Mayrig (Armenian)

    The first one, “Estro” is my favorite. It’s owned and operated by a Sicilian lady who is always there and knows the customers by name. It’s located in a rooftop in an affluent Cairo suburb called Maadi. You can see large chunks of the city from the roof. Very peaceful and nice. The garlic shrimp is my favorite dish there.

    Hana Barbecque is owned and operated by a Korean lady who is married to an Egyptian. Food there is also fantastic, best Korean I’ve tasted thus far.

    Moghul room has some cool Indian-Islamic style architecture. The cutlery, plates and cups are also designed in a cool fashion. Would recommend as well.

    Saachi is very elite, serves Sushi and Wagyu beef and the like.

    I’ll get to Egypt’s government in another post.

    Replies: @Dmitry

    can’t say being an Arab gives me special insight into food. I don’t even know how to cook eggs

    There is a very disappointing sentence, even I feel hurt by this betrayal of the Arabian tradition.

    I suppose I have some knowledge of Egyptian cuisine.

    Do they use mainly olive oil in Egypt. One of the unusual things I read recently, is that in many countries in North Africa where the olive oil industry is booming, they don’t traditionally eat olive oil. For example, Morocco.

    There is one of the questions we discussed earlier. Is Egypt the Levant or North Africa? I was sure it is Levant, but you thought it was not Levant. If olive oil is traditional in Egypt, this could be evidence Egypt is Levant and vice-versa.

    Arabs were stereotyped as being knowledgeable about food in Europe

    If you look in bookshops in Europe, there are the most popular cooking books are often relating to Middle Eastern food.

    I’ve been in Israel, so obviously I know Arabs (whichever their religion) are experts about food. It’s the national obsession of the Middle Eastern people. Turkey is also famous for food, and food diversity (as center of the Ottoman empire), so this is perhaps more regional than ethnic (Turks vs Arabs).

    My experiences in other Eastern Mediterranean Greece and Cyprus was not so special in terms of food though I still think Greeks have quite good food, not so distant from the Middle East.

    People are usually talented in different areas. The most nerdy engineer in the office, will probably not be promoted to management. But the best manager, will probably not be the most technically expert employee in the company.

    Perhaps nationalities can remind in this. Arabs are not good in politics/society organization, to say this mildly (some of the worst politics in the world), but the best countries for political organization (i.e. Switzerland, New Zealand, Great Britain, Norway), are not always the best in food.

    In the post-Ottoman society, lack of attainments in politics, have been surely compensated in some other areas. Cooking expertise seems one of the most obvious.

    The worse the politics, more dictators and secret police, perhaps implies people hide in the kitchen, developing perfect recipes for za’atar.

    I also think the traditional Arab kitchen, has healthy recipes, at least when they use traditional ingredients only. Lebanese cuisine looks like somekind of health shop.

    “Molokheya”. My guess is that many foreigners will find it too weird and exotic.

    I never saw this before, but it could be popular for foreigners. If you begin a restaurant in Greenwich village selling this, it will probably become a new fashion potential. This green color implies it is healthy. And it’s not famous, so it would be the new cool food.

    Koshary

    There are other national dishes that are less luxurious and more “Staple Food” go poor Egyptians.

    I remember an Israeli YouTuber I subscribed to talking about this recently https://youtu.be/1SypPL_z444?t=213. although probably he doesn’t know much what he is talking about, as he talks a bit like stereotypical tourist about Egypt. In New York, I think this could also become a fastfood, popular with celebrities. Imagine some chains of Koshary in Brooklyn.

    • Replies: @Yahya
    @Dmitry


    There is a very disappointing sentence, even I feel hurt by this betrayal of the Arabian tradition.
     
    Lol, well if it helps, I did learn how to cook eggs among other things during my university days. Nothing special, just basic dishes like eggs with beef bacon, salmon fillet, and pasta etc. But almost always with an aid of videos or websites. I could perhaps re-learn to cook these items, but I’ve no need to cook in Egypt. There are servants here that do these things better, and ordering from restaurants is very affordable.

    In Boston I was compelled to cook after finding that 95% of restaurants were mediocre. The only nice restaurants were high-end ones like Maestro or Strip; but they cost an arm and a leg and of course were unsuitable for regular consumption.

    The whole culinary experience in Boston was very disappointing. Supposedly there are lots of Italian-Americans around in the area; but I didn’t eat a single good pizza during my time in the city. You can find better pizza in my little neighborhood in Cairo. The restaurants in Boston tend to be clean and well-designed; but otherwise the food is uninspiring.

    What I do miss about Boston is the chic coffee shops where you can have a bourgeois-style breakfast while reading a book and drinking artisan coffee. You can’t really do that in Egypt. One of my favorite breakfast places was this artisan Israeli-Jewish joint called Tatte (https://tattebakery.com). They served Arabic-style food which I appreciated, since it was hard to come by in Boston. The shawarma joints in Boston totally sucked; they couldn’t replicate the taste of authentic Middle Eastern food. The chicken in the US was uniformly atrocious; they just put in special chemicals that make it taste bland and inauthentic. The steak on the other hand was excellent.


    Do they use mainly olive oil in Egypt
     
    Yes, olive oil is used frequently with fava beans as a staple breakfast for Egyptians. Statistics all over the place, but Egypt ranks below Greece, Italy and Spain in olive oil consumption.

    There is one of the questions we discussed earlier. Is Egypt the Levant or North Africa? I was sure it is Levant, but you thought it was not Levant.
     
    Egypt is more Levantine than North African. But still, it is quite distinct from the Levant. If you are familiar with the nuances of the region, first key difference you’ll notice is the distinctive Egyptian dialect which is quite apart from Levantine Arabic; or any other Arabic dialect for that matter. Egypt is big enough population-wise to have its own culture separate from any Arab bloc. Egyptian phenotypes also tend to be darker and more Afro-looking than Levantines.

    I don’t fault you for thinking Egypt is part of the Levant. There’s been significant cultural and historical interaction between the two regions; going all the way back to the Bronze Age. In the 20th century many Levantines emigrated to Egypt and integrated fairly quickly into society; rising to become actors, singers, journalists etc. Amin Maalouf, a Lebanese Maronite who grew up in Egypt, mentions this in his book Adrift. Omar Sharif is commonly thought of as being Egyptian but is of Lebanese Greek Orthodox origin. The Syrian Druze duo Asmahan and Farid Al-Atrash were prominent singers in 20th century Egypt:

    https://youtu.be/p-oZAVAbi2M

    But still, when Egyptians refer to “the Levant” (bilad al-Sham) it’s always using “them” not “us”. The identity is separate.


    If you look in bookshops in Europe, there are the most popular cooking books are often relating to Middle Eastern food.
     
    Well I can imagine that Europeans would be allured by the exotic cuisine of the Near East. But this is not unique really to Middle Eastern food. When I visited the Louvre a month ago; about half of the exhibition items were Near Eastern: Persia, Egypt and Mesopotamia.

    For food; I guess they should look to Syria first, as they in my opinion have the best food in the region, closely followed by Turkey and Lebanon. Syrians also tend to pay more attention to aesthetics in food presentation; something Egyptians don’t do well in. This is a nice Syrian cookbook with a cool Arabic calligraphy on the cover:

    https://www.amazon.com/Scents-Flavors-Cookbook-Library-Literature/dp/1479856282

    Not surprised it would sell well.

    Replies: @Sher Singh, @Dmitry

    , @Mr. Hack
    @Dmitry


    Turkey is also famous for food, and food diversity (as center of the Ottoman empire), so this is perhaps more regional than ethnic (Turks vs Arabs).
     
    Have you, or for that matter anybody else that frequents this blogsite (Yahya?) read any of the Inspector Yashim novels? They look deliciously interesting, as does Jason Goodwin's (byzantologist turned successful novelist) sumptuous looking cookbook "Yashim Cooks Istanbul: Culinary Adventures in the Ottoman Kitchen", an illustrated cookbook selected as one of NPR’s Best Books of 2016 and shortlisted for the Guild of Food Writer’s First Book Award. I love eggplant dishes and would buy any of these books, but they're no longer at my neighborhood Barnes and Nobles bookstore.

    https://img.thriftbooks.com/api/images/i/m/447D9067B631FBB4500BB9E1DB656E4A2E9F6727.jpg

    Amazon to the rescue!

    Replies: @Yahya

    , @Yahya
    @Dmitry


    I never saw this before, but it could be popular for foreigners. If you begin a restaurant in Greenwich village selling this, it will probably become a new fashion potential. This green color implies it is healthy. And it’s not famous, so it would be the new cool food.
     
    Found this interesting BBC article on Molokheya: https://www.bbc.com/travel/article/20210802-a-superfood-fit-for-a-pharaoh.

    Apparently it has its origins in Ancient Egypt; there are depictions of the leaf in tomb paintings. Also was consumed by Caliphs during the medieval period. One ruler even outlawed the green stew because he thought it made women more sexually aroused.

    It has significant health benefits:

    For those who can stomach the slime, their gut and waistline will thank them later. "It (molokhia) has all kinds of good digestive virtues," Berriedale-Johnson said. A recent study published in the Journal of Ethnopharmacology reveals that its leaves can even prevent gut inflammation and obesity.

    A superfood without the cult following or jacked-up prices, molokhia is packed with Vitamin C, E, potassium, iron and fibre. "It [molokhia] also contains certain antioxidant carotenoids and antioxidant elements, making a well-rounded and highly beneficial addition to your diet," Cairo-based child nutritionist Mai Amer told me of the nutritional powerhouse.
     
    So your idea of turning into a bourgeoise “health” fad could work out. You can market it as “The Pharaoh’s Stew” instead of the bland name it has now. Just think of the possibilities!
  454. @S
    @songbird


    I recall that in the original publication of Childhood’s End (early ’50s), there was some note at the beginning denouncing communism or atheism or something, but I would guess that was boilerplate, due to the irreligious plot, one of Clarke’s favorite themes – where man becomes God.
     
    If I remember right it was Childhood's End which featured 'back to nature' environmentalists who eschewed modern technology. And the invading 'aliens', who hid their physical appearance, in reality had the classical image of a dragon winged Satan. An odd book for the time I suppose.

    Replies: @songbird

    An odd book for the time I suppose.

    Indeed, and he wrote more than one, since he was an odd guy.

    [MORE]

    In 1975, he published a book, where a guy from Titan travels to Earth. Specifically at one point, USA, and he receives a compliment because he is a darker black, than everyone else (i.e., the entire population, just about), who are only moderately black, due to racial mixing. The reason, IIRC, he is a darker black is because he is a clone of his father who was a clone of his grandfather, an important pioneer and genius businessman on Titan, who could not reproduce sexually. He goes to Earth to get a clone of himself, and instead (I would say very creepily, due to some subtext and also Clarke’s backstory) returns with a clone child of his dead best friend to raise.

    Can’t help but think how much its themes seem to reflect or to have predicted the modern regime. And I think part of this convergence is due to the increasing influence of homosexuals.

    And the invading ‘aliens’, who hid their physical appearance, in reality had the classical image of a dragon winged Satan.

    This was a funny part of it. On a certain level, he was obviously trying to subvert appearances. (The evil-looking aliens were not really evil) But he was smart enough to understand that this was too ham-fisted. So, at one point, he had a character ask whether the aliens had imprinted themselves into human instincts through some negative experience in prehistoric times – i.e. a negative racial memory. But, then the alien answers that it was instead a racial premonition – that the events of the future, following their arrival, somehow worked their way back in time, to form a negative instinct in the human brain.

    • Replies: @S
    @songbird


    In 1975, he published a book, where a guy from Titan travels to Earth. Specifically at one point, USA, and he receives a compliment because he is a darker black, than everyone else (i.e., the entire population, just about), who are only moderately black, due to racial mixing.
     
    Yes, Clarke, a presumed so called 'progressive', as with a great many of that unfortunately very influential ilk within the Anglosphere, seems to share their perverse/sick fetish and obsession for the crude breeding out of existence (ie genocide in the truest sense of that often much abused term) of White European peoples with Sub-Saharan Africans, to create a new slave man to repopulate the Earth with, having the highly desired characteristics from the elite's vantage of being 'more mixed', 'more docile', and 'which can submit to a master', as the London Times once described him as being.



    I believe this fetish was inherited from the progs slave dealing/owning political and spiritual forebears in places such as New England and in the slave dealing centers of England, where they brutally directed the Trans-Atlantic slave trade from.

    George Lucas in his 1970 movie THX-1138 also would seem to be infected with this same sick Sub-Saharan fetish.

    Mind you, none of this is about them actually really and truly caring about 'Blacks', and it's certainly not about them caring about Euros, it's all about their narcissistic selves and their faux 'virtue signaling' which they engage in.

    On a certain level, he was obviously trying to subvert appearances. (The evil-looking aliens were not really evil) ...But, then the alien answers that it was instead a racial premonition – that the events of the future, following their arrival, somehow worked their way back in time, to form a negative instinct in the human brain.
     
    In hindsight this does make me wonder a bit about Clarke and any involvement he may have had with the occult.

    As you are probably aware, there is a belief amongst at least some Christians that the alien contact phenomena is in reality a demonic affair, and that amongst 'the contactees', there is quite a bit of overlap with them also being occult practitioners.

    While I believe there is almost certainly other life out there, whether there has been actual alien contact is quite another matter. Taking the context of the present times into account, there are without doubt people who would fake alien contact/invasion to further their own political ends and lusts for power.

    The technology is available to do such a thing, or, at least attempt to.
  455. @LatW
    @Dmitry

    I know of a Celto-Nordo British coupling where the mother has pitch black hair with hazel eyes and tan skin (could pass for Mediterranean) and the father has dark hair and very pale skin and crystal blue eyes - they had two very fair children, a platinum blond daughter (who retained her platinum blonde hair into adulthood) and a blond boy whose hair turned dark in adulthood (both pale with light blue eyed).

    To me as an N.East Euro, where everyone has the same color pretty much, this is totally impossible to grasp (especially the blond blue eyed gene being so dominant in children). Granted, the father has some Norwegian genes (and mother some ancient Scots - Nordic ones).

    Btw, if you notice, many of those so called "black Irish" have very pale skin. I don't get how the British can be so diverse.

    Replies: @Dmitry

    I used to live in Republic of Ireland. Sure, dark hair is not so uncommon in this region (Ireland is not Finland).

    Also there is diversity terms of how they speak in Ireland. Mostly they have clear English. But there are some which have strong accents (because of different areas) which nobody will able to understand, except people from the same area.

    The main thing is how extrovert, talkative and relaxed they are compared to anywhere in Northern Europe.

    Although the country is well organized and developed, there is some expected consequence of the “Jamaican” attitude to life, a lot of young people are in the side of the street smoking cannabis at 2pm on Monday. It could be because of the colonialism and it reminds a bit of African American culture. When you are a low responsibility in politics and can be punished by the rulers, perhaps a strategy is to talk quickly and know how to relax. And when you don’t like your rulers, the concept of duty becomes weaker.

    Btw, if you notice, many of those so called “black Irish” have very pale skin.

    This is Irish blood like Jennifer Connelly.

    But it seems like Alec Baldwin’s wife has just covered with too much black dye to the hair and fake tan solutions because she wanted to be latino instead of white. She added enough fake tan to become darker than most latino people. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Uui8TfMXgc.

    Trying not to be white is kind of internationally common not only in America though – you know in Russia, people are boasting if they have the non-Russian ancestor. Although it’s not determined by skin color (if you found you have an ancestor from England or France, there would be probably even more boasting about this).

    British can be so diverse.

    I think Princess Kate and Princess Diana looks like different nationalities (maybe native people vs Norman people).

    And, Prince Charles, Prince Philips and Prince William looks like a third nationality (mafia that was intermarrying across centuries in Central Europe).

    Princess Kate looks almost too local to the island and healthy to be in such an elite family.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @Dmitry


    I think Princess Kate and Princess Diana looks like different nationalities (maybe native people vs Norman people).

    And, Prince Charles, Prince Philips and Prince William looks like a third nationality (mafia that was intermarrying across centuries in Central Europe).

    Princess Kate looks almost too local to the island and healthy to be in such an elite family.
     

    Obviously, just some subjective comments, for provoking forum entertainment. (Perhaps science would indicate her origin is the same as Prince Charles).

    But with the subjective confirmation bias, when you read Prince Kate is middle class, not related to the British royal family.

    After your read this about her, with the confirmation bias, she looks to you also like someone from a different origin.

    https://i.imgur.com/t5TPxsN.jpg

    Replies: @Greasy William

    , @LatW
    @Dmitry


    In terms of historically, Poland was not part of the Soviet Union or Russian Empire. Although again, I’m not sure this is predictive for the economic future. Estonia is former territory of the Russian Empire and USSR. But Estonia has been one of the more fast converging countries in the EU.
     
    Estonia was never fully run by Eastern Slavs, not even during the Empire times. Estonia was never fully Sovietized and Russified during the Soviet times either. They didn't fully even ever speak Russian (unlike in Latvia and Lithuania and even there only two generations spoke Russian as the second language, none of my grandparents did, for example, they spoke German as the second language). The Baltic States had to drive out the Soviets in 1920 by force when they tried to come back. Ukraine didn't manage to, not even Western Ukraine, unfortunately - Ukraine's situation was objectively more difficult (even by the standards of that period). Latvia was more Sovietized than Estonia because it was the main Baltic military center and strategically more important than Estonia.

    As to Ukraine, yes, they may seem a little less organized (they have also had more challenging situations to deal with), but there is a certain overlap with Estonia there, if you care to look, in particular in the upper managerial class in places such as Kyiv. Before the war their startup culture was being built up and it would've grown and it was becoming globally competitive just like Estonian (with their own flavor maybe). Because of the invasion, they had to expatriate their companies in some cases.

    They have a technical advantage in some ways. Also, before the war they started competing with us with agricultural product that was imported into the EU. This could've also been elaborated and expanded on and would've brought them some success. So they do have potential, even potential to compete at the highest global level. They are also able to organize themselves from the bottom, they have a giant volunteer network that basically functions on its own. They can build a solid upper managerial class that can help them organize themselves quite well.

    So it's not a black and white picture. What was shown in the international media, was mostly the negative sides. Donbas culture in some ways is also a very particular post-industrial culture. But even the post-Soviet culture in the East was successful in some ways, if you remember the new things they had built there.

    At the state level, there were not as organized but mostly unprepared for the extremely challenging situation that befell them. In the Baltic States, a lot of those negative and more violent displays would've been tackled immediately, preemptively, with force before they get out of control. The temper in the Baltics is also more subdued and, most importantly, these issues were never as challenging or widespread as in Ukraine, or as heavily influenced from outside. The mistake was to not use enough force where it was needed and too much force where it was not needed. But I do not blame them, their situation was very challenging.

    I used to live in Republic of Ireland. Sure, dark hair is not so uncommon in this region (Ireland is not Finland).
     
    Yea, but they have dark hair with pale skin and light eyes, not tan skin. Some British can also be platinum blond like Finns (not sure which British those are mostly, maybe Scots who are closer to Norwegians or maybe Irish from places like Cork and Dingle where they are very tall). And with porcelain color skin, whereas the Norwegians that are platinum blonde are a little more tan. Those are just different Northern types. A Northern Russian who is blondish will typically be neither tan nor very pale, but something in the middle, a normal N.Euro white, which is what I like most.

    The main thing is how extrovert, talkative and relaxed they are compared to anywhere in Northern Europe.
     
    Absolutely, they have a very sweet personality. The rest of Euros are total meanies in comparison (maybe with the exception of French and Italian), especially the sombre EEs with their permanently dark and critical outlook.

    But it seems like Alec Baldwin’s wife has just covered with too much black dye to the hair and fake tan solutions because she wanted to be latino instead of white.
     
    I don't know, sometimes women add color even to dark hair to make the hair look shinier and more evenly colored. Is she fully Irish or half-Irish half Hispanic. In the US, Irish and Italian mixes are quite common for religious reasons. And speaking of black hair dye, it used to be a fashion for some EE girls to color their hair black to have "brighter" and more visible hair, as opposed to the "boring" dark blond shade (my preference has always been to go the other way and just add blond highlights).

    Have you seen Alec Baldwin's daughter with Kim Basinger, Ireland Baldwin? I think she's naturally a dark blonde with light eyes. I absolutely love Kim Basinger, from what I gather she's English, Irish, Swedish... she doesn't strike me as typically British though. I know a Latvian woman who looks a lot like her.

    Trying not to be white is kind of internationally common not only in America though – you know in Russia, people are boasting if they have the non-Russian ancestor.
     
    In America, whites still have an advantage in the dating market. White women might still have an advantage at work, but that may be changing now.

    As to Russia, that's kind of endearing and understandable in a large country. I've noticed that many Russians try to pretend they have "Frenchness". But more culturally not ethnically. I would say, I'm more into "authentic" East Slavic types though.

    Replies: @Dmitry

  456. @AP
    @Beckow


    Britain and France were strengthened after their World War I victory.

    Absolutely, they were strengthened – they dominated Europe as almost never before
     

    Not, they were terminally weakened and swept away in the next war, despite victory and territorial acquisition as a result of the victory in the First World War. Your low educational level is on display again.

    The big winner was the USA, which mostly stayed out but supplied the allies throughout the war.

    Seem familiar?


    Pyrrhic victory

    You are stuck on this rather infantile concept that has no similarity to today’s situation. Pyrrha invaded Italy and won 1-2 battles
     

    Now you are thinking like an Autist, I remember you were triggered when I had used that term earlier, so I deliberately used it again.

    The term in the English language simply means “won at too great a cost to have been worthwhile for the victor.”

    No analogy to the specific victory by Pyrrhus’s military was implied in the use of that common phrase.

    This is how normal people use that phrase. It is our former host’s prediction as the most likely outcome.


    Instead you sound like a moron. Putin=Pyrrha, right, how incredibly stupid can you be.

     

    It is funny to witness the wound-be lackey seethe when things don’t go well for his desired master. Don’t worry, you’ll find someone else to serve.

    The icing on the cake is that in your historical illiteracy you didn’t even know that the Greek king was called Pyrrhus. Who is Pyrrha?

    Replies: @Wokechoke, @Mr. Hack, @Beckow

    France was swept away. The UK handed over military power to New England in essence. English became confirmed as the language for science, business and Art.

    What England lost in WW2 was the exclusivity of the Insular Isolationism it had enjoyed.
    WW1 did abolish France though. Which happily became subordinate to Germany with Vichy.

  457. @Dmitry
    @LatW

    I used to live in Republic of Ireland. Sure, dark hair is not so uncommon in this region (Ireland is not Finland).

    Also there is diversity terms of how they speak in Ireland. Mostly they have clear English. But there are some which have strong accents (because of different areas) which nobody will able to understand, except people from the same area.

    The main thing is how extrovert, talkative and relaxed they are compared to anywhere in Northern Europe.

    Although the country is well organized and developed, there is some expected consequence of the "Jamaican" attitude to life, a lot of young people are in the side of the street smoking cannabis at 2pm on Monday. It could be because of the colonialism and it reminds a bit of African American culture. When you are a low responsibility in politics and can be punished by the rulers, perhaps a strategy is to talk quickly and know how to relax. And when you don't like your rulers, the concept of duty becomes weaker.


    Btw, if you notice, many of those so called “black Irish” have very pale skin.

     

    This is Irish blood like Jennifer Connelly.

    But it seems like Alec Baldwin's wife has just covered with too much black dye to the hair and fake tan solutions because she wanted to be latino instead of white. She added enough fake tan to become darker than most latino people. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Uui8TfMXgc.

    Trying not to be white is kind of internationally common not only in America though - you know in Russia, people are boasting if they have the non-Russian ancestor. Although it's not determined by skin color (if you found you have an ancestor from England or France, there would be probably even more boasting about this).


    British can be so diverse.

     

    I think Princess Kate and Princess Diana looks like different nationalities (maybe native people vs Norman people).

    And, Prince Charles, Prince Philips and Prince William looks like a third nationality (mafia that was intermarrying across centuries in Central Europe).

    Princess Kate looks almost too local to the island and healthy to be in such an elite family.

    Replies: @Dmitry, @LatW

    I think Princess Kate and Princess Diana looks like different nationalities (maybe native people vs Norman people).

    And, Prince Charles, Prince Philips and Prince William looks like a third nationality (mafia that was intermarrying across centuries in Central Europe).

    Princess Kate looks almost too local to the island and healthy to be in such an elite family.

    Obviously, just some subjective comments, for provoking forum entertainment. (Perhaps science would indicate her origin is the same as Prince Charles).

    But with the subjective confirmation bias, when you read Prince Kate is middle class, not related to the British royal family.

    After your read this about her, with the confirmation bias, she looks to you also like someone from a different origin.

    • Replies: @Greasy William
    @Dmitry

    she's so beautiful

  458. The RAND article along with comments Putin has made and Russia’s failure to carry out additional rounds of mobilization would all seem to suggest that Russia is not seeking, and will not seek, any definitive military victory in Ukraine. Rather the plan appears to just be to continuously apply relatively low level pressure and just wait out the Western alliance. The West will never fully sell out Ukraine but they could force Ukraine to accept an armistice that the Ukrainians would otherwise not be receptive to.

    The first big test for the Western alliance likely comes this fall with the approaching debt ceiling crisis in the United States. A large number of House Republicans are going to be advocating for ending Ukrainian aid as a condition for raising the debt ceiling. Normally, that wouldn’t be an issue because the overwhelming majority of Republican House members support arming Ukraine, but given that the US will be in a severe recession at the time and given that the Republican party is completely dysfunctional and it’s leader (Trump) will be calling for an end to Ukrainian aid, this could get ugly.

    Now make no mistake: aid to Ukraine absolutely will not be cut. But the fact that the US is even discussing cutting off Ukraine and the overt dysfunction that is guaranteed to be displayed will shake the confidence of other NATO states and may even get some within Ukraine to wonder if they aren’t better off making an agreement with Russia before their American patrons completely implode.

    • Replies: @A123
    @Greasy William


    Now make no mistake: aid to Ukraine absolutely will not be cut
     
    Aide to Ukraine definitely WILL be cut. The only question is by how much?

    shake the confidence of other NATO states
     
    Many NATO members will approve. Hungary will be ecstatic. Germany's unilateral "Declaration of War" against Russia is not going over very well. (1)

    ‘I’ve never seen this kind of madness!’ — Croatian president slams German foreign minister’s ‘We are at war with Russia’ remark

    Zoran Milanović wished Germany better luck this time around than in World War II, but insisted Croatia would play no part in the conflict

     

    Milanovic’s attitude to the remarks by the German foreign minister was echoed in Hungary with Foreign Minister Péter Szijjártó telling reporters on Thursday, “We are not at war with anybody, we do not want to be at war with anybody.

    “We want to stay out of this war, and the security of Hungary and the Hungarian people is the most important thing for us.”
     
    The European Empire has a huge problem. Germany's prestige is at stake and they cannot back up their anti-Russian over reach.

    PEACE 😇
    __________

    (1) https://rmx.news/croatia/ive-never-seen-this-kind-of-madness-croatian-president-slams-german-foreign-ministers-we-are-at-war-with-russia-remark/
    , @Mr. Hack
    @Greasy William


    given that the US will be in a severe recession at the time
     
    Doesn't look like this is going to happen any time soon, the economy is continuing to hum along? And really, how many hard core Republican Maggots are firmly entrenched to carry through on such an action?

    https://images.seattletimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/Zelensky-Congress-ONLINE-COLOR.jpg?d=780x520

    Trump is not around anymore, and likely not to return - without Pence and the evangelical southern vote, Trump is toast.

    Replies: @LatW

    , @Mikhail
    @Greasy William

    Related and quite good:

    https://strategic-culture.org/news/2023/01/27/war-is-racket-tanks-lot-now-give-us-f16/

  459. @Dmitry
    @Dmitry


    I think Princess Kate and Princess Diana looks like different nationalities (maybe native people vs Norman people).

    And, Prince Charles, Prince Philips and Prince William looks like a third nationality (mafia that was intermarrying across centuries in Central Europe).

    Princess Kate looks almost too local to the island and healthy to be in such an elite family.
     

    Obviously, just some subjective comments, for provoking forum entertainment. (Perhaps science would indicate her origin is the same as Prince Charles).

    But with the subjective confirmation bias, when you read Prince Kate is middle class, not related to the British royal family.

    After your read this about her, with the confirmation bias, she looks to you also like someone from a different origin.

    https://i.imgur.com/t5TPxsN.jpg

    Replies: @Greasy William

    she’s so beautiful

  460. @songbird
    @A123


    I suspect Birmingham, UK is much more pale.
     
    In relative terms, certainly, though I am not sure I would employ that specific adjective, to cast the overall environment.

    But there is certainly something to be said for concentration. One of the main tenants of chemistry (ex: toothpaste vs. rat poison), but undervalued in most other fields.

    BTW, returning to the Veritas story. I suspect another reason gays may be more susceptible is that they have a smaller field to play, so they might be more desperate. (or, maybe, it has grown?)

    Replies: @A123

    I suspect another reason gays may be more susceptible is that they have a smaller field to play

    In my opinion it is more the overweening presence of SJW privilege. Arrogance leads to hubris, which leads to a giant fall. The ancient Greeks warned of this.

    They created (or at least popularized) these techniques, and used against normal people. Now that normies are using the tool set SJW’s created (such as taping what they actually say) the Leftoids are upset.

    Make the enemy live up to their own book of rules. You can kill them with this, — Saul Alinsky

    Using fear to silence people and drive them from the public square is the world they chose to make. If they wanted civility… They should have been civil.

    Below is another worthwhile expose about how deviant The Woke are.

    PEACE 😇
    __________

    Iman Rasti, Director of Writing Center; Middle School English Teacher; Seventh Grade Dean at Greens Farms Academy

    • Thanks: songbird
  461. @Beckow
    @AP


    Britain and France were strengthened after their World War I victory.
     
    Absolutely, they were strengthened - they dominated Europe as almost never before. France in particular was a big winner of WW1. Why would winning a war make you weaker? That is just stupid wishful throw-away nonsense.

    Pyrrhic victory
     
    You are stuck on this rather infantile concept that has no similarity to today's situation. Pyrrha invaded Italy and won 1-2 battles but lost so many men and equipment that he had to withdraw. If you think that Russia will run out of men and weapons right on its own borders you are living in a lala land. Pyrrha had serious logistics issues to resupply his troops, do you see Russia as experiencing something similar? Why would they. Your analogy is literally retarded - a shallow, uneducated quip to make yourself feel better. Instead you sound like a moron. Putin=Pyrrha, right, how incredibly stupid can you be.

    Replies: @AP, @Emil Nikola Richard

    >> Britain and France were strengthened after their World War I victory.

    > Absolutely, they were strengthened – they dominated Europe as almost never before. France in particular was a big winner of WW1. Why would winning a war make you weaker? That is just stupid wishful throw-away nonsense.

    In the Yale U youtube History Europe class they had a guest lecture for the WWI mop up class. The guest lecturer claimed WWI was the end of British Empire. Their stupidity in this self destruction cost them all status with the Empire subjects.

    Before: all the wogs and negroes and whatnot were sold on the superiority of the white civilization.

    After: the attitude was these guys are idiots.

    • Replies: @Yahya
    @Emil Nikola Richard


    Before: all the wogs and negroes and whatnot were sold on the superiority of the white civilization.
    After: the attitude was these guys are idiots.
     
    I remember reading an article once describing how Chinese government officials used to revere the American financial system; trying to emulate it and other aspects of the US economy.

    Then the ‘08 crisis occurred; and they lost their myth-like reverence. One can see the effects on increased state control over the financial sector in China.
    , @Beckow
    @Emil Nikola Richard

    They teach a lot of nonsense at Yale. British Empire (and the French) lasted 20-30 or more years after WW1. They were both strengthened and enlarged after WW1, they dominated Europe - no more German-Habsburg competition. The argument that they were facing the end is ahistorical - a projection based in what happened later, mostly in WW2 and after. (WW2 was won by Russia and US, a different situation).


    Before:...superiority of the white civilization.
    After: the attitude was these guys are idiots.
     
    That was a lengthy historical process. Something similar is happening to US reputation. But it wasn't like the negroes and Indians woke up in 1918 and started to despise Europeans. Nothing that happened in 20's-30's suggests that - actually the enormous destruction and weapons of WW1 were probably quite intimidating.

    My point holds: winning a war strengthens a country. Washington has not thought this through: you never start a war where the enemy has a lot better chance to eventually win. But they have been doing it for decades, loss after loss: Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria. That is just stupidity. The odds are that Ukraine will be added to the list.

    Replies: @Coconuts, @Wokechoke, @AP

  462. @Greasy William
    The RAND article along with comments Putin has made and Russia's failure to carry out additional rounds of mobilization would all seem to suggest that Russia is not seeking, and will not seek, any definitive military victory in Ukraine. Rather the plan appears to just be to continuously apply relatively low level pressure and just wait out the Western alliance. The West will never fully sell out Ukraine but they could force Ukraine to accept an armistice that the Ukrainians would otherwise not be receptive to.

    The first big test for the Western alliance likely comes this fall with the approaching debt ceiling crisis in the United States. A large number of House Republicans are going to be advocating for ending Ukrainian aid as a condition for raising the debt ceiling. Normally, that wouldn't be an issue because the overwhelming majority of Republican House members support arming Ukraine, but given that the US will be in a severe recession at the time and given that the Republican party is completely dysfunctional and it's leader (Trump) will be calling for an end to Ukrainian aid, this could get ugly.

    Now make no mistake: aid to Ukraine absolutely will not be cut. But the fact that the US is even discussing cutting off Ukraine and the overt dysfunction that is guaranteed to be displayed will shake the confidence of other NATO states and may even get some within Ukraine to wonder if they aren't better off making an agreement with Russia before their American patrons completely implode.

    Replies: @A123, @Mr. Hack, @Mikhail

    Now make no mistake: aid to Ukraine absolutely will not be cut

    Aide to Ukraine definitely WILL be cut. The only question is by how much?

    shake the confidence of other NATO states

    Many NATO members will approve. Hungary will be ecstatic. Germany’s unilateral “Declaration of War” against Russia is not going over very well. (1)

    ‘I’ve never seen this kind of madness!’ — Croatian president slams German foreign minister’s ‘We are at war with Russia’ remark

    Zoran Milanović wished Germany better luck this time around than in World War II, but insisted Croatia would play no part in the conflict

    Milanovic’s attitude to the remarks by the German foreign minister was echoed in Hungary with Foreign Minister Péter Szijjártó telling reporters on Thursday, “We are not at war with anybody, we do not want to be at war with anybody.

    “We want to stay out of this war, and the security of Hungary and the Hungarian people is the most important thing for us.”

    The European Empire has a huge problem. Germany’s prestige is at stake and they cannot back up their anti-Russian over reach.

    PEACE 😇
    __________

    (1) https://rmx.news/croatia/ive-never-seen-this-kind-of-madness-croatian-president-slams-german-foreign-ministers-we-are-at-war-with-russia-remark/

  463. @AP
    @Greasy William


    Strong disagree. Putin has always been a terrible leader. Yeltsin shepherded the country through the chaos and misery of the 90s
     
    The Russian economy didn’t do well under Yeltsin in the 90s and crashed further in ‘98 (making 1999 a great year for buying a flat in Moscow).

    left Putin with a rapidly recovering country and a clear path towards greater reform. But not only did Putin not continue the reformist path
     
    The idea that Putin opposed the oligarchs that flourished under Yeltsin is of course a myth; what he did was stabilize the system, kicked out particularly oligarchs who weren’t team players and were bad for stability, and enabled a lot of the wealth to trickle down to regular people, such that Russians were probably the wealthiest they had been in their history. But the system remained in place: if for example an upstart became wealthy and successful he would be forced to sell to one of the established oligarch interests. But this wouldn’t matter much for regular people.

    Oil helped a lot of course but there are other places with oil where most people do poorly.


    As for the war, the losses Russia has suffered don’t matter because Russians don’t care about losses

     

    Whether or not they care isn’t as important as the fact that Russia has lost a huge number of equipment (thousands of fighting vehicles, artillery pieces, dozens of aircraft, their Black Sea Fleet flagship) and many well trained men. The mass deaths of prisoners might be a positive thing from an amoral perspective (don’t have to pay for their housing anymore if they are dead in a field outside Bakhmut) but also thousands of elite paratroopers and other normal forces have been killed or permanently maimed.

    Meanwhile what has this cost the USA? 6% of the defense budget, much of which is not cash but the value of equipment that had been gathering dust in storage but which is now used to decimate the Russian military. Without the loss of any American lives.


    Meanwhile, if Russia wins not only does it gain population, energy and industry
     
    The population gain is minimal, most people flee the Russians, you’ll have a lot of pensioners who couldn’t flee left behind. I guess the money saved by not having to house inmates will be used to feed the new population.

    If it’s small enough*, Western Ukraine free of Russia will have more people than before, and places like Poland will add millions of young educated hardworking assimilable Slavs to their population.

    The industry will be wrecked during the process of the war. Russia’s only real gain would be some more rich agricultural lands. Not worth all the losses in men, equipment, economy. At best it will be like French and British victory in World War I. “Liberation” of Alsace and getting some of Germany’s African colonies wasn’t worth it.

    *In the extremely unlikely event that Russia takes all the East and South or even Kiev. Most likely is a stalemate, with Russia maybe taking Bakhmut or even Kramatorsk, Ukraine taking another village or three elsewhere. Wouldn’t rule out Ukrainian breakthrough into the Crimean corridor.

    Replies: @Yahya, @Dmitry

    wealth to trickle down to regular people,

    More money was coming, but they were also receiving more money. So, it’s not sure the proportion of money they were cutting from the budget was reducing, it’s possible it was increasing, this information will be not clear.

    There was the attainment of more order or stability in the society. For big mafia, it’s not their self-interest to allow small mafia. So, there was reduction of small mafia. As they say, the small corruption was reduced, but big corruption increased.

    Another thing is religion of the upper class is to move money away from Russia, which is not condemnable (it was rational), but it has been an increasingly strong culture of the upper class, so most of the children (also many parents) of upper class has voluntarily exiled. Voluntary exile has even become the status symbol of being elite. This isn’t originating with Putin, but was common in Yeltsin’s time. However, the moving money away from Russia increased in the 2000s, as partly there was far more money as the oil price increased by multiple times, it’s also likely the proportion increased as the general increase in the quantity of money would cover this.

    wealthiest they had been in their history.

    Compared to Soviet times when the investments were originating, most of the public services (schools, hospitals, universities) have decayed.

    It’s not exactly the government’s responsibility. But as the time extends from the government who had invested (before 1991), the decay was becoming more obvious. So, when you compare the universities to Western universities. It feels like you had some kind of “hazing”.

    When you see the hospital you were born in, you can say like Tupac “I came from the gutter”. But actually the hospital was better in the past. It’s because there has been decades without adequate investment in the hospital, so even a hospital which was clean and attractive in 1978, will not look attractive in 2017 if you don’t invest in it.

    This is “optimization”, but it’s not such easy to trust optimization to invest the money in a better area.

    So, when a company is doing “optimization”, you as investor will hope they then e.g. re-invest the money to build more assembly lines. But this “optimization” in the Russian public services, is often not to re-distribute money to another area of the project. You can’t trust what is the end stage of the money that is optimized. When the person doing “optimization” is famous for their golf courses in Spain.

    There is also very strong increase in the inequality, especially regional inequality. This is original to the 1990s, when most of the level of inequality originates, but it has extended in the last years continued in a rapid speed (1991 was not so long in the past).

    And there was no investment for the future – for future industries. We discussed this many times in the forum, but you are a Putin supporter until this year, not necessarily without rationality (if they didn’t strip so much, the war would be going differently now, not so successfully in Ukraine’s perspective).

    And there was the culture and moral decline since even 1999. You can compared the television in 1999 to 2019. There was a very significant decline, accelerating after the 1990s.

    There is also educational decline. This is partly objectively, you can see the EGE exams. A lot is because of the retiring of teachers from Soviet times. Soviet times had much higher levels of pedagogy on average. This isn’t responsibility of the current authorities. But they didn’t seem to care about this trend.

    My view has been that Putin can be justified as pilot to the extent he doesn’t crash the plane into the ground (i.e. before February), but this is justification is accepting stripping a lot of the parts from the plane.

    I rated Putin’s governance and statesmanship highly – after all, he strengthened the Russian economy and defense after the collapse of the Soviet Union and tangibly increased the Russian standard of living. My evaluation of national leaders is based on a rather simple criteria – has he left the country in a better shape than he found it?

    Well it doesn’t make sense. Let’s say in the hypothetical sense. If you lose a lot of freedoms, but the GDP increases. Is it correct to say the situation is better?

    Also, there is the topic of improvement relative to time, situation and potential. If there is a slight improvement, but you have a lot of resources and a lot of time. Is this improvement very relevant?

    Also, if the country improves, but there is a indication politician is not necessarily responsible for this. Then do you say “the evaluation of the leader is positive”. For example, if the price of Nigeria’s oil exports increase, is this the responsibility of politicians, or the international market?

    The comparison has to be relative to the other possible future situations and requires a lot of knowledge about each area of the country which is a government’s responsibility (I’m not saying I have any of this knowledge).

  464. @Greasy William
    The RAND article along with comments Putin has made and Russia's failure to carry out additional rounds of mobilization would all seem to suggest that Russia is not seeking, and will not seek, any definitive military victory in Ukraine. Rather the plan appears to just be to continuously apply relatively low level pressure and just wait out the Western alliance. The West will never fully sell out Ukraine but they could force Ukraine to accept an armistice that the Ukrainians would otherwise not be receptive to.

    The first big test for the Western alliance likely comes this fall with the approaching debt ceiling crisis in the United States. A large number of House Republicans are going to be advocating for ending Ukrainian aid as a condition for raising the debt ceiling. Normally, that wouldn't be an issue because the overwhelming majority of Republican House members support arming Ukraine, but given that the US will be in a severe recession at the time and given that the Republican party is completely dysfunctional and it's leader (Trump) will be calling for an end to Ukrainian aid, this could get ugly.

    Now make no mistake: aid to Ukraine absolutely will not be cut. But the fact that the US is even discussing cutting off Ukraine and the overt dysfunction that is guaranteed to be displayed will shake the confidence of other NATO states and may even get some within Ukraine to wonder if they aren't better off making an agreement with Russia before their American patrons completely implode.

    Replies: @A123, @Mr. Hack, @Mikhail

    given that the US will be in a severe recession at the time

    Doesn’t look like this is going to happen any time soon, the economy is continuing to hum along? And really, how many hard core Republican Maggots are firmly entrenched to carry through on such an action?

    Trump is not around anymore, and likely not to return – without Pence and the evangelical southern vote, Trump is toast.

    • Replies: @LatW
    @Mr. Hack

    The danger is that they will use Ukraine in their pre-election fighting, the MAGA want blood. To show that the White House cannot run the assistance program properly and that it's not audited properly, would really give them some material. Of course, it would be nasty to use Ukraine in such a way. Btw, did you hear that Marjorie Taylor Greene is going to try to be Trump's VP pick?

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @sudden death

  465. @Dmitry
    @Yahya


    can’t say being an Arab gives me special insight into food. I don’t even know how to cook eggs

     

    There is a very disappointing sentence, even I feel hurt by this betrayal of the Arabian tradition.

    I suppose I have some knowledge of Egyptian cuisine.
     
    Do they use mainly olive oil in Egypt. One of the unusual things I read recently, is that in many countries in North Africa where the olive oil industry is booming, they don't traditionally eat olive oil. For example, Morocco.

    There is one of the questions we discussed earlier. Is Egypt the Levant or North Africa? I was sure it is Levant, but you thought it was not Levant. If olive oil is traditional in Egypt, this could be evidence Egypt is Levant and vice-versa.


    Arabs were stereotyped as being knowledgeable about food in Europe
     
    If you look in bookshops in Europe, there are the most popular cooking books are often relating to Middle Eastern food.

    I've been in Israel, so obviously I know Arabs (whichever their religion) are experts about food. It's the national obsession of the Middle Eastern people. Turkey is also famous for food, and food diversity (as center of the Ottoman empire), so this is perhaps more regional than ethnic (Turks vs Arabs).

    My experiences in other Eastern Mediterranean Greece and Cyprus was not so special in terms of food though I still think Greeks have quite good food, not so distant from the Middle East.

    People are usually talented in different areas. The most nerdy engineer in the office, will probably not be promoted to management. But the best manager, will probably not be the most technically expert employee in the company.

    Perhaps nationalities can remind in this. Arabs are not good in politics/society organization, to say this mildly (some of the worst politics in the world), but the best countries for political organization (i.e. Switzerland, New Zealand, Great Britain, Norway), are not always the best in food.

    In the post-Ottoman society, lack of attainments in politics, have been surely compensated in some other areas. Cooking expertise seems one of the most obvious.

    The worse the politics, more dictators and secret police, perhaps implies people hide in the kitchen, developing perfect recipes for za'atar.

    I also think the traditional Arab kitchen, has healthy recipes, at least when they use traditional ingredients only. Lebanese cuisine looks like somekind of health shop.


    “Molokheya”. My guess is that many foreigners will find it too weird and exotic.

     

    I never saw this before, but it could be popular for foreigners. If you begin a restaurant in Greenwich village selling this, it will probably become a new fashion potential. This green color implies it is healthy. And it's not famous, so it would be the new cool food.


    Koshary

    There are other national dishes that are less luxurious and more “Staple Food” go poor Egyptians.
     

    I remember an Israeli YouTuber I subscribed to talking about this recently https://youtu.be/1SypPL_z444?t=213. although probably he doesn't know much what he is talking about, as he talks a bit like stereotypical tourist about Egypt. In New York, I think this could also become a fastfood, popular with celebrities. Imagine some chains of Koshary in Brooklyn.

    Replies: @Yahya, @Mr. Hack, @Yahya

    There is a very disappointing sentence, even I feel hurt by this betrayal of the Arabian tradition.

    Lol, well if it helps, I did learn how to cook eggs among other things during my university days. Nothing special, just basic dishes like eggs with beef bacon, salmon fillet, and pasta etc. But almost always with an aid of videos or websites. I could perhaps re-learn to cook these items, but I’ve no need to cook in Egypt. There are servants here that do these things better, and ordering from restaurants is very affordable.

    In Boston I was compelled to cook after finding that 95% of restaurants were mediocre. The only nice restaurants were high-end ones like Maestro or Strip; but they cost an arm and a leg and of course were unsuitable for regular consumption.

    The whole culinary experience in Boston was very disappointing. Supposedly there are lots of Italian-Americans around in the area; but I didn’t eat a single good pizza during my time in the city. You can find better pizza in my little neighborhood in Cairo. The restaurants in Boston tend to be clean and well-designed; but otherwise the food is uninspiring.

    What I do miss about Boston is the chic coffee shops where you can have a bourgeois-style breakfast while reading a book and drinking artisan coffee. You can’t really do that in Egypt. One of my favorite breakfast places was this artisan Israeli-Jewish joint called Tatte (https://tattebakery.com). They served Arabic-style food which I appreciated, since it was hard to come by in Boston. The shawarma joints in Boston totally sucked; they couldn’t replicate the taste of authentic Middle Eastern food. The chicken in the US was uniformly atrocious; they just put in special chemicals that make it taste bland and inauthentic. The steak on the other hand was excellent.

    Do they use mainly olive oil in Egypt

    Yes, olive oil is used frequently with fava beans as a staple breakfast for Egyptians. Statistics all over the place, but Egypt ranks below Greece, Italy and Spain in olive oil consumption.

    There is one of the questions we discussed earlier. Is Egypt the Levant or North Africa? I was sure it is Levant, but you thought it was not Levant.

    Egypt is more Levantine than North African. But still, it is quite distinct from the Levant. If you are familiar with the nuances of the region, first key difference you’ll notice is the distinctive Egyptian dialect which is quite apart from Levantine Arabic; or any other Arabic dialect for that matter. Egypt is big enough population-wise to have its own culture separate from any Arab bloc. Egyptian phenotypes also tend to be darker and more Afro-looking than Levantines.

    I don’t fault you for thinking Egypt is part of the Levant. There’s been significant cultural and historical interaction between the two regions; going all the way back to the Bronze Age. In the 20th century many Levantines emigrated to Egypt and integrated fairly quickly into society; rising to become actors, singers, journalists etc. Amin Maalouf, a Lebanese Maronite who grew up in Egypt, mentions this in his book Adrift. Omar Sharif is commonly thought of as being Egyptian but is of Lebanese Greek Orthodox origin. The Syrian Druze duo Asmahan and Farid Al-Atrash were prominent singers in 20th century Egypt:

    But still, when Egyptians refer to “the Levant” (bilad al-Sham) it’s always using “them” not “us”. The identity is separate.

    If you look in bookshops in Europe, there are the most popular cooking books are often relating to Middle Eastern food.

    Well I can imagine that Europeans would be allured by the exotic cuisine of the Near East. But this is not unique really to Middle Eastern food. When I visited the Louvre a month ago; about half of the exhibition items were Near Eastern: Persia, Egypt and Mesopotamia.

    For food; I guess they should look to Syria first, as they in my opinion have the best food in the region, closely followed by Turkey and Lebanon. Syrians also tend to pay more attention to aesthetics in food presentation; something Egyptians don’t do well in. This is a nice Syrian cookbook with a cool Arabic calligraphy on the cover:

    Not surprised it would sell well.

    • Replies: @Sher Singh
    @Yahya

    https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/962860873435713557/1068753904415809538/TA0939.jpg

    , @Dmitry
    @Yahya


    Boston I was compelled to cook after finding that 95% of restaurants were mediocre..
    hicken in the US was uniformly
     
    You were living in Boston? There you can share memories with Songbird. If I recall, he is not too much fan of chickens either.

    Europeans would be allured by the exotic cuisine of the Near East

     

    I would think, more the opposite, because it's not so exotic. The more fashionable cuisine in Europe in the second half of the 20th century was probably Italy and Spain.

    Traditional peasants' Italian food is similar to Near Eastern food. But there has been oversaturation about "pasta and pizza" that is overfocused from the exported Italian food.

    So, today people are looking for more similar recipes from the Mediterranean. More traditional and less industrialized. Have you noticed some of the popular cooking YouTubers are Egyptians.


    they should look to Syria first, as they in my opinion have the best food in the region, closely followed by Turkey
     
    But I'd guess most of the population of Syria has been too poor to have access to adequate mixes of ingredients even before the war (2011) damaged their agriculture, so a significant part of the population live in refugee camps today.

    -

    By the way, what do you think about this connoisseurship for dates like in Saudi Arabia?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bnJcyszCmb8

    Replies: @A123, @Yahya

  466. @Dmitry
    @Yahya


    can’t say being an Arab gives me special insight into food. I don’t even know how to cook eggs

     

    There is a very disappointing sentence, even I feel hurt by this betrayal of the Arabian tradition.

    I suppose I have some knowledge of Egyptian cuisine.
     
    Do they use mainly olive oil in Egypt. One of the unusual things I read recently, is that in many countries in North Africa where the olive oil industry is booming, they don't traditionally eat olive oil. For example, Morocco.

    There is one of the questions we discussed earlier. Is Egypt the Levant or North Africa? I was sure it is Levant, but you thought it was not Levant. If olive oil is traditional in Egypt, this could be evidence Egypt is Levant and vice-versa.


    Arabs were stereotyped as being knowledgeable about food in Europe
     
    If you look in bookshops in Europe, there are the most popular cooking books are often relating to Middle Eastern food.

    I've been in Israel, so obviously I know Arabs (whichever their religion) are experts about food. It's the national obsession of the Middle Eastern people. Turkey is also famous for food, and food diversity (as center of the Ottoman empire), so this is perhaps more regional than ethnic (Turks vs Arabs).

    My experiences in other Eastern Mediterranean Greece and Cyprus was not so special in terms of food though I still think Greeks have quite good food, not so distant from the Middle East.

    People are usually talented in different areas. The most nerdy engineer in the office, will probably not be promoted to management. But the best manager, will probably not be the most technically expert employee in the company.

    Perhaps nationalities can remind in this. Arabs are not good in politics/society organization, to say this mildly (some of the worst politics in the world), but the best countries for political organization (i.e. Switzerland, New Zealand, Great Britain, Norway), are not always the best in food.

    In the post-Ottoman society, lack of attainments in politics, have been surely compensated in some other areas. Cooking expertise seems one of the most obvious.

    The worse the politics, more dictators and secret police, perhaps implies people hide in the kitchen, developing perfect recipes for za'atar.

    I also think the traditional Arab kitchen, has healthy recipes, at least when they use traditional ingredients only. Lebanese cuisine looks like somekind of health shop.


    “Molokheya”. My guess is that many foreigners will find it too weird and exotic.

     

    I never saw this before, but it could be popular for foreigners. If you begin a restaurant in Greenwich village selling this, it will probably become a new fashion potential. This green color implies it is healthy. And it's not famous, so it would be the new cool food.


    Koshary

    There are other national dishes that are less luxurious and more “Staple Food” go poor Egyptians.
     

    I remember an Israeli YouTuber I subscribed to talking about this recently https://youtu.be/1SypPL_z444?t=213. although probably he doesn't know much what he is talking about, as he talks a bit like stereotypical tourist about Egypt. In New York, I think this could also become a fastfood, popular with celebrities. Imagine some chains of Koshary in Brooklyn.

    Replies: @Yahya, @Mr. Hack, @Yahya

    Turkey is also famous for food, and food diversity (as center of the Ottoman empire), so this is perhaps more regional than ethnic (Turks vs Arabs).

    Have you, or for that matter anybody else that frequents this blogsite (Yahya?) read any of the Inspector Yashim novels? They look deliciously interesting, as does Jason Goodwin’s (byzantologist turned successful novelist) sumptuous looking cookbook “Yashim Cooks Istanbul: Culinary Adventures in the Ottoman Kitchen”, an illustrated cookbook selected as one of NPR’s Best Books of 2016 and shortlisted for the Guild of Food Writer’s First Book Award. I love eggplant dishes and would buy any of these books, but they’re no longer at my neighborhood Barnes and Nobles bookstore.

    Amazon to the rescue!

    • Replies: @Yahya
    @Mr. Hack


    Have you, or for that matter anybody else that frequents this blogsite (Yahya?) read any of the Inspector Yashim novels?
     
    Never heard of them.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

  467. https://twitter.com/RWApodcast/status/1619038589479956480

    Your ancestors were not protecting you from NATO, NATO (The Western Right) in its 1980s glory was saving you from yourselves. The sole reason you exist in your current fashion is because my ancestors defeated communism, even though there were myriad groups in the West which wanted to go soft, just as they demand the same today with the CCP.

    This is why I say that some Lenin statues should be melted down and recast into statues of Ronald Reagan.

    • Replies: @LatW
    @216


    My family - and that of millions of average Soviet citizens - embodies all that was great in the USSR and all the "conscious minorities" from the Transcaucasus to the Baltics embody all that was bad. Leninist scum that switched to GAE loyalism as soon as they could.
     
    If these "conscious minorities" were such "scum" then why did you bother invading them?

    30% of the Soviet space program was Ukrainian. 80% of the Soviet national basketball team was Baltic and Georgian. Ungrateful hypocrite.

    Replies: @LatW

  468. @A123
    @songbird


    I was speaking of the one with more blacks. Namely, Birmingham, England.
     
    Birmingham, AL, USA is ~70% African American. I suspect Birmingham, UK is much more pale.

    PEACE 😇

    Replies: @songbird, @Wokechoke

    It’s full of Pakis and Niggers now.

  469. @Dmitry
    @LatW

    I used to live in Republic of Ireland. Sure, dark hair is not so uncommon in this region (Ireland is not Finland).

    Also there is diversity terms of how they speak in Ireland. Mostly they have clear English. But there are some which have strong accents (because of different areas) which nobody will able to understand, except people from the same area.

    The main thing is how extrovert, talkative and relaxed they are compared to anywhere in Northern Europe.

    Although the country is well organized and developed, there is some expected consequence of the "Jamaican" attitude to life, a lot of young people are in the side of the street smoking cannabis at 2pm on Monday. It could be because of the colonialism and it reminds a bit of African American culture. When you are a low responsibility in politics and can be punished by the rulers, perhaps a strategy is to talk quickly and know how to relax. And when you don't like your rulers, the concept of duty becomes weaker.


    Btw, if you notice, many of those so called “black Irish” have very pale skin.

     

    This is Irish blood like Jennifer Connelly.

    But it seems like Alec Baldwin's wife has just covered with too much black dye to the hair and fake tan solutions because she wanted to be latino instead of white. She added enough fake tan to become darker than most latino people. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Uui8TfMXgc.

    Trying not to be white is kind of internationally common not only in America though - you know in Russia, people are boasting if they have the non-Russian ancestor. Although it's not determined by skin color (if you found you have an ancestor from England or France, there would be probably even more boasting about this).


    British can be so diverse.

     

    I think Princess Kate and Princess Diana looks like different nationalities (maybe native people vs Norman people).

    And, Prince Charles, Prince Philips and Prince William looks like a third nationality (mafia that was intermarrying across centuries in Central Europe).

    Princess Kate looks almost too local to the island and healthy to be in such an elite family.

    Replies: @Dmitry, @LatW

    In terms of historically, Poland was not part of the Soviet Union or Russian Empire. Although again, I’m not sure this is predictive for the economic future. Estonia is former territory of the Russian Empire and USSR. But Estonia has been one of the more fast converging countries in the EU.

    Estonia was never fully run by Eastern Slavs, not even during the Empire times. Estonia was never fully Sovietized and Russified during the Soviet times either. They didn’t fully even ever speak Russian (unlike in Latvia and Lithuania and even there only two generations spoke Russian as the second language, none of my grandparents did, for example, they spoke German as the second language). The Baltic States had to drive out the Soviets in 1920 by force when they tried to come back. Ukraine didn’t manage to, not even Western Ukraine, unfortunately – Ukraine’s situation was objectively more difficult (even by the standards of that period). Latvia was more Sovietized than Estonia because it was the main Baltic military center and strategically more important than Estonia.

    As to Ukraine, yes, they may seem a little less organized (they have also had more challenging situations to deal with), but there is a certain overlap with Estonia there, if you care to look, in particular in the upper managerial class in places such as Kyiv. Before the war their startup culture was being built up and it would’ve grown and it was becoming globally competitive just like Estonian (with their own flavor maybe). Because of the invasion, they had to expatriate their companies in some cases.

    They have a technical advantage in some ways. Also, before the war they started competing with us with agricultural product that was imported into the EU. This could’ve also been elaborated and expanded on and would’ve brought them some success. So they do have potential, even potential to compete at the highest global level. They are also able to organize themselves from the bottom, they have a giant volunteer network that basically functions on its own. They can build a solid upper managerial class that can help them organize themselves quite well.

    So it’s not a black and white picture. What was shown in the international media, was mostly the negative sides. Donbas culture in some ways is also a very particular post-industrial culture. But even the post-Soviet culture in the East was successful in some ways, if you remember the new things they had built there.

    [MORE]

    At the state level, there were not as organized but mostly unprepared for the extremely challenging situation that befell them. In the Baltic States, a lot of those negative and more violent displays would’ve been tackled immediately, preemptively, with force before they get out of control. The temper in the Baltics is also more subdued and, most importantly, these issues were never as challenging or widespread as in Ukraine, or as heavily influenced from outside. The mistake was to not use enough force where it was needed and too much force where it was not needed. But I do not blame them, their situation was very challenging.

    I used to live in Republic of Ireland. Sure, dark hair is not so uncommon in this region (Ireland is not Finland).

    Yea, but they have dark hair with pale skin and light eyes, not tan skin. Some British can also be platinum blond like Finns (not sure which British those are mostly, maybe Scots who are closer to Norwegians or maybe Irish from places like Cork and Dingle where they are very tall). And with porcelain color skin, whereas the Norwegians that are platinum blonde are a little more tan. Those are just different Northern types. A Northern Russian who is blondish will typically be neither tan nor very pale, but something in the middle, a normal N.Euro white, which is what I like most.

    The main thing is how extrovert, talkative and relaxed they are compared to anywhere in Northern Europe.

    Absolutely, they have a very sweet personality. The rest of Euros are total meanies in comparison (maybe with the exception of French and Italian), especially the sombre EEs with their permanently dark and critical outlook.

    But it seems like Alec Baldwin’s wife has just covered with too much black dye to the hair and fake tan solutions because she wanted to be latino instead of white.

    I don’t know, sometimes women add color even to dark hair to make the hair look shinier and more evenly colored. Is she fully Irish or half-Irish half Hispanic. In the US, Irish and Italian mixes are quite common for religious reasons. And speaking of black hair dye, it used to be a fashion for some EE girls to color their hair black to have “brighter” and more visible hair, as opposed to the “boring” dark blond shade (my preference has always been to go the other way and just add blond highlights).

    Have you seen Alec Baldwin’s daughter with Kim Basinger, Ireland Baldwin? I think she’s naturally a dark blonde with light eyes. I absolutely love Kim Basinger, from what I gather she’s English, Irish, Swedish… she doesn’t strike me as typically British though. I know a Latvian woman who looks a lot like her.

    Trying not to be white is kind of internationally common not only in America though – you know in Russia, people are boasting if they have the non-Russian ancestor.

    In America, whites still have an advantage in the dating market. White women might still have an advantage at work, but that may be changing now.

    As to Russia, that’s kind of endearing and understandable in a large country. I’ve noticed that many Russians try to pretend they have “Frenchness”. But more culturally not ethnically. I would say, I’m more into “authentic” East Slavic types though.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @LatW

    @Mikhail

    Sure, my sentence is incompetently written, a lot of Poland is occupied by the Russian empire, but I mean not integrated in the full way, then their 20th century is very different. The parts which "become Russian" are really Lithuania/Latvia. Vilnius or Riga are becoming seen as cities of the Russian empire.


    . Estonia was never fully Sovietized
     
    Estonians were the most educated nationality in the empire the 19th century already, with the lowest fertility rate (which matches education level).

    very sweet personality. The rest of Euros are total meanies in comparison (maybe with the exception of French and Italian), especially the sombre EEs
     
    I would have to disagree a lot. Irish people have very high ratio of extroverted people, for whatever reason. They also have the high agreeableness (unlike e.g. France). This doesn't mean they are more sweet.

    Extroverts are often more cynical and manipulative, compared to introverts. You know the higher executives in companies, usually seem very extroverted - they live to talk to you, it's not necessarily because they care about you.

    And I would say this is also in the culture level - for example, in cultures like Ireland or Italy, people are default very friendly and charming, but it doesn't have the same implication as in the introvert society.

    In the wider culture level. This is one of the things about very introvert people like Russians. In the short term, it more unfriendly, but inside introvert nationalities like Russians are still often more friendly.


    -

    In the individual level, it's also sometimes like this.My former girlfriend who was introverted. In some ways, they were unusually cold. But in other ways, more kindly than normal people. It's like we all have limited quantity of energy. People who are very extroverted are spreading it to unfamiliar people, but it's not necessarily very deep.


    blond like Finns (not sure which British those are mostly, maybe Scots
     
    I think it's just the stereotypical for the Southern English people. Light hair is not uncommon there. And the dark hair people are maybe more common in the celtic origins Ireland or Wales? Although I can't say I really remember the differences visually, although I remember a lot of the difference culturally.

    Maybe it's more common with the Southern English.

    If you type the list of the best famous English schools in the ruling part of England, type on YouTube where the those elite places where child times of Boris Johnson, Prince William and Rishi Sunak were studying. People of the Southern England look quite light.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=frJa8BakD4M.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-P0WF5r4BcA.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nHh0X8P_36c.


    she fully Irish or half-Irish half Hispanic. In the US, Irish and Italian mixes are quite common for religious reasons. And speaking of black hair dye,

     

    From little I can understand of the other "cause célèbre" of the Baldwins, she is a white woman from Boston, that is saying and changing appearance to look Spanish.

    Alec Baldwin’s daughter with Kim Basinger, Ireland Baldwin? I think she’s naturally a dark blonde with light eyes. I absolutely love Kim Basinger, from what I gather she’s English, Irish, Swedish… she doesn’t strike me as typically British though
     
    It's possible Alec Baldwin is not very Irish. Maybe he is only Irish to the third generation. You know what the real Irish people say about Irish Americans? They often call them fakes.

    whites still have an advantage in the dating market. White women might still have an advantage at work

     

    I'm sure if you were good looking Latino or Italian (let's say, adjusted for wealth) you would be above white people on average in the dating market.

    Probably the maximum advantage in America's dating, would be a wealthy Mexican or Brazilian heir.


    Russia, that’s kind of endearing and understandable in a large country. I’ve noticed that many Russians try to pretend they have “Frenchness”
     
    Most everyone wants to feel special and not like the rest of the cattle. Lucky people can find an exotic ancestor and boast about it, or it becomes a new hobby for them.

    The most common is probably boasting about the Cossack or Jewish ancestors. "I'm not descended from the ordinary peasants". But also it's common with many other of the nationalities.

    The problem about boasting about Jewish ancestors, is the Jewish world is very organized, and if you call yourself Jewish too much, the real Jews will consider you fake unless you match their specific criteria rules and show the documents. It also depends on which side of the family etc. But if you find your Tatar or Bashkir etc, ancestor, you can do fully Elizabeth Warren and they aren't organized enough to call you fake.

    You can be blond, with Russian family name, and talk about your special Tatar or Kalmyk soul and (I don't have experience but I assume) nobody from their organizations will ask for documents.

    Replies: @Yevardian

  470. @Finn
    @Yahya

    Were not the Gaels settlers or Asia minor and Greece? Ala Galatians?

    Replies: @Yahya, @Yevardian

    The number of Celts/Gauls/Galatians that permanently settled in Anatolia was actually relatively small, despite their oversized impact.
    As for Greece, the main reason why the Celts decided to settle in Anatolia was because they were ultimately repulsed in Greece. Though the sources contradict each other on details, it appears quite clear the Celts were in large part brought over as mercenaries by both Greeks and local Anatolian kingdoms (chiefly Bithynia) themselves, with predictable results.
    On a related note its worth mentioning that the Turks first made permanent landfall in Europe for similar reasons, iirc they were ferried to Thrace as mercenaries during a late Byzantine Civil War between the useless but legitimate Ioannes Palaiologos V and the talented but entirely self-serving Ioannes Kantakouzenos.

    The permanent change of ethnic character in Phrygia to Galatia was able to take place largely because of the anarchic conditions prevailing in Anatolia following the death of Seleukos I and the subsequent revolts and seccessions that nearly overcame the empire he founded.

    This of course was only a part of the general wave of instability, demographic change and violence that swept the Near-East beginning with Alexander the Great’s conquests, continuing into the free-for-all power struggle after Alexander failed to name an heir, until 281 BC at the battle of Koropedion.

    What’s particularly interesting is how after the Persian Achaemenid Empire was destroyed, certain regions, which were especially dependent on import/export economies, collapsed economically and demographically. Central Anatolia and Northern Mesopotamia were particularly hard-hit during this transition, which led to Northern Syria and the Armenian Highlands to take their place as regional centres respectively.

    Anyway, last year I read a particularly good archaelogical paper on this subject, concerning Galatia/Phrygia in particular, noting evidence of widespread urban collapse, in which the Celts later filled the vacuum.

    https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/anatolian-studies/article/collapse-of-empire-at-gordion-in-the-transition-from-the-achaemenid-to-the-hellenistic-world/E25F3CD8106D22741C9C5809FE081BFD

    (use scihub)

    For later centuries, the best book I read on the later transition is Speros Vryonis’ “The Decline of Medieval Hellenism in Asia Minor’, the only full length book of its kind that I know of on this extremely important cultural transformation.

    tldr: I don’t care (at all) about these autistic haplogroup arguments.
    But genetically, I would imagine the real barrier between ‘Europe’ and ‘Asia’ is much more firmly delineated at the Tauros/Zagros mountains, not the Hellespont/Aegean, although the Turkish/Kurdish genocides of Anatolia’s Christian peoples probably changed this a fair bit.

  471. @Mr. Hack
    @Greasy William


    given that the US will be in a severe recession at the time
     
    Doesn't look like this is going to happen any time soon, the economy is continuing to hum along? And really, how many hard core Republican Maggots are firmly entrenched to carry through on such an action?

    https://images.seattletimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/Zelensky-Congress-ONLINE-COLOR.jpg?d=780x520

    Trump is not around anymore, and likely not to return - without Pence and the evangelical southern vote, Trump is toast.

    Replies: @LatW

    The danger is that they will use Ukraine in their pre-election fighting, the MAGA want blood. To show that the White House cannot run the assistance program properly and that it’s not audited properly, would really give them some material. Of course, it would be nasty to use Ukraine in such a way. Btw, did you hear that Marjorie Taylor Greene is going to try to be Trump’s VP pick?

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @LatW

    I don't know a whole lot about her, but she does look like a good, hardworking Republican. I still maintain that Trump will need to garner the support of Southern (and other regions too) Evangelicals in order to win. This important group did not come out and support Trump the second time out like they did the first time. This is one of the big reasons that he lost. By losing Pence, he's bound to lose even more of such voters. Perhaps kremlinstoogeA123 can replace Pence, being the stalwart "real" Christian soldier?

    https://mediacloud.theweek.com/image/private/s--V0LmljvJ--/f_auto,t_single-media-image-desktop@1/v1608504896/lk033018dAPR.jpg

    , @sudden death
    @LatW


    Marjorie Taylor Greene is going to try to be Trump’s VP pick
     
    That should be a free boon for Dems, even a marble statue of Lincoln would win against DTJ/MTG pairing, to say nothing of calcifying, but still moving Dark Brandon, lol

    In the most rabid trumper polls Pence still has stable roughly around 8% support, Cheney or Haley another roughly 2-3% separately each, that means at least 12% of all Republicans are constantly rejecting election fakery mantras or know why geopoliticaly US needs keep supporting UA. Also it would be probably not any exaggeration to say that at least half of those 12% of all Republicans will vote for Biden or just not vote for Trump, which is also enough for another presidential defeat in 2024.

    Replies: @Greasy William, @A123

  472. @Hapalong Cassidy
    @Yahya

    Yet oddly enough, the Turkish language is more closely related to Korean than it is to any other European or Middle-Eastern language.

    Replies: @Yevardian

    A Germanic tongue was also native to Saint George Floyd .

    Speaking of the European Turkic brotherhood:

    More importantly for you; the Greeks are closer to Turks than to the Irish. That’s why I will always get a chuckle when some goofball Irish-American retard takes pride in Alexander’s conquests as if his people had anything to with it.

    Has he actually though?

  473. @Sher Singh
    @Ivashka the fool

    Euros have been losing status since 9/11
    Losses in Afghanistan, BLM, Obama, India-China GDP rise

    Even Trump's idiocy destroys the ideal of White male leadership
    White liberals can't escape the destruction of whiteness they've orchestrated

    By whiteness I mean - Germano-Latin Chauvinism
    https://akarlin.com/struggle-europe-mankind/

    Sure, individually liberal signaling doesn't lower status but,
    The Taliban is making fun of the West on twitter while Trump's banned

    Kadyrov is winning accolades from Russians he ethnically cleansed in the 90s

    The wokes correctly describe reality more so than right-wing nationalists
    Doesn't mean you have to agree with their ideals

    2c

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rising_Tide_of_Color_Against_White_World-Supremacy

    Stoddard was an American Nordicist & already wrote about this in 1920s

    Replies: @Ivashka the fool, @Yevardian

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rising_Tide_of_Color_Against_White_World-Supremacy

    Stoddard was a great writer but imo it’s his least interesting book. But maybe I only feel that way because what he wrote about then is now so blindingly obvious.

    Everybody should check out his books on ‘Present Day Europe’, ‘Nazi Germany Today (Into the Darkness’ and ‘Racial Realities in Europe’. The last one revolves around the now extremely dated triad of Nordics/Alpines/Meds, but that’s exactly why it should be read as an antidote to people who obsessively focus on similar topics today, without necessarily understanding the science behind it. And of course its much more enjoyable prose to read than anime avatars on twitter posting contextless gene percentages.

    Still, I’m sure Sinkh implictly understands the end of White World Supremacy means making the world an objectively worse place for everyone, but I’m equally sure that ‘revenge’ (in reality I’m quite sure another Afghan/Iranian dynasty would have crushed the Marathas and Sikhs, as always happened) trumps prosperity for people like him.

    • Replies: @songbird
    @Yevardian


    Into the Darkness
     
    Read it. Absolutely hilarious, when he finds fault with the appearance of the two German border guards, going into Germany.
    , @Sher Singh
    @Yevardian


    Still, I’m sure Singh implictly understands the end of White World Supremacy means making the world an objectively worse place for everyone, but I’m equally sure that ‘revenge’ (in reality I’m quite sure another Afghan/Iranian dynasty would have crushed the Marathas and Sikhs, as always happened) trumps prosperity for people like him.
     
    White World Supremacy ended in the 1920s with the rise of post-modern liberalism.
    Ending liberalism is objectively good for the Feudal classes.

    Indian serfs were free'd in the 1950s CE & we don't intend to let that last a century.
    Nadir Shah & Ahmed Shah were both routed & in an Aryan world your sister would be with an Armenian.

    Modern white supremacy of the Thulean variety is Sailer's Graph & it is good to end it.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarbat_da_bhala

    A lot of this is trolling wignats into leaving liberalism instead of well I don't want minorities, but my wife/daughter having a body count is fine. The two are related,

    ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫਤਹਿ

  474. @Emil Nikola Richard
    @Beckow

    >> Britain and France were strengthened after their World War I victory.

    > Absolutely, they were strengthened – they dominated Europe as almost never before. France in particular was a big winner of WW1. Why would winning a war make you weaker? That is just stupid wishful throw-away nonsense.

    In the Yale U youtube History Europe class they had a guest lecture for the WWI mop up class. The guest lecturer claimed WWI was the end of British Empire. Their stupidity in this self destruction cost them all status with the Empire subjects.

    Before: all the wogs and negroes and whatnot were sold on the superiority of the white civilization.

    After: the attitude was these guys are idiots.

    Replies: @Yahya, @Beckow

    Before: all the wogs and negroes and whatnot were sold on the superiority of the white civilization.
    After: the attitude was these guys are idiots.

    I remember reading an article once describing how Chinese government officials used to revere the American financial system; trying to emulate it and other aspects of the US economy.

    Then the ‘08 crisis occurred; and they lost their myth-like reverence. One can see the effects on increased state control over the financial sector in China.

  475. @Mr. Hack
    @Dmitry


    Turkey is also famous for food, and food diversity (as center of the Ottoman empire), so this is perhaps more regional than ethnic (Turks vs Arabs).
     
    Have you, or for that matter anybody else that frequents this blogsite (Yahya?) read any of the Inspector Yashim novels? They look deliciously interesting, as does Jason Goodwin's (byzantologist turned successful novelist) sumptuous looking cookbook "Yashim Cooks Istanbul: Culinary Adventures in the Ottoman Kitchen", an illustrated cookbook selected as one of NPR’s Best Books of 2016 and shortlisted for the Guild of Food Writer’s First Book Award. I love eggplant dishes and would buy any of these books, but they're no longer at my neighborhood Barnes and Nobles bookstore.

    https://img.thriftbooks.com/api/images/i/m/447D9067B631FBB4500BB9E1DB656E4A2E9F6727.jpg

    Amazon to the rescue!

    Replies: @Yahya

    Have you, or for that matter anybody else that frequents this blogsite (Yahya?) read any of the Inspector Yashim novels?

    Never heard of them.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @Yahya

    Jason Goodwin is most known for these novels, even though he's written a history book and travelogue or two. You may read some descriptions of his novels by going to the fiction tab of his blogsite: http://jasongoodwin.info/blog/about-the-author/

    https://arthive.net/res/media/img/oy800/work/63e/30728.webp

  476. @Dmitry
    @Yahya


    can’t say being an Arab gives me special insight into food. I don’t even know how to cook eggs

     

    There is a very disappointing sentence, even I feel hurt by this betrayal of the Arabian tradition.

    I suppose I have some knowledge of Egyptian cuisine.
     
    Do they use mainly olive oil in Egypt. One of the unusual things I read recently, is that in many countries in North Africa where the olive oil industry is booming, they don't traditionally eat olive oil. For example, Morocco.

    There is one of the questions we discussed earlier. Is Egypt the Levant or North Africa? I was sure it is Levant, but you thought it was not Levant. If olive oil is traditional in Egypt, this could be evidence Egypt is Levant and vice-versa.


    Arabs were stereotyped as being knowledgeable about food in Europe
     
    If you look in bookshops in Europe, there are the most popular cooking books are often relating to Middle Eastern food.

    I've been in Israel, so obviously I know Arabs (whichever their religion) are experts about food. It's the national obsession of the Middle Eastern people. Turkey is also famous for food, and food diversity (as center of the Ottoman empire), so this is perhaps more regional than ethnic (Turks vs Arabs).

    My experiences in other Eastern Mediterranean Greece and Cyprus was not so special in terms of food though I still think Greeks have quite good food, not so distant from the Middle East.

    People are usually talented in different areas. The most nerdy engineer in the office, will probably not be promoted to management. But the best manager, will probably not be the most technically expert employee in the company.

    Perhaps nationalities can remind in this. Arabs are not good in politics/society organization, to say this mildly (some of the worst politics in the world), but the best countries for political organization (i.e. Switzerland, New Zealand, Great Britain, Norway), are not always the best in food.

    In the post-Ottoman society, lack of attainments in politics, have been surely compensated in some other areas. Cooking expertise seems one of the most obvious.

    The worse the politics, more dictators and secret police, perhaps implies people hide in the kitchen, developing perfect recipes for za'atar.

    I also think the traditional Arab kitchen, has healthy recipes, at least when they use traditional ingredients only. Lebanese cuisine looks like somekind of health shop.


    “Molokheya”. My guess is that many foreigners will find it too weird and exotic.

     

    I never saw this before, but it could be popular for foreigners. If you begin a restaurant in Greenwich village selling this, it will probably become a new fashion potential. This green color implies it is healthy. And it's not famous, so it would be the new cool food.


    Koshary

    There are other national dishes that are less luxurious and more “Staple Food” go poor Egyptians.
     

    I remember an Israeli YouTuber I subscribed to talking about this recently https://youtu.be/1SypPL_z444?t=213. although probably he doesn't know much what he is talking about, as he talks a bit like stereotypical tourist about Egypt. In New York, I think this could also become a fastfood, popular with celebrities. Imagine some chains of Koshary in Brooklyn.

    Replies: @Yahya, @Mr. Hack, @Yahya

    I never saw this before, but it could be popular for foreigners. If you begin a restaurant in Greenwich village selling this, it will probably become a new fashion potential. This green color implies it is healthy. And it’s not famous, so it would be the new cool food.

    Found this interesting BBC article on Molokheya: https://www.bbc.com/travel/article/20210802-a-superfood-fit-for-a-pharaoh.

    Apparently it has its origins in Ancient Egypt; there are depictions of the leaf in tomb paintings. Also was consumed by Caliphs during the medieval period. One ruler even outlawed the green stew because he thought it made women more sexually aroused.

    It has significant health benefits:

    For those who can stomach the slime, their gut and waistline will thank them later. “It (molokhia) has all kinds of good digestive virtues,” Berriedale-Johnson said. A recent study published in the Journal of Ethnopharmacology reveals that its leaves can even prevent gut inflammation and obesity.

    A superfood without the cult following or jacked-up prices, molokhia is packed with Vitamin C, E, potassium, iron and fibre. “It [molokhia] also contains certain antioxidant carotenoids and antioxidant elements, making a well-rounded and highly beneficial addition to your diet,” Cairo-based child nutritionist Mai Amer told me of the nutritional powerhouse.

    So your idea of turning into a bourgeoise “health” fad could work out. You can market it as “The Pharaoh’s Stew” instead of the bland name it has now. Just think of the possibilities!

  477. @Yevardian
    @Sher Singh


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rising_Tide_of_Color_Against_White_World-Supremacy
     
    Stoddard was a great writer but imo it's his least interesting book. But maybe I only feel that way because what he wrote about then is now so blindingly obvious.

    Everybody should check out his books on 'Present Day Europe', 'Nazi Germany Today (Into the Darkness' and 'Racial Realities in Europe'. The last one revolves around the now extremely dated triad of Nordics/Alpines/Meds, but that's exactly why it should be read as an antidote to people who obsessively focus on similar topics today, without necessarily understanding the science behind it. And of course its much more enjoyable prose to read than anime avatars on twitter posting contextless gene percentages.

    Still, I'm sure Sinkh implictly understands the end of White World Supremacy means making the world an objectively worse place for everyone, but I'm equally sure that 'revenge' (in reality I'm quite sure another Afghan/Iranian dynasty would have crushed the Marathas and Sikhs, as always happened) trumps prosperity for people like him.

    Replies: @songbird, @Sher Singh

    Into the Darkness

    Read it. Absolutely hilarious, when he finds fault with the appearance of the two German border guards, going into Germany.

  478. @216
    https://twitter.com/RWApodcast/status/1619038589479956480

    Your ancestors were not protecting you from NATO, NATO (The Western Right) in its 1980s glory was saving you from yourselves. The sole reason you exist in your current fashion is because my ancestors defeated communism, even though there were myriad groups in the West which wanted to go soft, just as they demand the same today with the CCP.

    This is why I say that some Lenin statues should be melted down and recast into statues of Ronald Reagan.

    Replies: @LatW

    My family – and that of millions of average Soviet citizens – embodies all that was great in the USSR and all the “conscious minorities” from the Transcaucasus to the Baltics embody all that was bad. Leninist scum that switched to GAE loyalism as soon as they could.

    If these “conscious minorities” were such “scum” then why did you bother invading them?

    30% of the Soviet space program was Ukrainian. 80% of the Soviet national basketball team was Baltic and Georgian. Ungrateful hypocrite.

    • Replies: @LatW
    @LatW


    Leninist scum
     
    Also, this myth that only minorities were Communist needs to die really soon. Our beloved Eastern Slavs, including above all Russians, have been very dedicated Lenin worshippers until even now - a genuine decommunization was never allowed to take place in RusFed and as we see with their flags and other regalia on the front lines in Ukraine (as well as their never ending pining after the Soviet years and "communal" this or that - while their oligarch's children are drinking expensive champagne in Dubai).

    If you're unable to build a genuine national socialist system that serves all classes within the nation and eliminates the parasites, then don't blame the mystical "others" from 30+ years ago for it.

  479. @LatW
    @216


    My family - and that of millions of average Soviet citizens - embodies all that was great in the USSR and all the "conscious minorities" from the Transcaucasus to the Baltics embody all that was bad. Leninist scum that switched to GAE loyalism as soon as they could.
     
    If these "conscious minorities" were such "scum" then why did you bother invading them?

    30% of the Soviet space program was Ukrainian. 80% of the Soviet national basketball team was Baltic and Georgian. Ungrateful hypocrite.

    Replies: @LatW

    Leninist scum

    Also, this myth that only minorities were Communist needs to die really soon. Our beloved Eastern Slavs, including above all Russians, have been very dedicated Lenin worshippers until even now – a genuine decommunization was never allowed to take place in RusFed and as we see with their flags and other regalia on the front lines in Ukraine (as well as their never ending pining after the Soviet years and “communal” this or that – while their oligarch’s children are drinking expensive champagne in Dubai).

    If you’re unable to build a genuine national socialist system that serves all classes within the nation and eliminates the parasites, then don’t blame the mystical “others” from 30+ years ago for it.

    • Agree: Mr. Hack
  480. @A123
    @Barbarossa


    I keep on wondering what is going on with immunity since Covid/ lockdowns. My own family and pretty much everyone else I know or talk to is sick far more often than pre-Covid.
     
    Two factors immediately spring to mind.

    -1- Backlog -- Things that would have been spread 12-24 months ago lingered in smaller more isolated groups. As normal interaction resumed, pockets of bugs that previously would have spread and burned out are becoming contagious in the larger pool. In a bizarre way, we were actually healthier to during the madness.

    Also, routine preventive care was diminished. There are more minor issues being identified that can be worked on.

    -2- Willingness to Report -- Five years ago minor ailments would not have sprung to mind as a topic of conversation. Now, it is much more likely to come up. Thus, the perceived count may be higher than the actual increase in events.
    ___

    As a pure blood, I have noticed no uptick in communicable disease.

    PEACE 😇

    Replies: @Barbarossa, @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms

    and

    Pure blood here as well. May have had a mild Omicron case. No other ailments to speak of.

    What do you guys think about the risk of shedding? Peter McCullough seems honed in on this idea, it seems a little too much, but…

    Thanks for everyone’s comments on this.

    • Replies: @A123
    @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms

    There have been multiple different theories floated about shedding.

    Vaccine shedding of spikes creating a communicable virus seems to be a non-starter. Without the working backbone of the virus, spikes cannot do that.

    Virus shedding is part of normal virus spread mechanics. There does not seem to be a "smoking gun" problem here either. However, the fact that some individuals can continue to shed for as much as 2 months after recovery is decidedly odd. This suggests that uncured virus is hiding out somewhere where normal immune system activity cannot readily reach. Odd nasal pockets perhaps?
    ___

    Instinctively, I suspect part of the problem is simultaneously having mRNA vaxx for one strain and a different variant of the live virus. This combination could cause poor immune response to both. Or, possibly runaway scenarios as natural function tries to prioritize one over the other.

    There is consensus that the most comprehensive and long lasting immunity is catching WUHAN-19 while vaxx free. However, that is problematic for those of advanced age with multiple preexisting conditions. Letting people choose if they want, or do not want, the experimental jab is really the only sound moral & scientific option.

    Those that refused the jab do seem healthier. However, there may be some self selection making that observation less than statistically meaningful.

    PEACE 😇

    Replies: @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms

  481. @Another Polish Perspective
    @Another Polish Perspective

    On its surface, the problem of multiple names for a single (godlike) being is so absurd that it can reasonably function only in a fantastic reality as that of LeGuin or of Tolkien (where, at least in his books, "The Enemy" is preferred to "Sauron" when talking, and Valars are rarely named by their own names but are often talked about in plurals, similarly to Biblical "elohim" standing often for God). In religious criticism of the Bible the problem has even led some to believe that the Serpent of Eden, Leviathan and Satan are actually three different beings, which in itself is a good example of a TOO close reading of the Bible.

    Replies: @Sher Singh

    Just accept all the names of God as true, and focus on correct action.

  482. @Ivashka the fool
    @Sher Singh

    You are making absurd claims about me. Despite your insults, I have stayed polite and civil as a grown up man should be. But you're simply not worthy of my time.

    Replies: @Sher Singh, @Mikel, @Yevardian

    I personally don’t see any absurd claims the Sikh made there. Funnily enough, I’d agree 100% with just about every single point he made there, I just come from the other side.

    You have a consistent religious belief system based on real traditions or you don’t.
    People who pick and choose a personalised mishmash of ‘spirituality’ aren’t much different from modern atheists, except they’re also superstitious to boot.

    I can have a coherent conversation a skeptical scientific rationalist or sincere practitioner in x-faith, but I personally can’t shrug feelings of contempt for the ‘I’m spiritual but not religious’ crowd.

    One does not engage in idol worship & claim to speak for the Abrahamics.

    LOL

    • Agree: Sher Singh, Barbarossa
    • Thanks: RSDB
  483. @Yahya
    @Dmitry


    There is a very disappointing sentence, even I feel hurt by this betrayal of the Arabian tradition.
     
    Lol, well if it helps, I did learn how to cook eggs among other things during my university days. Nothing special, just basic dishes like eggs with beef bacon, salmon fillet, and pasta etc. But almost always with an aid of videos or websites. I could perhaps re-learn to cook these items, but I’ve no need to cook in Egypt. There are servants here that do these things better, and ordering from restaurants is very affordable.

    In Boston I was compelled to cook after finding that 95% of restaurants were mediocre. The only nice restaurants were high-end ones like Maestro or Strip; but they cost an arm and a leg and of course were unsuitable for regular consumption.

    The whole culinary experience in Boston was very disappointing. Supposedly there are lots of Italian-Americans around in the area; but I didn’t eat a single good pizza during my time in the city. You can find better pizza in my little neighborhood in Cairo. The restaurants in Boston tend to be clean and well-designed; but otherwise the food is uninspiring.

    What I do miss about Boston is the chic coffee shops where you can have a bourgeois-style breakfast while reading a book and drinking artisan coffee. You can’t really do that in Egypt. One of my favorite breakfast places was this artisan Israeli-Jewish joint called Tatte (https://tattebakery.com). They served Arabic-style food which I appreciated, since it was hard to come by in Boston. The shawarma joints in Boston totally sucked; they couldn’t replicate the taste of authentic Middle Eastern food. The chicken in the US was uniformly atrocious; they just put in special chemicals that make it taste bland and inauthentic. The steak on the other hand was excellent.


    Do they use mainly olive oil in Egypt
     
    Yes, olive oil is used frequently with fava beans as a staple breakfast for Egyptians. Statistics all over the place, but Egypt ranks below Greece, Italy and Spain in olive oil consumption.

    There is one of the questions we discussed earlier. Is Egypt the Levant or North Africa? I was sure it is Levant, but you thought it was not Levant.
     
    Egypt is more Levantine than North African. But still, it is quite distinct from the Levant. If you are familiar with the nuances of the region, first key difference you’ll notice is the distinctive Egyptian dialect which is quite apart from Levantine Arabic; or any other Arabic dialect for that matter. Egypt is big enough population-wise to have its own culture separate from any Arab bloc. Egyptian phenotypes also tend to be darker and more Afro-looking than Levantines.

    I don’t fault you for thinking Egypt is part of the Levant. There’s been significant cultural and historical interaction between the two regions; going all the way back to the Bronze Age. In the 20th century many Levantines emigrated to Egypt and integrated fairly quickly into society; rising to become actors, singers, journalists etc. Amin Maalouf, a Lebanese Maronite who grew up in Egypt, mentions this in his book Adrift. Omar Sharif is commonly thought of as being Egyptian but is of Lebanese Greek Orthodox origin. The Syrian Druze duo Asmahan and Farid Al-Atrash were prominent singers in 20th century Egypt:

    https://youtu.be/p-oZAVAbi2M

    But still, when Egyptians refer to “the Levant” (bilad al-Sham) it’s always using “them” not “us”. The identity is separate.


    If you look in bookshops in Europe, there are the most popular cooking books are often relating to Middle Eastern food.
     
    Well I can imagine that Europeans would be allured by the exotic cuisine of the Near East. But this is not unique really to Middle Eastern food. When I visited the Louvre a month ago; about half of the exhibition items were Near Eastern: Persia, Egypt and Mesopotamia.

    For food; I guess they should look to Syria first, as they in my opinion have the best food in the region, closely followed by Turkey and Lebanon. Syrians also tend to pay more attention to aesthetics in food presentation; something Egyptians don’t do well in. This is a nice Syrian cookbook with a cool Arabic calligraphy on the cover:

    https://www.amazon.com/Scents-Flavors-Cookbook-Library-Literature/dp/1479856282

    Not surprised it would sell well.

    Replies: @Sher Singh, @Dmitry

  484. Sher Singh says:
    @Yevardian
    @Sher Singh


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rising_Tide_of_Color_Against_White_World-Supremacy
     
    Stoddard was a great writer but imo it's his least interesting book. But maybe I only feel that way because what he wrote about then is now so blindingly obvious.

    Everybody should check out his books on 'Present Day Europe', 'Nazi Germany Today (Into the Darkness' and 'Racial Realities in Europe'. The last one revolves around the now extremely dated triad of Nordics/Alpines/Meds, but that's exactly why it should be read as an antidote to people who obsessively focus on similar topics today, without necessarily understanding the science behind it. And of course its much more enjoyable prose to read than anime avatars on twitter posting contextless gene percentages.

    Still, I'm sure Sinkh implictly understands the end of White World Supremacy means making the world an objectively worse place for everyone, but I'm equally sure that 'revenge' (in reality I'm quite sure another Afghan/Iranian dynasty would have crushed the Marathas and Sikhs, as always happened) trumps prosperity for people like him.

    Replies: @songbird, @Sher Singh

    Still, I’m sure Singh implictly understands the end of White World Supremacy means making the world an objectively worse place for everyone, but I’m equally sure that ‘revenge’ (in reality I’m quite sure another Afghan/Iranian dynasty would have crushed the Marathas and Sikhs, as always happened) trumps prosperity for people like him.

    White World Supremacy ended in the 1920s with the rise of post-modern liberalism.
    Ending liberalism is objectively good for the Feudal classes.

    Indian serfs were free’d in the 1950s CE & we don’t intend to let that last a century.
    Nadir Shah & Ahmed Shah were both routed & in an Aryan world your sister would be with an Armenian.

    Modern white supremacy of the Thulean variety is Sailer’s Graph & it is good to end it.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarbat_da_bhala

    A lot of this is trolling wignats into leaving liberalism instead of well I don’t want minorities, but my wife/daughter having a body count is fine. The two are related,

    ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫਤਹਿ

  485. @Dmitry
    @AP


    Ukraine would most likely follow the Polish
     
    Poland is Central Europe and next to Germany. They have been merging to the German economy, which is the most powerful economy in Europe. For example, Volkswagen factories in Poland have more than $6 billion annual revenue.

    Ukraine is Eastern Europe and will be more generally periphery country of EU for those logistics reasons, which would be less centrally integrated to Germany's economy.

    EU also perhaps will have relatively less money for convergence in the next decades compared to 2000-2020 as the UK has exited, which was the second largest economy of the bloc.


    closest culturally, historically, educationally, geographically and genetically (the last is least important) to their Polish neighbors
     
    I agree the last (genetics) is not likely predictive.

    I'm not sure culture personality type is so predictive. But in terms of culture, Poles are different. Ukrainians are similar to Russians. But Poles have a very distinctive national personality, not similar to Russian. Some of their personality is more like stereotypical Germans - they have quite pedantic culture. I wonder if there is a general Central European trend for this?

    In terms of historically, Poland was not part of the Soviet Union or Russian Empire. Although again, I'm not sure this is predictive for the economic future. Estonia is former territory of the Russian Empire and USSR. But Estonia has been one of the more fast converging countries in the EU.


    closest culturally, historically, educationally, geographically and genetically (the last is least important) to their Polish
     
    Bulgaria is an ethnically Southern/Mediterranean country (Balkans). But you know what they say about Bulgaria in Soviet times ("Курица – не птица, Болгария – не заграница"). I'm not sure how true this is, but there is often similarity which is wider than the peoples' hair coloration.

    Although if Ukraine follows Romania attainments in the EU, this would be a very optimistic situation.

    Romania's attainments are the same as countries having the world's largest oil and gas exports and largest industries for diamonds, metals (Russia). Also the same as countries with the world's largest manufacturing (China).

    If Ukraine would go anywhere between Bulgaria and Romania, they will be a very significant optimistic reality.

    https://i.imgur.com/5Y9qJBr.jpg

    Replies: @Mikhail

    In terms of historically, Poland was not part of the Soviet Union or Russian Empire. Although again, I’m not sure this is predictive for the economic future. Estonia is former territory of the Russian Empire and USSR. But Estonia has been one of the more fast converging countries in the EU.

    Including Warsaw, much of Poland had been part of the Russian Empire for a lengthy period.

    • Replies: @LatW
    @Mikhail


    Including Warsaw, much of Poland had been part of the Russian Empire for a lengthy period.
     
    Do you understand what an Empire is? That it's not a sole ethnic entity? Do you understand that just because it is called "Russian" doesn't necessarily mean that Russians rule there, do you know that most Russians were peasants without rights during the time that Poland was part of the Empire and that most Russians were emancipated very late? Have you ever read the full title of Nikolai II?

    Do you realize it's been at least a 100 years since it ended?

    Do you realize that in Nikolai's title, even the core Russian lands are mentioned separately?

    Божиею поспешествующею милостию Николай Вторый, император и самодержец Всероссийский, Московский, Киевский, Владимирский, Новгородский; царь Казанский, царь Астраханский, царь Польский, царь Сибирский, царь Херсонеса Таврического, царь Грузинский; государь Псковский и великий князь Смоленский, Литовский, Волынский, Подольский и Финляндский; князь Эстляндский, Лифляндский, Курляндский и Семигальский, Самогитский, Белостокский, Корельский, Тверский, Югорский, Пермский, Вятский, Болгарский и иных; государь и великий князь Новагорода низовския земли, Черниговский, Рязанский, Полотский, Ростовский, Ярославский, Белозерский, Удорский, Обдорский, Кондийский, Витебский, Мстиславский и всея Северныя страны повелитель; и государь Иверския, Карталинския и Кабардинския земли и области Арменския; Черкасских и Горских князей и иных наследный государь и обладатель, государь Туркестанский; наследник Норвежский, герцог Шлезвиг-Голштейнский, Стормарнский, Дитмарсенский и Ольденбургский и прочая, и прочая, и прочая.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

  486. @Greasy William
    The RAND article along with comments Putin has made and Russia's failure to carry out additional rounds of mobilization would all seem to suggest that Russia is not seeking, and will not seek, any definitive military victory in Ukraine. Rather the plan appears to just be to continuously apply relatively low level pressure and just wait out the Western alliance. The West will never fully sell out Ukraine but they could force Ukraine to accept an armistice that the Ukrainians would otherwise not be receptive to.

    The first big test for the Western alliance likely comes this fall with the approaching debt ceiling crisis in the United States. A large number of House Republicans are going to be advocating for ending Ukrainian aid as a condition for raising the debt ceiling. Normally, that wouldn't be an issue because the overwhelming majority of Republican House members support arming Ukraine, but given that the US will be in a severe recession at the time and given that the Republican party is completely dysfunctional and it's leader (Trump) will be calling for an end to Ukrainian aid, this could get ugly.

    Now make no mistake: aid to Ukraine absolutely will not be cut. But the fact that the US is even discussing cutting off Ukraine and the overt dysfunction that is guaranteed to be displayed will shake the confidence of other NATO states and may even get some within Ukraine to wonder if they aren't better off making an agreement with Russia before their American patrons completely implode.

    Replies: @A123, @Mr. Hack, @Mikhail

  487. @Yahya
    @Mr. Hack


    Have you, or for that matter anybody else that frequents this blogsite (Yahya?) read any of the Inspector Yashim novels?
     
    Never heard of them.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    Jason Goodwin is most known for these novels, even though he’s written a history book and travelogue or two. You may read some descriptions of his novels by going to the fiction tab of his blogsite: http://jasongoodwin.info/blog/about-the-author/

  488. @LatW
    @Mr. Hack

    The danger is that they will use Ukraine in their pre-election fighting, the MAGA want blood. To show that the White House cannot run the assistance program properly and that it's not audited properly, would really give them some material. Of course, it would be nasty to use Ukraine in such a way. Btw, did you hear that Marjorie Taylor Greene is going to try to be Trump's VP pick?

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @sudden death

    I don’t know a whole lot about her, but she does look like a good, hardworking Republican. I still maintain that Trump will need to garner the support of Southern (and other regions too) Evangelicals in order to win. This important group did not come out and support Trump the second time out like they did the first time. This is one of the big reasons that he lost. By losing Pence, he’s bound to lose even more of such voters. Perhaps kremlinstoogeA123 can replace Pence, being the stalwart “real” Christian soldier?

  489. @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms
    @A123

    and @Barbarossa

    Pure blood here as well. May have had a mild Omicron case. No other ailments to speak of.

    What do you guys think about the risk of shedding? Peter McCullough seems honed in on this idea, it seems a little too much, but...

    Thanks for everyone's comments on this.

    Replies: @A123

    There have been multiple different theories floated about shedding.

    Vaccine shedding of spikes creating a communicable virus seems to be a non-starter. Without the working backbone of the virus, spikes cannot do that.

    Virus shedding is part of normal virus spread mechanics. There does not seem to be a “smoking gun” problem here either. However, the fact that some individuals can continue to shed for as much as 2 months after recovery is decidedly odd. This suggests that uncured virus is hiding out somewhere where normal immune system activity cannot readily reach. Odd nasal pockets perhaps?
    ___

    Instinctively, I suspect part of the problem is simultaneously having mRNA vaxx for one strain and a different variant of the live virus. This combination could cause poor immune response to both. Or, possibly runaway scenarios as natural function tries to prioritize one over the other.

    There is consensus that the most comprehensive and long lasting immunity is catching WUHAN-19 while vaxx free. However, that is problematic for those of advanced age with multiple preexisting conditions. Letting people choose if they want, or do not want, the experimental jab is really the only sound moral & scientific option.

    Those that refused the jab do seem healthier. However, there may be some self selection making that observation less than statistically meaningful.

    PEACE 😇

    • Agree: Barbarossa
    • Replies: @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms
    @A123

    Thanks.

    My concern is what's described in this article, seems that its still inconclusive,

    https://petermcculloughmd.substack.com/p/health-of-pure-bloods-threatened


    Fertig et al, have shown mRNA is circulatory in blood for at least two weeks with no reduction in concentration out to that time point.[iv] Likewise, Hanna et al, have found mRNA within breast milk.[v] Less data exist on Spike protein shedding but it is not a far stretch to understand this is well within the realm of reality. The pivotal questions are: 1) for how long is a recently vaccinated person at risk to shed on to others? 2) can shed mRNA be taken up by the recipient and begin to produce Spike protein just like vaccination? 3) can shed Spike protein cause disease as it does in the vaccinated (e.g. myocarditis, blood clots, etc.)?
     

    Replies: @A123

  490. @AP
    @Beckow


    Britain and France were strengthened after their World War I victory.

    Absolutely, they were strengthened – they dominated Europe as almost never before
     

    Not, they were terminally weakened and swept away in the next war, despite victory and territorial acquisition as a result of the victory in the First World War. Your low educational level is on display again.

    The big winner was the USA, which mostly stayed out but supplied the allies throughout the war.

    Seem familiar?


    Pyrrhic victory

    You are stuck on this rather infantile concept that has no similarity to today’s situation. Pyrrha invaded Italy and won 1-2 battles
     

    Now you are thinking like an Autist, I remember you were triggered when I had used that term earlier, so I deliberately used it again.

    The term in the English language simply means “won at too great a cost to have been worthwhile for the victor.”

    No analogy to the specific victory by Pyrrhus’s military was implied in the use of that common phrase.

    This is how normal people use that phrase. It is our former host’s prediction as the most likely outcome.


    Instead you sound like a moron. Putin=Pyrrha, right, how incredibly stupid can you be.

     

    It is funny to witness the wound-be lackey seethe when things don’t go well for his desired master. Don’t worry, you’ll find someone else to serve.

    The icing on the cake is that in your historical illiteracy you didn’t even know that the Greek king was called Pyrrhus. Who is Pyrrha?

    Replies: @Wokechoke, @Mr. Hack, @Beckow

    The icing on the cake is that in your historical illiteracy you didn’t even know that the Greek king was called Pyrrhus. Who is Pyrrha?


    Oops!! Looks like the icing on that cake backfired to the author of the faulty recipe. 🙂

  491. @Mikhail
    @Dmitry


    In terms of historically, Poland was not part of the Soviet Union or Russian Empire. Although again, I’m not sure this is predictive for the economic future. Estonia is former territory of the Russian Empire and USSR. But Estonia has been one of the more fast converging countries in the EU.
     
    Including Warsaw, much of Poland had been part of the Russian Empire for a lengthy period.

    Replies: @LatW

    Including Warsaw, much of Poland had been part of the Russian Empire for a lengthy period.

    Do you understand what an Empire is? That it’s not a sole ethnic entity? Do you understand that just because it is called “Russian” doesn’t necessarily mean that Russians rule there, do you know that most Russians were peasants without rights during the time that Poland was part of the Empire and that most Russians were emancipated very late? Have you ever read the full title of Nikolai II?

    Do you realize it’s been at least a 100 years since it ended?

    Do you realize that in Nikolai’s title, even the core Russian lands are mentioned separately?

    Божиею поспешествующею милостию Николай Вторый, император и самодержец Всероссийский, Московский, Киевский, Владимирский, Новгородский; царь Казанский, царь Астраханский, царь Польский, царь Сибирский, царь Херсонеса Таврического, царь Грузинский; государь Псковский и великий князь Смоленский, Литовский, Волынский, Подольский и Финляндский; князь Эстляндский, Лифляндский, Курляндский и Семигальский, Самогитский, Белостокский, Корельский, Тверский, Югорский, Пермский, Вятский, Болгарский и иных; государь и великий князь Новагорода низовския земли, Черниговский, Рязанский, Полотский, Ростовский, Ярославский, Белозерский, Удорский, Обдорский, Кондийский, Витебский, Мстиславский и всея Северныя страны повелитель; и государь Иверския, Карталинския и Кабардинския земли и области Арменския; Черкасских и Горских князей и иных наследный государь и обладатель, государь Туркестанский; наследник Норвежский, герцог Шлезвиг-Голштейнский, Стормарнский, Дитмарсенский и Ольденбургский и прочая, и прочая, и прочая.

    • Troll: Mikhail
    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @LatW

    The self proclaimed "Russian and Foreign Policy Analyst" Mike Averko lives in a strange world of his own imagination that he's meticulously crafted for a very long time. Unfortunately, you're wasting your time providing him any quotes in Russian, for by even his own account he only understands a modicum of Russian. It never occurred to him that in his fairy tale existence of being some sort of a "Russian Specialist", knowing the language thoroughly would be a primary requirement.

    Here's a cute little picture of Mickey, apparently visiting folks totally unannounced taken from a piece written by his arch nemesis of a few years back:

    https://i0.wp.com/photos1.blogger.com/blogger/6013/2632/320/Huckster.jpg
    "Does it make you a “foreign policy analyst” because you have letters to the editor published?"

    Great question. La Russophobe, where are you today when we need you the most?
    https://larussophobe.wordpress.com/2006/05/19/mike-averko-a-legend-in-his-own-neo-soviet-mind/

    Replies: @Mikhail

  492. наследник Норвежский

    The heir of Norway. This is quite amusing. Supposedly, he got it from Denmark in 1814.

    • Replies: @Beckow
    @LatW

    Almost as amusing as the Norwegian shows about the coming "Russian invasion!". The semi-retarded Scandies take it seriously...watch out for that Tsar Nikolai.

    The biking-Fraulein has declared a war on Russia, possibly ancestral memories or she is very stupid. It looks like the show will have a few more acts and it will not be one-sided. When the enemy is in sight so are you, and also the bystanders.

    The bloodiest fights are often within a family. It is comforting that as they hit the black earth the enthusiasts-for-Nato (or against it) understand each other. It is 50-50 that the Poles will join in, too much fun to miss and there is enough black earth for everyone.

  493. @Greasy William
    Okay, first of all, the Abrams/Leopards, ATACAMS, F-16s, Patriots, etc.: it does not appear that Russia is very concerned and I agree that these systems, if they even arrive, will make only a marginal difference in the fighting. Wonder weapons don't win wars if they aren't in sufficient quantities and aren't backed with logistics and training. The US has a mammoth economic and industrial advantage over the RF, but it so far has been unable to apply it fully to the Ukrainian battlefield and it does not appear that is going to change anytime soon. I do not believe that the new weapons going to Ukraine are meant to turn the tide of the battle. Rather I think the West is responding to the internal pressure of their shitlib base who beleive that Ukraine will defeat Russia if only they are given the right systems.

    While the attack on Bakhmut continues, there is also a large Russian assault on Ugledar. It appears that Russia is launching a comprehensive operation aimed at conquering the entire Donbas. I personally do not think this operation will be successful because I don't think that Russia has sufficient forces in theatre. I believe that Bakhmut and Ugledar will both fall sometime in 2023, but I don't expect anything beyond that.

    Replies: @LondonBob

    Scott Ritter making the point that all the equipment being sent is a lot less than requested, although Jacob Dreizin says the real amount sent so far is a lot more than has been announced and is often already there.

    Still think that false flag missile attack on Poland was the turning point, had they wanted to escalate, they would have then.

    • Replies: @Mikhail
    @LondonBob

    Ritter at his best in this most recent video, where among other things, he discusses slapping the US:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=loWcq7LrCPk

  494. @AnonfromTN
    @LondonBob

    I am not privy to Putin’ plans, but I feel (like most people in Russia) that it is too late in the game for anything short of unconditional capitulation of the US puppets. I don’t think the empire is ready for that just yet.

    Replies: @LondonBob

    Unless the Ukrainian Army collapses then capturing major cities like Kharkov, Kherson, Odessa, Nikolaev, Zapo would be very costly, time consuming and bloody.

    • Replies: @AnonfromTN
    @LondonBob

    My prediction is that not just the army, the whole puppet regime will collapse within a year. We’ll see soon enough.

  495. @LatW

    наследник Норвежский
     
    The heir of Norway. This is quite amusing. Supposedly, he got it from Denmark in 1814.

    Replies: @Beckow

    Almost as amusing as the Norwegian shows about the coming “Russian invasion!“. The semi-retarded Scandies take it seriously…watch out for that Tsar Nikolai.

    The biking-Fraulein has declared a war on Russia, possibly ancestral memories or she is very stupid. It looks like the show will have a few more acts and it will not be one-sided. When the enemy is in sight so are you, and also the bystanders.

    The bloodiest fights are often within a family. It is comforting that as they hit the black earth the enthusiasts-for-Nato (or against it) understand each other. It is 50-50 that the Poles will join in, too much fun to miss and there is enough black earth for everyone.

  496. @Emil Nikola Richard
    @Beckow

    >> Britain and France were strengthened after their World War I victory.

    > Absolutely, they were strengthened – they dominated Europe as almost never before. France in particular was a big winner of WW1. Why would winning a war make you weaker? That is just stupid wishful throw-away nonsense.

    In the Yale U youtube History Europe class they had a guest lecture for the WWI mop up class. The guest lecturer claimed WWI was the end of British Empire. Their stupidity in this self destruction cost them all status with the Empire subjects.

    Before: all the wogs and negroes and whatnot were sold on the superiority of the white civilization.

    After: the attitude was these guys are idiots.

    Replies: @Yahya, @Beckow

    They teach a lot of nonsense at Yale. British Empire (and the French) lasted 20-30 or more years after WW1. They were both strengthened and enlarged after WW1, they dominated Europe – no more German-Habsburg competition. The argument that they were facing the end is ahistorical – a projection based in what happened later, mostly in WW2 and after. (WW2 was won by Russia and US, a different situation).

    Before:…superiority of the white civilization.
    After: the attitude was these guys are idiots.

    That was a lengthy historical process. Something similar is happening to US reputation. But it wasn’t like the negroes and Indians woke up in 1918 and started to despise Europeans. Nothing that happened in 20’s-30’s suggests that – actually the enormous destruction and weapons of WW1 were probably quite intimidating.

    My point holds: winning a war strengthens a country. Washington has not thought this through: you never start a war where the enemy has a lot better chance to eventually win. But they have been doing it for decades, loss after loss: Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria. That is just stupidity. The odds are that Ukraine will be added to the list.

    • Replies: @Coconuts
    @Beckow


    The argument that they were facing the end is ahistorical – a projection based in what happened later, mostly in WW2 and after.
     
    There were French people arguing that French power was broken by the early 20s, more were arguing for the possibility by the 30s. It was part of the discussion around the response to German rearmament.

    You are right though that people couldn't be sure who was right until later, these pessimists or the more optimistic.

    Replies: @Wokechoke, @Beckow

    , @Wokechoke
    @Beckow

    As long as the Americans speak English and have names like Smith or Johnson I don't think there's much opposition to Americans taking the strain. It gives chancers like Boris the opportunity to do the swashbuckling piracy again. it was a win win.

    , @AP
    @Beckow


    They teach a lot of nonsense at Yale. British Empire (and the French) lasted 20-30 or more years after WW1.
     
    They lasted a whole 20-30 years after the victory that you claimed strengthened those empires.

    They were both strengthened and enlarged after WW1
     
    They were enlarged but fatally weakened, this was demonstrated by the collapse only 20-30 years after the first world war. Gaining Alsace-Lorraine was not enough to compensate for the self-destructive nature of the Pyrrhic victory.

    Ironically, Germany that lost the first world war was less weakened than France and the UK, who won it. Such was the nature of the Pyrrhic victory for the western allies.

    But they have been doing it for decades, loss after loss: Vietnam,
     
    So in your world the USA was weaker in the 1980s, after the loss in Vietnam?
  497. @AP
    @Beckow


    Britain and France were strengthened after their World War I victory.

    Absolutely, they were strengthened – they dominated Europe as almost never before
     

    Not, they were terminally weakened and swept away in the next war, despite victory and territorial acquisition as a result of the victory in the First World War. Your low educational level is on display again.

    The big winner was the USA, which mostly stayed out but supplied the allies throughout the war.

    Seem familiar?


    Pyrrhic victory

    You are stuck on this rather infantile concept that has no similarity to today’s situation. Pyrrha invaded Italy and won 1-2 battles
     

    Now you are thinking like an Autist, I remember you were triggered when I had used that term earlier, so I deliberately used it again.

    The term in the English language simply means “won at too great a cost to have been worthwhile for the victor.”

    No analogy to the specific victory by Pyrrhus’s military was implied in the use of that common phrase.

    This is how normal people use that phrase. It is our former host’s prediction as the most likely outcome.


    Instead you sound like a moron. Putin=Pyrrha, right, how incredibly stupid can you be.

     

    It is funny to witness the wound-be lackey seethe when things don’t go well for his desired master. Don’t worry, you’ll find someone else to serve.

    The icing on the cake is that in your historical illiteracy you didn’t even know that the Greek king was called Pyrrhus. Who is Pyrrha?

    Replies: @Wokechoke, @Mr. Hack, @Beckow

    Got off your high horse and address what I actually said about “Pyrrhic victory” – there is no analogy because the logistics simply doesn’t fit.

    If you use the phrase as “won at too great a cost to have been worthwhile for the victor.” you must establish who would decide the value of that cost. If Russia thinks that keeping Nato out and protecting the Ukie Russians is worth the cost, why would you try to second-guess them? So far the costs for Russia have been quite minimal. The constant predictions of collapse have not materialized. The costs to Ukraine have been enormous: in lives, property, future prospects…

    If Russia prevails – keeps Donbas, Azov See… and keeps Nato out – they will be better off and Kiev will be worse off. So will Washington and London. It is actually quite simple, you hide behind Greek grammar rules to avoid seeing the obvious.

    And no, it is definitely not worth dying for. You can have you fake heroism, although I noticed that you yourself are not out there fighting. You are a hypocrite.

    • Replies: @Greasy William
    @Beckow

    One thing we know for certain about the West is that they will not pay for Ukraine's reconstruction. There is only one country that would be willing to help rebuild Ukraine post war and that's Russia.

    Replies: @Wokechoke

    , @AP
    @Beckow


    If you use the phrase as “won at too great a cost to have been worthwhile for the victor.” you must establish who would decide the value of that cost.
     
    That is irrelevant because it is subject to personal delusions or wishful thinking. Such as yours.

    If Russia thinks that keeping Nato out and protecting the Ukie Russians is worth the cost, why would you try to second-guess them?
     
    Well, some French may have thought that "liberating" Alsace-Lorraine and avenging the loss at Sedan was worth the cost. But objectively, their victory in the first world war fatally weakened them, and France's hundreds-year old status as a great power was swept away a mere two decades after that victory.

    If Russia prevails – keeps Donbas, Azov See… and keeps Nato out – they will be better off and Kiev will be worse off.
     
    As I wrote before, Russia will have gained some valuable agricultural land, but will have lost tens of thousands of trained soldiers, thousands of tanks, many dozens of military planes, the flagship of their Black Sea Fleet, hundred thousand + educated people, much of their foreign currency reserves, an economy set back 10+ years, etc. As our former host described it - a Pyrrhic victory.

    And no, it is definitely not worth dying for.
     
    For a natural lackey such as yourself, it is not worth fighting for your independence as brave Poles and Ukrainians do and have done. Better to collaborate, right?

    You can have you fake heroism, although I noticed that you yourself are not out there fighting. You are a hypocrite.
     
    The heroism of the people in Ukraine is not fake. I never claimed any heroism for myself personally in this war. Before it started, I didn't even urge Ukrainians to fight, though I correctly predicted they would because I know they are not like your people. I am not there, I don't have the right to decide for them. But I support them after the decision they have made.

    And of course, neither are the pro-Russian Putin fanboys such as yourself or people like Anonin TN or Mikhail fighting there, despite cheering for Russia.

    :::::::::::::::

    BTW, now that Putin's star has been tarnished, whose lackey will you be next? The leader whose views most closely align with yours is Orban. Perhaps its time for you to turn away from the pretense and deflection, and to openly assume your traditional position as the Magyar's servant? Come home, Beckow.

    Replies: @Beckow

  498. @Beckow
    @AP

    Got off your high horse and address what I actually said about "Pyrrhic victory" - there is no analogy because the logistics simply doesn't fit.

    If you use the phrase as "won at too great a cost to have been worthwhile for the victor.” you must establish who would decide the value of that cost. If Russia thinks that keeping Nato out and protecting the Ukie Russians is worth the cost, why would you try to second-guess them? So far the costs for Russia have been quite minimal. The constant predictions of collapse have not materialized. The costs to Ukraine have been enormous: in lives, property, future prospects...

    If Russia prevails - keeps Donbas, Azov See... and keeps Nato out - they will be better off and Kiev will be worse off. So will Washington and London. It is actually quite simple, you hide behind Greek grammar rules to avoid seeing the obvious.

    And no, it is definitely not worth dying for. You can have you fake heroism, although I noticed that you yourself are not out there fighting. You are a hypocrite.

    Replies: @Greasy William, @AP

    One thing we know for certain about the West is that they will not pay for Ukraine’s reconstruction. There is only one country that would be willing to help rebuild Ukraine post war and that’s Russia.

    • Replies: @Wokechoke
    @Greasy William

    Funnily enough, one way or another it will be Russian resources that rebuild the dump.

    Replies: @AnonfromTN

  499. @Dmitry
    @AP


    people at the bottom tend to engage in worse behaviors than those who are better off. Unlike in the case of Jesus’ time, prosperous people in the Christendom did not come by their wealth through conquest and enslavement, or through taxing widows and poor people. They are not likely to be wicked
     
    This is your point of view and you don't have to justify it by giving the complicated historical maneuver to give it wrong label. It's possibly true, possibly false, like any view, depending on evidence.

    But it is the opposite of the Catholic church and also opposite of what Church fathers are writing. In their view, we don't live in the time after the Second Coming. And in their teaching, pride is the first of capital sins.

    https://i.imgur.com/HZXS6hP.jpg

    https://i.imgur.com/boxeX2o.jpg

    And in their view, "failing to meet the needs" of the poor and weak is second reason for going to hell, after hate and murder.

    https://i.imgur.com/vKGcJ76.jpg


    many healthy normal children too; he is not AFAIK a Christian, so it would make no sense to appeal to the Christian idea that all people have inherent value regardless of disability. But both are true

     

    I don't understand this. Really, any normal people don't think like this, as they have morality and concepts like compassion, as the mainstream in our culture. Trying to justify in this way, looks like a discussion of psychopaths without internal morality - "Don't kill the children, because I found some justifications that they will be helpful for our political side".

    In your posts, you writer morality from a view as reducible to social utility. To be honest, this is one of the distinguishable features where you know "this is a post by AP", when you see writing about morality as something "useful".

    However, this is not real morality, that has to be based from internal compassion or duty.

    For example, you write "fear an inevitability or high likelihood of eternal Hell, atheism would conveniently calm such a fear". (Actually, atheism correlates with lower crimes, but this is not for this discussion).

    So, you believe it is good to promote the hypothetical punishment and reward of religion, so this will be able to reduce crime and socially useful behavior.

    If you control an intelligent rat in the Skinner box that understands language. Instead of using electric shock to control its behavior, you talk to the rat about the hypothetical electric shock it will have when it exits the box. So, you believe the rat will behave in the way which you desire, because it now believes there will be an electric shock when it exits the box (i.e. after life).

    This is not morality, it is the rat's selfish behavior based on hypothetical view of punishment and reward in the after life, as a rat in any box.

    But morality is the idea that you do the right things, because it is the right things, not because of consequences (electric shocks, whether in this life, or after life). If it was based in consequences (i.e. to go to heaven), then it would just be another kind of selfish behavior. This view was true also in Ancient Greece and earlier times.

    Morality is unselfish behavior. A true moral behavior, is when they do the moral behavior, even though it has negative consequences for the person (whether in this life or even in hypothetical after life).


    -

    Although there is a problem in all religions where they sometimes promote their morality, by giving the theory of the electric shock in this life or after life. This is kind of selfish behavior, even if the positive consequence will be in after life.

    Morality is based from not selfish beliefs ("what will happen to me in this life or after life"), but from the internal compassion, duty, etc.

    In the Christian writing there is some understanding of this problem, in the discussion of spirit of the law vs following the law. Jesus says the right hand can't know what the left hand is doing, when you give to the poor. Jesus says that looking at a woman with lust, is adultery (unlike, in the less strict Judaism, adultery is only an act, not the thought).

    Replies: @Coconuts, @AP

    Really, any normal people don’t think like this, as they have morality and concepts like compassion, as the mainstream in our culture.

    Is this partly about which understanding of morality a person adopts? They used to teach us that there were three major approaches to understanding morality:

    Utilitarian/Consequentialist, ‘greatest good morality’. This one has been pretty popular and prominent in the Anglo sphere over the years, maybe it is less so now.

    Deontological, famous Kantian morality. Also very influential but I always thought it was less popular than the consequentialist one in Anglo countries. On the continent it was more dominant.

    Virtue Ethics. This used to seem like the novel up and coming option. Though it was really like an old option returning.

    Although there is a problem in all religions where they sometimes promote their morality, by giving the theory of the electric shock in this life or after life.

    The basis of this may be in theistic virtue ethics traditions, because there God can be understood to be the fount and fulfilment of all virtue, so when God chooses to grant heaven (closeness to or union with God) that is goodness or morality itself. But from a deontological point of view this could be a moral hazard.

    A true moral behavior, is when they do the moral behavior, even though it has negative consequences for the person

    I remember a sort of crude counter-argument to deontological morality, that it can make morality like self-harm on behalf of an abstraction. This is likely to be a strawman but iirc the challenges to the deontological option develop along these lines.

    Also I was taught these things some time ago and now those discussions might be considered bourgeois/patriarchal/white supremacist, as a new ‘revolutionary’ approach to morality seems to have appeared. Here discussion of morality can’t be separated from politics, and oppressed groups have special and unique insight into morality/politics due to their experience. They can use this experience to transform society for the better through revolt against oppression and gaining power. What they are going to do and how they are going to achieve this improvement can’t really be codified or explained to those not part of the oppressed group, especially not to oppressors in current social contexts.

    There is a right-wing counter view to this, that questions of morality and justice can’t be disassociated from the question of force and power, because this is what makes them meaningful or real. Here, to be moral or just a person or group must first be powerful and capable enough to understand and carry out what needs to be done. Morality therefore flows from ‘the generosity of power’.

    I’ve been wondering if these are more like moral options from my grandparents generation that have somehow made a comeback.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @Coconuts


    approaches to understanding morality
     
    You can see they are based from the same concept of objectivity.

    God chooses to grant heaven (closeness to or union with God) that is goodness
     
    Promises of heaven/hell, when they are used in the non-mystical religious context, become a control system (i.e. dog training). It is becoming not morality, but delayed version https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operant_conditioning_chamber which is based in selfish behavior.

    You can say to suicide bombers they don't need to marry in the real world, as there are many virgins in the next world for them, if they follow the religious jihad. This is giving delayed food to the rat. Or you can say they go to hell if they don't, there is the electric shock against the rate.

    The suicide bomber is not behaving selfless, if they believe this reward/punishment exists, but just a kind of delayed selfish behavior to attain the reward.

    But the religious tradition understands this problem and there is morality they need to explain. This is in some of the most famous religious texts, including Iron Age writing.

    For example, Book of Job, Satan is allowed to punish Job, kill his children. The punishment is not because Job is bad.

    They do punishment to Job, because he seems good. Therefore they need to test him, to see if his soul is good.

    His exterior behavior is not adequate information God. It's not his exterior behavior which is important for God, the internal quality. Although they restore his property at the end.

    By the way, this is also the common topic of the Greek tragedy and forward to a lot of the Renaissance literature like Shakespeare.

    Catholic church also says in their official views, the determination of heaven and hell, is in final, if the person has love or hate in their soul. They don't emphasize controlling of behavior.

    oppressed groups have special and unique insight into morality/politics due to their experience. They can use this experience to transform society for the better through revolt against oppression and gaining power moral or just a person or group must first be powerful and capable enough to understand and carry out what needs to be done. Morality therefore flows from ‘the generosity of power’

     

    It seems to be Nietzsche's theory of Christianity in "Anti-Christ" - "slave morality".

    Replies: @RSDB

  500. @Beckow
    @Emil Nikola Richard

    They teach a lot of nonsense at Yale. British Empire (and the French) lasted 20-30 or more years after WW1. They were both strengthened and enlarged after WW1, they dominated Europe - no more German-Habsburg competition. The argument that they were facing the end is ahistorical - a projection based in what happened later, mostly in WW2 and after. (WW2 was won by Russia and US, a different situation).


    Before:...superiority of the white civilization.
    After: the attitude was these guys are idiots.
     
    That was a lengthy historical process. Something similar is happening to US reputation. But it wasn't like the negroes and Indians woke up in 1918 and started to despise Europeans. Nothing that happened in 20's-30's suggests that - actually the enormous destruction and weapons of WW1 were probably quite intimidating.

    My point holds: winning a war strengthens a country. Washington has not thought this through: you never start a war where the enemy has a lot better chance to eventually win. But they have been doing it for decades, loss after loss: Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria. That is just stupidity. The odds are that Ukraine will be added to the list.

    Replies: @Coconuts, @Wokechoke, @AP

    The argument that they were facing the end is ahistorical – a projection based in what happened later, mostly in WW2 and after.

    There were French people arguing that French power was broken by the early 20s, more were arguing for the possibility by the 30s. It was part of the discussion around the response to German rearmament.

    You are right though that people couldn’t be sure who was right until later, these pessimists or the more optimistic.

    • Replies: @Wokechoke
    @Coconuts

    The French embraced the German invasion the second time round in 1940.

    , @Beckow
    @Coconuts


    ...There were French people arguing that French power was broken by the early 20s
     
    There always are people like that. There were probably Romans who thought Caesar broke the Roman power in Gaul. But the reality is that the French won WW1 (decisively) and were lording over most of Europe with Germany in tatters and smaller countries deferring to Paris. It never gets better than that, the nay-sayers are counter-intuitive.

    In the Russia-Ukraine war (the West included in Ukraine) there will be an eventual winner. And it won't be that long, this year or possibly next. Russia has an upper hand and unless they collapse internally they will win. Big or small, costly or not, Russia will win with 80% probability. (10% is Russia's collapse and 10% for 'let's go nuclear').

    Then what? A destroyed Ukraine and a humiliated West will seethe with anger and plan revenge. There will be massive polarization with no contacts, Cold war with a wall, maybe border skirmishes. Everyone will be worse off for years, Ukies most of all.

    An alternative was to accept the basic rights for Russians living in Ukraine (autonomy, schools...) and give up on the mad plan to stick Nato in Ukieland - Kiev and Washington chose not to take it. They will certainly regret it more than the Russians will. In the meantime thousands are dying because of this catastrophic miscalculations. (And yes, Merkel and Macron should be charged with triggering this war. After all the proudly confessed.)

    Replies: @Greasy William

  501. @Wokechoke
    @Dmitry

    Jet black hair, blue eyes and pale skin is a British Isles trait. They also pop out blonde children!

    Replies: @S

    Jet black hair, blue eyes and pale skin is a British Isles trait.

    Virginia Maskell (below) comes to mind, though I’m not sure about the blue eyes. And then there’s Elizabeth Taylor, though of American parentage

  502. @Coconuts
    @Beckow


    The argument that they were facing the end is ahistorical – a projection based in what happened later, mostly in WW2 and after.
     
    There were French people arguing that French power was broken by the early 20s, more were arguing for the possibility by the 30s. It was part of the discussion around the response to German rearmament.

    You are right though that people couldn't be sure who was right until later, these pessimists or the more optimistic.

    Replies: @Wokechoke, @Beckow

    The French embraced the German invasion the second time round in 1940.

  503. @Greasy William
    @Beckow

    One thing we know for certain about the West is that they will not pay for Ukraine's reconstruction. There is only one country that would be willing to help rebuild Ukraine post war and that's Russia.

    Replies: @Wokechoke

    Funnily enough, one way or another it will be Russian resources that rebuild the dump.

    • Replies: @AnonfromTN
    @Wokechoke

    That was my thinking a few months ago. Now I think that only Russian parts of late unlamented Ukraine will rebuilt, with the most Nazified parts deliberately left as a dump.

    Replies: @A123, @216, @Jazman

  504. @Coconuts
    @Beckow


    The argument that they were facing the end is ahistorical – a projection based in what happened later, mostly in WW2 and after.
     
    There were French people arguing that French power was broken by the early 20s, more were arguing for the possibility by the 30s. It was part of the discussion around the response to German rearmament.

    You are right though that people couldn't be sure who was right until later, these pessimists or the more optimistic.

    Replies: @Wokechoke, @Beckow

    …There were French people arguing that French power was broken by the early 20s

    There always are people like that. There were probably Romans who thought Caesar broke the Roman power in Gaul. But the reality is that the French won WW1 (decisively) and were lording over most of Europe with Germany in tatters and smaller countries deferring to Paris. It never gets better than that, the nay-sayers are counter-intuitive.

    In the Russia-Ukraine war (the West included in Ukraine) there will be an eventual winner. And it won’t be that long, this year or possibly next. Russia has an upper hand and unless they collapse internally they will win. Big or small, costly or not, Russia will win with 80% probability. (10% is Russia’s collapse and 10% for ‘let’s go nuclear’).

    Then what? A destroyed Ukraine and a humiliated West will seethe with anger and plan revenge. There will be massive polarization with no contacts, Cold war with a wall, maybe border skirmishes. Everyone will be worse off for years, Ukies most of all.

    An alternative was to accept the basic rights for Russians living in Ukraine (autonomy, schools…) and give up on the mad plan to stick Nato in Ukieland – Kiev and Washington chose not to take it. They will certainly regret it more than the Russians will. In the meantime thousands are dying because of this catastrophic miscalculations. (And yes, Merkel and Macron should be charged with triggering this war. After all the proudly confessed.)

    • Replies: @Greasy William
    @Beckow

    I would say that the 1973 Arab Israeli war dramatically decreased Israeli power, even though Israel won the war on the battlefield.


    In the Russia-Ukraine war (the West included in Ukraine) there will be an eventual winner
     
    I doubt it. Ukraine will be in ruins and will have to forgo EU and NATO membership, but I hold that neither of those things were ever likely in the first place and I don't believe they were what motivated the invasion.

    It's true that Russia will have gained territories and population, but I believe that Ukraine is actually better off without those territories and population because they created internal divisiveness. The new Ukraine will be firmly Western oriented and it will be possible for it to implement the economic reforms that countries such as Poland have. When the EU eventually collapses I wouldn't be surprised if we eventually see some reverse migration back to the EE countries.

    If Russia gains territory, population and resources but in exchange loses a tremendous amount of soft power and all of its influence in its most important neighbor (Ukraine), is that a victory? It can be spun as such, but I don't think it is.

    War is politics by other means and Russia absolutely sucks at politics.
  505. @Beckow
    @Emil Nikola Richard

    They teach a lot of nonsense at Yale. British Empire (and the French) lasted 20-30 or more years after WW1. They were both strengthened and enlarged after WW1, they dominated Europe - no more German-Habsburg competition. The argument that they were facing the end is ahistorical - a projection based in what happened later, mostly in WW2 and after. (WW2 was won by Russia and US, a different situation).


    Before:...superiority of the white civilization.
    After: the attitude was these guys are idiots.
     
    That was a lengthy historical process. Something similar is happening to US reputation. But it wasn't like the negroes and Indians woke up in 1918 and started to despise Europeans. Nothing that happened in 20's-30's suggests that - actually the enormous destruction and weapons of WW1 were probably quite intimidating.

    My point holds: winning a war strengthens a country. Washington has not thought this through: you never start a war where the enemy has a lot better chance to eventually win. But they have been doing it for decades, loss after loss: Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria. That is just stupidity. The odds are that Ukraine will be added to the list.

    Replies: @Coconuts, @Wokechoke, @AP

    As long as the Americans speak English and have names like Smith or Johnson I don’t think there’s much opposition to Americans taking the strain. It gives chancers like Boris the opportunity to do the swashbuckling piracy again. it was a win win.

  506. @LatW
    @Mr. Hack

    The danger is that they will use Ukraine in their pre-election fighting, the MAGA want blood. To show that the White House cannot run the assistance program properly and that it's not audited properly, would really give them some material. Of course, it would be nasty to use Ukraine in such a way. Btw, did you hear that Marjorie Taylor Greene is going to try to be Trump's VP pick?

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @sudden death

    Marjorie Taylor Greene is going to try to be Trump’s VP pick

    That should be a free boon for Dems, even a marble statue of Lincoln would win against DTJ/MTG pairing, to say nothing of calcifying, but still moving Dark Brandon, lol

    In the most rabid trumper polls Pence still has stable roughly around 8% support, Cheney or Haley another roughly 2-3% separately each, that means at least 12% of all Republicans are constantly rejecting election fakery mantras or know why geopoliticaly US needs keep supporting UA. Also it would be probably not any exaggeration to say that at least half of those 12% of all Republicans will vote for Biden or just not vote for Trump, which is also enough for another presidential defeat in 2024.

    • Replies: @Greasy William
    @sudden death


    That should be a free boon for Dems, even a marble statue of Lincoln would win against DTJ/MTG pairing, to say nothing of calcifying, but still moving Dark Brandon, lol
     
    You're overconfident.

    There is no way that Marge will be Trump's VP. It will either be Lake or Noem. Probably Noem as Trump needs to offer the establishment at least something.

    As for 2024, as long as the GOP has its own ballot harvesting game on point, it should be no problem for Trump. The US will enter a severe recession sometime between May and October and the economy will certainly still be garbage through Nov '24. Biden's shitlib base is about to see their home values and 401ks lose a tremendous amount of value. I don't think Biden can survive that environment.
    , @A123
    @sudden death



    Marjorie Taylor Greene is going to try to be Trump’s VP pick

     

    That should be a free boon for Dems, even a marble statue of Lincoln would win against DTJ/MTG pairing, to say nothing of calcifying, but still moving Dark Brandon, lol
     
    She is saying it for her own audience. Obviously, there is no chance Trump would select MTG as a running mate.

    Pence still has stable roughly around 8% support, Cheney or Haley another roughly 2-3% separately each, that means at least 12% of all Republicans are constantly rejecting election fakery mantras
     
    Backing proven election fraudster Pence might indicate 8-12% support *FOR* anti-MAGA election fakery. However, it is more likely a lack of knowledge or understanding.

    Many still think of Pence as the devout Christian he was 20+ years ago. They either do not know he turned on God and country, or somehow rationalize it as a one time error. This phenomenon is a recurring motif in U.S. Presidential elections. Both John McCain and Not-The-President Biden received votes for long gone reputation, even after they suffered severe and obvious mental decay. There really are votes on "name recognition" alone.


    probably not any exaggeration to say that at least half of those 12% of all Republicans will vote for Biden or just not vote for Trump, which is also enough for another presidential defeat in 2024.
     
    Actual numbers prove exactly the opposite: (1)

     
    https://www.zerohedge.com/s3/files/inline-images/hypo1.png
     

    In a fair election Trump would win handily.

    Any DNC election fraudster can only steal the office with help of failed leaders, such as Mike Pence and Liz Cheney. However, the penalty for supporting election fakery is being forced out of office. So, finding new accomplices with be tough for election thieves.
    ___

    We should be past this part of American history. Alas, it has returned.

     
    https://whowhatwhy.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/3.jpg
     

    There is a genuine problem with some locales replacing voting with "counting". In those areas, MAGA cannot unilaterally disarm. As distasteful as it is, Republicans must deploy ballot harvesting, ballot Fultoning, misprogrammed ballot machines, etc. with the same vigor as the opposition.

    Recent history in 2020 and 2022 elections shows that the Judiciary cannot react in a timely manner. Thus, winning obtaining office is determined by achieving the necessary count and running out the clock.

    This is not how it should be. However, one has to work within how the system actually functions.

    PEACE 😇
    __________

    (1) https://www.zerohedge.com/political/trump-desantis-lead-biden-hypothetical-2024-matchup-poll

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

  507. Sher Singh says:

    1. Hyena Road is a good film on the Canadian Forces in Afghanistan.
    Worth a watch not a documentary

    2. Lol there was general unrest in India & a complete change of power relations in post ww1 India.

    Sikh insurgency led to the government giving up regulation of the Sikh faith & installing Indian Officers on par with British one.

    Karlin has already given up btw. Will post his latest stuff in a bit. Then, I’d like to lurk for a few months & no comments.

  508. @Beckow
    @Coconuts


    ...There were French people arguing that French power was broken by the early 20s
     
    There always are people like that. There were probably Romans who thought Caesar broke the Roman power in Gaul. But the reality is that the French won WW1 (decisively) and were lording over most of Europe with Germany in tatters and smaller countries deferring to Paris. It never gets better than that, the nay-sayers are counter-intuitive.

    In the Russia-Ukraine war (the West included in Ukraine) there will be an eventual winner. And it won't be that long, this year or possibly next. Russia has an upper hand and unless they collapse internally they will win. Big or small, costly or not, Russia will win with 80% probability. (10% is Russia's collapse and 10% for 'let's go nuclear').

    Then what? A destroyed Ukraine and a humiliated West will seethe with anger and plan revenge. There will be massive polarization with no contacts, Cold war with a wall, maybe border skirmishes. Everyone will be worse off for years, Ukies most of all.

    An alternative was to accept the basic rights for Russians living in Ukraine (autonomy, schools...) and give up on the mad plan to stick Nato in Ukieland - Kiev and Washington chose not to take it. They will certainly regret it more than the Russians will. In the meantime thousands are dying because of this catastrophic miscalculations. (And yes, Merkel and Macron should be charged with triggering this war. After all the proudly confessed.)

    Replies: @Greasy William

    I would say that the 1973 Arab Israeli war dramatically decreased Israeli power, even though Israel won the war on the battlefield.

    In the Russia-Ukraine war (the West included in Ukraine) there will be an eventual winner

    I doubt it. Ukraine will be in ruins and will have to forgo EU and NATO membership, but I hold that neither of those things were ever likely in the first place and I don’t believe they were what motivated the invasion.

    It’s true that Russia will have gained territories and population, but I believe that Ukraine is actually better off without those territories and population because they created internal divisiveness. The new Ukraine will be firmly Western oriented and it will be possible for it to implement the economic reforms that countries such as Poland have. When the EU eventually collapses I wouldn’t be surprised if we eventually see some reverse migration back to the EE countries.

    If Russia gains territory, population and resources but in exchange loses a tremendous amount of soft power and all of its influence in its most important neighbor (Ukraine), is that a victory? It can be spun as such, but I don’t think it is.

    War is politics by other means and Russia absolutely sucks at politics.

  509. @Beckow
    @Emil Nikola Richard

    They teach a lot of nonsense at Yale. British Empire (and the French) lasted 20-30 or more years after WW1. They were both strengthened and enlarged after WW1, they dominated Europe - no more German-Habsburg competition. The argument that they were facing the end is ahistorical - a projection based in what happened later, mostly in WW2 and after. (WW2 was won by Russia and US, a different situation).


    Before:...superiority of the white civilization.
    After: the attitude was these guys are idiots.
     
    That was a lengthy historical process. Something similar is happening to US reputation. But it wasn't like the negroes and Indians woke up in 1918 and started to despise Europeans. Nothing that happened in 20's-30's suggests that - actually the enormous destruction and weapons of WW1 were probably quite intimidating.

    My point holds: winning a war strengthens a country. Washington has not thought this through: you never start a war where the enemy has a lot better chance to eventually win. But they have been doing it for decades, loss after loss: Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria. That is just stupidity. The odds are that Ukraine will be added to the list.

    Replies: @Coconuts, @Wokechoke, @AP

    They teach a lot of nonsense at Yale. British Empire (and the French) lasted 20-30 or more years after WW1.

    They lasted a whole 20-30 years after the victory that you claimed strengthened those empires.

    They were both strengthened and enlarged after WW1

    They were enlarged but fatally weakened, this was demonstrated by the collapse only 20-30 years after the first world war. Gaining Alsace-Lorraine was not enough to compensate for the self-destructive nature of the Pyrrhic victory.

    Ironically, Germany that lost the first world war was less weakened than France and the UK, who won it. Such was the nature of the Pyrrhic victory for the western allies.

    But they have been doing it for decades, loss after loss: Vietnam,

    So in your world the USA was weaker in the 1980s, after the loss in Vietnam?

  510. @sudden death
    @LatW


    Marjorie Taylor Greene is going to try to be Trump’s VP pick
     
    That should be a free boon for Dems, even a marble statue of Lincoln would win against DTJ/MTG pairing, to say nothing of calcifying, but still moving Dark Brandon, lol

    In the most rabid trumper polls Pence still has stable roughly around 8% support, Cheney or Haley another roughly 2-3% separately each, that means at least 12% of all Republicans are constantly rejecting election fakery mantras or know why geopoliticaly US needs keep supporting UA. Also it would be probably not any exaggeration to say that at least half of those 12% of all Republicans will vote for Biden or just not vote for Trump, which is also enough for another presidential defeat in 2024.

    Replies: @Greasy William, @A123

    That should be a free boon for Dems, even a marble statue of Lincoln would win against DTJ/MTG pairing, to say nothing of calcifying, but still moving Dark Brandon, lol

    You’re overconfident.

    There is no way that Marge will be Trump’s VP. It will either be Lake or Noem. Probably Noem as Trump needs to offer the establishment at least something.

    As for 2024, as long as the GOP has its own ballot harvesting game on point, it should be no problem for Trump. The US will enter a severe recession sometime between May and October and the economy will certainly still be garbage through Nov ’24. Biden’s shitlib base is about to see their home values and 401ks lose a tremendous amount of value. I don’t think Biden can survive that environment.

    • Thanks: A123
  511. @Greasy William

    Prior to this war, I rated Putin’s governance and statesmanship highly – after all, he strengthened the Russian economy and defense after the collapse of the Soviet Union and tangibly increased the Russian standard of living. My evaluation of national leaders is based on a rather simple criteria – has he left the country in a better shape than he found it? And he had… until this war.
     
    Strong disagree. Putin has always been a terrible leader. Yeltsin shepherded the country through the chaos and misery of the 90s and left Putin with a rapidly recovering country and a clear path towards greater reform. But not only did Putin not continue the reformist path, he reversed it due to his obsession with centralizing control. Had Putin continued on Yeltsin's path, I would expect Russia's current GDP to be at least 50% greater than it currently is.

    As for the war, the losses Russia has suffered don't matter because Russians don't care about losses. The war also has not internationally isolated Russia, it has cut it off from the West for the time being but the West is not the entire world and the non Anglo Western countries seem eager to restore relations with Russsia ASAP. Meanwhile, if Russia wins not only does it gain population, energy and industry but it dramatically weakens the international influence of the US, Russia's main rival.

    Replies: @AP, @AnonfromTN

    The facts do not support your claims. Russian population loss during “reforms” of 1990s equaled losses during WWII. Continuation of Yeltsin”s course would have exacerbated national catastrophe.

    • Replies: @Jazman
    @AnonfromTN

    Funny thing is people from the West usually talking how Russia losing population due to low birth but they do not see what is going on in their own countries . Recent statistic from Russia it is 1.7 children and comparing to USA it is similar , but Europe is damaged beyond repair , maybe imported rapist will improve situation

    , @Greasy William
    @AnonfromTN

    Yeltsin served from 1991 to 1999. In that time he successfully transitioned Russia from a Soviet dictatorship into a modern, growing country. The only good thing Putin ever did, land reform, which transformed Russia from a net food importer into an agricultural super power, was just a continuation of Yeltsin's privatization policy.

    Since Putin's renationalization of the oil industry, the industry has become over 30% less profitable than it was in private hands. Russian political culture has also become stagnant, there are no Russian TV shows mocking Putin the way that 90's Russian TV shows mocked Yeltsin. Other than Chechnya, Yeltsin became embroiled in no wars whereas Putin has gotten Russia involved in at least 3, the current one in Ukraine being extremely costly in men and material and has made Russia more dependent on it's long time rival, China. Surveys of Russian entrepreneurs indicate that government corruption increased dramatically during the first decade of Putin's reign.

    I don't dispute that 90's Russia was a bad place to live, or that Yeltsin was a buffoonish, power hungry, alcoholic who made many mistakes (the worst being his choice of successor). But I also recognize that by the time Yeltsin left he had set the stage for the Russian people to have the highest standard of living that they had ever experienced along with the highest level of personal freedom they had ever had.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @Wokechoke

  512. @Beckow
    @AP

    Got off your high horse and address what I actually said about "Pyrrhic victory" - there is no analogy because the logistics simply doesn't fit.

    If you use the phrase as "won at too great a cost to have been worthwhile for the victor.” you must establish who would decide the value of that cost. If Russia thinks that keeping Nato out and protecting the Ukie Russians is worth the cost, why would you try to second-guess them? So far the costs for Russia have been quite minimal. The constant predictions of collapse have not materialized. The costs to Ukraine have been enormous: in lives, property, future prospects...

    If Russia prevails - keeps Donbas, Azov See... and keeps Nato out - they will be better off and Kiev will be worse off. So will Washington and London. It is actually quite simple, you hide behind Greek grammar rules to avoid seeing the obvious.

    And no, it is definitely not worth dying for. You can have you fake heroism, although I noticed that you yourself are not out there fighting. You are a hypocrite.

    Replies: @Greasy William, @AP

    If you use the phrase as “won at too great a cost to have been worthwhile for the victor.” you must establish who would decide the value of that cost.

    That is irrelevant because it is subject to personal delusions or wishful thinking. Such as yours.

    If Russia thinks that keeping Nato out and protecting the Ukie Russians is worth the cost, why would you try to second-guess them?

    Well, some French may have thought that “liberating” Alsace-Lorraine and avenging the loss at Sedan was worth the cost. But objectively, their victory in the first world war fatally weakened them, and France’s hundreds-year old status as a great power was swept away a mere two decades after that victory.

    If Russia prevails – keeps Donbas, Azov See… and keeps Nato out – they will be better off and Kiev will be worse off.

    As I wrote before, Russia will have gained some valuable agricultural land, but will have lost tens of thousands of trained soldiers, thousands of tanks, many dozens of military planes, the flagship of their Black Sea Fleet, hundred thousand + educated people, much of their foreign currency reserves, an economy set back 10+ years, etc. As our former host described it – a Pyrrhic victory.

    And no, it is definitely not worth dying for.

    For a natural lackey such as yourself, it is not worth fighting for your independence as brave Poles and Ukrainians do and have done. Better to collaborate, right?

    You can have you fake heroism, although I noticed that you yourself are not out there fighting. You are a hypocrite.

    The heroism of the people in Ukraine is not fake. I never claimed any heroism for myself personally in this war. Before it started, I didn’t even urge Ukrainians to fight, though I correctly predicted they would because I know they are not like your people. I am not there, I don’t have the right to decide for them. But I support them after the decision they have made.

    And of course, neither are the pro-Russian Putin fanboys such as yourself or people like Anonin TN or Mikhail fighting there, despite cheering for Russia.

    :::::::::::::::

    BTW, now that Putin’s star has been tarnished, whose lackey will you be next? The leader whose views most closely align with yours is Orban. Perhaps its time for you to turn away from the pretense and deflection, and to openly assume your traditional position as the Magyar’s servant? Come home, Beckow.

    • Replies: @Beckow
    @AP


    ...That is irrelevant because it is subject to personal delusions or wishful thinking.
     
    What? That is a non-answer, it means literally nothing because it can be said about anything.

    French may have thought that “liberating” Alsace-Lorraine and avenging the loss at Sedan was worth the cost. But objectively...
     
    Stop there: THEY WON. They still have Alsace-Lorraine and I doubt you would find more than a few dozen weirdos in France who would had preferred to lose WW1. You are really reaching now, France won WW1 - how is that a 'delusion'? The costs of all wars are high - the costs exist whether you win or lose, when you lose it is much worse. What are you hallucinating about?

    but will have lost...
     
    You are arguing that a 150 million country with 1/4 of world resources and a bright future because of that natural wealth has no right to decide what is an appropriate cost to maintain its security and protect its co-ethnics in Ukraine. Are you saying that Russia can't decide that using 1%, or even 5-10%, is worth it? But that's what all countries do, all wars are like that. The Ukie losses will be an order of magnitude higher, why dont you ask that question of them? Is 'being in Nato' and 'suppressing the Russian minority' worth destroying 20-30% of their country and about 100k dead Ukies by now?

    Rest of your comment is infantile and badly presented, I will just let you be embarrassed by it - no need to address a fool who knows nothing about this region. Suffice to say there is no heroism in dying for a losing cause. It is just stupid. You cheering on the stupid people is quite despicable. A fool on a hill over the horizon...

    Replies: @Wokechoke, @AP

  513. @AnonfromTN
    @Greasy William

    The facts do not support your claims. Russian population loss during “reforms” of 1990s equaled losses during WWII. Continuation of Yeltsin”s course would have exacerbated national catastrophe.

    Replies: @Jazman, @Greasy William

    Funny thing is people from the West usually talking how Russia losing population due to low birth but they do not see what is going on in their own countries . Recent statistic from Russia it is 1.7 children and comparing to USA it is similar , but Europe is damaged beyond repair , maybe imported rapist will improve situation

    • Agree: LondonBob
  514. @LondonBob
    @Greasy William

    Scott Ritter making the point that all the equipment being sent is a lot less than requested, although Jacob Dreizin says the real amount sent so far is a lot more than has been announced and is often already there.

    Still think that false flag missile attack on Poland was the turning point, had they wanted to escalate, they would have then.

    Replies: @Mikhail

    Ritter at his best in this most recent video, where among other things, he discusses slapping the US:

  515. @Wokechoke
    @Greasy William

    Funnily enough, one way or another it will be Russian resources that rebuild the dump.

    Replies: @AnonfromTN

    That was my thinking a few months ago. Now I think that only Russian parts of late unlamented Ukraine will rebuilt, with the most Nazified parts deliberately left as a dump.

    • Replies: @A123
    @AnonfromTN


    That was my thinking a few months ago. Now I think that only Russian parts of late unlamented Ukraine will rebuilt, with the most Nazified parts deliberately left as a dump.
     
    And, Putin has only a limited amount of resources for reconstruction. Setting the new border along the current line of control (or something similar) is the most that Russia can absorb in a short amount of time. Capturing & rebuilding Kiev would be unaffordable.

    Ukraine need gets rid of Zelensky and obtain new, peace capable leadership. The fighting could rapidly end. Neither side would be happy about the current line, but it is workable. If this happens before Lviv, Odessa, and Kiev are reduced to rubble -- Ukraine can avoid becoming a failed state.

    The longer the fight goes, the more infrastructure is destroyed. America cannot afford to pay. The European Empire will not pay.

    Could a ruined Ukraine become a de facto CCP client state, like North Korea?

    PEACE 😇

    Replies: @QCIC, @AnonfromTN

    , @216
    @AnonfromTN

    https://external-preview.redd.it/6Mdq6AsF-Gza5zSPaTJQWLBw3SMpdwq5fuJzAew-4xY.png?auto=webp&s=f66971ce87782446f0a95e705d251d9526958e0f

    https://th.bing.com/th/id/R.59622d23c2004425d3d27cd65d41634b?rik=gwmIHBYrU9ib8g&riu=http%3a%2f%2fwww.johnstonsarchive.net%2fpolicy%2fabortion%2fukraine%2fmapukraineabrate.gif&ehk=uJF215WP%2bujv%2bsJJO2VOnbb8uzkUBsCSOZqdgkU%2bcQU%3d&risl=&pid=ImgRaw&r=0

    Galicians are the best behaved Ukrainians.

    Replies: @AP

    , @Jazman
    @AnonfromTN

    Western people especially from USA and UK love to say there is no Nazis in Banderistan
    Their argument is only 2 % voters are far right and there is Jewish president

  516. @sudden death
    @LatW


    Marjorie Taylor Greene is going to try to be Trump’s VP pick
     
    That should be a free boon for Dems, even a marble statue of Lincoln would win against DTJ/MTG pairing, to say nothing of calcifying, but still moving Dark Brandon, lol

    In the most rabid trumper polls Pence still has stable roughly around 8% support, Cheney or Haley another roughly 2-3% separately each, that means at least 12% of all Republicans are constantly rejecting election fakery mantras or know why geopoliticaly US needs keep supporting UA. Also it would be probably not any exaggeration to say that at least half of those 12% of all Republicans will vote for Biden or just not vote for Trump, which is also enough for another presidential defeat in 2024.

    Replies: @Greasy William, @A123

    Marjorie Taylor Greene is going to try to be Trump’s VP pick

    That should be a free boon for Dems, even a marble statue of Lincoln would win against DTJ/MTG pairing, to say nothing of calcifying, but still moving Dark Brandon, lol

    She is saying it for her own audience. Obviously, there is no chance Trump would select MTG as a running mate.

    Pence still has stable roughly around 8% support, Cheney or Haley another roughly 2-3% separately each, that means at least 12% of all Republicans are constantly rejecting election fakery mantras

    Backing proven election fraudster Pence might indicate 8-12% support *FOR* anti-MAGA election fakery. However, it is more likely a lack of knowledge or understanding.

    Many still think of Pence as the devout Christian he was 20+ years ago. They either do not know he turned on God and country, or somehow rationalize it as a one time error. This phenomenon is a recurring motif in U.S. Presidential elections. Both John McCain and Not-The-President Biden received votes for long gone reputation, even after they suffered severe and obvious mental decay. There really are votes on “name recognition” alone.

    probably not any exaggeration to say that at least half of those 12% of all Republicans will vote for Biden or just not vote for Trump, which is also enough for another presidential defeat in 2024.

    Actual numbers prove exactly the opposite: (1)

      

    In a fair election Trump would win handily.

    Any DNC election fraudster can only steal the office with help of failed leaders, such as Mike Pence and Liz Cheney. However, the penalty for supporting election fakery is being forced out of office. So, finding new accomplices with be tough for election thieves.
    ___

    We should be past this part of American history. Alas, it has returned.

       

    There is a genuine problem with some locales replacing voting with “counting”. In those areas, MAGA cannot unilaterally disarm. As distasteful as it is, Republicans must deploy ballot harvesting, ballot Fultoning, misprogrammed ballot machines, etc. with the same vigor as the opposition.

    Recent history in 2020 and 2022 elections shows that the Judiciary cannot react in a timely manner. Thus, winning obtaining office is determined by achieving the necessary count and running out the clock.

    This is not how it should be. However, one has to work within how the system actually functions.

    PEACE 😇
    __________

    (1) https://www.zerohedge.com/political/trump-desantis-lead-biden-hypothetical-2024-matchup-poll

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @A123


    Many still think of Pence as the devout Christian he was 20+ years ago. They either do not know he turned on God and country, or somehow rationalize it as a one time error.
     
    The Evangelical Pope, kremlinstoogeA123, has spoken and made his pronouncement. What a load of BS, as is most everything that he writes.
  517. @Dmitry
    @AP


    people at the bottom tend to engage in worse behaviors than those who are better off. Unlike in the case of Jesus’ time, prosperous people in the Christendom did not come by their wealth through conquest and enslavement, or through taxing widows and poor people. They are not likely to be wicked
     
    This is your point of view and you don't have to justify it by giving the complicated historical maneuver to give it wrong label. It's possibly true, possibly false, like any view, depending on evidence.

    But it is the opposite of the Catholic church and also opposite of what Church fathers are writing. In their view, we don't live in the time after the Second Coming. And in their teaching, pride is the first of capital sins.

    https://i.imgur.com/HZXS6hP.jpg

    https://i.imgur.com/boxeX2o.jpg

    And in their view, "failing to meet the needs" of the poor and weak is second reason for going to hell, after hate and murder.

    https://i.imgur.com/vKGcJ76.jpg


    many healthy normal children too; he is not AFAIK a Christian, so it would make no sense to appeal to the Christian idea that all people have inherent value regardless of disability. But both are true

     

    I don't understand this. Really, any normal people don't think like this, as they have morality and concepts like compassion, as the mainstream in our culture. Trying to justify in this way, looks like a discussion of psychopaths without internal morality - "Don't kill the children, because I found some justifications that they will be helpful for our political side".

    In your posts, you writer morality from a view as reducible to social utility. To be honest, this is one of the distinguishable features where you know "this is a post by AP", when you see writing about morality as something "useful".

    However, this is not real morality, that has to be based from internal compassion or duty.

    For example, you write "fear an inevitability or high likelihood of eternal Hell, atheism would conveniently calm such a fear". (Actually, atheism correlates with lower crimes, but this is not for this discussion).

    So, you believe it is good to promote the hypothetical punishment and reward of religion, so this will be able to reduce crime and socially useful behavior.

    If you control an intelligent rat in the Skinner box that understands language. Instead of using electric shock to control its behavior, you talk to the rat about the hypothetical electric shock it will have when it exits the box. So, you believe the rat will behave in the way which you desire, because it now believes there will be an electric shock when it exits the box (i.e. after life).

    This is not morality, it is the rat's selfish behavior based on hypothetical view of punishment and reward in the after life, as a rat in any box.

    But morality is the idea that you do the right things, because it is the right things, not because of consequences (electric shocks, whether in this life, or after life). If it was based in consequences (i.e. to go to heaven), then it would just be another kind of selfish behavior. This view was true also in Ancient Greece and earlier times.

    Morality is unselfish behavior. A true moral behavior, is when they do the moral behavior, even though it has negative consequences for the person (whether in this life or even in hypothetical after life).


    -

    Although there is a problem in all religions where they sometimes promote their morality, by giving the theory of the electric shock in this life or after life. This is kind of selfish behavior, even if the positive consequence will be in after life.

    Morality is based from not selfish beliefs ("what will happen to me in this life or after life"), but from the internal compassion, duty, etc.

    In the Christian writing there is some understanding of this problem, in the discussion of spirit of the law vs following the law. Jesus says the right hand can't know what the left hand is doing, when you give to the poor. Jesus says that looking at a woman with lust, is adultery (unlike, in the less strict Judaism, adultery is only an act, not the thought).

    Replies: @Coconuts, @AP

    But it is the opposite of the Catholic church and also opposite of what Church fathers are writing. In their view, we don’t live in the time after the Second Coming

    I did not claim that we did. But we do live in a Christian society that is largely based on Christian values and thus is very different from the one that Jesus rebelled against (or separated Himself from).

    Given the radical difference, the approach must also be different.

    And in their teaching, pride is the first of capital sins.

    Indeed, and we all sin.

    And in their view, “failing to meet the needs” of the poor and weak is second reason for going to hell, after hate and murder.

    Of course. And this was the heart of my dispute with AaronB. He objected to meeting the needs of the poor because he compared them to Christ and His disciples and felt that their state of poverty/refusal to work was evidence of virtue. He felt that helping them by hospitalizing them, sending them to rehab, or even in the worst case scenario if they have committed crimes sending them to prison where they will no longer be a danger to themselves or others and will receive medical care, food, shelter and help with addiction was a bad thing to do, by subjecting them to the Machine, or something like that.

    I demand that the needs of the poor be met, that we not turn away and let them rot in the street for their “freedom.” That we act as shepherds and not leave them to the wolves even if they say they want to be left to the wolves.

    I don’t understand this. Really, any normal people don’t think like this, as they have morality and concepts like compassion, as the mainstream in our culture.

    People who are not Christian may not think of unborn children as people or have compassion for them; they think o them as clumps of cells. The discussion was about them being in favor of aborting fetuses who have been determined to have Downs syndrome. For such people I used a utilitarian-social argument. That the people who give to birth to such kids also tend to have large families, and that the kids are sweethearts who elicit compassion and good from their families, so that overall their existence is good for society. This does not contradict the religious argument about inherent self-worth.

    So, you believe it is good to promote the hypothetical punishment and reward of religion, so this will be able to reduce crime and socially useful behavior.

    If you control an intelligent rat in the Skinner box that understands language. Instead of using electric shock to control its behavior, you talk to the rat about the hypothetical electric shock it will have when it exits the box. So, you believe the rat will behave in the way which you desire, because it now believes there will be an electric shock when it exits the box (i.e. after life).

    This is not morality, it is the rat’s selfish behavior based on hypothetical view of punishment and reward in the after life, as a rat in any box.

    You are repeating Kant’s ethics, right?

    He was neither a Catholic nor was he Orthodox.

    The position of the Church is that the morality involves both duty do what is right and to do things that which brings us closer to God (and therefore, to avoid Hell).

    But morality is the idea that you do the right things, because it is the right things, not because of consequences

    This is your idea of morality.

    The problem with your idea of morality is that it leads to a sort of moral nihilism. You will say that people in a society in which few people harm others because doing it is socially unacceptable, are no better than cruel people who live in a society that celebrates cruelty, because the former merely follow social convention. That the nice person in Christendom who unthinkably pays for the poor and looks after his neighbor isn’t really better than the pagan who unthinkably goes to the Coliseum in order to get entertained by animals ripping apart screaming people. One could then conclude, based on your morality, that truly moral people are more likely to exist in a society that is very depraved and that insist upon depravity for its members because in such a society doing the right thing has negative consequences rather than rewards.

    You also assume the worst of people who do the right thing because they are guided by the teaching of the Church. That someone who will not harm someone else because they fear Hell, would otherwise delight in harming someone else.

    Morality is based from not selfish beliefs (“what will happen to me in this life or after life”), but from the internal compassion, duty, etc.

    The former is often necessary to develop the latter. Morality is not arbitrary. What about someone who internalizes what is right and what is wrong based on teachings of nearness to God and fear of Hell?

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @AP


    Christian society that is largely based on Christian values and thus is very different from the one that Jesus rebelled against (or separated Himself from).

    Given the radical difference
     

    There is the theory of Nietzsche - "Anti-Christ".

    Given the radical difference, the approach must also be different.

     

    Theory of Nietzsche, to justify not following the New Testament, but giving label to these views ("different approach to New Testament") as related to New Testament. It's creative. But I'm not sure it is accurate use of the label. Catholic Church tries to follow New Testament, although with significantly moderated interpretation (they try to often use the least strict interpretation or most adjusted interpretation of the New Testament, but it still has to be based in the New Testament).

    such people I used a utilitarian-social argument. That the people who give to birth to such kids also tend to have large families, and that the kids are sweethearts who elicit compassion and good from their families, so that overall their existence is good for society.
     
    Your comments have been like this for many years.For example, you write like this to me al It's how you know "this is a post by AP".

    Which is ok. It's idiosyncratic and conventionally what the people say is "amoral", as it is against the conventional taboos in the post-Christianized society.

    If I talked like this to ordinary people e.g. my colleagues, I'm pretty sure they would consider me a bit psycho. But probably they are not open minded. Certainly it's interesting to talk to people with such more utilitarian way of looking at the world and adds an important and valuable position in the forum.


    You are repeating Kant’s ethics, right?

     

    This is a view in more sophisticated parts of the Bible, in Greek tragedy, in most everyone's conventional view as well.

    Unfortunately, I haven't looked at Kant's views carefully, just a superficial knowledge. But his writing is course one of the main modern basis for humanism.


    . You will say that people in a society in which few people harm others because doing it is socially unacceptable, are no better than cruel people who live in a society that celebrates cruelty, because the former merely follow social convention.
     
    I didn't write this and I'm not sure you understand these concepts "moral nihilism". Moral nihilism would imply that cruel behavior was morally acceptable, because of the context of the cruel society.

    In contrast to moral nihilism, I think we can agree, something can be allowed conventionally, but not morally. For example, killing disabled people, can be legally acceptable in 1930s Germany and USSR, but I doubt we would believe this is morally allowed. It was morally not acceptable, but legally acceptable.


    truly moral people are more likely to exist in a society that is very depraved and that insist upon depravity for its members because in such a society doing the right thing has negative consequences rather than rewards
     
    That doesn't make sense. Morality is based on compassion, selfless, behavior etc (this is also as said by the Catholic Church in their website). If the society is oppressing people like this, then their visibility is reduced. But the possibility for heroes can increase in some examples. For example, in a normal society, Sophie Scholl might have been a normal school student.

    However, in Christianity also has this view of specifically focusing on the people who have negative consequences for their action, often because of society. It's the history not only of the early martyrs, but most of the later saints. You know many saints who accept being viewed as rapists, humiliated, become beggars, rejected by their monastery, to do right action
    https://www.maronite-institute.org/MARI/JMS/january00/Saint_Marina_the_Monk.htm


    assume the worst of people who do the right thing because they are guided by the teaching of the Church. That someone who will not harm someone else because they

     

    Where did I write something that implies "people do the right thing because they are guided by the teaching of the Church".

    It's exactly moral people would do the right thing, while not doing it with hope of reward in the after life.

    For example, affirmative action in American universities, is controversial, partly because it could be viewed to reduce the status of the African American students.

    If an African American student, is from Harvard University. There is possibility they have attained for their academic ability, or because of affirmative action.

    There is a similar problem when the God-fearing people are giving to help the poor. Is it because they really feel compassion, or is it because they hope to be rewarded. This doesn't mean they are only acting for selfish motives. Just as the African American student doesn't necessarily only enter the university for affirmative action. But it adds the layer of information obscurity.

    In the 20th century's Catholic church teaching, the important determination, is if the person has love or hate in their soul, which is not something visible from external behavior. This is again the same as in Iron Age texts like "Book of Job", where the interest of God is to see the interior quality of the person.

    Replies: @AP

    , @Barbarossa
    @AP


    we do live in a Christian society
     
    We do?!? Do you live in some insular Catholic commune in the deep wilds of Massachusetts or something? I'm consistently amazed at your optimism at the state of our culture.

    Personally, I would say that it's hard to say that anything past the Enlightenment and certainly past the Industrial Age could lay any claim to being called a Christian society. Christian values have certainly hung around in a vestigial way, but these are slowly consumed and find their inversion in political Woke liberalism.

    Replies: @AP

  518. @LondonBob
    @AnonfromTN

    Unless the Ukrainian Army collapses then capturing major cities like Kharkov, Kherson, Odessa, Nikolaev, Zapo would be very costly, time consuming and bloody.

    Replies: @AnonfromTN

    My prediction is that not just the army, the whole puppet regime will collapse within a year. We’ll see soon enough.

  519. @AnonfromTN
    @Wokechoke

    That was my thinking a few months ago. Now I think that only Russian parts of late unlamented Ukraine will rebuilt, with the most Nazified parts deliberately left as a dump.

    Replies: @A123, @216, @Jazman

    That was my thinking a few months ago. Now I think that only Russian parts of late unlamented Ukraine will rebuilt, with the most Nazified parts deliberately left as a dump.

    And, Putin has only a limited amount of resources for reconstruction. Setting the new border along the current line of control (or something similar) is the most that Russia can absorb in a short amount of time. Capturing & rebuilding Kiev would be unaffordable.

    Ukraine need gets rid of Zelensky and obtain new, peace capable leadership. The fighting could rapidly end. Neither side would be happy about the current line, but it is workable. If this happens before Lviv, Odessa, and Kiev are reduced to rubble — Ukraine can avoid becoming a failed state.

    The longer the fight goes, the more infrastructure is destroyed. America cannot afford to pay. The European Empire will not pay.

    Could a ruined Ukraine become a de facto CCP client state, like North Korea?

    PEACE 😇

    • Replies: @QCIC
    @A123

    One factor apparently limiting Russian and Ukrainian economic and social development during the past 30 years has been the criminal oligarchy which has stolen funds while simultaneously creating huge inefficiencies in many areas. The oligarchs also seem to be linked to continual Western meddling which has caused additional inefficiencies. If Russia can take advantage of the SMO to hack back the oligarch infestation to the ground, the processes of reconstruction, revival and healing may go faster than some people expect.

    Replies: @Mikhail, @A123, @AnonfromTN

    , @AnonfromTN
    @A123

    I strongly suspect that the decision what to rebuild and develop and what to leave in tatters will be purely political, not economic.

    As to client states, the NK does not toe the Chinese line as assiduously as the imperial clients, including the EU, UK, Australia, Japan, etc., follow the imperial line. So, compared to those pathetic puppets the NK looks proudly independent.

  520. @LatW
    @Mikhail


    Including Warsaw, much of Poland had been part of the Russian Empire for a lengthy period.
     
    Do you understand what an Empire is? That it's not a sole ethnic entity? Do you understand that just because it is called "Russian" doesn't necessarily mean that Russians rule there, do you know that most Russians were peasants without rights during the time that Poland was part of the Empire and that most Russians were emancipated very late? Have you ever read the full title of Nikolai II?

    Do you realize it's been at least a 100 years since it ended?

    Do you realize that in Nikolai's title, even the core Russian lands are mentioned separately?

    Божиею поспешествующею милостию Николай Вторый, император и самодержец Всероссийский, Московский, Киевский, Владимирский, Новгородский; царь Казанский, царь Астраханский, царь Польский, царь Сибирский, царь Херсонеса Таврического, царь Грузинский; государь Псковский и великий князь Смоленский, Литовский, Волынский, Подольский и Финляндский; князь Эстляндский, Лифляндский, Курляндский и Семигальский, Самогитский, Белостокский, Корельский, Тверский, Югорский, Пермский, Вятский, Болгарский и иных; государь и великий князь Новагорода низовския земли, Черниговский, Рязанский, Полотский, Ростовский, Ярославский, Белозерский, Удорский, Обдорский, Кондийский, Витебский, Мстиславский и всея Северныя страны повелитель; и государь Иверския, Карталинския и Кабардинския земли и области Арменския; Черкасских и Горских князей и иных наследный государь и обладатель, государь Туркестанский; наследник Норвежский, герцог Шлезвиг-Голштейнский, Стормарнский, Дитмарсенский и Ольденбургский и прочая, и прочая, и прочая.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    The self proclaimed “Russian and Foreign Policy Analyst” Mike Averko lives in a strange world of his own imagination that he’s meticulously crafted for a very long time. Unfortunately, you’re wasting your time providing him any quotes in Russian, for by even his own account he only understands a modicum of Russian. It never occurred to him that in his fairy tale existence of being some sort of a “Russian Specialist”, knowing the language thoroughly would be a primary requirement.

    Here’s a cute little picture of Mickey, apparently visiting folks totally unannounced taken from a piece written by his arch nemesis of a few years back:

    “Does it make you a “foreign policy analyst” because you have letters to the editor published?”

    Great question. La Russophobe, where are you today when we need you the most?
    https://larussophobe.wordpress.com/2006/05/19/mike-averko-a-legend-in-his-own-neo-soviet-mind/

    • Troll: Mikhail
    • Replies: @Mikhail
    @Mr. Hack

    That cowardly anonymous individual or perhaps individuals have melted. Quite understandable, given their gross lies which the likes of you favor.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

  521. @A123
    @AnonfromTN


    That was my thinking a few months ago. Now I think that only Russian parts of late unlamented Ukraine will rebuilt, with the most Nazified parts deliberately left as a dump.
     
    And, Putin has only a limited amount of resources for reconstruction. Setting the new border along the current line of control (or something similar) is the most that Russia can absorb in a short amount of time. Capturing & rebuilding Kiev would be unaffordable.

    Ukraine need gets rid of Zelensky and obtain new, peace capable leadership. The fighting could rapidly end. Neither side would be happy about the current line, but it is workable. If this happens before Lviv, Odessa, and Kiev are reduced to rubble -- Ukraine can avoid becoming a failed state.

    The longer the fight goes, the more infrastructure is destroyed. America cannot afford to pay. The European Empire will not pay.

    Could a ruined Ukraine become a de facto CCP client state, like North Korea?

    PEACE 😇

    Replies: @QCIC, @AnonfromTN

    One factor apparently limiting Russian and Ukrainian economic and social development during the past 30 years has been the criminal oligarchy which has stolen funds while simultaneously creating huge inefficiencies in many areas. The oligarchs also seem to be linked to continual Western meddling which has caused additional inefficiencies. If Russia can take advantage of the SMO to hack back the oligarch infestation to the ground, the processes of reconstruction, revival and healing may go faster than some people expect.

    • Agree: LondonBob
    • Replies: @Mikhail
    @QCIC


    One factor apparently limiting Russian and Ukrainian economic and social development during the past 30 years has been the criminal oligarchy which has stolen funds while simultaneously creating huge inefficiencies in many areas. The oligarchs also seem to be linked to continual Western meddling which has caused additional inefficiencies. If Russia can take advantage of the SMO to hack back the oligarch infestation to the ground, the processes of reconstruction, revival and healing may go faster than some people expect.
     
    You'll probably agree that Russia's oligarch situation is nowhere near as bad as the Kiev regime's. Related:

    https://strategic-culture.org/news/2019/04/24/gauging-ukraine-with-russia-and-belarus/

    Replies: @QCIC

    , @A123
    @QCIC

    Russia would certainly benefit by getting rid of internal corruption and graft in both their corporate and government sectors. This applies to almost every large country. Imagine how much better the U.S. would be with less government impediments and a larger number of smaller & more competitive firms.

    The problem is not "Western meddling", it is "SJW Globalist meddling". These corrupt beasts, such as George IslamoSoros, inflict the same damage on the West as they do the East. Russia needs to send the UN/NWO and their NGO's packing. So does Israel. American cities need to get rid of oligarch meddling that elects corrupt DA prosecutors.

    This is not a battle of "East versus West".
    It is a battle of "Populists versus Globalists".


    And, the Globalists have a pathologic hatred for all of Christendom. Both East and West alike.

    PEACE 😇

    Replies: @QCIC

    , @AnonfromTN
    @QCIC

    There is no doubt that oligarch infestation and corruption are detrimental for Russian development. I want to point out, though, that all thieving scum put together sucks less lifeblood out of Russia than “brotherly” republics and “brotherly” “socialist” countries in Soviet times.

    Replies: @QCIC

  522. @A123
    @sudden death



    Marjorie Taylor Greene is going to try to be Trump’s VP pick

     

    That should be a free boon for Dems, even a marble statue of Lincoln would win against DTJ/MTG pairing, to say nothing of calcifying, but still moving Dark Brandon, lol
     
    She is saying it for her own audience. Obviously, there is no chance Trump would select MTG as a running mate.

    Pence still has stable roughly around 8% support, Cheney or Haley another roughly 2-3% separately each, that means at least 12% of all Republicans are constantly rejecting election fakery mantras
     
    Backing proven election fraudster Pence might indicate 8-12% support *FOR* anti-MAGA election fakery. However, it is more likely a lack of knowledge or understanding.

    Many still think of Pence as the devout Christian he was 20+ years ago. They either do not know he turned on God and country, or somehow rationalize it as a one time error. This phenomenon is a recurring motif in U.S. Presidential elections. Both John McCain and Not-The-President Biden received votes for long gone reputation, even after they suffered severe and obvious mental decay. There really are votes on "name recognition" alone.


    probably not any exaggeration to say that at least half of those 12% of all Republicans will vote for Biden or just not vote for Trump, which is also enough for another presidential defeat in 2024.
     
    Actual numbers prove exactly the opposite: (1)

     
    https://www.zerohedge.com/s3/files/inline-images/hypo1.png
     

    In a fair election Trump would win handily.

    Any DNC election fraudster can only steal the office with help of failed leaders, such as Mike Pence and Liz Cheney. However, the penalty for supporting election fakery is being forced out of office. So, finding new accomplices with be tough for election thieves.
    ___

    We should be past this part of American history. Alas, it has returned.

     
    https://whowhatwhy.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/3.jpg
     

    There is a genuine problem with some locales replacing voting with "counting". In those areas, MAGA cannot unilaterally disarm. As distasteful as it is, Republicans must deploy ballot harvesting, ballot Fultoning, misprogrammed ballot machines, etc. with the same vigor as the opposition.

    Recent history in 2020 and 2022 elections shows that the Judiciary cannot react in a timely manner. Thus, winning obtaining office is determined by achieving the necessary count and running out the clock.

    This is not how it should be. However, one has to work within how the system actually functions.

    PEACE 😇
    __________

    (1) https://www.zerohedge.com/political/trump-desantis-lead-biden-hypothetical-2024-matchup-poll

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    Many still think of Pence as the devout Christian he was 20+ years ago. They either do not know he turned on God and country, or somehow rationalize it as a one time error.

    The Evangelical Pope, kremlinstoogeA123, has spoken and made his pronouncement. What a load of BS, as is most everything that he writes.

  523. Sher Singh says:

    Latest Karlin postings on the war & other things:

    [MORE]

    “Feels a lot like you’re falling down the same path Richard Spencer and butthurt belt RWers do. “Power is good, therefore it is good to side with the most powerful”. Or, if you’re against the establishment (and you are) then this is self-defeating.”

    View post on imgur.com

    Click the link for full album.

    • Thanks: sudden death, Yevardian
    • Replies: @Emil Nikola Richard
    @Sher Singh

    Very sad. : (

    Every dogmatic materialist eventually gets to the brick wall. Most of them are preoccupied earning a salary and raising kids to hit it this soon but he is one of those fast track students.

    My minister recommends that he shut up and meditate for seven years but what is the chance of that?

    More likely he becomes a roommate with a tranny. But. Nobody knows what is going to happen.

    Replies: @216

  524. @QCIC
    @A123

    One factor apparently limiting Russian and Ukrainian economic and social development during the past 30 years has been the criminal oligarchy which has stolen funds while simultaneously creating huge inefficiencies in many areas. The oligarchs also seem to be linked to continual Western meddling which has caused additional inefficiencies. If Russia can take advantage of the SMO to hack back the oligarch infestation to the ground, the processes of reconstruction, revival and healing may go faster than some people expect.

    Replies: @Mikhail, @A123, @AnonfromTN

    One factor apparently limiting Russian and Ukrainian economic and social development during the past 30 years has been the criminal oligarchy which has stolen funds while simultaneously creating huge inefficiencies in many areas. The oligarchs also seem to be linked to continual Western meddling which has caused additional inefficiencies. If Russia can take advantage of the SMO to hack back the oligarch infestation to the ground, the processes of reconstruction, revival and healing may go faster than some people expect.

    You’ll probably agree that Russia’s oligarch situation is nowhere near as bad as the Kiev regime’s. Related:

    https://strategic-culture.org/news/2019/04/24/gauging-ukraine-with-russia-and-belarus/

    • Replies: @QCIC
    @Mikhail

    I believe and may have written that the oligarch situation is worse in Ukraine, but I really have no means to establish this point. It seems possible the groups are similarly powerful in both countries. I think Russia was able to partially resist the oligarchs' destructive influence for two reasons. The first reason is she is a bigger and more prosperous country with more fat to survive the "winter of the oligarchs". The second is the Soviet Military converted into the Russian military and kept alive their traditions going back hundreds of years. While they are probably as corrupt as any big military, I suspect there was some genuine sense of honor and purpose among the military leaders which at least partially kept the oligarchs in check. I don't think anything comparable emerged in Ukraine. That military vacuum may be one reason the Ukrainian oligarchs were able to manipulate the Bandera myth so successfully.

    Replies: @Mikhail

  525. @Mr. Hack
    @LatW

    The self proclaimed "Russian and Foreign Policy Analyst" Mike Averko lives in a strange world of his own imagination that he's meticulously crafted for a very long time. Unfortunately, you're wasting your time providing him any quotes in Russian, for by even his own account he only understands a modicum of Russian. It never occurred to him that in his fairy tale existence of being some sort of a "Russian Specialist", knowing the language thoroughly would be a primary requirement.

    Here's a cute little picture of Mickey, apparently visiting folks totally unannounced taken from a piece written by his arch nemesis of a few years back:

    https://i0.wp.com/photos1.blogger.com/blogger/6013/2632/320/Huckster.jpg
    "Does it make you a “foreign policy analyst” because you have letters to the editor published?"

    Great question. La Russophobe, where are you today when we need you the most?
    https://larussophobe.wordpress.com/2006/05/19/mike-averko-a-legend-in-his-own-neo-soviet-mind/

    Replies: @Mikhail

    That cowardly anonymous individual or perhaps individuals have melted. Quite understandable, given their gross lies which the likes of you favor.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @Mikhail

    What lies?

  526. @QCIC
    @A123

    One factor apparently limiting Russian and Ukrainian economic and social development during the past 30 years has been the criminal oligarchy which has stolen funds while simultaneously creating huge inefficiencies in many areas. The oligarchs also seem to be linked to continual Western meddling which has caused additional inefficiencies. If Russia can take advantage of the SMO to hack back the oligarch infestation to the ground, the processes of reconstruction, revival and healing may go faster than some people expect.

    Replies: @Mikhail, @A123, @AnonfromTN

    Russia would certainly benefit by getting rid of internal corruption and graft in both their corporate and government sectors. This applies to almost every large country. Imagine how much better the U.S. would be with less government impediments and a larger number of smaller & more competitive firms.

    The problem is not “Western meddling”, it is “SJW Globalist meddling”. These corrupt beasts, such as George IslamoSoros, inflict the same damage on the West as they do the East. Russia needs to send the UN/NWO and their NGO’s packing. So does Israel. American cities need to get rid of oligarch meddling that elects corrupt DA prosecutors.

    This is not a battle of “East versus West”.
    It is a battle of “Populists versus Globalists”.

    And, the Globalists have a pathologic hatred for all of Christendom. Both East and West alike.

    PEACE 😇

    • Replies: @QCIC
    @A123

    Maybe, I hope you are right.

    The density of SJW-Globalists is high in the West so it looks the same to a causal observer.

    On the other hand, Western European hatred and fear of Russia goes back hundreds of years and developed as empires collided. A similar hatred was transplanted into the USA and nurtured during the cold war. This had faded after 1990 but was trivially easy to reignite as part of the Ukraine project. I think there is only a small group of recovered cold warriors along with a slightly larger group of peaceniks who can see past the propaganda. Everyone else seems to be in the camp which believes "Russia=Bad, QED".

  527. @AnonfromTN
    @Greasy William

    The facts do not support your claims. Russian population loss during “reforms” of 1990s equaled losses during WWII. Continuation of Yeltsin”s course would have exacerbated national catastrophe.

    Replies: @Jazman, @Greasy William

    Yeltsin served from 1991 to 1999. In that time he successfully transitioned Russia from a Soviet dictatorship into a modern, growing country. The only good thing Putin ever did, land reform, which transformed Russia from a net food importer into an agricultural super power, was just a continuation of Yeltsin’s privatization policy.

    Since Putin’s renationalization of the oil industry, the industry has become over 30% less profitable than it was in private hands. Russian political culture has also become stagnant, there are no Russian TV shows mocking Putin the way that 90’s Russian TV shows mocked Yeltsin. Other than Chechnya, Yeltsin became embroiled in no wars whereas Putin has gotten Russia involved in at least 3, the current one in Ukraine being extremely costly in men and material and has made Russia more dependent on it’s long time rival, China. Surveys of Russian entrepreneurs indicate that government corruption increased dramatically during the first decade of Putin’s reign.

    I don’t dispute that 90’s Russia was a bad place to live, or that Yeltsin was a buffoonish, power hungry, alcoholic who made many mistakes (the worst being his choice of successor). But I also recognize that by the time Yeltsin left he had set the stage for the Russian people to have the highest standard of living that they had ever experienced along with the highest level of personal freedom they had ever had.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @Greasy William


    made Russia more dependent on it’s long time rival, China.
     
    How exacly is China supporting Russia's war efforts?

    Surveys of Russian entrepreneurs indicate that government corruption increased dramatically during the first decade of Putin’s reign.
     
    Wouldn't you say that this is mostly by design (Putler's acquiescence), rather than by chance? Knowing exactly who is benefiting from criminal schemes would make it more convenient to control those in charge and use their resources for larger kremlin projects?

    Replies: @Greasy William

    , @Wokechoke
    @Greasy William

    profits for who? I'm not sure if shoveling more money at Roman Abramovic was good for Russia.

  528. With some respectful disagreement, a good overview on the impending doom facing the Kiev regime:

  529. @A123
    @AnonfromTN


    That was my thinking a few months ago. Now I think that only Russian parts of late unlamented Ukraine will rebuilt, with the most Nazified parts deliberately left as a dump.
     
    And, Putin has only a limited amount of resources for reconstruction. Setting the new border along the current line of control (or something similar) is the most that Russia can absorb in a short amount of time. Capturing & rebuilding Kiev would be unaffordable.

    Ukraine need gets rid of Zelensky and obtain new, peace capable leadership. The fighting could rapidly end. Neither side would be happy about the current line, but it is workable. If this happens before Lviv, Odessa, and Kiev are reduced to rubble -- Ukraine can avoid becoming a failed state.

    The longer the fight goes, the more infrastructure is destroyed. America cannot afford to pay. The European Empire will not pay.

    Could a ruined Ukraine become a de facto CCP client state, like North Korea?

    PEACE 😇

    Replies: @QCIC, @AnonfromTN

    I strongly suspect that the decision what to rebuild and develop and what to leave in tatters will be purely political, not economic.

    As to client states, the NK does not toe the Chinese line as assiduously as the imperial clients, including the EU, UK, Australia, Japan, etc., follow the imperial line. So, compared to those pathetic puppets the NK looks proudly independent.

    • LOL: A123
  530. @Sher Singh
    Latest Karlin postings on the war & other things:


    "Feels a lot like you're falling down the same path Richard Spencer and butthurt belt RWers do. "Power is good, therefore it is good to side with the most powerful". Or, if you're against the establishment (and you are) then this is self-defeating."

    https://imgur.com/a/ePFj2Na

    Click the link for full album.

    Replies: @Emil Nikola Richard

    Very sad. : (

    Every dogmatic materialist eventually gets to the brick wall. Most of them are preoccupied earning a salary and raising kids to hit it this soon but he is one of those fast track students.

    My minister recommends that he shut up and meditate for seven years but what is the chance of that?

    More likely he becomes a roommate with a tranny. But. Nobody knows what is going to happen.

    • Replies: @216
    @Emil Nikola Richard

    He's what Roosh would have become without repentance.

  531. @QCIC
    @A123

    One factor apparently limiting Russian and Ukrainian economic and social development during the past 30 years has been the criminal oligarchy which has stolen funds while simultaneously creating huge inefficiencies in many areas. The oligarchs also seem to be linked to continual Western meddling which has caused additional inefficiencies. If Russia can take advantage of the SMO to hack back the oligarch infestation to the ground, the processes of reconstruction, revival and healing may go faster than some people expect.

    Replies: @Mikhail, @A123, @AnonfromTN

    There is no doubt that oligarch infestation and corruption are detrimental for Russian development. I want to point out, though, that all thieving scum put together sucks less lifeblood out of Russia than “brotherly” republics and “brotherly” “socialist” countries in Soviet times.

    • Replies: @QCIC
    @AnonfromTN

    Interesting. I would think those "brother countries" were slightly below the crucial level of political power whereas some of the oligarchs seem to have equal or greater power than the government and therefore cause more damage. It is a moot point, though. Russia has plenty of challenges as do the USA and Europe. Things are a mess, but we still have it pretty good.

  532. Swedish politicians burned Koran in front of Turkish embassy and promised to repeat this performance many times. Looks like they are scared shitless by the prospect of Sweden joining NATO.

    • Replies: @AP
    @AnonfromTN

    It was a Danish guy, who has close links to Russia. A Russophile Finn is threatening to do he same in Finland. So this is being done o behalf of Russia.

  533. @Greasy William
    @AnonfromTN

    Yeltsin served from 1991 to 1999. In that time he successfully transitioned Russia from a Soviet dictatorship into a modern, growing country. The only good thing Putin ever did, land reform, which transformed Russia from a net food importer into an agricultural super power, was just a continuation of Yeltsin's privatization policy.

    Since Putin's renationalization of the oil industry, the industry has become over 30% less profitable than it was in private hands. Russian political culture has also become stagnant, there are no Russian TV shows mocking Putin the way that 90's Russian TV shows mocked Yeltsin. Other than Chechnya, Yeltsin became embroiled in no wars whereas Putin has gotten Russia involved in at least 3, the current one in Ukraine being extremely costly in men and material and has made Russia more dependent on it's long time rival, China. Surveys of Russian entrepreneurs indicate that government corruption increased dramatically during the first decade of Putin's reign.

    I don't dispute that 90's Russia was a bad place to live, or that Yeltsin was a buffoonish, power hungry, alcoholic who made many mistakes (the worst being his choice of successor). But I also recognize that by the time Yeltsin left he had set the stage for the Russian people to have the highest standard of living that they had ever experienced along with the highest level of personal freedom they had ever had.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @Wokechoke

    made Russia more dependent on it’s long time rival, China.

    How exacly is China supporting Russia’s war efforts?

    Surveys of Russian entrepreneurs indicate that government corruption increased dramatically during the first decade of Putin’s reign.

    Wouldn’t you say that this is mostly by design (Putler’s acquiescence), rather than by chance? Knowing exactly who is benefiting from criminal schemes would make it more convenient to control those in charge and use their resources for larger kremlin projects?

    • Replies: @Greasy William
    @Mr. Hack


    Wouldn’t you say that this is mostly by design (Putler’s acquiescence), rather than by chance? Knowing exactly who is benefiting from criminal schemes would make it more convenient to control those in charge and use their resources for larger kremlin projects?
     
    It's definitely by design. Personalist regimes like Putin always deliberately utilize corruption as a means of centralizing authority. Putin could, theoretically, maintain the Presidency while reducing corruption, but the scope of his authority would be dramatically reduced and his status would not be as secure. Putin would rather remain the despot of an economic and cultural backwater than to accept all the limitations that would come with his regime being reduced to a Russian version of Orban's.

    As far as Putin is concerned, what's good for Putin is good for Russia and what's bad for Putin is bad for Russia. That is as deep as it goes with him. The man is a thug.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

  534. @Mikhail
    @Mr. Hack

    That cowardly anonymous individual or perhaps individuals have melted. Quite understandable, given their gross lies which the likes of you favor.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    What lies?

  535. Indonesia has so many islands that it is hard to find a reliable total. Some say 17,508. Others 18,307. The number of them with names isn’t even consistent.

    Instead of worrying about the Southern Kurils, the Japanese should acquire one of these tiny islands, for a song, and then send all their tattooed women there. There can’t be many of them, but they seem deleterious.

    [MORE]

    BTW, did anyone ever see this Rob Henderson tweet where he says 39% of women in the US have a tattoo! Double the rate of men!

    • Replies: @Emil Nikola Richard
    @songbird

    The women with tattoos are aligning with the American tradition of proclaiming their rugged individualism.

  536. @AnonfromTN
    Swedish politicians burned Koran in front of Turkish embassy and promised to repeat this performance many times. Looks like they are scared shitless by the prospect of Sweden joining NATO.

    Replies: @AP

    It was a Danish guy, who has close links to Russia. A Russophile Finn is threatening to do he same in Finland. So this is being done o behalf of Russia.

  537. @Mr. Hack
    @Greasy William


    made Russia more dependent on it’s long time rival, China.
     
    How exacly is China supporting Russia's war efforts?

    Surveys of Russian entrepreneurs indicate that government corruption increased dramatically during the first decade of Putin’s reign.
     
    Wouldn't you say that this is mostly by design (Putler's acquiescence), rather than by chance? Knowing exactly who is benefiting from criminal schemes would make it more convenient to control those in charge and use their resources for larger kremlin projects?

    Replies: @Greasy William

    Wouldn’t you say that this is mostly by design (Putler’s acquiescence), rather than by chance? Knowing exactly who is benefiting from criminal schemes would make it more convenient to control those in charge and use their resources for larger kremlin projects?

    It’s definitely by design. Personalist regimes like Putin always deliberately utilize corruption as a means of centralizing authority. Putin could, theoretically, maintain the Presidency while reducing corruption, but the scope of his authority would be dramatically reduced and his status would not be as secure. Putin would rather remain the despot of an economic and cultural backwater than to accept all the limitations that would come with his regime being reduced to a Russian version of Orban’s.

    As far as Putin is concerned, what’s good for Putin is good for Russia and what’s bad for Putin is bad for Russia. That is as deep as it goes with him. The man is a thug.

    • Agree: Mr. Hack
    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @Greasy William

    Unfortunately, you didn't answer my first question...


    How exactly is China supporting Russia’s war efforts?
     

    Replies: @Greasy William

  538. @songbird
    Indonesia has so many islands that it is hard to find a reliable total. Some say 17,508. Others 18,307. The number of them with names isn't even consistent.

    Instead of worrying about the Southern Kurils, the Japanese should acquire one of these tiny islands, for a song, and then send all their tattooed women there. There can't be many of them, but they seem deleterious.
    https://twitter.com/ODonnell4NH/status/1619187836099653632?s=20&t=loCUTPckl81wDC9o3L_u0w

    BTW, did anyone ever see this Rob Henderson tweet where he says 39% of women in the US have a tattoo! Double the rate of men!
    https://twitter.com/robkhenderson/status/1323302896352530433?s=20&t=d8KqL44xYjsJk5olBRBTHg

    Replies: @Emil Nikola Richard

    The women with tattoos are aligning with the American tradition of proclaiming their rugged individualism.

  539. Auto racing has begun in America.

    The 24 Hours of Daytona is this weekend. Alas, the TV coverage is garbled across multiple channels and a pay service. I will have to catch most of it next week when it is available as a coherent stream.

    Until then… Watch the Mazda MX-5 cars run on the roval. Race #1 was excellent.

    PEACE 😇

  540. EU funds stealing, beckowite type oligarchic moneybag just lost badly during nationwide presidential election in Czechia:

    Petr Pavel, a retired general and former senior Nato commander, has swept to the Czech presidency after a landslide victory over the former prime minister Andrej Babiš in an election overshadowed by rows over the war between Russia and Ukraine.

    With nearly all the votes counted, returns showed Pavel prevailing by the emphatic margin of 58.3% to 41.68%, the largest ever recorded in a Czech presidential poll and reflecting an advantage of more than 958,000 votes nationwide.

    Pavel’s supporters immediately hailed the result as a victory for liberal democracy over oligarchic populism, which they believe Babiš represents.

    As the scale of his triumph became clear, Pavel, 61, a former army chief of staff and Nato second-in-command, was greeted by ecstatic chants of “president, president” from champagne-drinking supporters as he mounted the podium at his campaign headquarters in Prague’s Karlín district.

    He called his win a victory for “truth, dignity, respect and humility” and vowed to seek national unity after an election campaign widely denounced as bitterly divisive. “We have different views on many things, but that doesn’t mean we are enemies,” said Pavel. “We have to learn to communicate with each other.”

    In a highly symbolic moment, he then received the congratulations on stage of Zuzana Čaputová, Slovakia’s president, who – like Pavel – has spoken out against populism and invoked the values of Václav Havel, the one-time dissident who was the first post-communist president of the former Czechoslovakia.

    The outcome represented a personal vindication for the pro-western Pavel, who was forced to deny false eve-of-poll reports of his own death announced on a counterfeit version of his campaign website, sparking allegations of dirty tricks and a police investigation.

    It also amounted to a humiliating rebuff for Slovak-born Babiš, 68, a billionaire tycoon who stood accused of running a shameless, scorched-earth campaign after portraying Pavel as a warmonger for his support of military aid to Ukraine. At one point, Babiš even appeared to question Nato’s collective security arrangements by saying he would never send Czech troops to Poland, a fellow member of the military alliance, if it was attacked by Russia.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jan/28/petr-pavel-wins-landslide-victory-in-czech-presidential-elections

  541. @Mikel
    @AP


    The idea that there is nothing in the universe other than that which can be systematically observed or measured by evolved apes and the instruments they have created is itself a belief, one that seems to be more fantastic and irrational than belief in God.
     
    I agree with the first part of this sentence and I have myself said on this blog in the past that that is an irrational belief. But the last part of the sentence is more problematic. That our brains are unable to fully understand the universe and anything that may lie beyond does not logically lead to embracing the myths that our ancestors used as an explanation when they were even more ignorant than us. Besides, how rational is it to embrace precisely the myths of your cultural tradition when, as AnonfromTN says, there are so many other contradictory myths to choose from?

    I've done quite a lot of science reading and my impression is that top scientists, especially theoretical physicists, are more aware than anyone of the limits of our understanding because that is what they deal with daily in their jobs. But it's true that some scientists seem to operate under the assumption that everything will eventually be understood by the human species if we just keep investigating. Absent strong IQ augmentation, I don't have such a hope. And even then I'm not sure how much a mammal brain will ever be able to grasp the deepest realities.

    Replies: @AP

    “The idea that there is nothing in the universe other than that which can be systematically observed or measured by evolved apes and the instruments they have created is itself a belief, one that seems to be more fantastic and irrational than belief in God.”

    I agree with the first part of this sentence and I have myself said on this blog in the past that that is an irrational belief. But the last part of the sentence is more problematic. That our brains are unable to fully understand the universe and anything that may lie beyond does not logically lead to embracing the myths that our ancestors used as an explanation when they were even more ignorant than us.

    They were more ignorant than us with respect to the natural world and how it works, but that’s not the main issue here, given that we accept that what we consider to be the natural world (i.e., that which is systematically observable and measurable to apes and the technology they have created) is necessarily limited anyways. If anything, our ancestors’ limitation made them be less confident in their technological and observational prowess and and therefore less prone to the irrational Scientism belief. Of course, this advantage was balanced out by their propensity to falsely assign divine explanations to natural phenomena. But if we set aside the latter, then the ancients (or even those of the earlier this century) can have much to teach us.

    So if we admit that Scientism is irrational, the door opens to the likelihood that the universe contains much that we are incapable of understanding or that will never fit into our naturalistic framework. This certainly doesn’t prove that God exists but it makes it extremely unlikely that He couldn’t exist and irrational to preclude His existence.

    And because what is “natural” (that which is systematically observable and measurable to apes and the technology they have created) can’t be everything, then supernatural is possible, also.

    And so there are rare and weird events such as miracles, the Resurrection, demonic possession, near death experiences, etc. Barbarossa may have hinted at them. A humble person comfortable with the idea of limits to scientific understanding isn’t disturbed by the prospect of such things existing (at least, if they are not negative).

    I haven’t experienced any of this stuff myself, and have even debunked an example (my kids were once frightened by weird forceful knocking on a second floor bedroom wall at an old cabin in the woods in the Appalachians we rented – I staked it out and found it was a woodpecker bird). But I have heard credible accounts in life , from a priest who witnessed an exorcism, from people in Moscow who had heard footsteps, from a physician and former director of a neurological hospital in Iraq who had tried to do research on Near Death Experiences (as systematic science, not very useful as one would expect, but the rare incidents were real).

    Besides, how rational is it to embrace precisely the myths of your cultural tradition when, as AnonfromTN says, there are so many other contradictory myths to choose from?

    I’m not given much to theological or philosophical speculation, but my admittedly primitive take is this:

    1. It’s not fully myths. The New Testament is basically eyewitness testimony. Different people did witness those events, and believed so strongly in what they saw that they were willing to be martyred for it in different places. As in all witness cases, they differed or were inconsistent on details but not on the events.

    2. Even if we were to treat is as mere myths, it would seem to be rational that the Christian religion would be the right one or at least had the best odds of being so. If God were to incarnate, it would be in the center of the most populated part of the world, near East and West. A place like Palestine.
    And if it were true, then the religion would spread and become the dominant one on the world, as it did. And if it were true, it would inspire the best in people – mercy, love, compassion, and the best and most beautiful music, literature, etc. as it did. It would be carried to all ends of the Earth.* The possibility can’t be excluded (only if we do not accept the Resurrection as fact), but it doesn’t seem rational that if there were a God it would be the god of the Andaman islanders and all the others were false, or the Raven of some North American Indian tribe. If there were a God then most of the people would find Him inevitably, unless for reasons we cannot understand He only wanted to be known by Andaman islanders. But this is contraindicated by his incarnating in Palestine.

    * Islam is the only reasonable contender here. But that may be because it’s a step-child to Christianity, close enough to also enjoy considerable success.

    • Thanks: Mr. Hack
    • LOL: Sher Singh
    • Replies: @Mikel
    @AP


    If anything, our ancestors’ limitation made them be less confident in their technological and observational prowess and and therefore less prone to the irrational Scientism belief.
     
    That is a fair point. Not being subject to the overwhelming stream of rational knowledge that science gives us, perhaps they had better intuitions about the deep meaning of life. But I am skeptical. The farther one goes in time the more primitive and elementary religions appear. Crude pantheism and practices like human sacrifices to the gods gave way to much more elaborate spirituality, especially in Asia and the Middle East. This suggests that ignorance in general doesn't lead to better forms of spirituality. Likewise, primitive societies in the modern times don't look too appealing, although some videos I've seen of hunter-gatherers appeared to show happy individuals, much more content with their lives than the average First Worlder.


    If God were to incarnate, it would be in the center of the most populated part of the world, near East and West. A place like Palestine.
     
    We must have discussed this before. If God's goal really was to maximize the reach of his message and minimize sin in the world, He would have just revealed Himself to every human on the planet, instead of sending an emissary that even most of the people around him failed to find convincing and many more never even heard of for centuries. By not doing the obvious, God just condemned many millions of humans to Hell and perpetuated all the sins he wanted to prevent in a totally unnecessary way.

    Replies: @AP

  542. Смерть Пиндосам!
    @alkhwarizmi42
    RIP to Amnesty’s former political prisoner, and nominated for Sakharov prize. https://europarl.europa.eu/news/en/press-

    [MORE]

  543. @Coconuts
    @Dmitry


    Really, any normal people don’t think like this, as they have morality and concepts like compassion, as the mainstream in our culture.
     
    Is this partly about which understanding of morality a person adopts? They used to teach us that there were three major approaches to understanding morality:

    Utilitarian/Consequentialist, 'greatest good morality'. This one has been pretty popular and prominent in the Anglo sphere over the years, maybe it is less so now.

    Deontological, famous Kantian morality. Also very influential but I always thought it was less popular than the consequentialist one in Anglo countries. On the continent it was more dominant.

    Virtue Ethics. This used to seem like the novel up and coming option. Though it was really like an old option returning.

    Although there is a problem in all religions where they sometimes promote their morality, by giving the theory of the electric shock in this life or after life.
     
    The basis of this may be in theistic virtue ethics traditions, because there God can be understood to be the fount and fulfilment of all virtue, so when God chooses to grant heaven (closeness to or union with God) that is goodness or morality itself. But from a deontological point of view this could be a moral hazard.

    A true moral behavior, is when they do the moral behavior, even though it has negative consequences for the person
     
    I remember a sort of crude counter-argument to deontological morality, that it can make morality like self-harm on behalf of an abstraction. This is likely to be a strawman but iirc the challenges to the deontological option develop along these lines.

    Also I was taught these things some time ago and now those discussions might be considered bourgeois/patriarchal/white supremacist, as a new 'revolutionary' approach to morality seems to have appeared. Here discussion of morality can't be separated from politics, and oppressed groups have special and unique insight into morality/politics due to their experience. They can use this experience to transform society for the better through revolt against oppression and gaining power. What they are going to do and how they are going to achieve this improvement can't really be codified or explained to those not part of the oppressed group, especially not to oppressors in current social contexts.

    There is a right-wing counter view to this, that questions of morality and justice can't be disassociated from the question of force and power, because this is what makes them meaningful or real. Here, to be moral or just a person or group must first be powerful and capable enough to understand and carry out what needs to be done. Morality therefore flows from 'the generosity of power'.

    I've been wondering if these are more like moral options from my grandparents generation that have somehow made a comeback.

    Replies: @Dmitry

    approaches to understanding morality

    You can see they are based from the same concept of objectivity.

    God chooses to grant heaven (closeness to or union with God) that is goodness

    Promises of heaven/hell, when they are used in the non-mystical religious context, become a control system (i.e. dog training). It is becoming not morality, but delayed version https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operant_conditioning_chamber which is based in selfish behavior.

    You can say to suicide bombers they don’t need to marry in the real world, as there are many virgins in the next world for them, if they follow the religious jihad. This is giving delayed food to the rat. Or you can say they go to hell if they don’t, there is the electric shock against the rate.

    The suicide bomber is not behaving selfless, if they believe this reward/punishment exists, but just a kind of delayed selfish behavior to attain the reward.

    But the religious tradition understands this problem and there is morality they need to explain. This is in some of the most famous religious texts, including Iron Age writing.

    For example, Book of Job, Satan is allowed to punish Job, kill his children. The punishment is not because Job is bad.

    They do punishment to Job, because he seems good. Therefore they need to test him, to see if his soul is good.

    His exterior behavior is not adequate information God. It’s not his exterior behavior which is important for God, the internal quality. Although they restore his property at the end.

    By the way, this is also the common topic of the Greek tragedy and forward to a lot of the Renaissance literature like Shakespeare.

    Catholic church also says in their official views, the determination of heaven and hell, is in final, if the person has love or hate in their soul. They don’t emphasize controlling of behavior.

    oppressed groups have special and unique insight into morality/politics due to their experience. They can use this experience to transform society for the better through revolt against oppression and gaining power moral or just a person or group must first be powerful and capable enough to understand and carry out what needs to be done. Morality therefore flows from ‘the generosity of power’

    It seems to be Nietzsche’s theory of Christianity in “Anti-Christ” – “slave morality”.

    • Replies: @RSDB
    @Dmitry


    You can say to suicide bombers they don’t need to marry in the real world, as there are many virgins in the next world for them, if they follow the religious jihad. This is giving delayed food to the rat. Or you can say they go to hell if they don’t, there is the electric shock against the rate.

    The suicide bomber is not behaving selfless, if they believe this reward/punishment exists, but just a kind of delayed selfish behavior to attain the reward.
     
    LTTE, which did much to develop and refine the use of suicide bombers as a tactic, was an avowedly secular organization. The idea, whatever its degree of validity, is that the suicide bomber gives his life not for his own advantage but for the sake of the love that he bears the community.

    On the other hand, if you sign up to join such a group, you will undergo normal military discipline which involves rewards and punishments and "controlling of behavior".

    And again, in the previous case, trusting that the rewards and punishments and virgins in the afterlife will be there after blowing yourself up is not itself an entirely neutral action. It is an act of pure trust (probably misplaced trust in this case) which probably has within it a certain movement of love, bizarre as that sounds.
  544. Damn, Thorfinsonn really is Tucker, lol

    • LOL: Yahya
    • Replies: @Greasy William
    @sudden death

    What Tucker said there is completely true. When the Revolution seizes control in the US, settling scores with the Canadians over the lockdowns is going to be the first order of business.

    Replies: @sudden death

    , @songbird
    @sudden death

    Tucker would never employ the term "fake and gay", at least, going by what Anglin says of him.

  545. @Greasy William
    @Mr. Hack


    Wouldn’t you say that this is mostly by design (Putler’s acquiescence), rather than by chance? Knowing exactly who is benefiting from criminal schemes would make it more convenient to control those in charge and use their resources for larger kremlin projects?
     
    It's definitely by design. Personalist regimes like Putin always deliberately utilize corruption as a means of centralizing authority. Putin could, theoretically, maintain the Presidency while reducing corruption, but the scope of his authority would be dramatically reduced and his status would not be as secure. Putin would rather remain the despot of an economic and cultural backwater than to accept all the limitations that would come with his regime being reduced to a Russian version of Orban's.

    As far as Putin is concerned, what's good for Putin is good for Russia and what's bad for Putin is bad for Russia. That is as deep as it goes with him. The man is a thug.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    Unfortunately, you didn’t answer my first question…

    How exactly is China supporting Russia’s war efforts?

    • Replies: @Greasy William
    @Mr. Hack

    I don't know how much direct support China has given to the current military operation, but I do know that Russia has become increasingly dependent on China since Russia has had it's relations with the West cut off.

  546. @sudden death
    Damn, Thorfinsonn really is Tucker, lol

    https://twitter.com/rpsagainsttrump/status/1619342696132538370?s=46&t=4U2ixPpjGlqyaJHByRlAtQ

    Replies: @Greasy William, @songbird

    What Tucker said there is completely true. When the Revolution seizes control in the US, settling scores with the Canadians over the lockdowns is going to be the first order of business.

    • Replies: @sudden death
    @Greasy William

    What if Revolution happens in Canada before US?;)

    Replies: @Greasy William

  547. @Mr. Hack
    @Greasy William

    Unfortunately, you didn't answer my first question...


    How exactly is China supporting Russia’s war efforts?
     

    Replies: @Greasy William

    I don’t know how much direct support China has given to the current military operation, but I do know that Russia has become increasingly dependent on China since Russia has had it’s relations with the West cut off.

  548. @Greasy William
    @sudden death

    What Tucker said there is completely true. When the Revolution seizes control in the US, settling scores with the Canadians over the lockdowns is going to be the first order of business.

    Replies: @sudden death

    What if Revolution happens in Canada before US?;)

    • Replies: @Greasy William
    @sudden death

    After the pandemic, the Canadian people have permanently lost the privilege of self determination

    Replies: @sudden death, @Sher Singh

  549. @AP
    @Dmitry


    But it is the opposite of the Catholic church and also opposite of what Church fathers are writing. In their view, we don’t live in the time after the Second Coming
     
    I did not claim that we did. But we do live in a Christian society that is largely based on Christian values and thus is very different from the one that Jesus rebelled against (or separated Himself from).

    Given the radical difference, the approach must also be different.

    And in their teaching, pride is the first of capital sins.
     
    Indeed, and we all sin.

    And in their view, “failing to meet the needs” of the poor and weak is second reason for going to hell, after hate and murder.
     
    Of course. And this was the heart of my dispute with AaronB. He objected to meeting the needs of the poor because he compared them to Christ and His disciples and felt that their state of poverty/refusal to work was evidence of virtue. He felt that helping them by hospitalizing them, sending them to rehab, or even in the worst case scenario if they have committed crimes sending them to prison where they will no longer be a danger to themselves or others and will receive medical care, food, shelter and help with addiction was a bad thing to do, by subjecting them to the Machine, or something like that.

    I demand that the needs of the poor be met, that we not turn away and let them rot in the street for their "freedom." That we act as shepherds and not leave them to the wolves even if they say they want to be left to the wolves.

    I don’t understand this. Really, any normal people don’t think like this, as they have morality and concepts like compassion, as the mainstream in our culture.
     
    People who are not Christian may not think of unborn children as people or have compassion for them; they think o them as clumps of cells. The discussion was about them being in favor of aborting fetuses who have been determined to have Downs syndrome. For such people I used a utilitarian-social argument. That the people who give to birth to such kids also tend to have large families, and that the kids are sweethearts who elicit compassion and good from their families, so that overall their existence is good for society. This does not contradict the religious argument about inherent self-worth.

    So, you believe it is good to promote the hypothetical punishment and reward of religion, so this will be able to reduce crime and socially useful behavior.

    If you control an intelligent rat in the Skinner box that understands language. Instead of using electric shock to control its behavior, you talk to the rat about the hypothetical electric shock it will have when it exits the box. So, you believe the rat will behave in the way which you desire, because it now believes there will be an electric shock when it exits the box (i.e. after life).

    This is not morality, it is the rat’s selfish behavior based on hypothetical view of punishment and reward in the after life, as a rat in any box.

     

    You are repeating Kant's ethics, right?

    He was neither a Catholic nor was he Orthodox.

    The position of the Church is that the morality involves both duty do what is right and to do things that which brings us closer to God (and therefore, to avoid Hell).

    But morality is the idea that you do the right things, because it is the right things, not because of consequences
     
    This is your idea of morality.

    The problem with your idea of morality is that it leads to a sort of moral nihilism. You will say that people in a society in which few people harm others because doing it is socially unacceptable, are no better than cruel people who live in a society that celebrates cruelty, because the former merely follow social convention. That the nice person in Christendom who unthinkably pays for the poor and looks after his neighbor isn't really better than the pagan who unthinkably goes to the Coliseum in order to get entertained by animals ripping apart screaming people. One could then conclude, based on your morality, that truly moral people are more likely to exist in a society that is very depraved and that insist upon depravity for its members because in such a society doing the right thing has negative consequences rather than rewards.

    You also assume the worst of people who do the right thing because they are guided by the teaching of the Church. That someone who will not harm someone else because they fear Hell, would otherwise delight in harming someone else.

    Morality is based from not selfish beliefs (“what will happen to me in this life or after life”), but from the internal compassion, duty, etc.
     
    The former is often necessary to develop the latter. Morality is not arbitrary. What about someone who internalizes what is right and what is wrong based on teachings of nearness to God and fear of Hell?

    Replies: @Dmitry, @Barbarossa

    Christian society that is largely based on Christian values and thus is very different from the one that Jesus rebelled against (or separated Himself from).

    Given the radical difference

    There is the theory of Nietzsche – “Anti-Christ”.

    Given the radical difference, the approach must also be different.

    Theory of Nietzsche, to justify not following the New Testament, but giving label to these views (“different approach to New Testament”) as related to New Testament. It’s creative. But I’m not sure it is accurate use of the label. Catholic Church tries to follow New Testament, although with significantly moderated interpretation (they try to often use the least strict interpretation or most adjusted interpretation of the New Testament, but it still has to be based in the New Testament).

    such people I used a utilitarian-social argument. That the people who give to birth to such kids also tend to have large families, and that the kids are sweethearts who elicit compassion and good from their families, so that overall their existence is good for society.

    Your comments have been like this for many years.For example, you write like this to me al It’s how you know “this is a post by AP”.

    Which is ok. It’s idiosyncratic and conventionally what the people say is “amoral”, as it is against the conventional taboos in the post-Christianized society.

    If I talked like this to ordinary people e.g. my colleagues, I’m pretty sure they would consider me a bit psycho. But probably they are not open minded. Certainly it’s interesting to talk to people with such more utilitarian way of looking at the world and adds an important and valuable position in the forum.

    You are repeating Kant’s ethics, right?

    This is a view in more sophisticated parts of the Bible, in Greek tragedy, in most everyone’s conventional view as well.

    Unfortunately, I haven’t looked at Kant’s views carefully, just a superficial knowledge. But his writing is course one of the main modern basis for humanism.

    . You will say that people in a society in which few people harm others because doing it is socially unacceptable, are no better than cruel people who live in a society that celebrates cruelty, because the former merely follow social convention.

    I didn’t write this and I’m not sure you understand these concepts “moral nihilism”. Moral nihilism would imply that cruel behavior was morally acceptable, because of the context of the cruel society.

    In contrast to moral nihilism, I think we can agree, something can be allowed conventionally, but not morally. For example, killing disabled people, can be legally acceptable in 1930s Germany and USSR, but I doubt we would believe this is morally allowed. It was morally not acceptable, but legally acceptable.

    truly moral people are more likely to exist in a society that is very depraved and that insist upon depravity for its members because in such a society doing the right thing has negative consequences rather than rewards

    That doesn’t make sense. Morality is based on compassion, selfless, behavior etc (this is also as said by the Catholic Church in their website). If the society is oppressing people like this, then their visibility is reduced. But the possibility for heroes can increase in some examples. For example, in a normal society, Sophie Scholl might have been a normal school student.

    However, in Christianity also has this view of specifically focusing on the people who have negative consequences for their action, often because of society. It’s the history not only of the early martyrs, but most of the later saints. You know many saints who accept being viewed as rapists, humiliated, become beggars, rejected by their monastery, to do right action
    https://www.maronite-institute.org/MARI/JMS/january00/Saint_Marina_the_Monk.htm

    assume the worst of people who do the right thing because they are guided by the teaching of the Church. That someone who will not harm someone else because they

    Where did I write something that implies “people do the right thing because they are guided by the teaching of the Church”.

    It’s exactly moral people would do the right thing, while not doing it with hope of reward in the after life.

    For example, affirmative action in American universities, is controversial, partly because it could be viewed to reduce the status of the African American students.

    If an African American student, is from Harvard University. There is possibility they have attained for their academic ability, or because of affirmative action.

    There is a similar problem when the God-fearing people are giving to help the poor. Is it because they really feel compassion, or is it because they hope to be rewarded. This doesn’t mean they are only acting for selfish motives. Just as the African American student doesn’t necessarily only enter the university for affirmative action. But it adds the layer of information obscurity.

    In the 20th century’s Catholic church teaching, the important determination, is if the person has love or hate in their soul, which is not something visible from external behavior. This is again the same as in Iron Age texts like “Book of Job”, where the interest of God is to see the interior quality of the person.

    • Replies: @AP
    @Dmitry


    Theory of Nietzsche, to justify not following the New Testament,
     
    Translation: not following the personal interpretation of the New Testament by the atheist Dmitry.

    Catholic Church tries to follow New Testament, although with significantly moderated interpretation
     
    Are you going to claim that you know how better interpret the New Testament than the very Church that created it?

    Morality is based on compassion, selfless, behavior etc (this is also as said by the Catholic Church in their website).
     
    Correct. And a beautiful thing about Christendom is that it makes compassion socially acceptable and cruelty unacceptable, and it organizes society such that people are usually treated well and nicely. In a primitive pre-Christian society I may be lauded for my strength and cunning if I lead a band and ambush and kill the neighbors, take their land and women (the violent death rate of such societies both historically and in pockets where they remain such as in the Amazon is about 30%). Here I would be condemned, imprisoned and my family would be embarrassed of me. Does this mean that the compassionate people in Christendom have difficulty being really moral because in this society they benefit from being compassionate and just and are punished if they are not compassionate?

    There is a similar problem when the God-fearing people are giving to help the poor. Is it because they really feel compassion, or is it because they hope to be rewarded.
     
    Why the "or?" Why can't it be both? It is common in our society for people to both want to do the moral thing and to enjoy the rewards of doing so. Or to have first done the good thing because of reward, and then internalized doing the right thing and subsequently doing it for its own sake (say, in the case of raising children to be nice adults). It is a beauty of the Christian society that both coexist in it. Such a society ought to celebrated and strengthened and not falsely equalized to the wicked one of the past, condemned and undermined.

    In the 20th century’s Catholic church teaching, the important determination, is if the person has love or hate in their soul,
     
    Yes, the consequences of having a hate-filled soul are dire. They are spelled out repeatedly.

    which is not something visible from external behavior
     
    Not visible but can be inferred, though not always.

    Replies: @Dmitry

  550. @sudden death
    Damn, Thorfinsonn really is Tucker, lol

    https://twitter.com/rpsagainsttrump/status/1619342696132538370?s=46&t=4U2ixPpjGlqyaJHByRlAtQ

    Replies: @Greasy William, @songbird

    Tucker would never employ the term “fake and gay”, at least, going by what Anglin says of him.

  551. @AnonfromTN
    @QCIC

    There is no doubt that oligarch infestation and corruption are detrimental for Russian development. I want to point out, though, that all thieving scum put together sucks less lifeblood out of Russia than “brotherly” republics and “brotherly” “socialist” countries in Soviet times.

    Replies: @QCIC

    Interesting. I would think those “brother countries” were slightly below the crucial level of political power whereas some of the oligarchs seem to have equal or greater power than the government and therefore cause more damage. It is a moot point, though. Russia has plenty of challenges as do the USA and Europe. Things are a mess, but we still have it pretty good.

  552. @A123
    @QCIC

    Russia would certainly benefit by getting rid of internal corruption and graft in both their corporate and government sectors. This applies to almost every large country. Imagine how much better the U.S. would be with less government impediments and a larger number of smaller & more competitive firms.

    The problem is not "Western meddling", it is "SJW Globalist meddling". These corrupt beasts, such as George IslamoSoros, inflict the same damage on the West as they do the East. Russia needs to send the UN/NWO and their NGO's packing. So does Israel. American cities need to get rid of oligarch meddling that elects corrupt DA prosecutors.

    This is not a battle of "East versus West".
    It is a battle of "Populists versus Globalists".


    And, the Globalists have a pathologic hatred for all of Christendom. Both East and West alike.

    PEACE 😇

    Replies: @QCIC

    Maybe, I hope you are right.

    The density of SJW-Globalists is high in the West so it looks the same to a causal observer.

    On the other hand, Western European hatred and fear of Russia goes back hundreds of years and developed as empires collided. A similar hatred was transplanted into the USA and nurtured during the cold war. This had faded after 1990 but was trivially easy to reignite as part of the Ukraine project. I think there is only a small group of recovered cold warriors along with a slightly larger group of peaceniks who can see past the propaganda. Everyone else seems to be in the camp which believes “Russia=Bad, QED”.

  553. I’d watch a show where Tariq went around with his posse trying to guess who were FBAs (“Foundational Black Americans”, i.e. people who came during the Great Migration). But only if they followed it up with an objective testing method.

  554. @sudden death
    @Greasy William

    What if Revolution happens in Canada before US?;)

    Replies: @Greasy William

    After the pandemic, the Canadian people have permanently lost the privilege of self determination

    • LOL: Sher Singh
    • Replies: @sudden death
    @Greasy William

    Will wait what OG expert of Westerner self determination ('216') has to say on the matter, Canadian truckers might have a say too;)

    , @Sher Singh
    @Greasy William


    2. Even if we were to treat is as mere myths, it would seem to be rational that the Christian religion would be the right one or at least had the best odds of being so. If God were to incarnate, it would be in the center of the most populated part of the world, near East and West. A place like Palestine.
    And if it were true, then the religion would spread and become the dominant one on the world, as it did. And if it were true, it would inspire the best in people – mercy, love, compassion, and the best and most beautiful music, literature, etc. as it did. It would be carried to all ends of the Earth.* The possibility can’t be excluded (only if we do not accept the Resurrection as fact), but it doesn’t seem rational that if there were a God it would be the god of the Andaman islanders and all the others were false, or the Raven of some North American Indian tribe. If there were a God then most of the people would find Him inevitably, unless for reasons we cannot understand He only wanted to be known by Andaman islanders. But this is contraindicated by his incarnating in Palestine.
     
    Palestine is named after Phillistines to troll Jews - that's the power of your Abrahamic cult @AP

    @Greasy William you've gone from Jewish Nationalist to White Ruralite or Middle American Radical. You want assimilation & try to use conspiratory rhetoric to get it.

    2/3s of Canadians don't vote Conservatives & the majority Conservative belt is primarily a fuck you to Liberals over 1970s oil policies. Canada is a place where the newer Euro immigrants will race mix only with blacks & the Old stock will mix with anything but blacks & have a fair bit of Native.

    It's already Brazil & doesn't need your blanquiamento.

    @Bashibazuk

    Genetics only confirmed this 10 years ago when we finally realized that modern Europeans are gentically closer to middle easterners than they are to European hunter gatherers. 45-95% of European ancestry is from a middle eastern farming population that arrived from Anatolia. This popuoation was genetically extremely close to Arabs and Iranians
     
    This was an interesting quote from upthread & the realization dawned on me how disingenuous the PIE larp is.

    Vedics have been redefined as Russians despite there being complete genetic continuity in Panjab between Vedic Aryans & modern population - even in religion.

    Meanwhile, that the majority of European DNA is non-Yamnaya is ignored & the whole continent is structured around this idea of being primordial conquerors. We're majority bell beaker or corded ware you'll say.

    Well, we're Vedic.

    https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/962860873435713557/962862636360417390/unknown.png

    https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/962860873435713557/1069181494179926036/Guru_Sahib.jpg

    ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫਤਹਿ
  555. @Mikhail
    @QCIC


    One factor apparently limiting Russian and Ukrainian economic and social development during the past 30 years has been the criminal oligarchy which has stolen funds while simultaneously creating huge inefficiencies in many areas. The oligarchs also seem to be linked to continual Western meddling which has caused additional inefficiencies. If Russia can take advantage of the SMO to hack back the oligarch infestation to the ground, the processes of reconstruction, revival and healing may go faster than some people expect.
     
    You'll probably agree that Russia's oligarch situation is nowhere near as bad as the Kiev regime's. Related:

    https://strategic-culture.org/news/2019/04/24/gauging-ukraine-with-russia-and-belarus/

    Replies: @QCIC

    I believe and may have written that the oligarch situation is worse in Ukraine, but I really have no means to establish this point. It seems possible the groups are similarly powerful in both countries. I think Russia was able to partially resist the oligarchs’ destructive influence for two reasons. The first reason is she is a bigger and more prosperous country with more fat to survive the “winter of the oligarchs”. The second is the Soviet Military converted into the Russian military and kept alive their traditions going back hundreds of years. While they are probably as corrupt as any big military, I suspect there was some genuine sense of honor and purpose among the military leaders which at least partially kept the oligarchs in check. I don’t think anything comparable emerged in Ukraine. That military vacuum may be one reason the Ukrainian oligarchs were able to manipulate the Bandera myth so successfully.

    • Replies: @Mikhail
    @QCIC


    I think Russia was able to partially resist the oligarchs’ destructive influence for two reasons. The first reason is she is a bigger and more prosperous country with more fat to survive the “winter of the oligarchs”. The second is the Soviet Military converted into the Russian military and kept alive their traditions going back hundreds of years. While they are probably as corrupt as any big military, I suspect there was some genuine sense of honor and purpose among the military leaders which at least partially kept the oligarchs in check. I don’t think anything comparable emerged in Ukraine. That military vacuum may be one reason the Ukrainian oligarchs were able to manipulate the Bandera myth so successfully.
     
    On the matter of corruption in the military, the US outspends the next seven leading countries in defense spending combined. Russia has been ranking around fourth to fifth in defense spending. Five the the ten leading nations in that category are NATO members.

    Yet, look who is having the greater problems with arms supplies.

    Replies: @A123

  556. @Greasy William
    @sudden death

    After the pandemic, the Canadian people have permanently lost the privilege of self determination

    Replies: @sudden death, @Sher Singh

    Will wait what OG expert of Westerner self determination (‘216’) has to say on the matter, Canadian truckers might have a say too;)

  557. Which animal has a faster reaction time, a cat or a chicken?

    [MORE]

    My instinct says “chicken.” And, perhaps, I am backed up by all the iconography of birds with snakes in their beaks.

    • Replies: @Barbarossa
    @songbird

    This summer while building my addition a chicken got into my house and went jetting out with the tiny kitten riding it's back angling for the kill.

    The chicken escaped unscathed but the kitten had high hopes.

    My data set is small and my information anecdotal so I can sadly offer little certainty in this pressing scientific matter.

    Replies: @songbird

  558. @AP
    @Beckow


    If you use the phrase as “won at too great a cost to have been worthwhile for the victor.” you must establish who would decide the value of that cost.
     
    That is irrelevant because it is subject to personal delusions or wishful thinking. Such as yours.

    If Russia thinks that keeping Nato out and protecting the Ukie Russians is worth the cost, why would you try to second-guess them?
     
    Well, some French may have thought that "liberating" Alsace-Lorraine and avenging the loss at Sedan was worth the cost. But objectively, their victory in the first world war fatally weakened them, and France's hundreds-year old status as a great power was swept away a mere two decades after that victory.

    If Russia prevails – keeps Donbas, Azov See… and keeps Nato out – they will be better off and Kiev will be worse off.
     
    As I wrote before, Russia will have gained some valuable agricultural land, but will have lost tens of thousands of trained soldiers, thousands of tanks, many dozens of military planes, the flagship of their Black Sea Fleet, hundred thousand + educated people, much of their foreign currency reserves, an economy set back 10+ years, etc. As our former host described it - a Pyrrhic victory.

    And no, it is definitely not worth dying for.
     
    For a natural lackey such as yourself, it is not worth fighting for your independence as brave Poles and Ukrainians do and have done. Better to collaborate, right?

    You can have you fake heroism, although I noticed that you yourself are not out there fighting. You are a hypocrite.
     
    The heroism of the people in Ukraine is not fake. I never claimed any heroism for myself personally in this war. Before it started, I didn't even urge Ukrainians to fight, though I correctly predicted they would because I know they are not like your people. I am not there, I don't have the right to decide for them. But I support them after the decision they have made.

    And of course, neither are the pro-Russian Putin fanboys such as yourself or people like Anonin TN or Mikhail fighting there, despite cheering for Russia.

    :::::::::::::::

    BTW, now that Putin's star has been tarnished, whose lackey will you be next? The leader whose views most closely align with yours is Orban. Perhaps its time for you to turn away from the pretense and deflection, and to openly assume your traditional position as the Magyar's servant? Come home, Beckow.

    Replies: @Beckow

    …That is irrelevant because it is subject to personal delusions or wishful thinking.

    What? That is a non-answer, it means literally nothing because it can be said about anything.

    French may have thought that “liberating” Alsace-Lorraine and avenging the loss at Sedan was worth the cost. But objectively…

    Stop there: THEY WON. They still have Alsace-Lorraine and I doubt you would find more than a few dozen weirdos in France who would had preferred to lose WW1. You are really reaching now, France won WW1 – how is that a ‘delusion’? The costs of all wars are high – the costs exist whether you win or lose, when you lose it is much worse. What are you hallucinating about?

    but will have lost…

    You are arguing that a 150 million country with 1/4 of world resources and a bright future because of that natural wealth has no right to decide what is an appropriate cost to maintain its security and protect its co-ethnics in Ukraine. Are you saying that Russia can’t decide that using 1%, or even 5-10%, is worth it? But that’s what all countries do, all wars are like that. The Ukie losses will be an order of magnitude higher, why dont you ask that question of them? Is ‘being in Nato’ and ‘suppressing the Russian minority’ worth destroying 20-30% of their country and about 100k dead Ukies by now?

    Rest of your comment is infantile and badly presented, I will just let you be embarrassed by it – no need to address a fool who knows nothing about this region. Suffice to say there is no heroism in dying for a losing cause. It is just stupid. You cheering on the stupid people is quite despicable. A fool on a hill over the horizon…

    • Replies: @Wokechoke
    @Beckow

    Given Russian Artillery numbers it's highly likely that Ukies have lost 100,000 dead.

    Replies: @Greasy William

    , @AP
    @Beckow


    "French may have thought that “liberating” Alsace-Lorraine and avenging the loss at Sedan was worth the cost. But objectively…"

    Stop there: THEY WON.
     
    They lost at the famous battle of Sedan, where their leader was captured by the Germans. You are even more ignorant than I realized.

    The French were seething about that loss and eagerly got themselves into World War I.

    They still have Alsace-Lorraine and I doubt you would find more than a few dozen weirdos in France who would had preferred to lose WW1
     
    Any Frenchman capable of thought (unlike you) would have preferred for France not to have fought in World War I. France's victory was a Pyrrhic one: France was terminally weakened by it. Only about 20 years later it would collapse in 6 weeks, and soon after it would lose the empire that it had built over centuries.

    The Ukie losses will be an order of magnitude higher, why dont you ask that question of them? Is ‘being in Nato’ and ‘suppressing the Russian minority’ worth destroying 20-30% of their country
     
    The Ukrainian people decided that they do not want to be controlled by Russia and they are willing to fight for that at the risk of death. Poles understand Ukrainians, but you, a natural lackey, will never understand that. As you helpfully confirm with each of your comments like this one.
  559. @LatW
    @Dmitry


    In terms of historically, Poland was not part of the Soviet Union or Russian Empire. Although again, I’m not sure this is predictive for the economic future. Estonia is former territory of the Russian Empire and USSR. But Estonia has been one of the more fast converging countries in the EU.
     
    Estonia was never fully run by Eastern Slavs, not even during the Empire times. Estonia was never fully Sovietized and Russified during the Soviet times either. They didn't fully even ever speak Russian (unlike in Latvia and Lithuania and even there only two generations spoke Russian as the second language, none of my grandparents did, for example, they spoke German as the second language). The Baltic States had to drive out the Soviets in 1920 by force when they tried to come back. Ukraine didn't manage to, not even Western Ukraine, unfortunately - Ukraine's situation was objectively more difficult (even by the standards of that period). Latvia was more Sovietized than Estonia because it was the main Baltic military center and strategically more important than Estonia.

    As to Ukraine, yes, they may seem a little less organized (they have also had more challenging situations to deal with), but there is a certain overlap with Estonia there, if you care to look, in particular in the upper managerial class in places such as Kyiv. Before the war their startup culture was being built up and it would've grown and it was becoming globally competitive just like Estonian (with their own flavor maybe). Because of the invasion, they had to expatriate their companies in some cases.

    They have a technical advantage in some ways. Also, before the war they started competing with us with agricultural product that was imported into the EU. This could've also been elaborated and expanded on and would've brought them some success. So they do have potential, even potential to compete at the highest global level. They are also able to organize themselves from the bottom, they have a giant volunteer network that basically functions on its own. They can build a solid upper managerial class that can help them organize themselves quite well.

    So it's not a black and white picture. What was shown in the international media, was mostly the negative sides. Donbas culture in some ways is also a very particular post-industrial culture. But even the post-Soviet culture in the East was successful in some ways, if you remember the new things they had built there.

    At the state level, there were not as organized but mostly unprepared for the extremely challenging situation that befell them. In the Baltic States, a lot of those negative and more violent displays would've been tackled immediately, preemptively, with force before they get out of control. The temper in the Baltics is also more subdued and, most importantly, these issues were never as challenging or widespread as in Ukraine, or as heavily influenced from outside. The mistake was to not use enough force where it was needed and too much force where it was not needed. But I do not blame them, their situation was very challenging.

    I used to live in Republic of Ireland. Sure, dark hair is not so uncommon in this region (Ireland is not Finland).
     
    Yea, but they have dark hair with pale skin and light eyes, not tan skin. Some British can also be platinum blond like Finns (not sure which British those are mostly, maybe Scots who are closer to Norwegians or maybe Irish from places like Cork and Dingle where they are very tall). And with porcelain color skin, whereas the Norwegians that are platinum blonde are a little more tan. Those are just different Northern types. A Northern Russian who is blondish will typically be neither tan nor very pale, but something in the middle, a normal N.Euro white, which is what I like most.

    The main thing is how extrovert, talkative and relaxed they are compared to anywhere in Northern Europe.
     
    Absolutely, they have a very sweet personality. The rest of Euros are total meanies in comparison (maybe with the exception of French and Italian), especially the sombre EEs with their permanently dark and critical outlook.

    But it seems like Alec Baldwin’s wife has just covered with too much black dye to the hair and fake tan solutions because she wanted to be latino instead of white.
     
    I don't know, sometimes women add color even to dark hair to make the hair look shinier and more evenly colored. Is she fully Irish or half-Irish half Hispanic. In the US, Irish and Italian mixes are quite common for religious reasons. And speaking of black hair dye, it used to be a fashion for some EE girls to color their hair black to have "brighter" and more visible hair, as opposed to the "boring" dark blond shade (my preference has always been to go the other way and just add blond highlights).

    Have you seen Alec Baldwin's daughter with Kim Basinger, Ireland Baldwin? I think she's naturally a dark blonde with light eyes. I absolutely love Kim Basinger, from what I gather she's English, Irish, Swedish... she doesn't strike me as typically British though. I know a Latvian woman who looks a lot like her.

    Trying not to be white is kind of internationally common not only in America though – you know in Russia, people are boasting if they have the non-Russian ancestor.
     
    In America, whites still have an advantage in the dating market. White women might still have an advantage at work, but that may be changing now.

    As to Russia, that's kind of endearing and understandable in a large country. I've noticed that many Russians try to pretend they have "Frenchness". But more culturally not ethnically. I would say, I'm more into "authentic" East Slavic types though.

    Replies: @Dmitry

    Sure, my sentence is incompetently written, a lot of Poland is occupied by the Russian empire, but I mean not integrated in the full way, then their 20th century is very different. The parts which “become Russian” are really Lithuania/Latvia. Vilnius or Riga are becoming seen as cities of the Russian empire.

    . Estonia was never fully Sovietized

    Estonians were the most educated nationality in the empire the 19th century already, with the lowest fertility rate (which matches education level).

    [MORE]

    very sweet personality. The rest of Euros are total meanies in comparison (maybe with the exception of French and Italian), especially the sombre EEs

    I would have to disagree a lot. Irish people have very high ratio of extroverted people, for whatever reason. They also have the high agreeableness (unlike e.g. France). This doesn’t mean they are more sweet.

    Extroverts are often more cynical and manipulative, compared to introverts. You know the higher executives in companies, usually seem very extroverted – they live to talk to you, it’s not necessarily because they care about you.

    And I would say this is also in the culture level – for example, in cultures like Ireland or Italy, people are default very friendly and charming, but it doesn’t have the same implication as in the introvert society.

    In the wider culture level. This is one of the things about very introvert people like Russians. In the short term, it more unfriendly, but inside introvert nationalities like Russians are still often more friendly.

    In the individual level, it’s also sometimes like this.My former girlfriend who was introverted. In some ways, they were unusually cold. But in other ways, more kindly than normal people. It’s like we all have limited quantity of energy. People who are very extroverted are spreading it to unfamiliar people, but it’s not necessarily very deep.

    blond like Finns (not sure which British those are mostly, maybe Scots

    I think it’s just the stereotypical for the Southern English people. Light hair is not uncommon there. And the dark hair people are maybe more common in the celtic origins Ireland or Wales? Although I can’t say I really remember the differences visually, although I remember a lot of the difference culturally.

    Maybe it’s more common with the Southern English.

    If you type the list of the best famous English schools in the ruling part of England, type on YouTube where the those elite places where child times of Boris Johnson, Prince William and Rishi Sunak were studying. People of the Southern England look quite light.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=frJa8BakD4M.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-P0WF5r4BcA.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nHh0X8P_36c.

    she fully Irish or half-Irish half Hispanic. In the US, Irish and Italian mixes are quite common for religious reasons. And speaking of black hair dye,

    From little I can understand of the other “cause célèbre” of the Baldwins, she is a white woman from Boston, that is saying and changing appearance to look Spanish.

    Alec Baldwin’s daughter with Kim Basinger, Ireland Baldwin? I think she’s naturally a dark blonde with light eyes. I absolutely love Kim Basinger, from what I gather she’s English, Irish, Swedish… she doesn’t strike me as typically British though

    It’s possible Alec Baldwin is not very Irish. Maybe he is only Irish to the third generation. You know what the real Irish people say about Irish Americans? They often call them fakes.

    whites still have an advantage in the dating market. White women might still have an advantage at work

    I’m sure if you were good looking Latino or Italian (let’s say, adjusted for wealth) you would be above white people on average in the dating market.

    Probably the maximum advantage in America’s dating, would be a wealthy Mexican or Brazilian heir.

    Russia, that’s kind of endearing and understandable in a large country. I’ve noticed that many Russians try to pretend they have “Frenchness”

    Most everyone wants to feel special and not like the rest of the cattle. Lucky people can find an exotic ancestor and boast about it, or it becomes a new hobby for them.

    The most common is probably boasting about the Cossack or Jewish ancestors. “I’m not descended from the ordinary peasants”. But also it’s common with many other of the nationalities.

    The problem about boasting about Jewish ancestors, is the Jewish world is very organized, and if you call yourself Jewish too much, the real Jews will consider you fake unless you match their specific criteria rules and show the documents. It also depends on which side of the family etc. But if you find your Tatar or Bashkir etc, ancestor, you can do fully Elizabeth Warren and they aren’t organized enough to call you fake.

    You can be blond, with Russian family name, and talk about your special Tatar or Kalmyk soul and (I don’t have experience but I assume) nobody from their organizations will ask for documents.

    • Replies: @Yevardian
    @Dmitry


    I would have to disagree a lot. Irish people have very high ratio of extroverted people, for whatever reason. They also have the high agreeableness (unlike e.g. France). This doesn’t mean they are more sweet.

    Extroverts are often more cynical and manipulative, compared to introverts. You know the higher executives in companies, usually seem very extroverted – they live to talk to you, it’s not necessarily because they care about you.
     

    I've noticed cultural differences in this regard a lot since I was child. Especially since I have relatives (relatively evenly split by maternal or fraternal ones) or friends whose parents came from either the Middle-East (generally extroverted) or the former USSR (generally introverted), respectively.

    It can amusing to see social interactions from people from these two regions, as they're both more on the extreme side of the extroversion/introversion spectrum (Anglos or West Euros would be more towards the middle).
    I'd say Arabs and Jews/Israelis are still relatively much more extroverted still than Turks, Caucasians and Iranians, I wonder if Talha has anything much to say about it.
    The cynicism and manipulativeness of hyper-extroverted people certainly rings true as well, I've grown to distrust very extroverted people over the years, after you realise that such people can easily pour out their life story to people they hardly know, it's not a sign of 'sincerity', just emotional incontinence.


    In the past, AP was usually focusing more on the happy/optimistic side of his values. After February, you can see he includes more of the dark/gloomy side, probably because the world events. This is interesting, because there is such dark and light side in any of the values, but the dark and light side will be in different areas. There are some of the side of viewing the morality in terms of self-interest, social utility, which feels less easy to accept.
     
    On this gossipy note, it has been curious to watch your recent evolution from a poster akin to a much nicer version of ThuleanFriend to one approaching a more rationalist version of AaronB.

    Replies: @HeavilyMarbledSteak, @Dmitry

  560. @AP
    @RSDB

    The context of the discussion was another poster's belief that our Christian society is bad and ought to be dismantled and that people such as the homeless are like the early saints - more virtuous and Christlike because they reject the social system in which they live. It is better to be more like them and awful to want to help them to change.

    I don't think it is frivolous to challenge such a claim, to oppose this nihilistic post-modernism that denigrates virtues and applauds vice.

    So I challenged it by pointing out that our society is very different than the one in Christ's time - our prosperous and middle classes and our homeless "rebels" are very different from the non-poor and poor of Christ's time.*

    And I supported my claim by describing measurable behaviors.

    *In our Christian world the well off and middle classes came by their money through work and they give generously to the poor (privately, plus through taxes they have chosen through elected government) and often to the Church, whereas in Christ's time they came by their wealth through conquest, enslavement, or parasitic tax collection and viewed the poor as not being their concern.

    Replies: @RSDB

    Please follow my request to you, merely as a favor to me if that makes it easier. It is not the kind of thing that takes much time and I can’t think of any possible negative consequences, and it is probably better than to presume that the Church has nothing to say on a moral issue or that a question involving the state of other people’s souls is not a moral issue.

    [MORE]

    Perhaps you have done this already, and, if so, thank you.

    As far as what you are saying to other people, I think you are saying something that makes a lot of sense, as I said to Mikel earlier:

    I think I know what AP is getting at, which is that in cases of alcoholism etc. one must admit fault in order to improve rather than blaming society, even if “society” is partly to blame, and it’s not fair to the sufferer either to deny him agency or to suggest that it is better for him not to change at all.

    Probably you would prefer it put more strongly than that.

    It is only because I respect you considerably from what little I know of you, that I am making this suggestion at all. I wouldn’t make this recommendation to other parties involved who have also said some egregious things, probably far more egregious things in fact, because you’re a Christian who respects the “guardrails and structures of organized religion” and they aren’t. Although I think I might drop a note about calling you “unspiritual” which isn’t fair even on natural terms.

  561. @Barbarossa
    @AP

    Thanks for the kind words, but I don't think that I really did much for the guy. Hopefully he found a better way at some point. I feel a bit embarrassed by my recounting of the experience. Hopefully it didn't come across as grandstanding or fishing for praise.


    It seems to be spiritually dangerous for a lot of people to support the removal of what you describe as guardrails, and to promote behaviors that involve harming oneself and others. That is, to claim that sins are virtues and that virtues are hypocrisy or controlling behaviors.
     
    We can heartily agree on that.

    In the end, I guess I've made all the points I can on the matter and so will let it lie. Whatever the causes, hopefully we can be made of service to help the people in these situations that come across our paths.

    Replies: @RSDB

    Hopefully it didn’t come across as grandstanding or fishing for praise.

    No.

    In the end, I guess I’ve made all the points I can on the matter and so will let it lie. Whatever the causes, hopefully we can be made of service to help the people in these situations that come across our paths.

    Thank you.

    [MORE]

    By the way, I was reminded in this conversation of a book which brings together some of these strands we have been talking about– Catholicism, homelessness, aristocracy, saintliness, degradation.

    This is a novel called None Other Gods by the English priest Robert Hugh Benson.

    It is pretty slow going until the Major and Gertie appear but after that– well, I at least found it interesting, especially as it is at least partly an attempt to examine what holiness is. I think you might also find it so and maybe even AP as well, although both of you are busy people without a lot of time for novels.

    I would be surprised though (but pleasantly surprised) if our non-Christian readers found much to admire in it.

    Another novel that our non-Christian friends might find more congenial is Christ Recrucified by Nikos Kazantzakis, which is sometimes called in English The Greek Passion. Kazantzakis is a very forceful writer and his The Last Temptation of Christ ran into considerable opposition from both Catholic and Orthodox, but I never heard of that kind of controversy over Christ Recrucified.

    • Thanks: Barbarossa
  562. @Greasy William
    @AnonfromTN

    Yeltsin served from 1991 to 1999. In that time he successfully transitioned Russia from a Soviet dictatorship into a modern, growing country. The only good thing Putin ever did, land reform, which transformed Russia from a net food importer into an agricultural super power, was just a continuation of Yeltsin's privatization policy.

    Since Putin's renationalization of the oil industry, the industry has become over 30% less profitable than it was in private hands. Russian political culture has also become stagnant, there are no Russian TV shows mocking Putin the way that 90's Russian TV shows mocked Yeltsin. Other than Chechnya, Yeltsin became embroiled in no wars whereas Putin has gotten Russia involved in at least 3, the current one in Ukraine being extremely costly in men and material and has made Russia more dependent on it's long time rival, China. Surveys of Russian entrepreneurs indicate that government corruption increased dramatically during the first decade of Putin's reign.

    I don't dispute that 90's Russia was a bad place to live, or that Yeltsin was a buffoonish, power hungry, alcoholic who made many mistakes (the worst being his choice of successor). But I also recognize that by the time Yeltsin left he had set the stage for the Russian people to have the highest standard of living that they had ever experienced along with the highest level of personal freedom they had ever had.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @Wokechoke

    profits for who? I’m not sure if shoveling more money at Roman Abramovic was good for Russia.

  563. @Beckow
    @AP


    ...That is irrelevant because it is subject to personal delusions or wishful thinking.
     
    What? That is a non-answer, it means literally nothing because it can be said about anything.

    French may have thought that “liberating” Alsace-Lorraine and avenging the loss at Sedan was worth the cost. But objectively...
     
    Stop there: THEY WON. They still have Alsace-Lorraine and I doubt you would find more than a few dozen weirdos in France who would had preferred to lose WW1. You are really reaching now, France won WW1 - how is that a 'delusion'? The costs of all wars are high - the costs exist whether you win or lose, when you lose it is much worse. What are you hallucinating about?

    but will have lost...
     
    You are arguing that a 150 million country with 1/4 of world resources and a bright future because of that natural wealth has no right to decide what is an appropriate cost to maintain its security and protect its co-ethnics in Ukraine. Are you saying that Russia can't decide that using 1%, or even 5-10%, is worth it? But that's what all countries do, all wars are like that. The Ukie losses will be an order of magnitude higher, why dont you ask that question of them? Is 'being in Nato' and 'suppressing the Russian minority' worth destroying 20-30% of their country and about 100k dead Ukies by now?

    Rest of your comment is infantile and badly presented, I will just let you be embarrassed by it - no need to address a fool who knows nothing about this region. Suffice to say there is no heroism in dying for a losing cause. It is just stupid. You cheering on the stupid people is quite despicable. A fool on a hill over the horizon...

    Replies: @Wokechoke, @AP

    Given Russian Artillery numbers it’s highly likely that Ukies have lost 100,000 dead.

    • Replies: @Greasy William
    @Wokechoke

    When this war started, Anatoly predicted a walkover victory for Russia mainly due to Russia's artillery advantage. I do wonder why the US has not supplied Ukraine with more artillery.

    Replies: @Wokechoke

  564. @A123
    @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms

    There have been multiple different theories floated about shedding.

    Vaccine shedding of spikes creating a communicable virus seems to be a non-starter. Without the working backbone of the virus, spikes cannot do that.

    Virus shedding is part of normal virus spread mechanics. There does not seem to be a "smoking gun" problem here either. However, the fact that some individuals can continue to shed for as much as 2 months after recovery is decidedly odd. This suggests that uncured virus is hiding out somewhere where normal immune system activity cannot readily reach. Odd nasal pockets perhaps?
    ___

    Instinctively, I suspect part of the problem is simultaneously having mRNA vaxx for one strain and a different variant of the live virus. This combination could cause poor immune response to both. Or, possibly runaway scenarios as natural function tries to prioritize one over the other.

    There is consensus that the most comprehensive and long lasting immunity is catching WUHAN-19 while vaxx free. However, that is problematic for those of advanced age with multiple preexisting conditions. Letting people choose if they want, or do not want, the experimental jab is really the only sound moral & scientific option.

    Those that refused the jab do seem healthier. However, there may be some self selection making that observation less than statistically meaningful.

    PEACE 😇

    Replies: @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms

    Thanks.

    [MORE]

    My concern is what’s described in this article, seems that its still inconclusive,

    https://petermcculloughmd.substack.com/p/health-of-pure-bloods-threatened

    Fertig et al, have shown mRNA is circulatory in blood for at least two weeks with no reduction in concentration out to that time point.[iv] Likewise, Hanna et al, have found mRNA within breast milk.[v] Less data exist on Spike protein shedding but it is not a far stretch to understand this is well within the realm of reality. The pivotal questions are: 1) for how long is a recently vaccinated person at risk to shed on to others? 2) can shed mRNA be taken up by the recipient and begin to produce Spike protein just like vaccination? 3) can shed Spike protein cause disease as it does in the vaccinated (e.g. myocarditis, blood clots, etc.)?

    • Replies: @A123
    @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms

    The shedding transmission method they are talking about implies substantial exposure via fluid transfer. Could the experimental mRNA vaxx jump to another individual using an STD like mechanism? It is an interesting question. It would be prudent for pure bloods to avoid having sex with recently booster jabbed mud bloods.

    Without a full virus to drive replication, passing spike/mRNA via inhalation in a shared space is not something that I would be concerned about. Yes. One might breathe in a spike or two, however that is not enough to create an immune system reaction.

    PEACE 😇

    Replies: @Barbarossa

  565. @Emil Nikola Richard
    @Sher Singh

    Very sad. : (

    Every dogmatic materialist eventually gets to the brick wall. Most of them are preoccupied earning a salary and raising kids to hit it this soon but he is one of those fast track students.

    My minister recommends that he shut up and meditate for seven years but what is the chance of that?

    More likely he becomes a roommate with a tranny. But. Nobody knows what is going to happen.

    Replies: @216

    He’s what Roosh would have become without repentance.

  566. @AnonfromTN
    @Wokechoke

    That was my thinking a few months ago. Now I think that only Russian parts of late unlamented Ukraine will rebuilt, with the most Nazified parts deliberately left as a dump.

    Replies: @A123, @216, @Jazman

    • Replies: @AP
    @216

    Yes, in the extremely unlikely event that Ukraine is reduced to the parts that weren't part of the USSR in 1939, the remainder will probably catch up to its western neighbors fairly quickly, 10-20 years. It has a lot of IT and western light industry already, between the Carpathian gas fields and the nuclear plants it's energy-self-sufficient, and it will benefit from a lot of smart young people fleeing Russian rule in Kiev and Kharkiv but unwilling to move to a foreign country. It would probably get the reconstruction aid which wouldn't go to any Russian-occupied territory. Lviv would probably top a million people.

    Most likely though would be stalemate at the current line of contact (give or take some places like Bakhmut or even Kramatorsk), with a good chance of Ukraine taking back the corridor to Crimea but not fortified and urban Donbas.

  567. @QCIC
    @Mikhail

    I believe and may have written that the oligarch situation is worse in Ukraine, but I really have no means to establish this point. It seems possible the groups are similarly powerful in both countries. I think Russia was able to partially resist the oligarchs' destructive influence for two reasons. The first reason is she is a bigger and more prosperous country with more fat to survive the "winter of the oligarchs". The second is the Soviet Military converted into the Russian military and kept alive their traditions going back hundreds of years. While they are probably as corrupt as any big military, I suspect there was some genuine sense of honor and purpose among the military leaders which at least partially kept the oligarchs in check. I don't think anything comparable emerged in Ukraine. That military vacuum may be one reason the Ukrainian oligarchs were able to manipulate the Bandera myth so successfully.

    Replies: @Mikhail

    I think Russia was able to partially resist the oligarchs’ destructive influence for two reasons. The first reason is she is a bigger and more prosperous country with more fat to survive the “winter of the oligarchs”. The second is the Soviet Military converted into the Russian military and kept alive their traditions going back hundreds of years. While they are probably as corrupt as any big military, I suspect there was some genuine sense of honor and purpose among the military leaders which at least partially kept the oligarchs in check. I don’t think anything comparable emerged in Ukraine. That military vacuum may be one reason the Ukrainian oligarchs were able to manipulate the Bandera myth so successfully.

    On the matter of corruption in the military, the US outspends the next seven leading countries in defense spending combined. Russia has been ranking around fourth to fifth in defense spending. Five the the ten leading nations in that category are NATO members.

    Yet, look who is having the greater problems with arms supplies.

    • Replies: @A123
    @Mikhail


    Yet, look who is having the greater problems with arms supplies.
     
    I do not think that anyone is surprised that Germany, despite its proximity to Ukraine, is dead last in potential armor deliveries. They can barely keep their own plans flying. A couple years ago they were almost excluded from a NATO nuclear program due to lack of mission capable aircraft.
    ___

    On the U.S. side, Not-The-President Biden attempted a cynical political trick. Also, to no one's surprise. His administration was going to quietly transfer U.S. artillery shells stored in Israel to Ukraine and then misrepresent it as "Israel joining the fight against Russia". The deception was exposed before it even got under way. The Netanyahu-Putin friendship is now stronger than ever.

    One of the provisions to be inserted in House Appropriations for military acquisition is minimum stock levels to be kept in the U.S. before additional goods can be transferred out. Given the paucity of Javelin on the shelves, the Kiev regime may have to wait 24+ months before they see another delivery for this system.

    As I have pointed out to GW multiple times. America is not engaged in this conflict in any meaningful way. There has been no push to swap from peace economy to war economy. Could America gear up a new lend/lease? Yes. Will we? Of course not. There is no national interest or prestige at stake backing Kiev regime aggression. The Hunter/Burisma corruption will be used to justify walking away. Hopefully sooner rather than later.

    PEACE 😇

    Replies: @QCIC

  568. Gen. Pavel, Czechia’s newly elected president will be visiting
    Poland soon. He appears to be more open than his predecessor
    to the idea of the Intermarium. The latter was initially proposed
    by Gen. Józef Piłsudski of Poland after WW I. In its latest version
    it would consist of Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Czechia,
    Slovakia, Hungary, Austria, Slovenia, Croatia, Romania, and
    Bulgaria. It would involve a deep North-South integration of
    Central Europe, starting with highways and rail links. The huge
    airport that is being built in the center of the Warsaw-Łódź Duopolis
    (population ca. 6 million) will be one of the hubs of the Intermarium.
    The current population of the Intermarium is roughly 120 million.
    Western Ukraine would be a candidate to be included later.
    In its talks with Poland the U.S. declared to be very supportive
    of the idea.

    • Agree: LatW
  569. @HeavilyMarbledSteak
    @Sher Singh

    We can reject the schismatic monotheists, but then we become just like them, or we can with compassion and love guide them back into connection with their own ancient traditions, which are syncretic. Even ancient Judaism was an amalgam of ancient Near Eastern myths common to the whole region, Zoroastrianism, and later, Greek and Muslim elements. Maimonides for instance was a huge admirer of Aristotle, and used him heavily in developing his own philosophy, and 12th century Spanish Jewish theologians - who today still are part of the classic Orthodox cannon and widely read - consciously borrowed from the Sufis, and were not ashamed to admit it.

    Yet today my Orthodox Jewish friends get angry at me if I quote from any source outside Judaism and tell me Judaism has nothing to learn from anyone and in fact it was Judaism that taught all these foreign religions in ancient times :)

    It is mere petty chauvinism, and completely alien to the various classical ages of Judaism, and purely a corruption of modern times. Older Jewish thinkers would have laughed at this.

    It is the loss of dimension common to modern times. One of the most popular and beloved medieval Christian fables in Europe was actually about the Buddha and imported from Asia, the story of Barlaam and Josaphat :) So similar in outlook was Medieval Christianity and Buddhism in medieval times.

    Today, seminal thinkers like David Bentley Hart are working to restore this ancient ecumenism and fighting against the modern scientific spirit of "strict boundaries" - while a firm and committed Orthodox Christian, he is not afraid to admit he draws heavily on Asian traditions, and writes frequently on Hinduism and Buddhism.

    And let's not forget that this chauvinist rejectionism is today making serious headway in the Hinduism of India under Modi, and various Buddhist sects, most notably in Burma.

    It is a common modern problem we will all have to face and overcome.

    As for eating of the cow, let's not forget that mere survival is not the purpose of life, and as long as the cow is permitted to live a reasonable time and treated with compassion and respect (we should utterly reject factory farming), it may find it's deepest fulfillment in life by providing nourishment to other beings, in an interconnected world where all is Atman. Am I not after all just eating myself? :) After all, I hope to be eaten by other life forms after I die and am happy to - in Tibetan Buddhism, corpses are often fed to vultures stop cliffs. It's beautiful. Why should cows, especially heavily marbled ones, be exempt from this beautiful circle of life?

    As for the double edged sword, perhaps on Sikhism it wasn't meant literally but was more of a metaphor for the sword of spirituality?

    Don't sink into modern literalism...

    Replies: @Sher Singh, @Sher Singh

    Khalsa is Rajan – people bow to the King before he raises them from his feet for an embrace||

    ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫਤਹਿ

  570. Sher Singh says:
    @Greasy William
    @sudden death

    After the pandemic, the Canadian people have permanently lost the privilege of self determination

    Replies: @sudden death, @Sher Singh

    2. Even if we were to treat is as mere myths, it would seem to be rational that the Christian religion would be the right one or at least had the best odds of being so. If God were to incarnate, it would be in the center of the most populated part of the world, near East and West. A place like Palestine.
    And if it were true, then the religion would spread and become the dominant one on the world, as it did. And if it were true, it would inspire the best in people – mercy, love, compassion, and the best and most beautiful music, literature, etc. as it did. It would be carried to all ends of the Earth.* The possibility can’t be excluded (only if we do not accept the Resurrection as fact), but it doesn’t seem rational that if there were a God it would be the god of the Andaman islanders and all the others were false, or the Raven of some North American Indian tribe. If there were a God then most of the people would find Him inevitably, unless for reasons we cannot understand He only wanted to be known by Andaman islanders. But this is contraindicated by his incarnating in Palestine.

    Palestine is named after Phillistines to troll Jews – that’s the power of your Abrahamic cult

    you’ve gone from Jewish Nationalist to White Ruralite or Middle American Radical. You want assimilation & try to use conspiratory rhetoric to get it.

    2/3s of Canadians don’t vote Conservatives & the majority Conservative belt is primarily a fuck you to Liberals over 1970s oil policies. Canada is a place where the newer Euro immigrants will race mix only with blacks & the Old stock will mix with anything but blacks & have a fair bit of Native.

    It’s already Brazil & doesn’t need your blanquiamento.

    @Bashibazuk

    Genetics only confirmed this 10 years ago when we finally realized that modern Europeans are gentically closer to middle easterners than they are to European hunter gatherers. 45-95% of European ancestry is from a middle eastern farming population that arrived from Anatolia. This popuoation was genetically extremely close to Arabs and Iranians

    This was an interesting quote from upthread & the realization dawned on me how disingenuous the PIE larp is.

    Vedics have been redefined as Russians despite there being complete genetic continuity in Panjab between Vedic Aryans & modern population – even in religion.

    Meanwhile, that the majority of European DNA is non-Yamnaya is ignored & the whole continent is structured around this idea of being primordial conquerors. We’re majority bell beaker or corded ware you’ll say.

    Well, we’re Vedic.

    ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫਤਹਿ

  571. @Dmitry
    @LatW

    @Mikhail

    Sure, my sentence is incompetently written, a lot of Poland is occupied by the Russian empire, but I mean not integrated in the full way, then their 20th century is very different. The parts which "become Russian" are really Lithuania/Latvia. Vilnius or Riga are becoming seen as cities of the Russian empire.


    . Estonia was never fully Sovietized
     
    Estonians were the most educated nationality in the empire the 19th century already, with the lowest fertility rate (which matches education level).

    very sweet personality. The rest of Euros are total meanies in comparison (maybe with the exception of French and Italian), especially the sombre EEs
     
    I would have to disagree a lot. Irish people have very high ratio of extroverted people, for whatever reason. They also have the high agreeableness (unlike e.g. France). This doesn't mean they are more sweet.

    Extroverts are often more cynical and manipulative, compared to introverts. You know the higher executives in companies, usually seem very extroverted - they live to talk to you, it's not necessarily because they care about you.

    And I would say this is also in the culture level - for example, in cultures like Ireland or Italy, people are default very friendly and charming, but it doesn't have the same implication as in the introvert society.

    In the wider culture level. This is one of the things about very introvert people like Russians. In the short term, it more unfriendly, but inside introvert nationalities like Russians are still often more friendly.


    -

    In the individual level, it's also sometimes like this.My former girlfriend who was introverted. In some ways, they were unusually cold. But in other ways, more kindly than normal people. It's like we all have limited quantity of energy. People who are very extroverted are spreading it to unfamiliar people, but it's not necessarily very deep.


    blond like Finns (not sure which British those are mostly, maybe Scots
     
    I think it's just the stereotypical for the Southern English people. Light hair is not uncommon there. And the dark hair people are maybe more common in the celtic origins Ireland or Wales? Although I can't say I really remember the differences visually, although I remember a lot of the difference culturally.

    Maybe it's more common with the Southern English.

    If you type the list of the best famous English schools in the ruling part of England, type on YouTube where the those elite places where child times of Boris Johnson, Prince William and Rishi Sunak were studying. People of the Southern England look quite light.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=frJa8BakD4M.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-P0WF5r4BcA.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nHh0X8P_36c.


    she fully Irish or half-Irish half Hispanic. In the US, Irish and Italian mixes are quite common for religious reasons. And speaking of black hair dye,

     

    From little I can understand of the other "cause célèbre" of the Baldwins, she is a white woman from Boston, that is saying and changing appearance to look Spanish.

    Alec Baldwin’s daughter with Kim Basinger, Ireland Baldwin? I think she’s naturally a dark blonde with light eyes. I absolutely love Kim Basinger, from what I gather she’s English, Irish, Swedish… she doesn’t strike me as typically British though
     
    It's possible Alec Baldwin is not very Irish. Maybe he is only Irish to the third generation. You know what the real Irish people say about Irish Americans? They often call them fakes.

    whites still have an advantage in the dating market. White women might still have an advantage at work

     

    I'm sure if you were good looking Latino or Italian (let's say, adjusted for wealth) you would be above white people on average in the dating market.

    Probably the maximum advantage in America's dating, would be a wealthy Mexican or Brazilian heir.


    Russia, that’s kind of endearing and understandable in a large country. I’ve noticed that many Russians try to pretend they have “Frenchness”
     
    Most everyone wants to feel special and not like the rest of the cattle. Lucky people can find an exotic ancestor and boast about it, or it becomes a new hobby for them.

    The most common is probably boasting about the Cossack or Jewish ancestors. "I'm not descended from the ordinary peasants". But also it's common with many other of the nationalities.

    The problem about boasting about Jewish ancestors, is the Jewish world is very organized, and if you call yourself Jewish too much, the real Jews will consider you fake unless you match their specific criteria rules and show the documents. It also depends on which side of the family etc. But if you find your Tatar or Bashkir etc, ancestor, you can do fully Elizabeth Warren and they aren't organized enough to call you fake.

    You can be blond, with Russian family name, and talk about your special Tatar or Kalmyk soul and (I don't have experience but I assume) nobody from their organizations will ask for documents.

    Replies: @Yevardian

    I would have to disagree a lot. Irish people have very high ratio of extroverted people, for whatever reason. They also have the high agreeableness (unlike e.g. France). This doesn’t mean they are more sweet.

    Extroverts are often more cynical and manipulative, compared to introverts. You know the higher executives in companies, usually seem very extroverted – they live to talk to you, it’s not necessarily because they care about you.

    I’ve noticed cultural differences in this regard a lot since I was child. Especially since I have relatives (relatively evenly split by maternal or fraternal ones) or friends whose parents came from either the Middle-East (generally extroverted) or the former USSR (generally introverted), respectively.

    It can amusing to see social interactions from people from these two regions, as they’re both more on the extreme side of the extroversion/introversion spectrum (Anglos or West Euros would be more towards the middle).
    I’d say Arabs and Jews/Israelis are still relatively much more extroverted still than Turks, Caucasians and Iranians, I wonder if Talha has anything much to say about it.
    The cynicism and manipulativeness of hyper-extroverted people certainly rings true as well, I’ve grown to distrust very extroverted people over the years, after you realise that such people can easily pour out their life story to people they hardly know, it’s not a sign of ‘sincerity’, just emotional incontinence.

    In the past, AP was usually focusing more on the happy/optimistic side of his values. After February, you can see he includes more of the dark/gloomy side, probably because the world events. This is interesting, because there is such dark and light side in any of the values, but the dark and light side will be in different areas. There are some of the side of viewing the morality in terms of self-interest, social utility, which feels less easy to accept.

    On this gossipy note, it has been curious to watch your recent evolution from a poster akin to a much nicer version of ThuleanFriend to one approaching a more rationalist version of AaronB.

    • Replies: @HeavilyMarbledSteak
    @Yevardian

    Dmitry does not want to admit it, but he is on the Path. He has a natural instinct for spiritual things, strangely - few people are able to hear so clearly the radical call of Jesus and describe it so starkly. Most people simply cannot believe that Jesus actually said such radical things and that it must be "interpreted" differently.

    And he made some incisive comments on the other thread about how overly organized and well run cities (of the kind AP would favor) don't lead to creative and spiritual ferment, and correctly noted that the incredible artistic and spiritual ferment of 19th century Paris was a product of it's chaotic and free wheeling atmosphere.

    He understands "civilization" and order are at least partly in conflict with the Spirit - and this is a rare perception in modern times, where everyone blandly assumes there are no tradeoffs to order and civilization and increasing them is an unadulterated good, especially on the right. It takes some connection to spirit to see this.

    He's too young to have the courage yet to admit to it - it takes a bold leap for us modern people to take that step.

    , @Dmitry
    @Yevardian


    Middle-East (generally extroverted) or the former USSR (generally introverted)
     
    It feels more like a model if you add another variable like "agreeableness". So, for some of the extreme examples of the national cultural differences, if you used those two, it could look more plausible.

    Russians - high introverted, low agreeableness
    Japanese - high introverted, high agreeableness
    Irish - high extroverted, high agreeableness
    Arabs - high extroverted, low agreeableness


    extroverted people over the years, after you realise that such people can easily pour out their life story to people they hardly know, it’s not a sign of ‘sincerity’, just emotional incontinence.
     
    Well, often "emotional competence". But it's like "management tricks".

    your recent evolution from a poster akin to a much nicer version of ThuleanFriend to
     
    There is no "evolution". I just felt motivated to reply when someone is writing something unhealthy one-sided, to the other-side.

    AP was flooding with more materialist, depressing posts, to try to promote himself above other people (probably to boost his mood), so my posts try to push him a bit in the other direction, hoping he might read religious books (which I can see he doesn't know). But AaronB is always floating in the clouds, so I try write a reply from the ground (he probably should be reading less religious books).

    The negative side, is I never write my own view in the forum, but I'm always matching to the other's person of view. It's like my activity is to adjust the flavor of another's soup, but then my replies are not what I would write if it was my own point of view.


    ThuleanFriend

     

    Thulean was a good user. For the unromantic topics, where the reality is cynical, we need more materialist, anti-romantic, anti-religious conversation. If the post is about postsoviet politics, then even if you were trying to be cynical, you will be a hundred times less cynical than the postsoviet reality. And even if we talk about politics of developed countries, it's still a topic which is reduced to unromantic things.
  572. Last night real full blown airwar started gainst Iran for the first time ever, if I’m not mistaken – both drones and rocketry in many places, including a strike after which whole literal earthquake started, lol

    Presumably, it is new old PM Benjamin at work, now doing what Trump chickened out to do after initiating escalation with Suleimani first?

    https://t.me/m0sc0wcalling/18922

    • Replies: @A123
    @sudden death


    Last night real full blown airwar started gainst Iran
     
    LOL

    Israel has been preempting sociopath Khamenei's INF program with strikes against nuclear and missile programs. This fits neither.

    Much more likely -- Last night an explosion occurred at a conventional munitions plant. Incompetent mid manager calls it a "drone strike" to CYA.

    How are the mullahs doing beating women to death for daring to expose hair? If it is not a CYA, it could simply be a propaganda diversion.

    PEACE 😇

    , @Greasy William
    @sudden death


    Presumably, it is new old PM Benjamin at work
     
    1. That would be soooooo out of character for Netanyahu
    2. I don't believe the IDF would have gone along with it even if they were given the order
    3. If it were Israel, Iran would be screaming bloody murder, instead they are saying nothing
    4. I don't think there will be war because war doesn't serve anyone's interest right now
    , @A123
    @sudden death

    Here is the Ukie Maximalist propaganda: (1)


    a number of Ukrainian officials are hailing the attack, calling it 'revenge' against Iran's drone program, given the Russian military has been heavily reliant on Iran-made drones for attacks on Ukrainian energy infrastructure.
     
    Come on.... Do they actually think anyone will accept this?

    PEACE 😇
    __________

    (1) https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/suspected-israeli-drone-attack-rocks-iranian-military-site
    , @songbird
    @sudden death

    I'm amazed that Azerbaijan allowed the strike through their territory.

    Even if there is already antagonism between Azerbaijan and Iran, it amazes me that they thought they would get anything out of their relationship with Israel (presumably) that would be worth the hassle and risk.

    I'd suppose that the US must have given them some assurances of secret support or something.

    , @LatW
    @sudden death

    Apparently, some time ago, Israel took out a large supply of these Iranian drones somewhere in Syria. Hezbollah was likely going to sell those drones to Russia. Thus Russia would've had those drones readily available at the very start of the Russo-Ukrainian war. This may have saved a lot of Ukrainian civilian lives (of course, Israel did it for herself, not Ukraine, it's a situational thing that benefited Ukraine).

    Israel will never admit it if they did these current blasts (they don't have to). There are also rumors that the Iranian opposition (Mojahedin) could've done it.

  573. @Mikel
    @HeavilyMarbledSteak


    I am a huge fan of such syncretism and blurry boundaries 🙂 Perhaps we can add Atheism to the syncretist vision as well – it’s a big tent
     
    Well, do as you wish but I would recommend to put some boundaries on your syncretism, lest it becomes too confusing :) Perhaps there's some spiritual thing to learn even from religions that practice/d human sacrifices, who knows, but I'd personally leave them out of my own tent.

    And we should talk more about our wilderness forays really….
     
    A much more relaxing subject than the meaning of human existence, certainly. During the last months I've been very busy so I've settled in a routine of just visiting a few nearby mountain favorite places of mine. That's why I chose to live here after all, to have that luxury at hand when I can't go and explore new places. But that also means that I don't have a lot to tell, unless I enter in a description of the amazing transition from a high desert environment to an alpine one as you climb the slopes of the Wasatch range. That would bore everyone to death, I'm afraid.

    Utah winters are always long and often extend well into the spring months so another thing we've settled into is visiting some tropical place every winter for a change. I can't wait to fly to the tropics early in February. I would be happy enough to just travel a few hours down to the sunny Southwest desert a few times every winter and that's probably what I'll do when I retire but right now I need to consider my wife and son's wishes and who can complain about a week by a tropical beach during this extremely snowy winter? Besides, this coming April I'm planning to visit the Coachella Festival. I've never been there and am very curious to see what that gathering of hippies and freaks in the California desert feels like.

    When you have the time I'd find it interesting to know how the Sawtooth mountains in Idaho compare to the Wind River Range. My guess is that the Sawtooths must have a pure Rocky Mountain scenery with a Canadian flavor whereas the Wind Rivers, being at the end of the Rockies, where the mountains give way to the Wyoming plains, must be drier and a bit less forested, at least at lower elevations.

    Replies: @HeavilyMarbledSteak

    So I would say the Sawtooth area and the Wind River are both fairly dry and arid until you get deep into the mountains where the forests in both areas get lush. At least the eastern side of the Sawtooths – I didn’t go the Western side,

    The Sawtooths look very different though, more like the Tetons, rising sharply out of the plains into jagged peaks. And they look dramatic driving on the plains, whereas the Wind Rivers don’t really look like much till you hike into them or drive down the dirt roads.

    The Sawtooths are more accessible too – the Winds, you have to drive 20 miles down dirt roads to even start accessing the really good scenery, and it’s not until you hike 5-6 miles in that it gets draw-dropping.

    The Winds are still the prettier range in my view 🙂

    The tiny town of Stanley Idaho has amazing views of the Sawtooths. The whole area though is just a few hours from Boise, and in today’s explosion of interest in wilderness activities that means the area was pretty crowded. Still though with all the vastness it’s ok.

    I came in through Sun Valley, which is apparently where Hemingway used to love spending time in Idaho and where he wrote many of his fishing and mountain stories about – it is a deeply beautiful place, California-like brown hills gradually giving way to lush alpine valleys that look like Europe as you explore off the main road. There’s a special quality of sunlight there. Then as you ascent another ten miles you hit the Saws.

    I totally hear you about the tropics – I actually am lately developing a real appreciation for tropical scenery, the intense green, the lushness, the sunsets, the different feel in the air – it’s not just “summer”, but really a different atmosphere.

    I just wrapped up three weeks in Cambodia and Thailand – I was going to head on to India, but unfortunately something at work is calling me back early.

    I stayed for about a week on Koh Chang, which is one of the largest islands in the Gulf of Siam. There’s a single road circling the perimeter of the island where everyone lives, but the interior is all covered in these gorgeous dark green jungle mountains that look so enticing – but there’s no way to access them! No roads, paths, nothing. Just gorgeous, thick, impenetrable jungle.

    I was thinking if this was America or Europe there would be dozens of hiking trails ascending all the peaks, but here no one bothered. Mainland South East Asia can often look exhausted and over-farmed except for some pockets, and doesn’t always present tropical nature at its best unless you seek it out. But this island had a dark and mysterious interior that seemingly has never been farmed or logged, which I thought was very cool.

    And there were monkeys all over, just playing in the forest or the electrical wires over the road, which I thought was great 🙂

    • Replies: @HeavilyMarbledSteak
    @HeavilyMarbledSteak

    It's funny, a few weeks before I left the sweltering heat of Utah to go to Idaho, this video randomly appeared on my YouTube feed of some guy living in a van in a valley in Idaho, and I was salivating over the cool green valleys and pine forests lol and thinking I wished I knew where it was.

    Funny thing I ended up randomly camping in that exact same valley in Idaho by accident, it's one of the side roads off Sun Valley :)

    I put the YouTube vid below the more tag, in case you want to see the scenery - but I guess it's not too different from certain valleys in the Wasatch Range.



    https://youtu.be/erENFoCDkJs

    Replies: @A123

    , @Mikel
    @HeavilyMarbledSteak

    Thanks a lot for those descriptions. The pictures I've seen of the mountains in Central Idaho gave me the impression of a Canadian type of environment but it sounds like the West Coast ranges get the bulk of the humidity from the Pacific storms, leaving just the scraps for the rest of us in the West. But how productive scraps!

    I've actually crossed eastern Idaho on my way to Yellowstone and the landscapes there are definitely more nordic than in Utah but now I'm wondering what I should visit first, the more accessible Idaho Rockies or the remote Wind Rivers. I'll have to study Summitpost for an assessment of the mountain objectives in both areas.



    I was thinking if this was America or Europe there would be dozens of hiking trails ascending all the peaks, but here no one bothered.
     
    I wouldn't be so sure of that. I was surprised to see how wild much of the center of the small island of Oahu, the most populated one in Hawaii, is. They have built trails here and there, of course, but tropical jungles are unforgiving. They cover everything in no time. I didn't feel the desire to climb those misty, jungle-covered mountains though. Even if I didn't have an allergy to mosquitoes, bushwhacking your way through impenetrable vegetation is not quite the way I've learned to enjoy nature. When I'm in the tropics I guess I turn into the typical beach and sun loving tourist.

    I'll watch the video with the guy in the van tonight and let YT suggest what to follow it up with, they have me pretty well figured out already. When I was much younger the idea of living in a van or camper, or at least spending long times in it, was just fascinating. I remember discussing with my girlfriend what exact model we should buy but eventually life took a different turn. Now the idea is also more or less out of the question, even though I live in the best part of the world to put it in practice, but a good part of the fascination is still there.

    Replies: @HeavilyMarbledSteak

  574. @HeavilyMarbledSteak
    @Mikel

    So I would say the Sawtooth area and the Wind River are both fairly dry and arid until you get deep into the mountains where the forests in both areas get lush. At least the eastern side of the Sawtooths - I didn't go the Western side,

    The Sawtooths look very different though, more like the Tetons, rising sharply out of the plains into jagged peaks. And they look dramatic driving on the plains, whereas the Wind Rivers don't really look like much till you hike into them or drive down the dirt roads.

    The Sawtooths are more accessible too - the Winds, you have to drive 20 miles down dirt roads to even start accessing the really good scenery, and it's not until you hike 5-6 miles in that it gets draw-dropping.

    The Winds are still the prettier range in my view :)

    The tiny town of Stanley Idaho has amazing views of the Sawtooths. The whole area though is just a few hours from Boise, and in today's explosion of interest in wilderness activities that means the area was pretty crowded. Still though with all the vastness it's ok.

    I came in through Sun Valley, which is apparently where Hemingway used to love spending time in Idaho and where he wrote many of his fishing and mountain stories about - it is a deeply beautiful place, California-like brown hills gradually giving way to lush alpine valleys that look like Europe as you explore off the main road. There's a special quality of sunlight there. Then as you ascent another ten miles you hit the Saws.

    I totally hear you about the tropics - I actually am lately developing a real appreciation for tropical scenery, the intense green, the lushness, the sunsets, the different feel in the air - it's not just "summer", but really a different atmosphere.

    I just wrapped up three weeks in Cambodia and Thailand - I was going to head on to India, but unfortunately something at work is calling me back early.

    I stayed for about a week on Koh Chang, which is one of the largest islands in the Gulf of Siam. There's a single road circling the perimeter of the island where everyone lives, but the interior is all covered in these gorgeous dark green jungle mountains that look so enticing - but there's no way to access them! No roads, paths, nothing. Just gorgeous, thick, impenetrable jungle.

    I was thinking if this was America or Europe there would be dozens of hiking trails ascending all the peaks, but here no one bothered. Mainland South East Asia can often look exhausted and over-farmed except for some pockets, and doesn't always present tropical nature at its best unless you seek it out. But this island had a dark and mysterious interior that seemingly has never been farmed or logged, which I thought was very cool.

    And there were monkeys all over, just playing in the forest or the electrical wires over the road, which I thought was great :)

    Replies: @HeavilyMarbledSteak, @Mikel

    It’s funny, a few weeks before I left the sweltering heat of Utah to go to Idaho, this video randomly appeared on my YouTube feed of some guy living in a van in a valley in Idaho, and I was salivating over the cool green valleys and pine forests lol and thinking I wished I knew where it was.

    Funny thing I ended up randomly camping in that exact same valley in Idaho by accident, it’s one of the side roads off Sun Valley 🙂

    I put the YouTube vid below the more tag, in case you want to see the scenery – but I guess it’s not too different from certain valleys in the Wasatch Range.

    [MORE]

    • Replies: @A123
    @HeavilyMarbledSteak

    How about this nature video?

    I am gobsmacked.

    PEACE 😇

    https://youtu.be/dSBs5h_3J3I

    Replies: @Emil Nikola Richard, @HeavilyMarbledSteak

  575. @Yevardian
    @Dmitry


    I would have to disagree a lot. Irish people have very high ratio of extroverted people, for whatever reason. They also have the high agreeableness (unlike e.g. France). This doesn’t mean they are more sweet.

    Extroverts are often more cynical and manipulative, compared to introverts. You know the higher executives in companies, usually seem very extroverted – they live to talk to you, it’s not necessarily because they care about you.
     

    I've noticed cultural differences in this regard a lot since I was child. Especially since I have relatives (relatively evenly split by maternal or fraternal ones) or friends whose parents came from either the Middle-East (generally extroverted) or the former USSR (generally introverted), respectively.

    It can amusing to see social interactions from people from these two regions, as they're both more on the extreme side of the extroversion/introversion spectrum (Anglos or West Euros would be more towards the middle).
    I'd say Arabs and Jews/Israelis are still relatively much more extroverted still than Turks, Caucasians and Iranians, I wonder if Talha has anything much to say about it.
    The cynicism and manipulativeness of hyper-extroverted people certainly rings true as well, I've grown to distrust very extroverted people over the years, after you realise that such people can easily pour out their life story to people they hardly know, it's not a sign of 'sincerity', just emotional incontinence.


    In the past, AP was usually focusing more on the happy/optimistic side of his values. After February, you can see he includes more of the dark/gloomy side, probably because the world events. This is interesting, because there is such dark and light side in any of the values, but the dark and light side will be in different areas. There are some of the side of viewing the morality in terms of self-interest, social utility, which feels less easy to accept.
     
    On this gossipy note, it has been curious to watch your recent evolution from a poster akin to a much nicer version of ThuleanFriend to one approaching a more rationalist version of AaronB.

    Replies: @HeavilyMarbledSteak, @Dmitry

    Dmitry does not want to admit it, but he is on the Path. He has a natural instinct for spiritual things, strangely – few people are able to hear so clearly the radical call of Jesus and describe it so starkly. Most people simply cannot believe that Jesus actually said such radical things and that it must be “interpreted” differently.

    And he made some incisive comments on the other thread about how overly organized and well run cities (of the kind AP would favor) don’t lead to creative and spiritual ferment, and correctly noted that the incredible artistic and spiritual ferment of 19th century Paris was a product of it’s chaotic and free wheeling atmosphere.

    He understands “civilization” and order are at least partly in conflict with the Spirit – and this is a rare perception in modern times, where everyone blandly assumes there are no tradeoffs to order and civilization and increasing them is an unadulterated good, especially on the right. It takes some connection to spirit to see this.

    He’s too young to have the courage yet to admit to it – it takes a bold leap for us modern people to take that step.

  576. @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms
    @A123

    Thanks.

    My concern is what's described in this article, seems that its still inconclusive,

    https://petermcculloughmd.substack.com/p/health-of-pure-bloods-threatened


    Fertig et al, have shown mRNA is circulatory in blood for at least two weeks with no reduction in concentration out to that time point.[iv] Likewise, Hanna et al, have found mRNA within breast milk.[v] Less data exist on Spike protein shedding but it is not a far stretch to understand this is well within the realm of reality. The pivotal questions are: 1) for how long is a recently vaccinated person at risk to shed on to others? 2) can shed mRNA be taken up by the recipient and begin to produce Spike protein just like vaccination? 3) can shed Spike protein cause disease as it does in the vaccinated (e.g. myocarditis, blood clots, etc.)?
     

    Replies: @A123

    The shedding transmission method they are talking about implies substantial exposure via fluid transfer. Could the experimental mRNA vaxx jump to another individual using an STD like mechanism? It is an interesting question. It would be prudent for pure bloods to avoid having sex with recently booster jabbed mud bloods.

    Without a full virus to drive replication, passing spike/mRNA via inhalation in a shared space is not something that I would be concerned about. Yes. One might breathe in a spike or two, however that is not enough to create an immune system reaction.

    PEACE 😇

    • Replies: @Barbarossa
    @A123

    The "pure blood" thing is obnoxious and mirrors the same attitude as the Covid paranoiacs. You may say it's just to give them a taste of their own medicine (har har) but it's easy enough for a Larp like this to become entrenched.

    Replies: @A123

  577. @sudden death
    Last night real full blown airwar started gainst Iran for the first time ever, if I'm not mistaken - both drones and rocketry in many places, including a strike after which whole literal earthquake started, lol

    Presumably, it is new old PM Benjamin at work, now doing what Trump chickened out to do after initiating escalation with Suleimani first?

    https://t.me/m0sc0wcalling/18922

    Replies: @A123, @Greasy William, @A123, @songbird, @LatW

    Last night real full blown airwar started gainst Iran

    LOL

    Israel has been preempting sociopath Khamenei’s INF program with strikes against nuclear and missile programs. This fits neither.

    Much more likely — Last night an explosion occurred at a conventional munitions plant. Incompetent mid manager calls it a “drone strike” to CYA.

    How are the mullahs doing beating women to death for daring to expose hair? If it is not a CYA, it could simply be a propaganda diversion.

    PEACE 😇

  578. @sudden death
    Last night real full blown airwar started gainst Iran for the first time ever, if I'm not mistaken - both drones and rocketry in many places, including a strike after which whole literal earthquake started, lol

    Presumably, it is new old PM Benjamin at work, now doing what Trump chickened out to do after initiating escalation with Suleimani first?

    https://t.me/m0sc0wcalling/18922

    Replies: @A123, @Greasy William, @A123, @songbird, @LatW

    Presumably, it is new old PM Benjamin at work

    1. That would be soooooo out of character for Netanyahu
    2. I don’t believe the IDF would have gone along with it even if they were given the order
    3. If it were Israel, Iran would be screaming bloody murder, instead they are saying nothing
    4. I don’t think there will be war because war doesn’t serve anyone’s interest right now

  579. @Mikhail
    @QCIC


    I think Russia was able to partially resist the oligarchs’ destructive influence for two reasons. The first reason is she is a bigger and more prosperous country with more fat to survive the “winter of the oligarchs”. The second is the Soviet Military converted into the Russian military and kept alive their traditions going back hundreds of years. While they are probably as corrupt as any big military, I suspect there was some genuine sense of honor and purpose among the military leaders which at least partially kept the oligarchs in check. I don’t think anything comparable emerged in Ukraine. That military vacuum may be one reason the Ukrainian oligarchs were able to manipulate the Bandera myth so successfully.
     
    On the matter of corruption in the military, the US outspends the next seven leading countries in defense spending combined. Russia has been ranking around fourth to fifth in defense spending. Five the the ten leading nations in that category are NATO members.

    Yet, look who is having the greater problems with arms supplies.

    Replies: @A123

    Yet, look who is having the greater problems with arms supplies.

    I do not think that anyone is surprised that Germany, despite its proximity to Ukraine, is dead last in potential armor deliveries. They can barely keep their own plans flying. A couple years ago they were almost excluded from a NATO nuclear program due to lack of mission capable aircraft.
    ___

    On the U.S. side, Not-The-President Biden attempted a cynical political trick. Also, to no one’s surprise. His administration was going to quietly transfer U.S. artillery shells stored in Israel to Ukraine and then misrepresent it as “Israel joining the fight against Russia”. The deception was exposed before it even got under way. The Netanyahu-Putin friendship is now stronger than ever.

    One of the provisions to be inserted in House Appropriations for military acquisition is minimum stock levels to be kept in the U.S. before additional goods can be transferred out. Given the paucity of Javelin on the shelves, the Kiev regime may have to wait 24+ months before they see another delivery for this system.

    As I have pointed out to GW multiple times. America is not engaged in this conflict in any meaningful way. There has been no push to swap from peace economy to war economy. Could America gear up a new lend/lease? Yes. Will we? Of course not. There is no national interest or prestige at stake backing Kiev regime aggression. The Hunter/Burisma corruption will be used to justify walking away. Hopefully sooner rather than later.

    PEACE 😇

    • Replies: @QCIC
    @A123

    "America is not engaged in this conflict" other than having been the prime mover working on many levels to cause it!

    I suspect the amount of American manpower assistance on the ground is more than you suggest. Once the propaganda was under control many Americans would willingly go over to participate in something like this. Generals in all branches of the military would be eager to have troops get the direct experience in this type of fighting.

    Replies: @A123

  580. @Wokechoke
    @Beckow

    Given Russian Artillery numbers it's highly likely that Ukies have lost 100,000 dead.

    Replies: @Greasy William

    When this war started, Anatoly predicted a walkover victory for Russia mainly due to Russia’s artillery advantage. I do wonder why the US has not supplied Ukraine with more artillery.

    • Replies: @Wokechoke
    @Greasy William

    if it's the case that Ukraine has lost 100,000 dead and missing and Russia has 20,000 dead and missing, it has been a walk over.

  581. @Greasy William
    @Wokechoke

    When this war started, Anatoly predicted a walkover victory for Russia mainly due to Russia's artillery advantage. I do wonder why the US has not supplied Ukraine with more artillery.

    Replies: @Wokechoke

    if it’s the case that Ukraine has lost 100,000 dead and missing and Russia has 20,000 dead and missing, it has been a walk over.

    • Agree: LondonBob
  582. @HeavilyMarbledSteak
    Onward and forward to other matters -

    I read a very enjoyable book recently, called The Wilder Shores of Love by Lesley Blanch, apparently a noted English "feminist" and bohemian of the early 20th century.

    It details the lives of several remarkable, highly intelligent, and strong-willed European women who found adventure, love, and spiritual revitalization in the Muslim Near East of the 19th century.

    Even though Lesley is described as a feminist, I put it in quotation marks because her feminism is a far cry from the kind of bitter anti-male resentment and hatred of genuine femininity that the feminist movement has declined into recently.

    Leslie, and the women she describes, all clearly loved men and genuine, benevolent masculinity (not the kind of toxic macho posturing that represents an equivalent decline in the male sphere and is a feature of modern nihilism).

    All the men here, Western and Eastern, are strong and capable, but gentle, kind, honorable, respectful of women, and noble. The women are "feminist" heros because they did not live conventional lives, but were remarkably bold and took to a life of adventure in unstable and primitive parts of the world, and acquitted themselves with verve and finesse in dangerous situations.

    The first chapter focuses on Isabella Burton, the wife of Sir Captain Richard Burton, the great Victorian explorer, adventurer, writer, and translator - Burton is a figure of perennial fascination to me, and I was enthralled by his account of his journey to Mecca disguised as a Muslim.

    Photographs reveal Richard Burton to have one of the most striking and fascinating faces of any human being we have records of.

    Later chapters detail liasons with Arab chieftans - one of the great beauties of her time, Jane Digby, later in life married an Arab chief and lived in nomadic encampments and had all sorts of fascinating adventures in the desert, and was a regular visitor to the Burtons when he was British consul in Damascus. Her Arab chieftain husband was a benevolent and chivalrous man who treated her with respect and reverence, and Digby was loved by her adopted tribe - her husband was part of the old honorable Arab culture that was rapidly vanishing even then (a fact noted sadly by Digby and Burton), and today is replaced by a sullen and resentful Arab world. For her part, Digby was quite pleased to treat her husband with the outward forms of submissiveness and respect demanded by Oriental custom of the time - even while being quite bold and independent. It seems to have been an amicable match that made them both happy.

    Another fascinating figure is Isabelle Eberhardt, a Russian-Swiss woman who disguised herself as a man and wandered the North African desert, exploring it's remote reaches and dusty, ruined towns, becoming a trusted confidant and valued conversationalist of several high-ranking French colonial officials, and forming a long-lasting bond of affection with a Touareg.

    Eberhardt was also something of a mystic and a spiritual seeker, and wrote a fascinating Desert Diary full of arresting sketches of desert life and her own musings on the spiritual dimension of the desert - well worth reading in it's own right.

    Perhaps my least favorite chapter - although that's just because I always prefer reading about adventures in the desert :) - was about a French woman who was captured by pirates and sold into the harem of the Ottoman court, where she rose to a position of prominence and influence, which she wielded in several critical moments to the advantage of her native France.

    I realize this is an alt-right site (but is it really?), and some here may find tales of European women liasing with Muslims and Arabs distasteful, but it's important to remember this was a time of total European dominance of the region and with non of the sordid issues surrounding Muslim immigration into Europe today - and these women did so on their own terms and without engaging in any forms of self-abasement or loss of self-respect, and the Arabs and Muslims for their part behaved with benevolence and nobility. It would be wrongheaded to see those distant times through the lens of modern race relations.

    I shall leave off with this beautiful quote from the introduction, calculated to infuriate the APs of the world -

    Perhaps, too, this very passivity offered something which was vanishing from the West, something to which they were all subconsciously drawn. Repose : the Eastern climate of contemplation, of Kif, of nothingness, brought to its quintessential state of voluptuous, animal stillness was a state wholly alien to the West. Even leisure, an entirely different thing, was vanishing. From afar, a mighty whirring could be heard approaching: it was the roar and clatter of a million mechanical devices gaining momentum, forming an overwhelming uproar of ingenuity and efficiency: speed and action for their own sake. This onslaught was to hammer at Western mankind until there were nerves, but no senses left.

    Kif, contemplation, gilded opium pills and the drowsy peace of senses lulled by satiety ... these things the East still offered, and some, if not all of my subjects, were, I believe, aware of this. In the East, there was still 'world enough and time' to be women .
     

    Replies: @Ivashka the fool, @RSDB

    Not long ago I read Far to Seek by British novelist Maud Diver. She is very enthusiastic about the old culture of India and is often quoting Rabindranath Tagore.

    But when she comes to the famous Amritsar Massacre she describes the whole thing by basically saying “Strong measures were taken”, despite what Tagore felt about it. It is as if she loves the old India so much she is actually offended by the possibility of a new India which will take on some Western culture in order to free itself from Western rule.

    I shall leave off with this beautiful quote from the introduction, calculated to infuriate the APs of the world –

    There’s something of a (faint) parallel here with Christianity, surely, and a difference from leisure as commonly interpreted?

    In leisure as commonly interpreted, your time is your own. But in this case, the woman’s time belongs ultimately to her husband, and in Christianity it belongs to God.

    [MORE]

    (@ other comment)

    Also, with regard to viewing someone as likely especially unspiritual due to a few blog posts, I can’t for the life of me see that it is all that different from viewing someone as likely especially sinful due to belonging to a lower social stratum.

    For instance, if for some unintelligible reason I wanted to produce an estimate of Mikel’s spirituality, and I did this from some of his religion posts, I would probably rate him as quite unspiritual. But if I then read some of his nature posts, I would get a completely different picture. And even all these posts taken together represent only a small portion of the reality.

    NB. Since it’s been brought up, if anyone here is interested in the sociological or anthropological view of drug addiction, he could do worse than to check out Merrill Singer, particularly Drugging the Poor and The Social Value of Drug Addicts: Uses of the Useless. He has, of course, a relevant political bias, but everyone has one on this topic.

    • Replies: @HeavilyMarbledSteak
    @RSDB

    I'm with Maud Diver on that one - I like the old Asia and wish it hadn't taken on so much of the West. And I fear for India's soul under Modi and that now she is reaching for great power status - that's always the most dangerous time for a country's soul.

    Thankfully, much of old Asia still survives, perhaps shockingly so, at least in the small back alleys and side streets and rural lanes and villages.

    I wouldn't say the women in that book their time belonged to their husbands - they were extremely devoted to their husbands and willingly served their interests, but the relationships were remarkably equal and their husbands were just as devoted to them.

    But yes, I'd agree with you that is certainly a parallel to Christianity, and that kind of "repose" one finds in Heschasm. It comes from a world in which mere activity for it's own sake was not the most important thing and being was richer than building.

    As for assessing someone's spirituality, surely there's no harm in giving ones impressions provided one doesn't do it too humorlessly. But in the case if AP, I think I have quite enough evidence to come up with a very reasonable estimate, although one should always keep an open mind. But of course, I am only characterizing his remarks and not the man.

    The problem with judging the poor as sinful is in the scale of values - we are told quite clearly that it is wealth and the desire for wealth that is bad, and not poverty :) - and not in the making of a judgement.

    I think it's reasonable to judge the statements or actions of a man and assess them according to a scale of values, but condemning or moralizing about people is what is meant by judge not. You can see someone say or do something bad but refrain from condemning that person or judging his entire moral worth.

    You can say, this person commits more bad acts than the other, as a simple fact - but refrain from making any comment on his moral worth as you cannot know his unique circumstances, personality, and state of mind. Considering those, he may be a better man than you.

    That's why the saying arose But for the grace of God...

    Replies: @RSDB

  583. @sudden death
    Last night real full blown airwar started gainst Iran for the first time ever, if I'm not mistaken - both drones and rocketry in many places, including a strike after which whole literal earthquake started, lol

    Presumably, it is new old PM Benjamin at work, now doing what Trump chickened out to do after initiating escalation with Suleimani first?

    https://t.me/m0sc0wcalling/18922

    Replies: @A123, @Greasy William, @A123, @songbird, @LatW

    Here is the Ukie Maximalist propaganda: (1)

    a number of Ukrainian officials are hailing the attack, calling it ‘revenge’ against Iran’s drone program, given the Russian military has been heavily reliant on Iran-made drones for attacks on Ukrainian energy infrastructure.

    Come on…. Do they actually think anyone will accept this?

    PEACE 😇
    __________

    (1) https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/suspected-israeli-drone-attack-rocks-iranian-military-site

  584. As I’ve repeatedly emphasized, I don’t have the military expertise to reasonably analyze the current state of the Russia-Ukraine war, so I instead focus on the source analysis of those who probably do.

    Here’s the latest half-hour interview of Col. Macgregor, for those who haven’t already seen it:

    Macgregor is obviously a military expert and he seems awfully, awfully, awfully confident in the claims he is making.

    Admittedly, it’s been an unusually warm winter in the region so the ground hasn’t frozen, delaying the large-scale military attack he’d earlier predicted would take place once it did.

    But it seems to me that if he had the slightest doubts about his broader public positions and feared that they might be wrong and severely damage his credibility, he’d have dropped out of sight weeks ago and stopped doing interviews or writing articles. Instead, he’s kept up a blistering pace, and each week he seems more confident than in the previous one.

    He now claims that the Ukrainian military has probably lost over 150K dead, while Russian losses are likely in the 17K to 22K range. The facts will eventually come out, so these are very bold claims for him to make if he weren’t fully convinced that they were solid.

    Macgregor is a senior military expert with strong connections across NATO and the Pentagon. So I’d say his behavior leaves only two likely possibilities: (A) he’s basically correct or (B) he’s gone insane.

    • Replies: @A123
    @Ron Unz


    Macgregor is a senior military expert with strong connections across NATO and the Pentagon. So I’d say his behavior leaves only two likely possibilities: (A) he’s basically correct or (B) he’s gone insane.
     
    Macgregor openly admits he does not know what "the people behind Biden" are thinking. So there is -- (C) He grasps the military and foreign policy elements, but is badly misreading U.S. civilian politics.
    ___

    Did Macgregor explain how Not-The-President Biden will obtain:

    • A full Declaration of War?
    • Or, the figleaf of an Authorization for Use of Military Force [AUMF]?
    • Plus, the budget to fight?

    The GOP was already gearing up to make Ukraine spending an issue during the November lame duck session: (1)

    Joe Biden is requesting another $37+ billion in Ukraine aid — with ZERO accountability. In July, I introduced Amdt. 1109 to the NDAA to establish an Inspector General for Ukrainian Military Aid to oversee these funds. Democrats BLOCKED it. Accountability is coming in January,” Rep. Andrew Clyde (R-GA) tweeted.
     
    This has been stoked by the recent Ukie corruption scandal. The push against funding Kiev regime aggression is coming back stronger in future House Appropriations. Having a proper audit that denies The Big Guy his 10% will immediately discourage the part of his entourage that exists for the filthy lucre of mammon.

    Macgregor is correct that the current U.S. economy cannot support a huge surge in war material production. I did not year him say anything about how America will shift to a war economy to support the Kiev regime.

    Would Not-The-President Biden intentionally & openly make American voters poorer in 2024?
    ___

    Much of what Macgregor states is sound, but his worst case scenario (e.g. the 101st will wind up in Ukraine) is not going to happen.

    This is not the 1940's where executive power can unilaterally start a war. Back then the two parties would have reflexively come together. Now, Main Street Republicans reflexively loathe Elite Democrats. Macgregor does not see the fact that "coming together" is a domestic impossibility. The competition among civilian politicians is for "Who gets to hold the saw?" when cutting off the plank where Not-The-President Biden stands.

    MAGA is anti-war. And, Trump has already started his MAGA campaign. The domestic political cycle is now vicious and perpetual due to non-stop streaming media. Those of us paying attention grasp that NeoConDemocrats are the new "War Party". However, I do not see how the pro-war DNC can openly declare that to the masses leading up to the next Presidential election.

    PEACE 😇
    __________

    (1) https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2022/11/17/thomas-massie-on-bidens-38b-ukraine-aid-request-demand-a-halt-demand-an-audit-demand-an-inspector-general/
    , @sudden death
    @Ron Unz


    (A) he’s basically correct or (B) he’s gone insane.
     
    (C) he's getting paid.

    Replies: @AP, @LondonBob, @Mikel

    , @Emil Nikola Richard
    @Ron Unz

    He is trying to make logical inferences from incomplete data with obsolete logic.

    There is a recently translated of Leibniz first work on law published here:

    https://www.amazon.com/Learning-Teaching-Jurisprudence-According-Principles/dp/1616195479

    In the introduction the translator observes the necessity of a rigorous logic of probability argued in unsurpassed fashion by Leibniz, in the seventeenth century, and laments that no such logic has yet been constructed. In the postmodern era Robin Hanson and Elizer Yudkowsky have tried to remedy this but most people can see their efforts are woeful and inadequate.

    The only thing to do is wait and see and not make repetitive idiotic youtubes broadcasting one's ignorance. : )

    , @Beckow
    @Ron Unz

    McGregor is not insane and is mostly correct: his connections use him to voice what they can't say. What he says is common sense: a bigger force fighting in its own region against a weaker army that 100% depends on foreign support. Any AI simulation what suggest that Russia will grind Kiev down and win. Maybe putting that idea out there is not such a bad idea. McGregor looks like he is guided and permitted to say what he does.

    There has to be a way out with Nato saving some face. If they casually walk away as in the past, the emotional build-up and the rhetorical escalation will be very destabilizing - at a minimum for the people who are fronting it. It is a dilemma because it requires Russia's acquiescence. Maybe triggering a 'new big event' would provide the cover.

    Basically the Nato planners made the error of not taking into account what their target can do: because when Russia is in sight, so are they. Ukies walked into it like a naive girl flying to be to a 'waitress in Dubai', way too late for them. But Nato needs a way out. Maybe Poland can invade Kaliningrad, they won't get the "Intermarium" without it...

    Replies: @Leaves No Shadow, @Wokechoke

    , @Leaves No Shadow
    @Ron Unz


    So I’d say his behavior leaves only two likely possibilities: (A) he’s basically correct or (B) he’s gone insane.
     
    If you were him, how would you work out which one of these two options you were?
  585. @A123
    @Mikhail


    Yet, look who is having the greater problems with arms supplies.
     
    I do not think that anyone is surprised that Germany, despite its proximity to Ukraine, is dead last in potential armor deliveries. They can barely keep their own plans flying. A couple years ago they were almost excluded from a NATO nuclear program due to lack of mission capable aircraft.
    ___

    On the U.S. side, Not-The-President Biden attempted a cynical political trick. Also, to no one's surprise. His administration was going to quietly transfer U.S. artillery shells stored in Israel to Ukraine and then misrepresent it as "Israel joining the fight against Russia". The deception was exposed before it even got under way. The Netanyahu-Putin friendship is now stronger than ever.

    One of the provisions to be inserted in House Appropriations for military acquisition is minimum stock levels to be kept in the U.S. before additional goods can be transferred out. Given the paucity of Javelin on the shelves, the Kiev regime may have to wait 24+ months before they see another delivery for this system.

    As I have pointed out to GW multiple times. America is not engaged in this conflict in any meaningful way. There has been no push to swap from peace economy to war economy. Could America gear up a new lend/lease? Yes. Will we? Of course not. There is no national interest or prestige at stake backing Kiev regime aggression. The Hunter/Burisma corruption will be used to justify walking away. Hopefully sooner rather than later.

    PEACE 😇

    Replies: @QCIC

    “America is not engaged in this conflict” other than having been the prime mover working on many levels to cause it!

    I suspect the amount of American manpower assistance on the ground is more than you suggest. Once the propaganda was under control many Americans would willingly go over to participate in something like this. Generals in all branches of the military would be eager to have troops get the direct experience in this type of fighting.

    • Replies: @A123
    @QCIC



    America is not engaged in this conflict in any meaningful way. There has been no push to swap from peace economy to war economy.
     
    “America is not engaged in this conflict” other than...
     
    You entirely missed my point. Let me spell it out:

    • A war economy is needed for engagement
    • There is no war economy
    • Therefore, there is exceedingly limited American engagement

    America can easily walk away at any time. Neither national interest nor prestige is at stake.

    ...having been the prime mover working on many levels to cause it!
     
    The European WEF has been the prime mover to cause this. Sadly some Elite U.S. Leftoids, like Nuland, were corrupted by European values. However, those nutters have nothing to do with Main Street America.

    I suspect the amount of American manpower assistance on the ground is more than you suggest.
     
    You appear to badly over estimate the numbers of American boots on the ground. And, how quickly "trainers" and intelligence teams can be extracted.

    Mercenary contractors are expendable. Sell swords always are.

    Generals in all branches of the military would be eager to have troops get the direct experience in this type of fighting.
     
    Generals hate defeat.

    • Expending Ukrainian lives to field test their fancy new toys is grim, but a somewhat believable accusation.
    • Volunteering to lose their forces out on the end of an incredibly tenuous supply chain is not plausible.

    Afghanistan showed how hard it is to support troops over long distances. Given the importance of the Black Sea, any American force would have to heavily rely on Turkey Türkiye for logistics.

    If you were a General, would you stake the lives of your troops on Erdogan's reliability as a war partner?

    PEACE 😇

    Replies: @QCIC

  586. @AP
    @Mikel


    "The idea that there is nothing in the universe other than that which can be systematically observed or measured by evolved apes and the instruments they have created is itself a belief, one that seems to be more fantastic and irrational than belief in God."

    I agree with the first part of this sentence and I have myself said on this blog in the past that that is an irrational belief. But the last part of the sentence is more problematic. That our brains are unable to fully understand the universe and anything that may lie beyond does not logically lead to embracing the myths that our ancestors used as an explanation when they were even more ignorant than us.
     
    They were more ignorant than us with respect to the natural world and how it works, but that's not the main issue here, given that we accept that what we consider to be the natural world (i.e., that which is systematically observable and measurable to apes and the technology they have created) is necessarily limited anyways. If anything, our ancestors' limitation made them be less confident in their technological and observational prowess and and therefore less prone to the irrational Scientism belief. Of course, this advantage was balanced out by their propensity to falsely assign divine explanations to natural phenomena. But if we set aside the latter, then the ancients (or even those of the earlier this century) can have much to teach us.

    So if we admit that Scientism is irrational, the door opens to the likelihood that the universe contains much that we are incapable of understanding or that will never fit into our naturalistic framework. This certainly doesn't prove that God exists but it makes it extremely unlikely that He couldn't exist and irrational to preclude His existence.

    And because what is "natural" (that which is systematically observable and measurable to apes and the technology they have created) can't be everything, then supernatural is possible, also.

    And so there are rare and weird events such as miracles, the Resurrection, demonic possession, near death experiences, etc. Barbarossa may have hinted at them. A humble person comfortable with the idea of limits to scientific understanding isn't disturbed by the prospect of such things existing (at least, if they are not negative).

    I haven't experienced any of this stuff myself, and have even debunked an example (my kids were once frightened by weird forceful knocking on a second floor bedroom wall at an old cabin in the woods in the Appalachians we rented - I staked it out and found it was a woodpecker bird). But I have heard credible accounts in life , from a priest who witnessed an exorcism, from people in Moscow who had heard footsteps, from a physician and former director of a neurological hospital in Iraq who had tried to do research on Near Death Experiences (as systematic science, not very useful as one would expect, but the rare incidents were real).

    Besides, how rational is it to embrace precisely the myths of your cultural tradition when, as AnonfromTN says, there are so many other contradictory myths to choose from?
     
    I'm not given much to theological or philosophical speculation, but my admittedly primitive take is this:

    1. It's not fully myths. The New Testament is basically eyewitness testimony. Different people did witness those events, and believed so strongly in what they saw that they were willing to be martyred for it in different places. As in all witness cases, they differed or were inconsistent on details but not on the events.

    2. Even if we were to treat is as mere myths, it would seem to be rational that the Christian religion would be the right one or at least had the best odds of being so. If God were to incarnate, it would be in the center of the most populated part of the world, near East and West. A place like Palestine.
    And if it were true, then the religion would spread and become the dominant one on the world, as it did. And if it were true, it would inspire the best in people - mercy, love, compassion, and the best and most beautiful music, literature, etc. as it did. It would be carried to all ends of the Earth.* The possibility can't be excluded (only if we do not accept the Resurrection as fact), but it doesn't seem rational that if there were a God it would be the god of the Andaman islanders and all the others were false, or the Raven of some North American Indian tribe. If there were a God then most of the people would find Him inevitably, unless for reasons we cannot understand He only wanted to be known by Andaman islanders. But this is contraindicated by his incarnating in Palestine.

    * Islam is the only reasonable contender here. But that may be because it's a step-child to Christianity, close enough to also enjoy considerable success.

    Replies: @Mikel

    If anything, our ancestors’ limitation made them be less confident in their technological and observational prowess and and therefore less prone to the irrational Scientism belief.

    That is a fair point. Not being subject to the overwhelming stream of rational knowledge that science gives us, perhaps they had better intuitions about the deep meaning of life. But I am skeptical. The farther one goes in time the more primitive and elementary religions appear. Crude pantheism and practices like human sacrifices to the gods gave way to much more elaborate spirituality, especially in Asia and the Middle East. This suggests that ignorance in general doesn’t lead to better forms of spirituality. Likewise, primitive societies in the modern times don’t look too appealing, although some videos I’ve seen of hunter-gatherers appeared to show happy individuals, much more content with their lives than the average First Worlder.

    If God were to incarnate, it would be in the center of the most populated part of the world, near East and West. A place like Palestine.

    We must have discussed this before. If God’s goal really was to maximize the reach of his message and minimize sin in the world, He would have just revealed Himself to every human on the planet, instead of sending an emissary that even most of the people around him failed to find convincing and many more never even heard of for centuries. By not doing the obvious, God just condemned many millions of humans to Hell and perpetuated all the sins he wanted to prevent in a totally unnecessary way.

    • Replies: @AP
    @Mikel


    "if anything, our ancestors’ limitation made them be less confident in their technological and observational prowess and and therefore less prone to the irrational Scientism belief."

    That is a fair point. Not being subject to the overwhelming stream of rational knowledge that science gives us, perhaps they had better intuitions about the deep meaning of life.
     
    It's more like, not being distracted by the dazzling ability to do stuff in the material world and the material things that science provides.

    But I am skeptical. The farther one goes in time the more primitive and elementary religions appear.
     
    The Greek, Hindu, Buddhist, Christian, Islamic thought did not seem to be be particularly primitive. If anything, modern thinkers are rather shallow compared to the earlier ones. The poster child of modern atheism, Richard Dawkins, is on the level of a university undergraduate. But the religious thinkers can be ignored by the masses who are more interested in physical wonders.

    "If God were to incarnate, it would be in the center of the most populated part of the world, near East and West. A place like Palestine."

    We must have discussed this before. If God’s goal really was to maximize the reach of his message and minimize sin in the world, He would have just revealed Himself to every human on the planet, instead of sending an emissary that even most of the people around him failed to find convincing and many more never even heard of for centuries
     
    He did not want to interfere with humans' will, so He provided the means to maximum access but without forcing the matter. The miracles He performed seem to have had a primarily didactic purpose.

    By not doing the obvious, God just condemned many millions of humans to Hell and perpetuated all the sins he wanted to prevent in a totally unnecessary way.
     
    IIRC Christ liberated those who never had access to Him so people not yet exposed to His light are not necessarily condemned. For the others, it's a freely made choice.

    Replies: @Sher Singh, @Mikel

  587. @sudden death
    Last night real full blown airwar started gainst Iran for the first time ever, if I'm not mistaken - both drones and rocketry in many places, including a strike after which whole literal earthquake started, lol

    Presumably, it is new old PM Benjamin at work, now doing what Trump chickened out to do after initiating escalation with Suleimani first?

    https://t.me/m0sc0wcalling/18922

    Replies: @A123, @Greasy William, @A123, @songbird, @LatW

    I’m amazed that Azerbaijan allowed the strike through their territory.

    Even if there is already antagonism between Azerbaijan and Iran, it amazes me that they thought they would get anything out of their relationship with Israel (presumably) that would be worth the hassle and risk.

    I’d suppose that the US must have given them some assurances of secret support or something.

  588. @Ron Unz
    As I've repeatedly emphasized, I don't have the military expertise to reasonably analyze the current state of the Russia-Ukraine war, so I instead focus on the source analysis of those who probably do.

    Here's the latest half-hour interview of Col. Macgregor, for those who haven't already seen it:

    https://youtu.be/t8FG34KX0h4

    Macgregor is obviously a military expert and he seems awfully, awfully, awfully confident in the claims he is making.

    Admittedly, it's been an unusually warm winter in the region so the ground hasn't frozen, delaying the large-scale military attack he'd earlier predicted would take place once it did.

    But it seems to me that if he had the slightest doubts about his broader public positions and feared that they might be wrong and severely damage his credibility, he'd have dropped out of sight weeks ago and stopped doing interviews or writing articles. Instead, he's kept up a blistering pace, and each week he seems more confident than in the previous one.

    He now claims that the Ukrainian military has probably lost over 150K dead, while Russian losses are likely in the 17K to 22K range. The facts will eventually come out, so these are very bold claims for him to make if he weren't fully convinced that they were solid.

    Macgregor is a senior military expert with strong connections across NATO and the Pentagon. So I'd say his behavior leaves only two likely possibilities: (A) he's basically correct or (B) he's gone insane.

    Replies: @A123, @sudden death, @Emil Nikola Richard, @Beckow, @Leaves No Shadow

    Macgregor is a senior military expert with strong connections across NATO and the Pentagon. So I’d say his behavior leaves only two likely possibilities: (A) he’s basically correct or (B) he’s gone insane.

    Macgregor openly admits he does not know what “the people behind Biden” are thinking. So there is — (C) He grasps the military and foreign policy elements, but is badly misreading U.S. civilian politics.
    ___

    Did Macgregor explain how Not-The-President Biden will obtain:

    • A full Declaration of War?
    • Or, the figleaf of an Authorization for Use of Military Force [AUMF]?
    • Plus, the budget to fight?

    The GOP was already gearing up to make Ukraine spending an issue during the November lame duck session: (1)

    Joe Biden is requesting another $37+ billion in Ukraine aid — with ZERO accountability. In July, I introduced Amdt. 1109 to the NDAA to establish an Inspector General for Ukrainian Military Aid to oversee these funds. Democrats BLOCKED it. Accountability is coming in January,” Rep. Andrew Clyde (R-GA) tweeted.

    This has been stoked by the recent Ukie corruption scandal. The push against funding Kiev regime aggression is coming back stronger in future House Appropriations. Having a proper audit that denies The Big Guy his 10% will immediately discourage the part of his entourage that exists for the filthy lucre of mammon.

    Macgregor is correct that the current U.S. economy cannot support a huge surge in war material production. I did not year him say anything about how America will shift to a war economy to support the Kiev regime.

    Would Not-The-President Biden intentionally & openly make American voters poorer in 2024?
    ___

    Much of what Macgregor states is sound, but his worst case scenario (e.g. the 101st will wind up in Ukraine) is not going to happen.

    This is not the 1940’s where executive power can unilaterally start a war. Back then the two parties would have reflexively come together. Now, Main Street Republicans reflexively loathe Elite Democrats. Macgregor does not see the fact that “coming together” is a domestic impossibility. The competition among civilian politicians is for “Who gets to hold the saw?” when cutting off the plank where Not-The-President Biden stands.

    MAGA is anti-war. And, Trump has already started his MAGA campaign. The domestic political cycle is now vicious and perpetual due to non-stop streaming media. Those of us paying attention grasp that NeoConDemocrats are the new “War Party”. However, I do not see how the pro-war DNC can openly declare that to the masses leading up to the next Presidential election.

    PEACE 😇
    __________

    (1) https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2022/11/17/thomas-massie-on-bidens-38b-ukraine-aid-request-demand-a-halt-demand-an-audit-demand-an-inspector-general/

  589. @HeavilyMarbledSteak
    @Mikel

    So I would say the Sawtooth area and the Wind River are both fairly dry and arid until you get deep into the mountains where the forests in both areas get lush. At least the eastern side of the Sawtooths - I didn't go the Western side,

    The Sawtooths look very different though, more like the Tetons, rising sharply out of the plains into jagged peaks. And they look dramatic driving on the plains, whereas the Wind Rivers don't really look like much till you hike into them or drive down the dirt roads.

    The Sawtooths are more accessible too - the Winds, you have to drive 20 miles down dirt roads to even start accessing the really good scenery, and it's not until you hike 5-6 miles in that it gets draw-dropping.

    The Winds are still the prettier range in my view :)

    The tiny town of Stanley Idaho has amazing views of the Sawtooths. The whole area though is just a few hours from Boise, and in today's explosion of interest in wilderness activities that means the area was pretty crowded. Still though with all the vastness it's ok.

    I came in through Sun Valley, which is apparently where Hemingway used to love spending time in Idaho and where he wrote many of his fishing and mountain stories about - it is a deeply beautiful place, California-like brown hills gradually giving way to lush alpine valleys that look like Europe as you explore off the main road. There's a special quality of sunlight there. Then as you ascent another ten miles you hit the Saws.

    I totally hear you about the tropics - I actually am lately developing a real appreciation for tropical scenery, the intense green, the lushness, the sunsets, the different feel in the air - it's not just "summer", but really a different atmosphere.

    I just wrapped up three weeks in Cambodia and Thailand - I was going to head on to India, but unfortunately something at work is calling me back early.

    I stayed for about a week on Koh Chang, which is one of the largest islands in the Gulf of Siam. There's a single road circling the perimeter of the island where everyone lives, but the interior is all covered in these gorgeous dark green jungle mountains that look so enticing - but there's no way to access them! No roads, paths, nothing. Just gorgeous, thick, impenetrable jungle.

    I was thinking if this was America or Europe there would be dozens of hiking trails ascending all the peaks, but here no one bothered. Mainland South East Asia can often look exhausted and over-farmed except for some pockets, and doesn't always present tropical nature at its best unless you seek it out. But this island had a dark and mysterious interior that seemingly has never been farmed or logged, which I thought was very cool.

    And there were monkeys all over, just playing in the forest or the electrical wires over the road, which I thought was great :)

    Replies: @HeavilyMarbledSteak, @Mikel

    Thanks a lot for those descriptions. The pictures I’ve seen of the mountains in Central Idaho gave me the impression of a Canadian type of environment but it sounds like the West Coast ranges get the bulk of the humidity from the Pacific storms, leaving just the scraps for the rest of us in the West. But how productive scraps!

    I’ve actually crossed eastern Idaho on my way to Yellowstone and the landscapes there are definitely more nordic than in Utah but now I’m wondering what I should visit first, the more accessible Idaho Rockies or the remote Wind Rivers. I’ll have to study Summitpost for an assessment of the mountain objectives in both areas.

    I was thinking if this was America or Europe there would be dozens of hiking trails ascending all the peaks, but here no one bothered.

    I wouldn’t be so sure of that. I was surprised to see how wild much of the center of the small island of Oahu, the most populated one in Hawaii, is. They have built trails here and there, of course, but tropical jungles are unforgiving. They cover everything in no time. I didn’t feel the desire to climb those misty, jungle-covered mountains though. Even if I didn’t have an allergy to mosquitoes, bushwhacking your way through impenetrable vegetation is not quite the way I’ve learned to enjoy nature. When I’m in the tropics I guess I turn into the typical beach and sun loving tourist.

    I’ll watch the video with the guy in the van tonight and let YT suggest what to follow it up with, they have me pretty well figured out already. When I was much younger the idea of living in a van or camper, or at least spending long times in it, was just fascinating. I remember discussing with my girlfriend what exact model we should buy but eventually life took a different turn. Now the idea is also more or less out of the question, even though I live in the best part of the world to put it in practice, but a good part of the fascination is still there.

    • Replies: @HeavilyMarbledSteak
    @Mikel

    Yeah, Robert D Kaplan in his book Earning the Rockies described the Mountain West as basically being a desert with oases, and I remember being incredulous - I read this well before I had travelled extensively in the West. But I'm beginning to see his point.

    I haven't been there recently, but years ago I found some very verdant and lush places in western Montana - almost too much like the East Coast for my taste - and that narrow strip of Idaho that separates Montana from Washington had me driving through a gorgeous pine forest that was amazingly green and verdant.

    I don't think you can go wrong with either the Idaho Rockies or the Winds :) Both are incredible in their own right. However, the Winds have earned themselves a reputation as the finest slice of mountain scenery in the lower 48, and not without reason. But you do have to work harder to access that, so that's a consideration.

    Nothing wrong with beaches and sun :) These are pure sensuous pleasures that greatly add to the joy of life.

    Yes, I am and remain fascinated by van life, a modern form of nomadism. When I travel out West I basically live out of my small RAV4, so I'm doing SUV life for several months at a time. I love it on general but if I did it for longer, I think I'd really want something roomier and bigger so I'd get a van.

    I think van life and nomadism is one of the coolest trends to emerge recently and gives me hope.

    You and your wife could always retire to van life :) Some of these vans can be amazingly luxurious and we'll appointed. It can be a modernized version of Hindus taking to wandering the mountains on old age.

    Replies: @Sher Singh, @Mikel

  590. @Ron Unz
    As I've repeatedly emphasized, I don't have the military expertise to reasonably analyze the current state of the Russia-Ukraine war, so I instead focus on the source analysis of those who probably do.

    Here's the latest half-hour interview of Col. Macgregor, for those who haven't already seen it:

    https://youtu.be/t8FG34KX0h4

    Macgregor is obviously a military expert and he seems awfully, awfully, awfully confident in the claims he is making.

    Admittedly, it's been an unusually warm winter in the region so the ground hasn't frozen, delaying the large-scale military attack he'd earlier predicted would take place once it did.

    But it seems to me that if he had the slightest doubts about his broader public positions and feared that they might be wrong and severely damage his credibility, he'd have dropped out of sight weeks ago and stopped doing interviews or writing articles. Instead, he's kept up a blistering pace, and each week he seems more confident than in the previous one.

    He now claims that the Ukrainian military has probably lost over 150K dead, while Russian losses are likely in the 17K to 22K range. The facts will eventually come out, so these are very bold claims for him to make if he weren't fully convinced that they were solid.

    Macgregor is a senior military expert with strong connections across NATO and the Pentagon. So I'd say his behavior leaves only two likely possibilities: (A) he's basically correct or (B) he's gone insane.

    Replies: @A123, @sudden death, @Emil Nikola Richard, @Beckow, @Leaves No Shadow

    (A) he’s basically correct or (B) he’s gone insane.

    (C) he’s getting paid.

    • Replies: @AP
    @sudden death

    About MacGregor:


    (A) he’s basically correct or (B) he’s gone insane.

    (C) he’s getting paid.
     
    (D) He's disgruntled about his former colleagues and professional field.

    Replies: @QCIC

    , @LondonBob
    @sudden death

    No, if MacGregor wished to be paid he would follow the generals and spout nonsense on Fox and CNN.

    Replies: @Leaves No Shadow

    , @Mikel
    @sudden death


    (C) he’s getting paid.
     
    (F) Nah, he's just built a community of followers that like what he says and keeps repeating the same message for his loyal audience, with small variations according to the latest events. Same phenomenon as Saker and Martyanov, who don't seem to be very well off, especially the former.
  591. @RSDB
    @HeavilyMarbledSteak

    Not long ago I read Far to Seek by British novelist Maud Diver. She is very enthusiastic about the old culture of India and is often quoting Rabindranath Tagore.

    But when she comes to the famous Amritsar Massacre she describes the whole thing by basically saying "Strong measures were taken", despite what Tagore felt about it. It is as if she loves the old India so much she is actually offended by the possibility of a new India which will take on some Western culture in order to free itself from Western rule.


    I shall leave off with this beautiful quote from the introduction, calculated to infuriate the APs of the world –


     

    There's something of a (faint) parallel here with Christianity, surely, and a difference from leisure as commonly interpreted?

    In leisure as commonly interpreted, your time is your own. But in this case, the woman's time belongs ultimately to her husband, and in Christianity it belongs to God.

    (@ other comment)

    Also, with regard to viewing someone as likely especially unspiritual due to a few blog posts, I can't for the life of me see that it is all that different from viewing someone as likely especially sinful due to belonging to a lower social stratum.

    For instance, if for some unintelligible reason I wanted to produce an estimate of Mikel's spirituality, and I did this from some of his religion posts, I would probably rate him as quite unspiritual. But if I then read some of his nature posts, I would get a completely different picture. And even all these posts taken together represent only a small portion of the reality.

    NB. Since it's been brought up, if anyone here is interested in the sociological or anthropological view of drug addiction, he could do worse than to check out Merrill Singer, particularly Drugging the Poor and The Social Value of Drug Addicts: Uses of the Useless. He has, of course, a relevant political bias, but everyone has one on this topic.

    Replies: @HeavilyMarbledSteak

    I’m with Maud Diver on that one – I like the old Asia and wish it hadn’t taken on so much of the West. And I fear for India’s soul under Modi and that now she is reaching for great power status – that’s always the most dangerous time for a country’s soul.

    Thankfully, much of old Asia still survives, perhaps shockingly so, at least in the small back alleys and side streets and rural lanes and villages.

    I wouldn’t say the women in that book their time belonged to their husbands – they were extremely devoted to their husbands and willingly served their interests, but the relationships were remarkably equal and their husbands were just as devoted to them.

    But yes, I’d agree with you that is certainly a parallel to Christianity, and that kind of “repose” one finds in Heschasm. It comes from a world in which mere activity for it’s own sake was not the most important thing and being was richer than building.

    As for assessing someone’s spirituality, surely there’s no harm in giving ones impressions provided one doesn’t do it too humorlessly. But in the case if AP, I think I have quite enough evidence to come up with a very reasonable estimate, although one should always keep an open mind. But of course, I am only characterizing his remarks and not the man.

    The problem with judging the poor as sinful is in the scale of values – we are told quite clearly that it is wealth and the desire for wealth that is bad, and not poverty 🙂 – and not in the making of a judgement.

    I think it’s reasonable to judge the statements or actions of a man and assess them according to a scale of values, but condemning or moralizing about people is what is meant by judge not. You can see someone say or do something bad but refrain from condemning that person or judging his entire moral worth.

    You can say, this person commits more bad acts than the other, as a simple fact – but refrain from making any comment on his moral worth as you cannot know his unique circumstances, personality, and state of mind. Considering those, he may be a better man than you.

    That’s why the saying arose But for the grace of God…

    • Replies: @RSDB
    @HeavilyMarbledSteak

    I'm with Maud Diver on liking the old India but I'm not with Maud Diver on liking shooting into crowds.


    As for assessing someone’s spirituality, surely there’s no harm in giving ones impressions provided one doesn’t do it too humorlessly.
     
    You and I assess harm differently so I am not talking about harm-- I am just talking about whether our assessments of that sort of thing over the internet mean much or not. You were praising Talha to the skies and then accusing him of being the kind of person who would beat his wife so maybe these sorts of assessments are just a little off kilter some of the time.

    I wouldn’t say the women in that book their time belonged to their husbands – they were extremely devoted to their husbands and willingly served their interests, but the relationships were remarkably equal and their husbands were just as devoted to them.

     

    No, but I'd say it's one possible interpretation that their time belonged to their husbands in a way their husbands' time did not belong to them, and from that passage the author is leaning towards my interpretation. But it's really a question of interpretation after all. Anyway there's something valuable in remembering to describe being a woman as something important and distinct in its own right.

    And I don't have anything to add to what Ivashka/Bashi wrote about that passage, which is excellent.

    Really enjoying your travelogues. It seems like you've had some luck beating the winter in the tropics, although personally I find you write more movingly about your trips in the US somehow.

    Replies: @HeavilyMarbledSteak

  592. I think the Iranians did a pretty good job with this pro-natalism commercial. Doesn’t quite take the message to the level where I would take it (i.e. ethnonationalism). But I guess Iran has limitations on that:

    [MORE]

    • Replies: @Yahya
    @songbird

    I was checking out the new figures for GDP per capita (nominal) in 2022 and noticed something very strange.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita

    Iran = $23,034
    Latvia = $21,482
    Greece = $20,876
    Slovakia = $20,565
    Poland = $19,023
    Hungary = $18,983
    Romania = $15,619
    Russia = $14,665
    Turkey = $9,961

    Apparently Iran in 2022 outproduced most Eastern European countries and Turkey; if the statistics are to be believed. Surprising given that it is supposedly underneath heavy sanctions and experiencing significant political turmoil. One could attribute the figure to increased oil & gas revenue; but oil prices increased no more than 2x over the past year, whereas Iran’s GDP per capita has quintupled from 2021 to 2022, when it was just $4,091. No other major fossil fuel exporter has seen a comparable increase in per capita figures.

    I strongly doubt Iran is more prosperous than Poland or Hungary, or even Russia or Turkey. Something is a bit off with the nominal figures. The PPP figures have their problems too; but I don’t think they would produce such an odd outcome. In the PPP figures; Poland and Hungary would be placed at the $42,000 mark while Iran would go down to $18,000; which makes more sense imo.

    Replies: @Emil Nikola Richard, @Blinky Bill, @songbird

  593. @QCIC
    @A123

    "America is not engaged in this conflict" other than having been the prime mover working on many levels to cause it!

    I suspect the amount of American manpower assistance on the ground is more than you suggest. Once the propaganda was under control many Americans would willingly go over to participate in something like this. Generals in all branches of the military would be eager to have troops get the direct experience in this type of fighting.

    Replies: @A123

    America is not engaged in this conflict in any meaningful way. There has been no push to swap from peace economy to war economy.

    “America is not engaged in this conflict” other than…

    You entirely missed my point. Let me spell it out:

    • A war economy is needed for engagement
    • There is no war economy
    • Therefore, there is exceedingly limited American engagement

    America can easily walk away at any time. Neither national interest nor prestige is at stake.

    …having been the prime mover working on many levels to cause it!

    The European WEF has been the prime mover to cause this. Sadly some Elite U.S. Leftoids, like Nuland, were corrupted by European values. However, those nutters have nothing to do with Main Street America.

    I suspect the amount of American manpower assistance on the ground is more than you suggest.

    You appear to badly over estimate the numbers of American boots on the ground. And, how quickly “trainers” and intelligence teams can be extracted.

    Mercenary contractors are expendable. Sell swords always are.

    Generals in all branches of the military would be eager to have troops get the direct experience in this type of fighting.

    Generals hate defeat.

    • Expending Ukrainian lives to field test their fancy new toys is grim, but a somewhat believable accusation.
    • Volunteering to lose their forces out on the end of an incredibly tenuous supply chain is not plausible.

    Afghanistan showed how hard it is to support troops over long distances. Given the importance of the Black Sea, any American force would have to heavily rely on Turkey Türkiye for logistics.

    If you were a General, would you stake the lives of your troops on Erdogan’s reliability as a war partner?

    PEACE 😇

    • Replies: @QCIC
    @A123

    I understood your point. I just didn't like your misleading wording on the larger issue, intentional or otherwise.

    It has long been suspected that starting a major war would be the means the West pursues to attempt to get out of the dollar mess. It remains to be seen if that is what is going with respect to Ukraine.

    Replies: @A123

  594. @Ron Unz
    As I've repeatedly emphasized, I don't have the military expertise to reasonably analyze the current state of the Russia-Ukraine war, so I instead focus on the source analysis of those who probably do.

    Here's the latest half-hour interview of Col. Macgregor, for those who haven't already seen it:

    https://youtu.be/t8FG34KX0h4

    Macgregor is obviously a military expert and he seems awfully, awfully, awfully confident in the claims he is making.

    Admittedly, it's been an unusually warm winter in the region so the ground hasn't frozen, delaying the large-scale military attack he'd earlier predicted would take place once it did.

    But it seems to me that if he had the slightest doubts about his broader public positions and feared that they might be wrong and severely damage his credibility, he'd have dropped out of sight weeks ago and stopped doing interviews or writing articles. Instead, he's kept up a blistering pace, and each week he seems more confident than in the previous one.

    He now claims that the Ukrainian military has probably lost over 150K dead, while Russian losses are likely in the 17K to 22K range. The facts will eventually come out, so these are very bold claims for him to make if he weren't fully convinced that they were solid.

    Macgregor is a senior military expert with strong connections across NATO and the Pentagon. So I'd say his behavior leaves only two likely possibilities: (A) he's basically correct or (B) he's gone insane.

    Replies: @A123, @sudden death, @Emil Nikola Richard, @Beckow, @Leaves No Shadow

    He is trying to make logical inferences from incomplete data with obsolete logic.

    There is a recently translated of Leibniz first work on law published here:

    In the introduction the translator observes the necessity of a rigorous logic of probability argued in unsurpassed fashion by Leibniz, in the seventeenth century, and laments that no such logic has yet been constructed. In the postmodern era Robin Hanson and Elizer Yudkowsky have tried to remedy this but most people can see their efforts are woeful and inadequate.

    The only thing to do is wait and see and not make repetitive idiotic youtubes broadcasting one’s ignorance. : )

  595. @Mikel
    @AP


    If anything, our ancestors’ limitation made them be less confident in their technological and observational prowess and and therefore less prone to the irrational Scientism belief.
     
    That is a fair point. Not being subject to the overwhelming stream of rational knowledge that science gives us, perhaps they had better intuitions about the deep meaning of life. But I am skeptical. The farther one goes in time the more primitive and elementary religions appear. Crude pantheism and practices like human sacrifices to the gods gave way to much more elaborate spirituality, especially in Asia and the Middle East. This suggests that ignorance in general doesn't lead to better forms of spirituality. Likewise, primitive societies in the modern times don't look too appealing, although some videos I've seen of hunter-gatherers appeared to show happy individuals, much more content with their lives than the average First Worlder.


    If God were to incarnate, it would be in the center of the most populated part of the world, near East and West. A place like Palestine.
     
    We must have discussed this before. If God's goal really was to maximize the reach of his message and minimize sin in the world, He would have just revealed Himself to every human on the planet, instead of sending an emissary that even most of the people around him failed to find convincing and many more never even heard of for centuries. By not doing the obvious, God just condemned many millions of humans to Hell and perpetuated all the sins he wanted to prevent in a totally unnecessary way.

    Replies: @AP

    “if anything, our ancestors’ limitation made them be less confident in their technological and observational prowess and and therefore less prone to the irrational Scientism belief.”

    That is a fair point. Not being subject to the overwhelming stream of rational knowledge that science gives us, perhaps they had better intuitions about the deep meaning of life.

    It’s more like, not being distracted by the dazzling ability to do stuff in the material world and the material things that science provides.

    But I am skeptical. The farther one goes in time the more primitive and elementary religions appear.

    The Greek, Hindu, Buddhist, Christian, Islamic thought did not seem to be be particularly primitive. If anything, modern thinkers are rather shallow compared to the earlier ones. The poster child of modern atheism, Richard Dawkins, is on the level of a university undergraduate. But the religious thinkers can be ignored by the masses who are more interested in physical wonders.

    “If God were to incarnate, it would be in the center of the most populated part of the world, near East and West. A place like Palestine.”

    We must have discussed this before. If God’s goal really was to maximize the reach of his message and minimize sin in the world, He would have just revealed Himself to every human on the planet, instead of sending an emissary that even most of the people around him failed to find convincing and many more never even heard of for centuries

    He did not want to interfere with humans’ will, so He provided the means to maximum access but without forcing the matter. The miracles He performed seem to have had a primarily didactic purpose.

    By not doing the obvious, God just condemned many millions of humans to Hell and perpetuated all the sins he wanted to prevent in a totally unnecessary way.

    IIRC Christ liberated those who never had access to Him so people not yet exposed to His light are not necessarily condemned. For the others, it’s a freely made choice.

    • Replies: @Sher Singh
    @AP

    Christianity was forced onto subjects by their Kings - quit engaging in sophistry.
    Population distribution is not even East-West especially not 2000 years ago.

    Africa, E Europe & the Americas would have almost no people. India & China have many.
    The core of the Christian world has been under Islamic domain for most of Muslim history.

    Before Industrialism more Slavic women had probably married Tatars than male slaves.
    --
    Your argument is borne of weakness - you talk of Baroque organs because Christianity lost political self-determination with the peace of Westphalia.

    w/e Go rule over AaronB - he clearly needs authority & you need serfs to be an Aristocrat.

    , @Mikel
    @AP


    He did not want to interfere with humans’ will, so He provided the means to maximum access but without forcing the matter.
     
    Too convoluted to believe. Being God, He could have easily chosen any method to repeat His message: a worldwide appearance in the sky, a collective dream, a synchronous apparition to every human being, the possibilities are endless. And that would have guaranteed that indeed sinners would sin out of free will, rather than ignorance or following wrong messages from other religions. By playing hide and seek, to borrow Woody Allen's words, the end result is much more sin in the world He created. Let's also remember that when He delivered His earlier message to Moses He chose to select just one tribe of humans as the destinataries at a time when they weren't particularly interconnected to multiple civilizations.

    Replies: @AP, @Coconuts

  596. @songbird
    I think the Iranians did a pretty good job with this pro-natalism commercial. Doesn't quite take the message to the level where I would take it (i.e. ethnonationalism). But I guess Iran has limitations on that:

    https://twitter.com/kitten_beloved/status/1619540972303695876?s=20&t=jqOqROl3c0YRMYHXSH4Uaw

    Replies: @Yahya

    I was checking out the new figures for GDP per capita (nominal) in 2022 and noticed something very strange.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita

    Iran = $23,034
    Latvia = $21,482
    Greece = $20,876
    Slovakia = $20,565
    Poland = $19,023
    Hungary = $18,983
    Romania = $15,619
    Russia = $14,665
    Turkey = $9,961

    Apparently Iran in 2022 outproduced most Eastern European countries and Turkey; if the statistics are to be believed. Surprising given that it is supposedly underneath heavy sanctions and experiencing significant political turmoil. One could attribute the figure to increased oil & gas revenue; but oil prices increased no more than 2x over the past year, whereas Iran’s GDP per capita has quintupled from 2021 to 2022, when it was just $4,091. No other major fossil fuel exporter has seen a comparable increase in per capita figures.

    I strongly doubt Iran is more prosperous than Poland or Hungary, or even Russia or Turkey. Something is a bit off with the nominal figures. The PPP figures have their problems too; but I don’t think they would produce such an odd outcome. In the PPP figures; Poland and Hungary would be placed at the $42,000 mark while Iran would go down to $18,000; which makes more sense imo.

    • Replies: @Emil Nikola Richard
    @Yahya

    Have you read Jorjani's Iranian Leviathan?

    He is a crackpot but the history of Iran/Persia/&c is pretty spectacular. He claims they are a modern educated people and less than 10% of them are going to the mosque every week and praying 5 times a day. He is proven a crackpot on a host of non-Iran topics. I have no clue if that carries over every where.

    Replies: @Yahya, @Yevardian

    , @Blinky Bill
    @Yahya

    The IMF converts Iran's nominal GDP using the official exchange rate of the Rial, not the black market / real exchange rate. They changed their methodology, hence the dramatic increase. I appreciate the Swiss story, very enlightening on many levels.

    , @songbird
    @Yahya

    Iran is hard country to get a good feel for because it is so big and variegated.

  597. @sudden death
    @Ron Unz


    (A) he’s basically correct or (B) he’s gone insane.
     
    (C) he's getting paid.

    Replies: @AP, @LondonBob, @Mikel

    About MacGregor:

    (A) he’s basically correct or (B) he’s gone insane.

    (C) he’s getting paid.

    (D) He’s disgruntled about his former colleagues and professional field.

    • Agree: Yevardian
    • Replies: @QCIC
    @AP

    E) He wants to avoid nuclear war at all costs.

    In other words he will say anything that he believes reduces the chance of nuclear war. If you look at the big picture this is probably the moral (Christian) thing to do.

    This has several aspects, so an explanation might be:

    Ukraine winning brings us closer to nuclear war because the West would press the advantage and eventually keep backing Russia into a corner until nuclear war becomes inevitable for that side. So he is trying to put the brakes on the pro-Ukraine side. On the other hand, being a voice of reason to balance the discussion makes people aware that Neocons might actually do a nuclear false flag from our side. I decided to not lose sleep over the third option where Ukraine has a nuke and uses it, which is not a false flag.

    I think A and E are the answer.

    Replies: @LatW

  598. @Ron Unz
    As I've repeatedly emphasized, I don't have the military expertise to reasonably analyze the current state of the Russia-Ukraine war, so I instead focus on the source analysis of those who probably do.

    Here's the latest half-hour interview of Col. Macgregor, for those who haven't already seen it:

    https://youtu.be/t8FG34KX0h4

    Macgregor is obviously a military expert and he seems awfully, awfully, awfully confident in the claims he is making.

    Admittedly, it's been an unusually warm winter in the region so the ground hasn't frozen, delaying the large-scale military attack he'd earlier predicted would take place once it did.

    But it seems to me that if he had the slightest doubts about his broader public positions and feared that they might be wrong and severely damage his credibility, he'd have dropped out of sight weeks ago and stopped doing interviews or writing articles. Instead, he's kept up a blistering pace, and each week he seems more confident than in the previous one.

    He now claims that the Ukrainian military has probably lost over 150K dead, while Russian losses are likely in the 17K to 22K range. The facts will eventually come out, so these are very bold claims for him to make if he weren't fully convinced that they were solid.

    Macgregor is a senior military expert with strong connections across NATO and the Pentagon. So I'd say his behavior leaves only two likely possibilities: (A) he's basically correct or (B) he's gone insane.

    Replies: @A123, @sudden death, @Emil Nikola Richard, @Beckow, @Leaves No Shadow

    McGregor is not insane and is mostly correct: his connections use him to voice what they can’t say. What he says is common sense: a bigger force fighting in its own region against a weaker army that 100% depends on foreign support. Any AI simulation what suggest that Russia will grind Kiev down and win. Maybe putting that idea out there is not such a bad idea. McGregor looks like he is guided and permitted to say what he does.

    There has to be a way out with Nato saving some face. If they casually walk away as in the past, the emotional build-up and the rhetorical escalation will be very destabilizing – at a minimum for the people who are fronting it. It is a dilemma because it requires Russia’s acquiescence. Maybe triggering a ‘new big event‘ would provide the cover.

    Basically the Nato planners made the error of not taking into account what their target can do: because when Russia is in sight, so are they. Ukies walked into it like a naive girl flying to be to a ‘waitress in Dubai‘, way too late for them. But Nato needs a way out. Maybe Poland can invade Kaliningrad, they won’t get the “Intermarium” without it…

    • Agree: Mikhail
    • Replies: @Leaves No Shadow
    @Beckow

    Looking back through your comments, it seems you've been as consistently wrong as MacGregor has been on Ukraine, which is as consistently wrong as it is possible to be.

    Replies: @Beckow

    , @Wokechoke
    @Beckow

    You would be amazed at how easy it is to walk away. Pretending it never happened.

    Replies: @Beckow, @A123

  599. @216
    @AnonfromTN

    https://external-preview.redd.it/6Mdq6AsF-Gza5zSPaTJQWLBw3SMpdwq5fuJzAew-4xY.png?auto=webp&s=f66971ce87782446f0a95e705d251d9526958e0f

    https://th.bing.com/th/id/R.59622d23c2004425d3d27cd65d41634b?rik=gwmIHBYrU9ib8g&riu=http%3a%2f%2fwww.johnstonsarchive.net%2fpolicy%2fabortion%2fukraine%2fmapukraineabrate.gif&ehk=uJF215WP%2bujv%2bsJJO2VOnbb8uzkUBsCSOZqdgkU%2bcQU%3d&risl=&pid=ImgRaw&r=0

    Galicians are the best behaved Ukrainians.

    Replies: @AP

    Yes, in the extremely unlikely event that Ukraine is reduced to the parts that weren’t part of the USSR in 1939, the remainder will probably catch up to its western neighbors fairly quickly, 10-20 years. It has a lot of IT and western light industry already, between the Carpathian gas fields and the nuclear plants it’s energy-self-sufficient, and it will benefit from a lot of smart young people fleeing Russian rule in Kiev and Kharkiv but unwilling to move to a foreign country. It would probably get the reconstruction aid which wouldn’t go to any Russian-occupied territory. Lviv would probably top a million people.

    Most likely though would be stalemate at the current line of contact (give or take some places like Bakhmut or even Kramatorsk), with a good chance of Ukraine taking back the corridor to Crimea but not fortified and urban Donbas.

  600. @A123
    @QCIC



    America is not engaged in this conflict in any meaningful way. There has been no push to swap from peace economy to war economy.
     
    “America is not engaged in this conflict” other than...
     
    You entirely missed my point. Let me spell it out:

    • A war economy is needed for engagement
    • There is no war economy
    • Therefore, there is exceedingly limited American engagement

    America can easily walk away at any time. Neither national interest nor prestige is at stake.

    ...having been the prime mover working on many levels to cause it!
     
    The European WEF has been the prime mover to cause this. Sadly some Elite U.S. Leftoids, like Nuland, were corrupted by European values. However, those nutters have nothing to do with Main Street America.

    I suspect the amount of American manpower assistance on the ground is more than you suggest.
     
    You appear to badly over estimate the numbers of American boots on the ground. And, how quickly "trainers" and intelligence teams can be extracted.

    Mercenary contractors are expendable. Sell swords always are.

    Generals in all branches of the military would be eager to have troops get the direct experience in this type of fighting.
     
    Generals hate defeat.

    • Expending Ukrainian lives to field test their fancy new toys is grim, but a somewhat believable accusation.
    • Volunteering to lose their forces out on the end of an incredibly tenuous supply chain is not plausible.

    Afghanistan showed how hard it is to support troops over long distances. Given the importance of the Black Sea, any American force would have to heavily rely on Turkey Türkiye for logistics.

    If you were a General, would you stake the lives of your troops on Erdogan's reliability as a war partner?

    PEACE 😇

    Replies: @QCIC

    I understood your point. I just didn’t like your misleading wording on the larger issue, intentional or otherwise.

    It has long been suspected that starting a major war would be the means the West pursues to attempt to get out of the dollar mess. It remains to be seen if that is what is going with respect to Ukraine.

    • Replies: @A123
    @QCIC


    It has long been suspected that starting a major war would be the means the West pursues to attempt to get out of the dollar mess.
     
    Your idea is absurd. Spending money on Kiev regime aggression can only make things economically worse. There is no potential upside...

    Why are you being so misleading, intentionally or otherwise?

    PEACE 😇

    Replies: @QCIC

  601. @sudden death
    @Ron Unz


    (A) he’s basically correct or (B) he’s gone insane.
     
    (C) he's getting paid.

    Replies: @AP, @LondonBob, @Mikel

    No, if MacGregor wished to be paid he would follow the generals and spout nonsense on Fox and CNN.

    • Replies: @Leaves No Shadow
    @LondonBob

    He lacks the credibility of the Generals.

    Replies: @Wokechoke

  602. @AP
    @sudden death

    About MacGregor:


    (A) he’s basically correct or (B) he’s gone insane.

    (C) he’s getting paid.
     
    (D) He's disgruntled about his former colleagues and professional field.

    Replies: @QCIC

    E) He wants to avoid nuclear war at all costs.

    In other words he will say anything that he believes reduces the chance of nuclear war. If you look at the big picture this is probably the moral (Christian) thing to do.

    This has several aspects, so an explanation might be:

    Ukraine winning brings us closer to nuclear war because the West would press the advantage and eventually keep backing Russia into a corner until nuclear war becomes inevitable for that side. So he is trying to put the brakes on the pro-Ukraine side. On the other hand, being a voice of reason to balance the discussion makes people aware that Neocons might actually do a nuclear false flag from our side. I decided to not lose sleep over the third option where Ukraine has a nuke and uses it, which is not a false flag.

    I think A and E are the answer.

    • Replies: @LatW
    @QCIC


    Ukraine winning brings us closer to nuclear war because the West would press the advantage and eventually keep backing Russia into a corner until nuclear war becomes inevitable for that side
     
    This is a very faulty wording of the problem. As a nuclear state, Russia, too, is obligated to a higher standard of behavior. Russia should've considered all consequences that could follow from an annexation of the territory of another state and even more so - from an invasion of a large foreign state. Russia could've acted prudently, as the one General Ivashov advised, by simply annexing areas in Donbas from whence Russia could easily project her strength (especially since Russia had already placed long range missiles in both Kaliningrad and Crimea - Russia was safe from the Western side, above all because the West had no designs on Russian territory). But no.

    Russia was not prudent but believed she could keep getting away with the salami slicing tactics, that were already quite bold, that Russia had practiced for years on much smaller and geographically more vulnerable countries. They overplayed their hand.

    When one is a nuclear state one needs to be far sighted and prudent. This is really not about Russia (or Ukraine) but the how nuclear states should behave (which has global repercussions).

    Replies: @QCIC

  603. @HeavilyMarbledSteak
    @RSDB

    I'm with Maud Diver on that one - I like the old Asia and wish it hadn't taken on so much of the West. And I fear for India's soul under Modi and that now she is reaching for great power status - that's always the most dangerous time for a country's soul.

    Thankfully, much of old Asia still survives, perhaps shockingly so, at least in the small back alleys and side streets and rural lanes and villages.

    I wouldn't say the women in that book their time belonged to their husbands - they were extremely devoted to their husbands and willingly served their interests, but the relationships were remarkably equal and their husbands were just as devoted to them.

    But yes, I'd agree with you that is certainly a parallel to Christianity, and that kind of "repose" one finds in Heschasm. It comes from a world in which mere activity for it's own sake was not the most important thing and being was richer than building.

    As for assessing someone's spirituality, surely there's no harm in giving ones impressions provided one doesn't do it too humorlessly. But in the case if AP, I think I have quite enough evidence to come up with a very reasonable estimate, although one should always keep an open mind. But of course, I am only characterizing his remarks and not the man.

    The problem with judging the poor as sinful is in the scale of values - we are told quite clearly that it is wealth and the desire for wealth that is bad, and not poverty :) - and not in the making of a judgement.

    I think it's reasonable to judge the statements or actions of a man and assess them according to a scale of values, but condemning or moralizing about people is what is meant by judge not. You can see someone say or do something bad but refrain from condemning that person or judging his entire moral worth.

    You can say, this person commits more bad acts than the other, as a simple fact - but refrain from making any comment on his moral worth as you cannot know his unique circumstances, personality, and state of mind. Considering those, he may be a better man than you.

    That's why the saying arose But for the grace of God...

    Replies: @RSDB

    I’m with Maud Diver on liking the old India but I’m not with Maud Diver on liking shooting into crowds.

    As for assessing someone’s spirituality, surely there’s no harm in giving ones impressions provided one doesn’t do it too humorlessly.

    You and I assess harm differently so I am not talking about harm– I am just talking about whether our assessments of that sort of thing over the internet mean much or not. You were praising Talha to the skies and then accusing him of being the kind of person who would beat his wife so maybe these sorts of assessments are just a little off kilter some of the time.

    [MORE]

    I wouldn’t say the women in that book their time belonged to their husbands – they were extremely devoted to their husbands and willingly served their interests, but the relationships were remarkably equal and their husbands were just as devoted to them.

    No, but I’d say it’s one possible interpretation that their time belonged to their husbands in a way their husbands’ time did not belong to them, and from that passage the author is leaning towards my interpretation. But it’s really a question of interpretation after all. Anyway there’s something valuable in remembering to describe being a woman as something important and distinct in its own right.

    And I don’t have anything to add to what Ivashka/Bashi wrote about that passage, which is excellent.

    Really enjoying your travelogues. It seems like you’ve had some luck beating the winter in the tropics, although personally I find you write more movingly about your trips in the US somehow.

    • Replies: @HeavilyMarbledSteak
    @RSDB

    Definitely agree about the shooting into crowds. I didn't understand your point I now see - you're saying it's strange for someone with such obvious affection for India to not condemn such an obvious crime against her. I'd agree with that.


    You were praising Talha to the skies and then accusing him of being the kind of person who would beat his wife so maybe these sorts of assessments are just a little off kilter some of the time.
     
    That's actually an excellent point and I'd have to agree with you and withdraw my former objections :)

    Although the wife beating thing was meant more figuratively than literally, as I grew to know Talha better I did eventually come to a completely different assessment of him. He was a huge disappoinment to me.

    Not just him - Tritelia Laxa I also had a hugely favorable impression of initially, only to eventually conclude that she exhibited the symptoms of a genuine, bona fide sociopath. (Although here I go again making strong judgements based on some internet posts lol).

    I think I'm just a sucker for people who present themselves as "good", because it's so rare especially on this site, but of course that's an easy way to be manipulated and duped :)

    But yeah, I should take my judgements with a grain of salt, we should.

    Even though, I'd like both Laxa and Talha to comment on this site again. Banning Laxa was silly - once you understand her she's harmless, and they both added color and entertainment.

    Anyway there’s something valuable in remembering to describe being a woman as something important and distinct in its own right.
     
    Yes, I'm not a fan of the obliteration of distinctions in modern times.

    Only, I'd say the kind of repose and passivity described in that passage is also very important to being a man and featured largely in every spiritual tradition.

    Really enjoying your travelogues. It seems like you’ve had some luck beating the winter in the tropics, although personally I find you write more movingly about your trips in the US somehow.
     
    Thank you kindly.

    Yes, I think you've picked up on the fact that while I appreciate it, I'm not as passionate about tropical nature as I am about the the nature of the American West, which moves me much more.

    I travel to SEA or India more to experience the utterly different human cultures, and to see rural life fitting in with nature, and only secondarily enjoy the nature in itself, because I can't go anywhere without doing that :)
  604. @sudden death
    Last night real full blown airwar started gainst Iran for the first time ever, if I'm not mistaken - both drones and rocketry in many places, including a strike after which whole literal earthquake started, lol

    Presumably, it is new old PM Benjamin at work, now doing what Trump chickened out to do after initiating escalation with Suleimani first?

    https://t.me/m0sc0wcalling/18922

    Replies: @A123, @Greasy William, @A123, @songbird, @LatW

    Apparently, some time ago, Israel took out a large supply of these Iranian drones somewhere in Syria. Hezbollah was likely going to sell those drones to Russia. Thus Russia would’ve had those drones readily available at the very start of the Russo-Ukrainian war. This may have saved a lot of Ukrainian civilian lives (of course, Israel did it for herself, not Ukraine, it’s a situational thing that benefited Ukraine).

    Israel will never admit it if they did these current blasts (they don’t have to). There are also rumors that the Iranian opposition (Mojahedin) could’ve done it.

  605. @Ron Unz
    As I've repeatedly emphasized, I don't have the military expertise to reasonably analyze the current state of the Russia-Ukraine war, so I instead focus on the source analysis of those who probably do.

    Here's the latest half-hour interview of Col. Macgregor, for those who haven't already seen it:

    https://youtu.be/t8FG34KX0h4

    Macgregor is obviously a military expert and he seems awfully, awfully, awfully confident in the claims he is making.

    Admittedly, it's been an unusually warm winter in the region so the ground hasn't frozen, delaying the large-scale military attack he'd earlier predicted would take place once it did.

    But it seems to me that if he had the slightest doubts about his broader public positions and feared that they might be wrong and severely damage his credibility, he'd have dropped out of sight weeks ago and stopped doing interviews or writing articles. Instead, he's kept up a blistering pace, and each week he seems more confident than in the previous one.

    He now claims that the Ukrainian military has probably lost over 150K dead, while Russian losses are likely in the 17K to 22K range. The facts will eventually come out, so these are very bold claims for him to make if he weren't fully convinced that they were solid.

    Macgregor is a senior military expert with strong connections across NATO and the Pentagon. So I'd say his behavior leaves only two likely possibilities: (A) he's basically correct or (B) he's gone insane.

    Replies: @A123, @sudden death, @Emil Nikola Richard, @Beckow, @Leaves No Shadow

    So I’d say his behavior leaves only two likely possibilities: (A) he’s basically correct or (B) he’s gone insane.

    If you were him, how would you work out which one of these two options you were?

  606. @LondonBob
    @sudden death

    No, if MacGregor wished to be paid he would follow the generals and spout nonsense on Fox and CNN.

    Replies: @Leaves No Shadow

    He lacks the credibility of the Generals.

    • Replies: @Wokechoke
    @Leaves No Shadow

    He could have very easily plumped to joining the chorus of proUkie pundits.

    He commanded a Tank Regiment as a professional soldier and helped to dismantle Serbia in a big way. He's written a couple of manuals on the subject and a couple of popular histories. He's got a decent voice and would have made out like a bandit promoting Ukraine's chances.

    He's obviously two things though. Anglophobic and Contrarian. He may also feel very very guilty about what he did to Serbia as a senior NATO planner.

    he's just presenting the Pentagon Minority Report.

    Someone must.

  607. @Beckow
    @Ron Unz

    McGregor is not insane and is mostly correct: his connections use him to voice what they can't say. What he says is common sense: a bigger force fighting in its own region against a weaker army that 100% depends on foreign support. Any AI simulation what suggest that Russia will grind Kiev down and win. Maybe putting that idea out there is not such a bad idea. McGregor looks like he is guided and permitted to say what he does.

    There has to be a way out with Nato saving some face. If they casually walk away as in the past, the emotional build-up and the rhetorical escalation will be very destabilizing - at a minimum for the people who are fronting it. It is a dilemma because it requires Russia's acquiescence. Maybe triggering a 'new big event' would provide the cover.

    Basically the Nato planners made the error of not taking into account what their target can do: because when Russia is in sight, so are they. Ukies walked into it like a naive girl flying to be to a 'waitress in Dubai', way too late for them. But Nato needs a way out. Maybe Poland can invade Kaliningrad, they won't get the "Intermarium" without it...

    Replies: @Leaves No Shadow, @Wokechoke

    Looking back through your comments, it seems you’ve been as consistently wrong as MacGregor has been on Ukraine, which is as consistently wrong as it is possible to be.

    • LOL: LatW
    • Replies: @Beckow
    @Leaves No Shadow

    You may want to be more specific....otherwise you sound like a one-time troll...

    Replies: @Leaves No Shadow

  608. @Beckow
    @Ron Unz

    McGregor is not insane and is mostly correct: his connections use him to voice what they can't say. What he says is common sense: a bigger force fighting in its own region against a weaker army that 100% depends on foreign support. Any AI simulation what suggest that Russia will grind Kiev down and win. Maybe putting that idea out there is not such a bad idea. McGregor looks like he is guided and permitted to say what he does.

    There has to be a way out with Nato saving some face. If they casually walk away as in the past, the emotional build-up and the rhetorical escalation will be very destabilizing - at a minimum for the people who are fronting it. It is a dilemma because it requires Russia's acquiescence. Maybe triggering a 'new big event' would provide the cover.

    Basically the Nato planners made the error of not taking into account what their target can do: because when Russia is in sight, so are they. Ukies walked into it like a naive girl flying to be to a 'waitress in Dubai', way too late for them. But Nato needs a way out. Maybe Poland can invade Kaliningrad, they won't get the "Intermarium" without it...

    Replies: @Leaves No Shadow, @Wokechoke

    You would be amazed at how easy it is to walk away. Pretending it never happened.

    • Replies: @Beckow
    @Wokechoke

    It is, and they have done it. But with Ukies they have raised the emotional temperature to a stratosphere. When they eventually walk away the embarrassment will be too obvious...they need a cover.

    Replies: @LatW

    , @A123
    @Wokechoke


    You would be amazed at how easy it is to walk away. Pretending it never happened.
     
    I concur.

    Much of the current inch deep support for Kiev is a consequence of the debunked "Russia, Russia, Russia" myth. Add, the recent Ukrainian corruption scandal. Spice the dish with Hunter Biden and Burisma. Congratulations! The whole thing is a unappealing mess.

    A funding cut is guaranteed. Getting rid of Not-The-President Biden would be an excellent time to pull the plug on the whole thing. America has absolutely nothing at stake in the "European Error".

    PEACE 😇
  609. @QCIC
    @AP

    E) He wants to avoid nuclear war at all costs.

    In other words he will say anything that he believes reduces the chance of nuclear war. If you look at the big picture this is probably the moral (Christian) thing to do.

    This has several aspects, so an explanation might be:

    Ukraine winning brings us closer to nuclear war because the West would press the advantage and eventually keep backing Russia into a corner until nuclear war becomes inevitable for that side. So he is trying to put the brakes on the pro-Ukraine side. On the other hand, being a voice of reason to balance the discussion makes people aware that Neocons might actually do a nuclear false flag from our side. I decided to not lose sleep over the third option where Ukraine has a nuke and uses it, which is not a false flag.

    I think A and E are the answer.

    Replies: @LatW

    Ukraine winning brings us closer to nuclear war because the West would press the advantage and eventually keep backing Russia into a corner until nuclear war becomes inevitable for that side

    This is a very faulty wording of the problem. As a nuclear state, Russia, too, is obligated to a higher standard of behavior. Russia should’ve considered all consequences that could follow from an annexation of the territory of another state and even more so – from an invasion of a large foreign state. Russia could’ve acted prudently, as the one General Ivashov advised, by simply annexing areas in Donbas from whence Russia could easily project her strength (especially since Russia had already placed long range missiles in both Kaliningrad and Crimea – Russia was safe from the Western side, above all because the West had no designs on Russian territory). But no.

    Russia was not prudent but believed she could keep getting away with the salami slicing tactics, that were already quite bold, that Russia had practiced for years on much smaller and geographically more vulnerable countries. They overplayed their hand.

    When one is a nuclear state one needs to be far sighted and prudent. This is really not about Russia (or Ukraine) but the how nuclear states should behave (which has global repercussions).

    • Replies: @QCIC
    @LatW

    I agree that my comment was not fully formed. I was trying to give a hint of an explanation for my theory on MacGregor without getting into important ideas including the ones you mention. My underlying point is that for some survivors of the Cold War, the idea of avoiding nuclear war may take on a life of its own.

    I do believe the West sees Ukraine as a stepping stone to crush Russia's power. I expect that victory in Ukraine would lead to other Western-sponsored wars using Russia's neighbors against her. Sadly, a Russian victory may lead to the same thing.

    Replies: @LatW, @AnonfromTN

  610. @Yahya
    @songbird

    I was checking out the new figures for GDP per capita (nominal) in 2022 and noticed something very strange.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita

    Iran = $23,034
    Latvia = $21,482
    Greece = $20,876
    Slovakia = $20,565
    Poland = $19,023
    Hungary = $18,983
    Romania = $15,619
    Russia = $14,665
    Turkey = $9,961

    Apparently Iran in 2022 outproduced most Eastern European countries and Turkey; if the statistics are to be believed. Surprising given that it is supposedly underneath heavy sanctions and experiencing significant political turmoil. One could attribute the figure to increased oil & gas revenue; but oil prices increased no more than 2x over the past year, whereas Iran’s GDP per capita has quintupled from 2021 to 2022, when it was just $4,091. No other major fossil fuel exporter has seen a comparable increase in per capita figures.

    I strongly doubt Iran is more prosperous than Poland or Hungary, or even Russia or Turkey. Something is a bit off with the nominal figures. The PPP figures have their problems too; but I don’t think they would produce such an odd outcome. In the PPP figures; Poland and Hungary would be placed at the $42,000 mark while Iran would go down to $18,000; which makes more sense imo.

    Replies: @Emil Nikola Richard, @Blinky Bill, @songbird

    Have you read Jorjani’s Iranian Leviathan?

    He is a crackpot but the history of Iran/Persia/&c is pretty spectacular. He claims they are a modern educated people and less than 10% of them are going to the mosque every week and praying 5 times a day. He is proven a crackpot on a host of non-Iran topics. I have no clue if that carries over every where.

    • Replies: @Yahya
    @Emil Nikola Richard


    Have you read Jorjani’s Iranian Leviathan?
     
    No.

    He is a crackpot but the history of Iran/Persia/&c is pretty spectacular.

     

    Indeed.

    He claims they are a modern educated people and less than 10% of them are going to the mosque every week and praying 5 times a day.
     
    Well he claims; but has he backed it up with evidence?

    I wrote a post filled with statistics from the WVS on Iranian attitudes towards religion in private and public life: https://www.unz.com/akarlin/open-thread-197/#comment-5572186

    - 63% of Iranians said they prayed several times a day.
    - 70.5% of Iranians viewed religion as being “very important” to their life,
    - 81.5% of Iranians thought God was “very important”
    - 18.9% of Iranians agreed with the statement “whenever science and religion conflict, religion is always right” versus ;
    - 63.7% of Iranians prayed several times a day,
    - 83.2% of Iranians described themselves as religious versus

    Laxa linked to another survey which showed only 32% percent of Iranians identified as Shia; but that 78% believed in God. The survey was digital though; so it skewed towards a certain segment of people - the digitally-active youth; which may be unrepresentative of broader Iranian society.

    But anyway, these are all statistics which are more scientific and rigorous (if done properly) than anecdotes; but perhaps a bit dry and boring. So I will tell you some of my unscientific observations and you can draw your own conclusions on the modernity or lack thereof of Iranians.

    My own opinion is that Iran has a relatively sizable bourgeois for a "third world country"; perhaps 25-30% of the population (though this is a gut estimate). It's a segment of society that produces a lot of academics, scientists, mathematicians, engineers, musicians, filmmakers etc. giving Iran a creditable and sophisticated high culture; which i'm a fan of. That said; I wouldn't exactly describe this segment as being especially "modern" in the sense that people usually use the term - that is as a synonym for "Western" or "Westernized".

    My personal experience is that educated Iranians tend to be less Westernized, more provincial, and more conservative than Mediterranean Arab, Turkish and Indian elites; and roughly equivalent to Gulf Arab elites. The ostensible reason for this is because Iran has not been colonized; and is somewhat distant geographically from the West. I'd put more emphasis on the former since India is even more distant from Europe than Iran but the Hindu elites are almost uniformly fluent in English, a substantial portion of them educated under the British schooling system; and generally in tune with the West through social media channels and the like. Iranians by contrast don't engage much with the outside world. You can see first-hand on Unz how there are basically zero Iranians around here; while you'd occasionally find an Arab, Indian or Turk roaming around.

    My sister was once working for a hotel in Switzerland when she was assigned to a delegation of Iranians who were going to stay in the hotel. My sister, an Egyptian who speaks fluent French and is well-educated; said rich Iranians reminded her of our Saudi Arabian cousins; in that they were well-off but provincial and closed-off from the world; didn't understand basic rudiments of foreign cultures. The Iranian women also expressed surprise at her working and living in Switzerland on her own; which in conservative Islamic cultures like Iran is frowned upon. Again this reminded us of our Saudi Arabian female cousins who were not permitted to study aboard (unless they had a male guardian to go with them); even though they had the means to do so.

    When I was young my parents would send me and my siblings to summer camps in places like Scotland and Switzerland (something I used to think my parents did for our own benefit; but now realize they just wanted to get rid of us for a month so they can have some freedom from burdensome kids). But anyway; there'd be elites from all over the world; China, Brazil, Russia, Turkey, Pakistan, India, Egypt, America, France, Britain, Italy etc. But conspicuous in absence was always Iranians.

    (As a side note; the Turkish elites I met during one camp were extremely secular and very Westernized; though interestingly their English was fairly weak. I remember talking to this one Turk and explaining to him how there are two major mosques in Saudi Arabia: one in Mecca and one in Medina. That's very basic knowledge for most Muslims around the globe; but this Turkish fellow was at a complete loss. I also got to know a Jewish Turk; which previously I had not been aware existed. I still have these people as friends on Facebook; the Jewish Turk posts pro-Israeli comments on Facebook whenever a conflict with Palestinians pops up, lol.)

    So in conclusion; there's a sizable segment of Iranian society who are smart and educated; but they tend to be provincial bumpkins like Gulf Arabs; moreso on average than educated Arabs from Egypt, Levant or Maghreb. Main reason is because they like most Gulf Arabs were not colonized or influenced by the British or French as a place like Tunisia was. I used to think that that Lebanon was the most Westernized ("modern") Arab country; but recently I'm thinking maybe Tunisia or Algeria. Whenever I'm browsing Maghrebi culture; I find that French is frequently interspersed with Arabic in their music, TV shows, movies etc. You can see for example in this talk show video below, the guest and host are using French almost as frequently as Arabic.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i4nFV76DbTI&ab_channel=ElhiwarEttounsi

    Lebanon is multi-lingual too, but not to the extent that a talk show designed for mass-appeal can use French; with the implicit idea being that even common Maghrebiennes will understand the language. Lebanon's multi-lingualism is confined to the educated segment; whereas the Maghrebi masses are fluent French. This also tracks with my personal experiences; I once had a Moroccan driver (literally the lowest class in society) who was fluent in French. You won't find any Egyptian driver who can speak English at a comparable level.

    Replies: @Leaves No Shadow

    , @Yevardian
    @Emil Nikola Richard


    He claims they are a modern educated people and less than 10% of them are going to the mosque every week and praying 5 times a day.
     
    These are common claims you hear from the Iranian diaspora in general. It's definitely lower than the Arab world and Turkey but I'd probably conservatively double that percentage.

    Though if the country had not suffered the Imposed War or became an international pariah I have no doubt it would have at least converged with Turkey in terms of GDP and influence.
  611. Sher Singh says:
    @AP
    @Mikel


    "if anything, our ancestors’ limitation made them be less confident in their technological and observational prowess and and therefore less prone to the irrational Scientism belief."

    That is a fair point. Not being subject to the overwhelming stream of rational knowledge that science gives us, perhaps they had better intuitions about the deep meaning of life.
     
    It's more like, not being distracted by the dazzling ability to do stuff in the material world and the material things that science provides.

    But I am skeptical. The farther one goes in time the more primitive and elementary religions appear.
     
    The Greek, Hindu, Buddhist, Christian, Islamic thought did not seem to be be particularly primitive. If anything, modern thinkers are rather shallow compared to the earlier ones. The poster child of modern atheism, Richard Dawkins, is on the level of a university undergraduate. But the religious thinkers can be ignored by the masses who are more interested in physical wonders.

    "If God were to incarnate, it would be in the center of the most populated part of the world, near East and West. A place like Palestine."

    We must have discussed this before. If God’s goal really was to maximize the reach of his message and minimize sin in the world, He would have just revealed Himself to every human on the planet, instead of sending an emissary that even most of the people around him failed to find convincing and many more never even heard of for centuries
     
    He did not want to interfere with humans' will, so He provided the means to maximum access but without forcing the matter. The miracles He performed seem to have had a primarily didactic purpose.

    By not doing the obvious, God just condemned many millions of humans to Hell and perpetuated all the sins he wanted to prevent in a totally unnecessary way.
     
    IIRC Christ liberated those who never had access to Him so people not yet exposed to His light are not necessarily condemned. For the others, it's a freely made choice.

    Replies: @Sher Singh, @Mikel

    Christianity was forced onto subjects by their Kings – quit engaging in sophistry.
    Population distribution is not even East-West especially not 2000 years ago.

    Africa, E Europe & the Americas would have almost no people. India & China have many.
    The core of the Christian world has been under Islamic domain for most of Muslim history.

    Before Industrialism more Slavic women had probably married Tatars than male slaves.

    Your argument is borne of weakness – you talk of Baroque organs because Christianity lost political self-determination with the peace of Westphalia.

    w/e Go rule over AaronB – he clearly needs authority & you need serfs to be an Aristocrat.

  612. @QCIC
    @A123

    I understood your point. I just didn't like your misleading wording on the larger issue, intentional or otherwise.

    It has long been suspected that starting a major war would be the means the West pursues to attempt to get out of the dollar mess. It remains to be seen if that is what is going with respect to Ukraine.

    Replies: @A123

    It has long been suspected that starting a major war would be the means the West pursues to attempt to get out of the dollar mess.

    Your idea is absurd. Spending money on Kiev regime aggression can only make things economically worse. There is no potential upside…

    Why are you being so misleading, intentionally or otherwise?

    PEACE 😇

    • Replies: @QCIC
    @A123

    The second part of my reply was simply making conversation. This idea about starting a war to get out of political trouble has a long history. I mention it in the context of the SMO since nothing about the conflict is all that clear and keeping all explanatory options in mind is a good habit IMO.

    I think a real modern war could look much different than past wars and I'm not sure the wartime economic mobilization will be all that similar. If things get serious WMDs may be too good for the evil warmongers to pass up and these weapons don't necessarily require massive industrialization.

    Replies: @A123

  613. @Leaves No Shadow
    @Beckow

    Looking back through your comments, it seems you've been as consistently wrong as MacGregor has been on Ukraine, which is as consistently wrong as it is possible to be.

    Replies: @Beckow

    You may want to be more specific….otherwise you sound like a one-time troll…

    • Replies: @Leaves No Shadow
    @Beckow

    Specific about MacGregor? It is in my comment history. Specific about you? Surely you must know? You cannot be that obtuse.

    Are you Czech or Slovak by the way? Because lol

    Putins's sick war gives this guy biggest win in Czech history.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jan/28/petr-pavel-wins-landslide-victory-in-czech-presidential-elections

    Replies: @Beckow

  614. @Wokechoke
    @Beckow

    You would be amazed at how easy it is to walk away. Pretending it never happened.

    Replies: @Beckow, @A123

    It is, and they have done it. But with Ukies they have raised the emotional temperature to a stratosphere. When they eventually walk away the embarrassment will be too obvious…they need a cover.

    • Replies: @LatW
    @Beckow


    It is, and they have done it. But with Ukies they have raised the emotional temperature to a stratosphere. When they eventually walk away the embarrassment will be too obvious…they need a cover.
     
    This might be a bit different, since the Ukies are European and closer to Europe than those other wars. And they are a larger nation that also has hands on experience with modern warfare (through their recent Soviet past plus the war since 2014 and quite possibly all those other martial traditions they have from even earlier times).

    Replies: @Beckow

  615. @Wokechoke
    @Beckow

    You would be amazed at how easy it is to walk away. Pretending it never happened.

    Replies: @Beckow, @A123

    You would be amazed at how easy it is to walk away. Pretending it never happened.

    I concur.

    Much of the current inch deep support for Kiev is a consequence of the debunked “Russia, Russia, Russia” myth. Add, the recent Ukrainian corruption scandal. Spice the dish with Hunter Biden and Burisma. Congratulations! The whole thing is a unappealing mess.

    A funding cut is guaranteed. Getting rid of Not-The-President Biden would be an excellent time to pull the plug on the whole thing. America has absolutely nothing at stake in the “European Error”.

    PEACE 😇

  616. @Beckow
    @Wokechoke

    It is, and they have done it. But with Ukies they have raised the emotional temperature to a stratosphere. When they eventually walk away the embarrassment will be too obvious...they need a cover.

    Replies: @LatW

    It is, and they have done it. But with Ukies they have raised the emotional temperature to a stratosphere. When they eventually walk away the embarrassment will be too obvious…they need a cover.

    This might be a bit different, since the Ukies are European and closer to Europe than those other wars. And they are a larger nation that also has hands on experience with modern warfare (through their recent Soviet past plus the war since 2014 and quite possibly all those other martial traditions they have from even earlier times).

    • Replies: @Beckow
    @LatW

    It might be different, but much more likely it will not. I have noticed that even AP is switching to a Galician homeland strategy, quite a climb-down. But with "IT" and "gas fields", no less. This is getting comical.

    My point is simple: for Kiev this is a stupid un-winnable war they could have avoided. The Ukie casualties and the desperate rush of weapons are not a sign of strength. There is a very small chance that it escalates into a nuclear war or that Russia collapses internally. But the overwhelming odds are that eventually Russia will win. What the f..k are you going to do then? Why was the un-winnable nonsense provoked? This definitely doesn't benefit anyone in the region, least of all the hapless bleeding Ukies.

    Replies: @LatW, @AP

  617. @Beckow
    @Leaves No Shadow

    You may want to be more specific....otherwise you sound like a one-time troll...

    Replies: @Leaves No Shadow

    Specific about MacGregor? It is in my comment history. Specific about you? Surely you must know? You cannot be that obtuse.

    Are you Czech or Slovak by the way? Because lol

    Putins’s sick war gives this guy biggest win in Czech history.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jan/28/petr-pavel-wins-landslide-victory-in-czech-presidential-elections

    • Replies: @Beckow
    @Leaves No Shadow

    ...'because lol' is retarded response, at least you identify yourself, thanks.

    Pavel is an old commie general from the 80's, his dad run military intelligence, they both studied in Moscow. He run against an unpopular oligarch who used to also be a police informer. What are you so giddy about? Or are you actually stupid enough to follow Guardian?

  618. @A123
    @QCIC


    It has long been suspected that starting a major war would be the means the West pursues to attempt to get out of the dollar mess.
     
    Your idea is absurd. Spending money on Kiev regime aggression can only make things economically worse. There is no potential upside...

    Why are you being so misleading, intentionally or otherwise?

    PEACE 😇

    Replies: @QCIC

    The second part of my reply was simply making conversation. This idea about starting a war to get out of political trouble has a long history. I mention it in the context of the SMO since nothing about the conflict is all that clear and keeping all explanatory options in mind is a good habit IMO.

    I think a real modern war could look much different than past wars and I’m not sure the wartime economic mobilization will be all that similar. If things get serious WMDs may be too good for the evil warmongers to pass up and these weapons don’t necessarily require massive industrialization.

    • Replies: @A123
    @QCIC


    The second part of my reply was simply making conversation
     
    It came across as misleading and diversionary.

    You keep trying to dance away from the indisputable truth that America has little at stake and can easily walk away from the European Empire's over reach.


    This idea about starting a war to get out of political trouble has a long history. I mention it in the context of the SMO since nothing about the conflict is all that clear and keeping all explanatory options in mind is a good habit IMO.
     
    Sure. I now see the history you are going for. However it does not fit the current U.S. situation. Let us compare:

    • A charismatic leader, even a GW Bush (shudder), can wield a crisis to empower to their administration.
    • A lobotomite, gaffe prone, veggie-in-chief cannot possibly obtain anything from a foreign policy spectacle.

    Not-The-President Biden was not able to wring anything of value out of the larger WUHAN-19 virus crisis. Even his poor quality handlers would not repeat such an error. Hunter Biden's corrupt and inflammatory relationship with Ukrainian industry would make it an inevitable fiasco.
    __

    The more straightforward explanation is:

        • EU Globalists/European WEF made an error provoking Russia.
        • Europe pulled their puppet strings across the Atlantic.
        • Europe's servitor could not obtain a Declaration of War (or AUMF)
        • America's non-engagement was locked in
        • Europe snatched what it could from a "non-engagement" U.S.

    While they managed to obtain piles of cash, there was no war economy. There was no endless supply of munitions such as the lead up to WW II. There was no 'engagement'. And, there is no penalty for a simple common sense walk away.

    This should be chain of events that any foreign policy wonk can easily follow.

    PEACE 😇

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

  619. @Dmitry
    @Coconuts


    approaches to understanding morality
     
    You can see they are based from the same concept of objectivity.

    God chooses to grant heaven (closeness to or union with God) that is goodness
     
    Promises of heaven/hell, when they are used in the non-mystical religious context, become a control system (i.e. dog training). It is becoming not morality, but delayed version https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operant_conditioning_chamber which is based in selfish behavior.

    You can say to suicide bombers they don't need to marry in the real world, as there are many virgins in the next world for them, if they follow the religious jihad. This is giving delayed food to the rat. Or you can say they go to hell if they don't, there is the electric shock against the rate.

    The suicide bomber is not behaving selfless, if they believe this reward/punishment exists, but just a kind of delayed selfish behavior to attain the reward.

    But the religious tradition understands this problem and there is morality they need to explain. This is in some of the most famous religious texts, including Iron Age writing.

    For example, Book of Job, Satan is allowed to punish Job, kill his children. The punishment is not because Job is bad.

    They do punishment to Job, because he seems good. Therefore they need to test him, to see if his soul is good.

    His exterior behavior is not adequate information God. It's not his exterior behavior which is important for God, the internal quality. Although they restore his property at the end.

    By the way, this is also the common topic of the Greek tragedy and forward to a lot of the Renaissance literature like Shakespeare.

    Catholic church also says in their official views, the determination of heaven and hell, is in final, if the person has love or hate in their soul. They don't emphasize controlling of behavior.

    oppressed groups have special and unique insight into morality/politics due to their experience. They can use this experience to transform society for the better through revolt against oppression and gaining power moral or just a person or group must first be powerful and capable enough to understand and carry out what needs to be done. Morality therefore flows from ‘the generosity of power’

     

    It seems to be Nietzsche's theory of Christianity in "Anti-Christ" - "slave morality".

    Replies: @RSDB

    You can say to suicide bombers they don’t need to marry in the real world, as there are many virgins in the next world for them, if they follow the religious jihad. This is giving delayed food to the rat. Or you can say they go to hell if they don’t, there is the electric shock against the rate.

    The suicide bomber is not behaving selfless, if they believe this reward/punishment exists, but just a kind of delayed selfish behavior to attain the reward.

    LTTE, which did much to develop and refine the use of suicide bombers as a tactic, was an avowedly secular organization. The idea, whatever its degree of validity, is that the suicide bomber gives his life not for his own advantage but for the sake of the love that he bears the community.

    On the other hand, if you sign up to join such a group, you will undergo normal military discipline which involves rewards and punishments and “controlling of behavior”.

    And again, in the previous case, trusting that the rewards and punishments and virgins in the afterlife will be there after blowing yourself up is not itself an entirely neutral action. It is an act of pure trust (probably misplaced trust in this case) which probably has within it a certain movement of love, bizarre as that sounds.

  620. @LatW
    @QCIC


    Ukraine winning brings us closer to nuclear war because the West would press the advantage and eventually keep backing Russia into a corner until nuclear war becomes inevitable for that side
     
    This is a very faulty wording of the problem. As a nuclear state, Russia, too, is obligated to a higher standard of behavior. Russia should've considered all consequences that could follow from an annexation of the territory of another state and even more so - from an invasion of a large foreign state. Russia could've acted prudently, as the one General Ivashov advised, by simply annexing areas in Donbas from whence Russia could easily project her strength (especially since Russia had already placed long range missiles in both Kaliningrad and Crimea - Russia was safe from the Western side, above all because the West had no designs on Russian territory). But no.

    Russia was not prudent but believed she could keep getting away with the salami slicing tactics, that were already quite bold, that Russia had practiced for years on much smaller and geographically more vulnerable countries. They overplayed their hand.

    When one is a nuclear state one needs to be far sighted and prudent. This is really not about Russia (or Ukraine) but the how nuclear states should behave (which has global repercussions).

    Replies: @QCIC

    I agree that my comment was not fully formed. I was trying to give a hint of an explanation for my theory on MacGregor without getting into important ideas including the ones you mention. My underlying point is that for some survivors of the Cold War, the idea of avoiding nuclear war may take on a life of its own.

    I do believe the West sees Ukraine as a stepping stone to crush Russia’s power. I expect that victory in Ukraine would lead to other Western-sponsored wars using Russia’s neighbors against her. Sadly, a Russian victory may lead to the same thing.

    • Replies: @LatW
    @QCIC


    My underlying point is that for some survivors of the Cold War, the idea of avoiding nuclear war may take on a life of its own.
     
    The way to address this is not by destroying a large European state (Ukraine), including the murder and dispossession of hundreds of thousands, so as to then threaten other European states. That only makes things worse and Russia's own position more fragile.

    The way to address this is at a more mature level among the nuclear states - if Russia cannot hold its revanchist temper and feels compelled to constantly threaten with "nuclear ashes"*, then maybe a more mellow country such as China needs to step in and chaperone Russia (maybe help safeguard Russia's nuclear arsenal so that the crazies who believe that "we will go to heaven but they will all croak" do not take over and take half of the world with them - and, btw, they won't be going to Heaven but to that other place).


    I expect that victory in Ukraine would lead to other Western-sponsored wars using Russia’s neighbors against her

     

    It would depend on Russia's behavior. If they quit salami slicing and posturing needlessly, they'd be fine. The West, especially Western Europe, was very accommodating to Russia, despite the former invasions. When Ukraine had full control of its 1991 border, neither Ukraine nor the West had designs on Russia proper. If they had had those designs, the right approach would have been the one I mentioned above - place your missiles across the periphery (the way it had already been done in Kenig and Crimea) and, if anyone moves closer to the Russian border, then blast the f*ckers. Simple as that. But no...

    Sadly, a Russian victory may lead to the same thing.
     
    Absolutely. That crocodile is never fully sated. The more it devours, the hungrier it gets. It's an irrational creature (the political elite and the plebs). The General Staff was a bit more rational, hence more conservative in their aims. Alas, this war was run by politicians, not the military...

    *This is actually more directed at their own population whom the Kremlin for some reason has decided to keep in constant fear of these "nuclear ashes" via their propaganda channels.

    Replies: @QCIC

    , @AnonfromTN
    @QCIC


    I do believe the West sees Ukraine as a stepping stone to crush Russia’s power. I expect that victory in Ukraine would lead to other Western-sponsored wars using Russia’s neighbors against her. Sadly, a Russian victory may lead to the same thing.
     
    After huge investment by the empire and its vassals into Ukraine, it looks like both the empire and the RF see this as an existential conflict. Sadly, as this is either the US or the RF, regardless of the outcome in Ukraine, additional pawns will be thrown into the conflict.

    Long time ago the best chancellor in German history Bismarck clearly stated that marching on Moscow is a bad career move. But the imperial puppeteers are ignorant.
  621. @Leaves No Shadow
    @Beckow

    Specific about MacGregor? It is in my comment history. Specific about you? Surely you must know? You cannot be that obtuse.

    Are you Czech or Slovak by the way? Because lol

    Putins's sick war gives this guy biggest win in Czech history.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jan/28/petr-pavel-wins-landslide-victory-in-czech-presidential-elections

    Replies: @Beckow

    ‘because lol’ is retarded response, at least you identify yourself, thanks.

    Pavel is an old commie general from the 80’s, his dad run military intelligence, they both studied in Moscow. He run against an unpopular oligarch who used to also be a police informer. What are you so giddy about? Or are you actually stupid enough to follow Guardian?

    • LOL: Leaves No Shadow
  622. @LatW
    @Beckow


    It is, and they have done it. But with Ukies they have raised the emotional temperature to a stratosphere. When they eventually walk away the embarrassment will be too obvious…they need a cover.
     
    This might be a bit different, since the Ukies are European and closer to Europe than those other wars. And they are a larger nation that also has hands on experience with modern warfare (through their recent Soviet past plus the war since 2014 and quite possibly all those other martial traditions they have from even earlier times).

    Replies: @Beckow

    It might be different, but much more likely it will not. I have noticed that even AP is switching to a Galician homeland strategy, quite a climb-down. But with “IT” and “gas fields”, no less. This is getting comical.

    My point is simple: for Kiev this is a stupid un-winnable war they could have avoided. The Ukie casualties and the desperate rush of weapons are not a sign of strength. There is a very small chance that it escalates into a nuclear war or that Russia collapses internally. But the overwhelming odds are that eventually Russia will win. What the f..k are you going to do then? Why was the un-winnable nonsense provoked? This definitely doesn’t benefit anyone in the region, least of all the hapless bleeding Ukies.

    • Replies: @LatW
    @Beckow


    I have noticed that even AP is switching to a Galician homeland strategy, quite a climb-down
     
    Let's be honest - AP always sort of had that attitude. Which is rather different from the position of most Ukrainian patriots and even regular Ukrainians. I do agree with him, however, that the future of Western Ukraine might be quite good - those people are very close to us mentally, I don't see any issues there. But it is not enough for me.

    These coming couple of months will be very tough, so some people might have it hard to hold their spirits up. This is something that most people are not fit to endure (such a savage war, where one has to watch innocent people being savagely murdered with seemingly no end in sight - although the bombings might soon subside).


    The Ukie casualties and the desperate rush of weapons are not a sign of strength
     
    The casualties are high, but not fully known. I do not trust either Western nor Russian sources. I only trust select Ukrainian officers who are on the ground and even they have the picture only of their direct area, not the whole front line which is huge. But, yes, the casualties will be high because Russia is large and savage in its fighting manner and this is a War of Independence. I have heard at least on two occasions from rather reliable UA military sources that most of the Ukrainian male population might need to go through fighting (which is heartbreaking, of course).

    As to the "rush of weapons" - while late, it is not desperate. The US tried to boil the frog slowly. I'm not in favor of this approach, but I understand the rationale behind it - to do this incrementally, has actually made it less escalatory. And the parade of tanks is getting to be quite impressive, more and more countries want to participate (it must feel good to participate on the side of those who still have the initiative, e.g., Ukraine). So we will see what Zaluzhny will conjure up this time (I mean... wow!).


    But the overwhelming odds are that eventually Russia will win. What the f..k are you going to do then?

     

    Arm ourselves.

    Replies: @Beckow

    , @AP
    @Beckow


    It might be different, but much more likely it will not. I have noticed that even AP is switching to a Galician homeland strategy, quite a climb-down.
     
    You are lying as usual.

    I made very clear what the likely outcome will be.

    My point is simple: for Kiev this is a stupid un-winnable war they could have avoided.
     
    Like Slovakia during World War II, Ukraine could have accepted a status as a puppet and lackey.

    Instead, Ukraine decided to fight in order to prevent that.
  623. @QCIC
    @LatW

    I agree that my comment was not fully formed. I was trying to give a hint of an explanation for my theory on MacGregor without getting into important ideas including the ones you mention. My underlying point is that for some survivors of the Cold War, the idea of avoiding nuclear war may take on a life of its own.

    I do believe the West sees Ukraine as a stepping stone to crush Russia's power. I expect that victory in Ukraine would lead to other Western-sponsored wars using Russia's neighbors against her. Sadly, a Russian victory may lead to the same thing.

    Replies: @LatW, @AnonfromTN

    My underlying point is that for some survivors of the Cold War, the idea of avoiding nuclear war may take on a life of its own.

    The way to address this is not by destroying a large European state (Ukraine), including the murder and dispossession of hundreds of thousands, so as to then threaten other European states. That only makes things worse and Russia’s own position more fragile.

    The way to address this is at a more mature level among the nuclear states – if Russia cannot hold its revanchist temper and feels compelled to constantly threaten with “nuclear ashes”*, then maybe a more mellow country such as China needs to step in and chaperone Russia (maybe help safeguard Russia’s nuclear arsenal so that the crazies who believe that “we will go to heaven but they will all croak” do not take over and take half of the world with them – and, btw, they won’t be going to Heaven but to that other place).

    I expect that victory in Ukraine would lead to other Western-sponsored wars using Russia’s neighbors against her

    It would depend on Russia’s behavior. If they quit salami slicing and posturing needlessly, they’d be fine. The West, especially Western Europe, was very accommodating to Russia, despite the former invasions. When Ukraine had full control of its 1991 border, neither Ukraine nor the West had designs on Russia proper. If they had had those designs, the right approach would have been the one I mentioned above – place your missiles across the periphery (the way it had already been done in Kenig and Crimea) and, if anyone moves closer to the Russian border, then blast the f*ckers. Simple as that. But no…

    Sadly, a Russian victory may lead to the same thing.

    Absolutely. That crocodile is never fully sated. The more it devours, the hungrier it gets. It’s an irrational creature (the political elite and the plebs). The General Staff was a bit more rational, hence more conservative in their aims. Alas, this war was run by politicians, not the military…

    *This is actually more directed at their own population whom the Kremlin for some reason has decided to keep in constant fear of these “nuclear ashes” via their propaganda channels.

    • Replies: @QCIC
    @LatW

    Most of the so-called "Russian threats to use nuclear weapons" are simply a reminder and the message is almost the opposite of a threat. They are imploring the West not to get both sides trapped in a situation where the use of nuclear weapons becomes likely, such as in the Turkey-Cuba fiasco. The Russian government spokespeople are trying to be the adults in the room reminding the Western politicians and bureaucrats that nuclear weapons are a factor of life in our current situation. Russia neither invented nuclear weapons nor used them in war. They are simply reminding the idiots in the West that actions have consequences.

    I am not talking about the minutiae of putting missiles in some Eastern European country or along Russia's Southern border. That is important, but is part of a much bigger picture. I am pointing out that conventional war of empires including economic war, statecraft, color revolutions, provocations, SMO, etc. can potentially have nuclear consequences. That is the point the Russian's are making with the so-called threats. To some degree I discount the bloodthirsty nuclear saber-rattling by Russian pundits, since we also have those in the West.

    If the West wanted to work with the kindler, gentler Russia which you propose the US should not have dropped out of the ABM treaty. This was a pivotal mistake and was recognized as such at the time.

    Replies: @LatW

  624. @Beckow
    @LatW

    It might be different, but much more likely it will not. I have noticed that even AP is switching to a Galician homeland strategy, quite a climb-down. But with "IT" and "gas fields", no less. This is getting comical.

    My point is simple: for Kiev this is a stupid un-winnable war they could have avoided. The Ukie casualties and the desperate rush of weapons are not a sign of strength. There is a very small chance that it escalates into a nuclear war or that Russia collapses internally. But the overwhelming odds are that eventually Russia will win. What the f..k are you going to do then? Why was the un-winnable nonsense provoked? This definitely doesn't benefit anyone in the region, least of all the hapless bleeding Ukies.

    Replies: @LatW, @AP

    I have noticed that even AP is switching to a Galician homeland strategy, quite a climb-down

    Let’s be honest – AP always sort of had that attitude. Which is rather different from the position of most Ukrainian patriots and even regular Ukrainians. I do agree with him, however, that the future of Western Ukraine might be quite good – those people are very close to us mentally, I don’t see any issues there. But it is not enough for me.

    These coming couple of months will be very tough, so some people might have it hard to hold their spirits up. This is something that most people are not fit to endure (such a savage war, where one has to watch innocent people being savagely murdered with seemingly no end in sight – although the bombings might soon subside).

    The Ukie casualties and the desperate rush of weapons are not a sign of strength

    The casualties are high, but not fully known. I do not trust either Western nor Russian sources. I only trust select Ukrainian officers who are on the ground and even they have the picture only of their direct area, not the whole front line which is huge. But, yes, the casualties will be high because Russia is large and savage in its fighting manner and this is a War of Independence. I have heard at least on two occasions from rather reliable UA military sources that most of the Ukrainian male population might need to go through fighting (which is heartbreaking, of course).

    As to the “rush of weapons” – while late, it is not desperate. The US tried to boil the frog slowly. I’m not in favor of this approach, but I understand the rationale behind it – to do this incrementally, has actually made it less escalatory. And the parade of tanks is getting to be quite impressive, more and more countries want to participate (it must feel good to participate on the side of those who still have the initiative, e.g., Ukraine). So we will see what Zaluzhny will conjure up this time (I mean… wow!).

    But the overwhelming odds are that eventually Russia will win. What the f..k are you going to do then?

    Arm ourselves.

    • Replies: @Beckow
    @LatW


    ...Arm ourselves.
     
    That's like saying that when one gets piss-drunk the solution is to drink more. Good luck with that.

    You and I don't disagree much, but I assign equal fault to the irrational Kiev posturing (rejecting Minsk) and the Anglo madmen who decided that Nato in Ukraine was a great idea. Your suggestion that Russia could have waited and blow up any missiles on its border is, frankly, idiotic. Nobody acts that way. Would US sit back and wait as Russia takes control of Quebec? Of course not, everyone knows it - you simply don't give Russia the same rights. The war is to determine whether Russia can assert these rights. So far it looks like they are able to: there will be no Nato in Ukraine, no bases, no missiles - how can that be a victory for Washington?


    most of the Ukrainian male population might need to go through fighting - which is heartbreaking
     
    What are they going to die for? They had independence and they blew it. They will not improve their living standards - wars are destructive, people die and leave. They will not defeat Russia and march around Red Square or even Donetsk. They are dying to feed the Western neo-con egos - a total waste that would be comical if it wasn't so sad.

    AP's Galician retreat is a step back - shrunken homeland. If the morons in Kiev implemented Minsk, the homeland would be much bigger, with no sacrifices and almost certain ability to eventually manipulate Donbas into compliance (money talks :)... If his dream comes true it won't be an Intermarium, it will be a larger Moldova - very poor, with most people leaving and Poland in the role of Romania. Not much to look forward to.

    But as we say 'those you can't advise, you can't help', so you guys enjoy the mayhem, hope for the best....and of course 'arm yourself'...that will be a lot of help...And it could have been so much easier if people just used some rationality and stop treating anything Russian as the devil-incarnate.

    Replies: @AP, @LatW

  625. @LatW
    @QCIC


    My underlying point is that for some survivors of the Cold War, the idea of avoiding nuclear war may take on a life of its own.
     
    The way to address this is not by destroying a large European state (Ukraine), including the murder and dispossession of hundreds of thousands, so as to then threaten other European states. That only makes things worse and Russia's own position more fragile.

    The way to address this is at a more mature level among the nuclear states - if Russia cannot hold its revanchist temper and feels compelled to constantly threaten with "nuclear ashes"*, then maybe a more mellow country such as China needs to step in and chaperone Russia (maybe help safeguard Russia's nuclear arsenal so that the crazies who believe that "we will go to heaven but they will all croak" do not take over and take half of the world with them - and, btw, they won't be going to Heaven but to that other place).


    I expect that victory in Ukraine would lead to other Western-sponsored wars using Russia’s neighbors against her

     

    It would depend on Russia's behavior. If they quit salami slicing and posturing needlessly, they'd be fine. The West, especially Western Europe, was very accommodating to Russia, despite the former invasions. When Ukraine had full control of its 1991 border, neither Ukraine nor the West had designs on Russia proper. If they had had those designs, the right approach would have been the one I mentioned above - place your missiles across the periphery (the way it had already been done in Kenig and Crimea) and, if anyone moves closer to the Russian border, then blast the f*ckers. Simple as that. But no...

    Sadly, a Russian victory may lead to the same thing.
     
    Absolutely. That crocodile is never fully sated. The more it devours, the hungrier it gets. It's an irrational creature (the political elite and the plebs). The General Staff was a bit more rational, hence more conservative in their aims. Alas, this war was run by politicians, not the military...

    *This is actually more directed at their own population whom the Kremlin for some reason has decided to keep in constant fear of these "nuclear ashes" via their propaganda channels.

    Replies: @QCIC

    Most of the so-called “Russian threats to use nuclear weapons” are simply a reminder and the message is almost the opposite of a threat. They are imploring the West not to get both sides trapped in a situation where the use of nuclear weapons becomes likely, such as in the Turkey-Cuba fiasco. The Russian government spokespeople are trying to be the adults in the room reminding the Western politicians and bureaucrats that nuclear weapons are a factor of life in our current situation. Russia neither invented nuclear weapons nor used them in war. They are simply reminding the idiots in the West that actions have consequences.

    I am not talking about the minutiae of putting missiles in some Eastern European country or along Russia’s Southern border. That is important, but is part of a much bigger picture. I am pointing out that conventional war of empires including economic war, statecraft, color revolutions, provocations, SMO, etc. can potentially have nuclear consequences. That is the point the Russian’s are making with the so-called threats. To some degree I discount the bloodthirsty nuclear saber-rattling by Russian pundits, since we also have those in the West.

    If the West wanted to work with the kindler, gentler Russia which you propose the US should not have dropped out of the ABM treaty. This was a pivotal mistake and was recognized as such at the time.

    • Replies: @LatW
    @QCIC


    Most of the so-called “Russian threats to use nuclear weapons” are simply a reminder and the message is almost the opposite of a threat.
     
    Actually, no. There is some intelligence from the Kremlin that these threats are real and that Putin is psychologically ready to pull the plug. Thankfully, there are also some elements in the Russian secret services who are aware of the severity of this and are apparently preparing to circumvent the order (if it ever comes). Besides, which other nuclear state does this? I can only imagine your dismay if the US or any other Western country did this.

    Russia neither invented nuclear weapons nor used them in war.
     
    While the history of conventional wars is very long, the history of nuclear weapons is very short. Just because somebody used them once (under very different circumstances), doesn't mean that one should go around screaming about their readiness to use them on their propaganda program every night.

    Russia has no experience whatsoever of fighting a real nuclear war (with the exception of some trials in the Arctic a long time ago and some drills back in the 1980s where their intention was to put the weight of fighting in the contaminated areas on the peripheral troops of the Warsaw pact which are no longer available to them).

    Because the history of nuclear weapons has been so short, it might be wise to review once again what should be the universally acceptable behavior around these weapons. Nobody on the planet is interested in having someone around who constantly threatens their use for the purpose of minor (by world standards), deranged and old fashioned pseudo-imperial escapades. Just because Putin believes that a "world without Russia is not worth living in", doesn't mean the rest of the world agrees with that statement.


    They are simply reminding the idiots in the West that actions have consequences.
     
    This is the advice that they themselves should have heeded - they should have listened to their own General Staff who were against committing to a wide ranging "SMO". And it's not over yet. The consequences of when they lose can be even more severe than now or even just lose the Crimean corridor - Zaluzhny's troops are only 80kms from Melitopol, which is very close, given the distances covered in this war.

    What's more important is that nobody in the world needs this - the world doesn't accept this "escalate to deescalate" tactic that has been Russia's MO since the 1990s. For instance, a country such as China probably doesn't view this tactic favorably at all. Or even with respect.


    I am pointing out that conventional war of empires including economic war, statecraft, color revolutions, provocations, SMO, etc. can potentially have nuclear consequences.
     
    Nuclear states have lost conventional wars and have retreated - this is something that nuclear states should keep in mind when they start risky invasions of large or midsized foreign states with a strategically important position.

    You can't win a minor conventional war in your vicinity, it may be that you don't have what it takes to possess nuclear weapons?

    Replies: @QCIC

  626. @QCIC
    @A123

    The second part of my reply was simply making conversation. This idea about starting a war to get out of political trouble has a long history. I mention it in the context of the SMO since nothing about the conflict is all that clear and keeping all explanatory options in mind is a good habit IMO.

    I think a real modern war could look much different than past wars and I'm not sure the wartime economic mobilization will be all that similar. If things get serious WMDs may be too good for the evil warmongers to pass up and these weapons don't necessarily require massive industrialization.

    Replies: @A123

    The second part of my reply was simply making conversation

    It came across as misleading and diversionary.

    You keep trying to dance away from the indisputable truth that America has little at stake and can easily walk away from the European Empire’s over reach.

    This idea about starting a war to get out of political trouble has a long history. I mention it in the context of the SMO since nothing about the conflict is all that clear and keeping all explanatory options in mind is a good habit IMO.

    Sure. I now see the history you are going for. However it does not fit the current U.S. situation. Let us compare:

    • A charismatic leader, even a GW Bush (shudder), can wield a crisis to empower to their administration.
    • A lobotomite, gaffe prone, veggie-in-chief cannot possibly obtain anything from a foreign policy spectacle.

    Not-The-President Biden was not able to wring anything of value out of the larger WUHAN-19 virus crisis. Even his poor quality handlers would not repeat such an error. Hunter Biden’s corrupt and inflammatory relationship with Ukrainian industry would make it an inevitable fiasco.
    __

    The more straightforward explanation is:

        • EU Globalists/European WEF made an error provoking Russia.
        • Europe pulled their puppet strings across the Atlantic.
        • Europe’s servitor could not obtain a Declaration of War (or AUMF)
        • America’s non-engagement was locked in
        • Europe snatched what it could from a “non-engagement” U.S.

    While they managed to obtain piles of cash, there was no war economy. There was no endless supply of munitions such as the lead up to WW II. There was no ‘engagement’. And, there is no penalty for a simple common sense walk away.

    This should be chain of events that any foreign policy wonk can easily follow.

    PEACE 😇

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @A123


    And, there is no penalty for a simple common sense walk away.
     
    "common sense" appeaser talk again. As long as Ramirez still supports the Ukie side, you'll end up in the trash heap of history, kremlinstoogeA123:

    https://www.michaelpramirez.com/uploads/3/4/9/8/34985326/mrz122522-color-copy-jpeg-1-3mb_1_orig.jpeg
  627. Some UR comments discuss several different aspects of a larger issue. I didn’t have much to say about the aspect you are emphasizing. I think I wrote a few weeks ago that the US will eventually walk away from this mess and it will simply be written out of the news. I believe that view has some overlap with your outlook, though aspects such as US involvement in Maidan and the biolabs (long after Nunn-Lugar) suggest a strong US leadership role in this mess.

    I agree that Biden isn’t really the President, but I don’t have a good theory who is calling the shots and giving him his script. It wouldn’t surprise me if those people are more committed to the Ukrainian mess than one would expect from normal evil politicians and various and sundry warmongers.

  628. @Leaves No Shadow
    @LondonBob

    He lacks the credibility of the Generals.

    Replies: @Wokechoke

    He could have very easily plumped to joining the chorus of proUkie pundits.

    He commanded a Tank Regiment as a professional soldier and helped to dismantle Serbia in a big way. He’s written a couple of manuals on the subject and a couple of popular histories. He’s got a decent voice and would have made out like a bandit promoting Ukraine’s chances.

    He’s obviously two things though. Anglophobic and Contrarian. He may also feel very very guilty about what he did to Serbia as a senior NATO planner.

    he’s just presenting the Pentagon Minority Report.

    Someone must.

    • Disagree: Leaves No Shadow
  629. @Emil Nikola Richard
    @Yahya

    Have you read Jorjani's Iranian Leviathan?

    He is a crackpot but the history of Iran/Persia/&c is pretty spectacular. He claims they are a modern educated people and less than 10% of them are going to the mosque every week and praying 5 times a day. He is proven a crackpot on a host of non-Iran topics. I have no clue if that carries over every where.

    Replies: @Yahya, @Yevardian

    Have you read Jorjani’s Iranian Leviathan?

    No.

    He is a crackpot but the history of Iran/Persia/&c is pretty spectacular.

    Indeed.

    He claims they are a modern educated people and less than 10% of them are going to the mosque every week and praying 5 times a day.

    Well he claims; but has he backed it up with evidence?

    I wrote a post filled with statistics from the WVS on Iranian attitudes towards religion in private and public life: https://www.unz.com/akarlin/open-thread-197/#comment-5572186

    – 63% of Iranians said they prayed several times a day.
    – 70.5% of Iranians viewed religion as being “very important” to their life,
    – 81.5% of Iranians thought God was “very important”
    – 18.9% of Iranians agreed with the statement “whenever science and religion conflict, religion is always right” versus ;
    – 63.7% of Iranians prayed several times a day,
    – 83.2% of Iranians described themselves as religious versus

    Laxa linked to another survey which showed only 32% percent of Iranians identified as Shia; but that 78% believed in God. The survey was digital though; so it skewed towards a certain segment of people – the digitally-active youth; which may be unrepresentative of broader Iranian society.

    But anyway, these are all statistics which are more scientific and rigorous (if done properly) than anecdotes; but perhaps a bit dry and boring. So I will tell you some of my unscientific observations and you can draw your own conclusions on the modernity or lack thereof of Iranians.

    [MORE]

    My own opinion is that Iran has a relatively sizable bourgeois for a “third world country”; perhaps 25-30% of the population (though this is a gut estimate). It’s a segment of society that produces a lot of academics, scientists, mathematicians, engineers, musicians, filmmakers etc. giving Iran a creditable and sophisticated high culture; which i’m a fan of. That said; I wouldn’t exactly describe this segment as being especially “modern” in the sense that people usually use the term – that is as a synonym for “Western” or “Westernized”.

    My personal experience is that educated Iranians tend to be less Westernized, more provincial, and more conservative than Mediterranean Arab, Turkish and Indian elites; and roughly equivalent to Gulf Arab elites. The ostensible reason for this is because Iran has not been colonized; and is somewhat distant geographically from the West. I’d put more emphasis on the former since India is even more distant from Europe than Iran but the Hindu elites are almost uniformly fluent in English, a substantial portion of them educated under the British schooling system; and generally in tune with the West through social media channels and the like. Iranians by contrast don’t engage much with the outside world. You can see first-hand on Unz how there are basically zero Iranians around here; while you’d occasionally find an Arab, Indian or Turk roaming around.

    My sister was once working for a hotel in Switzerland when she was assigned to a delegation of Iranians who were going to stay in the hotel. My sister, an Egyptian who speaks fluent French and is well-educated; said rich Iranians reminded her of our Saudi Arabian cousins; in that they were well-off but provincial and closed-off from the world; didn’t understand basic rudiments of foreign cultures. The Iranian women also expressed surprise at her working and living in Switzerland on her own; which in conservative Islamic cultures like Iran is frowned upon. Again this reminded us of our Saudi Arabian female cousins who were not permitted to study aboard (unless they had a male guardian to go with them); even though they had the means to do so.

    When I was young my parents would send me and my siblings to summer camps in places like Scotland and Switzerland (something I used to think my parents did for our own benefit; but now realize they just wanted to get rid of us for a month so they can have some freedom from burdensome kids). But anyway; there’d be elites from all over the world; China, Brazil, Russia, Turkey, Pakistan, India, Egypt, America, France, Britain, Italy etc. But conspicuous in absence was always Iranians.

    (As a side note; the Turkish elites I met during one camp were extremely secular and very Westernized; though interestingly their English was fairly weak. I remember talking to this one Turk and explaining to him how there are two major mosques in Saudi Arabia: one in Mecca and one in Medina. That’s very basic knowledge for most Muslims around the globe; but this Turkish fellow was at a complete loss. I also got to know a Jewish Turk; which previously I had not been aware existed. I still have these people as friends on Facebook; the Jewish Turk posts pro-Israeli comments on Facebook whenever a conflict with Palestinians pops up, lol.)

    So in conclusion; there’s a sizable segment of Iranian society who are smart and educated; but they tend to be provincial bumpkins like Gulf Arabs; moreso on average than educated Arabs from Egypt, Levant or Maghreb. Main reason is because they like most Gulf Arabs were not colonized or influenced by the British or French as a place like Tunisia was. I used to think that that Lebanon was the most Westernized (“modern”) Arab country; but recently I’m thinking maybe Tunisia or Algeria. Whenever I’m browsing Maghrebi culture; I find that French is frequently interspersed with Arabic in their music, TV shows, movies etc. You can see for example in this talk show video below, the guest and host are using French almost as frequently as Arabic.

    Lebanon is multi-lingual too, but not to the extent that a talk show designed for mass-appeal can use French; with the implicit idea being that even common Maghrebiennes will understand the language. Lebanon’s multi-lingualism is confined to the educated segment; whereas the Maghrebi masses are fluent French. This also tracks with my personal experiences; I once had a Moroccan driver (literally the lowest class in society) who was fluent in French. You won’t find any Egyptian driver who can speak English at a comparable level.

    • Thanks: Emil Nikola Richard
    • Replies: @Leaves No Shadow
    @Yahya

    Just found this when I looked it up. It is highly predictive of the ongoing unrest and such a large sample size is very likely resulting in am accurate picture. It also feels rightnfrim those I've spoken with, for what that is worth.

    https://gamaan.org/2022/03/31/political-systems-survey-english/

    Replies: @Yahya

  630. @HeavilyMarbledSteak
    @HeavilyMarbledSteak

    It's funny, a few weeks before I left the sweltering heat of Utah to go to Idaho, this video randomly appeared on my YouTube feed of some guy living in a van in a valley in Idaho, and I was salivating over the cool green valleys and pine forests lol and thinking I wished I knew where it was.

    Funny thing I ended up randomly camping in that exact same valley in Idaho by accident, it's one of the side roads off Sun Valley :)

    I put the YouTube vid below the more tag, in case you want to see the scenery - but I guess it's not too different from certain valleys in the Wasatch Range.



    https://youtu.be/erENFoCDkJs

    Replies: @A123

    How about this nature video?

    I am gobsmacked.

    PEACE 😇

    • Thanks: Mikel
    • Replies: @Emil Nikola Richard
    @A123

    The spray is in the sun and the stream is in the shadow. That is the reason it shows up so well. Water droplets always reflect a rainbow if you and the sun are at the right relative angular measure. Not gobsmacked.

    , @HeavilyMarbledSteak
    @A123

    That's amazing, thanks!

  631. @QCIC
    @LatW

    Most of the so-called "Russian threats to use nuclear weapons" are simply a reminder and the message is almost the opposite of a threat. They are imploring the West not to get both sides trapped in a situation where the use of nuclear weapons becomes likely, such as in the Turkey-Cuba fiasco. The Russian government spokespeople are trying to be the adults in the room reminding the Western politicians and bureaucrats that nuclear weapons are a factor of life in our current situation. Russia neither invented nuclear weapons nor used them in war. They are simply reminding the idiots in the West that actions have consequences.

    I am not talking about the minutiae of putting missiles in some Eastern European country or along Russia's Southern border. That is important, but is part of a much bigger picture. I am pointing out that conventional war of empires including economic war, statecraft, color revolutions, provocations, SMO, etc. can potentially have nuclear consequences. That is the point the Russian's are making with the so-called threats. To some degree I discount the bloodthirsty nuclear saber-rattling by Russian pundits, since we also have those in the West.

    If the West wanted to work with the kindler, gentler Russia which you propose the US should not have dropped out of the ABM treaty. This was a pivotal mistake and was recognized as such at the time.

    Replies: @LatW

    Most of the so-called “Russian threats to use nuclear weapons” are simply a reminder and the message is almost the opposite of a threat.

    Actually, no. There is some intelligence from the Kremlin that these threats are real and that Putin is psychologically ready to pull the plug. Thankfully, there are also some elements in the Russian secret services who are aware of the severity of this and are apparently preparing to circumvent the order (if it ever comes). Besides, which other nuclear state does this? I can only imagine your dismay if the US or any other Western country did this.

    Russia neither invented nuclear weapons nor used them in war.

    While the history of conventional wars is very long, the history of nuclear weapons is very short. Just because somebody used them once (under very different circumstances), doesn’t mean that one should go around screaming about their readiness to use them on their propaganda program every night.

    Russia has no experience whatsoever of fighting a real nuclear war (with the exception of some trials in the Arctic a long time ago and some drills back in the 1980s where their intention was to put the weight of fighting in the contaminated areas on the peripheral troops of the Warsaw pact which are no longer available to them).

    Because the history of nuclear weapons has been so short, it might be wise to review once again what should be the universally acceptable behavior around these weapons. Nobody on the planet is interested in having someone around who constantly threatens their use for the purpose of minor (by world standards), deranged and old fashioned pseudo-imperial escapades. Just because Putin believes that a “world without Russia is not worth living in”, doesn’t mean the rest of the world agrees with that statement.

    They are simply reminding the idiots in the West that actions have consequences.

    This is the advice that they themselves should have heeded – they should have listened to their own General Staff who were against committing to a wide ranging “SMO”. And it’s not over yet. The consequences of when they lose can be even more severe than now or even just lose the Crimean corridor – Zaluzhny’s troops are only 80kms from Melitopol, which is very close, given the distances covered in this war.

    What’s more important is that nobody in the world needs this – the world doesn’t accept this “escalate to deescalate” tactic that has been Russia’s MO since the 1990s. For instance, a country such as China probably doesn’t view this tactic favorably at all. Or even with respect.

    I am pointing out that conventional war of empires including economic war, statecraft, color revolutions, provocations, SMO, etc. can potentially have nuclear consequences.

    Nuclear states have lost conventional wars and have retreated – this is something that nuclear states should keep in mind when they start risky invasions of large or midsized foreign states with a strategically important position.

    You can’t win a minor conventional war in your vicinity, it may be that you don’t have what it takes to possess nuclear weapons?

    • Replies: @QCIC
    @LatW

    Ok, we disagree.

    I have two sincere questions. In your opinion,

    1) If Maidan had not happened and Yanukovych stayed in place, where would things stand now in Ukraine and Russia?

    2) Same question, but also assume oligarchs and external forces had not been funding groups such as Azov, Right Sector, etc.?

    Replies: @LatW, @LatW, @LatW

  632. @songbird
    Which animal has a faster reaction time, a cat or a chicken?
    https://twitter.com/Rainmaker1973/status/1618290927763853312?s=20&t=4BV1qMFAQl9XvDSWqG3_eQ

    My instinct says "chicken." And, perhaps, I am backed up by all the iconography of birds with snakes in their beaks.

    Replies: @Barbarossa

    This summer while building my addition a chicken got into my house and went jetting out with the tiny kitten riding it’s back angling for the kill.

    The chicken escaped unscathed but the kitten had high hopes.

    My data set is small and my information anecdotal so I can sadly offer little certainty in this pressing scientific matter.

    • Replies: @songbird
    @Barbarossa


    This summer while building my addition a chicken got into my house and went jetting out with the tiny kitten riding it’s back angling for the kill.
     
    Sounds like it would have made a good tiktok clip.

    In terms of locomotion, no doubt that cats have a higher burst speed. ~30 mph, compared to ~15-20 mph for a chicken, flapping its wings, or 9 mph for a non-flapping chicken. They say a chicken can run for 2 hours (at 9mph), so they must have more endurance.

    But my interest is more in striking speed, or registration speed.

    I once saw a clip of someone holding an injured eagle up close - and I'm thinking, You know that bird could turn its head 180 degrees and pluck out your eye, before you could even blink, let alone try to block it, if it had the sudden whim.

    Or such is my estimation. I may be exaggerating only slightly.

    Replies: @S

  633. @A123
    @HeavilyMarbledSteak

    How about this nature video?

    I am gobsmacked.

    PEACE 😇

    https://youtu.be/dSBs5h_3J3I

    Replies: @Emil Nikola Richard, @HeavilyMarbledSteak

    The spray is in the sun and the stream is in the shadow. That is the reason it shows up so well. Water droplets always reflect a rainbow if you and the sun are at the right relative angular measure. Not gobsmacked.

  634. @Yahya
    @Emil Nikola Richard


    Have you read Jorjani’s Iranian Leviathan?
     
    No.

    He is a crackpot but the history of Iran/Persia/&c is pretty spectacular.

     

    Indeed.

    He claims they are a modern educated people and less than 10% of them are going to the mosque every week and praying 5 times a day.
     
    Well he claims; but has he backed it up with evidence?

    I wrote a post filled with statistics from the WVS on Iranian attitudes towards religion in private and public life: https://www.unz.com/akarlin/open-thread-197/#comment-5572186

    - 63% of Iranians said they prayed several times a day.
    - 70.5% of Iranians viewed religion as being “very important” to their life,
    - 81.5% of Iranians thought God was “very important”
    - 18.9% of Iranians agreed with the statement “whenever science and religion conflict, religion is always right” versus ;
    - 63.7% of Iranians prayed several times a day,
    - 83.2% of Iranians described themselves as religious versus

    Laxa linked to another survey which showed only 32% percent of Iranians identified as Shia; but that 78% believed in God. The survey was digital though; so it skewed towards a certain segment of people - the digitally-active youth; which may be unrepresentative of broader Iranian society.

    But anyway, these are all statistics which are more scientific and rigorous (if done properly) than anecdotes; but perhaps a bit dry and boring. So I will tell you some of my unscientific observations and you can draw your own conclusions on the modernity or lack thereof of Iranians.

    My own opinion is that Iran has a relatively sizable bourgeois for a "third world country"; perhaps 25-30% of the population (though this is a gut estimate). It's a segment of society that produces a lot of academics, scientists, mathematicians, engineers, musicians, filmmakers etc. giving Iran a creditable and sophisticated high culture; which i'm a fan of. That said; I wouldn't exactly describe this segment as being especially "modern" in the sense that people usually use the term - that is as a synonym for "Western" or "Westernized".

    My personal experience is that educated Iranians tend to be less Westernized, more provincial, and more conservative than Mediterranean Arab, Turkish and Indian elites; and roughly equivalent to Gulf Arab elites. The ostensible reason for this is because Iran has not been colonized; and is somewhat distant geographically from the West. I'd put more emphasis on the former since India is even more distant from Europe than Iran but the Hindu elites are almost uniformly fluent in English, a substantial portion of them educated under the British schooling system; and generally in tune with the West through social media channels and the like. Iranians by contrast don't engage much with the outside world. You can see first-hand on Unz how there are basically zero Iranians around here; while you'd occasionally find an Arab, Indian or Turk roaming around.

    My sister was once working for a hotel in Switzerland when she was assigned to a delegation of Iranians who were going to stay in the hotel. My sister, an Egyptian who speaks fluent French and is well-educated; said rich Iranians reminded her of our Saudi Arabian cousins; in that they were well-off but provincial and closed-off from the world; didn't understand basic rudiments of foreign cultures. The Iranian women also expressed surprise at her working and living in Switzerland on her own; which in conservative Islamic cultures like Iran is frowned upon. Again this reminded us of our Saudi Arabian female cousins who were not permitted to study aboard (unless they had a male guardian to go with them); even though they had the means to do so.

    When I was young my parents would send me and my siblings to summer camps in places like Scotland and Switzerland (something I used to think my parents did for our own benefit; but now realize they just wanted to get rid of us for a month so they can have some freedom from burdensome kids). But anyway; there'd be elites from all over the world; China, Brazil, Russia, Turkey, Pakistan, India, Egypt, America, France, Britain, Italy etc. But conspicuous in absence was always Iranians.

    (As a side note; the Turkish elites I met during one camp were extremely secular and very Westernized; though interestingly their English was fairly weak. I remember talking to this one Turk and explaining to him how there are two major mosques in Saudi Arabia: one in Mecca and one in Medina. That's very basic knowledge for most Muslims around the globe; but this Turkish fellow was at a complete loss. I also got to know a Jewish Turk; which previously I had not been aware existed. I still have these people as friends on Facebook; the Jewish Turk posts pro-Israeli comments on Facebook whenever a conflict with Palestinians pops up, lol.)

    So in conclusion; there's a sizable segment of Iranian society who are smart and educated; but they tend to be provincial bumpkins like Gulf Arabs; moreso on average than educated Arabs from Egypt, Levant or Maghreb. Main reason is because they like most Gulf Arabs were not colonized or influenced by the British or French as a place like Tunisia was. I used to think that that Lebanon was the most Westernized ("modern") Arab country; but recently I'm thinking maybe Tunisia or Algeria. Whenever I'm browsing Maghrebi culture; I find that French is frequently interspersed with Arabic in their music, TV shows, movies etc. You can see for example in this talk show video below, the guest and host are using French almost as frequently as Arabic.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i4nFV76DbTI&ab_channel=ElhiwarEttounsi

    Lebanon is multi-lingual too, but not to the extent that a talk show designed for mass-appeal can use French; with the implicit idea being that even common Maghrebiennes will understand the language. Lebanon's multi-lingualism is confined to the educated segment; whereas the Maghrebi masses are fluent French. This also tracks with my personal experiences; I once had a Moroccan driver (literally the lowest class in society) who was fluent in French. You won't find any Egyptian driver who can speak English at a comparable level.

    Replies: @Leaves No Shadow

    Just found this when I looked it up. It is highly predictive of the ongoing unrest and such a large sample size is very likely resulting in am accurate picture. It also feels rightnfrim those I’ve spoken with, for what that is worth.

    https://gamaan.org/2022/03/31/political-systems-survey-english/

    • Replies: @Yahya
    @Leaves No Shadow


    Just found this when I looked it up. It is highly predictive of the ongoing unrest and such a large sample size is very likely resulting in am accurate picture.
     
    Yes this is the survey that Laxa linked to; which I mentioned above. I’m skeptical of the survey since it was internet-based; and may have skewed towards a certain a segment of society. The organization conducting it was founded by Iranian expats in the West who tend to be anti-clerical; and it’s sole focus is on Iran; which may imply a political agenda. By contrast, the World Values Survey which I relied on for my data was conducted on an international level by a creditable organization; and they didn’t have any political axes to grind in Iran. It was merely one country out of 200 for them.

    I think many Westerners tend to engage in wishful thinking regarding Islamic countries; because they interact with upper-middle class expats who tend to be more secular. But the bumpkins are many in all Islamic countries; and just because they are not as visible; doesn’t mean they are few.

    Replies: @Leaves No Shadow

  635. @LatW
    @QCIC


    Most of the so-called “Russian threats to use nuclear weapons” are simply a reminder and the message is almost the opposite of a threat.
     
    Actually, no. There is some intelligence from the Kremlin that these threats are real and that Putin is psychologically ready to pull the plug. Thankfully, there are also some elements in the Russian secret services who are aware of the severity of this and are apparently preparing to circumvent the order (if it ever comes). Besides, which other nuclear state does this? I can only imagine your dismay if the US or any other Western country did this.

    Russia neither invented nuclear weapons nor used them in war.
     
    While the history of conventional wars is very long, the history of nuclear weapons is very short. Just because somebody used them once (under very different circumstances), doesn't mean that one should go around screaming about their readiness to use them on their propaganda program every night.

    Russia has no experience whatsoever of fighting a real nuclear war (with the exception of some trials in the Arctic a long time ago and some drills back in the 1980s where their intention was to put the weight of fighting in the contaminated areas on the peripheral troops of the Warsaw pact which are no longer available to them).

    Because the history of nuclear weapons has been so short, it might be wise to review once again what should be the universally acceptable behavior around these weapons. Nobody on the planet is interested in having someone around who constantly threatens their use for the purpose of minor (by world standards), deranged and old fashioned pseudo-imperial escapades. Just because Putin believes that a "world without Russia is not worth living in", doesn't mean the rest of the world agrees with that statement.


    They are simply reminding the idiots in the West that actions have consequences.
     
    This is the advice that they themselves should have heeded - they should have listened to their own General Staff who were against committing to a wide ranging "SMO". And it's not over yet. The consequences of when they lose can be even more severe than now or even just lose the Crimean corridor - Zaluzhny's troops are only 80kms from Melitopol, which is very close, given the distances covered in this war.

    What's more important is that nobody in the world needs this - the world doesn't accept this "escalate to deescalate" tactic that has been Russia's MO since the 1990s. For instance, a country such as China probably doesn't view this tactic favorably at all. Or even with respect.


    I am pointing out that conventional war of empires including economic war, statecraft, color revolutions, provocations, SMO, etc. can potentially have nuclear consequences.
     
    Nuclear states have lost conventional wars and have retreated - this is something that nuclear states should keep in mind when they start risky invasions of large or midsized foreign states with a strategically important position.

    You can't win a minor conventional war in your vicinity, it may be that you don't have what it takes to possess nuclear weapons?

    Replies: @QCIC

    Ok, we disagree.

    I have two sincere questions. In your opinion,

    1) If Maidan had not happened and Yanukovych stayed in place, where would things stand now in Ukraine and Russia?

    2) Same question, but also assume oligarchs and external forces had not been funding groups such as Azov, Right Sector, etc.?

    • Replies: @LatW
    @QCIC


    1) If Maidan had not happened and Yanukovych stayed in place, where would things stand now in Ukraine and Russia?
     
    It would've happened eventually in one form or another because there was always a pro-Ukrainian stream within Ukraine. There is also increased communication with the EU so those contacts were bound to grow (even if not to the extent that they have been built up now).

    Are you aware of the national awakenings in Eastern Europe in mid to late 19th century? The Ukrainians were bound to have a similar one as everyone else. Ukrainians, too, have agency.

    Yes it caused turmoil, maybe it is inevitable.


    2) Same question, but also assume oligarchs and external forces had not been funding groups such as Azov, Right Sector, etc.?
     
    You are uninformed about how Right Sector and Azov are created and who participates. These are simply nation wide militias. In essence, they are similar to Home Guard or National Guard in other countries, they just have a slightly different visual form. Most of Azov's funding comes from donations from middle class businesses. In the case of Angels of Azov (the fund for families) it comes from larger public.

    As to Right Sector, they are very, very modest, very Spartan and have been able to work with very little.

    Do you understand what a regional oligarch is in EE? Such as Kolomoisky or Taruta? It's just a very rich person who wants to defend his turf (often where he was born or grew up and where his assets are located) and chooses to side with this or that power.

    Replies: @QCIC

    , @LatW
    @QCIC

    Likewise, I have a question for you, too (rhetorical).

    If the Donbas militia were not armed by the RusFed and if the Russian troops had not intervened in the war during the summer of 2014, would the war have raged the way it did?

    If the Ukrainian special forces and the military police had entered Donbas in April 2014 (or even earlier, before the militia was fully equipped and armed) and arrested (or eliminated) most of the active Donbas militia, would there be a war?

    Replies: @Wokechoke, @QCIC

    , @LatW
    @QCIC


    Ok, we disagree.
     
    So you disagree that a country that is led by senile jerks should be allowed to threaten the whole world because some of its whims can not be fulfilled? Instead of them just moving on and the rest of the world being able to live peacefully?

    Replies: @QCIC

  636. @Leaves No Shadow
    @Yahya

    Just found this when I looked it up. It is highly predictive of the ongoing unrest and such a large sample size is very likely resulting in am accurate picture. It also feels rightnfrim those I've spoken with, for what that is worth.

    https://gamaan.org/2022/03/31/political-systems-survey-english/

    Replies: @Yahya

    Just found this when I looked it up. It is highly predictive of the ongoing unrest and such a large sample size is very likely resulting in am accurate picture.

    Yes this is the survey that Laxa linked to; which I mentioned above. I’m skeptical of the survey since it was internet-based; and may have skewed towards a certain a segment of society. The organization conducting it was founded by Iranian expats in the West who tend to be anti-clerical; and it’s sole focus is on Iran; which may imply a political agenda. By contrast, the World Values Survey which I relied on for my data was conducted on an international level by a creditable organization; and they didn’t have any political axes to grind in Iran. It was merely one country out of 200 for them.

    I think many Westerners tend to engage in wishful thinking regarding Islamic countries; because they interact with upper-middle class expats who tend to be more secular. But the bumpkins are many in all Islamic countries; and just because they are not as visible; doesn’t mean they are few.

    • Replies: @Leaves No Shadow
    @Yahya

    Evaluation of sources by past predictive power:

    A person who read the survey I provided would have been unsurprised by the still ongoing protests, even in the dead of winter, in an often bitterly cold country, but someone who read yours would have been shocked.

    Boldly going on the record:

    The Iranian governing apparatus won't last the year, no matter how many more women they beat to death in the street. By the end of spring, even you will agree.

    WVS Database:

    The 2020 WVS Survey was conducted from Britain. Previously, it was always in Irany. They were obviously blocked and didn't change their methodology for reasons of not wanting to rock the boat for the future. Their results are meaningless.

    Gamaan:

    The collection method, given the sample size, is fine for this survey. Statistics is magic if done well. And you don't need to be brilliant to do it well. Think of all of the polls and how obscenely accurate they are. People complain and call the liars if they are 3% off! I would complain and call a shop liars if I went there during a "sale" and the discount was 15%, nevermind 3%.

    Personal biases:

    I think people like you have a bias towards ordinary people remaining stupid bumpkins. It puts people like you in a more powerful position as a mediating middle-man. It also imbues a positive self-image for you as cultured yet grounded. Nothing wrong with this, but I think it rather changes your perception of reality and will result in you being surprised. This is a common phenomenon throughout the world. Even George Orwell spoke of the proles the same way. It is the self-flattering fantasy of genuinely open-minded and compassionate elites, by which I exclude progressives.

    Replies: @Yahya, @A123

  637. @QCIC
    @LatW

    Ok, we disagree.

    I have two sincere questions. In your opinion,

    1) If Maidan had not happened and Yanukovych stayed in place, where would things stand now in Ukraine and Russia?

    2) Same question, but also assume oligarchs and external forces had not been funding groups such as Azov, Right Sector, etc.?

    Replies: @LatW, @LatW, @LatW

    1) If Maidan had not happened and Yanukovych stayed in place, where would things stand now in Ukraine and Russia?

    It would’ve happened eventually in one form or another because there was always a pro-Ukrainian stream within Ukraine. There is also increased communication with the EU so those contacts were bound to grow (even if not to the extent that they have been built up now).

    Are you aware of the national awakenings in Eastern Europe in mid to late 19th century? The Ukrainians were bound to have a similar one as everyone else. Ukrainians, too, have agency.

    Yes it caused turmoil, maybe it is inevitable.

    2) Same question, but also assume oligarchs and external forces had not been funding groups such as Azov, Right Sector, etc.?

    You are uninformed about how Right Sector and Azov are created and who participates. These are simply nation wide militias. In essence, they are similar to Home Guard or National Guard in other countries, they just have a slightly different visual form. Most of Azov’s funding comes from donations from middle class businesses. In the case of Angels of Azov (the fund for families) it comes from larger public.

    As to Right Sector, they are very, very modest, very Spartan and have been able to work with very little.

    Do you understand what a regional oligarch is in EE? Such as Kolomoisky or Taruta? It’s just a very rich person who wants to defend his turf (often where he was born or grew up and where his assets are located) and chooses to side with this or that power.

    • Replies: @QCIC
    @LatW

    Thanks for replying.

    I'm aware that EE has a rich history with interactions and clashes between cultures, empires, and religions but am not familiar with many details. I was aware of Ukrainian awakenings in the 19th century.

    As far as your comments on Azov and oligarchs, this makes sense, but there seems to be more to it from what I have read. However, I simply think they are used as pawns in a larger and more dangerous process.

  638. @QCIC
    @LatW

    Ok, we disagree.

    I have two sincere questions. In your opinion,

    1) If Maidan had not happened and Yanukovych stayed in place, where would things stand now in Ukraine and Russia?

    2) Same question, but also assume oligarchs and external forces had not been funding groups such as Azov, Right Sector, etc.?

    Replies: @LatW, @LatW, @LatW

    Likewise, I have a question for you, too (rhetorical).

    If the Donbas militia were not armed by the RusFed and if the Russian troops had not intervened in the war during the summer of 2014, would the war have raged the way it did?

    If the Ukrainian special forces and the military police had entered Donbas in April 2014 (or even earlier, before the militia was fully equipped and armed) and arrested (or eliminated) most of the active Donbas militia, would there be a war?

    • Replies: @Wokechoke
    @LatW

    The British and American governments will not allow Russia to operate a warm weather port. By hook or by crook they will always attempt to close down Sevastopol and Kerch. Even if it takes 100 years. A large Russian fleet is a strategic dagger pointed at the ocean going dominance of the English speaking peoples.

    Replies: @LatW

    , @QCIC
    @LatW

    Good question. The following is speculation.

    If the build up to 2014 had been truly organic (no external meddling) I can imagine a tiny chance that a negotiated coexistence might have been possible. However, I think it was not organic and the activities of the Ukrainian nationalist movement were strongly fostered by the West. Because this took place I think what followed was predictable, though not inevitable.

    I think Crimea was always a huge challenge for a negotiated resolution. I wonder if a supremely wise Ukrainian leader could have negotiated it away as not so crucial to the Ukrainian ideal in exchange for more important commitments from Russia? Unfortunately, that may be too big a leap for any politician to make (maybe this was tried, I don't know).

    Is a tough problem for the Ukrainians. So much Soviet blood was spilled in Ukraine that giving it up is probably unthinkable for much of the Russian leadership. I think there may have been room for some sort of negotiated Ukrainian homeland but the pressures against this were very strong. The association of Bandera followers with Nazism is very unfortunate in terms of the clash of mythologies.

    Replies: @LatW

  639. @LatW
    @QCIC

    Likewise, I have a question for you, too (rhetorical).

    If the Donbas militia were not armed by the RusFed and if the Russian troops had not intervened in the war during the summer of 2014, would the war have raged the way it did?

    If the Ukrainian special forces and the military police had entered Donbas in April 2014 (or even earlier, before the militia was fully equipped and armed) and arrested (or eliminated) most of the active Donbas militia, would there be a war?

    Replies: @Wokechoke, @QCIC

    The British and American governments will not allow Russia to operate a warm weather port. By hook or by crook they will always attempt to close down Sevastopol and Kerch. Even if it takes 100 years. A large Russian fleet is a strategic dagger pointed at the ocean going dominance of the English speaking peoples.

    • Replies: @LatW
    @Wokechoke


    The British and American governments will not allow Russia to operate a warm weather port. By hook or by crook they will always attempt to close down Sevastopol and Kerch.
     
    The Russians were operating it prior to 2014. So the British allowed it then. Even with Maidan changing things, there should've been a more civilized approach to it. Something that doesn't set a bad precedent.

    The problem is that RusFed were trying to dominate the whole of Black Sea and through this have influence further into the Mediterranean. Not to mention disrupting commerce. Surely, the British would not look keenly on this, but there are others, too, who would have an issue with this, as this is simply too much. This is not because the British / NATO should be there (maybe they shouldn't) but the way that Russia wanted to set it up is not balanced either. It's against the spirit of the times to have Sevastopol as a closed city (not to mention the violation of Ukraine's legal borders).

    Hypothetically, one could've even created some kind of a mutual Ukro-Russian cooperation in Sevastopol, similar to the rotational presidency in the EU. Just an idea, maybe not realistic (as there is no trust). It's moot now anyway.

    Moreover, an amicable Russia could have had access to unfreezing ports elsewhere. What they chose to do may have looked like a safer bet in 2014, but in the longer term it may not be.
  640. @QCIC
    @LatW

    Ok, we disagree.

    I have two sincere questions. In your opinion,

    1) If Maidan had not happened and Yanukovych stayed in place, where would things stand now in Ukraine and Russia?

    2) Same question, but also assume oligarchs and external forces had not been funding groups such as Azov, Right Sector, etc.?

    Replies: @LatW, @LatW, @LatW

    Ok, we disagree.

    So you disagree that a country that is led by senile jerks should be allowed to threaten the whole world because some of its whims can not be fulfilled? Instead of them just moving on and the rest of the world being able to live peacefully?

    • Replies: @QCIC
    @LatW

    I don't think this is an accurate characterization of the situation. If it were, I would agree!

    But hope springs eternal. Maybe after the dust has settled some wise souls on all sides will learn the lessons and create something fair and just or at least try to accommodate the different perspectives and responsibilities.

  641. @RSDB
    @HeavilyMarbledSteak

    I'm with Maud Diver on liking the old India but I'm not with Maud Diver on liking shooting into crowds.


    As for assessing someone’s spirituality, surely there’s no harm in giving ones impressions provided one doesn’t do it too humorlessly.
     
    You and I assess harm differently so I am not talking about harm-- I am just talking about whether our assessments of that sort of thing over the internet mean much or not. You were praising Talha to the skies and then accusing him of being the kind of person who would beat his wife so maybe these sorts of assessments are just a little off kilter some of the time.

    I wouldn’t say the women in that book their time belonged to their husbands – they were extremely devoted to their husbands and willingly served their interests, but the relationships were remarkably equal and their husbands were just as devoted to them.

     

    No, but I'd say it's one possible interpretation that their time belonged to their husbands in a way their husbands' time did not belong to them, and from that passage the author is leaning towards my interpretation. But it's really a question of interpretation after all. Anyway there's something valuable in remembering to describe being a woman as something important and distinct in its own right.

    And I don't have anything to add to what Ivashka/Bashi wrote about that passage, which is excellent.

    Really enjoying your travelogues. It seems like you've had some luck beating the winter in the tropics, although personally I find you write more movingly about your trips in the US somehow.

    Replies: @HeavilyMarbledSteak

    Definitely agree about the shooting into crowds. I didn’t understand your point I now see – you’re saying it’s strange for someone with such obvious affection for India to not condemn such an obvious crime against her. I’d agree with that.

    You were praising Talha to the skies and then accusing him of being the kind of person who would beat his wife so maybe these sorts of assessments are just a little off kilter some of the time.

    That’s actually an excellent point and I’d have to agree with you and withdraw my former objections 🙂

    Although the wife beating thing was meant more figuratively than literally, as I grew to know Talha better I did eventually come to a completely different assessment of him. He was a huge disappoinment to me.

    Not just him – Tritelia Laxa I also had a hugely favorable impression of initially, only to eventually conclude that she exhibited the symptoms of a genuine, bona fide sociopath. (Although here I go again making strong judgements based on some internet posts lol).

    I think I’m just a sucker for people who present themselves as “good”, because it’s so rare especially on this site, but of course that’s an easy way to be manipulated and duped 🙂

    But yeah, I should take my judgements with a grain of salt, we should.

    Even though, I’d like both Laxa and Talha to comment on this site again. Banning Laxa was silly – once you understand her she’s harmless, and they both added color and entertainment.

    Anyway there’s something valuable in remembering to describe being a woman as something important and distinct in its own right.

    Yes, I’m not a fan of the obliteration of distinctions in modern times.

    Only, I’d say the kind of repose and passivity described in that passage is also very important to being a man and featured largely in every spiritual tradition.

    Really enjoying your travelogues. It seems like you’ve had some luck beating the winter in the tropics, although personally I find you write more movingly about your trips in the US somehow.

    Thank you kindly.

    Yes, I think you’ve picked up on the fact that while I appreciate it, I’m not as passionate about tropical nature as I am about the the nature of the American West, which moves me much more.

    I travel to SEA or India more to experience the utterly different human cultures, and to see rural life fitting in with nature, and only secondarily enjoy the nature in itself, because I can’t go anywhere without doing that 🙂

    • Thanks: RSDB
  642. @LatW
    @QCIC


    1) If Maidan had not happened and Yanukovych stayed in place, where would things stand now in Ukraine and Russia?
     
    It would've happened eventually in one form or another because there was always a pro-Ukrainian stream within Ukraine. There is also increased communication with the EU so those contacts were bound to grow (even if not to the extent that they have been built up now).

    Are you aware of the national awakenings in Eastern Europe in mid to late 19th century? The Ukrainians were bound to have a similar one as everyone else. Ukrainians, too, have agency.

    Yes it caused turmoil, maybe it is inevitable.


    2) Same question, but also assume oligarchs and external forces had not been funding groups such as Azov, Right Sector, etc.?
     
    You are uninformed about how Right Sector and Azov are created and who participates. These are simply nation wide militias. In essence, they are similar to Home Guard or National Guard in other countries, they just have a slightly different visual form. Most of Azov's funding comes from donations from middle class businesses. In the case of Angels of Azov (the fund for families) it comes from larger public.

    As to Right Sector, they are very, very modest, very Spartan and have been able to work with very little.

    Do you understand what a regional oligarch is in EE? Such as Kolomoisky or Taruta? It's just a very rich person who wants to defend his turf (often where he was born or grew up and where his assets are located) and chooses to side with this or that power.

    Replies: @QCIC

    Thanks for replying.

    I’m aware that EE has a rich history with interactions and clashes between cultures, empires, and religions but am not familiar with many details. I was aware of Ukrainian awakenings in the 19th century.

    As far as your comments on Azov and oligarchs, this makes sense, but there seems to be more to it from what I have read. However, I simply think they are used as pawns in a larger and more dangerous process.

  643. @sudden death
    @Ron Unz


    (A) he’s basically correct or (B) he’s gone insane.
     
    (C) he's getting paid.

    Replies: @AP, @LondonBob, @Mikel

    (C) he’s getting paid.

    (F) Nah, he’s just built a community of followers that like what he says and keeps repeating the same message for his loyal audience, with small variations according to the latest events. Same phenomenon as Saker and Martyanov, who don’t seem to be very well off, especially the former.

  644. @AP
    @Mikel


    "if anything, our ancestors’ limitation made them be less confident in their technological and observational prowess and and therefore less prone to the irrational Scientism belief."

    That is a fair point. Not being subject to the overwhelming stream of rational knowledge that science gives us, perhaps they had better intuitions about the deep meaning of life.
     
    It's more like, not being distracted by the dazzling ability to do stuff in the material world and the material things that science provides.

    But I am skeptical. The farther one goes in time the more primitive and elementary religions appear.
     
    The Greek, Hindu, Buddhist, Christian, Islamic thought did not seem to be be particularly primitive. If anything, modern thinkers are rather shallow compared to the earlier ones. The poster child of modern atheism, Richard Dawkins, is on the level of a university undergraduate. But the religious thinkers can be ignored by the masses who are more interested in physical wonders.

    "If God were to incarnate, it would be in the center of the most populated part of the world, near East and West. A place like Palestine."

    We must have discussed this before. If God’s goal really was to maximize the reach of his message and minimize sin in the world, He would have just revealed Himself to every human on the planet, instead of sending an emissary that even most of the people around him failed to find convincing and many more never even heard of for centuries
     
    He did not want to interfere with humans' will, so He provided the means to maximum access but without forcing the matter. The miracles He performed seem to have had a primarily didactic purpose.

    By not doing the obvious, God just condemned many millions of humans to Hell and perpetuated all the sins he wanted to prevent in a totally unnecessary way.
     
    IIRC Christ liberated those who never had access to Him so people not yet exposed to His light are not necessarily condemned. For the others, it's a freely made choice.

    Replies: @Sher Singh, @Mikel

    He did not want to interfere with humans’ will, so He provided the means to maximum access but without forcing the matter.

    Too convoluted to believe. Being God, He could have easily chosen any method to repeat His message: a worldwide appearance in the sky, a collective dream, a synchronous apparition to every human being, the possibilities are endless. And that would have guaranteed that indeed sinners would sin out of free will, rather than ignorance or following wrong messages from other religions. By playing hide and seek, to borrow Woody Allen’s words, the end result is much more sin in the world He created. Let’s also remember that when He delivered His earlier message to Moses He chose to select just one tribe of humans as the destinataries at a time when they weren’t particularly interconnected to multiple civilizations.

    • Replies: @AP
    @Mikel


    Too convoluted to believe. Being God, He could have easily chosen any method to repeat His message: a worldwide appearance in the sky, a collective dream, a synchronous apparition to every human being, the possibilities are endless.
     
    Being incarnated as a human (particularly, one of modest means) was of particular importance specific to the nature of the faith. Being born to a poor woman and suffering crucifixion was probably the most direct and strongest way to help people to choose to utterly transform how they viewed one another and their role in the universe.

    Let’s also remember that when He delivered His earlier message to Moses He chose to select just one tribe of humans as the destinataries at a time when they weren’t particularly interconnected to multiple civilizations.
     
    The main purpose of the first message was to set the stage for the later, more important one. It was sufficient.
    , @Coconuts
    @Mikel


    Being God, He could have easily chosen any method to repeat His message: a worldwide appearance in the sky, a collective dream, a synchronous apparition to every human being, the possibilities are endless. And that would have guaranteed that indeed sinners would sin out of free will, rather than ignorance or following wrong messages from other religions.
     
    I think if you try to explain the detail of these endless possibilities (when they are like things appearing in the sky or physical apparitions) you find none of them are really convincing evidence for God.

    Dawkins himself admitted this in a later interview when the question of alien activity and the activity of powerful spiritual beings (but not God) was raised.

    Sceptical escalation is always possible, from a sceptical perspective doubting the existence of an external world or the existence of human persons and minds (including your own) is plausible, never mind doubting something like God.

    Imo it seems to point to the conclusion that the only evidence for God, if you are working from an empiricist and nominalist starting point, is direct divine revelation to each individual in a way that eliminated all possibility of doubt or question. Maybe implanting knowledge directly into people's minds. Knowledge of this sort, say of God's infinite perfection and infinite being and his place as the fulfilment of human life would tend to preclude sin; there is no sin in heaven.

    OTOH if you are not an empiricist or a nominalist there are more arguments to be found for God in everyday human experience, outside miraculous events.

    Replies: @Mikel

  645. @A123
    @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms

    The shedding transmission method they are talking about implies substantial exposure via fluid transfer. Could the experimental mRNA vaxx jump to another individual using an STD like mechanism? It is an interesting question. It would be prudent for pure bloods to avoid having sex with recently booster jabbed mud bloods.

    Without a full virus to drive replication, passing spike/mRNA via inhalation in a shared space is not something that I would be concerned about. Yes. One might breathe in a spike or two, however that is not enough to create an immune system reaction.

    PEACE 😇

    Replies: @Barbarossa

    The “pure blood” thing is obnoxious and mirrors the same attitude as the Covid paranoiacs. You may say it’s just to give them a taste of their own medicine (har har) but it’s easy enough for a Larp like this to become entrenched.

    • Replies: @A123
    @Barbarossa


    The “pure blood” thing is obnoxious and mirrors the same attitude as the Covid paranoiacs. You may say it’s just to give them a taste of their own medicine
     
    Well yes... "Pure Blood" versus "Mud Blood" is a rhetorical two-fer. Not only does it annoy the SJW's with cold, hard facts -- It also is a call out to JK Rowling who has agitated the Leftoids by not blindly obeying their fatwas.

    This one is likely to stick for good reason though.

    The science on inherited impact will be cloudy for at least a decade. The young, who have yet to conceive children, have a sound genetic bias for "Pure Blood" marriages.

    PEACE 😇
    ________

    Rule 5: "Ridicule Is Man's Most Potent Weapon"
    Rules For Radicals, Saul Alinsky

  646. @A123
    @HeavilyMarbledSteak

    How about this nature video?

    I am gobsmacked.

    PEACE 😇

    https://youtu.be/dSBs5h_3J3I

    Replies: @Emil Nikola Richard, @HeavilyMarbledSteak

    That’s amazing, thanks!

  647. @Beckow
    @AP


    ...That is irrelevant because it is subject to personal delusions or wishful thinking.
     
    What? That is a non-answer, it means literally nothing because it can be said about anything.

    French may have thought that “liberating” Alsace-Lorraine and avenging the loss at Sedan was worth the cost. But objectively...
     
    Stop there: THEY WON. They still have Alsace-Lorraine and I doubt you would find more than a few dozen weirdos in France who would had preferred to lose WW1. You are really reaching now, France won WW1 - how is that a 'delusion'? The costs of all wars are high - the costs exist whether you win or lose, when you lose it is much worse. What are you hallucinating about?

    but will have lost...
     
    You are arguing that a 150 million country with 1/4 of world resources and a bright future because of that natural wealth has no right to decide what is an appropriate cost to maintain its security and protect its co-ethnics in Ukraine. Are you saying that Russia can't decide that using 1%, or even 5-10%, is worth it? But that's what all countries do, all wars are like that. The Ukie losses will be an order of magnitude higher, why dont you ask that question of them? Is 'being in Nato' and 'suppressing the Russian minority' worth destroying 20-30% of their country and about 100k dead Ukies by now?

    Rest of your comment is infantile and badly presented, I will just let you be embarrassed by it - no need to address a fool who knows nothing about this region. Suffice to say there is no heroism in dying for a losing cause. It is just stupid. You cheering on the stupid people is quite despicable. A fool on a hill over the horizon...

    Replies: @Wokechoke, @AP

    “French may have thought that “liberating” Alsace-Lorraine and avenging the loss at Sedan was worth the cost. But objectively…”

    Stop there: THEY WON.

    They lost at the famous battle of Sedan, where their leader was captured by the Germans. You are even more ignorant than I realized.

    The French were seething about that loss and eagerly got themselves into World War I.

    They still have Alsace-Lorraine and I doubt you would find more than a few dozen weirdos in France who would had preferred to lose WW1

    Any Frenchman capable of thought (unlike you) would have preferred for France not to have fought in World War I. France’s victory was a Pyrrhic one: France was terminally weakened by it. Only about 20 years later it would collapse in 6 weeks, and soon after it would lose the empire that it had built over centuries.

    The Ukie losses will be an order of magnitude higher, why dont you ask that question of them? Is ‘being in Nato’ and ‘suppressing the Russian minority’ worth destroying 20-30% of their country

    The Ukrainian people decided that they do not want to be controlled by Russia and they are willing to fight for that at the risk of death. Poles understand Ukrainians, but you, a natural lackey, will never understand that. As you helpfully confirm with each of your comments like this one.

    • Agree: Mr. Hack
  648. @LatW
    @QCIC

    Likewise, I have a question for you, too (rhetorical).

    If the Donbas militia were not armed by the RusFed and if the Russian troops had not intervened in the war during the summer of 2014, would the war have raged the way it did?

    If the Ukrainian special forces and the military police had entered Donbas in April 2014 (or even earlier, before the militia was fully equipped and armed) and arrested (or eliminated) most of the active Donbas militia, would there be a war?

    Replies: @Wokechoke, @QCIC

    Good question. The following is speculation.

    If the build up to 2014 had been truly organic (no external meddling) I can imagine a tiny chance that a negotiated coexistence might have been possible. However, I think it was not organic and the activities of the Ukrainian nationalist movement were strongly fostered by the West. Because this took place I think what followed was predictable, though not inevitable.

    I think Crimea was always a huge challenge for a negotiated resolution. I wonder if a supremely wise Ukrainian leader could have negotiated it away as not so crucial to the Ukrainian ideal in exchange for more important commitments from Russia? Unfortunately, that may be too big a leap for any politician to make (maybe this was tried, I don’t know).

    Is a tough problem for the Ukrainians. So much Soviet blood was spilled in Ukraine that giving it up is probably unthinkable for much of the Russian leadership. I think there may have been room for some sort of negotiated Ukrainian homeland but the pressures against this were very strong. The association of Bandera followers with Nazism is very unfortunate in terms of the clash of mythologies.

    • Replies: @LatW
    @QCIC


    If the build up to 2014 had been truly organic (no external meddling) I can imagine a tiny chance that a negotiated coexistence might have been possible.
     
    This was organic, the Europeans live quite close to each other so in a way it is natural that some of the neighbors supported Maidan (most didn't realize it would lead to physical altercations). It is normal to look for external help sometimes, however, your camp is trying to deny that there was an organic, local movement that was significant enough. And your ideological camp seems to ignore when these get squashed violently and then you pretend as if it was never there ("solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant - create a desert and call it peace"). This is a familiar MO. Possibly in Ukraine's case it happened several times before (such as when some Stalin sympathizing Western diplomats pretended that the Holodomor was not taking place).

    And even if there is what you call external meddling, do the Ukrainians not have a right to go out and express their political will? And then call for help from those who are like minded?

    the activities of the Ukrainian nationalist movement were strongly fostered by the West
     
    A nationalist movement grows from within. Where a healthy male child is born, there is a nationalist movement.

    These activities are objectively there and they express the will of the people, similar to how it has been in other EE countries.

    I think Crimea was always a huge challenge for a negotiated resolution
     
    Crimea may be challenging due to its history (there are many influences there, of several nationalities). Because there are many such cases, we stick to the principle of territorial integrity. If one is going to renegotiate borders, like Russia tried to, then this opens a Pandora's box essentially and in that case we need to renegotiate the status of, for example, places such as Kaliningrad as well. And probably several other issues that were left behind in 1991 (such as the repatriation of Russians from the former USSR).

    I wonder if a supremely wise Ukrainian leader could have negotiated it away
     
    No leader who "negotiates away" territory is wise. In a democracy or a land defined by the Cossack spirit of freedom, one cannot make those decisions single handedly. No matter who they are - the president or some State Department official. The people will raise a Maidan if you go against their will - this is how it works there.

    You sound very hasty as to dole out other people's territory. If others started dividing and carving up your people's territory, your people would be up in arms (as they have been historically).

    so crucial to the Ukrainian ideal in exchange for more important commitments from Russia?
     
    Russia rarely makes commitments when it comes to what she believes is "historical Russia". Russia has not learned to respect others. What you write is very naive.


    Unfortunately, that may be too big a leap for any politician to make (maybe this was tried, I don’t know).
     
    One must treat Russia as a force of Nature. As weather. One prepares for bad weather and calamities. If they don't, they will have to endure it.

    So much Soviet blood was spilled in Ukraine that giving it up is probably unthinkable for much of the Russian leadership
     
    The blood that was spilled was Ukrainian. Ukrainians spilled their blood so that Russians wouldn't be invaded by genocidal Germans. So did others by the way that RusFed and the likes of you conveniently forget about.

    I think there may have been room for some sort of negotiated Ukrainian homeland
     
    There is absolutely nothing to negotiate. The Ukrainian homeland is where Ukrainians have lived historically, since ancient times. The Ukrainians have historically lived in both Slobozhanshchyna (N.Eastern Ukraine) and even in southern Russia.

    You do not break into another person's house and then start negotiating which room belongs to them or not. When you do this by force, you risk being subjected to international law. Above all, when you start doing this, others may start doing it too and sometimes even to you.

    Replies: @QCIC

  649. @Wokechoke
    @LatW

    The British and American governments will not allow Russia to operate a warm weather port. By hook or by crook they will always attempt to close down Sevastopol and Kerch. Even if it takes 100 years. A large Russian fleet is a strategic dagger pointed at the ocean going dominance of the English speaking peoples.

    Replies: @LatW

    The British and American governments will not allow Russia to operate a warm weather port. By hook or by crook they will always attempt to close down Sevastopol and Kerch.

    The Russians were operating it prior to 2014. So the British allowed it then. Even with Maidan changing things, there should’ve been a more civilized approach to it. Something that doesn’t set a bad precedent.

    The problem is that RusFed were trying to dominate the whole of Black Sea and through this have influence further into the Mediterranean. Not to mention disrupting commerce. Surely, the British would not look keenly on this, but there are others, too, who would have an issue with this, as this is simply too much. This is not because the British / NATO should be there (maybe they shouldn’t) but the way that Russia wanted to set it up is not balanced either. It’s against the spirit of the times to have Sevastopol as a closed city (not to mention the violation of Ukraine’s legal borders).

    Hypothetically, one could’ve even created some kind of a mutual Ukro-Russian cooperation in Sevastopol, similar to the rotational presidency in the EU. Just an idea, maybe not realistic (as there is no trust). It’s moot now anyway.

    Moreover, an amicable Russia could have had access to unfreezing ports elsewhere. What they chose to do may have looked like a safer bet in 2014, but in the longer term it may not be.

  650. @Mikel
    @AP


    He did not want to interfere with humans’ will, so He provided the means to maximum access but without forcing the matter.
     
    Too convoluted to believe. Being God, He could have easily chosen any method to repeat His message: a worldwide appearance in the sky, a collective dream, a synchronous apparition to every human being, the possibilities are endless. And that would have guaranteed that indeed sinners would sin out of free will, rather than ignorance or following wrong messages from other religions. By playing hide and seek, to borrow Woody Allen's words, the end result is much more sin in the world He created. Let's also remember that when He delivered His earlier message to Moses He chose to select just one tribe of humans as the destinataries at a time when they weren't particularly interconnected to multiple civilizations.

    Replies: @AP, @Coconuts

    Too convoluted to believe. Being God, He could have easily chosen any method to repeat His message: a worldwide appearance in the sky, a collective dream, a synchronous apparition to every human being, the possibilities are endless.

    Being incarnated as a human (particularly, one of modest means) was of particular importance specific to the nature of the faith. Being born to a poor woman and suffering crucifixion was probably the most direct and strongest way to help people to choose to utterly transform how they viewed one another and their role in the universe.

    Let’s also remember that when He delivered His earlier message to Moses He chose to select just one tribe of humans as the destinataries at a time when they weren’t particularly interconnected to multiple civilizations.

    The main purpose of the first message was to set the stage for the later, more important one. It was sufficient.

  651. @LatW
    @QCIC


    Ok, we disagree.
     
    So you disagree that a country that is led by senile jerks should be allowed to threaten the whole world because some of its whims can not be fulfilled? Instead of them just moving on and the rest of the world being able to live peacefully?

    Replies: @QCIC

    I don’t think this is an accurate characterization of the situation. If it were, I would agree!

    But hope springs eternal. Maybe after the dust has settled some wise souls on all sides will learn the lessons and create something fair and just or at least try to accommodate the different perspectives and responsibilities.

  652. @Beckow
    @LatW

    It might be different, but much more likely it will not. I have noticed that even AP is switching to a Galician homeland strategy, quite a climb-down. But with "IT" and "gas fields", no less. This is getting comical.

    My point is simple: for Kiev this is a stupid un-winnable war they could have avoided. The Ukie casualties and the desperate rush of weapons are not a sign of strength. There is a very small chance that it escalates into a nuclear war or that Russia collapses internally. But the overwhelming odds are that eventually Russia will win. What the f..k are you going to do then? Why was the un-winnable nonsense provoked? This definitely doesn't benefit anyone in the region, least of all the hapless bleeding Ukies.

    Replies: @LatW, @AP

    It might be different, but much more likely it will not. I have noticed that even AP is switching to a Galician homeland strategy, quite a climb-down.

    You are lying as usual.

    I made very clear what the likely outcome will be.

    My point is simple: for Kiev this is a stupid un-winnable war they could have avoided.

    Like Slovakia during World War II, Ukraine could have accepted a status as a puppet and lackey.

    Instead, Ukraine decided to fight in order to prevent that.

  653. @Mikel
    @HeavilyMarbledSteak

    Thanks a lot for those descriptions. The pictures I've seen of the mountains in Central Idaho gave me the impression of a Canadian type of environment but it sounds like the West Coast ranges get the bulk of the humidity from the Pacific storms, leaving just the scraps for the rest of us in the West. But how productive scraps!

    I've actually crossed eastern Idaho on my way to Yellowstone and the landscapes there are definitely more nordic than in Utah but now I'm wondering what I should visit first, the more accessible Idaho Rockies or the remote Wind Rivers. I'll have to study Summitpost for an assessment of the mountain objectives in both areas.



    I was thinking if this was America or Europe there would be dozens of hiking trails ascending all the peaks, but here no one bothered.
     
    I wouldn't be so sure of that. I was surprised to see how wild much of the center of the small island of Oahu, the most populated one in Hawaii, is. They have built trails here and there, of course, but tropical jungles are unforgiving. They cover everything in no time. I didn't feel the desire to climb those misty, jungle-covered mountains though. Even if I didn't have an allergy to mosquitoes, bushwhacking your way through impenetrable vegetation is not quite the way I've learned to enjoy nature. When I'm in the tropics I guess I turn into the typical beach and sun loving tourist.

    I'll watch the video with the guy in the van tonight and let YT suggest what to follow it up with, they have me pretty well figured out already. When I was much younger the idea of living in a van or camper, or at least spending long times in it, was just fascinating. I remember discussing with my girlfriend what exact model we should buy but eventually life took a different turn. Now the idea is also more or less out of the question, even though I live in the best part of the world to put it in practice, but a good part of the fascination is still there.

    Replies: @HeavilyMarbledSteak

    Yeah, Robert D Kaplan in his book Earning the Rockies described the Mountain West as basically being a desert with oases, and I remember being incredulous – I read this well before I had travelled extensively in the West. But I’m beginning to see his point.

    I haven’t been there recently, but years ago I found some very verdant and lush places in western Montana – almost too much like the East Coast for my taste – and that narrow strip of Idaho that separates Montana from Washington had me driving through a gorgeous pine forest that was amazingly green and verdant.

    I don’t think you can go wrong with either the Idaho Rockies or the Winds 🙂 Both are incredible in their own right. However, the Winds have earned themselves a reputation as the finest slice of mountain scenery in the lower 48, and not without reason. But you do have to work harder to access that, so that’s a consideration.

    Nothing wrong with beaches and sun 🙂 These are pure sensuous pleasures that greatly add to the joy of life.

    Yes, I am and remain fascinated by van life, a modern form of nomadism. When I travel out West I basically live out of my small RAV4, so I’m doing SUV life for several months at a time. I love it on general but if I did it for longer, I think I’d really want something roomier and bigger so I’d get a van.

    I think van life and nomadism is one of the coolest trends to emerge recently and gives me hope.

    You and your wife could always retire to van life 🙂 Some of these vans can be amazingly luxurious and we’ll appointed. It can be a modernized version of Hindus taking to wandering the mountains on old age.

    • Replies: @Sher Singh
    @HeavilyMarbledSteak

    The Sword is not literal bro

    "ਇਉਂ ਤੀਸਰ ਪੰਥ ਚਲਾਇਅਨ ਵਡ ਸੂਰ ਗਹੇਲਾ ।।
    In this way, the third Panth was created of mighty intoxicated warriors

    ਵਾਹ ਵਾਹ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਸਿੰਘ ਆਪੇ ਗੁਰੁ ਚੇਲਾ ।।
    Wow! Bravo to Gobind Singh, the Guru and himself the disciple"

    "ਸੁਤ ਸਿੱਖਨ ਕੀ ਬੀਰਤਾ ਪਿਖਿ ਗੁਰੁ ਹ੍ਵੈ ਪ੍ਰਸੰਨ ।
    ਕਹ੍ਯੋ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਮੁਖ ਤੈ ਤਬੈ ਭਏ ਜਨਮ ਇਨਿ ਧੰਨ੍ਯ ।65।
    Seeing the bravery of his Sikh sons, the Guru became pleased,
    at that point from their Exalted Mouth they said, "Their life has been blessed

    ਜੋ ਨਰ ਰਣ ਮੈਂ ਸੰਮੁਖ ਹ੍ਵੈ ਲਰਿ ਅਰਿ ਸੋਂ ਤਨ ਦੇਤ ।
    ਭਗਤ ਜੁਗੀਸ ਜੁ ਪਦ ਲਹੈਂ ਸੋ ਪਦ ਵਹਿ ਜਨ ਲੇਤ ।66।
    Those who fight face on in the battle, fighting and dying, giving their body.
    The states [of liberation] that bhakts [devotees] & master yogis receive, these warriors seize that position""

    https://www.instagram.com/p/Cam9_igpoKj/

    https://www.instagram.com/p/ChNWtwqJsaB/

    https://www.instagram.com/p/CXuhEDNlmG7/

    https://www.instagram.com/p/ChdD6tPva47/

    https://www.instagram.com/p/CeSnYOfLcCC/

    Replies: @HeavilyMarbledSteak

    , @Mikel
    @HeavilyMarbledSteak


    When I travel out West I basically live out of my small RAV4
     
    It may not be as comfortable as the gorgeous van of the Youtube guy but I'm sure it's a luxury compared with the Seat 127 we used in the 80s to camp. We just folded the front seats back when it was time sleep and that was it.

    https://www.seat.com/content/dam/public/seat-website/company/news-and-events/company/seat-127/multimedia-gallery-01/from-the-seat-127-to-the-ibiza-01.jpg

    We were planning to upgrade to a Renault Nevada that we hoped would give us a long enough permanent sleeping space behind:

    https://s1.cdn.autoevolution.com/images/gallery/RENAULT-21-Nevada-5566_2.jpg

    But then life happened and the plan never materialized. As John Lennon masterfully put it, life is what happens while you're making plans for the future.

    I watched several videos of this funny guy of the van-camper. He seems to be more into computer games than nature but yes, those Idaho mountain views were very interesting. I think it looks like the Wasatch Back (eastern side of the range) and definitely drier than I expected. But I see the minimum temp last night in Stanley was -31F, quite colder than here. Another place I must visit as soon as I can.

    Replies: @HeavilyMarbledSteak

  654. @QCIC
    @LatW

    Good question. The following is speculation.

    If the build up to 2014 had been truly organic (no external meddling) I can imagine a tiny chance that a negotiated coexistence might have been possible. However, I think it was not organic and the activities of the Ukrainian nationalist movement were strongly fostered by the West. Because this took place I think what followed was predictable, though not inevitable.

    I think Crimea was always a huge challenge for a negotiated resolution. I wonder if a supremely wise Ukrainian leader could have negotiated it away as not so crucial to the Ukrainian ideal in exchange for more important commitments from Russia? Unfortunately, that may be too big a leap for any politician to make (maybe this was tried, I don't know).

    Is a tough problem for the Ukrainians. So much Soviet blood was spilled in Ukraine that giving it up is probably unthinkable for much of the Russian leadership. I think there may have been room for some sort of negotiated Ukrainian homeland but the pressures against this were very strong. The association of Bandera followers with Nazism is very unfortunate in terms of the clash of mythologies.

    Replies: @LatW

    If the build up to 2014 had been truly organic (no external meddling) I can imagine a tiny chance that a negotiated coexistence might have been possible.

    This was organic, the Europeans live quite close to each other so in a way it is natural that some of the neighbors supported Maidan (most didn’t realize it would lead to physical altercations). It is normal to look for external help sometimes, however, your camp is trying to deny that there was an organic, local movement that was significant enough. And your ideological camp seems to ignore when these get squashed violently and then you pretend as if it was never there (“solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant – create a desert and call it peace”). This is a familiar MO. Possibly in Ukraine’s case it happened several times before (such as when some Stalin sympathizing Western diplomats pretended that the Holodomor was not taking place).

    [MORE]

    And even if there is what you call external meddling, do the Ukrainians not have a right to go out and express their political will? And then call for help from those who are like minded?

    the activities of the Ukrainian nationalist movement were strongly fostered by the West

    A nationalist movement grows from within. Where a healthy male child is born, there is a nationalist movement.

    These activities are objectively there and they express the will of the people, similar to how it has been in other EE countries.

    I think Crimea was always a huge challenge for a negotiated resolution

    Crimea may be challenging due to its history (there are many influences there, of several nationalities). Because there are many such cases, we stick to the principle of territorial integrity. If one is going to renegotiate borders, like Russia tried to, then this opens a Pandora’s box essentially and in that case we need to renegotiate the status of, for example, places such as Kaliningrad as well. And probably several other issues that were left behind in 1991 (such as the repatriation of Russians from the former USSR).

    I wonder if a supremely wise Ukrainian leader could have negotiated it away

    No leader who “negotiates away” territory is wise. In a democracy or a land defined by the Cossack spirit of freedom, one cannot make those decisions single handedly. No matter who they are – the president or some State Department official. The people will raise a Maidan if you go against their will – this is how it works there.

    You sound very hasty as to dole out other people’s territory. If others started dividing and carving up your people’s territory, your people would be up in arms (as they have been historically).

    so crucial to the Ukrainian ideal in exchange for more important commitments from Russia?

    Russia rarely makes commitments when it comes to what she believes is “historical Russia”. Russia has not learned to respect others. What you write is very naive.

    Unfortunately, that may be too big a leap for any politician to make (maybe this was tried, I don’t know).

    One must treat Russia as a force of Nature. As weather. One prepares for bad weather and calamities. If they don’t, they will have to endure it.

    So much Soviet blood was spilled in Ukraine that giving it up is probably unthinkable for much of the Russian leadership

    The blood that was spilled was Ukrainian. Ukrainians spilled their blood so that Russians wouldn’t be invaded by genocidal Germans. So did others by the way that RusFed and the likes of you conveniently forget about.

    I think there may have been room for some sort of negotiated Ukrainian homeland

    There is absolutely nothing to negotiate. The Ukrainian homeland is where Ukrainians have lived historically, since ancient times. The Ukrainians have historically lived in both Slobozhanshchyna (N.Eastern Ukraine) and even in southern Russia.

    You do not break into another person’s house and then start negotiating which room belongs to them or not. When you do this by force, you risk being subjected to international law. Above all, when you start doing this, others may start doing it too and sometimes even to you.

    • Agree: Mr. Hack
    • Replies: @QCIC
    @LatW

    The Ukrainians can attempt to do whatever they want, but actions have consequences. The current mess in Ukraine seems to be a predictable outcome of Maidan and the troubles it led to in Donbass. It seems the Ukrainians underestimated the situation and made a major mistake. I think they misunderstood the role they play in the West's plan. Perhaps some saw it as a once in a lifetime opportunity to create the homeland you discuss, but what if they all end up dead? I think following a different path to pursue their goals would have been wiser. Maybe expecting that is too much to ask considering the number of wars which this region has seen. Fighting and dying is what the people know.

  655. @Emil Nikola Richard
    @Yahya

    Have you read Jorjani's Iranian Leviathan?

    He is a crackpot but the history of Iran/Persia/&c is pretty spectacular. He claims they are a modern educated people and less than 10% of them are going to the mosque every week and praying 5 times a day. He is proven a crackpot on a host of non-Iran topics. I have no clue if that carries over every where.

    Replies: @Yahya, @Yevardian

    He claims they are a modern educated people and less than 10% of them are going to the mosque every week and praying 5 times a day.

    These are common claims you hear from the Iranian diaspora in general. It’s definitely lower than the Arab world and Turkey but I’d probably conservatively double that percentage.

    Though if the country had not suffered the Imposed War or became an international pariah I have no doubt it would have at least converged with Turkey in terms of GDP and influence.

  656. @HeavilyMarbledSteak
    @Mikel

    Yeah, Robert D Kaplan in his book Earning the Rockies described the Mountain West as basically being a desert with oases, and I remember being incredulous - I read this well before I had travelled extensively in the West. But I'm beginning to see his point.

    I haven't been there recently, but years ago I found some very verdant and lush places in western Montana - almost too much like the East Coast for my taste - and that narrow strip of Idaho that separates Montana from Washington had me driving through a gorgeous pine forest that was amazingly green and verdant.

    I don't think you can go wrong with either the Idaho Rockies or the Winds :) Both are incredible in their own right. However, the Winds have earned themselves a reputation as the finest slice of mountain scenery in the lower 48, and not without reason. But you do have to work harder to access that, so that's a consideration.

    Nothing wrong with beaches and sun :) These are pure sensuous pleasures that greatly add to the joy of life.

    Yes, I am and remain fascinated by van life, a modern form of nomadism. When I travel out West I basically live out of my small RAV4, so I'm doing SUV life for several months at a time. I love it on general but if I did it for longer, I think I'd really want something roomier and bigger so I'd get a van.

    I think van life and nomadism is one of the coolest trends to emerge recently and gives me hope.

    You and your wife could always retire to van life :) Some of these vans can be amazingly luxurious and we'll appointed. It can be a modernized version of Hindus taking to wandering the mountains on old age.

    Replies: @Sher Singh, @Mikel

    The Sword is not literal bro

    “ਇਉਂ ਤੀਸਰ ਪੰਥ ਚਲਾਇਅਨ ਵਡ ਸੂਰ ਗਹੇਲਾ ।।
    In this way, the third Panth was created of mighty intoxicated warriors

    ਵਾਹ ਵਾਹ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਸਿੰਘ ਆਪੇ ਗੁਰੁ ਚੇਲਾ ।।
    Wow! Bravo to Gobind Singh, the Guru and himself the disciple”

    “ਸੁਤ ਸਿੱਖਨ ਕੀ ਬੀਰਤਾ ਪਿਖਿ ਗੁਰੁ ਹ੍ਵੈ ਪ੍ਰਸੰਨ ।
    ਕਹ੍ਯੋ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਮੁਖ ਤੈ ਤਬੈ ਭਏ ਜਨਮ ਇਨਿ ਧੰਨ੍ਯ ।65।
    Seeing the bravery of his Sikh sons, the Guru became pleased,
    at that point from their Exalted Mouth they said, “Their life has been blessed

    ਜੋ ਨਰ ਰਣ ਮੈਂ ਸੰਮੁਖ ਹ੍ਵੈ ਲਰਿ ਅਰਿ ਸੋਂ ਤਨ ਦੇਤ ।
    ਭਗਤ ਜੁਗੀਸ ਜੁ ਪਦ ਲਹੈਂ ਸੋ ਪਦ ਵਹਿ ਜਨ ਲੇਤ ।66।
    Those who fight face on in the battle, fighting and dying, giving their body.
    The states [of liberation] that bhakts [devotees] & master yogis receive, these warriors seize that position””

    • Replies: @HeavilyMarbledSteak
    @Sher Singh

    Is it possible, like a typical modern, you're influenced by the literalist movement that inevitably ends in nihilism? - I don't think Mr Singh you are giving us an accurate portrayal of Sikhism so much as you are giving us modernity :) This is something that is a problem for all religions these days, so don't be personally offended - AP is giving us modernity instead of Christianity no less than you.

    David Bentley Hart said if he couldn't be an Orthodox Christian, he'd be "perfectly happy being a Sikh" - somehow, I don't see him as taking up your religion of the double edged sword, though, and talking about worshipping weapons :)

    Somehow, I don't think the God described below literally wants us to worship weapons.


    To speak of “God” properly—in a way, that is, consonant with the teachings of orthodox Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Sikhism, Vedantic and Bhaktic Hinduism, Bahá’í, much of antique paganism, and so forth—is to speak of the one infinite ground of all that is: eternal, omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, uncreated, uncaused, perfectly transcendent of all things and for that very reason absolutely immanent to all things.

    God so understood is neither some particular thing posed over against the created universe, in addition to it, nor is he the universe itself. He is not a being, at least not in the way that a tree, a clock, or a god is; he is not one more object in the inventory of things that are. He is the infinite wellspring of all that is, in whom all things live and move and have their being. He may be said to be “beyond being,” if by “being” one means the totality of finite things, but also may be called “being itself,” in that he is the inexhaustible source of all reality, the absolute upon which the contingent is always utterly dependent, the unity underlying all things.

    To speak of “gods,” by contrast, is to speak only of a higher or more powerful or more splendid dimension of immanent reality. Any gods who might be out there do not transcend nature but belong to it. Their theogonies can be recounted—how they arose out of the primal night, or were born of other, more titanic progenitors, and so on—and in many cases their eventual demises foreseen. Each of them is a distinct being rather than “being itself,” and it is they who are dependent upon the universe for their existence rather than the reverse. Of such gods there may be an endless diversity, while of God there can be only one. Or, better, God is not merely one—not merely singular or unique—but is oneness as such, the sole act of being by which any finite thing exists and by which all things exist together.

    Obviously, then, it is the transcendent God in whom it is ultimately meaningful not to believe. The possibility of gods or spirits or angels or demons, and so on, is all very interesting to contemplate, but remains a question not of metaphysics but only of the taxonomy of nature (terrestrial, celestial, and chthonic). To be an atheist in the best modern sense, and so to be a truly intellectually and emotionally fulfilled naturalist in philosophy, one must genuinely succeed in not believing in God, with all the logical consequences this entails.
     

    Replies: @Sher Singh, @Coconuts, @Mr. Hack

  657. @A123
    @QCIC


    The second part of my reply was simply making conversation
     
    It came across as misleading and diversionary.

    You keep trying to dance away from the indisputable truth that America has little at stake and can easily walk away from the European Empire's over reach.


    This idea about starting a war to get out of political trouble has a long history. I mention it in the context of the SMO since nothing about the conflict is all that clear and keeping all explanatory options in mind is a good habit IMO.
     
    Sure. I now see the history you are going for. However it does not fit the current U.S. situation. Let us compare:

    • A charismatic leader, even a GW Bush (shudder), can wield a crisis to empower to their administration.
    • A lobotomite, gaffe prone, veggie-in-chief cannot possibly obtain anything from a foreign policy spectacle.

    Not-The-President Biden was not able to wring anything of value out of the larger WUHAN-19 virus crisis. Even his poor quality handlers would not repeat such an error. Hunter Biden's corrupt and inflammatory relationship with Ukrainian industry would make it an inevitable fiasco.
    __

    The more straightforward explanation is:

        • EU Globalists/European WEF made an error provoking Russia.
        • Europe pulled their puppet strings across the Atlantic.
        • Europe's servitor could not obtain a Declaration of War (or AUMF)
        • America's non-engagement was locked in
        • Europe snatched what it could from a "non-engagement" U.S.

    While they managed to obtain piles of cash, there was no war economy. There was no endless supply of munitions such as the lead up to WW II. There was no 'engagement'. And, there is no penalty for a simple common sense walk away.

    This should be chain of events that any foreign policy wonk can easily follow.

    PEACE 😇

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    And, there is no penalty for a simple common sense walk away.

    “common sense” appeaser talk again. As long as Ramirez still supports the Ukie side, you’ll end up in the trash heap of history, kremlinstoogeA123:

  658. @Sher Singh
    @HeavilyMarbledSteak

    The Sword is not literal bro

    "ਇਉਂ ਤੀਸਰ ਪੰਥ ਚਲਾਇਅਨ ਵਡ ਸੂਰ ਗਹੇਲਾ ।।
    In this way, the third Panth was created of mighty intoxicated warriors

    ਵਾਹ ਵਾਹ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਸਿੰਘ ਆਪੇ ਗੁਰੁ ਚੇਲਾ ।।
    Wow! Bravo to Gobind Singh, the Guru and himself the disciple"

    "ਸੁਤ ਸਿੱਖਨ ਕੀ ਬੀਰਤਾ ਪਿਖਿ ਗੁਰੁ ਹ੍ਵੈ ਪ੍ਰਸੰਨ ।
    ਕਹ੍ਯੋ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਮੁਖ ਤੈ ਤਬੈ ਭਏ ਜਨਮ ਇਨਿ ਧੰਨ੍ਯ ।65।
    Seeing the bravery of his Sikh sons, the Guru became pleased,
    at that point from their Exalted Mouth they said, "Their life has been blessed

    ਜੋ ਨਰ ਰਣ ਮੈਂ ਸੰਮੁਖ ਹ੍ਵੈ ਲਰਿ ਅਰਿ ਸੋਂ ਤਨ ਦੇਤ ।
    ਭਗਤ ਜੁਗੀਸ ਜੁ ਪਦ ਲਹੈਂ ਸੋ ਪਦ ਵਹਿ ਜਨ ਲੇਤ ।66।
    Those who fight face on in the battle, fighting and dying, giving their body.
    The states [of liberation] that bhakts [devotees] & master yogis receive, these warriors seize that position""

    https://www.instagram.com/p/Cam9_igpoKj/

    https://www.instagram.com/p/ChNWtwqJsaB/

    https://www.instagram.com/p/CXuhEDNlmG7/

    https://www.instagram.com/p/ChdD6tPva47/

    https://www.instagram.com/p/CeSnYOfLcCC/

    Replies: @HeavilyMarbledSteak

    Is it possible, like a typical modern, you’re influenced by the literalist movement that inevitably ends in nihilism? – I don’t think Mr Singh you are giving us an accurate portrayal of Sikhism so much as you are giving us modernity 🙂 This is something that is a problem for all religions these days, so don’t be personally offended – AP is giving us modernity instead of Christianity no less than you.

    David Bentley Hart said if he couldn’t be an Orthodox Christian, he’d be “perfectly happy being a Sikh” – somehow, I don’t see him as taking up your religion of the double edged sword, though, and talking about worshipping weapons 🙂

    Somehow, I don’t think the God described below literally wants us to worship weapons.

    To speak of “God” properly—in a way, that is, consonant with the teachings of orthodox Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Sikhism, Vedantic and Bhaktic Hinduism, Bahá’í, much of antique paganism, and so forth—is to speak of the one infinite ground of all that is: eternal, omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, uncreated, uncaused, perfectly transcendent of all things and for that very reason absolutely immanent to all things.

    God so understood is neither some particular thing posed over against the created universe, in addition to it, nor is he the universe itself. He is not a being, at least not in the way that a tree, a clock, or a god is; he is not one more object in the inventory of things that are. He is the infinite wellspring of all that is, in whom all things live and move and have their being. He may be said to be “beyond being,” if by “being” one means the totality of finite things, but also may be called “being itself,” in that he is the inexhaustible source of all reality, the absolute upon which the contingent is always utterly dependent, the unity underlying all things.

    To speak of “gods,” by contrast, is to speak only of a higher or more powerful or more splendid dimension of immanent reality. Any gods who might be out there do not transcend nature but belong to it. Their theogonies can be recounted—how they arose out of the primal night, or were born of other, more titanic progenitors, and so on—and in many cases their eventual demises foreseen. Each of them is a distinct being rather than “being itself,” and it is they who are dependent upon the universe for their existence rather than the reverse. Of such gods there may be an endless diversity, while of God there can be only one. Or, better, God is not merely one—not merely singular or unique—but is oneness as such, the sole act of being by which any finite thing exists and by which all things exist together.

    Obviously, then, it is the transcendent God in whom it is ultimately meaningful not to believe. The possibility of gods or spirits or angels or demons, and so on, is all very interesting to contemplate, but remains a question not of metaphysics but only of the taxonomy of nature (terrestrial, celestial, and chthonic). To be an atheist in the best modern sense, and so to be a truly intellectually and emotionally fulfilled naturalist in philosophy, one must genuinely succeed in not believing in God, with all the logical consequences this entails.

    • Replies: @Sher Singh
    @HeavilyMarbledSteak

    Sikhs are initiated with a double edged sword & Weapons Worship is core to the faith.
    Quit blaspheming you filthy kike


    ਪ੍ਰਿਥੀ ਸੁਰਗ ਕੋ ਰਾਜ ਘਨੇਰਾ।
    ਓਜ ਸੁਰਾਸਰ ਕੇਰਿ ਬਡੇਰਾ।
    ਸਭਿ ਸ਼ਸਤ੍ਰਨਿ ਕੇ ਹੈ ਅਨੁਸਾਰੇ।
    ਜਗ ਇਨ ਧਰੈ ਸੁ ਹੁਇ ਬਲ ਭਾਰੇ
    The great kingdom of the heavens and the earth is obtained.
    Arms are more powerful than gods and demons.
    All people obey the law of weapons.
    Whoever wears them becomes a great.
     

    ਹੂਆ ਬਚਨ ਤਬਿ ਸੰਗਤੀ, ਆਯੁਧ ਬਾਂਧਹੁ ਨਿੱਤ ।
    Then a command was given, "Congregation, always strap yourself with weapons."

    ਸੁਣਿਆਂ ਮੰਨਿਆਂ ਬਾਕ ਤਿਨ, ਸ਼ਸਤ੍ਰ ਸੰਗਤੀ ਮਿੱਤ ।
    That congregation who heard and obeyed this saying, befriended weapons.

    ਲੜਤੀ ਸੰਗਤਿ ਗੁਰੂ ਕੀ, ਸੁਨਿ ਪਿਖਿ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਦ੍ਯਾਲ ।
    The combative congregation of the Guru, heard and saw the grace of the True Guru.

    ਵਾਰ ਭਗੌਤੀ ਪਠਨ ਕਰਿ, ਸੰਗਤਿ ਤੁਰਕਨਿ ਸਾਲ ।
    They read the Ballad of Bhagauti [Chandi di Vaar], and wounded the Turks.

    The Guru soon after instructed the congregation on firearms training:

    ਬਾਮ ਮੁਸ਼ਟ ਧਨੁ ਪਰ ਟਿਕੀ, ਤਥਾ ਤੁਪਕ ਕੇ ਸਾਥ ।
    "Like how one's left hand holds a bow, in the same way hold a gun.

    ਬਲ ਪਰ ਨਿਹਚਲ ਹੋਤਿ ਹੈ, ਨਹਿਂ ਡੋਲਹਿ ਪੁਨ ਹਾਥ ।47।
    Using your strength steady the gun, don't allow it to shake with your other hand.

    ਦੀਦਮਾਨ ਮਨ ਦ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਟ ਲੱਛ, ਮੱਖੀ ਜੁਤ ਸਭਿ ਸੋਇ ।
    Align the rear sight, your mind, your vision, your target, your front sight, all together.

    ਪੰਚਹੁਂ ਜੇ ਇਕ ਸੂਤ ਹ੍ਵੈਂ, ਹਤ੍ਯੋ ਬਚੈ ਨਹਿਂ ਕੋਇ ।48।
    If all these five become in one line, you'll kill, no one will be saved."
     

    ਸਿਖ ਮਤ ਵਿਚ ਅਕਾਲ ਪੁਰਖ ਜੀ ਦਾ ਪ੍ਰਤੱਖ ਦਰਸ਼ਨ ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਜੀ ਦਾ ਹੈ ਅਥਵਾ ਗੁਰਾਂ ਸੰਤਾਂ ਦਾ ਹੈ । ਤਥਾ ਹੀ ਭਗਵਤੀ ਦਾ ਪ੍ਰਤੱਖ ਧੇਇ ਸਰੂਪ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਆਦਿਕ ਸ਼ਸਤ੍ਰਾਂ ਅਸਤ੍ਰਾਂ ਦਾ ਦਰਸ਼ਨ ਹੈ ।
    In Sikhi, to view the [sargun, physical] form of Akal Purkh look towards Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji as well as Saints. Like this to the [sargun] form of Bhagvati [Devi/Chandi] for one to view weapons [shastar and astar].
     

    O Partha, happy are the kshatriyas to whom such fighting opportunities come unsought, opening for them the doors of the heavenly planets. ( Shree Bhagwat Geeta 2.32 )
     
    ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫਤਹਿ

    Replies: @Sher Singh

    , @Coconuts
    @HeavilyMarbledSteak


    I don’t think Mr Singh you are giving us an accurate portrayal of Sikhism so much as you are giving us modernity...
     
    It must depend what modernity involves. I remember Carl Schmitt's little diagram about political modernity:

    Liberty, progress and reason vs. Feudalism, reaction and violence.

    Economics, technology and industry vs. The State, war and politics.

    Parliamentarianism vs. Dictatorship.

    Modernity is what is on the left.

    I think Schmitt captured something important with this, some food for thought.

    Replies: @HeavilyMarbledSteak

    , @Mr. Hack
    @HeavilyMarbledSteak

    I have no reason to disbelieve Sher Singh about the precepts of his Sikh faith. I too at one time thought that it was a peaceful faith similar to the Persian Baha'i faith. It's reliance on the "double edged sword" no doubt has a lot to do with its tumultuous history. Unlike the Baha'i faith, I don't think that its appeal will ever transcend much the borders of its original Indian followers. I could be wrong?

    Replies: @HeavilyMarbledSteak

  659. Sher Singh says:
    @HeavilyMarbledSteak
    @Sher Singh

    Is it possible, like a typical modern, you're influenced by the literalist movement that inevitably ends in nihilism? - I don't think Mr Singh you are giving us an accurate portrayal of Sikhism so much as you are giving us modernity :) This is something that is a problem for all religions these days, so don't be personally offended - AP is giving us modernity instead of Christianity no less than you.

    David Bentley Hart said if he couldn't be an Orthodox Christian, he'd be "perfectly happy being a Sikh" - somehow, I don't see him as taking up your religion of the double edged sword, though, and talking about worshipping weapons :)

    Somehow, I don't think the God described below literally wants us to worship weapons.


    To speak of “God” properly—in a way, that is, consonant with the teachings of orthodox Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Sikhism, Vedantic and Bhaktic Hinduism, Bahá’í, much of antique paganism, and so forth—is to speak of the one infinite ground of all that is: eternal, omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, uncreated, uncaused, perfectly transcendent of all things and for that very reason absolutely immanent to all things.

    God so understood is neither some particular thing posed over against the created universe, in addition to it, nor is he the universe itself. He is not a being, at least not in the way that a tree, a clock, or a god is; he is not one more object in the inventory of things that are. He is the infinite wellspring of all that is, in whom all things live and move and have their being. He may be said to be “beyond being,” if by “being” one means the totality of finite things, but also may be called “being itself,” in that he is the inexhaustible source of all reality, the absolute upon which the contingent is always utterly dependent, the unity underlying all things.

    To speak of “gods,” by contrast, is to speak only of a higher or more powerful or more splendid dimension of immanent reality. Any gods who might be out there do not transcend nature but belong to it. Their theogonies can be recounted—how they arose out of the primal night, or were born of other, more titanic progenitors, and so on—and in many cases their eventual demises foreseen. Each of them is a distinct being rather than “being itself,” and it is they who are dependent upon the universe for their existence rather than the reverse. Of such gods there may be an endless diversity, while of God there can be only one. Or, better, God is not merely one—not merely singular or unique—but is oneness as such, the sole act of being by which any finite thing exists and by which all things exist together.

    Obviously, then, it is the transcendent God in whom it is ultimately meaningful not to believe. The possibility of gods or spirits or angels or demons, and so on, is all very interesting to contemplate, but remains a question not of metaphysics but only of the taxonomy of nature (terrestrial, celestial, and chthonic). To be an atheist in the best modern sense, and so to be a truly intellectually and emotionally fulfilled naturalist in philosophy, one must genuinely succeed in not believing in God, with all the logical consequences this entails.
     

    Replies: @Sher Singh, @Coconuts, @Mr. Hack

    Sikhs are initiated with a double edged sword & Weapons Worship is core to the faith.
    Quit blaspheming you filthy kike

    ਪ੍ਰਿਥੀ ਸੁਰਗ ਕੋ ਰਾਜ ਘਨੇਰਾ।
    ਓਜ ਸੁਰਾਸਰ ਕੇਰਿ ਬਡੇਰਾ।
    ਸਭਿ ਸ਼ਸਤ੍ਰਨਿ ਕੇ ਹੈ ਅਨੁਸਾਰੇ।
    ਜਗ ਇਨ ਧਰੈ ਸੁ ਹੁਇ ਬਲ ਭਾਰੇ
    The great kingdom of the heavens and the earth is obtained.
    Arms are more powerful than gods and demons.
    All people obey the law of weapons.
    Whoever wears them becomes a great.

    ਹੂਆ ਬਚਨ ਤਬਿ ਸੰਗਤੀ, ਆਯੁਧ ਬਾਂਧਹੁ ਨਿੱਤ ।
    Then a command was given, “Congregation, always strap yourself with weapons.”

    ਸੁਣਿਆਂ ਮੰਨਿਆਂ ਬਾਕ ਤਿਨ, ਸ਼ਸਤ੍ਰ ਸੰਗਤੀ ਮਿੱਤ ।
    That congregation who heard and obeyed this saying, befriended weapons.

    ਲੜਤੀ ਸੰਗਤਿ ਗੁਰੂ ਕੀ, ਸੁਨਿ ਪਿਖਿ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਦ੍ਯਾਲ ।
    The combative congregation of the Guru, heard and saw the grace of the True Guru.

    ਵਾਰ ਭਗੌਤੀ ਪਠਨ ਕਰਿ, ਸੰਗਤਿ ਤੁਰਕਨਿ ਸਾਲ ।
    They read the Ballad of Bhagauti [Chandi di Vaar], and wounded the Turks.

    The Guru soon after instructed the congregation on firearms training:

    ਬਾਮ ਮੁਸ਼ਟ ਧਨੁ ਪਰ ਟਿਕੀ, ਤਥਾ ਤੁਪਕ ਕੇ ਸਾਥ ।
    “Like how one’s left hand holds a bow, in the same way hold a gun.

    ਬਲ ਪਰ ਨਿਹਚਲ ਹੋਤਿ ਹੈ, ਨਹਿਂ ਡੋਲਹਿ ਪੁਨ ਹਾਥ ।47।
    Using your strength steady the gun, don’t allow it to shake with your other hand.

    ਦੀਦਮਾਨ ਮਨ ਦ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਟ ਲੱਛ, ਮੱਖੀ ਜੁਤ ਸਭਿ ਸੋਇ ।
    Align the rear sight, your mind, your vision, your target, your front sight, all together.

    ਪੰਚਹੁਂ ਜੇ ਇਕ ਸੂਤ ਹ੍ਵੈਂ, ਹਤ੍ਯੋ ਬਚੈ ਨਹਿਂ ਕੋਇ ।48।
    If all these five become in one line, you’ll kill, no one will be saved.”

    ਸਿਖ ਮਤ ਵਿਚ ਅਕਾਲ ਪੁਰਖ ਜੀ ਦਾ ਪ੍ਰਤੱਖ ਦਰਸ਼ਨ ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਜੀ ਦਾ ਹੈ ਅਥਵਾ ਗੁਰਾਂ ਸੰਤਾਂ ਦਾ ਹੈ । ਤਥਾ ਹੀ ਭਗਵਤੀ ਦਾ ਪ੍ਰਤੱਖ ਧੇਇ ਸਰੂਪ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਆਦਿਕ ਸ਼ਸਤ੍ਰਾਂ ਅਸਤ੍ਰਾਂ ਦਾ ਦਰਸ਼ਨ ਹੈ ।
    In Sikhi, to view the [sargun, physical] form of Akal Purkh look towards Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji as well as Saints. Like this to the [sargun] form of Bhagvati [Devi/Chandi] for one to view weapons [shastar and astar].

    O Partha, happy are the kshatriyas to whom such fighting opportunities come unsought, opening for them the doors of the heavenly planets. ( Shree Bhagwat Geeta 2.32 )

    ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫਤਹਿ

    • Replies: @Sher Singh
    @Sher Singh


    ਜਹਾਂ ਖਾਲਸਾ ਬੈਠਾ ਪਾਵੈ । ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਜੀ ਕੀ ਫਤੇ ਬੁਲਾਵੇ ।
    Where the Khalsa is seated, call out 'Vahiguruji Ka Khalsa, Vahiguruji Ki Fateh'

    ਪ੍ਰੇਮ ਸਹਤ ਜੋ ਦਰਸਨ ਕਰ ਹੈ । ਤੇ ਪੁਨ ਭਵ ਸਾਗਰ ਨਹਿ ਪਰ ਹੈ ।
    Anyone, who looks upon the Khalsa with love, they then won't fall into ocean of existence again [they will be liberated
     

    ਯਾਂਤੇ ਸਰਬ ਖਾਲਸਾ ਸੁਨੀਅਹਿ । ਆਯੁਧ ਧਰਿਬੇ ਉਤੱਮ ਗੁਨੀਅਹਿ ।
    The Guru then said to his Sikhs, "All of the Khalsa should listen [to this directive], carrying weapons is the highest action.


    ਜਬਿ ਹਮਰੇ ਦਰਸ਼ਨ ਕੋ ਆਵਹੁ । ਬਨਿ ਸੁਚੇਤ ਤਨ ਸ਼ਸਤ੍ਰ ਸਜਾਵਹੁ ।।੭।।
    When you come to have my Darshan, adorn your body with weapons.


    ਕਮਰ ਕਸਾ ਕਰਿ ਦੇਹੁ ਦਿਖਾਈ । ਹਮਰੀ ਖੁਸ਼ੀ ਹੋਇ ਅਧਿਕਾਈ ।
    When showing yourself to me have your Kamar Kasa [waist band which holds weapons] tied, in such a way I shall be extremely happy.


    ਸ਼ਸਤ੍ਰ ਕੇਸ ਬਿਨ ਪਾਉ ਲਖਹੁ ਨਰ । ਕੇਸ ਧਰੇ ਤਬਿ ਆਧੋ ਲਖਿ ਉਰ ।।੮।।
    Those men who do not have Kesh [unshorn hair] or Shastars [weapons], do not recognize those men as full men. Those who have Kesh [unshorn hair], recognize those as half-men.


    ਕੇਸ ਸ਼ਸਤ੍ਰ ਜਬਿ ਦੋਨਹੁਂ ਧਾਰੇ । ਤਬਿ ਨਰੁ ਰੂਪ ਹੋਤਿ ਹੈ ਸਾਰੇ ।
    Those who have adorned themselves with Kesh [unshorn hair] and Shastar [weapons], those men have attained their full form."


    ਅਸ ਉਪਦੇਸ ਗੁਰੂ ਤੇ ਸੁਨਿ ਕਰਿ । ਦਰਸ਼ਨ ਪਰਸਤਿ ਆਯੁਧ ਧਰਿ ਧਰਿ ।।੯।।
    After listening to this discourse by the Guru, Sikhs would come to the Guru adorning various weapons.


    ਸਿੰਘ ਰੂਪ ਸ਼ਸਤ੍ਰਨ ਜੁਤਿ ਹੇਰੈਂ । ਹੋਤਿ ਗੁਰੂ ਕੀ ਖੁਸ਼ੀ ਬਡੇਰੈ ।
    The appearance of a Singh [is complete] with weapons, when the Guru see's this He becomes extremely happy.

    ਕਮਰ ਕਸੇ ਬਿਨ ਜੋ ਸਿਖ ਜਾਇ । ਤਿਸ ਪਰ ਰੁਖ ਨਹਿ ਕਰੈਂ ਕਦਾਇ ।।੧੦।।
    Those Sikhs who went towards the Guru without wearing a Kamarkasa [waist band which holds weapons], the Guru would never look towards them
     
    .

    ਭੁਜੰਗ ਪ੍ਰਯਾਤ ਛੰਦ ॥ ⁣
    ਪੁਨੰ ਸੰਗ ਸਾਰੇ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਯੌ ਸੁਨਾਈ । ਬਿਨਾ ਤੇਗ ਤੀਰੰ ਰਹੋ ਨਾਹਿ ਭਾਈ । ⁣
    Then amongst everyone the Master [Guru Gobind Singh] proclaimed; "Brothers, without a sword and arrows do not remain in my presence. ⁣

    ਬਿਨਾ ਸਸਤ੍ਰ ਕੇਸੰ ਨਰੰ ਭੇਡ ਜਾਨੋ । ਗਹੇ ਕਾਂਨ ਤਾਕੌ ਕਿਤੇ ਲੈ ਸਿਧਾਨੋ ।੯੮।⁣
    Without long hair [kesh] and weapons a man is a sheep, grabbed by their ear they can be dragged anywhere.⁣

    ਇਹੈ ਮੋਰ ਆਗਿਆ ਸੁਨੋ ਲੈ ਪਿਆਰੇ । ਬਿਨਾ ਤੇਗ ਕੇਸੰ ਦਿਵੋ ਨ ਦਿਦਾਰੇ ।⁣
    This is my command listen my beloved ones, without a sword or long hair [kesh] do not come to see me. ⁣

    ਇਹੈ ਮੋਰ ਬੈਨੰ ਮਨੈਗਾ ਸੁ ਜੋਈ । ਤਿਸੈ ਇਛ ਪੂਰੰ ਸਭੈ ਜਾਂਨ ਹੋਈ ।੯੯।⁣
    Whoever follows these words of mine will have all of their desires fulfilled and will become all-knowing!" ⁣

    Gurbilas Patshahi Dasvi (1797), author: Sukha Singh ⁣
    Chapter 23⁣
    ਗੁਰਬਿਲਾਸ ਪਾਤਿਸ਼ਹੀ ਦਸਵੀਂ (੧੭੯੭), ਕ੍ਰਿਤ: ਸੁੱਖਾ ਸਿੰਘ⁣
    ਅਧਿਆਇ ੨੩⁣

    Note: Here the use of ਤੇਗ ਤੀਰੰ is suggestive of not only those specific weapons but more broadly bladed weapons (shastar), and projectile weapons (astar) like arrows but also pistols and rifles
     
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KfaJCwP6kBk

    Done here, Unz feel free to ban.
    Anyone who wants my phone or email can get it through Barbarossa.

    ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫਤਿਹ
  660. Sher Singh says:
    @Sher Singh
    @HeavilyMarbledSteak

    Sikhs are initiated with a double edged sword & Weapons Worship is core to the faith.
    Quit blaspheming you filthy kike


    ਪ੍ਰਿਥੀ ਸੁਰਗ ਕੋ ਰਾਜ ਘਨੇਰਾ।
    ਓਜ ਸੁਰਾਸਰ ਕੇਰਿ ਬਡੇਰਾ।
    ਸਭਿ ਸ਼ਸਤ੍ਰਨਿ ਕੇ ਹੈ ਅਨੁਸਾਰੇ।
    ਜਗ ਇਨ ਧਰੈ ਸੁ ਹੁਇ ਬਲ ਭਾਰੇ
    The great kingdom of the heavens and the earth is obtained.
    Arms are more powerful than gods and demons.
    All people obey the law of weapons.
    Whoever wears them becomes a great.
     

    ਹੂਆ ਬਚਨ ਤਬਿ ਸੰਗਤੀ, ਆਯੁਧ ਬਾਂਧਹੁ ਨਿੱਤ ।
    Then a command was given, "Congregation, always strap yourself with weapons."

    ਸੁਣਿਆਂ ਮੰਨਿਆਂ ਬਾਕ ਤਿਨ, ਸ਼ਸਤ੍ਰ ਸੰਗਤੀ ਮਿੱਤ ।
    That congregation who heard and obeyed this saying, befriended weapons.

    ਲੜਤੀ ਸੰਗਤਿ ਗੁਰੂ ਕੀ, ਸੁਨਿ ਪਿਖਿ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਦ੍ਯਾਲ ।
    The combative congregation of the Guru, heard and saw the grace of the True Guru.

    ਵਾਰ ਭਗੌਤੀ ਪਠਨ ਕਰਿ, ਸੰਗਤਿ ਤੁਰਕਨਿ ਸਾਲ ।
    They read the Ballad of Bhagauti [Chandi di Vaar], and wounded the Turks.

    The Guru soon after instructed the congregation on firearms training:

    ਬਾਮ ਮੁਸ਼ਟ ਧਨੁ ਪਰ ਟਿਕੀ, ਤਥਾ ਤੁਪਕ ਕੇ ਸਾਥ ।
    "Like how one's left hand holds a bow, in the same way hold a gun.

    ਬਲ ਪਰ ਨਿਹਚਲ ਹੋਤਿ ਹੈ, ਨਹਿਂ ਡੋਲਹਿ ਪੁਨ ਹਾਥ ।47।
    Using your strength steady the gun, don't allow it to shake with your other hand.

    ਦੀਦਮਾਨ ਮਨ ਦ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਟ ਲੱਛ, ਮੱਖੀ ਜੁਤ ਸਭਿ ਸੋਇ ।
    Align the rear sight, your mind, your vision, your target, your front sight, all together.

    ਪੰਚਹੁਂ ਜੇ ਇਕ ਸੂਤ ਹ੍ਵੈਂ, ਹਤ੍ਯੋ ਬਚੈ ਨਹਿਂ ਕੋਇ ।48।
    If all these five become in one line, you'll kill, no one will be saved."
     

    ਸਿਖ ਮਤ ਵਿਚ ਅਕਾਲ ਪੁਰਖ ਜੀ ਦਾ ਪ੍ਰਤੱਖ ਦਰਸ਼ਨ ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਜੀ ਦਾ ਹੈ ਅਥਵਾ ਗੁਰਾਂ ਸੰਤਾਂ ਦਾ ਹੈ । ਤਥਾ ਹੀ ਭਗਵਤੀ ਦਾ ਪ੍ਰਤੱਖ ਧੇਇ ਸਰੂਪ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਆਦਿਕ ਸ਼ਸਤ੍ਰਾਂ ਅਸਤ੍ਰਾਂ ਦਾ ਦਰਸ਼ਨ ਹੈ ।
    In Sikhi, to view the [sargun, physical] form of Akal Purkh look towards Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji as well as Saints. Like this to the [sargun] form of Bhagvati [Devi/Chandi] for one to view weapons [shastar and astar].
     

    O Partha, happy are the kshatriyas to whom such fighting opportunities come unsought, opening for them the doors of the heavenly planets. ( Shree Bhagwat Geeta 2.32 )
     
    ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫਤਹਿ

    Replies: @Sher Singh

    ਜਹਾਂ ਖਾਲਸਾ ਬੈਠਾ ਪਾਵੈ । ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਜੀ ਕੀ ਫਤੇ ਬੁਲਾਵੇ ।
    Where the Khalsa is seated, call out ‘Vahiguruji Ka Khalsa, Vahiguruji Ki Fateh’

    ਪ੍ਰੇਮ ਸਹਤ ਜੋ ਦਰਸਨ ਕਰ ਹੈ । ਤੇ ਪੁਨ ਭਵ ਸਾਗਰ ਨਹਿ ਪਰ ਹੈ ।
    Anyone, who looks upon the Khalsa with love, they then won’t fall into ocean of existence again [they will be liberated

    ਯਾਂਤੇ ਸਰਬ ਖਾਲਸਾ ਸੁਨੀਅਹਿ । ਆਯੁਧ ਧਰਿਬੇ ਉਤੱਮ ਗੁਨੀਅਹਿ ।
    The Guru then said to his Sikhs, “All of the Khalsa should listen [to this directive], carrying weapons is the highest action.

    ਜਬਿ ਹਮਰੇ ਦਰਸ਼ਨ ਕੋ ਆਵਹੁ । ਬਨਿ ਸੁਚੇਤ ਤਨ ਸ਼ਸਤ੍ਰ ਸਜਾਵਹੁ ।।੭।।
    When you come to have my Darshan, adorn your body with weapons.

    ਕਮਰ ਕਸਾ ਕਰਿ ਦੇਹੁ ਦਿਖਾਈ । ਹਮਰੀ ਖੁਸ਼ੀ ਹੋਇ ਅਧਿਕਾਈ ।
    When showing yourself to me have your Kamar Kasa [waist band which holds weapons] tied, in such a way I shall be extremely happy.

    ਸ਼ਸਤ੍ਰ ਕੇਸ ਬਿਨ ਪਾਉ ਲਖਹੁ ਨਰ । ਕੇਸ ਧਰੇ ਤਬਿ ਆਧੋ ਲਖਿ ਉਰ ।।੮।।
    Those men who do not have Kesh [unshorn hair] or Shastars [weapons], do not recognize those men as full men. Those who have Kesh [unshorn hair], recognize those as half-men.

    ਕੇਸ ਸ਼ਸਤ੍ਰ ਜਬਿ ਦੋਨਹੁਂ ਧਾਰੇ । ਤਬਿ ਨਰੁ ਰੂਪ ਹੋਤਿ ਹੈ ਸਾਰੇ ।
    Those who have adorned themselves with Kesh [unshorn hair] and Shastar [weapons], those men have attained their full form.”

    ਅਸ ਉਪਦੇਸ ਗੁਰੂ ਤੇ ਸੁਨਿ ਕਰਿ । ਦਰਸ਼ਨ ਪਰਸਤਿ ਆਯੁਧ ਧਰਿ ਧਰਿ ।।੯।।
    After listening to this discourse by the Guru, Sikhs would come to the Guru adorning various weapons.

    ਸਿੰਘ ਰੂਪ ਸ਼ਸਤ੍ਰਨ ਜੁਤਿ ਹੇਰੈਂ । ਹੋਤਿ ਗੁਰੂ ਕੀ ਖੁਸ਼ੀ ਬਡੇਰੈ ।
    The appearance of a Singh [is complete] with weapons, when the Guru see’s this He becomes extremely happy.

    ਕਮਰ ਕਸੇ ਬਿਨ ਜੋ ਸਿਖ ਜਾਇ । ਤਿਸ ਪਰ ਰੁਖ ਨਹਿ ਕਰੈਂ ਕਦਾਇ ।।੧੦।।
    Those Sikhs who went towards the Guru without wearing a Kamarkasa [waist band which holds weapons], the Guru would never look towards them

    .

    ਭੁਜੰਗ ਪ੍ਰਯਾਤ ਛੰਦ ॥ ⁣
    ਪੁਨੰ ਸੰਗ ਸਾਰੇ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਯੌ ਸੁਨਾਈ । ਬਿਨਾ ਤੇਗ ਤੀਰੰ ਰਹੋ ਨਾਹਿ ਭਾਈ । ⁣
    Then amongst everyone the Master [Guru Gobind Singh] proclaimed; “Brothers, without a sword and arrows do not remain in my presence. ⁣

    ਬਿਨਾ ਸਸਤ੍ਰ ਕੇਸੰ ਨਰੰ ਭੇਡ ਜਾਨੋ । ਗਹੇ ਕਾਂਨ ਤਾਕੌ ਕਿਤੇ ਲੈ ਸਿਧਾਨੋ ।੯੮।⁣
    Without long hair [kesh] and weapons a man is a sheep, grabbed by their ear they can be dragged anywhere.⁣

    ਇਹੈ ਮੋਰ ਆਗਿਆ ਸੁਨੋ ਲੈ ਪਿਆਰੇ । ਬਿਨਾ ਤੇਗ ਕੇਸੰ ਦਿਵੋ ਨ ਦਿਦਾਰੇ ।⁣
    This is my command listen my beloved ones, without a sword or long hair [kesh] do not come to see me. ⁣

    ਇਹੈ ਮੋਰ ਬੈਨੰ ਮਨੈਗਾ ਸੁ ਜੋਈ । ਤਿਸੈ ਇਛ ਪੂਰੰ ਸਭੈ ਜਾਂਨ ਹੋਈ ।੯੯।⁣
    Whoever follows these words of mine will have all of their desires fulfilled and will become all-knowing!” ⁣

    Gurbilas Patshahi Dasvi (1797), author: Sukha Singh ⁣
    Chapter 23⁣
    ਗੁਰਬਿਲਾਸ ਪਾਤਿਸ਼ਹੀ ਦਸਵੀਂ (੧੭੯੭), ਕ੍ਰਿਤ: ਸੁੱਖਾ ਸਿੰਘ⁣
    ਅਧਿਆਇ ੨੩⁣

    Note: Here the use of ਤੇਗ ਤੀਰੰ is suggestive of not only those specific weapons but more broadly bladed weapons (shastar), and projectile weapons (astar) like arrows but also pistols and rifles

    Done here, Unz feel free to ban.
    Anyone who wants my phone or email can get it through Barbarossa.

    ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫਤਿਹ

  661. @Yahya
    @songbird

    I was checking out the new figures for GDP per capita (nominal) in 2022 and noticed something very strange.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita

    Iran = $23,034
    Latvia = $21,482
    Greece = $20,876
    Slovakia = $20,565
    Poland = $19,023
    Hungary = $18,983
    Romania = $15,619
    Russia = $14,665
    Turkey = $9,961

    Apparently Iran in 2022 outproduced most Eastern European countries and Turkey; if the statistics are to be believed. Surprising given that it is supposedly underneath heavy sanctions and experiencing significant political turmoil. One could attribute the figure to increased oil & gas revenue; but oil prices increased no more than 2x over the past year, whereas Iran’s GDP per capita has quintupled from 2021 to 2022, when it was just $4,091. No other major fossil fuel exporter has seen a comparable increase in per capita figures.

    I strongly doubt Iran is more prosperous than Poland or Hungary, or even Russia or Turkey. Something is a bit off with the nominal figures. The PPP figures have their problems too; but I don’t think they would produce such an odd outcome. In the PPP figures; Poland and Hungary would be placed at the $42,000 mark while Iran would go down to $18,000; which makes more sense imo.

    Replies: @Emil Nikola Richard, @Blinky Bill, @songbird

    The IMF converts Iran’s nominal GDP using the official exchange rate of the Rial, not the black market / real exchange rate. They changed their methodology, hence the dramatic increase. I appreciate the Swiss story, very enlightening on many levels.

    • Thanks: Yahya
  662. @Mikel
    @AP


    He did not want to interfere with humans’ will, so He provided the means to maximum access but without forcing the matter.
     
    Too convoluted to believe. Being God, He could have easily chosen any method to repeat His message: a worldwide appearance in the sky, a collective dream, a synchronous apparition to every human being, the possibilities are endless. And that would have guaranteed that indeed sinners would sin out of free will, rather than ignorance or following wrong messages from other religions. By playing hide and seek, to borrow Woody Allen's words, the end result is much more sin in the world He created. Let's also remember that when He delivered His earlier message to Moses He chose to select just one tribe of humans as the destinataries at a time when they weren't particularly interconnected to multiple civilizations.

    Replies: @AP, @Coconuts

    Being God, He could have easily chosen any method to repeat His message: a worldwide appearance in the sky, a collective dream, a synchronous apparition to every human being, the possibilities are endless. And that would have guaranteed that indeed sinners would sin out of free will, rather than ignorance or following wrong messages from other religions.

    I think if you try to explain the detail of these endless possibilities (when they are like things appearing in the sky or physical apparitions) you find none of them are really convincing evidence for God.

    Dawkins himself admitted this in a later interview when the question of alien activity and the activity of powerful spiritual beings (but not God) was raised.

    Sceptical escalation is always possible, from a sceptical perspective doubting the existence of an external world or the existence of human persons and minds (including your own) is plausible, never mind doubting something like God.

    Imo it seems to point to the conclusion that the only evidence for God, if you are working from an empiricist and nominalist starting point, is direct divine revelation to each individual in a way that eliminated all possibility of doubt or question. Maybe implanting knowledge directly into people’s minds. Knowledge of this sort, say of God’s infinite perfection and infinite being and his place as the fulfilment of human life would tend to preclude sin; there is no sin in heaven.

    OTOH if you are not an empiricist or a nominalist there are more arguments to be found for God in everyday human experience, outside miraculous events.

    • Agree: AP, Barbarossa
    • Replies: @Mikel
    @Coconuts


    Sceptical escalation is always possible
     
    Yes, even if they heard God talking to them, there would probably still be some sinners. But let's be careful here. You are comparing the doubt about what your senses are telling you with the doubt about a story that is logically inconsistent. That's akin to comparing the belief in your eyes when they tell you that it's snowing outside with the belief in the existence of the Yeti.

    AP was offering explanations of why God purportedly acted the way He did and I just proposed a much more logical course of action if that was really God's objective. If He wanted people all over the world to listen to His message and stop sinning, sending an emissary to a place that most humans had not heard about with an ambiguous message (we were just discussing the other day what Jesus' words meant) and having him brutally killed is a tremendously inefficient way to accomplish such a desire. Not surprisingly, a big majority of people on earth never heeded His advice and continue to believe in other deities or not believe in any at all. It's as if getting people to believe in an extraordinary story that doesn't make a lot of sense was more important for God than getting them to lead virtuous lives.

    Replies: @Coconuts, @LatW

  663. @HeavilyMarbledSteak
    @Sher Singh

    Is it possible, like a typical modern, you're influenced by the literalist movement that inevitably ends in nihilism? - I don't think Mr Singh you are giving us an accurate portrayal of Sikhism so much as you are giving us modernity :) This is something that is a problem for all religions these days, so don't be personally offended - AP is giving us modernity instead of Christianity no less than you.

    David Bentley Hart said if he couldn't be an Orthodox Christian, he'd be "perfectly happy being a Sikh" - somehow, I don't see him as taking up your religion of the double edged sword, though, and talking about worshipping weapons :)

    Somehow, I don't think the God described below literally wants us to worship weapons.


    To speak of “God” properly—in a way, that is, consonant with the teachings of orthodox Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Sikhism, Vedantic and Bhaktic Hinduism, Bahá’í, much of antique paganism, and so forth—is to speak of the one infinite ground of all that is: eternal, omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, uncreated, uncaused, perfectly transcendent of all things and for that very reason absolutely immanent to all things.

    God so understood is neither some particular thing posed over against the created universe, in addition to it, nor is he the universe itself. He is not a being, at least not in the way that a tree, a clock, or a god is; he is not one more object in the inventory of things that are. He is the infinite wellspring of all that is, in whom all things live and move and have their being. He may be said to be “beyond being,” if by “being” one means the totality of finite things, but also may be called “being itself,” in that he is the inexhaustible source of all reality, the absolute upon which the contingent is always utterly dependent, the unity underlying all things.

    To speak of “gods,” by contrast, is to speak only of a higher or more powerful or more splendid dimension of immanent reality. Any gods who might be out there do not transcend nature but belong to it. Their theogonies can be recounted—how they arose out of the primal night, or were born of other, more titanic progenitors, and so on—and in many cases their eventual demises foreseen. Each of them is a distinct being rather than “being itself,” and it is they who are dependent upon the universe for their existence rather than the reverse. Of such gods there may be an endless diversity, while of God there can be only one. Or, better, God is not merely one—not merely singular or unique—but is oneness as such, the sole act of being by which any finite thing exists and by which all things exist together.

    Obviously, then, it is the transcendent God in whom it is ultimately meaningful not to believe. The possibility of gods or spirits or angels or demons, and so on, is all very interesting to contemplate, but remains a question not of metaphysics but only of the taxonomy of nature (terrestrial, celestial, and chthonic). To be an atheist in the best modern sense, and so to be a truly intellectually and emotionally fulfilled naturalist in philosophy, one must genuinely succeed in not believing in God, with all the logical consequences this entails.
     

    Replies: @Sher Singh, @Coconuts, @Mr. Hack

    I don’t think Mr Singh you are giving us an accurate portrayal of Sikhism so much as you are giving us modernity…

    It must depend what modernity involves. I remember Carl Schmitt’s little diagram about political modernity:

    Liberty, progress and reason vs. Feudalism, reaction and violence.

    Economics, technology and industry vs. The State, war and politics.

    Parliamentarianism vs. Dictatorship.

    Modernity is what is on the left.

    I think Schmitt captured something important with this, some food for thought.

    • Replies: @HeavilyMarbledSteak
    @Coconuts

    I think that's a rather tendentious presentation.

    But anyways I'm not a reactionary or a traditionalist. I'm in favor of rescuing everything that was good about tradition and incorporating it into a new synthesis, but obviously there were many horrific things about tradition - we tend to forget modernity emerged out of tradition, and nihilism emerged out of certain tendencies in traditional Christian thought, so obviously a simple return would be pointless, and obviously people who actually lived in tradition didn't find it so unreservedly fabulous.

    In the end I'm not am either/or type guy, but a synthesist and a syncretist.

    As for Sher Singh, his extreme literalist/factual interpretation of Sikhism - which is actually a beautiful religion of ultimate peace like all the great faiths - can only be a product of the literalist spirit of modernity.

    Replies: @Coconuts

  664. @LatW
    @Beckow


    I have noticed that even AP is switching to a Galician homeland strategy, quite a climb-down
     
    Let's be honest - AP always sort of had that attitude. Which is rather different from the position of most Ukrainian patriots and even regular Ukrainians. I do agree with him, however, that the future of Western Ukraine might be quite good - those people are very close to us mentally, I don't see any issues there. But it is not enough for me.

    These coming couple of months will be very tough, so some people might have it hard to hold their spirits up. This is something that most people are not fit to endure (such a savage war, where one has to watch innocent people being savagely murdered with seemingly no end in sight - although the bombings might soon subside).


    The Ukie casualties and the desperate rush of weapons are not a sign of strength
     
    The casualties are high, but not fully known. I do not trust either Western nor Russian sources. I only trust select Ukrainian officers who are on the ground and even they have the picture only of their direct area, not the whole front line which is huge. But, yes, the casualties will be high because Russia is large and savage in its fighting manner and this is a War of Independence. I have heard at least on two occasions from rather reliable UA military sources that most of the Ukrainian male population might need to go through fighting (which is heartbreaking, of course).

    As to the "rush of weapons" - while late, it is not desperate. The US tried to boil the frog slowly. I'm not in favor of this approach, but I understand the rationale behind it - to do this incrementally, has actually made it less escalatory. And the parade of tanks is getting to be quite impressive, more and more countries want to participate (it must feel good to participate on the side of those who still have the initiative, e.g., Ukraine). So we will see what Zaluzhny will conjure up this time (I mean... wow!).


    But the overwhelming odds are that eventually Russia will win. What the f..k are you going to do then?

     

    Arm ourselves.

    Replies: @Beckow

    …Arm ourselves.

    That’s like saying that when one gets piss-drunk the solution is to drink more. Good luck with that.

    You and I don’t disagree much, but I assign equal fault to the irrational Kiev posturing (rejecting Minsk) and the Anglo madmen who decided that Nato in Ukraine was a great idea. Your suggestion that Russia could have waited and blow up any missiles on its border is, frankly, idiotic. Nobody acts that way. Would US sit back and wait as Russia takes control of Quebec? Of course not, everyone knows it – you simply don’t give Russia the same rights. The war is to determine whether Russia can assert these rights. So far it looks like they are able to: there will be no Nato in Ukraine, no bases, no missiles – how can that be a victory for Washington?

    most of the Ukrainian male population might need to go through fighting – which is heartbreaking

    What are they going to die for? They had independence and they blew it. They will not improve their living standards – wars are destructive, people die and leave. They will not defeat Russia and march around Red Square or even Donetsk. They are dying to feed the Western neo-con egos – a total waste that would be comical if it wasn’t so sad.

    AP’s Galician retreat is a step back – shrunken homeland. If the morons in Kiev implemented Minsk, the homeland would be much bigger, with no sacrifices and almost certain ability to eventually manipulate Donbas into compliance (money talks :)… If his dream comes true it won’t be an Intermarium, it will be a larger Moldova – very poor, with most people leaving and Poland in the role of Romania. Not much to look forward to.

    But as we say ‘those you can’t advise, you can’t help’, so you guys enjoy the mayhem, hope for the best….and of course ‘arm yourself’…that will be a lot of help…And it could have been so much easier if people just used some rationality and stop treating anything Russian as the devil-incarnate.

    • Replies: @AP
    @Beckow


    They [Ukrainians] had independence and they blew it
     
    They had independence and this is what they are fighting for. Russia’s ultimatum was for a foreign country to determine what political parties were allowed or not allowed to exist in Ukraine (so-called “de-Nazification”), for a foreign country to determine Ukraine’s internal language policies, for a foreign country to decide he size of Ukraine’s military, for a foreign country to have its own autonomous mini-state within Ukraine that would have veto power over that country’s own policies, and for a foreign country to determine what foreign organizations or alliances Ukraine could or could not join.

    In other words, Russia demanded that Ukraine surrender its independence.

    We know that you would do that. Ukrainians refused.


    AP’s Galician retreat is a step back – shrunken homeland
     
    You are repeating your lie. I described a Ukraine reduced to Galicia and Volhynia as “extremely unlikely” and added:

    “Most likely though would be stalemate at the current line of contact (give or take some places like Bakhmut or even Kramatorsk), with a good chance of Ukraine taking back the corridor to Crimea but not fortified and urban Donbas.”

    I did note that such a Ukraine would converge with its western neighbors because it’s the most functional part of Ukraine and would benefit from many of the most educated young people escaping Russian- occupied Ukraine. Already Kharkiv firms have reopened in Lviv, which has seen its population swell by 150,000, mostly young people. The Russian-speakers from the East are noticing that their kids in the Ukrainian schools are Ukrainian-speaking.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @Beckow

    , @LatW
    @Beckow


    That’s like saying that when one gets piss-drunk the solution is to drink more. Good luck with that.
     
    In purely technical terms, this is not so, because Eastern Europeans were never "drunk" with weapons, they were actually under militarized. If Russia won, the Ukrainians would have to leave the task of fighting Russia to their children (which is always unfortunate), and other neighbors would have to take their defense much more seriously than they previously have. The attractive gentleman that the Czechs just elected as their president would probably agree (or rather, I would be a priori agreeing with him, since he has said something along those same lines).

    As to going forward, we don't know whether after the conflict we will engage with Russia somehow at all or if it will be a new Cold War with very minimal engagement.

    but I assign equal fault to the irrational Kiev posturing (rejecting Minsk) and the Anglo madmen who decided that Nato in Ukraine was a great idea.
     
    The population didn't want Minsk, even if the leadership had wanted it, it would be difficult to steer such a large population into any desired direction. Remember that historically Ukraine has already given up a lot of its territory and people (both through things such as Holodomor and export of people to Russia through out the ages), so it's a lot to ask to give up more. Look how Hungarians and even other nations are clinging on to their populations (understandably so). You cannot reasonably expect that a nation which is larger than most European nations will be easily pushed around.

    Your suggestion that Russia could have waited and blow up any missiles on its border is, frankly, idiotic.
     
    This is not just my suggestion, but from some in the Russian General Staff, even if they don't accept Ukraine's ideology and leadership. Russia has always said they have all kinds of advanced weapons, this should be easy for them, especially given that they have Kaliningrad and Crimea. Kaliningrad in particular is a territory very far West which they have historically never held. Essentially they received it with the help of Anglos and other allies. They are able to hit several core European capitals from there.

    Nobody acts that way. Would US sit back and wait as Russia takes control of Quebec?
     
    Surely, the best is of course for the neighbors to not irritate each other. That goes without saying.

    I know you don't agree, but it's not just about the US. There is also the aspect of the European aspirations. Europe and Ukraine like each other now. So it would be unnatural to try to push them apart by force. The question is - according to you, only Russia can determine how her neighbors are armed? And what policies they have? That's very ambitious given that there are many neighbors and that Russia has her own internal problems. Best would have been to placate the situation from both sides. Understanding that Ukraine will go her own way. But then try to set some parameters of co-existence.

    The war is to determine whether Russia can assert these rights.
     
    Correct. This war is about several things, and one can say that the above is one of the aspects. It's about testing the limits of Russia in the 21st century. Russia knows how much is at stake so fighting relentlessly.

    everyone knows it – you simply don’t give Russia the same rights.
     
    Such level of "rights" that they desire must be fought for or earned (you have a limited outlook of what they want, they want more than you realize). Nobody will give you something like that on a platter. One has to assert oneself in the right manner. If you want to assert with force, then expect some force in return. This would be the case anywhere in Nature, not just between countries. I think it's finally dawning on them that this will be the case here as well.

    So far it looks like they are able to: there will be no Nato in Ukraine, no bases, no missiles – how can that be a victory for Washington?
     
    Well, Washington doesn't lose either way in this case (unless Ukraine is crushed completely which they won't be). As to missiles, we don't yet know - the West might send long range missiles, so in that case this will be a fact, even if Ukraine is not in NATO formally, de facto, they are receiving something that looks awfully close to Article 5 in action. Besides, the armaments that have been delivered so far are already quite impressive. Most NATO countries are not even so full of weapons. It might even be that some border areas of Russia are also not as well armed (such as Belgorod oblast).

    Whether the conversation about NATO will continue after the war, remains to be seen. Ukraine is open to this conversation and the West is the usual way ("keeping the door open"), so we don't know yet. If there is an attempt to give Ukraine some kind of security guarantees, this may come up. Although I believe their main security guarantee is their armed forces.

    What are they going to die for? They had independence and they blew it.
     
    They haven't blown it, since they still control most of their country. They are now a subject of international politics, not an object. Besides, they have more fans in the world than ever in their history.

    As to the mobilization of all or most Ukrainian men, I hope and pray this will never come to pass. But I heard it on YouTube from at least two experienced militiamen, so it's worrisome. I really hope they are wrong.

    They will not defeat Russia and march around Red Square or even Donetsk.
     
    They are not intent on marching on Moscow. The way they envision the Russian capitulation would be Russia retreating, leaving their territory and as a result Russia would have to focus internally on the turf wars that would ensue - this is hypothetical and not a given that this will happen, of course, but one can already see some of that taking shape with the recent ugly spat between Girkin and Prigozhin. There are now apparently over 20 private military companies in Russia. Even Shoigu apparently has one.

    Don't be so sure about Donetsk, hypothetically, Donetsk could be shelled again. Mariupol may not be the only large city that gets wiped out. It's that serious (and, yes, horrific). The goal of the Ukrainian military is not to shell cities and towns, but to eliminate the supply routes in order to force the Russians to retreat (the way they did in Kherson).

    AP’s Galician retreat is a step back – shrunken homeland.
     
    He mentioned that he doesn't believe this to be the likely scenario. AP always held the position of letting parts of Donbas go - it's a highly rational position of just letting the problematic Eastern areas go, drop the unneeded ballast, so to speak. This makes sense from the point of view of making it easier for Ukraine to move on, but it's not the position that most Ukrainians hold, even many Easterners - one doesn't give up territory so easily. From the Western point of view, it's not so bad - Western Ukraine will get integrated into the EU, and Poland gets an extra million of productive white people. Lviv will become a big city finally. Not a bad outcome overall, it's only bad for Ukrainian patriots and for Ukraine as a nation state (and even this scenario will not materialize since they will keep most of their territory - I think Kharkiv and Dnipro will stand).

    If his dream comes true it won’t be an Intermarium

     

    It will still be an Intermarium, since there will be access to the Black Sea in Odessa, just a much smaller one.

    And it could have been so much easier if people just used some rationality and stop treating anything Russian as the devil-incarnate.
     
    Yes, there is a lot of acrimony and deserved hatred of Russia but it's not like Russia had it that bad with her neighbors. There was a huge Russophone population and many spoke Russian even across wider areas. There were many millions of carriers of essentially the Russian culture. All of that is going out the window now. The so called Russian world will shrink. They also had access to commerce in Europe which they have lost now. They did manage to steal some of the Ukrainian chernozem, but it's not a given that they will get to keep it.

    Replies: @Beckow

  665. @Coconuts
    @HeavilyMarbledSteak


    I don’t think Mr Singh you are giving us an accurate portrayal of Sikhism so much as you are giving us modernity...
     
    It must depend what modernity involves. I remember Carl Schmitt's little diagram about political modernity:

    Liberty, progress and reason vs. Feudalism, reaction and violence.

    Economics, technology and industry vs. The State, war and politics.

    Parliamentarianism vs. Dictatorship.

    Modernity is what is on the left.

    I think Schmitt captured something important with this, some food for thought.

    Replies: @HeavilyMarbledSteak

    I think that’s a rather tendentious presentation.

    But anyways I’m not a reactionary or a traditionalist. I’m in favor of rescuing everything that was good about tradition and incorporating it into a new synthesis, but obviously there were many horrific things about tradition – we tend to forget modernity emerged out of tradition, and nihilism emerged out of certain tendencies in traditional Christian thought, so obviously a simple return would be pointless, and obviously people who actually lived in tradition didn’t find it so unreservedly fabulous.

    In the end I’m not am either/or type guy, but a synthesist and a syncretist.

    As for Sher Singh, his extreme literalist/factual interpretation of Sikhism – which is actually a beautiful religion of ultimate peace like all the great faiths – can only be a product of the literalist spirit of modernity.

    • Replies: @Coconuts
    @HeavilyMarbledSteak


    I think that’s a rather tendentious presentation.
     
    Schmitt was a sharp thinker. He indicates the way in which the things on the left, while they sound great, aren't necessarily, and the things on the right side of the list have their place. I will try to briefly explain:

    You can see with the first opposition:


    Liberty, progress and reason vs. Feudalism, reaction and violence.
     
    Feudalism refers to inherited social status and power, but more broadly to any hereditary identity that isn't consciously chosen. Liberty to individual autonomy and conscious choice by the will. Progress ends up being a belief that indefinite augmentation of material growth and individual autonomy is an inevitability. Reason would be the belief that everything is rationally intelligible and the world can be reconstructed by universal rules to eliminate all conflict.

    Economics, technology and industry vs. The State, war and politics.
     
    The State here is the idea that humanity is divided into different political entities. Politics refers to the fact that when controversial decisions about the future of the community need to be taken, groups can divide into friend/enemy factions who struggle to impose their view. This can result in war.

    Following the older view of modernity, developments in industry, technology and commerce are ideally supposed to lead to the elimination of all these phenomena.


    Parliamentarianism vs. Dictatorship.
     
    This one relates to the idea that all controversial decisions can be settled by rational discussion leading to consensus, there being no need for a sovereign authority to impose a resolution or decision. Also that laws can be made to cover every eventuality, so no more sovereign decisions will be needed if exceptional circumstances arise.

    I think you start to see that modernity in these terms is more like an aspiration and inspiration, a certain vision, a bit like the kind of 'myth of Socialism' Georges Sorel talked about.


    In the end I’m not am either/or type guy, but a synthesist and a syncretist.
     
    It's a reasonable position to take.

    As for Sher Singh, his extreme literalist/factual interpretation of Sikhism...
     
    It could be due to the fact there are different 'paths in' to criticise modernity, depending on which aspect is being approached.

    Replies: @HeavilyMarbledSteak

  666. @Yahya
    @Leaves No Shadow


    Just found this when I looked it up. It is highly predictive of the ongoing unrest and such a large sample size is very likely resulting in am accurate picture.
     
    Yes this is the survey that Laxa linked to; which I mentioned above. I’m skeptical of the survey since it was internet-based; and may have skewed towards a certain a segment of society. The organization conducting it was founded by Iranian expats in the West who tend to be anti-clerical; and it’s sole focus is on Iran; which may imply a political agenda. By contrast, the World Values Survey which I relied on for my data was conducted on an international level by a creditable organization; and they didn’t have any political axes to grind in Iran. It was merely one country out of 200 for them.

    I think many Westerners tend to engage in wishful thinking regarding Islamic countries; because they interact with upper-middle class expats who tend to be more secular. But the bumpkins are many in all Islamic countries; and just because they are not as visible; doesn’t mean they are few.

    Replies: @Leaves No Shadow

    Evaluation of sources by past predictive power:

    A person who read the survey I provided would have been unsurprised by the still ongoing protests, even in the dead of winter, in an often bitterly cold country, but someone who read yours would have been shocked.

    Boldly going on the record:

    The Iranian governing apparatus won’t last the year, no matter how many more women they beat to death in the street. By the end of spring, even you will agree.

    WVS Database:

    The 2020 WVS Survey was conducted from Britain. Previously, it was always in Irany. They were obviously blocked and didn’t change their methodology for reasons of not wanting to rock the boat for the future. Their results are meaningless.

    Gamaan:

    The collection method, given the sample size, is fine for this survey. Statistics is magic if done well. And you don’t need to be brilliant to do it well. Think of all of the polls and how obscenely accurate they are. People complain and call the liars if they are 3% off! I would complain and call a shop liars if I went there during a “sale” and the discount was 15%, nevermind 3%.

    Personal biases:

    I think people like you have a bias towards ordinary people remaining stupid bumpkins. It puts people like you in a more powerful position as a mediating middle-man. It also imbues a positive self-image for you as cultured yet grounded. Nothing wrong with this, but I think it rather changes your perception of reality and will result in you being surprised. This is a common phenomenon throughout the world. Even George Orwell spoke of the proles the same way. It is the self-flattering fantasy of genuinely open-minded and compassionate elites, by which I exclude progressives.

    • Replies: @Yahya
    @Leaves No Shadow

    Your writing style and tendency to psychoanalyze bears resemblance to the sock-puppeteer Tritelieia Laxa.


    Evaluation of sources by past predictive power: A person who read the survey I provided would have been unsurprised by the still ongoing protests, even in the dead of winter, in an often bitterly cold country, but someone who read yours would have been shocked.
     
    N = 1.

    Not significant enough to establish predictive value of any survey.

    I’m skeptical of uprisings as being indicators of popular sentiment.

    No more than 20% of the population takes to the streets.

    Foreign media tends to engage in wishful thinking regarding goals of protestors.

    I’ve witnessed this first-hand during the Arab Spring.

    Perhaps the situation in Iran is different than Egypt. But perhaps not.


    I think people like you have a bias towards ordinary people remaining stupid bumpkins.
     
    My biases are irrelevant to the question of survey validity.

    Don’t psychoanlyze me. You don’t know my inner thoughts.

    Replies: @Leaves No Shadow

    , @A123
    @Leaves No Shadow


    The Iranian governing apparatus won’t last the year, no matter how many more women they beat to death in the street. By the end of spring, even you will agree.
     
    I was hoping this would be the case.

    However, Khamenei is backing away from ruthless suppression which was accelerating the counter revolution. Now, the regime is letting the protest burn itself out in specific, hard to control, locations. Tough tactics are happening where they believe containment will be successful. You can find more detailed reports here:

    https://understandingwar.org/project/iran-project

    The most likely regime change path for Iran is military. The IRGC is well on its way to being fully capitalist via its control of State Owned Enterprises [SOE]. Their the religious fervor is rapidly fading. At some point, the no longer revolutionary IRGC will decide that overly devout fundamentalism is an impediment to their profit statement.

    A Mubarak or El-Sisi figure would be a huge improvement in Iran's ability to return to global commerce, while still resisting European SJW contamination.

    PEACE 😇
  667. @Leaves No Shadow
    @Yahya

    Evaluation of sources by past predictive power:

    A person who read the survey I provided would have been unsurprised by the still ongoing protests, even in the dead of winter, in an often bitterly cold country, but someone who read yours would have been shocked.

    Boldly going on the record:

    The Iranian governing apparatus won't last the year, no matter how many more women they beat to death in the street. By the end of spring, even you will agree.

    WVS Database:

    The 2020 WVS Survey was conducted from Britain. Previously, it was always in Irany. They were obviously blocked and didn't change their methodology for reasons of not wanting to rock the boat for the future. Their results are meaningless.

    Gamaan:

    The collection method, given the sample size, is fine for this survey. Statistics is magic if done well. And you don't need to be brilliant to do it well. Think of all of the polls and how obscenely accurate they are. People complain and call the liars if they are 3% off! I would complain and call a shop liars if I went there during a "sale" and the discount was 15%, nevermind 3%.

    Personal biases:

    I think people like you have a bias towards ordinary people remaining stupid bumpkins. It puts people like you in a more powerful position as a mediating middle-man. It also imbues a positive self-image for you as cultured yet grounded. Nothing wrong with this, but I think it rather changes your perception of reality and will result in you being surprised. This is a common phenomenon throughout the world. Even George Orwell spoke of the proles the same way. It is the self-flattering fantasy of genuinely open-minded and compassionate elites, by which I exclude progressives.

    Replies: @Yahya, @A123

    Your writing style and tendency to psychoanalyze bears resemblance to the sock-puppeteer Tritelieia Laxa.

    Evaluation of sources by past predictive power: A person who read the survey I provided would have been unsurprised by the still ongoing protests, even in the dead of winter, in an often bitterly cold country, but someone who read yours would have been shocked.

    N = 1.

    Not significant enough to establish predictive value of any survey.

    I’m skeptical of uprisings as being indicators of popular sentiment.

    No more than 20% of the population takes to the streets.

    Foreign media tends to engage in wishful thinking regarding goals of protestors.

    I’ve witnessed this first-hand during the Arab Spring.

    Perhaps the situation in Iran is different than Egypt. But perhaps not.

    I think people like you have a bias towards ordinary people remaining stupid bumpkins.

    My biases are irrelevant to the question of survey validity.

    Don’t psychoanlyze me. You don’t know my inner thoughts.

    • Replies: @Leaves No Shadow
    @Yahya

    If you're going to get offended and be offensive because I replied to your analysis of your assumed biases of mine, with an analysis of yours, while comparing you to Orwell and calling you intelligent and open-minded, please apologise for this first:

    I think many Westerners tend to engage in wishful thinking regarding Islamic countries; because they interact with upper-middle class expats who tend to be more secular. But the bumpkins are many in all Islamic countries; and just because they are not as visible; doesn’t mean they are few.

    The third culture kid prole whisperer and dinner party explainer is a cliché. It isn't unique to the Middle East, but found all over the world. Bringing it up in response to your cliché of the optimistic yet parochial Westerner was proportionate. You know even less about me than I do about you.

    Replies: @Yahya

  668. @Yahya
    @Leaves No Shadow

    Your writing style and tendency to psychoanalyze bears resemblance to the sock-puppeteer Tritelieia Laxa.


    Evaluation of sources by past predictive power: A person who read the survey I provided would have been unsurprised by the still ongoing protests, even in the dead of winter, in an often bitterly cold country, but someone who read yours would have been shocked.
     
    N = 1.

    Not significant enough to establish predictive value of any survey.

    I’m skeptical of uprisings as being indicators of popular sentiment.

    No more than 20% of the population takes to the streets.

    Foreign media tends to engage in wishful thinking regarding goals of protestors.

    I’ve witnessed this first-hand during the Arab Spring.

    Perhaps the situation in Iran is different than Egypt. But perhaps not.


    I think people like you have a bias towards ordinary people remaining stupid bumpkins.
     
    My biases are irrelevant to the question of survey validity.

    Don’t psychoanlyze me. You don’t know my inner thoughts.

    Replies: @Leaves No Shadow

    If you’re going to get offended and be offensive because I replied to your analysis of your assumed biases of mine, with an analysis of yours, while comparing you to Orwell and calling you intelligent and open-minded, please apologise for this first:

    I think many Westerners tend to engage in wishful thinking regarding Islamic countries; because they interact with upper-middle class expats who tend to be more secular. But the bumpkins are many in all Islamic countries; and just because they are not as visible; doesn’t mean they are few.

    The third culture kid prole whisperer and dinner party explainer is a cliché. It isn’t unique to the Middle East, but found all over the world. Bringing it up in response to your cliché of the optimistic yet parochial Westerner was proportionate. You know even less about me than I do about you.

    • Replies: @Yahya
    @Leaves No Shadow


    I replied to your analysis of your assumed biases of mine
     
    Well my comment on Western wishful thinking was not specifically about you; but about broader Western attitudes. That’s why I used the third-person not the second.

    while comparing you to Orwell and calling you intelligent and open-minded, please apologise for this first
     
    Well thank you if that was your intention. But that’s not the impression I got from your comment. You phrased it thusly:

    It is the self-flattering fantasy of genuinely open-minded and compassionate elites, by which I exclude progressives.
     
    Again, using the third (them) instead of second person (you). So I didn’t take it as a personal compliment. Also when you compared me to Orwell; it was for an action which you described previously in an unflattering manner.

    Replies: @Leaves No Shadow

  669. @Leaves No Shadow
    @Yahya

    If you're going to get offended and be offensive because I replied to your analysis of your assumed biases of mine, with an analysis of yours, while comparing you to Orwell and calling you intelligent and open-minded, please apologise for this first:

    I think many Westerners tend to engage in wishful thinking regarding Islamic countries; because they interact with upper-middle class expats who tend to be more secular. But the bumpkins are many in all Islamic countries; and just because they are not as visible; doesn’t mean they are few.

    The third culture kid prole whisperer and dinner party explainer is a cliché. It isn't unique to the Middle East, but found all over the world. Bringing it up in response to your cliché of the optimistic yet parochial Westerner was proportionate. You know even less about me than I do about you.

    Replies: @Yahya

    I replied to your analysis of your assumed biases of mine

    Well my comment on Western wishful thinking was not specifically about you; but about broader Western attitudes. That’s why I used the third-person not the second.

    while comparing you to Orwell and calling you intelligent and open-minded, please apologise for this first

    Well thank you if that was your intention. But that’s not the impression I got from your comment. You phrased it thusly:

    It is the self-flattering fantasy of genuinely open-minded and compassionate elites, by which I exclude progressives.

    Again, using the third (them) instead of second person (you). So I didn’t take it as a personal compliment. Also when you compared me to Orwell; it was for an action which you described previously in an unflattering manner.

    • Replies: @Leaves No Shadow
    @Yahya


    Well my comment on Western wishful thinking was not specifically about you; but about broader Western attitudes.
     
    Ok, I shouldn't have understood it as you trying to describe me or analyse my biases whatsoever?

    Replies: @Yahya

  670. @Beckow
    @LatW


    ...Arm ourselves.
     
    That's like saying that when one gets piss-drunk the solution is to drink more. Good luck with that.

    You and I don't disagree much, but I assign equal fault to the irrational Kiev posturing (rejecting Minsk) and the Anglo madmen who decided that Nato in Ukraine was a great idea. Your suggestion that Russia could have waited and blow up any missiles on its border is, frankly, idiotic. Nobody acts that way. Would US sit back and wait as Russia takes control of Quebec? Of course not, everyone knows it - you simply don't give Russia the same rights. The war is to determine whether Russia can assert these rights. So far it looks like they are able to: there will be no Nato in Ukraine, no bases, no missiles - how can that be a victory for Washington?


    most of the Ukrainian male population might need to go through fighting - which is heartbreaking
     
    What are they going to die for? They had independence and they blew it. They will not improve their living standards - wars are destructive, people die and leave. They will not defeat Russia and march around Red Square or even Donetsk. They are dying to feed the Western neo-con egos - a total waste that would be comical if it wasn't so sad.

    AP's Galician retreat is a step back - shrunken homeland. If the morons in Kiev implemented Minsk, the homeland would be much bigger, with no sacrifices and almost certain ability to eventually manipulate Donbas into compliance (money talks :)... If his dream comes true it won't be an Intermarium, it will be a larger Moldova - very poor, with most people leaving and Poland in the role of Romania. Not much to look forward to.

    But as we say 'those you can't advise, you can't help', so you guys enjoy the mayhem, hope for the best....and of course 'arm yourself'...that will be a lot of help...And it could have been so much easier if people just used some rationality and stop treating anything Russian as the devil-incarnate.

    Replies: @AP, @LatW

    They [Ukrainians] had independence and they blew it

    They had independence and this is what they are fighting for. Russia’s ultimatum was for a foreign country to determine what political parties were allowed or not allowed to exist in Ukraine (so-called “de-Nazification”), for a foreign country to determine Ukraine’s internal language policies, for a foreign country to decide he size of Ukraine’s military, for a foreign country to have its own autonomous mini-state within Ukraine that would have veto power over that country’s own policies, and for a foreign country to determine what foreign organizations or alliances Ukraine could or could not join.

    In other words, Russia demanded that Ukraine surrender its independence.

    We know that you would do that. Ukrainians refused.

    AP’s Galician retreat is a step back – shrunken homeland

    You are repeating your lie. I described a Ukraine reduced to Galicia and Volhynia as “extremely unlikely” and added:

    “Most likely though would be stalemate at the current line of contact (give or take some places like Bakhmut or even Kramatorsk), with a good chance of Ukraine taking back the corridor to Crimea but not fortified and urban Donbas.”

    I did note that such a Ukraine would converge with its western neighbors because it’s the most functional part of Ukraine and would benefit from many of the most educated young people escaping Russian- occupied Ukraine. Already Kharkiv firms have reopened in Lviv, which has seen its population swell by 150,000, mostly young people. The Russian-speakers from the East are noticing that their kids in the Ukrainian schools are Ukrainian-speaking.

    • Agree: LatW
    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @AP

    It seems that Beckov and his ilk would only be pleased with a result of Ukraine ceasing to be Ukraine, and become instead a part and parcel of Russia itself. What would be left would be a totally emaciated state, like Belarus, with only the trappings of independence. Or better yet, like Kuban territory, a totally rusified region that was originally made-up of Ukrainian people. History has already shown the world that this is no longer possible.

    , @Beckow
    @AP


    ...for a foreign country to determine...
     
    Based on your list there are no independent countries in Europe, they all fall under one of your tendentious description of foreign meddling and mischief. Germany is definitely not independent (it has been de-Nazified and occupied). And remember EU has a 'minority rights' policy, is that also meddling? You are a moron who repeats nonsense slogans without thinking through what they mean, what is the context.

    Lviv is on its way to become the next Kishinev. Substitute Poland for Romania and Transnistria for the contested border in the middle of Ukraine and you are there. Enjoy, Moldova can be quite a treat :)...

    Replies: @AP

  671. @HeavilyMarbledSteak
    @Sher Singh

    Is it possible, like a typical modern, you're influenced by the literalist movement that inevitably ends in nihilism? - I don't think Mr Singh you are giving us an accurate portrayal of Sikhism so much as you are giving us modernity :) This is something that is a problem for all religions these days, so don't be personally offended - AP is giving us modernity instead of Christianity no less than you.

    David Bentley Hart said if he couldn't be an Orthodox Christian, he'd be "perfectly happy being a Sikh" - somehow, I don't see him as taking up your religion of the double edged sword, though, and talking about worshipping weapons :)

    Somehow, I don't think the God described below literally wants us to worship weapons.


    To speak of “God” properly—in a way, that is, consonant with the teachings of orthodox Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Sikhism, Vedantic and Bhaktic Hinduism, Bahá’í, much of antique paganism, and so forth—is to speak of the one infinite ground of all that is: eternal, omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, uncreated, uncaused, perfectly transcendent of all things and for that very reason absolutely immanent to all things.

    God so understood is neither some particular thing posed over against the created universe, in addition to it, nor is he the universe itself. He is not a being, at least not in the way that a tree, a clock, or a god is; he is not one more object in the inventory of things that are. He is the infinite wellspring of all that is, in whom all things live and move and have their being. He may be said to be “beyond being,” if by “being” one means the totality of finite things, but also may be called “being itself,” in that he is the inexhaustible source of all reality, the absolute upon which the contingent is always utterly dependent, the unity underlying all things.

    To speak of “gods,” by contrast, is to speak only of a higher or more powerful or more splendid dimension of immanent reality. Any gods who might be out there do not transcend nature but belong to it. Their theogonies can be recounted—how they arose out of the primal night, or were born of other, more titanic progenitors, and so on—and in many cases their eventual demises foreseen. Each of them is a distinct being rather than “being itself,” and it is they who are dependent upon the universe for their existence rather than the reverse. Of such gods there may be an endless diversity, while of God there can be only one. Or, better, God is not merely one—not merely singular or unique—but is oneness as such, the sole act of being by which any finite thing exists and by which all things exist together.

    Obviously, then, it is the transcendent God in whom it is ultimately meaningful not to believe. The possibility of gods or spirits or angels or demons, and so on, is all very interesting to contemplate, but remains a question not of metaphysics but only of the taxonomy of nature (terrestrial, celestial, and chthonic). To be an atheist in the best modern sense, and so to be a truly intellectually and emotionally fulfilled naturalist in philosophy, one must genuinely succeed in not believing in God, with all the logical consequences this entails.
     

    Replies: @Sher Singh, @Coconuts, @Mr. Hack

    I have no reason to disbelieve Sher Singh about the precepts of his Sikh faith. I too at one time thought that it was a peaceful faith similar to the Persian Baha’i faith. It’s reliance on the “double edged sword” no doubt has a lot to do with its tumultuous history. Unlike the Baha’i faith, I don’t think that its appeal will ever transcend much the borders of its original Indian followers. I could be wrong?

    • Replies: @HeavilyMarbledSteak
    @Mr. Hack

    In my experience with religions, modern people rarely understand their own faith. There has been a general across the board corruption of religion. These days, the last person I would trust is the average practitioner.

    When I looked into Judaism a few years ago, I discovered that it was nothing like what my Orthodox friends believed and practiced. For instance, classical Judaism has all sorts of stern injunctions against focusing on making money, yet like Protestants, my Orthodox friends tell me Jewish wealth is a sign of Gods blessings.

    Religions are practiced in the breach :)

    As for Sikhism, what little I know of it is that's it's a beautiful peace loving religion at its highest levels, but I'd love to explore more.

    I hope Sher Singh stays and together we can explore his lovely religion and see what we can discover.

    I doubt it will become a universal religion, but surely it can be welcomed into the world's panoply of higher religions on equal terms.

    And DBH is a fan, so it can't be bad :)

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @AP

  672. @Yahya
    @Leaves No Shadow


    I replied to your analysis of your assumed biases of mine
     
    Well my comment on Western wishful thinking was not specifically about you; but about broader Western attitudes. That’s why I used the third-person not the second.

    while comparing you to Orwell and calling you intelligent and open-minded, please apologise for this first
     
    Well thank you if that was your intention. But that’s not the impression I got from your comment. You phrased it thusly:

    It is the self-flattering fantasy of genuinely open-minded and compassionate elites, by which I exclude progressives.
     
    Again, using the third (them) instead of second person (you). So I didn’t take it as a personal compliment. Also when you compared me to Orwell; it was for an action which you described previously in an unflattering manner.

    Replies: @Leaves No Shadow

    Well my comment on Western wishful thinking was not specifically about you; but about broader Western attitudes.

    Ok, I shouldn’t have understood it as you trying to describe me or analyse my biases whatsoever?

    • Replies: @Yahya
    @Leaves No Shadow


    Ok, I shouldn’t have understood it as you trying to describe me or analyse my biases whatsoever?
     
    Yes, you understood me wrong. However, it may not be your fault; just the natural misunderstandings which arise from internet interactions.

    As a rule; it’s a good idea not to contradict me on anything. I’m always right and people who gainsay me tend to regret it. The world would work better if only people just listen to me; without arguing back.

    But alas, the world is not perfect.

    Replies: @Leaves No Shadow

  673. @LatW
    @QCIC


    If the build up to 2014 had been truly organic (no external meddling) I can imagine a tiny chance that a negotiated coexistence might have been possible.
     
    This was organic, the Europeans live quite close to each other so in a way it is natural that some of the neighbors supported Maidan (most didn't realize it would lead to physical altercations). It is normal to look for external help sometimes, however, your camp is trying to deny that there was an organic, local movement that was significant enough. And your ideological camp seems to ignore when these get squashed violently and then you pretend as if it was never there ("solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant - create a desert and call it peace"). This is a familiar MO. Possibly in Ukraine's case it happened several times before (such as when some Stalin sympathizing Western diplomats pretended that the Holodomor was not taking place).

    And even if there is what you call external meddling, do the Ukrainians not have a right to go out and express their political will? And then call for help from those who are like minded?

    the activities of the Ukrainian nationalist movement were strongly fostered by the West
     
    A nationalist movement grows from within. Where a healthy male child is born, there is a nationalist movement.

    These activities are objectively there and they express the will of the people, similar to how it has been in other EE countries.

    I think Crimea was always a huge challenge for a negotiated resolution
     
    Crimea may be challenging due to its history (there are many influences there, of several nationalities). Because there are many such cases, we stick to the principle of territorial integrity. If one is going to renegotiate borders, like Russia tried to, then this opens a Pandora's box essentially and in that case we need to renegotiate the status of, for example, places such as Kaliningrad as well. And probably several other issues that were left behind in 1991 (such as the repatriation of Russians from the former USSR).

    I wonder if a supremely wise Ukrainian leader could have negotiated it away
     
    No leader who "negotiates away" territory is wise. In a democracy or a land defined by the Cossack spirit of freedom, one cannot make those decisions single handedly. No matter who they are - the president or some State Department official. The people will raise a Maidan if you go against their will - this is how it works there.

    You sound very hasty as to dole out other people's territory. If others started dividing and carving up your people's territory, your people would be up in arms (as they have been historically).

    so crucial to the Ukrainian ideal in exchange for more important commitments from Russia?
     
    Russia rarely makes commitments when it comes to what she believes is "historical Russia". Russia has not learned to respect others. What you write is very naive.


    Unfortunately, that may be too big a leap for any politician to make (maybe this was tried, I don’t know).
     
    One must treat Russia as a force of Nature. As weather. One prepares for bad weather and calamities. If they don't, they will have to endure it.

    So much Soviet blood was spilled in Ukraine that giving it up is probably unthinkable for much of the Russian leadership
     
    The blood that was spilled was Ukrainian. Ukrainians spilled their blood so that Russians wouldn't be invaded by genocidal Germans. So did others by the way that RusFed and the likes of you conveniently forget about.

    I think there may have been room for some sort of negotiated Ukrainian homeland
     
    There is absolutely nothing to negotiate. The Ukrainian homeland is where Ukrainians have lived historically, since ancient times. The Ukrainians have historically lived in both Slobozhanshchyna (N.Eastern Ukraine) and even in southern Russia.

    You do not break into another person's house and then start negotiating which room belongs to them or not. When you do this by force, you risk being subjected to international law. Above all, when you start doing this, others may start doing it too and sometimes even to you.

    Replies: @QCIC

    The Ukrainians can attempt to do whatever they want, but actions have consequences. The current mess in Ukraine seems to be a predictable outcome of Maidan and the troubles it led to in Donbass. It seems the Ukrainians underestimated the situation and made a major mistake. I think they misunderstood the role they play in the West’s plan. Perhaps some saw it as a once in a lifetime opportunity to create the homeland you discuss, but what if they all end up dead? I think following a different path to pursue their goals would have been wiser. Maybe expecting that is too much to ask considering the number of wars which this region has seen. Fighting and dying is what the people know.

  674. @AP
    @Beckow


    They [Ukrainians] had independence and they blew it
     
    They had independence and this is what they are fighting for. Russia’s ultimatum was for a foreign country to determine what political parties were allowed or not allowed to exist in Ukraine (so-called “de-Nazification”), for a foreign country to determine Ukraine’s internal language policies, for a foreign country to decide he size of Ukraine’s military, for a foreign country to have its own autonomous mini-state within Ukraine that would have veto power over that country’s own policies, and for a foreign country to determine what foreign organizations or alliances Ukraine could or could not join.

    In other words, Russia demanded that Ukraine surrender its independence.

    We know that you would do that. Ukrainians refused.


    AP’s Galician retreat is a step back – shrunken homeland
     
    You are repeating your lie. I described a Ukraine reduced to Galicia and Volhynia as “extremely unlikely” and added:

    “Most likely though would be stalemate at the current line of contact (give or take some places like Bakhmut or even Kramatorsk), with a good chance of Ukraine taking back the corridor to Crimea but not fortified and urban Donbas.”

    I did note that such a Ukraine would converge with its western neighbors because it’s the most functional part of Ukraine and would benefit from many of the most educated young people escaping Russian- occupied Ukraine. Already Kharkiv firms have reopened in Lviv, which has seen its population swell by 150,000, mostly young people. The Russian-speakers from the East are noticing that their kids in the Ukrainian schools are Ukrainian-speaking.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @Beckow

    It seems that Beckov and his ilk would only be pleased with a result of Ukraine ceasing to be Ukraine, and become instead a part and parcel of Russia itself. What would be left would be a totally emaciated state, like Belarus, with only the trappings of independence. Or better yet, like Kuban territory, a totally rusified region that was originally made-up of Ukrainian people. History has already shown the world that this is no longer possible.

  675. @Mr. Hack
    @HeavilyMarbledSteak

    I have no reason to disbelieve Sher Singh about the precepts of his Sikh faith. I too at one time thought that it was a peaceful faith similar to the Persian Baha'i faith. It's reliance on the "double edged sword" no doubt has a lot to do with its tumultuous history. Unlike the Baha'i faith, I don't think that its appeal will ever transcend much the borders of its original Indian followers. I could be wrong?

    Replies: @HeavilyMarbledSteak

    In my experience with religions, modern people rarely understand their own faith. There has been a general across the board corruption of religion. These days, the last person I would trust is the average practitioner.

    When I looked into Judaism a few years ago, I discovered that it was nothing like what my Orthodox friends believed and practiced. For instance, classical Judaism has all sorts of stern injunctions against focusing on making money, yet like Protestants, my Orthodox friends tell me Jewish wealth is a sign of Gods blessings.

    Religions are practiced in the breach 🙂

    As for Sikhism, what little I know of it is that’s it’s a beautiful peace loving religion at its highest levels, but I’d love to explore more.

    I hope Sher Singh stays and together we can explore his lovely religion and see what we can discover.

    I doubt it will become a universal religion, but surely it can be welcomed into the world’s panoply of higher religions on equal terms.

    And DBH is a fan, so it can’t be bad 🙂

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @HeavilyMarbledSteak

    Not all that long ago, I visited a large scale conference of the Baha'i faith. The reason being was that they offered the participants a great opportunity to listen to a concert of two of my favorite guitarists, Strunz and Farrah - for free mind you. The latter it appears is a practitioner of their faith. Anyway, I can say that it was an interesting experience (the concert more than anything else. :-) ). It was during this time period that I first seemed to notice some similarities between the two faith systems, even thought that they might consider merging in order to be able to attract more adherents and increase their following. I can't remember now, exactly why I thought that the two faith systems were similar, but it transcended both their abilities to build aesthetically interesting temples of worship. Perhaps a smidge of Gurdjieffism could be added on, and a truly attractive new age pantheistic faith could emerge? :-)

    Like DBH, I'm ultimately very content to continue my adherence to Jesus Christ within the framework of the Orthodox faith.

    Replies: @HeavilyMarbledSteak

    , @AP
    @HeavilyMarbledSteak

    So you claim to know more about Judaism than do devout and practicing Orthodox Jews, more about Christianity than do actual Christians, even to know more about Sikhism than do actual Sikhs. Your pride and arrogance are on an epic scale, but is typical of Modern people.

    Replies: @HeavilyMarbledSteak

  676. Question about the war:

    Under what future circumstances can we see both sides perceiving that they have more to gain from peace than continuing to fight?

    This is generally the precondition for peace since absolute victory for either side is impossible.

    Absolute victory involves installing your own government over their country, so f you believe this actually is possible, please ignore my posts. I have no interest in talking with you. Let’s leave it at that.

    Continuing, I think this will be when Russia realises that Western support will continue and will grow. The conversion of the Ukrainian military to NATO equipment is achieved through this support and therefore this support is given out of self-interest. So the longer the war goes on, the more NATO Ukraine gets.

    I also think Western powers will need to establish credible conditions for sanctions relief, to reassure Ukraine of its commitment to its security and to remind Russia that future formal Ukrainian neutrality is still possible.

    Alternatively, Russia can request these things from the West.

    On land, Russian control of Crimea is under genuine military threat. Something under genuine military threat is not a given in negotiations. Meanwhile, the pre-war Russian-controlled territories of the urban Donbas are not. Negotiations can involve them but probably only if Russia doesn’t want them, or is given excellent sanctions relief. The Russian gains of the first weeks of the war are unlikely to be conceded by Ukraine. At least not if they are expected to stay neutral, not take huge reparations and not build their military much larger after armistice or peace.

    Thoughts?

    • Replies: @QCIC
    @Leaves No Shadow

    I think this circumstance needs to be reached for an end to the SMO: total exhaustion on the Ukrainian side and weariness on the Russian side.

    My guess is that eventually enough Ukrainians will tire of the pointless destruction and rise up to toss out the Kolomoiski boys. They seem to be slow learners so Western Ukraine may be a bombed-out hell-scape by then.

    Replies: @Leaves No Shadow

  677. @HeavilyMarbledSteak
    @Mr. Hack

    In my experience with religions, modern people rarely understand their own faith. There has been a general across the board corruption of religion. These days, the last person I would trust is the average practitioner.

    When I looked into Judaism a few years ago, I discovered that it was nothing like what my Orthodox friends believed and practiced. For instance, classical Judaism has all sorts of stern injunctions against focusing on making money, yet like Protestants, my Orthodox friends tell me Jewish wealth is a sign of Gods blessings.

    Religions are practiced in the breach :)

    As for Sikhism, what little I know of it is that's it's a beautiful peace loving religion at its highest levels, but I'd love to explore more.

    I hope Sher Singh stays and together we can explore his lovely religion and see what we can discover.

    I doubt it will become a universal religion, but surely it can be welcomed into the world's panoply of higher religions on equal terms.

    And DBH is a fan, so it can't be bad :)

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @AP

    Not all that long ago, I visited a large scale conference of the Baha’i faith. The reason being was that they offered the participants a great opportunity to listen to a concert of two of my favorite guitarists, Strunz and Farrah – for free mind you. The latter it appears is a practitioner of their faith. Anyway, I can say that it was an interesting experience (the concert more than anything else. 🙂 ). It was during this time period that I first seemed to notice some similarities between the two faith systems, even thought that they might consider merging in order to be able to attract more adherents and increase their following. I can’t remember now, exactly why I thought that the two faith systems were similar, but it transcended both their abilities to build aesthetically interesting temples of worship. Perhaps a smidge of Gurdjieffism could be added on, and a truly attractive new age pantheistic faith could emerge? 🙂

    Like DBH, I’m ultimately very content to continue my adherence to Jesus Christ within the framework of the Orthodox faith.

    • Replies: @HeavilyMarbledSteak
    @Mr. Hack


    Like DBH, I’m ultimately very content to continue my adherence to Jesus Christ within the framework of the Orthodox faith.
     
    As you should. It is a great faith that I learn a lot from.

    I'm also a fan of the Bahai faith. I like their saying that every religion deserved to be the world religion had it remained true to it's principles.

    They seem to believe that religions arise but then get corrupted, and God sends a new messenger. They seem to think their own faith isn't inherently superior but only the latest messenger from God.

    I like that, and think it's largely true.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @AnonfromTN

  678. @Leaves No Shadow
    @Yahya


    Well my comment on Western wishful thinking was not specifically about you; but about broader Western attitudes.
     
    Ok, I shouldn't have understood it as you trying to describe me or analyse my biases whatsoever?

    Replies: @Yahya

    Ok, I shouldn’t have understood it as you trying to describe me or analyse my biases whatsoever?

    Yes, you understood me wrong. However, it may not be your fault; just the natural misunderstandings which arise from internet interactions.

    As a rule; it’s a good idea not to contradict me on anything. I’m always right and people who gainsay me tend to regret it. The world would work better if only people just listen to me; without arguing back.

    But alas, the world is not perfect.

    • LOL: A123
    • Replies: @Leaves No Shadow
    @Yahya

    Is this a Middle Eastern form of apology? Or a fancy boarding school one?

    Replies: @Yahya

  679. @HeavilyMarbledSteak
    @Mr. Hack

    In my experience with religions, modern people rarely understand their own faith. There has been a general across the board corruption of religion. These days, the last person I would trust is the average practitioner.

    When I looked into Judaism a few years ago, I discovered that it was nothing like what my Orthodox friends believed and practiced. For instance, classical Judaism has all sorts of stern injunctions against focusing on making money, yet like Protestants, my Orthodox friends tell me Jewish wealth is a sign of Gods blessings.

    Religions are practiced in the breach :)

    As for Sikhism, what little I know of it is that's it's a beautiful peace loving religion at its highest levels, but I'd love to explore more.

    I hope Sher Singh stays and together we can explore his lovely religion and see what we can discover.

    I doubt it will become a universal religion, but surely it can be welcomed into the world's panoply of higher religions on equal terms.

    And DBH is a fan, so it can't be bad :)

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @AP

    So you claim to know more about Judaism than do devout and practicing Orthodox Jews, more about Christianity than do actual Christians, even to know more about Sikhism than do actual Sikhs. Your pride and arrogance are on an epic scale, but is typical of Modern people.

    • Agree: Sher Singh
    • Replies: @HeavilyMarbledSteak
    @AP

    If everyone simply listened to consensus and authority, no religion would have ever gotten off the ground.

    Replies: @AP

  680. @HeavilyMarbledSteak
    @Coconuts

    I think that's a rather tendentious presentation.

    But anyways I'm not a reactionary or a traditionalist. I'm in favor of rescuing everything that was good about tradition and incorporating it into a new synthesis, but obviously there were many horrific things about tradition - we tend to forget modernity emerged out of tradition, and nihilism emerged out of certain tendencies in traditional Christian thought, so obviously a simple return would be pointless, and obviously people who actually lived in tradition didn't find it so unreservedly fabulous.

    In the end I'm not am either/or type guy, but a synthesist and a syncretist.

    As for Sher Singh, his extreme literalist/factual interpretation of Sikhism - which is actually a beautiful religion of ultimate peace like all the great faiths - can only be a product of the literalist spirit of modernity.

    Replies: @Coconuts

    I think that’s a rather tendentious presentation.

    Schmitt was a sharp thinker. He indicates the way in which the things on the left, while they sound great, aren’t necessarily, and the things on the right side of the list have their place. I will try to briefly explain:

    You can see with the first opposition:

    Liberty, progress and reason vs. Feudalism, reaction and violence.

    Feudalism refers to inherited social status and power, but more broadly to any hereditary identity that isn’t consciously chosen. Liberty to individual autonomy and conscious choice by the will. Progress ends up being a belief that indefinite augmentation of material growth and individual autonomy is an inevitability. Reason would be the belief that everything is rationally intelligible and the world can be reconstructed by universal rules to eliminate all conflict.

    Economics, technology and industry vs. The State, war and politics.

    The State here is the idea that humanity is divided into different political entities. Politics refers to the fact that when controversial decisions about the future of the community need to be taken, groups can divide into friend/enemy factions who struggle to impose their view. This can result in war.

    Following the older view of modernity, developments in industry, technology and commerce are ideally supposed to lead to the elimination of all these phenomena.

    Parliamentarianism vs. Dictatorship.

    This one relates to the idea that all controversial decisions can be settled by rational discussion leading to consensus, there being no need for a sovereign authority to impose a resolution or decision. Also that laws can be made to cover every eventuality, so no more sovereign decisions will be needed if exceptional circumstances arise.

    I think you start to see that modernity in these terms is more like an aspiration and inspiration, a certain vision, a bit like the kind of ‘myth of Socialism’ Georges Sorel talked about.

    In the end I’m not am either/or type guy, but a synthesist and a syncretist.

    It’s a reasonable position to take.

    As for Sher Singh, his extreme literalist/factual interpretation of Sikhism…

    It could be due to the fact there are different ‘paths in’ to criticise modernity, depending on which aspect is being approached.

    • Replies: @HeavilyMarbledSteak
    @Coconuts

    Lots of good things about modernity, but the overwhelming fact about modernity is it's nihilism - that's really the chief thing. Once we disentangle the sources of that and correct that mistake, we can assess the rest.

    And that's bound up with the kind of over-literal factualism that I was criticizing.

    To be fair to Sher, there obviously is a military element to Sikhism - I believe directed against Muslims. But obviously Sikhism is not just about weapons worship.

  681. @Coconuts
    @Mikel


    Being God, He could have easily chosen any method to repeat His message: a worldwide appearance in the sky, a collective dream, a synchronous apparition to every human being, the possibilities are endless. And that would have guaranteed that indeed sinners would sin out of free will, rather than ignorance or following wrong messages from other religions.
     
    I think if you try to explain the detail of these endless possibilities (when they are like things appearing in the sky or physical apparitions) you find none of them are really convincing evidence for God.

    Dawkins himself admitted this in a later interview when the question of alien activity and the activity of powerful spiritual beings (but not God) was raised.

    Sceptical escalation is always possible, from a sceptical perspective doubting the existence of an external world or the existence of human persons and minds (including your own) is plausible, never mind doubting something like God.

    Imo it seems to point to the conclusion that the only evidence for God, if you are working from an empiricist and nominalist starting point, is direct divine revelation to each individual in a way that eliminated all possibility of doubt or question. Maybe implanting knowledge directly into people's minds. Knowledge of this sort, say of God's infinite perfection and infinite being and his place as the fulfilment of human life would tend to preclude sin; there is no sin in heaven.

    OTOH if you are not an empiricist or a nominalist there are more arguments to be found for God in everyday human experience, outside miraculous events.

    Replies: @Mikel

    Sceptical escalation is always possible

    Yes, even if they heard God talking to them, there would probably still be some sinners. But let’s be careful here. You are comparing the doubt about what your senses are telling you with the doubt about a story that is logically inconsistent. That’s akin to comparing the belief in your eyes when they tell you that it’s snowing outside with the belief in the existence of the Yeti.

    AP was offering explanations of why God purportedly acted the way He did and I just proposed a much more logical course of action if that was really God’s objective. If He wanted people all over the world to listen to His message and stop sinning, sending an emissary to a place that most humans had not heard about with an ambiguous message (we were just discussing the other day what Jesus’ words meant) and having him brutally killed is a tremendously inefficient way to accomplish such a desire. Not surprisingly, a big majority of people on earth never heeded His advice and continue to believe in other deities or not believe in any at all. It’s as if getting people to believe in an extraordinary story that doesn’t make a lot of sense was more important for God than getting them to lead virtuous lives.

    • Replies: @Coconuts
    @Mikel


    AP was offering explanations of why God purportedly acted the way He did and I just proposed a much more logical course of action if that was really God’s objective.
     
    If God is the sort of God AP believes in (i.e. the omnipotent, omniscient first cause one) he would have a range of different options open to realise his will. Assuming this is something like encouraging humanity to be more perfect and to be unified with him, as you find in Catholicism and Orthodoxy.

    If He wanted people all over the world to listen to His message and stop sinning, sending an emissary to a place that most humans had not heard about with an ambiguous message (we were just discussing the other day what Jesus’ words meant) and having him brutally killed is a tremendously inefficient way to accomplish such a desire.
     
    God may have Platonic inclinations, so he may know that by assuming human form himself he would deify human beings, but to become incarnate he would have to do it at some place and at some moment in time as all of them are located somewhere and exist at some point in time. Being brutally killed could be related to his requirement for justice for all the sins humanity might have committed and might commit in the future before they can approach him, maybe he just decided to take that on himself while incarnate as a type of free gift. A bit like the 'generosity of power' I mentioned earlier on.

    It’s as if getting people to believe in an extraordinary story that doesn’t make a lot of sense was more important for God than getting them to lead virtuous lives.
     
    Would God have to believe that almost guaranteeing that every human leads a morally virtuous life on earth must be his aim? If it's the Christian God he already has made legions of powerful angels who already lead these kinds of perfectly virtuous lives eternally. God's aim for humanity might have been something else, as mentioned above.
    , @LatW
    @Mikel


    sending an emissary to a place that most humans had not heard about with an ambiguous message
     
    It is to create a connection with humanity, it's a graceful gesture and an invitation to connect. How the humans decide to take it is up to them as they have free will.
  682. @Leaves No Shadow
    @Yahya

    Evaluation of sources by past predictive power:

    A person who read the survey I provided would have been unsurprised by the still ongoing protests, even in the dead of winter, in an often bitterly cold country, but someone who read yours would have been shocked.

    Boldly going on the record:

    The Iranian governing apparatus won't last the year, no matter how many more women they beat to death in the street. By the end of spring, even you will agree.

    WVS Database:

    The 2020 WVS Survey was conducted from Britain. Previously, it was always in Irany. They were obviously blocked and didn't change their methodology for reasons of not wanting to rock the boat for the future. Their results are meaningless.

    Gamaan:

    The collection method, given the sample size, is fine for this survey. Statistics is magic if done well. And you don't need to be brilliant to do it well. Think of all of the polls and how obscenely accurate they are. People complain and call the liars if they are 3% off! I would complain and call a shop liars if I went there during a "sale" and the discount was 15%, nevermind 3%.

    Personal biases:

    I think people like you have a bias towards ordinary people remaining stupid bumpkins. It puts people like you in a more powerful position as a mediating middle-man. It also imbues a positive self-image for you as cultured yet grounded. Nothing wrong with this, but I think it rather changes your perception of reality and will result in you being surprised. This is a common phenomenon throughout the world. Even George Orwell spoke of the proles the same way. It is the self-flattering fantasy of genuinely open-minded and compassionate elites, by which I exclude progressives.

    Replies: @Yahya, @A123

    The Iranian governing apparatus won’t last the year, no matter how many more women they beat to death in the street. By the end of spring, even you will agree.

    I was hoping this would be the case.

    However, Khamenei is backing away from ruthless suppression which was accelerating the counter revolution. Now, the regime is letting the protest burn itself out in specific, hard to control, locations. Tough tactics are happening where they believe containment will be successful. You can find more detailed reports here:

    https://understandingwar.org/project/iran-project

    The most likely regime change path for Iran is military. The IRGC is well on its way to being fully capitalist via its control of State Owned Enterprises [SOE]. Their the religious fervor is rapidly fading. At some point, the no longer revolutionary IRGC will decide that overly devout fundamentalism is an impediment to their profit statement.

    A Mubarak or El-Sisi figure would be a huge improvement in Iran’s ability to return to global commerce, while still resisting European SJW contamination.

    PEACE 😇

  683. @Barbarossa
    @songbird

    This summer while building my addition a chicken got into my house and went jetting out with the tiny kitten riding it's back angling for the kill.

    The chicken escaped unscathed but the kitten had high hopes.

    My data set is small and my information anecdotal so I can sadly offer little certainty in this pressing scientific matter.

    Replies: @songbird

    This summer while building my addition a chicken got into my house and went jetting out with the tiny kitten riding it’s back angling for the kill.

    Sounds like it would have made a good tiktok clip.

    [MORE]

    In terms of locomotion, no doubt that cats have a higher burst speed. ~30 mph, compared to ~15-20 mph for a chicken, flapping its wings, or 9 mph for a non-flapping chicken. They say a chicken can run for 2 hours (at 9mph), so they must have more endurance.

    But my interest is more in striking speed, or registration speed.

    I once saw a clip of someone holding an injured eagle up close – and I’m thinking, You know that bird could turn its head 180 degrees and pluck out your eye, before you could even blink, let alone try to block it, if it had the sudden whim.

    Or such is my estimation. I may be exaggerating only slightly.

    • Replies: @S
    @songbird


    I once saw a clip of someone holding an injured eagle up close – and I’m thinking, You know that bird could turn its head 180 degrees and pluck out your eye, before you could even blink, let alone try to block it, if it had the sudden whim.
     
    I have often wondered about the same thing when I see a person on YouTube that will have his or her 'talking' pet crow with it's rather large, powerful, and sharp beak right in their face.

    People make a mistake of engaging in excessive anthropomorphism in regards to animals.

    Yes, while they share, in particular some of the mammals, some of our human traits, they are at the same time quite different in temperament and outlook, which ought to be respected. I think intellectually, in the case of certain birds and mammals, they are at most at about the age of a 2-3 year old human child.

    There's been plenty of cases where people thought they could be 'one' with sharks, bears, tigers, chimpanzees, raccoons, pit bulls, etc, which ended badly for the humans involved, and wasn't too good for the animals either, who often enough are then euthanized.

    Getting back to birds, while I've never heard of one pecking at a person's eyes, is it something that has even been studied? I know that some bird owners report their birds pecking at their face or biting fingers, of which they 'peck' back to discourage the bird's behaviour.

    It would be interesting to find out just how often pet birds, as well as run of the mill dogs and cats, do unprovoked meaningful physical harm to their human owners, particularly to vulnerable children and infants who might be part of the household. The hospitals, with their eye specialists, probably know the actual score in this regard. [Also makes me wonder if there has been some covering up in this regard due to the close historic bond between humans and birds, not to mention with dogs and cats.]

    The lovely Lene Lovich and her 'Bird Song':


    https://youtu.be/maucjGIUzzo

  684. @Barbarossa
    @A123

    The "pure blood" thing is obnoxious and mirrors the same attitude as the Covid paranoiacs. You may say it's just to give them a taste of their own medicine (har har) but it's easy enough for a Larp like this to become entrenched.

    Replies: @A123

    The “pure blood” thing is obnoxious and mirrors the same attitude as the Covid paranoiacs. You may say it’s just to give them a taste of their own medicine

    Well yes… “Pure Blood” versus “Mud Blood” is a rhetorical two-fer. Not only does it annoy the SJW’s with cold, hard facts — It also is a call out to JK Rowling who has agitated the Leftoids by not blindly obeying their fatwas.

    This one is likely to stick for good reason though.

    The science on inherited impact will be cloudy for at least a decade. The young, who have yet to conceive children, have a sound genetic bias for “Pure Blood” marriages.

    PEACE 😇
    ________

    Rule 5: “Ridicule Is Man’s Most Potent Weapon”
    Rules For Radicals, Saul Alinsky

  685. [MORE]

    • Thanks: Barbarossa
  686. @Yahya
    @songbird

    I was checking out the new figures for GDP per capita (nominal) in 2022 and noticed something very strange.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita

    Iran = $23,034
    Latvia = $21,482
    Greece = $20,876
    Slovakia = $20,565
    Poland = $19,023
    Hungary = $18,983
    Romania = $15,619
    Russia = $14,665
    Turkey = $9,961

    Apparently Iran in 2022 outproduced most Eastern European countries and Turkey; if the statistics are to be believed. Surprising given that it is supposedly underneath heavy sanctions and experiencing significant political turmoil. One could attribute the figure to increased oil & gas revenue; but oil prices increased no more than 2x over the past year, whereas Iran’s GDP per capita has quintupled from 2021 to 2022, when it was just $4,091. No other major fossil fuel exporter has seen a comparable increase in per capita figures.

    I strongly doubt Iran is more prosperous than Poland or Hungary, or even Russia or Turkey. Something is a bit off with the nominal figures. The PPP figures have their problems too; but I don’t think they would produce such an odd outcome. In the PPP figures; Poland and Hungary would be placed at the $42,000 mark while Iran would go down to $18,000; which makes more sense imo.

    Replies: @Emil Nikola Richard, @Blinky Bill, @songbird

    Iran is hard country to get a good feel for because it is so big and variegated.

  687. Dom ain’t wrong, the Biden clown show has made the US a dangerous laughing stock amongst us elite.

    [MORE]

  688. @Mikel
    @Coconuts


    Sceptical escalation is always possible
     
    Yes, even if they heard God talking to them, there would probably still be some sinners. But let's be careful here. You are comparing the doubt about what your senses are telling you with the doubt about a story that is logically inconsistent. That's akin to comparing the belief in your eyes when they tell you that it's snowing outside with the belief in the existence of the Yeti.

    AP was offering explanations of why God purportedly acted the way He did and I just proposed a much more logical course of action if that was really God's objective. If He wanted people all over the world to listen to His message and stop sinning, sending an emissary to a place that most humans had not heard about with an ambiguous message (we were just discussing the other day what Jesus' words meant) and having him brutally killed is a tremendously inefficient way to accomplish such a desire. Not surprisingly, a big majority of people on earth never heeded His advice and continue to believe in other deities or not believe in any at all. It's as if getting people to believe in an extraordinary story that doesn't make a lot of sense was more important for God than getting them to lead virtuous lives.

    Replies: @Coconuts, @LatW

    AP was offering explanations of why God purportedly acted the way He did and I just proposed a much more logical course of action if that was really God’s objective.

    If God is the sort of God AP believes in (i.e. the omnipotent, omniscient first cause one) he would have a range of different options open to realise his will. Assuming this is something like encouraging humanity to be more perfect and to be unified with him, as you find in Catholicism and Orthodoxy.

    If He wanted people all over the world to listen to His message and stop sinning, sending an emissary to a place that most humans had not heard about with an ambiguous message (we were just discussing the other day what Jesus’ words meant) and having him brutally killed is a tremendously inefficient way to accomplish such a desire.

    God may have Platonic inclinations, so he may know that by assuming human form himself he would deify human beings, but to become incarnate he would have to do it at some place and at some moment in time as all of them are located somewhere and exist at some point in time. Being brutally killed could be related to his requirement for justice for all the sins humanity might have committed and might commit in the future before they can approach him, maybe he just decided to take that on himself while incarnate as a type of free gift. A bit like the ‘generosity of power’ I mentioned earlier on.

    It’s as if getting people to believe in an extraordinary story that doesn’t make a lot of sense was more important for God than getting them to lead virtuous lives.

    Would God have to believe that almost guaranteeing that every human leads a morally virtuous life on earth must be his aim? If it’s the Christian God he already has made legions of powerful angels who already lead these kinds of perfectly virtuous lives eternally. God’s aim for humanity might have been something else, as mentioned above.

  689. @QCIC
    @LatW

    I agree that my comment was not fully formed. I was trying to give a hint of an explanation for my theory on MacGregor without getting into important ideas including the ones you mention. My underlying point is that for some survivors of the Cold War, the idea of avoiding nuclear war may take on a life of its own.

    I do believe the West sees Ukraine as a stepping stone to crush Russia's power. I expect that victory in Ukraine would lead to other Western-sponsored wars using Russia's neighbors against her. Sadly, a Russian victory may lead to the same thing.

    Replies: @LatW, @AnonfromTN

    I do believe the West sees Ukraine as a stepping stone to crush Russia’s power. I expect that victory in Ukraine would lead to other Western-sponsored wars using Russia’s neighbors against her. Sadly, a Russian victory may lead to the same thing.

    After huge investment by the empire and its vassals into Ukraine, it looks like both the empire and the RF see this as an existential conflict. Sadly, as this is either the US or the RF, regardless of the outcome in Ukraine, additional pawns will be thrown into the conflict.

    Long time ago the best chancellor in German history Bismarck clearly stated that marching on Moscow is a bad career move. But the imperial puppeteers are ignorant.

  690. @HeavilyMarbledSteak
    @Mikel

    Yeah, Robert D Kaplan in his book Earning the Rockies described the Mountain West as basically being a desert with oases, and I remember being incredulous - I read this well before I had travelled extensively in the West. But I'm beginning to see his point.

    I haven't been there recently, but years ago I found some very verdant and lush places in western Montana - almost too much like the East Coast for my taste - and that narrow strip of Idaho that separates Montana from Washington had me driving through a gorgeous pine forest that was amazingly green and verdant.

    I don't think you can go wrong with either the Idaho Rockies or the Winds :) Both are incredible in their own right. However, the Winds have earned themselves a reputation as the finest slice of mountain scenery in the lower 48, and not without reason. But you do have to work harder to access that, so that's a consideration.

    Nothing wrong with beaches and sun :) These are pure sensuous pleasures that greatly add to the joy of life.

    Yes, I am and remain fascinated by van life, a modern form of nomadism. When I travel out West I basically live out of my small RAV4, so I'm doing SUV life for several months at a time. I love it on general but if I did it for longer, I think I'd really want something roomier and bigger so I'd get a van.

    I think van life and nomadism is one of the coolest trends to emerge recently and gives me hope.

    You and your wife could always retire to van life :) Some of these vans can be amazingly luxurious and we'll appointed. It can be a modernized version of Hindus taking to wandering the mountains on old age.

    Replies: @Sher Singh, @Mikel

    When I travel out West I basically live out of my small RAV4

    It may not be as comfortable as the gorgeous van of the Youtube guy but I’m sure it’s a luxury compared with the Seat 127 we used in the 80s to camp. We just folded the front seats back when it was time sleep and that was it.

    We were planning to upgrade to a Renault Nevada that we hoped would give us a long enough permanent sleeping space behind:

    But then life happened and the plan never materialized. As John Lennon masterfully put it, life is what happens while you’re making plans for the future.

    I watched several videos of this funny guy of the van-camper. He seems to be more into computer games than nature but yes, those Idaho mountain views were very interesting. I think it looks like the Wasatch Back (eastern side of the range) and definitely drier than I expected. But I see the minimum temp last night in Stanley was -31F, quite colder than here. Another place I must visit as soon as I can.

    • Replies: @HeavilyMarbledSteak
    @Mikel

    Lol, yeah, definitely appreciate the Rav after thinking about you camping in that absurd thing :) I'm sure it was fun though at the time.

    Minus 31 F - so cold! When I was there it was quite hot during the day, upper 80s, but deliciously chilly in the mornings like the low 50s. I love those chilly summer mornings.

    I'm sure there's a ton of winter fun to be had near Stanley - enjoy.

  691. @Leaves No Shadow
    Question about the war:

    Under what future circumstances can we see both sides perceiving that they have more to gain from peace than continuing to fight?

    This is generally the precondition for peace since absolute victory for either side is impossible.

    Absolute victory involves installing your own government over their country, so f you believe this actually is possible, please ignore my posts. I have no interest in talking with you. Let's leave it at that.

    Continuing, I think this will be when Russia realises that Western support will continue and will grow. The conversion of the Ukrainian military to NATO equipment is achieved through this support and therefore this support is given out of self-interest. So the longer the war goes on, the more NATO Ukraine gets.

    I also think Western powers will need to establish credible conditions for sanctions relief, to reassure Ukraine of its commitment to its security and to remind Russia that future formal Ukrainian neutrality is still possible.

    Alternatively, Russia can request these things from the West.

    On land, Russian control of Crimea is under genuine military threat. Something under genuine military threat is not a given in negotiations. Meanwhile, the pre-war Russian-controlled territories of the urban Donbas are not. Negotiations can involve them but probably only if Russia doesn't want them, or is given excellent sanctions relief. The Russian gains of the first weeks of the war are unlikely to be conceded by Ukraine. At least not if they are expected to stay neutral, not take huge reparations and not build their military much larger after armistice or peace.

    Thoughts?

    Replies: @QCIC

    I think this circumstance needs to be reached for an end to the SMO: total exhaustion on the Ukrainian side and weariness on the Russian side.

    My guess is that eventually enough Ukrainians will tire of the pointless destruction and rise up to toss out the Kolomoiski boys. They seem to be slow learners so Western Ukraine may be a bombed-out hell-scape by then.

    • Replies: @Leaves No Shadow
    @QCIC

    I think it would be extraordinary if the invaded country were exhausted first. Almost without precedence in history.

    Replies: @AnonfromTN

  692. @Beckow
    @LatW


    ...Arm ourselves.
     
    That's like saying that when one gets piss-drunk the solution is to drink more. Good luck with that.

    You and I don't disagree much, but I assign equal fault to the irrational Kiev posturing (rejecting Minsk) and the Anglo madmen who decided that Nato in Ukraine was a great idea. Your suggestion that Russia could have waited and blow up any missiles on its border is, frankly, idiotic. Nobody acts that way. Would US sit back and wait as Russia takes control of Quebec? Of course not, everyone knows it - you simply don't give Russia the same rights. The war is to determine whether Russia can assert these rights. So far it looks like they are able to: there will be no Nato in Ukraine, no bases, no missiles - how can that be a victory for Washington?


    most of the Ukrainian male population might need to go through fighting - which is heartbreaking
     
    What are they going to die for? They had independence and they blew it. They will not improve their living standards - wars are destructive, people die and leave. They will not defeat Russia and march around Red Square or even Donetsk. They are dying to feed the Western neo-con egos - a total waste that would be comical if it wasn't so sad.

    AP's Galician retreat is a step back - shrunken homeland. If the morons in Kiev implemented Minsk, the homeland would be much bigger, with no sacrifices and almost certain ability to eventually manipulate Donbas into compliance (money talks :)... If his dream comes true it won't be an Intermarium, it will be a larger Moldova - very poor, with most people leaving and Poland in the role of Romania. Not much to look forward to.

    But as we say 'those you can't advise, you can't help', so you guys enjoy the mayhem, hope for the best....and of course 'arm yourself'...that will be a lot of help...And it could have been so much easier if people just used some rationality and stop treating anything Russian as the devil-incarnate.

    Replies: @AP, @LatW

    That’s like saying that when one gets piss-drunk the solution is to drink more. Good luck with that.

    In purely technical terms, this is not so, because Eastern Europeans were never “drunk” with weapons, they were actually under militarized. If Russia won, the Ukrainians would have to leave the task of fighting Russia to their children (which is always unfortunate), and other neighbors would have to take their defense much more seriously than they previously have. The attractive gentleman that the Czechs just elected as their president would probably agree (or rather, I would be a priori agreeing with him, since he has said something along those same lines).

    [MORE]

    As to going forward, we don’t know whether after the conflict we will engage with Russia somehow at all or if it will be a new Cold War with very minimal engagement.

    but I assign equal fault to the irrational Kiev posturing (rejecting Minsk) and the Anglo madmen who decided that Nato in Ukraine was a great idea.

    The population didn’t want Minsk, even if the leadership had wanted it, it would be difficult to steer such a large population into any desired direction. Remember that historically Ukraine has already given up a lot of its territory and people (both through things such as Holodomor and export of people to Russia through out the ages), so it’s a lot to ask to give up more. Look how Hungarians and even other nations are clinging on to their populations (understandably so). You cannot reasonably expect that a nation which is larger than most European nations will be easily pushed around.

    Your suggestion that Russia could have waited and blow up any missiles on its border is, frankly, idiotic.

    This is not just my suggestion, but from some in the Russian General Staff, even if they don’t accept Ukraine’s ideology and leadership. Russia has always said they have all kinds of advanced weapons, this should be easy for them, especially given that they have Kaliningrad and Crimea. Kaliningrad in particular is a territory very far West which they have historically never held. Essentially they received it with the help of Anglos and other allies. They are able to hit several core European capitals from there.

    Nobody acts that way. Would US sit back and wait as Russia takes control of Quebec?

    Surely, the best is of course for the neighbors to not irritate each other. That goes without saying.

    I know you don’t agree, but it’s not just about the US. There is also the aspect of the European aspirations. Europe and Ukraine like each other now. So it would be unnatural to try to push them apart by force. The question is – according to you, only Russia can determine how her neighbors are armed? And what policies they have? That’s very ambitious given that there are many neighbors and that Russia has her own internal problems. Best would have been to placate the situation from both sides. Understanding that Ukraine will go her own way. But then try to set some parameters of co-existence.

    The war is to determine whether Russia can assert these rights.

    Correct. This war is about several things, and one can say that the above is one of the aspects. It’s about testing the limits of Russia in the 21st century. Russia knows how much is at stake so fighting relentlessly.

    everyone knows it – you simply don’t give Russia the same rights.

    Such level of “rights” that they desire must be fought for or earned (you have a limited outlook of what they want, they want more than you realize). Nobody will give you something like that on a platter. One has to assert oneself in the right manner. If you want to assert with force, then expect some force in return. This would be the case anywhere in Nature, not just between countries. I think it’s finally dawning on them that this will be the case here as well.

    So far it looks like they are able to: there will be no Nato in Ukraine, no bases, no missiles – how can that be a victory for Washington?

    Well, Washington doesn’t lose either way in this case (unless Ukraine is crushed completely which they won’t be). As to missiles, we don’t yet know – the West might send long range missiles, so in that case this will be a fact, even if Ukraine is not in NATO formally, de facto, they are receiving something that looks awfully close to Article 5 in action. Besides, the armaments that have been delivered so far are already quite impressive. Most NATO countries are not even so full of weapons. It might even be that some border areas of Russia are also not as well armed (such as Belgorod oblast).

    Whether the conversation about NATO will continue after the war, remains to be seen. Ukraine is open to this conversation and the West is the usual way (“keeping the door open”), so we don’t know yet. If there is an attempt to give Ukraine some kind of security guarantees, this may come up. Although I believe their main security guarantee is their armed forces.

    What are they going to die for? They had independence and they blew it.

    They haven’t blown it, since they still control most of their country. They are now a subject of international politics, not an object. Besides, they have more fans in the world than ever in their history.

    As to the mobilization of all or most Ukrainian men, I hope and pray this will never come to pass. But I heard it on YouTube from at least two experienced militiamen, so it’s worrisome. I really hope they are wrong.

    They will not defeat Russia and march around Red Square or even Donetsk.

    They are not intent on marching on Moscow. The way they envision the Russian capitulation would be Russia retreating, leaving their territory and as a result Russia would have to focus internally on the turf wars that would ensue – this is hypothetical and not a given that this will happen, of course, but one can already see some of that taking shape with the recent ugly spat between Girkin and Prigozhin. There are now apparently over 20 private military companies in Russia. Even Shoigu apparently has one.

    Don’t be so sure about Donetsk, hypothetically, Donetsk could be shelled again. Mariupol may not be the only large city that gets wiped out. It’s that serious (and, yes, horrific). The goal of the Ukrainian military is not to shell cities and towns, but to eliminate the supply routes in order to force the Russians to retreat (the way they did in Kherson).

    AP’s Galician retreat is a step back – shrunken homeland.

    He mentioned that he doesn’t believe this to be the likely scenario. AP always held the position of letting parts of Donbas go – it’s a highly rational position of just letting the problematic Eastern areas go, drop the unneeded ballast, so to speak. This makes sense from the point of view of making it easier for Ukraine to move on, but it’s not the position that most Ukrainians hold, even many Easterners – one doesn’t give up territory so easily. From the Western point of view, it’s not so bad – Western Ukraine will get integrated into the EU, and Poland gets an extra million of productive white people. Lviv will become a big city finally. Not a bad outcome overall, it’s only bad for Ukrainian patriots and for Ukraine as a nation state (and even this scenario will not materialize since they will keep most of their territory – I think Kharkiv and Dnipro will stand).

    If his dream comes true it won’t be an Intermarium

    It will still be an Intermarium, since there will be access to the Black Sea in Odessa, just a much smaller one.

    And it could have been so much easier if people just used some rationality and stop treating anything Russian as the devil-incarnate.

    Yes, there is a lot of acrimony and deserved hatred of Russia but it’s not like Russia had it that bad with her neighbors. There was a huge Russophone population and many spoke Russian even across wider areas. There were many millions of carriers of essentially the Russian culture. All of that is going out the window now. The so called Russian world will shrink. They also had access to commerce in Europe which they have lost now. They did manage to steal some of the Ukrainian chernozem, but it’s not a given that they will get to keep it.

    • Replies: @Beckow
    @LatW

    A thoughtful response, thanks. But you meander and project based on things that are unlikely. I will address some of them:


    Ukies have more fans in the world than ever in their history....
    Russian culture...All of that is going out the window now. The so called Russian world will shrink.
     
    Fandom is a form of fashion - and as we all know, any fashion has an average longevity of around three years. It is as likely that Ukies will be cursed for their intransigence and lowered EU econ. standards. Don't count your chickens before they hatch.

    How is the Russian world shrinking if it has just grown with acquisitions in Ukraine? (Belarus is also quiet and loyal again.) You can't describe something that has just grown as 'shrinking' no matter how much you would like that.


    Washington doesn’t lose either way in this case - unless Ukraine is crushed completely which they won’t be
     
    Really? Ukraine will be crushed - the completeness of it will be in the eye of the beholder. But it will be defeated - those are the odds, that will be a very serious setback for Washington. The very real plans for Nato in Ukraine have already been crushed, another massive defeat for Washington. Now you can sit here and pretend that didn't happen or hallucinate about what will "Nato do with missiles, blabla..." in the future, but that is all way too hypothetical. So far, Nato is out and looks very unlikely to get back to the same position they had a year ago in Ukraine.

    In general, you substitute future possibilities and threats for the current reality on the ground. E,g. Intermarium with Odessa that can be easily blockaded is not much of a mini-empire. Or Lviv with all those Kiev-Kharkiv refugees will still be a poor city shedding more able people to the West - another Kishinev, or if you prefer Sophia. Those are not prosperous places.

    We don't know how the war will go, we only know the disposition of forces. Based on that certain odds can be derived, Kiev has maybe 10-15% chance of succeeding, a nuclear war is about 10-%, but the most likely outcome of 75-80% is Russia winning and dictating the terms of peace. Washington knows this quite well - they would like to prolong the war since it costs them very little.

    My last point: general Pavel is a former commie who studied in Moscow, and "president" of Czechia is a ceremonial position. He was elected because he eludes calm and people want less arguing. But it makes little geo-political difference.

    Replies: @AnonfromTN, @LatW, @AP

  693. @Mikel
    @Coconuts


    Sceptical escalation is always possible
     
    Yes, even if they heard God talking to them, there would probably still be some sinners. But let's be careful here. You are comparing the doubt about what your senses are telling you with the doubt about a story that is logically inconsistent. That's akin to comparing the belief in your eyes when they tell you that it's snowing outside with the belief in the existence of the Yeti.

    AP was offering explanations of why God purportedly acted the way He did and I just proposed a much more logical course of action if that was really God's objective. If He wanted people all over the world to listen to His message and stop sinning, sending an emissary to a place that most humans had not heard about with an ambiguous message (we were just discussing the other day what Jesus' words meant) and having him brutally killed is a tremendously inefficient way to accomplish such a desire. Not surprisingly, a big majority of people on earth never heeded His advice and continue to believe in other deities or not believe in any at all. It's as if getting people to believe in an extraordinary story that doesn't make a lot of sense was more important for God than getting them to lead virtuous lives.

    Replies: @Coconuts, @LatW

    sending an emissary to a place that most humans had not heard about with an ambiguous message

    It is to create a connection with humanity, it’s a graceful gesture and an invitation to connect. How the humans decide to take it is up to them as they have free will.

  694. @LatW
    @Beckow


    That’s like saying that when one gets piss-drunk the solution is to drink more. Good luck with that.
     
    In purely technical terms, this is not so, because Eastern Europeans were never "drunk" with weapons, they were actually under militarized. If Russia won, the Ukrainians would have to leave the task of fighting Russia to their children (which is always unfortunate), and other neighbors would have to take their defense much more seriously than they previously have. The attractive gentleman that the Czechs just elected as their president would probably agree (or rather, I would be a priori agreeing with him, since he has said something along those same lines).

    As to going forward, we don't know whether after the conflict we will engage with Russia somehow at all or if it will be a new Cold War with very minimal engagement.

    but I assign equal fault to the irrational Kiev posturing (rejecting Minsk) and the Anglo madmen who decided that Nato in Ukraine was a great idea.
     
    The population didn't want Minsk, even if the leadership had wanted it, it would be difficult to steer such a large population into any desired direction. Remember that historically Ukraine has already given up a lot of its territory and people (both through things such as Holodomor and export of people to Russia through out the ages), so it's a lot to ask to give up more. Look how Hungarians and even other nations are clinging on to their populations (understandably so). You cannot reasonably expect that a nation which is larger than most European nations will be easily pushed around.

    Your suggestion that Russia could have waited and blow up any missiles on its border is, frankly, idiotic.
     
    This is not just my suggestion, but from some in the Russian General Staff, even if they don't accept Ukraine's ideology and leadership. Russia has always said they have all kinds of advanced weapons, this should be easy for them, especially given that they have Kaliningrad and Crimea. Kaliningrad in particular is a territory very far West which they have historically never held. Essentially they received it with the help of Anglos and other allies. They are able to hit several core European capitals from there.

    Nobody acts that way. Would US sit back and wait as Russia takes control of Quebec?
     
    Surely, the best is of course for the neighbors to not irritate each other. That goes without saying.

    I know you don't agree, but it's not just about the US. There is also the aspect of the European aspirations. Europe and Ukraine like each other now. So it would be unnatural to try to push them apart by force. The question is - according to you, only Russia can determine how her neighbors are armed? And what policies they have? That's very ambitious given that there are many neighbors and that Russia has her own internal problems. Best would have been to placate the situation from both sides. Understanding that Ukraine will go her own way. But then try to set some parameters of co-existence.

    The war is to determine whether Russia can assert these rights.
     
    Correct. This war is about several things, and one can say that the above is one of the aspects. It's about testing the limits of Russia in the 21st century. Russia knows how much is at stake so fighting relentlessly.

    everyone knows it – you simply don’t give Russia the same rights.
     
    Such level of "rights" that they desire must be fought for or earned (you have a limited outlook of what they want, they want more than you realize). Nobody will give you something like that on a platter. One has to assert oneself in the right manner. If you want to assert with force, then expect some force in return. This would be the case anywhere in Nature, not just between countries. I think it's finally dawning on them that this will be the case here as well.

    So far it looks like they are able to: there will be no Nato in Ukraine, no bases, no missiles – how can that be a victory for Washington?
     
    Well, Washington doesn't lose either way in this case (unless Ukraine is crushed completely which they won't be). As to missiles, we don't yet know - the West might send long range missiles, so in that case this will be a fact, even if Ukraine is not in NATO formally, de facto, they are receiving something that looks awfully close to Article 5 in action. Besides, the armaments that have been delivered so far are already quite impressive. Most NATO countries are not even so full of weapons. It might even be that some border areas of Russia are also not as well armed (such as Belgorod oblast).

    Whether the conversation about NATO will continue after the war, remains to be seen. Ukraine is open to this conversation and the West is the usual way ("keeping the door open"), so we don't know yet. If there is an attempt to give Ukraine some kind of security guarantees, this may come up. Although I believe their main security guarantee is their armed forces.

    What are they going to die for? They had independence and they blew it.
     
    They haven't blown it, since they still control most of their country. They are now a subject of international politics, not an object. Besides, they have more fans in the world than ever in their history.

    As to the mobilization of all or most Ukrainian men, I hope and pray this will never come to pass. But I heard it on YouTube from at least two experienced militiamen, so it's worrisome. I really hope they are wrong.

    They will not defeat Russia and march around Red Square or even Donetsk.
     
    They are not intent on marching on Moscow. The way they envision the Russian capitulation would be Russia retreating, leaving their territory and as a result Russia would have to focus internally on the turf wars that would ensue - this is hypothetical and not a given that this will happen, of course, but one can already see some of that taking shape with the recent ugly spat between Girkin and Prigozhin. There are now apparently over 20 private military companies in Russia. Even Shoigu apparently has one.

    Don't be so sure about Donetsk, hypothetically, Donetsk could be shelled again. Mariupol may not be the only large city that gets wiped out. It's that serious (and, yes, horrific). The goal of the Ukrainian military is not to shell cities and towns, but to eliminate the supply routes in order to force the Russians to retreat (the way they did in Kherson).

    AP’s Galician retreat is a step back – shrunken homeland.
     
    He mentioned that he doesn't believe this to be the likely scenario. AP always held the position of letting parts of Donbas go - it's a highly rational position of just letting the problematic Eastern areas go, drop the unneeded ballast, so to speak. This makes sense from the point of view of making it easier for Ukraine to move on, but it's not the position that most Ukrainians hold, even many Easterners - one doesn't give up territory so easily. From the Western point of view, it's not so bad - Western Ukraine will get integrated into the EU, and Poland gets an extra million of productive white people. Lviv will become a big city finally. Not a bad outcome overall, it's only bad for Ukrainian patriots and for Ukraine as a nation state (and even this scenario will not materialize since they will keep most of their territory - I think Kharkiv and Dnipro will stand).

    If his dream comes true it won’t be an Intermarium

     

    It will still be an Intermarium, since there will be access to the Black Sea in Odessa, just a much smaller one.

    And it could have been so much easier if people just used some rationality and stop treating anything Russian as the devil-incarnate.
     
    Yes, there is a lot of acrimony and deserved hatred of Russia but it's not like Russia had it that bad with her neighbors. There was a huge Russophone population and many spoke Russian even across wider areas. There were many millions of carriers of essentially the Russian culture. All of that is going out the window now. The so called Russian world will shrink. They also had access to commerce in Europe which they have lost now. They did manage to steal some of the Ukrainian chernozem, but it's not a given that they will get to keep it.

    Replies: @Beckow

    A thoughtful response, thanks. But you meander and project based on things that are unlikely. I will address some of them:

    Ukies have more fans in the world than ever in their history….
    Russian culture…All of that is going out the window now. The so called Russian world will shrink.

    Fandom is a form of fashion – and as we all know, any fashion has an average longevity of around three years. It is as likely that Ukies will be cursed for their intransigence and lowered EU econ. standards. Don’t count your chickens before they hatch.

    How is the Russian world shrinking if it has just grown with acquisitions in Ukraine? (Belarus is also quiet and loyal again.) You can’t describe something that has just grown as ‘shrinking’ no matter how much you would like that.

    Washington doesn’t lose either way in this case – unless Ukraine is crushed completely which they won’t be

    Really? Ukraine will be crushed – the completeness of it will be in the eye of the beholder. But it will be defeated – those are the odds, that will be a very serious setback for Washington. The very real plans for Nato in Ukraine have already been crushed, another massive defeat for Washington. Now you can sit here and pretend that didn’t happen or hallucinate about what will “Nato do with missiles, blabla…” in the future, but that is all way too hypothetical. So far, Nato is out and looks very unlikely to get back to the same position they had a year ago in Ukraine.

    In general, you substitute future possibilities and threats for the current reality on the ground. E,g. Intermarium with Odessa that can be easily blockaded is not much of a mini-empire. Or Lviv with all those Kiev-Kharkiv refugees will still be a poor city shedding more able people to the West – another Kishinev, or if you prefer Sophia. Those are not prosperous places.

    We don’t know how the war will go, we only know the disposition of forces. Based on that certain odds can be derived, Kiev has maybe 10-15% chance of succeeding, a nuclear war is about 10-%, but the most likely outcome of 75-80% is Russia winning and dictating the terms of peace. Washington knows this quite well – they would like to prolong the war since it costs them very little.

    My last point: general Pavel is a former commie who studied in Moscow, and “president” of Czechia is a ceremonial position. He was elected because he eludes calm and people want less arguing. But it makes little geo-political difference.

    • Replies: @AnonfromTN
    @Beckow


    We don’t know how the war will go, we only know the disposition of forces. Based on that certain odds can be derived, Kiev has maybe 10-15% chance of succeeding, a nuclear war is about 10-%, but the most likely outcome of 75-80% is Russia winning and dictating the terms of peace. Washington knows this quite well – they would like to prolong the war since it costs them very little.
     
    This is the war between the US and the RF. While your estimates of probable outcomes in Ukraine are about correct, this war won’t end with Ukraine. Ukraine is not a player, it’s just a disposable pawn used by its masters to achieve their ends. Ukies don’t understand that, but that’s their problem: they are paying for their stupidity with hundreds of lives every day. The luckiest ones become POWs.

    Additional disposable pawns that the empire wouldn’t hesitate to sacrifice for its geostrategic objectives within 1-3 years are Baltic microstates and Poland. Romania, Moldova, and some other Eastern European countries might end up thrown under the bus, too. It’s a bit sad that they will disappear. Then again, they have only themselves to blame.

    My prediction is that the empire will balk when the question of sacrificing Germany arises. Not because it cares about Germans, but because it cares about damage control. If Putin remains at the helm in Russia, the empire is likely to be allowed to keep Germany. Than there won’t be a global war. If by that time someone else is the RF president, all bets are off: considering prevailing public mood in Russia and the direction in which it is changing, anyone who has a chance will be a lot more anti-Western and combative than Putin and other people of his generation (which, broadly speaking, happens to be my generation). I look at the prospect optimistically (Russian style): being dead, we won’t have any problems.

    Replies: @A123, @Greasy William, @LatW, @Beckow

    , @LatW
    @Beckow


    A thoughtful response, thanks.
     
    Thanks, Beckow, I appreciate your intellect, even if I may not agree with you in all cases. Nobody is happy with the war, it's probably a once in a 300 years type of nightmare. Definitely a historic development of massive proportions.

    Fandom is a form of fashion – and as we all know, any fashion has an average longevity of around three years.
     
    True, there is an element of moment in time, it could pass, and support could decline somewhat. What matters is the relationships that were formed that weren't there previously - the volunteer networks, political communication, consolidation of the West, the changed perceptions.

    It is as likely that Ukies will be cursed for their intransigence and lowered EU econ. standards.
     
    Of course, there is an economic burden. Why blame only Ukraine for that? Btw, it looks like inflation was bound to happen anyway, there was too much QE. Wouldn't you at least agree with that? Of course, the war makes it much worse. It's very unfortunate. Also, even if Ukraine is supported now, with time Ukraine will have to figure out how to start making money again.

    How is the Russian world shrinking if it has just grown with acquisitions in Ukraine?
     
    The territorial gains, while very real, are still fragile. Further mobilization will be required to hold them down and to create a buffer. They have managed to take some of the population (including by kidnapping children). So I would agree that they do have some considerable gains (but significant losses as well). If we look at the population in the East, it has been reduced. Those who fled West, into Central and Western parts of Ukraine, their children will eventually become Ukrainian speaking. Those who fled into the EU will speak Ukrainian / Russian, and their children will speak host languages as well, and there is a risk of assimilation. They definitely will not be Russian or Russian speaking in the future (on the contrary, they will hold in their memory the idea of Russia as the violator of their lives). Land is good to have but the Russians have squandered a lot of Russophone population. Then again, if this population are Russophone Ukrainians who hate Russians anyway, then it may not be worth it for them, on the contrary, they would want to eliminate them. I heard that the Russians want to set up a large number of concentration camps in East Ukraine. This is actually very significant with the future in mind, since essentially we will be living next door to that (if they succeed). If the French and Germans will ignore that, I won't speak to them anymore. Think about what this means for human rights.

    The very real plans for Nato in Ukraine have already been crushed, another massive defeat for Washington.
     
    We are talking about two different things. NATO as a political organization? Yes, it might be that the eventual membership is still questionable (but I'm not sure if it is entirely out of the question long term). But the de facto situation is that Ukraine has become a full on ally of the West. It is still an unstable situation, of course. But Ukrainians have a considerable amount of control. Of course, I'm not denying that Ukraine's losses have been immense.

    E,g. Intermarium with Odessa that can be easily blockaded is not much of a mini-empire.
     
    It is not an ideal situation and it would have to be strengthened, but it is not nothing. It is still quite a large chunk of land and resources.

    Or Lviv with all those Kiev-Kharkiv refugees will still be a poor city shedding more able people to the West – another Kishinev, or if you prefer Sophia. Those are not prosperous places.
     
    They may be shedding people, but those are generally not small places. Lviv and Kyiv have quite a bit of potential. In my book, they don't have to be super prosperous (although they could be more prosperous than before), what is important is that they retain the Ukrainian culture. And are amicable to Poland, et al. Which will be the case long term.

    We don’t know how the war will go, we only know the disposition of forces.
     
    There are some unknowns still, such as the state of the Russian troops who are arriving now, the real state of the Wagner company, the ideas that the Ukrainian General Staff are working on as to the next steps (this is a military secret and one can only model possible scenarios).

    a nuclear war is about 10-%
     
    I'm not sure it's that high.

    general Pavel is a former commie who studied in Moscow, and “president” of Czechia is a ceremonial position
     
    Many wanted to study in Moscow back in those days. It looks like he joined the Communist party in 1985, which is late (not good, of course), but not that late. Things moved very fast back then and 1985 was not 1989. Yes, it's not great, but one had to join the party to have a career. It looks like he comes from a military family, I don't see how he could've had a military career beyond a certain very low level without joining the party. This is just for career purposes. But I may be wrong. And, no, it is not great, but it's been over 30 years now.. we need to think about how to leave this all behind (even if we learn lessons from it and remain vigilant).

    As to the ceremonial position, it really depends on how he will carry himself. If he is charismatic with novel ideas, awesome, he could have impact. If he is more mellow and serves a unifying role, then that's good, too. I don't know much about him but he has made some reasonable, realistic remarks. There is some realistic language that I like about NATO having become too much of a "political" organization:

    "NATO over the years has become probably too politically correct in our own way that we were circling around the problems without being able to identify true nature. I was facing that situation even in a military committee when I asked my colleagues to come back to the basics and speak as soldiers, not as politicians or diplomats. At least around the table so that we understand each other."

    Replies: @S, @Beckow

    , @AP
    @Beckow


    Or Lviv with all those Kiev-Kharkiv refugees will still be a poor city shedding more able people to the West
     
    Lviv is beautiful and large enough, and close enough to western Europe, to retain and attract people. The ones who leave will be replaced and then some by people from Kiev and Kharkiv. New neighborhoods are being built to house them, the city is growing and expanding. The city has already gained 150,000 people and entire companies have relocated from Kharkiv and are still operating in Lviv.

    https://www.lemonde.fr/en/international/article/2022/07/04/lviv-city-of-refuge-for-ukrainian-companies-fleeing-the-war_5988919_4.html

    https://www.ukrinform.net/rubric-economy/3577782-over-200-businesses-relocated-to-lviv-region-most-of-them-already-working-tymoshenko.html

    Over 200 Ukrainian businesses have relocated to the Lviv region as part of the business relocation program, and 144 of them are already working.



    https://www.weareukraine.info/the-war-turned-lviv-into-the-largest-it-hub-in-ukraine-as-mass-relocation-has-caused-40-million-losses-for-the-industry/

    The war turned Lviv into the largest IT hub in Ukraine as mass relocation has caused $40 million losses for the industry

    "Lviv and the region has become the main relocation destination for Ukrainian technology companies. Before the war, the city was the third IT center of Ukraine after Kyiv and Kharkiv, with around 30,000 IT specialists. Now Lviv has become its IT capital.

    According to Lviv IT Cluster’s estimates, Ukrainian IT companies have spent at least $30-40 million on moving to Lviv alone. Companies were relocating also to cities of Uzhhorod and Ivano-Frankivsk.

    Meanwhile, IT has been of the few industries that has successfully stayed afloat in the wartime economy. As of the beginning of March, 98% of the IT companies were still in business, about 42% had the same workload, and one in fifteen received even more orders."
  695. @AP
    @Beckow


    They [Ukrainians] had independence and they blew it
     
    They had independence and this is what they are fighting for. Russia’s ultimatum was for a foreign country to determine what political parties were allowed or not allowed to exist in Ukraine (so-called “de-Nazification”), for a foreign country to determine Ukraine’s internal language policies, for a foreign country to decide he size of Ukraine’s military, for a foreign country to have its own autonomous mini-state within Ukraine that would have veto power over that country’s own policies, and for a foreign country to determine what foreign organizations or alliances Ukraine could or could not join.

    In other words, Russia demanded that Ukraine surrender its independence.

    We know that you would do that. Ukrainians refused.


    AP’s Galician retreat is a step back – shrunken homeland
     
    You are repeating your lie. I described a Ukraine reduced to Galicia and Volhynia as “extremely unlikely” and added:

    “Most likely though would be stalemate at the current line of contact (give or take some places like Bakhmut or even Kramatorsk), with a good chance of Ukraine taking back the corridor to Crimea but not fortified and urban Donbas.”

    I did note that such a Ukraine would converge with its western neighbors because it’s the most functional part of Ukraine and would benefit from many of the most educated young people escaping Russian- occupied Ukraine. Already Kharkiv firms have reopened in Lviv, which has seen its population swell by 150,000, mostly young people. The Russian-speakers from the East are noticing that their kids in the Ukrainian schools are Ukrainian-speaking.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @Beckow

    …for a foreign country to determine…

    Based on your list there are no independent countries in Europe, they all fall under one of your tendentious description of foreign meddling and mischief. Germany is definitely not independent (it has been de-Nazified and occupied). And remember EU has a ‘minority rights’ policy, is that also meddling? You are a moron who repeats nonsense slogans without thinking through what they mean, what is the context.

    Lviv is on its way to become the next Kishinev. Substitute Poland for Romania and Transnistria for the contested border in the middle of Ukraine and you are there. Enjoy, Moldova can be quite a treat :)…

    • Replies: @AP
    @Beckow


    Based on your list there are no independent countries in Europe, they all fall under one of your tendentious description of foreign meddling and mischief.
     
    Nonsense.

    Germany is definitely not independent (it has been de-Nazified and occupied).
     
    Germany was indeed occupied. If Germany wanted to legalize the Nazi party today, nobody would stop it. But Germans themselves don't want to do it, it's too embarrassing so they prefer a sly and milder version like Afd.

    So when Russia demanded to decide what Ukrainian political parties would be allowed it demanded to treat Ukraine as an occupied country, like Germany right after World War II.

    And remember EU has a ‘minority rights’ policy, is that also meddling?
     
    It isn't, because each EU country has the policy it wants. For example, France and the Baltic Republics don't want these minority language policies, so they don't have them. The others do want them, so they have them.

    Russia demanded to decide Ukraine's internal language policy. It demanded to limit Ukraine's independence.

    You forgot to mention Russia's other demands:

    Russia demanded that Russia got to decide the size of Ukraine's army and what kind of weapons Ukraine's army would be allowed to have.

    Russia demanded that Russia got to decide what alliances Ukraine would be allowed to join.

    Russia demanded that Russian-inhabited regions with ties to Russia would have special powers and be allowed to veto national policy. In other words, Russia demanded the power to shape Ukraine's constitution and the very organization of the Ukrainian state.

    In summary: Russia demanded that Ukraine surrender its independence.

    And you, as usual, dishonestly claim it wasn't so.

    The Ukrainian people did not want to surrender their independence, so they chose to fight.

    Lviv is on its way to become the next Kishinev
     
    Sour grapes. It's too educated, too nice, too technologically modern, too close to Poland, and unlike Moldova which is 35% or so Russophile it is fully anti-Russian. Next Vilnius at least.

    Replies: @AnonfromTN

  696. @Beckow
    @LatW

    A thoughtful response, thanks. But you meander and project based on things that are unlikely. I will address some of them:


    Ukies have more fans in the world than ever in their history....
    Russian culture...All of that is going out the window now. The so called Russian world will shrink.
     
    Fandom is a form of fashion - and as we all know, any fashion has an average longevity of around three years. It is as likely that Ukies will be cursed for their intransigence and lowered EU econ. standards. Don't count your chickens before they hatch.

    How is the Russian world shrinking if it has just grown with acquisitions in Ukraine? (Belarus is also quiet and loyal again.) You can't describe something that has just grown as 'shrinking' no matter how much you would like that.


    Washington doesn’t lose either way in this case - unless Ukraine is crushed completely which they won’t be
     
    Really? Ukraine will be crushed - the completeness of it will be in the eye of the beholder. But it will be defeated - those are the odds, that will be a very serious setback for Washington. The very real plans for Nato in Ukraine have already been crushed, another massive defeat for Washington. Now you can sit here and pretend that didn't happen or hallucinate about what will "Nato do with missiles, blabla..." in the future, but that is all way too hypothetical. So far, Nato is out and looks very unlikely to get back to the same position they had a year ago in Ukraine.

    In general, you substitute future possibilities and threats for the current reality on the ground. E,g. Intermarium with Odessa that can be easily blockaded is not much of a mini-empire. Or Lviv with all those Kiev-Kharkiv refugees will still be a poor city shedding more able people to the West - another Kishinev, or if you prefer Sophia. Those are not prosperous places.

    We don't know how the war will go, we only know the disposition of forces. Based on that certain odds can be derived, Kiev has maybe 10-15% chance of succeeding, a nuclear war is about 10-%, but the most likely outcome of 75-80% is Russia winning and dictating the terms of peace. Washington knows this quite well - they would like to prolong the war since it costs them very little.

    My last point: general Pavel is a former commie who studied in Moscow, and "president" of Czechia is a ceremonial position. He was elected because he eludes calm and people want less arguing. But it makes little geo-political difference.

    Replies: @AnonfromTN, @LatW, @AP

    We don’t know how the war will go, we only know the disposition of forces. Based on that certain odds can be derived, Kiev has maybe 10-15% chance of succeeding, a nuclear war is about 10-%, but the most likely outcome of 75-80% is Russia winning and dictating the terms of peace. Washington knows this quite well – they would like to prolong the war since it costs them very little.

    This is the war between the US and the RF. While your estimates of probable outcomes in Ukraine are about correct, this war won’t end with Ukraine. Ukraine is not a player, it’s just a disposable pawn used by its masters to achieve their ends. Ukies don’t understand that, but that’s their problem: they are paying for their stupidity with hundreds of lives every day. The luckiest ones become POWs.

    Additional disposable pawns that the empire wouldn’t hesitate to sacrifice for its geostrategic objectives within 1-3 years are Baltic microstates and Poland. Romania, Moldova, and some other Eastern European countries might end up thrown under the bus, too. It’s a bit sad that they will disappear. Then again, they have only themselves to blame.

    My prediction is that the empire will balk when the question of sacrificing Germany arises. Not because it cares about Germans, but because it cares about damage control. If Putin remains at the helm in Russia, the empire is likely to be allowed to keep Germany. Than there won’t be a global war. If by that time someone else is the RF president, all bets are off: considering prevailing public mood in Russia and the direction in which it is changing, anyone who has a chance will be a lot more anti-Western and combative than Putin and other people of his generation (which, broadly speaking, happens to be my generation). I look at the prospect optimistically (Russian style): being dead, we won’t have any problems.

    • Replies: @A123
    @AnonfromTN


    This is the war between the US and the RF
     
    I am not sure why this fallacious trope keeps being repeated. It is 100% obviously completely totally wrong.

    The conflict is driven by the European Empire. The U.S. is a puppet flailing around on tangled EU strings with little to no control.

    Ukraine is not a player, it’s just a disposable pawn used by its masters to achieve their ends. Ukies don’t understand that, but that’s their problem
     
    I concur.

    Ukie Maximalists, such as Zelensky, are pawns for the European WEF administering EU plans for the European Elites.

    Remember the European strategy for Ukraine is a failed state. There are millions of MENA origin migrants on fake identity papers that get to stay if "refugees" cannot return. The European Empire wants to lose.

    Additional disposable pawns that the empire wouldn’t hesitate to sacrifice for its geostrategic objectives within 1-3 years are Baltic microstates and Poland.
     
    These nations are under the NATO Nuclear umbrella of Article 5. Yes. German Elites would love to expunge them from Europe and the EU, however the risks of such strategy from Berlin seem immense.

    the empire will balk when the question of sacrificing Germany arises. Not because it cares about Germans, but because it cares about damage control.
     
    The four major powers of the European Axis are Berlin/Paris/Davos/Brussels.

    The bold move for German bankers would be getting rid of Italy. Germany is part of the "in" group with European WEF Elites. There is no chance of sacrificing the Jewel of the European Empire.
    ____

    The most likely key events for Ukraine are:

        • The Kiev regime will run short on cash in Fall
        • Zelensky will escape to the European Empire and retire comfortably
        • The new Ukrainian government will agree to an armistice
        • The final deal line will not move very far from the armistice

    It is in the interest of the European Empire to drag things out. However, the American people are not engaged. Their puppet Not-The-President Biden is losing the ability to deliver cash despite the demands from Davos. There is no chance for expanded support for disengaged America.

        ♦ What ruin will European Elites leave in the Ukrainian West?

        ♦ And, will the CCP ride to the rescue, buying up huge chunks of Ukrainian farm land?

    PEACE 😇

    Replies: @QCIC

    , @Greasy William
    @AnonfromTN


    Additional disposable pawns that the empire wouldn’t hesitate to sacrifice for its geostrategic objectives within 1-3 years are Baltic microstates and Poland. Romania, Moldova, and some other Eastern European countries might end up thrown under the bus, too. It’s a bit sad that they will disappear.
     
    I disagree with all of this. The dwarf states won't don't anything and Finland and Poland would both absolutely stomp Russia if it came to war, which it never would as there are no issues between them that could lead to war as there were with Ukraine.

    If the US was serious about winning this war, they would have already done a lot more for Ukraine than they have. Currently the US strategy is just to provide Ukraine with enough material to hold the line but to not give Ukraine enough to make any further territorial gains. It's not clear why the US has decided on this path but it is clear that this is how they want to play things.

    Tanks are not an escalation as they won't make any difference. Biden explicitly said today that there aren't going to be any F-16s. Well, without air superiority there is no way for Ukraine to break through the Russian lines. In fact, based on what we are seeing so far it might not even be possible for Ukraine to hold their current positions without air superiority.

    The RAND corporation article seems to indicate that Washington is looking for a way out. But that doesn't necessarily mean that Ukraine ceases to exist, what is more likely is a bloody stalemate

    Replies: @LatW, @AnonfromTN

    , @LatW
    @AnonfromTN


    Romania, Moldova, and some other Eastern European countries might end up thrown under the bus, too.
     
    What have Moldova done to you and why are you now picking on Moldova?

    Moldova has been quiet as a tiny mouse, doing nothing to anybody. Leave Moldova alone!

    Replies: @AnonfromTN

    , @Beckow
    @AnonfromTN


    ...I look at the prospect optimistically (Russian style): being dead, we won’t have any problems.
     
    Well, it is not exactly something to look forward to. Some here critizise me for giving the odds of a nuclear exchange (of some kind, could be tactical) at around 10%. That may be too high today, but in 3 or 6 months it will feel about right. Events with 10% probability don't happen often - but they do happen. And the most-likely epicenter would be in Ukraine-Poland-Balts. One would think that would cool down the fever, but so far they are chomping at a chance to go all the way like teens at a rumba party.

    This is the war between the US and the RF.
     
    It is, but in a very contemporary way it also isn't: Ukies can be thrown under the bus, and so can the assorted Poles, Latvians, Romanians, etc...US has relatively little skin in this game. That suggests that when things get really hot, it will be Washington that will step back. But maybe not.

    Replies: @Greasy William

  697. @QCIC
    @Leaves No Shadow

    I think this circumstance needs to be reached for an end to the SMO: total exhaustion on the Ukrainian side and weariness on the Russian side.

    My guess is that eventually enough Ukrainians will tire of the pointless destruction and rise up to toss out the Kolomoiski boys. They seem to be slow learners so Western Ukraine may be a bombed-out hell-scape by then.

    Replies: @Leaves No Shadow

    I think it would be extraordinary if the invaded country were exhausted first. Almost without precedence in history.

    • Replies: @AnonfromTN
    @Leaves No Shadow


    I think it would be extraordinary if the invaded country were exhausted first. Almost without precedence in history.
     
    There were numerous successful conquests in human history. Each one of them is an example of the invaded country being exhausted/demoralized first. In fact, there are a lot fewer examples of failed conquests. At least on this planet.

    Replies: @Leaves No Shadow

  698. @Yahya
    @Leaves No Shadow


    Ok, I shouldn’t have understood it as you trying to describe me or analyse my biases whatsoever?
     
    Yes, you understood me wrong. However, it may not be your fault; just the natural misunderstandings which arise from internet interactions.

    As a rule; it’s a good idea not to contradict me on anything. I’m always right and people who gainsay me tend to regret it. The world would work better if only people just listen to me; without arguing back.

    But alas, the world is not perfect.

    Replies: @Leaves No Shadow

    Is this a Middle Eastern form of apology? Or a fancy boarding school one?

    • Replies: @Yahya
    @Leaves No Shadow


    Is this a Middle Eastern form of apology? Or a fancy boarding school one?

     

    It's a joke; meant to break the ice and move on.

    Replies: @A123, @Barbarossa

  699. @Leaves No Shadow
    @QCIC

    I think it would be extraordinary if the invaded country were exhausted first. Almost without precedence in history.

    Replies: @AnonfromTN

    I think it would be extraordinary if the invaded country were exhausted first. Almost without precedence in history.

    There were numerous successful conquests in human history. Each one of them is an example of the invaded country being exhausted/demoralized first. In fact, there are a lot fewer examples of failed conquests. At least on this planet.

    • Replies: @Leaves No Shadow
    @AnonfromTN

    Name a conquest without any decisive victories.

    Replies: @QCIC, @AnonfromTN

  700. @Leaves No Shadow
    @Yahya

    Is this a Middle Eastern form of apology? Or a fancy boarding school one?

    Replies: @Yahya

    Is this a Middle Eastern form of apology? Or a fancy boarding school one?

    It’s a joke; meant to break the ice and move on.

    • Replies: @A123
    @Yahya


    It’s a joke; meant to break the ice and move on.
     
    I thought it was funny.

    I was going copy and adapt that language to myself. However, everyone understands that I define perfection. So, there is no need of such superfluous redundancy.

    🌄 All may bask in my munificent & radiant glory! 🌅

    PEACE 😇
    , @Barbarossa
    @Yahya

    Finally, an update on "War and Peace" by Bondarchuk! We finished the first part tonight (we'll have to do it in pieces since I believe it around 7+ hours long, and it is quite magnificent so far. Even with subtitles it is extremely immersive despite, or perhaps because of, the leisurely pacing. Though to be honest, I never find subtitles any real distraction. My wife is also really enjoying it. Thanks again for recommending it. I passed on the recommendation to a Russian friend of mine who happen to be currently reading War and Peace, so it's all quite apropos.

    I'll give a full reaction once I get done with the entire thing.

    The kids actually enjoyed it, or at least were interested enough to sit through it so far. My 11 year old was the most enthusiastic, exclaiming that "the acting was so good, it's like real life! How do they do that?!" My 14 year old's main take-away was that she's still not sure she knows what is going on, but 14 year olds are already jaded and weary of life to an extent, so I think she must think it's okay. My 3 year old used as an excuse to snuggle but would occasionally parrot random Russian dialog he thought sounded funny. He perked up a bit more for the battles. My 5 year old knowingly proclaimed that it's both a princess movie and a fighting movie (which is technically pretty accurate). My 8 year old proclaimed it "good", without further elaboration. We'll see if they make it through the whole thing, but it's a moderate success so far.



    I passed along my newest of the articles that I write for the local paper via email. If you would like to keep getting them I can keep you on the email list but if you feel that you don't need another damnable bloviator jamming up your inbox with opinions, then feel free to let me know and I'll take you off. No hard feelings at all either way, and I hope I haven't been too presumptuous sending the one out unsolicited.

    Replies: @Yahya

  701. @Beckow
    @LatW

    A thoughtful response, thanks. But you meander and project based on things that are unlikely. I will address some of them:


    Ukies have more fans in the world than ever in their history....
    Russian culture...All of that is going out the window now. The so called Russian world will shrink.
     
    Fandom is a form of fashion - and as we all know, any fashion has an average longevity of around three years. It is as likely that Ukies will be cursed for their intransigence and lowered EU econ. standards. Don't count your chickens before they hatch.

    How is the Russian world shrinking if it has just grown with acquisitions in Ukraine? (Belarus is also quiet and loyal again.) You can't describe something that has just grown as 'shrinking' no matter how much you would like that.


    Washington doesn’t lose either way in this case - unless Ukraine is crushed completely which they won’t be
     
    Really? Ukraine will be crushed - the completeness of it will be in the eye of the beholder. But it will be defeated - those are the odds, that will be a very serious setback for Washington. The very real plans for Nato in Ukraine have already been crushed, another massive defeat for Washington. Now you can sit here and pretend that didn't happen or hallucinate about what will "Nato do with missiles, blabla..." in the future, but that is all way too hypothetical. So far, Nato is out and looks very unlikely to get back to the same position they had a year ago in Ukraine.

    In general, you substitute future possibilities and threats for the current reality on the ground. E,g. Intermarium with Odessa that can be easily blockaded is not much of a mini-empire. Or Lviv with all those Kiev-Kharkiv refugees will still be a poor city shedding more able people to the West - another Kishinev, or if you prefer Sophia. Those are not prosperous places.

    We don't know how the war will go, we only know the disposition of forces. Based on that certain odds can be derived, Kiev has maybe 10-15% chance of succeeding, a nuclear war is about 10-%, but the most likely outcome of 75-80% is Russia winning and dictating the terms of peace. Washington knows this quite well - they would like to prolong the war since it costs them very little.

    My last point: general Pavel is a former commie who studied in Moscow, and "president" of Czechia is a ceremonial position. He was elected because he eludes calm and people want less arguing. But it makes little geo-political difference.

    Replies: @AnonfromTN, @LatW, @AP

    A thoughtful response, thanks.

    Thanks, Beckow, I appreciate your intellect, even if I may not agree with you in all cases. Nobody is happy with the war, it’s probably a once in a 300 years type of nightmare. Definitely a historic development of massive proportions.

    Fandom is a form of fashion – and as we all know, any fashion has an average longevity of around three years.

    True, there is an element of moment in time, it could pass, and support could decline somewhat. What matters is the relationships that were formed that weren’t there previously – the volunteer networks, political communication, consolidation of the West, the changed perceptions.

    It is as likely that Ukies will be cursed for their intransigence and lowered EU econ. standards.

    Of course, there is an economic burden. Why blame only Ukraine for that? Btw, it looks like inflation was bound to happen anyway, there was too much QE. Wouldn’t you at least agree with that? Of course, the war makes it much worse. It’s very unfortunate. Also, even if Ukraine is supported now, with time Ukraine will have to figure out how to start making money again.

    How is the Russian world shrinking if it has just grown with acquisitions in Ukraine?

    The territorial gains, while very real, are still fragile. Further mobilization will be required to hold them down and to create a buffer. They have managed to take some of the population (including by kidnapping children). So I would agree that they do have some considerable gains (but significant losses as well). If we look at the population in the East, it has been reduced. Those who fled West, into Central and Western parts of Ukraine, their children will eventually become Ukrainian speaking. Those who fled into the EU will speak Ukrainian / Russian, and their children will speak host languages as well, and there is a risk of assimilation. They definitely will not be Russian or Russian speaking in the future (on the contrary, they will hold in their memory the idea of Russia as the violator of their lives). Land is good to have but the Russians have squandered a lot of Russophone population. Then again, if this population are Russophone Ukrainians who hate Russians anyway, then it may not be worth it for them, on the contrary, they would want to eliminate them. I heard that the Russians want to set up a large number of concentration camps in East Ukraine. This is actually very significant with the future in mind, since essentially we will be living next door to that (if they succeed). If the French and Germans will ignore that, I won’t speak to them anymore. Think about what this means for human rights.

    [MORE]

    The very real plans for Nato in Ukraine have already been crushed, another massive defeat for Washington.

    We are talking about two different things. NATO as a political organization? Yes, it might be that the eventual membership is still questionable (but I’m not sure if it is entirely out of the question long term). But the de facto situation is that Ukraine has become a full on ally of the West. It is still an unstable situation, of course. But Ukrainians have a considerable amount of control. Of course, I’m not denying that Ukraine’s losses have been immense.

    E,g. Intermarium with Odessa that can be easily blockaded is not much of a mini-empire.

    It is not an ideal situation and it would have to be strengthened, but it is not nothing. It is still quite a large chunk of land and resources.

    Or Lviv with all those Kiev-Kharkiv refugees will still be a poor city shedding more able people to the West – another Kishinev, or if you prefer Sophia. Those are not prosperous places.

    They may be shedding people, but those are generally not small places. Lviv and Kyiv have quite a bit of potential. In my book, they don’t have to be super prosperous (although they could be more prosperous than before), what is important is that they retain the Ukrainian culture. And are amicable to Poland, et al. Which will be the case long term.

    We don’t know how the war will go, we only know the disposition of forces.

    There are some unknowns still, such as the state of the Russian troops who are arriving now, the real state of the Wagner company, the ideas that the Ukrainian General Staff are working on as to the next steps (this is a military secret and one can only model possible scenarios).

    a nuclear war is about 10-%

    I’m not sure it’s that high.

    general Pavel is a former commie who studied in Moscow, and “president” of Czechia is a ceremonial position

    Many wanted to study in Moscow back in those days. It looks like he joined the Communist party in 1985, which is late (not good, of course), but not that late. Things moved very fast back then and 1985 was not 1989. Yes, it’s not great, but one had to join the party to have a career. It looks like he comes from a military family, I don’t see how he could’ve had a military career beyond a certain very low level without joining the party. This is just for career purposes. But I may be wrong. And, no, it is not great, but it’s been over 30 years now.. we need to think about how to leave this all behind (even if we learn lessons from it and remain vigilant).

    As to the ceremonial position, it really depends on how he will carry himself. If he is charismatic with novel ideas, awesome, he could have impact. If he is more mellow and serves a unifying role, then that’s good, too. I don’t know much about him but he has made some reasonable, realistic remarks. There is some realistic language that I like about NATO having become too much of a “political” organization:

    “NATO over the years has become probably too politically correct in our own way that we were circling around the problems without being able to identify true nature. I was facing that situation even in a military committee when I asked my colleagues to come back to the basics and speak as soldiers, not as politicians or diplomats. At least around the table so that we understand each other.”

    • Replies: @S
    @LatW


    Thanks, Beckow, I appreciate your intellect, even if I may not agree with you in all cases. Nobody is happy with the war, it’s probably a once in a 300 years type of nightmare. Definitely a historic development of massive proportions.
     
    An appropriate place to interject as any I suppose, LatW (stands for Latvian Woman from what I understand), and I suspect I represent many of the male posters here in my viewpoint, though I disagree vehemently with your view in regards to the wisdom of the war in Ukraine, I greatly respect your intellect and am quite appreciative of your posts at this site.

    You are a real credit to the Latvian people as a whole and Latvian womanhood in particular. [Nothing you have to respond to naturally, but, with your excellent command of the English language and knowledge of US history and politics, I have to wonder if you had been raised in the United States.]

    Replies: @LatW

    , @Beckow
    @LatW


    ...Nobody is happy with the war, it’s probably a once in a 300 years type of nightmare.
     
    So why is taking place? It is very clear that Ukie national mania (and also others like Poles, Latvians, etc...) and the insane plan to put Nato on Russia's border in Ukraine is the reason. Russian reaction was kind of inevitable, what else they could have done?

    de facto situation is that Ukraine has become a full on ally of the West. It is still an unstable situation
     
    Kiev was a de facto ally for the last 8 years - nothing has changed in that. What has changed is that Nato will be not be in Ukraine 'politically' and will not build bases there or put missiles in Russia's border 2-3 minutes from Moscow. It won't happen now unless Russia is defeated (unlikely) and it was definitely going to happen if Russia did nothing. You will deny it, people will lie about it - but it was the reality. Nato lost Ukraine and there is not much they can do about it.

    Regarding Pavel: he was a commie in military intelligence, so was his father. They fronted the 1968 invasion - Pavel openly admits it and says it was a mistake. The headline in a local paper was: "Has Czechia finally got over its anti-commie sentiment?" Both Babis and Pavel were commies and not small ones - they are who they are because they were commies in the 80's. The difference between their policies is non-existent - nothing will change, Czechs will continue sitting on the fence and occasionally throw rhetorical bombs, mostly at Russia because it is easier. Then they will have a beer and forget about it.

    Replies: @Yevardian, @LatW

  702. Would also like AP and RSDB to review and summarize Pope Benedict’s posthumous book. Am afraid it is in Italian.

    • LOL: RSDB
  703. @AnonfromTN
    @Beckow


    We don’t know how the war will go, we only know the disposition of forces. Based on that certain odds can be derived, Kiev has maybe 10-15% chance of succeeding, a nuclear war is about 10-%, but the most likely outcome of 75-80% is Russia winning and dictating the terms of peace. Washington knows this quite well – they would like to prolong the war since it costs them very little.
     
    This is the war between the US and the RF. While your estimates of probable outcomes in Ukraine are about correct, this war won’t end with Ukraine. Ukraine is not a player, it’s just a disposable pawn used by its masters to achieve their ends. Ukies don’t understand that, but that’s their problem: they are paying for their stupidity with hundreds of lives every day. The luckiest ones become POWs.

    Additional disposable pawns that the empire wouldn’t hesitate to sacrifice for its geostrategic objectives within 1-3 years are Baltic microstates and Poland. Romania, Moldova, and some other Eastern European countries might end up thrown under the bus, too. It’s a bit sad that they will disappear. Then again, they have only themselves to blame.

    My prediction is that the empire will balk when the question of sacrificing Germany arises. Not because it cares about Germans, but because it cares about damage control. If Putin remains at the helm in Russia, the empire is likely to be allowed to keep Germany. Than there won’t be a global war. If by that time someone else is the RF president, all bets are off: considering prevailing public mood in Russia and the direction in which it is changing, anyone who has a chance will be a lot more anti-Western and combative than Putin and other people of his generation (which, broadly speaking, happens to be my generation). I look at the prospect optimistically (Russian style): being dead, we won’t have any problems.

    Replies: @A123, @Greasy William, @LatW, @Beckow

    This is the war between the US and the RF

    I am not sure why this fallacious trope keeps being repeated. It is 100% obviously completely totally wrong.

    The conflict is driven by the European Empire. The U.S. is a puppet flailing around on tangled EU strings with little to no control.

    Ukraine is not a player, it’s just a disposable pawn used by its masters to achieve their ends. Ukies don’t understand that, but that’s their problem

    I concur.

    Ukie Maximalists, such as Zelensky, are pawns for the European WEF administering EU plans for the European Elites.

    Remember the European strategy for Ukraine is a failed state. There are millions of MENA origin migrants on fake identity papers that get to stay if “refugees” cannot return. The European Empire wants to lose.

    Additional disposable pawns that the empire wouldn’t hesitate to sacrifice for its geostrategic objectives within 1-3 years are Baltic microstates and Poland.

    These nations are under the NATO Nuclear umbrella of Article 5. Yes. German Elites would love to expunge them from Europe and the EU, however the risks of such strategy from Berlin seem immense.

    the empire will balk when the question of sacrificing Germany arises. Not because it cares about Germans, but because it cares about damage control.

    The four major powers of the European Axis are Berlin/Paris/Davos/Brussels.

    The bold move for German bankers would be getting rid of Italy. Germany is part of the “in” group with European WEF Elites. There is no chance of sacrificing the Jewel of the European Empire.
    ____

    The most likely key events for Ukraine are:

        • The Kiev regime will run short on cash in Fall
        • Zelensky will escape to the European Empire and retire comfortably
        • The new Ukrainian government will agree to an armistice
        • The final deal line will not move very far from the armistice

    It is in the interest of the European Empire to drag things out. However, the American people are not engaged. Their puppet Not-The-President Biden is losing the ability to deliver cash despite the demands from Davos. There is no chance for expanded support for disengaged America.

        ♦ What ruin will European Elites leave in the Ukrainian West?

        ♦ And, will the CCP ride to the rescue, buying up huge chunks of Ukrainian farm land?

    PEACE 😇

    • Replies: @QCIC
    @A123

    Can you clarify in a brief format why you believe this is a European adventure?

    I agree the US government is pulled by strings from above which also pull the European strings. In this system the job of the US is to be the attack dog and stir up trouble such as Ukraine.

    Replies: @A123

  704. @Yahya
    @Leaves No Shadow


    Is this a Middle Eastern form of apology? Or a fancy boarding school one?

     

    It's a joke; meant to break the ice and move on.

    Replies: @A123, @Barbarossa

    It’s a joke; meant to break the ice and move on.

    I thought it was funny.

    I was going copy and adapt that language to myself. However, everyone understands that I define perfection. So, there is no need of such superfluous redundancy.

    🌄 All may bask in my munificent & radiant glory! 🌅

    PEACE 😇

    • LOL: Yahya
  705. What is the deal with the promotion of eating bugs? Aren’t chickens more efficient at turning feed into protein, especially when you count eggs?

    Are they trying to raise the efficiency of bugs to surpass that of chickens? Or to get ahead of some movement to reject the killing of warm-blooded farm animals?

    Or is it just green grifting?

    • Replies: @S
    @songbird


    What is the deal with the promotion of eating bugs?
     
    I think it's part of the conditioning they are performing to prepare the planned for greatly dumbed down five hundred million human survivors of WWIII for the world the present day elites and hangers on wish for them to inhabit.

    I would add Tyler Durden's speech from 1999's Fight Club to that:

    In the world I see - you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty car pool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

    Along with the recently heard, though with a slight addendum:

    'You will have nothing, and you will work for nothing, and you will be happy.'

    https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/tag/tyler_durden



    As an aside, are you familiar with the actress Julie Newmar by chance, Songbird? Amongst other characters, she played Catwoman in the 1960's Batman series.

    While she was (and still is) certainly physically beautiful, she seemed to have had a beautiful spirit about herself, too, which seemed to really shine through at times. In other words, I don't think she was always simply characterizing, whomever she might be portraying, a truism with many and actor and actress I suppose.

    https://youtu.be/sh_THrPc4uM

    Replies: @songbird

  706. @AnonfromTN
    @Leaves No Shadow


    I think it would be extraordinary if the invaded country were exhausted first. Almost without precedence in history.
     
    There were numerous successful conquests in human history. Each one of them is an example of the invaded country being exhausted/demoralized first. In fact, there are a lot fewer examples of failed conquests. At least on this planet.

    Replies: @Leaves No Shadow

    Name a conquest without any decisive victories.

    • Replies: @QCIC
    @Leaves No Shadow

    Patience.

    , @AnonfromTN
    @Leaves No Shadow


    Name a conquest without any decisive victories.
     
    To be brief: virtually all German conquests (many countries) in Europe in 1939-1941.

    Replies: @Leaves No Shadow

  707. @AnonfromTN
    @Beckow


    We don’t know how the war will go, we only know the disposition of forces. Based on that certain odds can be derived, Kiev has maybe 10-15% chance of succeeding, a nuclear war is about 10-%, but the most likely outcome of 75-80% is Russia winning and dictating the terms of peace. Washington knows this quite well – they would like to prolong the war since it costs them very little.
     
    This is the war between the US and the RF. While your estimates of probable outcomes in Ukraine are about correct, this war won’t end with Ukraine. Ukraine is not a player, it’s just a disposable pawn used by its masters to achieve their ends. Ukies don’t understand that, but that’s their problem: they are paying for their stupidity with hundreds of lives every day. The luckiest ones become POWs.

    Additional disposable pawns that the empire wouldn’t hesitate to sacrifice for its geostrategic objectives within 1-3 years are Baltic microstates and Poland. Romania, Moldova, and some other Eastern European countries might end up thrown under the bus, too. It’s a bit sad that they will disappear. Then again, they have only themselves to blame.

    My prediction is that the empire will balk when the question of sacrificing Germany arises. Not because it cares about Germans, but because it cares about damage control. If Putin remains at the helm in Russia, the empire is likely to be allowed to keep Germany. Than there won’t be a global war. If by that time someone else is the RF president, all bets are off: considering prevailing public mood in Russia and the direction in which it is changing, anyone who has a chance will be a lot more anti-Western and combative than Putin and other people of his generation (which, broadly speaking, happens to be my generation). I look at the prospect optimistically (Russian style): being dead, we won’t have any problems.

    Replies: @A123, @Greasy William, @LatW, @Beckow

    Additional disposable pawns that the empire wouldn’t hesitate to sacrifice for its geostrategic objectives within 1-3 years are Baltic microstates and Poland. Romania, Moldova, and some other Eastern European countries might end up thrown under the bus, too. It’s a bit sad that they will disappear.

    I disagree with all of this. The dwarf states won’t don’t anything and Finland and Poland would both absolutely stomp Russia if it came to war, which it never would as there are no issues between them that could lead to war as there were with Ukraine.

    If the US was serious about winning this war, they would have already done a lot more for Ukraine than they have. Currently the US strategy is just to provide Ukraine with enough material to hold the line but to not give Ukraine enough to make any further territorial gains. It’s not clear why the US has decided on this path but it is clear that this is how they want to play things.

    Tanks are not an escalation as they won’t make any difference. Biden explicitly said today that there aren’t going to be any F-16s. Well, without air superiority there is no way for Ukraine to break through the Russian lines. In fact, based on what we are seeing so far it might not even be possible for Ukraine to hold their current positions without air superiority.

    The RAND corporation article seems to indicate that Washington is looking for a way out. But that doesn’t necessarily mean that Ukraine ceases to exist, what is more likely is a bloody stalemate

    • Replies: @LatW
    @Greasy William


    Biden explicitly said today that there aren’t going to be any F-16s.
     
    There is the Swedish Gripen and there are the old MIGs that are still ok. Some attack helicopters would be nice though. And if the US would not provide F-16 (does that apply to F15 and others though?), then why are they training Ukrainian pilots? Maybe they are training them to keep them for themselves? Doesn't sound that logical.

    Replies: @A123, @Greasy William

    , @AnonfromTN
    @Greasy William


    Finland and Poland would both absolutely stomp Russia if it came to war
     
    Yea, right. A well known parteigenosse with highly recognizable mustaches had similar delusions. We all know how he ended.
  708. @AnonfromTN
    @Beckow


    We don’t know how the war will go, we only know the disposition of forces. Based on that certain odds can be derived, Kiev has maybe 10-15% chance of succeeding, a nuclear war is about 10-%, but the most likely outcome of 75-80% is Russia winning and dictating the terms of peace. Washington knows this quite well – they would like to prolong the war since it costs them very little.
     
    This is the war between the US and the RF. While your estimates of probable outcomes in Ukraine are about correct, this war won’t end with Ukraine. Ukraine is not a player, it’s just a disposable pawn used by its masters to achieve their ends. Ukies don’t understand that, but that’s their problem: they are paying for their stupidity with hundreds of lives every day. The luckiest ones become POWs.

    Additional disposable pawns that the empire wouldn’t hesitate to sacrifice for its geostrategic objectives within 1-3 years are Baltic microstates and Poland. Romania, Moldova, and some other Eastern European countries might end up thrown under the bus, too. It’s a bit sad that they will disappear. Then again, they have only themselves to blame.

    My prediction is that the empire will balk when the question of sacrificing Germany arises. Not because it cares about Germans, but because it cares about damage control. If Putin remains at the helm in Russia, the empire is likely to be allowed to keep Germany. Than there won’t be a global war. If by that time someone else is the RF president, all bets are off: considering prevailing public mood in Russia and the direction in which it is changing, anyone who has a chance will be a lot more anti-Western and combative than Putin and other people of his generation (which, broadly speaking, happens to be my generation). I look at the prospect optimistically (Russian style): being dead, we won’t have any problems.

    Replies: @A123, @Greasy William, @LatW, @Beckow

    Romania, Moldova, and some other Eastern European countries might end up thrown under the bus, too.

    What have Moldova done to you and why are you now picking on Moldova?

    Moldova has been quiet as a tiny mouse, doing nothing to anybody. Leave Moldova alone!

    • Replies: @AnonfromTN
    @LatW


    Moldova has been quiet as a tiny mouse, doing nothing to anybody. Leave Moldova alone!
     
    Personally, I have nothing for or against Moldova. Direct your demands to the puppet masters of Romania (as Moldovan “president” is actually a Romanian citizen).

    Replies: @LatW

  709. @Greasy William
    @AnonfromTN


    Additional disposable pawns that the empire wouldn’t hesitate to sacrifice for its geostrategic objectives within 1-3 years are Baltic microstates and Poland. Romania, Moldova, and some other Eastern European countries might end up thrown under the bus, too. It’s a bit sad that they will disappear.
     
    I disagree with all of this. The dwarf states won't don't anything and Finland and Poland would both absolutely stomp Russia if it came to war, which it never would as there are no issues between them that could lead to war as there were with Ukraine.

    If the US was serious about winning this war, they would have already done a lot more for Ukraine than they have. Currently the US strategy is just to provide Ukraine with enough material to hold the line but to not give Ukraine enough to make any further territorial gains. It's not clear why the US has decided on this path but it is clear that this is how they want to play things.

    Tanks are not an escalation as they won't make any difference. Biden explicitly said today that there aren't going to be any F-16s. Well, without air superiority there is no way for Ukraine to break through the Russian lines. In fact, based on what we are seeing so far it might not even be possible for Ukraine to hold their current positions without air superiority.

    The RAND corporation article seems to indicate that Washington is looking for a way out. But that doesn't necessarily mean that Ukraine ceases to exist, what is more likely is a bloody stalemate

    Replies: @LatW, @AnonfromTN

    Biden explicitly said today that there aren’t going to be any F-16s.

    There is the Swedish Gripen and there are the old MIGs that are still ok. Some attack helicopters would be nice though. And if the US would not provide F-16 (does that apply to F15 and others though?), then why are they training Ukrainian pilots? Maybe they are training them to keep them for themselves? Doesn’t sound that logical.

    • Replies: @A123
    @LatW



    Biden explicitly said today
     
    Doesn’t sound that logical.
     
    Welcome to The American Experience!

     

    Not-The-President Biden occasionally says something accurate. Including today's ramble. However, all listeners grasp that such events are accidental.

    Key observation -- There is no House Appropriation to buy fighters for the Kiev regime. Even if the Veggie-in-Chief changed what little is left his mind, he has no way to fund such a program.

    America has no interest in the Brussels Blunder and will soon walk away from the EU's fiasco.

    PEACE 😇

    Replies: @AnonfromTN

    , @Greasy William
    @LatW


    And if the US would not provide F-16 (does that apply to F15 and others though?), then why are they training Ukrainian pilots?
     
    I wouldn't assume that the US has a clear strategy. The US initially expected Ukraine to fall in weeks at which point the US was going to support an Afghanistan style insurgency. After Ukraine not only held the line but successfully counter attacked, and it became clear that Russia still had no plans of stopping until it had achieved its own objectives, the United States needed to develop a new strategy. The problem is, it didn't.

    The US has essentially been winging it since late spring of last year. Mainly US efforts have just been geared toward keeping Ukraine in the fight with no coherent long term plan whatsoever. It's not clear if this is due to stupidity/incompetence on the part of the US or simply a weariness regarding the potential for escalation. It also could be some combination of the two.

    Replies: @LatW

  710. @Leaves No Shadow
    @AnonfromTN

    Name a conquest without any decisive victories.

    Replies: @QCIC, @AnonfromTN

    Patience.

  711. @A123
    @AnonfromTN


    This is the war between the US and the RF
     
    I am not sure why this fallacious trope keeps being repeated. It is 100% obviously completely totally wrong.

    The conflict is driven by the European Empire. The U.S. is a puppet flailing around on tangled EU strings with little to no control.

    Ukraine is not a player, it’s just a disposable pawn used by its masters to achieve their ends. Ukies don’t understand that, but that’s their problem
     
    I concur.

    Ukie Maximalists, such as Zelensky, are pawns for the European WEF administering EU plans for the European Elites.

    Remember the European strategy for Ukraine is a failed state. There are millions of MENA origin migrants on fake identity papers that get to stay if "refugees" cannot return. The European Empire wants to lose.

    Additional disposable pawns that the empire wouldn’t hesitate to sacrifice for its geostrategic objectives within 1-3 years are Baltic microstates and Poland.
     
    These nations are under the NATO Nuclear umbrella of Article 5. Yes. German Elites would love to expunge them from Europe and the EU, however the risks of such strategy from Berlin seem immense.

    the empire will balk when the question of sacrificing Germany arises. Not because it cares about Germans, but because it cares about damage control.
     
    The four major powers of the European Axis are Berlin/Paris/Davos/Brussels.

    The bold move for German bankers would be getting rid of Italy. Germany is part of the "in" group with European WEF Elites. There is no chance of sacrificing the Jewel of the European Empire.
    ____

    The most likely key events for Ukraine are:

        • The Kiev regime will run short on cash in Fall
        • Zelensky will escape to the European Empire and retire comfortably
        • The new Ukrainian government will agree to an armistice
        • The final deal line will not move very far from the armistice

    It is in the interest of the European Empire to drag things out. However, the American people are not engaged. Their puppet Not-The-President Biden is losing the ability to deliver cash despite the demands from Davos. There is no chance for expanded support for disengaged America.

        ♦ What ruin will European Elites leave in the Ukrainian West?

        ♦ And, will the CCP ride to the rescue, buying up huge chunks of Ukrainian farm land?

    PEACE 😇

    Replies: @QCIC

    Can you clarify in a brief format why you believe this is a European adventure?

    I agree the US government is pulled by strings from above which also pull the European strings. In this system the job of the US is to be the attack dog and stir up trouble such as Ukraine.

    • Replies: @A123
    @QCIC


    Can you clarify in a brief format why you believe this is a European adventure?
     
    The most obvious driver is MOTIVE. That further ties out to EU actions.
    ___

    What could American possibly get out of such a conflict?

    Go back over a decade and possibly Obama was running something less savory, but that does not explain the folly of 2022. Trump tried to minimize the friction during his 1st term. And, the majority of Americans cannot even find Ukraine on a globe.

    Look at all of the drum beating GW had as a presage to Iraq. There was little (possibly none) of that with Ukraine. Not-The-President Biden spent over a year hiding in his basement.
    ___

    What could the EU get out of such a conflict?

    Remember, European Elites hate Judeo-Christian faiths. It interferes with their SJW Muslim Globalist dogma. Tricking Christian Russians and Christian Ukrainians into killing each other is immediately a double win.

    Putting large numbers of Christian refugees on the move created all sorts of problems in countries they do not like such as Poland and Hungary. Another win.

    What else do European leaders want? They wish to maximize the number of Muslim Rape-ugees to drive their Great Replacement. All the attention on Mediterranean "rescue" vessels was trimming flows. Every party in the Scholz Traffic Light coalition wants vast numbers of Muslim migrants immediately.

    Presto! MENA origin, Muslim migrants on obviously forged Ukrainian documents immediately obtain full benefits. The EU even changed rules so "Ukrainian refugees" did not have to enter from Ukraine. Yet more winning.

    And, the pièce de résistance... Militarily "losing" in Ukraine enables EU Elites to keep the maximum number of Rape-ugees. Their ideal end state is leaving enough standing to encourage Christians to voluntarily repatriate. Simultaneously, to make it unappealing enough they can mute calls for involuntary returns. Yet more winning.
    ___

    The European WEF wins by losing Ukraine.

    Sad, but one has to appreciate the masterful strategy. Many still think it is a war between Ukraine and Russia. It is actually a war against Christianity (both Ukraine and Russia). European, often German, elites are not even being called on it. The distraction job is artful. Tragic. But definitely artful.
    ____

    I know you want to resist this concept. Try this as a thought experiment. What would you do to:

    • LOSE a conflict?
    • WIN a conflict?

    Compare that to what is happening in Ukraine. Mistakes happen in war, but the preponderance of selections from by Europe and the Kiev regime are overwhelmingly from the lose column.

    If the majority of freely made choices are from the LOSE side of the ledger, does that not imply that losing is part of the strategy?

    PEACE 😇

    Replies: @QCIC

  712. @LatW
    @Greasy William


    Biden explicitly said today that there aren’t going to be any F-16s.
     
    There is the Swedish Gripen and there are the old MIGs that are still ok. Some attack helicopters would be nice though. And if the US would not provide F-16 (does that apply to F15 and others though?), then why are they training Ukrainian pilots? Maybe they are training them to keep them for themselves? Doesn't sound that logical.

    Replies: @A123, @Greasy William

    Biden explicitly said today

    Doesn’t sound that logical.

    Welcome to The American Experience!

    Not-The-President Biden occasionally says something accurate. Including today’s ramble. However, all listeners grasp that such events are accidental.

    Key observation — There is no House Appropriation to buy fighters for the Kiev regime. Even if the Veggie-in-Chief changed what little is left his mind, he has no way to fund such a program.

    America has no interest in the Brussels Blunder and will soon walk away from the EU’s fiasco.

    PEACE 😇

    • Replies: @AnonfromTN
    @A123


    Even if the Veggie-in-Chief changed what little is left his mind, he has no way to fund such a program.
     
    Who cares what the Alzheimer-in-Chief thinks (always assuming that this personage is capable of the process)? The same cabal that installed this half-corpse in the White House is controlling the policy of the US, EU, UK, Japan, and lesser fish, from Australia to Republic of Palau.
  713. @LatW
    @AnonfromTN


    Romania, Moldova, and some other Eastern European countries might end up thrown under the bus, too.
     
    What have Moldova done to you and why are you now picking on Moldova?

    Moldova has been quiet as a tiny mouse, doing nothing to anybody. Leave Moldova alone!

    Replies: @AnonfromTN

    Moldova has been quiet as a tiny mouse, doing nothing to anybody. Leave Moldova alone!

    Personally, I have nothing for or against Moldova. Direct your demands to the puppet masters of Romania (as Moldovan “president” is actually a Romanian citizen).

    • Replies: @LatW
    @AnonfromTN


    Personally, I have nothing for or against Moldova. Direct your demands to the puppet masters of Romania (as Moldovan “president” is actually a Romanian citizen).
     
    They are relatives. Why are you picking on Romania now? You bomb places like Lviv region and Odessa and then you expect Romania to be calm and content about it?

    Moldova didn't do anything to you. You need to forget about Moldova and leave them alone.

    Replies: @Dmitry

  714. @Leaves No Shadow
    @AnonfromTN

    Name a conquest without any decisive victories.

    Replies: @QCIC, @AnonfromTN

    Name a conquest without any decisive victories.

    To be brief: virtually all German conquests (many countries) in Europe in 1939-1941.

    • Replies: @Leaves No Shadow
    @AnonfromTN

    Lol you know nothing.

  715. @LatW
    @Greasy William


    Biden explicitly said today that there aren’t going to be any F-16s.
     
    There is the Swedish Gripen and there are the old MIGs that are still ok. Some attack helicopters would be nice though. And if the US would not provide F-16 (does that apply to F15 and others though?), then why are they training Ukrainian pilots? Maybe they are training them to keep them for themselves? Doesn't sound that logical.

    Replies: @A123, @Greasy William

    And if the US would not provide F-16 (does that apply to F15 and others though?), then why are they training Ukrainian pilots?

    I wouldn’t assume that the US has a clear strategy. The US initially expected Ukraine to fall in weeks at which point the US was going to support an Afghanistan style insurgency. After Ukraine not only held the line but successfully counter attacked, and it became clear that Russia still had no plans of stopping until it had achieved its own objectives, the United States needed to develop a new strategy. The problem is, it didn’t.

    The US has essentially been winging it since late spring of last year. Mainly US efforts have just been geared toward keeping Ukraine in the fight with no coherent long term plan whatsoever. It’s not clear if this is due to stupidity/incompetence on the part of the US or simply a weariness regarding the potential for escalation. It also could be some combination of the two.

    • Replies: @LatW
    @Greasy William


    The US has essentially been winging it since late spring of last year. Mainly US efforts have just been geared toward keeping Ukraine in the fight with no coherent long term plan whatsoever. It’s not clear if this is due to stupidity/incompetence on the part of the US or simply a weariness regarding the potential for escalation. It also could be some combination of the two.
     
    That's probably the case, but I wouldn't be so hard on the US. It's a very complicated situation. It is exactly right that they had to adopt a new strategy on the go a few months ago. They may not be sure what to do with the new situation if a new security situation arises out of this. Also, there are different ideas about the approach and even what looks like different ideological streams within the administration (some are hawks like the Secretary of Defense and Secretary of State, while others are more lenient such as Sullivan who seems to be more like Kerry). Nobody was fully prepared and this is all ad hoc and kind of on the go.

    It has been slow but help is coming along.

    Both Poland and the Netherlands have signaled that they would agree to provide F16s. There is pressure from the German public, too. So they will be unblocking this issue at NATO and discussing it at length. Why would they provide the Leopards without air support?

    Replies: @Greasy William

  716. @Beckow
    @AP


    ...for a foreign country to determine...
     
    Based on your list there are no independent countries in Europe, they all fall under one of your tendentious description of foreign meddling and mischief. Germany is definitely not independent (it has been de-Nazified and occupied). And remember EU has a 'minority rights' policy, is that also meddling? You are a moron who repeats nonsense slogans without thinking through what they mean, what is the context.

    Lviv is on its way to become the next Kishinev. Substitute Poland for Romania and Transnistria for the contested border in the middle of Ukraine and you are there. Enjoy, Moldova can be quite a treat :)...

    Replies: @AP

    Based on your list there are no independent countries in Europe, they all fall under one of your tendentious description of foreign meddling and mischief.

    Nonsense.

    Germany is definitely not independent (it has been de-Nazified and occupied).

    Germany was indeed occupied. If Germany wanted to legalize the Nazi party today, nobody would stop it. But Germans themselves don’t want to do it, it’s too embarrassing so they prefer a sly and milder version like Afd.

    So when Russia demanded to decide what Ukrainian political parties would be allowed it demanded to treat Ukraine as an occupied country, like Germany right after World War II.

    And remember EU has a ‘minority rights’ policy, is that also meddling?

    It isn’t, because each EU country has the policy it wants. For example, France and the Baltic Republics don’t want these minority language policies, so they don’t have them. The others do want them, so they have them.

    Russia demanded to decide Ukraine’s internal language policy. It demanded to limit Ukraine’s independence.

    You forgot to mention Russia’s other demands:

    Russia demanded that Russia got to decide the size of Ukraine’s army and what kind of weapons Ukraine’s army would be allowed to have.

    Russia demanded that Russia got to decide what alliances Ukraine would be allowed to join.

    Russia demanded that Russian-inhabited regions with ties to Russia would have special powers and be allowed to veto national policy. In other words, Russia demanded the power to shape Ukraine’s constitution and the very organization of the Ukrainian state.

    In summary: Russia demanded that Ukraine surrender its independence.

    And you, as usual, dishonestly claim it wasn’t so.

    The Ukrainian people did not want to surrender their independence, so they chose to fight.

    Lviv is on its way to become the next Kishinev

    Sour grapes. It’s too educated, too nice, too technologically modern, too close to Poland, and unlike Moldova which is 35% or so Russophile it is fully anti-Russian. Next Vilnius at least.

    • Agree: Leaves No Shadow
    • Replies: @AnonfromTN
    @AP


    The Ukrainian people did not want to surrender their independence, so they chose to fight.
     
    If the Ukrainian people “chose to fight”, why did the regime have to resort to forced mobilization, catching males in the streets, shops, churches, and even at the funeral procession of one already mobilized and sent straight to Bandera by the Russian army? Why are “mobilized” sent to the army training camps w/o letting them even to visit their homes? Why do Ukrainian males dress in women’s clothes to go shopping for groceries if they “chose to fight”? Looks like those who “chose to fight” and their conscription-age children actually do not fight. The regime forcibly mobilizes those who did not make this choice and sends them to their death.

    Replies: @Mikel, @AP, @Beckow, @Wokechoke

  717. @Greasy William
    @AnonfromTN


    Additional disposable pawns that the empire wouldn’t hesitate to sacrifice for its geostrategic objectives within 1-3 years are Baltic microstates and Poland. Romania, Moldova, and some other Eastern European countries might end up thrown under the bus, too. It’s a bit sad that they will disappear.
     
    I disagree with all of this. The dwarf states won't don't anything and Finland and Poland would both absolutely stomp Russia if it came to war, which it never would as there are no issues between them that could lead to war as there were with Ukraine.

    If the US was serious about winning this war, they would have already done a lot more for Ukraine than they have. Currently the US strategy is just to provide Ukraine with enough material to hold the line but to not give Ukraine enough to make any further territorial gains. It's not clear why the US has decided on this path but it is clear that this is how they want to play things.

    Tanks are not an escalation as they won't make any difference. Biden explicitly said today that there aren't going to be any F-16s. Well, without air superiority there is no way for Ukraine to break through the Russian lines. In fact, based on what we are seeing so far it might not even be possible for Ukraine to hold their current positions without air superiority.

    The RAND corporation article seems to indicate that Washington is looking for a way out. But that doesn't necessarily mean that Ukraine ceases to exist, what is more likely is a bloody stalemate

    Replies: @LatW, @AnonfromTN

    Finland and Poland would both absolutely stomp Russia if it came to war

    Yea, right. A well known parteigenosse with highly recognizable mustaches had similar delusions. We all know how he ended.

  718. Yea, right. A well known parteigenosse with highly recognizable mustaches had similar delusions. We all know how he ended.

    Because he invaded Russia and made it clear he literally intended to physically exterminate the population. And Russia was not at a technological disadvantage in that war. Poland and Finland fighting a defensive war with superior technology in addition to superior command and control would make short work of what would be sure to be an unmotivated and poorly led Russian invasion force.

    Russia scored a great victory in WWII but Russia has also badly lost many offensive wars in its history

    • Agree: AP
    • LOL: AnonfromTN
  719. @Beckow
    @LatW

    A thoughtful response, thanks. But you meander and project based on things that are unlikely. I will address some of them:


    Ukies have more fans in the world than ever in their history....
    Russian culture...All of that is going out the window now. The so called Russian world will shrink.
     
    Fandom is a form of fashion - and as we all know, any fashion has an average longevity of around three years. It is as likely that Ukies will be cursed for their intransigence and lowered EU econ. standards. Don't count your chickens before they hatch.

    How is the Russian world shrinking if it has just grown with acquisitions in Ukraine? (Belarus is also quiet and loyal again.) You can't describe something that has just grown as 'shrinking' no matter how much you would like that.


    Washington doesn’t lose either way in this case - unless Ukraine is crushed completely which they won’t be
     
    Really? Ukraine will be crushed - the completeness of it will be in the eye of the beholder. But it will be defeated - those are the odds, that will be a very serious setback for Washington. The very real plans for Nato in Ukraine have already been crushed, another massive defeat for Washington. Now you can sit here and pretend that didn't happen or hallucinate about what will "Nato do with missiles, blabla..." in the future, but that is all way too hypothetical. So far, Nato is out and looks very unlikely to get back to the same position they had a year ago in Ukraine.

    In general, you substitute future possibilities and threats for the current reality on the ground. E,g. Intermarium with Odessa that can be easily blockaded is not much of a mini-empire. Or Lviv with all those Kiev-Kharkiv refugees will still be a poor city shedding more able people to the West - another Kishinev, or if you prefer Sophia. Those are not prosperous places.

    We don't know how the war will go, we only know the disposition of forces. Based on that certain odds can be derived, Kiev has maybe 10-15% chance of succeeding, a nuclear war is about 10-%, but the most likely outcome of 75-80% is Russia winning and dictating the terms of peace. Washington knows this quite well - they would like to prolong the war since it costs them very little.

    My last point: general Pavel is a former commie who studied in Moscow, and "president" of Czechia is a ceremonial position. He was elected because he eludes calm and people want less arguing. But it makes little geo-political difference.

    Replies: @AnonfromTN, @LatW, @AP

    Or Lviv with all those Kiev-Kharkiv refugees will still be a poor city shedding more able people to the West

    Lviv is beautiful and large enough, and close enough to western Europe, to retain and attract people. The ones who leave will be replaced and then some by people from Kiev and Kharkiv. New neighborhoods are being built to house them, the city is growing and expanding. The city has already gained 150,000 people and entire companies have relocated from Kharkiv and are still operating in Lviv.

    https://www.lemonde.fr/en/international/article/2022/07/04/lviv-city-of-refuge-for-ukrainian-companies-fleeing-the-war_5988919_4.html

    https://www.ukrinform.net/rubric-economy/3577782-over-200-businesses-relocated-to-lviv-region-most-of-them-already-working-tymoshenko.html

    Over 200 Ukrainian businesses have relocated to the Lviv region as part of the business relocation program, and 144 of them are already working.

    [MORE]

    https://www.weareukraine.info/the-war-turned-lviv-into-the-largest-it-hub-in-ukraine-as-mass-relocation-has-caused-40-million-losses-for-the-industry/

    The war turned Lviv into the largest IT hub in Ukraine as mass relocation has caused $40 million losses for the industry

    “Lviv and the region has become the main relocation destination for Ukrainian technology companies. Before the war, the city was the third IT center of Ukraine after Kyiv and Kharkiv, with around 30,000 IT specialists. Now Lviv has become its IT capital.

    According to Lviv IT Cluster’s estimates, Ukrainian IT companies have spent at least $30-40 million on moving to Lviv alone. Companies were relocating also to cities of Uzhhorod and Ivano-Frankivsk.

    Meanwhile, IT has been of the few industries that has successfully stayed afloat in the wartime economy. As of the beginning of March, 98% of the IT companies were still in business, about 42% had the same workload, and one in fifteen received even more orders.”

  720. @AnonfromTN
    @Leaves No Shadow


    Name a conquest without any decisive victories.
     
    To be brief: virtually all German conquests (many countries) in Europe in 1939-1941.

    Replies: @Leaves No Shadow

    Lol you know nothing.

  721. @Dmitry
    @AP


    Christian society that is largely based on Christian values and thus is very different from the one that Jesus rebelled against (or separated Himself from).

    Given the radical difference
     

    There is the theory of Nietzsche - "Anti-Christ".

    Given the radical difference, the approach must also be different.

     

    Theory of Nietzsche, to justify not following the New Testament, but giving label to these views ("different approach to New Testament") as related to New Testament. It's creative. But I'm not sure it is accurate use of the label. Catholic Church tries to follow New Testament, although with significantly moderated interpretation (they try to often use the least strict interpretation or most adjusted interpretation of the New Testament, but it still has to be based in the New Testament).

    such people I used a utilitarian-social argument. That the people who give to birth to such kids also tend to have large families, and that the kids are sweethearts who elicit compassion and good from their families, so that overall their existence is good for society.
     
    Your comments have been like this for many years.For example, you write like this to me al It's how you know "this is a post by AP".

    Which is ok. It's idiosyncratic and conventionally what the people say is "amoral", as it is against the conventional taboos in the post-Christianized society.

    If I talked like this to ordinary people e.g. my colleagues, I'm pretty sure they would consider me a bit psycho. But probably they are not open minded. Certainly it's interesting to talk to people with such more utilitarian way of looking at the world and adds an important and valuable position in the forum.


    You are repeating Kant’s ethics, right?

     

    This is a view in more sophisticated parts of the Bible, in Greek tragedy, in most everyone's conventional view as well.

    Unfortunately, I haven't looked at Kant's views carefully, just a superficial knowledge. But his writing is course one of the main modern basis for humanism.


    . You will say that people in a society in which few people harm others because doing it is socially unacceptable, are no better than cruel people who live in a society that celebrates cruelty, because the former merely follow social convention.
     
    I didn't write this and I'm not sure you understand these concepts "moral nihilism". Moral nihilism would imply that cruel behavior was morally acceptable, because of the context of the cruel society.

    In contrast to moral nihilism, I think we can agree, something can be allowed conventionally, but not morally. For example, killing disabled people, can be legally acceptable in 1930s Germany and USSR, but I doubt we would believe this is morally allowed. It was morally not acceptable, but legally acceptable.


    truly moral people are more likely to exist in a society that is very depraved and that insist upon depravity for its members because in such a society doing the right thing has negative consequences rather than rewards
     
    That doesn't make sense. Morality is based on compassion, selfless, behavior etc (this is also as said by the Catholic Church in their website). If the society is oppressing people like this, then their visibility is reduced. But the possibility for heroes can increase in some examples. For example, in a normal society, Sophie Scholl might have been a normal school student.

    However, in Christianity also has this view of specifically focusing on the people who have negative consequences for their action, often because of society. It's the history not only of the early martyrs, but most of the later saints. You know many saints who accept being viewed as rapists, humiliated, become beggars, rejected by their monastery, to do right action
    https://www.maronite-institute.org/MARI/JMS/january00/Saint_Marina_the_Monk.htm


    assume the worst of people who do the right thing because they are guided by the teaching of the Church. That someone who will not harm someone else because they

     

    Where did I write something that implies "people do the right thing because they are guided by the teaching of the Church".

    It's exactly moral people would do the right thing, while not doing it with hope of reward in the after life.

    For example, affirmative action in American universities, is controversial, partly because it could be viewed to reduce the status of the African American students.

    If an African American student, is from Harvard University. There is possibility they have attained for their academic ability, or because of affirmative action.

    There is a similar problem when the God-fearing people are giving to help the poor. Is it because they really feel compassion, or is it because they hope to be rewarded. This doesn't mean they are only acting for selfish motives. Just as the African American student doesn't necessarily only enter the university for affirmative action. But it adds the layer of information obscurity.

    In the 20th century's Catholic church teaching, the important determination, is if the person has love or hate in their soul, which is not something visible from external behavior. This is again the same as in Iron Age texts like "Book of Job", where the interest of God is to see the interior quality of the person.

    Replies: @AP

    Theory of Nietzsche, to justify not following the New Testament,

    Translation: not following the personal interpretation of the New Testament by the atheist Dmitry.

    Catholic Church tries to follow New Testament, although with significantly moderated interpretation

    Are you going to claim that you know how better interpret the New Testament than the very Church that created it?

    Morality is based on compassion, selfless, behavior etc (this is also as said by the Catholic Church in their website).

    Correct. And a beautiful thing about Christendom is that it makes compassion socially acceptable and cruelty unacceptable, and it organizes society such that people are usually treated well and nicely. In a primitive pre-Christian society I may be lauded for my strength and cunning if I lead a band and ambush and kill the neighbors, take their land and women (the violent death rate of such societies both historically and in pockets where they remain such as in the Amazon is about 30%). Here I would be condemned, imprisoned and my family would be embarrassed of me. Does this mean that the compassionate people in Christendom have difficulty being really moral because in this society they benefit from being compassionate and just and are punished if they are not compassionate?

    There is a similar problem when the God-fearing people are giving to help the poor. Is it because they really feel compassion, or is it because they hope to be rewarded.

    Why the “or?” Why can’t it be both? It is common in our society for people to both want to do the moral thing and to enjoy the rewards of doing so. Or to have first done the good thing because of reward, and then internalized doing the right thing and subsequently doing it for its own sake (say, in the case of raising children to be nice adults). It is a beauty of the Christian society that both coexist in it. Such a society ought to celebrated and strengthened and not falsely equalized to the wicked one of the past, condemned and undermined.

    In the 20th century’s Catholic church teaching, the important determination, is if the person has love or hate in their soul,

    Yes, the consequences of having a hate-filled soul are dire. They are spelled out repeatedly.

    which is not something visible from external behavior

    Not visible but can be inferred, though not always.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @AP


    Translation: not following the personal interpretation of the New Testament by the atheist Dmitry.

     

    You use the theory of Nietzsche's "Anti-Christ", to justify saying the opposite of the New Testament, is "Christianity". At least, it's creative to see, but I feel like you were just copying parts from my posts.

    So now you are promoting the anti-Christian values, but when I point that to you they are anti-Christian, you justified it by saying "we are now in a Christian society so the values should be different than in New Testament" You said it in your last post to me. https://www.unz.com/akarlin/open-thread-207/#comment-5784335

    It's like watching someone eat chocolate and saying "I'm not eating chocolate". Then they start eating chocolate again. Better accept when you are eating chocolate.


    personal interpretation of the New Testament by the atheist Dmitry.
     
    Who said anything about personal interpretation of the New Testament?

    Every time you start talking about "personal interpretation" against Church interpretation, and you say the other person is using "personal interpretation". This isn't to accept Catholic interpretation is better than personal interpretation.

    But the boring thing, I am writing the Catholic Church interpretation. You don't seem to know Catholic interpretation, you are not interested in learning, and reject when it is posted. It's a waste of time to write with someone who has no interest in a topic, but has "unusual" ways of defending their pride. I would prefer to talk to someone with some knowledge of Catholic interpretation, rather than someone who is fully unknowledgeable. You don't know such basic things like eschatology.

    I already posted from the Catechism of the Catholic Church enough times that everyone here is bored from my posts. From your posts, it seem you are resistant to it, which is fine. But why incorrectly label your views which are so different than the text.


    atheist Dmitry
     
    Where is this new label from?

    Does this mean that the compassionate people in Christendom have difficulty being really moral because in this society they benefit from being
     
    You need to read the post https://www.unz.com/akarlin/open-thread-207/#comment-5784878 again.

    "If the society is oppressing people like this, then their visibility is reduced. But the possibility for heroes can increase in some examples. "


    Not visible but can be inferred, though not always.

     

    You cut the part of the quote where it says something you don't like - "which is not something visible from external behavior. This is again the same as in Iron Age texts like “Book of Job”, where the interest of God is to see the interior quality of the person." And that's a large part of the teaching, where in church interpretation or not.

    But it would be difficult to match with the - "I am better than that person, I am better than another person", "This person is bad, while I am good".

    Replies: @AP

  722. @songbird
    @S


    An odd book for the time I suppose.
     
    Indeed, and he wrote more than one, since he was an odd guy.

    In 1975, he published a book, where a guy from Titan travels to Earth. Specifically at one point, USA, and he receives a compliment because he is a darker black, than everyone else (i.e., the entire population, just about), who are only moderately black, due to racial mixing. The reason, IIRC, he is a darker black is because he is a clone of his father who was a clone of his grandfather, an important pioneer and genius businessman on Titan, who could not reproduce sexually. He goes to Earth to get a clone of himself, and instead (I would say very creepily, due to some subtext and also Clarke's backstory) returns with a clone child of his dead best friend to raise.

    Can't help but think how much its themes seem to reflect or to have predicted the modern regime. And I think part of this convergence is due to the increasing influence of homosexuals.

    And the invading ‘aliens’, who hid their physical appearance, in reality had the classical image of a dragon winged Satan.
     
    This was a funny part of it. On a certain level, he was obviously trying to subvert appearances. (The evil-looking aliens were not really evil) But he was smart enough to understand that this was too ham-fisted. So, at one point, he had a character ask whether the aliens had imprinted themselves into human instincts through some negative experience in prehistoric times - i.e. a negative racial memory. But, then the alien answers that it was instead a racial premonition - that the events of the future, following their arrival, somehow worked their way back in time, to form a negative instinct in the human brain.

    Replies: @S

    In 1975, he published a book, where a guy from Titan travels to Earth. Specifically at one point, USA, and he receives a compliment because he is a darker black, than everyone else (i.e., the entire population, just about), who are only moderately black, due to racial mixing.

    Yes, Clarke, a presumed so called ‘progressive’, as with a great many of that unfortunately very influential ilk within the Anglosphere, seems to share their perverse/sick fetish and obsession for the crude breeding out of existence (ie genocide in the truest sense of that often much abused term) of White European peoples with Sub-Saharan Africans, to create a new slave man to repopulate the Earth with, having the highly desired characteristics from the elite’s vantage of being ‘more mixed’, ‘more docile’, and ‘which can submit to a master’, as the London Times once described him as being.

    [MORE]

    I believe this fetish was inherited from the progs slave dealing/owning political and spiritual forebears in places such as New England and in the slave dealing centers of England, where they brutally directed the Trans-Atlantic slave trade from.

    George Lucas in his 1970 movie THX-1138 also would seem to be infected with this same sick Sub-Saharan fetish.

    Mind you, none of this is about them actually really and truly caring about ‘Blacks’, and it’s certainly not about them caring about Euros, it’s all about their narcissistic selves and their faux ‘virtue signaling’ which they engage in.

    On a certain level, he was obviously trying to subvert appearances. (The evil-looking aliens were not really evil) …But, then the alien answers that it was instead a racial premonition – that the events of the future, following their arrival, somehow worked their way back in time, to form a negative instinct in the human brain.

    In hindsight this does make me wonder a bit about Clarke and any involvement he may have had with the occult.

    As you are probably aware, there is a belief amongst at least some Christians that the alien contact phenomena is in reality a demonic affair, and that amongst ‘the contactees’, there is quite a bit of overlap with them also being occult practitioners.

    While I believe there is almost certainly other life out there, whether there has been actual alien contact is quite another matter. Taking the context of the present times into account, there are without doubt people who would fake alien contact/invasion to further their own political ends and lusts for power.

    The technology is available to do such a thing, or, at least attempt to.

  723. @QCIC
    @A123

    Can you clarify in a brief format why you believe this is a European adventure?

    I agree the US government is pulled by strings from above which also pull the European strings. In this system the job of the US is to be the attack dog and stir up trouble such as Ukraine.

    Replies: @A123

    Can you clarify in a brief format why you believe this is a European adventure?

    The most obvious driver is MOTIVE. That further ties out to EU actions.
    ___

    What could American possibly get out of such a conflict?

    Go back over a decade and possibly Obama was running something less savory, but that does not explain the folly of 2022. Trump tried to minimize the friction during his 1st term. And, the majority of Americans cannot even find Ukraine on a globe.

    Look at all of the drum beating GW had as a presage to Iraq. There was little (possibly none) of that with Ukraine. Not-The-President Biden spent over a year hiding in his basement.
    ___

    What could the EU get out of such a conflict?

    Remember, European Elites hate Judeo-Christian faiths. It interferes with their SJW Muslim Globalist dogma. Tricking Christian Russians and Christian Ukrainians into killing each other is immediately a double win.

    Putting large numbers of Christian refugees on the move created all sorts of problems in countries they do not like such as Poland and Hungary. Another win.

    What else do European leaders want? They wish to maximize the number of Muslim Rape-ugees to drive their Great Replacement. All the attention on Mediterranean “rescue” vessels was trimming flows. Every party in the Scholz Traffic Light coalition wants vast numbers of Muslim migrants immediately.

    Presto! MENA origin, Muslim migrants on obviously forged Ukrainian documents immediately obtain full benefits. The EU even changed rules so “Ukrainian refugees” did not have to enter from Ukraine. Yet more winning.

    And, the pièce de résistance… Militarily “losing” in Ukraine enables EU Elites to keep the maximum number of Rape-ugees. Their ideal end state is leaving enough standing to encourage Christians to voluntarily repatriate. Simultaneously, to make it unappealing enough they can mute calls for involuntary returns. Yet more winning.
    ___

    The European WEF wins by losing Ukraine.

    Sad, but one has to appreciate the masterful strategy. Many still think it is a war between Ukraine and Russia. It is actually a war against Christianity (both Ukraine and Russia). European, often German, elites are not even being called on it. The distraction job is artful. Tragic. But definitely artful.
    ____

    I know you want to resist this concept. Try this as a thought experiment. What would you do to:

    • LOSE a conflict?
    • WIN a conflict?

    Compare that to what is happening in Ukraine. Mistakes happen in war, but the preponderance of selections from by Europe and the Kiev regime are overwhelmingly from the lose column.

    If the majority of freely made choices are from the LOSE side of the ledger, does that not imply that losing is part of the strategy?

    PEACE 😇

    • Replies: @QCIC
    @A123

    OK.

    I agree these issues are important and are definitely and intentionally being used to undermine Christian+Enlightenment values in Europe. I don't think they are central to the Ukrainian mess.

    They might be central to the Syrian mess.

    Replies: @A123

  724. @Yevardian
    @Dmitry


    I would have to disagree a lot. Irish people have very high ratio of extroverted people, for whatever reason. They also have the high agreeableness (unlike e.g. France). This doesn’t mean they are more sweet.

    Extroverts are often more cynical and manipulative, compared to introverts. You know the higher executives in companies, usually seem very extroverted – they live to talk to you, it’s not necessarily because they care about you.
     

    I've noticed cultural differences in this regard a lot since I was child. Especially since I have relatives (relatively evenly split by maternal or fraternal ones) or friends whose parents came from either the Middle-East (generally extroverted) or the former USSR (generally introverted), respectively.

    It can amusing to see social interactions from people from these two regions, as they're both more on the extreme side of the extroversion/introversion spectrum (Anglos or West Euros would be more towards the middle).
    I'd say Arabs and Jews/Israelis are still relatively much more extroverted still than Turks, Caucasians and Iranians, I wonder if Talha has anything much to say about it.
    The cynicism and manipulativeness of hyper-extroverted people certainly rings true as well, I've grown to distrust very extroverted people over the years, after you realise that such people can easily pour out their life story to people they hardly know, it's not a sign of 'sincerity', just emotional incontinence.


    In the past, AP was usually focusing more on the happy/optimistic side of his values. After February, you can see he includes more of the dark/gloomy side, probably because the world events. This is interesting, because there is such dark and light side in any of the values, but the dark and light side will be in different areas. There are some of the side of viewing the morality in terms of self-interest, social utility, which feels less easy to accept.
     
    On this gossipy note, it has been curious to watch your recent evolution from a poster akin to a much nicer version of ThuleanFriend to one approaching a more rationalist version of AaronB.

    Replies: @HeavilyMarbledSteak, @Dmitry

    Middle-East (generally extroverted) or the former USSR (generally introverted)

    It feels more like a model if you add another variable like “agreeableness”. So, for some of the extreme examples of the national cultural differences, if you used those two, it could look more plausible.

    Russians – high introverted, low agreeableness
    Japanese – high introverted, high agreeableness
    Irish – high extroverted, high agreeableness
    Arabs – high extroverted, low agreeableness

    extroverted people over the years, after you realise that such people can easily pour out their life story to people they hardly know, it’s not a sign of ‘sincerity’, just emotional incontinence.

    Well, often “emotional competence”. But it’s like “management tricks”.

    your recent evolution from a poster akin to a much nicer version of ThuleanFriend to

    There is no “evolution”. I just felt motivated to reply when someone is writing something unhealthy one-sided, to the other-side.

    AP was flooding with more materialist, depressing posts, to try to promote himself above other people (probably to boost his mood), so my posts try to push him a bit in the other direction, hoping he might read religious books (which I can see he doesn’t know). But AaronB is always floating in the clouds, so I try write a reply from the ground (he probably should be reading less religious books).

    The negative side, is I never write my own view in the forum, but I’m always matching to the other’s person of view. It’s like my activity is to adjust the flavor of another’s soup, but then my replies are not what I would write if it was my own point of view.

    ThuleanFriend

    Thulean was a good user. For the unromantic topics, where the reality is cynical, we need more materialist, anti-romantic, anti-religious conversation. If the post is about postsoviet politics, then even if you were trying to be cynical, you will be a hundred times less cynical than the postsoviet reality. And even if we talk about politics of developed countries, it’s still a topic which is reduced to unromantic things.

  725. @Greasy William
    @LatW


    And if the US would not provide F-16 (does that apply to F15 and others though?), then why are they training Ukrainian pilots?
     
    I wouldn't assume that the US has a clear strategy. The US initially expected Ukraine to fall in weeks at which point the US was going to support an Afghanistan style insurgency. After Ukraine not only held the line but successfully counter attacked, and it became clear that Russia still had no plans of stopping until it had achieved its own objectives, the United States needed to develop a new strategy. The problem is, it didn't.

    The US has essentially been winging it since late spring of last year. Mainly US efforts have just been geared toward keeping Ukraine in the fight with no coherent long term plan whatsoever. It's not clear if this is due to stupidity/incompetence on the part of the US or simply a weariness regarding the potential for escalation. It also could be some combination of the two.

    Replies: @LatW

    The US has essentially been winging it since late spring of last year. Mainly US efforts have just been geared toward keeping Ukraine in the fight with no coherent long term plan whatsoever. It’s not clear if this is due to stupidity/incompetence on the part of the US or simply a weariness regarding the potential for escalation. It also could be some combination of the two.

    That’s probably the case, but I wouldn’t be so hard on the US. It’s a very complicated situation. It is exactly right that they had to adopt a new strategy on the go a few months ago. They may not be sure what to do with the new situation if a new security situation arises out of this. Also, there are different ideas about the approach and even what looks like different ideological streams within the administration (some are hawks like the Secretary of Defense and Secretary of State, while others are more lenient such as Sullivan who seems to be more like Kerry). Nobody was fully prepared and this is all ad hoc and kind of on the go.

    It has been slow but help is coming along.

    Both Poland and the Netherlands have signaled that they would agree to provide F16s. There is pressure from the German public, too. So they will be unblocking this issue at NATO and discussing it at length. Why would they provide the Leopards without air support?

    • Replies: @Greasy William
    @LatW


    Why would they provide the Leopards without air support?
     
    1. Because they are winging it
    2. As a means of intimidating Russia
    3. Because they don't want it to appear like they aren't giving Ukraine whatever it needs

    It is clear that the Germans (especially), French, Italians and Hungarians want to sell Ukraine out. Germany only sent the Leopards after the US did some major arm twisting.

    One problem is that since Ukraine is never going to have a large superiority in manpower over Russia, it will need overwhelming superiority in tactics and/or firepower to make major territorial gains from where things are now. The US strategy seems to be to provide relatively small numbers of wunderwaffe and hope that superior western tech is enough to stop the RuAF. But it doesn't appear like that is working.

    If the US is unable/unwilling to dramatically scale up the aid, Ukraine will lose this war.
  726. @AnonfromTN
    @LatW


    Moldova has been quiet as a tiny mouse, doing nothing to anybody. Leave Moldova alone!
     
    Personally, I have nothing for or against Moldova. Direct your demands to the puppet masters of Romania (as Moldovan “president” is actually a Romanian citizen).

    Replies: @LatW

    Personally, I have nothing for or against Moldova. Direct your demands to the puppet masters of Romania (as Moldovan “president” is actually a Romanian citizen).

    They are relatives. Why are you picking on Romania now? You bomb places like Lviv region and Odessa and then you expect Romania to be calm and content about it?

    Moldova didn’t do anything to you. You need to forget about Moldova and leave them alone.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @LatW


    Why are you picking on Romania now?
     
    Anything is possible, but I'm pretty sure AnonfromTN is not Putin, just another passive observer, like all of us, with no responsibility for the events of politics. Remember when Utu was angry against German Reader, like he was the Chancellor of Germany. Maybe it would be good therapy if we could build a "Model United Nations" here and insult each other like we are responsible.

    US. It’s a very complicated situation Nobody was fully prepared and this is all ad hoc and kind of on the go.
     
    Do you think it's unplanned?

    It could be unrealistic to say (assuming more planning than America's politicians can attain), but it looks like it could the famous "slow cook frog".

    They give little pieces of weapons to Ukraine, but not enough to scare the frog. Every few months, the weapons seemed to be slightly more modern.

    From each month, it's seems not much change, but if you compare multi-months, there is a steady trend. But it's moderately changing so the frog is always thinking "it's only a small change of temperature".

    If you look in the US military aid package in March 2022.

    "800 Stinger anti-aircraft systems; 2,000 Javelin, 1,000 light anti-armor weapons, 100 grenade launchers, 5,000 rifles, 1,000 pistols, 400 machine guns, and 400 shotguns". (https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2022/03/16/fact-sheet-on-u-s-security-assistance-for-ukraine)

    They only give very light weapons to Ukraine. Although Tucker Carlson thinks this was significantly.

    But January 2023, "59 Bradley Infantry Fighting Vehicles (IFVs), 90 Stryker Armored Personnel Carriers (APCs), 53 Mine Resistant Ambush Protected Vehicles (MRAPs); 350 High Mobility Multipurpose Wheeled Vehicles (HMMWVs); 20,000 155mm artillery rounds" https://www.defense.gov/News/Releases/Release/Article/3272866/biden-administration-announces-additional-security-assistance-for-ukraine/

    It's already a lot of medium weapons, including the first infantry fighting vehicle to Ukraine. Although still the older stock from the army storage. It's like steady, slow and methodical increase in the type of the weapons, which after 11 months is so much of a significant category change.

    Retrospectively, doesn't this look like they are organized?

    Replies: @LatW

  727. @A123
    @QCIC


    Can you clarify in a brief format why you believe this is a European adventure?
     
    The most obvious driver is MOTIVE. That further ties out to EU actions.
    ___

    What could American possibly get out of such a conflict?

    Go back over a decade and possibly Obama was running something less savory, but that does not explain the folly of 2022. Trump tried to minimize the friction during his 1st term. And, the majority of Americans cannot even find Ukraine on a globe.

    Look at all of the drum beating GW had as a presage to Iraq. There was little (possibly none) of that with Ukraine. Not-The-President Biden spent over a year hiding in his basement.
    ___

    What could the EU get out of such a conflict?

    Remember, European Elites hate Judeo-Christian faiths. It interferes with their SJW Muslim Globalist dogma. Tricking Christian Russians and Christian Ukrainians into killing each other is immediately a double win.

    Putting large numbers of Christian refugees on the move created all sorts of problems in countries they do not like such as Poland and Hungary. Another win.

    What else do European leaders want? They wish to maximize the number of Muslim Rape-ugees to drive their Great Replacement. All the attention on Mediterranean "rescue" vessels was trimming flows. Every party in the Scholz Traffic Light coalition wants vast numbers of Muslim migrants immediately.

    Presto! MENA origin, Muslim migrants on obviously forged Ukrainian documents immediately obtain full benefits. The EU even changed rules so "Ukrainian refugees" did not have to enter from Ukraine. Yet more winning.

    And, the pièce de résistance... Militarily "losing" in Ukraine enables EU Elites to keep the maximum number of Rape-ugees. Their ideal end state is leaving enough standing to encourage Christians to voluntarily repatriate. Simultaneously, to make it unappealing enough they can mute calls for involuntary returns. Yet more winning.
    ___

    The European WEF wins by losing Ukraine.

    Sad, but one has to appreciate the masterful strategy. Many still think it is a war between Ukraine and Russia. It is actually a war against Christianity (both Ukraine and Russia). European, often German, elites are not even being called on it. The distraction job is artful. Tragic. But definitely artful.
    ____

    I know you want to resist this concept. Try this as a thought experiment. What would you do to:

    • LOSE a conflict?
    • WIN a conflict?

    Compare that to what is happening in Ukraine. Mistakes happen in war, but the preponderance of selections from by Europe and the Kiev regime are overwhelmingly from the lose column.

    If the majority of freely made choices are from the LOSE side of the ledger, does that not imply that losing is part of the strategy?

    PEACE 😇

    Replies: @QCIC

    OK.

    I agree these issues are important and are definitely and intentionally being used to undermine Christian+Enlightenment values in Europe. I don’t think they are central to the Ukrainian mess.

    They might be central to the Syrian mess.

    • Replies: @A123
    @QCIC


    I agree these issues are important and are definitely and intentionally being used to undermine Christian+Enlightenment values in Europe. I don’t think they are central to the Ukrainian mess.

    They might be central to the Syrian mess.
     
    Certainly Syria informed Ukraine.

    Take it away and think about it for a bit.

    • There are things required to win.
    • These things were not done.

    Over ambition and lack of preparedness is a powerful negative force. Russia's woeful under performance, especially in the early week, fits this mold. They were trying to win and logistically horked themselves with poor execution.

    However, "morons + bad luck" can only reach so far. Can anyone explain how the Ukie Maximalist concept of victory ever made sense? Taking back Crimea by force? Umm.... Unrealistic and vastly exceeding the threshold of crazy has a near 100% chance of an internal meltdown.

    You couldn't convince Churchill to give a Zelensky speech. They are that wild.

    PEACE 😇

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @QCIC

  728. @AP
    @Beckow


    Based on your list there are no independent countries in Europe, they all fall under one of your tendentious description of foreign meddling and mischief.
     
    Nonsense.

    Germany is definitely not independent (it has been de-Nazified and occupied).
     
    Germany was indeed occupied. If Germany wanted to legalize the Nazi party today, nobody would stop it. But Germans themselves don't want to do it, it's too embarrassing so they prefer a sly and milder version like Afd.

    So when Russia demanded to decide what Ukrainian political parties would be allowed it demanded to treat Ukraine as an occupied country, like Germany right after World War II.

    And remember EU has a ‘minority rights’ policy, is that also meddling?
     
    It isn't, because each EU country has the policy it wants. For example, France and the Baltic Republics don't want these minority language policies, so they don't have them. The others do want them, so they have them.

    Russia demanded to decide Ukraine's internal language policy. It demanded to limit Ukraine's independence.

    You forgot to mention Russia's other demands:

    Russia demanded that Russia got to decide the size of Ukraine's army and what kind of weapons Ukraine's army would be allowed to have.

    Russia demanded that Russia got to decide what alliances Ukraine would be allowed to join.

    Russia demanded that Russian-inhabited regions with ties to Russia would have special powers and be allowed to veto national policy. In other words, Russia demanded the power to shape Ukraine's constitution and the very organization of the Ukrainian state.

    In summary: Russia demanded that Ukraine surrender its independence.

    And you, as usual, dishonestly claim it wasn't so.

    The Ukrainian people did not want to surrender their independence, so they chose to fight.

    Lviv is on its way to become the next Kishinev
     
    Sour grapes. It's too educated, too nice, too technologically modern, too close to Poland, and unlike Moldova which is 35% or so Russophile it is fully anti-Russian. Next Vilnius at least.

    Replies: @AnonfromTN

    The Ukrainian people did not want to surrender their independence, so they chose to fight.

    If the Ukrainian people “chose to fight”, why did the regime have to resort to forced mobilization, catching males in the streets, shops, churches, and even at the funeral procession of one already mobilized and sent straight to Bandera by the Russian army? Why are “mobilized” sent to the army training camps w/o letting them even to visit their homes? Why do Ukrainian males dress in women’s clothes to go shopping for groceries if they “chose to fight”? Looks like those who “chose to fight” and their conscription-age children actually do not fight. The regime forcibly mobilizes those who did not make this choice and sends them to their death.

    • Replies: @Mikel
    @AnonfromTN


    The regime forcibly mobilizes those who did not make this choice and sends them to their death.
     
    It's utterly ridiculous to say that we have abolished slavery when the government can send a group of thugs dressed in military uniform to catch people on the streets and forcibly send them to fight on the battlefields. They don't just dispose of your body like they did in the times of slavery, they force you to abandon your family and join a cause that you may not agree with at all.

    In the meantime, the countries where statues are being erected and reparations are being paid in repentance for having engaged in slavery not only do not denounce the government that is doing that in Europe right now but support it with political, economic and military means.

    Not that the side that you support would refrain from taking the same measures if necessary. It already did so in Donbas, where thousands of men were forcibly sent to their deaths in the ill-conceived SMO.
    , @AP
    @AnonfromTN


    If the Ukrainian people “chose to fight”, why did the regime have to resort to forced mobilization
     
    You realize that choices reflect majority not universal support.

    Replies: @QCIC

    , @Beckow
    @AnonfromTN

    AP is quite hopeless - like a true fanatic as his side loses he doubles down, bores us with pointless sloganeering, basically lies about everything to make himself feel better. The Kishinev part is very amusing - Lviv is roughly about the same, but Moldova has better wine and prettier women. But let him dream, what else can he do at this point?

    , @Wokechoke
    @AnonfromTN

    At the outbreak of ww1 something like 1,000,000 men in the UK genuinely volunteered to join up.

  729. @AP
    @Dmitry


    Theory of Nietzsche, to justify not following the New Testament,
     
    Translation: not following the personal interpretation of the New Testament by the atheist Dmitry.

    Catholic Church tries to follow New Testament, although with significantly moderated interpretation
     
    Are you going to claim that you know how better interpret the New Testament than the very Church that created it?

    Morality is based on compassion, selfless, behavior etc (this is also as said by the Catholic Church in their website).
     
    Correct. And a beautiful thing about Christendom is that it makes compassion socially acceptable and cruelty unacceptable, and it organizes society such that people are usually treated well and nicely. In a primitive pre-Christian society I may be lauded for my strength and cunning if I lead a band and ambush and kill the neighbors, take their land and women (the violent death rate of such societies both historically and in pockets where they remain such as in the Amazon is about 30%). Here I would be condemned, imprisoned and my family would be embarrassed of me. Does this mean that the compassionate people in Christendom have difficulty being really moral because in this society they benefit from being compassionate and just and are punished if they are not compassionate?

    There is a similar problem when the God-fearing people are giving to help the poor. Is it because they really feel compassion, or is it because they hope to be rewarded.
     
    Why the "or?" Why can't it be both? It is common in our society for people to both want to do the moral thing and to enjoy the rewards of doing so. Or to have first done the good thing because of reward, and then internalized doing the right thing and subsequently doing it for its own sake (say, in the case of raising children to be nice adults). It is a beauty of the Christian society that both coexist in it. Such a society ought to celebrated and strengthened and not falsely equalized to the wicked one of the past, condemned and undermined.

    In the 20th century’s Catholic church teaching, the important determination, is if the person has love or hate in their soul,
     
    Yes, the consequences of having a hate-filled soul are dire. They are spelled out repeatedly.

    which is not something visible from external behavior
     
    Not visible but can be inferred, though not always.

    Replies: @Dmitry

    Translation: not following the personal interpretation of the New Testament by the atheist Dmitry.

    You use the theory of Nietzsche’s “Anti-Christ”, to justify saying the opposite of the New Testament, is “Christianity”. At least, it’s creative to see, but I feel like you were just copying parts from my posts.

    So now you are promoting the anti-Christian values, but when I point that to you they are anti-Christian, you justified it by saying “we are now in a Christian society so the values should be different than in New Testament” You said it in your last post to me. https://www.unz.com/akarlin/open-thread-207/#comment-5784335

    It’s like watching someone eat chocolate and saying “I’m not eating chocolate”. Then they start eating chocolate again. Better accept when you are eating chocolate.

    personal interpretation of the New Testament by the atheist Dmitry.

    Who said anything about personal interpretation of the New Testament?

    Every time you start talking about “personal interpretation” against Church interpretation, and you say the other person is using “personal interpretation”. This isn’t to accept Catholic interpretation is better than personal interpretation.

    But the boring thing, I am writing the Catholic Church interpretation. You don’t seem to know Catholic interpretation, you are not interested in learning, and reject when it is posted. It’s a waste of time to write with someone who has no interest in a topic, but has “unusual” ways of defending their pride. I would prefer to talk to someone with some knowledge of Catholic interpretation, rather than someone who is fully unknowledgeable. You don’t know such basic things like eschatology.

    I already posted from the Catechism of the Catholic Church enough times that everyone here is bored from my posts. From your posts, it seem you are resistant to it, which is fine. But why incorrectly label your views which are so different than the text.

    atheist Dmitry

    Where is this new label from?

    Does this mean that the compassionate people in Christendom have difficulty being really moral because in this society they benefit from being

    You need to read the post https://www.unz.com/akarlin/open-thread-207/#comment-5784878 again.

    “If the society is oppressing people like this, then their visibility is reduced. But the possibility for heroes can increase in some examples. ”

    Not visible but can be inferred, though not always.

    You cut the part of the quote where it says something you don’t like – “which is not something visible from external behavior. This is again the same as in Iron Age texts like “Book of Job”, where the interest of God is to see the interior quality of the person.” And that’s a large part of the teaching, where in church interpretation or not.

    But it would be difficult to match with the – “I am better than that person, I am better than another person”, “This person is bad, while I am good”.

    • Replies: @AP
    @Dmitry


    So now you are promoting the anti-Christian values
     
    The fact that the devout Christians agree that I am mostly right means that you are mistaken again.

    but when I point that to you they are anti-Christian, you justified it by saying “we are now in a Christian society so the values should be different than in New Testament”
     
    You have refused to address several of my responses. Maybe this time you will try?

    You falsely claimed I indicated that we live in the time of the Second Coming. I corrected you by stating that instead we live in a Christian society, so Christ's criticisms of the rich are not quite as applicable in this society as they were in the times of the New Testament, because Christendom's rich are not the same kind of rich of Christ's time and place.

    Here is a Catholic source stating this obvious fact, that you have chosen to ignore:

    https://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=2944

    In order to understand the severe tone in which the Fathers sometimes speak of riches and of its obligations, we must bear in mind that the social world in which they lived was greatly different from our own. The wonderful industrial developments that have taken place in modern times have led to an enormous production of wealth, the possession of which by private individuals rests on honorable titles. In the days of the Roman Empire, the acquisition of wealth was but too frequently secured by the spoliation of conquered lands, by extortionate tax collecting, by excessive usury, by the exploiting of defenseless widows and orphans, and by other dubious means. The result was that, in the popular mind, a certain stigma attached to the possession of great wealth. It was a popular saying, "the rich man is either an unjust man or the heir of one (dives iniquus aut iniqui heres)."

    There was then a proportionately larger number of unfortunate individuals, reduced to dire straits through illness and lack of industrial employment, who were dependent for the bare necessities of life on the charity of more favored persons, and on the ministrations of the clergy of the local churches, each of which maintained by voluntary contributions a treasury for the poor. There did not then flourish the great variety of asylums, hospitals, bureaus of assistance, which are the glorious flowering in medieval and modern times of the spirit of Christian charity.

    And so, in earlier times, the duty of aiding the poor bore more directly and more urgently on the wealthy individual.

    :::::::::::

    This is what I have been saying, which is what the Church teaches. Will you ignore it as usual?

    Who said anything about personal interpretation of the New Testament?
     
    It is your personal interpretation, in contradiction to the teaching of the Church.

    But the boring thing, I am writing the Catholic Church interpretation
     
    A false statement.

    You don’t seem to know Catholic interpretation, you are not interested in learning, and reject when it is posted.
     
    I correct your misinterpretations, as above, and you ignore that.

    I already posted from the Catechism of the Catholic Church
     
    Your concerns were addressed. For example you posted this:

    https://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P2O.HTM

    "Our Lord warns us that we shall be separated from him if we fail to meet the serious needs of the poor and the little ones who are his brethren"

    While I argue that it is necessary to save the poor by sending them to rehabilitation facilities, hospitals or in the last case (if they are hurting themselves or others through crime) my interlocutor proposed that they be left on the streets because they are like ancient Saints, and you compare intervention to Stalinism!

    atheist Dmitry

    Where is this new label from?
     
    You are an atheist, no? Didn't you say that once? I will retract my statement if I am wrong, or if you have changed since then.

    "Not visible but can be inferred, though not always."

    You cut the part of the quote where it says something you don’t like – “which is not something visible from external behavior. This is again the same as in Iron Age texts like “Book of Job”, where the interest of God is to see the interior quality of the person.”
     
    This doesn't contradict "can be inferred, though not always."

    But it would be difficult to match with the – “I am better than that person, I am better than another person”, “This person is bad, while I am good”.
     
    One cannot be 100% certain, but there are people who can likely be considered worse than others.
  730. @A123
    @LatW



    Biden explicitly said today
     
    Doesn’t sound that logical.
     
    Welcome to The American Experience!

     

    Not-The-President Biden occasionally says something accurate. Including today's ramble. However, all listeners grasp that such events are accidental.

    Key observation -- There is no House Appropriation to buy fighters for the Kiev regime. Even if the Veggie-in-Chief changed what little is left his mind, he has no way to fund such a program.

    America has no interest in the Brussels Blunder and will soon walk away from the EU's fiasco.

    PEACE 😇

    Replies: @AnonfromTN

    Even if the Veggie-in-Chief changed what little is left his mind, he has no way to fund such a program.

    Who cares what the Alzheimer-in-Chief thinks (always assuming that this personage is capable of the process)? The same cabal that installed this half-corpse in the White House is controlling the policy of the US, EU, UK, Japan, and lesser fish, from Australia to Republic of Palau.

  731. @QCIC
    @A123

    OK.

    I agree these issues are important and are definitely and intentionally being used to undermine Christian+Enlightenment values in Europe. I don't think they are central to the Ukrainian mess.

    They might be central to the Syrian mess.

    Replies: @A123

    I agree these issues are important and are definitely and intentionally being used to undermine Christian+Enlightenment values in Europe. I don’t think they are central to the Ukrainian mess.

    They might be central to the Syrian mess.

    Certainly Syria informed Ukraine.

    Take it away and think about it for a bit.

    • There are things required to win.
    • These things were not done.

    Over ambition and lack of preparedness is a powerful negative force. Russia’s woeful under performance, especially in the early week, fits this mold. They were trying to win and logistically horked themselves with poor execution.

    However, “morons + bad luck” can only reach so far. Can anyone explain how the Ukie Maximalist concept of victory ever made sense? Taking back Crimea by force? Umm…. Unrealistic and vastly exceeding the threshold of crazy has a near 100% chance of an internal meltdown.

    You couldn’t convince Churchill to give a Zelensky speech. They are that wild.

    PEACE 😇

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @A123


    You couldn’t convince Churchill to give a Zelensky speech. They are that wild.

     

    Why not give full vent to your own wild inclinations, kremlinstoogeA123? The Wagner group has a new tailor made program just for guys of your appeasing ilk, that will allow you to preach your zany brand of Christianity to the front line troops. Prigoshin apparently has drained all of the local prisons and mental wards of new soldier material and needs guys like you in America to pick up the slack...

    https://youtu.be/1qfv7i8-mZU
    Uncle Vanya needs you, kremlinstoogeA123! Perhaps as a Russian military Chaplain?

    , @QCIC
    @A123

    I think the Russian trajectory in the SMO is understandable. Their hand was forced and they had to work out some major kinks. Armchair warriors and news bots can't follow what they are doing, but I doubt much of this is surprising to descendants of the Soviet military.

    I have come to suspect they will level the entire Ukraine if they believe this is required for their survival.

    The details are beyond my ken and I don't like the implications, but I suspect you need to factor in Talmudic teachings to really understand the Ukraine situation. I don't think this piece of the map is so important to "Caucasians" from the USA or Western Europe, not enough to dance with nuclear war. So other factors are in play.

  732. @AnonfromTN
    @AP


    The Ukrainian people did not want to surrender their independence, so they chose to fight.
     
    If the Ukrainian people “chose to fight”, why did the regime have to resort to forced mobilization, catching males in the streets, shops, churches, and even at the funeral procession of one already mobilized and sent straight to Bandera by the Russian army? Why are “mobilized” sent to the army training camps w/o letting them even to visit their homes? Why do Ukrainian males dress in women’s clothes to go shopping for groceries if they “chose to fight”? Looks like those who “chose to fight” and their conscription-age children actually do not fight. The regime forcibly mobilizes those who did not make this choice and sends them to their death.

    Replies: @Mikel, @AP, @Beckow, @Wokechoke

    The regime forcibly mobilizes those who did not make this choice and sends them to their death.

    It’s utterly ridiculous to say that we have abolished slavery when the government can send a group of thugs dressed in military uniform to catch people on the streets and forcibly send them to fight on the battlefields. They don’t just dispose of your body like they did in the times of slavery, they force you to abandon your family and join a cause that you may not agree with at all.

    In the meantime, the countries where statues are being erected and reparations are being paid in repentance for having engaged in slavery not only do not denounce the government that is doing that in Europe right now but support it with political, economic and military means.

    Not that the side that you support would refrain from taking the same measures if necessary. It already did so in Donbas, where thousands of men were forcibly sent to their deaths in the ill-conceived SMO.

  733. @LatW
    @AnonfromTN


    Personally, I have nothing for or against Moldova. Direct your demands to the puppet masters of Romania (as Moldovan “president” is actually a Romanian citizen).
     
    They are relatives. Why are you picking on Romania now? You bomb places like Lviv region and Odessa and then you expect Romania to be calm and content about it?

    Moldova didn't do anything to you. You need to forget about Moldova and leave them alone.

    Replies: @Dmitry

    Why are you picking on Romania now?

    Anything is possible, but I’m pretty sure AnonfromTN is not Putin, just another passive observer, like all of us, with no responsibility for the events of politics. Remember when Utu was angry against German Reader, like he was the Chancellor of Germany. Maybe it would be good therapy if we could build a “Model United Nations” here and insult each other like we are responsible.

    US. It’s a very complicated situation Nobody was fully prepared and this is all ad hoc and kind of on the go.

    Do you think it’s unplanned?

    It could be unrealistic to say (assuming more planning than America’s politicians can attain), but it looks like it could the famous “slow cook frog”.

    They give little pieces of weapons to Ukraine, but not enough to scare the frog. Every few months, the weapons seemed to be slightly more modern.

    From each month, it’s seems not much change, but if you compare multi-months, there is a steady trend. But it’s moderately changing so the frog is always thinking “it’s only a small change of temperature”.

    If you look in the US military aid package in March 2022.

    “800 Stinger anti-aircraft systems; 2,000 Javelin, 1,000 light anti-armor weapons, 100 grenade launchers, 5,000 rifles, 1,000 pistols, 400 machine guns, and 400 shotguns”. (https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2022/03/16/fact-sheet-on-u-s-security-assistance-for-ukraine)

    They only give very light weapons to Ukraine. Although Tucker Carlson thinks this was significantly.

    But January 2023, “59 Bradley Infantry Fighting Vehicles (IFVs), 90 Stryker Armored Personnel Carriers (APCs), 53 Mine Resistant Ambush Protected Vehicles (MRAPs); 350 High Mobility Multipurpose Wheeled Vehicles (HMMWVs); 20,000 155mm artillery rounds” https://www.defense.gov/News/Releases/Release/Article/3272866/biden-administration-announces-additional-security-assistance-for-ukraine/

    It’s already a lot of medium weapons, including the first infantry fighting vehicle to Ukraine. Although still the older stock from the army storage. It’s like steady, slow and methodical increase in the type of the weapons, which after 11 months is so much of a significant category change.

    Retrospectively, doesn’t this look like they are organized?

    • Replies: @LatW
    @Dmitry


    Anything is possible, but I’m pretty sure AnonfromTN is not Putin, just another passive observer, like all of us, with no responsibility for the events of politics.
     
    Of course. It's just unseemly when even countries such as Moldova are forcibly being dragged into this, when everyone knows that in case of Russia's takeover of Ukraine (no matter how unrealistic it may seem now), the next targets would be Moldova and Georgia. It's like these countries are sitting there, doing literally nothing, but Russia still pretends like she has the right to harass them. You say that he is just an observer but the problem is that both the Kremlin and the bulk of the Russian population believes this. Frankly it looks like someone is just walking around the neighborhood looking to pester others because they have some made up insecurities.

    Why pull up Moldova and even Romania when these countries do not even border Russia (except the Transnestr which is occupied and doesn't count)? Why stir things up knowing how quickly these types of conflicts can spread?


    Remember when Utu was angry against German Reader, like he was the Chancellor of Germany.
     
    Well, not only that, utu made some really nasty personal remarks at poor German-Reader, that was frankly brutal. But you're right, some of us take these things too seriously here. LOL
    But I do like this idea of yours of an "Online UN roundtable", it's hilarious! You could be the attache for the Russo-Jewish diaspora. Or should we send you in as an inspector to check the Polish media law?

    Do you think it’s unplanned?
     
    The US must've known at least a month ahead that there would be an invasion. Maybe even in December 2021. But the US could not plan how the first days or weeks of it would go.

    It could be unrealistic to say (assuming more planning than America’s politicians can attain), but it looks like it could the famous “slow cook frog”.
     
    Well, that's exactly what I posted above, that they are boiling the frog slowly. They have to provide these weapons packages in increments to avert a rapid escalation, to let everyone adjust. Look how far we have gotten already - from Stingers to a whole parade of tanks. Yes, that's why it's believable that they could provide air support eventually.

    It’s already a lot of medium weapons, including the first infantry fighting vehicle to Ukraine. Although still the older stock from the army storage. It’s like steady, slow and methodical increase in the type of the weapons, which after 11 months is so much of a significant category change.
     
    Right, when you provide these infantry fighting vehicles, you have to provide tanks because these vehicles are supposed to work together with tanks, you create an offensive triad - tanks, infantry vehicles and air support (for example, combat helicopters such as Apache, which are incredibly impressive and expensive). If you are providing one of these components, it means the rest should follow.

    Retrospectively, doesn’t this look like they are organized?
     
    Yes, it is well organized now and I would even say highly organized given the differences among countries and how they're able to consolidate the position and work together within a large coalition. The public is also supportive.

    But my point was more along the lines that they may not have known how the first weeks/months of the invasion would go. Ukraine should've prepared better - they could've produced way more Stugna and Korsar, purchased other things potentially. Possibly produced a long or middle range missile. But I don't want to blame Ukraine, they have suffered too much.

    Btw, I noticed you mentioned Nietzsche's "Anti-Christ" in a couple of your posts. Not to delve into a religious discussion, I just wanted to note that Nietzsche criticized Christian morality not just for being born out of ressentiment, as he put it, but for basically moving the center of gravity from life to afterlife, and when he defined the value of life, he didn't necessarily mean materialism, but celebrating the exuberance of life and the will to power (essentially the will to thrive and assert oneself). He defined it as "lying away from reality", and focusing on that which does not exist, is what he defined as nihilism.

    The will to power could include these "bourgeoisie values" that you guys were arguing about but it is definitely not reduced to them - it is something much higher and more intense, something very subjective and individualistic and less normative.

    He also criticized compassion because it apparently takes away from one's spiritual vigor, but I don't think today's Christians who try to take care of the unlucky members of society in an institutional manner lack compassion - no, they are compassionate, but they approach this matter in a rational way. They are not Nietzschean at all - since according to his outlook, it is better to not engage in compassion at all. Ok, he's not as monstrous as this sounds, you have to delve deeper to find the good and the beautiful in his philosophy.

    Replies: @Dmitry, @Mikel

  734. @songbird
    @Barbarossa


    This summer while building my addition a chicken got into my house and went jetting out with the tiny kitten riding it’s back angling for the kill.
     
    Sounds like it would have made a good tiktok clip.

    In terms of locomotion, no doubt that cats have a higher burst speed. ~30 mph, compared to ~15-20 mph for a chicken, flapping its wings, or 9 mph for a non-flapping chicken. They say a chicken can run for 2 hours (at 9mph), so they must have more endurance.

    But my interest is more in striking speed, or registration speed.

    I once saw a clip of someone holding an injured eagle up close - and I'm thinking, You know that bird could turn its head 180 degrees and pluck out your eye, before you could even blink, let alone try to block it, if it had the sudden whim.

    Or such is my estimation. I may be exaggerating only slightly.

    Replies: @S

    I once saw a clip of someone holding an injured eagle up close – and I’m thinking, You know that bird could turn its head 180 degrees and pluck out your eye, before you could even blink, let alone try to block it, if it had the sudden whim.

    I have often wondered about the same thing when I see a person on YouTube that will have his or her ‘talking’ pet crow with it’s rather large, powerful, and sharp beak right in their face.

    [MORE]

    People make a mistake of engaging in excessive anthropomorphism in regards to animals.

    Yes, while they share, in particular some of the mammals, some of our human traits, they are at the same time quite different in temperament and outlook, which ought to be respected. I think intellectually, in the case of certain birds and mammals, they are at most at about the age of a 2-3 year old human child.

    There’s been plenty of cases where people thought they could be ‘one’ with sharks, bears, tigers, chimpanzees, raccoons, pit bulls, etc, which ended badly for the humans involved, and wasn’t too good for the animals either, who often enough are then euthanized.

    Getting back to birds, while I’ve never heard of one pecking at a person’s eyes, is it something that has even been studied? I know that some bird owners report their birds pecking at their face or biting fingers, of which they ‘peck’ back to discourage the bird’s behaviour.

    It would be interesting to find out just how often pet birds, as well as run of the mill dogs and cats, do unprovoked meaningful physical harm to their human owners, particularly to vulnerable children and infants who might be part of the household. The hospitals, with their eye specialists, probably know the actual score in this regard. [Also makes me wonder if there has been some covering up in this regard due to the close historic bond between humans and birds, not to mention with dogs and cats.]

    The lovely Lene Lovich and her ‘Bird Song’:

  735. @LatW
    @Greasy William


    The US has essentially been winging it since late spring of last year. Mainly US efforts have just been geared toward keeping Ukraine in the fight with no coherent long term plan whatsoever. It’s not clear if this is due to stupidity/incompetence on the part of the US or simply a weariness regarding the potential for escalation. It also could be some combination of the two.
     
    That's probably the case, but I wouldn't be so hard on the US. It's a very complicated situation. It is exactly right that they had to adopt a new strategy on the go a few months ago. They may not be sure what to do with the new situation if a new security situation arises out of this. Also, there are different ideas about the approach and even what looks like different ideological streams within the administration (some are hawks like the Secretary of Defense and Secretary of State, while others are more lenient such as Sullivan who seems to be more like Kerry). Nobody was fully prepared and this is all ad hoc and kind of on the go.

    It has been slow but help is coming along.

    Both Poland and the Netherlands have signaled that they would agree to provide F16s. There is pressure from the German public, too. So they will be unblocking this issue at NATO and discussing it at length. Why would they provide the Leopards without air support?

    Replies: @Greasy William

    Why would they provide the Leopards without air support?

    1. Because they are winging it
    2. As a means of intimidating Russia
    3. Because they don’t want it to appear like they aren’t giving Ukraine whatever it needs

    It is clear that the Germans (especially), French, Italians and Hungarians want to sell Ukraine out. Germany only sent the Leopards after the US did some major arm twisting.

    One problem is that since Ukraine is never going to have a large superiority in manpower over Russia, it will need overwhelming superiority in tactics and/or firepower to make major territorial gains from where things are now. The US strategy seems to be to provide relatively small numbers of wunderwaffe and hope that superior western tech is enough to stop the RuAF. But it doesn’t appear like that is working.

    If the US is unable/unwilling to dramatically scale up the aid, Ukraine will lose this war.

  736. @Yahya
    @Dmitry


    There is a very disappointing sentence, even I feel hurt by this betrayal of the Arabian tradition.
     
    Lol, well if it helps, I did learn how to cook eggs among other things during my university days. Nothing special, just basic dishes like eggs with beef bacon, salmon fillet, and pasta etc. But almost always with an aid of videos or websites. I could perhaps re-learn to cook these items, but I’ve no need to cook in Egypt. There are servants here that do these things better, and ordering from restaurants is very affordable.

    In Boston I was compelled to cook after finding that 95% of restaurants were mediocre. The only nice restaurants were high-end ones like Maestro or Strip; but they cost an arm and a leg and of course were unsuitable for regular consumption.

    The whole culinary experience in Boston was very disappointing. Supposedly there are lots of Italian-Americans around in the area; but I didn’t eat a single good pizza during my time in the city. You can find better pizza in my little neighborhood in Cairo. The restaurants in Boston tend to be clean and well-designed; but otherwise the food is uninspiring.

    What I do miss about Boston is the chic coffee shops where you can have a bourgeois-style breakfast while reading a book and drinking artisan coffee. You can’t really do that in Egypt. One of my favorite breakfast places was this artisan Israeli-Jewish joint called Tatte (https://tattebakery.com). They served Arabic-style food which I appreciated, since it was hard to come by in Boston. The shawarma joints in Boston totally sucked; they couldn’t replicate the taste of authentic Middle Eastern food. The chicken in the US was uniformly atrocious; they just put in special chemicals that make it taste bland and inauthentic. The steak on the other hand was excellent.


    Do they use mainly olive oil in Egypt
     
    Yes, olive oil is used frequently with fava beans as a staple breakfast for Egyptians. Statistics all over the place, but Egypt ranks below Greece, Italy and Spain in olive oil consumption.

    There is one of the questions we discussed earlier. Is Egypt the Levant or North Africa? I was sure it is Levant, but you thought it was not Levant.
     
    Egypt is more Levantine than North African. But still, it is quite distinct from the Levant. If you are familiar with the nuances of the region, first key difference you’ll notice is the distinctive Egyptian dialect which is quite apart from Levantine Arabic; or any other Arabic dialect for that matter. Egypt is big enough population-wise to have its own culture separate from any Arab bloc. Egyptian phenotypes also tend to be darker and more Afro-looking than Levantines.

    I don’t fault you for thinking Egypt is part of the Levant. There’s been significant cultural and historical interaction between the two regions; going all the way back to the Bronze Age. In the 20th century many Levantines emigrated to Egypt and integrated fairly quickly into society; rising to become actors, singers, journalists etc. Amin Maalouf, a Lebanese Maronite who grew up in Egypt, mentions this in his book Adrift. Omar Sharif is commonly thought of as being Egyptian but is of Lebanese Greek Orthodox origin. The Syrian Druze duo Asmahan and Farid Al-Atrash were prominent singers in 20th century Egypt:

    https://youtu.be/p-oZAVAbi2M

    But still, when Egyptians refer to “the Levant” (bilad al-Sham) it’s always using “them” not “us”. The identity is separate.


    If you look in bookshops in Europe, there are the most popular cooking books are often relating to Middle Eastern food.
     
    Well I can imagine that Europeans would be allured by the exotic cuisine of the Near East. But this is not unique really to Middle Eastern food. When I visited the Louvre a month ago; about half of the exhibition items were Near Eastern: Persia, Egypt and Mesopotamia.

    For food; I guess they should look to Syria first, as they in my opinion have the best food in the region, closely followed by Turkey and Lebanon. Syrians also tend to pay more attention to aesthetics in food presentation; something Egyptians don’t do well in. This is a nice Syrian cookbook with a cool Arabic calligraphy on the cover:

    https://www.amazon.com/Scents-Flavors-Cookbook-Library-Literature/dp/1479856282

    Not surprised it would sell well.

    Replies: @Sher Singh, @Dmitry

    Boston I was compelled to cook after finding that 95% of restaurants were mediocre..
    hicken in the US was uniformly

    You were living in Boston? There you can share memories with Songbird. If I recall, he is not too much fan of chickens either.

    Europeans would be allured by the exotic cuisine of the Near East

    I would think, more the opposite, because it’s not so exotic. The more fashionable cuisine in Europe in the second half of the 20th century was probably Italy and Spain.

    Traditional peasants’ Italian food is similar to Near Eastern food. But there has been oversaturation about “pasta and pizza” that is overfocused from the exported Italian food.

    So, today people are looking for more similar recipes from the Mediterranean. More traditional and less industrialized. Have you noticed some of the popular cooking YouTubers are Egyptians.

    they should look to Syria first, as they in my opinion have the best food in the region, closely followed by Turkey

    But I’d guess most of the population of Syria has been too poor to have access to adequate mixes of ingredients even before the war (2011) damaged their agriculture, so a significant part of the population live in refugee camps today.

    By the way, what do you think about this connoisseurship for dates like in Saudi Arabia?

    • Replies: @A123
    @Dmitry

    I was attempting to watch the 2023 Dakar rally in Saudi Arabia.... Guess what happened...

     
    https://youtu.be/3bcxzzzFty4
     

    PEACE 😇



    I am placing it below MORE, but my suspicion is that Yahya will find the excessive focus on dates to be overblown by media that need an interest story.

    It is like going to the American South and covering "noodling catfish" as a cultural norm.

    https://youtu.be/MM3564qCFuQ

    Replies: @QCIC

    , @Yahya
    @Dmitry


    If I recall, he is not too much fan of chickens either.
     
    Lol, he probably dislikes American chicken because it is an African-American favorite. Watermelon too, probably.

    You were living in Boston? There you can share memories with Songbird.
     
    I’ve mentioned it a few times over the years. Songbird and I briefly discussed the architecture of the beautiful McKim building in the Boston library. But of course he just had to insert a remark on how the “Chinese” and other “sassy” foreigners had ruined his experience of the library. So there’s no use in discussing anything really with that guy; too much race on the brain.

    But I’d guess most of the population of Syria has been too poor to have access
     
    That could be true; but I think for food you can do a lot with little. I was recently watching this video of a couple of Damascenes roaming around the city in 2018; and was quite surprised by how nice Damascus looked.

    https://youtu.be/ULEtzGZq1vM

    One would think the war would’ve taken a toll on the city; but perhaps it’s localized in a few places. Or they may have rebuilt it quickly. I recall Tyler Cowen mentioning that reconstruction following war is far easier than building things from scratch. The knowledge is already there to capitalize; all that is needed is capital and stability.

    I’ve only visited Damascus once when I was 7 years old. I don’t remember much; but I do recall how spacious and beautiful it seemed; especially in comparison to Cairo, which is unbelievably chaotic and disappointingly ugly in many places. The Levant imo is one of the most beautiful natural landscapes in the world. It only takes a moderate level of urban development to make a place like Damascus or Jerusalem look aesthetically pleasing. In fact one could argue that anything beyond a moderate level would tend to ruin the charm and gravitas of these places.

    Just looking at photos of Jaffa/Yafo; it seems economically depressed in comparison to the bustling Tel Aviv behind it; but is incomparably beautiful:


    https://i.ibb.co/txcKsdS/3-B883-DC1-1-EFA-4-A77-8-A59-1-D34473-CDFFE.webp


    So perhaps economic development is not the highest good that economists would have us believe. I’d like to visit Israel/Palestine but there are some obstacles to my doing so. But if the social environment permits it one day; which places do you recommend visiting?


    By the way, what do you think about this connoisseurship for dates like in Saudi Arabia?
     
    Well dates are fundamentally tied to the image of Saudi Arabia; and rightfully so. In any house you visit there; the host will bring you a pile of dates along with Arabic or Turkish coffee. Saudis take great pride in their knowledge of dates and their point of origin. I personally prefer to drink a milkshake with dates and bananas rather than eat it.

    Saudi Arabia has a pretty unique national cuisine and a top-quality restaurant scene; definitely an interesting place to go if you are a foody. The restaurants there are staffed with a variety of foreign laborers from all over the world; India, Philippines, Indonesia, Syria, Egypt, Japan etc. so you get the authentic cooking styles from each of these nations. I think only UAE can rival the KSA in that respect. On the other hand, these restaurants are international; I can’t think of any actually that serve native Arabian cuisine; because most Saudis have servants to cook for them at home (or otherwise the stay-at-home wife). The best experience you’ll have there is to eat Kabsah with the Bedouins out in the desert. Just a wonderful vibe; but you can replicate the experience in Sharm El-Sheikh too with the Bedouins of Sinai.

    Saudi Arabia otherwise is a lame place to visit for tourism. It’s almost comical how little we have in history that is of interest to anyone but Saudis. When I was in Riyadh I visited a fortress that had served as the main base for King Abdulaziz, the founder of Saudi Arabia. There was literally two other Spanish tourists and no-one else. On the other hand; the government is putting an all-out effort to develop this place called Al-Ula in Northern Arabia to become a touristic destination; based on some evidence that Moses and other biblical characters had traversed there.

    https://youtu.be/z8A0LpX7_yM

    This video narrated by Jeremey Irons seems to have gotten a good number of views (8M); so perhaps the gubmint will succeed in their efforts. But still there are obstacles to attracting foreigners; like a ban on alcohol and bikinis. So we’ll see.

    Replies: @songbird

  737. @Dmitry
    @LatW


    Why are you picking on Romania now?
     
    Anything is possible, but I'm pretty sure AnonfromTN is not Putin, just another passive observer, like all of us, with no responsibility for the events of politics. Remember when Utu was angry against German Reader, like he was the Chancellor of Germany. Maybe it would be good therapy if we could build a "Model United Nations" here and insult each other like we are responsible.

    US. It’s a very complicated situation Nobody was fully prepared and this is all ad hoc and kind of on the go.
     
    Do you think it's unplanned?

    It could be unrealistic to say (assuming more planning than America's politicians can attain), but it looks like it could the famous "slow cook frog".

    They give little pieces of weapons to Ukraine, but not enough to scare the frog. Every few months, the weapons seemed to be slightly more modern.

    From each month, it's seems not much change, but if you compare multi-months, there is a steady trend. But it's moderately changing so the frog is always thinking "it's only a small change of temperature".

    If you look in the US military aid package in March 2022.

    "800 Stinger anti-aircraft systems; 2,000 Javelin, 1,000 light anti-armor weapons, 100 grenade launchers, 5,000 rifles, 1,000 pistols, 400 machine guns, and 400 shotguns". (https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2022/03/16/fact-sheet-on-u-s-security-assistance-for-ukraine)

    They only give very light weapons to Ukraine. Although Tucker Carlson thinks this was significantly.

    But January 2023, "59 Bradley Infantry Fighting Vehicles (IFVs), 90 Stryker Armored Personnel Carriers (APCs), 53 Mine Resistant Ambush Protected Vehicles (MRAPs); 350 High Mobility Multipurpose Wheeled Vehicles (HMMWVs); 20,000 155mm artillery rounds" https://www.defense.gov/News/Releases/Release/Article/3272866/biden-administration-announces-additional-security-assistance-for-ukraine/

    It's already a lot of medium weapons, including the first infantry fighting vehicle to Ukraine. Although still the older stock from the army storage. It's like steady, slow and methodical increase in the type of the weapons, which after 11 months is so much of a significant category change.

    Retrospectively, doesn't this look like they are organized?

    Replies: @LatW

    Anything is possible, but I’m pretty sure AnonfromTN is not Putin, just another passive observer, like all of us, with no responsibility for the events of politics.

    Of course. It’s just unseemly when even countries such as Moldova are forcibly being dragged into this, when everyone knows that in case of Russia’s takeover of Ukraine (no matter how unrealistic it may seem now), the next targets would be Moldova and Georgia. It’s like these countries are sitting there, doing literally nothing, but Russia still pretends like she has the right to harass them. You say that he is just an observer but the problem is that both the Kremlin and the bulk of the Russian population believes this. Frankly it looks like someone is just walking around the neighborhood looking to pester others because they have some made up insecurities.

    Why pull up Moldova and even Romania when these countries do not even border Russia (except the Transnestr which is occupied and doesn’t count)? Why stir things up knowing how quickly these types of conflicts can spread?

    [MORE]

    Remember when Utu was angry against German Reader, like he was the Chancellor of Germany.

    Well, not only that, utu made some really nasty personal remarks at poor German-Reader, that was frankly brutal. But you’re right, some of us take these things too seriously here. LOL
    But I do like this idea of yours of an “Online UN roundtable”, it’s hilarious! You could be the attache for the Russo-Jewish diaspora. Or should we send you in as an inspector to check the Polish media law?

    Do you think it’s unplanned?

    The US must’ve known at least a month ahead that there would be an invasion. Maybe even in December 2021. But the US could not plan how the first days or weeks of it would go.

    It could be unrealistic to say (assuming more planning than America’s politicians can attain), but it looks like it could the famous “slow cook frog”.

    Well, that’s exactly what I posted above, that they are boiling the frog slowly. They have to provide these weapons packages in increments to avert a rapid escalation, to let everyone adjust. Look how far we have gotten already – from Stingers to a whole parade of tanks. Yes, that’s why it’s believable that they could provide air support eventually.

    It’s already a lot of medium weapons, including the first infantry fighting vehicle to Ukraine. Although still the older stock from the army storage. It’s like steady, slow and methodical increase in the type of the weapons, which after 11 months is so much of a significant category change.

    Right, when you provide these infantry fighting vehicles, you have to provide tanks because these vehicles are supposed to work together with tanks, you create an offensive triad – tanks, infantry vehicles and air support (for example, combat helicopters such as Apache, which are incredibly impressive and expensive). If you are providing one of these components, it means the rest should follow.

    Retrospectively, doesn’t this look like they are organized?

    Yes, it is well organized now and I would even say highly organized given the differences among countries and how they’re able to consolidate the position and work together within a large coalition. The public is also supportive.

    But my point was more along the lines that they may not have known how the first weeks/months of the invasion would go. Ukraine should’ve prepared better – they could’ve produced way more Stugna and Korsar, purchased other things potentially. Possibly produced a long or middle range missile. But I don’t want to blame Ukraine, they have suffered too much.

    Btw, I noticed you mentioned Nietzsche’s “Anti-Christ” in a couple of your posts. Not to delve into a religious discussion, I just wanted to note that Nietzsche criticized Christian morality not just for being born out of ressentiment, as he put it, but for basically moving the center of gravity from life to afterlife, and when he defined the value of life, he didn’t necessarily mean materialism, but celebrating the exuberance of life and the will to power (essentially the will to thrive and assert oneself). He defined it as “lying away from reality”, and focusing on that which does not exist, is what he defined as nihilism.

    The will to power could include these “bourgeoisie values” that you guys were arguing about but it is definitely not reduced to them – it is something much higher and more intense, something very subjective and individualistic and less normative.

    He also criticized compassion because it apparently takes away from one’s spiritual vigor, but I don’t think today’s Christians who try to take care of the unlucky members of society in an institutional manner lack compassion – no, they are compassionate, but they approach this matter in a rational way. They are not Nietzschean at all – since according to his outlook, it is better to not engage in compassion at all. Ok, he’s not as monstrous as this sounds, you have to delve deeper to find the good and the beautiful in his philosophy.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @LatW


    he is just an observer but the problem Russian population believes this.
     
    About AnoninTN, if I remember, he is from Ukraine, from Lvov. Also Here Be Dragon was from Ukraine, but then he was living in Poland. So, our idiosyncratic forum - the users of the forum supporting the invasion, are those users from Ukraine (except Beckow is from Czechoslovakia).

    Why pull up Moldova

     

    Well, Moldova was part of the USSR. They supplied everyone with cognac. Maybe there could be the alcoholic version of the conspiracy theory "they want to invade Iraq for oil".

    “Online UN roundtable”, it’s hilarious! You could be the attache for the Russo-Jewish
     
    I guess this job means arguing to support Prigozhin and Solovyov. Maybe I can be Costa Rica.

    provide these infantry fighting vehicles, you have to provide tanks because these vehicles

     

    It's already a significant escalation, although perhaps it will be many months before they will be fighting in the war.

    In the Second World War, they would have probably called these "light tanks". And they have nightvision optics, very long-range anti-tank missiles etc.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Vmikwrhc5E


    that they are boiling the frog slowly. They have to provide these weapons packages in increments to avert a rapid escalation, to let everyone adjust

     

    And they change the discussion to the next weapon, so Biden says "no don't worry we wouldn't give Ukraine those weapons". Then six months later it will be the next weapon, slowly building the parts of an army. I remember in the summer it was talking about giving 155mm howitzers (artillery) to Ukraine.

    monstrous as this sounds, you have to delve deeper to find the good and the beautiful in his philosophy
     
    Sure, of course these are great German writers, which are famous for a reason.

    Replies: @AP, @LatW

    , @Mikel
    @LatW


    everyone knows that in case of Russia’s takeover of Ukraine (no matter how unrealistic it may seem now), the next targets would be Moldova and Georgia.
     
    Do Russian nationalists have designs on the whole of Georgia? My understanding of that region is that the Russians have already carved out the parts of Georgia inhabited by pro-Russian majorities with only formal annexation pending.

    I have certainly read Russians threatening to march on Warsaw or Berlin but I always interpreted that kind of threats as a reaction to the perceived animosity of the Poles and the Germans rather than to any expansionist wishes to non-Russian lands. In any case, now that they've discovered that their army is unable to even take Avdiivka, I doubt they'll have much appetite left for faraway lands when the war in Ukraine is over.

    Replies: @Ivashka the fool, @LatW

  738. @Yahya
    @Leaves No Shadow


    Is this a Middle Eastern form of apology? Or a fancy boarding school one?

     

    It's a joke; meant to break the ice and move on.

    Replies: @A123, @Barbarossa

    Finally, an update on “War and Peace” by Bondarchuk! We finished the first part tonight (we’ll have to do it in pieces since I believe it around 7+ hours long, and it is quite magnificent so far. Even with subtitles it is extremely immersive despite, or perhaps because of, the leisurely pacing. Though to be honest, I never find subtitles any real distraction. My wife is also really enjoying it. Thanks again for recommending it. I passed on the recommendation to a Russian friend of mine who happen to be currently reading War and Peace, so it’s all quite apropos.

    I’ll give a full reaction once I get done with the entire thing.

    The kids actually enjoyed it, or at least were interested enough to sit through it so far. My 11 year old was the most enthusiastic, exclaiming that “the acting was so good, it’s like real life! How do they do that?!” My 14 year old’s main take-away was that she’s still not sure she knows what is going on, but 14 year olds are already jaded and weary of life to an extent, so I think she must think it’s okay. My 3 year old used as an excuse to snuggle but would occasionally parrot random Russian dialog he thought sounded funny. He perked up a bit more for the battles. My 5 year old knowingly proclaimed that it’s both a princess movie and a fighting movie (which is technically pretty accurate). My 8 year old proclaimed it “good”, without further elaboration. We’ll see if they make it through the whole thing, but it’s a moderate success so far.

    [MORE]

    I passed along my newest of the articles that I write for the local paper via email. If you would like to keep getting them I can keep you on the email list but if you feel that you don’t need another damnable bloviator jamming up your inbox with opinions, then feel free to let me know and I’ll take you off. No hard feelings at all either way, and I hope I haven’t been too presumptuous sending the one out unsolicited.

    • Thanks: Yahya, RSDB
    • LOL: Mikel
    • Replies: @Yahya
    @Barbarossa


    I passed along my newest of the articles that I write for the local paper via email. If you would like to keep getting them I can keep you on the email list
     
    I checked my inbox and spam; and didn’t find the email. Can you please re-send? I read one article you posted a while back (the Irish satire); was interested to read more but your name on the header doesn’t link to a comprehensive page of your articles.

    Even with subtitles it is extremely immersive despite, or perhaps because of, the leisurely pacing.
     
    War & Peace is one of the few movies where slow pacing was both appropriate and conducive to enhancing the viewers cinematic experience. There have been a few others like Space Odyessy, Lawrence of Arabia, or The Two Popes; but these are far and few in between. My beef with this technique is not that I dislike slow pacing; but that certain pretentious eurotrash directors seem to deliberately employ the snail’s pace to make their movie seem more sophisticated than it is. They are blackmailing critics and viewers into rating the film highly (despite not liking it) by subliminaly threatening them with looking unsophisticated if they don’t. It is this emotional blackmail that makes me despise the eurotrash director; especially the French ones who leverage their nation’s prestige to produce garbage which everyone hates to watch; but is nonetheless praised through the roof by cowardly critics and gullible film students.

    But War & Peace really is a masterpiece of a movie. Everything about it; the plot, characters, casting, cinematography, dialogue etc. is of the highest degree of excellence. If the world was just; it would’ve been placed in the Sight & Sound list of top 100 movies of all-time. But alas; the critics choose to worship at the alter of Goddard, Bergman and Fellini. I think the main reason why War & Peace succeeds so well is because; despite Bondarchuck’s high-brow inclinations; he was given lavish funding by the Soviet government and in turn paid more attention to the entertainment factor in order to reach a wider audience and give the state a return on investment. Nothing is more magnificent than a movie that is at once entertaining and intelligent. And the Soviet Union deserves credit for funding a blockbuster that maintained concern for artistic value.

    I’ve watched another of Bondarchuck’s movies called My Uncle Vanya; based on a Chekhov play; and while it was intelligent and sophisticated (it could hardly be otherwise; given the author); it failed to entertain and was thus resigned to obscurity; only to be watched by people like me, who may be regarded as an esoteric sect. This is the problem with Soviet and Eastern European movies in the general; they’re not stupid, certainly far more intelligent than the average Hollywood movie; but they fail at the basic function of keeping viewers engaged. It’s no wonder hardly anyone outside Eastern Europe watches any of that stuff. Again; the directors coming out of Anglo-America do a better job at walking the fine line between entertainment and sophistication; and that’s why they achieve persistent fame, accolades and viewership.

    Replies: @Emil Nikola Richard, @Yevardian

  739. @Dmitry
    @Yahya


    Boston I was compelled to cook after finding that 95% of restaurants were mediocre..
    hicken in the US was uniformly
     
    You were living in Boston? There you can share memories with Songbird. If I recall, he is not too much fan of chickens either.

    Europeans would be allured by the exotic cuisine of the Near East

     

    I would think, more the opposite, because it's not so exotic. The more fashionable cuisine in Europe in the second half of the 20th century was probably Italy and Spain.

    Traditional peasants' Italian food is similar to Near Eastern food. But there has been oversaturation about "pasta and pizza" that is overfocused from the exported Italian food.

    So, today people are looking for more similar recipes from the Mediterranean. More traditional and less industrialized. Have you noticed some of the popular cooking YouTubers are Egyptians.


    they should look to Syria first, as they in my opinion have the best food in the region, closely followed by Turkey
     
    But I'd guess most of the population of Syria has been too poor to have access to adequate mixes of ingredients even before the war (2011) damaged their agriculture, so a significant part of the population live in refugee camps today.

    -

    By the way, what do you think about this connoisseurship for dates like in Saudi Arabia?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bnJcyszCmb8

    Replies: @A123, @Yahya

    I was attempting to watch the 2023 Dakar rally in Saudi Arabia…. Guess what happened…

     

     

    PEACE 😇

    [MORE]

    I am placing it below MORE, but my suspicion is that Yahya will find the excessive focus on dates to be overblown by media that need an interest story.

    It is like going to the American South and covering “noodling catfish” as a cultural norm.

    • Replies: @QCIC
    @A123

    I support Hannah and am offended by any conflation with dates or Arabians.

  740. @songbird
    What is the deal with the promotion of eating bugs? Aren't chickens more efficient at turning feed into protein, especially when you count eggs?

    Are they trying to raise the efficiency of bugs to surpass that of chickens? Or to get ahead of some movement to reject the killing of warm-blooded farm animals?

    Or is it just green grifting?

    Replies: @S

    What is the deal with the promotion of eating bugs?

    I think it’s part of the conditioning they are performing to prepare the planned for greatly dumbed down five hundred million human survivors of WWIII for the world the present day elites and hangers on wish for them to inhabit.

    I would add Tyler Durden’s speech from 1999’s Fight Club to that:

    In the world I see – you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You’ll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You’ll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you’ll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty car pool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

    Along with the recently heard, though with a slight addendum:

    ‘You will have nothing, and you will work for nothing, and you will be happy.’

    https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/tag/tyler_durden

    [MORE]

    As an aside, are you familiar with the actress Julie Newmar by chance, Songbird? Amongst other characters, she played Catwoman in the 1960’s Batman series.

    While she was (and still is) certainly physically beautiful, she seemed to have had a beautiful spirit about herself, too, which seemed to really shine through at times. In other words, I don’t think she was always simply characterizing, whomever she might be portraying, a truism with many and actor and actress I suppose.

    • Replies: @songbird
    @S


    As an aside, are you familiar with the actress Julie Newmar by chance, Songbird? Amongst other characters, she played Catwoman in the 1960’s Batman series.
     
    Only very slightly. I recall hearing her name quite a bit (evidently she made an impression on a lot of people), but what I remember most from that show is Vincent Price playing Egghead. Guilty pleasure, when he throws out those egg-puns with almost every line.

    https://youtu.be/f04ULfzkMhY
    __
    What I also thought with bugs is that they are probably easier to put on ice, so to speak, if you had them in some nuclear bunker.

    What a lot of people say about it is that the bugs are higher in environmental toxins and germs because you are eating their guts and skin.

    >THX
    Never saw it (Don't think I'd have the stomach for it.) But I did see one of his friend Spielberg's earlier efforts: The Duel (1971). IMO, it kind of has vibes of folk horror to it, in that I think Spielberg is showing his dislike/fear of rural areas, but it is understated, as it mainly focuses on one antagonist, a trucker.

    >regarding the behavior of animals.

    I have heard before of people loosing an eye to wild birds.

    Once, when I was young, I buried my friend in sand at the beach, and put a towel on his face, and pretended to throw food on him, so that he could scare the seagulls. Wouldn't have done it, if I had a better appreciation for the dangers. Though, he came out of it alright.

    I have some limited experience with pits and pit mutts. Never had one myself, but I think Singapore was right to ban them. It's remarkable the differences between them and a golden retriever. One thing I noticed is that they seem quick to fly into a rage, when they hear another dog bark, even if it isn't on their own territory. They often seem high strung too. You could almost walk, with a golden retriever strapped under each foot, without each one even flinching, but pits get nervous when you step near them, not even on them - but near them. IMO, they definitely have low impulse control. The kind of dog who will try to raid the larder.

    One thing that has always amazed me about dogs is their sense of smell. It must feed into a mind nothing like our own, just because they have this extra sense.

    I once castigated a dog that was indoors because I thought it had marked a spot. To my shock, he immediately began marking the spot - then I realized that it hadn't been him, but another dog, and he thought I was upbraiding him for not marking over the same spot. And if I had had the same sense of smell, I would have known which dog it was.

    Replies: @S

  741. @AnonfromTN
    @AP


    The Ukrainian people did not want to surrender their independence, so they chose to fight.
     
    If the Ukrainian people “chose to fight”, why did the regime have to resort to forced mobilization, catching males in the streets, shops, churches, and even at the funeral procession of one already mobilized and sent straight to Bandera by the Russian army? Why are “mobilized” sent to the army training camps w/o letting them even to visit their homes? Why do Ukrainian males dress in women’s clothes to go shopping for groceries if they “chose to fight”? Looks like those who “chose to fight” and their conscription-age children actually do not fight. The regime forcibly mobilizes those who did not make this choice and sends them to their death.

    Replies: @Mikel, @AP, @Beckow, @Wokechoke

    If the Ukrainian people “chose to fight”, why did the regime have to resort to forced mobilization

    You realize that choices reflect majority not universal support.

    • Replies: @QCIC
    @AP

    Most readers recognize that the videos of officially sanctioned Ukrainian thugs press ganging innocent men undermine your noble 'Azovian' perspective. This is what happens when people start an avoidable war.

    Great job, morons.

    Replies: @AP

  742. @AP
    @Dmitry


    But it is the opposite of the Catholic church and also opposite of what Church fathers are writing. In their view, we don’t live in the time after the Second Coming
     
    I did not claim that we did. But we do live in a Christian society that is largely based on Christian values and thus is very different from the one that Jesus rebelled against (or separated Himself from).

    Given the radical difference, the approach must also be different.

    And in their teaching, pride is the first of capital sins.
     
    Indeed, and we all sin.

    And in their view, “failing to meet the needs” of the poor and weak is second reason for going to hell, after hate and murder.
     
    Of course. And this was the heart of my dispute with AaronB. He objected to meeting the needs of the poor because he compared them to Christ and His disciples and felt that their state of poverty/refusal to work was evidence of virtue. He felt that helping them by hospitalizing them, sending them to rehab, or even in the worst case scenario if they have committed crimes sending them to prison where they will no longer be a danger to themselves or others and will receive medical care, food, shelter and help with addiction was a bad thing to do, by subjecting them to the Machine, or something like that.

    I demand that the needs of the poor be met, that we not turn away and let them rot in the street for their "freedom." That we act as shepherds and not leave them to the wolves even if they say they want to be left to the wolves.

    I don’t understand this. Really, any normal people don’t think like this, as they have morality and concepts like compassion, as the mainstream in our culture.
     
    People who are not Christian may not think of unborn children as people or have compassion for them; they think o them as clumps of cells. The discussion was about them being in favor of aborting fetuses who have been determined to have Downs syndrome. For such people I used a utilitarian-social argument. That the people who give to birth to such kids also tend to have large families, and that the kids are sweethearts who elicit compassion and good from their families, so that overall their existence is good for society. This does not contradict the religious argument about inherent self-worth.

    So, you believe it is good to promote the hypothetical punishment and reward of religion, so this will be able to reduce crime and socially useful behavior.

    If you control an intelligent rat in the Skinner box that understands language. Instead of using electric shock to control its behavior, you talk to the rat about the hypothetical electric shock it will have when it exits the box. So, you believe the rat will behave in the way which you desire, because it now believes there will be an electric shock when it exits the box (i.e. after life).

    This is not morality, it is the rat’s selfish behavior based on hypothetical view of punishment and reward in the after life, as a rat in any box.

     

    You are repeating Kant's ethics, right?

    He was neither a Catholic nor was he Orthodox.

    The position of the Church is that the morality involves both duty do what is right and to do things that which brings us closer to God (and therefore, to avoid Hell).

    But morality is the idea that you do the right things, because it is the right things, not because of consequences
     
    This is your idea of morality.

    The problem with your idea of morality is that it leads to a sort of moral nihilism. You will say that people in a society in which few people harm others because doing it is socially unacceptable, are no better than cruel people who live in a society that celebrates cruelty, because the former merely follow social convention. That the nice person in Christendom who unthinkably pays for the poor and looks after his neighbor isn't really better than the pagan who unthinkably goes to the Coliseum in order to get entertained by animals ripping apart screaming people. One could then conclude, based on your morality, that truly moral people are more likely to exist in a society that is very depraved and that insist upon depravity for its members because in such a society doing the right thing has negative consequences rather than rewards.

    You also assume the worst of people who do the right thing because they are guided by the teaching of the Church. That someone who will not harm someone else because they fear Hell, would otherwise delight in harming someone else.

    Morality is based from not selfish beliefs (“what will happen to me in this life or after life”), but from the internal compassion, duty, etc.
     
    The former is often necessary to develop the latter. Morality is not arbitrary. What about someone who internalizes what is right and what is wrong based on teachings of nearness to God and fear of Hell?

    Replies: @Dmitry, @Barbarossa

    we do live in a Christian society

    We do?!? Do you live in some insular Catholic commune in the deep wilds of Massachusetts or something? I’m consistently amazed at your optimism at the state of our culture.

    Personally, I would say that it’s hard to say that anything past the Enlightenment and certainly past the Industrial Age could lay any claim to being called a Christian society. Christian values have certainly hung around in a vestigial way, but these are slowly consumed and find their inversion in political Woke liberalism.

    • Replies: @AP
    @Barbarossa


    we do live in a Christian society

    We do?!?
     
    It has been shaped by almost 2,000 years of Christianity and takes a lot of Christian ideas (like all people have innate worth, like helping the poor is good, etc.) for granted.

    I’m consistently amazed at your optimism at the state of our culture.
     
    It's certainly eroding and that is disturbing, but objectively speaking we are living in a very different society than those of pagan Rome, Mexico, etc.
  743. @LatW
    @Beckow


    A thoughtful response, thanks.
     
    Thanks, Beckow, I appreciate your intellect, even if I may not agree with you in all cases. Nobody is happy with the war, it's probably a once in a 300 years type of nightmare. Definitely a historic development of massive proportions.

    Fandom is a form of fashion – and as we all know, any fashion has an average longevity of around three years.
     
    True, there is an element of moment in time, it could pass, and support could decline somewhat. What matters is the relationships that were formed that weren't there previously - the volunteer networks, political communication, consolidation of the West, the changed perceptions.

    It is as likely that Ukies will be cursed for their intransigence and lowered EU econ. standards.
     
    Of course, there is an economic burden. Why blame only Ukraine for that? Btw, it looks like inflation was bound to happen anyway, there was too much QE. Wouldn't you at least agree with that? Of course, the war makes it much worse. It's very unfortunate. Also, even if Ukraine is supported now, with time Ukraine will have to figure out how to start making money again.

    How is the Russian world shrinking if it has just grown with acquisitions in Ukraine?
     
    The territorial gains, while very real, are still fragile. Further mobilization will be required to hold them down and to create a buffer. They have managed to take some of the population (including by kidnapping children). So I would agree that they do have some considerable gains (but significant losses as well). If we look at the population in the East, it has been reduced. Those who fled West, into Central and Western parts of Ukraine, their children will eventually become Ukrainian speaking. Those who fled into the EU will speak Ukrainian / Russian, and their children will speak host languages as well, and there is a risk of assimilation. They definitely will not be Russian or Russian speaking in the future (on the contrary, they will hold in their memory the idea of Russia as the violator of their lives). Land is good to have but the Russians have squandered a lot of Russophone population. Then again, if this population are Russophone Ukrainians who hate Russians anyway, then it may not be worth it for them, on the contrary, they would want to eliminate them. I heard that the Russians want to set up a large number of concentration camps in East Ukraine. This is actually very significant with the future in mind, since essentially we will be living next door to that (if they succeed). If the French and Germans will ignore that, I won't speak to them anymore. Think about what this means for human rights.

    The very real plans for Nato in Ukraine have already been crushed, another massive defeat for Washington.
     
    We are talking about two different things. NATO as a political organization? Yes, it might be that the eventual membership is still questionable (but I'm not sure if it is entirely out of the question long term). But the de facto situation is that Ukraine has become a full on ally of the West. It is still an unstable situation, of course. But Ukrainians have a considerable amount of control. Of course, I'm not denying that Ukraine's losses have been immense.

    E,g. Intermarium with Odessa that can be easily blockaded is not much of a mini-empire.
     
    It is not an ideal situation and it would have to be strengthened, but it is not nothing. It is still quite a large chunk of land and resources.

    Or Lviv with all those Kiev-Kharkiv refugees will still be a poor city shedding more able people to the West – another Kishinev, or if you prefer Sophia. Those are not prosperous places.
     
    They may be shedding people, but those are generally not small places. Lviv and Kyiv have quite a bit of potential. In my book, they don't have to be super prosperous (although they could be more prosperous than before), what is important is that they retain the Ukrainian culture. And are amicable to Poland, et al. Which will be the case long term.

    We don’t know how the war will go, we only know the disposition of forces.
     
    There are some unknowns still, such as the state of the Russian troops who are arriving now, the real state of the Wagner company, the ideas that the Ukrainian General Staff are working on as to the next steps (this is a military secret and one can only model possible scenarios).

    a nuclear war is about 10-%
     
    I'm not sure it's that high.

    general Pavel is a former commie who studied in Moscow, and “president” of Czechia is a ceremonial position
     
    Many wanted to study in Moscow back in those days. It looks like he joined the Communist party in 1985, which is late (not good, of course), but not that late. Things moved very fast back then and 1985 was not 1989. Yes, it's not great, but one had to join the party to have a career. It looks like he comes from a military family, I don't see how he could've had a military career beyond a certain very low level without joining the party. This is just for career purposes. But I may be wrong. And, no, it is not great, but it's been over 30 years now.. we need to think about how to leave this all behind (even if we learn lessons from it and remain vigilant).

    As to the ceremonial position, it really depends on how he will carry himself. If he is charismatic with novel ideas, awesome, he could have impact. If he is more mellow and serves a unifying role, then that's good, too. I don't know much about him but he has made some reasonable, realistic remarks. There is some realistic language that I like about NATO having become too much of a "political" organization:

    "NATO over the years has become probably too politically correct in our own way that we were circling around the problems without being able to identify true nature. I was facing that situation even in a military committee when I asked my colleagues to come back to the basics and speak as soldiers, not as politicians or diplomats. At least around the table so that we understand each other."

    Replies: @S, @Beckow

    Thanks, Beckow, I appreciate your intellect, even if I may not agree with you in all cases. Nobody is happy with the war, it’s probably a once in a 300 years type of nightmare. Definitely a historic development of massive proportions.

    An appropriate place to interject as any I suppose, LatW (stands for Latvian Woman from what I understand), and I suspect I represent many of the male posters here in my viewpoint, though I disagree vehemently with your view in regards to the wisdom of the war in Ukraine, I greatly respect your intellect and am quite appreciative of your posts at this site.

    You are a real credit to the Latvian people as a whole and Latvian womanhood in particular. [Nothing you have to respond to naturally, but, with your excellent command of the English language and knowledge of US history and politics, I have to wonder if you had been raised in the United States.]

    • Replies: @LatW
    @S


    I suspect I represent many of the male posters here in my viewpoint, though I disagree vehemently with your view in regards to the wisdom of the war in Ukraine, I greatly respect your intellect and am quite appreciative of your posts at this site.
     
    Haha, I'm not sure this represents other posters here, but thank you - you are very kind. I enjoy your comments, too (even if I haven't read the books you reference, I should). We do agree on other important topics (besides Ukraine). And my brainpower is but a tiny fraction of that of the other posters here.


    You are a real credit to the Latvian people as a whole and Latvian womanhood in particular.
     
    You are too kind. There are many other Latvian women who are more graceful and selfless than I (granted, they are not all nationalists, as I enjoy right wing contrarian content maybe a little too much, it's my one weakness). Apologies if I sound too forceful sometimes (I'm actually much less so in real life).

    I have to wonder if you had been raised in the United States.
     
    No, but I know the country quite well (I have lived in two very different states).

    Replies: @S

  744. @Dmitry
    @AP


    Translation: not following the personal interpretation of the New Testament by the atheist Dmitry.

     

    You use the theory of Nietzsche's "Anti-Christ", to justify saying the opposite of the New Testament, is "Christianity". At least, it's creative to see, but I feel like you were just copying parts from my posts.

    So now you are promoting the anti-Christian values, but when I point that to you they are anti-Christian, you justified it by saying "we are now in a Christian society so the values should be different than in New Testament" You said it in your last post to me. https://www.unz.com/akarlin/open-thread-207/#comment-5784335

    It's like watching someone eat chocolate and saying "I'm not eating chocolate". Then they start eating chocolate again. Better accept when you are eating chocolate.


    personal interpretation of the New Testament by the atheist Dmitry.
     
    Who said anything about personal interpretation of the New Testament?

    Every time you start talking about "personal interpretation" against Church interpretation, and you say the other person is using "personal interpretation". This isn't to accept Catholic interpretation is better than personal interpretation.

    But the boring thing, I am writing the Catholic Church interpretation. You don't seem to know Catholic interpretation, you are not interested in learning, and reject when it is posted. It's a waste of time to write with someone who has no interest in a topic, but has "unusual" ways of defending their pride. I would prefer to talk to someone with some knowledge of Catholic interpretation, rather than someone who is fully unknowledgeable. You don't know such basic things like eschatology.

    I already posted from the Catechism of the Catholic Church enough times that everyone here is bored from my posts. From your posts, it seem you are resistant to it, which is fine. But why incorrectly label your views which are so different than the text.


    atheist Dmitry
     
    Where is this new label from?

    Does this mean that the compassionate people in Christendom have difficulty being really moral because in this society they benefit from being
     
    You need to read the post https://www.unz.com/akarlin/open-thread-207/#comment-5784878 again.

    "If the society is oppressing people like this, then their visibility is reduced. But the possibility for heroes can increase in some examples. "


    Not visible but can be inferred, though not always.

     

    You cut the part of the quote where it says something you don't like - "which is not something visible from external behavior. This is again the same as in Iron Age texts like “Book of Job”, where the interest of God is to see the interior quality of the person." And that's a large part of the teaching, where in church interpretation or not.

    But it would be difficult to match with the - "I am better than that person, I am better than another person", "This person is bad, while I am good".

    Replies: @AP

    So now you are promoting the anti-Christian values

    The fact that the devout Christians agree that I am mostly right means that you are mistaken again.

    but when I point that to you they are anti-Christian, you justified it by saying “we are now in a Christian society so the values should be different than in New Testament”

    You have refused to address several of my responses. Maybe this time you will try?

    You falsely claimed I indicated that we live in the time of the Second Coming. I corrected you by stating that instead we live in a Christian society, so Christ’s criticisms of the rich are not quite as applicable in this society as they were in the times of the New Testament, because Christendom’s rich are not the same kind of rich of Christ’s time and place.

    Here is a Catholic source stating this obvious fact, that you have chosen to ignore:

    https://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=2944

    In order to understand the severe tone in which the Fathers sometimes speak of riches and of its obligations, we must bear in mind that the social world in which they lived was greatly different from our own. The wonderful industrial developments that have taken place in modern times have led to an enormous production of wealth, the possession of which by private individuals rests on honorable titles. In the days of the Roman Empire, the acquisition of wealth was but too frequently secured by the spoliation of conquered lands, by extortionate tax collecting, by excessive usury, by the exploiting of defenseless widows and orphans, and by other dubious means. The result was that, in the popular mind, a certain stigma attached to the possession of great wealth. It was a popular saying, “the rich man is either an unjust man or the heir of one (dives iniquus aut iniqui heres).”

    There was then a proportionately larger number of unfortunate individuals, reduced to dire straits through illness and lack of industrial employment, who were dependent for the bare necessities of life on the charity of more favored persons, and on the ministrations of the clergy of the local churches, each of which maintained by voluntary contributions a treasury for the poor. There did not then flourish the great variety of asylums, hospitals, bureaus of assistance, which are the glorious flowering in medieval and modern times of the spirit of Christian charity.

    And so, in earlier times, the duty of aiding the poor bore more directly and more urgently on the wealthy individual.

    :::::::::::

    This is what I have been saying, which is what the Church teaches. Will you ignore it as usual?

    Who said anything about personal interpretation of the New Testament?

    It is your personal interpretation, in contradiction to the teaching of the Church.

    But the boring thing, I am writing the Catholic Church interpretation

    A false statement.

    You don’t seem to know Catholic interpretation, you are not interested in learning, and reject when it is posted.

    I correct your misinterpretations, as above, and you ignore that.

    I already posted from the Catechism of the Catholic Church

    Your concerns were addressed. For example you posted this:

    https://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P2O.HTM

    “Our Lord warns us that we shall be separated from him if we fail to meet the serious needs of the poor and the little ones who are his brethren”

    While I argue that it is necessary to save the poor by sending them to rehabilitation facilities, hospitals or in the last case (if they are hurting themselves or others through crime) my interlocutor proposed that they be left on the streets because they are like ancient Saints, and you compare intervention to Stalinism!

    atheist Dmitry

    Where is this new label from?

    You are an atheist, no? Didn’t you say that once? I will retract my statement if I am wrong, or if you have changed since then.

    “Not visible but can be inferred, though not always.”

    You cut the part of the quote where it says something you don’t like – “which is not something visible from external behavior. This is again the same as in Iron Age texts like “Book of Job”, where the interest of God is to see the interior quality of the person.”

    This doesn’t contradict “can be inferred, though not always.”

    But it would be difficult to match with the – “I am better than that person, I am better than another person”, “This person is bad, while I am good”.

    One cannot be 100% certain, but there are people who can likely be considered worse than others.

  745. @Barbarossa
    @AP


    we do live in a Christian society
     
    We do?!? Do you live in some insular Catholic commune in the deep wilds of Massachusetts or something? I'm consistently amazed at your optimism at the state of our culture.

    Personally, I would say that it's hard to say that anything past the Enlightenment and certainly past the Industrial Age could lay any claim to being called a Christian society. Christian values have certainly hung around in a vestigial way, but these are slowly consumed and find their inversion in political Woke liberalism.

    Replies: @AP

    we do live in a Christian society

    We do?!?

    It has been shaped by almost 2,000 years of Christianity and takes a lot of Christian ideas (like all people have innate worth, like helping the poor is good, etc.) for granted.

    I’m consistently amazed at your optimism at the state of our culture.

    It’s certainly eroding and that is disturbing, but objectively speaking we are living in a very different society than those of pagan Rome, Mexico, etc.

  746. @A123
    @QCIC


    I agree these issues are important and are definitely and intentionally being used to undermine Christian+Enlightenment values in Europe. I don’t think they are central to the Ukrainian mess.

    They might be central to the Syrian mess.
     
    Certainly Syria informed Ukraine.

    Take it away and think about it for a bit.

    • There are things required to win.
    • These things were not done.

    Over ambition and lack of preparedness is a powerful negative force. Russia's woeful under performance, especially in the early week, fits this mold. They were trying to win and logistically horked themselves with poor execution.

    However, "morons + bad luck" can only reach so far. Can anyone explain how the Ukie Maximalist concept of victory ever made sense? Taking back Crimea by force? Umm.... Unrealistic and vastly exceeding the threshold of crazy has a near 100% chance of an internal meltdown.

    You couldn't convince Churchill to give a Zelensky speech. They are that wild.

    PEACE 😇

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @QCIC

    You couldn’t convince Churchill to give a Zelensky speech. They are that wild.

    Why not give full vent to your own wild inclinations, kremlinstoogeA123? The Wagner group has a new tailor made program just for guys of your appeasing ilk, that will allow you to preach your zany brand of Christianity to the front line troops. Prigoshin apparently has drained all of the local prisons and mental wards of new soldier material and needs guys like you in America to pick up the slack…

    Uncle Vanya needs you, kremlinstoogeA123! Perhaps as a Russian military Chaplain?

  747. @A123
    @Dmitry

    I was attempting to watch the 2023 Dakar rally in Saudi Arabia.... Guess what happened...

     
    https://youtu.be/3bcxzzzFty4
     

    PEACE 😇



    I am placing it below MORE, but my suspicion is that Yahya will find the excessive focus on dates to be overblown by media that need an interest story.

    It is like going to the American South and covering "noodling catfish" as a cultural norm.

    https://youtu.be/MM3564qCFuQ

    Replies: @QCIC

    I support Hannah and am offended by any conflation with dates or Arabians.

    • LOL: A123
  748. @AP
    @AnonfromTN


    If the Ukrainian people “chose to fight”, why did the regime have to resort to forced mobilization
     
    You realize that choices reflect majority not universal support.

    Replies: @QCIC

    Most readers recognize that the videos of officially sanctioned Ukrainian thugs press ganging innocent men undermine your noble ‘Azovian’ perspective. This is what happens when people start an avoidable war.

    Great job, morons.

    • Replies: @AP
    @QCIC

    Some (but not all) of those videos are fake.

    At any rate, even if a war enjoys majority support it does not mean that it enjoys universal support. The war is still popular in Russia, yet there are plenty of videos of Russians getting grabbed and forced into the military.

    There were mass arrests of Americans for draft dodging during World War II, which was popular in the USA:

    From just one night:

    https://blogs.shu.edu/ww2-0/1943/05/16/fbi-cracks-down-on-draft-dodgers-638-arrested/

  749. @A123
    @QCIC


    I agree these issues are important and are definitely and intentionally being used to undermine Christian+Enlightenment values in Europe. I don’t think they are central to the Ukrainian mess.

    They might be central to the Syrian mess.
     
    Certainly Syria informed Ukraine.

    Take it away and think about it for a bit.

    • There are things required to win.
    • These things were not done.

    Over ambition and lack of preparedness is a powerful negative force. Russia's woeful under performance, especially in the early week, fits this mold. They were trying to win and logistically horked themselves with poor execution.

    However, "morons + bad luck" can only reach so far. Can anyone explain how the Ukie Maximalist concept of victory ever made sense? Taking back Crimea by force? Umm.... Unrealistic and vastly exceeding the threshold of crazy has a near 100% chance of an internal meltdown.

    You couldn't convince Churchill to give a Zelensky speech. They are that wild.

    PEACE 😇

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @QCIC

    I think the Russian trajectory in the SMO is understandable. Their hand was forced and they had to work out some major kinks. Armchair warriors and news bots can’t follow what they are doing, but I doubt much of this is surprising to descendants of the Soviet military.

    I have come to suspect they will level the entire Ukraine if they believe this is required for their survival.

    The details are beyond my ken and I don’t like the implications, but I suspect you need to factor in Talmudic teachings to really understand the Ukraine situation. I don’t think this piece of the map is so important to “Caucasians” from the USA or Western Europe, not enough to dance with nuclear war. So other factors are in play.

  750. @S
    @LatW


    Thanks, Beckow, I appreciate your intellect, even if I may not agree with you in all cases. Nobody is happy with the war, it’s probably a once in a 300 years type of nightmare. Definitely a historic development of massive proportions.
     
    An appropriate place to interject as any I suppose, LatW (stands for Latvian Woman from what I understand), and I suspect I represent many of the male posters here in my viewpoint, though I disagree vehemently with your view in regards to the wisdom of the war in Ukraine, I greatly respect your intellect and am quite appreciative of your posts at this site.

    You are a real credit to the Latvian people as a whole and Latvian womanhood in particular. [Nothing you have to respond to naturally, but, with your excellent command of the English language and knowledge of US history and politics, I have to wonder if you had been raised in the United States.]

    Replies: @LatW

    I suspect I represent many of the male posters here in my viewpoint, though I disagree vehemently with your view in regards to the wisdom of the war in Ukraine, I greatly respect your intellect and am quite appreciative of your posts at this site.

    Haha, I’m not sure this represents other posters here, but thank you – you are very kind. I enjoy your comments, too (even if I haven’t read the books you reference, I should). We do agree on other important topics (besides Ukraine). And my brainpower is but a tiny fraction of that of the other posters here.

    [MORE]

    You are a real credit to the Latvian people as a whole and Latvian womanhood in particular.

    You are too kind. There are many other Latvian women who are more graceful and selfless than I (granted, they are not all nationalists, as I enjoy right wing contrarian content maybe a little too much, it’s my one weakness). Apologies if I sound too forceful sometimes (I’m actually much less so in real life).

    I have to wonder if you had been raised in the United States.

    No, but I know the country quite well (I have lived in two very different states).

    • Replies: @S
    @LatW


    There are many other Latvian women who are more graceful and selfless than I (granted, they are not all nationalists, as I enjoy right wing contrarian content maybe a little too much, it’s my one weakness).
     
    And modest besides, perhaps too much so...

    Apologies if I sound too forceful sometimes (I’m actually much less so in real life).
     
    Not at all. I would that there be many more of your mettle and of the feminine persuasion at these sites. But, alas...

    No, but I know the country quite well (I have lived in two very different states).

     

    I just knew there had to be a US connection of some type in there. I'm psychic that way you know. :-D

    Hopefully, we will be able to continue to enjoy your high quality posts at this site for a long time yet.

    And, speaking of high quality posts, haven't seen Bashi posting for a few days now. I hope he's doing okay and returns soon.
  751. @LatW
    @Dmitry


    Anything is possible, but I’m pretty sure AnonfromTN is not Putin, just another passive observer, like all of us, with no responsibility for the events of politics.
     
    Of course. It's just unseemly when even countries such as Moldova are forcibly being dragged into this, when everyone knows that in case of Russia's takeover of Ukraine (no matter how unrealistic it may seem now), the next targets would be Moldova and Georgia. It's like these countries are sitting there, doing literally nothing, but Russia still pretends like she has the right to harass them. You say that he is just an observer but the problem is that both the Kremlin and the bulk of the Russian population believes this. Frankly it looks like someone is just walking around the neighborhood looking to pester others because they have some made up insecurities.

    Why pull up Moldova and even Romania when these countries do not even border Russia (except the Transnestr which is occupied and doesn't count)? Why stir things up knowing how quickly these types of conflicts can spread?


    Remember when Utu was angry against German Reader, like he was the Chancellor of Germany.
     
    Well, not only that, utu made some really nasty personal remarks at poor German-Reader, that was frankly brutal. But you're right, some of us take these things too seriously here. LOL
    But I do like this idea of yours of an "Online UN roundtable", it's hilarious! You could be the attache for the Russo-Jewish diaspora. Or should we send you in as an inspector to check the Polish media law?

    Do you think it’s unplanned?
     
    The US must've known at least a month ahead that there would be an invasion. Maybe even in December 2021. But the US could not plan how the first days or weeks of it would go.

    It could be unrealistic to say (assuming more planning than America’s politicians can attain), but it looks like it could the famous “slow cook frog”.
     
    Well, that's exactly what I posted above, that they are boiling the frog slowly. They have to provide these weapons packages in increments to avert a rapid escalation, to let everyone adjust. Look how far we have gotten already - from Stingers to a whole parade of tanks. Yes, that's why it's believable that they could provide air support eventually.

    It’s already a lot of medium weapons, including the first infantry fighting vehicle to Ukraine. Although still the older stock from the army storage. It’s like steady, slow and methodical increase in the type of the weapons, which after 11 months is so much of a significant category change.
     
    Right, when you provide these infantry fighting vehicles, you have to provide tanks because these vehicles are supposed to work together with tanks, you create an offensive triad - tanks, infantry vehicles and air support (for example, combat helicopters such as Apache, which are incredibly impressive and expensive). If you are providing one of these components, it means the rest should follow.

    Retrospectively, doesn’t this look like they are organized?
     
    Yes, it is well organized now and I would even say highly organized given the differences among countries and how they're able to consolidate the position and work together within a large coalition. The public is also supportive.

    But my point was more along the lines that they may not have known how the first weeks/months of the invasion would go. Ukraine should've prepared better - they could've produced way more Stugna and Korsar, purchased other things potentially. Possibly produced a long or middle range missile. But I don't want to blame Ukraine, they have suffered too much.

    Btw, I noticed you mentioned Nietzsche's "Anti-Christ" in a couple of your posts. Not to delve into a religious discussion, I just wanted to note that Nietzsche criticized Christian morality not just for being born out of ressentiment, as he put it, but for basically moving the center of gravity from life to afterlife, and when he defined the value of life, he didn't necessarily mean materialism, but celebrating the exuberance of life and the will to power (essentially the will to thrive and assert oneself). He defined it as "lying away from reality", and focusing on that which does not exist, is what he defined as nihilism.

    The will to power could include these "bourgeoisie values" that you guys were arguing about but it is definitely not reduced to them - it is something much higher and more intense, something very subjective and individualistic and less normative.

    He also criticized compassion because it apparently takes away from one's spiritual vigor, but I don't think today's Christians who try to take care of the unlucky members of society in an institutional manner lack compassion - no, they are compassionate, but they approach this matter in a rational way. They are not Nietzschean at all - since according to his outlook, it is better to not engage in compassion at all. Ok, he's not as monstrous as this sounds, you have to delve deeper to find the good and the beautiful in his philosophy.

    Replies: @Dmitry, @Mikel

    he is just an observer but the problem Russian population believes this.

    About AnoninTN, if I remember, he is from Ukraine, from Lvov. Also Here Be Dragon was from Ukraine, but then he was living in Poland. So, our idiosyncratic forum – the users of the forum supporting the invasion, are those users from Ukraine (except Beckow is from Czechoslovakia).

    Why pull up Moldova

    Well, Moldova was part of the USSR. They supplied everyone with cognac. Maybe there could be the alcoholic version of the conspiracy theory “they want to invade Iraq for oil”.

    “Online UN roundtable”, it’s hilarious! You could be the attache for the Russo-Jewish

    I guess this job means arguing to support Prigozhin and Solovyov. Maybe I can be Costa Rica.

    provide these infantry fighting vehicles, you have to provide tanks because these vehicles

    It’s already a significant escalation, although perhaps it will be many months before they will be fighting in the war.

    In the Second World War, they would have probably called these “light tanks”. And they have nightvision optics, very long-range anti-tank missiles etc.

    that they are boiling the frog slowly. They have to provide these weapons packages in increments to avert a rapid escalation, to let everyone adjust

    And they change the discussion to the next weapon, so Biden says “no don’t worry we wouldn’t give Ukraine those weapons”. Then six months later it will be the next weapon, slowly building the parts of an army. I remember in the summer it was talking about giving 155mm howitzers (artillery) to Ukraine.

    monstrous as this sounds, you have to delve deeper to find the good and the beautiful in his philosophy

    Sure, of course these are great German writers, which are famous for a reason.

    • Replies: @AP
    @Dmitry


    About AnoninTN, if I remember, he is from Ukraine, from Lvov. Also Here Be Dragon was from Ukraine, but then he was living in Poland. So, our idiosyncratic forum – the users of the forum supporting the invasion, are those users from Ukraine
     
    AnoninTN was born in Lviv (to non-native carpetbaggers, it seems) but left when he was 5 years old and grew up in Donbas. He is of partial Ukrainian descent.

    Here Be Dragon is from Ukraine but has no Ukrainian roots and is a Russian-speaker of Russian, Jewish and Romanian descent. Essentially, a Homo Sovieticus.

    Their opinions (particularly HBD) towards Ukraine are comparable to that of an ethnic German from Poland or Czechoslovakia about the German invasion of those countries.

    The only Ukrainian from Ukraine posting here was angry at me and Mr. Hack for not hating Russians enough.

    Replies: @Yahya, @Mr. Hack, @songbird

    , @LatW
    @Dmitry


    About AnoninTN, if I remember, he is from Ukraine, from Lvov. Also Here Be Dragon was from Ukraine
     
    They are both representatives of the so called "Russian world" and both supporters of Kremlin's policies, including looking for excuses for what is currently going on. And you know this very well.

    Moldova supplied everyone with cognac. Maybe there could be the alcoholic version of the conspiracy theory “they want to invade Iraq for oil”.
     
    That's right. They could just go there and get drunk on Moldovan wine. From what I vaguely recall, there were also extraordinarily sweet pears that were grown in Moldova. In real contrast to our sour Northern European cherries - I heard their chereshnya is also much fuller and sweeter. So I think we have a case here.

    Maybe I can be Costa Rica.
     
    Well, at this point anything beats being back in Matushka and getting mobilized to be sent to get himars'ed. So Costa Rica it is! :) You could go birdwatching and find the most amazing, colorful parrots there and forget about the rest of the world. :)

    [Bradley's] would have probably called these “light tanks”. And they have nightvision optics, very long-range anti-tank missiles etc.
     
    Yes, they are like "half tanks" (and they look so damn cool). The main goal is to protect the soldier. I hope the Ukrainians can handle their maintenance (I'm sure they can, knowing them).

    I heard some Swedish tank even has temperature control inside of it, insane.

    Replies: @Dmitry

  752. @Barbarossa
    @Yahya

    Finally, an update on "War and Peace" by Bondarchuk! We finished the first part tonight (we'll have to do it in pieces since I believe it around 7+ hours long, and it is quite magnificent so far. Even with subtitles it is extremely immersive despite, or perhaps because of, the leisurely pacing. Though to be honest, I never find subtitles any real distraction. My wife is also really enjoying it. Thanks again for recommending it. I passed on the recommendation to a Russian friend of mine who happen to be currently reading War and Peace, so it's all quite apropos.

    I'll give a full reaction once I get done with the entire thing.

    The kids actually enjoyed it, or at least were interested enough to sit through it so far. My 11 year old was the most enthusiastic, exclaiming that "the acting was so good, it's like real life! How do they do that?!" My 14 year old's main take-away was that she's still not sure she knows what is going on, but 14 year olds are already jaded and weary of life to an extent, so I think she must think it's okay. My 3 year old used as an excuse to snuggle but would occasionally parrot random Russian dialog he thought sounded funny. He perked up a bit more for the battles. My 5 year old knowingly proclaimed that it's both a princess movie and a fighting movie (which is technically pretty accurate). My 8 year old proclaimed it "good", without further elaboration. We'll see if they make it through the whole thing, but it's a moderate success so far.



    I passed along my newest of the articles that I write for the local paper via email. If you would like to keep getting them I can keep you on the email list but if you feel that you don't need another damnable bloviator jamming up your inbox with opinions, then feel free to let me know and I'll take you off. No hard feelings at all either way, and I hope I haven't been too presumptuous sending the one out unsolicited.

    Replies: @Yahya

    I passed along my newest of the articles that I write for the local paper via email. If you would like to keep getting them I can keep you on the email list

    I checked my inbox and spam; and didn’t find the email. Can you please re-send? I read one article you posted a while back (the Irish satire); was interested to read more but your name on the header doesn’t link to a comprehensive page of your articles.

    Even with subtitles it is extremely immersive despite, or perhaps because of, the leisurely pacing.

    War & Peace is one of the few movies where slow pacing was both appropriate and conducive to enhancing the viewers cinematic experience. There have been a few others like Space Odyessy, Lawrence of Arabia, or The Two Popes; but these are far and few in between. My beef with this technique is not that I dislike slow pacing; but that certain pretentious eurotrash directors seem to deliberately employ the snail’s pace to make their movie seem more sophisticated than it is. They are blackmailing critics and viewers into rating the film highly (despite not liking it) by subliminaly threatening them with looking unsophisticated if they don’t. It is this emotional blackmail that makes me despise the eurotrash director; especially the French ones who leverage their nation’s prestige to produce garbage which everyone hates to watch; but is nonetheless praised through the roof by cowardly critics and gullible film students.

    But War & Peace really is a masterpiece of a movie. Everything about it; the plot, characters, casting, cinematography, dialogue etc. is of the highest degree of excellence. If the world was just; it would’ve been placed in the Sight & Sound list of top 100 movies of all-time. But alas; the critics choose to worship at the alter of Goddard, Bergman and Fellini. I think the main reason why War & Peace succeeds so well is because; despite Bondarchuck’s high-brow inclinations; he was given lavish funding by the Soviet government and in turn paid more attention to the entertainment factor in order to reach a wider audience and give the state a return on investment. Nothing is more magnificent than a movie that is at once entertaining and intelligent. And the Soviet Union deserves credit for funding a blockbuster that maintained concern for artistic value.

    I’ve watched another of Bondarchuck’s movies called My Uncle Vanya; based on a Chekhov play; and while it was intelligent and sophisticated (it could hardly be otherwise; given the author); it failed to entertain and was thus resigned to obscurity; only to be watched by people like me, who may be regarded as an esoteric sect. This is the problem with Soviet and Eastern European movies in the general; they’re not stupid, certainly far more intelligent than the average Hollywood movie; but they fail at the basic function of keeping viewers engaged. It’s no wonder hardly anyone outside Eastern Europe watches any of that stuff. Again; the directors coming out of Anglo-America do a better job at walking the fine line between entertainment and sophistication; and that’s why they achieve persistent fame, accolades and viewership.

    • Replies: @Emil Nikola Richard
    @Yahya

    > But War & Peace really is a masterpiece of a movie. Everything about it; the plot, characters, casting, cinematography, dialogue etc. is of the highest degree of excellence.

    No. They practically omitted Maria. Maria and not Natasha is the heroine of the novel. The BBC mini series is superior on this one axis which is as important as any other.

    Still it's a lot better than just about any other movie. I wonder how many horses were sacrificed.

    Replies: @Yahya, @Barbarossa

    , @Yevardian
    @Yahya


    Goddard, Bergman
     
    Mentioning junk like Goddard in the same sentence or paragraph as the god Bergman is extremely unfair. I'm not much of a fan of Fellini (especially his late films) outside of his one masterpiece La Dolce Vita, but again, not fair to put him in the same punching bag as Goddard or some other of the most insufferable New Wave directors, like Resnais.
    Anyhow, it might interest you to know that Bergman strongly disliked Goddard and most of the French New Wave (and Buñuel) as well.

    My beef with this technique is not that I dislike slow pacing; but that certain pretentious eurotrash directors seem to deliberately employ the snail’s pace to make their movie seem more sophisticated than it is.
     
    I wonder what you'd think of Antonioni, he was notoriously divisive of audiences for this, but I think he employed it very well, until his films started entering the territory of self-parody, as Tarkovsky's last two features did.

    Sure, some directors exploit the usage of glacial pace to impart to their films a bogus profundity (Theo Angelopoulos, Lars Von Trier come to mind), but don't forget it's also a matter of personal taste. Since you get annoyed at relatively harmless posters like songbird, your constant refrain of 'Eurotrash' is a bit hypocritical. I don't think you'd like it if people referred to.. (actually, I don't know any Arab directors offhand) as a 'dirty Arab' or such.


    This is the problem with Soviet and Eastern European movies in the general; they’re not stupid, certainly far more intelligent than the average Hollywood movie; but they fail at the basic function of keeping viewers engaged.
     
    Funny that you'd say that, because the USSR and the Eastern Bloc in general mandated a policy of 'Socialist Realism', whose theory purposely eschewed symbolism or 'pretentiousness' generally in their film industry until the late 1980s (with a thaw in early the 70s).

    I'd still highly recommend the Soviet coming-of-age films 'Courier', 'I Am Twenty' and 'Scarecrow' and if you haven't seen them already, all of those show the USSR could make intelligent and entertaining youth films as good as any from the USA when they wanted.

    The more recent 'The Return' by Zvyagintsev is another great film about childhood by Zvyagintsev, before he just started entering the territory of misery-porn (and inadvertently delighting critics of Russia, though I don't think that's his intention) with 'Leviathan'.

    Replies: @Yahya, @AP

  753. @AP
    @HeavilyMarbledSteak

    So you claim to know more about Judaism than do devout and practicing Orthodox Jews, more about Christianity than do actual Christians, even to know more about Sikhism than do actual Sikhs. Your pride and arrogance are on an epic scale, but is typical of Modern people.

    Replies: @HeavilyMarbledSteak

    If everyone simply listened to consensus and authority, no religion would have ever gotten off the ground.

    • Replies: @AP
    @HeavilyMarbledSteak

    This comment implies that Christianity is no better or no more valid than the religions that it rebelled against and thus rebellion against that consensus and authority is equivalent to rebellion against Christian consensus and authority.

    As a Christian - destroying and overthrowing pagan authority and power was good, but with respect to Christian authority and power the appropriate approach is ongoing vigilance and improvement (as we ought to do on ourselves personally) rather than destruction and overthrow.

    Replies: @HeavilyMarbledSteak

  754. @Mr. Hack
    @HeavilyMarbledSteak

    Not all that long ago, I visited a large scale conference of the Baha'i faith. The reason being was that they offered the participants a great opportunity to listen to a concert of two of my favorite guitarists, Strunz and Farrah - for free mind you. The latter it appears is a practitioner of their faith. Anyway, I can say that it was an interesting experience (the concert more than anything else. :-) ). It was during this time period that I first seemed to notice some similarities between the two faith systems, even thought that they might consider merging in order to be able to attract more adherents and increase their following. I can't remember now, exactly why I thought that the two faith systems were similar, but it transcended both their abilities to build aesthetically interesting temples of worship. Perhaps a smidge of Gurdjieffism could be added on, and a truly attractive new age pantheistic faith could emerge? :-)

    Like DBH, I'm ultimately very content to continue my adherence to Jesus Christ within the framework of the Orthodox faith.

    Replies: @HeavilyMarbledSteak

    Like DBH, I’m ultimately very content to continue my adherence to Jesus Christ within the framework of the Orthodox faith.

    As you should. It is a great faith that I learn a lot from.

    I’m also a fan of the Bahai faith. I like their saying that every religion deserved to be the world religion had it remained true to it’s principles.

    They seem to believe that religions arise but then get corrupted, and God sends a new messenger. They seem to think their own faith isn’t inherently superior but only the latest messenger from God.

    I like that, and think it’s largely true.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @HeavilyMarbledSteak


    As you should. It is a great faith that I learn a lot from.
     
    Not being the greatest embodiment of a Christian (I still feel that I haven't matured much beyond the first rung of the latter leading to theosis) I'm hesitant to criticize other faith systems, and indeed I was brought up to be very tolerant of those that practice other faiths. But I really do believe that Jesus Christ was a part and parcel of the Godhead, that places him at the apex of all other faith systems. He warned the world:

    For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
     
    Matthew 24.5

    His mission and place in the universe was unique. No other "new messengers" will be sent to replace his glory.

    Replies: @HeavilyMarbledSteak, @Sher Singh, @Another Polish Perspective

    , @AnonfromTN
    @HeavilyMarbledSteak


    I’m also a fan of the Bahai faith. I like their saying that every religion deserved to be the world religion had it remained true to it’s principles.
     
    As late Douglas Adams (of “Hitchhikers guide to the galaxy” fame) said, every religion will tell you that murder is sin and will kill you to prove its point. In contrast to Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, and even Buddhism, Bahai faith is not guilty of mass murder. It deserves a lot of respect for that.

    They seem to believe that religions arise but then get corrupted
     
    That’s certainly true. Human institutions get corrupted easily. Therefore, if there were some kind of God, s/he would have considered his/her Church the worst enemy deserving the most severe punishment.

    Replies: @Another Polish Perspective, @HeavilyMarbledSteak

  755. @Coconuts
    @HeavilyMarbledSteak


    I think that’s a rather tendentious presentation.
     
    Schmitt was a sharp thinker. He indicates the way in which the things on the left, while they sound great, aren't necessarily, and the things on the right side of the list have their place. I will try to briefly explain:

    You can see with the first opposition:


    Liberty, progress and reason vs. Feudalism, reaction and violence.
     
    Feudalism refers to inherited social status and power, but more broadly to any hereditary identity that isn't consciously chosen. Liberty to individual autonomy and conscious choice by the will. Progress ends up being a belief that indefinite augmentation of material growth and individual autonomy is an inevitability. Reason would be the belief that everything is rationally intelligible and the world can be reconstructed by universal rules to eliminate all conflict.

    Economics, technology and industry vs. The State, war and politics.
     
    The State here is the idea that humanity is divided into different political entities. Politics refers to the fact that when controversial decisions about the future of the community need to be taken, groups can divide into friend/enemy factions who struggle to impose their view. This can result in war.

    Following the older view of modernity, developments in industry, technology and commerce are ideally supposed to lead to the elimination of all these phenomena.


    Parliamentarianism vs. Dictatorship.
     
    This one relates to the idea that all controversial decisions can be settled by rational discussion leading to consensus, there being no need for a sovereign authority to impose a resolution or decision. Also that laws can be made to cover every eventuality, so no more sovereign decisions will be needed if exceptional circumstances arise.

    I think you start to see that modernity in these terms is more like an aspiration and inspiration, a certain vision, a bit like the kind of 'myth of Socialism' Georges Sorel talked about.


    In the end I’m not am either/or type guy, but a synthesist and a syncretist.
     
    It's a reasonable position to take.

    As for Sher Singh, his extreme literalist/factual interpretation of Sikhism...
     
    It could be due to the fact there are different 'paths in' to criticise modernity, depending on which aspect is being approached.

    Replies: @HeavilyMarbledSteak

    Lots of good things about modernity, but the overwhelming fact about modernity is it’s nihilism – that’s really the chief thing. Once we disentangle the sources of that and correct that mistake, we can assess the rest.

    And that’s bound up with the kind of over-literal factualism that I was criticizing.

    To be fair to Sher, there obviously is a military element to Sikhism – I believe directed against Muslims. But obviously Sikhism is not just about weapons worship.

  756. @Dmitry
    @Yahya


    Boston I was compelled to cook after finding that 95% of restaurants were mediocre..
    hicken in the US was uniformly
     
    You were living in Boston? There you can share memories with Songbird. If I recall, he is not too much fan of chickens either.

    Europeans would be allured by the exotic cuisine of the Near East

     

    I would think, more the opposite, because it's not so exotic. The more fashionable cuisine in Europe in the second half of the 20th century was probably Italy and Spain.

    Traditional peasants' Italian food is similar to Near Eastern food. But there has been oversaturation about "pasta and pizza" that is overfocused from the exported Italian food.

    So, today people are looking for more similar recipes from the Mediterranean. More traditional and less industrialized. Have you noticed some of the popular cooking YouTubers are Egyptians.


    they should look to Syria first, as they in my opinion have the best food in the region, closely followed by Turkey
     
    But I'd guess most of the population of Syria has been too poor to have access to adequate mixes of ingredients even before the war (2011) damaged their agriculture, so a significant part of the population live in refugee camps today.

    -

    By the way, what do you think about this connoisseurship for dates like in Saudi Arabia?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bnJcyszCmb8

    Replies: @A123, @Yahya

    If I recall, he is not too much fan of chickens either.

    Lol, he probably dislikes American chicken because it is an African-American favorite. Watermelon too, probably.

    You were living in Boston? There you can share memories with Songbird.

    I’ve mentioned it a few times over the years. Songbird and I briefly discussed the architecture of the beautiful McKim building in the Boston library. But of course he just had to insert a remark on how the “Chinese” and other “sassy” foreigners had ruined his experience of the library. So there’s no use in discussing anything really with that guy; too much race on the brain.

    But I’d guess most of the population of Syria has been too poor to have access

    That could be true; but I think for food you can do a lot with little. I was recently watching this video of a couple of Damascenes roaming around the city in 2018; and was quite surprised by how nice Damascus looked.

    One would think the war would’ve taken a toll on the city; but perhaps it’s localized in a few places. Or they may have rebuilt it quickly. I recall Tyler Cowen mentioning that reconstruction following war is far easier than building things from scratch. The knowledge is already there to capitalize; all that is needed is capital and stability.

    I’ve only visited Damascus once when I was 7 years old. I don’t remember much; but I do recall how spacious and beautiful it seemed; especially in comparison to Cairo, which is unbelievably chaotic and disappointingly ugly in many places. The Levant imo is one of the most beautiful natural landscapes in the world. It only takes a moderate level of urban development to make a place like Damascus or Jerusalem look aesthetically pleasing. In fact one could argue that anything beyond a moderate level would tend to ruin the charm and gravitas of these places.

    Just looking at photos of Jaffa/Yafo; it seems economically depressed in comparison to the bustling Tel Aviv behind it; but is incomparably beautiful:

    So perhaps economic development is not the highest good that economists would have us believe. I’d like to visit Israel/Palestine but there are some obstacles to my doing so. But if the social environment permits it one day; which places do you recommend visiting?

    By the way, what do you think about this connoisseurship for dates like in Saudi Arabia?

    Well dates are fundamentally tied to the image of Saudi Arabia; and rightfully so. In any house you visit there; the host will bring you a pile of dates along with Arabic or Turkish coffee. Saudis take great pride in their knowledge of dates and their point of origin. I personally prefer to drink a milkshake with dates and bananas rather than eat it.

    Saudi Arabia has a pretty unique national cuisine and a top-quality restaurant scene; definitely an interesting place to go if you are a foody. The restaurants there are staffed with a variety of foreign laborers from all over the world; India, Philippines, Indonesia, Syria, Egypt, Japan etc. so you get the authentic cooking styles from each of these nations. I think only UAE can rival the KSA in that respect. On the other hand, these restaurants are international; I can’t think of any actually that serve native Arabian cuisine; because most Saudis have servants to cook for them at home (or otherwise the stay-at-home wife). The best experience you’ll have there is to eat Kabsah with the Bedouins out in the desert. Just a wonderful vibe; but you can replicate the experience in Sharm El-Sheikh too with the Bedouins of Sinai.

    Saudi Arabia otherwise is a lame place to visit for tourism. It’s almost comical how little we have in history that is of interest to anyone but Saudis. When I was in Riyadh I visited a fortress that had served as the main base for King Abdulaziz, the founder of Saudi Arabia. There was literally two other Spanish tourists and no-one else. On the other hand; the government is putting an all-out effort to develop this place called Al-Ula in Northern Arabia to become a touristic destination; based on some evidence that Moses and other biblical characters had traversed there.

    This video narrated by Jeremey Irons seems to have gotten a good number of views (8M); so perhaps the gubmint will succeed in their efforts. But still there are obstacles to attracting foreigners; like a ban on alcohol and bikinis. So we’ll see.

    • Replies: @songbird
    @Yahya


    But of course he just had to insert a remark on how the “Chinese” and other “sassy” foreigners had ruined his experience of the library.
     
    Typically, you'd misread my tone. Actually, I said that I thought the Chinese tourists were especially appreciative of the beauty of the building. They've probably prevented the frescoes showing the city's original demographics from being painted over for the time being, but that may change, as Chinese students are drying up.

    BTW, antiracist Arabs are so rare. Next time, you come to Boston. I hope you stay in Roxbury, and volunteer in the public schools. Then you can fight the prejudices of the folks back home by telling them about your pleasant experiences. That is, if your feelings are genuine, and you are not just some vain, empty-signaler, parroting the regime values of the West because doing so makes you feel better than non-oil Arabs.

    But I shouldn't assume your thoughts. You have volunteered in black schools, right?

    Replies: @AnonfromTN, @Yahya

  757. @Mikel
    @HeavilyMarbledSteak


    When I travel out West I basically live out of my small RAV4
     
    It may not be as comfortable as the gorgeous van of the Youtube guy but I'm sure it's a luxury compared with the Seat 127 we used in the 80s to camp. We just folded the front seats back when it was time sleep and that was it.

    https://www.seat.com/content/dam/public/seat-website/company/news-and-events/company/seat-127/multimedia-gallery-01/from-the-seat-127-to-the-ibiza-01.jpg

    We were planning to upgrade to a Renault Nevada that we hoped would give us a long enough permanent sleeping space behind:

    https://s1.cdn.autoevolution.com/images/gallery/RENAULT-21-Nevada-5566_2.jpg

    But then life happened and the plan never materialized. As John Lennon masterfully put it, life is what happens while you're making plans for the future.

    I watched several videos of this funny guy of the van-camper. He seems to be more into computer games than nature but yes, those Idaho mountain views were very interesting. I think it looks like the Wasatch Back (eastern side of the range) and definitely drier than I expected. But I see the minimum temp last night in Stanley was -31F, quite colder than here. Another place I must visit as soon as I can.

    Replies: @HeavilyMarbledSteak

    Lol, yeah, definitely appreciate the Rav after thinking about you camping in that absurd thing 🙂 I’m sure it was fun though at the time.

    Minus 31 F – so cold! When I was there it was quite hot during the day, upper 80s, but deliciously chilly in the mornings like the low 50s. I love those chilly summer mornings.

    I’m sure there’s a ton of winter fun to be had near Stanley – enjoy.

  758. @HeavilyMarbledSteak
    @Mr. Hack


    Like DBH, I’m ultimately very content to continue my adherence to Jesus Christ within the framework of the Orthodox faith.
     
    As you should. It is a great faith that I learn a lot from.

    I'm also a fan of the Bahai faith. I like their saying that every religion deserved to be the world religion had it remained true to it's principles.

    They seem to believe that religions arise but then get corrupted, and God sends a new messenger. They seem to think their own faith isn't inherently superior but only the latest messenger from God.

    I like that, and think it's largely true.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @AnonfromTN

    As you should. It is a great faith that I learn a lot from.

    Not being the greatest embodiment of a Christian (I still feel that I haven’t matured much beyond the first rung of the latter leading to theosis) I’m hesitant to criticize other faith systems, and indeed I was brought up to be very tolerant of those that practice other faiths. But I really do believe that Jesus Christ was a part and parcel of the Godhead, that places him at the apex of all other faith systems. He warned the world:

    For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

    Matthew 24.5

    His mission and place in the universe was unique. No other “new messengers” will be sent to replace his glory.

    • Replies: @HeavilyMarbledSteak
    @Mr. Hack

    Sure, that sounds alright. There's a way of being Christian and making Jesus central to your faith, and thinking his role was unique, while also not just tolerating other religions but understanding them as also divine revelations that one can use to deepen one's understanding of Christianity.

    I'm not saying that's your position or that you must take up this position :) But if I was a Christian that's the kind of Christian I'd be.

    I agree that there is "something" about Jesus - he's a very compelling figure that will always fascinate us. And I definitely understand why in your faith he's irreplaceable.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    , @Sher Singh
    @Mr. Hack

    The Lord sent many & they burn; they directed people to themselves instead of the formless.
    This includes all of the abrahamic.

    , @Another Polish Perspective
    @Mr. Hack

    Matthew 24 is "The Little Apocalypse", or apocalypse inside gospels. It speaks about The End Times, so you must first determine whether The End Times are at hand to really treat it as a description of here and now. This in itself is eminently arduous task, especially as Christianity seems to be structured around expectations of the End, which already was to happen several times, around:
    1) 400 CE - The Fall of Rome as TEOTWAWKI, Arian Goths persecuting Nicaean Christians
    2) 1000-1300 Millenarism, Joachim da Fiore and Crusades (at least on the Catholic side of Christianity), Christians persecuting Christians - 4th crusade, the Great Schism
    3) 1600+ Luther as Antichrist, Protestantism and 30-Years War: certainly Christians persecuted Christians in the name of Christ
    4) 1917-1945 Communism & Nazism, David Star in Ghettos as Beast Mark
    5) Now? Well, the relative lack of religiosity, lack of any serious heresies and schisms would speak against it ("For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ.") But still there are some other disturbing signs, like "wars, rumours of wars", monkeypox etc.

    The task is arduous as per words of apocalypses people will not have much agency during the End Times: "power over Earth will be given to the Beast", "many will be deceived" etc - or maybe it is just us having a problem with God's omniscience... as we certainly do, being 4 times mistaken already

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

  759. @Dmitry
    @LatW


    he is just an observer but the problem Russian population believes this.
     
    About AnoninTN, if I remember, he is from Ukraine, from Lvov. Also Here Be Dragon was from Ukraine, but then he was living in Poland. So, our idiosyncratic forum - the users of the forum supporting the invasion, are those users from Ukraine (except Beckow is from Czechoslovakia).

    Why pull up Moldova

     

    Well, Moldova was part of the USSR. They supplied everyone with cognac. Maybe there could be the alcoholic version of the conspiracy theory "they want to invade Iraq for oil".

    “Online UN roundtable”, it’s hilarious! You could be the attache for the Russo-Jewish
     
    I guess this job means arguing to support Prigozhin and Solovyov. Maybe I can be Costa Rica.

    provide these infantry fighting vehicles, you have to provide tanks because these vehicles

     

    It's already a significant escalation, although perhaps it will be many months before they will be fighting in the war.

    In the Second World War, they would have probably called these "light tanks". And they have nightvision optics, very long-range anti-tank missiles etc.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Vmikwrhc5E


    that they are boiling the frog slowly. They have to provide these weapons packages in increments to avert a rapid escalation, to let everyone adjust

     

    And they change the discussion to the next weapon, so Biden says "no don't worry we wouldn't give Ukraine those weapons". Then six months later it will be the next weapon, slowly building the parts of an army. I remember in the summer it was talking about giving 155mm howitzers (artillery) to Ukraine.

    monstrous as this sounds, you have to delve deeper to find the good and the beautiful in his philosophy
     
    Sure, of course these are great German writers, which are famous for a reason.

    Replies: @AP, @LatW

    About AnoninTN, if I remember, he is from Ukraine, from Lvov. Also Here Be Dragon was from Ukraine, but then he was living in Poland. So, our idiosyncratic forum – the users of the forum supporting the invasion, are those users from Ukraine

    AnoninTN was born in Lviv (to non-native carpetbaggers, it seems) but left when he was 5 years old and grew up in Donbas. He is of partial Ukrainian descent.

    Here Be Dragon is from Ukraine but has no Ukrainian roots and is a Russian-speaker of Russian, Jewish and Romanian descent. Essentially, a Homo Sovieticus.

    Their opinions (particularly HBD) towards Ukraine are comparable to that of an ethnic German from Poland or Czechoslovakia about the German invasion of those countries.

    The only Ukrainian from Ukraine posting here was angry at me and Mr. Hack for not hating Russians enough.

    • Replies: @Yahya
    @AP


    Here Be Dragon is from Ukraine but has no Ukrainian roots and is a Russian-speaker of Russian, Jewish and Romanian descent. Essentially, a Homo Sovieticus.
     
    I wonder where the Dragon Man has gone off too. Probably to a hookah bar to smoke hash-infused shishah; or perhaps he has overdosed and departed this Earth. I think his appalling behavior earned him the disrespect and ire of most commentors towards the end; and that may have driven him off. But he did provide some comic relief with his over-the-top ethnic insults and love-hate relationship with his Jewish ancestry. I laughed most when; after months of pro-Arab and anti-Jewish comments he made; he abruptly switched to calling Arabs “human asses with no soul”; not fit to dine with Jews; after getting into a spat with me. Very funny stuff.

    The mindless pro-Soviet attitudes of some Russian boomers was also interesting to see. All these Sovok insults have a basis in reality.

    Where have German_Reader and Ivashka gone? Just when the blog was picking up steam; after the return of Bashibuzuk, Talha, Blinky Bill and AaronB; it appears to be losing two of the top commentors. Very sad really.

    Replies: @Yevardian

    , @Mr. Hack
    @AP


    and Mr. Hack for not hating Russians enough.
     
    Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't remember any such chastisement from me to you? I think that I've always shown respect for Russians and their culture here. I've brought up my Russian aunt from Murmansk several times here with nothing but praise. I've been an ambassador for Russian culture here, lavishing nothing but praise for the Russian Art Museum in Mpls. If I even made one such uncharacteristic remark, it must have been as they say, "I was having a bad day at the office". I even remember praising you for bringing up your own kids in a bi-lingual Russian/Ukrainian environment. I've always been glad to have had the experience of studying Russian for 2 years at the college level. Are you sure that you don't have me mixed up for somebody else?...

    Replies: @AP

    , @songbird
    @AP


    AnoninTN was born in Lviv (to non-native carpetbaggers, it seems)
     
    I thought the Soviet Union often chose where people would live, and often assigned people outside their ethnic republics, in order to purposefully erode national feelings.

    Replies: @AnonfromTN

  760. @Mr. Hack
    @HeavilyMarbledSteak


    As you should. It is a great faith that I learn a lot from.
     
    Not being the greatest embodiment of a Christian (I still feel that I haven't matured much beyond the first rung of the latter leading to theosis) I'm hesitant to criticize other faith systems, and indeed I was brought up to be very tolerant of those that practice other faiths. But I really do believe that Jesus Christ was a part and parcel of the Godhead, that places him at the apex of all other faith systems. He warned the world:

    For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
     
    Matthew 24.5

    His mission and place in the universe was unique. No other "new messengers" will be sent to replace his glory.

    Replies: @HeavilyMarbledSteak, @Sher Singh, @Another Polish Perspective

    Sure, that sounds alright. There’s a way of being Christian and making Jesus central to your faith, and thinking his role was unique, while also not just tolerating other religions but understanding them as also divine revelations that one can use to deepen one’s understanding of Christianity.

    I’m not saying that’s your position or that you must take up this position 🙂 But if I was a Christian that’s the kind of Christian I’d be.

    I agree that there is “something” about Jesus – he’s a very compelling figure that will always fascinate us. And I definitely understand why in your faith he’s irreplaceable.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @HeavilyMarbledSteak

    Your ideas here are tenable and probably reflect those of DBH to some extant that you've been reading a lot of lately. I'd appreciate you recommending two of his books and two of the Orthodox Englishman as well. It's great to hear that you find Jesus Christ to be a compelling figure.

    I do want to remind you that His mission here was not designed to fascinate anyone, but to provide those with humility the chance to enter the doors to paradise and experience immortality firsthand.

    Replies: @HeavilyMarbledSteak, @AP

  761. @Mr. Hack
    @HeavilyMarbledSteak


    As you should. It is a great faith that I learn a lot from.
     
    Not being the greatest embodiment of a Christian (I still feel that I haven't matured much beyond the first rung of the latter leading to theosis) I'm hesitant to criticize other faith systems, and indeed I was brought up to be very tolerant of those that practice other faiths. But I really do believe that Jesus Christ was a part and parcel of the Godhead, that places him at the apex of all other faith systems. He warned the world:

    For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
     
    Matthew 24.5

    His mission and place in the universe was unique. No other "new messengers" will be sent to replace his glory.

    Replies: @HeavilyMarbledSteak, @Sher Singh, @Another Polish Perspective

    The Lord sent many & they burn; they directed people to themselves instead of the formless.
    This includes all of the abrahamic.

  762. @QCIC
    @AP

    Most readers recognize that the videos of officially sanctioned Ukrainian thugs press ganging innocent men undermine your noble 'Azovian' perspective. This is what happens when people start an avoidable war.

    Great job, morons.

    Replies: @AP

    Some (but not all) of those videos are fake.

    At any rate, even if a war enjoys majority support it does not mean that it enjoys universal support. The war is still popular in Russia, yet there are plenty of videos of Russians getting grabbed and forced into the military.

    There were mass arrests of Americans for draft dodging during World War II, which was popular in the USA:

    From just one night:

    https://blogs.shu.edu/ww2-0/1943/05/16/fbi-cracks-down-on-draft-dodgers-638-arrested/

  763. @AP
    @Dmitry


    About AnoninTN, if I remember, he is from Ukraine, from Lvov. Also Here Be Dragon was from Ukraine, but then he was living in Poland. So, our idiosyncratic forum – the users of the forum supporting the invasion, are those users from Ukraine
     
    AnoninTN was born in Lviv (to non-native carpetbaggers, it seems) but left when he was 5 years old and grew up in Donbas. He is of partial Ukrainian descent.

    Here Be Dragon is from Ukraine but has no Ukrainian roots and is a Russian-speaker of Russian, Jewish and Romanian descent. Essentially, a Homo Sovieticus.

    Their opinions (particularly HBD) towards Ukraine are comparable to that of an ethnic German from Poland or Czechoslovakia about the German invasion of those countries.

    The only Ukrainian from Ukraine posting here was angry at me and Mr. Hack for not hating Russians enough.

    Replies: @Yahya, @Mr. Hack, @songbird

    Here Be Dragon is from Ukraine but has no Ukrainian roots and is a Russian-speaker of Russian, Jewish and Romanian descent. Essentially, a Homo Sovieticus.

    I wonder where the Dragon Man has gone off too. Probably to a hookah bar to smoke hash-infused shishah; or perhaps he has overdosed and departed this Earth. I think his appalling behavior earned him the disrespect and ire of most commentors towards the end; and that may have driven him off. But he did provide some comic relief with his over-the-top ethnic insults and love-hate relationship with his Jewish ancestry. I laughed most when; after months of pro-Arab and anti-Jewish comments he made; he abruptly switched to calling Arabs “human asses with no soul”; not fit to dine with Jews; after getting into a spat with me. Very funny stuff.

    The mindless pro-Soviet attitudes of some Russian boomers was also interesting to see. All these Sovok insults have a basis in reality.

    Where have German_Reader and Ivashka gone? Just when the blog was picking up steam; after the return of Bashibuzuk, Talha, Blinky Bill and AaronB; it appears to be losing two of the top commentors. Very sad really.

    • Agree: AP
    • Replies: @Yevardian
    @Yahya


    German_Reader
     
    I'm afraid he may he departed this site permanently after a few threads filled mostly with anti-vax poasters, Sher Singh spamming his Indo-Aryan schtick and the endlessly rehashed points over Ukraine.
    I couldn't be bothered posting my booklist after he left since it would have basically have been a reply solely directed for him, honestly.

    Maybe I should have gotten his email in case, although I don't think he appreciated my appreciation of utu's 'anti-German cunt rants' as the best comedy posted on these Open Threads since Karlin left.

    Replies: @Sher Singh

  764. @HeavilyMarbledSteak
    @Mr. Hack

    Sure, that sounds alright. There's a way of being Christian and making Jesus central to your faith, and thinking his role was unique, while also not just tolerating other religions but understanding them as also divine revelations that one can use to deepen one's understanding of Christianity.

    I'm not saying that's your position or that you must take up this position :) But if I was a Christian that's the kind of Christian I'd be.

    I agree that there is "something" about Jesus - he's a very compelling figure that will always fascinate us. And I definitely understand why in your faith he's irreplaceable.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    Your ideas here are tenable and probably reflect those of DBH to some extant that you’ve been reading a lot of lately. I’d appreciate you recommending two of his books and two of the Orthodox Englishman as well. It’s great to hear that you find Jesus Christ to be a compelling figure.

    I do want to remind you that His mission here was not designed to fascinate anyone, but to provide those with humility the chance to enter the doors to paradise and experience immortality firsthand.

    • Replies: @HeavilyMarbledSteak
    @Mr. Hack

    There's so much to recommend with DBH

    I'd start with

    1) That All Shall be Saved - his defense of universal salvation and no eternal damnation, a key part of his thought.

    2) GOD - Being, Consciousness, Bliss.

    But I also really liked his Door of the Sea, his reflections on the problem of theodicy occasioned by the Asian Tsunami of 2004. But I found the book became the occasion for wide ranging theological reflections that go beyond this limited theme and offers some of his richest thought, and had a sort of poignant moral passion to it.

    One of his most popular books is the rather whimsical Roland in Moonlight - his dog suddenly starts talking to him, and together they explore a wide range of religious and other topics. But I haven't read this one yet.

    But there's so much more! His literary essays are much lighter and quite delightful, his theological essays are fantastic as well, and his fiction is strangely good - the stories in The Devil and Pierre Gernet were haunting.

    There are also a ton of interviews with him on YouTube and especially the ones featured on his substack site, which also contains dozens of essays of his. (I'm actually a premium subscriber to his Substack, and I can give three limited subscriptions away for free - I'd be happy to give anyone who wants).

    I guess that's rather a lot :)

    As for the Orthodox Englishman, Paul Kingsnorth, I've only read two books from him - Alexandria, about a group of people living in the wilderness who are being hunted by a sinister Entity that wants to upload them into a machine-like hive mind that the rest of humanity has already been incorporated into. I enjoyed this one - the final conversation between the Entity and the group was surprising and powerful.

    The other book is Savage God's - about his crisis of faith in his calling as a writer, and his recovery. Also enjoyed this a lot - his thinking here was very consistent with Zen, but it's also a powerfully emotional confession.

    He also has a Substack - but these days it's mostly the kind of tedious reactionary pablum you can get on any dozen right wing websites these days.

    His earlier essays on his site touch more on the intersection of the wilderness and Christianity.

    , @AP
    @Mr. Hack


    Your ideas here are tenable and probably reflect those of DBH to some extant that you’ve been reading a lot of lately. I’d appreciate you recommending two of his books
     
    DBH’s Atheist Delusions is great. Been a few years since I’ve read it. Contrary to the title it’s not an attack on atheists but a clear description of Orthodox Christianity (versus false complaints about it coming from anti-Christians) and its role in shaping society. A few years ago I posted his writing about Jung, which Bashi enjoyed.

    Lately DBH has taken a possibly heretical position such as the idea that salvation is universal, which is comforting but not generally accepted by Orthodoxy:

    https://orthodoxwiki.org/Apocatastasis
  765. @HeavilyMarbledSteak
    @AP

    If everyone simply listened to consensus and authority, no religion would have ever gotten off the ground.

    Replies: @AP

    This comment implies that Christianity is no better or no more valid than the religions that it rebelled against and thus rebellion against that consensus and authority is equivalent to rebellion against Christian consensus and authority.

    As a Christian – destroying and overthrowing pagan authority and power was good, but with respect to Christian authority and power the appropriate approach is ongoing vigilance and improvement (as we ought to do on ourselves personally) rather than destruction and overthrow.

    • Replies: @HeavilyMarbledSteak
    @AP

    All that is very well, but then the "mere act" of defying a social consensus and an establishment is not in itself always grounds for condemnation.

    You may condemn me for defying the Christian consensus, for instance, because you think it's perfect - but the point you were making wasn't about the "content" of my defiance, but about the mere fact that I defied a consensus, that I dared to think I "knew" better than practicing Jews, Christians, Sikhs, etc. You were elevating Establishment social consensus over personal judgment as a general principle, as can be seen by you including non-Christian social consensus.

    Now, if you're merely claiming that the Christian social consensus shouldn't be defied - that's quite a different, and much more limited, claim, which we'd have to evaluate on its merits.

    But first, make clear that you're not making a general principle that automatically an Establishment should not be defied - then, if you want to make a special claim for the Christian Establishment, since there is no general principle involved it simply has to be evaluated on its specific merits (which I've evaluated, and decided against).

    For instance, the first Christians were anti-social rebels against the Roman establishment and the social consensus of their time. So obviously, in some cases, you must approve of defying the social consensus.

    In reality, AP, you are an authoritarian who identifies as a shaper and a guardian of the social order - I mean by this, this is the role you wish to play in a social order - but you come from a tradition based on one of the worlds grandest examples of defying a powerful Establishment.

    So you are in a little bit of a bind. You'd like to make a general principle of submission to authority, but you can't. But in reality it's not so much of a bind after all - all revolutionaries face this issue. To come to power, they have to defy authority, but once they are the authority, they have to preach submission to authority.

    Replies: @AP

  766. @AP
    @Dmitry


    About AnoninTN, if I remember, he is from Ukraine, from Lvov. Also Here Be Dragon was from Ukraine, but then he was living in Poland. So, our idiosyncratic forum – the users of the forum supporting the invasion, are those users from Ukraine
     
    AnoninTN was born in Lviv (to non-native carpetbaggers, it seems) but left when he was 5 years old and grew up in Donbas. He is of partial Ukrainian descent.

    Here Be Dragon is from Ukraine but has no Ukrainian roots and is a Russian-speaker of Russian, Jewish and Romanian descent. Essentially, a Homo Sovieticus.

    Their opinions (particularly HBD) towards Ukraine are comparable to that of an ethnic German from Poland or Czechoslovakia about the German invasion of those countries.

    The only Ukrainian from Ukraine posting here was angry at me and Mr. Hack for not hating Russians enough.

    Replies: @Yahya, @Mr. Hack, @songbird

    and Mr. Hack for not hating Russians enough.

    Please correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t remember any such chastisement from me to you? I think that I’ve always shown respect for Russians and their culture here. I’ve brought up my Russian aunt from Murmansk several times here with nothing but praise. I’ve been an ambassador for Russian culture here, lavishing nothing but praise for the Russian Art Museum in Mpls. If I even made one such uncharacteristic remark, it must have been as they say, “I was having a bad day at the office”. I even remember praising you for bringing up your own kids in a bi-lingual Russian/Ukrainian environment. I’ve always been glad to have had the experience of studying Russian for 2 years at the college level. Are you sure that you don’t have me mixed up for somebody else?…

    • Replies: @AP
    @Mr. Hack

    Maybe I wasn’t clear? Some guy from Ukraine (forget his name) criticised both me and you for not hating Russians enough. Sorry for any confusion if I wasn’t clear.

    So the only Ukrainian from Ukraine posting here was extremely anti-Russian (which is understandable and normal at this time).

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

  767. @AP
    @HeavilyMarbledSteak

    This comment implies that Christianity is no better or no more valid than the religions that it rebelled against and thus rebellion against that consensus and authority is equivalent to rebellion against Christian consensus and authority.

    As a Christian - destroying and overthrowing pagan authority and power was good, but with respect to Christian authority and power the appropriate approach is ongoing vigilance and improvement (as we ought to do on ourselves personally) rather than destruction and overthrow.

    Replies: @HeavilyMarbledSteak

    All that is very well, but then the “mere act” of defying a social consensus and an establishment is not in itself always grounds for condemnation.

    You may condemn me for defying the Christian consensus, for instance, because you think it’s perfect – but the point you were making wasn’t about the “content” of my defiance, but about the mere fact that I defied a consensus, that I dared to think I “knew” better than practicing Jews, Christians, Sikhs, etc. You were elevating Establishment social consensus over personal judgment as a general principle, as can be seen by you including non-Christian social consensus.

    Now, if you’re merely claiming that the Christian social consensus shouldn’t be defied – that’s quite a different, and much more limited, claim, which we’d have to evaluate on its merits.

    But first, make clear that you’re not making a general principle that automatically an Establishment should not be defied – then, if you want to make a special claim for the Christian Establishment, since there is no general principle involved it simply has to be evaluated on its specific merits (which I’ve evaluated, and decided against).

    For instance, the first Christians were anti-social rebels against the Roman establishment and the social consensus of their time. So obviously, in some cases, you must approve of defying the social consensus.

    In reality, AP, you are an authoritarian who identifies as a shaper and a guardian of the social order – I mean by this, this is the role you wish to play in a social order – but you come from a tradition based on one of the worlds grandest examples of defying a powerful Establishment.

    So you are in a little bit of a bind. You’d like to make a general principle of submission to authority, but you can’t. But in reality it’s not so much of a bind after all – all revolutionaries face this issue. To come to power, they have to defy authority, but once they are the authority, they have to preach submission to authority.

    • Replies: @AP
    @HeavilyMarbledSteak


    You may condemn me for defying the Christian consensus, for instance, because you think it’s perfect
     
    I never claimed it's perfect.

    But it's the best we've got, so the task is to guard it, improve it, fix imperfections (this process will never be completed by humans) rather than to overthrow it, undermine it, defy it or destroy it.

    I dared to think I “knew” better than practicing Jews, Christians, Sikhs
     
    Indeed, in your arrogance you claim to know better about Christianity than a Christian, to understand Buddhism better than do practicing Buddhists, to understand Judaism better than do Orthodox devout Jews, you even to teach about Sikhism to a Sikh.

    You were elevating Establishment social consensus over personal judgment as a general principle, as can be seen by you including non-Christian social consensus.
     
    It's a general principal that a dilettante such as you won't understand a faith better than one who grew up in it and practices it, whatever that faith may be. If you had some humility you would recognize that.

    But first, make clear that you’re not making a general principle that automatically an Establishment should not be defied
     
    I've been pretty clear. Maybe you should listen more, rather than project your own problems onto the world?

    I have repeated probably dozens of times that it was right for Christians to overthrow the evil pre-Christian order and for Christians to overthrow other evil orders where they found them (i.e., that of the demon-worshipping Meso-Americans). I have also been clear that because the Christian order is good it ought to be defended against overthrow - strengthened, protected.

    The general principle of rebellion-for-rebellion's sake is yours. And then you falsely accuse me of the opposite - authority-for-authority's sake. I am not backwards looking-glass version of you.

    In reality, AP, you are an authoritarian
     
    You are as clueless about me as you are about everything else. Perhaps the funniest was when you accused me of being some sort of workaholic.

    Reality is not something you are capable of grasping.

    But a pattern is emerging here:

    You seem to support rebellion-for-rebellion's sake as a general principle, and falsely accuse me of the opposite, authority for the sake of authority.

    You are a lazy parasite, and falsely accuse me of the opposite (some sort of intensely ambitious workaholic).

    You can't resolve opposites within yourself as a normal functioning adult does, so you project them outward, take extreme one--sided positions, etc. Most people get over that by the age of eighteen.

    You’d like to make a general principle of submission to authority
     
    Nonsense. The one making general principles in terms of relationships towards authority is you.

    Replies: @Ivashka the fool, @HeavilyMarbledSteak

  768. @Mr. Hack
    @AP


    and Mr. Hack for not hating Russians enough.
     
    Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't remember any such chastisement from me to you? I think that I've always shown respect for Russians and their culture here. I've brought up my Russian aunt from Murmansk several times here with nothing but praise. I've been an ambassador for Russian culture here, lavishing nothing but praise for the Russian Art Museum in Mpls. If I even made one such uncharacteristic remark, it must have been as they say, "I was having a bad day at the office". I even remember praising you for bringing up your own kids in a bi-lingual Russian/Ukrainian environment. I've always been glad to have had the experience of studying Russian for 2 years at the college level. Are you sure that you don't have me mixed up for somebody else?...

    Replies: @AP

    Maybe I wasn’t clear? Some guy from Ukraine (forget his name) criticised both me and you for not hating Russians enough. Sorry for any confusion if I wasn’t clear.

    So the only Ukrainian from Ukraine posting here was extremely anti-Russian (which is understandable and normal at this time).

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @AP

    I misunderstood what you wrote. But yes, I do remember that young guy, who most always seemed to come to this blog with a big chip on his shoulder. The last I remember, this brave patriot was heeding his mother's advice to not join the Ukrainian military and stay out of the war (most any mother would express similar feelings). Whatever he's doing, I hope that he's alright.

  769. @Yahya
    @Barbarossa


    I passed along my newest of the articles that I write for the local paper via email. If you would like to keep getting them I can keep you on the email list
     
    I checked my inbox and spam; and didn’t find the email. Can you please re-send? I read one article you posted a while back (the Irish satire); was interested to read more but your name on the header doesn’t link to a comprehensive page of your articles.

    Even with subtitles it is extremely immersive despite, or perhaps because of, the leisurely pacing.
     
    War & Peace is one of the few movies where slow pacing was both appropriate and conducive to enhancing the viewers cinematic experience. There have been a few others like Space Odyessy, Lawrence of Arabia, or The Two Popes; but these are far and few in between. My beef with this technique is not that I dislike slow pacing; but that certain pretentious eurotrash directors seem to deliberately employ the snail’s pace to make their movie seem more sophisticated than it is. They are blackmailing critics and viewers into rating the film highly (despite not liking it) by subliminaly threatening them with looking unsophisticated if they don’t. It is this emotional blackmail that makes me despise the eurotrash director; especially the French ones who leverage their nation’s prestige to produce garbage which everyone hates to watch; but is nonetheless praised through the roof by cowardly critics and gullible film students.

    But War & Peace really is a masterpiece of a movie. Everything about it; the plot, characters, casting, cinematography, dialogue etc. is of the highest degree of excellence. If the world was just; it would’ve been placed in the Sight & Sound list of top 100 movies of all-time. But alas; the critics choose to worship at the alter of Goddard, Bergman and Fellini. I think the main reason why War & Peace succeeds so well is because; despite Bondarchuck’s high-brow inclinations; he was given lavish funding by the Soviet government and in turn paid more attention to the entertainment factor in order to reach a wider audience and give the state a return on investment. Nothing is more magnificent than a movie that is at once entertaining and intelligent. And the Soviet Union deserves credit for funding a blockbuster that maintained concern for artistic value.

    I’ve watched another of Bondarchuck’s movies called My Uncle Vanya; based on a Chekhov play; and while it was intelligent and sophisticated (it could hardly be otherwise; given the author); it failed to entertain and was thus resigned to obscurity; only to be watched by people like me, who may be regarded as an esoteric sect. This is the problem with Soviet and Eastern European movies in the general; they’re not stupid, certainly far more intelligent than the average Hollywood movie; but they fail at the basic function of keeping viewers engaged. It’s no wonder hardly anyone outside Eastern Europe watches any of that stuff. Again; the directors coming out of Anglo-America do a better job at walking the fine line between entertainment and sophistication; and that’s why they achieve persistent fame, accolades and viewership.

    Replies: @Emil Nikola Richard, @Yevardian

    > But War & Peace really is a masterpiece of a movie. Everything about it; the plot, characters, casting, cinematography, dialogue etc. is of the highest degree of excellence.

    No. They practically omitted Maria. Maria and not Natasha is the heroine of the novel. The BBC mini series is superior on this one axis which is as important as any other.

    Still it’s a lot better than just about any other movie. I wonder how many horses were sacrificed.

    • Replies: @Yahya
    @Emil Nikola Richard


    No. They practically omitted Maria. Maria and not Natasha is the heroine of the novel. The BBC mini series is superior on this one axis which is as important as any other.
     
    I wrote about Princess Maria Bolkonsky’s unfortunate omission in my review: https://www.unz.com/akarlin/open-thread-201/#comment-5666844
    , @Barbarossa
    @Emil Nikola Richard


    I wonder how many horses were sacrificed.
     
    My 11 year old was wondering how they did all that with the horses. There were some violent rolls etc. which seemed quite likely to cause major injury. They must have some tricks in the film industry to add some modicum of safety for horse stunts but I guess now it's just mostly CGI for all that.

    Thanks for the criticism on the movie. For better or worse I'll be enjoying the movie mostly on its' own merits since it's been over 15 years since I read War and Peace. It seems very true to spirit of Tolstoy's work but I won't be able to criticize specifics overly much. I'm thinking I may re-read it soon though.

    Replies: @Emil Nikola Richard

  770. @Emil Nikola Richard
    @Yahya

    > But War & Peace really is a masterpiece of a movie. Everything about it; the plot, characters, casting, cinematography, dialogue etc. is of the highest degree of excellence.

    No. They practically omitted Maria. Maria and not Natasha is the heroine of the novel. The BBC mini series is superior on this one axis which is as important as any other.

    Still it's a lot better than just about any other movie. I wonder how many horses were sacrificed.

    Replies: @Yahya, @Barbarossa

    No. They practically omitted Maria. Maria and not Natasha is the heroine of the novel. The BBC mini series is superior on this one axis which is as important as any other.

    I wrote about Princess Maria Bolkonsky’s unfortunate omission in my review: https://www.unz.com/akarlin/open-thread-201/#comment-5666844

  771. @S
    @songbird


    What is the deal with the promotion of eating bugs?
     
    I think it's part of the conditioning they are performing to prepare the planned for greatly dumbed down five hundred million human survivors of WWIII for the world the present day elites and hangers on wish for them to inhabit.

    I would add Tyler Durden's speech from 1999's Fight Club to that:

    In the world I see - you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty car pool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

    Along with the recently heard, though with a slight addendum:

    'You will have nothing, and you will work for nothing, and you will be happy.'

    https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/tag/tyler_durden



    As an aside, are you familiar with the actress Julie Newmar by chance, Songbird? Amongst other characters, she played Catwoman in the 1960's Batman series.

    While she was (and still is) certainly physically beautiful, she seemed to have had a beautiful spirit about herself, too, which seemed to really shine through at times. In other words, I don't think she was always simply characterizing, whomever she might be portraying, a truism with many and actor and actress I suppose.

    https://youtu.be/sh_THrPc4uM

    Replies: @songbird

    As an aside, are you familiar with the actress Julie Newmar by chance, Songbird? Amongst other characters, she played Catwoman in the 1960’s Batman series.

    Only very slightly.

    [MORE]
    I recall hearing her name quite a bit (evidently she made an impression on a lot of people), but what I remember most from that show is Vincent Price playing Egghead. Guilty pleasure, when he throws out those egg-puns with almost every line.

    __
    What I also thought with bugs is that they are probably easier to put on ice, so to speak, if you had them in some nuclear bunker.

    What a lot of people say about it is that the bugs are higher in environmental toxins and germs because you are eating their guts and skin.

    >THX
    Never saw it (Don’t think I’d have the stomach for it.) But I did see one of his friend Spielberg’s earlier efforts: The Duel (1971). IMO, it kind of has vibes of folk horror to it, in that I think Spielberg is showing his dislike/fear of rural areas, but it is understated, as it mainly focuses on one antagonist, a trucker.

    >regarding the behavior of animals.

    I have heard before of people loosing an eye to wild birds.

    Once, when I was young, I buried my friend in sand at the beach, and put a towel on his face, and pretended to throw food on him, so that he could scare the seagulls. Wouldn’t have done it, if I had a better appreciation for the dangers. Though, he came out of it alright.

    I have some limited experience with pits and pit mutts. Never had one myself, but I think Singapore was right to ban them. It’s remarkable the differences between them and a golden retriever. One thing I noticed is that they seem quick to fly into a rage, when they hear another dog bark, even if it isn’t on their own territory. They often seem high strung too. You could almost walk, with a golden retriever strapped under each foot, without each one even flinching, but pits get nervous when you step near them, not even on them – but near them. IMO, they definitely have low impulse control. The kind of dog who will try to raid the larder.

    One thing that has always amazed me about dogs is their sense of smell. It must feed into a mind nothing like our own, just because they have this extra sense.

    I once castigated a dog that was indoors because I thought it had marked a spot. To my shock, he immediately began marking the spot – then I realized that it hadn’t been him, but another dog, and he thought I was upbraiding him for not marking over the same spot. And if I had had the same sense of smell, I would have known which dog it was.

    • Replies: @S
    @songbird


    Only very slightly...I recall hearing her name quite a bit (evidently she made an impression on a lot of people)
     
    Well, besides having a cool stage persona, she had this certain Catwoman suit she wore. You can see it if your so inclined on YouTube. [I should have been a bit more plain about it, that was Julie Newmar riding the motor bike in the early 1962 Route 66 video clip.]

    but what I remember most from that show is Vincent Price playing Egghead. Guilty pleasure, when he throws out those egg-puns with almost every line.
     
    Very good stuff, thanks for the clip. A very creative little series and it demonstrates what Television is capable of when properly done.

    I have heard before of people loosing an eye to wild birds...Once, when I was young, I buried my friend in sand at the beach, and put a towel on his face, and pretended to throwfood on him, so that he could scare the seagulls.
     
    There was a horror film about a rape victim tying up one of her rapists, propping open his eyes, and then covering them in honey, or, something. Sure enough, these giant black crows came around, and pecked out his eyes.

    Relatedly, supposedly if a cat's owner dies, it's not beyond cats to help themselves to their now deceased former owner's eyes.

    That's loyalty for you! :-D
  772. @Mr. Hack
    @HeavilyMarbledSteak

    Your ideas here are tenable and probably reflect those of DBH to some extant that you've been reading a lot of lately. I'd appreciate you recommending two of his books and two of the Orthodox Englishman as well. It's great to hear that you find Jesus Christ to be a compelling figure.

    I do want to remind you that His mission here was not designed to fascinate anyone, but to provide those with humility the chance to enter the doors to paradise and experience immortality firsthand.

    Replies: @HeavilyMarbledSteak, @AP

    There’s so much to recommend with DBH

    I’d start with

    1) That All Shall be Saved – his defense of universal salvation and no eternal damnation, a key part of his thought.

    2) GOD – Being, Consciousness, Bliss.

    But I also really liked his Door of the Sea, his reflections on the problem of theodicy occasioned by the Asian Tsunami of 2004. But I found the book became the occasion for wide ranging theological reflections that go beyond this limited theme and offers some of his richest thought, and had a sort of poignant moral passion to it.

    One of his most popular books is the rather whimsical Roland in Moonlight – his dog suddenly starts talking to him, and together they explore a wide range of religious and other topics. But I haven’t read this one yet.

    But there’s so much more! His literary essays are much lighter and quite delightful, his theological essays are fantastic as well, and his fiction is strangely good – the stories in The Devil and Pierre Gernet were haunting.

    There are also a ton of interviews with him on YouTube and especially the ones featured on his substack site, which also contains dozens of essays of his. (I’m actually a premium subscriber to his Substack, and I can give three limited subscriptions away for free – I’d be happy to give anyone who wants).

    I guess that’s rather a lot 🙂

    As for the Orthodox Englishman, Paul Kingsnorth, I’ve only read two books from him – Alexandria, about a group of people living in the wilderness who are being hunted by a sinister Entity that wants to upload them into a machine-like hive mind that the rest of humanity has already been incorporated into. I enjoyed this one – the final conversation between the Entity and the group was surprising and powerful.

    The other book is Savage God’s – about his crisis of faith in his calling as a writer, and his recovery. Also enjoyed this a lot – his thinking here was very consistent with Zen, but it’s also a powerfully emotional confession.

    He also has a Substack – but these days it’s mostly the kind of tedious reactionary pablum you can get on any dozen right wing websites these days.

    His earlier essays on his site touch more on the intersection of the wilderness and Christianity.

    • Thanks: Mr. Hack
  773. @AP
    @Dmitry


    About AnoninTN, if I remember, he is from Ukraine, from Lvov. Also Here Be Dragon was from Ukraine, but then he was living in Poland. So, our idiosyncratic forum – the users of the forum supporting the invasion, are those users from Ukraine
     
    AnoninTN was born in Lviv (to non-native carpetbaggers, it seems) but left when he was 5 years old and grew up in Donbas. He is of partial Ukrainian descent.

    Here Be Dragon is from Ukraine but has no Ukrainian roots and is a Russian-speaker of Russian, Jewish and Romanian descent. Essentially, a Homo Sovieticus.

    Their opinions (particularly HBD) towards Ukraine are comparable to that of an ethnic German from Poland or Czechoslovakia about the German invasion of those countries.

    The only Ukrainian from Ukraine posting here was angry at me and Mr. Hack for not hating Russians enough.

    Replies: @Yahya, @Mr. Hack, @songbird

    AnoninTN was born in Lviv (to non-native carpetbaggers, it seems)

    I thought the Soviet Union often chose where people would live, and often assigned people outside their ethnic republics, in order to purposefully erode national feelings.

    • Replies: @AnonfromTN
    @songbird


    I thought the Soviet Union often chose where people would live, and often assigned people outside their ethnic republics, in order to purposefully erode national feelings.
     
    Not really. My parents worked in Lvov after graduating from their colleges. As higher education was free in the USSR, after graduation you had to work where you were sent for three years, whereupon you were free to move anywhere. However, both my parents were born in what was Ukrainian SSR in the SU. What’s more, the mother tongue of my mother’s parents was Ukrainian. I learned one of Western Ukrainian dialects as a child, talking to other children near Lvov, where I lived for ~4 years. I picked “official” (Poltava) Ukrainian from my grandparents and my father, who edited a newspaper in Ukrainian.

    I still speak better Ukrainian than most self-appointed “patriots”. I read pretty much all of Ukrainian literature. It is in essence humanistic, with very few exceptions incompatible with quasi-Nazi ideology of current Kiev regime. In fact, one of the icons of the regime Taras Shevchenko, who is officially credited with the creation of Ukrainian literature (wrongly; the first literary piece in Ukrainian was written by Ivan Kotliarevsky in 1798, whereas Shevchenko was born in 1814), wrote his verses (mostly mediocre) in Ukrainian and his prose (a lot worse quality) in Russian.

  774. @Emil Nikola Richard
    @Yahya

    > But War & Peace really is a masterpiece of a movie. Everything about it; the plot, characters, casting, cinematography, dialogue etc. is of the highest degree of excellence.

    No. They practically omitted Maria. Maria and not Natasha is the heroine of the novel. The BBC mini series is superior on this one axis which is as important as any other.

    Still it's a lot better than just about any other movie. I wonder how many horses were sacrificed.

    Replies: @Yahya, @Barbarossa

    I wonder how many horses were sacrificed.

    My 11 year old was wondering how they did all that with the horses. There were some violent rolls etc. which seemed quite likely to cause major injury. They must have some tricks in the film industry to add some modicum of safety for horse stunts but I guess now it’s just mostly CGI for all that.

    Thanks for the criticism on the movie. For better or worse I’ll be enjoying the movie mostly on its’ own merits since it’s been over 15 years since I read War and Peace. It seems very true to spirit of Tolstoy’s work but I won’t be able to criticize specifics overly much. I’m thinking I may re-read it soon though.

    • Replies: @Emil Nikola Richard
    @Barbarossa

    There are teaching moments in the film for parents if your kids have the attention span to stick it out.

    Cultural relativism. They had duels in 1812. Social life would be far more serious if Mr Hack could challenge Anon tennessee to a duel and AP and Karlin were obligated to perform as seconds. : )

    Class consciousness. None of the main characters in this story would return your or my phone calls or e-mails in one billion years. Bondarchuk's class consciousness is pretty dreadful. Tolstoy owned thousands of serfs so he has an excuse.

    Replies: @AnonfromTN, @Mr. Hack, @AnonfromTN

  775. @Yahya
    @Dmitry


    If I recall, he is not too much fan of chickens either.
     
    Lol, he probably dislikes American chicken because it is an African-American favorite. Watermelon too, probably.

    You were living in Boston? There you can share memories with Songbird.
     
    I’ve mentioned it a few times over the years. Songbird and I briefly discussed the architecture of the beautiful McKim building in the Boston library. But of course he just had to insert a remark on how the “Chinese” and other “sassy” foreigners had ruined his experience of the library. So there’s no use in discussing anything really with that guy; too much race on the brain.

    But I’d guess most of the population of Syria has been too poor to have access
     
    That could be true; but I think for food you can do a lot with little. I was recently watching this video of a couple of Damascenes roaming around the city in 2018; and was quite surprised by how nice Damascus looked.

    https://youtu.be/ULEtzGZq1vM

    One would think the war would’ve taken a toll on the city; but perhaps it’s localized in a few places. Or they may have rebuilt it quickly. I recall Tyler Cowen mentioning that reconstruction following war is far easier than building things from scratch. The knowledge is already there to capitalize; all that is needed is capital and stability.

    I’ve only visited Damascus once when I was 7 years old. I don’t remember much; but I do recall how spacious and beautiful it seemed; especially in comparison to Cairo, which is unbelievably chaotic and disappointingly ugly in many places. The Levant imo is one of the most beautiful natural landscapes in the world. It only takes a moderate level of urban development to make a place like Damascus or Jerusalem look aesthetically pleasing. In fact one could argue that anything beyond a moderate level would tend to ruin the charm and gravitas of these places.

    Just looking at photos of Jaffa/Yafo; it seems economically depressed in comparison to the bustling Tel Aviv behind it; but is incomparably beautiful:


    https://i.ibb.co/txcKsdS/3-B883-DC1-1-EFA-4-A77-8-A59-1-D34473-CDFFE.webp


    So perhaps economic development is not the highest good that economists would have us believe. I’d like to visit Israel/Palestine but there are some obstacles to my doing so. But if the social environment permits it one day; which places do you recommend visiting?


    By the way, what do you think about this connoisseurship for dates like in Saudi Arabia?
     
    Well dates are fundamentally tied to the image of Saudi Arabia; and rightfully so. In any house you visit there; the host will bring you a pile of dates along with Arabic or Turkish coffee. Saudis take great pride in their knowledge of dates and their point of origin. I personally prefer to drink a milkshake with dates and bananas rather than eat it.

    Saudi Arabia has a pretty unique national cuisine and a top-quality restaurant scene; definitely an interesting place to go if you are a foody. The restaurants there are staffed with a variety of foreign laborers from all over the world; India, Philippines, Indonesia, Syria, Egypt, Japan etc. so you get the authentic cooking styles from each of these nations. I think only UAE can rival the KSA in that respect. On the other hand, these restaurants are international; I can’t think of any actually that serve native Arabian cuisine; because most Saudis have servants to cook for them at home (or otherwise the stay-at-home wife). The best experience you’ll have there is to eat Kabsah with the Bedouins out in the desert. Just a wonderful vibe; but you can replicate the experience in Sharm El-Sheikh too with the Bedouins of Sinai.

    Saudi Arabia otherwise is a lame place to visit for tourism. It’s almost comical how little we have in history that is of interest to anyone but Saudis. When I was in Riyadh I visited a fortress that had served as the main base for King Abdulaziz, the founder of Saudi Arabia. There was literally two other Spanish tourists and no-one else. On the other hand; the government is putting an all-out effort to develop this place called Al-Ula in Northern Arabia to become a touristic destination; based on some evidence that Moses and other biblical characters had traversed there.

    https://youtu.be/z8A0LpX7_yM

    This video narrated by Jeremey Irons seems to have gotten a good number of views (8M); so perhaps the gubmint will succeed in their efforts. But still there are obstacles to attracting foreigners; like a ban on alcohol and bikinis. So we’ll see.

    Replies: @songbird

    But of course he just had to insert a remark on how the “Chinese” and other “sassy” foreigners had ruined his experience of the library.

    Typically, you’d misread my tone. Actually, I said that I thought the Chinese tourists were especially appreciative of the beauty of the building. They’ve probably prevented the frescoes showing the city’s original demographics from being painted over for the time being, but that may change, as Chinese students are drying up.

    BTW, antiracist Arabs are so rare. Next time, you come to Boston. I hope you stay in Roxbury, and volunteer in the public schools. Then you can fight the prejudices of the folks back home by telling them about your pleasant experiences. That is, if your feelings are genuine, and you are not just some vain, empty-signaler, parroting the regime values of the West because doing so makes you feel better than non-oil Arabs.

    But I shouldn’t assume your thoughts. You have volunteered in black schools, right?

    • Troll: Yahya
    • Replies: @AnonfromTN
    @songbird


    BTW, antiracist Arabs are so rare.
     
    Interestingly, while the “woke” BS in the West is a pack of lies, there are places on Earth where you can have white privilege. Based on my personal experience, I can name Indonesia, Malaysia, and Kenya. In these countries, if you are white, you can do no wrong. They let you go anywhere w/o questions, whereas they always question locals going into upscale hotels and similar places. Indonesians clearly feel that as a white person (orang puti in their language) you are within your rights, but they resent Chinese and Japanese tourists and say bad things about them. I don’t think this is healthy, but that’s how it is.

    BTW, in Indonesian pharmacies at least half of the products are "whitening creams". Looks silly, as their chicks are a lot prettier the color they are. Many are prettier than most white gals.

    Replies: @songbird

    , @Yahya
    @songbird


    Actually, I said that I thought the Chinese tourists were especially appreciative of the beauty of the building.
     
    You said no such thing. But have it your way.

    parroting the regime values of the West because doing so makes you feel better than non-oil Arabs.
     
    Oh yes; I’m so enthrall to the regime values of the West that I hang around the notoriously woke website UNZ review; go around discussing various group IQs; believe strongly in the validity of HBD; have said previously that Rwanda’s developmental potential is capped in comparison to North Korea due to genetic factors. I constantly parrot regime words like “intersectionality”, “lived experiences”, “toxic masculinity” and blame racial inequalities in outcomes on “white racism”.

    All these wokeisms that I have spouted make me feel superior to “non-oil Arabs” like Syrians, Palestinians, Lebanese, Maghrebis whom I have praised highly several times and compared favorably to Saudi Arabians and other “oil Arabs” like myself. It’s also why I go about identifying with Egyptians; when Saudi Arabia is perfectly available for me to identify with. Because my real inner desire is to separate myself from non-oil Arabs.

    I don’t need to volunteer in some public school in Roxbury to express a distaste for racism in a genuine manner. It is sufficient to have experienced it myself and dislike the perpetrators of (genuine) racism as being obnoxious and distasteful.

    Replies: @songbird, @songbird

  776. @songbird
    @AP


    AnoninTN was born in Lviv (to non-native carpetbaggers, it seems)
     
    I thought the Soviet Union often chose where people would live, and often assigned people outside their ethnic republics, in order to purposefully erode national feelings.

    Replies: @AnonfromTN

    I thought the Soviet Union often chose where people would live, and often assigned people outside their ethnic republics, in order to purposefully erode national feelings.

    Not really. My parents worked in Lvov after graduating from their colleges. As higher education was free in the USSR, after graduation you had to work where you were sent for three years, whereupon you were free to move anywhere. However, both my parents were born in what was Ukrainian SSR in the SU. What’s more, the mother tongue of my mother’s parents was Ukrainian. I learned one of Western Ukrainian dialects as a child, talking to other children near Lvov, where I lived for ~4 years. I picked “official” (Poltava) Ukrainian from my grandparents and my father, who edited a newspaper in Ukrainian.

    I still speak better Ukrainian than most self-appointed “patriots”. I read pretty much all of Ukrainian literature. It is in essence humanistic, with very few exceptions incompatible with quasi-Nazi ideology of current Kiev regime. In fact, one of the icons of the regime Taras Shevchenko, who is officially credited with the creation of Ukrainian literature (wrongly; the first literary piece in Ukrainian was written by Ivan Kotliarevsky in 1798, whereas Shevchenko was born in 1814), wrote his verses (mostly mediocre) in Ukrainian and his prose (a lot worse quality) in Russian.

    • Thanks: songbird
  777. @songbird
    @Yahya


    But of course he just had to insert a remark on how the “Chinese” and other “sassy” foreigners had ruined his experience of the library.
     
    Typically, you'd misread my tone. Actually, I said that I thought the Chinese tourists were especially appreciative of the beauty of the building. They've probably prevented the frescoes showing the city's original demographics from being painted over for the time being, but that may change, as Chinese students are drying up.

    BTW, antiracist Arabs are so rare. Next time, you come to Boston. I hope you stay in Roxbury, and volunteer in the public schools. Then you can fight the prejudices of the folks back home by telling them about your pleasant experiences. That is, if your feelings are genuine, and you are not just some vain, empty-signaler, parroting the regime values of the West because doing so makes you feel better than non-oil Arabs.

    But I shouldn't assume your thoughts. You have volunteered in black schools, right?

    Replies: @AnonfromTN, @Yahya

    BTW, antiracist Arabs are so rare.

    Interestingly, while the “woke” BS in the West is a pack of lies, there are places on Earth where you can have white privilege. Based on my personal experience, I can name Indonesia, Malaysia, and Kenya. In these countries, if you are white, you can do no wrong. They let you go anywhere w/o questions, whereas they always question locals going into upscale hotels and similar places. Indonesians clearly feel that as a white person (orang puti in their language) you are within your rights, but they resent Chinese and Japanese tourists and say bad things about them. I don’t think this is healthy, but that’s how it is.

    BTW, in Indonesian pharmacies at least half of the products are “whitening creams”. Looks silly, as their chicks are a lot prettier the color they are. Many are prettier than most white gals.

    • Replies: @songbird
    @AnonfromTN


    but they resent Chinese and Japanese tourists and say bad things about them. I don’t think this is healthy
     
    There's probably a certain amount of surviving antagonism towards the Japanese because of WW2. There were mass expulsions of hundreds of thousands of them in many places, after the war. I guess they never (maybe Vietnam excepted?) had the same excuse to use against the Chinese.

    I'm not entirely unsympathetic to SE Asians. Obviously, one wants to feel in control of one's own destiny. It is as equally true that the Chinese contribute a lot to the local economies and there is a large benefit to that, but at the same time, it is easy to take that and decouple it turn it into a rabid drive to maximize wealth, at the cost of national identity.

    I think it is something that requires a tight balance and a lot of formalism. I'm not sure that there is a state that quite pulls it off, but I don't think it is necessarily totally impossible for such a place to exist. I think part of the key is developing a formal relationship between two peoples, rather than just promoting diversity or lack of identity.

    Replies: @Yahya

  778. @Barbarossa
    @Emil Nikola Richard


    I wonder how many horses were sacrificed.
     
    My 11 year old was wondering how they did all that with the horses. There were some violent rolls etc. which seemed quite likely to cause major injury. They must have some tricks in the film industry to add some modicum of safety for horse stunts but I guess now it's just mostly CGI for all that.

    Thanks for the criticism on the movie. For better or worse I'll be enjoying the movie mostly on its' own merits since it's been over 15 years since I read War and Peace. It seems very true to spirit of Tolstoy's work but I won't be able to criticize specifics overly much. I'm thinking I may re-read it soon though.

    Replies: @Emil Nikola Richard

    There are teaching moments in the film for parents if your kids have the attention span to stick it out.

    Cultural relativism. They had duels in 1812. Social life would be far more serious if Mr Hack could challenge Anon tennessee to a duel and AP and Karlin were obligated to perform as seconds. : )

    Class consciousness. None of the main characters in this story would return your or my phone calls or e-mails in one billion years. Bondarchuk’s class consciousness is pretty dreadful. Tolstoy owned thousands of serfs so he has an excuse.

    • Replies: @AnonfromTN
    @Emil Nikola Richard


    Tolstoy owned thousands of serfs so he has an excuse.
     
    Not true. Serfdom (equivalent of slavery) was abolished in the Russian Empire in 1861, which happens to be the same year the slavery was abolished in the US. Tolstoy’s ancestors used to own thousands of serfs before 1861.

    Replies: @Emil Nikola Richard

    , @Mr. Hack
    @Emil Nikola Richard


    Bondarchuk’s class consciousness is pretty dreadful. Tolstoy owned thousands of serfs so he has an excuse.
     
    I knew the family of Bondarchuk's brother that lived in St. Paul MN. His brother was a salt of the earth sort of guy who worked for the railroad as a common laborer. The rest of the family were a good decent lot, a typical diaspora Ukrainian family. I even had a crush on his pretty brunette daughter as a kid, unfortunately she passed away just barely reaching her teens.
    , @AnonfromTN
    @Emil Nikola Richard


    They had duels in 1812. Social life would be far more serious if Mr Hack could challenge Anon tennessee to a duel and AP and Karlin were obligated to perform as seconds.
     
    Being a non-superstitious scientist, I don’t think duels solve anything. Depending on who is more ruthless and a better shot, the person who is right or the one who is wrong can be killed. The truth can be established by a duel no more than it can be established by voting.
  779. @Emil Nikola Richard
    @Barbarossa

    There are teaching moments in the film for parents if your kids have the attention span to stick it out.

    Cultural relativism. They had duels in 1812. Social life would be far more serious if Mr Hack could challenge Anon tennessee to a duel and AP and Karlin were obligated to perform as seconds. : )

    Class consciousness. None of the main characters in this story would return your or my phone calls or e-mails in one billion years. Bondarchuk's class consciousness is pretty dreadful. Tolstoy owned thousands of serfs so he has an excuse.

    Replies: @AnonfromTN, @Mr. Hack, @AnonfromTN

    Tolstoy owned thousands of serfs so he has an excuse.

    Not true. Serfdom (equivalent of slavery) was abolished in the Russian Empire in 1861, which happens to be the same year the slavery was abolished in the US. Tolstoy’s ancestors used to own thousands of serfs before 1861.

    • Replies: @Emil Nikola Richard
    @AnonfromTN

    Thank you for correcting my think-o-graphical error!

  780. @AnonfromTN
    @Emil Nikola Richard


    Tolstoy owned thousands of serfs so he has an excuse.
     
    Not true. Serfdom (equivalent of slavery) was abolished in the Russian Empire in 1861, which happens to be the same year the slavery was abolished in the US. Tolstoy’s ancestors used to own thousands of serfs before 1861.

    Replies: @Emil Nikola Richard

    Thank you for correcting my think-o-graphical error!

  781. @songbird
    @Yahya


    But of course he just had to insert a remark on how the “Chinese” and other “sassy” foreigners had ruined his experience of the library.
     
    Typically, you'd misread my tone. Actually, I said that I thought the Chinese tourists were especially appreciative of the beauty of the building. They've probably prevented the frescoes showing the city's original demographics from being painted over for the time being, but that may change, as Chinese students are drying up.

    BTW, antiracist Arabs are so rare. Next time, you come to Boston. I hope you stay in Roxbury, and volunteer in the public schools. Then you can fight the prejudices of the folks back home by telling them about your pleasant experiences. That is, if your feelings are genuine, and you are not just some vain, empty-signaler, parroting the regime values of the West because doing so makes you feel better than non-oil Arabs.

    But I shouldn't assume your thoughts. You have volunteered in black schools, right?

    Replies: @AnonfromTN, @Yahya

    Actually, I said that I thought the Chinese tourists were especially appreciative of the beauty of the building.

    You said no such thing. But have it your way.

    parroting the regime values of the West because doing so makes you feel better than non-oil Arabs.

    Oh yes; I’m so enthrall to the regime values of the West that I hang around the notoriously woke website UNZ review; go around discussing various group IQs; believe strongly in the validity of HBD; have said previously that Rwanda’s developmental potential is capped in comparison to North Korea due to genetic factors. I constantly parrot regime words like “intersectionality”, “lived experiences”, “toxic masculinity” and blame racial inequalities in outcomes on “white racism”.

    All these wokeisms that I have spouted make me feel superior to “non-oil Arabs” like Syrians, Palestinians, Lebanese, Maghrebis whom I have praised highly several times and compared favorably to Saudi Arabians and other “oil Arabs” like myself. It’s also why I go about identifying with Egyptians; when Saudi Arabia is perfectly available for me to identify with. Because my real inner desire is to separate myself from non-oil Arabs.

    I don’t need to volunteer in some public school in Roxbury to express a distaste for racism in a genuine manner. It is sufficient to have experienced it myself and dislike the perpetrators of (genuine) racism as being obnoxious and distasteful.

    • Replies: @songbird
    @Yahya


    >Actually, I said that I thought the Chinese tourists were especially appreciative of the beauty of the building.

    You said no such thing. But have it your way.
     
    Here's the quote: "McKim Building of the Boston Public Library is very beautiful. You almost can’t go into it without elbowing Chinese tourists."

    You would read that I hate Chinese tourists in that because you have no empathy for most people, and zero ability to understand subtlety.

    Frankly, it is moronic. What would I care about crowds of Chinese tourists in Boston? Are they disturbing the delicate vibe of pure Euro demographics of the city? LOL. Frankly, I don't mind tourists, at all, because they always go home, and aren't involved in replacement migration. Not to mention, I have been a tourist myself.

    In the past, I have even stated that, if the Chinese made copies of European cities and stocked them full of good-looking girls, and an element of genuine cultural-demos, however small, it might be a more compelling proposition than going to the real cities.

    BTW, when I referred to "sassy" employees, it was a direct, first-hand observation relating to the "natives." If only they were all tourists.

    All these wokeisms that I have spouted make me feel superior to “non-oil Arabs” like Syrians, Palestinians, Lebanese, Maghrebis whom I have praised highly several times
     
    I assumed you were LARPing and had terrorist sympathies, or ,at least, I would have, if I were as charitably-minded, as you, and had as good a theory of mind.

    Frankly, you should stop with the psychological games. Though, I did find Trix annoying occasionally, whenever she was wrongly theorizing, or saying something insulting, it seemed that she was at least interested in finding out more about someone's thoughts and perspectives.

    Can't say the same about you. You've dismissed my stated motivations, as well as those of others similarly-minded, even attacked the moral right to be so motivated. To paraphrase, "You are just a Mick, a LARPer - you can't object to the destruction of Western Civilization because it is not yours." (an amusing POV, when you have acknowledged genetic distance - at least that between the British and Irish, but put that aside.)

    I informed you that it wouldn't matter who or what I was, if I were a Neanderthal or space alien, I'd still object to it. And then, after going to the trouble of typing out all that, stuff that is obvious and plain, and shouldn't even need to be typed out, and doing it multiple times, you still accused me of LARPing, and of being a Nazi, slander me, and write strange fantasies about me. Say that I am motivated by low impulses, instead of love for something.

    The keystone of political correctness, of invasion, displacement, and snowballing social parasitism and degeneracy of every sort, whether you understand it or not, is pro-black signaling. It only exists because blacks can't be criticized and pro-black signaling is so effortless and difficult to fight. That is what the whole alliance is built on - that is why I satirize it, and countersignal against it. (I could be amplified a hundred million times, and my message would still be more restrained and nuanced than that of the prevailing anti-European on, which you are constantly defending by attacking me)

    You think I am insulting blacks? Very few that are on here to insult. Don't think this would be the right place for it.

    Obviously, you don't have the same exposure to it. Haven't made the same first-hand observations of it. Don't have the same sympathies with the people it is effecting, haven't put any independent thought into it, likely don't appreciate real, observable and rapidly-advancing trends, and so have an opinion and attitude formed from vastly superficial and inferior inputs - Hollywood and class signaling.

    It’s also why I go about identifying with Egyptians; when Saudi Arabia is perfectly available for me to identify with.
     
    LMAO. This is easily the funniest thing that you have ever said. I'll bet you use an Egyptian passport, don't you?

    What sort of mutt in his right mind would identify with his Saudi half? I (and you know this perfectly well) was referring to oil money, NOT Saudi national identity.

    BTW, if there had been a limited bubble in space-time - perhaps, as big as one person's head - where anti-racism was absent, on 9/11, hundreds of thousands of lives, many priceless archeological objects, trillions of dollars and hundreds of billions of man-hours would have been saved, not to speak of the infinite indignities that normal, civilized people have been subjected to, or the surveillance state.

    In a nutshell, it all happened because people like you are quick to take offense at the idea that they are not part of the same civilization, and, maybe, that "my kind shouldn't be over there" is as true an axiom as "your kind shouldn't be over here."
    , @songbird
    @Yahya


    I constantly parrot regime words like “intersectionality”, “lived experiences”, “toxic masculinity” and blame racial inequalities in outcomes on “white racism”.
     
    You still use the biggest and most powerful regime vocab: "Nazi" and "racism." How do you think the whole thing started?

    Make no mistake: you're acting as a regime enforcer here, trying to shift dialogue away from criticism of mass migration, the regime's pet groups and foot soldiers, or from their rhetorical techniques. You recently attacked me for having a problem with the phrase "white British", as if there was something morally wrong with me criticizing some new-age regime term that seeks to deracinate people and steal their identity, and villainize them.

    You think that makes you a rebel against the regime? To be blunt: you'd be indistinguishable from a member of the West's Fifty Cent Party, if there was such a thing, and not merely bots, true believers, and full-salaried employees.

    Replies: @Yahya

  782. @Emil Nikola Richard
    @Barbarossa

    There are teaching moments in the film for parents if your kids have the attention span to stick it out.

    Cultural relativism. They had duels in 1812. Social life would be far more serious if Mr Hack could challenge Anon tennessee to a duel and AP and Karlin were obligated to perform as seconds. : )

    Class consciousness. None of the main characters in this story would return your or my phone calls or e-mails in one billion years. Bondarchuk's class consciousness is pretty dreadful. Tolstoy owned thousands of serfs so he has an excuse.

    Replies: @AnonfromTN, @Mr. Hack, @AnonfromTN

    Bondarchuk’s class consciousness is pretty dreadful. Tolstoy owned thousands of serfs so he has an excuse.

    I knew the family of Bondarchuk’s brother that lived in St. Paul MN. His brother was a salt of the earth sort of guy who worked for the railroad as a common laborer. The rest of the family were a good decent lot, a typical diaspora Ukrainian family. I even had a crush on his pretty brunette daughter as a kid, unfortunately she passed away just barely reaching her teens.

  783. @songbird
    @S


    As an aside, are you familiar with the actress Julie Newmar by chance, Songbird? Amongst other characters, she played Catwoman in the 1960’s Batman series.
     
    Only very slightly. I recall hearing her name quite a bit (evidently she made an impression on a lot of people), but what I remember most from that show is Vincent Price playing Egghead. Guilty pleasure, when he throws out those egg-puns with almost every line.

    https://youtu.be/f04ULfzkMhY
    __
    What I also thought with bugs is that they are probably easier to put on ice, so to speak, if you had them in some nuclear bunker.

    What a lot of people say about it is that the bugs are higher in environmental toxins and germs because you are eating their guts and skin.

    >THX
    Never saw it (Don't think I'd have the stomach for it.) But I did see one of his friend Spielberg's earlier efforts: The Duel (1971). IMO, it kind of has vibes of folk horror to it, in that I think Spielberg is showing his dislike/fear of rural areas, but it is understated, as it mainly focuses on one antagonist, a trucker.

    >regarding the behavior of animals.

    I have heard before of people loosing an eye to wild birds.

    Once, when I was young, I buried my friend in sand at the beach, and put a towel on his face, and pretended to throw food on him, so that he could scare the seagulls. Wouldn't have done it, if I had a better appreciation for the dangers. Though, he came out of it alright.

    I have some limited experience with pits and pit mutts. Never had one myself, but I think Singapore was right to ban them. It's remarkable the differences between them and a golden retriever. One thing I noticed is that they seem quick to fly into a rage, when they hear another dog bark, even if it isn't on their own territory. They often seem high strung too. You could almost walk, with a golden retriever strapped under each foot, without each one even flinching, but pits get nervous when you step near them, not even on them - but near them. IMO, they definitely have low impulse control. The kind of dog who will try to raid the larder.

    One thing that has always amazed me about dogs is their sense of smell. It must feed into a mind nothing like our own, just because they have this extra sense.

    I once castigated a dog that was indoors because I thought it had marked a spot. To my shock, he immediately began marking the spot - then I realized that it hadn't been him, but another dog, and he thought I was upbraiding him for not marking over the same spot. And if I had had the same sense of smell, I would have known which dog it was.

    Replies: @S

    Only very slightly…I recall hearing her name quite a bit (evidently she made an impression on a lot of people)

    Well, besides having a cool stage persona, she had this certain Catwoman suit she wore. You can see it if your so inclined on YouTube. [I should have been a bit more plain about it, that was Julie Newmar riding the motor bike in the early 1962 Route 66 video clip.]

    but what I remember most from that show is Vincent Price playing Egghead. Guilty pleasure, when he throws out those egg-puns with almost every line.

    Very good stuff, thanks for the clip. A very creative little series and it demonstrates what Television is capable of when properly done.

    I have heard before of people loosing an eye to wild birds…Once, when I was young, I buried my friend in sand at the beach, and put a towel on his face, and pretended to throwfood on him, so that he could scare the seagulls.

    There was a horror film about a rape victim tying up one of her rapists, propping open his eyes, and then covering them in honey, or, something. Sure enough, these giant black crows came around, and pecked out his eyes.

    Relatedly, supposedly if a cat’s owner dies, it’s not beyond cats to help themselves to their now deceased former owner’s eyes.

    That’s loyalty for you! 😀

    • Thanks: songbird
  784. @AP
    @Mr. Hack

    Maybe I wasn’t clear? Some guy from Ukraine (forget his name) criticised both me and you for not hating Russians enough. Sorry for any confusion if I wasn’t clear.

    So the only Ukrainian from Ukraine posting here was extremely anti-Russian (which is understandable and normal at this time).

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    I misunderstood what you wrote. But yes, I do remember that young guy, who most always seemed to come to this blog with a big chip on his shoulder. The last I remember, this brave patriot was heeding his mother’s advice to not join the Ukrainian military and stay out of the war (most any mother would express similar feelings). Whatever he’s doing, I hope that he’s alright.

  785. @Mr. Hack
    @HeavilyMarbledSteak

    Your ideas here are tenable and probably reflect those of DBH to some extant that you've been reading a lot of lately. I'd appreciate you recommending two of his books and two of the Orthodox Englishman as well. It's great to hear that you find Jesus Christ to be a compelling figure.

    I do want to remind you that His mission here was not designed to fascinate anyone, but to provide those with humility the chance to enter the doors to paradise and experience immortality firsthand.

    Replies: @HeavilyMarbledSteak, @AP

    Your ideas here are tenable and probably reflect those of DBH to some extant that you’ve been reading a lot of lately. I’d appreciate you recommending two of his books

    DBH’s Atheist Delusions is great. Been a few years since I’ve read it. Contrary to the title it’s not an attack on atheists but a clear description of Orthodox Christianity (versus false complaints about it coming from anti-Christians) and its role in shaping society. A few years ago I posted his writing about Jung, which Bashi enjoyed.

    Lately DBH has taken a possibly heretical position such as the idea that salvation is universal, which is comforting but not generally accepted by Orthodoxy:

    https://orthodoxwiki.org/Apocatastasis

    • Thanks: Mr. Hack
  786. @HeavilyMarbledSteak
    @Mr. Hack


    Like DBH, I’m ultimately very content to continue my adherence to Jesus Christ within the framework of the Orthodox faith.
     
    As you should. It is a great faith that I learn a lot from.

    I'm also a fan of the Bahai faith. I like their saying that every religion deserved to be the world religion had it remained true to it's principles.

    They seem to believe that religions arise but then get corrupted, and God sends a new messenger. They seem to think their own faith isn't inherently superior but only the latest messenger from God.

    I like that, and think it's largely true.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @AnonfromTN

    I’m also a fan of the Bahai faith. I like their saying that every religion deserved to be the world religion had it remained true to it’s principles.

    As late Douglas Adams (of “Hitchhikers guide to the galaxy” fame) said, every religion will tell you that murder is sin and will kill you to prove its point. In contrast to Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, and even Buddhism, Bahai faith is not guilty of mass murder. It deserves a lot of respect for that.

    They seem to believe that religions arise but then get corrupted

    That’s certainly true. Human institutions get corrupted easily. Therefore, if there were some kind of God, s/he would have considered his/her Church the worst enemy deserving the most severe punishment.

    • Replies: @Another Polish Perspective
    @AnonfromTN


    Therefore, if there were some kind of God, s/he would have considered his/her Church the worst enemy deserving the most severe punishment.
     
    Well, this is exactly what had happened, according to Ezekiel 34, 7-12:

    7 “‘Therefore, you shepherds, hear the word of the Lord: 8 As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign Lord, because my flock lacks a shepherd and so has been plundered and has become food for all the wild animals, and because my shepherds did not search for my flock but cared for themselves rather than for my flock, 9 therefore, you shepherds, hear the word of the Lord: 10 This is what the Sovereign Lord says: I am against the shepherds and will hold them accountable for my flock. I will remove them from tending the flock so that the shepherds can no longer feed themselves. I will rescue my flock from their mouths, and it will no longer be food for them.

    11 “‘For this is what the Sovereign Lord says: I myself will search for my sheep and look after them. 12 As a shepherd looks after his scattered flock when he is with them, so will I look after my sheep. I will rescue them from all the places where they were scattered on a day of clouds and darkness.

    Knowing this passage (and others, also condemning shepherds) one has to really wonder how orthodox Jews can still cling to such things as "priestly blessing" (by Cohens). The feigned or learned ignorance of such passages may explain the relative scarcity of use of Prophetic writings in rabbinic Judaism, writings which probably are one of the most uncomfortable to listeners in the entire Bible. I have read that in the past rabbis did not even know Prophetic writings well - a wise choice of ignorance if one knows that they are always supposed to end their sermons on positive note.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priestly_Blessing

    Not that the Catholic Church uses the above Ezekiel passage much more - it is a natural invitation to question the authority of the Church (luckily, the Catholic Church is based on New Testament, so they can always say: It isn't about us).

    , @HeavilyMarbledSteak
    @AnonfromTN


    That’s certainly true. Human institutions get corrupted easily. Therefore, if there were some kind of God, s/he would have considered his/her Church the worst enemy deserving the most severe punishment.
     
    Well, yes, and Jewish sacred history is a tale of repeated and continuous corruption and backsliding, leading to God's repeated wrath and turning away from his people.

    It's almost as if the OT is meant to reinforce the point that mainstream institutions always get corrupted. And this goes on till the very end of the book - it's not a story of progress until "finally" society is good. The OT is not Whig history. Rather, only the Messiah will usher in the eschaton.

    Yet like AP, my Jewish friends tell me that contemporary mainstream Jewish society is perfect and beyond reproach :) Such is human nature.

    (I do not spare my Jewish friends my "heretic approach" either).

    However, I'd qualify the idea that God's church is his worst enemy - even though the Church existed in a way that was utterly opposed to God's will as revealed by Jesus, there was always the tiniest "spark" of genuine teaching preserved throughout the ages. And that's not nothing - so it wasn't an unmitigated disaster, but clearly the historical Church, and the contemporary one, are things that need to be got beyond.

    Replies: @HeavilyMarbledSteak

  787. @Emil Nikola Richard
    @Barbarossa

    There are teaching moments in the film for parents if your kids have the attention span to stick it out.

    Cultural relativism. They had duels in 1812. Social life would be far more serious if Mr Hack could challenge Anon tennessee to a duel and AP and Karlin were obligated to perform as seconds. : )

    Class consciousness. None of the main characters in this story would return your or my phone calls or e-mails in one billion years. Bondarchuk's class consciousness is pretty dreadful. Tolstoy owned thousands of serfs so he has an excuse.

    Replies: @AnonfromTN, @Mr. Hack, @AnonfromTN

    They had duels in 1812. Social life would be far more serious if Mr Hack could challenge Anon tennessee to a duel and AP and Karlin were obligated to perform as seconds.

    Being a non-superstitious scientist, I don’t think duels solve anything. Depending on who is more ruthless and a better shot, the person who is right or the one who is wrong can be killed. The truth can be established by a duel no more than it can be established by voting.

  788. @Yahya
    @songbird


    Actually, I said that I thought the Chinese tourists were especially appreciative of the beauty of the building.
     
    You said no such thing. But have it your way.

    parroting the regime values of the West because doing so makes you feel better than non-oil Arabs.
     
    Oh yes; I’m so enthrall to the regime values of the West that I hang around the notoriously woke website UNZ review; go around discussing various group IQs; believe strongly in the validity of HBD; have said previously that Rwanda’s developmental potential is capped in comparison to North Korea due to genetic factors. I constantly parrot regime words like “intersectionality”, “lived experiences”, “toxic masculinity” and blame racial inequalities in outcomes on “white racism”.

    All these wokeisms that I have spouted make me feel superior to “non-oil Arabs” like Syrians, Palestinians, Lebanese, Maghrebis whom I have praised highly several times and compared favorably to Saudi Arabians and other “oil Arabs” like myself. It’s also why I go about identifying with Egyptians; when Saudi Arabia is perfectly available for me to identify with. Because my real inner desire is to separate myself from non-oil Arabs.

    I don’t need to volunteer in some public school in Roxbury to express a distaste for racism in a genuine manner. It is sufficient to have experienced it myself and dislike the perpetrators of (genuine) racism as being obnoxious and distasteful.

    Replies: @songbird, @songbird

    >Actually, I said that I thought the Chinese tourists were especially appreciative of the beauty of the building.

    You said no such thing. But have it your way.

    Here’s the quote: “McKim Building of the Boston Public Library is very beautiful. You almost can’t go into it without elbowing Chinese tourists.”

    You would read that I hate Chinese tourists in that because you have no empathy for most people, and zero ability to understand subtlety.

    [MORE]

    Frankly, it is moronic. What would I care about crowds of Chinese tourists in Boston? Are they disturbing the delicate vibe of pure Euro demographics of the city? LOL. Frankly, I don’t mind tourists, at all, because they always go home, and aren’t involved in replacement migration. Not to mention, I have been a tourist myself.

    In the past, I have even stated that, if the Chinese made copies of European cities and stocked them full of good-looking girls, and an element of genuine cultural-demos, however small, it might be a more compelling proposition than going to the real cities.

    BTW, when I referred to “sassy” employees, it was a direct, first-hand observation relating to the “natives.” If only they were all tourists.

    All these wokeisms that I have spouted make me feel superior to “non-oil Arabs” like Syrians, Palestinians, Lebanese, Maghrebis whom I have praised highly several times

    I assumed you were LARPing and had terrorist sympathies, or ,at least, I would have, if I were as charitably-minded, as you, and had as good a theory of mind.

    Frankly, you should stop with the psychological games. Though, I did find Trix annoying occasionally, whenever she was wrongly theorizing, or saying something insulting, it seemed that she was at least interested in finding out more about someone’s thoughts and perspectives.

    Can’t say the same about you. You’ve dismissed my stated motivations, as well as those of others similarly-minded, even attacked the moral right to be so motivated. To paraphrase, “You are just a Mick, a LARPer – you can’t object to the destruction of Western Civilization because it is not yours.” (an amusing POV, when you have acknowledged genetic distance – at least that between the British and Irish, but put that aside.)

    I informed you that it wouldn’t matter who or what I was, if I were a Neanderthal or space alien, I’d still object to it. And then, after going to the trouble of typing out all that, stuff that is obvious and plain, and shouldn’t even need to be typed out, and doing it multiple times, you still accused me of LARPing, and of being a Nazi, slander me, and write strange fantasies about me. Say that I am motivated by low impulses, instead of love for something.

    The keystone of political correctness, of invasion, displacement, and snowballing social parasitism and degeneracy of every sort, whether you understand it or not, is pro-black signaling. It only exists because blacks can’t be criticized and pro-black signaling is so effortless and difficult to fight. That is what the whole alliance is built on – that is why I satirize it, and countersignal against it. (I could be amplified a hundred million times, and my message would still be more restrained and nuanced than that of the prevailing anti-European on, which you are constantly defending by attacking me)

    You think I am insulting blacks? Very few that are on here to insult. Don’t think this would be the right place for it.

    Obviously, you don’t have the same exposure to it. Haven’t made the same first-hand observations of it. Don’t have the same sympathies with the people it is effecting, haven’t put any independent thought into it, likely don’t appreciate real, observable and rapidly-advancing trends, and so have an opinion and attitude formed from vastly superficial and inferior inputs – Hollywood and class signaling.

    It’s also why I go about identifying with Egyptians; when Saudi Arabia is perfectly available for me to identify with.

    LMAO. This is easily the funniest thing that you have ever said. I’ll bet you use an Egyptian passport, don’t you?

    What sort of mutt in his right mind would identify with his Saudi half? I (and you know this perfectly well) was referring to oil money, NOT Saudi national identity.

    BTW, if there had been a limited bubble in space-time – perhaps, as big as one person’s head – where anti-racism was absent, on 9/11, hundreds of thousands of lives, many priceless archeological objects, trillions of dollars and hundreds of billions of man-hours would have been saved, not to speak of the infinite indignities that normal, civilized people have been subjected to, or the surveillance state.

    In a nutshell, it all happened because people like you are quick to take offense at the idea that they are not part of the same civilization, and, maybe, that “my kind shouldn’t be over there” is as true an axiom as “your kind shouldn’t be over here.”

  789. It’s interesting that AaronB and AP both find something of value within the thought process and books written by DBH. Reason enough, at least for me, to pick something up written by the man and read it! 🙂

    • Agree: Barbarossa, RSDB
  790. @Dmitry
    @LatW


    he is just an observer but the problem Russian population believes this.
     
    About AnoninTN, if I remember, he is from Ukraine, from Lvov. Also Here Be Dragon was from Ukraine, but then he was living in Poland. So, our idiosyncratic forum - the users of the forum supporting the invasion, are those users from Ukraine (except Beckow is from Czechoslovakia).

    Why pull up Moldova

     

    Well, Moldova was part of the USSR. They supplied everyone with cognac. Maybe there could be the alcoholic version of the conspiracy theory "they want to invade Iraq for oil".

    “Online UN roundtable”, it’s hilarious! You could be the attache for the Russo-Jewish
     
    I guess this job means arguing to support Prigozhin and Solovyov. Maybe I can be Costa Rica.

    provide these infantry fighting vehicles, you have to provide tanks because these vehicles

     

    It's already a significant escalation, although perhaps it will be many months before they will be fighting in the war.

    In the Second World War, they would have probably called these "light tanks". And they have nightvision optics, very long-range anti-tank missiles etc.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Vmikwrhc5E


    that they are boiling the frog slowly. They have to provide these weapons packages in increments to avert a rapid escalation, to let everyone adjust

     

    And they change the discussion to the next weapon, so Biden says "no don't worry we wouldn't give Ukraine those weapons". Then six months later it will be the next weapon, slowly building the parts of an army. I remember in the summer it was talking about giving 155mm howitzers (artillery) to Ukraine.

    monstrous as this sounds, you have to delve deeper to find the good and the beautiful in his philosophy
     
    Sure, of course these are great German writers, which are famous for a reason.

    Replies: @AP, @LatW

    About AnoninTN, if I remember, he is from Ukraine, from Lvov. Also Here Be Dragon was from Ukraine

    They are both representatives of the so called “Russian world” and both supporters of Kremlin’s policies, including looking for excuses for what is currently going on. And you know this very well.

    Moldova supplied everyone with cognac. Maybe there could be the alcoholic version of the conspiracy theory “they want to invade Iraq for oil”.

    That’s right. They could just go there and get drunk on Moldovan wine. From what I vaguely recall, there were also extraordinarily sweet pears that were grown in Moldova. In real contrast to our sour Northern European cherries – I heard their chereshnya is also much fuller and sweeter. So I think we have a case here.

    Maybe I can be Costa Rica.

    Well, at this point anything beats being back in Matushka and getting mobilized to be sent to get himars’ed. So Costa Rica it is! 🙂 You could go birdwatching and find the most amazing, colorful parrots there and forget about the rest of the world. 🙂

    [MORE]

    [Bradley’s] would have probably called these “light tanks”. And they have nightvision optics, very long-range anti-tank missiles etc.

    Yes, they are like “half tanks” (and they look so damn cool). The main goal is to protect the soldier. I hope the Ukrainians can handle their maintenance (I’m sure they can, knowing them).

    I heard some Swedish tank even has temperature control inside of it, insane.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @LatW


    “Russian world” and both
     
    They are from Ukraine, it is their native part of earth, even if the political organization they were born in was the USSR. You can never escape the place you come from as a child. It's one of the deep parts of the personality.

    You go to a new country, at night you still dream you are suddenly back in the old home. Even if I would emigrate to Arizona, I probably would not dream about cactuses.


    supporters of Kremlin
     
    Here Be Dragon was copy/pasting posts from Boris Rozhin (this is a very low quality Kremlin propaganda they spread on the internet in Russia), so some of his posts were Kremlin propaganda/anti-American propaganda. But he was from Ukraine so his point of view will be related to real world at least in terms of its motives.

    Our forum is not a good sample, but AnoninTN and Here Be Dragon are examples similar trauma from Ukraine, as both have the same hatred of nationalism. AnoninTN also says he has hatred of empire (this is rhetoric from Lenin).

    "Superhero (or supervillain) origin story" of Here Be Dragon were those fights with Ukrainian villagers.
    https://www.unz.com/akarlin/open-thread-190-russia-ukraine/#comment-5389482


    like “half tanks” (and they look so damn cool). The main goal is to protect the soldier

     

    I think they could still be destroyed by artillery.

    But it's authentic American equipment, used by the American army in 1991. They have more advanced sensors than any vehicles in the Russian army. And America can continue increasing the temperature of the water. Or they could continue allowing Ukraine to fight, just using old equipment from the 1970s American warehouses.

    There is the strange incompetence of Putin, that he has become enemies of advanced countries, in exchange for valueless anti-Western rhetoric. If he wanted to win the postsoviet border conflicts, it's a significant mistake to motivate powerful countries to support your enemy.*

    Even if he wanted to invade Ukraine, Prokhorov would have been more successful. Yeltsin would have been more successful. If you want to win the postsoviet border conflicts, you would use pro-Western rhetoric and diplomatic ambiguity.

    Although also a dictator who is focused on postsoviet border conflict instead of internal development, A Aliev is an example of the more disciplined and strategic leader than Putin. He prepares the diplomatic space before the war. Instead of valueless anti-Western rhetoric for years, invited NATO for exercises.


    -
    *Unless you want the postsoviet border conflict with the poorest country in Europe, to look like the Iran-Iraq war (already too late - it looks like the Iran-Iraq war). Aliev was fighting for 6 weeks.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09TnwicyQx8


    @AP


    Ukrainian from Ukraine posting here was angry at me
     
    AnoninTN can write himself. But he says he is not just from Ukraine, but has been Ukrainian speaking with his grandparents, who were Ukrainian speaking people.
    https://www.unz.com/akarlin/ukro-khazars-trying-to-appropriate-russian-culture/#comment-4149596

    He is from a multi-generational Ukrainian speaking family (i.e. ethnic Ukrainian) and was born in Ukraine.


    carpetbaggers, it seems)
     
    Well, it's famous that he hates the bluegrass music of Tennessee, but this adjective doesn't sound so negative - they supported the right of all American citizens to vote https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carpetbagger

    Here Be Dragon is from Ukraine but has no Ukrainian roots and is a Russian-speaker of Russian, Jewish and Romanian descent. Essentially, a Homo Sovieticus.

     

    "Homo Sovieticus" refers to a mentality, it's not related to nationality.

    Ukrainian nationalism was the mainstream and official project of the Ukraine from the 1990s. If AnoninTN and Here Be Dragon were children a couple generations later, with some regional change , they would likely have been in the Ukrainian nation-building project.


    and is a Russian-speaker

     

    Most of the Ukrainian military are speaking Russian.

    @Songbird


    he Soviet Union often chose where people would live, and often assigned people outside their ethnic republics, in order to purposefully erode national
     
    There are times when nationalities are settled disproportionately to certain regions. In the 19th century, vast numbers of the Ukrainians are settled in the Far East and Siberia. In Soviet times, engineers are thrown all around. But overall, for the majority of people, it's more the opposite trend. In Soviet times most people are unnaturally fixed as there is an internal closed borders system. There was far more cultural or national homogeneity in the local area. They maintained most people in the same region.

    It's in the last thirty years there is a lot of internal movements. This also increases the accents in some cities, because millions of villagers have been flooding to cities. So, people talk about the "peculiar pronunciation", but accents are usually a lot more strong with the new people flooding into the city.

    Replies: @LatW, @songbird

  791. @AnonfromTN
    @Beckow


    We don’t know how the war will go, we only know the disposition of forces. Based on that certain odds can be derived, Kiev has maybe 10-15% chance of succeeding, a nuclear war is about 10-%, but the most likely outcome of 75-80% is Russia winning and dictating the terms of peace. Washington knows this quite well – they would like to prolong the war since it costs them very little.
     
    This is the war between the US and the RF. While your estimates of probable outcomes in Ukraine are about correct, this war won’t end with Ukraine. Ukraine is not a player, it’s just a disposable pawn used by its masters to achieve their ends. Ukies don’t understand that, but that’s their problem: they are paying for their stupidity with hundreds of lives every day. The luckiest ones become POWs.

    Additional disposable pawns that the empire wouldn’t hesitate to sacrifice for its geostrategic objectives within 1-3 years are Baltic microstates and Poland. Romania, Moldova, and some other Eastern European countries might end up thrown under the bus, too. It’s a bit sad that they will disappear. Then again, they have only themselves to blame.

    My prediction is that the empire will balk when the question of sacrificing Germany arises. Not because it cares about Germans, but because it cares about damage control. If Putin remains at the helm in Russia, the empire is likely to be allowed to keep Germany. Than there won’t be a global war. If by that time someone else is the RF president, all bets are off: considering prevailing public mood in Russia and the direction in which it is changing, anyone who has a chance will be a lot more anti-Western and combative than Putin and other people of his generation (which, broadly speaking, happens to be my generation). I look at the prospect optimistically (Russian style): being dead, we won’t have any problems.

    Replies: @A123, @Greasy William, @LatW, @Beckow

    …I look at the prospect optimistically (Russian style): being dead, we won’t have any problems.

    Well, it is not exactly something to look forward to. Some here critizise me for giving the odds of a nuclear exchange (of some kind, could be tactical) at around 10%. That may be too high today, but in 3 or 6 months it will feel about right. Events with 10% probability don’t happen often – but they do happen. And the most-likely epicenter would be in Ukraine-Poland-Balts. One would think that would cool down the fever, but so far they are chomping at a chance to go all the way like teens at a rumba party.

    This is the war between the US and the RF.

    It is, but in a very contemporary way it also isn’t: Ukies can be thrown under the bus, and so can the assorted Poles, Latvians, Romanians, etc…US has relatively little skin in this game. That suggests that when things get really hot, it will be Washington that will step back. But maybe not.

    • Replies: @Greasy William
    @Beckow


    That suggests that when things get really hot, it will be Washington that will step back. But maybe not.
     
    The RAND article indicates that the people behind the scenes in the US are looking to bail. We already know that Milley wants out.

    The problem is that there are domestic political considerations. Biden's base hates/fears Russia with a passion and Trump's approaching return to Facebook and Twitter will only increase white liberal existential angst. Biden really cannot go into the 2024 election having lost Ukraine to Russia.

    Replies: @Beckow

  792. @Yahya
    @songbird


    Actually, I said that I thought the Chinese tourists were especially appreciative of the beauty of the building.
     
    You said no such thing. But have it your way.

    parroting the regime values of the West because doing so makes you feel better than non-oil Arabs.
     
    Oh yes; I’m so enthrall to the regime values of the West that I hang around the notoriously woke website UNZ review; go around discussing various group IQs; believe strongly in the validity of HBD; have said previously that Rwanda’s developmental potential is capped in comparison to North Korea due to genetic factors. I constantly parrot regime words like “intersectionality”, “lived experiences”, “toxic masculinity” and blame racial inequalities in outcomes on “white racism”.

    All these wokeisms that I have spouted make me feel superior to “non-oil Arabs” like Syrians, Palestinians, Lebanese, Maghrebis whom I have praised highly several times and compared favorably to Saudi Arabians and other “oil Arabs” like myself. It’s also why I go about identifying with Egyptians; when Saudi Arabia is perfectly available for me to identify with. Because my real inner desire is to separate myself from non-oil Arabs.

    I don’t need to volunteer in some public school in Roxbury to express a distaste for racism in a genuine manner. It is sufficient to have experienced it myself and dislike the perpetrators of (genuine) racism as being obnoxious and distasteful.

    Replies: @songbird, @songbird

    I constantly parrot regime words like “intersectionality”, “lived experiences”, “toxic masculinity” and blame racial inequalities in outcomes on “white racism”.

    You still use the biggest and most powerful regime vocab: “Nazi” and “racism.” How do you think the whole thing started?

    Make no mistake: you’re acting as a regime enforcer here, trying to shift dialogue away from criticism of mass migration, the regime’s pet groups and foot soldiers, or from their rhetorical techniques. You recently attacked me for having a problem with the phrase “white British”, as if there was something morally wrong with me criticizing some new-age regime term that seeks to deracinate people and steal their identity, and villainize them.

    You think that makes you a rebel against the regime? To be blunt: you’d be indistinguishable from a member of the West’s Fifty Cent Party, if there was such a thing, and not merely bots, true believers, and full-salaried employees.

    • Agree: S
    • Replies: @Yahya
    @songbird


    I (and you know this perfectly well) was referring to oil money, NOT Saudi national identity.
     
    No, I didn’t know you were referring to oil money. I thought you were at least not dumb enough to assume my family made its money from oil; considering that oil in Saudi Arabia is mostly a state-owned endeavor; and that only royals directly benefit from oil revenues (and we are far from being royals or anything close to them). But apparently you are not knowledgeable enough about these basic facts; so I will tell you clearly that my family made zero money off oil, we don’t even own shares in ARAMCO now that it has been listed. I’ve mentioned the business we are involved in to you back in AE’s blog, but you must have forgotten. It’s as far from oil and gas as you can get.

    Also, just fyi, there are lots of rich Egyptians as well. Some of my Egyptian friends’ parents are several times wealthier than my own; so you shouldn’t assume any Arab with money would automatically derives it from oil; or indeed even be a Gulf Arab. The wealthy Egyptians and Levantines tend to be more understated in their behavior than Gulf Arabs; whom if you have visited London and Paris, would know tend to be conspicuous. You once insulted my mother by insinuating that my father “married down a few rungs in the socio-economic ladder”; but you are an ignoramus who doesn’t understand that not everyone native Egyptian is poor or of low socio-economic status. In fact; my mother tends to be the snobby one out of my parents; and sometimes mocks my father from a position of haughtiness (though this has more to do with family lineage rather than wealth).


    To paraphrase, “You are just a Mick, a LARPer – you can’t object to the destruction of Western Civilization because it is not yours.”
     
    Stop paraphrasing (viz. put words in my mouth); you always twist my words and construct strawmen.

    You think I am insulting blacks? Very few that are on here to insult. Don’t think this would be the right place for it.

    Say that I am motivated by low impulses, instead of love for something.
     

    Yes this comment of yours was motivated by nothing but the most benign; saintly intentions.

    songbird says:
    April 26, 2019 at 8:09 pm GMT • 3.8 years ago • 100 Words ↑
    @German_reader
    Let’s suppose, you merely took Europeans and set them down in America. Would they not say they loved diversity, once some nigger accosted them in the airport with the question?

    Once, I was accosted with some formulation like “Sir, you don’t look racist, can I interview you as part of my college project about diversity?” Did I tell him that he was ape accosting me mere feet from where one of my ancestors died building the city that gorillas like him had invaded and defiled. That only 10% of blacks should be educated past the 6th grade? That they should all be sent back to Africa? No, I politely told him that I did not have the time, which was true enough, though I would I have told him that even if I were an old pensioner.

    • Replies: @German_reader

    https://www.unz.com/akarlin/open-thread-74/#comment-3178985

     

    Because we all know how normal it is to call someone an "ape" and "gorilla" for the sinful act of politely asking for a college assignment interview; something no-one proper human being does - only primates.

    None of this is insulting to blacks at all. Only a woke vegan enthrall to the regime can possibly take offense at such a benevolent sentiment.

    Replies: @songbird

  793. @AnonfromTN
    @AP


    The Ukrainian people did not want to surrender their independence, so they chose to fight.
     
    If the Ukrainian people “chose to fight”, why did the regime have to resort to forced mobilization, catching males in the streets, shops, churches, and even at the funeral procession of one already mobilized and sent straight to Bandera by the Russian army? Why are “mobilized” sent to the army training camps w/o letting them even to visit their homes? Why do Ukrainian males dress in women’s clothes to go shopping for groceries if they “chose to fight”? Looks like those who “chose to fight” and their conscription-age children actually do not fight. The regime forcibly mobilizes those who did not make this choice and sends them to their death.

    Replies: @Mikel, @AP, @Beckow, @Wokechoke

    AP is quite hopeless – like a true fanatic as his side loses he doubles down, bores us with pointless sloganeering, basically lies about everything to make himself feel better. The Kishinev part is very amusing – Lviv is roughly about the same, but Moldova has better wine and prettier women. But let him dream, what else can he do at this point?

  794. @Yahya
    @Barbarossa


    I passed along my newest of the articles that I write for the local paper via email. If you would like to keep getting them I can keep you on the email list
     
    I checked my inbox and spam; and didn’t find the email. Can you please re-send? I read one article you posted a while back (the Irish satire); was interested to read more but your name on the header doesn’t link to a comprehensive page of your articles.

    Even with subtitles it is extremely immersive despite, or perhaps because of, the leisurely pacing.
     
    War & Peace is one of the few movies where slow pacing was both appropriate and conducive to enhancing the viewers cinematic experience. There have been a few others like Space Odyessy, Lawrence of Arabia, or The Two Popes; but these are far and few in between. My beef with this technique is not that I dislike slow pacing; but that certain pretentious eurotrash directors seem to deliberately employ the snail’s pace to make their movie seem more sophisticated than it is. They are blackmailing critics and viewers into rating the film highly (despite not liking it) by subliminaly threatening them with looking unsophisticated if they don’t. It is this emotional blackmail that makes me despise the eurotrash director; especially the French ones who leverage their nation’s prestige to produce garbage which everyone hates to watch; but is nonetheless praised through the roof by cowardly critics and gullible film students.

    But War & Peace really is a masterpiece of a movie. Everything about it; the plot, characters, casting, cinematography, dialogue etc. is of the highest degree of excellence. If the world was just; it would’ve been placed in the Sight & Sound list of top 100 movies of all-time. But alas; the critics choose to worship at the alter of Goddard, Bergman and Fellini. I think the main reason why War & Peace succeeds so well is because; despite Bondarchuck’s high-brow inclinations; he was given lavish funding by the Soviet government and in turn paid more attention to the entertainment factor in order to reach a wider audience and give the state a return on investment. Nothing is more magnificent than a movie that is at once entertaining and intelligent. And the Soviet Union deserves credit for funding a blockbuster that maintained concern for artistic value.

    I’ve watched another of Bondarchuck’s movies called My Uncle Vanya; based on a Chekhov play; and while it was intelligent and sophisticated (it could hardly be otherwise; given the author); it failed to entertain and was thus resigned to obscurity; only to be watched by people like me, who may be regarded as an esoteric sect. This is the problem with Soviet and Eastern European movies in the general; they’re not stupid, certainly far more intelligent than the average Hollywood movie; but they fail at the basic function of keeping viewers engaged. It’s no wonder hardly anyone outside Eastern Europe watches any of that stuff. Again; the directors coming out of Anglo-America do a better job at walking the fine line between entertainment and sophistication; and that’s why they achieve persistent fame, accolades and viewership.

    Replies: @Emil Nikola Richard, @Yevardian

    Goddard, Bergman

    Mentioning junk like Goddard in the same sentence or paragraph as the god Bergman is extremely unfair. I’m not much of a fan of Fellini (especially his late films) outside of his one masterpiece La Dolce Vita, but again, not fair to put him in the same punching bag as Goddard or some other of the most insufferable New Wave directors, like Resnais.
    Anyhow, it might interest you to know that Bergman strongly disliked Goddard and most of the French New Wave (and Buñuel) as well.

    My beef with this technique is not that I dislike slow pacing; but that certain pretentious eurotrash directors seem to deliberately employ the snail’s pace to make their movie seem more sophisticated than it is.

    I wonder what you’d think of Antonioni, he was notoriously divisive of audiences for this, but I think he employed it very well, until his films started entering the territory of self-parody, as Tarkovsky’s last two features did.

    Sure, some directors exploit the usage of glacial pace to impart to their films a bogus profundity (Theo Angelopoulos, Lars Von Trier come to mind), but don’t forget it’s also a matter of personal taste. Since you get annoyed at relatively harmless posters like songbird, your constant refrain of ‘Eurotrash’ is a bit hypocritical. I don’t think you’d like it if people referred to.. (actually, I don’t know any Arab directors offhand) as a ‘dirty Arab’ or such.

    This is the problem with Soviet and Eastern European movies in the general; they’re not stupid, certainly far more intelligent than the average Hollywood movie; but they fail at the basic function of keeping viewers engaged.

    Funny that you’d say that, because the USSR and the Eastern Bloc in general mandated a policy of ‘Socialist Realism’, whose theory purposely eschewed symbolism or ‘pretentiousness’ generally in their film industry until the late 1980s (with a thaw in early the 70s).

    I’d still highly recommend the Soviet coming-of-age films ‘Courier’, ‘I Am Twenty’ and ‘Scarecrow’ and if you haven’t seen them already, all of those show the USSR could make intelligent and entertaining youth films as good as any from the USA when they wanted.

    The more recent ‘The Return’ by Zvyagintsev is another great film about childhood by Zvyagintsev, before he just started entering the territory of misery-porn (and inadvertently delighting critics of Russia, though I don’t think that’s his intention) with ‘Leviathan’.

    • Replies: @Yahya
    @Yevardian


    Since you get annoyed at relatively harmless posters like songbird, your constant refrain of ‘Eurotrash’ is a bit hypocritical. I don’t think you’d like it if people referred to.. (actually, I don’t know any Arab directors offhand) as a ‘dirty Arab’ or such.
     
    Well "Eurotrash" is defined by wiki as "a term for certain Europeans, particularly those perceived to be socialites, stylish and affluent." Not really meant to be a racial insult like "white trash"; just a humorous label for a certain type of European; of which many of these directors fit the bill. In fact, i've seen the term "eurotrash" applied in the context of movies before; which is how I got the idea of calling these pretentious directors by that label. Not meant to insult Europeans as a whole.

    As for songbird; well he is only harmless insofar as he is a weakling. But his behavior and attitudes are vile and irritating. My beef with him goes way back; and though I admit to starting many of our current exchanges; he was the one who fired the first shot. So I don't feel sorry (sometimes, but not most of the time) for insulting him harshly. He deserves it.


    I wonder what you’d think of Antonioni
     
    Haven't watched his movies.

    Funny that you’d say that, because the USSR and the Eastern Bloc in general mandated a policy of ‘Socialist Realism’, whose theory purposely eschewed symbolism or ‘pretentiousness’ generally in their film industry until the late 1980s (with a thaw in early the 70s).
     
    Well my objection to Eastern European movies aren't that they are pretentious; but that they are dull and boring. I'm obviously talking about tendencies; i've enjoyed a fair number of entertaining Soviet/EE movies.

    Maybe I should have gotten his email in case, although I don’t think he appreciated my appreciation of utu’s ‘anti-German cunt rants’ as the best comedy posted on these Open Threads since Karlin left.
     
    Lol, I told German_twat.... er... Reader before that utu's insults were comedic gold; probably the most enjoyable comments to read for combining sheer creativity and pithiness. But I think GR is like me in that he takes insults personally; so I can understand why he disliked utu. He was admirably willing to concede utu's positive traits though; but still hedged by calling him "stupid" and "insufferable" after utu had left.

    Funnily enough, I admired both these commentors; and thought they were basically decent and intelligent people. So it was interesting watching them call each other "cunt", "twat", “mental case”, “lunatic”, “absurdly stupid”, “deeply pathetic”, and my favorite “imbecile who should have been locked away in a institutional cell”. But then even Benjamin Franklin got into a feud with John Adams.

    'Give them great meals of beef and iron and steel, they will eat like wolves and fight like devils.' - Shakespeare

    Replies: @LatW, @Ivashka the fool

    , @AP
    @Yevardian


    The more recent ‘The Return’ by Zvyagintsev is another great film about childhood by Zvyagintsev, before he just started entering the territory of misery-porn (and inadvertently delighting critics of Russia, though I don’t think that’s his intention) with ‘Leviathan’.
     
    His misery-porn movies such as Leviathan and Elena weren't bad either, though Loveless was too much IMO.

    I read somewhere that the recently popular Korean film Parasite was supposedly based on Elena.

    Replies: @Ivashka the fool

  795. @Yahya
    @AP


    Here Be Dragon is from Ukraine but has no Ukrainian roots and is a Russian-speaker of Russian, Jewish and Romanian descent. Essentially, a Homo Sovieticus.
     
    I wonder where the Dragon Man has gone off too. Probably to a hookah bar to smoke hash-infused shishah; or perhaps he has overdosed and departed this Earth. I think his appalling behavior earned him the disrespect and ire of most commentors towards the end; and that may have driven him off. But he did provide some comic relief with his over-the-top ethnic insults and love-hate relationship with his Jewish ancestry. I laughed most when; after months of pro-Arab and anti-Jewish comments he made; he abruptly switched to calling Arabs “human asses with no soul”; not fit to dine with Jews; after getting into a spat with me. Very funny stuff.

    The mindless pro-Soviet attitudes of some Russian boomers was also interesting to see. All these Sovok insults have a basis in reality.

    Where have German_Reader and Ivashka gone? Just when the blog was picking up steam; after the return of Bashibuzuk, Talha, Blinky Bill and AaronB; it appears to be losing two of the top commentors. Very sad really.

    Replies: @Yevardian

    German_Reader

    I’m afraid he may he departed this site permanently after a few threads filled mostly with anti-vax poasters, Sher Singh spamming his Indo-Aryan schtick and the endlessly rehashed points over Ukraine.
    I couldn’t be bothered posting my booklist after he left since it would have basically have been a reply solely directed for him, honestly.

    Maybe I should have gotten his email in case, although I don’t think he appreciated my appreciation of utu’s ‘anti-German cunt rants’ as the best comedy posted on these Open Threads since Karlin left.

    • Replies: @Sher Singh
    @Yevardian


    Sher Singh spamming his Indo-Aryan schtick
     
    If you're going to hate non-Christian religion then do it openly.
    Don't accuse me of being ethno-centric when I'm the least of the lot.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11689339/Indian-brawl-erupts-Melbournes-Fed-Square-Sikh-attacking-Hindu-nationalists.html


    Being a non-superstitious scientist, I don’t think duels solve anything. Depending on who is more ruthless and a better shot, the person who is right or the one who is wrong can be killed. The truth can be established by a duel no more than it can be established by voting.
     
    In contests of strength, "truth" is the refuge of the weak.

    Replies: @Mikel, @Emil Nikola Richard

  796. @LatW
    @Beckow


    A thoughtful response, thanks.
     
    Thanks, Beckow, I appreciate your intellect, even if I may not agree with you in all cases. Nobody is happy with the war, it's probably a once in a 300 years type of nightmare. Definitely a historic development of massive proportions.

    Fandom is a form of fashion – and as we all know, any fashion has an average longevity of around three years.
     
    True, there is an element of moment in time, it could pass, and support could decline somewhat. What matters is the relationships that were formed that weren't there previously - the volunteer networks, political communication, consolidation of the West, the changed perceptions.

    It is as likely that Ukies will be cursed for their intransigence and lowered EU econ. standards.
     
    Of course, there is an economic burden. Why blame only Ukraine for that? Btw, it looks like inflation was bound to happen anyway, there was too much QE. Wouldn't you at least agree with that? Of course, the war makes it much worse. It's very unfortunate. Also, even if Ukraine is supported now, with time Ukraine will have to figure out how to start making money again.

    How is the Russian world shrinking if it has just grown with acquisitions in Ukraine?
     
    The territorial gains, while very real, are still fragile. Further mobilization will be required to hold them down and to create a buffer. They have managed to take some of the population (including by kidnapping children). So I would agree that they do have some considerable gains (but significant losses as well). If we look at the population in the East, it has been reduced. Those who fled West, into Central and Western parts of Ukraine, their children will eventually become Ukrainian speaking. Those who fled into the EU will speak Ukrainian / Russian, and their children will speak host languages as well, and there is a risk of assimilation. They definitely will not be Russian or Russian speaking in the future (on the contrary, they will hold in their memory the idea of Russia as the violator of their lives). Land is good to have but the Russians have squandered a lot of Russophone population. Then again, if this population are Russophone Ukrainians who hate Russians anyway, then it may not be worth it for them, on the contrary, they would want to eliminate them. I heard that the Russians want to set up a large number of concentration camps in East Ukraine. This is actually very significant with the future in mind, since essentially we will be living next door to that (if they succeed). If the French and Germans will ignore that, I won't speak to them anymore. Think about what this means for human rights.

    The very real plans for Nato in Ukraine have already been crushed, another massive defeat for Washington.
     
    We are talking about two different things. NATO as a political organization? Yes, it might be that the eventual membership is still questionable (but I'm not sure if it is entirely out of the question long term). But the de facto situation is that Ukraine has become a full on ally of the West. It is still an unstable situation, of course. But Ukrainians have a considerable amount of control. Of course, I'm not denying that Ukraine's losses have been immense.

    E,g. Intermarium with Odessa that can be easily blockaded is not much of a mini-empire.
     
    It is not an ideal situation and it would have to be strengthened, but it is not nothing. It is still quite a large chunk of land and resources.

    Or Lviv with all those Kiev-Kharkiv refugees will still be a poor city shedding more able people to the West – another Kishinev, or if you prefer Sophia. Those are not prosperous places.
     
    They may be shedding people, but those are generally not small places. Lviv and Kyiv have quite a bit of potential. In my book, they don't have to be super prosperous (although they could be more prosperous than before), what is important is that they retain the Ukrainian culture. And are amicable to Poland, et al. Which will be the case long term.

    We don’t know how the war will go, we only know the disposition of forces.
     
    There are some unknowns still, such as the state of the Russian troops who are arriving now, the real state of the Wagner company, the ideas that the Ukrainian General Staff are working on as to the next steps (this is a military secret and one can only model possible scenarios).

    a nuclear war is about 10-%
     
    I'm not sure it's that high.

    general Pavel is a former commie who studied in Moscow, and “president” of Czechia is a ceremonial position
     
    Many wanted to study in Moscow back in those days. It looks like he joined the Communist party in 1985, which is late (not good, of course), but not that late. Things moved very fast back then and 1985 was not 1989. Yes, it's not great, but one had to join the party to have a career. It looks like he comes from a military family, I don't see how he could've had a military career beyond a certain very low level without joining the party. This is just for career purposes. But I may be wrong. And, no, it is not great, but it's been over 30 years now.. we need to think about how to leave this all behind (even if we learn lessons from it and remain vigilant).

    As to the ceremonial position, it really depends on how he will carry himself. If he is charismatic with novel ideas, awesome, he could have impact. If he is more mellow and serves a unifying role, then that's good, too. I don't know much about him but he has made some reasonable, realistic remarks. There is some realistic language that I like about NATO having become too much of a "political" organization:

    "NATO over the years has become probably too politically correct in our own way that we were circling around the problems without being able to identify true nature. I was facing that situation even in a military committee when I asked my colleagues to come back to the basics and speak as soldiers, not as politicians or diplomats. At least around the table so that we understand each other."

    Replies: @S, @Beckow

    …Nobody is happy with the war, it’s probably a once in a 300 years type of nightmare.

    So why is taking place? It is very clear that Ukie national mania (and also others like Poles, Latvians, etc…) and the insane plan to put Nato on Russia’s border in Ukraine is the reason. Russian reaction was kind of inevitable, what else they could have done?

    de facto situation is that Ukraine has become a full on ally of the West. It is still an unstable situation

    Kiev was a de facto ally for the last 8 years – nothing has changed in that. What has changed is that Nato will be not be in Ukraine ‘politically’ and will not build bases there or put missiles in Russia’s border 2-3 minutes from Moscow. It won’t happen now unless Russia is defeated (unlikely) and it was definitely going to happen if Russia did nothing. You will deny it, people will lie about it – but it was the reality. Nato lost Ukraine and there is not much they can do about it.

    Regarding Pavel: he was a commie in military intelligence, so was his father. They fronted the 1968 invasion – Pavel openly admits it and says it was a mistake. The headline in a local paper was: “Has Czechia finally got over its anti-commie sentiment?” Both Babis and Pavel were commies and not small ones – they are who they are because they were commies in the 80’s. The difference between their policies is non-existent – nothing will change, Czechs will continue sitting on the fence and occasionally throw rhetorical bombs, mostly at Russia because it is easier. Then they will have a beer and forget about it.

    • Replies: @Yevardian
    @Beckow

    Well, I think you're more than half-right in your overall perspective on the diplomatic background, but I don't see how any person observing the events of the past year could see Russia's military performance as anything but disastrous, and an avoidable catastrophe (more so for Ukraine of course) for Russia in general.
    I went through the same dread phase re Russia's future as a great power that Karlin appears to going through now near the beginning of the war, so at least I've been consistent in that. It was pretty clear when it became evident that Azerbaijan appeared to have a better planned and structured military than the superpower it was recently a part of.

    Replies: @Beckow, @Ivashka the fool

    , @LatW
    @Beckow


    Russian reaction was kind of inevitable, what else they could have done?
     
    Beckow, your whole argument since day one has been that everyone, literally everyone in the region has to suck it up, except RusFed. What you don't realize is that a lot had been already tolerated to keep the peace, the West had already closed their eyes to many things. Russia simply went too far this time. It simply turned out that you can abuse and push the Chechen and Georgian around, but you can't do that to a Ukrainian. It's that simple (and everything that it entails). Russia simply should've adjusted her spectacles to realize that she is not the USSR and never will be.

    Of course, from Russia's POV Ukraine became "anti-Russia" (this is partly an issue of perception, for Russia anything that is not fully compliant to their worldview is either a Nazi or some "anti-Russia"). And such was not acceptable so they chose to use force. But with the use of force comes risk, even for someone who is supposedly strong. You never know how the chips will fall. Every time you cross that threshold, the rules change because "war is the father of all things", as Heraclitus said, and you cannot control everything at that point. Especially Fortuna.

    It could also be that Russia opened a real Pandora's box this time, if you see what is starting to happen around Iran. Iran may have made a fatal mistake as well, by providing the Russians with weapons to murder young Ukrainian girls in their beds. Did they really lack enemies that they had to make more? We'll see where that ends...


    what else they could have done?
     
    I already told you what they could have done - strengthen themselves from within. Place their missiles strategically (which they already did in many locations). Not waste resources by sending money out of the country. Reflect internally and understand that 1991 was final. That what they had before Feb 24 was already a lot and that to shepard that requires a lot of work. Not live in illusions about the past grandeur and especially not apply those illusions to today's capabilities (this was the fatal mistake). To understand that it is only possible to win the Ukrainian nationalism is by being "the bigger guy". And even then this nationalism would remain, but Russia would not care since Russia would have a more attractive version of existence.

    What has changed is that Nato will be not be in Ukraine ‘politically’ and will not build bases there or put missiles in Russia’s border 2-3 minutes from Moscow.

     

    I'm not sure it's 2-3 minutes but maybe 10-15. And those missiles are not even built yet. However, such missiles could serve as a deterrent and may actually be good and could have kept the war at bay, if Ukraine had them.

    Anyway, even without the NATO bases there, the relationship between RU and UA was totally screwed. As long as the relationship is in such a state, nothing really makes a difference. The way they talk about each other publicly now is much much worse than how we talk about the Russian in the privacy of our homes. You believe that Ukraine could've been pacified, but it's not that easy - this has been going on for hundreds of years. And now we have modern technology.


    Nato lost Ukraine and there is not much they can do about it.
     
    Does it matter? The West will help Ukraine long term. Even if the US departs at some point, others will help. Like in that Beatles song "I'll get by with a little help from my friends". :)

    Both Babis and Pavel were commies and not small ones – they are who they are because they were commies in the 80’s.
     
    I understand that part very well, trust me. We had such types too and it's exactly how you say - they got to be where they are because of who / what they were. Not just politics but even business.

    Decommunzation was never complete. You couldn't complete it a 100% because then there would be too many to discard.

    But time will heal everything - time is the great healer.


    The difference between their policies is non-existent – nothing will change, Czechs will continue sitting on the fence and occasionally throw rhetorical bombs, mostly at Russia because it is easier. Then they will have a beer and forget about it.

     

    It's alright. I don't have any major expectations. I just liked some of his more realistic statements and I like that someone with a military background became president. Of course, my favorite military type is a patriot from the national guard type of an organization, not a NATO bureaucrat, but it's alright. :)

    Replies: @Beckow

  797. @AnonfromTN
    @songbird


    BTW, antiracist Arabs are so rare.
     
    Interestingly, while the “woke” BS in the West is a pack of lies, there are places on Earth where you can have white privilege. Based on my personal experience, I can name Indonesia, Malaysia, and Kenya. In these countries, if you are white, you can do no wrong. They let you go anywhere w/o questions, whereas they always question locals going into upscale hotels and similar places. Indonesians clearly feel that as a white person (orang puti in their language) you are within your rights, but they resent Chinese and Japanese tourists and say bad things about them. I don’t think this is healthy, but that’s how it is.

    BTW, in Indonesian pharmacies at least half of the products are "whitening creams". Looks silly, as their chicks are a lot prettier the color they are. Many are prettier than most white gals.

    Replies: @songbird

    but they resent Chinese and Japanese tourists and say bad things about them. I don’t think this is healthy

    There’s probably a certain amount of surviving antagonism towards the Japanese because of WW2. There were mass expulsions of hundreds of thousands of them in many places, after the war. I guess they never (maybe Vietnam excepted?) had the same excuse to use against the Chinese.

    I’m not entirely unsympathetic to SE Asians. Obviously, one wants to feel in control of one’s own destiny. It is as equally true that the Chinese contribute a lot to the local economies and there is a large benefit to that, but at the same time, it is easy to take that and decouple it turn it into a rabid drive to maximize wealth, at the cost of national identity.

    I think it is something that requires a tight balance and a lot of formalism. I’m not sure that there is a state that quite pulls it off, but I don’t think it is necessarily totally impossible for such a place to exist. I think part of the key is developing a formal relationship between two peoples, rather than just promoting diversity or lack of identity.

    • Replies: @Yahya
    @songbird


    I think it is something that requires a tight balance and a lot of formalism. I’m not sure that there is a state that quite pulls it off,
     
    Obviously you've never heard of Malaysia.
  798. @Beckow
    @LatW


    ...Nobody is happy with the war, it’s probably a once in a 300 years type of nightmare.
     
    So why is taking place? It is very clear that Ukie national mania (and also others like Poles, Latvians, etc...) and the insane plan to put Nato on Russia's border in Ukraine is the reason. Russian reaction was kind of inevitable, what else they could have done?

    de facto situation is that Ukraine has become a full on ally of the West. It is still an unstable situation
     
    Kiev was a de facto ally for the last 8 years - nothing has changed in that. What has changed is that Nato will be not be in Ukraine 'politically' and will not build bases there or put missiles in Russia's border 2-3 minutes from Moscow. It won't happen now unless Russia is defeated (unlikely) and it was definitely going to happen if Russia did nothing. You will deny it, people will lie about it - but it was the reality. Nato lost Ukraine and there is not much they can do about it.

    Regarding Pavel: he was a commie in military intelligence, so was his father. They fronted the 1968 invasion - Pavel openly admits it and says it was a mistake. The headline in a local paper was: "Has Czechia finally got over its anti-commie sentiment?" Both Babis and Pavel were commies and not small ones - they are who they are because they were commies in the 80's. The difference between their policies is non-existent - nothing will change, Czechs will continue sitting on the fence and occasionally throw rhetorical bombs, mostly at Russia because it is easier. Then they will have a beer and forget about it.

    Replies: @Yevardian, @LatW

    Well, I think you’re more than half-right in your overall perspective on the diplomatic background, but I don’t see how any person observing the events of the past year could see Russia’s military performance as anything but disastrous, and an avoidable catastrophe (more so for Ukraine of course) for Russia in general.
    I went through the same dread phase re Russia’s future as a great power that Karlin appears to going through now near the beginning of the war, so at least I’ve been consistent in that. It was pretty clear when it became evident that Azerbaijan appeared to have a better planned and structured military than the superpower it was recently a part of.

    • Replies: @Beckow
    @Yevardian

    Nobody other than war nerds ever goes back and judges a war based on day-to-day minutia in the middle. That doesn't matter - what matters is who will win. I still have not seen a rational description of how Russia will be defeated.

    Having excellent tactics but no strategy is like noise before a defeat. I am not suggesting that Ukies have better tactics - they lost too many people - but if we would give Kiev-Zaluzny tactical brilliance (why not?) it still would make no difference. They have no long-term strategy how to defeat Russia.

    It was a catastrophic misjudgment by Nato planners and their Kiev over-eager acolytes...they planned and planned without ever accounting for what to do if Russia wakes up and starts shooting seriously. They are very infantile, meet them - it is obvious they are not serious people.

    The war is half-way, not the best time to assess it - let's wait. It probably will end this year, or in 2024. Otherwise we are looking at somebody probably going nuclear.

    Replies: @A123, @Yevardian

    , @Ivashka the fool
    @Yevardian


    It was pretty clear when it became evident that Azerbaijan appeared to have a better planned and structured military than the superpower it was recently a part of.
     
    Well, the Azeri are basically a Turkish province by now, but for the strong Israeli influence. Perhaps in due time, as the Turkish influence in RusFed grows, Russian military will also be restored to some level of organization and fighting competence. Of course Israeli influence in RusFed is also already prominent, given that according to Pavel Priannikov (who is himself a mishling) some 50% of Muscovite political circles have Jewish ancestry (in a country where Jews today are probably not even 2% of the population).

    At least there's something Azerbaijan, RusFed and Ukraine have in common: entrenched Jewish influence and a growing Turkish acumen. Sadly for your folks, Armenia couldn't avail itself of both of these. Now you are left with courting the French and relaying on Iranian backing. A sad situation if there ever was one. Luckily, everything is not as bad as it seems: you still have the Kardashians' feminine curvy soft power. Your homeland can still make amends with its Turkic neighbors by providing them with the graceful presence of your curvaceous brand of womenfolk.
  799. “The Swedish Saab Gripen C/D offers by far the most suitable candidate in terms of operational requirements. It was designed from the outset for ease of maintenance, and can be refueled, re-armed and given basic maintenance by teams of just six ground crew using two vehicles on small airbases or highways in cold weather”, according to a UK think tank (Royal United Services Institute for Defense and Security Studies).

    “Gripen C/D fighter, the second generation of the aircraft, would be a very efficient alternative to Western aircraft instead of the expensive and demanding F-15, F-16 and F/A-18 fighters.”

    https://www.airdatanews.com/uk-think-tank-says-saab-gripen-fighter-would-be-most-effective-for-ukraine/

  800. @Yevardian
    @Beckow

    Well, I think you're more than half-right in your overall perspective on the diplomatic background, but I don't see how any person observing the events of the past year could see Russia's military performance as anything but disastrous, and an avoidable catastrophe (more so for Ukraine of course) for Russia in general.
    I went through the same dread phase re Russia's future as a great power that Karlin appears to going through now near the beginning of the war, so at least I've been consistent in that. It was pretty clear when it became evident that Azerbaijan appeared to have a better planned and structured military than the superpower it was recently a part of.

    Replies: @Beckow, @Ivashka the fool

    Nobody other than war nerds ever goes back and judges a war based on day-to-day minutia in the middle. That doesn’t matter – what matters is who will win. I still have not seen a rational description of how Russia will be defeated.

    Having excellent tactics but no strategy is like noise before a defeat. I am not suggesting that Ukies have better tactics – they lost too many people – but if we would give Kiev-Zaluzny tactical brilliance (why not?) it still would make no difference. They have no long-term strategy how to defeat Russia.

    It was a catastrophic misjudgment by Nato planners and their Kiev over-eager acolytes…they planned and planned without ever accounting for what to do if Russia wakes up and starts shooting seriously. They are very infantile, meet them – it is obvious they are not serious people.

    The war is half-way, not the best time to assess it – let’s wait. It probably will end this year, or in 2024. Otherwise we are looking at somebody probably going nuclear.

    • Replies: @A123
    @Beckow


    still have not seen a rational description of how Russia will be defeated.
    ...
    It was a catastrophic misjudgment by Nato planners and their Kiev over-eager acolytes…they planned and planned without ever accounting for what to do if Russia wakes up and starts shooting seriously.
     
    I have had a similar analysis gap. This was never winnable for Kiev agression.

    • What if it is not a misjudgment?
    • What if this is the desired outcome for European Elites?
    • What if Zelensky is a patsy (or a collaborator) in a plan to intentionally break Ukraine?

    All of the apparently inane decisions suddenly fit a pattern if a "military win" was never the goal.

    PEACE 😇

    Replies: @Beckow

    , @Yevardian
    @Beckow


    Nobody other than war nerds ever goes back and judges a war based on day-to-day minutia in the middle. That doesn’t matter – what matters is who will win. I still have not seen a rational description of how Russia will be defeated.
     
    I agree, but as Karlin has recently repeated ad nauseum, the outcome of the war won't be determined 'on the latest flyspeck village or depopulated rustbelt Donbass town', but how seriously Russia takes this war, and how willing Putin is to seriously shake up Russia's existing military structure in order to win.
    So far there have been minimal if any signs of this happening. The 'Kremlins' still don't seem to be fully aware they're now engaged in a war of attrition not just with Ukraine, but the entire Western World.
    I don't see Russia achieving any kind of strategic victory at this point unless it does absolutely drastic. Taking a few hundred sq.kilometres of deeply impoverished East-Ukrainian territory, recognised by absolutely no one who matters, whilst the US/Europe continues arming Ukraine's remainder to the teeth for the indefinite future, is hardly any 'victory' in my eyes.

    Now Russia is fucked, and so is Armenia for that matter.


    https://twitter.com/powerfultakes/status/1605653689171120143

    Replies: @AnonfromTN, @A123, @Beckow

  801. @LatW
    @S


    I suspect I represent many of the male posters here in my viewpoint, though I disagree vehemently with your view in regards to the wisdom of the war in Ukraine, I greatly respect your intellect and am quite appreciative of your posts at this site.
     
    Haha, I'm not sure this represents other posters here, but thank you - you are very kind. I enjoy your comments, too (even if I haven't read the books you reference, I should). We do agree on other important topics (besides Ukraine). And my brainpower is but a tiny fraction of that of the other posters here.


    You are a real credit to the Latvian people as a whole and Latvian womanhood in particular.
     
    You are too kind. There are many other Latvian women who are more graceful and selfless than I (granted, they are not all nationalists, as I enjoy right wing contrarian content maybe a little too much, it's my one weakness). Apologies if I sound too forceful sometimes (I'm actually much less so in real life).

    I have to wonder if you had been raised in the United States.
     
    No, but I know the country quite well (I have lived in two very different states).

    Replies: @S

    There are many other Latvian women who are more graceful and selfless than I (granted, they are not all nationalists, as I enjoy right wing contrarian content maybe a little too much, it’s my one weakness).

    And modest besides, perhaps too much so…

    Apologies if I sound too forceful sometimes (I’m actually much less so in real life).

    Not at all. I would that there be many more of your mettle and of the feminine persuasion at these sites. But, alas…

    No, but I know the country quite well (I have lived in two very different states).

    I just knew there had to be a US connection of some type in there. I’m psychic that way you know. 😀

    Hopefully, we will be able to continue to enjoy your high quality posts at this site for a long time yet.

    And, speaking of high quality posts, haven’t seen Bashi posting for a few days now. I hope he’s doing okay and returns soon.

    • Agree: LatW
  802. @Yevardian
    @Yahya


    Goddard, Bergman
     
    Mentioning junk like Goddard in the same sentence or paragraph as the god Bergman is extremely unfair. I'm not much of a fan of Fellini (especially his late films) outside of his one masterpiece La Dolce Vita, but again, not fair to put him in the same punching bag as Goddard or some other of the most insufferable New Wave directors, like Resnais.
    Anyhow, it might interest you to know that Bergman strongly disliked Goddard and most of the French New Wave (and Buñuel) as well.

    My beef with this technique is not that I dislike slow pacing; but that certain pretentious eurotrash directors seem to deliberately employ the snail’s pace to make their movie seem more sophisticated than it is.
     
    I wonder what you'd think of Antonioni, he was notoriously divisive of audiences for this, but I think he employed it very well, until his films started entering the territory of self-parody, as Tarkovsky's last two features did.

    Sure, some directors exploit the usage of glacial pace to impart to their films a bogus profundity (Theo Angelopoulos, Lars Von Trier come to mind), but don't forget it's also a matter of personal taste. Since you get annoyed at relatively harmless posters like songbird, your constant refrain of 'Eurotrash' is a bit hypocritical. I don't think you'd like it if people referred to.. (actually, I don't know any Arab directors offhand) as a 'dirty Arab' or such.


    This is the problem with Soviet and Eastern European movies in the general; they’re not stupid, certainly far more intelligent than the average Hollywood movie; but they fail at the basic function of keeping viewers engaged.
     
    Funny that you'd say that, because the USSR and the Eastern Bloc in general mandated a policy of 'Socialist Realism', whose theory purposely eschewed symbolism or 'pretentiousness' generally in their film industry until the late 1980s (with a thaw in early the 70s).

    I'd still highly recommend the Soviet coming-of-age films 'Courier', 'I Am Twenty' and 'Scarecrow' and if you haven't seen them already, all of those show the USSR could make intelligent and entertaining youth films as good as any from the USA when they wanted.

    The more recent 'The Return' by Zvyagintsev is another great film about childhood by Zvyagintsev, before he just started entering the territory of misery-porn (and inadvertently delighting critics of Russia, though I don't think that's his intention) with 'Leviathan'.

    Replies: @Yahya, @AP

    Since you get annoyed at relatively harmless posters like songbird, your constant refrain of ‘Eurotrash’ is a bit hypocritical. I don’t think you’d like it if people referred to.. (actually, I don’t know any Arab directors offhand) as a ‘dirty Arab’ or such.

    Well “Eurotrash” is defined by wiki as “a term for certain Europeans, particularly those perceived to be socialites, stylish and affluent.” Not really meant to be a racial insult like “white trash”; just a humorous label for a certain type of European; of which many of these directors fit the bill. In fact, i’ve seen the term “eurotrash” applied in the context of movies before; which is how I got the idea of calling these pretentious directors by that label. Not meant to insult Europeans as a whole.

    As for songbird; well he is only harmless insofar as he is a weakling. But his behavior and attitudes are vile and irritating. My beef with him goes way back; and though I admit to starting many of our current exchanges; he was the one who fired the first shot. So I don’t feel sorry (sometimes, but not most of the time) for insulting him harshly. He deserves it.

    I wonder what you’d think of Antonioni

    Haven’t watched his movies.

    Funny that you’d say that, because the USSR and the Eastern Bloc in general mandated a policy of ‘Socialist Realism’, whose theory purposely eschewed symbolism or ‘pretentiousness’ generally in their film industry until the late 1980s (with a thaw in early the 70s).

    Well my objection to Eastern European movies aren’t that they are pretentious; but that they are dull and boring. I’m obviously talking about tendencies; i’ve enjoyed a fair number of entertaining Soviet/EE movies.

    Maybe I should have gotten his email in case, although I don’t think he appreciated my appreciation of utu’s ‘anti-German cunt rants’ as the best comedy posted on these Open Threads since Karlin left.

    Lol, I told German_twat…. er… Reader before that utu’s insults were comedic gold; probably the most enjoyable comments to read for combining sheer creativity and pithiness. But I think GR is like me in that he takes insults personally; so I can understand why he disliked utu. He was admirably willing to concede utu’s positive traits though; but still hedged by calling him “stupid” and “insufferable” after utu had left.

    Funnily enough, I admired both these commentors; and thought they were basically decent and intelligent people. So it was interesting watching them call each other “cunt”, “twat”, “mental case”, “lunatic”, “absurdly stupid”, “deeply pathetic”, and my favorite “imbecile who should have been locked away in a institutional cell”. But then even Benjamin Franklin got into a feud with John Adams.

    ‘Give them great meals of beef and iron and steel, they will eat like wolves and fight like devils.’ – Shakespeare

    • Replies: @LatW
    @Yahya


    but still hedged by calling him “stupid” and “insufferable” after utu had left.
     
    That's right, GR did take out some heavy artillery himself. :) I think eventually his favorite description of utu was something along the lines of "insane boomer" or "senile wacko" or something of that sort, with a suggestion that utu should be institutionalized. I hope utu's ok though.
    , @Ivashka the fool
    @Yahya


    Well “Eurotrash” is defined by wiki as “a term for certain Europeans, particularly those perceived to be socialites, stylish and affluent.”

     

    Nah, back in the day of Love Parades and Ibiza's MDMA fueled parties, Eurotrash was the slang for the young feckless Euros drifting on petty jobs between Berlin, London and Amsterdam. That's what Irvine Welsh wrote about in his Acid House novels and he knew the scene quite well.

    https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/38732506-eurotrash

    BTW if you didn't watch Acid House the movie, based on Welsh's book then I recommend it for its savage and grotesque humor.

    https://m.media-amazon.com/images/M/MV5BMTIzNTI2NDY5OF5BMl5BanBnXkFtZTYwNDExMjg4._V1_.jpg

    (Nevermind the Rotten Tomatoes and IMDB ratings, most Americans film aficionados lack the background to appreciate the subtle philosophy of this movie).

    What your Wiki article describes is more around the lines of clochard chic, poorgeois - le sale est le nouveau cool, that I am witnessing with some dismay in my own grown kids ans their friends.

    https://www.marieclaire.fr/le-sale-est-il-le-nouveau-cool,1298568.asp

    Well, at least they're not Skinheads...

    😉

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @Mr. Hack

  803. @Beckow
    @Yevardian

    Nobody other than war nerds ever goes back and judges a war based on day-to-day minutia in the middle. That doesn't matter - what matters is who will win. I still have not seen a rational description of how Russia will be defeated.

    Having excellent tactics but no strategy is like noise before a defeat. I am not suggesting that Ukies have better tactics - they lost too many people - but if we would give Kiev-Zaluzny tactical brilliance (why not?) it still would make no difference. They have no long-term strategy how to defeat Russia.

    It was a catastrophic misjudgment by Nato planners and their Kiev over-eager acolytes...they planned and planned without ever accounting for what to do if Russia wakes up and starts shooting seriously. They are very infantile, meet them - it is obvious they are not serious people.

    The war is half-way, not the best time to assess it - let's wait. It probably will end this year, or in 2024. Otherwise we are looking at somebody probably going nuclear.

    Replies: @A123, @Yevardian

    still have not seen a rational description of how Russia will be defeated.

    It was a catastrophic misjudgment by Nato planners and their Kiev over-eager acolytes…they planned and planned without ever accounting for what to do if Russia wakes up and starts shooting seriously.

    I have had a similar analysis gap. This was never winnable for Kiev agression.

    • What if it is not a misjudgment?
    • What if this is the desired outcome for European Elites?
    • What if Zelensky is a patsy (or a collaborator) in a plan to intentionally break Ukraine?

    All of the apparently inane decisions suddenly fit a pattern if a “military win” was never the goal.

    PEACE 😇

    • LOL: Mr. Hack
    • Replies: @Beckow
    @A123


    ...What if it is not a misjudgment?
     
    My humble opinion is that it is basically stupidity. Some hubris, short-term thinking - next media cycle or elections, some plain old evil ethnic seeking revenge.

    I agree that among the few smarter ones the idea of losing in Ukraine, breaking it up, putting up a new iron curtain is not the worst outcome given the available choices. Once the neo-con Sturm nach Osten got underway this was inevitable - other than the details and timing. It is a consequence of the original misjudgment, but I don't think anyone planned it.

    Since the military win is not possible, they will just destroy the place, kill a lot of Ukies, use up ammunition, get richer - then move on as they always do. It is a strategic equivalent of crapping in the drawer on the way out after losing a lease...for some reason these sophisticated Washingtonians always do that...

    Replies: @A123

  804. @Beckow
    @LatW


    ...Nobody is happy with the war, it’s probably a once in a 300 years type of nightmare.
     
    So why is taking place? It is very clear that Ukie national mania (and also others like Poles, Latvians, etc...) and the insane plan to put Nato on Russia's border in Ukraine is the reason. Russian reaction was kind of inevitable, what else they could have done?

    de facto situation is that Ukraine has become a full on ally of the West. It is still an unstable situation
     
    Kiev was a de facto ally for the last 8 years - nothing has changed in that. What has changed is that Nato will be not be in Ukraine 'politically' and will not build bases there or put missiles in Russia's border 2-3 minutes from Moscow. It won't happen now unless Russia is defeated (unlikely) and it was definitely going to happen if Russia did nothing. You will deny it, people will lie about it - but it was the reality. Nato lost Ukraine and there is not much they can do about it.

    Regarding Pavel: he was a commie in military intelligence, so was his father. They fronted the 1968 invasion - Pavel openly admits it and says it was a mistake. The headline in a local paper was: "Has Czechia finally got over its anti-commie sentiment?" Both Babis and Pavel were commies and not small ones - they are who they are because they were commies in the 80's. The difference between their policies is non-existent - nothing will change, Czechs will continue sitting on the fence and occasionally throw rhetorical bombs, mostly at Russia because it is easier. Then they will have a beer and forget about it.

    Replies: @Yevardian, @LatW

    Russian reaction was kind of inevitable, what else they could have done?

    Beckow, your whole argument since day one has been that everyone, literally everyone in the region has to suck it up, except RusFed. What you don’t realize is that a lot had been already tolerated to keep the peace, the West had already closed their eyes to many things. Russia simply went too far this time. It simply turned out that you can abuse and push the Chechen and Georgian around, but you can’t do that to a Ukrainian. It’s that simple (and everything that it entails). Russia simply should’ve adjusted her spectacles to realize that she is not the USSR and never will be.

    Of course, from Russia’s POV Ukraine became “anti-Russia” (this is partly an issue of perception, for Russia anything that is not fully compliant to their worldview is either a Nazi or some “anti-Russia”). And such was not acceptable so they chose to use force. But with the use of force comes risk, even for someone who is supposedly strong. You never know how the chips will fall. Every time you cross that threshold, the rules change because “war is the father of all things”, as Heraclitus said, and you cannot control everything at that point. Especially Fortuna.

    It could also be that Russia opened a real Pandora’s box this time, if you see what is starting to happen around Iran. Iran may have made a fatal mistake as well, by providing the Russians with weapons to murder young Ukrainian girls in their beds. Did they really lack enemies that they had to make more? We’ll see where that ends…

    [MORE]

    what else they could have done?

    I already told you what they could have done – strengthen themselves from within. Place their missiles strategically (which they already did in many locations). Not waste resources by sending money out of the country. Reflect internally and understand that 1991 was final. That what they had before Feb 24 was already a lot and that to shepard that requires a lot of work. Not live in illusions about the past grandeur and especially not apply those illusions to today’s capabilities (this was the fatal mistake). To understand that it is only possible to win the Ukrainian nationalism is by being “the bigger guy”. And even then this nationalism would remain, but Russia would not care since Russia would have a more attractive version of existence.

    What has changed is that Nato will be not be in Ukraine ‘politically’ and will not build bases there or put missiles in Russia’s border 2-3 minutes from Moscow.

    I’m not sure it’s 2-3 minutes but maybe 10-15. And those missiles are not even built yet. However, such missiles could serve as a deterrent and may actually be good and could have kept the war at bay, if Ukraine had them.

    Anyway, even without the NATO bases there, the relationship between RU and UA was totally screwed. As long as the relationship is in such a state, nothing really makes a difference. The way they talk about each other publicly now is much much worse than how we talk about the Russian in the privacy of our homes. You believe that Ukraine could’ve been pacified, but it’s not that easy – this has been going on for hundreds of years. And now we have modern technology.

    Nato lost Ukraine and there is not much they can do about it.

    Does it matter? The West will help Ukraine long term. Even if the US departs at some point, others will help. Like in that Beatles song “I’ll get by with a little help from my friends”. 🙂

    Both Babis and Pavel were commies and not small ones – they are who they are because they were commies in the 80’s.

    I understand that part very well, trust me. We had such types too and it’s exactly how you say – they got to be where they are because of who / what they were. Not just politics but even business.

    Decommunzation was never complete. You couldn’t complete it a 100% because then there would be too many to discard.

    But time will heal everything – time is the great healer.

    The difference between their policies is non-existent – nothing will change, Czechs will continue sitting on the fence and occasionally throw rhetorical bombs, mostly at Russia because it is easier. Then they will have a beer and forget about it.

    It’s alright. I don’t have any major expectations. I just liked some of his more realistic statements and I like that someone with a military background became president. Of course, my favorite military type is a patriot from the national guard type of an organization, not a NATO bureaucrat, but it’s alright. 🙂

    • Replies: @Beckow
    @LatW


    ...those missiles are not even built yet. However, such missiles could serve as a deterrent and may actually be good and could have kept the war at bay, if Ukraine had them.

     

    The word "yet" is the key to you argument and the major reason you and I disagree. Yes, a lot of things were 'not yet' and you base your rather idealistic expectations about Russia's behavior on that. But we should agree that a major component of intelligence is the ability to anticipate...anticipation is a key to high IQ. Based on that, Russia simply correctly anticipated that if Kiev post-Maidan and Nato openly declared A, B, C, D...that eventually there will be also E, F, G...yes, not yet, but inevitably so. You can't accept, as if you were caught in a pretense and hoped that Russia won't see or won't call you on it - well, they did and we have a war. But a quick look in the mirror would tell you why there is a war.

    Your more pompous argument that Russia has no extraterritorial rights, no right to security, no say in how its Russian ethnics are treated, no say in whether Georgia or Ukraine join an aggressive anti-Russia military pact...well, I am trying to be polite, but that is simply nonsense: non-actionable, out-of-context bulls..t that people caught doing bad stuff and lying about it always do. Please, drop it, it is embarrassing. Of course, Russia has and will have say in those matters - as will US or UK, France or China in their neighborhood.

    Let me remind you that your favorite alliance, the one you say should plop itself on Russia's porch and Russia should shut up, bombed about half dozen countries, invaded, killed probably close to million civilians, lied about it, giggled about 'collateral damage', destroyed a major European city (Beograd). etc...your complete inability to even address that is puzzling and it makes what you argue feel like a junior-high shouting contest. Try to be more serious, we have AP for slogans and Mr. Hacks for feminine emotions, I expect more from you :)...

    ...what they could have done – strengthen themselves from within. Place their missiles strategically (which they already did in many locations). Not waste resources by sending money out of the country. Reflect internally and understand that 1991 was final.
     
    Read what you said, it literally amounts to nothing. Money leaves Russia totally unrelated to this war, it always has. The resources have been finally restricted - we will see how that works out. And "place their missiles...", what the hell is that supposed to mean? They already have them in place, you talk complete military nonsense...the point is that if someone (Nato) is about to place their missiles a few minutes from your capitol, you don't sit there and say "well, we can also strike them"...did US sit back in Cuba crisis? could Russia place missiles in Ireland?

    And "strengthen within" ? Wow, you hide behind cliches. Why doesn't Latvia or Ukraine, or even US and UK work on strengthening within instead of parading missiles on Russia's borders? You seem to have a complete inability to see the others as having equal rights...in this case Russia. That usually translates as a sign of hatred, either acknowledged or hidden. And that won't get you far. Try to strengthen yourself, abandoning hatreds and double standards would be a good first step. I see Russia as all others, neither better nor worse, they have as much right to security as you do, or as US does. Accept that and we can move forward.

    Well, at least we agree on Pavel and his type :)...Having met him in person, my expectations are very low (he drinks quite a bit), but he is soft-spoken, calm and looks 'presidential'...that's why he beat the business-commie, Babis is too hectic, too action-oriented and eludes an air of unreliability. But it makes literally zero difference to the war.

    Replies: @LatW

  805. @songbird
    @Yahya


    I constantly parrot regime words like “intersectionality”, “lived experiences”, “toxic masculinity” and blame racial inequalities in outcomes on “white racism”.
     
    You still use the biggest and most powerful regime vocab: "Nazi" and "racism." How do you think the whole thing started?

    Make no mistake: you're acting as a regime enforcer here, trying to shift dialogue away from criticism of mass migration, the regime's pet groups and foot soldiers, or from their rhetorical techniques. You recently attacked me for having a problem with the phrase "white British", as if there was something morally wrong with me criticizing some new-age regime term that seeks to deracinate people and steal their identity, and villainize them.

    You think that makes you a rebel against the regime? To be blunt: you'd be indistinguishable from a member of the West's Fifty Cent Party, if there was such a thing, and not merely bots, true believers, and full-salaried employees.

    Replies: @Yahya

    I (and you know this perfectly well) was referring to oil money, NOT Saudi national identity.

    No, I didn’t know you were referring to oil money. I thought you were at least not dumb enough to assume my family made its money from oil; considering that oil in Saudi Arabia is mostly a state-owned endeavor; and that only royals directly benefit from oil revenues (and we are far from being royals or anything close to them). But apparently you are not knowledgeable enough about these basic facts; so I will tell you clearly that my family made zero money off oil, we don’t even own shares in ARAMCO now that it has been listed. I’ve mentioned the business we are involved in to you back in AE’s blog, but you must have forgotten. It’s as far from oil and gas as you can get.

    [MORE]

    Also, just fyi, there are lots of rich Egyptians as well. Some of my Egyptian friends’ parents are several times wealthier than my own; so you shouldn’t assume any Arab with money would automatically derives it from oil; or indeed even be a Gulf Arab. The wealthy Egyptians and Levantines tend to be more understated in their behavior than Gulf Arabs; whom if you have visited London and Paris, would know tend to be conspicuous. You once insulted my mother by insinuating that my father “married down a few rungs in the socio-economic ladder”; but you are an ignoramus who doesn’t understand that not everyone native Egyptian is poor or of low socio-economic status. In fact; my mother tends to be the snobby one out of my parents; and sometimes mocks my father from a position of haughtiness (though this has more to do with family lineage rather than wealth).

    To paraphrase, “You are just a Mick, a LARPer – you can’t object to the destruction of Western Civilization because it is not yours.”

    Stop paraphrasing (viz. put words in my mouth); you always twist my words and construct strawmen.

    You think I am insulting blacks? Very few that are on here to insult. Don’t think this would be the right place for it.

    Say that I am motivated by low impulses, instead of love for something.

    Yes this comment of yours was motivated by nothing but the most benign; saintly intentions.

    songbird says:
    April 26, 2019 at 8:09 pm GMT • 3.8 years ago • 100 Words ↑
    @German_reader
    Let’s suppose, you merely took Europeans and set them down in America. Would they not say they loved diversity, once some nigger accosted them in the airport with the question?

    Once, I was accosted with some formulation like “Sir, you don’t look racist, can I interview you as part of my college project about diversity?” Did I tell him that he was ape accosting me mere feet from where one of my ancestors died building the city that gorillas like him had invaded and defiled. That only 10% of blacks should be educated past the 6th grade? That they should all be sent back to Africa? No, I politely told him that I did not have the time, which was true enough, though I would I have told him that even if I were an old pensioner.

    • Replies: @German_reader

    https://www.unz.com/akarlin/open-thread-74/#comment-3178985

    Because we all know how normal it is to call someone an “ape” and “gorilla” for the sinful act of politely asking for a college assignment interview; something no-one proper human being does – only primates.

    None of this is insulting to blacks at all. Only a woke vegan enthrall to the regime can possibly take offense at such a benevolent sentiment.

    • Replies: @songbird
    @Yahya


    >I think it is something that requires a tight balance and a lot of formalism. I’m not sure that there is a state that quite pulls it off,

    Obviously you’ve never heard of Malaysia.
     
    No, that is not what I meant at all. Ethnic Chinese are the goose that layed the golden egg and their TFR in Malaysia is even lower than that in Singapore and Taiwan. And the TFR of Malays is cratering as well. Doesn't appear to me like a healthy society.

    Also, just fyi, there are lots of rich Egyptians as well.
     
    Obviously, there is going to be a few, with a population of about 108 million. Who would doubt it? There are lots of big mansions in poor countries, even Haiti. But what I do know about Egypt is that my relatives went there and gave food to beggar-children who seemed to rarely experience such good fortune, as to have a good meal. They were also slaughtering animals in alleyways.

    I don't think that happens in Saudi? And Egypt has the Suez Canal, fronts the Med, has extremely fertile land around the Nile, possibly higher human capital, and is a global tourist Mecca (though I guess the last could be said of Saudi due to the Hajj). I think one would say that other than its lack of oil, Egypt is more "gifted" than Saudi, and yet Saudi is objectively more prosperous, with a higher per capita, so much so that it attracts many migrants. That is "oil money." It's kind of like Dubai (rough analogy only), but if Dubai hadn't run out of oil. And if you want to tell me that an intelligent person can't benefit from it - that the gains are only to Saudi royals, who get the first checks - then I don't believe it.

    BTW, thought you said you were on some sort of scholarship? Tell me, what would it have come to if you had to pay it yourself? Or was that only your friends, and you were paying your own way?

    Because we all know how normal it is to call someone an “ape” and “gorilla” for the sinful act of politely asking for a college assignment interview; something no-one proper human being does – only primates.
     
    First, he wasn't being polite. He was telling me that he majoring in grievance studies against my people to become a commissar and get in on the graft - and I was already paying for it. Did you not understand that? You have to read inbetween the lines.

    Put it all together now, in case you haven't: he was doing that, despite his folks living the same distance from Boston as Europe is to sub-Sahara, only in the 1950s or even later. (My grandfather had an acquaintance knicknamed "Nigger Jim" or something who was white - and probably palish. That was in his yearbook - I saw it.)

    AND he was doing that despite trillions of dollars, and endless sacrifices for people like him. AND the exact same thing is happening in Europe, and he is part of that too (if perhaps unwittingly). AND that is not the first and only time that sort of thing has happened to me.

    You think that is being polite?! Sorry, you couldn't be more wrong. There are not many things that you can do that are ruder than that. Wouldn't have minded at all, if I were walking in Alabama, and he had merely insulted me, but none of those other things happened.

    Only a woke vegan enthrall to the regime can possibly take offense at such a benevolent sentiment.
     
    Please, don't overreact here. Quite common language internationally, and every place where it is accepted is non-woke and not being mass-invaded. Quite a coincidence, wouldn't you say? The Chinese even have a term "white monkey", (BTW, have you seen The Black Ship scrolls about Perry's arrival in Japan?) and I'd be surprised if you hadn't heard some insulting stuff about Euros yourself, behind the scenes. The genius of the regime here is they don't have to say that, they've turned "white" into a pejorative and can say it in the open, full of venom and bile. From the top of bureaucracies, with everyone in earshot.

    Stop paraphrasing (viz. put words in my mouth); you always twist my words and construct strawmen.
     
    What strawmen? Did you or did you not call me a "Mick?" And call Silvio a "Balkanoid" (or some such?) Tell me, what was your purpose in that?

    Replies: @Yahya

  806. @Yahya
    @Yevardian


    Since you get annoyed at relatively harmless posters like songbird, your constant refrain of ‘Eurotrash’ is a bit hypocritical. I don’t think you’d like it if people referred to.. (actually, I don’t know any Arab directors offhand) as a ‘dirty Arab’ or such.
     
    Well "Eurotrash" is defined by wiki as "a term for certain Europeans, particularly those perceived to be socialites, stylish and affluent." Not really meant to be a racial insult like "white trash"; just a humorous label for a certain type of European; of which many of these directors fit the bill. In fact, i've seen the term "eurotrash" applied in the context of movies before; which is how I got the idea of calling these pretentious directors by that label. Not meant to insult Europeans as a whole.

    As for songbird; well he is only harmless insofar as he is a weakling. But his behavior and attitudes are vile and irritating. My beef with him goes way back; and though I admit to starting many of our current exchanges; he was the one who fired the first shot. So I don't feel sorry (sometimes, but not most of the time) for insulting him harshly. He deserves it.


    I wonder what you’d think of Antonioni
     
    Haven't watched his movies.

    Funny that you’d say that, because the USSR and the Eastern Bloc in general mandated a policy of ‘Socialist Realism’, whose theory purposely eschewed symbolism or ‘pretentiousness’ generally in their film industry until the late 1980s (with a thaw in early the 70s).
     
    Well my objection to Eastern European movies aren't that they are pretentious; but that they are dull and boring. I'm obviously talking about tendencies; i've enjoyed a fair number of entertaining Soviet/EE movies.

    Maybe I should have gotten his email in case, although I don’t think he appreciated my appreciation of utu’s ‘anti-German cunt rants’ as the best comedy posted on these Open Threads since Karlin left.
     
    Lol, I told German_twat.... er... Reader before that utu's insults were comedic gold; probably the most enjoyable comments to read for combining sheer creativity and pithiness. But I think GR is like me in that he takes insults personally; so I can understand why he disliked utu. He was admirably willing to concede utu's positive traits though; but still hedged by calling him "stupid" and "insufferable" after utu had left.

    Funnily enough, I admired both these commentors; and thought they were basically decent and intelligent people. So it was interesting watching them call each other "cunt", "twat", “mental case”, “lunatic”, “absurdly stupid”, “deeply pathetic”, and my favorite “imbecile who should have been locked away in a institutional cell”. But then even Benjamin Franklin got into a feud with John Adams.

    'Give them great meals of beef and iron and steel, they will eat like wolves and fight like devils.' - Shakespeare

    Replies: @LatW, @Ivashka the fool

    but still hedged by calling him “stupid” and “insufferable” after utu had left.

    That’s right, GR did take out some heavy artillery himself. 🙂 I think eventually his favorite description of utu was something along the lines of “insane boomer” or “senile wacko” or something of that sort, with a suggestion that utu should be institutionalized. I hope utu’s ok though.

    • LOL: Ivashka the fool
  807. @Beckow
    @Yevardian

    Nobody other than war nerds ever goes back and judges a war based on day-to-day minutia in the middle. That doesn't matter - what matters is who will win. I still have not seen a rational description of how Russia will be defeated.

    Having excellent tactics but no strategy is like noise before a defeat. I am not suggesting that Ukies have better tactics - they lost too many people - but if we would give Kiev-Zaluzny tactical brilliance (why not?) it still would make no difference. They have no long-term strategy how to defeat Russia.

    It was a catastrophic misjudgment by Nato planners and their Kiev over-eager acolytes...they planned and planned without ever accounting for what to do if Russia wakes up and starts shooting seriously. They are very infantile, meet them - it is obvious they are not serious people.

    The war is half-way, not the best time to assess it - let's wait. It probably will end this year, or in 2024. Otherwise we are looking at somebody probably going nuclear.

    Replies: @A123, @Yevardian

    Nobody other than war nerds ever goes back and judges a war based on day-to-day minutia in the middle. That doesn’t matter – what matters is who will win. I still have not seen a rational description of how Russia will be defeated.

    I agree, but as Karlin has recently repeated ad nauseum, the outcome of the war won’t be determined ‘on the latest flyspeck village or depopulated rustbelt Donbass town’, but how seriously Russia takes this war, and how willing Putin is to seriously shake up Russia’s existing military structure in order to win.
    So far there have been minimal if any signs of this happening. The ‘Kremlins’ still don’t seem to be fully aware they’re now engaged in a war of attrition not just with Ukraine, but the entire Western World.
    I don’t see Russia achieving any kind of strategic victory at this point unless it does absolutely drastic. Taking a few hundred sq.kilometres of deeply impoverished East-Ukrainian territory, recognised by absolutely no one who matters, whilst the US/Europe continues arming Ukraine’s remainder to the teeth for the indefinite future, is hardly any ‘victory’ in my eyes.

    Now Russia is fucked, and so is Armenia for that matter.

    [MORE]

    • Replies: @AnonfromTN
    @Yevardian


    Taking a few hundred sq.kilometres of deeply impoverished East-Ukrainian territory, recognised by absolutely no one who matters, whilst the US/Europe continues arming Ukraine’s remainder to the teeth for the indefinite future, is hardly any ‘victory’ in my eyes.
     
    FYI, Donbass and the rest of Eastern Ukraine produced most of Ukrainian GDP. Western Ukraine is backward and impoverished. Having lost the host, the parasite dies.

    As to recognition, the only one that matters is recognition by the locals. FYI, ~95% of Donbass residents hate Ukie’s guts. Even self-appointed Ukie “patriots” acknowledge that from time to time. As one of the Ukie POWs said on camera, Russian soldiers treat us well, but Donbass soldiers want to kill us all.


    Now Russia is fucked, and so is Armenia for that matter.
     
    I wouldn’t be sure about Russia, it looked largely undamaged in October when I was there. What’s more, most Western brands that loudly proclaimed that they are leaving Russia actually remain there. All economic analysts bemoan the fact that 85-90% of Western companies keep doing business in Russia: money talks. I hope that the RF government gives them a hard kick in the butt to get them out. Otherwise the leeches won’t leave. I agree about Armenia, with clarification that Armenia is self-fucked.

    Replies: @AP

    , @A123
    @Yevardian


    So far there have been minimal if any signs of this happening. The ‘Kremlins’ still don’t seem to be fully aware they’re now engaged in a war of attrition not just with Ukraine, but the entire Western World.
     
    What world?

    As I pointed out earlier (1), House Appropriations will be decreased. They will also be properly audited and monitored. No 10% For The Big Guy. It will not be an immediate cut-&-run, however America is leaving the fight.
    ___

    So... By world do you mean Europe?

    Following the money... You really mean France and Germany. It is hard to see these two nations picking up the slack when U.S. funding diminishes by $5 Billion per Month.

    There is no way for Kiev aggression to triumph.
    ___

    If you are correct in that Russia either cannot (or does not want to) ingest all of Ukraine -- This implies a negotiated deal of some kind. Russia is willing to negotiate now. The Ukie Maximalists in Kiev are intransigent.

    If a deal is inevitable, seeking it now should be a no brainer.

    PEACE 😇
    __________

    (1) https://www.unz.com/akarlin/open-thread-207/#comment-5786220
    , @Beckow
    @Yevardian


    ....I don’t see Russia achieving any kind of strategic victory at this point unless it does absolutely drastic.
     
    How do you define a strategic victory? I won't quibble about the value of Donbas or a few villages, you could be right although that could be said about almost any geography (Armenia's Karabakh being a prime example :)...

    I keep repeating that the war is about keeping Nato and its weapons and bases out of Ukraine. There are other issues - local Russians, chernozem, Azov sea, Ukie-land as whole, perceptions etc... -but the core issue is will Nato have bases on Russia's border in Ukraine. If Russia prevents it, they would have won. If not, they will lose.

    To many it seems that Nato in Ukieland is a marginal issue, even made up - and Western media space works overtime never to mention it or to pretend (=lie like AP here) that wasn't the plan. Of course it was, Nato wasn't in Ukraine for Zelko's jokes or his wife's pretty eyes, they knew what they were doing.

    If you and Karlin can convince us that Nato will be in Ukraine, with bases and missiles, maybe even a formal membership, then you will have something. That is the core of the matter. The secondary question is whether Russia has the will to fight to win the war - you are right, they have been reluctant mostly because they didn't want to slaughter a lot of hapless Ukies. Everyone knows that they could - the way Nato bombed Serbia, Iraq...they could go medieval and prevail. The question is can they bring themselves to do it...

    (Djokovic just did an interview about how Nato brutally bombed Beograd when he was child, the squirming CNN assholes couldn't wait to censor him - most viewers probably thought that "it was Russia that bombed Serbia!" - such is the incredible hypocrisy and stupidity in the West. So let the dice roll...)

    Replies: @Emil Nikola Richard

  808. @songbird
    @AnonfromTN


    but they resent Chinese and Japanese tourists and say bad things about them. I don’t think this is healthy
     
    There's probably a certain amount of surviving antagonism towards the Japanese because of WW2. There were mass expulsions of hundreds of thousands of them in many places, after the war. I guess they never (maybe Vietnam excepted?) had the same excuse to use against the Chinese.

    I'm not entirely unsympathetic to SE Asians. Obviously, one wants to feel in control of one's own destiny. It is as equally true that the Chinese contribute a lot to the local economies and there is a large benefit to that, but at the same time, it is easy to take that and decouple it turn it into a rabid drive to maximize wealth, at the cost of national identity.

    I think it is something that requires a tight balance and a lot of formalism. I'm not sure that there is a state that quite pulls it off, but I don't think it is necessarily totally impossible for such a place to exist. I think part of the key is developing a formal relationship between two peoples, rather than just promoting diversity or lack of identity.

    Replies: @Yahya

    I think it is something that requires a tight balance and a lot of formalism. I’m not sure that there is a state that quite pulls it off,

    Obviously you’ve never heard of Malaysia.

  809. @Yevardian
    @Beckow


    Nobody other than war nerds ever goes back and judges a war based on day-to-day minutia in the middle. That doesn’t matter – what matters is who will win. I still have not seen a rational description of how Russia will be defeated.
     
    I agree, but as Karlin has recently repeated ad nauseum, the outcome of the war won't be determined 'on the latest flyspeck village or depopulated rustbelt Donbass town', but how seriously Russia takes this war, and how willing Putin is to seriously shake up Russia's existing military structure in order to win.
    So far there have been minimal if any signs of this happening. The 'Kremlins' still don't seem to be fully aware they're now engaged in a war of attrition not just with Ukraine, but the entire Western World.
    I don't see Russia achieving any kind of strategic victory at this point unless it does absolutely drastic. Taking a few hundred sq.kilometres of deeply impoverished East-Ukrainian territory, recognised by absolutely no one who matters, whilst the US/Europe continues arming Ukraine's remainder to the teeth for the indefinite future, is hardly any 'victory' in my eyes.

    Now Russia is fucked, and so is Armenia for that matter.


    https://twitter.com/powerfultakes/status/1605653689171120143

    Replies: @AnonfromTN, @A123, @Beckow

    Taking a few hundred sq.kilometres of deeply impoverished East-Ukrainian territory, recognised by absolutely no one who matters, whilst the US/Europe continues arming Ukraine’s remainder to the teeth for the indefinite future, is hardly any ‘victory’ in my eyes.

    FYI, Donbass and the rest of Eastern Ukraine produced most of Ukrainian GDP. Western Ukraine is backward and impoverished. Having lost the host, the parasite dies.

    As to recognition, the only one that matters is recognition by the locals. FYI, ~95% of Donbass residents hate Ukie’s guts. Even self-appointed Ukie “patriots” acknowledge that from time to time. As one of the Ukie POWs said on camera, Russian soldiers treat us well, but Donbass soldiers want to kill us all.

    Now Russia is fucked, and so is Armenia for that matter.

    I wouldn’t be sure about Russia, it looked largely undamaged in October when I was there. What’s more, most Western brands that loudly proclaimed that they are leaving Russia actually remain there. All economic analysts bemoan the fact that 85-90% of Western companies keep doing business in Russia: money talks. I hope that the RF government gives them a hard kick in the butt to get them out. Otherwise the leeches won’t leave. I agree about Armenia, with clarification that Armenia is self-fucked.

    • Replies: @AP
    @AnonfromTN


    FYI, Donbass and the rest of Eastern Ukraine produced most of Ukrainian GDP. Western Ukraine is backward and impoverished.
     
    Under Austria, the Galician per capita GDP exceeded that of Russia, all the Balkans (including parts of Hungary), and Portugal. Despite Galicia being tied with Dalmatia as the poorest part of Austria.

    When the Soviets annexed Galicia it was far more developed than was the USSR (one of my grandparents transferred studies from Kharkiv to Lviv at that time and saw the difference firsthand). The Soviets who came in were dazzled by the higher level of culture and materiel means. Conversely, any remaining pro-Soviet affinity by locals vanished when they experienced Sovok first-hand.

    But under Sovok misrule western Ukraine fell behind.

    Having lost the host, the parasite dies.

     

    Well, if the relationship was parasitical one would indeed expect the rest of Ukraine to sink without Donbas. Instead, the opposite occurred and by the beginning of 2020 Donbas-less Ukraine had surpassed the per capita GDP and wages it had while the country had been burdened by the Donbas anchor.

    So now we see that Donbas had simply held the country back.

    Replies: @AnonfromTN

  810. @Yevardian
    @Beckow


    Nobody other than war nerds ever goes back and judges a war based on day-to-day minutia in the middle. That doesn’t matter – what matters is who will win. I still have not seen a rational description of how Russia will be defeated.
     
    I agree, but as Karlin has recently repeated ad nauseum, the outcome of the war won't be determined 'on the latest flyspeck village or depopulated rustbelt Donbass town', but how seriously Russia takes this war, and how willing Putin is to seriously shake up Russia's existing military structure in order to win.
    So far there have been minimal if any signs of this happening. The 'Kremlins' still don't seem to be fully aware they're now engaged in a war of attrition not just with Ukraine, but the entire Western World.
    I don't see Russia achieving any kind of strategic victory at this point unless it does absolutely drastic. Taking a few hundred sq.kilometres of deeply impoverished East-Ukrainian territory, recognised by absolutely no one who matters, whilst the US/Europe continues arming Ukraine's remainder to the teeth for the indefinite future, is hardly any 'victory' in my eyes.

    Now Russia is fucked, and so is Armenia for that matter.


    https://twitter.com/powerfultakes/status/1605653689171120143

    Replies: @AnonfromTN, @A123, @Beckow

    So far there have been minimal if any signs of this happening. The ‘Kremlins’ still don’t seem to be fully aware they’re now engaged in a war of attrition not just with Ukraine, but the entire Western World.

    What world?

    As I pointed out earlier (1), House Appropriations will be decreased. They will also be properly audited and monitored. No 10% For The Big Guy. It will not be an immediate cut-&-run, however America is leaving the fight.
    ___

    So… By world do you mean Europe?

    Following the money… You really mean France and Germany. It is hard to see these two nations picking up the slack when U.S. funding diminishes by $5 Billion per Month.

    There is no way for Kiev aggression to triumph.
    ___

    If you are correct in that Russia either cannot (or does not want to) ingest all of Ukraine — This implies a negotiated deal of some kind. Russia is willing to negotiate now. The Ukie Maximalists in Kiev are intransigent.

    If a deal is inevitable, seeking it now should be a no brainer.

    PEACE 😇
    __________

    (1) https://www.unz.com/akarlin/open-thread-207/#comment-5786220

  811. Sher Singh says:
    @Yevardian
    @Yahya


    German_Reader
     
    I'm afraid he may he departed this site permanently after a few threads filled mostly with anti-vax poasters, Sher Singh spamming his Indo-Aryan schtick and the endlessly rehashed points over Ukraine.
    I couldn't be bothered posting my booklist after he left since it would have basically have been a reply solely directed for him, honestly.

    Maybe I should have gotten his email in case, although I don't think he appreciated my appreciation of utu's 'anti-German cunt rants' as the best comedy posted on these Open Threads since Karlin left.

    Replies: @Sher Singh

    Sher Singh spamming his Indo-Aryan schtick

    If you’re going to hate non-Christian religion then do it openly.
    Don’t accuse me of being ethno-centric when I’m the least of the lot.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11689339/Indian-brawl-erupts-Melbournes-Fed-Square-Sikh-attacking-Hindu-nationalists.html

    Being a non-superstitious scientist, I don’t think duels solve anything. Depending on who is more ruthless and a better shot, the person who is right or the one who is wrong can be killed. The truth can be established by a duel no more than it can be established by voting.

    In contests of strength, “truth” is the refuge of the weak.

    • Replies: @Mikel
    @Sher Singh


    Don’t accuse me of being ethno-centric when I’m the least of the lot.
     
    Well, that much is true. I still haven't been able to figure out which ethnic group you belong to. Indo-Muslim perhaps?

    Replies: @Sher Singh, @Yevardian

    , @Emil Nikola Richard
    @Sher Singh


    In contests of strength, “truth” is the refuge of the weak.
     
    The thing about the duel in War and Peace is the bumbling fool Pierre won it with a lucky shot. That happens with pistol duels.

    Have you ever seen any of those fencer youtubes where the fencing teacher analyzes the swordplay in movies?

    I always thought this one was the most fun:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yzYEYyOsQtA&ab_channel=RottenTomatoesClassicTrailers

    Replies: @songbird, @Sher Singh

  812. @Beckow
    @AnonfromTN


    ...I look at the prospect optimistically (Russian style): being dead, we won’t have any problems.
     
    Well, it is not exactly something to look forward to. Some here critizise me for giving the odds of a nuclear exchange (of some kind, could be tactical) at around 10%. That may be too high today, but in 3 or 6 months it will feel about right. Events with 10% probability don't happen often - but they do happen. And the most-likely epicenter would be in Ukraine-Poland-Balts. One would think that would cool down the fever, but so far they are chomping at a chance to go all the way like teens at a rumba party.

    This is the war between the US and the RF.
     
    It is, but in a very contemporary way it also isn't: Ukies can be thrown under the bus, and so can the assorted Poles, Latvians, Romanians, etc...US has relatively little skin in this game. That suggests that when things get really hot, it will be Washington that will step back. But maybe not.

    Replies: @Greasy William

    That suggests that when things get really hot, it will be Washington that will step back. But maybe not.

    The RAND article indicates that the people behind the scenes in the US are looking to bail. We already know that Milley wants out.

    The problem is that there are domestic political considerations. Biden’s base hates/fears Russia with a passion and Trump’s approaching return to Facebook and Twitter will only increase white liberal existential angst. Biden really cannot go into the 2024 election having lost Ukraine to Russia.

    • Replies: @Beckow
    @Greasy William


    Biden really cannot go into the 2024 election having lost Ukraine to Russia.
     
    What are the odds that Biden will actually run? In a well managed performance - and that's what we have here, let's enjoy it - you replace exhausted players. It is an effective method that countries like Russia or China have never mastered.

    You could be right because the anti-Russia mania has been built up on a very broad scale. It will be hard to call it back. That's the dilemma: Nato provoked the war - the morons in Washington staring at maps after dinner - without thinking it through.

    It was a bluff, threat, game, even some ethnic revenge and an institutional need to do something. They ended up on a ledge with Russia having the upper hand. They are both holding nukes and it will be increasingly tempting. These are the fruits of lack of disciple, foresight, basic intelligence and some life experience.

    Replies: @A123

  813. @AnonfromTN
    @HeavilyMarbledSteak


    I’m also a fan of the Bahai faith. I like their saying that every religion deserved to be the world religion had it remained true to it’s principles.
     
    As late Douglas Adams (of “Hitchhikers guide to the galaxy” fame) said, every religion will tell you that murder is sin and will kill you to prove its point. In contrast to Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, and even Buddhism, Bahai faith is not guilty of mass murder. It deserves a lot of respect for that.

    They seem to believe that religions arise but then get corrupted
     
    That’s certainly true. Human institutions get corrupted easily. Therefore, if there were some kind of God, s/he would have considered his/her Church the worst enemy deserving the most severe punishment.

    Replies: @Another Polish Perspective, @HeavilyMarbledSteak

    Therefore, if there were some kind of God, s/he would have considered his/her Church the worst enemy deserving the most severe punishment.

    Well, this is exactly what had happened, according to Ezekiel 34, 7-12:

    7 “‘Therefore, you shepherds, hear the word of the Lord: 8 As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign Lord, because my flock lacks a shepherd and so has been plundered and has become food for all the wild animals, and because my shepherds did not search for my flock but cared for themselves rather than for my flock, 9 therefore, you shepherds, hear the word of the Lord: 10 This is what the Sovereign Lord says: I am against the shepherds and will hold them accountable for my flock. I will remove them from tending the flock so that the shepherds can no longer feed themselves. I will rescue my flock from their mouths, and it will no longer be food for them.

    11 “‘For this is what the Sovereign Lord says: I myself will search for my sheep and look after them. 12 As a shepherd looks after his scattered flock when he is with them, so will I look after my sheep. I will rescue them from all the places where they were scattered on a day of clouds and darkness.

    Knowing this passage (and others, also condemning shepherds) one has to really wonder how orthodox Jews can still cling to such things as “priestly blessing” (by Cohens). The feigned or learned ignorance of such passages may explain the relative scarcity of use of Prophetic writings in rabbinic Judaism, writings which probably are one of the most uncomfortable to listeners in the entire Bible. I have read that in the past rabbis did not even know Prophetic writings well – a wise choice of ignorance if one knows that they are always supposed to end their sermons on positive note.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priestly_Blessing

    Not that the Catholic Church uses the above Ezekiel passage much more – it is a natural invitation to question the authority of the Church (luckily, the Catholic Church is based on New Testament, so they can always say: It isn’t about us).

  814. @HeavilyMarbledSteak
    @AP

    All that is very well, but then the "mere act" of defying a social consensus and an establishment is not in itself always grounds for condemnation.

    You may condemn me for defying the Christian consensus, for instance, because you think it's perfect - but the point you were making wasn't about the "content" of my defiance, but about the mere fact that I defied a consensus, that I dared to think I "knew" better than practicing Jews, Christians, Sikhs, etc. You were elevating Establishment social consensus over personal judgment as a general principle, as can be seen by you including non-Christian social consensus.

    Now, if you're merely claiming that the Christian social consensus shouldn't be defied - that's quite a different, and much more limited, claim, which we'd have to evaluate on its merits.

    But first, make clear that you're not making a general principle that automatically an Establishment should not be defied - then, if you want to make a special claim for the Christian Establishment, since there is no general principle involved it simply has to be evaluated on its specific merits (which I've evaluated, and decided against).

    For instance, the first Christians were anti-social rebels against the Roman establishment and the social consensus of their time. So obviously, in some cases, you must approve of defying the social consensus.

    In reality, AP, you are an authoritarian who identifies as a shaper and a guardian of the social order - I mean by this, this is the role you wish to play in a social order - but you come from a tradition based on one of the worlds grandest examples of defying a powerful Establishment.

    So you are in a little bit of a bind. You'd like to make a general principle of submission to authority, but you can't. But in reality it's not so much of a bind after all - all revolutionaries face this issue. To come to power, they have to defy authority, but once they are the authority, they have to preach submission to authority.

    Replies: @AP

    You may condemn me for defying the Christian consensus, for instance, because you think it’s perfect

    I never claimed it’s perfect.

    But it’s the best we’ve got, so the task is to guard it, improve it, fix imperfections (this process will never be completed by humans) rather than to overthrow it, undermine it, defy it or destroy it.

    I dared to think I “knew” better than practicing Jews, Christians, Sikhs

    Indeed, in your arrogance you claim to know better about Christianity than a Christian, to understand Buddhism better than do practicing Buddhists, to understand Judaism better than do Orthodox devout Jews, you even to teach about Sikhism to a Sikh.

    You were elevating Establishment social consensus over personal judgment as a general principle, as can be seen by you including non-Christian social consensus.

    It’s a general principal that a dilettante such as you won’t understand a faith better than one who grew up in it and practices it, whatever that faith may be. If you had some humility you would recognize that.

    But first, make clear that you’re not making a general principle that automatically an Establishment should not be defied

    I’ve been pretty clear. Maybe you should listen more, rather than project your own problems onto the world?

    I have repeated probably dozens of times that it was right for Christians to overthrow the evil pre-Christian order and for Christians to overthrow other evil orders where they found them (i.e., that of the demon-worshipping Meso-Americans). I have also been clear that because the Christian order is good it ought to be defended against overthrow – strengthened, protected.

    The general principle of rebellion-for-rebellion’s sake is yours. And then you falsely accuse me of the opposite – authority-for-authority’s sake. I am not backwards looking-glass version of you.

    In reality, AP, you are an authoritarian

    You are as clueless about me as you are about everything else. Perhaps the funniest was when you accused me of being some sort of workaholic.

    Reality is not something you are capable of grasping.

    But a pattern is emerging here:

    You seem to support rebellion-for-rebellion’s sake as a general principle, and falsely accuse me of the opposite, authority for the sake of authority.

    You are a lazy parasite, and falsely accuse me of the opposite (some sort of intensely ambitious workaholic).

    You can’t resolve opposites within yourself as a normal functioning adult does, so you project them outward, take extreme one–sided positions, etc. Most people get over that by the age of eighteen.

    You’d like to make a general principle of submission to authority

    Nonsense. The one making general principles in terms of relationships towards authority is you.

    • Replies: @Ivashka the fool
    @AP

    Oh my goodness, you're not finished arguing yet both of you ?

    It has been going on for how long ?

    A week already?

    Now, stop it and listen to some music!

    https://youtu.be/44FyfR_x2kM

    🙂

    Replies: @songbird

    , @HeavilyMarbledSteak
    @AP


    Indeed, in your arrogance you claim to know better about Christianity than a Christian, to understand Buddhism better than do practicing Buddhists, to understand Judaism better than do Orthodox devout Jews, you even to teach about Sikhism to a Sikh
     
    Ok, but if Christians didn't arrogantly question Judaism, they wouldn't exist, if Buddhists didn't arrogantly question Hinduism then it wouldn't exist, if Judaism didn't arrogantly question Near East idol worship, it wouldn't exist, if Sikhism didn't question Hinduism, it wouldn't exist.

    So all those things I am arrogantly questioning themselves arose out of arrogantly questioning earlier things :)

    The truth is, one needs arrogance just as much as one needs humility - indeed, when all of society says you should be egotistical, going against this and trying to be humble is itself a supreme form of arrogance. But the right kind.

    If a Jew, a Christian, a Sikh, a Buddhist say something that plainly contradict reason and their own texts and greatest sages and teachers, I will have the arrogance to point this out, out of an abundance of humility :)

    Indeed, isn't it more humble to submit to the texts and sages rather than contemporary society :) Who is being arrogant here exactly lol.

    Its been said of Zen that it consists in being superior by realizing that everyone is absolutely equal ultimately.

    But I'm glad you're conceding a bit on work and realizing it is not the be all and end all of life. This is good.

    Replies: @Ivashka the fool, @AP

  815. @Yevardian
    @Beckow

    Well, I think you're more than half-right in your overall perspective on the diplomatic background, but I don't see how any person observing the events of the past year could see Russia's military performance as anything but disastrous, and an avoidable catastrophe (more so for Ukraine of course) for Russia in general.
    I went through the same dread phase re Russia's future as a great power that Karlin appears to going through now near the beginning of the war, so at least I've been consistent in that. It was pretty clear when it became evident that Azerbaijan appeared to have a better planned and structured military than the superpower it was recently a part of.

    Replies: @Beckow, @Ivashka the fool

    It was pretty clear when it became evident that Azerbaijan appeared to have a better planned and structured military than the superpower it was recently a part of.

    Well, the Azeri are basically a Turkish province by now, but for the strong Israeli influence. Perhaps in due time, as the Turkish influence in RusFed grows, Russian military will also be restored to some level of organization and fighting competence. Of course Israeli influence in RusFed is also already prominent, given that according to Pavel Priannikov (who is himself a mishling) some 50% of Muscovite political circles have Jewish ancestry (in a country where Jews today are probably not even 2% of the population).

    At least there’s something Azerbaijan, RusFed and Ukraine have in common: entrenched Jewish influence and a growing Turkish acumen. Sadly for your folks, Armenia couldn’t avail itself of both of these. Now you are left with courting the French and relaying on Iranian backing. A sad situation if there ever was one. Luckily, everything is not as bad as it seems: you still have the Kardashians’ feminine curvy soft power. Your homeland can still make amends with its Turkic neighbors by providing them with the graceful presence of your curvaceous brand of womenfolk.

  816. @Yevardian
    @Yahya


    Goddard, Bergman
     
    Mentioning junk like Goddard in the same sentence or paragraph as the god Bergman is extremely unfair. I'm not much of a fan of Fellini (especially his late films) outside of his one masterpiece La Dolce Vita, but again, not fair to put him in the same punching bag as Goddard or some other of the most insufferable New Wave directors, like Resnais.
    Anyhow, it might interest you to know that Bergman strongly disliked Goddard and most of the French New Wave (and Buñuel) as well.

    My beef with this technique is not that I dislike slow pacing; but that certain pretentious eurotrash directors seem to deliberately employ the snail’s pace to make their movie seem more sophisticated than it is.
     
    I wonder what you'd think of Antonioni, he was notoriously divisive of audiences for this, but I think he employed it very well, until his films started entering the territory of self-parody, as Tarkovsky's last two features did.

    Sure, some directors exploit the usage of glacial pace to impart to their films a bogus profundity (Theo Angelopoulos, Lars Von Trier come to mind), but don't forget it's also a matter of personal taste. Since you get annoyed at relatively harmless posters like songbird, your constant refrain of 'Eurotrash' is a bit hypocritical. I don't think you'd like it if people referred to.. (actually, I don't know any Arab directors offhand) as a 'dirty Arab' or such.


    This is the problem with Soviet and Eastern European movies in the general; they’re not stupid, certainly far more intelligent than the average Hollywood movie; but they fail at the basic function of keeping viewers engaged.
     
    Funny that you'd say that, because the USSR and the Eastern Bloc in general mandated a policy of 'Socialist Realism', whose theory purposely eschewed symbolism or 'pretentiousness' generally in their film industry until the late 1980s (with a thaw in early the 70s).

    I'd still highly recommend the Soviet coming-of-age films 'Courier', 'I Am Twenty' and 'Scarecrow' and if you haven't seen them already, all of those show the USSR could make intelligent and entertaining youth films as good as any from the USA when they wanted.

    The more recent 'The Return' by Zvyagintsev is another great film about childhood by Zvyagintsev, before he just started entering the territory of misery-porn (and inadvertently delighting critics of Russia, though I don't think that's his intention) with 'Leviathan'.

    Replies: @Yahya, @AP

    The more recent ‘The Return’ by Zvyagintsev is another great film about childhood by Zvyagintsev, before he just started entering the territory of misery-porn (and inadvertently delighting critics of Russia, though I don’t think that’s his intention) with ‘Leviathan’.

    His misery-porn movies such as Leviathan and Elena weren’t bad either, though Loveless was too much IMO.

    I read somewhere that the recently popular Korean film Parasite was supposedly based on Elena.

    • Replies: @Ivashka the fool
    @AP


    Korean film Parasite was supposedly based on Elena.
     
    Although Elena was good, Parasite was much better and much wider in its reflection about the nature of social conventions and (negative) social class interactions. And Parasite was funny, which Elena wasn't. I don't think both movies have much in common. The Return was Zvyagintsev's best movie un my opinion.

    Replies: @Ivashka the fool, @Yevardian

  817. @AP
    @HeavilyMarbledSteak


    You may condemn me for defying the Christian consensus, for instance, because you think it’s perfect
     
    I never claimed it's perfect.

    But it's the best we've got, so the task is to guard it, improve it, fix imperfections (this process will never be completed by humans) rather than to overthrow it, undermine it, defy it or destroy it.

    I dared to think I “knew” better than practicing Jews, Christians, Sikhs
     
    Indeed, in your arrogance you claim to know better about Christianity than a Christian, to understand Buddhism better than do practicing Buddhists, to understand Judaism better than do Orthodox devout Jews, you even to teach about Sikhism to a Sikh.

    You were elevating Establishment social consensus over personal judgment as a general principle, as can be seen by you including non-Christian social consensus.
     
    It's a general principal that a dilettante such as you won't understand a faith better than one who grew up in it and practices it, whatever that faith may be. If you had some humility you would recognize that.

    But first, make clear that you’re not making a general principle that automatically an Establishment should not be defied
     
    I've been pretty clear. Maybe you should listen more, rather than project your own problems onto the world?

    I have repeated probably dozens of times that it was right for Christians to overthrow the evil pre-Christian order and for Christians to overthrow other evil orders where they found them (i.e., that of the demon-worshipping Meso-Americans). I have also been clear that because the Christian order is good it ought to be defended against overthrow - strengthened, protected.

    The general principle of rebellion-for-rebellion's sake is yours. And then you falsely accuse me of the opposite - authority-for-authority's sake. I am not backwards looking-glass version of you.

    In reality, AP, you are an authoritarian
     
    You are as clueless about me as you are about everything else. Perhaps the funniest was when you accused me of being some sort of workaholic.

    Reality is not something you are capable of grasping.

    But a pattern is emerging here:

    You seem to support rebellion-for-rebellion's sake as a general principle, and falsely accuse me of the opposite, authority for the sake of authority.

    You are a lazy parasite, and falsely accuse me of the opposite (some sort of intensely ambitious workaholic).

    You can't resolve opposites within yourself as a normal functioning adult does, so you project them outward, take extreme one--sided positions, etc. Most people get over that by the age of eighteen.

    You’d like to make a general principle of submission to authority
     
    Nonsense. The one making general principles in terms of relationships towards authority is you.

    Replies: @Ivashka the fool, @HeavilyMarbledSteak

    Oh my goodness, you’re not finished arguing yet both of you ?

    It has been going on for how long ?

    A week already?

    Now, stop it and listen to some music!

    🙂

    • Replies: @songbird
    @Ivashka the fool

    Not a bad song, though I can't understand it.

    BTW, what do you think of Dmitri's idea that Russians are "very introverted?" (I believe he employed the same term for Japan.)

    I've sometimes been in a room, where the loudest person was a Russian. Of course, there is a range within every group, but I don't think I would call any European group very introverted, except perhaps Finns.

    I've previously said that one of the reasons I think Japanese culture is interesting is because it appears to me to be made by introverts (in sharp contrast to what passes for Western culture today.) Believe they have more shy characters and more inner monologue. And it is different in other ways too, though I struggle to articulate them precisely. I'd say there a lot of unvoiced motivations and secret purposes. Not "mysterious mystery", but so that the audience can put themselves into a characters mind, without anything needing to said, and so that the dialogue can skirt around it, and it can be seen that it is something that the character doesn't need to say - that in some instances, it is more polite or gives the character more depth not to say it. In short, more sublety.

    Not an authority on Russian culture, but I definitely don't get the same sense. Their cinema, from what I've seen of it, is very Hollywood-like (saving the older stuff from the USSR).

    Replies: @Ivashka the fool

  818. @Sher Singh
    @Yevardian


    Sher Singh spamming his Indo-Aryan schtick
     
    If you're going to hate non-Christian religion then do it openly.
    Don't accuse me of being ethno-centric when I'm the least of the lot.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11689339/Indian-brawl-erupts-Melbournes-Fed-Square-Sikh-attacking-Hindu-nationalists.html


    Being a non-superstitious scientist, I don’t think duels solve anything. Depending on who is more ruthless and a better shot, the person who is right or the one who is wrong can be killed. The truth can be established by a duel no more than it can be established by voting.
     
    In contests of strength, "truth" is the refuge of the weak.

    Replies: @Mikel, @Emil Nikola Richard

    Don’t accuse me of being ethno-centric when I’m the least of the lot.

    Well, that much is true. I still haven’t been able to figure out which ethnic group you belong to. Indo-Muslim perhaps?

    • LOL: sudden death
    • Replies: @Sher Singh
    @Mikel

    Ibero-Muslim I fund refugee sanctuaries in Bilbao.

    I look forward to Utah joining Aztlan.

    , @Yevardian
    @Mikel

    He's Punjabi (both provinces on the Indo-Paki border), whom comprise probably over 70% of subcontinentals in Australia.
    Although I dunno if your question was sarcastic, since 95% of his posts are Sikh breast-beating. Anyway the overwhelming majority of Sikhs are Punjabis, whilst most Punjabis are Sikhs. I think it's basically a religion you're born into or you're not, although like Jews you can convert, but it's difficult and discouraged.
    I've never really read into the subject, but I'm pretty certain there aren't any Sikhs south of the Deccan.
    I remember in the first (An Area of Darkness) of V.S Naipaul's 'India Trilogy' his matter-of-fact account of a Sikh who befriended Naipaul, sensing a fellow kindred spirit (probably based on Naipaul's assholish and arrogant demeanor), and Naipaul observing this Sikh bullying random people on the train, constantly provoking fights, talking about his expat days in London and how he was dissapointed the British lost their imperial mentality, or ranting to him about Dravidians being 'natural born slaves' and so on and so forth.

    Replies: @Mikel

  819. @Mr. Hack
    @HeavilyMarbledSteak


    As you should. It is a great faith that I learn a lot from.
     
    Not being the greatest embodiment of a Christian (I still feel that I haven't matured much beyond the first rung of the latter leading to theosis) I'm hesitant to criticize other faith systems, and indeed I was brought up to be very tolerant of those that practice other faiths. But I really do believe that Jesus Christ was a part and parcel of the Godhead, that places him at the apex of all other faith systems. He warned the world:

    For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
     
    Matthew 24.5

    His mission and place in the universe was unique. No other "new messengers" will be sent to replace his glory.

    Replies: @HeavilyMarbledSteak, @Sher Singh, @Another Polish Perspective

    Matthew 24 is “The Little Apocalypse”, or apocalypse inside gospels. It speaks about The End Times, so you must first determine whether The End Times are at hand to really treat it as a description of here and now. This in itself is eminently arduous task, especially as Christianity seems to be structured around expectations of the End, which already was to happen several times, around:
    1) 400 CE – The Fall of Rome as TEOTWAWKI, Arian Goths persecuting Nicaean Christians
    2) 1000-1300 Millenarism, Joachim da Fiore and Crusades (at least on the Catholic side of Christianity), Christians persecuting Christians – 4th crusade, the Great Schism
    3) 1600+ Luther as Antichrist, Protestantism and 30-Years War: certainly Christians persecuted Christians in the name of Christ
    4) 1917-1945 Communism & Nazism, David Star in Ghettos as Beast Mark
    5) Now? Well, the relative lack of religiosity, lack of any serious heresies and schisms would speak against it (“For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ.”) But still there are some other disturbing signs, like “wars, rumours of wars”, monkeypox etc.

    The task is arduous as per words of apocalypses people will not have much agency during the End Times: “power over Earth will be given to the Beast”, “many will be deceived” etc – or maybe it is just us having a problem with God’s omniscience… as we certainly do, being 4 times mistaken already

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @Another Polish Perspective

    Trying to place a precise date on the end times or the apocalypse as it's often referred to is a fruitless occupation, IMHO.


    Jesus answered: ‘Watch out that no one deceives you. For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many. You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. All these are the beginning of birth pains’” (Matthew 24:4-8).
     
    Certainly it sounds like it could come very soon. The last time that there was a great commotion surrounding these events was in 2012. Movies, books, TV religious programing were all pointing to the beginning of the end times. Well, it's 2023 and we're all still here. This is a good wikipedia entry that reviews all of these events leading up to the 2012 end times cycle:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_phenomenon#:~:text=The%20idea%20that%20the%20year,the%20Internet%2C%20particularly%20on%20YouTube.
  820. @Mikel
    @Sher Singh


    Don’t accuse me of being ethno-centric when I’m the least of the lot.
     
    Well, that much is true. I still haven't been able to figure out which ethnic group you belong to. Indo-Muslim perhaps?

    Replies: @Sher Singh, @Yevardian

    Ibero-Muslim I fund refugee sanctuaries in Bilbao.

    I look forward to Utah joining Aztlan.

    • LOL: Mikel
  821. @LatW
    @Dmitry


    Anything is possible, but I’m pretty sure AnonfromTN is not Putin, just another passive observer, like all of us, with no responsibility for the events of politics.
     
    Of course. It's just unseemly when even countries such as Moldova are forcibly being dragged into this, when everyone knows that in case of Russia's takeover of Ukraine (no matter how unrealistic it may seem now), the next targets would be Moldova and Georgia. It's like these countries are sitting there, doing literally nothing, but Russia still pretends like she has the right to harass them. You say that he is just an observer but the problem is that both the Kremlin and the bulk of the Russian population believes this. Frankly it looks like someone is just walking around the neighborhood looking to pester others because they have some made up insecurities.

    Why pull up Moldova and even Romania when these countries do not even border Russia (except the Transnestr which is occupied and doesn't count)? Why stir things up knowing how quickly these types of conflicts can spread?


    Remember when Utu was angry against German Reader, like he was the Chancellor of Germany.
     
    Well, not only that, utu made some really nasty personal remarks at poor German-Reader, that was frankly brutal. But you're right, some of us take these things too seriously here. LOL
    But I do like this idea of yours of an "Online UN roundtable", it's hilarious! You could be the attache for the Russo-Jewish diaspora. Or should we send you in as an inspector to check the Polish media law?

    Do you think it’s unplanned?
     
    The US must've known at least a month ahead that there would be an invasion. Maybe even in December 2021. But the US could not plan how the first days or weeks of it would go.

    It could be unrealistic to say (assuming more planning than America’s politicians can attain), but it looks like it could the famous “slow cook frog”.
     
    Well, that's exactly what I posted above, that they are boiling the frog slowly. They have to provide these weapons packages in increments to avert a rapid escalation, to let everyone adjust. Look how far we have gotten already - from Stingers to a whole parade of tanks. Yes, that's why it's believable that they could provide air support eventually.

    It’s already a lot of medium weapons, including the first infantry fighting vehicle to Ukraine. Although still the older stock from the army storage. It’s like steady, slow and methodical increase in the type of the weapons, which after 11 months is so much of a significant category change.
     
    Right, when you provide these infantry fighting vehicles, you have to provide tanks because these vehicles are supposed to work together with tanks, you create an offensive triad - tanks, infantry vehicles and air support (for example, combat helicopters such as Apache, which are incredibly impressive and expensive). If you are providing one of these components, it means the rest should follow.

    Retrospectively, doesn’t this look like they are organized?
     
    Yes, it is well organized now and I would even say highly organized given the differences among countries and how they're able to consolidate the position and work together within a large coalition. The public is also supportive.

    But my point was more along the lines that they may not have known how the first weeks/months of the invasion would go. Ukraine should've prepared better - they could've produced way more Stugna and Korsar, purchased other things potentially. Possibly produced a long or middle range missile. But I don't want to blame Ukraine, they have suffered too much.

    Btw, I noticed you mentioned Nietzsche's "Anti-Christ" in a couple of your posts. Not to delve into a religious discussion, I just wanted to note that Nietzsche criticized Christian morality not just for being born out of ressentiment, as he put it, but for basically moving the center of gravity from life to afterlife, and when he defined the value of life, he didn't necessarily mean materialism, but celebrating the exuberance of life and the will to power (essentially the will to thrive and assert oneself). He defined it as "lying away from reality", and focusing on that which does not exist, is what he defined as nihilism.

    The will to power could include these "bourgeoisie values" that you guys were arguing about but it is definitely not reduced to them - it is something much higher and more intense, something very subjective and individualistic and less normative.

    He also criticized compassion because it apparently takes away from one's spiritual vigor, but I don't think today's Christians who try to take care of the unlucky members of society in an institutional manner lack compassion - no, they are compassionate, but they approach this matter in a rational way. They are not Nietzschean at all - since according to his outlook, it is better to not engage in compassion at all. Ok, he's not as monstrous as this sounds, you have to delve deeper to find the good and the beautiful in his philosophy.

    Replies: @Dmitry, @Mikel

    everyone knows that in case of Russia’s takeover of Ukraine (no matter how unrealistic it may seem now), the next targets would be Moldova and Georgia.

    Do Russian nationalists have designs on the whole of Georgia? My understanding of that region is that the Russians have already carved out the parts of Georgia inhabited by pro-Russian majorities with only formal annexation pending.

    I have certainly read Russians threatening to march on Warsaw or Berlin but I always interpreted that kind of threats as a reaction to the perceived animosity of the Poles and the Germans rather than to any expansionist wishes to non-Russian lands. In any case, now that they’ve discovered that their army is unable to even take Avdiivka, I doubt they’ll have much appetite left for faraway lands when the war in Ukraine is over.

    • Replies: @Ivashka the fool
    @Mikel


    Do Russian nationalists have designs on the whole of Georgia?
     
    God forbid.

    Russian Empire adding Gruzya to its realm was one of Imperial Elites' major mistakes, only rivaled by the Tsars annexing a large part of Poland and bringing in all these Jews. The Gruzyeens should have been left alone to be ethnically cleansed and erased through a competitive effort of Persians and Turks. That would have averted the birth of Ordzhonikidze, Stalin, Beria and Gvishiani. It would have been much better for the whole mankind. It would have been worth it.

    Never again!
    , @LatW
    @Mikel


    I have certainly read Russians threatening to march on Warsaw or Berlin
     
    Do you know the phrase "We can repeat it" (Можем повторить)? It's their favorite phrase to throw around. As if there are no others out there who can also repeat things they've done.

    What they say is not that relevant, a lot of it is just gopnik talk*. I wasn't talking about what would happen now, but what could've happened, hypothetically, if they had managed to, let's say, take a few large cities, consolidate the gains and then wait, I don't know, 5-10 years or so. What they say is hardly relevant, they will do what they can do. Or not.

    *Btw, Boris Johnson said that Putin told him shortly before the invasion: "'Boris, I don't want to hurt you but, with a missile, it would only take a minute'". LOL As in, it will be so quick, you won't even feel it.

    Replies: @Ivashka the fool

  822. @Yahya
    @Yevardian


    Since you get annoyed at relatively harmless posters like songbird, your constant refrain of ‘Eurotrash’ is a bit hypocritical. I don’t think you’d like it if people referred to.. (actually, I don’t know any Arab directors offhand) as a ‘dirty Arab’ or such.
     
    Well "Eurotrash" is defined by wiki as "a term for certain Europeans, particularly those perceived to be socialites, stylish and affluent." Not really meant to be a racial insult like "white trash"; just a humorous label for a certain type of European; of which many of these directors fit the bill. In fact, i've seen the term "eurotrash" applied in the context of movies before; which is how I got the idea of calling these pretentious directors by that label. Not meant to insult Europeans as a whole.

    As for songbird; well he is only harmless insofar as he is a weakling. But his behavior and attitudes are vile and irritating. My beef with him goes way back; and though I admit to starting many of our current exchanges; he was the one who fired the first shot. So I don't feel sorry (sometimes, but not most of the time) for insulting him harshly. He deserves it.


    I wonder what you’d think of Antonioni
     
    Haven't watched his movies.

    Funny that you’d say that, because the USSR and the Eastern Bloc in general mandated a policy of ‘Socialist Realism’, whose theory purposely eschewed symbolism or ‘pretentiousness’ generally in their film industry until the late 1980s (with a thaw in early the 70s).
     
    Well my objection to Eastern European movies aren't that they are pretentious; but that they are dull and boring. I'm obviously talking about tendencies; i've enjoyed a fair number of entertaining Soviet/EE movies.

    Maybe I should have gotten his email in case, although I don’t think he appreciated my appreciation of utu’s ‘anti-German cunt rants’ as the best comedy posted on these Open Threads since Karlin left.
     
    Lol, I told German_twat.... er... Reader before that utu's insults were comedic gold; probably the most enjoyable comments to read for combining sheer creativity and pithiness. But I think GR is like me in that he takes insults personally; so I can understand why he disliked utu. He was admirably willing to concede utu's positive traits though; but still hedged by calling him "stupid" and "insufferable" after utu had left.

    Funnily enough, I admired both these commentors; and thought they were basically decent and intelligent people. So it was interesting watching them call each other "cunt", "twat", “mental case”, “lunatic”, “absurdly stupid”, “deeply pathetic”, and my favorite “imbecile who should have been locked away in a institutional cell”. But then even Benjamin Franklin got into a feud with John Adams.

    'Give them great meals of beef and iron and steel, they will eat like wolves and fight like devils.' - Shakespeare

    Replies: @LatW, @Ivashka the fool

    Well “Eurotrash” is defined by wiki as “a term for certain Europeans, particularly those perceived to be socialites, stylish and affluent.”

    Nah, back in the day of Love Parades and Ibiza’s MDMA fueled parties, Eurotrash was the slang for the young feckless Euros drifting on petty jobs between Berlin, London and Amsterdam. That’s what Irvine Welsh wrote about in his Acid House novels and he knew the scene quite well.

    https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/38732506-eurotrash

    BTW if you didn’t watch Acid House the movie, based on Welsh’s book then I recommend it for its savage and grotesque humor.

    (Nevermind the Rotten Tomatoes and IMDB ratings, most Americans film aficionados lack the background to appreciate the subtle philosophy of this movie).

    What your Wiki article describes is more around the lines of clochard chic, poorgeois – le sale est le nouveau cool, that I am witnessing with some dismay in my own grown kids ans their friends.

    https://www.marieclaire.fr/le-sale-est-il-le-nouveau-cool,1298568.asp

    Well, at least they’re not Skinheads…

    😉

    • Thanks: Mr. Hack
    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @Ivashka the fool

    In addition to your comments dealing with historical/religious subjects, I've always enjoyed your comments dealing with topics exposing modern culture, trends, music, art and of course some of your more colorful conspiracy theories. Hopefully, this comment will initiate a new era of Ivashkaite esoterica? :-)
    http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-fJAMwHDDJOo/VD52jzXtHTI/AAAAAAAABXg/rIFQ3RZp3SM/s1600/the%2Bgrand%2Bwazoo%2Bback.jpg
    Old Mr. Hack looking for culture in all the wrong places, locked up in his underground bomb shelter in the sonoran desert. :-)

    Replies: @Ivashka the fool

    , @Mr. Hack
    @Ivashka the fool


    "Well, at least they're not skinheads"
     
    https://lowres.cartooncollections.com/skinheads-nazis-neo_nazis-paranoid-personnel_department-social-issues-CC39663_low.jpg

    Thoughts of the dutiful, experienced father shielding his offspring from any possible youthful indiscretions that could possibly come back to haunt them in the future. :-)

  823. @Yahya
    @songbird


    I (and you know this perfectly well) was referring to oil money, NOT Saudi national identity.
     
    No, I didn’t know you were referring to oil money. I thought you were at least not dumb enough to assume my family made its money from oil; considering that oil in Saudi Arabia is mostly a state-owned endeavor; and that only royals directly benefit from oil revenues (and we are far from being royals or anything close to them). But apparently you are not knowledgeable enough about these basic facts; so I will tell you clearly that my family made zero money off oil, we don’t even own shares in ARAMCO now that it has been listed. I’ve mentioned the business we are involved in to you back in AE’s blog, but you must have forgotten. It’s as far from oil and gas as you can get.

    Also, just fyi, there are lots of rich Egyptians as well. Some of my Egyptian friends’ parents are several times wealthier than my own; so you shouldn’t assume any Arab with money would automatically derives it from oil; or indeed even be a Gulf Arab. The wealthy Egyptians and Levantines tend to be more understated in their behavior than Gulf Arabs; whom if you have visited London and Paris, would know tend to be conspicuous. You once insulted my mother by insinuating that my father “married down a few rungs in the socio-economic ladder”; but you are an ignoramus who doesn’t understand that not everyone native Egyptian is poor or of low socio-economic status. In fact; my mother tends to be the snobby one out of my parents; and sometimes mocks my father from a position of haughtiness (though this has more to do with family lineage rather than wealth).


    To paraphrase, “You are just a Mick, a LARPer – you can’t object to the destruction of Western Civilization because it is not yours.”
     
    Stop paraphrasing (viz. put words in my mouth); you always twist my words and construct strawmen.

    You think I am insulting blacks? Very few that are on here to insult. Don’t think this would be the right place for it.

    Say that I am motivated by low impulses, instead of love for something.
     

    Yes this comment of yours was motivated by nothing but the most benign; saintly intentions.

    songbird says:
    April 26, 2019 at 8:09 pm GMT • 3.8 years ago • 100 Words ↑
    @German_reader
    Let’s suppose, you merely took Europeans and set them down in America. Would they not say they loved diversity, once some nigger accosted them in the airport with the question?

    Once, I was accosted with some formulation like “Sir, you don’t look racist, can I interview you as part of my college project about diversity?” Did I tell him that he was ape accosting me mere feet from where one of my ancestors died building the city that gorillas like him had invaded and defiled. That only 10% of blacks should be educated past the 6th grade? That they should all be sent back to Africa? No, I politely told him that I did not have the time, which was true enough, though I would I have told him that even if I were an old pensioner.

    • Replies: @German_reader

    https://www.unz.com/akarlin/open-thread-74/#comment-3178985

     

    Because we all know how normal it is to call someone an "ape" and "gorilla" for the sinful act of politely asking for a college assignment interview; something no-one proper human being does - only primates.

    None of this is insulting to blacks at all. Only a woke vegan enthrall to the regime can possibly take offense at such a benevolent sentiment.

    Replies: @songbird

    >I think it is something that requires a tight balance and a lot of formalism. I’m not sure that there is a state that quite pulls it off,

    Obviously you’ve never heard of Malaysia.

    No, that is not what I meant at all. Ethnic Chinese are the goose that layed the golden egg and their TFR in Malaysia is even lower than that in Singapore and Taiwan. And the TFR of Malays is cratering as well. Doesn’t appear to me like a healthy society.

    [MORE]

    Also, just fyi, there are lots of rich Egyptians as well.

    Obviously, there is going to be a few, with a population of about 108 million. Who would doubt it? There are lots of big mansions in poor countries, even Haiti. But what I do know about Egypt is that my relatives went there and gave food to beggar-children who seemed to rarely experience such good fortune, as to have a good meal. They were also slaughtering animals in alleyways.

    I don’t think that happens in Saudi? And Egypt has the Suez Canal, fronts the Med, has extremely fertile land around the Nile, possibly higher human capital, and is a global tourist Mecca (though I guess the last could be said of Saudi due to the Hajj). I think one would say that other than its lack of oil, Egypt is more “gifted” than Saudi, and yet Saudi is objectively more prosperous, with a higher per capita, so much so that it attracts many migrants. That is “oil money.” It’s kind of like Dubai (rough analogy only), but if Dubai hadn’t run out of oil. And if you want to tell me that an intelligent person can’t benefit from it – that the gains are only to Saudi royals, who get the first checks – then I don’t believe it.

    BTW, thought you said you were on some sort of scholarship? Tell me, what would it have come to if you had to pay it yourself? Or was that only your friends, and you were paying your own way?

    Because we all know how normal it is to call someone an “ape” and “gorilla” for the sinful act of politely asking for a college assignment interview; something no-one proper human being does – only primates.

    First, he wasn’t being polite. He was telling me that he majoring in grievance studies against my people to become a commissar and get in on the graft – and I was already paying for it. Did you not understand that? You have to read inbetween the lines.

    Put it all together now, in case you haven’t: he was doing that, despite his folks living the same distance from Boston as Europe is to sub-Sahara, only in the 1950s or even later. (My grandfather had an acquaintance knicknamed “Nigger Jim” or something who was white – and probably palish. That was in his yearbook – I saw it.)

    AND he was doing that despite trillions of dollars, and endless sacrifices for people like him. AND the exact same thing is happening in Europe, and he is part of that too (if perhaps unwittingly). AND that is not the first and only time that sort of thing has happened to me.

    You think that is being polite?! Sorry, you couldn’t be more wrong. There are not many things that you can do that are ruder than that. Wouldn’t have minded at all, if I were walking in Alabama, and he had merely insulted me, but none of those other things happened.

    Only a woke vegan enthrall to the regime can possibly take offense at such a benevolent sentiment.

    Please, don’t overreact here. Quite common language internationally, and every place where it is accepted is non-woke and not being mass-invaded. Quite a coincidence, wouldn’t you say? The Chinese even have a term “white monkey”, (BTW, have you seen The Black Ship scrolls about Perry’s arrival in Japan?) and I’d be surprised if you hadn’t heard some insulting stuff about Euros yourself, behind the scenes. The genius of the regime here is they don’t have to say that, they’ve turned “white” into a pejorative and can say it in the open, full of venom and bile. From the top of bureaucracies, with everyone in earshot.

    Stop paraphrasing (viz. put words in my mouth); you always twist my words and construct strawmen.

    What strawmen? Did you or did you not call me a “Mick?” And call Silvio a “Balkanoid” (or some such?) Tell me, what was your purpose in that?

    • Agree: Sher Singh
    • Replies: @Yahya
    @songbird


    But what I do know about Egypt is that my relatives went there and gave food to beggar-children who seemed to rarely experience such good fortune, as to have a good meal. They were also slaughtering animals in alleyways.
     
    Well yes that’s true. In Egypt there is unfortunately severe widespread poverty. The statistics says 30% or so of Egyptians live below the poverty line; but of course we all know these “poverty lines” are notoriously vague and subject to change. So who knows what the real rate is; or how poverty can be defined precisely. Part of that can be blamed by gross corruption and governmental mismanagement; part of it on the irresponsible breeding of the poor; and most of it simply to the misfortune of having low levels of human capital and little natural resources.

    In Saudi Arabia the poverty rate is almost certainly less. But I don’t really get your point. You calling me an “oil Arab” makes about as much sense as calling a Russian “oil Slav”. In fact; a rich Russian is multiple times more likely to have made his gains in oil & gas; since the industry is privatized there unlike Saudi Arabia. But still; just doesn’t make sense to call a Russian who made his money in the tech industry an “oil Slav”.

    I think this ties in with your tendency to view everyone as avatars of their racial/ethnic group; instead of as individuals in their own right. For example you once expressed surprise at my having a negative opinion of Hitler, saying “I believe Arabs, when they think of Hitler, view him in a positive to neutral light. Has that changed?” As if I’m supposed to represent and conform to my ethnic group’s opinion instead of forming an individual one. Also your tendency to blame any black you come across for the welfare payments made to a minority of blacks. It’s a peculiar way of looking at the world.


    BTW, thought you said you were on some sort of scholarship? Tell me, what would it have come to if you had to pay it yourself? Or was that only your friends, and you were paying your own way?
     
    I was not; never said I was. My friends are mostly Egyptians who don’t have access to any scholarship either. Their parents paid for their college education. There are many Gulf and Med Arabs who are well-off enough, even by first world standards, to afford university without government aid. What’s so difficult for to understand about that?

    He was telling me that he majoring in grievance studies against my people to become a commissar and get in on the graft – and I was already paying for it.
     
    Well you didn’t mention it in your original comment. And I don’t believe you now; seems like a convenient excuse for insulting the guy.

    Put it all together now, in case you haven’t: he was doing that, despite his folks living the same distance from Boston as Europe is to sub-Sahara, only in the 1950s or even later. Wouldn’t have minded at all, if I were walking in Alabama, and he had merely insulted me, but none of those other things happened.
     
    Your trying to pull a trick by painting African-Americans in the North as invaders akin to illegal immigrants; when in reality they are American citizens who are within their right to live anywhere in American territory, north or south. I hesitate to speak for Americans; but the normative view is that it’s both normal and natural for American citizens to relocate anywhere in American territory; and many of them do, both white and non-white. In fact; this is a common theme in Great American novels; for example in John Steinbeck’s Mice & Men. The situation is not comparable to illegal Mexicans swimming across the Rio Grande. You are trying to make it so by treating blacks as “invaders” and “intruders”; in other words not really American citizens. But again; that’s not the normative view; and I’m happy to back it up with statistics if you don’t believe me.

    Though you like to paint blacks as newcomers and invaders; it is in fact you, the Irishman, who is the relative johnny-come-lately. Makes your language and viewpoints all the more hypocritical and egregious. As for calling the guy an “ape” and “gorilla” because of wealth transfer to blacks; again you are making him an avatar of his race; instead of treating him as an individual. You have difficulty understanding that people aren’t responsible for their group sins or misbehaviors. I’m quite sure you’d be offended if a WASP demanded all Irish be grateful for their prosperity in the US; and told you “my ancestors built the place which Irish monkeys like you are invading and defiling”. That’s unlikely to happen in the Current Year; but it could very well have happened 150 years ago. No human being with any dignity would tell the WASP “well okay, Mr. Johnson, I apologize for invading your country; and voting for Democrats and their pro-migrant, anti-native agenda. I’m just going to know my place from now on and not presume to ask you to fill out a survey”.

    Replies: @songbird

  824. @Ivashka the fool
    @AP

    Oh my goodness, you're not finished arguing yet both of you ?

    It has been going on for how long ?

    A week already?

    Now, stop it and listen to some music!

    https://youtu.be/44FyfR_x2kM

    🙂

    Replies: @songbird

    Not a bad song, though I can’t understand it.

    BTW, what do you think of Dmitri’s idea that Russians are “very introverted?” (I believe he employed the same term for Japan.)

    I’ve sometimes been in a room, where the loudest person was a Russian. Of course, there is a range within every group, but I don’t think I would call any European group very introverted, except perhaps Finns.

    I’ve previously said that one of the reasons I think Japanese culture is interesting is because it appears to me to be made by introverts (in sharp contrast to what passes for Western culture today.) Believe they have more shy characters and more inner monologue. And it is different in other ways too, though I struggle to articulate them precisely. I’d say there a lot of unvoiced motivations and secret purposes. Not “mysterious mystery”, but so that the audience can put themselves into a characters mind, without anything needing to said, and so that the dialogue can skirt around it, and it can be seen that it is something that the character doesn’t need to say – that in some instances, it is more polite or gives the character more depth not to say it. In short, more sublety.

    Not an authority on Russian culture, but I definitely don’t get the same sense. Their cinema, from what I’ve seen of it, is very Hollywood-like (saving the older stuff from the USSR).

    • Replies: @Ivashka the fool
    @songbird

    Russians are only introverted when they don't know other people in the group. And you are right that there is a great deal of regional variation in Russian population.

    Southern Russians are basically identical to the Eastern Ukrainians in their attitudes, while North-Western Russians are mentally closer to their Fenno-Scandian neighbors. IRC Dima is from Ye-burg (pun intended), the largest city in the Urals, a region which is in a category of its own. Ural people are known for their peculiar pronunciation of Russian language (that seems becoming somewhat fashionable lately) and being somewhat of a rude character, at least compared to the Moscovites and the Pitertsy. Perhaps people are more introverted in the Urals ? Can't say, I have never been there.

    Regarding the Japanese culture, although I don't know much about it, I believe it is strongly influenced by the clan and caste system where everyone has an assigned role to follow, and also Zen Buddhism where somewhat of an inward looking attitude is sometimes seen as preferable. Although Japanese can be quite eccentric too, I am thinking of Ikkyu Sojun here (Altan wouldn't be happy about me mentioning him) or Mishima.

    Both Russians and Japanese perhaps have in common the fact that they sometimes disregard rational thinking and would seek intuitive insight, something that Westerners mostly avoid.

    Replies: @AP, @Dmitry

  825. @Mikel
    @LatW


    everyone knows that in case of Russia’s takeover of Ukraine (no matter how unrealistic it may seem now), the next targets would be Moldova and Georgia.
     
    Do Russian nationalists have designs on the whole of Georgia? My understanding of that region is that the Russians have already carved out the parts of Georgia inhabited by pro-Russian majorities with only formal annexation pending.

    I have certainly read Russians threatening to march on Warsaw or Berlin but I always interpreted that kind of threats as a reaction to the perceived animosity of the Poles and the Germans rather than to any expansionist wishes to non-Russian lands. In any case, now that they've discovered that their army is unable to even take Avdiivka, I doubt they'll have much appetite left for faraway lands when the war in Ukraine is over.

    Replies: @Ivashka the fool, @LatW

    Do Russian nationalists have designs on the whole of Georgia?

    God forbid.

    Russian Empire adding Gruzya to its realm was one of Imperial Elites’ major mistakes, only rivaled by the Tsars annexing a large part of Poland and bringing in all these Jews. The Gruzyeens should have been left alone to be ethnically cleansed and erased through a competitive effort of Persians and Turks. That would have averted the birth of Ordzhonikidze, Stalin, Beria and Gvishiani. It would have been much better for the whole mankind. It would have been worth it.

    Never again!

    • LOL: LatW
  826. @songbird
    @Ivashka the fool

    Not a bad song, though I can't understand it.

    BTW, what do you think of Dmitri's idea that Russians are "very introverted?" (I believe he employed the same term for Japan.)

    I've sometimes been in a room, where the loudest person was a Russian. Of course, there is a range within every group, but I don't think I would call any European group very introverted, except perhaps Finns.

    I've previously said that one of the reasons I think Japanese culture is interesting is because it appears to me to be made by introverts (in sharp contrast to what passes for Western culture today.) Believe they have more shy characters and more inner monologue. And it is different in other ways too, though I struggle to articulate them precisely. I'd say there a lot of unvoiced motivations and secret purposes. Not "mysterious mystery", but so that the audience can put themselves into a characters mind, without anything needing to said, and so that the dialogue can skirt around it, and it can be seen that it is something that the character doesn't need to say - that in some instances, it is more polite or gives the character more depth not to say it. In short, more sublety.

    Not an authority on Russian culture, but I definitely don't get the same sense. Their cinema, from what I've seen of it, is very Hollywood-like (saving the older stuff from the USSR).

    Replies: @Ivashka the fool

    Russians are only introverted when they don’t know other people in the group. And you are right that there is a great deal of regional variation in Russian population.

    Southern Russians are basically identical to the Eastern Ukrainians in their attitudes, while North-Western Russians are mentally closer to their Fenno-Scandian neighbors. IRC Dima is from Ye-burg (pun intended), the largest city in the Urals, a region which is in a category of its own. Ural people are known for their peculiar pronunciation of Russian language (that seems becoming somewhat fashionable lately) and being somewhat of a rude character, at least compared to the Moscovites and the Pitertsy. Perhaps people are more introverted in the Urals ? Can’t say, I have never been there.

    Regarding the Japanese culture, although I don’t know much about it, I believe it is strongly influenced by the clan and caste system where everyone has an assigned role to follow, and also Zen Buddhism where somewhat of an inward looking attitude is sometimes seen as preferable. Although Japanese can be quite eccentric too, I am thinking of Ikkyu Sojun here (Altan wouldn’t be happy about me mentioning him) or Mishima.

    Both Russians and Japanese perhaps have in common the fact that they sometimes disregard rational thinking and would seek intuitive insight, something that Westerners mostly avoid.

    • Thanks: songbird
    • Replies: @AP
    @Ivashka the fool


    Ural people are known for their peculiar pronunciation of Russian language (that seems becoming somewhat fashionable lately
     
    The Urals accent sounds kind of clipped or abrupt, less melodic. It actually reminds me a bit of Ukrainian spoken in Lviv versus in central Ukraine (I‘ve visited the southern Urals a couple of times, never been to Yekaterinburg).
    , @Dmitry
    @Ivashka the fool


    Russians are only introverted when they don’t know other people
     
    This is the meaning of the introverted society. In the evening with friends, you are joking like Irish at 11am with some unknown tax official they never met before. It's not less friendly people, but in Irish culture they are spreading it with anyone.

    great deal of regional variation in Russian population.

    Southern Russians are basically identical to the Eastern Ukrainians
     

    I'm talking about all Russian society including Ukrainians, in comparison to other nationalities. It's also a more reactive and passive kind of talking.

    If you know often Poles. After an hour, you will often know all their biography, about ten of their opinions about the Second World War, about 5 amusing stories, where they are usually criticizing themselves. And they might, just know your name and profession.


    their peculiar
     
    Well if your mouth was experiencing the regional cold, you can soon be talking peculiar also.

    Regarding the Japanese

     

    They mix being friendly as Latinos or Irish, while being introverted as Northern Europeans. (i.e. this introverted/agreeable combination)

    Russians and Japanese perhaps have in common the fact that they sometimes disregard rational thinking and would seek intuitive insight,

     

    German writers say the same about themselves. But Russian mentality is mainly rational like Northern European. But you can be planting the seeds, ploughing, but the harvest is stolen. While actually lazy romantic nationalities like Irish, are living in an organized society, with more rational political decisions.

    Replies: @Yevardian

  827. @AP
    @Yevardian


    The more recent ‘The Return’ by Zvyagintsev is another great film about childhood by Zvyagintsev, before he just started entering the territory of misery-porn (and inadvertently delighting critics of Russia, though I don’t think that’s his intention) with ‘Leviathan’.
     
    His misery-porn movies such as Leviathan and Elena weren't bad either, though Loveless was too much IMO.

    I read somewhere that the recently popular Korean film Parasite was supposedly based on Elena.

    Replies: @Ivashka the fool

    Korean film Parasite was supposedly based on Elena.

    Although Elena was good, Parasite was much better and much wider in its reflection about the nature of social conventions and (negative) social class interactions. And Parasite was funny, which Elena wasn’t. I don’t think both movies have much in common. The Return was Zvyagintsev’s best movie un my opinion.

    • Replies: @Ivashka the fool
    @Ivashka the fool

    https://www.rbth.com/arts/331672-oscar-parasite-russian-films

    I will have to watch some of these movies.

    BTW, there are many good Russian short films on YouTube. Sadly most of them are not translated.

    , @Yevardian
    @Ivashka the fool

    Curious if Parasite was indeed based on Elena. I personally don't think that had much in common. I thought Elena's main theme was the moral degradation of (Russian) society generally, whilst the tone of 'Parasite' was quite hopeful, and although there was some good black humour, it quickly became on-the-nose in how cheap and obvious it was. 'Many rich people are idiots' has never been an incisive observation.

    I'd agree that 'The Return' remains Zvyagintsev's best film.

    For what it's worth I definitely preferred 'Elena', 'Parasite' had far too many character/plot elements that were just totally unbelievable for me and spoiled my enjoyment of the film. Like in 'Parasite', it becomes clear very early on that the main family characters are all very intelligent and driven, so it made absolutely no sense they'd be living in a hovel, folding pizza boxes for a living (implied to be for years), and then only suddenly cook up a series of clever machiavellian schemes given the first opportunity.

    I thought Burning was a far better Korean film about class that came out the year before (2018). Actually, all of Lee Chang-Dong's films have been brilliant, Peppermint Candy (1999) is a masterpiece, still the best movie I've seen come out of Korea in general.

    Replies: @Greasy William

  828. @Sher Singh
    @Yevardian


    Sher Singh spamming his Indo-Aryan schtick
     
    If you're going to hate non-Christian religion then do it openly.
    Don't accuse me of being ethno-centric when I'm the least of the lot.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11689339/Indian-brawl-erupts-Melbournes-Fed-Square-Sikh-attacking-Hindu-nationalists.html


    Being a non-superstitious scientist, I don’t think duels solve anything. Depending on who is more ruthless and a better shot, the person who is right or the one who is wrong can be killed. The truth can be established by a duel no more than it can be established by voting.
     
    In contests of strength, "truth" is the refuge of the weak.

    Replies: @Mikel, @Emil Nikola Richard

    In contests of strength, “truth” is the refuge of the weak.

    The thing about the duel in War and Peace is the bumbling fool Pierre won it with a lucky shot. That happens with pistol duels.

    Have you ever seen any of those fencer youtubes where the fencing teacher analyzes the swordplay in movies?

    I always thought this one was the most fun:

    • Replies: @songbird
    @Emil Nikola Richard


    Have you ever seen any of those fencer youtubes where the fencing teacher analyzes the swordplay in movies?
     
    Didn't realize that you could grab the blade of a sword with your naked hand and that was a real thing that happened in historical duels, until I saw one of those.

    Speaking of duels, Daniel O'Connell wore a black glove on one hand, for the rest of his life, after he killed a man in one with a pistol.
    , @Sher Singh
    @Emil Nikola Richard

    No, and don't know much about dueling.
    Sikhs would either use a Talwar or fight with Karas.

    @yahya you've never spent any time around blacks.
    I guarantee you'd agree with songbird.

    @aaronb Guru Nanak Dev Ji himself carried weapons. That's why this is a funny litmus test of your sanity.

  829. @Emil Nikola Richard
    @Sher Singh


    In contests of strength, “truth” is the refuge of the weak.
     
    The thing about the duel in War and Peace is the bumbling fool Pierre won it with a lucky shot. That happens with pistol duels.

    Have you ever seen any of those fencer youtubes where the fencing teacher analyzes the swordplay in movies?

    I always thought this one was the most fun:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yzYEYyOsQtA&ab_channel=RottenTomatoesClassicTrailers

    Replies: @songbird, @Sher Singh

    Have you ever seen any of those fencer youtubes where the fencing teacher analyzes the swordplay in movies?

    Didn’t realize that you could grab the blade of a sword with your naked hand and that was a real thing that happened in historical duels, until I saw one of those.

    Speaking of duels, Daniel O’Connell wore a black glove on one hand, for the rest of his life, after he killed a man in one with a pistol.

  830. @Ivashka the fool
    @AP


    Korean film Parasite was supposedly based on Elena.
     
    Although Elena was good, Parasite was much better and much wider in its reflection about the nature of social conventions and (negative) social class interactions. And Parasite was funny, which Elena wasn't. I don't think both movies have much in common. The Return was Zvyagintsev's best movie un my opinion.

    Replies: @Ivashka the fool, @Yevardian

    https://www.rbth.com/arts/331672-oscar-parasite-russian-films

    I will have to watch some of these movies.

    BTW, there are many good Russian short films on YouTube. Sadly most of them are not translated.

  831. @Mikel
    @LatW


    everyone knows that in case of Russia’s takeover of Ukraine (no matter how unrealistic it may seem now), the next targets would be Moldova and Georgia.
     
    Do Russian nationalists have designs on the whole of Georgia? My understanding of that region is that the Russians have already carved out the parts of Georgia inhabited by pro-Russian majorities with only formal annexation pending.

    I have certainly read Russians threatening to march on Warsaw or Berlin but I always interpreted that kind of threats as a reaction to the perceived animosity of the Poles and the Germans rather than to any expansionist wishes to non-Russian lands. In any case, now that they've discovered that their army is unable to even take Avdiivka, I doubt they'll have much appetite left for faraway lands when the war in Ukraine is over.

    Replies: @Ivashka the fool, @LatW

    I have certainly read Russians threatening to march on Warsaw or Berlin

    Do you know the phrase “We can repeat it” (Можем повторить)? It’s their favorite phrase to throw around. As if there are no others out there who can also repeat things they’ve done.

    What they say is not that relevant, a lot of it is just gopnik talk*. I wasn’t talking about what would happen now, but what could’ve happened, hypothetically, if they had managed to, let’s say, take a few large cities, consolidate the gains and then wait, I don’t know, 5-10 years or so. What they say is hardly relevant, they will do what they can do. Or not.

    *Btw, Boris Johnson said that Putin told him shortly before the invasion: “‘Boris, I don’t want to hurt you but, with a missile, it would only take a minute’”. LOL As in, it will be so quick, you won’t even feel it.

    • Replies: @Ivashka the fool
    @LatW


    Do you know the phrase “We can repeat it” (Можем повторить)? It’s their favorite phrase to throw around. As if there are no others out there who can also repeat things they’ve done.
     
    Only idiots repeat their mistakes twice. And I tell you that as a Fool !

    You have of course understood the sexual/Freudian undertones of the "We can repeat it !" slogan ? That's RusFed "patriotism" in a nutshell: in a country colonized by the Noviop, where most ethnic Russians are seen as worthy less than most Vainakhs or Dags, to walk around pretending that one is a mighty conqueror waiting to take turns in the "rape of Berlin".

    Compensation much.

    Yes that's gopnik's talk, not even vor's talk but the talk of some shpana near the "parasha". Nothing serious really.

    And speaking of nothing serious, I don't believe Boris Johnson when he says that Pynya has threatened him. Pynya is too cowardly for that, while BoJo is even more of a clown than Zelensky is.

    https://ic.pics.livejournal.com/matveychev_oleg/27303223/31052882/31052882_original.jpg

    I guess you recognize the pair in the middle. They look sweet. Supposedly the picture has been taken in New York on the Gay Pride parade in 1999, although I am of course not certain of this at all.

    🙂

    Replies: @LatW, @Mr. Hack, @Dmitry

  832. @AnonfromTN
    @AP


    The Ukrainian people did not want to surrender their independence, so they chose to fight.
     
    If the Ukrainian people “chose to fight”, why did the regime have to resort to forced mobilization, catching males in the streets, shops, churches, and even at the funeral procession of one already mobilized and sent straight to Bandera by the Russian army? Why are “mobilized” sent to the army training camps w/o letting them even to visit their homes? Why do Ukrainian males dress in women’s clothes to go shopping for groceries if they “chose to fight”? Looks like those who “chose to fight” and their conscription-age children actually do not fight. The regime forcibly mobilizes those who did not make this choice and sends them to their death.

    Replies: @Mikel, @AP, @Beckow, @Wokechoke

    At the outbreak of ww1 something like 1,000,000 men in the UK genuinely volunteered to join up.

  833. @AnonfromTN
    @HeavilyMarbledSteak


    I’m also a fan of the Bahai faith. I like their saying that every religion deserved to be the world religion had it remained true to it’s principles.
     
    As late Douglas Adams (of “Hitchhikers guide to the galaxy” fame) said, every religion will tell you that murder is sin and will kill you to prove its point. In contrast to Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, and even Buddhism, Bahai faith is not guilty of mass murder. It deserves a lot of respect for that.

    They seem to believe that religions arise but then get corrupted
     
    That’s certainly true. Human institutions get corrupted easily. Therefore, if there were some kind of God, s/he would have considered his/her Church the worst enemy deserving the most severe punishment.

    Replies: @Another Polish Perspective, @HeavilyMarbledSteak

    That’s certainly true. Human institutions get corrupted easily. Therefore, if there were some kind of God, s/he would have considered his/her Church the worst enemy deserving the most severe punishment.

    Well, yes, and Jewish sacred history is a tale of repeated and continuous corruption and backsliding, leading to God’s repeated wrath and turning away from his people.

    It’s almost as if the OT is meant to reinforce the point that mainstream institutions always get corrupted. And this goes on till the very end of the book – it’s not a story of progress until “finally” society is good. The OT is not Whig history. Rather, only the Messiah will usher in the eschaton.

    Yet like AP, my Jewish friends tell me that contemporary mainstream Jewish society is perfect and beyond reproach 🙂 Such is human nature.

    (I do not spare my Jewish friends my “heretic approach” either).

    However, I’d qualify the idea that God’s church is his worst enemy – even though the Church existed in a way that was utterly opposed to God’s will as revealed by Jesus, there was always the tiniest “spark” of genuine teaching preserved throughout the ages. And that’s not nothing – so it wasn’t an unmitigated disaster, but clearly the historical Church, and the contemporary one, are things that need to be got beyond.

    • Replies: @HeavilyMarbledSteak
    @HeavilyMarbledSteak

    Actually, Buddhism also explicitly says that the faith will deteriorate every 500 years, to the point when there will barely be anyone left who can understand the message, whereupon a new Buddha will arise.

    So this awareness that religious institutions inevitably decay and lose their moral force seems to be widespread.

  834. @Another Polish Perspective
    @Mr. Hack

    Matthew 24 is "The Little Apocalypse", or apocalypse inside gospels. It speaks about The End Times, so you must first determine whether The End Times are at hand to really treat it as a description of here and now. This in itself is eminently arduous task, especially as Christianity seems to be structured around expectations of the End, which already was to happen several times, around:
    1) 400 CE - The Fall of Rome as TEOTWAWKI, Arian Goths persecuting Nicaean Christians
    2) 1000-1300 Millenarism, Joachim da Fiore and Crusades (at least on the Catholic side of Christianity), Christians persecuting Christians - 4th crusade, the Great Schism
    3) 1600+ Luther as Antichrist, Protestantism and 30-Years War: certainly Christians persecuted Christians in the name of Christ
    4) 1917-1945 Communism & Nazism, David Star in Ghettos as Beast Mark
    5) Now? Well, the relative lack of religiosity, lack of any serious heresies and schisms would speak against it ("For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ.") But still there are some other disturbing signs, like "wars, rumours of wars", monkeypox etc.

    The task is arduous as per words of apocalypses people will not have much agency during the End Times: "power over Earth will be given to the Beast", "many will be deceived" etc - or maybe it is just us having a problem with God's omniscience... as we certainly do, being 4 times mistaken already

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    Trying to place a precise date on the end times or the apocalypse as it’s often referred to is a fruitless occupation, IMHO.

    Jesus answered: ‘Watch out that no one deceives you. For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many. You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. All these are the beginning of birth pains’” (Matthew 24:4-8).

    Certainly it sounds like it could come very soon. The last time that there was a great commotion surrounding these events was in 2012. Movies, books, TV religious programing were all pointing to the beginning of the end times. Well, it’s 2023 and we’re all still here. This is a good wikipedia entry that reviews all of these events leading up to the 2012 end times cycle:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_phenomenon#:~:text=The%20idea%20that%20the%20year,the%20Internet%2C%20particularly%20on%20YouTube.

  835. @Ivashka the fool
    @songbird

    Russians are only introverted when they don't know other people in the group. And you are right that there is a great deal of regional variation in Russian population.

    Southern Russians are basically identical to the Eastern Ukrainians in their attitudes, while North-Western Russians are mentally closer to their Fenno-Scandian neighbors. IRC Dima is from Ye-burg (pun intended), the largest city in the Urals, a region which is in a category of its own. Ural people are known for their peculiar pronunciation of Russian language (that seems becoming somewhat fashionable lately) and being somewhat of a rude character, at least compared to the Moscovites and the Pitertsy. Perhaps people are more introverted in the Urals ? Can't say, I have never been there.

    Regarding the Japanese culture, although I don't know much about it, I believe it is strongly influenced by the clan and caste system where everyone has an assigned role to follow, and also Zen Buddhism where somewhat of an inward looking attitude is sometimes seen as preferable. Although Japanese can be quite eccentric too, I am thinking of Ikkyu Sojun here (Altan wouldn't be happy about me mentioning him) or Mishima.

    Both Russians and Japanese perhaps have in common the fact that they sometimes disregard rational thinking and would seek intuitive insight, something that Westerners mostly avoid.

    Replies: @AP, @Dmitry

    Ural people are known for their peculiar pronunciation of Russian language (that seems becoming somewhat fashionable lately

    The Urals accent sounds kind of clipped or abrupt, less melodic. It actually reminds me a bit of Ukrainian spoken in Lviv versus in central Ukraine (I‘ve visited the southern Urals a couple of times, never been to Yekaterinburg).

    • Agree: Ivashka the fool
  836. @Ivashka the fool
    @Yahya


    Well “Eurotrash” is defined by wiki as “a term for certain Europeans, particularly those perceived to be socialites, stylish and affluent.”

     

    Nah, back in the day of Love Parades and Ibiza's MDMA fueled parties, Eurotrash was the slang for the young feckless Euros drifting on petty jobs between Berlin, London and Amsterdam. That's what Irvine Welsh wrote about in his Acid House novels and he knew the scene quite well.

    https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/38732506-eurotrash

    BTW if you didn't watch Acid House the movie, based on Welsh's book then I recommend it for its savage and grotesque humor.

    https://m.media-amazon.com/images/M/MV5BMTIzNTI2NDY5OF5BMl5BanBnXkFtZTYwNDExMjg4._V1_.jpg

    (Nevermind the Rotten Tomatoes and IMDB ratings, most Americans film aficionados lack the background to appreciate the subtle philosophy of this movie).

    What your Wiki article describes is more around the lines of clochard chic, poorgeois - le sale est le nouveau cool, that I am witnessing with some dismay in my own grown kids ans their friends.

    https://www.marieclaire.fr/le-sale-est-il-le-nouveau-cool,1298568.asp

    Well, at least they're not Skinheads...

    😉

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @Mr. Hack

    In addition to your comments dealing with historical/religious subjects, I’ve always enjoyed your comments dealing with topics exposing modern culture, trends, music, art and of course some of your more colorful conspiracy theories. Hopefully, this comment will initiate a new era of Ivashkaite esoterica? 🙂

    Old Mr. Hack looking for culture in all the wrong places, locked up in his underground bomb shelter in the sonoran desert. 🙂

    • LOL: Mr. Hack
    • Replies: @Ivashka the fool
    @Mr. Hack

    Mr Hack, you look absolutely wonderful on this picture!

    Многая лета дорогой !

    🙂

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

  837. @HeavilyMarbledSteak
    @AnonfromTN


    That’s certainly true. Human institutions get corrupted easily. Therefore, if there were some kind of God, s/he would have considered his/her Church the worst enemy deserving the most severe punishment.
     
    Well, yes, and Jewish sacred history is a tale of repeated and continuous corruption and backsliding, leading to God's repeated wrath and turning away from his people.

    It's almost as if the OT is meant to reinforce the point that mainstream institutions always get corrupted. And this goes on till the very end of the book - it's not a story of progress until "finally" society is good. The OT is not Whig history. Rather, only the Messiah will usher in the eschaton.

    Yet like AP, my Jewish friends tell me that contemporary mainstream Jewish society is perfect and beyond reproach :) Such is human nature.

    (I do not spare my Jewish friends my "heretic approach" either).

    However, I'd qualify the idea that God's church is his worst enemy - even though the Church existed in a way that was utterly opposed to God's will as revealed by Jesus, there was always the tiniest "spark" of genuine teaching preserved throughout the ages. And that's not nothing - so it wasn't an unmitigated disaster, but clearly the historical Church, and the contemporary one, are things that need to be got beyond.

    Replies: @HeavilyMarbledSteak

    Actually, Buddhism also explicitly says that the faith will deteriorate every 500 years, to the point when there will barely be anyone left who can understand the message, whereupon a new Buddha will arise.

    So this awareness that religious institutions inevitably decay and lose their moral force seems to be widespread.

  838. @Ivashka the fool
    @Yahya


    Well “Eurotrash” is defined by wiki as “a term for certain Europeans, particularly those perceived to be socialites, stylish and affluent.”

     

    Nah, back in the day of Love Parades and Ibiza's MDMA fueled parties, Eurotrash was the slang for the young feckless Euros drifting on petty jobs between Berlin, London and Amsterdam. That's what Irvine Welsh wrote about in his Acid House novels and he knew the scene quite well.

    https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/38732506-eurotrash

    BTW if you didn't watch Acid House the movie, based on Welsh's book then I recommend it for its savage and grotesque humor.

    https://m.media-amazon.com/images/M/MV5BMTIzNTI2NDY5OF5BMl5BanBnXkFtZTYwNDExMjg4._V1_.jpg

    (Nevermind the Rotten Tomatoes and IMDB ratings, most Americans film aficionados lack the background to appreciate the subtle philosophy of this movie).

    What your Wiki article describes is more around the lines of clochard chic, poorgeois - le sale est le nouveau cool, that I am witnessing with some dismay in my own grown kids ans their friends.

    https://www.marieclaire.fr/le-sale-est-il-le-nouveau-cool,1298568.asp

    Well, at least they're not Skinheads...

    😉

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @Mr. Hack

    “Well, at least they’re not skinheads”


    Thoughts of the dutiful, experienced father shielding his offspring from any possible youthful indiscretions that could possibly come back to haunt them in the future. 🙂

    • Agree: Ivashka the fool
  839. @AP
    @HeavilyMarbledSteak


    You may condemn me for defying the Christian consensus, for instance, because you think it’s perfect
     
    I never claimed it's perfect.

    But it's the best we've got, so the task is to guard it, improve it, fix imperfections (this process will never be completed by humans) rather than to overthrow it, undermine it, defy it or destroy it.

    I dared to think I “knew” better than practicing Jews, Christians, Sikhs
     
    Indeed, in your arrogance you claim to know better about Christianity than a Christian, to understand Buddhism better than do practicing Buddhists, to understand Judaism better than do Orthodox devout Jews, you even to teach about Sikhism to a Sikh.

    You were elevating Establishment social consensus over personal judgment as a general principle, as can be seen by you including non-Christian social consensus.
     
    It's a general principal that a dilettante such as you won't understand a faith better than one who grew up in it and practices it, whatever that faith may be. If you had some humility you would recognize that.

    But first, make clear that you’re not making a general principle that automatically an Establishment should not be defied
     
    I've been pretty clear. Maybe you should listen more, rather than project your own problems onto the world?

    I have repeated probably dozens of times that it was right for Christians to overthrow the evil pre-Christian order and for Christians to overthrow other evil orders where they found them (i.e., that of the demon-worshipping Meso-Americans). I have also been clear that because the Christian order is good it ought to be defended against overthrow - strengthened, protected.

    The general principle of rebellion-for-rebellion's sake is yours. And then you falsely accuse me of the opposite - authority-for-authority's sake. I am not backwards looking-glass version of you.

    In reality, AP, you are an authoritarian
     
    You are as clueless about me as you are about everything else. Perhaps the funniest was when you accused me of being some sort of workaholic.

    Reality is not something you are capable of grasping.

    But a pattern is emerging here:

    You seem to support rebellion-for-rebellion's sake as a general principle, and falsely accuse me of the opposite, authority for the sake of authority.

    You are a lazy parasite, and falsely accuse me of the opposite (some sort of intensely ambitious workaholic).

    You can't resolve opposites within yourself as a normal functioning adult does, so you project them outward, take extreme one--sided positions, etc. Most people get over that by the age of eighteen.

    You’d like to make a general principle of submission to authority
     
    Nonsense. The one making general principles in terms of relationships towards authority is you.

    Replies: @Ivashka the fool, @HeavilyMarbledSteak

    Indeed, in your arrogance you claim to know better about Christianity than a Christian, to understand Buddhism better than do practicing Buddhists, to understand Judaism better than do Orthodox devout Jews, you even to teach about Sikhism to a Sikh

    Ok, but if Christians didn’t arrogantly question Judaism, they wouldn’t exist, if Buddhists didn’t arrogantly question Hinduism then it wouldn’t exist, if Judaism didn’t arrogantly question Near East idol worship, it wouldn’t exist, if Sikhism didn’t question Hinduism, it wouldn’t exist.

    So all those things I am arrogantly questioning themselves arose out of arrogantly questioning earlier things 🙂

    The truth is, one needs arrogance just as much as one needs humility – indeed, when all of society says you should be egotistical, going against this and trying to be humble is itself a supreme form of arrogance. But the right kind.

    If a Jew, a Christian, a Sikh, a Buddhist say something that plainly contradict reason and their own texts and greatest sages and teachers, I will have the arrogance to point this out, out of an abundance of humility 🙂

    Indeed, isn’t it more humble to submit to the texts and sages rather than contemporary society 🙂 Who is being arrogant here exactly lol.

    Its been said of Zen that it consists in being superior by realizing that everyone is absolutely equal ultimately.

    But I’m glad you’re conceding a bit on work and realizing it is not the be all and end all of life. This is good.

    • Replies: @Ivashka the fool
    @HeavilyMarbledSteak


    Its been said of Zen that it consists in being superior by realizing that everyone is absolutely equal ultimately.
     
    Aaron, for Ryokan Taigu's sake, please stop !

    Zen is not about being superior, inferior or equal.

    Zen is only about the sound of one hand clapping !

    What is the meaning of Daruma's coming from the Western lands ?

    😉

    Replies: @HeavilyMarbledSteak, @Yevardian

    , @AP
    @HeavilyMarbledSteak


    Ok, but if Christians didn’t arrogantly question Judaism, they wouldn’t exist… So all those things I am arrogantly questioning themselves arose out of arrogantly questioning earlier things
     
    Thanks for admitting that all along your goal is to displace and replace Christianity, as Christianity did to traditional Judaism.

    So you are an enemy of Christianity.

    Just so we know where you stand.

    But I’m glad you’re conceding a bit on work and realizing it is not
     
    Translation:

    You invent fiction about me being some sort of workaholic, then when I correct your weird fantasy, you falsely claim that I conceded something.

    Replies: @HeavilyMarbledSteak, @Barbarossa

  840. @LatW
    @Mikel


    I have certainly read Russians threatening to march on Warsaw or Berlin
     
    Do you know the phrase "We can repeat it" (Можем повторить)? It's their favorite phrase to throw around. As if there are no others out there who can also repeat things they've done.

    What they say is not that relevant, a lot of it is just gopnik talk*. I wasn't talking about what would happen now, but what could've happened, hypothetically, if they had managed to, let's say, take a few large cities, consolidate the gains and then wait, I don't know, 5-10 years or so. What they say is hardly relevant, they will do what they can do. Or not.

    *Btw, Boris Johnson said that Putin told him shortly before the invasion: "'Boris, I don't want to hurt you but, with a missile, it would only take a minute'". LOL As in, it will be so quick, you won't even feel it.

    Replies: @Ivashka the fool

    Do you know the phrase “We can repeat it” (Можем повторить)? It’s their favorite phrase to throw around. As if there are no others out there who can also repeat things they’ve done.

    Only idiots repeat their mistakes twice. And I tell you that as a Fool !

    You have of course understood the sexual/Freudian undertones of the “We can repeat it !” slogan ? That’s RusFed “patriotism” in a nutshell: in a country colonized by the Noviop, where most ethnic Russians are seen as worthy less than most Vainakhs or Dags, to walk around pretending that one is a mighty conqueror waiting to take turns in the “rape of Berlin”.

    Compensation much.

    Yes that’s gopnik’s talk, not even vor’s talk but the talk of some shpana near the “parasha”. Nothing serious really.

    And speaking of nothing serious, I don’t believe Boris Johnson when he says that Pynya has threatened him. Pynya is too cowardly for that, while BoJo is even more of a clown than Zelensky is.

    I guess you recognize the pair in the middle. They look sweet. Supposedly the picture has been taken in New York on the Gay Pride parade in 1999, although I am of course not certain of this at all.

    🙂

    • Replies: @LatW
    @Ivashka the fool


    Only idiots repeat their mistakes twice.
     
    Yea, I always wonder which part it is that they want to repeat. The 20M dead?

    That’s RusFed “patriotism” in a nutshell: in a country colonized by the Noviop, where most ethnic Russians are seen as worthy less than most Vainakhs or Dags, to walk around pretending that one is a mighty conqueror waiting to take turns in the “rape of Berlin”.
     
    Of course, it's mostly meant for internal consumption. It might be like a mantra that's meant to hold things together in people's consciousnesses (in that sense it's a skrepa). But, yea, funny. In the West they don't know about this saying. Probably not even in Germany.

    Yes that’s gopnik’s talk, not even vor’s talk but the talk of some shpana near the “parasha”. Nothing serious really.
     
    "Piterskaya shpana." I like gopnik / prison talk though (from what little I know), it's what they call "based".

    You don't believe Pynya said it to Boris? Has Boris ever lied? Yea, it does seem very direct. But I do believe it. Piterskaya shpana, after all.

    As to that pride photo, I suspect it's a fake. 1999 is a long time ago, Arestovych is 47 now, so in 1999 he would've been 24. In that photo he looks about 30, not in his early 20s. I'd say it's a fake, but who knows. Usually, one can tell from the hands (movement of wrists, fingers). He is not the most rugged type, that's for sure.

    By the way, that song video you posted, you can see the monument to Tsoi in it, from the place of his death. Sad.

    Replies: @LatW, @Ivashka the fool

    , @Mr. Hack
    @Ivashka the fool

    The resemblance is striking, but not conclusive. Who's the blonde on the left? Any chance that the photo was stitched together (photo shop) using current technologies? I've seen some very realistic results...

    Are there any other indications that Zelensky was even in New York in 1999?

    Replies: @Ivashka the fool

    , @Dmitry
    @Ivashka the fool


    Russians are seen as worthy less

     

    This is not accurate, nobody is less worthy. In the 21st century's feudal-capitalism, young people from every nationality is equally worthy, for example, to thank their masters for an opportunity to work, in the warehouse, that imports Chinese products for the now more captive (removal of foreign competition, exit of IKEA etc) local market. No nationality is above another for this opportunity to work for $1,80 per hour.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8gH8IDKwO4

  841. @HeavilyMarbledSteak
    @AP


    Indeed, in your arrogance you claim to know better about Christianity than a Christian, to understand Buddhism better than do practicing Buddhists, to understand Judaism better than do Orthodox devout Jews, you even to teach about Sikhism to a Sikh
     
    Ok, but if Christians didn't arrogantly question Judaism, they wouldn't exist, if Buddhists didn't arrogantly question Hinduism then it wouldn't exist, if Judaism didn't arrogantly question Near East idol worship, it wouldn't exist, if Sikhism didn't question Hinduism, it wouldn't exist.

    So all those things I am arrogantly questioning themselves arose out of arrogantly questioning earlier things :)

    The truth is, one needs arrogance just as much as one needs humility - indeed, when all of society says you should be egotistical, going against this and trying to be humble is itself a supreme form of arrogance. But the right kind.

    If a Jew, a Christian, a Sikh, a Buddhist say something that plainly contradict reason and their own texts and greatest sages and teachers, I will have the arrogance to point this out, out of an abundance of humility :)

    Indeed, isn't it more humble to submit to the texts and sages rather than contemporary society :) Who is being arrogant here exactly lol.

    Its been said of Zen that it consists in being superior by realizing that everyone is absolutely equal ultimately.

    But I'm glad you're conceding a bit on work and realizing it is not the be all and end all of life. This is good.

    Replies: @Ivashka the fool, @AP

    Its been said of Zen that it consists in being superior by realizing that everyone is absolutely equal ultimately.

    Aaron, for Ryokan Taigu’s sake, please stop !

    Zen is not about being superior, inferior or equal.

    Zen is only about the sound of one hand clapping !

    What is the meaning of Daruma’s coming from the Western lands ?

    😉

    • Replies: @HeavilyMarbledSteak
    @Ivashka the fool

    Ok, ok, Zen is not about being superior, inferior, or equal - but then it is about not being superior, right :)

    But when all of society tells you life is about being superior, it takes a lot of arrogance to say it isn't about being superior.

    You are arrogant scum, Bashi :)

    Replies: @HeavilyMarbledSteak

    , @Yevardian
    @Ivashka the fool

    Buddhism is the ultimate religion of resigned cowardice. I think even the Sikh could agree it even trumps his opinion of Christianity in that respect.

    Not to mention, whatever you think of it, it's undeniable that Christianity completely altered European society in a fundamental fashion. Conversely Buddhism's origins as a reaction against the Hindu caste system came very soon as an utter failure.
    Nearly everywhere else where Buddhism was adopted it was basically reduced to primitive idol-worship.

  842. @Mr. Hack
    @Ivashka the fool

    In addition to your comments dealing with historical/religious subjects, I've always enjoyed your comments dealing with topics exposing modern culture, trends, music, art and of course some of your more colorful conspiracy theories. Hopefully, this comment will initiate a new era of Ivashkaite esoterica? :-)
    http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-fJAMwHDDJOo/VD52jzXtHTI/AAAAAAAABXg/rIFQ3RZp3SM/s1600/the%2Bgrand%2Bwazoo%2Bback.jpg
    Old Mr. Hack looking for culture in all the wrong places, locked up in his underground bomb shelter in the sonoran desert. :-)

    Replies: @Ivashka the fool

    Mr Hack, you look absolutely wonderful on this picture!

    Многая лета дорогой !

    🙂

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @Ivashka the fool

    Your words are too kind! The photo was snapped just prior to my visit to the Baha'i peoples large get together in Scottsdale, AZ. Do you think that perhaps I overdressed a bit for the event? Did you notice the large saguaro tree in the right hand corner? I think that both you and AaronB would have liked the concert featuring Strunz and Farah. :-)

    https://youtu.be/okNlpu0Depo

  843. @Ivashka the fool
    @HeavilyMarbledSteak


    Its been said of Zen that it consists in being superior by realizing that everyone is absolutely equal ultimately.
     
    Aaron, for Ryokan Taigu's sake, please stop !

    Zen is not about being superior, inferior or equal.

    Zen is only about the sound of one hand clapping !

    What is the meaning of Daruma's coming from the Western lands ?

    😉

    Replies: @HeavilyMarbledSteak, @Yevardian

    Ok, ok, Zen is not about being superior, inferior, or equal – but then it is about not being superior, right 🙂

    But when all of society tells you life is about being superior, it takes a lot of arrogance to say it isn’t about being superior.

    You are arrogant scum, Bashi 🙂

    • Agree: Ivashka the fool
    • Replies: @HeavilyMarbledSteak
    @HeavilyMarbledSteak

    Or put better, Zen isn't about not being superior, as that's still an affirmation, but it's simply not about being superior.

    But to not be about being superior, is a radical individualistic act in our society - yet simultaneously, it denies the basis of individualistic selfishness :)

    Likewise, to claim that one should not make positive statements, is in itself a positive statement - to claim one is beyond words, is to not yet be beyond words.

    That is why the classic Zen text is called the Gateless Gate. Non-dualism means not setting up an either/or dichotomy.

    Replies: @Ivashka the fool

  844. Perhaps, the environmentalists were right when they protested against a nuclear navy:

    [MORE]

  845. @HeavilyMarbledSteak
    @Ivashka the fool

    Ok, ok, Zen is not about being superior, inferior, or equal - but then it is about not being superior, right :)

    But when all of society tells you life is about being superior, it takes a lot of arrogance to say it isn't about being superior.

    You are arrogant scum, Bashi :)

    Replies: @HeavilyMarbledSteak

    Or put better, Zen isn’t about not being superior, as that’s still an affirmation, but it’s simply not about being superior.

    But to not be about being superior, is a radical individualistic act in our society – yet simultaneously, it denies the basis of individualistic selfishness 🙂

    Likewise, to claim that one should not make positive statements, is in itself a positive statement – to claim one is beyond words, is to not yet be beyond words.

    That is why the classic Zen text is called the Gateless Gate. Non-dualism means not setting up an either/or dichotomy.

    • Replies: @Ivashka the fool
    @HeavilyMarbledSteak


    That is why the classic Zen text is called the Gateless Gate.
     
    There's no gate, there never was a wall to have a gate built into it to begin with.

    Your monkey mind is climbing up the tree.

    Come down and calm down.

    🙂

    Replies: @HeavilyMarbledSteak

  846. @Ivashka the fool
    @LatW


    Do you know the phrase “We can repeat it” (Можем повторить)? It’s their favorite phrase to throw around. As if there are no others out there who can also repeat things they’ve done.
     
    Only idiots repeat their mistakes twice. And I tell you that as a Fool !

    You have of course understood the sexual/Freudian undertones of the "We can repeat it !" slogan ? That's RusFed "patriotism" in a nutshell: in a country colonized by the Noviop, where most ethnic Russians are seen as worthy less than most Vainakhs or Dags, to walk around pretending that one is a mighty conqueror waiting to take turns in the "rape of Berlin".

    Compensation much.

    Yes that's gopnik's talk, not even vor's talk but the talk of some shpana near the "parasha". Nothing serious really.

    And speaking of nothing serious, I don't believe Boris Johnson when he says that Pynya has threatened him. Pynya is too cowardly for that, while BoJo is even more of a clown than Zelensky is.

    https://ic.pics.livejournal.com/matveychev_oleg/27303223/31052882/31052882_original.jpg

    I guess you recognize the pair in the middle. They look sweet. Supposedly the picture has been taken in New York on the Gay Pride parade in 1999, although I am of course not certain of this at all.

    🙂

    Replies: @LatW, @Mr. Hack, @Dmitry

    Only idiots repeat their mistakes twice.

    Yea, I always wonder which part it is that they want to repeat. The 20M dead?

    That’s RusFed “patriotism” in a nutshell: in a country colonized by the Noviop, where most ethnic Russians are seen as worthy less than most Vainakhs or Dags, to walk around pretending that one is a mighty conqueror waiting to take turns in the “rape of Berlin”.

    Of course, it’s mostly meant for internal consumption. It might be like a mantra that’s meant to hold things together in people’s consciousnesses (in that sense it’s a skrepa). But, yea, funny. In the West they don’t know about this saying. Probably not even in Germany.

    Yes that’s gopnik’s talk, not even vor’s talk but the talk of some shpana near the “parasha”. Nothing serious really.

    Piterskaya shpana.” I like gopnik / prison talk though (from what little I know), it’s what they call “based”.

    You don’t believe Pynya said it to Boris? Has Boris ever lied? Yea, it does seem very direct. But I do believe it. Piterskaya shpana, after all.

    As to that pride photo, I suspect it’s a fake. 1999 is a long time ago, Arestovych is 47 now, so in 1999 he would’ve been 24. In that photo he looks about 30, not in his early 20s. I’d say it’s a fake, but who knows. Usually, one can tell from the hands (movement of wrists, fingers). He is not the most rugged type, that’s for sure.

    By the way, that song video you posted, you can see the monument to Tsoi in it, from the place of his death. Sad.

    • Replies: @LatW
    @LatW


    As to that pride photo, I suspect it’s a fake
     
    https://meta.mk/en/with-a-fake-photo-the-public-is-being-deceived-that-zelensky-participated-in-a-gay-parade/

    LOL. Oh geez... the Russkies don't like these two fellows, do they... Hilarious. More playful gopnik style "work".

    Replies: @Another Polish Perspective, @Another Polish Perspective

    , @Ivashka the fool
    @LatW

    I think the pic is from one of the plays of Kvartal 95 that they might have done together, both are actors after all. And of course given the "homocentric" focus that shpana used to have, where you had to always emphasize that you're as straight as a 2"×4" for fear of being put down and ending up a petukh, it inflames the imagination of that very types that "can repeat". Again, Freudian much. Anyways, stupid people are stupid (being a Fool, I am an expert in such matters). End of story.



    The word gopnik originates from Piter in the early twentieth century, and yes the local shpana was bad, especially the Ligovo neighborhood gangs where Pynya grew up. He is not lying about his tough upbringing. But one of the things I remember of my teenage interactions with these types, was that they preyed upon the weak. When they met with enough resistance, they're usually gave up. They were basically sociopathic bullies.

    My own Moscow neighborhood was quite bad, not as bad as Lyubertsy or Ligovo in Piter, but it was also infested with enough nasty shpana some of whom ended up street thugs and racketeers in the mafia later. They mostly finished their life very badly: alcoholic addiction, drugs, STDs, prison times and suicides. I am glad that even though I interacted with them quite often, I have never been too close to be involved in their petty crimes and incessant bullying of others. Of course my family was intellectuals, not proles, and I ended up leaving my neighborhood school to go to a school specialized in French closer to downtown Moscow, so that helped putting some distance between me and them.

    Yes, the video clip is by young Russians born and raised in Latvia. With a little luck once this all disgusting situation resolves itself, these young people will have a good and positive life. They look healthy and they still listen to Tsoï / Kino, good kids.

    https://youtu.be/wKxYPPXwZQQ

    When it was the first anniversary of his death, I went to Piter, joined my cousin there ans we visited his grave, then spent the evening and the night at the place where he worked as a fireman in an old building and that was called Kamchatka. There were people from all around the USSR, Baltic kids too and some Ukrainians I drank with. Victor was very respected and loved by many among us because his songs were about our life and we could easily self-identify with the lyrics.

    May he rest in peace.

    Replies: @AP, @LatW, @LatW

  847. @LatW
    @Ivashka the fool


    Only idiots repeat their mistakes twice.
     
    Yea, I always wonder which part it is that they want to repeat. The 20M dead?

    That’s RusFed “patriotism” in a nutshell: in a country colonized by the Noviop, where most ethnic Russians are seen as worthy less than most Vainakhs or Dags, to walk around pretending that one is a mighty conqueror waiting to take turns in the “rape of Berlin”.
     
    Of course, it's mostly meant for internal consumption. It might be like a mantra that's meant to hold things together in people's consciousnesses (in that sense it's a skrepa). But, yea, funny. In the West they don't know about this saying. Probably not even in Germany.

    Yes that’s gopnik’s talk, not even vor’s talk but the talk of some shpana near the “parasha”. Nothing serious really.
     
    "Piterskaya shpana." I like gopnik / prison talk though (from what little I know), it's what they call "based".

    You don't believe Pynya said it to Boris? Has Boris ever lied? Yea, it does seem very direct. But I do believe it. Piterskaya shpana, after all.

    As to that pride photo, I suspect it's a fake. 1999 is a long time ago, Arestovych is 47 now, so in 1999 he would've been 24. In that photo he looks about 30, not in his early 20s. I'd say it's a fake, but who knows. Usually, one can tell from the hands (movement of wrists, fingers). He is not the most rugged type, that's for sure.

    By the way, that song video you posted, you can see the monument to Tsoi in it, from the place of his death. Sad.

    Replies: @LatW, @Ivashka the fool

    As to that pride photo, I suspect it’s a fake

    https://meta.mk/en/with-a-fake-photo-the-public-is-being-deceived-that-zelensky-participated-in-a-gay-parade/

    LOL. Oh geez… the Russkies don’t like these two fellows, do they… Hilarious. More playful gopnik style “work”.

    • Replies: @Another Polish Perspective
    @LatW

    The photo airs some authenticity - it really looks like the old pre-digital photo, and when things are out of focus, they are out of focus together (like the leg and and the cigarette). It doesn't look doctored.

    Not sure why Zelenski shouldn't be gay - in the West, it could increase his popularity. As for Ukraine, well, I heard that it is more gay-tolerant than Russia anyway.

    In the old Poland homosexuality seems to have been pretty popular among Cossacks, at least when juxtaposed to Poles. Some even saw in their military organisation homosexuals traces, of Theban sacred legion composed of group of lovers, for this reason Cossacks calling themselves "mołojec" aka "a young dashing man" . I must say I wondered myself once why they spend so little time with women, despite the fact that war wasn't always rampant in Ukraine.

    Jędrzej Kitowicz, writing in the 18th century ("Opis obyczajów za panowania Augusta III"), acusses Cossacks of rampant homosexualism and zoofilia.

    ''Żon nie mieli ani kobiety żadnej między sobą nie cierpieli; a kiedy który został przekonany, że kędy za granicą miał sprawę z kobietą, tedy takowego do pala w kureniu, z którego był, za dekretem przywiązanego, póty tłukli polanami, to jest szczypami drew, póki go nie zabili, pokazując na pozór, jakoby czcili stan czystości; dla czego też nazywali się powszechnie mołojcami, to jest młodzieńcami, gdy w samej rzeczy prowadzili życie bestialskie, mażąc się jedni z drugimi grzechem sodomskim albo łącząc z bydlętami, na które sprośności, samej naturze obmierzłe, nie było żadnej kary, jakby uczynek z kobietą był plugawszy niż z kobyłą albo z krową.''


    It is the old Polish, so I can't translate this well but you do recognize words like "kureń","mołojec", "grzech sodomski - sin of Sodom", "bydlęta" - beasts, kobyła- mare, krowa - cow, "łącząc z bydlętami" - uniting with beasts.

    Zelenski should simply deny rumours, not just about this photo. But, well, he doesn't deny. Apparently, he does not want to.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @LatW, @Another Polish Perspective

    , @Another Polish Perspective
    @LatW

    At your link, it is the "non-Zelenski" photo that looks doctored as the heads are out of focus with background - unlike in the "Zelenski" photo.

  848. @Greasy William
    @Beckow


    That suggests that when things get really hot, it will be Washington that will step back. But maybe not.
     
    The RAND article indicates that the people behind the scenes in the US are looking to bail. We already know that Milley wants out.

    The problem is that there are domestic political considerations. Biden's base hates/fears Russia with a passion and Trump's approaching return to Facebook and Twitter will only increase white liberal existential angst. Biden really cannot go into the 2024 election having lost Ukraine to Russia.

    Replies: @Beckow

    Biden really cannot go into the 2024 election having lost Ukraine to Russia.

    What are the odds that Biden will actually run? In a well managed performance – and that’s what we have here, let’s enjoy it – you replace exhausted players. It is an effective method that countries like Russia or China have never mastered.

    You could be right because the anti-Russia mania has been built up on a very broad scale. It will be hard to call it back. That’s the dilemma: Nato provoked the war – the morons in Washington staring at maps after dinner – without thinking it through.

    It was a bluff, threat, game, even some ethnic revenge and an institutional need to do something. They ended up on a ledge with Russia having the upper hand. They are both holding nukes and it will be increasingly tempting. These are the fruits of lack of disciple, foresight, basic intelligence and some life experience.

    • Replies: @A123
    @Beckow



    Biden really cannot go into the 2024 election having lost Ukraine to Russia.
     
    What are the odds that Biden will actually run? In a well managed performance – and that’s what we have here, let’s enjoy it – you replace exhausted players. It is an effective method that countries like Russia or China have never mastered.
     
    The "Russia, Russia, Russia" myth has been dying a slow death for years. Add to that the impending investigation of Hunter Biden's corruption. The DNC will want to move on from the Ukraine fiasco. Sacrificing Not-The-President Biden is an easy choice.

    However, timing is a brutal problem. If they do it:

    • Too soon -- Not-The-VP Harris's is elevated. She becomes the de facto 2024 candidate. How can the DNC not nominate a black female office holder in their primaries?

    • Too late -- Not-The-President Biden's believes he will have a second term. Any plan requiring him to gracefully stand aside is heavily constrained by his arrogance and lack of lucidity. An arranged health scare during the primaries might work in terms of forcing a new candidate. Who would it be -- Kamala Harris? Pete Buttigieg? Stacy Abrams? Gavin Newsome? Beto??? All of their high visibility options are certain losers.

    The Democrats are in such disarray, Mike Pence should swap parties. His chances there are much better than the GOP. His disgraceful assault on the Constitution would be highly popular with DNC base voters. Yes. I am joking, but this could become a real thing.

    PEACE 😇

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @AnonfromTN

  849. @Yevardian
    @Beckow


    Nobody other than war nerds ever goes back and judges a war based on day-to-day minutia in the middle. That doesn’t matter – what matters is who will win. I still have not seen a rational description of how Russia will be defeated.
     
    I agree, but as Karlin has recently repeated ad nauseum, the outcome of the war won't be determined 'on the latest flyspeck village or depopulated rustbelt Donbass town', but how seriously Russia takes this war, and how willing Putin is to seriously shake up Russia's existing military structure in order to win.
    So far there have been minimal if any signs of this happening. The 'Kremlins' still don't seem to be fully aware they're now engaged in a war of attrition not just with Ukraine, but the entire Western World.
    I don't see Russia achieving any kind of strategic victory at this point unless it does absolutely drastic. Taking a few hundred sq.kilometres of deeply impoverished East-Ukrainian territory, recognised by absolutely no one who matters, whilst the US/Europe continues arming Ukraine's remainder to the teeth for the indefinite future, is hardly any 'victory' in my eyes.

    Now Russia is fucked, and so is Armenia for that matter.


    https://twitter.com/powerfultakes/status/1605653689171120143

    Replies: @AnonfromTN, @A123, @Beckow

    ….I don’t see Russia achieving any kind of strategic victory at this point unless it does absolutely drastic.

    How do you define a strategic victory? I won’t quibble about the value of Donbas or a few villages, you could be right although that could be said about almost any geography (Armenia’s Karabakh being a prime example :)…

    I keep repeating that the war is about keeping Nato and its weapons and bases out of Ukraine. There are other issues – local Russians, chernozem, Azov sea, Ukie-land as whole, perceptions etc… -but the core issue is will Nato have bases on Russia’s border in Ukraine. If Russia prevents it, they would have won. If not, they will lose.

    To many it seems that Nato in Ukieland is a marginal issue, even made up – and Western media space works overtime never to mention it or to pretend (=lie like AP here) that wasn’t the plan. Of course it was, Nato wasn’t in Ukraine for Zelko’s jokes or his wife’s pretty eyes, they knew what they were doing.

    If you and Karlin can convince us that Nato will be in Ukraine, with bases and missiles, maybe even a formal membership, then you will have something. That is the core of the matter. The secondary question is whether Russia has the will to fight to win the war – you are right, they have been reluctant mostly because they didn’t want to slaughter a lot of hapless Ukies. Everyone knows that they could – the way Nato bombed Serbia, Iraq…they could go medieval and prevail. The question is can they bring themselves to do it…

    (Djokovic just did an interview about how Nato brutally bombed Beograd when he was child, the squirming CNN assholes couldn’t wait to censor him – most viewers probably thought that “it was Russia that bombed Serbia!” – such is the incredible hypocrisy and stupidity in the West. So let the dice roll…)

    • Replies: @Emil Nikola Richard
    @Beckow


    (Djokovic just did an interview about how Nato brutally bombed Beograd when he was child, the squirming CNN assholes couldn’t wait to censor him – most viewers probably thought that “it was Russia that bombed Serbia!” – such is the incredible hypocrisy and stupidity in the West. So let the dice roll…)
     
    He just smacked down every opponent he in a big tournament in Melbourne where they wouldn't let him play last year because he refused to take the stupid experimental genetic medicine. Every television gasbag wants an interview now and there are dozens available.

    A link and time stamp would help!

    Battle of the nations
    Serbia Greece

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2Dtsx-6aDc&ab_channel=AustralianOpenTV
  850. @LatW
    @Beckow


    Russian reaction was kind of inevitable, what else they could have done?
     
    Beckow, your whole argument since day one has been that everyone, literally everyone in the region has to suck it up, except RusFed. What you don't realize is that a lot had been already tolerated to keep the peace, the West had already closed their eyes to many things. Russia simply went too far this time. It simply turned out that you can abuse and push the Chechen and Georgian around, but you can't do that to a Ukrainian. It's that simple (and everything that it entails). Russia simply should've adjusted her spectacles to realize that she is not the USSR and never will be.

    Of course, from Russia's POV Ukraine became "anti-Russia" (this is partly an issue of perception, for Russia anything that is not fully compliant to their worldview is either a Nazi or some "anti-Russia"). And such was not acceptable so they chose to use force. But with the use of force comes risk, even for someone who is supposedly strong. You never know how the chips will fall. Every time you cross that threshold, the rules change because "war is the father of all things", as Heraclitus said, and you cannot control everything at that point. Especially Fortuna.

    It could also be that Russia opened a real Pandora's box this time, if you see what is starting to happen around Iran. Iran may have made a fatal mistake as well, by providing the Russians with weapons to murder young Ukrainian girls in their beds. Did they really lack enemies that they had to make more? We'll see where that ends...


    what else they could have done?
     
    I already told you what they could have done - strengthen themselves from within. Place their missiles strategically (which they already did in many locations). Not waste resources by sending money out of the country. Reflect internally and understand that 1991 was final. That what they had before Feb 24 was already a lot and that to shepard that requires a lot of work. Not live in illusions about the past grandeur and especially not apply those illusions to today's capabilities (this was the fatal mistake). To understand that it is only possible to win the Ukrainian nationalism is by being "the bigger guy". And even then this nationalism would remain, but Russia would not care since Russia would have a more attractive version of existence.

    What has changed is that Nato will be not be in Ukraine ‘politically’ and will not build bases there or put missiles in Russia’s border 2-3 minutes from Moscow.

     

    I'm not sure it's 2-3 minutes but maybe 10-15. And those missiles are not even built yet. However, such missiles could serve as a deterrent and may actually be good and could have kept the war at bay, if Ukraine had them.

    Anyway, even without the NATO bases there, the relationship between RU and UA was totally screwed. As long as the relationship is in such a state, nothing really makes a difference. The way they talk about each other publicly now is much much worse than how we talk about the Russian in the privacy of our homes. You believe that Ukraine could've been pacified, but it's not that easy - this has been going on for hundreds of years. And now we have modern technology.


    Nato lost Ukraine and there is not much they can do about it.
     
    Does it matter? The West will help Ukraine long term. Even if the US departs at some point, others will help. Like in that Beatles song "I'll get by with a little help from my friends". :)

    Both Babis and Pavel were commies and not small ones – they are who they are because they were commies in the 80’s.
     
    I understand that part very well, trust me. We had such types too and it's exactly how you say - they got to be where they are because of who / what they were. Not just politics but even business.

    Decommunzation was never complete. You couldn't complete it a 100% because then there would be too many to discard.

    But time will heal everything - time is the great healer.


    The difference between their policies is non-existent – nothing will change, Czechs will continue sitting on the fence and occasionally throw rhetorical bombs, mostly at Russia because it is easier. Then they will have a beer and forget about it.

     

    It's alright. I don't have any major expectations. I just liked some of his more realistic statements and I like that someone with a military background became president. Of course, my favorite military type is a patriot from the national guard type of an organization, not a NATO bureaucrat, but it's alright. :)

    Replies: @Beckow

    …those missiles are not even built yet. However, such missiles could serve as a deterrent and may actually be good and could have kept the war at bay, if Ukraine had them.

    The word “yet” is the key to you argument and the major reason you and I disagree. Yes, a lot of things were ‘not yet’ and you base your rather idealistic expectations about Russia’s behavior on that. But we should agree that a major component of intelligence is the ability to anticipate…anticipation is a key to high IQ. Based on that, Russia simply correctly anticipated that if Kiev post-Maidan and Nato openly declared A, B, C, D…that eventually there will be also E, F, G…yes, not yet, but inevitably so. You can’t accept, as if you were caught in a pretense and hoped that Russia won’t see or won’t call you on it – well, they did and we have a war. But a quick look in the mirror would tell you why there is a war.

    Your more pompous argument that Russia has no extraterritorial rights, no right to security, no say in how its Russian ethnics are treated, no say in whether Georgia or Ukraine join an aggressive anti-Russia military pact…well, I am trying to be polite, but that is simply nonsense: non-actionable, out-of-context bulls..t that people caught doing bad stuff and lying about it always do. Please, drop it, it is embarrassing. Of course, Russia has and will have say in those matters – as will US or UK, France or China in their neighborhood.

    Let me remind you that your favorite alliance, the one you say should plop itself on Russia’s porch and Russia should shut up, bombed about half dozen countries, invaded, killed probably close to million civilians, lied about it, giggled about ‘collateral damage’, destroyed a major European city (Beograd). etc…your complete inability to even address that is puzzling and it makes what you argue feel like a junior-high shouting contest. Try to be more serious, we have AP for slogans and Mr. Hacks for feminine emotions, I expect more from you :)…

    …what they could have done – strengthen themselves from within. Place their missiles strategically (which they already did in many locations). Not waste resources by sending money out of the country. Reflect internally and understand that 1991 was final.

    Read what you said, it literally amounts to nothing. Money leaves Russia totally unrelated to this war, it always has. The resources have been finally restricted – we will see how that works out. And “place their missiles…“, what the hell is that supposed to mean? They already have them in place, you talk complete military nonsense…the point is that if someone (Nato) is about to place their missiles a few minutes from your capitol, you don’t sit there and say “well, we can also strike them”…did US sit back in Cuba crisis? could Russia place missiles in Ireland?

    And “strengthen within” ? Wow, you hide behind cliches. Why doesn’t Latvia or Ukraine, or even US and UK work on strengthening within instead of parading missiles on Russia’s borders? You seem to have a complete inability to see the others as having equal rights…in this case Russia. That usually translates as a sign of hatred, either acknowledged or hidden. And that won’t get you far. Try to strengthen yourself, abandoning hatreds and double standards would be a good first step. I see Russia as all others, neither better nor worse, they have as much right to security as you do, or as US does. Accept that and we can move forward.

    Well, at least we agree on Pavel and his type :)…Having met him in person, my expectations are very low (he drinks quite a bit), but he is soft-spoken, calm and looks ‘presidential‘…that’s why he beat the business-commie, Babis is too hectic, too action-oriented and eludes an air of unreliability. But it makes literally zero difference to the war.

    • Replies: @LatW
    @Beckow


    The word “yet” is the key to you argument and the major reason you and I disagree. Yes, a lot of things were ‘not yet’ and you base your rather idealistic expectations about Russia’s behavior on that. But we should agree that a major component of intelligence is the ability to anticipate
     
    Let me first clarify about the missiles. When I was writing it, I was thinking of the Neptune missile that Ukraine had been working on, not of anything that NATO would want to place there (it was out of the question). The Neptune may or may not be finished or even used in the war (don't know a 100%), but it would be a home grown weapon and not a NATO missile. That's why I said, "yet", not because I was anticipating for NATO to eventually set up a lot of armaments in Ukraine, but because such programs were started by Ukraine but not completed (this must have triggered Russia's attention). Without war there wouldn't be any kind of significant Western made armament in Ukraine since NATO was very slow and reluctant.

    However, your point still stands in that Russia plans a 100 years ahead (Russia is also very hawkish about even small military movements in her vicinity). With the long term view in mind, yes, the situation was getting somewhat undesirable for Russia. I admitted this a few years back on this very forum, that most likely if the NATO accession were to become a reality for Ukraine, that Russia would take military action, it was just a question of the scope of that action. But this doesn't take away from my point that they had to means to protect themselves without a large scale war such as now.

    Recently I posted an interview with Arestovych where he discussed this and stated very clearly - "we can't pull off neutrality, our only way to NATO is through a large war". Not sure he realized how big this war would get, but there is another video of him, a much earlier one, either from 2008 or 2011, where he seems to be predicting a large scale occupation of Southern Ukraine.

    We have admitted this. But the goal of the Ukrainian nationalists is not NATO per se, not as an end goal. The goal is establishing real (REAL, not Budapest Memorandum like) security guarantees for Ukraine. Not just for the sake of Ukrainians, but also for Europe, because if we allow a large state (or any state for that matter) that is so close to Europe to be demolished just like that, then that brings major consequences for everyone.

    But the missile issue actually brings us to the crux of the matter and why this whole thing unraveled. Something that wasn't talked about in full seriousness for 30 years (with the exception of very few EE politicians, which is actually pretty scandalous). That there is a huge security vacuum. In 1991 everyone disarmed, Ukraine was, as we see now, treacherously disarmed by outsiders from both sides. However, very quickly Russia restarted their MIC, fought wars quite actively. Russia was preparing to fight but we weren't (NATO accession is a serious but insufficient step). Ukraine always had an MIC but only started taking it seriously after 2014. So these issues from 1991 were not resolved in principle. To resolve them politically may not have been enough, because it is Russia's way to take what they can, when they can (which is when they feel like it). Thus some kind of a military deterrent had to be established (but wasn't).

    Your more pompous argument that Russia has no extraterritorial rights
     
    Let's use correct language here. Extraterritorial rights mostly apply to diplomatic immunity, diplomatic missions in general and such. There are universal human rights, European human rights and there is national sovereignty. The nation has sovereignty to implement the protection of these rights in a way that is suitable for the given nation (every nation has different circumstances), to the best of their ability in order to observe basic human rights principles. In Ukraine's case, I'm afraid we are way past this point, as right now the right to life of Ukrainian's themselves is violated daily.

    You might want to tread carefully here, because if we use this principle in an absolutist way, soon enough all kinds of non-European groups will spring up in Europe demanding "extraterritorial rights" and what not. We are already seeing that in Northern Europe and the UK. The Eastern Europeans should avoid that route at all costs.

    Again, I believe that neither of these two, NATO or the changed situation for Russian speakers (which wasn't even immediate, although the threat of it was), is the main cause of the war. Those are definitely triggers and points of major irritation or provocation (in Russias opinion), but the main reason is much bigger - decoupling of Ukraine from the Russian space, the change in Ukraine's geopolitical orientation, the discarding of the post-Soviet Ukrainian identity in favor of the original, God given Ukrainian national identity.

    If it were just about "Russian speakers' rights", Russia would go out of her way to salvage as many as possible.

    Russia would not have abandoned them in 2014. What Russia in fact did, is come in, help instigate the uprising, rile people up, arm people who were already unsatisfied with the changing situation (rightfully, from their POV), come in for one or two operations (Northern Wind, Illovaisk) and then not finish the job and let the problem fester. There is a lot of talk and regret about this among Russian imperialist nationalists.

    And then now, to come back and kill so many? Do you realize that most of those dispossessed and killed, maimed and tortured are Russophones? Yes, many Ukrainian and many Russian speaking Ukrainian nationalists... but they are still carriers of the language. Their children won't be that way anymore.

    Anyway, to wage a war on population... in a manner that we're seeing now, kind of cancels all those points out anyway.

    no right to security
     
    Where did I say Russia has no right to security? They have plenty of territory and resources from which to project their force, if needed. They are not going to have what they had prior to 1991, period. They need to accept that. They already have Kaliningrad which is more than what they've historically EVER had and what they could not have conquered on their own, they have it because the Anglos helped them. And they have Crimea. And Belarus. That's a lot! And it's plenty to secure oneself. I would imagine that that's a lot of work already.

    They have actually compromised their own security via this "SMO". They are less secure now. You start messing with such large borders, it can go either way (btw, did you notice how previously, even when they were aggressive, they used to take much smaller bites out of other countries, but now they attacked the capital and took on a population of 35M + millions in diaspora!!!). This is a gamble, if they don't succeed, and if there is an internal shake up of some sort, their security will be even more compromised.

    In the McGregor video that was posted above, he refers to Manchukuo as an undesirable outcome for Americans in case of instability around Russia's periphery. It is quite telling that Americans fear this. If the RF lose a major war (such as this one), all kinds of things can happen and it will be their own doing! Even if it doesn't happen, if the possibility of potential chaos rises from 0.1% to 2%, that is already compromised security.


    Of course, Russia has and will have say in those matters – as will US or UK, France or China in their neighborhood.
     
    I don't now about China, but those countries do not use their "co-ethnics" as a means to destabilize other countries and as pretexts to invade other countries. That completely changes the whole equation because you're not acting in good spirit.

    your complete inability to even address that is puzzling
     
    Well, when did NATO last have a major operation that destroyed a country's capital, especially on the European continent, that caused millions of refugees, hundreds of thousands killed? I'm not saying NATO or certain groups of countries within NATO did things right, just when has such a major invasion taken place last? I'd say the last most horrific event is Syria but it's different there (several parties are ravaging one country there).

    Money leaves Russia totally unrelated to this war, it always has.
     
    And this is supposed to be good or even normalized? If Russia kept her money and used it to improve, they could create a fantastic Candyland that all the neighbors would marvel and the neighbors would stop viewing Russia with contempt. This would mollify things and reduce bad feelings. They were already on track for that, btw, because the last 5 or so years before Covid and the war, were prosperous everywhere, in Central Eastern Europe and in Russia, too.

    And “place their missiles…“, what the hell is that supposed to mean?
     
    Exactly what I wrote. There were no Iskander in Kaliningrad for decades, but since just a few years ago there are (prior to 2014, btw). In the south, around the Black Sea, it's similar now and now the security of the Black Sea states is compromised. The overall picture is much much worse than it was.

    Why doesn’t Latvia or Ukraine, or even US and UK work on strengthening within instead of parading missiles on Russia’s borders?
     
    Let me clarify - Ukraine and Latvia should strengthen themselves (by taking Israel or Finland as examples), then the US or UK will not be as needed (although the UK will always be relevant, that relationship will grow).

    You seem to have a complete inability to see the others as having equal rights…in this case Russia.

     

    As I already said - "rights" are not given on a platter, one has to assert their "rights" (let's be honest here, not rights but power and domination) intelligently. Once you start using outward violence, all kinds of unpredictable things can happen. As happened in this case. The human factor can be very volatile and we see that the human factor employed here turned out more volatile than was assumed (Ukrainian fighting spirit, support from Western public, corruption in RF, bailing of a million potential Russian conscripts, even rise of private military companies which are not as stable as regular military organizations, not to mention the human factor in high level politicians, diplomats, etc).

    I see Russia as all others, neither better nor worse, they have as much right to security as you do, or as US does. Accept that and we can move forward.

     
    Talk that way about Hungarians, please. Or Germans. Or Anglos. Even if those issues may be resolved. You see Russia very differently than those who engage with her. Engage directly with a much larger, aggressive high IQ white, then we can talk. Then you can show me how brave and chill and "indifferent" you are.

    Well, at least we agree on Pavel and his type :)
     
    I didn't say he was tarnished, I just described how some of these post-Communist issues come back to haunt us. I'd prefer to keep an open mind in his case.

    Having met him in person, my expectations are very low (he drinks quite a bit)
     
    You saw him imbibe a little too much at a state banquet...? LOL. Yea, it's not great for a head of state to imbibe, but he looks like he can handle it. Btw, a photo came out of him hiking somewhere in the mountains with him carrying a large keg of beer on his back. I thought that was an awesome photo, bet then, for a second I thought, wait a minute, he is taking all that beer with him on a hiking trip?? Well, I'm sure he shared it with his buddies. Haha!

    but he is soft-spoken, calm and looks ‘presidential‘
     
    Yes, he looks very calm and mellow. He could build a dignified image. You're saying there will be zero difference, maybe. But I have a feeling he will throw out some pro-Atlanticist tricks here and there, like, he called Taiwan as one of the first things. You'll probably say that it's just unneeded "noise"...

    Replies: @Beckow

  851. @LatW
    @LatW


    As to that pride photo, I suspect it’s a fake
     
    https://meta.mk/en/with-a-fake-photo-the-public-is-being-deceived-that-zelensky-participated-in-a-gay-parade/

    LOL. Oh geez... the Russkies don't like these two fellows, do they... Hilarious. More playful gopnik style "work".

    Replies: @Another Polish Perspective, @Another Polish Perspective

    The photo airs some authenticity – it really looks like the old pre-digital photo, and when things are out of focus, they are out of focus together (like the leg and and the cigarette). It doesn’t look doctored.

    Not sure why Zelenski shouldn’t be gay – in the West, it could increase his popularity. As for Ukraine, well, I heard that it is more gay-tolerant than Russia anyway.

    In the old Poland homosexuality seems to have been pretty popular among Cossacks, at least when juxtaposed to Poles. Some even saw in their military organisation homosexuals traces, of Theban sacred legion composed of group of lovers, for this reason Cossacks calling themselves “mołojec” aka “a young dashing man” . I must say I wondered myself once why they spend so little time with women, despite the fact that war wasn’t always rampant in Ukraine.

    Jędrzej Kitowicz, writing in the 18th century (“Opis obyczajów za panowania Augusta III”), acusses Cossacks of rampant homosexualism and zoofilia.

    ”Żon nie mieli ani kobiety żadnej między sobą nie cierpieli; a kiedy który został przekonany, że kędy za granicą miał sprawę z kobietą, tedy takowego do pala w kureniu, z którego był, za dekretem przywiązanego, póty tłukli polanami, to jest szczypami drew, póki go nie zabili, pokazując na pozór, jakoby czcili stan czystości; dla czego też nazywali się powszechnie mołojcami, to jest młodzieńcami, gdy w samej rzeczy prowadzili życie bestialskie, mażąc się jedni z drugimi grzechem sodomskim albo łącząc z bydlętami, na które sprośności, samej naturze obmierzłe, nie było żadnej kary, jakby uczynek z kobietą był plugawszy niż z kobyłą albo z krową.”

    It is the old Polish, so I can’t translate this well but you do recognize words like “kureń”,”mołojec”, “grzech sodomski – sin of Sodom”, “bydlęta” – beasts, kobyła- mare, krowa – cow, “łącząc z bydlętami” – uniting with beasts.

    Zelenski should simply deny rumours, not just about this photo. But, well, he doesn’t deny. Apparently, he does not want to.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @Another Polish Perspective


    In the old Poland homosexuality seems to have been pretty popular among Cossacks, at least when juxtaposed to Poles.
     
    You go from "pretty popular" in one sentence and in the following one you call it "traces". Seems like you can't make up your mind? :-)

    Some even saw in their military organisation homosexuals traces, of Theban sacred legion composed of group of lovers, for this reason Cossacks calling themselves “mołojec” aka “a young dashing man” .
     
    Are you sure that the percentage of soldiers engaged in homosexual activity within the cossack camps wasn't actually quite comparable to that of what was going on within the encampment of the mighty Polish hussars, or of any other military formations of the era? :-)

    https://64.media.tumblr.com/5ee5b058b6a1ea2776daa46cb8bcbfae/tumblr_or0qz3yUUW1tzeqovo2_1280.jpg
    , @LatW
    @Another Polish Perspective


    As for Ukraine, well, I heard that it is more gay-tolerant than Russia anyway.
     
    Gay & trans overreach, of course, is not good, but what matters in the long run is how healthy and vital the heteros are, that's what matters above all.

    In the old Poland homosexuality seems to have been pretty popular among Cossacks, at least when juxtaposed to Poles.
     
    Well, I'm not sure Poles would have a fully objective view of Ukrainians. :)

    It is known that in male only organizations, all kinds of things happen. Some of it has to do with establishing hierarchy which is very important to these groups.

    It sounds like it had some signs of a military order. You know that the Teutonic Knights were also supposed to be completely chaste and abstinent.

    for this reason Cossacks calling themselves “mołojec” aka “a young dashing man”
     
    Yes, molodec comes from "the young one" but it also means "well done!".

    Replies: @Another Polish Perspective

    , @Another Polish Perspective
    @Another Polish Perspective

    Here is Kitowicz's passage mostly Google-translated but redacted by me. The true translation should of course be into the 18th century English (that feat Google of course did not manage):


    “They had no wives, and they suffered no woman among themselves; and when someone was convinced that one of them had to do with a woman where else, then that man was tied to the stake in the kurzeń he was from, and by decree, he was flogged with chunks and splinters of wood, until they killed him, ostensibly showing that they worshiped the state of chastity; for this reason they were commonly called mołojcy, that is, young men, whereas, as the matter of fact they led a beastly life, smearing one another with the sin of Sodom, or uniting with beasts, for which obscenity, disgusting by nature, there was no punishment, as if the deed with a woman was filthier than with a mare or a cow."

  852. @LatW
    @LatW


    As to that pride photo, I suspect it’s a fake
     
    https://meta.mk/en/with-a-fake-photo-the-public-is-being-deceived-that-zelensky-participated-in-a-gay-parade/

    LOL. Oh geez... the Russkies don't like these two fellows, do they... Hilarious. More playful gopnik style "work".

    Replies: @Another Polish Perspective, @Another Polish Perspective

    At your link, it is the “non-Zelenski” photo that looks doctored as the heads are out of focus with background – unlike in the “Zelenski” photo.

  853. Sher Singh says:
    @Emil Nikola Richard
    @Sher Singh


    In contests of strength, “truth” is the refuge of the weak.
     
    The thing about the duel in War and Peace is the bumbling fool Pierre won it with a lucky shot. That happens with pistol duels.

    Have you ever seen any of those fencer youtubes where the fencing teacher analyzes the swordplay in movies?

    I always thought this one was the most fun:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yzYEYyOsQtA&ab_channel=RottenTomatoesClassicTrailers

    Replies: @songbird, @Sher Singh

    No, and don’t know much about dueling.
    Sikhs would either use a Talwar or fight with Karas.

    @yahya you’ve never spent any time around blacks.
    I guarantee you’d agree with songbird.

    @aaronb Guru Nanak Dev Ji himself carried weapons. That’s why this is a funny litmus test of your sanity.

  854. @songbird
    @Yahya


    >I think it is something that requires a tight balance and a lot of formalism. I’m not sure that there is a state that quite pulls it off,

    Obviously you’ve never heard of Malaysia.
     
    No, that is not what I meant at all. Ethnic Chinese are the goose that layed the golden egg and their TFR in Malaysia is even lower than that in Singapore and Taiwan. And the TFR of Malays is cratering as well. Doesn't appear to me like a healthy society.

    Also, just fyi, there are lots of rich Egyptians as well.
     
    Obviously, there is going to be a few, with a population of about 108 million. Who would doubt it? There are lots of big mansions in poor countries, even Haiti. But what I do know about Egypt is that my relatives went there and gave food to beggar-children who seemed to rarely experience such good fortune, as to have a good meal. They were also slaughtering animals in alleyways.

    I don't think that happens in Saudi? And Egypt has the Suez Canal, fronts the Med, has extremely fertile land around the Nile, possibly higher human capital, and is a global tourist Mecca (though I guess the last could be said of Saudi due to the Hajj). I think one would say that other than its lack of oil, Egypt is more "gifted" than Saudi, and yet Saudi is objectively more prosperous, with a higher per capita, so much so that it attracts many migrants. That is "oil money." It's kind of like Dubai (rough analogy only), but if Dubai hadn't run out of oil. And if you want to tell me that an intelligent person can't benefit from it - that the gains are only to Saudi royals, who get the first checks - then I don't believe it.

    BTW, thought you said you were on some sort of scholarship? Tell me, what would it have come to if you had to pay it yourself? Or was that only your friends, and you were paying your own way?

    Because we all know how normal it is to call someone an “ape” and “gorilla” for the sinful act of politely asking for a college assignment interview; something no-one proper human being does – only primates.
     
    First, he wasn't being polite. He was telling me that he majoring in grievance studies against my people to become a commissar and get in on the graft - and I was already paying for it. Did you not understand that? You have to read inbetween the lines.

    Put it all together now, in case you haven't: he was doing that, despite his folks living the same distance from Boston as Europe is to sub-Sahara, only in the 1950s or even later. (My grandfather had an acquaintance knicknamed "Nigger Jim" or something who was white - and probably palish. That was in his yearbook - I saw it.)

    AND he was doing that despite trillions of dollars, and endless sacrifices for people like him. AND the exact same thing is happening in Europe, and he is part of that too (if perhaps unwittingly). AND that is not the first and only time that sort of thing has happened to me.

    You think that is being polite?! Sorry, you couldn't be more wrong. There are not many things that you can do that are ruder than that. Wouldn't have minded at all, if I were walking in Alabama, and he had merely insulted me, but none of those other things happened.

    Only a woke vegan enthrall to the regime can possibly take offense at such a benevolent sentiment.
     
    Please, don't overreact here. Quite common language internationally, and every place where it is accepted is non-woke and not being mass-invaded. Quite a coincidence, wouldn't you say? The Chinese even have a term "white monkey", (BTW, have you seen The Black Ship scrolls about Perry's arrival in Japan?) and I'd be surprised if you hadn't heard some insulting stuff about Euros yourself, behind the scenes. The genius of the regime here is they don't have to say that, they've turned "white" into a pejorative and can say it in the open, full of venom and bile. From the top of bureaucracies, with everyone in earshot.

    Stop paraphrasing (viz. put words in my mouth); you always twist my words and construct strawmen.
     
    What strawmen? Did you or did you not call me a "Mick?" And call Silvio a "Balkanoid" (or some such?) Tell me, what was your purpose in that?

    Replies: @Yahya

    But what I do know about Egypt is that my relatives went there and gave food to beggar-children who seemed to rarely experience such good fortune, as to have a good meal. They were also slaughtering animals in alleyways.

    Well yes that’s true. In Egypt there is unfortunately severe widespread poverty. The statistics says 30% or so of Egyptians live below the poverty line; but of course we all know these “poverty lines” are notoriously vague and subject to change. So who knows what the real rate is; or how poverty can be defined precisely. Part of that can be blamed by gross corruption and governmental mismanagement; part of it on the irresponsible breeding of the poor; and most of it simply to the misfortune of having low levels of human capital and little natural resources.

    In Saudi Arabia the poverty rate is almost certainly less. But I don’t really get your point. You calling me an “oil Arab” makes about as much sense as calling a Russian “oil Slav”. In fact; a rich Russian is multiple times more likely to have made his gains in oil & gas; since the industry is privatized there unlike Saudi Arabia. But still; just doesn’t make sense to call a Russian who made his money in the tech industry an “oil Slav”.

    I think this ties in with your tendency to view everyone as avatars of their racial/ethnic group; instead of as individuals in their own right. For example you once expressed surprise at my having a negative opinion of Hitler, saying “I believe Arabs, when they think of Hitler, view him in a positive to neutral light. Has that changed?” As if I’m supposed to represent and conform to my ethnic group’s opinion instead of forming an individual one. Also your tendency to blame any black you come across for the welfare payments made to a minority of blacks. It’s a peculiar way of looking at the world.

    [MORE]

    BTW, thought you said you were on some sort of scholarship? Tell me, what would it have come to if you had to pay it yourself? Or was that only your friends, and you were paying your own way?

    I was not; never said I was. My friends are mostly Egyptians who don’t have access to any scholarship either. Their parents paid for their college education. There are many Gulf and Med Arabs who are well-off enough, even by first world standards, to afford university without government aid. What’s so difficult for to understand about that?

    He was telling me that he majoring in grievance studies against my people to become a commissar and get in on the graft – and I was already paying for it.

    Well you didn’t mention it in your original comment. And I don’t believe you now; seems like a convenient excuse for insulting the guy.

    Put it all together now, in case you haven’t: he was doing that, despite his folks living the same distance from Boston as Europe is to sub-Sahara, only in the 1950s or even later. Wouldn’t have minded at all, if I were walking in Alabama, and he had merely insulted me, but none of those other things happened.

    Your trying to pull a trick by painting African-Americans in the North as invaders akin to illegal immigrants; when in reality they are American citizens who are within their right to live anywhere in American territory, north or south. I hesitate to speak for Americans; but the normative view is that it’s both normal and natural for American citizens to relocate anywhere in American territory; and many of them do, both white and non-white. In fact; this is a common theme in Great American novels; for example in John Steinbeck’s Mice & Men. The situation is not comparable to illegal Mexicans swimming across the Rio Grande. You are trying to make it so by treating blacks as “invaders” and “intruders”; in other words not really American citizens. But again; that’s not the normative view; and I’m happy to back it up with statistics if you don’t believe me.

    Though you like to paint blacks as newcomers and invaders; it is in fact you, the Irishman, who is the relative johnny-come-lately. Makes your language and viewpoints all the more hypocritical and egregious. As for calling the guy an “ape” and “gorilla” because of wealth transfer to blacks; again you are making him an avatar of his race; instead of treating him as an individual. You have difficulty understanding that people aren’t responsible for their group sins or misbehaviors. I’m quite sure you’d be offended if a WASP demanded all Irish be grateful for their prosperity in the US; and told you “my ancestors built the place which Irish monkeys like you are invading and defiling”. That’s unlikely to happen in the Current Year; but it could very well have happened 150 years ago. No human being with any dignity would tell the WASP “well okay, Mr. Johnson, I apologize for invading your country; and voting for Democrats and their pro-migrant, anti-native agenda. I’m just going to know my place from now on and not presume to ask you to fill out a survey”.

    • Replies: @songbird
    @Yahya


    And I don’t believe you now
     
    Oh, so you think he was after an engineering degree, and it was part of his homework to survey Euros about racism?

    seems like a convenient excuse for insulting the guy.
     
    In actuality, I was very polite to him (though not so polite as to let him make me be late for an appointment). Only a crazy person would have insulted him. I did not insult him at all, but merely lampooned the behavior here. He was deserving of scorn and not emulation.

    Also your tendency to blame any black you come across for the welfare payments made to a minority of blacks. It’s a peculiar way of looking at the world.
     
    In the specific case, he referenced a public college, subsidized by the state, so, yes, I was paying for it - the study of blood libel against my people. I attended a graduation there once, one of the professors or administrators said some really nasty stuff (celebrating the shrinking number of Euros, and that was years ago.)

    instead of treating him as an individual.
     
    That is what Jordan Peterson advocates. BTW, do you know that he recently came out for regime change in Iran?

    What’s so difficult for to understand about that?
     
    I honestly don't get it. It's not a deal, but a ripoff. Why would you spend that money? Are there not English language schools in the Middle East that would be much cheaper? Do you really need credentials over there? Wouldn't it be better to invest in your own country?

    In America, people only go to college because they feel they are forced to. Nobody considers it a good deal. At least, nobody sane. It is especially strange to me that Arabs should go when considering the obvious decadence there.

    You are trying to make it so by treating blacks as “invaders” and “intruders”; in other words not really American citizens. But again; that’s not the normative view
     
    That last is superfluous. This is Unz.

    Before that, you have employed the word "citizen." In other words, you appear to be making a legal argument.

    The heavily pregnant Nigerians who took flights to Ireland to exploit a loophole in the peace process (BTW, I wonder who told them about it) have moved there and gone on the dole and you can't send them back. They are there for ten thousand years, and you've got to deal with the problems they create and eat the costs and insults forever, or until they outbreed you. Does this sound like justice? Your argument appears to be indistinguishable from this one - at least, if you continue to employ the word "citizen", and don't go back to the drawing board.

    The situation is not comparable to illegal Mexicans swimming across the Rio Grande.
     
    They don't need to swim across, at all. Where they cross, it's like a mud puddle because so much water is drawn off for agricultural purposes. I've seen deeper brooks.

    I’m quite sure you’d be offended if a WASP demanded all Irish be grateful for their prosperity in the US
     
    Not me personally. AP, certainly, if you replaced the second demonym, with God knows what ethnicity. (likely influences his feelings against nationalism)

    I apologize for invading your country; and voting for Democrats and their pro-migrant, anti-native agenda.
     
    Obviously, I have my biases, but I don't favor this line of argument that some say that the "Irish ruined America." It doesn't seem very plausible to me for a number of reasons, which I won't delve into there. But, if it were true, it would hardly be an argument for even more immigration at a much higher genetic distance, and when there is a welfare state. Or for anyone to embrace blacks and treat them under the rubric of radical universalism, even if this was Africa.

    Though you like to paint blacks as newcomers and invaders; it is in fact you, the Irishman, who is the relative johnny-come-lately.
     
    The premiss that blacks were founding stock, while the Irish were not is tenuous to say the least.

    The 1619 Project doesn't want you to know this, but a lot of American blacks actually came here, well after the Declaration of Independence. After the invention of the cotton gin (which increased the demand for slavery). And also after the ban on slave imports in 1807 (partly meant to limit the number of blacks and their spread to new areas), they were smuggled in. Meanwhile, there were numerous, important Irish officers in the American Revolutionary War. Here's a list of some notables, though a few were actually Anglo, most of the list are not:
    https://www.irishamerica.com/2016/03/famous-irish-of-the-american-revolution/

    Oh, I'll grant you can construct a temporal argument about when my specific ancestors arrived in the country, but I think it would be non-starter on HBD grounds. The only reason people ever touch the temporal factor is that they want to appear to be non-racists. But to reduce it to its core: what does it matter if someone moves from Plymouth England to Plymouth, MA, USA in 1620 or 2022? It doesn't really matter very much, at least, so long as they are the right ethnic group (not necessarily true today.)

    Not only is the genetic distance between Ireland and Britain less than that found within practically every other major country in Europe - not to mention elsewhere, but when my father's folks came it was still considered the same country. Ireland had MPs in parliament in London. Irish immigrants had to renounce allegiance to Queen Victoria.

    Replies: @Yahya

  855. @LatW
    @Ivashka the fool


    Only idiots repeat their mistakes twice.
     
    Yea, I always wonder which part it is that they want to repeat. The 20M dead?

    That’s RusFed “patriotism” in a nutshell: in a country colonized by the Noviop, where most ethnic Russians are seen as worthy less than most Vainakhs or Dags, to walk around pretending that one is a mighty conqueror waiting to take turns in the “rape of Berlin”.
     
    Of course, it's mostly meant for internal consumption. It might be like a mantra that's meant to hold things together in people's consciousnesses (in that sense it's a skrepa). But, yea, funny. In the West they don't know about this saying. Probably not even in Germany.

    Yes that’s gopnik’s talk, not even vor’s talk but the talk of some shpana near the “parasha”. Nothing serious really.
     
    "Piterskaya shpana." I like gopnik / prison talk though (from what little I know), it's what they call "based".

    You don't believe Pynya said it to Boris? Has Boris ever lied? Yea, it does seem very direct. But I do believe it. Piterskaya shpana, after all.

    As to that pride photo, I suspect it's a fake. 1999 is a long time ago, Arestovych is 47 now, so in 1999 he would've been 24. In that photo he looks about 30, not in his early 20s. I'd say it's a fake, but who knows. Usually, one can tell from the hands (movement of wrists, fingers). He is not the most rugged type, that's for sure.

    By the way, that song video you posted, you can see the monument to Tsoi in it, from the place of his death. Sad.

    Replies: @LatW, @Ivashka the fool

    I think the pic is from one of the plays of Kvartal 95 that they might have done together, both are actors after all. And of course given the “homocentric” focus that shpana used to have, where you had to always emphasize that you’re as straight as a 2″×4″ for fear of being put down and ending up a petukh, it inflames the imagination of that very types that “can repeat”. Again, Freudian much. Anyways, stupid people are stupid (being a Fool, I am an expert in such matters). End of story.

    [MORE]

    The word gopnik originates from Piter in the early twentieth century, and yes the local shpana was bad, especially the Ligovo neighborhood gangs where Pynya grew up. He is not lying about his tough upbringing. But one of the things I remember of my teenage interactions with these types, was that they preyed upon the weak. When they met with enough resistance, they’re usually gave up. They were basically sociopathic bullies.

    My own Moscow neighborhood was quite bad, not as bad as Lyubertsy or Ligovo in Piter, but it was also infested with enough nasty shpana some of whom ended up street thugs and racketeers in the mafia later. They mostly finished their life very badly: alcoholic addiction, drugs, STDs, prison times and suicides. I am glad that even though I interacted with them quite often, I have never been too close to be involved in their petty crimes and incessant bullying of others. Of course my family was intellectuals, not proles, and I ended up leaving my neighborhood school to go to a school specialized in French closer to downtown Moscow, so that helped putting some distance between me and them.

    Yes, the video clip is by young Russians born and raised in Latvia. With a little luck once this all disgusting situation resolves itself, these young people will have a good and positive life. They look healthy and they still listen to Tsoï / Kino, good kids.

    When it was the first anniversary of his death, I went to Piter, joined my cousin there ans we visited his grave, then spent the evening and the night at the place where he worked as a fireman in an old building and that was called Kamchatka. There were people from all around the USSR, Baltic kids too and some Ukrainians I drank with. Victor was very respected and loved by many among us because his songs were about our life and we could easily self-identify with the lyrics.

    May he rest in peace.

    • Thanks: Mr. Hack, S
    • Replies: @AP
    @Ivashka the fool

    What did you think about the movie Leto that came out a couple of years ago? My wife and I took our oldest kid, who liked it and afterwards listens to Kino.

    https://youtu.be/noOTz0y8OHc

    FWIW I prefer DDT and Krematoriy in terms of music from that era (my wife likes DDT and Nautilus).

    Replies: @AnonfromTN

    , @LatW
    @Ivashka the fool


    I think the pic is from one of the plays of Kvartal 95 that they might have done together, both are actors after all.
     
    This is clearly a fake, a basic image search shows that. In 1999, Arestovych was in the military academy, highly doubtful he could've made it to the States in that year, very few travelled back in those years. They both looked much younger during those years than on that pic.

    The word gopnik originates from Piter in the early twentieth century, and yes the local shpana was bad, especially the Ligovo neighborhood gangs where Pynya grew up.
     
    Well, that part about Pynya's background is understandable, later they took judo classes to deal with it. But I heard their coach was a gangster. And there are rumors that Pynya later hung out with Leningrad gangsters. Understandably, at that time you had to to some extent. You had to fight them with their methods.

    But one of the things I remember of my teenage interactions with these types, was that they preyed upon the weak. When they met with enough resistance, they’re usually gave up. They were basically sociopathic bullies.
     

    Of course, they preyed upon the weak! In Riga, several of them in a group also enjoyed attacking one person (usually one Latvian guy). And, yes, they do back down when you express strength and resolve. I have seen a Latvian guy deescalate after a couple of shpana called out to him and tried to harass him. He didn't even look in their direction but kept walking and calmly and sternly told them to be quiet in Russian. And they shut up. He did it purely with his demeanor.

    Of course my family was intellectuals, not proles, and I ended up leaving my neighborhood school to go to a school specialized in French closer to downtown Moscow, so that helped putting some distance between me and them.
     

    That's wonderful! You got the best of both worlds. :)

    With a little luck once this all disgusting situation resolves itself, these young people will have a good and positive life. They look healthy and they still listen to Tsoï / Kino, good kids.
     
    Who knows about the future, but the children and youths in the Baltics are quite healthy and well taken care of. Things are more strict than back in the late 90s, early 2000s when one could purchase cigarettes easily even as a teenager, that was clamped down quite a while ago. Btw, the elderly Russians get decent medical care, too (the policlinic for free services is always full of them and it's decent level care).

    then spent the evening and the night at the place where he worked as a fireman in an old building and that was called Kamchatka.
     
    That is really cool. Cool name.

    There were people from all around the USSR, Baltic kids too and some Ukrainians I drank with. Victor was very respected and loved by many among us because his songs were about our life and we could easily self-identify with the lyrics.
     
    He was popular in the Baltics, too, of course. RIP.

    But I'd say, Akvarium was even more popular, I had a close friend who was just obsessed with BG. She would always wait for his concerts and post his lyrics everywhere.

    , @LatW
    @Ivashka the fool


    both are actors after all
     
    You know, actor and politician can sometimes be quite close. :) I mean, not everyone can be a fricking lawyer or a former head of Komsomol with banker friends. Some have to be self-made. :)

    Ok, I'm posting this just for you.

    For those who don't understand Russian, this is a parody of an "independent bimbo" who is deep inside just a "gold digger". I can't judge his acting talent, but it's quite funny. Please, meet Lyusen'ka.

    Or would you rather stick with the military analysis? :)

    Under MORE.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_Uc-nJQD9k

  856. @HeavilyMarbledSteak
    @HeavilyMarbledSteak

    Or put better, Zen isn't about not being superior, as that's still an affirmation, but it's simply not about being superior.

    But to not be about being superior, is a radical individualistic act in our society - yet simultaneously, it denies the basis of individualistic selfishness :)

    Likewise, to claim that one should not make positive statements, is in itself a positive statement - to claim one is beyond words, is to not yet be beyond words.

    That is why the classic Zen text is called the Gateless Gate. Non-dualism means not setting up an either/or dichotomy.

    Replies: @Ivashka the fool

    That is why the classic Zen text is called the Gateless Gate.

    There’s no gate, there never was a wall to have a gate built into it to begin with.

    Your monkey mind is climbing up the tree.

    Come down and calm down.

    🙂

    • Replies: @HeavilyMarbledSteak
    @Ivashka the fool

    Good stuff, my friend, good stuff. I shall try :)

  857. @Ivashka the fool
    @LatW


    Do you know the phrase “We can repeat it” (Можем повторить)? It’s their favorite phrase to throw around. As if there are no others out there who can also repeat things they’ve done.
     
    Only idiots repeat their mistakes twice. And I tell you that as a Fool !

    You have of course understood the sexual/Freudian undertones of the "We can repeat it !" slogan ? That's RusFed "patriotism" in a nutshell: in a country colonized by the Noviop, where most ethnic Russians are seen as worthy less than most Vainakhs or Dags, to walk around pretending that one is a mighty conqueror waiting to take turns in the "rape of Berlin".

    Compensation much.

    Yes that's gopnik's talk, not even vor's talk but the talk of some shpana near the "parasha". Nothing serious really.

    And speaking of nothing serious, I don't believe Boris Johnson when he says that Pynya has threatened him. Pynya is too cowardly for that, while BoJo is even more of a clown than Zelensky is.

    https://ic.pics.livejournal.com/matveychev_oleg/27303223/31052882/31052882_original.jpg

    I guess you recognize the pair in the middle. They look sweet. Supposedly the picture has been taken in New York on the Gay Pride parade in 1999, although I am of course not certain of this at all.

    🙂

    Replies: @LatW, @Mr. Hack, @Dmitry

    The resemblance is striking, but not conclusive. Who’s the blonde on the left? Any chance that the photo was stitched together (photo shop) using current technologies? I’ve seen some very realistic results…

    Are there any other indications that Zelensky was even in New York in 1999?

    • Replies: @Ivashka the fool
    @Mr. Hack


    Who’s the blonde on the left?
     
    Arestovych. I don't know whether Zelya has been to NY in the 90ies. I think this photo is from one of their comic plays either with or before Kvartal 95. Probably around the days when Zelya practiced his piano playing skills...

    😉
  858. @Another Polish Perspective
    @LatW

    The photo airs some authenticity - it really looks like the old pre-digital photo, and when things are out of focus, they are out of focus together (like the leg and and the cigarette). It doesn't look doctored.

    Not sure why Zelenski shouldn't be gay - in the West, it could increase his popularity. As for Ukraine, well, I heard that it is more gay-tolerant than Russia anyway.

    In the old Poland homosexuality seems to have been pretty popular among Cossacks, at least when juxtaposed to Poles. Some even saw in their military organisation homosexuals traces, of Theban sacred legion composed of group of lovers, for this reason Cossacks calling themselves "mołojec" aka "a young dashing man" . I must say I wondered myself once why they spend so little time with women, despite the fact that war wasn't always rampant in Ukraine.

    Jędrzej Kitowicz, writing in the 18th century ("Opis obyczajów za panowania Augusta III"), acusses Cossacks of rampant homosexualism and zoofilia.

    ''Żon nie mieli ani kobiety żadnej między sobą nie cierpieli; a kiedy który został przekonany, że kędy za granicą miał sprawę z kobietą, tedy takowego do pala w kureniu, z którego był, za dekretem przywiązanego, póty tłukli polanami, to jest szczypami drew, póki go nie zabili, pokazując na pozór, jakoby czcili stan czystości; dla czego też nazywali się powszechnie mołojcami, to jest młodzieńcami, gdy w samej rzeczy prowadzili życie bestialskie, mażąc się jedni z drugimi grzechem sodomskim albo łącząc z bydlętami, na które sprośności, samej naturze obmierzłe, nie było żadnej kary, jakby uczynek z kobietą był plugawszy niż z kobyłą albo z krową.''


    It is the old Polish, so I can't translate this well but you do recognize words like "kureń","mołojec", "grzech sodomski - sin of Sodom", "bydlęta" - beasts, kobyła- mare, krowa - cow, "łącząc z bydlętami" - uniting with beasts.

    Zelenski should simply deny rumours, not just about this photo. But, well, he doesn't deny. Apparently, he does not want to.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @LatW, @Another Polish Perspective

    In the old Poland homosexuality seems to have been pretty popular among Cossacks, at least when juxtaposed to Poles.

    You go from “pretty popular” in one sentence and in the following one you call it “traces”. Seems like you can’t make up your mind? 🙂

    Some even saw in their military organisation homosexuals traces, of Theban sacred legion composed of group of lovers, for this reason Cossacks calling themselves “mołojec” aka “a young dashing man” .

    Are you sure that the percentage of soldiers engaged in homosexual activity within the cossack camps wasn’t actually quite comparable to that of what was going on within the encampment of the mighty Polish hussars, or of any other military formations of the era? 🙂

  859. @Mr. Hack
    @Ivashka the fool

    The resemblance is striking, but not conclusive. Who's the blonde on the left? Any chance that the photo was stitched together (photo shop) using current technologies? I've seen some very realistic results...

    Are there any other indications that Zelensky was even in New York in 1999?

    Replies: @Ivashka the fool

    Who’s the blonde on the left?

    Arestovych. I don’t know whether Zelya has been to NY in the 90ies. I think this photo is from one of their comic plays either with or before Kvartal 95. Probably around the days when Zelya practiced his piano playing skills…

    😉

  860. @Beckow
    @Greasy William


    Biden really cannot go into the 2024 election having lost Ukraine to Russia.
     
    What are the odds that Biden will actually run? In a well managed performance - and that's what we have here, let's enjoy it - you replace exhausted players. It is an effective method that countries like Russia or China have never mastered.

    You could be right because the anti-Russia mania has been built up on a very broad scale. It will be hard to call it back. That's the dilemma: Nato provoked the war - the morons in Washington staring at maps after dinner - without thinking it through.

    It was a bluff, threat, game, even some ethnic revenge and an institutional need to do something. They ended up on a ledge with Russia having the upper hand. They are both holding nukes and it will be increasingly tempting. These are the fruits of lack of disciple, foresight, basic intelligence and some life experience.

    Replies: @A123

    Biden really cannot go into the 2024 election having lost Ukraine to Russia.

    What are the odds that Biden will actually run? In a well managed performance – and that’s what we have here, let’s enjoy it – you replace exhausted players. It is an effective method that countries like Russia or China have never mastered.

    The “Russia, Russia, Russia” myth has been dying a slow death for years. Add to that the impending investigation of Hunter Biden’s corruption. The DNC will want to move on from the Ukraine fiasco. Sacrificing Not-The-President Biden is an easy choice.

    However, timing is a brutal problem. If they do it:

    • Too soon — Not-The-VP Harris’s is elevated. She becomes the de facto 2024 candidate. How can the DNC not nominate a black female office holder in their primaries?

    • Too late — Not-The-President Biden’s believes he will have a second term. Any plan requiring him to gracefully stand aside is heavily constrained by his arrogance and lack of lucidity. An arranged health scare during the primaries might work in terms of forcing a new candidate. Who would it be — Kamala Harris? Pete Buttigieg? Stacy Abrams? Gavin Newsome? Beto??? All of their high visibility options are certain losers.

    The Democrats are in such disarray, Mike Pence should swap parties. His chances there are much better than the GOP. His disgraceful assault on the Constitution would be highly popular with DNC base voters. Yes. I am joking, but this could become a real thing.

    PEACE 😇

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @A123

    You should be quite concerned, especially taking note of the poor support of Republican candidates during the last election (remember the grand Republican tsunami that never occured?). It's high time that you started to take note of Pence, a real American patriot and a real Christian (not the phoney baloney type that Trump represents), or how he decides to position himself going forward that will make a huge impression on Trump's campaign. He's about as likely to go over to the DNC as you are in renouncing Putler and his "Christian" campaign within Ukraine.

    , @AnonfromTN
    @A123


    I am joking, but this could become a real thing.
     
    Installing a corrupt demented half-corpse in the White House by massive electoral fraud would have been considered a sick joke as late as 2019. Yet here we are.

    As the saying goes, “life is a theater”. I would add “whle political life is a circus". Just look how many clowns are now playing heads of state.
  861. @Ivashka the fool
    @HeavilyMarbledSteak


    That is why the classic Zen text is called the Gateless Gate.
     
    There's no gate, there never was a wall to have a gate built into it to begin with.

    Your monkey mind is climbing up the tree.

    Come down and calm down.

    🙂

    Replies: @HeavilyMarbledSteak

    Good stuff, my friend, good stuff. I shall try 🙂

  862. @A123
    @Beckow



    Biden really cannot go into the 2024 election having lost Ukraine to Russia.
     
    What are the odds that Biden will actually run? In a well managed performance – and that’s what we have here, let’s enjoy it – you replace exhausted players. It is an effective method that countries like Russia or China have never mastered.
     
    The "Russia, Russia, Russia" myth has been dying a slow death for years. Add to that the impending investigation of Hunter Biden's corruption. The DNC will want to move on from the Ukraine fiasco. Sacrificing Not-The-President Biden is an easy choice.

    However, timing is a brutal problem. If they do it:

    • Too soon -- Not-The-VP Harris's is elevated. She becomes the de facto 2024 candidate. How can the DNC not nominate a black female office holder in their primaries?

    • Too late -- Not-The-President Biden's believes he will have a second term. Any plan requiring him to gracefully stand aside is heavily constrained by his arrogance and lack of lucidity. An arranged health scare during the primaries might work in terms of forcing a new candidate. Who would it be -- Kamala Harris? Pete Buttigieg? Stacy Abrams? Gavin Newsome? Beto??? All of their high visibility options are certain losers.

    The Democrats are in such disarray, Mike Pence should swap parties. His chances there are much better than the GOP. His disgraceful assault on the Constitution would be highly popular with DNC base voters. Yes. I am joking, but this could become a real thing.

    PEACE 😇

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @AnonfromTN

    You should be quite concerned, especially taking note of the poor support of Republican candidates during the last election (remember the grand Republican tsunami that never occured?). It’s high time that you started to take note of Pence, a real American patriot and a real Christian (not the phoney baloney type that Trump represents), or how he decides to position himself going forward that will make a huge impression on Trump’s campaign. He’s about as likely to go over to the DNC as you are in renouncing Putler and his “Christian” campaign within Ukraine.

  863. @HeavilyMarbledSteak
    @AP


    Indeed, in your arrogance you claim to know better about Christianity than a Christian, to understand Buddhism better than do practicing Buddhists, to understand Judaism better than do Orthodox devout Jews, you even to teach about Sikhism to a Sikh
     
    Ok, but if Christians didn't arrogantly question Judaism, they wouldn't exist, if Buddhists didn't arrogantly question Hinduism then it wouldn't exist, if Judaism didn't arrogantly question Near East idol worship, it wouldn't exist, if Sikhism didn't question Hinduism, it wouldn't exist.

    So all those things I am arrogantly questioning themselves arose out of arrogantly questioning earlier things :)

    The truth is, one needs arrogance just as much as one needs humility - indeed, when all of society says you should be egotistical, going against this and trying to be humble is itself a supreme form of arrogance. But the right kind.

    If a Jew, a Christian, a Sikh, a Buddhist say something that plainly contradict reason and their own texts and greatest sages and teachers, I will have the arrogance to point this out, out of an abundance of humility :)

    Indeed, isn't it more humble to submit to the texts and sages rather than contemporary society :) Who is being arrogant here exactly lol.

    Its been said of Zen that it consists in being superior by realizing that everyone is absolutely equal ultimately.

    But I'm glad you're conceding a bit on work and realizing it is not the be all and end all of life. This is good.

    Replies: @Ivashka the fool, @AP

    Ok, but if Christians didn’t arrogantly question Judaism, they wouldn’t exist… So all those things I am arrogantly questioning themselves arose out of arrogantly questioning earlier things

    Thanks for admitting that all along your goal is to displace and replace Christianity, as Christianity did to traditional Judaism.

    So you are an enemy of Christianity.

    Just so we know where you stand.

    But I’m glad you’re conceding a bit on work and realizing it is not

    Translation:

    You invent fiction about me being some sort of workaholic, then when I correct your weird fantasy, you falsely claim that I conceded something.

    • Replies: @HeavilyMarbledSteak
    @AP

    Um, as far as I can recall, Judaism is still with us, and has not exactly been replaced lol.

    But yes, modern Christianity has become basically like the Pharisees of old, it has become what it tried to replace, as we see in you, and therefore the true message must be restored once again.

    Happens all the time to every religion. Judaism too has become like the Near Eastern idol worship it tried to replace and needs a restoration. Happened to Judaism in the time of Jesus too.

    It's no big deal, but we have to deal with it, that's all.

    Replies: @Sher Singh, @AP

    , @Barbarossa
    @AP


    You invent fiction about me being some sort of workaholic
     
    Well, I believe he said authoritarian, which I think you unquestioningly are. Negative connotations aside I suspect the world needs a few people with authoritarian tendencies, so I wouldn't feel too offended. Perhaps you and Aaron B together bring a state perfect equipoise to the world. The UNZ ying and yang, so to speak. LOL

    Don't worry, no-one here would take accusations of being a workaholic seriously, especially with 2.2 million words and almost 15,000 comments written! If any of us were real workaholics, we wouldn't on this board engaging in esoteric discussions!

    Replies: @AP

  864. @Ivashka the fool
    @LatW

    I think the pic is from one of the plays of Kvartal 95 that they might have done together, both are actors after all. And of course given the "homocentric" focus that shpana used to have, where you had to always emphasize that you're as straight as a 2"×4" for fear of being put down and ending up a petukh, it inflames the imagination of that very types that "can repeat". Again, Freudian much. Anyways, stupid people are stupid (being a Fool, I am an expert in such matters). End of story.



    The word gopnik originates from Piter in the early twentieth century, and yes the local shpana was bad, especially the Ligovo neighborhood gangs where Pynya grew up. He is not lying about his tough upbringing. But one of the things I remember of my teenage interactions with these types, was that they preyed upon the weak. When they met with enough resistance, they're usually gave up. They were basically sociopathic bullies.

    My own Moscow neighborhood was quite bad, not as bad as Lyubertsy or Ligovo in Piter, but it was also infested with enough nasty shpana some of whom ended up street thugs and racketeers in the mafia later. They mostly finished their life very badly: alcoholic addiction, drugs, STDs, prison times and suicides. I am glad that even though I interacted with them quite often, I have never been too close to be involved in their petty crimes and incessant bullying of others. Of course my family was intellectuals, not proles, and I ended up leaving my neighborhood school to go to a school specialized in French closer to downtown Moscow, so that helped putting some distance between me and them.

    Yes, the video clip is by young Russians born and raised in Latvia. With a little luck once this all disgusting situation resolves itself, these young people will have a good and positive life. They look healthy and they still listen to Tsoï / Kino, good kids.

    https://youtu.be/wKxYPPXwZQQ

    When it was the first anniversary of his death, I went to Piter, joined my cousin there ans we visited his grave, then spent the evening and the night at the place where he worked as a fireman in an old building and that was called Kamchatka. There were people from all around the USSR, Baltic kids too and some Ukrainians I drank with. Victor was very respected and loved by many among us because his songs were about our life and we could easily self-identify with the lyrics.

    May he rest in peace.

    Replies: @AP, @LatW, @LatW

    What did you think about the movie Leto that came out a couple of years ago? My wife and I took our oldest kid, who liked it and afterwards listens to Kino.

    FWIW I prefer DDT and Krematoriy in terms of music from that era (my wife likes DDT and Nautilus).

    • Replies: @AnonfromTN
    @AP


    I prefer DDT and Krematoriy in terms of music from that era (my wife likes DDT and Nautilus).
     
    Back at the time I liked Nautilus and Tsoi. I still like old Nautilus songs (new ones are mostly mediocre at best) and Tsoi (as he died, there is only old Tsoi, which is good for him).

    Never liked Boris Grebenshchikov. His songs were always more pretentious than good. Now there is a new Russian song mocking him, saying that he is “B” and “G”. For non-Russian speakers, in Russian B (“б” in Cyrillic; short for “блядь”, meaning slut), whereas G (г in Cyrillic, short for “гавно”, meaning shit).
  865. @Beckow
    @Yevardian


    ....I don’t see Russia achieving any kind of strategic victory at this point unless it does absolutely drastic.
     
    How do you define a strategic victory? I won't quibble about the value of Donbas or a few villages, you could be right although that could be said about almost any geography (Armenia's Karabakh being a prime example :)...

    I keep repeating that the war is about keeping Nato and its weapons and bases out of Ukraine. There are other issues - local Russians, chernozem, Azov sea, Ukie-land as whole, perceptions etc... -but the core issue is will Nato have bases on Russia's border in Ukraine. If Russia prevents it, they would have won. If not, they will lose.

    To many it seems that Nato in Ukieland is a marginal issue, even made up - and Western media space works overtime never to mention it or to pretend (=lie like AP here) that wasn't the plan. Of course it was, Nato wasn't in Ukraine for Zelko's jokes or his wife's pretty eyes, they knew what they were doing.

    If you and Karlin can convince us that Nato will be in Ukraine, with bases and missiles, maybe even a formal membership, then you will have something. That is the core of the matter. The secondary question is whether Russia has the will to fight to win the war - you are right, they have been reluctant mostly because they didn't want to slaughter a lot of hapless Ukies. Everyone knows that they could - the way Nato bombed Serbia, Iraq...they could go medieval and prevail. The question is can they bring themselves to do it...

    (Djokovic just did an interview about how Nato brutally bombed Beograd when he was child, the squirming CNN assholes couldn't wait to censor him - most viewers probably thought that "it was Russia that bombed Serbia!" - such is the incredible hypocrisy and stupidity in the West. So let the dice roll...)

    Replies: @Emil Nikola Richard

    (Djokovic just did an interview about how Nato brutally bombed Beograd when he was child, the squirming CNN assholes couldn’t wait to censor him – most viewers probably thought that “it was Russia that bombed Serbia!” – such is the incredible hypocrisy and stupidity in the West. So let the dice roll…)

    He just smacked down every opponent he in a big tournament in Melbourne where they wouldn’t let him play last year because he refused to take the stupid experimental genetic medicine. Every television gasbag wants an interview now and there are dozens available.

    A link and time stamp would help!

    Battle of the nations
    Serbia Greece

  866. @A123
    @Beckow



    Biden really cannot go into the 2024 election having lost Ukraine to Russia.
     
    What are the odds that Biden will actually run? In a well managed performance – and that’s what we have here, let’s enjoy it – you replace exhausted players. It is an effective method that countries like Russia or China have never mastered.
     
    The "Russia, Russia, Russia" myth has been dying a slow death for years. Add to that the impending investigation of Hunter Biden's corruption. The DNC will want to move on from the Ukraine fiasco. Sacrificing Not-The-President Biden is an easy choice.

    However, timing is a brutal problem. If they do it:

    • Too soon -- Not-The-VP Harris's is elevated. She becomes the de facto 2024 candidate. How can the DNC not nominate a black female office holder in their primaries?

    • Too late -- Not-The-President Biden's believes he will have a second term. Any plan requiring him to gracefully stand aside is heavily constrained by his arrogance and lack of lucidity. An arranged health scare during the primaries might work in terms of forcing a new candidate. Who would it be -- Kamala Harris? Pete Buttigieg? Stacy Abrams? Gavin Newsome? Beto??? All of their high visibility options are certain losers.

    The Democrats are in such disarray, Mike Pence should swap parties. His chances there are much better than the GOP. His disgraceful assault on the Constitution would be highly popular with DNC base voters. Yes. I am joking, but this could become a real thing.

    PEACE 😇

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @AnonfromTN

    I am joking, but this could become a real thing.

    Installing a corrupt demented half-corpse in the White House by massive electoral fraud would have been considered a sick joke as late as 2019. Yet here we are.

    As the saying goes, “life is a theater”. I would add “whle political life is a circus”. Just look how many clowns are now playing heads of state.

    • LOL: A123
  867. @AnonfromTN
    @Yevardian


    Taking a few hundred sq.kilometres of deeply impoverished East-Ukrainian territory, recognised by absolutely no one who matters, whilst the US/Europe continues arming Ukraine’s remainder to the teeth for the indefinite future, is hardly any ‘victory’ in my eyes.
     
    FYI, Donbass and the rest of Eastern Ukraine produced most of Ukrainian GDP. Western Ukraine is backward and impoverished. Having lost the host, the parasite dies.

    As to recognition, the only one that matters is recognition by the locals. FYI, ~95% of Donbass residents hate Ukie’s guts. Even self-appointed Ukie “patriots” acknowledge that from time to time. As one of the Ukie POWs said on camera, Russian soldiers treat us well, but Donbass soldiers want to kill us all.


    Now Russia is fucked, and so is Armenia for that matter.
     
    I wouldn’t be sure about Russia, it looked largely undamaged in October when I was there. What’s more, most Western brands that loudly proclaimed that they are leaving Russia actually remain there. All economic analysts bemoan the fact that 85-90% of Western companies keep doing business in Russia: money talks. I hope that the RF government gives them a hard kick in the butt to get them out. Otherwise the leeches won’t leave. I agree about Armenia, with clarification that Armenia is self-fucked.

    Replies: @AP

    FYI, Donbass and the rest of Eastern Ukraine produced most of Ukrainian GDP. Western Ukraine is backward and impoverished.

    Under Austria, the Galician per capita GDP exceeded that of Russia, all the Balkans (including parts of Hungary), and Portugal. Despite Galicia being tied with Dalmatia as the poorest part of Austria.

    When the Soviets annexed Galicia it was far more developed than was the USSR (one of my grandparents transferred studies from Kharkiv to Lviv at that time and saw the difference firsthand). The Soviets who came in were dazzled by the higher level of culture and materiel means. Conversely, any remaining pro-Soviet affinity by locals vanished when they experienced Sovok first-hand.

    But under Sovok misrule western Ukraine fell behind.

    Having lost the host, the parasite dies.

    Well, if the relationship was parasitical one would indeed expect the rest of Ukraine to sink without Donbas. Instead, the opposite occurred and by the beginning of 2020 Donbas-less Ukraine had surpassed the per capita GDP and wages it had while the country had been burdened by the Donbas anchor.

    So now we see that Donbas had simply held the country back.

    • Replies: @AnonfromTN
    @AP


    When the Soviets annexed Galicia it was far more developed than was the USSR
     
    A bit of context. Lvov (Lwow in Polish) was fairly prosperous, while the countryside around it was dirt-poor. Before the USSR took it, Ukrainians were not allowed to live in Lwow, it was populated by Poles and Jews. The area around it remained dirt-poor and extremely backward in 1957-1961 when I lived there. Ten eggs were considered a hefty bribe.

    Well, if the relationship was parasitical one would indeed expect the rest of Ukraine to sink without Donbas
     
    It has sunk, living on massive external life support.

    Replies: @AP

  868. @AP
    @Ivashka the fool

    What did you think about the movie Leto that came out a couple of years ago? My wife and I took our oldest kid, who liked it and afterwards listens to Kino.

    https://youtu.be/noOTz0y8OHc

    FWIW I prefer DDT and Krematoriy in terms of music from that era (my wife likes DDT and Nautilus).

    Replies: @AnonfromTN

    I prefer DDT and Krematoriy in terms of music from that era (my wife likes DDT and Nautilus).

    Back at the time I liked Nautilus and Tsoi. I still like old Nautilus songs (new ones are mostly mediocre at best) and Tsoi (as he died, there is only old Tsoi, which is good for him).

    Never liked Boris Grebenshchikov. His songs were always more pretentious than good. Now there is a new Russian song mocking him, saying that he is “B” and “G”. For non-Russian speakers, in Russian B (“б” in Cyrillic; short for “блядь”, meaning slut), whereas G (г in Cyrillic, short for “гавно”, meaning shit).

  869. @AP
    @AnonfromTN


    FYI, Donbass and the rest of Eastern Ukraine produced most of Ukrainian GDP. Western Ukraine is backward and impoverished.
     
    Under Austria, the Galician per capita GDP exceeded that of Russia, all the Balkans (including parts of Hungary), and Portugal. Despite Galicia being tied with Dalmatia as the poorest part of Austria.

    When the Soviets annexed Galicia it was far more developed than was the USSR (one of my grandparents transferred studies from Kharkiv to Lviv at that time and saw the difference firsthand). The Soviets who came in were dazzled by the higher level of culture and materiel means. Conversely, any remaining pro-Soviet affinity by locals vanished when they experienced Sovok first-hand.

    But under Sovok misrule western Ukraine fell behind.

    Having lost the host, the parasite dies.

     

    Well, if the relationship was parasitical one would indeed expect the rest of Ukraine to sink without Donbas. Instead, the opposite occurred and by the beginning of 2020 Donbas-less Ukraine had surpassed the per capita GDP and wages it had while the country had been burdened by the Donbas anchor.

    So now we see that Donbas had simply held the country back.

    Replies: @AnonfromTN

    When the Soviets annexed Galicia it was far more developed than was the USSR

    A bit of context. Lvov (Lwow in Polish) was fairly prosperous, while the countryside around it was dirt-poor. Before the USSR took it, Ukrainians were not allowed to live in Lwow, it was populated by Poles and Jews. The area around it remained dirt-poor and extremely backward in 1957-1961 when I lived there. Ten eggs were considered a hefty bribe.

    Well, if the relationship was parasitical one would indeed expect the rest of Ukraine to sink without Donbas

    It has sunk, living on massive external life support.

    • Replies: @AP
    @AnonfromTN


    Before the USSR took it, Ukrainians were not allowed to live in Lwow, it was populated by Poles and Jews
     
    You are lying. My grandparents lived right off the market square before the war. The city was the headquarters of numerous Ukrainian organizations including the Greek Catholic Church, Ukrainian political parties, cooperative banks, etc. It was just under 20% ethnic Ukrainian.

    The Lubimirski Palace right on the market square in the center of the city was purchased by Ukrainian nationalists in the 19th century and was their headquarters before the Soviet takeover:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lubomirski_Palace,_Lviv

    And the countryside was not nearly as impoverished as the Soviet one.

    When the Soviets took over, they took Galician Ukrainians on exchanges or tours to Soviet Ukraine, to show off dams and such things. It backfired, the Galicians were horrified by the poor living conditions of the Soviet people, many of whom were living in barracks. And of course millions had starved less than 10 years earlier.

    I hope nobody takes you seriously when you discuss Ukraine.

    The area around it remained dirt-poor and extremely backward in 1957-1961
     
    Maybe by then, under Sovok mismanagement Galicia had finally fallen behind. But you don’t have a good track record of accuracy.

    It has sunk, living on massive external life support

     

    GDP and wages up, foreign debt down by early 2020.

    Replies: @AnonfromTN

  870. @AnonfromTN
    @AP


    When the Soviets annexed Galicia it was far more developed than was the USSR
     
    A bit of context. Lvov (Lwow in Polish) was fairly prosperous, while the countryside around it was dirt-poor. Before the USSR took it, Ukrainians were not allowed to live in Lwow, it was populated by Poles and Jews. The area around it remained dirt-poor and extremely backward in 1957-1961 when I lived there. Ten eggs were considered a hefty bribe.

    Well, if the relationship was parasitical one would indeed expect the rest of Ukraine to sink without Donbas
     
    It has sunk, living on massive external life support.

    Replies: @AP

    Before the USSR took it, Ukrainians were not allowed to live in Lwow, it was populated by Poles and Jews

    You are lying. My grandparents lived right off the market square before the war. The city was the headquarters of numerous Ukrainian organizations including the Greek Catholic Church, Ukrainian political parties, cooperative banks, etc. It was just under 20% ethnic Ukrainian.

    The Lubimirski Palace right on the market square in the center of the city was purchased by Ukrainian nationalists in the 19th century and was their headquarters before the Soviet takeover:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lubomirski_Palace,_Lviv

    And the countryside was not nearly as impoverished as the Soviet one.

    When the Soviets took over, they took Galician Ukrainians on exchanges or tours to Soviet Ukraine, to show off dams and such things. It backfired, the Galicians were horrified by the poor living conditions of the Soviet people, many of whom were living in barracks. And of course millions had starved less than 10 years earlier.

    I hope nobody takes you seriously when you discuss Ukraine.

    The area around it remained dirt-poor and extremely backward in 1957-1961

    Maybe by then, under Sovok mismanagement Galicia had finally fallen behind. But you don’t have a good track record of accuracy.

    It has sunk, living on massive external life support

    GDP and wages up, foreign debt down by early 2020.

    • Replies: @AnonfromTN
    @AP


    It was just under 20% ethnic Ukrainian.
     
    That sure makes it an Ukrainian city. LOL.

    GDP and wages up, foreign debt down by early 2020.
     
    Before 2022 most of Donbass was under Ukie occupation. The industry there kept churning out products that Ukraine counted as its own. A lot was exported via Mariupol port, which Ukraine will never see again.

    Also, in case you did not notice that, now is February 2022, not 2020.

    Replies: @AP

  871. @AP
    @AnonfromTN


    Before the USSR took it, Ukrainians were not allowed to live in Lwow, it was populated by Poles and Jews
     
    You are lying. My grandparents lived right off the market square before the war. The city was the headquarters of numerous Ukrainian organizations including the Greek Catholic Church, Ukrainian political parties, cooperative banks, etc. It was just under 20% ethnic Ukrainian.

    The Lubimirski Palace right on the market square in the center of the city was purchased by Ukrainian nationalists in the 19th century and was their headquarters before the Soviet takeover:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lubomirski_Palace,_Lviv

    And the countryside was not nearly as impoverished as the Soviet one.

    When the Soviets took over, they took Galician Ukrainians on exchanges or tours to Soviet Ukraine, to show off dams and such things. It backfired, the Galicians were horrified by the poor living conditions of the Soviet people, many of whom were living in barracks. And of course millions had starved less than 10 years earlier.

    I hope nobody takes you seriously when you discuss Ukraine.

    The area around it remained dirt-poor and extremely backward in 1957-1961
     
    Maybe by then, under Sovok mismanagement Galicia had finally fallen behind. But you don’t have a good track record of accuracy.

    It has sunk, living on massive external life support

     

    GDP and wages up, foreign debt down by early 2020.

    Replies: @AnonfromTN

    It was just under 20% ethnic Ukrainian.

    That sure makes it an Ukrainian city. LOL.

    GDP and wages up, foreign debt down by early 2020.

    Before 2022 most of Donbass was under Ukie occupation. The industry there kept churning out products that Ukraine counted as its own. A lot was exported via Mariupol port, which Ukraine will never see again.

    Also, in case you did not notice that, now is February 2022, not 2020.

    • Replies: @AP
    @AnonfromTN


    “It was just under 20% ethnic Ukrainian.”

    That sure makes it an Ukrainian city. LOL.
     

    Remember your lie though? You had written this: “Before the USSR took it, Ukrainians were not allowed to live in Lwow, it was populated by Poles and Jews”

    Why is it that Sovoks like you can’t help but lie so often and so shamelessly?


    “ GDP and wages up, foreign debt down by early 2020”

    Before 2022 most of Donbass was under Ukie occupation
     

    In territory but not in population and industry. Only 1/3 of Donbas population and industry remained in Ukraine.

    So with 2/3 of Donbas gone, Ukraine’s economy did better than when it included all of Donbas.


    The industry there kept churning out products that Ukraine counted as its own. A lot was exported via Mariupol port, which Ukraine will never see again.
     
    The industry of only 1/3 of Donbas.

    Also, in case you did not notice that, now is February 2022, not 2020.
     
    In 2020 Covid affected Ukraine as it did other places but in the eve of the Russian invasion Ukraine had recovered from that economic dip.

    Replies: @AnonfromTN

  872. @AnonfromTN
    @AP


    It was just under 20% ethnic Ukrainian.
     
    That sure makes it an Ukrainian city. LOL.

    GDP and wages up, foreign debt down by early 2020.
     
    Before 2022 most of Donbass was under Ukie occupation. The industry there kept churning out products that Ukraine counted as its own. A lot was exported via Mariupol port, which Ukraine will never see again.

    Also, in case you did not notice that, now is February 2022, not 2020.

    Replies: @AP

    “It was just under 20% ethnic Ukrainian.”

    That sure makes it an Ukrainian city. LOL.

    Remember your lie though? You had written this: “Before the USSR took it, Ukrainians were not allowed to live in Lwow, it was populated by Poles and Jews”

    Why is it that Sovoks like you can’t help but lie so often and so shamelessly?

    “ GDP and wages up, foreign debt down by early 2020”

    Before 2022 most of Donbass was under Ukie occupation

    In territory but not in population and industry. Only 1/3 of Donbas population and industry remained in Ukraine.

    So with 2/3 of Donbas gone, Ukraine’s economy did better than when it included all of Donbas.

    The industry there kept churning out products that Ukraine counted as its own. A lot was exported via Mariupol port, which Ukraine will never see again.

    The industry of only 1/3 of Donbas.

    Also, in case you did not notice that, now is February 2022, not 2020.

    In 2020 Covid affected Ukraine as it did other places but in the eve of the Russian invasion Ukraine had recovered from that economic dip.

    • Replies: @AnonfromTN
    @AP


    Only 1/3 of Donbas population and industry remained in Ukraine.
     
    Now, that’s not true. Typical sour grapes. More than half of Lugansk and Donetsk Peoples Republics were occupied by Ukies. Many large industrial plants were on Ukie-controlled territory. As examples I can name mammoth “Azovstal” and “imeni Illicha” in Mariupol, huge coxochemical plant in Avdeevka near Donetsk, plants producing salt (the largest in Europe) and champagne in Soledar, many large power stations (including the one in Shchastia that used to supply Lugansk with electricity), etc. Not to mention Mariupol port.

    None of these will be in Ukraine again. Just keep being a good svidomy Ukie and repeat current mantras of Ukie propaganda that Mariupol, Soledar, Ugledar, and Artemovsk are not that important.

    Sad for you thing is, the puppeteers are gradually coming to conclusion that Ukraine is not that important and it’s high time to bail out and switch to damage control mode (e.g., see a recent RAND corporation report).

    Replies: @sudden death, @AP

  873. @AP
    @AnonfromTN


    “It was just under 20% ethnic Ukrainian.”

    That sure makes it an Ukrainian city. LOL.
     

    Remember your lie though? You had written this: “Before the USSR took it, Ukrainians were not allowed to live in Lwow, it was populated by Poles and Jews”

    Why is it that Sovoks like you can’t help but lie so often and so shamelessly?


    “ GDP and wages up, foreign debt down by early 2020”

    Before 2022 most of Donbass was under Ukie occupation
     

    In territory but not in population and industry. Only 1/3 of Donbas population and industry remained in Ukraine.

    So with 2/3 of Donbas gone, Ukraine’s economy did better than when it included all of Donbas.


    The industry there kept churning out products that Ukraine counted as its own. A lot was exported via Mariupol port, which Ukraine will never see again.
     
    The industry of only 1/3 of Donbas.

    Also, in case you did not notice that, now is February 2022, not 2020.
     
    In 2020 Covid affected Ukraine as it did other places but in the eve of the Russian invasion Ukraine had recovered from that economic dip.

    Replies: @AnonfromTN

    Only 1/3 of Donbas population and industry remained in Ukraine.

    Now, that’s not true. Typical sour grapes. More than half of Lugansk and Donetsk Peoples Republics were occupied by Ukies. Many large industrial plants were on Ukie-controlled territory. As examples I can name mammoth “Azovstal” and “imeni Illicha” in Mariupol, huge coxochemical plant in Avdeevka near Donetsk, plants producing salt (the largest in Europe) and champagne in Soledar, many large power stations (including the one in Shchastia that used to supply Lugansk with electricity), etc. Not to mention Mariupol port.

    None of these will be in Ukraine again. Just keep being a good svidomy Ukie and repeat current mantras of Ukie propaganda that Mariupol, Soledar, Ugledar, and Artemovsk are not that important.

    Sad for you thing is, the puppeteers are gradually coming to conclusion that Ukraine is not that important and it’s high time to bail out and switch to damage control mode (e.g., see a recent RAND corporation report).

    • Replies: @sudden death
    @AnonfromTN


    None of these will be in Ukraine again.
     
    Too lazy to search, but it seems heard the same about Kherson or Liman and not that long ago;)

    Replies: @AnonfromTN

    , @AP
    @AnonfromTN


    Now, that’s not true. Typical sour grapes. More than half of Lugansk and Donetsk Peoples Republics were occupied by Ukies
     
    As I said, more than half of the land was controlled by Kiev but only 1/3 of the population and economy were. Kiev kept Mariupol (population 440,000) and Kramatorsk (population 150,000) but lost Donetsk (population 950,000), Luhansk (population 409,000), Makiivka (population 350,000), etc.

    Many large industrial plants were on Ukie-controlled territory. As examples I can name mammoth “Azovstal” and “imeni Illicha” in Mariupol, huge coxochemical plant in Avdeevka near Donetsk
     
    Indeed, about 1/3 were, and that includes what you listed. But 2/3 of the people and economic product were not.

    Replies: @AnonfromTN

  874. @AnonfromTN
    @AP


    Only 1/3 of Donbas population and industry remained in Ukraine.
     
    Now, that’s not true. Typical sour grapes. More than half of Lugansk and Donetsk Peoples Republics were occupied by Ukies. Many large industrial plants were on Ukie-controlled territory. As examples I can name mammoth “Azovstal” and “imeni Illicha” in Mariupol, huge coxochemical plant in Avdeevka near Donetsk, plants producing salt (the largest in Europe) and champagne in Soledar, many large power stations (including the one in Shchastia that used to supply Lugansk with electricity), etc. Not to mention Mariupol port.

    None of these will be in Ukraine again. Just keep being a good svidomy Ukie and repeat current mantras of Ukie propaganda that Mariupol, Soledar, Ugledar, and Artemovsk are not that important.

    Sad for you thing is, the puppeteers are gradually coming to conclusion that Ukraine is not that important and it’s high time to bail out and switch to damage control mode (e.g., see a recent RAND corporation report).

    Replies: @sudden death, @AP

    None of these will be in Ukraine again.

    Too lazy to search, but it seems heard the same about Kherson or Liman and not that long ago;)

    • Replies: @AnonfromTN
    @sudden death

    Save your comment. Reread it three months from now. Than reread it again in a year. If you are honest, post your conclusions at that time.

  875. @sudden death
    @AnonfromTN


    None of these will be in Ukraine again.
     
    Too lazy to search, but it seems heard the same about Kherson or Liman and not that long ago;)

    Replies: @AnonfromTN

    Save your comment. Reread it three months from now. Than reread it again in a year. If you are honest, post your conclusions at that time.

  876. @AnonfromTN
    @AP


    Only 1/3 of Donbas population and industry remained in Ukraine.
     
    Now, that’s not true. Typical sour grapes. More than half of Lugansk and Donetsk Peoples Republics were occupied by Ukies. Many large industrial plants were on Ukie-controlled territory. As examples I can name mammoth “Azovstal” and “imeni Illicha” in Mariupol, huge coxochemical plant in Avdeevka near Donetsk, plants producing salt (the largest in Europe) and champagne in Soledar, many large power stations (including the one in Shchastia that used to supply Lugansk with electricity), etc. Not to mention Mariupol port.

    None of these will be in Ukraine again. Just keep being a good svidomy Ukie and repeat current mantras of Ukie propaganda that Mariupol, Soledar, Ugledar, and Artemovsk are not that important.

    Sad for you thing is, the puppeteers are gradually coming to conclusion that Ukraine is not that important and it’s high time to bail out and switch to damage control mode (e.g., see a recent RAND corporation report).

    Replies: @sudden death, @AP

    Now, that’s not true. Typical sour grapes. More than half of Lugansk and Donetsk Peoples Republics were occupied by Ukies

    As I said, more than half of the land was controlled by Kiev but only 1/3 of the population and economy were. Kiev kept Mariupol (population 440,000) and Kramatorsk (population 150,000) but lost Donetsk (population 950,000), Luhansk (population 409,000), Makiivka (population 350,000), etc.

    Many large industrial plants were on Ukie-controlled territory. As examples I can name mammoth “Azovstal” and “imeni Illicha” in Mariupol, huge coxochemical plant in Avdeevka near Donetsk

    Indeed, about 1/3 were, and that includes what you listed. But 2/3 of the people and economic product were not.

    • Replies: @AnonfromTN
    @AP


    Luhansk (population 409,000), Makiivka (population 350,000)
     
    If you want to be punched in the face, pronounce city names that way in the presence of Lugansk and Makeevka residents. BTW, in Makeevka you might get punched in the face for just speaking Ukrainian: Ukraine keeps shelling it, indiscriminately killing civilians of all ages and both genders. Ukies routinely aim at purely civilian targets: residential houses, shops and markets, hospitals, schools, kindergartens, etc. Legally – war crimes. Psychologically – pure hatred and spite. Have no doubt, Donbass residents return hatred with a vengeance.

    However, you can only get to these cities via the RF territory, so it might be difficult for you to get punched in the face there.

    Replies: @AP

  877. @Yahya
    @songbird


    But what I do know about Egypt is that my relatives went there and gave food to beggar-children who seemed to rarely experience such good fortune, as to have a good meal. They were also slaughtering animals in alleyways.
     
    Well yes that’s true. In Egypt there is unfortunately severe widespread poverty. The statistics says 30% or so of Egyptians live below the poverty line; but of course we all know these “poverty lines” are notoriously vague and subject to change. So who knows what the real rate is; or how poverty can be defined precisely. Part of that can be blamed by gross corruption and governmental mismanagement; part of it on the irresponsible breeding of the poor; and most of it simply to the misfortune of having low levels of human capital and little natural resources.

    In Saudi Arabia the poverty rate is almost certainly less. But I don’t really get your point. You calling me an “oil Arab” makes about as much sense as calling a Russian “oil Slav”. In fact; a rich Russian is multiple times more likely to have made his gains in oil & gas; since the industry is privatized there unlike Saudi Arabia. But still; just doesn’t make sense to call a Russian who made his money in the tech industry an “oil Slav”.

    I think this ties in with your tendency to view everyone as avatars of their racial/ethnic group; instead of as individuals in their own right. For example you once expressed surprise at my having a negative opinion of Hitler, saying “I believe Arabs, when they think of Hitler, view him in a positive to neutral light. Has that changed?” As if I’m supposed to represent and conform to my ethnic group’s opinion instead of forming an individual one. Also your tendency to blame any black you come across for the welfare payments made to a minority of blacks. It’s a peculiar way of looking at the world.


    BTW, thought you said you were on some sort of scholarship? Tell me, what would it have come to if you had to pay it yourself? Or was that only your friends, and you were paying your own way?
     
    I was not; never said I was. My friends are mostly Egyptians who don’t have access to any scholarship either. Their parents paid for their college education. There are many Gulf and Med Arabs who are well-off enough, even by first world standards, to afford university without government aid. What’s so difficult for to understand about that?

    He was telling me that he majoring in grievance studies against my people to become a commissar and get in on the graft – and I was already paying for it.
     
    Well you didn’t mention it in your original comment. And I don’t believe you now; seems like a convenient excuse for insulting the guy.

    Put it all together now, in case you haven’t: he was doing that, despite his folks living the same distance from Boston as Europe is to sub-Sahara, only in the 1950s or even later. Wouldn’t have minded at all, if I were walking in Alabama, and he had merely insulted me, but none of those other things happened.
     
    Your trying to pull a trick by painting African-Americans in the North as invaders akin to illegal immigrants; when in reality they are American citizens who are within their right to live anywhere in American territory, north or south. I hesitate to speak for Americans; but the normative view is that it’s both normal and natural for American citizens to relocate anywhere in American territory; and many of them do, both white and non-white. In fact; this is a common theme in Great American novels; for example in John Steinbeck’s Mice & Men. The situation is not comparable to illegal Mexicans swimming across the Rio Grande. You are trying to make it so by treating blacks as “invaders” and “intruders”; in other words not really American citizens. But again; that’s not the normative view; and I’m happy to back it up with statistics if you don’t believe me.

    Though you like to paint blacks as newcomers and invaders; it is in fact you, the Irishman, who is the relative johnny-come-lately. Makes your language and viewpoints all the more hypocritical and egregious. As for calling the guy an “ape” and “gorilla” because of wealth transfer to blacks; again you are making him an avatar of his race; instead of treating him as an individual. You have difficulty understanding that people aren’t responsible for their group sins or misbehaviors. I’m quite sure you’d be offended if a WASP demanded all Irish be grateful for their prosperity in the US; and told you “my ancestors built the place which Irish monkeys like you are invading and defiling”. That’s unlikely to happen in the Current Year; but it could very well have happened 150 years ago. No human being with any dignity would tell the WASP “well okay, Mr. Johnson, I apologize for invading your country; and voting for Democrats and their pro-migrant, anti-native agenda. I’m just going to know my place from now on and not presume to ask you to fill out a survey”.

    Replies: @songbird

    And I don’t believe you now

    Oh, so you think he was after an engineering degree, and it was part of his homework to survey Euros about racism?

    [MORE]

    seems like a convenient excuse for insulting the guy.

    In actuality, I was very polite to him (though not so polite as to let him make me be late for an appointment). Only a crazy person would have insulted him. I did not insult him at all, but merely lampooned the behavior here. He was deserving of scorn and not emulation.

    Also your tendency to blame any black you come across for the welfare payments made to a minority of blacks. It’s a peculiar way of looking at the world.

    In the specific case, he referenced a public college, subsidized by the state, so, yes, I was paying for it – the study of blood libel against my people. I attended a graduation there once, one of the professors or administrators said some really nasty stuff (celebrating the shrinking number of Euros, and that was years ago.)

    instead of treating him as an individual.

    That is what Jordan Peterson advocates. BTW, do you know that he recently came out for regime change in Iran?

    What’s so difficult for to understand about that?

    I honestly don’t get it. It’s not a deal, but a ripoff. Why would you spend that money? Are there not English language schools in the Middle East that would be much cheaper? Do you really need credentials over there? Wouldn’t it be better to invest in your own country?

    In America, people only go to college because they feel they are forced to. Nobody considers it a good deal. At least, nobody sane. It is especially strange to me that Arabs should go when considering the obvious decadence there.

    You are trying to make it so by treating blacks as “invaders” and “intruders”; in other words not really American citizens. But again; that’s not the normative view

    That last is superfluous. This is Unz.

    Before that, you have employed the word “citizen.” In other words, you appear to be making a legal argument.

    The heavily pregnant Nigerians who took flights to Ireland to exploit a loophole in the peace process (BTW, I wonder who told them about it) have moved there and gone on the dole and you can’t send them back. They are there for ten thousand years, and you’ve got to deal with the problems they create and eat the costs and insults forever, or until they outbreed you. Does this sound like justice? Your argument appears to be indistinguishable from this one – at least, if you continue to employ the word “citizen”, and don’t go back to the drawing board.

    The situation is not comparable to illegal Mexicans swimming across the Rio Grande.

    They don’t need to swim across, at all. Where they cross, it’s like a mud puddle because so much water is drawn off for agricultural purposes. I’ve seen deeper brooks.

    I’m quite sure you’d be offended if a WASP demanded all Irish be grateful for their prosperity in the US

    Not me personally. AP, certainly, if you replaced the second demonym, with God knows what ethnicity. (likely influences his feelings against nationalism)

    I apologize for invading your country; and voting for Democrats and their pro-migrant, anti-native agenda.

    Obviously, I have my biases, but I don’t favor this line of argument that some say that the “Irish ruined America.” It doesn’t seem very plausible to me for a number of reasons, which I won’t delve into there. But, if it were true, it would hardly be an argument for even more immigration at a much higher genetic distance, and when there is a welfare state. Or for anyone to embrace blacks and treat them under the rubric of radical universalism, even if this was Africa.

    Though you like to paint blacks as newcomers and invaders; it is in fact you, the Irishman, who is the relative johnny-come-lately.

    The premiss that blacks were founding stock, while the Irish were not is tenuous to say the least.

    The 1619 Project doesn’t want you to know this, but a lot of American blacks actually came here, well after the Declaration of Independence. After the invention of the cotton gin (which increased the demand for slavery). And also after the ban on slave imports in 1807 (partly meant to limit the number of blacks and their spread to new areas), they were smuggled in. Meanwhile, there were numerous, important Irish officers in the American Revolutionary War. Here’s a list of some notables, though a few were actually Anglo, most of the list are not:
    https://www.irishamerica.com/2016/03/famous-irish-of-the-american-revolution/

    Oh, I’ll grant you can construct a temporal argument about when my specific ancestors arrived in the country, but I think it would be non-starter on HBD grounds. The only reason people ever touch the temporal factor is that they want to appear to be non-racists. But to reduce it to its core: what does it matter if someone moves from Plymouth England to Plymouth, MA, USA in 1620 or 2022? It doesn’t really matter very much, at least, so long as they are the right ethnic group (not necessarily true today.)

    Not only is the genetic distance between Ireland and Britain less than that found within practically every other major country in Europe – not to mention elsewhere, but when my father’s folks came it was still considered the same country. Ireland had MPs in parliament in London. Irish immigrants had to renounce allegiance to Queen Victoria.

    • Replies: @Yahya
    @songbird


    That is what Jordan Peterson advocates. BTW, do you know that he recently came out for regime change in Iran?
     
    Is the second sentence supposed to follow from the first? Or is this just a tangential topic?

    Jordan Peterson is a clown. But I support regime change in Iran too; though not if it's violent. I also take a Burkean view of revolutions so my support for overthrow is circumspect and conditional. But ultimately it's the business of Iranians.


    I honestly don’t get it. It’s not a deal, but a ripoff. Why would you spend that money? Are there not English language schools in the Middle East that would be much cheaper? Do you really need credentials over there? Wouldn’t it be better to invest in your own country?
     
    It is indeed a rip-off. My parents forced me to. I initially objected to going, telling them that I could better invest the money in the stock market; and that some research indicates most of what is taught in university is soon forgotten. But my parents are conformists. You go to university because everyone else in your milieu does.

    University wasn't all too useless though. Made a few friends whom I plan to visit sometime soon. Also liked the experience of living somewhere else for a period of time. Key thing I learnt was, if you are a well-off 3rd worlder; it's not all that better to live in a First World country (with a few exceptions like homosexuals or aspiring scientist or whatever). Tbh I already knew that to some extent; since I choose to live in Egypt not Saudi Arabia. But I thought maybe the West would be different. It wasn't. Human relationships are more important for happiness than material surroundings.


    It is especially strange to me that Arabs should go when considering the obvious decadence there.
     
    My experience is that the decadence is limited to the social sciences and related subjects. The practical courses I was enrolled in were mostly normal. I did however take a few liberal arts courses; and some of them were indeed comically woke. Almost like a self-parody; I couldn't believe the professor and students would say these things unironically.

    Sorry to say songbird; but it's mostly American students who are susceptible to being influenced by the decadence. International students just shake their heads and move on. Me and my Arab friend group there used to mock the sort of things we heard and saw in the classroom during some of our hangouts. One of my friends' economics professor was fired for telling an Asian-American girl "you're Chinese, so you should know [something related to the Chinese economy]". The professor appealed to his students to plead with the college admin on his behalf. Didn't work. Quite sad really.


    In the specific case, he referenced a public college, subsidized by the state, so, yes, I was paying for it
     
    How much is your share of the bill; 25 cents? Maybe 10% more? How do you know his parents' tax bills weren't sufficient to pay for his expenses? Do you know anything about them? They could be high-flying lawyers for all you know (rare, but possible. I had a black law professor in college). Or they could be ordinary middle-class people, earning a decent sum to pay enough taxes to fund their kids education. That's very likely; considering he's going to college instead of languishing in a prison cell for drug dealing or murder.

    The heavily pregnant Nigerians who took flights to Ireland to exploit a loophole in the peace process (BTW, I wonder who told them about it) have moved there and gone on the dole and you can’t send them back.
     
    I agree that the concept of citizenism is problematic in the context of Ireland. It's possible and indeed was the case that Ireland is an ethno-state for the Irish; so recent newcomers can legitimately be viewed as invaders or intruders. But sorry; the idea just doesn't hold water for African-Americans. Again; I hesitate to speak for Americans, but the normative view is that old stock blacks are definitively American. Good luck convincing anyone but a handful of WNs otherwise.

    Not me personally.
     
    Well you say this because a) you are not in a position of direct threat, b) you identify with WASPs and view yourself as more "European" than "Irish" and c) you seem to accept being demeaned more than the average person (much to my disappointment, I would've enjoyed it more if you fought back when I insult you). But suffice it to say that no Irishman worth his salt would've accepted being told by a WASP that he is an uneducated Mick; scrounging off the work his ancestors had done to create America; and that drunkards like him should be sent back to Ireland.

    In fact no-one would accept such treatment; and a good portion of onlookers would revile the WASP for these sentiments. To tell someone "you are defiling the place my ancestors had built" automatically puts them in an inferior and subordinate position. It provokes revilement because you are attempting to leverage something your ancestors/ethnic group had done to establish superiority over another individual. Nevermind the fact that such statements may not be adherent to reality; insofar as almost no-one has an accurate record of what their ancestors had built; much less that of another person's ancestors.

    But even if they were adherent to reality; it's fundamentally unjust to hold the notion that someone from another race should know their place; because they happen to be born to a certain ethnic/racial group. Imagine the gall of telling an Asian-American entrepreneur that he is defiling and invading the "place my ancestors built" when you are some insurance agent or in an otherwise mediocre occupation. Again, you would be attempting to leverage you ancestors (perceived) achievements to establish superiority; when you yourself have done nothing to merit this sentiment of superiority. Fact of the matter is, if you or your ancestors had never lived; America would be pretty much the same as it is. To pretend otherwise is to engage in narcissism and folly.


    but I don’t favor this line of argument that some say that the “Irish ruined America.”
     
    Well Irish-Americans like Ted Kennedy played a major role in passing the Immigration and Nationality Act of 1965; which I presume you think is one of the defining pieces of legislation to have ruined in America. So you have to own up to it.

    According to The Irish Times, Irish-Americans are solid Democrats: "In the 2016 presidential election, 92 per cent of respondents voted: 47 per cent voted for Clinton, 27 per cent for Trump, and 20 per cent refused to indicate their vote. More generally, 41 per cent signified as Democrat while 23 per cent selected Republican. " I would imagine your group; that is Irish-Americans in the Northeast; are even more solidly Democrat; and may be regarded as the key Democratic constituents in the area; alongside blacks and Jews.


    The 1619 Project doesn’t want you to know this, but a lot of American blacks actually came here, well after the Declaration of Independence.
     
    How many is "a lot"? Do you really think; if we trace back the ancestry of African and Irish Americans; that your people would on average be of older stock than blacks? You've already admitted that you ancestors came in very recently. Somehow I doubt most blacks are descended from 19th century arrivals.

    Again, just very hypocritical to call them invaders and intruders.

    Replies: @Emil Nikola Richard, @songbird

  878. @AP
    @AnonfromTN


    Now, that’s not true. Typical sour grapes. More than half of Lugansk and Donetsk Peoples Republics were occupied by Ukies
     
    As I said, more than half of the land was controlled by Kiev but only 1/3 of the population and economy were. Kiev kept Mariupol (population 440,000) and Kramatorsk (population 150,000) but lost Donetsk (population 950,000), Luhansk (population 409,000), Makiivka (population 350,000), etc.

    Many large industrial plants were on Ukie-controlled territory. As examples I can name mammoth “Azovstal” and “imeni Illicha” in Mariupol, huge coxochemical plant in Avdeevka near Donetsk
     
    Indeed, about 1/3 were, and that includes what you listed. But 2/3 of the people and economic product were not.

    Replies: @AnonfromTN

    Luhansk (population 409,000), Makiivka (population 350,000)

    If you want to be punched in the face, pronounce city names that way in the presence of Lugansk and Makeevka residents. BTW, in Makeevka you might get punched in the face for just speaking Ukrainian: Ukraine keeps shelling it, indiscriminately killing civilians of all ages and both genders. Ukies routinely aim at purely civilian targets: residential houses, shops and markets, hospitals, schools, kindergartens, etc. Legally – war crimes. Psychologically – pure hatred and spite. Have no doubt, Donbass residents return hatred with a vengeance.

    However, you can only get to these cities via the RF territory, so it might be difficult for you to get punched in the face there.

    • Replies: @AP
    @AnonfromTN


    “Luhansk (population 409,000), Makiivka (population 350,000)”

    If you want to be punched in the face, pronounce city names that way in the presence of Lugansk
     
    Don’t they pronounce g as h in Luhansk, as in southern Russia?

    BTW, in Makeevka you might get punched in the face for just speaking Ukrainian: Ukraine keeps shelling it, indiscriminately killing civilians of all ages and both genders
     
    And now people in Kharkiv hate Russia like that.

    Replies: @AnonfromTN

  879. @Beckow
    @LatW


    ...those missiles are not even built yet. However, such missiles could serve as a deterrent and may actually be good and could have kept the war at bay, if Ukraine had them.

     

    The word "yet" is the key to you argument and the major reason you and I disagree. Yes, a lot of things were 'not yet' and you base your rather idealistic expectations about Russia's behavior on that. But we should agree that a major component of intelligence is the ability to anticipate...anticipation is a key to high IQ. Based on that, Russia simply correctly anticipated that if Kiev post-Maidan and Nato openly declared A, B, C, D...that eventually there will be also E, F, G...yes, not yet, but inevitably so. You can't accept, as if you were caught in a pretense and hoped that Russia won't see or won't call you on it - well, they did and we have a war. But a quick look in the mirror would tell you why there is a war.

    Your more pompous argument that Russia has no extraterritorial rights, no right to security, no say in how its Russian ethnics are treated, no say in whether Georgia or Ukraine join an aggressive anti-Russia military pact...well, I am trying to be polite, but that is simply nonsense: non-actionable, out-of-context bulls..t that people caught doing bad stuff and lying about it always do. Please, drop it, it is embarrassing. Of course, Russia has and will have say in those matters - as will US or UK, France or China in their neighborhood.


    Let me remind you that your favorite alliance, the one you say should plop itself on Russia's porch and Russia should shut up, bombed about half dozen countries, invaded, killed probably close to million civilians, lied about it, giggled about 'collateral damage', destroyed a major European city (Beograd). etc...your complete inability to even address that is puzzling and it makes what you argue feel like a junior-high shouting contest. Try to be more serious, we have AP for slogans and Mr. Hacks for feminine emotions, I expect more from you :)...

    ...what they could have done – strengthen themselves from within. Place their missiles strategically (which they already did in many locations). Not waste resources by sending money out of the country. Reflect internally and understand that 1991 was final.
     
    Read what you said, it literally amounts to nothing. Money leaves Russia totally unrelated to this war, it always has. The resources have been finally restricted - we will see how that works out. And "place their missiles...", what the hell is that supposed to mean? They already have them in place, you talk complete military nonsense...the point is that if someone (Nato) is about to place their missiles a few minutes from your capitol, you don't sit there and say "well, we can also strike them"...did US sit back in Cuba crisis? could Russia place missiles in Ireland?

    And "strengthen within" ? Wow, you hide behind cliches. Why doesn't Latvia or Ukraine, or even US and UK work on strengthening within instead of parading missiles on Russia's borders? You seem to have a complete inability to see the others as having equal rights...in this case Russia. That usually translates as a sign of hatred, either acknowledged or hidden. And that won't get you far. Try to strengthen yourself, abandoning hatreds and double standards would be a good first step. I see Russia as all others, neither better nor worse, they have as much right to security as you do, or as US does. Accept that and we can move forward.

    Well, at least we agree on Pavel and his type :)...Having met him in person, my expectations are very low (he drinks quite a bit), but he is soft-spoken, calm and looks 'presidential'...that's why he beat the business-commie, Babis is too hectic, too action-oriented and eludes an air of unreliability. But it makes literally zero difference to the war.

    Replies: @LatW

    The word “yet” is the key to you argument and the major reason you and I disagree. Yes, a lot of things were ‘not yet’ and you base your rather idealistic expectations about Russia’s behavior on that. But we should agree that a major component of intelligence is the ability to anticipate

    Let me first clarify about the missiles. When I was writing it, I was thinking of the Neptune missile that Ukraine had been working on, not of anything that NATO would want to place there (it was out of the question). The Neptune may or may not be finished or even used in the war (don’t know a 100%), but it would be a home grown weapon and not a NATO missile. That’s why I said, “yet”, not because I was anticipating for NATO to eventually set up a lot of armaments in Ukraine, but because such programs were started by Ukraine but not completed (this must have triggered Russia’s attention). Without war there wouldn’t be any kind of significant Western made armament in Ukraine since NATO was very slow and reluctant.

    However, your point still stands in that Russia plans a 100 years ahead (Russia is also very hawkish about even small military movements in her vicinity). With the long term view in mind, yes, the situation was getting somewhat undesirable for Russia. I admitted this a few years back on this very forum, that most likely if the NATO accession were to become a reality for Ukraine, that Russia would take military action, it was just a question of the scope of that action. But this doesn’t take away from my point that they had to means to protect themselves without a large scale war such as now.

    Recently I posted an interview with Arestovych where he discussed this and stated very clearly – “we can’t pull off neutrality, our only way to NATO is through a large war”. Not sure he realized how big this war would get, but there is another video of him, a much earlier one, either from 2008 or 2011, where he seems to be predicting a large scale occupation of Southern Ukraine.

    [MORE]

    We have admitted this. But the goal of the Ukrainian nationalists is not NATO per se, not as an end goal. The goal is establishing real (REAL, not Budapest Memorandum like) security guarantees for Ukraine. Not just for the sake of Ukrainians, but also for Europe, because if we allow a large state (or any state for that matter) that is so close to Europe to be demolished just like that, then that brings major consequences for everyone.

    But the missile issue actually brings us to the crux of the matter and why this whole thing unraveled. Something that wasn’t talked about in full seriousness for 30 years (with the exception of very few EE politicians, which is actually pretty scandalous). That there is a huge security vacuum. In 1991 everyone disarmed, Ukraine was, as we see now, treacherously disarmed by outsiders from both sides. However, very quickly Russia restarted their MIC, fought wars quite actively. Russia was preparing to fight but we weren’t (NATO accession is a serious but insufficient step). Ukraine always had an MIC but only started taking it seriously after 2014. So these issues from 1991 were not resolved in principle. To resolve them politically may not have been enough, because it is Russia’s way to take what they can, when they can (which is when they feel like it). Thus some kind of a military deterrent had to be established (but wasn’t).

    Your more pompous argument that Russia has no extraterritorial rights

    Let’s use correct language here. Extraterritorial rights mostly apply to diplomatic immunity, diplomatic missions in general and such. There are universal human rights, European human rights and there is national sovereignty. The nation has sovereignty to implement the protection of these rights in a way that is suitable for the given nation (every nation has different circumstances), to the best of their ability in order to observe basic human rights principles. In Ukraine’s case, I’m afraid we are way past this point, as right now the right to life of Ukrainian’s themselves is violated daily.

    You might want to tread carefully here, because if we use this principle in an absolutist way, soon enough all kinds of non-European groups will spring up in Europe demanding “extraterritorial rights” and what not. We are already seeing that in Northern Europe and the UK. The Eastern Europeans should avoid that route at all costs.

    Again, I believe that neither of these two, NATO or the changed situation for Russian speakers (which wasn’t even immediate, although the threat of it was), is the main cause of the war. Those are definitely triggers and points of major irritation or provocation (in Russias opinion), but the main reason is much bigger – decoupling of Ukraine from the Russian space, the change in Ukraine’s geopolitical orientation, the discarding of the post-Soviet Ukrainian identity in favor of the original, God given Ukrainian national identity.

    If it were just about “Russian speakers’ rights”, Russia would go out of her way to salvage as many as possible.

    Russia would not have abandoned them in 2014. What Russia in fact did, is come in, help instigate the uprising, rile people up, arm people who were already unsatisfied with the changing situation (rightfully, from their POV), come in for one or two operations (Northern Wind, Illovaisk) and then not finish the job and let the problem fester. There is a lot of talk and regret about this among Russian imperialist nationalists.

    And then now, to come back and kill so many? Do you realize that most of those dispossessed and killed, maimed and tortured are Russophones? Yes, many Ukrainian and many Russian speaking Ukrainian nationalists… but they are still carriers of the language. Their children won’t be that way anymore.

    Anyway, to wage a war on population… in a manner that we’re seeing now, kind of cancels all those points out anyway.

    no right to security

    Where did I say Russia has no right to security? They have plenty of territory and resources from which to project their force, if needed. They are not going to have what they had prior to 1991, period. They need to accept that. They already have Kaliningrad which is more than what they’ve historically EVER had and what they could not have conquered on their own, they have it because the Anglos helped them. And they have Crimea. And Belarus. That’s a lot! And it’s plenty to secure oneself. I would imagine that that’s a lot of work already.

    They have actually compromised their own security via this “SMO”. They are less secure now. You start messing with such large borders, it can go either way (btw, did you notice how previously, even when they were aggressive, they used to take much smaller bites out of other countries, but now they attacked the capital and took on a population of 35M + millions in diaspora!!!). This is a gamble, if they don’t succeed, and if there is an internal shake up of some sort, their security will be even more compromised.

    In the McGregor video that was posted above, he refers to Manchukuo as an undesirable outcome for Americans in case of instability around Russia’s periphery. It is quite telling that Americans fear this. If the RF lose a major war (such as this one), all kinds of things can happen and it will be their own doing! Even if it doesn’t happen, if the possibility of potential chaos rises from 0.1% to 2%, that is already compromised security.

    Of course, Russia has and will have say in those matters – as will US or UK, France or China in their neighborhood.

    I don’t now about China, but those countries do not use their “co-ethnics” as a means to destabilize other countries and as pretexts to invade other countries. That completely changes the whole equation because you’re not acting in good spirit.

    your complete inability to even address that is puzzling

    Well, when did NATO last have a major operation that destroyed a country’s capital, especially on the European continent, that caused millions of refugees, hundreds of thousands killed? I’m not saying NATO or certain groups of countries within NATO did things right, just when has such a major invasion taken place last? I’d say the last most horrific event is Syria but it’s different there (several parties are ravaging one country there).

    Money leaves Russia totally unrelated to this war, it always has.

    And this is supposed to be good or even normalized? If Russia kept her money and used it to improve, they could create a fantastic Candyland that all the neighbors would marvel and the neighbors would stop viewing Russia with contempt. This would mollify things and reduce bad feelings. They were already on track for that, btw, because the last 5 or so years before Covid and the war, were prosperous everywhere, in Central Eastern Europe and in Russia, too.

    And “place their missiles…“, what the hell is that supposed to mean?

    Exactly what I wrote. There were no Iskander in Kaliningrad for decades, but since just a few years ago there are (prior to 2014, btw). In the south, around the Black Sea, it’s similar now and now the security of the Black Sea states is compromised. The overall picture is much much worse than it was.

    Why doesn’t Latvia or Ukraine, or even US and UK work on strengthening within instead of parading missiles on Russia’s borders?

    Let me clarify – Ukraine and Latvia should strengthen themselves (by taking Israel or Finland as examples), then the US or UK will not be as needed (although the UK will always be relevant, that relationship will grow).

    You seem to have a complete inability to see the others as having equal rights…in this case Russia.

    As I already said – “rights” are not given on a platter, one has to assert their “rights” (let’s be honest here, not rights but power and domination) intelligently. Once you start using outward violence, all kinds of unpredictable things can happen. As happened in this case. The human factor can be very volatile and we see that the human factor employed here turned out more volatile than was assumed (Ukrainian fighting spirit, support from Western public, corruption in RF, bailing of a million potential Russian conscripts, even rise of private military companies which are not as stable as regular military organizations, not to mention the human factor in high level politicians, diplomats, etc).

    I see Russia as all others, neither better nor worse, they have as much right to security as you do, or as US does. Accept that and we can move forward.

    Talk that way about Hungarians, please. Or Germans. Or Anglos. Even if those issues may be resolved. You see Russia very differently than those who engage with her. Engage directly with a much larger, aggressive high IQ white, then we can talk. Then you can show me how brave and chill and “indifferent” you are.

    Well, at least we agree on Pavel and his type 🙂

    I didn’t say he was tarnished, I just described how some of these post-Communist issues come back to haunt us. I’d prefer to keep an open mind in his case.

    Having met him in person, my expectations are very low (he drinks quite a bit)

    You saw him imbibe a little too much at a state banquet…? LOL. Yea, it’s not great for a head of state to imbibe, but he looks like he can handle it. Btw, a photo came out of him hiking somewhere in the mountains with him carrying a large keg of beer on his back. I thought that was an awesome photo, bet then, for a second I thought, wait a minute, he is taking all that beer with him on a hiking trip?? Well, I’m sure he shared it with his buddies. Haha!

    but he is soft-spoken, calm and looks ‘presidential‘

    Yes, he looks very calm and mellow. He could build a dignified image. You’re saying there will be zero difference, maybe. But I have a feeling he will throw out some pro-Atlanticist tricks here and there, like, he called Taiwan as one of the first things. You’ll probably say that it’s just unneeded “noise”…

    • Replies: @Beckow
    @LatW


    if the NATO accession were to become a reality for Ukraine, that Russia would take military action, it was just a question of the scope of that action. But this doesn’t take away from my point that they had to means to protect themselves without a large scale war such as now.
     
    What were those means? A smaller war? Or to line up endless missiles on their border with Ukraine and wait for the spark? You are really not saying anything with your meandering evasive discourse. Russia said that Kiev in Nato - with all that would eventually mean - is a red line, a war. That's what we have. The scale is up to the warriors, as always...remember 'shock-and-awe' over Baghdad or 'we will bomb you to Middle Ages' over Serbia? You can't be that dense, why would you deny that Nato did that?

    Russia plans a 100 years ahead (Russia is also very hawkish about even small military movements in her vicinity). With the long term view in mind, yes, the situation was getting somewhat undesirable for Russia.
     
    Where did you come with 100 years? A rhetoric refuge because you lost the argument? How about 20 years or 5 years? It doesn't take long to arm a country and threaten its neighbor. Let's also drop the casual anti-Russian racism, countries like US, China, UK, France plan for long term, even 100 years.

    when did NATO last have a major operation that destroyed a country’s capital, especially on the European continent
     
    Serbia. Beograd is a lot closer to core Europe then Kiev. You can't be serious pretending that you don't know it. Nato attacked Serbia, and then Iraq, Syria, Libya...millions of refugees, maybe a million dead, destroyed countries. Don't tell us that you missed that - but your whole writing falls apart since you pretend that it didn't happen. Address it, or stop telling nonsense - "first time blabla..."...I am puzzled why would you try to do this.

    Regarding military vacuum post-1991 in EE: it was a good thing! we grew, people invested, we had better economies. Nobody needed to start confronting Russia, pulling Ukraine (or Georgia) into Nato, preparing for the next conflict. Whether Russia be rearming in the last 10-15 years contributed to it is a classical chicken-and-egg dilemma. But we all know that without Nato threats - and some really nutty anti-Russian nationalist fanatics - nothing would happen.


    Where did I say Russia has no right to security? They have plenty of territory and resources from which to project their force... They already have Kaliningrad
     
    So does US, Canada, even France. Would you suggest to them to be cool with all that hinterland nobody can attack them? Again your double-standards. Large territory also means that you have more to defend - so that whole argument is rather irrelevant to what we are discussing.

    Russia paid with millions of lives in WW2 to get time Kaliningrad (Poland for some reason grabbed an equal piece of the old Prussia and nobody ever wants to mention that - kind of like you don't like to mention the Nato attack on Serbia.) Anglos had nothing to do with it, stop re-writing WW2 history.


    Russian national rights...
     
    You are seem to be blind to recent history: would France allow French speakers in Belgium to be oppressed? Did UK leave its "Anglos" to their fate in Ulster? Etc...Nato waged a brutal war for the "extraterritorial rights" of Albanians in Kosovo and Moslems in Bosnia. Do you really not know any of this?

    Finally the Pavel's unfortunate call to Taiwan - the first one by a third country in decades: he is guided to create havoc, to push the boundaries. That is neither relevant to most Czechs not smart. Given that he is no role on policy - he is 'ceremonial' - we will probably get a lot of these random kicks. They mean nothing and they undermine his reputation as a calmer person who gets along. But we will see, if he does a lot of these, his popularity - and influence - will wane. Czechs are a lot of things, outspoken, arrogant, but they never engage in pointless heroism or wars. Pavel knows this so he will adjust.

    Replies: @Emil Nikola Richard, @LatW

  880. @Ivashka the fool
    @LatW

    I think the pic is from one of the plays of Kvartal 95 that they might have done together, both are actors after all. And of course given the "homocentric" focus that shpana used to have, where you had to always emphasize that you're as straight as a 2"×4" for fear of being put down and ending up a petukh, it inflames the imagination of that very types that "can repeat". Again, Freudian much. Anyways, stupid people are stupid (being a Fool, I am an expert in such matters). End of story.



    The word gopnik originates from Piter in the early twentieth century, and yes the local shpana was bad, especially the Ligovo neighborhood gangs where Pynya grew up. He is not lying about his tough upbringing. But one of the things I remember of my teenage interactions with these types, was that they preyed upon the weak. When they met with enough resistance, they're usually gave up. They were basically sociopathic bullies.

    My own Moscow neighborhood was quite bad, not as bad as Lyubertsy or Ligovo in Piter, but it was also infested with enough nasty shpana some of whom ended up street thugs and racketeers in the mafia later. They mostly finished their life very badly: alcoholic addiction, drugs, STDs, prison times and suicides. I am glad that even though I interacted with them quite often, I have never been too close to be involved in their petty crimes and incessant bullying of others. Of course my family was intellectuals, not proles, and I ended up leaving my neighborhood school to go to a school specialized in French closer to downtown Moscow, so that helped putting some distance between me and them.

    Yes, the video clip is by young Russians born and raised in Latvia. With a little luck once this all disgusting situation resolves itself, these young people will have a good and positive life. They look healthy and they still listen to Tsoï / Kino, good kids.

    https://youtu.be/wKxYPPXwZQQ

    When it was the first anniversary of his death, I went to Piter, joined my cousin there ans we visited his grave, then spent the evening and the night at the place where he worked as a fireman in an old building and that was called Kamchatka. There were people from all around the USSR, Baltic kids too and some Ukrainians I drank with. Victor was very respected and loved by many among us because his songs were about our life and we could easily self-identify with the lyrics.

    May he rest in peace.

    Replies: @AP, @LatW, @LatW

    I think the pic is from one of the plays of Kvartal 95 that they might have done together, both are actors after all.

    This is clearly a fake, a basic image search shows that. In 1999, Arestovych was in the military academy, highly doubtful he could’ve made it to the States in that year, very few travelled back in those years. They both looked much younger during those years than on that pic.

    The word gopnik originates from Piter in the early twentieth century, and yes the local shpana was bad, especially the Ligovo neighborhood gangs where Pynya grew up.

    Well, that part about Pynya’s background is understandable, later they took judo classes to deal with it. But I heard their coach was a gangster. And there are rumors that Pynya later hung out with Leningrad gangsters. Understandably, at that time you had to to some extent. You had to fight them with their methods.

    But one of the things I remember of my teenage interactions with these types, was that they preyed upon the weak. When they met with enough resistance, they’re usually gave up. They were basically sociopathic bullies.

    Of course, they preyed upon the weak! In Riga, several of them in a group also enjoyed attacking one person (usually one Latvian guy). And, yes, they do back down when you express strength and resolve. I have seen a Latvian guy deescalate after a couple of shpana called out to him and tried to harass him. He didn’t even look in their direction but kept walking and calmly and sternly told them to be quiet in Russian. And they shut up. He did it purely with his demeanor.

    Of course my family was intellectuals, not proles, and I ended up leaving my neighborhood school to go to a school specialized in French closer to downtown Moscow, so that helped putting some distance between me and them.

    That’s wonderful! You got the best of both worlds. 🙂

    [MORE]

    With a little luck once this all disgusting situation resolves itself, these young people will have a good and positive life. They look healthy and they still listen to Tsoï / Kino, good kids.

    Who knows about the future, but the children and youths in the Baltics are quite healthy and well taken care of. Things are more strict than back in the late 90s, early 2000s when one could purchase cigarettes easily even as a teenager, that was clamped down quite a while ago. Btw, the elderly Russians get decent medical care, too (the policlinic for free services is always full of them and it’s decent level care).

    then spent the evening and the night at the place where he worked as a fireman in an old building and that was called Kamchatka.

    That is really cool. Cool name.

    There were people from all around the USSR, Baltic kids too and some Ukrainians I drank with. Victor was very respected and loved by many among us because his songs were about our life and we could easily self-identify with the lyrics.

    He was popular in the Baltics, too, of course. RIP.

    But I’d say, Akvarium was even more popular, I had a close friend who was just obsessed with BG. She would always wait for his concerts and post his lyrics everywhere.

  881. @AnonfromTN
    @AP


    Luhansk (population 409,000), Makiivka (population 350,000)
     
    If you want to be punched in the face, pronounce city names that way in the presence of Lugansk and Makeevka residents. BTW, in Makeevka you might get punched in the face for just speaking Ukrainian: Ukraine keeps shelling it, indiscriminately killing civilians of all ages and both genders. Ukies routinely aim at purely civilian targets: residential houses, shops and markets, hospitals, schools, kindergartens, etc. Legally – war crimes. Psychologically – pure hatred and spite. Have no doubt, Donbass residents return hatred with a vengeance.

    However, you can only get to these cities via the RF territory, so it might be difficult for you to get punched in the face there.

    Replies: @AP

    “Luhansk (population 409,000), Makiivka (population 350,000)”

    If you want to be punched in the face, pronounce city names that way in the presence of Lugansk

    Don’t they pronounce g as h in Luhansk, as in southern Russia?

    BTW, in Makeevka you might get punched in the face for just speaking Ukrainian: Ukraine keeps shelling it, indiscriminately killing civilians of all ages and both genders

    And now people in Kharkiv hate Russia like that.

    • Replies: @AnonfromTN
    @AP


    Don’t they pronounce g as h in Luhansk, as in southern Russia?
     
    Residents of Donbass and Southern Russia pronounce g in their specific way, but it by no means sounds like h. No Lugansk resident would ever write the name of their city using Roman letters as “Luhansk”, they would write “Lugansk”, as they pronounce it.

    And now people in Kharkiv hate Russia like that.
     
    Russian missiles never target civilians, they target troops, military installations, plants that produce or repair weapons and ammo, electric power-generating and distributing plants, and some railway stations (rarely). No Russian rocket ever hit working hospital, school, or kindergarten, in sharp contrast to Ukie criminals.

    It was the same in Lugansk before local freedom fighters kicked Ukie scum far enough from the city. Now Lugansk is safe, although there you clearly see that the war is going on, in contrast to Moscow and other Russian cities, where no signs that the country is at war are visible. This is my first-hand knowledge: I visited Lugansk, Moscow, and Penza in October, 2022.

    Replies: @AP

  882. @songbird
    @Yahya


    And I don’t believe you now
     
    Oh, so you think he was after an engineering degree, and it was part of his homework to survey Euros about racism?

    seems like a convenient excuse for insulting the guy.
     
    In actuality, I was very polite to him (though not so polite as to let him make me be late for an appointment). Only a crazy person would have insulted him. I did not insult him at all, but merely lampooned the behavior here. He was deserving of scorn and not emulation.

    Also your tendency to blame any black you come across for the welfare payments made to a minority of blacks. It’s a peculiar way of looking at the world.
     
    In the specific case, he referenced a public college, subsidized by the state, so, yes, I was paying for it - the study of blood libel against my people. I attended a graduation there once, one of the professors or administrators said some really nasty stuff (celebrating the shrinking number of Euros, and that was years ago.)

    instead of treating him as an individual.
     
    That is what Jordan Peterson advocates. BTW, do you know that he recently came out for regime change in Iran?

    What’s so difficult for to understand about that?
     
    I honestly don't get it. It's not a deal, but a ripoff. Why would you spend that money? Are there not English language schools in the Middle East that would be much cheaper? Do you really need credentials over there? Wouldn't it be better to invest in your own country?

    In America, people only go to college because they feel they are forced to. Nobody considers it a good deal. At least, nobody sane. It is especially strange to me that Arabs should go when considering the obvious decadence there.

    You are trying to make it so by treating blacks as “invaders” and “intruders”; in other words not really American citizens. But again; that’s not the normative view
     
    That last is superfluous. This is Unz.

    Before that, you have employed the word "citizen." In other words, you appear to be making a legal argument.

    The heavily pregnant Nigerians who took flights to Ireland to exploit a loophole in the peace process (BTW, I wonder who told them about it) have moved there and gone on the dole and you can't send them back. They are there for ten thousand years, and you've got to deal with the problems they create and eat the costs and insults forever, or until they outbreed you. Does this sound like justice? Your argument appears to be indistinguishable from this one - at least, if you continue to employ the word "citizen", and don't go back to the drawing board.

    The situation is not comparable to illegal Mexicans swimming across the Rio Grande.
     
    They don't need to swim across, at all. Where they cross, it's like a mud puddle because so much water is drawn off for agricultural purposes. I've seen deeper brooks.

    I’m quite sure you’d be offended if a WASP demanded all Irish be grateful for their prosperity in the US
     
    Not me personally. AP, certainly, if you replaced the second demonym, with God knows what ethnicity. (likely influences his feelings against nationalism)

    I apologize for invading your country; and voting for Democrats and their pro-migrant, anti-native agenda.
     
    Obviously, I have my biases, but I don't favor this line of argument that some say that the "Irish ruined America." It doesn't seem very plausible to me for a number of reasons, which I won't delve into there. But, if it were true, it would hardly be an argument for even more immigration at a much higher genetic distance, and when there is a welfare state. Or for anyone to embrace blacks and treat them under the rubric of radical universalism, even if this was Africa.

    Though you like to paint blacks as newcomers and invaders; it is in fact you, the Irishman, who is the relative johnny-come-lately.
     
    The premiss that blacks were founding stock, while the Irish were not is tenuous to say the least.

    The 1619 Project doesn't want you to know this, but a lot of American blacks actually came here, well after the Declaration of Independence. After the invention of the cotton gin (which increased the demand for slavery). And also after the ban on slave imports in 1807 (partly meant to limit the number of blacks and their spread to new areas), they were smuggled in. Meanwhile, there were numerous, important Irish officers in the American Revolutionary War. Here's a list of some notables, though a few were actually Anglo, most of the list are not:
    https://www.irishamerica.com/2016/03/famous-irish-of-the-american-revolution/

    Oh, I'll grant you can construct a temporal argument about when my specific ancestors arrived in the country, but I think it would be non-starter on HBD grounds. The only reason people ever touch the temporal factor is that they want to appear to be non-racists. But to reduce it to its core: what does it matter if someone moves from Plymouth England to Plymouth, MA, USA in 1620 or 2022? It doesn't really matter very much, at least, so long as they are the right ethnic group (not necessarily true today.)

    Not only is the genetic distance between Ireland and Britain less than that found within practically every other major country in Europe - not to mention elsewhere, but when my father's folks came it was still considered the same country. Ireland had MPs in parliament in London. Irish immigrants had to renounce allegiance to Queen Victoria.

    Replies: @Yahya

    That is what Jordan Peterson advocates. BTW, do you know that he recently came out for regime change in Iran?

    Is the second sentence supposed to follow from the first? Or is this just a tangential topic?

    Jordan Peterson is a clown. But I support regime change in Iran too; though not if it’s violent. I also take a Burkean view of revolutions so my support for overthrow is circumspect and conditional. But ultimately it’s the business of Iranians.

    I honestly don’t get it. It’s not a deal, but a ripoff. Why would you spend that money? Are there not English language schools in the Middle East that would be much cheaper? Do you really need credentials over there? Wouldn’t it be better to invest in your own country?

    It is indeed a rip-off. My parents forced me to. I initially objected to going, telling them that I could better invest the money in the stock market; and that some research indicates most of what is taught in university is soon forgotten. But my parents are conformists. You go to university because everyone else in your milieu does.

    University wasn’t all too useless though. Made a few friends whom I plan to visit sometime soon. Also liked the experience of living somewhere else for a period of time. Key thing I learnt was, if you are a well-off 3rd worlder; it’s not all that better to live in a First World country (with a few exceptions like homosexuals or aspiring scientist or whatever). Tbh I already knew that to some extent; since I choose to live in Egypt not Saudi Arabia. But I thought maybe the West would be different. It wasn’t. Human relationships are more important for happiness than material surroundings.

    It is especially strange to me that Arabs should go when considering the obvious decadence there.

    My experience is that the decadence is limited to the social sciences and related subjects. The practical courses I was enrolled in were mostly normal. I did however take a few liberal arts courses; and some of them were indeed comically woke. Almost like a self-parody; I couldn’t believe the professor and students would say these things unironically.

    Sorry to say songbird; but it’s mostly American students who are susceptible to being influenced by the decadence. International students just shake their heads and move on. Me and my Arab friend group there used to mock the sort of things we heard and saw in the classroom during some of our hangouts. One of my friends’ economics professor was fired for telling an Asian-American girl “you’re Chinese, so you should know [something related to the Chinese economy]”. The professor appealed to his students to plead with the college admin on his behalf. Didn’t work. Quite sad really.

    [MORE]

    In the specific case, he referenced a public college, subsidized by the state, so, yes, I was paying for it

    How much is your share of the bill; 25 cents? Maybe 10% more? How do you know his parents’ tax bills weren’t sufficient to pay for his expenses? Do you know anything about them? They could be high-flying lawyers for all you know (rare, but possible. I had a black law professor in college). Or they could be ordinary middle-class people, earning a decent sum to pay enough taxes to fund their kids education. That’s very likely; considering he’s going to college instead of languishing in a prison cell for drug dealing or murder.

    The heavily pregnant Nigerians who took flights to Ireland to exploit a loophole in the peace process (BTW, I wonder who told them about it) have moved there and gone on the dole and you can’t send them back.

    I agree that the concept of citizenism is problematic in the context of Ireland. It’s possible and indeed was the case that Ireland is an ethno-state for the Irish; so recent newcomers can legitimately be viewed as invaders or intruders. But sorry; the idea just doesn’t hold water for African-Americans. Again; I hesitate to speak for Americans, but the normative view is that old stock blacks are definitively American. Good luck convincing anyone but a handful of WNs otherwise.

    Not me personally.

    Well you say this because a) you are not in a position of direct threat, b) you identify with WASPs and view yourself as more “European” than “Irish” and c) you seem to accept being demeaned more than the average person (much to my disappointment, I would’ve enjoyed it more if you fought back when I insult you). But suffice it to say that no Irishman worth his salt would’ve accepted being told by a WASP that he is an uneducated Mick; scrounging off the work his ancestors had done to create America; and that drunkards like him should be sent back to Ireland.

    In fact no-one would accept such treatment; and a good portion of onlookers would revile the WASP for these sentiments. To tell someone “you are defiling the place my ancestors had built” automatically puts them in an inferior and subordinate position. It provokes revilement because you are attempting to leverage something your ancestors/ethnic group had done to establish superiority over another individual. Nevermind the fact that such statements may not be adherent to reality; insofar as almost no-one has an accurate record of what their ancestors had built; much less that of another person’s ancestors.

    But even if they were adherent to reality; it’s fundamentally unjust to hold the notion that someone from another race should know their place; because they happen to be born to a certain ethnic/racial group. Imagine the gall of telling an Asian-American entrepreneur that he is defiling and invading the “place my ancestors built” when you are some insurance agent or in an otherwise mediocre occupation. Again, you would be attempting to leverage you ancestors (perceived) achievements to establish superiority; when you yourself have done nothing to merit this sentiment of superiority. Fact of the matter is, if you or your ancestors had never lived; America would be pretty much the same as it is. To pretend otherwise is to engage in narcissism and folly.

    but I don’t favor this line of argument that some say that the “Irish ruined America.”

    Well Irish-Americans like Ted Kennedy played a major role in passing the Immigration and Nationality Act of 1965; which I presume you think is one of the defining pieces of legislation to have ruined in America. So you have to own up to it.

    According to The Irish Times, Irish-Americans are solid Democrats: “In the 2016 presidential election, 92 per cent of respondents voted: 47 per cent voted for Clinton, 27 per cent for Trump, and 20 per cent refused to indicate their vote. More generally, 41 per cent signified as Democrat while 23 per cent selected Republican. ” I would imagine your group; that is Irish-Americans in the Northeast; are even more solidly Democrat; and may be regarded as the key Democratic constituents in the area; alongside blacks and Jews.

    The 1619 Project doesn’t want you to know this, but a lot of American blacks actually came here, well after the Declaration of Independence.

    How many is “a lot”? Do you really think; if we trace back the ancestry of African and Irish Americans; that your people would on average be of older stock than blacks? You’ve already admitted that you ancestors came in very recently. Somehow I doubt most blacks are descended from 19th century arrivals.

    Again, just very hypocritical to call them invaders and intruders.

    • Replies: @Emil Nikola Richard
    @Yahya

    Jordan Peterson is an idiot.

    1. Without his Wile E Coyote stunts I would today be ignorant that you can go to a Russian medical facility and get detox'd by having them put you into a coma and flushing your system with a dilute salt and sugar intravenous solution for a couple weeks while your organism undergoes the withdrawl process absent your consciousness. Plus for Jordan Peterson although that wasn't something he intended.

    2. Since nobody laughs any more and comedy is defunct the closest thing I have seen all week is a mock-at-Peterson post on reddit.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/enoughpetersonspam/comments/10nvfry/i_took_another_one_for_the_team_jordan_balthazar/

    Plus two for Peterson although this wasn't his doing either.

    The best thing that can be said for him is that nobody important pays attention to him. He is not as harmful as Zeehan!

    , @songbird
    @Yahya


    >That is what Jordan Peterson advocates. BTW, do you know that he recently came out for regime change in Iran?

    Is the second sentence supposed to follow from the first?
     
    Some people say he has always been a tool of the establishment. Promoting individualism among Euros, while also promoting Zionism. That's why he was promoted and achieved his fame and fortune. Right now, he is working for Ben Shapiro.

    https://twitter.com/RyLiberty/status/1618204909329080325?s=20&t=9o64v4_O0hM8J1v1yltw9g
    https://youtu.be/TeAWbUl22FU

    But I support regime change in Iran too
     
    He appears to be supporting America-led regime change. Seems fairly likely that he is influenced by Zionism.

    https://twitter.com/PrisonPlanet/status/1620850938532761601?s=20&t=9o64v4_O0hM8J1v1yltw9g

    Irish-Americans like Ted Kennedy played a major role in passing the Immigration and Nationality Act of 1965; which I presume you think is one of the defining pieces of legislation to have ruined in America. So you have to own up to it
     
    . A lot wrong with this argument. I'll just mention a few things.

    Civil War was fought without any significant Irish political influence. Lincoln did away with all sorts of rights, and imposed an income tax, all without Irish involvement (if anything Irish immigrants were against it), unless you count the importation of unwilling meat bags for the army.

    Australia had no Puritans. Irish were completely foundational, without any caveats. They had a whites only policy, until they started to follow America's lead.

    Have you seen who voted (in Congress) for the Civil Rights Act? Hint: more Republicans than Dems (though most the Dems were objecting for bad reasons) Anyway, takeaway is Congress was completely cucked. Both sides of it.

    Elections matter very little. Who believes that the American public ever voted to open the borders to the Third World? No country did, but here we are. What matters only is elite opinion.

    Final thing I'd mention is that a lot of people pointing to the Irish have various shortcomings, and have had them historically. Disraeli did it (NOT English). Academic Agent does it now (NOT English). Scott Greer does it (doesn't want to talk about who really holds power because he understands the consequences.)

    But sorry; the idea just doesn’t hold water for African-Americans.
     
    I was trying to prompt you to refine your argument. But you still seem stuck on the construction "because they are citizens." IMO, a rather inelegant justification because we can virtually extend it to any geography based on the one-time loophole of anyone being granted citizenship, through any corrupt, but legal or else elite-approved process.

    I suspect that you really want to say "because they were slaves," which would have the merit of being geographically-limiting. Or, maybe, that you are grandfathered in after a similar period of time, or number of generations, whatever your origin or effect on society. (Woe to Europe!) But I don't want try to argue your case for you.

    Again, just very hypocritical to call them invaders and intruders.
     
    They don't support freedom of association. That's a foundational value, and means that they have invaded and intruded into countless places and organizations.

    Anyway, to be a hypocrite, I'd have to be inconsistent in my own views, but I am not. My views are that blacks don't have the same civilizational capacity (broadly speaking - theoretically, they could be segregated into more functional fractions) And that it's been a disaster for Euros to pretend that they do, and far from all the damage already being done and the dust-settled, or us being able to rebuild, it is a growing disaster, with potentially no upper limit.

    I'm not a loon for thinking so either. Seventy years after the Irish arrived in masse, Boston was still a fairly normal place. But what is it like seventy years after blacks started arriving in masse?

    https://twitter.com/GraceSm73368432/status/1620359457585926144?s=20&t=9o64v4_O0hM8J1v1yltw9g

    How many is “a lot”?
     
    South practically wasn't planting cotton until about 1794. Have you heard of Jim Bowie? Pretty famous here, there's a knife named after him, and he died at the Alamo. Most don't know he was a slave smuggler, started in about 1818. Who knows exactly how many? But I'd be very surprised if it wasn't a large number because the financial inducements were there. Bowie didn't do it based on principles, but for money. (just think of illegal immigration today)

    Do you really think; if we trace back the ancestry of African and Irish Americans; that your people would on average be of older stock than blacks?
     
    Chronological arrival argument is a faulty one, IMO.

    Are blacks supposed to be "foundational?" They couldn't vote. Abolitionism was partly a movement to prevent the Midwest from becoming populated with blacks. Abe Lincoln said they'd have to be resettled, if they were freed because it would destroy society, since they lacked the same capacities. At first, he wanted to settle them in Central America (not USA), but Central Americans were incensed and opposed the plan.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linconia

    Replies: @S, @Coconuts, @S, @Yahya

  883. @AP
    @AnonfromTN


    “Luhansk (population 409,000), Makiivka (population 350,000)”

    If you want to be punched in the face, pronounce city names that way in the presence of Lugansk
     
    Don’t they pronounce g as h in Luhansk, as in southern Russia?

    BTW, in Makeevka you might get punched in the face for just speaking Ukrainian: Ukraine keeps shelling it, indiscriminately killing civilians of all ages and both genders
     
    And now people in Kharkiv hate Russia like that.

    Replies: @AnonfromTN

    Don’t they pronounce g as h in Luhansk, as in southern Russia?

    Residents of Donbass and Southern Russia pronounce g in their specific way, but it by no means sounds like h. No Lugansk resident would ever write the name of their city using Roman letters as “Luhansk”, they would write “Lugansk”, as they pronounce it.

    And now people in Kharkiv hate Russia like that.

    Russian missiles never target civilians, they target troops, military installations, plants that produce or repair weapons and ammo, electric power-generating and distributing plants, and some railway stations (rarely). No Russian rocket ever hit working hospital, school, or kindergarten, in sharp contrast to Ukie criminals.

    It was the same in Lugansk before local freedom fighters kicked Ukie scum far enough from the city. Now Lugansk is safe, although there you clearly see that the war is going on, in contrast to Moscow and other Russian cities, where no signs that the country is at war are visible. This is my first-hand knowledge: I visited Lugansk, Moscow, and Penza in October, 2022.

    • Replies: @AP
    @AnonfromTN


    Residents of Donbass and Southern Russia pronounce g in their specific way, but it by no means sounds like h
     
    I have friends from southern Russia, they say havaryt. (though they would write it with a g). But I never heard them mention Luhansk/Luhansk.

    “And now people in Kharkiv hate Russia like that”

    Russian missiles never target civilians, they target troops, military installations, plants that produce or repair weapons and ammo, electric power-generating and distributing plants
     
    Ukrainians claim the same thing. Meanwhile Kharkiv has been destroyed by the Russians even more than it had been damaged by the Germans. Go to Kharkiv with a big “Z” symbol and you’ll be treated like in Donbas if you had a Bandera poster.
  884. @Another Polish Perspective
    @LatW

    The photo airs some authenticity - it really looks like the old pre-digital photo, and when things are out of focus, they are out of focus together (like the leg and and the cigarette). It doesn't look doctored.

    Not sure why Zelenski shouldn't be gay - in the West, it could increase his popularity. As for Ukraine, well, I heard that it is more gay-tolerant than Russia anyway.

    In the old Poland homosexuality seems to have been pretty popular among Cossacks, at least when juxtaposed to Poles. Some even saw in their military organisation homosexuals traces, of Theban sacred legion composed of group of lovers, for this reason Cossacks calling themselves "mołojec" aka "a young dashing man" . I must say I wondered myself once why they spend so little time with women, despite the fact that war wasn't always rampant in Ukraine.

    Jędrzej Kitowicz, writing in the 18th century ("Opis obyczajów za panowania Augusta III"), acusses Cossacks of rampant homosexualism and zoofilia.

    ''Żon nie mieli ani kobiety żadnej między sobą nie cierpieli; a kiedy który został przekonany, że kędy za granicą miał sprawę z kobietą, tedy takowego do pala w kureniu, z którego był, za dekretem przywiązanego, póty tłukli polanami, to jest szczypami drew, póki go nie zabili, pokazując na pozór, jakoby czcili stan czystości; dla czego też nazywali się powszechnie mołojcami, to jest młodzieńcami, gdy w samej rzeczy prowadzili życie bestialskie, mażąc się jedni z drugimi grzechem sodomskim albo łącząc z bydlętami, na które sprośności, samej naturze obmierzłe, nie było żadnej kary, jakby uczynek z kobietą był plugawszy niż z kobyłą albo z krową.''


    It is the old Polish, so I can't translate this well but you do recognize words like "kureń","mołojec", "grzech sodomski - sin of Sodom", "bydlęta" - beasts, kobyła- mare, krowa - cow, "łącząc z bydlętami" - uniting with beasts.

    Zelenski should simply deny rumours, not just about this photo. But, well, he doesn't deny. Apparently, he does not want to.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @LatW, @Another Polish Perspective

    As for Ukraine, well, I heard that it is more gay-tolerant than Russia anyway.

    Gay & trans overreach, of course, is not good, but what matters in the long run is how healthy and vital the heteros are, that’s what matters above all.

    In the old Poland homosexuality seems to have been pretty popular among Cossacks, at least when juxtaposed to Poles.

    Well, I’m not sure Poles would have a fully objective view of Ukrainians. 🙂

    It is known that in male only organizations, all kinds of things happen. Some of it has to do with establishing hierarchy which is very important to these groups.

    It sounds like it had some signs of a military order. You know that the Teutonic Knights were also supposed to be completely chaste and abstinent.

    for this reason Cossacks calling themselves “mołojec” aka “a young dashing man”

    Yes, molodec comes from “the young one” but it also means “well done!”.

    • Replies: @Another Polish Perspective
    @LatW


    Gay & trans overreach, of course, is not good, but what matters in the long run is how healthy and vital the heteros are, that’s what matters above all.
     
    Gays & Heteros are interconnected since gays are produced by hetero women. I mean I am completely on board of genetic grounds for homosexuality so any "moral" healthiness is irrelevant here.

    Well, I’m not sure Poles would have a fully objective view of Ukrainians.
     
    Kitowicz is considered a very good historical source, of almost ethnographic standards. Discrediting him as a Pole is both stupid and racist, especially as he didn't focus on Cossacks in any way; they are one of his many subjects. Of note is also that no one rose to contradict him, "No, Cossacks are not like that, they are sworn heterosexuals who collect spoils to provide for their large families".

    It is known that in male only organizations, all kinds of things happen. Some of it has to do with establishing hierarchy which is very important to these groups.
     
    This is both stupid and ridiculous. You are actually saying that homosexuality is latent to all males, and rape is primary way of establishing hierarchy! Is that female obsession with rape or what..? You look to be sex-crazy, LatW! It seems that you have internalized the Western view that sex, and that means ANY sex, is a primary human need which must and will be realized whatever the cost.

    It sounds like it had some signs of a military order. You know that the Teutonic Knights were also supposed to be completely chaste and abstinent.
     
    Cossacks were no military order, with some exception to register Cossacks (Kozacy rejestrowi) but there were only 6000 of that kind prior to Chmielnicki uprising. That means that in general their organization was voluntary. Yet unlike Polish voluntary military like husaria, they don't seem to have steady relationships or families or homes to which they would return every year - which is strange. They don't identify themselves as "son of..." etc. Frankly, they seem to have been much more organized around Spartan-like syssitia system and - like Spartans - only sporadically met with women, if at all. Or, in German terminology, they were typical Maennerbund. Such organizations had strong traces of homosexuality, and in fact Kitowicz description relates typically homosexual way of thinking in their case, which is apparently rampant at Vatican too, at least according to "Sodoma" of Frederic Martel: like Vatican clergy, Cossacks defined the lack of chastity as engaging in sex with women, not with men. According to Kitowicz, Cossacks guilty of that sin were canned to death by their fellows with fresh twigs/canes, a communal canning being a strange custom observed in the past among some Great Goddess followers, with a great description of sexual arousal which accompanies it present in Jose Saramago novel "Balthasar and Blimunda".

    Replies: @AP, @LatW

  885. @Ivashka the fool
    @LatW

    I think the pic is from one of the plays of Kvartal 95 that they might have done together, both are actors after all. And of course given the "homocentric" focus that shpana used to have, where you had to always emphasize that you're as straight as a 2"×4" for fear of being put down and ending up a petukh, it inflames the imagination of that very types that "can repeat". Again, Freudian much. Anyways, stupid people are stupid (being a Fool, I am an expert in such matters). End of story.



    The word gopnik originates from Piter in the early twentieth century, and yes the local shpana was bad, especially the Ligovo neighborhood gangs where Pynya grew up. He is not lying about his tough upbringing. But one of the things I remember of my teenage interactions with these types, was that they preyed upon the weak. When they met with enough resistance, they're usually gave up. They were basically sociopathic bullies.

    My own Moscow neighborhood was quite bad, not as bad as Lyubertsy or Ligovo in Piter, but it was also infested with enough nasty shpana some of whom ended up street thugs and racketeers in the mafia later. They mostly finished their life very badly: alcoholic addiction, drugs, STDs, prison times and suicides. I am glad that even though I interacted with them quite often, I have never been too close to be involved in their petty crimes and incessant bullying of others. Of course my family was intellectuals, not proles, and I ended up leaving my neighborhood school to go to a school specialized in French closer to downtown Moscow, so that helped putting some distance between me and them.

    Yes, the video clip is by young Russians born and raised in Latvia. With a little luck once this all disgusting situation resolves itself, these young people will have a good and positive life. They look healthy and they still listen to Tsoï / Kino, good kids.

    https://youtu.be/wKxYPPXwZQQ

    When it was the first anniversary of his death, I went to Piter, joined my cousin there ans we visited his grave, then spent the evening and the night at the place where he worked as a fireman in an old building and that was called Kamchatka. There were people from all around the USSR, Baltic kids too and some Ukrainians I drank with. Victor was very respected and loved by many among us because his songs were about our life and we could easily self-identify with the lyrics.

    May he rest in peace.

    Replies: @AP, @LatW, @LatW

    both are actors after all

    You know, actor and politician can sometimes be quite close. 🙂 I mean, not everyone can be a fricking lawyer or a former head of Komsomol with banker friends. Some have to be self-made. 🙂

    Ok, I’m posting this just for you.

    For those who don’t understand Russian, this is a parody of an “independent bimbo” who is deep inside just a “gold digger”. I can’t judge his acting talent, but it’s quite funny. Please, meet Lyusen’ka.

    Or would you rather stick with the military analysis? 🙂

    Under MORE.

    [MORE]

  886. @Yahya
    @songbird


    That is what Jordan Peterson advocates. BTW, do you know that he recently came out for regime change in Iran?
     
    Is the second sentence supposed to follow from the first? Or is this just a tangential topic?

    Jordan Peterson is a clown. But I support regime change in Iran too; though not if it's violent. I also take a Burkean view of revolutions so my support for overthrow is circumspect and conditional. But ultimately it's the business of Iranians.


    I honestly don’t get it. It’s not a deal, but a ripoff. Why would you spend that money? Are there not English language schools in the Middle East that would be much cheaper? Do you really need credentials over there? Wouldn’t it be better to invest in your own country?
     
    It is indeed a rip-off. My parents forced me to. I initially objected to going, telling them that I could better invest the money in the stock market; and that some research indicates most of what is taught in university is soon forgotten. But my parents are conformists. You go to university because everyone else in your milieu does.

    University wasn't all too useless though. Made a few friends whom I plan to visit sometime soon. Also liked the experience of living somewhere else for a period of time. Key thing I learnt was, if you are a well-off 3rd worlder; it's not all that better to live in a First World country (with a few exceptions like homosexuals or aspiring scientist or whatever). Tbh I already knew that to some extent; since I choose to live in Egypt not Saudi Arabia. But I thought maybe the West would be different. It wasn't. Human relationships are more important for happiness than material surroundings.


    It is especially strange to me that Arabs should go when considering the obvious decadence there.
     
    My experience is that the decadence is limited to the social sciences and related subjects. The practical courses I was enrolled in were mostly normal. I did however take a few liberal arts courses; and some of them were indeed comically woke. Almost like a self-parody; I couldn't believe the professor and students would say these things unironically.

    Sorry to say songbird; but it's mostly American students who are susceptible to being influenced by the decadence. International students just shake their heads and move on. Me and my Arab friend group there used to mock the sort of things we heard and saw in the classroom during some of our hangouts. One of my friends' economics professor was fired for telling an Asian-American girl "you're Chinese, so you should know [something related to the Chinese economy]". The professor appealed to his students to plead with the college admin on his behalf. Didn't work. Quite sad really.


    In the specific case, he referenced a public college, subsidized by the state, so, yes, I was paying for it
     
    How much is your share of the bill; 25 cents? Maybe 10% more? How do you know his parents' tax bills weren't sufficient to pay for his expenses? Do you know anything about them? They could be high-flying lawyers for all you know (rare, but possible. I had a black law professor in college). Or they could be ordinary middle-class people, earning a decent sum to pay enough taxes to fund their kids education. That's very likely; considering he's going to college instead of languishing in a prison cell for drug dealing or murder.

    The heavily pregnant Nigerians who took flights to Ireland to exploit a loophole in the peace process (BTW, I wonder who told them about it) have moved there and gone on the dole and you can’t send them back.
     
    I agree that the concept of citizenism is problematic in the context of Ireland. It's possible and indeed was the case that Ireland is an ethno-state for the Irish; so recent newcomers can legitimately be viewed as invaders or intruders. But sorry; the idea just doesn't hold water for African-Americans. Again; I hesitate to speak for Americans, but the normative view is that old stock blacks are definitively American. Good luck convincing anyone but a handful of WNs otherwise.

    Not me personally.
     
    Well you say this because a) you are not in a position of direct threat, b) you identify with WASPs and view yourself as more "European" than "Irish" and c) you seem to accept being demeaned more than the average person (much to my disappointment, I would've enjoyed it more if you fought back when I insult you). But suffice it to say that no Irishman worth his salt would've accepted being told by a WASP that he is an uneducated Mick; scrounging off the work his ancestors had done to create America; and that drunkards like him should be sent back to Ireland.

    In fact no-one would accept such treatment; and a good portion of onlookers would revile the WASP for these sentiments. To tell someone "you are defiling the place my ancestors had built" automatically puts them in an inferior and subordinate position. It provokes revilement because you are attempting to leverage something your ancestors/ethnic group had done to establish superiority over another individual. Nevermind the fact that such statements may not be adherent to reality; insofar as almost no-one has an accurate record of what their ancestors had built; much less that of another person's ancestors.

    But even if they were adherent to reality; it's fundamentally unjust to hold the notion that someone from another race should know their place; because they happen to be born to a certain ethnic/racial group. Imagine the gall of telling an Asian-American entrepreneur that he is defiling and invading the "place my ancestors built" when you are some insurance agent or in an otherwise mediocre occupation. Again, you would be attempting to leverage you ancestors (perceived) achievements to establish superiority; when you yourself have done nothing to merit this sentiment of superiority. Fact of the matter is, if you or your ancestors had never lived; America would be pretty much the same as it is. To pretend otherwise is to engage in narcissism and folly.


    but I don’t favor this line of argument that some say that the “Irish ruined America.”
     
    Well Irish-Americans like Ted Kennedy played a major role in passing the Immigration and Nationality Act of 1965; which I presume you think is one of the defining pieces of legislation to have ruined in America. So you have to own up to it.

    According to The Irish Times, Irish-Americans are solid Democrats: "In the 2016 presidential election, 92 per cent of respondents voted: 47 per cent voted for Clinton, 27 per cent for Trump, and 20 per cent refused to indicate their vote. More generally, 41 per cent signified as Democrat while 23 per cent selected Republican. " I would imagine your group; that is Irish-Americans in the Northeast; are even more solidly Democrat; and may be regarded as the key Democratic constituents in the area; alongside blacks and Jews.


    The 1619 Project doesn’t want you to know this, but a lot of American blacks actually came here, well after the Declaration of Independence.
     
    How many is "a lot"? Do you really think; if we trace back the ancestry of African and Irish Americans; that your people would on average be of older stock than blacks? You've already admitted that you ancestors came in very recently. Somehow I doubt most blacks are descended from 19th century arrivals.

    Again, just very hypocritical to call them invaders and intruders.

    Replies: @Emil Nikola Richard, @songbird

    Jordan Peterson is an idiot.

    1. Without his Wile E Coyote stunts I would today be ignorant that you can go to a Russian medical facility and get detox’d by having them put you into a coma and flushing your system with a dilute salt and sugar intravenous solution for a couple weeks while your organism undergoes the withdrawl process absent your consciousness. Plus for Jordan Peterson although that wasn’t something he intended.

    2. Since nobody laughs any more and comedy is defunct the closest thing I have seen all week is a mock-at-Peterson post on reddit.

    I took another one for the team. Jordan Balthazar Peterson on Joe Rogan Experience. A conservative WEF is in store for us
    by u/AcornsWithSquirrel in enoughpetersonspam

    Plus two for Peterson although this wasn’t his doing either.

    The best thing that can be said for him is that nobody important pays attention to him. He is not as harmful as Zeehan!

  887. @Mikel
    @Sher Singh


    Don’t accuse me of being ethno-centric when I’m the least of the lot.
     
    Well, that much is true. I still haven't been able to figure out which ethnic group you belong to. Indo-Muslim perhaps?

    Replies: @Sher Singh, @Yevardian

    He’s Punjabi (both provinces on the Indo-Paki border), whom comprise probably over 70% of subcontinentals in Australia.
    Although I dunno if your question was sarcastic, since 95% of his posts are Sikh breast-beating. Anyway the overwhelming majority of Sikhs are Punjabis, whilst most Punjabis are Sikhs. I think it’s basically a religion you’re born into or you’re not, although like Jews you can convert, but it’s difficult and discouraged.
    I’ve never really read into the subject, but I’m pretty certain there aren’t any Sikhs south of the Deccan.
    I remember in the first (An Area of Darkness) of V.S Naipaul’s ‘India Trilogy’ his matter-of-fact account of a Sikh who befriended Naipaul, sensing a fellow kindred spirit (probably based on Naipaul’s assholish and arrogant demeanor), and Naipaul observing this Sikh bullying random people on the train, constantly provoking fights, talking about his expat days in London and how he was dissapointed the British lost their imperial mentality, or ranting to him about Dravidians being ‘natural born slaves’ and so on and so forth.

    • Replies: @Mikel
    @Yevardian


    Although I dunno if your question was sarcastic
     
    Sorry, I couldn't resist. Though it was him who started with the sarcasm by saying that he is the least ethnocentric commenter lol.

    Sher and I have had some minor disagreements on the consumption of cow meat but otherwise we're cool. I may find the aesthetics of turbans and dreadlocks debatable and not appreciate too much his comments on the mistreatment of women and violence in general but we're learning to be friends.
  888. @Ivashka the fool
    @AP


    Korean film Parasite was supposedly based on Elena.
     
    Although Elena was good, Parasite was much better and much wider in its reflection about the nature of social conventions and (negative) social class interactions. And Parasite was funny, which Elena wasn't. I don't think both movies have much in common. The Return was Zvyagintsev's best movie un my opinion.

    Replies: @Ivashka the fool, @Yevardian

    Curious if Parasite was indeed based on Elena. I personally don’t think that had much in common. I thought Elena’s main theme was the moral degradation of (Russian) society generally, whilst the tone of ‘Parasite’ was quite hopeful, and although there was some good black humour, it quickly became on-the-nose in how cheap and obvious it was. ‘Many rich people are idiots’ has never been an incisive observation.

    I’d agree that ‘The Return’ remains Zvyagintsev’s best film.

    For what it’s worth I definitely preferred ‘Elena’, ‘Parasite’ had far too many character/plot elements that were just totally unbelievable for me and spoiled my enjoyment of the film. Like in ‘Parasite’, it becomes clear very early on that the main family characters are all very intelligent and driven, so it made absolutely no sense they’d be living in a hovel, folding pizza boxes for a living (implied to be for years), and then only suddenly cook up a series of clever machiavellian schemes given the first opportunity.

    I thought Burning was a far better Korean film about class that came out the year before (2018). Actually, all of Lee Chang-Dong’s films have been brilliant, Peppermint Candy (1999) is a masterpiece, still the best movie I’ve seen come out of Korea in general.

    • Replies: @Greasy William
    @Yevardian

    was Burning the one about the guy who sets greenhouses on fire? That was a great film but I don't see what it had to do with class. The villain was rich but it wasn't like there was any class rivalry or anything

    Replies: @Yevardian

  889. @Ivashka the fool
    @HeavilyMarbledSteak


    Its been said of Zen that it consists in being superior by realizing that everyone is absolutely equal ultimately.
     
    Aaron, for Ryokan Taigu's sake, please stop !

    Zen is not about being superior, inferior or equal.

    Zen is only about the sound of one hand clapping !

    What is the meaning of Daruma's coming from the Western lands ?

    😉

    Replies: @HeavilyMarbledSteak, @Yevardian

    Buddhism is the ultimate religion of resigned cowardice. I think even the Sikh could agree it even trumps his opinion of Christianity in that respect.

    Not to mention, whatever you think of it, it’s undeniable that Christianity completely altered European society in a fundamental fashion. Conversely Buddhism’s origins as a reaction against the Hindu caste system came very soon as an utter failure.
    Nearly everywhere else where Buddhism was adopted it was basically reduced to primitive idol-worship.

  890. @Yahya
    @songbird


    That is what Jordan Peterson advocates. BTW, do you know that he recently came out for regime change in Iran?
     
    Is the second sentence supposed to follow from the first? Or is this just a tangential topic?

    Jordan Peterson is a clown. But I support regime change in Iran too; though not if it's violent. I also take a Burkean view of revolutions so my support for overthrow is circumspect and conditional. But ultimately it's the business of Iranians.


    I honestly don’t get it. It’s not a deal, but a ripoff. Why would you spend that money? Are there not English language schools in the Middle East that would be much cheaper? Do you really need credentials over there? Wouldn’t it be better to invest in your own country?
     
    It is indeed a rip-off. My parents forced me to. I initially objected to going, telling them that I could better invest the money in the stock market; and that some research indicates most of what is taught in university is soon forgotten. But my parents are conformists. You go to university because everyone else in your milieu does.

    University wasn't all too useless though. Made a few friends whom I plan to visit sometime soon. Also liked the experience of living somewhere else for a period of time. Key thing I learnt was, if you are a well-off 3rd worlder; it's not all that better to live in a First World country (with a few exceptions like homosexuals or aspiring scientist or whatever). Tbh I already knew that to some extent; since I choose to live in Egypt not Saudi Arabia. But I thought maybe the West would be different. It wasn't. Human relationships are more important for happiness than material surroundings.


    It is especially strange to me that Arabs should go when considering the obvious decadence there.
     
    My experience is that the decadence is limited to the social sciences and related subjects. The practical courses I was enrolled in were mostly normal. I did however take a few liberal arts courses; and some of them were indeed comically woke. Almost like a self-parody; I couldn't believe the professor and students would say these things unironically.

    Sorry to say songbird; but it's mostly American students who are susceptible to being influenced by the decadence. International students just shake their heads and move on. Me and my Arab friend group there used to mock the sort of things we heard and saw in the classroom during some of our hangouts. One of my friends' economics professor was fired for telling an Asian-American girl "you're Chinese, so you should know [something related to the Chinese economy]". The professor appealed to his students to plead with the college admin on his behalf. Didn't work. Quite sad really.


    In the specific case, he referenced a public college, subsidized by the state, so, yes, I was paying for it
     
    How much is your share of the bill; 25 cents? Maybe 10% more? How do you know his parents' tax bills weren't sufficient to pay for his expenses? Do you know anything about them? They could be high-flying lawyers for all you know (rare, but possible. I had a black law professor in college). Or they could be ordinary middle-class people, earning a decent sum to pay enough taxes to fund their kids education. That's very likely; considering he's going to college instead of languishing in a prison cell for drug dealing or murder.

    The heavily pregnant Nigerians who took flights to Ireland to exploit a loophole in the peace process (BTW, I wonder who told them about it) have moved there and gone on the dole and you can’t send them back.
     
    I agree that the concept of citizenism is problematic in the context of Ireland. It's possible and indeed was the case that Ireland is an ethno-state for the Irish; so recent newcomers can legitimately be viewed as invaders or intruders. But sorry; the idea just doesn't hold water for African-Americans. Again; I hesitate to speak for Americans, but the normative view is that old stock blacks are definitively American. Good luck convincing anyone but a handful of WNs otherwise.

    Not me personally.
     
    Well you say this because a) you are not in a position of direct threat, b) you identify with WASPs and view yourself as more "European" than "Irish" and c) you seem to accept being demeaned more than the average person (much to my disappointment, I would've enjoyed it more if you fought back when I insult you). But suffice it to say that no Irishman worth his salt would've accepted being told by a WASP that he is an uneducated Mick; scrounging off the work his ancestors had done to create America; and that drunkards like him should be sent back to Ireland.

    In fact no-one would accept such treatment; and a good portion of onlookers would revile the WASP for these sentiments. To tell someone "you are defiling the place my ancestors had built" automatically puts them in an inferior and subordinate position. It provokes revilement because you are attempting to leverage something your ancestors/ethnic group had done to establish superiority over another individual. Nevermind the fact that such statements may not be adherent to reality; insofar as almost no-one has an accurate record of what their ancestors had built; much less that of another person's ancestors.

    But even if they were adherent to reality; it's fundamentally unjust to hold the notion that someone from another race should know their place; because they happen to be born to a certain ethnic/racial group. Imagine the gall of telling an Asian-American entrepreneur that he is defiling and invading the "place my ancestors built" when you are some insurance agent or in an otherwise mediocre occupation. Again, you would be attempting to leverage you ancestors (perceived) achievements to establish superiority; when you yourself have done nothing to merit this sentiment of superiority. Fact of the matter is, if you or your ancestors had never lived; America would be pretty much the same as it is. To pretend otherwise is to engage in narcissism and folly.


    but I don’t favor this line of argument that some say that the “Irish ruined America.”
     
    Well Irish-Americans like Ted Kennedy played a major role in passing the Immigration and Nationality Act of 1965; which I presume you think is one of the defining pieces of legislation to have ruined in America. So you have to own up to it.

    According to The Irish Times, Irish-Americans are solid Democrats: "In the 2016 presidential election, 92 per cent of respondents voted: 47 per cent voted for Clinton, 27 per cent for Trump, and 20 per cent refused to indicate their vote. More generally, 41 per cent signified as Democrat while 23 per cent selected Republican. " I would imagine your group; that is Irish-Americans in the Northeast; are even more solidly Democrat; and may be regarded as the key Democratic constituents in the area; alongside blacks and Jews.


    The 1619 Project doesn’t want you to know this, but a lot of American blacks actually came here, well after the Declaration of Independence.
     
    How many is "a lot"? Do you really think; if we trace back the ancestry of African and Irish Americans; that your people would on average be of older stock than blacks? You've already admitted that you ancestors came in very recently. Somehow I doubt most blacks are descended from 19th century arrivals.

    Again, just very hypocritical to call them invaders and intruders.

    Replies: @Emil Nikola Richard, @songbird

    >That is what Jordan Peterson advocates. BTW, do you know that he recently came out for regime change in Iran?

    Is the second sentence supposed to follow from the first?

    Some people say he has always been a tool of the establishment. Promoting individualism among Euros, while also promoting Zionism. That’s why he was promoted and achieved his fame and fortune. Right now, he is working for Ben Shapiro.

    [MORE]

    But I support regime change in Iran too

    He appears to be supporting America-led regime change. Seems fairly likely that he is influenced by Zionism.

    Irish-Americans like Ted Kennedy played a major role in passing the Immigration and Nationality Act of 1965; which I presume you think is one of the defining pieces of legislation to have ruined in America. So you have to own up to it

    . A lot wrong with this argument. I’ll just mention a few things.

    Civil War was fought without any significant Irish political influence. Lincoln did away with all sorts of rights, and imposed an income tax, all without Irish involvement (if anything Irish immigrants were against it), unless you count the importation of unwilling meat bags for the army.

    Australia had no Puritans. Irish were completely foundational, without any caveats. They had a whites only policy, until they started to follow America’s lead.

    Have you seen who voted (in Congress) for the Civil Rights Act? Hint: more Republicans than Dems (though most the Dems were objecting for bad reasons) Anyway, takeaway is Congress was completely cucked. Both sides of it.

    Elections matter very little. Who believes that the American public ever voted to open the borders to the Third World? No country did, but here we are. What matters only is elite opinion.

    Final thing I’d mention is that a lot of people pointing to the Irish have various shortcomings, and have had them historically. Disraeli did it (NOT English). Academic Agent does it now (NOT English). Scott Greer does it (doesn’t want to talk about who really holds power because he understands the consequences.)

    But sorry; the idea just doesn’t hold water for African-Americans.

    I was trying to prompt you to refine your argument. But you still seem stuck on the construction “because they are citizens.” IMO, a rather inelegant justification because we can virtually extend it to any geography based on the one-time loophole of anyone being granted citizenship, through any corrupt, but legal or else elite-approved process.

    I suspect that you really want to say “because they were slaves,” which would have the merit of being geographically-limiting. Or, maybe, that you are grandfathered in after a similar period of time, or number of generations, whatever your origin or effect on society. (Woe to Europe!) But I don’t want try to argue your case for you.

    Again, just very hypocritical to call them invaders and intruders.

    They don’t support freedom of association. That’s a foundational value, and means that they have invaded and intruded into countless places and organizations.

    Anyway, to be a hypocrite, I’d have to be inconsistent in my own views, but I am not. My views are that blacks don’t have the same civilizational capacity (broadly speaking – theoretically, they could be segregated into more functional fractions) And that it’s been a disaster for Euros to pretend that they do, and far from all the damage already being done and the dust-settled, or us being able to rebuild, it is a growing disaster, with potentially no upper limit.

    I’m not a loon for thinking so either. Seventy years after the Irish arrived in masse, Boston was still a fairly normal place. But what is it like seventy years after blacks started arriving in masse?

    How many is “a lot”?

    South practically wasn’t planting cotton until about 1794. Have you heard of Jim Bowie? Pretty famous here, there’s a knife named after him, and he died at the Alamo. Most don’t know he was a slave smuggler, started in about 1818. Who knows exactly how many? But I’d be very surprised if it wasn’t a large number because the financial inducements were there. Bowie didn’t do it based on principles, but for money. (just think of illegal immigration today)

    Do you really think; if we trace back the ancestry of African and Irish Americans; that your people would on average be of older stock than blacks?

    Chronological arrival argument is a faulty one, IMO.

    Are blacks supposed to be “foundational?” They couldn’t vote. Abolitionism was partly a movement to prevent the Midwest from becoming populated with blacks. Abe Lincoln said they’d have to be resettled, if they were freed because it would destroy society, since they lacked the same capacities. At first, he wanted to settle them in Central America (not USA), but Central Americans were incensed and opposed the plan.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linconia

    • Agree: Sher Singh
    • Thanks: S
    • Replies: @S
    @songbird


    Civil War was fought without any significant Irish political influence. Lincoln did away with all sorts of rights, and imposed an income tax, all without Irish involvement (if anything Irish immigrants were against it), unless you count the importation of unwilling meat bags for the army.
     
    There's a good scene in the Gangs of New York set in Civil War era New York City which touches on how the wage slavery system (ie the so called cheap labor/mass immigration system), besides first and foremost being about avoiding paying the prevailing real time local labor rates to one's own people via importing alien wage slaves, is a divide and rule scheme readily built into it besides.

    It shows the Anglo-Saxon Bill the Butcher and his gang of Anglos at the dock being displaced in real time by newly arriving Irish wage slaves, who in turn are to be displaced in time by Polock, Portuguese, and Syrian wage slaves,who in turn will be displaced by imported Chinese who will work for far less, ad nauseum.

    The movie touches on these things, but the reality is far worse than what it shows, as the wage slavery system of the more commercially oriented US North is simply the monetization of chattel slavery and it's trade, the 'immigrant' from a financial point of view being the slave.

    The Civil War itself was therefore fought for slavery by both 'sides', and to determine which of the two, chattel or wage, would prevail over the land as the more profitable and productive way to go about systematically stealing the value or another's labor.

    Get destroyed ultimately on the slow path with chattel slavery, or get destroyed on the fast path, ie mere decades with wage slavery

    It was thereforea no win situation for the soldiers fighting on either side involved, that is unless the guns had been turned upon the Northern and Southern elites and their hangers on, instead of upon each other, and a true abolition of slavery (both chattel and wage) enacted instead.

    That's what should have happened, but alas, didn't. :-(

    https://youtu.be/ns-qtoxnAS8



    https://youtu.be/Z4_4p15iGlU

    Replies: @songbird

    , @Coconuts
    @songbird


    Or, maybe, that you are grandfathered in after a similar period of time, or number of generations, whatever your origin or effect on society. (Woe to Europe!) But I don’t want try to argue your case for you.
     
    Unfortunately the era of mass immigration into Europe is correlating with a steady fall in the numbers of the historic majority ethnic groups. In the future I have some doubts that it will be possible to present this as indisputable progress and a clear sign of success to the members of those groups.

    It seems plausible this is why effort is being focused onto deconstructing their identity at the same time as highlighting the negative aspects of their culture and history, so reduction in numbers can be presented as governmental wisdom and societal achievement.

    From the point of view of the growing minorities it probably is, and a world with more people from their ethnic groups present in it is probably a better world from their pov. It seems likely this is the pov the establishment responsible for mass migration will start to favour.

    Replies: @songbird

    , @S
    @songbird


    My views are that blacks don’t have the same civilizational capacity (broadly speaking – theoretically, they could be segregated into more functional fractions) And that it’s been a disaster for Euros to pretend that they do, and far from all the damage already being done and the dust-settled, or us being able to rebuild, it is a growing disaster, with potentially no upper limit.
     
    Taking both reality and history into account, it is criminal and without excuse putting Blacks and Whites together.



    Blacks, ie sub-Saharan Africans with their dominant genes, are death for Euro-peoples, both in the genetic sense, and quite often in the physical sense, as quite contrary to the so called 'progressive' propagandists and hangers on with their sick Black fetishism, which has been passed down to them from their political and spiritual forebears time as New England slave dealers/owners, it is Euro peoples (ie the 'Whites') who are routinely killed by Blacks while simply innocently existing, and it is the Blacks who almost invariably, and with only the rare exception, that are lawfully killed by police (or others) while in the act of committing a crime.

    What's more, these so called progressives and their collaborating hangers on, very well know this, as do their Black slaves, still slaves as in my view in a certain sense the Blacks never were in reality freed, and still are enslaved as political pawns and engines of destruction by their hatred consumed progressive overseers.

    It is all too many non-exploiting Whites, the vast majority of whom did not own slaves, that seem to be clueless about the actual situation. And the solution has remained the same since 1619 in Jamestown and about the same time in Massachusetts, when sub-Saharan Africans were
    first imported in by diktat to be made chattel slaves, the same as alien wage slaves (so called 'cheap labor') were later and are still today imported in by diktat for the same self-centered and greedy reasons by the same types, to denounce and wholly separate both individually and collectively from such narcissistic people.

    Let's hear what what one of the prog's Black slaves and one of their 'revolutionarys', Eldridge Cleaver, a convicted rapist, had to say about the actual motivation of Blacks in general being with White women.

    He describes this motivation as often being of a 'bloody, hateful, bitter, and malignant' nature, and decidedly not for any esthetic reasons. Cleaver spoke the actual truth of the matter.

    'I know that the black man's sick attitude toward the white woman is a revolutionary sickness: it keeps him perpetually out of harmony with the system that is oppressing him. Many whites flatter themselves with the idea that the Negro male's lust and desire for the white dream girl is purely an esthetic attraction, but nothing could be further from the truth. His motivation is often of such a bloody, hateful, bitter, and malignant nature that whites would really be hard pressed to find it flattering.' Eldridge Cleaver
     
    https://www.azquotes.com/quote/686955

    Replies: @songbird

    , @Yahya
    @songbird


    . A lot wrong with this argument. I’ll just mention a few things.
     
    You haven’t refuted anything I’ve said; just shifted to another topic like the civil war.

    Do you or do you not believe the 1965 Immigration Act was disastrous for America? And are you going to own up to Kennedy’s instrumental role in passing it through?

    The civil rights act was voted on a primarily North-South cline. Northerners; whether Democrat or Republican; voted for it. Southerners voted against it. Irish-Americans tend to be concentrated in the Northeast; where liberalism of the Democrat and Republican variety reigns supreme. The Irish are key constituents; and several of their prominent representatives like the Kennedy’s and the current US president are bastions of liberalism. The Irish are probably the most liberal white ethnicity in America; not far behind Jews.


    Elections matter very little. Who believes that the American public ever voted to open the borders to the Third World? No country did, but here we are. What matters only is elite opinion.
     
    Well I agree that most Americans didn’t consciously vote for open borders. But you’re mistaken if you absolve the public of all responsibility and put it all at the feet of the elites. A significant portion of “good white” liberals actually do support increased immigration; and the rest of white American is either apathetic or too cowardly to oppose it in any meaningful manner. You have to remember that 40% of whites still vote Democrat in elections - that’s not a majority but fairly close to it.

    In Germany people are even more feckless and apathetic; supporting Merkel in large numbers even after she opened the borders in the most reckless way imaginable. Still, after being fed-up with the CDU, what does the German voting public do? Turn to the AfD? Nope. They comically give more votes to the nutty Greens than the AfD. These are all free and fair elections in which the majority of the electorate are still native Germans.

    Replies: @songbird

  891. @LatW
    @Dmitry


    About AnoninTN, if I remember, he is from Ukraine, from Lvov. Also Here Be Dragon was from Ukraine
     
    They are both representatives of the so called "Russian world" and both supporters of Kremlin's policies, including looking for excuses for what is currently going on. And you know this very well.

    Moldova supplied everyone with cognac. Maybe there could be the alcoholic version of the conspiracy theory “they want to invade Iraq for oil”.
     
    That's right. They could just go there and get drunk on Moldovan wine. From what I vaguely recall, there were also extraordinarily sweet pears that were grown in Moldova. In real contrast to our sour Northern European cherries - I heard their chereshnya is also much fuller and sweeter. So I think we have a case here.

    Maybe I can be Costa Rica.
     
    Well, at this point anything beats being back in Matushka and getting mobilized to be sent to get himars'ed. So Costa Rica it is! :) You could go birdwatching and find the most amazing, colorful parrots there and forget about the rest of the world. :)

    [Bradley's] would have probably called these “light tanks”. And they have nightvision optics, very long-range anti-tank missiles etc.
     
    Yes, they are like "half tanks" (and they look so damn cool). The main goal is to protect the soldier. I hope the Ukrainians can handle their maintenance (I'm sure they can, knowing them).

    I heard some Swedish tank even has temperature control inside of it, insane.

    Replies: @Dmitry

    “Russian world” and both

    They are from Ukraine, it is their native part of earth, even if the political organization they were born in was the USSR. You can never escape the place you come from as a child. It’s one of the deep parts of the personality.

    You go to a new country, at night you still dream you are suddenly back in the old home. Even if I would emigrate to Arizona, I probably would not dream about cactuses.

    supporters of Kremlin

    Here Be Dragon was copy/pasting posts from Boris Rozhin (this is a very low quality Kremlin propaganda they spread on the internet in Russia), so some of his posts were Kremlin propaganda/anti-American propaganda. But he was from Ukraine so his point of view will be related to real world at least in terms of its motives.

    Our forum is not a good sample, but AnoninTN and Here Be Dragon are examples similar trauma from Ukraine, as both have the same hatred of nationalism. AnoninTN also says he has hatred of empire (this is rhetoric from Lenin).

    “Superhero (or supervillain) origin story” of Here Be Dragon were those fights with Ukrainian villagers.
    https://www.unz.com/akarlin/open-thread-190-russia-ukraine/#comment-5389482

    like “half tanks” (and they look so damn cool). The main goal is to protect the soldier

    I think they could still be destroyed by artillery.

    But it’s authentic American equipment, used by the American army in 1991. They have more advanced sensors than any vehicles in the Russian army. And America can continue increasing the temperature of the water. Or they could continue allowing Ukraine to fight, just using old equipment from the 1970s American warehouses.

    There is the strange incompetence of Putin, that he has become enemies of advanced countries, in exchange for valueless anti-Western rhetoric. If he wanted to win the postsoviet border conflicts, it’s a significant mistake to motivate powerful countries to support your enemy.*

    Even if he wanted to invade Ukraine, Prokhorov would have been more successful. Yeltsin would have been more successful. If you want to win the postsoviet border conflicts, you would use pro-Western rhetoric and diplomatic ambiguity.

    Although also a dictator who is focused on postsoviet border conflict instead of internal development, A Aliev is an example of the more disciplined and strategic leader than Putin. He prepares the diplomatic space before the war. Instead of valueless anti-Western rhetoric for years, invited NATO for exercises.


    *Unless you want the postsoviet border conflict with the poorest country in Europe, to look like the Iran-Iraq war (already too late – it looks like the Iran-Iraq war). Aliev was fighting for 6 weeks.

    Ukrainian from Ukraine posting here was angry at me

    AnoninTN can write himself. But he says he is not just from Ukraine, but has been Ukrainian speaking with his grandparents, who were Ukrainian speaking people.
    https://www.unz.com/akarlin/ukro-khazars-trying-to-appropriate-russian-culture/#comment-4149596

    He is from a multi-generational Ukrainian speaking family (i.e. ethnic Ukrainian) and was born in Ukraine.

    carpetbaggers, it seems)

    Well, it’s famous that he hates the bluegrass music of Tennessee, but this adjective doesn’t sound so negative – they supported the right of all American citizens to vote https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carpetbagger

    Here Be Dragon is from Ukraine but has no Ukrainian roots and is a Russian-speaker of Russian, Jewish and Romanian descent. Essentially, a Homo Sovieticus.

    “Homo Sovieticus” refers to a mentality, it’s not related to nationality.

    Ukrainian nationalism was the mainstream and official project of the Ukraine from the 1990s. If AnoninTN and Here Be Dragon were children a couple generations later, with some regional change , they would likely have been in the Ukrainian nation-building project.

    and is a Russian-speaker

    Most of the Ukrainian military are speaking Russian.

    ongbird

    he Soviet Union often chose where people would live, and often assigned people outside their ethnic republics, in order to purposefully erode national

    There are times when nationalities are settled disproportionately to certain regions. In the 19th century, vast numbers of the Ukrainians are settled in the Far East and Siberia. In Soviet times, engineers are thrown all around. But overall, for the majority of people, it’s more the opposite trend. In Soviet times most people are unnaturally fixed as there is an internal closed borders system. There was far more cultural or national homogeneity in the local area. They maintained most people in the same region.

    It’s in the last thirty years there is a lot of internal movements. This also increases the accents in some cities, because millions of villagers have been flooding to cities. So, people talk about the “peculiar pronunciation”, but accents are usually a lot more strong with the new people flooding into the city.

    • Replies: @LatW
    @Dmitry


    Here Be Dragon [..] similar trauma from Ukraine, as both have the same hatred of nationalism.

    “Superhero (or supervillain) origin story” of Here Be Dragon were those fights with Ukrainian villagers.
    https://www.unz.com/akarlin/open-thread-190-russia-ukraine/#comment-5389482

     

    That was a good quote, thanks for reposting it. I understand those dynamics (I overheard about those brawls from back in the day from my dad once, although he wasn't involved in those much and the ethnicity dynamics were slightly different). Those were petty turf wars, but this Dragon dude, being part Jewish, is putting the nationalist element in there. Instead he should've manned up. The village was good - you get to have plenty of sun and exercise, eat good organic home grown food, work physically, but still have plenty of rest. It is good to balance that with the city life. It's best to take from both worlds (city and village). His approach must have been too one sided.

    By the way, he does give a good description of the old Slavic Maslenitsa tradition of "stenka na stenku". This tradition is a bit wild, but there are rules. I saw that this tradition is live and well in Russia and young boys are involved with it, and they are trained to do it properly now (not the way these otmorozkis apparently used to do it back in the day with boi bez pravil). So things are getting better in some ways, old traditions live on.

    I think they could still be destroyed by artillery.
     
    Well, they shouldn't be sent into a large offensive without air support, that would be stupid. All those vehicles, including expensive tanks, would just get destroyed. They need attack helicopters.

    Unless you want the postsoviet border conflict with the poorest country in Europe, to look like the Iran-Iraq war (already too late – it looks like the Iran-Iraq war).
     
    This is just superstition, but sometimes it looks like there is something sitting in the Kremlin who wants this, almost something infernal. I don't know if this is true or fake, but there was a Putin quite circulating around recently (in UA sources) where he said about the population of Belgorod "They are [assimilated] Ukrainians there too so let them just kill each other".

    Even if he wanted to invade Ukraine, Prokhorov would have been more successful. Yeltsin would have been more successful. If you want to win the postsoviet border conflicts, you would use pro-Western rhetoric and diplomatic ambiguity.
     
    You could fight only a limited war that way because even the lukewarm West can only stomach as much. They probably could've stomached some bloodless annexation of parts of Donbas. Even with "diplomatic ambiguity" you can only go so far.

    Although also a dictator who is focused on postsoviet border conflict instead of internal development, A Aliev is an example of the more disciplined and strategic leader than Putin.
     
    I wouldn't say Aliev is not focused on internal development, Baku looks good. Azeris also stick to their traditions which keeps them strong.

    He prepares the diplomatic space before the war. Instead of valueless anti-Western rhetoric for years, invited NATO for exercises.
     
    I think his ambitions are somewhat more realistic in that conflict. Besides Russia used to visit with NATO as well. Russian military visited the Latvian main military base not too long before the war.
    Not sure there is much point in it, but it was going on.

    Replies: @Dmitry

    , @songbird
    @Dmitry


    In the 19th century, vast numbers of the Ukrainians are settled in the Far East and Siberia.
     
    I once saw a map, where it seemed that that Ukrainians were the more predominant group all along the South.

    It reminded me of an early idea for the US, after the Thirteen Colonies gained independence, and new land West was open for settlement. There was an idea for each state to get new land in the unsettled West. Sort of extending their borders along latitudinal lines. Of course, New York wouldn't have gotten the full area to its West, but Massachusetts and Connecticut been given long narrow areas, roughly following the lines of their borders.

    Replies: @LatW

  892. @Ivashka the fool
    @songbird

    Russians are only introverted when they don't know other people in the group. And you are right that there is a great deal of regional variation in Russian population.

    Southern Russians are basically identical to the Eastern Ukrainians in their attitudes, while North-Western Russians are mentally closer to their Fenno-Scandian neighbors. IRC Dima is from Ye-burg (pun intended), the largest city in the Urals, a region which is in a category of its own. Ural people are known for their peculiar pronunciation of Russian language (that seems becoming somewhat fashionable lately) and being somewhat of a rude character, at least compared to the Moscovites and the Pitertsy. Perhaps people are more introverted in the Urals ? Can't say, I have never been there.

    Regarding the Japanese culture, although I don't know much about it, I believe it is strongly influenced by the clan and caste system where everyone has an assigned role to follow, and also Zen Buddhism where somewhat of an inward looking attitude is sometimes seen as preferable. Although Japanese can be quite eccentric too, I am thinking of Ikkyu Sojun here (Altan wouldn't be happy about me mentioning him) or Mishima.

    Both Russians and Japanese perhaps have in common the fact that they sometimes disregard rational thinking and would seek intuitive insight, something that Westerners mostly avoid.

    Replies: @AP, @Dmitry

    Russians are only introverted when they don’t know other people

    This is the meaning of the introverted society. In the evening with friends, you are joking like Irish at 11am with some unknown tax official they never met before. It’s not less friendly people, but in Irish culture they are spreading it with anyone.

    great deal of regional variation in Russian population.

    Southern Russians are basically identical to the Eastern Ukrainians

    I’m talking about all Russian society including Ukrainians, in comparison to other nationalities. It’s also a more reactive and passive kind of talking.

    If you know often Poles. After an hour, you will often know all their biography, about ten of their opinions about the Second World War, about 5 amusing stories, where they are usually criticizing themselves. And they might, just know your name and profession.

    their peculiar

    Well if your mouth was experiencing the regional cold, you can soon be talking peculiar also.

    Regarding the Japanese

    They mix being friendly as Latinos or Irish, while being introverted as Northern Europeans. (i.e. this introverted/agreeable combination)

    Russians and Japanese perhaps have in common the fact that they sometimes disregard rational thinking and would seek intuitive insight,

    German writers say the same about themselves. But Russian mentality is mainly rational like Northern European. But you can be planting the seeds, ploughing, but the harvest is stolen. While actually lazy romantic nationalities like Irish, are living in an organized society, with more rational political decisions.

    • Replies: @Yevardian
    @Dmitry


    German writers say the same about themselves. But Russian mentality is mainly rational like Northern European. But you can be planting the seeds, ploughing, but the harvest is stolen. While actually lazy romantic nationalities like Irish, are living in an organized society, with more rational political decisions.
     
    I think it's a huge misperception of both foreigners and Slavophiles to see Russians as romantics inclined to mysticism, or as inherently collectivist. What Russians rather do is take Western theories of whatever political stripe or disciplinary background, then they maniacally pursue them to their logical conclusions, usually ending up with pseudo-science or reductio ad absurdum.
    When you notice this, Russians are indeed not so dissimilar from Swedes or Germans, just from a less developed region.

    Isaiah Berlin, Alexander Herzen and Turgenev wrote all about this a long time ago, and I saw in the Sikh's link to Karlin's 'resignation speech' where he's echoing those same old judgements about the Russian national character.

    Also, I thought the Volga accent had been extinct for decades.

    Replies: @Dmitry, @Dmitry, @Coconuts

  893. @Dmitry
    @Ivashka the fool


    Russians are only introverted when they don’t know other people
     
    This is the meaning of the introverted society. In the evening with friends, you are joking like Irish at 11am with some unknown tax official they never met before. It's not less friendly people, but in Irish culture they are spreading it with anyone.

    great deal of regional variation in Russian population.

    Southern Russians are basically identical to the Eastern Ukrainians
     

    I'm talking about all Russian society including Ukrainians, in comparison to other nationalities. It's also a more reactive and passive kind of talking.

    If you know often Poles. After an hour, you will often know all their biography, about ten of their opinions about the Second World War, about 5 amusing stories, where they are usually criticizing themselves. And they might, just know your name and profession.


    their peculiar
     
    Well if your mouth was experiencing the regional cold, you can soon be talking peculiar also.

    Regarding the Japanese

     

    They mix being friendly as Latinos or Irish, while being introverted as Northern Europeans. (i.e. this introverted/agreeable combination)

    Russians and Japanese perhaps have in common the fact that they sometimes disregard rational thinking and would seek intuitive insight,

     

    German writers say the same about themselves. But Russian mentality is mainly rational like Northern European. But you can be planting the seeds, ploughing, but the harvest is stolen. While actually lazy romantic nationalities like Irish, are living in an organized society, with more rational political decisions.

    Replies: @Yevardian

    German writers say the same about themselves. But Russian mentality is mainly rational like Northern European. But you can be planting the seeds, ploughing, but the harvest is stolen. While actually lazy romantic nationalities like Irish, are living in an organized society, with more rational political decisions.

    I think it’s a huge misperception of both foreigners and Slavophiles to see Russians as romantics inclined to mysticism, or as inherently collectivist. What Russians rather do is take Western theories of whatever political stripe or disciplinary background, then they maniacally pursue them to their logical conclusions, usually ending up with pseudo-science or reductio ad absurdum.
    When you notice this, Russians are indeed not so dissimilar from Swedes or Germans, just from a less developed region.

    Isaiah Berlin, Alexander Herzen and Turgenev wrote all about this a long time ago, and I saw in the Sikh’s link to Karlin’s ‘resignation speech’ where he’s echoing those same old judgements about the Russian national character.

    Also, I thought the Volga accent had been extinct for decades.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @Yevardian


    Russians rather do is take Western theories ... pursue them to their logical conclusions, usually ending up with pseudo-science or reductio ad absurdum
     
    This seems like a description of the 20th century.

    Another popular thing, is to internalize the racist stereotypes from Western people, while forgetting the origin was racist stereotype.

    For example, in the 19th century, British media presents the Russian empire as an uncivilized bear that they are supposed to hunt and trap in a cage. But in the early 21st century, this becomes the symbol of the ruling party (United Russia). And it feels like we have selection of politicians based on the poetical association of family names to this animal ("Mishustin", "Medvedev").

    , @Dmitry
    @Yevardian


    olga accent had been
     
    Bashibuzuk was talking about people in Urals' accent, where typically talk a bit faster and a little less exaggerated in intonation, you can say more efficient, as sometimes swallowing consonants or resting less on some vowels. It's not necessarily always accent, but the "rhythm" of speaking can be slightly different, even when the people are speaking classically correctly.

    The popular "folk explanation" for why people are speaking faster in colder parts of Russia, in the Montesquieu way, is because it's colder - losing less heat talking when it's cold.

    But you know in the country, there are usually traces of the "top down", where the people with the "less accent", are "co-incidentally" where the power is.

    Replies: @AP

    , @Coconuts
    @Yevardian


    When you notice this, Russians are indeed not so dissimilar from Swedes or Germans, just from a less developed region.
     
    This is a strong impression I got from being in Belarus, so if Russians are similar to Belarusians (the ones in the West are likely to be?), I'd go along with it.

    The strongest Western cultural influences on Russia, at least until the 1990s, seem to have been German as well.
  894. @AnonfromTN
    @AP


    Don’t they pronounce g as h in Luhansk, as in southern Russia?
     
    Residents of Donbass and Southern Russia pronounce g in their specific way, but it by no means sounds like h. No Lugansk resident would ever write the name of their city using Roman letters as “Luhansk”, they would write “Lugansk”, as they pronounce it.

    And now people in Kharkiv hate Russia like that.
     
    Russian missiles never target civilians, they target troops, military installations, plants that produce or repair weapons and ammo, electric power-generating and distributing plants, and some railway stations (rarely). No Russian rocket ever hit working hospital, school, or kindergarten, in sharp contrast to Ukie criminals.

    It was the same in Lugansk before local freedom fighters kicked Ukie scum far enough from the city. Now Lugansk is safe, although there you clearly see that the war is going on, in contrast to Moscow and other Russian cities, where no signs that the country is at war are visible. This is my first-hand knowledge: I visited Lugansk, Moscow, and Penza in October, 2022.

    Replies: @AP

    Residents of Donbass and Southern Russia pronounce g in their specific way, but it by no means sounds like h

    I have friends from southern Russia, they say havaryt. (though they would write it with a g). But I never heard them mention Luhansk/Luhansk.

    “And now people in Kharkiv hate Russia like that”

    Russian missiles never target civilians, they target troops, military installations, plants that produce or repair weapons and ammo, electric power-generating and distributing plants

    Ukrainians claim the same thing. Meanwhile Kharkiv has been destroyed by the Russians even more than it had been damaged by the Germans. Go to Kharkiv with a big “Z” symbol and you’ll be treated like in Donbas if you had a Bandera poster.

  895. @Yevardian
    @Ivashka the fool

    Curious if Parasite was indeed based on Elena. I personally don't think that had much in common. I thought Elena's main theme was the moral degradation of (Russian) society generally, whilst the tone of 'Parasite' was quite hopeful, and although there was some good black humour, it quickly became on-the-nose in how cheap and obvious it was. 'Many rich people are idiots' has never been an incisive observation.

    I'd agree that 'The Return' remains Zvyagintsev's best film.

    For what it's worth I definitely preferred 'Elena', 'Parasite' had far too many character/plot elements that were just totally unbelievable for me and spoiled my enjoyment of the film. Like in 'Parasite', it becomes clear very early on that the main family characters are all very intelligent and driven, so it made absolutely no sense they'd be living in a hovel, folding pizza boxes for a living (implied to be for years), and then only suddenly cook up a series of clever machiavellian schemes given the first opportunity.

    I thought Burning was a far better Korean film about class that came out the year before (2018). Actually, all of Lee Chang-Dong's films have been brilliant, Peppermint Candy (1999) is a masterpiece, still the best movie I've seen come out of Korea in general.

    Replies: @Greasy William

    was Burning the one about the guy who sets greenhouses on fire? That was a great film but I don’t see what it had to do with class. The villain was rich but it wasn’t like there was any class rivalry or anything

    • Replies: @Yevardian
    @Greasy William


    That was a great film but I don’t see what it had to do with class.
     
    I think Burning very much was, it just didn't repeatedly clobber you over the nose with it like Parasite did.
  896. @Yevardian
    @Dmitry


    German writers say the same about themselves. But Russian mentality is mainly rational like Northern European. But you can be planting the seeds, ploughing, but the harvest is stolen. While actually lazy romantic nationalities like Irish, are living in an organized society, with more rational political decisions.
     
    I think it's a huge misperception of both foreigners and Slavophiles to see Russians as romantics inclined to mysticism, or as inherently collectivist. What Russians rather do is take Western theories of whatever political stripe or disciplinary background, then they maniacally pursue them to their logical conclusions, usually ending up with pseudo-science or reductio ad absurdum.
    When you notice this, Russians are indeed not so dissimilar from Swedes or Germans, just from a less developed region.

    Isaiah Berlin, Alexander Herzen and Turgenev wrote all about this a long time ago, and I saw in the Sikh's link to Karlin's 'resignation speech' where he's echoing those same old judgements about the Russian national character.

    Also, I thought the Volga accent had been extinct for decades.

    Replies: @Dmitry, @Dmitry, @Coconuts

    Russians rather do is take Western theories … pursue them to their logical conclusions, usually ending up with pseudo-science or reductio ad absurdum

    This seems like a description of the 20th century.

    Another popular thing, is to internalize the racist stereotypes from Western people, while forgetting the origin was racist stereotype.

    For example, in the 19th century, British media presents the Russian empire as an uncivilized bear that they are supposed to hunt and trap in a cage. But in the early 21st century, this becomes the symbol of the ruling party (United Russia). And it feels like we have selection of politicians based on the poetical association of family names to this animal (“Mishustin”, “Medvedev”).

  897. Think this might be the funniest ChatGPT that I’ve seen:

    [MORE]

    A lot of ChatGPT seems very wooden to me, but there are occasional gems, where I could almost wonder if it was secretly sentient, and, maybe, only playing dumb (but still trying to influence us.)

  898. @LatW
    @Beckow


    The word “yet” is the key to you argument and the major reason you and I disagree. Yes, a lot of things were ‘not yet’ and you base your rather idealistic expectations about Russia’s behavior on that. But we should agree that a major component of intelligence is the ability to anticipate
     
    Let me first clarify about the missiles. When I was writing it, I was thinking of the Neptune missile that Ukraine had been working on, not of anything that NATO would want to place there (it was out of the question). The Neptune may or may not be finished or even used in the war (don't know a 100%), but it would be a home grown weapon and not a NATO missile. That's why I said, "yet", not because I was anticipating for NATO to eventually set up a lot of armaments in Ukraine, but because such programs were started by Ukraine but not completed (this must have triggered Russia's attention). Without war there wouldn't be any kind of significant Western made armament in Ukraine since NATO was very slow and reluctant.

    However, your point still stands in that Russia plans a 100 years ahead (Russia is also very hawkish about even small military movements in her vicinity). With the long term view in mind, yes, the situation was getting somewhat undesirable for Russia. I admitted this a few years back on this very forum, that most likely if the NATO accession were to become a reality for Ukraine, that Russia would take military action, it was just a question of the scope of that action. But this doesn't take away from my point that they had to means to protect themselves without a large scale war such as now.

    Recently I posted an interview with Arestovych where he discussed this and stated very clearly - "we can't pull off neutrality, our only way to NATO is through a large war". Not sure he realized how big this war would get, but there is another video of him, a much earlier one, either from 2008 or 2011, where he seems to be predicting a large scale occupation of Southern Ukraine.

    We have admitted this. But the goal of the Ukrainian nationalists is not NATO per se, not as an end goal. The goal is establishing real (REAL, not Budapest Memorandum like) security guarantees for Ukraine. Not just for the sake of Ukrainians, but also for Europe, because if we allow a large state (or any state for that matter) that is so close to Europe to be demolished just like that, then that brings major consequences for everyone.

    But the missile issue actually brings us to the crux of the matter and why this whole thing unraveled. Something that wasn't talked about in full seriousness for 30 years (with the exception of very few EE politicians, which is actually pretty scandalous). That there is a huge security vacuum. In 1991 everyone disarmed, Ukraine was, as we see now, treacherously disarmed by outsiders from both sides. However, very quickly Russia restarted their MIC, fought wars quite actively. Russia was preparing to fight but we weren't (NATO accession is a serious but insufficient step). Ukraine always had an MIC but only started taking it seriously after 2014. So these issues from 1991 were not resolved in principle. To resolve them politically may not have been enough, because it is Russia's way to take what they can, when they can (which is when they feel like it). Thus some kind of a military deterrent had to be established (but wasn't).

    Your more pompous argument that Russia has no extraterritorial rights
     
    Let's use correct language here. Extraterritorial rights mostly apply to diplomatic immunity, diplomatic missions in general and such. There are universal human rights, European human rights and there is national sovereignty. The nation has sovereignty to implement the protection of these rights in a way that is suitable for the given nation (every nation has different circumstances), to the best of their ability in order to observe basic human rights principles. In Ukraine's case, I'm afraid we are way past this point, as right now the right to life of Ukrainian's themselves is violated daily.

    You might want to tread carefully here, because if we use this principle in an absolutist way, soon enough all kinds of non-European groups will spring up in Europe demanding "extraterritorial rights" and what not. We are already seeing that in Northern Europe and the UK. The Eastern Europeans should avoid that route at all costs.

    Again, I believe that neither of these two, NATO or the changed situation for Russian speakers (which wasn't even immediate, although the threat of it was), is the main cause of the war. Those are definitely triggers and points of major irritation or provocation (in Russias opinion), but the main reason is much bigger - decoupling of Ukraine from the Russian space, the change in Ukraine's geopolitical orientation, the discarding of the post-Soviet Ukrainian identity in favor of the original, God given Ukrainian national identity.

    If it were just about "Russian speakers' rights", Russia would go out of her way to salvage as many as possible.

    Russia would not have abandoned them in 2014. What Russia in fact did, is come in, help instigate the uprising, rile people up, arm people who were already unsatisfied with the changing situation (rightfully, from their POV), come in for one or two operations (Northern Wind, Illovaisk) and then not finish the job and let the problem fester. There is a lot of talk and regret about this among Russian imperialist nationalists.

    And then now, to come back and kill so many? Do you realize that most of those dispossessed and killed, maimed and tortured are Russophones? Yes, many Ukrainian and many Russian speaking Ukrainian nationalists... but they are still carriers of the language. Their children won't be that way anymore.

    Anyway, to wage a war on population... in a manner that we're seeing now, kind of cancels all those points out anyway.

    no right to security
     
    Where did I say Russia has no right to security? They have plenty of territory and resources from which to project their force, if needed. They are not going to have what they had prior to 1991, period. They need to accept that. They already have Kaliningrad which is more than what they've historically EVER had and what they could not have conquered on their own, they have it because the Anglos helped them. And they have Crimea. And Belarus. That's a lot! And it's plenty to secure oneself. I would imagine that that's a lot of work already.

    They have actually compromised their own security via this "SMO". They are less secure now. You start messing with such large borders, it can go either way (btw, did you notice how previously, even when they were aggressive, they used to take much smaller bites out of other countries, but now they attacked the capital and took on a population of 35M + millions in diaspora!!!). This is a gamble, if they don't succeed, and if there is an internal shake up of some sort, their security will be even more compromised.

    In the McGregor video that was posted above, he refers to Manchukuo as an undesirable outcome for Americans in case of instability around Russia's periphery. It is quite telling that Americans fear this. If the RF lose a major war (such as this one), all kinds of things can happen and it will be their own doing! Even if it doesn't happen, if the possibility of potential chaos rises from 0.1% to 2%, that is already compromised security.


    Of course, Russia has and will have say in those matters – as will US or UK, France or China in their neighborhood.
     
    I don't now about China, but those countries do not use their "co-ethnics" as a means to destabilize other countries and as pretexts to invade other countries. That completely changes the whole equation because you're not acting in good spirit.

    your complete inability to even address that is puzzling
     
    Well, when did NATO last have a major operation that destroyed a country's capital, especially on the European continent, that caused millions of refugees, hundreds of thousands killed? I'm not saying NATO or certain groups of countries within NATO did things right, just when has such a major invasion taken place last? I'd say the last most horrific event is Syria but it's different there (several parties are ravaging one country there).

    Money leaves Russia totally unrelated to this war, it always has.
     
    And this is supposed to be good or even normalized? If Russia kept her money and used it to improve, they could create a fantastic Candyland that all the neighbors would marvel and the neighbors would stop viewing Russia with contempt. This would mollify things and reduce bad feelings. They were already on track for that, btw, because the last 5 or so years before Covid and the war, were prosperous everywhere, in Central Eastern Europe and in Russia, too.

    And “place their missiles…“, what the hell is that supposed to mean?
     
    Exactly what I wrote. There were no Iskander in Kaliningrad for decades, but since just a few years ago there are (prior to 2014, btw). In the south, around the Black Sea, it's similar now and now the security of the Black Sea states is compromised. The overall picture is much much worse than it was.

    Why doesn’t Latvia or Ukraine, or even US and UK work on strengthening within instead of parading missiles on Russia’s borders?
     
    Let me clarify - Ukraine and Latvia should strengthen themselves (by taking Israel or Finland as examples), then the US or UK will not be as needed (although the UK will always be relevant, that relationship will grow).

    You seem to have a complete inability to see the others as having equal rights…in this case Russia.

     

    As I already said - "rights" are not given on a platter, one has to assert their "rights" (let's be honest here, not rights but power and domination) intelligently. Once you start using outward violence, all kinds of unpredictable things can happen. As happened in this case. The human factor can be very volatile and we see that the human factor employed here turned out more volatile than was assumed (Ukrainian fighting spirit, support from Western public, corruption in RF, bailing of a million potential Russian conscripts, even rise of private military companies which are not as stable as regular military organizations, not to mention the human factor in high level politicians, diplomats, etc).

    I see Russia as all others, neither better nor worse, they have as much right to security as you do, or as US does. Accept that and we can move forward.

     
    Talk that way about Hungarians, please. Or Germans. Or Anglos. Even if those issues may be resolved. You see Russia very differently than those who engage with her. Engage directly with a much larger, aggressive high IQ white, then we can talk. Then you can show me how brave and chill and "indifferent" you are.

    Well, at least we agree on Pavel and his type :)
     
    I didn't say he was tarnished, I just described how some of these post-Communist issues come back to haunt us. I'd prefer to keep an open mind in his case.

    Having met him in person, my expectations are very low (he drinks quite a bit)
     
    You saw him imbibe a little too much at a state banquet...? LOL. Yea, it's not great for a head of state to imbibe, but he looks like he can handle it. Btw, a photo came out of him hiking somewhere in the mountains with him carrying a large keg of beer on his back. I thought that was an awesome photo, bet then, for a second I thought, wait a minute, he is taking all that beer with him on a hiking trip?? Well, I'm sure he shared it with his buddies. Haha!

    but he is soft-spoken, calm and looks ‘presidential‘
     
    Yes, he looks very calm and mellow. He could build a dignified image. You're saying there will be zero difference, maybe. But I have a feeling he will throw out some pro-Atlanticist tricks here and there, like, he called Taiwan as one of the first things. You'll probably say that it's just unneeded "noise"...

    Replies: @Beckow

    if the NATO accession were to become a reality for Ukraine, that Russia would take military action, it was just a question of the scope of that action. But this doesn’t take away from my point that they had to means to protect themselves without a large scale war such as now.

    What were those means? A smaller war? Or to line up endless missiles on their border with Ukraine and wait for the spark? You are really not saying anything with your meandering evasive discourse. Russia said that Kiev in Nato – with all that would eventually mean – is a red line, a war. That’s what we have. The scale is up to the warriors, as always…remember ‘shock-and-awe’ over Baghdad or ‘we will bomb you to Middle Ages’ over Serbia? You can’t be that dense, why would you deny that Nato did that?

    Russia plans a 100 years ahead (Russia is also very hawkish about even small military movements in her vicinity). With the long term view in mind, yes, the situation was getting somewhat undesirable for Russia.

    Where did you come with 100 years? A rhetoric refuge because you lost the argument? How about 20 years or 5 years? It doesn’t take long to arm a country and threaten its neighbor. Let’s also drop the casual anti-Russian racism, countries like US, China, UK, France plan for long term, even 100 years.

    when did NATO last have a major operation that destroyed a country’s capital, especially on the European continent

    Serbia. Beograd is a lot closer to core Europe then Kiev. You can’t be serious pretending that you don’t know it. Nato attacked Serbia, and then Iraq, Syria, Libya…millions of refugees, maybe a million dead, destroyed countries. Don’t tell us that you missed that – but your whole writing falls apart since you pretend that it didn’t happen. Address it, or stop telling nonsense – “first time blabla…”…I am puzzled why would you try to do this.

    Regarding military vacuum post-1991 in EE: it was a good thing! we grew, people invested, we had better economies. Nobody needed to start confronting Russia, pulling Ukraine (or Georgia) into Nato, preparing for the next conflict. Whether Russia be rearming in the last 10-15 years contributed to it is a classical chicken-and-egg dilemma. But we all know that without Nato threats – and some really nutty anti-Russian nationalist fanatics – nothing would happen.

    Where did I say Russia has no right to security? They have plenty of territory and resources from which to project their force… They already have Kaliningrad

    So does US, Canada, even France. Would you suggest to them to be cool with all that hinterland nobody can attack them? Again your double-standards. Large territory also means that you have more to defend – so that whole argument is rather irrelevant to what we are discussing.

    Russia paid with millions of lives in WW2 to get time Kaliningrad (Poland for some reason grabbed an equal piece of the old Prussia and nobody ever wants to mention that – kind of like you don’t like to mention the Nato attack on Serbia.) Anglos had nothing to do with it, stop re-writing WW2 history.

    Russian national rights…

    You are seem to be blind to recent history: would France allow French speakers in Belgium to be oppressed? Did UK leave its “Anglos” to their fate in Ulster? Etc…Nato waged a brutal war for the “extraterritorial rights” of Albanians in Kosovo and Moslems in Bosnia. Do you really not know any of this?

    Finally the Pavel’s unfortunate call to Taiwan – the first one by a third country in decades: he is guided to create havoc, to push the boundaries. That is neither relevant to most Czechs not smart. Given that he is no role on policy – he is ‘ceremonial’ – we will probably get a lot of these random kicks. They mean nothing and they undermine his reputation as a calmer person who gets along. But we will see, if he does a lot of these, his popularity – and influence – will wane. Czechs are a lot of things, outspoken, arrogant, but they never engage in pointless heroism or wars. Pavel knows this so he will adjust.

    • Replies: @Emil Nikola Richard
    @Beckow


    You can’t be serious pretending that you don’t know it. Nato attacked Serbia, and then Iraq, Syria, Libya…millions of refugees, maybe a million dead, destroyed countries.
     
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t0hK1wyrrAU&ab_channel=Wimbledon
    , @LatW
    @Beckow


    Where did you come with 100 years? A rhetoric refuge because you lost the argument? How about 20 years or 5 years? It doesn’t take long to arm a country and threaten its neighbor. Let’s also drop the casual anti-Russian racism, countries like US, China, UK, France plan for long term, even 100 years.
     
    It's just figurative speech for "long term". This wasn't meant as anything negative, on the contrary. Why are you so defensive? How is this "anti-Russian racism"? If I wanted to do "anti-Russian racism", I'd be saying completely different things.

    Yes, Russia plans long term, so even if NATO didn't place anything in Ukraine, they would still be suspicious. It's cautious behavior. The problem with it is that one can make up any kind of threat and use it as pretext. Which they've historically done a lot. Stalin was going around shooting people because he was seeing foreign spies everywhere (among his own population), same mentality.

    I wasn't disagreeing with you about NATO in Russia's vicinity. But you very conveniently avoided my most important point - about security guarantees to Ukraine and others around Russia. Your suggestion to just "suck it up" doesn't work (historically proven not to work). So I'm assuming that you just believe that Russia should be allowed to do anything, but those who are Russia's targets need to be demilitarized. And that kind of an approach doesn't solve the problem. So you can't propose a viable solution.

    Russia doesn't accept an independent Ukraine. Imagine there is no NATO, but Ukraine still wants to be the way they want to be since 2014. Russia wouldn't accept that. The problem is deeper than just NATO.


    Serbia. Beograd is a lot closer to core Europe then Kiev. You can’t be serious pretending that you don’t know it.
     
    If you had read my comment more carefully - I asked when did such a conflict take place on European soil last (not if). It's been 24 years but you talk as if NATO does this in Europe every other year. NATO troops never walked into people's homes, raping women and stealing things.

    The air strikes, while harsh, lasted from 24 March 1999 to 10 June 1999. So a couple of months (of course, it is still very tragic). How long has Russia been striking Ukraine with missiles now? Either way, the intervention into the Yugoslav wars does not justify invasion of Ukraine.

    Do you realize that the same criticisms you have for Ukraine could be used against Serbia as well? "Do not provoke your neighbors", "don't be nationalist chauvinist", "do not be aggressive", "observe others' rights", etc.

    You talk as if all those years Russia never waged a single war, when Russia was actively waging several wars.

    Regarding military vacuum post-1991 in EE: it was a good thing! we grew, people invested, we had better economies.
     
    Yes, it was good (although the Baltic States were never fully safe). It was a lull. It lasted a bit because Russia was weak, as soon as Russia grew stronger, which coincided with the oil boom, problems began. Of course, the deterioration of the relationship is not all Russia's fault, but to ignore these underlying dynamics is disingenuous.

    Btw, speaking of "people invested" - investments are still growing in EE (except Ukraine, of course), regardless of all this mess.

    So does US, Canada, even France. Would you suggest to them to be cool with all that hinterland nobody can attack them?
     
    Where do you see those countries going around and invading and murdering their neighbors? And, yes, those countries have major buffers and a lot of depth, so when it comes to the defense of their own soil, they're ok. As would be Russia by just placing missiles along periphery (which they've done).

    Large territory also means that you have more to defend – so that whole argument is rather irrelevant to what we are discussing.
     
    That's exactly what I was saying! There is more than enough work with defending the existing territory without getting into crazy escapades. Now in the last minute they are rushing to place anti-defense on their roofs in Moscow (as if those things shouldn't have been there already). If the invasion doesn't succeed and they're not able to hold what they've invaded, the Ukrainian troops will keep pushing them back and in the worst case scenarios all of those Russian border areas could be on fire and the war could continue there. Do they have enough protection there?

    Kaliningrad (Poland for some reason grabbed an equal piece of the old Prussia and nobody ever wants to mention that
     
    Poland has more rights to Kaliningrad than Russia - Northern Poland has many assimilated Old Prussians who are the original population of East Prussia, so it makes sense. Apparently, Stalin wanted to give Kaliningrad to Lithuania. Poland was present in that region since antiquity, so Poland didn't "grab" anything. Russia has never been in Kaliningrad before 1945. Why was this region still militarized after 1991, if all was so good, why was this region militarized further by placing Iskander there?

    Anglos had nothing to do with it, stop re-writing WW2 history.
     
    Anglos had everything to do with it, had Anglos not been Stalin's allies and provided all that help, Kaliningrad would never become Soviet/Russian, which it has never been historically.

    You are seem to be blind to recent history: would France allow French speakers in Belgium to be oppressed? Did UK leave its “Anglos” to their fate in Ulster?
     
    Those countries did not walk into other countries and didn't start murdering people. Wrong comparisons. Everyone cares about their co-ethnics, but not everyone uses them to achieve geopolitical goals and to invade (and try to destroy another ethnicity). What is more absurd now is that Russia is killing the carriers of the Russian language. Maybe they will realize only later how self-destructive this is.

    Given that he is no role on policy – he is ‘ceremonial’ – we will probably get a lot of these random kicks.
     
    I understand the part about his role not being executive, but these days public diplomacy just means so much. He seems to be interested in the whole world, not just his region. It's up to him if he wants to be just the president of Czechia or something more. I'm more interested in what he might contribute to the European defense capability, even with just words of encouragement.

    It looks like he'd be ready to visit Ukraine soon with your president. Ukraine is hoping that he will help coordinate the assistance, obviously he is well informed about all the possibilities (as former military), that he will become one of the key moderators, in fact.

    Replies: @LatW, @songbird, @Beckow

  899. @songbird
    @Yahya


    >That is what Jordan Peterson advocates. BTW, do you know that he recently came out for regime change in Iran?

    Is the second sentence supposed to follow from the first?
     
    Some people say he has always been a tool of the establishment. Promoting individualism among Euros, while also promoting Zionism. That's why he was promoted and achieved his fame and fortune. Right now, he is working for Ben Shapiro.

    https://twitter.com/RyLiberty/status/1618204909329080325?s=20&t=9o64v4_O0hM8J1v1yltw9g
    https://youtu.be/TeAWbUl22FU

    But I support regime change in Iran too
     
    He appears to be supporting America-led regime change. Seems fairly likely that he is influenced by Zionism.

    https://twitter.com/PrisonPlanet/status/1620850938532761601?s=20&t=9o64v4_O0hM8J1v1yltw9g

    Irish-Americans like Ted Kennedy played a major role in passing the Immigration and Nationality Act of 1965; which I presume you think is one of the defining pieces of legislation to have ruined in America. So you have to own up to it
     
    . A lot wrong with this argument. I'll just mention a few things.

    Civil War was fought without any significant Irish political influence. Lincoln did away with all sorts of rights, and imposed an income tax, all without Irish involvement (if anything Irish immigrants were against it), unless you count the importation of unwilling meat bags for the army.

    Australia had no Puritans. Irish were completely foundational, without any caveats. They had a whites only policy, until they started to follow America's lead.

    Have you seen who voted (in Congress) for the Civil Rights Act? Hint: more Republicans than Dems (though most the Dems were objecting for bad reasons) Anyway, takeaway is Congress was completely cucked. Both sides of it.

    Elections matter very little. Who believes that the American public ever voted to open the borders to the Third World? No country did, but here we are. What matters only is elite opinion.

    Final thing I'd mention is that a lot of people pointing to the Irish have various shortcomings, and have had them historically. Disraeli did it (NOT English). Academic Agent does it now (NOT English). Scott Greer does it (doesn't want to talk about who really holds power because he understands the consequences.)

    But sorry; the idea just doesn’t hold water for African-Americans.
     
    I was trying to prompt you to refine your argument. But you still seem stuck on the construction "because they are citizens." IMO, a rather inelegant justification because we can virtually extend it to any geography based on the one-time loophole of anyone being granted citizenship, through any corrupt, but legal or else elite-approved process.

    I suspect that you really want to say "because they were slaves," which would have the merit of being geographically-limiting. Or, maybe, that you are grandfathered in after a similar period of time, or number of generations, whatever your origin or effect on society. (Woe to Europe!) But I don't want try to argue your case for you.

    Again, just very hypocritical to call them invaders and intruders.
     
    They don't support freedom of association. That's a foundational value, and means that they have invaded and intruded into countless places and organizations.

    Anyway, to be a hypocrite, I'd have to be inconsistent in my own views, but I am not. My views are that blacks don't have the same civilizational capacity (broadly speaking - theoretically, they could be segregated into more functional fractions) And that it's been a disaster for Euros to pretend that they do, and far from all the damage already being done and the dust-settled, or us being able to rebuild, it is a growing disaster, with potentially no upper limit.

    I'm not a loon for thinking so either. Seventy years after the Irish arrived in masse, Boston was still a fairly normal place. But what is it like seventy years after blacks started arriving in masse?

    https://twitter.com/GraceSm73368432/status/1620359457585926144?s=20&t=9o64v4_O0hM8J1v1yltw9g

    How many is “a lot”?
     
    South practically wasn't planting cotton until about 1794. Have you heard of Jim Bowie? Pretty famous here, there's a knife named after him, and he died at the Alamo. Most don't know he was a slave smuggler, started in about 1818. Who knows exactly how many? But I'd be very surprised if it wasn't a large number because the financial inducements were there. Bowie didn't do it based on principles, but for money. (just think of illegal immigration today)

    Do you really think; if we trace back the ancestry of African and Irish Americans; that your people would on average be of older stock than blacks?
     
    Chronological arrival argument is a faulty one, IMO.

    Are blacks supposed to be "foundational?" They couldn't vote. Abolitionism was partly a movement to prevent the Midwest from becoming populated with blacks. Abe Lincoln said they'd have to be resettled, if they were freed because it would destroy society, since they lacked the same capacities. At first, he wanted to settle them in Central America (not USA), but Central Americans were incensed and opposed the plan.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linconia

    Replies: @S, @Coconuts, @S, @Yahya

    Civil War was fought without any significant Irish political influence. Lincoln did away with all sorts of rights, and imposed an income tax, all without Irish involvement (if anything Irish immigrants were against it), unless you count the importation of unwilling meat bags for the army.

    There’s a good scene in the Gangs of New York set in Civil War era New York City which touches on how the wage slavery system (ie the so called cheap labor/mass immigration system), besides first and foremost being about avoiding paying the prevailing real time local labor rates to one’s own people via importing alien wage slaves, is a divide and rule scheme readily built into it besides.

    It shows the Anglo-Saxon Bill the Butcher and his gang of Anglos at the dock being displaced in real time by newly arriving Irish wage slaves, who in turn are to be displaced in time by Polock, Portuguese, and Syrian wage slaves,who in turn will be displaced by imported Chinese who will work for far less, ad nauseum.

    The movie touches on these things, but the reality is far worse than what it shows, as the wage slavery system of the more commercially oriented US North is simply the monetization of chattel slavery and it’s trade, the ‘immigrant’ from a financial point of view being the slave.

    The Civil War itself was therefore fought for slavery by both ‘sides’, and to determine which of the two, chattel or wage, would prevail over the land as the more profitable and productive way to go about systematically stealing the value or another’s labor.

    Get destroyed ultimately on the slow path with chattel slavery, or get destroyed on the fast path, ie mere decades with wage slavery

    It was thereforea no win situation for the soldiers fighting on either side involved, that is unless the guns had been turned upon the Northern and Southern elites and their hangers on, instead of upon each other, and a true abolition of slavery (both chattel and wage) enacted instead.

    That’s what should have happened, but alas, didn’t. 🙁

    [MORE]

    • Replies: @songbird
    @S

    Yes, that was a very good scene. Wouldn't say that I am an especial fanboy of Scorsese - haven't seen most of his movies and some famous ones, like Raging Bull I found unappealing. But I really do wonder if it took a Catholic to make a movie like that.

    Maybe, it is a mistake to attribute it all to the director. (And at least one of the writers was half-Jewish). But to compare it to another movie that seemed to have heavier Jewish involvement, if not a Jewish director (actually the director shared an ancestor with Mitt Romney), An American Tail, there's seems to be a sharp contrast in themes. (Or at least as far as I can recall, my memory of it is pretty poor). And those seem to be the predominant themes of Hollywood.

    Unfortunately, Gangs of New York was marred a bit by a very horrible song by U2, after they had really declined.

    Replies: @S

  900. @AP
    @HeavilyMarbledSteak


    Ok, but if Christians didn’t arrogantly question Judaism, they wouldn’t exist… So all those things I am arrogantly questioning themselves arose out of arrogantly questioning earlier things
     
    Thanks for admitting that all along your goal is to displace and replace Christianity, as Christianity did to traditional Judaism.

    So you are an enemy of Christianity.

    Just so we know where you stand.

    But I’m glad you’re conceding a bit on work and realizing it is not
     
    Translation:

    You invent fiction about me being some sort of workaholic, then when I correct your weird fantasy, you falsely claim that I conceded something.

    Replies: @HeavilyMarbledSteak, @Barbarossa

    Um, as far as I can recall, Judaism is still with us, and has not exactly been replaced lol.

    But yes, modern Christianity has become basically like the Pharisees of old, it has become what it tried to replace, as we see in you, and therefore the true message must be restored once again.

    Happens all the time to every religion. Judaism too has become like the Near Eastern idol worship it tried to replace and needs a restoration. Happened to Judaism in the time of Jesus too.

    It’s no big deal, but we have to deal with it, that’s all.

    • Replies: @Sher Singh
    @HeavilyMarbledSteak

    Modernity is a Protestant meme. Non-violence, gender equality are anti-Sikh.
    Restoration comes with political change ie overthrow liberalism establish Raj.

    @Yevardian No matter how much you try to ingratiate yourself with Whites by hating Sikhs:

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11674357/Sikh-hero-gives-emotional-speech-Australian-Year-awards-winners-revealed.html

    It fails.


    ਸੋਫੀ ਸ਼ੂੰਮ ਪੰਥ ਨਹਿ ਰਾਖਨ । ਕਿਯ ਕਿਸ ਦਾਰੁਨ ਕੇ ਅਭਿਲਾਖਨ । [The Guru commanded] "I will not keep misers and teetotalers in my Panth, [my Singhs] will have the desire for vicious warfare."
     
    ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫਤਹਿ
    , @AP
    @HeavilyMarbledSteak


    Um, as far as I can recall, Judaism is still with us, and has not exactly been replaced lol
     
    It's certainly been eclipsed and left behind. Your wish for Christianity.

    But yes, modern Christianity has become basically like the Pharisees of old
     
    No, it hasn't but it makes sense that someone seeking to destroy it would say that.

    it has become what it tried to replace, as we see in you
     
    Yet again you place me in your fantasies, that are more about you than about me.
  901. @Yevardian
    @Dmitry


    German writers say the same about themselves. But Russian mentality is mainly rational like Northern European. But you can be planting the seeds, ploughing, but the harvest is stolen. While actually lazy romantic nationalities like Irish, are living in an organized society, with more rational political decisions.
     
    I think it's a huge misperception of both foreigners and Slavophiles to see Russians as romantics inclined to mysticism, or as inherently collectivist. What Russians rather do is take Western theories of whatever political stripe or disciplinary background, then they maniacally pursue them to their logical conclusions, usually ending up with pseudo-science or reductio ad absurdum.
    When you notice this, Russians are indeed not so dissimilar from Swedes or Germans, just from a less developed region.

    Isaiah Berlin, Alexander Herzen and Turgenev wrote all about this a long time ago, and I saw in the Sikh's link to Karlin's 'resignation speech' where he's echoing those same old judgements about the Russian national character.

    Also, I thought the Volga accent had been extinct for decades.

    Replies: @Dmitry, @Dmitry, @Coconuts

    olga accent had been

    Bashibuzuk was talking about people in Urals’ accent, where typically talk a bit faster and a little less exaggerated in intonation, you can say more efficient, as sometimes swallowing consonants or resting less on some vowels. It’s not necessarily always accent, but the “rhythm” of speaking can be slightly different, even when the people are speaking classically correctly.

    The popular “folk explanation” for why people are speaking faster in colder parts of Russia, in the Montesquieu way, is because it’s colder – losing less heat talking when it’s cold.

    But you know in the country, there are usually traces of the “top down”, where the people with the “less accent”, are “co-incidentally” where the power is.

    • Replies: @AP
    @Dmitry


    Bashibuzuk was talking about people in Urals’ accent, where typically talk a bit faster and a little less exaggerated in intonation, you can say more efficient, as sometimes swallowing consonants or resting less on some vowels
     
    I noticed it too when I was there.

    The popular “folk explanation” for why people are speaking faster in colder parts of Russia, in the Montesquieu way, is because it’s colder – losing less heat talking when it’s cold.
     
    Lviv Ukrainian is like that too, compared to standard Ukrainian. I don't mean the Galician dialect, but the way they speak the regular Ukrainian language, it's more abrupt, a bit less melodic. And Lviv is somewhat milder than other parts of Ukraine.

    It (and the Urals way of speaking) isn't harsher, just clipped.

    My German is much poorer than my Ukrainian and Russian, but it seems to me based on several visits to both countries that Austrian is also more clipped like that, compared to German from Germany. Because Germany is a harsh language, Austrian German comes out sounding softer because it is more brief. Again, not dialect, but the regular language.
  902. @A123
    @Beckow


    still have not seen a rational description of how Russia will be defeated.
    ...
    It was a catastrophic misjudgment by Nato planners and their Kiev over-eager acolytes…they planned and planned without ever accounting for what to do if Russia wakes up and starts shooting seriously.
     
    I have had a similar analysis gap. This was never winnable for Kiev agression.

    • What if it is not a misjudgment?
    • What if this is the desired outcome for European Elites?
    • What if Zelensky is a patsy (or a collaborator) in a plan to intentionally break Ukraine?

    All of the apparently inane decisions suddenly fit a pattern if a "military win" was never the goal.

    PEACE 😇

    Replies: @Beckow

    …What if it is not a misjudgment?

    My humble opinion is that it is basically stupidity. Some hubris, short-term thinking – next media cycle or elections, some plain old evil ethnic seeking revenge.

    I agree that among the few smarter ones the idea of losing in Ukraine, breaking it up, putting up a new iron curtain is not the worst outcome given the available choices. Once the neo-con Sturm nach Osten got underway this was inevitable – other than the details and timing. It is a consequence of the original misjudgment, but I don’t think anyone planned it.

    Since the military win is not possible, they will just destroy the place, kill a lot of Ukies, use up ammunition, get richer – then move on as they always do. It is a strategic equivalent of crapping in the drawer on the way out after losing a lease…for some reason these sophisticated Washingtonians always do that…

    • Replies: @A123
    @Beckow



    …What if it is not a misjudgment?
     
    My humble opinion is that it is basically stupidity. Some hubris, short-term thinking – next media cycle or elections, some plain old evil ethnic seeking revenge.
     
    Hmmmm..... How does one tell idiocy from malice?

    • If Zelensky is merely stupid, and doing the best he can -- Random chance would have the Kiev regime make decent decisions from time to time.

    • If Zelensky is a patsy or complicit -- The track record of Kiev actions would be near 100% flawed.

    Which of these better describes the observed decisions made in Ukraine? Statistically speaking, the latter seems much more probable than the former. I concede this is not direct proof.

    However, EU actions strongly suggest they want the chaos. They are accepting obviously forged credentials from vast numbers of MENA origin migrants. And, they are not requiring these fraudsters to enter the enter from Ukraine. At least ⅓, possibly more, "Ukrainian Refugees" are not from Ukraine.

    Looking at the whole regional situation conveys strategy, not randomness. European Elites are pulling strings across the board, not just in Ukraine. A major reason why Kiev cannot score a "military win" is -- Their theoretical backers in Europe do not want them to win.

    Extending the chaos is a feature, not a bug.

    PEACE 😇

  903. @Greasy William
    @Yevardian

    was Burning the one about the guy who sets greenhouses on fire? That was a great film but I don't see what it had to do with class. The villain was rich but it wasn't like there was any class rivalry or anything

    Replies: @Yevardian

    That was a great film but I don’t see what it had to do with class.

    I think Burning very much was, it just didn’t repeatedly clobber you over the nose with it like Parasite did.

  904. @Ivashka the fool
    @LatW


    Do you know the phrase “We can repeat it” (Можем повторить)? It’s their favorite phrase to throw around. As if there are no others out there who can also repeat things they’ve done.
     
    Only idiots repeat their mistakes twice. And I tell you that as a Fool !

    You have of course understood the sexual/Freudian undertones of the "We can repeat it !" slogan ? That's RusFed "patriotism" in a nutshell: in a country colonized by the Noviop, where most ethnic Russians are seen as worthy less than most Vainakhs or Dags, to walk around pretending that one is a mighty conqueror waiting to take turns in the "rape of Berlin".

    Compensation much.

    Yes that's gopnik's talk, not even vor's talk but the talk of some shpana near the "parasha". Nothing serious really.

    And speaking of nothing serious, I don't believe Boris Johnson when he says that Pynya has threatened him. Pynya is too cowardly for that, while BoJo is even more of a clown than Zelensky is.

    https://ic.pics.livejournal.com/matveychev_oleg/27303223/31052882/31052882_original.jpg

    I guess you recognize the pair in the middle. They look sweet. Supposedly the picture has been taken in New York on the Gay Pride parade in 1999, although I am of course not certain of this at all.

    🙂

    Replies: @LatW, @Mr. Hack, @Dmitry

    Russians are seen as worthy less

    This is not accurate, nobody is less worthy. In the 21st century’s feudal-capitalism, young people from every nationality is equally worthy, for example, to thank their masters for an opportunity to work, in the warehouse, that imports Chinese products for the now more captive (removal of foreign competition, exit of IKEA etc) local market. No nationality is above another for this opportunity to work for $1,80 per hour.

  905. Big Serge ☦️🇺🇸🇷🇺
    @witte_sergei
    An Australian volunteer on the Bakhmut axis describes Wagner and Russian forces as well equipped and sophisticated, with outstanding ISR (Intel, Surveillance, Reconnaissance). Says “human wave” stories about Russian tactics are untrue, and the Ukrainians are simply overmatched.

    [MORE]

  906. @songbird
    @Yahya


    >That is what Jordan Peterson advocates. BTW, do you know that he recently came out for regime change in Iran?

    Is the second sentence supposed to follow from the first?
     
    Some people say he has always been a tool of the establishment. Promoting individualism among Euros, while also promoting Zionism. That's why he was promoted and achieved his fame and fortune. Right now, he is working for Ben Shapiro.

    https://twitter.com/RyLiberty/status/1618204909329080325?s=20&t=9o64v4_O0hM8J1v1yltw9g
    https://youtu.be/TeAWbUl22FU

    But I support regime change in Iran too
     
    He appears to be supporting America-led regime change. Seems fairly likely that he is influenced by Zionism.

    https://twitter.com/PrisonPlanet/status/1620850938532761601?s=20&t=9o64v4_O0hM8J1v1yltw9g

    Irish-Americans like Ted Kennedy played a major role in passing the Immigration and Nationality Act of 1965; which I presume you think is one of the defining pieces of legislation to have ruined in America. So you have to own up to it
     
    . A lot wrong with this argument. I'll just mention a few things.

    Civil War was fought without any significant Irish political influence. Lincoln did away with all sorts of rights, and imposed an income tax, all without Irish involvement (if anything Irish immigrants were against it), unless you count the importation of unwilling meat bags for the army.

    Australia had no Puritans. Irish were completely foundational, without any caveats. They had a whites only policy, until they started to follow America's lead.

    Have you seen who voted (in Congress) for the Civil Rights Act? Hint: more Republicans than Dems (though most the Dems were objecting for bad reasons) Anyway, takeaway is Congress was completely cucked. Both sides of it.

    Elections matter very little. Who believes that the American public ever voted to open the borders to the Third World? No country did, but here we are. What matters only is elite opinion.

    Final thing I'd mention is that a lot of people pointing to the Irish have various shortcomings, and have had them historically. Disraeli did it (NOT English). Academic Agent does it now (NOT English). Scott Greer does it (doesn't want to talk about who really holds power because he understands the consequences.)

    But sorry; the idea just doesn’t hold water for African-Americans.
     
    I was trying to prompt you to refine your argument. But you still seem stuck on the construction "because they are citizens." IMO, a rather inelegant justification because we can virtually extend it to any geography based on the one-time loophole of anyone being granted citizenship, through any corrupt, but legal or else elite-approved process.

    I suspect that you really want to say "because they were slaves," which would have the merit of being geographically-limiting. Or, maybe, that you are grandfathered in after a similar period of time, or number of generations, whatever your origin or effect on society. (Woe to Europe!) But I don't want try to argue your case for you.

    Again, just very hypocritical to call them invaders and intruders.
     
    They don't support freedom of association. That's a foundational value, and means that they have invaded and intruded into countless places and organizations.

    Anyway, to be a hypocrite, I'd have to be inconsistent in my own views, but I am not. My views are that blacks don't have the same civilizational capacity (broadly speaking - theoretically, they could be segregated into more functional fractions) And that it's been a disaster for Euros to pretend that they do, and far from all the damage already being done and the dust-settled, or us being able to rebuild, it is a growing disaster, with potentially no upper limit.

    I'm not a loon for thinking so either. Seventy years after the Irish arrived in masse, Boston was still a fairly normal place. But what is it like seventy years after blacks started arriving in masse?

    https://twitter.com/GraceSm73368432/status/1620359457585926144?s=20&t=9o64v4_O0hM8J1v1yltw9g

    How many is “a lot”?
     
    South practically wasn't planting cotton until about 1794. Have you heard of Jim Bowie? Pretty famous here, there's a knife named after him, and he died at the Alamo. Most don't know he was a slave smuggler, started in about 1818. Who knows exactly how many? But I'd be very surprised if it wasn't a large number because the financial inducements were there. Bowie didn't do it based on principles, but for money. (just think of illegal immigration today)

    Do you really think; if we trace back the ancestry of African and Irish Americans; that your people would on average be of older stock than blacks?
     
    Chronological arrival argument is a faulty one, IMO.

    Are blacks supposed to be "foundational?" They couldn't vote. Abolitionism was partly a movement to prevent the Midwest from becoming populated with blacks. Abe Lincoln said they'd have to be resettled, if they were freed because it would destroy society, since they lacked the same capacities. At first, he wanted to settle them in Central America (not USA), but Central Americans were incensed and opposed the plan.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linconia

    Replies: @S, @Coconuts, @S, @Yahya

    Or, maybe, that you are grandfathered in after a similar period of time, or number of generations, whatever your origin or effect on society. (Woe to Europe!) But I don’t want try to argue your case for you.

    Unfortunately the era of mass immigration into Europe is correlating with a steady fall in the numbers of the historic majority ethnic groups. In the future I have some doubts that it will be possible to present this as indisputable progress and a clear sign of success to the members of those groups.

    It seems plausible this is why effort is being focused onto deconstructing their identity at the same time as highlighting the negative aspects of their culture and history, so reduction in numbers can be presented as governmental wisdom and societal achievement.

    From the point of view of the growing minorities it probably is, and a world with more people from their ethnic groups present in it is probably a better world from their pov. It seems likely this is the pov the establishment responsible for mass migration will start to favour.

    • Replies: @songbird
    @Coconuts


    Unfortunately the era of mass immigration into Europe is correlating with a steady fall in the numbers of the historic majority ethnic groups.
     
    IMO, this is what makes it an existential problem. It's not a question of all non-Euros coordinating to go Haitian Revolution on us, or one that especially hates us swiping the others from the field. The real problem is that their presence results in a state that reacts hyper-aggressively and utterly ruthlessly to throw up every possible obstacle to creating a culture that could solve the plummeting TFR of Euros.

    If there is ever any attempt at pro-natalism, it is obvious that they won't allow any specific program to try to increase the TFR of Euros. That destroys the greatest tools, cultural adaptation and appeal to ethnos. Leaves only financial inducements which will obviously be siphoned off by parasitical and oppositional groups, to grow their own numbers further.

    Don't see a lot of hope. The two standouts seem to be Hungary and Denmark. Hungary might be on the bubble because the entire West is trying to undermine Orban. Denmark has shut its doors, but seems to have tried to adopt a quasi-Singaporean solution, and I see this as very problematic. (Singapore is just an IQ-shredder, with hardly any culture). In any case, neither country has scale, and both seem capable of being outcompeted or overrun by bigger but less functional states.

    Only country with any scale that I ever had any hope for was Poland. MacGregor said that it could takeover Germany in a week. (Probably it was meant to be hyperbole, but with a grain of truth.) Unfortunately, Poland seems to be taking in >100,000 non-Euro migrants/year. I don't have any hope for it anymore. And there seems to be zero other contenders.

    Maybe, that leaves China? But I don't know if they would operate that altruistically as to help Europeans, especially when it would probably only create political problems for them elsewhere, or that they might be their only major strategic threat.

    Replies: @Coconuts

  907. @Yevardian
    @Dmitry


    German writers say the same about themselves. But Russian mentality is mainly rational like Northern European. But you can be planting the seeds, ploughing, but the harvest is stolen. While actually lazy romantic nationalities like Irish, are living in an organized society, with more rational political decisions.
     
    I think it's a huge misperception of both foreigners and Slavophiles to see Russians as romantics inclined to mysticism, or as inherently collectivist. What Russians rather do is take Western theories of whatever political stripe or disciplinary background, then they maniacally pursue them to their logical conclusions, usually ending up with pseudo-science or reductio ad absurdum.
    When you notice this, Russians are indeed not so dissimilar from Swedes or Germans, just from a less developed region.

    Isaiah Berlin, Alexander Herzen and Turgenev wrote all about this a long time ago, and I saw in the Sikh's link to Karlin's 'resignation speech' where he's echoing those same old judgements about the Russian national character.

    Also, I thought the Volga accent had been extinct for decades.

    Replies: @Dmitry, @Dmitry, @Coconuts

    When you notice this, Russians are indeed not so dissimilar from Swedes or Germans, just from a less developed region.

    This is a strong impression I got from being in Belarus, so if Russians are similar to Belarusians (the ones in the West are likely to be?), I’d go along with it.

    The strongest Western cultural influences on Russia, at least until the 1990s, seem to have been German as well.

  908. Sher Singh says:
    @HeavilyMarbledSteak
    @AP

    Um, as far as I can recall, Judaism is still with us, and has not exactly been replaced lol.

    But yes, modern Christianity has become basically like the Pharisees of old, it has become what it tried to replace, as we see in you, and therefore the true message must be restored once again.

    Happens all the time to every religion. Judaism too has become like the Near Eastern idol worship it tried to replace and needs a restoration. Happened to Judaism in the time of Jesus too.

    It's no big deal, but we have to deal with it, that's all.

    Replies: @Sher Singh, @AP

    Modernity is a Protestant meme. Non-violence, gender equality are anti-Sikh.
    Restoration comes with political change ie overthrow liberalism establish Raj.

    No matter how much you try to ingratiate yourself with Whites by hating Sikhs:

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11674357/Sikh-hero-gives-emotional-speech-Australian-Year-awards-winners-revealed.html

    It fails.

    ਸੋਫੀ ਸ਼ੂੰਮ ਪੰਥ ਨਹਿ ਰਾਖਨ । ਕਿਯ ਕਿਸ ਦਾਰੁਨ ਕੇ ਅਭਿਲਾਖਨ । [The Guru commanded] “I will not keep misers and teetotalers in my Panth, [my Singhs] will have the desire for vicious warfare.”

    ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫਤਹਿ

  909. @AP
    @HeavilyMarbledSteak


    Ok, but if Christians didn’t arrogantly question Judaism, they wouldn’t exist… So all those things I am arrogantly questioning themselves arose out of arrogantly questioning earlier things
     
    Thanks for admitting that all along your goal is to displace and replace Christianity, as Christianity did to traditional Judaism.

    So you are an enemy of Christianity.

    Just so we know where you stand.

    But I’m glad you’re conceding a bit on work and realizing it is not
     
    Translation:

    You invent fiction about me being some sort of workaholic, then when I correct your weird fantasy, you falsely claim that I conceded something.

    Replies: @HeavilyMarbledSteak, @Barbarossa

    You invent fiction about me being some sort of workaholic

    Well, I believe he said authoritarian, which I think you unquestioningly are. Negative connotations aside I suspect the world needs a few people with authoritarian tendencies, so I wouldn’t feel too offended. Perhaps you and Aaron B together bring a state perfect equipoise to the world. The UNZ ying and yang, so to speak. LOL

    Don’t worry, no-one here would take accusations of being a workaholic seriously, especially with 2.2 million words and almost 15,000 comments written! If any of us were real workaholics, we wouldn’t on this board engaging in esoteric discussions!

    • Replies: @AP
    @Barbarossa


    “You invent fiction about me being some sort of workaholic”

    Well, I believe he said authoritarian
     
    For awhile he was slandering me over and over in multiple posts by accusing me of being some sort bourgeois striver, simply because I disapprove of his arrogant parasitism and shallow “spirituality” that conflates consumeristic nature tourism with asceticism and places himself and the drug abusing homeless whom he praises alongside Saints.

    Here is one quote from him among many, a personal fantasy of his for some reason applied to me: “You studied hard, got a good job, pursued money, lived comfortably, worked hard, advanced in your career, worshipped the State cult..”

    Nothing wrong with working and studying hard, or thereby advancing one’s career (if it is a virtuous one and pursued ethically); these are indeed commendable activities and far better than whatever he is doing.

    I’d guess about 80% of what he writes about others past and present are just expressions of his own personal issues and problems, that he is unable or unwilling to break away from, and have nothing to do with the target of his musings. It’s a bit ridiculous when this proud degenerate bourgeois tries to drag Saints, poets, nobility, primitive peoples, proper bourgeois, Buddhists, Sikhs, etc. into his world.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

  910. @Beckow
    @A123


    ...What if it is not a misjudgment?
     
    My humble opinion is that it is basically stupidity. Some hubris, short-term thinking - next media cycle or elections, some plain old evil ethnic seeking revenge.

    I agree that among the few smarter ones the idea of losing in Ukraine, breaking it up, putting up a new iron curtain is not the worst outcome given the available choices. Once the neo-con Sturm nach Osten got underway this was inevitable - other than the details and timing. It is a consequence of the original misjudgment, but I don't think anyone planned it.

    Since the military win is not possible, they will just destroy the place, kill a lot of Ukies, use up ammunition, get richer - then move on as they always do. It is a strategic equivalent of crapping in the drawer on the way out after losing a lease...for some reason these sophisticated Washingtonians always do that...

    Replies: @A123

    …What if it is not a misjudgment?

    My humble opinion is that it is basically stupidity. Some hubris, short-term thinking – next media cycle or elections, some plain old evil ethnic seeking revenge.

    Hmmmm….. How does one tell idiocy from malice?

    • If Zelensky is merely stupid, and doing the best he can — Random chance would have the Kiev regime make decent decisions from time to time.

    • If Zelensky is a patsy or complicit — The track record of Kiev actions would be near 100% flawed.

    Which of these better describes the observed decisions made in Ukraine? Statistically speaking, the latter seems much more probable than the former. I concede this is not direct proof.

    However, EU actions strongly suggest they want the chaos. They are accepting obviously forged credentials from vast numbers of MENA origin migrants. And, they are not requiring these fraudsters to enter the enter from Ukraine. At least ⅓, possibly more, “Ukrainian Refugees” are not from Ukraine.

    Looking at the whole regional situation conveys strategy, not randomness. European Elites are pulling strings across the board, not just in Ukraine. A major reason why Kiev cannot score a “military win” is — Their theoretical backers in Europe do not want them to win.

    Extending the chaos is a feature, not a bug.

    PEACE 😇

  911. @Ivashka the fool
    @Mr. Hack

    Mr Hack, you look absolutely wonderful on this picture!

    Многая лета дорогой !

    🙂

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    Your words are too kind! The photo was snapped just prior to my visit to the Baha’i peoples large get together in Scottsdale, AZ. Do you think that perhaps I overdressed a bit for the event? Did you notice the large saguaro tree in the right hand corner? I think that both you and AaronB would have liked the concert featuring Strunz and Farah. 🙂

  912. @Beckow
    @LatW


    if the NATO accession were to become a reality for Ukraine, that Russia would take military action, it was just a question of the scope of that action. But this doesn’t take away from my point that they had to means to protect themselves without a large scale war such as now.
     
    What were those means? A smaller war? Or to line up endless missiles on their border with Ukraine and wait for the spark? You are really not saying anything with your meandering evasive discourse. Russia said that Kiev in Nato - with all that would eventually mean - is a red line, a war. That's what we have. The scale is up to the warriors, as always...remember 'shock-and-awe' over Baghdad or 'we will bomb you to Middle Ages' over Serbia? You can't be that dense, why would you deny that Nato did that?

    Russia plans a 100 years ahead (Russia is also very hawkish about even small military movements in her vicinity). With the long term view in mind, yes, the situation was getting somewhat undesirable for Russia.
     
    Where did you come with 100 years? A rhetoric refuge because you lost the argument? How about 20 years or 5 years? It doesn't take long to arm a country and threaten its neighbor. Let's also drop the casual anti-Russian racism, countries like US, China, UK, France plan for long term, even 100 years.

    when did NATO last have a major operation that destroyed a country’s capital, especially on the European continent
     
    Serbia. Beograd is a lot closer to core Europe then Kiev. You can't be serious pretending that you don't know it. Nato attacked Serbia, and then Iraq, Syria, Libya...millions of refugees, maybe a million dead, destroyed countries. Don't tell us that you missed that - but your whole writing falls apart since you pretend that it didn't happen. Address it, or stop telling nonsense - "first time blabla..."...I am puzzled why would you try to do this.

    Regarding military vacuum post-1991 in EE: it was a good thing! we grew, people invested, we had better economies. Nobody needed to start confronting Russia, pulling Ukraine (or Georgia) into Nato, preparing for the next conflict. Whether Russia be rearming in the last 10-15 years contributed to it is a classical chicken-and-egg dilemma. But we all know that without Nato threats - and some really nutty anti-Russian nationalist fanatics - nothing would happen.


    Where did I say Russia has no right to security? They have plenty of territory and resources from which to project their force... They already have Kaliningrad
     
    So does US, Canada, even France. Would you suggest to them to be cool with all that hinterland nobody can attack them? Again your double-standards. Large territory also means that you have more to defend - so that whole argument is rather irrelevant to what we are discussing.

    Russia paid with millions of lives in WW2 to get time Kaliningrad (Poland for some reason grabbed an equal piece of the old Prussia and nobody ever wants to mention that - kind of like you don't like to mention the Nato attack on Serbia.) Anglos had nothing to do with it, stop re-writing WW2 history.


    Russian national rights...
     
    You are seem to be blind to recent history: would France allow French speakers in Belgium to be oppressed? Did UK leave its "Anglos" to their fate in Ulster? Etc...Nato waged a brutal war for the "extraterritorial rights" of Albanians in Kosovo and Moslems in Bosnia. Do you really not know any of this?

    Finally the Pavel's unfortunate call to Taiwan - the first one by a third country in decades: he is guided to create havoc, to push the boundaries. That is neither relevant to most Czechs not smart. Given that he is no role on policy - he is 'ceremonial' - we will probably get a lot of these random kicks. They mean nothing and they undermine his reputation as a calmer person who gets along. But we will see, if he does a lot of these, his popularity - and influence - will wane. Czechs are a lot of things, outspoken, arrogant, but they never engage in pointless heroism or wars. Pavel knows this so he will adjust.

    Replies: @Emil Nikola Richard, @LatW

    You can’t be serious pretending that you don’t know it. Nato attacked Serbia, and then Iraq, Syria, Libya…millions of refugees, maybe a million dead, destroyed countries.

  913. @S
    @songbird


    Civil War was fought without any significant Irish political influence. Lincoln did away with all sorts of rights, and imposed an income tax, all without Irish involvement (if anything Irish immigrants were against it), unless you count the importation of unwilling meat bags for the army.
     
    There's a good scene in the Gangs of New York set in Civil War era New York City which touches on how the wage slavery system (ie the so called cheap labor/mass immigration system), besides first and foremost being about avoiding paying the prevailing real time local labor rates to one's own people via importing alien wage slaves, is a divide and rule scheme readily built into it besides.

    It shows the Anglo-Saxon Bill the Butcher and his gang of Anglos at the dock being displaced in real time by newly arriving Irish wage slaves, who in turn are to be displaced in time by Polock, Portuguese, and Syrian wage slaves,who in turn will be displaced by imported Chinese who will work for far less, ad nauseum.

    The movie touches on these things, but the reality is far worse than what it shows, as the wage slavery system of the more commercially oriented US North is simply the monetization of chattel slavery and it's trade, the 'immigrant' from a financial point of view being the slave.

    The Civil War itself was therefore fought for slavery by both 'sides', and to determine which of the two, chattel or wage, would prevail over the land as the more profitable and productive way to go about systematically stealing the value or another's labor.

    Get destroyed ultimately on the slow path with chattel slavery, or get destroyed on the fast path, ie mere decades with wage slavery

    It was thereforea no win situation for the soldiers fighting on either side involved, that is unless the guns had been turned upon the Northern and Southern elites and their hangers on, instead of upon each other, and a true abolition of slavery (both chattel and wage) enacted instead.

    That's what should have happened, but alas, didn't. :-(

    https://youtu.be/ns-qtoxnAS8



    https://youtu.be/Z4_4p15iGlU

    Replies: @songbird

    Yes, that was a very good scene. Wouldn’t say that I am an especial fanboy of Scorsese – haven’t seen most of his movies and some famous ones, like Raging Bull I found unappealing. But I really do wonder if it took a Catholic to make a movie like that.

    Maybe, it is a mistake to attribute it all to the director. (And at least one of the writers was half-Jewish). But to compare it to another movie that seemed to have heavier Jewish involvement, if not a Jewish director (actually the director shared an ancestor with Mitt Romney), An American Tail, there’s seems to be a sharp contrast in themes. (Or at least as far as I can recall, my memory of it is pretty poor). And those seem to be the predominant themes of Hollywood.

    Unfortunately, Gangs of New York was marred a bit by a very horrible song by U2, after they had really declined.

    • Replies: @S
    @songbird


    Yes, that was a very good scene. Wouldn’t say that I am an especial fanboy of Scorsese...But I really do wonder if it took a Catholic to make a movie like that.
     
    I wouldn't know. It does seem every now and again a Hollywood movie will present something close to the truth, such as that particular scene. I imagine it might be only later they realize what had occurred and do their very best to make sure it doesn't happen again. :-D

    Unfortunately, Gangs of New York was marred a bit by a very horrible song by U2, after they had really declined.
     
    Hehe. That reminds me how one time the subject of U2 came up, and an Irish acquaintance of mine immediately piped up with 'Bono make it better!' Apparently within Ireland and amongst the Irish people there is something that might be called 'Bono fatigue' which has set in.

    As an aside, I thought that scene's music (ie 'Paddy's Lament') had been made up just for the movie, but apparently it was a real US Civil War era Irish ballad. Interesting lyrics in regards to 'Lincoln's War.'

    Sinead O'Connor performs the song when she still had a bit of hair.


    https://youtu.be/FKUNfmb2Ir8

    Replies: @S, @songbird

  914. @Yevardian
    @Mikel

    He's Punjabi (both provinces on the Indo-Paki border), whom comprise probably over 70% of subcontinentals in Australia.
    Although I dunno if your question was sarcastic, since 95% of his posts are Sikh breast-beating. Anyway the overwhelming majority of Sikhs are Punjabis, whilst most Punjabis are Sikhs. I think it's basically a religion you're born into or you're not, although like Jews you can convert, but it's difficult and discouraged.
    I've never really read into the subject, but I'm pretty certain there aren't any Sikhs south of the Deccan.
    I remember in the first (An Area of Darkness) of V.S Naipaul's 'India Trilogy' his matter-of-fact account of a Sikh who befriended Naipaul, sensing a fellow kindred spirit (probably based on Naipaul's assholish and arrogant demeanor), and Naipaul observing this Sikh bullying random people on the train, constantly provoking fights, talking about his expat days in London and how he was dissapointed the British lost their imperial mentality, or ranting to him about Dravidians being 'natural born slaves' and so on and so forth.

    Replies: @Mikel

    Although I dunno if your question was sarcastic

    Sorry, I couldn’t resist. Though it was him who started with the sarcasm by saying that he is the least ethnocentric commenter lol.

    Sher and I have had some minor disagreements on the consumption of cow meat but otherwise we’re cool. I may find the aesthetics of turbans and dreadlocks debatable and not appreciate too much his comments on the mistreatment of women and violence in general but we’re learning to be friends.

  915. @Coconuts
    @songbird


    Or, maybe, that you are grandfathered in after a similar period of time, or number of generations, whatever your origin or effect on society. (Woe to Europe!) But I don’t want try to argue your case for you.
     
    Unfortunately the era of mass immigration into Europe is correlating with a steady fall in the numbers of the historic majority ethnic groups. In the future I have some doubts that it will be possible to present this as indisputable progress and a clear sign of success to the members of those groups.

    It seems plausible this is why effort is being focused onto deconstructing their identity at the same time as highlighting the negative aspects of their culture and history, so reduction in numbers can be presented as governmental wisdom and societal achievement.

    From the point of view of the growing minorities it probably is, and a world with more people from their ethnic groups present in it is probably a better world from their pov. It seems likely this is the pov the establishment responsible for mass migration will start to favour.

    Replies: @songbird

    Unfortunately the era of mass immigration into Europe is correlating with a steady fall in the numbers of the historic majority ethnic groups.

    IMO, this is what makes it an existential problem. It’s not a question of all non-Euros coordinating to go Haitian Revolution on us, or one that especially hates us swiping the others from the field. The real problem is that their presence results in a state that reacts hyper-aggressively and utterly ruthlessly to throw up every possible obstacle to creating a culture that could solve the plummeting TFR of Euros.

    [MORE]

    If there is ever any attempt at pro-natalism, it is obvious that they won’t allow any specific program to try to increase the TFR of Euros. That destroys the greatest tools, cultural adaptation and appeal to ethnos. Leaves only financial inducements which will obviously be siphoned off by parasitical and oppositional groups, to grow their own numbers further.

    Don’t see a lot of hope. The two standouts seem to be Hungary and Denmark. Hungary might be on the bubble because the entire West is trying to undermine Orban. Denmark has shut its doors, but seems to have tried to adopt a quasi-Singaporean solution, and I see this as very problematic. (Singapore is just an IQ-shredder, with hardly any culture). In any case, neither country has scale, and both seem capable of being outcompeted or overrun by bigger but less functional states.

    Only country with any scale that I ever had any hope for was Poland. MacGregor said that it could takeover Germany in a week. (Probably it was meant to be hyperbole, but with a grain of truth.) Unfortunately, Poland seems to be taking in >100,000 non-Euro migrants/year. I don’t have any hope for it anymore. And there seems to be zero other contenders.

    Maybe, that leaves China? But I don’t know if they would operate that altruistically as to help Europeans, especially when it would probably only create political problems for them elsewhere, or that they might be their only major strategic threat.

    • Replies: @Coconuts
    @songbird


    The real problem is that their presence results in a state that reacts hyper-aggressively and utterly ruthlessly to throw up every possible obstacle to creating a culture that could solve the plummeting TFR of Euros.
     
    Weirdly one positive aspect of the way they are racialising everything at the moment could be that it opens the door politically to something like this. This is if politicians who are not friendly to progressivism can make some use of these 'group disparity' tropes at some time in the future. Though this happening is definitely not certain.

    Another blackpilling aspect is that there are powerful subgroups within the Euro majorities who have other reasons for ignoring the TFR issue, like liberal feminists and the LGBT lobby. They seem to have a tendency to resist any pro-natalist developments as part of their fight against patriarchy and heteronormativity.

    The ethnic minority and immigrant communities both tend to be more resistant to these influences, and the Euro feminists and LGBT don't seem to make as much effort to influence and control their customs either. This may help them sustain their higher fertility rate.

    Lastly there is some HBD angle on the way the largest falls in fertility are among the Euro middle classes, this may create some additional pull factor in favour of immigration to replace this group.

    I think at the moment enough people are still doing too well for momentum to develop for some political force to confront all these issues and the associated lobby groups, so the outlook is not good, at least short/medium term. Longer term the problems associated with a lot of people having no families or very small families may get more pronounced, where people don't have relatives to care and look out for them in old age, besides all the other issues linked to major demographic change.

  916. @Barbarossa
    @AP


    You invent fiction about me being some sort of workaholic
     
    Well, I believe he said authoritarian, which I think you unquestioningly are. Negative connotations aside I suspect the world needs a few people with authoritarian tendencies, so I wouldn't feel too offended. Perhaps you and Aaron B together bring a state perfect equipoise to the world. The UNZ ying and yang, so to speak. LOL

    Don't worry, no-one here would take accusations of being a workaholic seriously, especially with 2.2 million words and almost 15,000 comments written! If any of us were real workaholics, we wouldn't on this board engaging in esoteric discussions!

    Replies: @AP

    “You invent fiction about me being some sort of workaholic”

    Well, I believe he said authoritarian

    For awhile he was slandering me over and over in multiple posts by accusing me of being some sort bourgeois striver, simply because I disapprove of his arrogant parasitism and shallow “spirituality” that conflates consumeristic nature tourism with asceticism and places himself and the drug abusing homeless whom he praises alongside Saints.

    Here is one quote from him among many, a personal fantasy of his for some reason applied to me: “You studied hard, got a good job, pursued money, lived comfortably, worked hard, advanced in your career, worshipped the State cult..”

    Nothing wrong with working and studying hard, or thereby advancing one’s career (if it is a virtuous one and pursued ethically); these are indeed commendable activities and far better than whatever he is doing.

    I’d guess about 80% of what he writes about others past and present are just expressions of his own personal issues and problems, that he is unable or unwilling to break away from, and have nothing to do with the target of his musings. It’s a bit ridiculous when this proud degenerate bourgeois tries to drag Saints, poets, nobility, primitive peoples, proper bourgeois, Buddhists, Sikhs, etc. into his world.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @AP

    Funny, I don't recall the old AaronB being so persnickety towards you? And as Bashi has already mentioned, a week of this banter is long enough. You should be honored, that somebody as erudite as Aaron decided to spend so much time in psychoanalyzing you and your personal philosophies and beliefs, though he may have gotten a couple of things wrong (questionable?). :-)

  917. @Beckow
    @LatW


    if the NATO accession were to become a reality for Ukraine, that Russia would take military action, it was just a question of the scope of that action. But this doesn’t take away from my point that they had to means to protect themselves without a large scale war such as now.
     
    What were those means? A smaller war? Or to line up endless missiles on their border with Ukraine and wait for the spark? You are really not saying anything with your meandering evasive discourse. Russia said that Kiev in Nato - with all that would eventually mean - is a red line, a war. That's what we have. The scale is up to the warriors, as always...remember 'shock-and-awe' over Baghdad or 'we will bomb you to Middle Ages' over Serbia? You can't be that dense, why would you deny that Nato did that?

    Russia plans a 100 years ahead (Russia is also very hawkish about even small military movements in her vicinity). With the long term view in mind, yes, the situation was getting somewhat undesirable for Russia.
     
    Where did you come with 100 years? A rhetoric refuge because you lost the argument? How about 20 years or 5 years? It doesn't take long to arm a country and threaten its neighbor. Let's also drop the casual anti-Russian racism, countries like US, China, UK, France plan for long term, even 100 years.

    when did NATO last have a major operation that destroyed a country’s capital, especially on the European continent
     
    Serbia. Beograd is a lot closer to core Europe then Kiev. You can't be serious pretending that you don't know it. Nato attacked Serbia, and then Iraq, Syria, Libya...millions of refugees, maybe a million dead, destroyed countries. Don't tell us that you missed that - but your whole writing falls apart since you pretend that it didn't happen. Address it, or stop telling nonsense - "first time blabla..."...I am puzzled why would you try to do this.

    Regarding military vacuum post-1991 in EE: it was a good thing! we grew, people invested, we had better economies. Nobody needed to start confronting Russia, pulling Ukraine (or Georgia) into Nato, preparing for the next conflict. Whether Russia be rearming in the last 10-15 years contributed to it is a classical chicken-and-egg dilemma. But we all know that without Nato threats - and some really nutty anti-Russian nationalist fanatics - nothing would happen.


    Where did I say Russia has no right to security? They have plenty of territory and resources from which to project their force... They already have Kaliningrad
     
    So does US, Canada, even France. Would you suggest to them to be cool with all that hinterland nobody can attack them? Again your double-standards. Large territory also means that you have more to defend - so that whole argument is rather irrelevant to what we are discussing.

    Russia paid with millions of lives in WW2 to get time Kaliningrad (Poland for some reason grabbed an equal piece of the old Prussia and nobody ever wants to mention that - kind of like you don't like to mention the Nato attack on Serbia.) Anglos had nothing to do with it, stop re-writing WW2 history.


    Russian national rights...
     
    You are seem to be blind to recent history: would France allow French speakers in Belgium to be oppressed? Did UK leave its "Anglos" to their fate in Ulster? Etc...Nato waged a brutal war for the "extraterritorial rights" of Albanians in Kosovo and Moslems in Bosnia. Do you really not know any of this?

    Finally the Pavel's unfortunate call to Taiwan - the first one by a third country in decades: he is guided to create havoc, to push the boundaries. That is neither relevant to most Czechs not smart. Given that he is no role on policy - he is 'ceremonial' - we will probably get a lot of these random kicks. They mean nothing and they undermine his reputation as a calmer person who gets along. But we will see, if he does a lot of these, his popularity - and influence - will wane. Czechs are a lot of things, outspoken, arrogant, but they never engage in pointless heroism or wars. Pavel knows this so he will adjust.

    Replies: @Emil Nikola Richard, @LatW

    Where did you come with 100 years? A rhetoric refuge because you lost the argument? How about 20 years or 5 years? It doesn’t take long to arm a country and threaten its neighbor. Let’s also drop the casual anti-Russian racism, countries like US, China, UK, France plan for long term, even 100 years.

    It’s just figurative speech for “long term”. This wasn’t meant as anything negative, on the contrary. Why are you so defensive? How is this “anti-Russian racism”? If I wanted to do “anti-Russian racism”, I’d be saying completely different things.

    Yes, Russia plans long term, so even if NATO didn’t place anything in Ukraine, they would still be suspicious. It’s cautious behavior. The problem with it is that one can make up any kind of threat and use it as pretext. Which they’ve historically done a lot. Stalin was going around shooting people because he was seeing foreign spies everywhere (among his own population), same mentality.

    I wasn’t disagreeing with you about NATO in Russia’s vicinity. But you very conveniently avoided my most important point – about security guarantees to Ukraine and others around Russia. Your suggestion to just “suck it up” doesn’t work (historically proven not to work). So I’m assuming that you just believe that Russia should be allowed to do anything, but those who are Russia’s targets need to be demilitarized. And that kind of an approach doesn’t solve the problem. So you can’t propose a viable solution.

    Russia doesn’t accept an independent Ukraine. Imagine there is no NATO, but Ukraine still wants to be the way they want to be since 2014. Russia wouldn’t accept that. The problem is deeper than just NATO.

    [MORE]

    Serbia. Beograd is a lot closer to core Europe then Kiev. You can’t be serious pretending that you don’t know it.

    If you had read my comment more carefully – I asked when did such a conflict take place on European soil last (not if). It’s been 24 years but you talk as if NATO does this in Europe every other year. NATO troops never walked into people’s homes, raping women and stealing things.

    The air strikes, while harsh, lasted from 24 March 1999 to 10 June 1999. So a couple of months (of course, it is still very tragic). How long has Russia been striking Ukraine with missiles now? Either way, the intervention into the Yugoslav wars does not justify invasion of Ukraine.

    Do you realize that the same criticisms you have for Ukraine could be used against Serbia as well? “Do not provoke your neighbors”, “don’t be nationalist chauvinist”, “do not be aggressive”, “observe others’ rights”, etc.

    You talk as if all those years Russia never waged a single war, when Russia was actively waging several wars.

    Regarding military vacuum post-1991 in EE: it was a good thing! we grew, people invested, we had better economies.

    Yes, it was good (although the Baltic States were never fully safe). It was a lull. It lasted a bit because Russia was weak, as soon as Russia grew stronger, which coincided with the oil boom, problems began. Of course, the deterioration of the relationship is not all Russia’s fault, but to ignore these underlying dynamics is disingenuous.

    Btw, speaking of “people invested” – investments are still growing in EE (except Ukraine, of course), regardless of all this mess.

    So does US, Canada, even France. Would you suggest to them to be cool with all that hinterland nobody can attack them?

    Where do you see those countries going around and invading and murdering their neighbors? And, yes, those countries have major buffers and a lot of depth, so when it comes to the defense of their own soil, they’re ok. As would be Russia by just placing missiles along periphery (which they’ve done).

    Large territory also means that you have more to defend – so that whole argument is rather irrelevant to what we are discussing.

    That’s exactly what I was saying! There is more than enough work with defending the existing territory without getting into crazy escapades. Now in the last minute they are rushing to place anti-defense on their roofs in Moscow (as if those things shouldn’t have been there already). If the invasion doesn’t succeed and they’re not able to hold what they’ve invaded, the Ukrainian troops will keep pushing them back and in the worst case scenarios all of those Russian border areas could be on fire and the war could continue there. Do they have enough protection there?

    Kaliningrad (Poland for some reason grabbed an equal piece of the old Prussia and nobody ever wants to mention that

    Poland has more rights to Kaliningrad than Russia – Northern Poland has many assimilated Old Prussians who are the original population of East Prussia, so it makes sense. Apparently, Stalin wanted to give Kaliningrad to Lithuania. Poland was present in that region since antiquity, so Poland didn’t “grab” anything. Russia has never been in Kaliningrad before 1945. Why was this region still militarized after 1991, if all was so good, why was this region militarized further by placing Iskander there?

    Anglos had nothing to do with it, stop re-writing WW2 history.

    Anglos had everything to do with it, had Anglos not been Stalin’s allies and provided all that help, Kaliningrad would never become Soviet/Russian, which it has never been historically.

    You are seem to be blind to recent history: would France allow French speakers in Belgium to be oppressed? Did UK leave its “Anglos” to their fate in Ulster?

    Those countries did not walk into other countries and didn’t start murdering people. Wrong comparisons. Everyone cares about their co-ethnics, but not everyone uses them to achieve geopolitical goals and to invade (and try to destroy another ethnicity). What is more absurd now is that Russia is killing the carriers of the Russian language. Maybe they will realize only later how self-destructive this is.

    Given that he is no role on policy – he is ‘ceremonial’ – we will probably get a lot of these random kicks.

    I understand the part about his role not being executive, but these days public diplomacy just means so much. He seems to be interested in the whole world, not just his region. It’s up to him if he wants to be just the president of Czechia or something more. I’m more interested in what he might contribute to the European defense capability, even with just words of encouragement.

    It looks like he’d be ready to visit Ukraine soon with your president. Ukraine is hoping that he will help coordinate the assistance, obviously he is well informed about all the possibilities (as former military), that he will become one of the key moderators, in fact.

    • Replies: @LatW
    @LatW


    Now in the last minute they are rushing to place anti-defense on their roofs in Moscow (as if those things shouldn’t have been there already)
     
    So they didn't have anti-air defense placed on the roof of the General Staff building in Moscow and other important buildings until the last week. Why not? Does it mean they did not fear any Western attack at all for all these years even though they were screaming on their propaganda channels that "NATO could invade"?

    They moved their troops from both Kaliningrad and Pskov oblasts to Ukraine. Leaving those regions with less troops. That means they know that that direction is safe, that NATO will not invade, at least not from there. It is safe for them - NATO is there.

    It is less safe around where they themselves are waging war right now. And they are afraid that the Ukes could hit Moscow if they got the long range missiles. Food for thought.
    , @songbird
    @LatW


    Russia doesn’t accept an independent Ukraine.
     
    Nor does America.
    , @Beckow
    @LatW


    ...I wasn’t disagreeing with you about NATO in Russia’s vicinity. But you very conveniently avoided my most important point – about security guarantees to Ukraine and others around Russia. Your suggestion to just “suck it up” doesn’t work
     
    I didn't, I specifically said that it is "chicken-and-egg" dilemma - with those it is impossible to determine as in this case whether it is Nato's expansion or Russia's security obsession that have triggered the war. Maybe it is 50-50, but I would say that since Nato was the initiator they bear a larger share of responsibility.

    Whether Ukraine and other Russia's neighbors would be threatened anyway is impossible to say. We can look at recent history and unquestionably Russia only got involved when its co-ethnics (Russians, Ossetians...) were threatened and when Nato was involved. It is possible that they actively meddled anyway - large countries all do that, there is an enormous amount of US meddling all over Europe.


    the same criticisms you have for Ukraine could be used against Serbia as well? “Do not provoke your neighbors"
     
    Kosovo was at that time part of Serbia. My point is simple: Nato brutally used force in Serbia with no regard for civilians to 'protect minority rights' - it was and still is celebrated and it happened first. It was a precedent.

    Your silly argument that 'well, Nato doesn't do it every year', that it was 20 years ago is very stupid. It has just happened, the attack on Serbia continued for years, eliminating the northern 'Kosovo' enclave, attacking monasteries, etc... all with Nato's help and support. Then there was also Iraq, Afghan., Libya, Syria...all in the last years. That says two things:
    - Nato is not a defensive pact - it uses massive force, bombs and has no domestic restraints due to its complete control over media-politicians
    - If Nato can use the 'minority' argument to start a war, others will too. Sorry.

    You never answered that point because in your world it is unanswerable - hypocrisy this massive doesn't travel well, others will simply not accept it and ignore all you say. The war is about whether Nato can continue enforcing its Nato-centric view of the world - so far it looks like they won't be able to. Poor Ukies are simple 'collateral damage'. As were the Serbs, Iraqis...


    Poland has more rights to Kaliningrad than Russia...
     
    Poland lost the war and Russia won. In general, it is the winner who gets the spoils. Your silly argument doesn't amount to anything in the real world. Poland is lucky that Russians saved them in WW2, they would not exist today without Russia. Anglos were not going to invade Poland to liberate it, they would not be willing to lose any lives over lowly Poles. Same today with the Ukies, but you seem to prefer to live your illusions...
  918. @LatW
    @Beckow


    Where did you come with 100 years? A rhetoric refuge because you lost the argument? How about 20 years or 5 years? It doesn’t take long to arm a country and threaten its neighbor. Let’s also drop the casual anti-Russian racism, countries like US, China, UK, France plan for long term, even 100 years.
     
    It's just figurative speech for "long term". This wasn't meant as anything negative, on the contrary. Why are you so defensive? How is this "anti-Russian racism"? If I wanted to do "anti-Russian racism", I'd be saying completely different things.

    Yes, Russia plans long term, so even if NATO didn't place anything in Ukraine, they would still be suspicious. It's cautious behavior. The problem with it is that one can make up any kind of threat and use it as pretext. Which they've historically done a lot. Stalin was going around shooting people because he was seeing foreign spies everywhere (among his own population), same mentality.

    I wasn't disagreeing with you about NATO in Russia's vicinity. But you very conveniently avoided my most important point - about security guarantees to Ukraine and others around Russia. Your suggestion to just "suck it up" doesn't work (historically proven not to work). So I'm assuming that you just believe that Russia should be allowed to do anything, but those who are Russia's targets need to be demilitarized. And that kind of an approach doesn't solve the problem. So you can't propose a viable solution.

    Russia doesn't accept an independent Ukraine. Imagine there is no NATO, but Ukraine still wants to be the way they want to be since 2014. Russia wouldn't accept that. The problem is deeper than just NATO.


    Serbia. Beograd is a lot closer to core Europe then Kiev. You can’t be serious pretending that you don’t know it.
     
    If you had read my comment more carefully - I asked when did such a conflict take place on European soil last (not if). It's been 24 years but you talk as if NATO does this in Europe every other year. NATO troops never walked into people's homes, raping women and stealing things.

    The air strikes, while harsh, lasted from 24 March 1999 to 10 June 1999. So a couple of months (of course, it is still very tragic). How long has Russia been striking Ukraine with missiles now? Either way, the intervention into the Yugoslav wars does not justify invasion of Ukraine.

    Do you realize that the same criticisms you have for Ukraine could be used against Serbia as well? "Do not provoke your neighbors", "don't be nationalist chauvinist", "do not be aggressive", "observe others' rights", etc.

    You talk as if all those years Russia never waged a single war, when Russia was actively waging several wars.

    Regarding military vacuum post-1991 in EE: it was a good thing! we grew, people invested, we had better economies.
     
    Yes, it was good (although the Baltic States were never fully safe). It was a lull. It lasted a bit because Russia was weak, as soon as Russia grew stronger, which coincided with the oil boom, problems began. Of course, the deterioration of the relationship is not all Russia's fault, but to ignore these underlying dynamics is disingenuous.

    Btw, speaking of "people invested" - investments are still growing in EE (except Ukraine, of course), regardless of all this mess.

    So does US, Canada, even France. Would you suggest to them to be cool with all that hinterland nobody can attack them?
     
    Where do you see those countries going around and invading and murdering their neighbors? And, yes, those countries have major buffers and a lot of depth, so when it comes to the defense of their own soil, they're ok. As would be Russia by just placing missiles along periphery (which they've done).

    Large territory also means that you have more to defend – so that whole argument is rather irrelevant to what we are discussing.
     
    That's exactly what I was saying! There is more than enough work with defending the existing territory without getting into crazy escapades. Now in the last minute they are rushing to place anti-defense on their roofs in Moscow (as if those things shouldn't have been there already). If the invasion doesn't succeed and they're not able to hold what they've invaded, the Ukrainian troops will keep pushing them back and in the worst case scenarios all of those Russian border areas could be on fire and the war could continue there. Do they have enough protection there?

    Kaliningrad (Poland for some reason grabbed an equal piece of the old Prussia and nobody ever wants to mention that
     
    Poland has more rights to Kaliningrad than Russia - Northern Poland has many assimilated Old Prussians who are the original population of East Prussia, so it makes sense. Apparently, Stalin wanted to give Kaliningrad to Lithuania. Poland was present in that region since antiquity, so Poland didn't "grab" anything. Russia has never been in Kaliningrad before 1945. Why was this region still militarized after 1991, if all was so good, why was this region militarized further by placing Iskander there?

    Anglos had nothing to do with it, stop re-writing WW2 history.
     
    Anglos had everything to do with it, had Anglos not been Stalin's allies and provided all that help, Kaliningrad would never become Soviet/Russian, which it has never been historically.

    You are seem to be blind to recent history: would France allow French speakers in Belgium to be oppressed? Did UK leave its “Anglos” to their fate in Ulster?
     
    Those countries did not walk into other countries and didn't start murdering people. Wrong comparisons. Everyone cares about their co-ethnics, but not everyone uses them to achieve geopolitical goals and to invade (and try to destroy another ethnicity). What is more absurd now is that Russia is killing the carriers of the Russian language. Maybe they will realize only later how self-destructive this is.

    Given that he is no role on policy – he is ‘ceremonial’ – we will probably get a lot of these random kicks.
     
    I understand the part about his role not being executive, but these days public diplomacy just means so much. He seems to be interested in the whole world, not just his region. It's up to him if he wants to be just the president of Czechia or something more. I'm more interested in what he might contribute to the European defense capability, even with just words of encouragement.

    It looks like he'd be ready to visit Ukraine soon with your president. Ukraine is hoping that he will help coordinate the assistance, obviously he is well informed about all the possibilities (as former military), that he will become one of the key moderators, in fact.

    Replies: @LatW, @songbird, @Beckow

    Now in the last minute they are rushing to place anti-defense on their roofs in Moscow (as if those things shouldn’t have been there already)

    So they didn’t have anti-air defense placed on the roof of the General Staff building in Moscow and other important buildings until the last week. Why not? Does it mean they did not fear any Western attack at all for all these years even though they were screaming on their propaganda channels that “NATO could invade”?

    They moved their troops from both Kaliningrad and Pskov oblasts to Ukraine. Leaving those regions with less troops. That means they know that that direction is safe, that NATO will not invade, at least not from there. It is safe for them – NATO is there.

    It is less safe around where they themselves are waging war right now. And they are afraid that the Ukes could hit Moscow if they got the long range missiles. Food for thought.

    • Agree: Mikel, Stephane
  919. @LatW
    @Beckow


    Where did you come with 100 years? A rhetoric refuge because you lost the argument? How about 20 years or 5 years? It doesn’t take long to arm a country and threaten its neighbor. Let’s also drop the casual anti-Russian racism, countries like US, China, UK, France plan for long term, even 100 years.
     
    It's just figurative speech for "long term". This wasn't meant as anything negative, on the contrary. Why are you so defensive? How is this "anti-Russian racism"? If I wanted to do "anti-Russian racism", I'd be saying completely different things.

    Yes, Russia plans long term, so even if NATO didn't place anything in Ukraine, they would still be suspicious. It's cautious behavior. The problem with it is that one can make up any kind of threat and use it as pretext. Which they've historically done a lot. Stalin was going around shooting people because he was seeing foreign spies everywhere (among his own population), same mentality.

    I wasn't disagreeing with you about NATO in Russia's vicinity. But you very conveniently avoided my most important point - about security guarantees to Ukraine and others around Russia. Your suggestion to just "suck it up" doesn't work (historically proven not to work). So I'm assuming that you just believe that Russia should be allowed to do anything, but those who are Russia's targets need to be demilitarized. And that kind of an approach doesn't solve the problem. So you can't propose a viable solution.

    Russia doesn't accept an independent Ukraine. Imagine there is no NATO, but Ukraine still wants to be the way they want to be since 2014. Russia wouldn't accept that. The problem is deeper than just NATO.


    Serbia. Beograd is a lot closer to core Europe then Kiev. You can’t be serious pretending that you don’t know it.
     
    If you had read my comment more carefully - I asked when did such a conflict take place on European soil last (not if). It's been 24 years but you talk as if NATO does this in Europe every other year. NATO troops never walked into people's homes, raping women and stealing things.

    The air strikes, while harsh, lasted from 24 March 1999 to 10 June 1999. So a couple of months (of course, it is still very tragic). How long has Russia been striking Ukraine with missiles now? Either way, the intervention into the Yugoslav wars does not justify invasion of Ukraine.

    Do you realize that the same criticisms you have for Ukraine could be used against Serbia as well? "Do not provoke your neighbors", "don't be nationalist chauvinist", "do not be aggressive", "observe others' rights", etc.

    You talk as if all those years Russia never waged a single war, when Russia was actively waging several wars.

    Regarding military vacuum post-1991 in EE: it was a good thing! we grew, people invested, we had better economies.
     
    Yes, it was good (although the Baltic States were never fully safe). It was a lull. It lasted a bit because Russia was weak, as soon as Russia grew stronger, which coincided with the oil boom, problems began. Of course, the deterioration of the relationship is not all Russia's fault, but to ignore these underlying dynamics is disingenuous.

    Btw, speaking of "people invested" - investments are still growing in EE (except Ukraine, of course), regardless of all this mess.

    So does US, Canada, even France. Would you suggest to them to be cool with all that hinterland nobody can attack them?
     
    Where do you see those countries going around and invading and murdering their neighbors? And, yes, those countries have major buffers and a lot of depth, so when it comes to the defense of their own soil, they're ok. As would be Russia by just placing missiles along periphery (which they've done).

    Large territory also means that you have more to defend – so that whole argument is rather irrelevant to what we are discussing.
     
    That's exactly what I was saying! There is more than enough work with defending the existing territory without getting into crazy escapades. Now in the last minute they are rushing to place anti-defense on their roofs in Moscow (as if those things shouldn't have been there already). If the invasion doesn't succeed and they're not able to hold what they've invaded, the Ukrainian troops will keep pushing them back and in the worst case scenarios all of those Russian border areas could be on fire and the war could continue there. Do they have enough protection there?

    Kaliningrad (Poland for some reason grabbed an equal piece of the old Prussia and nobody ever wants to mention that
     
    Poland has more rights to Kaliningrad than Russia - Northern Poland has many assimilated Old Prussians who are the original population of East Prussia, so it makes sense. Apparently, Stalin wanted to give Kaliningrad to Lithuania. Poland was present in that region since antiquity, so Poland didn't "grab" anything. Russia has never been in Kaliningrad before 1945. Why was this region still militarized after 1991, if all was so good, why was this region militarized further by placing Iskander there?

    Anglos had nothing to do with it, stop re-writing WW2 history.
     
    Anglos had everything to do with it, had Anglos not been Stalin's allies and provided all that help, Kaliningrad would never become Soviet/Russian, which it has never been historically.

    You are seem to be blind to recent history: would France allow French speakers in Belgium to be oppressed? Did UK leave its “Anglos” to their fate in Ulster?
     
    Those countries did not walk into other countries and didn't start murdering people. Wrong comparisons. Everyone cares about their co-ethnics, but not everyone uses them to achieve geopolitical goals and to invade (and try to destroy another ethnicity). What is more absurd now is that Russia is killing the carriers of the Russian language. Maybe they will realize only later how self-destructive this is.

    Given that he is no role on policy – he is ‘ceremonial’ – we will probably get a lot of these random kicks.
     
    I understand the part about his role not being executive, but these days public diplomacy just means so much. He seems to be interested in the whole world, not just his region. It's up to him if he wants to be just the president of Czechia or something more. I'm more interested in what he might contribute to the European defense capability, even with just words of encouragement.

    It looks like he'd be ready to visit Ukraine soon with your president. Ukraine is hoping that he will help coordinate the assistance, obviously he is well informed about all the possibilities (as former military), that he will become one of the key moderators, in fact.

    Replies: @LatW, @songbird, @Beckow

    Russia doesn’t accept an independent Ukraine.

    Nor does America.

    • Disagree: sudden death
  920. @AP
    @Barbarossa


    “You invent fiction about me being some sort of workaholic”

    Well, I believe he said authoritarian
     
    For awhile he was slandering me over and over in multiple posts by accusing me of being some sort bourgeois striver, simply because I disapprove of his arrogant parasitism and shallow “spirituality” that conflates consumeristic nature tourism with asceticism and places himself and the drug abusing homeless whom he praises alongside Saints.

    Here is one quote from him among many, a personal fantasy of his for some reason applied to me: “You studied hard, got a good job, pursued money, lived comfortably, worked hard, advanced in your career, worshipped the State cult..”

    Nothing wrong with working and studying hard, or thereby advancing one’s career (if it is a virtuous one and pursued ethically); these are indeed commendable activities and far better than whatever he is doing.

    I’d guess about 80% of what he writes about others past and present are just expressions of his own personal issues and problems, that he is unable or unwilling to break away from, and have nothing to do with the target of his musings. It’s a bit ridiculous when this proud degenerate bourgeois tries to drag Saints, poets, nobility, primitive peoples, proper bourgeois, Buddhists, Sikhs, etc. into his world.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    Funny, I don’t recall the old AaronB being so persnickety towards you? And as Bashi has already mentioned, a week of this banter is long enough. You should be honored, that somebody as erudite as Aaron decided to spend so much time in psychoanalyzing you and your personal philosophies and beliefs, though he may have gotten a couple of things wrong (questionable?). 🙂

  921. @Dmitry
    @LatW


    “Russian world” and both
     
    They are from Ukraine, it is their native part of earth, even if the political organization they were born in was the USSR. You can never escape the place you come from as a child. It's one of the deep parts of the personality.

    You go to a new country, at night you still dream you are suddenly back in the old home. Even if I would emigrate to Arizona, I probably would not dream about cactuses.


    supporters of Kremlin
     
    Here Be Dragon was copy/pasting posts from Boris Rozhin (this is a very low quality Kremlin propaganda they spread on the internet in Russia), so some of his posts were Kremlin propaganda/anti-American propaganda. But he was from Ukraine so his point of view will be related to real world at least in terms of its motives.

    Our forum is not a good sample, but AnoninTN and Here Be Dragon are examples similar trauma from Ukraine, as both have the same hatred of nationalism. AnoninTN also says he has hatred of empire (this is rhetoric from Lenin).

    "Superhero (or supervillain) origin story" of Here Be Dragon were those fights with Ukrainian villagers.
    https://www.unz.com/akarlin/open-thread-190-russia-ukraine/#comment-5389482


    like “half tanks” (and they look so damn cool). The main goal is to protect the soldier

     

    I think they could still be destroyed by artillery.

    But it's authentic American equipment, used by the American army in 1991. They have more advanced sensors than any vehicles in the Russian army. And America can continue increasing the temperature of the water. Or they could continue allowing Ukraine to fight, just using old equipment from the 1970s American warehouses.

    There is the strange incompetence of Putin, that he has become enemies of advanced countries, in exchange for valueless anti-Western rhetoric. If he wanted to win the postsoviet border conflicts, it's a significant mistake to motivate powerful countries to support your enemy.*

    Even if he wanted to invade Ukraine, Prokhorov would have been more successful. Yeltsin would have been more successful. If you want to win the postsoviet border conflicts, you would use pro-Western rhetoric and diplomatic ambiguity.

    Although also a dictator who is focused on postsoviet border conflict instead of internal development, A Aliev is an example of the more disciplined and strategic leader than Putin. He prepares the diplomatic space before the war. Instead of valueless anti-Western rhetoric for years, invited NATO for exercises.


    -
    *Unless you want the postsoviet border conflict with the poorest country in Europe, to look like the Iran-Iraq war (already too late - it looks like the Iran-Iraq war). Aliev was fighting for 6 weeks.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09TnwicyQx8


    @AP


    Ukrainian from Ukraine posting here was angry at me
     
    AnoninTN can write himself. But he says he is not just from Ukraine, but has been Ukrainian speaking with his grandparents, who were Ukrainian speaking people.
    https://www.unz.com/akarlin/ukro-khazars-trying-to-appropriate-russian-culture/#comment-4149596

    He is from a multi-generational Ukrainian speaking family (i.e. ethnic Ukrainian) and was born in Ukraine.


    carpetbaggers, it seems)
     
    Well, it's famous that he hates the bluegrass music of Tennessee, but this adjective doesn't sound so negative - they supported the right of all American citizens to vote https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carpetbagger

    Here Be Dragon is from Ukraine but has no Ukrainian roots and is a Russian-speaker of Russian, Jewish and Romanian descent. Essentially, a Homo Sovieticus.

     

    "Homo Sovieticus" refers to a mentality, it's not related to nationality.

    Ukrainian nationalism was the mainstream and official project of the Ukraine from the 1990s. If AnoninTN and Here Be Dragon were children a couple generations later, with some regional change , they would likely have been in the Ukrainian nation-building project.


    and is a Russian-speaker

     

    Most of the Ukrainian military are speaking Russian.

    @Songbird


    he Soviet Union often chose where people would live, and often assigned people outside their ethnic republics, in order to purposefully erode national
     
    There are times when nationalities are settled disproportionately to certain regions. In the 19th century, vast numbers of the Ukrainians are settled in the Far East and Siberia. In Soviet times, engineers are thrown all around. But overall, for the majority of people, it's more the opposite trend. In Soviet times most people are unnaturally fixed as there is an internal closed borders system. There was far more cultural or national homogeneity in the local area. They maintained most people in the same region.

    It's in the last thirty years there is a lot of internal movements. This also increases the accents in some cities, because millions of villagers have been flooding to cities. So, people talk about the "peculiar pronunciation", but accents are usually a lot more strong with the new people flooding into the city.

    Replies: @LatW, @songbird

    Here Be Dragon [..] similar trauma from Ukraine, as both have the same hatred of nationalism.

    “Superhero (or supervillain) origin story” of Here Be Dragon were those fights with Ukrainian villagers.
    https://www.unz.com/akarlin/open-thread-190-russia-ukraine/#comment-5389482

    That was a good quote, thanks for reposting it. I understand those dynamics (I overheard about those brawls from back in the day from my dad once, although he wasn’t involved in those much and the ethnicity dynamics were slightly different). Those were petty turf wars, but this Dragon dude, being part Jewish, is putting the nationalist element in there. Instead he should’ve manned up. The village was good – you get to have plenty of sun and exercise, eat good organic home grown food, work physically, but still have plenty of rest. It is good to balance that with the city life. It’s best to take from both worlds (city and village). His approach must have been too one sided.

    [MORE]

    By the way, he does give a good description of the old Slavic Maslenitsa tradition of “stenka na stenku”. This tradition is a bit wild, but there are rules. I saw that this tradition is live and well in Russia and young boys are involved with it, and they are trained to do it properly now (not the way these otmorozkis apparently used to do it back in the day with boi bez pravil). So things are getting better in some ways, old traditions live on.

    I think they could still be destroyed by artillery.

    Well, they shouldn’t be sent into a large offensive without air support, that would be stupid. All those vehicles, including expensive tanks, would just get destroyed. They need attack helicopters.

    Unless you want the postsoviet border conflict with the poorest country in Europe, to look like the Iran-Iraq war (already too late – it looks like the Iran-Iraq war).

    This is just superstition, but sometimes it looks like there is something sitting in the Kremlin who wants this, almost something infernal. I don’t know if this is true or fake, but there was a Putin quite circulating around recently (in UA sources) where he said about the population of Belgorod “They are [assimilated] Ukrainians there too so let them just kill each other”.

    Even if he wanted to invade Ukraine, Prokhorov would have been more successful. Yeltsin would have been more successful. If you want to win the postsoviet border conflicts, you would use pro-Western rhetoric and diplomatic ambiguity.

    You could fight only a limited war that way because even the lukewarm West can only stomach as much. They probably could’ve stomached some bloodless annexation of parts of Donbas. Even with “diplomatic ambiguity” you can only go so far.

    Although also a dictator who is focused on postsoviet border conflict instead of internal development, A Aliev is an example of the more disciplined and strategic leader than Putin.

    I wouldn’t say Aliev is not focused on internal development, Baku looks good. Azeris also stick to their traditions which keeps them strong.

    He prepares the diplomatic space before the war. Instead of valueless anti-Western rhetoric for years, invited NATO for exercises.

    I think his ambitions are somewhat more realistic in that conflict. Besides Russia used to visit with NATO as well. Russian military visited the Latvian main military base not too long before the war.
    Not sure there is much point in it, but it was going on.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @LatW


    offensive without air support, that would be stupid. All those vehicles, including expensive tanks, would just get destroyed

     

    Both sides don't have air dominance and have difficulty flying for air support.

    Bradley has better optics, longer range missiles, than Soviet vehicles. So, they will have advantage in the direct fire against. But they will be vulnerable for indirect fire from artillery, which has been the main force in the war.

    But NATO countries are now giving Ukraine modern artillery systems and radars. For example, there is a French system called "CAESAR" which they are stocking for Ukraine. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19MvDVlpX_8.

    Although the number of modern weapons they give to Ukraine is small (in larger quantities they give older 1970s equipment), as the war continues, Ukraine will receive such kind of qualitative advances. It seems like NATO countries don't want to give too many weapons to Ukraine at the same time though.


    he should’ve manned up. The village was good
     
    If I remember scrolling one of the AP/Here Be Dragon discussions (those discussions were a bit mentally ill from both sides, to it mildly). And it was about his favorite friend was killed by those Ukrainian villagers.
    https://www.unz.com/akarlin/open-thread-192/#comment-5451545

    Although his stories often mixed with the Kremlin propaganda and other crazy things. Still, there is real experience and tragedy there. https://www.unz.com/akarlin/open-thread-192/#comment-5451545

    c Maslenitsa tradition of “stenka na stenku”. This tradition is a bit wild, but there are rules. I saw that this tradition is live and well in Russia
     
    You are talking about Russia today, some hobbyists arranging for "historical re-enactment" in the village festival. You like this for aesthetic reasons etc. It would be popular on Instagram under hashtag "cottagecore". But unless I misinterpret (his posts were written in confusing way), I think he was just talking about real fights.

    Being attacked by hooligans, is not cottagecore. It seems to me the problem for him, was living near hooligans, which he associates to their specific nationality. It's the same thing Americans like Steve Sailer are worried about in Los Angeles, they don't want to be beaten.

    Whether there is a national aspect to why he was beaten because he wasn't speaking Ukrainian dialect? It's not always clear. Some people claimed the "knock out game" in America is nationally motivated violence. Americans are beaten by African American gangs and then become racist against African Americans. Here Be Dragon was beaten by Ukrainian gangs and is now racist against Ukrainians.

    There were quite few parts of the USSR and later with those problems. In most regions there no national aspect for violence, but in some zones the violence can have nationalism as an additional layer (as in the knock-out game could be in Brooklyn has some national disharmony related to it). And this ordinary violence has been sometimes the sociological prelude before real wars (e.g. Azerbaijan vs Armenia).


    something sitting in the Kremlin who wants something infernal

     

    It could be explained by the Greek tragedy, between hubris and nemesis. Or less dramatically the gambler in the casino with the "sunk costs". Or frog with softly changing water temperature.

    But there can be also the overlapping motives. For example, Putin's government will increase control by reducing the proportion of men in the 20s age group, so this can be viewed as not fully negative by them.

    This is common many times in history, that the rulers want to reduce the number of young men in the society. War is useful for rulers to reduce the proportion of young men, reducing the revolutionary potential of the population.

    In the milder version, Lukashenko is very happy to encourage the young people in Belarus to emigrate, as the older population is more stable to control.


    Aliev is not focused on internal development, Baku looks good.
     
    That is often the postsoviet scam, like in Moscow, they throw the country's money on it, so it becomes now like a fake Switzerland that distracts from the need for forensic accountants. As the gangster invests to have very shiny shoes. Or a company has expensive corporate events. It effects the primitive apes' brains that sees "money and power".

    When you saw something unbalanced like that, you really want to have the corporate accountants to see what they are really doing with the money. If they throw all this money in the center of the city, you should be asking more to see the accountant's analysis.

    Just like mafia wearing very expensive suits, is not necessarily indication of a good accounting.


    traditions which keeps them strong.
     
    Well, they have a competent army, so it's not analogous for all the postsoviet countries. They have a competent multi-vector external policy.

    Russia used to visit with NATO as well. Russian military visited the Latvian main military base not too long before
     
    There has been almost 20 years of anti-Western rhetoric. It's not multi-vector policy. With a pro-Western leader like Prokhorov, there would have been more diplomatic (and then military) space for winning the postsoviet border conflicts. Of course, it would be better not to enter those border conflicts. It's the 21st century, a government working for people would focus on internal development, not bombing your neighbors.

    In Russia, the last 20 years should have been especially an emergency time for internal development and diversifying, as the demand for oil will peak by the 2030s years.
     

    Replies: @LatW, @LatW, @LatW

  922. @Dmitry
    @LatW


    “Russian world” and both
     
    They are from Ukraine, it is their native part of earth, even if the political organization they were born in was the USSR. You can never escape the place you come from as a child. It's one of the deep parts of the personality.

    You go to a new country, at night you still dream you are suddenly back in the old home. Even if I would emigrate to Arizona, I probably would not dream about cactuses.


    supporters of Kremlin
     
    Here Be Dragon was copy/pasting posts from Boris Rozhin (this is a very low quality Kremlin propaganda they spread on the internet in Russia), so some of his posts were Kremlin propaganda/anti-American propaganda. But he was from Ukraine so his point of view will be related to real world at least in terms of its motives.

    Our forum is not a good sample, but AnoninTN and Here Be Dragon are examples similar trauma from Ukraine, as both have the same hatred of nationalism. AnoninTN also says he has hatred of empire (this is rhetoric from Lenin).

    "Superhero (or supervillain) origin story" of Here Be Dragon were those fights with Ukrainian villagers.
    https://www.unz.com/akarlin/open-thread-190-russia-ukraine/#comment-5389482


    like “half tanks” (and they look so damn cool). The main goal is to protect the soldier

     

    I think they could still be destroyed by artillery.

    But it's authentic American equipment, used by the American army in 1991. They have more advanced sensors than any vehicles in the Russian army. And America can continue increasing the temperature of the water. Or they could continue allowing Ukraine to fight, just using old equipment from the 1970s American warehouses.

    There is the strange incompetence of Putin, that he has become enemies of advanced countries, in exchange for valueless anti-Western rhetoric. If he wanted to win the postsoviet border conflicts, it's a significant mistake to motivate powerful countries to support your enemy.*

    Even if he wanted to invade Ukraine, Prokhorov would have been more successful. Yeltsin would have been more successful. If you want to win the postsoviet border conflicts, you would use pro-Western rhetoric and diplomatic ambiguity.

    Although also a dictator who is focused on postsoviet border conflict instead of internal development, A Aliev is an example of the more disciplined and strategic leader than Putin. He prepares the diplomatic space before the war. Instead of valueless anti-Western rhetoric for years, invited NATO for exercises.


    -
    *Unless you want the postsoviet border conflict with the poorest country in Europe, to look like the Iran-Iraq war (already too late - it looks like the Iran-Iraq war). Aliev was fighting for 6 weeks.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09TnwicyQx8


    @AP


    Ukrainian from Ukraine posting here was angry at me
     
    AnoninTN can write himself. But he says he is not just from Ukraine, but has been Ukrainian speaking with his grandparents, who were Ukrainian speaking people.
    https://www.unz.com/akarlin/ukro-khazars-trying-to-appropriate-russian-culture/#comment-4149596

    He is from a multi-generational Ukrainian speaking family (i.e. ethnic Ukrainian) and was born in Ukraine.


    carpetbaggers, it seems)
     
    Well, it's famous that he hates the bluegrass music of Tennessee, but this adjective doesn't sound so negative - they supported the right of all American citizens to vote https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carpetbagger

    Here Be Dragon is from Ukraine but has no Ukrainian roots and is a Russian-speaker of Russian, Jewish and Romanian descent. Essentially, a Homo Sovieticus.

     

    "Homo Sovieticus" refers to a mentality, it's not related to nationality.

    Ukrainian nationalism was the mainstream and official project of the Ukraine from the 1990s. If AnoninTN and Here Be Dragon were children a couple generations later, with some regional change , they would likely have been in the Ukrainian nation-building project.


    and is a Russian-speaker

     

    Most of the Ukrainian military are speaking Russian.

    @Songbird


    he Soviet Union often chose where people would live, and often assigned people outside their ethnic republics, in order to purposefully erode national
     
    There are times when nationalities are settled disproportionately to certain regions. In the 19th century, vast numbers of the Ukrainians are settled in the Far East and Siberia. In Soviet times, engineers are thrown all around. But overall, for the majority of people, it's more the opposite trend. In Soviet times most people are unnaturally fixed as there is an internal closed borders system. There was far more cultural or national homogeneity in the local area. They maintained most people in the same region.

    It's in the last thirty years there is a lot of internal movements. This also increases the accents in some cities, because millions of villagers have been flooding to cities. So, people talk about the "peculiar pronunciation", but accents are usually a lot more strong with the new people flooding into the city.

    Replies: @LatW, @songbird

    In the 19th century, vast numbers of the Ukrainians are settled in the Far East and Siberia.

    I once saw a map, where it seemed that that Ukrainians were the more predominant group all along the South.

    It reminded me of an early idea for the US, after the Thirteen Colonies gained independence, and new land West was open for settlement. There was an idea for each state to get new land in the unsettled West. Sort of extending their borders along latitudinal lines. Of course, New York wouldn’t have gotten the full area to its West, but Massachusetts and Connecticut been given long narrow areas, roughly following the lines of their borders.

    • Replies: @LatW
    @songbird



    Russia doesn’t accept an independent Ukraine.

     

    Nor does America.
     
    America won't be able to fully control Ukraine, while Russia could damage Ukraine severely or decimate her. America cannot fully control even Poland, much less a country such as Ukraine. American meddling, while problematic, is a lesser evil, especially in the current picture.

    A Chechen war leader once said that America keeps her sheep without putting a fence around the herd, but when danger comes, America may or may not show up to help, whereas Russia keeps her sheep well fenced in, without freedom, but during times of danger, Russia will protect her sheep. But in this case, Russia is killing the sheep so it's a no go.


    I once saw a map, where it seemed that that Ukrainians were the more predominant group all along the South.

    It reminded me of an early idea for the US, after the Thirteen Colonies gained independence, and new land West was open for settlement. There was an idea for each state to get new land in the unsettled West.
     

    In the US it was half empty colonized land, whereas in case of Ukraine, all those areas in the South, Ukrainians used to live there for hundreds of years (and their ancestors or close relatives even longer before that), those are all core indigenous Ukrainian lands.

    Replies: @songbird

  923. @songbird
    @Dmitry


    In the 19th century, vast numbers of the Ukrainians are settled in the Far East and Siberia.
     
    I once saw a map, where it seemed that that Ukrainians were the more predominant group all along the South.

    It reminded me of an early idea for the US, after the Thirteen Colonies gained independence, and new land West was open for settlement. There was an idea for each state to get new land in the unsettled West. Sort of extending their borders along latitudinal lines. Of course, New York wouldn't have gotten the full area to its West, but Massachusetts and Connecticut been given long narrow areas, roughly following the lines of their borders.

    Replies: @LatW

    Russia doesn’t accept an independent Ukraine.

    Nor does America.

    America won’t be able to fully control Ukraine, while Russia could damage Ukraine severely or decimate her. America cannot fully control even Poland, much less a country such as Ukraine. American meddling, while problematic, is a lesser evil, especially in the current picture.

    A Chechen war leader once said that America keeps her sheep without putting a fence around the herd, but when danger comes, America may or may not show up to help, whereas Russia keeps her sheep well fenced in, without freedom, but during times of danger, Russia will protect her sheep. But in this case, Russia is killing the sheep so it’s a no go.

    I once saw a map, where it seemed that that Ukrainians were the more predominant group all along the South.

    It reminded me of an early idea for the US, after the Thirteen Colonies gained independence, and new land West was open for settlement. There was an idea for each state to get new land in the unsettled West.

    In the US it was half empty colonized land, whereas in case of Ukraine, all those areas in the South, Ukrainians used to live there for hundreds of years (and their ancestors or close relatives even longer before that), those are all core indigenous Ukrainian lands.

    • Replies: @songbird
    @LatW


    America cannot fully control even Poland
     
    I'm not convinced of this.

    I see absolutely no real sign of Poland bucking Western hegemony. Borders are effectively open. Very Boomercon. No advocacy for Western Europeans. At best, it is like the American red state (I mean as in Moldbug's two states: essentially controlled op that channels nationalism into usable and safe ends) - where it aligns with the American MIC and interventionism, while not being super-woke, but showing no real opposition to it.

    Am sure you know the politics better than I. I know that the nationalist party is supposedly popular among youth or something. But with over a hundred thousand non-Euro migrants a year, how long can that last? (And I think there's been buzz about Austria's party which never really materialized, they punished their youth wing IIRC)

    How can there be hope with open borders? Yes, I know they are shooting water cannons at the Belarus border, or something. But illegal/legal doesn't make much difference, if they can't even articulate the idea that it is not good to replace the population.

    Poland was seriously the only country I had hope for. If there were a state of about 40 million Europeans, then I think it would be more functional and powerful than Germany in 2050. With native Germans as a willing fifth column, it could gain territory and maybe, become a state of 60-80 million. Still small compared to others, but perhaps enough to be a base for a slow reconquest.

    I've never had that hope for Ukraine. It's elites appear to be very Jewish and aligned with US/Israel.

    those are all core indigenous Ukrainian lands.
     
    I was speaking of territory outside of Ukraine's borders, extending a long line into the Far East. I don't think they were necessarily the majority there, but a bigger group than Russians, or so it seemed from my quick glance. Imagine it was mostly from before USSR.

    Replies: @LatW

  924. LatW wrote:

    This is just superstition, but sometimes it looks like there is something sitting in the Kremlin who wants this [border war], almost something infernal.

    If Putin is somewhat of a figurehead and bureaucratic administrator, who do you think in Russia pulls his strings? From my limited information he seems to have some agency, but I imagine there may also be powerful forces defining and guiding his policies.

  925. @songbird
    @Yahya


    >That is what Jordan Peterson advocates. BTW, do you know that he recently came out for regime change in Iran?

    Is the second sentence supposed to follow from the first?
     
    Some people say he has always been a tool of the establishment. Promoting individualism among Euros, while also promoting Zionism. That's why he was promoted and achieved his fame and fortune. Right now, he is working for Ben Shapiro.

    https://twitter.com/RyLiberty/status/1618204909329080325?s=20&t=9o64v4_O0hM8J1v1yltw9g
    https://youtu.be/TeAWbUl22FU

    But I support regime change in Iran too
     
    He appears to be supporting America-led regime change. Seems fairly likely that he is influenced by Zionism.

    https://twitter.com/PrisonPlanet/status/1620850938532761601?s=20&t=9o64v4_O0hM8J1v1yltw9g

    Irish-Americans like Ted Kennedy played a major role in passing the Immigration and Nationality Act of 1965; which I presume you think is one of the defining pieces of legislation to have ruined in America. So you have to own up to it
     
    . A lot wrong with this argument. I'll just mention a few things.

    Civil War was fought without any significant Irish political influence. Lincoln did away with all sorts of rights, and imposed an income tax, all without Irish involvement (if anything Irish immigrants were against it), unless you count the importation of unwilling meat bags for the army.

    Australia had no Puritans. Irish were completely foundational, without any caveats. They had a whites only policy, until they started to follow America's lead.

    Have you seen who voted (in Congress) for the Civil Rights Act? Hint: more Republicans than Dems (though most the Dems were objecting for bad reasons) Anyway, takeaway is Congress was completely cucked. Both sides of it.

    Elections matter very little. Who believes that the American public ever voted to open the borders to the Third World? No country did, but here we are. What matters only is elite opinion.

    Final thing I'd mention is that a lot of people pointing to the Irish have various shortcomings, and have had them historically. Disraeli did it (NOT English). Academic Agent does it now (NOT English). Scott Greer does it (doesn't want to talk about who really holds power because he understands the consequences.)

    But sorry; the idea just doesn’t hold water for African-Americans.
     
    I was trying to prompt you to refine your argument. But you still seem stuck on the construction "because they are citizens." IMO, a rather inelegant justification because we can virtually extend it to any geography based on the one-time loophole of anyone being granted citizenship, through any corrupt, but legal or else elite-approved process.

    I suspect that you really want to say "because they were slaves," which would have the merit of being geographically-limiting. Or, maybe, that you are grandfathered in after a similar period of time, or number of generations, whatever your origin or effect on society. (Woe to Europe!) But I don't want try to argue your case for you.

    Again, just very hypocritical to call them invaders and intruders.
     
    They don't support freedom of association. That's a foundational value, and means that they have invaded and intruded into countless places and organizations.

    Anyway, to be a hypocrite, I'd have to be inconsistent in my own views, but I am not. My views are that blacks don't have the same civilizational capacity (broadly speaking - theoretically, they could be segregated into more functional fractions) And that it's been a disaster for Euros to pretend that they do, and far from all the damage already being done and the dust-settled, or us being able to rebuild, it is a growing disaster, with potentially no upper limit.

    I'm not a loon for thinking so either. Seventy years after the Irish arrived in masse, Boston was still a fairly normal place. But what is it like seventy years after blacks started arriving in masse?

    https://twitter.com/GraceSm73368432/status/1620359457585926144?s=20&t=9o64v4_O0hM8J1v1yltw9g

    How many is “a lot”?
     
    South practically wasn't planting cotton until about 1794. Have you heard of Jim Bowie? Pretty famous here, there's a knife named after him, and he died at the Alamo. Most don't know he was a slave smuggler, started in about 1818. Who knows exactly how many? But I'd be very surprised if it wasn't a large number because the financial inducements were there. Bowie didn't do it based on principles, but for money. (just think of illegal immigration today)

    Do you really think; if we trace back the ancestry of African and Irish Americans; that your people would on average be of older stock than blacks?
     
    Chronological arrival argument is a faulty one, IMO.

    Are blacks supposed to be "foundational?" They couldn't vote. Abolitionism was partly a movement to prevent the Midwest from becoming populated with blacks. Abe Lincoln said they'd have to be resettled, if they were freed because it would destroy society, since they lacked the same capacities. At first, he wanted to settle them in Central America (not USA), but Central Americans were incensed and opposed the plan.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linconia

    Replies: @S, @Coconuts, @S, @Yahya

    My views are that blacks don’t have the same civilizational capacity (broadly speaking – theoretically, they could be segregated into more functional fractions) And that it’s been a disaster for Euros to pretend that they do, and far from all the damage already being done and the dust-settled, or us being able to rebuild, it is a growing disaster, with potentially no upper limit.

    Taking both reality and history into account, it is criminal and without excuse putting Blacks and Whites together.

    [MORE]

    Blacks, ie sub-Saharan Africans with their dominant genes, are death for Euro-peoples, both in the genetic sense, and quite often in the physical sense, as quite contrary to the so called ‘progressive’ propagandists and hangers on with their sick Black fetishism, which has been passed down to them from their political and spiritual forebears time as New England slave dealers/owners, it is Euro peoples (ie the ‘Whites’) who are routinely killed by Blacks while simply innocently existing, and it is the Blacks who almost invariably, and with only the rare exception, that are lawfully killed by police (or others) while in the act of committing a crime.

    What’s more, these so called progressives and their collaborating hangers on, very well know this, as do their Black slaves, still slaves as in my view in a certain sense the Blacks never were in reality freed, and still are enslaved as political pawns and engines of destruction by their hatred consumed progressive overseers.

    It is all too many non-exploiting Whites, the vast majority of whom did not own slaves, that seem to be clueless about the actual situation. And the solution has remained the same since 1619 in Jamestown and about the same time in Massachusetts, when sub-Saharan Africans were
    first imported in by diktat to be made chattel slaves, the same as alien wage slaves (so called ‘cheap labor’) were later and are still today imported in by diktat for the same self-centered and greedy reasons by the same types, to denounce and wholly separate both individually and collectively from such narcissistic people.

    Let’s hear what what one of the prog’s Black slaves and one of their ‘revolutionarys’, Eldridge Cleaver, a convicted rapist, had to say about the actual motivation of Blacks in general being with White women.

    He describes this motivation as often being of a ‘bloody, hateful, bitter, and malignant’ nature, and decidedly not for any esthetic reasons. Cleaver spoke the actual truth of the matter.

    ‘I know that the black man’s sick attitude toward the white woman is a revolutionary sickness: it keeps him perpetually out of harmony with the system that is oppressing him. Many whites flatter themselves with the idea that the Negro male’s lust and desire for the white dream girl is purely an esthetic attraction, but nothing could be further from the truth. His motivation is often of such a bloody, hateful, bitter, and malignant nature that whites would really be hard pressed to find it flattering.’ Eldridge Cleaver

    https://www.azquotes.com/quote/686955

    • Replies: @songbird
    @S


    >But I really do wonder if it took a Catholic to make a movie like that.

    I wouldn’t know.
     

    I sometimes get the feeling that there was something different from normal Hollywood in people like John Ford and Frank Capra and Hal Roach (once a collaborator with Harold LLoyd) (not sure Roach was Catholic - but sounds like his father was native Irish). Some say that Scorsese is very influenced by his faith. Not sure how true it is, and I think Ford was certainly a sinner. I don't want to put too fine an ideological stamp on it (maybe I could add a few others, like Danny Thomas and Ricardo Montalban, while too many more would go against the idea) but what I really mean is that having that identity just seems to have once led to something a bit different from standard Hollywood. Perhaps, the same was true of Protestants. Believe Disney was the only major studio not owned by Jews, at least at one time - and Walt (whatever his detractors say) seemed to really have a thing for European folktales and aesthetics.

    Some people really revile Darby O'Gill but I admit I quite liked it. At one point, they warn the girl that she is getting old and needs to settle down. I really liked that scene with the leprechaun where he saved the old man from dying because he wanted to laugh at him struggling in the mud.


    Taking both reality and history into account, it is criminal and without excuse putting Blacks and Whites together.
     
    Simon Webb recently mentioned an interesting Moroccan saying that was about 800 years old and apparently still used: "When white women fight, they pull hair. When black women fight, they spill blood."

    Greatly disagree with this idea that some have that blacks are somehow foundational to American society. The truth is that they have been located within the same broad geography (and the US, even at its beginning, was a massive country geographically), though, traditionally in concentrated, constrained areas, with all sorts of checks and limits on their behavior.

    Even when they were the most constrained, under slavery, they were still inspiring radical, revolutionary whites like John Brown (who was financially-backed by Northern elites). And the violation of all sorts of civil liberties, under Lincoln, not to mention the war itself which was massively violent and resulted in a not insubstantial percentage of the male population dying. The Civil War was the first time a federal income tax was collected - it fed the appetite of the beast.

    Since then, it has been the case of one boundary after another being eroded, seemingly with no geographic limit. Usually by people who have no skin in the game and despise the people who actually live near blacks. Just an endlessly repeating and advancing process. Once it happened in Boston. Now it is happening in Dublin.


    As an aside, I thought that scene’s music (ie ‘Paddy’s Lament’) had been made up just for the movie, but apparently it was a real US Civil War era Irish ballad.
     
    Ireland (I suppose like most countries) once had a really incredible musical tradition. That was when the only music was live music, and the country was absolutely full of pubs. I suppose that there was a cost to it, having so many men be musicians as well as drinkers - it wasn't efficient. And the same was true of story-tellers and poets. But I think it did result in a stronger sense of identity and culture.

    I've sometimes wondered what percentage of people sang or played an instrument back then, compared to now. Must be a really big difference. (I think it was basically everyone who sang, and if you didn't, then they demanded you did.)

    Replies: @S

  926. @LatW
    @songbird



    Russia doesn’t accept an independent Ukraine.

     

    Nor does America.
     
    America won't be able to fully control Ukraine, while Russia could damage Ukraine severely or decimate her. America cannot fully control even Poland, much less a country such as Ukraine. American meddling, while problematic, is a lesser evil, especially in the current picture.

    A Chechen war leader once said that America keeps her sheep without putting a fence around the herd, but when danger comes, America may or may not show up to help, whereas Russia keeps her sheep well fenced in, without freedom, but during times of danger, Russia will protect her sheep. But in this case, Russia is killing the sheep so it's a no go.


    I once saw a map, where it seemed that that Ukrainians were the more predominant group all along the South.

    It reminded me of an early idea for the US, after the Thirteen Colonies gained independence, and new land West was open for settlement. There was an idea for each state to get new land in the unsettled West.
     

    In the US it was half empty colonized land, whereas in case of Ukraine, all those areas in the South, Ukrainians used to live there for hundreds of years (and their ancestors or close relatives even longer before that), those are all core indigenous Ukrainian lands.

    Replies: @songbird

    America cannot fully control even Poland

    I’m not convinced of this.

    [MORE]

    I see absolutely no real sign of Poland bucking Western hegemony. Borders are effectively open. Very Boomercon. No advocacy for Western Europeans. At best, it is like the American red state (I mean as in Moldbug’s two states: essentially controlled op that channels nationalism into usable and safe ends) – where it aligns with the American MIC and interventionism, while not being super-woke, but showing no real opposition to it.

    Am sure you know the politics better than I. I know that the nationalist party is supposedly popular among youth or something. But with over a hundred thousand non-Euro migrants a year, how long can that last? (And I think there’s been buzz about Austria’s party which never really materialized, they punished their youth wing IIRC)

    How can there be hope with open borders? Yes, I know they are shooting water cannons at the Belarus border, or something. But illegal/legal doesn’t make much difference, if they can’t even articulate the idea that it is not good to replace the population.

    Poland was seriously the only country I had hope for. If there were a state of about 40 million Europeans, then I think it would be more functional and powerful than Germany in 2050. With native Germans as a willing fifth column, it could gain territory and maybe, become a state of 60-80 million. Still small compared to others, but perhaps enough to be a base for a slow reconquest.

    I’ve never had that hope for Ukraine. It’s elites appear to be very Jewish and aligned with US/Israel.

    those are all core indigenous Ukrainian lands.

    I was speaking of territory outside of Ukraine’s borders, extending a long line into the Far East. I don’t think they were necessarily the majority there, but a bigger group than Russians, or so it seemed from my quick glance. Imagine it was mostly from before USSR.

    • Replies: @LatW
    @songbird


    Poland was seriously the only country I had hope for. If there were a state of about 40 million Europeans, then I think it would be more functional and powerful than Germany in 2050. With native Germans as a willing fifth column, it could gain territory and maybe, become a state of 60-80 million. Still small compared to others, but perhaps enough to be a base for a slow reconquest.
     
    If you're talking about reconquista, then that's a different topic. What I was talking about was the influence of the US State Department and other Western institutions on the internal decision making process within the country. For a reconquista, one would need more than one country. It would still be difficult, because most people even in EE are not WNs, not because America told them so, but because they cannot be bothered, they care about other things more. But I think the Polish immigration law is still more conservative and tight than German or French.

    No advocacy for Western Europeans.
     
    Well, how do you see such advocacy from the side of CEEs, in practical terms?

    I was speaking of territory outside of Ukraine’s borders, extending a long line into the Far East.
     
    Yes, outside of current Ukraine's borders, in Krasnodar and Stavropol krai. Although they settled there quite late.

    Replies: @songbird

  927. @songbird
    @S

    Yes, that was a very good scene. Wouldn't say that I am an especial fanboy of Scorsese - haven't seen most of his movies and some famous ones, like Raging Bull I found unappealing. But I really do wonder if it took a Catholic to make a movie like that.

    Maybe, it is a mistake to attribute it all to the director. (And at least one of the writers was half-Jewish). But to compare it to another movie that seemed to have heavier Jewish involvement, if not a Jewish director (actually the director shared an ancestor with Mitt Romney), An American Tail, there's seems to be a sharp contrast in themes. (Or at least as far as I can recall, my memory of it is pretty poor). And those seem to be the predominant themes of Hollywood.

    Unfortunately, Gangs of New York was marred a bit by a very horrible song by U2, after they had really declined.

    Replies: @S

    Yes, that was a very good scene. Wouldn’t say that I am an especial fanboy of Scorsese…But I really do wonder if it took a Catholic to make a movie like that.

    I wouldn’t know. It does seem every now and again a Hollywood movie will present something close to the truth, such as that particular scene. I imagine it might be only later they realize what had occurred and do their very best to make sure it doesn’t happen again. 😀

    Unfortunately, Gangs of New York was marred a bit by a very horrible song by U2, after they had really declined.

    Hehe. That reminds me how one time the subject of U2 came up, and an Irish acquaintance of mine immediately piped up with ‘Bono make it better!’ Apparently within Ireland and amongst the Irish people there is something that might be called ‘Bono fatigue’ which has set in.

    As an aside, I thought that scene’s music (ie ‘Paddy’s Lament’) had been made up just for the movie, but apparently it was a real US Civil War era Irish ballad. Interesting lyrics in regards to ‘Lincoln’s War.’

    Sinead O’Connor performs the song when she still had a bit of hair.

    • Replies: @S
    @S

    Correction regarding the aforementioned lyric: it should be 'you must go And fight for Lincoln' rather than 'Lincoln's war'.

    , @songbird
    @S

    Here's a much lesser known song about the social damage caused by emigration:
    https://youtu.be/DiPhRTCSJM0

    Not intended as a war song (or so I suspect), but I always thought it would be a good song to have as a background for young men going to war and getting killed in a meat-grinder.

    One about migrant laborers in England:
    https://youtu.be/zMvv3LL94GM

    Ronnie Drew was actually my favorite singer of all the Dubliners.

    Replies: @S

  928. @S
    @songbird


    Yes, that was a very good scene. Wouldn’t say that I am an especial fanboy of Scorsese...But I really do wonder if it took a Catholic to make a movie like that.
     
    I wouldn't know. It does seem every now and again a Hollywood movie will present something close to the truth, such as that particular scene. I imagine it might be only later they realize what had occurred and do their very best to make sure it doesn't happen again. :-D

    Unfortunately, Gangs of New York was marred a bit by a very horrible song by U2, after they had really declined.
     
    Hehe. That reminds me how one time the subject of U2 came up, and an Irish acquaintance of mine immediately piped up with 'Bono make it better!' Apparently within Ireland and amongst the Irish people there is something that might be called 'Bono fatigue' which has set in.

    As an aside, I thought that scene's music (ie 'Paddy's Lament') had been made up just for the movie, but apparently it was a real US Civil War era Irish ballad. Interesting lyrics in regards to 'Lincoln's War.'

    Sinead O'Connor performs the song when she still had a bit of hair.


    https://youtu.be/FKUNfmb2Ir8

    Replies: @S, @songbird

    Correction regarding the aforementioned lyric: it should be ‘you must go And fight for Lincoln’ rather than ‘Lincoln’s war’.

  929. @LatW
    @Another Polish Perspective


    As for Ukraine, well, I heard that it is more gay-tolerant than Russia anyway.
     
    Gay & trans overreach, of course, is not good, but what matters in the long run is how healthy and vital the heteros are, that's what matters above all.

    In the old Poland homosexuality seems to have been pretty popular among Cossacks, at least when juxtaposed to Poles.
     
    Well, I'm not sure Poles would have a fully objective view of Ukrainians. :)

    It is known that in male only organizations, all kinds of things happen. Some of it has to do with establishing hierarchy which is very important to these groups.

    It sounds like it had some signs of a military order. You know that the Teutonic Knights were also supposed to be completely chaste and abstinent.

    for this reason Cossacks calling themselves “mołojec” aka “a young dashing man”
     
    Yes, molodec comes from "the young one" but it also means "well done!".

    Replies: @Another Polish Perspective

    Gay & trans overreach, of course, is not good, but what matters in the long run is how healthy and vital the heteros are, that’s what matters above all.

    Gays & Heteros are interconnected since gays are produced by hetero women. I mean I am completely on board of genetic grounds for homosexuality so any “moral” healthiness is irrelevant here.

    Well, I’m not sure Poles would have a fully objective view of Ukrainians.

    Kitowicz is considered a very good historical source, of almost ethnographic standards. Discrediting him as a Pole is both stupid and racist, especially as he didn’t focus on Cossacks in any way; they are one of his many subjects. Of note is also that no one rose to contradict him, “No, Cossacks are not like that, they are sworn heterosexuals who collect spoils to provide for their large families”.

    It is known that in male only organizations, all kinds of things happen. Some of it has to do with establishing hierarchy which is very important to these groups.

    This is both stupid and ridiculous. You are actually saying that homosexuality is latent to all males, and rape is primary way of establishing hierarchy! Is that female obsession with rape or what..? You look to be sex-crazy, LatW! It seems that you have internalized the Western view that sex, and that means ANY sex, is a primary human need which must and will be realized whatever the cost.

    It sounds like it had some signs of a military order. You know that the Teutonic Knights were also supposed to be completely chaste and abstinent.

    Cossacks were no military order, with some exception to register Cossacks (Kozacy rejestrowi) but there were only 6000 of that kind prior to Chmielnicki uprising. That means that in general their organization was voluntary. Yet unlike Polish voluntary military like husaria, they don’t seem to have steady relationships or families or homes to which they would return every year – which is strange. They don’t identify themselves as “son of…” etc. Frankly, they seem to have been much more organized around Spartan-like syssitia system and – like Spartans – only sporadically met with women, if at all. Or, in German terminology, they were typical Maennerbund. Such organizations had strong traces of homosexuality, and in fact Kitowicz description relates typically homosexual way of thinking in their case, which is apparently rampant at Vatican too, at least according to “Sodoma” of Frederic Martel: like Vatican clergy, Cossacks defined the lack of chastity as engaging in sex with women, not with men. According to Kitowicz, Cossacks guilty of that sin were canned to death by their fellows with fresh twigs/canes, a communal canning being a strange custom observed in the past among some Great Goddess followers, with a great description of sexual arousal which accompanies it present in Jose Saramago novel “Balthasar and Blimunda”.

    • Replies: @AP
    @Another Polish Perspective


    Kitowicz is considered a very good historical source, of almost ethnographic standards. Discrediting him as a Pole is both stupid and racist,
     
    No, it's wise in this case because Poles and Cossacks did not get along and after Khmelnytsky uprising. Haidamaks etc. they had a dirty name in Poland. He used some dark legends about Cossacks, citing works by the Ukrainian Institute of History at the Academy of Sciences, Ukrainian wiki summarizes about Kitowicz: "The epithets used in the book in relation to the Cossacks and especially the Haydamaks testify to the author's undisguised hostility towards them. "

    It's amazing that you take his writings about Cossacks seriously (unless you are trolling).

    Replies: @Another Polish Perspective

    , @LatW
    @Another Polish Perspective


    Gays & Heteros are interconnected since gays are produced by hetero women. I mean I am completely on board of genetic grounds for homosexuality so any “moral” healthiness is irrelevant here.
     
    It is quite obvious that they are born that way, that wasn't my point (if not genetic, then because of something that happens in the womb, it could be a vanishing twin - or some kind of a chimera, certainly they have a duality, the Native Americans called them "two souled").

    But I meant politically, not biologically. If heteros weren't out of control, then gays wouldn't be so emboldened politically and would stay on the margins. It's the air of permissiveness and of hyper individualistic immediate gratification that allows this.

    My original point was that what good is it that Russia is less "gay friendly" than Ukraine (even if it were so), when they have major hetero problems.


    This is both stupid and ridiculous. You are actually saying that homosexuality is latent to all males, and rape is primary way of establishing hierarchy!
     
    Chillax. That's not what I said. I said this happens in some orgs, such as Russian prisons, for example. Maybe in Dedovshchina. Of course, by far, not in all male only organizations. And I said it half-jokingly, I was just trying to defend the Cossacks. There was some folk tale apparently that they were so unused to seeing women that they mistook a heron for a girl. But it might have been a hallucination.

    It is quite common knowledge in Ukraine, afaik, that both heterosexual and homosexual relations were punished at Sich, however, I haven't really researched this exciting topic, so don't know a 100%.

  930. @S
    @songbird


    My views are that blacks don’t have the same civilizational capacity (broadly speaking – theoretically, they could be segregated into more functional fractions) And that it’s been a disaster for Euros to pretend that they do, and far from all the damage already being done and the dust-settled, or us being able to rebuild, it is a growing disaster, with potentially no upper limit.
     
    Taking both reality and history into account, it is criminal and without excuse putting Blacks and Whites together.



    Blacks, ie sub-Saharan Africans with their dominant genes, are death for Euro-peoples, both in the genetic sense, and quite often in the physical sense, as quite contrary to the so called 'progressive' propagandists and hangers on with their sick Black fetishism, which has been passed down to them from their political and spiritual forebears time as New England slave dealers/owners, it is Euro peoples (ie the 'Whites') who are routinely killed by Blacks while simply innocently existing, and it is the Blacks who almost invariably, and with only the rare exception, that are lawfully killed by police (or others) while in the act of committing a crime.

    What's more, these so called progressives and their collaborating hangers on, very well know this, as do their Black slaves, still slaves as in my view in a certain sense the Blacks never were in reality freed, and still are enslaved as political pawns and engines of destruction by their hatred consumed progressive overseers.

    It is all too many non-exploiting Whites, the vast majority of whom did not own slaves, that seem to be clueless about the actual situation. And the solution has remained the same since 1619 in Jamestown and about the same time in Massachusetts, when sub-Saharan Africans were
    first imported in by diktat to be made chattel slaves, the same as alien wage slaves (so called 'cheap labor') were later and are still today imported in by diktat for the same self-centered and greedy reasons by the same types, to denounce and wholly separate both individually and collectively from such narcissistic people.

    Let's hear what what one of the prog's Black slaves and one of their 'revolutionarys', Eldridge Cleaver, a convicted rapist, had to say about the actual motivation of Blacks in general being with White women.

    He describes this motivation as often being of a 'bloody, hateful, bitter, and malignant' nature, and decidedly not for any esthetic reasons. Cleaver spoke the actual truth of the matter.

    'I know that the black man's sick attitude toward the white woman is a revolutionary sickness: it keeps him perpetually out of harmony with the system that is oppressing him. Many whites flatter themselves with the idea that the Negro male's lust and desire for the white dream girl is purely an esthetic attraction, but nothing could be further from the truth. His motivation is often of such a bloody, hateful, bitter, and malignant nature that whites would really be hard pressed to find it flattering.' Eldridge Cleaver
     
    https://www.azquotes.com/quote/686955

    Replies: @songbird

    >But I really do wonder if it took a Catholic to make a movie like that.

    I wouldn’t know.

    I sometimes get the feeling that there was something different from normal Hollywood in people like John Ford and Frank Capra and Hal Roach (once a collaborator with Harold LLoyd)

    [MORE]
    (not sure Roach was Catholic – but sounds like his father was native Irish). Some say that Scorsese is very influenced by his faith. Not sure how true it is, and I think Ford was certainly a sinner. I don’t want to put too fine an ideological stamp on it (maybe I could add a few others, like Danny Thomas and Ricardo Montalban, while too many more would go against the idea) but what I really mean is that having that identity just seems to have once led to something a bit different from standard Hollywood. Perhaps, the same was true of Protestants. Believe Disney was the only major studio not owned by Jews, at least at one time – and Walt (whatever his detractors say) seemed to really have a thing for European folktales and aesthetics.

    Some people really revile Darby O’Gill but I admit I quite liked it. At one point, they warn the girl that she is getting old and needs to settle down. I really liked that scene with the leprechaun where he saved the old man from dying because he wanted to laugh at him struggling in the mud.

    Taking both reality and history into account, it is criminal and without excuse putting Blacks and Whites together.

    Simon Webb recently mentioned an interesting Moroccan saying that was about 800 years old and apparently still used: “When white women fight, they pull hair. When black women fight, they spill blood.”

    Greatly disagree with this idea that some have that blacks are somehow foundational to American society. The truth is that they have been located within the same broad geography (and the US, even at its beginning, was a massive country geographically), though, traditionally in concentrated, constrained areas, with all sorts of checks and limits on their behavior.

    Even when they were the most constrained, under slavery, they were still inspiring radical, revolutionary whites like John Brown (who was financially-backed by Northern elites). And the violation of all sorts of civil liberties, under Lincoln, not to mention the war itself which was massively violent and resulted in a not insubstantial percentage of the male population dying. The Civil War was the first time a federal income tax was collected – it fed the appetite of the beast.

    Since then, it has been the case of one boundary after another being eroded, seemingly with no geographic limit. Usually by people who have no skin in the game and despise the people who actually live near blacks. Just an endlessly repeating and advancing process. Once it happened in Boston. Now it is happening in Dublin.

    As an aside, I thought that scene’s music (ie ‘Paddy’s Lament’) had been made up just for the movie, but apparently it was a real US Civil War era Irish ballad.

    Ireland (I suppose like most countries) once had a really incredible musical tradition. That was when the only music was live music, and the country was absolutely full of pubs. I suppose that there was a cost to it, having so many men be musicians as well as drinkers – it wasn’t efficient. And the same was true of story-tellers and poets. But I think it did result in a stronger sense of identity and culture.

    I’ve sometimes wondered what percentage of people sang or played an instrument back then, compared to now. Must be a really big difference. (I think it was basically everyone who sang, and if you didn’t, then they demanded you did.)

    • Replies: @S
    @songbird

    One could say, that since the time of the founding of the United States, that there were two countries at war with each other. The one, a traditional ethnic (ie racially based) country, which people since the founding of the United States had been led to believe they had, particularly in times of war, and another United States, which was promoted by powerful elements amongst the elites and their hangers on, which was to be the spearhead of a future global super state and empire, the United States of the World.

    I, probably along with most, think the traditional ethnic state was better, but due to the very nature of the United States, with it's secret societies, which many probably didn't understand what they were up to (though they ought to have), the odds have always probably been against the traditional ethnic state succeeding.


    Some people really revile Darby O’Gill but I admit I quite liked it.
     
    I was going to watch this on YouTube but found out, even over sixty years old as it is, it still has to be bought or rented. Some of the clips though show it had good special effects. I was surprised to see Sean Connery in it. It looks to have been an okay movie.

    Replies: @songbird

  931. @Another Polish Perspective
    @LatW


    Gay & trans overreach, of course, is not good, but what matters in the long run is how healthy and vital the heteros are, that’s what matters above all.
     
    Gays & Heteros are interconnected since gays are produced by hetero women. I mean I am completely on board of genetic grounds for homosexuality so any "moral" healthiness is irrelevant here.

    Well, I’m not sure Poles would have a fully objective view of Ukrainians.
     
    Kitowicz is considered a very good historical source, of almost ethnographic standards. Discrediting him as a Pole is both stupid and racist, especially as he didn't focus on Cossacks in any way; they are one of his many subjects. Of note is also that no one rose to contradict him, "No, Cossacks are not like that, they are sworn heterosexuals who collect spoils to provide for their large families".

    It is known that in male only organizations, all kinds of things happen. Some of it has to do with establishing hierarchy which is very important to these groups.
     
    This is both stupid and ridiculous. You are actually saying that homosexuality is latent to all males, and rape is primary way of establishing hierarchy! Is that female obsession with rape or what..? You look to be sex-crazy, LatW! It seems that you have internalized the Western view that sex, and that means ANY sex, is a primary human need which must and will be realized whatever the cost.

    It sounds like it had some signs of a military order. You know that the Teutonic Knights were also supposed to be completely chaste and abstinent.
     
    Cossacks were no military order, with some exception to register Cossacks (Kozacy rejestrowi) but there were only 6000 of that kind prior to Chmielnicki uprising. That means that in general their organization was voluntary. Yet unlike Polish voluntary military like husaria, they don't seem to have steady relationships or families or homes to which they would return every year - which is strange. They don't identify themselves as "son of..." etc. Frankly, they seem to have been much more organized around Spartan-like syssitia system and - like Spartans - only sporadically met with women, if at all. Or, in German terminology, they were typical Maennerbund. Such organizations had strong traces of homosexuality, and in fact Kitowicz description relates typically homosexual way of thinking in their case, which is apparently rampant at Vatican too, at least according to "Sodoma" of Frederic Martel: like Vatican clergy, Cossacks defined the lack of chastity as engaging in sex with women, not with men. According to Kitowicz, Cossacks guilty of that sin were canned to death by their fellows with fresh twigs/canes, a communal canning being a strange custom observed in the past among some Great Goddess followers, with a great description of sexual arousal which accompanies it present in Jose Saramago novel "Balthasar and Blimunda".

    Replies: @AP, @LatW

    Kitowicz is considered a very good historical source, of almost ethnographic standards. Discrediting him as a Pole is both stupid and racist,

    No, it’s wise in this case because Poles and Cossacks did not get along and after Khmelnytsky uprising. Haidamaks etc. they had a dirty name in Poland. He used some dark legends about Cossacks, citing works by the Ukrainian Institute of History at the Academy of Sciences, Ukrainian wiki summarizes about Kitowicz: “The epithets used in the book in relation to the Cossacks and especially the Haydamaks testify to the author’s undisguised hostility towards them. ”

    It’s amazing that you take his writings about Cossacks seriously (unless you are trolling).

    • Replies: @Another Polish Perspective
    @AP

    Well, you are rather arrogant. You are aware that your statement is a warrant for following statements, statements which generally cancel any possibility of Polish-Ukrainian understanding, which again makes clear the fact that Ukrainians aren't able to own their mistakes. This last, sleazy, snake-like element is present in the old Polish nickname for Ukrainians aka 'jaszczurcza nacja" or lizard/reptilian nation. Well, there is this short rhyme, well known in Poland, which conveys that both Tatars and Cossacks are not to be trusted: "Złapał Kozak Tatarzyna/a Tatarzyn za łeb trzyma", which loosely translated means "A Cossack has caught a Tatar but the Tatar holds a knife to Cossack's head". In another words, it means that even if they are captive, both Tatars and Cossacks will try to turn this captivity to their advantage in some ways. Which you actually demonstrated pretty well - "dark legends" without refuting them with any credible arguments about the matter itself etc. According to you, following logical statements are warranted:

    1) Poles are naturally biased when talking about Ukrainians.

    2) Poles can say no truthful bad things about Ukrainians. Sincere hostility does not exists in the case of Poles. It is always a product of Catholic "dark legends" or something like that.

    3) Only Ukrainians can reasonably criticize Ukrainians, certainly not Poles.

    4) Polish historians should follow the judgement of Ukrainian historians when their subject is Ukraine and Ukrainians. They must be banned from using sources which say bad things about Ukrainians even if these sources are otherwise considered credible. Deutungsmacht belongs only to Ukrainians, and certainly not Poles.

    5) Discrediting Poles who criticize Ukrainians as both stupid and racist is advisable and "wise".

    Replies: @AP

  932. @Dmitry
    @Yevardian


    olga accent had been
     
    Bashibuzuk was talking about people in Urals' accent, where typically talk a bit faster and a little less exaggerated in intonation, you can say more efficient, as sometimes swallowing consonants or resting less on some vowels. It's not necessarily always accent, but the "rhythm" of speaking can be slightly different, even when the people are speaking classically correctly.

    The popular "folk explanation" for why people are speaking faster in colder parts of Russia, in the Montesquieu way, is because it's colder - losing less heat talking when it's cold.

    But you know in the country, there are usually traces of the "top down", where the people with the "less accent", are "co-incidentally" where the power is.

    Replies: @AP

    Bashibuzuk was talking about people in Urals’ accent, where typically talk a bit faster and a little less exaggerated in intonation, you can say more efficient, as sometimes swallowing consonants or resting less on some vowels

    I noticed it too when I was there.

    The popular “folk explanation” for why people are speaking faster in colder parts of Russia, in the Montesquieu way, is because it’s colder – losing less heat talking when it’s cold.

    Lviv Ukrainian is like that too, compared to standard Ukrainian. I don’t mean the Galician dialect, but the way they speak the regular Ukrainian language, it’s more abrupt, a bit less melodic. And Lviv is somewhat milder than other parts of Ukraine.

    It (and the Urals way of speaking) isn’t harsher, just clipped.

    My German is much poorer than my Ukrainian and Russian, but it seems to me based on several visits to both countries that Austrian is also more clipped like that, compared to German from Germany. Because Germany is a harsh language, Austrian German comes out sounding softer because it is more brief. Again, not dialect, but the regular language.

  933. @HeavilyMarbledSteak
    @AP

    Um, as far as I can recall, Judaism is still with us, and has not exactly been replaced lol.

    But yes, modern Christianity has become basically like the Pharisees of old, it has become what it tried to replace, as we see in you, and therefore the true message must be restored once again.

    Happens all the time to every religion. Judaism too has become like the Near Eastern idol worship it tried to replace and needs a restoration. Happened to Judaism in the time of Jesus too.

    It's no big deal, but we have to deal with it, that's all.

    Replies: @Sher Singh, @AP

    Um, as far as I can recall, Judaism is still with us, and has not exactly been replaced lol

    It’s certainly been eclipsed and left behind. Your wish for Christianity.

    But yes, modern Christianity has become basically like the Pharisees of old

    No, it hasn’t but it makes sense that someone seeking to destroy it would say that.

    it has become what it tried to replace, as we see in you

    Yet again you place me in your fantasies, that are more about you than about me.

  934. @AP
    @Another Polish Perspective


    Kitowicz is considered a very good historical source, of almost ethnographic standards. Discrediting him as a Pole is both stupid and racist,
     
    No, it's wise in this case because Poles and Cossacks did not get along and after Khmelnytsky uprising. Haidamaks etc. they had a dirty name in Poland. He used some dark legends about Cossacks, citing works by the Ukrainian Institute of History at the Academy of Sciences, Ukrainian wiki summarizes about Kitowicz: "The epithets used in the book in relation to the Cossacks and especially the Haydamaks testify to the author's undisguised hostility towards them. "

    It's amazing that you take his writings about Cossacks seriously (unless you are trolling).

    Replies: @Another Polish Perspective

    Well, you are rather arrogant. You are aware that your statement is a warrant for following statements, statements which generally cancel any possibility of Polish-Ukrainian understanding, which again makes clear the fact that Ukrainians aren’t able to own their mistakes. This last, sleazy, snake-like element is present in the old Polish nickname for Ukrainians aka ‘jaszczurcza nacja” or lizard/reptilian nation. Well, there is this short rhyme, well known in Poland, which conveys that both Tatars and Cossacks are not to be trusted: “Złapał Kozak Tatarzyna/a Tatarzyn za łeb trzyma”, which loosely translated means “A Cossack has caught a Tatar but the Tatar holds a knife to Cossack’s head”. In another words, it means that even if they are captive, both Tatars and Cossacks will try to turn this captivity to their advantage in some ways. Which you actually demonstrated pretty well – “dark legends” without refuting them with any credible arguments about the matter itself etc. According to you, following logical statements are warranted:

    1) Poles are naturally biased when talking about Ukrainians.

    2) Poles can say no truthful bad things about Ukrainians. Sincere hostility does not exists in the case of Poles. It is always a product of Catholic “dark legends” or something like that.

    3) Only Ukrainians can reasonably criticize Ukrainians, certainly not Poles.

    4) Polish historians should follow the judgement of Ukrainian historians when their subject is Ukraine and Ukrainians. They must be banned from using sources which say bad things about Ukrainians even if these sources are otherwise considered credible. Deutungsmacht belongs only to Ukrainians, and certainly not Poles.

    5) Discrediting Poles who criticize Ukrainians as both stupid and racist is advisable and “wise”.

    • Replies: @AP
    @Another Polish Perspective


    You are aware that your statement is a warrant for following statements
     
    No they do not. I did not take you for an idiot but congratulations on revealing yourself. Unless you are trolling, of course.

    well – “dark legends” without refuting them with any credible arguments about the matter
     
    If I make up dark legends about your people having sex with beasts would you prove otherwise? Isn’t there a Polish expression about proving that one isn’t a camel?

    If Kitowicz makes wild claims he should have proven them.

    Per Ukrainian Academy of Sciences, Kitowicz was an anti-Cossack bigot who repeated tales from decades before he was born, tales told by the Cossacks’ bitter enemies. The fact that you take them seriously reveals much about you. I recall toy were arguing some nonsense about ancient Slavs with Ivashka earlier on, you have a taste for bizarre ideas.

    According to you, following logical statements are warranted:

    1) Poles are naturally biased when talking about Ukrainians.
     
    So because I repeated the conclusions by a Ukrainian historians that this man from 200 years ago was biased, in your twisted little mind this “logically” means that “Poles are naturally biased.”

    Do you think that Kitowicz can be generalized to all Poles? In your little mind, is Polish historiography equal to Kitowicz. If so, I have a much higher opinion of Poles than you do!

    2) Poles can say no truthful bad things about Ukrainians. Sincere hostility does not exists in the case of Poles
     
    So in your little mind, it is “logical” to conclude that to say that Kitowicz was biased and repeated dark fairytales about Cossacks, is to also say that Poles in general can’t be truthful about Ukrainians.

    Given your display of “logic” and “reasoning” we can conclude about you that you are a rather muddled fool who can’t judge sources, and can’t reason about what he reads nor draw logical conclusions. In your individual case, literacy may have been a mistake.

    Anything you write can be dismissed accordingly. You are an embarrassment to the great Polish people. You are worthy of being recruited by the Russian nationalists at least, some of their fanboys share your faults.

    Replies: @Another Polish Perspective, @Another Polish Perspective

  935. @S
    @songbird


    Yes, that was a very good scene. Wouldn’t say that I am an especial fanboy of Scorsese...But I really do wonder if it took a Catholic to make a movie like that.
     
    I wouldn't know. It does seem every now and again a Hollywood movie will present something close to the truth, such as that particular scene. I imagine it might be only later they realize what had occurred and do their very best to make sure it doesn't happen again. :-D

    Unfortunately, Gangs of New York was marred a bit by a very horrible song by U2, after they had really declined.
     
    Hehe. That reminds me how one time the subject of U2 came up, and an Irish acquaintance of mine immediately piped up with 'Bono make it better!' Apparently within Ireland and amongst the Irish people there is something that might be called 'Bono fatigue' which has set in.

    As an aside, I thought that scene's music (ie 'Paddy's Lament') had been made up just for the movie, but apparently it was a real US Civil War era Irish ballad. Interesting lyrics in regards to 'Lincoln's War.'

    Sinead O'Connor performs the song when she still had a bit of hair.


    https://youtu.be/FKUNfmb2Ir8

    Replies: @S, @songbird

    Here’s a much lesser known song about the social damage caused by emigration:

    [MORE]

    Not intended as a war song (or so I suspect), but I always thought it would be a good song to have as a background for young men going to war and getting killed in a meat-grinder.

    One about migrant laborers in England:

    Ronnie Drew was actually my favorite singer of all the Dubliners.

    • Replies: @S
    @songbird


    Here’s a much lesser known song about the social damage caused by emigration:
     
    Thanks for the tunes.

    Yes, as they so well describe, wage slavery, ie the greatly immoral so called 'cheap labor'/'mass immigration' system, which is nothing less than the early 19th century monetization of chattel slavery and it's trade, and which is the economic and political basis of the modern progressive Multi-Cultural state, is incredibly socially destructive, and genocidal in the truest sense of that often much abused term, both for those people(s) whom by diktat are on the receiving end of the wage slaves (known by the euphemism as 'immigrants' and, or, 'cheap labor') and for those people(s) being preyed upon enmasse as a source of the wage slaves.



    The Irish well understood this fact, as documented by the 1847 London newspaper article excerpted and linked below entitled 'Extermination and Vengeance'.

    'Extermination,' referring to the truly genocidal nature of this system, and 'vengeance' referring to how members of the British aristocracy in Ireland whom were promoting this utter poison at the time as a very good thing for Ireland and the Irish people, were being shot for doing so.

    In my post archives can be found a very 'progressive'/proto Multi-cultural London Times editorial from that same era (circa 1851) in regards to the then US ambassador to the UK, the Northern industrialists and founder of Lawrence 'Immigrant City', Massachusetts, Abbott Lawrence, and his then ongoing personal tour of Ireland.

    The editorial, entirely concurring with the Irish accessment of 'extermination', declares that as a direct result of the then ongoing enmasse predation of the Irish people as wage slaves (ie as so called 'immigrants') by the United States, that people such as the American Abbott Lawrence represented, that the Irish would be 'known no more' as a people. Where the Irish people had once been in Ireland, a new people, the result of immigrants brought into Ireland by diktat who have mixed with the local Celtic Irish, which is to be 'more mixed', 'more docile', and 'which can submit to a master', will take the present Irish people's place.

    Within the context of the Times editorial, it is plain that the new race which it declares is to take the Irish people's place, which it describes as being a race of slaves, is referring to the people of Northern Ireland, the descendants of the 'Plantation'.

    This well demonstrates what is in reality the utter contempt that is held toward 'the immigrants' and the resulting 'mixed' populations, and how they are seen as slaves by the powers that be, and slaves they are within the so called 'progressive' Multi-Cultural system.

    Extermination and Vengeance

    'The Irish papers, alluding to his estate of Leganommer, had a terrific story of "extermination in Leitrim," full of direct falsehoods.'

    'Setting aside smaller matters, it appears that the tenants on the estate owed rent for several years, in some instances for as many as twelve or fourteen; one year's rent was demanded, under pain of a twelve month's notice to quit; not a shilling of rent was offered, and the notice was enforced, but the enforcement was accompanied with a declaration that those who could not retain their holdings would be aided by their landlord to emigrate to America. Such is the conduct which the Irish incendiaries name "extermination." It is well, in the approaching debates, that the Irish meaning of that word should be understood.' The Spectator (Nov 20, 1847)
     
    http://archive.spectator.co.uk/article/20th-november-1847/12/extermination-and-vengeance
  936. @Another Polish Perspective
    @LatW


    Gay & trans overreach, of course, is not good, but what matters in the long run is how healthy and vital the heteros are, that’s what matters above all.
     
    Gays & Heteros are interconnected since gays are produced by hetero women. I mean I am completely on board of genetic grounds for homosexuality so any "moral" healthiness is irrelevant here.

    Well, I’m not sure Poles would have a fully objective view of Ukrainians.
     
    Kitowicz is considered a very good historical source, of almost ethnographic standards. Discrediting him as a Pole is both stupid and racist, especially as he didn't focus on Cossacks in any way; they are one of his many subjects. Of note is also that no one rose to contradict him, "No, Cossacks are not like that, they are sworn heterosexuals who collect spoils to provide for their large families".

    It is known that in male only organizations, all kinds of things happen. Some of it has to do with establishing hierarchy which is very important to these groups.
     
    This is both stupid and ridiculous. You are actually saying that homosexuality is latent to all males, and rape is primary way of establishing hierarchy! Is that female obsession with rape or what..? You look to be sex-crazy, LatW! It seems that you have internalized the Western view that sex, and that means ANY sex, is a primary human need which must and will be realized whatever the cost.

    It sounds like it had some signs of a military order. You know that the Teutonic Knights were also supposed to be completely chaste and abstinent.
     
    Cossacks were no military order, with some exception to register Cossacks (Kozacy rejestrowi) but there were only 6000 of that kind prior to Chmielnicki uprising. That means that in general their organization was voluntary. Yet unlike Polish voluntary military like husaria, they don't seem to have steady relationships or families or homes to which they would return every year - which is strange. They don't identify themselves as "son of..." etc. Frankly, they seem to have been much more organized around Spartan-like syssitia system and - like Spartans - only sporadically met with women, if at all. Or, in German terminology, they were typical Maennerbund. Such organizations had strong traces of homosexuality, and in fact Kitowicz description relates typically homosexual way of thinking in their case, which is apparently rampant at Vatican too, at least according to "Sodoma" of Frederic Martel: like Vatican clergy, Cossacks defined the lack of chastity as engaging in sex with women, not with men. According to Kitowicz, Cossacks guilty of that sin were canned to death by their fellows with fresh twigs/canes, a communal canning being a strange custom observed in the past among some Great Goddess followers, with a great description of sexual arousal which accompanies it present in Jose Saramago novel "Balthasar and Blimunda".

    Replies: @AP, @LatW

    Gays & Heteros are interconnected since gays are produced by hetero women. I mean I am completely on board of genetic grounds for homosexuality so any “moral” healthiness is irrelevant here.

    It is quite obvious that they are born that way, that wasn’t my point (if not genetic, then because of something that happens in the womb, it could be a vanishing twin – or some kind of a chimera, certainly they have a duality, the Native Americans called them “two souled”).

    But I meant politically, not biologically. If heteros weren’t out of control, then gays wouldn’t be so emboldened politically and would stay on the margins. It’s the air of permissiveness and of hyper individualistic immediate gratification that allows this.

    My original point was that what good is it that Russia is less “gay friendly” than Ukraine (even if it were so), when they have major hetero problems.

    This is both stupid and ridiculous. You are actually saying that homosexuality is latent to all males, and rape is primary way of establishing hierarchy!

    Chillax. That’s not what I said. I said this happens in some orgs, such as Russian prisons, for example. Maybe in Dedovshchina. Of course, by far, not in all male only organizations. And I said it half-jokingly, I was just trying to defend the Cossacks. There was some folk tale apparently that they were so unused to seeing women that they mistook a heron for a girl. But it might have been a hallucination.

    It is quite common knowledge in Ukraine, afaik, that both heterosexual and homosexual relations were punished at Sich, however, I haven’t really researched this exciting topic, so don’t know a 100%.

  937. • Replies: @Another Polish Perspective
    @Yahya

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hej_Soko%C5%82y

    The song's authorship is not completely certain,[1] some historians attribute the writing of the song to the Ukrainian-Polish poet-songwriter Tomasz Padura (1801–1871)[1][2] (however, according to the latest Ukrainian research, there are no lyrics of the song in any of Padura's song collections[3]), and others believe it was written by the Polish classical composer Maciej Kamieński (1734–1825).

    It looks like this song was actually composed by a Pole and written by a Pole, and it reflects pre-Bandera, pre-nationalism time when Ukraine was romanticized to some extent - the example of it was the triple coat of arms (Poland/Lithuania/Rus) during the January Uprising of 1863. Many Poles were former Ukrainians, even Cossacks, as some of them were ennobled in Poland. Also at that time Poles could romanticize Ukraine as they were still the victors, at least over Ukrainians, since all Cossacks uprisings - and there were around 10 of them, not just Chmielnicki's - were defeated by Poles. That changed after senseless Bandera killing of Poles during WWII. Bandera & UPA actions during WWII finally shattered that previous romanticization of Ukraine; yet after WWI Poles and Ukrainians fought for Lviv, but Poles won again, and anyway part of Ukrainians (under Petlura) allied with Poland.

    Anyway, even from Kitowicz one can deduce that there was surely part of Cossacks who were heterosexuals, as they were those punished by the gay types when they came back to their "kurzeń".
    What is unclear and at stake here is which culture actually - hetero or homo - was more prevalent among Cossacks. Maybe it was dependent on their unit, and in case of non-register Cossacks (not enlisted into a standing Polish army) these units were mostly territorial (eg. "kurzeń czechryński"), which again could explain this difference by genetical divergences in respective territories of Ukraine.

    Replies: @AP, @Mr. Hack

  938. @songbird
    @LatW


    America cannot fully control even Poland
     
    I'm not convinced of this.

    I see absolutely no real sign of Poland bucking Western hegemony. Borders are effectively open. Very Boomercon. No advocacy for Western Europeans. At best, it is like the American red state (I mean as in Moldbug's two states: essentially controlled op that channels nationalism into usable and safe ends) - where it aligns with the American MIC and interventionism, while not being super-woke, but showing no real opposition to it.

    Am sure you know the politics better than I. I know that the nationalist party is supposedly popular among youth or something. But with over a hundred thousand non-Euro migrants a year, how long can that last? (And I think there's been buzz about Austria's party which never really materialized, they punished their youth wing IIRC)

    How can there be hope with open borders? Yes, I know they are shooting water cannons at the Belarus border, or something. But illegal/legal doesn't make much difference, if they can't even articulate the idea that it is not good to replace the population.

    Poland was seriously the only country I had hope for. If there were a state of about 40 million Europeans, then I think it would be more functional and powerful than Germany in 2050. With native Germans as a willing fifth column, it could gain territory and maybe, become a state of 60-80 million. Still small compared to others, but perhaps enough to be a base for a slow reconquest.

    I've never had that hope for Ukraine. It's elites appear to be very Jewish and aligned with US/Israel.

    those are all core indigenous Ukrainian lands.
     
    I was speaking of territory outside of Ukraine's borders, extending a long line into the Far East. I don't think they were necessarily the majority there, but a bigger group than Russians, or so it seemed from my quick glance. Imagine it was mostly from before USSR.

    Replies: @LatW

    Poland was seriously the only country I had hope for. If there were a state of about 40 million Europeans, then I think it would be more functional and powerful than Germany in 2050. With native Germans as a willing fifth column, it could gain territory and maybe, become a state of 60-80 million. Still small compared to others, but perhaps enough to be a base for a slow reconquest.

    If you’re talking about reconquista, then that’s a different topic. What I was talking about was the influence of the US State Department and other Western institutions on the internal decision making process within the country. For a reconquista, one would need more than one country. It would still be difficult, because most people even in EE are not WNs, not because America told them so, but because they cannot be bothered, they care about other things more. But I think the Polish immigration law is still more conservative and tight than German or French.

    No advocacy for Western Europeans.

    Well, how do you see such advocacy from the side of CEEs, in practical terms?

    I was speaking of territory outside of Ukraine’s borders, extending a long line into the Far East.

    Yes, outside of current Ukraine’s borders, in Krasnodar and Stavropol krai. Although they settled there quite late.

    • Replies: @songbird
    @LatW


    What I was talking about was the influence of the US State Department and other Western institutions on the internal decision making process within the country.
     
    Honestly, I often suspect that many WEs are too quick to lay all the blame on the US. To a certain extent, I think it is just the same process repeating across the Atlantic that happened here. (And I think one could unfortunately say this for much of EE). But, maybe, it is useful for nationalists to be anti-American. Though I am not entirely sure, if it avoids root mechanisms, but then again Hollywood has become one of these.

    Well, how do you see such advocacy from the side of CEEs, in practical terms?
     
    Most of all, I'd like EEs to get their house in order, in terms of immigration and TFR. If they did, I expect that there will eventually be some amount of capital flight there. I like how Orban (whatever his flaws) seems to have an assertive vision. I'd like to see more of that. I think an EE with their house in order would give blackpilled Western Europeans hope.

    Beyond that, I think it would be mostly gestures. Committees, rhetoric, propaganda, state press. Try to embarrass the Western regime, by pointing to its contradictions and the way it persecutes nationalists.

    I'd like to see some effort of coordination intended to compete with multicult Hollywood. I think it is really harmful for European nationalists to have Hollywood's degenerate and multicult-by-default effluent dominate the culture. I believe that there is a commercial model that could be exploited. That there is a market for non-multicult stuff even among non-Euros who want to see the genuine product. Maybe, they could even try a quota system, to limit the negative influence of Hollywood.

    I probably don't have the best strategy, but I'd like to see a regular effort put into it. Maybe, they could use analytics to try for find out what works best, and a kind of skunk works for trying new things.

    Replies: @LatW

  939. @songbird
    @Yahya


    >That is what Jordan Peterson advocates. BTW, do you know that he recently came out for regime change in Iran?

    Is the second sentence supposed to follow from the first?
     
    Some people say he has always been a tool of the establishment. Promoting individualism among Euros, while also promoting Zionism. That's why he was promoted and achieved his fame and fortune. Right now, he is working for Ben Shapiro.

    https://twitter.com/RyLiberty/status/1618204909329080325?s=20&t=9o64v4_O0hM8J1v1yltw9g
    https://youtu.be/TeAWbUl22FU

    But I support regime change in Iran too
     
    He appears to be supporting America-led regime change. Seems fairly likely that he is influenced by Zionism.

    https://twitter.com/PrisonPlanet/status/1620850938532761601?s=20&t=9o64v4_O0hM8J1v1yltw9g

    Irish-Americans like Ted Kennedy played a major role in passing the Immigration and Nationality Act of 1965; which I presume you think is one of the defining pieces of legislation to have ruined in America. So you have to own up to it
     
    . A lot wrong with this argument. I'll just mention a few things.

    Civil War was fought without any significant Irish political influence. Lincoln did away with all sorts of rights, and imposed an income tax, all without Irish involvement (if anything Irish immigrants were against it), unless you count the importation of unwilling meat bags for the army.

    Australia had no Puritans. Irish were completely foundational, without any caveats. They had a whites only policy, until they started to follow America's lead.

    Have you seen who voted (in Congress) for the Civil Rights Act? Hint: more Republicans than Dems (though most the Dems were objecting for bad reasons) Anyway, takeaway is Congress was completely cucked. Both sides of it.

    Elections matter very little. Who believes that the American public ever voted to open the borders to the Third World? No country did, but here we are. What matters only is elite opinion.

    Final thing I'd mention is that a lot of people pointing to the Irish have various shortcomings, and have had them historically. Disraeli did it (NOT English). Academic Agent does it now (NOT English). Scott Greer does it (doesn't want to talk about who really holds power because he understands the consequences.)

    But sorry; the idea just doesn’t hold water for African-Americans.
     
    I was trying to prompt you to refine your argument. But you still seem stuck on the construction "because they are citizens." IMO, a rather inelegant justification because we can virtually extend it to any geography based on the one-time loophole of anyone being granted citizenship, through any corrupt, but legal or else elite-approved process.

    I suspect that you really want to say "because they were slaves," which would have the merit of being geographically-limiting. Or, maybe, that you are grandfathered in after a similar period of time, or number of generations, whatever your origin or effect on society. (Woe to Europe!) But I don't want try to argue your case for you.

    Again, just very hypocritical to call them invaders and intruders.
     
    They don't support freedom of association. That's a foundational value, and means that they have invaded and intruded into countless places and organizations.

    Anyway, to be a hypocrite, I'd have to be inconsistent in my own views, but I am not. My views are that blacks don't have the same civilizational capacity (broadly speaking - theoretically, they could be segregated into more functional fractions) And that it's been a disaster for Euros to pretend that they do, and far from all the damage already being done and the dust-settled, or us being able to rebuild, it is a growing disaster, with potentially no upper limit.

    I'm not a loon for thinking so either. Seventy years after the Irish arrived in masse, Boston was still a fairly normal place. But what is it like seventy years after blacks started arriving in masse?

    https://twitter.com/GraceSm73368432/status/1620359457585926144?s=20&t=9o64v4_O0hM8J1v1yltw9g

    How many is “a lot”?
     
    South practically wasn't planting cotton until about 1794. Have you heard of Jim Bowie? Pretty famous here, there's a knife named after him, and he died at the Alamo. Most don't know he was a slave smuggler, started in about 1818. Who knows exactly how many? But I'd be very surprised if it wasn't a large number because the financial inducements were there. Bowie didn't do it based on principles, but for money. (just think of illegal immigration today)

    Do you really think; if we trace back the ancestry of African and Irish Americans; that your people would on average be of older stock than blacks?
     
    Chronological arrival argument is a faulty one, IMO.

    Are blacks supposed to be "foundational?" They couldn't vote. Abolitionism was partly a movement to prevent the Midwest from becoming populated with blacks. Abe Lincoln said they'd have to be resettled, if they were freed because it would destroy society, since they lacked the same capacities. At first, he wanted to settle them in Central America (not USA), but Central Americans were incensed and opposed the plan.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linconia

    Replies: @S, @Coconuts, @S, @Yahya

    . A lot wrong with this argument. I’ll just mention a few things.

    You haven’t refuted anything I’ve said; just shifted to another topic like the civil war.

    Do you or do you not believe the 1965 Immigration Act was disastrous for America? And are you going to own up to Kennedy’s instrumental role in passing it through?

    The civil rights act was voted on a primarily North-South cline. Northerners; whether Democrat or Republican; voted for it. Southerners voted against it. Irish-Americans tend to be concentrated in the Northeast; where liberalism of the Democrat and Republican variety reigns supreme. The Irish are key constituents; and several of their prominent representatives like the Kennedy’s and the current US president are bastions of liberalism. The Irish are probably the most liberal white ethnicity in America; not far behind Jews.

    Elections matter very little. Who believes that the American public ever voted to open the borders to the Third World? No country did, but here we are. What matters only is elite opinion.

    Well I agree that most Americans didn’t consciously vote for open borders. But you’re mistaken if you absolve the public of all responsibility and put it all at the feet of the elites. A significant portion of “good white” liberals actually do support increased immigration; and the rest of white American is either apathetic or too cowardly to oppose it in any meaningful manner. You have to remember that 40% of whites still vote Democrat in elections – that’s not a majority but fairly close to it.

    In Germany people are even more feckless and apathetic; supporting Merkel in large numbers even after she opened the borders in the most reckless way imaginable. Still, after being fed-up with the CDU, what does the German voting public do? Turn to the AfD? Nope. They comically give more votes to the nutty Greens than the AfD. These are all free and fair elections in which the majority of the electorate are still native Germans.

    • Replies: @songbird
    @Yahya


    You haven’t refuted anything I’ve said
     
    What specifically? That ethnically Irish voters elected corrupt pols who were responsible for the 1965 immigration act, and it wouldn't have happened without them? That it was the Irish voting for Democrats that tipped the balance?

    Have you looked at the actual vote?:

    In the Senate, 52 Democrats voted yes, 14 no, and 1 abstained. Among Senate Republicans, 24 voted yes, 3 voted no, and 1 abstained.[29] In the House, 202 Democrats voted yes, 60 voted no, and 12 abstained, 118 Republicans voted yes, 10 voted no, and 11 abstained.[30] In total, 74% of Democrats and 85% of Republicans voted for passage of this bill.
     
    Your theory seems invalidated by the fact it was a landslide bipartisan vote, with a higher percentage of Republicans voting yea. If you want more proof, search for a primary European heritage map of US states. (The actual areas where Irish is the primary heritage are small). And Irish certainly don't dominate political donations, or have the motive for opening borders to the Global South.

    just shifted to another topic like the civil war.
     
    Pretty big deal over here. Just a few years ago they went Cultural Revolution on Southern history, and they are still putting up statues of BIPOCs in place of Southern war heroes.

    and the current US president
     
    I've looked into this. Top estimate given is 5/8. But a lot of the surnames quoted (Arthurs, Stanton, Blewitt) don't seem to have a native Irish origin. I doubt that he is even half Irish. He's pretty corrupt now, and was never an honest guy. But I will at least give him points for at one time having been against school busing. A lot of corrupt pols were - maybe, they had to be.
    ____

    You still haven't answered my request for Yahya's global rule on who has the right to stay and who can be deported with moral righteousness. I think you are avoiding stating a plain opinion

    I think natural ethnostates seem like too small of a carve out, and also it seems pretty obvious that they are open to deconstruction. Subversives can cite any small group of immigrants historically (was done with England), and that is the foot in the door. If it can be done to Japan, at least in theory, (and it can), then what country is safe?

    I also want to say that I think a limitation to natural ethno-states doesn't make sense. If we imagine that Austria-Hungary still existed, it would be a pretty diverse place in one way, but that wouldn't be a justification for keeping Somalis there for ten thousand years, if they had found a loophole in, or otherwise been granted citizenship by a corrupt regime.
  940. @songbird
    @S


    >But I really do wonder if it took a Catholic to make a movie like that.

    I wouldn’t know.
     

    I sometimes get the feeling that there was something different from normal Hollywood in people like John Ford and Frank Capra and Hal Roach (once a collaborator with Harold LLoyd) (not sure Roach was Catholic - but sounds like his father was native Irish). Some say that Scorsese is very influenced by his faith. Not sure how true it is, and I think Ford was certainly a sinner. I don't want to put too fine an ideological stamp on it (maybe I could add a few others, like Danny Thomas and Ricardo Montalban, while too many more would go against the idea) but what I really mean is that having that identity just seems to have once led to something a bit different from standard Hollywood. Perhaps, the same was true of Protestants. Believe Disney was the only major studio not owned by Jews, at least at one time - and Walt (whatever his detractors say) seemed to really have a thing for European folktales and aesthetics.

    Some people really revile Darby O'Gill but I admit I quite liked it. At one point, they warn the girl that she is getting old and needs to settle down. I really liked that scene with the leprechaun where he saved the old man from dying because he wanted to laugh at him struggling in the mud.


    Taking both reality and history into account, it is criminal and without excuse putting Blacks and Whites together.
     
    Simon Webb recently mentioned an interesting Moroccan saying that was about 800 years old and apparently still used: "When white women fight, they pull hair. When black women fight, they spill blood."

    Greatly disagree with this idea that some have that blacks are somehow foundational to American society. The truth is that they have been located within the same broad geography (and the US, even at its beginning, was a massive country geographically), though, traditionally in concentrated, constrained areas, with all sorts of checks and limits on their behavior.

    Even when they were the most constrained, under slavery, they were still inspiring radical, revolutionary whites like John Brown (who was financially-backed by Northern elites). And the violation of all sorts of civil liberties, under Lincoln, not to mention the war itself which was massively violent and resulted in a not insubstantial percentage of the male population dying. The Civil War was the first time a federal income tax was collected - it fed the appetite of the beast.

    Since then, it has been the case of one boundary after another being eroded, seemingly with no geographic limit. Usually by people who have no skin in the game and despise the people who actually live near blacks. Just an endlessly repeating and advancing process. Once it happened in Boston. Now it is happening in Dublin.


    As an aside, I thought that scene’s music (ie ‘Paddy’s Lament’) had been made up just for the movie, but apparently it was a real US Civil War era Irish ballad.
     
    Ireland (I suppose like most countries) once had a really incredible musical tradition. That was when the only music was live music, and the country was absolutely full of pubs. I suppose that there was a cost to it, having so many men be musicians as well as drinkers - it wasn't efficient. And the same was true of story-tellers and poets. But I think it did result in a stronger sense of identity and culture.

    I've sometimes wondered what percentage of people sang or played an instrument back then, compared to now. Must be a really big difference. (I think it was basically everyone who sang, and if you didn't, then they demanded you did.)

    Replies: @S

    One could say, that since the time of the founding of the United States, that there were two countries at war with each other. The one, a traditional ethnic (ie racially based) country, which people since the founding of the United States had been led to believe they had, particularly in times of war, and another United States, which was promoted by powerful elements amongst the elites and their hangers on, which was to be the spearhead of a future global super state and empire, the United States of the World.

    [MORE]

    I, probably along with most, think the traditional ethnic state was better, but due to the very nature of the United States, with it’s secret societies, which many probably didn’t understand what they were up to (though they ought to have), the odds have always probably been against the traditional ethnic state succeeding.

    Some people really revile Darby O’Gill but I admit I quite liked it.

    I was going to watch this on YouTube but found out, even over sixty years old as it is, it still has to be bought or rented. Some of the clips though show it had good special effects. I was surprised to see Sean Connery in it. It looks to have been an okay movie.

    • Replies: @songbird
    @S


    I was going to watch this on YouTube but found out, even over sixty years old as it is, it still has to be bought or rented.
     
    I think it is pretty crazy how they haven't released Song of the South into the public domain, even though they seem to have completely renounced it. Not one of my favorites. Though interesting to see in a historical/sociological sense. Consider it pretty woke for the time. (blacks are depicted quite favorably, the only real negative characters are two poor white boy Southerners.) Guess they probably wouldn't sue you, if you torrented it.

    Suppose Disney is pretty tight-fisted with their old IPs. Maybe, part of it is that they are not so confident about their new stuff. I think they are coasting on nostalgia and their large footprint, which makes them a quasi-monopoly. (crazy how they extended copyright law.)
  941. @Yahya
    https://youtu.be/ZzZ1qmXZBuY

    Replies: @Another Polish Perspective

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hej_Soko%C5%82y

    The song’s authorship is not completely certain,[1] some historians attribute the writing of the song to the Ukrainian-Polish poet-songwriter Tomasz Padura (1801–1871)[1][2] (however, according to the latest Ukrainian research, there are no lyrics of the song in any of Padura’s song collections[3]), and others believe it was written by the Polish classical composer Maciej Kamieński (1734–1825).

    It looks like this song was actually composed by a Pole and written by a Pole, and it reflects pre-Bandera, pre-nationalism time when Ukraine was romanticized to some extent – the example of it was the triple coat of arms (Poland/Lithuania/Rus) during the January Uprising of 1863. Many Poles were former Ukrainians, even Cossacks, as some of them were ennobled in Poland. Also at that time Poles could romanticize Ukraine as they were still the victors, at least over Ukrainians, since all Cossacks uprisings – and there were around 10 of them, not just Chmielnicki’s – were defeated by Poles. That changed after senseless Bandera killing of Poles during WWII. Bandera & UPA actions during WWII finally shattered that previous romanticization of Ukraine; yet after WWI Poles and Ukrainians fought for Lviv, but Poles won again, and anyway part of Ukrainians (under Petlura) allied with Poland.

    Anyway, even from Kitowicz one can deduce that there was surely part of Cossacks who were heterosexuals, as they were those punished by the gay types when they came back to their “kurzeń”.
    What is unclear and at stake here is which culture actually – hetero or homo – was more prevalent among Cossacks. Maybe it was dependent on their unit, and in case of non-register Cossacks (not enlisted into a standing Polish army) these units were mostly territorial (eg. “kurzeń czechryński”), which again could explain this difference by genetical divergences in respective territories of Ukraine.

    • Replies: @AP
    @Another Polish Perspective


    Poles could romanticize Ukraine as they were still the victors, at least over Ukrainians, since all Cossacks uprisings – and there were around 10 of them, not just Chmielnicki’s – were defeated by Poles
     
    Correction: the rebels and traitors were defeated by the forces of Rzeczpospolita which included Ukrainians. Don’t pretend that the PLC was some sort of Polish nationalist state.

    For example in the Kosinski uprising, Ruthenian (proto-Ukrainian) magnates and nobles crushed an uprising by Cossacks led by an ethnic Polish nobleman, Kosinski, whose estate was seized by a Ruthenian magnate.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosi%C5%84ski_uprising
    , @Mr. Hack
    @Another Polish Perspective

    Since you seem to be such an expert on homosexuality within cossack formations, are you also as well versed about the same lifestyle practiced within the Polish hussars? The "gay gene" amongst Poles seems to have survived intact amongst modern day Poles today. Why all of the worry today though from you? Surely you must live in one of those LGBTQ free zones that are prevalent within Poland today?

    https://i.redd.it/6jed34d4e0311.jpg

    Replies: @Another Polish Perspective

  942. @Another Polish Perspective
    @LatW

    The photo airs some authenticity - it really looks like the old pre-digital photo, and when things are out of focus, they are out of focus together (like the leg and and the cigarette). It doesn't look doctored.

    Not sure why Zelenski shouldn't be gay - in the West, it could increase his popularity. As for Ukraine, well, I heard that it is more gay-tolerant than Russia anyway.

    In the old Poland homosexuality seems to have been pretty popular among Cossacks, at least when juxtaposed to Poles. Some even saw in their military organisation homosexuals traces, of Theban sacred legion composed of group of lovers, for this reason Cossacks calling themselves "mołojec" aka "a young dashing man" . I must say I wondered myself once why they spend so little time with women, despite the fact that war wasn't always rampant in Ukraine.

    Jędrzej Kitowicz, writing in the 18th century ("Opis obyczajów za panowania Augusta III"), acusses Cossacks of rampant homosexualism and zoofilia.

    ''Żon nie mieli ani kobiety żadnej między sobą nie cierpieli; a kiedy który został przekonany, że kędy za granicą miał sprawę z kobietą, tedy takowego do pala w kureniu, z którego był, za dekretem przywiązanego, póty tłukli polanami, to jest szczypami drew, póki go nie zabili, pokazując na pozór, jakoby czcili stan czystości; dla czego też nazywali się powszechnie mołojcami, to jest młodzieńcami, gdy w samej rzeczy prowadzili życie bestialskie, mażąc się jedni z drugimi grzechem sodomskim albo łącząc z bydlętami, na które sprośności, samej naturze obmierzłe, nie było żadnej kary, jakby uczynek z kobietą był plugawszy niż z kobyłą albo z krową.''


    It is the old Polish, so I can't translate this well but you do recognize words like "kureń","mołojec", "grzech sodomski - sin of Sodom", "bydlęta" - beasts, kobyła- mare, krowa - cow, "łącząc z bydlętami" - uniting with beasts.

    Zelenski should simply deny rumours, not just about this photo. But, well, he doesn't deny. Apparently, he does not want to.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @LatW, @Another Polish Perspective

    Here is Kitowicz’s passage mostly Google-translated but redacted by me. The true translation should of course be into the 18th century English (that feat Google of course did not manage):

    “They had no wives, and they suffered no woman among themselves; and when someone was convinced that one of them had to do with a woman where else, then that man was tied to the stake in the kurzeń he was from, and by decree, he was flogged with chunks and splinters of wood, until they killed him, ostensibly showing that they worshiped the state of chastity; for this reason they were commonly called mołojcy, that is, young men, whereas, as the matter of fact they led a beastly life, smearing one another with the sin of Sodom, or uniting with beasts, for which obscenity, disgusting by nature, there was no punishment, as if the deed with a woman was filthier than with a mare or a cow.”

  943. @Another Polish Perspective
    @AP

    Well, you are rather arrogant. You are aware that your statement is a warrant for following statements, statements which generally cancel any possibility of Polish-Ukrainian understanding, which again makes clear the fact that Ukrainians aren't able to own their mistakes. This last, sleazy, snake-like element is present in the old Polish nickname for Ukrainians aka 'jaszczurcza nacja" or lizard/reptilian nation. Well, there is this short rhyme, well known in Poland, which conveys that both Tatars and Cossacks are not to be trusted: "Złapał Kozak Tatarzyna/a Tatarzyn za łeb trzyma", which loosely translated means "A Cossack has caught a Tatar but the Tatar holds a knife to Cossack's head". In another words, it means that even if they are captive, both Tatars and Cossacks will try to turn this captivity to their advantage in some ways. Which you actually demonstrated pretty well - "dark legends" without refuting them with any credible arguments about the matter itself etc. According to you, following logical statements are warranted:

    1) Poles are naturally biased when talking about Ukrainians.

    2) Poles can say no truthful bad things about Ukrainians. Sincere hostility does not exists in the case of Poles. It is always a product of Catholic "dark legends" or something like that.

    3) Only Ukrainians can reasonably criticize Ukrainians, certainly not Poles.

    4) Polish historians should follow the judgement of Ukrainian historians when their subject is Ukraine and Ukrainians. They must be banned from using sources which say bad things about Ukrainians even if these sources are otherwise considered credible. Deutungsmacht belongs only to Ukrainians, and certainly not Poles.

    5) Discrediting Poles who criticize Ukrainians as both stupid and racist is advisable and "wise".

    Replies: @AP

    You are aware that your statement is a warrant for following statements

    No they do not. I did not take you for an idiot but congratulations on revealing yourself. Unless you are trolling, of course.

    well – “dark legends” without refuting them with any credible arguments about the matter

    If I make up dark legends about your people having sex with beasts would you prove otherwise? Isn’t there a Polish expression about proving that one isn’t a camel?

    If Kitowicz makes wild claims he should have proven them.

    Per Ukrainian Academy of Sciences, Kitowicz was an anti-Cossack bigot who repeated tales from decades before he was born, tales told by the Cossacks’ bitter enemies. The fact that you take them seriously reveals much about you. I recall toy were arguing some nonsense about ancient Slavs with Ivashka earlier on, you have a taste for bizarre ideas.

    According to you, following logical statements are warranted:

    1) Poles are naturally biased when talking about Ukrainians.

    So because I repeated the conclusions by a Ukrainian historians that this man from 200 years ago was biased, in your twisted little mind this “logically” means that “Poles are naturally biased.”

    Do you think that Kitowicz can be generalized to all Poles? In your little mind, is Polish historiography equal to Kitowicz. If so, I have a much higher opinion of Poles than you do!

    2) Poles can say no truthful bad things about Ukrainians. Sincere hostility does not exists in the case of Poles

    So in your little mind, it is “logical” to conclude that to say that Kitowicz was biased and repeated dark fairytales about Cossacks, is to also say that Poles in general can’t be truthful about Ukrainians.

    Given your display of “logic” and “reasoning” we can conclude about you that you are a rather muddled fool who can’t judge sources, and can’t reason about what he reads nor draw logical conclusions. In your individual case, literacy may have been a mistake.

    Anything you write can be dismissed accordingly. You are an embarrassment to the great Polish people. You are worthy of being recruited by the Russian nationalists at least, some of their fanboys share your faults.

    • Replies: @Another Polish Perspective
    @AP

    If you will go on like this, this is my last answer to you. I answer now mainly for the benefit of other participants of the forum, since you surely will not be convinced, as it was clear from other discussions with you.

    I am a professionally trained historian. If I do not research the field, I rely on the opinion of other trained historians. I know what is external critique of source, internal critique of source etc. If you would know something about history, you would notice traces of such critique in my arguments. For example, I engaged in internal critique of source, by detecting a real argumentation of gay culture concerning chastity & sin through comparison with interviews-based "Sodom" of Frederic Martel. By that, I established that what Kitowicz says may not be a fable, since at least that part seems to be true. Others, like "Cossacks have no wives" could be confirmed by simple observation at that time. Once again, if Kitowicz book, titled "Description of customs...", NOT " A fable..." was popular among his contemporaries, it means he most likely did not lie. BTW, at the roots of history are tales like that of Kitowicz - not histories written by academics. Moreover, sometimes legends turn out true - so it was with "Templars worship Baphomet" dark legend. It turned out to be true several years ago when authentic documents of Templar confessions during their trial were found. But you will surely claim that these confessions are invalid since they were made "under duress".

    Unlike you, I do not make claims without supporting them with arguments. Instead arguments, you have just labels. Since you do not use arguments - and even your argument from "the Ukrainian Academy of Sciences" is just a label here - you base your argumentation on generalizations... it is those generalizations [which I only made explicit] which are warrants four your conclusion, whether you like it or not.

    Here an example from Polish state radio of 2022 which apparently spreads a still received opinion that Kitowicz is indeed considered "a meticulous observateur and a precursor of ethnography". The article says that Kitowicz "Description of customs under the reign of August III" is a great historical source until today - unlike his "Memories", which again rises the credibility of Kitowicz who was thus aware of differences between his personal musings and descriptions of facts.

    https://www.polskieradio.pl/39/156/Artykul/2930092,Jedrzej-Kitowicz-uwazny-obserwator-obyczajow-i-prekursor-etnografii

    As the quarrel started with Zelenski's gay photo, one must notice the similarity of these rumours with those concerning Macron, who has neither denied nor confirmed them. It seems that such rumours are a kind of green beard, signalling homosexuality to those who want to believe them - which are other gays.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green-beard_effect

    Replies: @AP

    , @Another Polish Perspective
    @AP

    By the way, yesterday you identified as "Wend", today you are an Ukrainian. Unless you equate Varangians with Wends, the only way in which you can be both Wend & Ukrainian is to ascribe to that old legend I spoke about previously, that Wends once lived in central and north Poland. Then, with their harps and lyres, Wends could have emigrated to the bordering land of Ukraine later - that would preserve the later legacy of genetic & cultural differences between Poles and Ukrainians.

    Replies: @AP

  944. @Another Polish Perspective
    @Yahya

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hej_Soko%C5%82y

    The song's authorship is not completely certain,[1] some historians attribute the writing of the song to the Ukrainian-Polish poet-songwriter Tomasz Padura (1801–1871)[1][2] (however, according to the latest Ukrainian research, there are no lyrics of the song in any of Padura's song collections[3]), and others believe it was written by the Polish classical composer Maciej Kamieński (1734–1825).

    It looks like this song was actually composed by a Pole and written by a Pole, and it reflects pre-Bandera, pre-nationalism time when Ukraine was romanticized to some extent - the example of it was the triple coat of arms (Poland/Lithuania/Rus) during the January Uprising of 1863. Many Poles were former Ukrainians, even Cossacks, as some of them were ennobled in Poland. Also at that time Poles could romanticize Ukraine as they were still the victors, at least over Ukrainians, since all Cossacks uprisings - and there were around 10 of them, not just Chmielnicki's - were defeated by Poles. That changed after senseless Bandera killing of Poles during WWII. Bandera & UPA actions during WWII finally shattered that previous romanticization of Ukraine; yet after WWI Poles and Ukrainians fought for Lviv, but Poles won again, and anyway part of Ukrainians (under Petlura) allied with Poland.

    Anyway, even from Kitowicz one can deduce that there was surely part of Cossacks who were heterosexuals, as they were those punished by the gay types when they came back to their "kurzeń".
    What is unclear and at stake here is which culture actually - hetero or homo - was more prevalent among Cossacks. Maybe it was dependent on their unit, and in case of non-register Cossacks (not enlisted into a standing Polish army) these units were mostly territorial (eg. "kurzeń czechryński"), which again could explain this difference by genetical divergences in respective territories of Ukraine.

    Replies: @AP, @Mr. Hack

    Poles could romanticize Ukraine as they were still the victors, at least over Ukrainians, since all Cossacks uprisings – and there were around 10 of them, not just Chmielnicki’s – were defeated by Poles

    Correction: the rebels and traitors were defeated by the forces of Rzeczpospolita which included Ukrainians. Don’t pretend that the PLC was some sort of Polish nationalist state.

    For example in the Kosinski uprising, Ruthenian (proto-Ukrainian) magnates and nobles crushed an uprising by Cossacks led by an ethnic Polish nobleman, Kosinski, whose estate was seized by a Ruthenian magnate.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosi%C5%84ski_uprising

  945. @LatW
    @songbird


    Poland was seriously the only country I had hope for. If there were a state of about 40 million Europeans, then I think it would be more functional and powerful than Germany in 2050. With native Germans as a willing fifth column, it could gain territory and maybe, become a state of 60-80 million. Still small compared to others, but perhaps enough to be a base for a slow reconquest.
     
    If you're talking about reconquista, then that's a different topic. What I was talking about was the influence of the US State Department and other Western institutions on the internal decision making process within the country. For a reconquista, one would need more than one country. It would still be difficult, because most people even in EE are not WNs, not because America told them so, but because they cannot be bothered, they care about other things more. But I think the Polish immigration law is still more conservative and tight than German or French.

    No advocacy for Western Europeans.
     
    Well, how do you see such advocacy from the side of CEEs, in practical terms?

    I was speaking of territory outside of Ukraine’s borders, extending a long line into the Far East.
     
    Yes, outside of current Ukraine's borders, in Krasnodar and Stavropol krai. Although they settled there quite late.

    Replies: @songbird

    What I was talking about was the influence of the US State Department and other Western institutions on the internal decision making process within the country.

    Honestly, I often suspect that many WEs are too quick to lay all the blame on the US.

    [MORE]
    To a certain extent, I think it is just the same process repeating across the Atlantic that happened here. (And I think one could unfortunately say this for much of EE). But, maybe, it is useful for nationalists to be anti-American. Though I am not entirely sure, if it avoids root mechanisms, but then again Hollywood has become one of these.

    Well, how do you see such advocacy from the side of CEEs, in practical terms?

    Most of all, I’d like EEs to get their house in order, in terms of immigration and TFR. If they did, I expect that there will eventually be some amount of capital flight there. I like how Orban (whatever his flaws) seems to have an assertive vision. I’d like to see more of that. I think an EE with their house in order would give blackpilled Western Europeans hope.

    Beyond that, I think it would be mostly gestures. Committees, rhetoric, propaganda, state press. Try to embarrass the Western regime, by pointing to its contradictions and the way it persecutes nationalists.

    I’d like to see some effort of coordination intended to compete with multicult Hollywood. I think it is really harmful for European nationalists to have Hollywood’s degenerate and multicult-by-default effluent dominate the culture. I believe that there is a commercial model that could be exploited. That there is a market for non-multicult stuff even among non-Euros who want to see the genuine product. Maybe, they could even try a quota system, to limit the negative influence of Hollywood.

    I probably don’t have the best strategy, but I’d like to see a regular effort put into it. Maybe, they could use analytics to try for find out what works best, and a kind of skunk works for trying new things.

    • Replies: @LatW
    @songbird


    Honestly, I often suspect that many WEs are too quick to lay all the blame on the US.
     
    That's correct, the US is but one of the actors (the problem with the US in this context is that they are promoting the most extreme end of the ideology which most American citizens don't even share, much less citizens of other countries). There are a ton of other WE orgs and even what seems at this point global ones, OSCE, Lesbian and Gay organization ILGA, Council of Europe, Amnesty International and various other leftist scum. But they can act in a concerted effort, if needed. There is a dynamic there, especially with engaging with the local collaborators. It is important to split up those international orgs from the local collaborators (who are much weaker on their own).


    To a certain extent, I think it is just the same process repeating across the Atlantic that happened here. (And I think one could unfortunately say this for much of EE)
     
    The EEs have their core nationalities from ancient times which helps but it may not be sufficient. If the narrative was switched from "the modern political nation" to the narrative of "uniqueness of people" then this could help. By the way, there is a rising "decolonization" narrative in Brussels and around Europe which is directed towards Russia, Ukraine, Chechens, Tatars, etc. This narrative could possibly be framed to help EEs.

    But, maybe, it is useful for nationalists to be anti-American.
     
    Anti-Americanism is kind of a topic of its own, it is multi-faceted. One can have somewhat useful pro-Americanism such as libertarianism, believe it or not, a while ago there were far right EE Trumpists running around. I think some are still there.

    Remember also that the EEs have their local culture, not everyone even watches Hollywood, they also draw some from WE. Let's not blame America for all sins - it varies, someone like myself loves America for the "eagles, leaping salmon, rugged mountains, freedom", etc., which has nothing to do with things that others might like such as "multi-culturalism, African American culture, SWPL culture even, tech, higher ed, etc. Not to mention crazy liberals, I once met a lesbian journalist in my home country who was antagonizing the local politicians with her work and when she was confronted with it, she said "Obama is my president!" (as in I'm not going to respect local politicians, and in this case America is just used as some "higher ideal" to mess with your compatriots, or they use "the Nordic states" this and that, as if everyone has to be like them, frankly, anything can be used that way - it's how the fifth column behave, this "ideal" or benchmark can be anything out there). It can be that nutty at the fringes. Everyone is different.

    Btw, I don't really feel comfortable pushing WN in the US because the American people do not like these things in many cases. I believe we should support people such as Greg J, but we should as Europeans also respect the will of the American people and their traditions.


    Most of all, I’d like EEs to get their house in order, in terms of immigration and TFR
     
    Right, everyone should get their "house in order". Because, if the Western nationalists don't, but expect it from the EEs, then it's kind of weird. But those are minor, petty differences. The big picture is that, of course, they should. But remember that EEs are normal people, too. Most people will dedicate their lives to themselves, not WN ideals. Then again, they know inside that in some cases those ideals are closely connected to their wellbeing (even if not spelled out exactly that way).

    If they did, I expect that there will eventually be some amount of capital flight there.
     
    They are receiving capital, but, of course, nowhere near as much as Western Europe and Scandinavia. This is a tricky question, because obviously what matters is how this capital is used. If the capital is used to create the same economic relationship as in the West, then it might not be that great.

    Recently, I've been thinking a lot about decentralization (and maybe even de-urbanization), and how it could affect these things. Of course, we should not give up our cities, never! But - in a targeted way, smaller areas can be built up and those areas will not be as inviting or attractive to non-Euros. There is a bit of this trend starting in the Baltics, I'm assuming also elsewhere such as Poland maybe. Basically many young families no longer want to live in the city and, while they might be earning their money there, they are not spending it there as much as before, but keeping it on the outskirts of the city where the living standards are getting higher. The city is complaining about it.
    I believe this is the way out.

    Beyond that, I think it would be mostly gestures. Committees, rhetoric, propaganda, state press. Try to embarrass the Western regime, by pointing to its contradictions and the way it persecutes nationalists.

     

    These gestures may need to be refined to make them more clandestine. Of course, one way is to do it the way Orban does it, very straightforward. But there is a smarter, more refined way to skew the narrative. You know that Orban recently mentioned something like "we're not going to race mix" or something similar and, of course, was trashed for it. This narrative could be skewed to talk about "the uniqueness of small nations" (can be applied to many nations in Europe, in fact, most) that should be preserved (untouchable). Etc. Do it from the other end - not as the "aggressive white guy" but as a "passive vulnerable female". Orban is even trying to use his Turanic roots, they could be presented as "the Other" in Europe, be special, what not. The only small nuance is that they have to observe the EU rules.

    I’d like to see some effort of coordination intended to compete with multicult Hollywood.
     
    Oh there is. It might be on the margins but there is a ton of folkish European culture going around among the youth (and even older), in music, art, festivals. It may not be as coordinated but it is built from the bottom up (some of it is protected by the state). But only certain youths gravitate towards it, however, I've been pleasantly surprised that they keep coming. Of course, there are other youths who are attracted to negative culture.

    I believe that there is a commercial model that could be exploited. That there is a market for non-multicult stuff even among non-Euros who want to see the genuine product.
     
    Absolutely there is. It is working now. But it's not as wide as needed. A lot of it is crypto WN. It's just people who are involved in it do not view it that way, they are innocent and do not formulate it in political terms.


    Maybe, they could use analytics to try for find out what works best, and a kind of skunk works for trying new things.
     
    This is an interesting idea, I have thought about it myself (in terms of market research, analytics can also be used, the way it is used in business). Good idea.

    "Through the centuries.."

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFFQFdVbouQ
  946. @Yahya
    @songbird


    . A lot wrong with this argument. I’ll just mention a few things.
     
    You haven’t refuted anything I’ve said; just shifted to another topic like the civil war.

    Do you or do you not believe the 1965 Immigration Act was disastrous for America? And are you going to own up to Kennedy’s instrumental role in passing it through?

    The civil rights act was voted on a primarily North-South cline. Northerners; whether Democrat or Republican; voted for it. Southerners voted against it. Irish-Americans tend to be concentrated in the Northeast; where liberalism of the Democrat and Republican variety reigns supreme. The Irish are key constituents; and several of their prominent representatives like the Kennedy’s and the current US president are bastions of liberalism. The Irish are probably the most liberal white ethnicity in America; not far behind Jews.


    Elections matter very little. Who believes that the American public ever voted to open the borders to the Third World? No country did, but here we are. What matters only is elite opinion.
     
    Well I agree that most Americans didn’t consciously vote for open borders. But you’re mistaken if you absolve the public of all responsibility and put it all at the feet of the elites. A significant portion of “good white” liberals actually do support increased immigration; and the rest of white American is either apathetic or too cowardly to oppose it in any meaningful manner. You have to remember that 40% of whites still vote Democrat in elections - that’s not a majority but fairly close to it.

    In Germany people are even more feckless and apathetic; supporting Merkel in large numbers even after she opened the borders in the most reckless way imaginable. Still, after being fed-up with the CDU, what does the German voting public do? Turn to the AfD? Nope. They comically give more votes to the nutty Greens than the AfD. These are all free and fair elections in which the majority of the electorate are still native Germans.

    Replies: @songbird

    You haven’t refuted anything I’ve said

    What specifically? That ethnically Irish voters elected corrupt pols who were responsible for the 1965 immigration act, and it wouldn’t have happened without them? That it was the Irish voting for Democrats that tipped the balance?

    [MORE]

    Have you looked at the actual vote?:

    In the Senate, 52 Democrats voted yes, 14 no, and 1 abstained. Among Senate Republicans, 24 voted yes, 3 voted no, and 1 abstained.[29] In the House, 202 Democrats voted yes, 60 voted no, and 12 abstained, 118 Republicans voted yes, 10 voted no, and 11 abstained.[30] In total, 74% of Democrats and 85% of Republicans voted for passage of this bill.

    Your theory seems invalidated by the fact it was a landslide bipartisan vote, with a higher percentage of Republicans voting yea. If you want more proof, search for a primary European heritage map of US states. (The actual areas where Irish is the primary heritage are small). And Irish certainly don’t dominate political donations, or have the motive for opening borders to the Global South.

    just shifted to another topic like the civil war.

    Pretty big deal over here. Just a few years ago they went Cultural Revolution on Southern history, and they are still putting up statues of BIPOCs in place of Southern war heroes.

    and the current US president

    I’ve looked into this. Top estimate given is 5/8. But a lot of the surnames quoted (Arthurs, Stanton, Blewitt) don’t seem to have a native Irish origin. I doubt that he is even half Irish. He’s pretty corrupt now, and was never an honest guy. But I will at least give him points for at one time having been against school busing. A lot of corrupt pols were – maybe, they had to be.
    ____

    You still haven’t answered my request for Yahya’s global rule on who has the right to stay and who can be deported with moral righteousness. I think you are avoiding stating a plain opinion

    I think natural ethnostates seem like too small of a carve out, and also it seems pretty obvious that they are open to deconstruction. Subversives can cite any small group of immigrants historically (was done with England), and that is the foot in the door. If it can be done to Japan, at least in theory, (and it can), then what country is safe?

    I also want to say that I think a limitation to natural ethno-states doesn’t make sense. If we imagine that Austria-Hungary still existed, it would be a pretty diverse place in one way, but that wouldn’t be a justification for keeping Somalis there for ten thousand years, if they had found a loophole in, or otherwise been granted citizenship by a corrupt regime.

  947. @S
    @songbird

    One could say, that since the time of the founding of the United States, that there were two countries at war with each other. The one, a traditional ethnic (ie racially based) country, which people since the founding of the United States had been led to believe they had, particularly in times of war, and another United States, which was promoted by powerful elements amongst the elites and their hangers on, which was to be the spearhead of a future global super state and empire, the United States of the World.

    I, probably along with most, think the traditional ethnic state was better, but due to the very nature of the United States, with it's secret societies, which many probably didn't understand what they were up to (though they ought to have), the odds have always probably been against the traditional ethnic state succeeding.


    Some people really revile Darby O’Gill but I admit I quite liked it.
     
    I was going to watch this on YouTube but found out, even over sixty years old as it is, it still has to be bought or rented. Some of the clips though show it had good special effects. I was surprised to see Sean Connery in it. It looks to have been an okay movie.

    Replies: @songbird

    I was going to watch this on YouTube but found out, even over sixty years old as it is, it still has to be bought or rented.

    I think it is pretty crazy how they haven’t released Song of the South into the public domain, even though they seem to have completely renounced it. Not one of my favorites. Though interesting to see in a historical/sociological sense. Consider it pretty woke for the time. (blacks are depicted quite favorably, the only real negative characters are two poor white boy Southerners.) Guess they probably wouldn’t sue you, if you torrented it.

    Suppose Disney is pretty tight-fisted with their old IPs. Maybe, part of it is that they are not so confident about their new stuff. I think they are coasting on nostalgia and their large footprint, which makes them a quasi-monopoly. (crazy how they extended copyright law.)

    • Agree: S, S
  948. @LatW
    @Beckow


    Where did you come with 100 years? A rhetoric refuge because you lost the argument? How about 20 years or 5 years? It doesn’t take long to arm a country and threaten its neighbor. Let’s also drop the casual anti-Russian racism, countries like US, China, UK, France plan for long term, even 100 years.
     
    It's just figurative speech for "long term". This wasn't meant as anything negative, on the contrary. Why are you so defensive? How is this "anti-Russian racism"? If I wanted to do "anti-Russian racism", I'd be saying completely different things.

    Yes, Russia plans long term, so even if NATO didn't place anything in Ukraine, they would still be suspicious. It's cautious behavior. The problem with it is that one can make up any kind of threat and use it as pretext. Which they've historically done a lot. Stalin was going around shooting people because he was seeing foreign spies everywhere (among his own population), same mentality.

    I wasn't disagreeing with you about NATO in Russia's vicinity. But you very conveniently avoided my most important point - about security guarantees to Ukraine and others around Russia. Your suggestion to just "suck it up" doesn't work (historically proven not to work). So I'm assuming that you just believe that Russia should be allowed to do anything, but those who are Russia's targets need to be demilitarized. And that kind of an approach doesn't solve the problem. So you can't propose a viable solution.

    Russia doesn't accept an independent Ukraine. Imagine there is no NATO, but Ukraine still wants to be the way they want to be since 2014. Russia wouldn't accept that. The problem is deeper than just NATO.


    Serbia. Beograd is a lot closer to core Europe then Kiev. You can’t be serious pretending that you don’t know it.
     
    If you had read my comment more carefully - I asked when did such a conflict take place on European soil last (not if). It's been 24 years but you talk as if NATO does this in Europe every other year. NATO troops never walked into people's homes, raping women and stealing things.

    The air strikes, while harsh, lasted from 24 March 1999 to 10 June 1999. So a couple of months (of course, it is still very tragic). How long has Russia been striking Ukraine with missiles now? Either way, the intervention into the Yugoslav wars does not justify invasion of Ukraine.

    Do you realize that the same criticisms you have for Ukraine could be used against Serbia as well? "Do not provoke your neighbors", "don't be nationalist chauvinist", "do not be aggressive", "observe others' rights", etc.

    You talk as if all those years Russia never waged a single war, when Russia was actively waging several wars.

    Regarding military vacuum post-1991 in EE: it was a good thing! we grew, people invested, we had better economies.
     
    Yes, it was good (although the Baltic States were never fully safe). It was a lull. It lasted a bit because Russia was weak, as soon as Russia grew stronger, which coincided with the oil boom, problems began. Of course, the deterioration of the relationship is not all Russia's fault, but to ignore these underlying dynamics is disingenuous.

    Btw, speaking of "people invested" - investments are still growing in EE (except Ukraine, of course), regardless of all this mess.

    So does US, Canada, even France. Would you suggest to them to be cool with all that hinterland nobody can attack them?
     
    Where do you see those countries going around and invading and murdering their neighbors? And, yes, those countries have major buffers and a lot of depth, so when it comes to the defense of their own soil, they're ok. As would be Russia by just placing missiles along periphery (which they've done).

    Large territory also means that you have more to defend – so that whole argument is rather irrelevant to what we are discussing.
     
    That's exactly what I was saying! There is more than enough work with defending the existing territory without getting into crazy escapades. Now in the last minute they are rushing to place anti-defense on their roofs in Moscow (as if those things shouldn't have been there already). If the invasion doesn't succeed and they're not able to hold what they've invaded, the Ukrainian troops will keep pushing them back and in the worst case scenarios all of those Russian border areas could be on fire and the war could continue there. Do they have enough protection there?

    Kaliningrad (Poland for some reason grabbed an equal piece of the old Prussia and nobody ever wants to mention that
     
    Poland has more rights to Kaliningrad than Russia - Northern Poland has many assimilated Old Prussians who are the original population of East Prussia, so it makes sense. Apparently, Stalin wanted to give Kaliningrad to Lithuania. Poland was present in that region since antiquity, so Poland didn't "grab" anything. Russia has never been in Kaliningrad before 1945. Why was this region still militarized after 1991, if all was so good, why was this region militarized further by placing Iskander there?

    Anglos had nothing to do with it, stop re-writing WW2 history.
     
    Anglos had everything to do with it, had Anglos not been Stalin's allies and provided all that help, Kaliningrad would never become Soviet/Russian, which it has never been historically.

    You are seem to be blind to recent history: would France allow French speakers in Belgium to be oppressed? Did UK leave its “Anglos” to their fate in Ulster?
     
    Those countries did not walk into other countries and didn't start murdering people. Wrong comparisons. Everyone cares about their co-ethnics, but not everyone uses them to achieve geopolitical goals and to invade (and try to destroy another ethnicity). What is more absurd now is that Russia is killing the carriers of the Russian language. Maybe they will realize only later how self-destructive this is.

    Given that he is no role on policy – he is ‘ceremonial’ – we will probably get a lot of these random kicks.
     
    I understand the part about his role not being executive, but these days public diplomacy just means so much. He seems to be interested in the whole world, not just his region. It's up to him if he wants to be just the president of Czechia or something more. I'm more interested in what he might contribute to the European defense capability, even with just words of encouragement.

    It looks like he'd be ready to visit Ukraine soon with your president. Ukraine is hoping that he will help coordinate the assistance, obviously he is well informed about all the possibilities (as former military), that he will become one of the key moderators, in fact.

    Replies: @LatW, @songbird, @Beckow

    …I wasn’t disagreeing with you about NATO in Russia’s vicinity. But you very conveniently avoided my most important point – about security guarantees to Ukraine and others around Russia. Your suggestion to just “suck it up” doesn’t work

    I didn’t, I specifically said that it is “chicken-and-egg” dilemma – with those it is impossible to determine as in this case whether it is Nato’s expansion or Russia’s security obsession that have triggered the war. Maybe it is 50-50, but I would say that since Nato was the initiator they bear a larger share of responsibility.

    Whether Ukraine and other Russia’s neighbors would be threatened anyway is impossible to say. We can look at recent history and unquestionably Russia only got involved when its co-ethnics (Russians, Ossetians…) were threatened and when Nato was involved. It is possible that they actively meddled anyway – large countries all do that, there is an enormous amount of US meddling all over Europe.

    the same criticisms you have for Ukraine could be used against Serbia as well? “Do not provoke your neighbors”

    Kosovo was at that time part of Serbia. My point is simple: Nato brutally used force in Serbia with no regard for civilians to ‘protect minority rights’ – it was and still is celebrated and it happened first. It was a precedent.

    Your silly argument that ‘well, Nato doesn’t do it every year‘, that it was 20 years ago is very stupid. It has just happened, the attack on Serbia continued for years, eliminating the northern ‘Kosovo’ enclave, attacking monasteries, etc… all with Nato’s help and support. Then there was also Iraq, Afghan., Libya, Syria…all in the last years. That says two things:
    – Nato is not a defensive pact – it uses massive force, bombs and has no domestic restraints due to its complete control over media-politicians
    – If Nato can use the ‘minority’ argument to start a war, others will too. Sorry.

    You never answered that point because in your world it is unanswerable – hypocrisy this massive doesn’t travel well, others will simply not accept it and ignore all you say. The war is about whether Nato can continue enforcing its Nato-centric view of the world – so far it looks like they won’t be able to. Poor Ukies are simple ‘collateral damage’. As were the Serbs, Iraqis…

    Poland has more rights to Kaliningrad than Russia…

    Poland lost the war and Russia won. In general, it is the winner who gets the spoils. Your silly argument doesn’t amount to anything in the real world. Poland is lucky that Russians saved them in WW2, they would not exist today without Russia. Anglos were not going to invade Poland to liberate it, they would not be willing to lose any lives over lowly Poles. Same today with the Ukies, but you seem to prefer to live your illusions…

  949. @AP
    @Another Polish Perspective


    You are aware that your statement is a warrant for following statements
     
    No they do not. I did not take you for an idiot but congratulations on revealing yourself. Unless you are trolling, of course.

    well – “dark legends” without refuting them with any credible arguments about the matter
     
    If I make up dark legends about your people having sex with beasts would you prove otherwise? Isn’t there a Polish expression about proving that one isn’t a camel?

    If Kitowicz makes wild claims he should have proven them.

    Per Ukrainian Academy of Sciences, Kitowicz was an anti-Cossack bigot who repeated tales from decades before he was born, tales told by the Cossacks’ bitter enemies. The fact that you take them seriously reveals much about you. I recall toy were arguing some nonsense about ancient Slavs with Ivashka earlier on, you have a taste for bizarre ideas.

    According to you, following logical statements are warranted:

    1) Poles are naturally biased when talking about Ukrainians.
     
    So because I repeated the conclusions by a Ukrainian historians that this man from 200 years ago was biased, in your twisted little mind this “logically” means that “Poles are naturally biased.”

    Do you think that Kitowicz can be generalized to all Poles? In your little mind, is Polish historiography equal to Kitowicz. If so, I have a much higher opinion of Poles than you do!

    2) Poles can say no truthful bad things about Ukrainians. Sincere hostility does not exists in the case of Poles
     
    So in your little mind, it is “logical” to conclude that to say that Kitowicz was biased and repeated dark fairytales about Cossacks, is to also say that Poles in general can’t be truthful about Ukrainians.

    Given your display of “logic” and “reasoning” we can conclude about you that you are a rather muddled fool who can’t judge sources, and can’t reason about what he reads nor draw logical conclusions. In your individual case, literacy may have been a mistake.

    Anything you write can be dismissed accordingly. You are an embarrassment to the great Polish people. You are worthy of being recruited by the Russian nationalists at least, some of their fanboys share your faults.

    Replies: @Another Polish Perspective, @Another Polish Perspective

    If you will go on like this, this is my last answer to you. I answer now mainly for the benefit of other participants of the forum, since you surely will not be convinced, as it was clear from other discussions with you.

    I am a professionally trained historian. If I do not research the field, I rely on the opinion of other trained historians. I know what is external critique of source, internal critique of source etc. If you would know something about history, you would notice traces of such critique in my arguments. For example, I engaged in internal critique of source, by detecting a real argumentation of gay culture concerning chastity & sin through comparison with interviews-based “Sodom” of Frederic Martel. By that, I established that what Kitowicz says may not be a fable, since at least that part seems to be true. Others, like “Cossacks have no wives” could be confirmed by simple observation at that time. Once again, if Kitowicz book, titled “Description of customs…”, NOT ” A fable…” was popular among his contemporaries, it means he most likely did not lie. BTW, at the roots of history are tales like that of Kitowicz – not histories written by academics. Moreover, sometimes legends turn out true – so it was with “Templars worship Baphomet” dark legend. It turned out to be true several years ago when authentic documents of Templar confessions during their trial were found. But you will surely claim that these confessions are invalid since they were made “under duress”.

    Unlike you, I do not make claims without supporting them with arguments. Instead arguments, you have just labels. Since you do not use arguments – and even your argument from “the Ukrainian Academy of Sciences” is just a label here – you base your argumentation on generalizations… it is those generalizations [which I only made explicit] which are warrants four your conclusion, whether you like it or not.

    Here an example from Polish state radio of 2022 which apparently spreads a still received opinion that Kitowicz is indeed considered “a meticulous observateur and a precursor of ethnography”. The article says that Kitowicz “Description of customs under the reign of August III” is a great historical source until today – unlike his “Memories”, which again rises the credibility of Kitowicz who was thus aware of differences between his personal musings and descriptions of facts.

    https://www.polskieradio.pl/39/156/Artykul/2930092,Jedrzej-Kitowicz-uwazny-obserwator-obyczajow-i-prekursor-etnografii

    As the quarrel started with Zelenski’s gay photo, one must notice the similarity of these rumours with those concerning Macron, who has neither denied nor confirmed them. It seems that such rumours are a kind of green beard, signalling homosexuality to those who want to believe them – which are other gays.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green-beard_effect

    • Replies: @AP
    @Another Polish Perspective


    I answer now mainly for the benefit of other participants of the forum
     
    Indeed, please do continue demonstrating your inability to reason for other participants of the forum.

    Once again, if Kitowicz book, titled “Description of customs…”, NOT ” A fable…” was popular among his contemporaries, it means he most likely did not lie.
     
    His contemporaries being, like him, anti-Orthodox Catholic Poles whose people had recently been slaughtered and massacred by Orthodox Cossacks.

    Can a “trained historian” understand why fairytales about Cossacks engaging in homosexuality and bestiality might be popular among such people?

    Similarly, do you as a “trained historian” think that anti-Spanish fairytales told by their enemies the English and highly regarded by English must be true?

    Instead arguments, you have just labels. Since you do not use arguments – and even your argument from “the Ukrainian Academy of Sciences” is just a label here
     
    I summarized the conclusions of historians of the Institute of History of the Ukrainian Academy of Sciences that the source was an anti-Cossack bigot who used stories and anecdotes.

    Here an example from Polish state radio of 2022 which apparently spreads a still received opinion that Kitowicz is indeed considered “a meticulous observateur and a precursor of ethnography”. The article says that Kitowicz “Description of customs under the reign of August III” is a great historical source until today

     

    About customs outside of Poland, 100 years before Augustus’s reign?

    Moreover, sometimes legends turn out true – so it was with “Templars worship Baphomet” dark legend. It turned out to be true several years ago when authentic documents of Templar confessions during their trial were found. But you will surely claim that these confessions are invalid since they were made “under duress”
     
    Indeed that is someone who, unlike you, is capable of logic and reason.

    When the Templars confessed they also claimed that Satan appeared to them in a the form of a cat and conversed with them.

    You the “trained historian” finds this to be true.

    Do you the “trained historian” also claim that details and confessions of those tortured by NKVD were also true?

    Replies: @Another Polish Perspective

  950. @AP
    @Another Polish Perspective


    You are aware that your statement is a warrant for following statements
     
    No they do not. I did not take you for an idiot but congratulations on revealing yourself. Unless you are trolling, of course.

    well – “dark legends” without refuting them with any credible arguments about the matter
     
    If I make up dark legends about your people having sex with beasts would you prove otherwise? Isn’t there a Polish expression about proving that one isn’t a camel?

    If Kitowicz makes wild claims he should have proven them.

    Per Ukrainian Academy of Sciences, Kitowicz was an anti-Cossack bigot who repeated tales from decades before he was born, tales told by the Cossacks’ bitter enemies. The fact that you take them seriously reveals much about you. I recall toy were arguing some nonsense about ancient Slavs with Ivashka earlier on, you have a taste for bizarre ideas.

    According to you, following logical statements are warranted:

    1) Poles are naturally biased when talking about Ukrainians.
     
    So because I repeated the conclusions by a Ukrainian historians that this man from 200 years ago was biased, in your twisted little mind this “logically” means that “Poles are naturally biased.”

    Do you think that Kitowicz can be generalized to all Poles? In your little mind, is Polish historiography equal to Kitowicz. If so, I have a much higher opinion of Poles than you do!

    2) Poles can say no truthful bad things about Ukrainians. Sincere hostility does not exists in the case of Poles
     
    So in your little mind, it is “logical” to conclude that to say that Kitowicz was biased and repeated dark fairytales about Cossacks, is to also say that Poles in general can’t be truthful about Ukrainians.

    Given your display of “logic” and “reasoning” we can conclude about you that you are a rather muddled fool who can’t judge sources, and can’t reason about what he reads nor draw logical conclusions. In your individual case, literacy may have been a mistake.

    Anything you write can be dismissed accordingly. You are an embarrassment to the great Polish people. You are worthy of being recruited by the Russian nationalists at least, some of their fanboys share your faults.

    Replies: @Another Polish Perspective, @Another Polish Perspective

    By the way, yesterday you identified as “Wend”, today you are an Ukrainian. Unless you equate Varangians with Wends, the only way in which you can be both Wend & Ukrainian is to ascribe to that old legend I spoke about previously, that Wends once lived in central and north Poland. Then, with their harps and lyres, Wends could have emigrated to the bordering land of Ukraine later – that would preserve the later legacy of genetic & cultural differences between Poles and Ukrainians.

    • Replies: @AP
    @Another Polish Perspective


    By the way, yesterday you identified as “Wend”, today you are an Ukrainian
     
    Hers is another example of your inability to reason and use logic.

    I stated that my patrilineal haplogroup was of the Wendish type - that is, that some Wend ~1200 years ago joined the Rus adventurers and settled in the East Slavic lands. My haplogroup is most common around Novgorod and Pskov (areas of Varangian settlement), then around the Baltic, with a small cluster around Kiev and Chernihiv. It fits the pattern of where Varangians were.

    You claim that this means that I identified as a Wend.

    You can’t even understand simple discussions and make ridiculous interpretation ms of what it have read in them, yet you dare make conclusions about historical texts you have read.

    Unless you equate Varangians with Wends

     

    Ivashka, who is both smarter and better informed than you, has stated and provided sources that Varangians were a mix of Norse and Wends. The fact that my Wendish haplogroup follows the Varangian settlement pattern corroborates what he wrote.

    I understand that such logic is beyond your ability, of course.

    Replies: @Another Polish Perspective

  951. @Another Polish Perspective
    @Yahya

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hej_Soko%C5%82y

    The song's authorship is not completely certain,[1] some historians attribute the writing of the song to the Ukrainian-Polish poet-songwriter Tomasz Padura (1801–1871)[1][2] (however, according to the latest Ukrainian research, there are no lyrics of the song in any of Padura's song collections[3]), and others believe it was written by the Polish classical composer Maciej Kamieński (1734–1825).

    It looks like this song was actually composed by a Pole and written by a Pole, and it reflects pre-Bandera, pre-nationalism time when Ukraine was romanticized to some extent - the example of it was the triple coat of arms (Poland/Lithuania/Rus) during the January Uprising of 1863. Many Poles were former Ukrainians, even Cossacks, as some of them were ennobled in Poland. Also at that time Poles could romanticize Ukraine as they were still the victors, at least over Ukrainians, since all Cossacks uprisings - and there were around 10 of them, not just Chmielnicki's - were defeated by Poles. That changed after senseless Bandera killing of Poles during WWII. Bandera & UPA actions during WWII finally shattered that previous romanticization of Ukraine; yet after WWI Poles and Ukrainians fought for Lviv, but Poles won again, and anyway part of Ukrainians (under Petlura) allied with Poland.

    Anyway, even from Kitowicz one can deduce that there was surely part of Cossacks who were heterosexuals, as they were those punished by the gay types when they came back to their "kurzeń".
    What is unclear and at stake here is which culture actually - hetero or homo - was more prevalent among Cossacks. Maybe it was dependent on their unit, and in case of non-register Cossacks (not enlisted into a standing Polish army) these units were mostly territorial (eg. "kurzeń czechryński"), which again could explain this difference by genetical divergences in respective territories of Ukraine.

    Replies: @AP, @Mr. Hack

    Since you seem to be such an expert on homosexuality within cossack formations, are you also as well versed about the same lifestyle practiced within the Polish hussars? The “gay gene” amongst Poles seems to have survived intact amongst modern day Poles today. Why all of the worry today though from you? Surely you must live in one of those LGBTQ free zones that are prevalent within Poland today?

    • Replies: @Another Polish Perspective
    @Mr. Hack

    https://www.unz.com/article/my-journey-to-the-homosexual-question/

    There has been an article on homosexuality recently on unz, with some heated comments how this is prevalent among WNs. Strangely, this seems to be a touchy subject here too, with some commenters tacitly accepting Maennerbunde as so natural that they can't simply produce any questions. I even said that already a long time ago, on my own, I once wondered about lack of historical relations about Cossacks wives, their marriage customs etc. However, it seems that only me here asked once such a question. That I wasn't shy to ask such a question does not mean I am an expert on homosexuality; much more it means how such subjects are simply not investigated, homosexuality being tacitly accepted for what it simply claims to be - a natural trait, equally distributed in random way in any population.

    Aside from the simple denial offered by AP, another assumption - which you seem to offer in your question about husaria, is that [rampant] homosexuality must arise simply by the power of nature among men, notwithstanding any social, moral or religious bans on it [since you are a religious person, I find such a claim of professed sin rather strange on your part], for example among Hussaria - which are no relations of, at least known to me - I even googled now "Husaria i homoseksualizm w historii" and got just 2 pages of irrelevant hits!

    As for hussars, in my comment no. 939 I said


    Yet [Cossacks] unlike Polish voluntary military like husaria, they don’t seem to have steady relationships or families or homes to which they would return every year – which is strange.


     

    Husaria was recruited among well-to-do nobles, who had families and lands, since they themselves paid for their weaponry and horses, not a state. It was a voluntary organization, a kind of trained militia/citizen army - as nobles, they couldn't be executed by their commanders for desertion etc. The command couldn't do much to enforce their discipline. Unless there was a war, they weren't serving 365 days in year, they spent time at home too. Often they served for 2-3 years, then made a pause at home for several years, to serve again for a couple of years.

    Cossacks, on the other hand, apparently spent time mostly among themselves, besides what was needed to create a competent fighting organization.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @Mr. Hack

  952. @songbird
    @S

    Here's a much lesser known song about the social damage caused by emigration:
    https://youtu.be/DiPhRTCSJM0

    Not intended as a war song (or so I suspect), but I always thought it would be a good song to have as a background for young men going to war and getting killed in a meat-grinder.

    One about migrant laborers in England:
    https://youtu.be/zMvv3LL94GM

    Ronnie Drew was actually my favorite singer of all the Dubliners.

    Replies: @S

    Here’s a much lesser known song about the social damage caused by emigration:

    Thanks for the tunes.

    Yes, as they so well describe, wage slavery, ie the greatly immoral so called ‘cheap labor’/’mass immigration’ system, which is nothing less than the early 19th century monetization of chattel slavery and it’s trade, and which is the economic and political basis of the modern progressive Multi-Cultural state, is incredibly socially destructive, and genocidal in the truest sense of that often much abused term, both for those people(s) whom by diktat are on the receiving end of the wage slaves (known by the euphemism as ‘immigrants’ and, or, ‘cheap labor’) and for those people(s) being preyed upon enmasse as a source of the wage slaves.

    [MORE]

    The Irish well understood this fact, as documented by the 1847 London newspaper article excerpted and linked below entitled ‘Extermination and Vengeance’.

    ‘Extermination,’ referring to the truly genocidal nature of this system, and ‘vengeance’ referring to how members of the British aristocracy in Ireland whom were promoting this utter poison at the time as a very good thing for Ireland and the Irish people, were being shot for doing so.

    In my post archives can be found a very ‘progressive’/proto Multi-cultural London Times editorial from that same era (circa 1851) in regards to the then US ambassador to the UK, the Northern industrialists and founder of Lawrence ‘Immigrant City’, Massachusetts, Abbott Lawrence, and his then ongoing personal tour of Ireland.

    The editorial, entirely concurring with the Irish accessment of ‘extermination’, declares that as a direct result of the then ongoing enmasse predation of the Irish people as wage slaves (ie as so called ‘immigrants’) by the United States, that people such as the American Abbott Lawrence represented, that the Irish would be ‘known no more’ as a people. Where the Irish people had once been in Ireland, a new people, the result of immigrants brought into Ireland by diktat who have mixed with the local Celtic Irish, which is to be ‘more mixed’, ‘more docile’, and ‘which can submit to a master’, will take the present Irish people’s place.

    Within the context of the Times editorial, it is plain that the new race which it declares is to take the Irish people’s place, which it describes as being a race of slaves, is referring to the people of Northern Ireland, the descendants of the ‘Plantation’.

    This well demonstrates what is in reality the utter contempt that is held toward ‘the immigrants’ and the resulting ‘mixed’ populations, and how they are seen as slaves by the powers that be, and slaves they are within the so called ‘progressive’ Multi-Cultural system.

    Extermination and Vengeance

    ‘The Irish papers, alluding to his estate of Leganommer, had a terrific story of “extermination in Leitrim,” full of direct falsehoods.’

    ‘Setting aside smaller matters, it appears that the tenants on the estate owed rent for several years, in some instances for as many as twelve or fourteen; one year’s rent was demanded, under pain of a twelve month’s notice to quit; not a shilling of rent was offered, and the notice was enforced, but the enforcement was accompanied with a declaration that those who could not retain their holdings would be aided by their landlord to emigrate to America. Such is the conduct which the Irish incendiaries name “extermination.” It is well, in the approaching debates, that the Irish meaning of that word should be understood.’ The Spectator (Nov 20, 1847)

    http://archive.spectator.co.uk/article/20th-november-1847/12/extermination-and-vengeance

    • Thanks: songbird
  953. @Mr. Hack
    @Another Polish Perspective

    Since you seem to be such an expert on homosexuality within cossack formations, are you also as well versed about the same lifestyle practiced within the Polish hussars? The "gay gene" amongst Poles seems to have survived intact amongst modern day Poles today. Why all of the worry today though from you? Surely you must live in one of those LGBTQ free zones that are prevalent within Poland today?

    https://i.redd.it/6jed34d4e0311.jpg

    Replies: @Another Polish Perspective

    https://www.unz.com/article/my-journey-to-the-homosexual-question/

    There has been an article on homosexuality recently on unz, with some heated comments how this is prevalent among WNs. Strangely, this seems to be a touchy subject here too, with some commenters tacitly accepting Maennerbunde as so natural that they can’t simply produce any questions. I even said that already a long time ago, on my own, I once wondered about lack of historical relations about Cossacks wives, their marriage customs etc. However, it seems that only me here asked once such a question. That I wasn’t shy to ask such a question does not mean I am an expert on homosexuality; much more it means how such subjects are simply not investigated, homosexuality being tacitly accepted for what it simply claims to be – a natural trait, equally distributed in random way in any population.

    Aside from the simple denial offered by AP, another assumption – which you seem to offer in your question about husaria, is that [rampant] homosexuality must arise simply by the power of nature among men, notwithstanding any social, moral or religious bans on it [since you are a religious person, I find such a claim of professed sin rather strange on your part], for example among Hussaria – which are no relations of, at least known to me – I even googled now “Husaria i homoseksualizm w historii” and got just 2 pages of irrelevant hits!

    As for hussars, in my comment no. 939 I said

    Yet [Cossacks] unlike Polish voluntary military like husaria, they don’t seem to have steady relationships or families or homes to which they would return every year – which is strange.

    Husaria was recruited among well-to-do nobles, who had families and lands, since they themselves paid for their weaponry and horses, not a state. It was a voluntary organization, a kind of trained militia/citizen army – as nobles, they couldn’t be executed by their commanders for desertion etc. The command couldn’t do much to enforce their discipline. Unless there was a war, they weren’t serving 365 days in year, they spent time at home too. Often they served for 2-3 years, then made a pause at home for several years, to serve again for a couple of years.

    Cossacks, on the other hand, apparently spent time mostly among themselves, besides what was needed to create a competent fighting organization.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @Another Polish Perspective

    The cossacks within Ukraine were not a homogenous "one size fits all" sociological caste. There were registered cossacks often serving the Polish king. Also town cossacks defending larger towns often in the employ of the local governor or wealthy burghers. There were cossacks that strictly served in the private military formations of wealthy landowners, that could encompass up to 3,000 - 6000 individuals. And of course there were the zaporozhian cossacks that were the freest among the free.
    These individuals were mostly made up of cossacks that chose to live in the southern lands that were furthest away from governmental structures, and therefore banded together voluntarily in order to provide themselves a defense from tartar slave raiders. Although there was a small number that lived year around at the various siches, the vast majority would only serve there for a few months out of the year, returning home to be with their wives and families to take care of their lands and livestock.

    I would count somebody like Guillaume Le Vasseur de Beauplan, a French cartographer who spent more than 20 years living among the Ukrainian cossacks, who understood their lifestyle intimately and who indeed wrote of them in great detail, with no axe to grind with anybody about their activities, as being a primary and very important source for judging their lifestyle choices. Yet, he never mentions any homosexual activity that he witnessed or heard about among this warrior class?

    , @Mr. Hack
    @Another Polish Perspective

    The cossacks within Ukraine were not a homogenous "one size fits all" sociological caste. There were registered cossacks often serving the Polish king. Also town cossacks defending larger towns often in the employ of the local governor or wealthy burghers. There were cossacks that strictly served in the private military formations of wealthy landowners, that could encompass up to 3,000 - 6000 individuals. And of course there were the zaporozhian cossacks that were the freest among the free.

    These individuals were mostly made up of cossacks that chose to live in the southern lands that were furthest away from governmental structures, and therefore banded together voluntarily in order to provide themselves a defense from tartar slave raiders. Although there was a small number that lived year around at the various siches, the vast majority would only serve there for a few months out of the year, returning home to be with their wives and families to take care of their lands and livestock.

    I would count somebody like Guillaume Le Vasseur de Beauplan, a French cartographer who spent more than 20 years living among the Ukrainian cossacks, who understood their lifestyle intimately and who indeed wrote of them in great detail, with no axe to grind with anybody about their activities, as being a primary and very important source for judging their lifestyle choices. Yet, he never mentions any homosexual activity that he witnessed or heard about among this warrior class?

    Replies: @Another Polish Perspective

  954. @Another Polish Perspective
    @AP

    By the way, yesterday you identified as "Wend", today you are an Ukrainian. Unless you equate Varangians with Wends, the only way in which you can be both Wend & Ukrainian is to ascribe to that old legend I spoke about previously, that Wends once lived in central and north Poland. Then, with their harps and lyres, Wends could have emigrated to the bordering land of Ukraine later - that would preserve the later legacy of genetic & cultural differences between Poles and Ukrainians.

    Replies: @AP

    By the way, yesterday you identified as “Wend”, today you are an Ukrainian

    Hers is another example of your inability to reason and use logic.

    I stated that my patrilineal haplogroup was of the Wendish type – that is, that some Wend ~1200 years ago joined the Rus adventurers and settled in the East Slavic lands. My haplogroup is most common around Novgorod and Pskov (areas of Varangian settlement), then around the Baltic, with a small cluster around Kiev and Chernihiv. It fits the pattern of where Varangians were.

    You claim that this means that I identified as a Wend.

    You can’t even understand simple discussions and make ridiculous interpretation ms of what it have read in them, yet you dare make conclusions about historical texts you have read.

    Unless you equate Varangians with Wends

    Ivashka, who is both smarter and better informed than you, has stated and provided sources that Varangians were a mix of Norse and Wends. The fact that my Wendish haplogroup follows the Varangian settlement pattern corroborates what he wrote.

    I understand that such logic is beyond your ability, of course.

    • Replies: @Another Polish Perspective
    @AP


    You claim that this means that I identified as a Wend.
     
    Well, you have indeed identified as such - as you brought it up. I have never commented on your genetics, only about the hard to localize nation of Wends/Venetes. I also tried to show you that it is not a good idea to connect genetic data and obscure history & mythology: this is what happens when nominalism gets mixed with realism. But since you paid for this story to a genetic sequencing firm, you apparently want to believe it. And the most clever Ivashka "The Fool" has settled the matter: so be it, then!

    You can’t even understand simple discussions and make ridiculous interpretation ms of what it have read in them, yet you dare make conclusions about historical texts you have read.
     

    You wouldn't pass your PISA test, man. It is called hypotheses, hypotheses, man. This is what they taught me at university. How to make hypothetical yet grounded conclusions about historical texts, exactly!

    BTW, do you know how did I find my nick here? By contradicting a guy who claimed to represent "Polish Perspective". In a way, the situation partly repeats with you. But I must confess - I am a born contrarian, yes, and that is hidden within my nickname here;)

    However, I find you even less charitable than the original "Polish Perspective"... you really start to looking more and more authoritarian, exactly as Dimitry noticed.

    Replies: @AP

  955. @Another Polish Perspective
    @AP

    If you will go on like this, this is my last answer to you. I answer now mainly for the benefit of other participants of the forum, since you surely will not be convinced, as it was clear from other discussions with you.

    I am a professionally trained historian. If I do not research the field, I rely on the opinion of other trained historians. I know what is external critique of source, internal critique of source etc. If you would know something about history, you would notice traces of such critique in my arguments. For example, I engaged in internal critique of source, by detecting a real argumentation of gay culture concerning chastity & sin through comparison with interviews-based "Sodom" of Frederic Martel. By that, I established that what Kitowicz says may not be a fable, since at least that part seems to be true. Others, like "Cossacks have no wives" could be confirmed by simple observation at that time. Once again, if Kitowicz book, titled "Description of customs...", NOT " A fable..." was popular among his contemporaries, it means he most likely did not lie. BTW, at the roots of history are tales like that of Kitowicz - not histories written by academics. Moreover, sometimes legends turn out true - so it was with "Templars worship Baphomet" dark legend. It turned out to be true several years ago when authentic documents of Templar confessions during their trial were found. But you will surely claim that these confessions are invalid since they were made "under duress".

    Unlike you, I do not make claims without supporting them with arguments. Instead arguments, you have just labels. Since you do not use arguments - and even your argument from "the Ukrainian Academy of Sciences" is just a label here - you base your argumentation on generalizations... it is those generalizations [which I only made explicit] which are warrants four your conclusion, whether you like it or not.

    Here an example from Polish state radio of 2022 which apparently spreads a still received opinion that Kitowicz is indeed considered "a meticulous observateur and a precursor of ethnography". The article says that Kitowicz "Description of customs under the reign of August III" is a great historical source until today - unlike his "Memories", which again rises the credibility of Kitowicz who was thus aware of differences between his personal musings and descriptions of facts.

    https://www.polskieradio.pl/39/156/Artykul/2930092,Jedrzej-Kitowicz-uwazny-obserwator-obyczajow-i-prekursor-etnografii

    As the quarrel started with Zelenski's gay photo, one must notice the similarity of these rumours with those concerning Macron, who has neither denied nor confirmed them. It seems that such rumours are a kind of green beard, signalling homosexuality to those who want to believe them - which are other gays.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green-beard_effect

    Replies: @AP

    I answer now mainly for the benefit of other participants of the forum

    Indeed, please do continue demonstrating your inability to reason for other participants of the forum.

    Once again, if Kitowicz book, titled “Description of customs…”, NOT ” A fable…” was popular among his contemporaries, it means he most likely did not lie.

    His contemporaries being, like him, anti-Orthodox Catholic Poles whose people had recently been slaughtered and massacred by Orthodox Cossacks.

    Can a “trained historian” understand why fairytales about Cossacks engaging in homosexuality and bestiality might be popular among such people?

    Similarly, do you as a “trained historian” think that anti-Spanish fairytales told by their enemies the English and highly regarded by English must be true?

    Instead arguments, you have just labels. Since you do not use arguments – and even your argument from “the Ukrainian Academy of Sciences” is just a label here

    I summarized the conclusions of historians of the Institute of History of the Ukrainian Academy of Sciences that the source was an anti-Cossack bigot who used stories and anecdotes.

    Here an example from Polish state radio of 2022 which apparently spreads a still received opinion that Kitowicz is indeed considered “a meticulous observateur and a precursor of ethnography”. The article says that Kitowicz “Description of customs under the reign of August III” is a great historical source until today

    About customs outside of Poland, 100 years before Augustus’s reign?

    Moreover, sometimes legends turn out true – so it was with “Templars worship Baphomet” dark legend. It turned out to be true several years ago when authentic documents of Templar confessions during their trial were found. But you will surely claim that these confessions are invalid since they were made “under duress”

    Indeed that is someone who, unlike you, is capable of logic and reason.

    When the Templars confessed they also claimed that Satan appeared to them in a the form of a cat and conversed with them.

    You the “trained historian” finds this to be true.

    Do you the “trained historian” also claim that details and confessions of those tortured by NKVD were also true?

    • Replies: @Another Polish Perspective
    @AP


    About customs outside of Poland, 100 years before Augustus’s reign?
     
    That was the pre-industrial revolution time. Things stayed the same for a long time. Moreover, social sexual customs are one of the most impervious to time.

    You the “trained historian” finds this to be true.
     

    Not all Templars were tortured. Read something about Chinon parchment, plus they discovered a similar document few years ago in France - again: one document confirms therefore another. Templars have a great lobby - masons are one of their continuators, in terms of esoteric things - so you won't really hear about it much.
  956. @AP
    @Another Polish Perspective


    By the way, yesterday you identified as “Wend”, today you are an Ukrainian
     
    Hers is another example of your inability to reason and use logic.

    I stated that my patrilineal haplogroup was of the Wendish type - that is, that some Wend ~1200 years ago joined the Rus adventurers and settled in the East Slavic lands. My haplogroup is most common around Novgorod and Pskov (areas of Varangian settlement), then around the Baltic, with a small cluster around Kiev and Chernihiv. It fits the pattern of where Varangians were.

    You claim that this means that I identified as a Wend.

    You can’t even understand simple discussions and make ridiculous interpretation ms of what it have read in them, yet you dare make conclusions about historical texts you have read.

    Unless you equate Varangians with Wends

     

    Ivashka, who is both smarter and better informed than you, has stated and provided sources that Varangians were a mix of Norse and Wends. The fact that my Wendish haplogroup follows the Varangian settlement pattern corroborates what he wrote.

    I understand that such logic is beyond your ability, of course.

    Replies: @Another Polish Perspective

    You claim that this means that I identified as a Wend.

    Well, you have indeed identified as such – as you brought it up. I have never commented on your genetics, only about the hard to localize nation of Wends/Venetes. I also tried to show you that it is not a good idea to connect genetic data and obscure history & mythology: this is what happens when nominalism gets mixed with realism. But since you paid for this story to a genetic sequencing firm, you apparently want to believe it. And the most clever Ivashka “The Fool” has settled the matter: so be it, then!

    You can’t even understand simple discussions and make ridiculous interpretation ms of what it have read in them, yet you dare make conclusions about historical texts you have read.

    You wouldn’t pass your PISA test, man. It is called hypotheses, hypotheses, man. This is what they taught me at university. How to make hypothetical yet grounded conclusions about historical texts, exactly!

    BTW, do you know how did I find my nick here? By contradicting a guy who claimed to represent “Polish Perspective”. In a way, the situation partly repeats with you. But I must confess – I am a born contrarian, yes, and that is hidden within my nickname here;)

    However, I find you even less charitable than the original “Polish Perspective”… you really start to looking more and more authoritarian, exactly as Dimitry noticed.

    • Replies: @AP
    @Another Polish Perspective


    Well, you have indeed identified as such
     
    No, I did not. I stated that my paternal
    Haplogroup was identified as Wendish.

    You “reasoned” your way into interpreting this as me identifying as a Wend.

    Logic is hard for you, I know.

    I also tried to show you that it is not a good idea to connect genetic data and obscure history & mythology
     
    And you failed, given that in this case the genetic data matched the historical claims.

    It is called hypotheses, hypotheses
     
    Sadly, your relationship to hypotheses is comparable to your relationship with logic and reasoning, “trained historian.”

    I am a born contrarian
     
    Being a contrarian for contrarian’s sake is no better than conforming for the sake of conformity.

    Replies: @Another Polish Perspective

  957. @AP
    @Another Polish Perspective


    I answer now mainly for the benefit of other participants of the forum
     
    Indeed, please do continue demonstrating your inability to reason for other participants of the forum.

    Once again, if Kitowicz book, titled “Description of customs…”, NOT ” A fable…” was popular among his contemporaries, it means he most likely did not lie.
     
    His contemporaries being, like him, anti-Orthodox Catholic Poles whose people had recently been slaughtered and massacred by Orthodox Cossacks.

    Can a “trained historian” understand why fairytales about Cossacks engaging in homosexuality and bestiality might be popular among such people?

    Similarly, do you as a “trained historian” think that anti-Spanish fairytales told by their enemies the English and highly regarded by English must be true?

    Instead arguments, you have just labels. Since you do not use arguments – and even your argument from “the Ukrainian Academy of Sciences” is just a label here
     
    I summarized the conclusions of historians of the Institute of History of the Ukrainian Academy of Sciences that the source was an anti-Cossack bigot who used stories and anecdotes.

    Here an example from Polish state radio of 2022 which apparently spreads a still received opinion that Kitowicz is indeed considered “a meticulous observateur and a precursor of ethnography”. The article says that Kitowicz “Description of customs under the reign of August III” is a great historical source until today

     

    About customs outside of Poland, 100 years before Augustus’s reign?

    Moreover, sometimes legends turn out true – so it was with “Templars worship Baphomet” dark legend. It turned out to be true several years ago when authentic documents of Templar confessions during their trial were found. But you will surely claim that these confessions are invalid since they were made “under duress”
     
    Indeed that is someone who, unlike you, is capable of logic and reason.

    When the Templars confessed they also claimed that Satan appeared to them in a the form of a cat and conversed with them.

    You the “trained historian” finds this to be true.

    Do you the “trained historian” also claim that details and confessions of those tortured by NKVD were also true?

    Replies: @Another Polish Perspective

    About customs outside of Poland, 100 years before Augustus’s reign?

    That was the pre-industrial revolution time. Things stayed the same for a long time. Moreover, social sexual customs are one of the most impervious to time.

    You the “trained historian” finds this to be true.

    Not all Templars were tortured. Read something about Chinon parchment, plus they discovered a similar document few years ago in France – again: one document confirms therefore another. Templars have a great lobby – masons are one of their continuators, in terms of esoteric things – so you won’t really hear about it much.

  958. @Another Polish Perspective
    @AP


    You claim that this means that I identified as a Wend.
     
    Well, you have indeed identified as such - as you brought it up. I have never commented on your genetics, only about the hard to localize nation of Wends/Venetes. I also tried to show you that it is not a good idea to connect genetic data and obscure history & mythology: this is what happens when nominalism gets mixed with realism. But since you paid for this story to a genetic sequencing firm, you apparently want to believe it. And the most clever Ivashka "The Fool" has settled the matter: so be it, then!

    You can’t even understand simple discussions and make ridiculous interpretation ms of what it have read in them, yet you dare make conclusions about historical texts you have read.
     

    You wouldn't pass your PISA test, man. It is called hypotheses, hypotheses, man. This is what they taught me at university. How to make hypothetical yet grounded conclusions about historical texts, exactly!

    BTW, do you know how did I find my nick here? By contradicting a guy who claimed to represent "Polish Perspective". In a way, the situation partly repeats with you. But I must confess - I am a born contrarian, yes, and that is hidden within my nickname here;)

    However, I find you even less charitable than the original "Polish Perspective"... you really start to looking more and more authoritarian, exactly as Dimitry noticed.

    Replies: @AP

    Well, you have indeed identified as such

    No, I did not. I stated that my paternal
    Haplogroup was identified as Wendish.

    You “reasoned” your way into interpreting this as me identifying as a Wend.

    Logic is hard for you, I know.

    I also tried to show you that it is not a good idea to connect genetic data and obscure history & mythology

    And you failed, given that in this case the genetic data matched the historical claims.

    It is called hypotheses, hypotheses

    Sadly, your relationship to hypotheses is comparable to your relationship with logic and reasoning, “trained historian.”

    I am a born contrarian

    Being a contrarian for contrarian’s sake is no better than conforming for the sake of conformity.

    • Replies: @Another Polish Perspective
    @AP


    No, I did not. I stated that my paternal
    Haplogroup was identified as Wendish.

    You “reasoned” your way into interpreting this as me identifying as a Wend.
     

    Wends are cultural/historical/mythological category. If you say Wendish I am, you claim this heritage, especially as Wends were much larger category than your single clade.

    And you failed, given that in this case the genetic data matched the historical claims.
     
    There are no historical claims about Wends, they are just secondary name used by non-Wendish Germans for Slavic people who lived along them. It would be like calling Egyptians Maghrebi because they live in North Egypt. Taking into account that Wends were legendary Celtic people of Slavic lands too, it is all very confusing and the person in the company who decide to name the clade "Wendish" was either German or had no historical education at all. The clade spreads over EE but they decided to name it Wendish despite the presence of other R1a clades which were there and thus would automatically be called Wendish by the late (German) logic of this name, the only logic here being apparently the claim that later-Germanized Slavs had never been Slavs, but some "Wends". This is a name created for confusion, not for discernment. But you will never ask yourself why Slavic people should suddenly become "Wends", since you are not a contrarian. And you trust authority so much that if your firm says "Wends", there must be Wends!

    Being a contrarian for contrarian’s sake is no better than conforming for the sake of conformity.

     

    No. It gives you the advantage of active engagement with reality, questioning being the basic structure of science and knowledge. And I am only contrarian when received knowledge is somehow suspicious - which is, unfortunately, quite often.

    But as you like your comfortable reality where there is an answer for everything, and you consider me as "Fabelman" despite me being no Spielberg, I can only end with this beautiful song from one of movies of my childhood, "Podróże Pana Kleksa" (Journeys of Mr Kleks/Mr Blot), The Journey Into The Land Of Fables/ Podróż w krainę baśni... lyrics are almost as psychodelic as in "Yelllow submarine"... there is something about dancing elephants among pink mussels travelling along light circles...!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-pWOYzLjjI

    And the greatest hit of the movie, Meluzyna, about unrequited love of Meluzyna for some cancer (Pustorak):

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gSqj5UY6iUA

    Replies: @AP

  959. @AP
    @Another Polish Perspective


    Well, you have indeed identified as such
     
    No, I did not. I stated that my paternal
    Haplogroup was identified as Wendish.

    You “reasoned” your way into interpreting this as me identifying as a Wend.

    Logic is hard for you, I know.

    I also tried to show you that it is not a good idea to connect genetic data and obscure history & mythology
     
    And you failed, given that in this case the genetic data matched the historical claims.

    It is called hypotheses, hypotheses
     
    Sadly, your relationship to hypotheses is comparable to your relationship with logic and reasoning, “trained historian.”

    I am a born contrarian
     
    Being a contrarian for contrarian’s sake is no better than conforming for the sake of conformity.

    Replies: @Another Polish Perspective

    No, I did not. I stated that my paternal
    Haplogroup was identified as Wendish.

    You “reasoned” your way into interpreting this as me identifying as a Wend.

    Wends are cultural/historical/mythological category. If you say Wendish I am, you claim this heritage, especially as Wends were much larger category than your single clade.

    And you failed, given that in this case the genetic data matched the historical claims.

    There are no historical claims about Wends, they are just secondary name used by non-Wendish Germans for Slavic people who lived along them. It would be like calling Egyptians Maghrebi because they live in North Egypt. Taking into account that Wends were legendary Celtic people of Slavic lands too, it is all very confusing and the person in the company who decide to name the clade “Wendish” was either German or had no historical education at all. The clade spreads over EE but they decided to name it Wendish despite the presence of other R1a clades which were there and thus would automatically be called Wendish by the late (German) logic of this name, the only logic here being apparently the claim that later-Germanized Slavs had never been Slavs, but some “Wends”. This is a name created for confusion, not for discernment. But you will never ask yourself why Slavic people should suddenly become “Wends”, since you are not a contrarian. And you trust authority so much that if your firm says “Wends”, there must be Wends!

    Being a contrarian for contrarian’s sake is no better than conforming for the sake of conformity.

    No. It gives you the advantage of active engagement with reality, questioning being the basic structure of science and knowledge. And I am only contrarian when received knowledge is somehow suspicious – which is, unfortunately, quite often.

    But as you like your comfortable reality where there is an answer for everything, and you consider me as “Fabelman” despite me being no Spielberg, I can only end with this beautiful song from one of movies of my childhood, “Podróże Pana Kleksa” (Journeys of Mr Kleks/Mr Blot), The Journey Into The Land Of Fables/ Podróż w krainę baśni… lyrics are almost as psychodelic as in “Yelllow submarine”… there is something about dancing elephants among pink mussels travelling along light circles…!

    And the greatest hit of the movie, Meluzyna, about unrequited love of Meluzyna for some cancer (Pustorak):

    • Replies: @AP
    @Another Polish Perspective


    "No, I did not. I stated that my paternal
    Haplogroup was identified as Wendish.

    You “reasoned” your way into interpreting this as me identifying as a Wend."

    Wends are cultural/historical/mythological category. If you say Wendish I am, you claim this heritage,
     
    Already three times I have explained to you that I never claimed to be a Wend, and yet you insist I did and do.

    If you can't even understand that and judge it properly, what hope do you have to understand anything else?

    But as you like your comfortable reality where there is an answer for everything, and you consider me as “Fabelman” despite me being no Spielberg, I can only end with this beautiful song from one of movies of my childhood, “Podróże Pana Kleksa
     
    Okay, the videos were charming, thank you. You have redeemed yourself somewhat.
  960. @Another Polish Perspective
    @Mr. Hack

    https://www.unz.com/article/my-journey-to-the-homosexual-question/

    There has been an article on homosexuality recently on unz, with some heated comments how this is prevalent among WNs. Strangely, this seems to be a touchy subject here too, with some commenters tacitly accepting Maennerbunde as so natural that they can't simply produce any questions. I even said that already a long time ago, on my own, I once wondered about lack of historical relations about Cossacks wives, their marriage customs etc. However, it seems that only me here asked once such a question. That I wasn't shy to ask such a question does not mean I am an expert on homosexuality; much more it means how such subjects are simply not investigated, homosexuality being tacitly accepted for what it simply claims to be - a natural trait, equally distributed in random way in any population.

    Aside from the simple denial offered by AP, another assumption - which you seem to offer in your question about husaria, is that [rampant] homosexuality must arise simply by the power of nature among men, notwithstanding any social, moral or religious bans on it [since you are a religious person, I find such a claim of professed sin rather strange on your part], for example among Hussaria - which are no relations of, at least known to me - I even googled now "Husaria i homoseksualizm w historii" and got just 2 pages of irrelevant hits!

    As for hussars, in my comment no. 939 I said


    Yet [Cossacks] unlike Polish voluntary military like husaria, they don’t seem to have steady relationships or families or homes to which they would return every year – which is strange.


     

    Husaria was recruited among well-to-do nobles, who had families and lands, since they themselves paid for their weaponry and horses, not a state. It was a voluntary organization, a kind of trained militia/citizen army - as nobles, they couldn't be executed by their commanders for desertion etc. The command couldn't do much to enforce their discipline. Unless there was a war, they weren't serving 365 days in year, they spent time at home too. Often they served for 2-3 years, then made a pause at home for several years, to serve again for a couple of years.

    Cossacks, on the other hand, apparently spent time mostly among themselves, besides what was needed to create a competent fighting organization.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @Mr. Hack

    The cossacks within Ukraine were not a homogenous “one size fits all” sociological caste. There were registered cossacks often serving the Polish king. Also town cossacks defending larger towns often in the employ of the local governor or wealthy burghers. There were cossacks that strictly served in the private military formations of wealthy landowners, that could encompass up to 3,000 – 6000 individuals. And of course there were the zaporozhian cossacks that were the freest among the free.
    These individuals were mostly made up of cossacks that chose to live in the southern lands that were furthest away from governmental structures, and therefore banded together voluntarily in order to provide themselves a defense from tartar slave raiders. Although there was a small number that lived year around at the various siches, the vast majority would only serve there for a few months out of the year, returning home to be with their wives and families to take care of their lands and livestock.

    I would count somebody like Guillaume Le Vasseur de Beauplan, a French cartographer who spent more than 20 years living among the Ukrainian cossacks, who understood their lifestyle intimately and who indeed wrote of them in great detail, with no axe to grind with anybody about their activities, as being a primary and very important source for judging their lifestyle choices. Yet, he never mentions any homosexual activity that he witnessed or heard about among this warrior class?

  961. @songbird
    @Coconuts


    Unfortunately the era of mass immigration into Europe is correlating with a steady fall in the numbers of the historic majority ethnic groups.
     
    IMO, this is what makes it an existential problem. It's not a question of all non-Euros coordinating to go Haitian Revolution on us, or one that especially hates us swiping the others from the field. The real problem is that their presence results in a state that reacts hyper-aggressively and utterly ruthlessly to throw up every possible obstacle to creating a culture that could solve the plummeting TFR of Euros.

    If there is ever any attempt at pro-natalism, it is obvious that they won't allow any specific program to try to increase the TFR of Euros. That destroys the greatest tools, cultural adaptation and appeal to ethnos. Leaves only financial inducements which will obviously be siphoned off by parasitical and oppositional groups, to grow their own numbers further.

    Don't see a lot of hope. The two standouts seem to be Hungary and Denmark. Hungary might be on the bubble because the entire West is trying to undermine Orban. Denmark has shut its doors, but seems to have tried to adopt a quasi-Singaporean solution, and I see this as very problematic. (Singapore is just an IQ-shredder, with hardly any culture). In any case, neither country has scale, and both seem capable of being outcompeted or overrun by bigger but less functional states.

    Only country with any scale that I ever had any hope for was Poland. MacGregor said that it could takeover Germany in a week. (Probably it was meant to be hyperbole, but with a grain of truth.) Unfortunately, Poland seems to be taking in >100,000 non-Euro migrants/year. I don't have any hope for it anymore. And there seems to be zero other contenders.

    Maybe, that leaves China? But I don't know if they would operate that altruistically as to help Europeans, especially when it would probably only create political problems for them elsewhere, or that they might be their only major strategic threat.

    Replies: @Coconuts

    The real problem is that their presence results in a state that reacts hyper-aggressively and utterly ruthlessly to throw up every possible obstacle to creating a culture that could solve the plummeting TFR of Euros.

    Weirdly one positive aspect of the way they are racialising everything at the moment could be that it opens the door politically to something like this. This is if politicians who are not friendly to progressivism can make some use of these ‘group disparity’ tropes at some time in the future. Though this happening is definitely not certain.

    Another blackpilling aspect is that there are powerful subgroups within the Euro majorities who have other reasons for ignoring the TFR issue, like liberal feminists and the LGBT lobby. They seem to have a tendency to resist any pro-natalist developments as part of their fight against patriarchy and heteronormativity.

    The ethnic minority and immigrant communities both tend to be more resistant to these influences, and the Euro feminists and LGBT don’t seem to make as much effort to influence and control their customs either. This may help them sustain their higher fertility rate.

    Lastly there is some HBD angle on the way the largest falls in fertility are among the Euro middle classes, this may create some additional pull factor in favour of immigration to replace this group.

    I think at the moment enough people are still doing too well for momentum to develop for some political force to confront all these issues and the associated lobby groups, so the outlook is not good, at least short/medium term. Longer term the problems associated with a lot of people having no families or very small families may get more pronounced, where people don’t have relatives to care and look out for them in old age, besides all the other issues linked to major demographic change.

    • Agree: songbird
  962. @Another Polish Perspective
    @Mr. Hack

    https://www.unz.com/article/my-journey-to-the-homosexual-question/

    There has been an article on homosexuality recently on unz, with some heated comments how this is prevalent among WNs. Strangely, this seems to be a touchy subject here too, with some commenters tacitly accepting Maennerbunde as so natural that they can't simply produce any questions. I even said that already a long time ago, on my own, I once wondered about lack of historical relations about Cossacks wives, their marriage customs etc. However, it seems that only me here asked once such a question. That I wasn't shy to ask such a question does not mean I am an expert on homosexuality; much more it means how such subjects are simply not investigated, homosexuality being tacitly accepted for what it simply claims to be - a natural trait, equally distributed in random way in any population.

    Aside from the simple denial offered by AP, another assumption - which you seem to offer in your question about husaria, is that [rampant] homosexuality must arise simply by the power of nature among men, notwithstanding any social, moral or religious bans on it [since you are a religious person, I find such a claim of professed sin rather strange on your part], for example among Hussaria - which are no relations of, at least known to me - I even googled now "Husaria i homoseksualizm w historii" and got just 2 pages of irrelevant hits!

    As for hussars, in my comment no. 939 I said


    Yet [Cossacks] unlike Polish voluntary military like husaria, they don’t seem to have steady relationships or families or homes to which they would return every year – which is strange.


     

    Husaria was recruited among well-to-do nobles, who had families and lands, since they themselves paid for their weaponry and horses, not a state. It was a voluntary organization, a kind of trained militia/citizen army - as nobles, they couldn't be executed by their commanders for desertion etc. The command couldn't do much to enforce their discipline. Unless there was a war, they weren't serving 365 days in year, they spent time at home too. Often they served for 2-3 years, then made a pause at home for several years, to serve again for a couple of years.

    Cossacks, on the other hand, apparently spent time mostly among themselves, besides what was needed to create a competent fighting organization.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @Mr. Hack

    The cossacks within Ukraine were not a homogenous “one size fits all” sociological caste. There were registered cossacks often serving the Polish king. Also town cossacks defending larger towns often in the employ of the local governor or wealthy burghers. There were cossacks that strictly served in the private military formations of wealthy landowners, that could encompass up to 3,000 – 6000 individuals. And of course there were the zaporozhian cossacks that were the freest among the free.

    These individuals were mostly made up of cossacks that chose to live in the southern lands that were furthest away from governmental structures, and therefore banded together voluntarily in order to provide themselves a defense from tartar slave raiders. Although there was a small number that lived year around at the various siches, the vast majority would only serve there for a few months out of the year, returning home to be with their wives and families to take care of their lands and livestock.

    I would count somebody like Guillaume Le Vasseur de Beauplan, a French cartographer who spent more than 20 years living among the Ukrainian cossacks, who understood their lifestyle intimately and who indeed wrote of them in great detail, with no axe to grind with anybody about their activities, as being a primary and very important source for judging their lifestyle choices. Yet, he never mentions any homosexual activity that he witnessed or heard about among this warrior class?

    • Replies: @Another Polish Perspective
    @Mr. Hack

    What you write about different Cossack formations is true (I have already mentioned Register Cossacks), even if they were sometimes called "hajducy" when in private service of magnates. "Kozak" sometimes means a light military formation, sometimes it is used in national terms (mostly about Zaporozhian Cossacks), and sometimes in both senses.

    Kitowicz meant Sicz Zaporoska (Zaporozhian Cossacks). That was the place where "wild" Cossacks lived, and they lived there in their barracks organized after kurzeń.

    The French guy who built ant-Cossack Kudak - the fortress which was to keep them inside Ukraine - was just about 15 years in Ukraine, and unlike some foreigners, returned to France, so he can't be said to know Polish Ukraine intimately- that would probably be an exaggeration. Well, if he did, maybe he was a gay too. Probably writing about homosexuality couldn't be so safe for him in the way it was for Kitowicz, who was a priest. Anyway, as the old adage says "The lack of evidence is not the evidence of absence".

    But even Wikipedia confirms Kitowicz (at least partly) when it says that women were banned there, as if Sicz were Mount Athos:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zaporozhian_Sich

    The Cossacks formed a society (hromada) that consisted of "kurins" (each with several hundred Cossacks). A Cossack military court severely punished violence and stealing among compatriots, the bringing of women to the Sich, the consumption of alcohol in periods of conflict, and other offenses.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @AP

  963. @Mr. Hack
    @Another Polish Perspective

    The cossacks within Ukraine were not a homogenous "one size fits all" sociological caste. There were registered cossacks often serving the Polish king. Also town cossacks defending larger towns often in the employ of the local governor or wealthy burghers. There were cossacks that strictly served in the private military formations of wealthy landowners, that could encompass up to 3,000 - 6000 individuals. And of course there were the zaporozhian cossacks that were the freest among the free.

    These individuals were mostly made up of cossacks that chose to live in the southern lands that were furthest away from governmental structures, and therefore banded together voluntarily in order to provide themselves a defense from tartar slave raiders. Although there was a small number that lived year around at the various siches, the vast majority would only serve there for a few months out of the year, returning home to be with their wives and families to take care of their lands and livestock.

    I would count somebody like Guillaume Le Vasseur de Beauplan, a French cartographer who spent more than 20 years living among the Ukrainian cossacks, who understood their lifestyle intimately and who indeed wrote of them in great detail, with no axe to grind with anybody about their activities, as being a primary and very important source for judging their lifestyle choices. Yet, he never mentions any homosexual activity that he witnessed or heard about among this warrior class?

    Replies: @Another Polish Perspective

    What you write about different Cossack formations is true (I have already mentioned Register Cossacks), even if they were sometimes called “hajducy” when in private service of magnates. “Kozak” sometimes means a light military formation, sometimes it is used in national terms (mostly about Zaporozhian Cossacks), and sometimes in both senses.

    Kitowicz meant Sicz Zaporoska (Zaporozhian Cossacks). That was the place where “wild” Cossacks lived, and they lived there in their barracks organized after kurzeń.

    The French guy who built ant-Cossack Kudak – the fortress which was to keep them inside Ukraine – was just about 15 years in Ukraine, and unlike some foreigners, returned to France, so he can’t be said to know Polish Ukraine intimately- that would probably be an exaggeration. Well, if he did, maybe he was a gay too. Probably writing about homosexuality couldn’t be so safe for him in the way it was for Kitowicz, who was a priest. Anyway, as the old adage says “The lack of evidence is not the evidence of absence”.

    But even Wikipedia confirms Kitowicz (at least partly) when it says that women were banned there, as if Sicz were Mount Athos:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zaporozhian_Sich

    The Cossacks formed a society (hromada) that consisted of “kurins” (each with several hundred Cossacks). A Cossack military court severely punished violence and stealing among compatriots, the bringing of women to the Sich, the consumption of alcohol in periods of conflict, and other offenses.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @Another Polish Perspective

    If you stitch together all of your various theories into one...you come up with:


    “The lack of evidence is not the evidence of absence”.
     
    Most certainly, the lack of evidence is not either the proof of anything at all"

    Well, if he did, maybe he was a gay too.
     
    With you, it always seems "maybe, maybe, maybe". You like to throw around all sorts of unsubstantiated fantasies. I actuall thought higher of you at one time. :-(

    A far as Kitowicz being more believable than Beauplan about Ukrainian cossack lifestyles etc, you seem to be rather naive about Polish clergy and the propensity of some within its ranks to hide their sexual orientation under their robes:

    https://www.ilgrandecolibri.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/LGBT-cartoons-11.jpg

    Replies: @Another Polish Perspective, @Another Polish Perspective

    , @AP
    @Another Polish Perspective

    The Frenchman lived among the Cossacks for 15-20 years, wrote about what he saw, and didn't mention rampant homosexuality and bestiality.

    The Polish priest, whose people have been slaughtered by Cossacks (thus he would be motivated to slander them), didn't living among them, and repeated old stories about them engaging in those sex acts.

    It's rather logical to conclude that the first source is more credible than Kitowicz, whose information was second-hand (or third-hand) and who was motivated to slander the Cossacks.


    But even Wikipedia confirms Kitowicz (at least partly) when it says that women were banned there, as if Sicz were Mount Athos
     
    Wikipedia also states:

    In times of peace, Cossacks were engaged in their occupations, living with their families, studying strategy, languages and educating recruits.

    :::::::::::::::

    The Zaporozhian Cossacks were exiled to Romania with their families, and some of their descendants still live there. Others moved to Kuban.

    Replies: @Another Polish Perspective

  964. @LatW
    @Dmitry


    Here Be Dragon [..] similar trauma from Ukraine, as both have the same hatred of nationalism.

    “Superhero (or supervillain) origin story” of Here Be Dragon were those fights with Ukrainian villagers.
    https://www.unz.com/akarlin/open-thread-190-russia-ukraine/#comment-5389482

     

    That was a good quote, thanks for reposting it. I understand those dynamics (I overheard about those brawls from back in the day from my dad once, although he wasn't involved in those much and the ethnicity dynamics were slightly different). Those were petty turf wars, but this Dragon dude, being part Jewish, is putting the nationalist element in there. Instead he should've manned up. The village was good - you get to have plenty of sun and exercise, eat good organic home grown food, work physically, but still have plenty of rest. It is good to balance that with the city life. It's best to take from both worlds (city and village). His approach must have been too one sided.

    By the way, he does give a good description of the old Slavic Maslenitsa tradition of "stenka na stenku". This tradition is a bit wild, but there are rules. I saw that this tradition is live and well in Russia and young boys are involved with it, and they are trained to do it properly now (not the way these otmorozkis apparently used to do it back in the day with boi bez pravil). So things are getting better in some ways, old traditions live on.

    I think they could still be destroyed by artillery.
     
    Well, they shouldn't be sent into a large offensive without air support, that would be stupid. All those vehicles, including expensive tanks, would just get destroyed. They need attack helicopters.

    Unless you want the postsoviet border conflict with the poorest country in Europe, to look like the Iran-Iraq war (already too late – it looks like the Iran-Iraq war).
     
    This is just superstition, but sometimes it looks like there is something sitting in the Kremlin who wants this, almost something infernal. I don't know if this is true or fake, but there was a Putin quite circulating around recently (in UA sources) where he said about the population of Belgorod "They are [assimilated] Ukrainians there too so let them just kill each other".

    Even if he wanted to invade Ukraine, Prokhorov would have been more successful. Yeltsin would have been more successful. If you want to win the postsoviet border conflicts, you would use pro-Western rhetoric and diplomatic ambiguity.
     
    You could fight only a limited war that way because even the lukewarm West can only stomach as much. They probably could've stomached some bloodless annexation of parts of Donbas. Even with "diplomatic ambiguity" you can only go so far.

    Although also a dictator who is focused on postsoviet border conflict instead of internal development, A Aliev is an example of the more disciplined and strategic leader than Putin.
     
    I wouldn't say Aliev is not focused on internal development, Baku looks good. Azeris also stick to their traditions which keeps them strong.

    He prepares the diplomatic space before the war. Instead of valueless anti-Western rhetoric for years, invited NATO for exercises.
     
    I think his ambitions are somewhat more realistic in that conflict. Besides Russia used to visit with NATO as well. Russian military visited the Latvian main military base not too long before the war.
    Not sure there is much point in it, but it was going on.

    Replies: @Dmitry

    offensive without air support, that would be stupid. All those vehicles, including expensive tanks, would just get destroyed

    Both sides don’t have air dominance and have difficulty flying for air support.

    Bradley has better optics, longer range missiles, than Soviet vehicles. So, they will have advantage in the direct fire against. But they will be vulnerable for indirect fire from artillery, which has been the main force in the war.

    But NATO countries are now giving Ukraine modern artillery systems and radars. For example, there is a French system called “CAESAR” which they are stocking for Ukraine. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19MvDVlpX_8.

    Although the number of modern weapons they give to Ukraine is small (in larger quantities they give older 1970s equipment), as the war continues, Ukraine will receive such kind of qualitative advances. It seems like NATO countries don’t want to give too many weapons to Ukraine at the same time though.

    he should’ve manned up. The village was good

    If I remember scrolling one of the AP/Here Be Dragon discussions (those discussions were a bit mentally ill from both sides, to it mildly). And it was about his favorite friend was killed by those Ukrainian villagers.
    https://www.unz.com/akarlin/open-thread-192/#comment-5451545

    Although his stories often mixed with the Kremlin propaganda and other crazy things. Still, there is real experience and tragedy there. https://www.unz.com/akarlin/open-thread-192/#comment-5451545

    c Maslenitsa tradition of “stenka na stenku”. This tradition is a bit wild, but there are rules. I saw that this tradition is live and well in Russia

    You are talking about Russia today, some hobbyists arranging for “historical re-enactment” in the village festival. You like this for aesthetic reasons etc. It would be popular on Instagram under hashtag “cottagecore”. But unless I misinterpret (his posts were written in confusing way), I think he was just talking about real fights.

    Being attacked by hooligans, is not cottagecore. It seems to me the problem for him, was living near hooligans, which he associates to their specific nationality. It’s the same thing Americans like Steve Sailer are worried about in Los Angeles, they don’t want to be beaten.

    Whether there is a national aspect to why he was beaten because he wasn’t speaking Ukrainian dialect? It’s not always clear. Some people claimed the “knock out game” in America is nationally motivated violence. Americans are beaten by African American gangs and then become racist against African Americans. Here Be Dragon was beaten by Ukrainian gangs and is now racist against Ukrainians.

    There were quite few parts of the USSR and later with those problems. In most regions there no national aspect for violence, but in some zones the violence can have nationalism as an additional layer (as in the knock-out game could be in Brooklyn has some national disharmony related to it). And this ordinary violence has been sometimes the sociological prelude before real wars (e.g. Azerbaijan vs Armenia).

    something sitting in the Kremlin who wants something infernal

    It could be explained by the Greek tragedy, between hubris and nemesis. Or less dramatically the gambler in the casino with the “sunk costs”. Or frog with softly changing water temperature.

    But there can be also the overlapping motives. For example, Putin’s government will increase control by reducing the proportion of men in the 20s age group, so this can be viewed as not fully negative by them.

    This is common many times in history, that the rulers want to reduce the number of young men in the society. War is useful for rulers to reduce the proportion of young men, reducing the revolutionary potential of the population.

    In the milder version, Lukashenko is very happy to encourage the young people in Belarus to emigrate, as the older population is more stable to control.

    Aliev is not focused on internal development, Baku looks good.

    That is often the postsoviet scam, like in Moscow, they throw the country’s money on it, so it becomes now like a fake Switzerland that distracts from the need for forensic accountants. As the gangster invests to have very shiny shoes. Or a company has expensive corporate events. It effects the primitive apes’ brains that sees “money and power”.

    When you saw something unbalanced like that, you really want to have the corporate accountants to see what they are really doing with the money. If they throw all this money in the center of the city, you should be asking more to see the accountant’s analysis.

    Just like mafia wearing very expensive suits, is not necessarily indication of a good accounting.

    traditions which keeps them strong.

    Well, they have a competent army, so it’s not analogous for all the postsoviet countries. They have a competent multi-vector external policy.

    Russia used to visit with NATO as well. Russian military visited the Latvian main military base not too long before

    There has been almost 20 years of anti-Western rhetoric. It’s not multi-vector policy. With a pro-Western leader like Prokhorov, there would have been more diplomatic (and then military) space for winning the postsoviet border conflicts. Of course, it would be better not to enter those border conflicts. It’s the 21st century, a government working for people would focus on internal development, not bombing your neighbors.

    In Russia, the last 20 years should have been especially an emergency time for internal development and diversifying, as the demand for oil will peak by the 2030s years.

    • Replies: @LatW
    @Dmitry


    And it was about his favorite friend was killed by those Ukrainian villagers.
    https://www.unz.com/akarlin/open-thread-192/#comment-5451545
     
    To be honest, I did not read most of his posts (while interesting, they seemed just too toxic, I knew that his posts would trigger me to respond and then leave me completely drained, so I didn't muster up the strength to go against him and frankly couldn't commit the time).

    However, I did get a glimpse of his village experience and found those episodes telling and even somewhat reminiscent of what I had been told back in the day. His experience sounds much worse and, frankly, less civilized than what was going on in the Baltic villages. Because it was ethnically homogenous there (mostly), one village fought another village. Also, there was resentment against the "city people" (just like Dragon explained). To which I would respond "А зря!" - "In vain". Because until the 1990s wave of alcoholism, they were actually in better shape and had it better. So I can imagine how much healthier and more robust those Ukrainians from the village were. I think this Dragon guy may have been sitting all day playing guitar and smoking (and then acting pretentious). Of course, he got his ass kicked.

    Sorry to be blunt, but the Jewish people have been confined to the city too much. I know it's not their fault because the village Jews were also decimated (but even in the village the Jews typically chose non-physically heavy professions, such as trading - in and of itself it's not bad, but it would give them a disadvantage in some ways). Btw, have you noticed that the Jews in Israel are way more vigorous and physically tough than the EE Jews...? I hope this doesn't offend you, it's just something to keep in mind when you talk about this Dragon guy's grievances.

    Replies: @Dmitry

    , @LatW
    @Dmitry


    You are talking about Russia today, some hobbyists arranging for “historical re-enactment” in the village festival. You like this for aesthetic reasons etc.
     
    Right. But it's also good because it's a kind of a sport, often outside in fresh air, which keeps them healthy and gives them some confidence. They can also hang out with their community, light a fire and listen to nice music. It's a good bonding experience for everyone.
    , @LatW
    @Dmitry


    With a pro-Western leader like Prokhorov, there would have been more diplomatic (and then military) space for winning the postsoviet border conflicts. Of course, it would be better not to enter those border conflicts. It’s the 21st century, a government working for people would focus on internal development, not bombing your neighbors.
     
    The issues with neighbors would not be as deep or acutely negative with someone like Prokhorov. That is, if he were able to control the whole system. In fact, he may even seem a bit too neo-liberal, imo. But things would be much easier and there would be less conflict. But maybe I'm wrong and there is something deeper, underlying, that doesn't allow to have harmony. Also, often outsiders want a liberal in neighboring countries, but a nationalist at home.

    Replies: @Dmitry

  965. @Another Polish Perspective
    @Mr. Hack

    What you write about different Cossack formations is true (I have already mentioned Register Cossacks), even if they were sometimes called "hajducy" when in private service of magnates. "Kozak" sometimes means a light military formation, sometimes it is used in national terms (mostly about Zaporozhian Cossacks), and sometimes in both senses.

    Kitowicz meant Sicz Zaporoska (Zaporozhian Cossacks). That was the place where "wild" Cossacks lived, and they lived there in their barracks organized after kurzeń.

    The French guy who built ant-Cossack Kudak - the fortress which was to keep them inside Ukraine - was just about 15 years in Ukraine, and unlike some foreigners, returned to France, so he can't be said to know Polish Ukraine intimately- that would probably be an exaggeration. Well, if he did, maybe he was a gay too. Probably writing about homosexuality couldn't be so safe for him in the way it was for Kitowicz, who was a priest. Anyway, as the old adage says "The lack of evidence is not the evidence of absence".

    But even Wikipedia confirms Kitowicz (at least partly) when it says that women were banned there, as if Sicz were Mount Athos:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zaporozhian_Sich

    The Cossacks formed a society (hromada) that consisted of "kurins" (each with several hundred Cossacks). A Cossack military court severely punished violence and stealing among compatriots, the bringing of women to the Sich, the consumption of alcohol in periods of conflict, and other offenses.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @AP

    If you stitch together all of your various theories into one…you come up with:

    “The lack of evidence is not the evidence of absence”.

    Most certainly, the lack of evidence is not either the proof of anything at all”

    Well, if he did, maybe he was a gay too.

    With you, it always seems “maybe, maybe, maybe”. You like to throw around all sorts of unsubstantiated fantasies. I actuall thought higher of you at one time. 🙁

    A far as Kitowicz being more believable than Beauplan about Ukrainian cossack lifestyles etc, you seem to be rather naive about Polish clergy and the propensity of some within its ranks to hide their sexual orientation under their robes:

    • Replies: @Another Polish Perspective
    @Mr. Hack

    Kitowicz became a priest when he was 50. It would be impossible today. Clergy was a career for the well-to-do at that time, it was a bit different to what is now. It was probably easier for Kitowicz to publish these "unkind" things about Cossacks as a clergyman, since he could claim "I am just stigmatizing a sin".


    If you stitch together all of your various theories into one…you come up with:
     
    And this is what historian job is: to put things together to check whether there is some picture behind them. You cannot put forward one source without mention of X to claim X does not exist. This is really naïve.

    There is only circumstantial evidence here, but there is more of it for higher than usual level of homosexuality in Sicz than against it. Above all no one disputed Kitowicz claims during his time - since his thesis was controversial, it should have been disputed as vehemently as here if obviously untrue. But there was no refutation.

    Replies: @AP

    , @Another Polish Perspective
    @Mr. Hack


    With you, it always seems “maybe, maybe, maybe”. You like to throw around all sorts of unsubstantiated fantasies. I actuall thought higher of you at one time.
     
    "Likely, More Likely, Most Likely" is history.
    I thought you are a nice Ukrainian but you seem to be as unable to own Ukrainian mistakes/problems as AP clearly is. You are a religious person, but now you are ready to throw Kitowicz clerical reputation under the bus, into the arms of sin - unreasonably insinuating (since there are no arguments) that he was some self-hating closeted gay projecting on other gays - just to save leaking reputations of Zaporozhian Cossacks. This is not Christian. This is nationalist. I see you are first Ukrainian, and later Christian.

    Previously you responded to my argument from Husaria organisation with a photo of some Polish gay LARPing as hussar during "Equality Parade" in Warsaw. What level of discussion is this ?!
    This is getting ridiculous.

    Replies: @Another Polish Perspective, @Mr. Hack

  966. @Mr. Hack
    @Another Polish Perspective

    If you stitch together all of your various theories into one...you come up with:


    “The lack of evidence is not the evidence of absence”.
     
    Most certainly, the lack of evidence is not either the proof of anything at all"

    Well, if he did, maybe he was a gay too.
     
    With you, it always seems "maybe, maybe, maybe". You like to throw around all sorts of unsubstantiated fantasies. I actuall thought higher of you at one time. :-(

    A far as Kitowicz being more believable than Beauplan about Ukrainian cossack lifestyles etc, you seem to be rather naive about Polish clergy and the propensity of some within its ranks to hide their sexual orientation under their robes:

    https://www.ilgrandecolibri.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/LGBT-cartoons-11.jpg

    Replies: @Another Polish Perspective, @Another Polish Perspective

    Kitowicz became a priest when he was 50. It would be impossible today. Clergy was a career for the well-to-do at that time, it was a bit different to what is now. It was probably easier for Kitowicz to publish these “unkind” things about Cossacks as a clergyman, since he could claim “I am just stigmatizing a sin”.

    If you stitch together all of your various theories into one…you come up with:

    And this is what historian job is: to put things together to check whether there is some picture behind them. You cannot put forward one source without mention of X to claim X does not exist. This is really naïve.

    There is only circumstantial evidence here, but there is more of it for higher than usual level of homosexuality in Sicz than against it. Above all no one disputed Kitowicz claims during his time – since his thesis was controversial, it should have been disputed as vehemently as here if obviously untrue. But there was no refutation.

    • Replies: @AP
    @Another Polish Perspective


    Above all no one disputed Kitowicz claims during his time – since his thesis was controversial, it should have been disputed as vehemently as here if obviously untrue. But there was no refutation.
     
    Why would Polish Catholics, whose people were brutally slaughtered by Cossacks, dispute the dark fairytales about Cossacks engaging in bestiality and homosexuality?
  967. @Mr. Hack
    @Another Polish Perspective

    If you stitch together all of your various theories into one...you come up with:


    “The lack of evidence is not the evidence of absence”.
     
    Most certainly, the lack of evidence is not either the proof of anything at all"

    Well, if he did, maybe he was a gay too.
     
    With you, it always seems "maybe, maybe, maybe". You like to throw around all sorts of unsubstantiated fantasies. I actuall thought higher of you at one time. :-(

    A far as Kitowicz being more believable than Beauplan about Ukrainian cossack lifestyles etc, you seem to be rather naive about Polish clergy and the propensity of some within its ranks to hide their sexual orientation under their robes:

    https://www.ilgrandecolibri.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/LGBT-cartoons-11.jpg

    Replies: @Another Polish Perspective, @Another Polish Perspective

    With you, it always seems “maybe, maybe, maybe”. You like to throw around all sorts of unsubstantiated fantasies. I actuall thought higher of you at one time.

    “Likely, More Likely, Most Likely” is history.
    I thought you are a nice Ukrainian but you seem to be as unable to own Ukrainian mistakes/problems as AP clearly is. You are a religious person, but now you are ready to throw Kitowicz clerical reputation under the bus, into the arms of sin – unreasonably insinuating (since there are no arguments) that he was some self-hating closeted gay projecting on other gays – just to save leaking reputations of Zaporozhian Cossacks. This is not Christian. This is nationalist. I see you are first Ukrainian, and later Christian.

    Previously you responded to my argument from Husaria organisation with a photo of some Polish gay LARPing as hussar during “Equality Parade” in Warsaw. What level of discussion is this ?!
    This is getting ridiculous.

    • Replies: @Another Polish Perspective
    @Another Polish Perspective

    Actually it should be:
    "that he was some self-hating closeted gay projecting on other straights his homosexuality"

    Well, this is what you are suggesting now: an old gay Kitowicz projected on straight Cossacks and only on straight Cossacks his homosexualism to make them odious to other heteros. How this is logical, I don't know.

    Elaborate construction, elaborate - and much more than mine.

    Replies: @LatW

    , @Mr. Hack
    @Another Polish Perspective

    Look, just because I'm not willing to support your unproven theory that the Ukrainian Zaporizhian Hoste had a higher proportion of homosexuals within its ranks then did other military formations of the era, all based on the Ukrainophobic rants of one old Polish priest, does not make me either a Ukrainian nationalist nor a reprobate Christian. It's up to you to make a more substantial case before anybody here or anywhere else will believe you. I'll agree with you here though:


    This is getting ridiculous.

     

  968. @Another Polish Perspective
    @Mr. Hack


    With you, it always seems “maybe, maybe, maybe”. You like to throw around all sorts of unsubstantiated fantasies. I actuall thought higher of you at one time.
     
    "Likely, More Likely, Most Likely" is history.
    I thought you are a nice Ukrainian but you seem to be as unable to own Ukrainian mistakes/problems as AP clearly is. You are a religious person, but now you are ready to throw Kitowicz clerical reputation under the bus, into the arms of sin - unreasonably insinuating (since there are no arguments) that he was some self-hating closeted gay projecting on other gays - just to save leaking reputations of Zaporozhian Cossacks. This is not Christian. This is nationalist. I see you are first Ukrainian, and later Christian.

    Previously you responded to my argument from Husaria organisation with a photo of some Polish gay LARPing as hussar during "Equality Parade" in Warsaw. What level of discussion is this ?!
    This is getting ridiculous.

    Replies: @Another Polish Perspective, @Mr. Hack

    Actually it should be:
    “that he was some self-hating closeted gay projecting on other straights his homosexuality”

    Well, this is what you are suggesting now: an old gay Kitowicz projected on straight Cossacks and only on straight Cossacks his homosexualism to make them odious to other heteros. How this is logical, I don’t know.

    Elaborate construction, elaborate – and much more than mine.

    • Replies: @LatW
    @Another Polish Perspective

    Btw, I didn't mean to discredit Polish historians at all - and I apologize if it seemed so. I was just willing to allow a little bit of skepticism because Cossacks did fight the Poles in that period. I had no idea it would cause such a storm.

    Personally, I don't think the Sich lifestyle is too "gay friendly", but I believe that some gays would have managed to get in there to spend time around all those studs.

    Recently the gay org of Zaporizhzhia tried to hijack the symbols of the Sich and the Cossack org got really angry about it.

  969. And this is what historian job is: to put things together to check whether there is some picture behind them.

    If I want to watch Polish fairy tales, I’d much prefer watching the animation of the genius of Krzysztof Dębowski. Time to put Kitowski out to pasture, where he belongs… 🙂

  970. @Another Polish Perspective
    @Mr. Hack


    With you, it always seems “maybe, maybe, maybe”. You like to throw around all sorts of unsubstantiated fantasies. I actuall thought higher of you at one time.
     
    "Likely, More Likely, Most Likely" is history.
    I thought you are a nice Ukrainian but you seem to be as unable to own Ukrainian mistakes/problems as AP clearly is. You are a religious person, but now you are ready to throw Kitowicz clerical reputation under the bus, into the arms of sin - unreasonably insinuating (since there are no arguments) that he was some self-hating closeted gay projecting on other gays - just to save leaking reputations of Zaporozhian Cossacks. This is not Christian. This is nationalist. I see you are first Ukrainian, and later Christian.

    Previously you responded to my argument from Husaria organisation with a photo of some Polish gay LARPing as hussar during "Equality Parade" in Warsaw. What level of discussion is this ?!
    This is getting ridiculous.

    Replies: @Another Polish Perspective, @Mr. Hack

    Look, just because I’m not willing to support your unproven theory that the Ukrainian Zaporizhian Hoste had a higher proportion of homosexuals within its ranks then did other military formations of the era, all based on the Ukrainophobic rants of one old Polish priest, does not make me either a Ukrainian nationalist nor a reprobate Christian. It’s up to you to make a more substantial case before anybody here or anywhere else will believe you. I’ll agree with you here though:

    This is getting ridiculous.

  971. @Another Polish Perspective
    @Mr. Hack

    Kitowicz became a priest when he was 50. It would be impossible today. Clergy was a career for the well-to-do at that time, it was a bit different to what is now. It was probably easier for Kitowicz to publish these "unkind" things about Cossacks as a clergyman, since he could claim "I am just stigmatizing a sin".


    If you stitch together all of your various theories into one…you come up with:
     
    And this is what historian job is: to put things together to check whether there is some picture behind them. You cannot put forward one source without mention of X to claim X does not exist. This is really naïve.

    There is only circumstantial evidence here, but there is more of it for higher than usual level of homosexuality in Sicz than against it. Above all no one disputed Kitowicz claims during his time - since his thesis was controversial, it should have been disputed as vehemently as here if obviously untrue. But there was no refutation.

    Replies: @AP

    Above all no one disputed Kitowicz claims during his time – since his thesis was controversial, it should have been disputed as vehemently as here if obviously untrue. But there was no refutation.

    Why would Polish Catholics, whose people were brutally slaughtered by Cossacks, dispute the dark fairytales about Cossacks engaging in bestiality and homosexuality?

  972. @songbird
    @LatW


    What I was talking about was the influence of the US State Department and other Western institutions on the internal decision making process within the country.
     
    Honestly, I often suspect that many WEs are too quick to lay all the blame on the US. To a certain extent, I think it is just the same process repeating across the Atlantic that happened here. (And I think one could unfortunately say this for much of EE). But, maybe, it is useful for nationalists to be anti-American. Though I am not entirely sure, if it avoids root mechanisms, but then again Hollywood has become one of these.

    Well, how do you see such advocacy from the side of CEEs, in practical terms?
     
    Most of all, I'd like EEs to get their house in order, in terms of immigration and TFR. If they did, I expect that there will eventually be some amount of capital flight there. I like how Orban (whatever his flaws) seems to have an assertive vision. I'd like to see more of that. I think an EE with their house in order would give blackpilled Western Europeans hope.

    Beyond that, I think it would be mostly gestures. Committees, rhetoric, propaganda, state press. Try to embarrass the Western regime, by pointing to its contradictions and the way it persecutes nationalists.

    I'd like to see some effort of coordination intended to compete with multicult Hollywood. I think it is really harmful for European nationalists to have Hollywood's degenerate and multicult-by-default effluent dominate the culture. I believe that there is a commercial model that could be exploited. That there is a market for non-multicult stuff even among non-Euros who want to see the genuine product. Maybe, they could even try a quota system, to limit the negative influence of Hollywood.

    I probably don't have the best strategy, but I'd like to see a regular effort put into it. Maybe, they could use analytics to try for find out what works best, and a kind of skunk works for trying new things.

    Replies: @LatW

    Honestly, I often suspect that many WEs are too quick to lay all the blame on the US.

    That’s correct, the US is but one of the actors (the problem with the US in this context is that they are promoting the most extreme end of the ideology which most American citizens don’t even share, much less citizens of other countries). There are a ton of other WE orgs and even what seems at this point global ones, OSCE, Lesbian and Gay organization ILGA, Council of Europe, Amnesty International and various other leftist scum. But they can act in a concerted effort, if needed. There is a dynamic there, especially with engaging with the local collaborators. It is important to split up those international orgs from the local collaborators (who are much weaker on their own).

    [MORE]

    To a certain extent, I think it is just the same process repeating across the Atlantic that happened here. (And I think one could unfortunately say this for much of EE)

    The EEs have their core nationalities from ancient times which helps but it may not be sufficient. If the narrative was switched from “the modern political nation” to the narrative of “uniqueness of people” then this could help. By the way, there is a rising “decolonization” narrative in Brussels and around Europe which is directed towards Russia, Ukraine, Chechens, Tatars, etc. This narrative could possibly be framed to help EEs.

    But, maybe, it is useful for nationalists to be anti-American.

    Anti-Americanism is kind of a topic of its own, it is multi-faceted. One can have somewhat useful pro-Americanism such as libertarianism, believe it or not, a while ago there were far right EE Trumpists running around. I think some are still there.

    Remember also that the EEs have their local culture, not everyone even watches Hollywood, they also draw some from WE. Let’s not blame America for all sins – it varies, someone like myself loves America for the “eagles, leaping salmon, rugged mountains, freedom”, etc., which has nothing to do with things that others might like such as “multi-culturalism, African American culture, SWPL culture even, tech, higher ed, etc. Not to mention crazy liberals, I once met a lesbian journalist in my home country who was antagonizing the local politicians with her work and when she was confronted with it, she said “Obama is my president!” (as in I’m not going to respect local politicians, and in this case America is just used as some “higher ideal” to mess with your compatriots, or they use “the Nordic states” this and that, as if everyone has to be like them, frankly, anything can be used that way – it’s how the fifth column behave, this “ideal” or benchmark can be anything out there). It can be that nutty at the fringes. Everyone is different.

    Btw, I don’t really feel comfortable pushing WN in the US because the American people do not like these things in many cases. I believe we should support people such as Greg J, but we should as Europeans also respect the will of the American people and their traditions.

    Most of all, I’d like EEs to get their house in order, in terms of immigration and TFR

    Right, everyone should get their “house in order”. Because, if the Western nationalists don’t, but expect it from the EEs, then it’s kind of weird. But those are minor, petty differences. The big picture is that, of course, they should. But remember that EEs are normal people, too. Most people will dedicate their lives to themselves, not WN ideals. Then again, they know inside that in some cases those ideals are closely connected to their wellbeing (even if not spelled out exactly that way).

    If they did, I expect that there will eventually be some amount of capital flight there.

    They are receiving capital, but, of course, nowhere near as much as Western Europe and Scandinavia. This is a tricky question, because obviously what matters is how this capital is used. If the capital is used to create the same economic relationship as in the West, then it might not be that great.

    Recently, I’ve been thinking a lot about decentralization (and maybe even de-urbanization), and how it could affect these things. Of course, we should not give up our cities, never! But – in a targeted way, smaller areas can be built up and those areas will not be as inviting or attractive to non-Euros. There is a bit of this trend starting in the Baltics, I’m assuming also elsewhere such as Poland maybe. Basically many young families no longer want to live in the city and, while they might be earning their money there, they are not spending it there as much as before, but keeping it on the outskirts of the city where the living standards are getting higher. The city is complaining about it.
    I believe this is the way out.

    Beyond that, I think it would be mostly gestures. Committees, rhetoric, propaganda, state press. Try to embarrass the Western regime, by pointing to its contradictions and the way it persecutes nationalists.

    These gestures may need to be refined to make them more clandestine. Of course, one way is to do it the way Orban does it, very straightforward. But there is a smarter, more refined way to skew the narrative. You know that Orban recently mentioned something like “we’re not going to race mix” or something similar and, of course, was trashed for it. This narrative could be skewed to talk about “the uniqueness of small nations” (can be applied to many nations in Europe, in fact, most) that should be preserved (untouchable). Etc. Do it from the other end – not as the “aggressive white guy” but as a “passive vulnerable female”. Orban is even trying to use his Turanic roots, they could be presented as “the Other” in Europe, be special, what not. The only small nuance is that they have to observe the EU rules.

    I’d like to see some effort of coordination intended to compete with multicult Hollywood.

    Oh there is. It might be on the margins but there is a ton of folkish European culture going around among the youth (and even older), in music, art, festivals. It may not be as coordinated but it is built from the bottom up (some of it is protected by the state). But only certain youths gravitate towards it, however, I’ve been pleasantly surprised that they keep coming. Of course, there are other youths who are attracted to negative culture.

    I believe that there is a commercial model that could be exploited. That there is a market for non-multicult stuff even among non-Euros who want to see the genuine product.

    Absolutely there is. It is working now. But it’s not as wide as needed. A lot of it is crypto WN. It’s just people who are involved in it do not view it that way, they are innocent and do not formulate it in political terms.

    Maybe, they could use analytics to try for find out what works best, and a kind of skunk works for trying new things.

    This is an interesting idea, I have thought about it myself (in terms of market research, analytics can also be used, the way it is used in business). Good idea.

    “Through the centuries..”

    • Thanks: songbird
  973. @Another Polish Perspective
    @Another Polish Perspective

    Actually it should be:
    "that he was some self-hating closeted gay projecting on other straights his homosexuality"

    Well, this is what you are suggesting now: an old gay Kitowicz projected on straight Cossacks and only on straight Cossacks his homosexualism to make them odious to other heteros. How this is logical, I don't know.

    Elaborate construction, elaborate - and much more than mine.

    Replies: @LatW

    Btw, I didn’t mean to discredit Polish historians at all – and I apologize if it seemed so. I was just willing to allow a little bit of skepticism because Cossacks did fight the Poles in that period. I had no idea it would cause such a storm.

    Personally, I don’t think the Sich lifestyle is too “gay friendly”, but I believe that some gays would have managed to get in there to spend time around all those studs.

    Recently the gay org of Zaporizhzhia tried to hijack the symbols of the Sich and the Cossack org got really angry about it.

  974. @Another Polish Perspective
    @AP


    No, I did not. I stated that my paternal
    Haplogroup was identified as Wendish.

    You “reasoned” your way into interpreting this as me identifying as a Wend.
     

    Wends are cultural/historical/mythological category. If you say Wendish I am, you claim this heritage, especially as Wends were much larger category than your single clade.

    And you failed, given that in this case the genetic data matched the historical claims.
     
    There are no historical claims about Wends, they are just secondary name used by non-Wendish Germans for Slavic people who lived along them. It would be like calling Egyptians Maghrebi because they live in North Egypt. Taking into account that Wends were legendary Celtic people of Slavic lands too, it is all very confusing and the person in the company who decide to name the clade "Wendish" was either German or had no historical education at all. The clade spreads over EE but they decided to name it Wendish despite the presence of other R1a clades which were there and thus would automatically be called Wendish by the late (German) logic of this name, the only logic here being apparently the claim that later-Germanized Slavs had never been Slavs, but some "Wends". This is a name created for confusion, not for discernment. But you will never ask yourself why Slavic people should suddenly become "Wends", since you are not a contrarian. And you trust authority so much that if your firm says "Wends", there must be Wends!

    Being a contrarian for contrarian’s sake is no better than conforming for the sake of conformity.

     

    No. It gives you the advantage of active engagement with reality, questioning being the basic structure of science and knowledge. And I am only contrarian when received knowledge is somehow suspicious - which is, unfortunately, quite often.

    But as you like your comfortable reality where there is an answer for everything, and you consider me as "Fabelman" despite me being no Spielberg, I can only end with this beautiful song from one of movies of my childhood, "Podróże Pana Kleksa" (Journeys of Mr Kleks/Mr Blot), The Journey Into The Land Of Fables/ Podróż w krainę baśni... lyrics are almost as psychodelic as in "Yelllow submarine"... there is something about dancing elephants among pink mussels travelling along light circles...!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-pWOYzLjjI

    And the greatest hit of the movie, Meluzyna, about unrequited love of Meluzyna for some cancer (Pustorak):

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gSqj5UY6iUA

    Replies: @AP

    “No, I did not. I stated that my paternal
    Haplogroup was identified as Wendish.

    You “reasoned” your way into interpreting this as me identifying as a Wend.”

    Wends are cultural/historical/mythological category. If you say Wendish I am, you claim this heritage,

    Already three times I have explained to you that I never claimed to be a Wend, and yet you insist I did and do.

    If you can’t even understand that and judge it properly, what hope do you have to understand anything else?

    But as you like your comfortable reality where there is an answer for everything, and you consider me as “Fabelman” despite me being no Spielberg, I can only end with this beautiful song from one of movies of my childhood, “Podróże Pana Kleksa

    Okay, the videos were charming, thank you. You have redeemed yourself somewhat.

  975. @Another Polish Perspective
    @Mr. Hack

    What you write about different Cossack formations is true (I have already mentioned Register Cossacks), even if they were sometimes called "hajducy" when in private service of magnates. "Kozak" sometimes means a light military formation, sometimes it is used in national terms (mostly about Zaporozhian Cossacks), and sometimes in both senses.

    Kitowicz meant Sicz Zaporoska (Zaporozhian Cossacks). That was the place where "wild" Cossacks lived, and they lived there in their barracks organized after kurzeń.

    The French guy who built ant-Cossack Kudak - the fortress which was to keep them inside Ukraine - was just about 15 years in Ukraine, and unlike some foreigners, returned to France, so he can't be said to know Polish Ukraine intimately- that would probably be an exaggeration. Well, if he did, maybe he was a gay too. Probably writing about homosexuality couldn't be so safe for him in the way it was for Kitowicz, who was a priest. Anyway, as the old adage says "The lack of evidence is not the evidence of absence".

    But even Wikipedia confirms Kitowicz (at least partly) when it says that women were banned there, as if Sicz were Mount Athos:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zaporozhian_Sich

    The Cossacks formed a society (hromada) that consisted of "kurins" (each with several hundred Cossacks). A Cossack military court severely punished violence and stealing among compatriots, the bringing of women to the Sich, the consumption of alcohol in periods of conflict, and other offenses.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @AP

    The Frenchman lived among the Cossacks for 15-20 years, wrote about what he saw, and didn’t mention rampant homosexuality and bestiality.

    The Polish priest, whose people have been slaughtered by Cossacks (thus he would be motivated to slander them), didn’t living among them, and repeated old stories about them engaging in those sex acts.

    It’s rather logical to conclude that the first source is more credible than Kitowicz, whose information was second-hand (or third-hand) and who was motivated to slander the Cossacks.

    But even Wikipedia confirms Kitowicz (at least partly) when it says that women were banned there, as if Sicz were Mount Athos

    Wikipedia also states:

    In times of peace, Cossacks were engaged in their occupations, living with their families, studying strategy, languages and educating recruits.

    :::::::::::::::

    The Zaporozhian Cossacks were exiled to Romania with their families, and some of their descendants still live there. Others moved to Kuban.

    • Replies: @Another Polish Perspective
    @AP

    Wikipedia article on Zaporozohian Sitch does not say this:

    In times of peace, Cossacks were engaged in their occupations, living with their families, studying strategy, languages and educating recruits.
     

    On Sich, women were banned regardless of war activity. Such was the untwisted meaning of the quote I earlier provided. But let's pretend for any price that thousands of men who voluntarily lived among themselves not for religious reasons, had nothing to do with homosexuality.

    Twisting things which are one click away from a reader? You are falling really low, AP. What would Ukrainian Academy of Sciences say... ?

    Outside of Sich Cossacks behaved more normally - I am rather sure the Frenchman who was in royal service didn't live for 15 years in Sich itself, but in other parts of Ukraine.

    Replies: @AP

  976. @Dmitry
    @LatW


    offensive without air support, that would be stupid. All those vehicles, including expensive tanks, would just get destroyed

     

    Both sides don't have air dominance and have difficulty flying for air support.

    Bradley has better optics, longer range missiles, than Soviet vehicles. So, they will have advantage in the direct fire against. But they will be vulnerable for indirect fire from artillery, which has been the main force in the war.

    But NATO countries are now giving Ukraine modern artillery systems and radars. For example, there is a French system called "CAESAR" which they are stocking for Ukraine. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19MvDVlpX_8.

    Although the number of modern weapons they give to Ukraine is small (in larger quantities they give older 1970s equipment), as the war continues, Ukraine will receive such kind of qualitative advances. It seems like NATO countries don't want to give too many weapons to Ukraine at the same time though.


    he should’ve manned up. The village was good
     
    If I remember scrolling one of the AP/Here Be Dragon discussions (those discussions were a bit mentally ill from both sides, to it mildly). And it was about his favorite friend was killed by those Ukrainian villagers.
    https://www.unz.com/akarlin/open-thread-192/#comment-5451545

    Although his stories often mixed with the Kremlin propaganda and other crazy things. Still, there is real experience and tragedy there. https://www.unz.com/akarlin/open-thread-192/#comment-5451545

    c Maslenitsa tradition of “stenka na stenku”. This tradition is a bit wild, but there are rules. I saw that this tradition is live and well in Russia
     
    You are talking about Russia today, some hobbyists arranging for "historical re-enactment" in the village festival. You like this for aesthetic reasons etc. It would be popular on Instagram under hashtag "cottagecore". But unless I misinterpret (his posts were written in confusing way), I think he was just talking about real fights.

    Being attacked by hooligans, is not cottagecore. It seems to me the problem for him, was living near hooligans, which he associates to their specific nationality. It's the same thing Americans like Steve Sailer are worried about in Los Angeles, they don't want to be beaten.

    Whether there is a national aspect to why he was beaten because he wasn't speaking Ukrainian dialect? It's not always clear. Some people claimed the "knock out game" in America is nationally motivated violence. Americans are beaten by African American gangs and then become racist against African Americans. Here Be Dragon was beaten by Ukrainian gangs and is now racist against Ukrainians.

    There were quite few parts of the USSR and later with those problems. In most regions there no national aspect for violence, but in some zones the violence can have nationalism as an additional layer (as in the knock-out game could be in Brooklyn has some national disharmony related to it). And this ordinary violence has been sometimes the sociological prelude before real wars (e.g. Azerbaijan vs Armenia).


    something sitting in the Kremlin who wants something infernal

     

    It could be explained by the Greek tragedy, between hubris and nemesis. Or less dramatically the gambler in the casino with the "sunk costs". Or frog with softly changing water temperature.

    But there can be also the overlapping motives. For example, Putin's government will increase control by reducing the proportion of men in the 20s age group, so this can be viewed as not fully negative by them.

    This is common many times in history, that the rulers want to reduce the number of young men in the society. War is useful for rulers to reduce the proportion of young men, reducing the revolutionary potential of the population.

    In the milder version, Lukashenko is very happy to encourage the young people in Belarus to emigrate, as the older population is more stable to control.


    Aliev is not focused on internal development, Baku looks good.
     
    That is often the postsoviet scam, like in Moscow, they throw the country's money on it, so it becomes now like a fake Switzerland that distracts from the need for forensic accountants. As the gangster invests to have very shiny shoes. Or a company has expensive corporate events. It effects the primitive apes' brains that sees "money and power".

    When you saw something unbalanced like that, you really want to have the corporate accountants to see what they are really doing with the money. If they throw all this money in the center of the city, you should be asking more to see the accountant's analysis.

    Just like mafia wearing very expensive suits, is not necessarily indication of a good accounting.


    traditions which keeps them strong.
     
    Well, they have a competent army, so it's not analogous for all the postsoviet countries. They have a competent multi-vector external policy.

    Russia used to visit with NATO as well. Russian military visited the Latvian main military base not too long before
     
    There has been almost 20 years of anti-Western rhetoric. It's not multi-vector policy. With a pro-Western leader like Prokhorov, there would have been more diplomatic (and then military) space for winning the postsoviet border conflicts. Of course, it would be better not to enter those border conflicts. It's the 21st century, a government working for people would focus on internal development, not bombing your neighbors.

    In Russia, the last 20 years should have been especially an emergency time for internal development and diversifying, as the demand for oil will peak by the 2030s years.
     

    Replies: @LatW, @LatW, @LatW

    And it was about his favorite friend was killed by those Ukrainian villagers.
    https://www.unz.com/akarlin/open-thread-192/#comment-5451545

    To be honest, I did not read most of his posts (while interesting, they seemed just too toxic, I knew that his posts would trigger me to respond and then leave me completely drained, so I didn’t muster up the strength to go against him and frankly couldn’t commit the time).

    [MORE]

    However, I did get a glimpse of his village experience and found those episodes telling and even somewhat reminiscent of what I had been told back in the day. His experience sounds much worse and, frankly, less civilized than what was going on in the Baltic villages. Because it was ethnically homogenous there (mostly), one village fought another village. Also, there was resentment against the “city people” (just like Dragon explained). To which I would respond “А зря!” – “In vain”. Because until the 1990s wave of alcoholism, they were actually in better shape and had it better. So I can imagine how much healthier and more robust those Ukrainians from the village were. I think this Dragon guy may have been sitting all day playing guitar and smoking (and then acting pretentious). Of course, he got his ass kicked.

    Sorry to be blunt, but the Jewish people have been confined to the city too much. I know it’s not their fault because the village Jews were also decimated (but even in the village the Jews typically chose non-physically heavy professions, such as trading – in and of itself it’s not bad, but it would give them a disadvantage in some ways). Btw, have you noticed that the Jews in Israel are way more vigorous and physically tough than the EE Jews…? I hope this doesn’t offend you, it’s just something to keep in mind when you talk about this Dragon guy’s grievances.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @LatW


    less civilized than what was going on in the Baltic villages
     
    Well, you are not far from IKEA country and Thunberg. He is from the border of Ukraine/Romania. You discuss Scandinavian interior design, he believes he is related to a dragon. When he was young, the most similar thing for online shopping, was probably going to the village's gypsies with a list of the objects for them to "find".

    Dragon guy may have been sitting all day playing guitar and smoking (and then acting pretentious). Of course, he got his ass kicked.

     

    It's a bit like saying to African people, they can "enjoy losing weight in their diet". After all, our neighbor is the Steve Sailer forum, where we are supposed feel bad about wealthy old Americans being scared of the "knock out game" on their journey to the golf course.

    That person was writing about his favorite friend killed in the school playground, so their face was destroyed and their fiance couldn't recognize them. If we believe his stories are true (who knows?), he was from a more dangerous ghetto than Eminem.

    I can imagine how much healthier and more robust those Ukrainians from the village were.
     
    Ukraine had relative high life expectancy until the 1960s, it was the same as Western Europe, so perhaps there had been some healthy traditions for this epoch.

    In Russia, people have been always smaller physically in the village than city. Although smaller people can be more strong. Other parts of the world, some of the most long living populations are peasants, possibly related to their smaller size.

    In Russia, there is a stereotypically a lot of generational differences as well. Grandparents from the village half of a metre smaller than grandchildren from the city.

    Jewish people have been confined to the city too much. I know it’s not their fault because the village Jews
     
    I wrote a post about this topic to Yahya which has been lost in the spam folder of this thread. I'll repost it later in the new thread if it doesn't show soon. I think it's more Jews are a people originally from the village and this is why Israel is today like overlapping of villages. Some is because of religion, religious Jews cannot live in buildings higher than about 3-4 levels high, if they don't want to climb on Shabbat. But the religion also requires the small community, where they know each other. So, if you look in Israel today, it is still a small village culture.

    Btw, have you noticed that the Jews in Israel are way more vigorous and physically tough than the EE Jews…? I hope this doesn’t offend you, it’s just something to keep in mind when you talk about this Dragon guy’s grievances.
     
    I agree Israeli culture likes a brutalism and violence in many areas, as you can expect from a country which is a warzone in the Middle East, that also prioritizes working class culture. Their national personality image is the cactus - with sharp spikes that make you bleed if you go close.

    Even with athletics, they like sports like women boxers - i.e. progressive values, but more brutal part of progressive (they win women boxing, not women football).
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBEbLeLo5Lc.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpXtBmRV_Dk.

    I don't know historically in Russia, but in the late 20th century there was duality of stereotype of Jews - there was a positive stereotype of nerds, but there were also the negative image of thieves/criminals.

    But in 21st century Jews in Russia are just a self-selecting club, or the evening school activity, for middle class people, with cultural interest. Those are not very strong identities, but becoming like evening classes, with some religious and emigration options. It's just a hobby.

    In Europe, I was talking to an African engineer (studying PhD in a mathematical topic) and he said he was going home after lunch "I have to go to synagogue". So, I was thinking, not just an engineer from Africa, but "co-incidentally" Jewish. This is when you see the self-selection for nerds.

    However, in Israel, it's not a special, self-selecting club of nerds, it's a religion with millions of people, in the mostly working class culture. And a zone of the Middle East (not a country for gentlemen of Vermont or New England) where violence is the popular solution

    Replies: @LatW

  977. @Dmitry
    @LatW


    offensive without air support, that would be stupid. All those vehicles, including expensive tanks, would just get destroyed

     

    Both sides don't have air dominance and have difficulty flying for air support.

    Bradley has better optics, longer range missiles, than Soviet vehicles. So, they will have advantage in the direct fire against. But they will be vulnerable for indirect fire from artillery, which has been the main force in the war.

    But NATO countries are now giving Ukraine modern artillery systems and radars. For example, there is a French system called "CAESAR" which they are stocking for Ukraine. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19MvDVlpX_8.

    Although the number of modern weapons they give to Ukraine is small (in larger quantities they give older 1970s equipment), as the war continues, Ukraine will receive such kind of qualitative advances. It seems like NATO countries don't want to give too many weapons to Ukraine at the same time though.


    he should’ve manned up. The village was good
     
    If I remember scrolling one of the AP/Here Be Dragon discussions (those discussions were a bit mentally ill from both sides, to it mildly). And it was about his favorite friend was killed by those Ukrainian villagers.
    https://www.unz.com/akarlin/open-thread-192/#comment-5451545

    Although his stories often mixed with the Kremlin propaganda and other crazy things. Still, there is real experience and tragedy there. https://www.unz.com/akarlin/open-thread-192/#comment-5451545

    c Maslenitsa tradition of “stenka na stenku”. This tradition is a bit wild, but there are rules. I saw that this tradition is live and well in Russia
     
    You are talking about Russia today, some hobbyists arranging for "historical re-enactment" in the village festival. You like this for aesthetic reasons etc. It would be popular on Instagram under hashtag "cottagecore". But unless I misinterpret (his posts were written in confusing way), I think he was just talking about real fights.

    Being attacked by hooligans, is not cottagecore. It seems to me the problem for him, was living near hooligans, which he associates to their specific nationality. It's the same thing Americans like Steve Sailer are worried about in Los Angeles, they don't want to be beaten.

    Whether there is a national aspect to why he was beaten because he wasn't speaking Ukrainian dialect? It's not always clear. Some people claimed the "knock out game" in America is nationally motivated violence. Americans are beaten by African American gangs and then become racist against African Americans. Here Be Dragon was beaten by Ukrainian gangs and is now racist against Ukrainians.

    There were quite few parts of the USSR and later with those problems. In most regions there no national aspect for violence, but in some zones the violence can have nationalism as an additional layer (as in the knock-out game could be in Brooklyn has some national disharmony related to it). And this ordinary violence has been sometimes the sociological prelude before real wars (e.g. Azerbaijan vs Armenia).


    something sitting in the Kremlin who wants something infernal

     

    It could be explained by the Greek tragedy, between hubris and nemesis. Or less dramatically the gambler in the casino with the "sunk costs". Or frog with softly changing water temperature.

    But there can be also the overlapping motives. For example, Putin's government will increase control by reducing the proportion of men in the 20s age group, so this can be viewed as not fully negative by them.

    This is common many times in history, that the rulers want to reduce the number of young men in the society. War is useful for rulers to reduce the proportion of young men, reducing the revolutionary potential of the population.

    In the milder version, Lukashenko is very happy to encourage the young people in Belarus to emigrate, as the older population is more stable to control.


    Aliev is not focused on internal development, Baku looks good.
     
    That is often the postsoviet scam, like in Moscow, they throw the country's money on it, so it becomes now like a fake Switzerland that distracts from the need for forensic accountants. As the gangster invests to have very shiny shoes. Or a company has expensive corporate events. It effects the primitive apes' brains that sees "money and power".

    When you saw something unbalanced like that, you really want to have the corporate accountants to see what they are really doing with the money. If they throw all this money in the center of the city, you should be asking more to see the accountant's analysis.

    Just like mafia wearing very expensive suits, is not necessarily indication of a good accounting.


    traditions which keeps them strong.
     
    Well, they have a competent army, so it's not analogous for all the postsoviet countries. They have a competent multi-vector external policy.

    Russia used to visit with NATO as well. Russian military visited the Latvian main military base not too long before
     
    There has been almost 20 years of anti-Western rhetoric. It's not multi-vector policy. With a pro-Western leader like Prokhorov, there would have been more diplomatic (and then military) space for winning the postsoviet border conflicts. Of course, it would be better not to enter those border conflicts. It's the 21st century, a government working for people would focus on internal development, not bombing your neighbors.

    In Russia, the last 20 years should have been especially an emergency time for internal development and diversifying, as the demand for oil will peak by the 2030s years.
     

    Replies: @LatW, @LatW, @LatW

    You are talking about Russia today, some hobbyists arranging for “historical re-enactment” in the village festival. You like this for aesthetic reasons etc.

    Right. But it’s also good because it’s a kind of a sport, often outside in fresh air, which keeps them healthy and gives them some confidence. They can also hang out with their community, light a fire and listen to nice music. It’s a good bonding experience for everyone.

  978. @Dmitry
    @LatW


    offensive without air support, that would be stupid. All those vehicles, including expensive tanks, would just get destroyed

     

    Both sides don't have air dominance and have difficulty flying for air support.

    Bradley has better optics, longer range missiles, than Soviet vehicles. So, they will have advantage in the direct fire against. But they will be vulnerable for indirect fire from artillery, which has been the main force in the war.

    But NATO countries are now giving Ukraine modern artillery systems and radars. For example, there is a French system called "CAESAR" which they are stocking for Ukraine. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19MvDVlpX_8.

    Although the number of modern weapons they give to Ukraine is small (in larger quantities they give older 1970s equipment), as the war continues, Ukraine will receive such kind of qualitative advances. It seems like NATO countries don't want to give too many weapons to Ukraine at the same time though.


    he should’ve manned up. The village was good
     
    If I remember scrolling one of the AP/Here Be Dragon discussions (those discussions were a bit mentally ill from both sides, to it mildly). And it was about his favorite friend was killed by those Ukrainian villagers.
    https://www.unz.com/akarlin/open-thread-192/#comment-5451545

    Although his stories often mixed with the Kremlin propaganda and other crazy things. Still, there is real experience and tragedy there. https://www.unz.com/akarlin/open-thread-192/#comment-5451545

    c Maslenitsa tradition of “stenka na stenku”. This tradition is a bit wild, but there are rules. I saw that this tradition is live and well in Russia
     
    You are talking about Russia today, some hobbyists arranging for "historical re-enactment" in the village festival. You like this for aesthetic reasons etc. It would be popular on Instagram under hashtag "cottagecore". But unless I misinterpret (his posts were written in confusing way), I think he was just talking about real fights.

    Being attacked by hooligans, is not cottagecore. It seems to me the problem for him, was living near hooligans, which he associates to their specific nationality. It's the same thing Americans like Steve Sailer are worried about in Los Angeles, they don't want to be beaten.

    Whether there is a national aspect to why he was beaten because he wasn't speaking Ukrainian dialect? It's not always clear. Some people claimed the "knock out game" in America is nationally motivated violence. Americans are beaten by African American gangs and then become racist against African Americans. Here Be Dragon was beaten by Ukrainian gangs and is now racist against Ukrainians.

    There were quite few parts of the USSR and later with those problems. In most regions there no national aspect for violence, but in some zones the violence can have nationalism as an additional layer (as in the knock-out game could be in Brooklyn has some national disharmony related to it). And this ordinary violence has been sometimes the sociological prelude before real wars (e.g. Azerbaijan vs Armenia).


    something sitting in the Kremlin who wants something infernal

     

    It could be explained by the Greek tragedy, between hubris and nemesis. Or less dramatically the gambler in the casino with the "sunk costs". Or frog with softly changing water temperature.

    But there can be also the overlapping motives. For example, Putin's government will increase control by reducing the proportion of men in the 20s age group, so this can be viewed as not fully negative by them.

    This is common many times in history, that the rulers want to reduce the number of young men in the society. War is useful for rulers to reduce the proportion of young men, reducing the revolutionary potential of the population.

    In the milder version, Lukashenko is very happy to encourage the young people in Belarus to emigrate, as the older population is more stable to control.


    Aliev is not focused on internal development, Baku looks good.
     
    That is often the postsoviet scam, like in Moscow, they throw the country's money on it, so it becomes now like a fake Switzerland that distracts from the need for forensic accountants. As the gangster invests to have very shiny shoes. Or a company has expensive corporate events. It effects the primitive apes' brains that sees "money and power".

    When you saw something unbalanced like that, you really want to have the corporate accountants to see what they are really doing with the money. If they throw all this money in the center of the city, you should be asking more to see the accountant's analysis.

    Just like mafia wearing very expensive suits, is not necessarily indication of a good accounting.


    traditions which keeps them strong.
     
    Well, they have a competent army, so it's not analogous for all the postsoviet countries. They have a competent multi-vector external policy.

    Russia used to visit with NATO as well. Russian military visited the Latvian main military base not too long before
     
    There has been almost 20 years of anti-Western rhetoric. It's not multi-vector policy. With a pro-Western leader like Prokhorov, there would have been more diplomatic (and then military) space for winning the postsoviet border conflicts. Of course, it would be better not to enter those border conflicts. It's the 21st century, a government working for people would focus on internal development, not bombing your neighbors.

    In Russia, the last 20 years should have been especially an emergency time for internal development and diversifying, as the demand for oil will peak by the 2030s years.
     

    Replies: @LatW, @LatW, @LatW

    With a pro-Western leader like Prokhorov, there would have been more diplomatic (and then military) space for winning the postsoviet border conflicts. Of course, it would be better not to enter those border conflicts. It’s the 21st century, a government working for people would focus on internal development, not bombing your neighbors.

    The issues with neighbors would not be as deep or acutely negative with someone like Prokhorov. That is, if he were able to control the whole system. In fact, he may even seem a bit too neo-liberal, imo. But things would be much easier and there would be less conflict. But maybe I’m wrong and there is something deeper, underlying, that doesn’t allow to have harmony. Also, often outsiders want a liberal in neighboring countries, but a nationalist at home.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @LatW

    He directly avoided saying something about Ukraine (just the nonviewpoint blog post in 2014 https://md-prokhorov.livejournal.com/125177.html ) .

    But there can be some indication of his view, as he owned РБК when it was investigating about the war in Ukraine in 2014, saying there was direct entry of the Russian military (https://www.rbc.ru/politics/02/10/2014/542c0dcfcbb20f5d06c1d87a)

    Although when he was bullied later by the authorities, most of the journalists were fired there.

  979. @AP
    @Another Polish Perspective

    The Frenchman lived among the Cossacks for 15-20 years, wrote about what he saw, and didn't mention rampant homosexuality and bestiality.

    The Polish priest, whose people have been slaughtered by Cossacks (thus he would be motivated to slander them), didn't living among them, and repeated old stories about them engaging in those sex acts.

    It's rather logical to conclude that the first source is more credible than Kitowicz, whose information was second-hand (or third-hand) and who was motivated to slander the Cossacks.


    But even Wikipedia confirms Kitowicz (at least partly) when it says that women were banned there, as if Sicz were Mount Athos
     
    Wikipedia also states:

    In times of peace, Cossacks were engaged in their occupations, living with their families, studying strategy, languages and educating recruits.

    :::::::::::::::

    The Zaporozhian Cossacks were exiled to Romania with their families, and some of their descendants still live there. Others moved to Kuban.

    Replies: @Another Polish Perspective

    Wikipedia article on Zaporozohian Sitch does not say this:

    In times of peace, Cossacks were engaged in their occupations, living with their families, studying strategy, languages and educating recruits.

    On Sich, women were banned regardless of war activity. Such was the untwisted meaning of the quote I earlier provided. But let’s pretend for any price that thousands of men who voluntarily lived among themselves not for religious reasons, had nothing to do with homosexuality.

    Twisting things which are one click away from a reader? You are falling really low, AP. What would Ukrainian Academy of Sciences say… ?

    Outside of Sich Cossacks behaved more normally – I am rather sure the Frenchman who was in royal service didn’t live for 15 years in Sich itself, but in other parts of Ukraine.

    • Replies: @AP
    @Another Polish Perspective


    “Wikipedia article on Zaporozohian Sitch does not say this:”

    “In times of peace, Cossacks were engaged in their occupations, living with their families, studying strategy, languages and educating recruits “
     
    Why would it? They did not have their families at the Sitch, which was a sort of military and political headquarters. The Wikipedia page about the Zaporozhian Cossacks included that information.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zaporozhian_Cossacks

    So they spent some time at the Sitch and in peaceful times were on their homesteads with their wives and children.

    But let’s pretend for any price that thousands of men who voluntarily lived among themselves not for religious reasons, had nothing to do with homosexuality.

     

    Do you think all soldiers in militaries that don’t include women are homosexuals, or do you limit that to Cossacks?

    This is what you wrote about Hussars, who seemed to have the same pattern as the Zaporozhian Cossacks, of time spent at war among men and then time with their families:

    “Unless there was a war, they weren’t serving 365 days in year, they spent time at home too. Often they served for 2-3 years, then made a pause at home for several years, to serve again for a couple of years”

    Hmm, all that time spent among men…
  980. @Another Polish Perspective
    @AP

    Wikipedia article on Zaporozohian Sitch does not say this:

    In times of peace, Cossacks were engaged in their occupations, living with their families, studying strategy, languages and educating recruits.
     

    On Sich, women were banned regardless of war activity. Such was the untwisted meaning of the quote I earlier provided. But let's pretend for any price that thousands of men who voluntarily lived among themselves not for religious reasons, had nothing to do with homosexuality.

    Twisting things which are one click away from a reader? You are falling really low, AP. What would Ukrainian Academy of Sciences say... ?

    Outside of Sich Cossacks behaved more normally - I am rather sure the Frenchman who was in royal service didn't live for 15 years in Sich itself, but in other parts of Ukraine.

    Replies: @AP

    “Wikipedia article on Zaporozohian Sitch does not say this:”

    “In times of peace, Cossacks were engaged in their occupations, living with their families, studying strategy, languages and educating recruits “

    Why would it? They did not have their families at the Sitch, which was a sort of military and political headquarters. The Wikipedia page about the Zaporozhian Cossacks included that information.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zaporozhian_Cossacks

    So they spent some time at the Sitch and in peaceful times were on their homesteads with their wives and children.

    But let’s pretend for any price that thousands of men who voluntarily lived among themselves not for religious reasons, had nothing to do with homosexuality.

    Do you think all soldiers in militaries that don’t include women are homosexuals, or do you limit that to Cossacks?

    This is what you wrote about Hussars, who seemed to have the same pattern as the Zaporozhian Cossacks, of time spent at war among men and then time with their families:

    “Unless there was a war, they weren’t serving 365 days in year, they spent time at home too. Often they served for 2-3 years, then made a pause at home for several years, to serve again for a couple of years”

    Hmm, all that time spent among men…

  981. @LatW
    @Dmitry


    And it was about his favorite friend was killed by those Ukrainian villagers.
    https://www.unz.com/akarlin/open-thread-192/#comment-5451545
     
    To be honest, I did not read most of his posts (while interesting, they seemed just too toxic, I knew that his posts would trigger me to respond and then leave me completely drained, so I didn't muster up the strength to go against him and frankly couldn't commit the time).

    However, I did get a glimpse of his village experience and found those episodes telling and even somewhat reminiscent of what I had been told back in the day. His experience sounds much worse and, frankly, less civilized than what was going on in the Baltic villages. Because it was ethnically homogenous there (mostly), one village fought another village. Also, there was resentment against the "city people" (just like Dragon explained). To which I would respond "А зря!" - "In vain". Because until the 1990s wave of alcoholism, they were actually in better shape and had it better. So I can imagine how much healthier and more robust those Ukrainians from the village were. I think this Dragon guy may have been sitting all day playing guitar and smoking (and then acting pretentious). Of course, he got his ass kicked.

    Sorry to be blunt, but the Jewish people have been confined to the city too much. I know it's not their fault because the village Jews were also decimated (but even in the village the Jews typically chose non-physically heavy professions, such as trading - in and of itself it's not bad, but it would give them a disadvantage in some ways). Btw, have you noticed that the Jews in Israel are way more vigorous and physically tough than the EE Jews...? I hope this doesn't offend you, it's just something to keep in mind when you talk about this Dragon guy's grievances.

    Replies: @Dmitry

    less civilized than what was going on in the Baltic villages

    Well, you are not far from IKEA country and Thunberg. He is from the border of Ukraine/Romania. You discuss Scandinavian interior design, he believes he is related to a dragon. When he was young, the most similar thing for online shopping, was probably going to the village’s gypsies with a list of the objects for them to “find”.

    Dragon guy may have been sitting all day playing guitar and smoking (and then acting pretentious). Of course, he got his ass kicked.

    It’s a bit like saying to African people, they can “enjoy losing weight in their diet”. After all, our neighbor is the Steve Sailer forum, where we are supposed feel bad about wealthy old Americans being scared of the “knock out game” on their journey to the golf course.

    That person was writing about his favorite friend killed in the school playground, so their face was destroyed and their fiance couldn’t recognize them. If we believe his stories are true (who knows?), he was from a more dangerous ghetto than Eminem.

    I can imagine how much healthier and more robust those Ukrainians from the village were.

    Ukraine had relative high life expectancy until the 1960s, it was the same as Western Europe, so perhaps there had been some healthy traditions for this epoch.

    In Russia, people have been always smaller physically in the village than city. Although smaller people can be more strong. Other parts of the world, some of the most long living populations are peasants, possibly related to their smaller size.

    In Russia, there is a stereotypically a lot of generational differences as well. Grandparents from the village half of a metre smaller than grandchildren from the city.

    Jewish people have been confined to the city too much. I know it’s not their fault because the village Jews

    I wrote a post about this topic to Yahya which has been lost in the spam folder of this thread. I’ll repost it later in the new thread if it doesn’t show soon. I think it’s more Jews are a people originally from the village and this is why Israel is today like overlapping of villages. Some is because of religion, religious Jews cannot live in buildings higher than about 3-4 levels high, if they don’t want to climb on Shabbat. But the religion also requires the small community, where they know each other. So, if you look in Israel today, it is still a small village culture.

    Btw, have you noticed that the Jews in Israel are way more vigorous and physically tough than the EE Jews…? I hope this doesn’t offend you, it’s just something to keep in mind when you talk about this Dragon guy’s grievances.

    I agree Israeli culture likes a brutalism and violence in many areas, as you can expect from a country which is a warzone in the Middle East, that also prioritizes working class culture. Their national personality image is the cactus – with sharp spikes that make you bleed if you go close.

    Even with athletics, they like sports like women boxers – i.e. progressive values, but more brutal part of progressive (they win women boxing, not women football).
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBEbLeLo5Lc.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpXtBmRV_Dk.

    I don’t know historically in Russia, but in the late 20th century there was duality of stereotype of Jews – there was a positive stereotype of nerds, but there were also the negative image of thieves/criminals.

    But in 21st century Jews in Russia are just a self-selecting club, or the evening school activity, for middle class people, with cultural interest. Those are not very strong identities, but becoming like evening classes, with some religious and emigration options. It’s just a hobby.

    In Europe, I was talking to an African engineer (studying PhD in a mathematical topic) and he said he was going home after lunch “I have to go to synagogue”. So, I was thinking, not just an engineer from Africa, but “co-incidentally” Jewish. This is when you see the self-selection for nerds.

    However, in Israel, it’s not a special, self-selecting club of nerds, it’s a religion with millions of people, in the mostly working class culture. And a zone of the Middle East (not a country for gentlemen of Vermont or New England) where violence is the popular solution

    • Replies: @LatW
    @Dmitry


    That person was writing about his favorite friend killed in the school playground, so their face was destroyed and their fiance couldn’t recognize them. If we believe his stories are true (who knows?), he was from a more dangerous ghetto than Eminem.
     
    Now I do remember this story he shared, it was very sad. I wasn't sure when it happened, it seems his story happened in mid 1990s? 1993-94 would've been the worst years that way. A lot of negative and tragic things were happening everywhere at that time, in the Baltics, too. There are a couple of very sad stories I have as well, but I never blamed anyone for that (I could've blamed the USSR for not creating more private enterprise the way Poland did and then the repercussions wouldn't have been as severe), the way that this Dragon guy blames Ukraine for all the negatives that transpired after the collapse.

    What I alluded to above with regards to guitar playing, is that there are always "jocks" vs "nerds" type of fights. He was acting way too much like a stuck up city nerd around these guys most probably. I'm not saying any of this is acceptable behavior, it's just how it is.

    In Russia, people have been always smaller physically in the village than city.
     
    Wow, that's pretty harsh. That's totally unfair. In the Baltics it is not so. There are a lot of tall ones in the regions. Although it might be interesting to do such a study.

    Grandparents from the village half of a metre smaller than grandchildren from the city.
     
    That's insane. Half a meter is a lot, 50cms?? I have noticed this too about parents having taller children but it's usually something like 5-10cms max, it's all anecdotal, but I have seen quite a lot of that for those born in the 1980s. Some of them are taller than their parents. But again, their grandparents may have been tallish already (or there could've been a tall ancestor somewhere before). It's hard to tell, but it may be so, nutrition improved a lot (even though in the Baltics nutrition was always decent).

    I agree Israeli culture likes a brutalism and violence in many areas, as you can expect from a country which is a warzone in the Middle East, that also prioritizes working class culture.
     
    I didn't mean brutality (I didn't realize there was so much of that, including female boxing which is hideous), I meant the Jewish men in Israel appear to be more rugged, more robust, I guess? I remember seeing some delegation from Israel with security and those types were quite impressive, it overhauled my stereotype of the Jews completely (I had not seen Jews from Israel before that).

    However, in Israel, it’s not a special, self-selecting club of nerds, it’s a religion with millions of people, in the mostly working class culture. And a zone of the Middle East (not a country for gentlemen of Vermont or New England) where violence is the popular solution
     
    I really like that there is such a prevalence of these nerdy professions with the Jewish people, there are so many data scientists, sound engineers and other technical professions. But then there are also these more rugged types in Israel itself and at the IDF, it's a great combination. They get to have the best of both worlds.

    Replies: @AP, @Dmitry, @Dmitry

  982. @LatW
    @Dmitry


    With a pro-Western leader like Prokhorov, there would have been more diplomatic (and then military) space for winning the postsoviet border conflicts. Of course, it would be better not to enter those border conflicts. It’s the 21st century, a government working for people would focus on internal development, not bombing your neighbors.
     
    The issues with neighbors would not be as deep or acutely negative with someone like Prokhorov. That is, if he were able to control the whole system. In fact, he may even seem a bit too neo-liberal, imo. But things would be much easier and there would be less conflict. But maybe I'm wrong and there is something deeper, underlying, that doesn't allow to have harmony. Also, often outsiders want a liberal in neighboring countries, but a nationalist at home.

    Replies: @Dmitry

    He directly avoided saying something about Ukraine (just the nonviewpoint blog post in 2014 https://md-prokhorov.livejournal.com/125177.html ) .

    But there can be some indication of his view, as he owned РБК when it was investigating about the war in Ukraine in 2014, saying there was direct entry of the Russian military (https://www.rbc.ru/politics/02/10/2014/542c0dcfcbb20f5d06c1d87a)

    Although when he was bullied later by the authorities, most of the journalists were fired there.

  983. Hmm, all that time spent among men…

    I have already written about that few times, yet you again goes on with the old trope of men always being latent homosexuals… You seem not to read my comments, or you conveniently “forget” what I have written.

    Hussars were family men, doing their civic duty, spending their money, time and life; whereas being a Kossack was a profitable way of life, and not even fully military one (they were more like organized brigands), as in terms of military prowess they were not that great, usually losing to professionals. They certainly lacked in strategy, whatever their “studies”.

    Here is the entire chapter of Kitowicz on Cossacks, for anyone who would like to check how based or biased he was:

    https://literat.ug.edu.pl/kitowic/006.htm

    Kitowicz makes clear they did not have some homesteads behind, their main peaceful activity was cow herding, not agriculture. He also says Zaporozohian Cossacks were replenished by runaways and captive young boys (which could be homosexual grooming as well), not by sons of older Cossacks. Zaprozohian Cossackdom was partly adoptive system, like Catholic Church: young captives, and runaways. Since these Cossacks mainly raided what Kitowicz calls ‘osiadła Ukraina”/settled Ukraine, there would be some genetic homogeneity among captives, and thus Cossacks (the same for runaways).
    He gives etymology for “kurzeń” : it comes from “korzeń”(root), not from “kura” (hen).

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @Another Polish Perspective


    He also says Zaporozohian Cossacks were replenished by runaways and captive young boys (which could be homosexual grooming as well), not by sons of older Cossacks. Zaprozohian Cossackdom was partly adoptive system, like Catholic Church: young captives, and runaways.
     
    And you apparently believe this account? Nowhere else is anything like this alluded to, only by Fr. Kitowicz?

    Since these Cossacks mainly raided what Kitowicz calls ‘osiadła Ukraina”/settled Ukraine, there would be some genetic homogeneity among captives, and thus Cossacks (the same for runaways).
     
    Your good Father Kitowicz seems to have gotten his directions mixed up on this one as well. The Zaporozhian cossacks were not raiding their own people, their khutors and villages in the steppes, but further south where the Tatars and Turks came from. This is elementary knowledge, and you should know better being a supposed qualified "historian". BTW, have you actually had anything that you've written published?

    Replies: @Another Polish Perspective

    , @AP
    @Another Polish Perspective


    I have already written about that few times, yet you again goes on with the old trope of men always being latent homosexuals
     
    The fact that you couldn't detect the sarcasm and the mocking of the claim about Zaporozhians tells us more about your ability to understand what you read.

    Kossack was a profitable way of life, and not even fully military one (they were more like organized brigands), as in terms of military prowess they were not that great, usually losing to professionals.
     
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zaporozhian_Cossacks

    By 1615 and 1625, Cossacks had managed to raze townships on the outskirts of Constantinople, forcing the Ottoman Sultan Murad IV to flee his palace.[10] His nephew, Sultan Mehmed IV, fared little better as the recipient of the legendary Reply of the Zaporozhian Cossacks, a ribald response to Mehmed's insistence that the Cossacks submit to his authority..

    ...At that time, the Cossacks were one of the finest military organizations in Europe, and were employed by Russian, Polish, and French empires.

    Britannica:

    https://www.britannica.com/place/Poland/The-Cossacks

    "In the Polish-Turkish war of 1620–21, the victory in the Battle of Chocim had been largely due to the participation of some 40,000 Zaporozhian Cossacks, whom Petro Konashevych-Sahaydachny had brought to aid the Poles. "

    So we know that your knowledge of this part of history is quite poor and biased against Cossacks.


    Kitowicz makes clear they did not have some homesteads behind
     
    So now we have a concrete example of when he was wrong. If they did not have homesteads, how is it that their families settled the Danube and later the Kuban when the Cossacks were driven into exile?

    Indeed, the Cossacks had several thousand homesteads where they raised their families and joined them when not at war.

    So in summary, Kitowicz was a Polish Catholic at a time when Cossacks were murdering Poles and Catholics (thus, highly and understandably biased) who repeated dark fairytales that a biased anti-Cossack audience would enjoy, who is also wrong on facts that can actually be checked.

    Replies: @Another Polish Perspective

  984. @Another Polish Perspective

    Hmm, all that time spent among men…
     
    I have already written about that few times, yet you again goes on with the old trope of men always being latent homosexuals... You seem not to read my comments, or you conveniently "forget" what I have written.

    Hussars were family men, doing their civic duty, spending their money, time and life; whereas being a Kossack was a profitable way of life, and not even fully military one (they were more like organized brigands), as in terms of military prowess they were not that great, usually losing to professionals. They certainly lacked in strategy, whatever their "studies".

    Here is the entire chapter of Kitowicz on Cossacks, for anyone who would like to check how based or biased he was:

    https://literat.ug.edu.pl/kitowic/006.htm

    Kitowicz makes clear they did not have some homesteads behind, their main peaceful activity was cow herding, not agriculture. He also says Zaporozohian Cossacks were replenished by runaways and captive young boys (which could be homosexual grooming as well), not by sons of older Cossacks. Zaprozohian Cossackdom was partly adoptive system, like Catholic Church: young captives, and runaways. Since these Cossacks mainly raided what Kitowicz calls 'osiadła Ukraina"/settled Ukraine, there would be some genetic homogeneity among captives, and thus Cossacks (the same for runaways).
    He gives etymology for "kurzeń" : it comes from "korzeń"(root), not from "kura" (hen).

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @AP

    He also says Zaporozohian Cossacks were replenished by runaways and captive young boys (which could be homosexual grooming as well), not by sons of older Cossacks. Zaprozohian Cossackdom was partly adoptive system, like Catholic Church: young captives, and runaways.

    And you apparently believe this account? Nowhere else is anything like this alluded to, only by Fr. Kitowicz?

    Since these Cossacks mainly raided what Kitowicz calls ‘osiadła Ukraina”/settled Ukraine, there would be some genetic homogeneity among captives, and thus Cossacks (the same for runaways).

    Your good Father Kitowicz seems to have gotten his directions mixed up on this one as well. The Zaporozhian cossacks were not raiding their own people, their khutors and villages in the steppes, but further south where the Tatars and Turks came from. This is elementary knowledge, and you should know better being a supposed qualified “historian”. BTW, have you actually had anything that you’ve written published?

    • Replies: @Another Polish Perspective
    @Mr. Hack

    BTW, have you actually had anything that you’ve written published?
     

    Yes, but not about Ukraine. This is not my field. I have provided you with info I got during my history studies at university, in other words, received knowledge. On the opposite side, I was presented with some hearsay opinion of Ukrainian Academy of Science by people who thus are not professional historians of Ukraine too (or professional historians at all).

    Kitowicz writes that Sich was at that time already under Moscow rule and Cossacks apparently raided mainly Polish Ukraine at that time, at their own free will, however, there weren't any orders from Moscow. I suppose Ukraine was easier target since it was easier to hide there for them than among Tatars (which they raided too, of course, but apparently less, and only close to the border). Again, this fact reveals that Zaporozhian Cossacks did not see majority of people living in Ukraine (mostly Rusins, Poles, Jews) as their brothers - surprising but understandable if they were primarily group based on adoption, and not on kinship. Even your denial about this is based on this simple truth - you don't rob your kin. So either theses Cossacks didn't see other Ukrainians as their kin, or it was relatively unimportant for them, as, for example, would be for gays, for whom other gays are often reckoned to be more important than their own nationals (similarly to Jews, gays are often charged with the double loyalty, aka "gay networks").


    But you obviously didn't even try to read Kitowicz (easy to do with Google translator), or you would know it! It was a test (I specially did not include the info you were tested on) and you didn't pass (the omnipresent and indefatigable AP too). So why you would read me...? It is Kitowicz who should interest you, not me. Why haven't you read Kitowicz I linked to?
    BTW, if you read Kitowicz, you would find a gift, namely some positive info on Cossacks (they appreciated good cooking and they did keep order inside Sich itself), which again shows that he wasn't as biased as you would like him to be.. Good cooking as a way of advancement in ranks..! That's something.

    Nevertheless, what is surprising is that as soon as Cossacks came under Russian rule, they apparently saw the Polish Ukraine as prey (which surprises me too), which puts in question both their traditional depiction as relentless freedom fighters and their "progressive" [ in Marxist parlance] role as the spearhead of the "national consciousness" . In itself, it is actually interesting and not at all clear why modern Ukraine relies mainly on this rather both divisive and questionable Cossack mythology and not on the older strata of Ruthenian nation. It almost looks like someone wanted to advance stealthily the idea of gay Ukraine, growing Ukraine its "green beard" of the gay Zelenski and the gay Cossacks national mythology (heteros will insist on non-Sich Cossacks homesteads, whereas gays will see in Sich male-only lifestyle the gay way of life). Incidentally, articles like this started to appear:

    https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ukraines-unicorn-lgbtq-soldiers-head-war-2022-05-31/

    BTW, unicorn is not just a fancy animal from myths, but the old homosexual symbol as well (and of fallen angels too) - I would like to know who told Olekandr and Antonina to take it as their symbol. In future, I would expect titles like "Unicorn fighters of Ukraine blow up 66 tanks and kill 666 Russians in one month".

    And do you remember...? Unicorn was running every 5 minutes (3 times per 2 minutes in a trailer) through the screen during the (in)famous Russian movie "1612". You can even see the hidden, occult sense in calling hussars "angels" there - then, defeating hussars is like defeating angels, right? And who would like to defeat angels, hm....? Not the invisible D chief of all Evil guys, hm...? What was the name of this bad guy....? Dddddeee....Oh well, he has many names...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SvlKuzJ4GFU

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAOpvdqm6wg

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

  985. @Another Polish Perspective

    Hmm, all that time spent among men…
     
    I have already written about that few times, yet you again goes on with the old trope of men always being latent homosexuals... You seem not to read my comments, or you conveniently "forget" what I have written.

    Hussars were family men, doing their civic duty, spending their money, time and life; whereas being a Kossack was a profitable way of life, and not even fully military one (they were more like organized brigands), as in terms of military prowess they were not that great, usually losing to professionals. They certainly lacked in strategy, whatever their "studies".

    Here is the entire chapter of Kitowicz on Cossacks, for anyone who would like to check how based or biased he was:

    https://literat.ug.edu.pl/kitowic/006.htm

    Kitowicz makes clear they did not have some homesteads behind, their main peaceful activity was cow herding, not agriculture. He also says Zaporozohian Cossacks were replenished by runaways and captive young boys (which could be homosexual grooming as well), not by sons of older Cossacks. Zaprozohian Cossackdom was partly adoptive system, like Catholic Church: young captives, and runaways. Since these Cossacks mainly raided what Kitowicz calls 'osiadła Ukraina"/settled Ukraine, there would be some genetic homogeneity among captives, and thus Cossacks (the same for runaways).
    He gives etymology for "kurzeń" : it comes from "korzeń"(root), not from "kura" (hen).

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @AP

    I have already written about that few times, yet you again goes on with the old trope of men always being latent homosexuals

    The fact that you couldn’t detect the sarcasm and the mocking of the claim about Zaporozhians tells us more about your ability to understand what you read.

    Kossack was a profitable way of life, and not even fully military one (they were more like organized brigands), as in terms of military prowess they were not that great, usually losing to professionals.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zaporozhian_Cossacks

    By 1615 and 1625, Cossacks had managed to raze townships on the outskirts of Constantinople, forcing the Ottoman Sultan Murad IV to flee his palace.[10] His nephew, Sultan Mehmed IV, fared little better as the recipient of the legendary Reply of the Zaporozhian Cossacks, a ribald response to Mehmed’s insistence that the Cossacks submit to his authority..

    …At that time, the Cossacks were one of the finest military organizations in Europe, and were employed by Russian, Polish, and French empires.

    Britannica:

    https://www.britannica.com/place/Poland/The-Cossacks

    “In the Polish-Turkish war of 1620–21, the victory in the Battle of Chocim had been largely due to the participation of some 40,000 Zaporozhian Cossacks, whom Petro Konashevych-Sahaydachny had brought to aid the Poles. ”

    So we know that your knowledge of this part of history is quite poor and biased against Cossacks.

    Kitowicz makes clear they did not have some homesteads behind

    So now we have a concrete example of when he was wrong. If they did not have homesteads, how is it that their families settled the Danube and later the Kuban when the Cossacks were driven into exile?

    Indeed, the Cossacks had several thousand homesteads where they raised their families and joined them when not at war.

    So in summary, Kitowicz was a Polish Catholic at a time when Cossacks were murdering Poles and Catholics (thus, highly and understandably biased) who repeated dark fairytales that a biased anti-Cossack audience would enjoy, who is also wrong on facts that can actually be checked.

    • Replies: @Another Polish Perspective
    @AP


    By 1615 and 1625, Cossacks had managed to raze townships on the outskirts of Constantinople, forcing the Ottoman Sultan Murad IV to flee his palace
     
    No one in Poland asked them for that. It was one of reasons for the Turkish aggression in 1620 and ensuing war.
    It was also a low-hanging fruit, since unlike European cities, Istanbul wasn't walled at that time, did not have a military garrison and its inhabitants were banned from bearing weapons, even Jannisars there were wearing only canes. Their success was an outcome of surprise, which was their main tactic, and which is a favourite tactics of brigands too. You just had to cross Black Sea unnoticed.

    The battle of Chocim of 1621 is perhaps the greatest feat of Cossacks, but they were there under the command of one of the greatest Polish military commanders ever, Jan Karol Chodkiewicz. Well, the fact is that Cossacks fared much better when fighting as a part of Polish army. It is also the fact that Cossacks did not produce any eminent commanders themselves, which stresses the fact they weren't so interested in being professional military, and consequently lacked in terms of tactics, and above, strategy - knowledge of which is necessary for successful warfare.

    Replies: @AP, @sudden death

  986. @AP
    @Another Polish Perspective


    I have already written about that few times, yet you again goes on with the old trope of men always being latent homosexuals
     
    The fact that you couldn't detect the sarcasm and the mocking of the claim about Zaporozhians tells us more about your ability to understand what you read.

    Kossack was a profitable way of life, and not even fully military one (they were more like organized brigands), as in terms of military prowess they were not that great, usually losing to professionals.
     
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zaporozhian_Cossacks

    By 1615 and 1625, Cossacks had managed to raze townships on the outskirts of Constantinople, forcing the Ottoman Sultan Murad IV to flee his palace.[10] His nephew, Sultan Mehmed IV, fared little better as the recipient of the legendary Reply of the Zaporozhian Cossacks, a ribald response to Mehmed's insistence that the Cossacks submit to his authority..

    ...At that time, the Cossacks were one of the finest military organizations in Europe, and were employed by Russian, Polish, and French empires.

    Britannica:

    https://www.britannica.com/place/Poland/The-Cossacks

    "In the Polish-Turkish war of 1620–21, the victory in the Battle of Chocim had been largely due to the participation of some 40,000 Zaporozhian Cossacks, whom Petro Konashevych-Sahaydachny had brought to aid the Poles. "

    So we know that your knowledge of this part of history is quite poor and biased against Cossacks.


    Kitowicz makes clear they did not have some homesteads behind
     
    So now we have a concrete example of when he was wrong. If they did not have homesteads, how is it that their families settled the Danube and later the Kuban when the Cossacks were driven into exile?

    Indeed, the Cossacks had several thousand homesteads where they raised their families and joined them when not at war.

    So in summary, Kitowicz was a Polish Catholic at a time when Cossacks were murdering Poles and Catholics (thus, highly and understandably biased) who repeated dark fairytales that a biased anti-Cossack audience would enjoy, who is also wrong on facts that can actually be checked.

    Replies: @Another Polish Perspective

    By 1615 and 1625, Cossacks had managed to raze townships on the outskirts of Constantinople, forcing the Ottoman Sultan Murad IV to flee his palace

    No one in Poland asked them for that. It was one of reasons for the Turkish aggression in 1620 and ensuing war.
    It was also a low-hanging fruit, since unlike European cities, Istanbul wasn’t walled at that time, did not have a military garrison and its inhabitants were banned from bearing weapons, even Jannisars there were wearing only canes. Their success was an outcome of surprise, which was their main tactic, and which is a favourite tactics of brigands too. You just had to cross Black Sea unnoticed.

    The battle of Chocim of 1621 is perhaps the greatest feat of Cossacks, but they were there under the command of one of the greatest Polish military commanders ever, Jan Karol Chodkiewicz. Well, the fact is that Cossacks fared much better when fighting as a part of Polish army. It is also the fact that Cossacks did not produce any eminent commanders themselves, which stresses the fact they weren’t so interested in being professional military, and consequently lacked in terms of tactics, and above, strategy – knowledge of which is necessary for successful warfare.

    • Replies: @AP
    @Another Polish Perspective


    The battle of Chocim of 1621 is perhaps the greatest feat of Cossacks, but they were there under the command of one of the greatest Polish military commanders ever, Jan Karol Chodkiewicz
     
    They were an allied army led by Sahaidachny. They were not under Chodkiewicz's direct command.

    It is also the fact that Cossacks did not produce any eminent commanders themselves
     
    Sahaidachny and the traitor Khmelnytsky were formidable commanders.

    You are indeed a "trained historian."

    Sahaidachny:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petro_Konashevych-Sahaidachny



    In 1618, Sahaidachny joined the anti-Turkish Holy League.[6] While he was battling the Turks, the Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth requested his assistance for war with Muscovy (Russian Tsardom); they wanted him to provide Władysław IV Vasa, the King of the Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth, with 20,000 Cossacks near Moscow. Sahaidachny did, and seized the forts in the cities of Putivl, Kursk, Livny, Yelets and many others. Near Serpukhov Sahaidachny forced the Muscovite army to flee. The Muscovite troops under command of the voivode G. Volkonsky forced the Cossacks to take a detour, but were unable to stop the advance of the Cossacks regiments to Moscow. In September 1618 he forced to flee the army of another Muscovite nobleman, Vasilii Buturlin. Later, the united army of Jan Karol Chodkiewicz and Sahaidachny sieged Moscow and on 11 October unsuccessfully attempted to take the Arbat Gates.

    In late October, the army of Sahaidachny moved in a raid towards the south from Moscow. During this raid the army captured the city of Serpukhov, and in early December it captured Kaluga. John III Sobieski wrote that this successful raid caused panic among the Russians and forced them to conclude negotiations as soon as possible. The whole campaign finally culminated in December 1618 by signing the Truce of Deulino, resulting in the greatest territorial expansion of the Commonwealth.
    , @sudden death
    @Another Polish Perspective


    one of the greatest Polish military commanders ever, Jan Karol Chodkiewicz
     
    All major nobility in Middle ages was technically quite ethnically mixed, but House of Chodkiewicz was not a Polish, but Lithuanian noble family and themselves considered as such at the time:

    The theory was further developed by Maciej Stryjkowski (ca. 1547–1593) in his epic poem On the beginnings, accounts, virtues, marital and domestic affairs of the famed nations of Lithuania, Samogitia, Ruthenia (Polish: O początkach, wywodach, dzielnościach, sprawach rycerskich i domowych sławnego narodu litewskiego, żemojdzkiego i ruskiego). According to the poem, an envoy from the Golden Horde asked Grand Duke Gediminas (ruled 1316–1341) for a duel with a Lithuanian warrior.[14] In the case of the Lithuanian victory, Gediminas would stop paying tribute to the Tatar Khan. Samogitian Borejko (Lithuanian: Bareika) won the challenge and was generously rewarded by the Grand Duke. Later Chodko, one of the four sons of Borejko, commanded a raid against the Teutonic Knights in 1311.[15] The Lithuanians suffered a defeat and Gediminas's son Algirdas was injured. Chodko rescued Algirdas and tended his wounds. For this deed Chodko was awarded lands between the Narew and Neman Rivers.[15]

    Stryjkowski's work was ordered by the Radziwiłł and Chodkiewicz families. Thus it was very favorable to them and served their political interest. It is clear that the Chodkiewicz family wanted to established their noble pedigree since the beginning of the 14th century. More specifically, Jan Hieronimowicz Chodkiewicz wanted to show his ancestral ties with the Duchy of Samogitia, where he and his father Hieronim Chodkiewicz served as elders.
     
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chodko_Jurewicz
  987. @Another Polish Perspective
    @AP


    By 1615 and 1625, Cossacks had managed to raze townships on the outskirts of Constantinople, forcing the Ottoman Sultan Murad IV to flee his palace
     
    No one in Poland asked them for that. It was one of reasons for the Turkish aggression in 1620 and ensuing war.
    It was also a low-hanging fruit, since unlike European cities, Istanbul wasn't walled at that time, did not have a military garrison and its inhabitants were banned from bearing weapons, even Jannisars there were wearing only canes. Their success was an outcome of surprise, which was their main tactic, and which is a favourite tactics of brigands too. You just had to cross Black Sea unnoticed.

    The battle of Chocim of 1621 is perhaps the greatest feat of Cossacks, but they were there under the command of one of the greatest Polish military commanders ever, Jan Karol Chodkiewicz. Well, the fact is that Cossacks fared much better when fighting as a part of Polish army. It is also the fact that Cossacks did not produce any eminent commanders themselves, which stresses the fact they weren't so interested in being professional military, and consequently lacked in terms of tactics, and above, strategy - knowledge of which is necessary for successful warfare.

    Replies: @AP, @sudden death

    The battle of Chocim of 1621 is perhaps the greatest feat of Cossacks, but they were there under the command of one of the greatest Polish military commanders ever, Jan Karol Chodkiewicz

    They were an allied army led by Sahaidachny. They were not under Chodkiewicz’s direct command.

    It is also the fact that Cossacks did not produce any eminent commanders themselves

    Sahaidachny and the traitor Khmelnytsky were formidable commanders.

    You are indeed a “trained historian.”

    Sahaidachny:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petro_Konashevych-Sahaidachny

    [MORE]

    In 1618, Sahaidachny joined the anti-Turkish Holy League.[6] While he was battling the Turks, the Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth requested his assistance for war with Muscovy (Russian Tsardom); they wanted him to provide Władysław IV Vasa, the King of the Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth, with 20,000 Cossacks near Moscow. Sahaidachny did, and seized the forts in the cities of Putivl, Kursk, Livny, Yelets and many others. Near Serpukhov Sahaidachny forced the Muscovite army to flee. The Muscovite troops under command of the voivode G. Volkonsky forced the Cossacks to take a detour, but were unable to stop the advance of the Cossacks regiments to Moscow. In September 1618 he forced to flee the army of another Muscovite nobleman, Vasilii Buturlin. Later, the united army of Jan Karol Chodkiewicz and Sahaidachny sieged Moscow and on 11 October unsuccessfully attempted to take the Arbat Gates.

    In late October, the army of Sahaidachny moved in a raid towards the south from Moscow. During this raid the army captured the city of Serpukhov, and in early December it captured Kaluga. John III Sobieski wrote that this successful raid caused panic among the Russians and forced them to conclude negotiations as soon as possible. The whole campaign finally culminated in December 1618 by signing the Truce of Deulino, resulting in the greatest territorial expansion of the Commonwealth.

  988. @Another Polish Perspective
    @AP


    By 1615 and 1625, Cossacks had managed to raze townships on the outskirts of Constantinople, forcing the Ottoman Sultan Murad IV to flee his palace
     
    No one in Poland asked them for that. It was one of reasons for the Turkish aggression in 1620 and ensuing war.
    It was also a low-hanging fruit, since unlike European cities, Istanbul wasn't walled at that time, did not have a military garrison and its inhabitants were banned from bearing weapons, even Jannisars there were wearing only canes. Their success was an outcome of surprise, which was their main tactic, and which is a favourite tactics of brigands too. You just had to cross Black Sea unnoticed.

    The battle of Chocim of 1621 is perhaps the greatest feat of Cossacks, but they were there under the command of one of the greatest Polish military commanders ever, Jan Karol Chodkiewicz. Well, the fact is that Cossacks fared much better when fighting as a part of Polish army. It is also the fact that Cossacks did not produce any eminent commanders themselves, which stresses the fact they weren't so interested in being professional military, and consequently lacked in terms of tactics, and above, strategy - knowledge of which is necessary for successful warfare.

    Replies: @AP, @sudden death

    one of the greatest Polish military commanders ever, Jan Karol Chodkiewicz

    All major nobility in Middle ages was technically quite ethnically mixed, but House of Chodkiewicz was not a Polish, but Lithuanian noble family and themselves considered as such at the time:

    The theory was further developed by Maciej Stryjkowski (ca. 1547–1593) in his epic poem On the beginnings, accounts, virtues, marital and domestic affairs of the famed nations of Lithuania, Samogitia, Ruthenia (Polish: O początkach, wywodach, dzielnościach, sprawach rycerskich i domowych sławnego narodu litewskiego, żemojdzkiego i ruskiego). According to the poem, an envoy from the Golden Horde asked Grand Duke Gediminas (ruled 1316–1341) for a duel with a Lithuanian warrior.[14] In the case of the Lithuanian victory, Gediminas would stop paying tribute to the Tatar Khan. Samogitian Borejko (Lithuanian: Bareika) won the challenge and was generously rewarded by the Grand Duke. Later Chodko, one of the four sons of Borejko, commanded a raid against the Teutonic Knights in 1311.[15] The Lithuanians suffered a defeat and Gediminas’s son Algirdas was injured. Chodko rescued Algirdas and tended his wounds. For this deed Chodko was awarded lands between the Narew and Neman Rivers.[15]

    Stryjkowski’s work was ordered by the Radziwiłł and Chodkiewicz families. Thus it was very favorable to them and served their political interest. It is clear that the Chodkiewicz family wanted to established their noble pedigree since the beginning of the 14th century. More specifically, Jan Hieronimowicz Chodkiewicz wanted to show his ancestral ties with the Duchy of Samogitia, where he and his father Hieronim Chodkiewicz served as elders.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chodko_Jurewicz

  989. @Dmitry
    @LatW


    less civilized than what was going on in the Baltic villages
     
    Well, you are not far from IKEA country and Thunberg. He is from the border of Ukraine/Romania. You discuss Scandinavian interior design, he believes he is related to a dragon. When he was young, the most similar thing for online shopping, was probably going to the village's gypsies with a list of the objects for them to "find".

    Dragon guy may have been sitting all day playing guitar and smoking (and then acting pretentious). Of course, he got his ass kicked.

     

    It's a bit like saying to African people, they can "enjoy losing weight in their diet". After all, our neighbor is the Steve Sailer forum, where we are supposed feel bad about wealthy old Americans being scared of the "knock out game" on their journey to the golf course.

    That person was writing about his favorite friend killed in the school playground, so their face was destroyed and their fiance couldn't recognize them. If we believe his stories are true (who knows?), he was from a more dangerous ghetto than Eminem.

    I can imagine how much healthier and more robust those Ukrainians from the village were.
     
    Ukraine had relative high life expectancy until the 1960s, it was the same as Western Europe, so perhaps there had been some healthy traditions for this epoch.

    In Russia, people have been always smaller physically in the village than city. Although smaller people can be more strong. Other parts of the world, some of the most long living populations are peasants, possibly related to their smaller size.

    In Russia, there is a stereotypically a lot of generational differences as well. Grandparents from the village half of a metre smaller than grandchildren from the city.

    Jewish people have been confined to the city too much. I know it’s not their fault because the village Jews
     
    I wrote a post about this topic to Yahya which has been lost in the spam folder of this thread. I'll repost it later in the new thread if it doesn't show soon. I think it's more Jews are a people originally from the village and this is why Israel is today like overlapping of villages. Some is because of religion, religious Jews cannot live in buildings higher than about 3-4 levels high, if they don't want to climb on Shabbat. But the religion also requires the small community, where they know each other. So, if you look in Israel today, it is still a small village culture.

    Btw, have you noticed that the Jews in Israel are way more vigorous and physically tough than the EE Jews…? I hope this doesn’t offend you, it’s just something to keep in mind when you talk about this Dragon guy’s grievances.
     
    I agree Israeli culture likes a brutalism and violence in many areas, as you can expect from a country which is a warzone in the Middle East, that also prioritizes working class culture. Their national personality image is the cactus - with sharp spikes that make you bleed if you go close.

    Even with athletics, they like sports like women boxers - i.e. progressive values, but more brutal part of progressive (they win women boxing, not women football).
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBEbLeLo5Lc.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpXtBmRV_Dk.

    I don't know historically in Russia, but in the late 20th century there was duality of stereotype of Jews - there was a positive stereotype of nerds, but there were also the negative image of thieves/criminals.

    But in 21st century Jews in Russia are just a self-selecting club, or the evening school activity, for middle class people, with cultural interest. Those are not very strong identities, but becoming like evening classes, with some religious and emigration options. It's just a hobby.

    In Europe, I was talking to an African engineer (studying PhD in a mathematical topic) and he said he was going home after lunch "I have to go to synagogue". So, I was thinking, not just an engineer from Africa, but "co-incidentally" Jewish. This is when you see the self-selection for nerds.

    However, in Israel, it's not a special, self-selecting club of nerds, it's a religion with millions of people, in the mostly working class culture. And a zone of the Middle East (not a country for gentlemen of Vermont or New England) where violence is the popular solution

    Replies: @LatW

    That person was writing about his favorite friend killed in the school playground, so their face was destroyed and their fiance couldn’t recognize them. If we believe his stories are true (who knows?), he was from a more dangerous ghetto than Eminem.

    Now I do remember this story he shared, it was very sad. I wasn’t sure when it happened, it seems his story happened in mid 1990s? 1993-94 would’ve been the worst years that way. A lot of negative and tragic things were happening everywhere at that time, in the Baltics, too. There are a couple of very sad stories I have as well, but I never blamed anyone for that (I could’ve blamed the USSR for not creating more private enterprise the way Poland did and then the repercussions wouldn’t have been as severe), the way that this Dragon guy blames Ukraine for all the negatives that transpired after the collapse.

    [MORE]

    What I alluded to above with regards to guitar playing, is that there are always “jocks” vs “nerds” type of fights. He was acting way too much like a stuck up city nerd around these guys most probably. I’m not saying any of this is acceptable behavior, it’s just how it is.

    In Russia, people have been always smaller physically in the village than city.

    Wow, that’s pretty harsh. That’s totally unfair. In the Baltics it is not so. There are a lot of tall ones in the regions. Although it might be interesting to do such a study.

    Grandparents from the village half of a metre smaller than grandchildren from the city.

    That’s insane. Half a meter is a lot, 50cms?? I have noticed this too about parents having taller children but it’s usually something like 5-10cms max, it’s all anecdotal, but I have seen quite a lot of that for those born in the 1980s. Some of them are taller than their parents. But again, their grandparents may have been tallish already (or there could’ve been a tall ancestor somewhere before). It’s hard to tell, but it may be so, nutrition improved a lot (even though in the Baltics nutrition was always decent).

    I agree Israeli culture likes a brutalism and violence in many areas, as you can expect from a country which is a warzone in the Middle East, that also prioritizes working class culture.

    I didn’t mean brutality (I didn’t realize there was so much of that, including female boxing which is hideous), I meant the Jewish men in Israel appear to be more rugged, more robust, I guess? I remember seeing some delegation from Israel with security and those types were quite impressive, it overhauled my stereotype of the Jews completely (I had not seen Jews from Israel before that).

    However, in Israel, it’s not a special, self-selecting club of nerds, it’s a religion with millions of people, in the mostly working class culture. And a zone of the Middle East (not a country for gentlemen of Vermont or New England) where violence is the popular solution

    I really like that there is such a prevalence of these nerdy professions with the Jewish people, there are so many data scientists, sound engineers and other technical professions. But then there are also these more rugged types in Israel itself and at the IDF, it’s a great combination. They get to have the best of both worlds.

    • Replies: @AP
    @LatW


    “Grandparents from the village half of a metre smaller than grandchildren from the city.”

    That’s insane. Half a meter is a lot, 50cms?? I have noticed this too about parents having taller children but it’s usually something like 5-10cms max
     
    Maybe this reflects malnutrition in rural Soviet areas that did not exist in western Ukraine and the Baltics until the 1940s (western Ukraine wasn’t collectivized until 1948 or so).
    , @Dmitry
    @LatW

    @AP


    western Ukraine wasn’t collectivized until 1948

     

    I'm pretty sure villagers were smaller than city people also in prerevolutionary agriculture times. Ukraine has history with famines, which have the highest death rate for peasants, as cities usually have priority for food supply.


    @LatW


    s pretty harsh. That’s totally unfair. In the Baltics it is not
     
    Food security was prioritized for cities compared to villages, especially for the higher protein food. When there is food insecurity, the village will have less access to the higher protein food, which has an effect for later size of small children. This is why the grandparents can be smaller.

    But if you are eating buckwheat, cabbage and fish from the river. Is this less healthy than cans of stewed meat? In the long term, it's possible peasants' diet, excluding the deaths in famine, could have supported higher life expectancy than the more industrialized diets.


    Dragon guy blames Ukraine for all the negatives
     
    What is the real meaning of his story? He was talking about experience of the interethnic violence when Ukrainians were beating Russians. And 30 years later, the largest war in Europe this century, becomes Ukrainians and Russians, with (in Russian side) part justification to supposedly save Russians ("we need to bomb you to save you").

    It can be his stories are interesting, as even small shaking can be relevant when you see the later earthquakes.


    negative and tragic things were happening everywhere at that time, in the Baltics,
     
    Personally, my childhood was from a zone of relative interethnic tolerance and anti-racism. The more East traveling you are in the postsoviet space, the more there was national harmony. So, while there was plenty social instability, it didn't seem to have much nationalist components in the way people talked about it.

    But Ukraine as the border zone of nationality and empires, has been one of the worst tribal violence zones of 20th century Europe. This area was a center of holocaust in the Second World War, it was also center of massacre of Poles, there were famines and regular massacres in earlier decades (for example, in the civil war).

    Historians will see Ukraine like a place of "high seismic activity" for this, so the Dragon's believe about the national motivation for violence might not be always implausible.


    data scientists, sound engineers and other technical professions. But then there are also these more rugged types in Israel itself and at the IDF, it’s a great combination. They get to have the best of both worlds.

     

    If you want to pay your taxes to support millions of Haredim, or growing Bedouin population with the world's highest fertility rate, which doesn't receive training that will allow them to manage the modern economy. In Israel, it's called "sharing the burden" - the secular population is carrying most of the burden of the not-working population. Although I guess, in high-tech the salaries are high enough to justify some higher taxation, you still don't want to give it to those people.

    appear to be more rugged, more robust, I guess? I remember

     

    I think they look like working class people most places. Israel has more the culturally working class population compared to Western countries. Probably, this is partly because of the open borders immigration service for people with Jewish descent, while Western countries have restrictive immigration systems. This creates the lower class population and culture of Israel.

    So, educated Moroccan Jews emigrated to France and Canada. But the uneducated/working class Moroccan Jews emigrated to Israel. Educated Persian Jews emigrated to California, but the uneducated emigrated to Israel. Israel filters for the lower class immigrants, aside from religious motivated people.

    It's also such a kind of filter with the postsoviet immigrants in terms of their region of origin. My friends in Israel are from Saratov and Ulan-Ude..

    Whereas not so many people from Moscow seem to repatriate to Israel. If they will (like the "Camembert immigration"), they are also stereotyped to not survive in the Middle East and to return to snobby Moscow and complain about the lower class people that dominate Israel. I'm not sure if there is a study about this topic, but that is a theme of the journalists that write about it.


    I remember seeing some delegation from Israel with security and those types were quite impressive, it overhauled my stereotype of the Jews completely (I had not seen Jews from Israel before that

     

    Compared to people from the civilized Western countries, many of them can look more like that. But compared to populations from Syria, Lebanon, Palestine, Algeria? I think Israelis might be on average more gentle than Middle Eastern average.

    But their culture ideal is to be with your army reserve unit until you are 40 years old.
    The cultural norm is to be in a military unit, which is like the second family. If you are not sleeping in a tent with 20 other men, you can ultimately feel like not part of the society. Also a lot of the jobs can be distributed by the military connection.


    didn’t mean brutality (I didn’t realize there was so much of that, including female boxing which is hideous)

     

    They also "haze" women and throw quite few 18 year old girls to the dangerous jobs like the border guards in Jerusalem, so the teenage girls as guards are quite often being killed around the old city, or near the checkpoints.

    Generally, Middle Eastern culture is a "high testosterone" zone (let's say, in metaphorical sense, not talking about endocrinology here).

    Israel however has progressive ideals, including feminism (although it lost some of economic equality since the 1990s, but the social equality is still some extent of ideal there).

    There is some appearance of a culture where secular women can be equalizing by behaving less "stereotypically feminine". Instead of men behaving more like women, secular women behaving more like men.


    You can see roles of women the army. A lot of the jobs like the combat fitness instructors would be mostly women and there is a kind of horizontal, more amateur culture (it's not exactly like the Russian army). .
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2CHt2zMUtc8.

    , @Dmitry
    @LatW

    Comment might double with the spam filter

    @AP


    western Ukraine wasn’t collectivized until 1948

     

    I’m pretty sure villagers were smaller than city people also in prerevolutionary agriculture times. Ukraine has history with famines, which have the highest death rate for peasants, as cities usually have priority for food supply.

    @LatW


    s pretty harsh. That’s totally unfair. In the Baltics it is not

     

    Food security was prioritized for cities compared to villages, especially for the higher protein food. When there is food insecurity, the village will have less access to the higher protein food, which has an effect for later size of small children.

    But if you are eating buckwheat, cabbage and fish from the river. Is this less healthy than cans of stewed meat? In the long term, it’s possible peasants’ diet, excluding the deaths in famine, could have supported higher life expectancy than the more industrialized diets.


    Dragon guy blames Ukraine for all the negatives
     
    What is the real meaning of his story? He was talking about experience of the interethnic violence when Ukrainians were beating Russians. And 30 years later, the largest war in Europe this century, becomes Ukrainians and Russians, with (in Russian side) part justification to supposedly save Russians (“we need to bomb you to save you”).

    It can be his stories are interesting, as even small shaking can be relevant when you see the later earthquakes.


    negative and tragic things were happening everywhere at that time, in the Baltics,

     

    Personally, my childhood was from a zone of relative interethnic tolerance and anti-racism. The more East traveling you are in the postsoviet space, the more there was national harmony. So, while there was plenty social instability, instability didn’t seem to have much nationalist components.

    But Ukraine as the border zone of nationality and empires, has been one of the worse tribal violence zones of 20th century Europe. This area was a center of holocaust in the Second World War, it was also center of massacre of Poles, there were famines and regular massacres in earlier decades (for example, in the civil war).

    Historians will see Ukraine like a place of “high seismic activity” for this, so the Dragon’s believe about the national motivation for violence might not be always implausible.


    data scientists, sound engineers and other technical professions. But then there are also these more rugged types in Israel itself and at the IDF, it’s a great combination. They get to have the best of both worlds.
     
    If you want to pay your taxes to partly support millions of Haredim, or growing Bedouin population with the world’s highest fertility rate, which doesn’t receive training that will allow them to manage the modern economy. In Israel, it’s called “sharing the burden” – the secular population is carrying more of the burden of the not-working population. Although I guess, in high-tech the salaries are high enough to justify some higher taxation, you might not want to give so much of it to those people.

    appear to be more rugged, more robust, I guess? I remember

     

    I think they look like working class people most places. Israel has more the culturally working class population compared to Western countries. Probably, this is partly because of the open borders immigration service for people with Jewish descent, while Western countries have restrictive immigration systems.

    So, on average more educated Moroccan Jews emigrated to France and Canada. But the uneducated/working class Moroccan Jews emigrated to Israel. Educated Persian Jews emigrated to California, but the uneducated emigrated to Israel. Israel filters for the lower class immigrants, aside from religious motivated people.

    It’s also such a kind of filter with the postsoviet immigrants in terms of their region of origin. My friends in Israel are from Saratov and Ulan-Ude..

    Whereas not so many people from Moscow seem to repatriate to Israel. If they will (like the “Camembert immigration”), they are also stereotyped to not survive in the Middle East and to return to snobby Moscow and complain about the lower class people that dominate Israel. I’m not sure if there is a study about this topic, but that is a theme of the journalists that write about it.


    I remember seeing some delegation from Israel with security and those types were quite impressive, it overhauled my stereotype of the Jews completely (I had not seen Jews from Israel before that
     
    Compared to people from the civilized Western countries, many of them can look more like that. But compared to populations from Syria, Lebanon, Palestine, Algeria? I think Israelis might be on average more gentle than Middle Eastern average.

    But their culture ideal is to be with your army reserve unit until you are 40 years old.
    The cultural norm is to be in a military unit, which is like the second family. If you are not sleeping in a tent with 20 other men, you can ultimately feel like not part of the society. Also a lot of the jobs can be distributed by the military connection.


    didn’t mean brutality (I didn’t realize there was so much of that, including female boxing which is hideous)
     
    The culture also “hazes” women a bit and throw quite few 18 year old girls to the dangerous jobs like the border guards in Jerusalem, so the teenage girls as guards are quite often being killed around the old city, or near the checkpoints.

    Generally, Middle Eastern culture is a “high testosterone” zone (let’s say, in metaphorical sense, not talking about endocrinology here).

    Israel however has progressive ideals, including feminism (although it lost some of economic equality since the 1990s, but the social equality is still some extent of ideal there).

    There is some appearance of a culture where secular women can be equalizing by behaving less “stereotypically feminine”. Instead of men behaving more like women, secular women behaving more like men.

    You can see roles of women the army. A lot of the jobs like the combat fitness instructors would be mostly women and there is a kind of horizontal, more amateur culture (it’s not exactly like the Russian army). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2CHt2zMUtc8.

    Replies: @LatW

  990. @AnonfromTN
    @Wokechoke

    That was my thinking a few months ago. Now I think that only Russian parts of late unlamented Ukraine will rebuilt, with the most Nazified parts deliberately left as a dump.

    Replies: @A123, @216, @Jazman

    Western people especially from USA and UK love to say there is no Nazis in Banderistan
    Their argument is only 2 % voters are far right and there is Jewish president

  991. @LatW
    @Dmitry


    That person was writing about his favorite friend killed in the school playground, so their face was destroyed and their fiance couldn’t recognize them. If we believe his stories are true (who knows?), he was from a more dangerous ghetto than Eminem.
     
    Now I do remember this story he shared, it was very sad. I wasn't sure when it happened, it seems his story happened in mid 1990s? 1993-94 would've been the worst years that way. A lot of negative and tragic things were happening everywhere at that time, in the Baltics, too. There are a couple of very sad stories I have as well, but I never blamed anyone for that (I could've blamed the USSR for not creating more private enterprise the way Poland did and then the repercussions wouldn't have been as severe), the way that this Dragon guy blames Ukraine for all the negatives that transpired after the collapse.

    What I alluded to above with regards to guitar playing, is that there are always "jocks" vs "nerds" type of fights. He was acting way too much like a stuck up city nerd around these guys most probably. I'm not saying any of this is acceptable behavior, it's just how it is.

    In Russia, people have been always smaller physically in the village than city.
     
    Wow, that's pretty harsh. That's totally unfair. In the Baltics it is not so. There are a lot of tall ones in the regions. Although it might be interesting to do such a study.

    Grandparents from the village half of a metre smaller than grandchildren from the city.
     
    That's insane. Half a meter is a lot, 50cms?? I have noticed this too about parents having taller children but it's usually something like 5-10cms max, it's all anecdotal, but I have seen quite a lot of that for those born in the 1980s. Some of them are taller than their parents. But again, their grandparents may have been tallish already (or there could've been a tall ancestor somewhere before). It's hard to tell, but it may be so, nutrition improved a lot (even though in the Baltics nutrition was always decent).

    I agree Israeli culture likes a brutalism and violence in many areas, as you can expect from a country which is a warzone in the Middle East, that also prioritizes working class culture.
     
    I didn't mean brutality (I didn't realize there was so much of that, including female boxing which is hideous), I meant the Jewish men in Israel appear to be more rugged, more robust, I guess? I remember seeing some delegation from Israel with security and those types were quite impressive, it overhauled my stereotype of the Jews completely (I had not seen Jews from Israel before that).

    However, in Israel, it’s not a special, self-selecting club of nerds, it’s a religion with millions of people, in the mostly working class culture. And a zone of the Middle East (not a country for gentlemen of Vermont or New England) where violence is the popular solution
     
    I really like that there is such a prevalence of these nerdy professions with the Jewish people, there are so many data scientists, sound engineers and other technical professions. But then there are also these more rugged types in Israel itself and at the IDF, it's a great combination. They get to have the best of both worlds.

    Replies: @AP, @Dmitry, @Dmitry

    “Grandparents from the village half of a metre smaller than grandchildren from the city.”

    That’s insane. Half a meter is a lot, 50cms?? I have noticed this too about parents having taller children but it’s usually something like 5-10cms max

    Maybe this reflects malnutrition in rural Soviet areas that did not exist in western Ukraine and the Baltics until the 1940s (western Ukraine wasn’t collectivized until 1948 or so).

  992. @LatW
    @Dmitry


    That person was writing about his favorite friend killed in the school playground, so their face was destroyed and their fiance couldn’t recognize them. If we believe his stories are true (who knows?), he was from a more dangerous ghetto than Eminem.
     
    Now I do remember this story he shared, it was very sad. I wasn't sure when it happened, it seems his story happened in mid 1990s? 1993-94 would've been the worst years that way. A lot of negative and tragic things were happening everywhere at that time, in the Baltics, too. There are a couple of very sad stories I have as well, but I never blamed anyone for that (I could've blamed the USSR for not creating more private enterprise the way Poland did and then the repercussions wouldn't have been as severe), the way that this Dragon guy blames Ukraine for all the negatives that transpired after the collapse.

    What I alluded to above with regards to guitar playing, is that there are always "jocks" vs "nerds" type of fights. He was acting way too much like a stuck up city nerd around these guys most probably. I'm not saying any of this is acceptable behavior, it's just how it is.

    In Russia, people have been always smaller physically in the village than city.
     
    Wow, that's pretty harsh. That's totally unfair. In the Baltics it is not so. There are a lot of tall ones in the regions. Although it might be interesting to do such a study.

    Grandparents from the village half of a metre smaller than grandchildren from the city.
     
    That's insane. Half a meter is a lot, 50cms?? I have noticed this too about parents having taller children but it's usually something like 5-10cms max, it's all anecdotal, but I have seen quite a lot of that for those born in the 1980s. Some of them are taller than their parents. But again, their grandparents may have been tallish already (or there could've been a tall ancestor somewhere before). It's hard to tell, but it may be so, nutrition improved a lot (even though in the Baltics nutrition was always decent).

    I agree Israeli culture likes a brutalism and violence in many areas, as you can expect from a country which is a warzone in the Middle East, that also prioritizes working class culture.
     
    I didn't mean brutality (I didn't realize there was so much of that, including female boxing which is hideous), I meant the Jewish men in Israel appear to be more rugged, more robust, I guess? I remember seeing some delegation from Israel with security and those types were quite impressive, it overhauled my stereotype of the Jews completely (I had not seen Jews from Israel before that).

    However, in Israel, it’s not a special, self-selecting club of nerds, it’s a religion with millions of people, in the mostly working class culture. And a zone of the Middle East (not a country for gentlemen of Vermont or New England) where violence is the popular solution
     
    I really like that there is such a prevalence of these nerdy professions with the Jewish people, there are so many data scientists, sound engineers and other technical professions. But then there are also these more rugged types in Israel itself and at the IDF, it's a great combination. They get to have the best of both worlds.

    Replies: @AP, @Dmitry, @Dmitry

    western Ukraine wasn’t collectivized until 1948

    I’m pretty sure villagers were smaller than city people also in prerevolutionary agriculture times. Ukraine has history with famines, which have the highest death rate for peasants, as cities usually have priority for food supply.

    s pretty harsh. That’s totally unfair. In the Baltics it is not

    Food security was prioritized for cities compared to villages, especially for the higher protein food. When there is food insecurity, the village will have less access to the higher protein food, which has an effect for later size of small children. This is why the grandparents can be smaller.

    But if you are eating buckwheat, cabbage and fish from the river. Is this less healthy than cans of stewed meat? In the long term, it’s possible peasants’ diet, excluding the deaths in famine, could have supported higher life expectancy than the more industrialized diets.

    Dragon guy blames Ukraine for all the negatives

    What is the real meaning of his story? He was talking about experience of the interethnic violence when Ukrainians were beating Russians. And 30 years later, the largest war in Europe this century, becomes Ukrainians and Russians, with (in Russian side) part justification to supposedly save Russians (“we need to bomb you to save you”).

    It can be his stories are interesting, as even small shaking can be relevant when you see the later earthquakes.

    negative and tragic things were happening everywhere at that time, in the Baltics,

    Personally, my childhood was from a zone of relative interethnic tolerance and anti-racism. The more East traveling you are in the postsoviet space, the more there was national harmony. So, while there was plenty social instability, it didn’t seem to have much nationalist components in the way people talked about it.

    But Ukraine as the border zone of nationality and empires, has been one of the worst tribal violence zones of 20th century Europe. This area was a center of holocaust in the Second World War, it was also center of massacre of Poles, there were famines and regular massacres in earlier decades (for example, in the civil war).

    Historians will see Ukraine like a place of “high seismic activity” for this, so the Dragon’s believe about the national motivation for violence might not be always implausible.

    data scientists, sound engineers and other technical professions. But then there are also these more rugged types in Israel itself and at the IDF, it’s a great combination. They get to have the best of both worlds.

    If you want to pay your taxes to support millions of Haredim, or growing Bedouin population with the world’s highest fertility rate, which doesn’t receive training that will allow them to manage the modern economy. In Israel, it’s called “sharing the burden” – the secular population is carrying most of the burden of the not-working population. Although I guess, in high-tech the salaries are high enough to justify some higher taxation, you still don’t want to give it to those people.

    appear to be more rugged, more robust, I guess? I remember

    I think they look like working class people most places. Israel has more the culturally working class population compared to Western countries. Probably, this is partly because of the open borders immigration service for people with Jewish descent, while Western countries have restrictive immigration systems. This creates the lower class population and culture of Israel.

    So, educated Moroccan Jews emigrated to France and Canada. But the uneducated/working class Moroccan Jews emigrated to Israel. Educated Persian Jews emigrated to California, but the uneducated emigrated to Israel. Israel filters for the lower class immigrants, aside from religious motivated people.

    It’s also such a kind of filter with the postsoviet immigrants in terms of their region of origin. My friends in Israel are from Saratov and Ulan-Ude..

    Whereas not so many people from Moscow seem to repatriate to Israel. If they will (like the “Camembert immigration”), they are also stereotyped to not survive in the Middle East and to return to snobby Moscow and complain about the lower class people that dominate Israel. I’m not sure if there is a study about this topic, but that is a theme of the journalists that write about it.

    I remember seeing some delegation from Israel with security and those types were quite impressive, it overhauled my stereotype of the Jews completely (I had not seen Jews from Israel before that

    Compared to people from the civilized Western countries, many of them can look more like that. But compared to populations from Syria, Lebanon, Palestine, Algeria? I think Israelis might be on average more gentle than Middle Eastern average.

    But their culture ideal is to be with your army reserve unit until you are 40 years old.
    The cultural norm is to be in a military unit, which is like the second family. If you are not sleeping in a tent with 20 other men, you can ultimately feel like not part of the society. Also a lot of the jobs can be distributed by the military connection.

    didn’t mean brutality (I didn’t realize there was so much of that, including female boxing which is hideous)

    They also “haze” women and throw quite few 18 year old girls to the dangerous jobs like the border guards in Jerusalem, so the teenage girls as guards are quite often being killed around the old city, or near the checkpoints.

    Generally, Middle Eastern culture is a “high testosterone” zone (let’s say, in metaphorical sense, not talking about endocrinology here).

    Israel however has progressive ideals, including feminism (although it lost some of economic equality since the 1990s, but the social equality is still some extent of ideal there).

    There is some appearance of a culture where secular women can be equalizing by behaving less “stereotypically feminine”. Instead of men behaving more like women, secular women behaving more like men.

    You can see roles of women the army. A lot of the jobs like the combat fitness instructors would be mostly women and there is a kind of horizontal, more amateur culture (it’s not exactly like the Russian army). .
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2CHt2zMUtc8.

  993. @LatW
    @Dmitry


    That person was writing about his favorite friend killed in the school playground, so their face was destroyed and their fiance couldn’t recognize them. If we believe his stories are true (who knows?), he was from a more dangerous ghetto than Eminem.
     
    Now I do remember this story he shared, it was very sad. I wasn't sure when it happened, it seems his story happened in mid 1990s? 1993-94 would've been the worst years that way. A lot of negative and tragic things were happening everywhere at that time, in the Baltics, too. There are a couple of very sad stories I have as well, but I never blamed anyone for that (I could've blamed the USSR for not creating more private enterprise the way Poland did and then the repercussions wouldn't have been as severe), the way that this Dragon guy blames Ukraine for all the negatives that transpired after the collapse.

    What I alluded to above with regards to guitar playing, is that there are always "jocks" vs "nerds" type of fights. He was acting way too much like a stuck up city nerd around these guys most probably. I'm not saying any of this is acceptable behavior, it's just how it is.

    In Russia, people have been always smaller physically in the village than city.
     
    Wow, that's pretty harsh. That's totally unfair. In the Baltics it is not so. There are a lot of tall ones in the regions. Although it might be interesting to do such a study.

    Grandparents from the village half of a metre smaller than grandchildren from the city.
     
    That's insane. Half a meter is a lot, 50cms?? I have noticed this too about parents having taller children but it's usually something like 5-10cms max, it's all anecdotal, but I have seen quite a lot of that for those born in the 1980s. Some of them are taller than their parents. But again, their grandparents may have been tallish already (or there could've been a tall ancestor somewhere before). It's hard to tell, but it may be so, nutrition improved a lot (even though in the Baltics nutrition was always decent).

    I agree Israeli culture likes a brutalism and violence in many areas, as you can expect from a country which is a warzone in the Middle East, that also prioritizes working class culture.
     
    I didn't mean brutality (I didn't realize there was so much of that, including female boxing which is hideous), I meant the Jewish men in Israel appear to be more rugged, more robust, I guess? I remember seeing some delegation from Israel with security and those types were quite impressive, it overhauled my stereotype of the Jews completely (I had not seen Jews from Israel before that).

    However, in Israel, it’s not a special, self-selecting club of nerds, it’s a religion with millions of people, in the mostly working class culture. And a zone of the Middle East (not a country for gentlemen of Vermont or New England) where violence is the popular solution
     
    I really like that there is such a prevalence of these nerdy professions with the Jewish people, there are so many data scientists, sound engineers and other technical professions. But then there are also these more rugged types in Israel itself and at the IDF, it's a great combination. They get to have the best of both worlds.

    Replies: @AP, @Dmitry, @Dmitry

    Comment might double with the spam filter

    western Ukraine wasn’t collectivized until 1948

    I’m pretty sure villagers were smaller than city people also in prerevolutionary agriculture times. Ukraine has history with famines, which have the highest death rate for peasants, as cities usually have priority for food supply.

    s pretty harsh. That’s totally unfair. In the Baltics it is not

    Food security was prioritized for cities compared to villages, especially for the higher protein food. When there is food insecurity, the village will have less access to the higher protein food, which has an effect for later size of small children.

    But if you are eating buckwheat, cabbage and fish from the river. Is this less healthy than cans of stewed meat? In the long term, it’s possible peasants’ diet, excluding the deaths in famine, could have supported higher life expectancy than the more industrialized diets.

    Dragon guy blames Ukraine for all the negatives

    What is the real meaning of his story? He was talking about experience of the interethnic violence when Ukrainians were beating Russians. And 30 years later, the largest war in Europe this century, becomes Ukrainians and Russians, with (in Russian side) part justification to supposedly save Russians (“we need to bomb you to save you”).

    It can be his stories are interesting, as even small shaking can be relevant when you see the later earthquakes.

    negative and tragic things were happening everywhere at that time, in the Baltics,

    Personally, my childhood was from a zone of relative interethnic tolerance and anti-racism. The more East traveling you are in the postsoviet space, the more there was national harmony. So, while there was plenty social instability, instability didn’t seem to have much nationalist components.

    But Ukraine as the border zone of nationality and empires, has been one of the worse tribal violence zones of 20th century Europe. This area was a center of holocaust in the Second World War, it was also center of massacre of Poles, there were famines and regular massacres in earlier decades (for example, in the civil war).

    Historians will see Ukraine like a place of “high seismic activity” for this, so the Dragon’s believe about the national motivation for violence might not be always implausible.

    data scientists, sound engineers and other technical professions. But then there are also these more rugged types in Israel itself and at the IDF, it’s a great combination. They get to have the best of both worlds.

    If you want to pay your taxes to partly support millions of Haredim, or growing Bedouin population with the world’s highest fertility rate, which doesn’t receive training that will allow them to manage the modern economy. In Israel, it’s called “sharing the burden” – the secular population is carrying more of the burden of the not-working population. Although I guess, in high-tech the salaries are high enough to justify some higher taxation, you might not want to give so much of it to those people.

    appear to be more rugged, more robust, I guess? I remember

    I think they look like working class people most places. Israel has more the culturally working class population compared to Western countries. Probably, this is partly because of the open borders immigration service for people with Jewish descent, while Western countries have restrictive immigration systems.

    So, on average more educated Moroccan Jews emigrated to France and Canada. But the uneducated/working class Moroccan Jews emigrated to Israel. Educated Persian Jews emigrated to California, but the uneducated emigrated to Israel. Israel filters for the lower class immigrants, aside from religious motivated people.

    It’s also such a kind of filter with the postsoviet immigrants in terms of their region of origin. My friends in Israel are from Saratov and Ulan-Ude..

    Whereas not so many people from Moscow seem to repatriate to Israel. If they will (like the “Camembert immigration”), they are also stereotyped to not survive in the Middle East and to return to snobby Moscow and complain about the lower class people that dominate Israel. I’m not sure if there is a study about this topic, but that is a theme of the journalists that write about it.

    I remember seeing some delegation from Israel with security and those types were quite impressive, it overhauled my stereotype of the Jews completely (I had not seen Jews from Israel before that

    Compared to people from the civilized Western countries, many of them can look more like that. But compared to populations from Syria, Lebanon, Palestine, Algeria? I think Israelis might be on average more gentle than Middle Eastern average.

    But their culture ideal is to be with your army reserve unit until you are 40 years old.
    The cultural norm is to be in a military unit, which is like the second family. If you are not sleeping in a tent with 20 other men, you can ultimately feel like not part of the society. Also a lot of the jobs can be distributed by the military connection.

    didn’t mean brutality (I didn’t realize there was so much of that, including female boxing which is hideous)

    The culture also “hazes” women a bit and throw quite few 18 year old girls to the dangerous jobs like the border guards in Jerusalem, so the teenage girls as guards are quite often being killed around the old city, or near the checkpoints.

    Generally, Middle Eastern culture is a “high testosterone” zone (let’s say, in metaphorical sense, not talking about endocrinology here).

    Israel however has progressive ideals, including feminism (although it lost some of economic equality since the 1990s, but the social equality is still some extent of ideal there).

    There is some appearance of a culture where secular women can be equalizing by behaving less “stereotypically feminine”. Instead of men behaving more like women, secular women behaving more like men.

    You can see roles of women the army. A lot of the jobs like the combat fitness instructors would be mostly women and there is a kind of horizontal, more amateur culture (it’s not exactly like the Russian army). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2CHt2zMUtc8.

    • Replies: @LatW
    @Dmitry


    Food security was prioritized for cities compared to villages, especially for the higher protein food.
     
    I know, that's why I said it was harsh and unfair. It's not a good system. Basically, in the village, one ends up working two shifts - one for the collective farm and then at one's home garden to get food or supplement it. Plus family obligations. That's a lot!

    But if you are eating buckwheat, cabbage and fish from the river. Is this less healthy than cans of stewed meat?
     
    No, it can be equally good or better and that's what I said above. That's why in the West they now have the locavore movement, source food from very close by and as organic / clean as possible.
    Buckwheat is seen in the West as a somewhat "special" grain that is not that common.

    could have supported higher life expectancy than the more industrialized diets.
     
    I know several folks who lived in the village and lived very long (even past 85), and I've heard of such folks from the past as well.

    What is the real meaning of his story? He was talking about experience of the interethnic violence when Ukrainians were beating Russians.
     
    What matters is who was beating who where - were Ukrainians doing this in Russia? No. I've heard many stories from older guys about how the Russians in Latvia would gang up on Latvians, several Russian guys would attack one Latvian guy. Because one to one they could easily lose as Latvians are typically more robust. It's a BS move. But all of this fizzled out by mid to late 1990s.

    And 30 years later, the largest war in Europe this century, becomes Ukrainians and Russians,
     
    Again, same question, on whose soil is it going on? Who attacked who... I know it's not that simple but physically it is so right now. The Ukrainians didn't always behave well either (maybe they had no choice). But as I said, it all starts with calling one party "fake and gay", "your language doesn't exist", "your nation is artificial", etc etc.
    But even I didn't expect for it to be this big. Hopefully, it's over by the end of the summer (or autumn).

    with (in Russian side) part justification to supposedly save Russians (“we need to bomb you to save you”).
     
    That goes to show they care about something else, not the people or "saving Russians" for real. They mostly just care about claiming territory, resources and grandeur / posturing.

    It can be his stories are interesting, as even small shaking can be relevant when you see the later earthquakes.
     
    Very true. It all starts with very little. It's important to take it out at the right time. Or - even better, to not have such differences in one place. Better to have a monocultural place. If you can't handle more than one and build an appropriate balance. The Ukrainians just wanted to be left alone.

    Personally, my childhood was from a zone of relative interethnic tolerance and anti-racism.
     
    Me too. But these couple of sad cases from the early 1990s were not interethnic, it wasn't that prevalent, these were purely socioeconomic cases, unfortunately.

    The more East traveling you are in the postsoviet space, the more there was national harmony.
     
    Because you start having some sort of a homogeneity with Slavic nations there, other nations around the periphery are not Slavic. I already told you that before the 1950s or even later, nobody in the Baltic States spoke Russian at all. All that time spent in the Empire left them intact that way, despite of some efforts in the 19th century (and you know how that ended). There were Germans there and the local cultures. And there was "harmony", I guess you can call it, because ethnicity was preserved in a somewhat stable manner (the social issues became more important). But after 1945 they started to mess with ethnicity, so again trouble started by late 1980s. And because they were messing with the ethnic space, there were such skirmishes and turf wars. But where it was homogenous, there were still turf wars between villages. It's just how younger guys act.

    But Ukraine as the border zone of nationality and empires, has been one of the worse tribal violence zones of 20th century Europe.
     
    The reason for that is because outsiders treated Ukraine as a "border zone" and didn't leave the Ukrainians alone. Basically it is systematic and savage external violence against the Ukrainians in many cases (not all, but in many).

    Historians will see Ukraine like a place of “high seismic activity” for this, so the Dragon’s believe about the national motivation for violence might not be always implausible.

     

    I believe it's totally plausible. That's why leaving Ukraine alone would have been best. Let's not have Ukraine as a "high seismic activity zone" anymore after this war, let's make this final. Let Ukraine not be a "border land" anymore and be a center of its own. Let's move on from this.

    Whereas not so many people from Moscow seem to repatriate to Israel. If they will (like the “Camembert immigration”)
     
    Maybe better educated Russian Jews prefer to go to the US? Although I'm aware that Israel now has excellent schools as well as tech startups so maybe that could be attractive (and they're working to hold their own people from going to Google in Zurich, etc). But as you say, the safety issue is there.

    they are also stereotyped to not survive in the Middle East and to return to snobby Moscow and complain about the lower class people that dominate Israel
     
    That ticks me off. I've seen such Moscovite behavior. It's their entitled attitude. Then stay in Moscow if you can't handle the world out there. But they feel that they are owed. Of course, not all Moscovites are like that, but there is a small trend. We have it a bit in my home town as well, but it is mollyfied.

    Compared to people from the civilized Western countries, many of them can look more like that. But compared to populations from Syria, Lebanon, Palestine, Algeria? I think Israelis might be on average more gentle than Middle Eastern average.
     
    What I meant that he was taller than usual and seemed more athletic, more "filled in", muscular, I guess. But it's normal, because he was a security guard. But he still looked somewhat refined, a little bit like the Italian Carabinieri, just in a suit. It's one of those security guys who wears a suit but carries a pistol. So it made me discover that Israel does cultivate a more athletic type as well.
    He was almost as attractive as the Latvian guys in that same league, just with darker hair.

    But their culture ideal is to be with your army reserve unit until you are 40 years old.
    The cultural norm is to be in a military unit, which is like the second family.
     
    I know, it seems quite hard as a lifestyle. Also, people who have good jobs often have IDF in their background.

    The culture also “hazes” women a bit and throw quite few 18 year old girls to the dangerous jobs like the border guards in Jerusalem, so the teenage girls as guards are quite often being killed around the old city, or near the checkpoints.
     
    That's really harsh, going to pick up your dead daughter. It's a risk letting your daughter in the military, but I can see why they do it. It's a big deal though.

    There is some appearance of a culture where secular women can be equalizing by behaving less “stereotypically feminine”. Instead of men behaving more like women, secular women behaving more like men.
     
    Yea, I understand that dynamic. I've seen it in the States, too. Ugh.

    Well, as to the kickboxing girl, she is actually good, a young robust woman. That's very commendable, it's just generally not good to have a sport where a woman is hit on the face (or hit at all, anywhere), and to hit another woman is off-putting. But from the purely athletic point of view, it is good. My sister who is still very athletic also does kickboxing as a part of her routine (she is successful so she needs to work out a lot to have the stamina), but she doesn't fight another woman, of course, but practices with a private coach, the coach holds up those pads and she kicks them. I'm sure that's how the Israeli girl practices, too.
  994. @Mr. Hack
    @Another Polish Perspective


    He also says Zaporozohian Cossacks were replenished by runaways and captive young boys (which could be homosexual grooming as well), not by sons of older Cossacks. Zaprozohian Cossackdom was partly adoptive system, like Catholic Church: young captives, and runaways.
     
    And you apparently believe this account? Nowhere else is anything like this alluded to, only by Fr. Kitowicz?

    Since these Cossacks mainly raided what Kitowicz calls ‘osiadła Ukraina”/settled Ukraine, there would be some genetic homogeneity among captives, and thus Cossacks (the same for runaways).
     
    Your good Father Kitowicz seems to have gotten his directions mixed up on this one as well. The Zaporozhian cossacks were not raiding their own people, their khutors and villages in the steppes, but further south where the Tatars and Turks came from. This is elementary knowledge, and you should know better being a supposed qualified "historian". BTW, have you actually had anything that you've written published?

    Replies: @Another Polish Perspective

    BTW, have you actually had anything that you’ve written published?

    Yes, but not about Ukraine. This is not my field. I have provided you with info I got during my history studies at university, in other words, received knowledge. On the opposite side, I was presented with some hearsay opinion of Ukrainian Academy of Science by people who thus are not professional historians of Ukraine too (or professional historians at all).

    Kitowicz writes that Sich was at that time already under Moscow rule and Cossacks apparently raided mainly Polish Ukraine at that time, at their own free will, however, there weren’t any orders from Moscow. I suppose Ukraine was easier target since it was easier to hide there for them than among Tatars (which they raided too, of course, but apparently less, and only close to the border). Again, this fact reveals that Zaporozhian Cossacks did not see majority of people living in Ukraine (mostly Rusins, Poles, Jews) as their brothers – surprising but understandable if they were primarily group based on adoption, and not on kinship. Even your denial about this is based on this simple truth – you don’t rob your kin. So either theses Cossacks didn’t see other Ukrainians as their kin, or it was relatively unimportant for them, as, for example, would be for gays, for whom other gays are often reckoned to be more important than their own nationals (similarly to Jews, gays are often charged with the double loyalty, aka “gay networks”).

    But you obviously didn’t even try to read Kitowicz (easy to do with Google translator), or you would know it! It was a test (I specially did not include the info you were tested on) and you didn’t pass (the omnipresent and indefatigable AP too). So why you would read me…? It is Kitowicz who should interest you, not me. Why haven’t you read Kitowicz I linked to?
    BTW, if you read Kitowicz, you would find a gift, namely some positive info on Cossacks (they appreciated good cooking and they did keep order inside Sich itself), which again shows that he wasn’t as biased as you would like him to be.. Good cooking as a way of advancement in ranks..! That’s something.

    Nevertheless, what is surprising is that as soon as Cossacks came under Russian rule, they apparently saw the Polish Ukraine as prey (which surprises me too), which puts in question both their traditional depiction as relentless freedom fighters and their “progressive” [ in Marxist parlance] role as the spearhead of the “national consciousness” . In itself, it is actually interesting and not at all clear why modern Ukraine relies mainly on this rather both divisive and questionable Cossack mythology and not on the older strata of Ruthenian nation. It almost looks like someone wanted to advance stealthily the idea of gay Ukraine, growing Ukraine its “green beard” of the gay Zelenski and the gay Cossacks national mythology (heteros will insist on non-Sich Cossacks homesteads, whereas gays will see in Sich male-only lifestyle the gay way of life). Incidentally, articles like this started to appear:

    https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ukraines-unicorn-lgbtq-soldiers-head-war-2022-05-31/

    BTW, unicorn is not just a fancy animal from myths, but the old homosexual symbol as well (and of fallen angels too) – I would like to know who told Olekandr and Antonina to take it as their symbol. In future, I would expect titles like “Unicorn fighters of Ukraine blow up 66 tanks and kill 666 Russians in one month”.

    And do you remember…? Unicorn was running every 5 minutes (3 times per 2 minutes in a trailer) through the screen during the (in)famous Russian movie “1612”. You can even see the hidden, occult sense in calling hussars “angels” there – then, defeating hussars is like defeating angels, right? And who would like to defeat angels, hm….? Not the invisible D chief of all Evil guys, hm…? What was the name of this bad guy….? Dddddeee….Oh well, he has many names…

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @Another Polish Perspective

    I don't have the time (nor the desire) to spend a lot of time researching all of your bizarre claims and innuendos about Ukraine, cossacks...and unicorns (sorry). I wish you luck in all of your endeavors, but from what I've read so far, I'd suggest that you stick to researching and publishing things related to your own field. Pinning any sort of success on the murmurings of one old Polish Roman Catholic priest and on some modern historical fantasy film is a fruitless endeavor, IMHO. Although you like to throw around a lot of half baked and incredible stories, I'm sorry to say that your not in any serious contention for becoming the heir apparent of Umberto Eco. But do keep on trying! I'll be the first in line to read anything that you print*, especially if it's about Ukraine/Poland. Also, please don't feel dejected by my severe criticism here.I see that there seems to be at least one interesting looking book written about Kitowicz written in the English language, that I might read someday in the future, all thanks to you,

    Printing does not include self serving comments posted within UNZ. :-)

    Replies: @Another Polish Perspective

  995. @Another Polish Perspective
    @Mr. Hack

    BTW, have you actually had anything that you’ve written published?
     

    Yes, but not about Ukraine. This is not my field. I have provided you with info I got during my history studies at university, in other words, received knowledge. On the opposite side, I was presented with some hearsay opinion of Ukrainian Academy of Science by people who thus are not professional historians of Ukraine too (or professional historians at all).

    Kitowicz writes that Sich was at that time already under Moscow rule and Cossacks apparently raided mainly Polish Ukraine at that time, at their own free will, however, there weren't any orders from Moscow. I suppose Ukraine was easier target since it was easier to hide there for them than among Tatars (which they raided too, of course, but apparently less, and only close to the border). Again, this fact reveals that Zaporozhian Cossacks did not see majority of people living in Ukraine (mostly Rusins, Poles, Jews) as their brothers - surprising but understandable if they were primarily group based on adoption, and not on kinship. Even your denial about this is based on this simple truth - you don't rob your kin. So either theses Cossacks didn't see other Ukrainians as their kin, or it was relatively unimportant for them, as, for example, would be for gays, for whom other gays are often reckoned to be more important than their own nationals (similarly to Jews, gays are often charged with the double loyalty, aka "gay networks").


    But you obviously didn't even try to read Kitowicz (easy to do with Google translator), or you would know it! It was a test (I specially did not include the info you were tested on) and you didn't pass (the omnipresent and indefatigable AP too). So why you would read me...? It is Kitowicz who should interest you, not me. Why haven't you read Kitowicz I linked to?
    BTW, if you read Kitowicz, you would find a gift, namely some positive info on Cossacks (they appreciated good cooking and they did keep order inside Sich itself), which again shows that he wasn't as biased as you would like him to be.. Good cooking as a way of advancement in ranks..! That's something.

    Nevertheless, what is surprising is that as soon as Cossacks came under Russian rule, they apparently saw the Polish Ukraine as prey (which surprises me too), which puts in question both their traditional depiction as relentless freedom fighters and their "progressive" [ in Marxist parlance] role as the spearhead of the "national consciousness" . In itself, it is actually interesting and not at all clear why modern Ukraine relies mainly on this rather both divisive and questionable Cossack mythology and not on the older strata of Ruthenian nation. It almost looks like someone wanted to advance stealthily the idea of gay Ukraine, growing Ukraine its "green beard" of the gay Zelenski and the gay Cossacks national mythology (heteros will insist on non-Sich Cossacks homesteads, whereas gays will see in Sich male-only lifestyle the gay way of life). Incidentally, articles like this started to appear:

    https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ukraines-unicorn-lgbtq-soldiers-head-war-2022-05-31/

    BTW, unicorn is not just a fancy animal from myths, but the old homosexual symbol as well (and of fallen angels too) - I would like to know who told Olekandr and Antonina to take it as their symbol. In future, I would expect titles like "Unicorn fighters of Ukraine blow up 66 tanks and kill 666 Russians in one month".

    And do you remember...? Unicorn was running every 5 minutes (3 times per 2 minutes in a trailer) through the screen during the (in)famous Russian movie "1612". You can even see the hidden, occult sense in calling hussars "angels" there - then, defeating hussars is like defeating angels, right? And who would like to defeat angels, hm....? Not the invisible D chief of all Evil guys, hm...? What was the name of this bad guy....? Dddddeee....Oh well, he has many names...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SvlKuzJ4GFU

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAOpvdqm6wg

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    I don’t have the time (nor the desire) to spend a lot of time researching all of your bizarre claims and innuendos about Ukraine, cossacks…and unicorns (sorry). I wish you luck in all of your endeavors, but from what I’ve read so far, I’d suggest that you stick to researching and publishing things related to your own field. Pinning any sort of success on the murmurings of one old Polish Roman Catholic priest and on some modern historical fantasy film is a fruitless endeavor, IMHO. Although you like to throw around a lot of half baked and incredible stories, I’m sorry to say that your not in any serious contention for becoming the heir apparent of Umberto Eco. But do keep on trying! I’ll be the first in line to read anything that you print*, especially if it’s about Ukraine/Poland. Also, please don’t feel dejected by my severe criticism here.I see that there seems to be at least one interesting looking book written about Kitowicz written in the English language, that I might read someday in the future, all thanks to you,

    Printing does not include self serving comments posted within UNZ. 🙂

    • Replies: @Another Polish Perspective
    @Mr. Hack


    Printing does not include self serving comments posted within UNZ.
     
    I was once a member of another forum(first open, then closed) which was taken offline during the early covid days. But some forum members appreciated my comments enough to have saved all of them before the day the forum was closed.
    I guess my memory will be kept more alive through these comments than through those few obscure yet printed articles I wrote.
  996. @Mr. Hack
    @Another Polish Perspective

    I don't have the time (nor the desire) to spend a lot of time researching all of your bizarre claims and innuendos about Ukraine, cossacks...and unicorns (sorry). I wish you luck in all of your endeavors, but from what I've read so far, I'd suggest that you stick to researching and publishing things related to your own field. Pinning any sort of success on the murmurings of one old Polish Roman Catholic priest and on some modern historical fantasy film is a fruitless endeavor, IMHO. Although you like to throw around a lot of half baked and incredible stories, I'm sorry to say that your not in any serious contention for becoming the heir apparent of Umberto Eco. But do keep on trying! I'll be the first in line to read anything that you print*, especially if it's about Ukraine/Poland. Also, please don't feel dejected by my severe criticism here.I see that there seems to be at least one interesting looking book written about Kitowicz written in the English language, that I might read someday in the future, all thanks to you,

    Printing does not include self serving comments posted within UNZ. :-)

    Replies: @Another Polish Perspective

    Printing does not include self serving comments posted within UNZ.

    I was once a member of another forum(first open, then closed) which was taken offline during the early covid days. But some forum members appreciated my comments enough to have saved all of them before the day the forum was closed.
    I guess my memory will be kept more alive through these comments than through those few obscure yet printed articles I wrote.

  997. @Dmitry
    @LatW

    Comment might double with the spam filter

    @AP


    western Ukraine wasn’t collectivized until 1948

     

    I’m pretty sure villagers were smaller than city people also in prerevolutionary agriculture times. Ukraine has history with famines, which have the highest death rate for peasants, as cities usually have priority for food supply.

    @LatW


    s pretty harsh. That’s totally unfair. In the Baltics it is not

     

    Food security was prioritized for cities compared to villages, especially for the higher protein food. When there is food insecurity, the village will have less access to the higher protein food, which has an effect for later size of small children.

    But if you are eating buckwheat, cabbage and fish from the river. Is this less healthy than cans of stewed meat? In the long term, it’s possible peasants’ diet, excluding the deaths in famine, could have supported higher life expectancy than the more industrialized diets.


    Dragon guy blames Ukraine for all the negatives
     
    What is the real meaning of his story? He was talking about experience of the interethnic violence when Ukrainians were beating Russians. And 30 years later, the largest war in Europe this century, becomes Ukrainians and Russians, with (in Russian side) part justification to supposedly save Russians (“we need to bomb you to save you”).

    It can be his stories are interesting, as even small shaking can be relevant when you see the later earthquakes.


    negative and tragic things were happening everywhere at that time, in the Baltics,

     

    Personally, my childhood was from a zone of relative interethnic tolerance and anti-racism. The more East traveling you are in the postsoviet space, the more there was national harmony. So, while there was plenty social instability, instability didn’t seem to have much nationalist components.

    But Ukraine as the border zone of nationality and empires, has been one of the worse tribal violence zones of 20th century Europe. This area was a center of holocaust in the Second World War, it was also center of massacre of Poles, there were famines and regular massacres in earlier decades (for example, in the civil war).

    Historians will see Ukraine like a place of “high seismic activity” for this, so the Dragon’s believe about the national motivation for violence might not be always implausible.


    data scientists, sound engineers and other technical professions. But then there are also these more rugged types in Israel itself and at the IDF, it’s a great combination. They get to have the best of both worlds.
     
    If you want to pay your taxes to partly support millions of Haredim, or growing Bedouin population with the world’s highest fertility rate, which doesn’t receive training that will allow them to manage the modern economy. In Israel, it’s called “sharing the burden” – the secular population is carrying more of the burden of the not-working population. Although I guess, in high-tech the salaries are high enough to justify some higher taxation, you might not want to give so much of it to those people.

    appear to be more rugged, more robust, I guess? I remember

     

    I think they look like working class people most places. Israel has more the culturally working class population compared to Western countries. Probably, this is partly because of the open borders immigration service for people with Jewish descent, while Western countries have restrictive immigration systems.

    So, on average more educated Moroccan Jews emigrated to France and Canada. But the uneducated/working class Moroccan Jews emigrated to Israel. Educated Persian Jews emigrated to California, but the uneducated emigrated to Israel. Israel filters for the lower class immigrants, aside from religious motivated people.

    It’s also such a kind of filter with the postsoviet immigrants in terms of their region of origin. My friends in Israel are from Saratov and Ulan-Ude..

    Whereas not so many people from Moscow seem to repatriate to Israel. If they will (like the “Camembert immigration”), they are also stereotyped to not survive in the Middle East and to return to snobby Moscow and complain about the lower class people that dominate Israel. I’m not sure if there is a study about this topic, but that is a theme of the journalists that write about it.


    I remember seeing some delegation from Israel with security and those types were quite impressive, it overhauled my stereotype of the Jews completely (I had not seen Jews from Israel before that
     
    Compared to people from the civilized Western countries, many of them can look more like that. But compared to populations from Syria, Lebanon, Palestine, Algeria? I think Israelis might be on average more gentle than Middle Eastern average.

    But their culture ideal is to be with your army reserve unit until you are 40 years old.
    The cultural norm is to be in a military unit, which is like the second family. If you are not sleeping in a tent with 20 other men, you can ultimately feel like not part of the society. Also a lot of the jobs can be distributed by the military connection.


    didn’t mean brutality (I didn’t realize there was so much of that, including female boxing which is hideous)
     
    The culture also “hazes” women a bit and throw quite few 18 year old girls to the dangerous jobs like the border guards in Jerusalem, so the teenage girls as guards are quite often being killed around the old city, or near the checkpoints.

    Generally, Middle Eastern culture is a “high testosterone” zone (let’s say, in metaphorical sense, not talking about endocrinology here).

    Israel however has progressive ideals, including feminism (although it lost some of economic equality since the 1990s, but the social equality is still some extent of ideal there).

    There is some appearance of a culture where secular women can be equalizing by behaving less “stereotypically feminine”. Instead of men behaving more like women, secular women behaving more like men.

    You can see roles of women the army. A lot of the jobs like the combat fitness instructors would be mostly women and there is a kind of horizontal, more amateur culture (it’s not exactly like the Russian army). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2CHt2zMUtc8.

    Replies: @LatW

    Food security was prioritized for cities compared to villages, especially for the higher protein food.

    I know, that’s why I said it was harsh and unfair. It’s not a good system. Basically, in the village, one ends up working two shifts – one for the collective farm and then at one’s home garden to get food or supplement it. Plus family obligations. That’s a lot!

    But if you are eating buckwheat, cabbage and fish from the river. Is this less healthy than cans of stewed meat?

    No, it can be equally good or better and that’s what I said above. That’s why in the West they now have the locavore movement, source food from very close by and as organic / clean as possible.
    Buckwheat is seen in the West as a somewhat “special” grain that is not that common.

    could have supported higher life expectancy than the more industrialized diets.

    I know several folks who lived in the village and lived very long (even past 85), and I’ve heard of such folks from the past as well.

    [MORE]

    What is the real meaning of his story? He was talking about experience of the interethnic violence when Ukrainians were beating Russians.

    What matters is who was beating who where – were Ukrainians doing this in Russia? No. I’ve heard many stories from older guys about how the Russians in Latvia would gang up on Latvians, several Russian guys would attack one Latvian guy. Because one to one they could easily lose as Latvians are typically more robust. It’s a BS move. But all of this fizzled out by mid to late 1990s.

    And 30 years later, the largest war in Europe this century, becomes Ukrainians and Russians,

    Again, same question, on whose soil is it going on? Who attacked who… I know it’s not that simple but physically it is so right now. The Ukrainians didn’t always behave well either (maybe they had no choice). But as I said, it all starts with calling one party “fake and gay”, “your language doesn’t exist”, “your nation is artificial”, etc etc.
    But even I didn’t expect for it to be this big. Hopefully, it’s over by the end of the summer (or autumn).

    with (in Russian side) part justification to supposedly save Russians (“we need to bomb you to save you”).

    That goes to show they care about something else, not the people or “saving Russians” for real. They mostly just care about claiming territory, resources and grandeur / posturing.

    It can be his stories are interesting, as even small shaking can be relevant when you see the later earthquakes.

    Very true. It all starts with very little. It’s important to take it out at the right time. Or – even better, to not have such differences in one place. Better to have a monocultural place. If you can’t handle more than one and build an appropriate balance. The Ukrainians just wanted to be left alone.

    Personally, my childhood was from a zone of relative interethnic tolerance and anti-racism.

    Me too. But these couple of sad cases from the early 1990s were not interethnic, it wasn’t that prevalent, these were purely socioeconomic cases, unfortunately.

    The more East traveling you are in the postsoviet space, the more there was national harmony.

    Because you start having some sort of a homogeneity with Slavic nations there, other nations around the periphery are not Slavic. I already told you that before the 1950s or even later, nobody in the Baltic States spoke Russian at all. All that time spent in the Empire left them intact that way, despite of some efforts in the 19th century (and you know how that ended). There were Germans there and the local cultures. And there was “harmony”, I guess you can call it, because ethnicity was preserved in a somewhat stable manner (the social issues became more important). But after 1945 they started to mess with ethnicity, so again trouble started by late 1980s. And because they were messing with the ethnic space, there were such skirmishes and turf wars. But where it was homogenous, there were still turf wars between villages. It’s just how younger guys act.

    But Ukraine as the border zone of nationality and empires, has been one of the worse tribal violence zones of 20th century Europe.

    The reason for that is because outsiders treated Ukraine as a “border zone” and didn’t leave the Ukrainians alone. Basically it is systematic and savage external violence against the Ukrainians in many cases (not all, but in many).

    Historians will see Ukraine like a place of “high seismic activity” for this, so the Dragon’s believe about the national motivation for violence might not be always implausible.

    I believe it’s totally plausible. That’s why leaving Ukraine alone would have been best. Let’s not have Ukraine as a “high seismic activity zone” anymore after this war, let’s make this final. Let Ukraine not be a “border land” anymore and be a center of its own. Let’s move on from this.

    Whereas not so many people from Moscow seem to repatriate to Israel. If they will (like the “Camembert immigration”)

    Maybe better educated Russian Jews prefer to go to the US? Although I’m aware that Israel now has excellent schools as well as tech startups so maybe that could be attractive (and they’re working to hold their own people from going to Google in Zurich, etc). But as you say, the safety issue is there.

    they are also stereotyped to not survive in the Middle East and to return to snobby Moscow and complain about the lower class people that dominate Israel

    That ticks me off. I’ve seen such Moscovite behavior. It’s their entitled attitude. Then stay in Moscow if you can’t handle the world out there. But they feel that they are owed. Of course, not all Moscovites are like that, but there is a small trend. We have it a bit in my home town as well, but it is mollyfied.

    Compared to people from the civilized Western countries, many of them can look more like that. But compared to populations from Syria, Lebanon, Palestine, Algeria? I think Israelis might be on average more gentle than Middle Eastern average.

    What I meant that he was taller than usual and seemed more athletic, more “filled in”, muscular, I guess. But it’s normal, because he was a security guard. But he still looked somewhat refined, a little bit like the Italian Carabinieri, just in a suit. It’s one of those security guys who wears a suit but carries a pistol. So it made me discover that Israel does cultivate a more athletic type as well.
    He was almost as attractive as the Latvian guys in that same league, just with darker hair.

    But their culture ideal is to be with your army reserve unit until you are 40 years old.
    The cultural norm is to be in a military unit, which is like the second family.

    I know, it seems quite hard as a lifestyle. Also, people who have good jobs often have IDF in their background.

    The culture also “hazes” women a bit and throw quite few 18 year old girls to the dangerous jobs like the border guards in Jerusalem, so the teenage girls as guards are quite often being killed around the old city, or near the checkpoints.

    That’s really harsh, going to pick up your dead daughter. It’s a risk letting your daughter in the military, but I can see why they do it. It’s a big deal though.

    There is some appearance of a culture where secular women can be equalizing by behaving less “stereotypically feminine”. Instead of men behaving more like women, secular women behaving more like men.

    Yea, I understand that dynamic. I’ve seen it in the States, too. Ugh.

    Well, as to the kickboxing girl, she is actually good, a young robust woman. That’s very commendable, it’s just generally not good to have a sport where a woman is hit on the face (or hit at all, anywhere), and to hit another woman is off-putting. But from the purely athletic point of view, it is good. My sister who is still very athletic also does kickboxing as a part of her routine (she is successful so she needs to work out a lot to have the stamina), but she doesn’t fight another woman, of course, but practices with a private coach, the coach holds up those pads and she kicks them. I’m sure that’s how the Israeli girl practices, too.

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