Unz评论•另类媒体选择$
美国主流媒体大都排除了有趣,重要和有争议的观点
 约翰·威尔档案馆
1945年,有多少德国人在德累斯顿的英国皇家空军炸弹袭击中丧生?
通过电子邮件将此页面发送给其他人

 记住我的信息



=>

书签 全部切换总目录添加到图书馆从图书馆中删除 • B
显示评论下一个新评论下一个新回复了解更多
回复同意/不同意/等等 更多... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
同意不同意谢谢LOL轮唱
这些按钮可将您的公开协议,异议,感谢,LOL或巨魔与所选注释一起注册。 仅对最近使用“记住我的信息”复选框保存姓名和电子邮件的频繁评论者可用,并且在任何八个小时的时间内也只能使用三次。
忽略评论者 关注评论者
搜寻文字 区分大小写  确切的词  包括评论
列表 书签

介绍

德累斯顿的轰炸仍然是第二次世界大战中最致命,道德上最棘手的袭击之一。 德累斯顿爆炸案的独特性有以下三个因素:1)一场巨大的大火席卷了整个城市。 2)这场大火席卷了难民膨胀的人口; 3)即使对于最初的德累斯顿人来说,防御和庇护所也很少。[1]麦基,亚历山大, 德累斯顿1945年:魔鬼的火种盒,纽约:EP Dutton,Inc.,1984年,第275页。 XNUMX。 结果造成了很高的死亡人数,并摧毁了欧洲最美丽和文化底蕴的城市之一。

关于13年14月1945日至25,000日在德累斯顿的突袭中的死亡人数,有许多相互矛盾的估计。历史学家理查德·埃文斯(Richard J. Evans)估计,在这些爆炸事件中约有XNUMX人死亡。[2]埃文斯,理查德·J。, 说谎关于希特勒:历史,大屠杀和戴维·欧文审判,纽约:《基本书》,2001年,第177页。 XNUMX。 弗雷德里克·泰勒(Frederick Taylor)估计,德累斯顿爆炸案造成25,000至40,000人死亡。[3]泰勒,弗雷德里克, 德累斯顿:13年1945月XNUMX日,星期二,纽约:HarperCollins,2004年,第354页。 XNUMX。 一个著名的德国历史学家委员会题为“确定德累斯顿空袭受害者人数的德累斯顿历史学家委员会,以确定13年14月1945日至18,000日在德累斯顿的空袭人数”,估计德累斯顿可能造成的死亡人数约为25,000人,而且绝对不会更多超过XNUMX。[4]http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/death-t....html. 许多来源认为此后来的估计是权威的。

虽然无法获得德累斯顿炸弹爆炸的确切死亡人数,但一些修正主义者的历史学家估计,德累斯顿的死亡人数高达250,000万人。 大多数机构历史学家指出,绝对不可能在德累斯顿造成250,000人死亡。 例如,理查德·埃文斯(Richard Evans)说:

即使考虑到德累斯顿的独特情况,250,000万死亡的人数也意味着20%至30%的人口被杀,这一数字与其他可比的袭击严重不相称,以至于引起任何熟悉的人的注意。轰炸袭击的统计数据……即使由于逃离红军前进的大量难民而使人口膨胀。[5]埃文斯,理查德·J。, 说谎关于希特勒:历史,大屠杀和戴维·欧文审判,纽约:《基本书》,2001年,第158页。 XNUMX。

德累斯顿的人口

历史学家普遍认为,13年14月1945日至XNUMX日夜间,德累斯顿有大量德国难民。然而,当晚在德累斯顿的难民人数估计相差很大。 这是德累斯顿爆炸案中死亡人数估计差异的主要原因。

马歇尔·德·布鲁尔(Marshall De Bruhl)在他的书中指出 烈焰风暴: 盟军空中力量与德累斯顿的破坏:

[德累斯顿]几乎每套公寓和房屋都挤满了东方的亲戚或朋友。 许多其他居民被命令接纳陌生人。 到处都有临时营地。 Grosser Garten的帐篷或棚屋中居住着约200,000万西里西亚人和东普鲁士人。 这个城市的人口是战前的两倍多。 一些估计使这一数字高达1.4万。

与德国其他主要城市不同,德累斯顿的人口密度异常低,这是因为花园包围的单身房屋比例很高。 即使是建成区也没有柏林和慕尼黑的交通拥堵。 但是,在1945年XNUMX月,开放空间,花园和公园到处都是人。

帝国为数十万逃离的东方人提供了从东部的铁路运输,但离开城市的最后火车是12月XNUMX日开行的。 在那之前,难民被困在撒克逊人的首都。[6]德布鲁尔,马歇尔, 风暴:盟军空中力量和德累斯顿的破坏,纽约:兰登书屋公司(Random House,Inc。),2006年,第200页。 XNUMX

戴维·欧文(David Irving)在 德累斯顿的破坏:

在三重打击的夜晚,西里西亚人代表了80%挤入德累斯顿的流离失所者; 这个城市在和平时期拥有630,000万人口,是在空袭的前夕,拥挤着来自东线的西里西亚人,东普鲁士人和波美拉尼亚人,来自西部的柏林人和莱茵兰德人,以及同盟国和俄罗斯战俘,在许多民族的强迫劳动者的陪伴下,撤离了儿童定居点,使增加的人口现在达到了1,200,000万至1,400,000万,其中毫不奇怪的是,数十万人没有适当的住所,他们中的任何人都无法寻求对防空洞的保护。[7]欧文(大卫) 德累斯顿的破坏,纽约:Holt,Rinehart和Winston,1964年,第98页。 XNUMX。

爆炸发生时,一名住在德累斯顿郊区的妇女说:“当时,我和母亲在这座城市的火车站工作。 难民! 他们都来自世界各地! 这个城市塞满了人!”[8]十堤,伊丽莎白·A, 德累斯顿:历史记忆的悖论,伦敦和纽约:Routledge,2001年,第82页。 XNUMX。

弗雷德里克·泰勒(Frederick Taylor)在书中指出 德累斯顿:13年1945月XNUMX日,星期二 自从英国轰炸行动开始以来,德累斯顿就一直在接受来自鲁尔(Ruhr)遭受重创的城市以及汉堡和柏林的难民。 到1943年下半年,德累斯顿已经人头over动,难以接受更多的局外人。 到1944-1945年冬天,成千上万的德国难民从东方出发,企图逃脱俄罗斯军队。[9]泰勒,弗雷德里克, 德累斯顿:13年1945月XNUMX日,星期二,纽约:HarperCollins,2004年,第134页,第227-228页。

德国政府将接受东方的德国人视为一项基本职责。 自由之战萨克森州官方德国机构,敦促公民提供临时住宿:

到处仍然有房间。 没有家人,没有客人! 无论您的生活习惯是否相配,您的家庭状况是否舒适,这些都不重要! 在我们家门口站着暂时没有家的人,更不用说失去财产了。[10]同上。,p。 227。
(泰勒,弗雷德里克, 德累斯顿:13年1945月XNUMX日,星期二,纽约:HarperCollins,2004年,第134页,第227-228页。)

但是,泰勒指出,在德累斯顿,总的政策是让难民前往西部,并在24小时内继续前进。 逃离俄罗斯人并不是在德累斯顿寻找和维持住所的有效理由。 泰勒(Taylor)指出,在德累斯顿(Dresden)从事消防工作和难民救济工作的戈茨·贝甘德(GötzBergander)的最佳估计是,200,000年13月14日至1945日夜间,大约XNUMX万非居民在德累斯顿。原本应该住在距离目标德累斯顿中心四分之一的地方。[11]同上。,第229,232页。
(泰勒,弗雷德里克, 德累斯顿:13年1945月XNUMX日,星期二,纽约:HarperCollins,2004年,第134页,第227-228页。)

德累斯顿历史学家弗里德里希·赖希特(Friedrich Reichert)估计,爆炸发生当晚,只有567,000万居民和100,000万难民在德累斯顿。 赖希特引用了目击者的话说,他们说,在德累斯顿的房屋中没有难民身分,而且在德累斯顿的公园或广场中都没有发生过身分。 因此,赖希特(Reichert)估计,爆炸当晚在德累斯顿的人数并不比战前德累斯顿的官方人数多得多。[12]埃文斯,理查德·J。, 说谎关于希特勒:历史,大屠杀和戴维·欧文审判,纽约:《基本书》,2001年,第174页。 XNUMX。

赖希特对爆炸案中德累斯顿人口的估计几乎可以肯定太低了。 一份RAF备忘录在攻击前对其进行了分析:

德累斯顿,德国的第七大城市,比曼彻斯特小不了多少,也是敌人迄今为止拥有的最大的未炸弹的建筑区。 在冬季中旬,难民向西倾泻而出,人们需要休息,屋顶非常珍贵,不仅为工人,难民和部队提供了庇护所,而且还为从其他地区流离失所的行政服务提供住所……[13]泰勒,弗雷德里克, 德累斯顿:13年1945月XNUMX日,星期二,纽约:HarperCollins,2004年,第3页,第406页。另请参见River,Charles编辑, 德累斯顿大炮:同盟对德国最有争议的袭击的历史和遗产,简介,p。 2。

亚历山大·麦基(Alexander McKee)就德累斯顿声明:

每个家庭都有大量的难民,那天有更多的难民到达德累斯顿,因此当他们继续挣扎或者只是疲惫地坐在手提箱和背包上时,人行道被他们堵住了。 由于这些原因,没有人能够对死者人数做出积极的估计,毫无疑问,没人会这样做。[14]麦基,亚历山大, 德累斯顿1945年:魔鬼的火种盒,纽约:EP Dutton,Inc.,1984年,第177页。 XNUMX。

美国空军历史部门研究所航空大学编写的报告指出:“ 1,000,000月13/14日皇家空军袭击晚上,德累斯顿可能大约有XNUMX万人。”[15]http://glossaryhesperado.blogspot.com/2008/04/facts....html. 我认为本报告中引用的1万人口数字是对13年14月1945日至XNUMX日盟军轰炸期间德累斯顿人口的现实和保守的最低估计。

只有25,000人死了吗?

如果在德累斯顿的25,000人死亡人数估算是准确的,那么我们会得出奇怪的结果,即在战争临近结束的时候,一个特别脆弱的大城市,被完全用于教科书目的,不受任何限制的盟军空中力量被完全利用,没有任何限制,当盟军的空中优势是绝对的,而德国的防御体系几乎不存在时,它的效率不如盟军的空中力量在汉堡或柏林等以前的困难地区。 我认为德累斯顿遗留下的大量遗迹表明一定程度的彻底破坏是德国从未见过的。

德累斯顿炸弹爆炸造成了史诗般的大规模火灾,绝不是一次失败的任务,只取得了预期的结果的一小部分。 距离德累斯顿100多英里远,仅是第一次袭击就引起了大火。[16]塞巴斯蒂安·考克斯(Cox,塞巴斯蒂安),《德累斯顿突袭:为什么和如何》,载于艾迪生,保罗和克朗的杰里米·A(编辑), 火暴:德累斯顿轰炸,1945年,芝加哥:伊万·迪(Ivan R. Dee),2006年,第44、46页。 德累斯顿的突袭是轰炸机指挥部两次打击理论的完美执行:两次轰炸机,相距三个小时,第二天又被更多的轰炸机和护送战斗机突袭。 实际上只有极少数的袭击符合这种双重打击理论,而那些袭击却是灾难性的。[17]德布鲁尔,马歇尔, 风暴:盟军空中力量和德累斯顿的破坏,纽约:兰登书屋公司(Random House,Inc。),2006年,第204-205页。

德累斯顿还缺乏有效的防空洞网络来保护其居民。 希特勒已下令在3,000个德国城镇中建造80多个防空掩体。 但是,没有人在德累斯顿建房,因为该市没有被视为有空袭的危险。 取而代之的是,德累斯顿的人防系统将大部分精力用于在房屋的地窖之间建立隧道,以使人们能够从一栋建筑物逃到另一栋建筑物。 这些隧道通过将烟气和烟气从一个地下室引导到另一个地下室,并从相互连接的酒窖网络中吸走氧气,加剧了德累斯顿大火的影响。[18]Neitzel,Sönke,“受攻击的城市”,作者杰里米·A·艾迪生,保罗和克朗,(编辑), 火暴:德累斯顿轰炸,1945年,芝加哥:Ivan R. Dee,2006年,第68-69页。

德累斯顿的绝大多数人口无法获得适当的防空洞。 当英国皇家空军当晚袭击德累斯顿时,德累斯顿的所有居民和难民所能做的就是躲在他们的酒窖里。 在许多情况下,这些地窖被证明是死亡的陷阱。 设法逃离地窖的人们在逃离这座城市时常常被卷入大火。[19]同上,第69、72、76页。
(Neitzel,Sönke,“受攻击的城市”,作者:艾迪生,保罗和克朗,杰里米·A(编辑), 火暴:德累斯顿轰炸,1945年,芝加哥:伊万·迪(Ivan R. Dee),2006年,第68-69页。)

德累斯顿几乎无法抵抗空袭,德累斯顿地面上的人民遭受了后果。 德累斯顿突袭中的轰炸机能够相对免于担心遭到德国国防部的骚扰而进行袭击。 主轰炸机命令轰炸机下降到较低的高度,机组人员对此充满信心,并在轰炸过程中保持稳定的高度和航向。 这确保了德累斯顿的袭击特别集中,因此特别有效。[20]塞巴斯蒂安·考克斯(Cox,塞巴斯蒂安),《德累斯顿突袭:为什么和如何》,载于艾迪生,保罗和克朗的杰里米·A(编辑), 火暴:德累斯顿轰炸,1945年,芝加哥:Ivan R. Dee,2006年,第52-53页。 皇家空军对德累斯顿进行了技术上完美的射击。[21]戴维斯,理查德·G, 卡尔·A·斯帕茨(Carl A. Spaatz)与欧洲的空战华盛顿特区:空军历史研究中心,1993年,第557页。 XNUMX。

英国人完全意识到,轰炸德国城市可能导致大规模死亡和破坏。 轰炸行动局预测雷霆行动将带来以下后果:

如果我们假设受攻击地区的白天人口为300,000,则可能会造成220,000人伤亡。 其中可能有110,000%或XNUMX被杀。 有人认为,这样的袭击造成了如此多的死亡,其中很大一部分是关键人员死亡,无助于影响整个德国的政治和平民士气。”[22]黑斯廷斯,马克斯, 轰炸机司令部,纽约:The Dial Press,1979年,第347-348页。

德累斯顿的毁灭是如此彻底,以至于大公司在突袭后两周内报告的员工人数不到其总数的50%。[23]塞巴斯蒂安·考克斯(Cox,塞巴斯蒂安),《德累斯顿突袭:为什么和如何》,载于艾迪生,保罗和克朗的杰里米·A(编辑), 火暴:德累斯顿轰炸,1945年,芝加哥:伊万·迪(Ivan R. Dee),2006年,第57页。 XNUMX。 到1945年369,000月底,该市仅剩406万居民。 德累斯顿在17月2日遭受了580架B-17的进一步袭击,并在17月453日遭受了XNUMX架B-XNUMX的袭击,另外XNUMX人丧生。[24]Overy,理查德, 轰炸机和轰炸机:1940-1945年的欧洲同盟空战,纽约:维京企鹅,2014年,第314页。 XNUMX。

与普福尔茨海姆爆炸案的比较

10年23月1945日在普福尔茨海姆(Pforzheim)进行了一次与德累斯顿(Dresden)极为相似的突袭。 由于德累斯顿和普福尔茨海姆在战争初期都未遭受太大破坏,因此两个城市的易燃性得以保留。[25]约格,弗里德里希, 大火:德国轰炸,纽约,哥伦比亚大学出版社,2006年,第94页。 XNUMX。 在这两个没有防御的城市都制造了一场完美的大火。 这些城市也没有为其公民提供足够的防空洞。

根据官方估计,普福尔茨海姆的破坏面积约占该市的83%,在20,277人中有65,000人死亡。[26]同上。,第91.另请参见DeBruhl,Marshall, 风暴:盟军空中力量和德累斯顿的破坏,纽约:兰登书屋公司(Random House,Inc。),2006年,第255页。 XNUMX
(弗里德里希(Friedrich),约尔格(Jörg), 大火:德国轰炸,纽约,哥伦比亚大学出版社,2006年,第94页。 XNUMX.)
SönkeNeitzel还估计,在20,000名人口中,大约有65,000人死于普福尔茨海姆的突袭行动中。[27]Neitzel,Sönke,“受攻击的城市”,作者杰里米·A·艾迪生,保罗和克朗,(编辑), 火暴:德累斯顿轰炸,1945年,芝加哥:伊万·迪(Ivan R. Dee),2006年,第77页。 XNUMX。 这意味着普福尔茨海姆30%以上的居民在一次炸弹袭击中丧生。

问题是:如果普福尔茨海姆(Pforzheim)居民中有30%以上在一次炸弹袭击中丧生,为什么在2.5天前的类似突袭中仅约10%的德累斯顿人死亡? 德累斯顿袭击中的第二波轰炸机袭击发生在德累斯顿上空,当时消防队和营救队的人数最多,是在燃烧城市的街道上。 第二波轰炸机使更早的破坏变得更加复杂,并有意杀死了消防员和救援人员,因此德累斯顿的破坏势不可挡。[28]德布鲁尔,马歇尔, 风暴:盟军空中力量和德累斯顿的破坏,纽约:兰登书屋公司(Random House,Inc。),2006年,第210页。 XNUMX.另请参见McKee,Alexander, 德累斯顿1945年:魔鬼的火种盒,纽约:EP Dutton,Inc.,1984年,第112页。 XNUMX。 相比之下,对普福尔茨海姆的突袭只包括一次轰炸袭击。 而且,普福尔茨海姆的目标要小得多,因此实地的人们更容易摆脱大火。

普福尔茨海姆的死亡率比德累斯顿高的唯一原因是爆炸中普福尔茨海姆的死亡率更高。 艾伦·罗素(Alan Russell)估计,普福尔茨海姆(Pforzheim)市中心的83%被摧毁,而德累斯顿(Dresden)的市中心只有59%。[29]罗素·艾伦(Russell,Alan),《为什么德累斯顿如此重要》,作者艾迪生,保罗和克朗,杰里米·A(编辑), 火暴:德累斯顿轰炸,1945年,芝加哥:伊万·迪(Ivan R. Dee),2006年,第162页。 XNUMX。但是,这仅占死亡人数百分比差异的一部分。 根据普福尔茨海姆突袭中的死亡人数,可以合理地假设至少有20%的德累斯顿人死于英国和美国对这座城市的袭击。 企业历史学家估计的德累斯顿家庭死亡率为2.5%,这是一个不切实际的低数字。

如果使用20%的死亡率数字乘以德累斯顿的估计人口1万,则德累斯顿的死亡人数将是200,000。 如果使用25%的死亡率乘以估计的1.2万人口,则德累斯顿的死亡人数将为300,000。 因此,与普福尔茨海姆爆炸案相比,德累斯顿估计有250,000万人丧生。

死者如何处置?

历史学家理查德·埃文斯(Richard Evans)问:

怎么能想象不到一个月内就可以从废墟中找到200,000具尸体呢? 这将需要一支名副其实的人民军队来进行这项工作,并需要数百辆急需的车辆来运送尸体。 恢复尸体的实际努力是相当大的,但是没有证据表明它达到了消除这一数目的要求。[30]埃文斯,理查德·J。, 说谎关于希特勒:历史,大屠杀和戴维·欧文审判,纽约:《基本书》,2001年,第158页。 XNUMX。

理查德·埃文斯(Richard Evans)不认识到在德累斯顿集市广场(Altmarkt)上焚化尸体并不是在德累斯顿处置尸体的唯一方法。 一位英国中士报道了在德累斯顿处置尸体的情况:

他们不得不将枯萎的尸体用叉车运到卡车和货车上,然后将其运到城市郊区的浅坟上。 但是经过两周的工作,工作变得非常艰巨,他们找到了其他方法来收集死者。 他们在城市中心大量焚烧尸体,但出于卫生原因,最有效的方法是拿起喷火器,焚烧死者躺在废墟中的尸体。 他们只是将喷火器变成房屋,焚烧死者,然后关闭整个区域。 整个城市被夷为平地。 他们几个星期都无法清理躺在马路旁的死者。[31]里根,丹, 星条旗 伦敦版,5年1945月5日,星期六,第一卷。 156,第XNUMX号。

历史学家在炸弹爆炸中是否如此焚化德累斯顿的大量尸体以至于不再将其视为尸体方面也存在分歧。 弗雷德里克·泰勒(Frederick Taylor)提到战后德累斯顿的高级枪手沃尔特·魏道尔(Walter Weidauer)说

[T]报告中没有实质性内容,即成千上万的受害者被彻底焚化,没有发现任何痕迹。 并非所有人都被识别出来,但是-特别是由于大多数受害者死于窒息或人身伤害-绝大多数个人的身体至少可以被这样区分。[32]泰勒,弗雷德里克, 德累斯顿:13年1945月XNUMX日,星期二,纽约:HarperCollins,2004年,第448页。 XNUMX。

其他历史学家援引证据表明,尸体被焚化得面目全非。 亚历山大·麦基(Alexander McKee)引用希尔德加德·普拉斯(Hildegarde Prasse)的话说,她在德累斯顿爆炸案发生后在Altmarkt看到的景象:

我在Altmarkt看到的是残酷的。 我简直不敢相信自己的眼睛。 [从前线]被遗留下来的一些人正忙于将尸体铲在另一个的顶部。 有些被完全碳化并埋在这种柴堆中,但是由于流行的危险,它们都在这里被烧毁了。 无论如何,剩下的几乎是无法辨认的。 他们后来被埋在德累斯顿海德(Dresdner Heide)的万人坑中。[33]麦基,亚历山大, 德累斯顿1945年:魔鬼的火种盒,纽约:EP Dutton,Inc.,1984年,第248页。 XNUMX。

马歇尔·德·布鲁尔(Marshall De Bruhl)引用了一份报告,该报告是由一名挖掘者于1975年在一个骨灰盒中发现的,写于12年1945月XNUMX日,当时一名年轻士兵仅被称为Gottfried。 该报告指出:

我看到了有史以来最痛苦的一幕……。几个人在入口附近,其他人在飞奔中,还有许多人回到地窖里。 形状暗示了人类的尸体。 可以识别其身体结构和头骨形状,但是他们没有衣服。 眼睛和头发碳化,但不缩水。 当被触摸时,它们分解成灰烬,完全没有骨骼或分离的骨头。

我认出了一具男性尸体,就像我父亲的一样。 他的胳膊被卡在两块石头之间,剩下的灰色西装碎片仍留在了那里。 毫无疑问,坐在他身边的是母亲。 头的纤细身材和形状毫无疑问。 我找到了一个罐子,把他们的灰烬放进了罐子里。 我从来没有这么难过,如此孤独和充满绝望。 背着我的宝藏和哭泣,我离开了可怕的场面。 我到处都在发抖,我的心脏快要破裂了。 我的助手们站在那儿,在冲击下保持沉默。[34]德布鲁尔,马歇尔, 风暴:盟军空中力量和德累斯顿的破坏,纽约:兰登书屋公司(Random House,Inc。),2006年,第253-254页。

对德累斯顿大火焚烧的估计也表明了德累斯顿大批人的焚烧。 尽管没有幸存者报告过德累斯顿大火期间达到的实际温度,但许多历史学家估计温度达到了1,500摄氏度(2,732华氏度)。[35]亚历山大·麦基(Alexander McKee)引用了华氏3,000度的估算值(麦基,亚历山大, 德累斯顿1945年:魔鬼的火种盒,纽约:EP Dutton,Inc.,1984年,第176页。 XNUMX)。 由于火葬室内的温度通常仅达到1,400华氏度至1,800华氏度[36]http://nfda.org/planning-a-funeral/cremation/160.ht...l#hot.,德累斯顿的大批人会因为大火中产生的极端高温而被焚化。

历史学家在德累斯顿是否仍在追回尸体方面也存在分歧。 例如,弗雷德里克·泰勒(Frederick Taylor)说:“自1989年以来-即使在德累斯顿共产主义垮台后进行了广泛的发掘和重建-即使重建进行了认真的考古调查,也没有发现任何尸体。”[37]泰勒,弗雷德里克, 德累斯顿:13年1945月XNUMX日,星期二,纽约:HarperCollins,2004年,第448页。 XNUMX。

马歇尔·德·布鲁尔(Marshall De Bruhl)不同意泰勒的说法。 德·布鲁尔(De Bruhl)指出,在德累斯顿(Dresden)的废墟中还发现了许多其他受害者的尸体,原因是拆除了废墟或挖掘了新建筑物的地基。 德布鲁尔指出:

当1990年代在Altmarkt附近的遗址被发掘时,发现了一个特别刺激的发现。 工人们发现了从农村招募来德累斯顿并在战时帮助运营电车的十几名年轻女性的尸体。 他们在一个古老的拱形地下室中躲过炸弹雨的庇护,在那里他们的遗体保持了将近50年的原状。[38]德布鲁尔,马歇尔, 风暴:盟军空中力量和德累斯顿的破坏,纽约:兰登书屋公司(Random House,Inc。),2006年,第254页。 XNUMX

总结

德累斯顿爆炸案造成的破坏如此巨大,以致无法获得确切的死亡数字。 但是,德累斯顿历史学家委员会的声明“绝对不超过25,000人”在德累斯顿爆炸案中丧生,这一说法可能是不准确的。 对证据的客观分析表明,几乎可以肯定,有超过25,000人死于德累斯顿的炸弹袭击。 根据与普福尔茨海姆爆炸和其他类似爆炸袭击的比较,很容易在德累斯顿造成250,000万人丧生。

尾注

[1] 麦基,亚历山大, 德累斯顿1945年:魔鬼的火种盒,纽约:EP Dutton,Inc.,1984年,第275页。 XNUMX。

[2] 埃文斯,理查德·J。, 说谎关于希特勒:历史,大屠杀和戴维·欧文审判,纽约:《基本书》,2001年,第177页。 XNUMX。

[3] 泰勒,弗雷德里克, 德累斯顿:13年1945月XNUMX日,星期二,纽约:HarperCollins,2004年,第354页。 XNUMX。

[4] http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/death-toll-debate-how-many-died-in-the-bombing-of-dresden-a-581992.html.

[5] 埃文斯,理查德·J。, 说谎关于希特勒:历史,大屠杀和戴维·欧文审判,纽约:《基本书》,2001年,第158页。 XNUMX。

[6] 德布鲁尔,马歇尔, 风暴:盟军空中力量和德累斯顿的破坏,纽约:兰登书屋公司(Random House,Inc。),2006年,第200页。 XNUMX

[7] 欧文(大卫) 德累斯顿的破坏,纽约:Holt,Rinehart和Winston,1964年,第98页。 XNUMX。

[8] 十堤,伊丽莎白·A, 德累斯顿:历史记忆的悖论,伦敦和纽约:Routledge,2001年,第82页。 XNUMX。

[9] 泰勒,弗雷德里克, 德累斯顿:13年1945月XNUMX日,星期二,纽约:HarperCollins,2004年,第134页,第227-228页。

[10] 同上。,p。 227。

[11] 同上。,第229,232页。

[12] 埃文斯,理查德·J。, 说谎关于希特勒:历史,大屠杀和戴维·欧文审判,纽约:《基本书》,2001年,第174页。 XNUMX。

[13] 泰勒,弗雷德里克, 德累斯顿:13年1945月XNUMX日,星期二,纽约:HarperCollins,2004年,第3页,第406页。另请参见River,Charles编辑, 德累斯顿大炮:同盟对德国最有争议的袭击的历史和遗产,简介,p。 2。

[14] 麦基,亚历山大, 德累斯顿1945年:魔鬼的火种盒,纽约:EP Dutton,Inc.,1984年,第177页。 XNUMX。

[15] http://glossaryhesperado.blogspot.com/2008/04/facts-about-dresden-bombings.html.

[16] 塞巴斯蒂安·考克斯(Cox,塞巴斯蒂安),《德累斯顿突袭:为什么和如何》,载于艾迪生,保罗和克朗的杰里米·A(编辑), 火暴:德累斯顿轰炸,1945年,芝加哥:伊万·迪(Ivan R. Dee),2006年,第44、46页。

[17] 德布鲁尔,马歇尔, 风暴:盟军空中力量和德累斯顿的破坏,纽约:兰登书屋公司(Random House,Inc。),2006年,第204-205页。

[18] Neitzel,Sönke,“受攻击的城市”,作者杰里米·A·艾迪生,保罗和克朗,(编辑), 火暴:德累斯顿轰炸,1945年,芝加哥:Ivan R. Dee,2006年,第68-69页。

[19] 同上,第69、72、76页。

[20] 塞巴斯蒂安·考克斯(Cox,塞巴斯蒂安),《德累斯顿突袭:为什么和如何》,载于艾迪生,保罗和克朗的杰里米·A(编辑), 火暴:德累斯顿轰炸,1945年,芝加哥:Ivan R. Dee,2006年,第52-53页。

[21] 戴维斯,理查德·G, 卡尔·A·斯帕茨(Carl A. Spaatz)与欧洲的空战华盛顿特区:空军历史研究中心,1993年,第557页。 XNUMX。

[22] 黑斯廷斯,马克斯, 轰炸机司令部,纽约:The Dial Press,1979年,第347-348页。

[23] 塞巴斯蒂安·考克斯(Cox,塞巴斯蒂安),《德累斯顿突袭:为什么和如何》,载于艾迪生,保罗和克朗的杰里米·A(编辑), 火暴:德累斯顿轰炸,1945年,芝加哥:伊万·迪(Ivan R. Dee),2006年,第57页。 XNUMX。

[24] Overy,理查德, 轰炸机和轰炸机:1940-1945年的欧洲同盟空战,纽约:维京企鹅,2014年,第314页。 XNUMX。

[25] 约格,弗里德里希, 大火:德国轰炸,纽约,哥伦比亚大学出版社,2006年,第94页。 XNUMX。

[26] 同上。,第91.另请参见DeBruhl,Marshall, 风暴:盟军空中力量和德累斯顿的破坏,纽约:兰登书屋公司(Random House,Inc。),2006年,第255页。 XNUMX

[27] Neitzel,Sönke,“受攻击的城市”,作者杰里米·A·艾迪生,保罗和克朗,(编辑), 火暴:德累斯顿轰炸,1945年,芝加哥:伊万·迪(Ivan R. Dee),2006年,第77页。 XNUMX。

[28] 德布鲁尔,马歇尔, 风暴:盟军空中力量和德累斯顿的破坏,纽约:兰登书屋公司(Random House,Inc。),2006年,第210页。 XNUMX.另请参见McKee,Alexander, 德累斯顿1945年:魔鬼的火种盒,纽约:EP Dutton,Inc.,1984年,第112页。 XNUMX。

[29] 罗素·艾伦(Russell,Alan),《为什么德累斯顿如此重要》,作者艾迪生,保罗和克朗,杰里米·A(编辑), 火暴:德累斯顿轰炸,1945年,芝加哥:伊万·迪(Ivan R. Dee),2006年,第162页。 XNUMX。

[30] 埃文斯,理查德·J。, 说谎关于希特勒:历史,大屠杀和戴维·欧文审判,纽约:《基本书》,2001年,第158页。 XNUMX。

[31] 里根,丹, 星条旗 伦敦版,5年1945月5日,星期六,第一卷。 156,第XNUMX号。

[32] 泰勒,弗雷德里克, 德累斯顿:13年1945月XNUMX日,星期二,纽约:HarperCollins,2004年,第448页。 XNUMX。

[33] 麦基,亚历山大, 德累斯顿1945年:魔鬼的火种盒,纽约:EP Dutton,Inc.,1984年,第248页。 XNUMX。

[34] 德布鲁尔,马歇尔, 风暴:盟军空中力量和德累斯顿的破坏,纽约:兰登书屋公司(Random House,Inc。),2006年,第253-254页。

[35] 亚历山大·麦基(Alexander McKee)引用了华氏3,000度的估算值(麦基,亚历山大, 德累斯顿1945年:魔鬼的火种盒,纽约:EP Dutton,Inc.,1984年,第176页。 XNUMX)。

[36] http://nfda.org/planning-a-funeral/cremation/160.html#hot.

[37] 泰勒,弗雷德里克, 德累斯顿:13年1945月XNUMX日,星期二,纽约:HarperCollins,2004年,第448页。 XNUMX。

[38] 德布鲁尔,马歇尔, 风暴:盟军空中力量和德累斯顿的破坏,纽约:兰登书屋公司(Random House,Inc。),2006年,第254页。 XNUMX

(从重新发布 不便的历史 经作者或代表的许可)
 
• 类别: 发展史 •标签: 学院, 美国媒体, 德国, 第二次世界大战 
隐藏280条评论发表评论
忽略评论者...跟随Endorsed Only
修剪评论?
    []
  1. Thanks for clearing up another one of grandpa’s lies. There are alot of them.

  2. anonymous1963 [又名“ anon19”] 说:

    An unpunished war crime.

    We should have stayed out of it.

    • 回复: @Wally
    , @Moi
  3. utu 说:

    I am glad you are publishing this article here. Few days ago I have cited your article

    https://inconvenienthistory.com/11/1/6600

    on another thread and added the following comment:

    https://www.unz.com/runz/american-pravda-how-hitler-saved-the-allies/#comment-3216306
    During the war authorities were often lowering the losses so not to give reasons for defeatism. People did not know the true scale of losses. It was not in newspaper. Goebbels decided that playing a victim to the world public opinion would not work anymore but it only would have negative effect on the spirit of German public. Yet police reports from Dresden show very high figures. Much, much higher than 25k And these reports are not post WWII prepared by DDR authorities that liked to talk about American terror bombings in Vietnam. And then several years ago after the reunification some British and Germans historians got together, Dresden became a sister city of Coventry, the Brits helped to rebuild the church in Dresden, the slogans ‘never again’ were repeated ad nausea and the number of dead became 25k. It is still way too high to be a sister city of Coventry.

  4. A key element is to look at the war situation when this bombing occurred. Wiki has a great series of wartime maps, and here is February 1, 1945. The Soviet were closing in on Berlin.

    Dresden was not in the Soviet path to Berlin nor in the path of the Allies to the Elbe. So it wasn’t bombed for military reasons. Note that the USA not only firebombed the Germans and Japanese, the USA firebombed Chinese cities too:

  5. 在每种情况下,无论伤亡人数如何,尽管我确实相信人数更多,但该行为是战争罪的定义。 无论如何,德国人正在输掉这场战争——轰炸没有战略意义。
    目的是通过焚烧和窒息人来杀死尽可能多的德国人。
    死得很不愉快。
    证明英语的兽性。

    • 同意: Rabbitnexus, GazaPlanet
    • 回复: @jbwilson24
    , @Andre Citroen
  6. Kurt Vonnegut,who was there as a POW,estimated the death-toll to be 135 000.

  7. Biff 说:

    The consent factory has permanently put black hats on the Germans, and put white hats on themselves.
    Facts be damned, so does the number really matter?

    • 回复: @Haxo Angmark
  8. Even many Jews and other prisoners in cams have died because supply of food to camps become practically impossible by railways. So they have died of starvation.

  9. Xityl 说:

    This is why Britain is experiencing things like Rotherham. It’s all related and karmic.
    Dresden is emblematic of the Anglo’s betrayal of Europe, and for that reason Britain will soon be extinguished forever.
    I can’t say I’m sad about that.

    • 同意: Fuerchtegott
    • 回复: @Moi
    , @Johnny Rottenborough
  10. Popeye 说:

    By current standards of international law the fire bombing of cities is a war crime and crime against humanity unless attack focuses solely on strategic targets and all efforts taken to minimize civilian casualties. Interesting as well, a major line of thought is that using nuclear weapons against cities is a war crime since no effort could be taken to minimize civilian casualties as fully as possible

  11. Wally 说:

    起价 http://www.fpp.co.uk/docs/Irving/RadDi/2009/240409.html
    David Irving states:

    “AS the day draws on I come across a document which I only half-suspected I might ever find. In 1961, when I was writing my first book “The Destruction of Dresden”, I was confidentially approached by a German schoolteacher, Hanns Voigt; he said that after the horrific British air raid, he was put in charge of Dresden’s Missing Persons Bureau, Abteilung Tote – the Deceased Section. He built an immense card index, and he kept a diary; and he estimated for me that the final death toll in Dresden would have reached 135,000. This was the figure that I, and after me Kurt Vonnegut and others, always used.

    Other city officials gave the same kind of estimates. (Later this year I shall post on my website a full dossier on the Dresden death toll.)

    Voigt’s estimate was a thorn in the side of both German Governments — both east and west. They had always played down, even trivialised, the air raid casualty figures caused by the British saturation bombing (even as they hyped the numbers killed in the Jewish tragedy).

    Only last year a German Government commission consisting of, not just conformist but kow-towing, line-toeing, bowing-and-scraping historians and Nickeseln, agreed that the death roll in the two hour man-made 1945 holocaust in Dresden was far lower, “only 25,000” (or, if possible, even less).

    Without doing any in-depth research — such scholars are far too important for that — they relied on the police chief’s early March 1945 report (which in fact I was the first to find), because it indicated lower figures than Hanns Voigt’s for dead and missing.

    In the Deborah Lipstadt Trial, her highly-paid chief expert Professor Richard “Skunky” Evans (left) vilified Voigt; he implied that Voigt was a liar, he questioned whether the Missing Persons bureau had ever existed, and he called him a Nazi with an agenda. (Voigt had, we now know, been given a good post-war position in the Soviet Zone before emigrating legally to the West, so the “Nazi” allegation seems unlikely.) Aping Evans, Mr Justice Gray accused me in his 333-page Judgment of falsifying history.

    I was not invited to make any submissions to the Dresden Commission. No surprises there. This afternoon, my quiet patience is rewarded. I have come across this new secret document, signed by the police chief of Dresden, and decoded by the British some weeks after the war.”

    翻译:

    At 5:55 p.m. on March 24, 1945 — the day in fact when I turned eight, I remember it vividly — the Dresden Polizeipräsident reported in code to SS Oberführer Dr. Dietrichs:

    Re: Missing Persons Situation in Dresden Air Raid Defence region.

    The Lord Mayor of Dresden City has established (a) a Central Bureau for Missing Persons and nine Missing Persons registries; (b) eighty- to one-hundred thousand missing-person notifications are estimated to have been registered so far; (c) 9,720 missing-person notifications have been confirmed as fatalities; (d) to date, information on twenty thousand missing person cases has been given out; (e) accurate statistical data possibly only later.

    “So Voigt was telling the truth.

    Even the “hundred thousand” figure for those reported missing must be an under-estimate. There were over half a million homeless refugees in the streets of Dresden, fleeing the Red Army siege of Breslau to the East. Whole refugee families must have been engulfed by the Dresden holocaust, with nobody surviving to report them as “missing”.

    Another thing seems brutally clear: those listed as “missing” — in addition to those bodies formally identified and buried or incinerated by this date — were never going to return. To use the words of the telegram I found yesterday (see above) they were dead, “carbonised,” and unidentifiable.

    What do these decoded messages tell us about our own lazy and conformist historians, and about “Skunky” Evans in particular? He, and they, would never have found them. It has taken me these many years. Go the extra mile. Eventually, as this morning’s Welshman said, “You will be proved right in the end”.”

    很多很多:
    https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=921

    • 同意: Haxo Angmark
    • 回复: @Parfois1
  12. tac 说:

    View this documentary and make up your own mind:

    https://www.hellstormdocumentary.com/

    然后在这里:

    • 同意: Johnny Walker Read
    • 回复: @follyofwar
  13. Wally 说:
    @anonymous1963

    The Allies needed to deflect from their barbarity such as Dresden, which is simply one example, hence their desperate embrace of the fake & impossible ‘gas chambers’ and the easily debunked ‘6,000,000 Jews’ & ‘5,000,000 others’ propaganda.

    http://www.codoh.com

  14. eah 说:

    While no survivor has ever reported the actual temperature reached during the Dresden firestorm,…

    他们怎么可能?

    …many historians estimate that temperatures reached 1,500° Centigrade (2,732° Fahrenheit)….

    A ‘historian’ estimating temperature?

    Since temperatures in a cremation chamber normally reach only 1,400 degrees to 1,800 degrees Fahrenheit,…

    How hot an (essentially) open air fire can get and whether or not eg such a fire can melt steel was and is part of the 9-11 discussion — on 9-11 it was jet fuel — at Dresden it was incendiary bombs — still it is a little hard to believe even incendiary bombs could result in open air fires with 持续 temperatures vastly higher than what are normally seen during cremation — ??

    A raid that closely resembles that on Dresden was carried out 10 days later on February 23, 1945 at Pforzheim.

    There’s more than one way to destroy a German city:

    Ende 2017 hatten 67.543 Einwohner einen Migrationshintergrund, was einem Anteil von 53,7 % an der Gesamtbevölkerung entspricht. Bei den Einwohnern unter 18 Jahren betrug der Anteil der Personen mit Migrationshintergrund 74,1 %.

    Data from the end of 2017 indicate 54% of the people in Pforzheim are not ‘Biodeutsch’ — 74% of those under 18.

  15. renfro 说:

    The bombing of Dresden was a war crime because it was UNNECESSARY !!
    Absolutely no military reason for it…..records in US Historian office of meetings of the Soviets, UK and US between Feb 5th to 8th show that they knew the war was over and were deciding on what ‘official date” they would use to declare it.

    • 回复: @eah
  16. turtle 说:

    They burned bodies in a great heap in the center of the city, but the most effective way, for sanitary reasons, was to take flamethrowers and burn the dead as they lay in the ruins. They would just turn the flamethrowers into the houses, burn the dead

    You mean, an actual Holocaust?
    Wasn’t the only one, either.
    Burning German civilians alive (Japanese also) was official policy of “moral” U.S. and their allies, the lovely British.
    Hamburg, Berlin, Köln, in fact just about any German city of any size. Nearly all were destroyed by fire by the end of the war. Most people here probably already know this, but just for the record…

    • 回复: @Johann
  17. Hail 说: • 您的网站

    Dresden downplaying is one of the only forms of WWII “revisionism” 提拔 by the establishment. My impression is the drive towards deflating Dresden began in the mid 2000s, which is when David Irving began a years-long running section on his website about Dresden and its death toll 争议。

    Irving wrote the book that brought the incident to worldwide awareness in the 1960s and partly inspired Kurt Vonnegut to write his breakout novel (屠宰场五, as a commenter mentions above) which had sections that were quasi-autobiographical. Vonnegut was a U.S. POW in the city on that night, held in the basement of a building whose address was Schlachtof Fuenf, “No.5 Slaughterhouse St.” (The irony was not lost.)

    As far as I know, Irving’s current estimate is that 100,000 is either the likely figure itself (most conservative reasonable estimate), or (more likely) the lower bound for the true death toll. This is according to primary documents he has discovered. The 135,000 figure was from local official Hanns Voigt, in charge of the missing persons bureau. He was meticulous. Irving tracked him down in 1961 during research for the original Dresden book.

    More recently, a police document from six weeks after the bombing that Irving acquired and published in 2009 corroborates that figure:

    This afternoon [April 24, 2009], my quiet patience is rewarded. I have come across this new secret document, signed by the police chief of Dresden, and decoded by the British some weeks after the war.

    At 5:55 p.m. on March 24, 1945 — the day in fact when I turned eight, I remember it vividly — the Dresden Polizeipräsident reported in code to SS Oberführer Dr. Dietrichs:

    Re: Missing Persons Situation in Dresden Air Raid Defence region.
    The Lord Mayor of Dresden City has established (a) a Central Bureau for Missing Persons and nine Missing Persons registries; (b) eighty- to one-hundred thousand missing-person notifications are estimated to have been registered so far; (c) 9,720 missing-person notifications have been confirmed as fatalities; (d) to date, information on twenty thousand missing person cases has been given out; (e) accurate statistical data possibly only later.

    So Voigt was telling the truth.

    Even the “hundred thousand” figure for those reported missing must be an under-estimate. There were over half a million homeless refugees in the streets of Dresden, fleeing the Red Army siege of Breslau to the East. Whole refugee families must have been engulfed by the Dresden holocaust, with nobody surviving to report them as “missing”.

    • 同意: utu
    • 回复: @utu
    , @Hamlet's Ghost
  18. Hail 说: • 您的网站

    Some of the pictures from Irving’s Dresden book:

    Second-t0-last pic:

    DESCRIPTION: Pathetic chalked messages on the ruins of survivors seeking information on missing wives, mothers, family buried in the ruins.

    Last pic:

    DESCRIPTION: On the following day, March 23, 1962, Mr Irving (aged 27 still) interviewed Marshal of the RAF Sir Arthur Harris at his home in Oxfordshire, about the Dresden raids.

  19. Anonymous [AKA "RightField"] 说:

    Dresden has a special meaning for me.
    Ten years after this sadistic event, I became a friend of a fellow Air Force trainee at Keesler AFB. He had been brought to the US as an orphan from Germany. All of his relatives had died in the Dresden inferno. He had been sent on an errand outside of the city and was the only survivor of his whole family. ALL dead except him. No mother. No father. No bother or sister or grandparent. All dead.
    He was a gentle soul, but a basket case mentally. He was a fellow Lutheran and I believe he wanted to be in heaven with his family. I tried my best to help him. He could not keep track of anything. He lost his pay records transferring. I bought him soap and other little necessities he needed to get by. But he did not last very long and was gone, unable to concentrate and cope. He certainly was a casualty, but uncounted, of this dishonorable, deplorable sadism.

    With a city of 1.2 million with refugees, 25,000 dead would be a mere 2% casualty rate. Look at that picture again. Where in that picture could one have survived?

  20. JimDandy 说:

    I skimmed the article, but I don’t think I saw any reference to the autobiographical-fiction first-hand account written by Kurt Vonnegut in Slaughterhouse-Five:

    In Vonnegut’s words: “There were too many corpses to bury. So instead the Germans sent in troops with flamethrowers. All these civilians’ remains were burned to ashes.”

  21. mark green 说:

    Days after the incineration of Dresden, Hitler, Goebbels, and their wives decided to end their lives. Here is Hitler’s final testament to the world:

    http://www.ihr.org/other/hitlertestament.html

    (Translation by Mark Weber)

    • 回复: @Carolyn Yeager
    , @Rabbitnexus
  22. refl 说:

    Thanks for another article to expose another tabu of WWII history.

    I want to introduce an important angle here that might not be common to nongerman readers:
    Watching any popular history program in this country, you any time across raping and plundering Red army soldiers. It is common place.
    Try to mention Dresden and anything down that line and you will be taken for a deranged Neonazi. A lot of the present vilification of Saxony in todays PC german media has to do with the fact that Saxony has its own culture of war crime remembrance.

    • 回复: @TomSchmidt
  23. jbwilson24 说:
    @Ilyana_Rozumova

    “Proof of bestiality of English.”

    Sorry, dum dum. The ‘English’ were not in charge of the UK government at the time. Churchill had a Jewish mother, half the House of Lords were officially Jews, the banking establishment was Jewish, the war profiteers were Jewish, etc.

    Did you know that Churchill’s Jewish handler, Frederick Lindemann, was the one who directed Churchill to attack working class neighbourhoods in raids in order to maximize civilian deaths.

    • 不同意: Carolyn Yeager
  24. crimson2 说:

    A lot. Glad Germany finally learned not to start stupid wars.

  25. Parfois1 说:
    @Wally

    Good work Wally. You may be impervious to some ideas but are a reliable source to debunk official lies.

    It amazes me how the German people have been so indoctrinated to accept the occupation of their country by the mass murderers 74 years after the greatest single-incident crime in human history. Only human beings are capable of that monstrous viciousness. Or may be only some …?

    • 回复: @Druid
    , @Wally
  26. It is heartening to see and read this article here. Recently I was in a brief back-and-forth with another commenter about this subject. I quoted from Private Kurt Vonnegut’s letter to his parents thus:

    On or about February 14th, the Americans came over, followed by the R.A.F. Their combined labors killed 250,000 people in 24 hours and destroyed all of Dresden — possibly the world’s most beautiful city. But not me.

    After that we were put to work carrying corpses from Air-Raid shelters; women, children, old men; dead from concussion, fire or suffocation. Civilians cursed us and threw rocks as we carried bodies to huge funeral pyres in the city.

    ——库尔特·冯内古特,给父母的信,29 年 1945 月 XNUMX 日

    The other commenter replied with the standard 25,000 number of dead. My response was that his number, the “mainstream” accepted one, seems too small, while Vonnegut’s seems too large.

    It is interesting to note the reasons why some people would want us to believe such a ridiculously small number as 25,000 for Dresden.

    This article makes my point clear, and it even makes 250,000 sound plausible. I wish to thank the writer, John Wear, and our publisher here, Ron Unz, for providing it.

  27. “Historians also differ on whether or not large numbers of bodies in Dresden were so incinerated in the bombing that they could no longer be recognized as bodies. Frederick Taylor mentions Walter Weidauer, the high burgomaster of Dresden in the postwar period, as stating

    [T]here is no substance to the reports that tens of thousands of victims were so thoroughly incinerated that no individual traces could be found. Not all were identified, but—especially as most victims died of asphyxiation or physical injuries—the overwhelming majority of individuals’ bodies could at least be distinguished as such.”[32]”

    Hmmm, isn’t the point that you DON’T recognize remains as being human? In other words you can’t distinguish them as such?
    If you can’t determine they are human remains you won’t even realize you are looking at human remains when you seen them and consequently have no reason to question whether they might be! And off course you won’t report them as such.

    Reminds me of an incident with a friend of mine years ago. We were walking down the main shopping street. Background music was playing along the street. He was a bit of a sound perfectionist and complained that the drums in the music playing were electronic and not played by a human. He claimed he could always tell. I called bullshit. I asked him whether he had ever bothered to check if his opinion was right. Off course he never had. He genuinely believed he could tell the difference, being a sound freak, so he never bothered to check. What did happen was that he kept reinforcing his own ingrained belief, “wow, I’m good, I even can tell the difference in this song”!
    Now, he probably was right most of the time. But he certainly wasn’t right all of the time yet he truly believed he was. The fun of confirmation bias.

    So it makes complete sense that the high burgomaster would believe, incorrectly, that there were no indistinguishable corpses. If you know they are a corpse, or what’s left of it, it’s distinguishable. Indistinguishable means they are by definition not countable, only estimable (based on total numbers before and after).

  28. Parfois1 说:

    Surprisingly the article does not mention the strafing of the survivors from the firestorm. I first knew about Dresden when I read the revelations of an eyewitness US POW then in that city. Many thousands of survivors sought refuge from the heat in the Elbe River but that became an easy target for the US Mustang fighter-bombers. An unimaginable evil and all the more shocking by the fact that their countries’ (UK/US) civilian populations had been spared the horrors inflicted on Soviet people.

    And that duo were planning to do the same thing to dozens of Soviet cities – but with atomic bombs for good measure. We have always been ruled by the most despicable monsters, the true reflection of Western “democracy”. Am I unique in saying that, were I a “Bomber” Harris’s pilot, I would refuse to fly the damned plane or, at least, unload the cargo in a harmless place? I can’t understand it… Makes one ashamed of belonging to this species.

    • 回复: @follyofwar
  29. Moi 说:
    @Xityl

    “Great” Britain, possibly the biggest racist empire in history.

    • 同意: GazaPlanet
    • 巨魔: Mr McKenna
    • 回复: @IP Freely
  30. Mike P 说:

    在该主题出现的较早线程上,评论者 Germanicus 发布了此文件:

    这是德累斯顿市政府的一份备忘录,大意是德累斯顿警方记录截至 20.3.1945 年 200,000 月 250,000 日,已有 300,000 名死者康复,其中大部分是妇女和儿童,预计最终死亡人数为 XNUMX 至 XNUMX。

    这是在新的和改进的 25,000 数量推出之前。 你可以依靠官方的西方史学永远,永远不会说出任何事情的真相。

    • 回复: @Jake
    , @GazaPlanet
  31. Jake 说:

    If you say the WASPs did a bad thing, you are insane. No more gentle, kind, compassionate, empathic, anti-imperialistic people ever lived. Why, WASP war is the very antithesis of any possibility of war crime or genocidal desire.

    • 哈哈: follyofwar
  32. utu 说:
    @Hail

    Dresden downplaying is one of the only forms of WWII “revisionism” promoted by the establishment. My impression is the drive towards deflating Dresden began in the mid 2000s

    I wish we knew more about it beyond speculations how this process was initiated, what characters were involved on both sides to give the push for it. Then finding the willing ‘historians’ to do the actual work was not a problem. There are many willing ‘historians’ out there.

    • 回复: @Hail
  33. Jake 说:
    @jbwilson24

    The ‘English’ lost major control of their government no later than the Cromwell years. WASP culture is finalized, is made complete, by the Puritan Revolution. WASP culture was born of the Judaizing heresy Anglo-Saxon Puritanism.

    The Anglo-Zionist Empire was born directly from Anglophone Reformation and the resulting politics, which from the outset acted to inflict at least cultural genocide on all local British cultures that did not assimilate to the presiding civic form of the Judaizing heresy of Anglo-Saxon Puritanism.

    Anglo-Zionist Empire is WASP Empire, and it did not begin between the 2 World Wars, nor with Disraeli, nor with the founding of Freemasonry (which featured Jewish funding and socially and morally directed the British Empire from then on), nor even with the Jewish financially backed coup by William of Orange. It goes back 100% to Cromwell, whose antecedents were long and deep in the ethnically ‘pure’ Anglo-Saxon parts of England.

    • 回复: @Ilyana_Rozumova
  34. Jake 说:
    @Mike P

    If by ‘western’ you mean “WASP’ or ‘English’ or ”Anglo-Saxon’ or Yank Elite,’ then you barely overstate.

    • 同意: Mike P
  35. turtle 说:

    same thing to dozens of Soviet cities – but with atomic bombs

    The atomic bombs were intended to be used on German cities.
    Unfortunately for those who designed and built them, the war in Europe ended before the bombs were ready, and they had to be tested on the Japanese.

    • 回复: @onebornfree
  36. 我不知道该出版物的政治倾向,也不在乎,因为他们都在赤裸裸地推动议程,包括接近尾声的这篇文章。 温馨提示:虽然不是精美的巴洛克式建筑,但纽约州纽约市人满为患的双子塔却遭到了其他任何名称的炮火轰炸,导致了可预见的报复性战争行为,以可怕的方式与可怕的相遇.

    肇事者期待什么?

    https://www.unilad.co.uk/featured/ww2-veteran-says-dresden-bombings-were-genocide/

    然而,这个对德累斯顿爆炸事件中一位 91 岁英国幸存者的描述令人震惊。 听起来他认为战争是由他的国家发动的。 呃,关于沸腾水库和爆炸性焦油“逃生”路线的部分是可怕的立方体。 这位久经沙场的职业军人的照片也很能说明问题。 除了第一人称采访外,它还引用了学术资源。

    火爆已被取缔是件好事。 但对这些人来说为时已晚,大多数是老人和孩子,他们躲在一座雕刻精美的巴洛克城市的中心,而男人们则在打仗,而许多妇女可能正在郊区的军火工厂工作。 那么,为什么要轰炸这座城市的建筑瑰宝,那里没有建造战争工具?

    • 回复: @Cyrano
  37. Thanks to revisionist historians like John, the horrible truths of WWII are now becoming main stream. Did the Allies out Hitler Hitler? My answer would be a resounding yes.

    • 回复: @Wally
    , @EugeneGur
    , @Alexandros
  38. eah 说:
    @renfro

    The bombing of Dresden was a war crime because it was UNNECESSARY !!

    That last thing I want to do here is defend what was done to Dresden (it was indefensible) — but I think you would have a hard time defining what is ‘necessary’ during wartime vs what isn’t — especially when the war isn’t over yet, and one of your goals has to be to minimize your own casualties, even if it means (perhaps unnecessarily) maximizing the enemy’s — as Patton said: ‘The goal of war is not to die for your your country, but to make the other bastard die for his’ — oder etwas ähnlich.

    Years ago I read the following piece and afterward had a brief email exchange with the author:

    When Collateral Damage Was The Point

    The issue she addresses — the indiscriminate bombing of largely civilian targets (cities) during WWII vs today’s use of ‘precision’ weapons (which back then did not exist) designed to minimize “collateral damage” — is probably familiar to most.

    • 回复: @Scalper
    , @refl
  39. Budd Dwyer [AKA“ Anon000”] 说:
    @jbwilson24

    Fair enough. But did the Englishmen who dropped the bombs and directed the war have free will?

  40. Sallysdad 说:
    @White Monkey

    I recently, over the past month, read the book by David Irving on Dresden.
    He recounts that after the war German authorities estimated, from records, missing persons accounts, and more, that the death toll was 125,000 on that night. I believe this was compiled into the early 50s to that result. It might have been more, but I doubt it was less.

  41. sailor1031 说:
    @Buzz Mohawk

    The figure of 250,000 is quite believable My dad was a RAF Intelligence S/Ldr at the time and he always maintained the casualty figure, based on RAF estimates at the time of the raid, was 250,000.

  42. Hans 说:
    @jbwilson24

    Thank you! I think we’re making headway but it can’t be stated often enough.

  43. nickels 说:

    And now we understand why the holowcaust narrative had to be invented-pure projection.

    • 回复: @Jacques Sheete
  44. eah 说:

    Should one choose to make it (not that I would ever do that), there is something of a ‘Holocaust’ connection to the aftermath in Dresden, where corpses were burned on makeshift pyres — the immediate purpose was to carbonize the flesh to inhibit the spread of disease (ie not necessarily to turn a human body into ash and bones, as during cremation) — but the truth is, hardly more is possible with such an open air pyre — there is simply not enough heat — the corpses are still recognizably human (there are other examples of this from around the time the war ended) — compare to the claims made about eg Treblinka, where allegedly all traces of hundreds of thousands of murdered Jews were eliminated by doing something similar — and this after they were dug up after months (if not longer) underground.

  45. Hans 说:
    @crimson2

    Yea, but not nearly as many as the number of Jews killed by the Romans:

    Earlier “Holocaust” franchises, because the bs undoubtedly goes back further
    Talmud: Gittin 57b claims that XNUMX亿 Jews were killed by the Romans in the city of Bethar.

    Gittin 58a claims that 16千万 Jewish children were wrapped in scrolls and burned alive by he Romans.

    Plus the endless Six Million Kvetching from the mid-1800s up to WWII.

    Those Jews must have been starting stupid wars.

    http://thebirdman.org/Index/Jews/Jews-FilesForHistory&ScripturalOrigin/TheIncredibleNumbersOfJewishVictimology-ArthurButz.htm

    • 回复: @Wally
  46. @Xityl

    Xityl—This is why Britain is experiencing things like Rotherham. It’s all related and karmic…Britain will soon be extinguished forever

    Forget karma: Sweden, neutral in World War II, is also experiencing things like Rotherham and will be extinguished even sooner than Britain.

  47. Neil 说:

    A few days after the bombing the Gaulitier of Dresden sent a message to Berlin stating that they had recovered 240,000 bodies and asked for instructions as to what to do next. Apparently the reply was to stop counting.

  48. Anon[424]• 免责声明 说:

    At the end the ” civilized ” ” great ” european countries that teached , and still teach , lessons to the world were a bunch of butchers .

  49. follyofwar 说:
    @White Monkey

    My first knowledge of the Dresden atrocity came when I read Vonnegut’s novel “Slaughterhouse Five” when in college in the ’70’s. If I recall correctly, seems that he and other American POW’s were spared by hiding in some kind of large refrigerator. I believe what he encountered there, which included helping to bury the dead, scarred him for life, but, ironically, made him a better novelist.

  50. Wally 说:
    @Johnny Walker Read

    “Did the Allies out Hitler Hitler? My answer would be a resounding yes.”

    Except that Hitler did not do what is alleged of him in the first place.

    If you think you have proof that he did then please present it here and learn.

    • 回复: @Johnny Walker Read
  51. I figure 135,000 — right back where we started.

    Here’s my reasoning. About 47,000 died in the worst night at Hamburg — a well-documented attack, for which the casualty figures have been established within a narrow range. Simply comparing the acreage destroyed in that night to the acreage destroyed at Dresden suggests about 60,000 dead at Dresden.

    Now, Hamburg had been repeatedly bombed since early in the war. It had lavish air raid shelters, everyone knew where they were, and had all too much practice in promptly getting into them. Dresden hadn’t been bombed at all, and inevitably, people must have been much more confused and slow to actually find shelter, the shelters would have turned out to be inadequate in some respect, etc. Practice makes perfect, and the inverse follows as well. Casualties from a raid on Dresden would have been somewhat higher than from a raid on Hamburg, all things being equal. But they weren’t equal: more acreage was incinerated in Dresden.

    They also weren’t equal in another respect: Dresden’s population had been roughly doubled by the influx of refugees fleeing the Red Army. Nobody knows precisely what proportion of these died, but losses must have been catastrophic: they would have been completely unfamiliar with the location of the air raid shelters, and disproportionately crowded around the train station, to boot. The train station was one of the worst-hit locations in Dresden.

    So we can go from 47,000 to 60,000 on acreage alone, at least double for population density the night of the raid, and add a bit of a bonus for lack of practice.

    135,000. At least. This is exactly the figure the East German government originally came up with, although at the time, they lopped off the one for political reasons.

  52. Wally 说: • 您的网站
    @Hans

    Here the fake ‘6M dead Jews’ goes back at least to 1841:

    6万?

    • 回复: @Andre Citroen
    , @Hans
  53. homahr 说:

    Saudis doing the same thing to Yemen, with help from UK,US,France and Germany as well.

  54. follyofwar 说:
    @tac

    Thomas Goodrich’s eye-opening, disturbing book “Hellstorm” shows the pornography of war more graphically than anything I’ve ever read. Even if the war was justified, you can’t read it and ever feel good about how the US and British conducted their near genocidal campaign against the Germans. The Russians were just as barbaric (especially with their thousands of rapes of German women), but at least they had cause, since the Germans had just about wiped them out.

    • 回复: @Allegra
    , @Hans
    , @Wally
    , @Colin Wright
  55. @Ilyana_Rozumova

    英国和美国的飞行员被他们轰炸德累斯顿的命令弄糊涂了。 他们无法理解它的必要性,但被适当地编程而不去想任何事情,离开了。

    一些人推测,轰炸是对苏联的警告,表明西方可以对一个人口众多的城市做些什么。 德累斯顿也是反纳粹情绪的中心。

    • 回复: @Haxo Angmark
  56. @Wally

    6 万这个数字是在犹太人处于困境时使用的塔木德隐喻。 几个世纪以来,它已被无数次使用。

    • 回复: @Wally
    , @Jacques Sheete
  57. @mark green

    Days after? You mean two and half months. Why do you call that ‘days’?

    • 回复: @mark green
  58. buzzwar 说:

    That was the real holocaust of WW2.

    • 回复: @Anon
    , @Jacques Sheete
  59. @jbwilson24

    Here’s an example of what Ron Unz has called “random internet commenters” who spread lies or false “facts” and other people accept them as true. Churchill’s mother was not Jewish (thus nor was he), Frederick Lindemann was not Jewish, but three people here seem to agree they were. I believed those “facts” for awhile simply because so many other people did, until I gained the confidence to be more demanding of valid evidence and break with the crowd.

  60. follyofwar 说:
    @Parfois1

    Parfois1:

    What is your source that the US/UK were planning to wipe out “dozens of Soviet cities – but with atomic bombs for good measure?” Patton was reassigned from his post-WWII position as military governor of Bavaria to a nothing post in Italy, and then murdered before he could return to the states, for suggesting that the US turn on and invade its WWII ally, the Russkies. BTW, only the USA had The Bomb at that time.

    • 回复: @Parfois1
  61. @turtle

    turtle says: “The atomic bombs were intended to be used on German cities.
    Unfortunately for those who designed and built them, the war in Europe ended before the bombs were ready, and they had to be tested on the Japanese.”

    Maybe, maybe not. After all, if all governments lie about practically everything, almost all the time [including war casualties], why wouldn’t they lie about the existence of nukes?

    See forum thread : “The Nuke Hoax” : http://www.cluesforum.info/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=452

    Question : why in god’s name does anyone believe anything the government says about 什么 ?

    Wouldn’t that be a sign of some sort of serious mental condition [ avoidance of reality syndrome, perhaps]?

    此致onebornfree

    • 回复: @Xityl
  62. Hans 说:
    @Wally

    Very true, Wally, but we must now face the horrible fact that we are dealing with Gorillions, not mere millions.

  63. @Wally

    “Except that Hitler did not do what is alleged of him in the first place.”

    I agree totally. Hitler did all he could to avoid war with Europe, especially England. Once the first cannon is fired all prior intentions go out the window, and the eventual victors write the history. My point is the real Hitler(picture of pure evil)turns out to be the Allies.

    • 同意: Jacques Sheete
    • 回复: @Wally
  64. Allegra 说:
    @follyofwar

    ‘at least they had cause – to rape thousands of German women’.

    Had cause? Just shows it’s pointless arguing with folk equipped with a defective moral compass.

    同时 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Dresden_in_World_War_II

  65. Hans 说:
    @follyofwar

    Indeed. Great work from Goodrich.

    Jews such as Henry Morgenthau and Theodore Kaufman, among others, were explicit in wanting to genocide Germans through castration, starvation, and “migrants” breeding them out.

    Germany Must Perish! – https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany_Must_Perish%21
    The Morgenthau Plan – http://www.fpp.co.uk/bookchapters/Morgenthau.html

    They were stymied temporarily and have had to be patient but are putting the pieces in place today finally.

  66. When attempting to establish figures on fatalities we should always remember the human, each figure is an individual story: the gravedigger’s moving account of finding his dead parents. ‘The shapes suggested human corpses. The body structure was recognizable and the shape of the skulls, but they had no clothes. Eyes and hair carbonized but not shrunk. When touched, they disintegrated into ashes, totally, no skeleton or separate bones.’
    This is important today, as humanity heads for yet another world war. The nuclear powers – and not just on the political extremes – will destroy the entire planet in apocalyptic conflagration, as the past and the present predict will happen.
    https://www.ghostsofhistory.wordpress.com/

    • 同意: Johnny Walker Read
  67. Scalper 说:
    @eah

    You Germans are so cucked and brainwashed. The irony here is that the argument you are using could be used as well to justify nazi war crimes, ie civilian/partisan/resistance executions etc or couldn’t it?.

    Judea declares the war on Germany>well documented overrepresentation of Jews among communists and resistance fighters>many Jewish and other civilian executions result.

    But but but… it’s not the same because Jews and other non axis civilians are sacred victims of “The Genocide” and everyone knows the nazis were the baddies in WW2.. Oh wait.

    Patton said civilians are fairgame in any war amirite?

    I suspect decades of Allied brainwashing have rendered you unable to understand this clear contradiction.

    Re: comparing Dresden bombing temps to 9/11. Not the same, fires on 9/11 weren’t strong enough to *create and sustain its own storm force wind system* ie a firestorm which creates a de facto furnace conditions.

    https://someinterestingfacts.net/what-is-firestorm-phenomenon/

    https://www.sciencedaily.com/terms/firestorm.htm

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firestorm

  68. Tom Welsh 说:

    Perhaps less authoritative – and perhaps more so – is Kurt Vonnegut, Jr’s account of the Dresden firestorm in his novel Slaughterhouse Five”. A fairly impressive movie was made from the book.

  69. follyofwar 说:
    @Allegra

    Allegra, I didn’t write it in the same way that you quoted me. Nonetheless, I soon realized that I had worded it incorrectly, and my comment could be misinterpreted. It happens in every war, but there is NO moral justification for soldiers raping the enemy’s women – FULL STOP!

    What I should have said was that the Russian army’s brutality when marching toward Berlin at war’s end could be understood to the extent that millions of Russian civilians and soldiers had been murdered by the advancing Germans as they killed their way toward Moscow (only to be defeated by the Russian winter). IMHO, invading the gigantic USSR was an act of sheer madness by Hitler.

  70. EugeneGur 说:
    @Johnny Walker Read

    Did the Allies out Hitler Hitler? My answer would be a resounding yes.

    Then your resounding answer would be wrong. Unless, of course, as the Europeans are wont to do, you don’t count any other victims but yours.

    Germany lost approximately 2.5 million civilians in the war, and that includes all Allies bombings, artillery fire during combat operations and such. In contrast, the Soviet Union lost approximately 13.6 million of civilians due to bombing raids, combat operations, starvation and other conditions associated with the German occupation, with some 2 million, mostly young women and teenagers, dying just in forced labor in Germany and satellites. I’d say the Allies had some length to go yet to reach the German accomplishments in that regard.

  71. Anon[424]• 免责声明 说:
    @buzzwar

    And the Leningrad holocaust ? , and the 27 million soviets dead ? were they less humans than the germans

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Leningrad

    The whole WWII was a devil holocaust ,

    • 回复: @Hans
  72. Anon[424]• 免责声明 说:

    Why the germans resisted to the end ? . Instead of making an armistice or surrender when it was clear thet they were defeated by the russians ? ( after the battle of Moscow ? after Stalingrad ? ) , because they were blockhead nazis ? because they are blockhead germans ? did they really thought that they were superior , invencible ? were they so blood thirsty to fight to the the last old man to the last adolescent ?

    They should have done like the more inteligent italians , rebel , desert , surrender , hang the führer , shoot the SS …….

  73. Hans 说:
    @Anon

    The slaughter inside Russia began as soon as (((Jacob Schiff’s))) (((Bolshevik))) gang took over.

    “你必须明白,接管俄罗斯的主要布尔什维克不是俄罗斯人。 他们讨厌俄罗斯人。 他们讨厌基督徒。 在种族仇恨的驱使下,他们折磨和屠杀了数以百万计的俄罗斯人,却没有一丝人性的悔恨。 不能夸大其词。 布尔什维主义犯下了有史以来最大规模的人类屠杀。 世界上大多数人对这一巨大罪行一无所知和漠不关心的事实证明,全球媒体已掌握在肇事者手中。” ——亚历山大·索尔仁尼琴

    It’s funny how all the genocidal notions (Bolshevism, World Wars, Kalergi Plan, etc., etc.) can be traced back to a common denominator.

    NWO – Communism By The Backdoor – https://hooktube.com/watch?v=vBwK-iDK1x8

  74. Most Americans are not familiar with the fact that Germans harbor a passionate hate for the US Republicans, and that they actually worship the US Democrats, an astounding and perplexing fact indeed, when one considers that FDR, HST, the guys behind the odious murder and destruction depicted in this article were themselves Democrats, also a fact which is totally ignored and swept under the rug in Germany.

    German media never publishes the fact that the guy who atom-bombed Japan was a Democrat, instead they leave this item out of their publications, assuming that the general public will “naturally” gather that he was a Republican.

    The tangeled up Germans worshiped the ground JFK walked upon, and they hated his Viet Nam actions.

    They, the neurotic Krauts, go on and on about the “racist” Americans, however in all of their writings about the KKK they completely omit that it was founded by : Democrats, same applies to the Jim Crow laws, and

    They, the lunatic Teutons are consumed with a rabid adversion towards DT, such as nowhere upon planet mirth, and they are demanding that the US eliminate it’s electoral college, which prevented their idol HC from gaining the WH.

    These same Teutonic crazies are also relentlessly demanding that the US alter it’s constitution so as to forbid the private ownership of guns, such as in Germany.

    Apparently they think somehow that they did in fact win the War and that they are now called upon to dictate internal US politics : Am deutschen Wesen soll die Welt genesen”.

    WC’s “Boots or throat” axiom is just as applicable now as it was then.

    阿杰姆

    • 同意: Alden
  75. @Carolyn Yeager

    It seems that F. Lindemann was not Jewish. In spite of that, wikipedia says the following, which may explain why some people believe that he was Jewish: “Some sources claim that he was Jewish”. Among the two sources which wikipedia mentions that make this claim is a site with the title “Oxford Jewish Personalities” from a “Oxford Chabad Society”. There his name appears as being Jewish:

    https://www.oxfordchabad.org/templates/articlecco_cdo/aid/457389/jewish/Oxford-Jewish-Personalities.htm

    • 哈哈: Gefreiter
  76. Johann 说:
    @turtle

    This what the Anglo American war to make the world safe for democracy really looks like. Perhaps the modern Brits and Amis are getting what they deserve.

  77. nickels 说:
    @Carolyn Yeager

    None of these objections really matter, as all know that Churchill was the financial whore of the jewish group, The Focus, and he did their will exclusively as a way to finance his massive gluttony in all things.

    • 回复: @Carolyn Yeager
  78. Gefreiter 说:
    @Anon

    Why the germans resisted to the end ?

    德国必须灭亡 by (((Theodore Kaufmann))), written in 1940 but released to great fanfare in 1941, laid out the blue print for the looming genocide of Germany. Next the deliberately leaked Morgentau Plan in September 1943, by the Freemasons running the Roosevelt administration, confirmed it. ZOG, your owners 424, had decided on the destruction of Germany already 100 years earlier. See Pikes letter to Mazzini.

    The deliberate starvation of Germany in the Turnip Winter of 1918-19, while Spanish Flu was raging, after Armistice, was already an act of genocide just as valid as the Holodomor or the British Concentration Camps during the South African Boer Wars.

    The Germans knew a Hellstorm was coming because Kaufman and Morgentau told hem, but they had also seen first hand how the lazy and envious Poles and Czechs had treated Germans in the build up to WWII. Then the Soviet Hordes reached East Prussia. Read about Bomberg.

  79. AnonFromTN 说:

    It is important for history to determine how many people exactly died as the result of Dresden bombing. However, from the point of view of justice, it is not critically important: the murder of 18,000 civilians, just like the murder of 250,000 civilians is a mass murder, a war crime, and a crime against humanity. The guilty are likely dead and cannot be punished by death penalty, as they deserve, but the verdict should be rendered, nonetheless. The same is true for mass murder of Japanese civilians in Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

  80. @Anon

    Germans fought to the death because they knew the cruelty that would be visited upon them by the butcher Stalin if they surrendered. As honorable human beings they knew it was better to die fighting than on your knees with a bullet to the head via your captors.

    If Stalin was such a great guy why did many Russians join the German army in the battle against Stalin and Soviet Bolshevism?

    https://www.combat.ws/S3/BAKISSUE/CMBT03N1/STALIN.HTM

  81. TomSchmidt 说:
    @refl

    Indeed. One of the blessings of Saxony being controlled by Russians is that the city of Dresden has plaques put up in 1961 or so that specifically indict the Anglo-American destruction of the city, something that could not be said in the West. Those plaques have remained after reunification.

    Meanwhile, my visit to the city in 2010 showed that much of the historic center (minus the Burgerlich houses) is being restored, a better use of GDP than blowing it to bits in the Middle East, like some countries do.

  82. Wally 说:
    @Johnny Walker Read

    Got it, apologies for the misread.

    干杯。

  83. Wally 说:
    @Allegra

    Indeed, this article just proved Zionist controlled Wikipedia to be wrong, yet again.

  84. Wally 说:
    @follyofwar

    “The Russians were just as barbaric (especially with their thousands of rapes of German women), but at least they had cause, since the Germans had just about wiped them out.”

    No the Germans did not ‘just about wipe out the Russians’.

    What “cause” are you supposedly referring to?

    However, Germany was forced to stage a pre-emptive attack of the communist USSR.

    为什么德国攻击苏联,希特勒向苏联宣战–两个历史文献,由马克·韦伯(Mark Weber)撰写: https://www.unz.com/article/why-germany-attacked-the-soviet-union/

    http://www.codoh.com

  85. Wally 说:
    @Andre Citroen

    Yes, I know about the magic number ‘6’ for Jews.

    However, I’m referring to citations which claim that 6,000,000 Jews were dead.

    你有更多吗?

    • 回复: @Andre Citroen
  86. @nickels

    It DOES matter if he was racially jewish or not. I believe it is an attempt to excuse the white British from the terrible crimes they are so capable of. We cannot get to the bottom of (be honest about) the cause of the World Wars if we insist on seeing organized Jewry as the sole culprit.
    而我 不能 excusing Jews from their very real crimes. See my website and my current series of posts from The Fatherland newspaper. Just type in The Fatherland for all 3 pages of them.

    • 回复: @nickels
  87. AnonFromTN 说:
    @Johnny Walker Read

    Wrong thread: Stalin did not bomb Dresden, or Tokyo, or Hiroshima, or Nagasaki. “Democratic” governments did.

  88. S 说:

    There are certain historic events which apparently have been found to be ’embarrassing’ to the powers that be and are thus rather tellingly down played as to their actual significance and importance.

    One of these is that the ‘Grand Union’ flag chosen to fly over and symbolize the American Revolution during the years 1776 -1777 is for practical purposes identical to that of the multi-national corporation British East India Company flag. The present day US flag is still largely derived in its design from the Grand Union/British East India Company flag.

    Another one is how modern Soviet Communism evolved directly from the 1789 French Revolution. It will be recalled (or, I should rather say, ‘not be recalled’, as it has been down played historically) that the French Revolution, the ‘sister’ of the American Capitalist revolution and resulting Republic, gave to the world ‘the Commune’, the ‘political commissar’, ‘counter-revolution’, ‘Whites’, ‘Red’ republicanism, the ‘Great Terror’ and its accompanying mass arrests and executions, etc. Thus accordingly, Paris, the seat of the 1789 Revolution, today has an entire city square named ‘Stalingrad’ in honor of that Soviet city’s Communist defenders.

    Swept down the memory hole too is that the Capitalist American revolution of 1776 and the nascent Communist French revolution of 1789 each share some of the same ‘Founding Fathers’ in the form of big hitters such as Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Paine, and apparently Ben Franklin as well, amongst likely others.

    The February 1945 bombing of Dresden and its actual very high death toll would seem to be another one of these historical ’embarrasments’.

    And, of course, the ‘telling’ part is in finding the answer to the question, if these things be true then why the embarrasment?

    '马赛的叛变很快导致了里昂的叛变。 这个重要的城市成为南方反革命的中心……”

    • 回复: @Jacques Sheete
  89. mark green 说:
    @Carolyn Yeager

    My mistake. But your petty correction is of no significance.

    • 回复: @Carolyn Yeager
  90. Vianney 说:
    @Buzz Mohawk

    顺其自然。

    The subtitle to Vonnegut’s book, Slaughterhouse 5, is The Children’s Crusade.

    He’d gone to an Army pal’s home to share memories toward getting the book written.

    The friend’s wife was uncharacteristically cold. She stomped around, slammed doors, clearly displayed anger.

    The three of them finally figured out what was bothering her: she hated that the two buddies might end up chest-thumping and glorifying war. She did not want more children to die.

    Vonnegut promised her he would not write such a book, but would write in the hope of sparing the next and next generation of children.

    It appears many Americans are fully on board with “taking care of them Eyeranians, sooner not later.”

    I wonder what the overlap is between “kids in cages is not who we ARE” and, “Starving Iranian children hasn’t worked, just kill the bastards.”

    YeeHaw.

    • 回复: @S
  91. nickels 说:
    @Carolyn Yeager

    Jews are not a race. Most jews are racially Europeans or Turkish.
    The English aristocracy whored itself to the jews en masse in the course of the 19th century to satisfy their profligate lifestyles.
    Both jews and sick English are responsible for both world wars.

    • 回复: @Carolyn Yeager
  92. Cyrano 说:
    @Endgame Napoleon

    那么,为什么要轰炸这座城市的建筑瑰宝,那里没有建造战争工具?

    这是因为二战中的俄罗斯“盟友”——我们不会提到任何名字——在战争市场的平民战斗中占据了一席之地。

    我的意思是,这是完全可以理解的。 作为一个资本主义国家,他们最感兴趣的是投资回报最高的地方。 打平民会产生更好的结果,你可以杀死比士兵更多的平民,最后,在资本主义的古老传统中,数量才是最重要的。

    强大的红军即使在最好的时候也几乎无法杀死几千名德国士兵。 那是因为他们是共产主义者,对战争的经济一无所知。

    资本主义军队的结果要好得多,他们一天可以杀死成千上万的敌人,尽管他们的外表看起来很聪明,但根据一些过时的战争规则,他们实际上应该与谁作战。

    • 回复: @Noman
    , @Parfois1
  93. @mark green

    My mistake. But your petty correction is of no significance.

    Why petty, mark? Don’t you think mistakes should be corrected? Or would you rather that it stood? That seems like the meaning of “no significance.” Why not thank me?

    什么时候 the Goebbels and the Hitlers made the decision to take their own lives seems significant to me. We don’t want to give out false impressions.

  94. @crimson2

    Germany? No. The U. S. has held the global monopoly on starting stupid wars since at least the Spanish-American War. Meanwhile, 19th century British history reads like a farrago of pointless, stupid wars. Ever heard of the Boer Wars? The Crimean War? The Opium Wars?

  95. @nickels

    Jews are not a race. Most jews are racially Europeans or Turkish.

    Jews think they are a race.
    Jews did not originate in Europe. Nor in Khazaria, if that’s what you’re getting at. All Jews have Semitic DNA. I and my family have zero Semitic DNA, or any other than European.

    • 回复: @nickels
    , @Colin Wright
  96. @White Monkey

    Kurt Vonnegut also thinks that Morris Dees is the greatest thing since sliced Merita bread.

  97. Anon[414]• 免责声明 说:

    Nearly 80 million people died in WWII, but all you ever hear about are the 6m. Jews are God’s chosen, to punish this earth for our original sin.

    Germans are the world’s most honest people, and also kinesthetically inclined(good with doing things with their hands), brave, humble, civic minded, introverted and understated. Germans excel in creating, inventing and making things. Jews are the exact opposite, they are quite possibly the world’s most dishonest people, and also intellectual rather than kinesthetic (talkers and thinkers, not doers), cowardly, arrogant, narcissistic, shameless and extroverted, they create and invent nothing, other than tall tales like holocaust or financial frauds.

    We killed off the former to prop up the latter. And now we reap what we sow.

    • 回复: @EugeneGur
  98. nickels 说:
    @Carolyn Yeager

    Whatever you say Ms. Kahant.
    Obsession about race and steering people toward race is the original antisemitism trick.
    Something and agent would push.
    Antisemitism was invented to cover over the true issue of anti-Christianity and rejection of Christ that creates the theological construct known as the jew.

    • 巨魔: Carolyn Yeager
  99. @Buzz Mohawk

    I visited Dresden in 2017. I gave the concierge at my hotel the “how many were killed in the firebombing” quiz and he said 250,000. Hardly evidence of anything, but this is the anecdotal number I was told by a Dresden native with a family that partly perished in this unaddressed War Crime.

    • 回复: @Colin Wright
  100. ‘The destruction from the Dresden bombings was so massive that exact figures of deaths will never be obtainable. However, the statement from the Dresden Commission of Historians that “definitely no more than 25,000” died in the Dresden bombings is probably inaccurate. An objective analysis of the evidence indicates that almost certainly far more than 25,000 people died from the bombings of Dresden. Based on a comparison to the Pforzheim bombing and the other similar bombing attacks, a death toll in Dresden of 250,000 people is easily possible.’

    I don’t actually disagree; 250,000 is certainly possible. For one, no one knows either how many refugees were in Dresden or how many died.

    However, such a high figure isn’t particularly certain. I’d prefer to insist the death toll must have been at least close to 100,000. That figure has the merit of being difficult to undermine.

    • 回复: @Vianney
  101. @Carolyn Yeager

    ‘Jews did not originate in Europe. Nor in Khazaria, if that’s what you’re getting at. All Jews have Semitic DNA. I and my family have zero Semitic DNA, or any other than European.’

    The logic here will lead you inexorably to the conclusion that the Palestinians are the world’s most perfect Jews.

    …which works out nicely. They want to live in Palestine, and many still do.

    All we need to do is boot out the intruders, and the problem is solved.

    • 回复: @Carolyn Yeager
  102. S 说:

    The wanton destruction of Dresden was a deliberate attack upon Germany’s historic identity. Something not dissimilar in nature happened in Iraq when US forces were deliberately stood down after Saddam Hussein’s downfall as Iraq’s antiquities were looted and destroyed in Bhagdad.

    You can’t have a world state/empire with a bunch of different and distinct peoples running around thinking they’ve got unique and valuable identities. Can’t have total power over them either.

  103. Druid 说:
    @Parfois1

    And they just passed an anti-bids bill. They’re totally overtaken

    • 回复: @Wally
  104. EugeneGur 说:
    @Anon

    Germans are the world’s most honest people, and also kinesthetically inclined(good with doing things with their hands), brave, humble, civic minded, introverted and understated.

    Oh yea, we the Russians have have an ample experience with these most honest and kinesthetically inclined people. They made excellent killers, inventive, persistent, relentless, pitiless, and very very handy. These honest folks have succeeded in exterminating in my country over 13 million civilians in a most dexterous fashion.

    Where do you Nazi sympathizers come from? This pathetic site is crawling with you.

    • 回复: @Jacques Sheete
  105. Anon[424]• 免责声明 说:
    @Johnny Walker Read

    Oh ! these cruel Stalin , Oh ! these cruel russians . But if you were a relative of a russian killed by the invading germans in Leningrad , Stalingrad , Kiev , Jarkov, Smolemsk ,Moscow , etc….. a relative of one of the 13 million civilians and 10 million military russians killed by the germans , how would you feel ?

    A brother of Putin died in Leningrad , his father was wounded and his mother almost died .

    The russians behaved more humanly in the counterattack than the germans in the attack .

    The germans have been mercenaries in all sides in all the european wars

    Most of the hiwis or russian nazis who joined Hitler were from west Ucraina , they were the grandparents of present nazis , banderisti , of Galitizia , of west Ucraina . many of them emigrated to Canada .

  106. @Allegra

    I was raped when I was 16 years old…
    I guess I should be better off DEAD than to be raped.

    Thank you for your moral compass.

  107. wayfarer 说:

    Fortunately as divine providence would have it death is just an illusion, as a human soul is indestructible – and for better or worse the spirit is destined to wander, for eternity.

    https://www.lawofone.info/synopsis.php

  108. Vianney 说:
    @Colin Wright

    John Wear’s work is very good — lawyerly, gorensic, no drama.

    I wonder if he has explored the decision – making around the destruction:
    Who originated the plan?
    When was the plan conceived?
    Why so vicious and blatant?

    Both British and US forces were involved: not a spur of the moment or mere retaliatory raid.
    What was the goal? What message and to whom?

    • 回复: @Colin Wright
  109. Bill Jones 说:

    “How Many Germans Died Under RAF Bombs at Dresden in 1945?”

    Far fewer than died in Eisenhower’s post war concentration camps.

    I feel better now that I’ve got that out of the way, now, on to the article.

  110. Parfois1 说:
    @follyofwar

    Churchill’s “Unthinkable Operation” was only a garden variety conventional assault involving all the forces available to the allies, including the remnants of the German armies.

    The US operations were more thorough and sophisticated, and had more descriptive names such as “Broiler” and “Sizzler”.

    Nothing unusual, after all Roosevelt wanted Russia, Germany and Britain out of the way. Maybe Truman got cold feet, like the UK’s generals who thought “Unthinkable” less thoughtfully.

  111. @Colin Wright

    What you’re saying is that Truth is not important; what matters is the outcome you want. I agree with those who say you are not here in good faith.

    • 回复: @Colin Wright
  112. Noman 说:

    Zed的。
    Hoax. Images were faked. The cathedral, supposedly damaged, was supposedly repaired to exactly as it had been since medieval times.

    What are the chances of Notre Dame being restored to its state before the fire? Zed.

    The London Blitz was kinetic urban renewal. (ref: Jewish Lightning) The areas targeted in the bombings were slums. Renovated as high rent districts. All good Londoners were huddled in the Underground listening to sirens and explosions. No bombs ever touched Buckingham Palace or City of London. You might think those were neutral territory, like Switzerland.

    Miles Mathis has the details.

    • 回复: @utu
    , @Richard Dix
  113. Noman 说:
    @Cyrano

    Gone unmentioned is the wholesale firebombing of Japanese cities under the direction of Curtis Le May. The two supposed atomic blasts were small scale to night after night of firestorms across the home islands.

    That’s okay, as they weren’t Europeans in European cities. It was the fault of the Japanese for not having centralized manufacturing facilities like Europeans, instead Japan had a base of distributed small machine shops with families living above.

    Side note: Post WW2 Japanese cinema replayed this national horror as powerful monsters wreaking havoc on the Japanese. Flying monsters. Radioactive mutant monsters. Their army was powerless to stop the monsters. Only Perry Mason could save them.
    This trope is still seen in animes today, with cities destroyed by firestorms by unstoppable monsters. For example, the Neuroi (Strike Witches) destroying fictional nations in Western Europe through firestorms.

  114. Parfois1 说:
    @Cyrano

    Your witty metaphor is likely to be misinterpreted by some as a heartless play of words. Never thought of it that way but, indeed, the analogy is staring at you. After all, the Market rules everything, is perfect and moves in mysterious ways like a god.

  115. colm 说:

    Knock down the hideous monstrosity dedicated to the British Bombers at London. Britain is showing it is unwilling to be part of the West by erecting that kind of shit.

    • 回复: @Chris Mallory
  116. utu 说:
    @Noman

    Miles Mathis has a serious case of paranoid schizophrenia, imo. He has a talent of seducing feeble-minded like yourself with ‘insinuational’ arguments which you have just reproduced here.

  117. @Carolyn Yeager

    ‘What you’re saying is that Truth is not important; what matters is the outcome you want. I agree with those who say you are not here in good faith.’

    No…what I’m saying is what I said. 250,000 可以 have died. It’s better to stick with what can be demonstrated: some large number one side or the other of 100,000 died.

    One interesting irony — at least, apparent irony — I’ve noticed is that among the groups of people who cannot tolerate dissent and promptly resort to verbal abuse when they do encounter it are two I repeatedly clash with: Naziphiles and Zionists.

    I suppose I could take that as a compliment. What do you think of the theory that you can judge a man by his enemies?

    • 回复: @Carolyn Yeager
  118. @Biff

    actually, Truth is the only thing that does matter.

    in this case – as in others – approximate Truth is generally found

    between the main agenda-driven positions. In this case:

    Brit-‘Murkan “The Good War” apologists and their German stooges: “25,000”
    vs. Third Reich apologists & WW2 revisionists: “200,000-300,000”.

    so I’d put the Dresden body count @ c. 150,000.

    ditto the “Holocaust, Zionist Version”: 6,000,000 dead Jews and

    the “Holocaust, Denialist Version”: a few thousand dead Jews.

    and the actual approximate Jew body count, determinable by # of European Jews under Third Reich control (c. 5 million) minus c. 2 million Euro-Jews still extant in 1945, and/or via Nazi death documents:

    about 3 million. Squarely between the 2 agenda-driven lies.

    Now here comes Wallyworld: “chirp-chirp-bodies!brzzZZT! where..chirp! SQUAWK! chirp…are bodies!”

    hey Wallyworld: where are the bodies of the c. 1 million German POWs who Revisionists insist perished in Eisenhower’s Rhinemeadow cages?

    nowhere to be found, actually. But I don’t doubt for a moment, given James Bacque’s and other solid revisionist investigations, that hundreds of thousands of German POWs were murdered by Ike et. al. And I know what happened to the bodies:

    same as happened to the bodies of most the dead Jews: eventually piled up and burned, then ashes and bones dumped into the nearest river…in the latter case, the Rhine.

  119. @Vianney

    ‘…Both British and US forces were involved: not a spur of the moment or mere retaliatory raid.
    What was the goal? What message and to whom?’

    I’m afraid I’ll go with the rather pedestrian and boring theory that Bomber Command was just continuing to wage total war. You’ll notice among the reasons offered for the strike is that Dresden offered the largest unbombed urban area left in Germany.

    The mentality is that same as that of any bureaucratic organization. I remember way back in my puppy years the Army Corps of Engineers was called to task for the reason it offered for yet another dam: the stream in question was the largest undammed stream left on the Western slope of the Appalachians or something.

    Ergo, dam it, or in the case of Bomber Command, bomb it. I won’t exclude more sinister motives, but I will note they wouldn’t have been necessary. Bomber Command would more or less automatically have bombed Dresden eventually, all things being equal.

    • 回复: @Bill Jones
  120. @Haxo Angmark

    ‘actually, Truth is the only thing that does matter.

    in this case – as in others – approximate Truth is generally found

    between the main agenda-driven positions…’

    In principle, yeah. That does turn out to be the case a remarkably high percentage of the time. 9/11’s another good example, by the way. Yes, an Islamic terrorist group really did hijack the planes and fly them into those buildings, thus killing all those people. However, it’s also demonstrable that the Israelis knew about the intended attack ahead of time, and we found that out, and we didn’t dare say a word.

    However, what’s aggravating is that your case for three million Jews — or your case for one hundred thousand Dresden victims, or my 9/11 example — will rarely be considered on their merits. They will generally be dismissed as heresy by either side, the beliefs of both of which share certain characteristics with religious dogma.

  121. @Andre Citroen

    that’s right. In the 1939-45/AirWar Europe/US 8th AF/ section of my library, I’ve got a diary kept by a guy who was an American B-24 ball-turret gunner, looking down into the Dresden inferno the day after the main Brit night raid. His thoughts:

    “this…is a war crime. But I don’t care. Please, God, just let me survive my last few missions then GTF outa here alive.”

  122. @Noman

    ‘…That’s okay, as they weren’t Europeans in European cities…’

    On the bright side, the Japanese don’t get called to account for the truly horrific atrocities they perpetrated in China and elsewhere.

    They weren’t Europeans, you see. It has its advantages.

  123. @follyofwar

    ‘…The Russians were just as barbaric (especially with their thousands of rapes of German women), but at least they had cause, since the Germans had just about wiped them out.’

    I’m afraid that argument, while superficially appealing, doesn’t really wash.

    For one thing, the groups who obviously would have had reason to look for payback — Poles, released Russian P.O.W.’s, slave laborers, concentration camp inmates — while hardly notably considerate in their treatment of German civilians, by and large didn’t go on some kind of prolonged rampage of murder, rape, and pointless destruction. More like, ‘screw you; I’m taking your food — and I like this coat.’

    The criminals weren’t the same group as the victims. That’s the problem with your theory.

    • 回复: @refl
    , @EugeneGur
  124. @Colin Wright

    That’s not what you said to me and what I am replying to.
    你说:

    CY – “Jews did not originate in Europe. Nor in Khazaria, if that’s what you’re getting at. All Jews have Semitic DNA. I and my family have zero Semitic DNA, or any other than European.”

    The logic here will lead you inexorably to the conclusion that the Palestinians are the world’s most perfect Jews.

    …which works out nicely. They want to live in Palestine, and many still do.

    All we need to do is boot out the intruders, and the problem is solved.

    Got it straight, now? Good. So if Jews or Israelis and Palestinians both have Semitic DNA, that’s just a fact. Neither I nor you can change it. That doesn’t make them friends.

    Germans and Anglo-Saxons both have Germanic DNA and look what one did to the other! Those who want to put it all off on the Jews are in denial.

    • 回复: @Colin Wright
  125. Hail 说: • 您的网站
    @utu

    That is a good task for a revisionist to look into.

    There are some active revisionist researchers who really do solid, impressive work. I know there are some reading this thread. Anyone want to take on utu’s challenge?

    (1) Is the impression that a drive towards “deflating Dresden” began about the mid 2000s correct? In the sense of a top-down, organized conspiracy.

    (2) Exactly 形成一种 was that process initiated (likely initiated) ?

    (3) Exactly (names, groups) was involved on both sides to give the push for such a process?

  126. @Winnetou1889

    ‘I visited Dresden in 2017. I gave the concierge at my hotel the “how many were killed in the firebombing” quiz and he said 250,000. Hardly evidence of anything, but this is the anecdotal number I was told by a Dresden native with a family that partly perished in this unaddressed War Crime.’

    As I’ve said, 250,000 is 可能。

    My primary objections to it are two-fold. First off, it’s neither demonstrable nor necessary. Given what we know, a much lower figure is also perfectly possible — and more irrefutably demonstrated.

    The second reason I tend to edge away from it is that people, in principle, are remarkably hard to kill. The body count usually turns out to be — let’s be honest here — disappointingly low.

    It isn’t evidence so much as an illustration of my point to recite the discussion I had the morning of 9/11.

    ‘How many do you think died?’

    ‘Twenty thousand.’

    ‘Fifty thousand.’

    I chime in. ‘It’ll be under ten thousand, and I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s under five thousand. People are hard to kill.’

    ‘I dunno, Colin. I hope you’re right, but…’

    What was the final body count again? People really do have the most disconcerting ability to escape death.

    So Dresden? 250,000? We’ll never know, but obviously, there is an actual total, and I’d guess it’s a lot less than that.

    Just not 25,000. That’s even more ridiculous. I’ll 承诺 it’s north of 60,000, and I’ll put my money on 135,000, if I must pick a number. That was, after all, the figure that someone apparently just concerned with establishing an accurate count came up with.

  127. @crimson2

    ‘A lot. Glad Germany finally learned not to start stupid wars.’

    Some of your respondents are right.

    Relatively speaking, Germany — or Germany/Prussia, anyway — actually started some very intelligent wars.

    The Seven Years War worked out.

    The War of Liberation against Napoleon, for one.

    Then there was that fine series Bismarck ran off — some of most intelligent wars in history, I would say.

    Even World War One was right in principle. ‘If we must fight, better now than later’ — and they were right. They lost anyway, but they were right not to try to defer it.

    Of course, there is the argument that the whole series ended with the extinction of Prussia and the castration of Germany…I suppose that’s an argument.

    World War Two was a bit of a boner — actually, a miscalculation by Hitler. He all but admitted that when he turned to Ribbentrop after Britain and France really had gone to war and said ‘what now?’ It wasn’t the plan.

  128. @Haxo Angmark

    That’s NOT the way you discover the truth–by selecting the mid-point between two extremes. Whatever gives you the idea that would work? The truth is what actually happened, and that has to be discovered and proved by evidence … not ‘estimated.’

    • 同意: Mike P
    • 回复: @Haxo Angmark
  129. @Colin Wright

    Yes, an Islamic terrorist group really did hijack the planes and fly them into those buildings,

    If you believe that, then answer how it is that the hijackers were identified, with photos, within a couple of days, but it turned out quite a few of them were proven to be still alive and well. Yet the FBI never changed their IDs or even looked for the “real hijackers.” How do you explain that?

    • 回复: @Colin Wright
    , @FB
  130. Mulegino1 说:

    Minimal importance must be given those atrocities committed by the Allies for which there is overwhelming physical and documentary evidence.

    Likewise, all those alleged atrocities committed by the Axis-especially those against the Jews- must be magnified and given a cosmic importance, even though there is no physical or authentic documentary evidence that they ever occurred.

    That is the kosher establishment history of the Second World War in a nutshell.

    Therefore the grossly fraudulent stories about Auschwitz-Birkenau and Treblinka II must be acknowledged as unique and unprecedented evils and the real holocausts of the war- Dresden, Hamburg, Pforzheim, Tokyo, Hiroshima and Nagasaki- must be marginalized as mere ancillary incidents in the great conflict which was fought to liberate Europe and spread democracy all over the globe.

    Every kosher mind must acknowledge that the Second World War was a mere sideshow which occurred during the Holocaust.

    • 同意: Carolyn Yeager
  131. @Carolyn Yeager

    the procedure is strictly empirical. Why?

    因为它有效。

    every. single. time. And

    “what actually happened,”

    while in-and-of-itself is indeed an absolute,

    can never be more than approximated

    by post-hoc history. Best that we can do is base it on as dense as possible a matrix

    of intersecting lines of evidence. Thus, despite Wallyworld’s debunking of 2 holocaust memoirs (wolfgirl, wilkomirsky) and partly deconstructing a couple others (Weisel, Frank)…they’ve still got about 15,000 others to deal with. Some of them quite impressive. And no doubt they’ll keep chipping away, which is useful to those of us who do seek Truth…and Penitence.

    PS: TANSTAAFL sends his regards.

  132. @Colin Wright

    it’s only aggravating if you are deeply concerned with, say, what Wallyworld Denialists or Zionist Liars think. I’m not. They’re no more than useful tools for approximating what actually happened. If, for an unlikely example, Wallyworld suceeds in debunking the Einsatzgruppen reports – and I don’t mean via the usual innuendo and non-sequiters, I mean via hard evidence of fabrication – then the Jew body count drops by another million. We’ll see what develops, it’s all grist for the mill.

    • 回复: @Colin Wright
  133. @Carolyn Yeager

    We need a ‘loon’ button.

    Too bad I’m not exactly on good terms with Senor Unz.

    • 回复: @Jacques Sheete
  134. @Carolyn Yeager

    ‘How do you explain that?’

    Here’s a hint for you, you exasperating bitch. If you actually want to have a dialogue with somebody, don’t lead off by grossly and indefensibly insulting them.

  135. @colm

    Britain is the West. The wogs begin at Calais.

    Germans and Africans have much in common. They both need a strong man to give them orders. They are unable to think on their own.

    Both groups are prone to whine that they “dindu nuffin”.

    • 回复: @Xityl
  136. @Haxo Angmark

    ‘it’s only aggravating if you are deeply concerned with, say, what Wallyworld Denialists or Zionist Liars think. I’m not…’

    Well, yeah; but having on occasion engaged in fruitful and intelligent dialogue, it really can help you to develop, refine, and even — God forbid — revise your ideas. We are not born with a grasp of the truth; we approach it, and that requires both intellectual honesty and rigor. It helps if one’s interlocutors are making the same effort.

    This is as opposed to the usual deluge of fantasy, deliberate dishonesty, invective, sophistry, quasi-religious orthodoxy, and sheer, mind-numbing idiocy one encounters.

  137. Wally 说:
    @Parfois1

    说过:
    “You may be impervious to some ideas but are a reliable source to debunk official lies.”

    Really? So what ideas are those?

    干杯。

  138. Wally 说:
    @Druid

    You mean Germany just passed an Orwellian anti BDS law.

    犹太人权力的上升与限制言论自由的运动和限制的上升同时发生。 海事组织,没有意外。
    -凯文·麦克唐纳(@TOOEdit)1年2019月XNUMX日

    • 回复: @Robjil
  139. @Hail

    “My impression is the drive towards deflating Dresden began in the mid 2000s, which is when David Irving began a years-long running section on his website about Dresden and its death toll controversy.”

    It actually began much earlier. I clearly remember watching the CBS evening news coverage of the 50th anniversary of the bombing in 1995. They baldly stated the 35,000 death toll as authoritative with no mention of controversy of the true number. I had already read David Irving’s book about the controversy and was stunned at the mendacity of the mainstream media.

    Worse still, they blatantly lied about protests in Dresden about the bombing as “protests against Nazism.” I was gobsmacked that supposedly respectable media could be so despicable. I knew they bent the truth sometimes, but little did I realize until then how low they were capable of going.

    • 回复: @Colin Wright
    , @anon
  140. Boofeckinhoo. If ye can’t take it, don’t dish it out, you Stuka pilots.
    My old man was in 61 Sq. , nav./b.a.
    Never saw a German. Got on great with ex-SS lads after the War, up the Alps and ski-ing/climbing. Same as before the War. Year after year, like a weird alpinist losers’ reunion, till his legs went in the ’70s.
    You couldn’t have separated their political views with a Sheffield-ground razor.

  141. @nickels

    And now we understand why the holowcaust narrative had to be invented-pure projection.

    That, and distraction.

  142. @Hamlet's Ghost

    ‘…Worse still, they blatantly lied about protests in Dresden about the bombing as “protests against Nazism.” I was gobsmacked that supposedly respectable media could be so despicable. I knew they bent the truth sometimes, but little did I realize until then how low they were capable of going.’

    Peculiarly, you may be giving them too much credit.

    People simply see what they want to see. If Germans are demonstrating (good) and it’s to do with World War Two, what would be good?

    Why, demonstrating against Nazism. It’s pretty simple, really.

    Alternatively, it may have been more cynical. Five minute feature has been prepared covering anniversary of bombing and incorporating footage of the demonstration. Hmm…we don’t say why they were demonstrating. WHAT? Oh, that’ll involve all kinds of additional commentary, disavowals, explanations, condemnations, and so on.

    Just say they’re demonstrating against Nazism. So much simpler.

  143. @Anon

    Why the germans resisted to the end ?… They should have done like the more inteligent italians , rebel , desert , surrender , hang the führer , shoot the SS …….

    They were ready to throw in the towel, but the enraging crackpot, FDR, insisted on “unconditional surrender”. Even Stalin was appalled and pissed about it, and in fact was already approaching the subject in a more reasonable fashion.

    With an absolute minimum of charm [Stalin] told Roosevelt at their first plenary session [in Tehran] that his policy of unconditional surrender was a very bad idea.

    ——托马斯·弗莱明, The New Dealer’s War , chap 13 Shaking Hands with Murder, p311 (2001)

  144. @Noman

    Often forgotten here in the U. S. is how LeMay (and a young Robert McNamara) incinerated 70% of Japan’s urban space. What occurred to Germany was doubtless a horror, but so was what happened to Japan.

    Nevertheless, the Germans are humanized, even by their detractors, with a sympathy rarely extended to the Japanese. Acquaintance with the art, music, and literature of wartime Japan, however, reveals the Japanese as being far from the fanatical, Emperor-worshipping insects of American wartime and postwar propaganda. John W. Dower once stated that of all the belligerents involved in the Second World War, none matched the quality and beauty of Japan’s wartime artistic endeavors. Which brings to mind what a young Mishima Yukio would write into his diaries in 1944, that if only Roosevelt could see Japan’s culture and understand that it was trying to 保存 Western civilization from Russian and Chinese communists, that he would then realize the error of his war.

    A lot of these misconceptions and stereotypes have to do with the myth that the Japanese regarded the Shōwa Emperor as a “living god”. It says a lot about the quality of Western historians that this fantasy has not only persisted, but over 70 years later is still employed to justify all kinds of atrocities. To start with, no right-thinking Japanese ever regarded the Emperor as a “god” in the Western sense of a superhuman being existing beyond and defying the limitations of temporal reality. This is false. Rather, the Emperor was a pope-like figure who was regarded as the living embodiment of the Japanese national spirit; not only the sovereign of the Japanese, but their ultimate exemplar and representative. The attempt at a “Shōwa Restoration” in the 1930s, for example, was not borne from an impulse to impose his totalitarian authority. Rather, Japanese nationalists regarded direct imperial rule as the only way the will of the people could be exercised.

    Consider the very misleading Western translation for the term referring to the Japanese head-of-state. His position’s endonym is tennō (天皇), a term with neither political, nor supernatural connotations that roughly means “celestial sovereign”. The fact that the Emperor did not actually rule, even during wartime, and that there is in Japanese a term which does mean “emperor” in the Western sense—kōtei (皇帝) whose second kanji, interestingly enough, implies godlike attributes—already debunks the “Emperor as god” propaganda nonsense.

    Also, despite all propaganda, the Japanese were 不能 the aggressors in the Pacific War. Japan did not pick a fight with the U. S.—but Roosevelt made it impossible for them not to act militarily. Nor did the Japanese want to “beat” the U. S. Their aims were rather more modest, essentially reaching an understanding that East Asia was their concern, just as the Americas were the U. S.’

    • 同意: Tusk
    • 回复: @anon
    , @L.K
  145. @Johnny Walker Read

    What you say is true, but even Stalin wasn’t as crazed as FDR, who insisted upon applying the Talmudically fiendish concept of unconditional surrender to both Germany and Japan.

  146. @Andre Citroen

    6 万这个数字是在犹太人处于困境时使用的塔木德隐喻。 几个世纪以来,它已被无数次使用。

    我毫不怀疑这种说法的真实性,但你能指出我的一篇文章或几篇可以充实这个概念的文章吗?

    • 回复: @Andre Citroen
  147. @buzzwar

    That was the real holocaust of WW2.

    It was one of many. In fact, the whole thing was a massive goy holocaust and I think accountability, reparations, and restitution are way overdue.

  148. @Carolyn Yeager

    Churchill’s mother was not Jewish (thus nor was he), Frederick Lindemann was not Jewish, but three people here seem to agree they were. I believed those “facts” for awhile simply because so many other people did, until I gained the confidence to be more demanding of valid evidence and break with the crowd.

    Regale us with your “valid evidence” or your claim is rot.

  149. Thank you for this article. I would rank the atomic bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki as the number 1 war crime of WW2 committed by the allies but the bombing of. Dresden ranks a close second.

  150. @S

    One of these is that the ‘Grand Union’ flag chosen to fly over and symbolize the American Revolution during the years 1776 -1777 is for practical purposes identical to that of the multi-national corporation British East India Company flag.

    True and I think significant. I’ve never seen anyone other than myself post a comment like that and I’ve never had a response of any kind and I find that perplexing.

    I would also note that the BEIC was a government subsidized monopoly with its own (bloody) private army but even at that was a money loser if I remember correctly.

    • 回复: @S
    , @S
    , @refl
  151. MBlanc46 说:

    Jaysus, will it never end? I’m so sick of hearing about the “Holocaust” that I can barely keep my breakfast down. Now I gave to hear about Dresden, too? People, it was almost 75 years ago. I wasn’t even born, and I’m an old man. I suppose next we’ll have Dresden Studies departments in universities. It was a long time ago. Let it go.

  152. @EugeneGur

    Where do you Nazi sympathizers come from? This pathetic site is crawling with you.

    Grrrrrrrr! Woof woof! Bow-wow-wow! Yap, yap, yap!

  153. FB 说: • 您的网站
    @Carolyn Yeager

    Yes, an Islamic terrorist group really did hijack the planes and fly them into those buildings,

    If you believe that, then answer how it is that the hijackers were identified, with photos, within a couple of days, but it turned out quite a few of them were proven to be still alive and well.

    Because ‘Colin Wright’ is severely retarded and can barely orient himself in 3D space…much less have any access to common sense…

  154. @Colin Wright

    We need a ‘loon’ button.

    What do you have against some poor little diving birds?

  155. @Colin Wright

    Here’s a hint for you, you exasperating bitch. If you actually want to have a dialogue with somebody, don’t lead off by grossly and indefensibly insulting them.

    Hope I’m not being exasperating, but you caught on pretty quickly. Charming little bird, no? Let’s tell her that Fatima called and wants her to come over and help her find the truth, and if she does she has a fine pair of Israeli made sandals waiting just for her. 🙂

    • 回复: @Tusk
  156. anon[273]• 免责声明 说:
    @Hamlet's Ghost

    说谎的骗子

    they do they same thing with Charlottesville, where they now pretend the event was all about white soopremacists and neo-nazis

  157. Mike P 说:

    On several German websites, Eberhard Matthes, the Wehrmacht officer then in charge of Dresden military district, who is said to have been in charge of tabulating the casualties, is quoted with 35,000 dead fully identified, 50,000 “partially” identified (whatever that means), and 168,000 that were impossible to identify. The total is close to 250,000, and the proportion of those at least partially identified to the total is one third, similar to the numbers stated by the Dresden civilian police (30% identified among 202,040 dead recovered as of March 20th 1945).

    I have not found a date for Matthes’ statement, but it seems likely that his statistics were compiled somewhat later than those of the police, and some 50,000 additional victims had been recovered.

    I see no reason to disbelieve those who were there and in charge of managing the aftermath of the disaster. The death toll is clearly above 200,000.

  158. anon[273]• 免责声明 说:
    @Nicolás Palacios Navarro

    Nevertheless, the Germans are humanized, even by their detractors, with a sympathy rarely extended to the Japanese

    不正确的

    the Japanese invaded all of southeast asia and slaughtered Chinese civilians by the millions, maybe 10+ millions – and it largely goes unmentioned in today’s media

  159. @crimson2

    A lot. Glad Germany finally learned not to start stupid wars.

    Maybe they could teach the USA, but I doubt it because the leadership of the masses of dumb goyim are even more clueless. Besides, how could you forget about the New York Jews who declared war on Germany in 1933? That was the same year Hitler had just come into power and when FDR recognized the USSR.

  160. @Colin Wright

    You would be very mistaken in this assertion. The Japanese are forever made to remember about their supposed “war crimes” whenever it is politically convenient for the Chinese and Koreans. Or for the Americans, for that matter. After all, Japanese foreign policy is helplessly tethered to that of the U. S. in large part because of lingering guilt about the war.

    I have mentioned in other posts how postwar guilt results in bizarre subterfuges and euphemisms Japan in order to refer to their modern defensive armaments and military. Such a phenomenon does not exist even in Germany.

    As with the Germans, allegations of these “war crimes” are largely exaggerations or postwar fabrications. Moreover, both Chinese and especially Koreans were very often complicit in the ones that were undeniably true.

    • 不同意: Colin Wright
    • 回复: @L.K
    , @Che Guava
    , @Colin Wright
  161. Tusk 说:
    @Jacques Sheete

    You may as well block Colin, it seems he is almost paid to be here and ruin every thread with his incessant whining against the grain of the article.

    • 回复: @Colin Wright
  162. @Jake

    Cromwell’s wife was Jewish, and so was his son in law. I have read madam Fraser’s biography and I did see the pictures. It was Cromwell who did allow Jews back in England. There were naturally always many Jews in England but They did not admit that they were Jews. And they did their clandestine work. But it was Cromwell that made it officially free their activities.

  163. @anon

    the Japanese invaded all of southeast asia and slaughtered Chinese civilians by the millions, maybe 10+ millions – and it largely goes unmentioned in today’s media

    Oh, dear. No. Invaded Southeast Asia and China they certainly did. Slaughter “millions” or even “tens of millions”?—they would not have had enough men or materiel to have accomplished this dubious feat, any more than the Germans snuffed out the “six million”. That does not stop it from being mentioned loudly and often in the Western and Japanese media.

    • 回复: @Rogue
  164. @Noman

    You said Miles Mathis… You’ve been a bad boy!

  165. @Colin Wright

    As you wrote to Ron Unz earlier today or last night (paraphrasing): “I must have said something that made you mad.”

    • 回复: @Colin Wright
  166. @Tusk

    ‘You may as well block Colin, it seems he is almost paid to be here and ruin every thread with his incessant whining against the grain of the article.’

    It’s comic to realize what you’re implicitly advocating, and the nature of the site you’re advocating it at.

    Only assent with the dissent is permitted. Have I got it right?

  167. @Carolyn Yeager

    ‘As you wrote to Ron Unz earlier today or last night (paraphrasing): “I must have said something that made you mad.” ‘

    Evidently you did. I’m not particularly happy with myself for using such language towards a woman.

    • 回复: @Xityl
    , @Carolyn Yeager
  168. @mark green

    Thanks I hadn’t read that before and it was informative.
    I don’t believe Adolf Hitler and Eva Braun did die by their own hand as commonly taught. I believe the case has been made for his and Eva’s escape (drugged against his will I think actually) and removal to Argentina. There is a lot of controversy around this but it is fake, since the research by Cooper is solid and the FBI confirms it. Basically as it says, a stunning truth hidden in plain sight.

    https://newspunch.com/fbi-hitler-didnt-die-fled-to-argentina-stunning-admission/

    • 回复: @Carolyn Yeager
  169. Moi 说:
    @anonymous1963

    Nah, we interfere anywhere we please. In are unique in that sense.

  170. Robjil 说:
    @Wally

    Germany could do a BDS for Israel for what Israel’s does to Latin America. Israel bothers the entire world. Our media does not notice what Israel does to places outside Palestine or Middle East. Honduras is a colony of Israel. It is the second poorest nation in the Americas. There is no Tikun Olam going on there. People from Honduras are fleeing to our borders. Is Honduras the future of the US and the west?

    https://savageminds.org/2016/03/18/israels-foreign-policy-in-latin-america-another-reason-to-take-the-call-to-boycott-seriously/

    “Latin Americanist anthropologists, indeed all anthropologists, should learn about the effects of Israeli foreign policy upon the places where they work, then learn about the parallels with Israeli domestic policy. This knowledge is critical when making any decision to boycott or not, because as anthropologists, we know that states operate in complex international arenas but often reproduce their own exclusionary nationalisms in doing so. I decided to support the boycott of Israeli academic institutions on the basis of what I have learned…”

    Consider Boycott

    “……..Israel’s list of friends and partners in Latin America reflect deliberate and systemic political, economic and ideological commitments to military and right-wing regimes that have violently defended social systems based upon profound racial, economic and political inequalities. Together these comprise a coherent and proactive policy, rather than a series of provisional or extemporaneous compromises with harsh realities.”

    “Latin Americanist scholars, as well as other anthropologists, can fruitfully understand the violence against Palestinian communities conducted by both the IDF and the settler para-militaries through the prism of Israel’s historic alliances in Latin America, and the current relationship between Israel and Colombia. Because of the profound effect of these historical and current relationships, I would also argue that it is incumbent upon Latin Americanist scholars to consider supporting the call from Palestinian civil society to boycott Israeli academic institutions, where the military resources for all of these actions – in Palestine and in Latin America – are developed and nurtured.”

    https://www.justice.gov/eoir/file/861076/download

    About who rules Honduras

    “Instead, the country’s most powerful economic elites have emerged from the service, banking, media, and telecommunications sectors. They are called transnational elites since many of them are first or second generation immigrants from the Middle East and Eastern Europe and depend on international business dealings to accumulate capital. Traditional, land-based elites are present inHonduras. But they have long been relegated to a second tier, forced they have long been relegated to a second tier, forced to seek power through control of government posts, rather than using financial leverage.”

    Who are these ME and Eastern Europeans who rule Honduras?

    https://dagobertobellucci.wordpress.com/2011/11/17/the-jewish-families-that-run-honduras/

    “即使每个人都称他们为'土耳其人',他们实际上都是犹太裔家庭,来自40年代和50年代的阿拉伯国家,远离沙漠和战争。 它们是Rosenthals,Facussé,Larachs,Nassers,Kafies和Goldsteins。 五个姓氏控制着制造业,能源公用事业,电信,旅游业,银行,金融,混凝土制造商和商业,机场或国会。 几乎所有的东西。
    他们是控制着3%国民生产总值的40%洪都拉斯人的核心。 他们是这个国家70%的贫困人口的贵族。”

  171. Xityl 说:
    @onebornfree

    Yeah I’m red-pilled on nukes, ie. they do not exist.
    Anyone who looks into it deeply will soon realize Hiroshima and Nagasaki were fire bombed, and the 40s and 50s nuke test footage is fake, and those giant mushroom clouds are tall towers of TNT exploding. There even exists footage of these towers in construction with commentary on what they are. It’s just more government lies to mutilate the truth (ie God’s spiritual body) and affront our human dignity. Because these jewish satanists so despise human beings.

  172. Xityl 说:
    @Colin Wright

    Stop being a craven cuckold.
    You can say anything you want to a western whore woman, because they sure as hell do not warrant the respect such restraint entails.
    When these silly sluts start acting like women again, you can larp that 19th century gentleman persona again. But presently such pathetic theatrics have no currency–especially not among whores. But don’t take my word for it cuck. Go find out for yourself. Go treat a whore like a queen and see what happens lmfao

    • 回复: @Colin Wright
  173. Xityl 说:
    @Chris Mallory

    Nah, Anglos are nothing but a bunch of pathalogically selfish craven Hobbesian rat men only interested in their own material advancement. Britain is the home of these bizarre materialistic property-fetishizing ideas. Unsurprisingly Brtain is without question the most judaized European nation, both culturally and genetically. Hardly do I meet one of these alcoholic curb slime Anglos who do not have at least some jewish blood in them, and it shows in their behaviour.
    Enjoy being New Pakistan you failed race.

  174. refl 说:
    @eah

    “Precision weapons” – granted I should go through your link to evaluate, but did you really say “precision weapons”?

    The Colateral Murder video shows you how they hit precisely that journalist and precisely that ambulance. The children dying in Irak of cancer do so precisely because of depleted uranium! Wake up, man!

    Wach auf, du Blödmann (sorry for that one, but I just had to)!

    • 哈哈: eah
    • 回复: @Colin Wright
  175. Rogue 说:
    @Nicolás Palacios Navarro

    Thousands of British, American and Australian ex POW’s of the Japanese in WW2 have testified of the brutality and sadism of the Japanese soldiers (guards) towards them.

    That alone jars a little with the picture you’re trying to paint.

  176. refl 说:
    @Haxo Angmark

    hey Wallyworld: where are the bodies of the c. 1 million German POWs who Revisionists insist perished in Eisenhower’s Rhinemeadow cages?

    Try to dig and you will be prosecuted by federal GERMAN authorities. There is the story of a farmer who owned the land where he knew the graves were, and he got legal trouble for digging on his own land.
    Bodies were undressed, dogtags were taken of, the ground is humid – so not much to be found after more then 70 years.
    In fact, there should be an easy way to find out: research who was in the relevant units of the German troops at surrender time and who was alive at the time when the two states were founded. These people were rather young so few would have died of natural causes. Take samples, make an estimate.

    As the German state is thoroughly against such research, nothing much can be expected.

    But I want to make another point: It should be known that hundreds of thousands of Sowiet POW died on the eastern front in late 1941. This is something that should be remembered. This remembrance can not be complete without an honest assessment of the Rheinwiesenlager.

    It is mindboggeling that the Sowiets might have treated their POW better then the Americans did, while the OKW was trying to the last day to extricate troops towards the West where they expected them to be received as fellow (west)-humans.

    • 同意: Che Guava
  177. Che Guava 说:

    The minimisatiom of Dresden deaths is so clearly a lie.

    It is funny that we don’t get the same bullshit re. Tokyo and other cities here, although my opinion is that they are understated, too, in many cases, but nothing to the extent of the constant lies about Dresden. At least more than *100,000* were incinerated there, I would trust Kurt Vnnnegut’s estimate and the documents Irving found, above professional liars.

    • 回复: @Colin Wright
  178. refl 说:
    @Colin Wright

    On the bright side, the Japanese don’t get called to account for the truly horrific atrocities they perpetrated in China and elsewhere.

    To once more explain the rules of the revisionist game:
    I know that the relevant authorities I am supposed to trust have lied to me consistently over that the most basical issues. Where ever I look, I have found that important facts were completely erased from the record.
    It follows by necessity that I am to expect the same to be true in the quarters that are more distant to me.

    So, I take note that there are stories about Japanese atrocities in China, that in its time vilification of Japan was a fundamental interest of the ptb – then I have to take a closer look.

    • 同意: L.K
  179. refl 说:
    @Colin Wright

    The same applies to this comment as to the above one – the difference being that here I do have some knowledge:
    The guard troops passed through and the order broke down. Justice for the Germans was no concern, and you are allowed to suppose that mass violence was welcome in helping the eviction that followed. Am I excusing anything?

    It is always the same: Soviet violence – common place argument – I have grown with up with these stories! – misstreatment of any kind in the West – you are a Neonazi for just mentioning it. The whole story has been banned.

  180. EugeneGur 说:
    @Colin Wright

    For one thing, the groups who obviously would have had reason to look for payback — Poles, released Russian P.O.W.’s, slave laborers, concentration camp inmates

    Everyone in Russia had a reason for a payback. There is hardly a family in Russia that hasn’t lost someone in that war; most lost several members, their homes, and suffered unbelievable hardships.

    Our soldiers , before they got to Germany, had ample chance to witness the Germans’ handiwork in their cities; many lost their families back home to the bombing raids (speaking of Dresden!), hunger, diseases, or plain executions. Everyone had a reason to hate the Germans, everyone. And the fact that we hadn’t wipe out the entire Germany speaks to our humanity, actually – misplaced, perhaps.

    You just don’t get it, do you? You don’t get the degree of destruction and death those fine Europeans of yours inflicted on my country. Dresden is another matter altogether, naturally.

    didn’t go on some kind of prolonged rampage of murder, rape, and pointless destruction.

    No such thing happened; there is not a single piece of evidence to support this notion. Just the usual – endless repetition of a lie.

    • 回复: @Colin Wright
  181. Che Guava 说:

    Yes.and mainly by the British. They were sending all of theis PoWs back to the Ussr. They were not rusian captives, but Red Armz troops who had been captured by the Germans.

    So, Britain shipped them all back to Russia to enjoy years in the Gulags That was a major operation.

    Britain also .had many German pows, and treated them abysmally, I have a book by the commandante of one such camp, he had no interest in the Geneva conventioos, violated them at will.

    恶心。

    • 回复: @Colin Wright
  182. @EugeneGur

    ‘…No such thing happened; there is not a single piece of evidence to support this notion. Just the usual – endless repetition of a lie.’

    In that case, I think I’ll take the same position with regards to World War Two in its entirety: no such thing happened. Just the usual — endless repetition of a lie.

    • 回复: @EugeneGur
  183. @Xityl

    ‘Stop being a craven cuckold.
    You can say anything you want to a western whore woman, because they sure as hell do not warrant the respect such restraint entails.
    When these silly sluts start acting like women again, you can larp that 19th century gentleman persona again. But presently such pathetic theatrics have no currency–especially not among whores…’

    I don’t engage in the behavior to gain her respect — it’s to retain my own.

    • 回复: @Xityl
  184. @refl

    ‘…The Colateral Murder video shows you how they hit precisely that journalist and precisely that ambulance. The children dying in Irak of cancer do so precisely because of depleted uranium! Wake up, man!’

    That video is actually an interesting case. A guy I associate with on the internet of what might be described as Mike Pencian political tendencies insisted that the helicopter pilot was right; there was a guy carrying an RPG.

    I said nahh…and looked again, and still said nahh. But it’s there; the third time I saw it. One of the group is indeed carrying an RPG. So then they approach US troops and appear to be sighting down the street at them. That guy just had a camera. but who knows? Dude with the RPG might have decided to take a shot.

    The helicopter pilot was supposed to wait and see? After all, even in Iraq, an RPG isn’t for home security.

    That takes us to shooting up the van picking up the wounded. Okay; that was pretty harsh, but this was counter-insurgency war. More to the point, that was an RPG. The footage has been presented as evidence of a war crime, but it’s just the opposite. The initial shooting was perfectly justified. If you want to go for a walk in Baghdad unmolested, don’t take an RPG.

    • 回复: @refl
  185. @Che Guava

    ‘The minimisatiom of Dresden deaths is so clearly a lie.

    It is funny that we don’t get the same bullshit re. Tokyo and other cities here, although my opinion is that they are understated, too, in many cases, but nothing to the extent of the constant lies about Dresden…’

    It is interesting — and infuriating, too, but also interesting. After all, burning 25,000 people to death isn’t qualitatively different than burning 135,000 to death, or 240,000. Have at it: the actual number of dead won’t change, and it’s a horrific act whatever the total.

    One would think the debate would arouse all the passion of whether pre-Columbian Mexico had a population of four million or forty million. It should be just a matter of attempting to make the best good-faith estimate possible. We don’t condemn a school shooter who manages to bag twenty three, but excuse one who ‘only’ got five. When it comes to moral culpability, it’s the thought that counts — not final bag.

    So one would think.

    But no. Ironically, it’s the same as with the Holocaust. I can virtue-signal by agreeing to six million, or I can play footsie with the bad people by insisting on three million. One would think it wouldn’t matter; surely both totals constitute a horrific atrocity, and the actual number of dead isn’t going to shift. No one’s going to come back to life because I make a compelling argument for three million, nor will they fall over dead if I fail to.

    These numbers become symbols. The Dresden fire storm happened, and the Bomber Command indubitably did their damnedest to incinerate as many Germans as possible. Neither fact is in dispute. Yet you’re a neo-Nazi if you assert 240,000 died, and a good-thinker if you agree with 25,000. Anything in between will get you vilified by both parties.

    It’s absurd. One is no longer discussing facts, but taking up an ideological position disguised as fact. You cannot participate in a factual debate on the subject. You can only take up arms for the ideological side of your choice.

    • 同意: turtle
  186. @Rabbitnexus

    I believe the case has been made for his and Eva’s escape (drugged against his will I think actually) and removal to Argentina. There is a lot of controversy around this but it is fake, since the research by Cooper is solid and the FBI confirms it

    LOL times 100. “I believe” because you want to believe not because the research is solid. Have you ever read the research on the other side? Since you had never bothered to read Hitler’s Last Will and Testament, probably not.

  187. @Che Guava

    ‘…Britain also .had many German pows, and treated them abysmally, I have a book by the commandante of one such camp, he had no interest in the Geneva conventioos, violated them at will.

    Disgusting.’

    I think that one of the less attractive aspects of human nature is our tendency to behave most viciously when we are certain our victims can’t retaliate.

    One saw this in the American Civil War. It was when victory had become certain that Sherman started burning a swathe across the South — not before. In the colonial wars, some of the most brutal behavior began when it became a matter of Maxim machine guns versus spears — muzzle-loading muskets really had been much chancier. When the Germans assumed they were just going to roll over Russia — in the summer and fall of 1941 — is precisely when they callously allowed literally millions of Russian P.O.W.’s to starve to death.

    Ditto for the behavior of the victorious Allies in their year of victory.

    Naturally, various other factors intervene in all these cases as well — but it is an observable fact that we’re cruelest when we’re sure our victims can’t retaliate. We’ll pull the wings off a fly, but we’ll think twice before we kick a Rottweiler.

    We’re really not very nice in this respect.

    • 回复: @Che Guava
  188. @Colin Wright

    但你 没有 answer my simple question, did you? It could easily be interpreted that your excessive anger and language was simply a ruse to allow you to avoid it.

    how it is that the hijackers were identified, with photos, within a couple of days, but it turned out quite a few of them were proven to be still alive and well. Yet the FBI never changed their IDs or even looked for the “real hijackers.” How do you explain that?

    I’m still waiting, therefore, for your answer.

  189. @Rogue

    It was a bitterly fought war, but no more savage on the Pacific than it was in Europe. The Japanese were fighting for the survival of their nation and had plenty of reason to despise Anglo-Americans. They had, after all, pushed it into the wider war in the first place.

    Nor were the Anglo-Americans themselves exactly paragons of martial gentlemanliness and virtue, something oft romanticized postwar. H. L. Mencken seemed to be one of the few Americans of that period unfazed by propaganda of that period. According to a diary entry from April 14, 1943 recording his impressions of a Naval press conference at the Maryland Club:

    A number of newspaper correspondents were present and the chief hero on exhibition was the commander of an American submarine squadron on the Japanese front. This commander reported that he had sunk three or four small transports and probably disposed of several thousand Japanese soldiers. One of the reporters asked him what he had done when those soldiers were thrown into the water. His answer was: “I machine-gunned the sons of bitches.” The officer in charge of the conference thereupon said to the reporters: “Please, remember, gentlemen, this is off the record.”

    But I find it so amusing that the same people who are so quick to question or denounce the sacred cows of the European front unthinkingly and outright believe every single one about the Pacific War.

    • 回复: @Rogue
  190. EugeneGur 说:
    @Colin Wright

    In that case, I think I’ll take the same position with regards to World War Two in its entirety: no such thing happened. Just the usual — endless repetition of a lie.

    Cute. Do you know what the word “evidence” means? I guess not.
    You are almost there, though: you all discuss WWII as if the only fighting that mattered happened between Germany and Britain.

    • 回复: @Colin Wright
  191. S 说:
    @Vianney

    I wonder if the ‘army pal’ of Vonnegut’s you speak of was the same ‘friend’ Vonnegut described on an NPR radio interview some years back. The friend was a fellow American POW who had survived the bombing of Dresden and like Vonnegut had been made to help in the ‘clean-up’ of the fire bombing’s grisly aftermath.

    Upon their release in 1945 and having returned to the United States, Vonnegut’s friend heard the official explanation that Dresden was ‘a legitimate military target’, and hence its bombing and destruction.

    Afterwards the friend told Vonnegut he would never trust or believe the US government on any pronouncement it made ever again.

    It surprised me at the time that NPR would broadcast such a statement rather than censor it out, as WWII, much unlike what is said of a good many of the other wars the US has participated in, is supposed to unquestionably (and without doubt) be ‘the good war’…or so goes the official narrative.

    Perhaps Vonnegut had it pre-arranged with NPR that nothing gets cut or he wouldn’t agree to the interview.

  192. Rogue 说:
    @Nicolás Palacios Navarro

    That there were scumbags on all sides in this war, as no doubt in all wars, is not in debate.

    Hardly the same thing as even 依稀 trying to draw an equivalence between Japanese and Western Allied treatment of POW’s in the Pacific/Indian theaters, especially with regards to longtime imprisonment (heat of battle situations tend not to comply with Geneva conventions).

    FWIW, I’m not one iota anti Japanese – on the contrary, they are a truly admirable race – but historical revisionism is only worthwhile if it’s truthful, not merely revisionist.

    I’m not buying your argument. Neither were the Japanese 强迫 to attack the USA.

    Provoked, yes. Forced, no. Certainly Yamamoto had few illusions about taking on the USA’s industrial might.

    Or is that propaganda as well?

  193. Xityl 说:
    @Colin Wright

    Hahaha whatever that means…
    There is absolutely nothing respectable about a delusional obstinate nice guy in this day and age. Victorian England called; they want their gentleman theatrics back.
    Keep cosplaying.

    • 回复: @Colin Wright
  194. S 说:
    @Noman

    Interesting that you would say that as I once heard a prominent US talk show host repeat the very same thing in regards to what a Japanese friend had told him. Godzilla and his practically unstoppable violence and destruction towards the Japanese and its military was supposed to symbolize the United States during WW II.

  195. Che Guava 说:

    Your ‘logic’ is very strange, but you may stick to it.

    If one is incinerated, at the time it is happening, sure, with the exception of thoughts of family, on the personal level, nnmbers may not matter.

    However, the obvious and systematic lies to minimise the death toll in Dresden, do matter.

  196. Che Guava 说:
    @Rogue

    So, where the carriers? Floating about in what is now one of the major garbage gyres, where ships don’t usually go.

    Accident or intention?

    Logic would have the latter.

    • 回复: @Rogue
  197. @Xityl

    ‘Hahaha whatever that means…
    There is absolutely nothing respectable about a delusional obstinate nice guy in this day and age. Victorian England called; they want their gentleman theatrics back.
    Keep cosplaying.’

    Where but Unz could I be abused for regretting using profanity to address a woman?

    This is a unique space.

    • 回复: @Xityl
  198. @EugeneGur

    ‘You are almost there, though: you all discuss WWII as if the only fighting that mattered happened between Germany and Britain…’

    I’d be surprised if you could produce any quotation from me to justify that statement.

    …but believe it if you want to. You can believe I have red hair and live in Minneapolis if you like. It’s all the same to me.

  199. L.K 说:
    @Nicolás Palacios Navarro

    The Japanese are forever made to remember about their supposed “war crimes” whenever it is politically convenient for the Chinese and Koreans. Or for the Americans, for that matter. After all, Japanese foreign policy is helplessly tethered to that of the U. S. in large part because of lingering guilt about the war.

    完全正确。

    Don’t bother with this Colin guy though, he is a troll.

  200. @Rogue

    Hardly the same thing as even 依稀 trying to draw an equivalence between Japanese and Western Allied treatment of POW’s in the Pacific/Indian theaters, especially with regards to longtime imprisonment (heat of battle situations tend not to comply with Geneva conventions).

    当然有 没有 equivalence between the bombing raids of the Japanese and the Americans. Even when the Japanese did bomb cities like Shanghai and Nanking, their intention was not extermination of the civilian population or the utter destruction of their cities. They wanted to take those cities, after all, and exploit them not only for their resources, but for the photogenic purposes of their domestic propaganda. The Americans, on the other hand, were bent on exterminating the Japanese as a race. Was there not a Gallup poll from 1944 that demonstrated that no less than 13% of the American public was in favor of exterminating all Japanese, including Japanese-Americans?

    As somebody who has lived in Japan, has researched and lectured upon topics related to the Pacific War, and has spent much time at the National Diet Library looking through artifacts and documents from the immediate prewar and wartime eras, there is nowhere in the propaganda of those eras the genocidal connotations that were commonplace in the U. S. Nor was there any genocidal intent among Japanese military and political leaders. The same cannot be said for the Americans.

    I’m not buying your argument. Neither were the Japanese forced to attack the USA.

    Nor did I ever expect you to “buy” anything. Old myths die hard, especially in a country whose recent history provides few reassuring new ones to sustain it.

    The American paranoia about Japan and the resultant wish to destroy it went back to at least their victory in the Russo-Japanese War, and possibly further back to the U. S. annexation of Hawaii. (A territory which the Hawaiian crown had once offered to Japan.)

    • 回复: @Rogue
    , @EugeneGur
    , @Malla
  201. L.K 说:
    @Nicolás Palacios Navarro

    Often forgotten here in the U. S. is how LeMay (and a young Robert McNamara) incinerated 70% of Japan’s urban space. What occurred to Germany was doubtless a horror, but so was what happened to Japan.

    非常真实。

    Nevertheless, the Germans are humanized, even by their detractors

    I’m not so sure about that though…

    Also, despite all propaganda, the Japanese were not the aggressors in the Pacific War. Japan did not pick a fight with the U. S.—but Roosevelt made it impossible for them not to act militarily.

    Prof. of Foreign Policy Robert Thompson’s book ‘A Time for War’ is one of a few good books that tear apart many of the myths.

    Robert S. Thompson argues cogently that the FDR administration was neither isolationist nor neutral, as it claimed and that the attack of Pearl Harbor was Japan’s preemptive response to American provocations.
    Thompson presents evidence that after 1937, the Fdr administration covertly assisted China in its war against Japan; that early in 1941, American, Britain and Canada signed what amounted to a secret treaty committing the USA to offensive action against the Axis no later than early 1942; that on 3 separate occasions in 1941, FDR told prominent British officials, including Churchill, that he intended to provoke the Axis powers into war; that the US government was secretly preparing to firebomb Japanese cities and that Japanese intel knew it; and that Roosevelt probably did have advance knowledge of the attack on Pearl Harbor.

    Also recommended is an older book, published in the early 1970s by Princeton University Press, titled ‘Victor’s Justice – The Tokyo War Crimes Trial’.

  202. L.K 说:

    Thanks Mr. Wear, for another great article!

  203. Xityl 说:
    @Colin Wright

    Oh, your poor gentleman sensibilities.
    Cheer up ol’ chap, let me pull out a good ol’ pocket handkerchief for you and chalk it up to good ol’ bad luck shall we?

  204. refl 说:
    @Colin Wright

    It should have been possible to take a walk in Bagdad unmolested by any such thing in the time of Saddam Hitler.

    And that American helicopter crew should have been in there own country, learning something useful.

    If yo invade a country that has done you no harm and do so for bogus reasons, then the most decent thing to expect from the natives is that they kill you with anything at hand.

    It would be interesting to know if the helicopter crew has become suicidal after terminating their service – not that I want them to, but it is a regular feature.

    • 回复: @Colin Wright
  205. Ron Unz 说:
    @L.K

    Prof. of Foreign Policy Robert Thompson’s book ‘A Time for War’ is one of a few good books that tear apart many of the myths.

    Actually, some years ago I came across another fascinating tidbit…

    For decades Classics Prof. Revilo Oliver was a very prominent figure in the American Far Right, and during World War II he’d apparently served in a fairly senior role in American Intelligence, or something like that.

    Near the beginning of his quasi-autobiography, 美国的衰落, he states that early in 1941 FDR informed the Portuguese Ambassador that the US was going to wait until Japan was over-extended, and then suddenly launch an all-out military attack, totally crushing the Japanese. He did so being sure that word would leak to the Japanese, which it did.

    Quite a number of things along these lines were intended to provoke the Japanese into exactly the attack that eventually occurred near the end of the year.

    Oliver claimed that he and most of his Military Intelligence friends in DC thought it likely that lots of the FDR people would be executed for treason after the end of the war…

  206. @L.K

    The Richard H. Minear book is in my personal library. A bravely honest tome.

  207. Rogue 说:
    @Che Guava

    Sorry, not the faintest clue what you’re on about.

    Please try to make more sense next time.

    谢谢。

    • 巨魔: Che Guava
    • 回复: @Che Guava
  208. @Ron Unz

    Thank you for mentioning the Revilo Oliver book, a name and work that hitherto had been unknown to me. Will seek it out posthaste.

  209. Che Guava 说:
    @Nicolás Palacios Navarro

    It is much more complex than that.

    We have beem heavily nccupied (by the U.S.A.) for over seventy years.

    They mainly stay on their bases now, hell why not, they must have tens of thousands of great soap-opera plots there now.

    The occupation govt. allowed the upper classes to retain war-time loot.

    Background roles in both the Korean and Vietnam wars were very profitable.

    From the mid-1980s to early 1990s, we were outreaching the occupying power in all kinds of tech.

    This marked the start of modern U.S. trade war tactics.

    Attack Japan’s leads in DRAM and operating systems, in particular.

    Sony had over-reached with its U.S media acquisitions, so it was swallowed by them, it is not really a Japanese company any more, although they wisely leave the video-game part under mainly Japanese management.

    We still have many strengths, but U.S. bullying prevented what could have been.

    What interests me now, is the U.S.A. attacks on Huawei. These stem from Huawei having become the main competitor to Cisco Systems, which had become the 事实上的 leader in network and telecomms systems since wiping out their Nordic competition, mainly but not only, Ericsonn.

    Now, the U.S.A. has raised the bar, aside from trying to ban other places frnm buying Huawei network gear and spuriously arresting a Huawei exec., now banning Huawei from using Android on their phones.

    It is so reminiscent of the trade wars on Japan, I will at the least be buying a Huawei tablet this year (sticking to tried and true Kyocera for my phone), just to piss them off.

    It is also, of course, different from the U.S. trade wars on Japan because China is not their occupied territory, it will be interesting to see how this round of trade bullying by the U.S.A. ends up.

  210. Rogue 说:
    @Nicolás Palacios Navarro

    My original comment was regarding the treatment of POW’s by the combatants in the Indian/Pacific theaters during WW2.

    Long before the USA was able to bomb the shit out of Japan (I agree, a war crime) the Japanese had shown barbarity and contempt for Allied prisoners of war.

    In contrast, the Allies did not treat Japanese POW’s anything like as badly.

    As for the Americans bombing Japan, wrong as it was, they did it because they could. The Japanese would have done the same, I’m pretty sure, to the USA if they were able.

    After all, according to the excellent book by Richard Rhodes about the A bomb project, the Japanese were themselves invested in just such a program, but of course were nowheresville by the time of Hiroshima.

    Please don’t kid me that the Japanese would not have used such weapons if in fact they had them – especially before anybody else – in their arsenal.

  211. Che Guava 说:
    @Rogue

    If you had two neurons to fire, you would easily understand. Be as obtuse as you like.

  212. @refl

    ‘…If yo invade a country that has done you no harm and do so for bogus reasons, then the most decent thing to expect from the natives is that they kill you with anything at hand…’

    Perhaps — but surely it’s unreasonable to demand that the targets cooperate?

    You’re effectively arguing that the helicopter pilot should have ignored a group of men approaching American troops when one of the men was carrying an RPG.

    • 回复: @refl
  213. S 说:
    @Jacques Sheete

    True and I think significant.

    I certainly tend to agree.

    It is significant that ‘the first national flag’ flying over the United States during the whole of 1776 is identical with the then current BEIC flag in the same way its significant that very same year also saw both the publication of Adam Smith’s ‘Capitalist bible’ 国富 as well as Gibbon’s first volume of his monumental 罗马帝国的衰落, the latter in a certain sense formally ushering out the ‘old’ Roman Empire while simultaneously the world heralds the birth of the ‘New Rome’, the United States.

    Taken together it all says something about the exact nature of the 1776 Revolution.

    A Sir Charles Fawcett wrote and published an extensive article (linked and quoted below) about the origins of the two flags in 1937:

    The present tendency in the United States is to treat the origin of the Grand Union Flag as a mystery, which is unlikely to be solved…’ but ultimately concludes that
    ‘..it seems clear that the two flags were identical’, and that there was little chance of this being simply coincidental.

    I would also note that the BEIC was a government subsidized monopoly with its own (bloody) private army but even at that was a money loser if I remember correctly.

    Blackwater would seem not to be the first into that sort of thing, the BEIC in India being a relatively early example within the Anglosphere of what could be termed ‘public-private partnership’.

    Of course going back much further, regarding what would be the future United States, one finds Jamestown in 1607 and the quazi public-private partnership that existed there between the British government and the Virginia Company of London.

    Interestingly, the first (and ultimately for many years after 1603 with little break) long serving governor of the BEIC first appointed in 1600, Sir Thomas Smythe, would also ‘In 1609,’ obtain ‘a royal charter for the London Virginia Company. He became the new colony’s treasurer and de facto non-resident governor [of Jamestown] until his resignation in 1620’.

    https://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/gb-eic2.html

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public–private_partnership

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Smythe

  214. @Rogue

    Long before the USA was able to bomb the shit out of Japan (I agree, a war crime) the Japanese had shown barbarity and contempt for Allied prisoners of war.

    “Barbarity”? Poor dears. What did the American military leaders expect when they forced a nation to fight an unjust war for its very survival? Especially after a century of antagonizing it? In light of that, the actions of the Japanese seem to me remarkably restrained.

    The Americans were no angels in their treatment of the Japanese, as my earlier Mencken quote implies. The main reason that the U. S. halted further mistreatment of Japanese military personnel was because it was becoming clear even mid-war that the Kuomintang were losing badly to the C. C. P. in China, and that a postwar democratic Japan would be a necessary anti-communist bulwark in East Asia. Therefore, a grudging charm offensive had begun. (Of course, the whole point of the Japan-China War was precisely to snuff out Chinese communism in the first place.)

    As for the Americans bombing Japan, wrong as it was, they did it because they could. The Japanese would have done the same, I’m pretty sure, to the USA if they were able.

    Except that the intent of the Japanese was never to invade or colonize the U. S.

    Pearl Harbor, ironically enough, was the product of Japanese 警告 against upsetting the U. S. too much. They incorrectly decided that attacking a colonial military outpost would serve to ward their adversaries against an expensive and bloody war. (Their original plans had been to invade and occupy Hawaii outright and they had even devised postwar plans for returning the territory to the Americans. These plans, which they could have accomplished, were rejected in order to prevent what ended up happening to them anyway.) The Japanese did not want to attack the U. S. homeland and were not interested in doing so. All they wanted was to make the Americans understand that East Asia was their concern and nobody else’s.

  215. @Che Guava

    We still have many strengths, but U.S. bullying prevented what could have been.

    The Plaza Accord comes to mind: Japan tanked its own economy to prop up the U. S. Then there is the 安坡, which has effectively made Japan into a permanent vassal state.

    • 回复: @Che Guava
  216. @Nicolás Palacios Navarro

    ‘…I have mentioned in other posts how postwar guilt results in bizarre subterfuges and euphemisms Japan in order to refer to their modern defensive armaments and military…’

    Well, the Japanese chronically engage in bizarre subterfuges and euphemisms. It’s the inevitable flip side of their culture of courtesy and consideration.

    I wouldn’t put it down to their losing the war. The language would presumably be just as…Japanese if they had won.

    Don’t get me wrong. Japan is at least close to my favorite country among the twenty nine I’ve visited. It’s just peachy. But what you gain on the curves you lose on the straightaways, as I’ve said in other connections. It all balances out. We don’t get to go to heaven until we die.

  217. Ron Unz 说:
    @Nicolás Palacios Navarro

    “Barbarity”? Poor dears. What did the American military leaders expect when they forced a nation to fight an unjust war for its very survival? Especially after a century of antagonizing it? In light of that, the actions of the Japanese seem to me remarkably restrained.

    Here’s another intriguing tidbit I discovered through my 2000s content-archiving project, that digitized the complete archives of hundreds of America’s leading periodicals of the last 150 years.

    In the early 1940s, one of the most popular mass-circulation magazines in America was 每周一次, which specialized in adventure fiction.

    The Sept. 27, 1941 cover-story was entitled “We Bomb Tokyo!” and explained how our powerful Pacific Fleet would attack and destroy Japan’s capital in retaliation for all Japanese misdeeds over the years:

    https://www.unz.com/print/ArgosyWeekly-1941sep27-00006/

    I’m sure the Japanese noticed it, probably with some alarm. And I’d strongly suspect that FDR and his people had helped “encourage” its publication, hoping it would further add to the pressure they were putting on Japan to force it into a war.

  218. S 说:
    @Jacques Sheete

    True and I think significant. I’ve never seen anyone other than myself post a comment like that and I’ve never had a response of any kind and I find that perplexing.

    I’ve pondered much the same thing and concluded that, in addition to there being a simple dirth of available information in some instances, that self deception plays a massive role, besides there being certain things which are unpleasant for people (myself included) to think about.

    Freemasonry, an organization which I find overall to have certain dubious and questionable aspects, might be an example. Needless to say in the US and UK, a great many powerful (or otherwise) people have been FM’s historically, or, if not a member themselves, had a close relative or friend who was. I’m in that position myself regarding some relative(s).

    All too many jump to the unwarranted conclusion/presumption that since Uncle Jack or their friend Joe is ‘a good guy’, which may well indeed be the case with that individual, and a Freemason, that ipso facto the whole of Freemasonry must be a very good and positive thing.

    They don’t even get to the point of questioning or investigating it as, after all, ‘he’s a good guy.’ Of course, to be sure, there are those who don’t help things when they over obsess on the subject.

    It’s a truism that honesty with one’s self (as well as others) is indeed the best policy.

    Being that the world seems to be on the cusp of WWIII where billions may well die that should probably now read a 残酷 honesty is the best policy.

  219. @Nicolás Palacios Navarro

    ‘“Barbarity”? Poor dears. What did the American military leaders expect when they forced a nation to fight an unjust war for its very survival?’

    Oh please. Being allowed to carve out your very own empire in China without even trade sanctions is not synonymous with ‘survival.’

    Nor is it reasonable to expect that your opponent will tie up his prisoners and (literally) feed them alive to sharks.

  220. @Colin Wright

    Oh please. Being allowed to carve out your very own empire in China without even trade sanctions is not synonymous with ‘survival.’

    Yet that is what the U. S. precisely did, yet your average American hardly cares, that is if they are even aware of their national history.

    Nor is it reasonable to expect that your opponent will tie up his prisoners and (literally) feed them alive to sharks.

    What an enthralling fairy story. Now tell me the one about how the Japanese bayoneted babies alive. Perhaps you are also fond of the tales of rabid Iraqi soldiers tearing newborns out of incubators?

    • 回复: @L.K
    , @Colin Wright
  221. L.K 说:
    @Colin Wright

    ‘After “forty months of war duty and five major battles” in which Edgar L. Jones served as “an ambulance driver, a merchant seaman, an Army historian, and a war correspondent,” he wrote an article dispelling some myths about the Americans’ role in the war’:

    “无论如何,平民认为我们打了什么样的战争?”他告诉大西洋月刊的读者。 “我们冷酷地射杀囚犯,摧毁医院,扫射救生艇,杀死或虐待敌方平民,杀死敌人的伤员,将死者和死者一起扔进洞里,在太平洋把敌人头骨上的肉煮成餐桌装饰品给情侣,或者把他们的骨头雕刻成开信刀。=

    Edgar L. Jones,“一场战争就足够了”,大西洋,1946 年 XNUMX 月。( http://tmh.floonet.net/articles/nonatlserv.shtml )。 也引自 P. Fussell,感谢上帝赐予原子弹和其他论文(纽约:1988 年),第 50-51 页。

  222. L.K 说:
    @Nicolás Palacios Navarro

    As I said to friend J.S in another thread:

    In regards to WW2( and WW1) double standards & outright LIES and fabrications are the norm.
    For example, we endlessly hear of alleged German or Japanese crimes and atrocities, a lot of it lies or exaggerations.
    Just imagine the following photo but in a Japanese magazine instead, featuring a pretty Japanese girl looking at the skull of a dead US marine. Something like: “Tokyo war worker writes her IJA boyfriend a thank-you note for the US marine skull he sent her.”… or replace that with a young German woman receiving a Red Army soldier skull from her boyfriend… you get the picture.
    * “Arizona war worker writes her Navy boyfriend a thank-you note for the Jap skull he sent her.” LIFE magazine’s “Picture of the Week,” May 22, 1944.

    • 回复: @refl
  223. @Nicolás Palacios Navarro

    ‘…What an enthralling fairy story. Now tell me the one about how the Japanese bayoneted babies alive. Perhaps you are also fond of the tales of rabid Iraqi soldiers tearing newborns out of incubators?’

    The logic here is that since one man was wrongly convicted, all men were wrongly convicted.

  224. @L.K

    Their implications of these things is that inhumane treatment is perfectly acceptable for the Japanese to endure. But heavens forfend that the Nihonjin ever return the favor. Especially later on as their families back home were being melted alive.

    What Japan did between 1867 – 1945 and how it accomplished it was no better or worse than the U. S.’ own land grab. But as ever with America’s hypocritical moralism, it is “do as we say, not as we do.”

    • 同意: L.K
    • 回复: @Che Guava
  225. Rogue 说:
    @Nicolás Palacios Navarro

    So you simply dismiss the brutal treatment of allied POW’s by the Japanese.

    伟大的论据。

    In combat situations or near post-combat situations, lots of bad stuff can and does happen in war. And all sides are guilty of it. Soldiers trying to surrender or being killed even after surrendering, or helpless in the water or whatever else are, unfortunately, often at the not so tender mercies of their foes. This behavior is I’m sure common to all sides in a war.

    However, when the dust has well and truly settled there can be no excuse for treating POW’s, weeks, months and years later in that same fashion.

    Are you trying to suggest the Americans, Brits or Aussies were, in that regard, no better than the Japanese? Get real.

    Of course, as we know, the Chinese and Koreans just love them Japanese. But I guess they’re just being irrational …

    The problem with a lot of revisionist history is that it takes an unlikely good guys/bad guys traditional set of beliefs – and then completely inverts them into the same unlikely heroes and villains image.

    So the accepted or establishment narrative about WW2 that Britain and America good/Germany and Japan bad becomes exactly the opposite in the same black and white fashion for so many revisionists.

    I doubt the truth is exactly half-way between these two extremes, but it’s certainly not going to be one of the extremes either.

  226. Robjil 说:
    @Nicolás Palacios Navarro

    Here are some clues that the nuke makers were anti-Christian.

    https://consortiumnews.com/2015/08/09/christianity-and-the-nagasaki-crime/

    Nagasaki was the most Christian city in Japan. The massive Urakami Cathedral was the focus point of the nuke over Nagasaki.

    “In a cruel irony, prior to the bomb exploding nearly directly over the Urakami Cathedral at 11:02 a.m., Nagasaki was the most Christian city in Japan. The massive cathedral was the largest Christian church in the Orient.
    The Christian U.S. airmen, following their wartime orders to the letter, did their job efficiently. They accomplished the mission with military pride, albeit with an astonishing number of near-fatal glitches along the way.”

    The first test of the atomic bomb was blasphemously labeled “Trinity”.

    “The first and only field test of an atomic bomb had been blasphemously code-named “Trinity” (a distinctly Christian term). That experiment had occurred in secrecy three weeks earlier at Alamogordo, New Mexico, on July 16, 1945. The results were impressively destructive, but the blast had just killed a few hapless coyotes, rabbits, snakes and some other desert varmints. That plutonium bomb at Alamogordo had been identical to the Nagasaki bomb. ”

    This first nuke named Trinity created a new type of rock in New Mexico.

    “Trinity also produced huge amounts of an entirely new type of rock that was later called “Trinitite,” a radioactive molten lava rock that had been created from an intense heat that was twice the temperature of the sun.

    The anti-Christian US nuke did more work of de-Christianizing Japan than all previous Japanese governments with that one nuke that night in 1945.

    “And here is one of the most cruelly ironic points: What the Japanese Imperial government could not do in 250 years of persecution (i.e., to destroy Japanese Christianity) American Christians did in mere seconds.
    Even after a slow revival of Christianity since World War II, membership in Japanese churches still represents a small fraction of 1 percent of the general population, and the average attendance at Christian worship services across the nation is reported to be only 30 per Sunday. Surely the decimation of Nagasaki at the end of the war crippled what at one time was a vibrant church.”

    • 回复: @utu
  227. refl 说:
    @Colin Wright

    I am arguing that they shouldn’t have been there in the first place, and that they were offered a job to shoot brown people by International Bankster Scum Inc., or what ever the name was.

    Not that they would mind to shoot white people just as well, like those gunners themselves who commit suicide, and who probably did not even have the chance to find a more decent source of income.

    In a way I admire your steadfastness not to realize the galaxy sized fuck up we are all in.

    • 回复: @Colin Wright
  228. refl 说:
    @Jacques Sheete

    ‘the first national flag’ flying over the United States during the whole of 1776 is identical with the then current BEIC flag

    That, and not even World War revisionism would be my exhibit A for the gigantic memory whole of what is called History.

    When I first found this I showed it to my old man, who was an English teacher and a History teacher for more then thirty years (and for him, that included lots unnerving details of early modernity) – and he had no idea.

    Just as much anyone at school learns to feel a cold shiver when he hears about bolshevik Volkskommisar, but unwittingly swallows the same title without a complain when applied to EU-Kommissar on the evening news.

  229. refl 说:
    @Che Guava

    From the mid-1980s to early 1990s, we were outreaching the occupying power in all kinds of tech.

    This marked the start of modern U.S. trade war tactics.

    It would be interesting to know more about this, because anyone by now can see the grand scheme to mess up Europe post-cold war:
    Everyone here took the Euro as a great project of peace, even seing from the start it could never work. And then they brought the whole thing down, burdening the continent with debt, taken up by bankers who dreamed about playing it huge, American style. From VW to Bayer/Monsanto this is all the work of Business people so incompetent, it cannot be for real. The ‘refugee crisis’ is a deadly soap opera so moronic you cannot make it up. Brexit, the longer it goes, the more it appears to be made up.

    The whole rise of the Alt Right in Europe will end up delivering government to Zionist puppets.

    This theme is worth several month of WWIII Prawda threads.

  230. EugeneGur 说:
    @Nicolás Palacios Navarro

    Even when the Japanese did bomb cities like Shanghai and Nanking, their intention was not extermination of the civilian population or the utter destruction of their cities.

    They did destruct them. The Nanking massacre – rings a bell? It happened after the Japanese had taken the city and was directed against the civilian population. An untold number of Chinese civilians was murdered by the Japanese military. I don’t believe these victims cared one way or another whether there was an intention to exterminate them, and neither should we.

    Nor was there any genocidal intent among Japanese military and political leaders.

    Well, perhaps not. Or, perhaps, they were just less outspoken than the Americans, which is more likely. Nevertheless, the Japanese did practice what amounts to genocide in China and other places they occupied. You see, there is no need to have an intent – practice is sufficient.

    As somebody who has lived in Japan, has researched and lectured upon topics related to the Pacific War, and has spent much time at the National Diet Library looking through artifacts and documents from the immediate prewar and wartime eras,

    I understand it’s hard to believe in today’s Japan while interacting with the Japanese people, who are indeed very nice, or visiting museums in Hiroshima and Nagasaki. However, what happened happened, and there is no point denying it.

    If you spend time in forums like this one, you’ll get an impression that the Germans were the nicest people that ever lived wrongly accused and mistreated, mostly by evil Russians. However, if you go to Russia and visit all the cemeteries all over the country, see all the towns destroyed and villages burned and hear the stories, you, perhaps, would come away with a different impression – if you are honest, that is.

    Same here – go to China, Korea or Malaysia and hear what they have to say about the nice Japanese.

    • 回复: @Colin Wright
    , @refl
  231. @refl

    ‘I am arguing that they shouldn’t have been there in the first place, and that they were offered a job to shoot brown people by International Bankster Scum Inc., or what ever the name was…’

    My point is merely that that is a distinct issue from whether they saw that one of that group of men was carrying an RPG. The victims weren’t innocent civilians out for a stroll. They were combatants, and it was a war.

  232. @EugeneGur

    ‘…They did destruct them. The Nanking massacre – rings a bell? It happened after the Japanese had taken the city and was directed against the civilian population. An untold number of Chinese civilians was murdered by the Japanese military. I don’t believe these victims cared one way or another whether there was an intention to exterminate them, and neither should we…’

    I think this is a very important point. A lot of the justification for the Holocaust cult revolves around the assumption that it is somehow vastly more horrible if one is exterminating someone for one reason rather than another.

    Actually, it’s entirely secondary to the victims. If you lock me up and allow me to starve to death, it’ll swiftly become immaterial to me whether you’re doing it because you want to exterminate all left-handers, or are doing it merely because you want to keep all the Pringles for yourself. The effect on me is identical in either case.

  233. utu 说:
    @Robjil

    The Christians of Nagasaki were Catholics.

    I have heard some speculation that the bombing of the Benedictine monastery on Monte Cassino that lead to long siege as Germans apparently initially were no planning to defend it also could have had specifically anti-Catholic undertone. In the monastery St. Thomas of Aquinas began his career and there were rumors that the Shroud of Turin was hidden there for the duration of war.

    • 回复: @Robjil
  234. They did destruct them. The Nanking massacre – rings a bell? It happened after the Japanese had taken the city and was directed against the civilian population. An untold number of Chinese civilians was murdered by the Japanese military. I don’t believe these victims cared one way or another whether there was an intention to exterminate them, and neither should we.

    Again, I find it amusing that the same people who question or deny the possibility that the Germans incinerated something like 9 million altogether (Jews, gypsies, Slavs, and so on) in the concentration camps unhesitatingly believe that the Japanese could somehow kill 300,000 people—without ovens and gas chambers—in a matter of weeks.

    Well, perhaps not. Or, perhaps, they were just less outspoken than the Americans, which is more likely.

    Do you read Japanese? Have you ever looked through archival documents from that era? I do and have. They were not “outspoken” simply because they were not intent on genociding anyone.

    Nevertheless, the Japanese did practice what amounts to genocide in China and other places they occupied. You see, there is no need to have an intent – practice is sufficient.

    And this is according to—what? Postwar C. C. P. propaganda? Let’s take a look at the Nanking incident you mentioned earlier, for example. Prewar census records from the Kuomintang themselves stated that Nanking had a population of no more than 60,000. Their own records of the invasion of the city compiled shortly after it occurred put forward a death toll ranging from 11,000 – 24,000, I believe, and did not differentiate between military and civilian casualties. It was only after the war, when it proved to be politically convenient for Japan’s former adversaries, that Japan suddenly had killed “300,000” civilians, that its soldiers had bayoneted babies and pregnant women, and so on. Tall tales and exaggerations, just like the ones that grew around the Germans. But, of course, since they were 我们的 enemy, and since there were no Pattons weeping over their destruction, the black legend cannot ever be questioned.

    I understand it’s hard to believe in today’s Japan while interacting with the Japanese people, who are indeed very nice, or visiting museums in Hiroshima and Nagasaki. However, what happened happened, and there is no point denying it.

    They have always been very nice. Just as most peoples are. Or do you really believe that between, say, 1925 – 1945 the Japanese truly woke up every morning thinking, “I wonder what evil we as a nation can wreak today?” And I am not denying anything. My point is that Japan is no less a victim of exaggeration and hypocritical moralism than the Germans.

    If you spend time in forums like this one, you’ll get an impression that the Germans were the nicest people that ever lived wrongly accused and mistreated, mostly by evil Russians. However, if you go to Russia and visit all the cemeteries all over the country, see all the towns destroyed and villages burned and hear the stories, you, perhaps, would come away with a different impression – if you are honest, that is.

    I have visited Russia. Of course, these same people who recite the litany of evils visited upon them by the Germans are shy to go on much about how the Soviets did an even better job of exterminating Russians and Slavs. Go figure.

    Same here – go to China, Korea or Malaysia and hear what they have to say about the nice Japanese.

    China and Malaysia—with its large Chinese population—have their own reasons to exaggerate the historical record. Korea is an interesting case. Today they act as if they were the first victims of Japanese aggression when, in fact, many Koreans not only welcomed annexation, but worked very cozily with the Japanese afterwards. Not for nothing are they still referred to as “second devils” (二鬼子) in Chinese-speaking countries. Documents which I have examined from the former Ministry of Colonial Affairs (Takumushō 拓務省) testify over and over again to the patriotic and pro-Japanese fervor of Koreans, especially among the rural and working classes. These Japanese officials were often dismayed that Koreans demonstrated more enthusiasm for Japan’s imperial projects than did actual Japanese residents in Chōsen (Korea).

    • 回复: @refl
    , @EugeneGur
  235. Robjil 说:
    @utu

    There was a lot strange games planned by the schemers who planned WWII and it continues to our day.

    D-day was on the 6th month, the 6th day and the 6th hour. It was practice with the magic number 6 that has tormented us for decades. After war, a D-day 6 like attack came down on all us with the endlessly big H 6 deluge of propaganda without any end in sight. If one wants to end this propaganda, it is jail time in Europe.

    https://www.dday.org/june-6-1944/

    [更多]

    “Besides the large airborne operation, the actual landings on the beaches were also to be preceded by a massive naval bombardment of the German coastal defenses. The largest naval bombardment ever seen at the time was to begin at 5:50 A.M. on D-Day. Though the navy wanted the bombardment to last for two hours, the army’s desire to limit the amount of time the Germans had to reinforce the beach positions restricted the bombardment to forty minutes. “

    Notice 6th month, 6th year and 6th hour for the invasion. 666. The ZUS was the ZUS back then like it is today. 10 to 6am, bombing 40 minutes to end in the middle of the 6th hour – 6:30 am.

    The Pentagon’s construction started on 9/11/41. On its 60th anniversary the ZUS celebrated its 60th birthday by attacking it.

    60 years to celebrate, another 6 to add to the big H 6.

    https://wanttoknowit.com/who-designed-and-built-the-pentagon/

    “Construction started on September 11, 1941, and was completed on January 15, 1943. The total cost of the building was $83 million.”

    Gee, it took only 6 days to design the Pentagon. 6 is a loved number by the crazies ruling us. Notice the date on that it started construction. 9/11/41.

    9/11 is a Kabbala thing.

    https://www.sacred-texts.com/jud/yetzirah.htm

    “4。 十是不可言喻的萨菲罗斯的数字,十而不是九,十而不是十一。 学习这种智慧,并明智地理解它,研究这些数字,从中汲取知识,将设计固定在其纯洁中,然后将其传递给坐在他宝座上的创造者。”

    Another 6 wonder, the Pentagon was designed in only 6 days. Wonder of wonders?

    https://wanttoknowit.com/who-designed-and-built-the-pentagon/

    “The Pentagon was designed by George Bergstrom, an American architect from Los Angeles, and his partner David J. Witmer. They were able to complete the preliminary designs in just 6 days! “

    Dresden was bombed on Feb. 13-15, 1944. It was a sad destruction of world history and human lives. Monte Cassino happened at the same exact time. It was on Feb. 15 1944. It was another sad destruction of world history and human lives, thought on a smaller scale compared to Dresden.

    https://www.editorpress.it/en/monte-cassino-abbey-destruction

    “On 15 February 1944, the Benedictine monastery of Monte Cassino was bombed by the allies, and completely destroyed. Between 9, 28, 13,33 and 15 February, 239 bombers, medium and heavy, dropped 453 tons of bombs and a half. Eight planes waves that pulverized the ancient Abbey of Montecassino.”

    The number 6 appears to come out of nowhere in Monte Cassino after its destruction.

    https://civilianmilitaryintelligencegroup.com/8868/bombing-monte-cassino-in-the-italian-campaign

    “The Abbey was built in AD 524 with 15 feet high ceilings and walls ten feet thick. It was built as the center of Benedictine power on top of a mountain range and overlooking a road known today as Highway 6. Who knows how many names this road held before the twentieth century?”

    Why Highway 6? Another 6 to add for the big 6 H propaganda for the last seventy something years.

    Here is what the world lost at Monte Cassino.

    “…the town of Cassino, I might add, another absolutely gorgeous town with Gothic Italian architecture and old libraries and records that are now just the detritus of war; They carpet bombed Cassino for four hours and followed it with 125,000 artillery shells. When the shooting was over and the Allies rushed in at the end of their bombing runs they discovered how quickly the Germans could reconstitute stout defenses. ”

    • 回复: @AB_Anonymous
    , @utu
  236. refl 说:
    @EugeneGur

    If you spend time in forums like this one, you’ll get an impression that the Germans were the nicest people that ever lived wrongly accused and mistreated, mostly by evil Russians.

    Now, please: This article is about the British and American bombing of German city and a cultural treasure of Europe. The author could, of cause, fill in a quote by Stalin, who oposed strategic bombing, to make a distinction.
    In fact, in bombing the people, but not the factories, the Angloamericans reached the astonishing goal of reducing Germany to rubble, but to maintain its capacity for warfare – now, whom did that possibly not really help?

    Regarding the Far East, Japan had invested in Manchuria and depended on it economically. It had come there at the explicit invitation of the British Empire, which somehow had the divine right to hand out concessions there. Incidentally, there was a rival power nearby, whom the Empire wanted to contain, finally having it engaged in a war that said rival power lost due to British help to Japan.

    This conflict brought said rival power nearly to its knees and gave it the inclination to engage in South Eastern Europe rather than in the Far East. A half promis, never to be fulfilled, to hand Constantinople to that rival power made the deal sweeter. Said engagement led this rival power into a conflict it did not really need some ten years later. What followed was revolution and the partial take over of the government by returned emigrants whose idea was to use that power in their own quest for world domination. The rival power recovered and had to be engaged again.

    The story that you know always will be partial and it will be a story that serves the powers to be. Regarding WW II the interest is crystal clear – to show, that the other side, the loser, was as sick and evil as could be, beyond anything human. Further, it has to be shown that the losing side and only them was responsible for every bit of the disaster and that there never was any way of finding any conciliatory ending.

    Now, regarding the German-Russian war, this might be as close to the truth as anything, but that should not hinder you from looking a little bit further, whom you are up against.
    Just imagine that Russia were torn to pieces in the present conflict, which I certainly do not want, but just suppose – what do you think will be in your own school books in fifty years about our time?

    Regarding Germany, I have always accepted the common storyline and I would have prefered things to stay the way they were. What I did not expect – and there you can really call me naiv – is that the whole disaster is an ongoing affair. This demands me to take a closer look at why things happened the way they did.

    • 回复: @EugeneGur
  237. refl 说:
    @Nicolás Palacios Navarro

    Thanks for the great Info about Nanking.

  238. refl 说:
    @L.K

    This bit of information should be saved, as it puts the whole lampshade/soap story into a really revealing context.

  239. @Rogue

    So you simply dismiss the brutal treatment of allied POW’s by the Japanese.

    No. I just refuse to impose an anachronistic and hypocritical moralistic framework upon them. We showed no mercy to them—until it became politically convenient to do so. Why should they have done so to us, especially when they took pains to not instigate the U. S. and were threatened with genocide anyway?

    In combat situations or near post-combat situations, lots of bad stuff can and does happen in war. And all sides are guilty of it. Soldiers trying to surrender or being killed even after surrendering, or helpless in the water or whatever else are, unfortunately, often at the not so tender mercies of their foes. This behavior is I’m sure common to all sides in a war.

    However, when the dust has well and truly settled there can be no excuse for treating POW’s, weeks, months and years later in that same fashion.

    So if there is no excuse, then when will the U. S. be taken to task for its actions against the Japanese? And I do not mean simply bringing these actions to global attention, but using them as instruments to cripple our foreign and even domestic policies as Japan has been forced to? Will you be the first to allow your war guilt to outsource the bulk of your national defense? Because the Japanese have certainly done that. Oh, wait—the Japanese were exceptionally brutal to Americans. Not like the Americans ever were to the Japanese, or Filipinos (who saw 1/5 of their population decimated in the Philippine-American War), or to Central America, or to the Native Americans, or to the Iraquis, etc., etc.

    Are you trying to suggest the Americans, Brits or Aussies were, in that regard, no better than the Japanese? Get real.

    Again, old myths die hard, especially in a country which has not been able to bring forth new ones to continue sustaining the narrative of its national mythos.

    Of course, as we know, the Chinese and Koreans just love them Japanese. But I guess they’re just being irrational…

    Right. It is not like the Chinese had been burning with resentment against a rival that they had formerly treated as barbarians suddenly emerging as the center of power in East Asia, thereby casting China off into the political periphery for the first time in centuries. Nor have the Koreans been nursing a deep rivalry against the Japanese, which has been demonstrated in documents going back to at least the 9th century, well before Japan’s Meiji era rise. Nor would they officially deny and obfuscate their own complicity in the Empire of Japan’s actions. No, that would be impossible, right?

    The problem with a lot of revisionist history is that it takes an unlikely good guys/bad guys traditional set of beliefs – and then completely inverts them into the same unlikely heroes and villains image.

    Your first mistake is to think in terms of “good/bad guys” at all.

    • 同意: L.K
    • 回复: @Rogue
  240. EugeneGur 说:
    @Nicolás Palacios Navarro

    these same people who recite the litany of evils visited upon them by the Germans are shy to go on much about how the Soviets did an even better job of exterminating Russians and Slavs.

    If you mean the repressions, we aren’t at all shy: these events are being studies, the numbers verified, the personal list of people subjected to repressions is being compiled. We have built memorials to people that perished in Moscow and other places. We just don’t understand the logic of your argument, as I believe no one could, for there is no logic.

    Even assuming what you said was true (the part that the Soviet did even a better job), which it isn’t by far, how does that excuse or in any way justify what the Germans did? Or, more, negate the very fact that they did all this? Some person is a killer, then it’s OK for you to be one as well, or you cease to be a killer because someone else is, is that what you are trying to say?

    My point is that Japan is no less a victim of exaggeration and hypocritical moralism than the Germans.

    The Germans are definitely not the victims of anything, except, perhaps, their own stupidity and arrogance. Strongly suspect that Japanese aren’t either.

    who question or deny the possibility that the Germans incinerated something like 9 million altogether (Jews, gypsies, Slavs, and so on) in the concentration camps unhesitatingly believe that the Japanese could somehow kill 300,000 people

    That doesn’t apply to me. I won’t argue with you about the exact numbers, for I am not in the position to do so. 11,000-24,000 in a city of 60,000 sound quite enough for me to classify it as a massacre.

    I do believe, and have every reason to do so, that the Germans exterminated a considerable number of people in their concentration camps, but whether it was 6 or 9 millions, I am not prepared to say. Our people have estimated that about 3 million Soviet POW were exterminated in such camps, and about 2 million more died when doing slave labor in Germany and Austria. I have no reason to doubt this account and find this horrendous enough without the need to inflate the numbers.

    patriotic and pro-Japanese fervor of Koreans, especially among the rural and working classes.

    Most evident, I am sure, among “comfort women”, who still cannot make Japan to admit their very existence let alone offer compensation.

  241. @EugeneGur

    I would answer your last post point by point, but your closing belch leaves me certain that your brain’s thick encasement of ignorance would render my efforts pointless:

    Most evident, I am sure, among “comfort women”, who still cannot make Japan to admit their very existence let alone offer compensation.

    实际上…

    https://www.bbc.com/news//world-asia-35188135

    Japan and South Korea have agreed to settle the issue of “comfort women” forced to work in Japanese brothels during World War Two, in their first such deal since 1965.

    Japan has apologised and will pay 1bn yen ($8.3m, £5.6m) – the amount South Korea asked for – to fund victims.

    Not only that, but…

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_war_apology_statements_issued_by_Japan

    August 26, 1982: Chief Cabinet Secretary Kiichi Miyazawa said to the people of the Republic of Korea: “1. The Japanese Government and the Japanese people are deeply aware of the fact that acts by our country in the past caused tremendous suffering and damage to the peoples of Asian countries, including the Republic of Korea (ROK) and China, and have followed the path of a pacifist state with remorse and determination that such acts must never be repeated. Japan has recognized, in the Japan-ROK Joint Communique, of 1965, that the ‘past relations are regrettable, and Japan feels deep remorse,’ and in the Japan-China Joint Communique, that Japan is ‘keenly conscious of the responsibility for the serious damage that Japan caused in the past to the Chinese people through war and deeply reproaches itself.’ These statements confirm Japan’s remorse and determination which I stated above and this recognition has not changed at all to this day. 2. This spirit in the Japan-ROK Joint Communique, and the Japan-China Joint Communique, naturally should also be respected in Japan’s school education and textbook authorization.

    September 6, 1984: Emperor Hirohito said to President Chun Doo Hwan: “It is indeed regrettable that there was an unfortunate past between us for a period in this century and I believe that it should not be repeated again.” (Meeting with President Chun Doo Hwan.)

    May 24, 1990: Emperor Akihito, in a meeting with President Roh Tae Woo, said: “Reflecting upon the suffering that your people underwent during this unfortunate period, which was brought about by our nation, I cannot but feel the deepest remorse” (Meeting with President Roh Tae Woo).

    January 1, 1992: Prime Minister Kiichi Miyazawa, in a press conference, said: “Concerning the comfort women, I apologize from the bottom of my heart and feel remorse for those people who suffered indescribable hardships”.

    January 16, 1992: Prime Minister Kiichi Miyazawa, in a speech at dinner with President Roh Tae Woo, said: “We the Japanese people, first and foremost, have to bear in our mind the fact that your people experienced unbearable suffering and sorrow during a certain period in the past because of our nation’s act, and never forget the feeling of remorse. I, as a prime minister, would like to once again express a heartfelt remorse and apology to the people of your nation”.

    January 17, 1992: Prime Minister Kiichi Miyazawa, at a policy speech on a visit to South Korea, said:. “What we should not forget about relationship between our nation and your nation is a fact that there was a certain period in the thousands of years of our company when we were the victimizer and you were the victim. I would like to once again express a heartfelt remorse and apology for the unbearable suffering and sorrow that you experienced during this period because of our nation’s act.” Recently the issue of the so-called ‘wartime comfort women’ is being brought up. I think that incidents like this are seriously heartbreaking, and I am truly sorry”.

    July 6, 1992. Chief Cabinet Secretary Koichi Kato said: “The Government again would like to express its sincere apology and remorse to all those who have suffered indescribable hardship as so-called ‘wartime comfort women,’ irrespective of their nationality or place of birth. With profound remorse and determination that such a mistake must never be repeated, Japan will maintain its stance as a pacifist nation and will endeavor to build up new future-oriented relations with the Republic of Korea and with other countries and regions in Asia. As I listen to many people, I feel truly grieved for this issue. By listening to the opinions of people from various directions, I would like to consider sincerely in what way we can express our feelings to those who suffered such hardship” (Statement by Chief Cabinet Secretary Koichi Kato on the Issue of the so-called “Wartime Comfort Women” from the Korean Peninsula).

    August 4, 1993: Chief Cabinet Secretary Yōhei Kōno said: “Undeniably, this was an act, with the involvement of the military authorities of the day, that severely injured the honor and dignity of many women. The Government of Japan would like to take this opportunity once again to extend its sincere apologies and remorse to all those, irrespective of place of origin, who suffered immeasurable pain and incurable physical and psychological wounds as comfort women” (Statement by the Chief Cabinet Secretary Yohei Kono on the result of the study on the issue of “comfort women”)

    August 31, 1994: Prime Minister Tomiichi Murayama said in a speech: “Japan’s actions in a certain period of the past not only claimed numerous victims here in Japan but also left the peoples of neighboring Asia and elsewhere with scars that are painful even today. I am thus taking this opportunity to state my belief, based on my profound remorse for these acts of aggression, colonial rule, and the like caused such unbearable suffering and sorrow for so many people, that Japan’s future path should be one of making every effort to build world peace in line with my no-war commitment. It is imperative for us Japanese to look squarely to our history with the peoples of neighboring Asia and elsewhere. Only with solid basis of mutual understanding and confidence that can be built through overcoming the pain on both sides, can we and the peoples of neighboring countries together clear up the future of Asia-Pacific…. On the issue of wartime ‘comfort women,’ which seriously stained the honor and dignity of many women, I would like to take this opportunity once again to express my profound and sincere remorse and apologies. With regard to this issue as well, I believe that one way of demonstrating such feelings of apologies and remorse is to work to further promote mutual understanding with the countries and areas concerned as well as to face squarely to the past and ensure that it is rightly conveyed to future generations. This initiative, in this sense, has been drawn up consistent with such belief” (Statement by Prime Minister Tomiichi Murayama on the “Peace, Friendship, and Exchange Initiative”)

    July 1995: Prime Minister Tomiichi Murayama said in a statement: “The problem of the so-called wartime comfort women is one such scar, which, with the involvement of the Japanese military forces of the time, seriously stained the honor and dignity of many women. This is entirely inexcusable. I offer my profound apology to all those who, as wartime comfort women, suffered emotional and physical wounds that can never be closed” (Statement by Prime Minister Tomiichi Murayama on the occasion of the establishment of the “Asian Women’s Fund”)

    December 28, 2015: Japanese Foreign Minister Fumio Kishida and South Korean Foreign Minister Yun Byung-se made an announcement at a joint press conference, which consisted of their respective statements on behalf of Japan and South Korea. Kishida stated, “The issue of comfort women, with an involvement of the Japanese military authorities at that time, was a grave affront to the honor and dignity of large numbers of women, and the Government of Japan is painfully aware of responsibilities from this perspective. As Prime Minister of Japan, Prime Minister Abe expresses anew his most sincere apologies and remorse to all the women who underwent immeasurable and painful experiences and suffered incurable physical and psychological wounds as comfort women.” The statement went on to explain that “the Government of Japan will now take measures to heal psychological wounds of all former comfort women through its budget” and that it had been decided that the South Korean government would “establish a foundation for the purpose of providing support for the former comfort women”. In return, Yun stated that his government “acknowledges the fact that the Government of Japan is concerned about the statue built in front of the Embassy of Japan in Seoul from the viewpoint of preventing any disturbance of the peace of the mission or impairment of its dignity, and will strive to solve this issue in an appropriate manner”. Both stated that this agreement will “finally and irreversibly” resolve the contentious issue and that “on the premise that the Government of Japan will steadily implement the measures it announced”, both countries “will refrain from accusing or criticizing each other regarding this issue in the international community, including at the United Nations”.

    But as it turned out, the Koreans trashed this “final and irreversible” agreement last year in order to rally the current regime’s base. What a surprise.

    And, once again, Koreans themselves were complicit in the “comfort woman” issue. Before you claim that I am offering you Japanese propaganda, the researchers who uncovered this detail are, in fact, Korean.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Park_Yu-ha
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diary_of_a_Japanese_Military_Brothel_Manager

    Of course, you also conveniently forget that it was the Japanese (Asahi Shimbun) who publicized and brought wider knowledge of the “comfort woman” issue in the first place.

    It is funny how even the blinding light of fact can have trouble dispelling the mists of myth and fantasy.

    • 回复: @L.K
    , @EugeneGur
  242. Rogue 说:
    @Nicolás Palacios Navarro

    Your first mistake is to think in terms of “good/bad guys” at all.

    Except I don’t. And haven’t done for several years now.

    On the contrary, I was trying to make it clear that such convenient labels are 不能 realistic, no matter which “side” you’re on. So I don’t think you understood me.

    As far as the POW’s issue is concerned, I’m arguing about the Second World War. Not extending the argument to every conflict in history.

    Simple fact: the Japanese were uneccesarily brutal and sadistic to all their POW’s during that conflict. By contrast, the Western Allies did 不能 treat their Japanese captives in the same way.

    Again, I’m not referring to the immediate post-combat situations where conventions are often ignored, but 长期 wartime incarceration.

    In that respect, there is no comparison between the treatment of POW’s by the warring sides in the various theaters where the Japanese fought during WW2, at least as far as the Westerners are concerned.

    I should maybe also point out that I’m neither American, British or Australian. So I’m not arguing from a nationalist or “patriotic” point of view at all.

  243. L.K 说:
    @Nicolás Palacios Navarro

    Navarro to eugeneGur

    Again, I find it amusing that the same people who question or deny the possibility that the Germans incinerated something like 9 million altogether (Jews, gypsies, Slavs, and so on) in the concentration camps

    Eugene questions nothing, he is a “team USSR” true believer who buys into all of the WW2 propaganda, probably with a Soviet flavor.

    I’m glad you discussed the so called “Nanking massacre”. Several years ago, I began looking into it more skeptically and became convinced the often told narrative, say, Iris Chang style, is largely fraudulent.

    Navarro to eugeneGur

    I would answer your last post point by point, but your closing belch leaves me certain that your brain’s thick encasement of ignorance would render my efforts pointless

    You got that right, but you could do it for the rest of us.

    问候

  244. EugeneGur 说:
    @refl

    Now, please: This article is about the British and American bombing of German city and a cultural treasure of Europe.

    I wasn’t referring to this particular thread but to the entire forum. This is not the only or the first article here about how innocent and/or victimized Germany was in the whole affair.

    As to the bombings, I have divided feeling about them. First, the Germans bombed enough of our civilians to merit some kind of retribution. In case you don’t know, they started the war with the USSR by massive bombings of our sleeping cities at 4 am and proceeded in the same vain. Furthermore, these bombings undoubtedly helped our troops by ruining the German moral and the will to fight. Although the Russians didn’t do that – the Brits/Americans did.

    On the other hand, precisely because our people experienced firsthand the results of such bombing, I find them horrendous. I read about a tiny medieval city of Wurzburg with 15,000 inhabitants and no military or other significance whatsoever. The Americans – perhaps, they had some leftover bombs to get rid of – came in, reduced the city to rubble in 15 minutes and left. For some reason, it bugs me.

    Just imagine that Russia were torn to pieces in the present conflict, which I certainly do not want, but just suppose – what do you think will be in your own school books in fifty years about our time?

    I hope our school books will tell the truth. If nothing else, it’s important for the nation’s self preservation. Whitewashing Germany’s behavior in WWII serves no good purpose, first of all for Germany – for others as well, but above all for Germany. It seems to me that the current German leadership already completely forgotten the lessons of WWII and are doing everything in their power to get embroiled in a conflict with Russia. Such conflicts never ever end well for Germany.

    • 回复: @refl
  245. EugeneGur 说:
    @Nicolás Palacios Navarro

    I would answer your last post point by point, but your closing belch leaves me certain that your brain’s thick encasement of ignorance would render my efforts pointless:

    My friend, your arguments would be a lot more persuasive if you don’t starts with insulting your opponent.Just rely on the strength of your arguments and your knowledge without spitting insults? Can you do that, you think?

    For a second I thought you were someone worth talking to – my mistake.

    And, once again, Koreans themselves were complicit in the “comfort woman” issue.

    Of course, there were Koreans working in those brothels or even administering them. There are always collaborators and traitors in every occupied nation – it doesn’t change anything, for the ultimate responsibility still lies with the occupied power, the Japanese in this case.

    Of course, you also conveniently forget that it was the Japanese (Asahi Shimbun) who publicized and brought wider knowledge of the “comfort woman” issue in the first place.

    我什至不 方便地 forget anything – I simply didn’t know that. I am sure there were honorable Japanese as there were honorable Germans. I am very far from painting the entire nations evil. But what does this change in the grand scheme of things?

  246. AnonFromTN 说:

    Looks like a lot of people either sincerely don’t see the forest behind the trees, or disingenuously try to hide the forest behind the trees.

    There are two separate questions in Dresden, as well as in Nanking. One, was there a mass murder? Two, how many people were actually murdered? While there might be different opinions and counts regarding the latter, there is no doubt regarding the answer to the first question. The murder of 24,000 or 250,000 (Dresden), of 11,000 or 300,000 (Nanking) civilians is a mass murder and a blatant war crime. Those responsible are criminals and must be brought to justice. Even if all the individuals involved are dead now, these mass murders should be called war crimes, regardless of the actual numbers of victims.

    • 回复: @Robjil
  247. Che Guava 说:
    @Colin Wright

    ‘We’is a poor generalisation.

    I am always happy to swat a fly or mosquito, or stamp on a cockroach, but they are just doing wiat their species do.

    In general, I leave arachnids and other insects alone (even if they are living in my place, arachnids are good at eliminating insect pests).

    Moths, indoors, if you are mainly dressing in natural fibres, they *可能* destroy all of your clothes, when overseas, in one season I had these hippy morons assuring me that ‘these moths don’t attack clothing’.

    They did, I lost much, but I am sure that they are still repeating their bullshit.

    Rottweillers are the wrong example, most pit-bull terriers and similar should be wiped off the face of the Earth, along with their owners.

  248. Che Guava 说:
    @Nicolás Palacios Navarro

    Well, you are reversing the order in time, but otherwise a very good point.

  249. Robjil 说:
    @AnonFromTN

    War is supposed to be a fight between soldiers. Attacking civilians is not war, it is genocide. Dresden was a deliberate attack on civilians and world heritage. It is a bigger crime that most of any thing done in WWII for those two reasons. There was no reason to attack Dresden, the war was over. Feb. 13-14 1945 when Dresden was attacked, it was the first two days of the Jewish month of Adar, the month of Purim. The first two days of the Jewish month of Adar are celebrated as Rosh Chodesh. Feb 13 -14 was Rosh Chodesh Adar. Purim is the big holiday celebrating the genocide of Persians who were going to “genocide” the Jews of Persia. The Jews of Persia genocided 75,000 thousand Persians who were connected to Haman the enemy of the Jews of Persia instead. This is what Purim is all about. Haman was supposedly “related” to Agag, King of Amalek.

    https://www.aish.com/h/pur/t/dt/48944731.html

    Purim is an Amalek theme.

    “So what does Amalek have to do with Purim? The Scroll of Esther (3:1) identifies Haman as the descendent of Agag, King of Amalek. Haman’s desire to wipe out the Jewish people was an expression of his long-standing national tradition.”

    Germany identified as “Amalek”. This Amalek theme should be condemned by humanity. It is being used in our days for war crimes that Israel and US do all over the world.

    “Judaism does not deny the existence of individuals with the most extreme psychological disorders, but it does assert that one need not be “sick” to carry out the most brutal and hideous of crimes. Adolf Hitler, Adolf Eichmann and the thousands of doctors, professors, farmers, teachers, barbers, receptionists, retailers, lawyers, mechanics, entrepreneurs and secretaries who made soap, lamp shades, coat stuffing and ashes out of Jews were not sick! They were just plain evil. By abandoning morality, they were able to rationalize genocide as “noble and good.” It is not surprising, therefore, that the Talmud (Megillah 6b) identifies a nation called “Germamia” as the descendents of Amalek.”

    • 回复: @AnonFromTN
    , @Alexandros
  250. Che Guava 说:
    @Nicolás Palacios Navarro

    I do not agree, and you need to learn more history. Saigo Takanori, when part of the Meiji govt., wanted to invade Korea as an immediate goal. He resigned from the government and, in the end, ran the losing side in a civil war (and there were many, Saigo’s was quite late).

    Incidentally termed the ‘North-South war’ in Japanese, which I would expect was from the USA example. The words have the same meanings.

    Later, by stealth, treachery, and assassinations, the govt. did much the same things as Saigo had wanted re. Korea.

    They had executed Saigo many years earlier. The Imperial Army general, after leaving the cave with Saigo’s beheaded head, feeling the need to write a poem in praise of Saigo.

    I am understanding, but there is much more, both before and after.

  251. AnonFromTN 说:
    @Robjil

    You may be right, for all I know. I am not familiar with Jewish religious books or Jewish holidays and myths related to them (although I have some marked on my calendar in the US).

  252. @EugeneGur

    My friend, your arguments would be a lot more persuasive if you don’t starts with insulting your opponent.Just rely on the strength of your arguments and your knowledge without spitting insults?

    When all you can muster are exhausted and by now well-refuted propagandistic talking points as “facts”, it becomes difficult to take you seriously.

    Of course, there were Koreans working in those brothels or even administering them. There are always collaborators and traitors in every occupied nation – it doesn’t change anything, for the ultimate responsibility still lies with the occupied power, the Japanese in this case.

    Would a Korean in 1940 have any clue that colonial Chōsen would be history in a mere five years? Of course, not. “Occupation” implies something transient, impermanent. In retrospect, that was precisely what colonial Chōsen was. However, for most Koreans, including even the few anti-Japanese activists there were (who were mostly from the elite classes), they would have believed that Japanese control over their peninsula would be as binding and permanent as, say, American control has proven to be over formerly Mexican California. They would have considered the Japanese presence no more an “occupation” than the old Californios would have thought so of the the presence of their new American masters. Or for that matter how, say, Armenians or Tajiks once regarded the Russian presence on their lands.

    Therefore, your moralistic framework of “traitors” and “collaborators” is simply as futile as it is anachronistic. Japanese were largely no longer “enemies”. For nearly all Koreans, the Japanese were simply a mostly benign reality that was an inextricable part of their daily lives. Not only were they their superiors, but also their instructors, their local constables, their co-workers, and even their friends. After the March 1st Movement, and the Japanese responded by moderating their rule on the peninsula, the Koreans welcomed Japan as a modernizing influence. As I mentioned earlier, Japanese documentation from the Chōsen era testify to the enthusiasm for Japan and its national objectives. These documents were not written from an angle to flatter Japan, incidentally. Rather, their expression was one of dismay and disappointment that the pro-Japanese patriotic fervor of Koreans significantly outstripped that of their ethnic Japanese peers in Chōsen.

    But if you still believe in your simplistic moralistic framework, then surely you must also regard Anastas Mikoyan, Balysh Ovezov, or Dinmukhamed Kunaev as “traitors” and “collaborators”, too?

    I don’t even conveniently forget anything – I simply didn’t know that. I am sure there were honorable Japanese as there were honorable Germans. I am very far from painting the entire nations evil.

    Again, you lazily regurgitated some propagandistic talking point as irrefutable “fact”. Nowhere did you state or imply that, in truth, you are largely unfamiliar with the “comfort woman” situation and with Japan-Korea historical relations in general. And you certainly were painting Japan with a very broad brush—that was the intent of your remark which I later refuted.

    But what does this change in the grand scheme of things?

    At minimum, truth is its own reward. Ideally, dissemination of the truth will allow for formerly adversarial nations to understand each other better, and develop an improved framework of working together that is not reliant on hypocritical moralism or shame. One can always dream.

    • 回复: @EugeneGur
  253. @Che Guava

    I do not agree, and you need to learn more history. Saigo Takanori, when part of the Meiji govt., wanted to invade Korea as an immediate goal.

    The person who cannot even spell Takamori Saigō’s name correctly is taking me to task for not knowing history!

    Korea was correctly perceived as a dangerous vulnerability to Japan. “A knife pointed to Japan’s throat”, was how one Prussian official famously described its dilemma. In the late 19th century, Korea’s traditional reliance on China as protector and cultural ideal was collapsing, given the corruption and inefficacy of the Qing government, then being ripped apart by the Western powers. Meanwhile, a predatory Imperial Russia was beginning to assert its dominance in Korea, attempting to fill in the political void left by Qing China. Japan’s fears were, therefore, reasonable.

    Later, by stealth, treachery, and assassinations, the govt. did much the same things as Saigo had wanted re. Korea.

    By “stealth”? How so? The Japanese actually very publicly invaded and attacked Korea in the 1875 Ganghwa Island incident, which was instigated by Korean refusal to recognize Japan’s government and its right to broker diplomatic relations.

    You seem to believe that had the Japanese not acted, Koreans would have been a free, democratic peoples in the 19th century. This is false, not only because of the decrepitude of their bureaucratic infrastructure in the late Joseon dynasty, to say nothing of its sore need of the modernization needed to function as a competent democracy, but also because if Japan had not annexed Korea, then Russia would have done so instead. Plain and simple.

    • 回复: @Che Guava
  254. refl 说:
    @EugeneGur

    the current German leadership

    Good, that you bring that up. In fact, I had a paragraph on them in my post and dropped it to keep it focused.
    That empty suite that goes by the title of foreign minister here just early this year went to Auschwitz for the regular apologies and topped it of by stating that he went into politics because of Auschwitz ( whatever that means, even taking the official story at face value). The next thing he did was to spew out all that anti russian blablabla.

    What am I to do with such people?
    I wouldn’t even call these people leadership, but rather a phase in the great meltdown.

    The history that we know contains some serious flaws and the more people realize this the more it will be open season for anyone with his very personal unhealthy revisionism.
    One has to plough through all these things to come to an honest understanding. So for example, now some friend here has just deflated the story of the Nanking massacre – at least, until someone puts forward a strong counternarrative.

    I am sure that in Russia there are people working on different aspect of revision of their part of the story, which at some point in the future might be available in a language I read.

    I fear that little can be expected from my folks, ridden as they are by some guilt complex that even points in the wrong direction.

  255. EugeneGur 说:
    @Nicolás Palacios Navarro

    You’ve chosen a very combative approach using charged words, and, frankly, it’s not to your credit and not designed to win over your opponents. “Propagandistic talking “, “moralistic framework”, “you lazily regurgitated” – is that the best you can do? Apparently, but to me sounds as a perfectly propagandist vocabulary.

    At minimum, truth is its own reward. Ideally, dissemination of the truth will allow for formerly adversarial nations to understand each other better

    Only it has to be the truth, and you do not – contrary to what you think – hold a monopoly on it.

    • 巨魔: L.K
  256. Che Guava 说:
    @Nicolás Palacios Navarro

    Accidentally hitting tthe n instead of m does not mean that I can’t spell.

  257. @EugeneGur

    Only it has to be the truth, and you do not – contrary to what you think – hold a monopoly on it.

    Your numerous ignorant assertions, however, suggest that you think you do.

  258. @Che Guava

    In the context of your chiding me for my purported lack of familiarity with Japanese history—which is false, at any rate—you will understand that the irony was too delicious to ignore.

    • 哈哈: NoseytheDuke, Che Guava
  259. astro3 说:
    @crimson2

    Germany did not start that war, nor did they want it. See my ‘How Britain Initiated both World Wars,’ 2016, a fairly short booklet.

    • 回复: @L.K
  260. @Robjil

    Yes, these non-stop “strange games”, the earliest of which known to me is
    The Great Fire of London, 1666, always involve some “digital magic”.
    The presence of such in most cases can be seen best by applying gematria to
    the verbal descriptions of details of an event, separately and combined.
    And the presence of possible connection between several remote events can be
    tested by analyzing them as a whole.
    The trick is to be able to correctly estimate the uniqueness of details and their
    digital equivalents, as well as to differentiate between natural (not so rare)
    coincidences and the clearly artificial ones.
    For most events in addition to “magic” numbers (like 666, 322, 911, 555, 424, …)
    there’s also an alignment code that syncs all details, starting with the date of event.
    Depending on the scale of event its full digital profile may vary from several lines to
    many pages.
    For Dresden tragedy the “smoke” starts with “Dresden, Germany, WWII”=216=6* 6 *6;
    “Bombing of Dresden, WWII”=216=6* 6 *6; “Firebombing of Dresden, World War II”
    =322; and the “fire” comes with dozens and dozens more lines with specifics, including
    reported by Wikipedia (not really reliable source, but occult-wise they know exactly
    what they are talking about) 722 UK and 527 US heavy bombers, and having in mind
    what ancient “Annual festival Lupercalia from February thirteen to February fifteen”
    一切都是关于。

    • 回复: @Robjil
  261. L.K 说:
    @astro3

    This crimson2 is a hardcore Zionist shill operating here at Unz.

    • 同意: Gefreiter
  262. Robjil 说:
    @AB_Anonymous

    The gematria of making letters into numbers is very complex, easy to manipulate, easy to hide what you are doing, and easy to change. It is not very practical for investigating what our ruling criminals are doing. Simple Jewish numerology or Jewish religious themes are an easier way to find clues about what is going on this planet.

    9/11

    https://www.sacred-texts.com/jud/yetzirah.htm

    CHAPTER 1, verse four

    “4。 十是不可言喻的萨菲罗斯的数字,十而不是九,十而不是十一。 学习这种智慧,并明智地理解它,研究这些数字,从中汲取知识,将设计固定在其纯洁中,然后将其传递给坐在他宝座上的创造者。”

    普林

    1917 – First Russian Revolution of the year

    1946- Purim theme to hang ten National Socialists

    1953- Stalin poisoned

    1991- Last day of the war on Iraq

    2003- Invasion of Iraq

    2011- Invasion of Libya

    2019- US gives Golan Heights to Israel

    Seven Nations to Destroy for 9/11 false flag

    Deuteronomy 7. 1-2

    • 回复: @AB_Anonymous
  263. utu 说:
    @Robjil

    Propaganda on Monte Cassino bombing in G.I. Joe (1945). See 1:31:00

    • 同意: Robjil
  264. @Robjil

    Well, yes, Chess game is more complicated than Checkers, but it doesn’t make
    it inferior to the latter just because it’s too complicated for some.
    So is wrong thinking of the ruling Elite (I’m not talking about the visible part of it)
    as of simpletons – they’re anything but that.
    But I’m not here to change your opinion, especially after seeing enough “checker
    players” on Twitter getting really excited when they find 2 (or even 3 !) matches with
    number 33 using reduced gematria, or reducing everything to 9 in Numerology…
    As for religious themes, it’s just additional dimension to any research, and since the
    name of each theme is fixed they can only contribute to any sensible gematria analysis.

  265. IP Freely 说:
    @Moi

    Don’t be a cunt. Every warmongering civilization is racists to the core. Romans, Mongols, American, English etc…all of them.

    • 回复: @Moi
  266. Thanks for reminding us of the British trial run for nuclear genocide. Britain exists solely to commit the gravest crimes. Fittingly, Britain’s final disappearance up America’s asshole looks to be triggered by the even smaller island they have stolen with forcible population transfer for the purpose of aggression and torture.

    Craig Murray put it best: “The only solution is to break the UK, to shatter it into pieces as small as possible. The chaos at Westminster shows the Imperial power in the final phases of its political decline, something highlighted by the lack of international support at the UN. Let us hasten the UK towards its long overdue demise.”

    https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2019/05/vote-snp-today-chagos-just-one-example-of-the-need-to-dismantle-the-imperial-entity/

  267. Anon[202]• 免责声明 说:
    @crimson2

    Glad Germany finally learned not to start stupid wars.

    You must get your historical narrative and facts from either the back of a cereal box or from Jewish authors: both being equivalent sources.

  268. G 说:
    @crimson2

    Judging by reading your recent comments you are nothing but a vile, leftist, possibly Jewish troll. And a very active one at that. It is funny how the left always projects. The right “hates” they say. When it is very obvious for everyone to see who is filled with the deepest hatred here.

  269. Moi 说:
    @IP Freely

    Now that was really a bitchy thing to say.

  270. Gefreiter 说:

    More important than “How many Germans Died” is “Why did so many Germans have to Die”.

    “Manifesto to the Governments and Peoples of the Christian Nations Threatened by Judaism”:
    The First Anti-Jewish Congress in Dresden, September 11-12, 1882

    In the following manifesto of the First Anti-Jewish Congress, held in the Saxon capital shortly after the first wave of German antisemitism peaked, participants wove virtually all the threads of the “Jewish question” into the fabric – the fabrication – of a monumental struggle against international “Jewish parasitism.” Claiming that all Christian nations had no choice but to recognize the Jew as biologically alien, it called for a reversal of Jewish emancipation and for the expansion of an antisemitic “movement of self-protection.”

    Dresden, like Nagasaki, had been targeted for talmudic vengeance. What happened in February 1945 was the revenge for what had happened in Dresden on September 11, 1882.

  271. Malla 说:
    @Nicolás Palacios Navarro

    Check out these videos on the Japanese Empire, a red pill from lies/matrix of ‘official history’.

  272. Peckerwood 说:

    TS, it’s what you get for starting a war.

  273. Che Guava 说:

    The DRAM wars, we needed more memory to reprerent the language on screen, so naturally, were in the lead for large capacity DRAM.

    The USA, way behind, decided to pretend that Japan was dnmping, and took numerous trade war measures.

    TRON, the realtime operating nucleus, was a very succesful spin-off of tie `fiftht-gen.` computing project, way ahead of Windows or the Mac OS of the time.

    So the govt, NEC, Hitachi, other companies, various research parts of universities, made a plan to make TRON-based machines the centre of school education where computers were involved.

    To say that the USA hit the roof when hearing about this is to say it mildly. Many trade-war threats, much bullying, so it never happened.

    Tron lived, but mainly in phones and some industrial applications, but it could have been much more.

    I tried to find a good link in English, but half of them were hysterical anti articles from the USA, nnne informative.

    I have a very good one, though, on my work PC, will try to post that soon.

    I also still have TRON-related work at timest.

  274. Alexandros 说:
    @Johnny Walker Read

    No. The truth is closer to this: Hitler was what the Allies claimed to be (democrat, justice, civilization), and they are what they claim Hitler to be (evil, selfish, devilish).

  275. Alexandros 说:
    @Robjil

    There was a tribe in Persia called the Germani, as related by Herodotus. Curiously they shared the European Germanic tradition of entering into contracts by being drunk (confirmed when sober, or the other way around). Perhaps these were related to Haman.

  276. GazaPlanet 说:
    @Mike P

    他们无法以实质性或有意义的方式讨论犹太人的权力。 证明它们对于试图了解实际发生的事情基本上毫无价值。 充其量你可以从他们那里推断出一些他们未说明的前提,这些前提是已出版的“学术”社会的规范。

当前评论者
说:

发表评论-对超过两周的文章发表评论,将在质量和语气上进行更严格的判断


 记得 我的信息为什么?
 电子邮件回复我的评论
$
提交的评论已被许可给 Unz评论 并可以由后者自行决定在其他地方重新发布
在翻译模式下禁用评论
通过RSS订阅此评论主题 通过 RSS 订阅所有 John Wear 评论