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亚瑟·詹森(Arthur Jensen)的一代种族遗传主义者(艾森克(Eysenck),拉什顿(Rushton),肖克利(Shockley)甚至是查尔斯·默里(Charles Murray)等人)的姿态与他们目前的许多年轻追随者截然不同。 詹森和他的大多数朋友一样,显然希望证明自己关于智商中的种族差异的遗传假设是错误的,因为他真诚地希望自己观察到的事实不成立,以便可以对学校表现不佳的黑人有所作为。 这使他几乎认真对待每一个发表的反对他的理论的论据,即使这些观点来自对这一领域知识有限的作家,他也耐心地解决了他们的观点。 实际上,有时他甚至会帮助加强反对者的论点,但是鉴于当时的所有统计证据,他的正直使他不得不证明它仍然不够。

相比之下,一些“新詹森尼人”似乎更担心被证明是正确的,并对他们的反建制伽利略情结(他们因其“科学种族主义”遭受了很多不公平的个人和专业排斥)的可能性感到恐惧,而这些事实实际上从来没有根据。在任何辩护的最终真理上。 因此,出于对被证明是错误的严重恐惧,他们的行为与大多数环保主义者批评詹森的行为一样。 他们树立了巨大的稻草人论据。 他们歪曲了与评论家辩论的结果; 有时他们甚至审查(删除)消除他们微弱猜想的论点。

幸运的是,另一方面,也有例外,例如James Thompson博士(以及我们话题中的一些匿名评论者– Chuck,Szopen,Res等),他们愿意至少与他们偏爱的种族遗传假说的批评家进行互动。在激烈而又民间的辩论中。

在他的最后 文章 为了回应我对测试尼日利亚(和非洲)智商低的生物学准确性的统计方法所作的更正,汤普森博士做出了回应,对我的计算结果进行了更正。 现在,这就是精神:他不战而胜!

但是-他仍然会下去!

让我们从最简单的开始。

1.国际象棋辩论

首先,汤普森博士“纠正”​​了我的事实主张,即南非唯一的国际象棋大师是黑人(肯尼·所罗门),并斥责我“混淆”了非洲当地的一个非官方“大师”头衔,成为国际棋联的正式头衔:

“但是,我不同意他对象棋成绩的驳斥是因为缺乏对非洲的训练,特别是当基萨拉(Chisala)继而指出南非的肯尼·所罗门(Kenny Solomon)是国际象棋大师之后。 国际棋联并没有说,因为他尚未达到2500点的最低要求。 …这表明设定起点的门槛或将本地排名与最重要的国际公开赛混合在一起很重要。” (我的重点)。

所罗门的宗师头衔不是“本地排名”; 这是FIDE的正式头衔(是的,FIDE确实如此)。 汤普森本可以检查自己的 链接 到排名南非的FIDE网站上,他会注意到FIDE本身就是给肯尼·所罗门(Kenny Solomon)授予大师级头衔的人。 显然他被Wikipedia误导了。 原谅

汤普森(Thompson)将我们链接到FIDE的南非球员排名表,因为它使白人(Daniel Cawdery)成为南非评价最高的球员。 但是,由于可以通过参加更多的比赛来累积评分(特别是如果一个人可以出国参加锦标赛),因此,较高的评分并不总是反映出较高的实力,尤其是与具有较高FIDE资格的玩家配对时。

例如,最近在2017年XNUMX月,有一次针对南非玩家的公开象棋比赛。 大师级肯尼·所罗门(Kenny Solomon)近年来似乎没有参加太多比赛,这次与他的一些南非队友一起参加了比赛,其中包括评分最高的球员(Cawdery)。 与汤普森(Thompson)首选的收视率排名相反,锦标赛结束时的实际结果似乎与Fide官方头衔更加一致,而不是收视率:

非洲国际象棋联合会锦标赛前十名的最终排名,17年2017月XNUMX日。
非洲国际象棋联合会决赛 排行 17年2017月XNUMX日的前十名。

其他一些HBD博主也认为国际象棋等级完全可以代表天生的国际象棋人才(因为非洲人的国际等级较低)。 一位这样的博客 观察 欧洲血统最高的球员比最高血统的黑人球员高出1个标准差以上,这当然是在迫使国际象棋证实了黑人和白人之间智商得分的(至少)SD差异为1。

但是,任何跟随国际象棋的人都会知道事情并不是那么简单。 评分最高的美国象棋玩家之一(2015年其最高评分仅次于Magnus Carlsen),中村光(日本裔和美国白人混合血统)确实比赞比亚的大师级Amon Simutowe高出约1 SD。 ,这会使某人认为这两个玩家处在完全不同的国际象棋天才世界中。 但是,不难看出这仅是因为Simutowe在其职业生涯中只参加过很少的国际比赛(与同一位博主的说法相反,他主要是自己赞助这些国际比赛)。 最明显的证明是,他天生的国际象棋能力可能不比中村低1 SD,这是在他更加活跃的日子里Simutowe的事实。 做了 在两个非常强大的锦标赛中与中村队比赛。 在这两个游戏中20012007),中村被Simutowe击败, 后失败 在享负盛名的美国公开赛上,比赛特别壮观。

不幸的是,Simutowe在实现自己的童年目标成为正式大师之后不久就停止了下棋,而是决定去牛津大学学习(在那里他曾担任过国际象棋队的最高董事会成员),而中村一郎则一直是专业人士。自幼年就开始执教,继续全职下象棋,并累积了更多积分,直到他跻身世界前两名。 Simutowe和其他非洲象棋棋手一样,拥有 决不要 他一生中只有一位国际象棋教练。

顺便说一句,在不考虑不同球员背景的情况下,将棋牌等级视为先天棋牌能力的不合格表示的错误,与种族遗传学家对智商本身所犯的最普遍的谬论非常相似。 例如,他们以不同国家的人的学业测验分数作为其真实认知能力的近乎准确的表象,并认为这没有错。 我猜他们认为,由于发达国家的双胞胎研究表明,基因在解释测试成绩差异方面最终比家庭(或学校)环境更具决定性,因此可以将其外推到不同社会中的人们进行比较,包括普通学生从未见过数学教科书,并且可能实际上是由一名中学数学成绩不及格的老师教过数学的(因为任何在数学方面成绩不佳的人都不太可能选择非洲公众低得可笑的教师薪水)小学)。

汤普森(Thompson)认为国际象棋可以更好地代表认知比较的原因之一是,它看起来似乎比Scrabble更为复杂,(例如,他写道:“一个人必须考虑到Scrabble比简单的事实简单得多的事实。棋…”)。 但是,汤普森本人也 报道 对我们来说,他所在领域的一项研究发现,某些视频游戏的性能与智能有着高度的相关性。 该研究的作者指出

只有当视频游戏具有中等程度的复杂性,在练习期间显示出较低的一致性并且无法从先前获得的技能中获益时,才能实现与普通智能的显着关系。

I 建议 中等复杂的游戏(拼字游戏和跳棋) 认知需求 (至少在超级精英级别),但受过教育的技能却缺乏优势。 象数学一样,国际象棋有成千上万本书籍(由大师分析很长时间的开局),而且与受过良好训练的老师接触也能从中受益匪浅(尽管一般的智力仍然有可能使受过良好训练的玩家有所作为)。

我使用肯尼·所罗门(Kenny Solomon)在南非取得的大师级成就的原因,并不是为了证明黑人在基因上比南非的白人聪明,而是为了证明甚至象棋对种族假说都不如我们的种族继承人朋友所假定的那样友好。国际象棋训练/教育环境开始变得更加均衡。 南非白人打国际象棋的历史可能较长,可能有更多使用国际象棋的机会,但是整个国家并不是国际象棋教育文化(教练,国际象棋学校等)发展的国家,因此训练制度上的差距不同社会经济阶层之间的关系大大减少。 这种自我教学环境的结果开始接近Scrabble和Checkers的“奇迹”结果:具有极限智力障碍水平IQ的群体是在非洲多种族社会中唯一产生国际象棋大师的人,因为它还培养了该国(Kondlo)的顶级职业跳棋大师,他们的成绩高达 第一 在美国跳棋世界中。

顺便说一句,我相信汤普森会在分析世界100强人物的名字甚至某些西方国家的名字时,会更好地反映(大多数)国家的智商,从而放弃对国际象棋的信心。国家象棋队。 这是无辜国家的顶级玩家的名字 Canada, 例如:

拼字游戏IQ-3

是的,加拿大可能会在国际象棋上击败任何非洲国家,而我们的HBD朋友显然会得出结论,这是因为加拿大的智商高达99,但是加拿大有多少加拿大人? 我可能会在这里四处走动,但我猜想叶夫根尼·别列耶夫(Evgeny Bereev)和安东·科瓦廖夫(Anton Kovalyov)并不是新斯科舍省第一批法国移民的后代!

显然,前苏联政府赞助的国际象棋文化迄今扭曲了国际象棋的排名,这种扭曲已经远远超出了他们以前的共产主义盟友(请注意,俄罗斯加拿大人不到加拿大人口的2%,但统治他们的最佳球员名单)。 因此,是的,差异化的培训文化和资源对于国家智商在国际象棋排名中的作用而言实在是一个很大的困惑。 (顺便说一句,任何国家的大多数顶级拼字游戏玩家都不会与国际象棋共享这个祖先问题。)

我还简要浏览了美国前五名国际象棋棋手的维基百科资料(正如汤普森提醒我们的那样,他们都在世界前一百名中,没有非洲人)。 尽管排名前5位的美国球员不一定全是俄罗斯血统,但没有一个父亲是在美国出生的。 在前十名中,只有一位可能被美国人超越一代人。 这是进一步降低您对国家象棋力量与国家智商之间有意义关联的信心的原因。

有趣的是,汤普森博士似乎将进入前100名国际象棋棋手名单的成员视为对不同国籍的国际象棋实力的有效估计。 当他注意到Scrabble的前100名玩家中尼日利亚人多于美国或英国玩家时,他决定(不加解释)这不是判断Scrabble实力的最佳方法:他提议让我们看看哪些国家获胜了。大多数世界锦标赛(一项指标显然很弱,因为许多因素可能会影响一个国家过去没有获胜的原因:例如,包括尼日利亚在内的一些非洲国家实际上由于未获得签证而错过了一些过去的世界锦标赛) )

最后,在这一点上,没有必要让所有国家或许多国家都玩游戏让我们测试非洲人是否应该能够在最高水平上比赛。 我们只需要确定,在智商较高的任何国家/地区,要想达到最高水平的表现,就必须考虑到认知能力,而鉴于他们的平均智商(正如对儿童的抑制作用一样),这些认知能力实际上会对非洲人产生抑制作用。 仅当其名义智商完全由非生物学因素决定时,才有可能完全违背这种统计期望。 环境可以是高度可塑性的,生物学不能。

[注:包括汤普森在内的一些遗传主义者也一直提醒我,他们的模型已经将环境视为方差解释的一部分,但这是不相关的区别,因为他们(应该)认为,唯一可能对环境产生重大影响的环境因素智商通过生物学手段起作用:例如,如Lynn等人建议的那样,通过降低营养等来使大脑变小。 考虑到在美国的双重研究,他们通常会拒绝诸如培训/教学资源之类的巨大意义。 由于我专注于出生于非洲且大部分生活在非洲的样本,因此差异是100%遗传还是50%无关紧要,因为仍然应该将所有差异全部归因于生物。 对预期性能的蔑视反驳了所有生物学限制的重要性,无论所提议的来源是环境的还是遗传的,并且仅留下非常人为的差异作为重要的差异来源。]

2.汤普森(Thompson)挑战了我在尼日利亚的计算。

“如果需要Scrabble IQ 140,则将其三分之二可以将智能分数从1336尼日利亚人降低到167。Chisala将数字降低到33,因此他一定使用了更高的折扣……他以不同的方式进行了折扣,并且可以解释我们以后的交流的确切减少...”

这是关于估计需要多少智商(高于140)的尼日利亚,应该有多少尼日利亚人能够胜任国际精英拼字游戏,就像在美国那样。

不,我没有使用任何更高的折扣来得出我的数字。 汤普森博士的计算此处假设尼日利亚的智商为75,但他在同一篇文章的开头是向我们通报了一项新的研究,该研究证实了尼日利亚的智商仅为70,这​​几乎与理查德·林恩(Richard Lynn)多年前的计算相符。 如果汤普森博士对尼日利亚使用相同的“确认”智商70,他将得出我的数字。

但是,即使我们使用的智商为75,汤普森博士也应该帮助我们理解为什么尼日利亚的平均智商比西方精神病医院低,却能够向“正常”普南奖数学家提出挑战西部的拼字游戏。 如果您可以给他们足够的政府资助培训,您可以从这样的精神病院中培养出一支世界一流的Scrabble运动员团队吗? 为什么不? 智商的“要点”不是要告诉我们有关现实世界中潜在的表现吗? (观看其他种族的希腊文博主如何将自己转变成由希腊文主义者和环境主义者纠缠不清的杂种,试图使用无尽的自相矛盾的猜想和大本营来回答此类问题!)

资料来源:青年智商和精神障碍(2005年)。 Mortensen等。 英国精神病学杂志。

来源: 年轻人的智商和精神障碍 (2005)。 Mortensen等。 英国精神病学杂志。

3.汤普森拒绝了我对他的计算假设的更正。

“ Chisala建议减少我对尼日利亚聪明人的估计……我认为这些减少幅度过大,并且在将女性排除在智能分数的一般计算之外(因为她们不在拼字游戏玩家中排名靠前)被误认为是错误的。”

一点都没看错。 您确实必须“过度”削减基本人口。 我只想把汤普森博士指向他在同一篇文章中推荐给自己的链接,在那篇文章中他称我的方法“错误”,这是一个 文章 由种族遗传界内的一位统计传奇人物,化名的拉格里菲·杜利昂(LaGriffe Du Lion):

“原始人口统计数据最不适合计算所需的人口分数。 在这个水平的象棋 女性 根本没有竞争力。 都不是 孩子 or 长者。 因此,用于此计算的基本人口可以更好地用总人口来表征 减去妇女,儿童和妓女。 通过以下公式可以很好地近似此数字 减少 人口占其原始价值的25% 设立的区域办事处外,我们在美国也开设了办事处,以便我们为当地客户提供更多的支持。“ (我的重点)。

Du Lion的“过分”减少甚至包括老年人(“ geezers”),这可能也应适用于我们这些尼日利亚拼字游戏玩家的基本人口,因此,能够玩国际精英拼字游戏的尼日利亚男子总数甚至比30人(在一个186亿的国家/地区!)-这意味着,即使所有处于这种情报水平的尼日利亚男人都选择献身于拼字游戏,作为在一个极端贫穷的国家中利用他们据称极为罕见的情报的最佳途径, *仍然*不足以达到他们在精英拼字游戏列表中实际达到的数量。 那是一个 荒谬的还原 如果有的话。

这种对统计预测的巨大蔑视的唯一逻辑原因是,尼日利亚的IQ估计值是从测试中收集的,在这些测试中,性能开发资源所起的作用比在Scrabble中所起的作用要大得多。 出于完全相同的原因,尼日利亚人(和其他非洲人)在拥有如此丰富资源的国家长大后,在许多其他认知领域(包括教育领域)的表现也将超出预期,这与最近英国和美国的情况一样年。

这使我们进入了汤普森下一次更正我的更正的尝试。

4.非洲的自我选择。

汤普森(Thompson)顺便说一句 驳回 我通常的论点是,在美国移民的非洲黑人不应在学术成就中占据主导地位 相比 如果美国黑人(25%)的白人混血儿具有遗传认知优势,则可以将其给予美国黑人。 他认为,非洲黑人如此明显地占优势,这仅仅是因为来自非洲国家(例如尼日利亚)的移民选择非常多。

自从我一世以来,这一直是我一直面对众多种族世俗评论家最困惑的反驳 开始 写这些文章。 我真的不明白他们无法到达这里的原因,因为他们的谬误太明显了:高移民选择,*即使是真的*, 应该 不能 影响*最高*的相对表现,尤其是考虑到黑人美国人与非洲大陆人之间的智商差距(15分)的大小。

是的,移民的自我选择可能会影响 平均,但不是最佳表现。 我再三列举这些例子:如果所有运行最快的印第安人都迁移到牙买加,那么他们的运行速度实际上将比普通黑人牙买加人快。 但这并不意味着*任何* 这些快速的印第安人将跻身牙买加顶级球队。 对于来自这样一个缓慢的平均群体的人口,要赶上一个较快的群体的平均表现,移民的自我选择水平确实可能是一个合理的解释。 但是对于极高的精英表现(*在最前*),其来源人群的平均表现应继续对绝对数字施加限制,特别是如果它具有生物学原因。 仅当两个来源人口的非常人为的环境条件实际上是原始人口平均值差异的真正原因时,才能定义此统计预测。

我的反对者不仅会给移民选择一个理由,以解释为什么黑人非洲人似乎在最高职位上胜过黑人美国人,而且他们甚至难以置信地将其解释为黑人非洲学生发生事件时的解释。 性能优于 英国的所有白人学生。 不,这个差距(智商30分)太大,以至于任何最高荣誉都不会受到自我选择的影响:您需要一些新的合理化方法来解释这种常见的“奇迹”。 自我选择可能会影响平均表现,但不会影响最高表现,尤其是在前两代人中不会(如果有人认为这与非洲移民“育种”了新的认知种族有关,因为HBD曾经是一种较无能为力的反应) 建议!)

如果欧洲最聪明的人中有50%(或任何部分)移民到美国,他们的平均智商可能甚至比美国的Ashkenazi犹太人还要高。 但是,如果您尝试组成某种绝对最聪明的美国人的曼哈顿计划,以快速制造新的量子炸弹以远程蒸发北朝鲜的所有核设施,那么该团队实际上可能仍然全部是阿什肯纳兹,至少这并不矛盾。优越的Ashkenazi IQ的可能生物学/遗传原因。 每个遗传学家都可以理解。

好吧,据我所强调的那样,据报道,黑人美国人与非洲大陆人之间的智商差距甚至是 比阿什肯纳兹犹太人和欧洲人之间的差距更大,美国阿什肯纳兹犹太人(6万)对欧洲人(743亿)的比例远小于美国黑人(46万)与撒哈拉以南非洲人(800亿)的比例。 简而言之,这就像是将阿什肯纳兹人口增加了7倍,同时又将其智商优势提高了3个智商点,而不是在超精英水平上提高了阿什肯纳兹犹太人的统治地位,实际上,我们看到了急剧下降!

对于任何精英阶层,成员资格的认知要求越具有选择性,则与黑人黑人比例成比例的黑人移民越少。 趋势似乎恰恰相反。 而且,不仅这些被认为是超级精选的非洲移民,而且甚至是他们的孩子(包括移民之前出生的孩子),同样的孩子也应该因急剧的回归而*额外*地处于不利地位。 对于 智商的“延迟水平” –谁 明显地 与美国原住民黑人孩子相比,这些高学历的孩子占据了主导地位!

甚至早在1999年非洲移民人数减少时,美国精英大学的趋势就已经与种族假说的预测背道而驰。 哈佛绯红色报道:

资料来源:哈佛·克里姆森(Harvard Crimson)(2007):艾维斯的许多黑人都不来自美国。

来源: 哈佛深红 (2007):艾维斯的许多黑人都不来自美国。

趋势应该是相反的(从“大学”到“常春藤盟校”),就像随着认知选择的增加,阿什肯纳齐犹太人在数字上的主导地位一样。

可以否定此统计预测的“唯一”方法是,如果黑人比其他非洲黑人的智商优势仅是由高度人为且完全依赖于位置的(认知资源)的环境因素引起的。 如果完全是环境的话 然后 黑人美国人的白色基因(他们的20-25%的混合物)给了他们 没有 生物优势,这一结论与包括林恩,拉什顿甚至科克伦在内的每位主要种族遗传主义者为全球种族假设提供的关键“常识”证据明显矛盾:

资料来源:《关于认知能力中种族差异的三十年研究》(2005年)。 菲利普·拉什顿(J. Philippe Rushton)。 心理学,公共政策与法律。

来源: 关于种族认知能力差异的三十年研究, (2005)。 菲利普·拉什顿(J. Philippe Rushton)。 心理学,公共政策与法律。

资料来源:《北方的突厥人》(2017年)。 格雷戈里·科克伦(Gregory Cochran)。 西部猎人博客。

来源: 北方突厥 (2017)。 格雷戈里·科克伦(Gregory Cochran)。 西部猎人博客。

Cochran甚至理解为什么*顶级*精英表现最明显地反映出这种平均差异,至少在它们是真实的而非非人为的情况下:

资料来源:异常值(2014)。 格雷戈里·科克伦(Gregory Cochran)。 西部猎人博客。
来源: 离群 (2014)。 格雷戈里·科克伦(Gregory Cochran)。 西部猎人博客。

PaaS

通过我的 文章 在这里,我强调了种族遗传假说的一些失败的逻辑和统计预测,并且从另一面也看不到没有借用与自己的理论框架相抵触的要素的解释。 他们无法解释非洲黑人与白人儿童的认知表现异常; 或非洲黑人男子与白人妇女的认知游戏表现异常; 或黑人非洲人与黑人美国人的学习成绩异常; 甚至非洲黑人与白人“精神病人”的表现异常。

资料来源:《解决非洲智商难题》(Philippe J. Rushton,2004年)。 VDare.com
来源: 解决非洲智商难题 (2004)Philippe J.Rushton。 VDare.com

如果您有理由可以解释这些种族假说的任何明显异常,请记住,这些理由将自动与IQ分数的全部矛盾:预测现实世界中认知任务的表现。 白人精神病患者和12岁白人儿童不仅应该比成年非洲人能够在拼字游戏和跳棋上赢得更多的世界冠军(经过足够的训练),而且如果他们尝试入选考试,他们甚至应该产生更多的国家优胜奖入围者(等) ! (即使是最激进的10,000小时规则的环保主义者也不会那么乐观。)

实际上,作为一个非洲黑人,该作者确实应该和一些聪明的11岁白人孩子进行这些辩论,因为聪明的13岁白人的巨大智慧应该让他谦卑的灵魂不堪重负!

还原以可笑的荒谬而告终。

只要您没有立即找到任何东西 可确认的 对于现实世界中普遍意义上的趋势的解释与模型的逻辑期望明显矛盾,无论您认为有多少支持证据,假设在默认情况下都应为伪造。 希望和忠诚的热情并不能维持科学的主张。

 
• 类别: 科学 •标签: 非洲人, IQ, 种族/智商, 乱涂 
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  1. Anonymous [AKA "Replying"] 说:

    Funny thing is: Games are not Civilizations.
    Look at Civilizations – they were not built by Chess super geniuses, not in Europe, Africa, Asia or anywhere.

    “Oh! I Could make the same case for IQ!! It means nothing!!”
    But it correlates with Civilizational achievements, so, not Chess, not Scribble.

    • 同意: Realist
  2. Wally 说:

    假新闻!

    The author’s laughable verbosity aside, there will always be a few high IQ people among groups who obviously have low IQs.

  3. Scrabble exercises the higher thought of language. Chess is the preserve of psychopaths.

    • 回复: @Anonymous
  4. It of course is very racial to write that a few interviews on Dutch tv with black citizens of St Maarten make me comprehend why this country, yes, it is country, always was a mess politically, to which now is added the mess caused by the hurricane.
    They do not even understand that the Netherlands has very little to do with their country, we just defend them militarily and do their foreign policy.
    When things were good on the island country any Dutch interference was resisted, now that the country is unable to pick up the pieces the Dutch taxpayer is expected to pay.
    I for one do not expect that the debate on IQ will ever end.
    The crucial question is ‘are those with more brains, because of that more prosperous, morally obliged to help those with less brains ?’.

    • 回复: @GourmetDan
  5. @Anonymous

    The well known Dutch historian Huizinga wrote a book on the, according to him, important role of games in any civilisation.
    His arguments are impressive.
    The first explanation for me why people gather in their tens of thousands to see some match, and are emotionally very agitated about who wins.
    Johan Huizinga,《鲁登人》,巴塞尔,1938 年

  6. It’s always nice to read something written by someone waaayy out on the extreeemely thin right tail of his race’s curve.

  7. Who does scrabble appeal to? Well, one large group will be literary types, who love playing with words. People with such verbal aptitude will probably be better with numbers too.

    So that’s one group who it appeals to. But it’s not necessarily who wins. Scrabble is largely about remembering 2 and 3 letter words and knowing the common ways to prepend and append words. This itself is not a particularly intellectual endeavour – it’s just rote memorization.

    So you will have two classes of professional scrabble player – those who enjoy staying up all night reading Jane Austen and those who are memorising the two letter words. One of these groups may have higher IQ, but they may occupy the same ability level when playing scrabble.

    Therefore, Scrabble is not a reliable indicator of intelligence.

    • 回复: @Triumph104
    , @TRM
  8. DFH 说:

    As such, they behave the same way that most environmentalist critics of Jensen have always behaved, out of a grave fear of being proved wrong: they gratuitously insult their strongest critics; they erect massive strawman arguments; they misrepresent the results of their debates with critics; and sometimes they even censor (delete) arguments that dismantle their weak conjectures.

    This is very rich coming from an African who is arguing (against all other data) for his race’s intelligence on the basis of a small number of scrabble and chess players.

  9. Santoculto 说:
    @Anonymous

    But IQ is still a type of game. It’s the best cognitive game but still a game, a relatively good accurate simulation but intelligence without creativity and rationality really is just cognition.

    Instead test intelligence why not analyze it?? Psychologists and other people on this area must apply a psychological approach to do a potentially complete analysis on individual levels (that is obviously expansible to collective/group levels).

    IQ is a simulation and supposedly via acultural ways but human intelligence is nothing without culture.

  10. Since science measures correspondence of variables, and not reality itself, there will always be gaps in our knowledge.

    The basic problem race deniers face is the theory of evolution, and why broad in-groups of people didn’t develop different biological features in reaction to differing environments.

    • 回复: @LauraMR
  11. The average IQ of 70 – and even more the lower IQs of Khoi San and Australian Aborigines – have always seemed to me to defy common sense and cast doubt on the work of my sometime amiable correspondent Phil Rushton. The fact that some g correlated tests had been conscientiously, if not very imaginatively or intelligently, conducted in Africa and come up with the 70 average invited a response which could be made polite perhaps by referring to apples and oranges. (Not that it makes sense to tecruit immigrants with measured IQs of <90.)

    However the African-American 1 sd deficit is much less easy to ridicule and, after 100 years without much change my presumptions turn to what one might expect of evolution. That is, in the one hand, that Ice Age Eurasia is likely to have selected for cognitive abilities more than the conditions of life in Africa, and, on the other hand, there is such huge genetic and environmental (including social) variety in Africa that it should surprise no one to discover that sub castes with millions of members produced g scores comparable to those of Europe.

  12. There are already some comments above and there will be more below that keep repeating the usual silly straw man that I’m simply presenting the existence of a few high IQ black people as an argument against the racial hypothesis. (Or variations of same straw man). I trust the more serious readers will see that the argument is about statistical and logical contradictions and they’ll hopefully offer counter-arguments that are relevant to that discussion.

    I may check the thread later to see if there are any such serious responses. Thank you.

  13. Hu Mi Yu 说:

    I think there are a couple of scientific fallacies involved here.

    For one thing there is a confounding of evolution with Darwinism. It was the 19th century philosopher Herbert Spencer who invented the term “survival of the fittest” and put Darwin’s name on it. Darwin considered this in his “Origin of Species” and rejected it. He noted that all mammals must evolve not as individuals but as members of a population.

    A civilization is a population, and there is no reason to assume that the optimum distribution of IQs for such a population is technically statistically normal. Economics has dictated that a population of mostly grunts and a few high IQ types is the most productive, but in today’s more technical world this is changing.

    Yesterday I was reading a blog and comments on breeding a new race with super IQ. I think it was on unz.com, but I can’t find it now. It is not on the list here. Generally all of the commentators assumed that you could predict IQ by finding a set of SNPs (single nucleotide polymorphisms) that correlate with IQ and then using recombinant DNA to introduce them into fetuses. The problem here is that inhereted IQ is probably not a linear function of individual independent SNPs. If it were, then the central limit theorem
    would apply and a normal distribution would be guaranteed.

    What I would expect instead is that IQ is a strongly nonlinear function of SNPs. Polymorphism ABCDE may lead to high IQ, but ABCDe might have average or even lower than average IQ. In such a circumstace we would expect a large number of high-IQ outliers. Predictions using assumed normal distributions based on mean and standard deviation would routinely under predict the number of high-IQ individuals in a population with lower mean scores.

    I think this might explain your observations.

  14. Polymath 说:

    The author is correct that the game results present a serious challenge to IQ theories, and most of the criticisms in this thread are off point. However, as a chess master and mathematician professionally familiar with the Elo rating system, I should correct some misconceptions he has. Elo rating is not a measure of talent or of diligence but of playing strength, which is a mixture of the two. Furthermore, it does not follow a simple Bell curve at all, because the numerical scale is based on actual game results: a 200 point gap corresponds to the stronger player winning 75% of the points in a match, and the distribution is much flatter than a bell curve. The Elo gap in chess between whites and Asians, one the one hand, and people of African descent on the other, is so vast, especially at the top levels, that chess provides much less support for the author’s view than Scrabble does.

    I agree with Wizard of Oz that the main conclusion that can be drawn from the author’s data is that the “low=IQ” populations of Africa have much larger “smart fractions” than would be expected from a normal distribution. But of course if you combine two normal distributions with different means, you get something very non-normal. Africa has some smart ethnic subgroups, as do non-African races on other continents. The same is true of India, but it doesn’t seem to bother anyone that India has both many very smart people and a very low average IQ.

    Genome studies will shed much more light on this in the next few years.

  15. GourmetDan 说:
    @jilles dykstra

    The crucial question is ‘are those with more brains, because of that more prosperous, morally obliged to help those with less brains ?’.

    Always fun to watch the ‘less-capable’ demand equivalence when it benefits them… then turn around and play the moral-guilt game when it benefits them.

    Politicians, of course, play both sides of this game without fear of having their hypocrisy exposed…

  16. BB753 说:
    @Chanda Chisala

    Are there any serious studies showing a strong correlation between IQ and scrabble (or chess) ability?

  17. While white intellectual supremacists blather on about the stupidity of Africans, the Africans get on with the business of inheriting the Earth, multiplying with astonishing speed and flooding into the European homelands and former European colonies, to replace the moribund, European populations.

    On the assumption that human intelligence is an evolved characteristic that promotes reproductive success, it appears that IQ is a poor measure of the adaptive value of the human brain, just as it is evidently a poor measure of Scrabble playing potential.

    • 回复: @Santoculto
    , @MarkinLA
    , @bomag
  18. 我对拼字游戏和智商辩论的最后一句话

    Correction: My Last 4,100字 on the Scrabble and IQ Debate

    I wish long submissions like this one came with abstracts.

  19. DFH 说:
    @Chanda Chisala

    Which is more likely, that games are worse indicators of intelligence (in other domains) than would expect or that all other tests of African intelligence ever conducted are wrong?

    • 回复: @Stan d Mute
  20. It’s probably hopeless, but are all the critics so SURE they know the exact cause of all complex human behavior? The tendency to reductionism is a bad habit. . .

  21. Tyrion 说:

    Chanda, you’re still failing to understand regression to the mean in the context of IQ and race.

    Race is a somewhat useful label with a range of moderately predictive powers. On closer inspection, the label actually smothers huge diversity beneath it going all the way down through ethnicities, tribal groups, castes, families and to the individual.

    If an outlier is going to regress to a mean, they are much more likely to regress to their family mean. Family is a well-defined biological fact.

    I get why you insist on consistently making the same mistaken argument. People on this site like pretending that there is a racial regression to the mean that stays relevant even when you know a great deal more information about someone, like who their parents are. They like pretending because it is the go-to HBD argument against race-mixing with high IQ individuals from races averaging lower in IQ. It is a clever bit of jujitsu therefore that you are using, but it is also obviously wrong.

    It is akin to predicting a player’s batting average on the mean for teams in their league rather than their own previous seasons. It is better than rolling a dice, but that is about it.

    The problem for your articles is that without that fatal (purposeful?) misunderstanding they don’t carry water.

  22. res 说:

    Your South African table doesn’t (AFAICT) directly show that Kenny Solomon is a GM (if you disagree please point me to the exact place you see that information at that link).

    However, his profile page does show that he earned the FIDE Grandmaster title in 2015 and is thus much better evidence for your point: https://ratings.fide.com/card.phtml?event=14300192

    The interesting question is how did he become a GM given that the threshold is usually 2500 and his current ranking is just under 2400 (per link above it is 2398)? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FIDE_titles#Grandmaster_.28GM.29
    Much more on the Grandmaster title and its history: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grandmaster_(chess)

    If anyone has an FIDE account (I do not) they can check his progress with the rating chart to see if he ever exceeded 2500.
    His Wikipedia page gives his peak rating as 2461 in 2012: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenny_Solomon
    Per that page he achieved his Grandmaster title by winning the African Chess Championship in December 2014. The odd thing is that this 2012 article mentions that both a 2500 rating and “three norms” are required (full article no longer available at the original site, emphasis mine): https://web.archive.org/web/20120925042110/http://allafrica.com/stories/201209170659.html

    Solomon is on the verge of attaining the highest possible ranking in the chess world, with the exception of “World Champion”. Chess SA President Emelia Ellappen explained to the Daily Maverick that in order to achieve Grandmaster status, one has to have a rating of 2,500, with three “Grandmaster norms”. You get your norms by performing well at chess tournaments at which other Grandmasters are competing. Solomon has the norms in the bag already. All he now needs is 50 more rating points, but the really difficult part is behind him: it is now assured that Solomon will become South Africa’s first-ever chess Grandmaster, a title he will hold for life. He joins more than 1,300 active Grandmasters worldwide.

    Strange. That article was also about three years premature AFAICT. BTW, it appears they misjudged which part (norms vs, rating) was most difficult.

    So Kenny Solomon is an FIDE Grandmaster per the FIDE. However, I think this makes rather than refutes Dr. Thompson’s point about the importance of impartial thresholds for analysis of quantitative traits (like IQ or FIDE rating).

    Regarding selective immigration, if I recall correctly the 比例 of high performers in a given immigrant population (e.g. the UK) was an important component of your mean IQ estimates argument for the underlying country populations.

    IAB的人才外流数据位于 http://www.iab.de/en/daten/iab-brain-drain-data.aspx
    provides detailed data for immigrants by both source and destination country divided into three skill levels. That data clearly shows how selective immigration is (e.g. from Nigeria to the UK). How about you pick a relevant pair of countries and we can have a further discussion about that? Alternatively you can just concede that there IS significant selective immigration and we can move on to the discussion you started above as to whether or not that matters (and revisit some of your earlier arguments and assertions concerning selective immigration).

  23. The entire debate may be about crystallized versus fluid intelligence.

    Scrabble requires that one be intelligent enough to be able to “crystallize” the patterns for solving each situation, so that a person can do it without having to think about it the next time they run into the same situation, but no more intelligent than that.

    Winning games like chess and Scrabble requires some fluid intelligence (IQ), and massive amounts of crystallized intelligence (stored solutions), which is why they need so much training.

    If you are familiar with computing, it is easy to understand what this means. A lower-IQ person can 模拟 high IQ in a game like Scrabble using this function:
    function(game_context) {
    if(cached_answer_exists(game_context)) {
    return get_cached_answer(game_context); // extremely fast, even for a low IQ person
    }
    其他{
    return compute_answer(game_context); // slow, even for a very high IQ person
    }
    }

    So a game like Scrabble has a very high “caching advantage”, a person who spends immense amounts of time with it will have thousands, maybe millions, of cached answers in their heads, that enable them to nearly instantaneously find the solution for a new game context, because there is no computation involved, the solution is cached in their brains.

    A lower-IQ Scrabble “genius”, however, will be incapable of mastering a topic of study they have never studied before (such as economics), so that they can quickly come up with original and interesting solutions and ideas within the field, because their genius is about being good at caching answers. Their genius has nothing to do with fluid intelligence, the type of intelligence needed to handle massive data, operate on it and synthesize new things from it. Your millions of cached Scrabble solutions are just that, millions of cached Scrabble solutions. A Scrabble genius is like a computer that has tons of Scrabble solutions and is very good at winning Scrabble games, but that cannot do much of anything else. The computer is not an AI genius, it simply has a hard drive that is filled with canned solutions.

    My hypothesis, therefore is this: A race or nationality’s ability to master Scrabble does not predict its intellectual, scientific or technological achievements, because Scrabble does not require very high IQ, while the rest of these things do.

    In fact, I would hazard a guess that very few really-high-IQ people (135+) bother to play games like Scrabble, because they would rather do something open-ended, rather than something entirely unproductive, with their time. Almost everyone I have met who was dedicated to chess and similar closed-ended games has not been an intellectual genius who could say something intelligent and interesting about geopolitics, for example.

    I do not enjoy watching sports, and no really-high-IQ person I know enjoys them either, because it is closed-ended. There is only so much that can happen. We soon get a feel for the game and get bored with it. We would rather play a complex computer simulation game where we can manage the affairs of an empire, even though this too ultimately gets boring so that we start to read hundreds of books on economics and history like maniacs.

    Another hypothesis is this: A Scrabble genius will be very bad at games with a low caching advantage. Thus a race or nationality that is good at Scrabble will perform worse at Go than a higher IQ nation, because Go has a lower caching advantage (it requires more fluid intelligence, i.e. IQ, since the situations that arise in the game are too diverse to cache, there will of course still be some caching advantage, therefore we must find a game that has a very low caching advantage, such as…Raven’s Progressive Matrices).

    • 回复: @Rdm
    , @utu
  24. res 说:
    @Polymath

    Thanks for providing an informed point of view. As a chess master can you comment on the FIDE Grandmaster criteria and how they correspond to the Kenny Solomon points in my earlier comment?

    Can you comment further on this?

    Furthermore, it does not follow a simple Bell curve at all, because the numerical scale is based on actual game results: a 200 point gap corresponds to the stronger player winning 75% of the points in a match, and the distribution is much flatter than a bell curve.

    I am particularly curious as to how well the actual curve is explained by hypothesizing a truncated Bell curve. In other words, most of the chess Bell curve does not play chess, much less have an Elo rating. I consider this similar to what is seen with, for example, baseball WAR (Wins Above Replacement) ratings. This page has a WAR distribution curve for 2010 players: http://www.fangraphs.com/library/misc/war/

    Do you have a link to the actual Elo rating curve? Some relevant discussion including a (Bell shaped) graph of a similar metric: https://lichess.org/qa/87/could-we-have-a-bell-graph-of-all-player-rating-

    P.S. I agree with you and Wizard of Oz that the main conclusion that can be drawn from the author’s data is that the “low=IQ” populations of Africa have much larger “smart fractions” than would be expected from a normal distribution. I would add “and the usually quoted country IQ means and standard deviations” to that statement for clarity though. My preferred explanation (I have expounded on this at length in earlier Scrabble threads) is multifactorial and includes smart subfractions and somewhat depressed phenotypic (relative to genetic) IQ in the bulk of the country populations.

  25. utu 说:
    @Polymath

    There is no empirical evidence that normal distribution is a good approximation of the actual distribution of IQ’s even in countries where lots of testing has been done. The approximation gets worse further away form the mean. In most of African countries very little testing have been done and often of dubious quality. Lots of African IQ’s were concocted by Richard Lynn and have no basis in empirical results.

    • 回复: @Stan d Mute
  26. Tiny Duck 说:
    @Chanda Chisala

    不要打扰。

    This place is for failed middle aged white men looking to blow off steam.

    I just come here to have fun at their expense. Always entertaining.

  27. TL:DR

    Can we take this jackass at his word? Ron? Can you enforce his promise that it’s his “last words” here? Please? Tiny Duck says the exact same thing but far more concisely.

    It is boring to exhaustion to see yet another “Africans be smart” screed when ANYONE with eyes, ears, and gray matter between them can glance at Africa and see the fruits of this “African intelligence” for themselves. The ONLY reason this clown can even communicate is that we were too dumb to treat Africa like the Andaman Islands. Otherwise he’d be happily munching on his neighbors and hoping (in vain) one of his cousins would invent the wheel or numbers or writing.

  28. Intelligence is a very tricky substance. And while statistically IQ-tests, chess, and some other intellectual games to some degree can be used to measure the cumulative “intellectual potential” of this or that group (provided these groups are statistically equal in ALL related senses), the decisions many people make by their hearts often top all those IQ-related choices. Who needs and creates “smart weapons” of mass destruction, deception and enslavement ? People with high IQ ? I don’t’ think so. They look more like primitive, greedy, suicidal idiots.

  29. @Tyrion

    Chanda, you’re still failing to understand regression to the mean in the context of IQ and race.

    Color me surprised. Of course there are African unicorns, only an idiot would claim otherwise. That’s NOT the issue. The issue is that the “intelligent African” is still missing everything else that makes our civilization possible AND that he is so incredibly rare that if he had invented the wheel his neighbors would just have used it to roast him before eating him.

    Why does Ron publish this inanity? We KNOW Africans are 50,000-100,000 years behind in evolution. We know they share the lowest recorded average IQs on the planet with Papuans and such. We know they have statistical outliers like every other race. We know nothing, no intervention, changes any of this. Can we move on now?

    • 回复: @RaceRealist88
  30. @utu

    In most of African countries very little testing have been done and often of dubious quality. Lots of African IQ’s were concocted by Richard Lynn and have no basis in empirical results.

    Great idea: Why don’t you go IQ test the Nigerian, Congolese, etc cannibals???

  31. Rdm 说:
    @Ikram Hawramani

    Giving the benefit of the doubt, I would argue for Chanda here.

    I don’t usually agree with Chanda for his nebulous, poster picture of Black students admitted into all Ivy leagues.

    But here in this post, he’s not arguing for how far Africans have progressed in civilization. This post is only arguing against Dr. Thompson.

    The bottom line is, there are many variables and factors that influence one’s innate intelligence. Genetics is a part of the whole game. However we all have agenda. Dr. Thompson has an agenda to downplay the entire African intelligence. Chanda has an agenda to promote the real racial gap. In all of those arguments back and forth, Dr. Thompson seems moving his goal posts every time Chanda brought up the counter-argument.

    Not that I agree with both of them. But Dr. Thompson here immensely failed to definitely argue why Blacks are xxx standard deviation below Whites regarding intelligence.

    1st Chess,
    then Scrabble,
    now Checkers?

    Maybe next time, Uno? or Monopoly?

    What I agree with your comment is, those Chess, Scrabble genius are only good at repetitive tasks with so many variables. But that doesn’t say much about one’s true intelligence.

    • 回复: @utu
  32. utu 说:
    @Ikram Hawramani

    Interesting. Every game has caching advantage and more so when you move high in the ladder towards becoming a professional game player. The fact that you find games boring and not worth investing your time might be an indications that you prefer to shine among dilettantes where very little investment can produce interesting, on relative scale, results.

  33. utu 说:
    @Rdm

    But that doesn’t say much about one’s true intelligence. The objection applies to IQ test scores. How do they correlate to true intelligence if we do not know what true intelligence is. Allegedly IQ scores correlate with various measures of success in modern society but close scrutiny of these results shows that the claims are inflated partly by using dubious methods of restricted range correction that always increase correlation and if you push them hard you can get correlation even higher than 1. This is one of the contributions to mathematics by Spearman and others of his ilk.

    • 回复: @CanSpeccy
  34. J1234 说:

    At first, this guy’s guy’s articles were thought provoking. Then annoying. Now they’re just funny. (To the extent that flogging a dead horse is funny, that is.)

    There are smart black people. There have always been smart black people. There will always be smart black people. The problem is, individuals aren’t populations, and populations aren’t individuals, much as the author wants it to be so. Turning the anecdotal into something that’s general never works in the long run.

    Example: Because of the energy industry, North Dakota may be a more “prosperous” state than South Dakota (or maybe not.) Nobody thinks that this would mean that 每个人 in North Dakota is more prosperous than 每个人 in South Dakota. In fact, it’s probably commonly accepted that the most prosperous people in (less prosperous) South Dakota are far more wealthy than the majority of North Dakotans.

    Does this negate or invalidate the notion that South Dakota is a less prosperous state than North Dakota, or vice-versa, what the case may be? Of course not. And so it goes with black people vs. white or Asian people and intelligence.

    It’s possible that the some of smartest black people in Africa are drawn to high prestige games like chess to prove wrong the inferior black intelligence thesis (likely the same reason that the author is drawn to this field of study.) Maybe scrabble, too. Whatever the case, the author only seems to make his (repeated) arguments in relative microcosms, instead of the macrocosm.

    This doesn’t mean the HBD crowd is without fault. They sometimes fall into their own logical traps. Technologically and politically advanced civilizations don’t always accompany generally high intelligence populations, as some regions in Asia seem to indicate. There seems to be something other than 只是 intelligence at work in that regard. They also don’t seem willing to correct the generally erroneous notion among some race realists that “whites are smarter than blacks” means “I’m smarter than that random black guy walking down the street.”

  35. @DFH

    Which is more likely, that games are worse indicators of intelligence (in other domains) than would expect or that all other tests of African intelligence ever conducted are wrong?

    It’s much simpler than this. His entire premise is: “Look! Unicorn!”

    IOW, “see, Clarence Thomas is pretty smart by white standards” QED “Africans be smart.” It makes as much sense as a white guy arguing, “Isaac Newton was genius” QED “all whites are smart.” Western Civilization was not the product of Newton or Aristotle or Teller or Watson, but the product of a relatively high percentage of such men amid a relatively low population of imbeciles. Africa is the EXACT opposite. It has a minuscule number of geniuses amid a VAST ocean of retards. That’s the reality. The rest is just self-aggrandizement.

    Note too that IQ alone isn’t the whole story. Altruism? Esp outside one’s own clan? Creativity (not just IQ but that spontaneous epiphany that changes everything)? Determination and doggedness? Time preference? Mating habits? Etc.

    Bottom line: Western Civ works just great minus Africans. Africa is savage cannibal carnage minus whites. We gain no benefit from Africa or her children. We should never have introduced ourselves or interfered. We should now work to return her stolen children and allow them to develop in their unique way on their own.

    • 回复: @RadicalCenter
  36. Yan Shen 说:

    Honestly my layman’s hunch here is that sub-Saharan Africa is basically a lesser version of India, i.e. racially heterogeneous with various sub-groups differing in intelligence. Hence some groups like the Igbo seem to do particularly well as immigrants in the West. India’s overall stated IQ is lower than the 85 often attributed to African Americans right? So there you go.

    That being said, I do think that Chanda’s various data points such as Scrabble competitions or the performance of African immigrants in the West make a compelling argument that assuming all of sub-Saharan Africa to be normally distributed for IQ with mean 70 and SD 15, as is standard, is probably flawed and underestimates the number of tail end talent from that region.

  37. szopen 说:

    Wicherts, Dolan, Maas, 2010, “A systematic literature review of average IQ of sub-saharan Africans”. When I read it few years ago I thought they were biased, but right now I think their reported values are more close to reality. They report studies giving Nigerian IQ from 77 to 98.6, with their estimation of Nigerian IQ to being 83.8 (95% confidence interval for it being inbetween 79.9 and 87.6).

    It’s also frustrating that so many people still don’t get the Chandy Chisala’s arguments and repeat the same tired cliches. It’s not about there being some top scrabble or chess players. Once again, it’s about – given the size of the population, postulated standard deviation and average IQ plus known characteristics of player’s base population, it’s impossible to be THAT many good players.

    In contrast, the Wicherts’ et al estimations (maybe even corrected up to 85) could explain the facts.
    They would not, however, explain RPA, since their estimation for RPA is 77; however, with IQ 85, the results are plausible.

    All in all, definetely Lynn’s values for subsaharan Africa are untenable.

    • 回复: @szopen
    , @DFH
    , @CanSpeccy
    , @Bill
    , @matt
  38. @res

    If anyone has an FIDE account (I do not) they can check his progress with the rating chart to see if he ever exceeded 2500.

    • 回复: @res
    , @Wally
  39. szopen 说:
    @szopen

    Ugh, Sorry Chanda for mangling your name again. There is one famous “Chandy” in my field of expertise and this is most probable reason for my continous mistakes. I apologise and I would want to say that this is not intentional.

  40. Santoculto 说:
    @CanSpeccy

    Because higher IQ has been evolved in artificial environments and strongly correlated with “self” domestication and because (((thoose))), you know, use its coward astuteness to poison white tra\$he’s (of all social classes namely the “educated” ones). If so called higher IQ (using iqstic narrative) had evolved in natural environments (to natural challenges) this creepily human story had been different. Maybe Africans are preferable as the new global class of slaves, too weak to challenge those on the top at least in direct ways.

    You like to talk about genius and how creativity is the highest manifestation of intelligence. So how explain very lower fertility of the most “brightest” of the “men”?? Creativity versus reproductivity??

    • 回复: @RaceRealist88
    , @CanSpeccy
  41. Santoculto 说:

    What is the difference a pop with avg IQ 70 and other with Avg IQ 80??? We still will have many people with avg IQ in the 70’s, indeed “half” of them still have avg IQ in this range.

  42. @utu

    Allegedly IQ scores correlate with various measures of success in modern society

    But the only measure of success in society, modern or otherwise, that ultimately counts, or so any Darwinist would maintain, is representation in succeeding generations, and at that, Africans are beating the Hell out of both Whitey and Yellow.

    This offensive remark, like a turd placed on the dining table, will of course be scrupulously ignored by the IQists. But if anyone seriously believes that the human nervous system evolved to score highly on an IQ test, then I can tell you I don’t have any respect for their intelligence.

    • 回复: @utu
  43. DFH 说:
    @szopen

    It’s also frustrating that so many people still don’t get the Chandy Chisala’s arguments and repeat the same tired cliches. It’s not about there being some top scrabble or chess players. Once again, it’s about – given the size of the population, postulated standard deviation and average IQ plus known characteristics of player’s base population, it’s impossible to be THAT many good players.

    That one small data incongruity is not enough to throw out all previous IQ research. If one has to choose between IQ tests and games, then the reasonable adjustment to the hypothesis is that scrabble is a less reliable indicator (or maybe that there is something different about the African IQ distribution), rather than that all of the previous IQ research on Africa is wrong.

    • 回复: @szopen
  44. @Stan d Mute

    “We KNOW Africans are 50,000-100,000 years behind in evolution.”

    ….. This has to be the stupidest comment I’ve ever read at Unz Review.

    • 回复: @Wizard of Oz
  45. Jm8 说:
    @Tyrion

    I think some of this was discussed earlier. The evidence indicates that the children of above average African Americans (above average African American families) score (seeming to “regress”) toward a lower mean. But those of Africans do not.

    https://www.unz.com/article/closing-the-black-white-iq-gap-debate-part-3/

    “The mere possibility that the African immigrants in our experiment could be an elite, unrepresentative group does not matter in itself (I don’t know how many ways to emphasize this point, which is the subject of the most popular straw man among those who keep arguing that the immigrants are “not representative” of their source populations). It does not matter *because Jensen gave us a prediction specifically concerning a sample of exclusively elite, “unrepresentative” Blacks.*

    Reading from the same Jensen paper, we are told this about elite Black Americans:

    “Matching Black and White children for the geographical areas of their homes, the schools they attend, and other finer grade socioeconomic indicators again reduces the mean group IQ difference but does not eliminate it. Black children from the best areas and schools (those producing the highest average scores) still average slightly lower than do White children with the lowest socioeconomic indicators (Herrnstein & Murray, 1994, pp. 286–289; Jensen, 1998b, pp. 357–360). This is an anomaly for the culture-only theory but is explained by genetic theory through regression to the mean.”

    Well, the African immigrant children test scores now present an anomaly for the racial genetic theory precisely because of regression to the mean (even if we ignore the more self-damning claim that American Blacks should have even higher intelligence due to their higher white admixture).

    We know that children of native Black Americans earning \$200,000 a year in family income score lower on SAT scores than children of Whites getting only \$20,000 in family income (\$10, 000 per parent!). We also know that the Nigerian income in the US is only \$57,000, which is lower than the non-Hipspanic white income, and yet their children still score at least as high as children of Whites, which is the opposite of Jensen’s predicted result. ”

    • 回复: @Tyrion
  46. @Santoculto

    People don’t get that ‘intelligence’ evolved due to intelligent systems/physiology and the changeability of the environment. This is why the Neo-Darwinian Modern Synthesis is wrong, re: differential fitness due to ‘the survival of the fittest’. It’s well known now but heritable morphologic change can occur in vertebrates without any/little genetic change.

    Once the Neo-Darwinists accept that then we can change/replace the modern synthesis. Genes are the slaves, not the masters, of development.

    Without a homeodynamic physiology along with changeable environment, ‘intelligence’ (however defined) would not have evolved.

    • 回复: @RadicalCenter
  47. @Santoculto

    So how explain very lower fertility of the most “brightest” of the “men”?? Creativity versus reproductivity??

    First, creativity is largely dependent on culture, and the English had, by a series of chance historical developments, the culture most conducive to creative thought. That is why, according to a Japanese study, most of the important features of the modern world are the result of British inventions.

    Second, being creative need be in no way associated with fertility. Indeed, it clearly is not, since the Brits, notwithstanding their creativity, are committing suicide through a combination of suppressed reproduction and mass replacement immigration.

    True some thoughtful if not creative individuals see this and oppose this tragic development. But thoughtful and creative individuals are often among the least capable in the political realm: think Darwin who was made physically sick by social interaction, or Henry Cavendish and Paul Dirac, two other highly uncommunicative English geniuses. Cavendish discovered the element hydrogen but neglected to tell anyone. And Dirac was so uncommunicative that friends at Cambridge named a unit of communication in his honor: one Dirac being equal to the utterance of one word per hour.

    • 回复: @Santoculto
    , @MarkinLA
  48. res 说:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Thanks, Anatoly! Do you have any insights into the weirdness of Kenny Solomon becoming a FIDE Grandmaster without ever reaching the (supposedly required per the article I quoted) 2500 rating?

    P.S. For anyone attempting to interpret that chart be sure to notice how nonlinear the time axis is! The updates happened at vastly different intervals.

    • 回复: @res
  49. @szopen

    尼古拉斯克里斯托夫在 “纽约时报”:

    The average American in the year 1900 had an I.Q. that by today’s standards would measure about 67. Since the traditional definition of mental retardation was an I.Q. of less than 70, that leads to the remarkable conclusion that a majority of Americans a century ago would count today as intellectually disabled.

    Since the average American 117 years ago was probably at least as well off and as well educated as today’s average Nigerian, what’s the fuss about?

    One has to assume that if Nigerians become rich and well educated their IQ’s will come to match those of Americans today, and that in the meantime, the minority of Nigerians who receive a good education or who devote much time to acquiring intellectual skills such as those required in playing chess or Scrabble, will perform pretty much as the better educated Americans, as the evidence seems to show.

    • 回复: @Anonymous White Male
  50. @Tyrion

    I’ve explained this many times before, but since you seem sincere in your confusion, I will explain it again.

    When I say “regression to the mean” I do not mean that the “regressed” IQ becomes equal to the mean of the race. Not only I, but many others who use that term in this debate, including Jensen, Rushton, et al. A more accurate term would be “regression TOWARD the mean,” as Jensen sometimes clarified. So, the claim is not that children of elite Africans should have the average IQ of their “race” or source population, but that it should regress TO or TOWARDS that, on average. Which means that children of elite blacks should have lower IQ on average than children of equally elite (equal IQ) whites. Similarly, children of elite black Africans should have significantly lower IQ than children of similarly elite black Americans. No, none of them will actually “regress” to the point of their source population IQ, but it is like different centers of gravity pulling them downwards, statistically speaking.

    My argument is that there does not seem to be much indication that children of black African elites — that is, even if we granted that these immigrants are really the elites of Africa — are having a huge disadvantage over children of elite native black Americans. It seems like quite the opposite, which is in direct contradiction to the prediction of the racial hypothesis, if the black Americans have the advantage of white genes. Above that, they seem to have increased numerical advantage when you increase cognitive selection, which should not happen if that lower “center of gravity” from which they hail is biologically rooted, as my opponents believe.

    Now you can respond to THAT argument, instead of responding to your own simplified version of it.

    • 回复: @RadicalCenter
    , @Bill
    , @Tyrion
    , @utu
  51. @Polymath

    It seems you confused the position of my opponent(s) on chess with my position. I am actually arguing against chess as the best or better measure for cognitive comparison. My example of Solomon in South Africa was not to show that my hypothesis is supported by chess (it is not), but to show that the opposite hypothesis is NOT supported by chess either, especially as you begin to exclude some of the obvious environmental confounds.

    If they were right that chess supports them, it would be in less professionalized chess environments like South Africa where the black-white gap would be even , as that should take it closer to a contest of raw natural intelligence. (See Spearman’s Hypothesis.)

    We see quite the opposite.

  52. res 说:
    @res

    Mystery solved. Here are the relevant details for Kenny Solomon’s Grandmaster title: http://en.chessbase.com/post/south-africa-s-first-grandmaster

    But under the new FIDE rule that awards the GM title directly to the winners of the continental chess championships he suddenly had a realistic chance of joining the elite club of grandmasters in a single – despite a rating of 2399, which usually is not enough to get the title. He seized the opportunity and in one tournament became South Africa’s first Grandmaster.

    Impressive (and convenient) that he managed to prevail over someone with an Elo rating 200 points higher. Ahmed Adly lost to someone with a rating more than 350 points lower than him. The odds of that being about 12% per http://www.bobnewell.net/nucleus/bnewell.php?itemid=279
    Solomon ended up winning the championship by the tie-break.

    Per this page the tie-break was head to head performance: https://africachess.net/kenny-solomon-wins-the-2014-african-individual-chess-championship/
    So Solomon defeated Adly who had an Elo rating 211 points higher (22% chance per the above site).

    But that wasn’t the end of how close run a thing this was: http://chesskzn.blogspot.com/2014/12/grandmaster-at-last.html

    There was some initial confusion as to whether Kenny had qualified for the GM title, as it was announced at the opening ceremony that the event had to be won outright to qualify for the title. FIDE has now confirmed that Kenny won the GM title, given that he had the better tie-breaks.

    This site has the Solomon vs. Adly game for anyone interested: https://www.chess.com/blog/Francy1998/kenny-solomon-south-africas1st-gm
    Can someone please help me understand what happened there? Did that game really end in 7 moves or am I failing to understand the game browser?

    What a story. Sometimes things just go your way.

    • 回复: @res
    , @Anatoly Karlin
  53. Wally 说:
    @Tiny Duck

    IOW,您投票支持希拉里。
    So who is having the fun at whose expense? *

    If we have ‘failed’ then I’d like to see your definition of success.
    Personally, I’m prospering in all ways.

    [更多]

    * see Reactions to Trump Victory, hilarious !!


    和:

  54. Wally 说:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    BTW:

    Anatoly Karlin censors on topic rebuttals to his posts at 乌兹网 that he does not agree with.

    Don’t confuse him with different opinions.

    [更多]

    前任。:
    He really loses it when his beloved ‘6M Jews, 5M others & gas chambers’, which he promotes in his work, is shown to be fraudulent.

    “ 6万犹太人,5万其他犹太人和毒气室”在科学上是不可能的欺诈行为。
    请参阅此处揭穿的“大屠杀”骗局:
    http://codoh.com
    没有名字的呼唤,在这里进行公平的竞争环境辩论:
    http://forum.codoh.com

  55. utu 说:
    @CanSpeccy

    But if anyone seriously believes that the human nervous system evolved to score highly on an IQ test, then I can tell you I don’t have any respect for their intelligence.

    Could you blame English culture for this? The same culture that according to Japanese study (fake news?) is responsible for ever 50% of most critical inventions? I am serious. Where do the creatures like Spearman, Lynn and Thompson come from? How do you spawn them in England? Is it something in the water? The way you take your tea?

    • 回复: @CanSpeccy
  56. Wally 说:
    @Chanda Chisala

    “… that I’m simply presenting the existence of a few high IQ black people as an argument against the racial hypothesis …”

    But that’s exactly what you are doing.

    Call it what you like.

  57. res 说:
    @res

    I wonder how Robert Gwaze feels about the timing of that rule change given that he won the African Championship in 2007: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_Chess_Championship
    and currently has a higher Elo rating than Kenny Solomon but is “only” an IM?
    https://chess-db.com/public/pinfo.jsp?id=11000228
    Gwaze also apparently won outright: http://chess-results.com/tnr7817.aspx?lan=1&art=1&wi=821

    Here is the Solomon vs. Adly game from 2014: http://www.chess-results.com/PartieSuche.aspx?lan=1&id=50023&tnr=154093&art=3
    They show the first 34 (not just 7) moves but then there is a “notation not clear” comment

    Much more detailed 2014 results: http://www.chess-results.com/tnr154093.aspx?lan=1&art=4&turdet=YES&flag=30&wi=984

  58. Santoculto 说:
    @CanSpeccy

    Remember that creativity and intelligence is basically the same thing.

    So “intelligence” is also totally dependent on culture that is a creative “redundant” invention.

    Creativity invent intelligence in the same way environment invent the type of intelligence to be prosperous there. Indeed human creativity replace with culture the direct role of environment to submit organisms to its demands, shaping them.

    • 回复: @Anon
    , @CanSpeccy
  59. @res

    Your South African table doesn’t (AFAICT) directly show that Kenny Solomon is a GM (if you disagree please point me to the exact place you see that information at that link).

    Look for the small ‘g’ under the title column. That doesn’t stand for “general intelligence”! 🙂

    IAB的人才外流数据位于 http://www.iab.de/en/daten/iab-brain-drain-data.aspx
    provides detailed data for immigrants by both source and destination country divided into three skill levels. That data clearly shows how selective immigration is (e.g. from Nigeria to the UK)…

    没那么快

    The fact that Nigerian and other Africans have more educated people in their migrant groups compared to other immigrants has been a well-known fact.

    However: your “side” has told us what the average IQ is for educated Africans. It is 85. Which is about a standard deviation from the mean. This 85 was Rushton’s report from “an elite university” in Africa.

    So, even if you have data showing that 100 percent of African immigrants have university degrees, that does not solve the condundrum I presented in the article you reference. How could these “elite” IQ 85 people produce children who were outperforming IQ 100 white children?

    This necessarily took the argument to another level. The claim from your side was now that the African immigrants are not just “selected”, they had to be super-selected. They had to be not the 85 IQ of university degree level; they had to be a standard deviation above the university graduates (or even more, depending on how you account for regression to the mean if their children are at least 100 IQ).

    Your source does not in any way prove this ridiculous claim of super-selection — the idea that the immigrants are at least 1 SD above a sample of 100 percent university graduates in IQ. But without that ridiculous claim, the hypothesis finds it hard to explain the presence of their high performing kids. So, most people on your side simply resign to the circular fallacy: they just had to be super-selected since that’s the only way our hypothesis survives!

    • 回复: @Afrosapiens
    , @res
  60. @Stan d Mute

    Beautifully put. No hatred, no “supremacism” in the sense of wanting to control or rule over other people, and hopefully no violence.

    Slavery was a moral and practical disaster both here in North America and in Africa. People can’t be expected to function well in societies and systems that were developed by and for people who are very different from them in material ways (including but not limited to some measures of measurable intelligence).

    Best to dis-entangle peacefully with no ill will, and compensate the descendants of slaves if need be to induce them to leave and give up the right to return.

  61. Anon • 免责声明 说:
    @Santoculto

    You don’t understand the article. I doubt you even read it. The point is that real world competitions are a better measure of intelligence than IQ tests and that, at the very least, the number of highly intelligent Africans on that basis is larger than what the statistically likely number would be if national IQ figures per Lynn were accurate. Thus, Lynn’s estimates might not be very accurate after all. They certainly have no correlation with national economic success.

    What funny about you is the extent to which you will compromise your supposed principles to be “right” in your estimation. You hate black people so in their case you accept that the genetic hypothesis is flawless; but you also hate Jews, so that very genetic hypothesis that shows Jews are smarter must be bogus.

    Maybe it’s the genetic hypothesis that’s wrong?

    • 回复: @MarkinLA
    , @Wally
    , @Phil
  62. @RaceRealist88

    Hi RR, are you saying that acquired traits or abilities can be passed to offspring by some mechanism other than genes? That’s contrary to my admittedly limited understanding.

    • 回复: @Santoculto
    , @RaceRealist88
  63. @Chanda Chisala

    Your tone is needlessly unpleasant and demeaning. If you can deign to communicate civilly only with people who share your expertise and knowledge, you can do that elsewhere. Shades of Razib Khan….

  64. LauraMR 说:
    @Lemurmaniac

    The basic problem is that of racial purity.

    Any relevant discussion of the topic of race must provide a proper account of admixture.

    Since there is no such account, talk of race is essentially inane.

  65. Yeah, this has been way insane given that nobody, Thompson too, has even given any statements that remotely sound like they know what they are talking about. Comparing performance of AI to humans, understanding combinatoric game theory (non-deterministic and PI vs non-PI games are huge distinctions) and so on is where to start. Also having any clue about other comparable games, competitions, etc. would help because Scrabble is possibly not in the top 100 non-physical sport games or competitions worldwide. All this effort to try to produce inflated estimates about Scrabble players is hilarious as the net effect of all this work helps conclusively establish reasonable bounds (even self-selected, self-reported elite Scrabble players don’t outperform median US college students from certain peer reviewed studies, kek)

    Anyway I suppose I should lay out the following sometime, so might as well be now. These are all much better estimates than the nonsense usually found on the net.

    Median IQ of various groups: (means rarely differ and only for some of the very small sample size groups)

    SMPY~ 130
    Perfect scorers on SAT, 1950~ 135-140
    Perfect scorers on SAT, 2000~ 135-140 (probably just slightly lower than above, but less variance)
    Intel science fair finalists~130

    Elite Poker Players~ 110-120
    Elite Scrabble Players~115
    Elite “generic shooter/fighting” videogame players~110 (use 110-120 as a standin for other random videogames)
    Elite Rubik’s Cube solvers (“Cubers”)~120-130 (most difficult to gather evidence here imo)
    Elite Starcraft Players~130 (BW obvs)
    Elite Go Players~120-130
    Elite Chess Players~130-140 (a bit depends on definitions and historical periods included)

    Ivy League university bachelor’s graduates~120
    Billionaires~120

    “IQology” suffers from very poor statistical and logical understanding when it tries to examine things on tails, granted standard assumptions about percentiles and normal distributions and so forth for IQ as a metric. If you start claiming every champion poker player is 180 IQ or whatever, many billionaires are 180, etc. you would actually run out 180 IQ people very very fast. Instead all sorts of these things are loosely correlated and even more poorly correlated on the tails, maybe people at least understand that poker, for instance, is a heavily luck-based event (and computers way outperform humans under certain circumstances anyway much as they have for a long time in other games and events)

    I’m probably forgetting some category or another but I think I covered most of the usual canards. Of course groups like mensa have always failed to understand Poisson distributions and made unjustified claims that are still in the popular consciousness but this new sort of wrong understanding of games and other outcomes is actually one of the most outrageously wrong claims I’ve ever seen on the Unz Review. And look at some of the other stuff published as articles!

    Of course in summary Chisala’s arguments boil down to “there exist a black man with, say, 115 IQ” which of course means absolutely nothing and is pointless. Getting the rest of this former picture right is a more interesting topic though.

    • 回复: @Anatoly Karlin
    , @res
    , @szopen
  66. @res

    Can someone please help me understand what happened there? Did that game really end in 7 moves or am I failing to understand the game browser?

    Just ran that game through Stockfish.

    The critical move was 5. … Ne4, after which White’s advantage went from zero to almost +4 (pawn equivalents). After White’s bishop took the Knight, Black could have gone back to almost even (+0.6) by Nxc3, which would have messed up White’s pawn structure, but he didn’t; in turn, White could have consolidated his +4 lead by Nxe4 (as an amateur I can see White developing an advantage by having two main pieces developed versus none for Black, but that’s where my very limited chess intuition ends). But here’s the thing… he didn’t, instead playing 7. Qb3, at which point White’s advantage went back to precisely +0. No discernible reason for the resignation!

    Very strange, very weak play for players at such a supposedly high level (memorized optimal play during the first 10-15 moves of the openings is expected at this sort of level).

    • 回复: @res
  67. Mr. XYZ 说:

    Chanda, I have a question–how would you respond to Anatoly Karlin’s suggestion that the “lack of a regression to the mean” among African immigrants to the West is simply due to the result of this regression being cancelled out by the Flynn Effect?

  68. @Chanda Chisala

    On an other thread, our friend res was about to prove that all of Nigeria’s IQ120+ population emigrated. Be careful, he has unbeatable and very logical arguments. LMAO.

    • 回复: @res
  69. Santoculto 说:
    @RadicalCenter

    Thank you for that!!

    I also don’t understand what he wrote.

  70. res 说:
    @Chanda Chisala

    Look for the small ‘g’ under the title column. That doesn’t stand for “general intelligence”! 🙂

    Thanks. That was too subtle for me given the lack of any explanatory text. I still think the profile page I linked makes a better reference to support your point.

    By the way, that was quite the story of how Kenny Solomon achieved his Grandmaster title. Don’t you agree? We don’t need any of those old standards (that 2500 Elo rating threshold is so 20th century) or rules announced before the tournament, do we?

    The fact that Nigerian and other Africans have more educated people in their migrant groups compared to other immigrants has been a well-known fact.

    Contrast that to: https://www.unz.com/article/closing-the-black-white-iq-gap-debate-part-2/#comment-1199865

    Whether there is high immigrant selection or not is an empirical quantitative question.
    ...
    Frost does not believe there is any high selection from Africa. Neither does Fuerst (from his research) or, apparently, Charles Murray (according to The Bell Curve), and others. Is it rational to be utterly disrespectful to an outsider for sharing that same opinion in his analysis?

    You seem to have changed your opinion on selective immigration a bit. It is good to have an open mind.

    However: your “side” has told us what the average IQ is for educated Africans.

    What is this your “side” business? Do NOT put words into my mouth.

    Your source does not in any way prove this ridiculous claim of super-selection — the idea that the immigrants are at least 1 SD above a sample of 100 percent university graduates in IQ.

    I repeat: Do NOT put words into my mouth. I said nothing about super-selection.

    That “ridiculous claim of super-selection” is a great strawman. Can you provide a reference to someone actually arguing that?

    If you actually want to engage with things I have said, feel free.

    To make this numerical (I don’t find terms like “high” or “super” all that meaningful), the brain drain data states that in the 5 year period for 2010 12.04% of high skill (tertiary education) Nigerians emigrated compared to 0.56% of medium skill and 0.11% of low skill Nigerians. A factor of 100 difference between the low and high skill emigration rates seems rather selective to me.

    To look at the data in a different way, let’s consider Nigerian men in the UK in 2010. We see 42106 high skill, 3406 medium skill, and 9326 low skill immigrants. So over 80% of Nigerian male immigrants in the UK in 2010 were high skill. Again, compared to Nigeria itself that shows significant selection.

    P.S. Please stop with the “your side” business. I have my own opinions. I am not the representative of a side.

    • 回复: @Chanda Chisala
  71. MarkinLA 说:
    @CanSpeccy

    On the assumption that human intelligence is an evolved characteristic that promotes reproductive success, it appears that IQ is a poor measure of the adaptive value of the human brain,

    IQ has nothing to do with it. When the white man came to the Americas and saw what he thought were savages who weren’t making good use of the land he displaced them and multiplied. Once he was guilt tripped about how he mistreated the savages he started to allow other savages from around the world to come in. He could just as easily have depopulated the entire continent of Africa and the Americans and filled it with white people. Pretending the first brainwashing over the latter has anything to do with IQ is ridiculous.

    • 回复: @CanSpeccy
  72. @Tiny Duck

    I keep forgetting that you’re not a satirist. Can you blame me.

    Regardless, I need to get back to my wife, my reasonably normal kids (who asked to learn German for their foreign language because it’s the language of “the people that we come from”), the business that I own, my nearly-paid off house in a nice area (which by everyone’s definition means almost no blacks and Hispanics) and my surprisingly large portfolio (which I earned myself) because we’re having friends over from dinner.

    But you’re right, it’s difficult for me to deal with my failure in life. Hard to look in the mirror sometimes. If I could only be more like the Tiny Mighty Duck! 😉

  73. @Krastos the Gluemaker

    If you start claiming every champion poker player is 180 IQ or whatever, many billionaires are 180, etc. you would actually run out 180 IQ people very very fast.

    This is correct. The correlation between chess skill and IQ is a modest r=0.35, so even the best chess player can only be expected to have an IQ around the 130-140 range (as you point out).

    • 回复: @res
    , @BB753
  74. Santoculto 说:

    Blacks are on avg much more verbally agile than whites and east Asians. If they increase their “intelligence”/cognition levels I bet that they will increase specially their verbal intelligence, just like a ashkenazim pattern because in terms of oral verbal agility and even certain verbal creative fluency they tend to outperform, just like a evolutionary products of intense social competition history namely among males. They are more mentalistic than mechanicistic while east Asians tend to have predominantly opposite profile.

    Maybe this African verbal advantage become strident among those with highest cognitive skills.

    Chanda may cannot talk about spatial/non-verbal skills among African blacks.

  75. Santoculto 说:

    Hip hop is another verbal agility that blacks tend to outperform other groups and express specific type of verbal agility of course.

  76. res 说:
    @Krastos the Gluemaker

    SMPY~ 130
    Perfect scorers on SAT, 1950~ 135-140
    Perfect scorers on SAT, 2000~ 135-140 (probably just slightly lower than above, but less variance)

    Those numbers demonstrate significant ignorance. The SMPY had multiple cohorts ranging from top 1% (a bit over 130 IQ) to top 0.01% (more like 160 IQ). Here is one of the many SMPY papers: https://my.vanderbilt.edu/smpy/files/2013/02/Top1in100001.pdf

    The 1995 SAT recentering changed the ceiling about 100 points (roughly 10 IQ points). The pre-1995 SAT ceiling was around IQ 160.

    • 回复: @Krastos the Gluemaker
  77. MarkinLA 说:
    @CanSpeccy

    First, creativity is largely dependent on culture, and the English had, by a series of chance historical developments, the culture most conducive to creative thought.

    There is no way to prove this. If intelligence can’t be pinned down, creativity is even harder. Now you can assume the British were more creative because they started the industrial revolution and seemingly had more industrial inventions but that hardly encompasses everything, especially when looking at the number of great French and German mathematicians compared to the British.

    Without intelligence creativity doesn’t get you much. All the crap “art” you see today comes from creative people who contribute exactly zilch to the advancement of society. In fact, many of them do more to screw society up (by being taken seriously) than they ever contribute. Nobody who can’t understand the outer edges of mathematics or physics is unlikely to advance those fields in a meaningful way.

  78. res 说:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Thanks! That is very interesting. Did you see my other link with more of the game (through move 34)? I looked at some of the end game (maybe moves 27-34) positions and there was some crazy stuff going on that is beyond my chess pay grade. I’m interested in any further thoughts you or other serious (more so than me anyway) chess players have on that game.

    Regarding the memorized opening thought, do you think one of them (which?) intentionally went off the opening book to prevent that?

  79. @Chanda Chisala

    昌达

    I have absolutely no clue whether you’re right or wrong in this debate, but maybe you can help me understand some things. I’ll agree that measuring IQ can be a tricky game and that to a degree, there are different types of intelligence. (Perhaps you don’t agree with that statement. Who knows.)

    The simple question that any person would ask when considering the IQ of sub-Saharan Africans (with the understanding that there are many different ethnic groups involved) is why have they achieved so little that relates to civilization? I realize that this sounds like an attack, but I ask it in sincerity. Relative to all other groups outside of Australian Aborigines, Sub-Saharan African engineering and scientific achievements are nearly non-existent.

    Even Nigerians accomplished very little before whites arrived and not much afterward.

    It’s difficult not to notice the dysfunction of nearly (all?) countries that are run by and inhabited by Africans and their diaspora – at least relative to white and NE Asian countries. (Yes, there are very small pockets of marginal success, but there’s also an Asian guy in the NBA.) South Africa is a marginal exception, but, obviously, whites continues to play a major role in that country.

    Now, there may very well be a good reason for this. However, Occam’s Razor says that it’s very likely lower average IQ and other behavioral traits that account for this lack of achievement. But, hey, something Occam is wrong.

    Maybe the idea of Africans having a 70 IQ is wrong, but it’s difficult to deny the inability of sub-Saharan Africans – even Nigerians – to maintain a modern economy and culture, much less create one.

    I’m honestly curious as to how you explain this. In particular, why have Nigerians not managed to create an enclave that functions as well as European or NE Asian societies?

    The accomplishments of sub-Saharan Africans – even Nigerians in Nigeria – just don’t fit what you’re saying. What am I missing?

  80. MarkinLA 说:
    @Anon

    The point is that real world competitions are a better measure of intelligence than IQ tests and that,

    They would be if they weren’t limited to some game where as one poster pointed out canned solutions can be cashed in memory. The IQ tests one takes have lots of components. You read a paragraph and have to come to some collusions. You rotate something in space and have to pick the correct view after the combination of the rotations. You have visual and numeric sequences that you have to pick the next one. There is no game anywhere that comes close to incorporating all these components. At there some missed? Most likely, figure out what to add and get rich.

    A better test might be to hand somebody a military survival manual and a knife and see how long somebody could survive. However, you can’t test millions of people that way.

    • 回复: @CanSpeccy
  81. MarkinLA 说:
    @MarkinLA

    我应该说:

    Somebody who can’t understand the outer edges of mathematics or physics is unlikely to advance those fields in a meaningful way.

    Obviously, I wasn’t an English major.

  82. @RadicalCenter

    “Hi RR, are you saying that acquired traits or abilities can be passed to offspring by some mechanism other than genes?”

    Yes. Heritable morphology can be passed with little to no genetic change in some vertebrates.

    Moreover, heritable morphological changes were seen to be capable of occurring abruptly with little or no genetic change, with involvement of the external environment, and in preferred directions. This paper discusses three examples of morphological motifs of vertebrate bodies and organs, the somites, the skeletons of the paired limbs, and musculoskeletal novelties distinctive to birds, for which evolutionary origination and transformation can be understood on the basis of the physiological and biophysical determinants of their development.

    https://www.researchgate.net/publication/262151448_Form_and_function_remixed_Developmental_physiology_in_the_evolution_of_vertebrate_body_plans

    And for the claims against the Modern Synthesis see:

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4048083/

    http://cyber.sci-hub.bz/MTAuMTExMy9leHBwaHlzaW9sLjIwMTIuMDcxMTM0/10.1113%40expphysiol.2012.071134.pdf

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3060581/

    http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/5284211

    I’ll go in depth later when I have access to a computer. For the record, stating that Modern Synthesis needs revision/replacing does not mean that one is a Creationist.

    I used to be against the idea of epigenetics, but now I think there’s something to it. I’m well aware of the critiques about it and I’ll get to that on my blog eventually.

    • 回复: @RaceRealist88
    , @Santoculto
  83. Santoculto 说:
    @MarkinLA

    I agree that just originality it’s not enough but just “intelligence” it’s not enough. Think about every thing we have. Nothing of this things were invented without creativity included this words we are using. Without creativity intelligence or what we usually denominate as “intelligence” is nothing specially for human levels. Creativity is the force that made or invent humanity and civilization to their well being or not.

  84. @RaceRealist88

    Further, in the example I gave, it’s not traits or acquired characters, it’s the intelligent system responding to the changeability of the environment.

    Systems biology is the next big thing in my opinion.

  85. TWS 说:

    Really and truly the last word? I can’t be the only one thinking this, “Thank God.”

  86. res 说:
    @Afrosapiens

    If you were paying attention you might have noticed that Chanda had kinder words about my arguments than you do. And nowhere have I claimed all of the +120 IQ population emigrated. The claim at hand (as seen elsewhere in this thread and substantiated by the brain drain data) is that 12% of high skill Nigerians emigrated in the 5 year period for 2010.

    P.S. I understand you better now. You have refuted all of my arguments as restated by you. Rather different from refuting my actual arguments.

    • 回复: @Afrosapiens
  87. res 说:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    In discussions like this it is important to remember how quickly the normal distribution falls off at the tails. If any skills other than IQ are important then the ~5x population advantage of +2 SD over +3 SD or ~200x (!) population advantage of +2 SD over +4 SD is likely to overwhelm the advantage conferred by the extra IQ.

  88. Stealth 说:
    @Stan d Mute

    Speaking of Tiny Duck, even if the guy’s material is just satire, I wish they would start filtering his comments. It gets old.

  89. @Citizen of a Silly Country

    The consensus on the history of “civilization” is that it’s a function of population density. It might be tempting to see things in terms of quality, but it’s actually all about quantity.

    Civilizations (mostly materialized by a rich material culture exemplified by monumental architecture and large urban centers) rely on various factors that favor high population densities. Low disease load, fertile soil, temperate climate, a terrain that limits population sprawl…

    Africa has the highest prevalence of endemic disease due to her climate(s), soils tend to be poor, climatic conditions are extreme, it’s a large flat landmass where population can’t congregate in narrow valleys or peninsulas. On top of that, more than 1000 years of slave trade have either depopulated or stunted demographic growth.

    Although I wouldn’t say that there’s nothing that comes close to the concept of civilization in the history of Africa, it’s a big mistake to compare it to Europe when the only similar environments are pre-colonial Brazil and Australia. Out of the tropics, pre-colonial Canada, USA, Argentina and Siberia have similar geographic characteristics and much less historical development.

    As for the performance of black-run countries in contemporary times, I think most black countries in the Caribbean do better than world average. Whereas Sub-Saharan Africa, seeing how far it has come from is in a understandable situation and compares well with South and South-East Asia.

  90. Triumph104 说:
    @TelfoedJohn

    That is incorrect. Scrabble winners tend to have a mathematical background. Chanda went into this in detail in his first Scrabble article. (LINK)

    I later found out that the only American to reach the finals of the Spanish World Scrabble Championship, Héctor Klíe, has a PhD from Rice University in computational science and engineering.

  91. Stealth 说:

    Scrabble? This is absurd. I can’t believe y’all are wasting your time writing long comments on this article.

  92. BB753 说:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    What about scrabble or checkers? I suppose the correlation is even lower.
    (I asked Chandra Chisala about this but he hasn’t replied yet).

  93. @utu

    Where do the creatures like Spearman, Lynn and Thompson come from?

    LOL

    I’ll leave the specific individuals out of it since I know essentially nothing about Spearman or Lynn, and James Thompson seems a decent enough guy.

    But the great days of English culture are long gone. I saw some of the last of it as an undergraduate in the early 60’s: I learned intermediate metabolism from Hans Kornberg, the lead author of the paper that won Krebs the Nobel prize for the Krebs cycle. We didn’t just do pathways and mechanisms, we learned how the scheme was discovered and then did a number of the critical experiments in the labs with Kornberg in attendance. At lunch times one could chop logic over a beer with the head of the Department of Philosophy. In my own department, every faculty member’s door was open to undergraduates seeking an impromptu tutorial. Those were the days when C.S. Lewis at Oxford spent more than 20 hours a week tutoring students in Eng. Lit.

    Nowadays, youngster attending either Oxfraud or Scambridge have, so I understand from younger relatives, no contact with anyone of note. If you really want to know where English culture is today, read the Daily Mail!

    • 回复: @utu
    , @CanSpeccy
  94. @res

    Contrast that to…

    I have not changed my mind at all. I do not believe there is *高的* selection on INTELLIGENCE. From my very first article I already did mention that some African immigrant groups have more educated people compared to other immigrant groups. But that’s not necessarily high selection on intelligence, especially for a continent with very few opportunities for education. Some people have had better opportunities simply because they were born in a place where some mineral was found, for example, and a foreign mining company decided to provide some education for its local workers children (that’s basically this author’s humble story!).

    I repeat: Do NOT put words into my mouth. I said nothing about super-selection.

    That “ridiculous claim of super-selection” is a great strawman. Can you provide a reference to someone actually arguing that?

    Look. Firstly, I have no time arguing against everyone, including people who do not actually hold the positions I am arguing against. If you do not believe that African IQ is 70 or thereabout, then I do not have any argument with you at this point. If you do not agree with the same body of literature and the research held by other racial hereditarians that came up with these numbers — which *包括* their findings on university student IQ — then my argument is not with you. (And I put “your” in scare quotes precisely because I obviously didn’t mean it literally, which means I was not putting those words in your mouth.)

    Secondly, if you are not making the argument that the African immigrants had to have been “super-selected,” (or *高度* selected) then my argument is not with you and I’m not going to start copy-pasting all the people who have claimed that African immigrant IQ had to have been +2SD selected or more, including some columnists writing in this very thread.

    In short, you have to logically make the argument that there was that super-selection to UK (or whatever superlative you want to use for such extremely high selection) if you also believe that average IQ of Africa is 70.

    If you now believe, like Szopen, that it’s actually closer to 85 or 90, then that’s a different discussion with its own problems that I’m not prepared to go deep into since you will have to reject a lot of other positions held by fellow racial hereditarians to say that (eg many such hereditarians, including Lynn, accept that as much as 10 to 15 IQ points depression in Africa is due to environmental causes; are you prepared to believe that this means that your 85 IQ for Africa needs to be corrected for 10-15 IQ points? You may say “no” because that puts it at white IQ levels, genotypically, which I suspect you’re not willing to accept, so you’ll reject the 10-15 IQ environmental factor. You would also have to reject the IQ advantage of black Americans due to their white admixture. Etc. See why it’s hard for me to conduct too many arguments at the same time against people with their own individual versions of racial hereditarianism? One job at a time.)

    • 回复: @Afrosapiens
  95. Santoculto 说:
    @RaceRealist88

    I don’t think this dismiss entirely “Darwinian gradualism” as if the only way that happen is via “non-genetic”. This seems a exception or whatever, very common but not the only way or that gradualism is just wrong.

    This organisms must be analyzed at long term. Maybe this non genetic changes have unknown antecedents even because it’s create the idea that abrupt phenotypical changes can happen without a previous logical explanation. And “all genes” were “compared”??? Or just the correlated ones?? (yes I don’t know exactly what I’m talking but I’m like that, patience!!)

    • 回复: @RaceRealist88
  96. Triumph104 说:

    One of the reasons Thompson gives for thinking chess would be a better proxy for cognitive comparison is that it appears to be more complex than Scrabble,

    None of the living American female chess grandmasters and international were born in the United States. They were all born in Eastern Europe. The cultural values of these American-Eastern Europeans is what sets them apart from American-born women, not their IQ. Americans, women especially, simply don’t value competing in high level chess. (Based on population, the country of Georgia appears to have the highest percentage of female chess grandmasters and international masters.)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_female_chess_players

  97. utu 说:
    @CanSpeccy

    If you really want to know where English culture is today, read the Daily Mail!

    I do read it. I know it is the tabloid rug but it is the best tabloid rug. Recently for 9/11 anniversary they had this amazing article:

    不会消失的阴谋:9/11 受害者的兄弟声称美国策划了暴行,因为新的研究表明第三座塔楼不可能从火中倒塌

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4867124/9-11-conspiracy-theories-persist-16-years-atrocity.html#ixzz4sc1pFzfx

    This made me revisit the issue of why the anthrax letter was sent to the National Enquirer in 2001. Perhaps tabloid rugs must be reminded of their duties to keep the narrative going. NYT and WaP0 did not need to be reminded of their duties by anthrax letters. Mohamed Atta allegedly trained at the airport in town where National Enquirer had its headquarter, so sure they had some juicy stories about Atta fit to print in the rug like National Enquirer but that could spoil the narrative.

    Don’t you think that the IQ business is very English endeavor? That’s why I asked about the water. Germans were nowhere near the level of Brits in this enterprises.

    • 回复: @CanSpeccy
  98. @Chanda Chisala

    What do you think about that, Chanda? And what analogy would you make with IQ testing?

    The Untapped Math Skills of Working Children in India:
    Evidence, Possible Explanations, and Implications

    It has been widely documented that many children in India lack basic arithmetic skills, as measured by their capacity to solve subtraction and division problems. We surveyed children working in informal markets in Kolkata, West Bengal, and confirmed that most were unable to solve arithmetic problems as typically presented in school. However, we also found that they were able to perform similar operations when framed as market transactions. This discrepancy was not explained by children’s ability to memorize prices and quantities in market transactions, assistance from others at their shops, reliance on calculation aids, or reading and writing skills. In fact, many children could solve hypothetical transactions of goods that they did not sell. Our results suggest that these children have arithmetic skills that are untapped by the school system

    https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5990cfd52994ca797742fae9/t/59a896aee6f2e11b76983238/1504220847338/Banerjee+et+al.+2017+-+2017-08-17.pdf

  99. utu 说:
    @Citizen of a Silly Country

    I’ll agree that measuring IQ can be a tricky game

    This a perfect example of semantic confusion by which they get you. In general measuring something that does not exist because it was not defined is really very tricky. IQ does not exist. Only IQ test scores do. IQ test score measure themselves pretty well. Actually with 100% accuracy so it is not really tricky. Pointless perhaps.

  100. @CanSpeccy

    One reason, perhaps the most important, for the decline in Britain’s culture of creativity was the emergence of a democratic communism under the amiable but misguided leadership if men like Atlee and Wilson. They believed that Britain had a vast resource of untapped talent among those classes of people that had, until that time, gone into the workforce directly from secondary school, often in their early teens. These were the people unkindly referred to by the novelist Kingsley Amis as the great tapped untalent.

    In fact, the problem was not primarily a lack of talent among those of the lower social classes who began to enter the university in large numbers, but a lack of qualified people to teach them. University expansion meant a huge expansion in graduate education, which attracted all sorts of academic charlatans and megalomaniacs willing to hire almost anyone with a pair of hands to fill the research labs that the government was then so ready to fund. I went through graduate school as part of the first wave of expansion of post-graduate education and saw the utter futility of most of it. The result was that many of the new crop of university professors were neither particularly bright, nor sincerely scholarly in mentality. Indeed many were completely useless, although that didn’t stop some of them becoming full professors or even department heads by the age of 30.

    The consequence for the expanded intake of undergraduates was a severe dilution in the quality of education, the process of deterioration continuing to this day when it is beginning to dawn on most people that a university education ain’t worth the paper that the certificate of graduation is written upon. That’s not because Brits, or North Americans for that matter, are any dopier than before, but because they are not taught as their predecessors were taught. Hence the end of a great civilization.

    • 回复: @utu
  101. Jm8 说:
    @Citizen of a Silly Country

    Some civilizational and proto-civilizational developments did occur in many parts of subsaharan Africa. Regarding some below (especially re: West Africa):

    City states, chiefdoms, and kingdoms were not uncommon and began to from from arround 1,000-1500 bc 2000 in some places—sometimes/othere later as well i.e. late antiquity-medieval— (the roots of them likely earlier in cultures such as the Nok culture (known for its—often—hollow terracottas of various sizes—the culture dated to 1500 bc at its eariest phase-ca. 200 ad at its latest) of Central Nigeria and Dhar Tichitt/Dhar Walata in the S.E Mauritania/Mali region,
    Some of these more advanced cultures often concentrating arround Ghana, Mali parts of Cameroon (esp. the grasslands area the kingdoms of the Bamileke, Bamoum, Bafut, and Bafut), and Nigeria—some of these regions benefitting from their closeness to the niger, a long navigable river, somewhat like the nile and some other rivers/waterways on earth near which more advanced cultures often—form (the Ashanti empire in in Ghana; the Nigerian Yoruba city states of Ijebu—the site of the early Yoruba fortification, Sungo’s Eredo—, Owo, and Ife; the kingdom of Benin of the Edo/Bini people; the Hausa and Kanuri states which have ancient roots in the Gajinanna/Zilum and Sao cultures of the lake Chad basin; the early polities of the S. E Nigerian Igbo (like Igbo Ukwu, but its decorative bronzes)—many of these cultures known for their high quality court arts and ancient earthen city walls and moats and beginning arround the early-mid Middle ages, but often with more ancent roots), the early polities of the Mali/Senegal region (pre Islam)—staring with the stone-walled chiefdoms of Dhar Tichitt S.E Mauritania/Mali from ca. 17,000 bc-500 bc (then inhabited by black Mande/Soninke speaking agropastoralists and prior to the migrations of Berbers centuries later), the city states of the niger river such as Jenne Jeno and Dia Shoma (known by archaeologists for their terracottas as well which would later form part of the foundation of the Empires of Ghana and Mali.
    A system of ideographic writing (similar in principle to Chinese) developed in the southeast corner of Nigeria, at least by 400 ad, but possibly earlier (There has tended to be less archaeological research in Africa than in many other regions—up till now) called Nsibidi. It may have started among the (ancestral) Ejagham or Efik, but spread to other groups in the region, including some nearby Igbo subgroups (and many other neighboring tribes there and immediate parts of Cameroon).

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nsibidi
    “Iconography and Continuity in West Africa: Calabar Terracottas and the Arts of the Cross River Region of Nigeria/Cameroon (PDF)”

    http://www.kingdomofbenin.com/the-benin-moat.html

    http://historum.com/middle-eastern-african-history/58840-diversity-early-african-architecture-ruins-thread-2.html

    http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showthread.php/40992-African-art-amp-architecture-in-pre-colonial-times

    There is evidence of an independant invention of iron metallurgy (probably centrered arround Nigeria)
    Very recent research at Nsukka in Igboland finds very early dates or ca. 2000 BC.

    http://www.academia.edu/4103707/Iron_and_its_influence_on_the_prehistoric_site_of_Lejja

    The scholars studying the Nok culture of central Nigeria (most recently, in the last few years), Peter Breunig and his German research team, believe its iron metallurgy is part of an independant local tradition. Its oldest confirmed iron dates are about 500-700 bc. The culture itself goes back to about 1500-1200 bc and older iron dates (by several centuries in that specific region of Nigeria) )are suspected by Breunig based on indirect evidence but not yet confirmed.
    (some of the most reports/articles are a bit obscure— some information initially only in German— but much can be searchedonline)

    https://books.google.com/books?id=BBn1BQAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=Nok+culture+context&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEw
    jr84mK4vbNAhVFpB4KHe2qB1cQ6AEIHDAA#v=onepage&q=Nok%20culture%20context&f=false

    Dates from some Central African sites begin by about 800 bc (the Gabon and the Uganda regions I think), but I think these may still be inconclusive/controversial.
    There were also smaller polities in parts of Central Africa (Kongo, Kuba). In East Central Africa specifically (Buganda, Rwanda, Buhaya), the metallurgy by the Urewe period of the Uganda region (the urewe are the early eastern Bantu, ancestral to many Bantu speaking cultures of South and East Africa, having derived from the proto-Bantu originating arround the Congo) was relatively advanced. Steel was created in Western Tanzania (near Uganda) arround 300-100 bc.
    (work of Peter R. Schmidt)
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haya_people#Archeological_discoveries

    The South Eastern Bantu tribes of Southern Africa created small proto-feudal states (often with stone walls and fortifications for elites) like Mapungubwe, Bamandyanalo, Great Zimbabwe, Khami, and Thulamela.

  102. Okechukwu 说:

    昌达

    You’re casting pearls at swine here. These people are hardcore dead-enders. Literally, many of them would rather jump from a tall building than concede that their pretensions to supremacy are based on pure rubbish.

    But your work has found its way to more rational, more thoughtful, more enlightened and (dare I say) more intelligent people. I often see your articles linked and referenced in atmospheres not filled with brainwashed cultists. Your work has been well-received and has gone a long way to knocking down the frail house of cards these people will tend to erect.

    Great work. It’s very much appreciated.

    • 回复: @Santoculto
    , @Stealth
  103. @utu

    Don’t you think that the IQ business is very English endeavor?

    Um, well mostly I comment here in the hope that through interaction with others I will gain some insight into what seems a very strange branch of science, so I’m not well qualified to judge the English role in the emergence of IQ research. But I can see that after Britain passed its apogee at about the time of Victoria’s Jubilee, and entered a period of obviously reduced importance following WW1, there would have been a tendency for the Brits to seek reassurance as to their own importance and general superiority, something which a paper and pencil test of intelligence might just reveal.

    At the same time, the Brits were obsessed with the fact that while the flower of the nation’s manpower had been destroyed by the criminal stupidity of WW1, the crocks, shirkers and mental incompetents were reproducing the race. This led to much agitation about the need for a eugenics programme, involving even, as the Anglo-Irish playwright Bernard Shaw urged, lethal gas chambers for the unproductive. In that context, a test to determine who was mentally fit to live must have seemed a good idea. Equally, it provided a means of screening the lower orders to see who was worthy of a place in a half-decent publicly funded grammar school, hence the 11-plus. So yes, I can see that the IQ business may have appealed quite strongly to some among the British elite.

    And yes, a plausible theory about the otherwise seemingly pointless anthrax letters.

    Thanks for the link to the DM article. Covers much of the ground and leaves little room to doubt that Dubya and co. should be tried for treason. But then one would have to say the same about most other national leaders including Justin Trudeau, who declared to the “纽约时报” that Canada is not a nation, and Tony Blair, war criminal and, like so many other Western leaders, a stooge of the globalist elite.

  104. @MarkinLA

    Once he [the white man] was guilt tripped about how he mistreated the savages he started to allow other savages from around the world to come in. He could just as easily have depopulated the entire continent of Africa and the Americans and filled it with white people.

    “He could just as easily …” But he didn’t. Not very intelligent really. Consider the Brits in East Africa. They thought they could hold the place with a few gentlemen farmers who no doubt practised birth control in their very superior European way, while they introduced European agricultural techniques that vastly increased the carrying capacity of the land. Thus, as the white farmers were complacently sipping gin and tonic the natives were busy outbreeding them. The result, white African empire defunct.

    The Europeans repeated such stupidity over and over again, as they are doing now in their own homelands. If you think this has nothing to do with intelligence, what precisely do you think the adaptive function of a brain is?

    • 回复: @MarkinLA
  105. @Santoculto

    So “intelligence” is also totally dependent on culture that is a creative “redundant” invention.

    I wouldn’t say that. Some people are obviously more creative than others. But culture determines whether creativity will flourish.

  106. @MarkinLA

    Nobody who can’t understand the outer edges of mathematics or physics is unlikely to advance those fields in a meaningful way.

    All you’re saying is that there is a threshold effect of intelligence for creativity in certain fields. But that in no way proves that intelligence determines creativity, it is merely that a certain amount of intelligence is a prerequisite for the display of certain kinds of creativity, although the threshold effect may not be measurable with an IQ test. For example, the musical or mathematical savant with an IQ below that of a gamma minus moron is nevertheless a genius in what they are gifted at doing.

    • 回复: @MarkinLA
  107. @MarkinLA

    A better test might be to hand somebody a military survival manual and a knife and see how long somebody could survive. However, you can’t test millions of people that way.

    Actually, that is exactly how our ancestors were tested. Not all of them, but some of them in every line of descent.

  108. Okechukwu 说:

    The selection bias argument to explain the success of Africans in the US is another theory that can’t withstand even more scrutiny. There is a selection bias in immigration only insofar as it selects for people with sponsors in the United States. It doesn’t select for anything else, including intelligence or IQ or whatever. The United States doesn’t care if the prospective immigrant is a genius or an imbecile. If the imbecile is the one that has a sponsor that can help him and is able to provide some surety of financial support, he’s much more likely than the genius to be allowed to immigrate.

    To give you an example, my fiancée is a young, white German woman who is a PhD candidate in molecular biology with an emphasis on cancer research. She’s everything you would think immigration is looking for. But they don’t seem to want her. They interrogate her aggressively every time she comes here seemingly to dissuade her from ever showing up again. And to get her status changed to permanent resident has been an ongoing struggle of epic proportions. We’re using an immigration attorney, and it’s still a hellish experience.

    Most European scientists would like to live and work in the United States because this country is the epicenter of scientific research. Added to which, the English language is the language of scientific research. Just to give you an idea of how powerful English is in science, my fiancée is doing her doctoral thesis in English even though it’s going to be submitted to a German university. The point is, these brilliant scientists cannot immigrate to the United States. Deans of universities can write letters for them. Scientific research centers can vouch for them. They can even have a job waiting for them in important scientific fields. But none of it matters. They simply can’t immigrate here. They’re not wanted because they don’t have viable and credible sponsors.

    • 回复: @res
    , @Tyrion
  109. Jm8 说:
    @Citizen of a Silly Country

    Apparently the “Historum” link I posted had some dead images (though with also a few good ones).
    (and the other “forumbiodiversity” link—whose images are all good/fine and visible—of my previous post, includes many both art and architecture images from various of the aforementioned African cultures; incl. Ife, Benin, Igbo Ukwu ,etc):

    Some of the same images, originally there, below (and others I should have included).

    http://historum.com/middle-eastern-african-history/67141-african-architecture-ashanti-very-particular.html

    first below: some architecture of several of the Cameroonian kingdoms’ (Bamileke, Bandjoun, Bamoum, Bafut, etc), below past the first few Nubian images at the top):

    http://historum.com/middle-eastern-african-history/58840-diversity-early-african-architecture-ruins-thread-16.html

    http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showthread.php/40992-African-art-amp-architecture-in-pre-colonial-times



    http://www.beprimitive.com/stories-descriptions/nok-terra-cotta

    • 回复: @Jm8
  110. Jm8 说:
    @Jm8

    Edit (to second post) : “Some of the same images, originally there, below (and others I should have included in by first somewhat long post to you, which is now further, several posts, above)”

  111. Wally 说:
    @Anon

    Spoken like a redneck Zionist Jew who hates white gentiles, hence you promote the fake ‘6M Jews’ nonsense.

    • 回复: @Anon
  112. res 说:
    @Okechukwu

    The selection bias argument to explain the success of Africans in the US is another theory that can’t withstand even more scrutiny. There is a selection bias in immigration only insofar as it selects for people with sponsors in the United States. It doesn’t select for anything else, including intelligence or IQ or whatever.

    From the brain drain data linked above. In 2010 of the Nigerian men in the US we have 79943 in the high skill group (tertiary education), 9632 in the medium skill group, and 1786 in the low skill group.

    Looks selective to me. I think it is your argument which does not withstand actual data.

    • 回复: @Okechukwu
  113. @Citizen of a Silly Country

    The simple question that any person would ask when considering the IQ of sub-Saharan Africans (with the understanding that there are many different ethnic groups involved) is why have they achieved so little that relates to civilization?

    Every group that has been isolated from other people of the world for a long time has always lagged behind. All “civilizations” were built by borrowing quite heavily from others that they met as they traveled around, in trade or conflict. Africa was segregated from everyone else by a uniquely harsh geography (hence its “ancient” name – “the Dark Continent” — that wasn’t a reference to skin color!) plus many tropical diseases that kept others away. Above that, the difficult geography and environment even kept African tribes mostly secluded from each other (thus, Zambia alone has more than 70 languages that I can’t understand at all, although it has less than 20 million people!). Relative to human history, the interaction that Africa has had with other people is still very recent, very brief, relatively superficial, and the vast majority still really haven’t had even that little contact.

    I get all this from Thomas Sowell and I haven’t seen any good argument against it. See his trilogy that includes “Conquests and Cultures” etc.

  114. Bill 说:
    @Chanda Chisala

    Either you have failed utterly to understand Tyrion’s point, or you are extraordinarily dishonest. Really poor performance.

  115. Tyrion 说:
    @Chanda Chisala

    Nothing in your post contradicts mine, except as to say that both Rushton and Jensen made a similar error to you, which my post was entirely open to the possibility of.

    Lumping all black Africans together as a population has some uses. But not really all that many. Expecting an Igbo child to regress towards the African mean makes as much sense as expecting an Ashkenazi child to regress towards the human mean. Or perhaps worse, expecting a member of Darwin’s direct family to regress towards the human mean.

    Furthermore, comparing Black Americans as a group with Black Africans as a group you are not comparing like group with like. By lumping Black Africans together you are expecting group statistical effects for them which you have no basis for expecting.

    Now you can respond to THAT argument, instead of responding to your own simplified version of it.

    锅遇水壶。

    • 回复: @utu
    , @Chanda Chisala
  116. Bill 说:
    @szopen

    His arguments are wrong if the distribution isn’t normal.

    It is unfortunate that so many psychometricians have bell curves on the brain. And their internet followers are even worse, on average.

    • 回复: @szopen
  117. utu 说:
    @CanSpeccy

    The result was that many of the new crop of university professors were neither particularly bright, nor sincerely scholarly in mentality.

    That’s not because Brits, or North Americans for that matter, are any dopier than before, but because they are not taught as their predecessors were taught.

    It all comes down to culture and the interaction on the quantity-quality divide.

  118. Tyrion 说:
    @Jm8

    I think some of this was discussed earlier. The evidence indicates that the children of above average African Americans (above average African American families) score (seeming to “regress”) toward a lower mean. But those of Africans do not.

    You are expecting that observation to do a lot of heavy lifting without much justification.

    Why should the group ‘Recent Black African migrants to the US’ follow the exact same statistical rules as the group ‘Mostly Black descendants of African slaves in the US’?

    Furthermore, I don’t believe that Black American (Mostly Black descendants of African slaves in the US) children do particularly regress towards some Black American mean. The whole concept is fuzzy. After all, group mean IQs do change. A group may have eugenic pressures exerted on it.

    Were one to kill the bottom half in intelligence of a group, would you still expect the surviving top half to regress towards the previous mean?

    Are you now going to hide in the word ‘towards’ by meaning merely ‘in the direction of’? And therefore only offer featherlight explanatory power in the same way that by walking from London to Paris you also happen to be walking ‘towards’ Beijing?

    • 回复: @res
  119. Bill 说:
    @MarkinLA

    Is Maya Lin really a creative person? I doubt.

  120. utu 说:
    @Tyrion

    His point is that if Africans in the US are part of African elites their children according to the regression to the mean (who care which mean) will have lower IQ than their parents because their parents as members of elites were above the mean. Yet these children outperform African American children who have 20-25% white admixture.

    If Africans in the US are not part of African elites and their children outperform African American children then explaining this is even more difficult within the realm of Richard Lynn’s creation.

    • 回复: @Jm8
    , @Tyrion
  121. Tyrion 说:
    @Chanda Chisala

    Africa was segregated from everyone else by a uniquely harsh geography

    If you want to find a non-genetic explanation for why circa 1600AD black Africans were considerably less sophisticated than the Egyptians under Chephren 4000 years previous, then I suggest you find something a bit stronger than being somewhat isolated by a desert.

    After all, there was rather a lot more contact between Nubia and Ancient Egypt than there was between Ancient Egypt and Japan.

    Not to say that the Sahara was unstifling but plenty of places were hard to get to, and judging by the transmission of Buddhism across the Himalayas to China, it does not need to be easy. There were true trans-Saharan Empires. The idea of a true trans-Himlayan Empire is absurd.

    You should look instead into the Bantu expansions and their relative newness as a set of peoples. After all, by 1600AD Bantu-derived peoples had only just finished expanding throughout Sub-Saharan Africa.

    If necessity is the mother of all invention, then your forebears weren’t really pushed.

  122. Jm8 说:
    @utu

    “His point is that if Africans in the US are part of African elites their children according to the regression to the mean (who care which mean) will have lower IQ than their parents because their parents as members of elites were above the mean. Yet these children outperform African American children who have 20-25% white admixture.”

    Also that they show signs of performing above the immigrant generation (and performing above the white mean, at least in the UK, and at least not below it in the US).

    “If Africans in the US are not part of African elites and their children outperform African American children then…”

    Including African American children who are of more elite parents (as explained in my quote from Chisala’s earlier article).

    • 回复: @Jm8
    , @utu
  123. Jm8 说:
    @Jm8

    Edit: “Also that they show signs of performing above the immigrant generation (and performing above the white mean—certain ethnic/subgroups of them at least—, at least in the UK, and at least not below it in the US).”

  124. szopen 说:
    @Bill

    Yes, if the IQ distribution has fat tail – but this would have to be very fat tail for Gabon.

    But gaussian distribution is very reasonable assumption. IQ is influenced by hundreds of factors, which can be treated as random variables. Now, tell me, what shape has a complex random variable built from hundreds of independent random variables?

    • 回复: @Bill
    , @Bill
  125. szopen 说:
    @DFH

    All right, except that “all previous IQ research” seems to indicate that Nigerian IQ is higher that the one included in Lynn. Read the Wicherts et al piece I have linked.

  126. Okechukwu 说:
    @res

    From the brain drain data linked above. In 2010 of the Nigerian men in the US we have 79943 in the high skill group (tertiary education), 9632 in the medium skill group, and 1786 in the low skill group.

    Looks selective to me. I think it is your argument which does not withstand actual data.

    Do you even understand what a brain drain is? Nigerians who obtain their education and credentials in the US or UK do not constitute a brain drain. A brain drain is when those already educated and practicing a high-skill profession leave a country.

    I’m a Nigerian. I have dozens of relatives in the US and UK. Almost all the adults are well-educated professionals. ALL OF THEM obtained their degrees and professional credentials in the US and UK. For each one of them innumerable other Nigerians could’ve done the same thing, given the opportunity.

    • 回复: @Tyrion
    , @res
  127. Tyrion 说:
    @utu

    I understand his point. It just contains a bunch of unfounded assertions. I am at a loss as to how to point this out in a more digestible manner. I will try for the fourth time. You can read any of my previous three efforts and they all mean the same thing, but expressed in different ways. They also all more than answer your post here.

    让我再试一次:

    His point is that if Africans in the US are part of African elites their children according to the regression to the mean (who care which mean) will have lower IQ than their parents because their parents as members of elites were above the mean.

    Or they regress towards the mean for African elites. Or they regress towards the human mean. Or they regress towards the mean for non-Chinese. Or they regress towards the Gentile mean. Or they regress towards for the mean for people who are darker than a mocha coffee. Or those with curly hair. Or those not born in Svalbard.

    Yet these children outperform African American children who have 20-25% white admixture.

    And black Harvard grads have smarter children than Chinese peasants. So what?

    If Africans in the US are not part of African elites and their children outperform African American children then explaining this is even more difficult within the realm of Richard Lynn’s creation

    1. Africans in the U.S. clearly tend to come from the highest African achievers. Anyone familiar with them who denies this is plain lying. If Chanda asserts this then this conversation is over and I am blocking him. It would prove beyond all doubt that he is uninterested in dialectic. It would be akin to claiming that in-country income does not correlate to IQ.

    2. Only if we assume that the grouping ‘black American descendants of slaves’ is qualitatively the same as the grouping ‘recent black African immigrants to the US’.

    I see no reason to believe this and none is offered.

    • 回复: @utu
  128. matt 说:
    @szopen

    If Wicherts et al. are right that sub-Saharan IQ is ~80, then they’re only .33 SD away from adult African Americans. Given the massive environmental deficit that has to exist between adult African Americans and SS Africa, it’s unlikely that the ~20% Euro admixture in African Americans does them much good. If, as you yourself say might be the case, SSA IQ is as high as 85, then the hereditarian hypothesis is toast. A hypothesis of sub-Saharan African genetic superiority would be more tenable than one of European superiority.

    • 回复: @szopen
  129. szopen 说:
    @Krastos the Gluemaker

    No, Chanda’s argument does not boil down to this. Ignore for a moment the data abotu female representation at the top (or lack of it), just assume females are not at the toip because they do not care enough to play it.

    Think about Gabon, which managed to put SEVEN players in top competition, where they competed with whites too.

    Lynn postulated Gabon has IQ of 64.
    It is also postulated that blacks have lower SD than whites.

    That would means that roughly 0.013% of Gabon’s population is above IQ 115 for IQ 64 and SD even only so low as 14, and not 12 as postulated by some. With 12, it is 0,001%.

    Gabon is a small country, with a very young population. Meaning some half a million people eligible for the competition. That would mean that with normal distribution there would be FIVE people in Gabon with IQ above 115 with Lynn’s data, 40 with IQ 70 and SD 12, and 670 with IQ 70 and SD 15. Having a pool of people above 115 with size of about one thousand (give or take) and postulate even one percent of them decide to pursue careers in scrabble is not very reasonable.

    That’s why I wrote Lynn’s number are untenable.

  130. Tyrion 说:
    @Okechukwu

    Cool story bruh. Was anybody supposed to learn anything from your anecdote except that you are exceptionally proud to be marrying a white person?

    And she’s a really lucky girl to be marrying someone who primarily sees her that way…

    • 回复: @Okechukwu
  131. @Stan d Mute

    It’s actually somewhat interesting to see what has been thousands of hours of effort by the originators of this debate, Thompson, and various commenters, and the evidence they produce.

    Damning for the social sciences and their methodology (lol self-voluteering selection and low sample sizes), and hilarious for the Scrabble community, given all that work produced not a shred of evidence of particularly high IQ in the Scrabble community, but interesting. To me it’s been like something that was supposed to be a discussion about DNA where creationists showed up with a particular creationist meme (the laws of thermodynamics mean life couldn’t be possible, entropy rah rah) and straight up ignore what DNA is in the first place. Lack of domain expertise and discussion of game theory is killer; it’s definitely only been Karlin and other anon commenters who understood that in this whole saga.

    As an aside responding to Tiny Duck and some others, people really underestimate the diversity of viewpoints on this website; there are even plenty of leftists who comment on various authors’ blogs. Maybe take up pure economic class Orthodox Marxism as your next angle.

    I did remember one thing I wanted to mention sometime, which is that the Putnam exam is the only real exam worth considering in a NA context, and one of few if any others in the world, for ROC on actual high performers. In other words, of people who score high on the Putnam exam, the median IQ/g is probably something like 145. Nothing at the high school level comes close, reflecting self-sorting, time and effort, rich parents or private school tutors or equivalent factors.

    Maybe something like 3% of high IQ (eg 150 or some threshold like that) people born in America attending US universities ever participated in the Putnam exam, or whatever the true value is it’s an extremely high number in comparison. Other things have much much lower potential participation rates, well below 1%, partly because things like school acceleration directly interfere, or direct mutual exclusion between events and so on. Whenever a person with IQ 150 or whatever does participate in such things they might do well, but that’s not the median participant.

    Of course gaming and other various pursuits have even lower participation rates than anything is school. There are still tons of false positives and false negatives on various criteria that are loosely correlated with IQ everywhere or at the tails.

    Everybody knows all these things, or at least informed commenters around here do, even about things like the infamous Terman study that excluded future Nobel Prize winners.

    As far as Chisala’s main point, I actually personally agree more than most on a few things: estimates of average IQ of races could be highly distorted by bias and measurement problems and there are lesser differences than alt-rightists might think. However missing the concept of genotypic vs phenotypic IQ, not understanding selection biases, how immigration works, regression to the mean, all that is frustrating. Nothing contradicts the idea that some ethnicity of Africans has a genotypic IQ of say 85 (ie the genotypic IQ is not as low as the final reported measurements) or even that there are subgroups, upper class differences, etc. where a smaller population would be in the 90’s, while the observed (phenotypic) results of African IQ of course include the effects of environmental degradation. (and higher classes/immigrants to the first world/any group that misses out on environmental disadvantages simply doesn’t have those same effects)

  132. @RaceRealist88

    Why stupid rather than just arguably wrong if he means, as he probably does, that Africans are largely stuck with the alleles for cognitive ability (and maybe some unspecified qualities) that were present in similar proportions before the move of small numbers of homo sapiens out of Africa? His thesis is presumably that vital mutations for survival in Eurasia spread quickly in the small groups that survived before those populations grew large from narrow genetic bases as conditions improved whereas any such mutations had little chance of becoming common in African populations which were already large and in which no great selective advantage was provided in the absence of glaciers.

    • 回复: @RaceRealist88
  133. @res

    Apologies site-side if this comment was somehow duplicated

    No, I’m right.

    I know you’re a commenter worth responding to and this is a pernicious myth, so let’s see if I can be clear enough and I’ll edit this better than a usual drive by.

    Individual test sections of the SAT never had a ceiling above 130, could have been lower sometimes, and taking into account the Flynn effect and ses biases really old tests have other questionable issues too. Although there is some correlation with “grit” and IQ and ease of test-taking and so on such that total scores reflect a little higher; high scorers on all sections will be a little higher than a model of each section+pure random change.

    To think otherwise requires someone to literally not understand how multiple choice tests work, or more complicated concepts like Poisson distributions. Or most charitably, foreigners who don’t understand and have no experience with the SAT (or corresponding tests) because claims otherwise are crazy uninformed, the SAT ceiling really has been around 130 since forever, and of course correlation with g (or an actual instantiation of an IQ test score) is not even close to perfect.

    The IRT data really, really reflect this (also funny things like large proportions of students scoring below guessing percentages, at least on certain questions, but to be fair they are kids)

    Suppose something like an athletic quotient existed (AQ) and you got 10 million test subjects and wanted them to shoot basketballs.

    So, you put everybody on the OPPOSITE side of the court and have them shoot a basketball, awarding perfect scores to those who make the shot. You could award partial but lower scores for hitting the backboard or something but that’s not relevant to our hypothetical, just an analogy.

    Even in only 1 out of 7000 or something shooters do so, that does not mean that those who made the shot are the best basketball players in the sample or in the word, or that the AQ is correspondingly high. In percentile terms, they in that corresponding percentile of performance, but do not have an AQ of 150whatever. Rather, the people who made the shot would on the median be a group of someone like 130 AQ folks (healthy, relatively fit adult males) who just got lucky. Maybe zero 100 AQ people make the difficult basketball set shot, but that’s not our concern. Likewise, an actual professional basketball player with a lot of experience and training might have a slightly higher chance of making the random, difficult shot than the median 130 AQ subject, but then such subjects would be vanishingly rare.

    Now basketball throwing would seem random in this context even though it’s not “really truly random”, but the SAT is literally a multiple choice test with a huge probability of students semi-randomly guessing at MC questions, besides other forms of random variance (relative to trying to equate the test to g or something). If Student A answers 48 MC questions and randomly guesses at 2 and Student B does the same they can get different scores, raw or scaled.

    Brief interlude, but one thing a ton of people don’t understand is that changes in the SAT before the 1995 scoring changes also exist, and not just on the fake social justice issues like removing rare “classist” questions, but on actually changing the expected difficulty of the exam. Some of the only publicly available/peer-reviewed studies on the SAT in old timeframes like that discuss this. In other words, the most notable purposeful decline in “hard questions” occurred might have in the mid-1980s, at any rate there was such a change, while the nonlinear scoring change that happened later isn’t really the same thing, even though it’s what everybody cites.

    In our basketball analogy, this would be like giving also credit to shooters who also shot a ball that bounced out of the inside of the rim on a nonlinear scoring scale; but it changes very little about the “raw” data or the overall picture (It’s not that everybody perfect shot is literally by a 160 AQ subject)

    Realistically, because of the variance of multiple choice tests, and massive influences of things like that internet, the largest effects on tail-end changes in SAT scores are due to changes in test-taking behavior, like leaving multiple choice questions blank. In other words, it’s probable that many 1950s era (or whatever old timey period you choose) test takers did things like leave questions blank while post-Internet era moderners did not, and again, it’s mostly or entirely (depending on iteration and section) a multiple choice test so brute force random guessing will go a long way. (there are not that many “hard” questions, and well, one should know the statistical concepts in the prior paragraphs anyway, law of large numbers and all. Also, if the reason for different score distributions in the past was that students got “easy” questions wrong or something then that raises entirely different questions a la the Flynn effect and savvy people like us would have to puzzle that out ignoring old social scientists or nutty groups like mensa)

    I do think there was a bit of a deliberate effort, even before the third section introduction or other such changes, to make girls score higher relative to boys, in a smoky room IRT test designer choice sense, and that has some effects on test prep effectiveness or suchlike, but the SAT never had that high of ceilings.

    FWIW, there are some very important hypotheses to consider about the consequences of such statistics, but no public data is available and politically correct social science types wouldn’t want them to be. For instance, the small number of non-multiple choice math questions might present vastly different IRT results for smaller population subgroups (eg blacks) that are overlooked and themselves a potential concern for test unfairness (since students in bulk still randomly guess at MC questions, but the question would be what causes one black student to get a higher score than another on the margin, in a test fairness sense)

    Age related scaling of the SAT is even more unreliable and probably reflects things like family SES a lot. It’s actually ridiculous (and pathetic) that of social scientists who have studied groups of young children, to produce their data points they sometimes erroneously use things like a “Cognitive Age/Real Age” sort of calculation which of course is discredited pseudoscience. That was never valid for actual IQ tests anyway, but ignorant social scientists who aren’t even geneticists or involved in psychometrics still wind up with crazy old concepts in their published papers.

    I think in the end we’re mostly missing a little bit of understanding of measurement variance as well as median.

    Again, anyone who recalls the myths about someone like Feynman with low test scores or lack of Nobel Prizes won by random perfect test scorers should be conceptually familiar with this. It’s actually a real weak point of the general IQology internet field.

    Particularly elite groups (SMPY, science fairs) will contain some number, sometimes, of IQ 150, 160 types, but the median will often be right around the threshold/barely above it (or science fairs are even more randomly influenced by ses-like factors) and those who participated often get there with a good amount of help from random chance; there are plenty of 130 IQ people in the population who also missed cutoffs or thresholds on the “measurement.”

    • 回复: @utu
    , @res
  134. Santoculto 说:
    @Okechukwu

    Zombie mentally ill… Piriod. Only way seems killing them. Idiotic people is the most stubborn. They never learn.

    But with that nick name
    ..huummm

    Another CLEVER “igbo”???

  135. Tyrion 说:
    @Okechukwu

    I’m a Nigerian. I have dozens of relatives in the US and UK. Almost all the adults are well-educated professionals. ALL OF THEM obtained their degrees and professional credentials in the US and UK. For each one of them innumerable other Nigerians could’ve done the same thing, given the opportunity.

    Who do you think you are persuading?

    Most Nigerians don’t have flushing toilets at home. They are incapable of procuring them; so stop pretending that somehow most are capable of procuring transport to America and an American tertiary education.

    What is this influx of bold-faced lying Africans? All of your prose is fine so you’re clearly all intelligent and well-educated, so why the lying? Surely you must be smart enough to know that only an idiot would fall for the claim that African immigrants to America are cognitively average for Africa.

    • 同意: res
  136. Tyrion 说:

    昌达

    I was close to neutral on this point. Having now thought about it, at length, and considered your article, I have now swung quite strongly away from your position.

    这是因为:

    1. You and your supporters insist on pretending that African migrants to developed countries are representative of Africa as a whole. I say ‘pretending’ because every single fact points to the opposite. I cannot believe that any of you believe this.

    2. You rely on a false interpretation of regression to the mean and repeatedly ignore explanations of why it is a fantasy. In light of point 1, I have come to the conclusion that this too is purposeful.

    3. Your argument relies on silly games like Scrabble and Draughts. These are not much more cognitively demanding than dominoes. Some clown won the French world championship but couldn’t even speak French, which is impressive but also shows how undifferentiated the winners must be.

    Were you to pick Chess, Go, Nobel prizes, great inventions, civilizational achievments or, even better, actual IQ tests to prove your point then I would be very receptive. I know a lot of people from Africa. I like them very much. On the other hand, I recognise that all are most definitely in the top 1% in pretty much every socio-economic and cognitive measure in the countries they come from.

    • 回复: @res
  137. Bill 说:
    @szopen

    It’s not just tail fatness. A distribution you make, for example, by p-mixing other distributions doesn’t just have fat tails, it has lots of differences with a symmetric, uni-modal distribution like the normal.

    There is no reason at all to think that the normal is a good approximation to the distribution of any interesting characteristic in any population big enough to have sub-populations in it.

    We may form our intuition by thinking about well-mixed populations, but mother nature has no obligation to form her intuition that way.

    • 回复: @res
  138. Tyrion 说:
    @szopen

    Think about Gabon, which managed to put SEVEN players in top competition, where they competed with whites too.

    Definition of ‘trying to dig yourself out of a hole’

    =

    Trying to refute a mountain of evidence using the performance of seven Gabonese at a game where the key ‘top competition’ skill is rote learning…

    • 回复: @szopen
  139. utu 说:
    @Krastos the Gluemaker

    also funny things like large proportions of students scoring below guessing percentages, at least on certain questions, but to be fair they are kids

    This statement does not make much sense. Are you saying that adults when they know they do not know the answer they deploy personal portable random number generator in order to maximize the outcome as group? Besides often they do not know they do not know.

  140. utu 说:
    @Tyrion

    Or they regress towards the mean for African elites. Or they regress towards the human mean. Or they regress towards the mean for non-Chinese. Or they regress towards the Gentile mean. Or they regress towards for the mean for people who are darker than a mocha coffee. Or those with curly hair. Or those not born in Svalbard.

    I am afraid you lost control of yourself. Think more. Talk less. And do not fall in love with your arguments.

    • 回复: @Tyrion
    , @Bill
    , @Wizard of Oz
  141. @Tyrion

    Oh I see. So you’re actually correcting Professor Arthur Jensen’s understanding of basic statistics. For a moment there I thought you were sincere.

    The concept you seem not to grasp is the idea of “averages.” Yes, one group in the composite population may be higher than the average, but there are also other groups that, by definition, are lower than average. The regression to the mean, as I stated in my post to you, is ON AVERAGE.

    But I can now see that you’re not sincere in your confusion; you’re simply here to “correct” us. So, I resign.

    • 回复: @Tyrion
  142. Tyrion 说:
    @utu

    To paraphrase that Evergreen professor. You’re doing debate not dialectic.

    I doubt you believe in the arguments you are proposing.

  143. szopen 说:
    @Tyrion

    Listen, it’s not “refuting evidence”. The results of IQ tests are as they are. They were certainly cheery picked by both Wicherts and Lynn. For example, for Nigeria you have bunch of papers testing Nigerians which gave the IQ estimation ranging from 70 to 98.6IQ. I used to believe more in Lynn (where he ignored higher IQ tests results, arguing they come from elite samples) than in Wicherts (who did the opposite, arguing lower results come from malnourished, uneducated samples). But it’s not like saying “Lynn is wrong with his derived IQ of 64 for Gabonese” is the same as “every single IQ researcher who did tests in Gabon is wrong”.

  144. Bill 说:
    @utu

    Think more. Talk less.

    医师,自愈。

  145. @utu

    I don’t want to repeat parts of his argument I agree with, including where I think he agrees with me that we have very little reliable information from Lynn, Rushton or anyone else about the great variety of àlleles in Africa and their expression in g measuring tests. But I wish to add the observation that þhe regression towards the mean mightn’t be as potent as the discussion seems to propose. Suppose you have a group of elite families that have average IQs of 115, sd say 10, and it is from them that just about all with IQs over 115 go to British or American Universities. They intermarry and produce children who go to good British or American schools. What sort of effect do you expect from regression to the mean?

    Incidentally Steve Ssiler has said somewhere that the white ancestry of African-Americans is only about 16 per cent. And one has to ask “what sort of whites?”. Mostly not Jeffersons I guess.

    • 回复: @Bill
    , @utu
    , @utu
  146. szopen 说:
    @matt

    Not really. The difference between Wicherts and Lynn is that Wicherts is arguing one should not take into the account tests of uneducated malnourished kids with malaria, because they are not representative, while Lynn is saying one should, because most of Africans are malnourished, plagued with malaria and uneducated. The problem with Lynn argument is that Africa nowadays has better healthcare, less malnourished and better educated than 50 years ago.

    Moreover, from all the other evidence it looks like shared environment is pretty much non-influential on people except for the most extreme environments in a modern society. Once you provide basics, kids are just fine. Seems that kids in Africa are being provided with basics already.

    As for 20% admixture of European genes, it’s not like all Europeans are equal.

    • 回复: @res
    , @matt
  147. Tyrion 说:
    @Chanda Chisala

    Oh I see. So you’re actually correcting Professor Arthur Jensen’s understanding of basic statistics. For a moment there I thought you were sincere

    No, I was correcting what you said was Jensen’s understanding of basic statistics.

    I feel compelled to make that clear.

    Otherwise, I accept your resignation and conclude that we never really disagreed.

    You were merely affecting belief in the argument you proposed in order to hopefully push it onto others.

    Since what you’ve written has been thoroughly refuted in this thread, it all seems a bit of a waste of time. Perhaps in the future you might try something more useful.

    I can think of a number of policies which would greatly improve the future lives of Africans if only they were widely adopted. You could suggest ways to have them adopted or propose your own? You surely understand much better what should be done than me.

    1. Re-drawing of large African states into more tribally or ethnically homogenous polities. Nigeria would be an interesting example.

    2. The self-enforcement of a one child policy in Africa. Allowing maximum investment in offspring and the conservation of Africa’s very favourable natural resource to population ratio.

    3. The guiding of an African statelet along the path of Hong Kong, Singapore and Dubai before it. Low taxes, stable government and an initial injection of foreign expertise could provide a shining and inspirational example to the rest of the continent.

    • 回复: @res
  148. Santoculto 说:
    @utu

    Tutu is a RACIST/HYPER-tribalist AND a SELFISH-OPPORTUNISTIC,

    EVERY black deficience he will defend believing that he will protect or help ”your own” people. He’s denying for your own people the right to have access to their collective self-knowledge. Indeed, rich, well-behaved and/or cognitively smart blacks TEND to lean on the left but by individual reasons, they don’t want be victim of ”racism’ BECAUSE they tend to deal with non-black people/out of black communities 更多的时间 than most black people usually do.

  149. One problem that the author faces in making his arguments is that he assumes that his audience would be familiar with order statistics. As order statistics for Gaussian distributions leads to integrals that are not obviously relateable to even garden variety special functions, and as a healthy proportion of the audience would be unable to define integrals, let alone define cumulative distribution functions in terms of integration, it seems a lost cause.

  150. Bill 说:
    @szopen

    哦,顺便说一句:

    Now, tell me, what shape has a complex random variable built from hundreds of independent random variables?

    1) Lots of shapes are possible, depending on how it is built. The CLT applies to averages of not-too-correlated and not-too-differently-distributed random variables. There are other things than averages.
    2) sneaking in the word “independent” is a bit of precious question-begging.

  151. Bill 说:
    @Wizard of Oz

    Yes, this is Tyrion’s argument which the author is pretending not to understand. Or maybe doesn’t understand. Who can tell?

  152. Santoculto 说:

    When people talk about regression towards or to the mean, whatever, they are, conscious or not, saying: ”higher cognitive skills/IQ is … genetically recessive” and that it’s more recessive for populations where the distance between the mean and ceiling is bigger AND where no have social stratification/selective segregation. So regression towards mean, in literal sense most people seems tend to believe, it’s more common for highly socially [intra]-mobility-groups than among highly socially stratified groups, with lower levels of inter-social/caste genetic mixing [instead it’s also dependent of other factors for example the size of population].

    It’s also mean a long history of a well-stablished niche of socially stratified highly ”intelligent” people, often the elites, something that afro-americans no have and that many population on black Africa it’s expected to have, but less those who has been selected to operate in ”modern” societies.

    So, it’s expected that to high-social class africans, specially those with cognitive skills at civilization-levels, the regression towards the macro-racial-mean will be less intense [or that, higher cognitive skills are less recessive for them] than for afro-americans, for example, where, seems, no have a long history of social stratification, differential selection [pressure to the high intelligence] and its expected selective results.

  153. res 说:
    @Tyrion

    Tyrion, you make many excellent points in this thread. I see you only started commenting at the Unz Review a week or two ago. Please stick around and keep commenting!

    但在这种情况下:

    Were one to kill the bottom half in intelligence of a group, would you still expect the surviving top half to regress towards the previous mean?

    you are mistaken. If you look into the animal breeding literature you will see that is exactly what happens in breeding selection. And in this context the correct meaning of “towards” is indeed “in the direction of.” By a quantitatively measurable amount.

    This page provides an introduction: http://animalscience2.ucdavis.edu/ggg201d/references/response_selection.html

    In particular pay attention to the breeder’s equation: R = h^2*S
    更多相关信息,请访问 https://westhunt.wordpress.com/2013/06/07/the-breeders-equation/

    To go further, population means can change, but if you look at multi-generational breeding experiments the old means seem to have more persistence than one might expect if selection stops. Not necessarily the case in real world examples where selection is occurring in response to consistent environmental changes though.

    I am looking forward to reading your comments following #119.

    P.S. I hope the people using a relative lack of regression towards the mean for IQ as an argument in this thread realize that is strong evidence for the high heritability of IQ (see h^2 in the breeder’s equation above). I don’t think they would want to accidentally argue in favor of something they don’t believe.

    • 回复: @Afrosapiens
    , @Tyrion
    , @utu
  154. res 说:
    @Okechukwu

    Do you even understand what a brain drain is? Nigerians who obtain their education and credentials in the US or UK do not constitute a brain drain. A brain drain is when those already educated and practicing a high-skill profession leave a country.

    I do. A brain drain is when especially intelligent people (educated or not at that moment) in a given country emigrate. What you describe is an especially damaging subset of that.

    I’m a Nigerian. I have dozens of relatives in the US and UK. Almost all the adults are well-educated professionals. ALL OF THEM obtained their degrees and professional credentials in the US and UK.

    And why did you and those others leave to get your degrees in the US or UK? Perhaps because Nigeria could not supply the kinds of educational opportunities beneficial to someone with your intellect? Or were you somehow randomly selected from the entire population of Nigeria? Back in Nigeria were your parents part of the elite or peasants in the countryside? Or perhaps discriminated against Igbos?

    For each one of them innumerable other Nigerians 本来可以 done the same thing, 有机会。

    Proof? Not holding my breath waiting…

    I am really coming to enjoy the “can” and “could” constructions in arguments like this. They provide a great tell for unjustified assumptions.

    P.S. As Tyrion asks: Who do you think you are persuading?

  155. res 说:
    @szopen

    As for 20% admixture of European genes, it’s not like all Europeans are equal.

    Nor all Africans. Does anyone here think slavery selected for high intelligence? I think it is fair to assume both the becoming enslaved and the living under slavery parts selected against IQ.

    • 回复: @Jm8
    , @matt
    , @matt
    , @matt
  156. Jm8 说:
    @res

    “I think it is fair to assume both the becoming enslaved and the living under slavery parts selected against IQ.”

    Yes that could be the case.
    Those sold as slaves likely tended overall to come more from the less advanced tribes that were more easily overpowered/conquered by stronger ones, and also to come disproportionately from those of lower status (since criminals, debtors, slaves, indentured servants/pawns, lower caste people in places where caste existed, and the poor were more likely to be sold)
    Once they were in the Americas, the plantation system, one suspects, would not exactly select for high intelligence, if anything the reverse (especially in a place like the United states where slave breeding was most practiced—though that tended to be somewhat less of a factor in the Caribbean, where it was generally practiced less and new slaves were often, at least in many periods, more likely to be brought from Africa to replace dead ones, compared to the US where importation was banned relatively early and the desire was to produce as many chattel laborers as possible.

    • 回复: @Jm8
    , @matt
    , @matt
  157. res 说:
    @Krastos the Gluemaker

    有趣的评论。

    Your basic idea and the point of your extended analogy is that the SAT is an imperfect proxy for IQ, right?

    I agree with that as I stated it, but I think we disagree rather strongly about how large that imperfection is. The correlation is high and my personal experience has been that near ceiling scores on the pre-1995 SAT are highly suggestive of IQ significantly above 130.

    Brief interlude, but one thing a ton of people don’t understand is that changes in the SAT before the 1995 scoring changes also exist, and not just on the fake social justice issues like removing rare “classist” questions, but on actually changing the expected difficulty of the exam. Some of the only publicly available/peer-reviewed studies on the SAT in old timeframes like that discuss this. In other words, the most notable purposeful decline in “hard questions” occurred might have in the mid-1980s, at any rate there was such a change, while the nonlinear scoring change that happened later isn’t really the same thing, even though it’s what everybody cites.

    There were changes both before and after 1995. I looked into this a fair bit a while ago. Here is a comment with much of what I found. In particular see the final link for information on the older SATs: https://www.unz.com/isteve/david-colemans-travails-revamping-the-sat/#comment-1816562
    There were significant changes in 1974 in particular.

    I don’t see evidence for major changes in the mid-1980s but I am open to additional evidence.

    but the median will often be right around the threshold/barely above it

    If you look at the numbers it makes perfect sense. At the tails the normal distribution declines steeply. If you look at truncated distributions above 2-3SD you will find that the expected mean and median are close to the threshold. Seeing anything else is evidence that something else is going on (e.g. the real threshold is higher than expected, fat tails or other non-normality, etc.).

    and those who participated often get there with a good amount of help from random chance; there are plenty of 130 IQ people in the population who also missed cutoffs or thresholds on the “measurement.”

    An excellent point. If there is much noise the much greater population at e.g. 130 IQ will cause exactly that effect. A good reason not to trust any single piece of evidence and instead look for a body of confirming evidence. The question is how much noise to estimate for different pieces of evidence? And if there are any special circumstances-like the top quoted SAT score for someone who took the test many times and taught (not attended) test prep classes before that.

    Thinking about this is helped greatly by remembering the following. More at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/68%E2%80%9395%E2%80%9399.7_rule
    I think the time interpretation of frequency given there is helpful for intuition.

    Population frequencies at different thresholds on the normal curve:
    mean – 1 in 2
    +1 SD – 1 in 6
    +2 SD – 1 in 44 (I often round to 1 in 50 or 2%, this is 130 IQ, aka Mensa threshold)
    +3 SD – 1 in 740
    (last two rounded)
    +4 SD – 1 in 30,000
    +5 SD – 1 in 3.5 million

  158. @Chanda Chisala

    Relative to human history, the interaction that Africa has had with other people is still very recent, very brief, relatively superficial, and the vast majority still really haven’t had even that little contact.

    But couldn’t this relative seclusion just as easily be an explanation of lower average IQ and different behavioral traits?

    No one is claiming that Europeans or NE Asians just magically increased their IQ overnight. Environmental and cultural pressures over tens of thousands of years caused it. Cold winters might require better building and planning skills (both related to IQ and other behavioral traits), increasing their attributes in a population.

    The creation of large scale agriculture and cities would also push for people with certain skills and behavioral traits most certainly related to IQ.

    If sub-Saharan African populations were never subjected to these forces, it wouldn’t be surprising if their average IQ remained at lower levels. Indeed, it would be stunning if sub-Saharan Africans managed to evolve a similar IQ to Europeans and NE Asians without going through these processes. It would put the Theory of Evolution in serious doubt.

    • 回复: @RaceRealist88
    , @Okechukwu
  159. Jm8 说:
    @Jm8

    编辑:
    “Yes that could be the case.
    Those sold as slaves likely tended overall to come more from the less advanced tribes (and sub-tribes) that were more easily overpowered/conquered…”

    • 回复: @Jm8
  160. Jm8 说:
    @Jm8

    编辑:

    ““I think it is fair to assume both the becoming enslaved……””

    “Yes I suspect that is the case.
    Those sold as slaves likely tended overall to come more from the less advanced tribes (and sub-tribes) that were more easily overpowered/conquered…”

  161. res 说:
    @Tyrion

    Please don’t let poor arguments and purposeful attempts to mislead by some of the proponents persuade you there is nothing to the idea.

    In my opinion the issue is more with overreach in the arguments. I agree with szopen that significant success in Scrabble is evidence against an estimated IQ of 64 in Gabon (though we may disagree on details). Take a look at my normal curve frequency numbers just above.

    My explanation is some combination of the following (exact proportions unknown and IMHO currently unknowable due to lack of data):

    – Environmental depression of IQ in much of the African population. In other words, genetic IQ potential is greater than apparent from phenotypic IQ (but closer to 10 IQ points than 30 IMO).
    – High likelihood of a correlation of environment with IQ. High IQ parents are more likely to provide good environments for their children. Thus the elites are closer to their genetic IQ potential. This fattens the IQ tail IMO.
    – Subpopulations with higher IQs. For example the Igbo. This makes the IQ curve non-normal. I sometimes colloquially refer to this as fat-tailed, but this is a specific form of fat tail.
    – Verbal affinity and ability are typically greater for Africans at a given IQ than for other populations. This directs high ability individuals towards Scrabble rather than games like Chess or Go.
    – A special effort (e.g. coaches) by Africans to succeed at Scrabble followed by a positive feedback loop based on initial success.

    The extent of environmental IQ depression in Africa is important for making assessments of the potential for African development. I wish there was more data and less rhetoric surrounding this. A good start would be for African countries to collect better intelligence and education (both input like #years and results like test scores) data.

    Some people appear to be trying to use the Scrabble data to argue that in equivalent environments African average IQs will rise to match the US or UK white mean of 100 (or is that the still higher East Asian and Jewish means?). Good luck with that.

    P.S. The selective immigration argument does not really apply to Scrabble performance in Africans in their native countries. It is much more relevant to Chanda’s arguments based on the high performance of Africans in the UK. The denials of it are ridiculous and annoying (especially given the data I presented!), but don’t really affect the overall argument here.

    P.P.S. Do you disagree with my regression towards the mean statements in comment 156?

    • 回复: @Tyrion
    , @Chanda Chisala
  162. res 说:
    @Bill

    Bill, what do you think of my multifactorial argument just above this?

    • 回复: @Bill
  163. @res

    Regression toward the mean or the lack thereof doesn’t support a genetic hypothesis.

    As the GWAS literature suggests, the genetic variance in IQ is additive and does not follow a Mendelian mode of inheritance in which recessive alleles are silenced in an individual. An individual’s gene expression is the average of the effect size of the alleles he carries and an offspring’s gene expression is the average of the effect size of the alleles he receives from his parents. For regression toward a genetic mean to happen, parents must be less likely to transmit their higher IQ alleles than those that are closer to their population’s average, and this hypothesis is unwarranted.

    Regression to the mean can be explained by environment however as offsprings, for whatever reason, might not receive the same amount of environmental inputs that made their parents successful. Lack of regression towards the mean might on the contrary imply that the kids received similar environmental inputs as their parents.

    • 哈哈: res
    • 回复: @Afrosapiens
  164. @res

    Proof? Not holding my breath waiting…

    I am really coming to enjoy the “can” and “could” constructions in arguments like this. They provide a great tell for unjustified assumptions.

    P.S. As Tyrion asks: Who do you think you are persuading?

    You’re still not understanding that intrinsic ability is not the single factor at play in any outcome.

    I agree with Okechukwu, I was born in Haiti, adopted by upper class French parents with my sisters. Graduated from an elite school, I have a good job. Plenty of Haitians or middle class native French could have succeeded like me or better due to their “genetic potential”. But somehow, they had a different life.

    Now we know how res will create the next Forbes 500 company. He will simply hire some bright STEM guys who can do something. And of course, the investment money will fall from the sky and the market will be receptive just because his guys can do it. That’s how res will become the next Bill Gates.

    • 回复: @res
  165. res 说:
    @Tyrion

    I would be very interested in hearing thoughtful responses to your policy proposals from the Africans commenting here.

    I have a forlorn hope that a Biafra full of Igbo would combine your 1 and 3.

    From a practical point of view I think South Korea makes a better model for your 3. (the others are rather special cases IMHO). But that analogy seems to be out of favor right now: http://www.afrol.com/articles/22953

  166. utu 说:
    @Chanda Chisala

    You are making your point very well. Children of the elite will have lower IQ than their parents. This is all what you need in your argument. It follows from the breeder’s equation but you do not have to mention the regression to the mean. But you have mentioned it and this attracted a character Tyrion who apparently gets triggered by the regression to the mean.

  167. Tyrion 说:
    @res

    you are mistaken. If you look into the animal breeding literature you will see that is exactly what happens in breeding selection. And in this context the correct meaning of “towards” is indeed “in the direction of.” By a quantitatively measurable amount.

    Thank you for your very gracious tone! It is a pleasure to read.

    My objection though is that members of the newly formed population will not regress towards the previous whole population’s mean but instead to an as yet undiscovered mean for the newly formed population.

    Your link makes the same point but more elegantly:

    With tougher selection, say by kidnapping a year’s worth of National Merit Finalists, you could create a new ethny with far higher average intelligence than any existing. Eugenics is not only possible, it’s trivial.

    Or to put it into the context of this discussion, due to the very heavy selective pressures on recent black African migrants to America they form a new and higher IQ ethny.

    The traveller may be moving from London in the direction of Paris and Beijing, but if they’re only going to Paris it doesn’t seem very useful to highlight that they also happen to be going towards Beijing.

    I imagine you are very well aware of this though

    as you provided the link so I shall endeavour to be clearer in the future!

    P.S. I hope the people using a relative lack of regression towards the mean for IQ as an argument in this thread realize that is strong evidence for the high heritability of IQ (see h^2 in the breeder’s equation above). I don’t think they would want to accidentally argue in favor of something they don’t believe.

    It seems that the more equal environment for children in modern societies will likely have gone someway to reducing the explanatory power of environment in IQ variation.

    Related, I read something about nobles being much taller than peasants were in the past but I have absolutely no recollection of where nor can I find a reference to it so it was probably in a novel.

    • 回复: @res
  168. @res

    Back in Nigeria were your parents part of the elite or peasants in the countryside? Or perhaps discriminated against Igbos?

    “Discriminated Igbos?” What, isn’t discrimination just an imaginary excuse?

  169. utu 说:
    @Wizard of Oz

    Tyron is confused who will persist in his error because he easily falls in love with his own arguments. It is a form of intellectual Onanism or having a drink with the image in the mirror.

    For his argument Chanda wanted to lower IQ of African immigrants. Which he accomplished by invoking the regression to the mean that would apply if the immigrants were from the elite, i.e., from the above of the mean. Then the fact that these children outperform (elite) African Americans was more striking.

    If African immigrants were not from the elite then Chanda did not need to lower the IQ of their children for his argument because not being form elite their IQ would be low by American standard yet the children outperform (elite) African Americans.

    • 回复: @res
  170. MarkinLA 说:
    @CanSpeccy

    But that in no way proves that intelligence determines creativity

    I never said that. I might have it wrong but between you and Santoculto there seemed to be some thinking that “creativity” whatever that is, is the most important trait. I am saying that there is worthless creativity and that which is of value trends to occur with people of high intelligence.

  171. Tyrion 说:
    @res

    I agree with szopen that significant success in Scrabble is evidence against an estimated IQ of 64 in Gabon

    Agreed, and despite having never gone to Gabon I have travelled throughout the continent and spoken with a range of individuals across socio-economic classes so no research paper could convince me that the average IQ is as low as 64.

    It is almost as silly a thought as that African migrants to America are a representative sample of Africans more generally…

    Other than the anecdote above, I have nothing more to add. It all makes perfect sense.

  172. MarkinLA 说:
    @CanSpeccy

    There are a lot of silly ideas that smart people have or haven’t you been paying attention to our universities lately. Are all those professors actually lacking intelligence? People can be brainwashed. Religion is one vehicle. If the Pope told the Spanish that Amerindians could never be part of the Holy Church and the best way to deal with them is to baptize them and kill them, the Spanish probably would have complied. Instead the Pope wanted their souls “saved”.

    • 回复: @Santoculto
  173. utu 说:
    @Wizard of Oz

    Suppose you have a group of elite families

    We had a discussion on breeder’s eq. before I think. First of all breeder’s eq. is concerned with the expected values, i.e., if parents are smarter than the population mean then their children are more likely to be less smart than parents. However smarter children than their parents also will be born but less of them. This is however OK because the Gaussian curve above parents IQ has lower values than below their IQ so to replace parents population above parent’s IQ you need less children than below parent’s IQ. Mathematically the 2nd generation is arrived as moving window convolution of the 1st generation Gaussian curve. The width of the smoothing window varies.

    What happens in the 3rd generations? Does the same breeder’s eq. apply? I think it does. But it does not mean that “the group of elite families” will all regress to the mean because all the time also smarter children than their parents are born. This is necessitated by the fact that in the stable population of which “the group of elite families” is a part of variance does not change. It goes back to the convolution argument.

    • 回复: @res
    , @Wizard of Oz
  174. @Afrosapiens

    • 哈哈: 水库

    Is it another of your compelling arguments that I just misinterpret?

    • 回复: @res
  175. Okechukwu 说:
    @Tyrion

    Cool story bruh. Was anybody supposed to learn anything from your anecdote except that you are exceptionally proud to be marrying a white person?

    And she’s a really lucky girl to be marrying someone who primarily sees her that way…

    Gee, it slipped my mind that your ridiculous ideology holds that white women are these heavenly, ethereal, perfect creatures. Apparently most of you guys have never been with one.

    My anecdote, which is supported by easily corroborated factual evidence, goes to demonstrate that there’s no particular selection regime in immigration that prioritizes intelligence or IQ (not that IQ even measures raw intelligence, it doesn’t).

  176. utu 说:
    @res

    Were one to kill the bottom half in intelligence of a group, would you still expect the surviving top half to regress towards the previous mean?

    you are mistaken. If you look into the animal breeding literature you will see that is exactly what happens in breeding selection.

    I think you are right. The regressing to the mean does not imply that this mean is the same as the mean (average) of the subpopulation. The subpopulation average will remain above the original mean and because of the regression to the mean the average will be moving towards the original mean but slowly. The truncated 1/2 Gaussian distribution will be smoothed out by repeated convolutions for each new generation but it will not become a Gaussian distribution and its average will remain above the original mean. Still there will be a memory of the original mean.

    In breeding selection it is never a one step process. Each generation is trimmed so that forces the average to stabilize.

  177. Santoculto 说:
    @Okechukwu

    Masters of CLEVERNESS… and not necessarily INTELLIGENCE….

  178. @Okechukwu

    My anecdote, which is supported by easily corroborated factual evidence, goes to demonstrate that there’s no particular selection regime in immigration that prioritizes intelligence or IQ (not that IQ even measures raw intelligence, it doesn’t).

    不完全是。

    Firstly, it is obvious that developing world emigrants are rarely illiterate peasants. They could not deal with the administrative process and financial requirements. Legal emigrants will tend to be more educated than average, but illegal emigrants not so much and this will significantly lower the selection effect.

    Secondly, immigration is sponsored by relatives, and these relatives have often sent remittances that contributed to increasing well being and educational opportunities for those potential future emigrants in the home country. It means that the higher socio-economic status of the emigrant population is more likely to have an environmental cause than a genetic one.

    • 回复: @Okechukwu
  179. Tyrion 说:
    @Okechukwu

    Gee, it slipped my mind that your ridiculous ideology holds that white women are these heavenly, ethereal, perfect creatures.

    You are right sort of. That is a primarily Western delusion. Though I as an individual primarily identify feminity with nature and the earthly, which is the opposite of what you allege.

    My point does stand too. She is a lucky lucky lady if her future husband’s favourite thing about her is her skin colour.

    My anecdote, which is supported by easily corroborated factual evidence, goes to demonstrate that there’s no particular selection regime in immigration that prioritizes intelligence or IQ (not that IQ even measures raw intelligence, it doesn’t).

    Are you still trying to claim that moving to America is in the reach of the average African? This is so boring. Can we talk about African v Western conceptions of feminity, possible paths to development for Africa or something interesting.

    Perhaps you have an opinion on African countries adopting the one child policy? I think it’d be great, but then maybe my reasoning is motivated by the fact that I do not want Britain (the country that kindly took my ancestors in) being turned into New Africa or indeed New Anything Else.

    Perhaps you even agree that Western Europeans have gone mad by opening their borders and that a nation is a precious thing to have?

    Who knows, because you’re still trying to pretend it is the average among those who averagely earn a Dollar a day that make it to America and secure for their children something thay Russians and Chinese have reportedly been spending tens or even hundreds of thousands of Dollars for. Please stop it is so stupid.

    • 回复: @Afrosapiens
  180. res 说:
    @Afrosapiens

    You’re still not understanding that intrinsic ability is not the single factor at play in any outcome.

    I don’t think intrinsic ability is a single factor behind outcomes. Please stop misrepresenting my beliefs and arguments. It is an important factor though!

    I agree with Okechukwu, I was born in Haiti, adopted by upper class French parents with my sisters. Graduated from an elite school, I have a good job. Plenty of Haitians or middle class native French could have succeeded like me or better due to their “genetic potential”. But somehow, they had a different life.

    Thanks for the additional background. That does make you an especially instructive example. Do you know the background of your birth parents? Are you an Igbo?

    • 回复: @Jm8
  181. res 说:
    @Afrosapiens

    No. That is how I respond when you reply to a compelling argument with handwaving.

    • 回复: @Afrosapiens
  182. res 说:
    @Okechukwu

    My anecdote, which is supported by easily corroborated factual evidence, goes to demonstrate that there’s no particular selection regime in immigration that prioritizes intelligence or IQ (not that IQ even measures raw intelligence, it doesn’t).

    No one is claiming the selection is intentional (e.g. a “regime”). Simply that it exists. As proved by the brain drain data.

    Please grace us with some of your “easily corroborated factual evidence.”

  183. Okechukwu 说:
    @Citizen of a Silly Country

    No one is claiming that Europeans or NE Asians just magically increased their IQ overnight.

    They did if you consider that European and American IQ’s around the turn of 20th century were in the 60’s and 70’s.

    Environmental and cultural pressures over tens of thousands of years caused it. Cold winters might require better building and planning skills (both related to IQ and other behavioral traits), increasing their attributes in a population

    The evidence says otherwise. Eurasia lies in the temperate zone. That was far more hospitable and survivable than tropical Africa. In fact humans were fully-formed, intellectually and otherwise, in the hot jungles and arid savannas of Africa, which were and remain forbidding. Whites couldn’t even go into the African interior without modern medications. If they did they’d die. Humans have not gotten smarter since dispersing in and out of Africa. We’ve just gotten more experienced and more knowledgeable.

    Moreover, civilization radiated from the warmer south to the colder north. There’s a reason there are hardly any sophisticated ancient structures or manuscripts in Northwestern Europe.

    The creation of large scale agriculture and cities would also push for people with certain skills and behavioral traits most certainly related to IQ.

    Africa had large-scale agriculture and cities. In fact African slaves from agricultural regions were prized for their know-how and expertise. For example, African slaves from rice growing regions are credited by some historians with creating the rice cultivation industry in the United States.

    If sub-Saharan African populations were never subjected to these forces, it wouldn’t be surprising if their average IQ remained at lower levels. Indeed, it would be stunning if sub-Saharan Africans managed to evolve a similar IQ to Europeans and NE Asians without going through these processes. It would put the Theory of Evolution in serious doubt.

    It doesn’t work that way. Notwithstanding the fact that Africans are actually the ones that emerged from a much more challenging and intellectually stimulating environment relative to Europeans and NE Asians, every human environment makes adaptive demands on intelligence. The only traits that are variable are the superficial phenotypes that offer a unique survival advantage in a given environment. Skin color, for example. The core, complex traits that have an equal survival value in any environment are not deferentially distributed between various populations of humans. This is why all human groupings have intelligence, language and abstraction. But they do not all have light or dark skin. The same applies to complex organs. They too have an equal survival value in any environment. No human group or “race” has better hearts or livers. Therefore it’s impossible that any human group is going to have better brains, which is just another complex organ.

    • 同意: Afrosapiens
  184. Bill 说:
    @res

    I think it is very reasonable, and you could add unrepresentative samples to the list if you want. I don’t have a strong opinion about whether Gabon’s mean IQ is 64, 74, or 80. On the other hand, you don’t need a very big subpopulation with near-triple-digit IQs to get a few good scrabble players. The Igbo example is nice because widely known, but I don’t see why the sub-populations have to be so big or to have names. Marrying into a good family is something the children of good families are encouraged to do—even in degenerate America this is true. That dynamic by itself has to make little high-IQ (and conscientiousness, and etc) sub-populations.

    The idea that you can go from “there are some black African guys who play scrabble well” or “black Nigerians who hold non-education PhDs from American universities are pretty smart, and so are their children” to some sweeping conclusion that we don’t have good reasons to believe blacks have low IQs for genetic reasons is bizarre, however.

    Also, good job on digging up the fact that Kenny Solomon is an affirmative action grandmaster. That is some funny stuff.

    • 回复: @res
  185. I don’t think intrinsic ability is a single factor behind outcomes. Please stop misrepresenting my beliefs and arguments. It is an important factor though!

    I’m not misinterpreting anything, you repeatedly dismissed as an excuse any argument that said many things not related to intellect and education held back progress in Africa, making fun at “we could but we don’t” types of arguments.

    Thanks for the additional background. That does make you an especially instructive example. Do you know the background of your birth parents? Are you an Igbo?

    LMAO! I’m Haitian, which is a mix of various West African ethnicities. There aren’t specific ethnic groups that have remained endogamous.

    And I don’t really get this obsession with Igbos. All African countries have ethnicities that tend to be better off than their country’s average, mostly due to political favoritism either during the colonial or after years of dictatorial rule.

    • 回复: @Afrosapiens
    , @Tyrion
  186. res 说:
    @Tyrion

    My objection though is that members of the newly formed population will not regress towards the previous whole population’s mean but instead to an as yet undiscovered mean for the newly formed population.

    This is an important point, but it is hard to quantify. For that reason I tend it ignore it unless discussing a well known subpopulation with good data available (e.g. Jews in America, or the Igbo in Nigeria if only there was better data). But I certainly agree that Charles Darwin’s family was regressing towards a higher mean than England as a whole. A good estimate for that mean on the other hand…I don’t know.

    Or to put it into the context of this discussion, due to the very heavy selective pressures on recent black African migrants to America they form a new and higher IQ ethny.

    I think this is in the process of happening but we don’t have enough of the next generation having matured to really conclude much specific. At the moment I think there is still an important component of African tribe subpopulation higher IQ ethny(ies?). In other words, it is probably safer to use the home population tribal mean IQs (if they were available) rather than trying to guesstimate some new African immigrants in America ethny. Stated another way, I suspect the second generation to regress towards a somewhat selected version (see the breeder’s equation) of the tribal means with later generations regressing to that new American subgroup mean.

    It seems that the more equal environment for children in modern societies will likely have gone someway to reducing the explanatory power of environment in IQ variation.

    This is an excellent point which I love to hammer on because I think it gets too little attention. The more egalitarians succeed in equalizing environments the more important the underlying genetics become in explaining the remaining differences (though those differences probably shrink due to broken feedback loops).

    It actually provides a good reason to posit a larger environmental component to IQ in Africa than in the more developed world.

    Related, I read something about nobles being much taller than peasants were in the past but I have absolutely no recollection of where nor can I find a reference to it so it was probably in a novel.

    ; ) The thing about that is I think it had both genetic and environmental components, but have never seen an attempt to analyze the relative contribution in historical times. An interesting question.

    P.S. You are living up to your namesake (assuming your username is a GoT reference) in terms of insight and humor. And that is a high ; ) bar indeed. Thanks for the stimulating conversation.

  187. @res

    Nope, again, you’re misinterpreting things.

    In artificial selection, the reason why descendants regress toward a mean is not because they regress toward a genetic population mean, it’s the opposite. Since genes explain only a fraction of the phenotypic variance, matching for phenotype will result in imperfect response to selection because the non-genetic component of the variance will bring the offspring closer to the population mean.

    Additive variance has no such thing as non-expressed recessive alleles so a heritability of 1 will never result in regression towards a population mean. The child’s phenotype will just be the average of his parent’s.

    Then you said absence of regression to the mean proved high heritability of IQ. Not necessarily, it just mean this subset of the African population closely matched for environmental factors which persist generation after generation, thus no regression toward the mean has to be expected. But it tells nothing about the heritability of IQ in the general African population which likely expresses more environmental variation.

  188. res 说:
    @utu

    Tyron is confused who will persist in his error because he easily falls in love with his own arguments.

    Projection is a terrible thing. Tyrion’s response (comment 171) to my criticism of his regression towards the mean comment makes clear how wrong you are. My statement “you are mistaken” was very blunt language yet he was willing and able to consider the evidence I presented and actually quoted that part in his response. If only more people here showed that much of an open mind.

    Where did the word “elite” come from in the following sentence?

    Then the fact that these children outperform (elite) African Americans was more striking.

    • 回复: @utu
    , @Jm8
  189. Okechukwu 说:
    @Afrosapiens

    Firstly, it is obvious that developing world emigrants are rarely illiterate peasants.

    But this assumes that illiterate peasants are innately less intelligent than literate urbanites, which is false. Literacy does not equal intelligence. Highly literate slave masters weren’t always the smartest people on a plantation. Often if was the slaves, who couldn’t even read or write. To paraphrase Stephen Jay Gould, Einsteinian-level geniuses have lived and died in cotton fields and sweat shops. European history is instructive in this regard. Many of the people running the world today are descendants of illiterate serfs, indentured servants and peasant farmers.

    Secondly, immigration is sponsored by relatives

    Precisely. And those relatives don’t care how smart or dumb the sponsored party is. I know from personal experience that it definitely isn’t always the best and brightest Nigerians that are coming to America. Many of the best and brightest have no chance.

    • 回复: @Afrosapiens
  190. res 说:
    @utu

    What happens in the 3rd generations? Does the same breeder’s eq. apply? I think it does.

    No. The West Hunter link I gave earlier discusses this: https://westhunt.wordpress.com/2013/06/07/the-breeders-equation/

    The next point is that the luck only goes away once. If you took those kids from the first group, with average IQs of 110, and dropped them on an uninhabited but friendly island, they would presumably get around to mating eventually – and the next generation would also have an IQ of 110.

    If you select again then the breeder’s equation again applies but based on the new higher mean.

    • 回复: @utu
    , @utu
  191. @Tyrion

    My point does stand too. She is a lucky lucky lady if her future husband’s favourite thing about her is her skin colour.

    I think Okechukwu only mentioned his fiancée’s skin color just to highlight how unwelcoming America was for highly educated candidates even if they are white and German. If you don’t understand this, it’s reasonable to suspect that you’re not comfortable with interracial marriage.

    • 回复: @Tyrion
  192. Santoculto 说:
    @MarkinLA

    Intelligence is not just

    潜力

    也不

    认知

    So yes, this people may have potential but experience has proved that they lack personal smart achievements, one of them is: don’t be fooled by their own feelings. Intelligence based on IQ is just like a innately reached achievement but not, intelligence is a challenge for all life and they have proved if not for themselves at least for subjective outsiders that they are fraudulent intellectuals. IQ seems just like height and basketball. To be exceptional in basketball you must need to be taller, it’s a pre condition, but this doesn’t mean that you will be a exceptional player even if you practice it at professional levels.

    IQ create this fixed pseudo achievement while in the true intelligence is all the time and it’s basically correct pattern recognition + factual understanding at priori. The potential at least cognitively convergent is there but the achievements or lack of will prove how really smart people can be.

  193. @Afrosapiens

    PS: No, my case isn’t instructive at all. At least, not as far as common sense is concerned. There is nothing more common than kids of rich educated parents graduating from good schools and getting good jobs. It’s the norm. Even if those kids aren’t genetically related to their parents.

    • 回复: @res
  194. Jm8 说:
    @res

    The largest single ethnic elements in the ancestry of Haitians tend to by 1. various tribes from West Central Africa i.e. the Western Congo and northern Angola (a significant element in virtually all New world Afro descendant groups in both North and South America and the Caribbean), and 2. People of the Fon (and other similar Gbe-speaking groups) from around the kingdom of Dahomey in the modern Republic of Benin (not to be confused with the Kingdom of Benin in Nigeria, which is composed of a different ethnic group, the Bini/Edo people, who didi not participate much in the slave trade), and 3. the rest other smaller amounts of various other West African ethnic groups (Igbos are not a significant element in Haiti)

    • 回复: @res
    , @Afrosapiens
  195. res 说:
    @Bill

    and you could add unrepresentative samples to the list if you want.

    Good point. I had not thought of that (thanks!), but on reflection I think that would tend to bias the measured IQ numbers higher (rather than the low numbers given by Lynn) so I think I will leave it off going forward given the potential to muddy the waters. Although I suppose someone attempting to correct for an unrepresentative sample and overdoing it is a possibility.

    On the other hand, you don’t need a very big subpopulation with near-triple-digit IQs to get a few good scrabble players. The Igbo example is nice because widely known, but I don’t see why the sub-populations have to be so big or to have names.

    This is an important point, but it is hard to quantify and depends greatly on what the Scrabble IQ threshold actually is. IQs of 115, 130, and 145 are very different in terms of how big a group is necessary for a 100 mean subpopulation to produce reasonable numbers at those levels.

  196. @Okechukwu

    But this assumes that illiterate peasants are innately less intelligent than literate urbanites, which is false.

    I agree, and I would even add that the “average African” is not really an illiterate peasant anymore in 2017. It’s an error to use socio-economic measures and pretend they reflect genetic potential. Especially in Africa where meritocracy is a very foreign concept.

    Precisely. And those relatives don’t care how smart or dumb the sponsored party is. I know from personal experience that it definitely isn’t always the best and brightest Nigerians that are coming to America. Many of the best and brightest have no chance.

    True, but smart or dumb, these relatives will tend to have higher than average SES, and hereditarians will equate that to better genetics.

  197. Okechukwu 说:
    @res

    And why did you and those others leave to get your degrees in the US or UK?

    I was born in America. Many of us are first, second and even third generation now.

  198. Jm8 说:
    @Okechukwu

    In addition to that, there are significant seasons in much of Subsaharan Africa; primarily the substantial dry and (comparatively)wet/rainy seasons, the former requiring planning/preparation and storage. Much of sub-saharan West Africa (and somewhat extending across to the east, and again in parts of the south of the continent), both the Sahel and savannah regions (and the range of zones labeled in the climate map below as: “semi-desert”, “steppe”, as well as “savanna grassland”,and dry season forest or as termed in the link “woodland savanna”) has significant dry seasons lasting roughly half the year when little food can be grown/little edible grows and hunting generally traditionally increased (as also often happened as well during cold seasons in temperate zones) and in preparation for which grain/food typically had to be stored, in traditional granaries, among the various local tribes—such being a standard and necessary part of traditional farming in those regions. The savannah, sahel and woodland savannah form a vary large belt/area and include for instance: Mali, Senegal, Burkina faso, the Northern and central parts of Ghana and Nigeria (and some of the southern parts) , and Niger at its Western end. ” They make up a large area of the continent (the savannah and Sahel regions of West—and some parts of East and Southern Africa).
    Some of the same likely applies to much of South Asia/the Indian Subcontinent and the Middle East.

    Most—though not all—rainforests/wetter forrest regions are concentrated around the center of the continent (the “greater Congo” region), and make up a relatively small part of the continent. Some dry seasons may exist in much of this area but are mostly shorter and/or less intense.

    Link to African climate maps seems not to to be causing this post to not show, so I have ommited it.

  199. res 说:
    @Jm8

    Thanks for your informative response.

  200. res 说:
    @Afrosapiens

    There is nothing more common than kids of rich educated parents graduating from good schools and getting good jobs. It’s the norm. Even if those kids aren’t genetically related to their parents.

    As reasonable as that sounds, IQ adoption studies paint a different picture. But when it is your anecdote I guess anecdotal evidence constitutes proof.

    • 回复: @Afrosapiens
    , @RaceRealist88
  201. szopen 说:
    @Okechukwu

    I would really like to know what is your definition of “sophisticated ancient structures”. There are a lot of ancient stone buildings and structures in EUrope more than thousand years BC, IIRC predating earliest African similar structures by few centuries at least.

    Second point it’s far from certain than modern human appeared first in SSA. Most of the modern human remains were found in Middle East and North Africa. It could be that modern homo sapiens (as contrasted with old hominids) actually appeared north of Sahara.

    Third point is that Europeans couldn’t go into tropical Africa not because of any intellectual problems, but because of deadly diseases. It’s hardly relevant for discussion about intellectual prowess whether one population is more or less resistant to a disease.

    Fourth point is that repeating “Europeans were in 60s or 70s” does not make it true. When corrected for FLynn effect, it seems so; but there is ongoing discussion whether FLynn effect actually measures real rise in “g”.

    Fifth is that more difficult to live environment does not mean it is more challenging to an intelligence. In an environment in which parasites, insects and bugs are aplenty, intelligence is less needed than a strong immune system – such an environment might be less hospitable to humans, more difficult to live in, but it emphatically NOT select for higher intelligence. It might be true (i am not saying it is true, merely that it might be true) that in every environment there are challenges which could be addressed by higher intelligence, however evolution is a multigoal optimization process, and higher intelligence is not costless .

    Sixth is that we actually DO know that for some genes either correlating with intelligence or with brain development their frequency is different in different population, and in fact consistent with known average national IQs (or, to be more precise, was not found to be inconsistent). This does not constitute, obviously, a proof for a biological basis for measured intelligence differences, but it does point that it’s not only skin color which was selected.

    Seventh, it is your claim “humans were fully formed intellectually”, i.e. something you have to prove, and you cannot use it as an argument to disprove any hypothesis.

    Finally, it is not true that Eurasia was more hospitable than Africa. Cold zones provide less food and have cold season where in past it was almost impossible to survive without hunting and fishing and more sophisticated toolset for making houses and clothes.

    • 回复: @Jm8
    , @Okechukwu
    , @Jm8
  202. Tyrion 说:
    @Afrosapiens

    I think Okechukwu only mentioned his fiancée’s skin color just to highlight how unwelcoming America was for highly educated candidates even if they are white and German. If you don’t understand this, it’s reasonable to suspect that you’re not comfortable with interracial marriage.

    No, I’ll stick with my initial assessment. It was supported by his response and I tend to be right about these sorts of things. He does seem to think of his girlfriend primarily in terms of her skin colour – which is sad for both of them, though hardly disastrous.

    Judging by your response, I’d also bet a good whack that you tend to be wrong about these sorts of things. Do you find that it is hard to understand other people and to be understood?

    Anyway, being Jewish I’m pretty sure about half of the people on this site would claim that I share the race of neither party in that relationship. It might be said that I have no skin in the game! Indeed a good many would say that their race mixing is all part of my and my kin’s diabolical plan. Regardless, it seems that you have grabbed the wrong stick. Try again.

    • 回复: @Afrosapiens
  203. @Jm8

    There is a lot of Senegambian ancestry in Haiti as well, since the French had a trading post in Gorée, off the coast of Senegal. But the main component is Fon/Yoruba, where Haitian voodoo comes from.

    • 回复: @Jm8
  204. Tyrion 说:
    @Afrosapiens

    LMAO! I’m Haitian, which is a mix of various West African ethnicities. There aren’t specific ethnic groups that have remained endogamous.

    If you had to give a paragraph brief on why Haiti is the least successful society in the Western hemisphere what would you produce?

    I am genuinely interested in your opinion.

    • 回复: @Afrosapiens
  205. szopen 说:
    @Okechukwu

    One more thing: you DO know that Europeans and northern Asians, on average, have larger brains than Sub-Saharan Africans? Obviously, this does not mean the innate intelligence is higher (it was postulated that, IIRC and don’t kill me if I remember it wrong larger brains evolved because of there being less light in the north, so the demand on visual system was larger) but there are measurable differences in brain.

    Those are not quantitative difference, but it does not mean they do not exist. Every humans needs to breathe, and breathing involves complex systems and organs which are useful in every environment, yet there are genetic differences between Andean Indians or Tibetans and other populations, causing Tibetans to be more adapted to live in higher altitudes.

    In short, if there is a variation WITHIN the population, then it is possible for evolving differences BETWEEN the populations, because environments differ, so they will differ in their selection pressures.

    • 回复: @Okechukwu
  206. @Okechukwu

    In fact humans were fully-formed, intellectually and otherwise, in the hot jungles and arid savannas of Africa, which were and remain forbidding. Whites couldn’t even go into the African interior without modern medications.

    Those two sentences contradict each other.

    Humans have not gotten smarter since dispersing in and out of Africa. We’ve just gotten more experienced and more knowledgeable.

    So the Theory of Evolution and Natural Selection stopped applying to humans – or, at least, to our brains? We know that plants and animals can evolve in the span of several hundred years, much less tens of thousands, but you’re claiming that human IQ has remained perfectly stable despite tens of thousands of years of dramatically different environments and cultures.

    That would truly be miraculous in a very religious sense and would turn modern science on its head. (It’d also make my rethink being agnostic.)

    It also makes me wonder why those Mastiffs are hiding their smarts while the Border Collies feel more comfortable showing off their brains. I mean, they must have the same intelligence, right?

    every human environment makes adaptive demands on intelligence.

    Identical demands? You’re saying that the demands on intelligence to live Europe during the Ice Ages were identical the demands of living in the African Savanna. Or are you saying that our IQ simply cannot be changed?

    The only traits that are variable are the superficial phenotypes that offer a unique survival advantage in a given environment. Skin color, for example. No human group or “race” has better hearts or livers. Therefore it’s impossible that any human group is going to have better brains, which is just another complex organ.

    You realize the skin is the largest human organ, right?

    So, you are arguing that average IQ for human groups, “races,” is immutable. Well, if that’s the case, please provide links to research because you’re arguing that human IQ is not susceptible to natural selection, and I’ve never seen anyone argue that.

    I mean, hey, if you’re right, I’m fine with it. But I’ve never seen anything like what you’re arguing. Even researchers who are very wary of saying that different races – oops, sorry, population groups – have different average IQs don’t argue that IQ can’t change due to natural selection.

    • 回复: @Afrosapiens
  207. @Tyrion

    If you had to give a paragraph brief on why Haiti is the least successful society in the Western hemisphere what would you produce?

    I am genuinely interested in your opinion.

    There are many ways I explain it to myself. Let’s put race aside and let’s ask why Haiti hasn’t become Barbados or Jamaica.

    My opinion is that firstly Haiti paid enormous reparations to the French for its independence, which put it in a state of perpetual indebtedness for one century. Secondly, after the first independent black nation due to a slave revolt, Haiti was a pariah of the international community and had no trade with the outer world until recently. Thirdly, and contrary to the rest of Latin America, Haiti never had wealthy educated migrants from Europe to start industries like the Dominican Republic or Brazil did. And Fourthly, Haiti has been politically instable, its history is a succession of coups and corrupt authoritarian rule.

    • 回复: @Tyrion
  208. utu 说:
    @res

    Have you considers that The West Hunter does not know what he is talking about? For this what West Hunter describes to occur the kids taken to his friendly island must constitute normal (symmetric) distribution. This is the necessary condition but probably not the sufficient one. Taking the upper 1/2 of Gaussian (wasn’t that the starting point of the discussion) does not meet this condition.

    • 回复: @res
  209. utu 说:
    @res

    Where did the word “elite” come from in the following sentence?

    From Chanda’s argument. The data were for college kids.

  210. @Tyrion

    No, I’ll stick with my initial assessment. It was supported by his response and I tend to be right about these sorts of things. He does seem to think of his girlfriend primarily in terms of her skin colour – which is sad for both of them, though hardly disastrous.

    No, I think his responses derides your focus on his mentioning his fiancée’s skin color. You could have brought up her nationality and education that he mentioned too. But somehow, you just reacted to her skin color.

    If I have to mention my fiancée’s background, I’ll have to tell you she’s a Moroccan Jew at some point. Doesn’t mean it’s the reason for my attraction to her.

    Judging by your response, I’d also bet a good whack that you tend to be wrong about these sorts of things. Do you find that it is hard to understand other people and to be understood?

    Not at all, I’m a lawyer.

    Anyway, being Jewish I’m pretty sure about half of the people on this site would claim that I share the race of neither party in that relationship. It might be said that I have no skin in the game! Indeed a good many would say that their race mixing is all part of my and my kin’s diabolical plan. Regardless, it seems that you have grabbed the wrong stick. Try again.

    I’m part of the other half, and I grabbed the right stick.

  211. Truth 说:

    WN’s I feel sorry for you…

    Here are some smelling salts…

  212. @res

    As reasonable as that sounds, IQ adoption studies paint a different picture. But when it is your anecdote I guess anecdotal evidence constitutes proof.

    Which adoption studies? Are you talking about this single un-replicated 1970s paper that the pioneer-fund clique uses as evidence of their claims when even the very authors disagree with this interpretation?

    • 回复: @res
  213. Jm8 说:
    @Afrosapiens

    There is some Senegambian, but I believe ethnic Yorubas as an element are pretty small. The Fon have been influenced by Yoruba cultures (South Yoruba groups like the Ketu Yoruba) migrated to part of Dahomey, and part of the region may have been under the influence of the(Yoruba) Oyo empire at some point) and the mix of religious influences formed Vodun(a native Dahomean word) as we know it, mixing native Gbe and Yoruba beliefs and dieties and keeping their native Gbe language—examples of Gbe languages are Fon, Ewe, and Aja—(Yoruba influence made the the culture semi-Yorubaized, in the same way that Italic peoples like the Latins or faliscans were somewhat Hellenized by Greek influence.). Ethnic Yoruba ancestry (along with BaKongo and North Angolan, like most places in the Afro-descended New world) is more significant in the Spanish Caribbean (but more so in Cuba) and Brazil.

    • 回复: @Afrosapiens
  214. utu 说:
    @res

    I get the impression that some people (you? West Hunter?) when they talk about the regression to the mean and the breeder’s equation from which it is implied think in deterministic terms that the above the average parents will produce only children that are less smart than themselves. This is not so. If it was so the population would be unstable and had shrinking variance. The breeder’s equation is true only in terms of expected values. So the smarter kids are also born because the population (its Gaussian distribution) must remain stable. The sufficient number of smarter kids are born to fill up the dent left by parents in the Gaussian. This dent is filled up by kids of even smarter parents who regressed and kids of less smart parents who anti-regressed and all of this is happening in the narrow neighborhood of parents IQ. There is more less smart parents than smarter parents. And since the Gaussian on the RHS of its mean is monotonically decreasing the number of anti-regressed kids is smaller than the number of regressed kids but it alls adds up so the distribution remains invariant.

    Last time we had a discussion about it I got the impression that West Hunter who blessed us with his presence was not getting it, or simply his monosyllabic utterances were not eloquent enough to reveal the vast depths of his knowledge.

    • 回复: @res
  215. @Citizen of a Silly Country

    Those two sentences contradict each other.

    No, Okechukwu just did not mention that Europeans didn’t evolve genetic resistance to tropical disease like Africans did.

    So the Theory of Evolution and Natural Selection stopped applying to humans – or, at least, to our brains? We know that plants and animals can evolve in the span of several hundred years, much less tens of thousands, but you’re claiming that human IQ has remained perfectly stable despite tens of thousands of years of dramatically different environments and cultures.

    Humans differ from other forms of life because we have cultural transmission and the very purpose of intelligence is that we don’t need to wait for genetic change to adapt to an environment. For instance, we needed no mutations to adapt to industrial society from agrarian society in less than one century.

    Also, natural selection is not the sole, not even the most important aspect of the theory of evolution. I mean, post-Darwinian evolution enlightened by modern genetics.

    Identical demands? You’re saying that the demands on intelligence to live Europe during the Ice Ages were identical the demands of living in the African Savanna.

    Probably, there’s no way to quantify it. But there’s no signal of ice-age related selection event in the genomes of northern population that I’m aware of. And even if there were any such thing, the selection pressure disappeared after the ice age and any genetic advantage would most likely not have survived.

    You realize the skin is the largest human organ, right?

    It’s also the most exposed to the elements.

    because you’re arguing that human IQ is not susceptible to natural selection, and I’ve never seen anyone argue that.

    I’ve argued that in some comments that you might have read, but it’s just my opinion I agree. However, it’s based on something real, the fact that natural selection can’t beat genetic drift and select alleles of small effect.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_drift#Versus_natural_selection

    Even researchers who are very wary of saying that different races – oops, sorry, population groups – have different average IQs don’t argue that IQ can’t change due to natural selection.

    They seldom say that it can.

  216. res 说:
    @utu

    Have you considers that The West Hunter does not know what he is talking about?

    I have. Looking at the argument itself I find it reasonable. The first (selected) generation probably has an above average environmental component due to the selection. That “luck” disappearing in the second generation is the basis of the breeder’s equation regression towards the mean decrease. However, the second generation has the full range (both positive and negative) of environmental luck so there is no further decrease in the third generation.

    “the luck only goes away once” is a nice concise formulation of this idea.

    And in addition to that, in this area I think the following holds:

    Pr(Greg Cochran knows what he is talking about) >> Pr(utu knows what he is talking about)
    FWIW I think this also holds in this area:
    Pr(Greg Cochran knows what he is talking about) > Pr(res knows what he is talking about)
    Which is why I linked to his blog in the first place.

    • 回复: @utu
  217. matt 说:
    @szopen

    There’s no doubt that SS Africa is better off environmentally than it was 50 years ago. The question is: Is it better off today than, say, Atlanta, GA? The answer, if you’re not insane, is no, not even close.

    You raise a better point about the possibility that whites who mated with blacks in the past were negatively selected. Flynn (1980: 81-83) discusses this.

    He says that since people don’t normally give their sexual partners IQ tests (and they hadn’t been invented during most of the relevant period anyway), the selection mechanism would have had to have been through something like social class or occupation. Even if we assume that most whites who have mated with blacks have always, throughout American history, been from the working class, working class whites just aren’t that far from the white average. Flynn cites a study that put their average IQ, in 1930, at at least 95, or a phenotypic gap of at most 5 points. The genotypic gap would have to be smaller, though: if we assume a narrow-sense heritability of somewhere around what it is today, at .5, the genotypic gap between working-class and average whites would be somewhere between 2-3 points. And this is assuming that narrow-sense heritability was roughly the same as it is today, when there is no reason to rule out, and more than a few reasons to believe, that it was smaller in past centuries. Moreover, the correlation between IQ and occupational status and class must have been much weaker in the 17th, 18th and 19th centuries, so there’s no reason to believe that even the phenotypic gap was as large as 5 points during most of the relevant period.

    Finally, there’s no reason to think that it was mainly working class whites who mated with blacks during the 整体 of the relevant period. During slavery, one might assume that many or most whites who mated with blacks were slave owners, who would have been at least slightly positively selected for IQ genes. Today, its difficult to say which direction the selection effect goes, but there are certainly many more educated and professional whites with black spouses and significant others than there were in the past.

    • 回复: @res
    , @szopen
  218. Tyrion 说:
    @Afrosapiens

    My opinion is that firstly Haiti paid enormous reparations to the French for its independence, which put it in a state of perpetual indebtedness for one century. Secondly, after the first independent black nation due to a slave revolt, Haiti was a pariah of the international community and had no trade with the outer world until recently. Thirdly, and contrary to the rest of Latin America, Haiti never had wealthy educated migrants from Europe to start industries like the Dominican Republic or Brazil did. And Fourthly, Haiti has been politically instable, its history is a succession of coups and corrupt authoritarian rule.

    All of that happened a long time ago. Poland, Hungary and Estonia were colonies of a more brutal empire much more recently, yet they’re doing fine.

    • 回复: @res
    , @Afrosapiens
  219. res 说:
    @Afrosapiens

    哪些收养研究?

    The IQ adoption studies, as I specified (all of them if you require yet more specificity). I was not making a race point. Rather the point of how much of a role genetics tended to play in general for IQ compared to things like rich educated parents. Remember how small the shared environment component is for IQ adoption studies.

    举个例子: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minnesota_Twin_Family_Study#Twins_reared_apart
    Some more references here if desired: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7203461

    I am assuming the study you are complaining about is this one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minnesota_Transracial_Adoption_Study

    It is kind of a bummer when the only available study disagrees with your views and you have to resort to anecdotal evidence. You should advocate for replication studies to be performed.

    • 回复: @Afrosapiens
  220. matt 说:
    @res

    I wouldn’t bet that slavery positively selected for intelligence, but many of the I made to szopen about the population of whites who have mated with blacks also apply to the population of Africans who were enslaved. Slaves, as Jm8 says, seem to have mainly come from the ranks of defeated enemies and lower-class people within the society. As I pointed out to szopen, occupation and class were probably only weakly correlated in 17th-19th century North America. I would imagine they were even more weakly correlated in 17th-19th century West Africa. A similar point could be made about the selective strength of 17th-19th century West African warfare.

    • 回复: @matt
  221. res 说:
    @utu

    I get the impression that some people (you? West Hunter?) when they talk about the regression to the mean and the breeder’s equation from which it is implied think in deterministic terms that the above the average parents will produce only children that are less smart than themselves. This is not so.

    Not me and I suspect not Greg. This “utu is the only one who understands this subtle point” shtick is really old at this point. Especially when the points in question are not all that subtle, as in this example.

    Last time we had a discussion about it I got the impression that West Hunter who blessed us with his presence was not getting it, or simply his monosyllabic utterances were not eloquent enough to reveal the vast depths of his knowledge.

    I know you were being sarcastic, but I think the latter is the correct explanation. At least that is what I usually discover when I think hard enough about what he says. I find Greg’s manner a bit annoying as well, but the more I deal with people like you the better I understand it.

  222. res 说:
    @matt

    He says that since people don’t normally give their sexual partners IQ tests (and they hadn’t been invented during most of the relevant period anyway), the selection mechanism would have had to have been through something like social class or occupation.

    So you (or Flynn, or both) are saying that without IQ tests people are unable to judge the intelligence of the people they spend extensive time with? Wow.

    • 回复: @matt
    , @matt
    , @Afrosapiens
  223. res 说:
    @Tyrion

    All of that happened a long time ago. Poland, Hungary and Estonia were colonies of a more brutal empire much more recently, yet they’re doing fine.

    Is this your first experience with Afroapologism? If so, hang on for the ride. If you would like the Cliff Notes version: “It is always someone else’s fault.”

    Not that some of the reasons aren’t real nor that some are not self inflicted. It’s just that there are never solutions whereas other countries routinely find solutions. Somehow. Magically I guess.

    Regarding the third reason, I wonder if the lack of wealthy educated migrants from Europe had anything to do with this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haitian_Revolution#1804_massacre_of_the_French

    Ultimately, the massacre had a long-lasting effect on the view of the Haitian Revolution and helped to create a legacy of racial hostility in Haitian society.

    真有趣。

    • 回复: @Afrosapiens
    , @Afrosapiens
  224. matt 说:
    @matt

    Narrow-sense heritability would also be, I would assume, a lot lower than .5 in 16th-19th century West Africa.

  225. @Tyrion

    你是认真的吗?

    Poland was part of the German and Russian Empire, Hungary was an autonomous Kingdom within the Austro-Hungarian empire and Estonia was part of the Russian Empire and then benefited from the USSR’s top education system, which is a good aspect of Soviet socialism. How any of this people suffered more brutal treatment than the conditions of a slave society where life expectancy was only 4 years after starting working on plantations? Plus these countries weren’t colonies, they were imperial subjects.

    Secondly, my arguments are not about the harshness of the colonial period.

    -Financial reparations for independence
    -Trade isolation
    -Political instability
    -Absence of skilled immigration.

    You know, after independence, Haiti was just a mass of penniless illiterate former slaves who knew nothing else but subsistence farming living in autarky. What kind of industrialization/modernization would you expect to happen in this context?

    • 回复: @utu
    , @Tyrion
    , @MarkinLA
  226. I wonder if anyone will address directly the implications of the claim, cited above, that:

    The average American in the year 1900 had an I.Q. that by today’s standards would measure about 67.

    Specifically, I’d like to know this:

    If Americans at the beginning of the American Century, during which America was transformed from a largely agricultural nation to an advanced industrial nation and the world’s sole superpower, had IQ’s of 67, whereas, now that America teeters of the brink of cultural, political and economic implosion, Americans have an IQ of around 100, what does this mean?

    Am I to understand that Americans are more intelligent today than 117 years ago and, if so, how exactly did this happen? Or if Americans today are no more intelligent than were their grandparents and great grandparents, how come their IQ’s are higher?

    And either way, wouldn’t it be expected that if Nigeria develops over the course of the next 100 years to become a prosperous and developed nation such as the US became during the 20th Century, that the mean IQ of Nigerians will rise during the course of the 21st Century as did that of Americans in the 20th Century?

    • 回复: @MarkinLA
  227. Jm8 说:
    @szopen

    Disease, in Africa can and have be mitigated by responses requiring intelligence and preparation (in addition to genetic adaptation). And in Africa, measures can be taken to reduce the number of those infected with malaria, such as mothers shielding their babies from mosquitoes, and, as also occurred in Africa, the avoidance of certain more malaria-prone land types (which often tended to be near certain waterways) in choosing settlement sites, as well as herbal remedies which have been in use for thousands of years (Wilcox and Bodecker, 2004). Primitive methods of inoculation have been practiced by many tribes in Africa against diseases including smallpox

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC527695/

    The earliest modern human/homo sapiens remains come from Africa (including subsaharan). remains dates ca. 200,000 bc come from Ethiopia, and recently, remains that have been classified early sapiens (or perhaps sapiens-late heidelbergensis transitional) have been found in Morocco (which is indeed above the Sahara have been redated to ca. 300,000 bc The origin of modern humans likely centered around the savannah/semi arid and arid regions of subsaharan and perhaps including parts of saharan Africa.) Other developments indicative of the presence of early modern humans in line/contemporary with the new early Moroccan dates are found in Ethiopia and Southern Africa. The oldest projectile weapons (obsidian Javelin points), are found at Gademotta Ethiopia dated 279,000 bc.
    the invention of projectiles was an important distinguishing feature in the development of modern humans (and unique to them, not being used by other/earlier hominids such as heidelbergensis or neanderthals)
    Such require a greater estimation of trajectory and distance, and the ability to design weapons with these things in mind. And that (beginning likely with distance javelins) seems to date to the early period of 279,000 bc (when we now know early homo sapiens had already diverged in Africa)
    These first projectiles are likely mostly javelins, but some possibly atlatls (with atlatls/woomeras created either roughly contemporarily or—more likely—soon after javelins)

    “Earliest Stone-Tipped Projectiles from the Ethiopian Rift Date to >279,000 Years Ago”
    http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0078092

    “射弹武器(即从远处投掷的武器)提高了史前狩猎效率,可以实现更高的冲击力投送和狩猎范围更广的动物,同时减少与危险猎物的对抗。 因此,射弹比刺矛具有显着的优势。 复合射弹技术被认为是复杂行为的象征,对智人的成功传播至关重要。 迄今为止,从 80,000 年前起,此类射弹的直接证据尚不清楚。 此处报告的来自与速度相关的微裂缝特征、诊断性损坏模式和人工制品形状的数据表明,早在 279,000 年前,埃塞俄比亚的尖石人工制品就被用作射弹武器(以有柄标枪尖端的形式)。 结合现有的考古、化石和遗传证据,这些数据将东非视为现代文化和生物学的来源。”

    Evidence of the next oldest period of modern human/sapiens cultures known are from Southern and Eastern (and to a lesser extent East Central) Africa (between about 164,000-70,000 bc and later), with the oldest outside of Africa being the homo sapiens at Skhul and Quafzeh in Isreal, dates 100,000 bc , who represented the descendants of an early migration out of nearby Africa.

    Evidence of arrowheads and adhesives (and of bows and arrows using adhesives) were made at least by 60-70,000 in Sibudu South Africa (some evidence from Pinnacle Point S.A. suggests earlier date).

    http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.466.2274&rep=rep1&type=pdf

    http://www.upi.com/Science_News/2010/08/26/Oldest-arrowheads-found-in-Africa/95431282863088/

    The preparation of stone for making microliths by precise heat treating to increase its flakeability was practiced at pinnacle point SA. from ca 164,000 bc-70,000 bc. (by homo sapiens)
    “An early and enduring advanced technology originating 71,000 years ago in South Africa”

    http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v491/n7425/full/nature11660.html?foxtrotcallback=true

    (the practice of heat treating began earlier (ca. 164,000 BC)
    “Fire As an Engineering Tool of Early Modern Humans” | Science

    http://science.sciencemag.org/content/325/5942/859

    “…The analysis of tools at multiple sites shows that the source stone materials were systematically manipulated with fire to improve their flaking properties. Heat treatment predominates among silcrete tools at ~72 thousand years ago (ka) and appears as early as 164 ka at Pinnacle Point, on the south coast of South Africa. Heat treatment demands a sophisticated knowledge of fire and an elevated cognitive ability and appears at roughly the same time as widespread evidence for symbolic behavior.”

    Compound heated fat-based paints were made at Blombos by 100,000 BC: paints made not only by simply grinding minerals (as earlier hominids sometimes did), but by a more complex process more like the paint-making/formulas of later ancient cultures and civilizations (and like those of later stone age homo sapiens in Africa and Europe/Eurasia); of heating ground ocher mixed with animal fat and charcoal.

    http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-15257259

    Bone harpoons appear in Central Africa as early as ca. 90,000 bc. (a modern tool type) that were used to hunt giant catfish, a type of fish that only lives at depths much too great for a human to stand, which indicates the use of watercraft (likely rafts or early canoes).

    http://forwhattheywereweare.blogspot.com/2013/03/the-katanda-harpoons.html

    Later paleolithic developments by cultures in the general region of the above:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ishango_bone

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebombo_bone

    The significance of the “Howiesons Poort tradition of engraving ostrich eggshell containers (which are dated to 60,000 years ago at Diepkloof Rock Shelter, South Africa) is in part that they were used as containers, and to store water possibly for periods of drought and/or to allow them to occupy drier areas (there is evidence that the 60,000 containers were buried), and the South African Bushmen still use ostrich shell containers in the same way (creating buried stores of water). For such peoples, different subsistence strategies are required seasonally, depending among other factors on aridity.

    In farming cultures in SS Africa, the storage of crops (like grain) is/was required by the seasonal aridity/dry seasons of the various savannah (and savannah, savannah-forest border/dry season forrest, and sahel) regions across Africa.

    • 回复: @Jm8
    , @Jm8
    , @szopen
  228. @res

    The IQ adoption studies, as I specified (all of them if you require yet more specificity). I was not making a race point. Rather the point of how much of a role genetics tended to play in general for IQ compared to things like rich educated parents. Remember how small the shared environment component is for IQ adoption studies.

    举个例子: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minnesota_Twin_Family_Study#Twins_reared_apart
    Some more references here if desired: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7203461

    The link you provide indicates mixed conclusions. There are two things that these studies don’t control. The first one is how different are the environments of those twins raised apart. The second thing, is that in adoption studies, we don’t know what are the IQs of the parents as well as some pre-adoption factors that possibly matter.

    I am assuming the study you are complaining about is this one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minnesota_Transracial_Adoption_Study

    It is kind of a bummer when the only available study disagrees with your views and you have to resort to anecdotal evidence. You should advocate for replication studies to be performed.

    I’m not complaining, at some point, you must understand that you’re the only one that’s making it a personal issue, right?

    It’s not the transracial adoption method that hasn’t been replicated, it’s the Minnesota study’s results. In a 1986 study by Moore et al. It’s the black kids who scored higher than the mixed race ones when adopted by whites. But once again, we don’t know some very important parental and pre-adoption information that must matter.

    As for advocating for replication studies. Lol! I think I can advocate all my life for a lot of things, it won’t change anything and if I could make my voice heard, there are much more important things to advocate for in this world.

  229. Jm8 说:
    @Jm8

    Edis:
    “The earliest modern human/homo sapiens skeletal remains come from Africa (including subsaharan). remains dates ca. 200,000 bc come from Ethiopia and recently, skeletal remains that have been classified early sapiens (or perhaps sapiens-late heidelbergensis transitional) have been found in Morocco (which is indeed above the Sahara) have been redated to ca. 300,000 bc The origin of modern humans likely centered around a savannah/semi arid and arid region of subsaharan (below the Sahara perhaps toward the East) but perhaps also including parts of saharan Africa.)”

    “..storage…is/was required by the seasonal aridity/dry seasons of the various large/expansive savannah (and savannah, savannah-forest border/dry season forrest, and sahel) regions across subsaharan Africa—as I described in an earlier comment above.”

  230. Okechukwu 说:
    @szopen

    I would really like to know what is your definition of “sophisticated ancient structures”. There are a lot of ancient stone buildings and structures in EUrope more than thousand years BC, IIRC predating earliest African similar structures by few centuries at least.

    No anthropologist or historian would agree with you. When they want to study ancient civilizations Northern Europe is never on the itinerary. The apex of ancient Northern European architecture and design is represented by Stonehenge, which is essentially a pile of rocks in comparison to the scintillating, awe-inspiring structures of their contemporaries.

    Second point it’s far from certain than modern human appeared first in SSA. Most of the modern human remains were found in Middle East and North Africa. It could be that modern homo sapiens (as contrasted with old hominids) actually appeared north of Sahara.

    That’s not the scientific or anthropological consensus. I could post links but I’m sure you could look it up yourself.

    Third point is that Europeans couldn’t go into tropical Africa not because of any intellectual problems, but because of deadly diseases. It’s hardly relevant for discussion about intellectual prowess whether one population is more or less resistant to a disease.

    But these diseases were endemic to the African environment. They were much more hostile to survival than, say, cold nights, which would only necessitate bundling up and building a fire.

    Fourth point is that repeating “Europeans were in 60s or 70s” does not make it true. When corrected for FLynn effect, it seems so; but there is ongoing discussion whether FLynn effect actually measures real rise in “g”.

    Ahh…but I bet you have no such skepticism with respect to the published African IQ averages. It’s entirely plausible and in fact probable that white American and European IQ’s were at retardation levels 100 years ago. As Flynn himself pointed out, IQ doesn’t measure native intelligence as such, it measures adaptation to western modernity. That is to say, the values and cultural practices that IQ tests are designed to reward were less prevalent then than they are now.

    Fifth is that more difficult to live environment does not mean it is more challenging to an intelligence. In an environment in which parasites, insects and bugs are aplenty, intelligence is less needed than a strong immune system – such an environment might be less hospitable to humans, more difficult to live in, but it emphatically NOT select for higher intelligence. It might be true (i am not saying it is true, merely that it might be true) that in every environment there are challenges which could be addressed by higher intelligence, however evolution is a multigoal optimization process, and higher intelligence is not costless

    But disease burden was just one challenge among a plethora of challenges in the African environment. Africa had alternating droughts and floods which made farming much more difficult than in a place like Europe, although Africans did adapt. African animals weren’t domesticable. It had little arable land relative to its size. Deserts and jungles covered vast areas. The rivers were generally unnavigable. The Sahara, which as vast and as formidable as any ocean, cut Africa off from the exchange of ideas, technology and innovation that allowed Europeans to ultimately colonize them. It wasn’t because Europeans were smarter. They weren’t.

    Look, there’s a good reason whites were only able to settle in large numbers in Southern Africa. It’s because the southern tip of Africa lies within the southern temperate zone. When the Boers tried to go further north beyond the temperate zone, they failed miserably. They and their animals were killed off by diseases and the soil was too poor to farm. So they fled back to more European-like environment within the temperate zone.

    Sixth is that we actually DO know that for some genes either correlating with intelligence or with brain development their frequency is different in different population, and in fact consistent with known average national IQs (or, to be more precise, was not found to be inconsistent). This does not constitute, obviously, a proof for a biological basis for measured intelligence differences, but it does point that it’s not only skin color which was selected.

    Wrong. Prove it.

    Seventh, it is your claim “humans were fully formed intellectually”, i.e. something you have to prove, and you cannot use it as an argument to disprove any hypothesis.

    You have the burden of proof. Modern human existence in total represents a microsecond in evolutionary timescales. Therefore it’s highly unlikely that early modern humans in Africa were intellectually inferior to present day humans. What’s more, different human populations have been separated from each other for an even shorter period of time. And even then there was continuous gene flow between different populations of humans. So not enough time has elapsed for speciation to occur, which is what would have to happen in order for differentiated cognitive abilities to manifest. It might have taken 1 or 2 million years of total isolation. At this point, of course, it’s never going to happen.

    Finally, it is not true that Eurasia was more hospitable than Africa. Cold zones provide less food and have cold season where in past it was almost impossible to survive without hunting and fishing and more sophisticated toolset for making houses and clothes.

    What you are describing is the arctic and humans never lived there. Eurasia was a lush, pleasant and temperate environment teeming with animals, vegetation and fresh water. Look at their cave paintings. They don’t depict a bleak, frozen landscape. Quite the contrary.

    Humans in every pre-historic environment built dwellings and made garments suitable to that environment. Southern Africa has four seasons (again, it’s in the temperate zone). It can get pretty cold in winters. Consequently black people in Southern Africa wore cold weather cloths and took other steps to contend with cold winters.

    • 回复: @res
    , @szopen
  231. Jm8 说:
    @szopen

    Cont./Edit to my last longer post:
    “The origin of modern humans likely centered around a savannah/semi arid and arid region of subsaharan (below the Sahara perhaps toward the East) but perhaps also including parts of saharan Africa. Also, much of the N. African region now desert/sahara, would have been more savannah-like during much of that early period)”

  232. @Polymath

    Good to know you’re a chess master, by the way. My own chess intuition is not that bad either!

    This was my 1-minute bullet chess game today (I’m black — no pun meant):

    https://www.chess.com/live/game/2313782564

  233. Jm8 说:
    @Jm8

    编辑:
    “…remains dates ca. 200,000 bc come from Ethiopia, at Herto and Omo Kibbish…”

  234. @Jm8

    Yeah. in Haiti, life expectancy was so low before independence that the population was mainly descended from slaves born in Africa and brought in the few years before the revolution. I don’t know exactly where the French were buying the most slaves at this time but I suppose the Congo/Angola element was minimal at this time since the French were well established in the Benin/South-Western Nigeria and Senegal regions in the 1770s-1780s. So, knowing the mercantilist policies of this time, they wouldn’t have allowed other European slave ships to trade slaves from other parts of Africa.

    The other mystery is how far in the hinterland could slaves come from. I know that one of Brazil’s slave revolts was started by literate Muslim Hausas called Malés. So they were bought on the coast but came from very far away from the coast unless they had been captured by the Yoruba during a war against the Fulani expanding southwards.

    Anyway, the Igbo ancestry must be very low in Haiti.

    • 回复: @Jm8
  235. utu 说:
    @res

    You have just concocted this explanation

    I have. Looking at the argument itself I find it reasonable. The first (selected) generation probably has an above average environmental component due to the selection. That “luck” disappearing in the second generation is the basis of the breeder’s equation regression towards the mean decrease. However, the second generation has the full range (both positive and negative) of environmental luck so there is no further decrease in the third generation.

    that is pure hand waving fiction powered by the confirmation bias because in your mind any thought that your hero might be wrong simply can’t germinate. I know that you are an autodidact aficionado in this field but at some point there is time to start thinking for yourself and not just to provide hand waving explanations for opinions of dubious authority.

    Pr(Greg Cochran knows what he is talking about) > Pr(res knows what he is talking about)

    This is the example of what I am saying. In my opinion you may know some things better than Western Hunter because of your earnestness which in long run wins with his arrogance.

  236. @utu

    Thanks. I’m afraid that i just tossed into a conversation I had only glanced at a thought which crossed my mind which was consistent with my view that we know very little from which conclusions about genetic inheritance can be inferred about African IQs. The Flynn Effect presumably – actually obviously – has a long way to go!
    To repeat myself, we know that Africa didn’t have small founder populations which had adapted to living in the Eurasian Ice Age and we also know that African DNA has enormous variety with consequences still largely unexplored. I would happily place a very large bet that we will know by 2030 that the *平均数* sub Saharan genotype assessed as a set of genes for cognitive ability in the sense of g reflects most of today’s one sd difference beetween pre-dysgenic-breeding white Americans and African-Americans.

  237. matt 说:
    @res

    Jesus Christ. I actually thought this might be a productive exchange this time, but I guess not. I’m clearly saying 他们是 able to tell, and social class is one of the main ways they do tell.

    • 回复: @res
  238. @res

    Is this your first experience with Afroapologism? If so, hang on for the ride. If you would like the Cliff Notes version: “It is always someone else’s fault.”

    Not that some of the reasons aren’t real nor that some are not self inflicted. It’s just that there are never solutions whereas other countries routinely find solutions. Somehow. Magically I guess.

    Other countries like Barbados?

    Anyway, that’s not the point. Find a country whose history is comparable to Haiti and let’s talk about it.

    Regarding the third reason, I wonder if the lack of wealthy educated migrants from Europe had anything to do with this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haitian_Revolution#1804_massacre_of_the_French

    Ultimately, the massacre had a long-lasting effect on the view of the Haitian Revolution and helped to create a legacy of racial hostility in Haitian society.

    真有趣。

    Yeah, an eye for an eye. Don’t tell me you have sympathy for those cruel slave owners.

    • 回复: @res
  239. Jm8 说:
    @Afrosapiens

    Congo/Angolan might have been low in some periods, but overall it was/ammounted to a significant component—perhaps a large minority—in Haiti (as it also was in all-most colonies in the Western hemisphere with African populations: incl, the US; Brazil; the British, French, Dutch, and Spanish Caribbean; Mexico, and South America like Guyana/Surinam, and especially among the African slaves in Colombia and Argentina/Uruguay whose slaves were actually mostly Congo/Angolan). In Haitian Voudou there are Congo derived cults, dances, rituals and influences/words in Haitian Creole (and the more heavily African, but also very hybrid—and still somewhat mysterious—Voudou liturgical language called Langay)

    • 回复: @Afrosapiens
  240. Stealth 说:
    @Okechukwu

    Your handle suggests that you probably have an emotional investment in thinking that Chisala is correct.

  241. res 说:
    @Okechukwu

    Sixth is that we actually DO know that for some genes either correlating with intelligence or with brain development their frequency is different in different population, and in fact consistent with known average national IQs (or, to be more precise, was not found to be inconsistent). This does not constitute, obviously, a proof for a biological basis for measured intelligence differences, but it does point that it’s not only skin color which was selected.

    Wrong. Prove it.

    Now that was a persuasive argument by you. But since you asked, here are two of the early IQ SNPs with links to the 1000 Genomes SNP frequency map for each:
    rs9320913 http://popgen.uchicago.edu/ggv/?data=%221000genomes%22&chr=6&pos=98584733
    rs4851266 http://popgen.uchicago.edu/ggv/?data=%221000genomes%22&chr=2&pos=100818479

    Notice the different population frequencies. Feel free to look at other IQ related SNPs.

    QED

    • 回复: @Afrosapiens
    , @Okechukwu
  242. matt 说:
    @res

    And it’s not just a matter of judging, either. The sexual partners that a given person has the opportunity to choose and be chosen from among aren’t ever a random sample of the population at large. It’s not as if one can select a number of people at random and “judge” which ones are more and less intelligent (though such judging no doubt happens). The population of one’s potential sexual partners is already heavily pre-selected, and class and occupation are one of the main ways in which that pre-selection occurs. This is basic stuff. Anyone who has read 贝尔曲线 (or just lived an adult life) should be able to understand it.

  243. @res

    On adoption:

    Some academic publications infer from studies of transracial adoptees’ IQs that East Asian adoptees raised in the West by Whites have higher IQs than Western Whites, and that White adoptees raised by Whites have higher IQs than Black adoptees raised by Whites. Those publications suggest that this is because genetic differences give East Asians a higher mean IQ than Whites, and Whites a higher mean IQ than Blacks. This paper proposes a parsimonious alternative explanation: the apparent IQ advantage of East Asian adoptees is an artifact caused by ignoring the Flynn effect and adoption’s beneficial effect on IQ, and most of the IQ disadvantage of Black adoptees disappears when one allows for attrition in the Minnesota Transracial Adoption Study, and acknowledges the results of other studies. Diagnosing these artifacts suggests a nil hypothesis: East Asian, White, and Black adoptees raised in the same environment would have similar IQs, hinting at a minimal role for genes in racial IQ differences.

    http://www.mdpi.com/2079-3200/5/1/1/htm

  244. utu 说:
    @Afrosapiens

    Peasants in Poland and Russia even though they were in servitude had incomparable better life than slaves and in some cases better life than peasants in the Western Europe where they were emancipated earlier.

    • 回复: @Wizard of Oz
  245. @res

    Now that was a persuasive argument by you. But since you asked, here are two of the early IQ SNPs with links to the 1000 Genomes SNP frequency map for each:
    rs9320913 http://popgen.uchicago.edu/ggv/?data=%221000genomes%22&chr=6&pos=98584733
    rs4851266 http://popgen.uchicago.edu/ggv/?data=%221000genomes%22&chr=2&pos=100818479

    Notice the different population frequencies. Feel free to look at other IQ related SNPs.

    QED

    What are you trying to prove with 2 SNPs of nanometric effect?

    That they haven’t reach fixation as natural selection would predict? Well thanks, but I guess everybody here knew.

    • 回复: @res
    , @szopen
  246. utu 说:
    @Jm8

    So you also understand. Thanks. I am not surprised that Chanda gets exasperated with the commentariat on this website. They are so ideologically driven that simple and sensible argument like this one he made can’t penetrate their belief defense system.

  247. @Jm8

    True, But Haitians tend to refer to Africa as Guinée whereas Latin Americans have more Congo-derived to refer to Africa or Africans. And iirc, the French might have been trading in the Loango/Gabon region in the 1770s-80s, so the Kongo ancestry might actually larger than I first said. Ancestries that were always low though are Upper Guinea, Gold Coast, Bight of Biafra and Mozambique.

    • 回复: @Jm8
  248. Okechukwu 说:
    @szopen

    One more thing: you DO know that Europeans and northern Asians, on average, have larger brains than Sub-Saharan Africans?

    That’s incorrect. You’d have to do a global, large sample size study of brain sizes in order to arrive at any scientifically valid conclusion. No one has done that and no one ever will. Brain sizes do vary. But like intelligence, they vary individually, irrespective of race. Just going to Google images and looking at photos of black people and white people together should indicate to you that studies that purport that black people have smaller heads (i.e., smaller brains) are wildly unreliable. Nevertheless, taken to its proper conclusion your hypothesis posits that black people with big brains are innately smarter than white people with small brains. Am I right?

    I think much of the data that drive racist pseudoscience are drawn from small, often convenient samples to which proper scientific controls were not applied to the sampling. Confirmation bias is rife in science, even on non-racial, non-controversial matters. One can only imagine the kind of work a motivated researcher with supremacist leanings or racial biases is likely to produce. Another thing that happens in science is that organizations get the data they paid for (see Pioneer Fund). That’s how we got scientists funded by the tobacco companies whose research “proved” the health benefits of smoking.

    Every humans needs to breathe, and breathing involves complex systems and organs which are useful in every environment, yet there are genetic differences between Andean Indians or Tibetans and other populations, causing Tibetans to be more adapted to live in higher altitudes.

    Sure. That’s an example of adaptation caused by in situ environmental exigencies. But whether you live in low or high altitudes you still have to think and plan and reason and speak and participate in culture. So nature will not circumscribe the cognitive potential of either group.

    • 回复: @szopen
    , @szopen
  249. res 说:
    @matt

    Sorry about that. But why not just actually talk to them. Do you really think someone needs to use social class as a proxy for IQ?

    • 回复: @matt
  250. @res

    So you (or Flynn, or both) are saying that without IQ tests people are unable to judge the intelligence of the people they spend extensive time with? Wow.

    I have to see how subjective ratings of intelligence correlate with IQ tests. Genuinely. If you have a study like that in store, share it please.

    More importantly, I’d like to see how it replicates cross-culturally.

    • 回复: @res
    , @matt
  251. res 说:
    @Afrosapiens

    Anyway, that’s not the point. Find a country whose history is comparable to Haiti and let’s talk about it.

    My personal favorite is the aerial photos showing the difference in forestation along the Dominican Republic/Haiti border:

    Yeah, an eye for an eye. Don’t tell me you have sympathy for those cruel slave owners.

    Well, not a great deal of sympathy for the slaveowners, but one can argue genocide was not the appropriate response. (BTW, were all the French killed slaveowners?) I was just suggesting it is a bit rich to complain about the lack of European immigrants after making it so clear how welcome they are.

    • 回复: @Afrosapiens
  252. res 说:
    @Afrosapiens

    What are you trying to prove with 2 SNPs of nanometric effect?

    I did prove szopen’s assertion which Okechukwu denied.

    That they haven’t reach fixation as natural selection would predict? Well thanks, but I guess everybody here knew.

    Apparently Okechukwu did not know. You have a curious definition of “everybody.”

    It is interesting (but not surprising) that you chose to respond critically to my factual post rather than address Okechukwu’s incorrect “Wrong.”

    • 回复: @Afrosapiens
    , @Okechukwu
  253. Jm8 说:
    @Afrosapiens

    “Ancestries that were always low though are Upper Guinea, Gold Coast, Bight of Biafra and Mozambique.”

    Yup, that’s true (of the French Caribbean, that is). Gold Coast and the Bight of Biafra (S.E. Nigeria), along with Congo, (all three) are (perhaps the most) significant in the British Caribbean (Jamaica, Barbados, etc)—along, at times, with some Senegambian/Malian (the first three seem to have been the most significant culturally). Gold Coast though, is very low in the US (as Yoruba is also very low in the US and pretty low in most places outside Brazil and Cuba). Whereas in the US (with some regional variation) Congo/Angolan, S.E Nigeria, and in some areas, Senegambian/Malian, and to a lesser extent Sierra Leonian/Liberian are all significant—with smaller amounts from other groups. Louisianna (from the French/Spanish periods) has a lot more Senegambian Malkian than the rest of the US, though such cans be significant in the rest of the US as well

    • 回复: @Jm8
    , @Afrosapiens
  254. Jm8 说:
    @res

    “Where did the word “elite” come from in the following sentence?

    “Then the fact that these children outperform (elite) African Americans was more striking.””

    I brought it up earlier, and it has been mentioned in Chisala’s previous article(s) It seems to have been unnoticed by most. The offspring of elite African Americans do still show indications of regressing to a lower mean than the previous generation and the white average (this is fairly well established I believe in both SAT scores, education, IQ etc.), whereas same is not seen in the second generation of African immigrant groups.

    https://www.unz.com/article/closing-the-black-white-iq-gap-debate-part-3/

    “The mere possibility that the African immigrants in our experiment could be an elite, unrepresentative group does not matter in itself (I don’t know how many ways to emphasize this point, which is the subject of the most popular straw man among those who keep arguing that the immigrants are “not representative” of their source populations). It does not matter *because Jensen gave us a prediction specifically concerning a sample of exclusively elite, “unrepresentative” Blacks.*

    Reading from the same Jensen paper, we are told this about elite Black Americans:

    “Matching Black and White children for the geographical areas of their homes, the schools they attend, and other finer grade socioeconomic indicators again reduces the mean group IQ difference but does not eliminate it. Black children from the best areas and schools (those producing the highest average scores) still average slightly lower than do White children with the lowest socioeconomic indicators (Herrnstein & Murray, 1994, pp. 286–289; Jensen, 1998b, pp. 357–360). This is an anomaly for the culture-only theory but is explained by genetic theory through regression to the mean.”

    “……。
    We know that children of native Black Americans earning \$200,000 a year in family income score lower on SAT scores than children of Whites getting only \$20,000 in family income (\$10, 000 per parent!). We also know that the Nigerian income in the US is only \$57,000, which is lower than the non-Hipspanic white income, and yet their children still score at least as high as children of Whites, which is the opposite of Jensen’s predicted result. “

    And I replied to Utu:
    “”“His point is that if Africans in the US are part of African elites their children according to the regression to the mean (who care which mean) will have lower IQ than their parents because their parents as members of elites were above the mean. Yet these children outperform African American children who have 20-25% white admixture.””

    Also that they show signs of performing above the immigrant generation (and performing above the white mean—some ethnic/subgroups of them that is—, at least in the UK, and at least not below it in the US).

    • 回复: @Jm8
  255. matt 说:
    @res

    Whether I think they should or not, people do use class as a proxy for IQ (and other things). It’s called assortative mating. Class (as I explained 此处) also heavily shapes the population of people you talk to in the first place. Most of the people I socially interact with are from my general class background, and I’m sure the same is true for you, as it is for most people.

    • 回复: @res
  256. Jm8 说:
    @Jm8

    To Afrosapiens:

    续:

    Your point about the Haitian word for Africa (Ginen) is interesting (and it is the more commonly used word there for the ancestral home o=f Africa. Some Vodous songs and legends also refer to Congo—and some subsets/sects/ancestral cults of Voudou are explicitly and self consciously Congo—others Fon, other “Guinea” or occasionally/more rarely Yoruba. Jamaican folk culture (and a few old folk songs) refers to both/either Congo and Guinea (West Africa), sometimes even referrfencing specific ethnic regions (Ibo, Congo,—in the Caribbean and Brazil the Yoruba are often referred to as the “Nago”, after the part of Yorubaland bordering Dahomey, from which many Yorubas were taken.

    Another place with a somewhat significant number of Gold Coast/Akan slaves was Suriname/Guyana (along also with many Fon./Dahomeans and BaKongo), where all three groups strongly influenced the black Maroon cultures (Djuka, Saramacca) formed by escaped slaves in the hinterland.

  257. res 说:
    @Afrosapiens

    I have to see how subjective ratings of intelligence correlate with IQ tests. Genuinely. If you have a study like that in store, share it please.

    Not a great study IMHO, but the only one I saw (not in store, had to look) along those lines: http://www.rhetorik.ch/Menschenkenntnis/borkenau_liebler2.pdf
    https://www.researchgate.net/publication/232504651_Convergence_of_Stranger_Ratings_of_Personality_and_Intelligence_With_Self-Ratings_Partner_Ratings_and_Measured_Intelligence

    They give correlations between the following five “measures”: Measured intelligence, Self-rating, Acquaintance rating, Strangers (sound film), Strangers (silent film).

    In Table 3 we see the correlations of Measured intelligence with the other four in order: 0.29, 0.31, 0.38, 0.12

    That is lower than I would have expected. The things that really jumped out at me were:
    – Self-rating only correlated 0.29 with measured intelligence.
    – Strangers (sound film) had the highest correlation with measure intelligence and was MUCH better than silent film.

    There were some higher correlations like self-rating vs. acquaintance rating at 0.52. That one really makes me wonder.

    One reason I jumped on this point is I think some of the IQ test haters here would argue the subjective ratings are more accurate than the IQ tests.

    More importantly, I’d like to see how it replicates cross-culturally.

    Indeed. I think we agree that would be poorly.

    P.S. More on the unreliability (correlations 0.20-0.25) of self-reports of IQ: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/1467-6494.00023/abstract

    • 回复: @Afrosapiens
  258. Jm8 说:
    @Jm8

    编辑: ”
    “…Chisala’s article(s). It seems to have gone unnoticed by many in this thread.”

  259. Okechukwu 说:
    @res

    Now that was a persuasive argument by you. But since you asked, here are two of the early IQ SNPs with links to the 1000 Genomes SNP frequency map for each:
    rs9320913 http://popgen.uchicago.edu/ggv/?data=%221000genomes%22&chr=6&pos=98584733
    rs4851266 http://popgen.uchicago.edu/ggv/?data=%221000genomes%22&chr=2&pos=100818479

    Notice the different population frequencies. Feel free to look at other IQ related SNPs.

    This is junk. You made the claim that there are racial hierarchies in intelligence based on the frequency or infrequency of IQ related SNP’s (no such thing even exists). That idea, though normative in certain Internet echo-chambers, is a staggeringly extraordinary claim in the real world. One that requires staggeringly extraordinary evidence to substantiate it. That evidence needs to be provided. Once provided it will be subjected to rigorous peer reviews which will either vindicate it or falsify it.

    Now, that’s how science works.

    • 回复: @res
    , @szopen
  260. res 说:
    @matt

    Technically speaking “assortative mating” has the following definition: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assortative_mating

    Assortative mating is a mating pattern and a form of sexual selection in which individuals with similar phenotypes mate with one another more frequently than would be expected under a random mating pattern. Examples of similar phenotypes include, but are not limited to, body size, skin coloration/pigmentation, and age.

    Arguably social class is not a phenotype, but I am happy to give you that as a reasonable example of something subject to assortative mating.

    I think (without evidence) that historically people assortatively mated more by class than IQ. I think there was less use of class as an IQ proxy than as a desirable trait in and of itself. Less sure about the present.

    This has some relevance: https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007%2F978-3-319-09384-0_3

    • 回复: @matt
  261. matt 说:
    @Afrosapiens

    The population of people whose IQ I’m in a position to subjectively rate is already highly stratified by class, occupation, education and other things, all of which are highly correlated with IQ. So even if subjective ratings are generally accurate, and even if they’re cross-culturally valid, there’s probably a restriction of range problem.

    • 回复: @Afrosapiens
  262. @res

    My personal favorite is the aerial photos showing the difference in forestation along the Dominican Republic/Haiti border:

    You have weird taste. What’s funny with the fact that Haiti is a lot more densely populated than the DR and its inhabitants use wood as combustible because it’s cheaper than oil?

    Tell me, you’re not amused by poverty right?

    but one can argue genocide was not the appropriate response.

    Neither was slavery and associated torture an appropriate response to satisfying greedy instincts.

    (BTW, were all the French killed slaveowners?)

    Who cares? I can tell with complete certainty that no abolitionist was killed in the process.

    I was just suggesting it is a bit rich to complain about the lack of European immigrants after making it so clear how welcome they are.

    Who complained again? Is it me plainly explaining a situation or you inventing the word Afroapologism for those explanations?

  263. @res

    I did prove szopen’s assertion which Okechukwu denied.

    Not in any meaningful way.

    Apparently Okechukwu did not know. You have a curious definition of “everybody.”

    It is interesting (but not surprising) that you chose to respond critically to my factual post rather than address Okechukwu’s incorrect “Wrong.”

    If you re-read his response, you’ll notice that he acknowledges no differing natural selection on intelligence between populations.

    So his “wrong” is correct, unless you cherry-pick two genes that make your point (reminds me of somebody) without bringing any substance to your argument.

    • 回复: @res
  264. @Jm8

    I read a couple years ago that Igbo ancestry is dominant in the upper South of the US. Jamaica is very influenced by Akan culture.

    The least tractable part of the slave trade is the Dutch one. The Dutch had lots of trading posts on Africa’s western littoral, namely in the gold coast. But it’s hard to tell where those slaves were sold in the Americas apart from their own colonies which accounted for a tiny share of the transatlantic trade.

    • 回复: @Jm8
  265. res 说:
    @Afrosapiens

    Not in any meaningful way.

    That is a fascinating spin. So I did prove it, but somehow that was not meaningful, or …?

    Both of you need to go back and look at the bolded text from his comment 234–which I reproduced in my comment 245. I very clearly proved that was true.

    But go ahead, move the goalposts some more.

    • 回复: @Afrosapiens
  266. Jm8 说:
    @Afrosapiens

    ‘I read a couple years ago that Igbo ancestry is dominant in the upper South of the US. Jamaica is very influenced by Akan culture.”

    Maybe not quite dominant (but perhaps), but quite significant and influential especially in East Virginia.

    “The least tractable part of the slave trade is the Dutch one. The Dutch had lots of trading posts on Africa’s western littoral, namely in the gold coast.”

    Suriname was a Dutch colony, and many Gold Coast Akan were sent there (where they, along with Dahomeans, BaKongo—and smaller numbers of others) helped formed the Maroon, and other Afro-descendant cultures there, so that does make sense.

  267. matt 说:
    @res

    I think (without evidence) that historically people assortatively mated more by class than IQ. I think there was less use of class as an IQ proxy than as a desirable trait in and of itself. Less sure about the present.

    If that’s true it only further strengthens my/Flynn’s point.

    • 回复: @res
  268. res 说:
    @Okechukwu

    You made the claim that there are racial hierarchies in intelligence based on the frequency or infrequency of IQ related SNP’s

    I made no such claim here. Please pay at least cursory attention to who exactly you are talking to.

    What I did was proved szopen’s comment which you bolded and I reproduced in my comment 245 was correct. Not wrong as you incorrectly said.

    还是那句话:

    Sixth is that we actually DO know that for some genes either correlating with intelligence or with brain development their frequency is different in different population

  269. @utu

    One of the more interesting snippets from Geoffrey Blainey’s “Triumph of the Nomad” that my memory retains is his observation that the average Aboriginal’s standard of living was probably better than that of a Polish peasant circa 1800. (Blainey was – and still is – a very highly respected economic and general historian who realised when preparing a lecture course that he wasn’t covering Australua’s tens of thousands of years of human habitation before 1788 and he set out to remedy the omission).

    • 回复: @utu
  270. @res

    Ok, those correlations are low, that means common views of intelligence are not that much related to IQ.

    One reason I jumped on this point is I think some of the IQ test haters here would argue the subjective ratings are more accurate than the IQ tests.

    What is a “IQ test hater”? You’re still bringing emotional language into this conversation. I bet you’d acknowledge the numerous flaws of IQ testing and the uncertainties surrounding their actual meaning if there were no racial differences in scores.

    As for subjective rating, I think body language, eye contact and facial expressions can give minimal clues, not necessarily on intelligence per se but on traits like self-confidence and conscientiousness that likely enhance test performance. For the rest I’m agnostic, I think intelligence is subjective and undefinable, and that it’s foolish to reduce it to a number.

    Indeed. I think we agree that would be poorly.

    Yeah, finally…

    • 回复: @res
  271. @matt

    I never attempted to rate my relatives’ intelligence. I can tell some are goofy, clumsy, witty, thoughtful or conscientious but I wouldn’t judge their brain power based on that.

    I’ve been raised with many people whose brains were just non-functional gold bars in my opinion. I have no idea what their IQ is, but I can tell for sure that they’re helpless anytime they’re not in their comfort zone not knowing basic housekeeping stuff for instance. For this reason, I’ve learned not to rely on signs that link to economic status to judge a person’s actual intelligence/adaptability.

    • 回复: @matt
  272. res 说:
    @matt

    Fair enough. My primary objection in the first place was the use of class as a proxy for intelligence rather than experience with the individual either directly or mediated through gossip in a small community.

  273. @res

    That is a fascinating spin. So I did prove it, but somehow that was not meaningful, or …?

    Both of you need to go back and look at the bolded text from his comment 234–which I reproduced in my comment 245. I very clearly proved that was true.

    But go ahead, move the goalposts some more.

    您必须做出选择。

    You can be an adult discussing with adults and add substance to this conversation. Or you can be a child just trying to be right even if it involves making arguments that are only true in a meaningless literal interpretation.

    If you chose the latter option, you’re admitting that it’s not worth to talk to you.

    • 回复: @res
  274. matt 说:
    @Afrosapiens

    No doubt socioeconomic status is a very imperfect predictor of intelligence, but it’s a predictor nonetheless. My point was intended to support yours, and it’s simply this: If I am in a position to subjectively rate someone’s intelligence, I usually need to engage in some sustained social interaction with them. The people I normally engage in sustained social interaction with are mostly from my general social background, and are therefore mostly of similar IQ. That means the range of IQ among the people I normally interact with is restricted. When restriction of range occurs, the correlation between two variables can be expected to drop (this is why, among NBA players, height doesn’t do a tremendous job of predicting basketball skill). So, assuming a modest correlation between subjective rating of intelligence of 陌生人 and measured IQ, this correlation can be expected to be even more modest in most real-life cases of subjective estimation of intelligence.

    The problem, as you point out, probably gets even worse when you consider that blacks and whites would have been making (at least slightly) cross-cultural subjective estimations of one anothers’ intelligence.

    • 回复: @Afrosapiens
  275. res 说:
    @Afrosapiens

    So using factual evidence to disprove a blatantly incorrect statement is failing to add substance. Fascinating. Especially when that incorrect statement was followed by the words: “Prove it.”

    Please help me to understand how to distinguish a “meaningless literal interpretation” from a “correct reading of someone’s words”? The bolded words from szopen were very clear. As was “Wrong.” Yet I am somehow wrong for taking those words at face value. Again, fascinating.

    BTW, “you can be a child” is not exactly taking the high road here.

    • 回复: @Afrosapiens
  276. @res

    So using factual evidence to disprove a blatantly incorrect statement is failing to add substance. Fascinating. Especially when that incorrect statement was followed by the words: “Prove it.”

    Please help me to understand how to distinguish a “meaningless literal interpretation” from a “correct reading of someone’s words”? The bolded words from szopen were very clear. As was “Wrong.” Yet I am somehow wrong for taking those words at face value. Again, fascinating.

    Your attempt at verbosity won’t make you shine in the eyes of a lawyer. A meaningless is something that adds something to the debates, like proving that the thousands of genes that influence intelligent have different allele frequencies between races. Not showing two SNPs like “szopen’s right, Okechukwu is wrong, so there”. You understand how an adult reasons?

    BTW, “you can be a child” is not exactly taking the high road here.

    What else do you think your attitude deserves?

    • 回复: @res
    , @szopen
  277. Maybe the mystery has been solved:

    Shorter Isn’t Better
    … Scrabble has been a government-sanctioned sport in Nigeria since the 1990s. Tournaments get corporate sponsorship and offer big cash prizes. Results are reported in the media. When the 32-year-old Jighere captured the 2015 world championship in Perth, Australia, he received a congratulatory call from Nigeria’s president.

    除此之外:
    Men better at Scrabble as women won’t waste time practising useless skills, finds study

    • 回复: @Afrosapiens
  278. @matt

    好吧。

    Do you know what is the actual spread of IQ within different social classes? I mean, with an income/IQ correlation of only 0.4, IQ doesn’t select for wealth (or the other way around, after all) anywhere close to the level on which height selects for basketball.

    • 回复: @matt
  279. @Hippopotamusdrome

    The same could be said about Jamaican sprinters and Russian chess champions. But HBD’s position is that no government intervention can do anything on about any outcome if natural ability is lacking.

    • 同意: utu
    • 回复: @MarkinLA
  280. utu 说:
    @Wizard of Oz

    I do not know this book but I would not be surprised if there was some grain of truth. The servitude of the feudal system in Poland and Russia was getting worse with time. In 15-16 century peasants had to work 1-2 days per week to pay for the land they were leasing for their own use but in 18 c century it could have been even 7 days per week. And obviously their freedom was very limited in comparison to Aboriginal nomads. On the other hand I would think peasants’ diet was better.

    It is interesting that land owners used similar rationalization to justify the system as American slave owners:

    “whoever believes that Polish folk [peasants] were slaves or believes they were unhappy is wrong or is making their judgement based on appearances (like foreign papers did) as they are accusing our ancestors or us of barbarism.” (1830)

    “a belief that we might be poorer, but more noble and of higher moral values, and, in addition, we live more in accordance with nature, did not only serve as an excuse for their own backwardness [but also] as a tool for the protection of national pride.”

    But I do not think the feudal servitude was comparable to American slavery. Peasants could not be sold or separated from families and there was some quote system that allowed some to move to cities.

    • 回复: @Afrosapiens
    , @szopen
  281. matt 说:
    @Afrosapiens

    .4 is actually pretty high for the social sciences, but, no, the spread isn’t tremendously large (which is related to one of the points I made 以上)。 看一眼 Table 1 on p. 17

    • 回复: @Afrosapiens
  282. In 1900, in America, agriculture was the largest industry employing almost half the workforce.

    Today, in Nigeria, agriculture is the largest industry employing more than half the work force.

    In 1900, Americans are estimated to have had an average IQ of 69.

    Today, Nigerians have been estimated to have an average IQ of between 70 and 80.

    Does this not suggest that the difference today in IQ between Americans and Nigerians has something to do with environment and occupation?

    Apparently, no one here seems to think this an important or even interesting question.

    How strange are the Unzites in their obsession with the supposed intellectual inferiority of Africans, which precludes the possibility that whatever it is that IQ tests measure is enhanced in a society dominated by bureaucratic, commercial and technical activities, whereas perhaps quite different aptitudes, for example, being able to distinguish a bull from a cow, or a hen from a rooster, are more evident in an economy dominated by rural and agricultural pursuits.

    • 回复: @utu
    , @Santoculto
  283. @utu

    And you’re talking about American slavery, which was kind compared to French slavery in Haiti that was basically a death penalty. That’s why I was flabbergasted when some dude above said some central European peoples suffered harsher treatment than Haitians.

    The worst part of slavery in Haiti was that the island produced no food, all the land was cultivated for cash crops and the slaves worked in starvation, seven days a week, from sunup to sundown, and were subjected to all kinds of brutality and indignity.

    But I think it’s irrelevant to what Haiti became afterwards, just shocked at the analogy.

    • 回复: @utu
    , @Wizard of Oz
  284. res 说:
    @Afrosapiens

    Anyone who wants to try more SNPs is free to. That’s why I included the frequency browser link. Perhaps someone can even cherry pick some that don’t vary (much) across the world. If you have paid any attention to genetics at all you should realize that SNP alleles tend to vary between individuals and across populations. Variation pretty much defines why a particular genetic location is considered a SNP (Single Nucleotide 多态性) 首先。

    But since you want something more comprehensive perhaps this will be of interest: https://www.unz.com/jthompson/genetics-of-racial-differences-in-intelligence-updated/

    BTW, linking interesting related material is a good way to add substance to a debate. Quibbling about “meaningless literal interpretation”, not so much.

    Adults don’t say “Wrong” to something that isn’t and then let others try to wriggle out of it in a very lawyer like fashion. I’m curious, have you ever used “meaningless literal interpretation” in a legal argument? Did it work?

    • 回复: @Afrosapiens
    , @Jm8
  285. @matt

    .4 is actually pretty high for the social sciences, but, no, the spread isn’t tremendously large (which is related to one of the points I made above). Take a look at Table 1 on p. 17

    Meh… Are you sure that adding “for a social science” makes a correlation of 0.4 more meaningful? Finance and economics commonly find correlations above 0.8. It’s rare in psychology, but psychology is just… Psychology. lol.

    only a 10 points gap between the bottom and the top third leaves room for a lot of overlap between social classes and is low compared to the differences in quality of life between those categories. I think the IQ/SES relationship is not linear and there is a level of wealth over which money doesn’t make a difference in IQ anymore (I don’t know what this level is). On the contrary, I think smaller environmental inputs can improve IQ in larger proportion in low SES populations. But that’s another topic.

    What I mean to say is that there are no subjective ways to estimate someone’s IQ in satisfyingly accurate way. And this is a problem for any selection scenario about IQ if humans never had the ability to even indirectly assess each other’s IQ.

    • 回复: @res
    , @matt
  286. Tyrion 说:
    @Afrosapiens

    你是认真的吗?

    Yes, I mean the USSR and even the Nazis…which is all a lot more recent than Haitian independence.

    • 回复: @Afrosapiens
  287. res 说:
    @Afrosapiens

    I think the IQ/SES relationship is not linear and there is a level of wealth over which money doesn’t make a difference in IQ anymore (I don’t know what this level is). On the contrary, I think smaller environmental inputs can improve IQ in larger proportion in low SES populations. But that’s another topic.

    Another area where we agree. The fit of relationships like that is frequently improved by taking the logarithm of any monetary variable (e.g. income, wealth, GDP). I expect you know that already, but it is worth emphasizing because it largely eliminates the need to worry about a max since variation at the high end is so muted by taking the log, and taking the log also increases the relative size of the low end variation.

    • 回复: @Afrosapiens
  288. @Tyrion

    Yes, I mean the USSR and even the Nazis…which is all a lot more recent than Haitian independence.

    Ok, so you’re not serious.

    The USSR and Nazi Germany had their Gulag/Concentration camps. But only a tiny a minority of people would die there. The rest were living normal life, if we ignore the hardships of the war and the occasional privations of a socialist system. Some Eastern Europeans are nostalgic of communism.

    Colonial Haiti was a concentration camp, the whole colony. The population had to be constantly replenished by new arrivals to replace the dead slaves whose life expectancy was 4 years once on the island. But that’s not what explains Haiti’s current situation, I explained some reasons above, and among those reasons, I think political instability and corruption is the main one, although trade isolation and the financial reparations for independence surely did not give Haiti a head start.

    • 回复: @utu
    , @Tyrion
  289. matt 说:
    @Afrosapiens

    I don’t know who you think you’re arguing with. It isn’t me, as everything I’ve said only supports what you’re saying.

    关于这个,

    I think the IQ/SES relationship is not linear and there is a level of wealth over which money doesn’t make a difference in IQ anymore (I don’t know what this level is).

    You’re certainly correct, since when you go up to higher levels of SES you will run into range restriction, which will cause the IQ/SES correlation to drop.

    • 回复: @Afrosapiens
  290. @res

    Perhaps someone can even cherry pick some that don’t vary (much) across the world.

    Who would do that? There are thousands of SNPs that influence intelligence.

    If you have paid any attention to genetics at all you should realize that SNP alleles tend to vary between individuals and across populations. Variation pretty much defines why a particular genetic location is considered a SNP (Single Nucleotide Polymorphism) in the first place.

    Yes? And? Are you trying to teach me something that I already know?

    But since you want something more comprehensive perhaps this will be of interest: https://www.unz.com/jthompson/genetics-of-racial-differences-in-intelligence-updated/

    What’s that piece of garbage? LOL at that guy wondering why you can’t predict an individual’s IQ based on SNPs but you can predict a population’s. Indeed, that’s hella paradoxical, one of those paradoxes for which only pseudoscience has the secret recipe.

    There are many things that are needed to make any conclusion on group differences.

    1- predicting individual IQ from SNPs would be an important first step.
    2- replicating GWAS hits in other populations would be even more informative
    3- “GWASing” other populations would surely reveal a lot of novel SNPs.

    BTW, linking interesting related material is a good way to add substance to a debate. Quibbling about “meaningless literal interpretation”, not so much.

    Linking interesting material, for sure. Linking two SNPs out of thousands, not at all.

    Adults don’t say “Wrong” to something that isn’t and then let others try to wriggle out of it in a very lawyer like fashion. I’m curious, have you ever used “meaningless literal interpretation” in a legal argument? Did it work?

    Adults know how not to waste words on arguments that aren’t worth it. Secondly, yes, impertinent remarks usually don’t have that much success in courts.

    • 回复: @utu
    , @Wizard of Oz
  291. @matt

    I don’t know who you think you’re arguing with. It isn’t me, as everything I’ve said only supports what you’re saying.

    No offense intended sorry. But since we agree and I don’t like to agree, I find some little things to quibble about, that’s my specialty.

    • 同意: res
  292. @res

    Another area where we agree. The fit of relationships like that is frequently improved by taking the logarithm of any monetary variable (e.g. income, wealth, GDP). I expect you know that already, but it is worth emphasizing because it largely eliminates the need to worry about a max since variation at the high end is so muted by taking the log, and taking the log also increases the relative size of the low end variation.

    Yes, but I’d prefer that you keep it to yourself when we agree. It’s not funny.

  293. utu 说:
    @Afrosapiens

    What’s that piece of garbage? LOL at that guy wondering why you can’t predict an individual’s IQ based on SNPs but you can predict a population’s.

    I kind of felt sorry for this guy Davide Piffer that he let somebody set him up for such a folly that at minimum will destroy any prospects for a normal career in the field unless he was already compromised enough to be just a hatcher man of Ulster Institute. But then he showed up here commenting and my empathy evaporated. With 9 SNPs frequencies he got 80% correlation on circa 30 countries and what is interesting he found randomly other SNPs that even correlated better and this somehow failed to turn the red light in his head. This a perfect example of spurious correlation. The gods of nature are very generous and often very obliging. You pray for high correlation and they provide. For the sample of 30 countries one can find SNPs that will correlate with abortion rates, divorce rates, alcohol per capita, lunch time, basically any set of 30 random numbers like the sum of last week lottery numbers. Faith moves mountains. It is sad that this kind faith makes people like Thompson so gullible.

    • 回复: @Afrosapiens
  294. utu 说:
    @CanSpeccy

    Does this not suggest that the difference today in IQ between Americans and Nigerians has something to do with environment and occupation?

    Absolutely. Ron Unz article on the Richard Lynn’s book, I think, shows some data of differences between rural and city population in some European countries. Even in countries that suppose to have universal educational system. If it is not in the Unz article I must have read it somewhere else. But I think it is a pretty common knowledge though inconvenient the the IQ cultists.

    Where do they get creatures like Richard Lynn from? How do you spawn them? What is his IQ?

    你可能会喜欢这样:
    https://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2016/04/08/nothing-but-us-big-fat-chickens-around-here/

    • 回复: @CanSpeccy
  295. utu 说:
    @Afrosapiens

    You should stick around here not just for Chanda. The deplorability ratio (DQ) of unz,com is begging to be reduced.

  296. szopen 说:
    @Okechukwu

    Sure, there is no testing of all blacks and all whites and all asians in the world. However, this difference in sizes is not denied even by scientists who argue AGAINST innate racial differences in intelligence. See for example Nisbett “All Brains are the Same Color”:

    There is, for example, the evidence that brain size is correlated with intelligence, and that blacks have smaller brains than whites. But the brain size difference between men and women is substantially greater than that between blacks and whites, yet men and women score the same, on average, on I.Q. tests. Likewise, a group of people in a community in Ecuador have a genetic anomaly that produces extremely small head sizes — and hence brain sizes. Yet their intelligence is as high as that of their unaffected relatives.

    Saying “pseudoscience” about those findings reveal that you do not know much about the science;
    Saying about confirmation bias – it’s true, but remember the most famous attempt at proving “racist bias” (by this charlatan Gould) was shown to be based on Gould’s wishful thinking, incorrect measurements and his falsifying the quotes, and – in the end – proved that it was Gould who was biased.

    It’s true that the brain sizes are sometimes estimated indirectly, by measuring head sizes, as in study of Brody (of 20.000 cranias, one other study followed 50.000 children – FIFTY THOUSAND), and sometimes they use MRI. However it is not true that samples were small, or smaller than usual in such studies.

    “Just going to Google images and looking at photos of black people and white people together ” is laughable. Trying to use google image to refute scientific studies is beyond critique.

    Finally, as for your claim:

    Nevertheless, taken to its proper conclusion your hypothesis posits that black people with big brains are innately smarter than white people with small brains. Am I right?

    那是不对的。
    (1) This is not _my_ hypothesis
    (2) THe correlation between brain size and intelligence is between 0.2 (when measured by indirect methods such as measuring head circumference) and 0.4 (when measured by MRI).
    (3) I have wrote, and I quote myself here: “Obviously, this does not mean the innate intelligence is higher (it was postulated that, IIRC and don’t kill me if I remember it wrong larger brains evolved because of there being less light in the north, so the demand on visual system was larger)”.

    The fact is that studies show brain size average difference. This can be explained either by higher intelligence in whites, or by different brain structure (as postulated by Pearce and Dunbar, who argued that in the north there is less light,so northern populations needed larger brain structures to deal with visual stimuli). Both explanation require admitting that, in fact, the different environments produces differences in complex organ.

    If, however, bigger brains in whites (and even bigger in north Asians) are indication of innately higher intelligence, then it still does not mean that EVERY man with bigger brain is innately more intelligent with EVERY man with smaller brain. The correlation is, at best, 0.4 (in non-clinical samples). Meaning that you can say something about large groups of healthy people, not about the individuals. In fact I am embarassed that I have to explain such a basic fact.

    • 回复: @Okechukwu
    , @RaceRealist88
  297. szopen 说:
    @Okechukwu

    But whether you live in low or high altitudes you still have to think and plan and reason and speak and participate in culture. So nature will not circumscribe the cognitive potential of either group.

    Once again, this does not mean selection pressures on intelligence will be the same. Energy is not free. For example, as you know by environment we can understand also social enviornment, including pressures from sexual selection. Women all around the world seem to – on average – prefer higher men. That means that all around the world there was pressure for men to get higher. Yet there are innate differences in height, and we are not all 10 feet tall giants. Why? Because MANY goals at the same times have to be fulfilled, with satisfying many constraints.

    Similarly, better strength would be good in any environment. Yet there are innate differences in muscle structure between some populations.

    To repeat myself: it does not matter that intelligence is useful in every environment, because there are also other selective pressures.

  298. szopen 说:
    @Afrosapiens

    for some genes either correlating with intelligence or with brain development their frequency is different in different population, and in fact consistent with known average national IQs (or, to be more precise, was not found to be inconsistent). This does not constitute, obviously, a proof for a biological basis for measured intelligence differences

    Do you see what my claim was?
    (1) There are genes (“some”, ie not all, but few) correlating with intelligence which frequence differs in different population
    (2) res shown this is true for two genes
    (3) res then linked you an article with further links showing that the same could be done for more genes.

    IE yes, res has proven that “for 一些 genes” etc. No one claimed that this was done for all genes, and i have specifically written is DOES NOT CONSTITUTE A PROOF of biological basis for measured intelligence differences. I have written “obviously” because I thought no one in his/hers right mind would try to claim otherwise (because, amongst other thing, a dozen and half genes is not much). Why you are, despite that, try to attack the strawman is beyond me.

    • 回复: @Afrosapiens
  299. szopen 说:
    @Okechukwu

    “That’s not the scientific or anthropological consensus. ”
    I did not wrote that it is scientific consensus. I specifically wrote “it COULD be”, ie “it is possible” and not “there is a consensus that…”.

    Listen, I am not a native English speaker, but I really hoped I have clearly written what I claim and what I claim not.

    “But these diseases were endemic to the African environment. They were much more hostile to survival than, say, cold nights, which would only necessitate bundling up and building a fire. ”

    For God’s sake, do I really have to repeat myself?
    Sure, diseases were deadly and more hostile to survival. So in order to counter this, you had to have stronger immune system or other ways to deal with it. Higher intelligence was not amongst them. Energy is not free. Stronger immune system is not free. Intelligence is not free.

    “Ahh…but I bet you have no such skepticism with respect to the published African IQ averages”
    You lose your bet.

    ” African animals weren’t domesticable”
    This Diamond’s claim is absurdly wrong and is based on the fact, that no one domesticated them.

    “What you are describing is the arctic and humans never lived there. Eurasia was a lush, pleasant and temperate environment teeming with animals, vegetation and fresh water. ”
    You are wrong. There are less species, less biomass and less food in the north than in the south. The hunger was rampant and human densities were for generations lower in northern Europe than in the the south.

    “it’s highly unlikely that early modern humans in Africa were intellectually inferior to present day humans. What’s more, different human populations have been separated from each other for an even shorter period of time. And even then there was continuous gene flow between different populations of humans. So not enough time has elapsed for speciation to occur, which is what would have to happen in order for differentiated cognitive abilities to manifest.”

    WHo is saying about speciation?!? Why you are attacking a strawman?
    Moreover, what you are claiming is that basically all observed variation in physical appearance is impossible too; all observed genetical differences in height sizes and other non-psychological traits are impossible too. After all, if there was continuous gene flow and not enough time for differences emerging. Yet such differences DID emerged, hence your claim is wrong.

    And just asking – you know about Belyayev foxes, right? Because Belyayev have shown that under strict selection, radical changes can be very quickly achieved in breeding program – if that would be humans, you could achieve radical effects within mere 500 years.

    • 回复: @Jm8
  300. szopen 说:
    @Jm8

    Thanks a lot. so it was “northern Africa + Ethiopia + middle east”. Still no tropical jungles.

    • 回复: @Jm8
  301. szopen 说:
    @Okechukwu

    ” You made the claim that there are racial hierarchies in intelligence based on the frequency or infrequency of IQ related SNP’s ”

    Neither res or I have made such claim. If you actually read my claim, I specifically wrote that 明显 the fact that some genes who were found to be correlated with IQ differ in frequencies in different population does not constitute a proof.

  302. szopen 说:
    @Afrosapiens

    ” proving that the thousands of genes that influence intelligent have different allele frequencies between races”

    SInce when “some” equals “thousands”?!?

    • 回复: @Afrosapiens
  303. szopen 说:
    @utu

    “Peasants could not be sold”

    Actually, there is plenty of evidence that nobles were selling their peasants.

    • 回复: @Afrosapiens
  304. @Afrosapiens

    I’m not sure what you were implying in your third par but it wouldn’t strike me as odd that it could appear predictable from SNP frequencies that e.g. Kalenjin athletes would be far better middle distance runners on average than Inuit (actually just about everyone) but that the way genes worked to produce the results would be so far mysterious still that no prediction could be made about individual performance or ranking. I trust you enjoy the fact that you are not the only nitpicker on this thread.

    • 回复: @res
    , @Afrosapiens
  305. Santoculto 说:
    @CanSpeccy

    I think you still don’t understand that seems impossible (for whites) to score so lower on average. You know comparative studies among populations and races happen since the beginning of XX century namely for army. If whites in that time REALLY have a avg IQ around 70 the avg IQ of afro-Americans must be even lower!! Get it?

    I believe it’s naive to think that early period of application of IQ tests was extremely perfect in all its variables. Also bear in mind that seems what matter is the hierarchical distribution of scores and not the scores itself because we know IQ as well other tests have a fundamental comparative nature, it’s not like weight balance.

    • 回复: @Santoculto
  306. szopen 说:
    @matt

    Sorry for replying so late. I am reading this thread occassionaly, during breaks from work.

    Yes, you are right that postulating only lower-IQ mated with slaves is not that convincing. However, my point was not just about lower class whites, but also that whites in the south seem to have a bit lower average IQ than US whites overall. All in all, I must say that I am not satisfied by that kind of explanation and, as for now, I am not sure what to make of this.

    • 回复: @matt
  307. Jm8 说:
    @szopen

    “Thanks a lot. so it was “northern Africa + Ethiopia + middle east”. Still no tropical jungles.”

    Most of Africa is not “tropical Jungle”, but rather seasonally dry savannah, woodland savannah (also seasonally arid)—and some sahel-loke environment. True Jungles/wet tropical forests are a comparatively small part of the continent ent, as I explained in detail.
    I (and my sources) also mentioned (several) early modern human sites South Africa, and the Semliki region (which is in East Central Africa) One site was in the middle East and it was later than most of the others. You said most of them were in the middle East, and that was not the case.

    • 回复: @Jm8
    , @szopen
  308. Jm8 说:
    @res

    The allele patterns determined/proposed in the source do not quite/exactly fit the racial hierarchies often proposed.
    Interestingly it seems that many subsaharan African populations’ allele scores are above many Amerindian ones (e.g. the Mandinka and the Yoruba scores are above the Mayans, Pima, and South American Indians; the Biaka Pygmies and Kenyan Bantu are above the Surui and Karitiana Indians; and the Mbuti Pygmy, Bantu and San Bushman scores are above the South American Indian Karitiana one.) , and also overall in the “subcontinental average factor scores” where “Sub Saharan Africa” collectively ranks just above the overall score of “Amerindians”
    And also, the Papuans and Melanesians score above Mozabites (a predominantly Caucasian group of North African Berbers) and Mayans.

    (and in addition the results may also be somewhat confounded by the complication Cochran mentioned; divergent populations like Africans possibly having their own alleles affecting IQ that are not detected—or as much picked up, etc.—as association studies finding a correlation mostly use European populations:)

    • 回复: @res
  309. Santoculto 说:
    @Santoculto

    My fault, public exames in school and to be soldier are not ”comparative studies” but has been used in this studies, of course.

    • 回复: @Santoculto
  310. Santoculto 说:
    @Santoculto

    ”Impossible for whites, on avg”, i’m talking about british, german, french, etc, even among the most poorest of russians, seems unlikely.

  311. Jm8 说:
    @Jm8

    编辑:
    “…said that most were in the Middle East and North Africa, which is not the case.
    My point being also, that the evidence of features and behaviors that are characteristic of modern humans are first seen in (mostly subsaharan) Africa, both Archaeological and osteological, (with some evidence of moderns also contemporarily living in adjacent North Africa, which would also have been—generally— dominated by a range of savannah-like climates).”

  312. bomag 说:
    @CanSpeccy

    … flooding into the European homelands and former European colonies, to replace the moribund, European populations.

    Shhh. Don’t be stating the obvious. You are supposed to say that they are adding diversity; or that they are coming to do jobs YT won’t do. Another accepted line is to blather on about how they are kindly, earnest people who are being displaced by wars started and maintained by white people. Bluntly stating the obvious is gauche.

    white intellectual supremacists blather on about…

    I also find that irritating. I also find the supremacist blathering from black and asian (sic) supremacists irritating.

    On the assumption that human intelligence is an evolved characteristic that promotes reproductive success…

    Not a good assumption. The high abstract intelligence that fuels the modern machine society is almost negatively correlated with reproductive success. That we raised up the geniuses who brought forth complex analysis et al is an evolutionary accident.

    Nature selects for just enough intelligence to fill a niche; then it pretty much punishes any extra intelligence. Vermin and cockroaches may be evolutionary success stories, but they are limited as intelligence success stories.

    • 回复: @CanSpeccy
  313. res 说:
    @Jm8

    (and in addition the results may also be somewhat confounded by the complication Cochran mentioned; divergent populations like Africans possibly having their own alleles affecting IQ that are not detected—or as much picked up, etc.—as association studies finding a correlation mostly use European populations:)

    I agree and this is an important point. What is surprising about Piffer’s work is that it works so well (correlation with country IQs) given this caveat. Piffer is working on using differences in Linkage Disequilibrium (LD) to try to account for this effect.

    I think the most provocative thing about those results is the large difference between East Asian and European SNP scores relative to a not as large observed phenotypic IQ difference. It implies there is a great deal of room for improvement in Asian phenotypic IQs relative to Europeans. Not sure I believe that, but it could have important consequences if true.

    The allele patterns determined/proposed in the source do not quite/exactly fit the racial hierarchies often proposed.

    Yes. The interesting question is whether that is real or noise (e.g. from the effect you noted in my quote above). I don’t know. It does provide some reason for optimism for improving African phenotypic IQ over its current status. Like many numerically ordered lists the large differences are much more likely to be both real and important than the small differences.

    Thank you for engaging with the evidence I presented in a thoughtful fashion.

  314. @CanSpeccy

    “The average American in the year 1900 had an I.Q. that by today’s standards would measure about 67.”

    And what IQ test did they determine that with? None? I hate to point out the obvious, but projecting IQ back over 100 years could only be accepted as “evidence” if you could not differentiate between reality and fiction or were a liar with an agenda to promote. Of course, if Nicholas Kristof of the NYT wrote about it, it MUST be true! Dream on, those of you that want to find ANY exception to the rule and use it as “proof” of an entire population.

    • 回复: @res
  315. szopen 说:
    @Jm8

    Yes, you did mentioned South Africa, but the dates were something like 90k to 115k BC, while modern humans appeared either 190k-200k (traditional approach) or 300k (if dating from Morocco will hold). The links you have provided seem to me stating that hominids were all over the Africa (which I have not contested) however modern humans appeared in southern Africa much later. Here is the list of the fossils:

    http://anthro.palomar.edu/homo2/mod_homo_4.htm

    Seems to me I was indeed wrong about Middle East, as the finds there also were circa 90k BC. I should have written: East Africa. I admit only now I have found out in wikipedia about 90k old modern human remains from Klasier caves in South Africa. Strangely, there is not much info to be found about that finds outside wikipedia, and google only lists me homo naiedi fossils from south african caves.

    However, note that my answer was to the claim that “modern humans evolved in hot jungles of Africa”.

    • 回复: @Jm8
  316. matt 说:
    @szopen

    However, my point was not just about lower class whites, but also that whites in the south seem to have a bit lower average IQ than US whites overall. All in all, I must say that I am not satisfied by that kind of explanation

    You shouldn’t be. Leave aside the fact that, considering various Northern migrations, not all whites who mated with blacks were Southern. It’s true that historically, Southern whites have been well below their Northern counterparts; Southern white WWI draftees infamously scored below Northern black draftees. But we’re not interested in Southern white IQ per se, we’re interested in the 基因 Southern whites gave to contemporary blacks. Here, we have to note that the Southern-Northern white IQ gap was mainly, if not entirely, due to abysmal environmental conditions in the early 20th century South, like the high prevalence of hookworm and pellagra. Since those problems were cleared up, both Southern white and black IQs have risen sharply.

    How do Southern whites compare to Northern whites today? It’s difficult to say. 此博客 gives estimates of white IQ by state based on the NAEP (in the comments it looks like a correction was made for private school students, but I’m not sure). Assuming this analysis is correct, it looks like there is a slight advantage for Northerners, but a few things should be kept in mind.

    (1) Southern whites don’t do that badly. The worst former slave state on the list is Alabama at 97.5, just 2.5 points below the mean. It’s above West Virginia (which has historically had a negligible black population). Of states that had, historically, proportionally high black populations, Alabama, Mississippi, Louisiana, Kentucky, Missouri, and South Carolina fall at least slightly below the white average (by 0.2 points in the case of the latter two), whereas, Georgia, North Carolina, Virginia, Delaware, Maryland, and Washington D.C. fall at least slightly above it. Texas has always had more than a few blacks in the eastern part of the state, and whites there do very well.

    (2) There’s been lots of white migration within the US. Southern migration to the North was probably somewhat positively selected, for both whites and blacks.

    (3) To the extent that there is a genuine North-South gap among whites, we don’t know to what extent it’s genetic.

    (4) The point I made about narrow-sense heritability being lower in the past still applies here.

    All in all, I’d be astonished if the genotypic gap between Southern whites and the white average was more than a point.

  317. @utu

    I kind of felt sorry for this guy Davide Piffer that he let somebody set him up for such a folly that at minimum will destroy any prospects for a normal career in the field unless he was already compromised enough to be just a hatcher man of Ulster Institute.

    Don’t worry, this guy is Lynn’s sidekick, the new-Galileo complex is strong on that person. And at Ulster Institute of blah blah blah, it’s just a club of half a dozen clowns not even able able to secure tenure at the lowest ranking universities.

    With 9 SNPs frequencies he got 80% correlation on circa 30 countries and what is interesting he found randomly other SNPs that even correlated better and this somehow failed to turn the red light in his head. This a perfect example of spurious correlation. The gods of nature are very generous and often very obliging. You pray for high correlation and they provide. For the sample of 30 countries one can find SNPs that will correlate with abortion rates, divorce rates, alcohol per capita, lunch time, basically any set of 30 random numbers like the sum of last week lottery numbers

    Yup, typical pseudoscientific numerology.

    Faith moves mountains. It is sad that this kind faith makes people like Thompson so gullible.

    It’s definitely a cult.

  318. @szopen

    The wrongest part is:

    and in fact consistent with known average national IQs

    There is no such thing, not even in the two ridiculous SNPs that our friend res brought up.

  319. Jm8 说:
    @szopen

    “Yes, you did mentioned South Africa, but the dates were something like 90k to 115k BC, while modern humans appeared either 190k-200k”

    The dates were about 164k Bc-70k bc. The sequence at Pinnacle Point begins in 164k bc
    http://science.sciencemag.org/content/325/5942/859

    Archaeological evidence from Ethiopia (Gademotta) dates to 279k bc (and known osteological evidence at Omo Kibbish and Herto to ca 200k BC—though more might be found in the future with earlier dates), and (if it holds), in Morocco, around the same time (possibly 300k). It seems (I suspect) that moderns might have originated somewhere in the northern half of the continent (not to be confused with northern/supersaharan African around the Magreb); the super-equatorial subsaharan region, somewhere around Ethiopia and/or a little to the west and/or NW of it (Omo Kibbish is in S.W Ethiopia and Gademotta in S. Central Ethiopia), what is now the (east or central) sahel/N savannah region (of N. subsaharan Africa just below what is now the sahara) between it and N. Africa (which at that time would also have been savanna, like much of subsaharan Africa then and now), (or possibly—I speculate—originating in a slightly larger range/region also extending a bit further south in E. Africa). But hopefully more fossils (and archaeological evidence) will help give a better idea in the (near) future.

    • 回复: @Jm8
  320. res 说:
    @Anonymous White Male

    有没有人参加过第一个智商测试并将其提供给现代人群? 这似乎是检查一些更古怪的弗林效应声明的一种非常直接和有效的方法。

    一些可能使用的测试:
    http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_vault/2013/09/24/army_literacy_test_used_on_recruits_in_wwi.html
    http://www.assessmentpsychology.com/iqtest.htm
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Army_Alpha#History
    http://childpsych.umwblogs.org/intelligence-testing-2/binet-simon-scale/
    或者 1916 年的第一版斯坦福-比奈: http://childpsych.umwblogs.org/intelligence-testing-2/stanford-binet-scale/

    使用 20 世纪早期的标准进行这些测试,当前人口中的一大群人会在哪里得分?

    • 回复: @Afrosapiens
    , @CanSpeccy
  321. @Wizard of Oz

    I’m not sure what you were implying in your third par but it wouldn’t strike me as odd that it could appear predictable from SNP frequencies that e.g. Kalenjin athletes would be far better middle distance runners on average than Inuit (actually just about everyone) but that the way genes worked to produce the results would be so far mysterious still that no prediction could be made about individual performance or ranking.

    I’m not aware of genetic studies on the topic. But endurance in some East-African populations is a consequence of adaptation to altitude, a very vital adaptation, similar to malaria resistance. Those things generally leave strong signals of natural selection, with few alleles of substantial effect. Nothing like IQ.

    I trust you enjoy the fact that you are not the only nitpicker on this thread.

    当然!

  322. Jm8 说:
    @Jm8

    Cont: But yes, I would agree that South Africa was (as far as we know) settled a bit later by modern humans than than Ethiopia/Kenya/East Africa and possibly parts of North Africa (South Africa is not the original point/center of origin for our species, according to current the evidence—though it has a quite old history of early sapiens habitation).

  323. @res

    I doubt it would be applicable. The meaning of IQ has changed from mental age to a more sophisticated scale at some point in the 20th century. So the scores are probably not convertible.

    • 回复: @res
    , @Wizard of Oz
  324. @szopen

    Actually, there is plenty of evidence that nobles were selling their peasants.

    Let’s try not to make a historical suffering contest. A lot of people have suffered terrible things in the past in different contexts. But let’s try not to make absurd analogies either, let alone using these things to compare contemporary populations.

    • 回复: @res
    , @utu
  325. Okechukwu 说:
    @res

    I did prove szopen’s assertion which Okechukwu denied.

    You didn’t prove anything and I didn’t deny anything. Firstly, I never denied that there are genetic differences between different populations of humans. There are even genetic differences between you and your brother.

    Secondly, is szopen’s assertion settled science? Oh, it isn’t? So be quiet about it already. In reality any genes or combinations of genes that code for intelligence are necessarily going to be population neutral. Why? Because we can observe all levels of intelligence in every population. We are in the very embryonic stages of research into intelligence. It would be great if we could clear out the pseudo-“scientists” and their cheerleaders like yourself so that real working scientists can get to work. The antics of people like you only serve to suppress further research in this area. Because with the flimsiest of incomplete and inconclusive data points that might ostensibly lend a patina of credibility to your world view, you start celebrating the intellectual superiority or inferiority of certain groups. This makes scientists very reticent to proceed.

    By research into intelligence, I mean human intelligence, not racial differences. Wasting time and money on racial differences is a fool’s errand since there are no observed racial differences in reality. Moreover, establishment of racial differences in intelligence is pointless. Let’s assume that science establishes that blacks are genetically smarter than whites (yes, that’s just as plausible as vice versa), then so what? What do we do with that information?

    • 回复: @szopen
    , @szopen
    , @res
  326. res 说:
    @Afrosapiens

    Let’s try not to make a historical suffering contest. A lot of people have suffered terrible things in the past in different contexts.

    That is really funny when read in combination with the thread ending in your comment 292.

    • 回复: @Afrosapiens
    , @Afrosapiens
  327. szopen 说:
    @Okechukwu

    is szopen’s assertion settled science?

    Can you please write in your own words, what was “my assertion” please?

    there are no observed racial differences in reality

    Actually there are; this is a fact. WHat is not known, what are the reasons for the observed differences. The reasons might be innate differences, there might be caused by environment (lack of access to education, parasite load etc) or some mix of those.

    Unless, of course, you are trying to claim that results of studies showing consistently large differences in IQ, plus known results of educational tests, including those organized by international organizations are all bogus and part of conspiracy by evil racist.

    • 回复: @Okechukwu
  328. res 说:
    @Afrosapiens

    So the scores are probably not convertible.

    What conversion? The whole point of the experiment is to compare the scores on the exact same test. Sorry if I didn’t explain that thoroughly enough in my original comment, but I thought it was obvious.

    The meaning of IQ has changed from mental age to a more sophisticated scale at some point in the 20th century.

    I think you are referring to the transition from ratio to deviation IQs. If anyone wants more details about that change and their respective meanings see the second and third paragraphs at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IQ_classification

    Remember your “Are you trying to teach me something that I already know?” from comment 294? It goes double when it is something I know better than you do.

    • 回复: @Afrosapiens
  329. utu 说:
    @Afrosapiens

    The point is however that large segment of American Blacks make it a suffering contest by claiming the first place in the Suffering Olympics. It is not Polish or Russian descendants of peasants who go around and cry about great misdeed done to their ancestors and about reparations and using it as excuse about their failures.

    • 同意: res
    • 回复: @Santoculto
    , @Afrosapiens
  330. szopen 说:
    @Okechukwu

    . Let’s assume that science establishes that blacks are genetically smarter than whites (yes, that’s just as plausible as vice versa), then so what? What do we do with that information?

    That would mean the observed educational differences between whites/blacks is a result of some environmental lacks, and that would justify the search into how to remove the environmental obstacles.

    OTOH, if wewould establish the opposite, it would mean poor results of blacks are not results of discrimination, racism and there is no need for affirmative action. Also, biological basis means we could try to address those biological differences by searching into some kind of medicines. After all, some people have genetic diseases (I am not comparing here being black or lack of intelligence to a disease, just making an example), and by using medicines they can function as normal people.

    WHich means that investigating the population differences (not just black-white-asian; we can look for differences at more granular level) is very important.

    所以:

    we can observe all levels of intelligence in every population.

    We can, but not at equal frequencies. Hence, your assertion is wrong and it makes plausible that the genes responsible (if they exist) will also not be at the same frequencies. Unless you mean that you think we are claiming some genes coding for intelligence do not exist in some populations, which we are not (at least, I am not).

  331. utu 说:
    @Afrosapiens

    Colonial Haiti was a concentration camp, the whole colony.

    But it ended in 1805, right? Slaves won their freedom, right? Got their own leadership right? Did they plant at least one tree in last 2012 years in Haiti?

    • 回复: @Afrosapiens
    , @Alden
  332. res 说:
    @Okechukwu

    I didn’t deny anything.

    your comment 234:
    “Wrong. Prove it.”

    Nuff said. The attempt to deny things that are easily verifiable by looking at earlier comments is mind boggling.

    P.S. Cue Afrosapiens chiming in with something like: “meaningless literal interpretation”

    • 回复: @Afrosapiens
  333. @res

    There’s nothing funny if you quote my whole paragraph. My comment 292 states facts the last sentence just underlines the absurdity of the analogy.

    • 回复: @res
  334. @res

    I mean, you must have serious reading issues.

    1-Some guy asks me what I think are the reasons for Haiti’s current situation
    2-I explain my reasons, notice that brutal slavery is not one that I mention
    3-Some other guy (or maybe the same) come and say USSR, Nazis blah blah blah and it goes on on serfdom
    4-I make it clear that the two situations are not the slightest bit comparable and that the analogy is absurd
    5-comments keep coming on the unfortunate conditions of Russian serfs.
    6-I tell people that it’s not a historical suffering context, you can list every atrocity, these things were simply not the same and have no lasting effect anyway. Any analogy remains absurd though.
    7-res chimes in, as usual he doesn’t understand anything, but laughs. Yes he laughs, what else can he do? I’m still wondering.

    • 回复: @res
    , @Afrosapiens
  335. @utu

    There are plenty of trees in Haiti, that picture that res posted is as usual not representative of the whole country.

    Citadelle Laferrière, Haiti. Or you can just look at google maps.

    Anyway, who ever claimed slavery had anything to do with it? Not me. It’s a strawman.

    • 回复: @utu
  336. res 说:
    @Afrosapiens

    Well, the “But” indicated a separate thought so it seemed like a good breaking point.

    The funny part is not your comment 292 by itself (there was a reason I referred to the “thread ending in …”). It is you answering Tyrion’s example by attempting to assert that Haiti was a victim of much worse suffering. Correct or not about your substantive point, your actions were very clearly acting towards the end of: “make a historical suffering contest.”

    I guess you just didn’t like someone playing that game right back at you.

    • 回复: @Afrosapiens
  337. @res

    You understand that literally interpreting the distribution of your two SNPs has no meaning besides there are two SNPs with this distribution, right?

    • 回复: @res
  338. res 说:
    @Afrosapiens

    what else can he do? I’m still wondering.

    I think what I can do is shown quite clearly by my comments in this thread. You not realizing that says much more about you than it does about me. I would highlight 评论164 as probably my best contribution to the actual topic of Chanda’s post.

    2-I explain my reasons, notice that brutal slavery is not one that I mention
    3-Some other guy (or maybe the same) come and say USSR, Nazis blah blah blah and it goes on on serfdom

    You are misrepresenting Tyrion’s original point. His comment 222 said nothing about slavery. It did say “colonies of a more brutal empire much more recently.”

    The only mentions of “serf” in this thread until now were from Okechukwu (comment 193) and you. There has been a fair amount of discussion of “peasants” though.

    • 回复: @Afrosapiens
  339. @Afrosapiens

    I tell people that it’s not a historical suffering context

    I tell people that it’s not a historical suffering contest*

    • 回复: @Wizard of Oz
  340. Okechukwu 说:
    @szopen

    Unless, of course, you are trying to claim that results of studies showing consistently large differences in IQ, plus known results of educational tests, including those organized by international organizations are all bogus and part of conspiracy by evil racist.

    Actually, IQ is all over the place globally and don’t necessarily track with race. IQists like you fail to realize that the strongest arguments against the race/intelligence link are the very IQ averages you like to tout.

    But when talking about human intelligence, I’m talking about innate potential, not outcomes. I can take a young child from some village who would otherwise herd sheep all his life and fail every westernized IQ test you put in front of him, bring him to America and turn him into a rocket scientist. That’s what I mean by potential. Outcomes are driven by inorganic socio-cultural-economic vectors, which historically have been transitory as nations and cultures rise and fall. Your ancestors were building dung huts while their contemporaries built pyramids. But they had the same innate potential.

    • 回复: @szopen
  341. @res

    I guess you just didn’t like someone playing that game right back at you.

    You guess wrong, what I don’t like is people starting this contest on a strawman argument. Now if you talk proportional death toll, yeah Haitian slavery was on another level than the things they mentioned. But who cares? I mean what’s the point of bringing up those things?

  342. res 说:
    @Afrosapiens

    You understand that literally interpreting the distribution of your two SNPs has no meaning besides there are two SNPs with this distribution, right?

    Well, no. You do understand the concept of an existence proof, right? One example is enough when someone is foolish enough to deny a statement as loose as “Sixth is that we actually DO know that for some genes either correlating with intelligence or with brain development their frequency is different in different population.” Some is the key word in that sentence. My two examples suffice as proof of that statement. If you like I can easily give you say five more. They would probably even be the first five IQ SNPs I choose to check.

    • 回复: @Afrosapiens
  343. Jm8 说:
    @szopen

    “Sure, diseases were deadly and more hostile to survival. So in order to counter this, you had to have stronger immune system or other ways to deal with it. Higher intelligence was not amongst them.”

    This is not the case, as I explained. Intelligence can be among them (in addition of course to the genetic adaptations we know of):

    Disease, in Africa can and has been traditionally mitigated by responses requiring intelligence and preparation (in addition to genetic adaptation). And in Africa, measures can and were be taken to reduce the number of those infected with malaria (and other infections), including: shielding babies from mosquitoes, and as also occurred in Africa; the avoidance of certain more malarial mosquito-prone land types (which often tended to be near certain waterways) in choosing settlement sites (as well as immediate environments prone/most prone to other diseases such as hookworm) and other forms of “vector control”; as well as herbal remedies for malaria (and other infectious diseases), and traditional ways of repelling insects, which have been in use for thousands of years (Wilcox and Bodecker, 2004) Primitive methods of inoculation have been practiced by many tribes in Africa against diseases including smallpox.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC527695/

    “Traditional medicines have been used to treat malaria for thousands of years and are the source of the two main groups (artemisinin and quinine derivatives) of modern antimalarial drugs. With the problems of increasing levels of drug resistance and difficulties in poor areas of being able to afford and access effective antimalarial drugs, traditional medicines could be an important and sustainable source of treatment.

    The Research Initiative on Traditional Antimalarial Methods (RITAM) was founded in 1999 with the aim of furthering research on traditional medicines for malaria.1 The initiative now has in excess of 200 members from over 30 countries. It has conducted systematic literature reviews and prepared guidelines aiming to standardise and improve the quality of ethnobotanical, pharmacological, and clinical studies on herbal antimalarials and on plant based methods of insect repellence and vector control. We review some of this work and outline what can be learnt from the developing countries on the management and control of malaria.”

    • 回复: @Jm8
    , @Jm8
  344. utu 说:
    @Afrosapiens

    Forestation dropped from 60% to 30% in last century but there was also a claim that it dropped to 2% which apparently was false but it was believed for a while or so says wiki.

  345. Jm8 说:
    @Jm8

    编辑:
    “Disease, in Africa (and other places) can and has been traditionally mitigated…”

    “There is some evidence that certain changes in settlement patterns, less suited to local ecology (within the last century or so) may have, (in some cases) in some regions have increased infection rates of certain diseases in parts of the third world.”

    • 回复: @Jm8
  346. szopen 说:
    @Okechukwu

    我不明白你的意思。

    IQ is all over the place globally and don’t necessarily track with race. IQists like you fail to realize that the strongest arguments against the race/intelligence link are the very IQ averages you like to tout.

    Once again, I am not a native speaker so maybe that’s why. Or maybe I am too stupid. Initially I thought that maybe you think we consider that every race is a distinct, uniform entity, but that couldn’t be true, given that we freely discuss the possibilities that there are different subpopulations within each race with a higher (resp. lower) IQ means. Could you please elaborate?

    Now, are you one of blank slatist? I started to suspect that because of that two fragments:

    I can take a young child from some village who would otherwise herd sheep all his life and fail every westernized IQ test you put in front of him, bring him to America and turn him into a rocket scientist.

    和:

    Outcomes are driven by inorganic socio-cultural-economic vectors,

    While of course it’s hard to deny that social and cultural conditions matter, there is no doubt that WITHIN population intelligence has large biological factor. That is, maybe you could take SOME young child, but not every child; blank slate (i.e. claiming all you need is a proper environment and you can turn every child into a rocket science) was long proven to be wrong and.

    Your ancestors were building dung huts while their contemporaries built pyramids. But they had the same innate potential.

    This is your claim. I disagree with that claim. I understand that you think there is no difference in innate intelligence between populations the first time and there is no need to repeat it. You, however, claimed that in reality there are no observed differences in intelligence. Butm, in fact, there are observed difference in intelligence. They could be caused by biological factors, or by environment.

    And once again: I asked you “Can you please write in your own words, what was “my assertion” please”? To remind you, I wrote that for some genes which are involved with brain development (I know one such gene), or which are correlated with intelligence (currently about 18 such genes, IIRC), their frequency differs between populations (including between the races). In order to avoid the misunderstanding, I stressed that those differences do not constitute a proof of innate intelligence differences between the races – and that I brought this to say, that it is not true that only skin color differs between the populations. Nothing more and nothing less. From the discussion above, I am of impression that despite my clear statement to the contrary, you seem to imply that I believe such gene frequencies differences prove racial hierarchy in intelligence (which I do not believe).

    • 回复: @Okechukwu
  347. Santoculto 说:
    @utu

    It’s important differentiate failure (ec: criminality) and real social injustice (ex: slavery).

    • 同意: res
  348. @Afrosapiens

    “Nothing like IQ”. I wonder. The analogy to the Kalenjin’s adaptations (or Shetpas or Inuits) might be 5 or 10 key mutations (and subsequent selection) amongst small groups struggling to survive and multiply during a thousand generations of climatic pressure, including change, but mostly Ice Age.

    As well as mutations there would be existing alleles selected for which had not previously been favoured by selective pressures.

    • 回复: @Afrosapiens
  349. @Afrosapiens

    I think you have that nit all to yourself (indeed yourselx) 🙂

  350. @Afrosapiens

    I think the Flynn Effectt decade by decade has been calculated incrementally by reference to the changes between thast standatdised test and the current one, each designed to produce, at the time lf standardisation, an average of 100. It would be possible I suppose that there could be an overall gross continuity between 1907 test results – if based on results from testing today – and those in 2017 despite small changes being plausibly messured over shorter intervals.

    • 回复: @res
  351. @Afrosapiens

    “with few alleles of substantial effect. Nothing like IQ”.

    I’m having another go at this after resding an article linked by res

    https://www.wired.com/2008/10/the-gene-for-jamaican-sprinting-success-no-not-really/

    Towards the end the author suggests that genes for height and weight, and for athletic performance,
    may be very numerous. Like for IQ?

    • 回复: @Afrosapiens
  352. res 说:
    @Wizard of Oz

    That is what I am trying to get at. I would hypothesize a less strong possibility though. That the Flynn Effect observed by comparing actual ~1907 test results to test results for the current population on the same test is less than the effect calculated by looking at differences of differences.

    I would be especially interested in looking at the respective top ends of the distributions. I would not be surprised to see a depression in 1907 phenotypic IQ for a large (say rural and slums) portion of the population, but I would be surprised to see a top end of the distribution consistent with a much lower mean.

    In any case, data is much better than speculation so hopefully someone has done or will do the experiment.

    P.S. The best early comparative data is probably the US WWI testing so more like 1917 or so.

  353. Jm8 说:
    @Jm8

    Cont.: Of course the aforementioned anti-disease practices were not always perfect/100 percent, and humans in different regions often adapted both culturally and to some degree physically to new environments (including northern groups like NE Asians and N. Europeans who tend to be more stocky and compact in build with more subcutaneous fat as a cold temperature adaptation as well as—at least in the case of Europeans—more naturally immune to cold-zone diseases like pneumonia, compared to more warm adapted populations).

  354. Tyrion 说:
    @Afrosapiens

    The USSR and Nazi Germany had their Gulag/Concentration camps. But only a tiny a minority of people would die there. The rest were living normal life, if we ignore the hardships of the war and the occasional privations of a socialist system. Some Eastern Europeans are nostalgic of communism.

    Normal life during Stalin’s 5 year plans? During the Holodomor? During total war? Are you mad?

    • 回复: @Afrosapiens
  355. Santoculto 说:

    When people say that the correlation between social class and IQ is moderate I think they are talking about higher IQ individuals distribution across social class. Indeed on avg higher IQ individuals tend to be relatively well distributed across social class. But when we compare avg IQ by social class “this” correlation become significant because on avg majority of individuals of upper classes will be smarter than majority of individuals of middle classes than majority of individuals of lower classes specially in “meritocratic’ societies but even in very unequal societies. It’s the case of Britain where (white) working classes tend to score below 100, middle classes around 105 and upper classes above 110. Or not and I’m delirious, we have this option too.

    • 回复: @RaceRealist88
  356. Okechukwu 说:
    @szopen

    Once again, I am not a native speaker so maybe that’s why. Or maybe I am too stupid. Initially I thought that maybe you think we consider that every race is a distinct, uniform entity, but that couldn’t be true, given that we freely discuss the possibilities that there are different subpopulations within each race with a higher (resp. lower) IQ means. Could you please elaborate

    Your first mistake is you keep conflating IQ with intelligence. A metric that is subject to innumerable environmental circumstances (including such things as motivation and even yoga) cannot be a proxy for latent intelligence.

    Motivation plays a critical role in determining IQ test scores

    https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/04/110427171638.htm

    Yoga Enhances IQ

    http://www.iqtestexperts.com/iq-yoga.php

    Even just asking black kids to check off their race lowers their scores.

    While of course it’s hard to deny that social and cultural conditions matter, there is no doubt that WITHIN population intelligence has large biological factor. That is, maybe you could take SOME young child, but not every child; blank slate (i.e. claiming all you need is a proper environment and you can turn every child into a rocket science) was long proven to be wrong and.

    You don’t know. And you can never know. You don’t know that potential rocket scientists emerge at a lower frequency in any third world village than they do in European, Chinese or American communities of a similar size. I didn’t say you could turn EVERY child into a rocket scientist. But there are children in villages whose potential remain dormant and unrealized. And there is absolutely no credible evidence that such potential is distributed among a reduced number of individuals owing to race or skin color. In fact that notion is absurd.

    This is your claim. I disagree with that claim.

    It’s not my claim. It’s a historical and anthropological fact that your ancestors were designing dung huts while their contemporaries designed grand pyramids. I don’t say that to cast aspersions because I don’t believe that fact made your ancestors inferior. However, it would have been interesting to observe how they would fare on an IQ test administered by the Ancient Nubians or Egyptians or Romans or Greeks or Mesopotamians or Persians or Indians or Mayans or Babylonians or Moors, etc. My guess is they would have flunked and flunk hard. The point is, we would expect any alleged genetic superiority in intelligence to manifest itself consistently throughout human history. And it hasn’t for any group, race, country, culture or civilization.

    And once again: I asked you “Can you please write in your own words, what was “my assertion” please”?

    Your assertion is based on work that has not exactly met with universal acclaim. In fact multitudinous holes have already been punched in it. That’s why I said you were wrong. The research is incipient and subject to multiple interpretations and multiple counter arguments. So it is not the established empirical fact that you seemed to imply it was.

    From the discussion above, I am of impression that despite my clear statement to the contrary, you seem to imply that I believe such gene frequencies differences prove racial hierarchy in intelligence (which I do not believe).

    Usually that’s what you guys are tying to prove despite protestations to the contrary. But if you say you aren’t I guess I’ll take you at your word.

    • 回复: @res
    , @szopen
  357. Jm8 说:
    @Jm8

    Another source (I should have included originally) re: traditional anti-disease practices:
    “Medicinal plants used in malaria treatment by Prometra herbalists in Uganda.”
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24928824

  358. res 说:
    @Afrosapiens

    What is a “IQ test hater”?

    This is easier to answer now that we have one on record in the thread. Thanks to Okechukwu’s comment 362.

    I hope a definition by example will suffice.

    Your first mistake is you keep conflating IQ with intelligence. A metric that is subject to innumerable environmental circumstances (including such things as motivation and even yoga) cannot be a proxy for latent intelligence.

    So IQ is apparently not a proxy at all for intelligence. Fascinating.

    • 回复: @Afrosapiens
  359. Santoculto 说:
    @RaceRealist88

    Firstly IQ tests are cognitive tests isn’t?? And after it correlates with socioeconomic variables.

    People who score higher in IQ tests tend to be more motivated to increase their knowledge. I bet if higher IQ people without academic career even those in modest professions tend to accumulates more knowledge than those with lower and avg IQ but with academic credentials. This advantage tend to start early in life. Higher IQ people of lower social classes also tend to accumulate more knowledge than those with lower and avg IQ of middle and upper class.

    • 回复: @RaceRealist88
  360. Okechukwu 说:
    @szopen

    Sure, there is no testing of all blacks and all whites and all asians in the world. However, this difference in sizes is not denied even by scientists who argue AGAINST innate racial differences in intelligence. See for example Nisbett “All Brains are the Same Color”:

    I’m familiar with the article. Nisbett is good but he’s a psychologist.

    Here’s what a distinguished anthropologist says on the matter:

    对可能伴随大脑重量变化的那些因素进行了批判性审查,即。 性别、体型、死亡年龄、早年营养状况、样本来源、职业群体、死因、死后时间、死后体温、解剖水平、有无脑脊液、脑膜和血管。 人类大脑重量之间的有效比较应该考虑所有或几个这些变量; 然而,尽管声称相反,但已发表的研究并没有这样做。 理想的样本来自于没有既往疾病而突然死亡的受试者:虽然欧洲人记录了三个这样的样本,但黑人没有记录。 健康黑人的脑重尚不清楚。 大多数已发表的种族比较是无效的。 现代人大脑大小的组织学、化学和功能对应物尚不清楚。 已发表的大脑皮层厚度的跨种族比较,特别是其颗粒上层的厚度,在技术上是无效的:没有可接受的证据表明黑人的皮层整体或任何一层比欧洲人的皮层更薄。 得出的结论是,大量的主张是基于非实质性的证据。

    http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ajpa.1330320103/abstract

    Something akin to a global survey of head sizes was done by PBS. Sorry, I don’t have the link. They used dental records to determine head sizes globally. The theory being that wide set dentition correspond with large mouths which in turn correspond with large heads. As I recall, sizes varied regionally in a haphazard fashion. For example, some African regions were convergent with certain European regions but not with other African regions. My people, West and Central Africans, had larger heads than Europeans. This is one the reasons I find this whole brain size matter comical. I’ve always accepted based on observation that we have the largest heads, and by extension, the largest brains. We have broad features that only a large head can accommodate. If you were to surgically attached my nose and mouth onto the face of the average European, most of it would be obscured.

    “Just going to Google images and looking at photos of black people and white people together ” is laughable. Trying to use google image to refute scientific studies is beyond critique.

    No it’s not. A large brain can only fit into a large head. If life observations and pictures don’t indicate what various spurious “studies” are suggesting, then we are obliged to dismiss those studies.

    I have wrote, and I quote myself here: “Obviously, this does not mean the innate intelligence is higher.

    So why would you broach the subject in the first place? What’s the point? You are dancing around your true motives like most of your heroes in the pseudoscience community tend to do. In this country it’s called dog whistling.

    The fact is that studies show brain size average difference. This can be explained either by higher intelligence in whites, or by different brain structure (as postulated by Pearce and Dunbar, who argued that in the north there is less light,so northern populations needed larger brain structures to deal with visual stimuli). Both explanation require admitting that, in fact, the different environments produces differences in complex organ.

    And in this very next paragraph you contradict yourself and in so doing, reveal your true motives to which I just alluded.

    By the way, that’s the study that examined a whopping 55 skulls from 12 countries? The specimens were of unknown age, sex, weight, height, health, infirmity. etc. This is the very definition of junk science. They posit that head sizes become increasingly larger as you go north from the equator. Well go to equatorial Africa and you’ll see massive heads like mine.

    If, however, bigger brains in whites (and even bigger in north Asians) are indication of innately higher intelligence, then it still does not mean that EVERY man with bigger brain is innately more intelligent with EVERY man with smaller brain.

    Nah…you’re not going to wiggle out of this one. I wasn’t talking about individual persons. I’m talking about group averages which is a concept guys like you love so much. Per your own hypothesis, which happens to be a central tenet of racist pseudoscience generally, big brains are more intelligent. So let’s take a massive sample size of one million black people with big brains and one million white people with small brains (I assure you, both groups exist physically on this planet). Now, the logical conclusion to your theory is that the black group is going to be smarter on average. Am I right? Or are you going to yet again try to wiggle out of the noose you made for yourself?

    This, ladies and gentlemen, is how easy it is to deconstruct all this fake, unscientific junk. Szopen hung himself with his own pseudoscience.

    • 回复: @utu
    , @szopen
  361. MarkinLA 说:
    @Afrosapiens

    Haiti was the most valuable jewel in the French Empire. When they killed off all the whites in the revolution, why didn’t they just continue on as the whites had done?

    • 回复: @Afrosapiens
  362. MarkinLA 说:
    @CanSpeccy

    It COULD happen but I wouldn’t expect it.

  363. utu 说:
    @Okechukwu

    You are dancing around your true motives like most of your heroes in the pseudoscience community tend to do.

    But they will tell you that they are into this junk pseudoscience out of pure scientific curiosity. Very curious fellows: szopen, res,…

    • 回复: @Santoculto
  364. MarkinLA 说:
    @Afrosapiens

    HBD’s position is that no government intervention can do anything on about any outcome if natural ability is lacking.

    NO you mischaracterize to make your point. HBDs position is that government intervention is a huge waste of time and money compared to the results (if any) that are obtained. 40 years of Head Start and Affirmative Action have not closed “the gap” as “the experts” promised it would.

    Maybe the better approach is to stop exporting manufacturing jobs, stop trying to get everybody into college, and save the vocational and manufacturing jobs for people who don’t really have the smarts for college.

    • 回复: @Afrosapiens
  365. MarkinLA 说:
    @RaceRealist88

    How do you scam the parts of the IQ tests that are visuo-spatial such as the case of picking the correct view of an object rotated in space or the sequences of color changes in a multi sectioned object?

    They don’t seem to be related to any of those.

    • 回复: @RaceRealist88
  366. @res

    P.S. The selective immigration argument does not really apply to Scrabble performance in Africans in their native countries. It is much more relevant to Chanda’s arguments based on the high performance of Africans in the UK. The denials of it are ridiculous and annoying (especially given the data I presented!)….

    OK, I guess you did not get my reasons for rejecting your simplistic application of that data. I thought you would at least think about it on your own and see where the error in your premises lie, since you do tend to take these sorts of things seriously.

    As you think about it this time, consider this: the biggest mistake you are making, mathematically, is not very different from the mistake Dr. Thompson was making in his calculations. You are assuming a much larger base population from which to estimate the level of cognitive selection of these “educated” immigrants than is realistically warranted.

    Let me give you one small example. Or two. (I already gave you one real one in my last post, which I expected to spark something).

    I wrote in a previous article about how Nigerians in the north rejected Western education because it was introduced by Christian missionaries. The north is Islamic. This made them remain behind the south in education by a distant margin, and these differences are seen to this day (the government still tries to help them educationally through aggressive affirmative action policies}. At some point they had only one university graduate in the north, and he just happened to be a covert to Christianity.

    So, consider that one factor alone which involves a majority of the Nigerian population. Can you see that this makes you commit an error in your calculation of how selected IN INTELLIGENCE a Nigerian “tertiary” graduate is if you simply consider him out of the total number of people in his country who are not educated?

    Before I say anything else, let me see if you understand this first or if you still find it “annoying.”

    • 回复: @res
  367. matt 说:
    @Jm8

    就像我说的 此处, I doubt that low status or warfare was highly selective against IQ in West Africa during the 1619-1807 period. As for selective breeding of slaves, 这个来源 says the use of “studs” for breeding was rare, and that slaves were actually given a surprising degree of freedom in their choice of sexual partners.

  368. matt 说:
    @res

    and the living under slavery parts selected against IQ.

    I didn’t notice this part of your comment. If what you mean is that masters practiced selective breeding of slaves, then that doesn’t seem to be the case,在大多数情况下。

    • 回复: @res
  369. matt 说:
    @Jm8

    还有 Free Introduction, from Fogel and Engerman’s 十字架上的时间.

    • 回复: @Jm8
  370. res 说:
    @Chanda Chisala

    Do you think one factor like that makes up for a 100x difference in emigration rate for the low and high skilled groups?

    Perhaps you could lay out your argument in more detail (or point me to where you have already done this) along with some quantitative estimates of how much difference you think your arguments make in the differential emigration rates for the different skill groups?

    关于:

    You are assuming a much larger base population from which to estimate the level of cognitive selection of these “educated” immigrants than is realistically warranted.

    How uniform do you think the cognitive ability distribution is throughout Nigeria? Do you think the average IQ is comparable between rural/urban and Christian/Muslim Nigerians?

    All of these questions could be addressed much more effectively if Nigeria did a better job of collecting data like IQ, but since they don’t we have to use the data which is available.

    What is annoying is that you are being patronizing while attempting to rebut my data with hand waving.

    And please, if you are going to criticize my mathematics do it in a comment where you actually present some mathematics of your own.

    • 回复: @Chanda Chisala
  371. As a professional chess player (well, last time playing in a serious tournament over 30 years ago), and as a someone with strong mathematical background (surprisingly not completely lost after 30 years of software engineering) I don’t understand neither the need in racial IQ-profiling and comparisons, nor the obsession with IQ-tests. No doubts, all mind developing games and tests are great for all kids – the earlier, the better. But after certain age the literature and arts as more (if not more) important. After all, our brain has two hemispheres. Plus that, hopefully not-totally calcified, pineal gland responsible for what we call “intuition”… My first chess coach called it the most precious quality for any good player. And now, decades later, I’m pretty sure he wasn’t talking about the chess game only.

    • 同意: utu
  372. res 说:
    @matt

    If what you mean is that masters practiced selective breeding of slaves, then that doesn’t seem to be the case, for the most part.

    That was not what I meant (but thank you for asking rather than assuming). What I meant was incidental selection based on different survival and fertility rates. One basic argument is that higher IQ tends to be associated with lower fertility. In the free world that can be counterbalanced to a degree by the ability of higher IQ individuals to acquire more resources for support of larger families, but the latter effect does not (nearly as much) apply to slaves. Another argument would be that slavery selected for physical strength/stamina more than intelligence.

    I acknowledge there are counterarguments (e.g. skilled slaves given more opportunities), but I think I am on balance on the right side of the likely selection direction for IQ while living under slavery. Are there any counterarguments you think worth emphasizing?

    As another way of looking at it, the important quantity would really be differential selection for IQ between non/slave groups. Do you think IQ was more (>=) selected for (positively) in slave than free populations? If not, I think my basic argument holds.

    As an aside, my sense was that slaveowners generally were not fond of smart/educated slaves (with exceptions of course). Even if there was not intentional selective breeding against IQ I could see that bias resulting in a negative effect.

    Another point worth noting is that the taboo against slave education removed one of the main opportunities for higher IQ individuals to exploit that trait for their own advantage.

    Do you agree that being enslaved and surviving transport likely selected for lower IQ relative to the African population that remained free? (the first half of my original statement) I think this effect would operate at both the tribe (enslavement) and individual (both) level.

    If I judge your background right you have a better handle on the magnitude of trait change possible for a given selection input over a given time than I do. Any thoughts on effect sizes we might see if my basic argument is true?

    P.S. Thanks for adding your link in comment 379. It was helpful. I’ll just note the following from page 85: “The point of the preceding argument is neither to establish the total absence of attempts at eugenic manipulation…” (based on your qualifier above I think you get that already, but just for clarity)

    P.P.S. The primary purpose of this argument is to allow for the possibility of a higher African average genetic IQ potential than would otherwise seem consistent with African-American IQs given their admixture.

    • 回复: @matt
    , @matt
    , @Santoculto
  373. szopen 说:
    @Okechukwu

    I don’t know whether to laugh or to cry.

    We already were discussing those things ad nauseum.

    First, yes, IQ is a proxy for intelligence. This is established science and only creationists and voodoo-believers think otherwise.
    Second, there were also things like measuring reaction times.
    Third, there is also things like measuring how many numbers one can remember and repeat them in the same and opposite order.

    Even just asking black kids to check off their race lowers their scores.

    The research on stereotype threat is quite likely to be fraudulent, and often is reported in a way which has nothing to do with the findings. Moreover, already Jensen has noticed that effects of stereotype threat can be explained by other, already known phenomenon (influence of stress on people with different level of abilities).

    there is absolutely no credible evidence that such potential is distributed among a reduced number of individuals owing to race or skin color. In fact that notion is absurd.

    Repeating it does not make a proof. On contrary I think that there is such an evidence, and the notion that such potential would be distributed exactly the same in every population is absurd.
    THere is no evidence that every race/population has within its ranks the same number of potential rocket scientists. ALl you have is your wishful thinking and calling names.

    It’s not my claim. It’s a historical and anthropological fact that your ancestors were designing dung huts while their contemporaries designed grand pyramids

    1. “Their contemporaries” are not black, just for the record. I know there are “we wuz kings” people going around, so this is just a reminder.
    2. I was not talking about my ancestors. I was refering to “But they had the same innate potential. ” <- this is your claim without any evidence.

    we would expect any alleged genetic superiority in intelligence to manifest itself consistently throughout human history

    You do realise that the fact that, for example, the fact Jews has higher IQ today and it might be caused by biological factors does not mean their ancestors had also higher IQ? Also, that in addition to such genetic factors there is also an environment?

    Your assertion is based on work …

    But WHAT was my assertion? In fact, res has shown my assertion was true!

    Usually that’s what you guys are tying to prove despite protestations to the contrary. But if you say you aren’t I guess I’ll take you at your word.

    You should have taken me at word when I wrote it for the first time, instead of sepdning hours trying to attack the strawman.

  374. matt 说:
    @res

    One basic argument is that higher IQ tends to be associated with lower fertility. In the free world that can be counterbalanced to a degree by the ability of higher IQ individuals to acquire more resources for support of larger families, but the latter effect does not (nearly as much) apply to slaves.

    With regard to plantation slavery, Fogel and Engerman discuss how planters provided resources to slaves to induce them to have larger families (页。 84). One of the things they did was encourage marriage, by providing “a house, a private plot of land that the family could work on its own, and frequently, a bounty either in cash or in household goods.” Inclination toward marriage is generally correlated with intelligence, so if anything, the policy of encouraging marriage, and the fertility of married couples, positively selected for intelligence. Again, given the possibly that the narrow-sense heritability of intelligence was quite low during this period, I wouldn’t expect this (or any selective mechanism, really, in either direction) to have a large impact, but that’s the direction I’d expect the selection to go.

    Another argument would be that slavery selected for physical strength/stamina more than intelligence.

    Why would it select for physical strength/stamina if planters weren’t selectively breeding for that? And even if it did, how does that show that slavery selected for intelligence?

    Do you agree that being enslaved and surviving transport likely selected for lower IQ relative to the African population that remained free? (the first half of my original statement) I think this effect would operate at both the tribe (enslavement) and individual (both) level.

    As I said, the practice of enslaving low-status people within the slave-exporting society may have introduced some slight negative selection for intelligence, but I would expect this to extremely weak. The correlation between status and intelligence in 17th-18th century West Africa would, I would guess, be even lower than it was in North America during the same period. Narrow-sense heritability would also, I would imagine, be even lower as well.

    The enslavement of enemies in warfare 可能 have had a slight selective effect, but I’d expect also expect this to be weak, if it existed at all. My impression is that the societies that captured slaves through warfare were coastal polities that mainly captured slaves from inland tribes. I can think of many non-genetic reasons why they had an advantage over their vanquished enemies. One is that, being located on the coast, they had more contact with Europeans and were able to purchase advanced weapons like firearms (and to increase their wealth generally through trade).

    I don’t know why you say that “surviving transport likely selected for lower IQ”. I would guess that, if it selected for anything, it would select for a better immune system. I don’t see what effect it would have on IQ one way or the other.

    • 回复: @res
  375. szopen 说:
    @Okechukwu

    Here’s what a distinguished anthropologist says on the matter

    From 1970. While the studies I am talking about were published later. Sigh.

    A large brain can only fit into a large head. If life observations and pictures don’t indicate what various spurious “studies” are suggesting, then we are obliged to dismiss those studies.

    Which is why we all know geocentric theory is true.

    DOn’t make me laugh.

    So why would you broach the subject in the first place? What’s the point? You are dancing around your true motives like most of your heroes in the pseudoscience community tend to do. In this country it’s called dog whistling.

    Because it is an evidence that not only skin differs between the races. Besides, isn’t that clear? I want to know the truth. This is my motive. I WANT TO KNOW. I know hundreds of studies, I’ve heard and read hundreds of arguments. I know their weak and strong points. Currently I am of opinion that observed differences between populations, including differences between races, are in part due to genetics. In fact I find it impossible and implausible that every population would have exactly the same intelligence. If there is a variance within a population, then it is something evolution can act upon. And it may happen very fast. It does not mean the difference is huge, but the claim that in every environment selective pressures on intelligence were the same is preposterous and akin to the pseudoscientific claims from 60 years ago that all the differences in intelligence are caused by environment.

    Nah…you’re not going to wiggle out of this one. I wasn’t talking about individual persons. I’m talking about group averages which is a concept guys like you love so much.

    You were not making it clear, but then, I’ve answered that already in comment 209, where I brought the issue (“Obviously, this does not mean the innate intelligence is higher “) and I even gave the reasons why.
    But, if you are asking directly
    (1) Correlation is between 0.2 to 0.4
    (2) Within population i would venture a guess that large group of people with larger head will have larger average intelligence.
    (3) Between the populations i would guess the same, but with less certainty, because the racial differences could mean the correlations withn the population may not hold between the populations (in the thread I above I brought the hypothesis that whites have larger brains not because of higher intelligence, but because of demands on visual system – light is dimmer in the north)
    (4) Hence, it indeed could mean that some African subpopulation are more intelligent than average Europeans. There is nothing controversial in that, and I was already stating this positions in numerous discussions here on unz.com (though not in this thread).

    BTW please provide the link to the study on larger brains of West Africans. That would be very interesting data. The studies i have googled are showing the brains of west africans to be smaller, with one study claiming that this is an artifact of rounding errors, and that by rounding numbers in other way west african heads would be slightly larger than eastern european (1384 vs 1374).

    is how easy it is to deconstruct all this fake, unscientific junk.

    You did nothing of the kind. You are just keep on attacking strawmans, ignoring things I wrote, imagining things i didn’t wrote, and repeating claims without evidence. Typical, but not impressive.

    • 回复: @Afrosapiens
  376. matt 说:
    @res

    Another thing to point out is that, even if African-Americans d0 face genetic disadvantages relative to their sub-Saharan cousins, sub-Saharans probably have their own genetic disadvantages relative to African-Americans. I can only think of one, but it’s potentially a substantial one: inbreeding. African-Americans don’t appear to be particularly inbred at all, if we can judge by their success in professional sports. If anything, I would expect them to be even less inbred than white Americans, given that they are less likely to live in small towns and rural areas. On the other hand, cousin marriage rates in sub-Saharan African countries are often 很高.

    I don’t think this is a 永久 or 必然 genetic disadvantage for sub-Saharan Africans relative to African-Americans, since inbreeding depression can be undone with a few generations of outbreeding (how to get people to outbreed more is a separate question). But a temporary, contingent genetic disadvantage is still a genetic disadvantage.

    • 回复: @res
  377. @szopen

    Yeah, this is in line with something I said before and I see this point, though few are making it well or addressing this. I’ll be responding to some other comments later but this is quick.

    I don’t care about any of Lynn’s specific numbers like that; my purpose here is supporting the claims I made.

    My default assumption (not saying this is necessarily true, and obviously given populations like Bushmen it’s insane to expect every ethnic subgroup in all of Africa to the same) for the sake of argument here is that black Africans might have a genotypic IQ of 85.

    Nothing Chanda Chisala has ever posted contradicts the above, both arguing about selective immigration to the US, and this Scrabble nonsense (where the egregious estimate of Scrabble player eliteness was still far more galling). I don’t think “the only point” is accurate because it’s almost just a strawman for a much broader argument; one can see the author was cherrypicking stories about immigration after some arbitrary larger attack on “hereditarianism” well before this Scrabble debacle even started.

    Anything from endogamous subgroups in a country’s population with a slightly different distribution to an upper class that avoids environmental disadvantages could create more of a range and variance than the assumption you mention of the entire country’s population having a specific mean and sd. (I don’t believe anyway that g is normally distributed so perfectly, especially at the tails, even between men and women there might be bimodal distributions in a given population…)

    So granted my default position (for the argument I don’t really care about here either) might be somehow more generous than people (if they exist) who are trying to defend Lynn as religious apologists would. Though the observed population means reflecting the influence environment (and the measurement process and measurement bias) doesn’t guarantee there is even a contradiction.

    Also I think the current living population of black Americans has much less than 20-25% white admixture, wherever that myth comes from, but I have other points to get to later and would rather cut down on responses to my comments I’d have to respond to later, so please anyone who was mentioning this, any more better, solid sources? Thanks in advance for the courtesy.

    • 回复: @res
  378. Santoculto 说:
    @res

    But higher intelligence is not correlated with better health?? Higher intelligence to the given population of course. So better teeth better intelligence/mental health??

    Brazilian blacks (excluding pardos) seems more mixed with Europeans (likely more than 20% of European/Portuguese blood) but their avg IQ is even lower than avg IQ of afro-north Americans. Similar pattern it’s likely to be found in many other Latin American countries as Colombia and Venezuela.

    • 回复: @Tenet
    , @res
  379. Tenet 说:

    “White mental patients and 12 year old white children should not only be able to win more world championships in Scrabble and checkers (given sufficient training) than the adult Africans, they should even produce more National Merit finalists (etc) if they attempted the selection tests!”

    Negroid Chanda showing his stupidity. So because White CHILDREN don’t play chess at the same level as a handful of adult Blacks, there are no IQ differences? Retard.

    And: “South Africa’s chess master is Black!” Okay, what exactly would that prove? Whites overwhelmingly dominate chess and always have.

    Seems the negroid has a hard time understanding proportions.

    Here’s something Chanda can try to answer: Why are rich Black children more likely to commit crime than poor White children?

    • 回复: @Afrosapiens
    , @Okechukwu
  380. Tenet 说:
    @Santoculto

    “Brazilian blacks (excluding pardos) seems more mixed with Europeans (likely more than 20% of European/Portuguese blood) but their avg IQ is even lower than avg IQ of afro-north Americans. “

    So? The Whites they are mixed with are Portuguese and Spanish, who are mixed with Arabs. They could only expand because of their uniquely favorable position between the Mediterranean with its prosperous trade, and the Atlantic, while enjoying excellent weather for farming, which northern Europe did not have.

    Spain and Portugal invent nothing and have created virtually no mathematicians. They contribute nothing to world science, while a small country like Sweden is in the forefront together with far larger countries like Germany, France, Britain, the US and Japan.

    www-history.mcs.st-and.ac.uk/BirthplaceMaps/MapIndex.html

    • 回复: @Santoculto
  381. @res

    I think what I can do is shown quite clearly by my comments in this thread. You not realizing that says much more about you than it does about me. I would highlight comment 164 as probably my best contribution to the actual topic of Chanda’s post.

    You’re proud of that comment? It’s probably not the worst compared to all the foolish things you’ve said to me. But it has no real value, no one will learn anything from this comment. No one will rethink his outlook on the topic either.

    You are misrepresenting Tyrion’s original point. His comment 222 said nothing about slavery. It did say “colonies of a more brutal empire much more recently.”

    Tell me how one can treat slavery and French colonialism in Haiti separately?

    In addition to that, I had to correct his wrong allegation that Poland, Hungary and Estonia were colonies.

    The only mentions of “serf” in this thread until now were from Okechukwu (comment 193) and you. There has been a fair amount of discussion of “peasants” though.

    Again, how could you talk about the central/easter European peasantry without mentioning serfdom, especially when you’re pretending that they faced harsher conditions than Haitian slaves?

    • 回复: @res
    , @Afrosapiens
  382. @res

    Well, no. You do understand the concept of an existence proof, right? One example is enough when someone is foolish enough to deny a statement as loose as “Sixth is that we actually DO know that for some genes either correlating with intelligence or with brain development their frequency is different in different population.” Some is the key word in that sentence. My two examples suffice as proof of that statement. If you like I can easily give you say five more. They would probably even be the first five IQ SNPs I choose to check.

    You know that there are more important things than proving that szopen is right or wrong in a literal way? I guess that you’re like me and you want to talk about things that are meaningful in a broader sense.

    • 回复: @res
  383. @res

    I see no hatred in Okechukwu’s words. He doesn’t give me the vibe that he’s IQphobic in the way you sounded Nigerianophobic and now probably Haitianophobic too.

    Oke is right, some studies suggest that IQ is significantly a proxy for test-motivation.

    http://scottbarrykaufman.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/Role-of-test-motivation-in-intelligence-testing.full_.pdf

    Or literacy

    http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.2466/pr0.106.3.643-664

    I hope you’re aware that your theory of IQ-driven growth in Korea and China, and the lack thereof in Africa is way more outlandish than any of Okechukwu’s claims.

    • 回复: @res
  384. @Tenet

    Why are rich Black children more likely to commit crime than poor White children?

    I’m not Chanda but I’m a negroid too, so you’ll appreciate my reply.

    At every level of income, blacks tend live in poorer and and more criminal areas that poor whites.

    Plus, income is not wealth. Most of what people call “poor whites” are actually people facing a short reduction in income.


    https://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/21/us/milwaukee-segregation-wealthy-black-families.html?ref=oembed
    http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.168.1483&rep=rep1&type=pdf

    Before anyone accuses me of making excuses, neighborhood effects are a large part of the non-shared component of environmentality.

    https://eric.ed.gov/?id=EJ918882
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3286027/

    • 回复: @res
  385. @utu

    The point is however that large segment of American Blacks make it a suffering contest by claiming the first place in the Suffering Olympics. It is not Polish or Russian descendants of peasants who go around and cry about great misdeed done to their ancestors and about reparations and using it as excuse about their failures.

    No, the pseudo-point that res makes is about me and only about me.

    Speaking of Black Americans’ complaints about the past and present injustice they’re subjected to, it is entirely legitimate as the legacy of institutional segregation and racism does affect their current living conditions. And reparations would be more than appropriate, more appropriate than the reparations that Haiti had to pay to the plantation owners.

    Many eastern Europeans miss the USSR or communism. No black misses Jim Crow or slavery.

    • 回复: @res
  386. @szopen

    1. “Their contemporaries” are not black, just for the record. I know there are “we wuz kings” people going around, so this is just a reminder.

    There is no debate about the fact that Nubian pyramids were built by blacks and that Nubians ruled over Egypt for a while.

    • 回复: @Szopen
  387. Santoculto 说:
    @Tenet

    Firstly, ”arabs”**

    I don’t think most iberians are mixed with ”arabs” but with maghrebians [and maybe even ”most” will be incorrect to say], but i really don’t know if this genetic interchange between Iberia and North Africa really happened only since islamic invasion.

    其次,

    It’s one of the issues people could or should study, if spaniards and portugueses always have that comparatively lower avg IQ/i mean, cognitive skills, than british or another northernwestern europeans. We know northern portugueses and spaniards tend to be better in many socioeconomic and cognitive/behavioral issues than southern despising cultural creativity [Andaluzia versus Basque country, for example] and that they have [comparative] lower extra-european admixture [even it’s already can be viewed via racial phenotype]. Even regards avg IQ, the difference between native spaniards and british it’s not bigger [respectively ~97 versus 100].

    第三,

    it’s likely that in both: Brazil and ”USA” [13 british colonies], enslaved black women has been sexual and reproductive relationships with the same type or class of white men. ”Lower class” british men namely in that time were at the same levels of cognitive skills of ”lower class” portuguese/spanish men**

    They could only expand because of their uniquely favorable position between the Mediterranean with its prosperous trade, and the Atlantic, while enjoying excellent weather for farming, which northern Europe did not have.

    fourthly,

    your exceptional pre-condition with the word ONLY seems unfair and tendentious against ”iberians”.

    ”They” were the first ones to clear unknown lands [even via all types of morally stupid atitudes] among europeans, why not British** They opened the paths to european world domination.

    Circumnavigate unknown coasts seems require a lot of logic and mathematic thinking.

    Spain and Portugal invent nothing and have created virtually no mathematicians. They contribute nothing to world science, while a small country like Sweden is in the forefront together with far larger countries like Germany, France, Britain, the US and Japan.

    Neither you,

    Prudence and ponderation are always convidative even for this type of possibly correct historical facts.

    Seems complicated to judge a non-official competition like this because most of this macro-historical events has happened via randomness, the flavour of historical moment. In the same way Iberia had a advantage in the begining of the great [european] discoveries, Britain had many advantages to be pioneer in the industrial revolution as well United States in the XIX and XX centuries.

    ”Countries” don’t invent things, individuals do. ”Germany” no have contributed to science but german individuals, it’s very different and much more semantically correct to say.

    Serbia seems have given little contribution to science BUT it was in this ”lower IQ country” that was born one of the most brightest men ever.

    And always bear in mind that for each ”positive contribution” many other negative ones also has produced, the part of ”white/whatever guilt” wn or similar as you love forget.

  388. @MarkinLA

    NO you mischaracterize to make your point. HBDs position is that government intervention is a huge waste of time and money compared to the results (if any) that are obtained. 40 years of Head Start and Affirmative Action have not closed “the gap” as “the experts” promised it would.

    There are good signs that the gap indeed narrowed

    It’s true about math:

    It’s true about IQ:
    https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/298b/8053229e3d9c4ae255c81adfd698564bbcf2.pdf

    Affirmative action has been beneficial to white women more than to any other group:

    http://ideas.time.com/2013/06/17/affirmative-action-has-helped-white-women-more-than-anyone/

    http://www.bustle.com/p/who-does-affirmative-action-benefit-white-women-are-some-of-its-biggest-opponents-74034

    https://www.vox.com/2016/5/25/11682950/fisher-supreme-court-white-women-affirmative-action

    Head start’s reach is small and it’s indeed pointless if subsequent schooling is substandard. And once again, a lot of whites have benefited from it.

    What would be a bigger waste of time and money is doing nothing. Because you know, humans tend to take by force what they are not given fairly. These things are the price for social peace. Deal with it.

    Maybe the better approach is to stop exporting manufacturing jobs, stop trying to get everybody into college, and save the vocational and manufacturing jobs for people who don’t really have the smarts for college.

    It’s surely misguided to force everybody into college, but you must be aware that racial disparities existed before de-industrialization and that they currently persist at every level of education. The HBD cult blames it on genetics, but the obvious elephant in the room is discrimination, racism or whatever you call an “excuse”.

    • 回复: @MarkinLA
  389. @MarkinLA

    Haiti was the most valuable jewel in the French Empire. When they killed off all the whites in the revolution, why didn’t they just continue on as the whites had done?

    You mean why didn’t they continue the brutal slavery that made Haiti a “jewel” under white rule?

    Lol, think harder.

    • 回复: @MarkinLA
  390. @Tyrion

    Normal life during Stalin’s 5 year plans? During the Holodomor? During total war? Are you mad?

    No I’m not mad. If the death rate had been similar to colonial Haiti, there would be only a few million people currently remaining in the former USSR and eastern bloc, and not something like 250M. And no one would be missing this era.

    • 回复: @Tyrion
  391. @Wizard of Oz

    Towards the end the author suggests that genes for height and weight, and for athletic performance,
    may be very numerous. Like for IQ?

    What has to be expected if Jamaican sprinting ability is not a result of natural selection. There is obviously more than a gene to Jamaica’s performance. If it was just about race, Nigeria’s 190 million inhabitants would have produced more sprinting champions than Jamaica’s 2 millions. But Somehow, they produced scrabble champions instead.

    • 回复: @RaceRealist88
    , @Wizard of Oz
  392. @Wizard of Oz

    “Nothing like IQ”. I wonder. The analogy to the Kalenjin’s adaptations (or Shetpas or Inuits) might be 5 or 10 key mutations (and subsequent selection) amongst small groups struggling to survive and multiply during a thousand generations of climatic pressure, including change, but mostly Ice Age.

    As well as mutations there would be existing alleles selected for which had not previously been favoured by selective pressures.

    But there’s no such thing yet discovered in the genetic architecture of intelligence. And the inability of GWAS to spot any gene of substantial effect in huge samples indicates that there is nothing of this kind to discover.

  393. res 说:
    @matt

    Many good points. Thank you. I think most of our differences rely on judgment calls about points like the following. I talk about these two a bit more below to help explain why we might have different views but are unlikely to resolve anything without data.

    The enslavement of enemies in warfare might have had a slight selective effect, but I’d expect also expect this to be weak, if it existed at all. My impression is that the societies that captured slaves through warfare were coastal polities that mainly captured slaves from inland tribes. I can think of many non-genetic reasons why they had an advantage over their vanquished enemies. One is that, being located on the coast, they had more contact with Europeans and were able to purchase advanced weapons like firearms (and to increase their wealth generally through trade).

    My understanding is that distance from the sea tends to correlate with intelligence (though I am not finding supporting data in a quick search right now). Another possibility is that those who chose to trade with Europeans and did so successfully were more intelligent.

    I don’t know why you say that “surviving transport likely selected for lower IQ”. I would guess that, if it selected for anything, it would select for a better immune system. I don’t see what effect it would have on IQ one way or the other.

    I agree with your second sentence and would add physical stamina to that. There is a theory that devoting resources to the immune system acts in competition (in an evolutionary sense) with things like metabolically expensive big brains. Kind of a weak argument and the obvious counterargument is the system integrity hypothesis (grossly simplified IQ correlates with most other desirable traits in individuals).

    Feel free to have the last word (or not, as you like). I don’t think we disagree all that much and having explored the problem space a bit with you (thanks) I don’t feel the need to argue further about this unless there is more data to discuss.

    • 回复: @matt
  394. @res

    What conversion? The whole point of the experiment is to compare the scores on the exact same test. Sorry if I didn’t explain that thoroughly enough in my original comment, but I thought it was obvious.

    Thanks for explaining it thoroughly now.

    Remember your “Are you trying to teach me something that I already know?” from comment 294? It goes double when it is something I know better than you do.

    That’s enough to make you wet? It’s enough to make me cringe.

    • 回复: @res
  395. res 说:
    @matt

    Another good point, but I am not sure how to reconcile that idea with the increased genetic diversity and heterozygosity observed in Africans (IIRC Afrosapiens talks about this in one of the threads on James Thompson’s blog).

    Here is a paper arguing that sub-Saharan Africans have a lower genetic load which I think argues against an increased effect of inbreeding there: http://www.pnas.org/content/113/4/E440.full

    But it is hard to assess the tribal genetic structure issue overall and the issue of small communities in rural Africa.

  396. res 说:
    @Santoculto

    But higher intelligence is not correlated with better health??

    This is a good counter argument and corresponds to the system integrity hypothesis I mentioned. Also see my response to matt.

  397. res 说:
    @Afrosapiens

    Tell me how one can treat slavery and French colonialism in Haiti separately?

    I don’t know, but you just finished telling us how you did not bring up slavery. But you did bring up colonialism.

    Again, how could you talk about the central/easter European peasantry without mentioning serfdom, especially when you’re pretending that they faced harsher conditions than Haitian slaves?

    I don’t know, but you just finished complaining about that digression. Now you are saying it is necessary.

    • 回复: @Afrosapiens
  398. @Afrosapiens

    In addition to that, I had to correct his wrong allegation that Poland, Hungary and Estonia were colonies.

    I think I need to clarify what a colony is. A colony is a territory under economic exploitation of another territory.

    The USSR was not a colonial empire, it was a federation. Estonia was to Moscow what California is to Washington.

    Communist Hungary and Poland were independent states

    Royal Hungary was autonomous subject under the Habsburg monarchy.

    Congress Poland was an autonomous subject of the Russian empire, the German parts were provinces of Prussia and the German Empire.

    Haiti was colony settled by planters making profits out of slave labor.

    No absurd analogies please.

    • 回复: @Szopen
    , @Anne lid
  399. res 说:
    @Afrosapiens

    You do understand there is a major difference between “also being a proxy for test motivation” and “not at all a proxy for IQ”, right? Motte and Bailey is always entertaining.

    • 回复: @Afrosapiens
  400. res 说:
    @Afrosapiens

    At every level of income, blacks tend live in poorer and and more criminal areas that poor whites.

    Gosh, how does that happen? You might want to ponder direction of causation there.

    • 回复: @Afrosapiens
  401. res 说:
    @Afrosapiens

    No, the pseudo-point that res makes is about me and only about me.

    Hardly. But thanks for your failed attempt at mind reading.

    • 回复: @Afrosapiens
  402. @res

    Gosh, how does that happen? You might want to ponder direction of causation there.

    What do you mean? How does it happen that blacks always tend to live in poorer and more dangerous areas than where they can afford to live?

    好好想

    • 回复: @res
  403. res 说:
    @Krastos the Gluemaker

    My default assumption (not saying this is necessarily true, and obviously given populations like Bushmen it’s insane to expect every ethnic subgroup in all of Africa to the same) for the sake of argument here is that black Africans might have a genotypic IQ of 85.

    Not sure if you noticed Chanda’s comment 95 to me, but you might want to check this part out:

    If you now believe, like Szopen, that it’s actually closer to 85 or 90, then that’s a different discussion with its own problems that I’m not prepared to go deep into since you will have to reject a lot of other positions held by fellow racial hereditarians to say that (eg many such hereditarians, including Lynn, accept that as much as 10 to 15 IQ points depression in Africa is due to environmental causes; are you prepared to believe that this means that your 85 IQ for Africa needs to be corrected for 10-15 IQ points? You may say “no” because that puts it at white IQ levels, genotypically, which I suspect you’re not willing to accept, so you’ll reject the 10-15 IQ environmental factor. You would also have to reject the IQ advantage of black Americans due to their white admixture. Etc. See why it’s hard for me to conduct too many arguments at the same time against people with their own individual versions of racial hereditarianism? One job at a time.)

    回到你身边:

    Also I think the current living population of black Americans has much less than 20-25% white admixture, wherever that myth comes from, but I have other points to get to later and would rather cut down on responses to my comments I’d have to respond to later, so please anyone who was mentioning this, any more better, solid sources? Thanks in advance for the courtesy.

    I don’t think I mentioned this, but since I like digging up data. From http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2014/12/genetic-study-reveals-surprising-ancestry-many-americans
    我们看:

    The average African-American genome, for example, is 73.2% African, 24% European, and 0.8% Native American, the team reports online today in The American Journal of Human Genetics. Latinos, meanwhile, carry an average of 18% Native American ancestry, 65.1% European ancestry (mostly from the Iberian Peninsula), and 6.2% African ancestry.

    I’ll leave it you to dig deeper if you like, but I will just note that the one drop rule in the US means there are African-Americans who are more than 75% white which skews the averages a good bit.

  404. @res

    When incentives can increase test scores by more than 1 SD, when IQ has a 0.99 correlation with some measures of literacy, I can safely say it is not at all a proxy for intelligence.

    • 哈哈: res
    • 回复: @Afrosapiens
    , @Szopen
    , @Okechukwu
  405. res 说:
    @Afrosapiens

    Remember your “Are you trying to teach me something that I already know?” from comment 294? It goes double when it is something I know better than you do.

    That’s enough to make you wet? It’s enough to make me cringe.

    Yeah. That was my reaction to your comment 294 as well so I thought I’d fight fire with fire. I know I shouldn’t descend to your level, but it is difficult to resist sometimes.

    By the way, while we are on this topic I would just like to remind everyone that Afrosapien’s very first comment in this thread was 评论68 reproduced in it’s entirety following:

    On an other thread, our friend res was about to prove that all of Nigeria’s IQ120+ population emigrated. Be careful, he has unbeatable and very logical arguments. LMAO.

    • 回复: @Afrosapiens
  406. @res

    I don’t know, but you just finished telling us how you did not bring up slavery. But you did bring up colonialism.

    No, I did not, until someone said Estonia, Hungary and Poland suffered “brutal colonial rule”. The only thing partly related to colonialism that I mentioned is the reparations that Haiti paid for its independence.

    I don’t know, but you just finished complaining about that digression. Now you are saying it is necessary.

    Not comparing apples and oranges is necessary, how is making such a claim anywhere close to complaining?

  407. @res

    You definitely need to reread your comment 332 and the subsequent discussion which is only about me and does not deal with black Americans a single time.

  408. Szopen 说:
    @Afrosapiens

    Yes. Sorry, but i was discussing too many timez with blacks trying to prove wgypt was bkack civilisation and i react somewhat allergic. Sorry for that.

  409. @Afrosapiens

    • 哈哈: 水库

    This is not a good way to concede.

    • 回复: @res
  410. res 说:
    @Afrosapiens

    I like the way you backed away from using the word “criminal” there. That was telling. First, let’s return to your original statement:

    At every level of income, blacks tend live in poorer and and more criminal areas that poor whites.

    Next let’s take a quick look at how homicide rates in large American cities correlate with racial proportions: https://www.unz.com/runz/race-and-crime-in-america/

    While we are discussing an example of disputed causation like this I think it is worth taking a moment to read this: https://whywereason.wordpress.com/2011/09/07/psychologys-treacherous-trio-confirmation-bias-cognitive-dissonance-and-motivated-reasoning/
    Psychology’s Treacherous Trio: Confirmation Bias, Cognitive Dissonance, and Motivated Reasoning

    • 回复: @Afrosapiens
  411. Santoculto 说:

    Yes, i saw. I think very ”higher intelligence” may be detrimental to better immune system even because in my view all new phenotypes tend to appear/to be, firstly, more mutant or unbalanced, specially when they are not being intensely selected/decanted.

    I don’t think expensive brains are intrinsically/per si detrimental to better immune system, i might be wrong, but it’s what i think by now.

    In the end, in this places where people live more, what we have it’s not super geniuses living in villages but people with very relaxed/calm personalities [seems modest cognitive skills] and wrapped by very ”good’ cultural habits. And people who are concerned to improve their lifestyle may transmit this culture and this genes subsequently to other generations. Bear in mind that many of this people have relaxed personality BUT they are NOT ”sensation seekers” who tend to become addicted in some possibly ”bad’ habit.

  412. Szopen 说:
    @Afrosapiens

    Poland maybe was not a colony, but we were not independent country. In my home city we still celebrate people who were massacred in uprising 1956; people were being killed by communist even in 1981. As for exploitation, its hard to sat, because communist economy was so fucjed up that we thought we are exploited, while soviets thought they are sending us freebjes. Being Polish and looking at post 1989 development i think you can guess what is my opinion on that.

    • 回复: @Afrosapiens
  413. Szopen 说:
    @Afrosapiens

    You know that you are goibg here against scientific consensus? The position that iq is a proxy for intelligence is a mainstream position ehich is contested only by journalists, ideologues and people not knowing much about the topic.

    For starters, the fact that you can predict educational echievements, literacy and incone by testing iq at early age, and that tests are better predictors than ses, should be some indication tgat you should cease reading charlatans and ideologues and familiarize yourself with basic science.

    • 回复: @Afrosapiens
  414. res 说:
    @Afrosapiens

    It wasn’t a concession. Again, direction of causation. And to be clear, I think there is a component both ways. IQ increase literacy and literacy/education also increases (phenotypic) IQ. It’s just that we disagree which is larger.

    • 回复: @Afrosapiens
  415. @res

    On the ‘sprint gene’:

    In black Americans, you can expect 4 times more to have the RR genotype compared to the XX genotype (XX are deficient in α-actinin-3). The frequency of the RR genotype is also highest in Bantus and lowest in East Asians.

    https://academic.oup.com/hmg/article/10/13/1335/628695/Differential-expression-of-the-actin-binding#DDE145F4

    I agree that it’s more nuanced than one gene, but that one genotype does confer a specific advantage if mixed with the right fiber type:

    Thus, our results suggest that, rather than fiber force, combined effects of morphological and contractile properties of individual fast muscle fibers attribute to the enhanced performance observed in RR genotypes during explosive contractions.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4773019/

  416. @res

    I like the way you backed away from using the word “criminal” there. That was telling. First, let’s return to your original statement:

    Yes, I didn’t use this word because these high income blacks in poor areas are likely more often victims than offenders, so “dangerous area” better describes their lived reality than “commit more crime than poor whites”.

    Next let’s take a quick look at how homicide rates in large American cities correlate with racial proportions:

    You’re well aware that black poverty is highly concentrated and urban and that no other population faces this situation to the same extent. I also guess that you understand that concentrated urban poverty increases the odds of crime and arrest for everyone living in those areas, rich or poor.

    While we are discussing an example of disputed causation like this I think it is worth taking a moment to read this:
    https://whywereason.wordpress.com/2011/09/07/psychologys-treacherous-trio-confirmation-bias-cognitive-dissonance-and-motivated-reasoning/
    Psychology’s Treacherous Trio: Confirmation Bias, Cognitive Dissonance, and Motivated Reasoning

    Keep this to yourself and read it well. Don’t miss a single word.

  417. @res

    Yeah. That was my reaction to your comment 294 as well so I thought I’d fight fire with fire. I know I shouldn’t descend to your level, but it is difficult to resist sometimes.

    No, please, get on my level. We’ll see a positive difference.

    By the way, while we are on this topic I would just like to remind everyone that Afrosapien’s very first comment in this thread was comment 68 reproduced in it’s entirety following:

    I love this comment, it perfectly describes the way you’d invent anything to convince yourself that blacks are good for nothing.

    • 哈哈: res
  418. res 说:
    @Afrosapiens

    You know that there are more important things than proving that szopen is right or wrong in a literal way? I guess that you’re like me and you want to talk about things that are meaningful in a broader sense.

    This is actually an important point to address. I do want to talk about things that are meaningful in a broader sense. The problem is that is hard to do (and tends to be ultimately unsatisfying) with people who aren’t sincere about looking for the truth. One of the best ways I know to judge that sincerity is seeing how people react to a minor but obviously wrong point. The mature thing to do is acknowledge being wrong (the point is minor!), reformulate one’s position in light of the new evidence, and move on.

    Compare my conversation with matt (in that case my error of misreading one of his comments, see comments 241 and 253) to my conversations with you and Okechukwu in this respect.

    P.S. IMHO the selective immigration argument also serves as a good example of this. There really is selective immigration. How much is arguable of course. Data is the best basis for making that argument one way or another.

    P.P.S. This is a good place to offer another link to this article: https://whywereason.wordpress.com/2011/09/07/psychologys-treacherous-trio-confirmation-bias-cognitive-dissonance-and-motivated-reasoning/

    • 回复: @Afrosapiens
    , @Afrosapiens
  419. @Szopen

    Poland maybe was not a colony, but we were not independent country. In my home city we still celebrate people who were massacred in uprising 1956; people were being killed by communist even in 1981. As for exploitation, its hard to sat, because communist economy was so fucjed up that we thought we are exploited, while soviets thought they are sending us freebjes. Being Polish and looking at post 1989 development i think you can guess what is my opinion on that.

    I clearly understand that it was not a happy era, but I can’t hear that it was comparable to slavery in Haiti.

    Now speaking of post-communism development, it’s hard to deny the role of the European Union in uplifting living standards and economy in eastern Europe. If you compare with Moldova and Ukraine who do worse than many Subsaharan African countries on many variables.

  420. @Afrosapiens

    What has to be expected if Jamaican sprinting ability is not a result of natural selection. There is obviously more than a gene to Jamaica’s performance

    Right but they have a higher proportion with ACTN3 gene and also have the type II fibers.

    The very low frequency of XX genotypes in Jamaica(2%) means that very few Jamaicans are precluded fromsprint success by their ACTN3 genotype. However, a studyof elite east African distance runners found that the X allelewas at similar low frequency in the Kenyan population (40),which cannot be described as a sprint specialist population.

    https://www.researchgate.net/publication/40687707_ACTN3_and_ACE_genotypes_in_elite_Jamaican_and_US_sprinters

    So they’re less likely to have the XX genotype, which does not produce α-actinin-3.

    • 回复: @Afrosapiens
  421. @Szopen

    You know that you are goibg here against scientific consensus?

    There is no consensus whatsoever on what IQ tests measure.

    The position that iq is a proxy for intelligence is a mainstream position ehich is contested only by journalists, ideologues and people not knowing much about the topic.

    Lol, of course not, the mainstream position is that there is no clear definition of intelligence and that IQ tests are far from capturing the complexity of cognition, not even as a proxy. Speaking of ideologues and clueless bloggers, they’re overwhelmingly on the other side of the debate.

    For starters, the fact that you can predict educational echievements, literacy and incone by testing iq at early age, and that tests are better predictors than ses, should be some indication tgat you should cease reading charlatans and ideologues and familiarize yourself with basic science.

    That’s greatly overblown, and confounded. Lol again at your advice on ideologues and charlatans when IQ cultism always have the same ideological flavor.

    • 回复: @Szopen
  422. Okechukwu 说:
    @Tenet

    Negroid Chanda showing his stupidity. So because White CHILDREN don’t play chess at the same level as a handful of adult Blacks, there are no IQ differences? Retard

    Nevermind adult blacks, as a child white children didn’t play chess at my level.

    I was the only black kid in my chess club in middle school. I was, by far, the best chess player in my school, beating every white opponent. I was so skilled that my school entered me in a city-wide chess tournament. I faced all the best chess players in Los Angeles and the surrounding areas. One by one I beat them, even as the competition became increasingly stiff. In the final game for the championship my arrogance and overconfidence got me into early trouble. I realized this kid was no patsy like all the others I’d defeated that day. So I settled down, took my time, defeated him and won the city championship. You should have seen the looks on the faces of all the white people there, as this black kid (the only black kid in the tournament) took the trophy. The long and short of it is that I never lost a single chess match, not against my older brothers, adults, my friends, in school or in tournaments. I was obsessed with it. I read every book on chess I could find. I would work up moves in my head based on an endless array of contingencies, often going 10, 20 moves deep for each contingency. That’s why my game was so quick and aggressive because I didn’t have to sit there and think and ponder when it was my turn to move. My natural ability along with my focus and studiousness meant that you’d have to be a grandmaster to beat me, even though I was only 12 or 13 years old. And even a grandmaster wouldn’t win every game against me.

    Was I the only black kid capable of playing chess at a high level? Of course not. But I was one of the few that took it up. Suggesting that the under-representation of blacks in any field of endeavor is somehow corroborative of black intellectual inferiority is a classic example of an out-of-context or cherrypicked correlation/causation nexus. Surely you folks are smart enough to come up with more plausible interpretations of complex social phenomena.. Or maybe not?

    • 回复: @res
  423. @res

    The problem is that is hard to do (and tends to be ultimately unsatisfying) with people who aren’t sincere about looking for the truth.

    Lol! you’re definitely not part of the truth-seeking crowd. You’re quick to forget that your first debate with me was a brilliant demonstration of irrationality and blindness to plain cold facts.

    One of the best ways I know to judge that sincerity is seeing how people react to a minor but obviously wrong point. The mature thing to do is acknowledge being wrong (the point is minor!), reformulate one’s position in light of the new evidence, and move on.

    Hahahaha! Do it first and maybe you can expect the same in return. You’re incredible, you’re the one with the most biased argumentation, who only cites a few well-known wannabe Galileo charlatans. But you’re here, lecturing on objectivity and honesty. Please.

    P.S. IMHO the selective immigration argument also serves as a good example of this. There really is selective immigration. How much is arguable of course. Data is the best basis for making that argument one way or another.

    And that’s on the how much part that we’re disagreeing. There is a huge difference between above-average and hyper-selected cognitive elite. Then, implying associated genetic selection is even more unwarranted.

    • 回复: @res
  424. @res

    As reasonable as that sounds, IQ adoption studies paint a different picture. But when it is your anecdote I guess anecdotal evidence constitutes proof.

    See Afro’s comment 247: https://www.unz.com/article/my-last-word-on-the-scrabble-and-iq-debate-2/#comment-2007065

    Citing this paper reanalyzing East Asian adoptions and the Minnesota study.

    http://www.mdpi.com/2079-3200/5/1/1/htm

  425. Okechukwu 说:
    @Afrosapiens

    When incentives can increase test scores by more than 1 SD, when IQ has a 0.99 correlation with some measures of literacy, I can safely say it is not at all a proxy for intelligence.

    Don’t forget yoga. Haha.

    • 哈哈: Afrosapiens
  426. @res

    It wasn’t a concession.

    它应该是。

    Again, direction of causation. And to be clear, I think there is a component both ways. IQ increase literacy and literacy/education also increases (phenotypic) IQ. It’s just that we disagree which is larger.

    Literacy is real, it’s something we use everyday, it is a skill.
    IQ is a test and some correlations.

    So it’s very hard to attribute a causal to IQ unless you have emotional commitment to it.

    Psychologists have such a commitment, IQ tests are one of the only things from their field that found wide practical application.

    Hereditarians have such a commitment because racial differences and heritability estimates are the backbone of their theories. And while they claim that genetic IQ is the magical thing that make races unequal, they fail to bring up that things that matter, like income and wealth, do not have this heritability and twin correlations. From this fact alone, the whole theory of the bell curve falls apart.

  427. @Wizard of Oz

    Why stupid rather than just arguably wrong if he means, as he probably does, that Africans are largely stuck with the alleles for cognitive ability (and maybe some unspecified qualities) that were present in similar proportions before the move of small numbers of homo sapiens out of Africa? His thesis is presumably that vital mutations for survival in Eurasia spread quickly in the small groups that survived before those populations grew large from narrow genetic bases as conditions improved whereas any such mutations had little chance of becoming common in African populations which were already large and in which no great selective advantage was provided in the absence of glaciers.

    It’s stupid and wrong. Evolution doesn’t stop. I’ve seen numerous people over the year claim that Africans ‘didn’t evolve’ after the migration OoA and so are ‘behind in evolution’ (whatever that means). And cold winter theory doesn’t make sense.

    https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/unique-everybody-else/201211/cold-winters-and-the-evolution-intelligence

    Even then, there is evidence that evolution occurs ‘faster’ in warmer climes.

    https://www.livescience.com/715-evolution-occurs-faster-equator.html

    和 ”Tropical environments provide more evolutionary challenges than do the environments of temperate and cold lands.=

    http://cyber.sci-hub.bz/MTAuMjMwNy8yNzgyNjMwNg==/10.2307%4027826306.pdf

    • 回复: @Wizard of Oz
  428. @RaceRealist88

    Yes, but I think it’s not enough to explain why just 2 million Jamaicans beat the whole world. Or why, Lemaître apart, West Africans dominate European sprinting when they’re never more than 5% of the population of each country.

    • 回复: @res
  429. @res

    Compare my conversation with matt (in that case my error of misreading one of his comments, see comments 241 and 253) to my conversations with you and Okechukwu in this respect.

    Indeed, I can clearly see that you’re not making it a personal issue with matt.

    • 回复: @res
  430. res 说:
    @Afrosapiens

    You’re quick to forget that your first debate with me was a brilliant demonstration of irrationality and blindness to plain cold facts.

    How about you link to where specifically that was demonstrated so others can judge the truthfulness of your account? Hopefully everyone can get a pretty good idea from this thread though.

    Do it first and maybe you can expect the same in return.

    There was a reason I specifically referenced my comment 253.

    And that’s on the how much part that we’re disagreeing. There is a huge difference between above-average and hyper-selected cognitive elite. Then, implying associated genetic selection is even more unwarranted.

    Well at least you are admitting the some part. Now we can talk numbers. Like a 100x difference in the rate of emigration for low skill and high skill groups from Nigeria.

    How does that 100x difference relate to vague terms like “above-average” and “hyper-selected”? Please be more precise and try engaging with the data.

    • 回复: @Afrosapiens
  431. Anne lid 说:
    @Afrosapiens

    Communist Hungary independent? Have you heard about 1956? 1968 in Czhechoslovakia? As late as 1981 in Poland? Some independence!

    • 回复: @Afrosapiens
  432. @szopen

    (2) THe correlation between brain size and intelligence is between 0.2 (when measured by indirect methods such as measuring head circumference) and 0.4 (when measured by MRI).

    That the correlation between brain size and IQ is ‘only’ .4 shows something: that brain size didn’t increase for IQ, since microcephalics are seen to have IQs in the normal/above average range.

    http://www.human-existence.com/publications/Skoyles%20Human%20evolution%20expanded%20brains%20expertise%20not%20IQ.pdf

    I think larger brains evolved in populations that migrated north due to the need for increased expertise capacity. Large brains impede childbirth. Thus wider pelves are needed. Combine this with the fact that populations in colder climes also have wider pelves as it’s much better for heat retention in comparison to a narrower, more African-like pelvis. (https://notpoliticallycorrect.me/2017/07/04/homo-neanderthalis-vs-homo-sapiens-sapiens-who-is-stronger-implications-for-racial-strength-differences/)

    So people with erectus-sized brains can have normal intelligence. The brain size increase jumped after erectus mastered fire (https://notpoliticallycorrect.me/2017/08/19/earlier-evidence-for-erectus-use-of-fire/).

    So if modern-day people with smaller brains can have IQs in the normal range, and erectus had a brain size around the size of these people with normal/above average IQs then we can say that some erectus may have had IQs in the modern range. So if we take this to its logical conclusion, then brain size must have increased for another reason (since it requires wide pelves which impede bipedality/endurance running) (http://www.human-existence.com/publications/Up%20from%20dragons%20skoyles%20Big%20Heads%20running%20evolution.pdf), which would be expertise capacity since larger brains have more cortical columns.

  433. @Anne lid

    Yes, independent like sovereign state, not being a dependency of another state. Occasional foreign intervention is something else.

  434. @res

    OK, let’s tone down then. There’s no hand waving here.

    Do you think one factor like that makes up for a 100x difference in emigration rate for the low and high skilled groups?

    From this question, I think I now know where the misunderstanding is coming from and why you thought this data presents a dispositive case for you.

    The words “high skilled.” What is coming to your mind when you read those words?

    You’re probably thinking of doctors, lawyers and engineers from Africa. Or something. Or at least the top of university graduates.

    Your source just says that they have more than high school education. This includes people who have gone to a trade school to learn how to drill nails into wood. And of course a huge chunk of nurses who have left Africa because of a high demand for their friendly services in the West.

    I would be careful before assuming that this group is over 2 SD above the average home population in intelligence.

    Of course if I’m wrong and they are all the medical doctor types, then you are right. But I’m not wrong. There is an easy way to test that. I’ve covered this already in past articles: you look at their occupations in the UK (or US). Also, look at how many of their children qualify for free meals in school in the UK. A huge portion of this “highly skilled” group has children qualifying for free meals because of their very low income. All that data is available. These are not the doctors and engineers of Africa, even though there is a small number of doctors and engineers among them. There is no way they can be even 1 SD above the source population in intelligence.

    As I said above, the average nominal IQ of students at university level in Africa is just 1 SD above the general population, as it is in other countries (Rushton, et al) [I’m not calling them “your side” this time!]. It would not make sense that this group of just “above high school” educated migrants would be 1 SD above UNIVERSITY students/graduates. Even if it’s hypothetically possible, you CANNOT make that assumption from this data you shared.

    • 回复: @res
  435. res 说:
    @Okechukwu

    My natural ability along with my focus and studiousness meant that you’d have to be a grandmaster to beat me, even though I was only 12 or 13 years old. And even a grandmaster wouldn’t win every game against me.

    That is a strong assertion. What was your Elo rating at age 12 or 13?

    Here is last years U14 open world chess championships (despite the page title it is open, check the player first names and the linking page at http://wy2016.fide.com/ ): http://wy2016.fide.com/standings/open-girl-14/
    The highest ranked player from the USA (there are only 3 in the top 75) had a 2273 rating. His name is 6 FM Peng David T 2273
    and as you can see his title is FIDE Master. Here is his profile: https://chess-db.com/public/pinfo.jsp?id=2059355
    Notice that he is 14.

    The typical Grandmaster minimum is 2500. Are you saying you were the best player in the USA at your age? Even that isn’t enough to beat an International Master (minimum 2400) with any consistency.

    P.S. If there is one thing Africans and African-Americans are good at it is bragging. This makes a useful read: https://books.google.com/books?id=CkGw5WZ1yB4C&pg=PA83&lpg=PA83&dq=african+bragging

    • 回复: @Afrosapiens
    , @Okechukwu
  436. @utu

    Unz also reviewed interesting data on Jewish immigrants to the US.As I recall, the data Unz reviewed showed that, initially, they were rather dumb, but by the second or third generation there were terrifically smart (like Ron!), but now they’re getting dumber again, and barely more intelligent than your average Episcopalian (members of the Bush family, for example). So yes, culture probably counts for more than genes in explaining variation in population IQ test results.

  437. @Afrosapiens

    I’m not aware of genetic studies on the topic. But endurance in some East-African populations is a consequence of adaptation to altitude, a very vital adaptation, similar to malaria resistance. Those things generally leave strong signals of natural selection, with few alleles of substantial effect. Nothing like IQ.

    你是对的。

    https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/517e/9d33f5fee8e519b9225bd47cd4b1de7f905a.pdf

    I disagree with the authors who say that it’s not a unique physiologic or phenotypic difference though (people in higher altitudes intake more oxygen and have broader capillaries, so put two and two together).

    In summary, women and men from Ethiopia and Kenya, despite they accounted for <0.1 % in half-marathons and marathons, achieved the fastest race times and were the youngest in both half-marathons and marathons. These findings confirmed in the case of half-marathon the trend previously observed in marathon races for a better performance and a younger age in East African runners from Ethiopia and Kenya.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4771648/

    It’s definitely more towards somatype and some physiological mechanisms.

  438. res 说:
    @Afrosapiens

    Right. He has demonstrated that he knows what he is talking about and he does not make it personal with me. Remember who started our interaction in this thread with your comment 68:

    On an other thread, our friend res was about to prove that all of Nigeria’s IQ120+ population emigrated. Be careful, he has unbeatable and very logical arguments. LMAO.

    Not personal at all.

    • 回复: @Afrosapiens
  439. Jm8 说:
    @matt

    There is some disagreement on the degree of slave breeding, but in the US the primary method of maintaining the slave population was the “encouragement of natural increase”, and recent scholarship tends to suggest it was significant (source/links below).
    The extent of intentional/conscious selective breeding for particular traits is uncertain (I wasn’t necessarily referring to that in particular), but the intent and common practice of the US plantation system was to to produce a large quantity of unskilled chattel laborers as possible (I suspect the quantity vs quality argument Res makes has some merit, in addition to—also mentioned—the dislike by slaveowners of intelligent slaves, or a likely general bias not in favor of such), with the intent (on the part of many planters) of selling the resulting offspring at young ages, which was a substantial part of the US slave economy.

    The commonness of the use of studs in particular might be hard to know (and perhaps may not have been very common (though this could have varied by region), but the practice off forced breeding (which your source also refers to), and enforcement of “serial monogamy” to produce many offspring for labor and sale, was more so. I believe the practice was not usually to encourage “marriage” in the sense of long term relationships (those that they did form could be broken up).

    And in many cases, as the source (and others) also mentions that slaveowners rewarded and encouraged slaves that reproduced prolifically and promiscuously (aside from coercive methods).

    https://books.google.com/books?id=iwCKCgAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=american+slave+coast&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjZ9I2f6KjWAhWINSYKHfiJBt4Q6AEIKDAA#v=onepage&q=american%20slave%20coast&f=false

    It seems those kinds conditions would not advantage the intelligent, but if anything the reverse.
    The function/role of the black population in American was essentially that of a slave caste, with a dehumanized status (their legal status being that of chattel).
    Slave breeding (in its various forms) and family separation, was generally less common in the Caribbean and South America (and parts of the rice Coast of SC in the US, also known as the “Gullah” region), where the replacement of dead slaves by new ones from Africa was relatively more common, and landowners tended to interfere somewhat less in the lives of slaves—in that regard (though labor was generally very hard and punishments for attempted escape often extremely cruel). So related effects would likely be less of a factor there.

    “As I said here, I doubt that low status or warfare was highly selective against IQ in West Africa
    during the 1619-1807 period.”

    I’m not sure. It seems there would likely be a significant correlation when accounting for the fact that captives disproportionately included groups such as criminals and debtors (groups both generally less intelligent in most societies), and (in some societies) members of lower castes—a kind of group especially endogamous and specialized— in addition to the poor, slaves indentured servants/pawns, (generally) less advanced tribes (or sub tribes)
    The combination of these factors, seemingly, would likely amount (along with the environment of chattel slavery, disadvantageous to intelligence) to some bias. The importance of these (possibly) negatively selective factors, though could of course have varried according to African regions and ethnic group. Nonetheless, admittedly, it would be hard to estimate too closely how great a (negative) intelligence-correlation would be (as Res has said, it is to some degree a judgement call).

    Not everyone (or subgroup) poor or disadvantaged of course would have been less (or much less) intelligent (some were more unlucky). And some more elite and ordinary people were sold as well, but the disproportionate representation of the various lower groups, overall (it seems reasonable to guess) likely to be less intelligent, especially reinforced, however much, by the conditions of slavery, seems likely to produce a more than slight (and perhaps significant) skew in that direction.

    Your point re; inbreeding could have some truth (I’ve speculated to that effect as well), but as you say, it could be undone in one-a few generations (and to may be less common in—some at least—groups once they immigrate). Inbreeding has also decreases in many countries in over the last century or so. In regions of Europe where it was once relatively common (by European standards) and parts off Asia, like parts of Southern Europe, Scotland, and Ireland. It also declined in Japan, (HBDchick for instance has discussed that process in those countries on her blog) following the Meji and Taisho periods. So it can improve, and such improvement in some countries may/may have perhaps contribute something to the Flynn effect.

    • 回复: @Jm8
    , @matt
  440. @bomag

    The high abstract intelligence that fuels the modern machine society is almost negatively correlated with reproductive success.

    That was not the case, until the modern age, when two relevant things happened:

    First, contraception broke the link between economic success, which is closely linked to high intelligence, abstract or otherwise, to the ability to raise children to adulthood. Adam Smith expounded on that at length.

    Second, if group survival depends on the high abstract intelligence of a small minority, e.g., those who produce nuclear weapons, create industrial and agricultural revolutions, then groups producing individuals of high intelligence will achieve high reproductive success. That is obvious from the European population explosion of the 19th Century.

    • 回复: @Afrosapiens
    , @bomag
  441. res 说:
    @Afrosapiens

    Nor is anyone arguing that. This inability to distinguish between “some” and either “all” or “none” is fascinating.

    • 回复: @Afrosapiens
  442. @res

    使用 20 世纪早期的标准进行这些测试,当前人口中的一大群人会在哪里得分?

    Good question. But surely someone already has the answer. Or if not, then there can be no one in the IQ community who is serious about evaluating the influence of environmental factors and economic conditions on IQ. And if that is the case, it really destroys the credibility of IQism, proving it to be nothing more than a tool of racist propaganda.

    • 回复: @utu
  443. matt 说:
    @res

    My understanding is that distance from the sea tends to correlate with intelligence (though I am not finding supporting data in a quick search right now). Another possibility is that those who chose to trade with Europeans and did so successfully were more intelligent.

    Assuming the purported correlation exists (and it sounds plausible), I would imagine that would be an environmental, not a genetic, correlation. Proximity to the sea means more contact with the rest of the world which could easily stimulate IQ.. As for choosing to trade with Europeans, I’m not it’s a matter of choosing. In 17th-18th century West Africa, the means of transportation weren’t fantastic, so closeness to the sea was probably mostly a matter of geographic luck.

    Just to wrap up, in your earlier comment, you said this

    If I judge your background right you have a better handle on the magnitude of trait change possible for a given selection input over a given time than I do. Any thoughts on effect sizes we might see if my basic argument is true?

    My background in this stuff is almost entirely autodidactic, but I think I can give a very rough estimate of how much selection your hypothesis would require there to have occurred.

    Imagine sub-Saharan Africans (SSAs) as a whole had the same mean intelligence as subgroup of sub-Saharans who were the ancestors of African-Americans (AAs) (I know you disagree with that, but I think we basically reached a stalemate on that point, and I will go on to make several assumptions that are favorable to you.)

    Suppose SSAs and AAs diverged at the end of US participation in the slave trade in 1807, or 210 years ago or 8.4 generations (assuming a generation is 25 years; might be more, might be less).

    Suppose the narrow-sense heritability of intelligence during the last 210 years was .5 (in reality it was probably quite lower in earlier years).

    Suppose that SSAs suffer a 10-point or .667 SD environmental deficit in IQ relative to AAs (a conservative estimate if anything).

    Suppose that AAs get a 2 point advantage relative to SSAs from their European admixture.

    Suppose that SSAs don’t suffer any genetic deficit from inbreeding depression, selection, or anything else (in fact, they probably do).

    Suppose that SSAs match AAs for phenotypic IQ (as szopen conceded they might).

    This means that over the last 210 years, AAs would have needed to suffer 12 points (to offset the 2 point European genetic advantage and the 10 point environmental advantage) or .8 SD worth of negative selection.

    The breeder’s equation is

    R = nSh^2

    Where R is the response to selection, n is the number of generations, S is the selection differential, and h^2 is the narrow sense heritability. Plugging in our values we get:

    .8 SD = 8.4*.5S

    Which means that S = .19. Looking at this , that means that, in each of the 8 generations since the end of the slave trade, the smartest ~10% of blacks would have failed to reproduce.

    You can judge the plausibility of that for yourself. I don’t find it very plausible myself. I think most of my inputs were pretty generous to your position, some of them maybe not as generous as they should be, but you can play around with other figures and see what comes out. (Also let me know if I’m misinterpreting something, because I might be.)

    • 回复: @matt
    , @res
  444. @res

    How about you link to where specifically that was demonstrated so others can judge the truthfulness of your account? Hopefully everyone can get a pretty good idea from this thread though.

    Everybody can judge your attitude here.
    https://www.unz.com/jthompson/intelligent-lifespans

    There was a reason I specifically referenced my comment 253.

    Your comment 253 is a question to matt.

    Well at least you are admitting the some part. Now we can talk numbers. Like a 100x difference in the rate of emigration for low skill and high skill groups from Nigeria.

    I never held the no-selection at all position.

    How does that 100x difference relate to vague terms like “above-average” and “hyper-selected”? Please be more precise and try engaging with the data.

    Yes, let’s talk about actual data.

    Nigerians in the US:


    According to census data, almost 40% of Nigerian Americans hold bachelor’s degrees, 17% hold master’s degrees, and 4% hold doctorates, more than any other ethnic group in the nation.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nigerian_Americans#Education

    I find no data in Britain but I assume lower educational attainment.

    Anyway, that’s 61% of Nigerian-Americans having college degrees. Let’s suppose they were all born in Nigeria and all had Nigerian degrees. For your worthless figure of a 100 fold over-representation of college graduates among overseas Nigerians to be true, there would need to be only 0.61% of Nigerian adults in Nigeria holding such degrees. Doesn’t add up. End of the conversation.

    • 回复: @res
  445. @Santoculto

    I don’t think this dismiss entirely “Darwinian gradualism” as if the only way that happen is via “non-genetic”. This seems a exception or whatever, very common but not the only way or that gradualism is just wrong.

    If there are other ‘modes’ of evolution and physiology (meaning the intelligent cell) can respond to changes in the environment, then there are other mechanisms of evolution.

    This organisms must be analyzed at long term. Maybe this non genetic changes have unknown antecedents even because it’s create the idea that abrupt phenotypical changes can happen without a previous logical explanation. And “all genes” were “compared”??? Or just the correlated ones?? (yes I don’t know exactly what I’m talking but I’m like that, patience!!)

    No it’s pretty clear cut that there is little/no genetic change when some species morphology changes. That’s a big clue that physiology/cells can respond to the cues from the environment.

    Think about the cell. Most people think it’s not ‘intelligent’ and can’t ‘react to stimulus’, and that it cannot change phenotypically and can only change genotypically because of its short lifespan. This is not true. Over the past few years, papers have come out talking about ‘bacterial intelligence’ and ‘bacterial IQ’ showing that bacteria/cells can respond to cues from its environment. So taking this to its logical conclusion, all living things are intelligent.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3388793/

    Bacteria are far more intelligent than we can think of. They adopt different survival strategies to make their life comfortable. Researches on bacterial communication to date suggest that bacteria can communicate with each other using chemical signaling molecules as well as using ion channel mediated electrical signaling.

    http://cyber.sci-hub.bz/MTAuMTAwNy9zMTIwNzktMDE3LTAzOTQtNg==/10.1007%40s12079-017-0394-6.pdf

    Living things, then, need to be good at registering those statistical patterns across everyday experience and then use them to shape the best response, including (in the cell) what genes to recruit for desired products. This is what intelligence is, and it’s origins coincide with the origins of life itself, and life is intelligence. (理查森,2017:115)

    We propose that, if we were to leave terms such as “human” and “brain” out of the defining features of “intelligence,” all forms of life – from microbes to humans – exhibit some or all characteristics consistent with “intelligence.”

    http://journal.frontiersin.org/article/10.3389/fmicb.2014.00379/full

    bacteria use their intracellular flexibility, involving signal transduction networks and genomic plasticity, to collectively maintain linguistic communication: self and shared interpretations of chemical cues, exchange of chemical messages (semantic) and dialogues (pragmatic)

    https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/3371/b2b3779f92f62832993007b2d0b775d8c0a5.pdf

    https://notpoliticallycorrect.me/2017/07/13/microbial-intelligence-and-intelligent-physiology/

    Why should the terms ‘human’ and ‘brain’ signify ‘intelligence’? That’s a pretty anthropocentric view of evolution, so we shouldn’t classify it like that.

    Now take this to its logical conclusion: all organisms are intelligent.

    So through these intelligent cells (which the larger physiological system is made up of), they notice changes in the environment and evolutionary change occurs.

    • 回复: @Santoculto
  446. @Santoculto

    Firstly IQ tests are cognitive tests isn’t?? And after it correlates with socioeconomic variables.

    Elaborate that it’s a ‘cognitive test’ then we can talk about SES variables.

    People who score higher in IQ tests tend to be more motivated to increase their knowledge.

    I agree with Afrosapiens and Okechukwu that motivation can increase IQ scores.

    This is the study that Okechukwu linked to:

    After adjusting for the influence of test motivation, however, the predictive validity of intelligence for life outcomes was significantly diminished, particularly for nonacademic outcomes. Collectively, our findings suggest that, under low-stakes research conditions, some individuals try harder than others, and, in this context, test motivation can act as a third-variable confound that inflates estimates of the predictive validity of intelligence for life outcomes.

    http://www.pnas.org/content/108/19/7716.full.pdf

    I bet if higher IQ people without academic career even those in modest professions tend to accumulates more knowledge than those with lower and avg IQ but with academic credentials.

    源。

    • 回复: @Santoculto
    , @Szopen
    , @Szopen
  447. @MarkinLA

    How do you scam the parts of the IQ tests

    Can you point out where I said that IQ tests are ‘scammed’?

    visuo-spatial such as the case of picking the correct view of an object rotated in space

    Are you talking about Raven’s? Do you believe that it’s a truly culturally reduced IQ test (as Jensen claimed)?

    or the sequences of color changes in a multi sectioned object?

    能给我举个例子吗?

    They don’t seem to be related to any of those.

    Hmmm…. I wonder why certain SES/classes/countries would score poorer on RPM test…

    • 回复: @MarkinLA
  448. matt 说:
    @matt

    I forgot that the standard deviation of IQ in African-Americans is actually usually estimated to be 12 rather than 15. So, this would mean 12 points of selection would be 1 SD. That means that S would be about .24, which implies that somewhere between the smartest 10-20% of AAs would have failed to reproduce.

  449. Jm8 说:
    @Jm8

    Edit: …”selling the resulting offspring…, which was a substantial and very profitable part of the US slave economy.”

  450. Szopen 说:
    @Afrosapiens

    Google mainstream position oniq or wait whwn i will go back home so i could post you statement from irc 1990s about what is science position on iq.

    • 回复: @Afrosapiens
    , @RaceRealist88
  451. res 说:
    @Chanda Chisala

    OK, let’s tone down then. There’s no hand waving here.

    Sounds good. Hand waving or no I still see no quantitative engagement with that 100x difference in emigration rates.

    You’re probably thinking of doctors, lawyers and engineers from Africa. Or something. Or at least the top of university graduates.

    No. Please stop with the strawmen. I am thinking of some tertiary education as is described in the brain drain methodology note. Here is the relevant section:

    Educational categories. We distinguish three levels of education: primary (low
    skilled: includes lower secondary, primary and no schooling); secondary (mediumskilled: high-school leaving certificate or equivalent) and tertiary education (highskilled: higher than high-school leaving certificate or equivalent).

    回到你身边:

    There is an easy way to test that. I’ve covered this already in past articles: you look at their occupations in the UK (or US).

    You have heard of the problems immigrants (e.g. doctors) can have getting their credentials to transfer, right? Since I like evidence and am requesting you to present some below: http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/ct-merit-immigration-brain-waste-20170326-story.html

    I would be careful before assuming that this group is over 2 SD above the average home population in intelligence.

    I make no such assumption. Please stop with the strawmen.

    There is no way they can be even 1 SD above the source population in intelligence.

    Not proven. IMO that statement constitutes hand waving.

    As I said above, the average nominal IQ of students at university level in Africa is just 1 SD above the general population, as it is in other countries

    I am not disagreeing with that, but could you please provide a real citation? This discussion desperately needs real evidence (beyond the brain drain data of course).

    you CANNOT make that assumption from this data you shared.

    I make no such assumption. Please stop with the strawmen.

    Please spend more time talking about your own points and less time inventing strawman versions of mine.

    Are you disputing the 100x difference in emigration rates for low and high skill Nigerians? If so please clarify what 美味 相信。

    Are you disputing that at least some selective immigration exists? If so please clarify what 美味 相信。

    • 回复: @Chanda Chisala
  452. @res

    P.S. If there is one thing Africans and African-Americans are good at it is bragging. This makes a useful read

    Lol, that’s how res retracts all his claims to objectivity and unbiased argumentation.

    Now let’s talk about things at which angry white males are good at, like making up ridiculous theories to support their prejudices.

    Word of advice: don’t write immediately when you’re triggered. drink an infusion, call your mother, and make sure you’re relaxed when you reply. Otherwise, you’re gonna show some parts of your psyche that no one will forget.

    • 回复: @res
  453. @res

    Right. He has demonstrated that he knows what he is talking about and he does not make it personal with me.

    Something you failed to do in something like 99.99% of our exchanges.

    On an other thread, our friend res was about to prove that all of Nigeria’s IQ120+ population emigrated. Be careful, he has unbeatable and very logical arguments. LMAO.

    Not personal at all.

    Not personal at all. Chanda needs to know that the guy he’s talking to has a solid theory. LMAO.

  454. Okechukwu 说:
    @res

    Chess was a short-lived childhood passion and nothing more. I lost all interest in it by 9th grade. My lack of interest probably coincided with puberty and getting into girls in earnest. Chess geeks don’t get the chicks. Haha.

    Now I occasionally even lose to scrubs on the Internet. It’s like anything else, practice, dedication and focus are at least as determinative as natural ability. Since the juggernaut days of my youth I just haven’t been into chess in a serious way. But if you had put the the highest skill level chess players in front of me at that time, it wouldn’t be a foregone conclusion that I would lose. I was that good.

    If there is one thing Africans and African-Americans are good at it is bragging.

    Yet we’re not the ones claiming to be racially, genetically and intellectually superior, you are. That’s quintessential bragging. Race & IQ buffs are actually a bunch of braggarts, often trying to compensate for low self-esteem or deep pangs of inferiority.

    • 回复: @res
  455. @res

    RaceRealist is my buddy, we’ve discussed that extensively, I know his opinion, he knows mine, we do agree on this matter. Mind your own business.

  456. res 说:
    @Afrosapiens

    Everybody can judge your attitude here.

    Perhaps. I would say that is equally true for both of us. I am content with that.

    Your comment 253 is a question to matt.

    Really? So you are just going to ignore the first part? My comment 253:
    “Sorry about that. But why not just actually talk to them. Do you really think someone needs to use social class as a proxy for IQ?”

    Anyway, that’s 61% of Nigerian-Americans having college degrees. Let’s suppose they were all born in Nigeria and all had Nigerian degrees. For your worthless figure of a 100 fold over-representation of college graduates among overseas Nigerians to be true, there would need to be only 0.61% of Nigerian adults in Nigeria holding such degrees. Doesn’t add up. End of the conversation.

    Thanks for providing numbers. Let’s dig into that. First, you do follow Wikipedia links to check the data, right? Wikipedia is not the most reliable source, especially when you see words like “almost.”

    Doing that we find the following:

    According to 2006 census data, 37 percent of Nigerians in the U.S. had bachelor’s degrees, 17 percent held master’s degrees and 4 percent had doctorates. In contrast, the same census data showed only 19 percent of white Americans had bachelor’s degrees, 8 percent held master’s degrees and only 1 percent held doctorates, the paper reports.

    I tried following the links further but they end at a generic census page (a red flag IMHO) so I can neither confirm them nor check whether the three categories are overlapping (essentially all doctorate holders also hold a bachelors degree). But let’s run with the corrected numbers: 37+17+4 = 58%

    Regarding: “only 0.61% of Nigerian adults in Nigeria holding such degrees. Doesn’t add up.”

    You do understand the brain drain data has both immigration and emigration data, right? I believe the emigration data is derived by totaling up the OECD immigration data. Here is the data for Nigerian immigrants to the US by total/low/medium/high skill level: 54838 9326 3406 42106
    So 77% of Nigerian immigrants had some tertiary education. Complete consistent with 58% holding college degrees. In fact, I would say that is more confirming evidence for the brain drain data being correct than a refutation.

    Thanks for your information. Once corrected it helps estimate how important the issue Chanda raises about “some tertiary education” not being the same as “has college degree” is. I guess he was right in his concern about someone making that mistake. It just wasn’t me. He covered that issue well so here is a link to his comment: https://www.unz.com/article/my-last-word-on-the-scrabble-and-iq-debate-2/#comment-2009307

    对话结束。

    不错的尝试。

    P.S. That is what a quantitative refutation looks like. Could at least one person arguing with me here try doing something similar? This case provides a good example of how easy it is for superficially convincing hand waving arguments to be wrong. Hence my requests for data rather than hand waving.

    • 回复: @Afrosapiens
  457. @szopen

    This study shows a cranial capacity of 1424cc in a sample of 300 North-East Nigerian men and 1331cc in women.

    http://docsdrive.com/pdfs/ansinet/jas/2011/2662-2665.pdf

    The ethnicity of the region is Kanuri. Please don’t invent magical Igboes here.

    • 回复: @Szopen
    , @Szopen
  458. @CanSpeccy

    First, contraception broke the link between economic success, which is closely linked to high intelligence,

    It isn’t, the heritability of income is not that heigh, neither is the correlation with IQ.

    What you say is true if you replace intelligence by education though.

  459. @Szopen

    If you’re talking about Linda Gottfredson’s mainstream science on intelligence, please don’t bother.

    She just invited her hereditarian friends to co-sign her statement. No neuroscientist on the list.

    • 回复: @Szopen
  460. utu 说:
    @CanSpeccy

    there can be no one in the IQ community who is serious about evaluating the influence of environmental factors and economic conditions on IQ

    You can bet on this. James Flynn was an exception, perhaps a whistleblower. When I first learned about the Flynn effect I thought it was a mortal blow to the hard core IQ business but apparently the vampire needs to have a wooden stake driven through its heart. One reason that vampires are so hard to kill it is because they do not know they are really dead. You have to teach them that but it very hard to reason with the undead. Wooden stakes are much more effective.

  461. @Szopen

    纸在这里:

    This statement outlines conclusions regarded as mainstream among researchers on intelligence, in particular, on the nature, origins, and practical consequences of individual and group differences in intelligence. Its aim is to promote more reasoned discussion of the vexing phenomenon that the research has revealed in recent decades.

    https://www1.udel.edu/educ/gottfredson/reprints/1997mainstream.pdf

  462. res 说:
    @matt

    It looks like my supposition was correct ; )

    Thanks! That was fascinating (sincerely, I am using that word sarcastically far too much in this thread). I especially appreciate your willingness to share your assumptions (I agree with your generous to my position comment) and calculations.

    I think you provide a compelling (I don’t think either of us thinks it is definitive though) case against selection while being enslaved being adequate to account for a dominant part of the difference. That shifts my prior beliefs in possible effect size a bit so thanks again.

    Do you have a good definitive reference for the breeder’s equation? In comment 177 utu asked a question about later generation effects of a single round of selection and the best reference I could find was not as good as I would like. Do you have any comment on our disagreement there?

    P.S. While doing some related searches I found this paper: https://arxiv.org/pdf/1509.01351
    Quantitative Genetics Meets Integral Projection Models: Unification of Widely Used Methods from Ecology and Evolution

    In this paper we develop a framework to study genetic and phenotypic change when the map between genotype and phenotype can be complicated by factors now routinely reported by
    empiricists.

    Thought you might be interested if you don’t already know about it. I did not read it in any detail, but it looks relevant to this conversation.

  463. @res

    Perhaps. I would say that is equally true for both of us. I am content with that.

    I already told you that my argumentation was flawless. You have no other choice but to agree.

    Really? So you are just going to ignore the first part? My comment 253:
    “Sorry about that. But why not just actually talk to them. Do you really think someone needs to use social class as a proxy for IQ?”

    Sorry about what? Why aren’t you sorry for the pathetic things you’ve said to me, or that last racist remark to Okechukwu?

    Thanks for providing numbers. Let’s dig into that. First, you do follow Wikipedia links to check the data, right? Wikipedia is not the most reliable source, especially when you see words like “almost.”

    I do when I have time. Anyway, my numbers are true.

    So 77% of Nigerian immigrants had some tertiary education. Complete consistent with 58% holding college degrees. In fact, I would say that is more confirming evidence for the brain drain data being correct than a refutation.

    Not so much, we don’t know if those college degrees held by Nigerians are American or Nigerian. I don’t know if the figures include second-generation immigrants as well.

    P.S. That is what a quantitative refutation looks like. Could at least one person arguing with me here try doing something similar? This case provides a good example of how easy it is for superficially convincing hand waving arguments to be wrong. Hence my requests for data rather than hand waving.

    No, that’s what wishful thinking looks like.

    • 回复: @res
    , @utu
  464. Santoculto 说:
    @RaceRealist88

    I agree that all living beings can be defined as intelligent it’s stupid to think that life survive and evolved without some very primeval form of intelligence. But seems obvious to conclude that human beings are the smartest of all.

    Gradualism and evolution is basically the same thing, both in semantic and practical contexts. So gradualism in my view is not just one model, it’s the primordially referencial model but I no doubt that physiological non-genetic changes can happen for example if I’m not saying any improbity, when we start to exercise and increase our muscles. This changes unlikely will be passed to our hypothetical descendents but it was a physiological change without to be genetic too, at individual levels.

    Sometimes I think bacterias look like microscopic insets.

  465. res 说:
    @Afrosapiens

    You did see the book I referenced talking about cultural differences between African-Americans and European-Americans regarding attitudes towards bragging, right?

    Do you have a reference to support your assertion?

    • 回复: @Afrosapiens
  466. res 说:
    @Okechukwu

    Yet we’re not the ones claiming to be racially, genetically and intellectually superior, you are.

    Cite needed. And while you are at please define how you are using the word “superior” in that sentence. Group averages, individuals, or …?

    What was your Elo rating again? If you were good enough to win a LA city championship I assume you had a rating at some point? If not, on what do you base your assertion: “you’d have to be a grandmaster to beat me”? That’s a rather grandiose statement to make without some supporting evidence. Have you ever played an International Master? If so, what happened?

  467. Santoculto 说:
    @RaceRealist88

    I need to define what is cognitive test??

    Yes but this motivation is intrinsic, a type of self motivation.

    I say “I bet”. What do you think about my statement? Do you think it’s unlikely a low income higher IQ person be more intellectually motivated than a high income/educated avg or lower IQ person?

    Many other aspects can be analyzed: Social networking, conformity, materialistic life goals, hard working that make some people more “successful” even without a great cognitive skills.

    • 回复: @Santoculto
    , @Santoculto
  468. @res

    I would be careful before assuming that this group is over 2 SD above the average home population in intelligence.

    I make no such assumption. Please stop with the strawmen.

    Res, stop telling me to stop doing what I’m not doing. [That, is what is annoying. But we’ll keep tone down.]

    It’s not a strawman to point out what your position/argument logically implies.

    If these migrants are NOT at least 2 SDs selected, THEN you have NO ARGUMENT. Certainly NOT against me.

    If the population of Africa has an IQ of 70, then these migrants ARE logically over +2 SDs selected, if you’re saying that this is what EXPLAINS their children’s performance.

    The problem we were trying to solve is WHY their children appear to have an IQ that is around or above 100. Some people said it is because their parents were the super-elite of Africa. Those are the only ones who could produce children that are at 100 IQ AFTER regression to the mean.

    Remember that these scores apply even to children of the same migrants who were born before migrating. They begin with low scores in school when they arrive in the UK and seem to catch up in time.

    This means you can’t use the other way out people try: that the parents were only 1 SD selected, but had a 15 IQ deficit from bad environment that was additionally corrected in their children. You can’t say that because this would exclude their Africa-born children from experiencing this IQ-raising “miracle.”

    So, tell me yourself: how selected are these African immigrants in SD terms above the African mean?

    • 回复: @res
  469. Santoculto 说:
    @Santoculto

    I think already there studies counter arguing about extrinsic or short term motivation as differential factor for IQ scores.

  470. Szopen 说:
    @Afrosapiens

    Thanks. I will read it in a free time. Now, if you cared to rwad what i have written youbwill know that i am open to possibility that some african subpopulations mught be mors inteligent than even europeans; as well as the possibilitu that brain sizecdies not mean much; what i cant stand, though, iscthevideavthatvall himan populations, whether largw ie racez or small have exactly thevsame intellectual average potential

  471. Szopen 说:
    @Afrosapiens

    Sorry about thevrypis. I am writing from mobile phone with polish autocorrect…

    • 回复: @res
  472. Szopen 说:
    @Afrosapiens

    Yes, i thought about that letter. Nite that everyone is hereditarian now ( ie everyonw is acknowledging some role of the gwnes) and the opposite side lost the deBate (ie no one is claiming now genez play no role). Moreover, its wrong to dismiss scientists by saying (they are heteditariana” when do many of scientists are hereditarians. Frankly i know no neurosciebtist who investigated iq who would deny iq is (crude) proxy for intelligence. Whwn i will go back i will google the results of polls on iq – iirc msjority of psychologists believw iq is a proxy for intelligence, and is hereditary (partially). Right now i am drinking at my wifez parents wedding anniversary so i am not writing completelt clearly, sory 🙂

    • 回复: @Afrosapiens
  473. Santoculto 说:
    @Santoculto

    Some months before I was try to teach or to expose superficial knowledge about recent history of Germany and Europe to a low cognitively skilled student. I talked about Berlin wall, communism, capitalism, cold war, Germany, 80’s. All this matter for us is abstract because we are in Brazil, in 2017, to start, but also because all this information even they have its respective concrete sources/origins (all abstractions have) have a abstract nature. She don’t pay attention for me and my teaching. So I coined the term “abstract attention”. With or without motivation pay attention for abstract information seems in my pedantic view the most important. Of course it’s doesn’t mean she don’t pay attention for other abstractions for example about “feelings”. But she seems have very difficulty to find that more intellectual information I talked relevant for her life. This natural or easy familiarity with this informations seems fundamental to differentiate higher from lower IQ people. Low cognitively skilled individuals are much more practical when they internalize information and usually this informations must be strongly related at personal levels while at priori many of informations “we” internalize are not directly related at personal levels, for example about the behavior of certain amazonian species. I see the unnecessary intellectual suffering of this girl when the school pretend to think all students have the same potential. School become a social laboratory instead a place where real knowledge about psychology is being applied in real time and self actualizing.

    So I believe this abstract attention is or may be a aspect of this intrinsic intellectual motivation, it’s not a negotiable trait but a instinctive/inborn trait that obviously can fluctuates at individual levels but with expected individual limitations.

  474. Szopen 说:
    @RaceRealist88

    [错别字太多。]

    Was the study replicared? No? Then, gi en how much cintroversiez arose around priming , stereotype thrsat and replication crisis, the studycshould not be givsn much weight.

  475. @res

    You did see the book I referenced talking about cultural differences between African-Americans and European-Americans regarding attitudes towards bragging, right?

    I saw that you googled African+Bragging. And it smells like confirmation bias. It’s actually crazy to realize that since Okechukwu mentioned his chess prowess, you had to search whether bragging was a racial trait. Now you’re not simply stupid, you’re disgusting.

    By the way, there is no African-American on this thread (none that I’m aware of).

    Do you have a reference to support your assertion?

    Your attitude is a compelling reference to the fact I state.

    • 回复: @utu
  476. Szopen 说:
    @RaceRealist88

    [Too many typos!!]

    I am nowcdrunk and i could miss something but thiscstudy is laughable. They di nit chanfevthe motovation in wxperimwntal setting butvmerely analysed exuzting studies while measuring how motivatex were particioants and what were the incentives. Finding that lower sciring people got lowet iq scores and then using complicated modeks to decide that actually it was motivation which was decisive dies not seem to be very convoncing to me – at leadt not nos, and i alrwsdt wrote. I am drunk 🙂

    • 回复: @RaceRealist88
    , @Afrosapiens
  477. @Szopen

    Sorry about thevrypis. I am writing from mobile phone with polish autocorrect…

    ...

    Right now i am drinking at my wifez parents wedding anniversary so i am not writing completelt clearly, sory 🙂

    LMAO! You rock, you’re definitely that Polish guy.

    Nite that everyone is hereditarian now ( ie everyonw is acknowledging some role of the gwnes) and the opposite side lost the deBate (ie no one is claiming now genez play no role).

    Gottfredson’s letter makes more claims than just stating the heritability of IQ. And those claims are far from being representative of any mainstream consensus in psychology or neuroscience.

    Frankly i know no neurosciebtist who investigated iq who would deny iq is (crude) proxy for intelligence. Whwn i will go back i will google the results of polls on iq – iirc msjority of psychologists

    The poll I know and that I think you’re referring to just had 70 respondents. Uninformative.

    Thanks. I will read it in a free time. Now, if you cared to rwad what i have written youbwill know that i am open to possibility that some african subpopulations mught be mors inteligent than even europeans; as well as the possibilitu that brain sizecdies not mean much; what i cant stand, though, iscthevideavthatvall himan populations, whether largw ie racez or small have exactly thevsame intellectual average potential

    You can’t stand it? Well, that’s a personal issue of yours.

    The correlation between brain size and IQ is only something like 0.30. There are no strong neurological correlates of IQ.

    Northern populations tend to have larger eyeballs and sight-related brain areas in adaptation to low light environment. I remember a study about it, you’ll easily find it on google when you’re sober lol.

    • 回复: @utu
    , @phil
    , @szopen
  478. @Szopen

    Talk to me when you’re sober, at a computer and can type coherently. I cannot decipher what you’re saying.

    • 回复: @szopen
  479. @Szopen

    There is actually a meta-analysis of 50 studies on motivation. It’s robust and easy to understand that since IQ is not measured on passive subjects, it is vulnerable to factors of this kind.

  480. res 说:
    @Afrosapiens

    I already told you that my argumentation was flawless.

    A legend in his own mind. Way to quote bad stats from Wikipedia by the way. That sure was not flawless.

    racist remark

    Just when you start losing in a provable way. Right on cue.

    I do when I have time. Anyway, my numbers are true.

    No. They are not. Which I showed quite clearly. I love the denial of reality.

    Not so much, we don’t know if those college degrees held by Nigerians are American or Nigerian. I don’t know if the figures include second-generation immigrants as well.

    What? Are you somehow attempting to argue that more than 77% of Nigerian immigrants have college degrees? Because that is what you would need to prove the brain drain data is wrong.

    The FUD thing gets really old and in this case just shows your inability to either make a real argument or admit to the validity of mine.

    No, that’s what wishful thinking looks like.

    LOL!

    • 回复: @Afrosapiens
  481. res 说:
    @Chanda Chisala

    It’s not a strawman to point out what your position/argument logically implies.

    What on Earth does your 2SD statement have to do with my position?

    If these migrants are NOT at least 2 SDs selected, THEN you have NO ARGUMENT. Certainly NOT against me.

    Not proven. More hand waving.

    If the population of Africa has an IQ of 70, then these migrants ARE logically over +2 SDs selected, if you’re saying that this is what EXPLAINS their children’s performance.

    But I am not saying that. My comment 164 lays out my Scrabble position quite clearly (perhaps you could do something similar for your own position?). With a multifactorial explanation like that no single factor has to carry all of the explanatory load.

    The problem we were trying to solve is WHY their children appear to have an IQ that is around or above 100. Some people said it is because their parents were the super-elite of Africa. Those are the only ones who could produce children that are at 100 IQ AFTER regression to the mean.

    That’s not my argument. On the selection side I am simply arguing that some level of selection exists as 证明 by the brain drain data. Do you really not understand this? Stop trying to assign other people’s views to me.

    So, tell me yourself: how selected are these African immigrants in SD terms above the African mean?

    I don’t know and have never made a claim (as far as I can recall, if you disagree please give a link to where I do so) otherwise (well except that the selection is >0). How selected do you think they are?

    • 回复: @Chanda Chisala
  482. res 说:
    @Szopen

    polish autocorrect

    Thanks for explaining. I was wondering what was going on.

  483. Okechukwu 说:
    @szopen

    First, yes, IQ is a proxy for intelligence.

    Nope. If IQ were a proxy for intelligence individual and group scores would remain static for all eternity. And the Flynn Effect would be impossible.

    Second, there were also things like measuring reaction times.

    Interestingly, humans are slower to react to stimuli than many animals, who are not exactly geniuses by human standards. And I doubt that a 125 IQ cardiologist has quicker reaction times than an 80 IQ professional athlete. My money would be on the professional athlete.

    Third, there is also things like measuring how many numbers one can remember and repeat them in the same and opposite order.

    I suppose that’s measuring something. But an even more impressive feat of mental acuity is routinely performed by black freestyle rappers. If we really want to answer these questions we really should expand the scope of IQ testing. Let’s have some people at the furthermost right point of the bell curve extemporaneously improvise complex rap verses that rhyme and tell a story. Not based on any preconceived or familiar ideas, but rather the instantaneous give and take of a rap battle. My guess is we’ll discover that many of them have much slower mental reaction times and processing power than double-digit IQ amateur rappers, even despite having expansive vocabularies.

    The research on stereotype threat is quite likely to be fraudulent, and often is reported in a way which has nothing to do with the findings. Moreover, already Jensen has noticed that effects of stereotype threat can be explained by other, already known phenomenon (influence of stress on people with different level of abilities).

    Dodge. Dodge. Dodge. Dispute everything that contradicts your ideology. We all know this song and dance. Stereotype threat is an established and confirmed phenomenon. Even I experience it sometimes and I’ve been around white people all my life. And Jensen? LOL. Don’t make me laugh.

    Repeating it does not make a proof. On contrary I think that there is such an evidence, and the notion that such potential would be distributed exactly the same in every population is absurd.

    Yes. That’s evidence that is impossible to ascertain at this time. But you know the old saying, “the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.” In addition to that, we can observe in the real world abundant evidentiary proofs of equal distributions. Moreover, if intellectual potential is not distributed equally, it doesn’t automatically follow that your preferred hierarchy should prevail. The assumption people like you make is that finding this holy grail of race-based gradients in intelligence will confirm your presuppositions. But if, as you suggest, equality is impossible, then you should allow for the possibility that you are the unequal one.

    “Their contemporaries” are not black, just for the record. I know there are “we wuz kings” people going around, so this is just a reminder.

    Irrelevant. Nevertheless, some of them were black or had black elements. The Nubians were certainly black. The Egyptians were black or had significant black elements. Even the Romans had black elements as did the Moors.

    You do realise that the fact that, for example, the fact Jews has higher IQ today and it might be caused by biological factors does not mean their ancestors had also higher IQ? Also, that in addition to such genetic factors there is also an environment?

    Dude, it took millions of years to evolve the human brain. Human brains haven’t changed in 100,000 years. Now you’re suggesting that Jewish brains were altered in a few hundred years? What’s more plausible is that freed from intense persecution and pogroms, Jewish cultural practices enabled them to become very successful. Nothing happened to their brains, bro.

    • 同意: Afrosapiens, utu
  484. matt 说:
    @Jm8

    with the intent (on the part of many planters) of selling the resulting offspring at young ages, which was a substantial part of the US slave economy.

    Fogel and Engerman (hereafter F&E) disagree that breeding slaves for the market was a substantial or profitable part of the US economy (see the page I linked).

    I believe the practice was not usually to encourage “marriage” in the sense of long term relationships (those that they did form could be broken up).

    他们 可以 be broken up, and they sometimes were, but F&E (and this appears to be the consensus among historians these days) argue that generally slaveowners not only did not interfere with family formation, but actually encouraged it. Breaking up families demoralized slaves (not good for productivity), provoked escape attempts, and was very bad PR, as it provided ideological fodder for abolitionists. It wasn’t good business. See 这件作品 by John McWhorter for an accessible overview.

    And in many cases, as the source (and others) also mentions that slaveowners rewarded and encouraged slaves that reproduced prolifically and promiscuously (aside from coercive methods).

    F&E, pp. 136ff. Slaves appear to have had a relatively late age of marriage, higher fecundity after marriage, and small age differences between spouses. As the McWhorter piece shows, citing F&E among others, about two-thirds of slave families were two-parent households. This much different than the US today, let alone West Africa.

    I’m not sure. It seems there would likely be a significant correlation when accounting for the fact that captives disproportionately included groups such as criminals and debtors (groups both generally less intelligent in most societies), and (in some societies) members of lower castes—a kind of group especially endogamous and specialized— in addition to the poor, slaves indentured servants/pawns, (generally) less advanced tribes (or sub tribes)

    Again, I have no idea what the narrow-sense heritability of IQ in 17th-18th century West Africa was, but I have no reason to think it was high. I’m not even sure how big the phenotypic difference between social groups was. It’s true that lower-caste groups can generally be expected to have lower IQs, certainly in modern market economies, but this isn’t always the case, especially in a pre-modern society. For example, in India (the focal point for the concept of “caste”), as late as the 1960s, there was 相关性不大 between caste and IQ or academic achievement (if you ask me, this is also an argument against most versions of the global hereditarian hypothesis).

    Besides, as I understand, most of the exported slaves came not from lower-status people within the society, but from conquered enemies, and I don’t think genetic differences are necessary to explain why the coastal slave-exporting states were frequently victorious over inland societies. As I pointed out to res, the slave-exporting states, being located on the coast, had more contact with Europeans, and therefore more wealth because of trade, and, in particular, access to firearms purchased from Europeans.

    • 回复: @Jm8
  485. @Okechukwu

    Human brains haven’t changed in 100,000 years.

    Not exactly. They have actually shrunk in size in the past 30K years
    https://phys.org/news/2011-02-brains-smarter.html

    • 同意: Okechukwu
    • 回复: @Okechukwu
    , @RaceRealist88
  486. @res

    A legend in his own mind. Way to quote bad stats from Wikipedia by the way. That sure was not flawless.

    That’s flawless too.

    Just when you start losing in a provable way. Right on cue.

    Pardon me sir? Do I need to quote your dumb, gross, racist generalization?

    If there is one thing Africans and African-Americans are good at it is bragging.

    As our friend santoculto says: you no have self-awareness.

    What? Are you somehow attempting to argue that more than 77% of Nigerian immigrants have college degrees? Because that is what you would need to prove the brain drain data is wrong.

    Whatever! I’m simply saying that an unknown part of these Nigerian-Americans were not born in Nigeria or didn’t have college degrees when they left Nigeria.

    The FUD thing gets really old and in this case just shows your inability to either make a real argument or admit to the validity of mine.

    Lol! I return the compliment with pleasure.

    LOL!

    For the thousandth time (Yeah I know, I didn’t say it a thousand times, don’t take it literally again) there is nothing to laugh about unless you laugh about yourself.

    • 哈哈: res
  487. utu 说:
    @Afrosapiens

    The correlation between brain size and IQ is only something like 0.30. There are no strong neurological correlates of IQ.

    Many correlations widely distributed and hailed by the IQists (types like Linda G.) that IQ correlates with many good things in life, like success, often underwent the so called restricted range corrections that always result in increasing the value of correlation. Some formulas for the correction were developed by Spearman and they have free parameters that has to be picked based on judgment and what is most funny that if you over do it you can even produce mathematical impossibility, i.e, the correlation larger than 1. Spearman was really very gifted mathematician, you know. The restricted range correction amounts to extrapolation to regions where you have no data. Sometimes the assumption for particular extrapolation method can be right and sometimes they are not which you can verify only by acquiring real empirical data in the expanded range. We all know what may happen when you try to extrapolate your salary in January beyond Christmas when the company you work for goes out of business in July. Let me illustrate how to boost the brain size vs. IQ correlation. Add to your data set the brain of fetus with BrainSize=0 and IQ=x, where x can be zero or you tweak it to get the best result (no intelligence does not mean IQ=0 because the IQ scale is self referential, ie., kind of arbitrary). Anyways appending your data with the brain of fetus will guarantee boosting the correlation. This can be considered a restricted range correction.

    • 回复: @Afrosapiens
  488. By the way, speaking of santoculto, do you guys know that you can ignore him using the agree/disagree/etc button. You might be wanting to ignore res as well, it’s the same button.

  489. This much different than the US today, let alone West Africa.

    Marriage rate is very high in West Africa, and illegitimacy very low. Polygamous marriages certainly do not account for more than 1/3 of unions.

    • 回复: @res
    , @matt
  490. Okechukwu 说:
    @Afrosapiens

    True. But with likely no impact on cognition. Unless perhaps we’ve gotten dumber, which actually wouldn’t be out of the realm of possibility. Maybe the guys ob