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在当今的非宗教,甚至是反宗教的气候中,流行的方式是将基督教视为简陋的迷信,并明智地谈论教会与国家的分离。 这是不幸的,也是愚蠢的,因为基督教是迄今为止世界上最伟大的文明的心脏和灵魂。 那些一无所知的人无法理解过去的XNUMX年以及我们的世界如何发展。

叛逆的犹太人创立了基督教(大多数犹太人不久之后就希望他们没有),这是一种失去控制的异端邪说,与犹太教失去了所有相似之处,并最终遍及欧洲,俄罗斯,北美和南美,澳大利亚和拜占庭帝国。 在所有这些方面,它塑造了文化,艺术,哲学,文学以及思维的框架。 其中很多都是极好的,并且仍然是无与伦比的。

真是太棒了! 今天的旅行者可能已经看到秘鲁安第斯山脉的库斯科教堂,西西里的诺曼教堂,索尔兹伯里的圣母院,巴塞罗那的精美大教堂,圣索菲亚大教堂,俄罗斯东正教的仪式。 在没有结构钢的情况下及时建造许多建筑所需的艺术性令人惊讶。 今天在墨西哥,在一个又一个小镇的小镇上,人们发现了中央广场上的教堂,这些教堂各不相同,有许多辉煌而宁静的地方。 无论采用哪种方式,在新教徒抛弃半信半疑的披风之前,旅行者就可以进入并了解他所看到的一切。

巴塞罗那大教堂,主要建于1300年代。 这种能力的东西不再被建造。
巴塞罗那大教堂,主要建于1300年代。 这种能力的东西不再被建造。

建筑只是很长一段的第一个音节。 从基督教世界传来的古典音乐,其中大部分是基督教音乐:圣马修激情,汉德尔的弥赛亚以及整个基督教形式的世俗音乐。 犹太人在最近的几个世纪末来到餐桌上,有一段时间(似乎即将结束)在艺术和科学领域的生产中与犹太人的比例大相径庭,但早在基督教世界建立的框架内。 现在,朝鲜人和中国人开始这样做。 穆斯林的特点是几乎什么也没做。

不仅在音乐和建筑方面,而且在绘画,文学和照明手稿中,美学元素都得到了体现。有人可能会争辩说迪福或塞万提斯是发明这本小说,还是法国或美国发明了飞机,但两者都来自基督教世界。 信仰的天才不仅出现在神圣的艺术中,而且出现在对其他主题作品的宽容,甚至是对他们的鼓励。 例如,切利尼的珀尔修斯(Perseus)几乎不是基督徒,但在15oo的意大利受到极大的赞赏。 不会在大马士革。

英仙座。 如果有其他信仰产生了基督教世界艺术的范围和质量,我就不会意识到。 意大利人不再相信古典的神灵和神话,但他们也不再受到它们的威胁。
英仙座。 如果有其他信仰产生了基督教世界艺术的范围和质量,我就不会意识到。 意大利人不再相信古典的神灵和神话,但他们也不再受到它们的威胁。

该列表可能会继续增加。 在希腊人和罗马的枯燥法术之后,数学就像物理,化学以及几乎所有事物一样,都是基督教的事业。 其他人将在这些领域内工作。 他们不是起源的。

中东的另一种主要宗教伊斯兰教出现于七世纪,占领了广阔的领土,但很快就沦为知识懒惰,此后几乎除了华丽的地毯和一些可爱的清真寺外什么也没有。 这种黑暗不是遗传起源的。 被伊斯兰征服的许多人都是先进的和令人印象深刻的,例如波斯人。 而是由于对思想和探究的蓄意憎恶而导致的。 (回教思想的关闭 对此很有用。)据称的几个世纪以来 共存 西班牙的三种宗教中, koom bah yah, 和闪烁的伊斯兰智慧很大程度上是学术上的宣传。 (安达卢西亚天堂的神话 处理得很好。)

天主教尤其将精神方面的关注与强烈的知识倾向相结合。 基督教徒对起源,命运和人的目的的关注引起了从教父到CS刘易斯的深刻思考。 今天,人们认为诸如死亡和意义之类的事情的品位很差。 对存在的奇妙和陌生不屑一顾,我们看着塞恩费尔德重播,并祝贺自己没有注意宗教性的东西。 我们生活在某种形式的马克思主义或迪斯尼乐园之下,并且变得更加自满。

俄罗斯东正教。 不管是什么,单调不是。
俄罗斯东正教。 不管是什么,单调不是。

因此,我认为试图将基督教视为纯粹的附加物或风格与基督教世界的成就无关。 这是历史文盲。 阅读罗马晚期到现在为止的任何思想家和作家,您会发现他们认真对待自己的信仰,这创造了他们的思想世界。 奥古斯丁,牛顿,塞缪尔·约翰逊, 悉尼史密斯 最近,在美国,清教徒,贵格会等等。 其中许多人是高智商。 社会学教授对他们的随意解雇是因为猴子从窗户上扔书。

文艺复兴时期完全是对基督教世界的一种表达。 不管你是基督徒,不是我,这都不是重点。 不,基督徒比其他任何人都没有道德。 教皇像任何有机会的人一样四处游荡。 然而,文明却创造了奇迹。

有充分的证据表明,远不如天主教华丽的新教徒导致了资本主义,而资本主义又导致了现代西方(无论人们怎么想)。 例如,请参见 新教伦理与资本主义精神.

在我们这个物质的,不是很周到的时代,时尚是指教会所犯的罪行,它的血脉,虚伪和不道德。 他们存在。 基督徒的举止和举止与其他所有人一样可怕。 但这是人类努力中的通常现象。 作为道德的接受者,基督教是欺诈性的。 作为一种文化和文明,它具有极其重要的意义。 也许有人会指出,无神论独裁者-毛,斯大林,波尔布特-保持谋杀记录。

随后在XNUMX世纪出现了中东起源的第三种伟大宗教,即共产主义。 直接像基督教一样,间接像伊斯兰教一样,它是犹太人的产物。 从来没有这么小的人民对历史产生过如此大的影响。

许多人想知道一种宗教,即犹太教,如何带来一个无神论者……我想要什么词? 哲学? 我认为答案是犹太教不是宗教,而是身份和仪式的问题。 至少,我认为我从未见过一个犹太人,他在创世记的六天内相信了,或者罗得的妻子成盐,或者约拿被一条大鱼吞下了,然后又重新出现了,没有被消化。 实际上是基督徒和穆斯林 相信 事情,尽管许多前者诉诸于精神运动来调和信仰和科学。

无论如何,共产主义杀死了数千万人并死了,留下了恶臭和别的东西。

加泰罗尼亚人AnatoniGaukí的巴塞罗那圣家堂(Sagrada Familia)于1926年去世。无论您将其视为可爱还是古怪,它都是曾经风靡一时的信仰的最后一场建筑喘息。
加泰罗尼亚人AnatoniGaukí的巴塞罗那圣家堂(Sagrada Familia)于1926年去世。无论您将其视为可爱还是古怪,它都是曾经风靡一时的信仰的最后一场建筑喘息。

未来? 基督教似乎正在消亡。 复苏很难想象。 它根本不适合现代世界。 特别是旧约是丑陋和不道德的,我认为它的神奇事件对现代人来说太过分了。

伊斯兰狂热而原始,可能会在自己的土地上生存一段时间。 从学校到商业,几乎所有事物都可以看到伊斯兰教的精神之夜,这归因于对宗教的敌意和现代性。 从 闭幕式 上文提到:“与1980年至2000年这16328年间注册的专利数量相比,报告显示,韩国拥有370项专利,中东有XNUMX个国家(包括埃及,叙利亚和约旦)拥有XNUMX项专利,甚至还有很多这些专利是外国人注册的。”

犹太教? 唯物主义者在哲学意义上并不需要其拥护者相信显然不可能的事情,它似乎更好地适应了现代性。 它对科学,文化或商业的拥护者没有施加任何限制。

但是,克里斯滕多姆(Christendom)在演出持续期间真是个地狱。

(从重新发布 弗雷德对一切 经作者或代表的许可)
 
• 类别: 发展史, 思想 •标签: 基督教, 宗教, 西方宗教 
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  1. Monkeys throwing books out the window! Perfect description of contemporary Scholarship. Way to go, Mr. Reed.

  2. Veritatis 说:

    A writer at Unz actually made the connection between religion and its fruit, culture?!? Amazing.

    I will object to no secondary argument, it would ruin the pleasant surprise.

    • 哈哈: utu
  3. Rurik 说:

    The triumphs of European and Russian Christianity were a consequence of the blood and spirit (DNA) of the European / Russian people who embraced it (or had it imposed upon them), 不能 of the religion per se. Isaac Newton or Wolfgang Mozart would have been remarkable geniuses under most any or no religion, I posit.

    We live under a sort or Disneyland Marxism and descend ever deeper into complacent ignorance.

    是的

    The Renaissance in its entirely was an expression of Christendom.

    nope, it was in fact a explosion of the creative spirit of these unique people finally unshackled by the tenets of a dogmatic religion. As was/is science, the offspring of the Renaissance.

    a religion for the future?

    well if you pick Judaism, what about the rest of the planet? Judaism is a tribal affair based on the bloodlines and exhortations/precepts of the Old Testament. If you want to emigrate to Israel, your mother has to be of Jewish blood.

    thought-provoking article in any case

    • 回复: @Seraphim
  4. 特别是旧约是丑陋和不道德的,我怀疑它的神奇事件对现代人来说太过分了。

    The Church never insisted on strict biblical literalism. St. Augustine said that Christians should not believe things which could clearly be demonstrated to be false, as this would reflect poorly on Christianity. The Church maintained that scripture should be considered as metaphorical or symbolic, or even be said not to be clearly understood at all, when it clashed with easily observable fact. Biblical literalism is so recent a development in Christianity (and almost entirely among Protestants) that I’m tempted to call it a heresy, and seems to be centered almost entirely in the United States.

    And someone will bring up Galileo in ten, nine, eight, seven, six …

  5. Anonymous [AKA "Barraco"] 说:

    多么失败的作品。作者毫无头绪,偏见非常明显。 我想知道他如何解释黑暗时代之后欧洲使用的几乎所有科学文本都是阿拉伯文本的翻译? 或者我们在全球范围内经常在科学中使用大量阿拉伯语单词,例如代数、算法、化学等怎么样? 或者这是他可以尝试回答的另一个问题,被称为文艺复兴的时期是如何开始的?

  6. dearieme 说:

    “The Old Testament in particular is ugly and immoral and its magical events I suspect are too much for the modern mind” – Fred.

    “God, isn’t God a shit!” – Randolph Churchill.

    • 回复: @Seraphim
  7. Flavius 说:

    ” “God, isn’t God a shit!” – Randolph Churchill.”

    “Randy, big talk from a pampered Brit shitball. I’m not your problem. You are.” God

    • 回复: @Anon
    , @dearieme
  8. @Anonymous

    And the Arabic texts were overwhelmingly themselves translations from Greek texts, some of which originated in Pre-Christian times, but had been cherished and preserved by, uh, Christians.

    And the mathematics, and the sciences were largely, again from Classical roots, along the way picking up Arabic words from translations from the original Classical sources. Also, much of astrological/astronomical knowledge came from the peoples of the Persian culture sphere subjugated by the incurious Muslim barbarians from Arabia. So, no thanks to Muslims again. Later on, still more mathematical knowledge entered the world stage from India, again, after its conquest by incurious Muslim barbarians, whose scholars at best served as transmitters of work done by Hindus and Buddhists.

    And the Renaissance? Largely inspired by Classical texts, literature, and mythology. And just as the Renaissance tendencies were becoming manifest, there was an influx of a great number of texts not already in circulation in the West with the arrival of refugees to the West from Constantinople after its conquest by the 野蛮 Turks. And many of these texts, particularly those concerned with philosophy, ethics, political thought and the like, were of no interest to the Muslims (they translated next to none of them from Greek or Syriac, despite their being available to them for centuries), the Muslims thinking that they had it all sowed up with the Koran, and therefore having no need to take notice of this literature. But when it hit the Christian culture, these works were closely studied and instrumental in fueling the explosion of newly energized intellectual thought. Whoops.

    Bluster much?

    • 同意: Escher, Che Guava
    • 回复: @Escher
    , @Vires
    , @Logan
  9. Louis 说:

    Mr. Reed should read The Next Christendom by Phillip Jenkins and ponder what that is all about if not Christianity. There is much to be pessimistic about regarding Western Culture, but Christianity will survive.

  10. @Anonymous

    Many of those Arabic texts were themselves translations from the Greek.

    Arab science was indeed great, and surpassed that of Christendom for a couple of centuries. The question is, why did the Arab world fail to build on those accomplishments?

    The answer seems to be in the way it handled the conflict between faith and reason. Fred mentions the book “The Closing of the Muslim Mind”, which describes how that conflict was won by those Muslims who rejected reason. Another negative influence is that Baghdad was conquered by the Mongols and by Turkic peoples.

    In contrast, Western Christianity benefited from the insights of St Thomas Aquinas, who embraced classical Greek learning and reconciled it with Christian belief; and while we fought among ourselves, we were never overrun by powerful armies of other powers.

    Western Christendom came out on top, not because it started with some kind of moral superiority, but through accidents of history and geography.

    • 回复: @SolontoCroesus
  11. Decent article but I’m caffeinated so…

    If protestantism can be said to have set the ground for capitalism…

    Then Catholicism and Orthodoxy can be said to have set the ground for faschism and communism.

    Notice the countries effected by the respective systems.

    Tsarist Russia was collectivist and charmingly folksy with a simultaneous adoration for heroes Saints/Kings and high regard for longsuffering peasants. What better place to preach the protection of the virtue of the proleterait by wise Commisars?

    Nazism seems to come most easily to a mind shaped by the idealism and severity of Catholicism. The SS was modeled on the Jesuits if I am not mistaken.

    Between Orthodoxy, Catholicism, and Protestantism:

    Which devoloped the United States Constitution?

    I think the answer to that question as to any question about human advances is niether.

    People develop things inspite of ideology not because of it.

    The reason that the Christian influence is so great is because Christ pointed this out when he scorned the pharisees.

    His was a command to hold truth and justice in higher regard than power and honor even if the cost required the ultimate sacrifice.

    I was baptized in the Russian Orthodox Church and I value it but I do not hold it or any other earthly realization of Christs teaching to be responsible for the achievements of great spirits.

    • 回复: @Ram
    , @Patrick Harris
  12. Dwright 说:

    Good piece Fred, but it is far from over.

  13. Oldeguy 说:

    The question is not whether Christianity can survive Western Secular Modernity, but rather whether that Modernity can survive without the common ethical framework and sense of purpose ( both individual and communal ) that Christianity previously provided.
    The jury is still very much out on that one.

  14. Anon • 免责声明 说:
    @Flavius

    To be fair to him, Randolph at the time was mostly drunk, reading the Bible for the first time on a bet, and having to put up with air raids and Evelyn Waugh.

    • 回复: @Flavius
  15. jimbojones 说:

    If anything, Fred’s praise doesn’t go far enough, and his diagnosis of Christianity’s health is too harsh.

    For one thing, Christians WERE more moral than others – the European Christian, unlike the Muslims, the Africans, the Chinese, and the American Indians, successfully abolished slavery. Christendom invented and popularized the notions of Natural Law and Human Rights. What is true that Christians never were morally perfect – but that’s not saying much, especially with regard to a religion which holds Original Sin as a core doctrine.

    And regarding Christianity’s current health – well, the Europeans may be abandoning their faith, to their own vast detriment (as Hilaire Belloc wrote, Europe is the faith – and the faith is Europe); but Christianity is burgeoning in both Africa and Asia.

    Christianity has been around for 2000 years and has been spectacularly more successful than ANYTHING else. The Faith has gone through many crises in its long existence and will do just fine. The West – formerly known as Christendom – may abandon its own faith to its own detriment.

    Highly recommend Rodney Stark’s books, they offer great recent insights on the subject.

  16. Escher 说:
    @JerseyJeffersonian

    Arabic numerals actually came from India, including the concept of zero.

    • 回复: @Che Guava
  17. epnngg 说:

    弗雷德对基督教及其过去 2000 年来对世界的强大影响的评价至少是诚实的。 基督教义的影响以及他声称自己是上帝的化身之子来拯救人类脱离罪恶和死亡的黑暗,这在所有宗教的历史中确实是独一无二的。

    我们不能否认耶稣的历史真实性,我们确实必须对他的真实身份和真实身份做出一些决定。 他从未声称自己是一位伟大的老师。 他的明确声明是他来拯救人类。 只有他有能力和权威这样做。 他的一生就是对这一事实的宣告。 他来为全人类献上自己的生命,通过他的死,他声称他有能力将永生赐给所有来到他面前的人。 所以我们决定。 这个人要么是一个疯狂的自大狂,要么就是他所说的那个人。

    不,基督教并没有消亡。 虚无主义者尼采宣称“上帝已经死了。”从那时起,许多人都声称同样的事情。 但是,即使经历了可怕的迫害时期,从罗马角斗士和野兽从学院里第一批殉道的基督徒身上流下鲜血的河流,到今天在世界范围内受迫害的基督徒,仍然有残余的人不断崛起,他们确信基督是他们的真正代表。永生的上帝,所有真理的化身,所有事物都在通过他的力量不断更新。

    • 同意: Mr. Hack
  18. Religion is a tool of the ruling class, used mostly for maintaining control over lower orders. The piece above, I’m sorry to say, is utterly idiotic.

  19. bossel 说:

    Renaissance! Enlightenment!
    They were successful despite Christianity, not because of it.

    • 回复: @The Anti-Gnostic
  20. Renegade Jews founded Christianity (most Jews soon wished they had not), as a sort of heresy that got out of control

    Factually false. To be Jewish is to follow the Talmud, and the Talmud didn’t exist yet in the first century.

    If anything, it’s the Jews who are a heresy of Christianity. (The Talmud can be viewed as a reaction to, or a rejection of, Christianity.)

    • 回复: @nickels
    , @Mulegino1
    , @mcohen
  21. dearieme 说:
    @Flavius

    Randolph had the advantage of existing, an advantage denied to God.

  22. Santoculto 说:

    Thanks christies for 500 years or more of ignorance and for very slow reason-ning 世界的。

    To each beautiful curch we have a innocent who was killed by sanctified christy!!!

    It’s like autism and talent.

    It’s not exactly entire autism who may make someone very talented, but only or fundamentally the good points of autism. Indeed, some people would be even more talented without dark side of autism.

    To give credit christies as the whole responsible for the ”greatest civilization” it’s just despise a century of pure ignorance being pushed for millions of people.

    What christyanism has been for centuries it’s what neo-leftism is today. More historical memory and less poorly developed conclusion like that.

    It’s also like to despise every philosopher who taught to embrace reason rather than superstition.

  23. @Mao Cheng Ji

    Religion is a tool of the ruling class, used mostly for maintaining control over lower orders. The piece above, I’m sorry to say, is utterly idiotic.

    Your first sentence is accurate, but the second depends on the position that the “lower orders” should be free to act unrestrained. A “fact” not in evidence, although a popular social/religious tenet in recent history.

    Please do not regard my point as an argument that the “ruling class” should rule unmolested. It is my position that we evolve, socially and biologically, as a result of the tension between the two and that the world would be a most unhappy, and not evolving, place if either class were to get the upper hand unrestrained by the other.

    • 回复: @Mao Cheng Ji
  24. TomSchmidt 说:
    @Anonymous

    I wonder how he would account to the fact that almost all scientific texts used in Europe post the dark ages were translations of Arabic texts???

    Do you have any actual numbers for this assertion? Almost all might be about 90%. So, 90% of “scientific” texts (whatever that means before Francis Bacon) are translations from Arabic? Gladly assert all you Like, but do read the book Fred recommended about The Myth of the Andalusian Paradise. I’d guess most scientific texts used today were originally in English, or perhaps German. Wouldn’t you, or are we not post-dark ages (whenever those were.)?

    Tl;dr: the assertion that the Christians in Spain killed a paradise tracks back to the myth of the Black Spaniard, propaganda (look up the root of that word) from the English ruling caste so they could justify their seizure of Church lands and rally the populace against Spain, and its own interests.

  25. Modernity has no future Fred. Christendom will survive it. Thank you for this. Unexpected and refreshing.

    • 同意: Old fogey
  26. @Mao Cheng Ji

    Which is why officially atheist China is a beacon of democratic populism. Also, have you noticed how much freedom has expanded in increasingly secular Europe? You can say anything you want about any topic, right?

    • 回复: @dfordoom
  27. @another fred

    Your first sentence is accurate, but the second depends on the position that the “lower orders” should be free to act unrestrained.

    It doesn’t depend on any silly ‘positions’. What I’m saying is that attributing subjectively defined ‘achievements’ of societies to minor details of their myths (“achievements of Christendom”) is utterly idiotic. The author might want to read some materialistic account; there are popular publications, Guns, Germs, and Steel, for example.

    • 回复: @Wizard of Oz
  28. @bossel

    Secular humanism’s ultimate end from sub-replacement birthrates and antibiotic-resistant STD’s will be quite ironic.

    • 回复: @Corvinus
  29. Christianity’s chief virtue and contribution was as the socio-cultural glue that bound the Christian (and even the non-Christian and non-believing) inhabitants of Europe and the United States (and, to other, less harmonious extent in Russia and the in rest of the Orthodox-majority lands) together in the least internally barbarous, most salubriously literate, most internally peaceful and harmonious, broadly cooperative, and continually advancing societies ever.

    永远。

    Under constant hateful, so-called “secularist” attack predicated from the false gospel of temporal material envy, Christianity’s vital role as socio-cultural glue is today sorely missed, or am I the only Unz reader who has Noticed today’s division and atomization that are destroying Western Civilization from within as materialist “secularism” is monotonously inculcated in schools and 通过 Enemedia-真理报, Government, and Globali\$t corporations to indoctrinate more and more followers into the anti-intellectual, anti-civilizing mobs of materialist/Globali\$t liberalism’s useful idiots (e.g. , Black Bloc, “antifa,” By Any Means Necessary, 拉拉扎, Wall Street & Deep State bureaucrats & factotums, &c.)?

    Today even Christian churches have themselves capitulated to and adopted the false gospel of temporal material envy embedded in the various materialism-based forms of “Liberation Theology.”

    “And a hard rain’s a-gonna fall . . . .”

    • 回复: @dfordoom
  30. nickels 说:

    Civilization and beauty are results of Logos = reason, harmony, peace = Christ.

    Logos made appearances before Christ (pre-figurations of Christ in the Old T, in Greece, etc…).

    The message of the resurrection is precisely that there is a reckoning beyond the material and the pleasures of this world. This leads people to sacrifice their own wills to a greater good. That suppression of immediate will is the building block of western civilization. The adoration of God is the source of beauty in the west and its art.

    As we lose the Logos, the bloodletting and degradation of beauty will only increase.

    • 回复: @Seraphim
  31. nickels 说:
    @anonymous coward

    Yes, Christianity continues the traditions of Israel.

    The Talmud represents a rejection of that tradition and the founding of a new pagan religion.

  32. mad1 说:

    Read Joseph Atwill Christianity is the most successful false flag op of all time.

  33. Mulegino1 说:
    @anonymous coward

    100 percent correct! There are, of course, followers of the “pure Torah” still in existence (the Karaites, the Falashas, etc.) but they have virtually nothing in common with the Talmudic Jews, who as you accurately point out, are the spiritual ancestors of dead end anti-Christ rejectionists. The former are patrilineal and consider only the Pentateuch as inspired (so far as I know); the latter have only a tenuous and cosmetic regard for the Torah- their authority is the Babylonian Talmud, and, in absolute contradiction to any Semitic or Middle Eastern tradition, are matrilineal.

    Neither Christ, nor the first Christians were “Jews” in the commonly understood contemporary sense- they were Judeans, i.e., those who believed that the authentic worship of the God of Abraham was conducted at the temple in Jerusalem of Judea, not in Samaria on Mt. Gerizim. The idea that Christ or the first Christians had any spiritual or even ethnic affinity with the “Brooklyn Deli” type Jew of today is absurd in the extreme. Those people in the fur hats have about as much historical affinity with Palestine and the Levant as did King Kamehameha.

    • 回复: @utu
    , @Anonymous
  34. Anonymous • 免责声明 说:

    Muslims and their non-existent patents list? White racists, moral midgets, spiritual losers, pagan polytheists, love to rub that essential 真相 in, don’t you? Fair enough. 🙂

    But, we “losers” do have our very own most valuable “patent”;

    没有上帝,只有上帝。

    We truly understand this and live by it every single day?

    So go ahead, revel in your accomplishments. In fact, I would like to thank the non-Muslim world for all the glorious discoveries and inventions, which I too get to take advantage of.

    For me, best of both worlds. All praise is due to Allah(swt) alone!!

  35. anarchyst 说:

    1960 年代,犹太人和新教徒渗透到天主教会“梵蒂冈二世大公会议”中,基督教的“终结的开始”被封印了。
    尽管今天犹太人对耶稣基督产生了仇恨,但许多天主教仪式被遗弃,并促进了犹太人对耶稣基督被钉十字架和死亡的赦免。 。
    Abandoning the use of Latin in the Mass destroyed its “universality”. Previous to Vatican II, one could attend Mass anywhere in the Roman Catholic world and understand the meaning of the Mass.
    Prohibition of the celebration of the Tridentine Mass (except by special ecclesiastical permission) pushed many Catholics away from the new “Modern Mass” and the New Church, in general…It took a brave Cardinal Lefebvre and the Society of St. Pius X to “push back against Vatican II and re-legitimize the celebration of the pre-Vatican II Tridentine Mass and other Catholic rites.
    在梵蒂冈二世以前的时代,牧师(群众的传教士)被认为是教会的一部分,也是人民的代表。
    通过让牧师转身面对会众,牧师不再是代表,而是“演员”,从而削弱了他的地位和重要性。
    One area where the Catholic Church could improve itself involves celibacy, which is NOT Church “dogma” or doctrine. Celibacy was put in place during the middle ages in order to keep Church property from being inherited by family and relatives of priests and bishops. Celibacy was based on purely financial considerations–nothing more. It is interesting to note that Episcopal (Anglican) priests who convert to Catholicism can bring their families with them to the Church while Roman Catholic priests are denied marriage.
    教会取消对梵蒂冈二世以前原则的合法化是一个严重的错误。

  36. Anonymous • 免责声明 说:
    @epnngg

    You are passing off what is essentially hearsay, as the unquestionable truth. 🙂

    与此形成鲜明对比的是,真正的一神教的意识形态,即伊斯兰教(还有什么?),根本不依赖于传闻,而是简单的逻辑推理。 也就是说,如果你本质上是一个有神论者。

    Do you spiritual losers actually have a counter to, “There is no God, but God,” except for; but believers in Tawhid are such worldly losers, so their foundational belief must be false too, right?

    看到基督教信徒试图将三位一体视为一神教,就像印度教徒做他们的信仰一样(我是说,认真的!),这确实很有趣。 你什么时候会意识到你的精神信仰主要是印度教和希腊神话的混合物。

    如果(这是一个巨大的如果)并且当你意识到这一点时,你所幸灾乐祸的世俗成就将开始显得微不足道。

    The question is whether that will happen as you breathe your last, in which case you are basically screwed, or when you have enough time for making amends. *耸肩*

    现在,幸灾乐祸!

    • 回复: @epnngg
    , @Wizard of Oz
    , @Abdī
  37. Antiwar7 说:

    Don’t judge all of Islam so harshly. Compare the Puritans in America in the 1600’s (capital punishment for religious crimes) to the Puritans’ descendants of the 1900’s (Congregationalists and Unitarians, amongst the most liberal of mainline Protestant churches).

    Plus, in the world of Islam, the West undermined the religiously tolerant, modern, nationalists of the 1950’s by opposing them or co-opting them, and defeating them. Then America created and used transnational, conservative religious warriors to fight the Soviets, and they’ve evolved into the Taliban, Al Qaeda, and ISIS. Good going, Zbigniew Brzezinski! If we simply left the Muslim world alone, they would have evolved along their 1950’s trajectory, when a single Irish woman could bike from Europe to India, through Iran, Afghanistan and Pakistan (Dervla Murphy, https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/163921.Full_Tilt ). And if we leave them alone enough, it would settle back to that again. (Ask the young people of Iran.)

  38. @Anonymous

    没有上帝,只有上帝。

    Correction: don’t you mean “there is no God but God and his uncreated, co-eternal Koran”?

    Muslims are not pure monotheists, they believe in a ridiculous duality of Allah+Koran.

    • 回复: @Seraphim
  39. Old fogey 说:
    @anarchyst

    1960 年代,犹太人和新教徒渗透到天主教会“梵蒂冈二世大公会议”中,基督教的“终结的开始”被封印了。
    Much Catholic ritual was discarded . . .Abandoning the use of Latin in the Mass destroyed its “universality”. Previous to Vatican II, one could attend Mass anywhere in the Roman Catholic world and understand the meaning of the Mass.
    Prohibition of the celebration of the Tridentine Mass (except by special ecclesiastical permission) pushed many Catholics away from the new “Modern Mass” and the New Church, in general…It took a brave Cardinal Lefebvre and the Society of St. Pius X to “push back against Vatican II and re-legitimize the celebration of the pre-Vatican II Tridentine Mass and other Catholic rites.
    在梵蒂冈二世以前的时代,牧师(群众的传教士)被认为是教会的一部分,也是人民的代表。
    通过让牧师转身面对会众,牧师不再是代表,而是“演员”,从而削弱了他的地位和重要性。

    All well put and true. Bravo to you for reminding everyone of how the Catholic Church turned its back on its glorious history. There is no hope for our civilization until people return to their Christian roots.

  40. @The Plutonium Kid

    And someone will bring up Galileo in ten, nine, eight, seven, six …

    LOL. Actually, the posters here seem to be clever enough invoke the myth of Medieval Christian anti-science without actually naming Galileo.

  41. Flavius 说:
    @Anon

    The air raids indeed were tough and a bit of the drink certainly a reasonable aid for carrying on. The comment in question does have the ring of 3 am before the head goes down on the table. Whoever carried it from the club on Randy’s behalf did not serve him well. Waugh, it is said, could be difficult but what a gift he possessed: Scoop; Black Mischief (unpublishable today); The Loved One (they talk, but they don’t mind if you don’t listen); and all the others. Who hasn’t got a favorite?

  42. Corvinus 说:
    @The Anti-Gnostic

    “Secular humanism’s ultimate end from sub-replacement birthrates and antibiotic-resistant STD’s will be quite ironic.”

    Not quite. The blacks and browns are more than making up for whites and their apparent lack of interest in life creation. I’m sure you’ve been working hard to fill the void. I mean, your wife stays home and tends to your brood while you are off playing Ward Cleaver, right?

    Of course, your notion of secular humanism refers to those groups of people who are adherents to organized religion other than your own preferred brand of faith. In other words, unless people strictly believe in what you believe, they get dumped into this category. It’s nice and neat and clean.

    • 回复: @Anon
  43. epnngg 说:
    @Anonymous

    匿名,

    当你说一个基督徒“把基本上是道听途说的东西当作无可置疑的真理来伪装”时,你能不能更简洁一点?

    与基督教相比,伊斯兰教如何基于“简单、合乎逻辑的推理,而不是道听途说”?

    你称那些声称基督教是真理的人是“失败者”。 你对生活的理解是什么让你不是一个“失败者”?

    你能告诉我基督教是如何起源于印度教和希腊神话的吗? 你读过什么书会让你得出这个结论?

    我不相信我是在幸灾乐祸。 我只是指出我们所有人都必须对基督做出决定。 我们要么拒绝他所说的是谁,要么接受他是真理。

    你明明拒绝了他,那当然是你的选择。 我认为你既不是“傻子”也不是“失败者”,因为你相信这一点。

  44. Seraphim 说:
    @Anonymous

    And these ‘Arabic’ texts were translations from Greek! There is nothing in them that is an ‘invention’ of the Arabs. Eventually Islam managed to silence any Greek thought and science with their Allahu Akbar roars and muezzin’s bleating. Arabs burned the Library of Alexandria. That was their real attitude toward science.

  45. Anon • 免责声明 说:

    “The Old Testament in particular is ugly and immoral and its magical events I suspect are too much for the modern mind… Judaism? Materialist in the philosophical sense and not requiring its adherents to believe things apparently impossible, it would seem better adapted to modernity. It imposes no restrictions on its adherents in science, culture, or commerce.”

    Old Testament is the real thing. It has everything. Mythology, history, poetry, laws, philosophy, etc.
    New Testament is great too, but it only pursues a single idea. Old Testament has more contradictions, therefore it is more interesting. In a way, New Testament tried to resolve those contradictions. But crisis is always more interesting than resolution.

    The Old Testament doesn’t have a lot of magical events once the human realm is well-established. It is in the Genesis where most of the magical stuff is, but this makes sense since it’s about pre-history. This is true of any civilization. Their ‘remembrance’ of the dawn is the most magical and mythical. But as things become more established, there is less of that magical stuff. So, the Dark Ages of Greek ‘history’ is filled with stories of gods and mythic heroes. But later Greek history is more like real history.
    The later parts of the Old Testament become more like histories and chronicles than mythology. Also, the magical parts of Genesis have great poetic power and can be read as such instead of literally as magic.

    As for the Old Testament being ‘ugly’, life is ugly. People are ugly. History is ugly. Religion isn’t a fantasy or fairytale. Religion must grapple with the ugliness of life.
    And why is it ‘immoral’? Because of God’s laws about stoning people for a bunch of crimes? But is the heaven-hell theory of Christianity less cruel? In some ways, Christian cosmology is more cruel. If you get stoned to death for a sin, it’s gonna be horrible, but when you’re dead, the suffering is over. You’re dead and that’s that. In contrast, even though Christianity urges compassion and love in THIS WORLD, it says vengeance is God’s. And if God is angry with you, you will burn in hell forever. Now, what is more cruel? Getting stoned to death or being burned forever? I’ll take the stones.

    Some might say the Old Testament God is cruel in the way He killed people with floods and fires and such. But there were natural disasters that wiped out lots of people. So, people back then had to ask why such things happened. And they figured God was punishing people for doing bad stuff, like humping each other in the ass. I wouldn’t mind if God existed and hurled some fireballs at the San Fran homo parade.

    Anyway, floods happen. Earthquakes happen. Locusts happen. And people back then had to come up with some kind of answer.

    The possibilities were:

    1. God doesn’t make the bad things happen. They just happen, and God does nothing to stop them. But then, the problem with this argument is, ‘why did God create a universe in which bad stuff happens?’ Or, ‘If God can intervene and stop the bad stuff, why doesn’t he?’

    2. God wants to stop bad things from happening but He hasn’t the power to do so. He feels sorry for humanity, wants to help, and but can’t. Okay, now we have a nice god, but he’s not a very powerful god. What good is a god who is not powerful enough to control the world?

    3. God makes bad things happen because he loves to feeeel the power like Mr. T in ROCKY III. And he pities the fool who dare bitch and complain. Okay, now we have a powerful badass god, but he’s nihilistic and just loves to show off his power for the hell of it. He’s like some rapping negro punk thug of the universe.

    4. God is powerful and good. He wants good stuff for us, but we sin so much and disappoint Him big time. And so, as punishment, He whups our butt once in awhile because we seem to lose sight of what really matters when things get good. It’s like the Jews in TEN COMMANDMENTS while Moses was at Sinai getting the tablets. They had food and wine and began to boogie oogie.

    Out of the four possibilities, the fourth sounds most moral though not exactly perfect because God’s punishment sometime makes good sense — when He whupped the buggers of Sodom and Gomorrah — but other times seems a bit excessive.
    Only #4 shows God to be all-powerful and good. And it’s the only way to morally explain natural and historical phenomena of mayhem and stuff.

    As for the stuff about wiping out the entire enemy tribes when the Jews are seeking to establish their homeland, that is nasty business. But I suspect that kind of military butchery was common among ancient tribes. Also, are we any better? Mao killed millions. Stalin killed millions. Truman nukes entire cities. British blockade starved many Germans in WWI. Sanctions in Iraq killed 100,000s. Japanese went nuts in Nanking. America was built by wiping out Indians.

    • 回复: @Dube
    , @Wizard of Oz
  46. Seraphim 说:
    @anonymous coward

    其实是:
    lā ʾilāha ʾillā-llāh, muḥammadur-rasūlu-llāh
    There is no god but God. Muhammad is the messenger of God

    ‘Muslims’ actually worship Muhammad. The Koran is just a collection of his ravings (and even that is not so sure). Muslims don’t want to impose the belief in the ‘unity of God’ (in which actually everybody else was believing) but to ‘submit’ (this is the meaning of Islam) the world to the rants of Muhammad.

    • 回复: @anonymous coward
  47. Anon • 免责声明 说:
    @Antiwar7

    “Don’t judge all of Islam so harshly.”

    Byzantines were Christians, but their civilization was stagnant and just got weaker and weaker.. until it fell to the Turks and Muslims.

    I think, in a way, we have to give the barbarians of Europe some credit for the rise of the West. This may sound counter-intuitive since barbarians sacked Rome. But sometimes, a civilization grows decadent and degenerate. It has to be destroyed like a dead tree in order for a new tree to grow.

    So, in a way, the great paradox is the Western Roman Empire was destroyed but paved the way for something great whereas Eastern Roman Empire survived but maintained a mummified civilization for too long. West got rid of dead tree and grew a new tree. The East kept with its aging tree that got bigger but weaker and then dead… until the Turks finally came along and kicked it down.

    So, the barbarians must be given their due. But thankfully, the barbarians were white folks with genetic traits capable of amazing things. They were high-IQ barbarians. Like the Exterminators in ZARDOZ.

    Over time, barbarianism mixed with spiritualism. Thus, Europe had both warrior virility and saintly virtue-ness. It combined the balls with the heart. And then, with rediscovery of Classical knowledge, there was also the brain. So, the formula was the balls + heart + brains.
    In a way, the sense of ‘rediscovery’ made things more exciting. Suppose you have a book collection and it’s always there and you get tired of it cuz it’s always there. You might not much care to read. But suppose the books are lost, and you feel you lost something so precious. But then, suppose you rediscover it. Now it’s like a miracle and you’re excited to read the books.

    In a way, the rise of America was a form of neo-barbarianism. Even though European civilizations were great, they were rigidly stratified, and the energies of many people were repressed. In order for Western Europe to become civilized, they had to increasingly put away barbarian things. This made for more order but it also led to stifling of creative energies.
    The danger of rise of civilization was the suppression of the creative barbarian spirit of adventure and freedom. For Europe to develop into orderly societies, people had to be turned into serfs. In a way, being a serf was worse than being a slave of a barbarian lord. It was certainly less fun. If you were a slave of a barbarian lord who was pillaging some place and if you saved your lord in a battle, he might free you and embrace you as a fellow warrior, and then, you are riding alongside your master and playing barbarian too. But if you were a serf of a landed aristocrat, you were just stuck to your plot and planting turnips all year around.
    In the US, Europeans who had bowed down to masters, lords, and other such highfalutin types could finally be free. Even though whites fought the savage Indians, they went half-barbarian as free farmers, pioneers, adventurers, mountain men, cowboys, ranchers, and etc. In Europe, it was mostly the nobility that had horses and guns. In America, even regular folks could have guns and ride horses like wild Indians and act semi-barbarian. So, the repressed creative barbarian energies were allowed to run free in the US in Hemingway-ish manner, and that made America. It’s like in LAST OF MOHICANS, which is almost like the telling of Romans vs Germanics.

    America was founded by landed aristocrats like Jefferson and Washington and such. But many who fought to gain independence were regular folks like in the Al Pacino movie.

    Another great achievement of the barbarians was that they ended the Roman project of proto-globalism that was bringing all these Arabs and Africans to Rome. Romans became like current Europe, and they let in all these non-whites to do stuff that Romans were too lazy to do themselves. Romans got decadent like in Fellini Satyricon.

    Indeed, what the EU needs is a barbarian revolt. The elites are rotten to the core. Their system is decadent. Their religion is worship of men who indulge in fecal penetration. And their holy icon is some guy who removed his balls and penis to get fake vagina. And their idea of evolutionary progress is to have as many white wombs be colonized by Negro seed.
    We need a barbarian revolt when the system becomes too rotten.

    • 回复: @dearieme
    , @jilles dykstra
    , @Alden
  48. Seraphim 说:
    @Antiwar7

    Right, there were the misguided Anglo-Americans who encouraged the ‘revival’ of a withering Islam as a spearhead against Russia and China, reviving their policies of ‘containing’ Russia which led to WWI. The Muslim Brotherhood was a creation of the British Intelligence Service specially designed to reverse the effects of the salutary dismantling of the Ottoman Empire (the Caliphate).

  49. Seraphim 说:
    @Rurik

    This tribute to the claptrap of the basically judaizing anti-Church idolaters of the ‘White DNA cum IQ superiority’, puts the cart before the horses. The triumphs of European Christianity are a consequence of the ‘marriage’ of the multi-millenary Ancient civilizations (unified by the Hellenistic-Roman empire) with the Church which brought into it the feral barbarian Widukinds, Beowulfs and Rurikids from the fringes of Europe, slowly domesticating and educating them (admittedly the greatest success was with the Rurikids). All science and culture of ‘White Europe’ irradiated from the Schools and Universities created and patroned by the Church. Ditto for the Renaissance. The Widukinds took their revenge in the Reformation utopianism which waged a long war against the Church and Christian culture and civilization. The drab vision of the anti-human dead Universe of the iconoclasts Galileo, Bacon, Newton, Locke and the deadly tyranny of the materialistic science which they help to create (and whose most egregious successes consist in devising more and more destructive weapons) is the direct result of that ‘Widukind’ revolt against the Church.

    • 回复: @jilles dykstra
    , @Anon
  50. AP 说:
    @Mao Cheng Ji

    I didn’t realize you were an undergraduate who figured it all out.

    • 回复: @Wizard of Oz
    , @Anon
    , @Anonymous
  51. @Seraphim

    The idea that the Koran is “co-eternal and uncreated” is official Muslim doctrine, and you’ll get your head chopped if you disagree.

    How these people have the gall to rant about “pure monotheism” is beyond me.

    • 回复: @Seraphim
  52. Stogumber 说:

    The Jews who stepped out of Judaism and invented Christianity didn’t do this as a joke. They had reasons to feel unwell in the Jewish atmosphere of “materialism, identity and ritual” which Fred Reed deems so appropriate to the modern world.
    And they felt particularly unwell in the atmosphere of phariseeism – an eternal religion which Reed hasn’t taken into account.
    If we understand the reasons why Christianity was founded, we understand why it is needed now as well as always.

    • 回复: @Seraphim
  53. utu 说:
    @Mulegino1

    The idea that Christ or the first Christians had any spiritual or even ethnic affinity with the “Brooklyn Deli” type Jew of today is absurd in the extreme. Those people in the fur hats have about as much historical affinity with Palestine and the Levant as did King Kamehameha.

    优点。

  54. @The Plutonium Kid

    “The church never insisted on strict biblical liberalism”

    Or as Bishop Desmond Tutu put it: “Whatever is not in the spirit of Christ, I reject it. I reject it absolutely.”

    • 回复: @attilathehen
  55. Dube 说:
    @Anon

    Possibility #5: God takes the penalty for the evil. Isn’t that the straight story?

  56. wayfarer 说:

    It’s ironic how scientific knowledge ( https://goo.gl/8rhy57 ) has evolved exponentially over the past several millennium, whereas religious knowledge ( Christianity, Islam, and Judaism ) has remained absolutely static within its 2000 to 3000 year old texts.

    What initially opened my mind to alternative truths, were various “close encounters of the third kind,” including a vis-a-vis experience with an extremely dangerous alien being. I’ve also stumbled upon these transcripts ( https://goo.gl/DdEVNj ), which have helped greatly to broaden my spiritual perspective of creation.

    • 回复: @Philip Owen
    , @Seraphim
  57. @Anonymous

    After your sound first sentence you descend into nonsense. The only logic of theism is that theism is fundamentally illogical and rationally impossible because an omnipotent Creator deity that supposedly cares for his creation and creatures but doesn’t intervene to make sure they understand Him and his will (if any) correctly and leaves billions of Buddhists and Hindus totally uninstructed about Him is an impossibility.

  58. utu 说:
    @Antiwar7

    Then America created and used transnational, conservative religious warriors to fight the Soviets, and they’ve evolved into the Taliban, Al Qaeda, and ISIS. Good going, Zbigniew Brzezinski!

    One may wonder who was really behind the overthrowing of the Shah regime in Iran. Iran was trying to do everything right by being a super friend of America and Israel. Still it did not protect them from the regime change. So what did them in? Was it because they were too successful in economic development and becoming a modern secular state? So who really unleashed the ayatollahs on them? The same people who tried to unleash Muslim Brotherhood on Nasser?

    • 回复: @jilles dykstra
  59. @Mao Cheng Ji

    You do sound a bit undergraduate in your confident espousal of oversimplification. So what if the developments of modern civilisation could only occur in Eurasia and not Africa, Australasia or the Americas for environmental reasons suggested by Jared Diamond? That by no means precludes one culture, maybe strongly associated with a particular religion, being an important, if not essential, cause or condition of the rise of modern civilisation via Rennaissance, Reformation, Scientific, Agricultural and Industrial Revolutions and the Enlightenment(s). Cf. also Eric Jones “The European Miracle”.

    • 回复: @Mao Cheng Ji
  60. @Anon

    You commit the fatal fallacy of allowing your deity to get annoyed with us and then behave in a way which we have long objected to as unjust and wrong in principal.

    • 回复: @Anonymous
  61. It’s interesting that you equate less Christian with irreligious.

    I was raised Catholic in the Netherlands, which is a historically Protestant nation with a large Catholic minority, although now there are more Catholics than Protestants (60/40 Calvinist/Catholic in 1950, 10/20 Calvinist Catholic 2010). I, along with many others, left Christianity because it is completely illogical, relativist, and not even the people preaching it believe that it is the religion of God, which is how they change things around to let gays marry etc.

    I became Muslim because Islam is logical, it’s doctrines and theology stand up to scrutiny without dependence on blind faith, even things that you’d think 需要 faith like Isra and Miraj have scientific explanations like Theory of Relativity. Islam doesn’t contradict science, human evolution is not a matter for debate among Muslims since it is more or less described in the Qur’an, it has a strong moral code, a developed and objective ethical system land once you actually research Islam you’ll see that it’s been unfairly maligned because it’s simplistic truths invite you to timeless truth and that scares the powers that be. They rely on public Islamophobia to support wars of conquest and the continued supine behavior thy display to toward Israel.

    There’s no wonder why Christianity is moribun in the west and would be quickly dying worldwide if it weren’t African rice Christians, and why Islam is growing everywhere, Islamic youth are more religious than their parents, and millions of secular/Christian westerners 70% women, 55% under 27) have become Muslim.

    The religious future of the west, and everywhere outside of the Orient and the Hindu areas of India is Islam.

  62. ” This is unfortunate, and stupid, since Christianity was the heart and soul of as yet the greatest civilization the world has seen. ”

    This sentence is the point to stop reading.
    For some 1600 years christianity prevented all progress.

    Who exactly burned the Alexandria library is still in dispute, but there is no dispute on that the pope in 1600 burned Giordano Bruno alive, because he had other ideas than the church, at about the same time Calvin in Geneva burned Servetius also to death, alive, on green wood, then he suffered longer.

    The crime of Servetius, the man who discovered the blood circulation, was that the compromise reached on Cyprus in the 4th or so century about the holy trinity he saw as nonsense;

    Some 400 years BCE Greeks calculated the circumference of the earth at 39.000 km, it is some 40.000.
    Yet the crew of Columbus in 1500 or so were afraid to fall off the world.

    Even around 1860 a pope forbade all philosophic thinking not controlled by the church.
    Even today the pope forbids condoms, thereby spreading aids.

    Science stood still for some 1600 years, Galileo is seen as the first experimenter in christian times.

    I do not comment on the christian stupidity of ‘go and multiply’, heathen peoples were capable of restricting population to sustainable numbers.
    Nor am I commenting on excuses for trans Atlantic slave trade.

  63. @utu

    Even Stalin was unable to repress religion, the shah also failed.
    So this power overthrew him.

    • 回复: @utu
    , @Pachyderm Pachyderma
  64. @Seraphim

    A very sobering book about the ‘triumphs’ of christianity is
    Felipe Fernández-Armesto,《文明》,伦敦,2000

    Just the direction of the turning of the earth, the unique North Sea, and the grass highway from Mongolia to the Flemish coast.

  65. @Veranon

    ⦁ Thorkild Schioler,“罗马和伊斯兰提水轮”,欧登塞大学出版社 1973

  66. Seraphim 说:
    @anonymous coward

    Oh, yes, we know that. The real problem is with those pseudo-Christians who coddle the head choppers, foisting them and their demented ‘faith’ on us, forbidding us to expose them for what they really are.

  67. Anonymous • 免责声明 说:
    @Wizard of Oz

    I fail to understand this post. Is God or your interlocutor behaving in a way you to which you object? And how does either case constitute a fallacy?

    RB

    • 回复: @Wizard of Oz
  68. @The Plutonium Kid

    Quite right and well said. Literalism and, more importantly, is existence as a straw man that can be easily (and publicly) mocked by those that hate Christianity in the first place and who have been working assiduously towards its demise, has much (if not everything) to do with the fading away of Christian presence and influence within our western cultures.

    The other great destroyer (apart from the money-power’s covert war against Christianity) is the failure of the leadership of Christian Churches to stand up for Christian principles. The Catholic Church was taken over by Freemasons in 1958 and has been careering towards its own spiritual death (and a merging with globalist Luciferians) ever since.

    Swedenborg* wrote in the 1700’s that all Churches (spiritual civilisations) die in the end as they become replaced by their own inversion. It happened with the Adamic God-filled religion of our earliest ancestors who knew no separation from the Creator and accepted that all good was from ‘Him’. it happened to the benign religion of the original Hebrews and to other civilisations as well.
    This is what the Book of “Revelations/The Apocalypse” is all about. Christian scripture predicted its own demise 2000 years ago and told us clearly that a new and superior spirituality [the presence of the spirit of Christ in men and women, like to the Edenic religion] will rise from the ashes of Christian culture.

    *Read “Divine Providence” if interested.

    • 回复: @Seraphim
  69. Anon • 免责声明 说:
    @The White Muslim Traditionalist

    Why is it that Talha is the only, well, 塔尔哈 on this forum?

  70. Anon • 免责声明 说:
    @Corvinus

    Why are you obsessed with and fixated on race?

    • 回复: @Corvinus
  71. Seraphim 说:
    @Stogumber

    To really understand the reasons why Christianity was founded and is permanently needed, we have to discard the false idea that the ‘Jews invented Christianity’ and stick to the traditional view that Jesus Christ, who came on Earth for our salvation, founded the Church, the Body of Christ, the Temple of the Holy Spirit. “Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus”.

  72. @epnngg

    “We cannot deny the historicity of Jesus”. Maybe, but we can certainly doubt just about everything about him that Christians have been encouraged to believe based on what was filtered through from 1st century (but not contemporaneous) texts that the Roman church treated as canonical. I saw an interesting dico recently that seemed to make quite a good case for
    1. 耶稣是你的艾赛尼派相关或受启发的标准改革或革命犹太传教士,他在他的表弟施洗约翰被杀时接过缰绳;
    2. Jesus and disciples needed financial support and got it from the wife of Herod’s chief minister;
    3. Herod who had only married in to the Judaean royal family was pretty happy with Jesus’s anti-establushment movement as he would hsve been happy to replace Caiaphas and control the Temple
    4. Herod had some sort of deal with Sejanus when he seemed to be able to speak for Tiberius, and Pilate also was Sejanus’s man. Herod was to keep the peace in Palestine for Sejanus when S took over from Tiberius, as emperor or as agent;
    5. 西雅努斯在公元 31 年末的垮台改变了一切,这意味着希律和彼拉多都不会保护耶稣;
    6. The timing in the gospels doesn’t make sense. The events of the last week were really spread over months starting with the 31 AD festival of Tabernacles when the palm fronds would have traditionally been available and Jesus’s entry to Hosannas makes some sense. Initially he can turn over a money changer’s table in the Temple without being arrested but eventually the news of Sejanus’s fall undoes him and he can be crucified to please the local establishment. As to the crowds that had welcomed him turning into those who chose Barabas to be spared? At least it suggests a time frame of months rather than days.

    • 回复: @Seraphim
    , @jilles dykstra
  73. Anon • 免责声明 说:

    里德先生

    Thank you for this intelligent and respectful article. I disagree with you on certain points, of course, but when I state that I am a Christian it will be perfectly obvious what those points are and the possible discussion arising from them, so there is no need to go into them. I also applaud your choice of the 英仙座, which I think you also used in a previous article. This statue has always made me somewhat uneasy, as, since the headless body of the Gorgon is present, indicating that this is in fact the decapitation scene: where is the mirror? Is this a sly joke on the fact that this is in fact a statue (metal is close enough to stone)? In any case it is a terrifying image, in the best of ways.

    I wonder, though: did interpretations similar to Jack London’s* have anything to do with the choice?

    RSDB

    *Yes, I got it from wikipedia. So sue me.

  74. @Wizard of Oz

    That by no means precludes one culture, maybe strongly associated with a particular religion, being an important, if not essential, cause or condition of the rise of modern civilisation via Rennaissance, Reformation, Scientific, Agricultural and Industrial Revolutions and the Enlightenment(s).

    No. Economics is the basis. Ideology, culture, law, politics – superstructure built upon it. This is very basic stuff.

    And by the way, religious doctrines and practices change as well, and take very different, sometimes the opposite forms, from communistic communes to the Inquisition to the Lord’s Resistance Army – in accordance with variety of material conditions.

    • 回复: @Wizard of Oz
  75. Seraphim 说:
    @The White Muslim Traditionalist

    Does not the patently not true silly affirmation that the Koran descended from heavens depend on blind faith? Islamic ‘logic’ is the logic of the simple minded incapable of reasoning due to low IQ and incapacity for sustained mental efforts. It is the territory of the most blind faith you can see.

  76. Anonymous [AKA "doubter"] 说:

    This summary is hard to take. Breathtaking in its simplicity and guilty of misrepresentation both by ommission and commission.

    For instance, the statement that Islam “…quickly fell into intellectual sloth and has since produced almost nothing other than splendid carpets and some lovely mosques” is stunning in its ignorance. The same can be said of the statement that mathematics, etc. are basically “Christian” and European. Forget the persecution of those who did not espouse the Christian view of creation, such as Copernicus (who reproduced models well known to, for instance, Inca and Middle Eastern scientists for centuries previously). Forget that the great learning centre in Toledo under the Ummayad Caliphate, for instance, preserved and transmitted Greek, Persian and Islamic learning to Europe in the late Middle Ages.

    Yes, Christianity does have a great cultural heritage, just as it has a history of blood and intolerance. But the greatest on Earth? Buddhism, Confusianism, Taoism and even Zoroastrianism certainly give Christian culture and values a run for that honour.

    Lastly, it is somewhat ironic to me that this piece is illustrated with a copy of a Greek statue of a pre-Christian hero.

  77. mcohen 说:
    @anonymous coward

    you come to unz,post some crap,take a crap,causes others to wisely nod like crap.whats the point……bored,lonely,toothache,back problems,to much curry.

    posted the link for you not to read.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talmud

    i am working on the 14 principles that should be the foundation of an islamic state.care to contribute.so far i have completed principle number1

    1.the first principle for the basis for and islamic state must be the full acceptance of people of all relegions and cultures.it must have the ability to provide a safe space for all its inhabitants.survival must come first.both moslems and non moslems who want to live in an islamic state must accept this first principle.before anything else.

    2.the islamic state must first be a state in the mind before in the physical.those like minded people who wish to live in an islamic state must come together and agree to accept islam as the guiding principal governing daily life.the life based on sharia law.

    3.then only can the physical boundaries be chosen.they must be chosen in the path of peace and mutual consent.conflict must be rejected

    4…………

    • 回复: @anonymous coward
  78. Anonymous [AKA "John Robbart"] 说: • 您的网站

    I am not a Christian either, though my ancestors were. Although I agree with some of what you have to say about Christianity you seem to ignore the centuries before the renaissance (and even during it) when the Church was quite dogmatic about it’s fantastic stories etc.

    Even Kepler calculated the age of the earth to be rough 6,000 years old. Yes all these amazing intellects for several centuries after the Renaissance believed in Christianity and even in the literal word of the bible.

    But it seems to me it was the Greek and their Roman followers (Lucretius, many stoics etc.) that provided the source of the enlightenment not the Church which stood in active opposition.

    You mention this tradition in your article but only in passing. Personally I can see nothing but progress in the fading out of the belief in the supernatural.

    Very glad you’ve chosen the path you have,

    约翰

  79. dearieme 说:
    @Anon

    “Byzantines were Christians, but their civilization was stagnant and just got weaker and weaker.. until it fell to the Turks”

    Byzantium waxed and waned. It seems to have been the invasion by the western “Latin” crusaders that finally weakened it beyond recovery.

  80. @anarchyst

    祭司专制的使徒起源 can correct your false assertion. The first identifiable Papal legislation dealing with continence/celibacy was promulgated by Pope Siricius, 384 A.D. and which legislation was dedicated to recalling his priests to the ancient praxis of continence/celibacy and was not novel legislation imposing a new discipline.

    Even the first new priests in the church, although married, had to be continent.

    The Catholic Church had good (traditional) reasons for adopting continence/chastity and it had aught to do with money or property. The practice was directly tied to the Old Testament Aaronic priesthood whose men had to be celibate during the time they served in the Temple – even though they were married.

    The idea – easily sloughed-off in this epoch of pornography and lust – was that to be completely committed to the ministry of sacrifice in the Temple meant one had to be liberated from any attachment to coitus or desire of same and

  81. mcohen 说:
    @The White Muslim Traditionalist

    wmt says

    “I became Muslim because Islam is logical, it’s doctrines and theology stand up to scrutiny without dependence on blind faith”

    believing in G-d requires blind faith.
    believing that your relegion is better than another relegion is fatal
    after mohammed islam changed and split and non moslems were viewed as inferior.that thought process is fatal.
    there is no connection between G-d and relegion.the connection is between G-d and man.as that was the case before islam.before the abrahamic relegions appeared.spirituality does not require a relegion ,it only requires that you believe.

    the laws of nature are the only true laws.

  82. @James N. Kennett

    Jason Reza Jorjani demonstrates (with compelling logic) that Greek philosophy reformed under influence of the Persians/Zoroaster

    And the last books of the Hebrew Old Testament celebrate Cyrus, the Zoroastrian, the only verifiably historic figure in the entire OT.

    • 回复: @Seraphim
    , @geokat62
  83. “I became Muslim because Islam is logical, it’s doctrines and theology stand up to scrutiny without dependence on blind faith, even things that you’d think need faith like Isra and Miraj have scientific explanations like Theory of Relativity. Islam doesn’t contradict science, human evolution is not a matter for debate among Muslims since it is more or less described in the Qur’an, it has a strong moral code, a developed and objective ethical system”

    神圣的社区和新兴的多极景观 by Blake Archer Williams

    “When people with Western sensibilities talk about the system of governance in Iran, two closely-related category errors are invariably present in the discourse. The first is that they fail to distinguish between Covenantal or Dispensational polities and 常规 ones; and this is because, secondly, they fail to distinguish between communities and societies, or, more specifically, between sacred communities and civil societies. Covenantal or Dispensational polities yield sacred communities, whereas Conventional polities yield civil societies; or, to put it slightly differently: sacred communities are the product of a communal consensus on a given Covenant (and on the Dispensation which ensues from that Covenant), whereas civil societies are the product of a Conventional communal consensus.”

    or — are we to work out our salvation — the growth and health of our souls and character — as autonomous individuals, or in a supportive community?

    Walter McDougall traces the descent of American civil religion from its Puritan base (already flawed) to its current, hubristic and murderous manifestation.

  84. Dr. X 说:

    特别是旧约是丑陋和不道德的,我怀疑它的神奇事件对现代人来说太过分了。

    The Old Testament isn’t about Christianity, it’s about Judaism. It’s in the Christian Bible to demonstrate that Christianity is fundamentally a rejection of the “ugly and immoral” ways of the Jews.

    In Christianity, “God is love.” In Judaism, God is death — for the enemies of the Chosen Ones. The Old Testament is full of nothing but stories of God killing the enemies of the Jews, or empowering the Jews to kill their enemies themselves. Passover is the celebration of God murdering Egyptian babies but sparing Jewish ones. Exodus is about God murdering the Egyptian army by drowning them. God empowers the Jews to kill the Canaanites and steal their land as long as Moses keeps his arms up. Purim is the Jewish holiday celebrating the treachery of Esther and Mordecai, who conspire to murder Haman and his sons and then get the blessing of the Persian king to murder 75,000 enemies of the Jews — including women and children.

    The Old Testament ends when the Jews conspire to have Jesus executed for the blasphemy of saying that the Jews are not the Chosen People, and that salvation is possible for Gentiles as well.

    If Judaism is the “religion of the future,” Christianity is needed now more than ever.

  85. Corvinus 说:
    @Anon

    “Why are you obsessed with and fixated on race?”

    Ask yourself that question first about how you view blacks and Jews and you will find the answer really quick. Or, just read Mr. Sailer’s blog. He can easily provide you with the response.

  86. Seraphim 说:
    @Wizard of Oz

    So, you suck up to frauds like Simcha Jacobovici and James Tabor? I would have thought that Wizards (especially from Oz) are endowed with more common sense. SBS feeds them regularly that crap every Christmas and Easter so they should have smelled it before you turned on your TV.

    • 回复: @Wizard of Oz
  87. @jimbojones

    “一方面,基督徒比其他人更有道德——欧洲基督徒与穆斯林、非洲人、中国人和美洲印第安人不同,成功地废除了奴隶制。 基督教世界发明并普及了自然法和人权的概念。 基督徒在道德上从来都不是完美的,这是真的——但这并不能说明什么,尤其是对于一个以原罪为核心教义的宗教而言。”

    所以你是说基督教是软弱的和多愁善感的?

    我从小就信奉天主教,这就是我的观点。

    读你的书,然后读我的书,新约诽谤我们的创造者和某种需要帮助、可爱的鸽子,感觉之主的性格。 我的书,其作者和历史并没有笼罩在神秘之中(我们知道我们的 Nabi 和 Sahaba 生活中最平凡的事实)展示了上帝的真实面貌,一个全能的创造之王。 我的上帝创造了我,而不是荒谬的基督教观念,即人类是上帝的宇宙爱好者,因为他是国王,国王需要臣民。 我的上帝不给你努力或爱你 现有,他爱那些事奉他的人。

    • 同意: Abdī
    • 不同意: German_reader
  88. John Brown 说:
    @jilles dykstra

    Thought the same but read the whole article. I wouldn’t have published nothing from an ignorant 16 yo that writes “the greatest civilization the world has seen” even if s/he was referring to Chinese civilization. The writer is probably more than 16 but I ‘m not sure if he’s wiser. In fact I am sure he doesn’t know what what he is talking about.

  89. KenH 说:
    @The White Muslim Traditionalist

    哎呀,你说的好像伊斯兰教与科学紧密相连,而穆斯林是这些坚忍的、有道德的、深思熟虑的人,拥有敏锐、好奇的智力。 几乎想让我去当地的清真寺当场皈依。

    But if Islam is all about peace, beauty, science and pragmatism then why are Muslim enclaves in Europe essentially ghettos and “no-go” zones teeming with sloth, religious extremism and violent crime? And why are most majority Muslim nations riven by tribal and ethnic hatreds and rivalries and teetering on civil war even before U.S. foreign policy destabilized the Middle East?

    • 回复: @Abdī
    , @Abdī
  90. Seraphim 说:
    @SolontoCroesus

    The buffoon makes a real disaster from Zoroaster.

    • 回复: @SolontoCroesus
  91. @Wizard of Oz

    An intriguing theory about Jesus is that he indeed never existed, was invented by Paulus as secret agent for the Roman emperor, in order to destroy judaism.

    迈克尔·拜金特(Michael Baigent),理查德·利(Richard Leigh),《耶稣基督的雕像》,克里斯蒂安姆(Christentum)逝世,《死海古卷》,1991年,2005年,贝尔吉施·格拉德巴赫(Bergisch Gladbach)

    • 回复: @Seraphim
  92. @The White Muslim Traditionalist

    Ik ben inderdaad van mening dat de Islam niet veel minder erg is dan het katholicisme.
    I indeed am of the opinion that Islam is not much worse than catholicism.
    Though I must add, until 1500 Islam did not prevent science, and scientific thought.
    And indeed, until 1960 or so catholics were second rate citizens in the Netherlands.
    Since then almost all Dutch liberated themselves from oppressive religious leaders, discrimination ended.
    Thos that need such people now can find refuge in Islam, alas.

  93. Seraphim 说:
    @nickels

    It was so simply and beautifully said from the beginning by the one who saw Him:

    In the beginning was the Word (the Logos), and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. 6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. 8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. 9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. 15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me. 16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace. 17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. 18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him” (John 1:1-18).

    But indeed, we are too busy reading what luminaries like James Tabor or fraudsters like Simcha Jacobovici have to say about the Gospels to have time to read the Gospels.

    • 回复: @Philip Owen
  94. My Christian faith gives me some comfort that when, in 2030, a giant meteor crashes into Earth and wipes out humanity, it will be the Almighty’s due correction of Western Europe’s final submission to Islam and the putting to an end of the Chelsea Clinton Presidency after two brief but horrendous years that settled upon all of mankind like a pestilence.

    http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/giant-meteor-set-wipe-out-10320379

  95. @Anon

    ” So, in a way, the great paradox is the Western Roman Empire was destroyed but paved the way for something great ”
    I fear that the great police and slavery state Western Roman Empire was destroyed by what itself had created, christianity.
    This christianity then stopped all progress until around 1600 Galileo looked through a Dutch made telescope, and saw the moons of Jupiter.
    The end of church science.
    And of course, much later, ‘tactical’ hydrogen bombs.

  96. @mcohen

    Belief in God only requires blind faith if your God is illogical, like the triune Christian God or Zeus. There is a rational argument for a single, all powerful God, the one I call Allah subhana wa ta’ala and you call HaShem.

    • 巨魔: utu
  97. @Seraphim

    If the content was nonsensical you’d have a point, but the content of the Holy Qur’an is what sets it apart. I invite you to sit and read it, it’s a logical book that gives reasonable and logical arguments and explanations for everything that it asks you to believe and to do. Further evidence of it’s divinity comes from the facts contained in the text that would’ve been unknown to an illiterate, orphaned 40 year old Meccan without being told so by God. Human evolution, the Theory of Relativity, the Big Bang, the ever expanding universe. All of these things are in the Qur’an.

    • 回复: @Zeta
    , @marylou
  98. @Anon

    Are you talking about Talh`a the Arabic word meaning “big tree” or Talha ibn Obaidullah, the companion of the Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him?

  99. Seraphim 说:
    @ThereisaGod

    The Catholic Church was infiltrated by Freemasons long before 1958. The plan for the infiltration was known since 1859 by a document of the Alta Vendita (the supreme lodge of the Carbonari – Freemasons) and published in a classic of anti-masonic literature:
    Jacques Crétineau-Joly, “L’ Église Romaine en face de la Révolution”, 1859

    • 回复: @Veritatis
  100. @Anonymous

    I accept that one may quibble about the word fallacy. But I was giving a very truncated version of the logical argument that I have put or heard put to priests and prelates and nevet heard answered with even a shred of plausibility.

    The Abrahamic Creator god is omniscient, eternal, omnipotent and cares for and about and talks to humans. Why then did he not tell billions of Buddhists, Hindus and Animists what the right theological and moral doctrines are? Why did he allow Ancient Hebrews, Jesus followers, followers of the violent pederast, Cathars, Albigensians, Hussites, Lutherans, Calvinists, Zwinglians, Anglicans etc to wallow in the uncertainty created by their many incompatibilities? The Abrahamic God is logically impossible.

    • 回复: @anonymous coward
  101. @Mao Cheng Ji

    Isn’t that such a primitive version of Marxism, so crude that Marx, who was a learned man, would regarded it as a vast oversimplification?

    Your last paragraph you would surely want tlo rethink. It is trite to say that religious doctrines and practices change but impossible to attribute even a great majority of the variations to the material environment or economics. Some of them are demonstrably the result of new knowledge or some possibly distorted version of new knowledge. Some were simply aesthetic or otherwise psychologically based adheremce to myth and ritual and satisfying story telling or incantation. Are the elaborations of Hindu myth responses to the environment? Are the differences of Shia and Sunni, Ahmadis, Alawites etc economicly based?

    • 回复: @Mao Cheng Ji
  102. Agent76 说:

    “我相信基督教,就像我相信太阳已经升起一样:不仅因为我看到了它,而且因为我看到了其他一切。” CS刘易斯

    为什么我讨厌宗教,却爱耶稣

    在圣经中,耶稣受到当时最虔诚的人的最大反对。 耶稣的福音和十字架的好消息的核心是完全反对自以为是/自以为义。 宗教以人为中心,耶稣以神为中心。

  103. @Seraphim

    Never heard of SJ or JT. I think it was on the History Channel. Instead of offering mere abuse of others’ actual or purported views can you answer the detail that I gave of the doco’s thesis. As someone brought up with quite a good knowledge of the Bible (i even taught Sunday School at the age of 13) but without any religious belief from the age of 15 I found it more plausible than the standard Christian version. But you think I should not. Why?

    • 回复: @Pat the Rat
    , @Seraphim
  104. Agent76 说:

    进化对比上帝电影

    听听来自世界顶尖大学的顶尖进化科学家的专业证词:

    •Peter Nonacs,加州大学洛杉矶分校生态与进化生物学教授
    •Craig Stanford,南加州大学生物科学与人类学教授
    •PZ Myers,明尼苏达大学莫里斯分校生物学副教授
    •盖尔·肯尼迪(Gail E. Kennedy),加州大学洛杉矶分校人类学副教授

    在科学方法的显微镜下,研究残留器官的证据,自然选择,第五位数字,棘背动物的相关性,达尔文的雀科和伦斯基的细菌,这些都是专家头脑中可观察到的证据。 准备动摇自己的信念。

  105. Pretty accurate article save that part about the mathematics… You ought to go back and do some real research on the subject and report back!

  106. @Anonymous

    Sorry! “There is no God, but God.” would be a trademark not a patent because the latter would demand familiarity with hard sciences (math, physics etc.) not soft ones like (jive, voodoo etc.)!

  107. As usual, Fred mixes fact and fiction to reach a false conclusion.

    Fiction: Christianity is a Jewish heresy
    Fact: Christianity produced the greatest civilization the World has known
    Fiction Christianity is dead
    False Conclusion: time now to get on with the New World Order under Jewish control.

    Jesus and the early Christians were Jews, but Christianity is not Judaism. The god of the Jews is a cruel, sadistic, tyrant, whose name the Jewish people feared to speak; he is an ignoramus, unable to distinguish between leprosy and mildew on a damp wall (Leviticus 14); and he is an irredeemable racist, sexist, homophobe, xenophobe, and an imperialist who commands the Jewish people to rule over the nations of the Earth.

    The God of the Christians is an entirely different personality, one who loves all of mankind and is to be addressed as a child speaks with a loving father. The Jewish Holy Scripture is included in the Christian Bible to provide context for the life of Jesus. [It has also served to provide Christian nations justification to engage, like the Jewish state, in criminal wars of aggression, genocide and conquest.]

    As for it being time for Christianity to give way to Judaism, suffice it to say that there are 2.2 billion nominal Christians in the world versus a mere 15 million Jews. I suggest Fred should be looking about him for signs of Christian push back.

    • 回复: @jilles dykstra
    , @Corvinus
  108. Mr. Hack 说:
    @epnngg

    Yours is a welcome reply within this grab bag of replies, mostly written in response to the question that nags at the soul of most every intelligent, inquiring human being: ‘what is the meaning of life; for what purpose am I here?’ The author of this piece makes a good point here when he states:

    ‘Insensible of the wonder and strangeness of existence, we watch Seinfeld reruns and congratulate ourselves on not paying attention to that, you know, like, religious stuff. We live under a sort or Disneyland Marxism and descend ever deeper into complacent ignorance.’

    Having to admit mea culpa for watching every Seinfeld rerun episode at least 6-7 times during my lifetime, not being able to find better metaphors for the existential existence of modern man during the last quarter of the 20th century, I can joyfully point to this tract to help lead others out of the conundrum of modern fatalistic oppression. It’s an expression of the Good News that you, of course, allude to within your reply. Theosis or deification, the pursuit of union with God, although a part of Catholic and Protestant theology is most fully taught and explained within the Orthodox Church. I consider this tract to be a ‘pearl of great value’, I hope that you do to:
    http://orthodoxinfo.com/general/theosis.aspx

    • 回复: @Che Guava
    , @epnngg
  109. @anarchyst

    How do you feel about the same sex marriage for the clergy from the parish priest to the Bishop of Rome?

    • 回复: @anarchyst
  110. @Wizard of Oz

    Are the elaborations of Hindu myth responses to the environment?

    Sure they are. Their substance is in justifying the usual societal arrangements, including, quite openly, classes of priests, warriors, workers, etc. Also, maintaining the discipline: promising rewards for prescribed behavior and inevitable punishments for deviations, just like any other religion. This is the substance, which is wrapped into a bunch of fantastic stories capturing the imagination.

    Are the differences of Shia and Sunni, Ahmadis, Alawites etc economicly based?

    There are no substantial differences between those. These are artificially introduced political divisions, identities. When elites act in concert, no one remembers of these divisions. And when elites compete, suddenly they become extremely important. But they are no more meaningful than Big-Endians and Little-Endians in Gulliver’s Travels.

  111. @Antiwar7

    We shall leave them alone 1) either when the oil is depleted or is replaced by something else, 2) and when Israel has achieved all it wants to as a destiny nation…

  112. @The White Muslim Traditionalist

    Here comes a converted cracker of yore telling his former kith and kin of the conviviality of Islam and how it is going to save the mankind… Pray, do tell us more!

  113. @wayfarer

    Christian theology developed. It was Protestant Bible Literalists who took it backwards. (I write as an Anglican).

  114. If modernity is all about different people coming together under one tent and going forward, Christianity is far better suited than Judaism. If modernity is about a small group working everyone else like serfs and keeping the profits, then Judaism is better suited for what we have now.

  115. @jilles dykstra

    Create a super race of manageable billion or so, endowed with all worldly needs without want and occupied with learning of the limitless universe then see how fast they forget religion… As long as you have detritus populating the earth, you’ll fail to eradicate the opium of the masses!

  116. @Seraphim

    Entirely compatible with anything astrophysics has to say. Especially Light.

    • 回复: @Seraphim
  117. Ram 说:
    @Alex Weir

    Czarist Russia was probably the worst of the feudal societies, with serfs serving a few masters. It was NOT collectivist. Collectivism became an attractive proposition to such a population held in bondage.
    However much the Pharisees were ridiculed, today it is Rabbinical Pharisaism which rules the wealth of the world, with the Puritan descendents becoming their tools.

  118. “Christianity seems to be dying out.” No. It has more adherents in more places than ever. Growth in SS Africa, China, Korea, Orthodoxy continues even if the rest of Europe declines and the Americas stagnate.

    • 回复: @jilles dykstra
  119. @mcohen

    Your first principle directly contradicts Sharia and is punishable by death. Have a nice day.

    • 回复: @mcohen
    , @mcohen
  120. Zeta 说:
    @The White Muslim Traditionalist

    You have elected to worship a Stalin of the cosmos. Charming.

  121. @Wizard of Oz

    Why then did he not tell billions of Buddhists, Hindus and Animists what the right theological and moral doctrines are?

    He did. It is there for anyone to read, if they care to do so.

    Why did he allow Ancient Hebrews, Jesus followers, followers of the violent pederast, Cathars, Albigensians, Hussites, Lutherans, Calvinists, Zwinglians, Anglicans etc to wallow in the uncertainty created by their many incompatibilities? The Abrahamic God is logically impossible.

    He didn’t. Last I checked, these groups are either extinct or on the fast track to be extinct in a few generations due to their own folly.

    • 回复: @Wizard of Oz
  122. Zeta 说:
    @The White Muslim Traditionalist

    Like the sun setting in a pool of mud? Logical indeed.

  123. @Seraphim

    That Zoroaster is explained to ordinary (read, disinformed over the course of a lifetime) Christians by a “buffoon” may be a “disaster,” but the larger disaster is that all of these Christians have been fed lies for all of their lives and generations before that.

    For sure, it would be preferable to have a highly-polished speaker, supported by a wealthy 501-c3, teaching the masses about Zoroaster, maybe even priests, preachers and rabbis preaching from pulpits from the books of Chronicles, but that doesn’t happen.

    你认为这是为什么?

    Why do you suppose zionists 庆祝 Passover — the slaughter of Egyptian babies (they were probably not 美丽), and Purim — the slaughter of 75,000 Persians and the displacement of their king and government, but have no day commemorating Cyrus the Great and his liberation and political and financial support of Yehud and their return to Jerusalem?

    Why do you suppose Scofield ballyhooed Protestant bible-pounders and seminaries to emphasize the Choseness of Yahweh’s people, and that Christian Zionists go on to treat the book of Revelation as more important than either Cyrus or the Sermon on the Mount?

    Marginal characters — “buffoons” — like Bill Donahue are imperfect instruments, but they are not liars with a hidden agenda, and they act as god’s fool in an attempt to clear out centuries of garbage.

    Meanwhile, here’s a more polished insight (also imperfect, imo) into Zoroaster

    • 回复: @Seraphim
  124. @Zeta

    Yeh, the true God, sorry he isn’t progressive enough for you.

    • 回复: @anonymous
  125. German_reader 说:
    @The White Muslim Traditionalist

    The religious future of the west, and everywhere outside of the Orient and the Hindu areas of India is Islam.

    You’re deluded if you think this will be allowed. By itself, the Islamic world is very weak. If we ever come to a situation where adherents of other world civilizations really regard Islam an an existential threat, it will be crushed, mercilessly.

  126. @Mao Cheng Ji

    Religion is a tool of the ruling class, used mostly for maintaining control over lower orders.

    Absolutely. Ruling is what ruling classes do, and they use tools such as religion, traffic regulations, and the criminal code, to do it. Without a ruling-class-imposed social order, life would indeed for most people be nasty, brutal and short.

    Religion is a bit different from the criminal code since it relies on the near universal human tendency to regard rules of conduct as a matter of great importance. Religious faith thus results in a form of internalized control that promotes civilized behavior in a society where one must continually interact with strangers of whose character one knows nothing.

    Religion thus eliminates the need for much external control.

    In godless places like China, and increasingly the West, brainwashing, aka education, etc., has become a substitute for religion. To the elites, a secular moral code, whether it be Communism, or multi-culti-globo-liberalism, is preferable to religion since it can be modified by legislation at any time without evidence of supernatural guidance.

    For the people, the downside to a secular religion such as Communism or globo-liberalism is that it can so readily be adapted to serve none but a tyrannical elite. In the West, globo-liberalism seeks to destroy competition from God through the promotion of multi-culturalism, which ensures that religion becomes a disruptive, not a unifying and civilizing influence, and hence something that all will come to agree should be abolished.

    • 回复: @Mao Cheng Ji
    , @Corvinus
  127. @German_reader

    What do you mean allowed? It’s happening around you. You live in Germany right? Go to look at the people in the obstetrics department in any hospital in any city of size, look at your birth rates.

    There’s no invasion going on, no horde is marching on Wien, it’s simply that you’re being replaced.

    You can hang on to comfortable delusions that the people in charge are going to to “stop it” but they’re not. It’s actually cute how you hide your fear with faux confidence.

  128. KenH 说:

    mathematics was a Christian enterprise as were physics, chemistry, pretty much everything.

    Math didn’t originate with Christianity. The pagan Greeks made great strides in math which provided a basis for later European mathematicians. Pythagoras is listed as one math’s pioneers and Euclid invented geometry. The “dry spell” Romans employed relatively sophisticated architecture and math to construct the aqueducts, the coliseum and other towering structures that were unrivaled during its time. Roman siege engineers were peerless during Rome’s heyday.

    It’s more attributable to race than religion. I don’t know of any pioneering Christian mathematicians, chemists or engineers in Africa, the Middle East or central America then or now.

    The future? Christianity seems to be dying out. A resurgence is hard to imagine.

    The real question is will Christianity outlive the white race who are on a trajectory toward diminution and collective death? Even though most Western nations are only Christian in the nominal sense these days it is still protected and granted safe haven. Western nations are still the best place on earth for Christians.

    Christendom owes its existence to European man, but now the Catholic Pope and Protestant clergy have largely turned against us. Most church leaders these days are Marxist activists anyway. They aren’t a bulwark against anything that threatens the existence of Western man nor do they intend to be from what I’ve seen.

    It’s an open questions whether Europeans left the church or if the church left Europeans. I think Europeans, being restless and inquisitive, will outgrow Christianity like it outgrew paganism.

    • 同意: German_reader
  129. Miro23 说:

    随后在XNUMX世纪出现了中东起源的第三种伟大宗教,即共产主义。 直接像基督教一样,间接像伊斯兰教一样,它是犹太人的产物。 从来没有这么小的人民对历史产生过如此大的影响。

    The appeal then (and now) is the potential for DESTRUCTION OF TRADITIONAL SOCIETY making way for a NEW ELITE. The Bolshevik Jews succeeded in Russia (Petrograd 1917) leading to the mass killings and transportation of ethnic Russians and Ukrainians. They had a brief success in Hungary (Budapest 1919: Bela Kuhn’s all Jewish “Council of Soldiers, Workers and Peasants” – Red Terror ) but failed twice in Germany ( Berlin 1919: Liebnecht and Luxemburg’s Strike & Spartacist Uprising “Dictatorship of the Proletariat” and Munich 1919: Levine’s German Soviet Revolutionary Dictatorship “Workers and Soldiers Council”) both destroyed in street gun battles.

    We live under a sort or Disneyland Marxism and descend ever deeper into complacent ignorance.

    It’s the same process of weakening society sufficiently to overthrow it – now channeled through PC Counter-Culturalism by much the same crowd.

    The article could have usefully gone further into formation of the early European states in European Christendom.

    例如:

    The late Roman Empire was already Christian after Emperor Constantine’s conversion and it was Christianity that endured after the Empire collapsed. The so called “barbarians” converted to Christianity allying with the monastic Church using written and spoken Latin for their administrations, and as a marker of being part of the educated class that they needed/aspired to. This was a European Christendom diverging from its Byzantine Eastern Orthodox brother.

    Charlemagne actually defined himself as a Christian king with the first Papal Coronation in 800 A.D., with later pagan invaders also converting to Christianity (e.g. Canute, bringing in Scandinavia). A Europe wide network of monasteries in the early Middle Ages created the reality of Christendom which was concerned with resisting Islam, regaining the Holy Places and most notably engaging in the Europe wide Christian project for the re-conquest of Spain (which it successfully did in one of the few examples of Christianity rolling back Islam).

    The future? Christianity seems to be dying out. A resurgence is hard to imagine. It simply isn’t suited to the modern world.

    Well, the Franciscans (followers of St. Francis of Assisi) are alive and well and dedicated to respect for and preservation of the natural world ” to assume responsibility for it, taking all care so that everything stays healthy and integrated, so as to offer a welcoming and friendly environment even to those who succeed us.” which is somewhat different from the US Plutocratic/Zionist/Counter Cultural “modern world” agenda.

    • 回复: @Wizard of Oz
  130. German_reader 说:
    @The White Muslim Traditionalist

    Well, I’ll be more explicit then: If there’s a real danger of Islam taking over the West, you and people like you will simply be killed, all of you. You think Europeans like me will just let you destroy our world? No, we will prevent that, and use the methods the Serbs did during the Balkan wars, and much worse. And there will be no US air force or NATO then coming to save you, because by that point America itself will be fragmented and busy with its own affairs (and many Americans will sympathize with our cause anyway).
    Now I hope that won’t be necessary since mass violence isn’t a pleasant business after all. But you’d do well to remember that something like this isn’t prevented by Muslims’ own strength. It’s prevented by Westerners’ foolish goodwill and tolerance. If you keep abusing that tolerance, don’t be surprised if eventually it’s replaced by something very different.

  131. Rurik 说:
    @The White Muslim Traditionalist

    it’s simply that you’re being replaced.

    You can hang on to comfortable delusions that the people in charge are going to to “stop it” but they’re not.

    you sound like this guy

    https://www.liveleak.com/view?i=4ad_1446489189

    but then you’re white, so you’re really more like this guy

  132. Anon • 免责声明 说:
    @AP

    Hey, I’m an undergraduate. Don’t slander us. ( 🙂 )

    • 回复: @AP
  133. Klokman 说:

    Three topics (minimum) have more controversy than anything else (aside from the termagant): Religion, politics, and history. (If it occurs in science it is because people refuse to relinquish the first two.)

    To mix the two, by one who is deficient in both…. The topic must on a rotation list, as Fred continues to dabble in it to his discredit.

    The curious thing is, everyone who has read religious and secular history knows that before the Flood era, there was no Christianity, Judaism, or Islam. Yet they had among them a civilization and technology which today we still are unable to rival.

  134. @Rurik

    Well I’m neither that aggressive nor am I a Jewish linken politician, I’m just being realistic. The great white hope isn’t coming, there will be no race war.

  135. @German_reader

    Lololol, you seem to be under delusions of grandeur.

    There will be no grand conflict, it will just look like how things are looking in America with whites and Latin Americans, a slow and steady demographic change.

    If your fantasies keep you sane, then you do you.

    • 回复: @German_reader
  136. geokat62 说:
    @SolontoCroesus

    Jason Reza Jorjani demonstrates (with compelling logic) that Greek philosophy reformed under influence of the Persians/Zoroaster

    It appears that your favourite Professor is the latest in a long line of Phoenixes to rise from the ashes:

    The idea of oriental, and especially Iranian, origins of Greek philosophy was endowed by antiquity with a legendary aura, either by declaring that Pythagoras had been Zoroaster’s pupil in Babylon (a city where neither of them had probably ever been), or by writing, as did Clement of Alexandria (Clement of Alexandria, 5.9.4), that Heraclitus had drawn on “the barbarian philosophy,” an expression by which, in view of the proximity of Ephesus to the Persian empire, he must have meant primarily the Iranian doctrines.

    The problem, studied seriously since the beginning of the 19th century, has often been negatively solved by the great historians of Greek philosophy; but it seems, nevertheless, repeatedly to rise anew like the Phoenix from its ashes, as though the temptation to compare the two traditions and discover a bond of interdependence between them periodically became irresistible.

    http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/greece-iii

    • 回复: @SolontoCroesus
  137. German_reader 说:
    @The White Muslim Traditionalist

    Muslims aren’t comparable to Latin Americans. The latter speak a Western language, have a Christian background and can intermarry with American whites without their spouse having to convert to some alien religion. Latin American immigration is probably bad for the US on the whole, but it doesn’t have the same character of a clash between hostile civilzations Islamic immigration to Europe has.
    So no, just because there probably won’t be a race war against Mexicans in the US, don’t feel safe that the same will be true for Muslims.

    • 回复: @Anonymous
  138. Rurik 说:
    @German_reader

    You think Europeans like me will just let you destroy our world? No, we will prevent that, and use the methods the Serbs did…

    people like this guy confuse kindness for weakness

    he presumes to think that like the Jews of medieval Spain opened the gates to the Moorish invasion, conquest and occupation, that the same thing is going to happen today to all of Europe and the West, and the trajectory certainly looks that way

    but Christianity/liberalism notwithstanding, the spirit of the West still lingers in the blood of its people, and when the Swedes and Brits and Germans and French have had en0ugh of the joys of diversity, they’re going to waken from their catatonic slumber, and the Western spirit will rustle to life.

    Many Muslims today are the victims of serial atrocities visited upon them by the same Zio-fiend that some of them applaud so long as its keeping the gates to Europe open for their assault, but that fiend is losing its grip, as Brexit and Trump and the rise of Le Pen are examples of. So let him gloat white he can, as his fellow Muslims suffer outrage after outrage at the Zio-hand that he kneels down and licks.

    The West is generous and tolerant to a fault, so long as those coming to her shores are refugees and supplicants. But let these people come as arrogant invading hoards, bearing not pleadings but demands, and watch as the poles used by Vlad to impale the Turkish hoards, are dusted off.

    • 回复: @dfordoom
  139. anonymous • 免责声明 说:
    @The White Muslim Traditionalist

    All right, in your view God is, like Stalin, a tyrannical SOB, whom we should obey because there will be, literally, hell to pay if we don’t, and because we’ll enjoy paradise if we do.

    Carrying the Stalin analogy further, why should we believe Him? I mean, I certainly wouldn’t believe the NKVD officer who tells me they’ll let me go and give me a nice apartment if I inform.

  140. mcohen 说:
    @anonymous coward

    Why not back your statement up with proof.how does it contradict sharia law.

  141. Patrick Harris 说:
    @Alex Weir

    Fascism in the strict sense did primarily afflict Catholic societies (Italy, Spain, Austria, France). But its hyper-radicalized variant, Nazisim, drew its strongest support from the Protestant areas of Germany.

  142. mcohen 说:
    @anonymous coward

    Ok i get it we have a two up bullshit team aptly named

    White muslim traditionalist

    无名的胆小鬼

    平安

  143. AP 说:
    @Anon

    You are probably more intelligent about these things, and more humble.

  144. Seraphim 说:
    @jilles dykstra

    You seem to be a very young, naive and impressionable person if you can be swayed by the ‘theories’ of notorious swindlers. The ‘intriguing’ theory is known long, long before Baigent &Co. At least this variant. The ‘traditional’ one is that Paul was the secret agent of Judaism to destroy the Roman Empire! I don’t know, but there must be somewhere the theory that Paul was a ‘reptilian’! Keep digging. Although I deem that it be more profitable for you to study the traditional ‘theories’ about Jesus.

    • 回复: @jilles dykstra
  145. Seraphim 说:
    @Philip Owen

    Actually, astrophysics is compatible with the Gospel.

  146. Art 说:

    Mr. Reed says he is not a Christian – he is half right. He is not a religious Christian – but he is a philosophical Christian. If you are over 50 and an American, you grew up in a Christian country that valued life and hope and truth and love and forgiveness — and the freedom those philosophical ideals generated.

    It is easy to trash many priests and preachers – they have it coming. But it is totally foolish to throw out Christian philosophy. It is the idealistic goodness that emanates from the Christian philosophical mindset that makes freedom possible. There can be no better philosophy then idealism – it is the ultimate.

    In the last 50 years, the Jew MSM have managed to trash all of Christianity by pointing to the bad priests and preachers (who were following the Jewish Old Testament). Because of the Jew – America is disintegrating. Just like in Rome, the Jews promise us bread and circuses. America is going to fall just like Rome did.

    The good news about Rome falling is that it was replaced by something better – religious and philosophical Christianity.

    It will happen again – but this time with Christian philosophy leading the way forward.

    和平—艺术

  147. Clearpoint 说:

    The strength of Christianity is its superior morality, its recognition of human frailty, and the equality of all in the eyes of God. Its impact on culture and the structure of society has been immense. Judaism is a tribal system of political organization, not a religion. It hides from the world, deceives the world, misleads the world, and steals from the world. The god it worships is the source of its power in this world — the monetary system it established and controls.

    If this is the future of humanity, humanity’s future is slavery, and perhaps extinction. Capitalism is the economic and political expression of Judaism. This expression of Judaism has replaced the religious one because it could do what the religious expression could never do – spread Judaism globally.

    That the rise of Judaism in the 19th and 20th centuries coincided with the rise of the power of the monetary system is no coincidence, but the unfolding of a long term plan of conquest. It was a brilliant plan concocted by a tiny minority of the world’s population that will soon reach its apex. But it is a plan that will ultimately fail because it must ultimately fail. Christianity has stood down and shares much blame in letting this happen, but it is far from dead.

    Ultimately it was the superior morality of Christianity that moved the world forward, not the chosen one morality of insatiable greed that is Judaism. It will recover its lost sense of purpose, eventually.

  148. The Renaissance was a result of Europe being reacquainted with classical knowledge on the dime of the Medici. Before that time there was a period called the Dark Age that was ruled by Christianity. The Christian Church was against knowledge at the time of the Renaissance. They went full ISIS with something called an inquisition. The Renaissance gave way to the Enlightenment and the present West. Also Protestantism is a result of the Medici. The Medici pope and the indulgence scam ticked off Martin Luther and started a religious schism.

    There are Christians who contributed many great things to the world but much of it was a result of earlier European knowledge and thought which they had access to. Christianity would be a positive in the West if it could be detached from its crazed land hungry father and violently insane brother.

    • 回复: @Seraphim
  149. anarchyst 说:
    @Pachyderm Pachyderma

    there is NO SUCH THING as “same sex marriage”…marriage is between a man and a woman–not “adam and steve”…it is wrong to define marriage in homosexual terms…such homosexual unions are not marriage, regardless of what the “supreme court” says…

  150. Che Guava 说:
    @Escher

    ‘Concept of zero’:Rubbish. The concept was known and considered in many cultures, Egyptian, Greek, Chinese, just from memory.

    Chinese script has a character for it and Chinese arithmetic had a notation for zero as a placeholder (which is the role of 0).

    Sure, the Indian notation was a great convenience for arithmetic, but not the introduction of a previously unknown concept.

  151. @The White Muslim Traditionalist

    If the ramblings of an obscurantist like Paul were proven false, then Jesus did not exist. If Jesus did not exist, the Koran is wrong because it mentions Jesus in it.

    The Old Testament has polygamy, slavery because that shows the fallen world filled with sin. In the New Testament, Jesus came to straighten out mankind’s sinfulness. That’s why Christianity (of the Western world) got rid of slavery and polygamy.

    Mohammed, a paedophile and child rapist, took the polygamy and slavery of the Old Testament to justify his sexual perversions.

    Islam is a religion of blacks/Asians, IQ deficient populations.

    Even though I am a Christian, I left the RCC because I do not accept black/Asian priests-popes.
    If non-whites want to be Christian, they must have their own churches. Islam is a universalist belief system, so that’s a big problem.

    Racially, you are kosher. Religiously, you are a heretic, a “kuffar.” Psychologically, you are someone who is looking for a belief system to justify things you are doing in your life.

    Devilish Islam is perfect for this.

  152. @CanSpeccy

    Bishop Tuti Frutti is black so his opinions to Caucasians is worthless. Let him start his own church away from white people.

    • 回复: @CanSpeccy
  153. marylou 说:
    @The White Muslim Traditionalist

    这就是穆斯林和基督徒的共同点:两者都害怕地狱,并为天堂收集布朗尼积分。

    在大多数评论家的心目中,基督教似乎是天主教会的代名词。 各有优劣。 只看某些圈子里的坏人是时髦的。 我在这个“基督教”中长大,我喜欢它。 我有一个快乐的童年。 我离开是因为它包含了很多明显异教的东西,并压制了新约的重要教导。

    我读过你的书,也读过我的。
    我怀疑你是否读过新约。 挑战:
    做一件简单的事。 拿一支红铅笔,从前到后通读整部古兰经,并在每一句用地狱之火和折磨永远威胁你的经文下划线。 害怕。 每一页似乎你都受到威胁。 如果你真的相信古兰经,你必须沉浸在恐惧之中。
    现在对新约做同样的事情。 我的意思是,一定要努力去做。 你不能,因为没有持续的地狱之火威胁。 凡是应该跟随着地狱之火威胁的经文,例如古兰经,新约都谈到毁灭,而不是永生等等。
    是的,最后有火。 但它会一直持续到烧毁为止。 除了灰烬,什么都没有留下。

    无论是基督徒还是穆斯林,对地狱的恐惧都是让羊群保持秩序的有力手段。 它还使您无法查看它确实所说的内容。 引入这种信仰是天主教会的一个好主意。 穆罕默德抄袭了它,大有裨益。

    所以,我买了一本古兰经,然后我从头到尾阅读它,并对特定主题进行颜色编码。 女人,天堂,(相当可笑); 呼吁战争、战斗、杀戮、暴力; 最后但并非最不重要的是,异教徒。 一半的古兰经似乎是为我这个异教徒保留的。
    也许阅读它,我怀疑你有。

  154. Che Guava 说:
    @Mr. Hack

    mea culpa for watching every Seinfeld rerun episode at least 6-7 times during my lifetime

    Congratulations for your bad taste. I had a friend who was a fan like you, tried to force me to watch it, I could never manage one episode.

    You do understand that the 黛米蒙德 depicted is entirely New York Jewish? That it is not actually funny (this is why the bass hook and canned laughter are so important)? That the Bonhomie so cloyingly depicted would evaporate if you suddenly appeared on the set?

    • 回复: @Mr. Hack
  155. FLgeezer 说:
    @Clearpoint

    Great post Clearpoint. Eloquently and clearly stated. I sometimes despair of the power, influence, and perversion of The Chosen. Posts like yours instill hope, and I thank you.

  156. @attilathehen

    Bishop Tuti Frutti is black so his opinions to Caucasians is worthless

    You’re wrong about that if on no other ground (and I could suggest several others) than that Christianity is a universalist faith.

    • 回复: @Anon
  157. Corvinus 说:
    @attilathehen

    “Even though I am a Christian, I left the RCC because I do not accept black/Asian priests-popes.”

    Religiously, you are a heretic. Unless, of course, you are able to show convincingly how Jesus, our savior, is in complete support of your decision.

    “If non-whites want to be Christian, they must have their own churches.”

    Religiously, you are a heretic. Unless, of course, you are to cite the relevant Bible passages, with full explanation, that support your position.

    • 回复: @Anon
  158. @geokat62

    Iranica Online is surely a credible resource, geokat62, capable of defending Greek culture.

    Its academic details reveal a more nuanced judgment of the extent and direction of cultural borrowings between Iran and Greece. For example, on the one hand,

    “Empedocles already shared the microcosm idea, which governed the conception of medicine he had inherited from the Cnidian school, influenced by Iran. He also declared that “the general law is widely extended through the ether of the vast dominion and the immense brightness of the sky,” (Fr. 38), which harks back to Heraclitus and, through him, to Zarathushtra proclaiming the coincidence of Aṧa with the light”

    另一方面,

    The Chaldaic Oracles, despite their fire-cult, probably owe nothing to Iran.

    “Three kinds of medicine were distinguished, through spells, the knife, or herbs, both in Iran . . . and in Greece (Pindar, 3.47-55), not elsewhere; borrowing seems, therefore, plausible, either way . . ..”

    Jorjani is an ideologue who uses (valid) facts, simplistically — i.e. it is a fact that Heraclitus lived in Ephesus, and Ephesus was in the Persian empire at the time of Heraclitus — to support points that buttress his passion; namely, a Renaissance of Iranian culture (as opposed to the Islamic subversion of Zoroastrian/Iran).

    It seems to me that rather than “Who came first, the chicken or the egg,” its far more fruitful to wrestle with the ideas, their evolution and context/in context, and how we may apply them to make our own lives better.

    • 回复: @geokat62
  159. Anon • 免责声明 说:
    @CanSpeccy

    Of the two suggested by Google for “Archbishop Tu–“, I rather prefer Bishop Turpin myself.

    • 回复: @CanSpeccy
  160. epnngg 说:
    @Mr. Hack

    哈克先生,谢谢你的链接。 在接下来的几天里,当我找到一点时间时,我会通读一遍。 感谢您的评论。

    • 同意: Mr. Hack
  161. Veritatis 说:
    @Seraphim

    “les sociétés secrètes déploient l’étendard de la liberté; l’exil et la persécution vont être le partage de l’Église.” Certainly an exile from temporal influence, at least.

    And they had already discovered the effective talking points: “Dans la lutte maintenant engagée entre le despo- tisme sacerdotal ou monarchique et le principe de liberté,”. Though perhaps nowadays they insist more on “progress”, the useful new religion. Utopias, both of them. Yet the gates of hell shall not…

    非常有趣,谢谢。

    • 回复: @Seraphim
  162. @Wizard of Oz

    ‘But you think I should not. Why?’

    Because the primary evidence gives a completely different story compared to the documentary you saw.
    The gospels are primary evidence written by people who saw the events in good faith. They are full of the most amazing detail. Sure there are some inconsistencies as you would expect of testimonies written at different times, by different people, under differing levels of persecution with differing purposes and audiences in mind. They are incredibility consistent when factors such as these are considered.
    Consider how absurd are claims that Jesus was invented. Fifteen hundred years before the first novel the gospel writers poor men, invented Jesus, invented all the stories, the Sermon on the mount, the Olivet discourse, the parables, the passion. All a work of imagination. Clearly these writers were towering geniuses who all happen to be born at the same time and place and invent a narrative that no fiction writer in all of history has come close to, except perhaps the “fiction” writers of Exodus.
    It is all beyond words in its absurdity, clearly the gospels are accounts written by sincere men.
    Wizard you should consider these things more like an artist or penitent using as much heart and creativity as head. That is how God is trying to reach us, through our heart.

    • 回复: @Wizard of Oz
  163. @anonymous coward

    The trouble is your Abrahamic God can’t be one who really cares about us as individuals as his shamans pretend he does. And if he has only created us for his ghoulish entertainment as seems the only logical conclusion why should we care about Him?

    The logical key to any posible answer favourable to your beliefs has to be the one Thomas More articulated in Utopia. His Utopia made it a capital offence to deny the existence of Heaven and Hell in an afterlife (or of Hod of course). Why? The obvious reason that God’s creatures as More knew them would, if strong, oppress and exploit the weak.

    That can no longer work as we know very well that the self we might wish to survive death must be lost with the decay of our brain.

    • 回复: @Pat the Rat
  164. @Clearpoint

    I’m thinking of starting a little monthly journal called “Protocols”. We will need an eloquent editorial bladt each month. Any chance you are available? Money not great but we will rely on the pasdion fuelled.
    PS No footnotes or bibliographies will be allowed space. We want it to look like Playboy.

  165. @jilles dykstra

    For some 1600 years christianity prevented all progress.

    This is beyond nonsense Jilles. Thoughts like this have their roots in the most extreme prejudice.

    让·金佩尔(Jean Gimpel,1918-1996)的几句话是法国历史学家和中世纪主义者…… 1987 年,他是中世纪技术和科学史学会、AVISTA 的英国分支机构和德维拉德·德翁内库尔协会的创始副主席。
    中世纪是人类最伟大的发明时代之一。 它应该被称为欧洲的第一次工业革命......
    中世纪时期见证了欧洲历史上机械引进的较快进步之一。 如果没有有效地驯服能量,这是不可能实现的。 最常见的方法是磨坊——主要是水,但也有风。 这些磨坊可以磨玉米、压榨橄榄、棕褐色皮革、造纸等。虽然罗马人使用了磨坊,但在这些后期的使用程度还远远没有达到。 这种关系与经济中奴隶的使用情况相反——工厂使用的增加与中世纪奴隶制的急剧减少相对应。
    在相距数千英里的国家建造的修道院——葡萄牙、瑞典、苏格兰、匈牙利——都有非常相似的水力系统,修道院本身的计划几乎普遍相似…… 在某些方面,圣伯纳德强加给他的修道士的纪律——严格的时间表,不可能在不受到惩罚的情况下偏离规则——让人想起亨利福特强加给他的装配线的工作规定。

    How can you ignore the plain evidence Jillies. Consider Gothic Cathedrals, how do you think these were built. The learning, craftsmanship and imagination needed to enable such buildings is immense, and was being developed over centuries.
    Look at medicine. It was Catholics who started the hospitals and universities.

    Your claim is clearly wrong.

    • 回复: @jilles dykstra
  166. It is interesting that Christianity has enjoyed; intellectually and doctrinally, some workarounds to refreshment and revision to cope with a succesion of changing civilisations and changing challenges to existing ones. In particular the secular corruption of the Catholic church at a time when the printing press was empowering people of low rank prompted people with the same dogmatic asdumption about God’s existence to resort to arguments over the supposedly divinely sanctioned scriptures. Islam has substantially missed out on that. Now Christianity faces an impossible task in harnessing the finest most vigorous minds to update it and make it plausible to moderns because science has gradually eroded the possibility of believing in the fundamentals as they were assumed to be by Luther, Calvin, Aloysius Loyola, Erasmus, More, the Popes and Henry Vlll alike. Of course its amazing how, if you are really really clever, you can still rationalise Christian belief with science…. Not a recipe for the masses however.

    • 回复: @Seraphim
  167. @Wizard of Oz

    “The logical key to any posible answer favourable to your beliefs has to be the one Thomas More articulated in Utopia. His Utopia made it a capital offence to deny the existence of Heaven and Hell in an afterlife (or of Hod of course). Why? The obvious reason that God’s creatures as More knew them would, if strong, oppress and exploit the weak.”

    The meaning here is a bit opaque.

    Are you suggesting Christian societies which believe in heaven and hell and judgement oppress an exploit the weak?

    A quote from Ronald Segal’s book on slavery in Islam.

    桑给巴尔是一座黑色的贝尔森,是一座关押着被束缚的人类的交换所,岛上的阿曼埃米尔在那里建立了一个伟大的贸易帝国,丁香掩盖了死亡的恶臭。
    由于没有新生的工业综合体供养,许多人被阉割从事家政服务或被征入奴隶军队,清空了他们民族大湖周围的土地。 据估计,十分之一的人在从内部跋涉中幸存下来。 到 10 世纪中叶,当东非奴隶大亨——其中许多是阿拉伯奴隶贩子和他们的黑人妃子的自由儿子——用尽异教徒和万物有灵论者来奴役他们时,他们和不断扩大的黑人伊斯兰帝国提供了他们的支持,规避了古兰经中提出的顾虑,并以最脆弱的犯罪借口实现了自己的顾忌。
    奴隶是伊斯兰世界似乎无法摆脱的奢侈品,尽管来自一个自以为是的西方的威胁,该西方接受了解放,就像机械化使奴隶制过时一样。 就像马匹和黄金一样,奴隶赋予地位,最富裕的家庭拥有数千。 当他于 1870 年去世时,乍得湖畔博尔努黑人州的一位阿拉伯官员有数千名奴隶来补充他的 1,000 匹种马。

    Do you think Rome was any different? It was probably worse.

    These slaves simply worked to death, or used for sex, under threat of death and torture.

    Catholic culture ended slavery in Europe, it started the hospitals and universities, and yet this culture leads the strong to exploit the weak? It is untrue.

    • 回复: @Wizard of Oz
  168. @Anon

    I cannot see what possible interest there can be in the expression of unexplained contempt for a Christian priest and Nobel Prize winner by a person of concealed identity.

    • 回复: @Anon
  169. @CanSpeccy

    What is your definition of a great civilisation ?

  170. @Pat the Rat

    Your “primary evidence” is merely a small collection sanctioned by church authorities of second and third hand accounts by persons actually unknown, despite our giving names to the authors. The selection was made – some 200 years later – despite none of the accounts being earlier than about 30 years after the death of Jesus, and it should be noted that the gospels were the narrowest posdible propaganda source for the Jesus movement giving nothing of the political context of the wider Roman world nor making it clear that there were many movements or sects like the Essenes to give background and context.

    So, if you want to answer the thesis I summarised you should atend to the detail even if you are not willing to find and view the doco (something like The Last Days of Jesus). Of course it is remarkable how the Jesus movement – especially Paul – turned disaster into triumph. Of course martyrdom by lion bite is much sexier than the suicide bomber’s way. (We should make it easier for radical Islamists to gain glory as victim martyrs so they don’t have to blow others up).

    • 回复: @Pat the Rat
  171. @Philip Owen

    My country, the Netherlands, became far better in my subjective judgment, since we liberated ourselves from religion.
    Alas we imported Islam.
    Hope it does not take us again hundreds of years for liberation.

    • 哈哈: CanSpeccy
  172. Mr. Hack 说:
    @Che Guava

    There’s no accounting for taste, or as they say in Russian:

    В кус и цвет товариша нет!

    As an American, I had the good fortune growing up on a steady fare of TV and film comedy written by talented Jewish writers. Starting with the great surrealistic cartooning of Max Fleischer, Steve Allen, Sid Caesar, Steve Allen, Burns and Allen, Woody Allen, etc; etc;

    Perhaps, your friend was trying to get you to relax and get you out of your comfort zone? 🙂

    • 回复: @Che Guava
  173. @The White Muslim Traditionalist

    You should study history in SE Europe from 1912 to 1925.
    Peoples unable to live together were deported on an enormous scale.
    So who will be replaced remains to be seen.
    Our Dutch DENK party, with propaganda that assimilation is not necessary, is playing a very dangerous game.

  174. @Seraphim

    I’m quite old, over seventy, in my view very cynical, since I discovered the truth about sept 11, and I no longer believe anything on sight.
    Can you explain why Paulus got an escort of several hundred Roman soldiers on his way from Jerusalem tot the coast, where he took a ship to Rome, to talk to the emperor ?

    • 回复: @Seraphim
  175. @marylou

    对我来说,古兰经的伟大之处在于它类似于圣经,任何人都可以找到适合他的任何东西。
    《古兰经》成书时,距穆罕默德去世大约 200 年。
    他的话引起了很大的争议。
    解决了这个问题,将他应该说的任何内容放入古兰经,但幸运的是,安排了主题。
    因此,向麦加方向祈祷的处方与向耶路撒冷方向祈祷的处方相邻。
    在一个地方要消灭犹太人,在另一个地方,如果他们生活得好,他们会被许诺到伊斯兰教的天堂,这意味着要遵循伊斯兰教的处方,例如向穷人提供帮助。

    • 回复: @Anonymous
  176. Seraphim 说:
    @Johnny F. Ive

    You would probably be surprised if someone told you that the ‘Dark Ages’ knew three ‘Renaissances’ before the Medici’s ‘Renaissance’: the Carolingian Renaissance (8th and 9th centuries), Ottonian Renaissance (10th century) and the Renaissance of the 12th century, all three characterized by significant cultural renewal right across medieval Western Europe and all under the patronage of the Church. All in search of the the European earlier knowledge (obscured perhaps, but never lost).

  177. @Pat the Rat

    The most common method was the mill – primarily water but also wind.
    ⦁ Thorkild Schioler,“罗马和伊斯兰提水轮”,欧登塞大学出版社 1973
    My objection to christianity was preventing any scientific thought.
    直到1600年
    But indeed, christianity could not prevent technical progress.
    This was exactly what broke the church’s power, Galileo saw the moons of Jupiter through a Dutch made telescope.
    The Dutch artisan Anthonie van Leeuwenhoek saw bacteria and amoebe in his primitive microscopes.
    Medicine, indeed, Calvin burned to death Servatius, who had discovered blood circulation.
    And cathedrals, great, the poor lived in them comfortably, great progress.
    Then there was the 1524 German insurrection against the aristocracy and the monasteries, so grateful they were towards the monks.
    威廉·齐默尔曼(Wilhelm Zimmermann),《德国大剧院》,1856年,1982年,柏林

    • 回复: @Pat the Rat
    , @Alden
    , @Alden
  178. Anon • 免责声明 说:
    @Corvinus

    Religiously, you are a heretic. Unless, of course, you are to cite the relevant Bible passages, with full explanation, that support your position.

    Would you kindly enlighten us with your idea, so different from that of the 字典, of what heresy and heretics are?

    • 回复: @Corvinus
  179. @marylou

    地狱是埃及人的发明。
    如果 Mozes 确实存在,那么他很可能是赫利奥波利斯被拒绝的埃及一神教太阳崇拜的前牧师。
    可能发生了一场牧师叛乱,只有一位神减少了就业。
    所以莫泽斯可能喜欢一神论的概念,它赋予当权者权力,但他可能考虑过用地狱来加强它。

  180. Seraphim 说:
    @Veritatis

    “dicebat ergo Iesus ad eos qui crediderunt ei Iudaeos: si vos manseritis in sermone meo vere discipuli mei eritis, et cognoscetis veritatem et veritas liberabit vos”.
    ” dicit ei Iesus ego sum via et veritas et vita nemo venit ad Patrem nisi per me, si cognovissetis me et Patrem meum utique cognovissetis et amodo cognoscitis eum et vidistis eum”.

    • 回复: @Veritatis
  181. Seraphim 说:
    @SolontoCroesus

    @Bill Donahue are imperfect instruments, but they are not liars with a hidden agenda

    No, their agenda is not hidden at all, they are on a mission to ‘convince’ the ‘ordinary’ that the Church is a fraud. His ‘discourse’ is a piece of political propaganda full of the usual tricks of the trade.
    But a liar he is. An academic intent to enlighten people about relations of Christianity with other religions would speak about Zarathustra, Zartosht and Zardosht in Persian and Zaratosht in Gujarati instead of ‘Zoroaster’, and about Mazdayasna instead of ‘Zoroastrism’, based on the original texts and would draw different conclusions. He would not use histrionics.

    • 回复: @SolontoCroesus
  182. Seraphim 说:
    @wayfarer

    Exponential growths lead to catastrophic ends of the curve.

  183. Seraphim 说:
    @Wizard of Oz

    You should not firstly because your religious knowledge is at the level of a 13 years old and the discussion is largely between adults.
    Secondly, because of your denial that you ever heard of SJ and JT when you reproduce word for word the themes they presented in that doco and in what is their pet theory of ‘The Jesus Dynasty’. ST&JT are involved in the archaeological forgeries of “The Jesus Family Tomb: The Discovery, the Investigation, and the Evidence That Could Change History” and ‘The Lost Tomb of Jesus’ and of the ‘James Ossuary’ (Oded Golan, the forger of the ‘James Ossuary’, narrowly avoided a long term in jail for it).
    Thirdly because one should dismiss out of hand any opinions expressed by people who start with ‘I was a Christian, but I renounced it when I realized that the ‘standard version’ is implausible, or illogical, or…(fill the dots).

    • 回复: @Wizard of Oz
  184. Anon • 免责声明 说:
    @Seraphim

    Galileo an anti-human iconoclast? Insufferable ass, I’ll grant you, but hardly more than that, I think.

    • 回复: @jilles dykstra
  185. Seraphim 说:
    @Wizard of Oz

    “If you are really really clever”, you would not confuse Saint Ignatius de Loyola with Saint Aloysius de Gonzaga. Is it a Freudian slip? Is there where you lost your faith?

    • 回复: @Wizard of Oz
  186. @CanSpeccy

    绝对

    I’m thrilled that we agree on something.

    Without a ruling-class-imposed social order, life would indeed for most people be nasty, brutal and short.

    For the ruling class – for sure. For the rest of us, who knows. And for some, those in the underclass, it’s already nasty, brutal and short.

    Religious faith thus results in a form of internalized control that promotes civilized behavior

    ‘Civilized’ is a loaded word with unreasonably positive undertones, in this context. It promotes 服从, more like. By an appeal to supernatural forces.

    In godless places like China, and increasingly the West, brainwashing, aka education, etc., has become a substitute for religion.

    Correct: education, the media, and other institutional mechanisms. Here you choose to use the word ‘brainwashing’, which has negative connotations. But you could use the word ‘civilizing’ as well, just as you did in the case of religion. Let’s be objective.

    it can be modified by legislation

    Well, I’ll say: better by legislation than secretly by a small group of elite priests. Not much better, but a little better.

    For the people, the downside to a secular religion such as Communism or globo-liberalism is that it can so readily be adapted to serve none but a tyrannical elite.

    Elites use doctrines – religious or secular – to maintain their rule. But surely the common religious doctrine of the divine right of kings is far more useful for ‘tyrannical elite’ than communism? Simply because the communist doctrine proclaims absolute equality, so it clearly isn’t the best tool.

    globo-liberalism seeks to destroy competition from God through the promotion of multi-culturalism, which ensures that religion becomes a disruptive

    I dunno about that. I get the impression that universal religions (Christianity, Islam, Buddhism) also promote multi-culturalism. The cultures of Christians in Africa, Latin America, Europe, and Asia are dramatically different. And yet they are all Christians. I don’t think German and Cuban Catholics belong to the same ‘civilization’: two very different environments, very different cultures.

    And of course there are even more universal religious doctrines, like the Universalist Church of America, new-age spiritualism, stuff like that.

  187. @jilles dykstra

    It’s easy to pick and choose single incidents and paint a damning narrative.

    The point Jillies is that Christian Europe stormed ahead of the rest of the world centuries before the Reformation when the Catholic Church was the chief spiritual guide of Europe.

    The point about the Gothic Cathedrals is that no other culture in world, at that time or at any time until the present would have had any hope of building those Cathedrals. The technology and knowledge only existed in Europe.

    Sure they could build buildings, but not on the scale or knowledge required for Gothic Cathedrals.
    And the same point rings true in many many fields. Yes Islam and Rome had water mills, they also had army’s of slaves to carry it. Yes Islam and Rome had guns, and ships and armor and farm tools and roads. But in Christian Europe under the Catholic church technical innovation and invention accelerated beyond any country and has always stayed that way until the present.

    All this happened before the Reformation.

    You divide technology and scientific thought. How the two can be divided is beyond me, But it is also a matter of historical fact that the great universities of Europe had Christian roots, they were organisation started by the Catholic Church.

    You’re picking of individual incidents here and there to create a narrative that the church impeded scientific progress is not convincing when the whole of European thought and innovation in comparison to other Non Christian nations is taken into account.

  188. Che Guava 说:
    @Mr. Hack

    Nice reply. There is no comparison of Seinfeld with most on your list. Of course, I have enjoyed work by some, have not heard of all.

    Woody Allen, if I recall correctly, is a very sleazy man who seduced his step-daughter while she was a minor.

    Sure, he made a few good films.

    Mel Brooks certainly had his moments, too, I have seen old reruns of Get Smart, it is pure brilliance, some of his movies were good, too, until they were relying too much on scatological humour.

    To me, Seinfeld is on the same unfunny plane as Sex and the City and Friends, very insular and not interesting to anyone who is not a fool or tribal member.

    It does not challenge my ‘comfort zone’, just bores and alienates, for natural reasons.

    I have decided to learn how to read the sounds of Cyrillic and names of the letters, but have just started a few days ago, should be able to read most (sounds, badly) in the week after next. So I cannot read most of the ‘as they say in Russian’ in your post.

  189. @Wizard of Oz

    I’ve seen the documentary it was interesting with good production values but I know the work of the experts they consulted so the narrative theme was pretty predictable.

    none of the accounts being earlier than about 30 years after the death of Jesus

    Only 30 years you say. That is like people writing about the 1980’s today. Are books about contemporary politics in the 80’s suspect because they are 30 years away from the historical events of the 80’s.

    I must tell that to all biographers who take Churchill or Napoleon as a subject. These people are lying and their information is utter rubbish hopelessly compromised by the government departments that fund their writing. Any new research or information must be inaccurate because it is now more than 30 years away from the death of the subject.

    These arguments are all a bit laughable Wizard, they have been constantly rolled out by haters of the Catholic church for decades.

    I doubt if anything I say will change you mind at all. I have had enough conversations with atheists in the past to know that many have erected other idols to worship. And their new idols burn with indignation and injustice towards traditional Christianity.

  190. geokat62 说:
    @SolontoCroesus

    It seems to me that rather than “Who came first, the chicken or the egg,” its far more fruitful to wrestle with the ideas, their evolution and context/in context, and how we may apply them to make our own lives better.

    While I couldn’t agree more, S2C, I couldn’t allow these statements by yourself and Jorjani to go uncontested:

    S2C – “Jason Reza Jorjani argues that Greeks were backward until after they were conquered by Persia, whereupon Greeks under Persian occupation developed more civilized habits and philosophies.”

    Jorjani – “Greece is said to be the birthplace of philosophy, but what must be realized is that philosophy emerged in the centuries after the Persians colonized Greece . . .”

    as they imply the Persian civilization is superior to the Greek, especially after having previously provided this excerpt from Copleston’s History of Philosophy, Vol. 1, which brings into sharp relief the shortcomings of 课程 living under the Persian Empire versus a citizen living within a direct democracy [in Greece]:

    当人像柏拉图那样反思人的生活、人的善和美好的生活时,他显然不能忽略人的社会关系。 人出生于一个社会,不仅是家庭的社会,也是更广泛的社会,他必须在这个社会中过上美好的生活并达到他的目的。 不能把他当作一个孤立的单位,独自生活。 然而,尽管每一个关注人文主义观点、人的地位和命运的思想家,都必须为自己形成一些人的社会关系的理论,但很可能不会产生任何国家理论,除非某种先进的政治意识消失了。前。

    如果人觉得自己是某个专制大国——例如波斯帝国——的被动成员,除了作为纳税人或士兵之外,他没有被要求扮演任何积极的角色,那么他的政治意识几乎不会被唤醒:一个独裁者或另一个,一个帝国或另一个,波斯或巴比伦,这对他来说可能没有什么区别。 但是,当一个人属于一个被要求承担责任的社会时,他不仅有义务,而且有权利和活动,那么他就会具有政治意识。 To the politically unconscious man the State may appear as some thing set over against him, alien if not oppressive, and he will tend to conceive his way of salvation as lying through individual activity and perhaps through co-operation in other societies than that of the reigning bureaucracy: he will not be immediately stimulated to form a theory of the State. To the politically conscious man, on the other hand, the State appears as a body in which he has a part, as an extension in some sort of himself, and so will be stimulated—the reflective thinker, that is to say—to form a theory of the State. The Greeks had this political consciousness in a very advanced degree: the good life was to them inconceivable apart from the polis…

    柏拉图和亚里士多德的政治理论确实为后来对国家性质和特征的富有成果的思辨奠定了基础。 柏拉图共和国的许多细节在实践中可能无法实现,即使可行也是不可取的,但他的伟大思想是国家使人的美好生活成为可能,促进人的美好生活,为人的世俗目的和福利做出贡献。 这种希腊国家的观点,也就是圣托马斯的观点,优于被称为自由主义国家观念的观点,即国家作为一个机构的观点,其功能是私人的财产,一般而言,对国家成员表现出消极态度。 在实践中,当然,即使是这种国家观点的拥护者也不得不放弃完全自由放任的政策,但与希腊人的理论相比,他们的理论仍然是贫瘠、空洞和消极的。

  191. @Seraphim

    they are on a mission to ‘convince’ the ‘ordinary’ that the Church is a fraud.

    What’s most important to you, Seraphim, worshiping “the Church” or a profound understanding of the human spirit, its relationship to ineffable grandeur of “nature and nature’s god,” and developing character and behaviors to improve — “achieve salvation,” i.e. the fullness of spiritual health and wellbeing. (Recall that Machiavelli waged war on the corruption of Roman Catholicism, but never left home without a copy of Dante in his pocket.)

    I grant you Donahue uses “histrionics.” Hard to figure out who he is, where he comes from; he seems a little weird.
    On the other hand, I’ve tried to read Mary Boyce & other scholars in an attempt to learn about Zoroaster; I get lost in the weeds — Arunya and MazdayasnaVedas; 天后 and 加萨斯 — they all run together. Maybe I’m intellectually lazy, or maybe I need to learn like a child learns — basics first, to establish a notion of what is this about? Donahue’s approach also appeals to my particular experience which is a lot like his mother’s — my Catholic experience placed very heavy emphasis on priests and nuns and sinfulness and my own powerlessness. Donahue tears that down — appropriately, in my personal opinion — as an imposition on the true meaning of much of Scripture and the essence of Zarathustra: he clears away the junk to get at an essence of a person’s relationship to nature and to the attempt to live a life of goodness.

    Congratulations on your ability to differentiate among Zarathustra, Zartosht and Zardosht in Persian and Zaratosht in Gujarati. Which of them can I find on the head of a pin, or do they dance there together?

  192. Seraphim 说:
    @jilles dykstra

    You always should beware what you are wishing for! Do not complain when you have it!

    “Liever Turks dan Paaps (“Rather Turkish than Papist”), also Liever Turksch dan Paus (“Rather Turkish than Pope”), was a Dutch slogan during the Dutch Revolt of the end of the 16th century. The slogan was used by the Dutch mercenary naval forces (the “Sea Beggars”) in their fight against Catholic Spain…
    The phrase “Liever Turks dan Paaps” was coined as a way to express that life under the Muslim Ottoman Sultan would have been more desirable than life under the Catholic King of Spain. The Flemish noble D’Esquerdes wrote to this effect that he:
    ” would rather become a tributary to the Turks than live against his conscience and be treated according to those [anti-heresy] edicts”.
    — Letter of Flemish noble D’Esquerdes.

    Smoking pot and exposing whores in windows won’t bring the liberation from the Turks.

  193. mcohen 说:

    真实的故事

    waiting at the traffic light and 3 people cross the road.2 men and a women.definitely homeless,heading for the church across the road for a meal.the woman points at the big sign on the wall of the church and says …..”see what the sign says,Jesus Saves.
    one of the men turns around and says to her…”how would you know,you’re not God”.
    but that did not stop him from getting a free meal.survival comes first.relegion gives you the will and intent to survive.
    a lot of people think the judaism and christianity and islam is about praying and this and that but the reality is that many people in need are helped by these institutions,millions of people in fact.charity or tzedakah,not sure what the islamic word is.thats what counts,helping the sick,the homeless,visiting people in hospital,volunteering.relegion is about helping your fellow man.all the rest is just window dressing.

  194. Veritatis 说:
    @Seraphim

    I’m afraid I can only muddle through Latin because of familiarity with derived languages, so I cannot really follow you there! But I recognized both quotes, among the most beautiful teachings. Via, veritas et vita. We can can get away from Him temporarily, but must needs always come back.

    • 回复: @Anon
  195. Corvinus 说:
    @Anon

    attilathehen holds two opinions which are clearly contrary to church dogma. Now, if he is able to cite evidence from the Bible that supports his position, that in reality the supermajority of Christians are themselves heretics, he would be back in the good graces of God and the rest would be subject to His wrath.

    • 回复: @Anon
  196. @Anon

    Galileo was the first experimenter in 1600 years.
    He discovered the laws of gravitation, such as that a feather falls as quickly as a stone.
    And the acceleration by gravity.
    When he saw the moons of Jupiter he realised that the earth centered universe was a fairy tale.

    • 回复: @Anon
  197. Anon • 免责声明 说:
    @Veritatis

    For those of us who might be interested but don’t speak Latin, the quoted passages are John 8:31-32 and 14:6-7 .

  198. Anon • 免责声明 说:
    @Corvinus

    Okay, I get where you’re coming from now. But most people would regard bibliolatry itself as heresy.

  199. Anon • 免责声明 说:
    @jilles dykstra

    Galileo was the first experimenter in 1600 years.

    几乎不。

    He discovered the [some?] laws of gravitation, such as that a feather falls as quickly as a stone.

    No, Stevin did that, and even he was 不是第一个 by a long shot, just the definitive establishment.

    And the acceleration by gravity.

    没有

    When he saw the moons of Jupiter he realised that the earth centered universe was a fairy tale.

    再次,没有。

    我们 http://tofspot.blogspot.com/2013/08/the-great-ptolemaic-smackdown-down-for.html for a rather entertaining discussion of the circumstances and significance of the discovery of the Jovian moons.

    Galileo was a brilliant scientist, but his reputation is ridiculously overinflated. See https://thonyc.wordpress.com/2010/06/02/extracting-the-stopper/ . And, contrary to what you may think, being a great scientist is not at all mutually exclusive with being an insufferable ass, which Galileo also was.

  200. @jilles dykstra

    My country, the Netherlands, became far better in my subjective judgment, since we liberated ourselves from religion.
    Alas we imported Islam.

    The Dutch atheists are like all the other damn fool European atheists. They childishly discarded Christianity for the trivial reason that it was based on stories that are obviously, to those raised in a scientific culture, untrue. But the truth of the narrative upon which religious faith is based is irrelevant, and only people with an adolescent conceit and stupidity would think otherwise.

    The importance of religion is that it imbues believers with a moral code, which enables strangers in a large and complex society to cooperate with one another. Now the idiot Dutch, like the cretinous Swedes and Norwegians, the Brits, the French and the Germans have discarded a faith that built the greatest civilization the world has known, while showing unlimited tolerance to adherents of the most vicious, intolerant and tyrannical faith the world has ever known.

    I don’t even wish you good luck with that. You deserve only the utmost contempt. Contempt for your idiot liberal tolerance, and contempt for your staggering ignorance and stupidity.

    • 回复: @Corvinus
  201. Anonymous • 免责声明 说:
    @jilles dykstra

    And if the Catholic Church had not prevented it, science would have discovered the hydrogen atom, dna, wiped out the black plague and went to the moon by at least 800AD. The coronation of Charlemagne being shown on TV.

    You have to put one foot in front of the other to get somewhere and that is exactly what happened, and here we are.
    What did the church prevent? In effect, nothing.

  202. Anon • 免责声明 说:
    @CanSpeccy

    Nor can I see how an expression of appreciation for the virtues of Archbishop Turpin ought to be taken as an expression of contempt for anyone else, even by a person of equally concealed identity.

  203. Anonymous • 免责声明 说:
    @jilles dykstra

    真的吗? 为何如此?
    What has become better for the average person?
    Let me tell you:
    What really improved day to day living was the invention of the washing machine, indoor plumbing, better transportation, (love public transportation in the Netherlands, for instance), modern dentistry, etc.

    As for the absence of the christian religion, the effect has been mainly the break down of the family, more and more putting the infirm to ‘sleep’ like a dog, and of course, the freedom to be as promiscuous as you like, confusion among the ‘genders’ and science if it keeps going as it is, doing away with all of us and making the planet uninhabitable.

  204. Sparkon 说:
    @epnngg

    We cannot deny the historicity of Jesus…

    S为自己顶峰。

    但是,与信徒辩论这个问题与向一些年幼的孩子坚持说真的没有圣诞老人相去不远。

    ‘Rough work, and who wants to do it?

    人类文明是否因为基督教而更加落后是一个艰难的决定,不可能知道。 我们只能知道历史告诉我们什么,例如英诺森八世 (Innocent VIII) 的出色工作,正如他在 1484 年处理巫术的教皇公报所例证:

    It has recently come to our ears…that many persons of both sexes, heedless of their own salvation and forsaking the catholic faith, give themselves over to devils male and female, and by their incantations, charms, and conjurings, and by other abominable superstitions and sortileges, offences, crimes, and misdeeds, ruin and cause to perish the offspring of women, the foal of animals, the products of the earth, the grapes of vines, and the fruits of trees, as well as men and women, cattle and flocks and herds and animals of every kind, vineyards also and orchards, meadows, pastures, harvests, grains and other fruits of the earth; that they afflict and torture with dire pains and anguish, both internal and external, these men, women, cattle, flocks, herds, and animals, and hinder men from begetting and women from conceiving, and prevent all consummation of marriage; that, moreover, they deny with sacrilegious lips the faith they received in holy baptism; and that, at the instigation of the enemy of mankind, they do not fear to commit and perpetrate many other abominable offences and crimes, at the risk of their own souls,
    [...]
    We therefore… do hereby decree, by virtue of our apostolic authority, that it shall be permitted to the said inquisitors in these regions to exercise their office of inquisition and to proceed to the correction, imprisonment, and punishment of the aforesaid persons for their said offences and crimes
    [...]
    因此,让任何人都不敢侵犯我们宣言、扩展、授权和授权的这一页,或以极大的顽强反驳它。 如果有人这么认为,让他知道他招致全能的上帝和有福的使徒彼得和保罗的愤怒。

    https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Summis_desiderantes

    Just in case almighty God is not enough, throw in Peter and Paul for good measure. Burn some witches, and pray harder…that’ll cure your impotence.

    责备替罪羊、受骗者和小人是我们现代世界的一种行之有效的做法,它的古老根源可能远远超过无辜八世的教皇公牛,直到人类文明的黎明,当时巫医通过声称获得了权力接触和/或控制自然和超自然力量。

    但一切都没有丢失。 开放的思想变成了不可知论者,既不接受也不否认一个或多个神灵的可能性,而是拒绝将人的所有神学涂鸦作为成人童话故事。

    • 回复: @epnngg
  205. Svigor 说:

    Biblical literalism is so recent a development in Christianity (and almost entirely among Protestants) that I’m tempted to call it a heresy, and seems to be centered almost entirely in the United States.

    And someone will bring up Galileo in ten, nine, eight, seven, six …

    This might seem a big deal, until one considers that a heretic has ascended to the throne of the Catholic Church.

    What a failure of a piece.. Author is clueless with a very clear bias. I wonder how he would account to the fact that almost all scientific texts used in Europe post the dark ages were translations of Arabic texts???

    Too stupid to even know English (“post the dark ages” means “from the end of the dark ages until the present.”).

    Or how about that we routinely use numerous Arabic words in science, globally, such as algebra, algorithm, chemistry, etc.? Or here is another one he could try and answer, how did the period known as the renaissance start?

    English loves to borrow words from other languages. There are many from most languages with long contact. Far more from Latin than from Arabic, of course. I wonder how the Arabs get along, without borrowing words (never mind concepts) from English? /end sarcasm. (Seriously though, what do modern Arabs do but buy others’ tech with oil money made by extracting mineral resources using European technology? And how does this pro-Muslim, pro-Arab line of thinking 不能 invariably end in Nation of Islam conspiracy theories of White Devils’ intellectual thievery and tricknology?).

    So far, the greatest accomplishments I’ve been able to attribute to Muslims is the great slaughter they made of Mongols, via the Mughal Empire. So, thanks for that, I suppose, though it was not Arabs doing the heavy lifting. There is no doubt that Muslims have been more civilized than the Mongol scum ever were (sans borrowing; yes, both cultures borrowed heavily, but the Mongols gave the world nothing they didn’t steal or borrow from someone else).

    In contrast, Western Christianity benefited from the insights of St Thomas Aquinas, who embraced classical Greek learning and reconciled it with Christian belief; and while we fought among ourselves, we were never overrun by powerful armies of other powers.

    Ironically, all the infighting might have been key to never being overrun by alien hordes. Look at “Deep Ditches and Well-built Walls: A Reappraisal of the Mongol Withdrawal from Europe in 1242” by Lindsey Stephen Pow. The TL;DR version is that the limit of the Mongol invasion of Europe corresponds almost exactly to where the frontier (limited fortifications made of wood and earth) gave way to civilization (extensive fortifications of stone). The density and quality of stone fortifications in Western and Central Europe were unparalleled. No place on Earth ever came close (China, probably well above the world historical mean in this regard, looks rather pathetic in comparison). In numbers alone (European fortifications were of dramatically higher quality than elsewhere), there are tens of thousands of known sites of stone castles in Europe: this might approach an order of magnitude greater than for any other region.

    The parts of India that put paid to the Mongols were also better-fortified than most. As was the area that marked the limits of Mongol incursions into the Levant.

    This tendency to take self-defense so seriously might have implications for European history in general that are poorly understood.

    Western Christendom came out on top, not because it started with some kind of moral superiority, but through accidents of history and geography.

    Well, if it was moral superiority, that would be down to an “accident of history” by way of evolution, or somesuch. This is always the language of the enemy.

    If protestantism can be said to have set the ground for capitalism…

    Then Catholicism and Orthodoxy can be said to have set the ground for faschism and communism.

    Fascism was basically a speed bump. Apart from its war with communism, it’s probably responsible for less than 1/10th the murders that communism is.

    And communism did most of its killing in China, where Christianity had negligible influence; we might as well say Chinese religions laid the ground for communism, as communism’s most fertile ground was outside Christian territory.

    Notice the countries effected by the respective systems.

    Tsarist Russia was collectivist and charmingly folksy with a simultaneous adoration for heroes Saints/Kings and high regard for longsuffering peasants. What better place to preach the protection of the virtue of the proleterait by wise Commisars?

    Russia was retarded for centuries by Mongol depradations, so perhaps it’s no coincidence that it was as vulnerable to communism as east Asia was.

    Speaking of the Mongols, the world’s greatest butchers by far seem to be the Mongoloid type: the Mongols, and the Red Chinese. Next to this, Europeans have no answer.

    Between Orthodoxy, Catholicism, and Protestantism:

    Which devoloped the United States Constitution?

    I think the answer to that question as to any question about human advances is niether.

    You dodged answering your own question. The answer is clearly “Protestants.”

    For one thing, Christians WERE more moral than others – the European Christian, unlike the Muslims, the Africans, the Chinese, and the American Indians, successfully abolished slavery. Christendom invented and popularized the notions of Natural Law and Human Rights. What is true that Christians never were morally perfect – but that’s not saying much, especially with regard to a religion which holds Original Sin as a core doctrine.

    I tend to think that Europeans colonized Christianity, more than Christianity colonized Europeans. They took this SW Asian import and hammered and beat and forged it until it was something they could live with.

    My God doesn’t give As for effort or love you for existing, He loves those who serve Him.

    Yes but why would anyone want his love, or to serve him?

    An intriguing theory about Jesus is that he indeed never existed, was invented by Paulus as secret agent for the Roman emperor, in order to destroy judaism.

    迈克尔·拜金特(Michael Baigent),理查德·利(Richard Leigh),《耶稣基督的雕像》,克里斯蒂安姆(Christentum)逝世,《死海古卷》,1991年,2005年,贝尔吉施·格拉德巴赫(Bergisch Gladbach)

    Care to give us English-only folks a bit more than this?

    This christianity then stopped all progress until around 1600 Galileo looked through a Dutch made telescope, and saw the moons of Jupiter.

    On the contrary, it helped enable the propagation of the knowledge left behind by the Romans. Note that the eastern Empire didn’t advance civilization much in the thousand years that followed. One might equally plausibly attribute this to a lack among the Greeks (who haven’t exactly flowered as their Christianity withered), or to a lack in their adopted religion.

    CanSpeccy 说: • 网站
    29年2017月3日,格林尼治标准时间下午35:200•XNUMX字

    As a Nationalist, I propose a third synthesis, wherein Europeans (mankind, actually, but Europeans are the bit I’m worried about) derives the original “racism, sexism, homophobia, and xenophobia” for themselves, to defend against leftist insanity (we’ll leave out the imperialist bit, it’s more globalist than Nationalist).

    Western nations are still the best place on earth for Christians.

    There is no distinction to be had here; they’re still the best place on Earth for everyone.

    我同意您的其余评论。

    The ‘intriguing’ theory is known long, long before Baigent &Co. At least this variant. The ‘traditional’ one is that Paul was the secret agent of Judaism to destroy the Roman Empire!

    Precisely. Which is why I wanted more detail than he offered.

    Mr. Reed says he is not a Christian – he is half right. He is not a religious Christian – but he is a philosophical Christian.

    Or, to borrow a Jewish term, he is a “secular Christian.” Well, I don’t know about Reed, but I am. Nothing Jews hate so much can be all bad.

    . The Christian Church was against knowledge at the time of the Renaissance. They went full ISIS with something called an inquisition.

    Nonsense. The Spanish Inquisition was largely an attempt by the Spanish to purge themselves of the cancer of crypto-Jews. It also kicked off quite the Spanish Golden Age. Britain, too, had one of the longest good runs in her history after expelling the Jews. I admit this may be more correlation than causation; it may be more that people who get their shit together tend to expel Jews, than people getting their shit together because they expelled Jews.

    The Old Testament has polygamy, slavery because that shows the fallen world filled with sin. In the New Testament, Jesus came to straighten out mankind’s sinfulness. That’s why Christianity (of the Western world) got rid of slavery and polygamy.

    There’s some math missing here: when did Christ do away with polygamy or slavery? I submit that he did not.

    Mohammed, a paedophile and child rapist, took the polygamy and slavery of the Old Testament to justify his sexual perversions.

    While I agree with much of what you say about Mohammed and Islam, I have to ask, when did Christ do away with pedophilia? I submit that he did not.

    I submit that Europeans did away with those things, because that was their preference. Christianity was naturally the form that preference took, but I don’t think it was the cause.

    ***

    Like Che Guava, I have watched less than one episode of Seinfeld. I have watched far more Seinfeld while surfing past it to find something good to watch, than I have watched continuously. Unlike Che Guava, I know almost nothing about the show. I suppose I am just instinctively repelled. Maybe I just can’t watch TV that lacks good-looking people.

    Ah, Corvanus:

    Religiously, you are a heretic. Unless, of course, you are able to show convincingly how Jesus, our savior, is in complete support of your decision.

    Logically, Corvanus is a moron.

    My country, the Netherlands, became far better in my subjective judgment, since we liberated ourselves from religion.
    Alas we imported Islam.
    Hope it does not take us again hundreds of years for liberation.

    Do you really not see the contradiction? Here, I’ll help: “liberated ourselves from religion” + “far better” = “alas we imported Islam.”

    Perhaps, your friend was trying to get you to relax and get you out of your comfort zone? 🙂

    I took to critiquing Jews to get them to relax and get out of their comfort zone (no contradiction there, amirite?). Too busy with that for anything else.

    因此,向麦加方向祈祷的处方与向耶路撒冷方向祈祷的处方相邻。
    在一个地方要消灭犹太人,在另一个地方,如果他们生活得好,他们会被许诺到伊斯兰教的天堂,这意味着要遵循伊斯兰教的处方,例如向穷人提供帮助。

    Sounds like Mohamed’s experiences with the Jews were rather typical (Jewish PR, followed by dawning reality).

    You would probably be surprised if someone told you that the ‘Dark Ages’ knew three ‘Renaissances’ before the Medici’s ‘Renaissance’: the Carolingian Renaissance (8th and 9th centuries), Ottonian Renaissance (10th century) and the Renaissance of the 12th century, all three characterized by significant cultural renewal right across medieval Western Europe and all under the patronage of the Church. All in search of the the European earlier knowledge (obscured perhaps, but never lost).

    Generally speaking, the “Dark Ages” correspond to the early Middle Ages/early Medieval period, roughly from 5-10th centuries. So two of your revivals fall outside its boundaries. It doesn’t take much jiggering to see the Carolingian revival as a transition period out of that period, and into the High Middle Ages.

    Would you kindly enlighten us with your idea, so different from that of the dictionaries, of what heresy and heretics are?

    Corvanus has a head full of bad wiring. I’m surprised he’s able to restrain himself from lecturing us about the true nature of Christianity (it means either wickedness, or leftism, in his mind). Funny how he criticizes only Christians and Christianity, but not Jews or Muslims. A familiar pattern, that.

    责备替罪羊、受骗者和小人是我们现代世界的一种行之有效的做法,它的古老根源可能远远超过无辜八世的教皇公牛,直到人类文明的黎明,当时巫医通过声称获得了权力接触和/或控制自然和超自然力量。

    Well, we can trace the practice of scapegoating as far back as the Jews, but beyond that it starts to get hazy.

  206. epnngg 说:
    @Sparkon

    Sparkon,你说满嘴!

    当我们度过短暂的一生时,保持不可知论者真的是一个真正的地方吗?
    人生没有保障吗? 难道没有绝对的真理可以衡量我们生活中的所有事物和事件是好是坏吗? 我认为我们每个人都有一个内在的自然法则,它不断提醒我们什么是善,什么是恶。 这种自然法则或良心从何而来?

    我们可以尝试从我们内部撕裂自然法则。 许多男人和女人试图净化自己的良心,有些人已经成功地这样做了,这损害了他们自己和他们所生活的社会!

    你从 Innocent The VIII 的报价真的令人震惊。 并非所有自称为基督徒的人都是真正的基督徒。 有些人确实利用基督的名来扩大自己的权力,引诱许多人走向毁灭。 但是我可以说出许多声称基督教信仰为我们的社会带来积极和实质性好处的男人和女人。 威廉威尔伯福斯浮现在脑海中。
    特蕾莎修女、塞缪尔约翰逊、迈克尔法拉第也立即浮现在脑海中。

    耶稣说许多人会奉他的名来,声称要行大奇事,但最终他们会被他拒绝。 他不断提醒他的门徒,他们要成为人类的仆人,不要渴望将自己的生活主宰于他人。

    我会争辩说,如果所有人都真正遵守耶稣的教义,并且完全能够充实十诫中的前两条诫命,那么地球上确实会有天堂。

    • 同意: Mr. Hack
  207. Corvinus 说:
    @CanSpeccy

    “while showing unlimited tolerance to adherents of the most vicious, intolerant and tyrannical faith the world has ever known”

    Y0u are certainly entitled to your opinion.

  208. @jilles dykstra

    Ik ben Nederlands! De DENK partij is een grap, maar niet zo grappig als de gedachte van de gefeminiseerde Nederlandse natie die een etnische zuivering uitvoert.

  209. @attilathehen

    Paul’s lyingdoesn’t disprove Christ, it just disproves Christ’s divinity.

  210. Corvinus 说:
    @CanSpeccy

    “Absolutely. Ruling is what ruling classes do, and they use tools such as religion, traffic regulations, and the criminal code, to do it. Without a ruling-class-imposed social order, life would indeed for most people be nasty, brutal and short.”

    Ruling is also what religion does, and they use tools such as “natural law” and religious doctrine to do it. Without a religious-class imposed social order, especially on individuals who do not strictly adhere to that particular faith, life in that society is other than desirable.

    “Religion is a bit different from the criminal code since it relies on the near universal human tendency to regard rules of conduct as a matter of great importance. Religious faith thus results in a form of internalized control that promotes civilized behavior in a society where one must continually interact with strangers of whose character one knows nothing.”

    BOTH religious based and secular societies have criminal codes that rely on this tendency you described. BOTH put pressure on individuals to internalize the rules and regulations of the society which will induce civilized conduct.

    “Religion thus eliminates the need for much external control.”

    Patently false. Refer to Puritan society.

    • 回复: @CanSpeccy
  211. @Pat the Rat

    Surely faith can’t be so bad for the intellect. You have got the point of Catholic saint Thomas More’s prescription in Utopia exactly 180 degrees wrong.

    More was assuming that people – not Christians specifically, just people, would misuse their superior abilities to exploit others and take more than their fair shate if they could and there were no sanctions against it.

    As to your point about slavery it merely emphasises that the Catholic Church did *不是* stop slavery outside Europe. It was Protestant evangelicals in England that led the way from about 100 years before the end of slavery in Brazil and Spanish America.

  212. Anonymous • 免责声明 说:
    @German_reader

    hallo German

    There is a prediction from 1828 which says, among a lot of other things:

    “Bunter Fremdling, unwillkommner Gast, flieh das Land das du gepfluegt nicht hast…”

  213. @Miro23

    Those Franciscans sound pretty much like inner city Greens to me like the ones who seem to be trying to hem me and my automobile in with bicycle only lanes….

  214. Anonymous • 免责声明 说:
    @jilles dykstra

    You obviously have not consulted neither the Bible nor the Koran very much.

    As for “Mozes” , there is no hell in the OT. You die and sleep “with your fathers. ” You are dead. Just like the animals are dead when they die. Go look it up in the OT. If you come up with the promise of an everburning hell that you can’t get out of, let me know, I have not been able to find it and have worn out a couple of Bibles.

  215. @Corvinus

    Ruling is also what religion does

    Christian religious authorities rule in religious matters, states rule in all else, and when there is a clash, states dominate. Or as Joe Stalin asked: “How many divisions does the Pope have?”

    True, Islam combines both state and religious authority in one body, which is why admission of Muslims to the West will likely destroy Western civilization, such as remains of it. Muslim migrants to the West are settlers and colonists intent on domination and ethnic cleansing.

    “Religion thus eliminates the need for much external control.”

    Patently false. Refer to Puritan society.

    Puritanism was a transient Christian heresy long gone from the world. Why not read the Origin of Political Order, by Francis Fukuyama. Then you might not be quite so aggressively ignorant on the role of religion in society. You might also read Carroll Quigley’s Evolution of Civilizations, which expounds the roles of the various institutions, including religious institutions, in determining the survival, prosperity and expansion of civilizations.

    • 回复: @Corvinus
  216. @Seraphim

    Whatever sect of Christianity you belong to should be ashamed of and embarrassed for you. You demean the notion of religious scholarship. (You are even wrong in your pettiness. As a typically enthusiastic novice atheist I put my head down and won a Religious Studies prize at 15 for Year 12 students)

    Then there is the difficulty you create of knowing whether to regard you as a deliberate liar who knows that what he writes is false or one better described by the tort lawyer’s “reckless whether it wss true or false” which tilts more towarda reckless stupidity. Neither the doco I saw nor the summsry detsils I gave have anything to do with the controversial work of SJ and JT as it is easy to check. So much for your “you reproduce word for word [sic] the themes they presented in that doco”. Your recklessness and carelessness with both the truth and the proprieties of civilised debate seem to know no bounds.

    Your final par merely exhibits a weak grasp of the rules of English (or any) prose composition as, apart from its dubious logic you don’t even make clear wbo you are referring to.

    Except that you seem bound to disgrace yourself I would invite you to try again with the thesis I summarised rather than the product of your febrile brain.

    Unlike you, I do a little elementary checking just in case I am not up to date, so I did a search for the “last days of Jesus” and, to my surprise found that the showing in Australia was of a contemporary April 2017 PBS doco with, again I note, nothing to do with your hate figures SJ or JT.

  217. @Seraphim

    At least this time you pack into a short space a summary illustration of your fatal weaknesses as a serious controversialist.

    First you put “If you are really really clever” in quotes. Surprise. Did I say that or something like it? No, and nor did anyone else on the thread.

    Then there is the totally baseless assertion that I confused Loyola and Gonzaga! Che?! You don’t even make sense of your suggestion. What sort of Freudian slip could possibly be involved (though maybe you are trying to show that you are a true early 20th century man by pretending to know something of a Viennese Jew who was one of Jewry’s least claims to intellectual achievement)?

    Even your last sentence is marred by carelessness.

    • 回复: @Seraphim
  218. @Pat the Rat

    I think you have met too many passionate atheist converts ex-fundies or ex-Cstholics. But i claim the great intellectual achievement of being a “lapsed Anglican”. Mild silly joke perhaps but it goes with my occasional explanation that being sn Anglican atheist means only that I am not a theist. I see no need for a deity that created the world and has purposes or preferences that there is any reason for us to take notice of. Everything useful that can be made to connect the “is” with the “ought” – acknowledging Hume’s and later objections – can be found in considering the evolution of the brains, bodies and societies of hominids. The Big Bang, Inflation, Higgs Boson etc. ate modtly fun for those who don’t want to use their spare mental capacity on chess or bridge, though their study might help develop new elements or maybe just find new ways to kill each other.

    • 回复: @Philip Owen
  219. Seraphim 说:
    @Wizard of Oz

    Where did you get the Aloysius Loyola from? For a winner of a Religious Studies Prize (or was it for wizardry?) is an impermissible blunder. Either you don’t know what you are talking about (of which you give us ample proofs all the time – you can’t even remember that you did indeed say ‘if you are really, really clever’ talking about yourself) or somewhere in your mind was lurking the Jesuit College of Saint Aloysius in Sydney. Why?
    I was not demeaning ‘the notion of religious studies’. I was pouring some cold water on your typically adolescent ‘novice atheist enthusiasm’. Grow up man, do some serious study before talking about serious matters.

  220. 1199: Jocelyn

    Beginning of the Crusades – Masons – Temple of Salomon

    Glasgow History – NORTH [LV2] –

    Jocelyn, The Templars and The Bishop’s Forest:

    ” In 1162, Henry II of England levied a tax to support the crusades—the first of a series of taxes levied by Henry over the years with the same objective. The Templars and Hospitallers acted as Henry’s bankers in the Holy Land. The Templars’ wide flung, large land holdings across Europe also emerged in the 1100–1300 time frame as the beginning of Europe-wide banking, as their practice was to take in local currency, for which a demand note would be given that would be good at any of their castles across Europe, allowing movement of money without the usual risk of robbery while traveling.”

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_banking

  221. @Pat the Rat

    Oh you really are a simple duffer aren’t you? Your fallacious argument could only be rescued if there were archives and letters and diaries contemporaneous with the events up to Jesus’s death to which the pseudonymous Matthew, Mark, Luke and John could have referred. As it is they don’t even give their oral sources in a way any half decent historian or journalist would.

  222. @attilathehen

    “Even though I am a Christian, I left the RCC because I do not accept black/Asian priests-popes. If non-whites want to be Christian, they must have their own churches. Islam is a universalist belief system, so that’s a big problem.”

    This is where you are misguided. You say if non-whites want to be Christian, they must have their own churches. No, that’s the wrong way to go about it.

    Whites must form their own covenant with God. A covenant that exists only between God and European folks. A covenant not unlike the one between God and the Jews.
    Because Judaism was founded on this principle, only Jews can be part of Judaism(though Reform Judaism plays funny games).

    So far, there has been two ways of worshiping God. The tribal way for Jews and universal way for gentiles.

    So, Jews have Judaism. It’s about Jews and God.

    Christians and Muslims have Christianity and Islam. And they are open to anyone who accepts Jesus or Allah(and Muhammad as his last and greatest prophet).

    So, Jews have an ethnic religion.

    Gentiles don’t. While there are French Christians, German Christians, African Christians, Arab Christians, and etc. Christianity doesn’t belong to any one of them like Judaism belongs to Jews.
    Same goes for Islam.

    So, the two options were

    Tribalism for Jews.
    Universalism for gentiles.

    But there is a third way. Tribalism for gentiles. Let each gentile group form its own covenant with God. That way, they can worship God but with a special covenant that applies only to their own kind. This is the best way. As Christianity and Islam become overly global and ‘inclusive’, they are becoming messy, confused, and contentious. To accommodate all that diversity, the religion is being made ever more generic. The result is the current pope who should be called the poop.

    [更多]

    In the end, Christianity is more about the preservation of an idea than a people/culture. In contrast, Judaism is about the preservation of a people since it can’t do without them.
    Judaism is finished if the Jews disappear. Even if non-Jews were to read the Torah after all Jews disappear, it would not be Judaism. Judaism cannot exist apart from Jewish people. As solely an idea, it is not a religion. As a religion, it needs Jews who made the Covenant with God. So, Jewish ethnos is central to Judaism.

    In contrast, the idea is what matters most in credo-religions like Christianity. Even if all German Christians were killed or died off, it doesn’t matter since Christianity could carry on in the hearts/minds of others. In the end, it doesn’t matter who believes in Jesus. What matters is the idea remains alive by spreading like a virus. Thus, any group of Christians is dispensable to Christianity. If all French Christians died, the faith could go on with Chinese Christians. If all Chinese Christians died, it could go on with Mexican Christians.
    This is why so many Christians find less value in their faith When Christianity was defacto the religion of the West, it made white folks special. But as it’s spread to Africa, Asian, and all over, white Christians now feel dispensable. Christianity can do without them. In contrast, Judaism can’t do without Jews. Christianity, as a conversion-religion, can convert any bunch of people. Judaism is a conception-religion, not a conversion-religion. Jews have to be conceived in wombs of Jewish mothers.

    But if each gentile group form their own special covenant with God, their religion will gain in meaning once again. When something is overly ‘inclusive’, it loses all value. Taken an elite college. If it goes for open admission, it is no longer a top college. It is just a community college.
    If your people have a covenant with God, then your special religion cannot do without your people. Jews believe in a universal God but through a tribal covenant. This must be the way for each people. Each people need to develop this covenant with their own prophets, narratives, and visions. This will be the great spiritual project of the 21st century. New Covenantism.

    There is a lesson to be learned from history of Jews and Christianity.
    They have mastered the art of survival through defeat. Judaism began with a humble man named Abram. He was no great warrior or super-rich powerful guy. His main justification for existence came from Covenant with God. So, his life had meaning even in exile, defeat, and loss. Even if he lost everything in the material world, he was blessed with relation to God. And in that there was everlasting hope. Because Judaism was founded on humility in covenant with greatest power, Jews could handle defeat better than any other people whose civilization was founded on pride. Take Assyrians. A mighty warlike people. Their justification was based on power and might. As long as they kicked butt, they were great. But in defeat, they were nothing because they had placed so little value for humility and wisdom of defeat.
    Of course, humility alone won’t get you very far. Humility on its own is just slavishness. If Jews only had humility, they would have groveled to the greater power and would have been happy as slaves. But Jewish humility was in relation to God, the greatest power. So, even as Jewish humility made them better-suited to weather the storms, they felt the assurance of being favored by the greatest power in the universe. Jews had humility appreciated by the pride of God.

    All peoples have their rises and falls. But when most fell, they tended to vanish from history. For one thing, most civilizations were centered around the Power. Kings and chieftains mattered most. Everyone else was servant or slave or minion. Now, as long as kings and princes kept the power, the civilization felt justified and masterful under their rule. But when the civilization was defeated, the kings and princes were killed or banished. Without pride of victory, they were nothing. And since the civilization instilled little inherent meaning to the minions and hoi polloi, they just drifted apart when their rulers fell from power or were conquered. Their cultural value depended on the status of their rulers. When their rulers were great, they felt justified in serving a great lord. But when their rulers fell, they felt empty, like how a fan feels after his team loses.
    Also, such powers tended to be idolatrous. Their power was represented by massive sculptures and monuments. So, people came to associate power with material expressions of might. The problem is when the system falls and the new conquerors take over, the monuments and idols can easily be smashed… or they can be appropriated by the conquerors as their own.

    In contrast, Judaism made every Jew feel like he counted independent of their rulers or leaders. After all, the Covenant was between God and Abraham, an ordinary man. So, there was the idea that God valued each Jew regardless of his wealth or status. So, even though there were big Jews, middle Jews, and little Jews, all Jews enjoyed spiritual parity in the eyes of God. There was a spiritual and moral democracy among the Jews. So, Jews didn’t develop minion-ism. When the Babylon kings fell, the Babylon minions were lost. Without service to their king, they had no purpose in life. But even when Jewish chieftains and kings fell and even when Jews were scattered, they felt a sense of inner value since God valued every Jews as a member of the Covenant.
    Also, as Jews were anti-idolatrous, their meaning was invested more with the idea, and ideas are portable, alive, and moral. Even if a Jewish city is sacked and Jewish treasures burned and destroyed, the core of Jewishness survives because it’s in the heart and in the texts. Also, anti-idolatry-ism had the benefit of reminding Jews to never conflate the sight of might with might itself. A Babylonian or Roman might look upon the great monuments and statues of his civilization and feel powerful. Egyptians might look upon Pyramids and other stuff and feel mighty. After all, the physical structures were so impressive. But in the end, idols are just that. They look mighty but they are just stones piled on top of another. They will not defend a people when the people grow decadent, confused, lazy, depraved, and craven. Romans were so into idolatryism that they kept believing in the power that was no longer there because they were surrounded by giant stadiums and towering monuments.

    In the end, what really matters is the stuff in the mind and hearts. Suppose there is a people with sound values in heart and mind. And there is another people with decayed values. Suppose both have nice big cities. Now, suppose a terrible natural disaster destroys the city of the people with sound values. In contrast, the city of the depraved people is spared. In 50 yrs, the sound people will rebuild a great city whereas the depraved people will let their city rot and decay. Those with sound ideas can turn nothing in something. Those with depraved ideas will turn something into nothing.

    The current West is into idolatryism. It judges everything by glittering skyscrapers and such impressive stuff. And when we look at Western cities and cities like Tokyo, they are bright and glittering. But the fact is the values in the hearts and minds of Westerners and Japanese are now decadent, depraved, and rotten. They have forgotten the meaning of family and moral values. They live and toil only for money and materialism and fun. But they think everything is fine since they got shiny buildings and stuff. But as the values of the civilization have begun to rot, the system will fail in the end.

    It can’t be an accident that Jews survived for 3,500 yrs. Also, it can’t be an accident that Christianity and Islam survived for long as continuous civilizations. Among the many ancient peoples, why did Jews have the advantage in survival? And why did Christian and Islamic civilizations survive for so long whereas pagan orders all rose and fell and vanished?

    One could argue that Greeks and Romans were more intellectually curious than the Jews. So,why did Greek and Roman civilizations fade away whereas the Jewish one survived?
    One of the blessing of intellect is the ability to think new thoughts and make progress. But the downside is the elites come to separate themselves from the rest of the community. After all, intellect and higher education are the property of the elites. We are seeing such Coming Apart today. When US was a Christian nation, the rich and the poor had faith in God in common at least. But with the fading of religion among the elites, they believe themselves to be pulling ahead of the rest. They are wrapped up with the conceit of having these fancy ideas that makes them so much better than the rest. Spirituality emotionally binds a people together. Intellect works like a razor in cutting the binds between elites and masses. The blessing of the West was that, for a long spell, it balanced the Hellenic intellectualism with Hebraic spiritualism(via Christianity). That way, the elites did think new thoughts and make progress but also felt a spiritual-emotional tie with the rest of the community.

    Intellectualism can do wonders in real meritocratic terms. But it also leads to the conceit of snobbery and smugness. It’s like the whole nonsense about acceptance of ‘gay marriage’ making some people ‘more evolved’ than others. Judaism and its outgrowths, Christianity and Islam, had a binding effect between elites and masses. Intellectualism is necessary for progress, but it can have a dividing effect between the elites and masses. Also, intellectualism fills the elites with hubris and arrogance. They think they are so smart and can do anything. They try to build the Tower of Babel. Meanwhile, they neglect the people. Also, finding common morality to be stifling to their desire for unfettered liberty, they undermine the value of shared common morality. In time, the masses become immoral too, and society begins to fall apart from all sorts of social pathologies. And when this happens, the elites are not able to re-institute a moral order even if they want to since the hoi polloi have turned into a bunch of feral pigs. For things to work again, the whole system must fall and must be built from the ground up. This is doable if there are no Negroes. But if Negroes take over, the fallen state will be permanent since the Negro way is savage.

    Japan and Germany were smashed but could rebuild after WWII. They could suffer millions of deaths and destruction of cities. But suppose Japan and Germany has been bombed with Negroes. Suppose Japan has been bombed with 30 million Negroes. Suppose Germany had been bombed with 25 million Negroes. They never would have risen from the rubble but would have been turned into Haiti. Indeed, look at Detroit. It was the leading industrial city in the 1950s. But there were all these Negroes, they burned things down, they went wild, and they took over. And now, Detroit is a hell. This is why Negroes are the worst and most terrible things in the world. Non-negro Humans can overcome just about anything but not Negro-ization. As EU is being overtaken by Africans, it is being Negro-bombed, and that will be the end of Europe. The current invasion wave is the Mother of All Negro Bombs.

  223. @Pat the Rat

    You may prefer the more concrete argument wtt to the writing of the Gospels….

    Consider how reliable our knowledge of Hitler would be if it was confined to the canon vetted by the Hitler Perpetuation Society and consisted only of the rough transcripts by anonymous interviewers of the recollections in 1975 of one of Hitler’s secretaries who had been besties with Hitler’s favourite cousin, in 1985 of his attorney who prepared and notarised his will, in 1995 of his doctor and in 2005 of a flaky philosophy student who claimed to have talked to 50 people who had known Hitler. (No exact parallels intended, just prompts to your imagination to grasp what the reality was like).

    • 回复: @Anon
  224. AaronB 说:

    犹太教? 唯物主义者在哲学意义上并不需要其拥护者相信显然不可能的事情,它似乎更好地适应了现代性。 它对科学,文化或商业的拥护者没有施加任何限制。

    Rather, it is precisely because Christianity is “otherworldly” that it has a future.

    Remember, Christianity arose in a time that had become, like ours, materialistic, and devoid of spirituality.

    Christianity was never well adapted to the world. That was its selling point. In fact, that was its whole point.

    Empires and kingdoms based on power, commerce, and materialism come and go – history is a tedious recitation of their rise and collapse – and yet it is a curious fact that “world denying” systems like Buddhism, or Christianity, alone last millenia.

    Spirituality is timeless.

    Materialism may seem dominant now, but there is a rising tide of dissatisfaction that is impossible to ignore, and in their hearts many people know materialism is false.

    Fred, “modernity” seems to be destroying itself in its stronghold of Europe – do you really think being well adapted to a suicidal creed is a good measure of success?

    If Judaism is indeed well adapted to modernity, if I were a Jew I’d be concerned.

    • 回复: @KenH
  225. AaronB 说:

    A clarification –

    I don’t know if Christianity in any of its recognizable historical forms will survive – probably not – but the othrworldly, spiritual impulse, the yearning for the Beyond and the Absolute, is poised for a comeback, after “modernity” finishes its collapse.

  226. Judaism? Materialist in the philosophical sense and not requiring its adherents to believe things apparently impossible, it would seem better adapted to modernity.

    Even Jews have largely abandoned Judaism. It may be the only religion that’s more completely dead and irrelevant than Christianity.

    The future will be a struggle to the death between Islam and the death cult of liberalism. My money’s on Islam.

    • 回复: @Seraphim
    , @Qasim
  227. @The Anti-Gnostic

    Also, have you noticed how much freedom has expanded in increasingly secular Europe?

    The loss of freedom is no accident. Secular liberalism is a religion that has to be enforced. All secular religions have to be imposed and maintained by force. There’s no other way to maintain a secular religion. Any secular religion will end in totalitarianism. You can maintain a religion by faith, or by force, and in the case of secular religions only one option is available.

  228. @Auntie Analogue

    Today even Christian churches have themselves capitulated to and adopted the false gospel of temporal material envy embedded in the various materialism-based forms of “Liberation Theology.”

    Today the majority of Christian churches are firmly in the camp of those who hope to destroy our civilisation. The craven surrender and the subsequent nauseating groveling to secularism of Christian churches has been the most horrifying event in our history.

    Perhaps it’s inevitable. Christianity is an ideal religion for slaves, women and homosexuals. It appeals to white people who want to live as slaves.

    If Christianity is to revive and play a positive role it’s going to have to get seriously medieval. Warrior monks and that sort of thing. Chivalry. Taking up the sword to fight for the faith. Medieval Christians weren’t real big on the idea of turning the other cheek. That’s why Christianity was thriving during the Middle Ages.

  229. Seraphim 说:
    @dfordoom

    Judaism is a walking corpse. Islam is the plague born from its decomposition. Liberalism too.

  230. @jilles dykstra

    Yet the crew of Columbus in 1500 or so were afraid to fall off the world.

    This statement on its own tells me I don’t need to take you seriously.

  231. @Rurik

    but Christianity/liberalism notwithstanding, the spirit of the West still lingers in the blood of its people

    I’d love to believe that. I really would. At the moment I see no evidence of it. I hope you’re right and I’m wrong.

  232. Seraphim 说:

    Most of the animus against Christianity is due to the reproach that Christianity did not deliver on promises it never made!

  233. KenH 说:
    @AaronB

    Christianity was never well adapted to the world. That was its selling point. In fact, that was its whole point.

    As another poster mentioned, Europeans more or less shaped Christianity to suit their needs. But now you could say it is revolting and returning to its “not of this world”, universalist roots. Even more disturbingly, it is taking the side of people and trends which threaten the existence of Western man (i.e, mass immigration, support for gay rights, does nothing to reverse the low birthrate of white Europeans).

    This would be like during Rome’s darkest days during the second Punic war, Roman flamines (priests) exhorting their fellow Romans to accept Hannibal and his army as their savior since Jupiter and the other Gods will it.

    So IMO opinion it’s very difficult to be loyal to a religion that stopped being loyal to us and expects us to assent to the obliteration of our identity.

    • 同意: German_reader
    • 回复: @AaronB
  234. Corvinus 说:
    @CanSpeccy

    “True, Islam combines both state and religious authority in one body, which is why admission of Muslims to the West will likely destroy Western civilization, such as remains of it.”

    First, the number of Muslim Americans in the United States on the whole have not distinctly contributed to the destruction of my nation. Second, most white people in the States are other than concerned with “Western Civilization”. Your fixation is duly noted.

    “Muslim migrants to the West are settlers and colonists intent on domination and ethnic cleansing.”

    您有权发表自己的意见。

    “Puritanism was a transient Christian heresy long gone from the world.”

    Regardless if it has gone by the wayside, the society of the Puritans clearly demonstrated their knack of external control, which refutes your contention.

    “Why not read the Origin of Political Order, by Francis Fukuyama. Then you might not be quite so aggressively ignorant on the role of religion in society.”

    Strawman. Of course throughout history, the role of religion has an enormous impact on society. But you are making the case that there ought to be ONE dominant religion that ALL people adhere to. Moreover, there are those on the Alt Right who are of the mindset that there ought not be freedom of religion, which directly counters the intention of the Founding Fathers. Vox Day says…

    “Religious freedom is a bogus and ill-considered pseudoright. In practice, it has been turned into a weapon that is almost solely used against Christianity across the West, and therefore it has to be abandoned. It has always been a charade anyhow; any religious belief or practice that challenges the state is always going to be banned no matter how sincerely held it may be. No one is about to let Aztecs start mass sacrificing to the sun or permit Druids to burn people in wicker baskets, no matter how historically legitimate their religious traditions are.”

    Do you honestly believe that the majority of white Americans who embrace a faith will demand that this key component of the First Amendment be abolished?

    • 回复: @CanSpeccy
  235. Agent76 说:

    19年2013月XNUMX日弗朗西斯教皇与肮脏的战争

    全球化研究中心的米歇尔·乔苏杜夫斯基教授指出,贝尔格利奥的过去表明他可能卷入危害人类罪。 这是GRTV专题采访,主持人James Corbett和我们的特邀嘉宾Michel Chossudovsky教授。

    Roman Catholicism vs. Biblical Christianity What Are the Key Differences? By Dr. Paul M. Elliott

    http://www.teachingtheword.org/apps/articles/web/articleid/64854/columnid/5444/default.asp

    • 回复: @Seraphim
  236. @Corvinus

    Muslims now account for over 12% of the population of London and clearly include many of a settler mentality.

  237. Corvinus 说:
    @CanSpeccy

    “Fact: Christianity produced the greatest civilization the World has known”

    This statement is actually an opinion.

    “The god of the Jews is a cruel, sadistic, tyrant, whose name the Jewish people feared to speak; he is an ignoramus, unable to distinguish between leprosy and mildew on a damp wall (Leviticus 14); and he is an irredeemable racist, sexist, homophobe, xenophobe, and an imperialist who commands the Jewish people to rule over the nations of the Earth.”

    That is called blasphemy.

    “The God of the Christians is an entirely different personality, one who loves all of mankind and is to be addressed as a child speaks with a loving father. The Jewish Holy Scripture is included in the Christian Bible to provide context for the life of Jesus. [It has also served to provide Christian nations justification to engage, like the Jewish state, in criminal wars of aggression, genocide and conquest.]”

    How is a mortal able to have the power to compare Gods?

    “I suggest Fred should be looking about him for signs of Christian push back.”

    So do expect another Crusade to take place? Will YOU lead it directly or will you be an armchair warrior?

    • 回复: @CanSpeccy
  238. Qasim 说:
    @dfordoom

    The future will be a struggle to the death between Islam and the death cult of liberalism. My money’s on Islam.

    Mine too, I think. But I am Muslim, so I worry I might be biased.

    But one could argue that competing ideologies/religions are just playing a giant game of rock/paper/scissors. And that liberalism/secularism/egalitarianism is the scissors, and that all religions are paper that can’t resist getting cut. Nietzsche believed that liberalism is just the inherent pacifism and concern for the weak in Christianity taken to its logical conclusion, and the way that liberalism has formed, grown, and co-opted Christian civilization lends credence to his view.

    The only religion that seems to have the ability to play the rock in this scenario is Islam. How does it manage this? Perhaps, as Mr. Reed so kindly states, it is because it is “fanatical and primitive”. Islam is perhaps the only religion that unequivocally sanctifies righteous violence against one’s enemies, regardless of their current weakness. Christendom has repeatedly allowed fatally subversive ideologies to germinate and flourish under its protection (atheism, Jewish ethnic activism, feminism, relativism). Islam views such things as baby Tyrannosaurus Rexes that need to be dealt with before they grow up and start biting everyone’s heads off.

    If Christianity is to revive and play a positive role it’s going to have to get seriously medieval.

    I agree, but a “Turn the other cheek” religion can easily become more pacifist. But can it become more harsh and violent? I have my doubts.

    • 回复: @dfordoom
  239. AaronB 说:
    @KenH

    Well, modern Christianity is hardly “otherworldly” – and, in fact, its influence and prestige declined the more it “modernized”. Rather the opposite of Fred’s thesis. People long for a connection to the “other world”, and the more Christianity became just another liberal institution, the more irrelevant it became.

    You are right that Europeans adapted Christianity to their needs, especially after 1450. But the anti-Christian civilization Europeans created after 1450 inevitably developed into our current predicament – with the loss of a spiritual connection, life lost its savor, became meaningless, and we have turned against ourselves.

    Materialism, it turns out, can make you strong, for a few centuries – but then it pulls the rug out from under you.

    In my experience, people who are unduly enamored of the post-1450 civilization of Europe – as Fred is here – do not like to hear that Europe’s material magnificence and power is an inevitable condition of its catastrophic decline, and Europe cannot be healthy without abandoning the materialism that was the condition for its spectacular rise. People who do not see this, find themselves pursuing dead ends and beating dead horses (“Make America Great Again”)

    I wouldn’t recommend you be loyal to any modern Christian church or institution, because as you say, they are all thoroughly corrupt. True spirituality would restore meaning to life and take away any motive for self-hate. It is the cure, and ultimately, our destiny. Self-destruction is necessarily time-limited, one way or another.

  240. Vires 说:
    @Veranon

    Better make sure your links work before sharing them next time, if you really want to put Fred to shame, that is.

    Islamic contributions to the West, much to Fred’s – the true voice of reason – and other brutes embarrassment:

    https://www.google.de/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0ahUKEwjT_vzyy8_TAhXJZVAKHYx1ChYQFgglMAA&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.lssu.edu%2Ffaculty%2Fjswedene%2FFULBRIGHT_FILES%2FIslamic%2520Contributions%2520to%2520the%2520West.doc&usg=AFQjCNEKV4vtAnB7yLruKW8H0gQztGC2_A&cad=rja

    • 回复: @Avery
  241. @Corvinus

    “Fact: Christianity produced the greatest civilization the World has known”

    This statement is actually an opinion.

    Of course. My opinion and Fred’s, and an opinion Fred amply justifies. Perhaps you didn’t read the article.

    That is called blasphemy.

    It`s also called free speech.

    How is a mortal able to have the power to compare Gods?

    A mortal possesses an organ called a brain — or anyhow some do.

    “I suggest Fred should be looking about him for signs of Christian push back.”

    So do expect another Crusade to take place? Will YOU lead it directly or will you be an armchair warrior?

    Oh God, still into ALL CAPS. Just try to speak calmly, and allow others to decide whether what you say is important or not.

    As for signs of Christian push back, it has taken the form of nationalism, for one thing. So far, that’s resulted in Brexit, Trump and Le Pen in the French Presidential run-off election.

    • 回复: @dfordoom
    , @Corvinus
  242. Avery 说:
    @Vires

    {…Islamic contributions to the West,}

    当然可以。
    So said who?

    让我们来看看:
    [Islamic Contributions to the West
    Rachida El Diwani
    Professor of Comparative Literature
    Alexandria University, Alexandria, Egypt
    Fulbright Visiting Specialist, Oct 22 – Nov 12, 2005
    苏必利尔湖州立大学
    Sault Ste. Marie, MI 49783]

    What the heck is a ‘Professor of Comparative Literature’?
    Not a Prof of history, or anthropology, or any other hard sciences.
    A Prof (?) of Literature: what a joke.
    A Ph.D. in Basketweaving would be more credible.
    And of course Egypt is one of most scientifically, economically, and culturally advanced countries in the world.

    btw: Egypt was actually pretty advanced in its time with its indigenous Coptic population. That is until Muslim Arab nomads invaded and wrecked the place. That was the Islamic contribution.

    And of course because of the high contributions of Islam to the West (sic), there is a constant stream of people from the backwards West desperately trying to get into one of the highly advanced, prosperous, peaceful Muslim countries.

  243. @Wizard of Oz

    I am perhaps slightly less lapsed than you but I agree that theology has moved on from the Bronze Age and spare a Protestant or two, senior Anglicans are mostly up to date.

    It seems that Creation (if there was such an “event”) will always be a Mystery. Everything we know about Jesus may be a telling of the story as it should have been, not as it was but he still said the right things. And there is one humanity.

    • 回复: @Wizard of Oz
  244. Seraphim 说:
    @Agent76

    The key difference is that there is no such thing as “Biblical Christianity”. There is only the Church and the anti-Church (called Protestantism).

  245. sowhat 说:
    @Clearpoint

    I agree, Clearpoint, that Christianity is far from dead and will outlive The West. We may live as lights on hillsides…ever-darkening hillsides. I’ve often wondered how my lot was to live among the Capitalists but, it could be a lot worse and is a lot worse, elsewhere. As I grow older, it’s much easier to see the slide of mankind. “It is not in man to direct his own ways.” – sounds foreign to a worldly person. Christianity- the Promise, The Gift of Eternal Life is not to be taken lightly and CANNOT be taken from anyone who has accepted the free Gift. When Christianity leaves this earth, all of hell breaks loose. We’re just passing through.

    • 回复: @Seraphim
  246. Tl;dr “What if a awovedly secular Brit will try to pass a judgement over something he is pretty much ignorant of?” + “Noticing a destinction and peculiarities of interconnectivity of Culture and Religion is Fur Loosers – Claims an Ignoramus”.

    One thing Derb gets right (by accident, hardly by knowledge). He minces words, though:

    The future? Christianity seems to be dying out. A resurgence is hard to imagine. It simply isn’t suited to the modern world. The Old Testament in particular is ugly and immoral and its magical events I suspect are too much for the modern mind

    [...]

    但是,克里斯滕多姆(Christendom)在演出持续期间真是个地狱。

    What a parochial Western-centric and utterly arrogant world-view! Why not to spell it out, finally?

    Christian God is an enemy of early 21st century Western civilization.

    Do not confuse your own particular culture at a particular point in history with “Humanity” in general. The conflict between you and God comes entirely from your cultural standards and the ideas you were brought up to believe in.

    The consequence is that Christians should fight against present-day Western civilization and seek to change it. Christians should absolutely NOT see themselves as part of Western civilization, but rather as a sort of resistance movement that exists within it. They live inside an anti-Christian culture and it’s long past time they should acted like it.

    All this talk about “White Christians” beseiged from all sides by degenerates in the West is a lie. They are not really Christian in the first place. They are neo-Pagans who have their own personal Jesus since the times of the so-called Renaissance. There is virtually nothing about the Christian paradigm that is dominant in our day, except perhaps for an empty shell, used as a badge of group-identification but largely emptied of content. What is “Christian” about the self-absorbed, competitive, individualistic, capitalist culture of the present-day West, obsessed with instant gratification, shopping, sex, and celebrity gossip? The fact that some people wave around crosses to justify rooting for some political team over some other team, while both teams preach the gospel of “screw thy neighbor”?

    A lot of Christians are deluding themselves into thinking that they live in a “Christian nation” or that Western culture is in some way Christian culture, but they are dead wrong. In the present-day West Christianity, as a set of values, is facing the greatest enemy assault since the days of pagan Rome. It is an assault driven by the forces of consumer culture, selfishness, promiscuity, and capitalism.

    So while self-identified Christians may be on top, they are presiding over a culture increasingly devoid of any semblance of Christian values. And they don’t seem to realize this.

    Besides – Christianity is not a hive-mind, which secularists like Derb imply. Neither is the colour of one’s skin is important for a Christian.

  247. @Qasim

    Christendom has repeatedly allowed fatally subversive ideologies to germinate and flourish under its protection (atheism, Jewish ethnic activism, feminism, relativism). Islam views such things as baby Tyrannosaurus Rexes that need to be dealt with before they grow up and start biting everyone’s heads off.

    Christianity has been a tolerant religion. And a tolerant religion inevitably becomes a dead religion.

  248. @CanSpeccy

    As for signs of Christian push back, it has taken the form of nationalism, for one thing. So far, that’s resulted in Brexit, Trump and Le Pen in the French Presidential run-off election.

    Actually the revival of European nationalism has been an entirely secular phenomenon. The European nationalists are trying to save the corrupt, stinking, rotting carcase of liberalism. They want to make Europe a safe rainbow space in which homosexuals can freely prey on the young, in which women can slaughter their unborn offspring, in which cultural and moral degeneracy can continue to thrive. They want to make Europe safe for Gay Pride marches, not for Christianity.

    That’s why the European nationalists have failed so far and will continue to fail. They don’t stand for anything positive. They are anti-Christian.

    • 回复: @CanSpeccy
    , @KenH
  249. bjondo 说:

    All religions seem to have very positive contributions to mankind. A few negative.

    The only one that is 100% negative is Judaism. And many say it is not a religion.

    • 回复: @Wizard of Oz
  250. @Philip Owen

    Nicely said. But how persuade others of our “one humanity”?

    We ought to humbly rejoice in so much good fortune from Reformation, through Scientific, Agricultural and Industrial Revolutions, leading to an Enlightenment with a still Jesus related base that was all protected by the sea. (Thank God that the Vikings who hadn’t been completely defanged by Christianity were interested in Eadtern Europe).

    I think Greg Clark in his “A Farewell to Alms etc” missed the importance of the beauty of the KJV Bible and its predecessors from which it took so much being read to families every week. What an incentive to literacy as well as morality it must have been (not least compared to being lectured at by a celibate priest who was the only one who could read the Latin text).

    I am reminded of quizzing a particle physicist friend whom I had just been querying about time coming into existence at the Big Bang about his takung Communion at the service we had both attended (and I was given the honour of reading the Intercessions). “Oh I don’t think it’s got anything to do with the Big Bang” he said, “It’s just that the 1662 Bokk of Common Prayer was such a marvellous work!”.**

    Another old friend to whom I quoted this said “Oh you mean the 1549 Cranmer prayer book?”. I like to think my real time response was “Actually the 1551 revision….”.

    Funny lot aren’t we? A Jewish scientist couple to whom I described myself as an Anglican atheist described themselves as “Jewish atheists” but then one (only) of them got a bit funny about the other being served pork….

  251. @bjondo

    Stop and think. What does it say about you that you can’t recall what some Hindu sectarians have been doing to Muslims and their mosques in India. “Oh that’s just a sect” do I hear you say? But Judaism has many many sects.

  252. @dfordoom

    Actually the revival of European nationalism has been an entirely secular phenomenon.

    Among the leadership, people like Farage, you may be largely correct. But the nationalist movement in the UK, for example, would have made much greater strides under just about anyone other than the leaders it had. In fact, I believe it most probable that the nationalist leadership in Britain, both BNP and UKIP, has been controlled opposition (Hence the lunatic meltdown of Nick Griffin during the 2010 election campaign, during which he accused his campaign manager of attempting to murder him, appeared in party political TV broadcast with a jar of Marmite — resulting in a threat of legal action by Unilever, and organized the bloodying of a reporter during an election rally; and the almost equally bizarre antics of Farage during the last UK election, promising, for example, more Commonwealth immigration, i.e., more Muslim Pakis, precisely what the nationalists don’t want).

    Mostly, the British nationalists are over 40’s, whereas the youth of the nation, like that of the rest of Europe, has been well brainwashed in the religion of Political Correctness. I believe that among that older nationalist group there are many who would like to see an end to the purely secular society. Certainly the revival of the Orthodox Church in Russia seems to have done nothing to dampen enthusiasm among Russians for Putinist nationalism. Further, it almost certainly accounts for the high regard in which Putin is held by many people in Europe.

  253. Seraphim 说:
    @sowhat

    ‘Christianity’ may disappear. But not the Church. She is eternal and indestructible. The Lord promised to Peter:
    “And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it”.

  254. Anonymous [AKA "ScizzaMan"] 说:
    @Mulegino1

    King Kamahameha?

    I always wondered what happened to that lost 13th tribe!

  255. KenH 说:
    @dfordoom

    The European nationalists are trying to save the corrupt, stinking, rotting carcase of liberalism.

    Q: What are the Christian churches doing to weaken and defeat the “corrupt, stinking, rotting carcass of liberalism?
    A: Next to nothing. In fact, the belief systems of the two have fused in some cases. Both are anti-racist and both support multiculturalism, albeit for slightly different reasons Both revere the Jewish people. Both are largely indifferent to, or support, the growing influence of Islam in the West (after all, Jesus is tolerant of Muslim intolerance and violence, but doesn’t like white racists and ethno-nationalists).

    The church seems to be much more hostile to ethnic and racial nationalists than they are liberals and liberalism.

    Despite their faults, at least the European nationalists recognize the danger that mass third world immigration and the rise of Islam poses to the future of Western Europe. The nationalists will at least give Europe a chance to survive, better than what they have now. They will give Christianity a chance to survive which they won’t have when Islam becomes dominant.

    If we leave the matter up to the current incarnation of always be meek and turn the other cheek Christianity then Europe will be praying towards Mecca five times a day by 2050 and likely before.

    • 同意: CanSpeccy, German_reader
    • 回复: @Corvinus
    , @KenH
    , @Seraphim
    , @dfordoom
  256. DanFromCT 说:

    Fred cites several works but apparently borrowed without attribution that contrast between the high achievements of Christendom and its fashionable enemies from David Bentley Hart’s Atheist Delusions. Fred feels safe doing this because his argument is as predictable as night follows day in suggesting Christianity is a spent force supplanted by Judaism. If there’s a spent force in view it’s Fred, who I understand had been a Marine, but (paraphrasing Jefferson’s observation as a Hamilton rode by on a horse) no warrior could possibly lose so much of his manhood that he’d become a lickspittle waterboy for Israel’s fifth column.

    • 同意: utu
  257. Corvinus 说:
    @CanSpeccy

    “Oh God, still into ALL CAPS. Just try to speak calmly, and allow others to decide whether what you say is important or not.”

    I’m not the one hyperventilating here by claiming how Islam is an “evil” religion compared to Christianity. The questions still stand–So do expect another Crusade to take place? Will YOU lead it directly or will you be an armchair warrior?

    • 回复: @CanSpeccy
  258. @Corvinus

    I’m not the one hyperventilating here by claiming how Islam is an “evil” religion compared to Christianity.

    Neither am I. Why don’t you go bug someone else.

  259. Corvinus 说:
    @KenH

    “The nationalists will at least give Europe a chance to survive, better than what they have now. They will give Christianity a chance to survive which they won’t have when Islam becomes dominant.”

    So what are you and your buddy CanSpeccy prepared to do to ensure that Islam does not become dominant? Are you willing to put your life on the line rather than meekly submit?

    • 回复: @CanSpeccy
  260. @Corvinus

    So what are you and your buddy CanSpeccy

    As a law-abiding citizen I do what the existing political process allows. Suggesting, for example, that people who oppose the Islamification of Europe vote for anti-mass Muslim immigration political candidates, including Trump (perhaps), the British Brexiteers (most of whom are among the 70% of Britons who have shown in polls over the years that they strongly oppose mass immigration of anyone, Muslim or otherwise, to Britain) and Le Pen.

    But what about you Corvy, what are you doing about it? Or do you think that the Islamification of Europe is a good thing?

    • 同意: KenH
    • 回复: @Corvinus
  261. Logan 说:
    @JerseyJeffersonian

    “And the Arabic texts were overwhelmingly themselves translations from Greek texts, some of which originated in Pre-Christian times, but had been cherished and preserved by, uh, Christians. ”

    The texts in question were all pre-Christian. They had not been cherished and preserved by Christians, which is why the Christians were so happy to get even translations of them from the Muslims.

    The Renaissance was also kicked off by Greek refugees from the fall of Constantinople.

    Part of the problem here is people conflating different eras. The Dark Ages in Europe were when Islam was at its height intellectually. Islam then, as some here have noted, pretty much rejected intellectual advancement at about the same time as Christendom largely embraced it.

    Not a wise move, geopolitically speaking.

    • 回复: @Anon
  262. Anon • 免责声明 说:
    @Logan

    The texts in question were all pre-Christian. They had not been cherished and preserved by Christians, which is why the Christians were so happy to get even translations of them from the Muslims.

    All? Euclid and Aristotle, yes. Philoponus, no. If they had not been preserved by Christians, where did they come from?

    The Renaissance was also kicked off by Greek refugees from the fall of Constantinople

    Really? What, in your view, constituted the Renaissance? And what would these Greeks have been, Muslim? Surely they couldn’t be Christians, because then they would be ignoramuses who neither cherished, nor preserved, nor studied knowledge of any kind.

    • 回复: @geokat62
    , @Logan
  263. KenH 说:
    @KenH

    Marine LaPen promises to repeal gay marriage if elected. So much for the claim that European nationalists are libertine or moral reprobates.

    http://www.breitbart.com/london/2017/05/02/le-pen-repeal-gay-marriage-elected/

    • 回复: @dfordoom
  264. geokat62 说:
    @Anon

    The Renaissance was also kicked off by Greek refugees from the fall of Constantinople

    真的吗?

    真。

    [更多]

    Sailing From Byzantium by Colin Wells

    Book Review by Tobias

    One cannot avoid the fact that Rome’s shadow has been cast over the ages, spreading knowledge, wisdom, technology etc over centuries and through many peoples of the world, to have a resounding influence on today’s world. How has this influence survived so long, when it is a commonly held thought that Rome ended in the 5th century A.D., and that this “fall” was the end to any Roman influence in the world? The answer is that Rome did not fall, it merely changed location. The small ancient Greek colony of Byzantium was chosen as the site of Nova Roma, Constantinople. It is this side of history, that of the “Byzantine” Romans, that has so often been overlooked. It is not generally known how much the modern world owes to this civilisation, which has until recently, been known as more of a historical footnote than a major influence on the world.

    Interest in Byzantium has, however, been piqued in the last century and onwards. It is here, the new desire for information on the Byzantines, that Colin Wells’ “Sailing from Byzantium: How a lost Empire shaped the world” steps in to help fill the vacuum in our history around the Byzantines and their role in history.

    “Sailing from Byzantium: How a lost empire shaped the world”, is a title that indicates the depth of the work in this book. The initial parts of the book provide the reader with the details of the major characters – who feature not only in the book, but in history which are significant in conjunction with the Byzantines and their effect on the world through the ages. Along with a detailed timeline of the events in the book, the reader is supplied with a series of maps, so as to give an idea on the extent and context of the Byzantine world and its neighbours. All of this information, pregnant with detail, has been supplied before the immense story of the Byzantines has even begun providing the reader with a pleasant feeling of anticipation of what lies ahead. The context of Byzantium established we launch into the annals of the Byzantines.

    The history itself is split into three parts; juxtaposing Byzantium with the civilisations it would effect and shape. Part I focuses on Byzantium and the West; referring to Byzantine relations and influence with the city states of Italy which would later be the bright lights of learning in the Renaissance. The reader gains significant insight into the fall of the Western Roman Empire, later Byzantine control of the west and lasting Byzantine influence and remnants in the west, such as great works of art, architecture etc. As is said in the book, “Travel to Italy, you’ll find that Byzantium is never more than a stone’s throw away.”

    Part II focuses on what would appear to be two diametrically opposed civilisations; that of the Byzantines and the Islamic World. We are presented with a detailed picture of Muhammad’s journeys, the rise of the then new religion of Islam and it’s steady rise to prominence, the sudden outward expansion of Islam and the inevitable clashes with the Byzantines and the west, it’s height of power under it’s greatest rulers of the Umayyad and Abbasid Caliphates and the “golden age of Islamic Learning” attained through their exposure to and translation of Greek texts, which would shape the world of Islam for years to come.

    Part III shows the effect of Byzantium on the rising Slavic world. The reader learns of the sudden appearance of warlike peoples on the Byzantine doorstep and the urgent missions to convert these peoples to Christianity. We relive the dominance of Symeon the Great of Bulgaria, the greater dominance of a series of Byzantine soldier-Emperors, and the amazing conversion of the rising power of the Rus (starting with Kiev) to Christianity, ultimately shaping the Russian peoples. The book shows how these people were educated in Byzantine knowledge, culture, language and architecture. The audience can see clearly how Russia today was shaped by Byzantium. This part ends in an epilogue concerning “The Last Byzantine”; an amazing and moving story.

    With all these mammoth parts read, the audience comes away with a staggering experience; one unfamiliar with the profound effect of the Byzantines via these different peoples will now have a more clear picture on exactly how much of the world was shaped by the Byzantines. One who knows of this influence will no doubt have learnt something new, regardless.

    “Sailing from Byzantium: How a lost empire shaped the world” is a tremendous anthology of how the remains of one of the greatest empires the world has ever known influenced the shape of the world. Colin Wells has provided a fascinating historical story, featuring famous and infamous personas, great military and religious campaigns and courageous accounts of the many missionaries and other learned people who extended the retained and built-up knowledge of the Romans and Greeks to the Western peoples in Italy, the Arabic peoples in the middle east and the Slavic peoples to the far north of Byzantium.

    We can thank Byzantium for the great Renaissance that followed medieval times, the enlightenment of learning for the Islamic peoples and quite a large amount of modern Russia’s culture, architecture and history. This book is fit to take its place in the upper echelons of literature; a marvellous read for anyone interested in the history of civilisation, Byzantium or the world. Colin Wells has put together a masterpiece entailing the journey of knowledge through the medium of Byzantium.

    http://www.unrv.com/book-review/sailing-from-byzantium.php

  265. Seraphim 说:
    @KenH

    White racists and ethno-nationalists’s consistently anti-Church and anti-Christian stance shows that they are the dupes of those against whom they pretend to fight. A fifth column.

    • 同意: utu
  266. @KenH

    Q: What are the Christian churches doing to weaken and defeat the “corrupt, stinking, rotting carcass of liberalism?
    A: Next to nothing. In fact, the belief systems of the two have fused in some cases.

    I agree completely. Christianity as it exists today, for the most part, is not even a religion any more. It’s a more sentimental more maudlin more nauseating variation on liberalism. The religious concepts have been largely removed in case they prove to be racist, sexist, islamophobic, anti-semitic or homophobic.

    Christianity started to die when it became a religion for women and homosexuals.

    The only Christianity that would be of any use to us at all at this point would be a Christianity purged of all post-Reformation post-Enlightenment heresies. The Christianity of the 12th century AD, not the 21st century. That’s the kind of Christianity we need to combat liberalism.
    That’s not likely to happen.

    If we leave the matter up to the current incarnation of always be meek and turn the other cheek Christianity then Europe will be praying towards Mecca five times a day by 2050 and likely before.

    Better Islamic than liberal. Liberalism is the more dangerous enemy.

    • 回复: @Lyttenburgh
    , @Lyttenburgh
  267. @KenH

    Marine LaPen promises to repeal gay marriage if elected.

    That’s good news. You can’t save European civilisation by embracing moral degeneracy.

  268. @dfordoom

    I agree completely. Christianity as it exists today, for the most part, is not even a religion any more.

    First of all – Christianity is not a hive-mind.

    Second – are you a Christian yourself, you, anonymous voice from the Web? Do you believe in the Trinity who is Three-in-One, in the Original Sin, and the reality of Heaven and Hell? Do you espouse all the Christian virtues and condemn the Seven Deadly Sins? Do you? DO? YOU?

    And the lest of you, oh, brave anonymouse commenters – are you Christian? If not – who are you to pass the judgement?

    • 回复: @CanSpeccy
  269. @dfordoom

    It’s a more sentimental more maudlin more nauseating variation on liberalism.

    I’m sorry, you are talking about something your very own… with your own. Not me!

    Christianity started to die when it became a religion for women and homosexuals.

    Mein fuhrer, when did it happen?! I have no idea when!!

    The only Christianity that would be of any use to us at all at this point

    1) Define “us”
    2) Define “use”
    3) Define “this point [at]”

    Becuase something tells me, you are not a Christian.

    The Christianity of the 12th century AD, not the 21st century. That’s the kind of Christianity we need to combat liberalism.
    That’s not likely to happen.

    What is not likely to happen is for you, Anonymous by whatever Name, is to convert to the Orthodox Church.

  270. @Lyttenburgh

    Do you believe in the Trinity who is Three-in-One, in the Original Sin …

    Did Jesus?

    • 同意: German_reader
    • 回复: @Seraphim
    , @Lyttenburgh
  271. Corvinus 说:
    @CanSpeccy

    “As a law-abiding citizen I do what the existing political process allows. Suggesting, for example, that people who oppose the Islamification of Europe vote for anti-mass Muslim immigration political candidates, including Trump (perhaps), the British Brexiteers (most of whom are among the 70% of Britons who have shown in polls over the years that they strongly oppose mass immigration of anyone, Muslim or otherwise, to Britain) and Le Pen.”

    Great to know that you oppose those individuals who employ violence to force Muslims out of these nations.

    “But what about you Corvy, what are you doing about it?”

    I live in the States. And I embrace all of the my neighbors. Little Muhammad down the street isn’t going to firebomb my house.

    “Or do you think that the Islamification of Europe is a good thing?”

    I’m not into conspiracy theories.

    • 回复: @CanSpeccy
  272. @Corvinus

    I’m not into conspiracy theories.

    Forget the childish name-calling, tell us how you explain these statements by Mr. Malik, former Justice Minister in the UK Government of Tony Bliar:

    “In 1997 we got our first Muslim MP
    In 2001 we had two Muslim MPs
    In 2005 we had four Muslim MPs
    In 2009/10 we’ll have 8 Muslim MPs
    In 2014 we’ll have 14 Muslim MPs

    At this rate the whole Parliament will be Muslim. ….”

    来源

    And how do you dispose of this comment by the chairman and head spokesman of the Islamic Cultural Centre, better known as Riga Mosque:

    伊斯兰教将在欧洲取代基督教,就像基督教在几个世纪前取代异教一样,它将通过子宫而不是利剑征服,使拉脱维亚成为伊斯兰国家。

    So I ask again:

    “do you think that the Islamification of Europe is a good thing?”

    • 回复: @Seraphim
    , @Corvinus
  273. Logan 说:
    @Anon

    You’re jumping to conclusions about my opinions.

    Of course the Greeks from Constantinople were Christians. I mentioned them because I was objecting to the notion that the Renaissance was kicked off by borrowing from Islam. Most of the borrowing in question took place a couple of centuries before the Renaissance.

    Also, I realize I didn’t word my comment well in one regard. When I referred to “Christians” not preserving the ancient texts, I was referring to western or Latin Christians who had lost most of them. You are entirely right that the Muslims got their copies from the Greek, Syriac and Coptic Christians.

    My primary points was that Islam did go through a period where it was among the brightest intellectual stars in the sky. But it turned its back on that almost a millenium ago. Seems to me that’s at least as big a criticism than inaccurate claims that Islam never produced any intellectual product at all. And it has the big advantage of being entirely true.

  274. Seraphim 说:
    @CanSpeccy

    This is the silly question of the clever by half. How could He not believe when He was one of the Trinity?

    • 回复: @CanSpeccy
  275. Seraphim 说:
    @CanSpeccy

    @“do you think that the Islamification of Europe is a good thing?”

    No, it is not a good thing at all. Perhaps, but only marginally, not worse that a drugged LGBT Antifa one (who love their future masters anyway).

    • 回复: @CanSpeccy
    , @Avery
  276. @Seraphim

    How could He [Jesus] not believe when He was one of the Trinity?

    Jesus never, according to the gospels, referred to himself as God. However, as recorded in 78 places in the gospels, He did refer to himself as “the son of [a] man.” So there’s nothing silly about the question of whether Jesus believed himself to be one of the Trinity. And in fact the Trinity is never mentioned in the Bible, so it seems most unlikely that Jesus considered himself to be one of the Trinity.

    Likewise, Jesus is not recorded to have said anything that can be construed as belief in Original Sin.

    So, no, nothing silly about my question.

    In fact, Christianity has very little to do with the teachings of Jesus the Jew, a person about whom we know very little. Jesus never wrote anything and His disciples were illiterates and never wrote anything, so all we know of Jesus is what was written long after His death by, we know not whom, with we know not what axes to grind.

    In fact, Christianity is a largely a Pauline invention with modifications to suit the needs of the Empire.

    • 回复: @Seraphim
    , @Lyttenburgh
  277. @Seraphim

    Re: Islamification of Europe

    Agree it is not a good thing. Not sure what LGBT Antifa is, but it sounds bad, although I suspect that along with Islamification of Europe it is part and parcel of a program to destroy the national coherence, moral strength, and identities of the European peoples thereby clearing the way for the New World Ordure under which we will be ruled by an international oligarchy of billionaires who want a mongrelized, demoralized and degraded helot mass to use, abuse, or exterminate as they see fit.

  278. damn, I never thought fred is religious 😛 TIL.

  279. Avery 说:
    @Seraphim

    {No, it is not a good thing at all. Perhaps, but only marginally, not worse that a drugged LGBT Antifa one (who love their future masters anyway).}

    ‘but only marginally’.

    Nonsense: LGBT has a finite supply of ‘recruits’.
    Islam has a practically unlimited supply.

    Anyone who is not Muslim can be converted – either on pain of death or by persuasion – to become Muslim. And that Muslim will work to convert other non-Muslims, and that Muslim will work to convert…….ad infinitum.

    There is a small percentage of non-LGBT who are ‘confused’ that LGBT can potentially convert, but it is insignificant. Natural LGBT cohort is no more than 2%-3% for males, and maybe 5% for females. And I am not aware of _any_ LGBT advocates who will cut your throat if you do not ‘convert’: Islamists will.

  280. Seraphim 说:
    @CanSpeccy

    @Christianity is a largely a Pauline invention

    Now, that’s really silly.

    @Jesus never, according to the gospels, referred to himself as God

    That’s even more silly because it’s not true. You would not have said that if you had ever read the Gospels.
    “And Jesus walked in the temple in Solomon’s porch. 24 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly. 25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father’s name, they bear witness of me. 26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand. 30 I and my Father are one. 31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. 32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? 33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. 34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? 35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; 36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? 37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. 38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him” (John, 10:23-38).

    @Christianity has very little to do with the teachings of Jesus the Jew

    That’s true. We indeed know next to nothing about Jesus ‘the Jew’. Jesus ‘the Jew’ is a… Jewish invention.

    • 回复: @CanSpeccy
  281. @CanSpeccy

    Did Jesus?

    Seeing as he was an integral part of the Trinity (hint: the Son) there are extreamly good chances of this.

  282. @CanSpeccy

    Jesus never, according to the gospels, referred to himself as God.

    Question – are you Sola Scriptura Heretic?

    And in fact the Trinity is never mentioned in the Bible

    Of course, there is no verse that says “God is One in Three” or “God is a Trinity.” This is evident and true, but it proves nothing. There are many words and phrases that Christians use but are nevertheless not found in the Bible. For example, the word “Bible” is not found in the Bible.

    Do you even know how Bible came into existence?

    As for the quotes,

    All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit (Matthew 28:19)。

    May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all (2 Corinthians 13:14).

    To God’s elect…who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood (1 Peter 1:1-2).

    There are more. Much more. As for the Jesus:

    我和父是一

    –约翰10:30

    Likewise, Jesus is not recorded to have said anything that can be construed as belief in Original Sin.

    That depends on the interpretation of what the Original Sin is. There are slight differences about it between, say, Catholics and the Orthodox (the later dismiss St. Augustin of Hippo’s notions and theories).

    As for the matter at hand – Romans 3:23 and Romans 5:12, 1 John iii. 8. Or are you denying that the Apostles were truly God-inspired?

    In fact, Christianity has very little to do with the teachings of Jesus the Jew, a person about whom we know very little

    “Jesus the Jew”? Really? Azokhen vey!

    Jesus never wrote anything

    Socrates didn’t wrote down anything as well. So?

    In fact, Christianity is a largely a Pauline invention with modifications to suit the needs of the Empire.

    Are you a Christian? Or are you one of those conspiracy theory minded Gnostics?

    • 回复: @CanSpeccy
    , @Veritatis
  283. woodNfish 说:

    before Protestantism cast its drab cloak of half of the faith

    Our modern world would not exist without the Protestant entry into our past. Look at Catholicism today and you see a religion that is philosophically almost as backward as islam. Catholicism fought against scientific advancement throughout its history. The only thing we can thank it for on that point is for preserving the Western libraries for us.

  284. woodNfish 说:

    The only reason islam ever held any scientific knowledge is because the Roman Empire moved east to Constantinople. Westerners were able to bring that knowledge back to the West hundreds of years later after the grip on knowledge by the Catholic Church was broken and the Renaissance began. The raghead savages have never created anything by themselves that didn’t have a Western influence in it.

  285. @Seraphim

    Jesus ‘the Jew’ is a… Jewish invention.

    LOL

  286. @Lyttenburgh

    Are you a Christian? Or are you one of those conspiracy theory minded Gnostics?

    Not being a Christian surely does not, as your question implies, mean being a “conspiracy theory-minded gnostic”, whatever that may be.

    As for being a Christian, I am not since I don’t believe in salvation by faith or that my rotting corpse could in some way be resurrected provided only that, in this life, I adopt the right beliefs (And can one really adopt beliefs, or is a belief something one has whether one wants it or not?).

    However, I don’t see religious beliefs as belonging in either the true or the false category. I see religious beliefs belonging in either the socially useful or the socially harmful category. As such I absolutely support Christianity insofar as it promotes what I view to be a good society .

    The problem for Christianity as a socially constructive institution is that, viewed literally, the story upon which it is based is nonsensical to the modern mind. Thus, Christianity will remain of no real consequence unless radically reconfigured. The miracles (most anyway) have to go, the virgin birth has to go, the idea of life eternal through the resurrection of the body has to go, probably the Resurrection itself has to go.

    Tolstoy set about such a revision with his Gospel in Brief, but he was pretty much a crackpot in religious and social matters, so that didn’t turn out too well. What’s needed is a new account of the life of Jesus that retains what is most picturesque and moving in the gospel, but which eliminates the contradictions and (to the modern mind) impossibilities.

    Surely if the SJW’s can sell Black Lives Matter to more or less intelligent people, the Church can come up with a vastly more uplifting and beneficial message for all and sundry.

    • 同意: German_reader
    • 回复: @Anon
    , @Lyttenburgh
  287. Anon • 免责声明 说:
    @CanSpeccy

    I’m sure it’s very comforting to assume that your mind and “the modern mind” are one and the same, but it seems a questionable assumption.

    Surely if the SJW’s can sell Black Lives Matter to more or less intelligent people

    Perhaps there’s a connection between thinking oneself too intelligent to accept Christianity and being in fact silly enough to accept imbecility?

    • 回复: @CanSpeccy
    , @Seraphim
  288. @Anon

    Perhaps there’s a connection between thinking oneself too intelligent to accept Christianity and being in fact silly enough to accept imbecility?

    Not bad for a put-down, Anon. But I was not referring to my own skepticism as much as that of the Western world at large. It is surely not a matter for dispute that, today, anyone who believes in miracles is considered either some kind of simple-minded dupe of a religious cult or a crackpot (I have a highly intelligent Christian friend who believes he can do miracles, but he is schizophrenic).

    Indeed, few members of the clergy seem to believe in miracles. In fact, I would say that the only rational Christians who do believe in miracles are the Christian Scientists, who take Jesus at his world and seek, through faith, to perform miracles. However, as any Christian Scientist with a broken leg is bound to admit, fixing a broken leg by faith is really, really difficult. Indeed, Jesus never fixed a a broken bone, and although he said it was possible, he never moved any mountains. So, to reiterate, under the present leadership, the continued decline of Christian faith in a scientific age is inevitable.

    I suppose one might try to bring about an end to the scientific age, but there’d almost certainly be some atheistic hold-outs who use their scientific expertise to conquer those of the unscientific faith. So I remain convinced that the Christian story needs to be reworked. There are, of course, many elements in the old story of great effectiveness that must be retained: the delightful myth of the birth in a stable (taken from older myths, obviously), and first reenacted in Church by that amazing Christian, Saint Francis; the wonderfully charismatic moments of Jesus’s ministry; the profound sayings; the parables; the love for the poor, the meek, the sick the lame; the the heart-breakingly sad death on a cross; and some of the more or less plausible cures by faith: the cure of hysterics and the possessed. There is more than enough for a profoundly effective religion. But when the church is headed by politicians like Pope Francis, Archbishop Welby and the like, it is headed for total irrelevance.

  289. Veritatis 说:
    @Lyttenburgh

    A person who can write such wordy dissertations about “the institution of Christianity” and “the Pauline invention” is an atheist about whom we can safely say: “A man who does not believe in God will not then believe in nothing. He will believe anything.”

  290. Seraphim 说:
    @Anon

    Thinking oneself too intelligent demonstrates a weakness of insight into one’s intellectual capacities, of reasoning abilities and an unwillingness to learn. It is the definition of imbecility: “an instance or point of weakness; feebleness; incapability”. They can’t see that they are imbeciles. People arrested at an infantile stage of intellectual development and social behavior. Unfortunately, this stage become consolidated and is incurable. The more that they refuse any treatment.

    • 回复: @Veritatis
    , @CanSpeccy
  291. Veritatis 说:
    @Seraphim

    Seraphim, sometimes ignorance is bliss (and I speak for myself):

    http://magister.blogautore.espresso.repubblica.it/2017/05/03/i-massoni-tifano-per-bergoglio-ma-lui-li-vede-come-la-peste/

    In the part 1 link, I read for the second time in my life the name Chrétineau-Joly.

    • 回复: @Seraphim
  292. @Seraphim

    God, if you represent the Christian church with your sneering contempt for anyone who questions the church’s ridiculous dogmas, dogmas that have nothing to do with anything that Jesus is reported to have said (except by Paul who claims to have spoken with Jesus in a hallucination — as has my schizophrenic friend), there really is no hope for Christianity.

    But to look on the bright side, it seems more than remotely possible, in fact it seems quite probably, that Veritas (such modesty in the choice of name), Seraphim (such presumption in the choice of name) and Anon (such gutlessness in the choice of name) are NWO trolls intent, like Fred, on trashing Christianity.

    • 回复: @Seraphim
  293. Seraphim 说:
    @jilles dykstra

    Old age does not necessarily bring wisdom. It is mostly the first stage in the regression to the ‘second childhood’. It is accompanied by a reduction of intellectual capacities, the more if it was helped by smoking to much pot. You read and seem to not understand what you read (if you indeed had read the Acts and not only the Baigent ‘Gospel’).

    • 回复: @CanSpeccy
  294. @Seraphim

    Interesting approach to Christian apologetics: to piss on those who raise questions about your ridiculous dogmas. Or perhaps you’d prefer simply to organize an auto da fé.

    You should pray for forgiveness for your arrogance and hope that the Lord Jesus does not come down in person to kick your ass.

    • 回复: @Seraphim
  295. Veritatis 说:

    At Unz it is better to question the argument and not the name.

    Veritatis is not the same as Veritas. That’s why they are two different words.

    Christianity is hope, you see, and it will always attract thoughtful people.

    • 回复: @CanSpeccy
  296. Seraphim 说:
    @Veritatis

    Ignorance might be sometimes bliss. Half-cooked ‘knowledge’ is a curse.

  297. Seraphim 说:
    @CanSpeccy

    Of course you can’t see how ridiculous you are. It’s a symptom of the condition.

  298. Seraphim 说:
    @CanSpeccy

    You piss against the wind. Do not wonder that some splash back on you.

    • 回复: @CanSpeccy
  299. @Veritatis

    Christianity is hope, you see, and it will always attract thoughtful people.

    Throughout most of its history, the church did not attract people, thoughtful or otherwise, rather it commanded submission and punished those who resisted.

    As for thoughtful Christians, if they thought much about their religion, the Church was liable to judge them heretics and burn them.

    I suppose that is the mentality of all churches and most of those who speak for the church. Representing supreme power, the church attracts dogmatists, power seekers, and the arrogant. Hence Jesus’s dislike for the Chief Priest, the Scribes and Pharisees.

    • 回复: @Veritatis
    , @Lyttenburgh
  300. info 说:

    Christianity rests on the supernatural. There can be no Christianity without it. What you end up with would be very much in line with an abomination.

    A corpse.

    Either Jesus truly rose from the dead or Christianity is entirely false.

    • 回复: @Seraphim
    , @CanSpeccy
  301. Veritatis 说:

    Christianity is not just a series of ideas, it is a 生活.

    “Either Jesus truly rose from the dead or Christianity is entirely false.”

    You are correct. There’s a reason we speak in the present tense: 他复活了.

  302. Seraphim 说:
    @info

    Is it not what Saint Paul, the ‘inventor of Christianity’ said?

    “13If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is worthless, and so is your faith. 15In that case, we are also exposed as false witnesses about God. For we have testified about God that He raised Christ from the dead, but He did not raise Him if in fact the dead are not raised .16For if the dead are not raised, then not even Christ has been raised. 17And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins,18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. 19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. 20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. ” (1 Corinthians, 15:13-26)

    • 回复: @CanSpeccy
  303. Veritatis 说:
    @CanSpeccy

    You are not clear in your terms and your ideas are not solid.

    Christianity and church are not the same, that is why they are different words. I would not put all world organized religion in the same basket (“all churches”), and when talking about Christianity would distinguish between Catholic, Protestant and Orthodox, it would help with the historic part. No Christian Church represents “supreme power” in this world. I have no idea which theocracy you might be referring to. Jesus Christ was quite clear in his teaching.

    For only the first 300 years, Christians were “commanded submission and punished” by the state. Those thoughtful people who chose to follow Christ had a price to pay, and did. In many parts of the world that is true today.

    As to the building of Christendom, many learned, bright men chose to enter the priesthood or become Christians. That is still true today, in our post-Christian reality, with men like Lubac, Von Balthasar, Piper, Ratzinger. Or C.S. Lewis, Tolkien, Belloc or Oscar Wilde. The river baptisms were the choice of the temporal rulers, not that I blame them. The Church evangelized.

    Throughout history, the Catholic Church had a hard time retaining a certain independence from temporal rulers, with the Vatican invaded time and again. Look at the maps that show the growth and decline in territory of the Papal States. The Vatican exists by the grace of God, (and the Lateran Treaty) because, as one of your friends said: How many divisions does the Pope have? Ask the Russian Orthodox how the 20th Century went for them. Ask Christians in the Middle East or China today.

    And for my church, the Catholic Church, choose your Galileo example, but remember that her fruits have also been saints and saintly men and women, incredible beauty, fairer laws of universal application and a spirit of service that produced schools, universities, hospitals and charities. A spirit of service that remains unequaled in your secular institutions, and springs forth from the teachings of that Son of God you cite but do not know, Jesus Christ.

    • 回复: @CanSpeccy
  304. @Seraphim

    Half-cooked ‘knowledge’ is a curse.

    Of course you can’t see how ridiculous you are.

    You piss against the wind.

    Are you a Christian or an anti-Christian troll. I am inclined to think the latter.

    • 回复: @Seraphim
  305. @info

    Christianity rests on the supernatural. There can be no Christianity without it. What you end up with would be very much in line with an abomination.

    A corpse.

    Either Jesus truly rose from the dead or Christianity is entirely false.

    So if Jesus did not rise from the dead, we can dismiss everything he said? Is that what you are saying?

    “Let he who is without sin cast the first stone. ”

    Oh fuggedaboutit.

    “Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar’s, unto God that which is God’s”

    Fuggedabout that crap too.

    And forget about all that other stuff about forgiving one’s enemies, about the meek inheriting the earth — ideas the Church, with all its cardinals and bishops in the fine robes, never accepted anyway.

    You exemplify the fossilized and fatuous thinking that very few intelligent well-educated persons today can accept. That is why Christianity has virtually died in the West. You can either accept that Christianity must be reconstructed, or you will have to accept that Christendom has indeed reached the end of the road.

  306. @Seraphim

    So when I say that:

    Christianity is a largely a Pauline invention

    你说:

    Now, that’s really silly.

    Then you confirm what I say by quoting St. Paul as the author of the fundamental tenets of the Catholic Church.

    No wonder Christianity seems illogical to the non-believer. It is illogical, and is upheld by its advocates only by pointing in opposite directions at the same time.

    • 回复: @Seraphim
  307. @Veritatis

    No Christian Church represents “supreme power” in this world.

    I thought God was supposed to be the “supreme power” in this world and that the Pope was his representative. But if you say so, I will acknowledge my error just as soon as you let me know why I am wrong either in considering God the “supreme power” in this world, or the Pope as God’s representative on Earth.

    Jesus Christ was quite clear in his teaching.

    Yes, except for the contradictions, and the fact that what we think we know of his teaching comes to us from authors whose identities we do not know and of whose interests we are unaware, and whose accounts of the life of Jesus were selected by mortal men from among many other often conflicting accounts.

    And for my church, … remember that her fruits have also been saints and saintly men and women, incredible beauty, fairer laws of universal application and a spirit of service that produced schools, universities, hospitals and charities.

    No one disputes that the Christian churches have been influential in many ways, some good, some bad. The question is whether the beneficial influence of the church can be maintained in the present age by politicians in palaces, people like Pope Francis, and Arcbishop Welby, their authority based upon an unbelievable narrative.

    至于

    the Son of God you cite but do not know, Jesus Christ

    do you, does the Roman Catholic Church in its colossal arrogance, really know him? Many, as you are aware, say no.

  308. Seraphim 说:
    @CanSpeccy

    @Are you a Christian or an anti-Christian troll

    So much for your ‘logic’.

    • 回复: @CanSpeccy
  309. Seraphim 说:
    @CanSpeccy

    You do not think logically. Logic was for long eliminated from the curriculum of the schools you attended (if any after primary). The habit of thinking critically is lost on you.

    • 回复: @CanSpeccy
  310. @Seraphim

    More “Christian” hate! You really are amazing unless your aim is not to defend Christianity but to incite revulsion toward those who avow it.

  311. @Seraphim

    So much for your ‘logic’.

    The logic may have been implicit, but it seemed to me to be reasonably obvious. But since you don’t get it, let me spell it out. Your arrogance and general nastiness, seem so damaging to the cause of Christianity to which you appear to be attached that one has to wonder whether you intention is, in fact, to incite revulsion for Christianity.

    • 回复: @Seraphim
  312. Seraphim 说:
    @CanSpeccy

    @incite revulsion for Christianity

    More humorless ‘logic’. What I am trying to do (without much success, apparently) is to recommend people that, when they judge Christianity for falsehood, one cannot be prosecutor and judge at the same time. It is imperatively necessary to really know what the Christians really said say and not what you suppose they must have said.

    • 回复: @CanSpeccy
  313. Corvinus 说:
    @CanSpeccy

    “do you think that the Islamification of Europe is a good thing?”

    Things change. It depends on the eye of the beholder regarding it if is “good” or “bad”.

    • 回复: @CanSpeccy
    , @Vires
  314. @Corvinus

    It depends on the eye of the beholder …

    Three days and then mere prevarication.

    LOL

  315. @Seraphim

    What I am trying to do (without much success, apparently) is to recommend people that, when they judge Christianity for falsehood, one cannot be prosecutor and judge at the same time. It is imperatively necessary to really know what the Christians really said say and not what you suppose they must have said.

    That’s interesting. Until now it seemed pretty clear you’re only intention was to convince me that I am an ignoramus and an imbecile.

    But what really irks you, I now suspect, is not my ignorance and imbecility, which are forgivable defects, but my assertion that the Christianity of the Churches, Roman, Anglican, or Orthodox, which bases its claim to truth on miracles, is no longer viable in a scientific age. Thus, as Dostoevsky’s Grand Inquisitor explained to Jesus:

    Thou didst not know that when man rejects miracle he rejects God too; for man seeks not so much God as the miraculous. And as man cannot bear to be without the miraculous, he will create new miracles of his own for himself, and will worship deeds of sorcery and witchcraft, though he might be a hundred times over a rebel, heretic and infidel.

    The Churches corrected Jesus’s error by their insistence on the reality of the Virgin Birth, the Resurrection, and the transformation of bread and wine into the body and blood of Christ. Thus the scientific skeptic is the great enemy of the Church.

    But even worse than being a skeptic, I advocated a reconstruction of the Christian narrative, focused on the teaching and personality of Jesus. This is the capital offense. It is a direct attack and an intolerably intrusion on the work of the church and the offense for which the Grand Inquisitor condemned the returned Jesus to flames.

    • 回复: @utu
  316. Seraphim 说:

    Alas, if you fancy yourself as the Great Inquisitor convinced me finally that you are really an imbecile and insane on top of it.

    • 回复: @CanSpeccy
  317. @Seraphim

    Alas, if you fancy yourself as the Great Inquisitor …

    No, I was suggesting that that the role of the Grand Inquisitor was yours. But perhaps the title of Grand Vituperator would better suit you.

    • 哈哈: German_reader
  318. Alden 说:

    Whether you like it or not, Christianity is a major part of we White Europeans are.
    I didn’t read any of the comments because religious threads turn insane and I didn’t want to be my usual witchy self making rude comments about the bible thumping

  319. Alden 说:
    @Anon

    Always the obsession with black and White sex. Are you a porn movie director?

  320. Alden 说:
    @jilles dykstra

    Your country was under the North Sea in 500 AD when Roman Catholic monks settled on the western shore of the sea.

    Little by little, year by year, they built out into the sea until the Netherlands existed.

    You are such a snarky pseudo intellectual.
    I’ve seen the sex slaves ( literally) of the Albanian Muslim pimps in the Netherlands. And most of your wealth came from 400 years of vicious exploitation of Indonesia.

    FYI, Jews hate the Netherlands. Reason is that the largest percentage of dead Jews in WW2 were Durtch and Jews attribute it to collaboration of the Dutch with the Nazis.

    The Dutch Calvinists you admire so much were one of the craziest religions ever. They believed that they could be sinners all their lives but that they would go to heaven on the strength of their belief.

    • 回复: @utu
  321. Alden 说:
    @jilles dykstra

    If the crew of Columbus feared they would fall off the world they never would have signed on.

    Columbus spent a lot of time at the Catholic university of Salmonacca where the priests assured him that the earth was round and if he just kept going west he would end up in east Asia, preferably China.

    What they didn’t know of course was that the Americas were between Europe and China.

    And you believe that homosexuals who indulge in anal sex with a couple hundred infected men a year get AIDS because of the Pope.

    When every Protestant church in Europe has been turned into a mosque the Vatican will still be there and so will a Pope.

  322. Alden 说:
    @jilles dykstra

    Galileo and his Dutch telescope saw Jupiter from the Vatican observatory. It is now in the American state of Arizona.

  323. utu 说:
    @CanSpeccy

    Christianity of the Churches, Roman, Anglican, or Orthodox, which bases its claim to truth on miracles, is no longer viable in a scientific age.

    Quite the opposite. The scientific age and it beliefs are just another delusion. Another form of miracles. Dostoyevsky states this:

    And as man cannot bear to be without the miraculous, he will create new miracles of his own for himself,

    It might be you. You do not yet know what kind of BS science is so you believe in its miracle thinking that you actually know (because science is about knowing not beliefs, right?) and that it has nothing to do with beliefs.

    • 回复: @CanSpeccy
  324. utu 说:
    @Alden

    I agree with your assessment of jilles dykstra. I met some Dutch people but they never revealed themselves to me as much as him by showing how hollow their beliefs and pride in Dutchness and their Calvinism is and all what is left from it is their anti-papism. Pretty pathetic in times when they are being screwed up by Muslims.

    • 回复: @Seraphim
  325. Seraphim 说:
    @utu

    I said it already, but it is worth reminding:

    “Liever Turks dan Paaps (“Rather Turkish than Papist”), also Liever Turksch dan Paus (“Rather Turkish than Pope”), was a Dutch slogan during the Dutch Revolt of the end of the 16th century. The slogan was used by the Dutch mercenary naval forces (the “Sea Beggars”) in their fight against Catholic Spain…”
    Now they have it!

    • 回复: @utu
  326. @utu

    I don’t understand what you are disagreeing with me about.

    Of course the scientific age provides its own miracles. That’s why the Christian narrative is kaput. How can you believe in Jesus walking on water or raising the dead. Isn’t anyone, with faith, supposed to be able to do the same? Yet none do.

    Before the modern age, belief in miracles of the kind Jesus and his disciples are said to have performed could be sustained because there were no media to cover the event, no scientists to evaluate claims to the miraculous. Now we know that the Indian rope trick is a just that, a trick, that no paralytic gets up and walks away from Lourdes, and that people are not restored to life by prayer or faith.

    Meantime, science performs miracles more extraordinary by far than those attributed to Jesus. If need be, some Pentagon contractor will no doubt come up with a way for American forces to walk on water. Already they can kill millions half a world away, they can replace hearts, lungs, livers and lights, they can read your thoughts, they can even, with timely intervention, raise the dead, and soon will walk on Mars.

    So naturally, people accept the world view and ethics of those who hold the scientific purse strings, the secular authorities and great corporations. It is from them we accept our religion, a religion that is essentially no more than a by-product of the commercial system and the ambitions of the globalist elite.

    • 回复: @utu
  327. utu 说:
    @Seraphim

    Thanks. Good illustration of priorities Brits and Dutch had then. Protestantism was not really about a religious dispute.

  328. utu 说:
    @CanSpeccy

    I think, I wanted to make a point that (true) science is not in an opposition to (true) Christianity. And if there are cases that science undermines beliefs of some Christians, they clearly are not true Christians. And if some atheist believe that science actually give them arguments against Christianity they have a very simplistic (primitive) view of both science and Christianity. Being ignorant of epistemology they usually mistake their quasi religious beliefs in science for knowledge.

    What Dostoyevsky’s “And as man cannot bear to be without the miraculous, he will create new miracles of his own for himself” does really mean? You end up believing into something. You may call it science but still it is believing. It is really religious in nature. People believe in it not as the result of personal search and findings but as the result of the force of authority that usually come in form of social pressure.

    • 回复: @CanSpeccy
  329. Vires 说:
    @Corvinus

    翻译:

    I’m just an exemplary cuck, everything is relative. Pedophilia, honor killings, FGM and stoning for adultery, if made socially acceptable and properly regulated could actually be positive changes, depending on the eye of the beholder. Hell, even if my mother or daughter were to be kidnapped and hold for 20 years, getting raped every single day would be somehow a good thing, being as it is a “change” in their lives, and being changes only subjectively good or bad!

    Bravo! That is the most retarded comment I’ve come across this week.

    I suggest adding new “clown” and “fool” buttons so we can also tag some commenters properly, helping readers to avoid further retarded comments of yours.

    • 同意: CanSpeccy
    • 回复: @CanSpeccy
  330. @utu

    I think, I wanted to make a point that (true) science is not in an opposition to (true) Christianity.

    Ah, but what is “true Christianity”?!

    My point throughout this discussion, a point furiously ridiculed by Seraphim and Veritatis, is that much of what is purported by the Church (just about any church) is obvious bunk. All those tall tales — about walking on water, the turning of water into wine, the crucifixion, followed by the descent into Hell, the Resurrection and the ascent unto Heaven — these are all stories from older mythologies, and can reasonably be dismissed as ahistorical. Moreover, the fact that the power to perform miracles through faith has never been demonstrated in the modern age (except by my schizophrenic friend) confirms that the gospel accounts of Jesus’s life are largely fictional.

    These are the grounds upon which rather stupid or unscrupulous people like Richard Dawkins and the Late Christopher Hitchens have earned millions by trashing Christianity. These are the reasons why I argued that the Gospel needs to be re-constructed in a way that makes it acceptable to the modern mind.

    This does not, in my view, mean undermining “true Christianity”, rather it means disposing of the false Christianity of the Churches, based in large part on the dictates of Saint Paul, dictates that Paul justified on the basis of hallucinated interviews with Jesus. This more fundamental Christianity would focus on the personality and moral teachings of Jesus, and the scientific–religious consensus so beautifully expressed in the opening chapter of the gospel of John:

    In the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was God

    As Kurt Goedel noted, by demonstrating the conformity of the world to mathematical description, science confirms the Gospel account of the creation, the “word” or “logos” in Greek being synonymous with “reason,” mathematics being its highest form.

    Since science will surely never crack the problem of the uncaused first cause, John’s gospel will for ever be the last word on the creation. This Stephen Hawking has acknowledged with remarkable candor, saying of the “theory of everything:”

    What breathes life into the equations? Why does the world go to the trouble of existing at all?

    To that question there will surely never be any answer other than that provided by the Gospel.

    • 回复: @utu
  331. @Vires

    I suggest adding new “clown” and “fool” buttons so we can also tag some commenters properly

    In the meantime, there is a “troll” button.

  332. utu 说:
    @CanSpeccy

    There are many layers of narrative to Christianity. There is a room for miracles and walking on water. Different people need different layers. Some need miracles. Some do not need any. For Godel proving an unprovable/undecidable theorem would be a miracle I presume, though God did not feel compelled to play with Godel’s mind. But I agree with you that a focus on moral teachings of Jesus (are) should be a core of Christianity. Leo Tolstoy thought the same:

    https://www.amazon.com/Gospel-Brief-Eastern-Philosophy-Religion/dp/0486468119
    Tolstoy avoided the mystery and miracles emphasized by the Church. Instead, he worked exclusively from the actual words and actions of Jesus, uncluttered by what he regarded as the Church’s false interpretations. The result: a revolutionary work that challenged long-held doctrines, presented in a way that reflects Tolstoy’s views on the divine purpose for human existence in a chaotic world.

    Miracles do not hurt Christianity. Reliance on the Old Testament, in my opinion, is a bigger problem than miracles. One also may question St. Paul’s contributions and impact.

    我推荐托尔斯泰关于基督教的著作。

    我没有太仔细地关注你和塞拉芬的谈话,所以我错过了它爆发出如此强烈的对抗的那一刻。 起初我认为你们彼此之间的共同点比这里的评论员的其他成员更多,所以我很惊讶。

    • 回复: @CanSpeccy
  333. @CanSpeccy

    Not being a Christian surely does not, as your question implies, mean being a “conspiracy theory-minded gnostic”, whatever that may be.

    As for being a Christian, I am not since I don’t believe in salvation by faith or that my rotting corpse could in some way be resurrected provided only that, in this life, I adopt the right beliefs (And can one really adopt beliefs, or is a belief something one has whether one wants it or not?).

    Good. We established that you are not a Christian and that you have no real knowledge of what Christianity is.

    As such I absolutely support Christianity insofar as it promotes what I view to be a good society .

    As if your opinion matters – but speak on! It’s entertaining.

    However, I don’t see religious beliefs as belonging in either the true or the false category. I see religious beliefs belonging in either the socially useful or the socially harmful category. As such I absolutely support Christianity insofar as it promotes what I view to be a good society .

    Wow. Just – wow! Thanx for honesty, though.

    The problem for Christianity as a socially constructive institution is that, viewed literally, the story upon which it is based is nonsensical to the modern mind.

    That’s you beef with Sola Scripturist fanatics, aka Protestants. They are not the entirety or even the majority of Christians. Go and tell them.

    Thus, Christianity will remain of no real consequence unless radically reconfigured.

    How do you explain (mainly – Orthodox) Christian revival here in Russia? The ROC did not change the doctrine to fit the current trends. It has maintained for centuries, that the society must fit in, not the Church.

    Tolstoy set about such a revision with his Gospel in Brief, but he was pretty much a crackpot in religious and social matters, so that didn’t turn out too well. What’s needed is a new account of the life of Jesus that retains what is most picturesque and moving in the gospel, but which eliminates the contradictions and (to the modern mind) impossibilities.

    Newsflash! More conservative parishes are keeping groving in strenght (i.e. parishioners) compared to revisionist, “liberal” ones.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2017/01/04/liberal-churches-are-dying-but-conservative-churches-are-thriving/?utm_term=.e493c813c72f

    I.e. people are fine with the established doctrine. These people, btw, are more likely to have an offspring, whom they will brough up in church in the due time.

    Surely if the SJW’s can sell Black Lives Matter to more or less intelligent people

    Define “intelligent”. They are selling it to “opinionated” so far.

    • 回复: @Seraphim
  334. @CanSpeccy

    As for thoughtful Christians, if they thought much about their religion, the Church was liable to judge them heretics and burn them.

    Did they burn Thomas Aquinas? Johannes Chrysostomus?

  335. Seraphim 说:

    The miracles (signes in Greek) performed by the Christ were proofs of his divinity. The “moral teachings” of the Christ were commandments given with divine authority. There have been people who did not believe in Him, although He performed so many signs in their presence. There were cool clever boys even then. They haven’t wait until “science” would confirm how clever they were.
    Tolstoy’s “Christanity” is rubbish. He was excomunicated for his cleverness.

  336. Seraphim 说:
    @Lyttenburgh

    Tolstoy’s Gospel is absolutely similar with Jefferson’s Bible. Both were spoiled children of ‘aristocracy’ turned revolutionaries. The source of their remaking of religion is the same satanic pride in their intellectual capacities and the satanic influences of anti-Christian anarchism.

  337. 从上面可以清楚地看出,一些基督教会教义的捍卫者对非信徒就像对待社会主义敌人的斯大林主义者一样不能容忍,并且随时准备烧死那些质疑他们神奇废话的人。

    也许这就是耶稣的性格,但作为一个无知和可鄙的不相信奇迹的人,我宁愿不希望。

    无论如何,正如凯伦·阿姆斯特朗指出的那样,我相当聪明地认为,如果圣经是上帝的话语,那么它必须永远真实,但这意味着我们对圣经的解释必须随着人类知识和经验的变化而改变文明。

    托尔斯泰试图通过重写福音书,使基督教看起来不像是为俄罗斯残酷的沙皇政权和帝国主义政策辩护的一堆骗子。 但是,我认为他弄错了一些地方,例如登山宝训的含义。

    我更喜欢莫罕达斯·甘地 (Mohandas Gandi) 的观点,即将另一边脸转向欺凌者、恐怖分子或意图强奸和掠夺的入侵者是不令人钦佩的。 然而,对一个必须与他持续互动的社会成员的兄弟进行宽恕是非常有意义的。 由于耶稣是一个向犹太人传道的犹太人,在我看来,这就是他的想法。

    我可以说更多,但如果 Lyttenburgh 和 Seraphim 还没有回到天堂的第 9 圈,就足以让他们继续下去(但在这种情况下,也许 Veritatis 会用一些反无神论者的毒液来填补缺口。) .

    • 回复: @Lyttenburgh
  338. Randall 说:
    @Anonymous

    它不是在抨击阿拉伯世界。 在这些问题上,理解是至关重要的。 即:如果我说伊斯兰教既落后又厌恶女性,而伊朗目前是一个穆斯林国家,就不能推断伊朗是落后和厌恶女性的。

  339. @utu

    奇迹不会伤害基督教。 在我看来,依赖旧约是一个比奇迹更大的问题。 人们也可能会质疑圣保罗的贡献和影响。

    作为一个认为宗教是可行文明必不可少的机构的无神论者,我不反对相信奇迹的基督徒,但我观察到坚持耶稣出生、工作和死亡的奇迹性质对信仰的可信度造成的损害。在那些从小就相信科学是现实本质的终极权威的人的心目中,基督教。

    所以,是的,我看到托尔斯泰努力改写关于没有奇迹的耶稣的故事的一些优点。 然而,正如我在别处提到的,我认为他误解了宗教在社会中的作用和耶稣教义的意义。

    我们需要一个具有托尔斯泰文学天赋和弗朗西斯福山或卡罗尔奎格利社会制度理解的人来改写福音故事。 然而,在这样一个时代,教会仍然渴望焚烧那些背离既定教义的人,而且代表全球主义金钱力量的国家希望从一个独立的教会手中控制宗教,并强制执行自己的宗教信仰。以教育为幌子,通过国家强制洗脑的方式对人民实行自私的教义(又名政治正确的宗教)。

    • 回复: @Corvinus
  340. @CanSpeccy

    从上面可以清楚地看出,一些基督教会教义的捍卫者对非信徒就像对待社会主义敌人的斯大林主义者一样不能容忍,并且随时准备烧死那些质疑他们神奇废话的人。

    请提供一个报价,我呼吁人们被烧毁? 至于不宽容——是的,确实如此。 基督徒被要求不能容忍罪,而不仅仅是耸耸肩说“哦,好吧——你会怎么做?”。

    基督教是关于真理的(这里的大写“T”)。 你不会通过妥协来稀释它。

    无论如何,正如凯伦·阿姆斯特朗指出的那样,我相当聪明地认为,如果圣经是上帝的话语,那么它必须永远真实,但这意味着我们对圣经的解释必须随着人类知识和经验的变化而改变文明。

    不。我再次要求您只回答一个问题(让我们暂时忘记所有您拒绝回答的问题)。 圣经是如何产生的?

    托尔斯泰试图通过重写福音书,使基督教看起来不像是为俄罗斯残酷的沙皇政权和帝国主义政策辩护的一堆骗子。 但是,我认为他弄错了一些地方,例如登山宝训的含义。

    托尔斯泰为什么重要? 谁把他当神学家了?

    我更喜欢莫罕达斯·甘地 (Mohandas Gandi) 的观点,即将另一边脸转向欺凌者、恐怖分子或意图强奸和掠夺的入侵者是不令人钦佩的。

    无论你怎么想,基督教都不是嬉皮士之地。 基督教是残酷的诚实——是的,为了你自己灵魂的救赎,最好换个脸颊。 然而,有时你不能这样做,是的,你必须犯罪。 活在世上就是犯罪。 你必须承认这一点——并寻求悔改。 不是借口——“我只是在服从命令”或“正义战争”的天主教发明。 不。你必须完全意识到,是的,你犯罪是为了防止更大的邪恶。 你必须为此请求原谅。 没有“逃离监狱”卡这样的东西。

    我可以说更多,但如果 Lyttenburgh 和 Seraphim 还没有回到天堂的第 9 圈,就足够了

    请问——你对天堂的不同“圈子”有何看法? 你使用什么神学资料?

    • 回复: @CanSpeccy
    , @CanSpeccy
    , @CanSpeccy
  341. @Lyttenburgh

    请提供一个报价,我呼吁人们被烧毁? 至于不宽容——是的,[教会?]是的。 基督徒被要求不能容忍罪恶

    你在那里,你提供你自己的答案。 罗马天主教会认为将圣经翻译成白话文是一种罪过,因此,由于他们不能容忍罪恶,他们烧毁了负责著名的伟大的詹姆士国王圣经的翻译者威廉·廷代尔 (William Tyndale)。 显然,我没有必要背诵被教会烧死的所有其他伟大而善良的男人和女人的名单,因为这是神圣的不宽容。

    • 回复: @Lyttenburgh
    , @Seraphim
  342. @Lyttenburgh

    基督教是关于真理的(这里的大写“T”)。 你不会通过妥协来稀释它。

    是的,相信“真理”并带有大写字母“T”的人确实往往对任何不同意他们的人都极其不宽容。

  343. @Lyttenburgh

    不。我再次要求您只回答一个问题(让我们暂时忘记所有您拒绝回答的问题)。 圣经是如何产生的?

    Google说,

    根据拉比传统,除了申命记的最后八节描述他的死亡之外,摩西五经的五本书都是摩西写的。 今天,大多数学者都同意,摩西五经没有一个作者,而且它的写作经历了几个世纪。

    另一方面,我相信有些人说圣经中的大部分内容都来自更古老的神话和传说,主要来自埃及法老。 但我并没有声称已经研究过这个问题。 我只研究了圣经的内容,得出的结论是,既然主能将墙上的霉菌误认为是麻风病,他并不像某些人想象的那么聪明。 而且,从圣经中可以清楚地看出,主是一个虚荣、残忍、专横和虐待狂的怪物。 因此,我认为耶稣的上帝是一个不同的人,感谢上帝。

    • 回复: @Lyttenburgh
  344. ……是的,为了你自己灵魂的救赎,转过另一边脸更好。 然而,有时你不能这样做,是的,你必须犯罪。 ……你必须完全意识到,是的,你犯了罪是为了防止更大的邪恶。 你必须为此请求原谅。 没有“逃离监狱”卡这样的东西。

    或者正如伦道夫·丘吉尔 (Randolph Churchill) 所说的那样,“天哪,上帝不是狗屎。”

    • 回复: @Lyttenburgh
  345. @CanSpeccy

    是什么让你认为我与天主教徒有关系?

    • 回复: @CanSpeccy
  346. @CanSpeccy

    我问的是圣经。 也称为“好消息”,又名“福音派”,由克里斯蒂亚斯使用。 它是如何产生的? 旧约已经涵盖——新约是如何产生的?

    • 回复: @CanSpeccy
  347. @CanSpeccy

    接受西方人特别难,不是吗? 无论如何——你不会成为一个。 即使是农民也有成为国王的机会——而中国只知道其中的几个。 但是上帝? 哦,这一定是对你珍贵的香 均码,不会吗? 声称自己是更大、更好和无法实现的东西……这一定会让像你这样的人嫉妒、愤怒和渴望……

    想象一下,用户“CanSpeccy”。 想象一下,你(你个人)在宇宙的作品中意味着杰克狗屎。 花点时间思考一下(您个人)是多么微不足道。 你(再次——你,就像一个人)没有任何意义。 在所有。

    然后……有一个存在,并且永远比你更好、更好、更好。 那个存在确实在你周围创造了 - 没有被要求这样做。 这种存在真正重视一件事——自由和意志。 你拥有了它。 如果您缺少它,您甚至可能不知道其中的区别,但是 - 在这里。 你拥有了它。 最大的礼物。

    你也有一个终止条件。 这就是所谓的“命”。 它结束,最终。 现在,你有大约 10 – 也许 15% 的“存活率”。 毕竟——我们只是人类,不能傲慢到认为某些人无法拯救。 说到这 - 有一种治愈你的绝症的方法! 只需要信仰和工作,并按照信条的处方将您的生存率提高到,也许,高达 80%。 是的,这不是 100% - 但如果你真的想要永生,这已经足够高了,并且超过了你真正开始思考和考虑该怎么做的原始机会。 其他信条 *可能* 也为你保证——他们的机会从 20% 到 60%。 这就是你的要求——没有人强迫你。 真的。

    或者你对主上有一些个人问题吗? 你有没有把你幼稚的委屈投射在祂身上? 你是? 你这么……小气? 如此狭隘和无知? 你是?

  348. @Lyttenburgh

    是什么让你认为我与天主教徒有关系?

    事实上,我没有。 我想,也许,你是俄罗斯东正教会的成员。 如果是这样,很抱歉将您个人归咎于丁代尔的处决——我只是认为您只是基督教会的成员,基督教会,作为一个集体,相当不宽容。

    在整个讨论中,我的观点是,教会作为维护文明的机构,有其功能,而履行该功能应优先于坚持教条。 正是对基于令人难以置信的历史主张的教条的坚持,在很大程度上破坏了基督教会的信誉,并允许国家接管教会的职能,并强加自己的政治正确、共产主义、国家社会主义、绿色主义、或者任何适合目前碰巧掌权的骗子的东西。 这种发展导致了俄罗斯共产主义文明、意大利法西斯文明、德国纳粹文明,当然还有英美政治正确文明的相继消亡。 最终的结果很可能是世界的伊斯兰化,因为伊斯兰教使大多数公民保持无知,因此能够吞下其令人难以置信的宗教教条。

    • 回复: @Lyttenburgh
  349. @Lyttenburgh

    听着,我来这里不是为了参加宗教教义考试。 你想参加达尔文主义的考试及其对宗教在人类群体成功中的作用的影响吗?

    但是关于福音,有一件事似乎是一致的,圣经记载不是目击者的记录,被选入新约的记载是在事件发生数百年后才从许多其他记载中挑选出来的。记录,在估计(但历史上未记录)耶稣出生日期之后的 692 年,就东正教而言。

    • 回复: @Lyttenburgh
  350. Corvinus 说:
    @CanSpeccy

    “我们需要一个具有托尔斯泰文学天赋和弗朗西斯福山或卡罗尔奎格利社会制度理解的人来改写福音故事。”

    这本质上是一种宣传,破坏了您认为宗教对“可行的文明”(无论这意味着什么)至关重要的信念。

    “尽管如此,在这样一个时代,教会仍然渴望焚烧那些背离既定教义的人,而且代表全球主义金钱力量的国家希望从一个独立的教会手中控制宗教,并强制执行其宗教信仰。以教育为幌子,通过国家强制洗脑的方式,对人民制定自己的自私信条(又名政治正确的宗教)。”

    政治正确不是一种宗教,而是一种意识形态。 你如何解释你的“自私教义”? 此外,国家由人组成。 这些人让其他人负责。 也许这些领导者开发了一种反映这些人的需求和想法的教育系统。 也就是说,“国家规定的洗脑”实际上可能是那些着眼于公众利益的领导者开设的课程。

    • 回复: @CanSpeccy
  351. @CanSpeccy

    我只是认为你是基督教会的成员

    再说一遍——基督教不是蜂巢思维。 没有唯一的“基督教会”(我怀疑,你至少有一些新教背景——正是他们以这种方式解释“教会”)。

    我在整个讨论中的观点是,教会作为一个维护文明的机构

    哇。 哇! 停在这里! 教会(任何教会)在哪里声称将“维护文明”作为其明确目标?

    这种发展导致了俄罗斯共产主义文明的相继消亡。

    一开始就没有“俄罗斯共产主义文明”。 有——仍然是——俄罗斯文明。 其他人也是如此。 他们有一个“阶段”。 只有这样。

    而且你没有回答我之前的问题——尽管你说了很多反对基督教的好话,但它在俄罗斯正在复苏。 为什么?

    • 回复: @CanSpeccy
  352. @CanSpeccy

    听着,我来这里不是为了参加宗教教义考试。

    哦,移动球门柱,是吗? 如果你来反对某件事,最好先弄清楚你在争论什么。 你有没有说想法? 你求助于圣经,但你似乎对它的起源一无所知。 然而,你试图把自己伪装成一个消息灵通的人,一个真正能判断他所谈论的事情的人。

    那么——你会回答我的问题吗?

    但是关于福音,有一件事似乎是一致的,圣经记载不是目击者的记录,被选入新约的记载是在事件发生数百年后才从许多其他记载中挑选出来的。记录,在估计(但历史上未记录)耶稣出生日期之后的 692 年,就东正教而言。

    692年? 比如——你现在抽什么烟?

    至少你承认一件事——选择了构成圣经的一些记载(福音书和书籍)。 下一个问题——他们为什么被选中以及如何被选中? 回答这个问题是我的苏格拉底式方法,它会引导您,用户 CanSpeccy,达到某种目的——这将是您的全部。

    • 回复: @CanSpeccy
    , @CanSpeccy
  353. Seraphim 说:
    @CanSpeccy

    那些关心研究历史而不是粗俗化小册子和 YouTube 视频的人都知道,廷代尔被烧毁不是因为他将《圣经》翻译成白话英语,而是因为他在未经授权的翻译中引入了异端思想)。 甚至在威克里夫之前就有大量的白话授权翻译。 KJV 实际上是对所有先前翻译(包括 Tyndale 的)的修订。

    • 回复: @CanSpeccy
  354. @Lyttenburgh

    没有唯一的“基督教会”

    我从来没有说过有。 你的问题,不是我的。

    教会(任何教会)在哪里声称将“维护文明”作为其明确目标?

    我相信没有人会这样做——提出这样的要求会削弱教会的有效性。 这并没有改变这样一个事实,即文明的兴衰取决于其制度促进或不促进有助于内部和谐、富有成效的合作以及抵御竞争对手的意愿和能力的行为。 在这一决定中,宗教起着至关重要的作用。 没有宗教,任何社会都无法存在。 在摧毁基督教之后,西方开始接受政治正确,这是一种似乎旨在摧毁那些采用它的人的道德体系。

    一开始就没有“俄罗斯共产主义文明”

    我知道有些人可能不希望用文明一词来尊重苏联制度及其强加给那些受其影响的人的文化。 但很明显,苏联的社会、文化和生活方式构成了文明。

    而且你没有回答我之前的问题——尽管你说了很多反对基督教的好话,但它在俄罗斯正在复苏。 为什么?

    你听起来像是有 OGPU 或沙皇秘密警察背景的人。 我为什么要回答你的问题? 至于那个特定的问题,我不知道。 人们可能会猜测,但我声称对当今的俄罗斯社会一无所知。 如果让我猜,我会说回到过去是大多数在共产党统治下受苦受难的人,即几乎所有人,唯一的想法。 如果不是特别明智的反应,那至少也是一种自然反应。 在适当的时候,反应的倾向可能会消退。 在共产主义革命之前,对教会有很多敌意,不仅是那些东正教希望压制其宗教的人,还有像托尔斯泰这样认为东正教只是沙皇极权主义、军国主义和蒙昧主义工具的人。 今天,俄罗斯第五位专栏作家显然正在激起对东正教的敌意,他们必须希望通过宣扬酷儿、暴动和我们这些垂死的西方人所享有的所有其他奇妙自由来破坏教会。

    • 回复: @Lyttenburgh
  355. @Lyttenburgh

    回答这个问题是我的苏格拉底式方法,它引导您,用户 CanSpeccy,达到某种目的

    没关系,谢谢。 你可以让你自己闭嘴 [原文如此]。

  356. @Corvinus

    这本质上是一种宣传,破坏了您认为宗教对“可行的文明”(无论这意味着什么)至关重要的信念。

    与那些发现连简单概念都无法掌握的人交谈是很困难的。 一个可行的文明是在与其他文明的冲突中幸存下来的文明。 所有文明都可能消亡,但有些文明比其他文明活得更久,并且在其可行阶段传播得更远。 西方文明是世界上已知的最强大、最广泛的文明,在 1914 年扩展到世界人口的 80% 左右。 就其功能而言,宗教是否是您所谓的宣传是无关紧要的。 当代西方的宗教,政治正确,已经通过宣传传播,但这并不能改变它是一种宗教的事实,也就是说,一种为陌生人之间的社会交往提供基础的伦理体系,而不是由许多成员组成的复杂社会无法运作。

    “国家规定的洗脑”实际上可能是那些着眼于公众利益的领导人开设的课程。

    在某种程度上,这无疑是正确的。 但它是国家,我按州包括所有控制国家的行为者,即在西方,控制媒体、提供竞选资金并为屈从的政客带来回报的金钱力量,通过立法和通过与媒体协调,并通过决定总趋势的行政行动。 如果您对此有疑问,请去研究纳粹德国或苏维埃俄罗斯。

    • 回复: @CanSpeccy
    , @Corvinus
  357. @Seraphim

    那些关心在庸俗小册子和 YouTube 视频上研究历史的人都知道,等等,等等,等等

    是这样吗。 很有意思。 但事实上,我在学校学到的几乎所有东西都是从小册子上得到的(当时没有 U-Tube),它让我获得了教师奖,并在 23 岁时获得了博士学位,所以我认为实际上不是这么糟糕的学习方式。 但当然,您必须对使用的小册子有所选择。 我的意思是,如果你花全部时间浏览关于人们和一群丰满的金发女郎在热带岛屿海滩上闲逛的小册子,你就不会在考试中削减它。

    • 回复: @Seraphim
  358. @Lyttenburgh

    692年? 比如——你现在抽什么烟?

    我指的是 692 年的第二届特鲁兰议会。这是从一本非常方便的维基百科小册子中得到的。 还有什么我可以帮你的吗?

    • 回复: @Seraphim
    , @Lyttenburgh
  359. @CanSpeccy

    我应该说“在 1914 年扩大到世界人口的 80%”,因为显然印度和非洲以及大多数其他欧洲主导地区不是西方文明的一部分,尽管它们受到重要的影响西方化的影响——例如,印度发展基于西方科学和技术知识的教育体系,为印度当今快速发展的经济奠定了基础。

  360. Seraphim 说:
    @CanSpeccy

    什么样的“教员”为 23 岁的人在小册子后获得博士学位? 假期教育学院?

  361. Seraphim 说:
    @CanSpeccy

    它实际上是“特鲁兰议会”,或“特鲁洛议会”,因为它是在皇宫的圆顶大厅举行的(τρούλος 意为杯子或圆顶)。 它主要被称为“Quinisext”(Concilium Quinisextum,Πενθέκτη Σύνοδος,Penthékti Sýnodos),即第五至第六届议会。 大公会议不仅认可已经举行的六次大公会议(教规 1),还认可使徒教规、老底嘉会议、迦太基第三届会议和 39 年亚他那修的第 367 节节日信函(教规 2),即被称为亚他那修的圣经经典。

    • 回复: @CanSpeccy
  362. Corvinus 说:
    @CanSpeccy

    “一个可行的文明是在与其他文明的冲突中幸存下来的文明。”

    不,一种可行的文明是一种能够在特定领域取得成功、进步或进步的文明,例如治理体系、复杂的宗教和工作专业化。 您定义了文明冲突——可能导致领土、贸易或资源争端的相互竞争的文明。 如果两个文明之间发生战争,一个群体可能会占据另一个群体的主导地位。 事实上,人们理解最基本的概念是一个挑战。

    “西方文明是世界上已知的最强大、最广泛的文明,在 1914 年扩展到世界人口的 80% 左右。”

    西方文明是一个广义的概念,它是希腊、罗马、犹太、日耳曼和斯拉夫遗产相结合,以及罗马天主教会影响的结果。 可以合理地得出结论,英国是传播西方文明的最强大力量。 没有这些群体的个人贡献,西方文明显然无法实现。 现在,西方文明无疑是自 1492 年以来世界上最具现代影响力的文明。美索不达米亚文明、印度河文明和黄河文明如何在世界历史的某些时刻同样强大和广泛,可以提出合理的论点。

    “当代西方的宗教,政治正确,已经通过宣传传播,但这并不能改变它是一种宗教的事实,也就是说,一种为陌生人之间的社会交往提供基础的伦理体系,以及没有它,由许多成员组成的复杂社会就无法运作。”

    您的分类错误。 宗教是指信仰和崇拜超人的控制力量,尤其是个人的上帝或众神。 当然,一个人可以虔诚地,以一贯和认真的规律,拥抱政治正确。 但政治正确绝对不符合宗教的定义,也不符合其组成部分。

    https://sites.google.com/a/dow.catholic.edu.au/10-religion/home/ancient-indigenous/components-of-religion

    “但它是国家,我按国家包括所有控制国家的行为者......”

    控制国家的行为者是该特定地区的公民,他们可能来自其社会的特定部分。 人们普遍认为,精英、犹太人和特殊利益集团已经登上高层,控制了一个国家的政治进程。 然而,归根结底,还是要由公民来想办法扩大自己的权威或限制这些团体的影响。

    • 回复: @CanSpeccy
  363. @CanSpeccy

    我从来没有说过有。 你的问题,不是我的。

    但之前你说过:

    我只是认为你是基督教会的成员

    我相信没有人会这样做——提出这样的要求会削弱教会的有效性。

    但早些时候你声称:

    我在整个讨论中的观点是,教会作为一个维护文明的机构

    回溯太难也太无效了。

    在摧毁基督教之后,西方开始接受政治正确,这是一种似乎旨在摧毁那些采用它的人的道德体系。

    你只是部分地在这里。 西方确实采用了一些假肢而不是宗教。 它首先伴随着以新教教派形式出现的大量不同数量的“个人耶稣”。 后来它甚至逃避了这一点,而是选择了叙事。

    假新闻只是一种宗教假体。 人们虔诚地相信媒体告诉他们的任何事情,只要他们认为这符合他们的口味。 他们不再需要证据来相信任何事情——无论是“俄罗斯黑客”还是“受苦的车臣同性恋”。 从字面上看,您可以将上帝之母的图标替换为打印机制作的皮卡丘图片,他们会崇敬它。

    政治正确只是一种时尚,Alt-Right 也是一种时尚。 两者只是同一症状的极端对立面,同样是人们不再愿意接受永恒的、传统的和外在的事物为真理的悲惨案例。

    但很明显,苏联的社会、文化和生活方式构成了文明。

    不,你把它倒过来了。 所有这些都是文明的结果。 它们是产品,而不是产生它的文明的定义特征。

    你听起来像是有 OGPU 或沙皇秘密警察背景的人。

    不,我是历史学家。 我和各种警察, 西洛维克等等,都是不信任的家伙,他们处理事实,永远怀疑和质疑。 顺便说一句,这种思维方式让我对假新闻的洪流更加免疫,你们西方人如此高兴地投降了。

    如果我猜的话,我会说回到过去是大多数在共产党统治下受苦受难的人,即几乎所有人的唯一想法。

    你错了。 你看——人们没有在共产党统治下受苦。 大多数时候,人们怀念那个时代,然而,他们来到了教会。

    不过,你承认自己的无知并没有阻止你做出很多笼统的概括。 还是你说的西方中心主义? 相信我 - 有一个超越西方的世界。

  364. @CanSpeccy

    我指的是 692 年的第二届特鲁兰议会。这是从一本非常方便的维基百科小册子中得到的。 还有什么我可以帮你的吗?

    [...]

    所以这是你的版本?

    啊好吧。

    下一个问题——在圣经编纂之前有基督徒吗?

  365. 下一个问题——在圣经编纂之前有基督徒吗?

    你的傲慢令人震惊。

  366. @Corvinus

    一种可行的文明是一种能够在特定领域取得成功、进步或进步的文明,例如治理体系、复杂的宗教和工作专业化。

    你完全倒退了。 决定生存能力的是机构。

    宗教是指信仰和崇拜超人的控制力量,尤其是个人的上帝或众神。

    那是你的定义,但不是我的,也不是社会进化的敏锐学生如何看待它(参见 Merriam Webster; 宗教 4. “以热情和信念坚持的信念的原因、原则或体系”)。

    就社会进化而言,重要的是普遍接受的对与错的信念如何影响社会或文明的生存能力。 就其进化后果而言,这些信念是否被有关天堂和地狱以及宇宙创造者的故事所强化是无关紧要的。 因此,出于所有实际目的,有神论、多神论、祖先崇拜、神皇崇拜、伏都教、共产主义和政治正确都是宗教。 它们在改变行为方面的有效性都依赖于几乎普遍的人类将道德规则视为非常重要的倾向。 这种趋势本身就是进化的结果,表明缺乏这种道德感,从而对宗教敏感的群体,在生存斗争中被消灭了。

    然而,归根结底,要由公民找到扩大自己权威或限制这些团体影响的方法。

    这就是民主的信条。 这是个好主意。 毫无疑问,公众压力经常影响政府。 从 Tolpuddle Martyrs 时代开始形成的劳工运动的兴起就是一个很好的例子。 然而,所有社会都有精英,精英成员共同努力以保持精英的地位,同时确保通过优质教育、继承的金钱、强大的家庭和社会关系,他们的孩子成为下一代的精英。

    精英们还小心翼翼地确保普通民众在其他机构、学校以及国家控制教会的地方(如在俄罗斯)保持宗教地位。 在西方,国家控制的政治正确宗教以教育为幌子被塞进孩子的喉咙至少十几年),而 BBC 等国家宣传机构则嘲笑基督教,从而剥夺个人的现实选择为国教。

    • 回复: @Corvinus
    , @CanSpeccy
  367. @Seraphim

    它实际上是“特鲁兰议会”,或“特鲁洛议会”,因为它是在皇宫的圆顶大厅举行的(τρούλος 意为杯子或圆顶)。 它主要被称为“Quinisext”(Concilium Quinisextum,Πενθέκτη Σύνοδος,Penthékti Sýnodos),即第五至第六届议会。 大公会议不仅认可已经举行的六次大公会议(教规 1),还认可使徒教规、老底嘉会议、迦太基第三届会议和 39 年亚他那修的第 367 节节日信函(教规 2),即被称为亚他那修的圣经经典。

    哈!

    谢谢。

  368. Corvinus 说:
    @CanSpeccy

    “你完全倒退了。 决定生存能力的是机构。”

    这些机构是由一群永久定居的人以及他们管理社会的手段而创建的。 机构被创建。 随着它们变得更加复杂,生活在这些地区的人们将增加对周围环境的探索和开发。 现在,一个社会的机构可能对居住在那里的人们运作良好,因为他们对它们感到满意,或者可能不知道它们可以得到改进或提高效率。 换句话说,这些机构是可行的。 当然,与他们组织机构的方式相比,局外人可能会认为这些机构在本质上是“简单化的”; 不管怎样,这些机构对于那个“劣等”群体来说是成功的。

    “这是你的定义,但不是我的,也不是社会进化的敏锐学生如何看待它(参见梅里亚姆韦伯斯特;宗教 4。“一个因热情和信仰而坚持的信念的原因、原则或体系”)。

    定义的这一部分是特定宗教性质的信仰的重要组成部分,即上帝、圣书、仪式。

    “因此,就所有实际目的而言,有神论、多神论、祖先崇拜、神皇崇拜、伏都教、共产主义和政治正确都是宗教。”

    共产主义和政治正确植根于政治意识形态、经济思想和社会评论。 它们不同于宗教。 考虑到保守派通常将拥护共产主义和政治正确的人称为“无神论者”或“无神论者”。 此外,共产党宣言不是教条——它是政治思想和经济理想的表达。 接受共产主义并“传播它的话语”的人不能被称为“先知”,而不是像亚当斯密“传播”资本主义的“传播者”。 接受一种想法而不是另一种想法的政治领导人也不能使该想法成为一种宗教。

  369. @CanSpeccy

    并且必须记住,普通民众就像精英成员一样,主要是自私自利,通常目光短浅,但与精英不同,通常受教育程度低。 在大众民主的早期,精英,即英国贵族,希望通过他们卓越的教育和政府经验,能够领导群众。 因此,当保守党的主要成员伦道夫·丘吉尔勋爵被问及他的竞选口号“保守党民主”的含义时,他回答说:“每个人都投票给保守党的民主。” 交易是,作为对精英领导的政府的恭顺支持的回报,政府将颁布为民众利益服务的立法,同时保留统治阶级的特权。

    当工党开始赢得议会席位时,事情仍然没有出轨,因为早期的工党成员普遍爱国,思想高尚,没有革命思想。 他们的目标只是加速自由党和保守党已经开始的社会改善进程。 例如,第一位工党议员基尔·哈迪 (Kier Hardie) 是一位福音派传教士,也是禁酒联盟 (Temperance Union) 的成员。 此外,随着时间的推移,工党的领导权越来越多地落入上层阶级和贵族的手中,加上通过文法学校和牛津剑桥的智力力量崛起的平民,他们经常与之擦肩而过,并经常开始模仿世袭精英的举止。 因此,战后领袖克莱门特·阿特利是一个受过私人教育的富裕家庭的后裔。 作为一个孩子,他受到珠穆朗玛峰夫人的照顾,她曾为伦道夫丘吉尔勋爵的家人服务,担任温斯顿丘吉尔和他的兄弟约翰斯特兰奇丘吉尔的保姆。 Atlee 的继任者 Hugh Gaitskell 同样属于特权阶层。 哈罗德威尔逊在威勒尔文法学校和牛津大学耶稣学院升学,但尽管如此,他还是保持了兰开夏郡的录取,这给了他工人阶级的信誉。

    对这种普遍良性的民主制度的巨大威胁是所谓的深层国家和货币权力的兴起,它们试图将他们的傀儡置于政府和国家其他机构(包括教会、圣公会或俄罗斯东正教。 因此,托尼·布莱尔(Tony Blair)、克林顿(Clinton)和所有其他收买的政治家之类的人。 真正的掌权者因此从视野中消失,变得不负责任。 此外,有充分的理由假设他们是反爱国的全球主义者,是民族国家及其民主政府形式的破坏者,他们的最终目标是消灭越来越多的人类,被机器人取代。由人工智能指导。 换句话说,民主现在已成为隐藏精英的工具,其拥有所有强制和宣传的权力,旨在摧毁而不是为人民服务。

    • 回复: @Corvinus
  370. Corvinus 说:

    “然而,所有社会都有精英,精英成员共同努力保持精英成员的地位,同时确保通过优质教育、继承财富、强大的家庭和社会关系,他们的孩子成为下一代的精英。”

    所以? 在我看来,人们获得地位并没有本质上的错误或不道德。 而且,作为公民,他们可以自由地追求自己的议程,就像劳工团体一样,就像宗教原教旨主义者一样。 这里有竞争。

    “精英们还注意确保普通民众在其他机构、学校以及国家控制教会的地方(如在俄罗斯)保持宗教地位。”

    不,只有那些一心想醉醺醺的精英。 并非所有或大多数精英都采用这种方法将普通人置于“他们的位置”。

    “在西方,国家控制的政治正确宗教以教育为幌子被塞进孩子的喉咙至少十几年),而英国广播公司等国家宣传机构则嘲笑基督教,从而否认个人现实替代国教。”

    政治正确不是宗教。

    国家没有创造政治正确。

    西方人能够实践他们的信仰,无论是基督教、犹太教还是伊斯兰教。

    谈谈你的宣传。 您是否需要一个虚拟的棕色纸袋来进行过度换气?

    再说了,如果这些精英这么爱管闲事,这么危险,你怎么办?

  371. Corvinus 说:
    @CanSpeccy

    “在大众民主的早期,精英,即英国贵族,希望通过他们卓越的教育和政府经验,能够领导群众。”

    考虑到群众“聪明起来”,精英们希望通过他们优越的教育和在政府中的经验来领导群众。 在美国,投票的财产要求在 1820 年代被取缔,普通人成为焦点。 当然,也有出身卑微的精英,也有顾及同胞所经历的问题,在体制内努力带来改变的精英。

    “对这种普遍良性的民主制度的巨大威胁是所谓的深层国家和金钱权力的崛起,它们试图将他们的傀儡置于政府和国家其他机构(包括教会、英国国教)中的权力机构中。或俄罗斯东正教。”

    在整个人类历史中,深层国家和金钱力量一直以某种方式、形状或形式存在。 “购买”政客的服务并不是最近出现的现象。

    “真正的掌权者因此从视野中消失,变得不负责任。”

    再次,你准备做什么来阻止他们?

    “此外,有充分的理由假设他们是反爱国的全球主义者,是民族国家及其民主政府形式的破坏者,他们的最终目标是毁灭人类大众,而这越来越被人类社会所取代。由人工智能指挥的机器人。”

    我想你对星舰战队看的有点多了。 你想知道更多吗,市民?

  372. Anon • 免责声明 说:
    @Wizard of Oz

    希特勒永生会

    不存在这样的社会。

    假设这样的社会存在于 1950 年代和 60 年代,留下可以追溯到 70 年代和 80 年代的文学,最初由与希特勒关系密切的人组成,在 90 年代和 00 年代的主流文学中有所提及XNUMX 年代并因各种破坏行为而受到指责,它的信条是什么? 谁会倾向于加入?

    把这个场景具体化,并把莫斯利家族成员写的希特勒的叙述作为你唯一的生活记录。 他的生活不会在描述的那些部分中得到相当准确的表现吗?

  373. Abdī 说: • 您的网站
    @Anonymous

    并且不可能是和不是同一件事,除非由于模棱两可,就像我们称之为“人”的人,其他人将称之为“非人”一样; 但问题的关键不在于同一事物是否可以同时成为名义上的人而不是名义上的人,而是实际上是否可以。 ——亚里士多德,形而上学

    民数记 23:19 “神非人,必不致说谎;也非人子,必不致悔改; 他说过,他不去做吗? 还是他说了,他不说好呢?”

    (1 Samuel 15:29) “以色列的荣耀必不说谎,也不改变主意; 因为他不是一个应该改变主意的人。”

    约伯记 9:32 “因为他不是像我这样的人,我可以回答他,我们可以一起上法庭。”

    三位一体的概念不符合希伯来人的圣经和希腊人的逻辑——这两种东西正是希腊化的犹太人在设计基督教时非常想结合的。

    排中律和矛盾律不会破坏一神论,他们要求这样做。 他们破坏了三位一体,即等级异教。 逻辑可以被视为消极神学(上帝不是什么),而启示是积极神学(上帝是什么)。 只有当人不完美的推理能力被置于启示之上时,一神论才会受到破坏——这正是三位一体教义所做的。

    神性可以被视为“非理性”,因为不能期望仅靠人类的思想来正确地量化它,因此需要来自上层的启示。 如果我们接受未揭示的神性及其“非理性”的前提,那么一神论就比多神论少了先天的非理性。 以同样的方式,一神论比三位一体论少了非理性。 然后,如果我们接受启示神性的前提以及亚伯拉罕圣经的真实性,我们会发现一神论比多神论更真实; 同样,一神论比三位一体论更真实。 三位一体是亚理性的,而 Tawhid 是超理性的; 三位一体是圣经之外的,而 Tawhid 是圣经。

    上帝是完全超越存在的,因为上帝在任何方面都不受限制,就像/受/或上帝创造的一部分一样。 基于观察存在的创造(上帝的创造)对上帝的理解必然会被理性地诱导,然而三位一体是非理性的。 基于启示的圣经对上帝的理解是从超越存在推导出来的,但三位一体论并没有在圣经中得到启示。 虽然大多数(但不是所有)基督徒公理地接受三位一体理论是一个令人信服的悖论,但它完全是人为的,因为圣经和理性都无法解释它。 这是一种模棱两可的说法。

    天主教徒声称反对持续的启示,但他们认可“内在的说法”,并相信“圣灵”帮助了他们从撰写自己的圣经到执行梵蒂冈第二次大公会议的所有事情。 他们在一张神学空白支票的正反面都签了名。

    三位一体的基督教认为,神格是具有相同本质的“三个人”的理想形式。 这个理论为“所有潜力”打开了大门,这就是第三人论证所驳斥的。 我们可以通过诸如玛丽被称为“上帝之母”,安妮被称为“上帝的祖母”,不仅是耶稣而且是玛丽的圣母无原罪以及她的永恒童贞,新圣徒永无止境的一连串,教义的无谬。 新教徒不否认耶稣是上帝,也不否认玛丽是耶稣的母亲,但他们否认她是上帝的母亲。 因此,可以说天主教徒从一个不合逻辑的前提下合乎逻辑地运作,而新教徒则从同一个不合逻辑的前提下不合逻辑地运作。

    • 回复: @CanSpeccy
  374. @Abdī

    在一个科学时代,你所提出的这种论点的流行会毁灭基督教。 今天,受过相当广泛教育的人都不能接受类人猿是负责创造宇宙的实体的母亲,无论该实体是单一还是三重人格。 同样,宇宙的创造者在乎被一群低智商猿人称赞的想法是荒谬的。 基督教的未来,如果有的话,将不是基于对神秘和完全无用的神学辩论的理解,而是基于社会学。

    耶稣为这种宗教提供了基础。 他教导他的追随者祈祷,不是向那个无知、虚荣、虐待狂的暴君耶和华祈祷,而是向具有慈父人格的上帝祈祷。 耶稣因此将犹太人的神从一个可怕的恐怖分子和无能的恶霸转变为一个好的精神病医生。 可以与之交谈并在此过程中解决问题的人。 正如维多利亚时代的无神论者温斯顿·丘吉尔所说:“在恐惧和困惑的时候,我向上帝祈祷。 它有助于。 它有很大帮助。”

    此外,耶稣提供了对社会建设性宗教至关重要的另一个要素。 他肯定了成功社交互动的基本规则:原谅那些惹恼你的人,他们知道他们伤害了你,如果你不惩罚他们的过犯,他们会很感激,将来会更有帮助地与你合作。 而且,总的来说,要遵守十诫,像对待你的邻居一样对待你的邻居。

    这就是一个有用的宗教的全部内容。 其余的一切都是为了让主教留在宫殿中,并让全球主义代理人如教皇弗朗西斯或犹太血统的前石油高管、坎特伯雷大主教贾斯汀·韦尔比(Justin Welby)渗透教堂。

  375. Abdī 说: • 您的网站

    类人猿是负责创造宇宙的实体的母亲

  376. Abdī 说: • 您的网站
    @KenH

    但是,如果伊斯兰教是关于和平、美丽、科学和实用主义的,那么为什么欧洲的穆斯林飞地基本上是贫民窟和“禁区”,那里充斥着懒惰、宗教极端主义和暴力犯罪? 为什么大多数穆斯林国家甚至在美国外交政策破坏中东稳定之前就被部落和种族仇恨和竞争以及内战摇摇欲坠?

    主要是因为奥斯曼哈里发国崩溃了。 我知道,如果伊斯兰教如此伟大,它为什么会崩溃,对吗? 嗯,600 多年是一个相当不错的统治; 大多数穆斯林的共识是,它因放弃伊斯兰教的关键教义而失败,这些教义具有削弱作用,例如向欧洲国家银行累积高额债务——宗教明确禁止利息。

    在某种程度上,穆斯林是“sedevacantists”,因为哈里发领导的席位已经空缺了几十年。

  377. Abdī 说: • 您的网站
    @KenH

    还有你提到的那些问题:懒惰、种族仇恨、宗教渎职、暴力犯罪。 这些是人类自古以来的经典失败,好人一直在努力反对。 我更担心的是新的失败——或者,抱歉,“进步”——被大多数人所表现出来,这与你描绘的欧洲穆斯林社区的反乌托邦图画相去甚远。

    这些新的失败不是耻辱,而是骄傲,就像右翼分子现在如何在城镇的穆斯林地区组织同性恋游行一样。 我们的罪是我们的罪,但越来越多的欧洲大多数人的罪是他们的身份。 人类的简单恶习必须得到纠正,但它们或多或少必然会以一种或另一种形式出现。 伟大的道德原则是,当局和主流文化都没有正式庆祝它们,例如欧洲社会中的鸡奸。

    这种以恶为善的庆祝是对道德的彻底颠覆。 它还标志着多数身份成为伊斯兰教所拒绝的一切的大杂烩,这标志着后基督教时代的结束和反/前伊斯兰时代的开始。

    • 回复: @Anon
  378. Abdī 说: • 您的网站

    我希望看到犹太人、穆斯林、基督徒和无神论者在欧洲和平地生活。 但如果你主要关心的是阻止伊斯兰教,我建议你们像锡克教徒那样发展一种部分基于伊斯兰教的假宗教。 锡克教几乎没有被宗教专家研究过,因为它甚至没有进入似是而非的领域,因为即使在其内部它也没有具体的基础或任何一致的支柱——除了旁遮普族裔和一些泛神论和轮回以及大量引用来自他们圣书中的古兰经。

    他们的创始人 Guru Nanak 做了朝觐之类的事,做了很好的笔记。

  379. Anon • 免责声明 说:
    @Abdī

    右翼分子在城镇的穆斯林地区组织同性恋游行

    我没有听说过这种事情,但我想,毕竟那里比其他地方好。

    伟大的道德原则是当局不正式庆祝

    我能想到更大的道德原则。

    • 回复: @Seraphim
  380. Seraphim 说:
    @Anon

    @我能想到更大的道德原则。

    似乎没有人想到东正教,它是抵御伊斯兰教和本质上基于伊斯兰教(如锡克教、苏菲教)和索多玛的假宗教的盾牌,后者是无神论和(更糟糕的)不可知论的西方。 只有东正教才能复活西方“基督教”腐朽的尸体。 恐怕已经晚了,西方更热衷于反抗东正教(这就是“普京的俄罗斯”的意识形态吧?),所以不可避免地会落入“太平洋圣战”之下' 具有最高道德原则的新“哈里发国”(它向“通奸者”扔石头)。

    • 回复: @Anon
  381. 只有东正教才能复活西方“基督教”腐朽的尸体。

    我想知道那是什么意思。 特别是,为什么引用基督教? 这是暗示西方的基督教,用现在的行话来说,是假的,还是暗示任何东正教能在西方复活的都是假的?

    但无论如何,这肯定不是暗示东正教代表任何一种真正的基督教。 当族长在 a \$30,000-gold-watch-wearing 前克格勃特工, 东正教很难代表与耶稣所信奉的相同的原则,这当然不是说东正教对俄罗斯人来说是一种糟糕的宗教,而只是说它是假基督教。 然而,当人们看到只有 8% 的俄罗斯人参加基督教教堂,而美国人的这一比例为 47% 时,似乎很明显东正教在俄罗斯人的心中只有最脆弱的把握。 那么,地狱如何复活任何东西,更不用说西方基督教的尸体,无论有没有引用,都是非常令人费解的。

    • 同意: Abdī
    • 回复: @Abdī
    , @Seraphim
  382. Abdī 说: • 您的网站
    @CanSpeccy

    “哥萨克中的 Chekists”除了卢布之外没有任何储蓄。 许多这些皈依者创造了一个美国化的 EO 版本,具有超大的神秘灵性和浪漫主义。 他们对斯拉夫文化没有真正的概念,除了他们在书本上读到的或者可能在教堂里遇到的。 这些人在 1960 年代之前会成为 HighChurch Anglican 或罗马天主教徒。 但他们太清楚这些群体的问题了。 EO 直到最近才与西方接触很少,并吸引了寻求成就感的人们。 有趣的是,它甚至不是传教士的信仰。

    一个美国基督徒宣称自己是俄罗斯基督徒,这与埃及穆斯林坚持自己现在是土耳其穆斯林一样有道理。 问题甚至不是“为什么?” 而是“如何?”。

    http://d-scholarship.pitt.edu/7327/1/Slagle%2DDissertation%2DETD.pdf

    没有记忆的怀旧:美国在宾夕法尼亚州匹兹堡转变为东正教的案例研究

    Slagle, Amy (2008) “没有记忆的怀旧”:美国宾夕法尼亚州匹兹堡皈依东正教的案例研究。 博士论文,匹兹堡大学。

    “至少可以说有点有趣,因为即使在匹兹堡,你告诉人们你皈依了东正教,他们看着你——我的意思是,即使是这里的东正教也疑惑地看着你,'选择? 你选择成为东正教? 他们只是看着你,他们认为这很奇怪。

    [更多]

    ...

    当代美国人确实选择加入东正教,除了与其中一名成员结婚外,这一观念已经引起了信仰内外的人的困惑、困惑和兴趣。”

    ...

    因此,通婚皈依者普遍认为东正教在仪式和神学上与他们的家庭教会相似 “只是另一个基督教教派,”因为肯谈到他父亲对他皈依的支持,“在他看来,这不像我在皈依伊斯兰教之类的事情上跳了下去。”

    在马太福音和路加福音中,耶稣并没有说“我来只是给你们带来另一个宗派:孩子受考验,父亲认可。” 耶稣说他来是要带来分裂,而不是和平,并“使父与子相争,子与父相争”。 “皈依但不皈依”东正教的固有平庸是永恒的:

    “放下巴巴,我只是从撒都该人转变为法利赛人。 又不是跟着那个吃蝗虫的疯子,也不是跟着那个雅舒亚的,现在借你的驴子借日行吗? 我会在日落前回来,老实说。”

    在美国皈依东正教的人被视为“他们”自己宗教的游客。 有些人热衷于带他们去旅行,有些人很喜欢他们,但很欣赏他们带来的现金。


    神父马克通过组织年轻的成人郊游活动,包括参观冰淇淋店和展示流行电影的电影之夜,与他的年轻教友(主要是皈依者)进行了非正式的交往。 他还倾向于在咖啡店和餐馆而不是在他的正式办公室与教区居民会面。

    ...

    这种热情绝不是一种普遍的情绪,无论是在手头的现场还是其他教区。 最明显的例子来自神父的经历。 阿森松教堂的安德鲁,虽然现在是一名全职社会工作者,但他在年轻时就开始了他的文职生涯,先后负责他所说的两个主要是“老年教区” 两者“都会接受皈依者,只是因为它在经济上对他们意味着什么。 当被问及为什么这些社区的教友通常不向新的、以前非东正教的教会成员开放时,神父。 安德鲁坦率地推测,“我认为他们真的感到受到了[皈依]的威胁。 我认为它威胁到权力基础,让新人进来,他们在某种意义上忠于神父,而不是(某些终身教区居民的)权力基础——本身通常与神父为敌。 皈依者会被视为忠于牧师,而不是忠于他们,你知道,他们是权力基础。”

    当这些美国人皈依正统时,他们带来了寻求“大师”的美国人的想法。 牧师们不太乐意成为某些千禧一代的生活教练。


    最后,正如所有类别的人类努力一样,神父和皈依者之间建立的关系并不总是田园诗般的。 虽然在大多数情况下非常乐意为他们的皈依教友提供建议和帮助,但牧师经常评论少数少数皈依者所表现出的危险倾向,他们崇拜牧师并将他视为应该成为的“大师”推迟了他们生活中的所有重大问题...... 皈依者,如“儿童”,被视为以一种许多终身成员所不具备的方式接受牧灵影响,皈依者可以很容易地被看到,并在教区环境中成为牧师的盟友。

    教堂使用田园式的“守门员”,与希望保持其“品牌”知名度的夜总会没什么不同。

    从可用的竞争选项中取出正统,这是正统市场价值上升的标志,并通过确保皈依动机纯洁和认真的田园“守门”功能,从他们手中夺取唯一的选择控制权。 同时, 牧灵延迟或拒绝慕道者成为东正教的愿望的可能性可以作为“品牌化”东正教的有效手段,将其与渴望新成员的教会竞争者区分开来。

    皈依东正教不能容忍一丝西方偶像的存在,甚至要他们报废,即使它冒犯了真正的正统人。 那些真正的正统人士是为了民族飞地而存在的,仅此而已。


    在所有这些[东正教]教会中,人们在那里并不是因为基督或教会的教义,而是因为这是我的种族背景。 这是我父母去过的地方,这就是我一直在的地方。 原来是这样……”

    “当你看到新人进来并且他们对了解信仰感兴趣时,你开始想知道为什么有人想要离开天主教会或新教教会来到这里?”

    ...

    例如,圣迈克尔的皈依者热衷于引用他们的神学读物,经常向神父抱怨。 马克(对我来说)关于教堂内部图标的“西方”风格,并主张用更合适的东正教“东方”风格绘制的其他图标来取代它们。 然而,当教区委托并获得两个新的“东方”圣像来装饰它的圣所时,一位年长的终身教会成员把我带到一旁,带着明显的惊慌问道,关于新出现在她面前的上帝之母的陌生肖像描绘23 以她直觉、习惯性的方式理解她的信仰,这位妇女以前从未见过没有基督孩子的上帝之母,因此,她担心这个圣像在精神上是“错误的”或“被玷污”的。就像我听到转换者描述新图像周围剩余的“西方”图标一样。

    在有皈依者的社区中,东正教基督徒经常通过对种族分类法的无休止的扭曲将彼此归类来争夺社会地位。

    然而,“种族”终身教会成员对皈依者的普遍接受并没有直接转化为对教区生活中种族的否认或粉饰。 相反,一种“种族分析”,即姓氏或身体特征等外部特征作为东正教身份的标志,是教会生活的主要内容。 作为这一现象的众多被引用的一个例子,圣迈克尔教堂的莎拉回忆说,当得知她未来的丈夫是罗马天主教徒而不是东正教教徒时,她感到失望,这是她最初根据他的“非常乌克兰的姓氏”做出的假设。 。” 当然,皈依者从终身教会成员那里学到了这些“标志”和更大的种族刻板印象分类法,对他们来说,这些特征可能对教区内部和教区间的边界维护具有重要意义。 值得注意的是,这种默契的、习惯化的知识只能通过教区生活的日常经验获得——教区生活书籍没有传达这样的信息。 在我自己到达这些研究地点后,皈依者以及终生成员试图辨别我自己的“种族身份”,以表明可能是否属于东正教。 例如,我第一次去圣迈克尔的周六晚祷服务时被介绍给亚历克斯,他立即问我自己是否是东正教基督徒,并迅速补充说,“你看起来像希腊人”作为这个问题的理由。

    ...

    尤其是 Ascension 的皈依者,在阐明他们与周围“种族”社区的区别时,诉诸身体特征。 尽管玛丽同意她的丈夫弗雷德的观点,即她和她的家人在阿森松受到了热烈的欢迎,但她也表现出敏锐的意识,即他们将始终与社区保持一定的距离。 对玛丽来说,这一点被她作为教区“金发女郎之一”的感觉所强调,“我不觉得被排斥,但同时我也不期望我在这里是一个真正的希腊人。 我知道我不是。 我知道我是金发女郎,我不适合,这没关系……我们已经很好地融入了社区。 我觉得我们在某种程度上是这样,也许这是我的偏执狂,但我想我知道我是金发女郎之一。”

    “困难? 嗯,好吧,我想我唯一能想到的,也许是早期[短暂的停顿],我想当我从圣餐回来,望着希腊面孔的海洋时,我想,‘哦,我的天哪,我在这里做什么? [她笑着说]但这些都是暂时的,当我和个别的人交谈时,一切都还好。”

  383. Seraphim 说:
    @CanSpeccy

    是的,西方的“基督教”是假的(伪),因为它封闭了生命、真理和圣洁的原则,即圣灵。 罗马天主教的“基督教”是假的。 新教“基督教”是最大的假货(海因里希·海涅(Heinrich Heine)称之为“吃猪肉的犹太教”)。 你的“真正的”基督教(不管那意味着什么)是假的。
    东正教是基督的教会,因为是什么造就了教会,即基督所差来的圣灵,仍然在其中工作,无论在俄罗斯或其他地方参加礼拜的人数有多少,或者牧首戴着金表(犹大的论点),甚至它是像俄罗斯人和其他开明的欧美边缘的低等人(当然是白人)这样的低等人的宗教。 此外,东正教不仅限于俄罗斯。 美国没有教会(东正教除外,那是因为它不是“美国的”)。 其余的是“集会”(会堂),人们相信他们是基督徒,因为他们学习“圣经”并“邀请基督进入他们的生活”。

    • 回复: @Veritatis
    , @CanSpeccy
  384. Veritatis 说:
    @Seraphim

    “东正教是基督的教会,因为无论在俄罗斯有多少人参加礼拜,基督所派遣的圣灵仍然在教会中工作。”

    天主教不也是这样吗? 基督教是一种生活,生活在社区中,是一个教会。 虽然也许天主教会(被理解为神职人员和平信徒)比通常的人数少——这很好——,但有足够多的天主教徒(神职人员和平信徒)真诚地尝试向基督奉命。 圣灵工作得很好。

    • 回复: @CanSpeccy
    , @Seraphim
  385. Anon • 免责声明 说:
    @Seraphim

    嗯,这是一个有效的意见。 您如何看待索洛维约夫(Соловьёв)?

    • 回复: @Seraphim
  386. @Seraphim

    不管……族长戴金表(犹大的论点)

    Well if the Patriarch’s watch is supposed to remind us of the glory of Heaven, why does he wear a crap Breguet, worth a mere \$30,000, when he could have a 219 karat diamond ornamented Chopard for \$26 mils?

    甚至它是像俄罗斯人这样的低等人的宗教

    不知道俄罗斯人是劣等民族。 他们在哪些方面低人一等? 和谁比谁?

  387. @Veritatis

    基督教是一种生活,生活在社区中,是一个教会。

    所以你也拒绝吃猪的刺激物。 就像在教堂墙外。 但耶稣没有说

    因为有两三个人奉我的名聚集在一起,我就在他们中间。

    • 回复: @Seraphim
  388. Abdī 说: • 您的网站

    哎呀。 现在那是一座只有“圣母玛利亚”才会喜欢的大教堂。

  389. Seraphim 说:
    @Veritatis

    “天主教”在教义和实践上都逐渐偏离了普世(Katholike)教会的真理。 介绍 Filioque(将圣灵降为受造物的地位)和教皇至高无上(作为圣灵的唯一分配者)的特殊教条,它来自教父们的共同共识,体现在圣灵的启发决定确认所有继任者所遵守的使徒传统的大公会议。
    教皇们将自己置于分裂之中,中断了与普世教会在圣灵中的共融。 此外,他们改变了传递圣灵的奥秘(圣礼)的形式,从洗礼的入会仪式(三浸)、圣礼和圣餐开始。 由于直接无视基督的命令,圣体圣事的形式发生了变化,情况进一步恶化。 天主教徒压制了“epiclesis”,即神父的祈祷,即圣灵降临在基督徒带到祭坛上的面包和酒上,将他们转化为基督的身体和血液。 他们实际上用犹太无酵饼代替了面包(“如果任何主教、长老或执事,或神职人员名单中的任何一位,与犹太人一起斋戒或过节,或从他们那里接受任何节日礼物,作为无酵饼,任何这样的事情,让他被废黜”使徒佳能 LXX)。
    所以,我们看到圣灵并没有“很好”(如果有的话)。 这并不是说按照他的决定工作的圣灵会彻底抛弃那些真诚渴望他的人(“所以我让你明白,没有人靠着上帝的灵说话,称耶稣是受诅咒的:没有人能说耶稣是主,但借着圣灵。4 现在有不同的恩赐,但同一个灵。5 也有不同的行政,但同一个主。6 有不同的运作,但它是是同一个神,在万有工作。7 但圣灵的显现,赐给每一个人,使人得益处。8 因为圣灵将智慧的言语赐给一个人;同一个圣灵,知识的言语赐给另一个人; 9 因同一灵而有另一种信仰;因同一灵而得医治的恩赐;方言:10 但是这一切都起作用, 一位和同一位圣灵,按各人的意思分给各人”(哥林多前书 11:1-12)。
    它通过西方仍然拥有的圣人的遗物和他们为人民的祈祷而发挥作用。 并通过天主之母的祈祷。 但是,当教会的共融恢复时,圣灵将充分发挥作用。 直到 RC 回到大公会议的信仰(即正统,使徒的真正传统),吞下她的骄傲,放弃她的错误和悔改(metanoia – 改变主意),这是不可能的。 它需要一个教育过程。

    • 回复: @Veritatis
  390. Seraphim 说:
    @CanSpeccy

    “18 我实在告诉你们,你们在地上所捆绑的,在天上也要捆绑;你们在地上所释放的,在天上也要释放。 19我再告诉你们,如果你们两个人在地上就他们要问的任何事情达成一致,那我在天上的父就会为他们成就。 20 因为有两三个人奉我的名聚集,我就在他们中间”(马太福音 18:18-20)。
    耶稣对使徒说话。 那就是在教会里。

    • 回复: @CanSpeccy
  391. @Seraphim

    耶稣对使徒说话。 那就是在教会里。

    原来如此。 因此,耶稣对使徒们的信息的意义,一群头脑简单的文盲,只能通过教皇,族长和大主教穿着亮片连衣裙和镶钻背心的解释性扭曲才能理解,他们都戴着金表,住在宫殿里,他们的发现被神父和宣传员告知了当今的众多傻瓜,他们蔑视那些与他们对宇宙创造者的话的确切含义的解释有丝毫偏差的人。

    • 同意: Abdī
    • 回复: @Seraphim
  392. Seraphim 说:
    @CanSpeccy

    嗯,当然,不能相信傻瓜和文盲(以及精神错乱的人)的判断。 尤其是当他们表现出他们不知道他们在说什么时。 他们的判断力因头脑简单和文盲而受到损害。 生病时,人们会去请有执照的医生进行诊断和治疗(即使他开的车比你的贵),不要相信自己的判断或无所不知的 DIY 类型。 但是当然有很多傻瓜和半文盲认为他们可以自我诊断和自我治疗,对自己弊大于利。

    • 回复: @CanSpeccy
  393. @Seraphim

    我认为对你上一条评论的回应很有趣。 但我已将其搁置一旁,希望我们可以结束讨论,如果不能达成一致,至少可以友好地结束。 晚安,向你和其他任何阅读我认为是这条线索的绝对结尾的人致以最良好的祝愿,他们真诚地努力理解他们的道德责任和他们在宇宙中的位置。

    • 回复: @Seraphim
  394. Seraphim 说:
    @CanSpeccy

    你得到了很好的建议。 我们之间的'讨论'早就结束了。 你一直干涉我和别人的讨论。 我的回答并不是真正针对您的。
    晚安。

  395. Veritatis 说:
    @Seraphim

    一个非常有学问的回答。 当我读到它时,我记得分裂的“东方”方面给出了一个以神学争议为驱动因素的版本,不仅包括Filioque条款,还包括礼仪元素和常见的基督教习俗。 虽然分裂的“拉丁”一方认为这是出于政治考虑,可以追溯到查理曼大帝的加冕,包括神圣罗马帝国的诞生、有争议的君士坦丁堡见、君士坦丁堡的麻袋以及以教皇-牧首逐出教会结束. 我确实相信破裂是由双方相当暂时的动机造成的,这通常是男人的行为方式。

    我也相信天主教会有两个很好的宣称是基督的教会:一,圣彼得的不间断继承,二,它奇迹般地设法保持独立于世俗统治者的事实。 我并不是说它是唯一一个男人可以像基督徒一样生活的教堂,正如你亲切地指出的那样,我更不能猜测上帝的旨意,但我认为当与问题“他想要/他想要什么教会?”。 我不会向你引用圣经,但会提到我曾经得到一本新教圣经的恩赐,但很方便地忘记包括“......我将在这块岩石上建造我的教堂和地狱之门......”那是,当然,理智上的争论,我只能补充说,我的天主教礼仪经历——口吃的牧师或方言——有一种光、一种情感、一种快乐,只能来自上面。

    我不希望在无神论者 Unz 的评论部分解决这种分裂,但我发现我们已经跨越了道路,这很有趣。 我特别喜欢你提到(打电话?)metanoia。 这个概念让我很感兴趣,这个基本的基督教行为,这个背离自己,这个对另一个人说“是”,一点一点地,盲目但被引导,最终等于一个改变一个人整个生活的过程,为什么不,影响生活完全。 你怎么认为?

  396. Seraphim 说:

    我很高兴我的话没有全部落在小径上、岩石上或荆棘中(这个特定主题的评论部分就是这样)。 我希望它是在“好的土壤上,在那里它可以产生庄稼——是播种的一百、六十或三十倍”。

    梅塔诺亚。 是的,必须从“强烈”的意义上来理解它。 拉丁教父将 metanoia 翻译为paenitentia,意思是“忏悔”或“忏悔的行为”。 特图良抗议将希腊语“metanoeo”不恰当地翻译成拉丁语“paenitentiam agite”,认为“在希腊语中,metanoia 不是认罪,而是思想的改变”。 “皈依”(来自拉丁语“conversio”——转身)具有“性格改变”的意思,更接近于metanoia而不是悔改。 认罪和承诺不再犯罪,当然是“改变心意”的条件。 现在,新约希腊语ἁμαρτία hamartia“罪”的原始含义是失败、错误、失准,尤其是在投掷长矛时; 希伯来语 hata “sin” 起源于射箭,字面意思是错过了目标中心的“黄金”,但击中了目标,即错误。

    “当那些日子,施洗约翰来了,在犹太的旷野传道,2 说,你们应当悔改,因为天国近了。 3 因为先知以赛亚所说的就是这人,说:“有人在旷野呼喊,你们要预备主的道路,修直他的路” 4 这位约翰穿着骆驼毛的衣服, 腰间系着一条皮革腰带; 他的肉是蝗虫和野蜜。 5 就出去见耶路撒冷和犹太全地,和约但河一带的地方, 6 在约但河受了他的洗,承认了他们的罪。 7但是当他看到许多法利赛人和撒都该人来接受他的洗礼时,就对他们说,毒蛇的世代啊,谁警告你们要逃避将来的忿怒呢? 8 因此结出果子迎接悔改: 9 不要以为自己心里说,我们有亚伯拉罕归于我们的父亲:因为我告诉你们,神能够从这些石头中为亚伯拉罕兴起子孙。 10现在斧子也已经放在树根上:所以凡不结好果子的树都被砍下来,扔进火里。 11 我的确用水给你们施洗,叫你们悔改。 但在我之后的人比我更强大,我不配承担他的鞋子:他要用圣灵和火给你施洗:12他手里拿着扇子,他会彻底净化他的地板,把他的麦子收进仓里; 但他要用不灭的火烧尽谷壳。 13 那时耶稣从加利利到约旦河见约翰,要受他的洗。 14 约翰却禁止他说,我必须受你的洗,你到我这里来吗? 15 耶稣回答他说,现在就这样吧,因为我们理当如此尽诸般的义。 然后他就受苦了。 16 耶稣受了洗,立刻从水里上来,天为他开了,他看见神的灵好像鸽子降下,光照在他身上:17 有声音从天上说,这是我的爱子,我所喜悦的”(马太福音 3:1-17)。

    “耶稣基督(εὐαγγελίου Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ – 耶稣基督的福音)福音的开端,是上帝的儿子; 2 正如先知书上所写,看哪,我差遣我的使者在你面前,在你面前预备你的道路。 3 旷野中有人呼喊:“你们要预备主的道路,修直他的路”。 4 约翰确实在旷野施洗,并宣讲悔改的洗礼 (βάπτισμα μετανοίας),使罪得赦。 5 犹太全地和耶路撒冷的人都出来到他那里去,都在约旦河里受了他的洗,承认了他们的罪”(马可福音 1:1-5)。

    洗礼“纠正”了亚当的“罪”,他的“工资就是死亡”,使人能够重新开始他的旅程,到达最终目标,即“神的国度”,并成为“靠恩典成为神”,正如他的本意创造者。 当然,指导仍然是绝对必要的,但你只能在教会中找到。 'Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus'。

  397. Veritatis 说:

    六翼天使,

    4 约翰确实在旷野施洗,并宣讲悔改的洗礼 (βάπτισμα μετανοίας),使罪得赦。 5 犹太全地和耶路撒冷的人都出来到他那里去,都在约旦河里受了他的洗,承认了他们的罪”(马可福音 1:1-5)。

    谢谢! 我现在可以准确地放置圣经的metanoia! 我只读过西班牙语(母语)圣经,在耶路撒冷版中,我经常不喜欢其他人。 但是你的英文我觉得很漂亮,会是哪个版本?

    PS你可能不喜欢这个,但另一个像你一样写作的人(我读过的)是..教皇。 简短的没有魅力的德国人。 他用 metanoia 做了一个非常相似的练习(我去检查了!),没有引用 Tertullian(但加入了老尼采的观点,因为罪是犹太人的发明)然后深入研究“强烈的感觉”和对罪的宽恕. 你对圣经的引用使我以不同的方式领会了信条。 我喜欢搜索一个词的词根和相关概念以找到它的真正轮廓,以“理解”。

    愿我们的道路经常交叉。 在基督里,Y.

    • 回复: @Seraphim
    , @Seraphim
  398. Seraphim 说:
    @Veritatis

    我比你想象的更高兴,我确实希望我们的道路可以再次交叉。
    我使用的“圣经”应该更准确地称为“圣经”(tas graphas),最传统的,希腊的,旧约的七十士译本和东正教使用的拜占庭文本(基础对于所有其他白话翻译 - 主要是斯拉夫语)。 旧约的所有其他译本均由所谓的希伯来马所拉文本制成,该文本是七十士译本和死海古卷所记载的希伯来语经卷的晚期腐败。 尤其令人困惑的是国王詹姆斯版本,它在马所拉之后翻译了旧约,而在拜占庭之后翻译了新约。 拜占庭文本中旧约的所有引文都与七十士译本的文本完全匹配,但与马所拉的文本(尤其是预言基督的段落)有很大的不同。

    您可以在@http://www.ellopos.net/elpenor/greek-texts/septuagint/default.asp 找到它们
    它是一个更大的网站的一部分,致力于“希腊语”:
    @http://www.ellopos.net/elpenor/default.asp
    “ELPENOR 是围绕希腊文学所有时期的双语选集建立的,包括荷马、抒情诗人、前苏格拉底哲学家、柏拉图、亚里士多德、悲剧和喜剧、拜占庭教父、现代希腊诗人、新约、希腊旧约(七十士译本) ),一个关于基督的网站,另一个关于阿索斯圣山的网站,甚至还有不断增长的励志名言集。
    语言页面提供免费的古希腊语课程,从希腊字母开始,继续荷马,结合语法和句法,试图了解文本和语言本身对我们今天生活的价值。
    对这些的补充还有两个图书馆,关于我们如何看待我们的希腊自我,以及我们可以在网上找到的关于希腊语、历史、地点、文本的内容,包括关于君士坦丁堡的特别部分,以及带有基督东正教圣像的画廊,关于基督教和童年的现代希腊绘画,达夫尼修道院的马赛克,来自希腊的照片,甚至是一个摄影博客。
    ELPENOR'S 论坛名为 Koinonia,是一个提问和讨论诸如口译、说希腊语、欧盟、新希腊主义、基督之前的希腊、新闻和公告等主题的地方。”

    一个新的理解世界将为你打开。

    在基督里
    S.

  399. Seraphim 说:
    @Anon

    索洛维约夫并不是一个完全理智的人。 他是一个加密犹太人,死前背诵“Schema Israel”。 他的“哲学”深受卡巴拉影响。 1880 年,他被称为沙皇俄国犹太公民权利的主要捍卫者。犹太人在死后授予索洛维约夫“正义的外邦人”的称号,因为他努力调和犹太教和基督教,并说服世俗当局尊重良心和宗教自由。承载着预言的活力。 此外,他还是教皇至上主义和俄罗斯皈依天主教的倡导者。 他关于“索菲亚”的教义被认为是与希伯来语 Shekinah 或各种女神传统相媲美的上帝慈悲统一的女性智慧,被俄罗斯境外的俄罗斯东正教教会严厉谴责为异端邪说,并被莫斯科宗主教区谴责为不健全和不正统。

  400. Seraphim 说:
    @Veritatis

    我想补充一点,“metanoia”也意味着“改变主意”。 心分别是“νοῦς”或“νόος”以及拉丁语“intellectus”和“intelligentia”的见。 的'理解'。 nous 是直接、直观地感知精神世界的能力,它看到“想法”的世界(“想法”源自词根“vid”=to see、video、videre)。 “Theoria”的意思是上帝的愿景(即柏拉图和亚里士多德的意义),沉思。 这种能力被“激情”的风暴所掩盖。 这就是我们应该如何理解“清心的人有福了,因为他们必得见上帝”。 事实上,就像所有的八福一样。 心灵的纯洁是通过“清除罪恶”、“平息”激情的风暴、“平息”(hesychia)激情所产生的噪音,使nous能够听到上帝的话语(逻各斯)而获得的。 这是一个艰巨的方式,ἄσκησις áskesis,“锻炼”或“训练”的方式。

    • 回复: @Veritatis
    , @Veritatis
  401. Veritatis 说:
    @Seraphim

    你向我展示了一些关于罪的犹太词非常有趣的东西:击中目标但错过了黄金。 我不是神学家,但让我尝试一下:如果罪击中了目标而错过了黄金,那么我“错过”正确行为(黄金)的每一个场合(目标),我犯罪的地方,通过基督徒的理解,成为一种礼物. 它为“errare humanum est”(原谅我的拉丁语)赋予了不同的深度。 承认并悔改的罪成为道路。 在西班牙语中,我们有一句谚语“en el pecado llevarás la penitencia”(每一种罪都带来足够的痛苦)。 还有一些你不得不忍受的痛苦 活过. “我就是道路、真理和生命”。

    它必须通过忏悔圣事发生,n'est-ce pas? 还有哪里可以找到这种恩典,这种远离自己(我们的激情),这种在“上帝面前”的同时瞥一眼内在,这个我们的意志屈服于他的意志的时刻,这允许成长。

    你对念珠有什么看法? 作为平息激情和/或直觉精神的一种方式?

    我到了你的网站,很有趣,很广阔,还没决定从哪里开始。 我看了一些关于本尼迪克特雷根斯堡演讲和亚里士多德修辞的评论。 我也没有决定我的暑期阅读,我在想一些历史,也许是卡罗尔的基督教世界系列,你知道 19 世纪的一个好的历史遗址吗? Chretineau-Joly(只阅读了第二卷的三分之一)让我思考了普遍的骚乱,以及如何协调它。 财富的集中,我们所经历的价值危机,又该何去何从?

    我已经写了很多地方,一天有 14 个吵闹的少女会对你这样做。 非常感谢你。

    • 回复: @Seraphim
  402. Veritatis 说:
    @Seraphim

    多么有趣,只是在沉默中发现了这个:
    “自从我在 1950 年代第一次阅读安提阿的圣依纳爵的书信以来,他写给以弗所人的信中的一段对我的影响特别大:“保持沉默并成为[基督徒]比说话而不是. 教学是一件极好的事情,只要演讲者实践他所教的。 现在,有一位老师说话了,事情就这样过去了。 甚至他默默做的事也配得上父。 真正以耶稣的话为自己的话的人也能够听到他的沉默,以便他成为完美的人:以便他可以通过他的言语采取行动,并通过他的沉默被人所知”(15, 1f.)。 那是什么意思:聆听耶稣的沉默并通过他的沉默认识他? 我们从福音书中知道,耶稣经常独自“在山上”过夜,与他的天父交谈祷告。 我们知道他的言语,他的话语,来自沉默,只有在那里才能成熟。 所以理所当然地,只有当我们也进入他的沉默中,如果我们学会从他的沉默中听到他的话,才能正确理解他的话。

    当然,为了解释耶稣的话,历史知识是必要的,它教会我们了解当时的时间和语言。 但是,如果我们真的要深入理解主的信息,仅此是不够的。 今天,任何读到越来越厚的福音书注释的人,最终都会感到失望。 他从那些日子里学到了很多有用的东西,也学到了很多最终对理解文本毫无帮助的假设。 最后你会觉得,在所有多余的言语中,缺少了一些本质:进入耶稣的沉默,他的话语就是从那里诞生的。 如果我们不能进入这种沉默,我们将永远只听到这个词的表面,从而无法真正理解它。”

    本尼迪克特对莎拉红衣主教的“沉默的力量”的序言

    • 回复: @Seraphim
  403. Seraphim 说:
    @Veritatis

    我建议从忏悔者圣马克西姆斯开始。 尤其是他的世纪。 您将在 Kindle 中找到完整版本。 这是对东正教苦行和神秘神学及其与礼仪(他的论文神秘学)关系的最好介绍。
    我认为西方最接近正统神秘神学的是加尔默罗的神秘传统(十字圣约翰)。
    关于西方的禁欲和神秘神学,最好的来源是雷金纳德·加里古-拉格朗日的《永生前奏》。

  404. Seraphim 说:
    @Veritatis

    关于“hesychia”的意思是沉默,但也意味着静止,安静,基本读物是圣格雷戈里帕拉马斯的“捍卫神圣安静者的三合会”。

    • 回复: @Veritatis
  405. Veritatis 说:
    @Seraphim

    你好Seraphim,希望你会看到这个,否则我将不得不寻找更新的线程。

    洗礼使我们能够作为教会的成员生活,它给了我们一个伟大的礼物,即信仰、希望和爱德等神学美德的种子。 这些不仅帮助我们努力对抗我们的黑暗本性,而且帮助我们建立一个更好的生活和社区,一种在今生谈论上帝并希望为我们带来永恒的生活文化。

    第一次圣餐。 一个神圣的行为,接受基督。 但我看到我对牺牲和礼物的解释不够,关于喜悦不清楚,我们正在接近一个。 你说的很简洁明了,我想问问你有什么有用的想法吗?

    • 回复: @Seraphim
  406. Seraphim 说:
    @Veritatis

    仁兄,

    在我谦虚的“澄清”中,您可能会发现的所有清晰度都来自圣经、东正教教父和忏悔者的频繁出现,当然,也来自参与教会的礼仪生活和祈祷。 它们仍然是礼仪生活的最佳介绍。
    在东正教教堂中实际诵读的经文(先知、圣咏、福音书、书信)比简单的阅读或“圣经研究”具有更深远的影响。 这实际上是一种神圣的行为。 你在主和他的圣徒的眼中聆听活生生的话语。
    我推荐东正教思想的两颗珍珠:
    与圣格雷戈里·帕拉马斯同时代的伟大神秘主义和神学作家圣尼古拉斯·卡瓦西拉斯的《论在基督里的生活》。 他对洗礼、圣礼和圣体圣事的解释是无与伦比的。 请记住,在东正教教堂中,洗礼之后紧接着是圣礼和圣餐。 他们之间没有延迟。
    “神圣礼仪的解释”。
    你可以在网上找到它们,虽然我更喜欢书的格式。
    的确,洗礼是上帝赐给我们的礼物,我们在圣体圣事中为此感恩(如您所知,圣体圣事的意思是“感恩节”)。 我们必须始终感谢上帝赐给我们的一切,尤其是永生的应许。 就我们而言,这是感恩的牺牲。

    我认为我们可以保留此线程作为通信线路。 我会定期检查。

  407. Veritatis 说:

    “我们必须永远感谢上帝赐给我们的一切,尤其是永生的应许。 对我们来说,这是感恩的牺牲。”

    那里! 我知道你会写一个简洁的小金块。 在中午祈祷中加入一些东西,再加上一些为一个认真的 10 岁孩子准备的东西。 我忘记了在实践中与天主教传统肯定有很多不同之处。 我所知道的主要是东正教有一个美丽的、更“神秘”的弥撒。其余的都是关于历史的。

    还没有完成克雷蒂诺,下令在基督里生活加上加里古。 我们会看到,我没有读过上帝之城,我的网站关闭了,很难找到场地。 当您可以与他人一起思考时,书籍的打开方式会有所不同。 (我们确实分享早期的父亲,不是吗?)

  408. Seraphim 说:

    你太好了。
    但说到“金块”,让我提醒您,您可以从金口圣约翰讲道(金口)的“智慧珍珠”中获得巨大的精神利益。

  409. Veritatis 说:

    啊不不不! 你要么把作业写得少一点,要么减少数量,因为我目前正在艰难地完成算术学年的学习,加上一些中学课程,特别是政治辩论。 即使在汤中,也必须遇到特朗普。 我们甚至不得不 捍卫 他。

    很有意思,N.的姐姐。 我知道希特勒并不是真正的尼采,我只是认为尼采在他的高级同事中很受欢迎,否则这样一个有用的现代“思想家”怎么会被贴上纳粹的标签? 刑事。 电讯报的文章可能是为了让他适应现代消费而进行的康复运动的一部分,你不觉得吗?

    所以,五旬节守夜。 大约 250 名青少年,晚上 10 点至早上 6 点。 中等难度的观众。 两分钟的注意力。 我的解释简而言之:五旬节的故事是一个奇迹的故事,不同背景和历史的人可以走到一起,互相了解。 信仰是教会信仰与否。 让我们一起来,在基督里。

    不是我想强加,而是有什么想法吗?

  410. Seraphim 说:

    仁兄,

    五旬节是圣灵只降临在使徒身上,正如耶稣所应许的那样。
    请注意,只有使徒会说语言。

    “当五旬节完全来临的时候,他们都在一个地方一致同意。 2 忽然从天上传来一阵狂风的声音,充满了他们所坐的房子。 3有像火一样的裂开的舌头向他们显现,落在他们每个人身上。 4 他们都被圣灵充满,开始说方言,因为圣灵给了他们话语。 5 有虔诚的犹太人住在耶路撒冷,是从天下各国中来的。 6 这话一响,众人就聚集起来,都惊慌失措,因为各人听见他们说自己的方言”(使徒行传 2:1-6)

    “16 我要祈求父,他会再给你一位保惠师,使他永远与你同在; 17 就是真理的灵; 世人不能接待他,因为没有看见他,也不认识他。你们却认识他; 因为他与你同住,也要在你里面。 18 我不会让你不舒服:我会到你那里去”(约翰福音 14:16-17)。
    但当保惠师来了,我将从父那里差遣给你们的,就是从父出来的真理之灵,他要为我作见证:27你们也要作见证,因为你们从开始”(约翰福音 15:26-27)。
    “7 然而我实话告诉你们; 我离开对你来说是合宜的:因为如果我不离开,保惠师就不会来找你; 但如果我离开,我会送他到你那里。 8 他来的时候,要责备世人的罪、公义和审判: 9 罪,因为他们不信我; 10 为义,因为我往我父那里去,你们不再看见我; 11 为审判,因为这世界的王受了审判。 12我还有很多事要对你们说,但你们现在无法承受。 13 然而,当他,真理的圣灵来临时,他会引导你进入一切的真理:因为他不说自己; 但无论他听到什么,他都会说:并将将要发生的事情告诉你。 14 他要荣耀我:因为他要将受于我的告诉你们。 15 父所有的都是我的;所以我说,他要把它取于我的,告诉你们”(约翰福音 16:7-15)。

    OTOH,如果尼采是一个真正的反犹主义者,请确保没有人从未听说过他。 或者,他会被诽谤。

  411. Veritatis 说:

    我想也许我们的传统不同? 对于天主教徒来说,五旬节是教会的起源(虽然只有使徒说方言)。 我不知道神父会说什么,但是对于靠近我的任何粗心的青少年,我想“播种”信仰存在于社区中,“个人信仰”永远无法真正超越我们自己的自我。 与围绕他们的特定信念作斗争,你看。 第二点是基督今天活着,在这个教会中,在圣事生活中。 否则他会是另一个值得记住的“思想家”吗? 是他只是那个,还是他所说的他? 祈求遇见祂,在黑暗中举起蜡烛,点燃炽热的爱。

    • 回复: @Seraphim
  412. Seraphim 说:
    @Veritatis

    是什么让你认为东正教不这么认为? 五旬节对他们来说也是教会的起源。 目睹神迹并听了彼得解释的人立即受了洗。 信仰存在于教会中,因为教会是圣灵的存放处(“因此我让你明白,没有人借着上帝的灵说话称耶稣是受诅咒的:没有人可以说耶稣是主,而是通过圣灵” – 1 Cor. 12:3) 谁是通过圣礼赋予的。

    “32 这位耶稣已经使神复活了,我们都是他的见证人。 33因此,靠着被高举的上帝的右手,并从父那里接受了圣灵的应许,他已经发出了你们现在所看到和听到的。 34 因为大卫并没有升到天上。他自己说,耶和华对我主说,你坐在我的右边, 35 等我使你的仇敌作你的脚凳。 36 所以,以色列全家当确实地知道,你们钉在十字架上的这位耶稣,神已经立他为主为基督。 37他们听到这话,心里一刺,就对彼得和其余的使徒说,弟兄们,我们该怎么办? 38 彼得对他们说,你们要悔改,奉耶稣基督的名受洗,使罪得赦,你们就会领受圣灵的恩赐。 39因为应许是给你和你的孩子,以及所有远方的人,只要耶和华我们的神所召来的人。 40 他又用许多话作见证劝勉说,你们要救自己脱离这不幸的世代。 41 那些欣然接受他的话的人就受了洗;同一天,约有三千人加入了他们。 42 他们坚定不移地遵守使徒的教义和团契、擘饼和祈祷。 43 每个人都感到恐惧:使徒们行了许多奇事和神迹。 44 信的人都在一起,凡物公用; 45 变卖了他们的财物,照各人的需要分给了众人。 46 他们每天都在圣殿里同心协力,挨家挨户擘饼,吃他们的肉,心里欢喜,专一, 47 赞美上帝,得到众民的喜爱。 主天天加给教会,使当得救的人”(使徒行传 2:32-47)。

    • 回复: @Veritatis
  413. Veritatis 说:
    @Seraphim

    周一好,五旬节过得很顺利,我也希望你。

    我正在阅读基督教世界的“天主教”历史,并且有兴趣阅读七十士译本中的诗篇 110 被解释为大卫对基督的预言性介绍。 显然,该文本的希伯来语翻译是高深莫测的。 所以,对于那些东正教的人来说,那一刻的胜利,我想让你知道。

  414. Seraphim 说:

    谢谢,五旬节进展顺利。 在东正教教堂,这三天都是五旬节盛宴的一部分(星期日是“三位一体主日”,圣灵降临节星期一是“圣灵的星期一”,圣灵降临节星期二是“三位一体的第三天”。庆祝礼仪在所有这些天)。

    当然,诗篇 109 篇(七十士译本)是耶稣直接引用的弥赛亚诗篇。 相关的段落是马太福音 22:41-45:
    “法利赛人聚集的时候,耶稣问他们说,42 说,你们对基督的看法如何? 他是谁的儿子? 他们对他说,大卫的儿子。 43 他对他们说,大卫怎么在心里称他为主,说, 44 耶和华对我主说,你坐在我的右边,等我以你的仇敌为你的脚凳? 45 大卫若称他为主,他如何是他的儿子? 46 没有人能够回答他一个字,从那天起也没有人敢再问他任何问题”。

    和希伯来书 7:15-17:
    “15 更明显的是:因为在与麦基洗德相似之后,又出现了另一位祭司,16 他不是按照肉体诫命的律法被造,而是按照永生的大能。 17 他作证说,你照麦基洗德的等次,永远是祭司”。

    其他“弥赛亚”诗篇是 2:“地上的君王都起来,众首领聚集起来,反对耶和华,反对他的基督(希腊语是 χριστοῦ αὐτοῦ,受膏者 – 希伯来语 מָשִׁ֫יחachַ)” – m
    和 21 (Septuagint) 详细描述了受难时刻。 耶稣背诵十字架上的诗篇来证实预言。
    事实上,所有的诗篇都谈到基督:
    “44 他对他们说,我还在你们中间的时候,对你们说过的话,就是凡事都必须应验的,就是写在摩西的律法、先知和诗篇上的,关于我。” (路加福音 24:44)。

    在基督里。

    • 回复: @Veritatis
  415. Veritatis 说:
    @Seraphim

    我很喜欢,谢谢。 于是,两个 Garrigous 找到了新家。 我最喜欢的牧师来吃午饭,我给他买了一个作为礼物,他对作者很熟悉(“一个多米尼加人”,他笑了),最后带着两个去危地马拉传教。 在所有的喋喋不休中,我们能够就metanoia、nous和内在的上帝进行更深入的对话。 他是一个祷告的人,并推荐圣德肋撒比十字架的圣约翰“软”。 自然而然地发生了对西班牙“Amor Sacro”诗歌的绕道。 我应该拉紧你的西班牙语吗?

    [更多]

    No me mueve mi Dios para quererte
    el cielo que me tienes prometido:
    ni me mueve el infierno tan temido,
    停止冒犯你

    Tu me mueves, Señor, muéveme el verte,
    钉在十字架上并嘲笑,
    让我感动看到你的身体如此受伤,
    muéveme tus afrentas y tu muerte。

    Muéveme, en fin, tu amor, y en tal manera,
    即使没有天堂,我也会爱你,
    即使没有地狱,我也会怕你。

    No tienes que me dar porque te quiera,
    porque aunque cuanto espero no esperara,
    lo mismo que te quiero, te quisiera。

    我认为,最美妙的部分是它是匿名的。 在基督里。

    • 回复: @Seraphim
    , @Seraphim
  416. Seraphim 说:
    @Veritatis

    是的,很美。 西班牙语不会吓到我。 我来自罗曼语语言背景(罗马尼亚语)。 我对西班牙语情有独钟。 堂吉诃德是我童年和青年的快乐。
    不用说,获得玫瑰经的圣多米尼克也是西班牙人。 我也对图卢兹和整个“Occitanie”情有独钟,我每次去法国都会参观。 这是一个充满灵性的地区(可以这么说,我可以在空气中感受到),圣地亚哥卡米诺(Camino de Santiago)的一个分支(我认为它是西欧基督教的“脊梁”)经过这里。 它仍然是最“拜占庭”的,没有被伊斯兰教玷污。 事实上,它是西方第一个被基督教化的地区(我坚持使徒时代发生的当地传统)。
    在基督里。

    • 回复: @Veritatis
  417. Seraphim 说:
    @Veritatis

    @conversation 关于 metanoia、nous 和内在的上帝

    我可以补充一点,在东正教中,“metania”(当然来自 metanoia)也意味着大礼拜。 梅塔尼亚,较小的大礼拜(向地板鞠躬)和大梅塔尼亚(完全大礼拜)。 它是忏悔的标志并伴随着祈祷。 忏悔的神父通常会根据罪行的严重程度给忏悔者规定一些“重罪”。 它对心灵有非常强大的影响。 这是僧侣通常的精神锻炼。 用寺院的说法,僧侣回到他的牢房“做他的元气”,他的精神练习(演讲、圣歌、祈祷、大礼拜)。
    但它也意味着打结的祈祷绳(komboskini、vervitsa,在罗马尼亚语中是 mătănii),用于计算祈祷的次数,类似于念珠。 它是在修士或修女剃光头时给出的,上面写着:
    ”弟兄(姊妹)啊,接受圣灵的宝剑,就是在永恒的耶稣祷告中,神的话(以弗所书 6:17),借着它,你应该在你的灵魂、你的思想和你的思想中拥有主的名心,总是说:“主耶稣基督,上帝的儿子,怜悯我这个罪人。”
    在基督里。

    • 回复: @Veritatis
  418. Veritatis 说:
    @Seraphim

    埃尔卡米诺,是的! 我们打算做到,也许明年。 我扎根于西班牙北部,在 Santillana del Mar(阿尔塔米拉的洞穴附近)听到 Colegiata 的钟声是对祖先的向往。 我喜欢使徒圣地亚哥的代表之一是“圣地亚哥马塔莫罗斯”,最近因“正确性”原因而搁置一旁。 但如果文化迷雾散去,它可能还会像常识一样复苏。 你知道波特斯吗? 圣托里比奥的一座小修道院,位于山中,维拉克鲁斯的最大部分被保存在那里。 一位方济各会修士讲述了 XNUMX 世纪荒野如何在阿斯托加前进的故事,因此他们将圣物送到了山上,允许一个人拿着它所在的十字架并亲吻它。 一个完全感人的、意想不到的时刻。

    布恩卡米诺,今天。

    • 回复: @Seraphim
  419. Veritatis 说:
    @Seraphim

    很有意思。 如果没有修道士这个最有用的职业,基督教会在哪里。 耶稣会士在他们的灵修结束时祈祷,绝对向神的意志鞠躬,令人感动,令人震惊。 我现在找不到它,但是当我找到时会发送它。

    • 回复: @Veritatis
  420. Seraphim 说:
    @Veritatis

    是的,谢谢你让我想起了 Potes 的 Vera Cruz。 这让我立刻想到了 Saint Beatus de Liebana 和他非凡的愿景。
    制作卡米诺是我的愿望,但我从未成功过,也不太可能成功(我越来越少地从 Antipodes 来到欧洲!)。 但我经常在脑海中浮现。 我对圣墓进行了终极朝圣,正好是在圣周六,我亲眼目睹了来自果尔各答的圣光,因此可能会有所弥补! 无论如何,我在悉尼参加的俄罗斯教会有两个十字架的小碎片!
    如果您继续前往 El Camino,我相信您不会错过 Sudarium of Oviedo。 从普罗旺斯到大西洋(大约是前阿基坦)的所有地区都有一段与基督教最神圣的遗迹相关的历史(我建议你阅读一个有趣的研究:“复活后时代裹尸布的可能下落”@ www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2009/10/on-possible-whereabouts-of-shroud-in.html,仅供您观看)。 我还想到了瓦伦西亚的圣卡利兹和圣洛伦索。
    请记住,圣地亚哥是塔博尔山变形的三个门徒见证人之一。
    ¡ 西班牙圣地亚哥 y cierra!
    在基督里

    • 回复: @Veritatis
    , @Veritatis
  421. Veritatis 说:
    @Veritatis

    它被称为怀疑祈祷,它是这样的:

    主啊,接受我所有的自由,
    我的记忆,我的理解,以及我所有的意志——
    我拥有和拥有的一切。
    主啊,你把这一切都给了我。
    我现在把它还给你,主啊。
    这一切都是你的。
    根据您的意愿处理它。
    给我爱你自己和恩典,
    因为这对我来说已经足够了。

    它的意思是作为圣伊格内修斯精神练习中的结束祈祷。 当然,耶稣会士被训练成为行动中的默观者,也就是说,参与世界。 我想象他们这么说,然后去丛林里寻找印度人,或者违背中国人的意愿粉碎。

    更重要的是,第一次圣餐很可爱。

  422. Veritatis 说:
    @Seraphim

    你好塞拉芬。 我终于走进了 Mystagogy 网站,查了一下这个词,并阅读了 Shroud 的文章。 两次,因为我发现它详细且范围非常广泛。 我发现很难相信基督的同时代人到过法国和英国,但非常有趣,是治愈国王的裹尸布。 正如它所说,这确实可以解释亚瑟经久不衰的传奇。 然而,在君士坦丁堡被洗劫一空后,裹尸布的最终目的地仍然不确定? 如果有这样的遗物被盗,有没有记录? 而且我知道好奇害死猫,但作者写的有点像你? 之后,我被你的“金嘴”绊倒在讲道中:

    “..即使我们拥有无数的善行,如果我们怀念过错,都是徒劳无功的,我们将无法从中获得任何拯救我们的利益。

    因此,当我们意识到这些事情时,让我们结束所有的愤怒,并净化我们的良心,让我们以所有的温柔和温柔接近基督的桌子,与天父一起,所有的荣耀、尊贵和能力都归于基督和圣灵,从现在到永远,直到万世。 阿门。”

    嗯嗯嗯…… 这个人是威胁! 早期的神父们,他们不怕直言不讳,是吗? 而这个metanoia(性格改变)的事情..非常激进,只能是基督徒。 不管怎样,谢谢你,虽然有点生硬,但我喜欢这次谈话。 在基督里。

    • 回复: @Seraphim
  423. Veritatis 说:
    @Seraphim

    我在之前的帖子中忘记了-有点累-,所以我不得不将您的圣墓朝圣添加到听起来很棒。 人们永远不知道未来的。 当我们去的时候,我希望能和你商量! (恐怕有人想强加一点真的是你的错。)晚安。

    • 回复: @Seraphim
  424. Seraphim 说:
    @Veritatis

    我们非常详细地知道在君士坦丁堡被洗劫后裹尸布发生了什么。 最终目的地是保存它的都灵。 2015 年,它展出并有 2 万游客参观。
    在 Noel Currer-Briggs 解雇君士坦丁堡后,有关裹尸布历史的详细信息:“裹尸布和圣杯:对真正圣杯的现代探索”(启发我像他一样写作的那位作者查阅的书!)”
    要全面了解裹尸布,请访问“都灵裹尸布网站”@https://www.shroud.com/menu.htm。
    在基督里

    • 回复: @Seraphim
  425. Seraphim 说:
    @Veritatis

    这是一个我非常喜欢的强加。
    我将在接下来的两个月中出差,所以可能会延迟回复,但我希望尽可能保持这种联系并提供帮助。
    在基督里。

  426. Seraphim 说:
    @Seraphim

    我应该补充一点,罗马人去法国和英国的旅行没什么不寻常的。 相反,地中海与高卢和康沃尔之间的商业关系非常古老而且非常活跃。 高卢已经是罗马的一个行省。 另一方面,使徒们受命向世界末日的“Finis Terrae”宣讲好消息。
    请参阅“使徒安德鲁的惊人传教之旅”(3 部分)@http://www.pravoslavie.ru/english/43455.htm(我推荐的网站)

    还有“通往以马忤斯的正统信仰和文化之路的期刊”@http://www.roadtoemmaus.net/

    在基督里。

    • 回复: @Veritatis
  427. Veritatis 说:
    @Seraphim

    除了“buen camino”,还有什么能祝福你的呢? 我也在八月中旬之前离开墨西哥,但矛盾的是会有更多的阅读时间。 或者我希望如此。 让我们看看夏天会带来什么,如果我与一些早期的父亲搏斗,我会让你知道。
    在基督里。

    • 回复: @Seraphim
  428. Seraphim 说:
    @Veritatis

    感谢。
    我想去墨西哥。 说到裹尸布,我认为没有必要让你想起瓜达卢佩圣母的墨西哥奇迹。 当然,你必须更清楚。
    在那之前。

    • 回复: @Veritatis
    , @Che Guava
  429. Veritatis 说:
    @Seraphim

    哦,如果你来了,那就太好了! 我们墨西哥人是一个友好的人,非常擅长长时间的午餐! 但现在我们在美国时(在一个相当无神论的海城,但在一个繁荣的教堂和一个小小的永久崇拜教堂的两个街区内),现在不是了。

    La Virgen Morena,是的。 对 Nuestra Señora de Guadalupe 的奉献强烈而深刻,有时甚至是迷信,以至于当本笃十六世于 2012 年来到墨西哥时,他提到——有点像他惯常的顺便说一句——基督教需要以基督为中心。 幸运的是,媒体没有或不能,因为大众对这位虚弱、矜持、缺乏魅力的教皇的热情是巨大的。

    但即使在未受过教育的情况下,人们对“la Virgencita”的这种热爱也是持续奇迹的标志。 多年前,我读过“墨西哥民族之歌”,其中详细解释了在西班牙征服之后,尽管没有人类牺牲,太阳仍在天空中移动,但印第安人实际上是如何死亡的(不仅仅是死于天花)被提供。 他们的世界不再是可理解的,因此变得有意义和宜居。 特诺奇蒂特兰是当时比许多欧洲首都还要大的城市,但被少数西班牙人征服。 因此,当圣母出现时,她是棕色皮肤,并且印第安人可以理解图像,因此皈依基督教是可能的。 他们看到了,哭了。 我不知道我们是否能真正想象在一个彻底野蛮的世界中圣母的温柔、慈爱的温柔,以及来自征服者新的胜利之神的效果。 “Muéveme, en fin, Tu amor, y ent tal manera, que aunque no hubiera Cielo yo te amara, y aunque no hubiera inferno, te temiera。”

    我最喜欢的神父,我之前谈过他,是一位在刚果工作多年的比利时老人,他说他知道墨西哥对他来说会很特别,因为他出生在 12 月 6 日,也就是节日那天瓜达卢佩(以及我们墨西哥人经常延长到 XNUMX 月 XNUMX 日,Día de Reyes 的圣诞节“Posadas”庆祝活动的开始)。 因此,他在瓦哈卡州和恰帕斯州非常贫困的州为贫困社区服务了很多年。 我的孩子们每年都会和他们的学校一起去瓜达卢佩大教堂朝圣 - 抱怨 - 乘公共汽车大约一个小时。 但有些东西会留下来……就像帕斯卡说的,信仰有三种方式:习惯(les hatudes)、灵感或理性。 我们只需要尽我们最大的能力播种和浇水。 在基督里。

  430. Che Guava 说:
    @Seraphim

    关于。 你早先关于日本在一个多世纪前用马克思主义宣传轰炸俄罗斯战俘的评论,我向你推荐以下文章。

    https://newswithviews.com/revised-bolshevikism-in-america-part-2/

    虽然他没有引用任何消息来源,但他是一个非常老的人,他关于该项目起源于美国,特别是纽约市的说法很有道理。

    我建议阅读全文,除了 PoW 的宣传与历史记录相符,但我没有看到或找到可靠的日文来源,他对它的描述比你的概括可信得多(为此我感谢你,它在你最初的陈述之后这么快就偶然发现了一个更好的版本,这是惊人的意外)。

    至于天主教会,我是考虑皈依,直到本尼迪克特下台,弗朗切斯科升天。

    之前说过,他没有为被秃鹰行动杀害和威胁的人做任何事情,部分原因是他这样做并说了这么多愚蠢的事情,他有罪,至少是合作。

    玛丽安崇拜中的 19 世纪甜点也让我感到不舒服。

    • 回复: @Veritatis
  431. Anonymous [AKA "pll"] 说:
    @AP

    只是对我的问题的意外答案。

    永远祝福上帝!

  432. Veritatis 说:
    @Che Guava

    你好,切番石榴。 我希望你看到这一点,因为我已经记住了你的回答,并阅读了我偶然发现的你的评论,你看起来真的很好而且很理智。 不要因为弗朗西斯选择教会(我们必须背负沉重的十字架,但上帝从坏中带来好处),而是因为今天和永远,基督都在他的教会中。 以圣事方式生活和共融的精神生活是无价的财富。 至于圣母,我像谈论一个人一样谈论她——比任何人都要神圣——我觉得特别亲近。 作为天主教徒,你可能会也可能不会对她忠诚,这是一种选择,但我今天读到了这篇文章,想到了你:

    玛丽和the依者| 切斯特顿(GK Chesterton)| 从井与浅滩

    …………。“玛丽与Convert依者”是最私密的话题,因为conversion依者比圣餐更个人化,不那么团结。 并将孤立的情感作为集体情感的介绍。 也是因为玛丽的崇拜在某种意义上是个人崇拜。 除了那种必须始终伴随着敬拜上帝的更大意义之外。 上帝是上帝,一切有形和无形的创造者; 上帝的母亲在某种特殊意义上与可见的事物有关; 因为她是这个地球上的人,所以通过她的身体被神感化了。 在上帝的同在下,我们必须记住那些看不见的东西,即使是仅仅出于理智的意义。 思想的抽象和绝对定律; 对真理的热爱,对正确理由的尊重和对事物的崇高逻辑,这是上帝本人所尊重的。 因为,正如圣托马斯·阿奎那所坚持的那样,上帝本身并不矛盾矛盾定律。

    但是圣母特别使我们想起了神化身,确实在某种程度上汇集并体现了内心和更高本能的所有要素,这是对上帝之爱的合法捷径。 因此,即使是在这种粗鲁和刻薄的轮廓中,要处理这些个人感受也绝非易事。 如果我所举的例子仅仅是个人的,我希望我不会被误解。 因为宗教的这一特定部分真的不能成为非人格化的。 也许是偶然的事情,或者是对天的高度应有的偏爱,但无论如何,事实是,即使在被人们视为传奇的世界中,我也总是对这种传统的遗迹充满好奇。 我不仅被这个想法所困扰,还停留在小学生怀疑主义的正常阶段。 在此之前,我摆脱了普通的托儿所宗教,上帝的母亲没有适当的位置,在此之前,我受到了它的影响。 我不久前发现,他的笔迹非常糟糕,写着对Swinburne的极其糟糕的模仿的抄袭,尽管如此,显然是针对我本来应该称做麦当娜的照片的。 而且我可以清楚地记得背诵“赞颂普罗瑟平的颂歌”的台词,是因为它们的滚动和共鸣。 但故意将他们从斯威本的意图中转移开,并假设他们是针对新的生命女王,而不是堕落的异教死后女王。

    “但是我还是转向她。 看到她一定会坚持到底; 女神,少女和女王,现在就在我身边并成为朋友。”

    从那时起,我就一直模糊地捍卫君士坦丁建立的一切,这是一个模糊而缓慢地澄清的想法,就像斯温伯恩的异教徒捍卫了他扔下的一切一样。

    (它不完整。最良好的祝愿。)

  433. Veritatis 说:

    建议反对,我不会继续评论。 但是,我想感谢您的评论和建议,尤其是 Pravoslavie/orthochristian。 我发现它很容易接触到早期的父亲,在过去的几天里非常受欢迎。 我会推荐 Centro Español de Sindonología 的视频,其中包括我不知道的 Sudarium 和 Chalice。 (我很高兴得知您不是那些嘲笑裹尸布的不信任福音派,因为天主教徒拥有裹尸布)如果可能,这里有一封临时电子邮件,欢迎您提出建议:Santiagocierra at yahoo dot com。 无论如何,我的祈祷和最良好的祝愿都归于你和你的。 恩克里斯托。

  434. Anonymous [AKA "navi"] 说:
    @The Plutonium Kid

    作者文章的问题是他的基督教不包括其中最受欢迎的。 摩尼教基督教。 这种基督教始于公元 234 年。 并在 19 世纪初结束。它是这个星球上最被接受的宗教。 从中国到西欧。
    他提到了圣奥古斯丁,他只不过是天主教罗马的间谍。 在摩尼教社区呆了9年,这样他就可以作为反对他们的参考。 不仅作者忽视了这个非常严重的历史事实,而且所有的答复也都被忽视了。 摩尼教又回来了。
    所以,是时候害怕了。 因为它代表白光和太阳正在升起...... 在东方
    东方在右边而不在左边。

  435. 旧约是丑陋和不道德的? 为什么? 就因为它暴露了人性的罪恶,才能被正确地否定? 这是我注意到的另一个问题,这是 Fred 每当主题出现时倾向于提出的那种青少年情感论点。 和大多数情感上的青少年不可知论者一样,弗雷德在“现代”思想和“唯物主义思想”之间模棱两可。 这实际上只是自由派“当年”论点的变体。 事实上,科学时代已经为奇迹提供了更多的论据。

    https://zenit.org/articles/physician-tells-of-eucharistic-miracle-of-lanciano/
    http://www.therecord.com.au/perspectives/columnists/eucharistic-miracles-proof-of-christs-real-presence/

    此外,“现代思想”相信生物性别是一种社会结构。 我会抓住机会,相信旧约。

  436. Blue Corgi 说:

    宁康普。 智商甚至可能达到 100。 我知道,这些天在这些部分看起来很高。

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不是汤姆·杰斐逊的想法
听起来对我来说就像是一所低级的美国大学
很长一段时间,大多数人都会厌烦地狱,但是我觉得自己很喜欢