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The Knesset has just formally passed a Basic Law stipulating that Israel is “the historical homeland of the Jewish people and they have an exclusive right to national self-determination in it.”
Jerusalem is furthermore defined as the “complete and untied… capital of Israel.”
Power summary:
- Jews constitute 75% of the Israeli population, but they have no complexes about proclaiming their country a Jewish state. As Richard Spencer might approvingly say, the Jews in Israel have “become what they are.”
- Russians constitute 81% of the Russian population, or 83% including Belorussians and Ukrainians, but the slogan “Russia for Russians” is considered to be extremist by 政府 and the (((liberal intelligentsia))) of Kats, Shats, and Albats (who all seems to be rather silent on the new Israeli laws; one ever so wonders why).
Even so, handshakeworthy opinion in the West proclaims Putler, not Netanyahu, to be the “godfather of extreme nationalism“。
And it is Russians who are the racists and bigots for not having any blacks on their football team – not Israeli Jews, half of whose schoolchildren 比如说 Arabs shouldn’t have the right to vote.
Not that there’s anything wrong with any of that that, mind you.
As everyone knows, I am one of the biggest philo-Semites on the Internet, and thus I have always urged people to learn calm, moderate nationalism from the Jews.
Imitation being the sincerest form of flattery, here is what Russians would have to do to pay homage to Zionism, as is the sacred duty of every goyim:
- Sweep away the fake and gay post-sovok construct known as the Russian Federation, including its even faker and gayer ethnic minority autonomies;
- Proclaim Russia as a Russian State;
- Proclaim Kiev as the “complete and untied… capital of Russia”;
- 基金 Museums of the Russian Genocide throughout Russia and abroad to make sure everyone thinks of Russians as the victims.
- Criminalize interfaith marriages.
I don’t see how anybody could have any issues with this whatsoever. If anything, 失败 to do any of this will be anti-Semitic, and we certainly can’t have that.
Obviously, American and European nationalists must advance with similar considerations.
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As far as I know, they don’t do that in Israel, they just don’t have civil marriage and leave it to religious communities; but iirc they do recognize interfaith marriages contracted abroad (e.g. Cyprus).
Anyway, I admit when I read about that law, my first reaction was “Nice, I’d like something like that as well”.
Will be interesting to see how this will affect Israel’s image in the next few years.
In Israel, about 100 women a year convert to Islam, in order to marry Arab partners.
The interfaith thing is going in the wrong direction for Israel (Israel would want the Arabs to convert to Judaism, but it only goes in the other direction for them in Israel).
(Mass conversion of Arabs to Judaism would solve a lot of their problems).
If Israel banned conversion to Islam, they would be successful (but this would not happen there with their current attitude and culture - the elite attitude is more like Putin's multireligious toleration).
There's also the case of the guy from Belarus who converted to Islam, and joined ISIS.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/jewish-convert-to-islam-jailed-over-plan-to-join-is/
I thought the issue wasn't interfaith marriages per se, but marriages with Palestinians, after a Palestinian who married an Israeli used his access to Israel to commit a terrorist attack. IIRC.
回复：@German_reader
Interesting stuff about the complications of the concept of “nationality” in Israel:
https://mondoweiss.net/2016/03/israelis-dont-exist/
It's not described directly on the card anymore (as in Russia, you don't have it on the passport since the 1990s).
There's debate about whether nationality is determined from the numbers on the card.
In the past, they also used calendar (Hebrew or Gregorian) to determine nationality.
Here comparing the new cards, with the old ones.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KoNGbgm5ca8
You are joking. It seems to be calm and moderate only because nobody can talk about it.
It would be cool if Israel would move to a moderate-right orientation. In my opinion, the elite are more suicidally liberal than in Russia, and situation in Israel is kind of precarious compared any other countries (whether it survives or not). But this law names Jews as the titular nationality is only a symbolic one. For now, Israel is still acting as a liberal (Obama style liberal) dictatorship, because it is controlled by Supreme Court judges who have ultimate authority in allowing laws (i.e. preventing them deporting Sudanese, etc).
A future law which could change the situation in Israel, would be what they call the “override law”, which would allow the parliament to override the Supreme Court. However, they cannot pass this law this year because of the current coalition (one party does not allow it).
Controversy about the override proposal was happening in April.
https://www.jpost.com/Opinion/THINK-ABOUT-IT-Governability-democracy-and-the-override-clause-553039
Also some conflicts with the EU in relation to this I have been reading about.
https://en.mida.org.il/2018/07/02/attack-the-right-the-eu-is-fighting-israels-government-through-israeli-ngos/
–
I can’t see benefit for Israel of this law making Jews the titular nationality, except perhaps in one area – negotiations with Palestinian Authority. Usually they always say “Abbas has to recognize Israel is a Jewish state.” Now surely they don’t need Abbas to recognize is a Jewish state, since it’s unilaterally declared, so that any negotiation Abbas makes with Israel will already presume this.
Liberals a barely more popular in Israel than in Russia, are they not?
People like Ilan Pappe and Amira Hass aren't exactly representative. Even some of the harsher critics of Israeli policy like Benny Morris, Efraim Karsh or the late Israel Shahak were hardly bleeding hearts either.
回复：@Dmitry
https://mondoweiss.net/2016/03/israelis-dont-exist/
回复：@Dmitry
It’s not described directly on the card anymore (as in Russia, you don’t have it on the passport since the 1990s).
There’s debate about whether nationality is determined from the numbers on the card.
In the past, they also used calendar (Hebrew or Gregorian) to determine nationality.
Here comparing the new cards, with the old ones.
Anyway, I admit when I read about that law, my first reaction was "Nice, I'd like something like that as well".
Will be interesting to see how this will affect Israel's image in the next few years.
回复：@Dmitry、@Dave Pinsen
In Israel, about 100 women a year convert to Islam, in order to marry Arab partners.
The interfaith thing is going in the wrong direction for Israel (Israel would want the Arabs to convert to Judaism, but it only goes in the other direction for them in Israel).
(Mass conversion of Arabs to Judaism would solve a lot of their problems).
If Israel banned conversion to Islam, they would be successful (but this would not happen there with their current attitude and culture – the elite attitude is more like Putin’s multireligious toleration).
There’s also the case of the guy from Belarus who converted to Islam, and joined ISIS.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/jewish-convert-to-islam-jailed-over-plan-to-join-is/
Does this have anything to do with Russian Russia i.e. European Russia being bounded by the Urals in the east and the Caucasus to the south? The Russian state controls a much larger territory that goes beyond the Urals, and Russians don’t pretend or believe that Russians originated from beyond European Russia. Whereas Jews do seem to believe or pretend that Jews today originated in Israeli territory.
回复：@Talha
It would be extremely difficult for Americans to do the “Museum of Holocaust” thing. I mean, they are trying to pull such crap in Boston, where tax evasion is depicted as “fight for freedom”, but even that joke of a war kept busy only a handful of people, even at its peak. And past that, they have been doing all the killing, or at least oil the wheels for others to do it. USS Maine, Pearl Harbor, 9/11 – only jokes with limited impact, essentially encouraged by US leaders in order to feed their insatiable thirst for war.
Museums of the Russian Genocide and Slavery. There would be no meaning to Slavery w/o Slavs. Afro-Americans you can eat your heart out.
It would be better "Museum of Russian history, language and culture" - and just including about historical mistreatment as one aspect of the presentation. It would be more important to introduce about language and culture.
Also when you are abroad, you don't want to be seen (your nationality) as a victim, but as a cultured people with an important language.
Focusing on being a victim, creates negative image of yourself (according to Just World Hypothesis).
If I was funding this (if I was an oligarch), I would focus on language teaching, and positive high cultural contributions, and even history only as a way for people to access the positive cultural aspects.
However, Russia is a huge country - 146 million people. What foreigners think is less important - it's more important what citizens of Russia think. And building more museums in Russia, also attracts tourism, whereas building them abroad - attracts tourism abroad.
If we look at Japan. They have developed a very positive image even abroad in recent years, simply through the success of their popular culture. And to a lesser extent, Korea is doing this as well.
Japan does not build museums of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Although Japan is highly patriotic and local people understand their historical mistreatment during the Second World War (and they have museums in Hiroshima and Nagasaki about the American bombing). They make positive animes and computer games, and all the youth around the world (including in America) are falling in love with these.
回复：@utu
A future law which could change the situation in Israel, would be what they call the "override law", which would allow the parliament to override the Supreme Court. However, they cannot pass this law this year because of the current coalition (one party does not allow it).
Controversy about the override proposal was happening in April.
https://www.jpost.com/Opinion/THINK-ABOUT-IT-Governability-democracy-and-the-override-clause-553039
Also some conflicts with the EU in relation to this I have been reading about.
https://en.mida.org.il/2018/07/02/attack-the-right-the-eu-is-fighting-israels-government-through-israeli-ngos/
-
I can't see benefit for Israel of this law making Jews the titular nationality, except perhaps in one area - negotiations with Palestinian Authority. Usually they always say "Abbas has to recognize Israel is a Jewish state." Now surely they don't need Abbas to recognize is a Jewish state, since it's unilaterally declared, so that any negotiation Abbas makes with Israel will already presume this.
回复：@Yevardian
Liberals a barely more popular in Israel than in Russia, are they not?
People like Ilan Pappe and Amira Hass aren’t exactly representative. Even some of the harsher critics of Israeli policy like Benny Morris, Efraim Karsh or the late Israel Shahak were hardly bleeding hearts either.
I talk every week with friends in Israel. Most people are very right-wing, and they are a kind of clever version of rednecks and peasants (cultural knowledge in Israel is really limited with normal people there).
The elites though, and particular in the media and legal areas (the latter controls the Supreme Court), are very liberal and virtue-signalling.
If this Supreme Court override law is ever passed, then it will change a lot, and become a center-right acting country (as their laws will pass against illegal immigrants and NGOs, etc).
The situation in the media is a little better (more balanced - with both liberal and conservative views) than Western Europe.
I'm trying to learn Hebrew this year, and I watch their new state television (Kan - "here"). They have a mix of views - maybe 70% liberal, and 30% are right-wing.
Their main one is a liberal women presenter (name is written like this לוסי איוב) who is half Arab and half Jewish. But her views are more like neoliberal than like "Obama liberal". She's very feminist and wants interfaith marriage between Arabs and Jews. At the same time, she is supporting civic liberties (legalizing drugs and prostitution), and her views patriotic ones.
回复：@Dmitry
It would be better “Museum of Russian history, language and culture” – and just including about historical mistreatment as one aspect of the presentation. It would be more important to introduce about language and culture.
Also when you are abroad, you don’t want to be seen (your nationality) as a victim, but as a cultured people with an important language.
Focusing on being a victim, creates negative image of yourself (according to Just World Hypothesis).
If I was funding this (if I was an oligarch), I would focus on language teaching, and positive high cultural contributions, and even history only as a way for people to access the positive cultural aspects.
However, Russia is a huge country – 146 million people. What foreigners think is less important – it’s more important what citizens of Russia think. And building more museums in Russia, also attracts tourism, whereas building them abroad – attracts tourism abroad.
If we look at Japan. They have developed a very positive image even abroad in recent years, simply through the success of their popular culture. And to a lesser extent, Korea is doing this as well.
Japan does not build museums of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Although Japan is highly patriotic and local people understand their historical mistreatment during the Second World War (and they have museums in Hiroshima and Nagasaki about the American bombing). They make positive animes and computer games, and all the youth around the world (including in America) are falling in love with these.
I was alluding to etymological link between slave and Slav. Ae we know Jews and Blacks find the fact of being once a victim very empowering and useful in their struggle with their victimizers. Slavic people on the other hand are ashamed of the fact that once they provided many slaves. For instance ALEXEY TIMOFEYCHEV writes:
What do we see here? (1) a hang-up and ego - we were rather slave owners not slaves, we couldn't possibly be slaves and (2) lack of imagination that in the current world having a history of being slaves has a tangible market value. For instance you can tell all Africans to bug off with their whining about slavery because you yourself were slaves once and you can also make some clams with respect to Jews who dominated slavery business in medieval Europe. See Radhanite: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RadhaniteFurthermore playing the slavery card should be used in making claims to Crimea which in pre-Russia time was a center of slavers getting Slavic and Balto-Slavic and Finnish slaves and it was Russia that destroyed it by bringing Christianity and civilization to Crimea. You could get some PR mileage form it.
But Russian propaganda is stupid and unimaginative as exemplified by this ALEXEY TIMOFEYCHEV guy: we were big and strong and we wuz kangz. This stupid pride so unimaginably stupid that it even does not qualify to be a mortal sin.
Replies: @anonymous coward, @for-the-record, @Dmitry
Liberals a barely more popular in Israel than in Russia, are they not?
People like Ilan Pappe and Amira Hass aren't exactly representative. Even some of the harsher critics of Israeli policy like Benny Morris, Efraim Karsh or the late Israel Shahak were hardly bleeding hearts either.
回复：@Dmitry
I talk every week with friends in Israel. Most people are very right-wing, and they are a kind of clever version of rednecks and peasants (cultural knowledge in Israel is really limited with normal people there).
The elites though, and particular in the media and legal areas (the latter controls the Supreme Court), are very liberal and virtue-signalling.
If this Supreme Court override law is ever passed, then it will change a lot, and become a center-right acting country (as their laws will pass against illegal immigrants and NGOs, etc).
The situation in the media is a little better (more balanced – with both liberal and conservative views) than Western Europe.
I’m trying to learn Hebrew this year, and I watch their new state television (Kan – “here”). They have a mix of views – maybe 70% liberal, and 30% are right-wing.
Their main one is a liberal women presenter (name is written like this לוסי איוב) who is half Arab and half Jewish. But her views are more like neoliberal than like “Obama liberal”. She’s very feminist and wants interfaith marriage between Arabs and Jews. At the same time, she is supporting civic liberties (legalizing drugs and prostitution), and her views patriotic ones.
It would be better "Museum of Russian history, language and culture" - and just including about historical mistreatment as one aspect of the presentation. It would be more important to introduce about language and culture.
Also when you are abroad, you don't want to be seen (your nationality) as a victim, but as a cultured people with an important language.
Focusing on being a victim, creates negative image of yourself (according to Just World Hypothesis).
If I was funding this (if I was an oligarch), I would focus on language teaching, and positive high cultural contributions, and even history only as a way for people to access the positive cultural aspects.
However, Russia is a huge country - 146 million people. What foreigners think is less important - it's more important what citizens of Russia think. And building more museums in Russia, also attracts tourism, whereas building them abroad - attracts tourism abroad.
If we look at Japan. They have developed a very positive image even abroad in recent years, simply through the success of their popular culture. And to a lesser extent, Korea is doing this as well.
Japan does not build museums of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Although Japan is highly patriotic and local people understand their historical mistreatment during the Second World War (and they have museums in Hiroshima and Nagasaki about the American bombing). They make positive animes and computer games, and all the youth around the world (including in America) are falling in love with these.
回复：@utu
I was alluding to etymological link between slave and Slav. Ae we know Jews and Blacks find the fact of being once a victim very empowering and useful in their struggle with their victimizers. Slavic people on the other hand are ashamed of the fact that once they provided many slaves. For instance ALEXEY TIMOFEYCHEV writes:
What do we see here? (1) a hang-up and ego – we were rather slave owners not slaves, we couldn’t possibly be slaves and (2) lack of imagination that in the current world having a history of being slaves has a tangible market value. For instance you can tell all Africans to bug off with their whining about slavery because you yourself were slaves once and you can also make some clams with respect to Jews who dominated slavery business in medieval Europe. See Radhanite: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radhanite
Furthermore playing the slavery card should be used in making claims to Crimea which in pre-Russia time was a center of slavers getting Slavic and Balto-Slavic and Finnish slaves and it was Russia that destroyed it by bringing Christianity and civilization to Crimea. You could get some PR mileage form it.
But Russian propaganda is stupid and unimaginative as exemplified by this ALEXEY TIMOFEYCHEV guy: we were big and strong and we wuz kangz. This stupid pride so unimaginably stupid that it even does not qualify to be a mortal sin.
More info here: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/sclavus#Latin
Regarding the slave trade in Slavs, there was a very interesting, albeit politically incorrect, book on this (in French) a few years ago that more or less disappeared down the memory hole: La traite des Slaves du VIIIe au XVIIIe siècle by Alexandre Skirda, a French historian of Russian/Ukrainian origin.
Translation of the parts in bold:从评论：
The author clearly distinguishes between two Slav(e) trades: the Western trade in Central Europe, and the Eastern trade which ravaged the area from Poland to the Urals. The first lasted only 300 years, from the 8th to the 11th centuries; the second, which also began in the 8th century, lasted for a thousand years.
The 2002 Ukrainian Encyclopedia estimates at 2- 2.5 million the number of slaves taken by the Tatars in Ukraine, Belorussia and Moscovy between 1482 and 1760, a [very] considerable number taking into account that the population of these regions between these dates can be estimated at 5 or 6 million inhabitants.
回复：@utu
Internally, it is useful to be a victim (nationalities which are victims, or perceive themself as victims, are becoming much more patriotic than those which don't).
But externally (and Karlin is talking about museums for foreigners I think), it is not useful to be a victim. This is because of Just World Hypothesis (if something bad happens to you, people will think you must be responsible in some way).
People always blame those who are mistreated, as being responsible for mistreatments.
With foreigners, it should be promotion of Russian language, literature and music, not of being a victim (it's not cool when you are abroad, that people think your nationality is a victim).
In Israel, they focus on being a victim internally. They have school trips, partly funded from the federal budget, where they send children to death camps (concentration camps) of Poland, and scare the children a lot and make them cry, even become traumatized. Most of the children are not descendants of European Jews, so the trips are building patriotism and inter-ethnic solidarity amongst different Jewish groups in Israel (which have racial tensions between them historically).
In Russia, there is also a lot of focus now in school, on tragic events of the past, and of overcoming them. And the Immortal Regiment thing is growing every year.
But externally this is not a good idea. The external policy should aim simply viewed to be a normal, increasingly developed European country, which is the reality, regardless of not having the untragic history of England, America, or Sweden.
Focus of building museums (if they are created abroad), should be promotion of Russian language, and cultural contributions.
This is also following a "win-win" model, as it helps foreigners, instead of annoying them.
Currently, Russia Today (with $500 million a year from the budget), is simply annoying Westerners, creating negative attitudes. The same budget funded for museums of culture, or of many centers the Russian language, would help Westerners and improve the diplomatic atmosphere.
Replies: @German_reader, @Hyperborean, @reiner Tor
终于你们追上来了。
但还是有疑问；会是一刀切吗，比如东正教不能嫁给无神论者，佛教徒不能嫁给犹太人（还有，新教+东正教算不算？）等等。或者这真的只是为了阻止你的女人嫁给穆斯林，但只是用更通用的术语表达？
I mean I don’t take any offense since we try to legally keep non-Muslim men away from our women, but just curious…
和平：
"Protestant + Orthodox count"
No. To get married in the Orthodox Church, you have to be Orthodox. In Russia, most people get married at the ЗАГС (like justice of the peace), and there I guess you can marry any human of the opposite sex who is not your sibling or cousin. Nominally Orthodox people (baptized and wears a cross, comes briefly to church a few times a year) usually go to the ЗАГС, though they could be persuaded to get married in church, probably. But I don't think the percentage of nominally Orthodox people is sufficient to justify abolishing the ЗАГС.
Lately, I've been thinking about the dynamics of divorce in society. Back in the day, if my neighbors got divorced, I would probably have cold relations with them afterward. Nowadays, I have many Russian friends who have happy, stable second marriages. Usually they were impulsive in their youth, had kids young with someone unsuitable who ran off, and have made better decisions the second time around. So it seems to me that to get from where we are to where we want to be, we need much stronger social disapprobation of divorce, while still cutting some slack to people who have a chance to start over. We also need strong disapprobation of adultery and wife-beating. Perhaps we should bring tar and feather. Does anyone know what was the old Russian analogue?
We also need to promote a more reasonable, less fairytaleish ideal of marriage, so that people are more likely to get it right the first time. In particular, we need more open discussion about how to make good choices of a mate, not just within families, but as communities. Making a good choice includes looking not just at apparent personal traits of the potential mate, but also at those of siblings, parents, and grandparents. (Of course, you need to apply some kind of discount the further you move along the family tree, but I haven't thought through a formula. Just proportional to the degree of genetic similarity?)
I take a quite gentle touch with influencing the decisions of children, and I haven't had to deal with such momentous decisions yet, but I am thinking about it for the future. My four criteria for a good mate are that they be Orthodox, intelligent, kind, and healthy. (I once met an Igbo satisfying these criteria, so if my daughter were to marry one like him, I could really get y'all riled up.)
Has anyone else had experience talking to their children about marriage?
回复：@Talha，@melanf
>或者这真的只是为了阻止你的女人嫁给穆斯林，只是用更普遍的术语表达？
Preventing Russian women from marrying Tatars and Bashkirs would be like shooting yourself in the foot. Children of these unions tend to choose the ethnic identity of their Russian mothers and religion follows ethnicity in such cases. If anything, this is a net profit for Orthodox Christians. What's not to like?
Replies: @Felix Keverich, @Talha
但还是有疑问；会是一刀切吗，比如东正教不能嫁给无神论者，佛教徒不能嫁给犹太人（还有，新教+东正教算不算？）等等。或者这真的只是为了阻止你的女人嫁给穆斯林，但只是用更通用的术语表达？
我的意思是，我没有任何冒犯的意思，因为我们试图合法地让非穆斯林男人远离我们的女人，但只是好奇......
和平：
回复：@大红色可怕，@AA
“Protestant + Orthodox count”
No. To get married in the Orthodox Church, you have to be Orthodox. In Russia, most people get married at the ЗАГС (like justice of the peace), and there I guess you can marry any human of the opposite sex who is not your sibling or cousin. Nominally Orthodox people (baptized and wears a cross, comes briefly to church a few times a year) usually go to the ЗАГС, though they could be persuaded to get married in church, probably. But I don’t think the percentage of nominally Orthodox people is sufficient to justify abolishing the ЗАГС.
Lately, I’ve been thinking about the dynamics of divorce in society. Back in the day, if my neighbors got divorced, I would probably have cold relations with them afterward. Nowadays, I have many Russian friends who have happy, stable second marriages. Usually they were impulsive in their youth, had kids young with someone unsuitable who ran off, and have made better decisions the second time around. So it seems to me that to get from where we are to where we want to be, we need much stronger social disapprobation of divorce, while still cutting some slack to people who have a chance to start over. We also need strong disapprobation of adultery and wife-beating. Perhaps we should bring tar and feather. Does anyone know what was the old Russian analogue?
We also need to promote a more reasonable, less fairytaleish ideal of marriage, so that people are more likely to get it right the first time. In particular, we need more open discussion about how to make good choices of a mate, not just within families, but as communities. Making a good choice includes looking not just at apparent personal traits of the potential mate, but also at those of siblings, parents, and grandparents. (Of course, you need to apply some kind of discount the further you move along the family tree, but I haven’t thought through a formula. Just proportional to the degree of genetic similarity?)
I take a quite gentle touch with influencing the decisions of children, and I haven’t had to deal with such momentous decisions yet, but I am thinking about it for the future. My four criteria for a good mate are that they be Orthodox, intelligent, kind, and healthy. (I once met an Igbo satisfying these criteria, so if my daughter were to marry one like him, I could really get y’all riled up.)
Has anyone else had experience talking to their children about marriage?
I've talked to my boys a little about it (they are younger) - plenty of young girls in our local community to pick from. Though I have my eye on two daughters from the same family that I know from Southern California (their father and I went to UCLA together) for my boys. Once my boys get older and start work, I'm going to make a call to their father to see if their family is interested. If not, there are other families I have arranged in my mind in order of priority. This is also assuming they don't meet some good girl in university or whatever. Of course, my niece is also available, but we aren't keen on the cousin thing.
It's always good to have early talks with your kids about this stuff - one of the best things you can do for your kids as a father is to help them find a good spouse.
和平：
Replies: @dfordoom, @The Big Red Scary
回复：@The Big Red Scary
I was alluding to etymological link between slave and Slav. Ae we know Jews and Blacks find the fact of being once a victim very empowering and useful in their struggle with their victimizers. Slavic people on the other hand are ashamed of the fact that once they provided many slaves. For instance ALEXEY TIMOFEYCHEV writes:
What do we see here? (1) a hang-up and ego - we were rather slave owners not slaves, we couldn't possibly be slaves and (2) lack of imagination that in the current world having a history of being slaves has a tangible market value. For instance you can tell all Africans to bug off with their whining about slavery because you yourself were slaves once and you can also make some clams with respect to Jews who dominated slavery business in medieval Europe. See Radhanite: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RadhaniteFurthermore playing the slavery card should be used in making claims to Crimea which in pre-Russia time was a center of slavers getting Slavic and Balto-Slavic and Finnish slaves and it was Russia that destroyed it by bringing Christianity and civilization to Crimea. You could get some PR mileage form it.
But Russian propaganda is stupid and unimaginative as exemplified by this ALEXEY TIMOFEYCHEV guy: we were big and strong and we wuz kangz. This stupid pride so unimaginably stupid that it even does not qualify to be a mortal sin.
Replies: @anonymous coward, @for-the-record, @Dmitry
The etymology is widely accepted, but suspect from a scientific linguistic point of view. Hard to explain how ‘slovene’ became ‘sclavos’, too many irregular sound changes.
更多信息： https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/sclavus#Latin
回复：@melanf
Another reason – the Tatars, Yakuts, etc. have a good relationship with Russians. But Jews and Arabs have such hatred that there is nothing to lose. If (hypothetically) Jews and Arabs treated each other as Russians and Tatars, the official slogans of Israel would be different.
和平：
回复：@秦公爵
"Protestant + Orthodox count"
No. To get married in the Orthodox Church, you have to be Orthodox. In Russia, most people get married at the ЗАГС (like justice of the peace), and there I guess you can marry any human of the opposite sex who is not your sibling or cousin. Nominally Orthodox people (baptized and wears a cross, comes briefly to church a few times a year) usually go to the ЗАГС, though they could be persuaded to get married in church, probably. But I don't think the percentage of nominally Orthodox people is sufficient to justify abolishing the ЗАГС.
Lately, I've been thinking about the dynamics of divorce in society. Back in the day, if my neighbors got divorced, I would probably have cold relations with them afterward. Nowadays, I have many Russian friends who have happy, stable second marriages. Usually they were impulsive in their youth, had kids young with someone unsuitable who ran off, and have made better decisions the second time around. So it seems to me that to get from where we are to where we want to be, we need much stronger social disapprobation of divorce, while still cutting some slack to people who have a chance to start over. We also need strong disapprobation of adultery and wife-beating. Perhaps we should bring tar and feather. Does anyone know what was the old Russian analogue?
We also need to promote a more reasonable, less fairytaleish ideal of marriage, so that people are more likely to get it right the first time. In particular, we need more open discussion about how to make good choices of a mate, not just within families, but as communities. Making a good choice includes looking not just at apparent personal traits of the potential mate, but also at those of siblings, parents, and grandparents. (Of course, you need to apply some kind of discount the further you move along the family tree, but I haven't thought through a formula. Just proportional to the degree of genetic similarity?)
I take a quite gentle touch with influencing the decisions of children, and I haven't had to deal with such momentous decisions yet, but I am thinking about it for the future. My four criteria for a good mate are that they be Orthodox, intelligent, kind, and healthy. (I once met an Igbo satisfying these criteria, so if my daughter were to marry one like him, I could really get y'all riled up.)
Has anyone else had experience talking to their children about marriage?
回复：@Talha，@melanf
I remember reading that when I looked it up a while back. It seems that certain churches make exceptions for Roman Catholics, but are pretty hostile to intermarriage with generic Christians.
You are batting them out the park. This is great advice. In essence, you are asking for a return to a healthy mode of patriarchy where the father and family are involved in the decision process for marriage.
It seems very natural for people to prefer that one’s kids marry within people of their cultural background due to compatibility reasons, but if all you find are foolish, violent Russians then it would be a failure on your part as a father to hand your daughter over to one of them. Maybe look for a Ukrainian (you know to rile up people 😉 ).
I’ve talked to my daughter about expectations for a while now – it’s nice to be on the same page on the main issues. One thing I realize though are girls seem to be unrealistic and naive about a lot of things. They definitely need a coach to help guide them away from troublesome guys. My boys are excited about getting a brother-in-law and want a say in the matter (funny guys).
I’ve talked to my boys a little about it (they are younger) – plenty of young girls in our local community to pick from. Though I have my eye on two daughters from the same family that I know from Southern California (their father and I went to UCLA together) for my boys. Once my boys get older and start work, I’m going to make a call to their father to see if their family is interested. If not, there are other families I have arranged in my mind in order of priority. This is also assuming they don’t meet some good girl in university or whatever. Of course, my niece is also available, but we aren’t keen on the cousin thing.
It’s always good to have early talks with your kids about this stuff – one of the best things you can do for your kids as a father is to help them find a good spouse.
和平：
That was the thing about patriarchy. It worked. Men benefited from it, and women benefited from it. And society benefited from it. When did we in the West decide that everything that worked well should be scrapped?
回复：@Talha，@Rosie
回复：@Talha、@Toronto 俄语
回复：@Talha
The level of animosity is anomalous – Jewish and Arab ethno-nationalism are fairly recently imported ideologies in the ME. It was not like this about a century ago; there were many sizable indigenous Jewish communities across the Muslim world.
和平：
Jewish and Arab tribal nationalism (fuck the goyim/khuffar) are not recent import ideologies at all, but ancient and abiding ideologies core to shitty semitic peoples and their endogamous mating patterns. Of course the communities could co-exist with one another for a long time, just as the various jati communities across South Asia have, but that was predicated on clear social boundaries and barriers between communities with segregated social lives. What the 20th century "modernity" brought to the Middle East wasn't the spark of race war, but rather the destruction of traditional socio-economic boundaries that kept communities in their place leading to more contact and more competition.
回复：@Talha
I've talked to my boys a little about it (they are younger) - plenty of young girls in our local community to pick from. Though I have my eye on two daughters from the same family that I know from Southern California (their father and I went to UCLA together) for my boys. Once my boys get older and start work, I'm going to make a call to their father to see if their family is interested. If not, there are other families I have arranged in my mind in order of priority. This is also assuming they don't meet some good girl in university or whatever. Of course, my niece is also available, but we aren't keen on the cousin thing.
It's always good to have early talks with your kids about this stuff - one of the best things you can do for your kids as a father is to help them find a good spouse.
和平：
Replies: @dfordoom, @The Big Red Scary
That’s certainly what is needed.
That was the thing about patriarchy. It worked. Men benefited from it, and women benefited from it. And society benefited from it. When did we in the West decide that everything that worked well should be scrapped?
Since my wife was a convert, her parents didn't really expect to be involved in whatever she was up to as far as finding a mate; apparently, the extent of their advice to her before she left for university was simply "use protection". Her older sister had hooked up with a man she met in university - a marriage that eventually ended up in disaster.
So my wife's father was not expecting to be meeting with me as basically the *first* step in the process. But, I saw that once it was clear that he was going to be allowed the space to be able to function as a father, that his opinion was going to seriously be taken into consideration and that his daughter was down with it - he asked me all the right questions to make sure his daughter wasn't getting herself into a mess. Now that I think back on it, I'm a bit amazed at how her mother naturally also let the father take the reigns.
It's a very natural and innate thing, I think you actually have to have it programmed out of you.
和平：
回复：@iffen，@Rosie
BTW I think it's great that Israel is opening up some space for ethnonationalism in polite society.
回复：@Talha，@The Big Red Scary
"Protestant + Orthodox count"
No. To get married in the Orthodox Church, you have to be Orthodox. In Russia, most people get married at the ЗАГС (like justice of the peace), and there I guess you can marry any human of the opposite sex who is not your sibling or cousin. Nominally Orthodox people (baptized and wears a cross, comes briefly to church a few times a year) usually go to the ЗАГС, though they could be persuaded to get married in church, probably. But I don't think the percentage of nominally Orthodox people is sufficient to justify abolishing the ЗАГС.
Lately, I've been thinking about the dynamics of divorce in society. Back in the day, if my neighbors got divorced, I would probably have cold relations with them afterward. Nowadays, I have many Russian friends who have happy, stable second marriages. Usually they were impulsive in their youth, had kids young with someone unsuitable who ran off, and have made better decisions the second time around. So it seems to me that to get from where we are to where we want to be, we need much stronger social disapprobation of divorce, while still cutting some slack to people who have a chance to start over. We also need strong disapprobation of adultery and wife-beating. Perhaps we should bring tar and feather. Does anyone know what was the old Russian analogue?
We also need to promote a more reasonable, less fairytaleish ideal of marriage, so that people are more likely to get it right the first time. In particular, we need more open discussion about how to make good choices of a mate, not just within families, but as communities. Making a good choice includes looking not just at apparent personal traits of the potential mate, but also at those of siblings, parents, and grandparents. (Of course, you need to apply some kind of discount the further you move along the family tree, but I haven't thought through a formula. Just proportional to the degree of genetic similarity?)
I take a quite gentle touch with influencing the decisions of children, and I haven't had to deal with such momentous decisions yet, but I am thinking about it for the future. My four criteria for a good mate are that they be Orthodox, intelligent, kind, and healthy. (I once met an Igbo satisfying these criteria, so if my daughter were to marry one like him, I could really get y'all riled up.)
Has anyone else had experience talking to their children about marriage?
回复：@Talha，@melanf
Since the 18th century it is possible to marry any non-Orthodox Christian
我站得住了。
Having done some more reading, it seems that at least some Patriarchates allow someone whose had a Trinitarian baptism to marry an Orthodox person in the Orthodox Church, so long as they agree to raise the children as Orthodox. And there is one famous example of such a marriage, with a later conversion: Grand Duchess Elizabeth Feodorovna.
However, even in the decadent West, I don't know a single priest who would perform such a marriage without explicit permission from the Bishop, and I've personally only seen examples of conversions followed by marriages.
但还是有疑问；会是一刀切吗，比如东正教不能嫁给无神论者，佛教徒不能嫁给犹太人（还有，新教+东正教算不算？）等等。或者这真的只是为了阻止你的女人嫁给穆斯林，但只是用更通用的术语表达？
我的意思是，我没有任何冒犯的意思，因为我们试图合法地让非穆斯林男人远离我们的女人，但只是好奇......
和平：
回复：@大红色可怕，@AA
>或者这真的只是为了阻止你的女人嫁给穆斯林，只是用更普遍的术语表达？
阻止俄罗斯妇女与鞑靼人和巴什基尔人结婚无异于搬起石头砸自己的脚。这些联盟的孩子往往会选择俄罗斯母亲的种族身份，在这种情况下，宗教信仰遵循种族。如果说有什么不同的话，那就是东正教基督徒的净利润。有什么不喜欢的？
与低等种族的人通婚？虽然鞑靼人与黑人不同，而且其后代能够同化，但这仍然会降低基因库。有更好的方法来控制穆斯林人口。我会作为难民送到芬兰。
回复：@Jaakko Raipala
从东正教的角度来看，这是完全有道理的。你所概述的关于后代的情况也解释了为什么乌里玛非常非常坚决地禁止穆斯林男性与伊斯兰领土之外的犹太或基督教女性结婚（尽管通常是允许的）。
和平：
I was alluding to etymological link between slave and Slav. Ae we know Jews and Blacks find the fact of being once a victim very empowering and useful in their struggle with their victimizers. Slavic people on the other hand are ashamed of the fact that once they provided many slaves. For instance ALEXEY TIMOFEYCHEV writes:
What do we see here? (1) a hang-up and ego - we were rather slave owners not slaves, we couldn't possibly be slaves and (2) lack of imagination that in the current world having a history of being slaves has a tangible market value. For instance you can tell all Africans to bug off with their whining about slavery because you yourself were slaves once and you can also make some clams with respect to Jews who dominated slavery business in medieval Europe. See Radhanite: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RadhaniteFurthermore playing the slavery card should be used in making claims to Crimea which in pre-Russia time was a center of slavers getting Slavic and Balto-Slavic and Finnish slaves and it was Russia that destroyed it by bringing Christianity and civilization to Crimea. You could get some PR mileage form it.
But Russian propaganda is stupid and unimaginative as exemplified by this ALEXEY TIMOFEYCHEV guy: we were big and strong and we wuz kangz. This stupid pride so unimaginably stupid that it even does not qualify to be a mortal sin.
Replies: @anonymous coward, @for-the-record, @Dmitry
Regarding the slave trade in Slavs, there was a very interesting, albeit politically incorrect, book on this (in French) a few years ago that more or less disappeared down the memory hole: La traite des Slaves du VIIIe au XVIIIe siècle by Alexandre Skirda, a French historian of Russian/Ukrainian origin.
从评论：
Translation of the parts in bold:
The author clearly distinguishes between two Slav(e) trades: the Western trade in Central Europe, and the Eastern trade which ravaged the area from Poland to the Urals. The first lasted only 300 years, from the 8th to the 11th centuries; the second, which also began in the 8th century, lasted for a thousand years.
The 2002 Ukrainian Encyclopedia estimates at 2- 2.5 million the number of slaves taken by the Tatars in Ukraine, Belorussia and Moscovy between 1482 and 1760, a [very] considerable number taking into account that the population of these regions between these dates can be estimated at 5 or 6 million inhabitants.
Blonde cargoes: Finnish children in the slave markets of medieval Crimea
https://mikedashhistory.com/2015/01/15/blonde-cargoes-finnish-children-in-the-slave-markets-of-medieval-crimea/
SLAVE TRADE IN THE EARLY MODERN CRIMEA FROM THE PERSPECTIVE OF CHRISTIAN,MUSLIM, AND JEWISH SOURCES, MIKHAIL KIZILOV
http://www.academia.edu/2971600/Slave_Trade_in_the_Early_Modern_Crimea_From_the_Perspective_of_Christian_Muslim_and_Jewish_Sources
Slaves, Money Lenders, and Prisoner Guards: The Jews and the Trade in Slaves and Captives in the Crimean Khanate, Mikhail Kizilov
https://books.google.com/books/about/Slaves_Money_Lenders_and_Prisoner_Guards.html?id=4r6vnQEACAAJ
Crimean–Nogai raids into East Slavic lands
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean–Nogai_raids_into_East_Slavic_lands
My point was that Russia's PR narrative should play the importance of Russia conquering Crimea in 18 century because of it being the center of international slavery run by Muslim and Jewish gangs. Tartars were just subcontracted to perform the raids and bring the slaves though sometimes they had insiders in Russia and Poland who helped them find their victims. Russia should play the role as being the civilizing force.
回复：@for-the-record，@melanf
>或者这真的只是为了阻止你的女人嫁给穆斯林，只是用更普遍的术语表达？
Preventing Russian women from marrying Tatars and Bashkirs would be like shooting yourself in the foot. Children of these unions tend to choose the ethnic identity of their Russian mothers and religion follows ethnicity in such cases. If anything, this is a net profit for Orthodox Christians. What's not to like?
Replies: @Felix Keverich, @Talha
与低等种族的人通婚？虽然鞑靼人与黑人不同，而且其后代能够同化，但这仍然会降低基因库。有更好的方法来控制穆斯林人口。我会作为难民送到芬兰。
I would love to fill our refugee quota with Tatars instead of Africans and Arabs.
Especially if it's Volga Tatars. Crimean Tatars often look suspiciously brown and they might have Greek admixture but the others seem to look like good Eastern Europeans and Mongoloids.
回复：@The Big Red Scary
>或者这真的只是为了阻止你的女人嫁给穆斯林，只是用更普遍的术语表达？
Preventing Russian women from marrying Tatars and Bashkirs would be like shooting yourself in the foot. Children of these unions tend to choose the ethnic identity of their Russian mothers and religion follows ethnicity in such cases. If anything, this is a net profit for Orthodox Christians. What's not to like?
Replies: @Felix Keverich, @Talha
从东正教的角度来看，这是完全有道理的。你所概述的关于后代的情况也解释了为什么乌里玛非常非常坚决地禁止穆斯林男性与伊斯兰领土之外的犹太或基督教女性结婚（尽管通常是允许的）。
和平：
That was the thing about patriarchy. It worked. Men benefited from it, and women benefited from it. And society benefited from it. When did we in the West decide that everything that worked well should be scrapped?
回复：@Talha，@Rosie
Indeed – and frankly, men take to it naturally, like fish to water. I saw this in my own experience.
Since my wife was a convert, her parents didn’t really expect to be involved in whatever she was up to as far as finding a mate; apparently, the extent of their advice to her before she left for university was simply “use protection”. Her older sister had hooked up with a man she met in university – a marriage that eventually ended up in disaster.
So my wife’s father was not expecting to be meeting with me as basically the *第一的* step in the process. But, I saw that once it was clear that he was going to be allowed the space to be able to function as a father, that his opinion was going to seriously be taken into consideration and that his daughter was down with it – he asked me all the right questions to make sure his daughter wasn’t getting herself into a mess. Now that I think back on it, I’m a bit amazed at how her mother naturally also let the father take the reigns.
It’s a very natural and innate thing, I think you actually have to have it programmed out of you.
和平：
It’s a very natural and innate thing
Don't sell yourself short, Talha, it was all dependent on your charm.
回复：@Talha
回复：@Talha
与低等种族的人通婚？虽然鞑靼人与黑人不同，而且其后代能够同化，但这仍然会降低基因库。有更好的方法来控制穆斯林人口。我会作为难民送到芬兰。
回复：@Jaakko Raipala
I would love to fill our refugee quota with Tatars instead of Africans and Arabs.
Especially if it’s Volga Tatars. Crimean Tatars often look suspiciously brown and they might have Greek admixture but the others seem to look like good Eastern Europeans and Mongoloids.
Yeah, the Russian state should be helping Volga Tatars emigrate to Europe. They'll be a natural Russia-friendly ruling class once Europe is majority Muslim.
Regarding the slave trade in Slavs, there was a very interesting, albeit politically incorrect, book on this (in French) a few years ago that more or less disappeared down the memory hole: La traite des Slaves du VIIIe au XVIIIe siècle by Alexandre Skirda, a French historian of Russian/Ukrainian origin.
Translation of the parts in bold:从评论：
The author clearly distinguishes between two Slav(e) trades: the Western trade in Central Europe, and the Eastern trade which ravaged the area from Poland to the Urals. The first lasted only 300 years, from the 8th to the 11th centuries; the second, which also began in the 8th century, lasted for a thousand years.
The 2002 Ukrainian Encyclopedia estimates at 2- 2.5 million the number of slaves taken by the Tatars in Ukraine, Belorussia and Moscovy between 1482 and 1760, a [very] considerable number taking into account that the population of these regions between these dates can be estimated at 5 or 6 million inhabitants.
回复：@utu
Why is it incorrect? Because of ethnic identity of slavers? Jews?
Blonde cargoes: Finnish children in the slave markets of medieval Crimea
https://mikedashhistory.com/2015/01/15/blonde-cargoes-finnish-children-in-the-slave-markets-of-medieval-crimea/
SLAVE TRADE IN THE EARLY MODERN CRIMEA FROM THE PERSPECTIVE OF CHRISTIAN,MUSLIM, AND JEWISH SOURCES, MIKHAIL KIZILOV
http://www.academia.edu/2971600/Slave_Trade_in_the_Early_Modern_Crimea_From_the_Perspective_of_Christian_Muslim_and_Jewish_Sources
Slaves, Money Lenders, and Prisoner Guards: The Jews and the Trade in Slaves and Captives in the Crimean Khanate, Mikhail Kizilov
https://books.google.com/books/about/Slaves_Money_Lenders_and_Prisoner_Guards.html?id=4r6vnQEACAAJ
Crimean–Nogai raids into East Slavic lands
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean–Nogai_raids_into_East_Slavic_lands
My point was that Russia’s PR narrative should play the importance of Russia conquering Crimea in 18 century because of it being the center of international slavery run by Muslim and Jewish gangs. Tartars were just subcontracted to perform the raids and bring the slaves though sometimes they had insiders in Russia and Poland who helped them find their victims. Russia should play the role as being the civilizing force.
Why is it incorrect? Because of ethnic identity of slavers? Jews?
Also, and perhaps of more importance in multicultural France, the role of Islam. As summarized in the same review:
Les responsabilités de l’islam, « civilisation esclavagiste par excellence » (F. Braudel)
My point was that Russia’s PR narrative should play the importance of Russia conquering Crimea in 18 century because of it being the center of international slavery run by Muslim and Jewish gangs . . . Russia should play the role as being the civilizing force.
AbsoIutely, I agree with you, but that doesn't change the fact that in this day and age it is "politically incorrect".
Blonde cargoes: Finnish children in the slave markets of medieval Crimea
https://mikedashhistory.com/2015/01/15/blonde-cargoes-finnish-children-in-the-slave-markets-of-medieval-crimea/
SLAVE TRADE IN THE EARLY MODERN CRIMEA FROM THE PERSPECTIVE OF CHRISTIAN,MUSLIM, AND JEWISH SOURCES, MIKHAIL KIZILOV
http://www.academia.edu/2971600/Slave_Trade_in_the_Early_Modern_Crimea_From_the_Perspective_of_Christian_Muslim_and_Jewish_Sources
Slaves, Money Lenders, and Prisoner Guards: The Jews and the Trade in Slaves and Captives in the Crimean Khanate, Mikhail Kizilov
https://books.google.com/books/about/Slaves_Money_Lenders_and_Prisoner_Guards.html?id=4r6vnQEACAAJ
Crimean–Nogai raids into East Slavic lands
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean–Nogai_raids_into_East_Slavic_lands
My point was that Russia's PR narrative should play the importance of Russia conquering Crimea in 18 century because of it being the center of international slavery run by Muslim and Jewish gangs. Tartars were just subcontracted to perform the raids and bring the slaves though sometimes they had insiders in Russia and Poland who helped them find their victims. Russia should play the role as being the civilizing force.
回复：@for-the-record，@melanf
Why is it incorrect? Because of ethnic identity of slavers? Jews?
Also, and perhaps of more importance in multicultural France, the role of Islam. As summarized in the same review:
Les responsabilités de l’islam, « civilisation esclavagiste par excellence » (F. Braudel)
My point was that Russia’s PR narrative should play the importance of Russia conquering Crimea in 18 century because of it being the center of international slavery run by Muslim and Jewish gangs . . . Russia should play the role as being the civilizing force.
AbsoIutely, I agree with you, but that doesn’t change the fact that in this day and age it is “politically incorrect”.
A good example of how US domestic politics works: 3 days ago the “rising Democratic star” Ocasio-Cortez described Israel as an occupation force.
Within 24 hours none other than Joe Lieberman pens an op-ed urging Democratic voters in her district to vote third party in the general election. I didn’t even realise this Lieberman dude was still alive, but somehow his opinion is top news:
https://www.google.com/search?q=lieberman+vs+Ocasio-Cortez
Blonde cargoes: Finnish children in the slave markets of medieval Crimea
https://mikedashhistory.com/2015/01/15/blonde-cargoes-finnish-children-in-the-slave-markets-of-medieval-crimea/
SLAVE TRADE IN THE EARLY MODERN CRIMEA FROM THE PERSPECTIVE OF CHRISTIAN,MUSLIM, AND JEWISH SOURCES, MIKHAIL KIZILOV
http://www.academia.edu/2971600/Slave_Trade_in_the_Early_Modern_Crimea_From_the_Perspective_of_Christian_Muslim_and_Jewish_Sources
Slaves, Money Lenders, and Prisoner Guards: The Jews and the Trade in Slaves and Captives in the Crimean Khanate, Mikhail Kizilov
https://books.google.com/books/about/Slaves_Money_Lenders_and_Prisoner_Guards.html?id=4r6vnQEACAAJ
Crimean–Nogai raids into East Slavic lands
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean–Nogai_raids_into_East_Slavic_lands
My point was that Russia's PR narrative should play the importance of Russia conquering Crimea in 18 century because of it being the center of international slavery run by Muslim and Jewish gangs. Tartars were just subcontracted to perform the raids and bring the slaves though sometimes they had insiders in Russia and Poland who helped them find their victims. Russia should play the role as being the civilizing force.
回复：@for-the-record，@melanf
So this is really a historical narrative in Russia. The specific role of the Crimean khanate is well remembered in Russia.
I was alluding to etymological link between slave and Slav. Ae we know Jews and Blacks find the fact of being once a victim very empowering and useful in their struggle with their victimizers. Slavic people on the other hand are ashamed of the fact that once they provided many slaves. For instance ALEXEY TIMOFEYCHEV writes:
What do we see here? (1) a hang-up and ego - we were rather slave owners not slaves, we couldn't possibly be slaves and (2) lack of imagination that in the current world having a history of being slaves has a tangible market value. For instance you can tell all Africans to bug off with their whining about slavery because you yourself were slaves once and you can also make some clams with respect to Jews who dominated slavery business in medieval Europe. See Radhanite: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RadhaniteFurthermore playing the slavery card should be used in making claims to Crimea which in pre-Russia time was a center of slavers getting Slavic and Balto-Slavic and Finnish slaves and it was Russia that destroyed it by bringing Christianity and civilization to Crimea. You could get some PR mileage form it.
But Russian propaganda is stupid and unimaginative as exemplified by this ALEXEY TIMOFEYCHEV guy: we were big and strong and we wuz kangz. This stupid pride so unimaginably stupid that it even does not qualify to be a mortal sin.
Replies: @anonymous coward, @for-the-record, @Dmitry
Internally, it is useful to be a victim (nationalities which are victims, or perceive themself as victims, are becoming much more patriotic than those which don’t).
But externally (and Karlin is talking about museums for foreigners I think), it is not useful to be a victim. This is because of Just World Hypothesis (if something bad happens to you, people will think you must be responsible in some way).
People always blame those who are mistreated, as being responsible for mistreatments.
With foreigners, it should be promotion of Russian language, literature and music, not of being a victim (it’s not cool when you are abroad, that people think your nationality is a victim).
In Israel, they focus on being a victim internally. They have school trips, partly funded from the federal budget, where they send children to death camps (concentration camps) of Poland, and scare the children a lot and make them cry, even become traumatized. Most of the children are not descendants of European Jews, so the trips are building patriotism and inter-ethnic solidarity amongst different Jewish groups in Israel (which have racial tensions between them historically).
In Russia, there is also a lot of focus now in school, on tragic events of the past, and of overcoming them. And the Immortal Regiment thing is growing every year.
But externally this is not a good idea. The external policy should aim simply viewed to be a normal, increasingly developed European country, which is the reality, regardless of not having the untragic history of England, America, or Sweden.
Focus of building museums (if they are created abroad), should be promotion of Russian language, and cultural contributions.
This is also following a “win-win” model, as it helps foreigners, instead of annoying them.
Currently, Russia Today (with $500 million a year from the budget), is simply annoying Westerners, creating negative attitudes. The same budget funded for museums of culture, or of many centers the Russian language, would help Westerners and improve the diplomatic atmosphere.
回复：@ AaronB，@ reiner Tor
Jews play victims externally, too.
It’s interesting that you never even heard of all visiting dignitaries being led to Yad Vashem as a ritual. I take it as evidence that you’ve never been to Israel. :-)
Jews also ceaselessly lobby for ever more Holocaust Museums and memorials everywhere.
？
I've talked to my boys a little about it (they are younger) - plenty of young girls in our local community to pick from. Though I have my eye on two daughters from the same family that I know from Southern California (their father and I went to UCLA together) for my boys. Once my boys get older and start work, I'm going to make a call to their father to see if their family is interested. If not, there are other families I have arranged in my mind in order of priority. This is also assuming they don't meet some good girl in university or whatever. Of course, my niece is also available, but we aren't keen on the cousin thing.
It's always good to have early talks with your kids about this stuff - one of the best things you can do for your kids as a father is to help them find a good spouse.
和平：
Replies: @dfordoom, @The Big Red Scary
I of course agree, and recognize that some cultures are more compatible than others. Besides, if my daughter actually married an Igbo, POTUS Thorfinnsson would revoke her US citizenship. 🙂
No, of course not. But it seems to me that Russian men follow a fat-tail distribution.
Actually, my daughter is one half khokhlyushka to begin with!
To make it work, it takes more than a family, but a whole community with strong social norms. As I said above, you also need ways to make the patriarch stay in line. I”m really curious how Russians handled that before the revolution. Tar and feather was an English peasant practice.
But there are always exceptions to the rule and the legal system needs to be able to provide protection against a father abusing his authority without also becoming too meddlesome in the affairs and dynamics of a family.
Good luck with your daughter, I hope she finds a very suitable spouse that will love and cherish her and her children.
和平：
回复：@大红吓人，@大红吓人
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snokhachestvo
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/13/%D0%9C%D0%B0%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%B2%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B9_%D0%A1%D0%B2%D0%B5%D0%BA%D0%BE%D1%80_1888.jpg
岳父, by Vladimir Makovskiy
I would love to fill our refugee quota with Tatars instead of Africans and Arabs.
Especially if it's Volga Tatars. Crimean Tatars often look suspiciously brown and they might have Greek admixture but the others seem to look like good Eastern Europeans and Mongoloids.
回复：@The Big Red Scary
Yeah, the Russian state should be helping Volga Tatars emigrate to Europe. They’ll be a natural Russia-friendly ruling class once Europe is majority Muslim.
回复：@The Big Red Scary
我站得住了。
Having done some more reading, it seems that at least some Patriarchates allow someone whose had a Trinitarian baptism to marry an Orthodox person in the Orthodox Church, so long as they agree to raise the children as Orthodox. And there is one famous example of such a marriage, with a later conversion: Grand Duchess Elizabeth Feodorovna.
However, even in the decadent West, I don’t know a single priest who would perform such a marriage without explicit permission from the Bishop, and I’ve personally only seen examples of conversions followed by marriages.
Internally, it is useful to be a victim (nationalities which are victims, or perceive themself as victims, are becoming much more patriotic than those which don't).
But externally (and Karlin is talking about museums for foreigners I think), it is not useful to be a victim. This is because of Just World Hypothesis (if something bad happens to you, people will think you must be responsible in some way).
People always blame those who are mistreated, as being responsible for mistreatments.
With foreigners, it should be promotion of Russian language, literature and music, not of being a victim (it's not cool when you are abroad, that people think your nationality is a victim).
In Israel, they focus on being a victim internally. They have school trips, partly funded from the federal budget, where they send children to death camps (concentration camps) of Poland, and scare the children a lot and make them cry, even become traumatized. Most of the children are not descendants of European Jews, so the trips are building patriotism and inter-ethnic solidarity amongst different Jewish groups in Israel (which have racial tensions between them historically).
In Russia, there is also a lot of focus now in school, on tragic events of the past, and of overcoming them. And the Immortal Regiment thing is growing every year.
But externally this is not a good idea. The external policy should aim simply viewed to be a normal, increasingly developed European country, which is the reality, regardless of not having the untragic history of England, America, or Sweden.
Focus of building museums (if they are created abroad), should be promotion of Russian language, and cultural contributions.
This is also following a "win-win" model, as it helps foreigners, instead of annoying them.
Currently, Russia Today (with $500 million a year from the budget), is simply annoying Westerners, creating negative attitudes. The same budget funded for museums of culture, or of many centers the Russian language, would help Westerners and improve the diplomatic atmosphere.
Replies: @German_reader, @Hyperborean, @reiner Tor
It’s much worse to be seen as a nation of perpetrators (and to accept that judgement), it leads to endless ritual self-denunciations and opens you up to all manner of blackmail and external aggression which you can’t resist because you’ve unilaterally disarmed yourself. AK’s views are much too extreme and one-sided imo, but he isn’t wrong that the historical suffering of Russians is in some ways a useful resource.
回复：@Talha、@Toronto 俄语
He doesn’t legally have that power. He’d have to settle for droning her and her kids.
完全同意。
Absolutely. The vast majority of fathers and daughters (that already have a healthy relationship) will see eye to eye or at least work on producing a healthy compromise on the subject of marriage.
But there are always exceptions to the rule and the legal system needs to be able to provide protection against a father abusing his authority without also becoming too meddlesome in the affairs and dynamics of a family.
Good luck with your daughter, I hope she finds a very suitable spouse that will love and cherish her and her children.
和平：
回复：@ for-the-record
But there are always exceptions to the rule and the legal system needs to be able to provide protection against a father abusing his authority without also becoming too meddlesome in the affairs and dynamics of a family.
Good luck with your daughter, I hope she finds a very suitable spouse that will love and cherish her and her children.
和平：
回复：@大红吓人，@大红吓人
Thank you. I hope the same for yours. With my daughter, it is still early to be talking to her about it much, but not too early to be thinking about it.
But there are always exceptions to the rule and the legal system needs to be able to provide protection against a father abusing his authority without also becoming too meddlesome in the affairs and dynamics of a family.
Good luck with your daughter, I hope she finds a very suitable spouse that will love and cherish her and her children.
和平：
回复：@大红吓人，@大红吓人
You have to make the law first and apply it afterwards. She wasn’t born in the US, so it would be really easy to make a law that would get her on a technicality, or at least force her to make hard choices.
他有 *力量* but not, arguably, the legal *权威*. Has SCOTUS ruled on extra-judicial, extra-territorial executions of US citizens?
She wasn’t born in the US, so it would be really easy to make a law that would get her on a technicality
If she marries an "alien", her children won't have US citizenship unless she has lived in the US for at least 5 years (and at least 2 years after age 14).
回复：@The Big Red Scary
回复：@Talha、@Toronto 俄语
In no way really. It was a usual thing that a patriarch sexually abused the wives of his sons and no one did anything about it, such was his power and the custom.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snokhachestvo
岳父, by Vladimir Makovskiy
Anyway, I admit when I read about that law, my first reaction was "Nice, I'd like something like that as well".
Will be interesting to see how this will affect Israel's image in the next few years.
回复：@Dmitry、@Dave Pinsen
I thought the issue wasn’t interfaith marriages per se, but marriages with Palestinians, after a Palestinian who married an Israeli used his access to Israel to commit a terrorist attack. IIRC.
You're right, apparently Palestinians from the occupied territories who marry an Israeli are barred from acquiring Israeli citizenship and living in Israel:
https://www.tabletmag.com/scroll/191711/knesset-extends-law-forbidding-palestinians-married-to-israelis-from-living-in-jewish-state
I wouldn't call that criminalizing interfaith marriages though.
I thought the issue wasn't interfaith marriages per se, but marriages with Palestinians, after a Palestinian who married an Israeli used his access to Israel to commit a terrorist attack. IIRC.
回复：@German_reader
You’re right, apparently Palestinians from the occupied territories who marry an Israeli are barred from acquiring Israeli citizenship and living in Israel:
https://www.tabletmag.com/scroll/191711/knesset-extends-law-forbidding-palestinians-married-to-israelis-from-living-in-jewish-state
I wouldn’t call that criminalizing interfaith marriages though.
Since my wife was a convert, her parents didn't really expect to be involved in whatever she was up to as far as finding a mate; apparently, the extent of their advice to her before she left for university was simply "use protection". Her older sister had hooked up with a man she met in university - a marriage that eventually ended up in disaster.
So my wife's father was not expecting to be meeting with me as basically the *first* step in the process. But, I saw that once it was clear that he was going to be allowed the space to be able to function as a father, that his opinion was going to seriously be taken into consideration and that his daughter was down with it - he asked me all the right questions to make sure his daughter wasn't getting herself into a mess. Now that I think back on it, I'm a bit amazed at how her mother naturally also let the father take the reigns.
It's a very natural and innate thing, I think you actually have to have it programmed out of you.
和平：
回复：@iffen，@Rosie
It’s a very natural and innate thing
Don’t sell yourself short, Talha, it was all dependent on your charm.
LOL! Well, I can say I have a great relationship with my in-laws (alhamdulillah), who I just called to say farewell to a couple of days ago; they're off to their annual 6-weeks vacation in Sweden. Very kick-back people, very easy to get along with. I tend not to discuss too much politics with them though, they are fairly liberal (even with now two hijab-wearing daughters).
I'll ask them about the immigration issues and what not when they return and report back.
和平：
回复：@Hyperborean
Internally, it is useful to be a victim (nationalities which are victims, or perceive themself as victims, are becoming much more patriotic than those which don't).
But externally (and Karlin is talking about museums for foreigners I think), it is not useful to be a victim. This is because of Just World Hypothesis (if something bad happens to you, people will think you must be responsible in some way).
People always blame those who are mistreated, as being responsible for mistreatments.
With foreigners, it should be promotion of Russian language, literature and music, not of being a victim (it's not cool when you are abroad, that people think your nationality is a victim).
In Israel, they focus on being a victim internally. They have school trips, partly funded from the federal budget, where they send children to death camps (concentration camps) of Poland, and scare the children a lot and make them cry, even become traumatized. Most of the children are not descendants of European Jews, so the trips are building patriotism and inter-ethnic solidarity amongst different Jewish groups in Israel (which have racial tensions between them historically).
In Russia, there is also a lot of focus now in school, on tragic events of the past, and of overcoming them. And the Immortal Regiment thing is growing every year.
But externally this is not a good idea. The external policy should aim simply viewed to be a normal, increasingly developed European country, which is the reality, regardless of not having the untragic history of England, America, or Sweden.
Focus of building museums (if they are created abroad), should be promotion of Russian language, and cultural contributions.
This is also following a "win-win" model, as it helps foreigners, instead of annoying them.
Currently, Russia Today (with $500 million a year from the budget), is simply annoying Westerners, creating negative attitudes. The same budget funded for museums of culture, or of many centers the Russian language, would help Westerners and improve the diplomatic atmosphere.
Replies: @German_reader, @Hyperborean, @reiner Tor
In some old Japanese texts there is the idea that the virtue of the Japanese race has protected the Japanese people – most strikingly in the divine winds which crushed the Mongol invasion fleet twice and preserved Japanese independence, but also existing as a undertone in other events.
Its also the notion of karma.
And the idea underlying the historical bits of the Old Testament.
The only caveat is, what is truly misfortune.
But how much truth is there to this Just World Hypothesis? I’ve only seen it in explanations for anti-Semitism, but then the Jewish practice of advertising their persecution makes little sense.
I think most people usually identify with the victims.
Replies: @Hyperborean, @iffen, @Dmitry
It’s a very natural and innate thing
Don't sell yourself short, Talha, it was all dependent on your charm.
回复：@Talha
LOL! Well, I can say I have a great relationship with my in-laws (alhamdulillah), who I just called to say farewell to a couple of days ago; they’re off to their annual 6-weeks vacation in Sweden. Very kick-back people, very easy to get along with. I tend not to discuss too much politics with them though, they are fairly liberal (even with now two hijab-wearing daughters).
I’ll ask them about the immigration issues and what not when they return and report back.
和平：
回复：@Talha
LOL! Well, I can say I have a great relationship with my in-laws (alhamdulillah), who I just called to say farewell to a couple of days ago; they're off to their annual 6-weeks vacation in Sweden. Very kick-back people, very easy to get along with. I tend not to discuss too much politics with them though, they are fairly liberal (even with now two hijab-wearing daughters).
I'll ask them about the immigration issues and what not when they return and report back.
和平：
回复：@Hyperborean
What region are they visiting? Some regions are relatively fine, others are a disaster.
They own a little flat near a beautiful lake in a town called Ulricehamn. It's about an hour due East of Gottenburg. It was a quaint little town when I visited back in early 2000's - no idea if it has immigration or what now. It might even have immigrants, but just enough of them to add a bit of flavor to the town without the headaches. I don't know, I'll ask them this time around.
和平：
回复：@Talha
They own a little flat near a beautiful lake in a town called Ulricehamn. It’s about an hour due East of Gottenburg. It was a quaint little town when I visited back in early 2000’s – no idea if it has immigration or what now. It might even have immigrants, but just enough of them to add a bit of flavor to the town without the headaches. I don’t know, I’ll ask them this time around.
和平：
That was the thing about patriarchy. It worked. Men benefited from it, and women benefited from it. And society benefited from it. When did we in the West decide that everything that worked well should be scrapped?
回复：@Talha，@Rosie
The question is not whether it worked. Obviously, it caused a great deal of misery, even if it did “work” in some sense. The question is whether or not it is necessary. As long as Amish girls keep marrying young men of their own choosing and having families large enough to double the population every twenty years, there is no good reason to consider nor broach the idea of forcing women into marriages they do not want. Remember, the fact that something past was better than what replaced it doesn’t mean a third way wouldn’t be better still.
BTW I think it’s great that Israel is opening up some space for ethnonationalism in polite society.
The term I used that kickstarted this subtopic was “healthy mode of patriarchy”. The assumption is that it needs to be devoid of abuse of power and extremes that would naturally cause another revolt against it. It is an acknowledgment that not every manifestation of patriarchy was positive, just like marriage can be an abused institution but it’s probably the best shot we have.
和平：
回复：@Rosie
As for matriarchy and patriarchy, men and women have their comparative advantages. I defer to my wife on many matters, either because she's right where I am wrong, or because I don't feel it's worth conflict. There are, however, some issues on which I stand my ground and put up a respectful fight, and though my wife can be quite upset about it in the moment, she has always come around in the end, which I take as a sign that I am choosing my battles well.
回复：@Rosie
回复：@ for-the-record
She wasn’t born in the US, so it would be really easy to make a law that would get her on a technicality
If she marries an “alien”, her children won’t have US citizenship unless she has lived in the US for at least 5 years (and at least 2 years after age 14).
Yes, I'm familiar with the rules. Had to show my report card from kindergarten as part of the ritual of acquiring US citizenship for her. She was born stateless, so we had to do something. Anyway, I don't really care whether my grandchildren are US citizens.
Since my wife was a convert, her parents didn't really expect to be involved in whatever she was up to as far as finding a mate; apparently, the extent of their advice to her before she left for university was simply "use protection". Her older sister had hooked up with a man she met in university - a marriage that eventually ended up in disaster.
So my wife's father was not expecting to be meeting with me as basically the *first* step in the process. But, I saw that once it was clear that he was going to be allowed the space to be able to function as a father, that his opinion was going to seriously be taken into consideration and that his daughter was down with it - he asked me all the right questions to make sure his daughter wasn't getting herself into a mess. Now that I think back on it, I'm a bit amazed at how her mother naturally also let the father take the reigns.
It's a very natural and innate thing, I think you actually have to have it programmed out of you.
和平：
回复：@iffen，@Rosie
That was just for show. 😉
Smart women let their men play the role, but they know how to make sure they are heard as well.
和平：
回复：@The Big Red Scary
回复：@ AaronB，@ reiner Tor
Its also the notion of karma.
And the idea underlying the historical bits of the Old Testament.
The only caveat is, what is truly misfortune.
回复：@Talha
Smart women let their men play the role, but they know how to make sure they are heard as well.
和平：
In Chinatown in some large western city where I once lived, I remarked to a Chinese friend that I had often noticed elderly couples out for a walk with the man some steps ahead and the woman following behind him. The Chinese friend pointed out that although he may walk ahead, she is constantly critiquing every step he makes.
BTW I think it's great that Israel is opening up some space for ethnonationalism in polite society.
回复：@Talha，@The Big Red Scary
The term I used that kickstarted this subtopic was “healthy mode of patriarchy”. The assumption is that it needs to be devoid of abuse of power and extremes that would naturally cause another revolt against it. It is an acknowledgment that not every manifestation of patriarchy was positive, just like marriage can be an abused institution but it’s probably the best shot we have.
和平：
I hear you. Forgive ny sloppy reading. I've been busy battling heathens over on Reed's thread.
回复：@The Big Red Scary，@Talha
Before you “alt right” tards complain about Israel being an Ethno State for Jews well. It kinda of is but if you convert to Judaism even those fake “reform” and “conservative” denomination you are considered a Jew under Israeli law and are covered under the right of return law. Yes that is hardcore ethno nationalism there. I know how about two million alt righters “convert” to Judaism then move to Israel take over the government and turn it into a white ethno state?
She wasn’t born in the US, so it would be really easy to make a law that would get her on a technicality
If she marries an "alien", her children won't have US citizenship unless she has lived in the US for at least 5 years (and at least 2 years after age 14).
回复：@The Big Red Scary
Yes, I’m familiar with the rules. Had to show my report card from kindergarten as part of the ritual of acquiring US citizenship for her. She was born stateless, so we had to do something. Anyway, I don’t really care whether my grandchildren are US citizens.
Smart women let their men play the role, but they know how to make sure they are heard as well.
和平：
回复：@The Big Red Scary
In Chinatown in some large western city where I once lived, I remarked to a Chinese friend that I had often noticed elderly couples out for a walk with the man some steps ahead and the woman following behind him. The Chinese friend pointed out that although he may walk ahead, she is constantly critiquing every step he makes.
BTW I think it's great that Israel is opening up some space for ethnonationalism in polite society.
回复：@Talha，@The Big Red Scary
I don’t know what other people had in mind, but it was I who broached the topic– not of forcing your children into marriages that they don’t want, but rather of establishing social norms that would help your children make good choices. Ultimately, I try to cultivate a good relationship with my children, so that they can talk to me about their decisions, and so that I can trust that they will make mostly good ones.
As for matriarchy and patriarchy, men and women have their comparative advantages. I defer to my wife on many matters, either because she’s right where I am wrong, or because I don’t feel it’s worth conflict. There are, however, some issues on which I stand my ground and put up a respectful fight, and though my wife can be quite upset about it in the moment, she has always come around in the end, which I take as a sign that I am choosing my battles well.
The term I used that kickstarted this subtopic was “healthy mode of patriarchy”. The assumption is that it needs to be devoid of abuse of power and extremes that would naturally cause another revolt against it. It is an acknowledgment that not every manifestation of patriarchy was positive, just like marriage can be an abused institution but it’s probably the best shot we have.
和平：
回复：@Rosie
I hear you. Forgive ny sloppy reading. I’ve been busy battling heathens over on Reed’s thread.
Hi Rosie.
After this comment of yours, I spent some of my morning reading Fred Reed's piece, and some of the comments. False dichotomies fly thick and fast, both above and below the fold. Your comments were reasonable, but I would encourage you to always keep separate in your mind the question of the origin of life and the question of the history of life after its origination.
Having grown up "evangelical" in the US, and having converted as an adult to Orthodoxy, the most slowly evolving form of Christianity, I was pre-disposed to anti-Darwinian skepticism. But around the time my daughter was born, I became very interested in biology and the history of life and made a good faith effort to look at the evidence for the "origin of species", which I now find to be very persuasive. I would also note that my arrival at a new appreciation for the history of life coincided with one of the more fruitful periods in my faith.
If you are interested in a fairly up-to-date account of evolutionary theory, which takes into account gene expression and embryonic development, written not by your typical angry atheist but by someone empathetic to faith, I recommend Endless Forms Most Beautiful by Sean Carroll.
Replies: @Rosie, @Mr. Hack
Battling heathens eh? It’s funny, I’ve noticed that on the subject of evolution*, people can look at the exact same evidence and come to completely different conclusions. Not surprising though, if one comes from a believing or disbelieving background, often the evidence buttresses one’s own bias. Just depends on how one is willing to interpret it.
Of course, if one believes, then there really is no need to stick to a strictly naturalistic interpretation for everything.
和平：
*Which subsumes many different theoretical ideas (as for-the-record) pointed out; some that flow quite naturally and some that require a stretch of the imagination.
As for matriarchy and patriarchy, men and women have their comparative advantages. I defer to my wife on many matters, either because she's right where I am wrong, or because I don't feel it's worth conflict. There are, however, some issues on which I stand my ground and put up a respectful fight, and though my wife can be quite upset about it in the moment, she has always come around in the end, which I take as a sign that I am choosing my battles well.
回复：@Rosie
Yes, indeed. That has also been my experience. I haven’t always come to agree with my husband, but at a minimum, I have always understood him, which is good enough.
Internally, it is useful to be a victim (nationalities which are victims, or perceive themself as victims, are becoming much more patriotic than those which don't).
But externally (and Karlin is talking about museums for foreigners I think), it is not useful to be a victim. This is because of Just World Hypothesis (if something bad happens to you, people will think you must be responsible in some way).
People always blame those who are mistreated, as being responsible for mistreatments.
With foreigners, it should be promotion of Russian language, literature and music, not of being a victim (it's not cool when you are abroad, that people think your nationality is a victim).
In Israel, they focus on being a victim internally. They have school trips, partly funded from the federal budget, where they send children to death camps (concentration camps) of Poland, and scare the children a lot and make them cry, even become traumatized. Most of the children are not descendants of European Jews, so the trips are building patriotism and inter-ethnic solidarity amongst different Jewish groups in Israel (which have racial tensions between them historically).
In Russia, there is also a lot of focus now in school, on tragic events of the past, and of overcoming them. And the Immortal Regiment thing is growing every year.
But externally this is not a good idea. The external policy should aim simply viewed to be a normal, increasingly developed European country, which is the reality, regardless of not having the untragic history of England, America, or Sweden.
Focus of building museums (if they are created abroad), should be promotion of Russian language, and cultural contributions.
This is also following a "win-win" model, as it helps foreigners, instead of annoying them.
Currently, Russia Today (with $500 million a year from the budget), is simply annoying Westerners, creating negative attitudes. The same budget funded for museums of culture, or of many centers the Russian language, would help Westerners and improve the diplomatic atmosphere.
Replies: @German_reader, @Hyperborean, @reiner Tor
Jews play victims externally, too.
It’s interesting that you never even heard of all visiting dignitaries being led to Yad Vashem as a ritual. I take it as evidence that you’ve never been to Israel. 🙂
Jews also ceaselessly lobby for ever more Holocaust Museums and memorials everywhere.
回复：@ AaronB，@ reiner Tor
But how much truth is there to this Just World Hypothesis? I’ve only seen it in explanations for anti-Semitism, but then the Jewish practice of advertising their persecution makes little sense.
I think most people usually identify with the victims.
I am not sure. I think it helps much more to be considered a victim nowadays than it did in the past.
But one can see with anti-Jewish websites and comments on the internet that listing the many expulsions Jews went through resonates a great deal with the readers, even without listing why they were expelled.
It is interesting that despite the plethora of lost battles, last stands and national defeats, other people don't really care about insignificant nationalities' suffering.
I think for people to empathise with their suffering they must be considered important in some way.
While real or alleged mistreatment of Jews is assumed to be relevant even to populations that have very little interaction or knowledge of Jews, there is not the same focus on say, Gypsies.
回复：@Jaakko Raipala
I think most people usually identify with the victims.
If this is true then the crucial decision is deciding who is a victim.
Compare how you react to an smelly homeless guy - and even if you are told that the reason is that he was victim of bad family, or physical violence or sexual abuse when he was younger (i.e. something outside his control).
Now compare how you react to a happy uncle with a beautiful wife.
Compare how we all react to Ukraine (I have nothing against Ukraine, but I'm talking about the general attitude everywhere to it - just anger and contempt), and how we react to Scandinavia by comparison.
Yet Ukraine - in a wheel of fortune, is mainly a victim of historical events, and Scandinavia mainly benefitted by historical events.
Now look at who people want to identify with. Do people read interviews or enjoy watching invited to talk shows George Clooney, or do they prefer to watch on talkshows - longrun victims of radiation effects of the Chernobyl accident (only from a sinister curiosity do they want to know about the latter).
Do people like identifying with, and become interested in the life of Clooney, or of victims of Chernobyl accident?
Likewise on a national level. What are the components of Rusophobia (which in the strongest example was believed by Nazis): that Russians are stupid biomass, passive victims, who were raped by Mongolian Golden Horde.
This Western Rusophobia today: that it is a poor country, that everyone is alcoholic, that they are victims, and therefore resentful, and with attitudes symptomatic of bad fortune: anger and resentment.
The additional component (which creates Russia derangement syndrome and cognitive dissonance), that Russia is also somehow powerful (and controlling world events).
-
The reason Jesus is a revolutionary teacher in the Ancient World, is because he wants people to identify with losers. This is a very counter-natural position, and you can also see these ideas earlier being tested in Plato's dialogues. Interlocutors in Plato regard these kind of views (when tested by Socrates) as bizarre, which they are - as they are against our first instincts (which are "strong and fortunate = good", and "weak and unfortunate = bad").
Replies: @Mr. Hack, @Mr. Hack, @German_reader
But how much truth is there to this Just World Hypothesis? I’ve only seen it in explanations for anti-Semitism, but then the Jewish practice of advertising their persecution makes little sense.
I think most people usually identify with the victims.
Replies: @Hyperborean, @iffen, @Dmitry
I am not sure. I think it helps much more to be considered a victim nowadays than it did in the past.
But one can see with anti-Jewish websites and comments on the internet that listing the many expulsions Jews went through resonates a great deal with the readers, even without listing why they were expelled.
It is interesting that despite the plethora of lost battles, last stands and national defeats, other people don’t really care about insignificant nationalities’ suffering.
I think for people to empathise with their suffering they must be considered important in some way.
While real or alleged mistreatment of Jews is assumed to be relevant even to populations that have very little interaction or knowledge of Jews, there is not the same focus on say, Gypsies.
Our politicians and media "empathize" with Jewish suffering because they're paid to do so. If the Germans had won the war and successfully destroyed Jews as a wealthy class in Europe, we wouldn't be hearing much about Jewish suffering and few people would "empathize" with it. Lots of leftist activists push for similar narratives with gypsies but it only succeeds when it can latch onto Holocaust industry which has actual money behind it.
Victimhood narratives currently work for those groups that are either well represented among American elites or who are found useful by American elites for either purposes of domestic policy (eg purchasing the votes of blacks for the Democrats) or foreign policy (eg using Ukrainians against Russia). As long as there's no powerful faction in US politics that wants to ally with Russia, Russian victim narratives will be ignored.
Sometimes victimhood narratives work by historical accident, eg. Finland managed to lobby for all sorts of things from the USSR by using the personality cult of Lenin since he had written about how Russia is oppressing Finland with policy X and Finns must be given Y as a compensation for oppression. Lower level Soviet officials would be terrified of contradicting Lenin. But today Lenin's narratives don't have any effect on Russian officials so Finland has stopped repeating them...
But how much truth is there to this Just World Hypothesis? I’ve only seen it in explanations for anti-Semitism, but then the Jewish practice of advertising their persecution makes little sense.
I think most people usually identify with the victims.
Replies: @Hyperborean, @iffen, @Dmitry
I think most people usually identify with the victims.
If this is true then the crucial decision is deciding who is a victim.
I hear you. Forgive ny sloppy reading. I've been busy battling heathens over on Reed's thread.
回复：@The Big Red Scary，@Talha
Hi Rosie.
After this comment of yours, I spent some of my morning reading Fred Reed’s piece, and some of the comments. False dichotomies fly thick and fast, both above and below the fold. Your comments were reasonable, but I would encourage you to always keep separate in your mind the question of the origin of life and the question of the history of life after its origination.
Having grown up “evangelical” in the US, and having converted as an adult to Orthodoxy, the most slowly evolving form of Christianity, I was pre-disposed to anti-Darwinian skepticism. But around the time my daughter was born, I became very interested in biology and the history of life and made a good faith effort to look at the evidence for the “origin of species”, which I now find to be very persuasive. I would also note that my arrival at a new appreciation for the history of life coincided with one of the more fruitful periods in my faith.
If you are interested in a fairly up-to-date account of evolutionary theory, which takes into account gene expression and embryonic development, written not by your typical angry atheist but by someone empathetic to faith, I recommend Endless Forms Most Beautiful by Sean Carroll.
Why thank you for that recommendation. I may well take a look at it. I very much agree with you that the question of the origin of life is different from the question of the history of life. I don't particularly disagree with the idea of evolution by natural selection. The problem is that something needs to exist before it can be selected for.
回复：@ for-the-record
I too have been following Fred Reed's latest piece here, and was wondering whether you're aware of a recent study that casts some serious aspersion on Darwin's theory of evolution:
https://www.themaven.net/theresurgent/contributors/so-apparently-darwin-was-wrong-really-really-wrong-6V-HdjsskUeoBJcvPxOTGg/回复：@The Big Red Scary
Hi Rosie.
After this comment of yours, I spent some of my morning reading Fred Reed's piece, and some of the comments. False dichotomies fly thick and fast, both above and below the fold. Your comments were reasonable, but I would encourage you to always keep separate in your mind the question of the origin of life and the question of the history of life after its origination.
Having grown up "evangelical" in the US, and having converted as an adult to Orthodoxy, the most slowly evolving form of Christianity, I was pre-disposed to anti-Darwinian skepticism. But around the time my daughter was born, I became very interested in biology and the history of life and made a good faith effort to look at the evidence for the "origin of species", which I now find to be very persuasive. I would also note that my arrival at a new appreciation for the history of life coincided with one of the more fruitful periods in my faith.
If you are interested in a fairly up-to-date account of evolutionary theory, which takes into account gene expression and embryonic development, written not by your typical angry atheist but by someone empathetic to faith, I recommend Endless Forms Most Beautiful by Sean Carroll.
Replies: @Rosie, @Mr. Hack
Why thank you for that recommendation. I may well take a look at it. I very much agree with you that the question of the origin of life is different from the question of the history of life. I don’t particularly disagree with the idea of evolution by natural selection. The problem is that something needs to exist before it can be selected for.
The problem is that something needs to exist before it can be selected for.
For what it's worth (not much I imagine) the "theory of evolution" can be divided into 3 distinct elements:
(1) 生命的起源 (out of primordial soup), which for some miraculous, unexplained reason happened exactly 1 time
(2) arrival of the fittest (i.e., how favorable mutations produce wonderful changes and entirely new species)
(3) 适者生存 (natural selection, e.g., white moths become black during the industrial revolution)
For anyone with a strong feel for mathematics, the last (which most people seem to identify with "evolution") is entirely trivial; the first two, on the other hand, are highly problematic.
Pasteur, after all, is heralded for having refuted the "traditional" theory of spontaneous generation, but it seems that in the primordial soup normal rules don't apply.
Why thank you for that recommendation. I may well take a look at it. I very much agree with you that the question of the origin of life is different from the question of the history of life. I don't particularly disagree with the idea of evolution by natural selection. The problem is that something needs to exist before it can be selected for.
回复：@ for-the-record
The problem is that something needs to exist before it can be selected for.
For what it’s worth (not much I imagine) the “theory of evolution” can be divided into 3 distinct elements:
(1) 生命的起源 (out of primordial soup), which for some miraculous, unexplained reason happened exactly 1 time
(2) arrival of the fittest (i.e., how favorable mutations produce wonderful changes and entirely new species)
(3) 适者生存 (natural selection, e.g., white moths become black during the industrial revolution)
For anyone with a strong feel for mathematics, the last (which most people seem to identify with “evolution”) is entirely trivial; the first two, on the other hand, are highly problematic.
毕竟，巴斯德以驳斥自发产生的“传统”理论而闻名，但似乎在原始汤中，正常规则并不适用。
I am not sure. I think it helps much more to be considered a victim nowadays than it did in the past.
But one can see with anti-Jewish websites and comments on the internet that listing the many expulsions Jews went through resonates a great deal with the readers, even without listing why they were expelled.
It is interesting that despite the plethora of lost battles, last stands and national defeats, other people don't really care about insignificant nationalities' suffering.
I think for people to empathise with their suffering they must be considered important in some way.
While real or alleged mistreatment of Jews is assumed to be relevant even to populations that have very little interaction or knowledge of Jews, there is not the same focus on say, Gypsies.
回复：@Jaakko Raipala
Our politicians and media “empathize” with Jewish suffering because they’re paid to do so. If the Germans had won the war and successfully destroyed Jews as a wealthy class in Europe, we wouldn’t be hearing much about Jewish suffering and few people would “empathize” with it. Lots of leftist activists push for similar narratives with gypsies but it only succeeds when it can latch onto Holocaust industry which has actual money behind it.
Victimhood narratives currently work for those groups that are either well represented among American elites or who are found useful by American elites for either purposes of domestic policy (eg purchasing the votes of blacks for the Democrats) or foreign policy (eg using Ukrainians against Russia). As long as there’s no powerful faction in US politics that wants to ally with Russia, Russian victim narratives will be ignored.
Sometimes victimhood narratives work by historical accident, eg. Finland managed to lobby for all sorts of things from the USSR by using the personality cult of Lenin since he had written about how Russia is oppressing Finland with policy X and Finns must be given Y as a compensation for oppression. Lower level Soviet officials would be terrified of contradicting Lenin. But today Lenin’s narratives don’t have any effect on Russian officials so Finland has stopped repeating them…
Hi Rosie.
After this comment of yours, I spent some of my morning reading Fred Reed's piece, and some of the comments. False dichotomies fly thick and fast, both above and below the fold. Your comments were reasonable, but I would encourage you to always keep separate in your mind the question of the origin of life and the question of the history of life after its origination.
Having grown up "evangelical" in the US, and having converted as an adult to Orthodoxy, the most slowly evolving form of Christianity, I was pre-disposed to anti-Darwinian skepticism. But around the time my daughter was born, I became very interested in biology and the history of life and made a good faith effort to look at the evidence for the "origin of species", which I now find to be very persuasive. I would also note that my arrival at a new appreciation for the history of life coincided with one of the more fruitful periods in my faith.
If you are interested in a fairly up-to-date account of evolutionary theory, which takes into account gene expression and embryonic development, written not by your typical angry atheist but by someone empathetic to faith, I recommend Endless Forms Most Beautiful by Sean Carroll.
Replies: @Rosie, @Mr. Hack
I too have been following Fred Reed’s latest piece here, and was wondering whether you’re aware of a recent study that casts some serious aspersion on Darwin’s theory of evolution:
https://www.themaven.net/theresurgent/contributors/so-apparently-darwin-was-wrong-really-really-wrong-6V-HdjsskUeoBJcvPxOTGg/
I saw your comment over there, and did some reading about the study in question. Here is a pop-sci article with quotes from the authors themselves:
This misconstrues what the study says. The claim is not that %90 of species that *have ever lived* originated in the last 200,000 years, but that %90 of the species *living now* originated in the last 200,000 years. In fact, it is estimated that 99% of all species have gone extinct:https://phys.org/news/2018-05-gene-survey-reveals-facets-evolution.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extinction
The study is interesting and surprising, but does not lend itself to the conclusions that some people want to make.
回复：@先生。 哈克
I too have been following Fred Reed's latest piece here, and was wondering whether you're aware of a recent study that casts some serious aspersion on Darwin's theory of evolution:
https://www.themaven.net/theresurgent/contributors/so-apparently-darwin-was-wrong-really-really-wrong-6V-HdjsskUeoBJcvPxOTGg/回复：@The Big Red Scary
I saw your comment over there, and did some reading about the study in question. Here is a pop-sci article with quotes from the authors themselves:
https://phys.org/news/2018-05-gene-survey-reveals-facets-evolution.html
This misconstrues what the study says. The claim is not that %90 of species that *have ever lived* originated in the last 200,000 years, but that %90 of the species *living now* originated in the last 200,000 years. In fact, it is estimated that 99% of all species have gone extinct:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extinction
The study is interesting and surprising, but does not lend itself to the conclusions that some people want to make.
So, it appears that less than 1% of all species that have ever roamed the earth, are still visible to the modern eye. And these all came into being about 200,000 years ago, including man. Very interesting.
回复：@The Big Red Scary
But how much truth is there to this Just World Hypothesis? I’ve only seen it in explanations for anti-Semitism, but then the Jewish practice of advertising their persecution makes little sense.
I think most people usually identify with the victims.
Replies: @Hyperborean, @iffen, @Dmitry
Compare how you react to an smelly homeless guy – and even if you are told that the reason is that he was victim of bad family, or physical violence or sexual abuse when he was younger (i.e. something outside his control).
Now compare how you react to a happy uncle with a beautiful wife.
Compare how we all react to Ukraine (I have nothing against Ukraine, but I’m talking about the general attitude everywhere to it – just anger and contempt), and how we react to Scandinavia by comparison.
Yet Ukraine – in a wheel of fortune, is mainly a victim of historical events, and Scandinavia mainly benefitted by historical events.
Now look at who people want to identify with. Do people read interviews or enjoy watching invited to talk shows George Clooney, or do they prefer to watch on talkshows – longrun victims of radiation effects of the Chernobyl accident (only from a sinister curiosity do they want to know about the latter).
Do people like identifying with, and become interested in the life of Clooney, or of victims of Chernobyl accident?
Likewise on a national level. What are the components of Rusophobia (which in the strongest example was believed by Nazis): that Russians are stupid biomass, passive victims, who were raped by Mongolian Golden Horde.
This Western Rusophobia today: that it is a poor country, that everyone is alcoholic, that they are victims, and therefore resentful, and with attitudes symptomatic of bad fortune: anger and resentment.
The additional component (which creates Russia derangement syndrome and cognitive dissonance), that Russia is also somehow powerful (and controlling world events).
–
The reason Jesus is a revolutionary teacher in the Ancient World, is because he wants people to identify with losers. This is a very counter-natural position, and you can also see these ideas earlier being tested in Plato’s dialogues. Interlocutors in Plato regard these kind of views (when tested by Socrates) as bizarre, which they are – as they are against our first instincts (which are “strong and fortunate = good”, and “weak and unfortunate = bad”).
http://www.ukrainianmuseum.org/
回复：@ Hyperborean，@ Dmitry
To the degree Ukraine is resented by people in the west it's because of the somewhat questionable elements of Ukrainian nationalism, especially its association with WW2 collaboration with the Germans and antisemitism. This is somewhat counter-balanced however by the perception that Ukrainians have historically been oppressed by great Russian imperialism and suffered horrendously under communism...and that victim status does help Ukraine in the battle for international opinion.No, the anti-Russian narrative is that Russians are dangerous, expansionistic and a threat to Europe. Nothing to do with passive victimhood.
Maybe it's your enthusiasm for neoliberalism, but most people even in the post-Christian West don't just despise others out of sheer contempt for the weak.
回复：@ Dmitry，@ for-the-record
Compare how you react to an smelly homeless guy - and even if you are told that the reason is that he was victim of bad family, or physical violence or sexual abuse when he was younger (i.e. something outside his control).
Now compare how you react to a happy uncle with a beautiful wife.
Compare how we all react to Ukraine (I have nothing against Ukraine, but I'm talking about the general attitude everywhere to it - just anger and contempt), and how we react to Scandinavia by comparison.
Yet Ukraine - in a wheel of fortune, is mainly a victim of historical events, and Scandinavia mainly benefitted by historical events.
Now look at who people want to identify with. Do people read interviews or enjoy watching invited to talk shows George Clooney, or do they prefer to watch on talkshows - longrun victims of radiation effects of the Chernobyl accident (only from a sinister curiosity do they want to know about the latter).
Do people like identifying with, and become interested in the life of Clooney, or of victims of Chernobyl accident?
Likewise on a national level. What are the components of Rusophobia (which in the strongest example was believed by Nazis): that Russians are stupid biomass, passive victims, who were raped by Mongolian Golden Horde.
This Western Rusophobia today: that it is a poor country, that everyone is alcoholic, that they are victims, and therefore resentful, and with attitudes symptomatic of bad fortune: anger and resentment.
The additional component (which creates Russia derangement syndrome and cognitive dissonance), that Russia is also somehow powerful (and controlling world events).
-
The reason Jesus is a revolutionary teacher in the Ancient World, is because he wants people to identify with losers. This is a very counter-natural position, and you can also see these ideas earlier being tested in Plato's dialogues. Interlocutors in Plato regard these kind of views (when tested by Socrates) as bizarre, which they are - as they are against our first instincts (which are "strong and fortunate = good", and "weak and unfortunate = bad").
Replies: @Mr. Hack, @Mr. Hack, @German_reader
There you go again Dmitry, trying to substitute your own preconceived notions with those of ‘到处‘? Kind of like your recent gaffe about how well treated Ukrainians are in Russia. 🙂 You really should be more careful blurting things out that don’t quite measure up under any sort of scrutiny! At least in New York city, I think that Ukrainians are favorably looked upon as a vital part of the city’s mosaic.
http://www.ukrainianmuseum.org/
While it doesn't prove that Ukrainians are looked down upon, I don't think it proves the opposite either.
回复：@先生。 哈克
I am someone aware of instincts emerging from what now is called "Just World Hypothesis" - which is a fallacy, as fate and history does not create results that match in a simple way to moral concepts of justice. But this instinct exists - and you will find it in yourself, and you cannot expect people will be unaffected by first instincts .
Ukraine Museum in America, as you can see, is wisely not "Museum of genocides and misfortunes" - but focusing on embroidery and positive things.
-
This is one of the main debates in the Ancient World. And the hypothesis of heaven and hell (as well as karma), is emerging as a way to try to maintain first instinct belief in Just World, when this latter was being falsified by observations of more thoughtful people of that era.
回复：@先生。 哈克
Compare how you react to an smelly homeless guy - and even if you are told that the reason is that he was victim of bad family, or physical violence or sexual abuse when he was younger (i.e. something outside his control).
Now compare how you react to a happy uncle with a beautiful wife.
Compare how we all react to Ukraine (I have nothing against Ukraine, but I'm talking about the general attitude everywhere to it - just anger and contempt), and how we react to Scandinavia by comparison.
Yet Ukraine - in a wheel of fortune, is mainly a victim of historical events, and Scandinavia mainly benefitted by historical events.
Now look at who people want to identify with. Do people read interviews or enjoy watching invited to talk shows George Clooney, or do they prefer to watch on talkshows - longrun victims of radiation effects of the Chernobyl accident (only from a sinister curiosity do they want to know about the latter).
Do people like identifying with, and become interested in the life of Clooney, or of victims of Chernobyl accident?
Likewise on a national level. What are the components of Rusophobia (which in the strongest example was believed by Nazis): that Russians are stupid biomass, passive victims, who were raped by Mongolian Golden Horde.
This Western Rusophobia today: that it is a poor country, that everyone is alcoholic, that they are victims, and therefore resentful, and with attitudes symptomatic of bad fortune: anger and resentment.
The additional component (which creates Russia derangement syndrome and cognitive dissonance), that Russia is also somehow powerful (and controlling world events).
-
The reason Jesus is a revolutionary teacher in the Ancient World, is because he wants people to identify with losers. This is a very counter-natural position, and you can also see these ideas earlier being tested in Plato's dialogues. Interlocutors in Plato regard these kind of views (when tested by Socrates) as bizarre, which they are - as they are against our first instincts (which are "strong and fortunate = good", and "weak and unfortunate = bad").
Replies: @Mr. Hack, @Mr. Hack, @German_reader
Another one of your profound oddities? Christ came into the world to try and save every person, including what in your eyes must be ‘losers’. He preached to the high and low, kings, generals, governors, tax collectors, physicians, priests, scholars, carpenters, fisherman, herders, traders, widows, children, prostitutes, thieves, everyone. His message was to proclaim the ‘Kingdom of Heaven’ to all that would listen to him. Apparently, you haven’t, yet?
Compare how you react to an smelly homeless guy - and even if you are told that the reason is that he was victim of bad family, or physical violence or sexual abuse when he was younger (i.e. something outside his control).
Now compare how you react to a happy uncle with a beautiful wife.
Compare how we all react to Ukraine (I have nothing against Ukraine, but I'm talking about the general attitude everywhere to it - just anger and contempt), and how we react to Scandinavia by comparison.
Yet Ukraine - in a wheel of fortune, is mainly a victim of historical events, and Scandinavia mainly benefitted by historical events.
Now look at who people want to identify with. Do people read interviews or enjoy watching invited to talk shows George Clooney, or do they prefer to watch on talkshows - longrun victims of radiation effects of the Chernobyl accident (only from a sinister curiosity do they want to know about the latter).
Do people like identifying with, and become interested in the life of Clooney, or of victims of Chernobyl accident?
Likewise on a national level. What are the components of Rusophobia (which in the strongest example was believed by Nazis): that Russians are stupid biomass, passive victims, who were raped by Mongolian Golden Horde.
This Western Rusophobia today: that it is a poor country, that everyone is alcoholic, that they are victims, and therefore resentful, and with attitudes symptomatic of bad fortune: anger and resentment.
The additional component (which creates Russia derangement syndrome and cognitive dissonance), that Russia is also somehow powerful (and controlling world events).
-
The reason Jesus is a revolutionary teacher in the Ancient World, is because he wants people to identify with losers. This is a very counter-natural position, and you can also see these ideas earlier being tested in Plato's dialogues. Interlocutors in Plato regard these kind of views (when tested by Socrates) as bizarre, which they are - as they are against our first instincts (which are "strong and fortunate = good", and "weak and unfortunate = bad").
Replies: @Mr. Hack, @Mr. Hack, @German_reader
Most people in the west don’t care about Ukraine either way and know very little about it.
To the degree Ukraine is resented by people in the west it’s because of the somewhat questionable elements of Ukrainian nationalism, especially its association with WW2 collaboration with the Germans and antisemitism. This is somewhat counter-balanced however by the perception that Ukrainians have historically been oppressed by great Russian imperialism and suffered horrendously under communism…and that victim status does help Ukraine in the battle for international opinion.
No, the anti-Russian narrative is that Russians are dangerous, expansionistic and a threat to Europe. Nothing to do with passive victimhood.
Maybe it’s your enthusiasm for neoliberalism, but most people even in the post-Christian West don’t just despise others out of sheer contempt for the weak.
(And which the regime ruling your grandparents or great-grandparents generation had exploited a total reversal of a Christian attitude).
-
It's one reason, watching interviews of Trump, gives a sensation of seeing a primitive of an earlier era (like a interlocutor in a dialogue of Plato).
When questioned about his virtue, Trump will change to boast about his wealth and success (as if this is evidence of virtue).
For educated people, this gives an impression of a very primitive person (but at the same time we understand the instincts he is trying to speak to).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fKmGoEL8M8
-
In relation to the topic of the Karlin topic (Israel). It can be noted that Israelphilia in America (including among Jews of America), became mainly after their victory in the war of 1967.
In an unspoken and politically incorrect way, this also occurred in the Soviet Union. Considering his generation, Putin reflects this view (his positive comments about Israel are usually related to, actually incorrect, view of their strength and success).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zToPZSu77Pk
回复：@German_reader
Most people in the west don’t care about Ukraine either way and know very little about it.
In my generation people assumed that Ukrainians were identical to Russians (& Belorussians). After all, Ukraine was the "breadbasket of 俄罗斯".
I saw your comment over there, and did some reading about the study in question. Here is a pop-sci article with quotes from the authors themselves:
This misconstrues what the study says. The claim is not that %90 of species that *have ever lived* originated in the last 200,000 years, but that %90 of the species *living now* originated in the last 200,000 years. In fact, it is estimated that 99% of all species have gone extinct:https://phys.org/news/2018-05-gene-survey-reveals-facets-evolution.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extinction
The study is interesting and surprising, but does not lend itself to the conclusions that some people want to make.
回复：@先生。 哈克
So, it appears that less than 1% of all species that have ever roamed the earth, are still visible to the modern eye. And these all came into being about 200,000 years ago, including man. Very interesting.
http://www.paleometro.ru/
Must be a communist plot.
回复：@先生。 哈克
http://www.ukrainianmuseum.org/
回复：@ Hyperborean，@ Dmitry
By Ukrainians, for Ukrainians.
While it doesn’t prove that Ukrainians are looked down upon, I don’t think it proves the opposite either.
So where's your analytical proof that Ukrainians are generally looked down upon within the Western world? A few angry comments made by commentators at a few blogs? Nobody, certainly not me, has proclaimed that the Ukrainian nation is blemish free.
回复：@Hyperborean
http://www.ukrainianmuseum.org/
回复：@ Hyperborean，@ Dmitry
I am someone aware of instincts emerging from what now is called “Just World Hypothesis” – which is a fallacy, as fate and history does not create results that match in a simple way to moral concepts of justice. But this instinct exists – and you will find it in yourself, and you cannot expect people will be unaffected by first instincts .
Ukraine Museum in America, as you can see, is wisely not “Museum of genocides and misfortunes” – but focusing on embroidery and positive things.
–
This is one of the main debates in the Ancient World. And the hypothesis of heaven and hell (as well as karma), is emerging as a way to try to maintain first instinct belief in Just World, when this latter was being falsified by observations of more thoughtful people of that era.
https://youtu.be/ZTlnIj8PBRs
回复：@Dmitry
While it doesn't prove that Ukrainians are looked down upon, I don't think it proves the opposite either.
回复：@先生。 哈克
So where’s your analytical proof that Ukrainians are generally looked down upon within the Western world? A few angry comments made by commentators at a few blogs? Nobody, certainly not me, has proclaimed that the Ukrainian nation is blemish free.
Maybe, I phrased it a bit poorly, I didn't mean to state that Ukrainians are looked down in the West (except perhaps in a generic East European way).
Rather that a museum run and funded mainly by Ukrainians doesn't really match your claim that ''Ukrainians are favorably looked upon as a vital part of the city’s mosaic''.
It seems more like they are treated with indifference. Although perhaps you know of monuments to Ukrainian culture that are funded by non-Slavs?
回复：@先生。 哈克
So, it appears that less than 1% of all species that have ever roamed the earth, are still visible to the modern eye. And these all came into being about 200,000 years ago, including man. Very interesting.
回复：@The Big Red Scary
Have you ever been in the Moscow Metro?
http://www.paleometro.ru/
Must be a communist plot.
No I haven't. Not quite sure what your point is?
回复：@The Big Red Scary
I am someone aware of instincts emerging from what now is called "Just World Hypothesis" - which is a fallacy, as fate and history does not create results that match in a simple way to moral concepts of justice. But this instinct exists - and you will find it in yourself, and you cannot expect people will be unaffected by first instincts .
Ukraine Museum in America, as you can see, is wisely not "Museum of genocides and misfortunes" - but focusing on embroidery and positive things.
-
This is one of the main debates in the Ancient World. And the hypothesis of heaven and hell (as well as karma), is emerging as a way to try to maintain first instinct belief in Just World, when this latter was being falsified by observations of more thoughtful people of that era.
回复：@先生。 哈克
If that’s the kind of thing that you’re searching for, perhaps you should visit the History of National museum «Holodomor victims’ Memorial» in Kyiv
Because it is internally. If build in America, "Museum of tragedies and misfortunes", this would not be a good diplomatic policy.
-
Jews only focusing on misfortune and persecution, externally, - in some instinctual way, it contributes to Judeophobia (through Just World Hypothesis psychology).
But Israel taking its own Jewish children (partly funded from the federal budget), to visit German death camps in Poland - it contributes to inter-ethnic solidarity and patriotism (among the majority of Israeli Jews).
-
Implications for fighting Rusophobia are quite clear. The external policy should focus on positive achievements, while the internal policy can include historical misfortunes.
回复：@Dmitry
http://www.paleometro.ru/
Must be a communist plot.
回复：@先生。 哈克
No I haven’t. Not quite sure what your point is?
My point is that the remains of many of these extinct species are indeed still visible to the modern eye. If you can't go to the Moscow Metro, go to your nearest natural history museum.
Most extant animal phyla appeared during the "Cambrian explosion", about 500 million years old. Thus the 200,000 year period during which there have been anatomically modern humans accounts for .0004 percent of the history of what we would recognize as "animals". To say the same thing backwards, .9996 percent of the history of complex life on this planet occurred before the appearance of modern humans. This is very hard, if not impossible, to truly appreciate.
Nonetheless, it is of course very interesting that the study we are discussing found that the mitochondrial lines of 90% of extant species are very young, and one would of course like to understand why. I haven't read the original study yet, and no doubt there are people around here who are better able to make sense of it than I am.
So where's your analytical proof that Ukrainians are generally looked down upon within the Western world? A few angry comments made by commentators at a few blogs? Nobody, certainly not me, has proclaimed that the Ukrainian nation is blemish free.
回复：@Hyperborean
Maybe, I phrased it a bit poorly, I didn’t mean to state that Ukrainians are looked down in the West (except perhaps in a generic East European way).
Rather that a museum run and funded mainly by Ukrainians doesn’t really match your claim that ”Ukrainians are favorably looked upon as a vital part of the city’s mosaic”.
It seems more like they are treated with indifference. Although perhaps you know of monuments to Ukrainian culture that are funded by non-Slavs?
回复：@Hyperborean
To the degree Ukraine is resented by people in the west it's because of the somewhat questionable elements of Ukrainian nationalism, especially its association with WW2 collaboration with the Germans and antisemitism. This is somewhat counter-balanced however by the perception that Ukrainians have historically been oppressed by great Russian imperialism and suffered horrendously under communism...and that victim status does help Ukraine in the battle for international opinion.No, the anti-Russian narrative is that Russians are dangerous, expansionistic and a threat to Europe. Nothing to do with passive victimhood.
Maybe it's your enthusiasm for neoliberalism, but most people even in the post-Christian West don't just despise others out of sheer contempt for the weak.
回复：@ Dmitry，@ for-the-record
In a fragile way, which rebels against first instincts, and creates all kinds of sensations of cognitive dissonance.
(And which the regime ruling your grandparents or great-grandparents generation had exploited a total reversal of a Christian attitude).
–
It’s one reason, watching interviews of Trump, gives a sensation of seeing a primitive of an earlier era (like a interlocutor in a dialogue of Plato).
When questioned about his virtue, Trump will change to boast about his wealth and success (as if this is evidence of virtue).
For educated people, this gives an impression of a very primitive person (but at the same time we understand the instincts he is trying to speak to).
–
In relation to the topic of the Karlin topic (Israel). It can be noted that Israelphilia in America (including among Jews of America), became mainly after their victory in the war of 1967.
In an unspoken and politically incorrect way, this also occurred in the Soviet Union. Considering his generation, Putin reflects this view (his positive comments about Israel are usually related to, actually incorrect, view of their strength and success).
When you're supposedly a weak victim, much is forgiven that would otherwise bring scrutiny and criticism.
https://youtu.be/ZTlnIj8PBRs
回复：@Dmitry
Because it is internally. If build in America, “Museum of tragedies and misfortunes”, this would not be a good diplomatic policy.
–
Jews only focusing on misfortune and persecution, externally, – in some instinctual way, it contributes to Judeophobia (through Just World Hypothesis psychology).
But Israel taking its own Jewish children (partly funded from the federal budget), to visit German death camps in Poland – it contributes to inter-ethnic solidarity and patriotism (among the majority of Israeli Jews).
–
Implications for fighting Rusophobia are quite clear. The external policy should focus on positive achievements, while the internal policy can include historical misfortunes.
Role-model for future museums abroad would be following this concept - an integration of language teaching and immersion of visitors in culture.
The museums itself could become a center of language teaching, offering free language classes, as well as public lectures inviting famous experts from different fields - art history, musicology and literature.
In addition, with a concert hall for classical music, and which can also be used for visiting bands (to attract local hipsters).
This will also attract a kind of segment of the population who are desirable (attractive middle and upper class people, and romantic young women) and not attracting undesirable segments.
Currently there exist Russian cultural centers in a few places - but these (if you visit) are small houses, sometimes shabby, and too associated with the embassy, and only visited by citizens living abroad.
Such museums could only be effective, if they are large and impressive buildings, reflecting some emotion of grandeur.
Oligarchs could be asked to pay for this- (Abramovich has expended $3 billion on Chelsea, which same money could have build a few of these museums).
Probably the best place to build them - London, Tokyo and Beijing (America would probably arrest all the museum staff).
-
*
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6lCF_p8SY6s
回复：@先生。 哈克
(And which the regime ruling your grandparents or great-grandparents generation had exploited a total reversal of a Christian attitude).
-
It's one reason, watching interviews of Trump, gives a sensation of seeing a primitive of an earlier era (like a interlocutor in a dialogue of Plato).
When questioned about his virtue, Trump will change to boast about his wealth and success (as if this is evidence of virtue).
For educated people, this gives an impression of a very primitive person (but at the same time we understand the instincts he is trying to speak to).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fKmGoEL8M8
-
In relation to the topic of the Karlin topic (Israel). It can be noted that Israelphilia in America (including among Jews of America), became mainly after their victory in the war of 1967.
In an unspoken and politically incorrect way, this also occurred in the Soviet Union. Considering his generation, Putin reflects this view (his positive comments about Israel are usually related to, actually incorrect, view of their strength and success).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zToPZSu77Pk
回复：@German_reader
The Nazis always presented their violence as legitimate self-defense.
There may be an element of truth to that, but Israel’s international image was much better in the first few decades of its existence when it was seen as the underdog in its fight against the Arab states and as a refuge for Holocaust survivors. That perception began to dwindle with Israel’s occupation and settlement of yet more Palestinian land and its 1982 invasion of Lebanon which showed that it had now obviously gained the upper hand in its conflict with the Arabs. But Israel certainly would very much like the older view to become dominant once again; that’s why pro-Israel activists in Western countries try to keep memory of the Holocaust alive and make so much of the alleged Iranian threat.
When you’re supposedly a weak victim, much is forgiven that would otherwise bring scrutiny and criticism.
Maybe, I phrased it a bit poorly, I didn't mean to state that Ukrainians are looked down in the West (except perhaps in a generic East European way).
Rather that a museum run and funded mainly by Ukrainians doesn't really match your claim that ''Ukrainians are favorably looked upon as a vital part of the city’s mosaic''.
It seems more like they are treated with indifference. Although perhaps you know of monuments to Ukrainian culture that are funded by non-Slavs?
回复：@先生。 哈克
Your criteria is unrealistic. I think that you’d be hard pressed to find say any monuments dedicated to the memory of Beethoven that didn’t have significant support and input from the German community? Yet, Germany, which was responsible for so much destruction and mayhem during WWII, I wouldn’t say is particularly looked down upon in the West today. Neither is Ukraine.
I don't know how it is in America, but in Western Europe the museums which have a world-wide focus will have exhibitions and artefacts from France, Italy, Greece, China, Japan etc.
To the extent that Germany is looked up to today, it is because it was the advanced Bundesrepublik, which had gained admiration in the post-war era, which brought upon reunification rather than the DDR.But nothing or only very little from countries like Poland, the Ukraine, Russia, Rumania or Bulgaria.
Perhaps in America Ukrainians are just considered generic whites, but in Western Europe people look down on Eastern Europeans.
If it had been the DDR which survived instead and altered West Germany to the East German system, stereotypes of Ossis would probably have been far stronger in Western neighbour countries.
回复：@German_reader
I for one appreciated museums dedicated to both cultural legacies as well as ones that express more of a somber historical message. But if “Museum of tragedies and misfortunes” is your bag, skip the museum in New York and head straight to the one in Kyiv.
To the degree Ukraine is resented by people in the west it's because of the somewhat questionable elements of Ukrainian nationalism, especially its association with WW2 collaboration with the Germans and antisemitism. This is somewhat counter-balanced however by the perception that Ukrainians have historically been oppressed by great Russian imperialism and suffered horrendously under communism...and that victim status does help Ukraine in the battle for international opinion.No, the anti-Russian narrative is that Russians are dangerous, expansionistic and a threat to Europe. Nothing to do with passive victimhood.
Maybe it's your enthusiasm for neoliberalism, but most people even in the post-Christian West don't just despise others out of sheer contempt for the weak.
回复：@ Dmitry，@ for-the-record
Most people in the west don’t care about Ukraine either way and know very little about it.
In my generation people assumed that Ukrainians were identical to Russians (& Belorussians). After all, Ukraine was the “breadbasket of 俄罗斯“。
I hear you. Forgive ny sloppy reading. I've been busy battling heathens over on Reed's thread.
回复：@The Big Red Scary，@Talha
Battling heathens eh? It’s funny, I’ve noticed that on the subject of evolution*, people can look at the exact same evidence and come to completely different conclusions. Not surprising though, if one comes from a believing or disbelieving background, often the evidence buttresses one’s own bias. Just depends on how one is willing to interpret it.
Of course, if one believes, then there really is no need to stick to a strictly naturalistic interpretation for everything.
和平：
*Which subsumes many different theoretical ideas (as for-the-record) pointed out; some that flow quite naturally and some that require a stretch of the imagination.
No I haven't. Not quite sure what your point is?
回复：@The Big Red Scary
My point is that the remains of many of these extinct species are indeed still visible to the modern eye. If you can’t go to the Moscow Metro, go to your nearest natural history museum.
Most extant animal phyla appeared during the “Cambrian explosion”, about 500 million years old. Thus the 200,000 year period during which there have been anatomically modern humans accounts for .0004 percent of the history of what we would recognize as “animals”. To say the same thing backwards, .9996 percent of the history of complex life on this planet occurred before the appearance of modern humans. This is very hard, if not impossible, to truly appreciate.
Nonetheless, it is of course very interesting that the study we are discussing found that the mitochondrial lines of 90% of extant species are very young, and one would of course like to understand why. I haven’t read the original study yet, and no doubt there are people around here who are better able to make sense of it than I am.
Because it is internally. If build in America, "Museum of tragedies and misfortunes", this would not be a good diplomatic policy.
-
Jews only focusing on misfortune and persecution, externally, - in some instinctual way, it contributes to Judeophobia (through Just World Hypothesis psychology).
But Israel taking its own Jewish children (partly funded from the federal budget), to visit German death camps in Poland - it contributes to inter-ethnic solidarity and patriotism (among the majority of Israeli Jews).
-
Implications for fighting Rusophobia are quite clear. The external policy should focus on positive achievements, while the internal policy can include historical misfortunes.
回复：@Dmitry
The best example so far was the alphabet in the opening ceremony of Sochi 2014.*
Role-model for future museums abroad would be following this concept – an integration of language teaching and immersion of visitors in culture.
The museums itself could become a center of language teaching, offering free language classes, as well as public lectures inviting famous experts from different fields – art history, musicology and literature.
In addition, with a concert hall for classical music, and which can also be used for visiting bands (to attract local hipsters).
This will also attract a kind of segment of the population who are desirable (attractive middle and upper class people, and romantic young women) and not attracting undesirable segments.
Currently there exist Russian cultural centers in a few places – but these (if you visit) are small houses, sometimes shabby, and too associated with the embassy, and only visited by citizens living abroad.
Such museums could only be effective, if they are large and impressive buildings, reflecting some emotion of grandeur.
Oligarchs could be asked to pay for this- (Abramovich has expended $3 billion on Chelsea, which same money could have build a few of these museums).
Probably the best place to build them – London, Tokyo and Beijing (America would probably arrest all the museum staff).
–
*
If you ever visit the New World, check out the excellent Russian Museum of Art in Minneapolis, MN. I've been there several times and have been quite impressed. Two exhibits that I saw there were particularly outstanding: 1) dedicated to Russian philately and 2) one exhibit of Russian iconography of Yaroslavl. (they even occasionally exhibit works of Ukrainian artists). Their permanent collection, mostly comprised of Soviet Realism works, will warm the heart of most any sovok...
https://youtu.be/aCVWTgp1owk
回复：@先生哈克，@The Big Red Scary
Not in any European city?
What city do you think?
London is visited by almost everyone in Europe, and people go to visit museums which teach about world culture (British museum and Victoria & Albert museum is almost all non-British things inside).
Also in London - a lot of Russian people who would love it, and want to work there, or support it.
Maybe in Barcelona? (It has a lot of tourists, but not really such a museum city).
And places like Rome would be too incompatible (you go to see Italian culture there).
Berlin would not be a good idea (because of the war and aftermath).
-
Museum itself could use interactive exhibits (which can be very good nowadays).
回复：@Mitleser
Europe doesn't matter.
I agree though that Berlin might be suitable for something like this.
回复：@ Dmitry，@ German_reader
What city do you think?
London is visited by almost everyone in Europe, and people go to visit museums which teach about world culture (British museum and Victoria & Albert museum is almost all non-British things inside).
Also in London – a lot of Russian people who would love it, and want to work there, or support it.
Maybe in Barcelona? (It has a lot of tourists, but not really such a museum city).
And places like Rome would be too incompatible (you go to see Italian culture there).
Berlin would not be a good idea (because of the war and aftermath).
–
Museum itself could use interactive exhibits (which can be very good nowadays).
What about Wien or Prag?
Lots of museums plus authentic Russian history via the Soviet war memorial and the Russian exiles like Ivan Ilyin who used to live in Berlin.Role-model for future museums abroad would be following this concept - an integration of language teaching and immersion of visitors in culture.
The museums itself could become a center of language teaching, offering free language classes, as well as public lectures inviting famous experts from different fields - art history, musicology and literature.
In addition, with a concert hall for classical music, and which can also be used for visiting bands (to attract local hipsters).
This will also attract a kind of segment of the population who are desirable (attractive middle and upper class people, and romantic young women) and not attracting undesirable segments.
Currently there exist Russian cultural centers in a few places - but these (if you visit) are small houses, sometimes shabby, and too associated with the embassy, and only visited by citizens living abroad.
Such museums could only be effective, if they are large and impressive buildings, reflecting some emotion of grandeur.
Oligarchs could be asked to pay for this- (Abramovich has expended $3 billion on Chelsea, which same money could have build a few of these museums).
Probably the best place to build them - London, Tokyo and Beijing (America would probably arrest all the museum staff).
-
*
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6lCF_p8SY6s
回复：@先生。 哈克
If you ever visit the New World, check out the excellent Russian Museum of Art in Minneapolis, MN. I’ve been there several times and have been quite impressed. Two exhibits that I saw there were particularly outstanding: 1) dedicated to Russian philately and 2) one exhibit of Russian iconography of Yaroslavl. (they even occasionally exhibit works of Ukrainian artists). Their permanent collection, mostly comprised of Soviet Realism works, will warm the heart of most any sovok…
In fact, Dmitry, if your tastes are so inclined you may curently catch Leon Hushcha's works at the Museum of Russian Art on exhibit thru September 1. Leon is a well known personality in the Ukrainian community in the Twin Cities area, as the Hushcha clan is well represented throughout the community as well. Leon's artwork is quite modern and sought after by the larger art community outside of the 'ghetto' too. His current schtick is more abtract then it once was, sort of ala Jackson Pollock:
https://youtu.be/iO9lBetXl6A
Interesting. I used to spend a fair amount of time in Minneapolis, and have Russian and Ukrainian connections in the Twin Cities. But I don't think this museum was open last time I was there. I do however remember an exhibit at the Minneapolis Institute of Art of what I think must have been
paintings of Ilya Glazunov, although I didn't know him at the time.
回复：@先生。 哈克
Israel has legalized the de facto third class status of its Arab Christian and Arab Muslim population. One cannot wait to hear the response of the ADL, AJC and other self style jewish civil rights organizations in the US to the discrimination and marginalization by Israel of its Arab Mualim and Arab Christian population.
What city do you think?
London is visited by almost everyone in Europe, and people go to visit museums which teach about world culture (British museum and Victoria & Albert museum is almost all non-British things inside).
Also in London - a lot of Russian people who would love it, and want to work there, or support it.
Maybe in Barcelona? (It has a lot of tourists, but not really such a museum city).
And places like Rome would be too incompatible (you go to see Italian culture there).
Berlin would not be a good idea (because of the war and aftermath).
-
Museum itself could use interactive exhibits (which can be very good nowadays).
回复：@Mitleser
What about Wien or Prag?
Lots of museums plus authentic Russian history via the Soviet war memorial and the Russian exiles like Ivan Ilyin who used to live in Berlin.
回复：@ Dmitry，@ German_reader
Europe doesn’t matter.
I agree though that Berlin might be suitable for something like this.
和平：
回复：@秦公爵
Jewish and Arab tribal nationalism (fuck the goyim/khuffar) are not recent import ideologies at all, but ancient and abiding ideologies core to shitty semitic peoples and their endogamous mating patterns. Of course the communities could co-exist with one another for a long time, just as the various jati communities across South Asia have, but that was predicated on clear social boundaries and barriers between communities with segregated social lives. What the 20th century “modernity” brought to the Middle East wasn’t the spark of race war, but rather the destruction of traditional socio-economic boundaries that kept communities in their place leading to more contact and more competition.
What does Arab nationalism have to do with Islamic in/out grouping? If anything, modern Arab ethno-nationalism allowed massive mobility to non-Muslim Arabs - you can see how many of them were disproportionately represented in organizations like the Baath Party at the highest levels.
It's usually termed; good fences make good neighbors. And it worked fairly well - the Ottoman Dynasty did not set the world record for longest single family dynastic succession for nothing.那个也是。Arabs have always been tribal, it's kind of one of their calling cards. It is something that can be powerful and a massive disadvantage, depending on the situation.
Besides, how can we take criticisms on this front seriously from someone of your background and bent? The Chinese are the largest ethno-linguistic insular people on the face of the planet. And even that hasn't stopped them from record-setting bloodfests among themselves:
https://www.warhistoryonline.com/ancient-history/4-reasons-rome-fell-ever-fall-b.html
Given the diversity (ethnic and religious) of the peoples of the Middle East, it is actually surprising they have not had a bloodier history than they actually do.
和平：
回复：@Talha
回复：@Hyperborean
I don’t know how it is in America, but in Western Europe the museums which have a world-wide focus will have exhibitions and artefacts from France, Italy, Greece, China, Japan etc.
But nothing or only very little from countries like Poland, the Ukraine, Russia, Rumania or Bulgaria.
Perhaps in America Ukrainians are just considered generic whites, but in Western Europe people look down on Eastern Europeans.
To the extent that Germany is looked up to today, it is because it was the advanced Bundesrepublik, which had gained admiration in the post-war era, which brought upon reunification rather than the DDR.
If it had been the DDR which survived instead and altered West Germany to the East German system, stereotypes of Ossis would probably have been far stronger in Western neighbour countries.
Regarding Ukraine, most people in Western countries just don't know very much...I remember when I talked a few years ago with an acquaintance about Russia and Putin and she made a casual remark where she confused Ukraine with Uzbekistan... Mr Hack will certainly find it immensely irritating, but most Westerners probably regard Ukrainians as some kind of Russians.
回复：@Hyperborean
If you ever visit the New World, check out the excellent Russian Museum of Art in Minneapolis, MN. I've been there several times and have been quite impressed. Two exhibits that I saw there were particularly outstanding: 1) dedicated to Russian philately and 2) one exhibit of Russian iconography of Yaroslavl. (they even occasionally exhibit works of Ukrainian artists). Their permanent collection, mostly comprised of Soviet Realism works, will warm the heart of most any sovok...
https://youtu.be/aCVWTgp1owk
回复：@先生哈克，@The Big Red Scary
In fact, Dmitry, if your tastes are so inclined you may curently catch Leon Hushcha’s works at the Museum of Russian Art on exhibit thru September 1. Leon is a well known personality in the Ukrainian community in the Twin Cities area, as the Hushcha clan is well represented throughout the community as well. Leon’s artwork is quite modern and sought after by the larger art community outside of the ‘ghetto’ too. His current schtick is more abtract then it once was, sort of ala Jackson Pollock:
If you ever visit the New World, check out the excellent Russian Museum of Art in Minneapolis, MN. I've been there several times and have been quite impressed. Two exhibits that I saw there were particularly outstanding: 1) dedicated to Russian philately and 2) one exhibit of Russian iconography of Yaroslavl. (they even occasionally exhibit works of Ukrainian artists). Their permanent collection, mostly comprised of Soviet Realism works, will warm the heart of most any sovok...
https://youtu.be/aCVWTgp1owk
回复：@先生哈克，@The Big Red Scary
Interesting. I used to spend a fair amount of time in Minneapolis, and have Russian and Ukrainian connections in the Twin Cities. But I don’t think this museum was open last time I was there. I do however remember an exhibit at the Minneapolis Institute of Art of what I think must have been
paintings of Ilya Glazunov, although I didn’t know him at the time.
The museum has been around since 2002 (yes, time flies when you're having fun). I've been there 3-4 times now. They have a great gift shop too. Here's their website info:
https://tmora.org/about/
I don't know how it is in America, but in Western Europe the museums which have a world-wide focus will have exhibitions and artefacts from France, Italy, Greece, China, Japan etc.
To the extent that Germany is looked up to today, it is because it was the advanced Bundesrepublik, which had gained admiration in the post-war era, which brought upon reunification rather than the DDR.But nothing or only very little from countries like Poland, the Ukraine, Russia, Rumania or Bulgaria.
Perhaps in America Ukrainians are just considered generic whites, but in Western Europe people look down on Eastern Europeans.
If it had been the DDR which survived instead and altered West Germany to the East German system, stereotypes of Ossis would probably have been far stronger in Western neighbour countries.
回复：@German_reader
I don’t believe there’s really much genuine admiration or sympathy for Germany, rather massive resentment which will turn into 幸灾乐祸 once the country’s increasing dysfunction becomes more obvious internationally. Some of that is due to Germany’s economic dominance and the Euro crisis, but imo it’s still true that Germany is mostly seen through the lens of the world wars and the Nazi era, certainly in the English-speaking world.
Regarding Ukraine, most people in Western countries just don’t know very much…I remember when I talked a few years ago with an acquaintance about Russia and Putin and she made a casual remark where she confused Ukraine with Uzbekistan… Mr Hack will certainly find it immensely irritating, but most Westerners probably regard Ukrainians as some kind of Russians.
Although as German internal decline continues this inherited reputation will probably eventually fade and only become a faint memory in elderly grandparents and museum exhibitions - just like the British 'workshop of the world'.
*Interestingly, while I have heard some Liberals praise Merkel for her disasterous migration policy, German media propaganda about the alleged usefulness of the migrants has also caused some of them to just see it as Germans being their usual crafty self rather than Germans kindly 'opening their hearts'.
Interesting. I used to spend a fair amount of time in Minneapolis, and have Russian and Ukrainian connections in the Twin Cities. But I don't think this museum was open last time I was there. I do however remember an exhibit at the Minneapolis Institute of Art of what I think must have been
paintings of Ilya Glazunov, although I didn't know him at the time.
回复：@先生。 哈克
The museum has been around since 2002 (yes, time flies when you’re having fun). I’ve been there 3-4 times now. They have a great gift shop too. Here’s their website info:
https://tmora.org/about/
Regarding Ukraine, most people in Western countries just don't know very much...I remember when I talked a few years ago with an acquaintance about Russia and Putin and she made a casual remark where she confused Ukraine with Uzbekistan... Mr Hack will certainly find it immensely irritating, but most Westerners probably regard Ukrainians as some kind of Russians.
回复：@Hyperborean
Overall, I would say this is true. But those who do say positive things about Germany, at least in my experience, will tend to mention industrial or economic-related achievements – luxury cars, washing machines, German organisation skills, savers culture etc – which became associated with Germany during the Wirtschaftswunder.*
Although as German internal decline continues this inherited reputation will probably eventually fade and only become a faint memory in elderly grandparents and museum exhibitions – just like the British ‘workshop of the world’.
*Interestingly, while I have heard some Liberals praise Merkel for her disasterous migration policy, German media propaganda about the alleged usefulness of the migrants has also caused some of them to just see it as Germans being their usual crafty self rather than Germans kindly ‘opening their hearts’.
The opening paragraph has a terrifying resonance:
The Reichstag [Knesset] has just formally passed a Basic Law stipulating that the German Reich [Israel] is “the historical homeland of the German [Jewish] people and they have an exclusive right to national self-determination in it.”
What is the solution for those in the population who are not German [Jewish]?
Has no one noticed where ideas like these can, and have, taken us?
Jewish and Arab tribal nationalism (fuck the goyim/khuffar) are not recent import ideologies at all, but ancient and abiding ideologies core to shitty semitic peoples and their endogamous mating patterns. Of course the communities could co-exist with one another for a long time, just as the various jati communities across South Asia have, but that was predicated on clear social boundaries and barriers between communities with segregated social lives. What the 20th century "modernity" brought to the Middle East wasn't the spark of race war, but rather the destruction of traditional socio-economic boundaries that kept communities in their place leading to more contact and more competition.
回复：@Talha
What does Arab nationalism have to do with Islamic in/out grouping? If anything, modern Arab ethno-nationalism allowed massive mobility to non-Muslim Arabs – you can see how many of them were disproportionately represented in organizations like the Baath Party at the highest levels.
Arabs have always been tribal, it’s kind of one of their calling cards. It is something that can be powerful and a massive disadvantage, depending on the situation.
Besides, how can we take criticisms on this front seriously from someone of your background and bent? The Chinese are the largest ethno-linguistic insular people on the face of the planet. And even that hasn’t stopped them from record-setting bloodfests among themselves:
https://www.warhistoryonline.com/ancient-history/4-reasons-rome-fell-ever-fall-b.html
Given the diversity (ethnic and religious) of the peoples of the Middle East, it is actually surprising they have not had a bloodier history than they actually do.
It’s usually termed; good fences make good neighbors. And it worked fairly well – the Ottoman Dynasty did not set the world record for longest single family dynastic succession for nothing.
那个也是。
和平：
Wrong link:
https://m.warhistoryonline.com/instant-articles/casualties-war-ten-deadliest-conflicts-human-history-m.html
What does Arab nationalism have to do with Islamic in/out grouping? If anything, modern Arab ethno-nationalism allowed massive mobility to non-Muslim Arabs - you can see how many of them were disproportionately represented in organizations like the Baath Party at the highest levels.
It's usually termed; good fences make good neighbors. And it worked fairly well - the Ottoman Dynasty did not set the world record for longest single family dynastic succession for nothing.那个也是。Arabs have always been tribal, it's kind of one of their calling cards. It is something that can be powerful and a massive disadvantage, depending on the situation.
Besides, how can we take criticisms on this front seriously from someone of your background and bent? The Chinese are the largest ethno-linguistic insular people on the face of the planet. And even that hasn't stopped them from record-setting bloodfests among themselves:
https://www.warhistoryonline.com/ancient-history/4-reasons-rome-fell-ever-fall-b.html
Given the diversity (ethnic and religious) of the peoples of the Middle East, it is actually surprising they have not had a bloodier history than they actually do.
和平：
回复：@Talha
Wrong link:
https://m.warhistoryonline.com/instant-articles/casualties-war-ten-deadliest-conflicts-human-history-m.html
对我来说是民族国家，对你来说是充满活力的多样性，非犹太人！典型的犹太人在工作中的肆无忌惮。