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OK! So I finally have a PC again thanks to a scavenging friend.

  • CPU = i5-4670k
  • MoBo = Asus Z87-A
  • GPU = GTX 770
  • 620W PSU and R4 Fractal case

Full upgrade is too costly (around $500 as both the DDR-3 based MoBo and CPU would need to be replaced), and frankly unneeded for another 2-3 years, but I do want to upgrade the GPU and double RAM to 16GB.

Goals: Play any modern game at smooth 60 fps on 1080p screen on Ultra would almost certainly be the main/only constraining factor.

RAM: Corsair Vengeance DDR3 DIMM 1600MHz PC3-12800 [16GB] for ~$100. Some of my apps could benefit from this and might come in handy if I need to work on large databases.

Which GPU?

I like MSI GPUs as they tend to be quiet, reliable, have good cooling, and are OC friendly. I assume these are no different and the reviews appear to be ok.

Getting the RTX 2060 seems like a no brainer. Might be worth considering the 1660-Ti if the price differential was $80 (as it seems to be in the US), but in Russia it’s only ~$40.

Does this sound about right? Am I making any mistakes?

Meta-note: I should have never abandoned the PC master race. Thorfinnsson’s “technical” explanations regardless, I strongly believe that the problems with my Lenovo notebook were the result of God punishing me for my treason. I have gotten the message. Laptops are for bringing to work, or for travel – not for the home.

With 20 days worth of warranty remaining, I will soon send it the laptop off to get repaired, hopefully it could at least continue serving in that modest and more appropriate function.

***

@ak

More notable posts since the last Open Thread in case you missed any of them.

  • Kazakh President Nazarbayev Resigns
    • Succeeding Prez Tokayev to rename capital Astana to Nursultan. I thought the Kazakhs might be freer of the Central Asian inclination towards personality cults, but I guess not.
    • Nazarbayev will retain real power. He was made Leader for Life (“elbasy”) in 2010, and he will chair the Security Council, which was made more powerful than the Presidency. I have seen speculations that he will be succeeded by his wife, or one of his two daughters.
  • What If Russia Stood on the Sidelines While Crimea Burned?
    • More Crimea poasts upcoming soon.
  • Some good responses to my Yang post at /r/YangForPresidentHQ

Not many notable posts, as I’m only posting this a few days after the last Open Thread.

*

***

Featured

***

Russia

  • *powerful comment*: E dissects internal Ukrainian discussions on what to do about Crimea on Feb 28, 2014
  • Completion of the first railroad bridge across the Amur linking China and Russia; should be in operation by the end of the year
  • Hyundai/Yandex strike deal on developing self-driving cars
  • *powerful comment*: German_reader on how Merkel took the climate school strikes as Russian “hybrid warfare” until the Greens came out in support.
  • Moscow prepares ‘White Book’ on human rights violations by Western states
  • Mary Ilyushina: “RT apparently makes its employees sign an agreement banning them from criticizing or discussing the inner workings of the channel even 20 YEARS after they quit. Otherwise — 5 mln rub fine (about 77k).

***

World

  • More Zach Goldberg on the rise of millennial Pink Guards
  • Trump ReTweets:
    • William Craddick: “Russiagate was designed in part to help the UK counter Russian influence by baiting the United States into taking a hard line against them. Leaves us all with a more dangerous world as a consequence. Just another episode of the Great Game.
    • He’s not wrong!
  • Andrew Yang not an IQ realist (publicly)
    • Airily dismissing utility of IQ tests is highly characteristic of high IQ people. But there are also purely pragmatic reasons for politicians to steer clear.
  • Barak Ravid: “This is one of the most bizzare election ad you have ever seen: Israel’s Minister of Justice (!!) Ayelet Shaked plays a model, sprays herself with “Fascism” perfume and says: “Smells like democracy to me”. Viktor Orban on steroids
  • Mencius Moldbugman travel thread:
    • I’m a well-travelled guy and I recently got some comments about my travels, especially in light of the Christchurch shooter’s trips to Pakistan and N Korea. I’d like to share some thoughts on why I don’t think these places radicalised him, plus some talk about Bhutan….. Media cries of radicalisation when they see someone visiting NK or Pakistan are groundless and ignorant of reality. I’m very lucky to be extremely well travelled in unusual locales… the only place I ever felt radicalised was Bhutan.

***

Science & Culture

***

Humor & Powerful Takes

***

 
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  1. *powerful comment*: Thorfinnsson on Luftwaffe vs. modern art

    ‘Powerful’?? Give me a break Anatoly! 🙂

    A photgraph of a bombsight better than Picasso’s Guernica? The ‘alt-right’ gang should stick to planning various interesting anschlusses around the world, not discussions about art (I did notice a fan or two of the Austrian water colorist gain some ‘powerful comments’ too. It’s a shame that you didn’t include them too!). 🙂

    • Replies: @szopen
    @Mr. Hack

    Szukalski thought Picasso was Fartist and Pic-ass-hole, and Szukalski was genius, soooo ... :D

    (OTOH, Szukalski was also a complete nut plus he was Russophobe)

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

  2. The latest from a once time multiple guest on RT: https://www.counterpunch.org/2019/03/21/on-ilhan-omar-assad-fetishism-and-the-danger-of-red-brown-anti-imperialism/

    Harassment? https://www.rt.com/sport/454388-zagitova-doping-control-world-championship/

    Hate mongering journalism: https://www.rferl.org/a/cold-war-on-ice-how-czechoslovakia-hockey-team-beat-soviets/29832512.html

    Highly suspect that the featured Boris Mikhailov wasn’t asked about the claim made (by one of his Czech opponents in the above linked video) that he played dirty. No note on the many modern day Czechs and Slovaks who’ve played in Russia, inclusive of the best Czech player ever – the not so distantly retired Jaromir Jagr, who doesn’t stereotype Russia/Russians, while opposing the 1968 Soviet led intervention of his country. The late Ivan Hlinka, who coached the Olympic gold medal winning men’s Czech ice hockey team in 1998, went on to coach in Russia.

    • Replies: @Anon
    @Mikhail

    RFE/RL is a Russophobic cesspool paid by the US government.

    Replies: @Mikhail

  3. @Mr. Hack

    *powerful comment*: Thorfinnsson on Luftwaffe vs. modern art
     
    'Powerful'?? Give me a break Anatoly! :-)

    A photgraph of a bombsight better than Picasso's Guernica? The 'alt-right' gang should stick to planning various interesting anschlusses around the world, not discussions about art (I did notice a fan or two of the Austrian water colorist gain some 'powerful comments' too. It's a shame that you didn't include them too!). :-)

    Replies: @szopen

    Szukalski thought Picasso was Fartist and Pic-ass-hole, and Szukalski was genius, soooo … 😀

    (OTOH, Szukalski was also a complete nut plus he was Russophobe)

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @szopen

    Szukalski miał pierdnięcie mózgu! :-)

  4. RE: LondonBob’s Civil War post, with which I mostly agree, as far as alternative history goes when it comes to Britain and America, Ron Unz gave us a good starting point from where we can wander into asking what might have been if a bunch of Limey spies and Roosevelt hadn’t attacked our formerly peaceful country

    https://www.unz.com/runz/american-pravda-alexander-cockburn-and-the-british-spies/

    But an even better question is, what if that troll Teddy Roosevelt hadn’t put Wilson into the White House? Would Taft, et al, have stopped the Fed? And it certainly seems a Taft administration, followed presumably by another Republican victory in 1916, would have stopped U.S. intervention in World War 1. Or was it all inevitable?

    America’s “special relationship” with Britain. Pardon me while I vomit in my mouth.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan


    Ron Unz gave us a good starting point from where we can wander into asking what might have been if a bunch of Limey spies and Roosevelt hadn’t attacked our formerly peaceful country
     
    Nazi Germany could have become potentially quite dangerous to the US if it had successfully conquered Eurasia. It did have fairly advanced technology by the standards of the time after all, especially in rocket development. I guess it comes down to the question whether Hitler's ambitions were limited to Europe or global, at least in the long term.
    Another crucial question of course is whether Germany could ever have decisively defeated the Soviet Union and occupied all of European Russia. I doubt it, Operation Barbarossa was total hubris and the German plans had failed even in their modified form by late 1942/early 1943, and that was before America decisively entered the war in North Africa and Europe, and iirc also before most of the Western lend-lease shipments to the Soviet Union. But I suppose there might have been some sort of extended stalemate.
    But in any case, Roosevelt's actions turned the US into the dominant world power, at the cost of the lowest casualties of all combatant powers. So the criticism of him by US paleoconservatives always seems rather exaggerated to me.

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson, @Hyperborean, @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan, @Konstantin

    , @LondonBob
    @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan

    The Roosevelt administration was a key driver of WWII, as much so as Hitler. See The Forrestal Diaries and Joe Kennedy relaying Neville Chamberlain's thoughts on the matter. War might have been avoided otherwise.

    Had the Republican vote not been split then there was a good chance the US would have entered WWI a lot earlier and Germany been defeated a lot sooner.

    https://www.saturdayeveningpost.com/2014/04/roosevelt-1912/

    Replies: @LondonBob

  5. Intentional confusion in ChristChurch and the ‘conspiracy theory’ smear –

    Every serious analyst reviewing the New Zealand Tarrant mosque shooting video, finds credibility-nullifying elements of hoax and fraud – the ejected rifle brass casings turning into vapour, obvious computer graphics; the lack of damage in walls and windows from rifle fire; the lack of physical reactions & screams in bodies being shot; the barefoot victim shot down, having socks on two minutes later, etc

    But it’s not easy to grok this, as the next logical question is how you can get an entire Muslim community to keep quiet about a ‘fake’ shooting, whilst ‘crisis actors’ give interviews etc

    The logical conclusion is that, as some argue, there was a real mosque massacre by one or two gov-tied killers, and a fake video was made to sow confusion and discredit anyone who notices the fakery.

    With real Muslims dead, all you need to shut up real witnesses, is to have one or two corrupt Muslim leaders, tell their flock they are dishonouring martrys by trying to talk to media, and Allah wills the situation as is, so shut up. The same Muslim leaders who let the interior of the mosque be filmed earlier, as backdrop for the fabricated Tarrant show.

    NZ media would dismiss as ‘crazy’ any wounded or witness Muslim who tried to argue against the video – which they maybe haven’t seen anyway, given NZ censorship.

    The ‘white nationalist boogeyman’ is obviously very long-term useful to prop up as alleged shooter. At the same time, there is meagre ground to argue the gov-mercenary shooter angle, and the ‘truther’ crowd is made to look obsessive and foolish quibbling about obvious video fraud.

    The value of confusion is high to government operations. Consider 9-11, with five widely-spread stories about what took down the New York World Trade Centre towers on 11 September 2001, four stories all deflecting from whatever is the real truth:

    (1) Official story, planes, jet fuel, etc – Denounced as impossible by thousands of architects & engineers
    (2) Conventional pre-set explosives, linked to the ‘Israeli art students’ photographed by the New York Times, with boxes whose industrial codes showed them to be bomb detonator components (my vote)
    (3) Nano-thermite advanced explosives
    (4) Destructive energy rays which the government can use from a distance
    (5) 1950s-60s recycled ‘mini nuclear weapons’ detonated inside the towers

  6. Yandex apparently has one of the best self-driving systems out there, despite only starting working on it in 2016.

    https://europe.autonews.com/automakers/russias-yandex-has-created-what-may-be-most-aggressive-av-tech

    From the start, there was a clear contrast between the Yandex demonstration and a dozen or so other self-driving rides others conducted that week. Others required their human safety drivers to operate the vehicle in private parking lots and engage autonomous mode only when we reached a public road. But the Toyota Prius V used by Yandex was under computer control from the moment we rolled out of a parking stall within the garage at the Hard Rock Hotel & Casino, though a human safety driver was behind the wheel.

    They almost didn’t get there, thanks to the wonderful relations between US and Russia.

    That Yandex was in Vegas at all is something of a marvel. Several members of the Yandex engineering team had visa delays in the weeks leading into CES. So it was left to a single employee who arrived five weeks before the tech showcase to buy a Prius V from a local dealer, retrofit the vehicle with its sensor stack of Velodyne lidar, cameras and radar, not to mention the computing power in the trunk, and then map routes around the city.

  7. German_reader says:
    @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan
    RE: LondonBob's Civil War post, with which I mostly agree, as far as alternative history goes when it comes to Britain and America, Ron Unz gave us a good starting point from where we can wander into asking what might have been if a bunch of Limey spies and Roosevelt hadn't attacked our formerly peaceful country

    https://www.unz.com/runz/american-pravda-alexander-cockburn-and-the-british-spies/

    But an even better question is, what if that troll Teddy Roosevelt hadn't put Wilson into the White House? Would Taft, et al, have stopped the Fed? And it certainly seems a Taft administration, followed presumably by another Republican victory in 1916, would have stopped U.S. intervention in World War 1. Or was it all inevitable?

    America's "special relationship" with Britain. Pardon me while I vomit in my mouth.

    Replies: @German_reader, @LondonBob

    Ron Unz gave us a good starting point from where we can wander into asking what might have been if a bunch of Limey spies and Roosevelt hadn’t attacked our formerly peaceful country

    Nazi Germany could have become potentially quite dangerous to the US if it had successfully conquered Eurasia. It did have fairly advanced technology by the standards of the time after all, especially in rocket development. I guess it comes down to the question whether Hitler’s ambitions were limited to Europe or global, at least in the long term.
    Another crucial question of course is whether Germany could ever have decisively defeated the Soviet Union and occupied all of European Russia. I doubt it, Operation Barbarossa was total hubris and the German plans had failed even in their modified form by late 1942/early 1943, and that was before America decisively entered the war in North Africa and Europe, and iirc also before most of the Western lend-lease shipments to the Soviet Union. But I suppose there might have been some sort of extended stalemate.
    But in any case, Roosevelt’s actions turned the US into the dominant world power, at the cost of the lowest casualties of all combatant powers. So the criticism of him by US paleoconservatives always seems rather exaggerated to me.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    @German_reader

    John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan's point of departure is November, 1940.

    Because he is citing Ron Unz's essay about the 1940 Presidential election, this means he means that an "isolationist" Republican (not Wendell Wilkie) wins the 1940 Presidential election. Senator Robert "Mr. Conservative" Taft of Ohio for instance.

    Hitler decided to invade the USSR after Molotov's disastrous visit to Berlin in October, 1940.

    Owing to the anti-German foreign policy of the Roosevelt administration, including a stated plan to build 50,000 aircraft per year and supply them to Britain, relatively few industrial resources in advance of Operation Barbarossa were allocated to strengthening the army. Much more were allocated to capital investments and the other services (who also had access to better personnel).

    It is possible that with an isolationist victory in the 1940 US election that Germany would've invested more into strengthening the army, and that this would've provided the necessary margin of victory during Barbarossa.

    I am personally a believer that a neutral, isolationist US would've resulted in a German victory. People like to claim that most Lend-Lease was shipped in the latter years of the war, but this is because because American production kept skyrocketing. Then there are people who claim that the "tide turned" at the end of 1942, as if the war followed lunar phases.

    Even in the absence of a victory in Barbarossa, the following should be considered:

    • US production plans causing Germany to shift its production priorities (as noted earlier)
    • Soviet manpower attrition exceeded German attrition in percentage terms until the middle of 1944
    • The impact of Lend-Lease on the British war effort (generally forgotten, and Britain got more than the USSR)
    • German manpower and materiel diversions to other fronts increased after Stalingrad
    • Lend-Lease providing:



    -58% of the USSR's high octane aviation fuel
    -33% of their motor vehicles
    -53% of USSR domestic production of expended ordnance (artillery shells, mines, assorted explosives)
    -30% of fighters and bombers
    -93% of railway equipment (locomotives, freight cars, wide gauge rails, etc.)
    -50–80% of rolled steel, cable, lead, and aluminium
    -43% of garage facilities (building materials & blueprints)
    -12% of tanks and SPGs
    -50% of TNT (1942-1944) and 33% of ammunition powder (in 1944)[54]
    -16% of all explosives (from 1941–1945, the USSR produced 505,000 tons of explosives and received 105,000 tons of Lend-Lease imports)
     
    Obviously German victory isn't guaranteed in such a scenario. It's well known that German intelligence on the USSR was poor and that they (obviously) underestimated the Red Army. So perhaps production plans wouldn't have changed (there was still the need to defeat Britain). No decision in 1941 then, and hard to imagine one in 1942. Does the German army, freed of an Italian front and the Atlantic Wall, go on to beat the USSR in 1943 or 1944? Maybe.

    Britain's power, especially that of Bomber Command, is often underappreciated. Bomber Command could've collapsed the German war economy in 1943 had they kept hammering the Ruhr. Instead, they shifted to Berlin. How much weaker is Bomber Command in this scenario? German air defenses are unlikely to be much stronger.

    Replies: @German_reader, @LondonBob, @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan, @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan

    , @Hyperborean
    @German_reader


    Operation Barbarossa was total hubris
     
    Why that name though? I would have chosen to call it something more fortuitous like Operation Arminius.

    Replies: @German_reader, @neutral

    , @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan
    @German_reader

    I don't believe that our being the dominant world power has made us any better as a nation in the most important metric, which is moral excellence - arete. I drive from Pennsylvania to the Midwest and see a heartbroken place of absurdly unreasonable decay.

    Although some of the paleocons, like Pat Buchanan, really don't have a big problem with American foreign policy until relatively recently. Buchanan is rather quietly a bit of a Russophobe, at least by today's dissident right standards. Guys like that don't seem to mind being less than isolationist, but they do decry the decline in the nation's interior. Maybe this is what Trumpism is really all about.

    , @Konstantin
    @German_reader

    It's not widely known as well that Germany had advanced TV network, including broadcasting of 1936 Olympics and even soccer matches for wounded soldiers in hospitals during WWII. Extremely efficient media propagandists like Goebbels would've ensured 3rd Reich media domination in the post-war world.

    Replies: @German_reader

  8. PC

    You might not need to upgrade for a very long time in light of the end of Moore’s Law.

    The Haswell generation (4th) of Intel Core processors is nearly as powerful as the current 8th generation.

    The disadvantages in your setup compared to the latest technology are in the data buses:

    • DDR3 instead of DDR4
    • No NVMe
    • No Thunderbolt

    DDR4 is a minor improvement and not noticeable for most users.

    NVMe is a substantial improvement, but a SATA3 SSD is still speedy enough for most users. If desperate to improve you can use a PCI-E card SSD or configure a SATA RAID 0 array.

    Thunderbolt is irrelevant for your needs.

    I would not be surprised if this system is satisfactory for your needs a decade from now.

    It appears that a 2.5″ SSD is mounted on top of the cage containing an obsolete Western Digital spinning platter hard drive. If that’s not an SSD, I would advise upgrading to a SSD prior to upgrading RAM. Fortunately flash memory prices are in the tank right now so SSD prices are dirt cheap.

    No opinion on the GPU as I don’t game.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @Thorfinnsson


    (4th) of Intel Core processors is nearly as powerful as the current 8th generation.
     
    As diminishing returns, of the software, GPU, etc. (If he doesn't upgrade his GPU too much).

    In terms of raw performance, it would be destroyed by the latest generations.

    I think it will be fine for 60 fps gaming nonetheless, if he does not use other programs, at the same time....

    But, maybe with the RTX 2060 , it will be underpowered though and just bottleneck a new GPU?

    With this processor, I guess it would be more suitable to match with something like a 1070? I'm no expert, but I would assume 1070 would be more suitable to match it with?

    , @Anatoly Karlin
    @Thorfinnsson

    Correct, that's (my own) SSD.

    @ Dmitry,


    With this processor, I guess it would be more suitable to match with something like a 1070? I’m no expert, but I would assume 1070 would be more suitable to match it with?
     
    1070 has very similar performance to 1660-Ti but is almost three years old and just as expensive. No real point to it.

    Replies: @Dmitry, @donnyess

  9. @szopen
    @Mr. Hack

    Szukalski thought Picasso was Fartist and Pic-ass-hole, and Szukalski was genius, soooo ... :D

    (OTOH, Szukalski was also a complete nut plus he was Russophobe)

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    Szukalski miał pierdnięcie mózgu! 🙂

  10. It’s a photograph of a bomb site, not a photograph of a bombsight.

    You do raise a good point none the less. Bombsights of the period were also great works of art.

    If found in a ditch with bones and spearheads strewn about, this would have a place of pride in the British Museum. Instead it suffers in obscurity at the Imperial War Museum, a facility whose main purpose is the burnishing of Bernard Law Montgomery’s reputation.

    It’s obviously greater than anything Picasso ever produced.

    • Agree: melanf
    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @Thorfinnsson

    Looks to me like you may have missed your calling in life, Thorfinnsson. Perhaps, you should have gone to thunderbird school right after high school? You could have been a real hero too (notice the shiny, brand new bombsight camera?):

    http://www.twinbeech.com/images/Aircraft/manufacturers/boeing/B-29series/EnolaGay/ThomasFerebee.jpg

    Think of all of the mangled and incinerated bodies. I doubt that many bones would be left for your magnum opus photo, though?....

    Replies: @songbird

  11. @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan
    RE: LondonBob's Civil War post, with which I mostly agree, as far as alternative history goes when it comes to Britain and America, Ron Unz gave us a good starting point from where we can wander into asking what might have been if a bunch of Limey spies and Roosevelt hadn't attacked our formerly peaceful country

    https://www.unz.com/runz/american-pravda-alexander-cockburn-and-the-british-spies/

    But an even better question is, what if that troll Teddy Roosevelt hadn't put Wilson into the White House? Would Taft, et al, have stopped the Fed? And it certainly seems a Taft administration, followed presumably by another Republican victory in 1916, would have stopped U.S. intervention in World War 1. Or was it all inevitable?

    America's "special relationship" with Britain. Pardon me while I vomit in my mouth.

    Replies: @German_reader, @LondonBob

    The Roosevelt administration was a key driver of WWII, as much so as Hitler. See The Forrestal Diaries and Joe Kennedy relaying Neville Chamberlain’s thoughts on the matter. War might have been avoided otherwise.

    Had the Republican vote not been split then there was a good chance the US would have entered WWI a lot earlier and Germany been defeated a lot sooner.

    https://www.saturdayeveningpost.com/2014/04/roosevelt-1912/

    • Replies: @LondonBob
    @LondonBob

    https://www.ihr.org/jhr/v04/v04p135_Weber.html

    The IHR do some very good work, but obviously they have their own axes to grind.

  12. @LondonBob
    @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan

    The Roosevelt administration was a key driver of WWII, as much so as Hitler. See The Forrestal Diaries and Joe Kennedy relaying Neville Chamberlain's thoughts on the matter. War might have been avoided otherwise.

    Had the Republican vote not been split then there was a good chance the US would have entered WWI a lot earlier and Germany been defeated a lot sooner.

    https://www.saturdayeveningpost.com/2014/04/roosevelt-1912/

    Replies: @LondonBob

    https://www.ihr.org/jhr/v04/v04p135_Weber.html

    The IHR do some very good work, but obviously they have their own axes to grind.

  13. @German_reader
    @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan


    Ron Unz gave us a good starting point from where we can wander into asking what might have been if a bunch of Limey spies and Roosevelt hadn’t attacked our formerly peaceful country
     
    Nazi Germany could have become potentially quite dangerous to the US if it had successfully conquered Eurasia. It did have fairly advanced technology by the standards of the time after all, especially in rocket development. I guess it comes down to the question whether Hitler's ambitions were limited to Europe or global, at least in the long term.
    Another crucial question of course is whether Germany could ever have decisively defeated the Soviet Union and occupied all of European Russia. I doubt it, Operation Barbarossa was total hubris and the German plans had failed even in their modified form by late 1942/early 1943, and that was before America decisively entered the war in North Africa and Europe, and iirc also before most of the Western lend-lease shipments to the Soviet Union. But I suppose there might have been some sort of extended stalemate.
    But in any case, Roosevelt's actions turned the US into the dominant world power, at the cost of the lowest casualties of all combatant powers. So the criticism of him by US paleoconservatives always seems rather exaggerated to me.

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson, @Hyperborean, @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan, @Konstantin

    John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan’s point of departure is November, 1940.

    Because he is citing Ron Unz’s essay about the 1940 Presidential election, this means he means that an “isolationist” Republican (not Wendell Wilkie) wins the 1940 Presidential election. Senator Robert “Mr. Conservative” Taft of Ohio for instance.

    Hitler decided to invade the USSR after Molotov’s disastrous visit to Berlin in October, 1940.

    Owing to the anti-German foreign policy of the Roosevelt administration, including a stated plan to build 50,000 aircraft per year and supply them to Britain, relatively few industrial resources in advance of Operation Barbarossa were allocated to strengthening the army. Much more were allocated to capital investments and the other services (who also had access to better personnel).

    It is possible that with an isolationist victory in the 1940 US election that Germany would’ve invested more into strengthening the army, and that this would’ve provided the necessary margin of victory during Barbarossa.

    I am personally a believer that a neutral, isolationist US would’ve resulted in a German victory. People like to claim that most Lend-Lease was shipped in the latter years of the war, but this is because because American production kept skyrocketing. Then there are people who claim that the “tide turned” at the end of 1942, as if the war followed lunar phases.

    Even in the absence of a victory in Barbarossa, the following should be considered:

    • US production plans causing Germany to shift its production priorities (as noted earlier)
    • Soviet manpower attrition exceeded German attrition in percentage terms until the middle of 1944
    • The impact of Lend-Lease on the British war effort (generally forgotten, and Britain got more than the USSR)
    • German manpower and materiel diversions to other fronts increased after Stalingrad
    • Lend-Lease providing:

    -58% of the USSR’s high octane aviation fuel
    -33% of their motor vehicles
    -53% of USSR domestic production of expended ordnance (artillery shells, mines, assorted explosives)
    -30% of fighters and bombers
    -93% of railway equipment (locomotives, freight cars, wide gauge rails, etc.)
    -50–80% of rolled steel, cable, lead, and aluminium
    -43% of garage facilities (building materials & blueprints)
    -12% of tanks and SPGs
    -50% of TNT (1942-1944) and 33% of ammunition powder (in 1944)[54]
    -16% of all explosives (from 1941–1945, the USSR produced 505,000 tons of explosives and received 105,000 tons of Lend-Lease imports)

    Obviously German victory isn’t guaranteed in such a scenario. It’s well known that German intelligence on the USSR was poor and that they (obviously) underestimated the Red Army. So perhaps production plans wouldn’t have changed (there was still the need to defeat Britain). No decision in 1941 then, and hard to imagine one in 1942. Does the German army, freed of an Italian front and the Atlantic Wall, go on to beat the USSR in 1943 or 1944? Maybe.

    Britain’s power, especially that of Bomber Command, is often underappreciated. Bomber Command could’ve collapsed the German war economy in 1943 had they kept hammering the Ruhr. Instead, they shifted to Berlin. How much weaker is Bomber Command in this scenario? German air defenses are unlikely to be much stronger.

    • Agree: Anatoly Karlin
    • Replies: @German_reader
    @Thorfinnsson


    US production plans causing Germany to shift its production priorities (as noted earlier)
     
    shifted to what? Submarines would have been necessary anyway for the war against Britain, and the Luftwaffe remained a force used mostly for tactical support of ground troops, with all attempts at creating aircraft capable of strategic bombing unsuccesful and only pursued later in the war (and those weren't just caused by considerations of the war against the western powers, there was also the idea of building an Uralbomber to strike Soviet industry in the Urals region).

    It’s well known that German intelligence on the USSR was poor and that they (obviously) underestimated the Red Army. So perhaps production plans wouldn’t have changed (there was still the need to defeat Britain).
     
    Given how absurdly confident Hitler and his generals were of victory in June/July 1941 (they really thought the Soviet Union would collapse in a few weeks), this seems likely to me.
    They really had no idea about Soviet capabilities. I'm currently reading a German book about the Wehrmacht, and the picture that emerges of Barbarossa is one of absolute hubris (e.g. the well-known fact that only a fairly small part of the Wehrmacht was motorized, the inferiority of German tanks to some Soviet designs, only compensated in 1941 by better German tactics, use of radio etc., the divisions destined for occupation duties in the rear being grotesquely under-manned and under-equipped, and much more).

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson

    , @LondonBob
    @Thorfinnsson

    You ignore the high likelihood of Britain agreeing to Hitler's very generous peace offers without the assurance of the US entering the war.

    Anyway the idea Britain was so influential on US politics is just not grounded in reality, wasn't in WWI, even less so in regard to WWII. In both cases the Jewish influence was decisive, and many other lobbies were active too. Akin to those today ranting about Russians but not Israelis.

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson, @utu

    , @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan
    @Thorfinnsson


    Because he is citing Ron Unz’s essay about the 1940 Presidential election, this means he means that an “isolationist” Republican (not Wendell Wilkie) wins the 1940 Presidential election. Senator Robert “Mr. Conservative” Taft of Ohio for instance.

     

    There was a great paranoid Jewish perspective about the 1940 election in which Charles Lindbergh somehow gets the GOP nomination and becomes President. The perspective was in a novel by Philip Roth called 'The Plot Against America.' Luckily no characters spend time acting out sexual fantasies with baked goods or plants, as in other Roth novels.

    Since the novel was written by a bizarre person (Roth), obviously the heinous criminal Lindbergh creates an anti-Semitic America, or something.

    Bill Kauffman wrote a very funny and derisive review of this book

    https://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/heil-to-the-chief/

    , @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan
    @Thorfinnsson


    -93% of railway equipment (locomotives, freight cars, wide gauge rails, etc.)
     
    !!!

    Good grief!!
  14. @Thorfinnsson
    It's a photograph of a bomb site, not a photograph of a bombsight.

    You do raise a good point none the less. Bombsights of the period were also great works of art.

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4c/Norden_bombsight-IMG_6401-gradient.jpg

    If found in a ditch with bones and spearheads strewn about, this would have a place of pride in the British Museum. Instead it suffers in obscurity at the Imperial War Museum, a facility whose main purpose is the burnishing of Bernard Law Montgomery's reputation.

    It's obviously greater than anything Picasso ever produced.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    Looks to me like you may have missed your calling in life, Thorfinnsson. Perhaps, you should have gone to thunderbird school right after high school? You could have been a real hero too (notice the shiny, brand new bombsight camera?):

    Think of all of the mangled and incinerated bodies. I doubt that many bones would be left for your magnum opus photo, though?….

    • LOL: utu
    • Replies: @songbird
    @Mr. Hack

    I think the utility of bombsights is probably somewhat overtated. They were certainly oversold, but it's questionable whether they really needed a bombsight for Hiroshima. However, I suppose that one could make the argument that it was a political necessity to give the lie to precision bombing in order to spend the vast resources necessary to develop the B-29 and put it into production, that the A-bomb dropped to airburst over Japan is really the penultimate culmination of the bombsight. With the H-bomb being the final product.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

  15. German_reader says:
    @Thorfinnsson
    @German_reader

    John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan's point of departure is November, 1940.

    Because he is citing Ron Unz's essay about the 1940 Presidential election, this means he means that an "isolationist" Republican (not Wendell Wilkie) wins the 1940 Presidential election. Senator Robert "Mr. Conservative" Taft of Ohio for instance.

    Hitler decided to invade the USSR after Molotov's disastrous visit to Berlin in October, 1940.

    Owing to the anti-German foreign policy of the Roosevelt administration, including a stated plan to build 50,000 aircraft per year and supply them to Britain, relatively few industrial resources in advance of Operation Barbarossa were allocated to strengthening the army. Much more were allocated to capital investments and the other services (who also had access to better personnel).

    It is possible that with an isolationist victory in the 1940 US election that Germany would've invested more into strengthening the army, and that this would've provided the necessary margin of victory during Barbarossa.

    I am personally a believer that a neutral, isolationist US would've resulted in a German victory. People like to claim that most Lend-Lease was shipped in the latter years of the war, but this is because because American production kept skyrocketing. Then there are people who claim that the "tide turned" at the end of 1942, as if the war followed lunar phases.

    Even in the absence of a victory in Barbarossa, the following should be considered:

    • US production plans causing Germany to shift its production priorities (as noted earlier)
    • Soviet manpower attrition exceeded German attrition in percentage terms until the middle of 1944
    • The impact of Lend-Lease on the British war effort (generally forgotten, and Britain got more than the USSR)
    • German manpower and materiel diversions to other fronts increased after Stalingrad
    • Lend-Lease providing:



    -58% of the USSR's high octane aviation fuel
    -33% of their motor vehicles
    -53% of USSR domestic production of expended ordnance (artillery shells, mines, assorted explosives)
    -30% of fighters and bombers
    -93% of railway equipment (locomotives, freight cars, wide gauge rails, etc.)
    -50–80% of rolled steel, cable, lead, and aluminium
    -43% of garage facilities (building materials & blueprints)
    -12% of tanks and SPGs
    -50% of TNT (1942-1944) and 33% of ammunition powder (in 1944)[54]
    -16% of all explosives (from 1941–1945, the USSR produced 505,000 tons of explosives and received 105,000 tons of Lend-Lease imports)
     
    Obviously German victory isn't guaranteed in such a scenario. It's well known that German intelligence on the USSR was poor and that they (obviously) underestimated the Red Army. So perhaps production plans wouldn't have changed (there was still the need to defeat Britain). No decision in 1941 then, and hard to imagine one in 1942. Does the German army, freed of an Italian front and the Atlantic Wall, go on to beat the USSR in 1943 or 1944? Maybe.

    Britain's power, especially that of Bomber Command, is often underappreciated. Bomber Command could've collapsed the German war economy in 1943 had they kept hammering the Ruhr. Instead, they shifted to Berlin. How much weaker is Bomber Command in this scenario? German air defenses are unlikely to be much stronger.

    Replies: @German_reader, @LondonBob, @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan, @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan

    US production plans causing Germany to shift its production priorities (as noted earlier)

    shifted to what? Submarines would have been necessary anyway for the war against Britain, and the Luftwaffe remained a force used mostly for tactical support of ground troops, with all attempts at creating aircraft capable of strategic bombing unsuccesful and only pursued later in the war (and those weren’t just caused by considerations of the war against the western powers, there was also the idea of building an Uralbomber to strike Soviet industry in the Urals region).

    It’s well known that German intelligence on the USSR was poor and that they (obviously) underestimated the Red Army. So perhaps production plans wouldn’t have changed (there was still the need to defeat Britain).

    Given how absurdly confident Hitler and his generals were of victory in June/July 1941 (they really thought the Soviet Union would collapse in a few weeks), this seems likely to me.
    They really had no idea about Soviet capabilities. I’m currently reading a German book about the Wehrmacht, and the picture that emerges of Barbarossa is one of absolute hubris (e.g. the well-known fact that only a fairly small part of the Wehrmacht was motorized, the inferiority of German tanks to some Soviet designs, only compensated in 1941 by better German tactics, use of radio etc., the divisions destined for occupation duties in the rear being grotesquely under-manned and under-equipped, and much more).

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    @German_reader



    shifted to what? Submarines would have been necessary anyway for the war against Britain, and the Luftwaffe remained a force used mostly for tactical support of ground troops, with all attempts at creating aircraft capable of strategic bombing unsuccesful and only pursued later in the war (and those weren’t just caused by considerations of the war against the western powers, there was also the idea of building an Uralbomber to strike Soviet industry in the Urals region).
     
    Between the Fall of France and the start of Barbarossa:

    • Massive capital investments--the largest investment boom in German history
    • U-boat production tripled
    • Aircraft production increased 40%
    • Aircraft manufacturing workforce grew 40% (effects of this not seen until 1942)
    • Munitions production was cut from 36% of expenditures to 20% (owing to large stocks--22m 10.5cm howitzer shells were in inventory in September, 1940)
    • Vehicles & weapons production increased 54%
    • Army's steel ration cut by one-third
    • Exports increased 25%

    The basic goal of Ruestungsprogramm B was to prepare for a long war against the Anglo-Americans while still increasing the striking power of the army, which was done by doubling the number of Panzer divisions and increasing the amount of artillery guns in the infantry. This was done on the cheap by restricting the production of munitions as excess stocks had been produced in advance of the invasion of France. The freed resources were allocated to capital investments, the navy, and exports.

    The capital investments should be further explained. Gigantic investments had already begun in 1938, but after the Fall of France the largest investments ever in German history (relative terms) were made. Nothing of the sort occurred in Britain or the USSR (though the USA made gigantic investments). These investments were all made for the global war against the Anglo-Americans.

    Some of the investments made include:

    • Henschel & Sohn added 100,000 square meters of factory floor space in Kassel
    • Nibelungen tank factory constructed in St Valentin, Austria
    • Vomag in Plauen and Maschinenfabrik Niedersachsen works converted to tank production
    • IG Farben commenced construction on fuel plants to raise production from 4.3m tons to 10m by 1945
    • Work began on the Auschwitz factory complex, a 1.3bn Reichsmark investment (13bn Euros today)
    • 2.5bn Reichsmarks on other chemicals projects
    • 400m Reichsmark investment to raise Norwegian aluminum production from 46,000 tons to 200,000 tons by 1944
    • 1.5bn Reichsmark investment to increase Grossraum aluminum production to 1m tons
    • 685m Reichsmark investment to build the Flugmotorenwerk Ost in Austria with a planned output of 1,000 aero engines per month (this turned into a fiasco)
    • 170m Reichsmark investment to increase production of Daimler-Benz inverted V-12 aero engines at Genshagen (major success--actual output reached over 1,200 engines per month in 1944)
    • 5.2bn Reichsmarks into all Luftwaffe industries from 1939-1942 (explains much of the "armaments miracle")

    In the absence of American involvement, perhaps more would've been allocated to current weapons production. Alternatively, Britain and the USSR would've faced a massive flood of German production in 1943 and later without a corresponding flood of American production.

    Figures are from Adam Tooze's book The Wages of Destruction.


    Given how absurdly confident Hitler and his generals were of victory in June/July 1941 (they really thought the Soviet Union would collapse in a few weeks), this seems likely to me.
    They really had no idea about Soviet capabilities. I’m currently reading a German book about the Wehrmacht, and the picture that emerges of Barbarossa is one of absolute hubris (e.g. the well-known fact that only a fairly small part of the Wehrmacht was motorized, the inferiority of German tanks to some Soviet designs, only compensated in 1941 by better German tactics, use of radio etc., the divisions destined for occupation duties in the rear being grotesquely under-manned and under-equipped, and much more).
     
    Monday morning quarterbacking is easy.

    The situation in the fall of 1940 was that the Luftwaffe had failed to defeat Britain, the Kriegsmarine was a tiny force, and Germany was facing a long global war against the vastly superior combined resources of the United States and British Empire. At the same time it was falling into dangerous dependence on the Soviet Union.

    Unlike the Luftwaffe, the German Army had seemingly proven itself as an apparently invincible war winning weapon. Conquering Russia would solve Germany's raw materials problem and provide it with all the resources it required to face the Anglo-American onslaught.

    While one shouldn't excuse German hubris and poor intelligence, the fact that the Red Army had assembled more tanks and aircraft than the rest of the world combined was certainly shocking to everyone. So too was the size of the Red Army and the ability of Soviet leadership to rapidly form divisions. The Germans had expected to face 200 divisions, but by the time Barbarossa concluded they had faced something like 700 Soviet divisions.

    A lot of very advanced Soviet weapons did appear in 1940-1941 (not just the T-34 but also the ZiS-2 57mm anti-tank gun, the M1939 85mm flak cannon, the A-19 122mm field gun, the Yak-3, etc.), but fortunately relatively little of it was in service in 1941. The Il-2 also entered service that year but Great Patriotic War mythology aside it was a bad aircraft and should not have entered service.

    Also working in favor of the invading Germans was the continuing presence in the Soviet high command of very big-brained individuals like Artillery Directorate Chief Grigory Kulik, who had the inventor of the automatic grenade launcher executed and considered land mines to be a weapon of cowards. One of the reasons the T-34s encountered in 1941 were not a threat (aside from bad training, bad manufacturing quality, and bad deployment) was that Kulik deliberately sabotaged their anti-tank armament by supply an inferior gun and reducing the allocation of shells to the tanks.

    It's true that the Wehrmacht was not motorized (and in fact progressively demotorized throughout the war), but the Red Army was not either. Obviously the lack of trucks caused enormous problems, but none the less the Germans advanced into the USSR in 1941 as fast as the Americans did into Iraq in 2003.

    Replies: @German_reader, @Gerard2, @Epigon, @Grahamsno(G64)

  16. @Mr. Hack
    @Thorfinnsson

    Looks to me like you may have missed your calling in life, Thorfinnsson. Perhaps, you should have gone to thunderbird school right after high school? You could have been a real hero too (notice the shiny, brand new bombsight camera?):

    http://www.twinbeech.com/images/Aircraft/manufacturers/boeing/B-29series/EnolaGay/ThomasFerebee.jpg

    Think of all of the mangled and incinerated bodies. I doubt that many bones would be left for your magnum opus photo, though?....

    Replies: @songbird

    I think the utility of bombsights is probably somewhat overtated. They were certainly oversold, but it’s questionable whether they really needed a bombsight for Hiroshima. However, I suppose that one could make the argument that it was a political necessity to give the lie to precision bombing in order to spend the vast resources necessary to develop the B-29 and put it into production, that the A-bomb dropped to airburst over Japan is really the penultimate culmination of the bombsight. With the H-bomb being the final product.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @songbird

    Well, not quite. The 'utility' and 'final product' for the whole affair was upwards of 166,000 people killed. Here's the 'work of art' that Thorfinnsonn dreams about:

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a0/Hiroshima_aftermath.jpg

    Replies: @DFH, @AP, @Adam

  17. @Thorfinnsson
    @German_reader

    John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan's point of departure is November, 1940.

    Because he is citing Ron Unz's essay about the 1940 Presidential election, this means he means that an "isolationist" Republican (not Wendell Wilkie) wins the 1940 Presidential election. Senator Robert "Mr. Conservative" Taft of Ohio for instance.

    Hitler decided to invade the USSR after Molotov's disastrous visit to Berlin in October, 1940.

    Owing to the anti-German foreign policy of the Roosevelt administration, including a stated plan to build 50,000 aircraft per year and supply them to Britain, relatively few industrial resources in advance of Operation Barbarossa were allocated to strengthening the army. Much more were allocated to capital investments and the other services (who also had access to better personnel).

    It is possible that with an isolationist victory in the 1940 US election that Germany would've invested more into strengthening the army, and that this would've provided the necessary margin of victory during Barbarossa.

    I am personally a believer that a neutral, isolationist US would've resulted in a German victory. People like to claim that most Lend-Lease was shipped in the latter years of the war, but this is because because American production kept skyrocketing. Then there are people who claim that the "tide turned" at the end of 1942, as if the war followed lunar phases.

    Even in the absence of a victory in Barbarossa, the following should be considered:

    • US production plans causing Germany to shift its production priorities (as noted earlier)
    • Soviet manpower attrition exceeded German attrition in percentage terms until the middle of 1944
    • The impact of Lend-Lease on the British war effort (generally forgotten, and Britain got more than the USSR)
    • German manpower and materiel diversions to other fronts increased after Stalingrad
    • Lend-Lease providing:



    -58% of the USSR's high octane aviation fuel
    -33% of their motor vehicles
    -53% of USSR domestic production of expended ordnance (artillery shells, mines, assorted explosives)
    -30% of fighters and bombers
    -93% of railway equipment (locomotives, freight cars, wide gauge rails, etc.)
    -50–80% of rolled steel, cable, lead, and aluminium
    -43% of garage facilities (building materials & blueprints)
    -12% of tanks and SPGs
    -50% of TNT (1942-1944) and 33% of ammunition powder (in 1944)[54]
    -16% of all explosives (from 1941–1945, the USSR produced 505,000 tons of explosives and received 105,000 tons of Lend-Lease imports)
     
    Obviously German victory isn't guaranteed in such a scenario. It's well known that German intelligence on the USSR was poor and that they (obviously) underestimated the Red Army. So perhaps production plans wouldn't have changed (there was still the need to defeat Britain). No decision in 1941 then, and hard to imagine one in 1942. Does the German army, freed of an Italian front and the Atlantic Wall, go on to beat the USSR in 1943 or 1944? Maybe.

    Britain's power, especially that of Bomber Command, is often underappreciated. Bomber Command could've collapsed the German war economy in 1943 had they kept hammering the Ruhr. Instead, they shifted to Berlin. How much weaker is Bomber Command in this scenario? German air defenses are unlikely to be much stronger.

    Replies: @German_reader, @LondonBob, @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan, @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan

    You ignore the high likelihood of Britain agreeing to Hitler’s very generous peace offers without the assurance of the US entering the war.

    Anyway the idea Britain was so influential on US politics is just not grounded in reality, wasn’t in WWI, even less so in regard to WWII. In both cases the Jewish influence was decisive, and many other lobbies were active too. Akin to those today ranting about Russians but not Israelis.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    @LondonBob

    A very good point.

    If FDR had been defeated, Churchill might well have been replaced leading to a peace agreement with the Germans.

    Jews were obviously pushing America towards war, but Unz's essay about British influence is interesting and eye-opening:

    https://www.unz.com/runz/american-pravda-alexander-cockburn-and-the-british-spies/

    It's also not just a matter of alien influence. Much of America's WASP establishment, still in control at that time, favored intervention. Foreign Policy magazine helpfully has its archives online, and you can read all sorts of dreck from 1940 about the American need to enter the war or at least support Britain.

    Gallup opinion polling in 1939 also asked Americans if they should help their British "blood brothers" which I found interesting.

    American public opinion was largely opposed to intervention, but tellingly almost no one was in favor of joining the Axis whereas a substantial minority favored aiding or joining the Allies. This despite the fact that obviously America stood to gain from dismembering the British Empire and once and for all eliminating the hideous Canuckist Entity from the map.

    Replies: @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan

    , @utu
    @LondonBob

    From 21 November 1938 report by Ambassador Potocki on conversation with Ambassador Bullitt


    As the Soviet Union’s potential strength is not yet known, it might happen that Germany would have moved too far away from its base, and would be condemned to wage a long and weakening war. Only then would the democratic countries attack Germany, Bullitt declared, and force her to capitulate.

    In reply to my question whether the United States would take part in such a war, he said, ‘Undoubtedly yes, but only after Great Britain and France had let loose first!’
     

    FDR knew what he wanted.

    Hoover would document his conversations with the various people he met with. An example is provided of Hoover’s meeting with Kennedy on May 15, 1945. Kennedy indicated he had over 900 dispatches which he could not print without consent of the U.S. Government. He hoped one day to receive such permission as it was Kennedy’s intention to write a book that would:

    …put an entirely different color on the process of how America got into the war and would prove the betrayal of the American people by Franklin D, Roosevelt.

    …Roosevelt and Bullitt were the major factors in the British making their guarantees to Poland and becoming involved in the war. Kennedy said that Bullitt, under instructions from Roosevelt, was constantly urging the Poles not to make terms with the Germans and that he Kennedy, under instructions from Roosevelt, was constantly urging the British to make guarantees to the Poles.

    He said that after Chamberlain had given these guarantees, Chamberlain told him (Kennedy) that he hoped the Americans and the Jews would now be satisfied but that he (Chamberlain) felt that he had signed the doom of civilization.

    Kennedy said that if it had not been for Roosevelt the British would not have made this most gigantic blunder in history.

    Kennedy told me that he thought Roosevelt was in communication with Churchill, who was the leader of the opposition to Chamberlain, before Chamberlain was thrown out of office….
     

    James Forrestal, Under Secretary of the Navy, documented in his diaries a substantially similar conversation with Kennedy.
     
    Hoover's Secret History of the Second World War ... edited by George H. Nash
    https://books.google.com/books?id=ugFyjRLHPzcC&pg=PT761&lpg=PT761&dq=Ambassador+Potocki+on+conversation+with+Ambassador+Bullitt&source=bl&ots=D7zhs3vpcP&sig=ACfU3U1Hmz5emuNqS-66TFyApHESMkKS1Q&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjI0ar7x5ThAhVCiOAKHeVpDM4Q6AEwBnoECAgQAQ#v=onepage&q=Ambassador%20Potocki%20on%20conversation%20with%20Ambassador%20Bullitt&f=false
  18. @songbird
    @Mr. Hack

    I think the utility of bombsights is probably somewhat overtated. They were certainly oversold, but it's questionable whether they really needed a bombsight for Hiroshima. However, I suppose that one could make the argument that it was a political necessity to give the lie to precision bombing in order to spend the vast resources necessary to develop the B-29 and put it into production, that the A-bomb dropped to airburst over Japan is really the penultimate culmination of the bombsight. With the H-bomb being the final product.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    Well, not quite. The ‘utility’ and ‘final product’ for the whole affair was upwards of 166,000 people killed. Here’s the ‘work of art’ that Thorfinnsonn dreams about:

    • Replies: @DFH
    @Mr. Hack

    Weren't you apologising for a civilisation that ritually slaughtered thousands of people about ten minutes ago?

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    , @AP
    @Mr. Hack

    Thorfinnson once posted the link to this good essay about that:

    https://www.uio.no/studier/emner/hf/iakh/HIS1300MET/v12/undervisningsmateriale/Fussel%20-%20thank%20god%20for%20the%20atom%20bomb.pdf

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    , @Adam
    @Mr. Hack

    Are you really butthurt? He was just making a joke about Picasso's shitty art.

  19. @Mr. Hack
    @songbird

    Well, not quite. The 'utility' and 'final product' for the whole affair was upwards of 166,000 people killed. Here's the 'work of art' that Thorfinnsonn dreams about:

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a0/Hiroshima_aftermath.jpg

    Replies: @DFH, @AP, @Adam

    Weren’t you apologising for a civilisation that ritually slaughtered thousands of people about ten minutes ago?

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @DFH

    I still am.

  20. @Mr. Hack
    @songbird

    Well, not quite. The 'utility' and 'final product' for the whole affair was upwards of 166,000 people killed. Here's the 'work of art' that Thorfinnsonn dreams about:

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a0/Hiroshima_aftermath.jpg

    Replies: @DFH, @AP, @Adam

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @AP

    It's indeed an interesting essay that presents a good, balanced view of the complex motives that precipitated the dropping of two A-bombs over Japan. It frames the question of the morality of the decision, in the eyes of those opposed to it quite accurately:


    that those for whom he use of the A-bomb was “wrong” seem to be implying “that it would have been better to allow thousands on thousands of American and Japanese infantrymen to die in honest hand-to-hand combat on the beaches than to drop those two bombs.”
     
    Also, throughout the piece the author emphasizes that it's easier to make judgements after the fact , than to be on the ground fighting a ferocious war faced with pragmatic considerations.

    For me, the overriding factor is indeed that so many civilians were wasted. Soldiers are by design created to fight wars, civilians are not. This is one of the reasons, I suppose that you are so adamantly opposed to the wasting of Polish civilians in Volhynia by bloodthirsty UPA troops? The principle is the same, only the scope of casualties is so very much larger. Who had the moral authority to shift the soldier's responsibility over to an unwary civilian population?

    Replies: @Anatoly Karlin, @Thorfinnsson, @DFH

  21. @DFH
    @Mr. Hack

    Weren't you apologising for a civilisation that ritually slaughtered thousands of people about ten minutes ago?

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    I still am.

  22. @Mr. Hack
    @songbird

    Well, not quite. The 'utility' and 'final product' for the whole affair was upwards of 166,000 people killed. Here's the 'work of art' that Thorfinnsonn dreams about:

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a0/Hiroshima_aftermath.jpg

    Replies: @DFH, @AP, @Adam

    Are you really butthurt? He was just making a joke about Picasso’s shitty art.

  23. @German_reader
    @Thorfinnsson


    US production plans causing Germany to shift its production priorities (as noted earlier)
     
    shifted to what? Submarines would have been necessary anyway for the war against Britain, and the Luftwaffe remained a force used mostly for tactical support of ground troops, with all attempts at creating aircraft capable of strategic bombing unsuccesful and only pursued later in the war (and those weren't just caused by considerations of the war against the western powers, there was also the idea of building an Uralbomber to strike Soviet industry in the Urals region).

    It’s well known that German intelligence on the USSR was poor and that they (obviously) underestimated the Red Army. So perhaps production plans wouldn’t have changed (there was still the need to defeat Britain).
     
    Given how absurdly confident Hitler and his generals were of victory in June/July 1941 (they really thought the Soviet Union would collapse in a few weeks), this seems likely to me.
    They really had no idea about Soviet capabilities. I'm currently reading a German book about the Wehrmacht, and the picture that emerges of Barbarossa is one of absolute hubris (e.g. the well-known fact that only a fairly small part of the Wehrmacht was motorized, the inferiority of German tanks to some Soviet designs, only compensated in 1941 by better German tactics, use of radio etc., the divisions destined for occupation duties in the rear being grotesquely under-manned and under-equipped, and much more).

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson

    shifted to what? Submarines would have been necessary anyway for the war against Britain, and the Luftwaffe remained a force used mostly for tactical support of ground troops, with all attempts at creating aircraft capable of strategic bombing unsuccesful and only pursued later in the war (and those weren’t just caused by considerations of the war against the western powers, there was also the idea of building an Uralbomber to strike Soviet industry in the Urals region).

    Between the Fall of France and the start of Barbarossa:

    • Massive capital investments–the largest investment boom in German history
    • U-boat production tripled
    • Aircraft production increased 40%
    • Aircraft manufacturing workforce grew 40% (effects of this not seen until 1942)
    • Munitions production was cut from 36% of expenditures to 20% (owing to large stocks–22m 10.5cm howitzer shells were in inventory in September, 1940)
    • Vehicles & weapons production increased 54%
    • Army’s steel ration cut by one-third
    • Exports increased 25%

    The basic goal of Ruestungsprogramm B was to prepare for a long war against the Anglo-Americans while still increasing the striking power of the army, which was done by doubling the number of Panzer divisions and increasing the amount of artillery guns in the infantry. This was done on the cheap by restricting the production of munitions as excess stocks had been produced in advance of the invasion of France. The freed resources were allocated to capital investments, the navy, and exports.

    The capital investments should be further explained. Gigantic investments had already begun in 1938, but after the Fall of France the largest investments ever in German history (relative terms) were made. Nothing of the sort occurred in Britain or the USSR (though the USA made gigantic investments). These investments were all made for the global war against the Anglo-Americans.

    Some of the investments made include:

    • Henschel & Sohn added 100,000 square meters of factory floor space in Kassel
    • Nibelungen tank factory constructed in St Valentin, Austria
    • Vomag in Plauen and Maschinenfabrik Niedersachsen works converted to tank production
    • IG Farben commenced construction on fuel plants to raise production from 4.3m tons to 10m by 1945
    • Work began on the Auschwitz factory complex, a 1.3bn Reichsmark investment (13bn Euros today)
    • 2.5bn Reichsmarks on other chemicals projects
    • 400m Reichsmark investment to raise Norwegian aluminum production from 46,000 tons to 200,000 tons by 1944
    • 1.5bn Reichsmark investment to increase Grossraum aluminum production to 1m tons
    • 685m Reichsmark investment to build the Flugmotorenwerk Ost in Austria with a planned output of 1,000 aero engines per month (this turned into a fiasco)
    • 170m Reichsmark investment to increase production of Daimler-Benz inverted V-12 aero engines at Genshagen (major success–actual output reached over 1,200 engines per month in 1944)
    • 5.2bn Reichsmarks into all Luftwaffe industries from 1939-1942 (explains much of the “armaments miracle”)

    In the absence of American involvement, perhaps more would’ve been allocated to current weapons production. Alternatively, Britain and the USSR would’ve faced a massive flood of German production in 1943 and later without a corresponding flood of American production.

    Figures are from Adam Tooze’s book The Wages of Destruction.

    Given how absurdly confident Hitler and his generals were of victory in June/July 1941 (they really thought the Soviet Union would collapse in a few weeks), this seems likely to me.
    They really had no idea about Soviet capabilities. I’m currently reading a German book about the Wehrmacht, and the picture that emerges of Barbarossa is one of absolute hubris (e.g. the well-known fact that only a fairly small part of the Wehrmacht was motorized, the inferiority of German tanks to some Soviet designs, only compensated in 1941 by better German tactics, use of radio etc., the divisions destined for occupation duties in the rear being grotesquely under-manned and under-equipped, and much more).

    Monday morning quarterbacking is easy.

    The situation in the fall of 1940 was that the Luftwaffe had failed to defeat Britain, the Kriegsmarine was a tiny force, and Germany was facing a long global war against the vastly superior combined resources of the United States and British Empire. At the same time it was falling into dangerous dependence on the Soviet Union.

    Unlike the Luftwaffe, the German Army had seemingly proven itself as an apparently invincible war winning weapon. Conquering Russia would solve Germany’s raw materials problem and provide it with all the resources it required to face the Anglo-American onslaught.

    While one shouldn’t excuse German hubris and poor intelligence, the fact that the Red Army had assembled more tanks and aircraft than the rest of the world combined was certainly shocking to everyone. So too was the size of the Red Army and the ability of Soviet leadership to rapidly form divisions. The Germans had expected to face 200 divisions, but by the time Barbarossa concluded they had faced something like 700 Soviet divisions.

    A lot of very advanced Soviet weapons did appear in 1940-1941 (not just the T-34 but also the ZiS-2 57mm anti-tank gun, the M1939 85mm flak cannon, the A-19 122mm field gun, the Yak-3, etc.), but fortunately relatively little of it was in service in 1941. The Il-2 also entered service that year but Great Patriotic War mythology aside it was a bad aircraft and should not have entered service.

    Also working in favor of the invading Germans was the continuing presence in the Soviet high command of very big-brained individuals like Artillery Directorate Chief Grigory Kulik, who had the inventor of the automatic grenade launcher executed and considered land mines to be a weapon of cowards. One of the reasons the T-34s encountered in 1941 were not a threat (aside from bad training, bad manufacturing quality, and bad deployment) was that Kulik deliberately sabotaged their anti-tank armament by supply an inferior gun and reducing the allocation of shells to the tanks.

    It’s true that the Wehrmacht was not motorized (and in fact progressively demotorized throughout the war), but the Red Army was not either. Obviously the lack of trucks caused enormous problems, but none the less the Germans advanced into the USSR in 1941 as fast as the Americans did into Iraq in 2003.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @Thorfinnsson


    and Germany was facing a long global war against the vastly superior combined resources of the United States and British Empire
     
    imo that exaggerates the situation. There was no immediate prospect of the US directly entering the war, a majority of the US public was against it (and it's not even clear to me Roosevelt wanted direct intervention, maybe he would have been content with lend-lease and US navy patrols in the North Atlantic). And Britain on her own could never have expelled German forces from German-occupied Europe (Anglo-supremacists who claim otherwise usually have to resort to fantasy scenarios involving atomic weapons or mass armies of enthusiastic Indians fighting in Europe), in fact couldn't even do all that much against Germany until 1943 when the bombing offensive escalated.
    tbh I have to wonder a bit what kind of ideological biases are present in Tooze's work, if I understand correctly, he comes close to claiming that Britain and the US were Hitler's main enemy, with the Soviet Union almost an afterthought in Hitler's world view (which would seem very questionable to me).

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson, @Anatoly Karlin

    , @Gerard2
    @Thorfinnsson

    ...and what stopped them from concentrating on defeating the British in North Africa by way of not conducting Barbarossa? Thus saving valuable resources and military power being sent east - particularly with the Italian forces at an early stage in North Africa proving to be not so successful.
    The Shah of Iran had come out of support for the Nazis, M-R pact - surely all this secured them a steady oil supply for the short-medium term?

    If you are saying that the Kriegsmarine were so outmatched by the British that they were going to get smashed in the Mediterranean sea ( thus making land /air combat in North Africa redundant) then surely you could argue that Wehrmacht combined could have turned the situation by spoiler tactics- engaging the British to such an extent -hurting their oil infrastructure in North Africa, hitting naval oil routes back to Britain - that some treaty over the oil states would have been reached? North Africa was the British Empire's biggest source of oil.



    Let's not forget that Britain never once entered Poland in WW2, defeating an enemy (positioned 30 km away through the Eenglish Channel) by first defeating them in North Africa, then going through Italy via the south, THEN belatedly going through northern France ( as the Soviets start liberating Europe) is practically an unheard of method of victory in war - very successful in this instance...but one in which if the Nazi's had known this as if psychic- they would probably have thought that "North Africa - Italy - then France" method creates a series of "fail-safes" in strategy for the Nazis from they would have been very confident of not losing the war

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson, @Gerard2

    , @Epigon
    @Thorfinnsson


    While one shouldn’t excuse German hubris and poor intelligence, the fact that the Red Army had assembled more tanks and aircraft than the rest of the world combined was certainly shocking to everyone.

     

    Those "total numbers" are bogus when one looks at the breakdown by type, vintage and condition in June 1941.
    https://i.imgur.com/PQKCeKt.png
    https://i.imgur.com/TcTCtCl.png
    https://i.imgur.com/2uMWQSr.png
    https://i.imgur.com/rolbqEC.png

    A lot of very advanced Soviet weapons did appear in 1940-1941 (not just the T-34 but also the ZiS-2 57mm anti-tank gun, the M1939 85mm flak cannon, the A-19 122mm field gun, the Yak-3, etc.)
     
    ZiS-2 - discontinued because German tanks similarly powerful to KV-3, KV-4 didn't materialise - instead, thousands of Pz. II, Pz. 35, Pz. 38, Pz. III and Pz. IV with 30 mm frontal armour invaded.
    ZiS-2 had very high MV, high barrel wear, and would go right through them.
    T-34-57 Tank Destroyers were discontinued for the same reason.

    The most dangerous adversary for Allied and Soviet tankers - PaKs, Panzerjaeger detachments (both towed and self-propelled) and StuGs. Tank vs. tank warfare was advised against - Rommel, Guderian and Mainstein being explicit about it. In 1941 whenever Panzers met head-on with Soviet tank brigades, they suffered badly. The key in Barbarossa was being on the strategic offensive, attacking along unsuspected axes, deep-striking with Panzers at vulnerable targets and letting the Infantry mop up the survivors. Soviet mechanized corps would be ordered to counterattack, break encirclement, react to German advances and then go right into prepared German positions. Strategic offensive+high strategic mobility = Tactical defensive = Victory. Arracourt was the exact same thing, Americans reached same conclusions post-war.

    T-34 was actually supposed to be a pre-production/early version to learn the lessons and educate workshops. According to original planning, it was supposed to be replaced by T-34M starting with July 1941, and completely gone from production by November 1941. The L-11 armament you quote had no problems with early German AFVs - they were that thin-skinned.

    Yak-3 was introduced in 1944. Yak-1 was not even the standard fighter in 1941, let alone there being enough frontline pilots traind to use them - most were accustomed to I-153 biplane and I-16 monoplane.


    The Il-2 also entered service that year but Great Patriotic War mythology aside it was a bad aircraft and should not have entered service.
     
    Better CS than Ju-87. All CS aircraft are hopeless in conditions of hostile air superiority - Stuka suffered horribly both in 1940 over Low Countries and France, and in Channel and over Britain.

    One of the reasons the T-34s encountered in 1941 were not a threat (aside from bad training, bad manufacturing quality, and bad deployment) was that Kulik deliberately sabotaged their anti-tank armament by supply an inferior gun and reducing the allocation of shells to the tanks.
     

    Oh, but it was a threat. And a hell of a threat. You see, by far the most numerous AT weapons in the invading army were 3.7 cm PaK and KwK. They were useless against T-34 from all angles and at all combat ranges. The 5cm L/42 of tanks was inadequate as well, while L/60 needed either APCR or lucky side shot.
    More T-34 and KV-1 were destroyed by their own crews and abandoned than were lost in direct combat in 1941 - this being the key of the advantage the side which is on the strategic offensive enjoys - it gets the spoils of battlefield. This will become obvious in 1943, 1944 when German Heavy tank battalions suffer 30-40 tank losses in a single day - their repair shops got overran - and Germans didn't count a tank as a loss until it disintegrated or was captured by enemy.
    So a horse-drawn, dominantly foot infantry army with puny 3000-something Panzers, PzJg, StPz and StuG, with light Panzer divisions with a single tank battalion (your vaunted doubling of number of Panzer divisions in 1940-1941 was achieved by halving the tank component per Pz. division) drastically outperformed the Big Cat, Wunderwaffe army of 1943-1945.

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson

    , @Grahamsno(G64)
    @Thorfinnsson


    Artillery Directorate Chief Grigory Kulik,
     
    Stalin had Kulik's wife kidnapped and shot, he also had his chief of staff's wife shot and Molotov's wife narrowly escaped being shot and many other high ranking officials wives were shot. None of these guys dared protest Stalin was the boss from hell probably the worst boss in history he used to regularly humiliate Kruschev by emptying his pipe on his bald head!
  24. @Thorfinnsson
    PC

    You might not need to upgrade for a very long time in light of the end of Moore's Law.

    The Haswell generation (4th) of Intel Core processors is nearly as powerful as the current 8th generation.

    The disadvantages in your setup compared to the latest technology are in the data buses:

    • DDR3 instead of DDR4
    • No NVMe
    • No Thunderbolt

    DDR4 is a minor improvement and not noticeable for most users.

    NVMe is a substantial improvement, but a SATA3 SSD is still speedy enough for most users. If desperate to improve you can use a PCI-E card SSD or configure a SATA RAID 0 array.

    Thunderbolt is irrelevant for your needs.

    I would not be surprised if this system is satisfactory for your needs a decade from now.

    It appears that a 2.5" SSD is mounted on top of the cage containing an obsolete Western Digital spinning platter hard drive. If that's not an SSD, I would advise upgrading to a SSD prior to upgrading RAM. Fortunately flash memory prices are in the tank right now so SSD prices are dirt cheap.

    No opinion on the GPU as I don't game.

    Replies: @Dmitry, @Anatoly Karlin

    (4th) of Intel Core processors is nearly as powerful as the current 8th generation.

    As diminishing returns, of the software, GPU, etc. (If he doesn’t upgrade his GPU too much).

    In terms of raw performance, it would be destroyed by the latest generations.

    I think it will be fine for 60 fps gaming nonetheless, if he does not use other programs, at the same time….

    But, maybe with the RTX 2060 , it will be underpowered though and just bottleneck a new GPU?

    With this processor, I guess it would be more suitable to match with something like a 1070? I’m no expert, but I would assume 1070 would be more suitable to match it with?

  25. @LondonBob
    @Thorfinnsson

    You ignore the high likelihood of Britain agreeing to Hitler's very generous peace offers without the assurance of the US entering the war.

    Anyway the idea Britain was so influential on US politics is just not grounded in reality, wasn't in WWI, even less so in regard to WWII. In both cases the Jewish influence was decisive, and many other lobbies were active too. Akin to those today ranting about Russians but not Israelis.

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson, @utu

    A very good point.

    If FDR had been defeated, Churchill might well have been replaced leading to a peace agreement with the Germans.

    Jews were obviously pushing America towards war, but Unz’s essay about British influence is interesting and eye-opening:

    https://www.unz.com/runz/american-pravda-alexander-cockburn-and-the-british-spies/

    It’s also not just a matter of alien influence. Much of America’s WASP establishment, still in control at that time, favored intervention. Foreign Policy magazine helpfully has its archives online, and you can read all sorts of dreck from 1940 about the American need to enter the war or at least support Britain.

    Gallup opinion polling in 1939 also asked Americans if they should help their British “blood brothers” which I found interesting.

    American public opinion was largely opposed to intervention, but tellingly almost no one was in favor of joining the Axis whereas a substantial minority favored aiding or joining the Allies. This despite the fact that obviously America stood to gain from dismembering the British Empire and once and for all eliminating the hideous Canuckist Entity from the map.

    • Replies: @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan
    @Thorfinnsson


    Gallup opinion polling in 1939 also asked Americans if they should help their British “blood brothers” which I found interesting.

     

    You're obviously more knowledgeable than I on statistics to do with America, Germany, and Britain in that period of history. With that said, my perception is that Americans of generic "British ancestry" (I mean including people like the Scotch-Irish, who once produced the thoroughly anti-English Andrew Jackson) became more fond of Great Britain as time wore on.

    My ancestry is primarily 18th and 19th century German immigrant stock, so I vaguely perceive a difference between myself and British heritage Americans. Those Americans sure as heck don't seem to have been terribly philo-English in the middle of the 19th century, although (according to Civil War historian William Freehling) there were pockets that favored England, in places like South Carolina. But South Carolina was always something of an anomaly, even in the South. And in general, this concept of "blood brotherhood" seems like a relatively recent conception. And considering that we had a war scare with Britain as late as the 1890s, I wonder if it was all but within the last 20 years or so before World War 1.

    I also wonder if this "blood brotherhood" idea was very much secondary to the main reason Americans accepted the Second World War, which was the "back door" with Japan. The First World War's 1917 entrance seems more likely to have been inspired by some supposed tie of kinship.

    I'm hesitant to make much heavy judgment, though. What do you think?

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson

  26. German_reader says:
    @Thorfinnsson
    @German_reader



    shifted to what? Submarines would have been necessary anyway for the war against Britain, and the Luftwaffe remained a force used mostly for tactical support of ground troops, with all attempts at creating aircraft capable of strategic bombing unsuccesful and only pursued later in the war (and those weren’t just caused by considerations of the war against the western powers, there was also the idea of building an Uralbomber to strike Soviet industry in the Urals region).
     
    Between the Fall of France and the start of Barbarossa:

    • Massive capital investments--the largest investment boom in German history
    • U-boat production tripled
    • Aircraft production increased 40%
    • Aircraft manufacturing workforce grew 40% (effects of this not seen until 1942)
    • Munitions production was cut from 36% of expenditures to 20% (owing to large stocks--22m 10.5cm howitzer shells were in inventory in September, 1940)
    • Vehicles & weapons production increased 54%
    • Army's steel ration cut by one-third
    • Exports increased 25%

    The basic goal of Ruestungsprogramm B was to prepare for a long war against the Anglo-Americans while still increasing the striking power of the army, which was done by doubling the number of Panzer divisions and increasing the amount of artillery guns in the infantry. This was done on the cheap by restricting the production of munitions as excess stocks had been produced in advance of the invasion of France. The freed resources were allocated to capital investments, the navy, and exports.

    The capital investments should be further explained. Gigantic investments had already begun in 1938, but after the Fall of France the largest investments ever in German history (relative terms) were made. Nothing of the sort occurred in Britain or the USSR (though the USA made gigantic investments). These investments were all made for the global war against the Anglo-Americans.

    Some of the investments made include:

    • Henschel & Sohn added 100,000 square meters of factory floor space in Kassel
    • Nibelungen tank factory constructed in St Valentin, Austria
    • Vomag in Plauen and Maschinenfabrik Niedersachsen works converted to tank production
    • IG Farben commenced construction on fuel plants to raise production from 4.3m tons to 10m by 1945
    • Work began on the Auschwitz factory complex, a 1.3bn Reichsmark investment (13bn Euros today)
    • 2.5bn Reichsmarks on other chemicals projects
    • 400m Reichsmark investment to raise Norwegian aluminum production from 46,000 tons to 200,000 tons by 1944
    • 1.5bn Reichsmark investment to increase Grossraum aluminum production to 1m tons
    • 685m Reichsmark investment to build the Flugmotorenwerk Ost in Austria with a planned output of 1,000 aero engines per month (this turned into a fiasco)
    • 170m Reichsmark investment to increase production of Daimler-Benz inverted V-12 aero engines at Genshagen (major success--actual output reached over 1,200 engines per month in 1944)
    • 5.2bn Reichsmarks into all Luftwaffe industries from 1939-1942 (explains much of the "armaments miracle")

    In the absence of American involvement, perhaps more would've been allocated to current weapons production. Alternatively, Britain and the USSR would've faced a massive flood of German production in 1943 and later without a corresponding flood of American production.

    Figures are from Adam Tooze's book The Wages of Destruction.


    Given how absurdly confident Hitler and his generals were of victory in June/July 1941 (they really thought the Soviet Union would collapse in a few weeks), this seems likely to me.
    They really had no idea about Soviet capabilities. I’m currently reading a German book about the Wehrmacht, and the picture that emerges of Barbarossa is one of absolute hubris (e.g. the well-known fact that only a fairly small part of the Wehrmacht was motorized, the inferiority of German tanks to some Soviet designs, only compensated in 1941 by better German tactics, use of radio etc., the divisions destined for occupation duties in the rear being grotesquely under-manned and under-equipped, and much more).
     
    Monday morning quarterbacking is easy.

    The situation in the fall of 1940 was that the Luftwaffe had failed to defeat Britain, the Kriegsmarine was a tiny force, and Germany was facing a long global war against the vastly superior combined resources of the United States and British Empire. At the same time it was falling into dangerous dependence on the Soviet Union.

    Unlike the Luftwaffe, the German Army had seemingly proven itself as an apparently invincible war winning weapon. Conquering Russia would solve Germany's raw materials problem and provide it with all the resources it required to face the Anglo-American onslaught.

    While one shouldn't excuse German hubris and poor intelligence, the fact that the Red Army had assembled more tanks and aircraft than the rest of the world combined was certainly shocking to everyone. So too was the size of the Red Army and the ability of Soviet leadership to rapidly form divisions. The Germans had expected to face 200 divisions, but by the time Barbarossa concluded they had faced something like 700 Soviet divisions.

    A lot of very advanced Soviet weapons did appear in 1940-1941 (not just the T-34 but also the ZiS-2 57mm anti-tank gun, the M1939 85mm flak cannon, the A-19 122mm field gun, the Yak-3, etc.), but fortunately relatively little of it was in service in 1941. The Il-2 also entered service that year but Great Patriotic War mythology aside it was a bad aircraft and should not have entered service.

    Also working in favor of the invading Germans was the continuing presence in the Soviet high command of very big-brained individuals like Artillery Directorate Chief Grigory Kulik, who had the inventor of the automatic grenade launcher executed and considered land mines to be a weapon of cowards. One of the reasons the T-34s encountered in 1941 were not a threat (aside from bad training, bad manufacturing quality, and bad deployment) was that Kulik deliberately sabotaged their anti-tank armament by supply an inferior gun and reducing the allocation of shells to the tanks.

    It's true that the Wehrmacht was not motorized (and in fact progressively demotorized throughout the war), but the Red Army was not either. Obviously the lack of trucks caused enormous problems, but none the less the Germans advanced into the USSR in 1941 as fast as the Americans did into Iraq in 2003.

    Replies: @German_reader, @Gerard2, @Epigon, @Grahamsno(G64)

    and Germany was facing a long global war against the vastly superior combined resources of the United States and British Empire

    imo that exaggerates the situation. There was no immediate prospect of the US directly entering the war, a majority of the US public was against it (and it’s not even clear to me Roosevelt wanted direct intervention, maybe he would have been content with lend-lease and US navy patrols in the North Atlantic). And Britain on her own could never have expelled German forces from German-occupied Europe (Anglo-supremacists who claim otherwise usually have to resort to fantasy scenarios involving atomic weapons or mass armies of enthusiastic Indians fighting in Europe), in fact couldn’t even do all that much against Germany until 1943 when the bombing offensive escalated.
    tbh I have to wonder a bit what kind of ideological biases are present in Tooze’s work, if I understand correctly, he comes close to claiming that Britain and the US were Hitler’s main enemy, with the Soviet Union almost an afterthought in Hitler’s world view (which would seem very questionable to me).

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    @German_reader

    Roosevelt made the announcement in May, 1940 that the USA intended to construct 50,000 aircraft per year and supply them to Britain.

    US rearmament also began in the same year. The Two-Ocean Navy Act was passed into law on July 19, 1940. The act authorized the procurement of:



    • 18 aircraft carriers
    • 2 Iowa-class battleships
    • 5 Montana-class battleships
    • 6 Alaska-class cruisers
    • 27 cruisers
    • 115 destroyers
    • 43 submarines
    • 15,000 aircraft
    • The conversion of 100,000 tons of auxiliary ships
    • $50 million for patrol, escort and other vessels
    • $150 million for essential equipment and facilities
    • $65 million for the manufacture of ordnance material or munitions
    • $35 million for the expansion of facilities

     

    Also in 1940 (actually in December, 1939) the Army Air Corps issued the formal specification that would lead to the B-29.

    Britain's war plans since 1936 always focused on strategic bombing. Churchill's plans in turn always involved leveraging American production. America did not have to be directly at war with Germany in order for its industry to provide a lethal threat to Germany.

    As for Tooze's ideological biases, he states in another book of his (Crashed) that he is a conventional left-liberal whose loyalties are divided between Britain, Germany, and the "island of Manhattan" (by which he means finance, not NYC).

    Tooze does not make the claim that the USSR was an afterthought in Hitler's worldview and acknowledges Hitler's long-range plans of annexing the USSR for Lebensraum. In fact, he does a good job of explaining the economic rationale for this thinking by explaining the miserable condition of the German peasantry in the period.

    He does make the claim that since 1938 Hitler believed he was facing a very powerful Western coalition. Operation Barbarossa is presented by Tooze as being part of an economic strategy to acquire the resources needed to face the Anglo-American colossus. In this it can seem like an afterthought even though the acquisition of territory in the east and the helotization, Germanization, and/or elimination of the Slavs had long been central to Hitler's thinking.

    There were also other reasons for Barbarossa of course not heavily addressed by Tooze. The Soviet threat to Romanian oil for instance was cited by Hitler himself in his recorded conversation with Mannerheim, and Molotov's demands in October, 1940 were outrageous.

    Replies: @German_reader

    , @Anatoly Karlin
    @German_reader


    ... with the Soviet Union almost an afterthought in Hitler’s world view (which would seem very questionable to me).
     
    He is actually highly respectful of Soviet industrial and organizational accomplishments.

    I might try to write a review in the next couple of months. Thankfully Thorfinnsson's poasts have been a good refresher.
  27. @German_reader
    @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan


    Ron Unz gave us a good starting point from where we can wander into asking what might have been if a bunch of Limey spies and Roosevelt hadn’t attacked our formerly peaceful country
     
    Nazi Germany could have become potentially quite dangerous to the US if it had successfully conquered Eurasia. It did have fairly advanced technology by the standards of the time after all, especially in rocket development. I guess it comes down to the question whether Hitler's ambitions were limited to Europe or global, at least in the long term.
    Another crucial question of course is whether Germany could ever have decisively defeated the Soviet Union and occupied all of European Russia. I doubt it, Operation Barbarossa was total hubris and the German plans had failed even in their modified form by late 1942/early 1943, and that was before America decisively entered the war in North Africa and Europe, and iirc also before most of the Western lend-lease shipments to the Soviet Union. But I suppose there might have been some sort of extended stalemate.
    But in any case, Roosevelt's actions turned the US into the dominant world power, at the cost of the lowest casualties of all combatant powers. So the criticism of him by US paleoconservatives always seems rather exaggerated to me.

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson, @Hyperborean, @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan, @Konstantin

    Operation Barbarossa was total hubris

    Why that name though? I would have chosen to call it something more fortuitous like Operation Arminius.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @Hyperborean

    The name is indeed odd, especially so since the Nazi view of the German middle ages wasn't positive; iirc the Italian policy of emperors like Barbarossa was seen as a pointless waste of German blood and resources, preventing the creation of a strong central state in Germany and distracting from Germany's true mission of colonization in Eastern Europe in the fight against the Slavs.
    As far as I know, there's no real explanation for why that name was chosen, maybe it was kind of random and didn't have any deeper significance.

    Replies: @Hyperborean, @neutral

    , @neutral
    @Hyperborean

    They would have used his German name Herman, but it would probably not have been wise to use the name of a man that halted the Roman Empires expansion and ultimately that led it to its doom, the Italian allies would not have been too please with the connotations.

  28. @German_reader
    @Thorfinnsson


    and Germany was facing a long global war against the vastly superior combined resources of the United States and British Empire
     
    imo that exaggerates the situation. There was no immediate prospect of the US directly entering the war, a majority of the US public was against it (and it's not even clear to me Roosevelt wanted direct intervention, maybe he would have been content with lend-lease and US navy patrols in the North Atlantic). And Britain on her own could never have expelled German forces from German-occupied Europe (Anglo-supremacists who claim otherwise usually have to resort to fantasy scenarios involving atomic weapons or mass armies of enthusiastic Indians fighting in Europe), in fact couldn't even do all that much against Germany until 1943 when the bombing offensive escalated.
    tbh I have to wonder a bit what kind of ideological biases are present in Tooze's work, if I understand correctly, he comes close to claiming that Britain and the US were Hitler's main enemy, with the Soviet Union almost an afterthought in Hitler's world view (which would seem very questionable to me).

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson, @Anatoly Karlin

    Roosevelt made the announcement in May, 1940 that the USA intended to construct 50,000 aircraft per year and supply them to Britain.

    US rearmament also began in the same year. The Two-Ocean Navy Act was passed into law on July 19, 1940. The act authorized the procurement of:

    • 18 aircraft carriers
    • 2 Iowa-class battleships
    • 5 Montana-class battleships
    • 6 Alaska-class cruisers
    • 27 cruisers
    • 115 destroyers
    • 43 submarines
    • 15,000 aircraft
    • The conversion of 100,000 tons of auxiliary ships
    • $50 million for patrol, escort and other vessels
    • $150 million for essential equipment and facilities
    • $65 million for the manufacture of ordnance material or munitions
    • $35 million for the expansion of facilities

    Also in 1940 (actually in December, 1939) the Army Air Corps issued the formal specification that would lead to the B-29.

    Britain’s war plans since 1936 always focused on strategic bombing. Churchill’s plans in turn always involved leveraging American production. America did not have to be directly at war with Germany in order for its industry to provide a lethal threat to Germany.

    As for Tooze’s ideological biases, he states in another book of his (Crashed) that he is a conventional left-liberal whose loyalties are divided between Britain, Germany, and the “island of Manhattan” (by which he means finance, not NYC).

    Tooze does not make the claim that the USSR was an afterthought in Hitler’s worldview and acknowledges Hitler’s long-range plans of annexing the USSR for Lebensraum. In fact, he does a good job of explaining the economic rationale for this thinking by explaining the miserable condition of the German peasantry in the period.

    He does make the claim that since 1938 Hitler believed he was facing a very powerful Western coalition. Operation Barbarossa is presented by Tooze as being part of an economic strategy to acquire the resources needed to face the Anglo-American colossus. In this it can seem like an afterthought even though the acquisition of territory in the east and the helotization, Germanization, and/or elimination of the Slavs had long been central to Hitler’s thinking.

    There were also other reasons for Barbarossa of course not heavily addressed by Tooze. The Soviet threat to Romanian oil for instance was cited by Hitler himself in his recorded conversation with Mannerheim, and Molotov’s demands in October, 1940 were outrageous.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @Thorfinnsson


    1940 that the USA intended to construct 50,000 aircraft per year and supply them to Britain.
     
    Aircraft are pointless though without aircrew to operate them.
    I haven't personally read Tooze's book (and don't intend to in the near future), so I can't comment in any more detail. Thanks for the interesting discussion.

    Replies: @LondonBob

  29. German_reader says:
    @Hyperborean
    @German_reader


    Operation Barbarossa was total hubris
     
    Why that name though? I would have chosen to call it something more fortuitous like Operation Arminius.

    Replies: @German_reader, @neutral

    The name is indeed odd, especially so since the Nazi view of the German middle ages wasn’t positive; iirc the Italian policy of emperors like Barbarossa was seen as a pointless waste of German blood and resources, preventing the creation of a strong central state in Germany and distracting from Germany’s true mission of colonization in Eastern Europe in the fight against the Slavs.
    As far as I know, there’s no real explanation for why that name was chosen, maybe it was kind of random and didn’t have any deeper significance.

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
    @German_reader


    iirc the Italian policy of emperors like Barbarossa was seen as a pointless waste of German blood and resources, preventing the creation of a strong central state in Germany and distracting from Germany’s true mission of colonization in Eastern Europe in the fight against the Slavs.
     
    Yes, I suppose that too. I was thinking more of his ignominious end during the Third Crusade.

    Replies: @German_reader

    , @neutral
    @German_reader

    Barbarossa was to join the crusade. Operation Barbarossa was a crusade against the jew, as the USSR was a jewish construct, the name no doubt came from this line of thought.

  30. German_reader says:
    @Thorfinnsson
    @German_reader

    Roosevelt made the announcement in May, 1940 that the USA intended to construct 50,000 aircraft per year and supply them to Britain.

    US rearmament also began in the same year. The Two-Ocean Navy Act was passed into law on July 19, 1940. The act authorized the procurement of:



    • 18 aircraft carriers
    • 2 Iowa-class battleships
    • 5 Montana-class battleships
    • 6 Alaska-class cruisers
    • 27 cruisers
    • 115 destroyers
    • 43 submarines
    • 15,000 aircraft
    • The conversion of 100,000 tons of auxiliary ships
    • $50 million for patrol, escort and other vessels
    • $150 million for essential equipment and facilities
    • $65 million for the manufacture of ordnance material or munitions
    • $35 million for the expansion of facilities

     

    Also in 1940 (actually in December, 1939) the Army Air Corps issued the formal specification that would lead to the B-29.

    Britain's war plans since 1936 always focused on strategic bombing. Churchill's plans in turn always involved leveraging American production. America did not have to be directly at war with Germany in order for its industry to provide a lethal threat to Germany.

    As for Tooze's ideological biases, he states in another book of his (Crashed) that he is a conventional left-liberal whose loyalties are divided between Britain, Germany, and the "island of Manhattan" (by which he means finance, not NYC).

    Tooze does not make the claim that the USSR was an afterthought in Hitler's worldview and acknowledges Hitler's long-range plans of annexing the USSR for Lebensraum. In fact, he does a good job of explaining the economic rationale for this thinking by explaining the miserable condition of the German peasantry in the period.

    He does make the claim that since 1938 Hitler believed he was facing a very powerful Western coalition. Operation Barbarossa is presented by Tooze as being part of an economic strategy to acquire the resources needed to face the Anglo-American colossus. In this it can seem like an afterthought even though the acquisition of territory in the east and the helotization, Germanization, and/or elimination of the Slavs had long been central to Hitler's thinking.

    There were also other reasons for Barbarossa of course not heavily addressed by Tooze. The Soviet threat to Romanian oil for instance was cited by Hitler himself in his recorded conversation with Mannerheim, and Molotov's demands in October, 1940 were outrageous.

    Replies: @German_reader

    1940 that the USA intended to construct 50,000 aircraft per year and supply them to Britain.

    Aircraft are pointless though without aircrew to operate them.
    I haven’t personally read Tooze’s book (and don’t intend to in the near future), so I can’t comment in any more detail. Thanks for the interesting discussion.

    • Replies: @LondonBob
    @German_reader

    What evidence do you have FDR wasn't completely committed to fighting?

  31. https://vz.ru/news/2019/3/20/969350.html

    LOL…………just when you thought this nutjob country couldn’t get more farcical. Easily deserving of a place on the Open Thread

    As for the thing about RT……. I am fairly sure it is standard practise amount all International News channels across the world, particularly American. Even so that story probably isn’t even true – they have plenty of western , foreign journalists – not much chance they could stop them, or sue them in a western court ( or even try)…and anyway the critical worker could just easily leak that to any of the numerous liberast friends that I am pretty sure align with the minds of most RT journalists anyway.

  32. @German_reader
    @Hyperborean

    The name is indeed odd, especially so since the Nazi view of the German middle ages wasn't positive; iirc the Italian policy of emperors like Barbarossa was seen as a pointless waste of German blood and resources, preventing the creation of a strong central state in Germany and distracting from Germany's true mission of colonization in Eastern Europe in the fight against the Slavs.
    As far as I know, there's no real explanation for why that name was chosen, maybe it was kind of random and didn't have any deeper significance.

    Replies: @Hyperborean, @neutral

    iirc the Italian policy of emperors like Barbarossa was seen as a pointless waste of German blood and resources, preventing the creation of a strong central state in Germany and distracting from Germany’s true mission of colonization in Eastern Europe in the fight against the Slavs.

    Yes, I suppose that too. I was thinking more of his ignominious end during the Third Crusade.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @Hyperborean


    I was thinking more of his ignominious end during the Third Crusade.
     
    He's not really dead and will return one day:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyffh%C3%A4user#Kyffh%C3%A4user_legend

    Replies: @Hyperborean

  33. @Hyperborean
    @German_reader


    iirc the Italian policy of emperors like Barbarossa was seen as a pointless waste of German blood and resources, preventing the creation of a strong central state in Germany and distracting from Germany’s true mission of colonization in Eastern Europe in the fight against the Slavs.
     
    Yes, I suppose that too. I was thinking more of his ignominious end during the Third Crusade.

    Replies: @German_reader

    I was thinking more of his ignominious end during the Third Crusade.

    He’s not really dead and will return one day:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyffh%C3%A4user#Kyffh%C3%A4user_legend

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
    @German_reader


    He’s not really dead and will return one day:
     
    Interesting, I hadn't heard of Kyffhäuser before.
  34. especially in light of the Christchurch shooter’s trips to Pakistan and N Korea. I’d like to share some thoughts on why I don’t think these places radicalised him

    I don’t know, visiting Pakistan is as a good education about what third world populations achieve as a society.

  35. @German_reader
    @Hyperborean

    The name is indeed odd, especially so since the Nazi view of the German middle ages wasn't positive; iirc the Italian policy of emperors like Barbarossa was seen as a pointless waste of German blood and resources, preventing the creation of a strong central state in Germany and distracting from Germany's true mission of colonization in Eastern Europe in the fight against the Slavs.
    As far as I know, there's no real explanation for why that name was chosen, maybe it was kind of random and didn't have any deeper significance.

    Replies: @Hyperborean, @neutral

    Barbarossa was to join the crusade. Operation Barbarossa was a crusade against the jew, as the USSR was a jewish construct, the name no doubt came from this line of thought.

  36. @German_reader
    @Hyperborean


    I was thinking more of his ignominious end during the Third Crusade.
     
    He's not really dead and will return one day:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyffh%C3%A4user#Kyffh%C3%A4user_legend

    Replies: @Hyperborean

    He’s not really dead and will return one day:

    Interesting, I hadn’t heard of Kyffhäuser before.

  37. @Hyperborean
    @German_reader


    Operation Barbarossa was total hubris
     
    Why that name though? I would have chosen to call it something more fortuitous like Operation Arminius.

    Replies: @German_reader, @neutral

    They would have used his German name Herman, but it would probably not have been wise to use the name of a man that halted the Roman Empires expansion and ultimately that led it to its doom, the Italian allies would not have been too please with the connotations.

  38. Regarding the visual arts in Russia:

    I don’t really like the modern and geometric style, but at least this one is easily comprehensible.

    But what are these supposed to represent? I honestly have no clue. If there is no purpose then what is the point?

    I think the author, a woman, is trying to make some sort of feminist statement by contrasting these pictures, but honestly, seeing the grim, stern proletarian faces next to joyous, relaxed bourgeois women, it has the opposite effect on me.

    • Replies: @WHAT
    @Hyperborean

    Well, the first one is a sensible tactical advice on wedge formations, I kid you not.

    , @Mr. Hack
    @Hyperborean

    The Leokrem add works for me - more Vitamin D please. :-)

  39. @Thorfinnsson
    PC

    You might not need to upgrade for a very long time in light of the end of Moore's Law.

    The Haswell generation (4th) of Intel Core processors is nearly as powerful as the current 8th generation.

    The disadvantages in your setup compared to the latest technology are in the data buses:

    • DDR3 instead of DDR4
    • No NVMe
    • No Thunderbolt

    DDR4 is a minor improvement and not noticeable for most users.

    NVMe is a substantial improvement, but a SATA3 SSD is still speedy enough for most users. If desperate to improve you can use a PCI-E card SSD or configure a SATA RAID 0 array.

    Thunderbolt is irrelevant for your needs.

    I would not be surprised if this system is satisfactory for your needs a decade from now.

    It appears that a 2.5" SSD is mounted on top of the cage containing an obsolete Western Digital spinning platter hard drive. If that's not an SSD, I would advise upgrading to a SSD prior to upgrading RAM. Fortunately flash memory prices are in the tank right now so SSD prices are dirt cheap.

    No opinion on the GPU as I don't game.

    Replies: @Dmitry, @Anatoly Karlin

    Correct, that’s (my own) SSD.

    @ Dmitry,

    With this processor, I guess it would be more suitable to match with something like a 1070? I’m no expert, but I would assume 1070 would be more suitable to match it with?

    1070 has very similar performance to 1660-Ti but is almost three years old and just as expensive. No real point to it.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Sure if it's the same or similar price,I guess there is no danger to buy newer GPU.

    But nonetheless to say, with a 6 years old mid-range CPU, probably at best it will not attain performance difference of the new GPU over a few years old 1070, and at worse the CPU will bottleneck the new card and stutter (but then you could just set a fps limit at 60, so it will still be ok).

    And I guess you will also try to run the processor at 4.5 or whatever is not too hot for it? and then see how it works with the new GPU. Anyway it will be interesting to read your reports on this.

    , @donnyess
    @Anatoly Karlin

    The 1660 ti seems to be the one you want given the requirements. It's still a pretty expensive board at 280 bucks. The 1660 is about 220 bucks. Maybe monitor the sales figures and go with the best seller...again probably the 1660 ti. If none of these more expensive cards get a large user base...maybe try the Asus rx-570 4gb at 150 bucks or the MSI rx-570 mk2 8gb at 190 bucks....see how it works and wait until you upgrade your system.

  40. @LondonBob
    @Thorfinnsson

    You ignore the high likelihood of Britain agreeing to Hitler's very generous peace offers without the assurance of the US entering the war.

    Anyway the idea Britain was so influential on US politics is just not grounded in reality, wasn't in WWI, even less so in regard to WWII. In both cases the Jewish influence was decisive, and many other lobbies were active too. Akin to those today ranting about Russians but not Israelis.

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson, @utu

    From 21 November 1938 report by Ambassador Potocki on conversation with Ambassador Bullitt

    As the Soviet Union’s potential strength is not yet known, it might happen that Germany would have moved too far away from its base, and would be condemned to wage a long and weakening war. Only then would the democratic countries attack Germany, Bullitt declared, and force her to capitulate.

    In reply to my question whether the United States would take part in such a war, he said, ‘Undoubtedly yes, but only after Great Britain and France had let loose first!’

    FDR knew what he wanted.

    Hoover would document his conversations with the various people he met with. An example is provided of Hoover’s meeting with Kennedy on May 15, 1945. Kennedy indicated he had over 900 dispatches which he could not print without consent of the U.S. Government. He hoped one day to receive such permission as it was Kennedy’s intention to write a book that would:

    …put an entirely different color on the process of how America got into the war and would prove the betrayal of the American people by Franklin D, Roosevelt.

    …Roosevelt and Bullitt were the major factors in the British making their guarantees to Poland and becoming involved in the war. Kennedy said that Bullitt, under instructions from Roosevelt, was constantly urging the Poles not to make terms with the Germans and that he Kennedy, under instructions from Roosevelt, was constantly urging the British to make guarantees to the Poles.

    He said that after Chamberlain had given these guarantees, Chamberlain told him (Kennedy) that he hoped the Americans and the Jews would now be satisfied but that he (Chamberlain) felt that he had signed the doom of civilization.

    Kennedy said that if it had not been for Roosevelt the British would not have made this most gigantic blunder in history.

    Kennedy told me that he thought Roosevelt was in communication with Churchill, who was the leader of the opposition to Chamberlain, before Chamberlain was thrown out of office….

    James Forrestal, Under Secretary of the Navy, documented in his diaries a substantially similar conversation with Kennedy.

    Hoover’s Secret History of the Second World War … edited by George H. Nash
    https://books.google.com/books?id=ugFyjRLHPzcC&pg=PT761&lpg=PT761&dq=Ambassador+Potocki+on+conversation+with+Ambassador+Bullitt&source=bl&ots=D7zhs3vpcP&sig=ACfU3U1Hmz5emuNqS-66TFyApHESMkKS1Q&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjI0ar7x5ThAhVCiOAKHeVpDM4Q6AEwBnoECAgQAQ#v=onepage&q=Ambassador%20Potocki%20on%20conversation%20with%20Ambassador%20Bullitt&f=false

  41. The result of being the puppet of a foreign master:

    The new law states that any person who enters the country legally — and resides in it for a year legally — can get the Iraqi passport.

    […]

    Raja’s Yousef explained the fear from the new law saying: “In the nearest religious visit, if 2 million Iranian came into Iraq, and a million do not return back to Iran, after one year they will be give the Iraqi passport and a social welfare of 500,000 dinars i.e. $400 and they will send to their families back home. This is all is taken from the Iraqi orphans money.”

    […]

    Another Iraqi wrote: “The new nationalisation law aims to change the demographics in Iraq, end the presence of the Iraqi people as a genuine people and replace it with races and ethnicities from Iran, Afghanistan, India and others.”

    […]

    “Kurds are part of this society; they were victims of the sectarian and racist practices of the old regime. At the time of Saddam, they were subjected to the most heinous genocides and forced displacements, as hundreds of thousands of them were dumped in the open, on the Iranian border, and all their possessions were confiscated,” Abu Hussein added “Justice must be done and their rights returned to them”

    https://www.amren.com/news/2019/03/new-iraqi-citizenship-law-stirs-controversy/

    • Replies: @songbird
    @Hyperborean

    A lot of the "real" Arabs seem to have somewhat tenuous demographics. Not exactly collapsing TFR, but just copious amounts of foreign workers, many of them subcon or Indonesian Muslims who can claim being brothers in Islam. Then there are all the "natives" with heavy African ancestry from Zanj days, (in Iraq, 500,000) as well as those recently arrived Africans who are desperate even to cross into Yemen.

    Their political system is mainly constructed from big men writing checks. Perhaps, tribal politics makes it unlikely that they will write those big checks to Africans and Pakis. They don't seem to suffer from one-worldism, as the foreign laborers are generally treated like helots and often sex-segregated.

    BTW, Trump is calling for the Golan Heights to be recognized as part of Israel. No wonder he is on Israeli campaign posters! Is there any real difference between him and Bibi?

    Replies: @Dmitry, @Hyperborean

  42. @Thorfinnsson
    @German_reader



    shifted to what? Submarines would have been necessary anyway for the war against Britain, and the Luftwaffe remained a force used mostly for tactical support of ground troops, with all attempts at creating aircraft capable of strategic bombing unsuccesful and only pursued later in the war (and those weren’t just caused by considerations of the war against the western powers, there was also the idea of building an Uralbomber to strike Soviet industry in the Urals region).
     
    Between the Fall of France and the start of Barbarossa:

    • Massive capital investments--the largest investment boom in German history
    • U-boat production tripled
    • Aircraft production increased 40%
    • Aircraft manufacturing workforce grew 40% (effects of this not seen until 1942)
    • Munitions production was cut from 36% of expenditures to 20% (owing to large stocks--22m 10.5cm howitzer shells were in inventory in September, 1940)
    • Vehicles & weapons production increased 54%
    • Army's steel ration cut by one-third
    • Exports increased 25%

    The basic goal of Ruestungsprogramm B was to prepare for a long war against the Anglo-Americans while still increasing the striking power of the army, which was done by doubling the number of Panzer divisions and increasing the amount of artillery guns in the infantry. This was done on the cheap by restricting the production of munitions as excess stocks had been produced in advance of the invasion of France. The freed resources were allocated to capital investments, the navy, and exports.

    The capital investments should be further explained. Gigantic investments had already begun in 1938, but after the Fall of France the largest investments ever in German history (relative terms) were made. Nothing of the sort occurred in Britain or the USSR (though the USA made gigantic investments). These investments were all made for the global war against the Anglo-Americans.

    Some of the investments made include:

    • Henschel & Sohn added 100,000 square meters of factory floor space in Kassel
    • Nibelungen tank factory constructed in St Valentin, Austria
    • Vomag in Plauen and Maschinenfabrik Niedersachsen works converted to tank production
    • IG Farben commenced construction on fuel plants to raise production from 4.3m tons to 10m by 1945
    • Work began on the Auschwitz factory complex, a 1.3bn Reichsmark investment (13bn Euros today)
    • 2.5bn Reichsmarks on other chemicals projects
    • 400m Reichsmark investment to raise Norwegian aluminum production from 46,000 tons to 200,000 tons by 1944
    • 1.5bn Reichsmark investment to increase Grossraum aluminum production to 1m tons
    • 685m Reichsmark investment to build the Flugmotorenwerk Ost in Austria with a planned output of 1,000 aero engines per month (this turned into a fiasco)
    • 170m Reichsmark investment to increase production of Daimler-Benz inverted V-12 aero engines at Genshagen (major success--actual output reached over 1,200 engines per month in 1944)
    • 5.2bn Reichsmarks into all Luftwaffe industries from 1939-1942 (explains much of the "armaments miracle")

    In the absence of American involvement, perhaps more would've been allocated to current weapons production. Alternatively, Britain and the USSR would've faced a massive flood of German production in 1943 and later without a corresponding flood of American production.

    Figures are from Adam Tooze's book The Wages of Destruction.


    Given how absurdly confident Hitler and his generals were of victory in June/July 1941 (they really thought the Soviet Union would collapse in a few weeks), this seems likely to me.
    They really had no idea about Soviet capabilities. I’m currently reading a German book about the Wehrmacht, and the picture that emerges of Barbarossa is one of absolute hubris (e.g. the well-known fact that only a fairly small part of the Wehrmacht was motorized, the inferiority of German tanks to some Soviet designs, only compensated in 1941 by better German tactics, use of radio etc., the divisions destined for occupation duties in the rear being grotesquely under-manned and under-equipped, and much more).
     
    Monday morning quarterbacking is easy.

    The situation in the fall of 1940 was that the Luftwaffe had failed to defeat Britain, the Kriegsmarine was a tiny force, and Germany was facing a long global war against the vastly superior combined resources of the United States and British Empire. At the same time it was falling into dangerous dependence on the Soviet Union.

    Unlike the Luftwaffe, the German Army had seemingly proven itself as an apparently invincible war winning weapon. Conquering Russia would solve Germany's raw materials problem and provide it with all the resources it required to face the Anglo-American onslaught.

    While one shouldn't excuse German hubris and poor intelligence, the fact that the Red Army had assembled more tanks and aircraft than the rest of the world combined was certainly shocking to everyone. So too was the size of the Red Army and the ability of Soviet leadership to rapidly form divisions. The Germans had expected to face 200 divisions, but by the time Barbarossa concluded they had faced something like 700 Soviet divisions.

    A lot of very advanced Soviet weapons did appear in 1940-1941 (not just the T-34 but also the ZiS-2 57mm anti-tank gun, the M1939 85mm flak cannon, the A-19 122mm field gun, the Yak-3, etc.), but fortunately relatively little of it was in service in 1941. The Il-2 also entered service that year but Great Patriotic War mythology aside it was a bad aircraft and should not have entered service.

    Also working in favor of the invading Germans was the continuing presence in the Soviet high command of very big-brained individuals like Artillery Directorate Chief Grigory Kulik, who had the inventor of the automatic grenade launcher executed and considered land mines to be a weapon of cowards. One of the reasons the T-34s encountered in 1941 were not a threat (aside from bad training, bad manufacturing quality, and bad deployment) was that Kulik deliberately sabotaged their anti-tank armament by supply an inferior gun and reducing the allocation of shells to the tanks.

    It's true that the Wehrmacht was not motorized (and in fact progressively demotorized throughout the war), but the Red Army was not either. Obviously the lack of trucks caused enormous problems, but none the less the Germans advanced into the USSR in 1941 as fast as the Americans did into Iraq in 2003.

    Replies: @German_reader, @Gerard2, @Epigon, @Grahamsno(G64)

    …and what stopped them from concentrating on defeating the British in North Africa by way of not conducting Barbarossa? Thus saving valuable resources and military power being sent east – particularly with the Italian forces at an early stage in North Africa proving to be not so successful.
    The Shah of Iran had come out of support for the Nazis, M-R pact – surely all this secured them a steady oil supply for the short-medium term?

    If you are saying that the Kriegsmarine were so outmatched by the British that they were going to get smashed in the Mediterranean sea ( thus making land /air combat in North Africa redundant) then surely you could argue that Wehrmacht combined could have turned the situation by spoiler tactics- engaging the British to such an extent -hurting their oil infrastructure in North Africa, hitting naval oil routes back to Britain – that some treaty over the oil states would have been reached? North Africa was the British Empire’s biggest source of oil.

    Let’s not forget that Britain never once entered Poland in WW2, defeating an enemy (positioned 30 km away through the Eenglish Channel) by first defeating them in North Africa, then going through Italy via the south, THEN belatedly going through northern France ( as the Soviets start liberating Europe) is practically an unheard of method of victory in war – very successful in this instance…but one in which if the Nazi’s had known this as if psychic- they would probably have thought that “North Africa – Italy – then France” method creates a series of “fail-safes” in strategy for the Nazis from they would have been very confident of not losing the war

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    @Gerard2

    …and what stopped them from concentrating on defeating the British in North Africa by way of not conducting Barbarossa? Thus saving valuable resources and military power being sent east – particularly with the Italian forces at an early stage in North Africa proving to be not so successful.
     

    Logistics are the largest reason. Prior to Operation Sonnenblume, the Germans determined the largest force that could be fielded in North Africa and supplied from Italy was just four divisions (compare to the Eastern Front).

    That is not the sole reason of course, as even this Hitler refused to send. The Italians after the war accused Hitler of having a purely "continental" strategic view. Erich Raeder, commander of the Kriegsmarine, suggested taking Gibraltar (with or without Franco's consent) and expanding into the Mediterranean.

    The German airborne invasion of Crete, while a success, perhaps in a way doomed the small Afrika Korps that Hitler did authorize. Owing to the huge losses at Crete, the Germans chose to cancel the planned invasion of Malta (Operation Hercules). Malta in turn aided the British in interdicting Italian supply convoys to Africa.

    German and Italian troops in Africa always suffered extreme shortages and relied heavily on captured equipment (by the time of 1st El Alamein over 80% of Rommel's truck park was captured British vehicles). The situation was so bad that Axis troops in Africa even suffered from nutritional deficiencies and were jaundiced.

    The Shah of Iran had come out of support for the Nazis, M-R pact – surely all this secured them a steady oil supply for the short-medium term?
     

    Sort of. He simply declared neutrality and refused to expel German railwaymen and other technical specialists. Iran also reduced its trade with Germany at the request of the British.

    His actions were considered insufficient, and given the importance of Iran to Britain and the USSR the hapless country was invaded and occupied.

    In any case owing to the Royal Navy there was no way to ship Iranian oil to Germany. In theory Iranian oil could've been shipped overland through Turkey, but the British could've seized Iran (or just the oilfields) long before any such infrastructure could be built.

    If you are saying that the Kriegsmarine were so outmatched by the British that they were going to get smashed in the Mediterranean sea ( thus making land /air combat in North Africa redundant) then surely you could argue that Wehrmacht combined could have turned the situation by spoiler tactics- engaging the British to such an extent -hurting their oil infrastructure in North Africa, hitting naval oil routes back to Britain – that some treaty over the oil states would have been reached? North Africa was the British Empire’s biggest source of oil.
     

    The Kriegsmarine did not even have the ability to enter the Mediterranean Sea because the British controlled Gibraltar and Suez. They were able to infiltrate some U-boats.

    The Regia Marina was a fairly large force, but it did not have the same high standards as the British. It also suffered from chronic shortages of fuel and thus often was not able to sortie.

    There was no oil in North Africa then (it had not yet been discovered), and since Italy's entry into the war convoys from the east had already been routed around the Cape of Good Hope rather than through the Mediterranean.

    An Axis victory in the Western Desert Campaign was in my view possible, but then what? Britain would be excluded from the Mediterranean...but still undefeated. Presumably Axis forces could've gone onto Iran, which was Britain's major source of oil (British Petroleum was originally known as Anglo-Persian), but Britain could also import oil from the rest of the world.

    Let’s not forget that Britain never once entered Poland in WW2, defeating an enemy (positioned 30 km away through the Eenglish Channel) by first defeating them in North Africa, then going through Italy via the south, THEN belatedly going through northern France ( as the Soviets start liberating Europe) is practically an unheard of method of victory in war – very successful in this instance…but one in which if the Nazi’s had known this as if psychic- they would probably have thought that “North Africa – Italy – then France” method creates a series of “fail-safes” in strategy for the Nazis from they would have been very confident of not losing the war
     

    The British did draw up plans to invade Soviet-occupied Eastern Europe in 1945 in order to liberate Poland, but the plan was not carried out for reasons of sanity. The planners clearly had a sense of humor as the plan was named Operation Unthinkable.

    As a seapower on the edge of Europe with limited amounts of manpower Britain traditionally exerted itself on the continent through its navy and commercial power. It did field a respectable army, but it was never large and always fought in coalition. After the 100 Years War the only time Britain ever fielded a massive army in Europe for many years in a row was in WW1.

    British strategy against Germany was fixed in 1936 to focus on strategic bombing. It was in 1936 that the Air Ministry issued Specification P.13/36 for a "worldwide bomber". This ultimately led to the Avro Lancaster, superior to the American B-17 and B-24. In order to mollify the French, the Chamberlain government also agreed to send a small expeditionary force (the BEF) to the Continent again as in 1914.

    The Anglo-French plan was to stay on the defensive while strangling Germany with economic warfare. They would then use their superior resources (Britain and France had a GDP 60% larger than Germany and Italy) to eventually overwhelm Germany. This was in effect what had worked in WW1, and the defensive mindset was common to a generation of leaders who had cut their teeth fighting the exceptionally skilled German army and had no desire to repeat the horrors of the Somme and Verdun.

    Yes, obviously this meant that they never intended to lift a finger for Poland. Too bad for the idiot Poles for being duped by the West.

    Unfortunately for their clever plan, the French were unexpectedly completely defeated. In fact, while the Entente expected Poland's defeat, they also thought Poland would hold out for three months rather than three weeks.

    The British were still focused on their strategic bombing plan (which ultimately developed into a terrifying weapon), but were forced to improvise. As German_reader pointed out, obviously the British alone invading Europe (right after losing all their army's heavy equipment) to face the entire German army was suicidal.

    In fact the British never wanted to invade Europe again at all after the Fall of France except in peripheral actions meant to advance postwar British strategic interests. They had to be dragooned into invading Europe by America, which was more eager to fight and had superior resources.

    In fairness to the British their strategic bombing plan was sound as demonstrated by the Battle of the Ruhr.

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson, @LondonBob, @Gerard2

    , @Gerard2
    @Gerard2

    Thanks for that.... very interesting.Basic and lazy errors about oil from myself there - my apologies!

  43. @German_reader
    @Thorfinnsson


    and Germany was facing a long global war against the vastly superior combined resources of the United States and British Empire
     
    imo that exaggerates the situation. There was no immediate prospect of the US directly entering the war, a majority of the US public was against it (and it's not even clear to me Roosevelt wanted direct intervention, maybe he would have been content with lend-lease and US navy patrols in the North Atlantic). And Britain on her own could never have expelled German forces from German-occupied Europe (Anglo-supremacists who claim otherwise usually have to resort to fantasy scenarios involving atomic weapons or mass armies of enthusiastic Indians fighting in Europe), in fact couldn't even do all that much against Germany until 1943 when the bombing offensive escalated.
    tbh I have to wonder a bit what kind of ideological biases are present in Tooze's work, if I understand correctly, he comes close to claiming that Britain and the US were Hitler's main enemy, with the Soviet Union almost an afterthought in Hitler's world view (which would seem very questionable to me).

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson, @Anatoly Karlin

    … with the Soviet Union almost an afterthought in Hitler’s world view (which would seem very questionable to me).

    He is actually highly respectful of Soviet industrial and organizational accomplishments.

    I might try to write a review in the next couple of months. Thankfully Thorfinnsson’s poasts have been a good refresher.

  44. @Anatoly Karlin
    @Thorfinnsson

    Correct, that's (my own) SSD.

    @ Dmitry,


    With this processor, I guess it would be more suitable to match with something like a 1070? I’m no expert, but I would assume 1070 would be more suitable to match it with?
     
    1070 has very similar performance to 1660-Ti but is almost three years old and just as expensive. No real point to it.

    Replies: @Dmitry, @donnyess

    Sure if it’s the same or similar price,I guess there is no danger to buy newer GPU.

    But nonetheless to say, with a 6 years old mid-range CPU, probably at best it will not attain performance difference of the new GPU over a few years old 1070, and at worse the CPU will bottleneck the new card and stutter (but then you could just set a fps limit at 60, so it will still be ok).

    And I guess you will also try to run the processor at 4.5 or whatever is not too hot for it? and then see how it works with the new GPU. Anyway it will be interesting to read your reports on this.

  45. India might try to collaborate with the UK (BAE Systems) on developing a new fighter plane by 2035.

    Will India and the UK Co-Develop a Sixth-Generation Fighter Aircraft?

    The United Kingdom is slated to invite India this month to jointly develop a sixth-generation fighter jet under the Tempest Future Fighter Aircraft project, according to Indian media reports. British Ministry of Defense (MoD) officials and executives from BAE Systems are expected to brief Indian MoD and Indian Air Force officials on the project during the Aero India 2019 exhibition, which will kick off in Bengaluru in the southern Indian state of Karnataka on February 18.

    “We are looking for international partners to access the best assured capability [for developing the Tempest],” Nik Khanna, the head of BAE Systems India, was quoted as saying by the Business Standard. As to India’s specific role in the Tempest project, Khanna said: “A big cost driver for a futuristic aerospace system is going to be the requirement for more and more software engineers. India has a huge capability in that area.”

    The Tempest Future Fighter Aircraft project aims to design and deploy a sixth-generation stealth fighter for the British Royal Air Force (RAF) by 2035. The project is headed by BAE Systems. Project partners to date include Italian defense contractor Leonardo for the aircraft’s integrated sensors and electronic warfare capabilities, the European consortium MBDA for the aircraft’s weapons systems, and the U.K.’s Rolls-Royce for the aircraft’s engine.

    https://thediplomat.com/2019/02/will-india-and-the-uk-co-develop-a-sixth-generation-fighter-aircraft/

    • Replies: @Vishnugupta
    @Dmitry

    I believe the current plan as to field the much delayed LCA fighter and it's advanced variants in some numbers thereby stabilizing the production line and then build the AMCA with technical assistance from SAAB(The company from a small country most desperate for new orders and thus most likely to transfer technology.)

    SAAB had also been roped in by S Korea for one of their KFX concepts..

    We would have to be Arab/African level stupid to collaborate with a card carrying leading member of the Anglo MIC(BAE) and expect any other outcome other than spending vast amounts of money in exchange for glorified screwdriver assembly rights with no access to source codes and no significant R&D work for Indian companies/organizations...

  46. @Dmitry
    India might try to collaborate with the UK (BAE Systems) on developing a new fighter plane by 2035.

    Will India and the UK Co-Develop a Sixth-Generation Fighter Aircraft?

    The United Kingdom is slated to invite India this month to jointly develop a sixth-generation fighter jet under the Tempest Future Fighter Aircraft project, according to Indian media reports. British Ministry of Defense (MoD) officials and executives from BAE Systems are expected to brief Indian MoD and Indian Air Force officials on the project during the Aero India 2019 exhibition, which will kick off in Bengaluru in the southern Indian state of Karnataka on February 18.

    “We are looking for international partners to access the best assured capability [for developing the Tempest],” Nik Khanna, the head of BAE Systems India, was quoted as saying by the Business Standard. As to India’s specific role in the Tempest project, Khanna said: “A big cost driver for a futuristic aerospace system is going to be the requirement for more and more software engineers. India has a huge capability in that area.”

    The Tempest Future Fighter Aircraft project aims to design and deploy a sixth-generation stealth fighter for the British Royal Air Force (RAF) by 2035. The project is headed by BAE Systems. Project partners to date include Italian defense contractor Leonardo for the aircraft’s integrated sensors and electronic warfare capabilities, the European consortium MBDA for the aircraft’s weapons systems, and the U.K.’s Rolls-Royce for the aircraft’s engine.
     
    https://thediplomat.com/2019/02/will-india-and-the-uk-co-develop-a-sixth-generation-fighter-aircraft/

    Replies: @Vishnugupta

    I believe the current plan as to field the much delayed LCA fighter and it’s advanced variants in some numbers thereby stabilizing the production line and then build the AMCA with technical assistance from SAAB(The company from a small country most desperate for new orders and thus most likely to transfer technology.)

    SAAB had also been roped in by S Korea for one of their KFX concepts..

    We would have to be Arab/African level stupid to collaborate with a card carrying leading member of the Anglo MIC(BAE) and expect any other outcome other than spending vast amounts of money in exchange for glorified screwdriver assembly rights with no access to source codes and no significant R&D work for Indian companies/organizations…

  47. @Gerard2
    @Thorfinnsson

    ...and what stopped them from concentrating on defeating the British in North Africa by way of not conducting Barbarossa? Thus saving valuable resources and military power being sent east - particularly with the Italian forces at an early stage in North Africa proving to be not so successful.
    The Shah of Iran had come out of support for the Nazis, M-R pact - surely all this secured them a steady oil supply for the short-medium term?

    If you are saying that the Kriegsmarine were so outmatched by the British that they were going to get smashed in the Mediterranean sea ( thus making land /air combat in North Africa redundant) then surely you could argue that Wehrmacht combined could have turned the situation by spoiler tactics- engaging the British to such an extent -hurting their oil infrastructure in North Africa, hitting naval oil routes back to Britain - that some treaty over the oil states would have been reached? North Africa was the British Empire's biggest source of oil.



    Let's not forget that Britain never once entered Poland in WW2, defeating an enemy (positioned 30 km away through the Eenglish Channel) by first defeating them in North Africa, then going through Italy via the south, THEN belatedly going through northern France ( as the Soviets start liberating Europe) is practically an unheard of method of victory in war - very successful in this instance...but one in which if the Nazi's had known this as if psychic- they would probably have thought that "North Africa - Italy - then France" method creates a series of "fail-safes" in strategy for the Nazis from they would have been very confident of not losing the war

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson, @Gerard2

    …and what stopped them from concentrating on defeating the British in North Africa by way of not conducting Barbarossa? Thus saving valuable resources and military power being sent east – particularly with the Italian forces at an early stage in North Africa proving to be not so successful.

    Logistics are the largest reason. Prior to Operation Sonnenblume, the Germans determined the largest force that could be fielded in North Africa and supplied from Italy was just four divisions (compare to the Eastern Front).

    That is not the sole reason of course, as even this Hitler refused to send. The Italians after the war accused Hitler of having a purely “continental” strategic view. Erich Raeder, commander of the Kriegsmarine, suggested taking Gibraltar (with or without Franco’s consent) and expanding into the Mediterranean.

    The German airborne invasion of Crete, while a success, perhaps in a way doomed the small Afrika Korps that Hitler did authorize. Owing to the huge losses at Crete, the Germans chose to cancel the planned invasion of Malta (Operation Hercules). Malta in turn aided the British in interdicting Italian supply convoys to Africa.

    German and Italian troops in Africa always suffered extreme shortages and relied heavily on captured equipment (by the time of 1st El Alamein over 80% of Rommel’s truck park was captured British vehicles). The situation was so bad that Axis troops in Africa even suffered from nutritional deficiencies and were jaundiced.

    The Shah of Iran had come out of support for the Nazis, M-R pact – surely all this secured them a steady oil supply for the short-medium term?

    Sort of. He simply declared neutrality and refused to expel German railwaymen and other technical specialists. Iran also reduced its trade with Germany at the request of the British.

    His actions were considered insufficient, and given the importance of Iran to Britain and the USSR the hapless country was invaded and occupied.

    In any case owing to the Royal Navy there was no way to ship Iranian oil to Germany. In theory Iranian oil could’ve been shipped overland through Turkey, but the British could’ve seized Iran (or just the oilfields) long before any such infrastructure could be built.

    If you are saying that the Kriegsmarine were so outmatched by the British that they were going to get smashed in the Mediterranean sea ( thus making land /air combat in North Africa redundant) then surely you could argue that Wehrmacht combined could have turned the situation by spoiler tactics- engaging the British to such an extent -hurting their oil infrastructure in North Africa, hitting naval oil routes back to Britain – that some treaty over the oil states would have been reached? North Africa was the British Empire’s biggest source of oil.

    The Kriegsmarine did not even have the ability to enter the Mediterranean Sea because the British controlled Gibraltar and Suez. They were able to infiltrate some U-boats.

    The Regia Marina was a fairly large force, but it did not have the same high standards as the British. It also suffered from chronic shortages of fuel and thus often was not able to sortie.

    There was no oil in North Africa then (it had not yet been discovered), and since Italy’s entry into the war convoys from the east had already been routed around the Cape of Good Hope rather than through the Mediterranean.

    An Axis victory in the Western Desert Campaign was in my view possible, but then what? Britain would be excluded from the Mediterranean…but still undefeated. Presumably Axis forces could’ve gone onto Iran, which was Britain’s major source of oil (British Petroleum was originally known as Anglo-Persian), but Britain could also import oil from the rest of the world.

    Let’s not forget that Britain never once entered Poland in WW2, defeating an enemy (positioned 30 km away through the Eenglish Channel) by first defeating them in North Africa, then going through Italy via the south, THEN belatedly going through northern France ( as the Soviets start liberating Europe) is practically an unheard of method of victory in war – very successful in this instance…but one in which if the Nazi’s had known this as if psychic- they would probably have thought that “North Africa – Italy – then France” method creates a series of “fail-safes” in strategy for the Nazis from they would have been very confident of not losing the war

    The British did draw up plans to invade Soviet-occupied Eastern Europe in 1945 in order to liberate Poland, but the plan was not carried out for reasons of sanity. The planners clearly had a sense of humor as the plan was named Operation Unthinkable.

    As a seapower on the edge of Europe with limited amounts of manpower Britain traditionally exerted itself on the continent through its navy and commercial power. It did field a respectable army, but it was never large and always fought in coalition. After the 100 Years War the only time Britain ever fielded a massive army in Europe for many years in a row was in WW1.

    British strategy against Germany was fixed in 1936 to focus on strategic bombing. It was in 1936 that the Air Ministry issued Specification P.13/36 for a “worldwide bomber”. This ultimately led to the Avro Lancaster, superior to the American B-17 and B-24. In order to mollify the French, the Chamberlain government also agreed to send a small expeditionary force (the BEF) to the Continent again as in 1914.

    The Anglo-French plan was to stay on the defensive while strangling Germany with economic warfare. They would then use their superior resources (Britain and France had a GDP 60% larger than Germany and Italy) to eventually overwhelm Germany. This was in effect what had worked in WW1, and the defensive mindset was common to a generation of leaders who had cut their teeth fighting the exceptionally skilled German army and had no desire to repeat the horrors of the Somme and Verdun.

    Yes, obviously this meant that they never intended to lift a finger for Poland. Too bad for the idiot Poles for being duped by the West.

    Unfortunately for their clever plan, the French were unexpectedly completely defeated. In fact, while the Entente expected Poland’s defeat, they also thought Poland would hold out for three months rather than three weeks.

    The British were still focused on their strategic bombing plan (which ultimately developed into a terrifying weapon), but were forced to improvise. As German_reader pointed out, obviously the British alone invading Europe (right after losing all their army’s heavy equipment) to face the entire German army was suicidal.

    In fact the British never wanted to invade Europe again at all after the Fall of France except in peripheral actions meant to advance postwar British strategic interests. They had to be dragooned into invading Europe by America, which was more eager to fight and had superior resources.

    In fairness to the British their strategic bombing plan was sound as demonstrated by the Battle of the Ruhr.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    @Thorfinnsson

    Note: it seems there was some oil production in Egypt. Here are global oil production figures from 1940:



    USA 182.657 Mt
    USSR 29.700 Mt
    Venezuela 27.443 Mt
    Iran 10.426 Mt
    Indonesia 7.939 Mt
    Mexico 6.721 Mt
    Romania 5.764 Mt
    Columbia 3.636 Mt
    Iraq 3.438 Mt
    Argentina 2.871 Mt
    Trinidad 2.844 Mt
    Peru 1.776 Mt
    Burma 1.088 Mt
    Canada 1.082 Mt
    Egypt 0.929 Mt
     
    Source: https://wayback.archive-it.org/6321/20160901222852/http://digital.library.northwestern.edu/league/le0280ah.pdf

    Oil production of Roumania, Iraq, and Iran is about two-thirds the Soviet level. It certainly does suggest an alternative strategy.

    Possible problems with this strategy from Hitler's POV in the fall of 1940:

    • Requires extensive cooperation with other countries (Italy, Spain, Turkey, etc.)
    • German arms "wasted" for the benefit of other countries
    • Little grain and no coal to be had in North Africa and the Near East
    • Transportation difficulties
    • Continued dependence on the USSR
    , @LondonBob
    @Thorfinnsson

    An invasion of France in '43 would have been disastrous. We had the benefit of experience from Dieppe to know how risky it was. Had the Panzers deployed sooner the actual invasion in '44 might have similarly ended in disaster.

    , @Gerard2
    @Thorfinnsson

    thanks for that - very interesting. Big and lazy errors from myself about oil production during the war - my apologies!

  48. About a potential monitor upgrade:

    1440 p is very much worth it (4k is only useful if you’re willing to spend a lot of money on monitor and pc upgrades). 120 or more hertz instead of 60 is even more worth it (even if you primarily or only play single player), a real and visible difference.

    • Disagree: WHAT
  49. @Thorfinnsson
    @Gerard2

    …and what stopped them from concentrating on defeating the British in North Africa by way of not conducting Barbarossa? Thus saving valuable resources and military power being sent east – particularly with the Italian forces at an early stage in North Africa proving to be not so successful.
     

    Logistics are the largest reason. Prior to Operation Sonnenblume, the Germans determined the largest force that could be fielded in North Africa and supplied from Italy was just four divisions (compare to the Eastern Front).

    That is not the sole reason of course, as even this Hitler refused to send. The Italians after the war accused Hitler of having a purely "continental" strategic view. Erich Raeder, commander of the Kriegsmarine, suggested taking Gibraltar (with or without Franco's consent) and expanding into the Mediterranean.

    The German airborne invasion of Crete, while a success, perhaps in a way doomed the small Afrika Korps that Hitler did authorize. Owing to the huge losses at Crete, the Germans chose to cancel the planned invasion of Malta (Operation Hercules). Malta in turn aided the British in interdicting Italian supply convoys to Africa.

    German and Italian troops in Africa always suffered extreme shortages and relied heavily on captured equipment (by the time of 1st El Alamein over 80% of Rommel's truck park was captured British vehicles). The situation was so bad that Axis troops in Africa even suffered from nutritional deficiencies and were jaundiced.

    The Shah of Iran had come out of support for the Nazis, M-R pact – surely all this secured them a steady oil supply for the short-medium term?
     

    Sort of. He simply declared neutrality and refused to expel German railwaymen and other technical specialists. Iran also reduced its trade with Germany at the request of the British.

    His actions were considered insufficient, and given the importance of Iran to Britain and the USSR the hapless country was invaded and occupied.

    In any case owing to the Royal Navy there was no way to ship Iranian oil to Germany. In theory Iranian oil could've been shipped overland through Turkey, but the British could've seized Iran (or just the oilfields) long before any such infrastructure could be built.

    If you are saying that the Kriegsmarine were so outmatched by the British that they were going to get smashed in the Mediterranean sea ( thus making land /air combat in North Africa redundant) then surely you could argue that Wehrmacht combined could have turned the situation by spoiler tactics- engaging the British to such an extent -hurting their oil infrastructure in North Africa, hitting naval oil routes back to Britain – that some treaty over the oil states would have been reached? North Africa was the British Empire’s biggest source of oil.
     

    The Kriegsmarine did not even have the ability to enter the Mediterranean Sea because the British controlled Gibraltar and Suez. They were able to infiltrate some U-boats.

    The Regia Marina was a fairly large force, but it did not have the same high standards as the British. It also suffered from chronic shortages of fuel and thus often was not able to sortie.

    There was no oil in North Africa then (it had not yet been discovered), and since Italy's entry into the war convoys from the east had already been routed around the Cape of Good Hope rather than through the Mediterranean.

    An Axis victory in the Western Desert Campaign was in my view possible, but then what? Britain would be excluded from the Mediterranean...but still undefeated. Presumably Axis forces could've gone onto Iran, which was Britain's major source of oil (British Petroleum was originally known as Anglo-Persian), but Britain could also import oil from the rest of the world.

    Let’s not forget that Britain never once entered Poland in WW2, defeating an enemy (positioned 30 km away through the Eenglish Channel) by first defeating them in North Africa, then going through Italy via the south, THEN belatedly going through northern France ( as the Soviets start liberating Europe) is practically an unheard of method of victory in war – very successful in this instance…but one in which if the Nazi’s had known this as if psychic- they would probably have thought that “North Africa – Italy – then France” method creates a series of “fail-safes” in strategy for the Nazis from they would have been very confident of not losing the war
     

    The British did draw up plans to invade Soviet-occupied Eastern Europe in 1945 in order to liberate Poland, but the plan was not carried out for reasons of sanity. The planners clearly had a sense of humor as the plan was named Operation Unthinkable.

    As a seapower on the edge of Europe with limited amounts of manpower Britain traditionally exerted itself on the continent through its navy and commercial power. It did field a respectable army, but it was never large and always fought in coalition. After the 100 Years War the only time Britain ever fielded a massive army in Europe for many years in a row was in WW1.

    British strategy against Germany was fixed in 1936 to focus on strategic bombing. It was in 1936 that the Air Ministry issued Specification P.13/36 for a "worldwide bomber". This ultimately led to the Avro Lancaster, superior to the American B-17 and B-24. In order to mollify the French, the Chamberlain government also agreed to send a small expeditionary force (the BEF) to the Continent again as in 1914.

    The Anglo-French plan was to stay on the defensive while strangling Germany with economic warfare. They would then use their superior resources (Britain and France had a GDP 60% larger than Germany and Italy) to eventually overwhelm Germany. This was in effect what had worked in WW1, and the defensive mindset was common to a generation of leaders who had cut their teeth fighting the exceptionally skilled German army and had no desire to repeat the horrors of the Somme and Verdun.

    Yes, obviously this meant that they never intended to lift a finger for Poland. Too bad for the idiot Poles for being duped by the West.

    Unfortunately for their clever plan, the French were unexpectedly completely defeated. In fact, while the Entente expected Poland's defeat, they also thought Poland would hold out for three months rather than three weeks.

    The British were still focused on their strategic bombing plan (which ultimately developed into a terrifying weapon), but were forced to improvise. As German_reader pointed out, obviously the British alone invading Europe (right after losing all their army's heavy equipment) to face the entire German army was suicidal.

    In fact the British never wanted to invade Europe again at all after the Fall of France except in peripheral actions meant to advance postwar British strategic interests. They had to be dragooned into invading Europe by America, which was more eager to fight and had superior resources.

    In fairness to the British their strategic bombing plan was sound as demonstrated by the Battle of the Ruhr.

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson, @LondonBob, @Gerard2

    Note: it seems there was some oil production in Egypt. Here are global oil production figures from 1940:

    USA 182.657 Mt
    USSR 29.700 Mt
    Venezuela 27.443 Mt
    Iran 10.426 Mt
    Indonesia 7.939 Mt
    Mexico 6.721 Mt
    Romania 5.764 Mt
    Columbia 3.636 Mt
    Iraq 3.438 Mt
    Argentina 2.871 Mt
    Trinidad 2.844 Mt
    Peru 1.776 Mt
    Burma 1.088 Mt
    Canada 1.082 Mt
    Egypt 0.929 Mt

    Source: https://wayback.archive-it.org/6321/20160901222852/http://digital.library.northwestern.edu/league/le0280ah.pdf

    Oil production of Roumania, Iraq, and Iran is about two-thirds the Soviet level. It certainly does suggest an alternative strategy.

    Possible problems with this strategy from Hitler’s POV in the fall of 1940:

    • Requires extensive cooperation with other countries (Italy, Spain, Turkey, etc.)
    • German arms “wasted” for the benefit of other countries
    • Little grain and no coal to be had in North Africa and the Near East
    • Transportation difficulties
    • Continued dependence on the USSR

  50. @Hyperborean
    The result of being the puppet of a foreign master:

    The new law states that any person who enters the country legally — and resides in it for a year legally — can get the Iraqi passport.

    [...]

    Raja’s Yousef explained the fear from the new law saying: “In the nearest religious visit, if 2 million Iranian came into Iraq, and a million do not return back to Iran, after one year they will be give the Iraqi passport and a social welfare of 500,000 dinars i.e. $400 and they will send to their families back home. This is all is taken from the Iraqi orphans money.”

    [...]

    Another Iraqi wrote: “The new nationalisation law aims to change the demographics in Iraq, end the presence of the Iraqi people as a genuine people and replace it with races and ethnicities from Iran, Afghanistan, India and others.”

    [...]

    “Kurds are part of this society; they were victims of the sectarian and racist practices of the old regime. At the time of Saddam, they were subjected to the most heinous genocides and forced displacements, as hundreds of thousands of them were dumped in the open, on the Iranian border, and all their possessions were confiscated,” Abu Hussein added “Justice must be done and their rights returned to them”

     

    https://www.amren.com/news/2019/03/new-iraqi-citizenship-law-stirs-controversy/

    Replies: @songbird

    A lot of the “real” Arabs seem to have somewhat tenuous demographics. Not exactly collapsing TFR, but just copious amounts of foreign workers, many of them subcon or Indonesian Muslims who can claim being brothers in Islam. Then there are all the “natives” with heavy African ancestry from Zanj days, (in Iraq, 500,000) as well as those recently arrived Africans who are desperate even to cross into Yemen.

    Their political system is mainly constructed from big men writing checks. Perhaps, tribal politics makes it unlikely that they will write those big checks to Africans and Pakis. They don’t seem to suffer from one-worldism, as the foreign laborers are generally treated like helots and often sex-segregated.

    BTW, Trump is calling for the Golan Heights to be recognized as part of Israel. No wonder he is on Israeli campaign posters! Is there any real difference between him and Bibi?

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @songbird


    Trump is calling for the Golan Heights

     

    Unless later Democrat presidents will reverse it, Trump is giving - or trying to give - all the most serious possible victories to Israel.

    Probably in order of significance.
    1. Trying to recognize Israel's annexation of Golan Heights, which is rebelling against all previous US governments, and all international consensus. (Golan Heights is perhaps more militarily significant for Israel, than Crimea for Russia).
    2. Leaving Iran nuclear deal (this results in economic sanctions which limit Iran's expansion).
    3. Moving embassy to Jerusalem.

    -

    However, Israel becomes now a partisan topic in American politics, and is associated with Trump.

    This will contribute to future instability in US attitude to Israel, as Republican become more pro-Israel, and Democrats more anti-Israel, every year. Over a century, amount of time America has Republican presidents and Democrat presidents will be approximately equal - so as a partisan topic, Israel will only be supported so strongly, half of the time.

    Nonetheless, a country like Ukraine would be very happy if it would become even noticed enough to be a slightly partisan topic in American politics.


    Is there any real difference between him and Bibi?
     
    Netanyahu is less of an Israel partisan - he tried to return the Golan Heights to Syria more than one time.

    Replies: @Dmitry, @Anonymous, @for-the-record

    , @Hyperborean
    @songbird


    Their political system is mainly constructed from big men writing checks. Perhaps, tribal politics makes it unlikely that they will write those big checks to Africans and Pakis. They don’t seem to suffer from one-worldism, as the foreign laborers are generally treated like helots and often sex-segregated.
     
    The many of smaller Gulf states are like 70-90% non-core population, granted some of that will be expats, who while not exactly favourable to the native Arabs won't be hostile.

    I don't think anything serious will happen as long as the KSA has the power to intervene, but if Saudi Arabia gets embroiled in domestic troubles, things might get interesting.

    Even if a gastarbeiter revolt is crushed, given that the Gulf Arabs haven't worked for generations, the small countries would face a lot of economic instability.

    An amusing anecdote about Arab hypocrisy (beyond the anal sex that is): One of my elder brothers, who works for a large corporation, was stationed in Qatar and he told me that in order to access deviant beverages forbidden to natives some Arab men would discard their Bedouin dress and put on suits and then walk into establishments that are allowed to serve alcohol to foreigners.

    Replies: @LondonBob

  51. @songbird
    @Hyperborean

    A lot of the "real" Arabs seem to have somewhat tenuous demographics. Not exactly collapsing TFR, but just copious amounts of foreign workers, many of them subcon or Indonesian Muslims who can claim being brothers in Islam. Then there are all the "natives" with heavy African ancestry from Zanj days, (in Iraq, 500,000) as well as those recently arrived Africans who are desperate even to cross into Yemen.

    Their political system is mainly constructed from big men writing checks. Perhaps, tribal politics makes it unlikely that they will write those big checks to Africans and Pakis. They don't seem to suffer from one-worldism, as the foreign laborers are generally treated like helots and often sex-segregated.

    BTW, Trump is calling for the Golan Heights to be recognized as part of Israel. No wonder he is on Israeli campaign posters! Is there any real difference between him and Bibi?

    Replies: @Dmitry, @Hyperborean

    Trump is calling for the Golan Heights

    Unless later Democrat presidents will reverse it, Trump is giving – or trying to give – all the most serious possible victories to Israel.

    Probably in order of significance.
    1. Trying to recognize Israel’s annexation of Golan Heights, which is rebelling against all previous US governments, and all international consensus. (Golan Heights is perhaps more militarily significant for Israel, than Crimea for Russia).
    2. Leaving Iran nuclear deal (this results in economic sanctions which limit Iran’s expansion).
    3. Moving embassy to Jerusalem.

    However, Israel becomes now a partisan topic in American politics, and is associated with Trump.

    This will contribute to future instability in US attitude to Israel, as Republican become more pro-Israel, and Democrats more anti-Israel, every year. Over a century, amount of time America has Republican presidents and Democrat presidents will be approximately equal – so as a partisan topic, Israel will only be supported so strongly, half of the time.

    Nonetheless, a country like Ukraine would be very happy if it would become even noticed enough to be a slightly partisan topic in American politics.

    Is there any real difference between him and Bibi?

    Netanyahu is less of an Israel partisan – he tried to return the Golan Heights to Syria more than one time.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @Dmitry


    Netanyahu is less of an Israel partisan – he tried to return the Golan Heights to Syria more than one time.

     

    Apparently, it was two times:

    In 1998:
    http://www.danielpipes.org/311/the-road-to-damascus-what-netanyahu-almost-gave-away

    And in 2010:
    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/netanyahu-prepared-to-hand-back-golan-heights-to-syria-in-return-for-peace-say-reports-8209612.html

    It would have destroyed his popularity - Israel has its only ski resort there.

    Replies: @Anon, @DFH, @JL

    , @Anonymous
    @Dmitry

    I think Trump is playing brilliant politics here, and I am no fanboy of his. Democrats are becoming more critical of Israel, but it is still a wedge issue for them, at this time probably the most salient and divisive one. Probably the majority of Democratic voters have a generally neutral-to-negative view of Israel, and now the more strident anti-Zionists (typically younger voters and non-whites) have a voice in Congress with Reps. Omar and Tlaib. But the Dem establishment (embodied in Pelosi and Schumer) is still strongly pro-Israel, and Jewish donors are still a major (really, the major) source of fundraising for establishment Dems.

    This is combustible on many levels: to criticize Omar and Tlaib as a Dem is to open oneself up to allegations of sexism, racism, xenophobia and Islamophobia, which can be lethal to one's career. To support or even tolerate them is to risk alienating Jewish money. All this occurs against the backdrop of Israel taking an increasingly hard line on the settlements and the question of identity, especially if Bibi is re-elected. And Omar and Tlaib, far from being fringe back-benchers, are hip and popular; along with AOC, they have possession of the souls of the young and non-white voters that the Dems are utterly dependent on.

    The Democrats are totally schizophrenic on this issue, and Trump knows it. So he will continually try to up the ante, to push any kind of pro-Israel legislation he can think of, to goad Omar and Tlaib into making more brash statements and to goad the Dems into voting against Israel. He hopes that there will be more intra-party struggle sessions and that they waste time drafting resolutions against each other. And then, come 2020, he will run ads in Florida marketed towards elderly Jews positioning himself as the greatest Zionist since Ben-Gurion. Trump is a piss-poor legislator but he is brilliant in PR.

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @reiner Tor, @neutral, @Hyperborean, @Dmitry

    , @for-the-record
    @Dmitry

    Over a century, amount of time America has Republican presidents and Democrat presidents will be approximately equal

    Not over the next century, I would hazard to predict. But I think your basic point is valid, as its demographic base changes the Democratic Party will be less pro-Israel in the future.

  52. @Dmitry
    @songbird


    Trump is calling for the Golan Heights

     

    Unless later Democrat presidents will reverse it, Trump is giving - or trying to give - all the most serious possible victories to Israel.

    Probably in order of significance.
    1. Trying to recognize Israel's annexation of Golan Heights, which is rebelling against all previous US governments, and all international consensus. (Golan Heights is perhaps more militarily significant for Israel, than Crimea for Russia).
    2. Leaving Iran nuclear deal (this results in economic sanctions which limit Iran's expansion).
    3. Moving embassy to Jerusalem.

    -

    However, Israel becomes now a partisan topic in American politics, and is associated with Trump.

    This will contribute to future instability in US attitude to Israel, as Republican become more pro-Israel, and Democrats more anti-Israel, every year. Over a century, amount of time America has Republican presidents and Democrat presidents will be approximately equal - so as a partisan topic, Israel will only be supported so strongly, half of the time.

    Nonetheless, a country like Ukraine would be very happy if it would become even noticed enough to be a slightly partisan topic in American politics.


    Is there any real difference between him and Bibi?
     
    Netanyahu is less of an Israel partisan - he tried to return the Golan Heights to Syria more than one time.

    Replies: @Dmitry, @Anonymous, @for-the-record

    Netanyahu is less of an Israel partisan – he tried to return the Golan Heights to Syria more than one time.

    Apparently, it was two times:

    In 1998:
    http://www.danielpipes.org/311/the-road-to-damascus-what-netanyahu-almost-gave-away

    And in 2010:
    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/netanyahu-prepared-to-hand-back-golan-heights-to-syria-in-return-for-peace-say-reports-8209612.html

    It would have destroyed his popularity – Israel has its only ski resort there.

    • Replies: @Anon
    @Dmitry

    Yeah, most people get very tense when they have to ski abroad. I mean, look at the Saudis and Qataris - they have to make artificial snow! And the shithole countries, without any kind of snow, real or artificial, are SO SAD!

    And the lack of ski resorts is even more painful if you are talking about Jews, some of the most sporty characters this planet has spawned.

    Just like the Saudi entity has spread over the last 150 years from nothing, the Jewish entity is spreading its creep in its proximity. Luckily, they are both in a place cursed by nature and inhabited by morons, so almost no one care about the precise border, and the few who don't like it, can't do much. If they would visit us only for ski and snow, the rest of the world would be a better place.

    , @DFH
    @Dmitry


    Israel has its only ski resort there
     
    It's like another Shoah!

    Replies: @Dmitry

    , @JL
    @Dmitry


    Israel has its only ski resort there.
     
    Starting this year, there is now a direct flight between Tel Aviv and Sochi. The ski resorts there have been inundated with Israelis, to the extent that Hebrew will be, by far, the language you are most likely to hear after Russian. Sochi is, apparently, a superior substitute to the Alps; closer, cheaper, and Israelis don't need a visa to visit Russia.

    Replies: @Anonymous, @Dmitry

  53. Anonymous[151] • Disclaimer says:
    @Dmitry
    @songbird


    Trump is calling for the Golan Heights

     

    Unless later Democrat presidents will reverse it, Trump is giving - or trying to give - all the most serious possible victories to Israel.

    Probably in order of significance.
    1. Trying to recognize Israel's annexation of Golan Heights, which is rebelling against all previous US governments, and all international consensus. (Golan Heights is perhaps more militarily significant for Israel, than Crimea for Russia).
    2. Leaving Iran nuclear deal (this results in economic sanctions which limit Iran's expansion).
    3. Moving embassy to Jerusalem.

    -

    However, Israel becomes now a partisan topic in American politics, and is associated with Trump.

    This will contribute to future instability in US attitude to Israel, as Republican become more pro-Israel, and Democrats more anti-Israel, every year. Over a century, amount of time America has Republican presidents and Democrat presidents will be approximately equal - so as a partisan topic, Israel will only be supported so strongly, half of the time.

    Nonetheless, a country like Ukraine would be very happy if it would become even noticed enough to be a slightly partisan topic in American politics.


    Is there any real difference between him and Bibi?
     
    Netanyahu is less of an Israel partisan - he tried to return the Golan Heights to Syria more than one time.

    Replies: @Dmitry, @Anonymous, @for-the-record

    I think Trump is playing brilliant politics here, and I am no fanboy of his. Democrats are becoming more critical of Israel, but it is still a wedge issue for them, at this time probably the most salient and divisive one. Probably the majority of Democratic voters have a generally neutral-to-negative view of Israel, and now the more strident anti-Zionists (typically younger voters and non-whites) have a voice in Congress with Reps. Omar and Tlaib. But the Dem establishment (embodied in Pelosi and Schumer) is still strongly pro-Israel, and Jewish donors are still a major (really, the major) source of fundraising for establishment Dems.

    This is combustible on many levels: to criticize Omar and Tlaib as a Dem is to open oneself up to allegations of sexism, racism, xenophobia and Islamophobia, which can be lethal to one’s career. To support or even tolerate them is to risk alienating Jewish money. All this occurs against the backdrop of Israel taking an increasingly hard line on the settlements and the question of identity, especially if Bibi is re-elected. And Omar and Tlaib, far from being fringe back-benchers, are hip and popular; along with AOC, they have possession of the souls of the young and non-white voters that the Dems are utterly dependent on.

    The Democrats are totally schizophrenic on this issue, and Trump knows it. So he will continually try to up the ante, to push any kind of pro-Israel legislation he can think of, to goad Omar and Tlaib into making more brash statements and to goad the Dems into voting against Israel. He hopes that there will be more intra-party struggle sessions and that they waste time drafting resolutions against each other. And then, come 2020, he will run ads in Florida marketed towards elderly Jews positioning himself as the greatest Zionist since Ben-Gurion. Trump is a piss-poor legislator but he is brilliant in PR.

    • Agree: Anatoly Karlin
    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @Anonymous

    Jewish crypsis means that they always have to adapt ideologies which are not explicitly pro-Jewish, only implicitly so. But the ideologies have lives of their own, and they could always easily turn out ultimately anti-Jewish. For example Bolshevism turned out to be less good for the Jews than originally imagined. Similarly with multiculturalism, it will likely be negative for the Jews, longer term.

    But they never seem to be smart enough. They are not very good at universalistic thinking, and so they don’t really understand the direction of these ideologies even as they already start turning on them. See the numerous Jews supporting Bolshevism still in the early 1950s, long after it ceased being good for the Jews.

    Some Jews might already see it, but they still usually cling to some parts of the old and already useless (in fact, outright dangerous) ideology.

    Replies: @Dmitry

    , @reiner Tor
    @Anonymous

    Orbán also seems to consider this strategy: trying to get the Israeli Jews on his side. It might work, though as the Israeli tirade against Poland shows, it’s not an easy thing to pull off.

    Replies: @for-the-record, @Anonymous

    , @neutral
    @Anonymous

    He is also supporting and endless stream of non whites entering America (whether they are legal or illegal the end result is the same), which means Democrats win. He lied to his base, he is a fraud and also a moron politically. He cared more about what happens to faraway Israel instead of whites being persecuted in the land he is officially supposed to represent.

    , @Hyperborean
    @Anonymous


    And then, come 2020, he will run ads in Florida marketed towards elderly Jews positioning himself as the greatest Zionist since Ben-Gurion. Trump is a piss-poor legislator but he is brilliant in PR.
     
    Trump's actions are consistent with decades of support for Israel.
    , @Dmitry
    @Anonymous

    I agree Trump is very clever in marketing (I was sure he was going to be President already when I first saw him talking about it in 2012 in YouTube).

    However, he is not cynical. He believes his policies, like tariffs, Israel and border walls.

    Some of these are consistent for all his life. You can see him discussing trade protectionism in the 1980s on television.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SEPs17_AkTI

    With Israel, the reason everyone knew he was going to be the most pro-Israel American president (before he became president), was because he was personally funding Israeli settlements since 1981.

    His name is in townsquares in two settlements in Israel as a largest donor to their establishment

    https://i.imgur.com/VDEY0Sy.jpg?1

    He wins awards like:


    https://i.imgur.com/4wy3w8n.jpg

    He led "Salute to Israel" parade in 2004 (lol how does this exist?)


    https://i.imgur.com/yGgLMVB.jpg

    In 2006, he spent $44 million to buy land in Israel


    Donald Trump completes $44m purchase of Elite site
     
    https://en.globes.co.il/en/article-1000105798


    Just searching now for this topic, and saw he bought 4 ambulance cycles for Israel in 2014 (there's probably a lot more things like this):


    Beer will be meeting with Trump at his office tomorrow to get the check that will pay for the four new ambucycles.
    Beer commended Trump for his donation, adding “he is a true lover of Israel.”
     
    https://www.vosizneias.com/154841/2014/02/10/new-york-trump-to-donate-rescue-bikes-to-israels-united-hatzalah/

    Replies: @Gerard2

  54. @German_reader
    @Thorfinnsson


    1940 that the USA intended to construct 50,000 aircraft per year and supply them to Britain.
     
    Aircraft are pointless though without aircrew to operate them.
    I haven't personally read Tooze's book (and don't intend to in the near future), so I can't comment in any more detail. Thanks for the interesting discussion.

    Replies: @LondonBob

    What evidence do you have FDR wasn’t completely committed to fighting?

  55. @Anonymous
    @Dmitry

    I think Trump is playing brilliant politics here, and I am no fanboy of his. Democrats are becoming more critical of Israel, but it is still a wedge issue for them, at this time probably the most salient and divisive one. Probably the majority of Democratic voters have a generally neutral-to-negative view of Israel, and now the more strident anti-Zionists (typically younger voters and non-whites) have a voice in Congress with Reps. Omar and Tlaib. But the Dem establishment (embodied in Pelosi and Schumer) is still strongly pro-Israel, and Jewish donors are still a major (really, the major) source of fundraising for establishment Dems.

    This is combustible on many levels: to criticize Omar and Tlaib as a Dem is to open oneself up to allegations of sexism, racism, xenophobia and Islamophobia, which can be lethal to one's career. To support or even tolerate them is to risk alienating Jewish money. All this occurs against the backdrop of Israel taking an increasingly hard line on the settlements and the question of identity, especially if Bibi is re-elected. And Omar and Tlaib, far from being fringe back-benchers, are hip and popular; along with AOC, they have possession of the souls of the young and non-white voters that the Dems are utterly dependent on.

    The Democrats are totally schizophrenic on this issue, and Trump knows it. So he will continually try to up the ante, to push any kind of pro-Israel legislation he can think of, to goad Omar and Tlaib into making more brash statements and to goad the Dems into voting against Israel. He hopes that there will be more intra-party struggle sessions and that they waste time drafting resolutions against each other. And then, come 2020, he will run ads in Florida marketed towards elderly Jews positioning himself as the greatest Zionist since Ben-Gurion. Trump is a piss-poor legislator but he is brilliant in PR.

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @reiner Tor, @neutral, @Hyperborean, @Dmitry

    Jewish crypsis means that they always have to adapt ideologies which are not explicitly pro-Jewish, only implicitly so. But the ideologies have lives of their own, and they could always easily turn out ultimately anti-Jewish. For example Bolshevism turned out to be less good for the Jews than originally imagined. Similarly with multiculturalism, it will likely be negative for the Jews, longer term.

    But they never seem to be smart enough. They are not very good at universalistic thinking, and so they don’t really understand the direction of these ideologies even as they already start turning on them. See the numerous Jews supporting Bolshevism still in the early 1950s, long after it ceased being good for the Jews.

    Some Jews might already see it, but they still usually cling to some parts of the old and already useless (in fact, outright dangerous) ideology.

    • Agree: LondonBob
    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @reiner Tor


    See the numerous Jews supporting Bolshevism still in the early 1950s, long after it ceased being good for the Jews.

     

    It's an autistic theory of mind.

    What you believe is influenced by emotions and this has a racial component particularly when minorities want stronger position in society. Ideologies which favor the latter,may have a more rosy emotional coloration (i.e. seem more attractive).

    But people cannot actually believe or not believe in truth of something, on basis of "racial interest and longterm conspiracies". They believe it because they believe it is the true description of reality.

    Marxism was more religion than political theory, and like Christianity a Jewish-originated religion - (it's structure almost the same as Christianity), whose liberation was universalist. And people who believed it, believed because they thought it was universally true and factual description of reality.

    It was designed for educated people of the era, designed to be easy to believe (supernatural explanations are hidden by Hegelian concepts like "dialectic"), and for Jews it gave opportunity to "completely assimilate" (covert to a kind living Christianity, rather than the formal one which no longer had influence in the world).

    Attraction of Marxism for Jews, precisely is to escape both their external and internal position as Jews, and dissolve into a universal faith and utopia.

    Minus utopia, of course, this is what will have occurred with much of (or most?) Jews believers of Marxism. Their grandchildren today, will usually be 3/4 Slavic, and their great-grandchildren, 7/8 Slavic.

    The "racial interest" to convert to Marxism was to dissolve an unpleasant and dangerous position as Jews, to become important citizens, and this is what happened for a large proportion of them.


    Similarly with multiculturalism, it will likely be negative for the Jews,

     

    Multiculturalism is intrinsically attractive for a large proportion of any population.

    Putin is not Jewish, but he loves multiculturalism almost as his main religion. Merkel is not Jewish, and loves it. Obama not Jewish and loves it.

    It was one of the ideologies which has included both sides of the Cold War. If you think this is only attractive to Jews, and not something intrinsically and universally attractive to a significant proportion of people, then you will soon be confused (unless you extend the conspiracy to include all these people like Putin and Merkel being controlled by Jews).

    Multiculturalism is definitely a "utopian" ideology though, and will soon collapse against reality in most countries.

    Replies: @Dmitry, @German_reader, @reiner Tor

  56. @Anonymous
    @Dmitry

    I think Trump is playing brilliant politics here, and I am no fanboy of his. Democrats are becoming more critical of Israel, but it is still a wedge issue for them, at this time probably the most salient and divisive one. Probably the majority of Democratic voters have a generally neutral-to-negative view of Israel, and now the more strident anti-Zionists (typically younger voters and non-whites) have a voice in Congress with Reps. Omar and Tlaib. But the Dem establishment (embodied in Pelosi and Schumer) is still strongly pro-Israel, and Jewish donors are still a major (really, the major) source of fundraising for establishment Dems.

    This is combustible on many levels: to criticize Omar and Tlaib as a Dem is to open oneself up to allegations of sexism, racism, xenophobia and Islamophobia, which can be lethal to one's career. To support or even tolerate them is to risk alienating Jewish money. All this occurs against the backdrop of Israel taking an increasingly hard line on the settlements and the question of identity, especially if Bibi is re-elected. And Omar and Tlaib, far from being fringe back-benchers, are hip and popular; along with AOC, they have possession of the souls of the young and non-white voters that the Dems are utterly dependent on.

    The Democrats are totally schizophrenic on this issue, and Trump knows it. So he will continually try to up the ante, to push any kind of pro-Israel legislation he can think of, to goad Omar and Tlaib into making more brash statements and to goad the Dems into voting against Israel. He hopes that there will be more intra-party struggle sessions and that they waste time drafting resolutions against each other. And then, come 2020, he will run ads in Florida marketed towards elderly Jews positioning himself as the greatest Zionist since Ben-Gurion. Trump is a piss-poor legislator but he is brilliant in PR.

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @reiner Tor, @neutral, @Hyperborean, @Dmitry

    Orbán also seems to consider this strategy: trying to get the Israeli Jews on his side. It might work, though as the Israeli tirade against Poland shows, it’s not an easy thing to pull off.

    • Replies: @for-the-record
    @reiner Tor

    Orbán also seems to consider this strategy: trying to get the Israeli Jews on his side

    On the other hand (hope you have deep pockets):


    DC court says Holocaust survivors can sue Hungary in the US for huge reparations

    The second-highest court in the United States has reinstated a lawsuit brought by a group of Holocaust survivors and their families against the government of Hungary and its national railroad. The class action suit demands restitution for the role Hungary played in the murder of 500,000 Jews and the seizure of their property during World War II.

    Setting the stage for what could be a landmark civil suit running into the tens of billions of dollars, Judge Patricia A. Millett wrote for the US Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit on December 28 that Hungary could not force the plaintiffs to have the case tried in a Hungarian court.

    The decision overturned that of a federal judge who ruled that the 1947 Paris Peace Treaty between Hungary and the Allied powers granted Hungary immunity. . .

    Over the past 20 years, the Hungarian government has made a pretense of allowing Hungarian Holocaust victims to file claims for their losses, said Zell, but he called the payouts “tantamount to a joke.”

    . . . Zell said that the case against the Hungarian government and the national railway, Magyar Allamvasutak, could see a significant financial claim filed on behalf of Jewish Holocaust survivors.

    “We didn’t put a number in this case, but if it goes forward we’ll be asking for tens of billions of dollars of compensation, which is the amount that would be owed based on the value of the property that was taken at the time of the deportations to the camps,” said Zell. . .

    If the case makes it all the way to a final judgment, the plaintiffs would likely seek satisfaction from Hungarian assets in the US or elsewhere, said Zell.

    https://www.timesofisrael.com/dc-court-says-holocaust-survivors-can-sue-hungary-in-the-us-for-huge-reparations/
     

    Replies: @reiner Tor

    , @Anonymous
    @reiner Tor

    Bari Weiss (American Jewish centre-right columnist and staunch Zionist) did a fawning piece on Israel's Blue and White coalition for the NYT, and one of the main reasons she cited for admiring them is that, unlike Bibi, they won't be friendly with Orban and Bolsonaro.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/19/opinion/netanyahu-israel-yair-lapid.html

    This is unironically the level many American Jews work on with regards to Israel: please reconquer all of Judea and Samaria, but don't you dare be friendly with some guy who said mean stuff about gays! Palestinian blood is unimportant compared to having a designated prayer space for women at the Western Wall.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/11/opinion/religion/israel-women-western-wall.html

    Replies: @German_reader

  57. @Hyperborean
    Regarding the visual arts in Russia:

    I don't really like the modern and geometric style, but at least this one is easily comprehensible.

    https://static1.squarespace.com/static/587cf305f7e0ab6a702dfdaa/t/5c8cf5158165f56352703666/1552741665862/0*Qot-zRE87HYG_jvb..jpeg?format=2500w

    But what are these supposed to represent? I honestly have no clue. If there is no purpose then what is the point?

    https://static1.squarespace.com/static/587cf305f7e0ab6a702dfdaa/5c8d3f69fa0d605b84e24c4b/5c8d3f6f53450a39cc0bae69/1552760688368/0*-z_3rMXKD-LVFtrx..jpeg?format=2500w

    https://static1.squarespace.com/static/587cf305f7e0ab6a702dfdaa/5c8d3f69fa0d605b84e24c4b/5c8d3f697817f775cf383ed3/1552760682466/0*obsS79k7ggX_yXog..jpeg?format=2500w

    I think the author, a woman, is trying to make some sort of feminist statement by contrasting these pictures, but honestly, seeing the grim, stern proletarian faces next to joyous, relaxed bourgeois women, it has the opposite effect on me.

    https://static1.squarespace.com/static/587cf305f7e0ab6a702dfdaa/5c8d3f3c4785d35a3b3acfc4/5c8d3f3deb393146785c6d67/1552760638017/0*C2QQJW_IVrvFxog8..jpeg?format=1000w

    https://static1.squarespace.com/static/587cf305f7e0ab6a702dfdaa/5c8d3f3c4785d35a3b3acfc4/5c8d3f3ce5e5f05150047191/1552760637488/0*725fYT8ahLnBZupb..jpeg?format=1000w

    https://static1.squarespace.com/static/587cf305f7e0ab6a702dfdaa/5c8d3f15ee6eb07b49ce6193/5c8d3f15f4e1fca5435edbd2/1552760598755/0*_qTEJFrU-nnbA1nz..jpeg?format=1000w

    https://static1.squarespace.com/static/587cf305f7e0ab6a702dfdaa/5c8d3f15ee6eb07b49ce6193/5c8d3f15ec212d73477feedc/1552760598434/0*-vqZ7t113EGCx_VL..jpeg?format=2500w

    Replies: @WHAT, @Mr. Hack

    Well, the first one is a sensible tactical advice on wedge formations, I kid you not.

  58. German manufacturing PMI comes in at just 44.7. The global economic slowdown continues, China and the Eurozone bearing the brunt.

    I forecast a no deal Brexit shortly further hitting the Eurozone.

  59. @Thorfinnsson
    @Gerard2

    …and what stopped them from concentrating on defeating the British in North Africa by way of not conducting Barbarossa? Thus saving valuable resources and military power being sent east – particularly with the Italian forces at an early stage in North Africa proving to be not so successful.
     

    Logistics are the largest reason. Prior to Operation Sonnenblume, the Germans determined the largest force that could be fielded in North Africa and supplied from Italy was just four divisions (compare to the Eastern Front).

    That is not the sole reason of course, as even this Hitler refused to send. The Italians after the war accused Hitler of having a purely "continental" strategic view. Erich Raeder, commander of the Kriegsmarine, suggested taking Gibraltar (with or without Franco's consent) and expanding into the Mediterranean.

    The German airborne invasion of Crete, while a success, perhaps in a way doomed the small Afrika Korps that Hitler did authorize. Owing to the huge losses at Crete, the Germans chose to cancel the planned invasion of Malta (Operation Hercules). Malta in turn aided the British in interdicting Italian supply convoys to Africa.

    German and Italian troops in Africa always suffered extreme shortages and relied heavily on captured equipment (by the time of 1st El Alamein over 80% of Rommel's truck park was captured British vehicles). The situation was so bad that Axis troops in Africa even suffered from nutritional deficiencies and were jaundiced.

    The Shah of Iran had come out of support for the Nazis, M-R pact – surely all this secured them a steady oil supply for the short-medium term?
     

    Sort of. He simply declared neutrality and refused to expel German railwaymen and other technical specialists. Iran also reduced its trade with Germany at the request of the British.

    His actions were considered insufficient, and given the importance of Iran to Britain and the USSR the hapless country was invaded and occupied.

    In any case owing to the Royal Navy there was no way to ship Iranian oil to Germany. In theory Iranian oil could've been shipped overland through Turkey, but the British could've seized Iran (or just the oilfields) long before any such infrastructure could be built.

    If you are saying that the Kriegsmarine were so outmatched by the British that they were going to get smashed in the Mediterranean sea ( thus making land /air combat in North Africa redundant) then surely you could argue that Wehrmacht combined could have turned the situation by spoiler tactics- engaging the British to such an extent -hurting their oil infrastructure in North Africa, hitting naval oil routes back to Britain – that some treaty over the oil states would have been reached? North Africa was the British Empire’s biggest source of oil.
     

    The Kriegsmarine did not even have the ability to enter the Mediterranean Sea because the British controlled Gibraltar and Suez. They were able to infiltrate some U-boats.

    The Regia Marina was a fairly large force, but it did not have the same high standards as the British. It also suffered from chronic shortages of fuel and thus often was not able to sortie.

    There was no oil in North Africa then (it had not yet been discovered), and since Italy's entry into the war convoys from the east had already been routed around the Cape of Good Hope rather than through the Mediterranean.

    An Axis victory in the Western Desert Campaign was in my view possible, but then what? Britain would be excluded from the Mediterranean...but still undefeated. Presumably Axis forces could've gone onto Iran, which was Britain's major source of oil (British Petroleum was originally known as Anglo-Persian), but Britain could also import oil from the rest of the world.

    Let’s not forget that Britain never once entered Poland in WW2, defeating an enemy (positioned 30 km away through the Eenglish Channel) by first defeating them in North Africa, then going through Italy via the south, THEN belatedly going through northern France ( as the Soviets start liberating Europe) is practically an unheard of method of victory in war – very successful in this instance…but one in which if the Nazi’s had known this as if psychic- they would probably have thought that “North Africa – Italy – then France” method creates a series of “fail-safes” in strategy for the Nazis from they would have been very confident of not losing the war
     

    The British did draw up plans to invade Soviet-occupied Eastern Europe in 1945 in order to liberate Poland, but the plan was not carried out for reasons of sanity. The planners clearly had a sense of humor as the plan was named Operation Unthinkable.

    As a seapower on the edge of Europe with limited amounts of manpower Britain traditionally exerted itself on the continent through its navy and commercial power. It did field a respectable army, but it was never large and always fought in coalition. After the 100 Years War the only time Britain ever fielded a massive army in Europe for many years in a row was in WW1.

    British strategy against Germany was fixed in 1936 to focus on strategic bombing. It was in 1936 that the Air Ministry issued Specification P.13/36 for a "worldwide bomber". This ultimately led to the Avro Lancaster, superior to the American B-17 and B-24. In order to mollify the French, the Chamberlain government also agreed to send a small expeditionary force (the BEF) to the Continent again as in 1914.

    The Anglo-French plan was to stay on the defensive while strangling Germany with economic warfare. They would then use their superior resources (Britain and France had a GDP 60% larger than Germany and Italy) to eventually overwhelm Germany. This was in effect what had worked in WW1, and the defensive mindset was common to a generation of leaders who had cut their teeth fighting the exceptionally skilled German army and had no desire to repeat the horrors of the Somme and Verdun.

    Yes, obviously this meant that they never intended to lift a finger for Poland. Too bad for the idiot Poles for being duped by the West.

    Unfortunately for their clever plan, the French were unexpectedly completely defeated. In fact, while the Entente expected Poland's defeat, they also thought Poland would hold out for three months rather than three weeks.

    The British were still focused on their strategic bombing plan (which ultimately developed into a terrifying weapon), but were forced to improvise. As German_reader pointed out, obviously the British alone invading Europe (right after losing all their army's heavy equipment) to face the entire German army was suicidal.

    In fact the British never wanted to invade Europe again at all after the Fall of France except in peripheral actions meant to advance postwar British strategic interests. They had to be dragooned into invading Europe by America, which was more eager to fight and had superior resources.

    In fairness to the British their strategic bombing plan was sound as demonstrated by the Battle of the Ruhr.

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson, @LondonBob, @Gerard2

    An invasion of France in ’43 would have been disastrous. We had the benefit of experience from Dieppe to know how risky it was. Had the Panzers deployed sooner the actual invasion in ’44 might have similarly ended in disaster.

  60. @Gerard2
    @Thorfinnsson

    ...and what stopped them from concentrating on defeating the British in North Africa by way of not conducting Barbarossa? Thus saving valuable resources and military power being sent east - particularly with the Italian forces at an early stage in North Africa proving to be not so successful.
    The Shah of Iran had come out of support for the Nazis, M-R pact - surely all this secured them a steady oil supply for the short-medium term?

    If you are saying that the Kriegsmarine were so outmatched by the British that they were going to get smashed in the Mediterranean sea ( thus making land /air combat in North Africa redundant) then surely you could argue that Wehrmacht combined could have turned the situation by spoiler tactics- engaging the British to such an extent -hurting their oil infrastructure in North Africa, hitting naval oil routes back to Britain - that some treaty over the oil states would have been reached? North Africa was the British Empire's biggest source of oil.



    Let's not forget that Britain never once entered Poland in WW2, defeating an enemy (positioned 30 km away through the Eenglish Channel) by first defeating them in North Africa, then going through Italy via the south, THEN belatedly going through northern France ( as the Soviets start liberating Europe) is practically an unheard of method of victory in war - very successful in this instance...but one in which if the Nazi's had known this as if psychic- they would probably have thought that "North Africa - Italy - then France" method creates a series of "fail-safes" in strategy for the Nazis from they would have been very confident of not losing the war

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson, @Gerard2

    Thanks for that…. very interesting.Basic and lazy errors about oil from myself there – my apologies!

  61. @Mikhail
    The latest from a once time multiple guest on RT: https://www.counterpunch.org/2019/03/21/on-ilhan-omar-assad-fetishism-and-the-danger-of-red-brown-anti-imperialism/

    Harassment? https://www.rt.com/sport/454388-zagitova-doping-control-world-championship/

    Hate mongering journalism: https://www.rferl.org/a/cold-war-on-ice-how-czechoslovakia-hockey-team-beat-soviets/29832512.html

    Highly suspect that the featured Boris Mikhailov wasn't asked about the claim made (by one of his Czech opponents in the above linked video) that he played dirty. No note on the many modern day Czechs and Slovaks who've played in Russia, inclusive of the best Czech player ever - the not so distantly retired Jaromir Jagr, who doesn't stereotype Russia/Russians, while opposing the 1968 Soviet led intervention of his country. The late Ivan Hlinka, who coached the Olympic gold medal winning men's Czech ice hockey team in 1998, went on to coach in Russia.

    Replies: @Anon

    RFE/RL is a Russophobic cesspool paid by the US government.

    • Replies: @Mikhail
    @Anon

    Noticeably anti-Serb as well.

    Shifting gears, for you auto buffs:

    https://www.twelfthroundauto.com/best-motor-oil/

    https://www.youtube.com/user/scottykilmer

    Scotty is hilarious.

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson

  62. @Anonymous
    @Dmitry

    I think Trump is playing brilliant politics here, and I am no fanboy of his. Democrats are becoming more critical of Israel, but it is still a wedge issue for them, at this time probably the most salient and divisive one. Probably the majority of Democratic voters have a generally neutral-to-negative view of Israel, and now the more strident anti-Zionists (typically younger voters and non-whites) have a voice in Congress with Reps. Omar and Tlaib. But the Dem establishment (embodied in Pelosi and Schumer) is still strongly pro-Israel, and Jewish donors are still a major (really, the major) source of fundraising for establishment Dems.

    This is combustible on many levels: to criticize Omar and Tlaib as a Dem is to open oneself up to allegations of sexism, racism, xenophobia and Islamophobia, which can be lethal to one's career. To support or even tolerate them is to risk alienating Jewish money. All this occurs against the backdrop of Israel taking an increasingly hard line on the settlements and the question of identity, especially if Bibi is re-elected. And Omar and Tlaib, far from being fringe back-benchers, are hip and popular; along with AOC, they have possession of the souls of the young and non-white voters that the Dems are utterly dependent on.

    The Democrats are totally schizophrenic on this issue, and Trump knows it. So he will continually try to up the ante, to push any kind of pro-Israel legislation he can think of, to goad Omar and Tlaib into making more brash statements and to goad the Dems into voting against Israel. He hopes that there will be more intra-party struggle sessions and that they waste time drafting resolutions against each other. And then, come 2020, he will run ads in Florida marketed towards elderly Jews positioning himself as the greatest Zionist since Ben-Gurion. Trump is a piss-poor legislator but he is brilliant in PR.

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @reiner Tor, @neutral, @Hyperborean, @Dmitry

    He is also supporting and endless stream of non whites entering America (whether they are legal or illegal the end result is the same), which means Democrats win. He lied to his base, he is a fraud and also a moron politically. He cared more about what happens to faraway Israel instead of whites being persecuted in the land he is officially supposed to represent.

  63. @songbird
    @Hyperborean

    A lot of the "real" Arabs seem to have somewhat tenuous demographics. Not exactly collapsing TFR, but just copious amounts of foreign workers, many of them subcon or Indonesian Muslims who can claim being brothers in Islam. Then there are all the "natives" with heavy African ancestry from Zanj days, (in Iraq, 500,000) as well as those recently arrived Africans who are desperate even to cross into Yemen.

    Their political system is mainly constructed from big men writing checks. Perhaps, tribal politics makes it unlikely that they will write those big checks to Africans and Pakis. They don't seem to suffer from one-worldism, as the foreign laborers are generally treated like helots and often sex-segregated.

    BTW, Trump is calling for the Golan Heights to be recognized as part of Israel. No wonder he is on Israeli campaign posters! Is there any real difference between him and Bibi?

    Replies: @Dmitry, @Hyperborean

    Their political system is mainly constructed from big men writing checks. Perhaps, tribal politics makes it unlikely that they will write those big checks to Africans and Pakis. They don’t seem to suffer from one-worldism, as the foreign laborers are generally treated like helots and often sex-segregated.

    The many of smaller Gulf states are like 70-90% non-core population, granted some of that will be expats, who while not exactly favourable to the native Arabs won’t be hostile.

    I don’t think anything serious will happen as long as the KSA has the power to intervene, but if Saudi Arabia gets embroiled in domestic troubles, things might get interesting.

    Even if a gastarbeiter revolt is crushed, given that the Gulf Arabs haven’t worked for generations, the small countries would face a lot of economic instability.

    An amusing anecdote about Arab hypocrisy (beyond the anal sex that is): One of my elder brothers, who works for a large corporation, was stationed in Qatar and he told me that in order to access deviant beverages forbidden to natives some Arab men would discard their Bedouin dress and put on suits and then walk into establishments that are allowed to serve alcohol to foreigners.

    • Replies: @LondonBob
    @Hyperborean

    Obesity is the issue to look out for, the ones I see around Knightsbridge are enormous and gorge themselves on cakes whilst avoiding any form of exercise.

  64. @Hyperborean
    @songbird


    Their political system is mainly constructed from big men writing checks. Perhaps, tribal politics makes it unlikely that they will write those big checks to Africans and Pakis. They don’t seem to suffer from one-worldism, as the foreign laborers are generally treated like helots and often sex-segregated.
     
    The many of smaller Gulf states are like 70-90% non-core population, granted some of that will be expats, who while not exactly favourable to the native Arabs won't be hostile.

    I don't think anything serious will happen as long as the KSA has the power to intervene, but if Saudi Arabia gets embroiled in domestic troubles, things might get interesting.

    Even if a gastarbeiter revolt is crushed, given that the Gulf Arabs haven't worked for generations, the small countries would face a lot of economic instability.

    An amusing anecdote about Arab hypocrisy (beyond the anal sex that is): One of my elder brothers, who works for a large corporation, was stationed in Qatar and he told me that in order to access deviant beverages forbidden to natives some Arab men would discard their Bedouin dress and put on suits and then walk into establishments that are allowed to serve alcohol to foreigners.

    Replies: @LondonBob

    Obesity is the issue to look out for, the ones I see around Knightsbridge are enormous and gorge themselves on cakes whilst avoiding any form of exercise.

  65. @Anonymous
    @Dmitry

    I think Trump is playing brilliant politics here, and I am no fanboy of his. Democrats are becoming more critical of Israel, but it is still a wedge issue for them, at this time probably the most salient and divisive one. Probably the majority of Democratic voters have a generally neutral-to-negative view of Israel, and now the more strident anti-Zionists (typically younger voters and non-whites) have a voice in Congress with Reps. Omar and Tlaib. But the Dem establishment (embodied in Pelosi and Schumer) is still strongly pro-Israel, and Jewish donors are still a major (really, the major) source of fundraising for establishment Dems.

    This is combustible on many levels: to criticize Omar and Tlaib as a Dem is to open oneself up to allegations of sexism, racism, xenophobia and Islamophobia, which can be lethal to one's career. To support or even tolerate them is to risk alienating Jewish money. All this occurs against the backdrop of Israel taking an increasingly hard line on the settlements and the question of identity, especially if Bibi is re-elected. And Omar and Tlaib, far from being fringe back-benchers, are hip and popular; along with AOC, they have possession of the souls of the young and non-white voters that the Dems are utterly dependent on.

    The Democrats are totally schizophrenic on this issue, and Trump knows it. So he will continually try to up the ante, to push any kind of pro-Israel legislation he can think of, to goad Omar and Tlaib into making more brash statements and to goad the Dems into voting against Israel. He hopes that there will be more intra-party struggle sessions and that they waste time drafting resolutions against each other. And then, come 2020, he will run ads in Florida marketed towards elderly Jews positioning himself as the greatest Zionist since Ben-Gurion. Trump is a piss-poor legislator but he is brilliant in PR.

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @reiner Tor, @neutral, @Hyperborean, @Dmitry

    And then, come 2020, he will run ads in Florida marketed towards elderly Jews positioning himself as the greatest Zionist since Ben-Gurion. Trump is a piss-poor legislator but he is brilliant in PR.

    Trump’s actions are consistent with decades of support for Israel.

  66. @Dmitry
    @songbird


    Trump is calling for the Golan Heights

     

    Unless later Democrat presidents will reverse it, Trump is giving - or trying to give - all the most serious possible victories to Israel.

    Probably in order of significance.
    1. Trying to recognize Israel's annexation of Golan Heights, which is rebelling against all previous US governments, and all international consensus. (Golan Heights is perhaps more militarily significant for Israel, than Crimea for Russia).
    2. Leaving Iran nuclear deal (this results in economic sanctions which limit Iran's expansion).
    3. Moving embassy to Jerusalem.

    -

    However, Israel becomes now a partisan topic in American politics, and is associated with Trump.

    This will contribute to future instability in US attitude to Israel, as Republican become more pro-Israel, and Democrats more anti-Israel, every year. Over a century, amount of time America has Republican presidents and Democrat presidents will be approximately equal - so as a partisan topic, Israel will only be supported so strongly, half of the time.

    Nonetheless, a country like Ukraine would be very happy if it would become even noticed enough to be a slightly partisan topic in American politics.


    Is there any real difference between him and Bibi?
     
    Netanyahu is less of an Israel partisan - he tried to return the Golan Heights to Syria more than one time.

    Replies: @Dmitry, @Anonymous, @for-the-record

    Over a century, amount of time America has Republican presidents and Democrat presidents will be approximately equal

    Not over the next century, I would hazard to predict. But I think your basic point is valid, as its demographic base changes the Democratic Party will be less pro-Israel in the future.

  67. @reiner Tor
    @Anonymous

    Orbán also seems to consider this strategy: trying to get the Israeli Jews on his side. It might work, though as the Israeli tirade against Poland shows, it’s not an easy thing to pull off.

    Replies: @for-the-record, @Anonymous

    Orbán also seems to consider this strategy: trying to get the Israeli Jews on his side

    On the other hand (hope you have deep pockets):

    DC court says Holocaust survivors can sue Hungary in the US for huge reparations

    The second-highest court in the United States has reinstated a lawsuit brought by a group of Holocaust survivors and their families against the government of Hungary and its national railroad. The class action suit demands restitution for the role Hungary played in the murder of 500,000 Jews and the seizure of their property during World War II.

    Setting the stage for what could be a landmark civil suit running into the tens of billions of dollars, Judge Patricia A. Millett wrote for the US Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit on December 28 that Hungary could not force the plaintiffs to have the case tried in a Hungarian court.

    The decision overturned that of a federal judge who ruled that the 1947 Paris Peace Treaty between Hungary and the Allied powers granted Hungary immunity. . .

    Over the past 20 years, the Hungarian government has made a pretense of allowing Hungarian Holocaust victims to file claims for their losses, said Zell, but he called the payouts “tantamount to a joke.”

    . . . Zell said that the case against the Hungarian government and the national railway, Magyar Allamvasutak, could see a significant financial claim filed on behalf of Jewish Holocaust survivors.

    “We didn’t put a number in this case, but if it goes forward we’ll be asking for tens of billions of dollars of compensation, which is the amount that would be owed based on the value of the property that was taken at the time of the deportations to the camps,” said Zell. . .

    If the case makes it all the way to a final judgment, the plaintiffs would likely seek satisfaction from Hungarian assets in the US or elsewhere, said Zell.

    https://www.timesofisrael.com/dc-court-says-holocaust-survivors-can-sue-hungary-in-the-us-for-huge-reparations/

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @for-the-record

    This court case has been going on for at least five (or maybe ten?) years now. It has been thrown out of court at least once, though it's probably the furthest it has ever come.

    The case itself seems to be, on the face of it, quite ridiculous: they are suing the Hungarian State Railways for its role in the holocaust. I mean, it's not like the state railways company was in any position to make decisions or anything. Regarding the Hungarian government. It's not like Hungary (whose lawful prime minister had to hide in the Turkish embassy, and then was arrested by the Germans and sent to Mauthausen) was in any position to resist the Germans. Regarding the lost property: all Hungarian citizens lost all or most of their property between 1944 and 1961 (the final collectivization), and they didn't regain any of it. Regarding the amount demanded: sure, it's like present-day Hungarians (the oldest of whom were all very young in 1944) should pay a year of their GDP to a few hundred or thousand survivors, or the descendants of the survivors (who arguably didn't suffer anything - they were born after the thing happened...)

    If the goal was to increase anti-Semitism, then sure, dude.

    Replies: @for-the-record

  68. @AP
    @Mr. Hack

    Thorfinnson once posted the link to this good essay about that:

    https://www.uio.no/studier/emner/hf/iakh/HIS1300MET/v12/undervisningsmateriale/Fussel%20-%20thank%20god%20for%20the%20atom%20bomb.pdf

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    It’s indeed an interesting essay that presents a good, balanced view of the complex motives that precipitated the dropping of two A-bombs over Japan. It frames the question of the morality of the decision, in the eyes of those opposed to it quite accurately:

    that those for whom he use of the A-bomb was “wrong” seem to be implying “that it would have been better to allow thousands on thousands of American and Japanese infantrymen to die in honest hand-to-hand combat on the beaches than to drop those two bombs.”

    Also, throughout the piece the author emphasizes that it’s easier to make judgements after the fact , than to be on the ground fighting a ferocious war faced with pragmatic considerations.

    For me, the overriding factor is indeed that so many civilians were wasted. Soldiers are by design created to fight wars, civilians are not. This is one of the reasons, I suppose that you are so adamantly opposed to the wasting of Polish civilians in Volhynia by bloodthirsty UPA troops? The principle is the same, only the scope of casualties is so very much larger. Who had the moral authority to shift the soldier’s responsibility over to an unwary civilian population?

    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
    @Mr. Hack

    1. The soldier/civilian dichotomy is less than absolute when most of the soldiers are conscripts.

    2. It is very reasonable for states to value the lives of their own citizens over those of foreigners (especially when said foreigners initiated the hostilities against them).

    , @Thorfinnsson
    @Mr. Hack

    Civilians fight wars through economic activity which sustains military forces in the field. Their morale also maintains the government which issues orders to said military forces, and the Japanese government in the summer of 1945 was actually quite concerned about this. Hence the Anglo-American strategic bombing doctrine.

    Debates over the morality of the American decision to nuke Japan strike me as extremely silly considering that America (and Britain) had already been carpet bombing Axis civilians (and even non-Axis civilians) for years. The Anglo-Americans also imposed naval blockades on the Axis (and the WW1 Central Powers), including on food and medicine.

    Frankly, dying from an atomic bomb strikes me as greatly preferable from being burned alive by fire bombing. Operation Meetinghouse, the fire bombing of Tokyo, immolated 100,000 people. What the Anglo-Americans did to Dresden is of course well known.

    As such I am forced to conclude that the real motive for decrying the usage of the atomic bombs is atomophobia. These faux humanitarians rarely have issues with incendiary and high explosive bombs.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    , @DFH
    @Mr. Hack


    The principle is the same, only the scope of casualties is so very much larger.
     
    It's not similar at all: the atomic bombs were dropped out of military necessity (I realise people dispute this), massacring 100,000 Polish civilians was because of Ukranian nationalist fantasism and bloodlust

    Replies: @AP

  69. @Mr. Hack
    @AP

    It's indeed an interesting essay that presents a good, balanced view of the complex motives that precipitated the dropping of two A-bombs over Japan. It frames the question of the morality of the decision, in the eyes of those opposed to it quite accurately:


    that those for whom he use of the A-bomb was “wrong” seem to be implying “that it would have been better to allow thousands on thousands of American and Japanese infantrymen to die in honest hand-to-hand combat on the beaches than to drop those two bombs.”
     
    Also, throughout the piece the author emphasizes that it's easier to make judgements after the fact , than to be on the ground fighting a ferocious war faced with pragmatic considerations.

    For me, the overriding factor is indeed that so many civilians were wasted. Soldiers are by design created to fight wars, civilians are not. This is one of the reasons, I suppose that you are so adamantly opposed to the wasting of Polish civilians in Volhynia by bloodthirsty UPA troops? The principle is the same, only the scope of casualties is so very much larger. Who had the moral authority to shift the soldier's responsibility over to an unwary civilian population?

    Replies: @Anatoly Karlin, @Thorfinnsson, @DFH

    1. The soldier/civilian dichotomy is less than absolute when most of the soldiers are conscripts.

    2. It is very reasonable for states to value the lives of their own citizens over those of foreigners (especially when said foreigners initiated the hostilities against them).

  70. @Mr. Hack
    @AP

    It's indeed an interesting essay that presents a good, balanced view of the complex motives that precipitated the dropping of two A-bombs over Japan. It frames the question of the morality of the decision, in the eyes of those opposed to it quite accurately:


    that those for whom he use of the A-bomb was “wrong” seem to be implying “that it would have been better to allow thousands on thousands of American and Japanese infantrymen to die in honest hand-to-hand combat on the beaches than to drop those two bombs.”
     
    Also, throughout the piece the author emphasizes that it's easier to make judgements after the fact , than to be on the ground fighting a ferocious war faced with pragmatic considerations.

    For me, the overriding factor is indeed that so many civilians were wasted. Soldiers are by design created to fight wars, civilians are not. This is one of the reasons, I suppose that you are so adamantly opposed to the wasting of Polish civilians in Volhynia by bloodthirsty UPA troops? The principle is the same, only the scope of casualties is so very much larger. Who had the moral authority to shift the soldier's responsibility over to an unwary civilian population?

    Replies: @Anatoly Karlin, @Thorfinnsson, @DFH

    Civilians fight wars through economic activity which sustains military forces in the field. Their morale also maintains the government which issues orders to said military forces, and the Japanese government in the summer of 1945 was actually quite concerned about this. Hence the Anglo-American strategic bombing doctrine.

    Debates over the morality of the American decision to nuke Japan strike me as extremely silly considering that America (and Britain) had already been carpet bombing Axis civilians (and even non-Axis civilians) for years. The Anglo-Americans also imposed naval blockades on the Axis (and the WW1 Central Powers), including on food and medicine.

    Frankly, dying from an atomic bomb strikes me as greatly preferable from being burned alive by fire bombing. Operation Meetinghouse, the fire bombing of Tokyo, immolated 100,000 people. What the Anglo-Americans did to Dresden is of course well known.

    As such I am forced to conclude that the real motive for decrying the usage of the atomic bombs is atomophobia. These faux humanitarians rarely have issues with incendiary and high explosive bombs.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @Thorfinnsson


    Civilians fight wars through economic activity which sustains military forces in the field.
     
    You make a good point here. If I remember correctly from my college history courses, civilians weren't regularly targeted during wartime until the 20th century? I realize that I'm being naive to hope that wartime activities could be curtailed to resemble those of medieval times, when it was almost a 9 -5 job, with weekends and holidays off (without pay?).

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson

  71. @Mr. Hack
    @AP

    It's indeed an interesting essay that presents a good, balanced view of the complex motives that precipitated the dropping of two A-bombs over Japan. It frames the question of the morality of the decision, in the eyes of those opposed to it quite accurately:


    that those for whom he use of the A-bomb was “wrong” seem to be implying “that it would have been better to allow thousands on thousands of American and Japanese infantrymen to die in honest hand-to-hand combat on the beaches than to drop those two bombs.”
     
    Also, throughout the piece the author emphasizes that it's easier to make judgements after the fact , than to be on the ground fighting a ferocious war faced with pragmatic considerations.

    For me, the overriding factor is indeed that so many civilians were wasted. Soldiers are by design created to fight wars, civilians are not. This is one of the reasons, I suppose that you are so adamantly opposed to the wasting of Polish civilians in Volhynia by bloodthirsty UPA troops? The principle is the same, only the scope of casualties is so very much larger. Who had the moral authority to shift the soldier's responsibility over to an unwary civilian population?

    Replies: @Anatoly Karlin, @Thorfinnsson, @DFH

    The principle is the same, only the scope of casualties is so very much larger.

    It’s not similar at all: the atomic bombs were dropped out of military necessity (I realise people dispute this), massacring 100,000 Polish civilians was because of Ukranian nationalist fantasism and bloodlust

    • Replies: @AP
    @DFH


    massacring 100,000 Polish civilians was because of Ukranian nationalist fantasism and bloodlust
     
    It was an evil crime but its reason was no worse than that of Hiroshima. Poland occupied those lands planned to get them back after the war. It also planned to ethnically cleanse them, of Ukrainians (at least,m the local Polish organization wanted this done). UPA took the initiative and ethnically cleansed them first, while they had the chance. They did not have bombers and atom weapons, they had peasants with crude weapons. But they were fighting for their lands, on their native soil, not bombing people thousands of miles away from their native lands. I do not justify what they did, but it wasn't any worse than Anglo-American deliberate targeting and bombing of German or Japanese civilians.

    Replies: @utu, @DFH, @Matra, @Denis

  72. @Thorfinnsson
    @Mr. Hack

    Civilians fight wars through economic activity which sustains military forces in the field. Their morale also maintains the government which issues orders to said military forces, and the Japanese government in the summer of 1945 was actually quite concerned about this. Hence the Anglo-American strategic bombing doctrine.

    Debates over the morality of the American decision to nuke Japan strike me as extremely silly considering that America (and Britain) had already been carpet bombing Axis civilians (and even non-Axis civilians) for years. The Anglo-Americans also imposed naval blockades on the Axis (and the WW1 Central Powers), including on food and medicine.

    Frankly, dying from an atomic bomb strikes me as greatly preferable from being burned alive by fire bombing. Operation Meetinghouse, the fire bombing of Tokyo, immolated 100,000 people. What the Anglo-Americans did to Dresden is of course well known.

    As such I am forced to conclude that the real motive for decrying the usage of the atomic bombs is atomophobia. These faux humanitarians rarely have issues with incendiary and high explosive bombs.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    Civilians fight wars through economic activity which sustains military forces in the field.

    You make a good point here. If I remember correctly from my college history courses, civilians weren’t regularly targeted during wartime until the 20th century? I realize that I’m being naive to hope that wartime activities could be curtailed to resemble those of medieval times, when it was almost a 9 -5 job, with weekends and holidays off (without pay?).

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    @Mr. Hack

    Civilians have been routinely targeted in warfare since warfare has existed. The earliest "wars", between tribes of hunter-gatherers, had the aim of killing off the other tribe's men in order to seize all their women and hunting lands. The development of agriculture made the men useful as slaves and spared their lives, at least the younger ones.

    There have been at various times wars and rules of wars which make efforts to spare civilians, and there have been wars in which targeting civilians do not make military sense (owing to rapid military victory in the field).

    Common civilizations historically have developed rules of war and fought many wars over "honor" in which these rules were generally respected. Classical Greece, Medieval Europe, Europe from 1648-1914, etc. The rules tend to crumble in long, bitter conflicts (see the American Civil War). They also aren't observed by outsiders, which was a chronic problem Christians faced when attacked by Vikings (who wouldn't follow rules like allowing enemy forces an unmolested river crossing) or when anyone faced the Mongols.

    What really changed in the 20th century was the development of airpower. You can be sure that someone like General Sherman would've been thrilled to carpet bomb civilians had he possessed an air force.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan, @German_reader

  73. @Hyperborean
    Regarding the visual arts in Russia:

    I don't really like the modern and geometric style, but at least this one is easily comprehensible.

    https://static1.squarespace.com/static/587cf305f7e0ab6a702dfdaa/t/5c8cf5158165f56352703666/1552741665862/0*Qot-zRE87HYG_jvb..jpeg?format=2500w

    But what are these supposed to represent? I honestly have no clue. If there is no purpose then what is the point?

    https://static1.squarespace.com/static/587cf305f7e0ab6a702dfdaa/5c8d3f69fa0d605b84e24c4b/5c8d3f6f53450a39cc0bae69/1552760688368/0*-z_3rMXKD-LVFtrx..jpeg?format=2500w

    https://static1.squarespace.com/static/587cf305f7e0ab6a702dfdaa/5c8d3f69fa0d605b84e24c4b/5c8d3f697817f775cf383ed3/1552760682466/0*obsS79k7ggX_yXog..jpeg?format=2500w

    I think the author, a woman, is trying to make some sort of feminist statement by contrasting these pictures, but honestly, seeing the grim, stern proletarian faces next to joyous, relaxed bourgeois women, it has the opposite effect on me.

    https://static1.squarespace.com/static/587cf305f7e0ab6a702dfdaa/5c8d3f3c4785d35a3b3acfc4/5c8d3f3deb393146785c6d67/1552760638017/0*C2QQJW_IVrvFxog8..jpeg?format=1000w

    https://static1.squarespace.com/static/587cf305f7e0ab6a702dfdaa/5c8d3f3c4785d35a3b3acfc4/5c8d3f3ce5e5f05150047191/1552760637488/0*725fYT8ahLnBZupb..jpeg?format=1000w

    https://static1.squarespace.com/static/587cf305f7e0ab6a702dfdaa/5c8d3f15ee6eb07b49ce6193/5c8d3f15f4e1fca5435edbd2/1552760598755/0*_qTEJFrU-nnbA1nz..jpeg?format=1000w

    https://static1.squarespace.com/static/587cf305f7e0ab6a702dfdaa/5c8d3f15ee6eb07b49ce6193/5c8d3f15ec212d73477feedc/1552760598434/0*-vqZ7t113EGCx_VL..jpeg?format=2500w

    Replies: @WHAT, @Mr. Hack

    The Leokrem add works for me – more Vitamin D please. 🙂

  74. @Mr. Hack
    @Thorfinnsson


    Civilians fight wars through economic activity which sustains military forces in the field.
     
    You make a good point here. If I remember correctly from my college history courses, civilians weren't regularly targeted during wartime until the 20th century? I realize that I'm being naive to hope that wartime activities could be curtailed to resemble those of medieval times, when it was almost a 9 -5 job, with weekends and holidays off (without pay?).

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson

    Civilians have been routinely targeted in warfare since warfare has existed. The earliest “wars”, between tribes of hunter-gatherers, had the aim of killing off the other tribe’s men in order to seize all their women and hunting lands. The development of agriculture made the men useful as slaves and spared their lives, at least the younger ones.

    There have been at various times wars and rules of wars which make efforts to spare civilians, and there have been wars in which targeting civilians do not make military sense (owing to rapid military victory in the field).

    Common civilizations historically have developed rules of war and fought many wars over “honor” in which these rules were generally respected. Classical Greece, Medieval Europe, Europe from 1648-1914, etc. The rules tend to crumble in long, bitter conflicts (see the American Civil War). They also aren’t observed by outsiders, which was a chronic problem Christians faced when attacked by Vikings (who wouldn’t follow rules like allowing enemy forces an unmolested river crossing) or when anyone faced the Mongols.

    What really changed in the 20th century was the development of airpower. You can be sure that someone like General Sherman would’ve been thrilled to carpet bomb civilians had he possessed an air force.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @Thorfinnsson

    You're obviously correct about the inclusion of civilian casualties during ancient times. What I had in mind were the 'rules of war' that you allude to, most likely primarily developed in Europe, which I only half sarcastically describe in my description of war during medieval times.

    , @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan
    @Thorfinnsson

    Sherman's record is a bit ambiguous, in fact. His conception of "hard war" was different from "total war."

    Joseph T. Glatthaar's book 'The March to the Sea and Beyond' is a good one to read. In it, we learn that Joseph Wheeler's Confederate cavalry, who did not draw any rations from the CSA government from early 1864 until the war's end, lived off the Georgia countryside more thoroughly than most of Sherman's troops.

    Most Georgia hamlets that got burned were burned because someone shot at the army from a barn or something. And North Carolina got off fairly easy, due to having been the last state to secede.

    The march's infamous reputation in Georgia was actually merited, probably, only in South Carolina; many of the Union men cursed SC for starting the long war and so let their inhibitions drop.

    In Columbia, SC, Sherman's officers posted guards to protect buildings, but the drunken soldiers simply overwhelmed them with numbers of "firebugs" who threw torches into the homes.

    Even some Southerners, though, admitted that many local civilians - of both races, interestingly! - willingly sold whiskey to the passing soldiers, which exacerbated their rage.

    Of course, even then, all of this has nothing in comparison to the average war in the Balkans.

    Among Union generals, Sheridan and Custer were far harsher in the Shenandoah Valley in 1864 than Sherman ever was. Sherman genuinely seems to have liked Southerners, apart from politics; Braxton Bragg was a close friend, and Joseph Johnston was a pall-bearer at Sherman's funeral. But Sheridan (whom I hate) and Custer would have both liked carpet bombing the Southern civilians. Sheridan and Custer's burning of the valley also inspired the totally ruthless Confederate cavalry raid on Chambersburg, PA, which resulted in the burning of the entire town except, oddly enough, the local Masonic temple.

    (By the way, the favorite hobby of Confederates invading Pennsylvania and Maryland was to capture local blacks and sell them into slavery - nice little throwback to the ancient days, eh? When they tried this in Greencastle, PA in 1863, a mob of local farmers attacked the rebels and freed the Union prisoners and 10 or 20 blacks they were driving through town.)

    Know who else would have liked carpet bombing? Stonewall Jackson. Jackson's been called the 'Southern Cromwell' for good reason.

    Replies: @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan, @Thorfinnsson, @reiner Tor, @LondonBob

    , @German_reader
    @Thorfinnsson


    General Sherman would’ve been thrilled to carpet bomb civilians had he possessed an air force.
     
    iirc Sherman's orders during his campaign in the American South were mostly aimed at destroying property like plantations, railway stock etc. The number of civilians killed by his forces wasn't that high.

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson

  75. @German_reader
    @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan


    Ron Unz gave us a good starting point from where we can wander into asking what might have been if a bunch of Limey spies and Roosevelt hadn’t attacked our formerly peaceful country
     
    Nazi Germany could have become potentially quite dangerous to the US if it had successfully conquered Eurasia. It did have fairly advanced technology by the standards of the time after all, especially in rocket development. I guess it comes down to the question whether Hitler's ambitions were limited to Europe or global, at least in the long term.
    Another crucial question of course is whether Germany could ever have decisively defeated the Soviet Union and occupied all of European Russia. I doubt it, Operation Barbarossa was total hubris and the German plans had failed even in their modified form by late 1942/early 1943, and that was before America decisively entered the war in North Africa and Europe, and iirc also before most of the Western lend-lease shipments to the Soviet Union. But I suppose there might have been some sort of extended stalemate.
    But in any case, Roosevelt's actions turned the US into the dominant world power, at the cost of the lowest casualties of all combatant powers. So the criticism of him by US paleoconservatives always seems rather exaggerated to me.

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson, @Hyperborean, @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan, @Konstantin

    I don’t believe that our being the dominant world power has made us any better as a nation in the most important metric, which is moral excellence – arete. I drive from Pennsylvania to the Midwest and see a heartbroken place of absurdly unreasonable decay.

    Although some of the paleocons, like Pat Buchanan, really don’t have a big problem with American foreign policy until relatively recently. Buchanan is rather quietly a bit of a Russophobe, at least by today’s dissident right standards. Guys like that don’t seem to mind being less than isolationist, but they do decry the decline in the nation’s interior. Maybe this is what Trumpism is really all about.

  76. @Thorfinnsson
    @German_reader

    John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan's point of departure is November, 1940.

    Because he is citing Ron Unz's essay about the 1940 Presidential election, this means he means that an "isolationist" Republican (not Wendell Wilkie) wins the 1940 Presidential election. Senator Robert "Mr. Conservative" Taft of Ohio for instance.

    Hitler decided to invade the USSR after Molotov's disastrous visit to Berlin in October, 1940.

    Owing to the anti-German foreign policy of the Roosevelt administration, including a stated plan to build 50,000 aircraft per year and supply them to Britain, relatively few industrial resources in advance of Operation Barbarossa were allocated to strengthening the army. Much more were allocated to capital investments and the other services (who also had access to better personnel).

    It is possible that with an isolationist victory in the 1940 US election that Germany would've invested more into strengthening the army, and that this would've provided the necessary margin of victory during Barbarossa.

    I am personally a believer that a neutral, isolationist US would've resulted in a German victory. People like to claim that most Lend-Lease was shipped in the latter years of the war, but this is because because American production kept skyrocketing. Then there are people who claim that the "tide turned" at the end of 1942, as if the war followed lunar phases.

    Even in the absence of a victory in Barbarossa, the following should be considered:

    • US production plans causing Germany to shift its production priorities (as noted earlier)
    • Soviet manpower attrition exceeded German attrition in percentage terms until the middle of 1944
    • The impact of Lend-Lease on the British war effort (generally forgotten, and Britain got more than the USSR)
    • German manpower and materiel diversions to other fronts increased after Stalingrad
    • Lend-Lease providing:



    -58% of the USSR's high octane aviation fuel
    -33% of their motor vehicles
    -53% of USSR domestic production of expended ordnance (artillery shells, mines, assorted explosives)
    -30% of fighters and bombers
    -93% of railway equipment (locomotives, freight cars, wide gauge rails, etc.)
    -50–80% of rolled steel, cable, lead, and aluminium
    -43% of garage facilities (building materials & blueprints)
    -12% of tanks and SPGs
    -50% of TNT (1942-1944) and 33% of ammunition powder (in 1944)[54]
    -16% of all explosives (from 1941–1945, the USSR produced 505,000 tons of explosives and received 105,000 tons of Lend-Lease imports)
     
    Obviously German victory isn't guaranteed in such a scenario. It's well known that German intelligence on the USSR was poor and that they (obviously) underestimated the Red Army. So perhaps production plans wouldn't have changed (there was still the need to defeat Britain). No decision in 1941 then, and hard to imagine one in 1942. Does the German army, freed of an Italian front and the Atlantic Wall, go on to beat the USSR in 1943 or 1944? Maybe.

    Britain's power, especially that of Bomber Command, is often underappreciated. Bomber Command could've collapsed the German war economy in 1943 had they kept hammering the Ruhr. Instead, they shifted to Berlin. How much weaker is Bomber Command in this scenario? German air defenses are unlikely to be much stronger.

    Replies: @German_reader, @LondonBob, @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan, @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan

    Because he is citing Ron Unz’s essay about the 1940 Presidential election, this means he means that an “isolationist” Republican (not Wendell Wilkie) wins the 1940 Presidential election. Senator Robert “Mr. Conservative” Taft of Ohio for instance.

    There was a great paranoid Jewish perspective about the 1940 election in which Charles Lindbergh somehow gets the GOP nomination and becomes President. The perspective was in a novel by Philip Roth called ‘The Plot Against America.’ Luckily no characters spend time acting out sexual fantasies with baked goods or plants, as in other Roth novels.

    Since the novel was written by a bizarre person (Roth), obviously the heinous criminal Lindbergh creates an anti-Semitic America, or something.

    Bill Kauffman wrote a very funny and derisive review of this book

    https://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/heil-to-the-chief/

  77. @Thorfinnsson
    @Mr. Hack

    Civilians have been routinely targeted in warfare since warfare has existed. The earliest "wars", between tribes of hunter-gatherers, had the aim of killing off the other tribe's men in order to seize all their women and hunting lands. The development of agriculture made the men useful as slaves and spared their lives, at least the younger ones.

    There have been at various times wars and rules of wars which make efforts to spare civilians, and there have been wars in which targeting civilians do not make military sense (owing to rapid military victory in the field).

    Common civilizations historically have developed rules of war and fought many wars over "honor" in which these rules were generally respected. Classical Greece, Medieval Europe, Europe from 1648-1914, etc. The rules tend to crumble in long, bitter conflicts (see the American Civil War). They also aren't observed by outsiders, which was a chronic problem Christians faced when attacked by Vikings (who wouldn't follow rules like allowing enemy forces an unmolested river crossing) or when anyone faced the Mongols.

    What really changed in the 20th century was the development of airpower. You can be sure that someone like General Sherman would've been thrilled to carpet bomb civilians had he possessed an air force.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan, @German_reader

    You’re obviously correct about the inclusion of civilian casualties during ancient times. What I had in mind were the ‘rules of war’ that you allude to, most likely primarily developed in Europe, which I only half sarcastically describe in my description of war during medieval times.

  78. Random

    If anyone likes sports but hates SJWs, I recommend watching the American NCAA D1 wrestling national championships, currently in progress in Pittsburgh. Most of the remaining action is available on ESPN.

    Most of the wrestlers are macho straight white males, so it’s fairly refreshing and a nice contrast from virtually every other sport now.

    Wrestling is somehow still one of the last frontiers in America for men. Although when I watch youth wrestling, I see an increasing number of matches involving boys wrestling girls. Because the wackos have to ruin everything. I get such a weird feeling in my stomach, an involuntary response, when I see girls wrestling boys. It’s just not right, man.

    The other great countries in wrestling today are Iran and the countries between Iran and Russia. Russia wins lots of medals, but it seems most of their wrestlers are ethnic Chechens, Ingush, Ossetians, whatever. Countries like Japan have a decent tradition too.

  79. @Thorfinnsson
    @German_reader

    John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan's point of departure is November, 1940.

    Because he is citing Ron Unz's essay about the 1940 Presidential election, this means he means that an "isolationist" Republican (not Wendell Wilkie) wins the 1940 Presidential election. Senator Robert "Mr. Conservative" Taft of Ohio for instance.

    Hitler decided to invade the USSR after Molotov's disastrous visit to Berlin in October, 1940.

    Owing to the anti-German foreign policy of the Roosevelt administration, including a stated plan to build 50,000 aircraft per year and supply them to Britain, relatively few industrial resources in advance of Operation Barbarossa were allocated to strengthening the army. Much more were allocated to capital investments and the other services (who also had access to better personnel).

    It is possible that with an isolationist victory in the 1940 US election that Germany would've invested more into strengthening the army, and that this would've provided the necessary margin of victory during Barbarossa.

    I am personally a believer that a neutral, isolationist US would've resulted in a German victory. People like to claim that most Lend-Lease was shipped in the latter years of the war, but this is because because American production kept skyrocketing. Then there are people who claim that the "tide turned" at the end of 1942, as if the war followed lunar phases.

    Even in the absence of a victory in Barbarossa, the following should be considered:

    • US production plans causing Germany to shift its production priorities (as noted earlier)
    • Soviet manpower attrition exceeded German attrition in percentage terms until the middle of 1944
    • The impact of Lend-Lease on the British war effort (generally forgotten, and Britain got more than the USSR)
    • German manpower and materiel diversions to other fronts increased after Stalingrad
    • Lend-Lease providing:



    -58% of the USSR's high octane aviation fuel
    -33% of their motor vehicles
    -53% of USSR domestic production of expended ordnance (artillery shells, mines, assorted explosives)
    -30% of fighters and bombers
    -93% of railway equipment (locomotives, freight cars, wide gauge rails, etc.)
    -50–80% of rolled steel, cable, lead, and aluminium
    -43% of garage facilities (building materials & blueprints)
    -12% of tanks and SPGs
    -50% of TNT (1942-1944) and 33% of ammunition powder (in 1944)[54]
    -16% of all explosives (from 1941–1945, the USSR produced 505,000 tons of explosives and received 105,000 tons of Lend-Lease imports)
     
    Obviously German victory isn't guaranteed in such a scenario. It's well known that German intelligence on the USSR was poor and that they (obviously) underestimated the Red Army. So perhaps production plans wouldn't have changed (there was still the need to defeat Britain). No decision in 1941 then, and hard to imagine one in 1942. Does the German army, freed of an Italian front and the Atlantic Wall, go on to beat the USSR in 1943 or 1944? Maybe.

    Britain's power, especially that of Bomber Command, is often underappreciated. Bomber Command could've collapsed the German war economy in 1943 had they kept hammering the Ruhr. Instead, they shifted to Berlin. How much weaker is Bomber Command in this scenario? German air defenses are unlikely to be much stronger.

    Replies: @German_reader, @LondonBob, @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan, @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan

    -93% of railway equipment (locomotives, freight cars, wide gauge rails, etc.)

    !!!

    Good grief!!

  80. @Thorfinnsson
    @LondonBob

    A very good point.

    If FDR had been defeated, Churchill might well have been replaced leading to a peace agreement with the Germans.

    Jews were obviously pushing America towards war, but Unz's essay about British influence is interesting and eye-opening:

    https://www.unz.com/runz/american-pravda-alexander-cockburn-and-the-british-spies/

    It's also not just a matter of alien influence. Much of America's WASP establishment, still in control at that time, favored intervention. Foreign Policy magazine helpfully has its archives online, and you can read all sorts of dreck from 1940 about the American need to enter the war or at least support Britain.

    Gallup opinion polling in 1939 also asked Americans if they should help their British "blood brothers" which I found interesting.

    American public opinion was largely opposed to intervention, but tellingly almost no one was in favor of joining the Axis whereas a substantial minority favored aiding or joining the Allies. This despite the fact that obviously America stood to gain from dismembering the British Empire and once and for all eliminating the hideous Canuckist Entity from the map.

    Replies: @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan

    Gallup opinion polling in 1939 also asked Americans if they should help their British “blood brothers” which I found interesting.

    You’re obviously more knowledgeable than I on statistics to do with America, Germany, and Britain in that period of history. With that said, my perception is that Americans of generic “British ancestry” (I mean including people like the Scotch-Irish, who once produced the thoroughly anti-English Andrew Jackson) became more fond of Great Britain as time wore on.

    My ancestry is primarily 18th and 19th century German immigrant stock, so I vaguely perceive a difference between myself and British heritage Americans. Those Americans sure as heck don’t seem to have been terribly philo-English in the middle of the 19th century, although (according to Civil War historian William Freehling) there were pockets that favored England, in places like South Carolina. But South Carolina was always something of an anomaly, even in the South. And in general, this concept of “blood brotherhood” seems like a relatively recent conception. And considering that we had a war scare with Britain as late as the 1890s, I wonder if it was all but within the last 20 years or so before World War 1.

    I also wonder if this “blood brotherhood” idea was very much secondary to the main reason Americans accepted the Second World War, which was the “back door” with Japan. The First World War’s 1917 entrance seems more likely to have been inspired by some supposed tie of kinship.

    I’m hesitant to make much heavy judgment, though. What do you think?

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan

    I don't have roots in this country, but I don't think the idea of kinship between Britons and heritage Americans is a 20th century invention. This kinship however was not taken to mean that there should be an alignment between America and Britain given the then substantial ideological differences between the two countries (as Tom Paine, himself born in Britain, pointed out).

    An example from the 19th century during the Great Exhibition:



    The lock controversy continues a subject of great interest at the Crystal Palace, and, indeed, is now become of general importance. We believed before the Exhibition opened that we had the best locks in the world, and among us Bramah and Chubb were reckoned quite as impregnable as Gibraltar— more so, indeed, for the key to the Mediterranean was taken by us, but none among us could penetrate into the locks and shoot the bolts of these masters. The mechanical spirit, however, is never at rest, and if it is lulled into a false state of listlessness in one branch of industry, and in one part of the world, elsewhere it springs up suddenly to admonish and reproach us with our supineness. Our descendents on the other side of the water are every now and then administering to the mother country a wholesome filial lesson upon this very text, and recently they have been "rubbing us up" with a severity which perhaps we merited for sneering at their shortcomings in the Exhibition.
     
    There were also many reports of American sailors (up to and including US Navy warships exceeding their orders) in the 19th century risking life and limb to fight Japanese and Chinese on behalf of British sailors with kinship as the stated reason.

    Britain faced a number of challenging strategic decisions as the Fin de siècle approached, and its leaders decided to appease America. That appeasement has continued right to the present day.

    British appeasement satisfied America's leaders, and what was later known as the "Eastern Establishment" in turn had developed deeply co-mingled interests with Britain owing to the financial relationship between Wall Street and the City of London. That Americans and especially their leaders were then largely of British stock made the decision to support Britain in both World Wars that much easier.
  81. The thing holding me back from upgrading my PC is that I have the last AMD process that doesn’t have the hardware backdoor. I just can’t sleep at night knowing there’s a guaranteed backdoor on my system.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    @B.P Bollocksworth

    Have you tried turning your PC off at night?

  82. @Thorfinnsson
    @Mr. Hack

    Civilians have been routinely targeted in warfare since warfare has existed. The earliest "wars", between tribes of hunter-gatherers, had the aim of killing off the other tribe's men in order to seize all their women and hunting lands. The development of agriculture made the men useful as slaves and spared their lives, at least the younger ones.

    There have been at various times wars and rules of wars which make efforts to spare civilians, and there have been wars in which targeting civilians do not make military sense (owing to rapid military victory in the field).

    Common civilizations historically have developed rules of war and fought many wars over "honor" in which these rules were generally respected. Classical Greece, Medieval Europe, Europe from 1648-1914, etc. The rules tend to crumble in long, bitter conflicts (see the American Civil War). They also aren't observed by outsiders, which was a chronic problem Christians faced when attacked by Vikings (who wouldn't follow rules like allowing enemy forces an unmolested river crossing) or when anyone faced the Mongols.

    What really changed in the 20th century was the development of airpower. You can be sure that someone like General Sherman would've been thrilled to carpet bomb civilians had he possessed an air force.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan, @German_reader

    Sherman’s record is a bit ambiguous, in fact. His conception of “hard war” was different from “total war.”

    Joseph T. Glatthaar’s book ‘The March to the Sea and Beyond’ is a good one to read. In it, we learn that Joseph Wheeler’s Confederate cavalry, who did not draw any rations from the CSA government from early 1864 until the war’s end, lived off the Georgia countryside more thoroughly than most of Sherman’s troops.

    Most Georgia hamlets that got burned were burned because someone shot at the army from a barn or something. And North Carolina got off fairly easy, due to having been the last state to secede.

    The march’s infamous reputation in Georgia was actually merited, probably, only in South Carolina; many of the Union men cursed SC for starting the long war and so let their inhibitions drop.

    In Columbia, SC, Sherman’s officers posted guards to protect buildings, but the drunken soldiers simply overwhelmed them with numbers of “firebugs” who threw torches into the homes.

    Even some Southerners, though, admitted that many local civilians – of both races, interestingly! – willingly sold whiskey to the passing soldiers, which exacerbated their rage.

    Of course, even then, all of this has nothing in comparison to the average war in the Balkans.

    Among Union generals, Sheridan and Custer were far harsher in the Shenandoah Valley in 1864 than Sherman ever was. Sherman genuinely seems to have liked Southerners, apart from politics; Braxton Bragg was a close friend, and Joseph Johnston was a pall-bearer at Sherman’s funeral. But Sheridan (whom I hate) and Custer would have both liked carpet bombing the Southern civilians. Sheridan and Custer’s burning of the valley also inspired the totally ruthless Confederate cavalry raid on Chambersburg, PA, which resulted in the burning of the entire town except, oddly enough, the local Masonic temple.

    (By the way, the favorite hobby of Confederates invading Pennsylvania and Maryland was to capture local blacks and sell them into slavery – nice little throwback to the ancient days, eh? When they tried this in Greencastle, PA in 1863, a mob of local farmers attacked the rebels and freed the Union prisoners and 10 or 20 blacks they were driving through town.)

    Know who else would have liked carpet bombing? Stonewall Jackson. Jackson’s been called the ‘Southern Cromwell’ for good reason.

    • Replies: @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan
    @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan

    And just for the record:

    Custer had it coming at Little Big Horn

    Good for you, Cheyenne primitives

    , @Thorfinnsson
    @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan

    Good points--I should've named Sheridan over Sherman.

    Presumably Winfield Scott, architect of the Anaconda Plan, would've approved of strategic bombing.

    , @reiner Tor
    @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan

    What is (are) the best book(s) about the American Civil War?

    Replies: @LondonBob, @German_reader, @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan

    , @LondonBob
    @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan

    Cromwell and Jackson strongly encouraged religious devotion in their troops, viewed themselves as instruments of God as well as being the two generals who shone out the most in their respective civil wars. I am not aware that Cromwell committed any atrocities, the only three I am aware of are the massacre of Bolton residents by Royalists, and the massacre at the siege of Basing House where Cromwell was the commander and some womenfolk camp followers who were killed at some battle. Cromwell's conduct was exemplary, despite Irish and Royalist black propaganda otherwise.

    Replies: @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan, @DFH, @Hibernian

  83. @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan
    @Thorfinnsson

    Sherman's record is a bit ambiguous, in fact. His conception of "hard war" was different from "total war."

    Joseph T. Glatthaar's book 'The March to the Sea and Beyond' is a good one to read. In it, we learn that Joseph Wheeler's Confederate cavalry, who did not draw any rations from the CSA government from early 1864 until the war's end, lived off the Georgia countryside more thoroughly than most of Sherman's troops.

    Most Georgia hamlets that got burned were burned because someone shot at the army from a barn or something. And North Carolina got off fairly easy, due to having been the last state to secede.

    The march's infamous reputation in Georgia was actually merited, probably, only in South Carolina; many of the Union men cursed SC for starting the long war and so let their inhibitions drop.

    In Columbia, SC, Sherman's officers posted guards to protect buildings, but the drunken soldiers simply overwhelmed them with numbers of "firebugs" who threw torches into the homes.

    Even some Southerners, though, admitted that many local civilians - of both races, interestingly! - willingly sold whiskey to the passing soldiers, which exacerbated their rage.

    Of course, even then, all of this has nothing in comparison to the average war in the Balkans.

    Among Union generals, Sheridan and Custer were far harsher in the Shenandoah Valley in 1864 than Sherman ever was. Sherman genuinely seems to have liked Southerners, apart from politics; Braxton Bragg was a close friend, and Joseph Johnston was a pall-bearer at Sherman's funeral. But Sheridan (whom I hate) and Custer would have both liked carpet bombing the Southern civilians. Sheridan and Custer's burning of the valley also inspired the totally ruthless Confederate cavalry raid on Chambersburg, PA, which resulted in the burning of the entire town except, oddly enough, the local Masonic temple.

    (By the way, the favorite hobby of Confederates invading Pennsylvania and Maryland was to capture local blacks and sell them into slavery - nice little throwback to the ancient days, eh? When they tried this in Greencastle, PA in 1863, a mob of local farmers attacked the rebels and freed the Union prisoners and 10 or 20 blacks they were driving through town.)

    Know who else would have liked carpet bombing? Stonewall Jackson. Jackson's been called the 'Southern Cromwell' for good reason.

    Replies: @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan, @Thorfinnsson, @reiner Tor, @LondonBob

    And just for the record:

    Custer had it coming at Little Big Horn

    Good for you, Cheyenne primitives

  84. Anonymous[151] • Disclaimer says:
    @reiner Tor
    @Anonymous

    Orbán also seems to consider this strategy: trying to get the Israeli Jews on his side. It might work, though as the Israeli tirade against Poland shows, it’s not an easy thing to pull off.

    Replies: @for-the-record, @Anonymous

    Bari Weiss (American Jewish centre-right columnist and staunch Zionist) did a fawning piece on Israel’s Blue and White coalition for the NYT, and one of the main reasons she cited for admiring them is that, unlike Bibi, they won’t be friendly with Orban and Bolsonaro.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/19/opinion/netanyahu-israel-yair-lapid.html

    This is unironically the level many American Jews work on with regards to Israel: please reconquer all of Judea and Samaria, but don’t you dare be friendly with some guy who said mean stuff about gays! Palestinian blood is unimportant compared to having a designated prayer space for women at the Western Wall.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/11/opinion/religion/israel-women-western-wall.html

    • Agree: utu
    • Replies: @German_reader
    @Anonymous


    but don’t you dare be friendly with some guy who said mean stuff about gays!
     
    In regards to Orban (or Polish right-wingers, or really any kind of European nationalist, no matter how moderate) the issue isn't homo stuff or other liberal pieties, but rather insufficient grovelling before the altar of eternal Jewish victimhood. The appointed role for Europeans here is that of descendants of Holocaust perpetrators who have to perpetually abase themselves, accept the multicultural restructuring of their societies (so Jews can feel safe/enact their vengeance), and are somehow exspected at the same time to swallow all the ahistorical myth-making of Zionists and uncritically support Israel (because Jewish nationalism is for some reason apparently the only legitimate nationalism).

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson, @Anonymous

  85. @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan
    @Thorfinnsson


    Gallup opinion polling in 1939 also asked Americans if they should help their British “blood brothers” which I found interesting.

     

    You're obviously more knowledgeable than I on statistics to do with America, Germany, and Britain in that period of history. With that said, my perception is that Americans of generic "British ancestry" (I mean including people like the Scotch-Irish, who once produced the thoroughly anti-English Andrew Jackson) became more fond of Great Britain as time wore on.

    My ancestry is primarily 18th and 19th century German immigrant stock, so I vaguely perceive a difference between myself and British heritage Americans. Those Americans sure as heck don't seem to have been terribly philo-English in the middle of the 19th century, although (according to Civil War historian William Freehling) there were pockets that favored England, in places like South Carolina. But South Carolina was always something of an anomaly, even in the South. And in general, this concept of "blood brotherhood" seems like a relatively recent conception. And considering that we had a war scare with Britain as late as the 1890s, I wonder if it was all but within the last 20 years or so before World War 1.

    I also wonder if this "blood brotherhood" idea was very much secondary to the main reason Americans accepted the Second World War, which was the "back door" with Japan. The First World War's 1917 entrance seems more likely to have been inspired by some supposed tie of kinship.

    I'm hesitant to make much heavy judgment, though. What do you think?

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson

    I don’t have roots in this country, but I don’t think the idea of kinship between Britons and heritage Americans is a 20th century invention. This kinship however was not taken to mean that there should be an alignment between America and Britain given the then substantial ideological differences between the two countries (as Tom Paine, himself born in Britain, pointed out).

    An example from the 19th century during the Great Exhibition:

    The lock controversy continues a subject of great interest at the Crystal Palace, and, indeed, is now become of general importance. We believed before the Exhibition opened that we had the best locks in the world, and among us Bramah and Chubb were reckoned quite as impregnable as Gibraltar— more so, indeed, for the key to the Mediterranean was taken by us, but none among us could penetrate into the locks and shoot the bolts of these masters. The mechanical spirit, however, is never at rest, and if it is lulled into a false state of listlessness in one branch of industry, and in one part of the world, elsewhere it springs up suddenly to admonish and reproach us with our supineness. Our descendents on the other side of the water are every now and then administering to the mother country a wholesome filial lesson upon this very text, and recently they have been “rubbing us up” with a severity which perhaps we merited for sneering at their shortcomings in the Exhibition.

    There were also many reports of American sailors (up to and including US Navy warships exceeding their orders) in the 19th century risking life and limb to fight Japanese and Chinese on behalf of British sailors with kinship as the stated reason.

    Britain faced a number of challenging strategic decisions as the Fin de siècle approached, and its leaders decided to appease America. That appeasement has continued right to the present day.

    British appeasement satisfied America’s leaders, and what was later known as the “Eastern Establishment” in turn had developed deeply co-mingled interests with Britain owing to the financial relationship between Wall Street and the City of London. That Americans and especially their leaders were then largely of British stock made the decision to support Britain in both World Wars that much easier.

  86. @B.P Bollocksworth
    The thing holding me back from upgrading my PC is that I have the last AMD process that doesn't have the hardware backdoor. I just can't sleep at night knowing there's a guaranteed backdoor on my system.

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson

    Have you tried turning your PC off at night?

  87. @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan
    @Thorfinnsson

    Sherman's record is a bit ambiguous, in fact. His conception of "hard war" was different from "total war."

    Joseph T. Glatthaar's book 'The March to the Sea and Beyond' is a good one to read. In it, we learn that Joseph Wheeler's Confederate cavalry, who did not draw any rations from the CSA government from early 1864 until the war's end, lived off the Georgia countryside more thoroughly than most of Sherman's troops.

    Most Georgia hamlets that got burned were burned because someone shot at the army from a barn or something. And North Carolina got off fairly easy, due to having been the last state to secede.

    The march's infamous reputation in Georgia was actually merited, probably, only in South Carolina; many of the Union men cursed SC for starting the long war and so let their inhibitions drop.

    In Columbia, SC, Sherman's officers posted guards to protect buildings, but the drunken soldiers simply overwhelmed them with numbers of "firebugs" who threw torches into the homes.

    Even some Southerners, though, admitted that many local civilians - of both races, interestingly! - willingly sold whiskey to the passing soldiers, which exacerbated their rage.

    Of course, even then, all of this has nothing in comparison to the average war in the Balkans.

    Among Union generals, Sheridan and Custer were far harsher in the Shenandoah Valley in 1864 than Sherman ever was. Sherman genuinely seems to have liked Southerners, apart from politics; Braxton Bragg was a close friend, and Joseph Johnston was a pall-bearer at Sherman's funeral. But Sheridan (whom I hate) and Custer would have both liked carpet bombing the Southern civilians. Sheridan and Custer's burning of the valley also inspired the totally ruthless Confederate cavalry raid on Chambersburg, PA, which resulted in the burning of the entire town except, oddly enough, the local Masonic temple.

    (By the way, the favorite hobby of Confederates invading Pennsylvania and Maryland was to capture local blacks and sell them into slavery - nice little throwback to the ancient days, eh? When they tried this in Greencastle, PA in 1863, a mob of local farmers attacked the rebels and freed the Union prisoners and 10 or 20 blacks they were driving through town.)

    Know who else would have liked carpet bombing? Stonewall Jackson. Jackson's been called the 'Southern Cromwell' for good reason.

    Replies: @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan, @Thorfinnsson, @reiner Tor, @LondonBob

    Good points–I should’ve named Sheridan over Sherman.

    Presumably Winfield Scott, architect of the Anaconda Plan, would’ve approved of strategic bombing.

  88. @Anonymous
    @Dmitry

    I think Trump is playing brilliant politics here, and I am no fanboy of his. Democrats are becoming more critical of Israel, but it is still a wedge issue for them, at this time probably the most salient and divisive one. Probably the majority of Democratic voters have a generally neutral-to-negative view of Israel, and now the more strident anti-Zionists (typically younger voters and non-whites) have a voice in Congress with Reps. Omar and Tlaib. But the Dem establishment (embodied in Pelosi and Schumer) is still strongly pro-Israel, and Jewish donors are still a major (really, the major) source of fundraising for establishment Dems.

    This is combustible on many levels: to criticize Omar and Tlaib as a Dem is to open oneself up to allegations of sexism, racism, xenophobia and Islamophobia, which can be lethal to one's career. To support or even tolerate them is to risk alienating Jewish money. All this occurs against the backdrop of Israel taking an increasingly hard line on the settlements and the question of identity, especially if Bibi is re-elected. And Omar and Tlaib, far from being fringe back-benchers, are hip and popular; along with AOC, they have possession of the souls of the young and non-white voters that the Dems are utterly dependent on.

    The Democrats are totally schizophrenic on this issue, and Trump knows it. So he will continually try to up the ante, to push any kind of pro-Israel legislation he can think of, to goad Omar and Tlaib into making more brash statements and to goad the Dems into voting against Israel. He hopes that there will be more intra-party struggle sessions and that they waste time drafting resolutions against each other. And then, come 2020, he will run ads in Florida marketed towards elderly Jews positioning himself as the greatest Zionist since Ben-Gurion. Trump is a piss-poor legislator but he is brilliant in PR.

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @reiner Tor, @neutral, @Hyperborean, @Dmitry

    I agree Trump is very clever in marketing (I was sure he was going to be President already when I first saw him talking about it in 2012 in YouTube).

    However, he is not cynical. He believes his policies, like tariffs, Israel and border walls.

    Some of these are consistent for all his life. You can see him discussing trade protectionism in the 1980s on television.

    With Israel, the reason everyone knew he was going to be the most pro-Israel American president (before he became president), was because he was personally funding Israeli settlements since 1981.

    His name is in townsquares in two settlements in Israel as a largest donor to their establishment

    He wins awards like:


    He led “Salute to Israel” parade in 2004 (lol how does this exist?)


    In 2006, he spent $44 million to buy land in Israel

    Donald Trump completes $44m purchase of Elite site

    https://en.globes.co.il/en/article-1000105798

    Just searching now for this topic, and saw he bought 4 ambulance cycles for Israel in 2014 (there’s probably a lot more things like this):

    Beer will be meeting with Trump at his office tomorrow to get the check that will pay for the four new ambucycles.
    Beer commended Trump for his donation, adding “he is a true lover of Israel.”

    https://www.vosizneias.com/154841/2014/02/10/new-york-trump-to-donate-rescue-bikes-to-israels-united-hatzalah/

    • Replies: @Gerard2
    @Dmitry

    but are you saying that he's so pro-Israel that it accounts for his heavily anti-Russia policy( in that Russia is aligned with Syria and semi-aligned with Iran)? Or that he's forced into this by the rest of American apparatus?

    As for Russia and Israel - I've always viewed the relationship as broadly , positive, but Israel have at times assisted either the state or individuals in Gruzia and Ukraine that are hostile to Russia....and I did note with interest that when practically every western state sent their most important leaders to Shimon Peres's funeral.....not a single one of Russia's big politicians went there - not VVP,Medvedev, Lavrov, Matvienko, Volodin . Obviously the US sent everyone, Fra, Spain, Germany ,UK, Italy all sent their PM/Presidents and constitutional monarchs - but nobody for Russia

    Poroshenko did though, laughably go to that march in Paris in solidarity over the Charlie Hebdo killings .

  89. @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan
    @Thorfinnsson

    Sherman's record is a bit ambiguous, in fact. His conception of "hard war" was different from "total war."

    Joseph T. Glatthaar's book 'The March to the Sea and Beyond' is a good one to read. In it, we learn that Joseph Wheeler's Confederate cavalry, who did not draw any rations from the CSA government from early 1864 until the war's end, lived off the Georgia countryside more thoroughly than most of Sherman's troops.

    Most Georgia hamlets that got burned were burned because someone shot at the army from a barn or something. And North Carolina got off fairly easy, due to having been the last state to secede.

    The march's infamous reputation in Georgia was actually merited, probably, only in South Carolina; many of the Union men cursed SC for starting the long war and so let their inhibitions drop.

    In Columbia, SC, Sherman's officers posted guards to protect buildings, but the drunken soldiers simply overwhelmed them with numbers of "firebugs" who threw torches into the homes.

    Even some Southerners, though, admitted that many local civilians - of both races, interestingly! - willingly sold whiskey to the passing soldiers, which exacerbated their rage.

    Of course, even then, all of this has nothing in comparison to the average war in the Balkans.

    Among Union generals, Sheridan and Custer were far harsher in the Shenandoah Valley in 1864 than Sherman ever was. Sherman genuinely seems to have liked Southerners, apart from politics; Braxton Bragg was a close friend, and Joseph Johnston was a pall-bearer at Sherman's funeral. But Sheridan (whom I hate) and Custer would have both liked carpet bombing the Southern civilians. Sheridan and Custer's burning of the valley also inspired the totally ruthless Confederate cavalry raid on Chambersburg, PA, which resulted in the burning of the entire town except, oddly enough, the local Masonic temple.

    (By the way, the favorite hobby of Confederates invading Pennsylvania and Maryland was to capture local blacks and sell them into slavery - nice little throwback to the ancient days, eh? When they tried this in Greencastle, PA in 1863, a mob of local farmers attacked the rebels and freed the Union prisoners and 10 or 20 blacks they were driving through town.)

    Know who else would have liked carpet bombing? Stonewall Jackson. Jackson's been called the 'Southern Cromwell' for good reason.

    Replies: @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan, @Thorfinnsson, @reiner Tor, @LondonBob

    What is (are) the best book(s) about the American Civil War?

    • Replies: @LondonBob
    @reiner Tor

    Shelby Foote's The Civil War: A Narrative.
    James MacPherson's Battle Cry of Freedom for a Northern perspective.

    Replies: @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan

    , @German_reader
    @reiner Tor

    I second LondonBob's recommendation of McPherson's Battle cry of freedom, probably the best single-volume history of the war (and it isn't a purely military history, but devotes a lot of attention to political issues, with the first 300 pages or so dealing with the political crises of the 1850s and the 1860 election).

    , @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan
    @reiner Tor

    I hesitate to answer that without thinking about it in categorical terms

    I will say for now that the following come to mind as very good books

    For a one volume political summary, that focuses on 1848-1861, I highly recommend 'The Impending Crisis' by historian by David Potter.

    For a longer summary, I quite like William Freehling's two-volume book 'The Road to Disunion.' Freehling focuses on the development of secessionist politics in the South, with enough background info on the North to know what was going on there. He goes into extensive detail and depth on social aspects. You will learn about the many differences between the respective Southern states. Freehling is also rather a fun writer; Potter has lots of good anecdotes, and knows how to write a narrative with pace.

    IIRC, Freehling's main argument, with which I mostly agreed, is that as white men began to become more egalitarian (towards themselves, that is, not towards other races/cultures - Jackson is a good example), the domestic elitism, so to speak, of slavery inevitably clashed with the larger political culture, including, to a surprisingly large degree, within the South itself.

    David Detzer wrote a fine summary of the actual outbreak of the war - the Sumter crisis. It is called 'Allegiance.'

    For a summary of the war itself, 'Battle Cry of Freedom' is, again, pretty good. I have to admit, though, I've mostly read specific topics from the war, and very few summary-type books.

    Shelby Foote and Bruce Catton, again, were the classic popular Civil War writers of the mid 20th century. Being a Northerner (though I have rebels in the family tree), Catton's Michigan style is appealing to me more so than Foote. Foote was arguably a better writer, though.

    There are copious memoirs from the war. Both armies were, in fact, highly literate. And the guys who could write were much better writers than today's average people.

    Whatever you do, don't read Thomas DiLorenzo or Garry Wills. DiLorenzo is a pro-Confederate partisan, while Wills is the kind of guy who tries to interpret Lincoln as belonging to a kind of multicultural liberal tradition. They're both hacks, though DiLorenzo probably commits more sins offensive to the discipline of history.

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @Beckow

  90. @reiner Tor
    @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan

    What is (are) the best book(s) about the American Civil War?

    Replies: @LondonBob, @German_reader, @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan

    Shelby Foote’s The Civil War: A Narrative.
    James MacPherson’s Battle Cry of Freedom for a Northern perspective.

    • Replies: @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan
    @LondonBob

    McPherson is good, but I prefer good old Bruce Catton for a Northern perspective.

  91. @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan
    @Thorfinnsson

    Sherman's record is a bit ambiguous, in fact. His conception of "hard war" was different from "total war."

    Joseph T. Glatthaar's book 'The March to the Sea and Beyond' is a good one to read. In it, we learn that Joseph Wheeler's Confederate cavalry, who did not draw any rations from the CSA government from early 1864 until the war's end, lived off the Georgia countryside more thoroughly than most of Sherman's troops.

    Most Georgia hamlets that got burned were burned because someone shot at the army from a barn or something. And North Carolina got off fairly easy, due to having been the last state to secede.

    The march's infamous reputation in Georgia was actually merited, probably, only in South Carolina; many of the Union men cursed SC for starting the long war and so let their inhibitions drop.

    In Columbia, SC, Sherman's officers posted guards to protect buildings, but the drunken soldiers simply overwhelmed them with numbers of "firebugs" who threw torches into the homes.

    Even some Southerners, though, admitted that many local civilians - of both races, interestingly! - willingly sold whiskey to the passing soldiers, which exacerbated their rage.

    Of course, even then, all of this has nothing in comparison to the average war in the Balkans.

    Among Union generals, Sheridan and Custer were far harsher in the Shenandoah Valley in 1864 than Sherman ever was. Sherman genuinely seems to have liked Southerners, apart from politics; Braxton Bragg was a close friend, and Joseph Johnston was a pall-bearer at Sherman's funeral. But Sheridan (whom I hate) and Custer would have both liked carpet bombing the Southern civilians. Sheridan and Custer's burning of the valley also inspired the totally ruthless Confederate cavalry raid on Chambersburg, PA, which resulted in the burning of the entire town except, oddly enough, the local Masonic temple.

    (By the way, the favorite hobby of Confederates invading Pennsylvania and Maryland was to capture local blacks and sell them into slavery - nice little throwback to the ancient days, eh? When they tried this in Greencastle, PA in 1863, a mob of local farmers attacked the rebels and freed the Union prisoners and 10 or 20 blacks they were driving through town.)

    Know who else would have liked carpet bombing? Stonewall Jackson. Jackson's been called the 'Southern Cromwell' for good reason.

    Replies: @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan, @Thorfinnsson, @reiner Tor, @LondonBob

    Cromwell and Jackson strongly encouraged religious devotion in their troops, viewed themselves as instruments of God as well as being the two generals who shone out the most in their respective civil wars. I am not aware that Cromwell committed any atrocities, the only three I am aware of are the massacre of Bolton residents by Royalists, and the massacre at the siege of Basing House where Cromwell was the commander and some womenfolk camp followers who were killed at some battle. Cromwell’s conduct was exemplary, despite Irish and Royalist black propaganda otherwise.

    • Replies: @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan
    @LondonBob

    Two things

    First of all, several Civil War generals were better than Jackson. Especially Bedford Forrest.

    as for Cromwell and atrocities, whatever you say, man

    , @DFH
    @LondonBob


    I am not aware that Cromwell committed any atrocities, the only three I am aware of are the massacre of Bolton residents by Royalists, and the massacre at the siege of Basing House where Cromwell was the commander and some womenfolk camp followers who were killed at some battle.
     
    Ummmmmmmm........ Does the name Drogheda ring a bell?

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b8/Massacre_at_Drogheda.jpeg

    Replies: @songbird, @LondonBob

    , @Hibernian
    @LondonBob

    "...despite Irish and Royalist black propaganda otherwise."

    When you're a common enemy of the Irish and the Royalists, you might rethink your position.

  92. @Thorfinnsson
    @Mr. Hack

    Civilians have been routinely targeted in warfare since warfare has existed. The earliest "wars", between tribes of hunter-gatherers, had the aim of killing off the other tribe's men in order to seize all their women and hunting lands. The development of agriculture made the men useful as slaves and spared their lives, at least the younger ones.

    There have been at various times wars and rules of wars which make efforts to spare civilians, and there have been wars in which targeting civilians do not make military sense (owing to rapid military victory in the field).

    Common civilizations historically have developed rules of war and fought many wars over "honor" in which these rules were generally respected. Classical Greece, Medieval Europe, Europe from 1648-1914, etc. The rules tend to crumble in long, bitter conflicts (see the American Civil War). They also aren't observed by outsiders, which was a chronic problem Christians faced when attacked by Vikings (who wouldn't follow rules like allowing enemy forces an unmolested river crossing) or when anyone faced the Mongols.

    What really changed in the 20th century was the development of airpower. You can be sure that someone like General Sherman would've been thrilled to carpet bomb civilians had he possessed an air force.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan, @German_reader

    General Sherman would’ve been thrilled to carpet bomb civilians had he possessed an air force.

    iirc Sherman’s orders during his campaign in the American South were mostly aimed at destroying property like plantations, railway stock etc. The number of civilians killed by his forces wasn’t that high.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    @German_reader

    John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan already corrected me on that point, but the correction does not rule out the connection of Sherman's March to the Sea with 20th century strategic bombing.

    It does admittedly rule out morale bombing, which would include the atomic bombings. Most infamously RAF Bomber Command has a doctrine of "dehousing" specifically intended to demoralize German workers. That said even Bomber Command's "area bombing" was often targeted at industrial concentrations.

    American strategic bombing doctrine was specifically focused on industrial targets until Curtis LeMay adopted a modified British approach to Japan.

    Civilian casualties were higher than earlier forms of economic warfare, but that was owed to the inaccuracy of high altitude bombing.

  93. German_reader says:
    @reiner Tor
    @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan

    What is (are) the best book(s) about the American Civil War?

    Replies: @LondonBob, @German_reader, @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan

    I second LondonBob’s recommendation of McPherson’s Battle cry of freedom, probably the best single-volume history of the war (and it isn’t a purely military history, but devotes a lot of attention to political issues, with the first 300 pages or so dealing with the political crises of the 1850s and the 1860 election).

  94. German_reader says:
    @Anonymous
    @reiner Tor

    Bari Weiss (American Jewish centre-right columnist and staunch Zionist) did a fawning piece on Israel's Blue and White coalition for the NYT, and one of the main reasons she cited for admiring them is that, unlike Bibi, they won't be friendly with Orban and Bolsonaro.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/19/opinion/netanyahu-israel-yair-lapid.html

    This is unironically the level many American Jews work on with regards to Israel: please reconquer all of Judea and Samaria, but don't you dare be friendly with some guy who said mean stuff about gays! Palestinian blood is unimportant compared to having a designated prayer space for women at the Western Wall.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/11/opinion/religion/israel-women-western-wall.html

    Replies: @German_reader

    but don’t you dare be friendly with some guy who said mean stuff about gays!

    In regards to Orban (or Polish right-wingers, or really any kind of European nationalist, no matter how moderate) the issue isn’t homo stuff or other liberal pieties, but rather insufficient grovelling before the altar of eternal Jewish victimhood. The appointed role for Europeans here is that of descendants of Holocaust perpetrators who have to perpetually abase themselves, accept the multicultural restructuring of their societies (so Jews can feel safe/enact their vengeance), and are somehow exspected at the same time to swallow all the ahistorical myth-making of Zionists and uncritically support Israel (because Jewish nationalism is for some reason apparently the only legitimate nationalism).

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    @German_reader

    The current, bizarre Jewish campaign against Poland is a case in point--and exceptionally weird.

    If anyone can compete with the Jews in WW2 victimhood it's the Poles.

    But now we learn that Poland shoah'd the SIX MILLION...

    Replies: @German_reader, @utu

    , @Anonymous
    @German_reader

    There may be some element of that (and she does invoke it later in the article), but Weiss specifically names Bolsonaro in the same breath as Orban; Brazil had 0 to do with the Holocaust, has historically been friendly to Jews, and on top of that Bolsonaro is a man with avowed pro-Zionist sympathies! And Weiss hates Trump (as do almost all Jewish neocons), and he is probably the most pro-Jewish pro-Israel the US has ever had.

    The Holocaust is a useful rhetorical tool because it is an issue on which Jews occupy an unassailable moral high ground, but it's not something the average Jew/Israeli really cares about as it affects day to day life (Israelis have a warmer regard for Germany than vice versa in every poll I have seen). Orban and the Poles are not demonized because of the Holocaust, they are demonized because they refuse to give their full assent to American-style neoliberalism.

    Replies: @German_reader

  95. @German_reader
    @Thorfinnsson


    General Sherman would’ve been thrilled to carpet bomb civilians had he possessed an air force.
     
    iirc Sherman's orders during his campaign in the American South were mostly aimed at destroying property like plantations, railway stock etc. The number of civilians killed by his forces wasn't that high.

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson

    John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan already corrected me on that point, but the correction does not rule out the connection of Sherman’s March to the Sea with 20th century strategic bombing.

    It does admittedly rule out morale bombing, which would include the atomic bombings. Most infamously RAF Bomber Command has a doctrine of “dehousing” specifically intended to demoralize German workers. That said even Bomber Command’s “area bombing” was often targeted at industrial concentrations.

    American strategic bombing doctrine was specifically focused on industrial targets until Curtis LeMay adopted a modified British approach to Japan.

    Civilian casualties were higher than earlier forms of economic warfare, but that was owed to the inaccuracy of high altitude bombing.

  96. @German_reader
    @Anonymous


    but don’t you dare be friendly with some guy who said mean stuff about gays!
     
    In regards to Orban (or Polish right-wingers, or really any kind of European nationalist, no matter how moderate) the issue isn't homo stuff or other liberal pieties, but rather insufficient grovelling before the altar of eternal Jewish victimhood. The appointed role for Europeans here is that of descendants of Holocaust perpetrators who have to perpetually abase themselves, accept the multicultural restructuring of their societies (so Jews can feel safe/enact their vengeance), and are somehow exspected at the same time to swallow all the ahistorical myth-making of Zionists and uncritically support Israel (because Jewish nationalism is for some reason apparently the only legitimate nationalism).

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson, @Anonymous

    The current, bizarre Jewish campaign against Poland is a case in point–and exceptionally weird.

    If anyone can compete with the Jews in WW2 victimhood it’s the Poles.

    But now we learn that Poland shoah’d the SIX MILLION…

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @Thorfinnsson


    The current, bizarre Jewish campaign against Poland is a case in point–and exceptionally weird.
     
    Much weirder though imo is that there's so much gentile support for Jewish nationalism, even though there's almost zero reciprocity.
    There are tons of gentiles who get very, very emotionally invested in their defense of Israel and Zionism, not least on the so-called right (it's of course especially bad in the US where things are just grotesque, but there are many such people in Europe as well, across the political spectrum). I don't understand the psychology of those people.

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson, @Denis, @Dmitry

    , @utu
    @Thorfinnsson


    bizarre Jewish campaign against Poland
     
    Big money. Jewish organizations and Israel are hoping to squeeze out of Poland $300 billions for the so called heirless property. The heirless property disposition raises serious legal issues. Who should get it and why Jews? So the argument is being made along the line of Holocaust uniqueness so the traditional and accepted legal norms could be circumvented.

    http://www.codozasady.pl/en/the-issue-of-jewish-heirless-property-demands-extraordinary-measures/

    Applying the general principle of inheritance law that heirless property is acquired by the state to questions of Jewish heirless property in Poland is ill-considered and does not take into account the tragic realities involved.

    Furthermore, moral considerations strongly indicate that alternative solutions to the issue must be found.
     
    For this reason the cases of some Poles participation in killing Jews are being blown out of proportions is to create a moral foundation for the ethical norm that the murderers may not draw material benefits from the death of their victims.

    Poland is first in line. Other countries in Eastern Europe like Ukraine and Belarus will come next. But they unlike Poland are not 'ripe' yet for the racket. Ukraine is too poor and politically precarious, so in the mean time the Banderites, the true Jew killers of Eastern Europe, are being nourished and encouraged to taint Ukraine forever with Nazism and make Ukraine easy picking in the future. Belarus is under Putin's protective umbrella. Jewish claims against Belarus would push it closer to Russia. Perhaps Putin could ask his buddy Netanyahu to make such claims. At some point we will see Slovakia being hit really hard because Slovakia was the most enthusiastic country in Europe with respect to Nazi Jewish policies.

    Poland was drawn (willingly) into the American sphere of influence with no alternatives left. To make it worse Poland was put (put itself) on the course of conflict with Germany and EU. The recent Polish claims about restitutions from Germany are part of it. It is really just a psy-op directed at Polish public opinion to bring them down to the level of the Jewish vindictive ethics to make them more appreciative of Jewish claims leaving a false promise that once Germany pays (which will not happen) paying the Jews will be easier. Compare that with the letter of reconciliation "We forgive and ask for forgiveness" of 1965 by Polish Bishops to their German counterparts which represents the true spirit of Polish Catholicism.

    Some Poles also entertain illusory rationalization that the Jewish claims will be offset by purchases of American (and Israeli) armaments which they want to buy anyway. Poles go through the standard steps of denial. And they are afraid to talk about it because of fear of being accused of antisemitism.

    One may wonder to what extent the prying off V4 countries from EU and creating the illusory vision of the Intermarium and the vilification of Russia are part of the long term strategy to settle the Holocaust financial claims. When you think about it, whatever Israel and the Jewry are doing to these countries is good for Russia in the long term.

    Replies: @Grahamsno(G64)

  97. @Thorfinnsson
    @Gerard2

    …and what stopped them from concentrating on defeating the British in North Africa by way of not conducting Barbarossa? Thus saving valuable resources and military power being sent east – particularly with the Italian forces at an early stage in North Africa proving to be not so successful.
     

    Logistics are the largest reason. Prior to Operation Sonnenblume, the Germans determined the largest force that could be fielded in North Africa and supplied from Italy was just four divisions (compare to the Eastern Front).

    That is not the sole reason of course, as even this Hitler refused to send. The Italians after the war accused Hitler of having a purely "continental" strategic view. Erich Raeder, commander of the Kriegsmarine, suggested taking Gibraltar (with or without Franco's consent) and expanding into the Mediterranean.

    The German airborne invasion of Crete, while a success, perhaps in a way doomed the small Afrika Korps that Hitler did authorize. Owing to the huge losses at Crete, the Germans chose to cancel the planned invasion of Malta (Operation Hercules). Malta in turn aided the British in interdicting Italian supply convoys to Africa.

    German and Italian troops in Africa always suffered extreme shortages and relied heavily on captured equipment (by the time of 1st El Alamein over 80% of Rommel's truck park was captured British vehicles). The situation was so bad that Axis troops in Africa even suffered from nutritional deficiencies and were jaundiced.

    The Shah of Iran had come out of support for the Nazis, M-R pact – surely all this secured them a steady oil supply for the short-medium term?
     

    Sort of. He simply declared neutrality and refused to expel German railwaymen and other technical specialists. Iran also reduced its trade with Germany at the request of the British.

    His actions were considered insufficient, and given the importance of Iran to Britain and the USSR the hapless country was invaded and occupied.

    In any case owing to the Royal Navy there was no way to ship Iranian oil to Germany. In theory Iranian oil could've been shipped overland through Turkey, but the British could've seized Iran (or just the oilfields) long before any such infrastructure could be built.

    If you are saying that the Kriegsmarine were so outmatched by the British that they were going to get smashed in the Mediterranean sea ( thus making land /air combat in North Africa redundant) then surely you could argue that Wehrmacht combined could have turned the situation by spoiler tactics- engaging the British to such an extent -hurting their oil infrastructure in North Africa, hitting naval oil routes back to Britain – that some treaty over the oil states would have been reached? North Africa was the British Empire’s biggest source of oil.
     

    The Kriegsmarine did not even have the ability to enter the Mediterranean Sea because the British controlled Gibraltar and Suez. They were able to infiltrate some U-boats.

    The Regia Marina was a fairly large force, but it did not have the same high standards as the British. It also suffered from chronic shortages of fuel and thus often was not able to sortie.

    There was no oil in North Africa then (it had not yet been discovered), and since Italy's entry into the war convoys from the east had already been routed around the Cape of Good Hope rather than through the Mediterranean.

    An Axis victory in the Western Desert Campaign was in my view possible, but then what? Britain would be excluded from the Mediterranean...but still undefeated. Presumably Axis forces could've gone onto Iran, which was Britain's major source of oil (British Petroleum was originally known as Anglo-Persian), but Britain could also import oil from the rest of the world.

    Let’s not forget that Britain never once entered Poland in WW2, defeating an enemy (positioned 30 km away through the Eenglish Channel) by first defeating them in North Africa, then going through Italy via the south, THEN belatedly going through northern France ( as the Soviets start liberating Europe) is practically an unheard of method of victory in war – very successful in this instance…but one in which if the Nazi’s had known this as if psychic- they would probably have thought that “North Africa – Italy – then France” method creates a series of “fail-safes” in strategy for the Nazis from they would have been very confident of not losing the war
     

    The British did draw up plans to invade Soviet-occupied Eastern Europe in 1945 in order to liberate Poland, but the plan was not carried out for reasons of sanity. The planners clearly had a sense of humor as the plan was named Operation Unthinkable.

    As a seapower on the edge of Europe with limited amounts of manpower Britain traditionally exerted itself on the continent through its navy and commercial power. It did field a respectable army, but it was never large and always fought in coalition. After the 100 Years War the only time Britain ever fielded a massive army in Europe for many years in a row was in WW1.

    British strategy against Germany was fixed in 1936 to focus on strategic bombing. It was in 1936 that the Air Ministry issued Specification P.13/36 for a "worldwide bomber". This ultimately led to the Avro Lancaster, superior to the American B-17 and B-24. In order to mollify the French, the Chamberlain government also agreed to send a small expeditionary force (the BEF) to the Continent again as in 1914.

    The Anglo-French plan was to stay on the defensive while strangling Germany with economic warfare. They would then use their superior resources (Britain and France had a GDP 60% larger than Germany and Italy) to eventually overwhelm Germany. This was in effect what had worked in WW1, and the defensive mindset was common to a generation of leaders who had cut their teeth fighting the exceptionally skilled German army and had no desire to repeat the horrors of the Somme and Verdun.

    Yes, obviously this meant that they never intended to lift a finger for Poland. Too bad for the idiot Poles for being duped by the West.

    Unfortunately for their clever plan, the French were unexpectedly completely defeated. In fact, while the Entente expected Poland's defeat, they also thought Poland would hold out for three months rather than three weeks.

    The British were still focused on their strategic bombing plan (which ultimately developed into a terrifying weapon), but were forced to improvise. As German_reader pointed out, obviously the British alone invading Europe (right after losing all their army's heavy equipment) to face the entire German army was suicidal.

    In fact the British never wanted to invade Europe again at all after the Fall of France except in peripheral actions meant to advance postwar British strategic interests. They had to be dragooned into invading Europe by America, which was more eager to fight and had superior resources.

    In fairness to the British their strategic bombing plan was sound as demonstrated by the Battle of the Ruhr.

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson, @LondonBob, @Gerard2

    thanks for that – very interesting. Big and lazy errors from myself about oil production during the war – my apologies!

  98. German_reader says:
    @Thorfinnsson
    @German_reader

    The current, bizarre Jewish campaign against Poland is a case in point--and exceptionally weird.

    If anyone can compete with the Jews in WW2 victimhood it's the Poles.

    But now we learn that Poland shoah'd the SIX MILLION...

    Replies: @German_reader, @utu

    The current, bizarre Jewish campaign against Poland is a case in point–and exceptionally weird.

    Much weirder though imo is that there’s so much gentile support for Jewish nationalism, even though there’s almost zero reciprocity.
    There are tons of gentiles who get very, very emotionally invested in their defense of Israel and Zionism, not least on the so-called right (it’s of course especially bad in the US where things are just grotesque, but there are many such people in Europe as well, across the political spectrum). I don’t understand the psychology of those people.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    @German_reader

    The successful "Judeo-Christian" psyop along with the suppression of negative information about the Jews explains this.

    To the ignorant but patriotic Westerner Israel appears to be a kind of fellow Western country struggling against evil Muslims and demented liberals. This sort of person is completely unaware of the fact that Jews (at least diaspora Jews) hate him.

    The situation in America is particularly bad owing to the sheer number of Jews here as well as the weird heresy of Christian Zionism.

    There is admittedly some reciprocity from Israel itself lately. Netanyahu has been cozying up with the Visegrad group, Trump, Bolsonaro, etc. This draws outraged condemnation from the diaspora.

    , @Denis
    @German_reader

    It is because they are projecting their nationalist inclinations wrt their own countries onto Israel.

    From the point of view of an uninformed westerner (especially in the Anglosphere), Israeli Jews are a group of white, pseudo-Christian people fighting a bunch of brown Muslims. Throughout the west, it is more-or-less socially unacceptable (for white people) to complain about non-white immigration, or to express any sentiment that could possibly be construed as racism; so, those who hold those sentiments but can't express them properly project them onto Israel, since supporting Israel is perfectly acceptable. In doing so, they use Israel, which they imagine to be a semi-western, semi-Christian country, as a proxy for their own country. This is why they get as emotional as they do; they are (probably subconsciously) mentally substituting Israel and Israelis for their own countries and their own people.

    It's pretty retarded.

    Replies: @Byrresheim

    , @Dmitry
    @German_reader

    Israel's actual reality is painful, frustrating tolerance and liberalism anyway, where people who hate each other are forced to live together. And it's one of the most multicultural and multi-religious countries, which is exactly what creates nationalist tensions and violence there. It's a multiethnic nightmare - opposite of what voters actually want (homogeneous, conflictless, European countries, like Poland or Hungary).

    To go back to Israel and AfD.

    Israel's main problem in external policy, is that it has very bad relations with most Muslim countries, and moderately bad one with liberal countries.

    Israel's diplomatic priority should be to improve its relationship with Muslim - within limitations of its being in conflict with Muslims.

    That's one of the most important things for Israel's survival - to improve its relations with Muslim countries.

    So Israel should definitely not try to create relationships with anti-Muslim European political parties, unless those parties are going to be influential in the government of their countries, preferably powerful countries.

    As long as anti-Muslim parties are in the opposition, Israel will be idiots to be associated with them.

    -

    As a similar lesson - Russia should not associate with opposition political parties in Europe, anti-Muslim or pro-Muslim, unless they will actually win an election and become powerful. When Russian government officials were associating with political losers like Marine Le Pen, the effect was both bad for Marine Le Pen, and bad for Russian external policy (reducing its influence) in France.

    Replies: @German_reader

  99. @German_reader
    @Thorfinnsson


    The current, bizarre Jewish campaign against Poland is a case in point–and exceptionally weird.
     
    Much weirder though imo is that there's so much gentile support for Jewish nationalism, even though there's almost zero reciprocity.
    There are tons of gentiles who get very, very emotionally invested in their defense of Israel and Zionism, not least on the so-called right (it's of course especially bad in the US where things are just grotesque, but there are many such people in Europe as well, across the political spectrum). I don't understand the psychology of those people.

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson, @Denis, @Dmitry

    The successful “Judeo-Christian” psyop along with the suppression of negative information about the Jews explains this.

    To the ignorant but patriotic Westerner Israel appears to be a kind of fellow Western country struggling against evil Muslims and demented liberals. This sort of person is completely unaware of the fact that Jews (at least diaspora Jews) hate him.

    The situation in America is particularly bad owing to the sheer number of Jews here as well as the weird heresy of Christian Zionism.

    There is admittedly some reciprocity from Israel itself lately. Netanyahu has been cozying up with the Visegrad group, Trump, Bolsonaro, etc. This draws outraged condemnation from the diaspora.

  100. @for-the-record
    @reiner Tor

    Orbán also seems to consider this strategy: trying to get the Israeli Jews on his side

    On the other hand (hope you have deep pockets):


    DC court says Holocaust survivors can sue Hungary in the US for huge reparations

    The second-highest court in the United States has reinstated a lawsuit brought by a group of Holocaust survivors and their families against the government of Hungary and its national railroad. The class action suit demands restitution for the role Hungary played in the murder of 500,000 Jews and the seizure of their property during World War II.

    Setting the stage for what could be a landmark civil suit running into the tens of billions of dollars, Judge Patricia A. Millett wrote for the US Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit on December 28 that Hungary could not force the plaintiffs to have the case tried in a Hungarian court.

    The decision overturned that of a federal judge who ruled that the 1947 Paris Peace Treaty between Hungary and the Allied powers granted Hungary immunity. . .

    Over the past 20 years, the Hungarian government has made a pretense of allowing Hungarian Holocaust victims to file claims for their losses, said Zell, but he called the payouts “tantamount to a joke.”

    . . . Zell said that the case against the Hungarian government and the national railway, Magyar Allamvasutak, could see a significant financial claim filed on behalf of Jewish Holocaust survivors.

    “We didn’t put a number in this case, but if it goes forward we’ll be asking for tens of billions of dollars of compensation, which is the amount that would be owed based on the value of the property that was taken at the time of the deportations to the camps,” said Zell. . .

    If the case makes it all the way to a final judgment, the plaintiffs would likely seek satisfaction from Hungarian assets in the US or elsewhere, said Zell.

    https://www.timesofisrael.com/dc-court-says-holocaust-survivors-can-sue-hungary-in-the-us-for-huge-reparations/
     

    Replies: @reiner Tor

    This court case has been going on for at least five (or maybe ten?) years now. It has been thrown out of court at least once, though it’s probably the furthest it has ever come.

    The case itself seems to be, on the face of it, quite ridiculous: they are suing the Hungarian State Railways for its role in the holocaust. I mean, it’s not like the state railways company was in any position to make decisions or anything. Regarding the Hungarian government. It’s not like Hungary (whose lawful prime minister had to hide in the Turkish embassy, and then was arrested by the Germans and sent to Mauthausen) was in any position to resist the Germans. Regarding the lost property: all Hungarian citizens lost all or most of their property between 1944 and 1961 (the final collectivization), and they didn’t regain any of it. Regarding the amount demanded: sure, it’s like present-day Hungarians (the oldest of whom were all very young in 1944) should pay a year of their GDP to a few hundred or thousand survivors, or the descendants of the survivors (who arguably didn’t suffer anything – they were born after the thing happened…)

    If the goal was to increase anti-Semitism, then sure, dude.

    • Replies: @for-the-record
    @reiner Tor

    they are suing the Hungarian State Railways for its role in the holocaust. I mean, it’s not like the state railways company was in any position to make decisions or anything

    Well, French and Dutch national railways accepted to pay reparations (in the case of the SNCF, to Holocaust survivors in the US), and they were defeated countries not allies of Germany. So my guess is that Hungary is going to have to go a very long way to ingratiate itself with the US/Israel to avoid a massive settlement.

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @Grahamsno(G64)

  101. @Dmitry
    @Anonymous

    I agree Trump is very clever in marketing (I was sure he was going to be President already when I first saw him talking about it in 2012 in YouTube).

    However, he is not cynical. He believes his policies, like tariffs, Israel and border walls.

    Some of these are consistent for all his life. You can see him discussing trade protectionism in the 1980s on television.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SEPs17_AkTI

    With Israel, the reason everyone knew he was going to be the most pro-Israel American president (before he became president), was because he was personally funding Israeli settlements since 1981.

    His name is in townsquares in two settlements in Israel as a largest donor to their establishment

    https://i.imgur.com/VDEY0Sy.jpg?1

    He wins awards like:


    https://i.imgur.com/4wy3w8n.jpg

    He led "Salute to Israel" parade in 2004 (lol how does this exist?)


    https://i.imgur.com/yGgLMVB.jpg

    In 2006, he spent $44 million to buy land in Israel


    Donald Trump completes $44m purchase of Elite site
     
    https://en.globes.co.il/en/article-1000105798


    Just searching now for this topic, and saw he bought 4 ambulance cycles for Israel in 2014 (there's probably a lot more things like this):


    Beer will be meeting with Trump at his office tomorrow to get the check that will pay for the four new ambucycles.
    Beer commended Trump for his donation, adding “he is a true lover of Israel.”
     
    https://www.vosizneias.com/154841/2014/02/10/new-york-trump-to-donate-rescue-bikes-to-israels-united-hatzalah/

    Replies: @Gerard2

    but are you saying that he’s so pro-Israel that it accounts for his heavily anti-Russia policy( in that Russia is aligned with Syria and semi-aligned with Iran)? Or that he’s forced into this by the rest of American apparatus?

    As for Russia and Israel – I’ve always viewed the relationship as broadly , positive, but Israel have at times assisted either the state or individuals in Gruzia and Ukraine that are hostile to Russia….and I did note with interest that when practically every western state sent their most important leaders to Shimon Peres’s funeral…..not a single one of Russia’s big politicians went there – not VVP,Medvedev, Lavrov, Matvienko, Volodin . Obviously the US sent everyone, Fra, Spain, Germany ,UK, Italy all sent their PM/Presidents and constitutional monarchs – but nobody for Russia

    Poroshenko did though, laughably go to that march in Paris in solidarity over the Charlie Hebdo killings .

  102. Major General JFC Fuller wrote a few books on the American Civil War, for a strictly military assessment then you can’t beat the analysis of arguably the twentieth century’s preeminent military theorist.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @LondonBob

    Thanks for the recommendations!

  103. Anon[219] • Disclaimer says:
    @Dmitry
    @Dmitry


    Netanyahu is less of an Israel partisan – he tried to return the Golan Heights to Syria more than one time.

     

    Apparently, it was two times:

    In 1998:
    http://www.danielpipes.org/311/the-road-to-damascus-what-netanyahu-almost-gave-away

    And in 2010:
    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/netanyahu-prepared-to-hand-back-golan-heights-to-syria-in-return-for-peace-say-reports-8209612.html

    It would have destroyed his popularity - Israel has its only ski resort there.

    Replies: @Anon, @DFH, @JL

    Yeah, most people get very tense when they have to ski abroad. I mean, look at the Saudis and Qataris – they have to make artificial snow! And the shithole countries, without any kind of snow, real or artificial, are SO SAD!

    And the lack of ski resorts is even more painful if you are talking about Jews, some of the most sporty characters this planet has spawned.

    Just like the Saudi entity has spread over the last 150 years from nothing, the Jewish entity is spreading its creep in its proximity. Luckily, they are both in a place cursed by nature and inhabited by morons, so almost no one care about the precise border, and the few who don’t like it, can’t do much. If they would visit us only for ski and snow, the rest of the world would be a better place.

  104. @reiner Tor
    @Anonymous

    Jewish crypsis means that they always have to adapt ideologies which are not explicitly pro-Jewish, only implicitly so. But the ideologies have lives of their own, and they could always easily turn out ultimately anti-Jewish. For example Bolshevism turned out to be less good for the Jews than originally imagined. Similarly with multiculturalism, it will likely be negative for the Jews, longer term.

    But they never seem to be smart enough. They are not very good at universalistic thinking, and so they don’t really understand the direction of these ideologies even as they already start turning on them. See the numerous Jews supporting Bolshevism still in the early 1950s, long after it ceased being good for the Jews.

    Some Jews might already see it, but they still usually cling to some parts of the old and already useless (in fact, outright dangerous) ideology.

    Replies: @Dmitry

    See the numerous Jews supporting Bolshevism still in the early 1950s, long after it ceased being good for the Jews.

    It’s an autistic theory of mind.

    What you believe is influenced by emotions and this has a racial component particularly when minorities want stronger position in society. Ideologies which favor the latter,may have a more rosy emotional coloration (i.e. seem more attractive).

    But people cannot actually believe or not believe in truth of something, on basis of “racial interest and longterm conspiracies”. They believe it because they believe it is the true description of reality.

    Marxism was more religion than political theory, and like Christianity a Jewish-originated religion – (it’s structure almost the same as Christianity), whose liberation was universalist. And people who believed it, believed because they thought it was universally true and factual description of reality.

    It was designed for educated people of the era, designed to be easy to believe (supernatural explanations are hidden by Hegelian concepts like “dialectic”), and for Jews it gave opportunity to “completely assimilate” (covert to a kind living Christianity, rather than the formal one which no longer had influence in the world).

    Attraction of Marxism for Jews, precisely is to escape both their external and internal position as Jews, and dissolve into a universal faith and utopia.

    Minus utopia, of course, this is what will have occurred with much of (or most?) Jews believers of Marxism. Their grandchildren today, will usually be 3/4 Slavic, and their great-grandchildren, 7/8 Slavic.

    The “racial interest” to convert to Marxism was to dissolve an unpleasant and dangerous position as Jews, to become important citizens, and this is what happened for a large proportion of them.

    Similarly with multiculturalism, it will likely be negative for the Jews,

    Multiculturalism is intrinsically attractive for a large proportion of any population.

    Putin is not Jewish, but he loves multiculturalism almost as his main religion. Merkel is not Jewish, and loves it. Obama not Jewish and loves it.

    It was one of the ideologies which has included both sides of the Cold War. If you think this is only attractive to Jews, and not something intrinsically and universally attractive to a significant proportion of people, then you will soon be confused (unless you extend the conspiracy to include all these people like Putin and Merkel being controlled by Jews).

    Multiculturalism is definitely a “utopian” ideology though, and will soon collapse against reality in most countries.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @Dmitry


    Multiculturalism is definitely a “utopian” ideology though, and will soon collapse against reality in most countries.

     

    Because it's so utopian and unrealistic, it's going to be always attractive and almost ineliminable with a proportion of the public. Demand for utopian things is eternal.

    The way to solve will probably happen on the supply side - which would be substitution an equally utopian and unrealistic ideology for multiculturalism (as multiculturalism had earlier substituted for Marxism).

    I guess the new gay religion is already partly substituting, although it's too compatible with the multiculturalist religion, to push it out.

    Of course, ideologies cannot be created on this cynical basis. You need to actually believe them to create an effective ones.

    , @German_reader
    @Dmitry


    Multiculturalism is intrinsically attractive for a large proportion of any population.
     
    It's true that there is significant support for multiculturalism among white gentiles, and the importance of any Jewish influence on the emergence and spread of the concept can certainly be debated (though I believe it's not non-existent, see e.g. Horace Kallen). However imo you miss one important distinction. A white gentile in favour of multiculturalism and lax immigration controls will usually appeal to some abstract universalist ideal, there's no sense that he's in favour of it because it's good for his own group (usually he thinks he doesn't have a own group, the aspiration is that we'll all be merely "human"). By contrast, many Jews explicitly state that they're in favour of multiculturalism and high immigration because they think it's good for them as Jews (e.g. Yascha Mounk explicitly linked his support for mass immigration to his feeling of alienation as a Jew when growing up in Germany, and says things like "A society that is welcoming to Muslims, is also welcoming to Jews" - he's clearly arguing from perceived self-interest, and arguments of that kind are common among spokesmen of Jewish organizations).

    It was one of the ideologies which has included both sides of the Cold War.
     
    Multiculturalism and "antiracism" were around during the Cold war, but only exploded in significance after the Cold war. The 1980s were very different from what came later, a kind of Indian summer for the white world.

    Replies: @Dmitry

    , @reiner Tor
    @Dmitry


    It’s an autistic theory of mind.
     
    Projection. See:

    But people cannot actually believe or not believe in truth of something, on basis of “racial interest and longterm conspiracies”. They believe it because they believe it is the true description of reality.
     
    In reality, people usually find it easier to believe what is good for them or which is compatible with their other beliefs. In my experience Jews (and, to be honest, other highly committed nationalists - I have noticed similar things with Hungarian nationalists) often cannot imagine that what is good for them can be neutral or even negative for any universalistic metric.

    So Jews will not even notice that there is a difference between a Jew who explicitly argues that multiculturalism is good because it’s good for the Jews and a gentile white who argues that it’s good because it’s morally good. Interestingly, even you didn’t notice it. Contrary to your assertion, those Jews are rarely cynical, because of course they also use universalistic moral arguments. They don’t even notice that the two are not the same, or that at least in theory there could be a contradiction.

    Replies: @Dmitry

  105. @Dmitry
    @Dmitry


    Netanyahu is less of an Israel partisan – he tried to return the Golan Heights to Syria more than one time.

     

    Apparently, it was two times:

    In 1998:
    http://www.danielpipes.org/311/the-road-to-damascus-what-netanyahu-almost-gave-away

    And in 2010:
    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/netanyahu-prepared-to-hand-back-golan-heights-to-syria-in-return-for-peace-say-reports-8209612.html

    It would have destroyed his popularity - Israel has its only ski resort there.

    Replies: @Anon, @DFH, @JL

    Israel has its only ski resort there

    It’s like another Shoah!

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @DFH

    They have missiles on them there so

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_dsh1ZBY4Q

  106. @Dmitry
    @reiner Tor


    See the numerous Jews supporting Bolshevism still in the early 1950s, long after it ceased being good for the Jews.

     

    It's an autistic theory of mind.

    What you believe is influenced by emotions and this has a racial component particularly when minorities want stronger position in society. Ideologies which favor the latter,may have a more rosy emotional coloration (i.e. seem more attractive).

    But people cannot actually believe or not believe in truth of something, on basis of "racial interest and longterm conspiracies". They believe it because they believe it is the true description of reality.

    Marxism was more religion than political theory, and like Christianity a Jewish-originated religion - (it's structure almost the same as Christianity), whose liberation was universalist. And people who believed it, believed because they thought it was universally true and factual description of reality.

    It was designed for educated people of the era, designed to be easy to believe (supernatural explanations are hidden by Hegelian concepts like "dialectic"), and for Jews it gave opportunity to "completely assimilate" (covert to a kind living Christianity, rather than the formal one which no longer had influence in the world).

    Attraction of Marxism for Jews, precisely is to escape both their external and internal position as Jews, and dissolve into a universal faith and utopia.

    Minus utopia, of course, this is what will have occurred with much of (or most?) Jews believers of Marxism. Their grandchildren today, will usually be 3/4 Slavic, and their great-grandchildren, 7/8 Slavic.

    The "racial interest" to convert to Marxism was to dissolve an unpleasant and dangerous position as Jews, to become important citizens, and this is what happened for a large proportion of them.


    Similarly with multiculturalism, it will likely be negative for the Jews,

     

    Multiculturalism is intrinsically attractive for a large proportion of any population.

    Putin is not Jewish, but he loves multiculturalism almost as his main religion. Merkel is not Jewish, and loves it. Obama not Jewish and loves it.

    It was one of the ideologies which has included both sides of the Cold War. If you think this is only attractive to Jews, and not something intrinsically and universally attractive to a significant proportion of people, then you will soon be confused (unless you extend the conspiracy to include all these people like Putin and Merkel being controlled by Jews).

    Multiculturalism is definitely a "utopian" ideology though, and will soon collapse against reality in most countries.

    Replies: @Dmitry, @German_reader, @reiner Tor

    Multiculturalism is definitely a “utopian” ideology though, and will soon collapse against reality in most countries.

    Because it’s so utopian and unrealistic, it’s going to be always attractive and almost ineliminable with a proportion of the public. Demand for utopian things is eternal.

    The way to solve will probably happen on the supply side – which would be substitution an equally utopian and unrealistic ideology for multiculturalism (as multiculturalism had earlier substituted for Marxism).

    I guess the new gay religion is already partly substituting, although it’s too compatible with the multiculturalist religion, to push it out.

    Of course, ideologies cannot be created on this cynical basis. You need to actually believe them to create an effective ones.

  107. German_reader says:
    @Dmitry
    @reiner Tor


    See the numerous Jews supporting Bolshevism still in the early 1950s, long after it ceased being good for the Jews.

     

    It's an autistic theory of mind.

    What you believe is influenced by emotions and this has a racial component particularly when minorities want stronger position in society. Ideologies which favor the latter,may have a more rosy emotional coloration (i.e. seem more attractive).

    But people cannot actually believe or not believe in truth of something, on basis of "racial interest and longterm conspiracies". They believe it because they believe it is the true description of reality.

    Marxism was more religion than political theory, and like Christianity a Jewish-originated religion - (it's structure almost the same as Christianity), whose liberation was universalist. And people who believed it, believed because they thought it was universally true and factual description of reality.

    It was designed for educated people of the era, designed to be easy to believe (supernatural explanations are hidden by Hegelian concepts like "dialectic"), and for Jews it gave opportunity to "completely assimilate" (covert to a kind living Christianity, rather than the formal one which no longer had influence in the world).

    Attraction of Marxism for Jews, precisely is to escape both their external and internal position as Jews, and dissolve into a universal faith and utopia.

    Minus utopia, of course, this is what will have occurred with much of (or most?) Jews believers of Marxism. Their grandchildren today, will usually be 3/4 Slavic, and their great-grandchildren, 7/8 Slavic.

    The "racial interest" to convert to Marxism was to dissolve an unpleasant and dangerous position as Jews, to become important citizens, and this is what happened for a large proportion of them.


    Similarly with multiculturalism, it will likely be negative for the Jews,

     

    Multiculturalism is intrinsically attractive for a large proportion of any population.

    Putin is not Jewish, but he loves multiculturalism almost as his main religion. Merkel is not Jewish, and loves it. Obama not Jewish and loves it.

    It was one of the ideologies which has included both sides of the Cold War. If you think this is only attractive to Jews, and not something intrinsically and universally attractive to a significant proportion of people, then you will soon be confused (unless you extend the conspiracy to include all these people like Putin and Merkel being controlled by Jews).

    Multiculturalism is definitely a "utopian" ideology though, and will soon collapse against reality in most countries.

    Replies: @Dmitry, @German_reader, @reiner Tor

    Multiculturalism is intrinsically attractive for a large proportion of any population.

    It’s true that there is significant support for multiculturalism among white gentiles, and the importance of any Jewish influence on the emergence and spread of the concept can certainly be debated (though I believe it’s not non-existent, see e.g. Horace Kallen). However imo you miss one important distinction. A white gentile in favour of multiculturalism and lax immigration controls will usually appeal to some abstract universalist ideal, there’s no sense that he’s in favour of it because it’s good for his own group (usually he thinks he doesn’t have a own group, the aspiration is that we’ll all be merely “human”). By contrast, many Jews explicitly state that they’re in favour of multiculturalism and high immigration because they think it’s good for them as Jews (e.g. Yascha Mounk explicitly linked his support for mass immigration to his feeling of alienation as a Jew when growing up in Germany, and says things like “A society that is welcoming to Muslims, is also welcoming to Jews” – he’s clearly arguing from perceived self-interest, and arguments of that kind are common among spokesmen of Jewish organizations).

    It was one of the ideologies which has included both sides of the Cold War.

    Multiculturalism and “antiracism” were around during the Cold war, but only exploded in significance after the Cold war. The 1980s were very different from what came later, a kind of Indian summer for the white world.

    • Agree: reiner Tor
    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @German_reader


    “A society that is welcoming to Muslims, is also welcoming to Jews” – he’s clearly arguing from perceived self-interest
     
    Jews can be a bit like Alawites in Syria. Assad government always talks about religious tolerance, secular state and multiculturalism of Syria.

    This is less utopian, than self-interest. (Only in secular, multinational, multireligious Syria, can Alawites with 10% of the population, rule over Sunnis with 80%). With Jews, there can be this cynicism as well.

    By far the funniest example of "cynical anti-racist" is Viatcheslav Kantor. He is an ordinary corrupt oligarch, who wants to secure his money by becoming internationally indispensable (like how Abramovich did with football). So renamed himself "Moshe" and suddenly discovered international role as a noble Jew and, anti-racist campaigner.

    However, I don't think most Jewish liberals in rich countries like America, are cynical in this. They are mainly quite utopian people, who had bourgeois families, studied in private schools, and very comfortable lives, where they never saw any wars or violence. All this creates soft, utopian people.

    Someone above says why they angry that Netanyahu is friends with Orban. The reason is because they are utopian and self-angelizing their image. Therefore if Israel is associated with Orban and Jews =Israel, their self-image is destroyed. (I understand why Orban has a bad image with American anti-racists, but why multinationalist Putin has is a mystery).

    Replies: @Epigon, @Hyperborean

  108. @DFH
    @Dmitry


    Israel has its only ski resort there
     
    It's like another Shoah!

    Replies: @Dmitry

    They have missiles on them there so

  109. @Thorfinnsson
    @German_reader



    shifted to what? Submarines would have been necessary anyway for the war against Britain, and the Luftwaffe remained a force used mostly for tactical support of ground troops, with all attempts at creating aircraft capable of strategic bombing unsuccesful and only pursued later in the war (and those weren’t just caused by considerations of the war against the western powers, there was also the idea of building an Uralbomber to strike Soviet industry in the Urals region).
     
    Between the Fall of France and the start of Barbarossa:

    • Massive capital investments--the largest investment boom in German history
    • U-boat production tripled
    • Aircraft production increased 40%
    • Aircraft manufacturing workforce grew 40% (effects of this not seen until 1942)
    • Munitions production was cut from 36% of expenditures to 20% (owing to large stocks--22m 10.5cm howitzer shells were in inventory in September, 1940)
    • Vehicles & weapons production increased 54%
    • Army's steel ration cut by one-third
    • Exports increased 25%

    The basic goal of Ruestungsprogramm B was to prepare for a long war against the Anglo-Americans while still increasing the striking power of the army, which was done by doubling the number of Panzer divisions and increasing the amount of artillery guns in the infantry. This was done on the cheap by restricting the production of munitions as excess stocks had been produced in advance of the invasion of France. The freed resources were allocated to capital investments, the navy, and exports.

    The capital investments should be further explained. Gigantic investments had already begun in 1938, but after the Fall of France the largest investments ever in German history (relative terms) were made. Nothing of the sort occurred in Britain or the USSR (though the USA made gigantic investments). These investments were all made for the global war against the Anglo-Americans.

    Some of the investments made include:

    • Henschel & Sohn added 100,000 square meters of factory floor space in Kassel
    • Nibelungen tank factory constructed in St Valentin, Austria
    • Vomag in Plauen and Maschinenfabrik Niedersachsen works converted to tank production
    • IG Farben commenced construction on fuel plants to raise production from 4.3m tons to 10m by 1945
    • Work began on the Auschwitz factory complex, a 1.3bn Reichsmark investment (13bn Euros today)
    • 2.5bn Reichsmarks on other chemicals projects
    • 400m Reichsmark investment to raise Norwegian aluminum production from 46,000 tons to 200,000 tons by 1944
    • 1.5bn Reichsmark investment to increase Grossraum aluminum production to 1m tons
    • 685m Reichsmark investment to build the Flugmotorenwerk Ost in Austria with a planned output of 1,000 aero engines per month (this turned into a fiasco)
    • 170m Reichsmark investment to increase production of Daimler-Benz inverted V-12 aero engines at Genshagen (major success--actual output reached over 1,200 engines per month in 1944)
    • 5.2bn Reichsmarks into all Luftwaffe industries from 1939-1942 (explains much of the "armaments miracle")

    In the absence of American involvement, perhaps more would've been allocated to current weapons production. Alternatively, Britain and the USSR would've faced a massive flood of German production in 1943 and later without a corresponding flood of American production.

    Figures are from Adam Tooze's book The Wages of Destruction.


    Given how absurdly confident Hitler and his generals were of victory in June/July 1941 (they really thought the Soviet Union would collapse in a few weeks), this seems likely to me.
    They really had no idea about Soviet capabilities. I’m currently reading a German book about the Wehrmacht, and the picture that emerges of Barbarossa is one of absolute hubris (e.g. the well-known fact that only a fairly small part of the Wehrmacht was motorized, the inferiority of German tanks to some Soviet designs, only compensated in 1941 by better German tactics, use of radio etc., the divisions destined for occupation duties in the rear being grotesquely under-manned and under-equipped, and much more).
     
    Monday morning quarterbacking is easy.

    The situation in the fall of 1940 was that the Luftwaffe had failed to defeat Britain, the Kriegsmarine was a tiny force, and Germany was facing a long global war against the vastly superior combined resources of the United States and British Empire. At the same time it was falling into dangerous dependence on the Soviet Union.

    Unlike the Luftwaffe, the German Army had seemingly proven itself as an apparently invincible war winning weapon. Conquering Russia would solve Germany's raw materials problem and provide it with all the resources it required to face the Anglo-American onslaught.

    While one shouldn't excuse German hubris and poor intelligence, the fact that the Red Army had assembled more tanks and aircraft than the rest of the world combined was certainly shocking to everyone. So too was the size of the Red Army and the ability of Soviet leadership to rapidly form divisions. The Germans had expected to face 200 divisions, but by the time Barbarossa concluded they had faced something like 700 Soviet divisions.

    A lot of very advanced Soviet weapons did appear in 1940-1941 (not just the T-34 but also the ZiS-2 57mm anti-tank gun, the M1939 85mm flak cannon, the A-19 122mm field gun, the Yak-3, etc.), but fortunately relatively little of it was in service in 1941. The Il-2 also entered service that year but Great Patriotic War mythology aside it was a bad aircraft and should not have entered service.

    Also working in favor of the invading Germans was the continuing presence in the Soviet high command of very big-brained individuals like Artillery Directorate Chief Grigory Kulik, who had the inventor of the automatic grenade launcher executed and considered land mines to be a weapon of cowards. One of the reasons the T-34s encountered in 1941 were not a threat (aside from bad training, bad manufacturing quality, and bad deployment) was that Kulik deliberately sabotaged their anti-tank armament by supply an inferior gun and reducing the allocation of shells to the tanks.

    It's true that the Wehrmacht was not motorized (and in fact progressively demotorized throughout the war), but the Red Army was not either. Obviously the lack of trucks caused enormous problems, but none the less the Germans advanced into the USSR in 1941 as fast as the Americans did into Iraq in 2003.

    Replies: @German_reader, @Gerard2, @Epigon, @Grahamsno(G64)

    While one shouldn’t excuse German hubris and poor intelligence, the fact that the Red Army had assembled more tanks and aircraft than the rest of the world combined was certainly shocking to everyone.

    Those “total numbers” are bogus when one looks at the breakdown by type, vintage and condition in June 1941.https://i.imgur.com/TcTCtCl.pnghttps://i.imgur.com/rolbqEC.png

    A lot of very advanced Soviet weapons did appear in 1940-1941 (not just the T-34 but also the ZiS-2 57mm anti-tank gun, the M1939 85mm flak cannon, the A-19 122mm field gun, the Yak-3, etc.)

    ZiS-2 – discontinued because German tanks similarly powerful to KV-3, KV-4 didn’t materialise – instead, thousands of Pz. II, Pz. 35, Pz. 38, Pz. III and Pz. IV with 30 mm frontal armour invaded.
    ZiS-2 had very high MV, high barrel wear, and would go right through them.
    T-34-57 Tank Destroyers were discontinued for the same reason.

    The most dangerous adversary for Allied and Soviet tankers – PaKs, Panzerjaeger detachments (both towed and self-propelled) and StuGs. Tank vs. tank warfare was advised against – Rommel, Guderian and Mainstein being explicit about it. In 1941 whenever Panzers met head-on with Soviet tank brigades, they suffered badly. The key in Barbarossa was being on the strategic offensive, attacking along unsuspected axes, deep-striking with Panzers at vulnerable targets and letting the Infantry mop up the survivors. Soviet mechanized corps would be ordered to counterattack, break encirclement, react to German advances and then go right into prepared German positions. Strategic offensive+high strategic mobility = Tactical defensive = Victory. Arracourt was the exact same thing, Americans reached same conclusions post-war.

    T-34 was actually supposed to be a pre-production/early version to learn the lessons and educate workshops. According to original planning, it was supposed to be replaced by T-34M starting with July 1941, and completely gone from production by November 1941. The L-11 armament you quote had no problems with early German AFVs – they were that thin-skinned.

    Yak-3 was introduced in 1944. Yak-1 was not even the standard fighter in 1941, let alone there being enough frontline pilots traind to use them – most were accustomed to I-153 biplane and I-16 monoplane.

    The Il-2 also entered service that year but Great Patriotic War mythology aside it was a bad aircraft and should not have entered service.

    Better CS than Ju-87. All CS aircraft are hopeless in conditions of hostile air superiority – Stuka suffered horribly both in 1940 over Low Countries and France, and in Channel and over Britain.

    One of the reasons the T-34s encountered in 1941 were not a threat (aside from bad training, bad manufacturing quality, and bad deployment) was that Kulik deliberately sabotaged their anti-tank armament by supply an inferior gun and reducing the allocation of shells to the tanks.

    Oh, but it was a threat. And a hell of a threat. You see, by far the most numerous AT weapons in the invading army were 3.7 cm PaK and KwK. They were useless against T-34 from all angles and at all combat ranges. The 5cm L/42 of tanks was inadequate as well, while L/60 needed either APCR or lucky side shot.
    More T-34 and KV-1 were destroyed by their own crews and abandoned than were lost in direct combat in 1941 – this being the key of the advantage the side which is on the strategic offensive enjoys – it gets the spoils of battlefield. This will become obvious in 1943, 1944 when German Heavy tank battalions suffer 30-40 tank losses in a single day – their repair shops got overran – and Germans didn’t count a tank as a loss until it disintegrated or was captured by enemy.
    So a horse-drawn, dominantly foot infantry army with puny 3000-something Panzers, PzJg, StPz and StuG, with light Panzer divisions with a single tank battalion (your vaunted doubling of number of Panzer divisions in 1940-1941 was achieved by halving the tank component per Pz. division) drastically outperformed the Big Cat, Wunderwaffe army of 1943-1945.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    @Epigon



    Those “total numbers” are bogus when one looks at the breakdown by type, vintage and condition in June 1941.
     
    Stated in my post:


    A lot of very advanced Soviet weapons did appear in 1940-1941 (not just the T-34 but also the ZiS-2 57mm anti-tank gun, the M1939 85mm flak cannon, the A-19 122mm field gun, the Yak-3, etc.), but fortunately relatively little of it was in service in 1941.
     


    ZiS-2 – discontinued because German tanks similarly powerful to KV-3, KV-4 didn’t materialise – instead, thousands of Pz. II, Pz. 35, Pz. 38, Pz. III and Pz. IV with 30 mm frontal armour invaded.
    ZiS-2 had very high MV, high barrel wear, and would go right through them.
    T-34-57 Tank Destroyers were discontinued for the same reason.
     
    True, but it was still a technically superb weapon and showed the high skill that Soviet weapons designers had achieved.

    The ZiS-2 also reentered service in 1943.


    Yak-3 was introduced in 1944. Yak-1 was not even the standard fighter in 1941, let alone there being enough frontline pilots traind to use them – most were accustomed to I-153 biplane and I-16 monoplane.
     
    First flight was however in 1941. I brought it up as an example of Soviet engineering prowess. The Yak-3 was one of the best designs of the entire war.

    Other modern fighters were in service (or entering) in 1941 such as the Yak-1, MiG-3, LaGG 3, etc.

    And yes, most types in service in 1941 were obsolete (in harmony with my previous point that little of the modern weaponry was in service at this time).


    Better CS than Ju-87. All CS aircraft are hopeless in conditions of hostile air superiority – Stuka suffered horribly both in 1940 over Low Countries and France, and in Channel and over Britain.
     
    Don't agree other than the elementary point of hostile air superiority. The Ju-87 was one of the very few aircraft of the war capable of true dive bombing, which allowed for pinpoint targeting. Rocket attacks by comparison had quite poor accuracy (as did the Il-2's signature anti-tank bomblets)..

    Large caliber airborne cannons had a lot of potential, but no belligerent in the war fielded a satisfactory platform. The Americans designed the excellent Beechcraft XA-38 Grizzly, but it was not introduced into service.


    Oh, but it was a threat. And a hell of a threat. You see, by far the most numerous AT weapons in the invading army were 3.7 cm PaK and KwK. They were useless against T-34 from all angles and at all combat ranges. The 5cm L/42 of tanks was inadequate as well, while L/60 needed either APCR or lucky side shot.
     
    Of course, as evidenced by the fact that the Germans ordered the development of new tank and anti-tank weapons in response. The T-34 was one of the most influential tanks of all time.


    So a horse-drawn, dominantly foot infantry army with puny 3000-something Panzers, PzJg, StPz and StuG, with light Panzer divisions with a single tank battalion (your vaunted doubling of number of Panzer divisions in 1940-1941 was achieved by halving the tank component per Pz. division) drastically outperformed the Big Cat, Wunderwaffe army of 1943-1945.
     
    And this ought to be the last word against military tech fanboys.

    Also, while the tank component of each Panzer division declined, the medium tank component did not. Recall that during Fall Gelb the most numerous German tank was the PzKw II.
  110. @German_reader
    @Dmitry


    Multiculturalism is intrinsically attractive for a large proportion of any population.
     
    It's true that there is significant support for multiculturalism among white gentiles, and the importance of any Jewish influence on the emergence and spread of the concept can certainly be debated (though I believe it's not non-existent, see e.g. Horace Kallen). However imo you miss one important distinction. A white gentile in favour of multiculturalism and lax immigration controls will usually appeal to some abstract universalist ideal, there's no sense that he's in favour of it because it's good for his own group (usually he thinks he doesn't have a own group, the aspiration is that we'll all be merely "human"). By contrast, many Jews explicitly state that they're in favour of multiculturalism and high immigration because they think it's good for them as Jews (e.g. Yascha Mounk explicitly linked his support for mass immigration to his feeling of alienation as a Jew when growing up in Germany, and says things like "A society that is welcoming to Muslims, is also welcoming to Jews" - he's clearly arguing from perceived self-interest, and arguments of that kind are common among spokesmen of Jewish organizations).

    It was one of the ideologies which has included both sides of the Cold War.
     
    Multiculturalism and "antiracism" were around during the Cold war, but only exploded in significance after the Cold war. The 1980s were very different from what came later, a kind of Indian summer for the white world.

    Replies: @Dmitry

    “A society that is welcoming to Muslims, is also welcoming to Jews” – he’s clearly arguing from perceived self-interest

    Jews can be a bit like Alawites in Syria. Assad government always talks about religious tolerance, secular state and multiculturalism of Syria.

    This is less utopian, than self-interest. (Only in secular, multinational, multireligious Syria, can Alawites with 10% of the population, rule over Sunnis with 80%). With Jews, there can be this cynicism as well.

    By far the funniest example of “cynical anti-racist” is Viatcheslav Kantor. He is an ordinary corrupt oligarch, who wants to secure his money by becoming internationally indispensable (like how Abramovich did with football). So renamed himself “Moshe” and suddenly discovered international role as a noble Jew and, anti-racist campaigner.

    However, I don’t think most Jewish liberals in rich countries like America, are cynical in this. They are mainly quite utopian people, who had bourgeois families, studied in private schools, and very comfortable lives, where they never saw any wars or violence. All this creates soft, utopian people.

    Someone above says why they angry that Netanyahu is friends with Orban. The reason is because they are utopian and self-angelizing their image. Therefore if Israel is associated with Orban and Jews =Israel, their self-image is destroyed. (I understand why Orban has a bad image with American anti-racists, but why multinationalist Putin has is a mystery).

    • Replies: @Epigon
    @Dmitry


    (I understand why Orban has a bad image with American anti-racists, but why multinationalist Putin has is a mystery).
     
    For the same reason they memed a Montenegrin atheist Yugocommunist and a former US banker as a Serb Ultranationalist Clerofascist, while presenting Islamists, Croat Ultranationalists and Albanian terrorists as anti-fascists, liberals, freedom-fighters and democrats.

    Ideology serves as a cover for geopolitical interests and "Realpolitik". The dogs barking about racism, fascism, dictators Putin, Assad, Maduro are useful idiots.
    You can't mobilise your nation for war by saying you want the resources, global power, installation of a puppet government - but start speaking about villains murdering babies in incubators, raping 300 000 women, killing 200 000 people in a year (US claim from 1993 on Serbs in Bosnia), gassing - barrel bombing clowns and hospitals and suddenly - the imbeciles start clamouring for intervention.

    , @Hyperborean
    @Dmitry


    Jews can be a bit like Alawites in Syria. Assad government always talks about religious tolerance, secular state and multiculturalism of Syria.

    This is less utopian, than self-interest. (Only in secular, multinational, multireligious Syria, can Alawites with 10% of the population, rule over Sunnis with 80%). With Jews, there can be this cynicism as well.
     
    The Syrian government is a supporter of secularism and protector of religious minorities, due to self-interest, but they also clearly define Syria as an Arab state.

    Aside from the fact that it is in the formal name of the country (Syrian Arab Republic), before the civil war the government used to stamp out Kurdish identity, like all the neighbouring states, due to fear of separatism and a desire to Arabise the country.

    However, I don’t think most Jewish liberals in rich countries like America, are cynical in this. They are mainly quite utopian people, who had bourgeois families, studied in private schools, and very comfortable lives, where they never saw any wars or violence. All this creates soft, utopian people.
     
    People who are uncomfortable with honestly thinking in terms of pure utilitarian morality (actions decided on whether this benefits me) can also fool themselves into believing something noble that just happens to support their interests.

    (I understand why Orban has a bad image with American anti-racists, but why multinationalist Putin has is a mystery).
     
    Aside from everything else, they really, really, hate hate hate Putin for things like Pussy Riot and the "law against proselytising homosexual propaganda" to minors.

    Replies: @Dmitry

  111. @LondonBob
    Major General JFC Fuller wrote a few books on the American Civil War, for a strictly military assessment then you can't beat the analysis of arguably the twentieth century's preeminent military theorist.

    Replies: @reiner Tor

    Thanks for the recommendations!

  112. Serbs somehow manage to be universally hated and demonised by Diaspora Jews, while having close and friendly relations with Israelites.

    In 1990s, Diaspora Jew dominated media and lobbysts somehow managed to present Serbs as Holocaust perpetrators, Nazis and fascists to general public in USA. This is even more impressive when one is aware of the fact that Serbs fought under Yugocommunist ideology and red star while Croats fought under Ustashe insignia, Ustashe banner, adopted Ustashe currency and Ustashe military units and ranks; Bosniaks happily embraced SS Handschar and Kama, Islamic declaration and Mujahedeen. Even today, when census data is freely available and undisputed, the propagandistic notion of Serb “genociders” and “ethnic cleansers” spread by “Free World” “Liberal Media” persists – 1+ million Serbs were cleansed from their homes from 1991 to 1999.

    At the same time, Israel sent military aid, equipment and intel (Jihadis, Mujahedeen, weapon shipments) to Serbs. The knowledgeable Israelis know that Judah Alkalai was inspired by Serb nationalist resurgence of 19th century, the same phenomena which influenced both the rabbi mentor the secular father of Herzl. Kingdom of Serbia was among the first nations to elevate Jews to equal rights, in addition to becoming the the first nation to support Balfour Declaration in 1917,

  113. @Dmitry
    @German_reader


    “A society that is welcoming to Muslims, is also welcoming to Jews” – he’s clearly arguing from perceived self-interest
     
    Jews can be a bit like Alawites in Syria. Assad government always talks about religious tolerance, secular state and multiculturalism of Syria.

    This is less utopian, than self-interest. (Only in secular, multinational, multireligious Syria, can Alawites with 10% of the population, rule over Sunnis with 80%). With Jews, there can be this cynicism as well.

    By far the funniest example of "cynical anti-racist" is Viatcheslav Kantor. He is an ordinary corrupt oligarch, who wants to secure his money by becoming internationally indispensable (like how Abramovich did with football). So renamed himself "Moshe" and suddenly discovered international role as a noble Jew and, anti-racist campaigner.

    However, I don't think most Jewish liberals in rich countries like America, are cynical in this. They are mainly quite utopian people, who had bourgeois families, studied in private schools, and very comfortable lives, where they never saw any wars or violence. All this creates soft, utopian people.

    Someone above says why they angry that Netanyahu is friends with Orban. The reason is because they are utopian and self-angelizing their image. Therefore if Israel is associated with Orban and Jews =Israel, their self-image is destroyed. (I understand why Orban has a bad image with American anti-racists, but why multinationalist Putin has is a mystery).

    Replies: @Epigon, @Hyperborean

    (I understand why Orban has a bad image with American anti-racists, but why multinationalist Putin has is a mystery).

    For the same reason they memed a Montenegrin atheist Yugocommunist and a former US banker as a Serb Ultranationalist Clerofascist, while presenting Islamists, Croat Ultranationalists and Albanian terrorists as anti-fascists, liberals, freedom-fighters and democrats.

    Ideology serves as a cover for geopolitical interests and “Realpolitik”. The dogs barking about racism, fascism, dictators Putin, Assad, Maduro are useful idiots.
    You can’t mobilise your nation for war by saying you want the resources, global power, installation of a puppet government – but start speaking about villains murdering babies in incubators, raping 300 000 women, killing 200 000 people in a year (US claim from 1993 on Serbs in Bosnia), gassing – barrel bombing clowns and hospitals and suddenly – the imbeciles start clamouring for intervention.

  114. Anonymous[151] • Disclaimer says:
    @German_reader
    @Anonymous


    but don’t you dare be friendly with some guy who said mean stuff about gays!
     
    In regards to Orban (or Polish right-wingers, or really any kind of European nationalist, no matter how moderate) the issue isn't homo stuff or other liberal pieties, but rather insufficient grovelling before the altar of eternal Jewish victimhood. The appointed role for Europeans here is that of descendants of Holocaust perpetrators who have to perpetually abase themselves, accept the multicultural restructuring of their societies (so Jews can feel safe/enact their vengeance), and are somehow exspected at the same time to swallow all the ahistorical myth-making of Zionists and uncritically support Israel (because Jewish nationalism is for some reason apparently the only legitimate nationalism).

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson, @Anonymous

    There may be some element of that (and she does invoke it later in the article), but Weiss specifically names Bolsonaro in the same breath as Orban; Brazil had 0 to do with the Holocaust, has historically been friendly to Jews, and on top of that Bolsonaro is a man with avowed pro-Zionist sympathies! And Weiss hates Trump (as do almost all Jewish neocons), and he is probably the most pro-Jewish pro-Israel the US has ever had.

    The Holocaust is a useful rhetorical tool because it is an issue on which Jews occupy an unassailable moral high ground, but it’s not something the average Jew/Israeli really cares about as it affects day to day life (Israelis have a warmer regard for Germany than vice versa in every poll I have seen). Orban and the Poles are not demonized because of the Holocaust, they are demonized because they refuse to give their full assent to American-style neoliberalism.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @Anonymous


    The Holocaust is a useful rhetorical tool because it is an issue on which Jews occupy an unassailable moral high ground, but it’s not something the average Jew/Israeli really cares about as it affects day to day life
     
    I don't think that's true, it's clearly a central element of the identity of many Jews (perhaps the central element for many of the more secular ones), it's not just pretended. And imo it couldn't be otherwise.

    Israelis have a warmer regard for Germany than vice versa in every poll I have seen
     
    They also reject any contact with a party like AfD because of its alleged "Nazi origins" (a party that was founded in 2013, when the youngest of Hitler's voters would have been 100); head of the Jewish World Congress Ronald Lauder has even called for the AfD to be banned. It's clear that any form of even moderate German nationalism is seen as unacceptable.

    Orban and the Poles are not demonized because of the Holocaust
     
    The things many Jews say about Poland are far too visceral to be merely the result of political calculation.

    Replies: @Dmitry, @Hyperborean

  115. @Epigon
    @Thorfinnsson


    While one shouldn’t excuse German hubris and poor intelligence, the fact that the Red Army had assembled more tanks and aircraft than the rest of the world combined was certainly shocking to everyone.

     

    Those "total numbers" are bogus when one looks at the breakdown by type, vintage and condition in June 1941.
    https://i.imgur.com/PQKCeKt.png
    https://i.imgur.com/TcTCtCl.png
    https://i.imgur.com/2uMWQSr.png
    https://i.imgur.com/rolbqEC.png

    A lot of very advanced Soviet weapons did appear in 1940-1941 (not just the T-34 but also the ZiS-2 57mm anti-tank gun, the M1939 85mm flak cannon, the A-19 122mm field gun, the Yak-3, etc.)
     
    ZiS-2 - discontinued because German tanks similarly powerful to KV-3, KV-4 didn't materialise - instead, thousands of Pz. II, Pz. 35, Pz. 38, Pz. III and Pz. IV with 30 mm frontal armour invaded.
    ZiS-2 had very high MV, high barrel wear, and would go right through them.
    T-34-57 Tank Destroyers were discontinued for the same reason.

    The most dangerous adversary for Allied and Soviet tankers - PaKs, Panzerjaeger detachments (both towed and self-propelled) and StuGs. Tank vs. tank warfare was advised against - Rommel, Guderian and Mainstein being explicit about it. In 1941 whenever Panzers met head-on with Soviet tank brigades, they suffered badly. The key in Barbarossa was being on the strategic offensive, attacking along unsuspected axes, deep-striking with Panzers at vulnerable targets and letting the Infantry mop up the survivors. Soviet mechanized corps would be ordered to counterattack, break encirclement, react to German advances and then go right into prepared German positions. Strategic offensive+high strategic mobility = Tactical defensive = Victory. Arracourt was the exact same thing, Americans reached same conclusions post-war.

    T-34 was actually supposed to be a pre-production/early version to learn the lessons and educate workshops. According to original planning, it was supposed to be replaced by T-34M starting with July 1941, and completely gone from production by November 1941. The L-11 armament you quote had no problems with early German AFVs - they were that thin-skinned.

    Yak-3 was introduced in 1944. Yak-1 was not even the standard fighter in 1941, let alone there being enough frontline pilots traind to use them - most were accustomed to I-153 biplane and I-16 monoplane.


    The Il-2 also entered service that year but Great Patriotic War mythology aside it was a bad aircraft and should not have entered service.
     
    Better CS than Ju-87. All CS aircraft are hopeless in conditions of hostile air superiority - Stuka suffered horribly both in 1940 over Low Countries and France, and in Channel and over Britain.

    One of the reasons the T-34s encountered in 1941 were not a threat (aside from bad training, bad manufacturing quality, and bad deployment) was that Kulik deliberately sabotaged their anti-tank armament by supply an inferior gun and reducing the allocation of shells to the tanks.
     

    Oh, but it was a threat. And a hell of a threat. You see, by far the most numerous AT weapons in the invading army were 3.7 cm PaK and KwK. They were useless against T-34 from all angles and at all combat ranges. The 5cm L/42 of tanks was inadequate as well, while L/60 needed either APCR or lucky side shot.
    More T-34 and KV-1 were destroyed by their own crews and abandoned than were lost in direct combat in 1941 - this being the key of the advantage the side which is on the strategic offensive enjoys - it gets the spoils of battlefield. This will become obvious in 1943, 1944 when German Heavy tank battalions suffer 30-40 tank losses in a single day - their repair shops got overran - and Germans didn't count a tank as a loss until it disintegrated or was captured by enemy.
    So a horse-drawn, dominantly foot infantry army with puny 3000-something Panzers, PzJg, StPz and StuG, with light Panzer divisions with a single tank battalion (your vaunted doubling of number of Panzer divisions in 1940-1941 was achieved by halving the tank component per Pz. division) drastically outperformed the Big Cat, Wunderwaffe army of 1943-1945.

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson

    Those “total numbers” are bogus when one looks at the breakdown by type, vintage and condition in June 1941.

    Stated in my post:

    A lot of very advanced Soviet weapons did appear in 1940-1941 (not just the T-34 but also the ZiS-2 57mm anti-tank gun, the M1939 85mm flak cannon, the A-19 122mm field gun, the Yak-3, etc.), but fortunately relatively little of it was in service in 1941.

    ZiS-2 – discontinued because German tanks similarly powerful to KV-3, KV-4 didn’t materialise – instead, thousands of Pz. II, Pz. 35, Pz. 38, Pz. III and Pz. IV with 30 mm frontal armour invaded.
    ZiS-2 had very high MV, high barrel wear, and would go right through them.
    T-34-57 Tank Destroyers were discontinued for the same reason.

    True, but it was still a technically superb weapon and showed the high skill that Soviet weapons designers had achieved.

    The ZiS-2 also reentered service in 1943.

    Yak-3 was introduced in 1944. Yak-1 was not even the standard fighter in 1941, let alone there being enough frontline pilots traind to use them – most were accustomed to I-153 biplane and I-16 monoplane.

    First flight was however in 1941. I brought it up as an example of Soviet engineering prowess. The Yak-3 was one of the best designs of the entire war.

    Other modern fighters were in service (or entering) in 1941 such as the Yak-1, MiG-3, LaGG 3, etc.

    And yes, most types in service in 1941 were obsolete (in harmony with my previous point that little of the modern weaponry was in service at this time).

    Better CS than Ju-87. All CS aircraft are hopeless in conditions of hostile air superiority – Stuka suffered horribly both in 1940 over Low Countries and France, and in Channel and over Britain.

    Don’t agree other than the elementary point of hostile air superiority. The Ju-87 was one of the very few aircraft of the war capable of true dive bombing, which allowed for pinpoint targeting. Rocket attacks by comparison had quite poor accuracy (as did the Il-2’s signature anti-tank bomblets)..

    Large caliber airborne cannons had a lot of potential, but no belligerent in the war fielded a satisfactory platform. The Americans designed the excellent Beechcraft XA-38 Grizzly, but it was not introduced into service.

    Oh, but it was a threat. And a hell of a threat. You see, by far the most numerous AT weapons in the invading army were 3.7 cm PaK and KwK. They were useless against T-34 from all angles and at all combat ranges. The 5cm L/42 of tanks was inadequate as well, while L/60 needed either APCR or lucky side shot.

    Of course, as evidenced by the fact that the Germans ordered the development of new tank and anti-tank weapons in response. The T-34 was one of the most influential tanks of all time.

    So a horse-drawn, dominantly foot infantry army with puny 3000-something Panzers, PzJg, StPz and StuG, with light Panzer divisions with a single tank battalion (your vaunted doubling of number of Panzer divisions in 1940-1941 was achieved by halving the tank component per Pz. division) drastically outperformed the Big Cat, Wunderwaffe army of 1943-1945.

    And this ought to be the last word against military tech fanboys.

    Also, while the tank component of each Panzer division declined, the medium tank component did not. Recall that during Fall Gelb the most numerous German tank was the PzKw II.

  116. German_reader says:
    @Anonymous
    @German_reader

    There may be some element of that (and she does invoke it later in the article), but Weiss specifically names Bolsonaro in the same breath as Orban; Brazil had 0 to do with the Holocaust, has historically been friendly to Jews, and on top of that Bolsonaro is a man with avowed pro-Zionist sympathies! And Weiss hates Trump (as do almost all Jewish neocons), and he is probably the most pro-Jewish pro-Israel the US has ever had.

    The Holocaust is a useful rhetorical tool because it is an issue on which Jews occupy an unassailable moral high ground, but it's not something the average Jew/Israeli really cares about as it affects day to day life (Israelis have a warmer regard for Germany than vice versa in every poll I have seen). Orban and the Poles are not demonized because of the Holocaust, they are demonized because they refuse to give their full assent to American-style neoliberalism.

    Replies: @German_reader

    The Holocaust is a useful rhetorical tool because it is an issue on which Jews occupy an unassailable moral high ground, but it’s not something the average Jew/Israeli really cares about as it affects day to day life

    I don’t think that’s true, it’s clearly a central element of the identity of many Jews (perhaps the central element for many of the more secular ones), it’s not just pretended. And imo it couldn’t be otherwise.

    Israelis have a warmer regard for Germany than vice versa in every poll I have seen

    They also reject any contact with a party like AfD because of its alleged “Nazi origins” (a party that was founded in 2013, when the youngest of Hitler’s voters would have been 100); head of the Jewish World Congress Ronald Lauder has even called for the AfD to be banned. It’s clear that any form of even moderate German nationalism is seen as unacceptable.

    Orban and the Poles are not demonized because of the Holocaust

    The things many Jews say about Poland are far too visceral to be merely the result of political calculation.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @German_reader

    In my opinion, at least that is clever - to reject contact with AfD. (Unless AfD seem to be winning an election).

    Putin has been in this stupid decision to have contact with opposition political parties, with government contact with both Marine Le Pen and AfD .

    Le Pen at least, will never be President, so there is no benefit for Russia. The cost of having this contact, was to make Russia and Putin more unpopular with the rulers and journalists of France.

    Merkel is subsidizing construction of Israeli submarines. So if Israeli leadership are not idiots, they should publicly support Merkel 100%, since she is paying for part of their nuclear deterrent.

    Because Israeli leadership* is believing similar things about Muslims, as AfD (you can see Yair Netanyahu's Twitter to imagine what they say in the Netanyahu house) - it probably itself means Israel should even try to avoid association with opposition like AfD or Le Pen even more

    -
    * Israeli television program, seems more or less the same as Fox News on this topic

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=amdtD6_JqLE

    Replies: @reiner Tor

    , @Hyperborean
    @German_reader


    I don’t think that’s true, it’s clearly a central element of the identity of many Jews (perhaps the central element for many of the more secular ones), it’s not just pretended. And imo it couldn’t be otherwise.
     
    For American Jews at least, the Shoah is the core of their identity. How would it change if we separated it into religious and non-religious Jews? I have a suspicion that secular Jews would care a lot more about it, simply because they have nothing else.

    https://www.pewforum.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/7/2013/10/jew-overview-9.png

  117. Other modern fighters were in service (or entering) in 1941 such as the Yak-1, MiG-3, LaGG 3

    Of these, only Yak-1 stood any modicum of chance against Bf-109F. MiG-3 and LaGG-3 were turkeys.
    It was not until Yak-3/9 and La-5/7 that Soviets matched contemporary Bf-109 and FW-190 models.
    P-39/63 was not Soviet, of course, but it was another very successful Soviet-employed fighter.

    The Yak-3 was one of the best designs of the entire war.

    In its niche role and altitude band, yes.

    However, if I had to choose which WW2 fighter I would fly to battle, I would narrow it down to P-47 or P-38. P-51 Mustang and its trumpeted superiority are part of Bomber Mafia narrative retouching.

    Don’t agree other than the elementary point of hostile air superiority. The Ju-87 was one of the very few aircraft of the war capable of true dive bombing, which allowed for pinpoint targeting.

    Ju-87, Douglas SBD Dauntless, Aichi D3A were dive bombers and employed successfuly. The key to their success was the air superiority they enjoyed. Once it was gone – Vals went down by the dozens with little to show for.

    Stuka was until G model not a good anti-armour, or CS plane due to light armament and lack of armour protection – it would get to the scene, drop its load and be gone. German analogue to Il-2 would probably be Hs-123.

    Rocket attacks by comparison had quite poor accuracy (as did the Il-2’s signature anti-tank bomblets)..

    Yes, achieving a direct-hit with fin-“stabilized” rockets – needed to destroy an AFV – 2-3% hit rates by post-battle evaluation crews. Soviet answer was practical – you drop dozens of bomblets across the general target area – just one hitting was often enough to disable the AFV.

    Large caliber airborne cannons had a lot of potential, but no belligerent in the war fielded a satisfactory platform. The Americans designed the excellent Beechcraft XA-38 Grizzly, but it was not introduced into service.

    Motorkanon solution of Germans, Soviets and P-39/63 was deadly – in my opinion, the German 30 mm already qualifies for large-caliber, and arguably, Soviet 23 mm does as well. In addition, Germans mounted 50 and 75 mm pneumatically and hydraulically operated guns to Hs-123 (semi-automatic, though), while I believe they fitted 50 mm to Me-410 in the Zerstoerer role.
    US 75 mm hand-operated in B-24 and B-25 in the Pacific was improvisation.

    Also, while the tank component of each Panzer division declined, the medium tank component did not. Recall that during Fall Gelb the most numerous German tank was the PzKw II.


    However, there were more Pz.38(t) in total because Slovakia used them as LT-38 in Barbarossa, and 1st Hungarian Tank Division was equipped with them as well – so the single most numerous Axis tank in Barbarossa was – Czech TNHP/Pz.38(t).

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    @Epigon



    Of these, only Yak-1 stood any modicum of chance against Bf-109F. MiG-3 and LaGG-3 were turkeys.
    It was not until Yak-3/9 and La-5/7 that Soviets matched contemporary Bf-109 and FW-190 models.
    P-39/63 was not Soviet, of course, but it was another very successful Soviet-employed fighter.
     
    All true, though in my view the largest problem with the VVS relative to the Luftwaffe was pilot training.

    In reading postwar memoirs of Luftwaffe pilots the assessments of the VVS are generally quite poor compared to the RAF and USAAF with certain exceptions.

    This isn't down to Russophobia either as assessments of the Red Army are generally positive (Tippelskirch and the Soviet zergling myth aside).


    In its niche role and altitude band, yes.

    However, if I had to choose which WW2 fighter I would fly to battle, I would narrow it down to P-47 or P-38. P-51 Mustang and its trumpeted superiority are part of Bomber Mafia narrative retouching.
     
    P-38 and P-47 were limited to Mach 0.68 and Mach 0.71 respectively in maneuvering. P-51 Mustang was Mach 0.78. Bf 109 and Fw 190 were 0.75.

    RAF test pilot Eric Brown on the the matter:


    We had found out that the Bf 109 and the FW 190 could fight up to a Mach of 0.75, three-quarters the speed of sound. We checked the Lightning and it couldn't fly in combat faster than 0.68. So it was useless. We told Doolittle that all it was good for was photo-reconnaissance and had to be withdrawn from escort duties. And the funny thing is that the Americans had great difficulty understanding this because the Lightning had the two top aces in the Far East.
     
    It should be added that as a twin-engine aircraft the P-38 was inherently less maneuverable than single-engine fighters. This was irrelevant when it first appeared as it was the fastest airplane in the world, but as the war went on its speed was surpassed by single-engine fighters. Fortunately that was generally not the case in the Pacific.

    The P-47 was simply too heavy. This did at least make it very rugged and a fast diver. Other than the lack of cannons it was well suited for the fighter-bomber role.

    Other than the unloved (by the Americans) P-39/63 and P-38 all American fighters were also inadequately armed.

    Which fighter you wish to take into battle of course depends on the battle. P-51D superiority was real for the 8th Air Force's mission. The Spitfire Mk XIV was arguably better than the P-51D, but it was short ranged and thus useless.

    If the P-51D had been tasked with the same mission as the Luftwaffe's fighters, it would've fared poorly owing to its weak armament. Six .50cal BMGs were fine against fighters, but not four-engine bombers.

    Ju-87, Douglas SBD Dauntless, Aichi D3A were dive bombers and employed successfuly. The key to their success was the air superiority they enjoyed. Once it was gone – Vals went down by the dozens with little to show for.

    Stuka was until G model not a good anti-armour, or CS plane due to light armament and lack of armour protection – it would get to the scene, drop its load and be gone. German analogue to Il-2 would probably be Hs-123.
     
    Types other than the Ju-87 weren't capable of vertical dive bombing, nor did they have the Ju-87's automatic dive recovery capabilities. They also weren't fielded in land warfare, being naval bombers.

    The ideal dive bomber for CS would've been something like the Boeing XF8B.

    Hs-129 was useful as it carried a heavy cannon armament less awkwardly than the Ju-87G and also used engines not in demand elsewhere. That said, hardly an ideal type given its low performance. I wonder if the Me-410 would've been good in this role.


    Yes, achieving a direct-hit with fin-“stabilized” rockets – needed to destroy an AFV – 2-3% hit rates by post-battle evaluation crews. Soviet answer was practical – you drop dozens of bomblets across the general target area – just one hitting was often enough to disable the AFV.
     
    Hit rates from the bomblets was also abysmal.


    Motorkanon solution of Germans, Soviets and P-39/63 was deadly – in my opinion, the German 30 mm already qualifies for large-caliber, and arguably, Soviet 23 mm does as well. In addition, Germans mounted 50 and 75 mm pneumatically and hydraulically operated guns to Hs-123 (semi-automatic, though), while I believe they fitted 50 mm to Me-410 in the Zerstoerer role.
    US 75 mm hand-operated in B-24 and B-25 in the Pacific was improvisation.
     
    Engine-mounted cannon solution was excellent, though it took time to mature. 30mm is I suppose relatively large caliber, but German aircraft with MK 108 cannons were used as fighters and bomber destroyers rather than in the close support role since it was a low velocity gun.

    There was a high velocity 30mm cannon (MK 103), but the Germans were unable to get it to work in the motorkanone role as it was apparently too large for the DB605 engine. The Soviet attempt engine mount a 45mm cannon also failed.

    50mm was indeed fitted to the Me-410 and also to the Me-262. I noted previously that the Me-410 might've done some good in the anti-armor role.

    The Italians, British, and Japanese also all experimented with large caliber cannons in the anti-shipping role.


    However, there were more Pz.38(t) in total because Slovakia used them as LT-38 in Barbarossa, and 1st Hungarian Tank Division was equipped with them as well – so the single most numerous Axis tank in Barbarossa was – Czech TNHP/Pz.38(t).
     
    Pz.38(t) was superior to PzKw II, though of course certainly not a medium tank.

    Replies: @Epigon

  118. Well that’s to be expected, Yang has said he is friends with Eric Turkheimer, one of the leading obscurantists, who has said that knowing about racial differences in intelligence would be akin to knowing how to make atomic bomb. The sort of “science” one would scrape off one’s boot if one were so unfortunate as to step in it

  119. @German_reader
    @Anonymous


    The Holocaust is a useful rhetorical tool because it is an issue on which Jews occupy an unassailable moral high ground, but it’s not something the average Jew/Israeli really cares about as it affects day to day life
     
    I don't think that's true, it's clearly a central element of the identity of many Jews (perhaps the central element for many of the more secular ones), it's not just pretended. And imo it couldn't be otherwise.

    Israelis have a warmer regard for Germany than vice versa in every poll I have seen
     
    They also reject any contact with a party like AfD because of its alleged "Nazi origins" (a party that was founded in 2013, when the youngest of Hitler's voters would have been 100); head of the Jewish World Congress Ronald Lauder has even called for the AfD to be banned. It's clear that any form of even moderate German nationalism is seen as unacceptable.

    Orban and the Poles are not demonized because of the Holocaust
     
    The things many Jews say about Poland are far too visceral to be merely the result of political calculation.

    Replies: @Dmitry, @Hyperborean

    In my opinion, at least that is clever – to reject contact with AfD. (Unless AfD seem to be winning an election).

    Putin has been in this stupid decision to have contact with opposition political parties, with government contact with both Marine Le Pen and AfD .

    Le Pen at least, will never be President, so there is no benefit for Russia. The cost of having this contact, was to make Russia and Putin more unpopular with the rulers and journalists of France.

    Merkel is subsidizing construction of Israeli submarines. So if Israeli leadership are not idiots, they should publicly support Merkel 100%, since she is paying for part of their nuclear deterrent.

    Because Israeli leadership* is believing similar things about Muslims, as AfD (you can see Yair Netanyahu’s Twitter to imagine what they say in the Netanyahu house) – it probably itself means Israel should even try to avoid association with opposition like AfD or Le Pen even more


    * Israeli television program, seems more or less the same as Fox News on this topic

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @Dmitry

    It’s one thing to avoid association with AfD, it’s another to actively denounce it to the point of actively pressuring Jews who had slightly friendly contacts to it. Israelis do the latter.

  120. A story to warm the heart of many here:

    New Zealand women wear headscarves in solidarity with Muslims after Christchurch shootings

    https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-03-22/headscarves-in-solidarity-with-muslim-women-after-mosque-attack/10929734

    Led of course by their Prime Minister:

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @for-the-record

    It's hard to have much respect for a society that produces pictures like that.

    Replies: @German_reader

    , @DFH
    @for-the-record

    White Shariah in action.

    Replies: @German_reader

    , @songbird
    @for-the-record

    Reminds me: the Swedish Migration Board has, in theory, opened up Sweden to all Chinese Uyghurs. There are about 11 million.

    Replies: @Grahamsno(G64)

  121. @reiner Tor
    @for-the-record

    This court case has been going on for at least five (or maybe ten?) years now. It has been thrown out of court at least once, though it's probably the furthest it has ever come.

    The case itself seems to be, on the face of it, quite ridiculous: they are suing the Hungarian State Railways for its role in the holocaust. I mean, it's not like the state railways company was in any position to make decisions or anything. Regarding the Hungarian government. It's not like Hungary (whose lawful prime minister had to hide in the Turkish embassy, and then was arrested by the Germans and sent to Mauthausen) was in any position to resist the Germans. Regarding the lost property: all Hungarian citizens lost all or most of their property between 1944 and 1961 (the final collectivization), and they didn't regain any of it. Regarding the amount demanded: sure, it's like present-day Hungarians (the oldest of whom were all very young in 1944) should pay a year of their GDP to a few hundred or thousand survivors, or the descendants of the survivors (who arguably didn't suffer anything - they were born after the thing happened...)

    If the goal was to increase anti-Semitism, then sure, dude.

    Replies: @for-the-record

    they are suing the Hungarian State Railways for its role in the holocaust. I mean, it’s not like the state railways company was in any position to make decisions or anything

    Well, French and Dutch national railways accepted to pay reparations (in the case of the SNCF, to Holocaust survivors in the US), and they were defeated countries not allies of Germany. So my guess is that Hungary is going to have to go a very long way to ingratiate itself with the US/Israel to avoid a massive settlement.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @for-the-record

    I don’t think it’s possible to appease them to the point that they stop the lawsuit. After all, those participating in it probably don’t care enough for Israel to renounce their billion dollar claims. People are rarely fanatical enough about anything that they would be willing to renounce billion dollar claims for it. The lawsuit is just a fact of life like an earthquake.

    Another interesting angle is American judicial overreach. When Belgium started issuing arrest warrants against people like Ariel Sharon, it was ridiculous. But America actually has the strength to make its courts the arbiters of justice about events which happened three quarters of a century ago in countries which the judges never saw (nor do they know particularly much about it from secondary sources), under circumstances unimaginable to them (or American legislators or law enforcement agencies), etc.

    One would think it’s dangerous for Jews to push the holocaust reparations issue any further at this point, but they don’t seem to care. Maybe they think they can pull it off forever. Or at least for several decades into the future. The latter seems certainly likely.

    Replies: @LondonBob, @for-the-record

    , @Grahamsno(G64)
    @for-the-record


    French and Dutch national railways accepted to pay reparations (in the case of the SNCF
     
    It is a very sweet deal in the case of SNCF

    Those who are heirs of survivors or spouses who died shortly after 1948 will get less than those who died in 2014. For instance, heirs of a survivor who died in 2014 will receive about $400,000.
     

    Adele Weltmann, 85, of Aventura, Fla., told The Jewish Week that she has collected from both the Orphans Fund and from the latest French reparation fund. She said that although both of her parents were transported by the French railroad to Nazi concentration camps, only her father was killed; her mother survived and lived until 1982.
     
    No business like the Shoah business

    https://jewishweek.timesofisrael.com/questions-over-fairness-of-new-french-reparations/
  122. @for-the-record
    A story to warm the heart of many here:

    New Zealand women wear headscarves in solidarity with Muslims after Christchurch shootings

    https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-03-22/headscarves-in-solidarity-with-muslim-women-after-mosque-attack/10929734

    Led of course by their Prime Minister:

    https://static.pressfrom.info/upload/images/real/2019/03/22/new-zealand-women-don-headscarves-to-support-muslims-after-shootings__420526_.jpg?content=1

    Replies: @German_reader, @DFH, @songbird

    It’s hard to have much respect for a society that produces pictures like that.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @German_reader

    It's also funny though how that pm shows so much of her hair, defeating the entire purpose of an Islamic headscarf.

    Replies: @Dmitry

  123. @German_reader
    @for-the-record

    It's hard to have much respect for a society that produces pictures like that.

    Replies: @German_reader

    It’s also funny though how that pm shows so much of her hair, defeating the entire purpose of an Islamic headscarf.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @German_reader

    She was originally a Mormon, but then she left church because Mormons do not support gay rights.

    What I don't understand about her, is how these relatively young people, who have never had profession or job, and do not even seem to have family connections, become the leaders of their country.

    Sebastian Kurz of Austria was the first one I saw. He has never had a job and has not completed even a university degree. Yet, he became Foreign Minister at age 27, and Chancellor of Austria at age 32.

    He is one of the least qualified people in Austria, and yet he is their leader?

    And this New Zealand woman, is very similar - although she is at least slightly more qualified (unlike Kurz, she was at least able to finish university degree in communications and politics).

    But she also seems not to have any job or profession in her life, but became leader of the country at age 36 years?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacinda_Ardern

    Replies: @German_reader, @WHAT

  124. @Epigon

    Other modern fighters were in service (or entering) in 1941 such as the Yak-1, MiG-3, LaGG 3
     
    Of these, only Yak-1 stood any modicum of chance against Bf-109F. MiG-3 and LaGG-3 were turkeys.
    It was not until Yak-3/9 and La-5/7 that Soviets matched contemporary Bf-109 and FW-190 models.
    P-39/63 was not Soviet, of course, but it was another very successful Soviet-employed fighter.

    The Yak-3 was one of the best designs of the entire war.

     

    In its niche role and altitude band, yes.

    However, if I had to choose which WW2 fighter I would fly to battle, I would narrow it down to P-47 or P-38. P-51 Mustang and its trumpeted superiority are part of Bomber Mafia narrative retouching.


    Don’t agree other than the elementary point of hostile air superiority. The Ju-87 was one of the very few aircraft of the war capable of true dive bombing, which allowed for pinpoint targeting.

     

    Ju-87, Douglas SBD Dauntless, Aichi D3A were dive bombers and employed successfuly. The key to their success was the air superiority they enjoyed. Once it was gone - Vals went down by the dozens with little to show for.

    Stuka was until G model not a good anti-armour, or CS plane due to light armament and lack of armour protection - it would get to the scene, drop its load and be gone. German analogue to Il-2 would probably be Hs-123.


    Rocket attacks by comparison had quite poor accuracy (as did the Il-2’s signature anti-tank bomblets)..
     
    Yes, achieving a direct-hit with fin-"stabilized" rockets - needed to destroy an AFV - 2-3% hit rates by post-battle evaluation crews. Soviet answer was practical - you drop dozens of bomblets across the general target area - just one hitting was often enough to disable the AFV.

    Large caliber airborne cannons had a lot of potential, but no belligerent in the war fielded a satisfactory platform. The Americans designed the excellent Beechcraft XA-38 Grizzly, but it was not introduced into service.
     

    Motorkanon solution of Germans, Soviets and P-39/63 was deadly - in my opinion, the German 30 mm already qualifies for large-caliber, and arguably, Soviet 23 mm does as well. In addition, Germans mounted 50 and 75 mm pneumatically and hydraulically operated guns to Hs-123 (semi-automatic, though), while I believe they fitted 50 mm to Me-410 in the Zerstoerer role.
    US 75 mm hand-operated in B-24 and B-25 in the Pacific was improvisation.

    Also, while the tank component of each Panzer division declined, the medium tank component did not. Recall that during Fall Gelb the most numerous German tank was the PzKw II.
     
    https://i.imgur.com/GG3DzFW.png

    However, there were more Pz.38(t) in total because Slovakia used them as LT-38 in Barbarossa, and 1st Hungarian Tank Division was equipped with them as well - so the single most numerous Axis tank in Barbarossa was - Czech TNHP/Pz.38(t).

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson

    Of these, only Yak-1 stood any modicum of chance against Bf-109F. MiG-3 and LaGG-3 were turkeys.
    It was not until Yak-3/9 and La-5/7 that Soviets matched contemporary Bf-109 and FW-190 models.
    P-39/63 was not Soviet, of course, but it was another very successful Soviet-employed fighter.

    All true, though in my view the largest problem with the VVS relative to the Luftwaffe was pilot training.

    In reading postwar memoirs of Luftwaffe pilots the assessments of the VVS are generally quite poor compared to the RAF and USAAF with certain exceptions.

    This isn’t down to Russophobia either as assessments of the Red Army are generally positive (Tippelskirch and the Soviet zergling myth aside).

    In its niche role and altitude band, yes.

    However, if I had to choose which WW2 fighter I would fly to battle, I would narrow it down to P-47 or P-38. P-51 Mustang and its trumpeted superiority are part of Bomber Mafia narrative retouching.

    P-38 and P-47 were limited to Mach 0.68 and Mach 0.71 respectively in maneuvering. P-51 Mustang was Mach 0.78. Bf 109 and Fw 190 were 0.75.

    RAF test pilot Eric Brown on the the matter:

    We had found out that the Bf 109 and the FW 190 could fight up to a Mach of 0.75, three-quarters the speed of sound. We checked the Lightning and it couldn’t fly in combat faster than 0.68. So it was useless. We told Doolittle that all it was good for was photo-reconnaissance and had to be withdrawn from escort duties. And the funny thing is that the Americans had great difficulty understanding this because the Lightning had the two top aces in the Far East.

    It should be added that as a twin-engine aircraft the P-38 was inherently less maneuverable than single-engine fighters. This was irrelevant when it first appeared as it was the fastest airplane in the world, but as the war went on its speed was surpassed by single-engine fighters. Fortunately that was generally not the case in the Pacific.

    The P-47 was simply too heavy. This did at least make it very rugged and a fast diver. Other than the lack of cannons it was well suited for the fighter-bomber role.

    Other than the unloved (by the Americans) P-39/63 and P-38 all American fighters were also inadequately armed.

    Which fighter you wish to take into battle of course depends on the battle. P-51D superiority was real for the 8th Air Force’s mission. The Spitfire Mk XIV was arguably better than the P-51D, but it was short ranged and thus useless.

    If the P-51D had been tasked with the same mission as the Luftwaffe’s fighters, it would’ve fared poorly owing to its weak armament. Six .50cal BMGs were fine against fighters, but not four-engine bombers.

    Ju-87, Douglas SBD Dauntless, Aichi D3A were dive bombers and employed successfuly. The key to their success was the air superiority they enjoyed. Once it was gone – Vals went down by the dozens with little to show for.

    Stuka was until G model not a good anti-armour, or CS plane due to light armament and lack of armour protection – it would get to the scene, drop its load and be gone. German analogue to Il-2 would probably be Hs-123.

    Types other than the Ju-87 weren’t capable of vertical dive bombing, nor did they have the Ju-87’s automatic dive recovery capabilities. They also weren’t fielded in land warfare, being naval bombers.

    The ideal dive bomber for CS would’ve been something like the Boeing XF8B.

    Hs-129 was useful as it carried a heavy cannon armament less awkwardly than the Ju-87G and also used engines not in demand elsewhere. That said, hardly an ideal type given its low performance. I wonder if the Me-410 would’ve been good in this role.

    Yes, achieving a direct-hit with fin-“stabilized” rockets – needed to destroy an AFV – 2-3% hit rates by post-battle evaluation crews. Soviet answer was practical – you drop dozens of bomblets across the general target area – just one hitting was often enough to disable the AFV.

    Hit rates from the bomblets was also abysmal.

    Motorkanon solution of Germans, Soviets and P-39/63 was deadly – in my opinion, the German 30 mm already qualifies for large-caliber, and arguably, Soviet 23 mm does as well. In addition, Germans mounted 50 and 75 mm pneumatically and hydraulically operated guns to Hs-123 (semi-automatic, though), while I believe they fitted 50 mm to Me-410 in the Zerstoerer role.
    US 75 mm hand-operated in B-24 and B-25 in the Pacific was improvisation.

    Engine-mounted cannon solution was excellent, though it took time to mature. 30mm is I suppose relatively large caliber, but German aircraft with MK 108 cannons were used as fighters and bomber destroyers rather than in the close support role since it was a low velocity gun.

    There was a high velocity 30mm cannon (MK 103), but the Germans were unable to get it to work in the motorkanone role as it was apparently too large for the DB605 engine. The Soviet attempt engine mount a 45mm cannon also failed.

    50mm was indeed fitted to the Me-410 and also to the Me-262. I noted previously that the Me-410 might’ve done some good in the anti-armor role.

    The Italians, British, and Japanese also all experimented with large caliber cannons in the anti-shipping role.

    However, there were more Pz.38(t) in total because Slovakia used them as LT-38 in Barbarossa, and 1st Hungarian Tank Division was equipped with them as well – so the single most numerous Axis tank in Barbarossa was – Czech TNHP/Pz.38(t).

    Pz.38(t) was superior to PzKw II, though of course certainly not a medium tank.

    • Replies: @Epigon
    @Thorfinnsson

    Regarding P-38 and P-47, you fell for a post-war propaganda effort.
    P-38 having counter-turning propellers meant it could outturn every single-engine fighter in the right turn.
    In addition, using differential throttle settings, P-38 flown by expert pilots (instructed by travelling advisers like Lindbergh) could outmaneuver even Japanese nimble fighters, the most maneuverable of the fighters employed in WW2 in “common knowledge”.
    No, the Americans knew what they were doing in Pacific - the British pilot was given crappy export P-38 without turbosuperchargers, and suffers from common British illness of Spitfiremania.

    And be certain that no fighter “maneuvered” at 0.75 Mach. This claim is very dubious by itself for P-47 - it was precisely P-47M which could threaten Me-262 via boom-and-zoom and shallow dive speed accumilation.

    Also, P-47 operating as a fighter-bomber was an atrocity. It was designed as a high-altitude, long-range interceptor and escort fighter maximizing energy fighting. The complex and expensive turbosupercharger it carried (engineering achievement and masterpiece) that enabled it to outperform supercharged competition was literally deadweight at low altitudes.

    Its fancy hydraulic control surfaces optimized for high-altitude, high-speed maneuvering was ill-suited for ground-level combat.

    The thing was very expensive (almost twice the price of Mustang), armoured, resistant to damage (air cooled radials vs. liquid cooled inlines) and heavily armed.

    Have a look yourself: https://chicagoboyz.net/archives/38801.html

    Comments are goldmine as well.

    https://chicagoboyz.net/archives/54434.html

    Also, Yugoslavia had post-WW2 late Spitfires, Yaks and P-47. P-47 winner in 9/10 situations. It could outclimb opposition post 6000 m altitude, accumulate energy due to higher ceiling and better high-altitude performance, build up speed via shallow dive and then prey upon hapless opposition in mock fights.

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson

  125. @German_reader
    @German_reader

    It's also funny though how that pm shows so much of her hair, defeating the entire purpose of an Islamic headscarf.

    Replies: @Dmitry

    She was originally a Mormon, but then she left church because Mormons do not support gay rights.

    What I don’t understand about her, is how these relatively young people, who have never had profession or job, and do not even seem to have family connections, become the leaders of their country.

    Sebastian Kurz of Austria was the first one I saw. He has never had a job and has not completed even a university degree. Yet, he became Foreign Minister at age 27, and Chancellor of Austria at age 32.

    He is one of the least qualified people in Austria, and yet he is their leader?

    And this New Zealand woman, is very similar – although she is at least slightly more qualified (unlike Kurz, she was at least able to finish university degree in communications and politics).

    But she also seems not to have any job or profession in her life, but became leader of the country at age 36 years?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacinda_Ardern

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @Dmitry


    although she is at least slightly more qualified (she has a university degree in communications and politics).
     
    That isn't a qualification, in fact having studied something like "communication studies" or "political science" should count as a big fat minus imo.
    It's not unusual though, many Western politicians today have been professional politicans for their entire lives, it's a very important reason for the degeneration of our societies that our "elites" consist of useless parasites who would be nothing without their party machines and their patronage networks.
    Also very disturbing that this woman has a Mormon background, something needs to be done to check the spread of that cult.

    Replies: @Dmitry

    , @WHAT
    @Dmitry

    Precisely because she is nothing. ZOG props her up and thus owns her completely, no need for child porn leverage even.

  126. German_reader says:
    @Dmitry
    @German_reader

    She was originally a Mormon, but then she left church because Mormons do not support gay rights.

    What I don't understand about her, is how these relatively young people, who have never had profession or job, and do not even seem to have family connections, become the leaders of their country.

    Sebastian Kurz of Austria was the first one I saw. He has never had a job and has not completed even a university degree. Yet, he became Foreign Minister at age 27, and Chancellor of Austria at age 32.

    He is one of the least qualified people in Austria, and yet he is their leader?

    And this New Zealand woman, is very similar - although she is at least slightly more qualified (unlike Kurz, she was at least able to finish university degree in communications and politics).

    But she also seems not to have any job or profession in her life, but became leader of the country at age 36 years?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacinda_Ardern

    Replies: @German_reader, @WHAT

    although she is at least slightly more qualified (she has a university degree in communications and politics).

    That isn’t a qualification, in fact having studied something like “communication studies” or “political science” should count as a big fat minus imo.
    It’s not unusual though, many Western politicians today have been professional politicans for their entire lives, it’s a very important reason for the degeneration of our societies that our “elites” consist of useless parasites who would be nothing without their party machines and their patronage networks.
    Also very disturbing that this woman has a Mormon background, something needs to be done to check the spread of that cult.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @German_reader

    Degrees in politics and communication, may not be intellectually difficult to attain - but she at least completed the course, unlike Sebastian Kurz.

    Both her Sebastian Kurz, have never had a job or profession though. But she has a university qualification, which can be a test of having normal IQ and literacy. She has something on her CV under "Education".

    Her ascension to become the most powerful person in her country at 37 years old, is shocking. And even Sebastian Kurz becoming leader of Austria at 32 years is even more shocking.


    our societies that our “elites” consist of useless parasites who would be nothing without their party machines and their patronage networks.
     
    But neither her nor Kurz, are from any elites, which is how it becomes even more difficult to understand.

    They don't study in prestigious schools, or have any important family. They never had jobs in their life. They have no academic or intellectual ability. They don't have unusual personalities, or charisma, or original policies. And they reach the country's highest position while they are 30s. (Kurz second highest position, while he was 20s). Lol wtf.


    Mormon background, something needs to be done to check the spread of that cult.

     

    Obviously, Mormon beliefs are idiotic even by religious standards. But their external behaviour can be desirable. Salt Lake City, for example, is described as one of the best cities to live in America.

    Replies: @Hyperborean, @Thorfinnsson

  127. @for-the-record
    A story to warm the heart of many here:

    New Zealand women wear headscarves in solidarity with Muslims after Christchurch shootings

    https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-03-22/headscarves-in-solidarity-with-muslim-women-after-mosque-attack/10929734

    Led of course by their Prime Minister:

    https://static.pressfrom.info/upload/images/real/2019/03/22/new-zealand-women-don-headscarves-to-support-muslims-after-shootings__420526_.jpg?content=1

    Replies: @German_reader, @DFH, @songbird

    White Shariah in action.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @DFH

    More like virtue-signalling gynocracy.

    Replies: @Grahamsno(G64)

  128. @DFH
    @for-the-record

    White Shariah in action.

    Replies: @German_reader

    More like virtue-signalling gynocracy.

    • Replies: @Grahamsno(G64)
    @German_reader

    She's also raising a bastard. I can't stand women who voluntarily raise bastards. It tells you how degenerate the west is that this fact wasn't even noticed something unthinkable outside the west - a female head of State raising a bastard!

  129. AP says:
    @DFH
    @Mr. Hack


    The principle is the same, only the scope of casualties is so very much larger.
     
    It's not similar at all: the atomic bombs were dropped out of military necessity (I realise people dispute this), massacring 100,000 Polish civilians was because of Ukranian nationalist fantasism and bloodlust

    Replies: @AP

    massacring 100,000 Polish civilians was because of Ukranian nationalist fantasism and bloodlust

    It was an evil crime but its reason was no worse than that of Hiroshima. Poland occupied those lands planned to get them back after the war. It also planned to ethnically cleanse them, of Ukrainians (at least,m the local Polish organization wanted this done). UPA took the initiative and ethnically cleansed them first, while they had the chance. They did not have bombers and atom weapons, they had peasants with crude weapons. But they were fighting for their lands, on their native soil, not bombing people thousands of miles away from their native lands. I do not justify what they did, but it wasn’t any worse than Anglo-American deliberate targeting and bombing of German or Japanese civilians.

    • Replies: @utu
    @AP

    "I do not justify what they did" - Yes, you do.

    Replies: @AP

    , @DFH
    @AP


    I do not justify what they did, but it wasn’t any worse than Anglo-American deliberate targeting and bombing of German or Japanese civilians.
     
    That's ridiculous. The aim of dropping the atomic bombs was to force the Japanese to surrender, avoiding hundreds of thousands of American soldiers dying in an invasion (or possibly even more Japanese civilians in a blockade), in a war started by Japanese aggression.
    Torturing and murdering tens of thousands of civilians who posed no military threat as part of a campaign to ethnically cleanse people who had been living there for hundreds of years is not the same.
    The reasons are not at all the same.

    Honestly, when the war in Ukraine started I was quite pro-Ukrainian but now I have grown to understand completely why people hate you (Ukrainian nationalists).

    Replies: @utu, @AP

    , @Matra
    @AP

    This is a very Diaspora Nationalist post.

    Replies: @AP

    , @Denis
    @AP


    UPA took the initiative and ethnically cleansed them first, while they had the chance.
     
    There are a great many instances of ethnic cleansing, and even genocide, that can be "justified" using the same reasoning.

    Replies: @AP

  130. @for-the-record
    A story to warm the heart of many here:

    New Zealand women wear headscarves in solidarity with Muslims after Christchurch shootings

    https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-03-22/headscarves-in-solidarity-with-muslim-women-after-mosque-attack/10929734

    Led of course by their Prime Minister:

    https://static.pressfrom.info/upload/images/real/2019/03/22/new-zealand-women-don-headscarves-to-support-muslims-after-shootings__420526_.jpg?content=1

    Replies: @German_reader, @DFH, @songbird

    Reminds me: the Swedish Migration Board has, in theory, opened up Sweden to all Chinese Uyghurs. There are about 11 million.

    • Replies: @Grahamsno(G64)
    @songbird


    Reminds me: the Swedish Migration Board has, in theory, opened up Sweden to all Chinese Uyghurs. There are about 11 million.
     
    The Chinese should just call their bluff and deport all 11 million of them to Sweden, a win, win situation the Chinese get rid of a troublesome minority and Sweden finally gets it chance to become the Islamic Emirate of Sweden. Hypercuckery in action.

    Replies: @Pericles

  131. @AP
    @DFH


    massacring 100,000 Polish civilians was because of Ukranian nationalist fantasism and bloodlust
     
    It was an evil crime but its reason was no worse than that of Hiroshima. Poland occupied those lands planned to get them back after the war. It also planned to ethnically cleanse them, of Ukrainians (at least,m the local Polish organization wanted this done). UPA took the initiative and ethnically cleansed them first, while they had the chance. They did not have bombers and atom weapons, they had peasants with crude weapons. But they were fighting for their lands, on their native soil, not bombing people thousands of miles away from their native lands. I do not justify what they did, but it wasn't any worse than Anglo-American deliberate targeting and bombing of German or Japanese civilians.

    Replies: @utu, @DFH, @Matra, @Denis

    “I do not justify what they did” – Yes, you do.

    • Replies: @AP
    @utu

    How so? Since UPA and OUN did not have access to internal Polish documents calling for the ethnic cleansing of those lands (and who knows if this wuld even have been attempted - the local Poles wanted to to do it but the government in exile rejected it), they murdered the Polish civilians in order to prevent the return of Polish rule. Although Polish rule was very unpleasant, it was not nearly sufficiently unpleasant to warrant the mass murder of massive numbers of civilians. There was thus no legitimate justification for this crime.

    My main point was not to justify what UPA did but to point out that their "justification" was no worse than that of the Anglo-Americans who were murdering German and Japanese civilians during that time. Sorry if I was not clear.

  132. @LondonBob
    @reiner Tor

    Shelby Foote's The Civil War: A Narrative.
    James MacPherson's Battle Cry of Freedom for a Northern perspective.

    Replies: @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan

    McPherson is good, but I prefer good old Bruce Catton for a Northern perspective.

  133. @AP
    @DFH


    massacring 100,000 Polish civilians was because of Ukranian nationalist fantasism and bloodlust
     
    It was an evil crime but its reason was no worse than that of Hiroshima. Poland occupied those lands planned to get them back after the war. It also planned to ethnically cleanse them, of Ukrainians (at least,m the local Polish organization wanted this done). UPA took the initiative and ethnically cleansed them first, while they had the chance. They did not have bombers and atom weapons, they had peasants with crude weapons. But they were fighting for their lands, on their native soil, not bombing people thousands of miles away from their native lands. I do not justify what they did, but it wasn't any worse than Anglo-American deliberate targeting and bombing of German or Japanese civilians.

    Replies: @utu, @DFH, @Matra, @Denis

    I do not justify what they did, but it wasn’t any worse than Anglo-American deliberate targeting and bombing of German or Japanese civilians.

    That’s ridiculous. The aim of dropping the atomic bombs was to force the Japanese to surrender, avoiding hundreds of thousands of American soldiers dying in an invasion (or possibly even more Japanese civilians in a blockade), in a war started by Japanese aggression.
    Torturing and murdering tens of thousands of civilians who posed no military threat as part of a campaign to ethnically cleanse people who had been living there for hundreds of years is not the same.
    The reasons are not at all the same.

    Honestly, when the war in Ukraine started I was quite pro-Ukrainian but now I have grown to understand completely why people hate you (Ukrainian nationalists).

    • Replies: @utu
    @DFH


    Honestly, when the war in Ukraine started I was quite pro-Ukrainian but now I have grown to understand completely why people hate you (Ukrainian nationalists).
     
    Poland is taking Ukrainian gastarbeiters and immigrants by millions w/o any gestures of contrition and atonements from Ukrainians for the Volhynia genocide. It is really hard to understand it.

    Replies: @WHAT, @JL, @AP

    , @AP
    @DFH


    That’s ridiculous. The aim of dropping the atomic bombs was to force the Japanese to surrender, avoiding hundreds of thousands of American soldiers dying in an invasion (or possibly even more Japanese civilians in a blockade)
     
    Sure. UPA wasn't even trying to invade Poland.

    in a war started by Japanese aggression.
     
    The Polish state had been occupying Ukrainian lands. It invaded and conquered them in 1918-1919. So that was how the aggression started.

    Torturing and murdering tens of thousands of civilians who posed no military threat
     
    Incinerating them as was done by Angl0-American bombers to German and Japanese civilians was better?

    The reasons are not at all the same.
     
    Anglo-Americans burned alive 100,000s of civilians hundreds or thousands of miles from their own home territory, to make their invasion of those lands easier. Ukrainian peasants organized by UPA massacred 60,000-100,000 civilians in an attmept to prevent their home territory from being occupied by a foreign state.

    now I have grown to understand completely why people hate you (Ukrainian nationalists)
     
    Not a Ukrianian nationalist, nor were any of my ancestors OUN or UPA members.

    Let me guess: as an Englishmen you have come to see these Ukrainians as being like the Irish.

    Replies: @szopen

  134. @reiner Tor
    @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan

    What is (are) the best book(s) about the American Civil War?

    Replies: @LondonBob, @German_reader, @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan

    I hesitate to answer that without thinking about it in categorical terms

    I will say for now that the following come to mind as very good books

    For a one volume political summary, that focuses on 1848-1861, I highly recommend ‘The Impending Crisis’ by historian by David Potter.

    For a longer summary, I quite like William Freehling’s two-volume book ‘The Road to Disunion.’ Freehling focuses on the development of secessionist politics in the South, with enough background info on the North to know what was going on there. He goes into extensive detail and depth on social aspects. You will learn about the many differences between the respective Southern states. Freehling is also rather a fun writer; Potter has lots of good anecdotes, and knows how to write a narrative with pace.

    IIRC, Freehling’s main argument, with which I mostly agreed, is that as white men began to become more egalitarian (towards themselves, that is, not towards other races/cultures – Jackson is a good example), the domestic elitism, so to speak, of slavery inevitably clashed with the larger political culture, including, to a surprisingly large degree, within the South itself.

    David Detzer wrote a fine summary of the actual outbreak of the war – the Sumter crisis. It is called ‘Allegiance.’

    For a summary of the war itself, ‘Battle Cry of Freedom’ is, again, pretty good. I have to admit, though, I’ve mostly read specific topics from the war, and very few summary-type books.

    Shelby Foote and Bruce Catton, again, were the classic popular Civil War writers of the mid 20th century. Being a Northerner (though I have rebels in the family tree), Catton’s Michigan style is appealing to me more so than Foote. Foote was arguably a better writer, though.

    There are copious memoirs from the war. Both armies were, in fact, highly literate. And the guys who could write were much better writers than today’s average people.

    Whatever you do, don’t read Thomas DiLorenzo or Garry Wills. DiLorenzo is a pro-Confederate partisan, while Wills is the kind of guy who tries to interpret Lincoln as belonging to a kind of multicultural liberal tradition. They’re both hacks, though DiLorenzo probably commits more sins offensive to the discipline of history.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan

    Thanks for the recommendations!

    , @Beckow
    @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan

    Thanks. I usually pick authors who try to argue against the established view of history - one learns more that way. What is often missing in mainstream is understanding of the others' point of view. We can read them and disagree, but at least we disagree based on what they say, not on what others say they should say, or - most often - based on nothing. A one-sided argument is an oxymoron, but the intellectual elites seem to like it that way.

    My view is that bringing millions of slaves into America was a fatal error. The consequences have not fully played out yet - it might eventually destroy US from within. The never-ending attempts to correct this original error usually make it worse. Opening US to mass migration from the Third World can be traced to guilty feelings among some in the elite, but more directly also to an explicit attempt to dilute the legacy of slavery. It has made it worse, but they will keep on trying.

    When in a hole, what is there to do but to dig some more...

  135. @LondonBob
    @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan

    Cromwell and Jackson strongly encouraged religious devotion in their troops, viewed themselves as instruments of God as well as being the two generals who shone out the most in their respective civil wars. I am not aware that Cromwell committed any atrocities, the only three I am aware of are the massacre of Bolton residents by Royalists, and the massacre at the siege of Basing House where Cromwell was the commander and some womenfolk camp followers who were killed at some battle. Cromwell's conduct was exemplary, despite Irish and Royalist black propaganda otherwise.

    Replies: @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan, @DFH, @Hibernian

    Two things

    First of all, several Civil War generals were better than Jackson. Especially Bedford Forrest.

    as for Cromwell and atrocities, whatever you say, man

  136. @AP
    @DFH


    massacring 100,000 Polish civilians was because of Ukranian nationalist fantasism and bloodlust
     
    It was an evil crime but its reason was no worse than that of Hiroshima. Poland occupied those lands planned to get them back after the war. It also planned to ethnically cleanse them, of Ukrainians (at least,m the local Polish organization wanted this done). UPA took the initiative and ethnically cleansed them first, while they had the chance. They did not have bombers and atom weapons, they had peasants with crude weapons. But they were fighting for their lands, on their native soil, not bombing people thousands of miles away from their native lands. I do not justify what they did, but it wasn't any worse than Anglo-American deliberate targeting and bombing of German or Japanese civilians.

    Replies: @utu, @DFH, @Matra, @Denis

    This is a very Diaspora Nationalist post.

    • Replies: @AP
    @Matra

    No, for diaspora the UPA were heroes and the crimes didn't happen.

    Replies: @Dmitry

  137. @AP
    @DFH


    massacring 100,000 Polish civilians was because of Ukranian nationalist fantasism and bloodlust
     
    It was an evil crime but its reason was no worse than that of Hiroshima. Poland occupied those lands planned to get them back after the war. It also planned to ethnically cleanse them, of Ukrainians (at least,m the local Polish organization wanted this done). UPA took the initiative and ethnically cleansed them first, while they had the chance. They did not have bombers and atom weapons, they had peasants with crude weapons. But they were fighting for their lands, on their native soil, not bombing people thousands of miles away from their native lands. I do not justify what they did, but it wasn't any worse than Anglo-American deliberate targeting and bombing of German or Japanese civilians.

    Replies: @utu, @DFH, @Matra, @Denis

    UPA took the initiative and ethnically cleansed them first, while they had the chance.

    There are a great many instances of ethnic cleansing, and even genocide, that can be “justified” using the same reasoning.

    • Replies: @AP
    @Denis

    Sure. I condemn what UPA did and hope I did not give the opposite impression. I'll repeat what I wrote to utu:

    Since UPA and OUN did not have access to internal Polish documents calling for the ethnic cleansing of those lands (and who knows if this would even have been attempted – the local Poles wanted to to do it but the government in exile rejected it), they murdered the Polish civilians in order to prevent the return of Polish rule. Although Polish rule was very unpleasant, it was not nearly sufficiently unpleasant to warrant the mass murder of massive numbers of civilians. There was thus no legitimate justification for this crime.

    My main point was not to justify what UPA did but to point out that their “justification” was no worse than that of the Anglo-Americans who were murdering German and Japanese civilians during that time. Sorry if I was not clear.

    Replies: @Denis

  138. @LondonBob
    @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan

    Cromwell and Jackson strongly encouraged religious devotion in their troops, viewed themselves as instruments of God as well as being the two generals who shone out the most in their respective civil wars. I am not aware that Cromwell committed any atrocities, the only three I am aware of are the massacre of Bolton residents by Royalists, and the massacre at the siege of Basing House where Cromwell was the commander and some womenfolk camp followers who were killed at some battle. Cromwell's conduct was exemplary, despite Irish and Royalist black propaganda otherwise.

    Replies: @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan, @DFH, @Hibernian

    I am not aware that Cromwell committed any atrocities, the only three I am aware of are the massacre of Bolton residents by Royalists, and the massacre at the siege of Basing House where Cromwell was the commander and some womenfolk camp followers who were killed at some battle.

    Ummmmmmmm…….. Does the name Drogheda ring a bell?

    • Agree: for-the-record
    • Replies: @songbird
    @DFH

    I'm mystified by the recent spate of apologias for Cromwell. It must have something to do with "Wolf Hall", but I suspect there must also be some political undercurrent. I'm not familiar with the book or TV show, but perhaps the hint would be there.

    Replies: @German_reader

    , @LondonBob
    @DFH

    Obviously you aren't aware of what happened when fortified position were stormed, see Badajoz. Any actual examples where Cromwell committed atrocities or is that it?

    Replies: @DFH

  139. @Thorfinnsson
    @German_reader

    The current, bizarre Jewish campaign against Poland is a case in point--and exceptionally weird.

    If anyone can compete with the Jews in WW2 victimhood it's the Poles.

    But now we learn that Poland shoah'd the SIX MILLION...

    Replies: @German_reader, @utu

    bizarre Jewish campaign against Poland

    Big money. Jewish organizations and Israel are hoping to squeeze out of Poland $300 billions for the so called heirless property. The heirless property disposition raises serious legal issues. Who should get it and why Jews? So the argument is being made along the line of Holocaust uniqueness so the traditional and accepted legal norms could be circumvented.

    http://www.codozasady.pl/en/the-issue-of-jewish-heirless-property-demands-extraordinary-measures/

    Applying the general principle of inheritance law that heirless property is acquired by the state to questions of Jewish heirless property in Poland is ill-considered and does not take into account the tragic realities involved.

    Furthermore, moral considerations strongly indicate that alternative solutions to the issue must be found.

    For this reason the cases of some Poles participation in killing Jews are being blown out of proportions is to create a moral foundation for the ethical norm that the murderers may not draw material benefits from the death of their victims.

    Poland is first in line. Other countries in Eastern Europe like Ukraine and Belarus will come next. But they unlike Poland are not ‘ripe’ yet for the racket. Ukraine is too poor and politically precarious, so in the mean time the Banderites, the true Jew killers of Eastern Europe, are being nourished and encouraged to taint Ukraine forever with Nazism and make Ukraine easy picking in the future. Belarus is under Putin’s protective umbrella. Jewish claims against Belarus would push it closer to Russia. Perhaps Putin could ask his buddy Netanyahu to make such claims. At some point we will see Slovakia being hit really hard because Slovakia was the most enthusiastic country in Europe with respect to Nazi Jewish policies.

    Poland was drawn (willingly) into the American sphere of influence with no alternatives left. To make it worse Poland was put (put itself) on the course of conflict with Germany and EU. The recent Polish claims about restitutions from Germany are part of it. It is really just a psy-op directed at Polish public opinion to bring them down to the level of the Jewish vindictive ethics to make them more appreciative of Jewish claims leaving a false promise that once Germany pays (which will not happen) paying the Jews will be easier. Compare that with the letter of reconciliation “We forgive and ask for forgiveness” of 1965 by Polish Bishops to their German counterparts which represents the true spirit of Polish Catholicism.

    Some Poles also entertain illusory rationalization that the Jewish claims will be offset by purchases of American (and Israeli) armaments which they want to buy anyway. Poles go through the standard steps of denial. And they are afraid to talk about it because of fear of being accused of antisemitism.

    One may wonder to what extent the prying off V4 countries from EU and creating the illusory vision of the Intermarium and the vilification of Russia are part of the long term strategy to settle the Holocaust financial claims. When you think about it, whatever Israel and the Jewry are doing to these countries is good for Russia in the long term.

    • Replies: @Grahamsno(G64)
    @utu

    From your link;


    In the majority of Jewish heirless property matters there is a lack of documents providing even indirect information about the property and its owners (or their relatives). In some regions, pre-war land and mortgage registers were completely destroyed during the war. Additionally, civil status records for the Jewish community in many cities and regions were completely destroyed. There is also no chance of finding death certificates of Jewish property owners, especially those murdered in concentration camps; such documents were often never issued. Frequently there are no documents or witnesses who could provide even indirect confirmation that a particular individual or family was transported to a concentration camp or other location.
     
    Oh boy conditions for the perfect Scam, this's basically a blank Cheque the Poles are royally screwed. The Germans already payed them for the atrocities committed in Poland and now the Poles who didn't even have a government have to pay them. And the Jews wonder why they are universally reviled.
  140. @Anon
    @Mikhail

    RFE/RL is a Russophobic cesspool paid by the US government.

    Replies: @Mikhail

    Noticeably anti-Serb as well.

    Shifting gears, for you auto buffs:

    https://www.twelfthroundauto.com/best-motor-oil/

    https://www.youtube.com/user/scottykilmer

    Scotty is hilarious.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    @Mikhail

    This is just an affiliate marketing site. It's not like he's actually testing or even reviewing the motor oil.

    I've always used Mobil One.

    Replies: @Mikhail

  141. @Dmitry
    @German_reader

    She was originally a Mormon, but then she left church because Mormons do not support gay rights.

    What I don't understand about her, is how these relatively young people, who have never had profession or job, and do not even seem to have family connections, become the leaders of their country.

    Sebastian Kurz of Austria was the first one I saw. He has never had a job and has not completed even a university degree. Yet, he became Foreign Minister at age 27, and Chancellor of Austria at age 32.

    He is one of the least qualified people in Austria, and yet he is their leader?

    And this New Zealand woman, is very similar - although she is at least slightly more qualified (unlike Kurz, she was at least able to finish university degree in communications and politics).

    But she also seems not to have any job or profession in her life, but became leader of the country at age 36 years?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacinda_Ardern

    Replies: @German_reader, @WHAT

    Precisely because she is nothing. ZOG props her up and thus owns her completely, no need for child porn leverage even.

  142. @DFH
    @AP


    I do not justify what they did, but it wasn’t any worse than Anglo-American deliberate targeting and bombing of German or Japanese civilians.
     
    That's ridiculous. The aim of dropping the atomic bombs was to force the Japanese to surrender, avoiding hundreds of thousands of American soldiers dying in an invasion (or possibly even more Japanese civilians in a blockade), in a war started by Japanese aggression.
    Torturing and murdering tens of thousands of civilians who posed no military threat as part of a campaign to ethnically cleanse people who had been living there for hundreds of years is not the same.
    The reasons are not at all the same.

    Honestly, when the war in Ukraine started I was quite pro-Ukrainian but now I have grown to understand completely why people hate you (Ukrainian nationalists).

    Replies: @utu, @AP

    Honestly, when the war in Ukraine started I was quite pro-Ukrainian but now I have grown to understand completely why people hate you (Ukrainian nationalists).

    Poland is taking Ukrainian gastarbeiters and immigrants by millions w/o any gestures of contrition and atonements from Ukrainians for the Volhynia genocide. It is really hard to understand it.

    • Replies: @WHAT
    @utu

    Beatings of said gastarbeiters are quite widespread though. Maybe it counts as atonement.

    Replies: @utu

    , @JL
    @utu

    Perhaps they feel solidarity in their hatred of Russia, something that exists much more in the here-and-now, and this allows them to overcome historical enmities.

    , @AP
    @utu

    Many Poles realize what their governemnt did in Ukraine in the 1920s and 1930s was also shameful (f not nearly as bad as what UPA did) and thus prefer not to bring up the mid 20th century mess at all.

    There is a Ukrianian (diaspora) national hall not far from where I live where they sometimes host parties where both Ukrainian and Polish off the boaters come. So one can see Poles drinking in a hall with a portrait of Bandera hanging on the wall.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

  143. @utu
    @DFH


    Honestly, when the war in Ukraine started I was quite pro-Ukrainian but now I have grown to understand completely why people hate you (Ukrainian nationalists).
     
    Poland is taking Ukrainian gastarbeiters and immigrants by millions w/o any gestures of contrition and atonements from Ukrainians for the Volhynia genocide. It is really hard to understand it.

    Replies: @WHAT, @JL, @AP

    Beatings of said gastarbeiters are quite widespread though. Maybe it counts as atonement.

    • Replies: @utu
    @WHAT

    "Beatings of said gastarbeiters " - not true.

  144. Gammas. LOL.

  145. @WHAT
    @utu

    Beatings of said gastarbeiters are quite widespread though. Maybe it counts as atonement.

    Replies: @utu

    “Beatings of said gastarbeiters “ – not true.

  146. @Dmitry
    @German_reader


    “A society that is welcoming to Muslims, is also welcoming to Jews” – he’s clearly arguing from perceived self-interest
     
    Jews can be a bit like Alawites in Syria. Assad government always talks about religious tolerance, secular state and multiculturalism of Syria.

    This is less utopian, than self-interest. (Only in secular, multinational, multireligious Syria, can Alawites with 10% of the population, rule over Sunnis with 80%). With Jews, there can be this cynicism as well.

    By far the funniest example of "cynical anti-racist" is Viatcheslav Kantor. He is an ordinary corrupt oligarch, who wants to secure his money by becoming internationally indispensable (like how Abramovich did with football). So renamed himself "Moshe" and suddenly discovered international role as a noble Jew and, anti-racist campaigner.

    However, I don't think most Jewish liberals in rich countries like America, are cynical in this. They are mainly quite utopian people, who had bourgeois families, studied in private schools, and very comfortable lives, where they never saw any wars or violence. All this creates soft, utopian people.

    Someone above says why they angry that Netanyahu is friends with Orban. The reason is because they are utopian and self-angelizing their image. Therefore if Israel is associated with Orban and Jews =Israel, their self-image is destroyed. (I understand why Orban has a bad image with American anti-racists, but why multinationalist Putin has is a mystery).

    Replies: @Epigon, @Hyperborean

    Jews can be a bit like Alawites in Syria. Assad government always talks about religious tolerance, secular state and multiculturalism of Syria.

    This is less utopian, than self-interest. (Only in secular, multinational, multireligious Syria, can Alawites with 10% of the population, rule over Sunnis with 80%). With Jews, there can be this cynicism as well.

    The Syrian government is a supporter of secularism and protector of religious minorities, due to self-interest, but they also clearly define Syria as an Arab state.

    Aside from the fact that it is in the formal name of the country (Syrian Arab Republic), before the civil war the government used to stamp out Kurdish identity, like all the neighbouring states, due to fear of separatism and a desire to Arabise the country.

    However, I don’t think most Jewish liberals in rich countries like America, are cynical in this. They are mainly quite utopian people, who had bourgeois families, studied in private schools, and very comfortable lives, where they never saw any wars or violence. All this creates soft, utopian people.

    People who are uncomfortable with honestly thinking in terms of pure utilitarian morality (actions decided on whether this benefits me) can also fool themselves into believing something noble that just happens to support their interests.

    (I understand why Orban has a bad image with American anti-racists, but why multinationalist Putin has is a mystery).

    Aside from everything else, they really, really, hate hate hate Putin for things like Pussy Riot and the “law against proselytising homosexual propaganda” to minors.

    • Agree: utu, reiner Tor
    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @Hyperborean


    Aside from everything else, they really, really, hate hate hate Putin for things like Pussy Riot and the “law against proselytising homosexual propaganda” to minors.

     

    1. Pussy Riot - was a stupid repression. But it is not different than what Theresa May, or New Zealand, etc, are doing to politically incorrect people. If anything, Western European governments are all aligned with the Russian government in these topics.

    And Russian government is significantly less repressive, than what e.g. Spain does to Catalan politicians and dissenters. Spain's recent behaviour, is really repressive and anti-democratic, in a way Putin has not yet reached fortunately.

    As for the "hate crime" prosecutions which are in countries like UK. This is very similar to Putin's policies, but in some dimensions it could possibly be more extreme in Western Europe than in Russia.

    In other words, these stupid cases and political prosecutions of people, there is not provided any special distinction between the Russian government and Western European governments. Both are equally bad in these topics.

    The distinction is more between restricted free-speech of most of Europe (including many countries in Western Europe) and the free-speech absolutism of America.

    2. "Law against proselytising homosexual propaganda" - is far less extreme, than the policy of many countries, which Western liberals do not concern with - whether we are talking about the whole of the Muslim world, or countries like India, China, etc, which are probably the same in this topic as Russia, and countries like Cuba, Bolivia and Venezuela, which will be much more repressive.

    Also, Putin's views on these topics are just aligning with typical opinion in the country, so there he is just being a representative politician in this area, not pushing any particular personal views.

    Sexual minorities, of course, live better in the Russian Federation (in terms of sexual minority rights), than in the USSR.

    During the Cold War, I'm not aware that America used the politics of sexual minorities to criticize the USSR, because the policies of the two countries were the same.

    Western media has of course exaggerated the differences even today, in the typical histrionic way of journalists.

    Replies: @Hyperborean

  147. @DFH
    @LondonBob


    I am not aware that Cromwell committed any atrocities, the only three I am aware of are the massacre of Bolton residents by Royalists, and the massacre at the siege of Basing House where Cromwell was the commander and some womenfolk camp followers who were killed at some battle.
     
    Ummmmmmmm........ Does the name Drogheda ring a bell?

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b8/Massacre_at_Drogheda.jpeg

    Replies: @songbird, @LondonBob

    I’m mystified by the recent spate of apologias for Cromwell. It must have something to do with “Wolf Hall”, but I suspect there must also be some political undercurrent. I’m not familiar with the book or TV show, but perhaps the hint would be there.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @songbird


    It must have something to do with “Wolf Hall”
     
    That show is about Thomas Cromwell, not Oliver.

    Replies: @for-the-record, @LondonBob, @songbird

  148. @German_reader
    @Anonymous


    The Holocaust is a useful rhetorical tool because it is an issue on which Jews occupy an unassailable moral high ground, but it’s not something the average Jew/Israeli really cares about as it affects day to day life
     
    I don't think that's true, it's clearly a central element of the identity of many Jews (perhaps the central element for many of the more secular ones), it's not just pretended. And imo it couldn't be otherwise.

    Israelis have a warmer regard for Germany than vice versa in every poll I have seen
     
    They also reject any contact with a party like AfD because of its alleged "Nazi origins" (a party that was founded in 2013, when the youngest of Hitler's voters would have been 100); head of the Jewish World Congress Ronald Lauder has even called for the AfD to be banned. It's clear that any form of even moderate German nationalism is seen as unacceptable.

    Orban and the Poles are not demonized because of the Holocaust
     
    The things many Jews say about Poland are far too visceral to be merely the result of political calculation.

    Replies: @Dmitry, @Hyperborean

    I don’t think that’s true, it’s clearly a central element of the identity of many Jews (perhaps the central element for many of the more secular ones), it’s not just pretended. And imo it couldn’t be otherwise.

    For American Jews at least, the Shoah is the core of their identity. How would it change if we separated it into religious and non-religious Jews? I have a suspicion that secular Jews would care a lot more about it, simply because they have nothing else.

  149. @German_reader
    @Thorfinnsson


    The current, bizarre Jewish campaign against Poland is a case in point–and exceptionally weird.
     
    Much weirder though imo is that there's so much gentile support for Jewish nationalism, even though there's almost zero reciprocity.
    There are tons of gentiles who get very, very emotionally invested in their defense of Israel and Zionism, not least on the so-called right (it's of course especially bad in the US where things are just grotesque, but there are many such people in Europe as well, across the political spectrum). I don't understand the psychology of those people.

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson, @Denis, @Dmitry

    It is because they are projecting their nationalist inclinations wrt their own countries onto Israel.

    From the point of view of an uninformed westerner (especially in the Anglosphere), Israeli Jews are a group of white, pseudo-Christian people fighting a bunch of brown Muslims. Throughout the west, it is more-or-less socially unacceptable (for white people) to complain about non-white immigration, or to express any sentiment that could possibly be construed as racism; so, those who hold those sentiments but can’t express them properly project them onto Israel, since supporting Israel is perfectly acceptable. In doing so, they use Israel, which they imagine to be a semi-western, semi-Christian country, as a proxy for their own country. This is why they get as emotional as they do; they are (probably subconsciously) mentally substituting Israel and Israelis for their own countries and their own people.

    It’s pretty retarded.

    • Replies: @Byrresheim
    @Denis

    Retarded it is, it should end asap.

  150. @Mikhail
    @Anon

    Noticeably anti-Serb as well.

    Shifting gears, for you auto buffs:

    https://www.twelfthroundauto.com/best-motor-oil/

    https://www.youtube.com/user/scottykilmer

    Scotty is hilarious.

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson

    This is just an affiliate marketing site. It’s not like he’s actually testing or even reviewing the motor oil.

    I’ve always used Mobil One.

    • Replies: @Mikhail
    @Thorfinnsson

    I'd like to see the specifics behind that rating as well, which varies by different categories for best oil:

    - synthetic
    - conventional
    - 0-20
    - blend
    - high mileage (75, 000 and over) synthetic

    A more detailed venue:

    https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/

    On the subject of engine oil for cars, I'm of the view that as long as you put in the recommended weight and change within a reasoned time, there will be no problems, whatever you use: Amazon, Walmart, Mobil, Royal Purple..... This view excludes driving a car with regular temperatures at single digits and less.

    If the manual calls for full synthetic, then by all means use it.

    More important is the quality of the oil filter. Offhand, the Mobil extended life and Fram full synthetic filters seem like the best options. Royal Purple oil filters are considered as good if not better. Its price is noticeably higher when compared to the aforementioned other two which sell at Walmart for around $10.00.

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson

  151. @Thorfinnsson
    @Epigon



    Of these, only Yak-1 stood any modicum of chance against Bf-109F. MiG-3 and LaGG-3 were turkeys.
    It was not until Yak-3/9 and La-5/7 that Soviets matched contemporary Bf-109 and FW-190 models.
    P-39/63 was not Soviet, of course, but it was another very successful Soviet-employed fighter.
     
    All true, though in my view the largest problem with the VVS relative to the Luftwaffe was pilot training.

    In reading postwar memoirs of Luftwaffe pilots the assessments of the VVS are generally quite poor compared to the RAF and USAAF with certain exceptions.

    This isn't down to Russophobia either as assessments of the Red Army are generally positive (Tippelskirch and the Soviet zergling myth aside).


    In its niche role and altitude band, yes.

    However, if I had to choose which WW2 fighter I would fly to battle, I would narrow it down to P-47 or P-38. P-51 Mustang and its trumpeted superiority are part of Bomber Mafia narrative retouching.
     
    P-38 and P-47 were limited to Mach 0.68 and Mach 0.71 respectively in maneuvering. P-51 Mustang was Mach 0.78. Bf 109 and Fw 190 were 0.75.

    RAF test pilot Eric Brown on the the matter:


    We had found out that the Bf 109 and the FW 190 could fight up to a Mach of 0.75, three-quarters the speed of sound. We checked the Lightning and it couldn't fly in combat faster than 0.68. So it was useless. We told Doolittle that all it was good for was photo-reconnaissance and had to be withdrawn from escort duties. And the funny thing is that the Americans had great difficulty understanding this because the Lightning had the two top aces in the Far East.
     
    It should be added that as a twin-engine aircraft the P-38 was inherently less maneuverable than single-engine fighters. This was irrelevant when it first appeared as it was the fastest airplane in the world, but as the war went on its speed was surpassed by single-engine fighters. Fortunately that was generally not the case in the Pacific.

    The P-47 was simply too heavy. This did at least make it very rugged and a fast diver. Other than the lack of cannons it was well suited for the fighter-bomber role.

    Other than the unloved (by the Americans) P-39/63 and P-38 all American fighters were also inadequately armed.

    Which fighter you wish to take into battle of course depends on the battle. P-51D superiority was real for the 8th Air Force's mission. The Spitfire Mk XIV was arguably better than the P-51D, but it was short ranged and thus useless.

    If the P-51D had been tasked with the same mission as the Luftwaffe's fighters, it would've fared poorly owing to its weak armament. Six .50cal BMGs were fine against fighters, but not four-engine bombers.

    Ju-87, Douglas SBD Dauntless, Aichi D3A were dive bombers and employed successfuly. The key to their success was the air superiority they enjoyed. Once it was gone – Vals went down by the dozens with little to show for.

    Stuka was until G model not a good anti-armour, or CS plane due to light armament and lack of armour protection – it would get to the scene, drop its load and be gone. German analogue to Il-2 would probably be Hs-123.
     
    Types other than the Ju-87 weren't capable of vertical dive bombing, nor did they have the Ju-87's automatic dive recovery capabilities. They also weren't fielded in land warfare, being naval bombers.

    The ideal dive bomber for CS would've been something like the Boeing XF8B.

    Hs-129 was useful as it carried a heavy cannon armament less awkwardly than the Ju-87G and also used engines not in demand elsewhere. That said, hardly an ideal type given its low performance. I wonder if the Me-410 would've been good in this role.


    Yes, achieving a direct-hit with fin-“stabilized” rockets – needed to destroy an AFV – 2-3% hit rates by post-battle evaluation crews. Soviet answer was practical – you drop dozens of bomblets across the general target area – just one hitting was often enough to disable the AFV.
     
    Hit rates from the bomblets was also abysmal.


    Motorkanon solution of Germans, Soviets and P-39/63 was deadly – in my opinion, the German 30 mm already qualifies for large-caliber, and arguably, Soviet 23 mm does as well. In addition, Germans mounted 50 and 75 mm pneumatically and hydraulically operated guns to Hs-123 (semi-automatic, though), while I believe they fitted 50 mm to Me-410 in the Zerstoerer role.
    US 75 mm hand-operated in B-24 and B-25 in the Pacific was improvisation.
     
    Engine-mounted cannon solution was excellent, though it took time to mature. 30mm is I suppose relatively large caliber, but German aircraft with MK 108 cannons were used as fighters and bomber destroyers rather than in the close support role since it was a low velocity gun.

    There was a high velocity 30mm cannon (MK 103), but the Germans were unable to get it to work in the motorkanone role as it was apparently too large for the DB605 engine. The Soviet attempt engine mount a 45mm cannon also failed.

    50mm was indeed fitted to the Me-410 and also to the Me-262. I noted previously that the Me-410 might've done some good in the anti-armor role.

    The Italians, British, and Japanese also all experimented with large caliber cannons in the anti-shipping role.


    However, there were more Pz.38(t) in total because Slovakia used them as LT-38 in Barbarossa, and 1st Hungarian Tank Division was equipped with them as well – so the single most numerous Axis tank in Barbarossa was – Czech TNHP/Pz.38(t).
     
    Pz.38(t) was superior to PzKw II, though of course certainly not a medium tank.

    Replies: @Epigon

    Regarding P-38 and P-47, you fell for a post-war propaganda effort.
    P-38 having counter-turning propellers meant it could outturn every single-engine fighter in the right turn.
    In addition, using differential throttle settings, P-38 flown by expert pilots (instructed by travelling advisers like Lindbergh) could outmaneuver even Japanese nimble fighters, the most maneuverable of the fighters employed in WW2 in “common knowledge”.
    No, the Americans knew what they were doing in Pacific – the British pilot was given crappy export P-38 without turbosuperchargers, and suffers from common British illness of Spitfiremania.

    And be certain that no fighter “maneuvered” at 0.75 Mach. This claim is very dubious by itself for P-47 – it was precisely P-47M which could threaten Me-262 via boom-and-zoom and shallow dive speed accumilation.

    Also, P-47 operating as a fighter-bomber was an atrocity. It was designed as a high-altitude, long-range interceptor and escort fighter maximizing energy fighting. The complex and expensive turbosupercharger it carried (engineering achievement and masterpiece) that enabled it to outperform supercharged competition was literally deadweight at low altitudes.

    Its fancy hydraulic control surfaces optimized for high-altitude, high-speed maneuvering was ill-suited for ground-level combat.

    The thing was very expensive (almost twice the price of Mustang), armoured, resistant to damage (air cooled radials vs. liquid cooled inlines) and heavily armed.

    Have a look yourself: https://chicagoboyz.net/archives/38801.html

    Comments are goldmine as well.

    https://chicagoboyz.net/archives/54434.html

    Also, Yugoslavia had post-WW2 late Spitfires, Yaks and P-47. P-47 winner in 9/10 situations. It could outclimb opposition post 6000 m altitude, accumulate energy due to higher ceiling and better high-altitude performance, build up speed via shallow dive and then prey upon hapless opposition in mock fights.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    @Epigon

    Those links are a great trip down memory lane and have a lot of excellent material, but I compared the P-51's range to the Spitfire. In fact P-47s were more important than P-51s during the Big Week that broke the Luftwaffe.

    The P-38 having counter-rotating propellers meant that a skilled, properly trained pilot could use differential thrust to escape a single-engine fighter. Useful capability which the Germans sure could've used on their twin-engine fighters. Not the same thing as being a highly maneuverable aircraft, hence why SWPA P-38 pilots in the 5th Air Force mainly exploited their tremendous advantage in speed and diving to use boom and zoom tactics.

    Also, while not a knock on the P-38 itself, poor pilot training meant that differential thrust tactics were rarely used in the ETO.

    http://www.ausairpower.net/P-38-Analysis.html

    Eric Brown was the world's best test pilot of that period and not prone to bias. He liked the Spitfire, but he was fair and considered the P-51 to be its equal. And liking Spitfires was not just a British position. Some of the RAF Eagle pilots that converted to the P-47 from the Spitfire initially hated the aircraft until they learned to exploit its virtues. Adolf Galland also famously told Goering during the Battle of Britain that he would like a squadron of Spitfires.

    The Mach numbers in question related to maneuvering limits in a dive (obviously WW2-era fighters couldn't fly that fast in level flight) and were caused by compressibility in the transonic range. Since this relates to wing design and not the engines, it doesn't matter what kind of P-38 Brown was flying.

    Regarding the engines, that was another problem with the P-38 in the ETO. The engines were known in the ETO as the "Allison time bomb". Bill Knudsen vetoed the effort to equip the P-38 with Merlins, and Allison for various reasons refused to improve the engine sufficiently.

    The Spitfire also had a problem with compressibility (don't recall the limit) which is why the British designed the replacement Supermarine Spiteful.

    The good news for the P-47 is that it didn't need to maneuver in a dive because it could dive faster than its opponents thanks to its great weight and R2800 engine.

    The P-47 had a number of features intended for high altitude operation, but these didn't harm it at low altitude operation other than that they cost money. And actually hydraulically boosted flaps at low altitude might save your life. It's not like it had a specialized high altitude wing (e.g. as on the Ta-152).

    You do bring up another reason for P-51 superiority however: it was cheaper and easier to maintain. Admittedly not relevant to the pilot in the cockpit, but certainly relevant to the USAAF.

    I don't believe that a P-47 could outclimb a late mark Spitfire. Griffon-engined Spitfires, by simple physics, would obviously outclimb a P-47. I suppose past a certain altitude the P-47's turbocharger could've provided an edge over the Spitfire's two-speed supercharger. The Yak-3 obviously would've been shredded outside of a low altitude dogfight owing to its inferior engine.

    Replies: @Epigon

  152. @ Anatoly:

    If the rumours are true, then AMD will annouce their new mainstream/mid-end GPU “Navi” & the new Ryzen 3000 series on the May 1st. Depending on how agressive AMD goes with the price, it will force Intel’s & Nvidia’s hand. Retailers might start sell-off campaigns.

    When you can wait until then, you might get your hand on some better performance/price-matrix.

  153. @songbird
    @DFH

    I'm mystified by the recent spate of apologias for Cromwell. It must have something to do with "Wolf Hall", but I suspect there must also be some political undercurrent. I'm not familiar with the book or TV show, but perhaps the hint would be there.

    Replies: @German_reader

    It must have something to do with “Wolf Hall”

    That show is about Thomas Cromwell, not Oliver.

    • Replies: @for-the-record
    @German_reader

    That show is about Thomas Cromwell, not Oliver.

    I am assuming that Songbird knew that, and was implying that the Cromwell "family" name had somehow been rehabilitated by the program.

    Replies: @LondonBob

    , @LondonBob
    @German_reader

    Related through Thomas Cromwell's sister who was Oliver's grandmother, or something along those lines. The maternal name was adopted as it was beneficial to be associated with Thomas.

    , @songbird
    @German_reader

    I once heard it used as segway.

    I don't know if Oliver Cromwell was really very different from some men of his day or men who had previously invaded Ireland, like Edward the Bruce or Strongbow. Massacres were probably pretty common, like the Siege of Smerwick, during the Second Desmond Rebellion. Part of my family had a farm on top of a big medieval burial ground - seems to have been a village obliterated by Edward the Bruce and never rebuilt, but history is patchy. What is known is only that he passed by that way.

    Still, I find the revisionism strange because it is not really about Cromwell but specifically about the Cromwellian conquest of Ireland. One contemporary estimate was that 40% of the population of Ireland was killed from war and induced famine. Whatever the true number, (some say only 20%), I can't help but think that there is some strange political motivation. Either a globalist attack on Irish identity, or else they appreciate his anticlerical activities.

    Where I first heard it was actually on American public radio. Something I really abhor, but someone else was listening to it. On any given day, to hear it you would think it was communists, so it is easy to suspect some political dimension.

  154. @Hyperborean
    @Dmitry


    Jews can be a bit like Alawites in Syria. Assad government always talks about religious tolerance, secular state and multiculturalism of Syria.

    This is less utopian, than self-interest. (Only in secular, multinational, multireligious Syria, can Alawites with 10% of the population, rule over Sunnis with 80%). With Jews, there can be this cynicism as well.
     
    The Syrian government is a supporter of secularism and protector of religious minorities, due to self-interest, but they also clearly define Syria as an Arab state.

    Aside from the fact that it is in the formal name of the country (Syrian Arab Republic), before the civil war the government used to stamp out Kurdish identity, like all the neighbouring states, due to fear of separatism and a desire to Arabise the country.

    However, I don’t think most Jewish liberals in rich countries like America, are cynical in this. They are mainly quite utopian people, who had bourgeois families, studied in private schools, and very comfortable lives, where they never saw any wars or violence. All this creates soft, utopian people.
     
    People who are uncomfortable with honestly thinking in terms of pure utilitarian morality (actions decided on whether this benefits me) can also fool themselves into believing something noble that just happens to support their interests.

    (I understand why Orban has a bad image with American anti-racists, but why multinationalist Putin has is a mystery).
     
    Aside from everything else, they really, really, hate hate hate Putin for things like Pussy Riot and the "law against proselytising homosexual propaganda" to minors.

    Replies: @Dmitry

    Aside from everything else, they really, really, hate hate hate Putin for things like Pussy Riot and the “law against proselytising homosexual propaganda” to minors.

    1. Pussy Riot – was a stupid repression. But it is not different than what Theresa May, or New Zealand, etc, are doing to politically incorrect people. If anything, Western European governments are all aligned with the Russian government in these topics.

    And Russian government is significantly less repressive, than what e.g. Spain does to Catalan politicians and dissenters. Spain’s recent behaviour, is really repressive and anti-democratic, in a way Putin has not yet reached fortunately.

    As for the “hate crime” prosecutions which are in countries like UK. This is very similar to Putin’s policies, but in some dimensions it could possibly be more extreme in Western Europe than in Russia.

    In other words, these stupid cases and political prosecutions of people, there is not provided any special distinction between the Russian government and Western European governments. Both are equally bad in these topics.

    The distinction is more between restricted free-speech of most of Europe (including many countries in Western Europe) and the free-speech absolutism of America.

    2. “Law against proselytising homosexual propaganda” – is far less extreme, than the policy of many countries, which Western liberals do not concern with – whether we are talking about the whole of the Muslim world, or countries like India, China, etc, which are probably the same in this topic as Russia, and countries like Cuba, Bolivia and Venezuela, which will be much more repressive.

    Also, Putin’s views on these topics are just aligning with typical opinion in the country, so there he is just being a representative politician in this area, not pushing any particular personal views.

    Sexual minorities, of course, live better in the Russian Federation (in terms of sexual minority rights), than in the USSR.

    During the Cold War, I’m not aware that America used the politics of sexual minorities to criticize the USSR, because the policies of the two countries were the same.

    Western media has of course exaggerated the differences even today, in the typical histrionic way of journalists.

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
    @Dmitry


    1. Pussy Riot – was a stupid repression. But it is not different than what Theresa May, or New Zealand, etc, are doing to politically incorrect people. If anything, Western European governments are all aligned with the Russian government in these topics.

     

    But there is a difference. Pussy Riot are good people politically speaking while the UK arrests hateful people, so from their perspective there is a fundamental difference.

    Also, Putin’s views on these topics are just aligning with typical opinion in the country, so there he is just being a representative politician in this area, not pushing any particular personal views.
     
    Which simply makes ordinary Russians complicit in Putin’s sins.

    countries like Cuba, Bolivia and Venezuela, which will be much more repressive.
     
    Cuba's government is rather liberal:

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/dec/19/cuba-removes-support-for-gay-marriage-in-new-constitution-after-protests

    >>>>

    You are correct in pointing out the blindspots and hypocrisy, but it is not as if they feel obliged to be consistent.

    It is much easier simply to hate renegade white countries like Russia, Poland, Hungary, Italy or whichever European country is next to go rogue.

    Replies: @Dmitry

  155. @German_reader
    @Thorfinnsson


    The current, bizarre Jewish campaign against Poland is a case in point–and exceptionally weird.
     
    Much weirder though imo is that there's so much gentile support for Jewish nationalism, even though there's almost zero reciprocity.
    There are tons of gentiles who get very, very emotionally invested in their defense of Israel and Zionism, not least on the so-called right (it's of course especially bad in the US where things are just grotesque, but there are many such people in Europe as well, across the political spectrum). I don't understand the psychology of those people.

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson, @Denis, @Dmitry

    Israel’s actual reality is painful, frustrating tolerance and liberalism anyway, where people who hate each other are forced to live together. And it’s one of the most multicultural and multi-religious countries, which is exactly what creates nationalist tensions and violence there. It’s a multiethnic nightmare – opposite of what voters actually want (homogeneous, conflictless, European countries, like Poland or Hungary).

    To go back to Israel and AfD.

    Israel’s main problem in external policy, is that it has very bad relations with most Muslim countries, and moderately bad one with liberal countries.

    Israel’s diplomatic priority should be to improve its relationship with Muslim – within limitations of its being in conflict with Muslims.

    That’s one of the most important things for Israel’s survival – to improve its relations with Muslim countries.

    So Israel should definitely not try to create relationships with anti-Muslim European political parties, unless those parties are going to be influential in the government of their countries, preferably powerful countries.

    As long as anti-Muslim parties are in the opposition, Israel will be idiots to be associated with them.

    As a similar lesson – Russia should not associate with opposition political parties in Europe, anti-Muslim or pro-Muslim, unless they will actually win an election and become powerful. When Russian government officials were associating with political losers like Marine Le Pen, the effect was both bad for Marine Le Pen, and bad for Russian external policy (reducing its influence) in France.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @Dmitry


    So Israel should definitely not try to create relationships
     
    That's not the point (I'd actually agree), the point is that Israeli representatives and spokesmen of Jewish organizations have gone out of their way to validate the view of AfD as an illegitimate party of Nazis that ought to be crushed.
    There was a bizarre incident last year when former Mossad agent Rafi Eitan (one of those who captured Eichmann) met with AfD members in Germany and had friendly words for them - he was strongly condemned by the Israeli ambassador for that and eventually retracted his statements. Admittedly that also shows that Jewish views on those issues aren't monolithic, and to some extent I can even understand Jewish wariness about right-wing movements in Europe (there have been a few cases of explicit antisemites in AfD, though those have been isolated and AfD also has a few Jewish members). But still, on the whole the behaviour of official Jewry is really tiresome.

    That’s one of the most important things for Israel’s survival – to improve its relations with Muslim countries.
     
    It's unfortunate that Israel has picked the very worst Islamic countries, Saudi-Arabia and other Gulf states, for that project, it definitely makes a mockery of all those "Israel is a bulwark against Islamism" claims (though the same is of course true on a much larger scale for the US, and also for the dubious ties of European countries to those regimes).

    Replies: @Anonymous, @LondonBob, @Dmitry

  156. @German_reader
    @Dmitry


    although she is at least slightly more qualified (she has a university degree in communications and politics).
     
    That isn't a qualification, in fact having studied something like "communication studies" or "political science" should count as a big fat minus imo.
    It's not unusual though, many Western politicians today have been professional politicans for their entire lives, it's a very important reason for the degeneration of our societies that our "elites" consist of useless parasites who would be nothing without their party machines and their patronage networks.
    Also very disturbing that this woman has a Mormon background, something needs to be done to check the spread of that cult.

    Replies: @Dmitry

    Degrees in politics and communication, may not be intellectually difficult to attain – but she at least completed the course, unlike Sebastian Kurz.

    Both her Sebastian Kurz, have never had a job or profession though. But she has a university qualification, which can be a test of having normal IQ and literacy. She has something on her CV under “Education”.

    Her ascension to become the most powerful person in her country at 37 years old, is shocking. And even Sebastian Kurz becoming leader of Austria at 32 years is even more shocking.

    our societies that our “elites” consist of useless parasites who would be nothing without their party machines and their patronage networks.

    But neither her nor Kurz, are from any elites, which is how it becomes even more difficult to understand.

    They don’t study in prestigious schools, or have any important family. They never had jobs in their life. They have no academic or intellectual ability. They don’t have unusual personalities, or charisma, or original policies. And they reach the country’s highest position while they are 30s. (Kurz second highest position, while he was 20s). Lol wtf.

    Mormon background, something needs to be done to check the spread of that cult.

    Obviously, Mormon beliefs are idiotic even by religious standards. But their external behaviour can be desirable. Salt Lake City, for example, is described as one of the best cities to live in America.

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
    @Dmitry


    But neither her nor Kurz, are from any elites, which is how it becomes even more difficult to understand.

    They don’t study in prestigious schools, or have any important family. They never had jobs in their life. They have no academic or intellectual ability. They don’t have unusual personalities, or charisma, or original policies. And they reach the country’s highest position while they are 30s. (Kurz second highest position, while he was 20s). Lol wtf.
     
    It is not so surprising for party machines to function like this, the surprising thing to me is their age.
    , @Thorfinnsson
    @Dmitry

    Politics is a job. By that standard Kurz is qualified--he has shown a consistent ability to win elections and has worked in politics for his whole adult life.

    People often wring their hands about "professional politicians" (see German_reader), but professional politicians are not new (Bismarck was a professional politician).

    There is often the expressed desire that political leaders should have other qualifications and job experience. Well, the USA elected Donald Trump. He has actually shown a better ability to deal with the media than traditional politicians, but he has not been good at building effective political coalitions and enacting his agenda. Perhaps the lack of political experience is a hindrance.

    Another thing to remember is that Austria and New Zealand are small countries. Austria is smaller than Moscow and NZ is the size of St. Petersburg. So think of Kurz as the Mayor of Moscow and that kiwi slut as the Mayor of St. Petersburg. Still impressive at a young age (especially Kurz!), but not as impressive as the President of the Russian Federation.

    German_reader, like many Germans, has some sort of problem with Mormonism. Mormonism believes in odd things but Mormons themselves are highly functional. The fact that slut left her religion because she worships homo-sexuals is actually far more alarming.

    Replies: @Dmitry, @songbird, @German_reader

  157. German_reader says:
    @Dmitry
    @German_reader

    Israel's actual reality is painful, frustrating tolerance and liberalism anyway, where people who hate each other are forced to live together. And it's one of the most multicultural and multi-religious countries, which is exactly what creates nationalist tensions and violence there. It's a multiethnic nightmare - opposite of what voters actually want (homogeneous, conflictless, European countries, like Poland or Hungary).

    To go back to Israel and AfD.

    Israel's main problem in external policy, is that it has very bad relations with most Muslim countries, and moderately bad one with liberal countries.

    Israel's diplomatic priority should be to improve its relationship with Muslim - within limitations of its being in conflict with Muslims.

    That's one of the most important things for Israel's survival - to improve its relations with Muslim countries.

    So Israel should definitely not try to create relationships with anti-Muslim European political parties, unless those parties are going to be influential in the government of their countries, preferably powerful countries.

    As long as anti-Muslim parties are in the opposition, Israel will be idiots to be associated with them.

    -

    As a similar lesson - Russia should not associate with opposition political parties in Europe, anti-Muslim or pro-Muslim, unless they will actually win an election and become powerful. When Russian government officials were associating with political losers like Marine Le Pen, the effect was both bad for Marine Le Pen, and bad for Russian external policy (reducing its influence) in France.

    Replies: @German_reader

    So Israel should definitely not try to create relationships

    That’s not the point (I’d actually agree), the point is that Israeli representatives and spokesmen of Jewish organizations have gone out of their way to validate the view of AfD as an illegitimate party of Nazis that ought to be crushed.
    There was a bizarre incident last year when former Mossad agent Rafi Eitan (one of those who captured Eichmann) met with AfD members in Germany and had friendly words for them – he was strongly condemned by the Israeli ambassador for that and eventually retracted his statements. Admittedly that also shows that Jewish views on those issues aren’t monolithic, and to some extent I can even understand Jewish wariness about right-wing movements in Europe (there have been a few cases of explicit antisemites in AfD, though those have been isolated and AfD also has a few Jewish members). But still, on the whole the behaviour of official Jewry is really tiresome.

    That’s one of the most important things for Israel’s survival – to improve its relations with Muslim countries.

    It’s unfortunate that Israel has picked the very worst Islamic countries, Saudi-Arabia and other Gulf states, for that project, it definitely makes a mockery of all those “Israel is a bulwark against Islamism” claims (though the same is of course true on a much larger scale for the US, and also for the dubious ties of European countries to those regimes).

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    @German_reader

    I think a distinction should be made between Israelis and American Jewish Zionists; they share common goals and work together, but their values are often very different (Israelis more pragmatic, conservative and "race realist," American Jews more liberal, dreamy and idealistic). Also the relationship is very asymmetric (Israel depends to a large degree on American goodwill and support but has essentially nothing to offer America in return). Reading about the Blue and White Coalition, it seems to me they are basically offering Bibi's policy but with symbolic and verbal concessions to American Jewish sensibilities (e.g. not palling around with Bolsonaro and Orban). The example you cite with AfD may be a similar dynamic: many Israelis may see AfD as sympathetic, but to associate with a fringe far-right German party is bad optics and may cost you American support, and as Dmitry points out is worthless from a strategic point of view.

    The relationship between Israel and KSA is I think a good example of this dynamic: neither side can formally ally itself with the other, in fact they are still officially hostile (KSA bars not only Israeli passport holders but anybody with evidence of travel to Israel), but they still have similar goals and their respective leaders will work together behind the scenes when necessary.

    I genuinely have no idea what the Israeli position on right-wing parties in Europe is, or even if they have a unified position. On the one hand these parties often have vague pro-Israel sentiments which is certainly better than the overtly pro-BDS position of a lot of the European left, but there is obviously a lot of negative historical baggage as well (has Marine Le Pen really renounced her father?). Is opposition to Muslim immigration to Europe a good thing or a bad thing for Israel? What about opposition to the EU? Whatever position they strike is sure to be one of pure self interest, but the calculation seems ambiguous. I agree with Dmitry that their pose is probably to remain on good terms with whomever is currently in power, and that they will try to avoid alienating the Americans (Chuck Schumer et al)

    Tl; dr I think the Israelis themselves are mostly realpolitik, but their dependence on America forces them to pay lip service to American neoliberalism and utopianism

    Replies: @Mikhail, @utu, @reiner Tor

    , @LondonBob
    @German_reader

    Don't Afd have relations with Pamela Geller and the dark zionist money coming from the US to ensure any nationalist movement doesn't go the wrong way? Normally they obsess about Muslims but stay silent on immigration from Africa like Tommy Robinson.

    Replies: @German_reader

    , @Dmitry
    @German_reader


    Israel has picked the very worst Islamic countries, Saudi-Arabia and other Gulf states,
     
    Saudi Arabia was paying for suicide bombers in Israel until early 2000s (they transferred $5000 for each Palestinian suicide bomb against Israel).

    Obviously, it is a large improvement in Israel's security, if Saudi Arabia moderates their view to it (Saudi Arabia was also supporting Chechens in the 1990s).

    Payment of Saudi Arabia for suicide bombings in Israel was ended by Bush pressure after 9/11 (but America was complicit for Saudi support of Chechen terrorists).

    In the case of relations between Saudi Arabia and Israel. It's still politically impossible, for Saudi Arabia to be actually normal relations with Israel - as their education system will have created a population hostile to Israel.

    Saudi Arabia has friendly relations with America, Russia and UK, where they invest billions of dollars, buy weapons, or even their children to study. The relations with Israel are much more secret and they are more like the relations Israel has with Egypt or Jordan (where publicly they are very unfriendly, but privately friendly with the ruler).

  158. @Dmitry
    @Hyperborean


    Aside from everything else, they really, really, hate hate hate Putin for things like Pussy Riot and the “law against proselytising homosexual propaganda” to minors.

     

    1. Pussy Riot - was a stupid repression. But it is not different than what Theresa May, or New Zealand, etc, are doing to politically incorrect people. If anything, Western European governments are all aligned with the Russian government in these topics.

    And Russian government is significantly less repressive, than what e.g. Spain does to Catalan politicians and dissenters. Spain's recent behaviour, is really repressive and anti-democratic, in a way Putin has not yet reached fortunately.

    As for the "hate crime" prosecutions which are in countries like UK. This is very similar to Putin's policies, but in some dimensions it could possibly be more extreme in Western Europe than in Russia.

    In other words, these stupid cases and political prosecutions of people, there is not provided any special distinction between the Russian government and Western European governments. Both are equally bad in these topics.

    The distinction is more between restricted free-speech of most of Europe (including many countries in Western Europe) and the free-speech absolutism of America.

    2. "Law against proselytising homosexual propaganda" - is far less extreme, than the policy of many countries, which Western liberals do not concern with - whether we are talking about the whole of the Muslim world, or countries like India, China, etc, which are probably the same in this topic as Russia, and countries like Cuba, Bolivia and Venezuela, which will be much more repressive.

    Also, Putin's views on these topics are just aligning with typical opinion in the country, so there he is just being a representative politician in this area, not pushing any particular personal views.

    Sexual minorities, of course, live better in the Russian Federation (in terms of sexual minority rights), than in the USSR.

    During the Cold War, I'm not aware that America used the politics of sexual minorities to criticize the USSR, because the policies of the two countries were the same.

    Western media has of course exaggerated the differences even today, in the typical histrionic way of journalists.

    Replies: @Hyperborean

    1. Pussy Riot – was a stupid repression. But it is not different than what Theresa May, or New Zealand, etc, are doing to politically incorrect people. If anything, Western European governments are all aligned with the Russian government in these topics.

    But there is a difference. Pussy Riot are good people politically speaking while the UK arrests hateful people, so from their perspective there is a fundamental difference.

    Also, Putin’s views on these topics are just aligning with typical opinion in the country, so there he is just being a representative politician in this area, not pushing any particular personal views.

    Which simply makes ordinary Russians complicit in Putin’s sins.

    countries like Cuba, Bolivia and Venezuela, which will be much more repressive.

    Cuba’s government is rather liberal:

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/dec/19/cuba-removes-support-for-gay-marriage-in-new-constitution-after-protests

    >>>>

    You are correct in pointing out the blindspots and hypocrisy, but it is not as if they feel obliged to be consistent.

    It is much easier simply to hate renegade white countries like Russia, Poland, Hungary, Italy or whichever European country is next to go rogue.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @Hyperborean


    But there is a difference. Pussy Riot are good people politically speaking while the UK arrests hateful people, so from their perspective there is a fundamental difference.

     

    Of course they have their subjective views.

    But it's still quite ridiculous and useful to look at. Pussy Riot were making some video in a church. And UK arrests people for vandalism in churches.

    Far-right graffiti church vandal jailed for 6 years

    https://www.premier.org.uk/News/UK/Far-right-graffiti-church-vandal-jailed-for-6-years

     

    Sure one is right politically, and one liberal politically. One has physical damage, while the other is only damage atmosphere.

    But the legal justifications in the courts of the two countries, will be very similar (church is some "holy" place, so it is as a worse than normal hooliganism).

    In the case of Pussy Riot, of course Putin opposed the punishment, or believed it was too much.


    Cuba’s government is rather liberal:

     

    But not when Fidel Castro, was there (and Castro is still "cool" with Western liberals - credit for Daily Beast that they at least challenge this contradiction).

    https://www.thedailybeast.com/fidel-castros-horrific-record-on-gay-rights


    It is much easier simply to hate renegade white countries like Russia, Poland, Hungary, Italy or whichever European country is next to go rogue.

     

    Orban claims to be in conflict with the Western liberal ideology (although this is partly just election campaigning, his actual policies are classical liberal).

    It is understandable for Western anti-racists or liberals to hate Orban.

    But Putin's personal ideology is anti-racist and multinationalist. And then the "repressive laws", are more or less the same as in many Western European countries. Lack of "free speech absolutism" is dividing America from Europe. But not Western Europe from Russia.

    There's a lot lost in translation, when our "centrist" and "moderate" politician is hated by their "centrist" supporting journalists and citizens.

  159. @Dmitry
    @German_reader

    Degrees in politics and communication, may not be intellectually difficult to attain - but she at least completed the course, unlike Sebastian Kurz.

    Both her Sebastian Kurz, have never had a job or profession though. But she has a university qualification, which can be a test of having normal IQ and literacy. She has something on her CV under "Education".

    Her ascension to become the most powerful person in her country at 37 years old, is shocking. And even Sebastian Kurz becoming leader of Austria at 32 years is even more shocking.


    our societies that our “elites” consist of useless parasites who would be nothing without their party machines and their patronage networks.
     
    But neither her nor Kurz, are from any elites, which is how it becomes even more difficult to understand.

    They don't study in prestigious schools, or have any important family. They never had jobs in their life. They have no academic or intellectual ability. They don't have unusual personalities, or charisma, or original policies. And they reach the country's highest position while they are 30s. (Kurz second highest position, while he was 20s). Lol wtf.


    Mormon background, something needs to be done to check the spread of that cult.

     

    Obviously, Mormon beliefs are idiotic even by religious standards. But their external behaviour can be desirable. Salt Lake City, for example, is described as one of the best cities to live in America.

    Replies: @Hyperborean, @Thorfinnsson

    But neither her nor Kurz, are from any elites, which is how it becomes even more difficult to understand.

    They don’t study in prestigious schools, or have any important family. They never had jobs in their life. They have no academic or intellectual ability. They don’t have unusual personalities, or charisma, or original policies. And they reach the country’s highest position while they are 30s. (Kurz second highest position, while he was 20s). Lol wtf.

    It is not so surprising for party machines to function like this, the surprising thing to me is their age.

  160. Anonymous[151] • Disclaimer says:
    @German_reader
    @Dmitry


    So Israel should definitely not try to create relationships
     
    That's not the point (I'd actually agree), the point is that Israeli representatives and spokesmen of Jewish organizations have gone out of their way to validate the view of AfD as an illegitimate party of Nazis that ought to be crushed.
    There was a bizarre incident last year when former Mossad agent Rafi Eitan (one of those who captured Eichmann) met with AfD members in Germany and had friendly words for them - he was strongly condemned by the Israeli ambassador for that and eventually retracted his statements. Admittedly that also shows that Jewish views on those issues aren't monolithic, and to some extent I can even understand Jewish wariness about right-wing movements in Europe (there have been a few cases of explicit antisemites in AfD, though those have been isolated and AfD also has a few Jewish members). But still, on the whole the behaviour of official Jewry is really tiresome.

    That’s one of the most important things for Israel’s survival – to improve its relations with Muslim countries.
     
    It's unfortunate that Israel has picked the very worst Islamic countries, Saudi-Arabia and other Gulf states, for that project, it definitely makes a mockery of all those "Israel is a bulwark against Islamism" claims (though the same is of course true on a much larger scale for the US, and also for the dubious ties of European countries to those regimes).

    Replies: @Anonymous, @LondonBob, @Dmitry

    I think a distinction should be made between Israelis and American Jewish Zionists; they share common goals and work together, but their values are often very different (Israelis more pragmatic, conservative and “race realist,” American Jews more liberal, dreamy and idealistic). Also the relationship is very asymmetric (Israel depends to a large degree on American goodwill and support but has essentially nothing to offer America in return). Reading about the Blue and White Coalition, it seems to me they are basically offering Bibi’s policy but with symbolic and verbal concessions to American Jewish sensibilities (e.g. not palling around with Bolsonaro and Orban). The example you cite with AfD may be a similar dynamic: many Israelis may see AfD as sympathetic, but to associate with a fringe far-right German party is bad optics and may cost you American support, and as Dmitry points out is worthless from a strategic point of view.

    The relationship between Israel and KSA is I think a good example of this dynamic: neither side can formally ally itself with the other, in fact they are still officially hostile (KSA bars not only Israeli passport holders but anybody with evidence of travel to Israel), but they still have similar goals and their respective leaders will work together behind the scenes when necessary.

    I genuinely have no idea what the Israeli position on right-wing parties in Europe is, or even if they have a unified position. On the one hand these parties often have vague pro-Israel sentiments which is certainly better than the overtly pro-BDS position of a lot of the European left, but there is obviously a lot of negative historical baggage as well (has Marine Le Pen really renounced her father?). Is opposition to Muslim immigration to Europe a good thing or a bad thing for Israel? What about opposition to the EU? Whatever position they strike is sure to be one of pure self interest, but the calculation seems ambiguous. I agree with Dmitry that their pose is probably to remain on good terms with whomever is currently in power, and that they will try to avoid alienating the Americans (Chuck Schumer et al)

    Tl; dr I think the Israelis themselves are mostly realpolitik, but their dependence on America forces them to pay lip service to American neoliberalism and utopianism

    • Replies: @Mikhail
    @Anonymous

    Noteworthy the Israeli relationship with Russia versus the position taken by the likes of Engel and Schumer.

    Replies: @utu

    , @utu
    @Anonymous

    Supporting the alt-right wing parties in Europe is what Israel wants to do. They can't let the left-wing parties fall in love with Muslims in particular to the point of being against Israel. At the same time Israel will be supporting flooding the Europe with Muslims and the alt-right partie job is to do the fanning of Islamophobia. If there is not enough of it few terrorist attacks can always be arranged. Israel needs a repository of nationalist like Anders Breivik or Brenton Tarrant to prod them to action when some pro-Muslim and anti-Israel politicians have to be called to their senses. This in turn helps the left-wing parties to crack down on racism, anti-Semitism and freedom of speech. It is a win win tactics for Israel. Israel is playing a game of creating conflicts, keeping up the tensions, divide et impera and then offering apparent solutions.

    Replies: @for-the-record

    , @reiner Tor
    @Anonymous


    Israelis (...) pay lip service to American neoliberalism and utopianism
     
    If it were only lip service, they wouldn’t be so active in denouncing parties like the AfD.

    has Marine Le Pen really renounced her father?
     
    Yes, she has even kicked him out of the party. What else do Israelis want?

    And it’s not like Le Pen was Hitler. He said some bad things about Jews.

    Replies: @Anonymous

  161. @Thorfinnsson
    @Mikhail

    This is just an affiliate marketing site. It's not like he's actually testing or even reviewing the motor oil.

    I've always used Mobil One.

    Replies: @Mikhail

    I’d like to see the specifics behind that rating as well, which varies by different categories for best oil:

    – synthetic
    – conventional
    – 0-20
    – blend
    – high mileage (75, 000 and over) synthetic

    A more detailed venue:

    https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/

    On the subject of engine oil for cars, I’m of the view that as long as you put in the recommended weight and change within a reasoned time, there will be no problems, whatever you use: Amazon, Walmart, Mobil, Royal Purple….. This view excludes driving a car with regular temperatures at single digits and less.

    If the manual calls for full synthetic, then by all means use it.

    More important is the quality of the oil filter. Offhand, the Mobil extended life and Fram full synthetic filters seem like the best options. Royal Purple oil filters are considered as good if not better. Its price is noticeably higher when compared to the aforementioned other two which sell at Walmart for around $10.00.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    @Mikhail

    I think your view is correct, but given that engine oil is not expensive it gives me peace of mind to purchase the best.

    Replies: @Mikhail

  162. @Anonymous
    @German_reader

    I think a distinction should be made between Israelis and American Jewish Zionists; they share common goals and work together, but their values are often very different (Israelis more pragmatic, conservative and "race realist," American Jews more liberal, dreamy and idealistic). Also the relationship is very asymmetric (Israel depends to a large degree on American goodwill and support but has essentially nothing to offer America in return). Reading about the Blue and White Coalition, it seems to me they are basically offering Bibi's policy but with symbolic and verbal concessions to American Jewish sensibilities (e.g. not palling around with Bolsonaro and Orban). The example you cite with AfD may be a similar dynamic: many Israelis may see AfD as sympathetic, but to associate with a fringe far-right German party is bad optics and may cost you American support, and as Dmitry points out is worthless from a strategic point of view.

    The relationship between Israel and KSA is I think a good example of this dynamic: neither side can formally ally itself with the other, in fact they are still officially hostile (KSA bars not only Israeli passport holders but anybody with evidence of travel to Israel), but they still have similar goals and their respective leaders will work together behind the scenes when necessary.

    I genuinely have no idea what the Israeli position on right-wing parties in Europe is, or even if they have a unified position. On the one hand these parties often have vague pro-Israel sentiments which is certainly better than the overtly pro-BDS position of a lot of the European left, but there is obviously a lot of negative historical baggage as well (has Marine Le Pen really renounced her father?). Is opposition to Muslim immigration to Europe a good thing or a bad thing for Israel? What about opposition to the EU? Whatever position they strike is sure to be one of pure self interest, but the calculation seems ambiguous. I agree with Dmitry that their pose is probably to remain on good terms with whomever is currently in power, and that they will try to avoid alienating the Americans (Chuck Schumer et al)

    Tl; dr I think the Israelis themselves are mostly realpolitik, but their dependence on America forces them to pay lip service to American neoliberalism and utopianism

    Replies: @Mikhail, @utu, @reiner Tor

    Noteworthy the Israeli relationship with Russia versus the position taken by the likes of Engel and Schumer.

    • Replies: @utu
    @Mikhail


    Noteworthy the Israeli relationship with Russia versus the position taken by the likes of Engel and Schumer.
     
    This is a part of bigger game plan. For Putin the only road to Washington goes through Jerusalem and vice versa for Trump.
  163. @Anonymous
    @German_reader

    I think a distinction should be made between Israelis and American Jewish Zionists; they share common goals and work together, but their values are often very different (Israelis more pragmatic, conservative and "race realist," American Jews more liberal, dreamy and idealistic). Also the relationship is very asymmetric (Israel depends to a large degree on American goodwill and support but has essentially nothing to offer America in return). Reading about the Blue and White Coalition, it seems to me they are basically offering Bibi's policy but with symbolic and verbal concessions to American Jewish sensibilities (e.g. not palling around with Bolsonaro and Orban). The example you cite with AfD may be a similar dynamic: many Israelis may see AfD as sympathetic, but to associate with a fringe far-right German party is bad optics and may cost you American support, and as Dmitry points out is worthless from a strategic point of view.

    The relationship between Israel and KSA is I think a good example of this dynamic: neither side can formally ally itself with the other, in fact they are still officially hostile (KSA bars not only Israeli passport holders but anybody with evidence of travel to Israel), but they still have similar goals and their respective leaders will work together behind the scenes when necessary.

    I genuinely have no idea what the Israeli position on right-wing parties in Europe is, or even if they have a unified position. On the one hand these parties often have vague pro-Israel sentiments which is certainly better than the overtly pro-BDS position of a lot of the European left, but there is obviously a lot of negative historical baggage as well (has Marine Le Pen really renounced her father?). Is opposition to Muslim immigration to Europe a good thing or a bad thing for Israel? What about opposition to the EU? Whatever position they strike is sure to be one of pure self interest, but the calculation seems ambiguous. I agree with Dmitry that their pose is probably to remain on good terms with whomever is currently in power, and that they will try to avoid alienating the Americans (Chuck Schumer et al)

    Tl; dr I think the Israelis themselves are mostly realpolitik, but their dependence on America forces them to pay lip service to American neoliberalism and utopianism

    Replies: @Mikhail, @utu, @reiner Tor

    Supporting the alt-right wing parties in Europe is what Israel wants to do. They can’t let the left-wing parties fall in love with Muslims in particular to the point of being against Israel. At the same time Israel will be supporting flooding the Europe with Muslims and the alt-right partie job is to do the fanning of Islamophobia. If there is not enough of it few terrorist attacks can always be arranged. Israel needs a repository of nationalist like Anders Breivik or Brenton Tarrant to prod them to action when some pro-Muslim and anti-Israel politicians have to be called to their senses. This in turn helps the left-wing parties to crack down on racism, anti-Semitism and freedom of speech. It is a win win tactics for Israel. Israel is playing a game of creating conflicts, keeping up the tensions, divide et impera and then offering apparent solutions.

    • Replies: @for-the-record
    @utu

    Israel is playing a game of creating conflicts, keeping up the tensions, divide et impera and then offering apparent solutions.

    And all the while distracting world attention from what's going on in the "Occupied Territories".

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/ca/IsraeliSettlementGrowthLineGraph.png

  164. @Mikhail
    @Anonymous

    Noteworthy the Israeli relationship with Russia versus the position taken by the likes of Engel and Schumer.

    Replies: @utu

    Noteworthy the Israeli relationship with Russia versus the position taken by the likes of Engel and Schumer.

    This is a part of bigger game plan. For Putin the only road to Washington goes through Jerusalem and vice versa for Trump.

  165. @utu
    @DFH


    Honestly, when the war in Ukraine started I was quite pro-Ukrainian but now I have grown to understand completely why people hate you (Ukrainian nationalists).
     
    Poland is taking Ukrainian gastarbeiters and immigrants by millions w/o any gestures of contrition and atonements from Ukrainians for the Volhynia genocide. It is really hard to understand it.

    Replies: @WHAT, @JL, @AP

    Perhaps they feel solidarity in their hatred of Russia, something that exists much more in the here-and-now, and this allows them to overcome historical enmities.

  166. JL says:
    @Dmitry
    @Dmitry


    Netanyahu is less of an Israel partisan – he tried to return the Golan Heights to Syria more than one time.

     

    Apparently, it was two times:

    In 1998:
    http://www.danielpipes.org/311/the-road-to-damascus-what-netanyahu-almost-gave-away

    And in 2010:
    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/netanyahu-prepared-to-hand-back-golan-heights-to-syria-in-return-for-peace-say-reports-8209612.html

    It would have destroyed his popularity - Israel has its only ski resort there.

    Replies: @Anon, @DFH, @JL

    Israel has its only ski resort there.

    Starting this year, there is now a direct flight between Tel Aviv and Sochi. The ski resorts there have been inundated with Israelis, to the extent that Hebrew will be, by far, the language you are most likely to hear after Russian. Sochi is, apparently, a superior substitute to the Alps; closer, cheaper, and Israelis don’t need a visa to visit Russia.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    @JL


    Israelis don’t need a visa to visit Russia
     
    Really? That's interesting. They need one to visit the US (although the reverse is not true).
    , @Dmitry
    @JL

    I think there was direct flight between Sochi and Tel Aviv since 2014?

    But the way Israel operates visa-free with Russia (Ukraine, Georgia, Belarus, etc), is perhaps more bad than good.

    They have an open visa regime. But then instead they operate "immigration control" in the airport with Russia/Ukraine/Belarus people, and they particularly deport Ukrainians.

    In response, Ukraine started an airport war , and is doing the same to Israelis.
    https://zn.ua/international/unizhennye-i-vozmuschennye-311939_.html

  167. Anonymous[151] • Disclaimer says:
    @JL
    @Dmitry


    Israel has its only ski resort there.
     
    Starting this year, there is now a direct flight between Tel Aviv and Sochi. The ski resorts there have been inundated with Israelis, to the extent that Hebrew will be, by far, the language you are most likely to hear after Russian. Sochi is, apparently, a superior substitute to the Alps; closer, cheaper, and Israelis don't need a visa to visit Russia.

    Replies: @Anonymous, @Dmitry

    Israelis don’t need a visa to visit Russia

    Really? That’s interesting. They need one to visit the US (although the reverse is not true).

  168. @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan
    @reiner Tor

    I hesitate to answer that without thinking about it in categorical terms

    I will say for now that the following come to mind as very good books

    For a one volume political summary, that focuses on 1848-1861, I highly recommend 'The Impending Crisis' by historian by David Potter.

    For a longer summary, I quite like William Freehling's two-volume book 'The Road to Disunion.' Freehling focuses on the development of secessionist politics in the South, with enough background info on the North to know what was going on there. He goes into extensive detail and depth on social aspects. You will learn about the many differences between the respective Southern states. Freehling is also rather a fun writer; Potter has lots of good anecdotes, and knows how to write a narrative with pace.

    IIRC, Freehling's main argument, with which I mostly agreed, is that as white men began to become more egalitarian (towards themselves, that is, not towards other races/cultures - Jackson is a good example), the domestic elitism, so to speak, of slavery inevitably clashed with the larger political culture, including, to a surprisingly large degree, within the South itself.

    David Detzer wrote a fine summary of the actual outbreak of the war - the Sumter crisis. It is called 'Allegiance.'

    For a summary of the war itself, 'Battle Cry of Freedom' is, again, pretty good. I have to admit, though, I've mostly read specific topics from the war, and very few summary-type books.

    Shelby Foote and Bruce Catton, again, were the classic popular Civil War writers of the mid 20th century. Being a Northerner (though I have rebels in the family tree), Catton's Michigan style is appealing to me more so than Foote. Foote was arguably a better writer, though.

    There are copious memoirs from the war. Both armies were, in fact, highly literate. And the guys who could write were much better writers than today's average people.

    Whatever you do, don't read Thomas DiLorenzo or Garry Wills. DiLorenzo is a pro-Confederate partisan, while Wills is the kind of guy who tries to interpret Lincoln as belonging to a kind of multicultural liberal tradition. They're both hacks, though DiLorenzo probably commits more sins offensive to the discipline of history.

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @Beckow

    Thanks for the recommendations!

  169. @Anonymous
    @German_reader

    I think a distinction should be made between Israelis and American Jewish Zionists; they share common goals and work together, but their values are often very different (Israelis more pragmatic, conservative and "race realist," American Jews more liberal, dreamy and idealistic). Also the relationship is very asymmetric (Israel depends to a large degree on American goodwill and support but has essentially nothing to offer America in return). Reading about the Blue and White Coalition, it seems to me they are basically offering Bibi's policy but with symbolic and verbal concessions to American Jewish sensibilities (e.g. not palling around with Bolsonaro and Orban). The example you cite with AfD may be a similar dynamic: many Israelis may see AfD as sympathetic, but to associate with a fringe far-right German party is bad optics and may cost you American support, and as Dmitry points out is worthless from a strategic point of view.

    The relationship between Israel and KSA is I think a good example of this dynamic: neither side can formally ally itself with the other, in fact they are still officially hostile (KSA bars not only Israeli passport holders but anybody with evidence of travel to Israel), but they still have similar goals and their respective leaders will work together behind the scenes when necessary.

    I genuinely have no idea what the Israeli position on right-wing parties in Europe is, or even if they have a unified position. On the one hand these parties often have vague pro-Israel sentiments which is certainly better than the overtly pro-BDS position of a lot of the European left, but there is obviously a lot of negative historical baggage as well (has Marine Le Pen really renounced her father?). Is opposition to Muslim immigration to Europe a good thing or a bad thing for Israel? What about opposition to the EU? Whatever position they strike is sure to be one of pure self interest, but the calculation seems ambiguous. I agree with Dmitry that their pose is probably to remain on good terms with whomever is currently in power, and that they will try to avoid alienating the Americans (Chuck Schumer et al)

    Tl; dr I think the Israelis themselves are mostly realpolitik, but their dependence on America forces them to pay lip service to American neoliberalism and utopianism

    Replies: @Mikhail, @utu, @reiner Tor

    Israelis (…) pay lip service to American neoliberalism and utopianism

    If it were only lip service, they wouldn’t be so active in denouncing parties like the AfD.

    has Marine Le Pen really renounced her father?

    Yes, she has even kicked him out of the party. What else do Israelis want?

    And it’s not like Le Pen was Hitler. He said some bad things about Jews.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    @reiner Tor

    How energetic has Israel really been in denouncing AfD? Google isn't showing me a ton. I see that some wings of Afd are pushing to outlaw male circumcision and kosher slaughterhouses. Even if one supports these positions (and yes I understand that they are primarily directed at Muslims) it's not hard to see why many Jews would take a dim view of a party that seriously entertained them. Regardless I don't think Israel is responsible in any significant way for the failures of the AfD.

    Comments like Le Pen's are just that, comments, not binding decrees with the force of law, but as with e.g. the recent Israeli comments about Poland they are insensitive and ill advised (to say the least).

  170. @Dmitry
    @German_reader

    In my opinion, at least that is clever - to reject contact with AfD. (Unless AfD seem to be winning an election).

    Putin has been in this stupid decision to have contact with opposition political parties, with government contact with both Marine Le Pen and AfD .

    Le Pen at least, will never be President, so there is no benefit for Russia. The cost of having this contact, was to make Russia and Putin more unpopular with the rulers and journalists of France.

    Merkel is subsidizing construction of Israeli submarines. So if Israeli leadership are not idiots, they should publicly support Merkel 100%, since she is paying for part of their nuclear deterrent.

    Because Israeli leadership* is believing similar things about Muslims, as AfD (you can see Yair Netanyahu's Twitter to imagine what they say in the Netanyahu house) - it probably itself means Israel should even try to avoid association with opposition like AfD or Le Pen even more

    -
    * Israeli television program, seems more or less the same as Fox News on this topic

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=amdtD6_JqLE

    Replies: @reiner Tor

    It’s one thing to avoid association with AfD, it’s another to actively denounce it to the point of actively pressuring Jews who had slightly friendly contacts to it. Israelis do the latter.

  171. @for-the-record
    @reiner Tor

    they are suing the Hungarian State Railways for its role in the holocaust. I mean, it’s not like the state railways company was in any position to make decisions or anything

    Well, French and Dutch national railways accepted to pay reparations (in the case of the SNCF, to Holocaust survivors in the US), and they were defeated countries not allies of Germany. So my guess is that Hungary is going to have to go a very long way to ingratiate itself with the US/Israel to avoid a massive settlement.

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @Grahamsno(G64)

    I don’t think it’s possible to appease them to the point that they stop the lawsuit. After all, those participating in it probably don’t care enough for Israel to renounce their billion dollar claims. People are rarely fanatical enough about anything that they would be willing to renounce billion dollar claims for it. The lawsuit is just a fact of life like an earthquake.

    Another interesting angle is American judicial overreach. When Belgium started issuing arrest warrants against people like Ariel Sharon, it was ridiculous. But America actually has the strength to make its courts the arbiters of justice about events which happened three quarters of a century ago in countries which the judges never saw (nor do they know particularly much about it from secondary sources), under circumstances unimaginable to them (or American legislators or law enforcement agencies), etc.

    One would think it’s dangerous for Jews to push the holocaust reparations issue any further at this point, but they don’t seem to care. Maybe they think they can pull it off forever. Or at least for several decades into the future. The latter seems certainly likely.

  172. @DFH
    @LondonBob


    I am not aware that Cromwell committed any atrocities, the only three I am aware of are the massacre of Bolton residents by Royalists, and the massacre at the siege of Basing House where Cromwell was the commander and some womenfolk camp followers who were killed at some battle.
     
    Ummmmmmmm........ Does the name Drogheda ring a bell?

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b8/Massacre_at_Drogheda.jpeg

    Replies: @songbird, @LondonBob

    Obviously you aren’t aware of what happened when fortified position were stormed, see Badajoz. Any actual examples where Cromwell committed atrocities or is that it?

    • Replies: @DFH
    @LondonBob

    It's not the same since Cromwell condoned massacres at Drogheda, Wellington did not at Badajoz.

    Replies: @LondonBob

  173. @German_reader
    @Dmitry


    So Israel should definitely not try to create relationships
     
    That's not the point (I'd actually agree), the point is that Israeli representatives and spokesmen of Jewish organizations have gone out of their way to validate the view of AfD as an illegitimate party of Nazis that ought to be crushed.
    There was a bizarre incident last year when former Mossad agent Rafi Eitan (one of those who captured Eichmann) met with AfD members in Germany and had friendly words for them - he was strongly condemned by the Israeli ambassador for that and eventually retracted his statements. Admittedly that also shows that Jewish views on those issues aren't monolithic, and to some extent I can even understand Jewish wariness about right-wing movements in Europe (there have been a few cases of explicit antisemites in AfD, though those have been isolated and AfD also has a few Jewish members). But still, on the whole the behaviour of official Jewry is really tiresome.

    That’s one of the most important things for Israel’s survival – to improve its relations with Muslim countries.
     
    It's unfortunate that Israel has picked the very worst Islamic countries, Saudi-Arabia and other Gulf states, for that project, it definitely makes a mockery of all those "Israel is a bulwark against Islamism" claims (though the same is of course true on a much larger scale for the US, and also for the dubious ties of European countries to those regimes).

    Replies: @Anonymous, @LondonBob, @Dmitry

    Don’t Afd have relations with Pamela Geller and the dark zionist money coming from the US to ensure any nationalist movement doesn’t go the wrong way? Normally they obsess about Muslims but stay silent on immigration from Africa like Tommy Robinson.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @LondonBob


    Don’t Afd have relations with Pamela Geller
     
    No idea. My impression is there are several wings in AfD (also true for other matters). You've got people who are basically thinking along the same lines common here (e.g. Assad and Russia are good because they're killing jihadis, Israel and the US are hypocrites who secretly support them).
    On the other hand, you've got people in AfD or AfD's orbit who think it's a good idea to criticise Merkel and other members of her government for not being deferential enough to Trump and the US or supposedly selling out Israel's security to evil Iran.
    The basic problem imo is that even among "alternative" media outlets (which in fact are often critical or hostile to AfD, but are nonetheless read by many AfD voters, because there's not much else) you've got a lot of pro-Zionist pieces which present a rather selective picture of the facts. One of those sites Tichy's Einblick is basically running at least one such piece every week, repeating all the propaganda lines (Iran is building nuclear weapons and threatening peaceful Israel and the good Muslims of the Gulf states). Another site Achse des Guten is strongly influenced by Henryk M. Broder, a son of Holocaust survivors (whose sentiments are predictably anti-German, if you look closely enough, which many people don't do), who was a strong cheerleader of the 2003 invasion of Iraq (basically you were just an unreconstructed Nazi if you didn't agree with the invasion) and is also constantly warning about Iran. Unfortunately many people are unable to shake off their conditioning and uncritically swallow those arguments, attacking Merkel (who in general has been absolutely disastrous) for one of the few issues (the Iran nuclear deal) where her stance is actually defensible imo.

    Replies: @utu

  174. @LondonBob
    @DFH

    Obviously you aren't aware of what happened when fortified position were stormed, see Badajoz. Any actual examples where Cromwell committed atrocities or is that it?

    Replies: @DFH

    It’s not the same since Cromwell condoned massacres at Drogheda, Wellington did not at Badajoz.

    • Replies: @LondonBob
    @DFH

    Well after the appalling massacres of English and Scottish settlers in the Irish uprising there was always likely to be a reaction, an element missing at Badajoz. Still no other examples? Cromwell actually enforced strict punishment for stealing when the New Model Army campaigned in Ireland.

  175. @German_reader
    @songbird


    It must have something to do with “Wolf Hall”
     
    That show is about Thomas Cromwell, not Oliver.

    Replies: @for-the-record, @LondonBob, @songbird

    That show is about Thomas Cromwell, not Oliver.

    I am assuming that Songbird knew that, and was implying that the Cromwell “family” name had somehow been rehabilitated by the program.

    • Replies: @LondonBob
    @for-the-record

    It was already rehabilitated a long time ago, the Cromwell statue was erected around 1900 outside Parliament.

  176. @Dmitry
    @reiner Tor


    See the numerous Jews supporting Bolshevism still in the early 1950s, long after it ceased being good for the Jews.

     

    It's an autistic theory of mind.

    What you believe is influenced by emotions and this has a racial component particularly when minorities want stronger position in society. Ideologies which favor the latter,may have a more rosy emotional coloration (i.e. seem more attractive).

    But people cannot actually believe or not believe in truth of something, on basis of "racial interest and longterm conspiracies". They believe it because they believe it is the true description of reality.

    Marxism was more religion than political theory, and like Christianity a Jewish-originated religion - (it's structure almost the same as Christianity), whose liberation was universalist. And people who believed it, believed because they thought it was universally true and factual description of reality.

    It was designed for educated people of the era, designed to be easy to believe (supernatural explanations are hidden by Hegelian concepts like "dialectic"), and for Jews it gave opportunity to "completely assimilate" (covert to a kind living Christianity, rather than the formal one which no longer had influence in the world).

    Attraction of Marxism for Jews, precisely is to escape both their external and internal position as Jews, and dissolve into a universal faith and utopia.

    Minus utopia, of course, this is what will have occurred with much of (or most?) Jews believers of Marxism. Their grandchildren today, will usually be 3/4 Slavic, and their great-grandchildren, 7/8 Slavic.

    The "racial interest" to convert to Marxism was to dissolve an unpleasant and dangerous position as Jews, to become important citizens, and this is what happened for a large proportion of them.


    Similarly with multiculturalism, it will likely be negative for the Jews,

     

    Multiculturalism is intrinsically attractive for a large proportion of any population.

    Putin is not Jewish, but he loves multiculturalism almost as his main religion. Merkel is not Jewish, and loves it. Obama not Jewish and loves it.

    It was one of the ideologies which has included both sides of the Cold War. If you think this is only attractive to Jews, and not something intrinsically and universally attractive to a significant proportion of people, then you will soon be confused (unless you extend the conspiracy to include all these people like Putin and Merkel being controlled by Jews).

    Multiculturalism is definitely a "utopian" ideology though, and will soon collapse against reality in most countries.

    Replies: @Dmitry, @German_reader, @reiner Tor

    It’s an autistic theory of mind.

    Projection. See:

    But people cannot actually believe or not believe in truth of something, on basis of “racial interest and longterm conspiracies”. They believe it because they believe it is the true description of reality.

    In reality, people usually find it easier to believe what is good for them or which is compatible with their other beliefs. In my experience Jews (and, to be honest, other highly committed nationalists – I have noticed similar things with Hungarian nationalists) often cannot imagine that what is good for them can be neutral or even negative for any universalistic metric.

    So Jews will not even notice that there is a difference between a Jew who explicitly argues that multiculturalism is good because it’s good for the Jews and a gentile white who argues that it’s good because it’s morally good. Interestingly, even you didn’t notice it. Contrary to your assertion, those Jews are rarely cynical, because of course they also use universalistic moral arguments. They don’t even notice that the two are not the same, or that at least in theory there could be a contradiction.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @reiner Tor

    Exactly - my point is your writings appeared autistic. The text appeared to be written by someone who has no understanding of the people he is assigning motives to (or people in general).

    Therefore, the recent projections you made where you were calling people like myself, who didn't share your political opinions, "autistic normies". It is an interesting contradiction of terms, as "normies" is the term used by people with autistic spectrum disorders to refer to non-autistic people.

    I think part of this is just reading too much "evolutionary psychology" books. But part of it is obviously a theory of mind.

    Here you believe view that peoples' ideologies are based in racial self-interest, and that this racial interest can result in complicated longterm conspiracies.

    But then you are confused that Bolshevik Jews still supporting the USSR in the 1950s, when supporting USSR was not "aligned with Jewish racial interests".

    You then mention confusion that their ideologies go against racial self-interest, and attribute this to their "stupidity" (you can re-read your post) or lack of conspiracy skills.

    I needn't add the obvious fact, that Bolshevik Jews were still supporting the USSR in the 1950s, because and to the extent they were still Bolsheviks.

    Marx, himself wanted Jews to dissolve as a separate nationality, and believed the end of capitalism will make "Jews impossible".
    https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1844/jewish-question/index.htm

    Replies: @reiner Tor

  177. @utu
    @Anonymous

    Supporting the alt-right wing parties in Europe is what Israel wants to do. They can't let the left-wing parties fall in love with Muslims in particular to the point of being against Israel. At the same time Israel will be supporting flooding the Europe with Muslims and the alt-right partie job is to do the fanning of Islamophobia. If there is not enough of it few terrorist attacks can always be arranged. Israel needs a repository of nationalist like Anders Breivik or Brenton Tarrant to prod them to action when some pro-Muslim and anti-Israel politicians have to be called to their senses. This in turn helps the left-wing parties to crack down on racism, anti-Semitism and freedom of speech. It is a win win tactics for Israel. Israel is playing a game of creating conflicts, keeping up the tensions, divide et impera and then offering apparent solutions.

    Replies: @for-the-record

    Israel is playing a game of creating conflicts, keeping up the tensions, divide et impera and then offering apparent solutions.

    And all the while distracting world attention from what’s going on in the “Occupied Territories”.

  178. @reiner Tor
    @for-the-record

    I don’t think it’s possible to appease them to the point that they stop the lawsuit. After all, those participating in it probably don’t care enough for Israel to renounce their billion dollar claims. People are rarely fanatical enough about anything that they would be willing to renounce billion dollar claims for it. The lawsuit is just a fact of life like an earthquake.

    Another interesting angle is American judicial overreach. When Belgium started issuing arrest warrants against people like Ariel Sharon, it was ridiculous. But America actually has the strength to make its courts the arbiters of justice about events which happened three quarters of a century ago in countries which the judges never saw (nor do they know particularly much about it from secondary sources), under circumstances unimaginable to them (or American legislators or law enforcement agencies), etc.

    One would think it’s dangerous for Jews to push the holocaust reparations issue any further at this point, but they don’t seem to care. Maybe they think they can pull it off forever. Or at least for several decades into the future. The latter seems certainly likely.

    Replies: @LondonBob, @for-the-record

    Hungary should start suing Israel for Communism.

  179. @DFH
    @LondonBob

    It's not the same since Cromwell condoned massacres at Drogheda, Wellington did not at Badajoz.

    Replies: @LondonBob

    Well after the appalling massacres of English and Scottish settlers in the Irish uprising there was always likely to be a reaction, an element missing at Badajoz. Still no other examples? Cromwell actually enforced strict punishment for stealing when the New Model Army campaigned in Ireland.

  180. @German_reader
    @songbird


    It must have something to do with “Wolf Hall”
     
    That show is about Thomas Cromwell, not Oliver.

    Replies: @for-the-record, @LondonBob, @songbird

    Related through Thomas Cromwell’s sister who was Oliver’s grandmother, or something along those lines. The maternal name was adopted as it was beneficial to be associated with Thomas.

  181. @for-the-record
    @German_reader

    That show is about Thomas Cromwell, not Oliver.

    I am assuming that Songbird knew that, and was implying that the Cromwell "family" name had somehow been rehabilitated by the program.

    Replies: @LondonBob

    It was already rehabilitated a long time ago, the Cromwell statue was erected around 1900 outside Parliament.

  182. @reiner Tor
    @for-the-record

    I don’t think it’s possible to appease them to the point that they stop the lawsuit. After all, those participating in it probably don’t care enough for Israel to renounce their billion dollar claims. People are rarely fanatical enough about anything that they would be willing to renounce billion dollar claims for it. The lawsuit is just a fact of life like an earthquake.

    Another interesting angle is American judicial overreach. When Belgium started issuing arrest warrants against people like Ariel Sharon, it was ridiculous. But America actually has the strength to make its courts the arbiters of justice about events which happened three quarters of a century ago in countries which the judges never saw (nor do they know particularly much about it from secondary sources), under circumstances unimaginable to them (or American legislators or law enforcement agencies), etc.

    One would think it’s dangerous for Jews to push the holocaust reparations issue any further at this point, but they don’t seem to care. Maybe they think they can pull it off forever. Or at least for several decades into the future. The latter seems certainly likely.

    Replies: @LondonBob, @for-the-record

    • Agree: reiner Tor
  183. German_reader says:
    @LondonBob
    @German_reader

    Don't Afd have relations with Pamela Geller and the dark zionist money coming from the US to ensure any nationalist movement doesn't go the wrong way? Normally they obsess about Muslims but stay silent on immigration from Africa like Tommy Robinson.

    Replies: @German_reader

    Don’t Afd have relations with Pamela Geller

    No idea. My impression is there are several wings in AfD (also true for other matters). You’ve got people who are basically thinking along the same lines common here (e.g. Assad and Russia are good because they’re killing jihadis, Israel and the US are hypocrites who secretly support them).
    On the other hand, you’ve got people in AfD or AfD’s orbit who think it’s a good idea to criticise Merkel and other members of her government for not being deferential enough to Trump and the US or supposedly selling out Israel’s security to evil Iran.
    The basic problem imo is that even among “alternative” media outlets (which in fact are often critical or hostile to AfD, but are nonetheless read by many AfD voters, because there’s not much else) you’ve got a lot of pro-Zionist pieces which present a rather selective picture of the facts. One of those sites Tichy’s Einblick is basically running at least one such piece every week, repeating all the propaganda lines (Iran is building nuclear weapons and threatening peaceful Israel and the good Muslims of the Gulf states). Another site Achse des Guten is strongly influenced by Henryk M. Broder, a son of Holocaust survivors (whose sentiments are predictably anti-German, if you look closely enough, which many people don’t do), who was a strong cheerleader of the 2003 invasion of Iraq (basically you were just an unreconstructed Nazi if you didn’t agree with the invasion) and is also constantly warning about Iran. Unfortunately many people are unable to shake off their conditioning and uncritically swallow those arguments, attacking Merkel (who in general has been absolutely disastrous) for one of the few issues (the Iran nuclear deal) where her stance is actually defensible imo.

    • Replies: @utu
    @German_reader


    ISLAMOPHOBIC U.S. MEGADONOR FUELS GERMAN FAR-RIGHT PARTY WITH VIRAL FAKE NEWS
    https://theintercept.com/2017/09/22/german-election-afd-gatestone-institute/
    But one of the major publishers of online content friendly to the far-right party is an American website financed in large part and lead by Jewish philanthropist Nina Rosenwald.

    Rosenwald’s site, the Gatestone Institute, publishes a steady flow of inflammatory content about the German election, focused on stoking fears about immigrants and Muslims.
     

    The Sugar Mama of Anti-Muslim Hate
    https://www.thenation.com/article/sugar-mama-anti-muslim-hate/
    Philanthropist Nina Rosenwald has used her millions to cement the alliance between the pro-Israel lobby and the Islamophobic fringe.
     

    Replies: @German_reader

  184. @German_reader
    @LondonBob


    Don’t Afd have relations with Pamela Geller
     
    No idea. My impression is there are several wings in AfD (also true for other matters). You've got people who are basically thinking along the same lines common here (e.g. Assad and Russia are good because they're killing jihadis, Israel and the US are hypocrites who secretly support them).
    On the other hand, you've got people in AfD or AfD's orbit who think it's a good idea to criticise Merkel and other members of her government for not being deferential enough to Trump and the US or supposedly selling out Israel's security to evil Iran.
    The basic problem imo is that even among "alternative" media outlets (which in fact are often critical or hostile to AfD, but are nonetheless read by many AfD voters, because there's not much else) you've got a lot of pro-Zionist pieces which present a rather selective picture of the facts. One of those sites Tichy's Einblick is basically running at least one such piece every week, repeating all the propaganda lines (Iran is building nuclear weapons and threatening peaceful Israel and the good Muslims of the Gulf states). Another site Achse des Guten is strongly influenced by Henryk M. Broder, a son of Holocaust survivors (whose sentiments are predictably anti-German, if you look closely enough, which many people don't do), who was a strong cheerleader of the 2003 invasion of Iraq (basically you were just an unreconstructed Nazi if you didn't agree with the invasion) and is also constantly warning about Iran. Unfortunately many people are unable to shake off their conditioning and uncritically swallow those arguments, attacking Merkel (who in general has been absolutely disastrous) for one of the few issues (the Iran nuclear deal) where her stance is actually defensible imo.

    Replies: @utu

    ISLAMOPHOBIC U.S. MEGADONOR FUELS GERMAN FAR-RIGHT PARTY WITH VIRAL FAKE NEWS
    https://theintercept.com/2017/09/22/german-election-afd-gatestone-institute/
    But one of the major publishers of online content friendly to the far-right party is an American website financed in large part and lead by Jewish philanthropist Nina Rosenwald.

    Rosenwald’s site, the Gatestone Institute, publishes a steady flow of inflammatory content about the German election, focused on stoking fears about immigrants and Muslims.

    The Sugar Mama of Anti-Muslim Hate
    https://www.thenation.com/article/sugar-mama-anti-muslim-hate/
    Philanthropist Nina Rosenwald has used her millions to cement the alliance between the pro-Israel lobby and the Islamophobic fringe.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @utu

    I know, I'm wary of those people.
    But tbh, I don't have a problem with Islamophobia in principle. I'm an Islamophobe myself. And Merkel's policy really has been disastrous and will lead to Germany's destruction. She is undoubtedly one of the worst figures in German history.

    Replies: @utu, @Grahamsno(G64)

  185. @utu
    @German_reader


    ISLAMOPHOBIC U.S. MEGADONOR FUELS GERMAN FAR-RIGHT PARTY WITH VIRAL FAKE NEWS
    https://theintercept.com/2017/09/22/german-election-afd-gatestone-institute/
    But one of the major publishers of online content friendly to the far-right party is an American website financed in large part and lead by Jewish philanthropist Nina Rosenwald.

    Rosenwald’s site, the Gatestone Institute, publishes a steady flow of inflammatory content about the German election, focused on stoking fears about immigrants and Muslims.
     

    The Sugar Mama of Anti-Muslim Hate
    https://www.thenation.com/article/sugar-mama-anti-muslim-hate/
    Philanthropist Nina Rosenwald has used her millions to cement the alliance between the pro-Israel lobby and the Islamophobic fringe.
     

    Replies: @German_reader

    I know, I’m wary of those people.
    But tbh, I don’t have a problem with Islamophobia in principle. I’m an Islamophobe myself. And Merkel’s policy really has been disastrous and will lead to Germany’s destruction. She is undoubtedly one of the worst figures in German history.

    • Replies: @utu
    @German_reader


    I don’t have a problem with Islamophobia in principle
     
    I do but I am willing to accept it if it would be helping to keep Europe Muslim free. So far it does not and the only outcome of Islamophobia is support of Israel.

    Replies: @Dmitry

    , @Grahamsno(G64)
    @German_reader

    Long time back when you could comment on all topics in the Guardian I asked a question about the cost/benefit analysis of mass Muslim migration to the west, I pointed out that on the cost side I saw a rapidly growing mound of dead bodies and I said that the benefits would have to be extraordinary to justify the cost could someone just point out the benefit to me as I seemed to have missed it. Complete silence but the comment was allowed to stand.

    Allowing Muslim mass migration to any non Muslim society is literally suicidally stupid.

  186. New evidence, perhaps, that would finally confirm the charge of collusion in the 2016 US Presidential election:

    As Russia collusion fades, Ukrainian plot to help Clinton emerges

    Ukraine’s top prosecutor divulged in an interview aired Wednesday on Hill.TV that he has opened an investigation into whether his country’s law enforcement apparatus intentionally leaked financial records during the 2016 U.S. presidential campaign about then-Trump campaign chairman Paul Manafort in an effort to sway the election in favor of Hillary Clinton.

    The leak of the so-called black ledger files to U.S. media prompted Manafort’s resignation from the Trump campaign and gave rise to one of the key allegations in the Russia collusion probe that has dogged Trump for the last two and a half years.

    Ukraine Prosecutor General Yurii Lutsenko’s probe was prompted by a Ukrainian parliamentarian’s release of a tape recording purporting to quote a top law enforcement official as saying his agency leaked the Manafort financial records to help Clinton’s campaign.

    The parliamentarian also secured a court ruling that the leak amounted to “an illegal intrusion into the American election campaign,” Lutsenko told me. Lutsenko said the tape recording is a serious enough allegation to warrant opening a probe, and one of his concerns is that the Ukrainian law enforcement agency involved had frequent contact with the Obama administration’s U.S. Embassy in Kiev at the time . . .

    Lutsenko’s interview with Hill.TV raises another troubling dynamic: The U.S. Embassy and the chief Ukrainian prosecutor, who America entrusts with fighting corruption inside an allied country, currently have a dysfunctional relationship.

    In our interview, Lutsenko accused the Obama-era U.S. Embassy in 2016 of interfering in his ability to prosecute corruption cases, saying the U.S. ambassador gave him a list of defendants that he would not be allowed to pursue and then refused to cooperate in an early investigation into the alleged misappropriation of U.S. aid in Ukraine.

    Lutsenko provided me with a letter from the embassy, supporting part of his story by showing that a U.S. official did in fact ask him to stand down on the misappropriation-of-funds case. “We are gravely concerned about this investigation for which we see no basis,” an embassy official named George Kent wrote to the prosecutor’s office.

    The State Department on Wednesday issued a statement declaring that it no longer financially supports Lutsenko’s office in its anti-corruption mission and considers his allegation about the do-not-prosecute list “an outright fabrication.”

    https://thehill.com/opinion/campaign/435029-as-russia-collusion-fades-ukrainian-plot-to-help-clinton-emerges

    • Replies: @Mikhail
    @for-the-record

    Related:

    https://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2019/03/23/in-ukraine-presidential-vote-joker-wild.html

    Excerpt -


    While Washington applauds Poroshenko’s firm anti-Russian line, his performance on corruption lags in the eyes of US Ambassador to Ukraine, Marie Yovanovitch, who says efforts have “not yet resulted in the anti-corruption or rule of law reforms that Ukrainians expect or deserve.” As reported by Voice of America,Yovanovitch specifically wants Poroshenko to fire his special anti-corruption prosecutor Nazar Kholodnytsky. “Nobody who has been recorded coaching suspects on how to avoid corruption charges can be trusted to prosecute those very same cases," said Yovanovitch, referring to Kholodnytsky. “Those responsible for corruption should be investigated, prosecuted, and if guilty, go to jail.”

    Yovanovitch may face her own pot/kettle problem when it comes to turning a blind eye to corruption. Ukrainian Prosecutor General Yuriy Lutsenko told Hill.TV's John Solomon that in their very first meeting Yovanovitch gave him a “do not prosecute” list. “My response of that is it is inadmissible,” says Lutsenko – who is also is also investigating a claim from a member of the Verkhovna Rada that the director of the National Anti-Corruption Bureau of Ukraine (NABU), Artem Sytnyk, attempted to assist the 2016 US presidential election of Hillary Clinton. “Nobody in this country, neither our president nor our parliament nor our ambassador, will stop me from prosecuting whether there is a crime,” continued Lutsenko to Solomon. Yovanovitch has also reportedly badmouthed US President Donald Trump to Ukrainian officials, telling them to ignore him because he’s going to be impeached. Predictably, Secretary Mike Pompeo’s State Department has rushed to the defense – not of Trump, but of Yovanovitch, who has also ruffled conservative moral sensibilities in Ukraine with her showy support for LGBT issues.
     
  187. AP says:
    @DFH
    @AP


    I do not justify what they did, but it wasn’t any worse than Anglo-American deliberate targeting and bombing of German or Japanese civilians.
     
    That's ridiculous. The aim of dropping the atomic bombs was to force the Japanese to surrender, avoiding hundreds of thousands of American soldiers dying in an invasion (or possibly even more Japanese civilians in a blockade), in a war started by Japanese aggression.
    Torturing and murdering tens of thousands of civilians who posed no military threat as part of a campaign to ethnically cleanse people who had been living there for hundreds of years is not the same.
    The reasons are not at all the same.

    Honestly, when the war in Ukraine started I was quite pro-Ukrainian but now I have grown to understand completely why people hate you (Ukrainian nationalists).

    Replies: @utu, @AP

    That’s ridiculous. The aim of dropping the atomic bombs was to force the Japanese to surrender, avoiding hundreds of thousands of American soldiers dying in an invasion (or possibly even more Japanese civilians in a blockade)

    Sure. UPA wasn’t even trying to invade Poland.

    in a war started by Japanese aggression.

    The Polish state had been occupying Ukrainian lands. It invaded and conquered them in 1918-1919. So that was how the aggression started.

    Torturing and murdering tens of thousands of civilians who posed no military threat

    Incinerating them as was done by Angl0-American bombers to German and Japanese civilians was better?

    The reasons are not at all the same.

    Anglo-Americans burned alive 100,000s of civilians hundreds or thousands of miles from their own home territory, to make their invasion of those lands easier. Ukrainian peasants organized by UPA massacred 60,000-100,000 civilians in an attmept to prevent their home territory from being occupied by a foreign state.

    now I have grown to understand completely why people hate you (Ukrainian nationalists)

    Not a Ukrianian nationalist, nor were any of my ancestors OUN or UPA members.

    Let me guess: as an Englishmen you have come to see these Ukrainians as being like the Irish.

    • Replies: @szopen
    @AP


    It invaded and conquered them in 1918-1919.
     
    Come on. You are claiming that Poles who lived here for hundreds of years INVADED their own homes?

    Also, I'm really dissapointed you are trying to justify thugs who murdered thousands of innocent civilians (including members of my more distant family) - thugs which sometimes sent letters assuring civilians that they are safe and that they do not need to escape, only to attack them later. Somehow, Taras Borowec who founded first UPA had not thought ethnic cleansing was necessary, despite he also wanted to conquer this territories for Ukraine.

    Replies: @utu, @AP

  188. AP says:
    @utu
    @AP

    "I do not justify what they did" - Yes, you do.

    Replies: @AP

    How so? Since UPA and OUN did not have access to internal Polish documents calling for the ethnic cleansing of those lands (and who knows if this wuld even have been attempted – the local Poles wanted to to do it but the government in exile rejected it), they murdered the Polish civilians in order to prevent the return of Polish rule. Although Polish rule was very unpleasant, it was not nearly sufficiently unpleasant to warrant the mass murder of massive numbers of civilians. There was thus no legitimate justification for this crime.

    My main point was not to justify what UPA did but to point out that their “justification” was no worse than that of the Anglo-Americans who were murdering German and Japanese civilians during that time. Sorry if I was not clear.

  189. @Matra
    @AP

    This is a very Diaspora Nationalist post.

    Replies: @AP

    No, for diaspora the UPA were heroes and the crimes didn’t happen.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @AP

    In Ukraine, from official levels, most from Yushchenko, they have been rehabilitating all these people, and for recent generation who were in school, it seems they are unaware of any problems in this history of their glorious heroes.

    Poland's education system probably teaches - more accurately - the opposite.

    So now the stupidly inevitable results

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6SDMJt99GsM

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9N1VQpslKvU

  190. AP says:
    @Denis
    @AP


    UPA took the initiative and ethnically cleansed them first, while they had the chance.
     
    There are a great many instances of ethnic cleansing, and even genocide, that can be "justified" using the same reasoning.

    Replies: @AP

    Sure. I condemn what UPA did and hope I did not give the opposite impression. I’ll repeat what I wrote to utu:

    Since UPA and OUN did not have access to internal Polish documents calling for the ethnic cleansing of those lands (and who knows if this would even have been attempted – the local Poles wanted to to do it but the government in exile rejected it), they murdered the Polish civilians in order to prevent the return of Polish rule. Although Polish rule was very unpleasant, it was not nearly sufficiently unpleasant to warrant the mass murder of massive numbers of civilians. There was thus no legitimate justification for this crime.

    My main point was not to justify what UPA did but to point out that their “justification” was no worse than that of the Anglo-Americans who were murdering German and Japanese civilians during that time. Sorry if I was not clear.

    • Replies: @Denis
    @AP


    My main point was not to justify what UPA did but to point out that their “justification” was no worse than that of the Anglo-Americans who were murdering German and Japanese civilians during that time. Sorry if I was not clear.
     
    Finally, we agree on something! The treatment of the Germans by the allies during and after the second world war was atrocious. Not so sure about the Japanese, though, as they got off relatively light compared to the Germans, despite the terror bombings and the nuclear attacks.

    Replies: @German_reader

  191. AP says:
    @utu
    @DFH


    Honestly, when the war in Ukraine started I was quite pro-Ukrainian but now I have grown to understand completely why people hate you (Ukrainian nationalists).
     
    Poland is taking Ukrainian gastarbeiters and immigrants by millions w/o any gestures of contrition and atonements from Ukrainians for the Volhynia genocide. It is really hard to understand it.

    Replies: @WHAT, @JL, @AP

    Many Poles realize what their governemnt did in Ukraine in the 1920s and 1930s was also shameful (f not nearly as bad as what UPA did) and thus prefer not to bring up the mid 20th century mess at all.

    There is a Ukrianian (diaspora) national hall not far from where I live where they sometimes host parties where both Ukrainian and Polish off the boaters come. So one can see Poles drinking in a hall with a portrait of Bandera hanging on the wall.

    • Agree: Mr. Hack
    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @AP

    Ironically, I witnessed similar experiences in AZ where large prominent portraits of Bandera and Shukhevych adorned the local Ukrainian hallway. Finally, after some 30 years the portraits were taken down, as the local Polish community would often rent the hall for their own parties. Now, they have their own hall I am told, but the portraits of the two nationalists remain taken down. The ones of Shevchenko and Franko still remain on the walls. Nobody seems to care much, either way. :-)

  192. Anonymous[151] • Disclaimer says:
    @reiner Tor
    @Anonymous


    Israelis (...) pay lip service to American neoliberalism and utopianism
     
    If it were only lip service, they wouldn’t be so active in denouncing parties like the AfD.

    has Marine Le Pen really renounced her father?
     
    Yes, she has even kicked him out of the party. What else do Israelis want?

    And it’s not like Le Pen was Hitler. He said some bad things about Jews.

    Replies: @Anonymous

    How energetic has Israel really been in denouncing AfD? Google isn’t showing me a ton. I see that some wings of Afd are pushing to outlaw male circumcision and kosher slaughterhouses. Even if one supports these positions (and yes I understand that they are primarily directed at Muslims) it’s not hard to see why many Jews would take a dim view of a party that seriously entertained them. Regardless I don’t think Israel is responsible in any significant way for the failures of the AfD.

    Comments like Le Pen’s are just that, comments, not binding decrees with the force of law, but as with e.g. the recent Israeli comments about Poland they are insensitive and ill advised (to say the least).

  193. @JL
    @Dmitry


    Israel has its only ski resort there.
     
    Starting this year, there is now a direct flight between Tel Aviv and Sochi. The ski resorts there have been inundated with Israelis, to the extent that Hebrew will be, by far, the language you are most likely to hear after Russian. Sochi is, apparently, a superior substitute to the Alps; closer, cheaper, and Israelis don't need a visa to visit Russia.

    Replies: @Anonymous, @Dmitry

    I think there was direct flight between Sochi and Tel Aviv since 2014?

    But the way Israel operates visa-free with Russia (Ukraine, Georgia, Belarus, etc), is perhaps more bad than good.

    They have an open visa regime. But then instead they operate “immigration control” in the airport with Russia/Ukraine/Belarus people, and they particularly deport Ukrainians.

    In response, Ukraine started an airport war , and is doing the same to Israelis.
    https://zn.ua/international/unizhennye-i-vozmuschennye-311939_.html

  194. @reiner Tor
    @Dmitry


    It’s an autistic theory of mind.
     
    Projection. See:

    But people cannot actually believe or not believe in truth of something, on basis of “racial interest and longterm conspiracies”. They believe it because they believe it is the true description of reality.
     
    In reality, people usually find it easier to believe what is good for them or which is compatible with their other beliefs. In my experience Jews (and, to be honest, other highly committed nationalists - I have noticed similar things with Hungarian nationalists) often cannot imagine that what is good for them can be neutral or even negative for any universalistic metric.

    So Jews will not even notice that there is a difference between a Jew who explicitly argues that multiculturalism is good because it’s good for the Jews and a gentile white who argues that it’s good because it’s morally good. Interestingly, even you didn’t notice it. Contrary to your assertion, those Jews are rarely cynical, because of course they also use universalistic moral arguments. They don’t even notice that the two are not the same, or that at least in theory there could be a contradiction.

    Replies: @Dmitry

    Exactly – my point is your writings appeared autistic. The text appeared to be written by someone who has no understanding of the people he is assigning motives to (or people in general).

    Therefore, the recent projections you made where you were calling people like myself, who didn’t share your political opinions, “autistic normies”. It is an interesting contradiction of terms, as “normies” is the term used by people with autistic spectrum disorders to refer to non-autistic people.

    I think part of this is just reading too much “evolutionary psychology” books. But part of it is obviously a theory of mind.

    Here you believe view that peoples’ ideologies are based in racial self-interest, and that this racial interest can result in complicated longterm conspiracies.

    But then you are confused that Bolshevik Jews still supporting the USSR in the 1950s, when supporting USSR was not “aligned with Jewish racial interests”.

    You then mention confusion that their ideologies go against racial self-interest, and attribute this to their “stupidity” (you can re-read your post) or lack of conspiracy skills.

    I needn’t add the obvious fact, that Bolshevik Jews were still supporting the USSR in the 1950s, because and to the extent they were still Bolsheviks.

    Marx, himself wanted Jews to dissolve as a separate nationality, and believed the end of capitalism will make “Jews impossible”.
    https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1844/jewish-question/index.htm

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @Dmitry


    you were calling people like myself, who didn’t share your political opinions, “autistic normies”
     
    Why the plural? I only called you an autistic normie, did I call anyone else that?

    “normies” is the term used by people with autistic spectrum disorders to refer to non-autistic people.
     
    What?

    Regarding the rest.

    Obviously people tend to believe in things which are good for them. Minorities will believe that granting minority rights is morally superior to encouraging assimilation.

    People will explicitly use such utilitarian arguments, even if they have no relevance to the question at hand. For example religious people will often cite the numerous studies about religious people being happier, with more children, lower suicide rates, etc. Hungarian leftists regularly use arguments that multiculturalism would be good for the Hungarian minorities, who would benefit from minority rights etc.

    That’s not “cynicism.” People are not very self-aware, and they will sincerely believe in their ideologies. So poor people will sincerely believe in redistribution, and as they get richer, they will slowly tend to a belief in the magical powers of low taxes and free markets. There will certainly be a lag: people will keep their beliefs longer than they serve them. But they tend to beliefs which serve them. (More idealistic people less so. It’s a tendency, a stochastic rule.)

    Jews, of course, explicitly use the argument that multiculturalism is good for Jews. They will use it when arguing with non-Jews, which shows that they are not totally aware of the fact that it’s not really an argument, and for a gentile, it’s not even a fallacious pseudo-argument.

    Marx’s comments notwithstanding, Jews (a very large proportion of them) perceived Marxism and then Bolshevism to be good for Jews as an ethnic group. So they tended to move there. And objectively speaking, in the decade after 1917, Bolshevism was indeed beneficial to Soviet Jews. However, things changed. Jews in general still considered Bolshevism to be good for them well into the 1950s, by which time it was no longer the case.

    So, perception lagged reality. Ideologies have staying power. Who would have thought?

    Anyway, Jews tend to move to ideologies which they perceive to be good for them. They perceive ideologies to be good for them if they were objectively good for them in the recent past. There is some delay in perception, and ideologies have some staying power for a long time even beyond that, especially among the more committed adherents.

    I’m not sure it’s productive to continue this.

    Replies: @Hyperborean, @Dmitry

  195. @for-the-record
    New evidence, perhaps, that would finally confirm the charge of collusion in the 2016 US Presidential election:

    As Russia collusion fades, Ukrainian plot to help Clinton emerges

    Ukraine’s top prosecutor divulged in an interview aired Wednesday on Hill.TV that he has opened an investigation into whether his country’s law enforcement apparatus intentionally leaked financial records during the 2016 U.S. presidential campaign about then-Trump campaign chairman Paul Manafort in an effort to sway the election in favor of Hillary Clinton.

    The leak of the so-called black ledger files to U.S. media prompted Manafort’s resignation from the Trump campaign and gave rise to one of the key allegations in the Russia collusion probe that has dogged Trump for the last two and a half years.

    Ukraine Prosecutor General Yurii Lutsenko’s probe was prompted by a Ukrainian parliamentarian's release of a tape recording purporting to quote a top law enforcement official as saying his agency leaked the Manafort financial records to help Clinton's campaign.

    The parliamentarian also secured a court ruling that the leak amounted to “an illegal intrusion into the American election campaign,” Lutsenko told me. Lutsenko said the tape recording is a serious enough allegation to warrant opening a probe, and one of his concerns is that the Ukrainian law enforcement agency involved had frequent contact with the Obama administration’s U.S. Embassy in Kiev at the time . . .

    Lutsenko’s interview with Hill.TV raises another troubling dynamic: The U.S. Embassy and the chief Ukrainian prosecutor, who America entrusts with fighting corruption inside an allied country, currently have a dysfunctional relationship.

    In our interview, Lutsenko accused the Obama-era U.S. Embassy in 2016 of interfering in his ability to prosecute corruption cases, saying the U.S. ambassador gave him a list of defendants that he would not be allowed to pursue and then refused to cooperate in an early investigation into the alleged misappropriation of U.S. aid in Ukraine.

    Lutsenko provided me with a letter from the embassy, supporting part of his story by showing that a U.S. official did in fact ask him to stand down on the misappropriation-of-funds case. “We are gravely concerned about this investigation for which we see no basis,” an embassy official named George Kent wrote to the prosecutor’s office.

    The State Department on Wednesday issued a statement declaring that it no longer financially supports Lutsenko’s office in its anti-corruption mission and considers his allegation about the do-not-prosecute list “an outright fabrication.”

    https://thehill.com/opinion/campaign/435029-as-russia-collusion-fades-ukrainian-plot-to-help-clinton-emerges
     

    Replies: @Mikhail

    Related:

    https://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2019/03/23/in-ukraine-presidential-vote-joker-wild.html

    Excerpt –

    While Washington applauds Poroshenko’s firm anti-Russian line, his performance on corruption lags in the eyes of US Ambassador to Ukraine, Marie Yovanovitch, who says efforts have “not yet resulted in the anti-corruption or rule of law reforms that Ukrainians expect or deserve.” As reported by Voice of America,Yovanovitch specifically wants Poroshenko to fire his special anti-corruption prosecutor Nazar Kholodnytsky. “Nobody who has been recorded coaching suspects on how to avoid corruption charges can be trusted to prosecute those very same cases,” said Yovanovitch, referring to Kholodnytsky. “Those responsible for corruption should be investigated, prosecuted, and if guilty, go to jail.”

    Yovanovitch may face her own pot/kettle problem when it comes to turning a blind eye to corruption. Ukrainian Prosecutor General Yuriy Lutsenko told Hill.TV’s John Solomon that in their very first meeting Yovanovitch gave him a “do not prosecute” list. “My response of that is it is inadmissible,” says Lutsenko – who is also is also investigating a claim from a member of the Verkhovna Rada that the director of the National Anti-Corruption Bureau of Ukraine (NABU), Artem Sytnyk, attempted to assist the 2016 US presidential election of Hillary Clinton. “Nobody in this country, neither our president nor our parliament nor our ambassador, will stop me from prosecuting whether there is a crime,” continued Lutsenko to Solomon. Yovanovitch has also reportedly badmouthed US President Donald Trump to Ukrainian officials, telling them to ignore him because he’s going to be impeached. Predictably, Secretary Mike Pompeo’s State Department has rushed to the defense – not of Trump, but of Yovanovitch, who has also ruffled conservative moral sensibilities in Ukraine with her showy support for LGBT issues.

  196. @Hyperborean
    @Dmitry


    1. Pussy Riot – was a stupid repression. But it is not different than what Theresa May, or New Zealand, etc, are doing to politically incorrect people. If anything, Western European governments are all aligned with the Russian government in these topics.

     

    But there is a difference. Pussy Riot are good people politically speaking while the UK arrests hateful people, so from their perspective there is a fundamental difference.

    Also, Putin’s views on these topics are just aligning with typical opinion in the country, so there he is just being a representative politician in this area, not pushing any particular personal views.
     
    Which simply makes ordinary Russians complicit in Putin’s sins.

    countries like Cuba, Bolivia and Venezuela, which will be much more repressive.
     
    Cuba's government is rather liberal:

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/dec/19/cuba-removes-support-for-gay-marriage-in-new-constitution-after-protests

    >>>>

    You are correct in pointing out the blindspots and hypocrisy, but it is not as if they feel obliged to be consistent.

    It is much easier simply to hate renegade white countries like Russia, Poland, Hungary, Italy or whichever European country is next to go rogue.

    Replies: @Dmitry

    But there is a difference. Pussy Riot are good people politically speaking while the UK arrests hateful people, so from their perspective there is a fundamental difference.

    Of course they have their subjective views.

    But it’s still quite ridiculous and useful to look at. Pussy Riot were making some video in a church. And UK arrests people for vandalism in churches.

    Far-right graffiti church vandal jailed for 6 years

    https://www.premier.org.uk/News/UK/Far-right-graffiti-church-vandal-jailed-for-6-years

    Sure one is right politically, and one liberal politically. One has physical damage, while the other is only damage atmosphere.

    But the legal justifications in the courts of the two countries, will be very similar (church is some “holy” place, so it is as a worse than normal hooliganism).

    In the case of Pussy Riot, of course Putin opposed the punishment, or believed it was too much.

    Cuba’s government is rather liberal:

    But not when Fidel Castro, was there (and Castro is still “cool” with Western liberals – credit for Daily Beast that they at least challenge this contradiction).

    https://www.thedailybeast.com/fidel-castros-horrific-record-on-gay-rights

    It is much easier simply to hate renegade white countries like Russia, Poland, Hungary, Italy or whichever European country is next to go rogue.

    Orban claims to be in conflict with the Western liberal ideology (although this is partly just election campaigning, his actual policies are classical liberal).

    It is understandable for Western anti-racists or liberals to hate Orban.

    But Putin’s personal ideology is anti-racist and multinationalist. And then the “repressive laws”, are more or less the same as in many Western European countries. Lack of “free speech absolutism” is dividing America from Europe. But not Western Europe from Russia.

    There’s a lot lost in translation, when our “centrist” and “moderate” politician is hated by their “centrist” supporting journalists and citizens.

  197. @German_reader
    @Dmitry


    So Israel should definitely not try to create relationships
     
    That's not the point (I'd actually agree), the point is that Israeli representatives and spokesmen of Jewish organizations have gone out of their way to validate the view of AfD as an illegitimate party of Nazis that ought to be crushed.
    There was a bizarre incident last year when former Mossad agent Rafi Eitan (one of those who captured Eichmann) met with AfD members in Germany and had friendly words for them - he was strongly condemned by the Israeli ambassador for that and eventually retracted his statements. Admittedly that also shows that Jewish views on those issues aren't monolithic, and to some extent I can even understand Jewish wariness about right-wing movements in Europe (there have been a few cases of explicit antisemites in AfD, though those have been isolated and AfD also has a few Jewish members). But still, on the whole the behaviour of official Jewry is really tiresome.

    That’s one of the most important things for Israel’s survival – to improve its relations with Muslim countries.
     
    It's unfortunate that Israel has picked the very worst Islamic countries, Saudi-Arabia and other Gulf states, for that project, it definitely makes a mockery of all those "Israel is a bulwark against Islamism" claims (though the same is of course true on a much larger scale for the US, and also for the dubious ties of European countries to those regimes).

    Replies: @Anonymous, @LondonBob, @Dmitry

    Israel has picked the very worst Islamic countries, Saudi-Arabia and other Gulf states,

    Saudi Arabia was paying for suicide bombers in Israel until early 2000s (they transferred $5000 for each Palestinian suicide bomb against Israel).

    Obviously, it is a large improvement in Israel’s security, if Saudi Arabia moderates their view to it (Saudi Arabia was also supporting Chechens in the 1990s).

    Payment of Saudi Arabia for suicide bombings in Israel was ended by Bush pressure after 9/11 (but America was complicit for Saudi support of Chechen terrorists).

    In the case of relations between Saudi Arabia and Israel. It’s still politically impossible, for Saudi Arabia to be actually normal relations with Israel – as their education system will have created a population hostile to Israel.

    Saudi Arabia has friendly relations with America, Russia and UK, where they invest billions of dollars, buy weapons, or even their children to study. The relations with Israel are much more secret and they are more like the relations Israel has with Egypt or Jordan (where publicly they are very unfriendly, but privately friendly with the ruler).

  198. @AP
    @utu

    Many Poles realize what their governemnt did in Ukraine in the 1920s and 1930s was also shameful (f not nearly as bad as what UPA did) and thus prefer not to bring up the mid 20th century mess at all.

    There is a Ukrianian (diaspora) national hall not far from where I live where they sometimes host parties where both Ukrainian and Polish off the boaters come. So one can see Poles drinking in a hall with a portrait of Bandera hanging on the wall.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    Ironically, I witnessed similar experiences in AZ where large prominent portraits of Bandera and Shukhevych adorned the local Ukrainian hallway. Finally, after some 30 years the portraits were taken down, as the local Polish community would often rent the hall for their own parties. Now, they have their own hall I am told, but the portraits of the two nationalists remain taken down. The ones of Shevchenko and Franko still remain on the walls. Nobody seems to care much, either way. 🙂

  199. @Epigon
    @Thorfinnsson

    Regarding P-38 and P-47, you fell for a post-war propaganda effort.
    P-38 having counter-turning propellers meant it could outturn every single-engine fighter in the right turn.
    In addition, using differential throttle settings, P-38 flown by expert pilots (instructed by travelling advisers like Lindbergh) could outmaneuver even Japanese nimble fighters, the most maneuverable of the fighters employed in WW2 in “common knowledge”.
    No, the Americans knew what they were doing in Pacific - the British pilot was given crappy export P-38 without turbosuperchargers, and suffers from common British illness of Spitfiremania.

    And be certain that no fighter “maneuvered” at 0.75 Mach. This claim is very dubious by itself for P-47 - it was precisely P-47M which could threaten Me-262 via boom-and-zoom and shallow dive speed accumilation.

    Also, P-47 operating as a fighter-bomber was an atrocity. It was designed as a high-altitude, long-range interceptor and escort fighter maximizing energy fighting. The complex and expensive turbosupercharger it carried (engineering achievement and masterpiece) that enabled it to outperform supercharged competition was literally deadweight at low altitudes.

    Its fancy hydraulic control surfaces optimized for high-altitude, high-speed maneuvering was ill-suited for ground-level combat.

    The thing was very expensive (almost twice the price of Mustang), armoured, resistant to damage (air cooled radials vs. liquid cooled inlines) and heavily armed.

    Have a look yourself: https://chicagoboyz.net/archives/38801.html

    Comments are goldmine as well.

    https://chicagoboyz.net/archives/54434.html

    Also, Yugoslavia had post-WW2 late Spitfires, Yaks and P-47. P-47 winner in 9/10 situations. It could outclimb opposition post 6000 m altitude, accumulate energy due to higher ceiling and better high-altitude performance, build up speed via shallow dive and then prey upon hapless opposition in mock fights.

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson

    Those links are a great trip down memory lane and have a lot of excellent material, but I compared the P-51’s range to the Spitfire. In fact P-47s were more important than P-51s during the Big Week that broke the Luftwaffe.

    The P-38 having counter-rotating propellers meant that a skilled, properly trained pilot could use differential thrust to escape a single-engine fighter. Useful capability which the Germans sure could’ve used on their twin-engine fighters. Not the same thing as being a highly maneuverable aircraft, hence why SWPA P-38 pilots in the 5th Air Force mainly exploited their tremendous advantage in speed and diving to use boom and zoom tactics.

    Also, while not a knock on the P-38 itself, poor pilot training meant that differential thrust tactics were rarely used in the ETO.

    http://www.ausairpower.net/P-38-Analysis.html

    Eric Brown was the world’s best test pilot of that period and not prone to bias. He liked the Spitfire, but he was fair and considered the P-51 to be its equal. And liking Spitfires was not just a British position. Some of the RAF Eagle pilots that converted to the P-47 from the Spitfire initially hated the aircraft until they learned to exploit its virtues. Adolf Galland also famously told Goering during the Battle of Britain that he would like a squadron of Spitfires.

    The Mach numbers in question related to maneuvering limits in a dive (obviously WW2-era fighters couldn’t fly that fast in level flight) and were caused by compressibility in the transonic range. Since this relates to wing design and not the engines, it doesn’t matter what kind of P-38 Brown was flying.

    Regarding the engines, that was another problem with the P-38 in the ETO. The engines were known in the ETO as the “Allison time bomb”. Bill Knudsen vetoed the effort to equip the P-38 with Merlins, and Allison for various reasons refused to improve the engine sufficiently.

    The Spitfire also had a problem with compressibility (don’t recall the limit) which is why the British designed the replacement Supermarine Spiteful.

    The good news for the P-47 is that it didn’t need to maneuver in a dive because it could dive faster than its opponents thanks to its great weight and R2800 engine.

    The P-47 had a number of features intended for high altitude operation, but these didn’t harm it at low altitude operation other than that they cost money. And actually hydraulically boosted flaps at low altitude might save your life. It’s not like it had a specialized high altitude wing (e.g. as on the Ta-152).

    You do bring up another reason for P-51 superiority however: it was cheaper and easier to maintain. Admittedly not relevant to the pilot in the cockpit, but certainly relevant to the USAAF.

    I don’t believe that a P-47 could outclimb a late mark Spitfire. Griffon-engined Spitfires, by simple physics, would obviously outclimb a P-47. I suppose past a certain altitude the P-47’s turbocharger could’ve provided an edge over the Spitfire’s two-speed supercharger. The Yak-3 obviously would’ve been shredded outside of a low altitude dogfight owing to its inferior engine.

    • Replies: @Epigon
    @Thorfinnsson

    Counterturning propellers negated gyroscopic forces, precession and P-factor - single-engine fighters had problem turning to one side. P-38 didn’t. The differential throttling was an ADDITIONAL technique P-38 experts could utilise.

    Those Mach numbers you quoted are patently false.
    P-47 was the fastest diving piston engine fighter of WW2, and P-47J and P-47M were fastest piston engine aircraft of WW2.
    As I have already told you, P-47 was better suited for fighting Me-262 than P-51 was.

    Regarding Allisons, V-1710 could be worked to 2500+ HP from 28 litres working volume more reliably than DB605’s 1500 from 35 litres.

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson

  200. @AP
    @Matra

    No, for diaspora the UPA were heroes and the crimes didn't happen.

    Replies: @Dmitry

    In Ukraine, from official levels, most from Yushchenko, they have been rehabilitating all these people, and for recent generation who were in school, it seems they are unaware of any problems in this history of their glorious heroes.

    Poland’s education system probably teaches – more accurately – the opposite.

    So now the stupidly inevitable results

  201. @Dmitry
    @German_reader

    Degrees in politics and communication, may not be intellectually difficult to attain - but she at least completed the course, unlike Sebastian Kurz.

    Both her Sebastian Kurz, have never had a job or profession though. But she has a university qualification, which can be a test of having normal IQ and literacy. She has something on her CV under "Education".

    Her ascension to become the most powerful person in her country at 37 years old, is shocking. And even Sebastian Kurz becoming leader of Austria at 32 years is even more shocking.


    our societies that our “elites” consist of useless parasites who would be nothing without their party machines and their patronage networks.
     
    But neither her nor Kurz, are from any elites, which is how it becomes even more difficult to understand.

    They don't study in prestigious schools, or have any important family. They never had jobs in their life. They have no academic or intellectual ability. They don't have unusual personalities, or charisma, or original policies. And they reach the country's highest position while they are 30s. (Kurz second highest position, while he was 20s). Lol wtf.


    Mormon background, something needs to be done to check the spread of that cult.

     

    Obviously, Mormon beliefs are idiotic even by religious standards. But their external behaviour can be desirable. Salt Lake City, for example, is described as one of the best cities to live in America.

    Replies: @Hyperborean, @Thorfinnsson

    Politics is a job. By that standard Kurz is qualified–he has shown a consistent ability to win elections and has worked in politics for his whole adult life.

    People often wring their hands about “professional politicians” (see German_reader), but professional politicians are not new (Bismarck was a professional politician).

    There is often the expressed desire that political leaders should have other qualifications and job experience. Well, the USA elected Donald Trump. He has actually shown a better ability to deal with the media than traditional politicians, but he has not been good at building effective political coalitions and enacting his agenda. Perhaps the lack of political experience is a hindrance.

    Another thing to remember is that Austria and New Zealand are small countries. Austria is smaller than Moscow and NZ is the size of St. Petersburg. So think of Kurz as the Mayor of Moscow and that kiwi slut as the Mayor of St. Petersburg. Still impressive at a young age (especially Kurz!), but not as impressive as the President of the Russian Federation.

    German_reader, like many Germans, has some sort of problem with Mormonism. Mormonism believes in odd things but Mormons themselves are highly functional. The fact that slut left her religion because she worships homo-sexuals is actually far more alarming.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @Thorfinnsson


    political leaders should have other qualifications and job experience.
     
    Skills learning in the jobs and profession, can be extremely definitive of, and useful for, political leader.

    For Putin - counterintelligence. For Reagan - Hollywood acting. For Obama -community organizing. In the case of Merkel - "quantum chemistry",

    Merkel's work in quantum chemistry, perhaps unfortunately, abstracted her mind completely from the normal world.


    German_reader, like many Germans, has some sort of problem with Mormonism

     

    And their compatriot founded Brigham Young University - perhaps another reason for collective self-punishment
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_G._Maeser

    But I think Mormons, are mainly only being suppressed or arrested in Russia (Jehovah Witnesses are suppressed in many other countries though, not just Russia).

    And in Russia, there is actually now religious toleration. I even see Hare Krishna people quite a lot in public in the city where my parents live, and no-one arrests them, even though they are quite noisy.

    So why are missionaries of Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses, often arrested? I suspect the authorities have seen some evidence of a connection to the CIA or State Department, at least in relation to their missionary activity in Russia.

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson, @songbird

    , @songbird
    @Thorfinnsson

    I view New Hampshire, where state representatives are not given a salary, as being more functional and less corrupt than Massachusetts, where they are given a salary and pension. Of course, there are other factors, like demographics, and many of the most corrupt MA pols are also lawyers.

    Probably, the best solution would be to end universal sufferage, though I have heard some speak favorably of having a political draft.

    , @German_reader
    @Thorfinnsson


    but professional politicians are not new (Bismarck was a professional politician).
     
    The problem isn't with people devoting their life to politics, but with parties making the state their prey through state funding for their party foundations and organizations etc. This creates a parasitic caste keen on defending its privileges at all costs, and also completely alienated from the life experiences of ordinary citizens, since they've never done anything but politics. Admittedly some of the alternatives (financing parties through donations of wealthy individuals) are also problematic.
    Bismarck could have lived well as an estate-owner without ever entering politics, he also had experience in the diplomatic service. The mediocrities dominating party politics today are rather different imo.

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson

  202. @Mikhail
    @Thorfinnsson

    I'd like to see the specifics behind that rating as well, which varies by different categories for best oil:

    - synthetic
    - conventional
    - 0-20
    - blend
    - high mileage (75, 000 and over) synthetic

    A more detailed venue:

    https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/

    On the subject of engine oil for cars, I'm of the view that as long as you put in the recommended weight and change within a reasoned time, there will be no problems, whatever you use: Amazon, Walmart, Mobil, Royal Purple..... This view excludes driving a car with regular temperatures at single digits and less.

    If the manual calls for full synthetic, then by all means use it.

    More important is the quality of the oil filter. Offhand, the Mobil extended life and Fram full synthetic filters seem like the best options. Royal Purple oil filters are considered as good if not better. Its price is noticeably higher when compared to the aforementioned other two which sell at Walmart for around $10.00.

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson

    I think your view is correct, but given that engine oil is not expensive it gives me peace of mind to purchase the best.

    • Replies: @Mikhail
    @Thorfinnsson

    Another important aspect isn't overfilling, while frequently checking the fluid level. For several reasons, many modern engines consume oil. Overfilling is bad, as is not having enough.

  203. @Thorfinnsson
    @Dmitry

    Politics is a job. By that standard Kurz is qualified--he has shown a consistent ability to win elections and has worked in politics for his whole adult life.

    People often wring their hands about "professional politicians" (see German_reader), but professional politicians are not new (Bismarck was a professional politician).

    There is often the expressed desire that political leaders should have other qualifications and job experience. Well, the USA elected Donald Trump. He has actually shown a better ability to deal with the media than traditional politicians, but he has not been good at building effective political coalitions and enacting his agenda. Perhaps the lack of political experience is a hindrance.

    Another thing to remember is that Austria and New Zealand are small countries. Austria is smaller than Moscow and NZ is the size of St. Petersburg. So think of Kurz as the Mayor of Moscow and that kiwi slut as the Mayor of St. Petersburg. Still impressive at a young age (especially Kurz!), but not as impressive as the President of the Russian Federation.

    German_reader, like many Germans, has some sort of problem with Mormonism. Mormonism believes in odd things but Mormons themselves are highly functional. The fact that slut left her religion because she worships homo-sexuals is actually far more alarming.

    Replies: @Dmitry, @songbird, @German_reader

    political leaders should have other qualifications and job experience.

    Skills learning in the jobs and profession, can be extremely definitive of, and useful for, political leader.

    For Putin – counterintelligence. For Reagan – Hollywood acting. For Obama -community organizing. In the case of Merkel – “quantum chemistry”,

    Merkel’s work in quantum chemistry, perhaps unfortunately, abstracted her mind completely from the normal world.

    German_reader, like many Germans, has some sort of problem with Mormonism

    And their compatriot founded Brigham Young University – perhaps another reason for collective self-punishment
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_G._Maeser

    But I think Mormons, are mainly only being suppressed or arrested in Russia (Jehovah Witnesses are suppressed in many other countries though, not just Russia).

    And in Russia, there is actually now religious toleration. I even see Hare Krishna people quite a lot in public in the city where my parents live, and no-one arrests them, even though they are quite noisy.

    So why are missionaries of Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses, often arrested? I suspect the authorities have seen some evidence of a connection to the CIA or State Department, at least in relation to their missionary activity in Russia.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    @Dmitry



    Skills learning in the jobs and profession, can be extremely definitive of, and useful for, political leader.
     
    As you pointed out in your comments about the Irkut MC-21 program, there is always the opportunity cost.

    And some skills turn out not to be terribly relevant to politics anyway.

    That said I am a fan of developing many skills. Scott Adams calls this the "talent stack". It's generally more useful than becoming a specialist, unless you are the world's best specialist in your specialty.

    But these skills can be developed in many ways other than so-called "education" or one's nominal job. While Donald Trump was a real estate developer, for whatever reason he chose to become a skilled celebrity and media personality. This then led to a lucrative second career and followed by success in politics.

    George W Bush, while he grew up in a political family, apparently developed no skills of any kind as a young man--other than excellent social skills. Then in his middle age he became a successful politician, no doubt aided by his lifelong cultivation of social skills.

    People are hoping for some kind of a background that produces philosopher kings, but I don't believe there is such a background.


    For Putin – counterintelligence. For Reagan – Hollywood acting. For Obama -community organizing. In the case of Merkel – “quantum chemistry”,

    Merkel’s work in quantum chemistry, perhaps unfortunately, abstracted her mind completely from the normal world.
     
    Reagan and Obama here were simply developing political skills. Acting is obviously useful for a politician, and community organizing is politics.

    Counterintelligence is not politics but is obviously useful in politics, and it's useful for a national leader. Fortunate for Russia.

    As for Merkel's background, completely useless for politics or leadership. Perhaps has some relevance in setting policy for science funding.

    Sweden's Prime Minister was a welder. That's a "real job". He's also a bad Prime Minister and a laughing stock.

    Replies: @Dmitry

    , @songbird
    @Dmitry

    Acting allowed Reagan to get his gig as host of "General Electric Theater", which became a long-running TV and radio show. As part of it, he toured 135 GE plants and made speeches in front of possibly 250,000 people or more. I think this was probably more important than his earlier movie career, but I suppose it is hard to separate them.

  204. @German_reader
    @songbird


    It must have something to do with “Wolf Hall”
     
    That show is about Thomas Cromwell, not Oliver.

    Replies: @for-the-record, @LondonBob, @songbird

    I once heard it used as segway.

    I don’t know if Oliver Cromwell was really very different from some men of his day or men who had previously invaded Ireland, like Edward the Bruce or Strongbow. Massacres were probably pretty common, like the Siege of Smerwick, during the Second Desmond Rebellion. Part of my family had a farm on top of a big medieval burial ground – seems to have been a village obliterated by Edward the Bruce and never rebuilt, but history is patchy. What is known is only that he passed by that way.

    Still, I find the revisionism strange because it is not really about Cromwell but specifically about the Cromwellian conquest of Ireland. One contemporary estimate was that 40% of the population of Ireland was killed from war and induced famine. Whatever the true number, (some say only 20%), I can’t help but think that there is some strange political motivation. Either a globalist attack on Irish identity, or else they appreciate his anticlerical activities.

    Where I first heard it was actually on American public radio. Something I really abhor, but someone else was listening to it. On any given day, to hear it you would think it was communists, so it is easy to suspect some political dimension.

  205. @Dmitry
    @Thorfinnsson


    political leaders should have other qualifications and job experience.
     
    Skills learning in the jobs and profession, can be extremely definitive of, and useful for, political leader.

    For Putin - counterintelligence. For Reagan - Hollywood acting. For Obama -community organizing. In the case of Merkel - "quantum chemistry",

    Merkel's work in quantum chemistry, perhaps unfortunately, abstracted her mind completely from the normal world.


    German_reader, like many Germans, has some sort of problem with Mormonism

     

    And their compatriot founded Brigham Young University - perhaps another reason for collective self-punishment
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_G._Maeser

    But I think Mormons, are mainly only being suppressed or arrested in Russia (Jehovah Witnesses are suppressed in many other countries though, not just Russia).

    And in Russia, there is actually now religious toleration. I even see Hare Krishna people quite a lot in public in the city where my parents live, and no-one arrests them, even though they are quite noisy.

    So why are missionaries of Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses, often arrested? I suspect the authorities have seen some evidence of a connection to the CIA or State Department, at least in relation to their missionary activity in Russia.

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson, @songbird

    Skills learning in the jobs and profession, can be extremely definitive of, and useful for, political leader.

    As you pointed out in your comments about the Irkut MC-21 program, there is always the opportunity cost.

    And some skills turn out not to be terribly relevant to politics anyway.

    That said I am a fan of developing many skills. Scott Adams calls this the “talent stack”. It’s generally more useful than becoming a specialist, unless you are the world’s best specialist in your specialty.

    But these skills can be developed in many ways other than so-called “education” or one’s nominal job. While Donald Trump was a real estate developer, for whatever reason he chose to become a skilled celebrity and media personality. This then led to a lucrative second career and followed by success in politics.

    George W Bush, while he grew up in a political family, apparently developed no skills of any kind as a young man–other than excellent social skills. Then in his middle age he became a successful politician, no doubt aided by his lifelong cultivation of social skills.

    People are hoping for some kind of a background that produces philosopher kings, but I don’t believe there is such a background.

    For Putin – counterintelligence. For Reagan – Hollywood acting. For Obama -community organizing. In the case of Merkel – “quantum chemistry”,

    Merkel’s work in quantum chemistry, perhaps unfortunately, abstracted her mind completely from the normal world.

    Reagan and Obama here were simply developing political skills. Acting is obviously useful for a politician, and community organizing is politics.

    Counterintelligence is not politics but is obviously useful in politics, and it’s useful for a national leader. Fortunate for Russia.

    As for Merkel’s background, completely useless for politics or leadership. Perhaps has some relevance in setting policy for science funding.

    Sweden’s Prime Minister was a welder. That’s a “real job”. He’s also a bad Prime Minister and a laughing stock.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @Thorfinnsson


    People are hoping for some kind of a background that produces philosopher kings, but I don’t believe there is such a background.

     

    Well it's good you talk about Plato, because this is who I was thinking about.

    developing political skills.
     
    Democratic "political skills", however, - does not imply "good for country skills".

    This is implied in the discussion of Plato - Republic, Book VI


    Sophists and whom they deem to be their adversaries, do, in fact, teach nothing but the opinion of the many, that is to say, the opinions of their assemblies; and this is their wisdom.

    I might compare them to a man who should study the tempers and desires of a mighty strong beast who is fed by him-he would learn how to approach and handle him, also at what times and from what causes he is dangerous or the reverse, and what is the meaning of his several cries, and by what sounds, when another utters them, he is soothed or infuriated; and you may suppose further, that when, by continually attending upon him, he has become perfect in all this, he calls his knowledge wisdom, and makes of it a system or art, which he proceeds to teach, although he has no real notion of what he means by the principles or passions of which he is speaking, but calls this honourable and that dishonourable, or good or evil, or just or unjust, all in accordance with the tastes and tempers of the great brute.

    Good he pronounces to be that in which the beast delights and evil to be that which he dislikes; and he can give no other account of them except that the just and noble are the necessary, having never himself seen, and having no power of explaining to others the nature of either, or the difference between them, which is immense.

    http://classics.mit.edu/Plato/republic.7.vi.html

     

    Skillful politician, like people trained by sophists, becomes very good at understanding what the beast (masses) wants, and how to satisfy its next appetite, or appease it with nice words.

    But desires of a mob, has often little relation to what is actually true or false.

    With the professional politician, you have no more experience than an animal trainer's, as their whole profession was related to pleasing the beast.

    Why we want politician to have a real profession before, is that they might have some understanding of actual true and false, at least within their narrow sphere.

    Romney, for example, has practical experience in business, which would be relevant for economy. Trump has practical experience in "deals" - or this is how he marketed himself.

    And - more uselessly - Merkel, has experience in "quantum chemistry", which means her brain was rewired for some years to have zero connection to everyday reality.


    Acting is obviously useful for a politician, and community organizing is politics.

     

    A lot of President's job is a symbolic one, and this is where Reagan was excellently trained. You can see he looks like a real gentleman (or Hollywood actor's interpretation of a gentleman).
  206. @Thorfinnsson
    @Dmitry

    Politics is a job. By that standard Kurz is qualified--he has shown a consistent ability to win elections and has worked in politics for his whole adult life.

    People often wring their hands about "professional politicians" (see German_reader), but professional politicians are not new (Bismarck was a professional politician).

    There is often the expressed desire that political leaders should have other qualifications and job experience. Well, the USA elected Donald Trump. He has actually shown a better ability to deal with the media than traditional politicians, but he has not been good at building effective political coalitions and enacting his agenda. Perhaps the lack of political experience is a hindrance.

    Another thing to remember is that Austria and New Zealand are small countries. Austria is smaller than Moscow and NZ is the size of St. Petersburg. So think of Kurz as the Mayor of Moscow and that kiwi slut as the Mayor of St. Petersburg. Still impressive at a young age (especially Kurz!), but not as impressive as the President of the Russian Federation.

    German_reader, like many Germans, has some sort of problem with Mormonism. Mormonism believes in odd things but Mormons themselves are highly functional. The fact that slut left her religion because she worships homo-sexuals is actually far more alarming.

    Replies: @Dmitry, @songbird, @German_reader

    I view New Hampshire, where state representatives are not given a salary, as being more functional and less corrupt than Massachusetts, where they are given a salary and pension. Of course, there are other factors, like demographics, and many of the most corrupt MA pols are also lawyers.

    Probably, the best solution would be to end universal sufferage, though I have heard some speak favorably of having a political draft.

  207. @AP
    @DFH


    That’s ridiculous. The aim of dropping the atomic bombs was to force the Japanese to surrender, avoiding hundreds of thousands of American soldiers dying in an invasion (or possibly even more Japanese civilians in a blockade)
     
    Sure. UPA wasn't even trying to invade Poland.

    in a war started by Japanese aggression.
     
    The Polish state had been occupying Ukrainian lands. It invaded and conquered them in 1918-1919. So that was how the aggression started.

    Torturing and murdering tens of thousands of civilians who posed no military threat
     
    Incinerating them as was done by Angl0-American bombers to German and Japanese civilians was better?

    The reasons are not at all the same.
     
    Anglo-Americans burned alive 100,000s of civilians hundreds or thousands of miles from their own home territory, to make their invasion of those lands easier. Ukrainian peasants organized by UPA massacred 60,000-100,000 civilians in an attmept to prevent their home territory from being occupied by a foreign state.

    now I have grown to understand completely why people hate you (Ukrainian nationalists)
     
    Not a Ukrianian nationalist, nor were any of my ancestors OUN or UPA members.

    Let me guess: as an Englishmen you have come to see these Ukrainians as being like the Irish.

    Replies: @szopen

    It invaded and conquered them in 1918-1919.

    Come on. You are claiming that Poles who lived here for hundreds of years INVADED their own homes?

    Also, I’m really dissapointed you are trying to justify thugs who murdered thousands of innocent civilians (including members of my more distant family) – thugs which sometimes sent letters assuring civilians that they are safe and that they do not need to escape, only to attack them later. Somehow, Taras Borowec who founded first UPA had not thought ethnic cleansing was necessary, despite he also wanted to conquer this territories for Ukraine.

    • Agree: utu, DFH
    • Replies: @utu
    @szopen

    The question is why Poland is letting millions of Ukrainians in? Why would Poles want to have somebody like AP as their neighbor? Volhynia genocide was the most disgusting crime of the WWII the way it was conducted. It was a mass orgy of wanton tortures and killings in which masses of regular country folks enthusiastically participated. And all you hear from them are excuses.

    Replies: @szopen, @AP

    , @AP
    @szopen


    It invaded and conquered them in 1918-1919.

    Come on. You are claiming that Poles who lived here for hundreds of years INVADED their own homes?
     
    No, but the Polish state did, on their behalf and with their help. The Polish state between the wars was not, of course, genocidal and thus preventing its return was no excuse for the crimes committed by the Ukrainians.

    Also, I’m really dissapointed you are trying to justify thugs who murdered thousands of innocent civilians
     
    I am not justifying their crimes but comparing them to other crimes of the same time and pointing out that other crimes had more dubious reasons and were conducted on a much larger scale. To repeat what I had written to utu:

    Since UPA and OUN did not have access to internal Polish documents calling for the ethnic cleansing of those lands (and who knows if this would even have been attempted – the local Poles wanted to to do it but the government in exile rejected it), they murdered the Polish civilians in order to prevent the return of Polish rule. Although Polish rule was very unpleasant, it was not nearly sufficiently unpleasant to warrant the mass murder of massive numbers of civilians. There was thus no legitimate justification for this crime.

    My main point was not to justify what UPA did but to point out that their “justification” was no worse than that of the Anglo-Americans who were murdering German and Japanese civilians during that time. Sorry if I was not clear.

    :::::::::::::::

    Saying "X" is not as bad as "Y" does not mean saying "X" was all right.

    Somehow, Taras Borowec who founded first UPA had not thought ethnic cleansing was necessary, despite he also wanted to conquer this territories for Ukraine.
     
    I agree. UPA murdered his wife and many of his followers.
  208. @German_reader
    @utu

    I know, I'm wary of those people.
    But tbh, I don't have a problem with Islamophobia in principle. I'm an Islamophobe myself. And Merkel's policy really has been disastrous and will lead to Germany's destruction. She is undoubtedly one of the worst figures in German history.

    Replies: @utu, @Grahamsno(G64)

    I don’t have a problem with Islamophobia in principle

    I do but I am willing to accept it if it would be helping to keep Europe Muslim free. So far it does not and the only outcome of Islamophobia is support of Israel.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @utu

    There can be a connection between Islamophobia and pro-Israel, but it does not seem to match simply like you imply.

    In the West, people seem generally much more Islamophilic, and it's possible that contributes to anti-Israel views. So reducing Islamophilia, would reduce opposition to Israel. For example, in this forum, almost everyone said they oppose the New Zealand Mosque attack.

    But in the Russian internet - at least popular websites I read - most commentators supported attack on the Mosque New Zealand, and people were getting hundreds of upvotes for supporting it.

    Yet most Russian people are not pro-Israel, despite general dislike of Mosques. And Russia has a friendly external policy with the Muslim world.

    So Islamophobia is not any sufficient condition for being pro-Israel.

    Also most Israelis are more liberal than people like me, and I'm more liberal than most people on the internet - so supporting Israel will not satisfy any real illiberal Islamophobia. (When they learn the reality of Israel, they will just become angry to see Israeli government has good relations with the rulers of a lot of Muslim countries, is full of mosques, and that Kadyrov is allowed to use - presumably federal tax money - to build mosques in Israel).

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson, @Hyperborean

  209. @szopen
    @AP


    It invaded and conquered them in 1918-1919.
     
    Come on. You are claiming that Poles who lived here for hundreds of years INVADED their own homes?

    Also, I'm really dissapointed you are trying to justify thugs who murdered thousands of innocent civilians (including members of my more distant family) - thugs which sometimes sent letters assuring civilians that they are safe and that they do not need to escape, only to attack them later. Somehow, Taras Borowec who founded first UPA had not thought ethnic cleansing was necessary, despite he also wanted to conquer this territories for Ukraine.

    Replies: @utu, @AP

    The question is why Poland is letting millions of Ukrainians in? Why would Poles want to have somebody like AP as their neighbor? Volhynia genocide was the most disgusting crime of the WWII the way it was conducted. It was a mass orgy of wanton tortures and killings in which masses of regular country folks enthusiastically participated. And all you hear from them are excuses.

    • Replies: @szopen
    @utu

    Massacres mainly happened in Volhynia. Some of Ukrainians there were actually helping Poles. UPA also murdered their own people who refused to cooperate. Hard to blame whole nation for the actions of the few. Of course, UPA glorification is disgusting, but somewhat understandable, given that UPA later was fighting against Soviets, and given there are not many other organizations from that period, and Ukraine is still a young nation.

    Also, I've been reading about Civil War in Mozambique and the methods the RENAMO was using to ensure cooperation from the locals (e.g. forcing people to kill their neighbours). Some of them were rather similar to UPA methods.

    Replies: @AP

    , @AP
    @utu


    Why would Poles want to have somebody like AP as their neighbor?
     
    LOL, my best friend and godfather to one of my kids is a Pole, whose aunt was murdered by UPA. Our peoples generally get along okay :-)

    Volhynia genocide was the most disgusting crime of the WWII the way it was conducted. It was a mass orgy of wanton tortures and killings
     
    Soviets, Nazis, Ustase, were all worse.

    And all you hear from them are excuses.
     
    While the crimes were inexcusable, they did not occur without causes. Nor were they unique.
    Pointing this out is not making an excuse for them.
  210. @utu
    @szopen

    The question is why Poland is letting millions of Ukrainians in? Why would Poles want to have somebody like AP as their neighbor? Volhynia genocide was the most disgusting crime of the WWII the way it was conducted. It was a mass orgy of wanton tortures and killings in which masses of regular country folks enthusiastically participated. And all you hear from them are excuses.

    Replies: @szopen, @AP

    Massacres mainly happened in Volhynia. Some of Ukrainians there were actually helping Poles. UPA also murdered their own people who refused to cooperate. Hard to blame whole nation for the actions of the few. Of course, UPA glorification is disgusting, but somewhat understandable, given that UPA later was fighting against Soviets, and given there are not many other organizations from that period, and Ukraine is still a young nation.

    Also, I’ve been reading about Civil War in Mozambique and the methods the RENAMO was using to ensure cooperation from the locals (e.g. forcing people to kill their neighbours). Some of them were rather similar to UPA methods.

    • Agree: AP
    • Replies: @AP
    @szopen

    I generally agree with your comment but:


    Hard to blame whole nation for the actions of the few.
     
    In Volhynia the massacres had a mass component to them - many, many villagers took part in the massacres. There was a lot of pent up hatred that was unleashed by a primitive population that had previously been demoralized by the Soviets and Nazis. The Polish government had been burning down Orthodox Churches in the 1930s and the villagers reacted as they would have in the 18th or 19th century.

    In some ways it was similar to what Polish villagers had done 100 years earlier, though on a larger scale:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galician_slaughter

    Peasants attacked the manor houses of the rebel noble leaders as well as of suspected rebel nobles and killed many hundreds of the estate owners and their families; about 90% of the manor houses in the Tarnów region are estimated to have been destroyed.[14] At least 470 manor houses were destroyed.[12] Estimates of the number of lives lost by Polish estate owners and officials range from 1,000 to 2,000.[9] Jezierski notes that most of the victims were not nobles (he estimates those constituted maybe about 200 of the fatalities) but their direct employees.[12] Most of the victims had no direct involvement with the Polish insurgents other than being a part of the same social class.[8] (Davies also notes that near Bochnia, Austrian officials were attacked by overzealous peasantry.[16]) Bideleux and Jeffries discuss the total number of victims noting that "more than two thousand lives were lost on both sides", which suggests that most of the victims were from among the Polish nobility.[5]

    They were sawing off people's heads and doing things like that.

    Of course, UPA glorification is disgusting, but somewhat understandable, given that UPA later was fighting against Soviets
     
    This makes it somewhat more complicated. A lot of people joined UPA in 1945 or 1946 to fight the Soviets; these people had nothing to do with Polish massacres. Given the rate of attrition the UPA people involved in massacres in 1943-1944 were mostly killed off and the surviving UPA veterans are mostly the ones who joined later.
  211. A poll on #WeChat showing how over 2000 #Chinese respondents react to the shooting in #christchurch. In one of the questions, over 56% of them feel extremely sympathetic after reading his manifesto while more than 60% view the event as a revenge rather than terrorist attack. https://t.co/MxYFJx0iPZ— William Yang (@WilliamYang120) March 17, 2019

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @fnn

    Yes Karlin talked about that Chinese survey. Reaction of Chinese internets, sounds like a more moderate version of Russian internet's reaction to the New Zealand story.

    At least in the website forums I go to, most people supported the Mosque attack. I was a little shocked by the extent of the illiberal attitude of commentators to this story last week. (I don't know if it's just the websites I visit? If someone knows a different internet reaction?).

    It was an example of internet culture clash on this topic. On this story, English internet felt suddenly like a different culture (with a more mature attitude),- almost all in the English internet forums like here was condemning the attack.

  212. @Dmitry
    @Thorfinnsson


    political leaders should have other qualifications and job experience.
     
    Skills learning in the jobs and profession, can be extremely definitive of, and useful for, political leader.

    For Putin - counterintelligence. For Reagan - Hollywood acting. For Obama -community organizing. In the case of Merkel - "quantum chemistry",

    Merkel's work in quantum chemistry, perhaps unfortunately, abstracted her mind completely from the normal world.


    German_reader, like many Germans, has some sort of problem with Mormonism

     

    And their compatriot founded Brigham Young University - perhaps another reason for collective self-punishment
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_G._Maeser

    But I think Mormons, are mainly only being suppressed or arrested in Russia (Jehovah Witnesses are suppressed in many other countries though, not just Russia).

    And in Russia, there is actually now religious toleration. I even see Hare Krishna people quite a lot in public in the city where my parents live, and no-one arrests them, even though they are quite noisy.

    So why are missionaries of Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses, often arrested? I suspect the authorities have seen some evidence of a connection to the CIA or State Department, at least in relation to their missionary activity in Russia.

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson, @songbird

    Acting allowed Reagan to get his gig as host of “General Electric Theater”, which became a long-running TV and radio show. As part of it, he toured 135 GE plants and made speeches in front of possibly 250,000 people or more. I think this was probably more important than his earlier movie career, but I suppose it is hard to separate them.

  213. @Thorfinnsson
    @Epigon

    Those links are a great trip down memory lane and have a lot of excellent material, but I compared the P-51's range to the Spitfire. In fact P-47s were more important than P-51s during the Big Week that broke the Luftwaffe.

    The P-38 having counter-rotating propellers meant that a skilled, properly trained pilot could use differential thrust to escape a single-engine fighter. Useful capability which the Germans sure could've used on their twin-engine fighters. Not the same thing as being a highly maneuverable aircraft, hence why SWPA P-38 pilots in the 5th Air Force mainly exploited their tremendous advantage in speed and diving to use boom and zoom tactics.

    Also, while not a knock on the P-38 itself, poor pilot training meant that differential thrust tactics were rarely used in the ETO.

    http://www.ausairpower.net/P-38-Analysis.html

    Eric Brown was the world's best test pilot of that period and not prone to bias. He liked the Spitfire, but he was fair and considered the P-51 to be its equal. And liking Spitfires was not just a British position. Some of the RAF Eagle pilots that converted to the P-47 from the Spitfire initially hated the aircraft until they learned to exploit its virtues. Adolf Galland also famously told Goering during the Battle of Britain that he would like a squadron of Spitfires.

    The Mach numbers in question related to maneuvering limits in a dive (obviously WW2-era fighters couldn't fly that fast in level flight) and were caused by compressibility in the transonic range. Since this relates to wing design and not the engines, it doesn't matter what kind of P-38 Brown was flying.

    Regarding the engines, that was another problem with the P-38 in the ETO. The engines were known in the ETO as the "Allison time bomb". Bill Knudsen vetoed the effort to equip the P-38 with Merlins, and Allison for various reasons refused to improve the engine sufficiently.

    The Spitfire also had a problem with compressibility (don't recall the limit) which is why the British designed the replacement Supermarine Spiteful.

    The good news for the P-47 is that it didn't need to maneuver in a dive because it could dive faster than its opponents thanks to its great weight and R2800 engine.

    The P-47 had a number of features intended for high altitude operation, but these didn't harm it at low altitude operation other than that they cost money. And actually hydraulically boosted flaps at low altitude might save your life. It's not like it had a specialized high altitude wing (e.g. as on the Ta-152).

    You do bring up another reason for P-51 superiority however: it was cheaper and easier to maintain. Admittedly not relevant to the pilot in the cockpit, but certainly relevant to the USAAF.

    I don't believe that a P-47 could outclimb a late mark Spitfire. Griffon-engined Spitfires, by simple physics, would obviously outclimb a P-47. I suppose past a certain altitude the P-47's turbocharger could've provided an edge over the Spitfire's two-speed supercharger. The Yak-3 obviously would've been shredded outside of a low altitude dogfight owing to its inferior engine.

    Replies: @Epigon

    Counterturning propellers negated gyroscopic forces, precession and P-factor – single-engine fighters had problem turning to one side. P-38 didn’t. The differential throttling was an ADDITIONAL technique P-38 experts could utilise.

    Those Mach numbers you quoted are patently false.
    P-47 was the fastest diving piston engine fighter of WW2, and P-47J and P-47M were fastest piston engine aircraft of WW2.
    As I have already told you, P-47 was better suited for fighting Me-262 than P-51 was.

    Regarding Allisons, V-1710 could be worked to 2500+ HP from 28 litres working volume more reliably than DB605’s 1500 from 35 litres.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    @Epigon

    I hate to be a sourcefag but the idea of a large twin-engine fighter having a superior turn radius and instantaneous turn rate compared to single-engine fighters strikes me as extremely dubious. Do you have anything more detailed about this?

    It's not like the US was the only belligerent to field twin-engine fighters.

    Army Air Forces report: http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/p-38/p-38.html



    b. Inasmuch as the general maneuverability of this aircraft is probably the lowest of any type of current fighter aircraft, and in view of the competition facing the P-38G in the European Theatre, all possible effort should be made to improve its rate of climb and high speed.
     
    I didn't dispute the P-47's high speed diving capability so I don't know why you're repeating that. Do you have evidence that the Mach numbers are false?

    The XP-47J was not a service aircraft. The P-47M was extremely fast, tied with the Ta-152 if memory serves.

    I compared the Allison to the Merlin, not the DB605. Since you are a P-38 fan you should be well aware of the "Allison time bomb" issue in the ETO.

    If comparing American (or British) engines to German ones then the Germans get a handicap because they didn't have 145 octane avgas available.

    Replies: @Epigon

  214. @Epigon
    @Thorfinnsson

    Counterturning propellers negated gyroscopic forces, precession and P-factor - single-engine fighters had problem turning to one side. P-38 didn’t. The differential throttling was an ADDITIONAL technique P-38 experts could utilise.

    Those Mach numbers you quoted are patently false.
    P-47 was the fastest diving piston engine fighter of WW2, and P-47J and P-47M were fastest piston engine aircraft of WW2.
    As I have already told you, P-47 was better suited for fighting Me-262 than P-51 was.

    Regarding Allisons, V-1710 could be worked to 2500+ HP from 28 litres working volume more reliably than DB605’s 1500 from 35 litres.

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson

    I hate to be a sourcefag but the idea of a large twin-engine fighter having a superior turn radius and instantaneous turn rate compared to single-engine fighters strikes me as extremely dubious. Do you have anything more detailed about this?

    It’s not like the US was the only belligerent to field twin-engine fighters.

    Army Air Forces report: http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/p-38/p-38.html

    b. Inasmuch as the general maneuverability of this aircraft is probably the lowest of any type of current fighter aircraft, and in view of the competition facing the P-38G in the European Theatre, all possible effort should be made to improve its rate of climb and high speed.

    I didn’t dispute the P-47’s high speed diving capability so I don’t know why you’re repeating that. Do you have evidence that the Mach numbers are false?

    The XP-47J was not a service aircraft. The P-47M was extremely fast, tied with the Ta-152 if memory serves.

    I compared the Allison to the Merlin, not the DB605. Since you are a P-38 fan you should be well aware of the “Allison time bomb” issue in the ETO.

    If comparing American (or British) engines to German ones then the Germans get a handicap because they didn’t have 145 octane avgas available.

    • Replies: @Epigon
    @Thorfinnsson

    I would have to dig through books and documents I had read long time ago - but it is imprinted in my mind that in the Pacific P-38 aces exploited P-38 advantage in turning on one side to outperform even the nimble Japanese dogfighters.

    You shouldn’t be too hard on dual-engined planes - take a look at Mosquito in its various outfits, including fighter, and it didn’t have the unique P-38 layout. Similarily, Pe-2 light bombers could successfuly maneuver and evade German fighters (empty, of course) - as has been noted. Generally, the key parameters to take into account are engine power (function of altitude), control surface area, and the “drag area” - not just the cross-section but airfoil layout and total surface.

    I dispute the notion that P-47 was limited to Mach 0.71 during dive, or “maneuvering” as you initially stated.
    P-47 could dive in excess of 500 mph and leave every single piston fighter behind them.
    P-47M was faster than Ta-152.

    Regarding diving, it wasn’t just the final velocity - the immediate acceleration when engaging in maneuver was what counted - IIRC correctly P-51 had ~500 mph redline, while P-47 went beyond that. So, P-51D with its laminar flow wings and cleaner form might ultimately come close to max speed, but P-47 would be near its max dive speed sooner. It would also be more controllable at those speeds. Anecdotal evidence isn’t reliable, but there is definitely something in them when P-47 pilots boasted they only had to lower the nose down, full throttle and be gone - German pilots recognized P-47 diving like a brick from them, while P-51 could be evaded in a Bf-109 and FW-190D

    Also, regarding its turbosupercharger - it was dead weight at low altitudes, while the plane sacrificed a lot to have the ability to carry it - size, wing loading, payload, fuel capacity. Maneuvering at low altitudes with dense air was not the same as at high altitudes - energy bleeding in turns was different, control surface impact was different.

    I am aware of the abysmal performance of P-38s in the Mediterranean and ETO - there was a notorious incident where a green formation of P-38 (early type) were ambushed by Bf-109 Experten with altitude and speed advantage - something like 11 - 0 kill count in that battle.
    The P-38 in Europe had terrible reliability and availability rates compared to Pacific - would be interesting to track engine serial number and origin.
    However, this would actually be in accordance with the very steep learning curve and lopsided ratios of air combat - something like 10% of fighter pilots achieved 90% of all kills - my guess due to 3D nature of combat, need to predict opposition’s moves, react instantaneously and “feel” the plane and its weapons - deflection shooting was a craft.

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson

  215. @Thorfinnsson
    @Mikhail

    I think your view is correct, but given that engine oil is not expensive it gives me peace of mind to purchase the best.

    Replies: @Mikhail

    Another important aspect isn’t overfilling, while frequently checking the fluid level. For several reasons, many modern engines consume oil. Overfilling is bad, as is not having enough.

  216. @Thorfinnsson
    @Epigon

    I hate to be a sourcefag but the idea of a large twin-engine fighter having a superior turn radius and instantaneous turn rate compared to single-engine fighters strikes me as extremely dubious. Do you have anything more detailed about this?

    It's not like the US was the only belligerent to field twin-engine fighters.

    Army Air Forces report: http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/p-38/p-38.html



    b. Inasmuch as the general maneuverability of this aircraft is probably the lowest of any type of current fighter aircraft, and in view of the competition facing the P-38G in the European Theatre, all possible effort should be made to improve its rate of climb and high speed.
     
    I didn't dispute the P-47's high speed diving capability so I don't know why you're repeating that. Do you have evidence that the Mach numbers are false?

    The XP-47J was not a service aircraft. The P-47M was extremely fast, tied with the Ta-152 if memory serves.

    I compared the Allison to the Merlin, not the DB605. Since you are a P-38 fan you should be well aware of the "Allison time bomb" issue in the ETO.

    If comparing American (or British) engines to German ones then the Germans get a handicap because they didn't have 145 octane avgas available.

    Replies: @Epigon

    I would have to dig through books and documents I had read long time ago – but it is imprinted in my mind that in the Pacific P-38 aces exploited P-38 advantage in turning on one side to outperform even the nimble Japanese dogfighters.

    You shouldn’t be too hard on dual-engined planes – take a look at Mosquito in its various outfits, including fighter, and it didn’t have the unique P-38 layout. Similarily, Pe-2 light bombers could successfuly maneuver and evade German fighters (empty, of course) – as has been noted. Generally, the key parameters to take into account are engine power (function of altitude), control surface area, and the “drag area” – not just the cross-section but airfoil layout and total surface.

    I dispute the notion that P-47 was limited to Mach 0.71 during dive, or “maneuvering” as you initially stated.
    P-47 could dive in excess of 500 mph and leave every single piston fighter behind them.
    P-47M was faster than Ta-152.

    Regarding diving, it wasn’t just the final velocity – the immediate acceleration when engaging in maneuver was what counted – IIRC correctly P-51 had ~500 mph redline, while P-47 went beyond that. So, P-51D with its laminar flow wings and cleaner form might ultimately come close to max speed, but P-47 would be near its max dive speed sooner. It would also be more controllable at those speeds. Anecdotal evidence isn’t reliable, but there is definitely something in them when P-47 pilots boasted they only had to lower the nose down, full throttle and be gone – German pilots recognized P-47 diving like a brick from them, while P-51 could be evaded in a Bf-109 and FW-190D

    Also, regarding its turbosupercharger – it was dead weight at low altitudes, while the plane sacrificed a lot to have the ability to carry it – size, wing loading, payload, fuel capacity. Maneuvering at low altitudes with dense air was not the same as at high altitudes – energy bleeding in turns was different, control surface impact was different.

    I am aware of the abysmal performance of P-38s in the Mediterranean and ETO – there was a notorious incident where a green formation of P-38 (early type) were ambushed by Bf-109 Experten with altitude and speed advantage – something like 11 – 0 kill count in that battle.
    The P-38 in Europe had terrible reliability and availability rates compared to Pacific – would be interesting to track engine serial number and origin.
    However, this would actually be in accordance with the very steep learning curve and lopsided ratios of air combat – something like 10% of fighter pilots achieved 90% of all kills – my guess due to 3D nature of combat, need to predict opposition’s moves, react instantaneously and “feel” the plane and its weapons – deflection shooting was a craft.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    @Epigon



    I would have to dig through books and documents I had read long time ago – but it is imprinted in my mind that in the Pacific P-38 aces exploited P-38 advantage in turning on one side to outperform even the nimble Japanese dogfighters.
     
    FWIW Richard Bong, the top-scoring P-38 ace, mainly used boom and zoom tactics.


    You shouldn’t be too hard on dual-engined planes – take a look at Mosquito in its various outfits, including fighter, and it didn’t have the unique P-38 layout. Similarily, Pe-2 light bombers could successfuly maneuver and evade German fighters (empty, of course) – as has been noted. Generally, the key parameters to take into account are engine power (function of altitude), control surface area, and the “drag area” – not just the cross-section but airfoil layout and total surface.
     
    Twin-engine fighters were fine interceptors, photo reconnaissance platforms, night fighters, etc.

    To my knowledge they were not dogfighters.

    The P-38 was a fine airplane, as was the Mosquito. Other great twins which missed the war were the F7F Tigercat and the Hornet (successor to the Mosquito).

    A key parameter you're missing is weight, and by extension the power-to-weight and wing loading.


    I dispute the notion that P-47 was limited to Mach 0.71 during dive, or “maneuvering” as you initially stated.
     
    Loss of controllability as aircraft entered the transonic range was a well known problem in the WW2 era. This led to aerodynamic innovations like thinner airfoils, swept wings, the all-moving tail, etc.

    Not the same thing as being UNABLE to dive past a certain Mach number in which case many P-47s, Spitfires, P-38s, etc. would've simply broken up or whatever in any full power dive from altitude--something which obviously did not happen.


    P-47 could dive in excess of 500 mph and leave every single piston fighter behind them.
    P-47M was faster than Ta-152.
     
    A quick check on Wikipedia shows the Ta-152 as being one mile per hour slower.


    Regarding diving, it wasn’t just the final velocity – the immediate acceleration when engaging in maneuver was what counted – IIRC correctly P-51 had ~500 mph redline, while P-47 went beyond that. So, P-51D with its laminar flow wings and cleaner form might ultimately come close to max speed, but P-47 would be near its max dive speed sooner. It would also be more controllable at those speeds. Anecdotal evidence isn’t reliable, but there is definitely something in them when P-47 pilots boasted they only had to lower the nose down, full throttle and be gone – German pilots recognized P-47 diving like a brick from them, while P-51 could be evaded in a Bf-109 and FW-190D
     
    No question that the P-47 could dive faster than the P-51. Normally weight counts against an airplane's acceleration, but this is reversed in a dive. On top of that the P-47 had a 2,600 horsepower engine which far exceeded the P-51 (or any Luftwaffe fighter).


    Also, regarding its turbosupercharger – it was dead weight at low altitudes, while the plane sacrificed a lot to have the ability to carry it – size, wing loading, payload, fuel capacity. Maneuvering at low altitudes with dense air was not the same as at high altitudes – energy bleeding in turns was different, control surface impact was different.
     
    The turbosupercharger was only dead weight at low altitudes in a hypothetical aircraft intended purely for low altitude operation. A turbosupercharger was capable of providing an appropriate amount of boost at all altitudes, which was not the case with a geared supercharger.

    See this wartime General Electric pamphlet for more: http://rwebs.net/avhistory/opsman/geturbo/geturbo.htm

    "The turbosupercharger may be used to increase rated engine power at sea level, or to furnish "ground boost", as well as to maintain rated power at high altitude."
    [...]
    "No matter how many stages or different gear ratios are used, such a geared supercharger can never have the perfect flexibility of speed control of a turbosupercharger, and must always involve some waste of power when operating below the altitude for which it was designed. The speed of the turbosupercharger can be controlled to maintain desired conditions of carburetor-inlet pressure without regard to the engine speed."


    http://rwebs.net/avhistory/images/_geturbo/ge_fig8.JPG

    The P-38 after all, which had its greatest successes in the Pacific where most operations were at low altitude, was equipped with turbosupercharged engines.

    The Germans planned to transition to turbosupercharged engines, but their development program failed owing to persistent shortages of the required high temperature alloys. Priority for these alloys understandably went to axial-flow turbojet engine development.
  217. @AP
    @Denis

    Sure. I condemn what UPA did and hope I did not give the opposite impression. I'll repeat what I wrote to utu:

    Since UPA and OUN did not have access to internal Polish documents calling for the ethnic cleansing of those lands (and who knows if this would even have been attempted – the local Poles wanted to to do it but the government in exile rejected it), they murdered the Polish civilians in order to prevent the return of Polish rule. Although Polish rule was very unpleasant, it was not nearly sufficiently unpleasant to warrant the mass murder of massive numbers of civilians. There was thus no legitimate justification for this crime.

    My main point was not to justify what UPA did but to point out that their “justification” was no worse than that of the Anglo-Americans who were murdering German and Japanese civilians during that time. Sorry if I was not clear.

    Replies: @Denis

    My main point was not to justify what UPA did but to point out that their “justification” was no worse than that of the Anglo-Americans who were murdering German and Japanese civilians during that time. Sorry if I was not clear.

    Finally, we agree on something! The treatment of the Germans by the allies during and after the second world war was atrocious. Not so sure about the Japanese, though, as they got off relatively light compared to the Germans, despite the terror bombings and the nuclear attacks.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @Denis


    The treatment of the Germans by the allies during and after the second world war was atrocious.
     
    AP has on numerous occasions justified Poland's post-war annexations of German territory and the mass expulsions of Germans living there, iirc he used the same argument "It wasn't as bad as the aerial bombing of the western allies".
    His views seem to be rather idiosyncratic, I don't know if there are many other people who view things that way (pro-Polish on one WW-2 related issue, anti-Polish on another). But at least it's interesting to read.

    Replies: @AP, @Denis

  218. German_reader says:
    @Denis
    @AP


    My main point was not to justify what UPA did but to point out that their “justification” was no worse than that of the Anglo-Americans who were murdering German and Japanese civilians during that time. Sorry if I was not clear.
     
    Finally, we agree on something! The treatment of the Germans by the allies during and after the second world war was atrocious. Not so sure about the Japanese, though, as they got off relatively light compared to the Germans, despite the terror bombings and the nuclear attacks.

    Replies: @German_reader

    The treatment of the Germans by the allies during and after the second world war was atrocious.

    AP has on numerous occasions justified Poland’s post-war annexations of German territory and the mass expulsions of Germans living there, iirc he used the same argument “It wasn’t as bad as the aerial bombing of the western allies”.
    His views seem to be rather idiosyncratic, I don’t know if there are many other people who view things that way (pro-Polish on one WW-2 related issue, anti-Polish on another). But at least it’s interesting to read.

    • Replies: @AP
    @German_reader

    1. Germany behaved much worse toward Poland than Poland did to Ukraine.

    2. Forcing Nazi-voting German civilians* to move out of some territories that would be given to their Polish victims is not the same as killing them, as the Anglo-Americans did (while I support the territorial adjustments I do not support the atrocities that sometimes accompanied them). The Anglo-Americans deliberately targeted civilian areas and incinerated 350,000 - 650,000 civilians in Germany. It is absurd to claim that UPA crimes were any worse than that, just because they were low tech.

    *The German regions whose inhabitants were expelled were the same ones that had voted for the Nazis

    Replies: @Denis, @Anatoly Karlin, @for-the-record

    , @Denis
    @German_reader

    Such a shame. I thought we (me and AP) had found some common ground.

    It's pretty ridiculous to argue that the bombings were crimes but the expulsions were not, given that the expulsion of the eastern Germans was pretty clearly genocidal.

    Replies: @AP, @German_reader

  219. German_reader says:
    @Thorfinnsson
    @Dmitry

    Politics is a job. By that standard Kurz is qualified--he has shown a consistent ability to win elections and has worked in politics for his whole adult life.

    People often wring their hands about "professional politicians" (see German_reader), but professional politicians are not new (Bismarck was a professional politician).

    There is often the expressed desire that political leaders should have other qualifications and job experience. Well, the USA elected Donald Trump. He has actually shown a better ability to deal with the media than traditional politicians, but he has not been good at building effective political coalitions and enacting his agenda. Perhaps the lack of political experience is a hindrance.

    Another thing to remember is that Austria and New Zealand are small countries. Austria is smaller than Moscow and NZ is the size of St. Petersburg. So think of Kurz as the Mayor of Moscow and that kiwi slut as the Mayor of St. Petersburg. Still impressive at a young age (especially Kurz!), but not as impressive as the President of the Russian Federation.

    German_reader, like many Germans, has some sort of problem with Mormonism. Mormonism believes in odd things but Mormons themselves are highly functional. The fact that slut left her religion because she worships homo-sexuals is actually far more alarming.

    Replies: @Dmitry, @songbird, @German_reader

    but professional politicians are not new (Bismarck was a professional politician).

    The problem isn’t with people devoting their life to politics, but with parties making the state their prey through state funding for their party foundations and organizations etc. This creates a parasitic caste keen on defending its privileges at all costs, and also completely alienated from the life experiences of ordinary citizens, since they’ve never done anything but politics. Admittedly some of the alternatives (financing parties through donations of wealthy individuals) are also problematic.
    Bismarck could have lived well as an estate-owner without ever entering politics, he also had experience in the diplomatic service. The mediocrities dominating party politics today are rather different imo.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    @German_reader

    If you think about it most of politics consists of organized factions attempted to make the state their prey.

    A "statesman" as opposed to a politician is realistically someone who is so skilled at politics that he's able to stay in power long enough to do something on a grand scale rather than simply satisfy his particular faction/coalition.

    Bismarck, of course, served at the pleasure of his liege lord which was fundamentally different than the situation today. But he was still forced to build coalitions in the Reichstag and Prussian Landtag, which he did in a number of unpleasant ways that today are no longer remember except through his famous quip about laws and sausage making.

    A good example of this is how he got the Reichstag to create a very generous pension for the deposed King of Hanover but inserted conditions which gave him the control of these funds. This was then used as a gigantic political slush fund by him. Today such a scandal would likely result in a lengthy prison sentence.

    What's exceptionally frustrating in politics is when the ostensible leaders of your faction have interests divorced from yours for whatever reason. That might be a newish development of postwar politics and is not exclusive to countries with public financing of parties and elections.

    Alienation from the life experiences of ordinary citizens is perhaps dubious in labor parties but otherwise to be expected from national elites and not new.

  220. @utu
    @German_reader


    I don’t have a problem with Islamophobia in principle
     
    I do but I am willing to accept it if it would be helping to keep Europe Muslim free. So far it does not and the only outcome of Islamophobia is support of Israel.

    Replies: @Dmitry

    There can be a connection between Islamophobia and pro-Israel, but it does not seem to match simply like you imply.

    In the West, people seem generally much more Islamophilic, and it’s possible that contributes to anti-Israel views. So reducing Islamophilia, would reduce opposition to Israel. For example, in this forum, almost everyone said they oppose the New Zealand Mosque attack.

    But in the Russian internet – at least popular websites I read – most commentators supported attack on the Mosque New Zealand, and people were getting hundreds of upvotes for supporting it.

    Yet most Russian people are not pro-Israel, despite general dislike of Mosques. And Russia has a friendly external policy with the Muslim world.

    So Islamophobia is not any sufficient condition for being pro-Israel.

    Also most Israelis are more liberal than people like me, and I’m more liberal than most people on the internet – so supporting Israel will not satisfy any real illiberal Islamophobia. (When they learn the reality of Israel, they will just become angry to see Israeli government has good relations with the rulers of a lot of Muslim countries, is full of mosques, and that Kadyrov is allowed to use – presumably federal tax money – to build mosques in Israel).

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    @Dmitry

    Opposition on this forum to the attack in NZ is not Islamophilia but rather opposition to murder and terrorism.

    Less charitably there is also the fact that our comments are perhaps being collected by counterintelligence services.

    , @Hyperborean
    @Dmitry


    For example, in this forum, almost everyone said they oppose the New Zealand Mosque attack.

    But in the Russian internet – at least popular websites I read – most commentators supported attack on the Mosque New Zealand, and people were getting hundreds of upvotes for supporting it.
     

    There are a lot of indifferent people in other parts of the English internet, though, such as the chan forums and Breitbart.


    https://dailystormer.name/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/Screen-Shot-2019-03-15-at-6.42.39-AM.png

    Total amount of upvotes would probably also be even higher if the deleted comments on Breitbart are included.

    https://dailystormer.name/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/Screen-Shot-2019-03-15-at-6.50.52-AM.png

    Probably good that they aren't directly saying they deserved it, even though it might be a bit on the line anyway. There are lot of people getting arrested for being too enthusiastic and open about their opinions in places like the UK.

    Replies: @Hyperborean, @Dmitry

  221. @German_reader
    @Denis


    The treatment of the Germans by the allies during and after the second world war was atrocious.
     
    AP has on numerous occasions justified Poland's post-war annexations of German territory and the mass expulsions of Germans living there, iirc he used the same argument "It wasn't as bad as the aerial bombing of the western allies".
    His views seem to be rather idiosyncratic, I don't know if there are many other people who view things that way (pro-Polish on one WW-2 related issue, anti-Polish on another). But at least it's interesting to read.

    Replies: @AP, @Denis

    1. Germany behaved much worse toward Poland than Poland did to Ukraine.

    2. Forcing Nazi-voting German civilians* to move out of some territories that would be given to their Polish victims is not the same as killing them, as the Anglo-Americans did (while I support the territorial adjustments I do not support the atrocities that sometimes accompanied them). The Anglo-Americans deliberately targeted civilian areas and incinerated 350,000 – 650,000 civilians in Germany. It is absurd to claim that UPA crimes were any worse than that, just because they were low tech.

    *The German regions whose inhabitants were expelled were the same ones that had voted for the Nazis

    • Replies: @Denis
    @AP


    Forcing Nazi-voting German civilians* to move out of some territories that would be given to their Polish victims is not the same as killing them
     
    In this case it obviously was, given that millions of Germans died during the ethnic cleansing against them in Eastern Europe.

    The German regions whose inhabitants were expelled were the same ones that had voted for the Nazis
     
    So you think that people should be ethnically cleansed/killed based on how they vote? Good to know.

    Replies: @AP

    , @Anatoly Karlin
    @AP

    To briefly wade into this swamp:

    I don't know what the big deal about the Allied bombings is. They were at least minimally defensible militaraily (we now know that the Brits would have been better off continuing to bomb the Ruhr from 1943, but hindsight is 20/20). Let's also not forget that 40,000+ Brits died in the Blitz. If the Germans had had greater bombing capacity, it's not like they'd have refrained from killing many more Brits out of humanitarian concerns. To the extent it was a war crime, it was a squarely reciprocal one.

    In this sense, the UPA massacres aren't anywhere near comparable, despite a lower death toll.

    Replies: @AP, @German_reader, @LondonBob

    , @for-the-record
    @AP

    Forcing Nazi-voting German civilians* to move out of some territories that would be given to their Polish victims is not the same as killing them.

    Dead or Missing in Flight and Expulsion

    In the eastern territories of the German Reich 1,225,000
    In Czechoslovakia 267,000
    In other countries 619,000
    TOTAL 2,111,000

    Source: Alfred-Maurice de Zayas, A Terrible Revenge, The Ethnic Cleansing of the East European Germans, 1944–1950 . De Zayas earlier treated the subject in a more scholarly work entitled Nemesis at Potsdam.

    According to Wiki: "The death toll attributable to the flight and expulsions is disputed, with estimates ranging from 500,000-600,000[10] [11] and up to 2 to 2.5 million.[12][13][14]".

    The victims were of course almost entirely women, children and the elderly.

    Replies: @German_reader

  222. German_reader says:

    Forcing Nazi-voting German civilians* to move out of some territories that would be given to their Polish victims is not the same as killing them

    There are claims that 400 000-500 000 Germans were killed during the expulsions from the Oder-Neiße area which would be more than the number of those killed by allied bombing (estimated at around 300 000 German civilians by Richard Overy). I don’t know how plausible that is (it seems rather high, maybe exaggerated), but there certainly was a lot of extreme unpleasantness involved.
    And the official Polish justification (that those territories were “recovered” and had always been fundamentally Slavic in nature) was of course absolute garbage, in its fundamental nature not totally different from Nazi claims that Germany was merely re-gathering ancient Germanic land.
    But that’s not the point anyway…I have little desire to re-litigate an issue like the Polish-German border or the justice of post-war expulsions which is (or should be) irrelevant today. I just find it amusing how predictably tribal you always are in your judgements…despite your claims that you aren’t a nationalist, you always come up with elaborate justifications for everything your favorite nations/states (Ukraine, Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth, Poland – probably in that order) have done. It’s especially amusing in the case of conflict between your favorites, like in the Polish-Ukrainian conflict during WW2.

    • Agree: Denis
  223. @szopen
    @AP


    It invaded and conquered them in 1918-1919.
     
    Come on. You are claiming that Poles who lived here for hundreds of years INVADED their own homes?

    Also, I'm really dissapointed you are trying to justify thugs who murdered thousands of innocent civilians (including members of my more distant family) - thugs which sometimes sent letters assuring civilians that they are safe and that they do not need to escape, only to attack them later. Somehow, Taras Borowec who founded first UPA had not thought ethnic cleansing was necessary, despite he also wanted to conquer this territories for Ukraine.

    Replies: @utu, @AP

    It invaded and conquered them in 1918-1919.

    Come on. You are claiming that Poles who lived here for hundreds of years INVADED their own homes?

    No, but the Polish state did, on their behalf and with their help. The Polish state between the wars was not, of course, genocidal and thus preventing its return was no excuse for the crimes committed by the Ukrainians.

    Also, I’m really dissapointed you are trying to justify thugs who murdered thousands of innocent civilians

    I am not justifying their crimes but comparing them to other crimes of the same time and pointing out that other crimes had more dubious reasons and were conducted on a much larger scale. To repeat what I had written to utu:

    Since UPA and OUN did not have access to internal Polish documents calling for the ethnic cleansing of those lands (and who knows if this would even have been attempted – the local Poles wanted to to do it but the government in exile rejected it), they murdered the Polish civilians in order to prevent the return of Polish rule. Although Polish rule was very unpleasant, it was not nearly sufficiently unpleasant to warrant the mass murder of massive numbers of civilians. There was thus no legitimate justification for this crime.

    My main point was not to justify what UPA did but to point out that their “justification” was no worse than that of the Anglo-Americans who were murdering German and Japanese civilians during that time. Sorry if I was not clear.

    :::::::::::::::

    Saying “X” is not as bad as “Y” does not mean saying “X” was all right.

    Somehow, Taras Borowec who founded first UPA had not thought ethnic cleansing was necessary, despite he also wanted to conquer this territories for Ukraine.

    I agree. UPA murdered his wife and many of his followers.

  224. @AP
    @German_reader

    1. Germany behaved much worse toward Poland than Poland did to Ukraine.

    2. Forcing Nazi-voting German civilians* to move out of some territories that would be given to their Polish victims is not the same as killing them, as the Anglo-Americans did (while I support the territorial adjustments I do not support the atrocities that sometimes accompanied them). The Anglo-Americans deliberately targeted civilian areas and incinerated 350,000 - 650,000 civilians in Germany. It is absurd to claim that UPA crimes were any worse than that, just because they were low tech.

    *The German regions whose inhabitants were expelled were the same ones that had voted for the Nazis

    Replies: @Denis, @Anatoly Karlin, @for-the-record

    Forcing Nazi-voting German civilians* to move out of some territories that would be given to their Polish victims is not the same as killing them

    In this case it obviously was, given that millions of Germans died during the ethnic cleansing against them in Eastern Europe.

    The German regions whose inhabitants were expelled were the same ones that had voted for the Nazis

    So you think that people should be ethnically cleansed/killed based on how they vote? Good to know.

    • Replies: @AP
    @Denis


    Forcing Nazi-voting German civilians* to move out of some territories that would be given to their Polish victims is not the same as killing them

    In this case it obviously was, given that millions of Germans died during the ethnic cleansing against them in Eastern Europe.
     
    I wrote: "while I support the territorial adjustments I do not support the atrocities that sometimes accompanied them"

    That wasn't clear enough for you?

    The German regions whose inhabitants were expelled were the same ones that had voted for the Nazis

    So you think that people should be ethnically cleansed/killed based on how they vote? Good to know.
     
    I was clear in stating that murdering civilians was unacceptable. OTOH, if you vote for and enthusiastically support a party that invades another country and takes its lands, slaughtering many of its inhabitants, you deserve to be removed from your lands and have them given to the people whom you invaded.

    Replies: @Denis, @Rattus Norwegius

  225. @German_reader
    @Denis


    The treatment of the Germans by the allies during and after the second world war was atrocious.
     
    AP has on numerous occasions justified Poland's post-war annexations of German territory and the mass expulsions of Germans living there, iirc he used the same argument "It wasn't as bad as the aerial bombing of the western allies".
    His views seem to be rather idiosyncratic, I don't know if there are many other people who view things that way (pro-Polish on one WW-2 related issue, anti-Polish on another). But at least it's interesting to read.

    Replies: @AP, @Denis

    Such a shame. I thought we (me and AP) had found some common ground.

    It’s pretty ridiculous to argue that the bombings were crimes but the expulsions were not, given that the expulsion of the eastern Germans was pretty clearly genocidal.

    • Replies: @AP
    @Denis

    The expulsions used criminal methods but expulsion itself was not a crime, whereas the bombings were purely criminal.

    Replies: @Denis

    , @German_reader
    @Denis


    the expulsion of the eastern Germans was pretty clearly genocidal
     
    "genocidal" is the wrong term imo, should be limited to cases where destruction of an ethnic group is the goal (though boundaries between ethnic cleansing and genocide can be fluent, as in the case of the Armenians during WW1). That can't be claimed about the post-war expulsions.

    Replies: @Denis

  226. @Thorfinnsson
    @Dmitry



    Skills learning in the jobs and profession, can be extremely definitive of, and useful for, political leader.
     
    As you pointed out in your comments about the Irkut MC-21 program, there is always the opportunity cost.

    And some skills turn out not to be terribly relevant to politics anyway.

    That said I am a fan of developing many skills. Scott Adams calls this the "talent stack". It's generally more useful than becoming a specialist, unless you are the world's best specialist in your specialty.

    But these skills can be developed in many ways other than so-called "education" or one's nominal job. While Donald Trump was a real estate developer, for whatever reason he chose to become a skilled celebrity and media personality. This then led to a lucrative second career and followed by success in politics.

    George W Bush, while he grew up in a political family, apparently developed no skills of any kind as a young man--other than excellent social skills. Then in his middle age he became a successful politician, no doubt aided by his lifelong cultivation of social skills.

    People are hoping for some kind of a background that produces philosopher kings, but I don't believe there is such a background.


    For Putin – counterintelligence. For Reagan – Hollywood acting. For Obama -community organizing. In the case of Merkel – “quantum chemistry”,

    Merkel’s work in quantum chemistry, perhaps unfortunately, abstracted her mind completely from the normal world.
     
    Reagan and Obama here were simply developing political skills. Acting is obviously useful for a politician, and community organizing is politics.

    Counterintelligence is not politics but is obviously useful in politics, and it's useful for a national leader. Fortunate for Russia.

    As for Merkel's background, completely useless for politics or leadership. Perhaps has some relevance in setting policy for science funding.

    Sweden's Prime Minister was a welder. That's a "real job". He's also a bad Prime Minister and a laughing stock.

    Replies: @Dmitry

    People are hoping for some kind of a background that produces philosopher kings, but I don’t believe there is such a background.

    Well it’s good you talk about Plato, because this is who I was thinking about.

    developing political skills.

    Democratic “political skills”, however, – does not imply “good for country skills”.

    This is implied in the discussion of Plato – Republic, Book VI

    Sophists and whom they deem to be their adversaries, do, in fact, teach nothing but the opinion of the many, that is to say, the opinions of their assemblies; and this is their wisdom.

    I might compare them to a man who should study the tempers and desires of a mighty strong beast who is fed by him-he would learn how to approach and handle him, also at what times and from what causes he is dangerous or the reverse, and what is the meaning of his several cries, and by what sounds, when another utters them, he is soothed or infuriated; and you may suppose further, that when, by continually attending upon him, he has become perfect in all this, he calls his knowledge wisdom, and makes of it a system or art, which he proceeds to teach, although he has no real notion of what he means by the principles or passions of which he is speaking, but calls this honourable and that dishonourable, or good or evil, or just or unjust, all in accordance with the tastes and tempers of the great brute.

    Good he pronounces to be that in which the beast delights and evil to be that which he dislikes; and he can give no other account of them except that the just and noble are the necessary, having never himself seen, and having no power of explaining to others the nature of either, or the difference between them, which is immense.

    http://classics.mit.edu/Plato/republic.7.vi.html

    Skillful politician, like people trained by sophists, becomes very good at understanding what the beast (masses) wants, and how to satisfy its next appetite, or appease it with nice words.

    But desires of a mob, has often little relation to what is actually true or false.

    With the professional politician, you have no more experience than an animal trainer’s, as their whole profession was related to pleasing the beast.

    Why we want politician to have a real profession before, is that they might have some understanding of actual true and false, at least within their narrow sphere.

    Romney, for example, has practical experience in business, which would be relevant for economy. Trump has practical experience in “deals” – or this is how he marketed himself.

    And – more uselessly – Merkel, has experience in “quantum chemistry”, which means her brain was rewired for some years to have zero connection to everyday reality.

    Acting is obviously useful for a politician, and community organizing is politics.

    A lot of President’s job is a symbolic one, and this is where Reagan was excellently trained. You can see he looks like a real gentleman (or Hollywood actor’s interpretation of a gentleman).

  227. @szopen
    @utu

    Massacres mainly happened in Volhynia. Some of Ukrainians there were actually helping Poles. UPA also murdered their own people who refused to cooperate. Hard to blame whole nation for the actions of the few. Of course, UPA glorification is disgusting, but somewhat understandable, given that UPA later was fighting against Soviets, and given there are not many other organizations from that period, and Ukraine is still a young nation.

    Also, I've been reading about Civil War in Mozambique and the methods the RENAMO was using to ensure cooperation from the locals (e.g. forcing people to kill their neighbours). Some of them were rather similar to UPA methods.

    Replies: @AP

    I generally agree with your comment but:

    Hard to blame whole nation for the actions of the few.

    In Volhynia the massacres had a mass component to them – many, many villagers took part in the massacres. There was a lot of pent up hatred that was unleashed by a primitive population that had previously been demoralized by the Soviets and Nazis. The Polish government had been burning down Orthodox Churches in the 1930s and the villagers reacted as they would have in the 18th or 19th century.

    In some ways it was similar to what Polish villagers had done 100 years earlier, though on a larger scale:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galician_slaughter

    Peasants attacked the manor houses of the rebel noble leaders as well as of suspected rebel nobles and killed many hundreds of the estate owners and their families; about 90% of the manor houses in the Tarnów region are estimated to have been destroyed.[14] At least 470 manor houses were destroyed.[12] Estimates of the number of lives lost by Polish estate owners and officials range from 1,000 to 2,000.[9] Jezierski notes that most of the victims were not nobles (he estimates those constituted maybe about 200 of the fatalities) but their direct employees.[12] Most of the victims had no direct involvement with the Polish insurgents other than being a part of the same social class.[8] (Davies also notes that near Bochnia, Austrian officials were attacked by overzealous peasantry.[16]) Bideleux and Jeffries discuss the total number of victims noting that “more than two thousand lives were lost on both sides”, which suggests that most of the victims were from among the Polish nobility.[5]

    They were sawing off people’s heads and doing things like that.

    Of course, UPA glorification is disgusting, but somewhat understandable, given that UPA later was fighting against Soviets

    This makes it somewhat more complicated. A lot of people joined UPA in 1945 or 1946 to fight the Soviets; these people had nothing to do with Polish massacres. Given the rate of attrition the UPA people involved in massacres in 1943-1944 were mostly killed off and the surviving UPA veterans are mostly the ones who joined later.

  228. @AP
    @German_reader

    1. Germany behaved much worse toward Poland than Poland did to Ukraine.

    2. Forcing Nazi-voting German civilians* to move out of some territories that would be given to their Polish victims is not the same as killing them, as the Anglo-Americans did (while I support the territorial adjustments I do not support the atrocities that sometimes accompanied them). The Anglo-Americans deliberately targeted civilian areas and incinerated 350,000 - 650,000 civilians in Germany. It is absurd to claim that UPA crimes were any worse than that, just because they were low tech.

    *The German regions whose inhabitants were expelled were the same ones that had voted for the Nazis

    Replies: @Denis, @Anatoly Karlin, @for-the-record

    To briefly wade into this swamp:

    I don’t know what the big deal about the Allied bombings is. They were at least minimally defensible militaraily (we now know that the Brits would have been better off continuing to bomb the Ruhr from 1943, but hindsight is 20/20). Let’s also not forget that 40,000+ Brits died in the Blitz. If the Germans had had greater bombing capacity, it’s not like they’d have refrained from killing many more Brits out of humanitarian concerns. To the extent it was a war crime, it was a squarely reciprocal one.

    In this sense, the UPA massacres aren’t anywhere near comparable, despite a lower death toll.

    • Replies: @AP
    @Anatoly Karlin

    The Western allies deliberately targeted German residential areas. It was just pure civilian-killing.

    The atom bomb over Japan was different because it actually stopped the war, thus sparing civilians. The terror-bombing of Germany was just senseless murder. I guess it was revenge for the Brits, as if that makes killing innocent people justifiable, but what did Germany do to America?

    UPA was operating on its own territory and killing people in order to prevent their victim's state from coming back to their lands. Also not justifiable (see my other comments) but certainly no less justifiable than what the American and British "heroes" were up to.

    , @German_reader
    @Anatoly Karlin


    I don’t know what the big deal about the Allied bombings is.
     
    It's seen as a big deal not least because so much of it was close to the end of the war in late 1944/early 1945, with some cities like Würzburg being bombed to rubble just days before allied troops entered them. Despite what defenders of specific bombings like Dresden claim, there's no way those bombings were dictated purely by military necessity, to a large extent it was simply vengeance, which is generally seen as a base motive.

    Let’s also not forget that 40,000+ Brits died in the Blitz. If the Germans had had greater bombing capacity, it’s not like they’d have refrained from killing many more Brits out of humanitarian concerns.
     
    There's an element of truth to that, the British public certainly had few reasons to be opposed to bombing of Germany after the German bombing of Britain in 1940/41 (it's all the more remarkable that there was some opposition and controversy even during the war, e.g. Bishop Bell), and of course it's true that Germany lacked good four-engined bombers which has to be considered in any comparison. It's also true however that the policy of the RAF was the most extreme of all air forces in the European theater, with indiscriminate destruction of urban areas and the killing of large numbers of civilians not just a byproduct of deficient technology, but from 1942 at the latest the explicit goal of attacks. This was different both from what the Americans (in Europe) and the Luftwaffe did. And it wasn't just a reaction to prior German actions as is often claimed, but to a significant extent an outgrowth of pre-war RAF doctrine.

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson

    , @LondonBob
    @Anatoly Karlin

    The bombing of civilian areas was always a controversial area, bomber crews only recently received a memorial, I oppose this, and they didn't receive a campaign medal.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lincolnshire-44255399

    Going back to inhabitants and garrisons being slaughtered after a siege this would act as an incentive to surrender. The rules of war were that is was entirely honourable to surrender when the defender's position had become untenable. See the surrender of Fort William Henry in The Last of the Mohicans.

    Replies: @German_reader

  229. @Denis
    @AP


    Forcing Nazi-voting German civilians* to move out of some territories that would be given to their Polish victims is not the same as killing them
     
    In this case it obviously was, given that millions of Germans died during the ethnic cleansing against them in Eastern Europe.

    The German regions whose inhabitants were expelled were the same ones that had voted for the Nazis
     
    So you think that people should be ethnically cleansed/killed based on how they vote? Good to know.

    Replies: @AP

    Forcing Nazi-voting German civilians* to move out of some territories that would be given to their Polish victims is not the same as killing them

    In this case it obviously was, given that millions of Germans died during the ethnic cleansing against them in Eastern Europe.

    I wrote: “while I support the territorial adjustments I do not support the atrocities that sometimes accompanied them”

    That wasn’t clear enough for you?

    The German regions whose inhabitants were expelled were the same ones that had voted for the Nazis

    So you think that people should be ethnically cleansed/killed based on how they vote? Good to know.

    I was clear in stating that murdering civilians was unacceptable. OTOH, if you vote for and enthusiastically support a party that invades another country and takes its lands, slaughtering many of its inhabitants, you deserve to be removed from your lands and have them given to the people whom you invaded.

    • Replies: @Denis
    @AP

    The "territorial adjustments" were clearly inseparable from the massacres and the ethnic cleansing that accompanied them. It makes no sense to declare you support one part of this massive crime, but not the other, but then again, very little of what you say makes sense in the real world.


    I was clear in stating that murdering civilians was unacceptable. OTOH, if you vote for and enthusiastically support a party that invades another country and takes its lands, slaughtering many of its inhabitants, you deserve to be removed from your lands and have them given to the people whom you invaded.
     
    Like I said, your position is pretty stupid, given that, in reality, they were both killed and driven from their homes. But yes, this was the essence of my comment, you support the ethnic cleansing of people who vote wrong, good to know.

    Replies: @AP

    , @Rattus Norwegius
    @AP

    "I was clear in stating that murdering civilians was unacceptable. OTOH, if you vote for and enthusiastically support a party that invades another country and takes its lands, slaughtering many of its inhabitants, you deserve to be removed from your lands and have them given to the people whom you invaded."
    While it is true that most of the territory that Germany lost following WW2 voted were more supportive of the Nazi party, than the German average, not every German in those areas voted for the Nazi party.

    The reason that those areas were taken, was not that they had voted for the Nazi party. it was simply more practical to expand in those geographic areas.

    Replies: @AP

  230. @Anatoly Karlin
    @AP

    To briefly wade into this swamp:

    I don't know what the big deal about the Allied bombings is. They were at least minimally defensible militaraily (we now know that the Brits would have been better off continuing to bomb the Ruhr from 1943, but hindsight is 20/20). Let's also not forget that 40,000+ Brits died in the Blitz. If the Germans had had greater bombing capacity, it's not like they'd have refrained from killing many more Brits out of humanitarian concerns. To the extent it was a war crime, it was a squarely reciprocal one.

    In this sense, the UPA massacres aren't anywhere near comparable, despite a lower death toll.

    Replies: @AP, @German_reader, @LondonBob

    The Western allies deliberately targeted German residential areas. It was just pure civilian-killing.

    The atom bomb over Japan was different because it actually stopped the war, thus sparing civilians. The terror-bombing of Germany was just senseless murder. I guess it was revenge for the Brits, as if that makes killing innocent people justifiable, but what did Germany do to America?

    UPA was operating on its own territory and killing people in order to prevent their victim’s state from coming back to their lands. Also not justifiable (see my other comments) but certainly no less justifiable than what the American and British “heroes” were up to.

  231. @Denis
    @German_reader

    Such a shame. I thought we (me and AP) had found some common ground.

    It's pretty ridiculous to argue that the bombings were crimes but the expulsions were not, given that the expulsion of the eastern Germans was pretty clearly genocidal.

    Replies: @AP, @German_reader

    The expulsions used criminal methods but expulsion itself was not a crime, whereas the bombings were purely criminal.

    • Replies: @Denis
    @AP


    The expulsions used criminal methods but expulsion itself was not a crime, whereas the bombings were purely criminal.
     
    Like I said, it's pointless to distinguish between the ethnic cleansing of the germans and the methods that were used to accomplish it. But even your imaginary peaceful ethnic cleansing would still have been a crime, and a pretty grave one.

    As for the allied bombing campaigns, I agree with AK.
  232. @utu
    @szopen

    The question is why Poland is letting millions of Ukrainians in? Why would Poles want to have somebody like AP as their neighbor? Volhynia genocide was the most disgusting crime of the WWII the way it was conducted. It was a mass orgy of wanton tortures and killings in which masses of regular country folks enthusiastically participated. And all you hear from them are excuses.

    Replies: @szopen, @AP

    Why would Poles want to have somebody like AP as their neighbor?

    LOL, my best friend and godfather to one of my kids is a Pole, whose aunt was murdered by UPA. Our peoples generally get along okay 🙂

    Volhynia genocide was the most disgusting crime of the WWII the way it was conducted. It was a mass orgy of wanton tortures and killings

    Soviets, Nazis, Ustase, were all worse.

    And all you hear from them are excuses.

    While the crimes were inexcusable, they did not occur without causes. Nor were they unique.
    Pointing this out is not making an excuse for them.

    • Agree: Mr. Hack
  233. @fnn

    A poll on #WeChat showing how over 2000 #Chinese respondents react to the shooting in #christchurch. In one of the questions, over 56% of them feel extremely sympathetic after reading his manifesto while more than 60% view the event as a revenge rather than terrorist attack. https://t.co/MxYFJx0iPZ— William Yang (@WilliamYang120) March 17, 2019
     

    Replies: @Dmitry

    Yes Karlin talked about that Chinese survey. Reaction of Chinese internets, sounds like a more moderate version of Russian internet’s reaction to the New Zealand story.

    At least in the website forums I go to, most people supported the Mosque attack. I was a little shocked by the extent of the illiberal attitude of commentators to this story last week. (I don’t know if it’s just the websites I visit? If someone knows a different internet reaction?).

    It was an example of internet culture clash on this topic. On this story, English internet felt suddenly like a different culture (with a more mature attitude),- almost all in the English internet forums like here was condemning the attack.

  234. German_reader says:
    @Anatoly Karlin
    @AP

    To briefly wade into this swamp:

    I don't know what the big deal about the Allied bombings is. They were at least minimally defensible militaraily (we now know that the Brits would have been better off continuing to bomb the Ruhr from 1943, but hindsight is 20/20). Let's also not forget that 40,000+ Brits died in the Blitz. If the Germans had had greater bombing capacity, it's not like they'd have refrained from killing many more Brits out of humanitarian concerns. To the extent it was a war crime, it was a squarely reciprocal one.

    In this sense, the UPA massacres aren't anywhere near comparable, despite a lower death toll.

    Replies: @AP, @German_reader, @LondonBob

    I don’t know what the big deal about the Allied bombings is.

    It’s seen as a big deal not least because so much of it was close to the end of the war in late 1944/early 1945, with some cities like Würzburg being bombed to rubble just days before allied troops entered them. Despite what defenders of specific bombings like Dresden claim, there’s no way those bombings were dictated purely by military necessity, to a large extent it was simply vengeance, which is generally seen as a base motive.

    Let’s also not forget that 40,000+ Brits died in the Blitz. If the Germans had had greater bombing capacity, it’s not like they’d have refrained from killing many more Brits out of humanitarian concerns.

    There’s an element of truth to that, the British public certainly had few reasons to be opposed to bombing of Germany after the German bombing of Britain in 1940/41 (it’s all the more remarkable that there was some opposition and controversy even during the war, e.g. Bishop Bell), and of course it’s true that Germany lacked good four-engined bombers which has to be considered in any comparison. It’s also true however that the policy of the RAF was the most extreme of all air forces in the European theater, with indiscriminate destruction of urban areas and the killing of large numbers of civilians not just a byproduct of deficient technology, but from 1942 at the latest the explicit goal of attacks. This was different both from what the Americans (in Europe) and the Luftwaffe did. And it wasn’t just a reaction to prior German actions as is often claimed, but to a significant extent an outgrowth of pre-war RAF doctrine.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    @German_reader

    Dresden was a major center of rail communications as well as optics production. At the time there was growing frustration that seemingly nothing would end the war, and at least in America there was a growing problem with desertion and resistance to conscription. The late war bombings (not just of Dresden) seem very cruel in retrospect, but every day the war continued meant more Allied casualties. Late war raids were also effective in their intended effects. In the early spring of 1945 the Anglo-American bombing campaign for instance caused the complete collapse of the German rail system.

    It wasn't until well into 1942 that Britain adopted "dehousing" and area bombing as official doctrine of Bomber Command. This largely emerged in response to the wild inaccuracy of night bombing, which itself was an improvisation in response to the fact that daylight raids into occupied Europe resulted in unacceptably high attrition.

    Early in the war all the belligerents largely abided by President Roosevelt's request to limit bombing to military targets, and even attacking civilian industrial targets in Germany was not permitted (against the wishes of Bomber Command) until the Rotterdam Blitz.

    Germany for its part didn't initiate large scale bombing of civilian areas (Rotterdam was not intended) until the British bombed Berlin.

    There was actually a very good German heavy bomber (Heinkel 177 Greif), but it was not produced in substantial numbers and had significant teething problems owing to the failure of German high output aero engine development. These failures were themselves the outgrowth of doctrine (heavy bomber was not a priority) and then the exigencies of war (close support and interdiction on the Eastern Front, fighter defenses for the Reich).

    America did refuse to switch to "area bombing", but shouldn't be considered as some kind of humane strategic bombing force. Only the lead bomber used precision targeting, as all other bombers had to fly in defensive box organizations for protection from German fighters. The weather was frequently overcast as well, which obviously precluded visual target identification.

    Replies: @German_reader

  235. @AP
    @Denis


    Forcing Nazi-voting German civilians* to move out of some territories that would be given to their Polish victims is not the same as killing them

    In this case it obviously was, given that millions of Germans died during the ethnic cleansing against them in Eastern Europe.
     
    I wrote: "while I support the territorial adjustments I do not support the atrocities that sometimes accompanied them"

    That wasn't clear enough for you?

    The German regions whose inhabitants were expelled were the same ones that had voted for the Nazis

    So you think that people should be ethnically cleansed/killed based on how they vote? Good to know.
     
    I was clear in stating that murdering civilians was unacceptable. OTOH, if you vote for and enthusiastically support a party that invades another country and takes its lands, slaughtering many of its inhabitants, you deserve to be removed from your lands and have them given to the people whom you invaded.

    Replies: @Denis, @Rattus Norwegius

    The “territorial adjustments” were clearly inseparable from the massacres and the ethnic cleansing that accompanied them. It makes no sense to declare you support one part of this massive crime, but not the other, but then again, very little of what you say makes sense in the real world.

    I was clear in stating that murdering civilians was unacceptable. OTOH, if you vote for and enthusiastically support a party that invades another country and takes its lands, slaughtering many of its inhabitants, you deserve to be removed from your lands and have them given to the people whom you invaded.

    Like I said, your position is pretty stupid, given that, in reality, they were both killed and driven from their homes. But yes, this was the essence of my comment, you support the ethnic cleansing of people who vote wrong, good to know.

    • Replies: @AP
    @Denis


    The “territorial adjustments” were clearly inseparable from the massacres and the ethnic cleansing that accompanied them.
     
    They didn't have to be.

    It makes no sense to declare you support one part of this massive crime, but not the other,
     
    Not simple enough for you?

    . But yes, this was the essence of my comment, you support the ethnic cleansing of people who vote wrong, good to know.
     
    Depends on whom they voted for.
  236. German_reader says:
    @Denis
    @German_reader

    Such a shame. I thought we (me and AP) had found some common ground.

    It's pretty ridiculous to argue that the bombings were crimes but the expulsions were not, given that the expulsion of the eastern Germans was pretty clearly genocidal.

    Replies: @AP, @German_reader

    the expulsion of the eastern Germans was pretty clearly genocidal

    “genocidal” is the wrong term imo, should be limited to cases where destruction of an ethnic group is the goal (though boundaries between ethnic cleansing and genocide can be fluent, as in the case of the Armenians during WW1). That can’t be claimed about the post-war expulsions.

    • Replies: @Denis
    @German_reader

    It seems to me that it's a bit semantic to argue about the distinction between genocide and ethnic cleansing in this case. You mention the Armenian Genocide, which was a pretty clear instance of the former. If that is considered a genocide, I see no reason whatsoever that the expulsion of the eastern Germans wouldn't be.

    However, even if we were to take a "higher" standard for the term genocide, I would still say that the eastern Germans were subject to this. In the years preceding the war, the treatment of Germans in the Soviet Union was a clear precedent for the fate that would eventually befall them throughout Eastern Europe.

    Many of the methods used to organize the campaigns of mass violence in the early Soviet Union were quite similar to the ones the Nazis would use against their own victims. For example, in "The Gulag Archipelago" Solzhenitsyn draws a parallel between Stalin's mass deportations of "untrustworthy" ethnic groups and Hitler's own methods, suggesting they were not too different. I agree with his analysis. Germans were one of the biggest victims of this policy in the USSR, and I think that when one views their trials throughout 1920-1946 as a whole, a pretty clear case can be made that the eastern Germans were subjected to a genocide.

    Replies: @German_reader

  237. @AP
    @Denis

    The expulsions used criminal methods but expulsion itself was not a crime, whereas the bombings were purely criminal.

    Replies: @Denis

    The expulsions used criminal methods but expulsion itself was not a crime, whereas the bombings were purely criminal.

    Like I said, it’s pointless to distinguish between the ethnic cleansing of the germans and the methods that were used to accomplish it. But even your imaginary peaceful ethnic cleansing would still have been a crime, and a pretty grave one.

    As for the allied bombing campaigns, I agree with AK.

  238. @AP
    @Denis


    Forcing Nazi-voting German civilians* to move out of some territories that would be given to their Polish victims is not the same as killing them

    In this case it obviously was, given that millions of Germans died during the ethnic cleansing against them in Eastern Europe.
     
    I wrote: "while I support the territorial adjustments I do not support the atrocities that sometimes accompanied them"

    That wasn't clear enough for you?

    The German regions whose inhabitants were expelled were the same ones that had voted for the Nazis

    So you think that people should be ethnically cleansed/killed based on how they vote? Good to know.
     
    I was clear in stating that murdering civilians was unacceptable. OTOH, if you vote for and enthusiastically support a party that invades another country and takes its lands, slaughtering many of its inhabitants, you deserve to be removed from your lands and have them given to the people whom you invaded.

    Replies: @Denis, @Rattus Norwegius

    “I was clear in stating that murdering civilians was unacceptable. OTOH, if you vote for and enthusiastically support a party that invades another country and takes its lands, slaughtering many of its inhabitants, you deserve to be removed from your lands and have them given to the people whom you invaded.”
    While it is true that most of the territory that Germany lost following WW2 voted were more supportive of the Nazi party, than the German average, not every German in those areas voted for the Nazi party.

    The reason that those areas were taken, was not that they had voted for the Nazi party. it was simply more practical to expand in those geographic areas.

    • Replies: @AP
    @Rattus Norwegius


    While it is true that most of the territory that Germany lost following WW2 voted were more supportive of the Nazi party, than the German average, not every German in those areas voted for the Nazi party.
     
    It was 90% in Danzig/Gdansk.

    I've visited Silesia, according to locals (including Germans who stayed behind as "Poles") there was mass enthusiasm for the war and the invasion of Poland, in the beginning.

    While you are correct that not everyone there voted Nazi, if territorial adjustments are going to be made as a result of a war that the Nazi party started, it might as well involve territories where most voters were Nazis.

    The reason that those areas were taken, was not that they had voted for the Nazi party. it was simply more practical to expand in those geographic areas.
     
    I agree, but it worked out better that the Germans who voted for the party that invaded Poland and the USSR, and murdered millions of those countries' peoples were the ones whose territory was given to Poland and Russia. While the Bavarians who did not vote the Nazis into power were left alone.

    Here was the % of Nazi votes in the 1933 election:

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/64/NSDAP_Wahl_1933.svg/1920px-NSDAP_Wahl_1933.svg.png

    (Silesia is lighter only because of the ethnic Poles living there)
  239. @German_reader
    @Denis


    the expulsion of the eastern Germans was pretty clearly genocidal
     
    "genocidal" is the wrong term imo, should be limited to cases where destruction of an ethnic group is the goal (though boundaries between ethnic cleansing and genocide can be fluent, as in the case of the Armenians during WW1). That can't be claimed about the post-war expulsions.

    Replies: @Denis

    It seems to me that it’s a bit semantic to argue about the distinction between genocide and ethnic cleansing in this case. You mention the Armenian Genocide, which was a pretty clear instance of the former. If that is considered a genocide, I see no reason whatsoever that the expulsion of the eastern Germans wouldn’t be.

    However, even if we were to take a “higher” standard for the term genocide, I would still say that the eastern Germans were subject to this. In the years preceding the war, the treatment of Germans in the Soviet Union was a clear precedent for the fate that would eventually befall them throughout Eastern Europe.

    Many of the methods used to organize the campaigns of mass violence in the early Soviet Union were quite similar to the ones the Nazis would use against their own victims. For example, in “The Gulag Archipelago” Solzhenitsyn draws a parallel between Stalin’s mass deportations of “untrustworthy” ethnic groups and Hitler’s own methods, suggesting they were not too different. I agree with his analysis. Germans were one of the biggest victims of this policy in the USSR, and I think that when one views their trials throughout 1920-1946 as a whole, a pretty clear case can be made that the eastern Germans were subjected to a genocide.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @Denis


    In the years preceding the war, the treatment of Germans in the Soviet Union was a clear precedent for the fate that would eventually befall them throughout Eastern Europe.
     
    I'm not sure though how important ethnic considerations were for repression of Germans in the Soviet Union before WW2, much of it may rather have been class-based...wealthy, religious peasants were seen as enemies by the communists in general, no matter their ethnic origin.
    I'm somewhat opposed to over-use of the term "genocide" in general, because often it's merely used as a polemical attempt meant to evoke associations with the Nazi genocide of the Jews (which was a fairly distinctive, possibly singular, event that isn't easily paralleled). But of course the legal definition is somewhat different...since there are claims of a "Bosnian genocide" during the Balkan wars in the 1990s, maybe one could make similar claims about the post-war expulsions. I doubt though that it would elucidate the issue or contribute anything positive to Polish-German relations.

    Replies: @Denis

  240. @Denis
    @AP

    The "territorial adjustments" were clearly inseparable from the massacres and the ethnic cleansing that accompanied them. It makes no sense to declare you support one part of this massive crime, but not the other, but then again, very little of what you say makes sense in the real world.


    I was clear in stating that murdering civilians was unacceptable. OTOH, if you vote for and enthusiastically support a party that invades another country and takes its lands, slaughtering many of its inhabitants, you deserve to be removed from your lands and have them given to the people whom you invaded.
     
    Like I said, your position is pretty stupid, given that, in reality, they were both killed and driven from their homes. But yes, this was the essence of my comment, you support the ethnic cleansing of people who vote wrong, good to know.

    Replies: @AP

    The “territorial adjustments” were clearly inseparable from the massacres and the ethnic cleansing that accompanied them.

    They didn’t have to be.

    It makes no sense to declare you support one part of this massive crime, but not the other,

    Not simple enough for you?

    . But yes, this was the essence of my comment, you support the ethnic cleansing of people who vote wrong, good to know.

    Depends on whom they voted for.

  241. @Rattus Norwegius
    @AP

    "I was clear in stating that murdering civilians was unacceptable. OTOH, if you vote for and enthusiastically support a party that invades another country and takes its lands, slaughtering many of its inhabitants, you deserve to be removed from your lands and have them given to the people whom you invaded."
    While it is true that most of the territory that Germany lost following WW2 voted were more supportive of the Nazi party, than the German average, not every German in those areas voted for the Nazi party.

    The reason that those areas were taken, was not that they had voted for the Nazi party. it was simply more practical to expand in those geographic areas.

    Replies: @AP

    While it is true that most of the territory that Germany lost following WW2 voted were more supportive of the Nazi party, than the German average, not every German in those areas voted for the Nazi party.

    It was 90% in Danzig/Gdansk.

    I’ve visited Silesia, according to locals (including Germans who stayed behind as “Poles”) there was mass enthusiasm for the war and the invasion of Poland, in the beginning.

    While you are correct that not everyone there voted Nazi, if territorial adjustments are going to be made as a result of a war that the Nazi party started, it might as well involve territories where most voters were Nazis.

    The reason that those areas were taken, was not that they had voted for the Nazi party. it was simply more practical to expand in those geographic areas.

    I agree, but it worked out better that the Germans who voted for the party that invaded Poland and the USSR, and murdered millions of those countries’ peoples were the ones whose territory was given to Poland and Russia. While the Bavarians who did not vote the Nazis into power were left alone.

    Here was the % of Nazi votes in the 1933 election:

    (Silesia is lighter only because of the ethnic Poles living there)

  242. German_reader says:
    @Denis
    @German_reader

    It seems to me that it's a bit semantic to argue about the distinction between genocide and ethnic cleansing in this case. You mention the Armenian Genocide, which was a pretty clear instance of the former. If that is considered a genocide, I see no reason whatsoever that the expulsion of the eastern Germans wouldn't be.

    However, even if we were to take a "higher" standard for the term genocide, I would still say that the eastern Germans were subject to this. In the years preceding the war, the treatment of Germans in the Soviet Union was a clear precedent for the fate that would eventually befall them throughout Eastern Europe.

    Many of the methods used to organize the campaigns of mass violence in the early Soviet Union were quite similar to the ones the Nazis would use against their own victims. For example, in "The Gulag Archipelago" Solzhenitsyn draws a parallel between Stalin's mass deportations of "untrustworthy" ethnic groups and Hitler's own methods, suggesting they were not too different. I agree with his analysis. Germans were one of the biggest victims of this policy in the USSR, and I think that when one views their trials throughout 1920-1946 as a whole, a pretty clear case can be made that the eastern Germans were subjected to a genocide.

    Replies: @German_reader

    In the years preceding the war, the treatment of Germans in the Soviet Union was a clear precedent for the fate that would eventually befall them throughout Eastern Europe.

    I’m not sure though how important ethnic considerations were for repression of Germans in the Soviet Union before WW2, much of it may rather have been class-based…wealthy, religious peasants were seen as enemies by the communists in general, no matter their ethnic origin.
    I’m somewhat opposed to over-use of the term “genocide” in general, because often it’s merely used as a polemical attempt meant to evoke associations with the Nazi genocide of the Jews (which was a fairly distinctive, possibly singular, event that isn’t easily paralleled). But of course the legal definition is somewhat different…since there are claims of a “Bosnian genocide” during the Balkan wars in the 1990s, maybe one could make similar claims about the post-war expulsions. I doubt though that it would elucidate the issue or contribute anything positive to Polish-German relations.

    • Replies: @Denis
    @German_reader


    I’m not sure though how important ethnic considerations were for repression of Germans in the Soviet Union before WW2, much of it may rather have been class-based…wealthy, religious peasants were seen as enemies by the communists in general, no matter their ethnic origin.
     
    I will quote Solzhenitsyn here:

    "Then there was the wave of Germans-Germans living on the Volga, colonists in the Ukraine and the North Caucasus, and all Germans in general who lived anywhere in the Soviet Union. The determining factor here was blood, and even heroes in the Civil War and old members of the Party were sent off into exile"

    From "The Gulag Archipelago", pg. 78, volume 1.

    This seems to be referring to the period before 1941.


    I’m somewhat opposed to over-use of the term “genocide” in general, because often it’s merely used as a polemical attempt meant to evoke associations with the Nazi genocide of the Jews
     
    Agree

    (which was a fairly distinctive, possibly singular, event that isn’t easily paralleled)
     
    Disagree, it seems to me that both the Armenian genocide and the treatment of the Germans at the hands of the communist regimes are easily comparable to the holocaust in both scale and nature.

    I doubt though that it would elucidate the issue or contribute anything positive to Polish-German relations.
     
    I agree with you that re-litigating the issue is pointless, and it isn't my intention to do so. I'm definitely not arguing this point due to revanchism. However, I still don't really see how it (the abuses and deportations of the Germans) can be considered anything other than a massive crime.
  243. @AP
    @German_reader

    1. Germany behaved much worse toward Poland than Poland did to Ukraine.

    2. Forcing Nazi-voting German civilians* to move out of some territories that would be given to their Polish victims is not the same as killing them, as the Anglo-Americans did (while I support the territorial adjustments I do not support the atrocities that sometimes accompanied them). The Anglo-Americans deliberately targeted civilian areas and incinerated 350,000 - 650,000 civilians in Germany. It is absurd to claim that UPA crimes were any worse than that, just because they were low tech.

    *The German regions whose inhabitants were expelled were the same ones that had voted for the Nazis

    Replies: @Denis, @Anatoly Karlin, @for-the-record

    Forcing Nazi-voting German civilians* to move out of some territories that would be given to their Polish victims is not the same as killing them.

    Dead or Missing in Flight and Expulsion

    In the eastern territories of the German Reich 1,225,000
    In Czechoslovakia 267,000
    In other countries 619,000
    TOTAL 2,111,000

    Source: Alfred-Maurice de Zayas, A Terrible Revenge, The Ethnic Cleansing of the East European Germans, 1944–1950 . De Zayas earlier treated the subject in a more scholarly work entitled Nemesis at Potsdam.

    According to Wiki: “The death toll attributable to the flight and expulsions is disputed, with estimates ranging from 500,000-600,000[10] [11] and up to 2 to 2.5 million.[12][13][14]”.

    The victims were of course almost entirely women, children and the elderly.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @for-the-record


    In Czechoslovakia 267,000
     
    I think more recent studies have reduced that to about 30 000 (as far as I know similar studies haven't been done for the territories annexed to Poland).
    Some of the higher estimates for deaths during the expulsions are probably exaggerated. But there doesn't seem to be much interest in researching the issue, so we may never know.

    Replies: @for-the-record

  244. German_reader says:
    @for-the-record
    @AP

    Forcing Nazi-voting German civilians* to move out of some territories that would be given to their Polish victims is not the same as killing them.

    Dead or Missing in Flight and Expulsion

    In the eastern territories of the German Reich 1,225,000
    In Czechoslovakia 267,000
    In other countries 619,000
    TOTAL 2,111,000

    Source: Alfred-Maurice de Zayas, A Terrible Revenge, The Ethnic Cleansing of the East European Germans, 1944–1950 . De Zayas earlier treated the subject in a more scholarly work entitled Nemesis at Potsdam.

    According to Wiki: "The death toll attributable to the flight and expulsions is disputed, with estimates ranging from 500,000-600,000[10] [11] and up to 2 to 2.5 million.[12][13][14]".

    The victims were of course almost entirely women, children and the elderly.

    Replies: @German_reader

    In Czechoslovakia 267,000

    I think more recent studies have reduced that to about 30 000 (as far as I know similar studies haven’t been done for the territories annexed to Poland).
    Some of the higher estimates for deaths during the expulsions are probably exaggerated. But there doesn’t seem to be much interest in researching the issue, so we may never know.

    • Replies: @for-the-record
    @German_reader

    But there doesn’t seem to be much interest in researching the issue, so we may never know

    Regardless of the numbers, the individual stories are horrific.

    https://vimeo.com/276472292

    From a review in a Scottish newspaper (The Herald):


    1945: The Savage Peace (BBC2) told the largely unknown story of what happened to the Germans after their surrender. For those living outside Germany, notably in Czechoslovakia and Poland, ordinary people who had committed no crime, but who merely happened to be German or Ethnic German, were subject to horrific atrocities which matched what the Nazis did, not in scale, of course, but in method.

    I suppose we don't like to admit this. Most of us prefer to think the Nazis were evil, and so that explains their actions, because if we allow some subtlety to shade the story that will discomfit us, making us think that perhaps any country, and any person, could gas, rape and slaughter. Yet this programme forced us to acknowledge that the 'good' side in the war were also capable of horrors. In fact, they often took care to precisely match what the Nazis did, pushing Germans into concentration camps, carrying out public hangings, lining them up by a pit or a ditch to shoot them en masse, and branding them with swastikas and armbands even though 'their only crime is that they happen so speak German.'

    It was impossible immediately after the war, and perhaps even now, to conceive of a German as a victim. They were branded as Nazis, and the concept of collective guilt made an individual's own innocence or goodness invisible. They were German and so were fair game for the tortured, weary and angry populations who were suddenly free and, sadly, but inevitably, wanted revenge.
     

    Replies: @German_reader

  245. @German_reader
    @for-the-record


    In Czechoslovakia 267,000
     
    I think more recent studies have reduced that to about 30 000 (as far as I know similar studies haven't been done for the territories annexed to Poland).
    Some of the higher estimates for deaths during the expulsions are probably exaggerated. But there doesn't seem to be much interest in researching the issue, so we may never know.

    Replies: @for-the-record

    But there doesn’t seem to be much interest in researching the issue, so we may never know

    Regardless of the numbers, the individual stories are horrific.

    https://vimeo.com/276472292

    From a review in a Scottish newspaper (The Herald):

    1945: The Savage Peace (BBC2) told the largely unknown story of what happened to the Germans after their surrender. For those living outside Germany, notably in Czechoslovakia and Poland, ordinary people who had committed no crime, but who merely happened to be German or Ethnic German, were subject to horrific atrocities which matched what the Nazis did, not in scale, of course, but in method.

    I suppose we don’t like to admit this. Most of us prefer to think the Nazis were evil, and so that explains their actions, because if we allow some subtlety to shade the story that will discomfit us, making us think that perhaps any country, and any person, could gas, rape and slaughter. Yet this programme forced us to acknowledge that the ‘good’ side in the war were also capable of horrors. In fact, they often took care to precisely match what the Nazis did, pushing Germans into concentration camps, carrying out public hangings, lining them up by a pit or a ditch to shoot them en masse, and branding them with swastikas and armbands even though ‘their only crime is that they happen so speak German.’

    It was impossible immediately after the war, and perhaps even now, to conceive of a German as a victim. They were branded as Nazis, and the concept of collective guilt made an individual’s own innocence or goodness invisible. They were German and so were fair game for the tortured, weary and angry populations who were suddenly free and, sadly, but inevitably, wanted revenge.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @for-the-record

    I know, I just find it annoying how this issue is often used by revanchists who still want to refight WW2.
    One could of course draw some conclusions from all this, namely that diversity and ethnic conflict can lead to horrible results...and that it's extremely foolish to wilfully create conditions that could eventually lead to such an outcome.

    Replies: @LatW, @songbird

  246. German_reader says:
    @for-the-record
    @German_reader

    But there doesn’t seem to be much interest in researching the issue, so we may never know

    Regardless of the numbers, the individual stories are horrific.

    https://vimeo.com/276472292

    From a review in a Scottish newspaper (The Herald):


    1945: The Savage Peace (BBC2) told the largely unknown story of what happened to the Germans after their surrender. For those living outside Germany, notably in Czechoslovakia and Poland, ordinary people who had committed no crime, but who merely happened to be German or Ethnic German, were subject to horrific atrocities which matched what the Nazis did, not in scale, of course, but in method.

    I suppose we don't like to admit this. Most of us prefer to think the Nazis were evil, and so that explains their actions, because if we allow some subtlety to shade the story that will discomfit us, making us think that perhaps any country, and any person, could gas, rape and slaughter. Yet this programme forced us to acknowledge that the 'good' side in the war were also capable of horrors. In fact, they often took care to precisely match what the Nazis did, pushing Germans into concentration camps, carrying out public hangings, lining them up by a pit or a ditch to shoot them en masse, and branding them with swastikas and armbands even though 'their only crime is that they happen so speak German.'

    It was impossible immediately after the war, and perhaps even now, to conceive of a German as a victim. They were branded as Nazis, and the concept of collective guilt made an individual's own innocence or goodness invisible. They were German and so were fair game for the tortured, weary and angry populations who were suddenly free and, sadly, but inevitably, wanted revenge.
     

    Replies: @German_reader

    I know, I just find it annoying how this issue is often used by revanchists who still want to refight WW2.
    One could of course draw some conclusions from all this, namely that diversity and ethnic conflict can lead to horrible results…and that it’s extremely foolish to wilfully create conditions that could eventually lead to such an outcome.

    • Replies: @LatW
    @German_reader

    Agree on diversity.

    Btw - and I certainly don't want to take sides as far as Poles, Czechs and Germans are concerned - but have you seen the German girl on Czech border video? It's called 1945 Lost German woman on Youtube. I've watched it many times out of morbid curiosity, she's got such familiar features and so beautiful despite of what happened to her.

    Oh, and the "liberators" did a "great" job with Wilhelm Gustloff, drowning German and Latvian children - collatoral damage I guess it's what it's called.

    May we all be forgiven for what we do.

    Replies: @Dmitry

    , @songbird
    @German_reader

    I don't really like it when Europeans use the term "genocide" for themselves because it feels like seeing Africans rolling metal trashcans down a hill and calling it a space program.

    It is obviously a pale imitation of the political ethnocentrism of Jews, like there is no hope of them ever having dozens and dozens of memorials in the center of cities thousands of miles from the event took place, and they realize it. It is purely derivative, like the lynching museum blacks set up. Simultaneously, there's implicit powerless and admiration in it that seems so unseemly and not befitting people with a proud history.

    Not to mention, it is often so weak-willed a construction, like "I believe X was a genocide. What do you think? " And to add insult to injury, the people asking are often supercucks who would kiss the ass of the first gay Hindu who wanted to rule over them.

    At the very least, you got to come up with your own non-generic name for it and turn it back against one of the aggressor groups. For instance, Armenians are failing because they don't have their own word in the English globalist lexicon - even though their target, Turks, is good. Ukrainians are actually doing a pretty good job. Hindus are failing hilariously, but in a way that is almost a brilliant satire on Jews, so I will give them a pass.

    On the other hand, Irish people who ask if the Potato Famine was a genocide, are the worst supercucks. For one thing, rule number one: you don't pile on against other Europeans. But ethnic rivalry is okay though, if it is sportsmanlike. Bring up massacres sure, but don't use the word "genocide" so generically that it doesn't even have an ethnic modifier, and don't do it with you nose buried in the ass of a gay Hindu.

    Replies: @German_reader

  247. It’s interesting how AP shits so much on Anglo countries for their role in defeating Nazi Germany. His fellow Ukrainians in Canada, who missed out on communism, the Holodomor, and WW2 thanks to Anglo-Canadian generosity, spent most of the last century LEADING the campaign to demoralise and delegitimise the very existence of Anglo-Saxon Canada. Apparently Ukrainians in Australia were also big proponents of turning Australia from an Anglo to a multiculti society. There seems to be a pattern here.

    I really hope AP is just a typical no-skin-in-the-game diaspora nationalist (the worst kind of nationalist, no matter the nationality) because I had a good time in Lviv in January and I’d hate to think the locals, who seemed so nice, are privately as filled with hatred towards every other nationality as he is.

    Just out of curiosity AP would you agree that the recent dispute between Ukraine and Hungary was entirely the fault of the Hungarians?

    • Agree: LondonBob
    • Replies: @AP
    @Matra


    It’s interesting how AP shits so much on Anglo countries for their role in defeating Nazi Germany.
     
    All I did was state that the deliberate targeting and bombing of German civilians areas was a crime.

    Are you suggesting that this terror bombing characterized the Anglo-American role in defeating Germany? I wouldn't.

    His fellow Ukrainians in Canada, who missed out on communism, the Holodomor, and WW2 thanks to Anglo-Canadian generosity, spent most of the last century LEADING the campaign to demoralise and delegitimise the very existence of Anglo-Saxon Canada.
     
    Look to the UK to see what Canada would have been like without Ukrainians, Italians, Greeks, Portuguese, Poles, Hungarians etc. Unfortunately, the Anglo-Saxons specialize in getting themselves replaced by Pakistanis and Nigerians. I guess Canadian ones left to their own devices would take in Jamaicans also.

    You should be grateful that thanks to Ukrainians and those like them, Canada is still nearly 80% of European origin.

    Apparently Ukrainians in Australia were also big proponents of turning Australia from an Anglo to a multiculti society
     
    There were about 30,000 of them in Australia. If you think they impacted anything there..

    because I had a good time in Lviv in January and I’d hate to think the locals, who seemed so nice, are privately as filled with hatred towards every other nationality as he is.
     
    LOL. I stated it was a crime to bomb civilians. To you this makes me "full of hatred towards every other nationality." Paranoia.

    Replies: @Adam, @DFH

  248. @German_reader
    @for-the-record

    I know, I just find it annoying how this issue is often used by revanchists who still want to refight WW2.
    One could of course draw some conclusions from all this, namely that diversity and ethnic conflict can lead to horrible results...and that it's extremely foolish to wilfully create conditions that could eventually lead to such an outcome.

    Replies: @LatW, @songbird

    Agree on diversity.

    Btw – and I certainly don’t want to take sides as far as Poles, Czechs and Germans are concerned – but have you seen the German girl on Czech border video? It’s called 1945 Lost German woman on Youtube. I’ve watched it many times out of morbid curiosity, she’s got such familiar features and so beautiful despite of what happened to her.

    Oh, and the “liberators” did a “great” job with Wilhelm Gustloff, drowning German and Latvian children – collatoral damage I guess it’s what it’s called.

    May we all be forgiven for what we do.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @LatW


    May we all be forgiven for what we do.

     

    What is your view about allegations - perhaps exaggerated - saying there is an "apartheid system" in Latvia today?

    Replies: @Adam

  249. @Epigon
    @Thorfinnsson

    I would have to dig through books and documents I had read long time ago - but it is imprinted in my mind that in the Pacific P-38 aces exploited P-38 advantage in turning on one side to outperform even the nimble Japanese dogfighters.

    You shouldn’t be too hard on dual-engined planes - take a look at Mosquito in its various outfits, including fighter, and it didn’t have the unique P-38 layout. Similarily, Pe-2 light bombers could successfuly maneuver and evade German fighters (empty, of course) - as has been noted. Generally, the key parameters to take into account are engine power (function of altitude), control surface area, and the “drag area” - not just the cross-section but airfoil layout and total surface.

    I dispute the notion that P-47 was limited to Mach 0.71 during dive, or “maneuvering” as you initially stated.
    P-47 could dive in excess of 500 mph and leave every single piston fighter behind them.
    P-47M was faster than Ta-152.

    Regarding diving, it wasn’t just the final velocity - the immediate acceleration when engaging in maneuver was what counted - IIRC correctly P-51 had ~500 mph redline, while P-47 went beyond that. So, P-51D with its laminar flow wings and cleaner form might ultimately come close to max speed, but P-47 would be near its max dive speed sooner. It would also be more controllable at those speeds. Anecdotal evidence isn’t reliable, but there is definitely something in them when P-47 pilots boasted they only had to lower the nose down, full throttle and be gone - German pilots recognized P-47 diving like a brick from them, while P-51 could be evaded in a Bf-109 and FW-190D

    Also, regarding its turbosupercharger - it was dead weight at low altitudes, while the plane sacrificed a lot to have the ability to carry it - size, wing loading, payload, fuel capacity. Maneuvering at low altitudes with dense air was not the same as at high altitudes - energy bleeding in turns was different, control surface impact was different.

    I am aware of the abysmal performance of P-38s in the Mediterranean and ETO - there was a notorious incident where a green formation of P-38 (early type) were ambushed by Bf-109 Experten with altitude and speed advantage - something like 11 - 0 kill count in that battle.
    The P-38 in Europe had terrible reliability and availability rates compared to Pacific - would be interesting to track engine serial number and origin.
    However, this would actually be in accordance with the very steep learning curve and lopsided ratios of air combat - something like 10% of fighter pilots achieved 90% of all kills - my guess due to 3D nature of combat, need to predict opposition’s moves, react instantaneously and “feel” the plane and its weapons - deflection shooting was a craft.

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson

    I would have to dig through books and documents I had read long time ago – but it is imprinted in my mind that in the Pacific P-38 aces exploited P-38 advantage in turning on one side to outperform even the nimble Japanese dogfighters.

    FWIW Richard Bong, the top-scoring P-38 ace, mainly used boom and zoom tactics.

    You shouldn’t be too hard on dual-engined planes – take a look at Mosquito in its various outfits, including fighter, and it didn’t have the unique P-38 layout. Similarily, Pe-2 light bombers could successfuly maneuver and evade German fighters (empty, of course) – as has been noted. Generally, the key parameters to take into account are engine power (function of altitude), control surface area, and the “drag area” – not just the cross-section but airfoil layout and total surface.

    Twin-engine fighters were fine interceptors, photo reconnaissance platforms, night fighters, etc.

    To my knowledge they were not dogfighters.

    The P-38 was a fine airplane, as was the Mosquito. Other great twins which missed the war were the F7F Tigercat and the Hornet (successor to the Mosquito).

    A key parameter you’re missing is weight, and by extension the power-to-weight and wing loading.

    I dispute the notion that P-47 was limited to Mach 0.71 during dive, or “maneuvering” as you initially stated.

    Loss of controllability as aircraft entered the transonic range was a well known problem in the WW2 era. This led to aerodynamic innovations like thinner airfoils, swept wings, the all-moving tail, etc.

    Not the same thing as being UNABLE to dive past a certain Mach number in which case many P-47s, Spitfires, P-38s, etc. would’ve simply broken up or whatever in any full power dive from altitude–something which obviously did not happen.

    P-47 could dive in excess of 500 mph and leave every single piston fighter behind them.
    P-47M was faster than Ta-152.

    A quick check on Wikipedia shows the Ta-152 as being one mile per hour slower.

    Regarding diving, it wasn’t just the final velocity – the immediate acceleration when engaging in maneuver was what counted – IIRC correctly P-51 had ~500 mph redline, while P-47 went beyond that. So, P-51D with its laminar flow wings and cleaner form might ultimately come close to max speed, but P-47 would be near its max dive speed sooner. It would also be more controllable at those speeds. Anecdotal evidence isn’t reliable, but there is definitely something in them when P-47 pilots boasted they only had to lower the nose down, full throttle and be gone – German pilots recognized P-47 diving like a brick from them, while P-51 could be evaded in a Bf-109 and FW-190D

    No question that the P-47 could dive faster than the P-51. Normally weight counts against an airplane’s acceleration, but this is reversed in a dive. On top of that the P-47 had a 2,600 horsepower engine which far exceeded the P-51 (or any Luftwaffe fighter).

    Also, regarding its turbosupercharger – it was dead weight at low altitudes, while the plane sacrificed a lot to have the ability to carry it – size, wing loading, payload, fuel capacity. Maneuvering at low altitudes with dense air was not the same as at high altitudes – energy bleeding in turns was different, control surface impact was different.

    The turbosupercharger was only dead weight at low altitudes in a hypothetical aircraft intended purely for low altitude operation. A turbosupercharger was capable of providing an appropriate amount of boost at all altitudes, which was not the case with a geared supercharger.

    See this wartime General Electric pamphlet for more: http://rwebs.net/avhistory/opsman/geturbo/geturbo.htm

    “The turbosupercharger may be used to increase rated engine power at sea level, or to furnish “ground boost”, as well as to maintain rated power at high altitude.”
    […]
    “No matter how many stages or different gear ratios are used, such a geared supercharger can never have the perfect flexibility of speed control of a turbosupercharger, and must always involve some waste of power when operating below the altitude for which it was designed. The speed of the turbosupercharger can be controlled to maintain desired conditions of carburetor-inlet pressure without regard to the engine speed.”

    The P-38 after all, which had its greatest successes in the Pacific where most operations were at low altitude, was equipped with turbosupercharged engines.

    The Germans planned to transition to turbosupercharged engines, but their development program failed owing to persistent shortages of the required high temperature alloys. Priority for these alloys understandably went to axial-flow turbojet engine development.

  250. @German_reader
    @Thorfinnsson


    but professional politicians are not new (Bismarck was a professional politician).
     
    The problem isn't with people devoting their life to politics, but with parties making the state their prey through state funding for their party foundations and organizations etc. This creates a parasitic caste keen on defending its privileges at all costs, and also completely alienated from the life experiences of ordinary citizens, since they've never done anything but politics. Admittedly some of the alternatives (financing parties through donations of wealthy individuals) are also problematic.
    Bismarck could have lived well as an estate-owner without ever entering politics, he also had experience in the diplomatic service. The mediocrities dominating party politics today are rather different imo.

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson

    If you think about it most of politics consists of organized factions attempted to make the state their prey.

    A “statesman” as opposed to a politician is realistically someone who is so skilled at politics that he’s able to stay in power long enough to do something on a grand scale rather than simply satisfy his particular faction/coalition.

    Bismarck, of course, served at the pleasure of his liege lord which was fundamentally different than the situation today. But he was still forced to build coalitions in the Reichstag and Prussian Landtag, which he did in a number of unpleasant ways that today are no longer remember except through his famous quip about laws and sausage making.

    A good example of this is how he got the Reichstag to create a very generous pension for the deposed King of Hanover but inserted conditions which gave him the control of these funds. This was then used as a gigantic political slush fund by him. Today such a scandal would likely result in a lengthy prison sentence.

    What’s exceptionally frustrating in politics is when the ostensible leaders of your faction have interests divorced from yours for whatever reason. That might be a newish development of postwar politics and is not exclusive to countries with public financing of parties and elections.

    Alienation from the life experiences of ordinary citizens is perhaps dubious in labor parties but otherwise to be expected from national elites and not new.

    • Agree: Epigon
  251. @Dmitry
    @utu

    There can be a connection between Islamophobia and pro-Israel, but it does not seem to match simply like you imply.

    In the West, people seem generally much more Islamophilic, and it's possible that contributes to anti-Israel views. So reducing Islamophilia, would reduce opposition to Israel. For example, in this forum, almost everyone said they oppose the New Zealand Mosque attack.

    But in the Russian internet - at least popular websites I read - most commentators supported attack on the Mosque New Zealand, and people were getting hundreds of upvotes for supporting it.

    Yet most Russian people are not pro-Israel, despite general dislike of Mosques. And Russia has a friendly external policy with the Muslim world.

    So Islamophobia is not any sufficient condition for being pro-Israel.

    Also most Israelis are more liberal than people like me, and I'm more liberal than most people on the internet - so supporting Israel will not satisfy any real illiberal Islamophobia. (When they learn the reality of Israel, they will just become angry to see Israeli government has good relations with the rulers of a lot of Muslim countries, is full of mosques, and that Kadyrov is allowed to use - presumably federal tax money - to build mosques in Israel).

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson, @Hyperborean

    Opposition on this forum to the attack in NZ is not Islamophilia but rather opposition to murder and terrorism.

    Less charitably there is also the fact that our comments are perhaps being collected by counterintelligence services.

  252. @German_reader
    @for-the-record

    I know, I just find it annoying how this issue is often used by revanchists who still want to refight WW2.
    One could of course draw some conclusions from all this, namely that diversity and ethnic conflict can lead to horrible results...and that it's extremely foolish to wilfully create conditions that could eventually lead to such an outcome.

    Replies: @LatW, @songbird

    I don’t really like it when Europeans use the term “genocide” for themselves because it feels like seeing Africans rolling metal trashcans down a hill and calling it a space program.

    It is obviously a pale imitation of the political ethnocentrism of Jews, like there is no hope of them ever having dozens and dozens of memorials in the center of cities thousands of miles from the event took place, and they realize it. It is purely derivative, like the lynching museum blacks set up. Simultaneously, there’s implicit powerless and admiration in it that seems so unseemly and not befitting people with a proud history.

    Not to mention, it is often so weak-willed a construction, like “I believe X was a genocide. What do you think? ” And to add insult to injury, the people asking are often supercucks who would kiss the ass of the first gay Hindu who wanted to rule over them.

    At the very least, you got to come up with your own non-generic name for it and turn it back against one of the aggressor groups. For instance, Armenians are failing because they don’t have their own word in the English globalist lexicon – even though their target, Turks, is good. Ukrainians are actually doing a pretty good job. Hindus are failing hilariously, but in a way that is almost a brilliant satire on Jews, so I will give them a pass.

    On the other hand, Irish people who ask if the Potato Famine was a genocide, are the worst supercucks. For one thing, rule number one: you don’t pile on against other Europeans. But ethnic rivalry is okay though, if it is sportsmanlike. Bring up massacres sure, but don’t use the word “genocide” so generically that it doesn’t even have an ethnic modifier, and don’t do it with you nose buried in the ass of a gay Hindu.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @songbird


    Ukrainians are actually doing a pretty good job.
     
    I don't know, does anybody really go on much about the Holodomor narrative except alt-righters, who are only interested in it because they blame it on Jews? Some mainstream historians like Timothy Snyder may allude to parts of it, but that is transparently motivated by anti-Russian animus. On its own, the Ukrainian famine isn't that interesting to most people.

    Hindus are failing hilariously
     
    Who did supposedly genocide them? Mahmud of Ghazni? Aurangzeb? Churchill? Well, that wasn't very successful then, since there are still so many Hindus around.

    I agree with you about use of the term "genocide", in a way it's another manifestation of the sickening glorification of victimhood prevalent in Western societies today.

    Replies: @songbird

  253. @Denis
    @German_reader

    It is because they are projecting their nationalist inclinations wrt their own countries onto Israel.

    From the point of view of an uninformed westerner (especially in the Anglosphere), Israeli Jews are a group of white, pseudo-Christian people fighting a bunch of brown Muslims. Throughout the west, it is more-or-less socially unacceptable (for white people) to complain about non-white immigration, or to express any sentiment that could possibly be construed as racism; so, those who hold those sentiments but can't express them properly project them onto Israel, since supporting Israel is perfectly acceptable. In doing so, they use Israel, which they imagine to be a semi-western, semi-Christian country, as a proxy for their own country. This is why they get as emotional as they do; they are (probably subconsciously) mentally substituting Israel and Israelis for their own countries and their own people.

    It's pretty retarded.

    Replies: @Byrresheim

    Retarded it is, it should end asap.

  254. @Dmitry
    @utu

    There can be a connection between Islamophobia and pro-Israel, but it does not seem to match simply like you imply.

    In the West, people seem generally much more Islamophilic, and it's possible that contributes to anti-Israel views. So reducing Islamophilia, would reduce opposition to Israel. For example, in this forum, almost everyone said they oppose the New Zealand Mosque attack.

    But in the Russian internet - at least popular websites I read - most commentators supported attack on the Mosque New Zealand, and people were getting hundreds of upvotes for supporting it.

    Yet most Russian people are not pro-Israel, despite general dislike of Mosques. And Russia has a friendly external policy with the Muslim world.

    So Islamophobia is not any sufficient condition for being pro-Israel.

    Also most Israelis are more liberal than people like me, and I'm more liberal than most people on the internet - so supporting Israel will not satisfy any real illiberal Islamophobia. (When they learn the reality of Israel, they will just become angry to see Israeli government has good relations with the rulers of a lot of Muslim countries, is full of mosques, and that Kadyrov is allowed to use - presumably federal tax money - to build mosques in Israel).

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson, @Hyperborean

    For example, in this forum, almost everyone said they oppose the New Zealand Mosque attack.

    But in the Russian internet – at least popular websites I read – most commentators supported attack on the Mosque New Zealand, and people were getting hundreds of upvotes for supporting it.

    There are a lot of indifferent people in other parts of the English internet, though, such as the chan forums and Breitbart.


    Total amount of upvotes would probably also be even higher if the deleted comments on Breitbart are included.

    Probably good that they aren’t directly saying they deserved it, even though it might be a bit on the line anyway. There are lot of people getting arrested for being too enthusiastic and open about their opinions in places like the UK.

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
    @Hyperborean

    President "be fruitful and takeover Europe" Erdoğan (or his secretary) pretends he cares:

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/recep-tayyip-erdogan-the-new-zealand-killer-and-the-islamic-state-are-cut-from-the-same-cloth/2019/03/19/

    All at the same time he is inciting Turks at his campaign rallies and promising a repeat of Gallipoli. But that is to be expected from shitty Middle Easterners.

    , @Dmitry
    @Hyperborean

    Those comments are not supporting the attack though.

    Also Breitbart is a website, which is very critical of Muslim immigration.

    Breitbart website is semi-Israeli American, and was possibly established in Netanyahu's office? at least I read an article there suggesting that.

    In any case, Breitbart not representative of normal English speaking netizens.

    -

    I felt like the internet culture clash, was very large on that topic. Most commentators on some liberal, educated, websites I read, were supporting the attack and joking about the video. .

  255. @Hyperborean
    @Dmitry


    For example, in this forum, almost everyone said they oppose the New Zealand Mosque attack.

    But in the Russian internet – at least popular websites I read – most commentators supported attack on the Mosque New Zealand, and people were getting hundreds of upvotes for supporting it.
     

    There are a lot of indifferent people in other parts of the English internet, though, such as the chan forums and Breitbart.


    https://dailystormer.name/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/Screen-Shot-2019-03-15-at-6.42.39-AM.png

    Total amount of upvotes would probably also be even higher if the deleted comments on Breitbart are included.

    https://dailystormer.name/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/Screen-Shot-2019-03-15-at-6.50.52-AM.png

    Probably good that they aren't directly saying they deserved it, even though it might be a bit on the line anyway. There are lot of people getting arrested for being too enthusiastic and open about their opinions in places like the UK.

    Replies: @Hyperborean, @Dmitry

    President “be fruitful and takeover Europe” Erdoğan (or his secretary) pretends he cares:

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/recep-tayyip-erdogan-the-new-zealand-killer-and-the-islamic-state-are-cut-from-the-same-cloth/2019/03/19/

    All at the same time he is inciting Turks at his campaign rallies and promising a repeat of Gallipoli. But that is to be expected from shitty Middle Easterners.

  256. During the recent Dutch provincial and, indirectly, the senate elections the Party for Freedom (PVV) under Geert Wilders went from 9 to 5 seats while the Forum for Democracy (FvD), led by Thierry Baudet, went from 0 to 12/13, equal or slightly larger to the largest party, the cuckservative traitor party VVD.

    This is a very positive development. The PVV has low class associations and often excessively focused on ‘counter-jihad’ nonsense (also well as being completely controlled by Wilders) while the FvD is more identitarian and has higher human quality (IIRC, many of their MPs are intellectuals and classical musicians, etc.)

    Here is Baudet’s speech:

    https://www.counter-currents.com/2019/03/populism-triumphs-in-the-netherlands/

    I think it is a good speech, especially for cultural themes like rebirth, criticising ugly architecture, and pledging to purge public television (if they mean to replace personel and not dismantle it).

    The only quibble I have is that the ice age and mammoth-slaying talk is a bit too svidomite.

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
    @Hyperborean

    I forgot to add: Like in neighbouring Germany, the Green Party is growing in popularity as well in Netherlands (in Amsterdam they got a quarter of the vote)

    There hasn't been much conflict due to the growing polarisation and radicalisation yet but it will most likely become more serious the next 10-15 years.

    , @German_reader
    @Hyperborean


    The only quibble I have is that the ice age and mammoth-slaying talk is a bit too svidomite.
     
    The "On this rock, will we build our church" part is a bit much as well, could be seen as almost blasphemous.
    But maybe that sort of quasi-religious talk in politics is needed. Interesting development in any case, seems the Netherlands is similar to Germany, with increasing polarization due to the events since 2015. Unfortunate though that the right is still in a distinct minority position, despite everything that has happened.

    Replies: @Mitleser

  257. @Hyperborean
    During the recent Dutch provincial and, indirectly, the senate elections the Party for Freedom (PVV) under Geert Wilders went from 9 to 5 seats while the Forum for Democracy (FvD), led by Thierry Baudet, went from 0 to 12/13, equal or slightly larger to the largest party, the cuckservative traitor party VVD.

    This is a very positive development. The PVV has low class associations and often excessively focused on 'counter-jihad' nonsense (also well as being completely controlled by Wilders) while the FvD is more identitarian and has higher human quality (IIRC, many of their MPs are intellectuals and classical musicians, etc.)

    Here is Baudet's speech:

    https://www.counter-currents.com/2019/03/populism-triumphs-in-the-netherlands/

    I think it is a good speech, especially for cultural themes like rebirth, criticising ugly architecture, and pledging to purge public television (if they mean to replace personel and not dismantle it).

    The only quibble I have is that the ice age and mammoth-slaying talk is a bit too svidomite.

    Replies: @Hyperborean, @German_reader

    I forgot to add: Like in neighbouring Germany, the Green Party is growing in popularity as well in Netherlands (in Amsterdam they got a quarter of the vote)

    There hasn’t been much conflict due to the growing polarisation and radicalisation yet but it will most likely become more serious the next 10-15 years.

  258. @Anatoly Karlin
    @AP

    To briefly wade into this swamp:

    I don't know what the big deal about the Allied bombings is. They were at least minimally defensible militaraily (we now know that the Brits would have been better off continuing to bomb the Ruhr from 1943, but hindsight is 20/20). Let's also not forget that 40,000+ Brits died in the Blitz. If the Germans had had greater bombing capacity, it's not like they'd have refrained from killing many more Brits out of humanitarian concerns. To the extent it was a war crime, it was a squarely reciprocal one.

    In this sense, the UPA massacres aren't anywhere near comparable, despite a lower death toll.

    Replies: @AP, @German_reader, @LondonBob

    The bombing of civilian areas was always a controversial area, bomber crews only recently received a memorial, I oppose this, and they didn’t receive a campaign medal.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lincolnshire-44255399

    Going back to inhabitants and garrisons being slaughtered after a siege this would act as an incentive to surrender. The rules of war were that is was entirely honourable to surrender when the defender’s position had become untenable. See the surrender of Fort William Henry in The Last of the Mohicans.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @LondonBob


    and they didn’t receive a campaign medal
     
    That was pretty shabby treatment though, especially given the very high loss rate (almost 50%, iirc about 55 000 in absolute numbers) of Bomber Command's aircrews.
  259. German_reader says:
    @songbird
    @German_reader

    I don't really like it when Europeans use the term "genocide" for themselves because it feels like seeing Africans rolling metal trashcans down a hill and calling it a space program.

    It is obviously a pale imitation of the political ethnocentrism of Jews, like there is no hope of them ever having dozens and dozens of memorials in the center of cities thousands of miles from the event took place, and they realize it. It is purely derivative, like the lynching museum blacks set up. Simultaneously, there's implicit powerless and admiration in it that seems so unseemly and not befitting people with a proud history.

    Not to mention, it is often so weak-willed a construction, like "I believe X was a genocide. What do you think? " And to add insult to injury, the people asking are often supercucks who would kiss the ass of the first gay Hindu who wanted to rule over them.

    At the very least, you got to come up with your own non-generic name for it and turn it back against one of the aggressor groups. For instance, Armenians are failing because they don't have their own word in the English globalist lexicon - even though their target, Turks, is good. Ukrainians are actually doing a pretty good job. Hindus are failing hilariously, but in a way that is almost a brilliant satire on Jews, so I will give them a pass.

    On the other hand, Irish people who ask if the Potato Famine was a genocide, are the worst supercucks. For one thing, rule number one: you don't pile on against other Europeans. But ethnic rivalry is okay though, if it is sportsmanlike. Bring up massacres sure, but don't use the word "genocide" so generically that it doesn't even have an ethnic modifier, and don't do it with you nose buried in the ass of a gay Hindu.

    Replies: @German_reader

    Ukrainians are actually doing a pretty good job.

    I don’t know, does anybody really go on much about the Holodomor narrative except alt-righters, who are only interested in it because they blame it on Jews? Some mainstream historians like Timothy Snyder may allude to parts of it, but that is transparently motivated by anti-Russian animus. On its own, the Ukrainian famine isn’t that interesting to most people.

    Hindus are failing hilariously

    Who did supposedly genocide them? Mahmud of Ghazni? Aurangzeb? Churchill? Well, that wasn’t very successful then, since there are still so many Hindus around.

    I agree with you about use of the term “genocide”, in a way it’s another manifestation of the sickening glorification of victimhood prevalent in Western societies today.

    • Replies: @songbird
    @German_reader

    Pakistan has several missiles with names that must irritate Indians. Ghaznavi, Babur, Ghauri. They can also be designated by using "Hatf" (the name of Muhammad's sword or lance) and a number.

    One of their longer range missiles is named "Abadeel" which means "swallow .". But even that is thought to be a closeted reference to India, since it is thought to refer to birds who supposedly dropped stones on war elephants threatening the Kaaba in pre-Islamic times.

    Too bad that Britain doesn't have Churchill tanks anymore, but maybe that would only get the goat of Indians and not Pakis. Maybe, they could name some weapon after Cecil Rhodes, closeted gay though he was, to annoy Africans.

  260. @LondonBob
    @Anatoly Karlin

    The bombing of civilian areas was always a controversial area, bomber crews only recently received a memorial, I oppose this, and they didn't receive a campaign medal.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lincolnshire-44255399

    Going back to inhabitants and garrisons being slaughtered after a siege this would act as an incentive to surrender. The rules of war were that is was entirely honourable to surrender when the defender's position had become untenable. See the surrender of Fort William Henry in The Last of the Mohicans.

    Replies: @German_reader

    and they didn’t receive a campaign medal

    That was pretty shabby treatment though, especially given the very high loss rate (almost 50%, iirc about 55 000 in absolute numbers) of Bomber Command’s aircrews.

  261. German_reader says:
    @Hyperborean
    During the recent Dutch provincial and, indirectly, the senate elections the Party for Freedom (PVV) under Geert Wilders went from 9 to 5 seats while the Forum for Democracy (FvD), led by Thierry Baudet, went from 0 to 12/13, equal or slightly larger to the largest party, the cuckservative traitor party VVD.

    This is a very positive development. The PVV has low class associations and often excessively focused on 'counter-jihad' nonsense (also well as being completely controlled by Wilders) while the FvD is more identitarian and has higher human quality (IIRC, many of their MPs are intellectuals and classical musicians, etc.)

    Here is Baudet's speech:

    https://www.counter-currents.com/2019/03/populism-triumphs-in-the-netherlands/

    I think it is a good speech, especially for cultural themes like rebirth, criticising ugly architecture, and pledging to purge public television (if they mean to replace personel and not dismantle it).

    The only quibble I have is that the ice age and mammoth-slaying talk is a bit too svidomite.

    Replies: @Hyperborean, @German_reader

    The only quibble I have is that the ice age and mammoth-slaying talk is a bit too svidomite.

    The “On this rock, will we build our church” part is a bit much as well, could be seen as almost blasphemous.
    But maybe that sort of quasi-religious talk in politics is needed. Interesting development in any case, seems the Netherlands is similar to Germany, with increasing polarization due to the events since 2015. Unfortunate though that the right is still in a distinct minority position, despite everything that has happened.

    • Replies: @Mitleser
    @German_reader

    It will remain a distinct minority position until the anti-right establishment discredits itself.

  262. @German_reader
    @Hyperborean


    The only quibble I have is that the ice age and mammoth-slaying talk is a bit too svidomite.
     
    The "On this rock, will we build our church" part is a bit much as well, could be seen as almost blasphemous.
    But maybe that sort of quasi-religious talk in politics is needed. Interesting development in any case, seems the Netherlands is similar to Germany, with increasing polarization due to the events since 2015. Unfortunate though that the right is still in a distinct minority position, despite everything that has happened.

    Replies: @Mitleser

    It will remain a distinct minority position until the anti-right establishment discredits itself.

  263. Given the previous discussions about Mormons on earlier Open Threads, I thought this longread academic-style article on Mormon ethnography might prove interesting:

    https://www.socialmatter.net/2019/03/13/the-pursuit-of-worthiness-lessons-drawn-from-the-mormon-experience/

    • Agree: Dmitry
  264. @German_reader
    @Anatoly Karlin


    I don’t know what the big deal about the Allied bombings is.
     
    It's seen as a big deal not least because so much of it was close to the end of the war in late 1944/early 1945, with some cities like Würzburg being bombed to rubble just days before allied troops entered them. Despite what defenders of specific bombings like Dresden claim, there's no way those bombings were dictated purely by military necessity, to a large extent it was simply vengeance, which is generally seen as a base motive.

    Let’s also not forget that 40,000+ Brits died in the Blitz. If the Germans had had greater bombing capacity, it’s not like they’d have refrained from killing many more Brits out of humanitarian concerns.
     
    There's an element of truth to that, the British public certainly had few reasons to be opposed to bombing of Germany after the German bombing of Britain in 1940/41 (it's all the more remarkable that there was some opposition and controversy even during the war, e.g. Bishop Bell), and of course it's true that Germany lacked good four-engined bombers which has to be considered in any comparison. It's also true however that the policy of the RAF was the most extreme of all air forces in the European theater, with indiscriminate destruction of urban areas and the killing of large numbers of civilians not just a byproduct of deficient technology, but from 1942 at the latest the explicit goal of attacks. This was different both from what the Americans (in Europe) and the Luftwaffe did. And it wasn't just a reaction to prior German actions as is often claimed, but to a significant extent an outgrowth of pre-war RAF doctrine.

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson

    Dresden was a major center of rail communications as well as optics production. At the time there was growing frustration that seemingly nothing would end the war, and at least in America there was a growing problem with desertion and resistance to conscription. The late war bombings (not just of Dresden) seem very cruel in retrospect, but every day the war continued meant more Allied casualties. Late war raids were also effective in their intended effects. In the early spring of 1945 the Anglo-American bombing campaign for instance caused the complete collapse of the German rail system.

    It wasn’t until well into 1942 that Britain adopted “dehousing” and area bombing as official doctrine of Bomber Command. This largely emerged in response to the wild inaccuracy of night bombing, which itself was an improvisation in response to the fact that daylight raids into occupied Europe resulted in unacceptably high attrition.

    Early in the war all the belligerents largely abided by President Roosevelt’s request to limit bombing to military targets, and even attacking civilian industrial targets in Germany was not permitted (against the wishes of Bomber Command) until the Rotterdam Blitz.

    Germany for its part didn’t initiate large scale bombing of civilian areas (Rotterdam was not intended) until the British bombed Berlin.

    There was actually a very good German heavy bomber (Heinkel 177 Greif), but it was not produced in substantial numbers and had significant teething problems owing to the failure of German high output aero engine development. These failures were themselves the outgrowth of doctrine (heavy bomber was not a priority) and then the exigencies of war (close support and interdiction on the Eastern Front, fighter defenses for the Reich).

    America did refuse to switch to “area bombing”, but shouldn’t be considered as some kind of humane strategic bombing force. Only the lead bomber used precision targeting, as all other bombers had to fly in defensive box organizations for protection from German fighters. The weather was frequently overcast as well, which obviously precluded visual target identification.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @Thorfinnsson


    Dresden was a major center of rail communications as well as optics production.
     
    I know that argument, but even if it were valid for Dresden (and I'm unconvinced), it still leaves lots of other attacks which are difficult to rationalize imo. I doubt there is much of a purely military justification for something like the bombing of Pforzheim (proportionally the worst in the war, since it killed almost a fifth of Pforzheim's population) on February 23 1945, which is why the debate in the end always gets shifted to a different plane like arguing that it was just punishment for Nazism (which I find a dubious argument for many reasons...even if one regards all Germans at the time as equally guilty and deserving of death, there's still the substantial number of foreign forced labourers and pows killed by bombing).
    Anyway, my intention was merely to point out one of the reasons why the topic is so emotional, I'm not in favour of a cult of German victimhood about WW2 bombing and find right-wingers who build up Dresden into some huge symbol and use inflated numbers of deaths rather foolish.

    In the early spring of 1945 the Anglo-American bombing campaign for instance caused the complete collapse of the German rail system.
     
    My impression had been that this was more due to American daylight bombing which specifically targeted communications and transport infrastructure than to the more indiscriminate British effort.
    I'm in agreement with the rest of your comment.

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson, @LondonBob

  265. German_reader says:
    @Thorfinnsson
    @German_reader

    Dresden was a major center of rail communications as well as optics production. At the time there was growing frustration that seemingly nothing would end the war, and at least in America there was a growing problem with desertion and resistance to conscription. The late war bombings (not just of Dresden) seem very cruel in retrospect, but every day the war continued meant more Allied casualties. Late war raids were also effective in their intended effects. In the early spring of 1945 the Anglo-American bombing campaign for instance caused the complete collapse of the German rail system.

    It wasn't until well into 1942 that Britain adopted "dehousing" and area bombing as official doctrine of Bomber Command. This largely emerged in response to the wild inaccuracy of night bombing, which itself was an improvisation in response to the fact that daylight raids into occupied Europe resulted in unacceptably high attrition.

    Early in the war all the belligerents largely abided by President Roosevelt's request to limit bombing to military targets, and even attacking civilian industrial targets in Germany was not permitted (against the wishes of Bomber Command) until the Rotterdam Blitz.

    Germany for its part didn't initiate large scale bombing of civilian areas (Rotterdam was not intended) until the British bombed Berlin.

    There was actually a very good German heavy bomber (Heinkel 177 Greif), but it was not produced in substantial numbers and had significant teething problems owing to the failure of German high output aero engine development. These failures were themselves the outgrowth of doctrine (heavy bomber was not a priority) and then the exigencies of war (close support and interdiction on the Eastern Front, fighter defenses for the Reich).

    America did refuse to switch to "area bombing", but shouldn't be considered as some kind of humane strategic bombing force. Only the lead bomber used precision targeting, as all other bombers had to fly in defensive box organizations for protection from German fighters. The weather was frequently overcast as well, which obviously precluded visual target identification.

    Replies: @German_reader

    Dresden was a major center of rail communications as well as optics production.

    I know that argument, but even if it were valid for Dresden (and I’m unconvinced), it still leaves lots of other attacks which are difficult to rationalize imo. I doubt there is much of a purely military justification for something like the bombing of Pforzheim (proportionally the worst in the war, since it killed almost a fifth of Pforzheim’s population) on February 23 1945, which is why the debate in the end always gets shifted to a different plane like arguing that it was just punishment for Nazism (which I find a dubious argument for many reasons…even if one regards all Germans at the time as equally guilty and deserving of death, there’s still the substantial number of foreign forced labourers and pows killed by bombing).
    Anyway, my intention was merely to point out one of the reasons why the topic is so emotional, I’m not in favour of a cult of German victimhood about WW2 bombing and find right-wingers who build up Dresden into some huge symbol and use inflated numbers of deaths rather foolish.

    In the early spring of 1945 the Anglo-American bombing campaign for instance caused the complete collapse of the German rail system.

    My impression had been that this was more due to American daylight bombing which specifically targeted communications and transport infrastructure than to the more indiscriminate British effort.
    I’m in agreement with the rest of your comment.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    @German_reader

    Once the decision was made to bomb civilian industry with level bombers at high altitude massive civilian casualties were inescapable. I doubt that anyone in the USAAF actually believed the nonsense about a Norden bombsight being able to put a 500 pound bomb in a pickle barrel from 20,000 feet, though I suppose they believed in all other sorts of nonsense so who knows.

    Pforzheim was both a manufacturing and logistics center. I don't believe Bomber Command was aware of what was being produced there, but lots of shell fuzes were manufactured there.

    That said, since just about all economic activity supported the German war effort, one could contrive a military justification for bombing just about anything. The Allies could've deliberately bombed grain silos or even hospitals with military justification. They would've had to machine gun pensioners to do something without a military benefit (and no doubt you'd find people to justify that on morale grounds).

    Bomber Command was also part of the effective campaign against the German transportation network. Many viaducts, tunnels, and bridges were attacked by Lancasters dropping Grand Slam bombs which could not be employed by American bombers.

    , @LondonBob
    @German_reader

    The 'Dehousing' policy was the brainchild of Frederick Lindemann, similarly Morgenthau was advocating the Morgenthau plan for Germany in the Roosevelt administration.

    As for recognising the bomber crews I oppose, that generation knew best and I find it a sad reflection of today's society that we know better and that we lack the morality to understand why this was a contentious issue.

  266. @German_reader
    @Thorfinnsson


    Dresden was a major center of rail communications as well as optics production.
     
    I know that argument, but even if it were valid for Dresden (and I'm unconvinced), it still leaves lots of other attacks which are difficult to rationalize imo. I doubt there is much of a purely military justification for something like the bombing of Pforzheim (proportionally the worst in the war, since it killed almost a fifth of Pforzheim's population) on February 23 1945, which is why the debate in the end always gets shifted to a different plane like arguing that it was just punishment for Nazism (which I find a dubious argument for many reasons...even if one regards all Germans at the time as equally guilty and deserving of death, there's still the substantial number of foreign forced labourers and pows killed by bombing).
    Anyway, my intention was merely to point out one of the reasons why the topic is so emotional, I'm not in favour of a cult of German victimhood about WW2 bombing and find right-wingers who build up Dresden into some huge symbol and use inflated numbers of deaths rather foolish.

    In the early spring of 1945 the Anglo-American bombing campaign for instance caused the complete collapse of the German rail system.
     
    My impression had been that this was more due to American daylight bombing which specifically targeted communications and transport infrastructure than to the more indiscriminate British effort.
    I'm in agreement with the rest of your comment.

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson, @LondonBob

    Once the decision was made to bomb civilian industry with level bombers at high altitude massive civilian casualties were inescapable. I doubt that anyone in the USAAF actually believed the nonsense about a Norden bombsight being able to put a 500 pound bomb in a pickle barrel from 20,000 feet, though I suppose they believed in all other sorts of nonsense so who knows.

    Pforzheim was both a manufacturing and logistics center. I don’t believe Bomber Command was aware of what was being produced there, but lots of shell fuzes were manufactured there.

    That said, since just about all economic activity supported the German war effort, one could contrive a military justification for bombing just about anything. The Allies could’ve deliberately bombed grain silos or even hospitals with military justification. They would’ve had to machine gun pensioners to do something without a military benefit (and no doubt you’d find people to justify that on morale grounds).

    Bomber Command was also part of the effective campaign against the German transportation network. Many viaducts, tunnels, and bridges were attacked by Lancasters dropping Grand Slam bombs which could not be employed by American bombers.

  267. @German_reader
    @Thorfinnsson


    Dresden was a major center of rail communications as well as optics production.
     
    I know that argument, but even if it were valid for Dresden (and I'm unconvinced), it still leaves lots of other attacks which are difficult to rationalize imo. I doubt there is much of a purely military justification for something like the bombing of Pforzheim (proportionally the worst in the war, since it killed almost a fifth of Pforzheim's population) on February 23 1945, which is why the debate in the end always gets shifted to a different plane like arguing that it was just punishment for Nazism (which I find a dubious argument for many reasons...even if one regards all Germans at the time as equally guilty and deserving of death, there's still the substantial number of foreign forced labourers and pows killed by bombing).
    Anyway, my intention was merely to point out one of the reasons why the topic is so emotional, I'm not in favour of a cult of German victimhood about WW2 bombing and find right-wingers who build up Dresden into some huge symbol and use inflated numbers of deaths rather foolish.

    In the early spring of 1945 the Anglo-American bombing campaign for instance caused the complete collapse of the German rail system.
     
    My impression had been that this was more due to American daylight bombing which specifically targeted communications and transport infrastructure than to the more indiscriminate British effort.
    I'm in agreement with the rest of your comment.

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson, @LondonBob

    The ‘Dehousing’ policy was the brainchild of Frederick Lindemann, similarly Morgenthau was advocating the Morgenthau plan for Germany in the Roosevelt administration.

    As for recognising the bomber crews I oppose, that generation knew best and I find it a sad reflection of today’s society that we know better and that we lack the morality to understand why this was a contentious issue.

  268. Thousands were evacuated in New Zealand over the horrible threat posed by an alleged far right tattoo. Security personnel quickly defused the danger by evacuating all and then establishing that the tattoo was just a normal ordinary tattoo. Incredibly, all involved survived.

    https://i.stuff.co.nz/national/111507831/wellingtons-homegrown-festival-reportedly-evacuated

  269. In the meantime, to the great surprise of the Hungarian public, the Hungarian national football team is still very far from the European elite. Among the five sides in our group (Croatia, Wales, Slovakia, Hungary, Azerbaijan), Hungary is easily the fourth by any metric. But for some reason people got extremely disappointed when we failed to beat the much stronger Slovak side. I don’t know what will happen now that the Croats are going to beat us without even trying too hard. Apparently many people were expecting some kind of miracle.

    EDIT: miracles might be possible? We just equalized.

    • Replies: @Epigon
    @reiner Tor

    Croatia’s overrated. Ridiculous amount of luck on WC, from Argentina game all the way through 0 victories in knock-0ut phases during regular game time. 2 penalty shootouts, one overtime win (vs. England), and avoided Brazil and Belgium in the draw.

    Replies: @reiner Tor

  270. Not a great surprise, I imagine. Who will be next?

    Romania announces plans to move embassy to Jerusalem

    Romanian Prime Minister Viorica Dăncilă announced plans Sunday to relocate her nation’s embassy in Israel from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem, following a similar announcement by Honduran President Juan Orlando Hernandez.

    Speaking at the annual American Israel Public Affairs Committee conference in Washington DC Sunday morning, Dăncilă said that her government would relocate Romania’s embassy to the Israeli capital city.

    “I am pleased to announce today, in front of this AIPAC audience…I as Prime Minster of Romania, and the government that I run, will move our embassy to Jerusalem, the capital of the State of Israel.”

    “I can promise you this: Romania will remain the same loyal friend and the strongest European voice in support of the Jewish people and the State of Israel.”

    Education Minister Naftali Bennett (New Right) thanked the Romanian premier, tweeting that her announcement “warmed our hearts”.

    • Replies: @Mitleser
    @for-the-record


    Speaking at the annual American Israel Public Affairs Committee conference in Washington DC Sunday morning, Dăncilă said that her government would relocate Romania’s embassy to the Israeli capital city.

    “I am pleased to announce today, in front of this AIPAC audience…I as Prime Minster of Romania, and the government that I run, will move our embassy to Jerusalem, the capital of the State of Israel.”
     
    WTH? What is a European top politician doing there?

    Replies: @Mitleser

  271. @for-the-record
    Not a great surprise, I imagine. Who will be next?

    Romania announces plans to move embassy to Jerusalem

    Romanian Prime Minister Viorica Dăncilă announced plans Sunday to relocate her nation’s embassy in Israel from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem, following a similar announcement by Honduran President Juan Orlando Hernandez.

    Speaking at the annual American Israel Public Affairs Committee conference in Washington DC Sunday morning, Dăncilă said that her government would relocate Romania’s embassy to the Israeli capital city.

    "I am pleased to announce today, in front of this AIPAC audience...I as Prime Minster of Romania, and the government that I run, will move our embassy to Jerusalem, the capital of the State of Israel."

    "I can promise you this: Romania will remain the same loyal friend and the strongest European voice in support of the Jewish people and the State of Israel."

    Education Minister Naftali Bennett (New Right) thanked the Romanian premier, tweeting that her announcement “warmed our hearts”.
     

    Replies: @Mitleser

    Speaking at the annual American Israel Public Affairs Committee conference in Washington DC Sunday morning, Dăncilă said that her government would relocate Romania’s embassy to the Israeli capital city.

    “I am pleased to announce today, in front of this AIPAC audience…I as Prime Minster of Romania, and the government that I run, will move our embassy to Jerusalem, the capital of the State of Israel.”

    WTH? What is a European top politician doing there?

    • Agree: songbird
    • Replies: @Mitleser
    @Mitleser

    Didn't expect Romania to be such a Zionist stronghold.


    Romania would become the first European Union country to make the move, which has already been done by the United States and Guatemala. The Prime Minister of Honduras and President of Cabo Verde also announced at the conference that they would open embassies in Jerusalem.

    Dăncilă, who also currently holds the rotating presidency of the EU Council, pledged to defend the Jewish state in the European Union.

    She also announced three new government initiatives: Citizenship for descendants of Jewish Romanians who were forced to renounce their citizenship when they left the country under the communist regime, a new compensation program for Holocaust survivors, and promising to open the government archives to specialists from the Federation of Jewish Communities in Romaina “in order to know the truth about their past during the two world wars.”
     
    Read more: https://forward.com/fast-forward/421411/romania-announces-it-will-move-embassy-to-jerusalem/

    Replies: @Mikhail

  272. @Mitleser
    @for-the-record


    Speaking at the annual American Israel Public Affairs Committee conference in Washington DC Sunday morning, Dăncilă said that her government would relocate Romania’s embassy to the Israeli capital city.

    “I am pleased to announce today, in front of this AIPAC audience…I as Prime Minster of Romania, and the government that I run, will move our embassy to Jerusalem, the capital of the State of Israel.”
     
    WTH? What is a European top politician doing there?

    Replies: @Mitleser

    Didn’t expect Romania to be such a Zionist stronghold.

    Romania would become the first European Union country to make the move, which has already been done by the United States and Guatemala. The Prime Minister of Honduras and President of Cabo Verde also announced at the conference that they would open embassies in Jerusalem.

    Dăncilă, who also currently holds the rotating presidency of the EU Council, pledged to defend the Jewish state in the European Union.

    She also announced three new government initiatives: Citizenship for descendants of Jewish Romanians who were forced to renounce their citizenship when they left the country under the communist regime, a new compensation program for Holocaust survivors, and promising to open the government archives to specialists from the Federation of Jewish Communities in Romaina “in order to know the truth about their past during the two world wars.”

    Read more: https://forward.com/fast-forward/421411/romania-announces-it-will-move-embassy-to-jerusalem/

    • Replies: @Mikhail
    @Mitleser

    It was the only Warsaw Pact nation which continued to have formal relations with the Jewish state after the 1967 Arab-Israeli War.

    Not that Romanians en masse are known for being particularly fond of Jews.

    Replies: @Dmitry

  273. @reiner Tor
    In the meantime, to the great surprise of the Hungarian public, the Hungarian national football team is still very far from the European elite. Among the five sides in our group (Croatia, Wales, Slovakia, Hungary, Azerbaijan), Hungary is easily the fourth by any metric. But for some reason people got extremely disappointed when we failed to beat the much stronger Slovak side. I don’t know what will happen now that the Croats are going to beat us without even trying too hard. Apparently many people were expecting some kind of miracle.

    EDIT: miracles might be possible? We just equalized.

    Replies: @Epigon

    Croatia’s overrated. Ridiculous amount of luck on WC, from Argentina game all the way through 0 victories in knock-0ut phases during regular game time. 2 penalty shootouts, one overtime win (vs. England), and avoided Brazil and Belgium in the draw.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @Epigon

    It certainly appears so, based on today’s match.

  274. @Epigon
    @reiner Tor

    Croatia’s overrated. Ridiculous amount of luck on WC, from Argentina game all the way through 0 victories in knock-0ut phases during regular game time. 2 penalty shootouts, one overtime win (vs. England), and avoided Brazil and Belgium in the draw.

    Replies: @reiner Tor

    It certainly appears so, based on today’s match.

  275. @Mitleser
    @Mitleser

    Didn't expect Romania to be such a Zionist stronghold.


    Romania would become the first European Union country to make the move, which has already been done by the United States and Guatemala. The Prime Minister of Honduras and President of Cabo Verde also announced at the conference that they would open embassies in Jerusalem.

    Dăncilă, who also currently holds the rotating presidency of the EU Council, pledged to defend the Jewish state in the European Union.

    She also announced three new government initiatives: Citizenship for descendants of Jewish Romanians who were forced to renounce their citizenship when they left the country under the communist regime, a new compensation program for Holocaust survivors, and promising to open the government archives to specialists from the Federation of Jewish Communities in Romaina “in order to know the truth about their past during the two world wars.”
     
    Read more: https://forward.com/fast-forward/421411/romania-announces-it-will-move-embassy-to-jerusalem/

    Replies: @Mikhail

    It was the only Warsaw Pact nation which continued to have formal relations with the Jewish state after the 1967 Arab-Israeli War.

    Not that Romanians en masse are known for being particularly fond of Jews.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @Mikhail

    Romania has externally a very Christian identity (although probably not very religious in reality?), so I guess Israel/Palestine would probably have some symbolic significance there.

    Also Israel has guest worker programs with Romania. So a lot of cleaners, carers of old people, and workers with jobs like constructing roads in Israel, are legal Romanian immigrants which were longtime guestworkers in Israel - probably more from the 1990s when Romania was not in the EU.

    Replies: @Mikhail

  276. Pozzed Leipzig Book Fair 2019

    At the Sino-Russian periphery of Hall 4

  277. @Hyperborean
    @Dmitry


    For example, in this forum, almost everyone said they oppose the New Zealand Mosque attack.

    But in the Russian internet – at least popular websites I read – most commentators supported attack on the Mosque New Zealand, and people were getting hundreds of upvotes for supporting it.
     

    There are a lot of indifferent people in other parts of the English internet, though, such as the chan forums and Breitbart.


    https://dailystormer.name/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/Screen-Shot-2019-03-15-at-6.42.39-AM.png

    Total amount of upvotes would probably also be even higher if the deleted comments on Breitbart are included.

    https://dailystormer.name/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/Screen-Shot-2019-03-15-at-6.50.52-AM.png

    Probably good that they aren't directly saying they deserved it, even though it might be a bit on the line anyway. There are lot of people getting arrested for being too enthusiastic and open about their opinions in places like the UK.

    Replies: @Hyperborean, @Dmitry

    Those comments are not supporting the attack though.

    Also Breitbart is a website, which is very critical of Muslim immigration.

    Breitbart website is semi-Israeli American, and was possibly established in Netanyahu’s office? at least I read an article there suggesting that.

    In any case, Breitbart not representative of normal English speaking netizens.

    I felt like the internet culture clash, was very large on that topic. Most commentators on some liberal, educated, websites I read, were supporting the attack and joking about the video. .

  278. @Mikhail
    @Mitleser

    It was the only Warsaw Pact nation which continued to have formal relations with the Jewish state after the 1967 Arab-Israeli War.

    Not that Romanians en masse are known for being particularly fond of Jews.

    Replies: @Dmitry

    Romania has externally a very Christian identity (although probably not very religious in reality?), so I guess Israel/Palestine would probably have some symbolic significance there.

    Also Israel has guest worker programs with Romania. So a lot of cleaners, carers of old people, and workers with jobs like constructing roads in Israel, are legal Romanian immigrants which were longtime guestworkers in Israel – probably more from the 1990s when Romania was not in the EU.

    • Replies: @Mikhail
    @Dmitry


    Romania has externally a very Christian identity (although probably not very religious in reality?), so I guess Israel/Palestine would probably have some symbolic significance there.

    Also Israel has guest worker programs with Romania. So a lot of cleaners, carers of old people, and workers with jobs like constructing roads in Israel, are legal Romanian immigrants which were longtime guestworkers in Israel – probably more from the 1990s when Romania was not in the EU.

     

    A good number of Jews with roots in Romania, combined with my earlier point on Romania being the only Warsaw Pact country to not break diplomatic relations with the Jewish state, after the start of the 1967 Arab-Israeli War.

    Ceaușescu was somewhat of a foreign policy Titoist. Recall Romania being the only Warsaw Pact country to attend the 1984 LA Summer Olympics. At the height of the Sino-Soviet dispute, a high level Chinese delegation visited Romania and Yugoslavia.

    The announced Romanian recognition regarding Jerusalem seems like a calculated attempt to curry greater favor with the US and Israel - with the belief that any backlash will be limited.

    Replies: @Dmitry

  279. @LatW
    @German_reader

    Agree on diversity.

    Btw - and I certainly don't want to take sides as far as Poles, Czechs and Germans are concerned - but have you seen the German girl on Czech border video? It's called 1945 Lost German woman on Youtube. I've watched it many times out of morbid curiosity, she's got such familiar features and so beautiful despite of what happened to her.

    Oh, and the "liberators" did a "great" job with Wilhelm Gustloff, drowning German and Latvian children - collatoral damage I guess it's what it's called.

    May we all be forgiven for what we do.

    Replies: @Dmitry

    May we all be forgiven for what we do.

    What is your view about allegations – perhaps exaggerated – saying there is an “apartheid system” in Latvia today?

    • Replies: @Adam
    @Dmitry

    I'm not exactly sympathetic to Latvia, but Russians in the Baltics should learn the local languages, which I believe is the main barrier to citizenship.

    Apartheid was a good thing by the way.

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @Konstantin, @anonymous coward

  280. @Matra
    It's interesting how AP shits so much on Anglo countries for their role in defeating Nazi Germany. His fellow Ukrainians in Canada, who missed out on communism, the Holodomor, and WW2 thanks to Anglo-Canadian generosity, spent most of the last century LEADING the campaign to demoralise and delegitimise the very existence of Anglo-Saxon Canada. Apparently Ukrainians in Australia were also big proponents of turning Australia from an Anglo to a multiculti society. There seems to be a pattern here.

    I really hope AP is just a typical no-skin-in-the-game diaspora nationalist (the worst kind of nationalist, no matter the nationality) because I had a good time in Lviv in January and I'd hate to think the locals, who seemed so nice, are privately as filled with hatred towards every other nationality as he is.

    Just out of curiosity AP would you agree that the recent dispute between Ukraine and Hungary was entirely the fault of the Hungarians?

    Replies: @AP

    It’s interesting how AP shits so much on Anglo countries for their role in defeating Nazi Germany.

    All I did was state that the deliberate targeting and bombing of German civilians areas was a crime.

    Are you suggesting that this terror bombing characterized the Anglo-American role in defeating Germany? I wouldn’t.

    His fellow Ukrainians in Canada, who missed out on communism, the Holodomor, and WW2 thanks to Anglo-Canadian generosity, spent most of the last century LEADING the campaign to demoralise and delegitimise the very existence of Anglo-Saxon Canada.

    Look to the UK to see what Canada would have been like without Ukrainians, Italians, Greeks, Portuguese, Poles, Hungarians etc. Unfortunately, the Anglo-Saxons specialize in getting themselves replaced by Pakistanis and Nigerians. I guess Canadian ones left to their own devices would take in Jamaicans also.

    You should be grateful that thanks to Ukrainians and those like them, Canada is still nearly 80% of European origin.

    Apparently Ukrainians in Australia were also big proponents of turning Australia from an Anglo to a multiculti society

    There were about 30,000 of them in Australia. If you think they impacted anything there..

    because I had a good time in Lviv in January and I’d hate to think the locals, who seemed so nice, are privately as filled with hatred towards every other nationality as he is.

    LOL. I stated it was a crime to bomb civilians. To you this makes me “full of hatred towards every other nationality.” Paranoia.

    • Replies: @Adam
    @AP

    Canada is undergoing an extremely rapid demographic transformation. It will become majority non-white.

    The prescence of peripheral Europeans has nothing to do with immigration policy. Just because Poles in Poland don't like immigration doesn't mean that they form some kind of anti-immigration bloc in the diaspora.

    Peripheral Europeans don't have some right to societies built by Northern Europeans. They're decent people, but they can't exactly build the kind of societies Northern Europeans do, not to mention the whole Euromutt phenomenon is damaging to any kind of rooted identity. Even as a Russophile I feel ambivalent hearing Russian in the street in a city built by Germans and Scandinavians, that should have been left to their descendants. But of course there are more pressing matters now.

    Replies: @AP

    , @DFH
    @AP


    Look to the UK to see what Canada would have been like without Ukrainians, Italians, Greeks, Portuguese, Poles, Hungarians etc.
     
    Canada is worse than Britain though

    Replies: @Mitleser

  281. @Dmitry
    @Mikhail

    Romania has externally a very Christian identity (although probably not very religious in reality?), so I guess Israel/Palestine would probably have some symbolic significance there.

    Also Israel has guest worker programs with Romania. So a lot of cleaners, carers of old people, and workers with jobs like constructing roads in Israel, are legal Romanian immigrants which were longtime guestworkers in Israel - probably more from the 1990s when Romania was not in the EU.

    Replies: @Mikhail

    Romania has externally a very Christian identity (although probably not very religious in reality?), so I guess Israel/Palestine would probably have some symbolic significance there.

    Also Israel has guest worker programs with Romania. So a lot of cleaners, carers of old people, and workers with jobs like constructing roads in Israel, are legal Romanian immigrants which were longtime guestworkers in Israel – probably more from the 1990s when Romania was not in the EU.

    A good number of Jews with roots in Romania, combined with my earlier point on Romania being the only Warsaw Pact country to not break diplomatic relations with the Jewish state, after the start of the 1967 Arab-Israeli War.

    Ceaușescu was somewhat of a foreign policy Titoist. Recall Romania being the only Warsaw Pact country to attend the 1984 LA Summer Olympics. At the height of the Sino-Soviet dispute, a high level Chinese delegation visited Romania and Yugoslavia.

    The announced Romanian recognition regarding Jerusalem seems like a calculated attempt to curry greater favor with the US and Israel – with the belief that any backlash will be limited.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @Mikhail

    There is also lot of tourism from Romania to Israel (mainly pilgrims, because Romania is externally quite a Christian country).

    In per capita terms, I believe Ukrainians and Romanians are probably the most frequent visitors to Israel of any countries in the world. (Ukrainians are the most frequent tourists to Israel per capita, but I am not interested enough to do the actual calculations).

    Number of total tourists to Israel by country ranked for 2018 was something like.

    1. USA
    2. Russia
    3. France
    4. Ukraine
    5. Germany
    6. UK
    7. China
    8 Romania
    9. Poland

    Replies: @Dmitry, @Mikhail

  282. A little late to respond Karlin,but I would recommend getting a used gtx 1070 (roughly equivalent performance to those 2 cards) or even a gtx 1080 if you felt like an upgrade. There probably should still be some stock of used cards that were used in Mining. Normally mining cards, despite being used 24/7 are actually undervolted and underclocked to maximize efficiency per watt so they actually have less issues that normal used cards which go through larger thermal cycles of gameplay running them hot and cooling down. If your friend could scavenge those other parts, surely he can dig up a used gtx 10 series card, though this would depend on the pricing dynamics of used cards in Russia.

    The rtx 20 series is a giant waste of money, as the price/performance ratio was a big step sideways compared to the previous gen as the useless die space taken up by dedicated ray tracing is going to waste. For anyone else considering upgrading, I would hold off until the 10/7nm cards show up later this year or the start of next. Considering how moore’s law is basically over now, the next and last likely die shrink isnt coming until 2025 so you will be set for a long time with the upcoming generation.

  283. @German_reader
    @songbird


    Ukrainians are actually doing a pretty good job.
     
    I don't know, does anybody really go on much about the Holodomor narrative except alt-righters, who are only interested in it because they blame it on Jews? Some mainstream historians like Timothy Snyder may allude to parts of it, but that is transparently motivated by anti-Russian animus. On its own, the Ukrainian famine isn't that interesting to most people.

    Hindus are failing hilariously
     
    Who did supposedly genocide them? Mahmud of Ghazni? Aurangzeb? Churchill? Well, that wasn't very successful then, since there are still so many Hindus around.

    I agree with you about use of the term "genocide", in a way it's another manifestation of the sickening glorification of victimhood prevalent in Western societies today.

    Replies: @songbird

    Pakistan has several missiles with names that must irritate Indians. Ghaznavi, Babur, Ghauri. They can also be designated by using “Hatf” (the name of Muhammad’s sword or lance) and a number.

    One of their longer range missiles is named “Abadeel” which means “swallow .”. But even that is thought to be a closeted reference to India, since it is thought to refer to birds who supposedly dropped stones on war elephants threatening the Kaaba in pre-Islamic times.

    Too bad that Britain doesn’t have Churchill tanks anymore, but maybe that would only get the goat of Indians and not Pakis. Maybe, they could name some weapon after Cecil Rhodes, closeted gay though he was, to annoy Africans.

  284. @Mikhail
    @Dmitry


    Romania has externally a very Christian identity (although probably not very religious in reality?), so I guess Israel/Palestine would probably have some symbolic significance there.

    Also Israel has guest worker programs with Romania. So a lot of cleaners, carers of old people, and workers with jobs like constructing roads in Israel, are legal Romanian immigrants which were longtime guestworkers in Israel – probably more from the 1990s when Romania was not in the EU.

     

    A good number of Jews with roots in Romania, combined with my earlier point on Romania being the only Warsaw Pact country to not break diplomatic relations with the Jewish state, after the start of the 1967 Arab-Israeli War.

    Ceaușescu was somewhat of a foreign policy Titoist. Recall Romania being the only Warsaw Pact country to attend the 1984 LA Summer Olympics. At the height of the Sino-Soviet dispute, a high level Chinese delegation visited Romania and Yugoslavia.

    The announced Romanian recognition regarding Jerusalem seems like a calculated attempt to curry greater favor with the US and Israel - with the belief that any backlash will be limited.

    Replies: @Dmitry

    There is also lot of tourism from Romania to Israel (mainly pilgrims, because Romania is externally quite a Christian country).

    In per capita terms, I believe Ukrainians and Romanians are probably the most frequent visitors to Israel of any countries in the world. (Ukrainians are the most frequent tourists to Israel per capita, but I am not interested enough to do the actual calculations).

    Number of total tourists to Israel by country ranked for 2018 was something like.

    1. USA
    2. Russia
    3. France
    4. Ukraine
    5. Germany
    6. UK
    7. China
    8 Romania
    9. Poland

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @Dmitry


    In per capita terms, I believe Ukrainians and Romanians are probably the most frequent visitors to Israel of any countries in the world. (Ukrainians are the most frequent tourists to Israel per capita, but I am not interested enough to do the actual calculations).
     
    ^Sorry ignore this comment, it is nonsense.

    Highest per capita nationality who are visiting Israel by far are Lithuanians. Then Swiss, Romanians and Ukrainians, will be around the same level, behind Lithuanians.

    , @Mikhail
    @Dmitry

    A follow-up asks a % breakdown of Jews and non-Jews from each of these countries?

  285. @Dmitry
    @Mikhail

    There is also lot of tourism from Romania to Israel (mainly pilgrims, because Romania is externally quite a Christian country).

    In per capita terms, I believe Ukrainians and Romanians are probably the most frequent visitors to Israel of any countries in the world. (Ukrainians are the most frequent tourists to Israel per capita, but I am not interested enough to do the actual calculations).

    Number of total tourists to Israel by country ranked for 2018 was something like.

    1. USA
    2. Russia
    3. France
    4. Ukraine
    5. Germany
    6. UK
    7. China
    8 Romania
    9. Poland

    Replies: @Dmitry, @Mikhail

    In per capita terms, I believe Ukrainians and Romanians are probably the most frequent visitors to Israel of any countries in the world. (Ukrainians are the most frequent tourists to Israel per capita, but I am not interested enough to do the actual calculations).

    ^Sorry ignore this comment, it is nonsense.

    Highest per capita nationality who are visiting Israel by far are Lithuanians. Then Swiss, Romanians and Ukrainians, will be around the same level, behind Lithuanians.

  286. @German_reader
    @Denis


    In the years preceding the war, the treatment of Germans in the Soviet Union was a clear precedent for the fate that would eventually befall them throughout Eastern Europe.
     
    I'm not sure though how important ethnic considerations were for repression of Germans in the Soviet Union before WW2, much of it may rather have been class-based...wealthy, religious peasants were seen as enemies by the communists in general, no matter their ethnic origin.
    I'm somewhat opposed to over-use of the term "genocide" in general, because often it's merely used as a polemical attempt meant to evoke associations with the Nazi genocide of the Jews (which was a fairly distinctive, possibly singular, event that isn't easily paralleled). But of course the legal definition is somewhat different...since there are claims of a "Bosnian genocide" during the Balkan wars in the 1990s, maybe one could make similar claims about the post-war expulsions. I doubt though that it would elucidate the issue or contribute anything positive to Polish-German relations.

    Replies: @Denis

    I’m not sure though how important ethnic considerations were for repression of Germans in the Soviet Union before WW2, much of it may rather have been class-based…wealthy, religious peasants were seen as enemies by the communists in general, no matter their ethnic origin.

    I will quote Solzhenitsyn here:

    “Then there was the wave of Germans-Germans living on the Volga, colonists in the Ukraine and the North Caucasus, and all Germans in general who lived anywhere in the Soviet Union. The determining factor here was blood, and even heroes in the Civil War and old members of the Party were sent off into exile”

    From “The Gulag Archipelago”, pg. 78, volume 1.

    This seems to be referring to the period before 1941.

    I’m somewhat opposed to over-use of the term “genocide” in general, because often it’s merely used as a polemical attempt meant to evoke associations with the Nazi genocide of the Jews

    Agree

    (which was a fairly distinctive, possibly singular, event that isn’t easily paralleled)

    Disagree, it seems to me that both the Armenian genocide and the treatment of the Germans at the hands of the communist regimes are easily comparable to the holocaust in both scale and nature.

    I doubt though that it would elucidate the issue or contribute anything positive to Polish-German relations.

    I agree with you that re-litigating the issue is pointless, and it isn’t my intention to do so. I’m definitely not arguing this point due to revanchism. However, I still don’t really see how it (the abuses and deportations of the Germans) can be considered anything other than a massive crime.

  287. For future reference, does anyone know of good bookstores for history, literature, etc. books in London?

    I usually just buy books at Waterstones and Foyles when I am there, but I would like to know if there is a interesting selection of books somewhere that I have missed.

    • Replies: @Pericles
    @Hyperborean

    Waterstones bought up most of the old giants, but the stores are still around.

    Apart from Foyle's, I've always enjoyed Hatchards (very near Fortnum & Masons), and also recommend a visit to Waterstones Gower Street, near UCL. I'd also recommend looking through https://www.abebooks.co.uk/ and see if there are any interesting antiquarians to visit.

    Replies: @Dmitry, @Hyperborean

  288. @AP
    @Matra


    It’s interesting how AP shits so much on Anglo countries for their role in defeating Nazi Germany.
     
    All I did was state that the deliberate targeting and bombing of German civilians areas was a crime.

    Are you suggesting that this terror bombing characterized the Anglo-American role in defeating Germany? I wouldn't.

    His fellow Ukrainians in Canada, who missed out on communism, the Holodomor, and WW2 thanks to Anglo-Canadian generosity, spent most of the last century LEADING the campaign to demoralise and delegitimise the very existence of Anglo-Saxon Canada.
     
    Look to the UK to see what Canada would have been like without Ukrainians, Italians, Greeks, Portuguese, Poles, Hungarians etc. Unfortunately, the Anglo-Saxons specialize in getting themselves replaced by Pakistanis and Nigerians. I guess Canadian ones left to their own devices would take in Jamaicans also.

    You should be grateful that thanks to Ukrainians and those like them, Canada is still nearly 80% of European origin.

    Apparently Ukrainians in Australia were also big proponents of turning Australia from an Anglo to a multiculti society
     
    There were about 30,000 of them in Australia. If you think they impacted anything there..

    because I had a good time in Lviv in January and I’d hate to think the locals, who seemed so nice, are privately as filled with hatred towards every other nationality as he is.
     
    LOL. I stated it was a crime to bomb civilians. To you this makes me "full of hatred towards every other nationality." Paranoia.

    Replies: @Adam, @DFH

    Canada is undergoing an extremely rapid demographic transformation. It will become majority non-white.

    The prescence of peripheral Europeans has nothing to do with immigration policy. Just because Poles in Poland don’t like immigration doesn’t mean that they form some kind of anti-immigration bloc in the diaspora.

    Peripheral Europeans don’t have some right to societies built by Northern Europeans. They’re decent people, but they can’t exactly build the kind of societies Northern Europeans do, not to mention the whole Euromutt phenomenon is damaging to any kind of rooted identity. Even as a Russophile I feel ambivalent hearing Russian in the street in a city built by Germans and Scandinavians, that should have been left to their descendants. But of course there are more pressing matters now.

    • Replies: @AP
    @Adam


    Canada is undergoing an extremely rapid demographic transformation. It will become majority non-white.
     
    My point is that this process would have been much faster had Ukrainians, Italians and other non-Anglos not come to Canada en masse.

    The prescence of peripheral Europeans has nothing to do with immigration policy. Just because Poles in Poland don’t like immigration doesn’t mean that they form some kind of anti-immigration bloc in the diaspora.
     
    There is a diaspora Ukrainian in the current Canadian (Liberal) government however most Ukrainians vote Conservative in Canada and tend to oppose non-European immigration.

    Peripheral Europeans don’t have some right to societies built by Northern Europeans.
     
    On this, I agree. Canada was fairly unsettled when the Ukrainians arrived; they found virgin lands in the west and turned them into prosperous farms.

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson

  289. @Dmitry
    @LatW


    May we all be forgiven for what we do.

     

    What is your view about allegations - perhaps exaggerated - saying there is an "apartheid system" in Latvia today?

    Replies: @Adam

    I’m not exactly sympathetic to Latvia, but Russians in the Baltics should learn the local languages, which I believe is the main barrier to citizenship.

    Apartheid was a good thing by the way.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @Adam

    The other barrier is that many already have Russian passports. Again, the comparison to apartheid is pretty dubious.

    Replies: @Hyperborean

    , @Konstantin
    @Adam

    They shouldn't as they started to settle in the area pretty much at the same time as latvians

    Replies: @LatW

    , @anonymous coward
    @Adam


    Russians in the Baltics should learn the local languages
     
    Russian is a local Baltic language.

    E.g., The city known as 'Tartu' was founded in 1030 by (the Russian ruler) Yaroslav I under the name of 'Yuryev'.

    The Baltic ethnicities and countries really only exist thanks to Russian magnanimity.
  290. @Adam
    @Dmitry

    I'm not exactly sympathetic to Latvia, but Russians in the Baltics should learn the local languages, which I believe is the main barrier to citizenship.

    Apartheid was a good thing by the way.

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @Konstantin, @anonymous coward

    The other barrier is that many already have Russian passports. Again, the comparison to apartheid is pretty dubious.

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
    @reiner Tor


    The other barrier is that many already have Russian passports. Again, the comparison to apartheid is pretty dubious.

     

    Seems this is not quite accurate.

    From wikipedia, which cites the 2017 Latvian government statistics:

    Citizens of Latvia (1,788,710) - 84.48%

    Non-citizens of Latvia (237,759) - 11.23%

    Citizens of Russia (54,998) - 2.60%

    Others, mainly citizens of other countries (35,916) - 1.70%
     
    Latvian Non-citizens have 90 days within 180 days Schengen visa and Russian visa and then a few Latin American and other minor countries.

    Latvian citizens in contrast have access to over 150-ish countries if one excludes the Schengen region.

    Estonian non-citizens have similar limited visa access as Latvian non-citizens.

    Estonian Non-citizens are around 6-8% of the population (although it was 40% at independence), around an equal amount are citizens of foreign countries (mainly Russia, Belorussia and Ukraine). I don’t know many emigrated compared to being naturalised.

    After legal changes Non-citizen children born at independence in Estonia and Latvia are able to obtain citizenship.

    -----

    My own opinion is, if the Latvians and Estonians wish to solve their Russian problem then they should advocate for freedom for movement in Schengen area for non-citizens.

    I think many Baltic Russian-speakers would mind less if they were able to go to Germany.

    Replies: @LatW

  291. @Dmitry
    @reiner Tor

    Exactly - my point is your writings appeared autistic. The text appeared to be written by someone who has no understanding of the people he is assigning motives to (or people in general).

    Therefore, the recent projections you made where you were calling people like myself, who didn't share your political opinions, "autistic normies". It is an interesting contradiction of terms, as "normies" is the term used by people with autistic spectrum disorders to refer to non-autistic people.

    I think part of this is just reading too much "evolutionary psychology" books. But part of it is obviously a theory of mind.

    Here you believe view that peoples' ideologies are based in racial self-interest, and that this racial interest can result in complicated longterm conspiracies.

    But then you are confused that Bolshevik Jews still supporting the USSR in the 1950s, when supporting USSR was not "aligned with Jewish racial interests".

    You then mention confusion that their ideologies go against racial self-interest, and attribute this to their "stupidity" (you can re-read your post) or lack of conspiracy skills.

    I needn't add the obvious fact, that Bolshevik Jews were still supporting the USSR in the 1950s, because and to the extent they were still Bolsheviks.

    Marx, himself wanted Jews to dissolve as a separate nationality, and believed the end of capitalism will make "Jews impossible".
    https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1844/jewish-question/index.htm

    Replies: @reiner Tor

    you were calling people like myself, who didn’t share your political opinions, “autistic normies”

    Why the plural? I only called you an autistic normie, did I call anyone else that?

    “normies” is the term used by people with autistic spectrum disorders to refer to non-autistic people.

    What?

    Regarding the rest.

    Obviously people tend to believe in things which are good for them. Minorities will believe that granting minority rights is morally superior to encouraging assimilation.

    People will explicitly use such utilitarian arguments, even if they have no relevance to the question at hand. For example religious people will often cite the numerous studies about religious people being happier, with more children, lower suicide rates, etc. Hungarian leftists regularly use arguments that multiculturalism would be good for the Hungarian minorities, who would benefit from minority rights etc.

    That’s not “cynicism.” People are not very self-aware, and they will sincerely believe in their ideologies. So poor people will sincerely believe in redistribution, and as they get richer, they will slowly tend to a belief in the magical powers of low taxes and free markets. There will certainly be a lag: people will keep their beliefs longer than they serve them. But they tend to beliefs which serve them. (More idealistic people less so. It’s a tendency, a stochastic rule.)

    Jews, of course, explicitly use the argument that multiculturalism is good for Jews. They will use it when arguing with non-Jews, which shows that they are not totally aware of the fact that it’s not really an argument, and for a gentile, it’s not even a fallacious pseudo-argument.

    Marx’s comments notwithstanding, Jews (a very large proportion of them) perceived Marxism and then Bolshevism to be good for Jews as an ethnic group. So they tended to move there. And objectively speaking, in the decade after 1917, Bolshevism was indeed beneficial to Soviet Jews. However, things changed. Jews in general still considered Bolshevism to be good for them well into the 1950s, by which time it was no longer the case.

    So, perception lagged reality. Ideologies have staying power. Who would have thought?

    Anyway, Jews tend to move to ideologies which they perceive to be good for them. They perceive ideologies to be good for them if they were objectively good for them in the recent past. There is some delay in perception, and ideologies have some staying power for a long time even beyond that, especially among the more committed adherents.

    I’m not sure it’s productive to continue this.

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
    @reiner Tor


    Marx’s comments notwithstanding, Jews (a very large proportion of them) perceived Marxism and then Bolshevism to be good for Jews as an ethnic group. So they tended to move there. And objectively speaking, in the decade after 1917, Bolshevism was indeed beneficial to Soviet Jews. However, things changed. Jews in general still considered Bolshevism to be good for them well into the 1950s, by which time it was no longer the case.

    So, perception lagged reality. Ideologies have staying power. Who would have thought?
     
    While there are a few decades during which there is a transition, I think it is notable that once they noticed many American Jewish "reformed" Bolshevists (typically Trotskyists) became the fiercest enemies of the Soviet Union (although I think the Soviet leadership was never quite able to completely grasp quite the extent of the ethnic element).
    , @Dmitry
    @reiner Tor


    Why the plural? I only called you an autistic normie, did I call anyone else that?

     

    I've seen you refer to yourself as this, which is a good sign, since it shows some self-awareness. Normie brain does not chase their own tail on endless strange conspiracy theories. This makes your comments entertaining, so when you start projecting and then attacking autism it seems like you are engaging in self-hatred.

    I like your comments generally, but you need people point out your blindspots and overliteralism.

    people tend to believe in things which are good for them.
     
    Of course, the ideologies can be more attractive to some demographics for this reason.

    But to reduce the reason people believed Marxism to "Jewish racial self-interest", is nonsense.
    You'll have to explain all non-Jews, from Engels or Lenin, or China, et al, had some separate reason for believing Marxism.

    If people believe everything for racial self-interest, why are there so many liberals today who want to punish their own races.

    Also there is the fact for Marxism, that Marxism wanted to dissolve Jews as a separate nationality, and was largely successful to do that where it was an official ideology. Moreover, Jews which believed Marxism, usually did not have group identity as Jews, and were effectively acolytes of a new religion. Marx himself had an attitude to Jews like Ron Unz on here.

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson, @reiner Tor

  292. @AP
    @Matra


    It’s interesting how AP shits so much on Anglo countries for their role in defeating Nazi Germany.
     
    All I did was state that the deliberate targeting and bombing of German civilians areas was a crime.

    Are you suggesting that this terror bombing characterized the Anglo-American role in defeating Germany? I wouldn't.

    His fellow Ukrainians in Canada, who missed out on communism, the Holodomor, and WW2 thanks to Anglo-Canadian generosity, spent most of the last century LEADING the campaign to demoralise and delegitimise the very existence of Anglo-Saxon Canada.
     
    Look to the UK to see what Canada would have been like without Ukrainians, Italians, Greeks, Portuguese, Poles, Hungarians etc. Unfortunately, the Anglo-Saxons specialize in getting themselves replaced by Pakistanis and Nigerians. I guess Canadian ones left to their own devices would take in Jamaicans also.

    You should be grateful that thanks to Ukrainians and those like them, Canada is still nearly 80% of European origin.

    Apparently Ukrainians in Australia were also big proponents of turning Australia from an Anglo to a multiculti society
     
    There were about 30,000 of them in Australia. If you think they impacted anything there..

    because I had a good time in Lviv in January and I’d hate to think the locals, who seemed so nice, are privately as filled with hatred towards every other nationality as he is.
     
    LOL. I stated it was a crime to bomb civilians. To you this makes me "full of hatred towards every other nationality." Paranoia.

    Replies: @Adam, @DFH

    Look to the UK to see what Canada would have been like without Ukrainians, Italians, Greeks, Portuguese, Poles, Hungarians etc.

    Canada is worse than Britain though

    • Replies: @Mitleser
    @DFH

    Anglo-Canada is a fake country.

    https://twitter.com/JoustPosting/status/1110037689322098688

    It should have been Britain's Siberia.

    http://www.highgatefleetsystems.com/wiki/images/c/c1/UnitedKingdomFlag.png

    Replies: @Hyperborean, @songbird

  293. @reiner Tor
    @Adam

    The other barrier is that many already have Russian passports. Again, the comparison to apartheid is pretty dubious.

    Replies: @Hyperborean

    The other barrier is that many already have Russian passports. Again, the comparison to apartheid is pretty dubious.

    Seems this is not quite accurate.

    From wikipedia, which cites the 2017 Latvian government statistics:

    Citizens of Latvia (1,788,710) – 84.48%

    Non-citizens of Latvia (237,759) – 11.23%

    Citizens of Russia (54,998) – 2.60%

    Others, mainly citizens of other countries (35,916) – 1.70%

    Latvian Non-citizens have 90 days within 180 days Schengen visa and Russian visa and then a few Latin American and other minor countries.

    Latvian citizens in contrast have access to over 150-ish countries if one excludes the Schengen region.

    Estonian non-citizens have similar limited visa access as Latvian non-citizens.

    Estonian Non-citizens are around 6-8% of the population (although it was 40% at independence), around an equal amount are citizens of foreign countries (mainly Russia, Belorussia and Ukraine). I don’t know many emigrated compared to being naturalised.

    After legal changes Non-citizen children born at independence in Estonia and Latvia are able to obtain citizenship.

    —–

    My own opinion is, if the Latvians and Estonians wish to solve their Russian problem then they should advocate for freedom for movement in Schengen area for non-citizens.

    I think many Baltic Russian-speakers would mind less if they were able to go to Germany.

    • Replies: @LatW
    @Hyperborean

    Well, maybe Western countries can straight up offer them residence?

    No, Germany is not in the cards for the remaining non-citizens as most of them are too attached to the Baltic states or neighboring countries like Belarus. Some of them deliberately do not take out the passport to be able to travel east without a visa to see their relatives. Those who wanted to go to the West already got the passport in 2004 (slightly questionable MO, lol, but ok, let's not nitpick). No, for them moving West doesn't make sense, they have their Russophone friend and family network, paid out apartments, they don't want to be uprooted, learn English, pay exorbitant rents in the West, forget it. Moving is not that easy past age 35 or so.

    Replies: @Hyperborean

  294. @reiner Tor
    @Dmitry


    you were calling people like myself, who didn’t share your political opinions, “autistic normies”
     
    Why the plural? I only called you an autistic normie, did I call anyone else that?

    “normies” is the term used by people with autistic spectrum disorders to refer to non-autistic people.
     
    What?

    Regarding the rest.

    Obviously people tend to believe in things which are good for them. Minorities will believe that granting minority rights is morally superior to encouraging assimilation.

    People will explicitly use such utilitarian arguments, even if they have no relevance to the question at hand. For example religious people will often cite the numerous studies about religious people being happier, with more children, lower suicide rates, etc. Hungarian leftists regularly use arguments that multiculturalism would be good for the Hungarian minorities, who would benefit from minority rights etc.

    That’s not “cynicism.” People are not very self-aware, and they will sincerely believe in their ideologies. So poor people will sincerely believe in redistribution, and as they get richer, they will slowly tend to a belief in the magical powers of low taxes and free markets. There will certainly be a lag: people will keep their beliefs longer than they serve them. But they tend to beliefs which serve them. (More idealistic people less so. It’s a tendency, a stochastic rule.)

    Jews, of course, explicitly use the argument that multiculturalism is good for Jews. They will use it when arguing with non-Jews, which shows that they are not totally aware of the fact that it’s not really an argument, and for a gentile, it’s not even a fallacious pseudo-argument.

    Marx’s comments notwithstanding, Jews (a very large proportion of them) perceived Marxism and then Bolshevism to be good for Jews as an ethnic group. So they tended to move there. And objectively speaking, in the decade after 1917, Bolshevism was indeed beneficial to Soviet Jews. However, things changed. Jews in general still considered Bolshevism to be good for them well into the 1950s, by which time it was no longer the case.

    So, perception lagged reality. Ideologies have staying power. Who would have thought?

    Anyway, Jews tend to move to ideologies which they perceive to be good for them. They perceive ideologies to be good for them if they were objectively good for them in the recent past. There is some delay in perception, and ideologies have some staying power for a long time even beyond that, especially among the more committed adherents.

    I’m not sure it’s productive to continue this.

    Replies: @Hyperborean, @Dmitry

    Marx’s comments notwithstanding, Jews (a very large proportion of them) perceived Marxism and then Bolshevism to be good for Jews as an ethnic group. So they tended to move there. And objectively speaking, in the decade after 1917, Bolshevism was indeed beneficial to Soviet Jews. However, things changed. Jews in general still considered Bolshevism to be good for them well into the 1950s, by which time it was no longer the case.

    So, perception lagged reality. Ideologies have staying power. Who would have thought?

    While there are a few decades during which there is a transition, I think it is notable that once they noticed many American Jewish “reformed” Bolshevists (typically Trotskyists) became the fiercest enemies of the Soviet Union (although I think the Soviet leadership was never quite able to completely grasp quite the extent of the ethnic element).

  295. @Thorfinnsson
    @German_reader



    shifted to what? Submarines would have been necessary anyway for the war against Britain, and the Luftwaffe remained a force used mostly for tactical support of ground troops, with all attempts at creating aircraft capable of strategic bombing unsuccesful and only pursued later in the war (and those weren’t just caused by considerations of the war against the western powers, there was also the idea of building an Uralbomber to strike Soviet industry in the Urals region).
     
    Between the Fall of France and the start of Barbarossa:

    • Massive capital investments--the largest investment boom in German history
    • U-boat production tripled
    • Aircraft production increased 40%
    • Aircraft manufacturing workforce grew 40% (effects of this not seen until 1942)
    • Munitions production was cut from 36% of expenditures to 20% (owing to large stocks--22m 10.5cm howitzer shells were in inventory in September, 1940)
    • Vehicles & weapons production increased 54%
    • Army's steel ration cut by one-third
    • Exports increased 25%

    The basic goal of Ruestungsprogramm B was to prepare for a long war against the Anglo-Americans while still increasing the striking power of the army, which was done by doubling the number of Panzer divisions and increasing the amount of artillery guns in the infantry. This was done on the cheap by restricting the production of munitions as excess stocks had been produced in advance of the invasion of France. The freed resources were allocated to capital investments, the navy, and exports.

    The capital investments should be further explained. Gigantic investments had already begun in 1938, but after the Fall of France the largest investments ever in German history (relative terms) were made. Nothing of the sort occurred in Britain or the USSR (though the USA made gigantic investments). These investments were all made for the global war against the Anglo-Americans.

    Some of the investments made include:

    • Henschel & Sohn added 100,000 square meters of factory floor space in Kassel
    • Nibelungen tank factory constructed in St Valentin, Austria
    • Vomag in Plauen and Maschinenfabrik Niedersachsen works converted to tank production
    • IG Farben commenced construction on fuel plants to raise production from 4.3m tons to 10m by 1945
    • Work began on the Auschwitz factory complex, a 1.3bn Reichsmark investment (13bn Euros today)
    • 2.5bn Reichsmarks on other chemicals projects
    • 400m Reichsmark investment to raise Norwegian aluminum production from 46,000 tons to 200,000 tons by 1944
    • 1.5bn Reichsmark investment to increase Grossraum aluminum production to 1m tons
    • 685m Reichsmark investment to build the Flugmotorenwerk Ost in Austria with a planned output of 1,000 aero engines per month (this turned into a fiasco)
    • 170m Reichsmark investment to increase production of Daimler-Benz inverted V-12 aero engines at Genshagen (major success--actual output reached over 1,200 engines per month in 1944)
    • 5.2bn Reichsmarks into all Luftwaffe industries from 1939-1942 (explains much of the "armaments miracle")

    In the absence of American involvement, perhaps more would've been allocated to current weapons production. Alternatively, Britain and the USSR would've faced a massive flood of German production in 1943 and later without a corresponding flood of American production.

    Figures are from Adam Tooze's book The Wages of Destruction.


    Given how absurdly confident Hitler and his generals were of victory in June/July 1941 (they really thought the Soviet Union would collapse in a few weeks), this seems likely to me.
    They really had no idea about Soviet capabilities. I’m currently reading a German book about the Wehrmacht, and the picture that emerges of Barbarossa is one of absolute hubris (e.g. the well-known fact that only a fairly small part of the Wehrmacht was motorized, the inferiority of German tanks to some Soviet designs, only compensated in 1941 by better German tactics, use of radio etc., the divisions destined for occupation duties in the rear being grotesquely under-manned and under-equipped, and much more).
     
    Monday morning quarterbacking is easy.

    The situation in the fall of 1940 was that the Luftwaffe had failed to defeat Britain, the Kriegsmarine was a tiny force, and Germany was facing a long global war against the vastly superior combined resources of the United States and British Empire. At the same time it was falling into dangerous dependence on the Soviet Union.

    Unlike the Luftwaffe, the German Army had seemingly proven itself as an apparently invincible war winning weapon. Conquering Russia would solve Germany's raw materials problem and provide it with all the resources it required to face the Anglo-American onslaught.

    While one shouldn't excuse German hubris and poor intelligence, the fact that the Red Army had assembled more tanks and aircraft than the rest of the world combined was certainly shocking to everyone. So too was the size of the Red Army and the ability of Soviet leadership to rapidly form divisions. The Germans had expected to face 200 divisions, but by the time Barbarossa concluded they had faced something like 700 Soviet divisions.

    A lot of very advanced Soviet weapons did appear in 1940-1941 (not just the T-34 but also the ZiS-2 57mm anti-tank gun, the M1939 85mm flak cannon, the A-19 122mm field gun, the Yak-3, etc.), but fortunately relatively little of it was in service in 1941. The Il-2 also entered service that year but Great Patriotic War mythology aside it was a bad aircraft and should not have entered service.

    Also working in favor of the invading Germans was the continuing presence in the Soviet high command of very big-brained individuals like Artillery Directorate Chief Grigory Kulik, who had the inventor of the automatic grenade launcher executed and considered land mines to be a weapon of cowards. One of the reasons the T-34s encountered in 1941 were not a threat (aside from bad training, bad manufacturing quality, and bad deployment) was that Kulik deliberately sabotaged their anti-tank armament by supply an inferior gun and reducing the allocation of shells to the tanks.

    It's true that the Wehrmacht was not motorized (and in fact progressively demotorized throughout the war), but the Red Army was not either. Obviously the lack of trucks caused enormous problems, but none the less the Germans advanced into the USSR in 1941 as fast as the Americans did into Iraq in 2003.

    Replies: @German_reader, @Gerard2, @Epigon, @Grahamsno(G64)

    Artillery Directorate Chief Grigory Kulik,

    Stalin had Kulik’s wife kidnapped and shot, he also had his chief of staff’s wife shot and Molotov’s wife narrowly escaped being shot and many other high ranking officials wives were shot. None of these guys dared protest Stalin was the boss from hell probably the worst boss in history he used to regularly humiliate Kruschev by emptying his pipe on his bald head!

  296. @Dmitry
    @Mikhail

    There is also lot of tourism from Romania to Israel (mainly pilgrims, because Romania is externally quite a Christian country).

    In per capita terms, I believe Ukrainians and Romanians are probably the most frequent visitors to Israel of any countries in the world. (Ukrainians are the most frequent tourists to Israel per capita, but I am not interested enough to do the actual calculations).

    Number of total tourists to Israel by country ranked for 2018 was something like.

    1. USA
    2. Russia
    3. France
    4. Ukraine
    5. Germany
    6. UK
    7. China
    8 Romania
    9. Poland

    Replies: @Dmitry, @Mikhail

    A follow-up asks a % breakdown of Jews and non-Jews from each of these countries?

  297. @for-the-record
    @reiner Tor

    they are suing the Hungarian State Railways for its role in the holocaust. I mean, it’s not like the state railways company was in any position to make decisions or anything

    Well, French and Dutch national railways accepted to pay reparations (in the case of the SNCF, to Holocaust survivors in the US), and they were defeated countries not allies of Germany. So my guess is that Hungary is going to have to go a very long way to ingratiate itself with the US/Israel to avoid a massive settlement.

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @Grahamsno(G64)

    French and Dutch national railways accepted to pay reparations (in the case of the SNCF

    It is a very sweet deal in the case of SNCF

    Those who are heirs of survivors or spouses who died shortly after 1948 will get less than those who died in 2014. For instance, heirs of a survivor who died in 2014 will receive about $400,000.

    Adele Weltmann, 85, of Aventura, Fla., told The Jewish Week that she has collected from both the Orphans Fund and from the latest French reparation fund. She said that although both of her parents were transported by the French railroad to Nazi concentration camps, only her father was killed; her mother survived and lived until 1982.

    No business like the Shoah business

    https://jewishweek.timesofisrael.com/questions-over-fairness-of-new-french-reparations/

  298. @songbird
    @for-the-record

    Reminds me: the Swedish Migration Board has, in theory, opened up Sweden to all Chinese Uyghurs. There are about 11 million.

    Replies: @Grahamsno(G64)

    Reminds me: the Swedish Migration Board has, in theory, opened up Sweden to all Chinese Uyghurs. There are about 11 million.

    The Chinese should just call their bluff and deport all 11 million of them to Sweden, a win, win situation the Chinese get rid of a troublesome minority and Sweden finally gets it chance to become the Islamic Emirate of Sweden. Hypercuckery in action.

    • Replies: @Pericles
    @Grahamsno(G64)


    deport all 11 million of them to Sweden, a win, win situation the Chinese get rid of a troublesome minority and Sweden finally gets it chance to become the Islamic Emirate of Sweden. Hypercuckery in action.

     

    The leader of the 'Center' party (quasi-libertarian virtue signallers), a red-headed woman, has claimed on TV that 30 million immigrants is fine. Now part of the center-left government, hooray.
  299. @German_reader
    @DFH

    More like virtue-signalling gynocracy.

    Replies: @Grahamsno(G64)

    She’s also raising a bastard. I can’t stand women who voluntarily raise bastards. It tells you how degenerate the west is that this fact wasn’t even noticed something unthinkable outside the west – a female head of State raising a bastard!

  300. @DFH
    @AP


    Look to the UK to see what Canada would have been like without Ukrainians, Italians, Greeks, Portuguese, Poles, Hungarians etc.
     
    Canada is worse than Britain though

    Replies: @Mitleser

    Anglo-Canada is a fake country.

    https://twitter.com/JoustPosting/status/1110037689322098688

    It should have been Britain’s Siberia.

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
    @Mitleser

    While I don't really disagree with the sentiment, how does this immigration chart prove that? IIRC, Canadians in the pre-WWI period were already beginning to diverge from the UK (more so than Australia and NZ where immigration was primarily Anglo-Celtic) due to non-British immigration from Europe.

    Replies: @Mitleser

    , @songbird
    @Mitleser

    The Trudeaus should have been sent into the diamond mines of Nanavut and fed the nutritious byproducts of the seal harvest.

  301. @Mitleser
    @DFH

    Anglo-Canada is a fake country.

    https://twitter.com/JoustPosting/status/1110037689322098688

    It should have been Britain's Siberia.

    http://www.highgatefleetsystems.com/wiki/images/c/c1/UnitedKingdomFlag.png

    Replies: @Hyperborean, @songbird

    While I don’t really disagree with the sentiment, how does this immigration chart prove that? IIRC, Canadians in the pre-WWI period were already beginning to diverge from the UK (more so than Australia and NZ where immigration was primarily Anglo-Celtic) due to non-British immigration from Europe.

    • Replies: @Mitleser
    @Hyperborean

    They also got many of the wrong kind of non-British immigrants from Europe whose descendants were opposed to the Anglo-French culture of Canada.


    No one noticed as this train left the station where it was heading. In the train wreck that is multiculturalism in Canada, Pierre Trudeau has to take pride of place. It was the above cited on Oct. 8, 1971 on presenting the fourth report of the Royal Commission on Bilingualism and Biculturalism, which created Canada's policy of multiculturalism.

    But even a clever and willful prime minister can't act on his own. Trudeau was supported encouraged and prodded by others who wanted to do away with French and English culture and replace it with a mosaic, including their own. Who were these "guilty men" who played a part in ruining the country?

    I've found one answer in an article in the Canadian Ethnic Studies Journal by Julia Lalande. After giving some background on the reasons for the B&B commission, she moves to the role of the Ukrainian community in Canada, which was beginning to flex its muscles.

    The problem for the Ukrainians about the Biculturalism commission, she says, was that it was about biculturalism:

    Many groups that were part of the third force (the most vocal of which was the Ukrainian-Canadian community) were exasperated by the commission's focus on bilingualism, but talk of biculturalism frustrated them even more.
     
    To change the focus, the Ukrainians started a massive lobbying campaign to open biculturalism up and convert it, holus bolus into multiculturalism.

    For Ukrainian Canadians, the early years of the discussion on multiculturalism coincided with the seventy-fifth anniversary of Ukrainian settlement in Canada in 1966. By this time, Ukrainians had evolved into a strong community very much interested in the preservation of its language and traditions. In the 1960s, this concern with conserving their culture was expressed in their strenuous involvement in the multiculturalism debate. For example, Ukrainians made the most submissions to the B&B Commission, and they actively discussed the issue in the community and in their newspapers. Their submissions to the hearings of the B&B Commission, letters to politicians, speeches and addresses, as well as resolutions at community meetings offer insight into their position. The ideas — one could even call them demands — outlined in these sources can be classified into demands for participation, recognition, and equality.
     
    This lobbying campaign must be what Heritage Canada describes as "many, particularly from Western Canada, mounted a campaign for recognition" without naming the "many" it refers to.
     
    https://www.eurocanadian.ca/2014/08/origins-of-multiculturalism-in-canada-the-ukrainian-connection.html
  302. In defense of the oft-criticized Ukrainians . . .

    World-Low 9% of Ukrainians Confident in Government

    In the lead-up to the presidential election on March 31, Ukrainians go to the polls with less faith in their government than is true for any other electorate in the world. Just 9% of residents have confidence in the national government, the lowest confidence level in the world for the second straight year. This is far below the regional median for former Soviet states (48%) as well as the global average (56%) in 2018. . . Just 12% of adults in Ukraine in 2018 said they have confidence in the honesty of elections, representing a decline from the 26% who held this sentiment in 2014, indicating growing distrust toward the electoral system in the country.

    https://news.gallup.com/poll/247976/world-low-ukrainians-confident-government.aspx

  303. @utu
    @Thorfinnsson


    bizarre Jewish campaign against Poland
     
    Big money. Jewish organizations and Israel are hoping to squeeze out of Poland $300 billions for the so called heirless property. The heirless property disposition raises serious legal issues. Who should get it and why Jews? So the argument is being made along the line of Holocaust uniqueness so the traditional and accepted legal norms could be circumvented.

    http://www.codozasady.pl/en/the-issue-of-jewish-heirless-property-demands-extraordinary-measures/

    Applying the general principle of inheritance law that heirless property is acquired by the state to questions of Jewish heirless property in Poland is ill-considered and does not take into account the tragic realities involved.

    Furthermore, moral considerations strongly indicate that alternative solutions to the issue must be found.
     
    For this reason the cases of some Poles participation in killing Jews are being blown out of proportions is to create a moral foundation for the ethical norm that the murderers may not draw material benefits from the death of their victims.

    Poland is first in line. Other countries in Eastern Europe like Ukraine and Belarus will come next. But they unlike Poland are not 'ripe' yet for the racket. Ukraine is too poor and politically precarious, so in the mean time the Banderites, the true Jew killers of Eastern Europe, are being nourished and encouraged to taint Ukraine forever with Nazism and make Ukraine easy picking in the future. Belarus is under Putin's protective umbrella. Jewish claims against Belarus would push it closer to Russia. Perhaps Putin could ask his buddy Netanyahu to make such claims. At some point we will see Slovakia being hit really hard because Slovakia was the most enthusiastic country in Europe with respect to Nazi Jewish policies.

    Poland was drawn (willingly) into the American sphere of influence with no alternatives left. To make it worse Poland was put (put itself) on the course of conflict with Germany and EU. The recent Polish claims about restitutions from Germany are part of it. It is really just a psy-op directed at Polish public opinion to bring them down to the level of the Jewish vindictive ethics to make them more appreciative of Jewish claims leaving a false promise that once Germany pays (which will not happen) paying the Jews will be easier. Compare that with the letter of reconciliation "We forgive and ask for forgiveness" of 1965 by Polish Bishops to their German counterparts which represents the true spirit of Polish Catholicism.

    Some Poles also entertain illusory rationalization that the Jewish claims will be offset by purchases of American (and Israeli) armaments which they want to buy anyway. Poles go through the standard steps of denial. And they are afraid to talk about it because of fear of being accused of antisemitism.

    One may wonder to what extent the prying off V4 countries from EU and creating the illusory vision of the Intermarium and the vilification of Russia are part of the long term strategy to settle the Holocaust financial claims. When you think about it, whatever Israel and the Jewry are doing to these countries is good for Russia in the long term.

    Replies: @Grahamsno(G64)

    From your link;

    In the majority of Jewish heirless property matters there is a lack of documents providing even indirect information about the property and its owners (or their relatives). In some regions, pre-war land and mortgage registers were completely destroyed during the war. Additionally, civil status records for the Jewish community in many cities and regions were completely destroyed. There is also no chance of finding death certificates of Jewish property owners, especially those murdered in concentration camps; such documents were often never issued. Frequently there are no documents or witnesses who could provide even indirect confirmation that a particular individual or family was transported to a concentration camp or other location.

    Oh boy conditions for the perfect Scam, this’s basically a blank Cheque the Poles are royally screwed. The Germans already payed them for the atrocities committed in Poland and now the Poles who didn’t even have a government have to pay them. And the Jews wonder why they are universally reviled.

  304. @Adam
    @AP

    Canada is undergoing an extremely rapid demographic transformation. It will become majority non-white.

    The prescence of peripheral Europeans has nothing to do with immigration policy. Just because Poles in Poland don't like immigration doesn't mean that they form some kind of anti-immigration bloc in the diaspora.

    Peripheral Europeans don't have some right to societies built by Northern Europeans. They're decent people, but they can't exactly build the kind of societies Northern Europeans do, not to mention the whole Euromutt phenomenon is damaging to any kind of rooted identity. Even as a Russophile I feel ambivalent hearing Russian in the street in a city built by Germans and Scandinavians, that should have been left to their descendants. But of course there are more pressing matters now.

    Replies: @AP

    Canada is undergoing an extremely rapid demographic transformation. It will become majority non-white.

    My point is that this process would have been much faster had Ukrainians, Italians and other non-Anglos not come to Canada en masse.

    The prescence of peripheral Europeans has nothing to do with immigration policy. Just because Poles in Poland don’t like immigration doesn’t mean that they form some kind of anti-immigration bloc in the diaspora.

    There is a diaspora Ukrainian in the current Canadian (Liberal) government however most Ukrainians vote Conservative in Canada and tend to oppose non-European immigration.

    Peripheral Europeans don’t have some right to societies built by Northern Europeans.

    On this, I agree. Canada was fairly unsettled when the Ukrainians arrived; they found virgin lands in the west and turned them into prosperous farms.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    @AP

    Canadian Anglos created racially restrictionist immigration legislation before the war just like Anglos in Australia and America did.

    In all three countries this was dismantled in the generation after the war.

    I agree that singling out Ukrainian-Canadians is silly. There was the matter of how the war itself radically transformed attitudes for the worse, and with respect to Canada in particular obviously French-Canadians were much more invested in pushing multiculturalism (a policy formally enacted by the current PM's father).

    They did play some role--a recurring problem with non-foundational populations is a tendency to interpret restrictionist legislation as a personal insult. Fortunately this tendency typically fades as the generations pass with everyone other than the Jews.

    Replies: @Dmitry

  305. @German_reader
    @utu

    I know, I'm wary of those people.
    But tbh, I don't have a problem with Islamophobia in principle. I'm an Islamophobe myself. And Merkel's policy really has been disastrous and will lead to Germany's destruction. She is undoubtedly one of the worst figures in German history.

    Replies: @utu, @Grahamsno(G64)

    Long time back when you could comment on all topics in the Guardian I asked a question about the cost/benefit analysis of mass Muslim migration to the west, I pointed out that on the cost side I saw a rapidly growing mound of dead bodies and I said that the benefits would have to be extraordinary to justify the cost could someone just point out the benefit to me as I seemed to have missed it. Complete silence but the comment was allowed to stand.

    Allowing Muslim mass migration to any non Muslim society is literally suicidally stupid.

  306. @Hyperborean
    @Mitleser

    While I don't really disagree with the sentiment, how does this immigration chart prove that? IIRC, Canadians in the pre-WWI period were already beginning to diverge from the UK (more so than Australia and NZ where immigration was primarily Anglo-Celtic) due to non-British immigration from Europe.

    Replies: @Mitleser

    They also got many of the wrong kind of non-British immigrants from Europe whose descendants were opposed to the Anglo-French culture of Canada.

    No one noticed as this train left the station where it was heading. In the train wreck that is multiculturalism in Canada, Pierre Trudeau has to take pride of place. It was the above cited on Oct. 8, 1971 on presenting the fourth report of the Royal Commission on Bilingualism and Biculturalism, which created Canada’s policy of multiculturalism.

    But even a clever and willful prime minister can’t act on his own. Trudeau was supported encouraged and prodded by others who wanted to do away with French and English culture and replace it with a mosaic, including their own. Who were these “guilty men” who played a part in ruining the country?

    I’ve found one answer in an article in the Canadian Ethnic Studies Journal by Julia Lalande. After giving some background on the reasons for the B&B commission, she moves to the role of the Ukrainian community in Canada, which was beginning to flex its muscles.

    The problem for the Ukrainians about the Biculturalism commission, she says, was that it was about biculturalism:

    Many groups that were part of the third force (the most vocal of which was the Ukrainian-Canadian community) were exasperated by the commission’s focus on bilingualism, but talk of biculturalism frustrated them even more.

    To change the focus, the Ukrainians started a massive lobbying campaign to open biculturalism up and convert it, holus bolus into multiculturalism.

    For Ukrainian Canadians, the early years of the discussion on multiculturalism coincided with the seventy-fifth anniversary of Ukrainian settlement in Canada in 1966. By this time, Ukrainians had evolved into a strong community very much interested in the preservation of its language and traditions. In the 1960s, this concern with conserving their culture was expressed in their strenuous involvement in the multiculturalism debate. For example, Ukrainians made the most submissions to the B&B Commission, and they actively discussed the issue in the community and in their newspapers. Their submissions to the hearings of the B&B Commission, letters to politicians, speeches and addresses, as well as resolutions at community meetings offer insight into their position. The ideas — one could even call them demands — outlined in these sources can be classified into demands for participation, recognition, and equality.

    This lobbying campaign must be what Heritage Canada describes as “many, particularly from Western Canada, mounted a campaign for recognition” without naming the “many” it refers to.

    https://www.eurocanadian.ca/2014/08/origins-of-multiculturalism-in-canada-the-ukrainian-connection.html

  307. @AP
    @Adam


    Canada is undergoing an extremely rapid demographic transformation. It will become majority non-white.
     
    My point is that this process would have been much faster had Ukrainians, Italians and other non-Anglos not come to Canada en masse.

    The prescence of peripheral Europeans has nothing to do with immigration policy. Just because Poles in Poland don’t like immigration doesn’t mean that they form some kind of anti-immigration bloc in the diaspora.
     
    There is a diaspora Ukrainian in the current Canadian (Liberal) government however most Ukrainians vote Conservative in Canada and tend to oppose non-European immigration.

    Peripheral Europeans don’t have some right to societies built by Northern Europeans.
     
    On this, I agree. Canada was fairly unsettled when the Ukrainians arrived; they found virgin lands in the west and turned them into prosperous farms.

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson

    Canadian Anglos created racially restrictionist immigration legislation before the war just like Anglos in Australia and America did.

    In all three countries this was dismantled in the generation after the war.

    I agree that singling out Ukrainian-Canadians is silly. There was the matter of how the war itself radically transformed attitudes for the worse, and with respect to Canada in particular obviously French-Canadians were much more invested in pushing multiculturalism (a policy formally enacted by the current PM’s father).

    They did play some role–a recurring problem with non-foundational populations is a tendency to interpret restrictionist legislation as a personal insult. Fortunately this tendency typically fades as the generations pass with everyone other than the Jews.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @Thorfinnsson

    Remember there is a lot of difference of Ukrainians who emigrate to Canada at least since the 1990s-2018, and Canadians who were descended from some kind of Second World War refugees.

    Ukrainians which emigrated from 1990s-2018 to Canada, are Ukrainian people in the sense we understand. (And a lot of them identify, kind of accurately, as Russians-Canadians).

    If you go to highschool in Ukraine/USSR, then they will be "Ukrainian-Canadian" in meaningful sense.

    People and their descendants which emigrated from Second World War.: will be more Canadians of Ukrainian ancestry or blood. The soul and culture is more like any other born Canadians.

  308. @German_reader
    @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan


    Ron Unz gave us a good starting point from where we can wander into asking what might have been if a bunch of Limey spies and Roosevelt hadn’t attacked our formerly peaceful country
     
    Nazi Germany could have become potentially quite dangerous to the US if it had successfully conquered Eurasia. It did have fairly advanced technology by the standards of the time after all, especially in rocket development. I guess it comes down to the question whether Hitler's ambitions were limited to Europe or global, at least in the long term.
    Another crucial question of course is whether Germany could ever have decisively defeated the Soviet Union and occupied all of European Russia. I doubt it, Operation Barbarossa was total hubris and the German plans had failed even in their modified form by late 1942/early 1943, and that was before America decisively entered the war in North Africa and Europe, and iirc also before most of the Western lend-lease shipments to the Soviet Union. But I suppose there might have been some sort of extended stalemate.
    But in any case, Roosevelt's actions turned the US into the dominant world power, at the cost of the lowest casualties of all combatant powers. So the criticism of him by US paleoconservatives always seems rather exaggerated to me.

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson, @Hyperborean, @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan, @Konstantin

    It’s not widely known as well that Germany had advanced TV network, including broadcasting of 1936 Olympics and even soccer matches for wounded soldiers in hospitals during WWII. Extremely efficient media propagandists like Goebbels would’ve ensured 3rd Reich media domination in the post-war world.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @Konstantin

    iirc Goebbels disliked television, he thought it wasn't as suitable for propaganda as cinema.
    But yes, there were some early television programmes in 1930s Germany:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vMecO38MZCc
    from 0.52 onwards there's a "comedian" joking about Konzertlager.

    Replies: @songbird

  309. @Adam
    @Dmitry

    I'm not exactly sympathetic to Latvia, but Russians in the Baltics should learn the local languages, which I believe is the main barrier to citizenship.

    Apartheid was a good thing by the way.

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @Konstantin, @anonymous coward

    They shouldn’t as they started to settle in the area pretty much at the same time as latvians

    • Replies: @LatW
    @Konstantin

    Ofc, they didn't. Be careful, dear, people here read anthropology occasionally. If you meant the Wends, nobody knows who they were, could've been a coastal Finnic people, nobody's seen them and they don't count. If you meant the Ruyan, then yes great people but closer to Polish or even ancient Prussian than Russian. And they lived in Prussia or Germany.

    Russians other than Old Believers who are very different from modern Russians and who were perfectly integrated already during the 1930's don't have deep roots in the Baltics. They are very recent arrivals, some as recent as the late 1980s, 90s and later. Most graves are very recent, too.

    Replies: @Gerard2, @Konstantin, @Konstantin

  310. @Konstantin
    @German_reader

    It's not widely known as well that Germany had advanced TV network, including broadcasting of 1936 Olympics and even soccer matches for wounded soldiers in hospitals during WWII. Extremely efficient media propagandists like Goebbels would've ensured 3rd Reich media domination in the post-war world.

    Replies: @German_reader

    iirc Goebbels disliked television, he thought it wasn’t as suitable for propaganda as cinema.
    But yes, there were some early television programmes in 1930s Germany:

    from 0.52 onwards there’s a “comedian” joking about Konzertlager.

    • Replies: @songbird
    @German_reader

    No doubt, he would change his mind today, if he understood any number of factors.

    The history of TV with regard to the Overton window. The global reach of a show like"Hercules" or "Baywatch." The effect of American television shows like "Dallas" on communist Eastern Europe. Streaming. High definition. The widescreen aspect ratio of modern TVs. Not to mention, the budget of shows like "Game of Thrones", about $15 million per episode.

    At least, as a vehicle for promulgating leftist politics, it seems pretty effective. Perhaps, the reverse would not be true.

  311. @German_reader
    @Konstantin

    iirc Goebbels disliked television, he thought it wasn't as suitable for propaganda as cinema.
    But yes, there were some early television programmes in 1930s Germany:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vMecO38MZCc
    from 0.52 onwards there's a "comedian" joking about Konzertlager.

    Replies: @songbird

    No doubt, he would change his mind today, if he understood any number of factors.

    The history of TV with regard to the Overton window. The global reach of a show like”Hercules” or “Baywatch.” The effect of American television shows like “Dallas” on communist Eastern Europe. Streaming. High definition. The widescreen aspect ratio of modern TVs. Not to mention, the budget of shows like “Game of Thrones”, about $15 million per episode.

    At least, as a vehicle for promulgating leftist politics, it seems pretty effective. Perhaps, the reverse would not be true.

  312. ZOG and refuge in audacity

    • Replies: @songbird
    @Mitleser

    Hoyer is a dinosaur. He will turn 80, this year, if he is lucky. But there are at least three people older than him in the House, including Maxine Waters, though none are record holders. He is older than Pelosi.

    Starting in 1962, he was on the staff of Senator Brewster, along with Pelosi. They have been in Washington before the decline of the US even started (at least, if you take the short view of 1965 being the staring point.) That is really quite amazing to think about - and in all that time, they have only become more successful.

  313. @Mitleser
    @DFH

    Anglo-Canada is a fake country.

    https://twitter.com/JoustPosting/status/1110037689322098688

    It should have been Britain's Siberia.

    http://www.highgatefleetsystems.com/wiki/images/c/c1/UnitedKingdomFlag.png

    Replies: @Hyperborean, @songbird

    The Trudeaus should have been sent into the diamond mines of Nanavut and fed the nutritious byproducts of the seal harvest.

  314. @reiner Tor
    @Dmitry


    you were calling people like myself, who didn’t share your political opinions, “autistic normies”
     
    Why the plural? I only called you an autistic normie, did I call anyone else that?

    “normies” is the term used by people with autistic spectrum disorders to refer to non-autistic people.
     
    What?

    Regarding the rest.

    Obviously people tend to believe in things which are good for them. Minorities will believe that granting minority rights is morally superior to encouraging assimilation.

    People will explicitly use such utilitarian arguments, even if they have no relevance to the question at hand. For example religious people will often cite the numerous studies about religious people being happier, with more children, lower suicide rates, etc. Hungarian leftists regularly use arguments that multiculturalism would be good for the Hungarian minorities, who would benefit from minority rights etc.

    That’s not “cynicism.” People are not very self-aware, and they will sincerely believe in their ideologies. So poor people will sincerely believe in redistribution, and as they get richer, they will slowly tend to a belief in the magical powers of low taxes and free markets. There will certainly be a lag: people will keep their beliefs longer than they serve them. But they tend to beliefs which serve them. (More idealistic people less so. It’s a tendency, a stochastic rule.)

    Jews, of course, explicitly use the argument that multiculturalism is good for Jews. They will use it when arguing with non-Jews, which shows that they are not totally aware of the fact that it’s not really an argument, and for a gentile, it’s not even a fallacious pseudo-argument.

    Marx’s comments notwithstanding, Jews (a very large proportion of them) perceived Marxism and then Bolshevism to be good for Jews as an ethnic group. So they tended to move there. And objectively speaking, in the decade after 1917, Bolshevism was indeed beneficial to Soviet Jews. However, things changed. Jews in general still considered Bolshevism to be good for them well into the 1950s, by which time it was no longer the case.

    So, perception lagged reality. Ideologies have staying power. Who would have thought?

    Anyway, Jews tend to move to ideologies which they perceive to be good for them. They perceive ideologies to be good for them if they were objectively good for them in the recent past. There is some delay in perception, and ideologies have some staying power for a long time even beyond that, especially among the more committed adherents.

    I’m not sure it’s productive to continue this.

    Replies: @Hyperborean, @Dmitry

    Why the plural? I only called you an autistic normie, did I call anyone else that?

    I’ve seen you refer to yourself as this, which is a good sign, since it shows some self-awareness. Normie brain does not chase their own tail on endless strange conspiracy theories. This makes your comments entertaining, so when you start projecting and then attacking autism it seems like you are engaging in self-hatred.

    I like your comments generally, but you need people point out your blindspots and overliteralism.

    people tend to believe in things which are good for them.

    Of course, the ideologies can be more attractive to some demographics for this reason.

    But to reduce the reason people believed Marxism to “Jewish racial self-interest”, is nonsense.
    You’ll have to explain all non-Jews, from Engels or Lenin, or China, et al, had some separate reason for believing Marxism.

    If people believe everything for racial self-interest, why are there so many liberals today who want to punish their own races.

    Also there is the fact for Marxism, that Marxism wanted to dissolve Jews as a separate nationality, and was largely successful to do that where it was an official ideology. Moreover, Jews which believed Marxism, usually did not have group identity as Jews, and were effectively acolytes of a new religion. Marx himself had an attitude to Jews like Ron Unz on here.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    @Dmitry

    Engels was a sex-crazed degenerate and Lenin was a one man coalition of the fringes (German, Swedish, Kalmyk, Jewish) to use Steve Sailer's term.

    A major common denominator today with ethnomasochistic (John Derbyshire's term) white liberals who seek to punish or even eradicate the white race itself is weakness. If you look at the physiognomy of white liberals they are usually fundamentally weak people. The men are effeminate and the women ugly.

    Thus they are engaged in virtue signalling. Instead of advocating directly for their interests they seek to bolster their social status and occupational success by loudly repeating dominant, high-status social norms.

    Replies: @Dmitry, @DFH, @reiner Tor

    , @reiner Tor
    @Dmitry

    I don’t think it’s a productive conversation. Have a nice Tuesday!

  315. @Thorfinnsson
    @AP

    Canadian Anglos created racially restrictionist immigration legislation before the war just like Anglos in Australia and America did.

    In all three countries this was dismantled in the generation after the war.

    I agree that singling out Ukrainian-Canadians is silly. There was the matter of how the war itself radically transformed attitudes for the worse, and with respect to Canada in particular obviously French-Canadians were much more invested in pushing multiculturalism (a policy formally enacted by the current PM's father).

    They did play some role--a recurring problem with non-foundational populations is a tendency to interpret restrictionist legislation as a personal insult. Fortunately this tendency typically fades as the generations pass with everyone other than the Jews.

    Replies: @Dmitry

    Remember there is a lot of difference of Ukrainians who emigrate to Canada at least since the 1990s-2018, and Canadians who were descended from some kind of Second World War refugees.

    Ukrainians which emigrated from 1990s-2018 to Canada, are Ukrainian people in the sense we understand. (And a lot of them identify, kind of accurately, as Russians-Canadians).

    If you go to highschool in Ukraine/USSR, then they will be “Ukrainian-Canadian” in meaningful sense.

    People and their descendants which emigrated from Second World War.: will be more Canadians of Ukrainian ancestry or blood. The soul and culture is more like any other born Canadians.

  316. @Dmitry
    @reiner Tor


    Why the plural? I only called you an autistic normie, did I call anyone else that?

     

    I've seen you refer to yourself as this, which is a good sign, since it shows some self-awareness. Normie brain does not chase their own tail on endless strange conspiracy theories. This makes your comments entertaining, so when you start projecting and then attacking autism it seems like you are engaging in self-hatred.

    I like your comments generally, but you need people point out your blindspots and overliteralism.

    people tend to believe in things which are good for them.
     
    Of course, the ideologies can be more attractive to some demographics for this reason.

    But to reduce the reason people believed Marxism to "Jewish racial self-interest", is nonsense.
    You'll have to explain all non-Jews, from Engels or Lenin, or China, et al, had some separate reason for believing Marxism.

    If people believe everything for racial self-interest, why are there so many liberals today who want to punish their own races.

    Also there is the fact for Marxism, that Marxism wanted to dissolve Jews as a separate nationality, and was largely successful to do that where it was an official ideology. Moreover, Jews which believed Marxism, usually did not have group identity as Jews, and were effectively acolytes of a new religion. Marx himself had an attitude to Jews like Ron Unz on here.

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson, @reiner Tor

    Engels was a sex-crazed degenerate and Lenin was a one man coalition of the fringes (German, Swedish, Kalmyk, Jewish) to use Steve Sailer’s term.

    A major common denominator today with ethnomasochistic (John Derbyshire’s term) white liberals who seek to punish or even eradicate the white race itself is weakness. If you look at the physiognomy of white liberals they are usually fundamentally weak people. The men are effeminate and the women ugly.

    Thus they are engaged in virtue signalling. Instead of advocating directly for their interests they seek to bolster their social status and occupational success by loudly repeating dominant, high-status social norms.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @Thorfinnsson


    Lenin was a one man coalition of the fringes
     
    Lenin had a lot of mixed blood in his family tree. No-one in Russia of the time, nor Lenin himself, would perceive Lenin in terms like that though.

    He did not belong to any "minority" nationality or culture. He was a nationally Russian, middle class dude. Perhaps having mixed, incompatible blood has unconsciously influenced his psychology though. But in the conscious sphere, this was not part of his identity or a conscious motive for his fanatical life.

    The problem with Lenin is that his psychology, was a bit like Osama bin Laden.


    major common denominator today with ethnomasochistic (John Derbyshire’s term) white liberals who seek to punish or even eradicate the white race itself is weakness.
     
    Of course, and as in your example, self-interest, and not even economic self-interest, let alone racial self-interest, can not explain common political behaviours.

    Marx and Marxism's attitude to Jews and Judaism, is not unlike Ron Unz on here. He saw Jews a problem and fundamental obstacle, and wanted to remove and dissolve Jews as a separate people as a precondition for communism.

    But Marxism was a very seductive religion, which passionately believed, often in support of self-interest, but also sometimes against self interest. For Jews, it was useful of course, Marxism was useful a offering a path to dissolve their separate identity and assimilate to universal society.

    But in fact, many bourgeois people seduced by Marxism, even as it would mean loss of their fortunes. Marxism was something seductive, even when it contradicts all your self-interest.

    The best dismantling of Marxism as an actual belief system (and this - in the world of philosophy - is where ideology has to actually be defeated) were not written until after 1917, unfortunately.

    , @DFH
    @Thorfinnsson

    An awful lot of leading Bolsheviks were married to Jewish women too

    , @reiner Tor
    @Thorfinnsson

    The vast majority of communist believers were underdogs, who hoped that their (or their groups’) positions would improve under the coming communist utopia. This is true of the majority of communists (who were poor), and some more elite third world leaders (though communist leaders were usually at best middle class). Jews fit this pattern to an extent, but economically speaking they were already top dogs.

    It’s often asserted that Jewish communists never had a Jewish identity, but it’s often difficult to tell, because Jews don’t tell others about their identity. (Nor do they necessarily have the self-awareness to know it themselves if they are motivated by their ethnic identity.) For example Molotov’s wife showed zero signs of a Jewish identity, until she met Golda Meyersson (later Meir) in 1948 and immediately broke in tears. The Moscow synagogue was swarmed by a crowd of Jews several times its capacity when she arrived there - presumably this included any number of Jews who had previously never shown a sign of Jewish ethnic identity. Voroshilov’s wife similarly astonished her family members in 1948 when she announced that “finally we have a country.” At first they didn’t understand who the “we” referred to - she hadn’t shown any signs of a Jewish ethnic identity before. The Hungarian minister of culture (and secretary responsible for culture in the Political Committee of the Hungarian Socialist Workers’ Party) started out as a Zionist, while the communist vice chairman of the Hungarian National Bank (largely responsible for the indebtedness of the country by 1990) quickly discovered his Jewish roots in 1990 and left for Israel.

    Communism clearly wasn’t the dominant ideology of Jews, but it was attractive to a disproportionate number of them, especially considering their economic position. (I.e. they were not poor working class.) This is the reason why Hungary in 1921 made a law (touted in Hungary as the “first racial law against Jews”; I’m not sure if it’s known outside Hungary) which restricted Jews to 5% of students in higher education - they didn’t want to train the leadership of the next communist government.

    Replies: @Dmitry, @Mr. XYZ

  317. @Mitleser
    ZOG and refuge in audacity

    https://twitter.com/AIPAC/status/1109948025840037889

    Replies: @songbird

    Hoyer is a dinosaur. He will turn 80, this year, if he is lucky. But there are at least three people older than him in the House, including Maxine Waters, though none are record holders. He is older than Pelosi.

    Starting in 1962, he was on the staff of Senator Brewster, along with Pelosi. They have been in Washington before the decline of the US even started (at least, if you take the short view of 1965 being the staring point.) That is really quite amazing to think about – and in all that time, they have only become more successful.

  318. @Thorfinnsson
    @Dmitry

    Engels was a sex-crazed degenerate and Lenin was a one man coalition of the fringes (German, Swedish, Kalmyk, Jewish) to use Steve Sailer's term.

    A major common denominator today with ethnomasochistic (John Derbyshire's term) white liberals who seek to punish or even eradicate the white race itself is weakness. If you look at the physiognomy of white liberals they are usually fundamentally weak people. The men are effeminate and the women ugly.

    Thus they are engaged in virtue signalling. Instead of advocating directly for their interests they seek to bolster their social status and occupational success by loudly repeating dominant, high-status social norms.

    Replies: @Dmitry, @DFH, @reiner Tor

    Lenin was a one man coalition of the fringes

    Lenin had a lot of mixed blood in his family tree. No-one in Russia of the time, nor Lenin himself, would perceive Lenin in terms like that though.

    He did not belong to any “minority” nationality or culture. He was a nationally Russian, middle class dude. Perhaps having mixed, incompatible blood has unconsciously influenced his psychology though. But in the conscious sphere, this was not part of his identity or a conscious motive for his fanatical life.

    The problem with Lenin is that his psychology, was a bit like Osama bin Laden.

    major common denominator today with ethnomasochistic (John Derbyshire’s term) white liberals who seek to punish or even eradicate the white race itself is weakness.

    Of course, and as in your example, self-interest, and not even economic self-interest, let alone racial self-interest, can not explain common political behaviours.

    Marx and Marxism’s attitude to Jews and Judaism, is not unlike Ron Unz on here. He saw Jews a problem and fundamental obstacle, and wanted to remove and dissolve Jews as a separate people as a precondition for communism.

    But Marxism was a very seductive religion, which passionately believed, often in support of self-interest, but also sometimes against self interest. For Jews, it was useful of course, Marxism was useful a offering a path to dissolve their separate identity and assimilate to universal society.

    But in fact, many bourgeois people seduced by Marxism, even as it would mean loss of their fortunes. Marxism was something seductive, even when it contradicts all your self-interest.

    The best dismantling of Marxism as an actual belief system (and this – in the world of philosophy – is where ideology has to actually be defeated) were not written until after 1917, unfortunately.

  319. @Grahamsno(G64)
    @songbird


    Reminds me: the Swedish Migration Board has, in theory, opened up Sweden to all Chinese Uyghurs. There are about 11 million.
     
    The Chinese should just call their bluff and deport all 11 million of them to Sweden, a win, win situation the Chinese get rid of a troublesome minority and Sweden finally gets it chance to become the Islamic Emirate of Sweden. Hypercuckery in action.

    Replies: @Pericles

    deport all 11 million of them to Sweden, a win, win situation the Chinese get rid of a troublesome minority and Sweden finally gets it chance to become the Islamic Emirate of Sweden. Hypercuckery in action.

    The leader of the ‘Center’ party (quasi-libertarian virtue signallers), a red-headed woman, has claimed on TV that 30 million immigrants is fine. Now part of the center-left government, hooray.

  320. @Thorfinnsson
    @Dmitry

    Engels was a sex-crazed degenerate and Lenin was a one man coalition of the fringes (German, Swedish, Kalmyk, Jewish) to use Steve Sailer's term.

    A major common denominator today with ethnomasochistic (John Derbyshire's term) white liberals who seek to punish or even eradicate the white race itself is weakness. If you look at the physiognomy of white liberals they are usually fundamentally weak people. The men are effeminate and the women ugly.

    Thus they are engaged in virtue signalling. Instead of advocating directly for their interests they seek to bolster their social status and occupational success by loudly repeating dominant, high-status social norms.

    Replies: @Dmitry, @DFH, @reiner Tor

    An awful lot of leading Bolsheviks were married to Jewish women too

  321. @Hyperborean
    For future reference, does anyone know of good bookstores for history, literature, etc. books in London?

    I usually just buy books at Waterstones and Foyles when I am there, but I would like to know if there is a interesting selection of books somewhere that I have missed.

    Replies: @Pericles

    Waterstones bought up most of the old giants, but the stores are still around.

    Apart from Foyle’s, I’ve always enjoyed Hatchards (very near Fortnum & Masons), and also recommend a visit to Waterstones Gower Street, near UCL. I’d also recommend looking through https://www.abebooks.co.uk/ and see if there are any interesting antiquarians to visit.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @Pericles


    Waterstones
     
    I think the version of these bookshops in London with the nicest and most spacious atmosphere for reading inside, at least for tourists (I don't think the books are different though), is the Piccadilly version (opposite side of street than Yoshino Restaurant).

    Replies: @Dmitry, @Pericles

    , @Hyperborean
    @Pericles

    Thanks.

    Replies: @DFH

  322. @Pericles
    @Hyperborean

    Waterstones bought up most of the old giants, but the stores are still around.

    Apart from Foyle's, I've always enjoyed Hatchards (very near Fortnum & Masons), and also recommend a visit to Waterstones Gower Street, near UCL. I'd also recommend looking through https://www.abebooks.co.uk/ and see if there are any interesting antiquarians to visit.

    Replies: @Dmitry, @Hyperborean

    Waterstones

    I think the version of these bookshops in London with the nicest and most spacious atmosphere for reading inside, at least for tourists (I don’t think the books are different though), is the Piccadilly version (opposite side of street than Yoshino Restaurant).

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @Dmitry

    And large and spacious Piccadilly Waterstones, with a restaurant with a nice view in the top (and some different language books, like Russian, if you are interested), is next to the small Hatchards. So if you buy a book in the latter, can read it in the former.

    , @Pericles
    @Dmitry

    Do you mean that huge skyscraper-like bookstore? I think it used to be named Simpsons before it was sold.

    Note that the books are not necessarily the same for the 'name level stores'. For example, the Gower Street store is more of an academic bookshop, as hinted by its location. Many many shelves of obscure graduate textbooks to go through if you like me enjoy that sort of thing. (Similar to Foyle's in this respect.) Likewise, I've found some rare releases in Hatchards that I've never seen anywhere else.

    I haven't visited London in quite a while so things may admittedly have changed. Still worth a look IMO.

    Speaking of antiquarians in London, here is one I've wanted to visit: https://www.maggs.com/
    Depends on your level of commitment though.

    Replies: @Dmitry

  323. @Pericles
    @Hyperborean

    Waterstones bought up most of the old giants, but the stores are still around.

    Apart from Foyle's, I've always enjoyed Hatchards (very near Fortnum & Masons), and also recommend a visit to Waterstones Gower Street, near UCL. I'd also recommend looking through https://www.abebooks.co.uk/ and see if there are any interesting antiquarians to visit.

    Replies: @Dmitry, @Hyperborean

    Thanks.

    • Replies: @DFH
    @Hyperborean

    The London Review of Books shop is also not bad

    Replies: @Dmitry

  324. @Dmitry
    @Pericles


    Waterstones
     
    I think the version of these bookshops in London with the nicest and most spacious atmosphere for reading inside, at least for tourists (I don't think the books are different though), is the Piccadilly version (opposite side of street than Yoshino Restaurant).

    Replies: @Dmitry, @Pericles

    And large and spacious Piccadilly Waterstones, with a restaurant with a nice view in the top (and some different language books, like Russian, if you are interested), is next to the small Hatchards. So if you buy a book in the latter, can read it in the former.

  325. @Hyperborean
    @Pericles

    Thanks.

    Replies: @DFH

    The London Review of Books shop is also not bad

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @DFH

    Socialist bookshop near British Museum, is disgusting though. It's only books supporting Chavez, trade unions, Chomsky and Allende. They have the same trash sold by Waterstones, but imagine concentrating it all into a very small building.

  326. @Dmitry
    @Pericles


    Waterstones
     
    I think the version of these bookshops in London with the nicest and most spacious atmosphere for reading inside, at least for tourists (I don't think the books are different though), is the Piccadilly version (opposite side of street than Yoshino Restaurant).

    Replies: @Dmitry, @Pericles

    Do you mean that huge skyscraper-like bookstore? I think it used to be named Simpsons before it was sold.

    Note that the books are not necessarily the same for the ‘name level stores’. For example, the Gower Street store is more of an academic bookshop, as hinted by its location. Many many shelves of obscure graduate textbooks to go through if you like me enjoy that sort of thing. (Similar to Foyle’s in this respect.) Likewise, I’ve found some rare releases in Hatchards that I’ve never seen anywhere else.

    I haven’t visited London in quite a while so things may admittedly have changed. Still worth a look IMO.

    Speaking of antiquarians in London, here is one I’ve wanted to visit: https://www.maggs.com/
    Depends on your level of commitment though.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @Pericles


    Do you mean that huge skyscraper-like bookstore

     

    Yes I think so. It's the multistory Waterstones opposite side of Piccadilly from Yoshino restaurant (next to Fortnam and Mason, Hatchards).

    The only difference about the books, is maybe the Russian language books they have. Otherwise, I guess it's probably the same book selection as other versions of Waterstones.

    But atmosphere of this spacious 1930s building is the nicest for reading in London I think.


    Gower Street store is more of an academic bookshop, as hinted by its location. Many many shelves of obscure graduate textbooks
     
    I've visited as well, although it was years in the past. I don't think it's such a pleasant space inside. But yes, I think you can be right there is a lot of selection there and perhaps technical books .
  327. @DFH
    @Hyperborean

    The London Review of Books shop is also not bad

    Replies: @Dmitry

    Socialist bookshop near British Museum, is disgusting though. It’s only books supporting Chavez, trade unions, Chomsky and Allende. They have the same trash sold by Waterstones, but imagine concentrating it all into a very small building.

  328. @Pericles
    @Dmitry

    Do you mean that huge skyscraper-like bookstore? I think it used to be named Simpsons before it was sold.

    Note that the books are not necessarily the same for the 'name level stores'. For example, the Gower Street store is more of an academic bookshop, as hinted by its location. Many many shelves of obscure graduate textbooks to go through if you like me enjoy that sort of thing. (Similar to Foyle's in this respect.) Likewise, I've found some rare releases in Hatchards that I've never seen anywhere else.

    I haven't visited London in quite a while so things may admittedly have changed. Still worth a look IMO.

    Speaking of antiquarians in London, here is one I've wanted to visit: https://www.maggs.com/
    Depends on your level of commitment though.

    Replies: @Dmitry

    Do you mean that huge skyscraper-like bookstore

    Yes I think so. It’s the multistory Waterstones opposite side of Piccadilly from Yoshino restaurant (next to Fortnam and Mason, Hatchards).

    The only difference about the books, is maybe the Russian language books they have. Otherwise, I guess it’s probably the same book selection as other versions of Waterstones.

    But atmosphere of this spacious 1930s building is the nicest for reading in London I think.

    Gower Street store is more of an academic bookshop, as hinted by its location. Many many shelves of obscure graduate textbooks

    I’ve visited as well, although it was years in the past. I don’t think it’s such a pleasant space inside. But yes, I think you can be right there is a lot of selection there and perhaps technical books .

  329. @Hyperborean
    @reiner Tor


    The other barrier is that many already have Russian passports. Again, the comparison to apartheid is pretty dubious.

     

    Seems this is not quite accurate.

    From wikipedia, which cites the 2017 Latvian government statistics:

    Citizens of Latvia (1,788,710) - 84.48%

    Non-citizens of Latvia (237,759) - 11.23%

    Citizens of Russia (54,998) - 2.60%

    Others, mainly citizens of other countries (35,916) - 1.70%
     
    Latvian Non-citizens have 90 days within 180 days Schengen visa and Russian visa and then a few Latin American and other minor countries.

    Latvian citizens in contrast have access to over 150-ish countries if one excludes the Schengen region.

    Estonian non-citizens have similar limited visa access as Latvian non-citizens.

    Estonian Non-citizens are around 6-8% of the population (although it was 40% at independence), around an equal amount are citizens of foreign countries (mainly Russia, Belorussia and Ukraine). I don’t know many emigrated compared to being naturalised.

    After legal changes Non-citizen children born at independence in Estonia and Latvia are able to obtain citizenship.

    -----

    My own opinion is, if the Latvians and Estonians wish to solve their Russian problem then they should advocate for freedom for movement in Schengen area for non-citizens.

    I think many Baltic Russian-speakers would mind less if they were able to go to Germany.

    Replies: @LatW

    Well, maybe Western countries can straight up offer them residence?

    No, Germany is not in the cards for the remaining non-citizens as most of them are too attached to the Baltic states or neighboring countries like Belarus. Some of them deliberately do not take out the passport to be able to travel east without a visa to see their relatives. Those who wanted to go to the West already got the passport in 2004 (slightly questionable MO, lol, but ok, let’s not nitpick). No, for them moving West doesn’t make sense, they have their Russophone friend and family network, paid out apartments, they don’t want to be uprooted, learn English, pay exorbitant rents in the West, forget it. Moving is not that easy past age 35 or so.

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
    @LatW

    Well, then I suppose there is not an easy solution.

    Also, what's your answer to Dmitry's question:


    What is your view about allegations – perhaps exaggerated – saying there is an “apartheid system” in Latvia today?
     
  330. @LatW
    @Hyperborean

    Well, maybe Western countries can straight up offer them residence?

    No, Germany is not in the cards for the remaining non-citizens as most of them are too attached to the Baltic states or neighboring countries like Belarus. Some of them deliberately do not take out the passport to be able to travel east without a visa to see their relatives. Those who wanted to go to the West already got the passport in 2004 (slightly questionable MO, lol, but ok, let's not nitpick). No, for them moving West doesn't make sense, they have their Russophone friend and family network, paid out apartments, they don't want to be uprooted, learn English, pay exorbitant rents in the West, forget it. Moving is not that easy past age 35 or so.

    Replies: @Hyperborean

    Well, then I suppose there is not an easy solution.

    Also, what’s your answer to Dmitry’s question:

    What is your view about allegations – perhaps exaggerated – saying there is an “apartheid system” in Latvia today?

  331. Re: recent wave of Ukrainian immigrants.

    While I agree that N.Euros and E.Euros are not entitled to each others’ space, population, any other resource (and btw N.Euro, Anglo American societies while certainly well cultivated are far from perfect – too much OCD, industry related allergies, obsession with process (taking it too far, that is), physical issues such as lack of robustness among the swpl, that most E.Euros typically don’t have), Americans are very lucky that Ukrainians are coming. I know this might offend as you want from the Isles or Iceland but they are the last Europeans who will be coming. They are also more fertile. Other than very small towns and farming communities the shortage of white kids is visible. Cops are leaving cities because it’s a raw deal for them. The American carnage continues… 🙁

    But the Ukes will become cops and caretakers. That’s a loss for Ukraine, and a gain for the US, even if you don’t feel that way.

    • Replies: @Adam
    @LatW

    America should have remained an essentially Northern European protestant country, as should have Canada. A lot of harm would have been avoided had they done so. People forget the low level ethnic warfare that existed between different groups of European-Americans for well over a century. We did overcome it eventually, but the resulting Euromutt white identity was a prelude to a totally civic identity.

    I'm not a fool though, that ship has sailed long ago. I would take ten million Ukrainians if it meant I didn't have to deal with Somalians at my doorstep. Though even that would not make a lick of difference. America doesn't belong to anyone anymore. It's a marketplace where people like AP can makes lots of money and keep their rooted old world identity while the founding stock of the country is largely left in the dust.

    Replies: @Dmitry, @Mr. Hack

  332. @Konstantin
    @Adam

    They shouldn't as they started to settle in the area pretty much at the same time as latvians

    Replies: @LatW

    Ofc, they didn’t. Be careful, dear, people here read anthropology occasionally. If you meant the Wends, nobody knows who they were, could’ve been a coastal Finnic people, nobody’s seen them and they don’t count. If you meant the Ruyan, then yes great people but closer to Polish or even ancient Prussian than Russian. And they lived in Prussia or Germany.

    Russians other than Old Believers who are very different from modern Russians and who were perfectly integrated already during the 1930’s don’t have deep roots in the Baltics. They are very recent arrivals, some as recent as the late 1980s, 90s and later. Most graves are very recent, too.

    • Replies: @Gerard2
    @LatW


    Russians other than Old Believers who are very different from modern Russians and who were perfectly integrated already during the 1930’s don’t have deep roots in the Baltics. They are very recent arrivals, some as recent as the late 1980s, 90s and later. Most graves are very recent, too.
     
    I would be careful of making stupid statements if from a country (Latvia)that has an American Prime Minister ,who still has American citizenship ,and has lived in the country for 50 years less then some great people who built the country(but yet this piece of shit seeks to impose his views on them-with his best Delaware accent)

    Similar thing with Freiberga( is she even living in Latvia now?) - all just Nazi scum families who escaped to the US, became (mildly-qualified) nutjobs.....surely these puppet countries could elect somebody who has actually lived in Latvia, opposed but "endured" the Soviet years and would be a better representative...instead of one just showing up how demented and plastic the country is?

    Not to mention you have a Russian president now..a traitor to his father but still the president of Latvia

    No voting rights, makes your comments about the options in migration the ethnic russians irrelevant...it more than cancels out the latter. A cynical exploitation of ethnic russian docile, hardworking but relative political apathy is also disgusting.
    , @Konstantin
    @LatW

    But politically Baltic states are among the oldest guberniyas of Russian Empire and if not for terror campaigns in 1905 - 1907 and in 1917 - 1920 resulting in the creation of Baltic States, these territories would saw a massive influx of Russians much earlier. One could say that Baltic people paid for their independence in blood, but this argument goes both ways.

    Replies: @reiner Tor

    , @Konstantin
    @LatW

    This "alien" status nonsense and restriction of political rights of Russians surely won't go unanswered. "Russians always come for their money" (c) Bismark.

    The most obvious and rather mild solution is to have Latvians experience exactly same apartheid for the same number of years (currently 28 years).

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @LatW

  333. Roosh’s eulogy for his deceased sister: http://www.rooshv.com/eulogy

    • Replies: @Denis
    @Thorfinnsson

    Damn. I certainly wasn't expecting that from him.

  334. @LatW
    Re: recent wave of Ukrainian immigrants.

    While I agree that N.Euros and E.Euros are not entitled to each others' space, population, any other resource (and btw N.Euro, Anglo American societies while certainly well cultivated are far from perfect - too much OCD, industry related allergies, obsession with process (taking it too far, that is), physical issues such as lack of robustness among the swpl, that most E.Euros typically don't have), Americans are very lucky that Ukrainians are coming. I know this might offend as you want from the Isles or Iceland but they are the last Europeans who will be coming. They are also more fertile. Other than very small towns and farming communities the shortage of white kids is visible. Cops are leaving cities because it's a raw deal for them. The American carnage continues... :(

    But the Ukes will become cops and caretakers. That's a loss for Ukraine, and a gain for the US, even if you don't feel that way.

    Replies: @Adam

    America should have remained an essentially Northern European protestant country, as should have Canada. A lot of harm would have been avoided had they done so. People forget the low level ethnic warfare that existed between different groups of European-Americans for well over a century. We did overcome it eventually, but the resulting Euromutt white identity was a prelude to a totally civic identity.

    I’m not a fool though, that ship has sailed long ago. I would take ten million Ukrainians if it meant I didn’t have to deal with Somalians at my doorstep. Though even that would not make a lick of difference. America doesn’t belong to anyone anymore. It’s a marketplace where people like AP can makes lots of money and keep their rooted old world identity while the founding stock of the country is largely left in the dust.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @Adam

    Lol how can you say AP anything less than a perfect American in what he writes online? He believes in free market capitalism, private medical insurance and the resurrection of Jesus.

    Replies: @Hyperborean

    , @Mr. Hack
    @Adam


    It’s a marketplace where people like AP can makes lots of money and keep their rooted old world identity while the founding stock of the country is largely left in the dust.
     
    What a ridiculous notion. How in the world do the AP's of the US in any way hinder the development or ability of the 'founding stock' from maintaining their culture in the US? They vote alike (Republican I'm guessing), pray to the same Jesus in churches on Sunday (prefer incensed temples being one small difference), shop at the same stores, workout at the same health clubs and eventually will be playing golf and tennis at the same clubs. They, and especially their kids, speak the same English language on a day to day basis. American assimilation is all pervasive, a little bit of the old world charm is actually what a lot of Anglo-Saxons envy not having within their lives.

    Replies: @Adam

  335. @Adam
    @LatW

    America should have remained an essentially Northern European protestant country, as should have Canada. A lot of harm would have been avoided had they done so. People forget the low level ethnic warfare that existed between different groups of European-Americans for well over a century. We did overcome it eventually, but the resulting Euromutt white identity was a prelude to a totally civic identity.

    I'm not a fool though, that ship has sailed long ago. I would take ten million Ukrainians if it meant I didn't have to deal with Somalians at my doorstep. Though even that would not make a lick of difference. America doesn't belong to anyone anymore. It's a marketplace where people like AP can makes lots of money and keep their rooted old world identity while the founding stock of the country is largely left in the dust.

    Replies: @Dmitry, @Mr. Hack

    Lol how can you say AP anything less than a perfect American in what he writes online? He believes in free market capitalism, private medical insurance and the resurrection of Jesus.

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
    @Dmitry


    Lol how can you say AP anything less than a perfect American in what he writes online? He believes in free market capitalism, private medical insurance and the resurrection of Jesus.
     
    That is what defines America, then America is an abomination that needs to be abolished.

    Replies: @Hyperborean, @Dmitry

  336. @Dmitry
    @Adam

    Lol how can you say AP anything less than a perfect American in what he writes online? He believes in free market capitalism, private medical insurance and the resurrection of Jesus.

    Replies: @Hyperborean

    Lol how can you say AP anything less than a perfect American in what he writes online? He believes in free market capitalism, private medical insurance and the resurrection of Jesus.

    That is what defines America, then America is an abomination that needs to be abolished.

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
    @Hyperborean


    That is what defines America, then America is an abomination that needs to be abolished.
     
    It is common here to mock nostalgia-filled Sovoks, but the longer titular Americans dream of a world they lost a long time ago, the worse the harder it will be for them in the future to organise productively.
    , @Dmitry
    @Hyperborean

    Just some abstract concepts though, not real life.

    What was your impression of America, and things you see with your own eyes, from visiting the country? I have a lot of mixed impressions, as much good as bad.

  337. @Hyperborean
    @Dmitry


    Lol how can you say AP anything less than a perfect American in what he writes online? He believes in free market capitalism, private medical insurance and the resurrection of Jesus.
     
    That is what defines America, then America is an abomination that needs to be abolished.

    Replies: @Hyperborean, @Dmitry

    That is what defines America, then America is an abomination that needs to be abolished.

    It is common here to mock nostalgia-filled Sovoks, but the longer titular Americans dream of a world they lost a long time ago, the worse the harder it will be for them in the future to organise productively.

  338. @Dmitry
    @reiner Tor


    Why the plural? I only called you an autistic normie, did I call anyone else that?

     

    I've seen you refer to yourself as this, which is a good sign, since it shows some self-awareness. Normie brain does not chase their own tail on endless strange conspiracy theories. This makes your comments entertaining, so when you start projecting and then attacking autism it seems like you are engaging in self-hatred.

    I like your comments generally, but you need people point out your blindspots and overliteralism.

    people tend to believe in things which are good for them.
     
    Of course, the ideologies can be more attractive to some demographics for this reason.

    But to reduce the reason people believed Marxism to "Jewish racial self-interest", is nonsense.
    You'll have to explain all non-Jews, from Engels or Lenin, or China, et al, had some separate reason for believing Marxism.

    If people believe everything for racial self-interest, why are there so many liberals today who want to punish their own races.

    Also there is the fact for Marxism, that Marxism wanted to dissolve Jews as a separate nationality, and was largely successful to do that where it was an official ideology. Moreover, Jews which believed Marxism, usually did not have group identity as Jews, and were effectively acolytes of a new religion. Marx himself had an attitude to Jews like Ron Unz on here.

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson, @reiner Tor

    I don’t think it’s a productive conversation. Have a nice Tuesday!

  339. Our current “leaders” are pathetic, but hopefully the next leaders in Europe over the next decades will heed this advice from our supposed enemies who are more realistic:

    How can the bloc be more united? First, the EU needs to assert its independence. Sometimes, taking into account the collective interest, Europe has to yield or partly yield to Washington’s requests which they don’t like.

    During the US-led invasion of Iraq, France and Germany opposed the US. Consequently, Washington broke with the two countries and labeled them as “Old Europe.” The US also formed a coalition with the UK and mustered “New Europe” to teach France and Germany a lesson in diplomacy.

    Another weak point is Europe is too dependent on the US on security and is constrained by NATO. The EU’s independence can’t be realized if it is dependent on security.

    Third, it seems that Europe and the US share the same ideology. However, the truth is, they don’t. Too much US national interests have been plugged into Western ideology, where the interests of Europe are marginalized. Hence, the so-called universal values of the West actually represent what the US wants.

    Europe has become numb under the rule of the US, but some Europeans are sensitive to China’s rise, claiming China is challenging the strategic interests of Europe. They don’t dare to provoke Washington, so they use Beijing as an excuse for Europe’s problems.

    Germany sells more cars in China than in the US. Beijing didn’t set extra limits on top of existing rules, but continued to reduce tariffs on them. China has never demanded that Germany and Russia stop building natural gas pipelines or requested EU companies to quit Iran. It is the US which is doing that kind of thing.

    The EU can compete with the US in economy and technology, but some want to maintain the EU’s secondary status by excluding China. Either the EU forges ahead or will fall behind. Suppressing China won’t bring the EU a promising future.

    The world is changing, and the EU should identify its problems and make strategic adjustments. US interests are rooted in Western opinion. The EU shouldn’t be guided by such opinion, or it will get lost.

    http://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1143407.shtml

  340. @Thorfinnsson
    @Dmitry

    Engels was a sex-crazed degenerate and Lenin was a one man coalition of the fringes (German, Swedish, Kalmyk, Jewish) to use Steve Sailer's term.

    A major common denominator today with ethnomasochistic (John Derbyshire's term) white liberals who seek to punish or even eradicate the white race itself is weakness. If you look at the physiognomy of white liberals they are usually fundamentally weak people. The men are effeminate and the women ugly.

    Thus they are engaged in virtue signalling. Instead of advocating directly for their interests they seek to bolster their social status and occupational success by loudly repeating dominant, high-status social norms.

    Replies: @Dmitry, @DFH, @reiner Tor

    The vast majority of communist believers were underdogs, who hoped that their (or their groups’) positions would improve under the coming communist utopia. This is true of the majority of communists (who were poor), and some more elite third world leaders (though communist leaders were usually at best middle class). Jews fit this pattern to an extent, but economically speaking they were already top dogs.

    It’s often asserted that Jewish communists never had a Jewish identity, but it’s often difficult to tell, because Jews don’t tell others about their identity. (Nor do they necessarily have the self-awareness to know it themselves if they are motivated by their ethnic identity.) For example Molotov’s wife showed zero signs of a Jewish identity, until she met Golda Meyersson (later Meir) in 1948 and immediately broke in tears. The Moscow synagogue was swarmed by a crowd of Jews several times its capacity when she arrived there – presumably this included any number of Jews who had previously never shown a sign of Jewish ethnic identity. Voroshilov’s wife similarly astonished her family members in 1948 when she announced that “finally we have a country.” At first they didn’t understand who the “we” referred to – she hadn’t shown any signs of a Jewish ethnic identity before. The Hungarian minister of culture (and secretary responsible for culture in the Political Committee of the Hungarian Socialist Workers’ Party) started out as a Zionist, while the communist vice chairman of the Hungarian National Bank (largely responsible for the indebtedness of the country by 1990) quickly discovered his Jewish roots in 1990 and left for Israel.

    Communism clearly wasn’t the dominant ideology of Jews, but it was attractive to a disproportionate number of them, especially considering their economic position. (I.e. they were not poor working class.) This is the reason why Hungary in 1921 made a law (touted in Hungary as the “first racial law against Jews”; I’m not sure if it’s known outside Hungary) which restricted Jews to 5% of students in higher education – they didn’t want to train the leadership of the next communist government.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @reiner Tor

    Marxism was produced by Jewish culture assimilated to German philosophy. It contains Jewish eschatology (as also Hegel), and is written in the clever way to disarm 19th century scepticism and rationality.

    Educated Jews, were not particularly attracted by Russian nihilism, and earlier socialism, and their economic interest would be a reforming meritocracy bourgeoisie ruled country, as in England.

    But Marxism was cerebral enough for many (and many parts were not correctly dismantled until much more intelligent men published like Hayek) and contained echos of their religious culture (for both Jews and Christians, who had recently secularized - usually one generation earlier). People who believed Marxism, actually believed it. You don't need any secret motives, as it's a very well designed and persuasive system, which seems to explain everything, and also satisfies the same religious needs which had been lost by recent secularization.

    In terms of racial interest, it offered explicitly Jews, to dissolve their Jewish racial position, and assimilate to a new, living religion (emotionally similar to Christianity, but with impact in a real world).

    Unlike generations of Jews before - Jews who believed Marxism, intermarried with Slavs without sadness, and saw Jews as a religious problem, dissolved the Jewish religion, and started to dissolve all customs which historically separated Jews from Russians, Ukrainians, etc.

    Obviously most Jews were not Marxist, but once in USSR, their dividers from society are constantly dissolved, and they can't follow any of the primitive Jewish differentiators (like circumcision). Eventually 80% are marrying non-Jews, and without assortative mating (Israel today is full of gopniks from all shits of the former USSR).

    Is this racial interest?

    Equivalent is if some American intellectual whites, partly for their self-interest, find fashionable an fanatical new ideology, written by a white racial-intermmarryier, which along with many other goals, aims to dissolve "whites" as the separate identity, and at the same time they start to intermarry with blacks. Some of the "intellectuals" are politically powerful as result of revolution, and join as part of the multiracial rulers of a country where dividers of "white" separate identity are removed, so with a result that most whites marry with blacks, and whites have lost white identity in some predictable authoritarian dystopia.

    And then after various genocides, some of whites change their opinion, and go to a white country, but by this time they do not know white customs and have a lot of black blood, and are not allowed to marry official whites in the traditional religion.

    It would be quite a strange "American white nationalism".

    Perhaps later, when awhole system collapsed, blacks would want to blame white partly originators of the disaster. They could say these were secret white nationalists following a white nationalist conspiracy. . .

    Replies: @Dmitry, @reiner Tor

    , @Mr. XYZ
    @reiner Tor


    Communism clearly wasn’t the dominant ideology of Jews, but it was attractive to a disproportionate number of them, especially considering their economic position. (I.e. they were not poor working class.) This is the reason why Hungary in 1921 made a law (touted in Hungary as the “first racial law against Jews”; I’m not sure if it’s known outside Hungary) which restricted Jews to 5% of students in higher education – they didn’t want to train the leadership of the next communist government.
     
    In regards to Jewish quotas, as much as the Left might not want to hear this, they actually make sense from a blank slatist perspective. After all, if there are genuinely no genetic IQ differences between different groups of people, then it makes sense to give groups with a lower average IQ preferential treatment when it comes to things such as university admissions, employment, et cetera.
  341. @reiner Tor
    @Thorfinnsson

    The vast majority of communist believers were underdogs, who hoped that their (or their groups’) positions would improve under the coming communist utopia. This is true of the majority of communists (who were poor), and some more elite third world leaders (though communist leaders were usually at best middle class). Jews fit this pattern to an extent, but economically speaking they were already top dogs.

    It’s often asserted that Jewish communists never had a Jewish identity, but it’s often difficult to tell, because Jews don’t tell others about their identity. (Nor do they necessarily have the self-awareness to know it themselves if they are motivated by their ethnic identity.) For example Molotov’s wife showed zero signs of a Jewish identity, until she met Golda Meyersson (later Meir) in 1948 and immediately broke in tears. The Moscow synagogue was swarmed by a crowd of Jews several times its capacity when she arrived there - presumably this included any number of Jews who had previously never shown a sign of Jewish ethnic identity. Voroshilov’s wife similarly astonished her family members in 1948 when she announced that “finally we have a country.” At first they didn’t understand who the “we” referred to - she hadn’t shown any signs of a Jewish ethnic identity before. The Hungarian minister of culture (and secretary responsible for culture in the Political Committee of the Hungarian Socialist Workers’ Party) started out as a Zionist, while the communist vice chairman of the Hungarian National Bank (largely responsible for the indebtedness of the country by 1990) quickly discovered his Jewish roots in 1990 and left for Israel.

    Communism clearly wasn’t the dominant ideology of Jews, but it was attractive to a disproportionate number of them, especially considering their economic position. (I.e. they were not poor working class.) This is the reason why Hungary in 1921 made a law (touted in Hungary as the “first racial law against Jews”; I’m not sure if it’s known outside Hungary) which restricted Jews to 5% of students in higher education - they didn’t want to train the leadership of the next communist government.

    Replies: @Dmitry, @Mr. XYZ

    Marxism was produced by Jewish culture assimilated to German philosophy. It contains Jewish eschatology (as also Hegel), and is written in the clever way to disarm 19th century scepticism and rationality.

    Educated Jews, were not particularly attracted by Russian nihilism, and earlier socialism, and their economic interest would be a reforming meritocracy bourgeoisie ruled country, as in England.

    But Marxism was cerebral enough for many (and many parts were not correctly dismantled until much more intelligent men published like Hayek) and contained echos of their religious culture (for both Jews and Christians, who had recently secularized – usually one generation earlier). People who believed Marxism, actually believed it. You don’t need any secret motives, as it’s a very well designed and persuasive system, which seems to explain everything, and also satisfies the same religious needs which had been lost by recent secularization.

    In terms of racial interest, it offered explicitly Jews, to dissolve their Jewish racial position, and assimilate to a new, living religion (emotionally similar to Christianity, but with impact in a real world).

    Unlike generations of Jews before – Jews who believed Marxism, intermarried with Slavs without sadness, and saw Jews as a religious problem, dissolved the Jewish religion, and started to dissolve all customs which historically separated Jews from Russians, Ukrainians, etc.

    Obviously most Jews were not Marxist, but once in USSR, their dividers from society are constantly dissolved, and they can’t follow any of the primitive Jewish differentiators (like circumcision). Eventually 80% are marrying non-Jews, and without assortative mating (Israel today is full of gopniks from all shits of the former USSR).

    Is this racial interest?

    Equivalent is if some American intellectual whites, partly for their self-interest, find fashionable an fanatical new ideology, written by a white racial-intermmarryier, which along with many other goals, aims to dissolve “whites” as the separate identity, and at the same time they start to intermarry with blacks. Some of the “intellectuals” are politically powerful as result of revolution, and join as part of the multiracial rulers of a country where dividers of “white” separate identity are removed, so with a result that most whites marry with blacks, and whites have lost white identity in some predictable authoritarian dystopia.

    And then after various genocides, some of whites change their opinion, and go to a white country, but by this time they do not know white customs and have a lot of black blood, and are not allowed to marry official whites in the traditional religion.

    It would be quite a strange “American white nationalism”.

    Perhaps later, when awhole system collapsed, blacks would want to blame white partly originators of the disaster. They could say these were secret white nationalists following a white nationalist conspiracy. . .

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @Dmitry


    Eventually 80% are marrying non-Jews, and without assortative mating (Israel today is full of gopniks from all shits of the former USSR).
     
    This meant to write "gopniks from all shitholes of the former USSR", especially Ukraine - but shits sounds good as well.

    In the USSR, Jews had lower social status than normal people, and they didn't have the same economic advantages as they have in capitalism. Combined with geographic restrictions and ban on their religion - this was the way to make them mass intermarry with Ukrainian gopniks, which they have done, from the descendants you can see in Israeli ghettos.

    Replies: @Epigon, @melanf

    , @reiner Tor
    @Dmitry


    People who believed Marxism, actually believed it.
     
    Did I ever say the opposite?

    People always honestly believe and feel things. Poor people honestly believe in redistribution, and as they get richer, they honestly start believing in laissez-faire capitalism, low taxes and other similar things. Most people don’t even notice how conveniently their sincere-to-God beliefs tend to follow their interests.

    Another example might be women marrying for money: they very often honestly fall in love with the millionaires.

    You don’t need any secret motives
     
    You need an explanation why more Jews followed it than gentiles, proportionately, when Jews were richer, on average.

    Replies: @Dmitry

  342. Craig Murray did an update on the Skripal story a few weeks ago. From the new information that has come out, we now know that the first person to find the Skripals on that park bench was — I kid you not — the Chief Nurse of the British Army! Murray also writes that a prominent BBC journalist working on the story, Mark Urban, was in the army with Skripal’s MI6 handler, Pablo Miller. And this is merely the tip of the iceberg.

    My best guess at this time is that Boshirov and Petrov, the two GRU grunts, were in Salisbury on some shady business or other, possibly related to the NATO exercise that was held in the area at the time, and that they were framed by the British government to turn up the heat on Russia. The Skripals were probably in on it and were not poisoned by Novichok. There are some loose ends to this explanation, but taking a few steps back from the hysteria, I don’t find it so very odd.

    As with the Iraqi WMD hoax, and now the Russiagate conspiracy theory, this story shows that, far from honoring the democratic principles that they claim to defend, our governments are hard at work subverting the press for their own uses and keeping the man on the street actively disinformed about what happens in his country. Just think of what an enormous betrayal that is.

    https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2019/03/pure-ten-points-i-just-cant-believe-about-the-official-skripal-narrative/

  343. @Hyperborean
    @Dmitry


    Lol how can you say AP anything less than a perfect American in what he writes online? He believes in free market capitalism, private medical insurance and the resurrection of Jesus.
     
    That is what defines America, then America is an abomination that needs to be abolished.

    Replies: @Hyperborean, @Dmitry

    Just some abstract concepts though, not real life.

    What was your impression of America, and things you see with your own eyes, from visiting the country? I have a lot of mixed impressions, as much good as bad.

  344. @Dmitry
    @reiner Tor

    Marxism was produced by Jewish culture assimilated to German philosophy. It contains Jewish eschatology (as also Hegel), and is written in the clever way to disarm 19th century scepticism and rationality.

    Educated Jews, were not particularly attracted by Russian nihilism, and earlier socialism, and their economic interest would be a reforming meritocracy bourgeoisie ruled country, as in England.

    But Marxism was cerebral enough for many (and many parts were not correctly dismantled until much more intelligent men published like Hayek) and contained echos of their religious culture (for both Jews and Christians, who had recently secularized - usually one generation earlier). People who believed Marxism, actually believed it. You don't need any secret motives, as it's a very well designed and persuasive system, which seems to explain everything, and also satisfies the same religious needs which had been lost by recent secularization.

    In terms of racial interest, it offered explicitly Jews, to dissolve their Jewish racial position, and assimilate to a new, living religion (emotionally similar to Christianity, but with impact in a real world).

    Unlike generations of Jews before - Jews who believed Marxism, intermarried with Slavs without sadness, and saw Jews as a religious problem, dissolved the Jewish religion, and started to dissolve all customs which historically separated Jews from Russians, Ukrainians, etc.

    Obviously most Jews were not Marxist, but once in USSR, their dividers from society are constantly dissolved, and they can't follow any of the primitive Jewish differentiators (like circumcision). Eventually 80% are marrying non-Jews, and without assortative mating (Israel today is full of gopniks from all shits of the former USSR).

    Is this racial interest?

    Equivalent is if some American intellectual whites, partly for their self-interest, find fashionable an fanatical new ideology, written by a white racial-intermmarryier, which along with many other goals, aims to dissolve "whites" as the separate identity, and at the same time they start to intermarry with blacks. Some of the "intellectuals" are politically powerful as result of revolution, and join as part of the multiracial rulers of a country where dividers of "white" separate identity are removed, so with a result that most whites marry with blacks, and whites have lost white identity in some predictable authoritarian dystopia.

    And then after various genocides, some of whites change their opinion, and go to a white country, but by this time they do not know white customs and have a lot of black blood, and are not allowed to marry official whites in the traditional religion.

    It would be quite a strange "American white nationalism".

    Perhaps later, when awhole system collapsed, blacks would want to blame white partly originators of the disaster. They could say these were secret white nationalists following a white nationalist conspiracy. . .

    Replies: @Dmitry, @reiner Tor

    Eventually 80% are marrying non-Jews, and without assortative mating (Israel today is full of gopniks from all shits of the former USSR).

    This meant to write “gopniks from all shitholes of the former USSR”, especially Ukraine – but shits sounds good as well.

    In the USSR, Jews had lower social status than normal people, and they didn’t have the same economic advantages as they have in capitalism. Combined with geographic restrictions and ban on their religion – this was the way to make them mass intermarry with Ukrainian gopniks, which they have done, from the descendants you can see in Israeli ghettos.

    • Replies: @Epigon
    @Dmitry


    Israel today is full of gopniks from all shits of the former USSR
     

    Jews had lower social status than normal people
     
    Shlomo overload
    , @melanf
    @Dmitry


    In the USSR, Jews had lower social status than normal people
     
    This is an incorrect statement, to put it mildly.

    Replies: @Dmitry

  345. @Dmitry
    @reiner Tor

    Marxism was produced by Jewish culture assimilated to German philosophy. It contains Jewish eschatology (as also Hegel), and is written in the clever way to disarm 19th century scepticism and rationality.

    Educated Jews, were not particularly attracted by Russian nihilism, and earlier socialism, and their economic interest would be a reforming meritocracy bourgeoisie ruled country, as in England.

    But Marxism was cerebral enough for many (and many parts were not correctly dismantled until much more intelligent men published like Hayek) and contained echos of their religious culture (for both Jews and Christians, who had recently secularized - usually one generation earlier). People who believed Marxism, actually believed it. You don't need any secret motives, as it's a very well designed and persuasive system, which seems to explain everything, and also satisfies the same religious needs which had been lost by recent secularization.

    In terms of racial interest, it offered explicitly Jews, to dissolve their Jewish racial position, and assimilate to a new, living religion (emotionally similar to Christianity, but with impact in a real world).

    Unlike generations of Jews before - Jews who believed Marxism, intermarried with Slavs without sadness, and saw Jews as a religious problem, dissolved the Jewish religion, and started to dissolve all customs which historically separated Jews from Russians, Ukrainians, etc.

    Obviously most Jews were not Marxist, but once in USSR, their dividers from society are constantly dissolved, and they can't follow any of the primitive Jewish differentiators (like circumcision). Eventually 80% are marrying non-Jews, and without assortative mating (Israel today is full of gopniks from all shits of the former USSR).

    Is this racial interest?

    Equivalent is if some American intellectual whites, partly for their self-interest, find fashionable an fanatical new ideology, written by a white racial-intermmarryier, which along with many other goals, aims to dissolve "whites" as the separate identity, and at the same time they start to intermarry with blacks. Some of the "intellectuals" are politically powerful as result of revolution, and join as part of the multiracial rulers of a country where dividers of "white" separate identity are removed, so with a result that most whites marry with blacks, and whites have lost white identity in some predictable authoritarian dystopia.

    And then after various genocides, some of whites change their opinion, and go to a white country, but by this time they do not know white customs and have a lot of black blood, and are not allowed to marry official whites in the traditional religion.

    It would be quite a strange "American white nationalism".

    Perhaps later, when awhole system collapsed, blacks would want to blame white partly originators of the disaster. They could say these were secret white nationalists following a white nationalist conspiracy. . .

    Replies: @Dmitry, @reiner Tor

    People who believed Marxism, actually believed it.

    Did I ever say the opposite?

    People always honestly believe and feel things. Poor people honestly believe in redistribution, and as they get richer, they honestly start believing in laissez-faire capitalism, low taxes and other similar things. Most people don’t even notice how conveniently their sincere-to-God beliefs tend to follow their interests.

    Another example might be women marrying for money: they very often honestly fall in love with the millionaires.

    You don’t need any secret motives

    You need an explanation why more Jews followed it than gentiles, proportionately, when Jews were richer, on average.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @reiner Tor


    You need an explanation why more Jews followed it than gentiles, proportionately, when Jews were richer, on average.

     

    I discussed in text above.

    1. It provided opportunity for Jews to dissolve their Jewish identity, and convert to a universal religion, in which the lamb will lie with the lion.

    If belonging to group is a burden, there is motive for many to dissolve the group.

    Interest of many Jews in the early 20th century, was to leave being Jews. A significant proportion of Jews in the early 20th century, did not enjoy being Jews. They were also mass converting to Christianity in this era, although Christianity was dying at the same time, while Marxism was a living faith, which would produce real external changes, such as a universal society in which they would be citizens of this beautiful future utopia (in which, according to Marx, you could go fish in the morning, and then debate philosophy in the afternoon).

    2. Marxism is Jewish eschatology, transposed on German philosophy, and re-written in an materialist way that educated, "rational", post-19th century, people, can believe.

    I don't think Jews were disproportionately interested in Russian nihilism or the utopias of Charles Fourier. But Marx's vision is also Biblical, and is result of a Jewish writer who had rejected his ancestor's religion, but unconsciously transposed a lot of this religion onto a German philosophy, that itself had a biblical, supernatural structure (just God is revealing himself in Hegelian dialectics, hidden in economic history).

    Secular people (with Christian and Jewish parents) 100 years were not like secular people today, where even our great-grandparents were not actually religious.

    In the early 20th century, the rational part of the mind rejected religion, but the whole imagination and unconscious was still much more full of biblical visions and responded emotionally to these

    Replies: @for-the-record

  346. @Thorfinnsson
    Roosh's eulogy for his deceased sister: www.rooshv.com/eulogy

    Replies: @Denis

    Damn. I certainly wasn’t expecting that from him.

  347. @reiner Tor
    @Dmitry


    People who believed Marxism, actually believed it.
     
    Did I ever say the opposite?

    People always honestly believe and feel things. Poor people honestly believe in redistribution, and as they get richer, they honestly start believing in laissez-faire capitalism, low taxes and other similar things. Most people don’t even notice how conveniently their sincere-to-God beliefs tend to follow their interests.

    Another example might be women marrying for money: they very often honestly fall in love with the millionaires.

    You don’t need any secret motives
     
    You need an explanation why more Jews followed it than gentiles, proportionately, when Jews were richer, on average.

    Replies: @Dmitry

    You need an explanation why more Jews followed it than gentiles, proportionately, when Jews were richer, on average.

    I discussed in text above.

    1. It provided opportunity for Jews to dissolve their Jewish identity, and convert to a universal religion, in which the lamb will lie with the lion.

    If belonging to group is a burden, there is motive for many to dissolve the group.

    Interest of many Jews in the early 20th century, was to leave being Jews. A significant proportion of Jews in the early 20th century, did not enjoy being Jews. They were also mass converting to Christianity in this era, although Christianity was dying at the same time, while Marxism was a living faith, which would produce real external changes, such as a universal society in which they would be citizens of this beautiful future utopia (in which, according to Marx, you could go fish in the morning, and then debate philosophy in the afternoon).

    2. Marxism is Jewish eschatology, transposed on German philosophy, and re-written in an materialist way that educated, “rational”, post-19th century, people, can believe.

    I don’t think Jews were disproportionately interested in Russian nihilism or the utopias of Charles Fourier. But Marx’s vision is also Biblical, and is result of a Jewish writer who had rejected his ancestor’s religion, but unconsciously transposed a lot of this religion onto a German philosophy, that itself had a biblical, supernatural structure (just God is revealing himself in Hegelian dialectics, hidden in economic history).

    Secular people (with Christian and Jewish parents) 100 years were not like secular people today, where even our great-grandparents were not actually religious.

    In the early 20th century, the rational part of the mind rejected religion, but the whole imagination and unconscious was still much more full of biblical visions and responded emotionally to these

    • Replies: @for-the-record
    @Dmitry

    Very coherent explanation of Jewish (disproportionate) propensity for Marxism, in fact it is quite similar to that in Yuri Slezkine's The Jewish Century (strongly recommended if you haven't already read it).

    Replies: @Dmitry

  348. @Dmitry
    @Dmitry


    Eventually 80% are marrying non-Jews, and without assortative mating (Israel today is full of gopniks from all shits of the former USSR).
     
    This meant to write "gopniks from all shitholes of the former USSR", especially Ukraine - but shits sounds good as well.

    In the USSR, Jews had lower social status than normal people, and they didn't have the same economic advantages as they have in capitalism. Combined with geographic restrictions and ban on their religion - this was the way to make them mass intermarry with Ukrainian gopniks, which they have done, from the descendants you can see in Israeli ghettos.

    Replies: @Epigon, @melanf

    Israel today is full of gopniks from all shits of the former USSR

    Jews had lower social status than normal people

    Shlomo overload

  349. @Adam
    @LatW

    America should have remained an essentially Northern European protestant country, as should have Canada. A lot of harm would have been avoided had they done so. People forget the low level ethnic warfare that existed between different groups of European-Americans for well over a century. We did overcome it eventually, but the resulting Euromutt white identity was a prelude to a totally civic identity.

    I'm not a fool though, that ship has sailed long ago. I would take ten million Ukrainians if it meant I didn't have to deal with Somalians at my doorstep. Though even that would not make a lick of difference. America doesn't belong to anyone anymore. It's a marketplace where people like AP can makes lots of money and keep their rooted old world identity while the founding stock of the country is largely left in the dust.

    Replies: @Dmitry, @Mr. Hack

    It’s a marketplace where people like AP can makes lots of money and keep their rooted old world identity while the founding stock of the country is largely left in the dust.

    What a ridiculous notion. How in the world do the AP’s of the US in any way hinder the development or ability of the ‘founding stock’ from maintaining their culture in the US? They vote alike (Republican I’m guessing), pray to the same Jesus in churches on Sunday (prefer incensed temples being one small difference), shop at the same stores, workout at the same health clubs and eventually will be playing golf and tennis at the same clubs. They, and especially their kids, speak the same English language on a day to day basis. American assimilation is all pervasive, a little bit of the old world charm is actually what a lot of Anglo-Saxons envy not having within their lives.

    • Replies: @Adam
    @Mr. Hack

    The US is where different groups with different identities compete to make money. There's no American culture and the English language is just a trade language. The titular 'American nation' has been reduced to just one of many groups in the US, which the ruling class and other nations are largely hostile to.

    I don't claim that Ukrainian Americans harm America in any meaningful way. I'm just bantzing AP, who has a strong Ukrainian identity and a homeland to fall back to while he sits comfortably in the US. People like me don't have that privilege.

    Replies: @LatW, @anonymous coward, @AP

  350. @Mr. Hack
    @Adam


    It’s a marketplace where people like AP can makes lots of money and keep their rooted old world identity while the founding stock of the country is largely left in the dust.
     
    What a ridiculous notion. How in the world do the AP's of the US in any way hinder the development or ability of the 'founding stock' from maintaining their culture in the US? They vote alike (Republican I'm guessing), pray to the same Jesus in churches on Sunday (prefer incensed temples being one small difference), shop at the same stores, workout at the same health clubs and eventually will be playing golf and tennis at the same clubs. They, and especially their kids, speak the same English language on a day to day basis. American assimilation is all pervasive, a little bit of the old world charm is actually what a lot of Anglo-Saxons envy not having within their lives.

    Replies: @Adam

    The US is where different groups with different identities compete to make money. There’s no American culture and the English language is just a trade language. The titular ‘American nation’ has been reduced to just one of many groups in the US, which the ruling class and other nations are largely hostile to.

    I don’t claim that Ukrainian Americans harm America in any meaningful way. I’m just bantzing AP, who has a strong Ukrainian identity and a homeland to fall back to while he sits comfortably in the US. People like me don’t have that privilege.

    • Replies: @LatW
    @Adam

    You have a point, it is much more competitive now, and yes it is rigged (but more along generational lines).

    And E.Euros have not been the most extractive of the US.

    People such as AP do well anywhere because they're intelligent and are conscientious about their choices.

    It's more of a class thing. And the titular nation has done nicely from the stock market rally and asset appreciation. Many founders of tech companies are Scots Irish & Anglos. Bezos' real name is Jorgensen, and the founder of Snapchat is like a 30 yo Anglo.

    That they have chosen an ideological confrontation with the Anglo masses is sad and yes it's not a real nation anymore that way. Your original idea of the nation is totally fine by me. It would be smaller, with much less global appeal which I'm sure you'd prefer and probably competing with other sizable nations on the continent.

    , @anonymous coward
    @Adam


    AP, who has a strong Ukrainian identity
     
    AP knows nothing at all about the Ukraine. He has a Galician identity. I.e., a Jewish-Polish mutt.
    , @AP
    @Adam

    My people never took welfare, paid taxes and in the case of my father employed dozens of well-paid Americans in his company. They also vote Republican and for Trump for the same reasons most people here did. But yes - my father in his 70s says he'll be fine but we or our children can always go to Ukraine if the Left sinks America.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @Gerard2, @Mr. XYZ

  351. @Adam
    @Dmitry

    I'm not exactly sympathetic to Latvia, but Russians in the Baltics should learn the local languages, which I believe is the main barrier to citizenship.

    Apartheid was a good thing by the way.

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @Konstantin, @anonymous coward

    Russians in the Baltics should learn the local languages

    Russian is a local Baltic language.

    E.g., The city known as ‘Tartu’ was founded in 1030 by (the Russian ruler) Yaroslav I under the name of ‘Yuryev’.

    The Baltic ethnicities and countries really only exist thanks to Russian magnanimity.

  352. @Dmitry
    @Dmitry


    Eventually 80% are marrying non-Jews, and without assortative mating (Israel today is full of gopniks from all shits of the former USSR).
     
    This meant to write "gopniks from all shitholes of the former USSR", especially Ukraine - but shits sounds good as well.

    In the USSR, Jews had lower social status than normal people, and they didn't have the same economic advantages as they have in capitalism. Combined with geographic restrictions and ban on their religion - this was the way to make them mass intermarry with Ukrainian gopniks, which they have done, from the descendants you can see in Israeli ghettos.

    Replies: @Epigon, @melanf

    In the USSR, Jews had lower social status than normal people

    This is an incorrect statement, to put it mildly.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @melanf

    It can be simply shown.

    When parents of two different nationalities had children, they could choose one of two parents' nationality for the children.

    In families where one parent is Jewish and the other parent is not-Jewish, they would choose commonly not-Jewish nationality for their children.

    One of my grandfather's was Jewish as his mother was a Jewess (so in the most strict sense he was the Jew, as the mother is the only important criteria for Jews). So he was a real Jew. However, all his documents it is written, his nationality is Russian, because his parents' chose his father's nationality instead of his mother's. They were not antisemitic. It was just better in the USSR, to be Russian, than to be Jew.

    And this was ubiquitous for the Jews, you can see: in forums for people who want to apply for repatriation/work visas for Israel today, hundreds of people are complaining they had a Jewish ancestor, but their documentation does not correspond. People in the USSR, did not want their children to be Jews, when they had a choice.

    Replies: @Gerard2, @melanf, @Mr. XYZ

  353. @Dmitry
    @reiner Tor


    You need an explanation why more Jews followed it than gentiles, proportionately, when Jews were richer, on average.

     

    I discussed in text above.

    1. It provided opportunity for Jews to dissolve their Jewish identity, and convert to a universal religion, in which the lamb will lie with the lion.

    If belonging to group is a burden, there is motive for many to dissolve the group.

    Interest of many Jews in the early 20th century, was to leave being Jews. A significant proportion of Jews in the early 20th century, did not enjoy being Jews. They were also mass converting to Christianity in this era, although Christianity was dying at the same time, while Marxism was a living faith, which would produce real external changes, such as a universal society in which they would be citizens of this beautiful future utopia (in which, according to Marx, you could go fish in the morning, and then debate philosophy in the afternoon).

    2. Marxism is Jewish eschatology, transposed on German philosophy, and re-written in an materialist way that educated, "rational", post-19th century, people, can believe.

    I don't think Jews were disproportionately interested in Russian nihilism or the utopias of Charles Fourier. But Marx's vision is also Biblical, and is result of a Jewish writer who had rejected his ancestor's religion, but unconsciously transposed a lot of this religion onto a German philosophy, that itself had a biblical, supernatural structure (just God is revealing himself in Hegelian dialectics, hidden in economic history).

    Secular people (with Christian and Jewish parents) 100 years were not like secular people today, where even our great-grandparents were not actually religious.

    In the early 20th century, the rational part of the mind rejected religion, but the whole imagination and unconscious was still much more full of biblical visions and responded emotionally to these

    Replies: @for-the-record

    Very coherent explanation of Jewish (disproportionate) propensity for Marxism, in fact it is quite similar to that in Yuri Slezkine’s The Jewish Century (strongly recommended if you haven’t already read it).

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @for-the-record

    Thanks.

    I didn't read this book about Jews though, and probably it would not be so interesting for me.

    I'm interested in any book recommended about Marx and Marxism, though. Generally, I quite like reading any textbooks or essays on Marxism (it always seems to be me, the 19th century's worst hacker, and Marxism like a beautifully designed, computer virus).

    In English, I found this one which looks good :
    https://libcom.org/files/decrypted_Isaiah-Berlin-Karl-Marx-His-Life-And-Environment.pdf

    Replies: @for-the-record

  354. @Adam
    @Mr. Hack

    The US is where different groups with different identities compete to make money. There's no American culture and the English language is just a trade language. The titular 'American nation' has been reduced to just one of many groups in the US, which the ruling class and other nations are largely hostile to.

    I don't claim that Ukrainian Americans harm America in any meaningful way. I'm just bantzing AP, who has a strong Ukrainian identity and a homeland to fall back to while he sits comfortably in the US. People like me don't have that privilege.

    Replies: @LatW, @anonymous coward, @AP

    You have a point, it is much more competitive now, and yes it is rigged (but more along generational lines).

    And E.Euros have not been the most extractive of the US.

    People such as AP do well anywhere because they’re intelligent and are conscientious about their choices.

    It’s more of a class thing. And the titular nation has done nicely from the stock market rally and asset appreciation. Many founders of tech companies are Scots Irish & Anglos. Bezos’ real name is Jorgensen, and the founder of Snapchat is like a 30 yo Anglo.

    That they have chosen an ideological confrontation with the Anglo masses is sad and yes it’s not a real nation anymore that way. Your original idea of the nation is totally fine by me. It would be smaller, with much less global appeal which I’m sure you’d prefer and probably competing with other sizable nations on the continent.

    • Agree: Adam
  355. @melanf
    @Dmitry


    In the USSR, Jews had lower social status than normal people
     
    This is an incorrect statement, to put it mildly.

    Replies: @Dmitry

    It can be simply shown.

    When parents of two different nationalities had children, they could choose one of two parents’ nationality for the children.

    In families where one parent is Jewish and the other parent is not-Jewish, they would choose commonly not-Jewish nationality for their children.

    One of my grandfather’s was Jewish as his mother was a Jewess (so in the most strict sense he was the Jew, as the mother is the only important criteria for Jews). So he was a real Jew. However, all his documents it is written, his nationality is Russian, because his parents’ chose his father’s nationality instead of his mother’s. They were not antisemitic. It was just better in the USSR, to be Russian, than to be Jew.

    And this was ubiquitous for the Jews, you can see: in forums for people who want to apply for repatriation/work visas for Israel today, hundreds of people are complaining they had a Jewish ancestor, but their documentation does not correspond. People in the USSR, did not want their children to be Jews, when they had a choice.

    • Replies: @Gerard2
    @Dmitry

    About a zillion jews in the west seem to have experienced "delayed" learning of their Jewish ancestry. Nothing USSR-centric about this type of thing at all. I would guess into the hundreds of thousands to a few million of those with both parents jewish who have anglised their name to the point of eliminating all Jewishness in it. I would guess they felt holding an outright jewish name would have harmed their chances of upward social mobility.


    Two major events composed near-entirely by jews, which instead of giving numerous ammunition to those lazily ascribing international jewry at work in everything...gives non-ending talk of Russia at work in everything

    The US spy ring in the 1940's/50's was near all jewish , but there was zero backlash for jewry....and a massive backlash for the USSR

    Russiagate is basically more jewish than Kosher-pie if you look at the personalities (alleged ) to have been involved (plus the odd guy from Azerbaijan), but what does it become instead of about the jews? All about Russia

    You can only praise the skill of the jewish lobby in the US for this act of misdirection

    It's similar brainwashing done on issues such as MH-17 getting downed .......people are lead to subconsiously eliminate all sensible thinking processes .I would guess 95% of westerners hearing about it never had any thought whatsoever about the Ukrainian military, intelligence and political establishment and what role they may have played in it. Because it's an irrelevant prostitute , fake country ....the cognitive processes isn't there and they are lead to believe it was either "the west" or "Russia" who could have done it..and it couldn't possibly be the west.All the while ANY technical knowledge or critical thinking are eliminated

    , @melanf
    @Dmitry


    In families where one parent is Jewish and the other parent is not-Jewish, they would choose commonly not-Jewish nationality for their children
     
    Actually it's a universal phenomenon around the world (e.g. the children of the Russian-German marriage in Russia will be Russian, and in Germany will be Germans). The social status of Jews in the USSR is quite measured statistically-the ecological niche of Soviet Jews was the "middle class" (and rather the upper middle class). The average income of Soviet Jews and their level of education (and, accordingly, their social status) was noticeably higher than the average income/level of education of the rest of population.

    Replies: @Dmitry

    , @Mr. XYZ
    @Dmitry


    And this was ubiquitous for the Jews, you can see: in forums for people who want to apply for repatriation/work visas for Israel today, hundreds of people are complaining they had a Jewish ancestor, but their documentation does not correspond. People in the USSR, did not want their children to be Jews, when they had a choice.
     
    What about using DNA testing?

    Of course, I do think that Israel needs to be more open to the idea of accepting non-Jewish immigrants. After all, I would think that it would be terrible to prevent someone from immigrating to a particular country merely because of his or her ethnic group or religion.

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @German_reader

  356. @for-the-record
    @Dmitry

    Very coherent explanation of Jewish (disproportionate) propensity for Marxism, in fact it is quite similar to that in Yuri Slezkine's The Jewish Century (strongly recommended if you haven't already read it).

    Replies: @Dmitry

    Thanks.

    I didn’t read this book about Jews though, and probably it would not be so interesting for me.

    I’m interested in any book recommended about Marx and Marxism, though. Generally, I quite like reading any textbooks or essays on Marxism (it always seems to be me, the 19th century’s worst hacker, and Marxism like a beautifully designed, computer virus).

    In English, I found this one which looks good :
    https://libcom.org/files/decrypted_Isaiah-Berlin-Karl-Marx-His-Life-And-Environment.pdf

    • Replies: @for-the-record
    @Dmitry

    In English, I found this one which looks good :
    https://libcom.org/files/decrypted_Isaiah-Berlin-Karl-Marx-His-Life-And-Environment.pdf


    I read that decades before you were born, so once you have read it you can refresh my memory if it says anything memorable.

  357. @LatW
    @Konstantin

    Ofc, they didn't. Be careful, dear, people here read anthropology occasionally. If you meant the Wends, nobody knows who they were, could've been a coastal Finnic people, nobody's seen them and they don't count. If you meant the Ruyan, then yes great people but closer to Polish or even ancient Prussian than Russian. And they lived in Prussia or Germany.

    Russians other than Old Believers who are very different from modern Russians and who were perfectly integrated already during the 1930's don't have deep roots in the Baltics. They are very recent arrivals, some as recent as the late 1980s, 90s and later. Most graves are very recent, too.

    Replies: @Gerard2, @Konstantin, @Konstantin

    Russians other than Old Believers who are very different from modern Russians and who were perfectly integrated already during the 1930’s don’t have deep roots in the Baltics. They are very recent arrivals, some as recent as the late 1980s, 90s and later. Most graves are very recent, too.

    I would be careful of making stupid statements if from a country (Latvia)that has an American Prime Minister ,who still has American citizenship ,and has lived in the country for 50 years less then some great people who built the country(but yet this piece of shit seeks to impose his views on them-with his best Delaware accent)

    Similar thing with Freiberga( is she even living in Latvia now?) – all just Nazi scum families who escaped to the US, became (mildly-qualified) nutjobs…..surely these puppet countries could elect somebody who has actually lived in Latvia, opposed but “endured” the Soviet years and would be a better representative…instead of one just showing up how demented and plastic the country is?

    Not to mention you have a Russian president now..a traitor to his father but still the president of Latvia

    No voting rights, makes your comments about the options in migration the ethnic russians irrelevant…it more than cancels out the latter. A cynical exploitation of ethnic russian docile, hardworking but relative political apathy is also disgusting.

  358. @Dmitry
    @melanf

    It can be simply shown.

    When parents of two different nationalities had children, they could choose one of two parents' nationality for the children.

    In families where one parent is Jewish and the other parent is not-Jewish, they would choose commonly not-Jewish nationality for their children.

    One of my grandfather's was Jewish as his mother was a Jewess (so in the most strict sense he was the Jew, as the mother is the only important criteria for Jews). So he was a real Jew. However, all his documents it is written, his nationality is Russian, because his parents' chose his father's nationality instead of his mother's. They were not antisemitic. It was just better in the USSR, to be Russian, than to be Jew.

    And this was ubiquitous for the Jews, you can see: in forums for people who want to apply for repatriation/work visas for Israel today, hundreds of people are complaining they had a Jewish ancestor, but their documentation does not correspond. People in the USSR, did not want their children to be Jews, when they had a choice.

    Replies: @Gerard2, @melanf, @Mr. XYZ

    About a zillion jews in the west seem to have experienced “delayed” learning of their Jewish ancestry. Nothing USSR-centric about this type of thing at all. I would guess into the hundreds of thousands to a few million of those with both parents jewish who have anglised their name to the point of eliminating all Jewishness in it. I would guess they felt holding an outright jewish name would have harmed their chances of upward social mobility.

    Two major events composed near-entirely by jews, which instead of giving numerous ammunition to those lazily ascribing international jewry at work in everything…gives non-ending talk of Russia at work in everything

    The US spy ring in the 1940’s/50’s was near all jewish , but there was zero backlash for jewry….and a massive backlash for the USSR

    Russiagate is basically more jewish than Kosher-pie if you look at the personalities (alleged ) to have been involved (plus the odd guy from Azerbaijan), but what does it become instead of about the jews? All about Russia

    You can only praise the skill of the jewish lobby in the US for this act of misdirection

    It’s similar brainwashing done on issues such as MH-17 getting downed …….people are lead to subconsiously eliminate all sensible thinking processes .I would guess 95% of westerners hearing about it never had any thought whatsoever about the Ukrainian military, intelligence and political establishment and what role they may have played in it. Because it’s an irrelevant prostitute , fake country ….the cognitive processes isn’t there and they are lead to believe it was either “the west” or “Russia” who could have done it..and it couldn’t possibly be the west.All the while ANY technical knowledge or critical thinking are eliminated

    • LOL: Mr. Hack
  359. @Dmitry
    @melanf

    It can be simply shown.

    When parents of two different nationalities had children, they could choose one of two parents' nationality for the children.

    In families where one parent is Jewish and the other parent is not-Jewish, they would choose commonly not-Jewish nationality for their children.

    One of my grandfather's was Jewish as his mother was a Jewess (so in the most strict sense he was the Jew, as the mother is the only important criteria for Jews). So he was a real Jew. However, all his documents it is written, his nationality is Russian, because his parents' chose his father's nationality instead of his mother's. They were not antisemitic. It was just better in the USSR, to be Russian, than to be Jew.

    And this was ubiquitous for the Jews, you can see: in forums for people who want to apply for repatriation/work visas for Israel today, hundreds of people are complaining they had a Jewish ancestor, but their documentation does not correspond. People in the USSR, did not want their children to be Jews, when they had a choice.

    Replies: @Gerard2, @melanf, @Mr. XYZ

    In families where one parent is Jewish and the other parent is not-Jewish, they would choose commonly not-Jewish nationality for their children

    Actually it’s a universal phenomenon around the world (e.g. the children of the Russian-German marriage in Russia will be Russian, and in Germany will be Germans). The social status of Jews in the USSR is quite measured statistically-the ecological niche of Soviet Jews was the “middle class” (and rather the upper middle class). The average income of Soviet Jews and their level of education (and, accordingly, their social status) was noticeably higher than the average income/level of education of the rest of population.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @melanf


    the ecological niche of Soviet Jews was the “middle class” (and rather the upper middle class). The average income of Soviet Jews and their level of education (and, accordingly, their social status)
     
    On average as total population, secularized Ashkenazi Jews probably had a higher capacity for studying, compared to other nationalities. In addition with internal cultural norms, it resulted in higher educational level and higher proportion of the population working as educated specialists (aside from overrepresentation in blackmarket economy).

    This is not saying anything about their social position as Jews. To be Jew, was not cool to be, socially in the USSR. It was surely among the more loser nationalities, socially.


    universal phenomenon around the world (e.g. the children of the Russian-German marriage in Russia

     

    But today the phenonemon reversed, at least outside of people with political careers.

    Millenials, and even more generation Z are the opposite and boast about their minority roots..

    And this despite the fact nationalities like Jews are still unpopular politically. (And on websites like this one, the most unpopular nationality of all).

    So you can see how uncool it was to be Jewish USSR, by comparing to the reverse behaviour today.

    Replies: @German_reader, @Epigon, @for-the-record

  360. @Adam
    @Mr. Hack

    The US is where different groups with different identities compete to make money. There's no American culture and the English language is just a trade language. The titular 'American nation' has been reduced to just one of many groups in the US, which the ruling class and other nations are largely hostile to.

    I don't claim that Ukrainian Americans harm America in any meaningful way. I'm just bantzing AP, who has a strong Ukrainian identity and a homeland to fall back to while he sits comfortably in the US. People like me don't have that privilege.

    Replies: @LatW, @anonymous coward, @AP

    AP, who has a strong Ukrainian identity

    AP knows nothing at all about the Ukraine. He has a Galician identity. I.e., a Jewish-Polish mutt.

  361. @Dmitry
    @melanf

    It can be simply shown.

    When parents of two different nationalities had children, they could choose one of two parents' nationality for the children.

    In families where one parent is Jewish and the other parent is not-Jewish, they would choose commonly not-Jewish nationality for their children.

    One of my grandfather's was Jewish as his mother was a Jewess (so in the most strict sense he was the Jew, as the mother is the only important criteria for Jews). So he was a real Jew. However, all his documents it is written, his nationality is Russian, because his parents' chose his father's nationality instead of his mother's. They were not antisemitic. It was just better in the USSR, to be Russian, than to be Jew.

    And this was ubiquitous for the Jews, you can see: in forums for people who want to apply for repatriation/work visas for Israel today, hundreds of people are complaining they had a Jewish ancestor, but their documentation does not correspond. People in the USSR, did not want their children to be Jews, when they had a choice.

    Replies: @Gerard2, @melanf, @Mr. XYZ

    And this was ubiquitous for the Jews, you can see: in forums for people who want to apply for repatriation/work visas for Israel today, hundreds of people are complaining they had a Jewish ancestor, but their documentation does not correspond. People in the USSR, did not want their children to be Jews, when they had a choice.

    What about using DNA testing?

    Of course, I do think that Israel needs to be more open to the idea of accepting non-Jewish immigrants. After all, I would think that it would be terrible to prevent someone from immigrating to a particular country merely because of his or her ethnic group or religion.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @Mr. XYZ


    I would think that it would be terrible to prevent someone from immigrating to a particular country merely because of his or her ethnic group or religion.
     
    Why would it be terrible?

    Replies: @Mr. XYZ

    , @German_reader
    @Mr. XYZ


    After all, I would think that it would be terrible to prevent someone from immigrating to a particular country merely because of his or her ethnic group or religion.
     
    Is that a joke?
    Israel was supposed to be a Jewish nation state, non-Jewish immigration on a mass scale would obviously be detrimental to that project.

    Replies: @songbird, @Mr. XYZ, @Dmitry

  362. @Mr. XYZ
    @Dmitry


    And this was ubiquitous for the Jews, you can see: in forums for people who want to apply for repatriation/work visas for Israel today, hundreds of people are complaining they had a Jewish ancestor, but their documentation does not correspond. People in the USSR, did not want their children to be Jews, when they had a choice.
     
    What about using DNA testing?

    Of course, I do think that Israel needs to be more open to the idea of accepting non-Jewish immigrants. After all, I would think that it would be terrible to prevent someone from immigrating to a particular country merely because of his or her ethnic group or religion.

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @German_reader

    I would think that it would be terrible to prevent someone from immigrating to a particular country merely because of his or her ethnic group or religion.

    Why would it be terrible?

    • Replies: @Mr. XYZ
    @reiner Tor

    Because I believe in a more multicultural society as long as everyone else assimilates. After all, I would have loathed to be told that I can't come to the US because I am Slavic and Jewish as opposed to Anglo-Saxon.

    Replies: @German_reader, @DFH, @Thorfinnsson

  363. @Adam
    @Mr. Hack

    The US is where different groups with different identities compete to make money. There's no American culture and the English language is just a trade language. The titular 'American nation' has been reduced to just one of many groups in the US, which the ruling class and other nations are largely hostile to.

    I don't claim that Ukrainian Americans harm America in any meaningful way. I'm just bantzing AP, who has a strong Ukrainian identity and a homeland to fall back to while he sits comfortably in the US. People like me don't have that privilege.

    Replies: @LatW, @anonymous coward, @AP

    My people never took welfare, paid taxes and in the case of my father employed dozens of well-paid Americans in his company. They also vote Republican and for Trump for the same reasons most people here did. But yes – my father in his 70s says he’ll be fine but we or our children can always go to Ukraine if the Left sinks America.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @AP

    I guessed correctly! :-)

    , @Gerard2
    @AP

    "My people"...a false and insincere moron phrase in this context...not least with a fantasist fucktard as yourself, who for purposes of attention-whoring on the internet....metamorphasises as a Polish,Austrian anti-Banderite, Banderite, Dagestani-Canadia freakshow. Anyway the Banderite scumbags, probably the poorest non-African ethnic group in America , settled in quite, obscure places not employing many people after being smuggled out of execution , by the CIA..a bit like British paedophiles settled in Australia


    But yes – my father in his 70s says he’ll be fine but we or our children can always go to Ukraine if the Left sinks America
     
    ...I think we all know there isn;t a chance in hell of that occuring ( you freaks going to Ukraine)..or donating a cent to it.
    , @Mr. XYZ
    @AP

    What exactly made the Republicans so attractive to your people? Before Trump, they appear to have in large part been pro-immigration just like the Democrats are.

    Replies: @AP

  364. @LondonBob
    @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan

    Cromwell and Jackson strongly encouraged religious devotion in their troops, viewed themselves as instruments of God as well as being the two generals who shone out the most in their respective civil wars. I am not aware that Cromwell committed any atrocities, the only three I am aware of are the massacre of Bolton residents by Royalists, and the massacre at the siege of Basing House where Cromwell was the commander and some womenfolk camp followers who were killed at some battle. Cromwell's conduct was exemplary, despite Irish and Royalist black propaganda otherwise.

    Replies: @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan, @DFH, @Hibernian

    “…despite Irish and Royalist black propaganda otherwise.”

    When you’re a common enemy of the Irish and the Royalists, you might rethink your position.

  365. @AP
    @Adam

    My people never took welfare, paid taxes and in the case of my father employed dozens of well-paid Americans in his company. They also vote Republican and for Trump for the same reasons most people here did. But yes - my father in his 70s says he'll be fine but we or our children can always go to Ukraine if the Left sinks America.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @Gerard2, @Mr. XYZ

    I guessed correctly! 🙂

  366. Gaming PC performance requirements have to do with the quality of the monitor. The AnandTech site ‘guides’ menu shows recommended boards for 2019…a Radeon RX 570 for 150 bucks.

    You should be thinking about a NVME SSD…expensive but almost mandatory on a new system. I wouldn’t buy a computer without an ssd.

  367. @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan
    @reiner Tor

    I hesitate to answer that without thinking about it in categorical terms

    I will say for now that the following come to mind as very good books

    For a one volume political summary, that focuses on 1848-1861, I highly recommend 'The Impending Crisis' by historian by David Potter.

    For a longer summary, I quite like William Freehling's two-volume book 'The Road to Disunion.' Freehling focuses on the development of secessionist politics in the South, with enough background info on the North to know what was going on there. He goes into extensive detail and depth on social aspects. You will learn about the many differences between the respective Southern states. Freehling is also rather a fun writer; Potter has lots of good anecdotes, and knows how to write a narrative with pace.

    IIRC, Freehling's main argument, with which I mostly agreed, is that as white men began to become more egalitarian (towards themselves, that is, not towards other races/cultures - Jackson is a good example), the domestic elitism, so to speak, of slavery inevitably clashed with the larger political culture, including, to a surprisingly large degree, within the South itself.

    David Detzer wrote a fine summary of the actual outbreak of the war - the Sumter crisis. It is called 'Allegiance.'

    For a summary of the war itself, 'Battle Cry of Freedom' is, again, pretty good. I have to admit, though, I've mostly read specific topics from the war, and very few summary-type books.

    Shelby Foote and Bruce Catton, again, were the classic popular Civil War writers of the mid 20th century. Being a Northerner (though I have rebels in the family tree), Catton's Michigan style is appealing to me more so than Foote. Foote was arguably a better writer, though.

    There are copious memoirs from the war. Both armies were, in fact, highly literate. And the guys who could write were much better writers than today's average people.

    Whatever you do, don't read Thomas DiLorenzo or Garry Wills. DiLorenzo is a pro-Confederate partisan, while Wills is the kind of guy who tries to interpret Lincoln as belonging to a kind of multicultural liberal tradition. They're both hacks, though DiLorenzo probably commits more sins offensive to the discipline of history.

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @Beckow

    Thanks. I usually pick authors who try to argue against the established view of history – one learns more that way. What is often missing in mainstream is understanding of the others’ point of view. We can read them and disagree, but at least we disagree based on what they say, not on what others say they should say, or – most often – based on nothing. A one-sided argument is an oxymoron, but the intellectual elites seem to like it that way.

    My view is that bringing millions of slaves into America was a fatal error. The consequences have not fully played out yet – it might eventually destroy US from within. The never-ending attempts to correct this original error usually make it worse. Opening US to mass migration from the Third World can be traced to guilty feelings among some in the elite, but more directly also to an explicit attempt to dilute the legacy of slavery. It has made it worse, but they will keep on trying.

    When in a hole, what is there to do but to dig some more…

  368. German_reader says:
    @Mr. XYZ
    @Dmitry


    And this was ubiquitous for the Jews, you can see: in forums for people who want to apply for repatriation/work visas for Israel today, hundreds of people are complaining they had a Jewish ancestor, but their documentation does not correspond. People in the USSR, did not want their children to be Jews, when they had a choice.
     
    What about using DNA testing?

    Of course, I do think that Israel needs to be more open to the idea of accepting non-Jewish immigrants. After all, I would think that it would be terrible to prevent someone from immigrating to a particular country merely because of his or her ethnic group or religion.

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @German_reader

    After all, I would think that it would be terrible to prevent someone from immigrating to a particular country merely because of his or her ethnic group or religion.

    Is that a joke?
    Israel was supposed to be a Jewish nation state, non-Jewish immigration on a mass scale would obviously be detrimental to that project.

    • Agree: reiner Tor
    • Replies: @songbird
    @German_reader

    The Israeli Rabbinate is supposedly using DNA tests now to determine who is a Jew. I disclaim any understanding of Israeli law, but I believe the Right of Return means that interfaces with immigration.

    I think it is a good idea actually (beyond the questionable idea of the state somehow getting your DNA). I'd like to see it adopted more widely. DNA is an obvious, effective and relatively cheap tool to tamp down on this false universality. Since people are highly irrational and don't like using skin color, I'd like to see it adopted as a means around that. Genetic distance would be a good replacement, IMO.

    Replies: @German_reader, @Dmitry

    , @Mr. XYZ
    @German_reader

    Mass intermarriage between Jews and non-Jews combined with a more flexible and inclusive definition of "Who is a Jew?" would solve that problem. I mean, I'm only a quarter Jewish to my knowledge in terms of ancestry and yet I still identify as Jewish.

    Replies: @Dmitry

    , @Dmitry
    @German_reader

    Not in every scenario though.

    Israel is multiracial and multireligious. At the same time, it is in internal demographic war between Jews and Muslims.

    Increasing immigration of non-Jewish nationalities which would be loyal to Israel, and at the same of not too low human capital, could improve the demographic balance to become more patriotic and less Muslim in some cases.

    There's already small examples of loyal non-Jewish immigrants, like the Vietnamese Boat People which were given Israeli citizenship and are reportedly very patriotic, Circassians (who are actually Muslim and arrived in Palestine in the late 19th century), or Christian illegal and legal immigrants from countries like Colombia and Philippines, whose children are conscripted to the Israeli army and then receive Israeli citizenship.

    Obviously, I don't think giving citizenship to Sudanese and Eritrean illegal immigrants would help Israel's demographics, because they already just boosted the crime and rape rate there.

    -

    But remember Jewish immigration can also be difficult for Israel. Haredi Jews are often burning Israel flags and could undermine the state, and are generally superstitious clowns. And I've read about Ethiopian Jews, that they cost Israel $100,000 of government spending to absorb each immigrant (they establish special schools in their language, free housing and have to teach them basic skills).

    Replies: @Epigon

  369. @German_reader
    @Mr. XYZ


    After all, I would think that it would be terrible to prevent someone from immigrating to a particular country merely because of his or her ethnic group or religion.
     
    Is that a joke?
    Israel was supposed to be a Jewish nation state, non-Jewish immigration on a mass scale would obviously be detrimental to that project.

    Replies: @songbird, @Mr. XYZ, @Dmitry

    The Israeli Rabbinate is supposedly using DNA tests now to determine who is a Jew. I disclaim any understanding of Israeli law, but I believe the Right of Return means that interfaces with immigration.

    I think it is a good idea actually (beyond the questionable idea of the state somehow getting your DNA). I’d like to see it adopted more widely. DNA is an obvious, effective and relatively cheap tool to tamp down on this false universality. Since people are highly irrational and don’t like using skin color, I’d like to see it adopted as a means around that. Genetic distance would be a good replacement, IMO.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @songbird

    I don't know, I might be in favour of European countries adopting a "right of return" for European-Americans and other European-descended peoples, but I don't really see the utility of DNA tests. Ideological tests would be more important imo (e.g. I would never allow someone like Rod Dreher to settle in Europe, because he's just an Americanist über-cuck behind the veneer of his pretend Europhilia).
    But right now that's fantasy anyway, since one can't even achieve consensus about the general undesirability of Muslims and Africans as immigrants, which should be a commonsense position.

    Replies: @songbird

    , @Dmitry
    @songbird

    It's some fake news though (it was discussed on this forum already), in relation to immigration law for Israel.

    You can see on the Israeli forums, some people even want to take DNA to prove they have Jewish heritage, and they are told it's not accepted by Israeli immigration authorities.

    It's not in English, but if for Russian-speakers, you can scroll through Russian language forums for Israeli immigration and they talk about it constantly.
    https://vk.com/topic-12938769_26623607?offset=15100

    What they can allow is paternity tests to prove to Israel's government that your parents are who you claim, if you repatriate based on their documents, but they don't believe you.

  370. German_reader says:
    @songbird
    @German_reader

    The Israeli Rabbinate is supposedly using DNA tests now to determine who is a Jew. I disclaim any understanding of Israeli law, but I believe the Right of Return means that interfaces with immigration.

    I think it is a good idea actually (beyond the questionable idea of the state somehow getting your DNA). I'd like to see it adopted more widely. DNA is an obvious, effective and relatively cheap tool to tamp down on this false universality. Since people are highly irrational and don't like using skin color, I'd like to see it adopted as a means around that. Genetic distance would be a good replacement, IMO.

    Replies: @German_reader, @Dmitry

    I don’t know, I might be in favour of European countries adopting a “right of return” for European-Americans and other European-descended peoples, but I don’t really see the utility of DNA tests. Ideological tests would be more important imo (e.g. I would never allow someone like Rod Dreher to settle in Europe, because he’s just an Americanist über-cuck behind the veneer of his pretend Europhilia).
    But right now that’s fantasy anyway, since one can’t even achieve consensus about the general undesirability of Muslims and Africans as immigrants, which should be a commonsense position.

    • Replies: @songbird
    @German_reader

    I agree. Skin color (and by extension ancestry) are poor proxies for politics, although much superior to the fiction that exists now that it is about the arguments and all you need is to convince the blacks and Arabs to join the anti-globalists, as Utu seems to believe. But that may be of diminishing importance, if TFR is lower among the far left.

    Tests of ideology might be difficult to administer - I expect that there would be no compunction about lying, and it would be easy to figure out the right answers, as "refugees" do. Maybe, you could use an fMRI, or measure the relative sizes of brain tissues such as the amygdala. Of course, I think politics comes from competing evolutionary strategies, so it would be in the DNA. (At least to a reasonable, if imperfect extent.)

    But on Earth, you have the problem of all land being already claimed, so that makes it more difficult to use tests of ideology. I don't really entertain the idea, as I think it would be too difficult politically - I suppose that could change, if there was a break-up. A real, if seemingly fanciful possibility would be using them for space colonization. But, of course, there are serious technical hurdles, and you basically need state-backing to devote the resources to get into space.

    Replies: @Mr. XYZ

  371. Austrian government is considering banning the Identitarians, because Brenton Tarrant seems to have donated money to them in 2018 (probably with the intention of causing such a reaction):
    https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-newzealand-shootout-austria/man-charged-with-nz-mosque-attacks-gave-cash-to-austrian-far-right-chancellor-kurz-idUSKCN1R80MX

    Sebastian Kurz is a total scumbag, one should never trust Christian Democrats.

    • Agree: reiner Tor
    • Replies: @songbird
    @German_reader

    That's interesting that you give the possibility of a long-term time horizon. I wonder if he had that purpose in going to Israel - that he knew he would be accused of being Mossad. But that was supposedly in 2016, so perhaps too long ago.

    Replies: @German_reader

  372. @Dmitry
    @for-the-record

    Thanks.

    I didn't read this book about Jews though, and probably it would not be so interesting for me.

    I'm interested in any book recommended about Marx and Marxism, though. Generally, I quite like reading any textbooks or essays on Marxism (it always seems to be me, the 19th century's worst hacker, and Marxism like a beautifully designed, computer virus).

    In English, I found this one which looks good :
    https://libcom.org/files/decrypted_Isaiah-Berlin-Karl-Marx-His-Life-And-Environment.pdf

    Replies: @for-the-record

    In English, I found this one which looks good :
    https://libcom.org/files/decrypted_Isaiah-Berlin-Karl-Marx-His-Life-And-Environment.pdf

    I read that decades before you were born, so once you have read it you can refresh my memory if it says anything memorable.

  373. @reiner Tor
    @Mr. XYZ


    I would think that it would be terrible to prevent someone from immigrating to a particular country merely because of his or her ethnic group or religion.
     
    Why would it be terrible?

    Replies: @Mr. XYZ

    Because I believe in a more multicultural society as long as everyone else assimilates. After all, I would have loathed to be told that I can’t come to the US because I am Slavic and Jewish as opposed to Anglo-Saxon.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @Mr. XYZ


    Because I believe in a more multicultural society as long as everyone else assimilates.
     
    You've got your inherent contradiction right there.

    Replies: @Mr. XYZ

    , @DFH
    @Mr. XYZ


    Slavic and Jewish
     
    1. Pick one
    2. Now everything makes sense

    Replies: @Mr. XYZ

    , @Thorfinnsson
    @Mr. XYZ

    Because I believe in a more multicultural society as long as everyone else assimilates. After all, I would have loathed to be told that I can’t come to the US because I am Slavic and Jewish as opposed to Anglo-Saxon.
     

    EVERY. SINGLE. TIME.

    Replies: @Mr. XYZ

  374. @Mr. XYZ
    @reiner Tor

    Because I believe in a more multicultural society as long as everyone else assimilates. After all, I would have loathed to be told that I can't come to the US because I am Slavic and Jewish as opposed to Anglo-Saxon.

    Replies: @German_reader, @DFH, @Thorfinnsson

    Because I believe in a more multicultural society as long as everyone else assimilates.

    You’ve got your inherent contradiction right there.

    • Replies: @Mr. XYZ
    @German_reader

    Not necessarily. I don't care if different peoples keep their own ethnic foods and languages just as long as they will learn English and don't spread radical ideas into the US (such as advocating in favor of the death penalty for apostasy or advocating in favor of female genital mutilation).

    Replies: @German_reader, @Thorfinnsson

  375. @German_reader
    @Mr. XYZ


    After all, I would think that it would be terrible to prevent someone from immigrating to a particular country merely because of his or her ethnic group or religion.
     
    Is that a joke?
    Israel was supposed to be a Jewish nation state, non-Jewish immigration on a mass scale would obviously be detrimental to that project.

    Replies: @songbird, @Mr. XYZ, @Dmitry

    Mass intermarriage between Jews and non-Jews combined with a more flexible and inclusive definition of “Who is a Jew?” would solve that problem. I mean, I’m only a quarter Jewish to my knowledge in terms of ancestry and yet I still identify as Jewish.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @Mr. XYZ

    Israel probably needs a more targeted and filtered immigration system.

    They have so many demographic nightmares, they don't need to increase them.

    You can read how Israel's "Law of Return" is accepting now Ukrainian - presumably because they have Jewish descent - nationalist trash.

    E,g,


    Обвинение: житель Петах-Тиквы жестоко избил женщину за то, что та ответила ему по-русски

    Началось все с того, что Андрей Довженко задал вопрос по-украински, а в ответ услышал русскую речь

    https://www.vesty.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-5017036,00.html

     

    Reader comments below article:

    В Израиле уже давно мирно живут между собой выходцы из любых бывших союзных республик. И только новые репатрианты из Украины последней волны, вносят раздор. Приведу пример. В магазине Суперсаль была очередь в кассу. Покупательница никак не могла понять продавщицу на иврите. Некто из очереди взялся помочь с переводом и обратился к покупательнице по русски. Вместо благодарности он получил грубый ответ, что она не желает разговаривать по русски, а только на мове. Еще раз подчеркну, что это происходило в Израле, а не в Украине или России. Неужели кто то думает, что после таких случаев кто то захочет помогать этим личностям? Пока что от них только неприятный осадок.

     

    In other cases, at least it seems like illegal immigrants:

    В Петах-Тикве украинец убил молдаванина за слово "хохол"

     

    --

    But then there the way dresses one of Israel's (former) main news presenters (Bandera t-shirt is cool):

    https://i.imgur.com/Dn28mHO.jpg

    https://i.imgur.com/yQvi5dY.jpg

    Replies: @Mr. XYZ

  376. @German_reader
    @Mr. XYZ


    Because I believe in a more multicultural society as long as everyone else assimilates.
     
    You've got your inherent contradiction right there.

    Replies: @Mr. XYZ

    Not necessarily. I don’t care if different peoples keep their own ethnic foods and languages just as long as they will learn English and don’t spread radical ideas into the US (such as advocating in favor of the death penalty for apostasy or advocating in favor of female genital mutilation).

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @Mr. XYZ


    I don’t care if different peoples keep their own ethnic foods and languages
     
    That's about as superficial as it gets, the sort of assumption that has led Western societies into their current predicament.
    There's no enforcement mechanism for meaningful assimilation, once you've given immigrants citizenship, they can be as tribal as they want. And many obviously are (one merely needs to look at the bizarre spectacle in US politics of Zionist Jews vs. Somali and Palestinian Muslims...probably not what the founders of the US had in mind when they claimed the "rights of freeborn Englishmen" for themselves).

    Replies: @Mr. XYZ

    , @Thorfinnsson
    @Mr. XYZ

    I would rather that people practice female genital mutilation than keep their ethnic foods and languages.

    Ethnic foods results in having to deal with other people's food taboos (hindoos and beef, mohammedans and pork, etc.). Annoying for the same reason vegetarians and vegans are annoying.

    Foreign languages means having to hear incomprehensible foreign babbling in public spaces.

    FGM means their daughters get their clits lopped off. Who cares?

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

  377. @Mr. XYZ
    @reiner Tor

    Because I believe in a more multicultural society as long as everyone else assimilates. After all, I would have loathed to be told that I can't come to the US because I am Slavic and Jewish as opposed to Anglo-Saxon.

    Replies: @German_reader, @DFH, @Thorfinnsson

    Slavic and Jewish

    1. Pick one
    2. Now everything makes sense

    • Replies: @Mr. XYZ
    @DFH

    Genetically, I would say Slavic. In terms of cultural identification, I would say Jewish.

  378. German_reader says:
    @Mr. XYZ
    @German_reader

    Not necessarily. I don't care if different peoples keep their own ethnic foods and languages just as long as they will learn English and don't spread radical ideas into the US (such as advocating in favor of the death penalty for apostasy or advocating in favor of female genital mutilation).

    Replies: @German_reader, @Thorfinnsson

    I don’t care if different peoples keep their own ethnic foods and languages

    That’s about as superficial as it gets, the sort of assumption that has led Western societies into their current predicament.
    There’s no enforcement mechanism for meaningful assimilation, once you’ve given immigrants citizenship, they can be as tribal as they want. And many obviously are (one merely needs to look at the bizarre spectacle in US politics of Zionist Jews vs. Somali and Palestinian Muslims…probably not what the founders of the US had in mind when they claimed the “rights of freeborn Englishmen” for themselves).

    • Replies: @Mr. XYZ
    @German_reader

    Maybe if there was less of an emphasis in the US (and perhaps Western Europe as well) on identity politics, then maybe we would see less tribalism.

    Replies: @German_reader

  379. Is there a lot of media noise regarding the arrival of International Investment Bank to Budapest?

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @Epigon

    Yes, a lot of negative publicity by the liberal press. They talk about the privileges given to “Putin’s bank.” I brought it up here, Karlin made a post about it.

  380. @DFH
    @Mr. XYZ


    Slavic and Jewish
     
    1. Pick one
    2. Now everything makes sense

    Replies: @Mr. XYZ

    Genetically, I would say Slavic. In terms of cultural identification, I would say Jewish.

  381. @German_reader
    @Mr. XYZ


    I don’t care if different peoples keep their own ethnic foods and languages
     
    That's about as superficial as it gets, the sort of assumption that has led Western societies into their current predicament.
    There's no enforcement mechanism for meaningful assimilation, once you've given immigrants citizenship, they can be as tribal as they want. And many obviously are (one merely needs to look at the bizarre spectacle in US politics of Zionist Jews vs. Somali and Palestinian Muslims...probably not what the founders of the US had in mind when they claimed the "rights of freeborn Englishmen" for themselves).

    Replies: @Mr. XYZ

    Maybe if there was less of an emphasis in the US (and perhaps Western Europe as well) on identity politics, then maybe we would see less tribalism.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @Mr. XYZ

    Identity politics is a natural consequence of mass immigration. Many immigrants have extremely strong identities anyway (lots of Muslims certainly do), they don't need any encouragement from leftist radicals for that.

    Replies: @Mr. XYZ

  382. @Mr. XYZ
    @reiner Tor

    Because I believe in a more multicultural society as long as everyone else assimilates. After all, I would have loathed to be told that I can't come to the US because I am Slavic and Jewish as opposed to Anglo-Saxon.

    Replies: @German_reader, @DFH, @Thorfinnsson

    Because I believe in a more multicultural society as long as everyone else assimilates. After all, I would have loathed to be told that I can’t come to the US because I am Slavic and Jewish as opposed to Anglo-Saxon.

    EVERY. SINGLE. TIME.

    • Replies: @Mr. XYZ
    @Thorfinnsson

    For what it's worth, I do think that Europe is doing multiculturalism wrong. I'd have only imported the higher-IQ Muslims and let lower-IQ Muslims remain in their home countries. That way, maybe there would be less violence whenever someone draws a cartoon of Muhammad.

    Replies: @German_reader

  383. @Mr. XYZ
    @German_reader

    Maybe if there was less of an emphasis in the US (and perhaps Western Europe as well) on identity politics, then maybe we would see less tribalism.

    Replies: @German_reader

    Identity politics is a natural consequence of mass immigration. Many immigrants have extremely strong identities anyway (lots of Muslims certainly do), they don’t need any encouragement from leftist radicals for that.

    • Replies: @Mr. XYZ
    @German_reader

    This seems like a good argument for large-scale intermarriage, no? Of course, the problem with that is that different ethnic groups are going to lose their uniqueness and that the amount of smart fractions in one's country might very well significantly decrease.

    Which ethnic groups in the US are the least ethno-nationalistic?

  384. @reiner Tor
    @Thorfinnsson

    The vast majority of communist believers were underdogs, who hoped that their (or their groups’) positions would improve under the coming communist utopia. This is true of the majority of communists (who were poor), and some more elite third world leaders (though communist leaders were usually at best middle class). Jews fit this pattern to an extent, but economically speaking they were already top dogs.

    It’s often asserted that Jewish communists never had a Jewish identity, but it’s often difficult to tell, because Jews don’t tell others about their identity. (Nor do they necessarily have the self-awareness to know it themselves if they are motivated by their ethnic identity.) For example Molotov’s wife showed zero signs of a Jewish identity, until she met Golda Meyersson (later Meir) in 1948 and immediately broke in tears. The Moscow synagogue was swarmed by a crowd of Jews several times its capacity when she arrived there - presumably this included any number of Jews who had previously never shown a sign of Jewish ethnic identity. Voroshilov’s wife similarly astonished her family members in 1948 when she announced that “finally we have a country.” At first they didn’t understand who the “we” referred to - she hadn’t shown any signs of a Jewish ethnic identity before. The Hungarian minister of culture (and secretary responsible for culture in the Political Committee of the Hungarian Socialist Workers’ Party) started out as a Zionist, while the communist vice chairman of the Hungarian National Bank (largely responsible for the indebtedness of the country by 1990) quickly discovered his Jewish roots in 1990 and left for Israel.

    Communism clearly wasn’t the dominant ideology of Jews, but it was attractive to a disproportionate number of them, especially considering their economic position. (I.e. they were not poor working class.) This is the reason why Hungary in 1921 made a law (touted in Hungary as the “first racial law against Jews”; I’m not sure if it’s known outside Hungary) which restricted Jews to 5% of students in higher education - they didn’t want to train the leadership of the next communist government.

    Replies: @Dmitry, @Mr. XYZ

    Communism clearly wasn’t the dominant ideology of Jews, but it was attractive to a disproportionate number of them, especially considering their economic position. (I.e. they were not poor working class.) This is the reason why Hungary in 1921 made a law (touted in Hungary as the “first racial law against Jews”; I’m not sure if it’s known outside Hungary) which restricted Jews to 5% of students in higher education – they didn’t want to train the leadership of the next communist government.

    In regards to Jewish quotas, as much as the Left might not want to hear this, they actually make sense from a blank slatist perspective. After all, if there are genuinely no genetic IQ differences between different groups of people, then it makes sense to give groups with a lower average IQ preferential treatment when it comes to things such as university admissions, employment, et cetera.

  385. @Thorfinnsson
    @Mr. XYZ

    Because I believe in a more multicultural society as long as everyone else assimilates. After all, I would have loathed to be told that I can’t come to the US because I am Slavic and Jewish as opposed to Anglo-Saxon.
     

    EVERY. SINGLE. TIME.

    Replies: @Mr. XYZ

    For what it’s worth, I do think that Europe is doing multiculturalism wrong. I’d have only imported the higher-IQ Muslims and let lower-IQ Muslims remain in their home countries. That way, maybe there would be less violence whenever someone draws a cartoon of Muhammad.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @Mr. XYZ


    That way, maybe there would be less violence whenever someone draws a cartoon of Muhammad.
     
    Mohammed Atta probably had a fairly high IQ by Egyptian standards.
    "Doing multiculturalism wrong"...multiculturalism is wrong per se, there isn't any right version of it. All that "the US is so much better at integrating Muslims" stuff is garbage as well, there have been plenty of Islamic terror attacks in the US, and people like Ilhan Omar obviously aren't integrated into any meaningful American identity at all (even though they use SJW language for promoting their Islamic agenda).

    Replies: @DFH, @Mr. XYZ

  386. @German_reader
    @Mr. XYZ

    Identity politics is a natural consequence of mass immigration. Many immigrants have extremely strong identities anyway (lots of Muslims certainly do), they don't need any encouragement from leftist radicals for that.

    Replies: @Mr. XYZ

    This seems like a good argument for large-scale intermarriage, no? Of course, the problem with that is that different ethnic groups are going to lose their uniqueness and that the amount of smart fractions in one’s country might very well significantly decrease.

    Which ethnic groups in the US are the least ethno-nationalistic?

  387. @German_reader
    @songbird

    I don't know, I might be in favour of European countries adopting a "right of return" for European-Americans and other European-descended peoples, but I don't really see the utility of DNA tests. Ideological tests would be more important imo (e.g. I would never allow someone like Rod Dreher to settle in Europe, because he's just an Americanist über-cuck behind the veneer of his pretend Europhilia).
    But right now that's fantasy anyway, since one can't even achieve consensus about the general undesirability of Muslims and Africans as immigrants, which should be a commonsense position.

    Replies: @songbird

    I agree. Skin color (and by extension ancestry) are poor proxies for politics, although much superior to the fiction that exists now that it is about the arguments and all you need is to convince the blacks and Arabs to join the anti-globalists, as Utu seems to believe. But that may be of diminishing importance, if TFR is lower among the far left.

    Tests of ideology might be difficult to administer – I expect that there would be no compunction about lying, and it would be easy to figure out the right answers, as “refugees” do. Maybe, you could use an fMRI, or measure the relative sizes of brain tissues such as the amygdala. Of course, I think politics comes from competing evolutionary strategies, so it would be in the DNA. (At least to a reasonable, if imperfect extent.)

    But on Earth, you have the problem of all land being already claimed, so that makes it more difficult to use tests of ideology. I don’t really entertain the idea, as I think it would be too difficult politically – I suppose that could change, if there was a break-up. A real, if seemingly fanciful possibility would be using them for space colonization. But, of course, there are serious technical hurdles, and you basically need state-backing to devote the resources to get into space.

    • Replies: @Mr. XYZ
    @songbird

    Yeah, if you're going to try figuring out potential immigrants' political ideologies, the best move might be to look at their DNA.

  388. For what it’s worth, I am well-aware that some Jews’ support for multiculturalism in the West while opposing non-Jewish immigration to Israel contributes to anti-Semitism among Gentiles. In this regard, I think that much more Jews should follow my lead and embrace multiculturalism for Israel. I don’t mean importing massive numbers of low-IQ Muslims and Africans. Rather, what I mean is allowing high-IQ non-Jewish immigrants from anywhere except perhaps the Muslim world (due to their extremely long period of hostility with Israel) immigrate to Israel and acquire Israeli citizenship.

    I also think that civil marriage needs to be legalized in Israel and that Israel needs to adopt a more inclusive and tolerant definition of “Who is a Jew?”

  389. German_reader says:
    @Mr. XYZ
    @Thorfinnsson

    For what it's worth, I do think that Europe is doing multiculturalism wrong. I'd have only imported the higher-IQ Muslims and let lower-IQ Muslims remain in their home countries. That way, maybe there would be less violence whenever someone draws a cartoon of Muhammad.

    Replies: @German_reader

    That way, maybe there would be less violence whenever someone draws a cartoon of Muhammad.

    Mohammed Atta probably had a fairly high IQ by Egyptian standards.
    “Doing multiculturalism wrong”…multiculturalism is wrong per se, there isn’t any right version of it. All that “the US is so much better at integrating Muslims” stuff is garbage as well, there have been plenty of Islamic terror attacks in the US, and people like Ilhan Omar obviously aren’t integrated into any meaningful American identity at all (even though they use SJW language for promoting their Islamic agenda).

    • Replies: @DFH
    @German_reader


    Mohammed Atta probably had a fairly high IQ by Egyptian standards.
     
    I think most 'fundamentalist' Muslims (or whatever you want to call them) have a higher than average IQ for their groups; for instance, students and in particular engineering or medical students are/were very over-represented among them in Arab countries

    Replies: @Mr. XYZ

    , @Mr. XYZ
    @German_reader

    I did previously see a chart that showed that US Muslims were, on average, much more educated than European Muslims were. Would you like to see this chart?

    As for Ilhan Omar, Yes, she does appear to be a relatively high-IQ Muslim (AFAIK, her family were from Somalia's elite) and Yes, she does appear to have a lot of ethnic flair left in her. However, what exactly do you find objectionable about her besides her lack of assimilation? I mean, her comments about Jewish money might very well be true--and she does appear to be a typical progressive on social issues (which is good in some cases and bad in other cases, but that's true for a lot of White American progressives as well--not just non-White immigrant progressives).

    Replies: @German_reader

  390. @songbird
    @German_reader

    I agree. Skin color (and by extension ancestry) are poor proxies for politics, although much superior to the fiction that exists now that it is about the arguments and all you need is to convince the blacks and Arabs to join the anti-globalists, as Utu seems to believe. But that may be of diminishing importance, if TFR is lower among the far left.

    Tests of ideology might be difficult to administer - I expect that there would be no compunction about lying, and it would be easy to figure out the right answers, as "refugees" do. Maybe, you could use an fMRI, or measure the relative sizes of brain tissues such as the amygdala. Of course, I think politics comes from competing evolutionary strategies, so it would be in the DNA. (At least to a reasonable, if imperfect extent.)

    But on Earth, you have the problem of all land being already claimed, so that makes it more difficult to use tests of ideology. I don't really entertain the idea, as I think it would be too difficult politically - I suppose that could change, if there was a break-up. A real, if seemingly fanciful possibility would be using them for space colonization. But, of course, there are serious technical hurdles, and you basically need state-backing to devote the resources to get into space.

    Replies: @Mr. XYZ

    Yeah, if you’re going to try figuring out potential immigrants’ political ideologies, the best move might be to look at their DNA.

  391. @German_reader
    Austrian government is considering banning the Identitarians, because Brenton Tarrant seems to have donated money to them in 2018 (probably with the intention of causing such a reaction):
    https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-newzealand-shootout-austria/man-charged-with-nz-mosque-attacks-gave-cash-to-austrian-far-right-chancellor-kurz-idUSKCN1R80MX

    Sebastian Kurz is a total scumbag, one should never trust Christian Democrats.

    Replies: @songbird

    That’s interesting that you give the possibility of a long-term time horizon. I wonder if he had that purpose in going to Israel – that he knew he would be accused of being Mossad. But that was supposedly in 2016, so perhaps too long ago.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @songbird

    I think he said he had planned the attack for at least two years, so who knows?
    But getting the identitarians (an explicitly non-violent nationalist movement) banned would certainly fit his accelerationist programme of destroying chances for peaceful activism (though he's probably wrong that masses of people will turn to violence as a consequence, only a few will do that, resignation and apathy is more likely among the majority).
    Tarrant seems to be a pretty warped personality, his nihilism is unappealing, but his political calculations aren't completely wrong. The reactions to his attack are probably just what he expected.

  392. German_reader says:
    @songbird
    @German_reader

    That's interesting that you give the possibility of a long-term time horizon. I wonder if he had that purpose in going to Israel - that he knew he would be accused of being Mossad. But that was supposedly in 2016, so perhaps too long ago.

    Replies: @German_reader

    I think he said he had planned the attack for at least two years, so who knows?
    But getting the identitarians (an explicitly non-violent nationalist movement) banned would certainly fit his accelerationist programme of destroying chances for peaceful activism (though he’s probably wrong that masses of people will turn to violence as a consequence, only a few will do that, resignation and apathy is more likely among the majority).
    Tarrant seems to be a pretty warped personality, his nihilism is unappealing, but his political calculations aren’t completely wrong. The reactions to his attack are probably just what he expected.

  393. @Mr. XYZ
    @German_reader

    Not necessarily. I don't care if different peoples keep their own ethnic foods and languages just as long as they will learn English and don't spread radical ideas into the US (such as advocating in favor of the death penalty for apostasy or advocating in favor of female genital mutilation).

    Replies: @German_reader, @Thorfinnsson

    I would rather that people practice female genital mutilation than keep their ethnic foods and languages.

    Ethnic foods results in having to deal with other people’s food taboos (hindoos and beef, mohammedans and pork, etc.). Annoying for the same reason vegetarians and vegans are annoying.

    Foreign languages means having to hear incomprehensible foreign babbling in public spaces.

    FGM means their daughters get their clits lopped off. Who cares?

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @Thorfinnsson

    For a guy who seems to be imbued with a free market, laissez faire sort of spirit, you sure sound like somebody more prone to an insufferable case of cultural constipation. Could be the result of a diet too high in meats? More vegetables, especially leafy green ones like spinach might help you out?

    As for your inability to countenance others around you speaking in foreign tongues, perhaps your instincts are correct - they're definitely talking about you, pointing out some of your basic paranoia and idiosyncrasies! :-)

    (Lucky thing that you live in a small town somewhere in the Mid West)...

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson, @DFH, @Hyperborean

  394. Dangers of Multiculturalism!

    Schräge Musik at the end!

    Watching NBA and other sports events, when cameras switch to spectators, you can see exactly what Jung was writing about – even White Americans are very un-European in their behaviour and demeanour, on average.
    This is true even for high class Americans.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    @Epigon

    I'm reminded of Sailer's(I believe?) construction of Trump as the First Black President.

  395. @German_reader
    @Mr. XYZ


    That way, maybe there would be less violence whenever someone draws a cartoon of Muhammad.
     
    Mohammed Atta probably had a fairly high IQ by Egyptian standards.
    "Doing multiculturalism wrong"...multiculturalism is wrong per se, there isn't any right version of it. All that "the US is so much better at integrating Muslims" stuff is garbage as well, there have been plenty of Islamic terror attacks in the US, and people like Ilhan Omar obviously aren't integrated into any meaningful American identity at all (even though they use SJW language for promoting their Islamic agenda).

    Replies: @DFH, @Mr. XYZ

    Mohammed Atta probably had a fairly high IQ by Egyptian standards.

    I think most ‘fundamentalist’ Muslims (or whatever you want to call them) have a higher than average IQ for their groups; for instance, students and in particular engineering or medical students are/were very over-represented among them in Arab countries

    • Replies: @Mr. XYZ
    @DFH

    That's certainly very possible. That said, though, why is Muslim fundamentalism largely absent from the US?

  396. @Thorfinnsson
    @Mr. XYZ

    I would rather that people practice female genital mutilation than keep their ethnic foods and languages.

    Ethnic foods results in having to deal with other people's food taboos (hindoos and beef, mohammedans and pork, etc.). Annoying for the same reason vegetarians and vegans are annoying.

    Foreign languages means having to hear incomprehensible foreign babbling in public spaces.

    FGM means their daughters get their clits lopped off. Who cares?

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    For a guy who seems to be imbued with a free market, laissez faire sort of spirit, you sure sound like somebody more prone to an insufferable case of cultural constipation. Could be the result of a diet too high in meats? More vegetables, especially leafy green ones like spinach might help you out?

    As for your inability to countenance others around you speaking in foreign tongues, perhaps your instincts are correct – they’re definitely talking about you, pointing out some of your basic paranoia and idiosyncrasies! 🙂

    (Lucky thing that you live in a small town somewhere in the Mid West)…

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    @Mr. Hack

    Speaking as someone who speaks a foreign tongue fluently, I can confirm that it is a great secret code for disparaging others in public spaces.

    One of the best things about living in a rural area is precisely the lack of diversity.

    I do like big cities, but unfortunately thanks to the never ending hell of immigration one is never at home in these cities.

    And even here in a rural area one suffers from this on the telephone. It's particularly bad in Canada, no doubt due to their high rate of immigration. Half the time when talking to Canadian businesses one ends up dealing with someone who has some gibberish non-European name and speaks broken, accented English.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @AP

    , @DFH
    @Mr. Hack


    As for your inability to countenance others around you speaking in foreign tongues,
     
    90% of non-European languages sound horrible and even otherwise pleasant European languages sound obnoxious when foreigners use them in your spaces.
    , @Hyperborean
    @Mr. Hack


    As for your inability to countenance others around you speaking in foreign tongues, perhaps your instincts are correct – they’re definitely talking about you, pointing out some of your basic paranoia and idiosyncrasies! 🙂
     
    Two of my Elder Brothers during the year they were in the USA as young children, they would often make inappropriate remarks about people in public precisely because no one understood them.
  397. @Mr. Hack
    @Thorfinnsson

    For a guy who seems to be imbued with a free market, laissez faire sort of spirit, you sure sound like somebody more prone to an insufferable case of cultural constipation. Could be the result of a diet too high in meats? More vegetables, especially leafy green ones like spinach might help you out?

    As for your inability to countenance others around you speaking in foreign tongues, perhaps your instincts are correct - they're definitely talking about you, pointing out some of your basic paranoia and idiosyncrasies! :-)

    (Lucky thing that you live in a small town somewhere in the Mid West)...

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson, @DFH, @Hyperborean

    Speaking as someone who speaks a foreign tongue fluently, I can confirm that it is a great secret code for disparaging others in public spaces.

    One of the best things about living in a rural area is precisely the lack of diversity.

    I do like big cities, but unfortunately thanks to the never ending hell of immigration one is never at home in these cities.

    And even here in a rural area one suffers from this on the telephone. It’s particularly bad in Canada, no doubt due to their high rate of immigration. Half the time when talking to Canadian businesses one ends up dealing with someone who has some gibberish non-European name and speaks broken, accented English.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @Thorfinnsson


    Speaking as someone who speaks a foreign tongue fluently, I can confirm that it is a great secret code for disparaging others in public spaces.
     
    You're beginning to sound like one of those liberal politically correct cucktards. What's wrong with speaking critically of others in private or in public, as long as it's not overly mean spirited (especially in secret)? Remember the young kid who recently 'smirked' at the American Indian in public? Folks criticize each other here at this blog 24/7. Is it Swedish that you're fluent in?

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson

    , @AP
    @Thorfinnsson


    Speaking as someone who speaks a foreign tongue fluently, I can confirm that it is a great secret code for disparaging others in public spaces.
     
    Indeed. Or not even for disparaging others. I've taken for granted that all public conversations are still private within my non-English-speaking family.
  398. @Mr. Hack
    @Thorfinnsson

    For a guy who seems to be imbued with a free market, laissez faire sort of spirit, you sure sound like somebody more prone to an insufferable case of cultural constipation. Could be the result of a diet too high in meats? More vegetables, especially leafy green ones like spinach might help you out?

    As for your inability to countenance others around you speaking in foreign tongues, perhaps your instincts are correct - they're definitely talking about you, pointing out some of your basic paranoia and idiosyncrasies! :-)

    (Lucky thing that you live in a small town somewhere in the Mid West)...

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson, @DFH, @Hyperborean

    As for your inability to countenance others around you speaking in foreign tongues,

    90% of non-European languages sound horrible and even otherwise pleasant European languages sound obnoxious when foreigners use them in your spaces.

  399. @Mr. Hack
    @Thorfinnsson

    For a guy who seems to be imbued with a free market, laissez faire sort of spirit, you sure sound like somebody more prone to an insufferable case of cultural constipation. Could be the result of a diet too high in meats? More vegetables, especially leafy green ones like spinach might help you out?

    As for your inability to countenance others around you speaking in foreign tongues, perhaps your instincts are correct - they're definitely talking about you, pointing out some of your basic paranoia and idiosyncrasies! :-)

    (Lucky thing that you live in a small town somewhere in the Mid West)...

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson, @DFH, @Hyperborean

    As for your inability to countenance others around you speaking in foreign tongues, perhaps your instincts are correct – they’re definitely talking about you, pointing out some of your basic paranoia and idiosyncrasies! 🙂

    Two of my Elder Brothers during the year they were in the USA as young children, they would often make inappropriate remarks about people in public precisely because no one understood them.

  400. @melanf
    @Dmitry


    In families where one parent is Jewish and the other parent is not-Jewish, they would choose commonly not-Jewish nationality for their children
     
    Actually it's a universal phenomenon around the world (e.g. the children of the Russian-German marriage in Russia will be Russian, and in Germany will be Germans). The social status of Jews in the USSR is quite measured statistically-the ecological niche of Soviet Jews was the "middle class" (and rather the upper middle class). The average income of Soviet Jews and their level of education (and, accordingly, their social status) was noticeably higher than the average income/level of education of the rest of population.

    Replies: @Dmitry

    the ecological niche of Soviet Jews was the “middle class” (and rather the upper middle class). The average income of Soviet Jews and their level of education (and, accordingly, their social status)

    On average as total population, secularized Ashkenazi Jews probably had a higher capacity for studying, compared to other nationalities. In addition with internal cultural norms, it resulted in higher educational level and higher proportion of the population working as educated specialists (aside from overrepresentation in blackmarket economy).

    This is not saying anything about their social position as Jews. To be Jew, was not cool to be, socially in the USSR. It was surely among the more loser nationalities, socially.

    universal phenomenon around the world (e.g. the children of the Russian-German marriage in Russia

    But today the phenonemon reversed, at least outside of people with political careers.

    Millenials, and even more generation Z are the opposite and boast about their minority roots..

    And this despite the fact nationalities like Jews are still unpopular politically. (And on websites like this one, the most unpopular nationality of all).

    So you can see how uncool it was to be Jewish USSR, by comparing to the reverse behaviour today.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @Dmitry


    It was surely among the more loser nationalities, socially.
     
    People who point out the Jewish role in the Soviet Union usually do so with reference to the 1920s and 1930s, and often acknowledge that things changed somewhat later, especially after the creation of Israel and the support for anti-Israel Arab regimes by the Soviet Union.
    But in the 1920s and 1930s...is it a sign of a "loser nationality" to be grotesquely overrepresented in the secret police?

    And this despite the fact Jews are still unpopular politically.
     
    There are tens of millions of gentiles who love Jews and strongly support Jewish nationalism (especially in the US, but the type also exists in Europe).

    (And on websites like this one, the most unpopular nationality of all).
     
    A fringe website with zero influence on wider debates.
    , @Epigon
    @Dmitry

    They didn’t have “a greater capacity for studying”, they literally exterminated and expelled the previous professors and students during and after the Revolution.

    Why are you trying to spin the well known facts on the percentage of Jewish students in 1920s Moscow and Leningrad Universities?
    Do you need a reminder on the rerun of that same tribalism and nepotism in the United States today, where they are vastly overrepresented at Ivy League, but not so much at CalTech and MIT?

    , @for-the-record
    @Dmitry

    On average as total population, secularized Ashkenazi Jews probably had a higher capacity for studying

    That's one way of looking at it I guess. Here is another (referring to the situation in the mid-1920s):


    Some members of the prerevolutionary elite, in particular, resented the “antibourgeois” quotas in educational institutions and the subsequent rise of the Jewish immigrants as both prominent new Kulturträger and leading “proletarian” iconoclasts. The art historian A. Anisimov wrote to a colleague in Prague (in November 1923), “Out of 100 applicants to Moscow University, 78 are Jews; thus, if the Russian university is now in Prague, the Jewish one is in Moscow.” The father of a student about to be “purged” for alien origins wrote to a friend or relative in Serbia: “Pavel and his friends are awaiting their fate. But it’s clear that only the Jerusalem academics and the Communists, Party members generally, are going to stay.” And according to the wife of a Leningrad University professor, “in all the institutions, only workers and Israelites are admitted; the life of the intelligentsia is very hard.”

    Yuri Slezkine, The Jewish Century, pp. 243-244.
     

    Replies: @Dmitry

  401. German_reader says:
    @Dmitry
    @melanf


    the ecological niche of Soviet Jews was the “middle class” (and rather the upper middle class). The average income of Soviet Jews and their level of education (and, accordingly, their social status)
     
    On average as total population, secularized Ashkenazi Jews probably had a higher capacity for studying, compared to other nationalities. In addition with internal cultural norms, it resulted in higher educational level and higher proportion of the population working as educated specialists (aside from overrepresentation in blackmarket economy).

    This is not saying anything about their social position as Jews. To be Jew, was not cool to be, socially in the USSR. It was surely among the more loser nationalities, socially.


    universal phenomenon around the world (e.g. the children of the Russian-German marriage in Russia

     

    But today the phenonemon reversed, at least outside of people with political careers.

    Millenials, and even more generation Z are the opposite and boast about their minority roots..

    And this despite the fact nationalities like Jews are still unpopular politically. (And on websites like this one, the most unpopular nationality of all).

    So you can see how uncool it was to be Jewish USSR, by comparing to the reverse behaviour today.

    Replies: @German_reader, @Epigon, @for-the-record

    It was surely among the more loser nationalities, socially.

    People who point out the Jewish role in the Soviet Union usually do so with reference to the 1920s and 1930s, and often acknowledge that things changed somewhat later, especially after the creation of Israel and the support for anti-Israel Arab regimes by the Soviet Union.
    But in the 1920s and 1930s…is it a sign of a “loser nationality” to be grotesquely overrepresented in the secret police?

    And this despite the fact Jews are still unpopular politically.

    There are tens of millions of gentiles who love Jews and strongly support Jewish nationalism (especially in the US, but the type also exists in Europe).

    (And on websites like this one, the most unpopular nationality of all).

    A fringe website with zero influence on wider debates.

  402. @songbird
    @German_reader

    The Israeli Rabbinate is supposedly using DNA tests now to determine who is a Jew. I disclaim any understanding of Israeli law, but I believe the Right of Return means that interfaces with immigration.

    I think it is a good idea actually (beyond the questionable idea of the state somehow getting your DNA). I'd like to see it adopted more widely. DNA is an obvious, effective and relatively cheap tool to tamp down on this false universality. Since people are highly irrational and don't like using skin color, I'd like to see it adopted as a means around that. Genetic distance would be a good replacement, IMO.

    Replies: @German_reader, @Dmitry

    It’s some fake news though (it was discussed on this forum already), in relation to immigration law for Israel.

    You can see on the Israeli forums, some people even want to take DNA to prove they have Jewish heritage, and they are told it’s not accepted by Israeli immigration authorities.

    It’s not in English, but if for Russian-speakers, you can scroll through Russian language forums for Israeli immigration and they talk about it constantly.
    https://vk.com/topic-12938769_26623607?offset=15100

    What they can allow is paternity tests to prove to Israel’s government that your parents are who you claim, if you repatriate based on their documents, but they don’t believe you.

  403. @German_reader
    @Mr. XYZ


    After all, I would think that it would be terrible to prevent someone from immigrating to a particular country merely because of his or her ethnic group or religion.
     
    Is that a joke?
    Israel was supposed to be a Jewish nation state, non-Jewish immigration on a mass scale would obviously be detrimental to that project.

    Replies: @songbird, @Mr. XYZ, @Dmitry

    Not in every scenario though.

    Israel is multiracial and multireligious. At the same time, it is in internal demographic war between Jews and Muslims.

    Increasing immigration of non-Jewish nationalities which would be loyal to Israel, and at the same of not too low human capital, could improve the demographic balance to become more patriotic and less Muslim in some cases.

    There’s already small examples of loyal non-Jewish immigrants, like the Vietnamese Boat People which were given Israeli citizenship and are reportedly very patriotic, Circassians (who are actually Muslim and arrived in Palestine in the late 19th century), or Christian illegal and legal immigrants from countries like Colombia and Philippines, whose children are conscripted to the Israeli army and then receive Israeli citizenship.

    Obviously, I don’t think giving citizenship to Sudanese and Eritrean illegal immigrants would help Israel’s demographics, because they already just boosted the crime and rape rate there.

    But remember Jewish immigration can also be difficult for Israel. Haredi Jews are often burning Israel flags and could undermine the state, and are generally superstitious clowns. And I’ve read about Ethiopian Jews, that they cost Israel $100,000 of government spending to absorb each immigrant (they establish special schools in their language, free housing and have to teach them basic skills).

    • Replies: @Epigon
    @Dmitry

    Calling Israel multiracial, multicultural and/or multiconfessional - really? Are you for real, this oblivious? This isn’t autism, as others might have concluded.

    Israel not being 100% Jewish doesn’t make it a multiracial and multiconfessional country. Having ethnic specific laws and rights, state religion immediately disproves your claim.

    Replies: @Dmitry

  404. @Dmitry
    @melanf


    the ecological niche of Soviet Jews was the “middle class” (and rather the upper middle class). The average income of Soviet Jews and their level of education (and, accordingly, their social status)
     
    On average as total population, secularized Ashkenazi Jews probably had a higher capacity for studying, compared to other nationalities. In addition with internal cultural norms, it resulted in higher educational level and higher proportion of the population working as educated specialists (aside from overrepresentation in blackmarket economy).

    This is not saying anything about their social position as Jews. To be Jew, was not cool to be, socially in the USSR. It was surely among the more loser nationalities, socially.


    universal phenomenon around the world (e.g. the children of the Russian-German marriage in Russia

     

    But today the phenonemon reversed, at least outside of people with political careers.

    Millenials, and even more generation Z are the opposite and boast about their minority roots..

    And this despite the fact nationalities like Jews are still unpopular politically. (And on websites like this one, the most unpopular nationality of all).

    So you can see how uncool it was to be Jewish USSR, by comparing to the reverse behaviour today.

    Replies: @German_reader, @Epigon, @for-the-record

    They didn’t have “a greater capacity for studying”, they literally exterminated and expelled the previous professors and students during and after the Revolution.

    Why are you trying to spin the well known facts on the percentage of Jewish students in 1920s Moscow and Leningrad Universities?
    Do you need a reminder on the rerun of that same tribalism and nepotism in the United States today, where they are vastly overrepresented at Ivy League, but not so much at CalTech and MIT?

  405. @Dmitry
    @German_reader

    Not in every scenario though.

    Israel is multiracial and multireligious. At the same time, it is in internal demographic war between Jews and Muslims.

    Increasing immigration of non-Jewish nationalities which would be loyal to Israel, and at the same of not too low human capital, could improve the demographic balance to become more patriotic and less Muslim in some cases.

    There's already small examples of loyal non-Jewish immigrants, like the Vietnamese Boat People which were given Israeli citizenship and are reportedly very patriotic, Circassians (who are actually Muslim and arrived in Palestine in the late 19th century), or Christian illegal and legal immigrants from countries like Colombia and Philippines, whose children are conscripted to the Israeli army and then receive Israeli citizenship.

    Obviously, I don't think giving citizenship to Sudanese and Eritrean illegal immigrants would help Israel's demographics, because they already just boosted the crime and rape rate there.

    -

    But remember Jewish immigration can also be difficult for Israel. Haredi Jews are often burning Israel flags and could undermine the state, and are generally superstitious clowns. And I've read about Ethiopian Jews, that they cost Israel $100,000 of government spending to absorb each immigrant (they establish special schools in their language, free housing and have to teach them basic skills).

    Replies: @Epigon

    Calling Israel multiracial, multicultural and/or multiconfessional – really? Are you for real, this oblivious? This isn’t autism, as others might have concluded.

    Israel not being 100% Jewish doesn’t make it a multiracial and multiconfessional country. Having ethnic specific laws and rights, state religion immediately disproves your claim.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @Epigon

    What's the purpose of your stupid reply.

    Israel is pretty multiracial, multicultural and multiconfessional. I enjoy it in small quantities, but the overall effect on me of that level of multiculturalism in a small area, is stress as well.

    That's my main problem with Israel. (I would prefer it if was more homogenous).

    Different villages, have different races and religions. You can drive from the Druze village, to the Circassian village, to the Maronite village, to Arab village, to the mainly Russian-speaking town, to French-speaking Moroccan area, to the Haredi town, to Ethiopian immigrant area, to even areas which are conquered by Sudanese women in Hijabs.

    Jews themselves have a hundred different races there, although primarily quite brown.

    Whole place is full of different kinds of immigrants, and even Christian Latinos, Indians, Filipinos and Chinese gastarbeiters.
    In terms of religion, all kinds of church , mosque and synagogue.

    Multiconfessional means, even secular hipsters in Tel Aviv cafes,can have (misfortune in my view) to sit under the noise of the Mosque.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ceaS5hcHZak

  406. Jewish techno party.

  407. @Mr. XYZ
    @German_reader

    Mass intermarriage between Jews and non-Jews combined with a more flexible and inclusive definition of "Who is a Jew?" would solve that problem. I mean, I'm only a quarter Jewish to my knowledge in terms of ancestry and yet I still identify as Jewish.

    Replies: @Dmitry

    Israel probably needs a more targeted and filtered immigration system.

    They have so many demographic nightmares, they don’t need to increase them.

    You can read how Israel’s “Law of Return” is accepting now Ukrainian – presumably because they have Jewish descent – nationalist trash.

    E,g,

    Обвинение: житель Петах-Тиквы жестоко избил женщину за то, что та ответила ему по-русски

    Началось все с того, что Андрей Довженко задал вопрос по-украински, а в ответ услышал русскую речь

    https://www.vesty.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-5017036,00.html

    Reader comments below article:

    В Израиле уже давно мирно живут между собой выходцы из любых бывших союзных республик. И только новые репатрианты из Украины последней волны, вносят раздор. Приведу пример. В магазине Суперсаль была очередь в кассу. Покупательница никак не могла понять продавщицу на иврите. Некто из очереди взялся помочь с переводом и обратился к покупательнице по русски. Вместо благодарности он получил грубый ответ, что она не желает разговаривать по русски, а только на мове. Еще раз подчеркну, что это происходило в Израле, а не в Украине или России. Неужели кто то думает, что после таких случаев кто то захочет помогать этим личностям? Пока что от них только неприятный осадок.

    In other cases, at least it seems like illegal immigrants:

    В Петах-Тикве украинец убил молдаванина за слово “хохол”

    But then there the way dresses one of Israel’s (former) main news presenters (Bandera t-shirt is cool):

    • Replies: @Mr. XYZ
    @Dmitry

    Accepting Russians, Belarusians, and eastern/southern Ukrainians would be better than accepting western Ukrainians, no?

    For that matter, might as well throw some Chinese, Vietnamese, and Hindus in there.

    Replies: @Dmitry

  408. @DFH
    @German_reader


    Mohammed Atta probably had a fairly high IQ by Egyptian standards.
     
    I think most 'fundamentalist' Muslims (or whatever you want to call them) have a higher than average IQ for their groups; for instance, students and in particular engineering or medical students are/were very over-represented among them in Arab countries

    Replies: @Mr. XYZ

    That’s certainly very possible. That said, though, why is Muslim fundamentalism largely absent from the US?

  409. @German_reader
    @Mr. XYZ


    That way, maybe there would be less violence whenever someone draws a cartoon of Muhammad.
     
    Mohammed Atta probably had a fairly high IQ by Egyptian standards.
    "Doing multiculturalism wrong"...multiculturalism is wrong per se, there isn't any right version of it. All that "the US is so much better at integrating Muslims" stuff is garbage as well, there have been plenty of Islamic terror attacks in the US, and people like Ilhan Omar obviously aren't integrated into any meaningful American identity at all (even though they use SJW language for promoting their Islamic agenda).

    Replies: @DFH, @Mr. XYZ

    I did previously see a chart that showed that US Muslims were, on average, much more educated than European Muslims were. Would you like to see this chart?

    As for Ilhan Omar, Yes, she does appear to be a relatively high-IQ Muslim (AFAIK, her family were from Somalia’s elite) and Yes, she does appear to have a lot of ethnic flair left in her. However, what exactly do you find objectionable about her besides her lack of assimilation? I mean, her comments about Jewish money might very well be true–and she does appear to be a typical progressive on social issues (which is good in some cases and bad in other cases, but that’s true for a lot of White American progressives as well–not just non-White immigrant progressives).

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @Mr. XYZ


    I did previously see a chart that showed that US Muslims were, on average, much more educated than European Muslims were.
     
    Education by itself is a pretty meaningless metric. Lots of leading SS men had Phd degrees...would you have liked them as immigrants, in your neighbourhood maybe?
    iirc there are polls though which supposedly show Muslims in the US are comparatively liberal on stuff like homos and trannies...hard to evaluate though how genuine that is.
    I doubt though it's true that there's no "Islamic fundamentalism" in the US, arguments along those lines always seemed made up to me, just a way for US "conservatives" to bash Europeans for their alleged "racism" and to brag about American superiority.

    However, what exactly do you find objectionable about her besides her lack of assimilation?
     
    Her people cause nothing but problems in all the Western countries which have been foolish enough to take in Somalis, it's the height of insolence that such people attain political office (which they of course will use for advancing their Islamic agenda).

    Replies: @Mr. XYZ

  410. @Dmitry
    @Mr. XYZ

    Israel probably needs a more targeted and filtered immigration system.

    They have so many demographic nightmares, they don't need to increase them.

    You can read how Israel's "Law of Return" is accepting now Ukrainian - presumably because they have Jewish descent - nationalist trash.

    E,g,


    Обвинение: житель Петах-Тиквы жестоко избил женщину за то, что та ответила ему по-русски

    Началось все с того, что Андрей Довженко задал вопрос по-украински, а в ответ услышал русскую речь

    https://www.vesty.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-5017036,00.html

     

    Reader comments below article:

    В Израиле уже давно мирно живут между собой выходцы из любых бывших союзных республик. И только новые репатрианты из Украины последней волны, вносят раздор. Приведу пример. В магазине Суперсаль была очередь в кассу. Покупательница никак не могла понять продавщицу на иврите. Некто из очереди взялся помочь с переводом и обратился к покупательнице по русски. Вместо благодарности он получил грубый ответ, что она не желает разговаривать по русски, а только на мове. Еще раз подчеркну, что это происходило в Израле, а не в Украине или России. Неужели кто то думает, что после таких случаев кто то захочет помогать этим личностям? Пока что от них только неприятный осадок.

     

    In other cases, at least it seems like illegal immigrants:

    В Петах-Тикве украинец убил молдаванина за слово "хохол"

     

    --

    But then there the way dresses one of Israel's (former) main news presenters (Bandera t-shirt is cool):

    https://i.imgur.com/Dn28mHO.jpg

    https://i.imgur.com/yQvi5dY.jpg

    Replies: @Mr. XYZ

    Accepting Russians, Belarusians, and eastern/southern Ukrainians would be better than accepting western Ukrainians, no?

    For that matter, might as well throw some Chinese, Vietnamese, and Hindus in there.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @Mr. XYZ


    For that matter, might as well throw some Chinese, Vietnamese, and Hindus in there.

     

    You mean as legal immigrants?

    There's a lot of Indians in Israel. I'm not sure which are Hindu and which are Jewish.

    Some of them are probably illegal immigrants. There are videos people post of Indians crushing the Ukrainians and Russian illegal immigrants for refugee status (those are obviously Hindus/Muslims).

    But I saw some large Indian families, wearing Indian costumes, in the supermarket in Bat Yam (they might be Indian Jews, who appear the same race as Indian Hindus).

    Also I noticed how Tel Aviv is flooded with Chinese people, but they are guest workers there and investors.

    Vietnamese in Israel, are just from the Boat People. A boat of them was captured by an Israeli ship and given citizenship in 1979. So they are Israeli citizens.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hU4MLRofKJg


    Israel does not have bureaucracy to manage their level of illegal immigrants

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ur5pzfYArZo

    Illegal immigrants from countries like Sudan, Somalia, and Eritrea, are allowed to live in Israel without restrictions.

    It's from countries Israel has good diplomatic relations, that they deport the illegal immigrants.

    So Ukrainians, are all deported, and apply for refugee status. And Indians, probably the same.

    Replies: @Dmitry, @Mr. XYZ

  411. German_reader says:
    @Mr. XYZ
    @German_reader

    I did previously see a chart that showed that US Muslims were, on average, much more educated than European Muslims were. Would you like to see this chart?

    As for Ilhan Omar, Yes, she does appear to be a relatively high-IQ Muslim (AFAIK, her family were from Somalia's elite) and Yes, she does appear to have a lot of ethnic flair left in her. However, what exactly do you find objectionable about her besides her lack of assimilation? I mean, her comments about Jewish money might very well be true--and she does appear to be a typical progressive on social issues (which is good in some cases and bad in other cases, but that's true for a lot of White American progressives as well--not just non-White immigrant progressives).

    Replies: @German_reader

    I did previously see a chart that showed that US Muslims were, on average, much more educated than European Muslims were.

    Education by itself is a pretty meaningless metric. Lots of leading SS men had Phd degrees…would you have liked them as immigrants, in your neighbourhood maybe?
    iirc there are polls though which supposedly show Muslims in the US are comparatively liberal on stuff like homos and trannies…hard to evaluate though how genuine that is.
    I doubt though it’s true that there’s no “Islamic fundamentalism” in the US, arguments along those lines always seemed made up to me, just a way for US “conservatives” to bash Europeans for their alleged “racism” and to brag about American superiority.

    However, what exactly do you find objectionable about her besides her lack of assimilation?

    Her people cause nothing but problems in all the Western countries which have been foolish enough to take in Somalis, it’s the height of insolence that such people attain political office (which they of course will use for advancing their Islamic agenda).

    • Replies: @Mr. XYZ
    @German_reader

    Yeah, I've seen a poll that a majority of US Muslims nowadays support same-sex marriage. I suspect that it's probably accurate since even a bare majority of US Blacks support same-sex marriage nowadays. I don't think that large numbers of US Muslims and US Blacks are lying about this.

    Also, it's not that there's no Islamic fundamentalism in the US, but that it appears to be rarer in the US than in Western Europe. Of course, that might simply be anecdotal evidence--so let's see if someone can find more concrete data on this.

    As for education, you're correct that one can be well-educated and still hold backwards views. For instance, a working-class American might be more tolerant of LGBT people than an educated Russian would be. Still, my hunch would be that, on average, higher IQ people are more progressive than lower IQ people are. Of course, this could sometimes result in negative consequences--such as the denial of the possibility of genetic group differences in regards to various human traits--such as intelligence, criminality, corruption, et cetera.

    As for Somalis, the trick is the only import the smartest members of their community. Then we'd probably have a lot of Ilhan Omars but not so much crime and terrorism.

    Replies: @German_reader

  412. @German_reader
    @Mr. XYZ


    I did previously see a chart that showed that US Muslims were, on average, much more educated than European Muslims were.
     
    Education by itself is a pretty meaningless metric. Lots of leading SS men had Phd degrees...would you have liked them as immigrants, in your neighbourhood maybe?
    iirc there are polls though which supposedly show Muslims in the US are comparatively liberal on stuff like homos and trannies...hard to evaluate though how genuine that is.
    I doubt though it's true that there's no "Islamic fundamentalism" in the US, arguments along those lines always seemed made up to me, just a way for US "conservatives" to bash Europeans for their alleged "racism" and to brag about American superiority.

    However, what exactly do you find objectionable about her besides her lack of assimilation?
     
    Her people cause nothing but problems in all the Western countries which have been foolish enough to take in Somalis, it's the height of insolence that such people attain political office (which they of course will use for advancing their Islamic agenda).

    Replies: @Mr. XYZ

    Yeah, I’ve seen a poll that a majority of US Muslims nowadays support same-sex marriage. I suspect that it’s probably accurate since even a bare majority of US Blacks support same-sex marriage nowadays. I don’t think that large numbers of US Muslims and US Blacks are lying about this.

    Also, it’s not that there’s no Islamic fundamentalism in the US, but that it appears to be rarer in the US than in Western Europe. Of course, that might simply be anecdotal evidence–so let’s see if someone can find more concrete data on this.

    As for education, you’re correct that one can be well-educated and still hold backwards views. For instance, a working-class American might be more tolerant of LGBT people than an educated Russian would be. Still, my hunch would be that, on average, higher IQ people are more progressive than lower IQ people are. Of course, this could sometimes result in negative consequences–such as the denial of the possibility of genetic group differences in regards to various human traits–such as intelligence, criminality, corruption, et cetera.

    As for Somalis, the trick is the only import the smartest members of their community. Then we’d probably have a lot of Ilhan Omars but not so much crime and terrorism.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @Mr. XYZ


    As for Somalis, the trick is the only import the smartest members of their community.
     
    There's an even better trick...don't let any of them immigrate at all.

    Replies: @Mr. XYZ

  413. I’ve read that Minnesota has a problem with Somali gangs. Thus, it really does look like the US was a bit too welcoming to Somalis and that it should have been more selective in regards to which Somalis it accepted.

  414. @Mr. XYZ
    @Dmitry

    Accepting Russians, Belarusians, and eastern/southern Ukrainians would be better than accepting western Ukrainians, no?

    For that matter, might as well throw some Chinese, Vietnamese, and Hindus in there.

    Replies: @Dmitry

    For that matter, might as well throw some Chinese, Vietnamese, and Hindus in there.

    You mean as legal immigrants?

    There’s a lot of Indians in Israel. I’m not sure which are Hindu and which are Jewish.

    Some of them are probably illegal immigrants. There are videos people post of Indians crushing the Ukrainians and Russian illegal immigrants for refugee status (those are obviously Hindus/Muslims).

    But I saw some large Indian families, wearing Indian costumes, in the supermarket in Bat Yam (they might be Indian Jews, who appear the same race as Indian Hindus).

    Also I noticed how Tel Aviv is flooded with Chinese people, but they are guest workers there and investors.

    Vietnamese in Israel, are just from the Boat People. A boat of them was captured by an Israeli ship and given citizenship in 1979. So they are Israeli citizens.

    Israel does not have bureaucracy to manage their level of illegal immigrants

    Illegal immigrants from countries like Sudan, Somalia, and Eritrea, are allowed to live in Israel without restrictions.

    It’s from countries Israel has good diplomatic relations, that they deport the illegal immigrants.

    So Ukrainians, are all deported, and apply for refugee status. And Indians, probably the same.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @Dmitry

    The refugee status queue in Israel, also has some Central Asians. I also saw those last year. (Israel has good relations with Central Asia, so the illegal immigrants from there are probably deported).

    Nobody can queue

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6b9SgQJGghM

    , @Mr. XYZ
    @Dmitry


    You mean as legal immigrants?
     
    Yes, of course. Smart Hindus immigrating to Israel en masse could help strengthen it.
  415. @Dmitry
    @Mr. XYZ


    For that matter, might as well throw some Chinese, Vietnamese, and Hindus in there.

     

    You mean as legal immigrants?

    There's a lot of Indians in Israel. I'm not sure which are Hindu and which are Jewish.

    Some of them are probably illegal immigrants. There are videos people post of Indians crushing the Ukrainians and Russian illegal immigrants for refugee status (those are obviously Hindus/Muslims).

    But I saw some large Indian families, wearing Indian costumes, in the supermarket in Bat Yam (they might be Indian Jews, who appear the same race as Indian Hindus).

    Also I noticed how Tel Aviv is flooded with Chinese people, but they are guest workers there and investors.

    Vietnamese in Israel, are just from the Boat People. A boat of them was captured by an Israeli ship and given citizenship in 1979. So they are Israeli citizens.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hU4MLRofKJg


    Israel does not have bureaucracy to manage their level of illegal immigrants

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ur5pzfYArZo

    Illegal immigrants from countries like Sudan, Somalia, and Eritrea, are allowed to live in Israel without restrictions.

    It's from countries Israel has good diplomatic relations, that they deport the illegal immigrants.

    So Ukrainians, are all deported, and apply for refugee status. And Indians, probably the same.

    Replies: @Dmitry, @Mr. XYZ

    The refugee status queue in Israel, also has some Central Asians. I also saw those last year. (Israel has good relations with Central Asia, so the illegal immigrants from there are probably deported).

    Nobody can queue

  416. @Mr. XYZ
    @German_reader

    Yeah, I've seen a poll that a majority of US Muslims nowadays support same-sex marriage. I suspect that it's probably accurate since even a bare majority of US Blacks support same-sex marriage nowadays. I don't think that large numbers of US Muslims and US Blacks are lying about this.

    Also, it's not that there's no Islamic fundamentalism in the US, but that it appears to be rarer in the US than in Western Europe. Of course, that might simply be anecdotal evidence--so let's see if someone can find more concrete data on this.

    As for education, you're correct that one can be well-educated and still hold backwards views. For instance, a working-class American might be more tolerant of LGBT people than an educated Russian would be. Still, my hunch would be that, on average, higher IQ people are more progressive than lower IQ people are. Of course, this could sometimes result in negative consequences--such as the denial of the possibility of genetic group differences in regards to various human traits--such as intelligence, criminality, corruption, et cetera.

    As for Somalis, the trick is the only import the smartest members of their community. Then we'd probably have a lot of Ilhan Omars but not so much crime and terrorism.

    Replies: @German_reader

    As for Somalis, the trick is the only import the smartest members of their community.

    There’s an even better trick…don’t let any of them immigrate at all.

    • Replies: @Mr. XYZ
    @German_reader

    So, you wouldn't even want Somalis like Ayaan Hirsi Ali?

    Replies: @German_reader, @Thorfinnsson

  417. @Epigon
    @Dmitry

    Calling Israel multiracial, multicultural and/or multiconfessional - really? Are you for real, this oblivious? This isn’t autism, as others might have concluded.

    Israel not being 100% Jewish doesn’t make it a multiracial and multiconfessional country. Having ethnic specific laws and rights, state religion immediately disproves your claim.

    Replies: @Dmitry

    What’s the purpose of your stupid reply.

    Israel is pretty multiracial, multicultural and multiconfessional. I enjoy it in small quantities, but the overall effect on me of that level of multiculturalism in a small area, is stress as well.

    That’s my main problem with Israel. (I would prefer it if was more homogenous).

    Different villages, have different races and religions. You can drive from the Druze village, to the Circassian village, to the Maronite village, to Arab village, to the mainly Russian-speaking town, to French-speaking Moroccan area, to the Haredi town, to Ethiopian immigrant area, to even areas which are conquered by Sudanese women in Hijabs.

    Jews themselves have a hundred different races there, although primarily quite brown.

    Whole place is full of different kinds of immigrants, and even Christian Latinos, Indians, Filipinos and Chinese gastarbeiters.
    In terms of religion, all kinds of church , mosque and synagogue.

    Multiconfessional means, even secular hipsters in Tel Aviv cafes,can have (misfortune in my view) to sit under the noise of the Mosque.

  418. @AP
    @Adam

    My people never took welfare, paid taxes and in the case of my father employed dozens of well-paid Americans in his company. They also vote Republican and for Trump for the same reasons most people here did. But yes - my father in his 70s says he'll be fine but we or our children can always go to Ukraine if the Left sinks America.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @Gerard2, @Mr. XYZ

    “My people”…a false and insincere moron phrase in this context…not least with a fantasist fucktard as yourself, who for purposes of attention-whoring on the internet….metamorphasises as a Polish,Austrian anti-Banderite, Banderite, Dagestani-Canadia freakshow. Anyway the Banderite scumbags, probably the poorest non-African ethnic group in America , settled in quite, obscure places not employing many people after being smuggled out of execution , by the CIA..a bit like British paedophiles settled in Australia

    But yes – my father in his 70s says he’ll be fine but we or our children can always go to Ukraine if the Left sinks America

    …I think we all know there isn;t a chance in hell of that occuring ( you freaks going to Ukraine)..or donating a cent to it.

    • Disagree: Mr. Hack
  419. @German_reader
    @Mr. XYZ


    As for Somalis, the trick is the only import the smartest members of their community.
     
    There's an even better trick...don't let any of them immigrate at all.

    Replies: @Mr. XYZ

    So, you wouldn’t even want Somalis like Ayaan Hirsi Ali?

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @Mr. XYZ


    So, you wouldn’t even want Somalis like Ayaan Hirsi Ali?
     
    No, why would I want to? She's merely talking about problems that wouldn't exist if people of her background weren't in Western countries. It's not like she's made any genuinely useful contribution like finding new antibiotics, bringing us closer to cold fusion or whatever.
    The only other "good" Somali I can think of is Mo Farrah, but he's merely getting a lot of money for being able to run fast, which is also isn't anything that is really worthy of respect imo.
    Somalis just come across as one of the most horrible and useless peoples on earth, I can't think of a single good reason why one would want them as immigrants.

    You seem to be in thrall to some strange immigrationist ideology...which seems to be mainly motivated by the fact that you're an immigrant yourself. Which isn't a very convincing reason to the nationalist commenters here like me.

    Replies: @Mr. XYZ

    , @Thorfinnsson
    @Mr. XYZ

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f8/Ayaan_Hirsi_Ali_by_Gage_Skidmore.jpg

    Not hot

    Replies: @Mr. XYZ

  420. @Dmitry
    @Mr. XYZ


    For that matter, might as well throw some Chinese, Vietnamese, and Hindus in there.

     

    You mean as legal immigrants?

    There's a lot of Indians in Israel. I'm not sure which are Hindu and which are Jewish.

    Some of them are probably illegal immigrants. There are videos people post of Indians crushing the Ukrainians and Russian illegal immigrants for refugee status (those are obviously Hindus/Muslims).

    But I saw some large Indian families, wearing Indian costumes, in the supermarket in Bat Yam (they might be Indian Jews, who appear the same race as Indian Hindus).

    Also I noticed how Tel Aviv is flooded with Chinese people, but they are guest workers there and investors.

    Vietnamese in Israel, are just from the Boat People. A boat of them was captured by an Israeli ship and given citizenship in 1979. So they are Israeli citizens.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hU4MLRofKJg


    Israel does not have bureaucracy to manage their level of illegal immigrants

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ur5pzfYArZo

    Illegal immigrants from countries like Sudan, Somalia, and Eritrea, are allowed to live in Israel without restrictions.

    It's from countries Israel has good diplomatic relations, that they deport the illegal immigrants.

    So Ukrainians, are all deported, and apply for refugee status. And Indians, probably the same.

    Replies: @Dmitry, @Mr. XYZ

    You mean as legal immigrants?

    Yes, of course. Smart Hindus immigrating to Israel en masse could help strengthen it.

  421. German_reader says:
    @Mr. XYZ
    @German_reader

    So, you wouldn't even want Somalis like Ayaan Hirsi Ali?

    Replies: @German_reader, @Thorfinnsson

    So, you wouldn’t even want Somalis like Ayaan Hirsi Ali?

    No, why would I want to? She’s merely talking about problems that wouldn’t exist if people of her background weren’t in Western countries. It’s not like she’s made any genuinely useful contribution like finding new antibiotics, bringing us closer to cold fusion or whatever.
    The only other “good” Somali I can think of is Mo Farrah, but he’s merely getting a lot of money for being able to run fast, which is also isn’t anything that is really worthy of respect imo.
    Somalis just come across as one of the most horrible and useless peoples on earth, I can’t think of a single good reason why one would want them as immigrants.

    You seem to be in thrall to some strange immigrationist ideology…which seems to be mainly motivated by the fact that you’re an immigrant yourself. Which isn’t a very convincing reason to the nationalist commenters here like me.

    • Agree: songbird, Adam
    • Replies: @Mr. XYZ
    @German_reader

    Technically speaking, by your criteria, the overwhelming majority of immigrants are going to be useless. 99% of immigrants probably aren't going to be able to do the things that you want.

    Also, No, my own position in regards to immigration isn't as liberal as you think it is. I don't think that the fact that I am an immigrant myself is a sufficient reason to bring additional immigrants to this country. I do think that immigrants and their descendants shouldn't drag down a country's average IQ or to bring radical ideas into their host countries. I do want immigrants who are not going to harm this country to have the chance to come to this country for a good life, though. Of course, California is already probably overcrowded enough as it is--but US states such as Texas still have a lot of available space.

    Replies: @German_reader

  422. @Mr. XYZ
    @German_reader

    So, you wouldn't even want Somalis like Ayaan Hirsi Ali?

    Replies: @German_reader, @Thorfinnsson


    Not hot

    • Replies: @Mr. XYZ
    @Thorfinnsson

    Eh ... she's relatively attractive for a Semitic Black woman.

  423. @German_reader
    @Mr. XYZ


    So, you wouldn’t even want Somalis like Ayaan Hirsi Ali?
     
    No, why would I want to? She's merely talking about problems that wouldn't exist if people of her background weren't in Western countries. It's not like she's made any genuinely useful contribution like finding new antibiotics, bringing us closer to cold fusion or whatever.
    The only other "good" Somali I can think of is Mo Farrah, but he's merely getting a lot of money for being able to run fast, which is also isn't anything that is really worthy of respect imo.
    Somalis just come across as one of the most horrible and useless peoples on earth, I can't think of a single good reason why one would want them as immigrants.

    You seem to be in thrall to some strange immigrationist ideology...which seems to be mainly motivated by the fact that you're an immigrant yourself. Which isn't a very convincing reason to the nationalist commenters here like me.

    Replies: @Mr. XYZ

    Technically speaking, by your criteria, the overwhelming majority of immigrants are going to be useless. 99% of immigrants probably aren’t going to be able to do the things that you want.

    Also, No, my own position in regards to immigration isn’t as liberal as you think it is. I don’t think that the fact that I am an immigrant myself is a sufficient reason to bring additional immigrants to this country. I do think that immigrants and their descendants shouldn’t drag down a country’s average IQ or to bring radical ideas into their host countries. I do want immigrants who are not going to harm this country to have the chance to come to this country for a good life, though. Of course, California is already probably overcrowded enough as it is–but US states such as Texas still have a lot of available space.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @Mr. XYZ


    I do want immigrants who are not going to harm this country to have the chance to come to this country for a good life, though.
     
    What makes you think they deserve a good life and why should that be of any relevance for their immigration to the US?
    If immigration is allowed at all, it should be solely for reasons of increasing national power, e.g. for attracting useful specialists like Wernher von Braun and other German rocket scientists (odd how that immigration isn't celebrated anymore as a success story in the US, offends me somewhat).

    Replies: @Mr. XYZ

  424. @Thorfinnsson
    @Mr. XYZ

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f8/Ayaan_Hirsi_Ali_by_Gage_Skidmore.jpg

    Not hot

    Replies: @Mr. XYZ

    Eh … she’s relatively attractive for a Semitic Black woman.

  425. @AP
    @Adam

    My people never took welfare, paid taxes and in the case of my father employed dozens of well-paid Americans in his company. They also vote Republican and for Trump for the same reasons most people here did. But yes - my father in his 70s says he'll be fine but we or our children can always go to Ukraine if the Left sinks America.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @Gerard2, @Mr. XYZ

    What exactly made the Republicans so attractive to your people? Before Trump, they appear to have in large part been pro-immigration just like the Democrats are.

    • Replies: @AP
    @Mr. XYZ

    Anti-communism abroad and anti-socialism at home.

    Replies: @Dmitry, @Mr. XYZ

  426. German_reader says:
    @Mr. XYZ
    @German_reader

    Technically speaking, by your criteria, the overwhelming majority of immigrants are going to be useless. 99% of immigrants probably aren't going to be able to do the things that you want.

    Also, No, my own position in regards to immigration isn't as liberal as you think it is. I don't think that the fact that I am an immigrant myself is a sufficient reason to bring additional immigrants to this country. I do think that immigrants and their descendants shouldn't drag down a country's average IQ or to bring radical ideas into their host countries. I do want immigrants who are not going to harm this country to have the chance to come to this country for a good life, though. Of course, California is already probably overcrowded enough as it is--but US states such as Texas still have a lot of available space.

    Replies: @German_reader

    I do want immigrants who are not going to harm this country to have the chance to come to this country for a good life, though.

    What makes you think they deserve a good life and why should that be of any relevance for their immigration to the US?
    If immigration is allowed at all, it should be solely for reasons of increasing national power, e.g. for attracting useful specialists like Wernher von Braun and other German rocket scientists (odd how that immigration isn’t celebrated anymore as a success story in the US, offends me somewhat).

    • Replies: @Mr. XYZ
    @German_reader

    Well, why don't you think people deserve a good life? I mean, even if people are going to be stuck in the Third World, one can argue that better-off countries have a duty to help out these unfortunates. It's similar to how some well-off Americans and Europeans believe in helping out those countrymen of theirs who are less fortunate--except on a global scale.

    Also, if immigration isn't going to reduce a country's average IQ or bring undesirable ideologies into a country, then a country's national power is going to be increased by immigration due to the fact that it is going to have more people--and of a comparable quality--than it would have had without immigration. This is why the US appears to have strongly benefited from immigration--at least until 1880 or so. I'm not sure if large-scale Italian immigration was good for the US, but large-scale Anglo-Saxon immigration was definitely good for the US. Large-scale Jewish immigration was also good for the US in the sense that it resulted in more technological progress in the US as well as in more social liberalism--which is a good thing in the sense that it advocates helping the common man--albeit with the undesirable effect of trying to censor all discussions about the genetics of IQ and especially genetic group differences in regards to important traits such as intelligence, criminality, corruption, et cetera.

    Replies: @Hyperborean, @Beckow, @Daniel.I

  427. @German_reader
    @Mr. XYZ


    I do want immigrants who are not going to harm this country to have the chance to come to this country for a good life, though.
     
    What makes you think they deserve a good life and why should that be of any relevance for their immigration to the US?
    If immigration is allowed at all, it should be solely for reasons of increasing national power, e.g. for attracting useful specialists like Wernher von Braun and other German rocket scientists (odd how that immigration isn't celebrated anymore as a success story in the US, offends me somewhat).

    Replies: @Mr. XYZ

    Well, why don’t you think people deserve a good life? I mean, even if people are going to be stuck in the Third World, one can argue that better-off countries have a duty to help out these unfortunates. It’s similar to how some well-off Americans and Europeans believe in helping out those countrymen of theirs who are less fortunate–except on a global scale.

    Also, if immigration isn’t going to reduce a country’s average IQ or bring undesirable ideologies into a country, then a country’s national power is going to be increased by immigration due to the fact that it is going to have more people–and of a comparable quality–than it would have had without immigration. This is why the US appears to have strongly benefited from immigration–at least until 1880 or so. I’m not sure if large-scale Italian immigration was good for the US, but large-scale Anglo-Saxon immigration was definitely good for the US. Large-scale Jewish immigration was also good for the US in the sense that it resulted in more technological progress in the US as well as in more social liberalism–which is a good thing in the sense that it advocates helping the common man–albeit with the undesirable effect of trying to censor all discussions about the genetics of IQ and especially genetic group differences in regards to important traits such as intelligence, criminality, corruption, et cetera.

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
    @Mr. XYZ

    Brushing aside issues like increased political corruption (the infamous "Three Is", Ireland, Italy and Israel which controlled NY City and other Democratic immigrant party machines, etc.) and diaspora hijacking of foreign policy.

    People are not interchangeable based on IQ and culture is very important. The movement of a certain race-nationality into or out of a particular geographical area will accordingly alter the characteristics of the area.

    To give an example of what is usually seen as a positive case, the German-Scandinavian mass-settlement of Midwestern states led to the creation of social democratic-influenced provinces, which still endure to an extent even a century after German culture in the USA was, for better or worse rapidly and harshly, eradicated.

    Karlin posted a while ago about the higher GDP per capita of Scandinavians in America compared to Scandinavian countries from some American libertarian think tank to extoll the perceived superiority of American economic liberalism.

    Accepting for the sake of the argument the premise that Americans who used to be Scandinavian live better due to the American economic regime and that material wealth should be prioritsed (I would object that, among other factors, increased geographic mobility and short employment terms contribute to American deracination), if Scandinavians comprised a larger part of the American population then the USA would look more like Scandinavia from an institutional perspective.

    But if that were the case then America would be a different country (and Scandinavians wouldn't be richer, implicitly defeating Karlin’s point).

    I, personally, would see this as a positive but given that libertarianism in all parts of life, and Manchester Liberalism in general, seem like a very important ethno-ideological component of American identity it would be quite fair for Americans to object to such an meta-ethnic alteration of their culture.

    My argument is a bit specific here but in reality this would apply to all facets of general daily life as well as culture, politics, national self-conception, foreign policy, etc. Really, almost everything is affected.

    Now, you might retort that this would be solved with interethnic breeding and indoctrination through mass culture and education, however I see this as an unlikely prospect.

    In the past, the USA was far more self-confident, had a functional core around which to assimilate and was willing to engage in harsher measures. And even with that, despite attempting to absorb nationalities who were far closer from a cultural perspective, amalgamated America still ended up with a Euromutt identity.

    The America that exists today is one where ethnic strife is increasingly ingrained into the foundation of life. Intermarriage will mainly lead to the white core growing smaller as their children will assimilate to non-titular nationalities in places where non-whites maintain local and regional numerical and cultural dominance and due to the state and social promotion of non-titular nationalities even in places where the titular nationality has a majority.

    Particularly important, I believe, will be the psychological shift that occurs when the titular nationality drops to mid-40s%.

    , @Beckow
    @Mr. XYZ


    ...even if people are going to be stuck in the Third World, one can argue that better-off countries have a duty to help out these unfortunates.
     
    Why? Is it a religious duty? Who exactly is it good for? Unless, pretty much all Third Worlders are allowed to 'better' themselves by departing for richer shores - and that's unlikely - all you are doing is adding a burden for the advanced world, and facilitating money (and some brain) migration away from the poorest parts of the world. If the departing Third Worlders have no stake in their own societies, and all they do is plot how to leave, that makes their Third World even worse.

    Replies: @DFH

    , @Daniel.I
    @Mr. XYZ


    Large-scale Jewish immigration was also good for the US
     
    One curious pattern of history is that as soon as the kikes reach critical mass, they set in motion a chain of events that leads to themselves stuck in ovens.

    You'd have to be blind not to realize that we're literally dealing with the synagogue of Satan here.
  428. @Epigon
    @reiner Tor

    Is there a lot of media noise regarding the arrival of International Investment Bank to Budapest?

    Replies: @reiner Tor

    Yes, a lot of negative publicity by the liberal press. They talk about the privileges given to “Putin’s bank.” I brought it up here, Karlin made a post about it.

  429. @Mr. XYZ
    @German_reader

    Well, why don't you think people deserve a good life? I mean, even if people are going to be stuck in the Third World, one can argue that better-off countries have a duty to help out these unfortunates. It's similar to how some well-off Americans and Europeans believe in helping out those countrymen of theirs who are less fortunate--except on a global scale.

    Also, if immigration isn't going to reduce a country's average IQ or bring undesirable ideologies into a country, then a country's national power is going to be increased by immigration due to the fact that it is going to have more people--and of a comparable quality--than it would have had without immigration. This is why the US appears to have strongly benefited from immigration--at least until 1880 or so. I'm not sure if large-scale Italian immigration was good for the US, but large-scale Anglo-Saxon immigration was definitely good for the US. Large-scale Jewish immigration was also good for the US in the sense that it resulted in more technological progress in the US as well as in more social liberalism--which is a good thing in the sense that it advocates helping the common man--albeit with the undesirable effect of trying to censor all discussions about the genetics of IQ and especially genetic group differences in regards to important traits such as intelligence, criminality, corruption, et cetera.

    Replies: @Hyperborean, @Beckow, @Daniel.I

    Brushing aside issues like increased political corruption (the infamous “Three Is”, Ireland, Italy and Israel which controlled NY City and other Democratic immigrant party machines, etc.) and diaspora hijacking of foreign policy.

    People are not interchangeable based on IQ and culture is very important. The movement of a certain race-nationality into or out of a particular geographical area will accordingly alter the characteristics of the area.

    To give an example of what is usually seen as a positive case, the German-Scandinavian mass-settlement of Midwestern states led to the creation of social democratic-influenced provinces, which still endure to an extent even a century after German culture in the USA was, for better or worse rapidly and harshly, eradicated.

    Karlin posted a while ago about the higher GDP per capita of Scandinavians in America compared to Scandinavian countries from some American libertarian think tank to extoll the perceived superiority of American economic liberalism.

    Accepting for the sake of the argument the premise that Americans who used to be Scandinavian live better due to the American economic regime and that material wealth should be prioritsed (I would object that, among other factors, increased geographic mobility and short employment terms contribute to American deracination), if Scandinavians comprised a larger part of the American population then the USA would look more like Scandinavia from an institutional perspective.

    But if that were the case then America would be a different country (and Scandinavians wouldn’t be richer, implicitly defeating Karlin’s point).

    I, personally, would see this as a positive but given that libertarianism in all parts of life, and Manchester Liberalism in general, seem like a very important ethno-ideological component of American identity it would be quite fair for Americans to object to such an meta-ethnic alteration of their culture.

    My argument is a bit specific here but in reality this would apply to all facets of general daily life as well as culture, politics, national self-conception, foreign policy, etc. Really, almost everything is affected.

    Now, you might retort that this would be solved with interethnic breeding and indoctrination through mass culture and education, however I see this as an unlikely prospect.

    In the past, the USA was far more self-confident, had a functional core around which to assimilate and was willing to engage in harsher measures. And even with that, despite attempting to absorb nationalities who were far closer from a cultural perspective, amalgamated America still ended up with a Euromutt identity.

    The America that exists today is one where ethnic strife is increasingly ingrained into the foundation of life. Intermarriage will mainly lead to the white core growing smaller as their children will assimilate to non-titular nationalities in places where non-whites maintain local and regional numerical and cultural dominance and due to the state and social promotion of non-titular nationalities even in places where the titular nationality has a majority.

    Particularly important, I believe, will be the psychological shift that occurs when the titular nationality drops to mid-40s%.

  430. @Mr. XYZ
    @AP

    What exactly made the Republicans so attractive to your people? Before Trump, they appear to have in large part been pro-immigration just like the Democrats are.

    Replies: @AP

    Anti-communism abroad and anti-socialism at home.

    • Agree: Mr. Hack
    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @AP

    "Anti-socialism" is very good and admirable. But I can't see how you would ever emigrate from America to Ukraine, on that basis. It would always be the opposite.

    America is still the centre of capitalism and has a lot of legal protections for private property. And for private citizens, USA is even better than Western Europe in areas like inheritance tax law.* (Although, for businesses, the corporation tax in America is still higher than many EU states).

    But what can you say about Ukraine?

    Even if we judge it by "pro-capitalist" economic reforms and projects, which politicians are promoting to international investors there, like the privatization of Odessa Port Plant.

    It was supposed to be the first major privatization in Ukraine since the coup. And yet years later, the result is no international investors wanted to buy it because of lack of accounting transparency and sense there would be enough private property protection.

    -
    *Western European countries like France and UK steal much of the money of people after they die. USA has something similar, but it only begins at around $11 million, so at least most ordinary Americans avoid this kind of open property-theft socialism.

    Replies: @AP

    , @Mr. XYZ
    @AP

    The interesting fact, though, is that I'm not sure that the Democrats were particularly less anti-Communist than the Republicans were during the Cold War. JFK ran as a hawk in 1960 and it was Nixon who reached out to China and who implemented detente with the Soviet Union.

    Also, what exactly did Ukrainians in the US have against the social safety net?

    BTW, did Ukrainians in the US continue voting Republican even after the end of the Cold War?

    Replies: @AP, @Mr. Hack

  431. @Thorfinnsson
    @Mr. Hack

    Speaking as someone who speaks a foreign tongue fluently, I can confirm that it is a great secret code for disparaging others in public spaces.

    One of the best things about living in a rural area is precisely the lack of diversity.

    I do like big cities, but unfortunately thanks to the never ending hell of immigration one is never at home in these cities.

    And even here in a rural area one suffers from this on the telephone. It's particularly bad in Canada, no doubt due to their high rate of immigration. Half the time when talking to Canadian businesses one ends up dealing with someone who has some gibberish non-European name and speaks broken, accented English.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @AP

    Speaking as someone who speaks a foreign tongue fluently, I can confirm that it is a great secret code for disparaging others in public spaces.

    You’re beginning to sound like one of those liberal politically correct cucktards. What’s wrong with speaking critically of others in private or in public, as long as it’s not overly mean spirited (especially in secret)? Remember the young kid who recently ‘smirked’ at the American Indian in public? Folks criticize each other here at this blog 24/7. Is it Swedish that you’re fluent in?

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    @Mr. Hack

    Yes, I am fluent in Swedish.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

  432. @Dmitry
    @melanf


    the ecological niche of Soviet Jews was the “middle class” (and rather the upper middle class). The average income of Soviet Jews and their level of education (and, accordingly, their social status)
     
    On average as total population, secularized Ashkenazi Jews probably had a higher capacity for studying, compared to other nationalities. In addition with internal cultural norms, it resulted in higher educational level and higher proportion of the population working as educated specialists (aside from overrepresentation in blackmarket economy).

    This is not saying anything about their social position as Jews. To be Jew, was not cool to be, socially in the USSR. It was surely among the more loser nationalities, socially.


    universal phenomenon around the world (e.g. the children of the Russian-German marriage in Russia

     

    But today the phenonemon reversed, at least outside of people with political careers.

    Millenials, and even more generation Z are the opposite and boast about their minority roots..

    And this despite the fact nationalities like Jews are still unpopular politically. (And on websites like this one, the most unpopular nationality of all).

    So you can see how uncool it was to be Jewish USSR, by comparing to the reverse behaviour today.

    Replies: @German_reader, @Epigon, @for-the-record

    On average as total population, secularized Ashkenazi Jews probably had a higher capacity for studying

    That’s one way of looking at it I guess. Here is another (referring to the situation in the mid-1920s):

    Some members of the prerevolutionary elite, in particular, resented the “antibourgeois” quotas in educational institutions and the subsequent rise of the Jewish immigrants as both prominent new Kulturträger and leading “proletarian” iconoclasts. The art historian A. Anisimov wrote to a colleague in Prague (in November 1923), “Out of 100 applicants to Moscow University, 78 are Jews; thus, if the Russian university is now in Prague, the Jewish one is in Moscow.” The father of a student about to be “purged” for alien origins wrote to a friend or relative in Serbia: “Pavel and his friends are awaiting their fate. But it’s clear that only the Jerusalem academics and the Communists, Party members generally, are going to stay.” And according to the wife of a Leningrad University professor, “in all the institutions, only workers and Israelites are admitted; the life of the intelligentsia is very hard.”

    Yuri Slezkine, The Jewish Century, pp. 243-244.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @for-the-record

    In the USSR academic, Ashkenazi Jews seemed more overrepresented in narrow areas like theoretical physics and maths. This led to "antisemitic" scandals, because there too many Jewish mathematicians and physicists entering the top. So they allegedly used some kind of systems and pressure to limit the number of Jewish mathematicians.

    I'm not expert in physics. But you can see in USSR physics, for example, the most famous "course on theoretical physics", has author names like "Landau and Lifshits".

    In the USSR, Ashkenazi Jews were a population who seemed to produce more nerdy teenagers than normal people (who were, according to themselves, often bullied at school).

    I was watching a television documentary about Perelman. And apparently in his teenage years, he was angry that some other Jewish nerd was the better school mathematician in his city. So as a result, he studied more and became successful. This is reflection of a more nerdy culture of the era.

    Also in the USSR, Jews were overrepresented as classical music professionals, and perhaps to some extent even in unrelated areas like ballet,.

    This is not indicative of intelligence ( i.e. classical music performers are not known for their intelligence). It is indicative more of proportionally higher attention span or capacity for studying as teenagers. And outside of the highest achievement, it also resulted in more Jewish engineers, doctors, etc.

    But I'm not sure if there was so much Jewish overrepresentation in academic areas like archaeologists, anthropologists etc. Jewish nerdy children were clearly most successful, in more formal disciplines, which rewarded long hours of nerdy study as teenagers.

    Today, this is clearly all a receding past. There is no sense universities in Russia are flooded today with too many Jewish nerds.

    In Ukraine, there might still exist some traces of the descendants of Jewish nerds in the computer science graduates. I was looking at social media of a friend I know from Odessa last week, and it looked like half of his computer scientist friends in Kiev, had a photo from free Jewish heritage vacations to Israel on their social media. Actually I had some impression that there is a "Jewish mafia" for computer scientists there (but this is just a very superficial impression from time wasting instagram).

  433. @Mr. Hack
    @Thorfinnsson


    Speaking as someone who speaks a foreign tongue fluently, I can confirm that it is a great secret code for disparaging others in public spaces.
     
    You're beginning to sound like one of those liberal politically correct cucktards. What's wrong with speaking critically of others in private or in public, as long as it's not overly mean spirited (especially in secret)? Remember the young kid who recently 'smirked' at the American Indian in public? Folks criticize each other here at this blog 24/7. Is it Swedish that you're fluent in?

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson

    Yes, I am fluent in Swedish.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @Thorfinnsson

    So, for the 'good of mankind' would you urge your fellow Swedish speakers in Sweden to divest themselves of the Swedish language and adopt German instead, to help form a 'Greater German World' within Europe'?

    Replies: @Denis

  434. @Thorfinnsson
    @Mr. Hack

    Yes, I am fluent in Swedish.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    So, for the ‘good of mankind’ would you urge your fellow Swedish speakers in Sweden to divest themselves of the Swedish language and adopt German instead, to help form a ‘Greater German World’ within Europe’?

    • Replies: @Denis
    @Mr. Hack

    The Swedish are doing a good job of replacing their culture, but it sure as heck isn't being replaced with German.

    Replies: @AP

  435. @for-the-record
    @Dmitry

    On average as total population, secularized Ashkenazi Jews probably had a higher capacity for studying

    That's one way of looking at it I guess. Here is another (referring to the situation in the mid-1920s):


    Some members of the prerevolutionary elite, in particular, resented the “antibourgeois” quotas in educational institutions and the subsequent rise of the Jewish immigrants as both prominent new Kulturträger and leading “proletarian” iconoclasts. The art historian A. Anisimov wrote to a colleague in Prague (in November 1923), “Out of 100 applicants to Moscow University, 78 are Jews; thus, if the Russian university is now in Prague, the Jewish one is in Moscow.” The father of a student about to be “purged” for alien origins wrote to a friend or relative in Serbia: “Pavel and his friends are awaiting their fate. But it’s clear that only the Jerusalem academics and the Communists, Party members generally, are going to stay.” And according to the wife of a Leningrad University professor, “in all the institutions, only workers and Israelites are admitted; the life of the intelligentsia is very hard.”

    Yuri Slezkine, The Jewish Century, pp. 243-244.
     

    Replies: @Dmitry

    In the USSR academic, Ashkenazi Jews seemed more overrepresented in narrow areas like theoretical physics and maths. This led to “antisemitic” scandals, because there too many Jewish mathematicians and physicists entering the top. So they allegedly used some kind of systems and pressure to limit the number of Jewish mathematicians.

    I’m not expert in physics. But you can see in USSR physics, for example, the most famous “course on theoretical physics”, has author names like “Landau and Lifshits”.

    In the USSR, Ashkenazi Jews were a population who seemed to produce more nerdy teenagers than normal people (who were, according to themselves, often bullied at school).

    I was watching a television documentary about Perelman. And apparently in his teenage years, he was angry that some other Jewish nerd was the better school mathematician in his city. So as a result, he studied more and became successful. This is reflection of a more nerdy culture of the era.

    Also in the USSR, Jews were overrepresented as classical music professionals, and perhaps to some extent even in unrelated areas like ballet,.

    This is not indicative of intelligence ( i.e. classical music performers are not known for their intelligence). It is indicative more of proportionally higher attention span or capacity for studying as teenagers. And outside of the highest achievement, it also resulted in more Jewish engineers, doctors, etc.

    But I’m not sure if there was so much Jewish overrepresentation in academic areas like archaeologists, anthropologists etc. Jewish nerdy children were clearly most successful, in more formal disciplines, which rewarded long hours of nerdy study as teenagers.

    Today, this is clearly all a receding past. There is no sense universities in Russia are flooded today with too many Jewish nerds.

    In Ukraine, there might still exist some traces of the descendants of Jewish nerds in the computer science graduates. I was looking at social media of a friend I know from Odessa last week, and it looked like half of his computer scientist friends in Kiev, had a photo from free Jewish heritage vacations to Israel on their social media. Actually I had some impression that there is a “Jewish mafia” for computer scientists there (but this is just a very superficial impression from time wasting instagram).

  436. @Mr. XYZ
    @German_reader

    Well, why don't you think people deserve a good life? I mean, even if people are going to be stuck in the Third World, one can argue that better-off countries have a duty to help out these unfortunates. It's similar to how some well-off Americans and Europeans believe in helping out those countrymen of theirs who are less fortunate--except on a global scale.

    Also, if immigration isn't going to reduce a country's average IQ or bring undesirable ideologies into a country, then a country's national power is going to be increased by immigration due to the fact that it is going to have more people--and of a comparable quality--than it would have had without immigration. This is why the US appears to have strongly benefited from immigration--at least until 1880 or so. I'm not sure if large-scale Italian immigration was good for the US, but large-scale Anglo-Saxon immigration was definitely good for the US. Large-scale Jewish immigration was also good for the US in the sense that it resulted in more technological progress in the US as well as in more social liberalism--which is a good thing in the sense that it advocates helping the common man--albeit with the undesirable effect of trying to censor all discussions about the genetics of IQ and especially genetic group differences in regards to important traits such as intelligence, criminality, corruption, et cetera.

    Replies: @Hyperborean, @Beckow, @Daniel.I

    …even if people are going to be stuck in the Third World, one can argue that better-off countries have a duty to help out these unfortunates.

    Why? Is it a religious duty? Who exactly is it good for? Unless, pretty much all Third Worlders are allowed to ‘better‘ themselves by departing for richer shores – and that’s unlikely – all you are doing is adding a burden for the advanced world, and facilitating money (and some brain) migration away from the poorest parts of the world. If the departing Third Worlders have no stake in their own societies, and all they do is plot how to leave, that makes their Third World even worse.

    • Replies: @DFH
    @Beckow

    Because of his strange Jewish neuroses

  437. @Beckow
    @Mr. XYZ


    ...even if people are going to be stuck in the Third World, one can argue that better-off countries have a duty to help out these unfortunates.
     
    Why? Is it a religious duty? Who exactly is it good for? Unless, pretty much all Third Worlders are allowed to 'better' themselves by departing for richer shores - and that's unlikely - all you are doing is adding a burden for the advanced world, and facilitating money (and some brain) migration away from the poorest parts of the world. If the departing Third Worlders have no stake in their own societies, and all they do is plot how to leave, that makes their Third World even worse.

    Replies: @DFH

    Because of his strange Jewish neuroses

  438. @AP
    @Mr. XYZ

    Anti-communism abroad and anti-socialism at home.

    Replies: @Dmitry, @Mr. XYZ

    “Anti-socialism” is very good and admirable. But I can’t see how you would ever emigrate from America to Ukraine, on that basis. It would always be the opposite.

    America is still the centre of capitalism and has a lot of legal protections for private property. And for private citizens, USA is even better than Western Europe in areas like inheritance tax law.* (Although, for businesses, the corporation tax in America is still higher than many EU states).

    But what can you say about Ukraine?

    Even if we judge it by “pro-capitalist” economic reforms and projects, which politicians are promoting to international investors there, like the privatization of Odessa Port Plant.

    It was supposed to be the first major privatization in Ukraine since the coup. And yet years later, the result is no international investors wanted to buy it because of lack of accounting transparency and sense there would be enough private property protection.


    *Western European countries like France and UK steal much of the money of people after they die. USA has something similar, but it only begins at around $11 million, so at least most ordinary Americans avoid this kind of open property-theft socialism.

    • Replies: @AP
    @Dmitry


    “Anti-socialism” is very good and admirable. But I can’t see how you would ever emigrate from America to Ukraine, on that basis. It would always be the opposit
     
    The thinking is, if America were to go full wildly left and anti European, than Ukraine could be a refuge. Although for me it would be Russia - my wife has a flat in central Moscow, I would easily get a poorly paid job at a hospital.

    At any rate, it's theoretical, America will certainly not collapse during my working years in the coming decades. But my kids time, doubtful but who knows?

    Replies: @Dmitry

  439. @AP
    @Mr. XYZ

    Anti-communism abroad and anti-socialism at home.

    Replies: @Dmitry, @Mr. XYZ

    The interesting fact, though, is that I’m not sure that the Democrats were particularly less anti-Communist than the Republicans were during the Cold War. JFK ran as a hawk in 1960 and it was Nixon who reached out to China and who implemented detente with the Soviet Union.

    Also, what exactly did Ukrainians in the US have against the social safety net?

    BTW, did Ukrainians in the US continue voting Republican even after the end of the Cold War?

    • Replies: @AP
    @Mr. XYZ


    The interesting fact, though, is that I’m not sure that the Democrats were particularly less anti-Communist than the Republicans were during the Cold War
     
    They were from the time of Carter onward. Before that, not particularly.

    Also, what exactly did Ukrainians in the US have against the social safety net?
     
    It smelled of socialism.

    BTW, did Ukrainians in the US continue voting Republican even after the end of the Cold War?
     
    For the most part, yes. Ukrainians are the "Cubans" of Eastern European-Americans.

    Replies: @Mr. XYZ

    , @Mr. Hack
    @Mr. XYZ

    Even throughout the cold war period, during the 60's & 70's, it was a mixed bag. A lot of Ukrainians held skilled factory jobs and were union workers. Some held union positions and heavily encouraged others to vote Democratic. My father, worked in such a machine shop as an A operator machinist. Although he paid his union dues and attended union meetings, he always voted Republican, a true blue 'Cuban of Eastern Europe' as AP has pointed out. In Chicago, to this day, most Ukrainians still vote Democratic. Nothing gets done in Chicago without union approval. It's a matter of making sure that your own bread gets buttered. But Chicagoans are an exception! :-)

    Replies: @Gerard2

  440. @Mr. Hack
    @Thorfinnsson

    So, for the 'good of mankind' would you urge your fellow Swedish speakers in Sweden to divest themselves of the Swedish language and adopt German instead, to help form a 'Greater German World' within Europe'?

    Replies: @Denis

    The Swedish are doing a good job of replacing their culture, but it sure as heck isn’t being replaced with German.

    • Replies: @AP
    @Denis

    Sweden's Minister of Culture 2014-2019:

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a4/Alice_Bah_Kuhnke_2014-12-17_001.jpg/220px-Alice_Bah_Kuhnke_2014-12-17_001.jpg

    Replies: @Denis

  441. @Epigon
    Dangers of Multiculturalism!

    https://i.imgur.com/ZK206Ep.png


    Schräge Musik at the end!

    Watching NBA and other sports events, when cameras switch to spectators, you can see exactly what Jung was writing about - even White Americans are very un-European in their behaviour and demeanour, on average.
    This is true even for high class Americans.

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh

    I’m reminded of Sailer’s(I believe?) construction of Trump as the First Black President.

  442. AP says:
    @Dmitry
    @AP

    "Anti-socialism" is very good and admirable. But I can't see how you would ever emigrate from America to Ukraine, on that basis. It would always be the opposite.

    America is still the centre of capitalism and has a lot of legal protections for private property. And for private citizens, USA is even better than Western Europe in areas like inheritance tax law.* (Although, for businesses, the corporation tax in America is still higher than many EU states).

    But what can you say about Ukraine?

    Even if we judge it by "pro-capitalist" economic reforms and projects, which politicians are promoting to international investors there, like the privatization of Odessa Port Plant.

    It was supposed to be the first major privatization in Ukraine since the coup. And yet years later, the result is no international investors wanted to buy it because of lack of accounting transparency and sense there would be enough private property protection.

    -
    *Western European countries like France and UK steal much of the money of people after they die. USA has something similar, but it only begins at around $11 million, so at least most ordinary Americans avoid this kind of open property-theft socialism.

    Replies: @AP

    “Anti-socialism” is very good and admirable. But I can’t see how you would ever emigrate from America to Ukraine, on that basis. It would always be the opposit

    The thinking is, if America were to go full wildly left and anti European, than Ukraine could be a refuge. Although for me it would be Russia – my wife has a flat in central Moscow, I would easily get a poorly paid job at a hospital.

    At any rate, it’s theoretical, America will certainly not collapse during my working years in the coming decades. But my kids time, doubtful but who knows?

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @AP

    It's true Ukraine could be quite economically developed by about 2040 or 2050, if it can stabilize now.

    Assume they might join the EU around 2030. And then assimilate to a lot of German style laws and regulations.

    If it reaches something like Czech Republic level in the 2040s, it would not be so crazy to want to move there, or at least parts like Odessa.

    Replies: @Gerard2

  443. AP says:
    @Mr. XYZ
    @AP

    The interesting fact, though, is that I'm not sure that the Democrats were particularly less anti-Communist than the Republicans were during the Cold War. JFK ran as a hawk in 1960 and it was Nixon who reached out to China and who implemented detente with the Soviet Union.

    Also, what exactly did Ukrainians in the US have against the social safety net?

    BTW, did Ukrainians in the US continue voting Republican even after the end of the Cold War?

    Replies: @AP, @Mr. Hack

    The interesting fact, though, is that I’m not sure that the Democrats were particularly less anti-Communist than the Republicans were during the Cold War

    They were from the time of Carter onward. Before that, not particularly.

    Also, what exactly did Ukrainians in the US have against the social safety net?

    It smelled of socialism.

    BTW, did Ukrainians in the US continue voting Republican even after the end of the Cold War?

    For the most part, yes. Ukrainians are the “Cubans” of Eastern European-Americans.

    • Replies: @Mr. XYZ
    @AP


    They were from the time of Carter onward. Before that, not particularly.
     
    Wasn't it Carter who began arming the Afghan Mujahideen, though? Also, Bush Sr. was the one who gave the Chicken Kiev speech.

    It smelled of socialism.
     
    It seems terrible to equate the social safety net with the Soviet Union, though. I mean, look at Lyndon Johnson--he fought the Commies in Vietnam while at the same time created a more secure social safety net at home with Medicare, Medicaid, and the War on Poverty.

    For the most part, yes. Ukrainians are the “Cubans” of Eastern European-Americans.
     
    Don't younger Cubans largely vote Democratic nowadays, though?
  444. @Denis
    @Mr. Hack

    The Swedish are doing a good job of replacing their culture, but it sure as heck isn't being replaced with German.

    Replies: @AP

    Sweden’s Minister of Culture 2014-2019:

    • Replies: @Denis
    @AP

    One of the most beautiful nations in Europe, and it's being made completely unrecognizable in the name of diversity and tolerance. What a joke.

    Replies: @melanf

  445. @Thorfinnsson
    @Mr. Hack

    Speaking as someone who speaks a foreign tongue fluently, I can confirm that it is a great secret code for disparaging others in public spaces.

    One of the best things about living in a rural area is precisely the lack of diversity.

    I do like big cities, but unfortunately thanks to the never ending hell of immigration one is never at home in these cities.

    And even here in a rural area one suffers from this on the telephone. It's particularly bad in Canada, no doubt due to their high rate of immigration. Half the time when talking to Canadian businesses one ends up dealing with someone who has some gibberish non-European name and speaks broken, accented English.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @AP

    Speaking as someone who speaks a foreign tongue fluently, I can confirm that it is a great secret code for disparaging others in public spaces.

    Indeed. Or not even for disparaging others. I’ve taken for granted that all public conversations are still private within my non-English-speaking family.

  446. @Mr. XYZ
    @AP

    The interesting fact, though, is that I'm not sure that the Democrats were particularly less anti-Communist than the Republicans were during the Cold War. JFK ran as a hawk in 1960 and it was Nixon who reached out to China and who implemented detente with the Soviet Union.

    Also, what exactly did Ukrainians in the US have against the social safety net?

    BTW, did Ukrainians in the US continue voting Republican even after the end of the Cold War?

    Replies: @AP, @Mr. Hack

    Even throughout the cold war period, during the 60’s & 70’s, it was a mixed bag. A lot of Ukrainians held skilled factory jobs and were union workers. Some held union positions and heavily encouraged others to vote Democratic. My father, worked in such a machine shop as an A operator machinist. Although he paid his union dues and attended union meetings, he always voted Republican, a true blue ‘Cuban of Eastern Europe’ as AP has pointed out. In Chicago, to this day, most Ukrainians still vote Democratic. Nothing gets done in Chicago without union approval. It’s a matter of making sure that your own bread gets buttered. But Chicagoans are an exception! 🙂

    • Replies: @Gerard2
    @Mr. Hack


    a true blue ‘Cuban of Eastern Europe’ as AP has pointed out.
     
    No such thing you dimwit. What happened was this fantasist maggot AP making up some braindead fantasist BS about "My people ( WTF?) blabla always voted Republican" ,even though since the time Banderatards came over to the US from after the war, there was nothing defining Democrats or Republicans as more anti-communist than the other, the Republicans weren't particularly more socially-conservative/religious than the Democrats ( which this retard is probably trying to imply is convergant with Banderatard pseudo-beliefs)..and geographical blue/red areas were totally different to now ....other commentators unwittingly called this POS out for it...and the retard responded with more BS on top of the original lie to try and consolidate his cretinous claim.


    Over the last century you have had in America powerful White Russian lobby( probably what you morons try and misappropriate as a "Ukrainian" lobby), Italian lobby, Hungarian lobby from end/beginning or 19-20th century, Hungarian lobby from after 1956, Irish lobby (of course), jewish lobby, jewish lobby(anti-Russian) from pogroms, jewish lobby(anti-Russian ) from 1970's 80's USSR policy, Cuban lobby, pre-1941 German lobby, polish lobbies ( of various time periods) and many other ones.

    ................what you sure as fuck don't have and have NEVER, EVER had is a "Ukrainian " lobby you twat.
    This is of course natural because no politician can campaign for support/donations in domestic and foreign policies to a group of obscure, outcast, failure people whose "claim to fame" is being smuggled out by the CIA from Germany in secret, being the worst white ethnic group in terms of achievement and money in the country...and general obscure shitheads.

    For those other ethnic groups I mentioned in the list....it's quite obviously easy to try and openly campaign for their votes- like critising Castro for Cuban-immigrant vote . This is quite obviously not for "Ukrainians"....it's why to this day Kiev is viewed correctly as a Russian city , in America nobody can locate where one of the biggest countries in Europe is on a map over there in Pindostan, and why nearly every Hollywood film about a Russia gives him a "Ukrainian" name. Also it's why from the 1990's, there hasn't been a single big Banderatard come into existence in the US from the post-soviet collapse and emigration of highly qualified people

    Do you even know who Jaresko and the Dr Death CIA Hippy Nazi bitch "Health" Minister of ukropia, Suprun voted for in the US ( two of the most high profile US-Nazi Banderatards who came back to f**K up Ukropia even more)? Of course not you idiot........though if there was an ACTUAL lobby in America, and you idiots were ACTUAL supporters of this fake state then you would know who this type of high profile Badneratard are and were on the Democrat/GOP line they stand

    Utter nonsense

    Replies: @Mikhail

  447. @AP
    @Dmitry


    “Anti-socialism” is very good and admirable. But I can’t see how you would ever emigrate from America to Ukraine, on that basis. It would always be the opposit
     
    The thinking is, if America were to go full wildly left and anti European, than Ukraine could be a refuge. Although for me it would be Russia - my wife has a flat in central Moscow, I would easily get a poorly paid job at a hospital.

    At any rate, it's theoretical, America will certainly not collapse during my working years in the coming decades. But my kids time, doubtful but who knows?

    Replies: @Dmitry

    It’s true Ukraine could be quite economically developed by about 2040 or 2050, if it can stabilize now.

    Assume they might join the EU around 2030. And then assimilate to a lot of German style laws and regulations.

    If it reaches something like Czech Republic level in the 2040s, it would not be so crazy to want to move there, or at least parts like Odessa.

    • Replies: @Gerard2
    @Dmitry

    To do this , not only would there have to be full trade links restored with Russia...but the likes of Bulgaria, Poland, Romania would have to become ultra--wealthy, high-tech , prosperous countries....with Ukraine providing the role to them in goods and services......, that they now provide to the main/wealthiest countries like UK,France, Germany, Holland , Italy, Scandinavian etcet,
    I simply can't see this happening.

    Gruzia is way ahead of Ukraine in organisation & technocrats. Turkey and Azerbaijan are relatively wealthy countries for Gruzia to have good trade relations with...but without full economic & political relations with Russia it's infrastructure and it's GDP are pitiful ( and that is despite excellent levels of FDI in a small country)
    That is why even as far as 2030-2040 in the future...I can't see any way out of the nightmare that Ukropia is in now....and if Gruzia is nowhere near joining the EU now... I can't see when they can join.

    Except if you're Israel ,good relations with powerful; &/or wealthy neighbors are essential in order to be succesful....and that is before we even get into the unrelenting freakshow and mess of Ukraine.

    Replies: @Dmitry

  448. @Dmitry
    @AP

    It's true Ukraine could be quite economically developed by about 2040 or 2050, if it can stabilize now.

    Assume they might join the EU around 2030. And then assimilate to a lot of German style laws and regulations.

    If it reaches something like Czech Republic level in the 2040s, it would not be so crazy to want to move there, or at least parts like Odessa.

    Replies: @Gerard2

    To do this , not only would there have to be full trade links restored with Russia…but the likes of Bulgaria, Poland, Romania would have to become ultra–wealthy, high-tech , prosperous countries….with Ukraine providing the role to them in goods and services……, that they now provide to the main/wealthiest countries like UK,France, Germany, Holland , Italy, Scandinavian etcet,
    I simply can’t see this happening.

    Gruzia is way ahead of Ukraine in organisation & technocrats. Turkey and Azerbaijan are relatively wealthy countries for Gruzia to have good trade relations with…but without full economic & political relations with Russia it’s infrastructure and it’s GDP are pitiful ( and that is despite excellent levels of FDI in a small country)
    That is why even as far as 2030-2040 in the future…I can’t see any way out of the nightmare that Ukropia is in now….and if Gruzia is nowhere near joining the EU now… I can’t see when they can join.

    Except if you’re Israel ,good relations with powerful; &/or wealthy neighbors are essential in order to be succesful….and that is before we even get into the unrelenting freakshow and mess of Ukraine.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @Gerard2

    Lol are you sure? It may be even more chaotic than Ukraine.

    I know people talk about how they like Tbilisi, because it's completely disorganized and you see many crazy and comic events every day living there.

    But despite being an idiocracy, Georgia has still been developing for the last few years.

    Combining their falling population and 5% GDP growth, it is not impossible Georgia could almost reach "developed economy" status in the 2030s or 2040s.

  449. @AP
    @Denis

    Sweden's Minister of Culture 2014-2019:

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a4/Alice_Bah_Kuhnke_2014-12-17_001.jpg/220px-Alice_Bah_Kuhnke_2014-12-17_001.jpg

    Replies: @Denis

    One of the most beautiful nations in Europe, and it’s being made completely unrecognizable in the name of diversity and tolerance. What a joke.

    • Replies: @melanf
    @Denis


    One of the most beautiful nations in Europe
     
    Well of course the Sweden’s Minister of Culture has a non-Swedish appearance, but it looks (judging by the photo) more attractive than the average Swedish woman of that age.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @reiner Tor, @DFH, @Denis

  450. @Mr. Hack
    @Mr. XYZ

    Even throughout the cold war period, during the 60's & 70's, it was a mixed bag. A lot of Ukrainians held skilled factory jobs and were union workers. Some held union positions and heavily encouraged others to vote Democratic. My father, worked in such a machine shop as an A operator machinist. Although he paid his union dues and attended union meetings, he always voted Republican, a true blue 'Cuban of Eastern Europe' as AP has pointed out. In Chicago, to this day, most Ukrainians still vote Democratic. Nothing gets done in Chicago without union approval. It's a matter of making sure that your own bread gets buttered. But Chicagoans are an exception! :-)

    Replies: @Gerard2

    a true blue ‘Cuban of Eastern Europe’ as AP has pointed out.

    No such thing you dimwit. What happened was this fantasist maggot AP making up some braindead fantasist BS about “My people ( WTF?) blabla always voted Republican” ,even though since the time Banderatards came over to the US from after the war, there was nothing defining Democrats or Republicans as more anti-communist than the other, the Republicans weren’t particularly more socially-conservative/religious than the Democrats ( which this retard is probably trying to imply is convergant with Banderatard pseudo-beliefs)..and geographical blue/red areas were totally different to now ….other commentators unwittingly called this POS out for it…and the retard responded with more BS on top of the original lie to try and consolidate his cretinous claim.

    Over the last century you have had in America powerful White Russian lobby( probably what you morons try and misappropriate as a “Ukrainian” lobby), Italian lobby, Hungarian lobby from end/beginning or 19-20th century, Hungarian lobby from after 1956, Irish lobby (of course), jewish lobby, jewish lobby(anti-Russian) from pogroms, jewish lobby(anti-Russian ) from 1970’s 80’s USSR policy, Cuban lobby, pre-1941 German lobby, polish lobbies ( of various time periods) and many other ones.

    …………….what you sure as fuck don’t have and have NEVER, EVER had is a “Ukrainian ” lobby you twat.
    This is of course natural because no politician can campaign for support/donations in domestic and foreign policies to a group of obscure, outcast, failure people whose “claim to fame” is being smuggled out by the CIA from Germany in secret, being the worst white ethnic group in terms of achievement and money in the country…and general obscure shitheads.

    For those other ethnic groups I mentioned in the list….it’s quite obviously easy to try and openly campaign for their votes- like critising Castro for Cuban-immigrant vote . This is quite obviously not for “Ukrainians”….it’s why to this day Kiev is viewed correctly as a Russian city , in America nobody can locate where one of the biggest countries in Europe is on a map over there in Pindostan, and why nearly every Hollywood film about a Russia gives him a “Ukrainian” name. Also it’s why from the 1990’s, there hasn’t been a single big Banderatard come into existence in the US from the post-soviet collapse and emigration of highly qualified people

    Do you even know who Jaresko and the Dr Death CIA Hippy Nazi bitch “Health” Minister of ukropia, Suprun voted for in the US ( two of the most high profile US-Nazi Banderatards who came back to f**K up Ukropia even more)? Of course not you idiot……..though if there was an ACTUAL lobby in America, and you idiots were ACTUAL supporters of this fake state then you would know who this type of high profile Badneratard are and were on the Democrat/GOP line they stand

    Utter nonsense

    • Replies: @Mikhail
    @Gerard2


    Over the last century you have had in America powerful White Russian lobby( probably what you morons try and misappropriate as a “Ukrainian” lobby),
     
    Sorry to say that White Russian lobby doesn't have much if any influence. A sampling:

    http://web.archive.org/web/20050205051751/http://russian-americans.org/CRA_Art_Captive.htm
  451. Former U.S. President Dwight D. Eisenhower unveiling the statue of Taras Shecxhnko in Wasshington DC

  452. @Denis
    @AP

    One of the most beautiful nations in Europe, and it's being made completely unrecognizable in the name of diversity and tolerance. What a joke.

    Replies: @melanf

    One of the most beautiful nations in Europe

    Well of course the Sweden’s Minister of Culture has a non-Swedish appearance, but it looks (judging by the photo) more attractive than the average Swedish woman of that age.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @melanf

    I don't know about that, but she's certainly not unattractive and looks rather athletic - I think that we need Thorfinnsson to help straighten this one out?

    Replies: @melanf

    , @reiner Tor
    @melanf


    the average Swedish woman of that age.
     
    Which age? I don't know how Swedish women of each specific age group look like anyway, I'm just curious.

    Replies: @melanf

    , @DFH
    @melanf

    She's ugly

    https://imengine.hall.infomaker.io/imengine/image.php?uuid=2c8ab07d-5f58-4f8b-9846-8f86afab8ab2&type=preview&source=false&function=hardcrop&width=1200&height=800&q=80

    I wish that strange Jew who used to give his opinions on whether he would bang women or not was still around, he would sort this all out.

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson

    , @Denis
    @melanf

    I wasn't talking about the culture minister's looks, and I'm sure their are plenty of immigrant women in Sweden who are attractive. I was thinking more about the fact that Sweden isn't really Swedish anymore.

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson

  453. @melanf
    @Denis


    One of the most beautiful nations in Europe
     
    Well of course the Sweden’s Minister of Culture has a non-Swedish appearance, but it looks (judging by the photo) more attractive than the average Swedish woman of that age.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @reiner Tor, @DFH, @Denis

    I don’t know about that, but she’s certainly not unattractive and looks rather athletic – I think that we need Thorfinnsson to help straighten this one out?

    • Replies: @melanf
    @Mr. Hack


    looks rather athletic
     
    Athletic woman is better than fat

    Replies: @Mikhail

  454. @Mr. Hack
    @melanf

    I don't know about that, but she's certainly not unattractive and looks rather athletic - I think that we need Thorfinnsson to help straighten this one out?

    Replies: @melanf

    looks rather athletic

    Athletic woman is better than fat

    • Replies: @Mikhail
    @melanf

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RN_VwMb8m2M

  455. @melanf
    @Denis


    One of the most beautiful nations in Europe
     
    Well of course the Sweden’s Minister of Culture has a non-Swedish appearance, but it looks (judging by the photo) more attractive than the average Swedish woman of that age.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @reiner Tor, @DFH, @Denis

    the average Swedish woman of that age.

    Which age? I don’t know how Swedish women of each specific age group look like anyway, I’m just curious.

    • Replies: @melanf
    @reiner Tor


    I don’t know how Swedish women of each specific age group look like anyway, I’m just curious.
     
    Roughly such as I think (perhaps inhabitants Sweden correct me ).
    https://d.radikal.ru/d40/1903/8b/8ebabbbad025.jpg

    In General, beauty is only a small percentage of women in any country in the world, even among young girls (for Sweden this is also true - having visited Sweden, it is easy to make sure that the average Swedish girl is very different from the average Swedish actress/model ). And women after 40 on average are less attractive than in 17 years.

    Replies: @Dmitry

  456. @Gerard2
    @Mr. Hack


    a true blue ‘Cuban of Eastern Europe’ as AP has pointed out.
     
    No such thing you dimwit. What happened was this fantasist maggot AP making up some braindead fantasist BS about "My people ( WTF?) blabla always voted Republican" ,even though since the time Banderatards came over to the US from after the war, there was nothing defining Democrats or Republicans as more anti-communist than the other, the Republicans weren't particularly more socially-conservative/religious than the Democrats ( which this retard is probably trying to imply is convergant with Banderatard pseudo-beliefs)..and geographical blue/red areas were totally different to now ....other commentators unwittingly called this POS out for it...and the retard responded with more BS on top of the original lie to try and consolidate his cretinous claim.


    Over the last century you have had in America powerful White Russian lobby( probably what you morons try and misappropriate as a "Ukrainian" lobby), Italian lobby, Hungarian lobby from end/beginning or 19-20th century, Hungarian lobby from after 1956, Irish lobby (of course), jewish lobby, jewish lobby(anti-Russian) from pogroms, jewish lobby(anti-Russian ) from 1970's 80's USSR policy, Cuban lobby, pre-1941 German lobby, polish lobbies ( of various time periods) and many other ones.

    ................what you sure as fuck don't have and have NEVER, EVER had is a "Ukrainian " lobby you twat.
    This is of course natural because no politician can campaign for support/donations in domestic and foreign policies to a group of obscure, outcast, failure people whose "claim to fame" is being smuggled out by the CIA from Germany in secret, being the worst white ethnic group in terms of achievement and money in the country...and general obscure shitheads.

    For those other ethnic groups I mentioned in the list....it's quite obviously easy to try and openly campaign for their votes- like critising Castro for Cuban-immigrant vote . This is quite obviously not for "Ukrainians"....it's why to this day Kiev is viewed correctly as a Russian city , in America nobody can locate where one of the biggest countries in Europe is on a map over there in Pindostan, and why nearly every Hollywood film about a Russia gives him a "Ukrainian" name. Also it's why from the 1990's, there hasn't been a single big Banderatard come into existence in the US from the post-soviet collapse and emigration of highly qualified people

    Do you even know who Jaresko and the Dr Death CIA Hippy Nazi bitch "Health" Minister of ukropia, Suprun voted for in the US ( two of the most high profile US-Nazi Banderatards who came back to f**K up Ukropia even more)? Of course not you idiot........though if there was an ACTUAL lobby in America, and you idiots were ACTUAL supporters of this fake state then you would know who this type of high profile Badneratard are and were on the Democrat/GOP line they stand

    Utter nonsense

    Replies: @Mikhail

    Over the last century you have had in America powerful White Russian lobby( probably what you morons try and misappropriate as a “Ukrainian” lobby),

    Sorry to say that White Russian lobby doesn’t have much if any influence. A sampling:

    http://web.archive.org/web/20050205051751/http://russian-americans.org/CRA_Art_Captive.htm

  457. @melanf
    @Mr. Hack


    looks rather athletic
     
    Athletic woman is better than fat

    Replies: @Mikhail

  458. @Mr. XYZ
    @German_reader

    Well, why don't you think people deserve a good life? I mean, even if people are going to be stuck in the Third World, one can argue that better-off countries have a duty to help out these unfortunates. It's similar to how some well-off Americans and Europeans believe in helping out those countrymen of theirs who are less fortunate--except on a global scale.

    Also, if immigration isn't going to reduce a country's average IQ or bring undesirable ideologies into a country, then a country's national power is going to be increased by immigration due to the fact that it is going to have more people--and of a comparable quality--than it would have had without immigration. This is why the US appears to have strongly benefited from immigration--at least until 1880 or so. I'm not sure if large-scale Italian immigration was good for the US, but large-scale Anglo-Saxon immigration was definitely good for the US. Large-scale Jewish immigration was also good for the US in the sense that it resulted in more technological progress in the US as well as in more social liberalism--which is a good thing in the sense that it advocates helping the common man--albeit with the undesirable effect of trying to censor all discussions about the genetics of IQ and especially genetic group differences in regards to important traits such as intelligence, criminality, corruption, et cetera.

    Replies: @Hyperborean, @Beckow, @Daniel.I

    Large-scale Jewish immigration was also good for the US

    One curious pattern of history is that as soon as the kikes reach critical mass, they set in motion a chain of events that leads to themselves stuck in ovens.

    You’d have to be blind not to realize that we’re literally dealing with the synagogue of Satan here.

  459. @reiner Tor
    @melanf


    the average Swedish woman of that age.
     
    Which age? I don't know how Swedish women of each specific age group look like anyway, I'm just curious.

    Replies: @melanf

    I don’t know how Swedish women of each specific age group look like anyway, I’m just curious.

    Roughly such as I think (perhaps inhabitants Sweden correct me ).
    In General, beauty is only a small percentage of women in any country in the world, even among young girls (for Sweden this is also true – having visited Sweden, it is easy to make sure that the average Swedish girl is very different from the average Swedish actress/model ). And women after 40 on average are less attractive than in 17 years.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @melanf

    I haven't been to Sweden.

    But it's surprising your post - I would have guessed Swedish women would age more attractively than most countries, considering overall conditions of Sweden: a country with low obesity, healthy diet, low sun exposure, high income and low pollution.


    And women after 40 on average are less attractive than in 17 years.
     
    Or often, sadly, only after 30.

    Replies: @melanf

  460. Algeria seems to have its own version of the Arab Spring right now. I wonder that’ll affect the flood of immigrants to Europe. Or Algerian imports of Russian weapons. Anything else interesting about it?

    Plus, it’ll apparently lead to some kind of Egyptian solution, with the army being the new kingpin, same as the old kingpin before the now old president (in the case of Egypt formerly himself a general; in Algeria succeeded a long-serving president who had been a general) got too much entrenched.

    • Replies: @DFH
    @reiner Tor

    They really haven't been very violent so far and it doesn't seem like the sort of issue that these people are going to die over. They look to me like the sort of people at the Gezi Park protests, not like they're going to start a civil war.

    , @Daniel Chieh
    @reiner Tor

    The only part I have have to contribute is that I personally found a lot of Algerians to be rather European in appearance, due to French ancestry. A girl I knew there had pale skin and green eyes.

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @Denis, @songbird

  461. @melanf
    @Denis


    One of the most beautiful nations in Europe
     
    Well of course the Sweden’s Minister of Culture has a non-Swedish appearance, but it looks (judging by the photo) more attractive than the average Swedish woman of that age.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @reiner Tor, @DFH, @Denis

    She’s ugly

    https://imengine.hall.infomaker.io/imengine/image.php?uuid=2c8ab07d-5f58-4f8b-9846-8f86afab8ab2&type=preview&source=false&function=hardcrop&width=1200&height=800&q=80

    I wish that strange Jew who used to give his opinions on whether he would bang women or not was still around, he would sort this all out.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    @DFH

    She doesn't look bad for being in her 40s, though that photo is not very flattering. Appears she has drawn on eyebrows which is always a turn off.

    You're thinking of Greasy William.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

  462. @DFH
    @melanf

    She's ugly

    https://imengine.hall.infomaker.io/imengine/image.php?uuid=2c8ab07d-5f58-4f8b-9846-8f86afab8ab2&type=preview&source=false&function=hardcrop&width=1200&height=800&q=80

    I wish that strange Jew who used to give his opinions on whether he would bang women or not was still around, he would sort this all out.

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson

    She doesn’t look bad for being in her 40s, though that photo is not very flattering. Appears she has drawn on eyebrows which is always a turn off.

    You’re thinking of Greasy William.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @Thorfinnsson

    I think that she's behind you on that 'Greater Germany' thingee...(a sleeper agent from Deep State) :-)

  463. ‘We were just *checks notes* burning racism, kaffir’

  464. @reiner Tor
    Algeria seems to have its own version of the Arab Spring right now. I wonder that'll affect the flood of immigrants to Europe. Or Algerian imports of Russian weapons. Anything else interesting about it?

    Plus, it'll apparently lead to some kind of Egyptian solution, with the army being the new kingpin, same as the old kingpin before the now old president (in the case of Egypt formerly himself a general; in Algeria succeeded a long-serving president who had been a general) got too much entrenched.

    Replies: @DFH, @Daniel Chieh

    They really haven’t been very violent so far and it doesn’t seem like the sort of issue that these people are going to die over. They look to me like the sort of people at the Gezi Park protests, not like they’re going to start a civil war.

  465. @Thorfinnsson
    @DFH

    She doesn't look bad for being in her 40s, though that photo is not very flattering. Appears she has drawn on eyebrows which is always a turn off.

    You're thinking of Greasy William.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    I think that she’s behind you on that ‘Greater Germany’ thingee…(a sleeper agent from Deep State) 🙂

  466. @LatW
    @Konstantin

    Ofc, they didn't. Be careful, dear, people here read anthropology occasionally. If you meant the Wends, nobody knows who they were, could've been a coastal Finnic people, nobody's seen them and they don't count. If you meant the Ruyan, then yes great people but closer to Polish or even ancient Prussian than Russian. And they lived in Prussia or Germany.

    Russians other than Old Believers who are very different from modern Russians and who were perfectly integrated already during the 1930's don't have deep roots in the Baltics. They are very recent arrivals, some as recent as the late 1980s, 90s and later. Most graves are very recent, too.

    Replies: @Gerard2, @Konstantin, @Konstantin

    But politically Baltic states are among the oldest guberniyas of Russian Empire and if not for terror campaigns in 1905 – 1907 and in 1917 – 1920 resulting in the creation of Baltic States, these territories would saw a massive influx of Russians much earlier. One could say that Baltic people paid for their independence in blood, but this argument goes both ways.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @Konstantin


    Baltic states are among the oldest guberniyas of Russian Empire
     
    They hadn't been under Russian rule before the Great Northern War, which is to say, roughly three centuries ago.
  467. @LatW
    @Konstantin

    Ofc, they didn't. Be careful, dear, people here read anthropology occasionally. If you meant the Wends, nobody knows who they were, could've been a coastal Finnic people, nobody's seen them and they don't count. If you meant the Ruyan, then yes great people but closer to Polish or even ancient Prussian than Russian. And they lived in Prussia or Germany.

    Russians other than Old Believers who are very different from modern Russians and who were perfectly integrated already during the 1930's don't have deep roots in the Baltics. They are very recent arrivals, some as recent as the late 1980s, 90s and later. Most graves are very recent, too.

    Replies: @Gerard2, @Konstantin, @Konstantin

    This “alien” status nonsense and restriction of political rights of Russians surely won’t go unanswered. “Russians always come for their money” (c) Bismark.

    The most obvious and rather mild solution is to have Latvians experience exactly same apartheid for the same number of years (currently 28 years).

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @Konstantin

    Arguing for a settler population which could easily get citizenship if only it learned the language surely won't generate much sympathy for Russians.

    The only argument that could be had here is that Russians have it worse than nonwhite immigrant populations in Western Europe. But at least in these corners we don't have much sympathy for those immigrants either.

    , @LatW
    @Konstantin

    UA, BY + 3B = big bite.

    Kishka nepotyanet.

  468. @reiner Tor
    Algeria seems to have its own version of the Arab Spring right now. I wonder that'll affect the flood of immigrants to Europe. Or Algerian imports of Russian weapons. Anything else interesting about it?

    Plus, it'll apparently lead to some kind of Egyptian solution, with the army being the new kingpin, same as the old kingpin before the now old president (in the case of Egypt formerly himself a general; in Algeria succeeded a long-serving president who had been a general) got too much entrenched.

    Replies: @DFH, @Daniel Chieh

    The only part I have have to contribute is that I personally found a lot of Algerians to be rather European in appearance, due to French ancestry. A girl I knew there had pale skin and green eyes.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @Daniel Chieh


    due to French ancestry
     
    Or due to Berber ancestry. Berbers are the original inhabitants of the Maghreb, and they are genetically closer to Europeans than any other population with pre-1492 roots outside of Europe.

    Replies: @melanf

    , @Denis
    @Daniel Chieh

    Maghrebis in general are a rather attractive people.

    Replies: @DFH

    , @songbird
    @Daniel Chieh

    Interesting fact: the Algerian separatists selected the most European-looking women to plant the bombs that often targeted French women and children.

    I think there's been a lot of geneflow between Europe and North Africa before the French invaded North Africa, probably since at least neolithic times, or even before. Of course, there was a great traffic in female slaves from Europe. They often were bought to become wives, and so had many children. In old novels, the Tuareg were often said to be light-eyed. Probably not typical, but at least a sometimes thing. There are also black Berbers, from African slaves - they are considered lower caste.

  469. @Daniel Chieh
    @reiner Tor

    The only part I have have to contribute is that I personally found a lot of Algerians to be rather European in appearance, due to French ancestry. A girl I knew there had pale skin and green eyes.

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @Denis, @songbird

    due to French ancestry

    Or due to Berber ancestry. Berbers are the original inhabitants of the Maghreb, and they are genetically closer to Europeans than any other population with pre-1492 roots outside of Europe.

    • Replies: @melanf
    @reiner Tor


    Or due to Berber ancestry. Berbers are the original inhabitants of the Maghreb, and they are genetically closer to Europeans than any other population with pre-1492 roots outside of Europe.
     
    As far as I know the Berbers is an example of the independent occurrence of light hair and eyes as a result of mutation spread in the population . Such mutation in history happened
    many times - for example, some tribes of Siberia have blond hair and light eyes

    https://media.nazaccent.ru/files/27/58/2758079a10ecbad755f622901c230b8c.jpg

    https://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/6702/287731.2c/0_bc663_fb69ae36_XL.jpeg.jpg

    Replies: @AP, @Philip Owen

  470. @Konstantin
    @LatW

    But politically Baltic states are among the oldest guberniyas of Russian Empire and if not for terror campaigns in 1905 - 1907 and in 1917 - 1920 resulting in the creation of Baltic States, these territories would saw a massive influx of Russians much earlier. One could say that Baltic people paid for their independence in blood, but this argument goes both ways.

    Replies: @reiner Tor

    Baltic states are among the oldest guberniyas of Russian Empire

    They hadn’t been under Russian rule before the Great Northern War, which is to say, roughly three centuries ago.

  471. @Konstantin
    @LatW

    This "alien" status nonsense and restriction of political rights of Russians surely won't go unanswered. "Russians always come for their money" (c) Bismark.

    The most obvious and rather mild solution is to have Latvians experience exactly same apartheid for the same number of years (currently 28 years).

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @LatW

    Arguing for a settler population which could easily get citizenship if only it learned the language surely won’t generate much sympathy for Russians.

    The only argument that could be had here is that Russians have it worse than nonwhite immigrant populations in Western Europe. But at least in these corners we don’t have much sympathy for those immigrants either.

  472. @Konstantin
    @LatW

    This "alien" status nonsense and restriction of political rights of Russians surely won't go unanswered. "Russians always come for their money" (c) Bismark.

    The most obvious and rather mild solution is to have Latvians experience exactly same apartheid for the same number of years (currently 28 years).

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @LatW

    UA, BY + 3B = big bite.

    Kishka nepotyanet.

  473. @melanf
    @Denis


    One of the most beautiful nations in Europe
     
    Well of course the Sweden’s Minister of Culture has a non-Swedish appearance, but it looks (judging by the photo) more attractive than the average Swedish woman of that age.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @reiner Tor, @DFH, @Denis

    I wasn’t talking about the culture minister’s looks, and I’m sure their are plenty of immigrant women in Sweden who are attractive. I was thinking more about the fact that Sweden isn’t really Swedish anymore.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    @Denis

    The former minister aside (who is half-Swedish as her coal burning mother is Swedish), the good news about Sweden's vibrants is that they are exceptionally poorly integrated. Thus they have much less prominence than vibrants do in most other European countries.

    Replies: @DFH

  474. @Daniel Chieh
    @reiner Tor

    The only part I have have to contribute is that I personally found a lot of Algerians to be rather European in appearance, due to French ancestry. A girl I knew there had pale skin and green eyes.

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @Denis, @songbird

    Maghrebis in general are a rather attractive people.

    • Disagree: RadicalCenter
    • Replies: @DFH
    @Denis

    Not really, they often have the strange lopsided, off, look that Orthodox Jews do, probably something to do with cousin marriage.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @Denis

  475. @Denis
    @melanf

    I wasn't talking about the culture minister's looks, and I'm sure their are plenty of immigrant women in Sweden who are attractive. I was thinking more about the fact that Sweden isn't really Swedish anymore.

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson

    The former minister aside (who is half-Swedish as her coal burning mother is Swedish), the good news about Sweden’s vibrants is that they are exceptionally poorly integrated. Thus they have much less prominence than vibrants do in most other European countries.

    • Replies: @DFH
    @Thorfinnsson

    They make up for it by the fact their current culture minister pretends to be black

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0f/Amanda_Lind_2018.jpeg/1280px-Amanda_Lind_2018.jpeg

  476. @reiner Tor
    @Daniel Chieh


    due to French ancestry
     
    Or due to Berber ancestry. Berbers are the original inhabitants of the Maghreb, and they are genetically closer to Europeans than any other population with pre-1492 roots outside of Europe.

    Replies: @melanf

    Or due to Berber ancestry. Berbers are the original inhabitants of the Maghreb, and they are genetically closer to Europeans than any other population with pre-1492 roots outside of Europe.

    As far as I know the Berbers is an example of the independent occurrence of light hair and eyes as a result of mutation spread in the population . Such mutation in history happened
    many times – for example, some tribes of Siberia have blond hair and light eyes

    • Replies: @AP
    @melanf

    That's not because of an independent mutation; Indo-Europeans had once lived in central Asia and these genes have spread around.

    Replies: @melanf

    , @Philip Owen
    @melanf

    Linguists claim to have found connections between Welsh and Berber. This could be the influence of the Atlantic trading network now supposed to be the origin of Celtic language or of population movement. I don't know of any genetic studies.

  477. @Denis
    @Daniel Chieh

    Maghrebis in general are a rather attractive people.

    Replies: @DFH

    Not really, they often have the strange lopsided, off, look that Orthodox Jews do, probably something to do with cousin marriage.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @DFH

    'Lopsided look'? The young girl, at least in the bottom photo. has a very pretty symmetrical face structure. Her eyes have that slight exotic Asian look, but are quite large, the hazel type color matches her hair color to a tee.

    Replies: @Denis, @DFH

    , @Denis
    @DFH

    Lol, what are you talking about? Maghrebis and Orthodox Jews look nothing alike, unless the Jews in question happen to be Sephardim who joined the Orthodox. Most Orthodox are Ashkenazim.

    Replies: @AP, @DFH

  478. @DFH
    @Denis

    Not really, they often have the strange lopsided, off, look that Orthodox Jews do, probably something to do with cousin marriage.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @Denis

    ‘Lopsided look’? The young girl, at least in the bottom photo. has a very pretty symmetrical face structure. Her eyes have that slight exotic Asian look, but are quite large, the hazel type color matches her hair color to a tee.

    • Replies: @Denis
    @Mr. Hack

    I'm pretty sure those are Siberians, not Maghrebis.

    , @DFH
    @Mr. Hack

    I went out with a cute Moroccan girl too once; it doesn't mean they're all like that.

    Replies: @Dmitry

  479. @DFH
    @Denis

    Not really, they often have the strange lopsided, off, look that Orthodox Jews do, probably something to do with cousin marriage.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @Denis

    Lol, what are you talking about? Maghrebis and Orthodox Jews look nothing alike, unless the Jews in question happen to be Sephardim who joined the Orthodox. Most Orthodox are Ashkenazim.

    • Replies: @AP
    @Denis

    Here is a Berber, probably what DFH was talking about:

    http://looklex.com/e.o/slides/berbers03.jpg

    Replies: @Denis

    , @DFH
    @Denis

    I didn't say they looked the same overall, I said they had a sort of facial asymmetry and frequent off-look which in that respect was similar to Orthodox Jews.

  480. @Mr. Hack
    @DFH

    'Lopsided look'? The young girl, at least in the bottom photo. has a very pretty symmetrical face structure. Her eyes have that slight exotic Asian look, but are quite large, the hazel type color matches her hair color to a tee.

    Replies: @Denis, @DFH

    I’m pretty sure those are Siberians, not Maghrebis.

  481. @melanf
    @reiner Tor


    Or due to Berber ancestry. Berbers are the original inhabitants of the Maghreb, and they are genetically closer to Europeans than any other population with pre-1492 roots outside of Europe.
     
    As far as I know the Berbers is an example of the independent occurrence of light hair and eyes as a result of mutation spread in the population . Such mutation in history happened
    many times - for example, some tribes of Siberia have blond hair and light eyes

    https://media.nazaccent.ru/files/27/58/2758079a10ecbad755f622901c230b8c.jpg

    https://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/6702/287731.2c/0_bc663_fb69ae36_XL.jpeg.jpg

    Replies: @AP, @Philip Owen

    That’s not because of an independent mutation; Indo-Europeans had once lived in central Asia and these genes have spread around.

    • Replies: @melanf
    @AP


    That’s not because of an independent mutation; Indo-Europeans had once lived in central Asia and these genes have spread around.
     
    Anthropologists who studied these Siberian tribes believe that this is the result of an independent mutation (in small and isolated hunting tribes such mutations, once happened, easily "fixed").

    Probably genetics will soon provide an accurate answer to the question of the origin of the Siberian (also Caucasian, Berber, Himalayan and other non-European) "blondes".
    But blondes among Australian aborigines and Melanesians was the result of independent mutation, it is 100% proven. For this isolated population of blond people in Africa, Siberia, etc. is also likely to have independent origins.

    Replies: @AP

  482. @Denis
    @DFH

    Lol, what are you talking about? Maghrebis and Orthodox Jews look nothing alike, unless the Jews in question happen to be Sephardim who joined the Orthodox. Most Orthodox are Ashkenazim.

    Replies: @AP, @DFH

    Here is a Berber, probably what DFH was talking about:

    • Replies: @Denis
    @AP

    Well, I've spent some time in the Maghreb, and I met plenty beautiful women over there. They didn't look like any Orthodox Jews I've ever seen.

    Replies: @Dmitry

  483. @AP
    @Denis

    Here is a Berber, probably what DFH was talking about:

    http://looklex.com/e.o/slides/berbers03.jpg

    Replies: @Denis

    Well, I’ve spent some time in the Maghreb, and I met plenty beautiful women over there. They didn’t look like any Orthodox Jews I’ve ever seen.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @Denis

    Around 50% of Orthodox Jews, are from African and Middle Eastern countries like Morocco, Egypt, Algeria, Yemen, Tunisia, Libya, Iraq.

    You can see brown skin of Haredi in the right

    https://i.imgur.com/PssLT25.jpg?1

    https://i.imgur.com/a1uU1Bm.jpg

    Brown ones often perfectly integrated with the lighter ones in the same politics and cults

    https://i.imgur.com/Ly8TV30.jpg

    And then National Religious (which a more normal and successful kind of Orthodox Jews) also seem about 50% 50% with the brown and lighter populations in their school.

    https://i.imgur.com/X4SWV9b.jpg


    -

    The religion clearly domesticates and tames behaviour of the brown ones though (it probably removes their violent behaviours), even as they have some politically radical protests.

  484. German_reader says:

    Jared Taylor claims he’s banned from the EU…because of Poland:
    https://www.amren.com/commentary/2019/03/letter-from-zurich-airport/

    If true, I wonder what’s behind this…merely Polish distrust of white nationalist activists, because they’re seen as successors of the Nazis who did so much harm to Poland? Or was there pressure from the US for this?
    In any case, it makes me wonder what use all these “right-wing” governments actually are when they’re just running the usual “antifascist” script (same with the Austrian government which considers banning the identitarians).

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @German_reader

    Jared Taylor Are the Real Racists!

    Replies: @German_reader

    , @DFH
    @German_reader


    Polish distrust of white nationalist activists, because they’re seen as successors of the Nazis who did so much harm to Poland
     
    Does Poland crack down very much on its internal nationalist groups like National Revival though?

    Replies: @German_reader, @szopen

    , @Anonymous
    @German_reader

    Maybe they just lump Taylor in with the rest of the "alt-right" riff-raff on whom they have some kind of blanket exclusion policy? I might do that if I were in their shoes; it's difficult enough for these governments to deflect the "RACIST!" slurs against their immigration policies without some fringy American "white nationalist" going around stirring up trouble (I'd be interested to know what kinds of organizations he was associating with on his last visit to Poland).

    It does speak to the paranoia around these matters. Taylor is a cipher even in his own country; is his fairly squishy brand of ethno-nationalism really a threat to the neoliberal consensus? Maybe the elites think the "consensus" on this issue is more brittle than people like me assume it is.

    , @utu
    @German_reader


    In any case, it makes me wonder what use all these “right-wing” governments actually are
     
    Their only use is for Israel and US strategy to split or weaken the EU. They don't give a damn about Polish or Hungarian national aspirations.

    Replies: @utu

    , @songbird
    @German_reader

    I think it is something bigger. Probably coordination, with New Zealand as the excuse. Martin Sellner supposedly can't enter the US, which is really shocking to me, even moreso than Poland banning someone. I guess it's inevitable that the US Constitution will become totally meaningless - it's been a joke for years.

    Then, of course, there is facebook at about the same time banning white nationalism and separatism.

    What this really evokes to me is the crackdown on people advocating peace during WWI. What is funny is how many intellectuals (many Jewish) seem to blame that crackdown, like the war itself on nationalism. Rather to me, it seems like a case of the elites deciding on a crazy course and then fighting any attempt to correct the course.

    The Western establishment is basically at war with Europeans. It is a political war, but with many of the consequences of real war. Surely, there were less Germans in Paris than there are blacks and North Africans there now. Europeans are paying an indeminity/tribute much larger than any in the past.

    , @szopen
    @German_reader

    Why Polish government should care about some foreigner, actually?

    Replies: @German_reader

  485. OT sort of but I’m getting a stream of anti-Zelensky facebook, and a few pro-Poroshenko, posts by various people in Ukraine. While I am not predicting a Poroshenko win (certainly not in the first round) I would certainly not be surprised if he wins the second round. I’d give him 40% at least.

    I never got any pro-Yuschenko stuff on my feed.

    Zelensky is popular among easterners because he is viewed as not as bad as Poroshenko (he donated a million dollars to the Ukrainian military, but he’s from Dnipropetrovsk and speaks better Russian than Ukrainian). If it was a pure east vs. west thing he wouldn’t stand a chance, but he also picks up some younger voters wanting radical change, from the west and center, which may be enough to put him over the top.

    If voters chose him in the first round as a protest against corruption, but then decide he might be too inexperienced to lead the country he will probably lose. Poroshenko can also release a stream of dirt against him (apparently some former Yanukovich people occupy roles on his team – but so do reformist Maidanists) which will hurt him if it sticks.

    Here is an article by Bershidsky comparing Zelensky to the Slovak candidate Caputova:

    https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2019-03-29/slovakia-and-ukraine-election-populists-aren-t-like-the-others

  486. @German_reader
    Jared Taylor claims he's banned from the EU...because of Poland:
    https://www.amren.com/commentary/2019/03/letter-from-zurich-airport/

    If true, I wonder what's behind this...merely Polish distrust of white nationalist activists, because they're seen as successors of the Nazis who did so much harm to Poland? Or was there pressure from the US for this?
    In any case, it makes me wonder what use all these "right-wing" governments actually are when they're just running the usual "antifascist" script (same with the Austrian government which considers banning the identitarians).

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @DFH, @Anonymous, @utu, @songbird, @szopen

    Jared Taylor Are the Real Racists!

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @reiner Tor

    When used as a values-neutral term, Jared Taylor probably can be considered a racist with good reason, since he explicitly regards race as the central component of identity.
    And maybe many Poles genuinely do find such explicit race talk repellent, since Poles were victims themselves of applied racial theories during the German occupation. I guess it also conflicts with their self-image as noble Catholic conservatives or whatever.
    Still, if they had merely wanted to keep him away from Poland, there must have been other ways than having him banned from the entire EU. So I suspect there's something else at work here.

    Replies: @reiner Tor

  487. German_reader says:
    @reiner Tor
    @German_reader

    Jared Taylor Are the Real Racists!

    Replies: @German_reader

    When used as a values-neutral term, Jared Taylor probably can be considered a racist with good reason, since he explicitly regards race as the central component of identity.
    And maybe many Poles genuinely do find such explicit race talk repellent, since Poles were victims themselves of applied racial theories during the German occupation. I guess it also conflicts with their self-image as noble Catholic conservatives or whatever.
    Still, if they had merely wanted to keep him away from Poland, there must have been other ways than having him banned from the entire EU. So I suspect there’s something else at work here.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @German_reader

    I guess the joke about the guy advising the other that he cannot outrun the bear ("But I only have to outrun you!") applies here: Polish (or Hungarian) nationalists are thinking that they don't have to be globohomos, just less nationalist than Jared Tayler (or in Hungary's case Richard Spencer). It's pretty demented, because of course there will be a next round.

  488. The European Parliament has spoken:

    End racist discrimination against Afro-European people in the EU

    MEPs call on the EU and its member states to take measures to tackle the structural racism people of African descent face in Europe.

    In a resolution adopted on Tuesday with 535 in favour to 80 votes against, and 44 abstentions, Parliament urges EU and national authorities to develop anti-racism policies and stop discrimination; in the fields of education, housing, health, criminal justice, political participation and migration.

    In light of increasing afrophobic attacks, MEPs call on the European Commission and EU member states to acknowledge the racist, discriminatory and xenophobic suffering of Afro-Europeans, and offer proper protection against these inequalities to ensure that hate crimes are suitably investigated, prosecuted and sanctioned. Additionally, people of African descent should be taken into account more in current funding programmes and in the next multiannual financial framework (2021-2027). . .

    Crimes against humanity during colonialism

    The resolution encourages EU institutions and member states to address and rectify past injustices and crimes against humanity, perpetrated in the name of European colonialism. These historic crimes still have present day negative consequences for people of African descent, MEPs claim.

    MEPs suggest carrying out reparations, such as apologising publicly and return stolen artefacts to their countries of origin. Parliament also calls on EU countries to declassify their colonial archives, as well as to present a comprehensive perspective on colonialism and slavery in the educational curricula.

    Background

    Approximately 15 million people of African descent currently live in Europe. They face persistent discrimination and are subject to deeply rooted negative stereotyping.

    Evidence suggests that Afro-European children receive lower grades at school than their white counterparts, and their rate of early school leaving is markedly higher.

    http://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/da/press-room/20190321IPR32133/end-racist-discrimination-against-afro-european-people-in-the-eu

  489. And some heartwarming news from France:

    Greek tragedy prompts ‘blackface’ racism row at Sorbonne

    A row over alleged racism and attacks on freedom of expression has erupted in France after students forced the Sorbonne to cancel a performance of a Greek tragedy featuring actors using black masks, claiming it was “Afrophobic, colonialist and racist”.

    Protesters picketed the prestigious Paris university, stopping actors from entering the theatre and accusing them of using blackface for the play The Suppliants by Aeschylus.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/mar/28/sorbonne-at-centre-of-racism-row-after-alleged-blackface-in-theatre-show

    The protesting Classical scholars:

  490. @Daniel Chieh
    @reiner Tor

    The only part I have have to contribute is that I personally found a lot of Algerians to be rather European in appearance, due to French ancestry. A girl I knew there had pale skin and green eyes.

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @Denis, @songbird

    Interesting fact: the Algerian separatists selected the most European-looking women to plant the bombs that often targeted French women and children.

    I think there’s been a lot of geneflow between Europe and North Africa before the French invaded North Africa, probably since at least neolithic times, or even before. Of course, there was a great traffic in female slaves from Europe. They often were bought to become wives, and so had many children. In old novels, the Tuareg were often said to be light-eyed. Probably not typical, but at least a sometimes thing. There are also black Berbers, from African slaves – they are considered lower caste.

  491. @Denis
    @DFH

    Lol, what are you talking about? Maghrebis and Orthodox Jews look nothing alike, unless the Jews in question happen to be Sephardim who joined the Orthodox. Most Orthodox are Ashkenazim.

    Replies: @AP, @DFH

    I didn’t say they looked the same overall, I said they had a sort of facial asymmetry and frequent off-look which in that respect was similar to Orthodox Jews.

  492. @Mr. Hack
    @DFH

    'Lopsided look'? The young girl, at least in the bottom photo. has a very pretty symmetrical face structure. Her eyes have that slight exotic Asian look, but are quite large, the hazel type color matches her hair color to a tee.

    Replies: @Denis, @DFH

    I went out with a cute Moroccan girl too once; it doesn’t mean they’re all like that.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @DFH

    You date African women, with your politics? - unless I confused you with someone else here.

  493. @German_reader
    Jared Taylor claims he's banned from the EU...because of Poland:
    https://www.amren.com/commentary/2019/03/letter-from-zurich-airport/

    If true, I wonder what's behind this...merely Polish distrust of white nationalist activists, because they're seen as successors of the Nazis who did so much harm to Poland? Or was there pressure from the US for this?
    In any case, it makes me wonder what use all these "right-wing" governments actually are when they're just running the usual "antifascist" script (same with the Austrian government which considers banning the identitarians).

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @DFH, @Anonymous, @utu, @songbird, @szopen

    Polish distrust of white nationalist activists, because they’re seen as successors of the Nazis who did so much harm to Poland

    Does Poland crack down very much on its internal nationalist groups like National Revival though?

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @DFH

    I have no idea about right-wing Polish movements tbh. I'd just suppose it might complicate matters when one of the most important national myths is resistance against the National Socialists (who were extreme racialists after all).
    But in any case events in the last few months have been rather disheartening.

    , @szopen
    @DFH

    It's really a no-brainer. Banning some no-name from the west in return for some signalling points, while refusing to ban him = one more argument for the west and for the internal opposition to call current government "fascists". And here they can say "see, we banned this awful rascist... eee what was his name? Haredi Taylor? That's right! We are not racists!"

    Replies: @Epigon, @DFH, @reiner Tor

  494. @Thorfinnsson
    @Denis

    The former minister aside (who is half-Swedish as her coal burning mother is Swedish), the good news about Sweden's vibrants is that they are exceptionally poorly integrated. Thus they have much less prominence than vibrants do in most other European countries.

    Replies: @DFH

    They make up for it by the fact their current culture minister pretends to be black

  495. The Berber family of Yacine Kateb in the 1940s. Yacine is the little boy. They look so normal.

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
    @Hyperborean

    Iraq:

    http://www.iraqiembassy.us/sites/default/files/styles/large/public/photos/Dancers.JPG?itok=5hrmgIrR

    http://www.iraqiembassy.us/sites/default/files/styles/large/public/photos/Children%20in%20School.JPG?itok=kg-qelxp

    http://www.iraqiembassy.us/sites/default/files/styles/large/public/photos/Iraqis%20gather%20in%20the%20street.JPG?itok=peXwPBdB

    Iran:

    https://i.guim.co.uk/img/static/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2014/9/9/1410274163332/1ef84843-5116-460c-ad8e-ac26734e9245-1020x699.jpeg?width=480&quality=45&auto=format&fit=max&dpr=2&s=91ba1ae1667a19fd36171df1a278227b

    https://i.guim.co.uk/img/static/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2014/9/4/1409842326372/2488a349-307b-4f37-a534-ebb448121d62-525x660.jpeg?width=480&quality=45&auto=format&fit=max&dpr=2&s=bdfe237ad5c90e8230141e5a8f1b262e

    https://i.guim.co.uk/img/static/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2014/9/9/1410272845692/bf7cc3c7-733f-4e33-b919-b5d04445f3c4-bestSizeAvailable.jpeg?width=480&quality=45&auto=format&fit=max&dpr=2&s=f3883352d6bb9279c55e06ef3a472aff

    https://i.guim.co.uk/img/static/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2014/9/3/1409743894528/c7eb9ce3-de54-46db-ba60-0fadd65ec203-1024x768.jpeg?width=480&quality=45&auto=format&fit=max&dpr=2&s=60cefd667730cff08e036c95bc0a67f9

    Lebanon:

    https://www.lebanoninapicture.com/Prv/Images/Pages/Page_6514/tumblr_m1aodxgWr21qhij65o1_500-l.jpg

    http://www.souar.com/data/media/17/lebanon_old_pictures_2013__21_.jpg

    http://www.souar.com/data/media/17/lebanon_old_pictures_2013__44_.jpg

    http://www.souar.com/data/media/17/image003.jpg

    Replies: @Dmitry

  496. @Denis
    @AP

    Well, I've spent some time in the Maghreb, and I met plenty beautiful women over there. They didn't look like any Orthodox Jews I've ever seen.

    Replies: @Dmitry

    Around 50% of Orthodox Jews, are from African and Middle Eastern countries like Morocco, Egypt, Algeria, Yemen, Tunisia, Libya, Iraq.

    You can see brown skin of Haredi in the right


    Brown ones often perfectly integrated with the lighter ones in the same politics and cults

    And then National Religious (which a more normal and successful kind of Orthodox Jews) also seem about 50% 50% with the brown and lighter populations in their school.

    The religion clearly domesticates and tames behaviour of the brown ones though (it probably removes their violent behaviours), even as they have some politically radical protests.

  497. @DFH
    @Mr. Hack

    I went out with a cute Moroccan girl too once; it doesn't mean they're all like that.

    Replies: @Dmitry

    You date African women, with your politics? – unless I confused you with someone else here.

  498. @melanf
    @reiner Tor


    I don’t know how Swedish women of each specific age group look like anyway, I’m just curious.
     
    Roughly such as I think (perhaps inhabitants Sweden correct me ).
    https://d.radikal.ru/d40/1903/8b/8ebabbbad025.jpg

    In General, beauty is only a small percentage of women in any country in the world, even among young girls (for Sweden this is also true - having visited Sweden, it is easy to make sure that the average Swedish girl is very different from the average Swedish actress/model ). And women after 40 on average are less attractive than in 17 years.

    Replies: @Dmitry

    I haven’t been to Sweden.

    But it’s surprising your post – I would have guessed Swedish women would age more attractively than most countries, considering overall conditions of Sweden: a country with low obesity, healthy diet, low sun exposure, high income and low pollution.

    And women after 40 on average are less attractive than in 17 years.

    Or often, sadly, only after 30.

    • Replies: @melanf
    @Dmitry


    But it’s surprising your post – I would have guessed Swedish women would age more attractively than most countries
     
    Attractiveness thing subjective - for a lover of tall blondes Scandinavia (and the North-Western part of Russia) is just a Paradise. For a lover of petite brunettes is better to go to Spain.

    But I did not compare countries, my point was different: in any, absolutely any country in the world, beauties make up a relatively small percentage of girls. Those who (as a result of viewing photos on the Internet) think that all Swedish girls look like Ingrid Bergman/Anita Ekberg will be bitterly disappointed if they come to Sweden.

    This also applies to Russia/ Poland/ Japan/China any country in the world

    Replies: @Dmitry

  499. @Hyperborean
    The Berber family of Yacine Kateb in the 1940s. Yacine is the little boy. They look so normal.

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a3/Kateb_Yacine_family%2C_Souk_Ahras_1940s.jpg/424px-Kateb_Yacine_family%2C_Souk_Ahras_1940s.jpg

    Replies: @Hyperborean

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @Hyperborean

    What are you trying to show? Something about their clothes?

    I notice more the introduction of those nice Americans cars.

    Aside from the oil wealth it would bring them abroad - the introduction of automobiles to Middle Eastern cities, was even more tragic than for the rest of us.

    What happened when automobiles introduced to Middle Eastern cities:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0THY_KixIXE

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nl8JKDIyGU4

    Replies: @songbird

  500. German_reader says:
    @DFH
    @German_reader


    Polish distrust of white nationalist activists, because they’re seen as successors of the Nazis who did so much harm to Poland
     
    Does Poland crack down very much on its internal nationalist groups like National Revival though?

    Replies: @German_reader, @szopen

    I have no idea about right-wing Polish movements tbh. I’d just suppose it might complicate matters when one of the most important national myths is resistance against the National Socialists (who were extreme racialists after all).
    But in any case events in the last few months have been rather disheartening.

  501. @Hyperborean
    @Hyperborean

    Iraq:

    http://www.iraqiembassy.us/sites/default/files/styles/large/public/photos/Dancers.JPG?itok=5hrmgIrR

    http://www.iraqiembassy.us/sites/default/files/styles/large/public/photos/Children%20in%20School.JPG?itok=kg-qelxp

    http://www.iraqiembassy.us/sites/default/files/styles/large/public/photos/Iraqis%20gather%20in%20the%20street.JPG?itok=peXwPBdB

    Iran:

    https://i.guim.co.uk/img/static/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2014/9/9/1410274163332/1ef84843-5116-460c-ad8e-ac26734e9245-1020x699.jpeg?width=480&quality=45&auto=format&fit=max&dpr=2&s=91ba1ae1667a19fd36171df1a278227b

    https://i.guim.co.uk/img/static/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2014/9/4/1409842326372/2488a349-307b-4f37-a534-ebb448121d62-525x660.jpeg?width=480&quality=45&auto=format&fit=max&dpr=2&s=bdfe237ad5c90e8230141e5a8f1b262e

    https://i.guim.co.uk/img/static/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2014/9/9/1410272845692/bf7cc3c7-733f-4e33-b919-b5d04445f3c4-bestSizeAvailable.jpeg?width=480&quality=45&auto=format&fit=max&dpr=2&s=f3883352d6bb9279c55e06ef3a472aff

    https://i.guim.co.uk/img/static/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2014/9/3/1409743894528/c7eb9ce3-de54-46db-ba60-0fadd65ec203-1024x768.jpeg?width=480&quality=45&auto=format&fit=max&dpr=2&s=60cefd667730cff08e036c95bc0a67f9

    Lebanon:

    https://www.lebanoninapicture.com/Prv/Images/Pages/Page_6514/tumblr_m1aodxgWr21qhij65o1_500-l.jpg

    http://www.souar.com/data/media/17/lebanon_old_pictures_2013__21_.jpg

    http://www.souar.com/data/media/17/lebanon_old_pictures_2013__44_.jpg

    http://www.souar.com/data/media/17/image003.jpg

    Replies: @Dmitry

    What are you trying to show? Something about their clothes?

    I notice more the introduction of those nice Americans cars.

    Aside from the oil wealth it would bring them abroad – the introduction of automobiles to Middle Eastern cities, was even more tragic than for the rest of us.

    What happened when automobiles introduced to Middle Eastern cities:

    • Replies: @songbird
    @Dmitry

    Oil really profoundly changed the Middle East.

    Trillions of dollars in the ground. Artificial nitrogen fixation, rail, and trucks made food much cheaper. (A lot of this destabilization was because of the price of food - incredibly cheap, by past standards) Previously, a third of agricultural land in the US was devoted to feeding horses. Oil-powered shipping is much more efficient than coal. Then there's the whole idea of being an air hub, not to mention air conditioning.

    Almost 90% of the drinking water in Saudi Arabia comes from fossil fuels. About 50% from desalination. About 40% from pumping deep groundwater, and a large amount is transported in tankers.

    Though it has caused trouble too, I wouldn't like to be the last Arab in the Middle East when the oil runs out. I can almost understand why they are so gung ho about invading the West.

  502. @Gerard2
    @Dmitry

    To do this , not only would there have to be full trade links restored with Russia...but the likes of Bulgaria, Poland, Romania would have to become ultra--wealthy, high-tech , prosperous countries....with Ukraine providing the role to them in goods and services......, that they now provide to the main/wealthiest countries like UK,France, Germany, Holland , Italy, Scandinavian etcet,
    I simply can't see this happening.

    Gruzia is way ahead of Ukraine in organisation & technocrats. Turkey and Azerbaijan are relatively wealthy countries for Gruzia to have good trade relations with...but without full economic & political relations with Russia it's infrastructure and it's GDP are pitiful ( and that is despite excellent levels of FDI in a small country)
    That is why even as far as 2030-2040 in the future...I can't see any way out of the nightmare that Ukropia is in now....and if Gruzia is nowhere near joining the EU now... I can't see when they can join.

    Except if you're Israel ,good relations with powerful; &/or wealthy neighbors are essential in order to be succesful....and that is before we even get into the unrelenting freakshow and mess of Ukraine.

    Replies: @Dmitry

    Lol are you sure? It may be even more chaotic than Ukraine.

    I know people talk about how they like Tbilisi, because it’s completely disorganized and you see many crazy and comic events every day living there.

    But despite being an idiocracy, Georgia has still been developing for the last few years.

    Combining their falling population and 5% GDP growth, it is not impossible Georgia could almost reach “developed economy” status in the 2030s or 2040s.

  503. @Dmitry
    @Hyperborean

    What are you trying to show? Something about their clothes?

    I notice more the introduction of those nice Americans cars.

    Aside from the oil wealth it would bring them abroad - the introduction of automobiles to Middle Eastern cities, was even more tragic than for the rest of us.

    What happened when automobiles introduced to Middle Eastern cities:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0THY_KixIXE

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nl8JKDIyGU4

    Replies: @songbird

    Oil really profoundly changed the Middle East.

    Trillions of dollars in the ground. Artificial nitrogen fixation, rail, and trucks made food much cheaper. (A lot of this destabilization was because of the price of food – incredibly cheap, by past standards) Previously, a third of agricultural land in the US was devoted to feeding horses. Oil-powered shipping is much more efficient than coal. Then there’s the whole idea of being an air hub, not to mention air conditioning.

    Almost 90% of the drinking water in Saudi Arabia comes from fossil fuels. About 50% from desalination. About 40% from pumping deep groundwater, and a large amount is transported in tankers.

    Though it has caused trouble too, I wouldn’t like to be the last Arab in the Middle East when the oil runs out. I can almost understand why they are so gung ho about invading the West.

  504. Anonymous[151] • Disclaimer says:
    @German_reader
    Jared Taylor claims he's banned from the EU...because of Poland:
    https://www.amren.com/commentary/2019/03/letter-from-zurich-airport/

    If true, I wonder what's behind this...merely Polish distrust of white nationalist activists, because they're seen as successors of the Nazis who did so much harm to Poland? Or was there pressure from the US for this?
    In any case, it makes me wonder what use all these "right-wing" governments actually are when they're just running the usual "antifascist" script (same with the Austrian government which considers banning the identitarians).

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @DFH, @Anonymous, @utu, @songbird, @szopen

    Maybe they just lump Taylor in with the rest of the “alt-right” riff-raff on whom they have some kind of blanket exclusion policy? I might do that if I were in their shoes; it’s difficult enough for these governments to deflect the “RACIST!” slurs against their immigration policies without some fringy American “white nationalist” going around stirring up trouble (I’d be interested to know what kinds of organizations he was associating with on his last visit to Poland).

    It does speak to the paranoia around these matters. Taylor is a cipher even in his own country; is his fairly squishy brand of ethno-nationalism really a threat to the neoliberal consensus? Maybe the elites think the “consensus” on this issue is more brittle than people like me assume it is.

  505. @AP
    @melanf

    That's not because of an independent mutation; Indo-Europeans had once lived in central Asia and these genes have spread around.

    Replies: @melanf

    That’s not because of an independent mutation; Indo-Europeans had once lived in central Asia and these genes have spread around.

    Anthropologists who studied these Siberian tribes believe that this is the result of an independent mutation (in small and isolated hunting tribes such mutations, once happened, easily “fixed”).

    Probably genetics will soon provide an accurate answer to the question of the origin of the Siberian (also Caucasian, Berber, Himalayan and other non-European) “blondes”.
    But blondes among Australian aborigines and Melanesians was the result of independent mutation, it is 100% proven. For this isolated population of blond people in Africa, Siberia, etc. is also likely to have independent origins.

    • Replies: @AP
    @melanf


    Anthropologists who studied these Siberian tribes believe that this is the result of an independent mutation
     
    Maybe. Independent mutation certainly explains blondes in Melanesia. But in Siberia, this is also a likely explanation:

    http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2010/11/no-romans-needed-to-explain-chinese-blondes/#.XJ9uCndFyUk

    Apparently the blond mutation among Indo-Europeans originated in Siberia ~14,000 years ago. It's pretty likely that it spread among non-European peoples also.

    Wiki says "The derived allele of KITLG associated with blond hair in modern Europeans is present in several individuals of the Ancient North Eurasian (ANE) lineage, and is recorded in Mesolithic Eastern Europe as associated with the Eastern European Hunter-Gatherer (EHG) lineage derived from ANE. The earliest known individual with the derived allele is the ANE Afontova Gora 3 individual, dated to 14,700 years ago.[33]"
  506. @German_reader
    @reiner Tor

    When used as a values-neutral term, Jared Taylor probably can be considered a racist with good reason, since he explicitly regards race as the central component of identity.
    And maybe many Poles genuinely do find such explicit race talk repellent, since Poles were victims themselves of applied racial theories during the German occupation. I guess it also conflicts with their self-image as noble Catholic conservatives or whatever.
    Still, if they had merely wanted to keep him away from Poland, there must have been other ways than having him banned from the entire EU. So I suspect there's something else at work here.

    Replies: @reiner Tor

    I guess the joke about the guy advising the other that he cannot outrun the bear (“But I only have to outrun you!”) applies here: Polish (or Hungarian) nationalists are thinking that they don’t have to be globohomos, just less nationalist than Jared Tayler (or in Hungary’s case Richard Spencer). It’s pretty demented, because of course there will be a next round.

  507. @Dmitry
    @melanf

    I haven't been to Sweden.

    But it's surprising your post - I would have guessed Swedish women would age more attractively than most countries, considering overall conditions of Sweden: a country with low obesity, healthy diet, low sun exposure, high income and low pollution.


    And women after 40 on average are less attractive than in 17 years.
     
    Or often, sadly, only after 30.

    Replies: @melanf

    But it’s surprising your post – I would have guessed Swedish women would age more attractively than most countries

    Attractiveness thing subjective – for a lover of tall blondes Scandinavia (and the North-Western part of Russia) is just a Paradise. For a lover of petite brunettes is better to go to Spain.

    But I did not compare countries, my point was different: in any, absolutely any country in the world, beauties make up a relatively small percentage of girls. Those who (as a result of viewing photos on the Internet) think that all Swedish girls look like Ingrid Bergman/Anita Ekberg will be bitterly disappointed if they come to Sweden.

    This also applies to Russia/ Poland/ Japan/China any country in the world

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @melanf


    But I did not compare countries, my point was different: in any, absolutely any country in the world, beauties make up a relatively small percentage of girls. Those who (as a result of viewing photos on the Internet) think that all Swedish girls look like Ingrid Bergman/Anita Ekberg will be bitterly disappointed if they come to Sweden.
     
    Sure, but I was interested about your point about aging.

    I'm sure you're right although I haven't been in Sweden. So I was interested when you said women are aging especially badly. It's not what you would expect from general conditions of life there.

    Replies: @melanf

  508. @German_reader
    Jared Taylor claims he's banned from the EU...because of Poland:
    https://www.amren.com/commentary/2019/03/letter-from-zurich-airport/

    If true, I wonder what's behind this...merely Polish distrust of white nationalist activists, because they're seen as successors of the Nazis who did so much harm to Poland? Or was there pressure from the US for this?
    In any case, it makes me wonder what use all these "right-wing" governments actually are when they're just running the usual "antifascist" script (same with the Austrian government which considers banning the identitarians).

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @DFH, @Anonymous, @utu, @songbird, @szopen

    In any case, it makes me wonder what use all these “right-wing” governments actually are

    Their only use is for Israel and US strategy to split or weaken the EU. They don’t give a damn about Polish or Hungarian national aspirations.

    • Replies: @utu
    @utu

    Israel urges Poland to deny entry to British Holocaust denier David Irving (20 March 2019)
    https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-urges-poland-to-deny-entry-to-british-holocaust-denier-david-irving/

    Poland says Holocaust denier David Irving ‘not welcome’ on death camp tour (24 March 2019)
    https://www.timesofisrael.com/poland-says-holocaust-denier-david-irving-not-welcome-on-death-camp-tour/

    Replies: @German_reader

  509. @utu
    @German_reader


    In any case, it makes me wonder what use all these “right-wing” governments actually are
     
    Their only use is for Israel and US strategy to split or weaken the EU. They don't give a damn about Polish or Hungarian national aspirations.

    Replies: @utu

    Israel urges Poland to deny entry to British Holocaust denier David Irving (20 March 2019)
    https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-urges-poland-to-deny-entry-to-british-holocaust-denier-david-irving/

    Poland says Holocaust denier David Irving ‘not welcome’ on death camp tour (24 March 2019)
    https://www.timesofisrael.com/poland-says-holocaust-denier-david-irving-not-welcome-on-death-camp-tour/

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @utu

    Banning David Irving is understandable imo, since Poland is obviously extremely sensitive to anything that would downplay Nazi German crimes.
    I don't think Taylor has ever expressed positive views of Nazi Germany though (he'd probably fault Hitler for having caused the deaths of so many white Europeans), nor is he explicitly antisemitic. It's also ridiculous to claim that he's likely to incite violence.
    It just seems perverse to ban him, especially at a time when thousands of IS jihadis are returning to Europe, often facing nothing more than being welcomed by some social worker who's to help them with "reintegrating".
    I guess this shows how deep the rot really goes and how grim the situation is.

    Replies: @utu

  510. @German_reader
    Jared Taylor claims he's banned from the EU...because of Poland:
    https://www.amren.com/commentary/2019/03/letter-from-zurich-airport/

    If true, I wonder what's behind this...merely Polish distrust of white nationalist activists, because they're seen as successors of the Nazis who did so much harm to Poland? Or was there pressure from the US for this?
    In any case, it makes me wonder what use all these "right-wing" governments actually are when they're just running the usual "antifascist" script (same with the Austrian government which considers banning the identitarians).

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @DFH, @Anonymous, @utu, @songbird, @szopen

    I think it is something bigger. Probably coordination, with New Zealand as the excuse. Martin Sellner supposedly can’t enter the US, which is really shocking to me, even moreso than Poland banning someone. I guess it’s inevitable that the US Constitution will become totally meaningless – it’s been a joke for years.

    Then, of course, there is facebook at about the same time banning white nationalism and separatism.

    What this really evokes to me is the crackdown on people advocating peace during WWI. What is funny is how many intellectuals (many Jewish) seem to blame that crackdown, like the war itself on nationalism. Rather to me, it seems like a case of the elites deciding on a crazy course and then fighting any attempt to correct the course.

    The Western establishment is basically at war with Europeans. It is a political war, but with many of the consequences of real war. Surely, there were less Germans in Paris than there are blacks and North Africans there now. Europeans are paying an indeminity/tribute much larger than any in the past.

    • Agree: German_reader
  511. AP says:
    @melanf
    @AP


    That’s not because of an independent mutation; Indo-Europeans had once lived in central Asia and these genes have spread around.
     
    Anthropologists who studied these Siberian tribes believe that this is the result of an independent mutation (in small and isolated hunting tribes such mutations, once happened, easily "fixed").

    Probably genetics will soon provide an accurate answer to the question of the origin of the Siberian (also Caucasian, Berber, Himalayan and other non-European) "blondes".
    But blondes among Australian aborigines and Melanesians was the result of independent mutation, it is 100% proven. For this isolated population of blond people in Africa, Siberia, etc. is also likely to have independent origins.

    Replies: @AP

    Anthropologists who studied these Siberian tribes believe that this is the result of an independent mutation

    Maybe. Independent mutation certainly explains blondes in Melanesia. But in Siberia, this is also a likely explanation:

    http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2010/11/no-romans-needed-to-explain-chinese-blondes/#.XJ9uCndFyUk

    Apparently the blond mutation among Indo-Europeans originated in Siberia ~14,000 years ago. It’s pretty likely that it spread among non-European peoples also.

    Wiki says “The derived allele of KITLG associated with blond hair in modern Europeans is present in several individuals of the Ancient North Eurasian (ANE) lineage, and is recorded in Mesolithic Eastern Europe as associated with the Eastern European Hunter-Gatherer (EHG) lineage derived from ANE. The earliest known individual with the derived allele is the ANE Afontova Gora 3 individual, dated to 14,700 years ago.[33]”

  512. An example of schmuck journalism:

    https://thinkprogress.org/alan-dershowitz-russia-propaganda-02f4cf31c533/

    Calling RT propaganda, unlike MSNBC and CNN, in addition to calling someone with a valid view, a conspiracy theorist.

    • LOL: Mr. Hack
  513. Southwest grounds Boeing 737 MAX jets until end of May

    Mar. 30, 2019 10:11 AM ET|About: Southwest Airlines Co. (LUV)|By: Clark Schultz, SA News Editor

    Southwest Airlines (NYSE:LUV) says it will was pull its 34 Boeing 737 MAX 8 jets from the company’s flight schedules through the end of May, according to Reuters. An earlier timeline had the Boeing 737 MAX jets grounded until April 20.

    “This will impact the lines in May, but, now that the decision has been made, we can construct our schedule without those flights well in advance in hopes to minimize the daily disruptions,” says the company and the Southwest Airlines Pilots Association in a joint memorandum.

    Southwest is in the process of publishing a new schedule for May to take into the account the Boeing 737 Max 8 grounding.

    Shares of LUV are up 11.7% YTD and trade at just under 11X 2019 EPS estimates.

    https://seekingalpha.com/news/3447072-southwest-grounds-boeing-737-max-jets-end-may

  514. German_reader says:
    @utu
    @utu

    Israel urges Poland to deny entry to British Holocaust denier David Irving (20 March 2019)
    https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-urges-poland-to-deny-entry-to-british-holocaust-denier-david-irving/

    Poland says Holocaust denier David Irving ‘not welcome’ on death camp tour (24 March 2019)
    https://www.timesofisrael.com/poland-says-holocaust-denier-david-irving-not-welcome-on-death-camp-tour/

    Replies: @German_reader

    Banning David Irving is understandable imo, since Poland is obviously extremely sensitive to anything that would downplay Nazi German crimes.
    I don’t think Taylor has ever expressed positive views of Nazi Germany though (he’d probably fault Hitler for having caused the deaths of so many white Europeans), nor is he explicitly antisemitic. It’s also ridiculous to claim that he’s likely to incite violence.
    It just seems perverse to ban him, especially at a time when thousands of IS jihadis are returning to Europe, often facing nothing more than being welcomed by some social worker who’s to help them with “reintegrating”.
    I guess this shows how deep the rot really goes and how grim the situation is.

    • Replies: @utu
    @German_reader

    Jared Taylor is a useless windbag.

    Replies: @songbird

  515. @German_reader
    @utu

    Banning David Irving is understandable imo, since Poland is obviously extremely sensitive to anything that would downplay Nazi German crimes.
    I don't think Taylor has ever expressed positive views of Nazi Germany though (he'd probably fault Hitler for having caused the deaths of so many white Europeans), nor is he explicitly antisemitic. It's also ridiculous to claim that he's likely to incite violence.
    It just seems perverse to ban him, especially at a time when thousands of IS jihadis are returning to Europe, often facing nothing more than being welcomed by some social worker who's to help them with "reintegrating".
    I guess this shows how deep the rot really goes and how grim the situation is.

    Replies: @utu

    Jared Taylor is a useless windbag.

    • Replies: @songbird
    @utu

    What would make him useful? If he were anti-ZOG? He went to Yale and probably had a lot of Jewish friends, but he's not a neocon, as far as I know.

    I think even Charles Murray is useful, although I consider him rather soft on immigration and the realities of race. Taylor runs a moderately useful website and conferences, anyway. Ideally, he'd be producing popular mass entertainment/propaganda. But since no one on the Right is doing that, it is probably not too easy to do outside the existing Leftist framework.

    Replies: @utu

  516. @DFH
    @German_reader


    Polish distrust of white nationalist activists, because they’re seen as successors of the Nazis who did so much harm to Poland
     
    Does Poland crack down very much on its internal nationalist groups like National Revival though?

    Replies: @German_reader, @szopen

    It’s really a no-brainer. Banning some no-name from the west in return for some signalling points, while refusing to ban him = one more argument for the west and for the internal opposition to call current government “fascists”. And here they can say “see, we banned this awful rascist… eee what was his name? Haredi Taylor? That’s right! We are not racists!”

    • Disagree: Epigon
    • Replies: @Epigon
    @szopen

    Naturally, I agree with your explanation - I was too clumsy to press Agree instead of Disagree - there is no way to correct it that I am aware of,

    Replies: @German_reader

    , @DFH
    @szopen

    I agree about the attempt to get signalling points, although obviously it's totally ineffective. I don't think they would have been blamed for allowing him in though; did anyone care about his visit last year?

    , @reiner Tor
    @szopen

    I think the virtue signaling benefit is basically nonexistent. In Hungary Richard Spencer was kicked out on Orbán’s personal decision after the liberal press created a minor scandal about the supposed neo-Nazi conference. After that the same liberal press published a few articles about how problematic it is that the prime minister could make such decisions to shut down this conference, racist or not, this suddenly became a question of liberty and human rights and maybe even freedom of expression. Okay, there were more articles about the horrors of the racist conference, so probably Orbán was better off this way, but the benefits either way were minimal.

    I’m opposed to gaining virtue signaling points by punching right. It’s also a kind of national psychopathy to not care for other countries in the same civilization. It’s also pretty shortsighted. The fate of Poland will be decided in Western Europe and the US. You cannot seriously believe that Poland will have a peaceful affluent bourgeois society with 99% white Poles with the rest of Europe in the state of a Lebanon style civil war among the different Muslim and African factions and the US under an anti-white half black Hindu president. We should at least do minimal damage to the people fighting this future there.

    Replies: @DFH, @szopen

  517. @German_reader
    Jared Taylor claims he's banned from the EU...because of Poland:
    https://www.amren.com/commentary/2019/03/letter-from-zurich-airport/

    If true, I wonder what's behind this...merely Polish distrust of white nationalist activists, because they're seen as successors of the Nazis who did so much harm to Poland? Or was there pressure from the US for this?
    In any case, it makes me wonder what use all these "right-wing" governments actually are when they're just running the usual "antifascist" script (same with the Austrian government which considers banning the identitarians).

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @DFH, @Anonymous, @utu, @songbird, @szopen

    Why Polish government should care about some foreigner, actually?

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @szopen

    If they had merely refused him entry to Poland, I don't think there would be reason to complain...but having him banned from the entire EU?
    And it's a mistake to think that such antiracist signaling will ever work and help to deflect criticism, it merely validates the existing narrative instead of reframing it.
    If Jared Taylor is promoting a "totalitarian ideology", why should it be ok for Poland to stay majority Polish and Catholic? Isn't that the opposite of the inclusiveness an open society should strive for, and kind of totalitarian itself?
    And if it's ok for Poland to push an initiative to ban an individual from the entire EU, why doesn't Poland show more solidarity with other EU countries and take its fair share of refugees? Pretty hypocritical to denounce racism with words, but not act upon it.

    Replies: @szopen, @utu, @Anonymous

  518. German_reader says:
    @szopen
    @German_reader

    Why Polish government should care about some foreigner, actually?

    Replies: @German_reader

    If they had merely refused him entry to Poland, I don’t think there would be reason to complain…but having him banned from the entire EU?
    And it’s a mistake to think that such antiracist signaling will ever work and help to deflect criticism, it merely validates the existing narrative instead of reframing it.
    If Jared Taylor is promoting a “totalitarian ideology”, why should it be ok for Poland to stay majority Polish and Catholic? Isn’t that the opposite of the inclusiveness an open society should strive for, and kind of totalitarian itself?
    And if it’s ok for Poland to push an initiative to ban an individual from the entire EU, why doesn’t Poland show more solidarity with other EU countries and take its fair share of refugees? Pretty hypocritical to denounce racism with words, but not act upon it.

    • Replies: @szopen
    @German_reader


    Pretty hypocritical to denounce racism with words, but not act upon it.
     
    Welcome to the real world :D

    It's really simple. Jared Taylor is no one. He has not political support. Banning him costs you nothing. Not banning might cost you something.

    Another thing is that it's not necessarily "Government". The administration is large and numerous, and it's not like it got purged with the elections.

    Replies: @German_reader

    , @utu
    @German_reader

    Jared Taylor exemplifies American racist provisionalism. The American concept of Whiteness was invented in the American South from where it metastasized to almost all America with the help of American oligarchy. Europe and Poland is not interested in American primitive racial categories. Europeans fortunately did not get infected with the American White pseudo-identity so far because they still have a rich cultural heritage from which they can draw the sense who they are. The Islamic thread to Europe of which you are so concerned will be easily contained once the political will will be regained. On the other hand Americanization is a of much greater threat to Europeans in the long run.

    David Irving had much more to offer to European self understanding before his livelihood and reputations was destroyed by Jewish Americans and his work could and still can lead to some healing of deep wounds left by the WWII. America and its Jared Taylors can only keep festering this wounds.

    Replies: @German_reader

    , @Anonymous
    @German_reader

    I doubt the Polish authorities are parsing Taylor's message and ideology that closely. What's more likely is they see an American associating with native far-right groups and getting attention for it, this gets them concerned, they spend 5 minutes Googling Taylor based on which they designate him some kind of crypto-Nazi and terrorist sympathizer (Dylann Roof), and he gets banned. It may have just been the judgment of some mid-level customs bureaucrat; I don't think decisions like this get a particularly high degree of scrutiny (in the US they certainly don't seem to).

  519. @utu
    @German_reader

    Jared Taylor is a useless windbag.

    Replies: @songbird

    What would make him useful? If he were anti-ZOG? He went to Yale and probably had a lot of Jewish friends, but he’s not a neocon, as far as I know.

    I think even Charles Murray is useful, although I consider him rather soft on immigration and the realities of race. Taylor runs a moderately useful website and conferences, anyway. Ideally, he’d be producing popular mass entertainment/propaganda. But since no one on the Right is doing that, it is probably not too easy to do outside the existing Leftist framework.

    • Replies: @utu
    @songbird

    He is as much useful as some ornithologist who is concerned about some pond being overtaken by migrating Canadian gees to the detriment of the indigenous loons, who talks about it but mostly because he is in love with his own voice while really not giving a fuck about the loons and the outcome.

  520. @German_reader
    @szopen

    If they had merely refused him entry to Poland, I don't think there would be reason to complain...but having him banned from the entire EU?
    And it's a mistake to think that such antiracist signaling will ever work and help to deflect criticism, it merely validates the existing narrative instead of reframing it.
    If Jared Taylor is promoting a "totalitarian ideology", why should it be ok for Poland to stay majority Polish and Catholic? Isn't that the opposite of the inclusiveness an open society should strive for, and kind of totalitarian itself?
    And if it's ok for Poland to push an initiative to ban an individual from the entire EU, why doesn't Poland show more solidarity with other EU countries and take its fair share of refugees? Pretty hypocritical to denounce racism with words, but not act upon it.

    Replies: @szopen, @utu, @Anonymous

    Pretty hypocritical to denounce racism with words, but not act upon it.

    Welcome to the real world 😀

    It’s really simple. Jared Taylor is no one. He has not political support. Banning him costs you nothing. Not banning might cost you something.

    Another thing is that it’s not necessarily “Government”. The administration is large and numerous, and it’s not like it got purged with the elections.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @szopen

    Again, if they merely had stated he's not welcome in Poland and refused him entry in/deported him from Poland, it wouldn't be a problem, just a wholly legitimate manifestation of Polish sovereignty.
    But validating the claim that any sort of pro-white activism, even explicitly non-violent one, is eeeeeeeevil and deserves to be crushed with extraordinary measures like bans from most of the European continent...well, if one thinks like that, there's not much of a basis for rejecting the coming African mass immigration.
    But then I suppose Polish right-wingers just assume they won't be affected anyway. They seem to have this idea that they can grab all the goodies from EU/NATO membership, but still maintain their homogenous Catholic national community, all the while preening themseles on their heroic past and looking down on the decadent West which undergoes rapid demographic transformation. Well, good luck with that.

  521. @szopen
    @DFH

    It's really a no-brainer. Banning some no-name from the west in return for some signalling points, while refusing to ban him = one more argument for the west and for the internal opposition to call current government "fascists". And here they can say "see, we banned this awful rascist... eee what was his name? Haredi Taylor? That's right! We are not racists!"

    Replies: @Epigon, @DFH, @reiner Tor

    Naturally, I agree with your explanation – I was too clumsy to press Agree instead of Disagree – there is no way to correct it that I am aware of,

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @Epigon

    You can simply change it after some time.

  522. German_reader says:
    @szopen
    @German_reader


    Pretty hypocritical to denounce racism with words, but not act upon it.
     
    Welcome to the real world :D

    It's really simple. Jared Taylor is no one. He has not political support. Banning him costs you nothing. Not banning might cost you something.

    Another thing is that it's not necessarily "Government". The administration is large and numerous, and it's not like it got purged with the elections.

    Replies: @German_reader

    Again, if they merely had stated he’s not welcome in Poland and refused him entry in/deported him from Poland, it wouldn’t be a problem, just a wholly legitimate manifestation of Polish sovereignty.
    But validating the claim that any sort of pro-white activism, even explicitly non-violent one, is eeeeeeeevil and deserves to be crushed with extraordinary measures like bans from most of the European continent…well, if one thinks like that, there’s not much of a basis for rejecting the coming African mass immigration.
    But then I suppose Polish right-wingers just assume they won’t be affected anyway. They seem to have this idea that they can grab all the goodies from EU/NATO membership, but still maintain their homogenous Catholic national community, all the while preening themseles on their heroic past and looking down on the decadent West which undergoes rapid demographic transformation. Well, good luck with that.

  523. @Epigon
    @szopen

    Naturally, I agree with your explanation - I was too clumsy to press Agree instead of Disagree - there is no way to correct it that I am aware of,

    Replies: @German_reader

    You can simply change it after some time.

  524. @szopen
    @DFH

    It's really a no-brainer. Banning some no-name from the west in return for some signalling points, while refusing to ban him = one more argument for the west and for the internal opposition to call current government "fascists". And here they can say "see, we banned this awful rascist... eee what was his name? Haredi Taylor? That's right! We are not racists!"

    Replies: @Epigon, @DFH, @reiner Tor

    I agree about the attempt to get signalling points, although obviously it’s totally ineffective. I don’t think they would have been blamed for allowing him in though; did anyone care about his visit last year?

  525. @German_reader
    @szopen

    If they had merely refused him entry to Poland, I don't think there would be reason to complain...but having him banned from the entire EU?
    And it's a mistake to think that such antiracist signaling will ever work and help to deflect criticism, it merely validates the existing narrative instead of reframing it.
    If Jared Taylor is promoting a "totalitarian ideology", why should it be ok for Poland to stay majority Polish and Catholic? Isn't that the opposite of the inclusiveness an open society should strive for, and kind of totalitarian itself?
    And if it's ok for Poland to push an initiative to ban an individual from the entire EU, why doesn't Poland show more solidarity with other EU countries and take its fair share of refugees? Pretty hypocritical to denounce racism with words, but not act upon it.

    Replies: @szopen, @utu, @Anonymous

    Jared Taylor exemplifies American racist provisionalism. The American concept of Whiteness was invented in the American South from where it metastasized to almost all America with the help of American oligarchy. Europe and Poland is not interested in American primitive racial categories. Europeans fortunately did not get infected with the American White pseudo-identity so far because they still have a rich cultural heritage from which they can draw the sense who they are. The Islamic thread to Europe of which you are so concerned will be easily contained once the political will will be regained. On the other hand Americanization is a of much greater threat to Europeans in the long run.

    David Irving had much more to offer to European self understanding before his livelihood and reputations was destroyed by Jewish Americans and his work could and still can lead to some healing of deep wounds left by the WWII. America and its Jared Taylors can only keep festering this wounds.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @utu


    The Islamic thread to Europe of which you are so concerned will be easily contained once the political will will be regained.
     
    It's not merely an Islamic threat (though that is a very important component), it's also about the demographic explosion of non-Islamic Africa (which is very hard to reject if you accept the standard "antiracist" narrative).
    And there's absolutely no sign of any political will to restrict immigration, instead the establishment in key European countries is doing everything it can to prepare the ground for a massive expansion of immigration.

    I agree with you though that Americanization is a very serious problem, and that European nationalists should be very wary of uncritically linking up with the American alt-right. The situations in Europe and the US aren't strictly comparable; and it bothers me how some European identitarians obsess more over the latest US race controversies than about what's going on in neighbouring European countries...it's the mirror image of America exporting its toxic anti-white race discourse.
    I don't see though how David Irving is supposed to play any positive role, rehabilitation of Hitler is unlikely to be a unifying force in Europe.

    Replies: @DFH, @utu, @utu

  526. @songbird
    @utu

    What would make him useful? If he were anti-ZOG? He went to Yale and probably had a lot of Jewish friends, but he's not a neocon, as far as I know.

    I think even Charles Murray is useful, although I consider him rather soft on immigration and the realities of race. Taylor runs a moderately useful website and conferences, anyway. Ideally, he'd be producing popular mass entertainment/propaganda. But since no one on the Right is doing that, it is probably not too easy to do outside the existing Leftist framework.

    Replies: @utu

    He is as much useful as some ornithologist who is concerned about some pond being overtaken by migrating Canadian gees to the detriment of the indigenous loons, who talks about it but mostly because he is in love with his own voice while really not giving a fuck about the loons and the outcome.

  527. Anonymous[151] • Disclaimer says:
    @German_reader
    @szopen

    If they had merely refused him entry to Poland, I don't think there would be reason to complain...but having him banned from the entire EU?
    And it's a mistake to think that such antiracist signaling will ever work and help to deflect criticism, it merely validates the existing narrative instead of reframing it.
    If Jared Taylor is promoting a "totalitarian ideology", why should it be ok for Poland to stay majority Polish and Catholic? Isn't that the opposite of the inclusiveness an open society should strive for, and kind of totalitarian itself?
    And if it's ok for Poland to push an initiative to ban an individual from the entire EU, why doesn't Poland show more solidarity with other EU countries and take its fair share of refugees? Pretty hypocritical to denounce racism with words, but not act upon it.

    Replies: @szopen, @utu, @Anonymous

    I doubt the Polish authorities are parsing Taylor’s message and ideology that closely. What’s more likely is they see an American associating with native far-right groups and getting attention for it, this gets them concerned, they spend 5 minutes Googling Taylor based on which they designate him some kind of crypto-Nazi and terrorist sympathizer (Dylann Roof), and he gets banned. It may have just been the judgment of some mid-level customs bureaucrat; I don’t think decisions like this get a particularly high degree of scrutiny (in the US they certainly don’t seem to).

  528. German_reader says:
    @utu
    @German_reader

    Jared Taylor exemplifies American racist provisionalism. The American concept of Whiteness was invented in the American South from where it metastasized to almost all America with the help of American oligarchy. Europe and Poland is not interested in American primitive racial categories. Europeans fortunately did not get infected with the American White pseudo-identity so far because they still have a rich cultural heritage from which they can draw the sense who they are. The Islamic thread to Europe of which you are so concerned will be easily contained once the political will will be regained. On the other hand Americanization is a of much greater threat to Europeans in the long run.

    David Irving had much more to offer to European self understanding before his livelihood and reputations was destroyed by Jewish Americans and his work could and still can lead to some healing of deep wounds left by the WWII. America and its Jared Taylors can only keep festering this wounds.

    Replies: @German_reader

    The Islamic thread to Europe of which you are so concerned will be easily contained once the political will will be regained.

    It’s not merely an Islamic threat (though that is a very important component), it’s also about the demographic explosion of non-Islamic Africa (which is very hard to reject if you accept the standard “antiracist” narrative).
    And there’s absolutely no sign of any political will to restrict immigration, instead the establishment in key European countries is doing everything it can to prepare the ground for a massive expansion of immigration.

    I agree with you though that Americanization is a very serious problem, and that European nationalists should be very wary of uncritically linking up with the American alt-right. The situations in Europe and the US aren’t strictly comparable; and it bothers me how some European identitarians obsess more over the latest US race controversies than about what’s going on in neighbouring European countries…it’s the mirror image of America exporting its toxic anti-white race discourse.
    I don’t see though how David Irving is supposed to play any positive role, rehabilitation of Hitler is unlikely to be a unifying force in Europe.

    • Replies: @DFH
    @German_reader


    I agree with you though that Americanization is a very serious problem, and that European nationalists should be very wary of uncritically linking up with the American alt-right.
     
    There are probably several thousand more important things that European nationalists should be considering than the effects of American white racial identity upon Europeans.

    Anyway, I don't really see what the particularly American problem is since his beloved Hitler actually did talk about the concept of Europe quite a bit

    https://hooktube.com/watch?v=_3n3YQnbW_s

    Replies: @German_reader

    , @utu
    @German_reader


    I don’t see though how David Irving is supposed to play any positive role, rehabilitation of Hitler is unlikely to be a unifying force in Europe.
     
    Not rehabilitation but normalization. Irving was a main stream historian respected by other historians with great reputation. Irving work could lead to sealing the artificial cracks created for propaganda purposes by Anglo-Americans Jews and Soviets in the fabric of European identity. Europe could heal and stop being being played against each other by the anti-European forces like Americans, Russians and Jews. And Irving was very successful in bringing human dimension to Germans and their rational. He wa able to bring human dimension to the real 'Nazis' and get away form the two dimensional Nazis that even intelligent and reasonable people like 'reiner Tor' got incurably inculcated with. He was very dangerous to the dominant two dimensional cartoon narrative. The Holocaust issue used against him was just a ruse. He fell for it. It was his mistake. A sin of pride most likely. He was too good and too successful at what he was doing in the legitimate historical research that was top notch so he had to be destroyed.

    Note that Israel-Russia rapprochement under auspices of Chabad Lubavichers in recent years (building monuments to Red Army soldiers in Israel and having Netanyahu at WWII Victory Parade in Moscow and building synagogue all over Russia) leads to a common historical politics by Israel and Russia, i.e, the glorification of the Red Army as the savior of the Jews and the World and at the same time cementing the Holocaust narrative. So the chances that the archives in Moscow concerning the WWII and the Holocaust being open and reevaluated are now nil.

    On the other thread I wrote a comment today that is related to this issue that I modified slightly.

    https://www.unz.com/ldinh/escape-from-america-budapest/#comment-3124092
    Orban seems to be a very skillful politician. He plays Israeli-American game of undermining the EU which offers some protection from adopting insane EU immigration policies. At the same time he is flexible enough to maintain a decent relationship with Russia. However once the US will make the reset with Russia which is inevitable, the protective umbrella extended over Hungary (and Poland) will be folded and Hungary and Poland will be left at mercy of the EU and Germany, which however may be a blessing in disguise if by then the EU will rectify some of its insane policies thanks to the new trends set by politicians like Salvini of Italy. For the politicians of the so called V4 countries it is a waiting game and navigating between the ‘anti-Marxist Zionism’ and the ‘anti-Zionist Marxism’ but there is no escape from the neoliberalism, i.e., the power of financial markets of oligarchy. Anyway all signs now indicate that both Kaczynski and Orban are Netanyahu's two bitches.

    NB: One should consider a possibility that the reason countries like Poland and Hungary were allowed to resist the Muslim invasion of 2015 was that they were being groomed to be a lifeboat for the exterritorial expansion of Israel into Europe (see Operation Shylock by Philip Roth for a fictional version of this scenario and Henry Kissinger’s 2012 utterance that Israel would not exist in 10 years).

    In an ideal case, in theory at least the EU is the only salvation for the Western Civilization in the long run. Only EU could stand up to the American-Jewish-Russian neoliberal oligarchy. Neither America nor Russia can control or contain this oligarchy as it was created by Judeo-Capitalism and Judeo-Bolshevism in their countries. Europe can resist Islam very easily however to save the Western Civilization it must resist Americanization which poses much greater threat and this threat will be greater when America will join its forces with Russia just like they did in the WWII when the two non-European powers conquered and occupied Europe.
     
    If Europe will be saved it will be by Germany, France and Italy and the V4 countries onece they shake off false promises of USrael protection against the imaginary thread of Russia and false protection against the Islamic immigration that is engineered by Israel anyway.

    The bottom line is that the enemy of Europe is the US and Israel. The anti-Russian histeria an paranoia is to split Russia from Europe and draw it eventually to American sphere of influenc against Europe and China.

    Replies: @German_reader

    , @utu
    @German_reader

    Two months ago I suggest the following angle for Germans as part of of populist movement (in search of acceptable to Germans enem as each populist movement must have an enemy. The enemy is America and Americanization.)


    https://www.unz.com/ldinh/heart-of-darkness-germany/#comment-3040960

    Europeans and Germans especially should use anti-American sentiments in their fight against the immigration. There is no laws against being anti-American in Germany yet.


    Why America is so fucked up? Because they have no social cohesion and solidarity.
     

    Why Americans are so easily manipulated by their media and neoliberal oligarchy. Because they have low social cohesion and solidarity as a country of immigrants.
     

    Why do the powers that be want immigrants and minorities? Because ruling people is so much easier when you can divide them.
     

    Why do the powers that be love immigrants? Because they like cheap labor that will replace you.
     

    We don’t want to become dysfunctional America!
     

    Save Europe from becoming America. There is still time. Stop immigration now.
     
    Make the message not about Germany being German but about Germany and Europe not becoming America.

    You can stop immigration only if you attract more people to your movement. Your message must be palatable and attractive to them. You can’t turn them off with racism because they were so strongly conditioned against it that they behave like Pavlovian dogs when they hear anything remotely linked to racism or anti-semitism.

    To attract people from the left to your side you must make your cause about going against the system, against the capitalism, against the neoliberalism and against the economic injustice. Do not concentrate on immigrants how stupid, ugly and bad they are but on the powers that bring them in. Do not fall into the trap of stupid American alt-right that profess IQism and HBDism by people like Sailer, Karlin, Derbyshire on this site. They actually might be the useful idiots or the fifth column of the neoliberal system.
     

    Replies: @Anonymous

  529. @German_reader
    @utu


    The Islamic thread to Europe of which you are so concerned will be easily contained once the political will will be regained.
     
    It's not merely an Islamic threat (though that is a very important component), it's also about the demographic explosion of non-Islamic Africa (which is very hard to reject if you accept the standard "antiracist" narrative).
    And there's absolutely no sign of any political will to restrict immigration, instead the establishment in key European countries is doing everything it can to prepare the ground for a massive expansion of immigration.

    I agree with you though that Americanization is a very serious problem, and that European nationalists should be very wary of uncritically linking up with the American alt-right. The situations in Europe and the US aren't strictly comparable; and it bothers me how some European identitarians obsess more over the latest US race controversies than about what's going on in neighbouring European countries...it's the mirror image of America exporting its toxic anti-white race discourse.
    I don't see though how David Irving is supposed to play any positive role, rehabilitation of Hitler is unlikely to be a unifying force in Europe.

    Replies: @DFH, @utu, @utu

    I agree with you though that Americanization is a very serious problem, and that European nationalists should be very wary of uncritically linking up with the American alt-right.

    There are probably several thousand more important things that European nationalists should be considering than the effects of American white racial identity upon Europeans.

    Anyway, I don’t really see what the particularly American problem is since his beloved Hitler actually did talk about the concept of Europe quite a bit

    https://hooktube.com/watch?v=_3n3YQnbW_s

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @DFH


    There are probably several thousand more important things that European nationalists should be considering than the effects of American white racial identity upon Europeans.
     
    In general American influence is absolutely pernicious, something like that anti-"blackface" protest in Paris mentioned above is clearly an import of American racial discourse (as is the denigration of "old white men" which is increasingly common in European media), like so much else of "antiracism".
    Europeans adopting the talking points of US racialist right-wingers is the flipside of that...understandable, but imo still problematic since it reinforces the dependence on American modes of thought.

    And no offense, but in general I really have to wonder about your reflexive defense of the US, given your strong anti-black and antisemitic views. The US is an extremely pro-black and pro-Jewish country, and it seems most American white gentiles are fine with that.

    btw, I can't watch the video you linked to...banned in Germany, lol.

    Replies: @DFH, @Hyperborean

  530. German_reader says:
    @DFH
    @German_reader


    I agree with you though that Americanization is a very serious problem, and that European nationalists should be very wary of uncritically linking up with the American alt-right.
     
    There are probably several thousand more important things that European nationalists should be considering than the effects of American white racial identity upon Europeans.

    Anyway, I don't really see what the particularly American problem is since his beloved Hitler actually did talk about the concept of Europe quite a bit

    https://hooktube.com/watch?v=_3n3YQnbW_s

    Replies: @German_reader

    There are probably several thousand more important things that European nationalists should be considering than the effects of American white racial identity upon Europeans.

    In general American influence is absolutely pernicious, something like that anti-“blackface” protest in Paris mentioned above is clearly an import of American racial discourse (as is the denigration of “old white men” which is increasingly common in European media), like so much else of “antiracism”.
    Europeans adopting the talking points of US racialist right-wingers is the flipside of that…understandable, but imo still problematic since it reinforces the dependence on American modes of thought.

    And no offense, but in general I really have to wonder about your reflexive defense of the US, given your strong anti-black and antisemitic views. The US is an extremely pro-black and pro-Jewish country, and it seems most American white gentiles are fine with that.

    btw, I can’t watch the video you linked to…banned in Germany, lol.

    • Replies: @DFH
    @German_reader


    In general American influence is absolutely pernicious, something like that anti-“blackface” protest in Paris mentioned above is clearly an import of American racial discourse (as is the denigration of “old white men” which is increasingly common in European media), like so much else of “antiracism”.

     

    It's the very fact that everyone in Western Europe is indoctrinated about the struggles of American blacks which means that they need the counter narrative

    The US is an extremely pro-black and pro-Jewish country, and it seems most American white gentiles are fine with that.
     
    Well American white nationalists obviously aren't and most Western Europeans are even more pro-black

    Replies: @German_reader

    , @Hyperborean
    @German_reader


    Europeans adopting the talking points of US racialist right-wingers is the flipside of that…understandable, but imo still problematic since it reinforces the dependence on American modes of thought.
     
    While race is of course important, I also find this tendency to think in terms of continental races and sideline ethnicity unsettling.

    I have seen cases of both American white nationalists (calling the Baltic countries of Estonia and Latvia "homogeneous" because there are no non-whites there) and liberals (complaining that "the white kid" was carrying the Soviet banner in an USSR textbook praising inter-ethnic coexistence) doing this.

    I find it disturbing because of Europeans current-day mental dependence means that Europe risks simply becoming an overseas extension of the USA, and even if America was not its present mess and was instead Karlin’s idealised 1950's America I would still find it unsettling to adopt many dangerous assumptions that Americans have and had about their identity even in the 19th century.*

    *As an example, Henry Ford, of The International Jew infamy, used to have "English Schools" at his factories where people would be encouraged to become Americans and at the "graduation" they would go into a building wearing traditional dress and come out of the building wearing American clothes.

    Replies: @David Davenport, @songbird

  531. @German_reader
    @utu


    The Islamic thread to Europe of which you are so concerned will be easily contained once the political will will be regained.
     
    It's not merely an Islamic threat (though that is a very important component), it's also about the demographic explosion of non-Islamic Africa (which is very hard to reject if you accept the standard "antiracist" narrative).
    And there's absolutely no sign of any political will to restrict immigration, instead the establishment in key European countries is doing everything it can to prepare the ground for a massive expansion of immigration.

    I agree with you though that Americanization is a very serious problem, and that European nationalists should be very wary of uncritically linking up with the American alt-right. The situations in Europe and the US aren't strictly comparable; and it bothers me how some European identitarians obsess more over the latest US race controversies than about what's going on in neighbouring European countries...it's the mirror image of America exporting its toxic anti-white race discourse.
    I don't see though how David Irving is supposed to play any positive role, rehabilitation of Hitler is unlikely to be a unifying force in Europe.

    Replies: @DFH, @utu, @utu

    I don’t see though how David Irving is supposed to play any positive role, rehabilitation of Hitler is unlikely to be a unifying force in Europe.

    Not rehabilitation but normalization. Irving was a main stream historian respected by other historians with great reputation. Irving work could lead to sealing the artificial cracks created for propaganda purposes by Anglo-Americans Jews and Soviets in the fabric of European identity. Europe could heal and stop being being played against each other by the anti-European forces like Americans, Russians and Jews. And Irving was very successful in bringing human dimension to Germans and their rational. He wa able to bring human dimension to the real ‘Nazis’ and get away form the two dimensional Nazis that even intelligent and reasonable people like ‘reiner Tor’ got incurably inculcated with. He was very dangerous to the dominant two dimensional cartoon narrative. The Holocaust issue used against him was just a ruse. He fell for it. It was his mistake. A sin of pride most likely. He was too good and too successful at what he was doing in the legitimate historical research that was top notch so he had to be destroyed.

    Note that Israel-Russia rapprochement under auspices of Chabad Lubavichers in recent years (building monuments to Red Army soldiers in Israel and having Netanyahu at WWII Victory Parade in Moscow and building synagogue all over Russia) leads to a common historical politics by Israel and Russia, i.e, the glorification of the Red Army as the savior of the Jews and the World and at the same time cementing the Holocaust narrative. So the chances that the archives in Moscow concerning the WWII and the Holocaust being open and reevaluated are now nil.

    On the other thread I wrote a comment today that is related to this issue that I modified slightly.

    https://www.unz.com/ldinh/escape-from-america-budapest/#comment-3124092
    Orban seems to be a very skillful politician. He plays Israeli-American game of undermining the EU which offers some protection from adopting insane EU immigration policies. At the same time he is flexible enough to maintain a decent relationship with Russia. However once the US will make the reset with Russia which is inevitable, the protective umbrella extended over Hungary (and Poland) will be folded and Hungary and Poland will be left at mercy of the EU and Germany, which however may be a blessing in disguise if by then the EU will rectify some of its insane policies thanks to the new trends set by politicians like Salvini of Italy. For the politicians of the so called V4 countries it is a waiting game and navigating between the ‘anti-Marxist Zionism’ and the ‘anti-Zionist Marxism’ but there is no escape from the neoliberalism, i.e., the power of financial markets of oligarchy. Anyway all signs now indicate that both Kaczynski and Orban are Netanyahu’s two bitches.

    NB: One should consider a possibility that the reason countries like Poland and Hungary were allowed to resist the Muslim invasion of 2015 was that they were being groomed to be a lifeboat for the exterritorial expansion of Israel into Europe (see Operation Shylock by Philip Roth for a fictional version of this scenario and Henry Kissinger’s 2012 utterance that Israel would not exist in 10 years).

    In an ideal case, in theory at least the EU is the only salvation for the Western Civilization in the long run. Only EU could stand up to the American-Jewish-Russian neoliberal oligarchy. Neither America nor Russia can control or contain this oligarchy as it was created by Judeo-Capitalism and Judeo-Bolshevism in their countries. Europe can resist Islam very easily however to save the Western Civilization it must resist Americanization which poses much greater threat and this threat will be greater when America will join its forces with Russia just like they did in the WWII when the two non-European powers conquered and occupied Europe.

    If Europe will be saved it will be by Germany, France and Italy and the V4 countries onece they shake off false promises of USrael protection against the imaginary thread of Russia and false protection against the Islamic immigration that is engineered by Israel anyway.

    The bottom line is that the enemy of Europe is the US and Israel. The anti-Russian histeria an paranoia is to split Russia from Europe and draw it eventually to American sphere of influenc against Europe and China.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @utu


    Irving work could lead to sealing the artificial cracks created for propaganda purposes by Anglo-Americans Jews and Soviets in the fabric of European identity.
     
    That's an illusion. The resentment against Germany in most European countries isn't based just on American, Soviet or Jewish propaganda. It has a factual basis in German actions during WW2, which in many cases were of an undeniably criminal nature. No amount of revisionism (unless it's just propaganda itself) will ever make the deliberate mass killings of Polish elites or the massacres of civilians during anti-partisan operations look good, nor are Heydrich's musings about the need to deport half of all Czechs ever likely to inspire much sympathy in the Czech republic. This isn't necessarily linked to pro-American or pro-Jewish attitudes either. Greeks are highly anti-American (and supposedly also quite antisemitic, if one can trust the polls commissioned by Jewish organizations), but they still resent Germany because of the massacres and the cultural vandalism during the German occupation.
    It's also convenient for everybody else to lay sole responsibility for everything that went wrong during the 1914-1945 era on Germany (the issue isn't limited to WW2, Germany's WW1 war guilt is still an article of faith for many). You can see this even with Italians who get to claim that they were always just brava gente, fundamentally decent folk (even when they dropped mustard gas on Ethiopians), unlike the uniquely evil Teutons (and who find a ready audience for that view, as demonstrated by AK's "Mussolini did nothing wrong" article). German evil is a great foil for one's own humanity or heroism.
    And there is also zero prospect of revisionism ever gaining ground in Germany itself (which is clearly in a terminal phase as a nation and has devolved into complete infantilism). A few years ago, when I still watched television, I watched some stupid talk show. One of the guests was Serdar Somuncu, a Turkish-born "comedian" who has made a career of lecturing Germans about the Nazi past (something to which he has no personal connection, since his kind wasn't here back then). Somuncu suggested Germans shouldn't mourn for German WW2 dead at all, but only for the victims of Nazi crimes. No one objected, apparently everyone agreed. That kind of attitude is typical of today's Germany.

    Replies: @utu, @Epigon

  532. @German_reader
    @utu


    The Islamic thread to Europe of which you are so concerned will be easily contained once the political will will be regained.
     
    It's not merely an Islamic threat (though that is a very important component), it's also about the demographic explosion of non-Islamic Africa (which is very hard to reject if you accept the standard "antiracist" narrative).
    And there's absolutely no sign of any political will to restrict immigration, instead the establishment in key European countries is doing everything it can to prepare the ground for a massive expansion of immigration.

    I agree with you though that Americanization is a very serious problem, and that European nationalists should be very wary of uncritically linking up with the American alt-right. The situations in Europe and the US aren't strictly comparable; and it bothers me how some European identitarians obsess more over the latest US race controversies than about what's going on in neighbouring European countries...it's the mirror image of America exporting its toxic anti-white race discourse.
    I don't see though how David Irving is supposed to play any positive role, rehabilitation of Hitler is unlikely to be a unifying force in Europe.

    Replies: @DFH, @utu, @utu

    Two months ago I suggest the following angle for Germans as part of of populist movement (in search of acceptable to Germans enem as each populist movement must have an enemy. The enemy is America and Americanization.)

    https://www.unz.com/ldinh/heart-of-darkness-germany/#comment-3040960

    Europeans and Germans especially should use anti-American sentiments in their fight against the immigration. There is no laws against being anti-American in Germany yet.

    Why America is so fucked up? Because they have no social cohesion and solidarity.

    Why Americans are so easily manipulated by their media and neoliberal oligarchy. Because they have low social cohesion and solidarity as a country of immigrants.

    Why do the powers that be want immigrants and minorities? Because ruling people is so much easier when you can divide them.

    Why do the powers that be love immigrants? Because they like cheap labor that will replace you.

    We don’t want to become dysfunctional America!

    Save Europe from becoming America. There is still time. Stop immigration now.

    Make the message not about Germany being German but about Germany and Europe not becoming America.

    You can stop immigration only if you attract more people to your movement. Your message must be palatable and attractive to them. You can’t turn them off with racism because they were so strongly conditioned against it that they behave like Pavlovian dogs when they hear anything remotely linked to racism or anti-semitism.

    To attract people from the left to your side you must make your cause about going against the system, against the capitalism, against the neoliberalism and against the economic injustice. Do not concentrate on immigrants how stupid, ugly and bad they are but on the powers that bring them in. Do not fall into the trap of stupid American alt-right that profess IQism and HBDism by people like Sailer, Karlin, Derbyshire on this site. They actually might be the useful idiots or the fifth column of the neoliberal system.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    @utu

    Anti-Americanism is difficult to exploit as a political force, especially in Europe, for a few reasons:

    -Historical association of anti-Americanism with fringe far-right and far-left movements which are generally regarded as cranky, ineffectual failures

    -America is not a remote, abstract entity; almost everybody likes at least some American stuff (especially young people), which can induce cognitive dissonance

    -Although America is in some respects dysfunctional, it is still in many other aspects a highly functional and even aspirational society. If you cite American diversity as a weakness the opposition can easily point to e.g. Silicon Valley (since all countries would like to have something like Silicon Valley within their borders)

    Also, while American racial categories have historically not had much applicability to the European context, I don't think this is the case anymore today: as long as you have relative freedom of movement between European states (which will be the case for the foreseeable future), combined with substantial MENA presence in those states, people are going to make distinctions between "white" (European) and "non-white," if only on a subconscious level

    Replies: @utu

  533. Anonymous[151] • Disclaimer says:
    @utu
    @German_reader

    Two months ago I suggest the following angle for Germans as part of of populist movement (in search of acceptable to Germans enem as each populist movement must have an enemy. The enemy is America and Americanization.)


    https://www.unz.com/ldinh/heart-of-darkness-germany/#comment-3040960

    Europeans and Germans especially should use anti-American sentiments in their fight against the immigration. There is no laws against being anti-American in Germany yet.


    Why America is so fucked up? Because they have no social cohesion and solidarity.
     

    Why Americans are so easily manipulated by their media and neoliberal oligarchy. Because they have low social cohesion and solidarity as a country of immigrants.
     

    Why do the powers that be want immigrants and minorities? Because ruling people is so much easier when you can divide them.
     

    Why do the powers that be love immigrants? Because they like cheap labor that will replace you.
     

    We don’t want to become dysfunctional America!
     

    Save Europe from becoming America. There is still time. Stop immigration now.
     
    Make the message not about Germany being German but about Germany and Europe not becoming America.

    You can stop immigration only if you attract more people to your movement. Your message must be palatable and attractive to them. You can’t turn them off with racism because they were so strongly conditioned against it that they behave like Pavlovian dogs when they hear anything remotely linked to racism or anti-semitism.

    To attract people from the left to your side you must make your cause about going against the system, against the capitalism, against the neoliberalism and against the economic injustice. Do not concentrate on immigrants how stupid, ugly and bad they are but on the powers that bring them in. Do not fall into the trap of stupid American alt-right that profess IQism and HBDism by people like Sailer, Karlin, Derbyshire on this site. They actually might be the useful idiots or the fifth column of the neoliberal system.
     

    Replies: @Anonymous

    Anti-Americanism is difficult to exploit as a political force, especially in Europe, for a few reasons:

    -Historical association of anti-Americanism with fringe far-right and far-left movements which are generally regarded as cranky, ineffectual failures

    -America is not a remote, abstract entity; almost everybody likes at least some American stuff (especially young people), which can induce cognitive dissonance

    -Although America is in some respects dysfunctional, it is still in many other aspects a highly functional and even aspirational society. If you cite American diversity as a weakness the opposition can easily point to e.g. Silicon Valley (since all countries would like to have something like Silicon Valley within their borders)

    Also, while American racial categories have historically not had much applicability to the European context, I don’t think this is the case anymore today: as long as you have relative freedom of movement between European states (which will be the case for the foreseeable future), combined with substantial MENA presence in those states, people are going to make distinctions between “white” (European) and “non-white,” if only on a subconscious level

    • Replies: @utu
    @Anonymous

    You are bringing up good objections but it all can be fixed. You hire Cambridge Analytica or a similar outfit and they will be able to come up with phrases that will navigate around the apparent contradictions and created a coherent message. I have outlined the general strategy that is the only one that can work. It is the job of tacticians and technicians to implement it.

  534. @German_reader
    @DFH


    There are probably several thousand more important things that European nationalists should be considering than the effects of American white racial identity upon Europeans.
     
    In general American influence is absolutely pernicious, something like that anti-"blackface" protest in Paris mentioned above is clearly an import of American racial discourse (as is the denigration of "old white men" which is increasingly common in European media), like so much else of "antiracism".
    Europeans adopting the talking points of US racialist right-wingers is the flipside of that...understandable, but imo still problematic since it reinforces the dependence on American modes of thought.

    And no offense, but in general I really have to wonder about your reflexive defense of the US, given your strong anti-black and antisemitic views. The US is an extremely pro-black and pro-Jewish country, and it seems most American white gentiles are fine with that.

    btw, I can't watch the video you linked to...banned in Germany, lol.

    Replies: @DFH, @Hyperborean

    In general American influence is absolutely pernicious, something like that anti-“blackface” protest in Paris mentioned above is clearly an import of American racial discourse (as is the denigration of “old white men” which is increasingly common in European media), like so much else of “antiracism”.

    It’s the very fact that everyone in Western Europe is indoctrinated about the struggles of American blacks which means that they need the counter narrative

    The US is an extremely pro-black and pro-Jewish country, and it seems most American white gentiles are fine with that.

    Well American white nationalists obviously aren’t and most Western Europeans are even more pro-black

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @DFH


    Well American white nationalists obviously aren’t and most Western Europeans are even more pro-black
     
    American white nationalists are an insignificant fringe movement and likely to always remain so.
    Mainstream white right-wingers in the US have integrated the civil rights movement into their narrative of why the US is so wonderful and exceptional.
  535. German_reader says:
    @utu
    @German_reader


    I don’t see though how David Irving is supposed to play any positive role, rehabilitation of Hitler is unlikely to be a unifying force in Europe.
     
    Not rehabilitation but normalization. Irving was a main stream historian respected by other historians with great reputation. Irving work could lead to sealing the artificial cracks created for propaganda purposes by Anglo-Americans Jews and Soviets in the fabric of European identity. Europe could heal and stop being being played against each other by the anti-European forces like Americans, Russians and Jews. And Irving was very successful in bringing human dimension to Germans and their rational. He wa able to bring human dimension to the real 'Nazis' and get away form the two dimensional Nazis that even intelligent and reasonable people like 'reiner Tor' got incurably inculcated with. He was very dangerous to the dominant two dimensional cartoon narrative. The Holocaust issue used against him was just a ruse. He fell for it. It was his mistake. A sin of pride most likely. He was too good and too successful at what he was doing in the legitimate historical research that was top notch so he had to be destroyed.

    Note that Israel-Russia rapprochement under auspices of Chabad Lubavichers in recent years (building monuments to Red Army soldiers in Israel and having Netanyahu at WWII Victory Parade in Moscow and building synagogue all over Russia) leads to a common historical politics by Israel and Russia, i.e, the glorification of the Red Army as the savior of the Jews and the World and at the same time cementing the Holocaust narrative. So the chances that the archives in Moscow concerning the WWII and the Holocaust being open and reevaluated are now nil.

    On the other thread I wrote a comment today that is related to this issue that I modified slightly.

    https://www.unz.com/ldinh/escape-from-america-budapest/#comment-3124092
    Orban seems to be a very skillful politician. He plays Israeli-American game of undermining the EU which offers some protection from adopting insane EU immigration policies. At the same time he is flexible enough to maintain a decent relationship with Russia. However once the US will make the reset with Russia which is inevitable, the protective umbrella extended over Hungary (and Poland) will be folded and Hungary and Poland will be left at mercy of the EU and Germany, which however may be a blessing in disguise if by then the EU will rectify some of its insane policies thanks to the new trends set by politicians like Salvini of Italy. For the politicians of the so called V4 countries it is a waiting game and navigating between the ‘anti-Marxist Zionism’ and the ‘anti-Zionist Marxism’ but there is no escape from the neoliberalism, i.e., the power of financial markets of oligarchy. Anyway all signs now indicate that both Kaczynski and Orban are Netanyahu's two bitches.

    NB: One should consider a possibility that the reason countries like Poland and Hungary were allowed to resist the Muslim invasion of 2015 was that they were being groomed to be a lifeboat for the exterritorial expansion of Israel into Europe (see Operation Shylock by Philip Roth for a fictional version of this scenario and Henry Kissinger’s 2012 utterance that Israel would not exist in 10 years).

    In an ideal case, in theory at least the EU is the only salvation for the Western Civilization in the long run. Only EU could stand up to the American-Jewish-Russian neoliberal oligarchy. Neither America nor Russia can control or contain this oligarchy as it was created by Judeo-Capitalism and Judeo-Bolshevism in their countries. Europe can resist Islam very easily however to save the Western Civilization it must resist Americanization which poses much greater threat and this threat will be greater when America will join its forces with Russia just like they did in the WWII when the two non-European powers conquered and occupied Europe.
     
    If Europe will be saved it will be by Germany, France and Italy and the V4 countries onece they shake off false promises of USrael protection against the imaginary thread of Russia and false protection against the Islamic immigration that is engineered by Israel anyway.

    The bottom line is that the enemy of Europe is the US and Israel. The anti-Russian histeria an paranoia is to split Russia from Europe and draw it eventually to American sphere of influenc against Europe and China.

    Replies: @German_reader

    Irving work could lead to sealing the artificial cracks created for propaganda purposes by Anglo-Americans Jews and Soviets in the fabric of European identity.

    That’s an illusion. The resentment against Germany in most European countries isn’t based just on American, Soviet or Jewish propaganda. It has a factual basis in German actions during WW2, which in many cases were of an undeniably criminal nature. No amount of revisionism (unless it’s just propaganda itself) will ever make the deliberate mass killings of Polish elites or the massacres of civilians during anti-partisan operations look good, nor are Heydrich’s musings about the need to deport half of all Czechs ever likely to inspire much sympathy in the Czech republic. This isn’t necessarily linked to pro-American or pro-Jewish attitudes either. Greeks are highly anti-American (and supposedly also quite antisemitic, if one can trust the polls commissioned by Jewish organizations), but they still resent Germany because of the massacres and the cultural vandalism during the German occupation.
    It’s also convenient for everybody else to lay sole responsibility for everything that went wrong during the 1914-1945 era on Germany (the issue isn’t limited to WW2, Germany’s WW1 war guilt is still an article of faith for many). You can see this even with Italians who get to claim that they were always just brava gente, fundamentally decent folk (even when they dropped mustard gas on Ethiopians), unlike the uniquely evil Teutons (and who find a ready audience for that view, as demonstrated by AK’s “Mussolini did nothing wrong” article). German evil is a great foil for one’s own humanity or heroism.
    And there is also zero prospect of revisionism ever gaining ground in Germany itself (which is clearly in a terminal phase as a nation and has devolved into complete infantilism). A few years ago, when I still watched television, I watched some stupid talk show. One of the guests was Serdar Somuncu, a Turkish-born “comedian” who has made a career of lecturing Germans about the Nazi past (something to which he has no personal connection, since his kind wasn’t here back then). Somuncu suggested Germans shouldn’t mourn for German WW2 dead at all, but only for the victims of Nazi crimes. No one objected, apparently everyone agreed. That kind of attitude is typical of today’s Germany.

    • Replies: @utu
    @German_reader

    What you describe is what was constructed long after the War and it got worse with the passage of time when the 2 dimensional Nazis cartoons for 'reiner Tor' were being constructed ad infinitum and the real 'Nazis' were lost. You totally underestimate or even are unaware of European artistic and religious elites who were setting a different tone after the war, the tone of reconciliation and of forgiveness which are essential part of our Western Civilization. People want reconciliation and they want to forgive but it becomes difficult when the fire of hate is being stoked. Who did supply he fuel for this fire? Who kept it going?

    You probably are not aware of the letter of Polish Bishops written to their German counterparts already in 1965 that began with the words "We forgive and ask for forgiveness". You probably are not familiar with Polish or Russian and even American cinematography created in the first 20 years after the war. They were not blood thirsty and vengeance was not emphasized. People were still conditioned by the ethos of European education that vengeance was bad and not just Christians bad even for the ones who underwent the indoctrination by the godless Komsomol like Dmitri or Karlin parents. You have never heard of 1961 Polish movie "Tonight a City Will Die" about the annihilation of Dresden. Here it is in its Russian version:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hS2wZfFv94k

    Kurt Vonnegut in 1969 wrote the most powerful and very beautiful anti-war novel "Slaughterhouse-Five, or The Children's Crusade: A Duty-Dance with Death" centered on the destruction of Dresden. Where are the other anti-war novels written after the WWII while so many were written after the WWI? Why there are so few? After David Irving wrote The Destruction of Dresden in 1963 he was targeted by some Jewish "burglar" outfit.

    Then came the Six-Day War in 1967 and everything has changed. The Holocaust became the most important propaganda project. It all became about not forgiving and about the vengeance. This was all written using the Jewish cultural code not the European Christian code. Young generations of future 'reined Tors" are now conditioned by Tarantino's "Inglourious Basterds." I am sure they learn history and humanity form it.

    Post(trans)-humans like A. Karlin produce texts were they rationally justify mass rapes of German women and top it off with casual remarks of how great the bombings of Hiroshima and German cities were.

    Probably I am getting too old. I getting too tired to explain what people from your generation of post-humans, the Mowglis raised by the video games are unable to get.

    Replies: @German_reader, @songbird, @reiner Tor

    , @Epigon
    @German_reader


    Greeks are highly anti-American (and supposedly also quite antisemitic, if one can trust the polls commissioned by Jewish organizations)
     
    Greeks are a joke of a nation. An Orthodox Christian puppet of Anglican English, and later on, atlanticist Americans. Since WW2, every single Greek government was an Atlanticist puppet.
    Greek Orthodox Church is a tool, and divided inside - their nominal hierarchs are despised by monks and priests.
    They have football Ultras that are unironically far left.

    They go for a riot, anti-austerity, anti-neoliberalism and all that jazz, and then elect a complete American stooge and Soros plant - “leftist” Tsipras, and that obnoxious ‘tard Varoufakis, who immediately do exactly what people were protesting against - and no problem! Well, of course, because that whole affair was American orchestrated to weaken EU, Germany and German banks, not expression of Greek sovereignity and popular will. Macedonia issue springs up - people protest, 70% of public against - government decides in favour of it - no problem. In Macedonia, referendum fails - again, atlanticists couldn’t care less.

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson, @utu

  536. German_reader says:
    @DFH
    @German_reader


    In general American influence is absolutely pernicious, something like that anti-“blackface” protest in Paris mentioned above is clearly an import of American racial discourse (as is the denigration of “old white men” which is increasingly common in European media), like so much else of “antiracism”.

     

    It's the very fact that everyone in Western Europe is indoctrinated about the struggles of American blacks which means that they need the counter narrative

    The US is an extremely pro-black and pro-Jewish country, and it seems most American white gentiles are fine with that.
     
    Well American white nationalists obviously aren't and most Western Europeans are even more pro-black

    Replies: @German_reader

    Well American white nationalists obviously aren’t and most Western Europeans are even more pro-black

    American white nationalists are an insignificant fringe movement and likely to always remain so.
    Mainstream white right-wingers in the US have integrated the civil rights movement into their narrative of why the US is so wonderful and exceptional.

  537. German_reader says:

    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/28/magazine/battle-over-bds-israel-palestinians-antisemitism.html

    [MORE]

    Netanyahu and his supporters also argue that the Israeli-Palestinian conflict long predates the occupation, and that Palestinian groups have always opposed the establishment or existence of a Jewish state in Palestine. “The issue is not land; the issue is not statehood,” says Morton A. Klein, the president of the Zionist Organization of America, a once-marginal pro-Israel group that has close ties with the Trump administration. “The Palestinians don’t want peace no matter what.” Referring to the years of the major partition proposals and Israeli-Palestinian negotiations, he added, “Because the Palestinians were offered a state in ’37 and ’47, and they said no. In 2000, 2001, 2008, they said no.”

    […]

    To bolster the argument that the Palestinian struggle is a fight against racism, B.D.S. leaders have highlighted the support for Jewish ethno-nationalism by far-right European politicians like President Viktor Orban of Hungary, alt-right figures like Steve Bannon and white supremacists like Richard Spencer, an organizer of the 2017 Unite the Right rally in Charlottesville, Va. That year, Spencer told an Israeli television interviewer: “You could say that I am a white Zionist in the sense that I care about my people. I want us to have a secure homeland that’s for us and ourselves, just like you want a secure homeland in Israel.”

    Klein and other prominent pro-Israel figures reject any suggestion of commonality with Spencer. Klein told me that “I don’t see how you can love Israel, sincerely love Israel, and hate Jews.” Spencer, he went on, had “cleverly found a way he can use Israel to make his position on a white-only state sound legitimate.” I asked Klein why he believed it was “utterly racist and despicable,” as he put it, for Spencer to promote a state for only one ethnic group but not racist for Israel to do so. “Israel is a unique situation,” he said. “This is really a Jewish state given to us by God.” He added, “God did not create a state for white people or for black people.” Senator Charles Schumer, the Democratic minority leader, similarly told the Aipac conference in 2018: “Of course, we say it’s our land, the Torah says it, but they don’t believe in the Torah. So that’s the reason there is not peace.”

    According to a 2013 Pew survey, 44 percent of Americans and 40 percent of American Jews believe that Israel was given to the Jewish people by God.

  538. @German_reader
    @DFH


    There are probably several thousand more important things that European nationalists should be considering than the effects of American white racial identity upon Europeans.
     
    In general American influence is absolutely pernicious, something like that anti-"blackface" protest in Paris mentioned above is clearly an import of American racial discourse (as is the denigration of "old white men" which is increasingly common in European media), like so much else of "antiracism".
    Europeans adopting the talking points of US racialist right-wingers is the flipside of that...understandable, but imo still problematic since it reinforces the dependence on American modes of thought.

    And no offense, but in general I really have to wonder about your reflexive defense of the US, given your strong anti-black and antisemitic views. The US is an extremely pro-black and pro-Jewish country, and it seems most American white gentiles are fine with that.

    btw, I can't watch the video you linked to...banned in Germany, lol.

    Replies: @DFH, @Hyperborean

    Europeans adopting the talking points of US racialist right-wingers is the flipside of that…understandable, but imo still problematic since it reinforces the dependence on American modes of thought.

    While race is of course important, I also find this tendency to think in terms of continental races and sideline ethnicity unsettling.

    I have seen cases of both American white nationalists (calling the Baltic countries of Estonia and Latvia “homogeneous” because there are no non-whites there) and liberals (complaining that “the white kid” was carrying the Soviet banner in an USSR textbook praising inter-ethnic coexistence) doing this.

    I find it disturbing because of Europeans current-day mental dependence means that Europe risks simply becoming an overseas extension of the USA, and even if America was not its present mess and was instead Karlin’s idealised 1950’s America I would still find it unsettling to adopt many dangerous assumptions that Americans have and had about their identity even in the 19th century.*

    *As an example, Henry Ford, of The International Jew infamy, used to have “English Schools” at his factories where people would be encouraged to become Americans and at the “graduation” they would go into a building wearing traditional dress and come out of the building wearing American clothes.

    • Agree: German_reader
    • Replies: @David Davenport
    @Hyperborean

    * I would still find it unsettling to adopt many dangerous assumptions that Americans have and had about their identity even in the 19th century.*.

    What are these dangerous assumptions of which you speak? Please elucidate.

    Replies: @Hyperborean

    , @songbird
    @Hyperborean

    Ford seems to have been surprisingly naive about blacks. At least, I have never heard of him being critical of them and I bet a lot of people were motivated to search, since his attitude towards blacks is presented as a defense of his character, which has been damaged and defamed to the point where he is thought of as being a Nazi. (Curious similarly to Walt Disney.)

    Perhaps, the first blacks who moved to Detroit were the smarter and more capable ones, but still it would have been impossible not to make observations. Blacks in the North were problematic, even when they were a small population, judging by historical newspapers - which often presented their criminal cases as entertainment pieces.

    Maybe, it was in part because he was born a hick, but Ford could be heavily implicated in the destruction of Detroit. Sort of interesting because he saw cities as rotting dens of corruption and predicted that industry would move into rural areas.

    Another interesting idea he had was that planes would revolutionize the labor market and teams of men would be flown where they were needed, crisscrossing the country. If he had only known that the planes would be used to bring in hordes of unemployable hostile men who were looking to settle in the West and that many Jews would be cheerleading the process.

  539. Perhaps its my transatlantic background, but I find the US vs. Europe discourse silly. Fact is that America and Europe are confronted with broadly the same problems.

    Europeans can paint to the malign influence of the US Empire on Europe, but the US Empire is also the enemy of Americans. Other than the hapless victims of American militarism we’re the first victims of the US Empire.

    The Americanization of racial discourse in Europe is a predictable consequence of importing American-style racial problems into Europe.

    What is now called “white nationalism” was the de facto American racial policy from the middle of the 17th century until the middle of the 20th century. Similar views took root in other European offshoots in the New World. Now that Europe is cursed with diversity it’s not surprising that some Europeans are discovering what their cousins across the water did four centuries ago.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @Thorfinnsson


    Perhaps its my transatlantic background
     
    I actually do think that plays a role. And maybe it's similar for other Americans with some ties to Europe.
    But I'm convinced many white Americans who really believe in American liberal mythology would cheerfully bomb any nationalist European regime that would use armed force to keep out migrants or even commit expulsions. They'd see it as part of a noble tradition, ranging from Lincoln's war against the South to free the slaves over WW2 (which was primarily about the Holocaust in this view) to the Kosovo war, fought on behalf of Muslims.

    What is now called “white nationalism” was the de facto American racial policy from the middle of the 17th century until the middle of the 20th century.
     
    If it had been as simple as that, black ex-slaves would never have been given political rights after the civil war (which is really strange if one thinks about it, has something like this ever happened anywhere else in world history?).
    I know American renaissance and other white nationalist publications push the line "Our views were totally mainstream not that long ago" (and of course leftie critics of "AmeriKKKa" agree), but to me it seems more like those issues were always controversial in American society, with a strong and increasingly dominant strain of extreme universalism present from quite early on.

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson, @for-the-record, @DFH

  540. German_reader says:
    @Thorfinnsson
    Perhaps its my transatlantic background, but I find the US vs. Europe discourse silly. Fact is that America and Europe are confronted with broadly the same problems.

    Europeans can paint to the malign influence of the US Empire on Europe, but the US Empire is also the enemy of Americans. Other than the hapless victims of American militarism we're the first victims of the US Empire.

    The Americanization of racial discourse in Europe is a predictable consequence of importing American-style racial problems into Europe.

    What is now called "white nationalism" was the de facto American racial policy from the middle of the 17th century until the middle of the 20th century. Similar views took root in other European offshoots in the New World. Now that Europe is cursed with diversity it's not surprising that some Europeans are discovering what their cousins across the water did four centuries ago.

    Replies: @German_reader

    Perhaps its my transatlantic background

    I actually do think that plays a role. And maybe it’s similar for other Americans with some ties to Europe.
    But I’m convinced many white Americans who really believe in American liberal mythology would cheerfully bomb any nationalist European regime that would use armed force to keep out migrants or even commit expulsions. They’d see it as part of a noble tradition, ranging from Lincoln’s war against the South to free the slaves over WW2 (which was primarily about the Holocaust in this view) to the Kosovo war, fought on behalf of Muslims.

    What is now called “white nationalism” was the de facto American racial policy from the middle of the 17th century until the middle of the 20th century.

    If it had been as simple as that, black ex-slaves would never have been given political rights after the civil war (which is really strange if one thinks about it, has something like this ever happened anywhere else in world history?).
    I know American renaissance and other white nationalist publications push the line “Our views were totally mainstream not that long ago” (and of course leftie critics of “AmeriKKKa” agree), but to me it seems more like those issues were always controversial in American society, with a strong and increasingly dominant strain of extreme universalism present from quite early on.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    @German_reader



    I actually do think that plays a role. And maybe it’s similar for other Americans with some ties to Europe.
     
    My transatlantic background does play a role, which is why I brought it up. Perhaps I shouldn't have said...perhaps.

    But I'm convinced I'm right.

    More on this later.


    But I’m convinced many white Americans who really believe in American liberal mythology would cheerfully bomb any nationalist European regime that would use armed force to keep out migrants or even commit expulsions. They’d see it as part of a noble tradition, ranging from Lincoln’s war against the South to free the slaves over WW2 (which was primarily about the Holocaust in this view) to the Kosovo war, fought on behalf of Muslims.
     
    Unfortunately this is true, but not unique to America. You can find many such Europeans. You've brought up your discussions with a "CDU cuck" who fancies himself an amateur secret policeman.


    If it had been as simple as that, black ex-slaves would never have been given political rights after the civil war (which is really strange if one thinks about it, has something like this ever happened anywhere else in world history?).
     
    The British promised freedom to slaves who were willing to fight with them against the American revolutionaries.

    That said there was something strange here.

    I know American renaissance and other white nationalist publications push the line “Our views were totally mainstream not that long ago” (and of course leftie critics of “AmeriKKKa” agree), but to me it seems more like those issues were always controversial in American society, with a strong and increasingly dominant strain of extreme universalism present from quite early on.
     
    And here is where my transatlantic background finally becomes useful.

    America is flawed from the outset in that the American Revolution was based on a pack of egalitarian lies. These lies weren't what actually motivated the Revolution, but the revolutionaries worked with the fashionable ideas in circulation at the time.

    The American Renaissance set is not wrong and has much historical evidence available to support their position, but unfortunately the opposite is true as well.

    Replies: @German_reader

    , @for-the-record
    @German_reader

    If it had been as simple as that, black ex-slaves would never have been given political rights after the civil war

    Well, to a certain extent they weren't, at least in the South. And when the US was fighting Nazi "racism", blacks couldn't eat in "white" restaurants in Washington, DC. On a national level, the US Armed Forces were of course also segregated (until 1948).

    , @DFH
    @German_reader


    “Our views were totally mainstream not that long ago” (and of course leftie critics of “AmeriKKKa” agree), but to me it seems more like those issues were always controversial in American society, with a strong and increasingly dominant strain of extreme universalism present from quite early on.
     
    In the 1920s the citizenship of thousands of (Asian) Indians was retroactively revoked because the supreme court determined that they weren't white.

    Replies: @songbird

  541. @German_reader
    @Thorfinnsson


    Perhaps its my transatlantic background
     
    I actually do think that plays a role. And maybe it's similar for other Americans with some ties to Europe.
    But I'm convinced many white Americans who really believe in American liberal mythology would cheerfully bomb any nationalist European regime that would use armed force to keep out migrants or even commit expulsions. They'd see it as part of a noble tradition, ranging from Lincoln's war against the South to free the slaves over WW2 (which was primarily about the Holocaust in this view) to the Kosovo war, fought on behalf of Muslims.

    What is now called “white nationalism” was the de facto American racial policy from the middle of the 17th century until the middle of the 20th century.
     
    If it had been as simple as that, black ex-slaves would never have been given political rights after the civil war (which is really strange if one thinks about it, has something like this ever happened anywhere else in world history?).
    I know American renaissance and other white nationalist publications push the line "Our views were totally mainstream not that long ago" (and of course leftie critics of "AmeriKKKa" agree), but to me it seems more like those issues were always controversial in American society, with a strong and increasingly dominant strain of extreme universalism present from quite early on.

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson, @for-the-record, @DFH

    I actually do think that plays a role. And maybe it’s similar for other Americans with some ties to Europe.

    My transatlantic background does play a role, which is why I brought it up. Perhaps I shouldn’t have said…perhaps.

    But I’m convinced I’m right.

    More on this later.

    But I’m convinced many white Americans who really believe in American liberal mythology would cheerfully bomb any nationalist European regime that would use armed force to keep out migrants or even commit expulsions. They’d see it as part of a noble tradition, ranging from Lincoln’s war against the South to free the slaves over WW2 (which was primarily about the Holocaust in this view) to the Kosovo war, fought on behalf of Muslims.

    Unfortunately this is true, but not unique to America. You can find many such Europeans. You’ve brought up your discussions with a “CDU cuck” who fancies himself an amateur secret policeman.

    If it had been as simple as that, black ex-slaves would never have been given political rights after the civil war (which is really strange if one thinks about it, has something like this ever happened anywhere else in world history?).

    The British promised freedom to slaves who were willing to fight with them against the American revolutionaries.

    That said there was something strange here.

    I know American renaissance and other white nationalist publications push the line “Our views were totally mainstream not that long ago” (and of course leftie critics of “AmeriKKKa” agree), but to me it seems more like those issues were always controversial in American society, with a strong and increasingly dominant strain of extreme universalism present from quite early on.

    And here is where my transatlantic background finally becomes useful.

    America is flawed from the outset in that the American Revolution was based on a pack of egalitarian lies. These lies weren’t what actually motivated the Revolution, but the revolutionaries worked with the fashionable ideas in circulation at the time.

    The American Renaissance set is not wrong and has much historical evidence available to support their position, but unfortunately the opposite is true as well.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @Thorfinnsson


    You’ve brought up your discussions with a “CDU cuck” who fancies himself an amateur secret policeman.
     
    Germans can be pretty insufferable (and reporting others to authorities is a German vice, both Gestapo and Stasi wouldn't have worked otherwise), and like Americans they like to lecture other peoples. But today they don't have military hard power (or the willingness to use it) for forcing their preferred ideology on others...America does. And frankly, when I read the things both American liberals and "conservatives" write at times, I'm not really happy about that. There's a strong anti-European strain in American thought, and today it is very much linked to "antiracism" and multiculturalism. If European countries ever would move away from that model, there might well be conflict.

    The British promised freedom to slaves who were willing to fight with them against the American revolutionaries.
     
    Things like that happened even in the ancient world, when military necessity dictated it, without calling the general system of slavery into question (and indeed it would still be 50 years until the British completely abolished slavery). And granting freedom isn't the remarkable part for me (I'm not in favour of slavery anyway, I hope I haven't given the impression I am)...the granting of equal political rights is, without even some interval (many of the ex-slaves must have been illiterate). That's absurdly radical by any standard.

    Replies: @songbird

  542. @Hyperborean
    @German_reader


    Europeans adopting the talking points of US racialist right-wingers is the flipside of that…understandable, but imo still problematic since it reinforces the dependence on American modes of thought.
     
    While race is of course important, I also find this tendency to think in terms of continental races and sideline ethnicity unsettling.

    I have seen cases of both American white nationalists (calling the Baltic countries of Estonia and Latvia "homogeneous" because there are no non-whites there) and liberals (complaining that "the white kid" was carrying the Soviet banner in an USSR textbook praising inter-ethnic coexistence) doing this.

    I find it disturbing because of Europeans current-day mental dependence means that Europe risks simply becoming an overseas extension of the USA, and even if America was not its present mess and was instead Karlin’s idealised 1950's America I would still find it unsettling to adopt many dangerous assumptions that Americans have and had about their identity even in the 19th century.*

    *As an example, Henry Ford, of The International Jew infamy, used to have "English Schools" at his factories where people would be encouraged to become Americans and at the "graduation" they would go into a building wearing traditional dress and come out of the building wearing American clothes.

    Replies: @David Davenport, @songbird

    * I would still find it unsettling to adopt many dangerous assumptions that Americans have and had about their identity even in the 19th century.*.

    What are these dangerous assumptions of which you speak? Please elucidate.

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
    @David Davenport


    What are these dangerous assumptions of which you speak? Please elucidate.
     
    -All (white) people can become Americans, coupled with frequent uprooting due to work or education and a national mythology that celebrates newness and reinventing oneself.

    -A moralistic culture always searching for another liberation crusade at home or abroad. America is not alone in having been enveloped in fanaticism, but the extreme focus on *freedom* and the fact that so many of the most important American conflicts (the Revolutionary War, the Northern victory in the Civil War, WWI, WWII, the Cold War) reinforce the idea of America the Invincible Liberator, makes it especially dangerous. Of course, there are defeats like Vietnam, but there are no soul-crushing downfalls to dissuade Americans.

    Replies: @LondonBob, @David Davenport

  543. @German_reader
    @utu


    Irving work could lead to sealing the artificial cracks created for propaganda purposes by Anglo-Americans Jews and Soviets in the fabric of European identity.
     
    That's an illusion. The resentment against Germany in most European countries isn't based just on American, Soviet or Jewish propaganda. It has a factual basis in German actions during WW2, which in many cases were of an undeniably criminal nature. No amount of revisionism (unless it's just propaganda itself) will ever make the deliberate mass killings of Polish elites or the massacres of civilians during anti-partisan operations look good, nor are Heydrich's musings about the need to deport half of all Czechs ever likely to inspire much sympathy in the Czech republic. This isn't necessarily linked to pro-American or pro-Jewish attitudes either. Greeks are highly anti-American (and supposedly also quite antisemitic, if one can trust the polls commissioned by Jewish organizations), but they still resent Germany because of the massacres and the cultural vandalism during the German occupation.
    It's also convenient for everybody else to lay sole responsibility for everything that went wrong during the 1914-1945 era on Germany (the issue isn't limited to WW2, Germany's WW1 war guilt is still an article of faith for many). You can see this even with Italians who get to claim that they were always just brava gente, fundamentally decent folk (even when they dropped mustard gas on Ethiopians), unlike the uniquely evil Teutons (and who find a ready audience for that view, as demonstrated by AK's "Mussolini did nothing wrong" article). German evil is a great foil for one's own humanity or heroism.
    And there is also zero prospect of revisionism ever gaining ground in Germany itself (which is clearly in a terminal phase as a nation and has devolved into complete infantilism). A few years ago, when I still watched television, I watched some stupid talk show. One of the guests was Serdar Somuncu, a Turkish-born "comedian" who has made a career of lecturing Germans about the Nazi past (something to which he has no personal connection, since his kind wasn't here back then). Somuncu suggested Germans shouldn't mourn for German WW2 dead at all, but only for the victims of Nazi crimes. No one objected, apparently everyone agreed. That kind of attitude is typical of today's Germany.

    Replies: @utu, @Epigon

    What you describe is what was constructed long after the War and it got worse with the passage of time when the 2 dimensional Nazis cartoons for ‘reiner Tor’ were being constructed ad infinitum and the real ‘Nazis’ were lost. You totally underestimate or even are unaware of European artistic and religious elites who were setting a different tone after the war, the tone of reconciliation and of forgiveness which are essential part of our Western Civilization. People want reconciliation and they want to forgive but it becomes difficult when the fire of hate is being stoked. Who did supply he fuel for this fire? Who kept it going?

    You probably are not aware of the letter of Polish Bishops written to their German counterparts already in 1965 that began with the words “We forgive and ask for forgiveness”. You probably are not familiar with Polish or Russian and even American cinematography created in the first 20 years after the war. They were not blood thirsty and vengeance was not emphasized. People were still conditioned by the ethos of European education that vengeance was bad and not just Christians bad even for the ones who underwent the indoctrination by the godless Komsomol like Dmitri or Karlin parents. You have never heard of 1961 Polish movie “Tonight a City Will Die” about the annihilation of Dresden. Here it is in its Russian version:

    Kurt Vonnegut in 1969 wrote the most powerful and very beautiful anti-war novel “Slaughterhouse-Five, or The Children’s Crusade: A Duty-Dance with Death” centered on the destruction of Dresden. Where are the other anti-war novels written after the WWII while so many were written after the WWI? Why there are so few? After David Irving wrote The Destruction of Dresden in 1963 he was targeted by some Jewish “burglar” outfit.

    Then came the Six-Day War in 1967 and everything has changed. The Holocaust became the most important propaganda project. It all became about not forgiving and about the vengeance. This was all written using the Jewish cultural code not the European Christian code. Young generations of future ‘reined Tors” are now conditioned by Tarantino’s “Inglourious Basterds.” I am sure they learn history and humanity form it.

    Post(trans)-humans like A. Karlin produce texts were they rationally justify mass rapes of German women and top it off with casual remarks of how great the bombings of Hiroshima and German cities were.

    Probably I am getting too old. I getting too tired to explain what people from your generation of post-humans, the Mowglis raised by the video games are unable to get.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @utu


    Young generations of future ‘reined Tors” are now conditioned by Tarantino’s “Inglourious Basterds.” I am sure they learn history and humanity form it.
     
    That's a caricature, and deeply unfair to "reiner tor".
    I don't know why you always have to be so extreme about those issues and resort to personal attacks, it makes nuanced discussion difficult.

    Replies: @utu

    , @songbird
    @utu

    Honestly, I think Vonnegut is generally a terrible writer. I will give him credit for depicting the bombing critically, and one or two other things in his other writings. They say you can tell if someone is a misanthrope by whether or not they can create likable characters - Vonnegut cannot. (Though that could possibly relate to skill.)

    That particular novel is decadent. I won't be so tawdry to quote the disgusting, X-rated passage I recall, but "beautiful' it is not.

    BTW, that is an interesting idea about 1967 being a cultural turning point, rather than WW2 by itself. At the time Vonnegut wrote his book, I'd say there was a lot of antiwar sentiment, in part because of Vietnam, but also because there were a lot of veterans, like him, still living. Obviously though, Holocaust, Inc. took a while to develop.

    Replies: @German_reader, @utu

    , @reiner Tor
    @utu


    2 dimensional Nazis cartoons for ‘reiner Tor’
     
    I’m pretty sure you must have been reading someone else’s comments, not mine.
  544. German_reader says:
    @Thorfinnsson
    @German_reader



    I actually do think that plays a role. And maybe it’s similar for other Americans with some ties to Europe.
     
    My transatlantic background does play a role, which is why I brought it up. Perhaps I shouldn't have said...perhaps.

    But I'm convinced I'm right.

    More on this later.


    But I’m convinced many white Americans who really believe in American liberal mythology would cheerfully bomb any nationalist European regime that would use armed force to keep out migrants or even commit expulsions. They’d see it as part of a noble tradition, ranging from Lincoln’s war against the South to free the slaves over WW2 (which was primarily about the Holocaust in this view) to the Kosovo war, fought on behalf of Muslims.
     
    Unfortunately this is true, but not unique to America. You can find many such Europeans. You've brought up your discussions with a "CDU cuck" who fancies himself an amateur secret policeman.


    If it had been as simple as that, black ex-slaves would never have been given political rights after the civil war (which is really strange if one thinks about it, has something like this ever happened anywhere else in world history?).
     
    The British promised freedom to slaves who were willing to fight with them against the American revolutionaries.

    That said there was something strange here.

    I know American renaissance and other white nationalist publications push the line “Our views were totally mainstream not that long ago” (and of course leftie critics of “AmeriKKKa” agree), but to me it seems more like those issues were always controversial in American society, with a strong and increasingly dominant strain of extreme universalism present from quite early on.
     
    And here is where my transatlantic background finally becomes useful.

    America is flawed from the outset in that the American Revolution was based on a pack of egalitarian lies. These lies weren't what actually motivated the Revolution, but the revolutionaries worked with the fashionable ideas in circulation at the time.

    The American Renaissance set is not wrong and has much historical evidence available to support their position, but unfortunately the opposite is true as well.

    Replies: @German_reader

    You’ve brought up your discussions with a “CDU cuck” who fancies himself an amateur secret policeman.

    Germans can be pretty insufferable (and reporting others to authorities is a German vice, both Gestapo and Stasi wouldn’t have worked otherwise), and like Americans they like to lecture other peoples. But today they don’t have military hard power (or the willingness to use it) for forcing their preferred ideology on others…America does. And frankly, when I read the things both American liberals and “conservatives” write at times, I’m not really happy about that. There’s a strong anti-European strain in American thought, and today it is very much linked to “antiracism” and multiculturalism. If European countries ever would move away from that model, there might well be conflict.

    The British promised freedom to slaves who were willing to fight with them against the American revolutionaries.

    Things like that happened even in the ancient world, when military necessity dictated it, without calling the general system of slavery into question (and indeed it would still be 50 years until the British completely abolished slavery). And granting freedom isn’t the remarkable part for me (I’m not in favour of slavery anyway, I hope I haven’t given the impression I am)…the granting of equal political rights is, without even some interval (many of the ex-slaves must have been illiterate). That’s absurdly radical by any standard.

    • Replies: @songbird
    @German_reader

    The German government today is essentially an occupation government, constructed by occupying powers. When I say that, of course, I'm being little provocative, but there is nevertheless a large grain of truth in it. The current government evolved directly from the occupation government, and this influenced German politics and culture.

    It is the exact same thing with the US. The government of today is the Homo (pun intended) to its ape ancestor at the end of the Civil War. Slaves were mostly given the vote to help disenfranchise Southern whites. Eventually, the South rallied and there was a movement towards sanity, and of taking away the vote from blacks, but by that time, the power dynamic had already been created, and it was arguably to late to stop it.

    What was essentially different about the US, when comparing it to South Africa, was that blacks were a small enough group that many people could delude themselves into thinking it would not be that destructive to give them the vote.

  545. German_reader says:
    @utu
    @German_reader

    What you describe is what was constructed long after the War and it got worse with the passage of time when the 2 dimensional Nazis cartoons for 'reiner Tor' were being constructed ad infinitum and the real 'Nazis' were lost. You totally underestimate or even are unaware of European artistic and religious elites who were setting a different tone after the war, the tone of reconciliation and of forgiveness which are essential part of our Western Civilization. People want reconciliation and they want to forgive but it becomes difficult when the fire of hate is being stoked. Who did supply he fuel for this fire? Who kept it going?

    You probably are not aware of the letter of Polish Bishops written to their German counterparts already in 1965 that began with the words "We forgive and ask for forgiveness". You probably are not familiar with Polish or Russian and even American cinematography created in the first 20 years after the war. They were not blood thirsty and vengeance was not emphasized. People were still conditioned by the ethos of European education that vengeance was bad and not just Christians bad even for the ones who underwent the indoctrination by the godless Komsomol like Dmitri or Karlin parents. You have never heard of 1961 Polish movie "Tonight a City Will Die" about the annihilation of Dresden. Here it is in its Russian version:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hS2wZfFv94k

    Kurt Vonnegut in 1969 wrote the most powerful and very beautiful anti-war novel "Slaughterhouse-Five, or The Children's Crusade: A Duty-Dance with Death" centered on the destruction of Dresden. Where are the other anti-war novels written after the WWII while so many were written after the WWI? Why there are so few? After David Irving wrote The Destruction of Dresden in 1963 he was targeted by some Jewish "burglar" outfit.

    Then came the Six-Day War in 1967 and everything has changed. The Holocaust became the most important propaganda project. It all became about not forgiving and about the vengeance. This was all written using the Jewish cultural code not the European Christian code. Young generations of future 'reined Tors" are now conditioned by Tarantino's "Inglourious Basterds." I am sure they learn history and humanity form it.

    Post(trans)-humans like A. Karlin produce texts were they rationally justify mass rapes of German women and top it off with casual remarks of how great the bombings of Hiroshima and German cities were.

    Probably I am getting too old. I getting too tired to explain what people from your generation of post-humans, the Mowglis raised by the video games are unable to get.

    Replies: @German_reader, @songbird, @reiner Tor

    Young generations of future ‘reined Tors” are now conditioned by Tarantino’s “Inglourious Basterds.” I am sure they learn history and humanity form it.

    That’s a caricature, and deeply unfair to “reiner tor”.
    I don’t know why you always have to be so extreme about those issues and resort to personal attacks, it makes nuanced discussion difficult.

    • Replies: @utu
    @German_reader

    I do not think you know what nuanced is. In your case its is an euphemism for "cuck."

    Replies: @German_reader

  546. @German_reader
    @utu


    Young generations of future ‘reined Tors” are now conditioned by Tarantino’s “Inglourious Basterds.” I am sure they learn history and humanity form it.
     
    That's a caricature, and deeply unfair to "reiner tor".
    I don't know why you always have to be so extreme about those issues and resort to personal attacks, it makes nuanced discussion difficult.

    Replies: @utu

    I do not think you know what nuanced is. In your case its is an euphemism for “cuck.”

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @utu

    If you had taken the trouble to read (and understand) my comment above about the remembrance of WW2, you might understand that this is pretty absurd.
    But sometimes it's hard not to get the impression that you won't be content with anything less than "everything is a Jewish plot" anyway.

    Replies: @utu

  547. @Anonymous
    @utu

    Anti-Americanism is difficult to exploit as a political force, especially in Europe, for a few reasons:

    -Historical association of anti-Americanism with fringe far-right and far-left movements which are generally regarded as cranky, ineffectual failures

    -America is not a remote, abstract entity; almost everybody likes at least some American stuff (especially young people), which can induce cognitive dissonance

    -Although America is in some respects dysfunctional, it is still in many other aspects a highly functional and even aspirational society. If you cite American diversity as a weakness the opposition can easily point to e.g. Silicon Valley (since all countries would like to have something like Silicon Valley within their borders)

    Also, while American racial categories have historically not had much applicability to the European context, I don't think this is the case anymore today: as long as you have relative freedom of movement between European states (which will be the case for the foreseeable future), combined with substantial MENA presence in those states, people are going to make distinctions between "white" (European) and "non-white," if only on a subconscious level

    Replies: @utu

    You are bringing up good objections but it all can be fixed. You hire Cambridge Analytica or a similar outfit and they will be able to come up with phrases that will navigate around the apparent contradictions and created a coherent message. I have outlined the general strategy that is the only one that can work. It is the job of tacticians and technicians to implement it.

  548. German_reader says:
    @utu
    @German_reader

    I do not think you know what nuanced is. In your case its is an euphemism for "cuck."

    Replies: @German_reader

    If you had taken the trouble to read (and understand) my comment above about the remembrance of WW2, you might understand that this is pretty absurd.
    But sometimes it’s hard not to get the impression that you won’t be content with anything less than “everything is a Jewish plot” anyway.

    • Replies: @utu
    @German_reader

    You will come around to my point of view eventually. With or without the Jewish long term perseverance and plodding which some like to call it a plot.

  549. @David Davenport
    @Hyperborean

    * I would still find it unsettling to adopt many dangerous assumptions that Americans have and had about their identity even in the 19th century.*.

    What are these dangerous assumptions of which you speak? Please elucidate.

    Replies: @Hyperborean

    What are these dangerous assumptions of which you speak? Please elucidate.

    -All (white) people can become Americans, coupled with frequent uprooting due to work or education and a national mythology that celebrates newness and reinventing oneself.

    -A moralistic culture always searching for another liberation crusade at home or abroad. America is not alone in having been enveloped in fanaticism, but the extreme focus on *freedom* and the fact that so many of the most important American conflicts (the Revolutionary War, the Northern victory in the Civil War, WWI, WWII, the Cold War) reinforce the idea of America the Invincible Liberator, makes it especially dangerous. Of course, there are defeats like Vietnam, but there are no soul-crushing downfalls to dissuade Americans.

    • Agree: German_reader
    • Replies: @LondonBob
    @Hyperborean

    The South is the most militaristic, with their Scots Irish and English cavalier heritage, despite the crushing defeat they suffered in the Civil War, as Shelby Foote pointed out it was strange that Patton should say America never lost a war as his own grandfather was in the Army of Northern Virginia (the US also basically lost the War of 1812). Truth is America has more of a tradition of pacifism and isolationism, with the US Army of minimal relevance for most of US history. Current hyper militarism is really a Cold War relic given new life by neocon zionist concerns.

    The US is really far more left wing, and cultural Marxism much more embedded, than Europe. Academia, finance, business and mass media particularly so, and it is these that are influential internationally. A lot of people seem to have perception of America that is either out of date, or woefully out of date.

    , @David Davenport
    @Hyperborean

    -All (white) people can become Americans, coupled with frequent uprooting due to work or education and a national mythology that celebrates newness and reinventing oneself.

    What is your objection to that premise? Please explain further.

  550. @Hyperborean
    @David Davenport


    What are these dangerous assumptions of which you speak? Please elucidate.
     
    -All (white) people can become Americans, coupled with frequent uprooting due to work or education and a national mythology that celebrates newness and reinventing oneself.

    -A moralistic culture always searching for another liberation crusade at home or abroad. America is not alone in having been enveloped in fanaticism, but the extreme focus on *freedom* and the fact that so many of the most important American conflicts (the Revolutionary War, the Northern victory in the Civil War, WWI, WWII, the Cold War) reinforce the idea of America the Invincible Liberator, makes it especially dangerous. Of course, there are defeats like Vietnam, but there are no soul-crushing downfalls to dissuade Americans.

    Replies: @LondonBob, @David Davenport

    The South is the most militaristic, with their Scots Irish and English cavalier heritage, despite the crushing defeat they suffered in the Civil War, as Shelby Foote pointed out it was strange that Patton should say America never lost a war as his own grandfather was in the Army of Northern Virginia (the US also basically lost the War of 1812). Truth is America has more of a tradition of pacifism and isolationism, with the US Army of minimal relevance for most of US history. Current hyper militarism is really a Cold War relic given new life by neocon zionist concerns.

    The US is really far more left wing, and cultural Marxism much more embedded, than Europe. Academia, finance, business and mass media particularly so, and it is these that are influential internationally. A lot of people seem to have perception of America that is either out of date, or woefully out of date.

  551. @German_reader
    @utu

    If you had taken the trouble to read (and understand) my comment above about the remembrance of WW2, you might understand that this is pretty absurd.
    But sometimes it's hard not to get the impression that you won't be content with anything less than "everything is a Jewish plot" anyway.

    Replies: @utu

    You will come around to my point of view eventually. With or without the Jewish long term perseverance and plodding which some like to call it a plot.

  552. @utu
    @German_reader

    What you describe is what was constructed long after the War and it got worse with the passage of time when the 2 dimensional Nazis cartoons for 'reiner Tor' were being constructed ad infinitum and the real 'Nazis' were lost. You totally underestimate or even are unaware of European artistic and religious elites who were setting a different tone after the war, the tone of reconciliation and of forgiveness which are essential part of our Western Civilization. People want reconciliation and they want to forgive but it becomes difficult when the fire of hate is being stoked. Who did supply he fuel for this fire? Who kept it going?

    You probably are not aware of the letter of Polish Bishops written to their German counterparts already in 1965 that began with the words "We forgive and ask for forgiveness". You probably are not familiar with Polish or Russian and even American cinematography created in the first 20 years after the war. They were not blood thirsty and vengeance was not emphasized. People were still conditioned by the ethos of European education that vengeance was bad and not just Christians bad even for the ones who underwent the indoctrination by the godless Komsomol like Dmitri or Karlin parents. You have never heard of 1961 Polish movie "Tonight a City Will Die" about the annihilation of Dresden. Here it is in its Russian version:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hS2wZfFv94k

    Kurt Vonnegut in 1969 wrote the most powerful and very beautiful anti-war novel "Slaughterhouse-Five, or The Children's Crusade: A Duty-Dance with Death" centered on the destruction of Dresden. Where are the other anti-war novels written after the WWII while so many were written after the WWI? Why there are so few? After David Irving wrote The Destruction of Dresden in 1963 he was targeted by some Jewish "burglar" outfit.

    Then came the Six-Day War in 1967 and everything has changed. The Holocaust became the most important propaganda project. It all became about not forgiving and about the vengeance. This was all written using the Jewish cultural code not the European Christian code. Young generations of future 'reined Tors" are now conditioned by Tarantino's "Inglourious Basterds." I am sure they learn history and humanity form it.

    Post(trans)-humans like A. Karlin produce texts were they rationally justify mass rapes of German women and top it off with casual remarks of how great the bombings of Hiroshima and German cities were.

    Probably I am getting too old. I getting too tired to explain what people from your generation of post-humans, the Mowglis raised by the video games are unable to get.

    Replies: @German_reader, @songbird, @reiner Tor

    Honestly, I think Vonnegut is generally a terrible writer. I will give him credit for depicting the bombing critically, and one or two other things in his other writings. They say you can tell if someone is a misanthrope by whether or not they can create likable characters – Vonnegut cannot. (Though that could possibly relate to skill.)

    That particular novel is decadent. I won’t be so tawdry to quote the disgusting, X-rated passage I recall, but “beautiful’ it is not.

    BTW, that is an interesting idea about 1967 being a cultural turning point, rather than WW2 by itself. At the time Vonnegut wrote his book, I’d say there was a lot of antiwar sentiment, in part because of Vietnam, but also because there were a lot of veterans, like him, still living. Obviously though, Holocaust, Inc. took a while to develop.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @songbird


    that is an interesting idea about 1967 being a cultural turning point
     
    It's not an original point by Utu, it's widely accepted that Jewish nationalism increased dramatically among American Jews because of the six-day-war (which may even in part have a religious basis, with the conquest of the religious sites in East Jerusalem). Of course there were also more general factors favoring this, with the loss of power of the traditional WASP establishment whose norms were no longer seen as the standard one had to assimilate to.
    I'm not sure about Holocaust remembrance though, my impression has always been that it really escalated to its present, cult-like form only in the 1990s (in tandem with multiculturalism becoming the dominant ideology in many Western countries). But maybe I'm too young to accurately assess this.

    Replies: @songbird

    , @utu
    @songbird

    I agree that Vonnegut was an uneven writer. But the Slaughterhouse-Five is probably his best and it is the best anti-war novel of WWII. I read it several times and every time I read it I found it better and deeper. All negative opinions about him I personally heard came from Jews and at that time I did not connect the dots until much later when I became a Judeorealist.

  553. German_reader says:
    @songbird
    @utu

    Honestly, I think Vonnegut is generally a terrible writer. I will give him credit for depicting the bombing critically, and one or two other things in his other writings. They say you can tell if someone is a misanthrope by whether or not they can create likable characters - Vonnegut cannot. (Though that could possibly relate to skill.)

    That particular novel is decadent. I won't be so tawdry to quote the disgusting, X-rated passage I recall, but "beautiful' it is not.

    BTW, that is an interesting idea about 1967 being a cultural turning point, rather than WW2 by itself. At the time Vonnegut wrote his book, I'd say there was a lot of antiwar sentiment, in part because of Vietnam, but also because there were a lot of veterans, like him, still living. Obviously though, Holocaust, Inc. took a while to develop.

    Replies: @German_reader, @utu

    that is an interesting idea about 1967 being a cultural turning point

    It’s not an original point by Utu, it’s widely accepted that Jewish nationalism increased dramatically among American Jews because of the six-day-war (which may even in part have a religious basis, with the conquest of the religious sites in East Jerusalem). Of course there were also more general factors favoring this, with the loss of power of the traditional WASP establishment whose norms were no longer seen as the standard one had to assimilate to.
    I’m not sure about Holocaust remembrance though, my impression has always been that it really escalated to its present, cult-like form only in the 1990s (in tandem with multiculturalism becoming the dominant ideology in many Western countries). But maybe I’m too young to accurately assess this.

    • Replies: @songbird
    @German_reader

    I really wish someone would do an historical study about the spread of Holocaust memorials, and the evolution and frequency of Holocaust language in print and fiction. As well as study the flow of money involved. The way I view it, the memorials would be a proxy for the political narrative, and the trendlines would have a similar shape.

    It would be interesting to compare it to the Armenian genocide and others. I bet they would all look like abortive Holocaust trendlines, since those groups don't have the same influence necessary to construct their own Holocaust, Inc. But maybe, the Holocaust trendline would have some predictive value going forward. Is the process slowing down? Or still accelerating? In any case, I don't think it can go on forever.

    Some of those memorials most likely will come down, like Saddam 's statue or statues of Lenin. It doesn't help that they are overwhelmingly ugly.

    Replies: @German_reader, @for-the-record

  554. @songbird
    @utu

    Honestly, I think Vonnegut is generally a terrible writer. I will give him credit for depicting the bombing critically, and one or two other things in his other writings. They say you can tell if someone is a misanthrope by whether or not they can create likable characters - Vonnegut cannot. (Though that could possibly relate to skill.)

    That particular novel is decadent. I won't be so tawdry to quote the disgusting, X-rated passage I recall, but "beautiful' it is not.

    BTW, that is an interesting idea about 1967 being a cultural turning point, rather than WW2 by itself. At the time Vonnegut wrote his book, I'd say there was a lot of antiwar sentiment, in part because of Vietnam, but also because there were a lot of veterans, like him, still living. Obviously though, Holocaust, Inc. took a while to develop.

    Replies: @German_reader, @utu

    I agree that Vonnegut was an uneven writer. But the Slaughterhouse-Five is probably his best and it is the best anti-war novel of WWII. I read it several times and every time I read it I found it better and deeper. All negative opinions about him I personally heard came from Jews and at that time I did not connect the dots until much later when I became a Judeorealist.

  555. @German_reader
    @Thorfinnsson


    You’ve brought up your discussions with a “CDU cuck” who fancies himself an amateur secret policeman.
     
    Germans can be pretty insufferable (and reporting others to authorities is a German vice, both Gestapo and Stasi wouldn't have worked otherwise), and like Americans they like to lecture other peoples. But today they don't have military hard power (or the willingness to use it) for forcing their preferred ideology on others...America does. And frankly, when I read the things both American liberals and "conservatives" write at times, I'm not really happy about that. There's a strong anti-European strain in American thought, and today it is very much linked to "antiracism" and multiculturalism. If European countries ever would move away from that model, there might well be conflict.

    The British promised freedom to slaves who were willing to fight with them against the American revolutionaries.
     
    Things like that happened even in the ancient world, when military necessity dictated it, without calling the general system of slavery into question (and indeed it would still be 50 years until the British completely abolished slavery). And granting freedom isn't the remarkable part for me (I'm not in favour of slavery anyway, I hope I haven't given the impression I am)...the granting of equal political rights is, without even some interval (many of the ex-slaves must have been illiterate). That's absurdly radical by any standard.

    Replies: @songbird

    The German government today is essentially an occupation government, constructed by occupying powers. When I say that, of course, I’m being little provocative, but there is nevertheless a large grain of truth in it. The current government evolved directly from the occupation government, and this influenced German politics and culture.

    It is the exact same thing with the US. The government of today is the Homo (pun intended) to its ape ancestor at the end of the Civil War. Slaves were mostly given the vote to help disenfranchise Southern whites. Eventually, the South rallied and there was a movement towards sanity, and of taking away the vote from blacks, but by that time, the power dynamic had already been created, and it was arguably to late to stop it.

    What was essentially different about the US, when comparing it to South Africa, was that blacks were a small enough group that many people could delude themselves into thinking it would not be that destructive to give them the vote.

  556. @Hyperborean
    @David Davenport


    What are these dangerous assumptions of which you speak? Please elucidate.
     
    -All (white) people can become Americans, coupled with frequent uprooting due to work or education and a national mythology that celebrates newness and reinventing oneself.

    -A moralistic culture always searching for another liberation crusade at home or abroad. America is not alone in having been enveloped in fanaticism, but the extreme focus on *freedom* and the fact that so many of the most important American conflicts (the Revolutionary War, the Northern victory in the Civil War, WWI, WWII, the Cold War) reinforce the idea of America the Invincible Liberator, makes it especially dangerous. Of course, there are defeats like Vietnam, but there are no soul-crushing downfalls to dissuade Americans.

    Replies: @LondonBob, @David Davenport

    -All (white) people can become Americans, coupled with frequent uprooting due to work or education and a national mythology that celebrates newness and reinventing oneself.

    What is your objection to that premise? Please explain further.

  557. @German_reader
    @songbird


    that is an interesting idea about 1967 being a cultural turning point
     
    It's not an original point by Utu, it's widely accepted that Jewish nationalism increased dramatically among American Jews because of the six-day-war (which may even in part have a religious basis, with the conquest of the religious sites in East Jerusalem). Of course there were also more general factors favoring this, with the loss of power of the traditional WASP establishment whose norms were no longer seen as the standard one had to assimilate to.
    I'm not sure about Holocaust remembrance though, my impression has always been that it really escalated to its present, cult-like form only in the 1990s (in tandem with multiculturalism becoming the dominant ideology in many Western countries). But maybe I'm too young to accurately assess this.

    Replies: @songbird

    I really wish someone would do an historical study about the spread of Holocaust memorials, and the evolution and frequency of Holocaust language in print and fiction. As well as study the flow of money involved. The way I view it, the memorials would be a proxy for the political narrative, and the trendlines would have a similar shape.

    It would be interesting to compare it to the Armenian genocide and others. I bet they would all look like abortive Holocaust trendlines, since those groups don’t have the same influence necessary to construct their own Holocaust, Inc. But maybe, the Holocaust trendline would have some predictive value going forward. Is the process slowing down? Or still accelerating? In any case, I don’t think it can go on forever.

    Some of those memorials most likely will come down, like Saddam ‘s statue or statues of Lenin. It doesn’t help that they are overwhelmingly ugly.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @songbird


    Is the process slowing down? Or still accelerating? In any case, I don’t think it can go on forever.
     
    It may have already reached its peak. Living links to the era are becoming increasingly tenuous, WW2 must feel very long ago to someone who's 20 today. There's also the issue that Holocaust remembrance has served as a sort of foundation myth for multiculturalism. Since multiculturalism and mass immigration are likely to lead many Western societies into the abyss, Holocaust remembrance might eventually be discredited as well.
    Until then however one should probably expect a lot of young Muslim women and other immigrants trying to appropriate the Holocaust cult for their own purposes.

    Replies: @utu

    , @for-the-record
    @songbird

    I really wish someone would do an historical study about . . . the evolution and frequency of Holocaust language in print and fiction.

    Here's a quick one using Google Ngram, and comparing the "popularity" of the following terms: Pearl Harbor, atomic bomb, appeasement, Hiroshima, Nagasaki, genocide, holocaust. The "results" suggest that the key decade was the 1970s, lending support to Utu's thesis.

    Replies: @German_reader, @songbird, @songbird

  558. German_reader says:
    @songbird
    @German_reader

    I really wish someone would do an historical study about the spread of Holocaust memorials, and the evolution and frequency of Holocaust language in print and fiction. As well as study the flow of money involved. The way I view it, the memorials would be a proxy for the political narrative, and the trendlines would have a similar shape.

    It would be interesting to compare it to the Armenian genocide and others. I bet they would all look like abortive Holocaust trendlines, since those groups don't have the same influence necessary to construct their own Holocaust, Inc. But maybe, the Holocaust trendline would have some predictive value going forward. Is the process slowing down? Or still accelerating? In any case, I don't think it can go on forever.

    Some of those memorials most likely will come down, like Saddam 's statue or statues of Lenin. It doesn't help that they are overwhelmingly ugly.

    Replies: @German_reader, @for-the-record

    Is the process slowing down? Or still accelerating? In any case, I don’t think it can go on forever.

    It may have already reached its peak. Living links to the era are becoming increasingly tenuous, WW2 must feel very long ago to someone who’s 20 today. There’s also the issue that Holocaust remembrance has served as a sort of foundation myth for multiculturalism. Since multiculturalism and mass immigration are likely to lead many Western societies into the abyss, Holocaust remembrance might eventually be discredited as well.
    Until then however one should probably expect a lot of young Muslim women and other immigrants trying to appropriate the Holocaust cult for their own purposes.

    • Replies: @utu
    @German_reader


    It may have already reached its peak.
     
    Quite the opposite. The haggadah of Holocaust will continue being constructed and reinforced. Less eyewitnesses the better for the story.

    After 522 Years, Spain Seeks To Make Amends For Expulsion Of Jews
    https://www.npr.org/sections/parallels/2014/12/25/371866778/after-522-years-spain-seeks-to-make-amends-for-expulsion-of-jews

    Replies: @utu, @DFH

  559. @German_reader
    @songbird


    Is the process slowing down? Or still accelerating? In any case, I don’t think it can go on forever.
     
    It may have already reached its peak. Living links to the era are becoming increasingly tenuous, WW2 must feel very long ago to someone who's 20 today. There's also the issue that Holocaust remembrance has served as a sort of foundation myth for multiculturalism. Since multiculturalism and mass immigration are likely to lead many Western societies into the abyss, Holocaust remembrance might eventually be discredited as well.
    Until then however one should probably expect a lot of young Muslim women and other immigrants trying to appropriate the Holocaust cult for their own purposes.

    Replies: @utu

    It may have already reached its peak.

    Quite the opposite. The haggadah of Holocaust will continue being constructed and reinforced. Less eyewitnesses the better for the story.

    After 522 Years, Spain Seeks To Make Amends For Expulsion Of Jews
    https://www.npr.org/sections/parallels/2014/12/25/371866778/after-522-years-spain-seeks-to-make-amends-for-expulsion-of-jews

    • Replies: @utu
    @utu

    Portugal Offers Restitution To Descendants Of Jews Persecuted During Inquisition
    https://jewishbusinessnews.com/2015/02/02/portugal-offers-restitution-to-descendants-of-jews-persecuted-during-inquisition/

    Portugal is seeking to make restitution for its treatment of Jews during the Inquisition by offering citizenship to anyone who can prove they are descendants of the Sephardic Jews who were either killed or driven out of the country 500 years ago, Examiner.com said.

    Replies: @Epigon

    , @DFH
    @utu

    Have Jews apologised for anything ever?

    Murdering Christ would be a good place to start.

    Replies: @utu, @for-the-record

  560. @Hyperborean
    @German_reader


    Europeans adopting the talking points of US racialist right-wingers is the flipside of that…understandable, but imo still problematic since it reinforces the dependence on American modes of thought.
     
    While race is of course important, I also find this tendency to think in terms of continental races and sideline ethnicity unsettling.

    I have seen cases of both American white nationalists (calling the Baltic countries of Estonia and Latvia "homogeneous" because there are no non-whites there) and liberals (complaining that "the white kid" was carrying the Soviet banner in an USSR textbook praising inter-ethnic coexistence) doing this.

    I find it disturbing because of Europeans current-day mental dependence means that Europe risks simply becoming an overseas extension of the USA, and even if America was not its present mess and was instead Karlin’s idealised 1950's America I would still find it unsettling to adopt many dangerous assumptions that Americans have and had about their identity even in the 19th century.*

    *As an example, Henry Ford, of The International Jew infamy, used to have "English Schools" at his factories where people would be encouraged to become Americans and at the "graduation" they would go into a building wearing traditional dress and come out of the building wearing American clothes.

    Replies: @David Davenport, @songbird

    Ford seems to have been surprisingly naive about blacks. At least, I have never heard of him being critical of them and I bet a lot of people were motivated to search, since his attitude towards blacks is presented as a defense of his character, which has been damaged and defamed to the point where he is thought of as being a Nazi. (Curious similarly to Walt Disney.)

    Perhaps, the first blacks who moved to Detroit were the smarter and more capable ones, but still it would have been impossible not to make observations. Blacks in the North were problematic, even when they were a small population, judging by historical newspapers – which often presented their criminal cases as entertainment pieces.

    Maybe, it was in part because he was born a hick, but Ford could be heavily implicated in the destruction of Detroit. Sort of interesting because he saw cities as rotting dens of corruption and predicted that industry would move into rural areas.

    Another interesting idea he had was that planes would revolutionize the labor market and teams of men would be flown where they were needed, crisscrossing the country. If he had only known that the planes would be used to bring in hordes of unemployable hostile men who were looking to settle in the West and that many Jews would be cheerleading the process.

  561. @utu
    @German_reader


    It may have already reached its peak.
     
    Quite the opposite. The haggadah of Holocaust will continue being constructed and reinforced. Less eyewitnesses the better for the story.

    After 522 Years, Spain Seeks To Make Amends For Expulsion Of Jews
    https://www.npr.org/sections/parallels/2014/12/25/371866778/after-522-years-spain-seeks-to-make-amends-for-expulsion-of-jews

    Replies: @utu, @DFH

    Portugal Offers Restitution To Descendants Of Jews Persecuted During Inquisition
    https://jewishbusinessnews.com/2015/02/02/portugal-offers-restitution-to-descendants-of-jews-persecuted-during-inquisition/

    Portugal is seeking to make restitution for its treatment of Jews during the Inquisition by offering citizenship to anyone who can prove they are descendants of the Sephardic Jews who were either killed or driven out of the country 500 years ago, Examiner.com said.

    • Replies: @Epigon
    @utu

    Why would anyone who could track his lineage 500 yours ago want to have a Portuguese citizenship? Possibly worst reparations ever.

    Replies: @German_reader

  562. @German_reader
    @utu


    Irving work could lead to sealing the artificial cracks created for propaganda purposes by Anglo-Americans Jews and Soviets in the fabric of European identity.
     
    That's an illusion. The resentment against Germany in most European countries isn't based just on American, Soviet or Jewish propaganda. It has a factual basis in German actions during WW2, which in many cases were of an undeniably criminal nature. No amount of revisionism (unless it's just propaganda itself) will ever make the deliberate mass killings of Polish elites or the massacres of civilians during anti-partisan operations look good, nor are Heydrich's musings about the need to deport half of all Czechs ever likely to inspire much sympathy in the Czech republic. This isn't necessarily linked to pro-American or pro-Jewish attitudes either. Greeks are highly anti-American (and supposedly also quite antisemitic, if one can trust the polls commissioned by Jewish organizations), but they still resent Germany because of the massacres and the cultural vandalism during the German occupation.
    It's also convenient for everybody else to lay sole responsibility for everything that went wrong during the 1914-1945 era on Germany (the issue isn't limited to WW2, Germany's WW1 war guilt is still an article of faith for many). You can see this even with Italians who get to claim that they were always just brava gente, fundamentally decent folk (even when they dropped mustard gas on Ethiopians), unlike the uniquely evil Teutons (and who find a ready audience for that view, as demonstrated by AK's "Mussolini did nothing wrong" article). German evil is a great foil for one's own humanity or heroism.
    And there is also zero prospect of revisionism ever gaining ground in Germany itself (which is clearly in a terminal phase as a nation and has devolved into complete infantilism). A few years ago, when I still watched television, I watched some stupid talk show. One of the guests was Serdar Somuncu, a Turkish-born "comedian" who has made a career of lecturing Germans about the Nazi past (something to which he has no personal connection, since his kind wasn't here back then). Somuncu suggested Germans shouldn't mourn for German WW2 dead at all, but only for the victims of Nazi crimes. No one objected, apparently everyone agreed. That kind of attitude is typical of today's Germany.

    Replies: @utu, @Epigon

    Greeks are highly anti-American (and supposedly also quite antisemitic, if one can trust the polls commissioned by Jewish organizations)

    Greeks are a joke of a nation. An Orthodox Christian puppet of Anglican English, and later on, atlanticist Americans. Since WW2, every single Greek government was an Atlanticist puppet.
    Greek Orthodox Church is a tool, and divided inside – their nominal hierarchs are despised by monks and priests.
    They have football Ultras that are unironically far left.

    They go for a riot, anti-austerity, anti-neoliberalism and all that jazz, and then elect a complete American stooge and Soros plant – “leftist” Tsipras, and that obnoxious ‘tard Varoufakis, who immediately do exactly what people were protesting against – and no problem! Well, of course, because that whole affair was American orchestrated to weaken EU, Germany and German banks, not expression of Greek sovereignity and popular will. Macedonia issue springs up – people protest, 70% of public against – government decides in favour of it – no problem. In Macedonia, referendum fails – again, atlanticists couldn’t care less.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    @Epigon

    The Greek government approached Washington, Beijing, and Moscow for assistance.

    All three told the Greeks that they were unwilling to go against the wishes of Berlin in what they perceived to be Germany's sphere of influence. The Chinese went so far as to suspend planned investments into Greece at Berlin's request.

    The American Treasury Secretary repeatedly pleaded with the Germans to stop ruining the Eurozone to no avail.

    Tsipras is an idiot but there was no American plot to weaken the Euro.

    Replies: @LondonBob, @Epigon

    , @utu
    @Epigon

    And what is your opinion on Greek sheep guard dogs? How do they compare to sheep guard dogs in other Balkan countries?

    Replies: @Epigon

  563. @utu
    @utu

    Portugal Offers Restitution To Descendants Of Jews Persecuted During Inquisition
    https://jewishbusinessnews.com/2015/02/02/portugal-offers-restitution-to-descendants-of-jews-persecuted-during-inquisition/

    Portugal is seeking to make restitution for its treatment of Jews during the Inquisition by offering citizenship to anyone who can prove they are descendants of the Sephardic Jews who were either killed or driven out of the country 500 years ago, Examiner.com said.

    Replies: @Epigon

    Why would anyone who could track his lineage 500 yours ago want to have a Portuguese citizenship? Possibly worst reparations ever.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @Epigon


    Why would anyone who could track his lineage 500 yours ago want to have a Portuguese citizenship?
     
    Gives access to the EU, allows free travel and residence in much of Europe.

    Replies: @utu

  564. And Germany is in no way as helpless and subservient to USA as some make it out to be.
    UČK/KLA was still a terrorist organisation in the USA (official list) when BND was already sending operatives and advisors, weapons, effecting an uprising.

    More importantly, BND was smuggling weapons to Croatia and Slovenia in 1990, and the Kohl/Genscher efforts and lobbying for Yugoslav separatists and their recognition, pressure upon French (buckled last) was independent foreign policy – more precisely – against Atlanticist wishes. In the process, they violated UN charter, Helsinki accords and all manner of international agreements and principles – which would in time serve as a rallying point for anti-West sentiment throughout the world – a generation of Russian and Chinese future power brokers was raised during the 1990s when the Western abuse was the worst.

  565. @utu
    @German_reader


    It may have already reached its peak.
     
    Quite the opposite. The haggadah of Holocaust will continue being constructed and reinforced. Less eyewitnesses the better for the story.

    After 522 Years, Spain Seeks To Make Amends For Expulsion Of Jews
    https://www.npr.org/sections/parallels/2014/12/25/371866778/after-522-years-spain-seeks-to-make-amends-for-expulsion-of-jews

    Replies: @utu, @DFH

    Have Jews apologised for anything ever?

    Murdering Christ would be a good place to start.

    • Replies: @utu
    @DFH

    Google does not give any hits. But I found this:

    To Whom Should the Jews Apologize? by Jerzy Robert Nowak
    https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/44023607-to-whom-should-the-jews-apologize

    Replies: @DFH

    , @for-the-record
    @DFH

    Have Jews apologised for anything ever?

    For the "mistake" of sinking the USS Liberty.

  566. @Epigon
    @utu

    Why would anyone who could track his lineage 500 yours ago want to have a Portuguese citizenship? Possibly worst reparations ever.

    Replies: @German_reader

    Why would anyone who could track his lineage 500 yours ago want to have a Portuguese citizenship?

    Gives access to the EU, allows free travel and residence in much of Europe.

    • Replies: @utu
    @German_reader

    Portugal and Spain have given 10,000 passports to people claiming Sephardic roots
    https://www.jta.org/2018/11/23/global/portugal-spain-gave-10000-passports-sephardic-new-citizens-since-2015

    Passports have man uses for Israel:

    2004 Israel–New Zealand passport scandal
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_Israel–New_Zealand_passport_scandal

  567. @German_reader
    @Epigon


    Why would anyone who could track his lineage 500 yours ago want to have a Portuguese citizenship?
     
    Gives access to the EU, allows free travel and residence in much of Europe.

    Replies: @utu

    Portugal and Spain have given 10,000 passports to people claiming Sephardic roots
    https://www.jta.org/2018/11/23/global/portugal-spain-gave-10000-passports-sephardic-new-citizens-since-2015

    Passports have man uses for Israel:

    2004 Israel–New Zealand passport scandal
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_Israel–New_Zealand_passport_scandal

  568. @DFH
    @utu

    Have Jews apologised for anything ever?

    Murdering Christ would be a good place to start.

    Replies: @utu, @for-the-record

    Google does not give any hits. But I found this:

    To Whom Should the Jews Apologize? by Jerzy Robert Nowak
    https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/44023607-to-whom-should-the-jews-apologize

    • Replies: @DFH
    @utu

    Lol, he is not even Jewish, just a very audacious Catholic pole

    He wrote an article called ' Za co Żydzi muszą przeprosić Polaków' or 'Why Jews must apologise to Poles'.

    His other books include 'What Poland has given the world' and one whose description reads 'The cultural Marxist war against the Catholic Church in Poland'


    He has been accused of antisemitism by various liberal intellectuals as well as by the Polish Club of Catholic Intelligentsia and some Catholic clerics (including Archbishop Józef Życiński)
    His research and publications are centered on anti-Polonism and Polish-Jewish history and relations.
     
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerzy_Robert_Nowak

    The Polish version of the article is even better. He wrote a book exposing the lies of a Jewish historian about Jedwabane and the town granted him honorary citizenship. He also criticised Jewish writer Gyorgy Spiro for anti-Polonism, resulting in Spiro being prevented from presenting his book or doing research in Poland.

    Unironically based and redpilled.

    Replies: @utu

  569. @Epigon
    @German_reader


    Greeks are highly anti-American (and supposedly also quite antisemitic, if one can trust the polls commissioned by Jewish organizations)
     
    Greeks are a joke of a nation. An Orthodox Christian puppet of Anglican English, and later on, atlanticist Americans. Since WW2, every single Greek government was an Atlanticist puppet.
    Greek Orthodox Church is a tool, and divided inside - their nominal hierarchs are despised by monks and priests.
    They have football Ultras that are unironically far left.

    They go for a riot, anti-austerity, anti-neoliberalism and all that jazz, and then elect a complete American stooge and Soros plant - “leftist” Tsipras, and that obnoxious ‘tard Varoufakis, who immediately do exactly what people were protesting against - and no problem! Well, of course, because that whole affair was American orchestrated to weaken EU, Germany and German banks, not expression of Greek sovereignity and popular will. Macedonia issue springs up - people protest, 70% of public against - government decides in favour of it - no problem. In Macedonia, referendum fails - again, atlanticists couldn’t care less.

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson, @utu

    The Greek government approached Washington, Beijing, and Moscow for assistance.

    All three told the Greeks that they were unwilling to go against the wishes of Berlin in what they perceived to be Germany’s sphere of influence. The Chinese went so far as to suspend planned investments into Greece at Berlin’s request.

    The American Treasury Secretary repeatedly pleaded with the Germans to stop ruining the Eurozone to no avail.

    Tsipras is an idiot but there was no American plot to weaken the Euro.

    • Replies: @LondonBob
    @Thorfinnsson

    Hilary's son in law Mevzinsky started a hedge fund whose purpose was to invest in Greek stocks and debt, implying that the Clinton people thought Greece would be rescued.

    , @Epigon
    @Thorfinnsson

    Why would Moscow or Beijing help Greece? You would have Russia sink money into a NATO, EU nation which elects American stooge after American stooge, and ends up with litteral Soros "left" of Syriza?

    In case you aren't aware, a direct quote from Andrey Klimov - "Greece has never been our partner or ally in Europe. Greece is part of NATO, and that alone is enough". This is an important historical claim, and a very important one taking the events of 1878 and 1913 into account.
    Greece has been instrumental in EU and NATO integration of Bulgaria and Romania, as well.

    Russian unwillingness to aid Greece has been vindicated by Greeks jumping on board of Skripal poisoning nonsense, as well as "Russian meddling" meme by expelling 4 Russian diplomats and publicly calling out Russians for "bribing Atos monks (!)", or by Greece extraditing Russians to Ukraine.

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson

  570. @Epigon
    @German_reader


    Greeks are highly anti-American (and supposedly also quite antisemitic, if one can trust the polls commissioned by Jewish organizations)
     
    Greeks are a joke of a nation. An Orthodox Christian puppet of Anglican English, and later on, atlanticist Americans. Since WW2, every single Greek government was an Atlanticist puppet.
    Greek Orthodox Church is a tool, and divided inside - their nominal hierarchs are despised by monks and priests.
    They have football Ultras that are unironically far left.

    They go for a riot, anti-austerity, anti-neoliberalism and all that jazz, and then elect a complete American stooge and Soros plant - “leftist” Tsipras, and that obnoxious ‘tard Varoufakis, who immediately do exactly what people were protesting against - and no problem! Well, of course, because that whole affair was American orchestrated to weaken EU, Germany and German banks, not expression of Greek sovereignity and popular will. Macedonia issue springs up - people protest, 70% of public against - government decides in favour of it - no problem. In Macedonia, referendum fails - again, atlanticists couldn’t care less.

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson, @utu

    And what is your opinion on Greek sheep guard dogs? How do they compare to sheep guard dogs in other Balkan countries?

    • Replies: @Epigon
    @utu

    Šarplaninac and Serbian Defense Dog > lesser breeds

  571. @utu
    @DFH

    Google does not give any hits. But I found this:

    To Whom Should the Jews Apologize? by Jerzy Robert Nowak
    https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/44023607-to-whom-should-the-jews-apologize

    Replies: @DFH

    Lol, he is not even Jewish, just a very audacious Catholic pole

    He wrote an article called ‘ Za co Żydzi muszą przeprosić Polaków’ or ‘Why Jews must apologise to Poles’.

    His other books include ‘What Poland has given the world’ and one whose description reads ‘The cultural Marxist war against the Catholic Church in Poland’

    He has been accused of antisemitism by various liberal intellectuals as well as by the Polish Club of Catholic Intelligentsia and some Catholic clerics (including Archbishop Józef Życiński)
    His research and publications are centered on anti-Polonism and Polish-Jewish history and relations.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerzy_Robert_Nowak

    The Polish version of the article is even better. He wrote a book exposing the lies of a Jewish historian about Jedwabane and the town granted him honorary citizenship. He also criticised Jewish writer Gyorgy Spiro for anti-Polonism, resulting in Spiro being prevented from presenting his book or doing research in Poland.

    Unironically based and redpilled.

    • Replies: @utu
    @DFH

    Dr. Ewa Kurek: JEDWABNE – ANATOMY OF DECEPTION
    http://www.poloniainstitute.net/history-of-poland/jedwabne-anatomy-of-deception/

    Why Jews are afraid of the truth? Historical truth by Ph.D. Ewa Kurek! (Very powerful)
    https://gloria.tv/video/pVw8f8RHTbBF4P8gBPQEjv9iS

    Replies: @German_reader

  572. • Replies: @bb.
    @utu

    i mean, maybe the israelis are just good at media and pr? the same guy did work for FPO in Austria, hardly in line with Caputovas globo-homo agenda. Everything for the shekel ei

    Replies: @utu

  573. @Thorfinnsson
    @Epigon

    The Greek government approached Washington, Beijing, and Moscow for assistance.

    All three told the Greeks that they were unwilling to go against the wishes of Berlin in what they perceived to be Germany's sphere of influence. The Chinese went so far as to suspend planned investments into Greece at Berlin's request.

    The American Treasury Secretary repeatedly pleaded with the Germans to stop ruining the Eurozone to no avail.

    Tsipras is an idiot but there was no American plot to weaken the Euro.

    Replies: @LondonBob, @Epigon

    Hilary’s son in law Mevzinsky started a hedge fund whose purpose was to invest in Greek stocks and debt, implying that the Clinton people thought Greece would be rescued.

  574. @DFH
    @utu

    Lol, he is not even Jewish, just a very audacious Catholic pole

    He wrote an article called ' Za co Żydzi muszą przeprosić Polaków' or 'Why Jews must apologise to Poles'.

    His other books include 'What Poland has given the world' and one whose description reads 'The cultural Marxist war against the Catholic Church in Poland'


    He has been accused of antisemitism by various liberal intellectuals as well as by the Polish Club of Catholic Intelligentsia and some Catholic clerics (including Archbishop Józef Życiński)
    His research and publications are centered on anti-Polonism and Polish-Jewish history and relations.
     
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerzy_Robert_Nowak

    The Polish version of the article is even better. He wrote a book exposing the lies of a Jewish historian about Jedwabane and the town granted him honorary citizenship. He also criticised Jewish writer Gyorgy Spiro for anti-Polonism, resulting in Spiro being prevented from presenting his book or doing research in Poland.

    Unironically based and redpilled.

    Replies: @utu

    Dr. Ewa Kurek: JEDWABNE – ANATOMY OF DECEPTION
    http://www.poloniainstitute.net/history-of-poland/jedwabne-anatomy-of-deception/

    Why Jews are afraid of the truth? Historical truth by Ph.D. Ewa Kurek! (Very powerful)
    https://gloria.tv/video/pVw8f8RHTbBF4P8gBPQEjv9iS

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @utu


    Dr. Ewa Kurek: JEDWABNE – ANATOMY OF DECEPTION
    http://www.poloniainstitute.net/history-of-poland/jedwabne-anatomy-of-deception/
     
    Sounds like hysterical trash tbh.
    Of course she has to bring up this

    for the Germans it was and is a tool to show Poles as partners in shared responsibility for the genocide of the Jews conducted by the Germans in Poland. Exhumation of the remains of Jews murdered in Jedwabne, and detailed study of historical events of July 1941, will remove from Germans and Jews once and for all the unfair weapons to fight Poland and Poles.
     
    which is just the usual Polish paranoia that is getting very tiresome. There is no organized German campaign to depict Poles as Holocaust co-perpetrators. It's something that only exists in the imagination of Polish nationalists.

    Replies: @utu, @Matra

  575. German_reader says:
    @utu
    @DFH

    Dr. Ewa Kurek: JEDWABNE – ANATOMY OF DECEPTION
    http://www.poloniainstitute.net/history-of-poland/jedwabne-anatomy-of-deception/

    Why Jews are afraid of the truth? Historical truth by Ph.D. Ewa Kurek! (Very powerful)
    https://gloria.tv/video/pVw8f8RHTbBF4P8gBPQEjv9iS

    Replies: @German_reader

    Dr. Ewa Kurek: JEDWABNE – ANATOMY OF DECEPTION
    http://www.poloniainstitute.net/history-of-poland/jedwabne-anatomy-of-deception/

    Sounds like hysterical trash tbh.
    Of course she has to bring up this

    for the Germans it was and is a tool to show Poles as partners in shared responsibility for the genocide of the Jews conducted by the Germans in Poland. Exhumation of the remains of Jews murdered in Jedwabne, and detailed study of historical events of July 1941, will remove from Germans and Jews once and for all the unfair weapons to fight Poland and Poles.

    which is just the usual Polish paranoia that is getting very tiresome. There is no organized German campaign to depict Poles as Holocaust co-perpetrators. It’s something that only exists in the imagination of Polish nationalists.

    • Replies: @utu
    @German_reader


    There is no organized German campaign to depict Poles as Holocaust co-perpetrators.
     
    Actually you are right. All Jews were murdered only by your immediate family who were 100% German to the n-th generation and nobody else was involved and if anybody thinks or says otherwise you will take them to court for dishonoring the honor of your murderous family. Germans are the most honorable murderers who would never shift the blame on anybody else.

    Replies: @German_reader

    , @Matra
    @German_reader

    There is no organized German campaign to depict Poles as Holocaust co-perpetrators. It’s something that only exists in the imagination of Polish nationalists.

    There is almost certainly an organised campaign to depict Poles as Holocaust co-perpetrators, however it is obviously not Germans who are leading it. This campaign is modelled on a similar campaign that began in the late 80s and early 90s against Switzerland that eventually led to that country being subjected to a very well organised and, sadly, successful shakedown from the highest levels of the US government. Angelo Codevilla wrote about this in his excellent book Between the Alps and a Hard Place as did Norman Finkelstein in The Holocaust Industry. I think the Poles are currently being tested for weakness. Polish provincialism - so typical of conservative people - combined with their sycophantic relationship with the US (and Israel) probably makes them look like an easy mark for a Swiss-style shakedown.

  576. @Thorfinnsson
    @Epigon

    The Greek government approached Washington, Beijing, and Moscow for assistance.

    All three told the Greeks that they were unwilling to go against the wishes of Berlin in what they perceived to be Germany's sphere of influence. The Chinese went so far as to suspend planned investments into Greece at Berlin's request.

    The American Treasury Secretary repeatedly pleaded with the Germans to stop ruining the Eurozone to no avail.

    Tsipras is an idiot but there was no American plot to weaken the Euro.

    Replies: @LondonBob, @Epigon

    Why would Moscow or Beijing help Greece? You would have Russia sink money into a NATO, EU nation which elects American stooge after American stooge, and ends up with litteral Soros “left” of Syriza?

    In case you aren’t aware, a direct quote from Andrey Klimov – “Greece has never been our partner or ally in Europe. Greece is part of NATO, and that alone is enough”. This is an important historical claim, and a very important one taking the events of 1878 and 1913 into account.
    Greece has been instrumental in EU and NATO integration of Bulgaria and Romania, as well.

    Russian unwillingness to aid Greece has been vindicated by Greeks jumping on board of Skripal poisoning nonsense, as well as “Russian meddling” meme by expelling 4 Russian diplomats and publicly calling out Russians for “bribing Atos monks (!)”, or by Greece extraditing Russians to Ukraine.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    @Epigon

    Beijing was interested in Greek port facilities and related infrastructure. This has since been revived--the Piraeus port authority is now owned by COSCO.

    As for Moscow, I can't find a reason why Moscow should assist Greece financially. I suppose there's always South Stream, and who knows what Tsipras was pitching. In any case Putin told him that he had to go through Berlin.

    Moscow also pours money into black holes on occasion. Rosneft has poured billions into Venezuela it will never see again.

    Anyhow the original point here is that the Germans are the ones who wrecked the Eurozone, not Washington.

    Replies: @Mitleser

  577. @utu
    @Epigon

    And what is your opinion on Greek sheep guard dogs? How do they compare to sheep guard dogs in other Balkan countries?

    Replies: @Epigon

    Šarplaninac and Serbian Defense Dog > lesser breeds

  578. @German_reader
    @utu


    Dr. Ewa Kurek: JEDWABNE – ANATOMY OF DECEPTION
    http://www.poloniainstitute.net/history-of-poland/jedwabne-anatomy-of-deception/
     
    Sounds like hysterical trash tbh.
    Of course she has to bring up this

    for the Germans it was and is a tool to show Poles as partners in shared responsibility for the genocide of the Jews conducted by the Germans in Poland. Exhumation of the remains of Jews murdered in Jedwabne, and detailed study of historical events of July 1941, will remove from Germans and Jews once and for all the unfair weapons to fight Poland and Poles.
     
    which is just the usual Polish paranoia that is getting very tiresome. There is no organized German campaign to depict Poles as Holocaust co-perpetrators. It's something that only exists in the imagination of Polish nationalists.

    Replies: @utu, @Matra

    There is no organized German campaign to depict Poles as Holocaust co-perpetrators.

    Actually you are right. All Jews were murdered only by your immediate family who were 100% German to the n-th generation and nobody else was involved and if anybody thinks or says otherwise you will take them to court for dishonoring the honor of your murderous family. Germans are the most honorable murderers who would never shift the blame on anybody else.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @utu


    All Jews were murdered only by your immediate family who were 100% German to the n-th generation and nobody else was involved
     
    That's what this Kurek woman whom you just lauded enthusiastically would say, so I don't see your point.
    There just isn't a German campaign to shift Holocaust responsibility on Poles. It's a made-up claim by Polish right-wingers so can live out their anti-German obsessions and feel all righteous about it. If you asked them for evidence, they'd bring up a few sloppy newspaper articles referring to "Polish camps", and not much else.

    Replies: @AP, @utu

  579. German_reader says:
    @utu
    @German_reader


    There is no organized German campaign to depict Poles as Holocaust co-perpetrators.
     
    Actually you are right. All Jews were murdered only by your immediate family who were 100% German to the n-th generation and nobody else was involved and if anybody thinks or says otherwise you will take them to court for dishonoring the honor of your murderous family. Germans are the most honorable murderers who would never shift the blame on anybody else.

    Replies: @German_reader

    All Jews were murdered only by your immediate family who were 100% German to the n-th generation and nobody else was involved

    That’s what this Kurek woman whom you just lauded enthusiastically would say, so I don’t see your point.
    There just isn’t a German campaign to shift Holocaust responsibility on Poles. It’s a made-up claim by Polish right-wingers so can live out their anti-German obsessions and feel all righteous about it. If you asked them for evidence, they’d bring up a few sloppy newspaper articles referring to “Polish camps”, and not much else.

    • Replies: @AP
    @German_reader

    Ukrainians say the same about Germans. Amnestied their own Nazis but then prosecuted the Red Army veteran John Demjanjuk whom they essentially forced into service. The public prosecution of this man was seen as shifting the blame - see, everyone was involved, not just us.

    Pat Buchanan took a break form praising modern Russia to write this:

    https://buchanan.org/blog/pjb-the-true-haters-1495#more-1495

    Demjanjuk is to be taken to Germany and prosecuted as an accessory to the murder of 29,000 Jews at Sobibor — though not one living person can place him at that camp and not even the German prosecutor will say that he ever hurt anyone. One witness in Israel, who was at Sobibor and says he knew all the camp guards, says he never saw Demjanjuk there.

    If Friday’s ruling is upheld, John Demjanjuk, who has been charged with no crime on German soil, is to be taken to Germany, home of the Third Reich, to be tried by Germans for his alleged role in a genocide planned and perpetrated by Germans. He is to serve as the sacrificial lamb whose blood washes away the stain of Germany’s sins.

    But if Germans wish to prosecute participants in the Holocaust, why not round up some old big-time Nazis, instead of a Ukrainian POW.

    Answer: They cannot. Because the Germans voted an amnesty for themselves in 1969. So now they must find a Slav soldier they captured — and Heinrich Himmler’s SS conscripted and made a camp guard, if he ever was a camp guard — to punish in expiation for Germany’s sins.

    Replies: @German_reader, @songbird, @Matra

    , @utu
    @German_reader

    I agree that outwardly "There is no organized German campaign to depict Poles as Holocaust co-perpetrators." but there are undercurrents of insinuations and innuendos. Poles are irritated by the semantic game played by Germans when all the perpetrators became Nazis of unknown origin and nationality and that Germans considers themselves to be the first victims of those alien Nazis and then in the Jewish narrative who adopted this German semantic replacement the perpetrators are some unknown Nazis and very well known Poles. Recently Andrea Mitchel of NBC in Warsaw Ghetto said:

    Poland Wants Correction After NBC’s Andrea Mitchell Says Warsaw Ghetto Uprising Was Against ‘Polish and Nazi Regime’
    https://www.haaretz.com/world-news/europe/poland-wants-correction-of-journalists-polish-and-nazi-regime-statement-1.6938221

    The Concentration camps can't be officially called German camps while commonly they are referred to as Polish camps. Poles were upset by some parts of the miniseries "Unsere Mütter, unsere Väter" whee Polish partisans were shown only as antisemites. BTW, in Polish unsere=nasi so Poles twisted the title to Nazi Mothers and Nazi Fathers.

    Anyway you have tendency to concentrate on unimportant minutiae (Ewa Kurek talked about more important issues than what you picked.) because you do not want to face bigger issues. Keep in mind that Poland is fighting for its life right now with respect to Jewish financial claims and people are confused because their government is not straight with them. For instance somebody in the government came up with a 'brilliant' idea of demanding reparations from Germany. It is a very cynical move to awaken in an average Poles greed and a Jewish spirit of vindictiveness so they would become more understanding and sympathetic to Jewish claims. But the claim against Germany is just a bluff and nobody sane believes that they are made in a good faith but I am sure they are upsetting to Germans. It is just a posturing of the pathetic Polish government to manipulate their confused subjects on behalf of Jews. Imho Poland's only chance is to be on a very good terms with Germany and they are blowing it.

    Many years ago when the communism was collapsing and finally people could talk about history I was learning some alternative narratives of WWII that were more congruent with my family histories (that included Auschwitz, Moabit, other KL's in Germany and even with Gulag) I had a dream that there was window of opportunity that Poland together with Germany could rectify some of its history (after all there were archives in Poland no longer in control by communist and many witnesses still alive), thet history that was distorted in early years after WWII however quickly I found out that most Poles and most Germans are idiots and cucks like yourself and they do not want any rectification. German cucks like yourself want tow wallow in guilt forever and and do not want to share blame with anybody and most Poles want to play the innocent victims like Jews and the Jews want to be above it all and keep laughing all the way to the bank. I had a silly hope that Poles could help to absolve Germans from some of their guilt but apparently I must be an idiot as well.

    Replies: @German_reader

  580. AP says:
    @German_reader
    @utu


    All Jews were murdered only by your immediate family who were 100% German to the n-th generation and nobody else was involved
     
    That's what this Kurek woman whom you just lauded enthusiastically would say, so I don't see your point.
    There just isn't a German campaign to shift Holocaust responsibility on Poles. It's a made-up claim by Polish right-wingers so can live out their anti-German obsessions and feel all righteous about it. If you asked them for evidence, they'd bring up a few sloppy newspaper articles referring to "Polish camps", and not much else.

    Replies: @AP, @utu

    Ukrainians say the same about Germans. Amnestied their own Nazis but then prosecuted the Red Army veteran John Demjanjuk whom they essentially forced into service. The public prosecution of this man was seen as shifting the blame – see, everyone was involved, not just us.

    Pat Buchanan took a break form praising modern Russia to write this:

    https://buchanan.org/blog/pjb-the-true-haters-1495#more-1495

    Demjanjuk is to be taken to Germany and prosecuted as an accessory to the murder of 29,000 Jews at Sobibor — though not one living person can place him at that camp and not even the German prosecutor will say that he ever hurt anyone. One witness in Israel, who was at Sobibor and says he knew all the camp guards, says he never saw Demjanjuk there.

    If Friday’s ruling is upheld, John Demjanjuk, who has been charged with no crime on German soil, is to be taken to Germany, home of the Third Reich, to be tried by Germans for his alleged role in a genocide planned and perpetrated by Germans. He is to serve as the sacrificial lamb whose blood washes away the stain of Germany’s sins.

    But if Germans wish to prosecute participants in the Holocaust, why not round up some old big-time Nazis, instead of a Ukrainian POW.

    Answer: They cannot. Because the Germans voted an amnesty for themselves in 1969. So now they must find a Slav soldier they captured — and Heinrich Himmler’s SS conscripted and made a camp guard, if he ever was a camp guard — to punish in expiation for Germany’s sins.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @AP


    Because the Germans voted an amnesty for themselves in 1969.
     
    Incorrect, exactly the opposite of what happened. In fact the statute of limitations for murder (which had previously been 20 years) was removed after intense debate, exactly because of the need to prosecute Nazi perpetrators:
    https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verj%C3%A4hrungsdebatte#Die_Verj%C3%A4hrungsdebatte_vom_26._Juni_1969

    Of course even many high-ranking German Nazi perpetrators were never really punished, but there were investigations and trials of German perpetrators, even recently:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oskar_Gr%C3%B6ning#Criminal_charges_and_trial

    I think the Demjanjuk case was a travesty and it was problematic that German prosecutors charged him. But on the other hand, Ukrainians shouldn't complain too much. Ukrainian collaborators did go on an enthusiastic Jew-hunt in Lviv in 1941 after all, and unlike Demjanjuk they weren't under any compulsion to do so.

    Replies: @reiner Tor

    , @songbird
    @AP

    I like Buchanan, but the idea that political establishment of Germany is seeking expiation for its sins seems crazy. Antinazism is in their blood. It was planted during the occupation, put through the harshest tests of evolutionary selection (politics) and found to be a useful tool to attain power.

    BTW, Germans have been so thoroughly endoctrinated, I wouldn't be surprised if the cuckiest 10% would commit suicide, if asked by an African. (3% would probably kill their fellows, then commit suicide, like at Jonestown.)

    , @Matra
    @AP

    Pat Buchanan took a break form praising modern Russia to write this

    Your snarky remark aside Buchanan was backing Demjanjuk way back in the 1980s and was clear at the time that the Soviets were framing him. He did this at some cost to himself as he was regularly smeared in US media for doing so. PB was also one of the few western pundits at the time to regularly mentioned the "captured nations" of the USSR. But I guess that's not enough for some Eastern European nationalists with their passionate attachments to foreign states.

    Replies: @AP

  581. German_reader says:
    @AP
    @German_reader

    Ukrainians say the same about Germans. Amnestied their own Nazis but then prosecuted the Red Army veteran John Demjanjuk whom they essentially forced into service. The public prosecution of this man was seen as shifting the blame - see, everyone was involved, not just us.

    Pat Buchanan took a break form praising modern Russia to write this:

    https://buchanan.org/blog/pjb-the-true-haters-1495#more-1495

    Demjanjuk is to be taken to Germany and prosecuted as an accessory to the murder of 29,000 Jews at Sobibor — though not one living person can place him at that camp and not even the German prosecutor will say that he ever hurt anyone. One witness in Israel, who was at Sobibor and says he knew all the camp guards, says he never saw Demjanjuk there.

    If Friday’s ruling is upheld, John Demjanjuk, who has been charged with no crime on German soil, is to be taken to Germany, home of the Third Reich, to be tried by Germans for his alleged role in a genocide planned and perpetrated by Germans. He is to serve as the sacrificial lamb whose blood washes away the stain of Germany’s sins.

    But if Germans wish to prosecute participants in the Holocaust, why not round up some old big-time Nazis, instead of a Ukrainian POW.

    Answer: They cannot. Because the Germans voted an amnesty for themselves in 1969. So now they must find a Slav soldier they captured — and Heinrich Himmler’s SS conscripted and made a camp guard, if he ever was a camp guard — to punish in expiation for Germany’s sins.

    Replies: @German_reader, @songbird, @Matra

    Because the Germans voted an amnesty for themselves in 1969.

    Incorrect, exactly the opposite of what happened. In fact the statute of limitations for murder (which had previously been 20 years) was removed after intense debate, exactly because of the need to prosecute Nazi perpetrators:
    https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verj%C3%A4hrungsdebatte#Die_Verj%C3%A4hrungsdebatte_vom_26._Juni_1969

    Of course even many high-ranking German Nazi perpetrators were never really punished, but there were investigations and trials of German perpetrators, even recently:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oskar_Gr%C3%B6ning#Criminal_charges_and_trial

    I think the Demjanjuk case was a travesty and it was problematic that German prosecutors charged him. But on the other hand, Ukrainians shouldn’t complain too much. Ukrainian collaborators did go on an enthusiastic Jew-hunt in Lviv in 1941 after all, and unlike Demjanjuk they weren’t under any compulsion to do so.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @German_reader

    Ukraine could've accepted Demjanjuk if they wanted to spare him the indignity of the trial in Germany. It was the case that he couldn't be deported from the US for years because he was stateless and no country was willing to accept him. Then, years later, some German prosecutor came up with the idea that he could be prosecuted, and got the green light. Then they used his case as a kind of a precedent (German law is not based on precedent, but still prosecutors will look to past court decisions as a kind of guideline what they can do) to start prosecuting dozens of German nonagenarians, for example an accountant from Auschwitz. The accountant was forced to tell stupid lies, which is quite a bit of an indignity, he had to say he had no idea what was going on in Auschwitz. I mean, this was a bloody war, and he was probably happy that he wasn't sent to the front, nor did he have to do anything gruesome, just accounting. Of course he knew what the camp was for. Everyone knew. So what. Jewish leaders in Hungary in 1944 knew, but kept spreading the lies to the Jewish community that they were going to be settled in an agricultural area where food was more readily available. Eventually the charges were dropped against most of them, though their contribution was probably greater than that of this accountant. The Jewish leaders had the same motivation as the accountant: they all wanted to survive. Jewish Council membership was better than being shot or sent to Auschwitz, and being an accountant in Auschwitz was better than being sent to the Eastern Front.

  582. @Epigon
    @Thorfinnsson

    Why would Moscow or Beijing help Greece? You would have Russia sink money into a NATO, EU nation which elects American stooge after American stooge, and ends up with litteral Soros "left" of Syriza?

    In case you aren't aware, a direct quote from Andrey Klimov - "Greece has never been our partner or ally in Europe. Greece is part of NATO, and that alone is enough". This is an important historical claim, and a very important one taking the events of 1878 and 1913 into account.
    Greece has been instrumental in EU and NATO integration of Bulgaria and Romania, as well.

    Russian unwillingness to aid Greece has been vindicated by Greeks jumping on board of Skripal poisoning nonsense, as well as "Russian meddling" meme by expelling 4 Russian diplomats and publicly calling out Russians for "bribing Atos monks (!)", or by Greece extraditing Russians to Ukraine.

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson

    Beijing was interested in Greek port facilities and related infrastructure. This has since been revived–the Piraeus port authority is now owned by COSCO.

    As for Moscow, I can’t find a reason why Moscow should assist Greece financially. I suppose there’s always South Stream, and who knows what Tsipras was pitching. In any case Putin told him that he had to go through Berlin.

    Moscow also pours money into black holes on occasion. Rosneft has poured billions into Venezuela it will never see again.

    Anyhow the original point here is that the Germans are the ones who wrecked the Eurozone, not Washington.

    • Replies: @Mitleser
    @Thorfinnsson


    Beijing was interested in Greek port facilities and related infrastructure. This has since been revived–the Piraeus port authority is now owned by COSCO.
     
    There is still time to sabotage COSCO's operations.

    https://twitter.com/nstamouli/status/1113564690251165702
  583. All those trials are gay and fake.
    If you didn’t sentence people like Quandt, Reimann, Krupp, Thyssen (joke sentences, ownership returned), the obnoxious Speer and others who organised, encouraged and/or profitted extremely from forced and slave labour, war economy (BASF, Bayer and other IGF successors), going after non-ethnic German auxiliaries is a travesty.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @Epigon


    the obnoxious Speer
     
    You may have a point in general, but Speer spent 20 years in prison.

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @Epigon

    , @reiner Tor
    @Epigon

    On the other hand, Speer was tried and received a light sentence from the Allies. I don’t think we can point fingers at Germans for not punishing him enough.

    But I agree that these trials against nonagenarians (regardless of ethnicity - many were/are Germans) were travesties. These people were nobodies back then anyway, and no specific crime can be pinned on them.

  584. @Epigon
    All those trials are gay and fake.
    If you didn't sentence people like Quandt, Reimann, Krupp, Thyssen (joke sentences, ownership returned), the obnoxious Speer and others who organised, encouraged and/or profitted extremely from forced and slave labour, war economy (BASF, Bayer and other IGF successors), going after non-ethnic German auxiliaries is a travesty.

    Replies: @German_reader, @reiner Tor

    the obnoxious Speer

    You may have a point in general, but Speer spent 20 years in prison.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @German_reader

    Interestingly at least one of his subordinates was sentenced to death by the very same court in the same trial for carrying out his orders.

    , @Epigon
    @German_reader

    Claiming to be a genius behind production increase and significant cost decrease (labour cost ~ 0) might have something to do with those unfortunate numbers of POW and forced laborer wartime deaths.

    Replies: @German_reader

  585. @Epigon
    All those trials are gay and fake.
    If you didn't sentence people like Quandt, Reimann, Krupp, Thyssen (joke sentences, ownership returned), the obnoxious Speer and others who organised, encouraged and/or profitted extremely from forced and slave labour, war economy (BASF, Bayer and other IGF successors), going after non-ethnic German auxiliaries is a travesty.

    Replies: @German_reader, @reiner Tor

    On the other hand, Speer was tried and received a light sentence from the Allies. I don’t think we can point fingers at Germans for not punishing him enough.

    But I agree that these trials against nonagenarians (regardless of ethnicity – many were/are Germans) were travesties. These people were nobodies back then anyway, and no specific crime can be pinned on them.

  586. @German_reader
    @Epigon


    the obnoxious Speer
     
    You may have a point in general, but Speer spent 20 years in prison.

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @Epigon

    Interestingly at least one of his subordinates was sentenced to death by the very same court in the same trial for carrying out his orders.

  587. @German_reader
    @Epigon


    the obnoxious Speer
     
    You may have a point in general, but Speer spent 20 years in prison.

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @Epigon

    Claiming to be a genius behind production increase and significant cost decrease (labour cost ~ 0) might have something to do with those unfortunate numbers of POW and forced laborer wartime deaths.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @Epigon

    I don't think my comment could be read as denying Speer's guilt. I merely stated that in his case at least you're wrong that there was no prosecution at all.

    Replies: @Epigon

  588. @AP
    @German_reader

    Ukrainians say the same about Germans. Amnestied their own Nazis but then prosecuted the Red Army veteran John Demjanjuk whom they essentially forced into service. The public prosecution of this man was seen as shifting the blame - see, everyone was involved, not just us.

    Pat Buchanan took a break form praising modern Russia to write this:

    https://buchanan.org/blog/pjb-the-true-haters-1495#more-1495

    Demjanjuk is to be taken to Germany and prosecuted as an accessory to the murder of 29,000 Jews at Sobibor — though not one living person can place him at that camp and not even the German prosecutor will say that he ever hurt anyone. One witness in Israel, who was at Sobibor and says he knew all the camp guards, says he never saw Demjanjuk there.

    If Friday’s ruling is upheld, John Demjanjuk, who has been charged with no crime on German soil, is to be taken to Germany, home of the Third Reich, to be tried by Germans for his alleged role in a genocide planned and perpetrated by Germans. He is to serve as the sacrificial lamb whose blood washes away the stain of Germany’s sins.

    But if Germans wish to prosecute participants in the Holocaust, why not round up some old big-time Nazis, instead of a Ukrainian POW.

    Answer: They cannot. Because the Germans voted an amnesty for themselves in 1969. So now they must find a Slav soldier they captured — and Heinrich Himmler’s SS conscripted and made a camp guard, if he ever was a camp guard — to punish in expiation for Germany’s sins.

    Replies: @German_reader, @songbird, @Matra

    I like Buchanan, but the idea that political establishment of Germany is seeking expiation for its sins seems crazy. Antinazism is in their blood. It was planted during the occupation, put through the harshest tests of evolutionary selection (politics) and found to be a useful tool to attain power.

    BTW, Germans have been so thoroughly endoctrinated, I wouldn’t be surprised if the cuckiest 10% would commit suicide, if asked by an African. (3% would probably kill their fellows, then commit suicide, like at Jonestown.)

  589. @Epigon
    @German_reader

    Claiming to be a genius behind production increase and significant cost decrease (labour cost ~ 0) might have something to do with those unfortunate numbers of POW and forced laborer wartime deaths.

    Replies: @German_reader

    I don’t think my comment could be read as denying Speer’s guilt. I merely stated that in his case at least you’re wrong that there was no prosecution at all.

    • Replies: @Epigon
    @German_reader

    Others were trialled as well, but walked away with no/light sentences (Krupp), and even had ownership and properties restored to them.
    It was NATO Cold War policy of 1950s, propping up West Germany and integrating Reich industrialists and officers.
    Like I have previously stated, Germany has numerous people and companies to prosecute before having to resort to Ukrainian conscripts, if indeed it is after justice and atonement.

    Going after 90 year olds while having descendants of Nazi slave labour industrialists and war profiteers worth tens of billions of euros is distasteful - as simple as that.

    Replies: @German_reader

  590. @German_reader
    @Thorfinnsson


    Perhaps its my transatlantic background
     
    I actually do think that plays a role. And maybe it's similar for other Americans with some ties to Europe.
    But I'm convinced many white Americans who really believe in American liberal mythology would cheerfully bomb any nationalist European regime that would use armed force to keep out migrants or even commit expulsions. They'd see it as part of a noble tradition, ranging from Lincoln's war against the South to free the slaves over WW2 (which was primarily about the Holocaust in this view) to the Kosovo war, fought on behalf of Muslims.

    What is now called “white nationalism” was the de facto American racial policy from the middle of the 17th century until the middle of the 20th century.
     
    If it had been as simple as that, black ex-slaves would never have been given political rights after the civil war (which is really strange if one thinks about it, has something like this ever happened anywhere else in world history?).
    I know American renaissance and other white nationalist publications push the line "Our views were totally mainstream not that long ago" (and of course leftie critics of "AmeriKKKa" agree), but to me it seems more like those issues were always controversial in American society, with a strong and increasingly dominant strain of extreme universalism present from quite early on.

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson, @for-the-record, @DFH

    If it had been as simple as that, black ex-slaves would never have been given political rights after the civil war

    Well, to a certain extent they weren’t, at least in the South. And when the US was fighting Nazi “racism”, blacks couldn’t eat in “white” restaurants in Washington, DC. On a national level, the US Armed Forces were of course also segregated (until 1948).

  591. @German_reader
    @Epigon

    I don't think my comment could be read as denying Speer's guilt. I merely stated that in his case at least you're wrong that there was no prosecution at all.

    Replies: @Epigon

    Others were trialled as well, but walked away with no/light sentences (Krupp), and even had ownership and properties restored to them.
    It was NATO Cold War policy of 1950s, propping up West Germany and integrating Reich industrialists and officers.
    Like I have previously stated, Germany has numerous people and companies to prosecute before having to resort to Ukrainian conscripts, if indeed it is after justice and atonement.

    Going after 90 year olds while having descendants of Nazi slave labour industrialists and war profiteers worth tens of billions of euros is distasteful – as simple as that.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @Epigon


    Like I have previously stated, Germany has numerous people and companies to prosecute before having to resort to Ukrainian conscripts
     
    The people involved are all dead by now.
    And frankly, one can overdo it with sympathy for John Demjanjuk. It's true that he was in an extremely difficult situation as a pow (though as far as I know, Ukrainians were in some ways often favored compared to Russians), but still, in all probability he was a guard at an extermination camp. That's a rather extreme form of collaboration.
    I'm also unaware that there were many other trials of such low-ranking non-German collaborators before German courts, so this discussion seems rather pointless to me.
  592. Since, Speer has been brought up, I must ask: is the allegation (made by Speer?) that Hitler had some sort of crush on him believable? I doubt it myself. Though I believe Mussolini called Hitler a pervert. There’s obviously been an attempt to emasculate him, ever since he came to power.

  593. @German_reader
    @Thorfinnsson


    Perhaps its my transatlantic background
     
    I actually do think that plays a role. And maybe it's similar for other Americans with some ties to Europe.
    But I'm convinced many white Americans who really believe in American liberal mythology would cheerfully bomb any nationalist European regime that would use armed force to keep out migrants or even commit expulsions. They'd see it as part of a noble tradition, ranging from Lincoln's war against the South to free the slaves over WW2 (which was primarily about the Holocaust in this view) to the Kosovo war, fought on behalf of Muslims.

    What is now called “white nationalism” was the de facto American racial policy from the middle of the 17th century until the middle of the 20th century.
     
    If it had been as simple as that, black ex-slaves would never have been given political rights after the civil war (which is really strange if one thinks about it, has something like this ever happened anywhere else in world history?).
    I know American renaissance and other white nationalist publications push the line "Our views were totally mainstream not that long ago" (and of course leftie critics of "AmeriKKKa" agree), but to me it seems more like those issues were always controversial in American society, with a strong and increasingly dominant strain of extreme universalism present from quite early on.

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson, @for-the-record, @DFH

    “Our views were totally mainstream not that long ago” (and of course leftie critics of “AmeriKKKa” agree), but to me it seems more like those issues were always controversial in American society, with a strong and increasingly dominant strain of extreme universalism present from quite early on.

    In the 1920s the citizenship of thousands of (Asian) Indians was retroactively revoked because the supreme court determined that they weren’t white.

    • Replies: @songbird
    @DFH

    The Taft court was based. They basically said that the Constitution doesn't apply to Puerto Ricans.

    Replies: @David Davenport

  594. @AP
    @Mr. XYZ


    The interesting fact, though, is that I’m not sure that the Democrats were particularly less anti-Communist than the Republicans were during the Cold War
     
    They were from the time of Carter onward. Before that, not particularly.

    Also, what exactly did Ukrainians in the US have against the social safety net?
     
    It smelled of socialism.

    BTW, did Ukrainians in the US continue voting Republican even after the end of the Cold War?
     
    For the most part, yes. Ukrainians are the "Cubans" of Eastern European-Americans.

    Replies: @Mr. XYZ

    They were from the time of Carter onward. Before that, not particularly.

    Wasn’t it Carter who began arming the Afghan Mujahideen, though? Also, Bush Sr. was the one who gave the Chicken Kiev speech.

    It smelled of socialism.

    It seems terrible to equate the social safety net with the Soviet Union, though. I mean, look at Lyndon Johnson–he fought the Commies in Vietnam while at the same time created a more secure social safety net at home with Medicare, Medicaid, and the War on Poverty.

    For the most part, yes. Ukrainians are the “Cubans” of Eastern European-Americans.

    Don’t younger Cubans largely vote Democratic nowadays, though?

  595. German_reader says:
    @Epigon
    @German_reader

    Others were trialled as well, but walked away with no/light sentences (Krupp), and even had ownership and properties restored to them.
    It was NATO Cold War policy of 1950s, propping up West Germany and integrating Reich industrialists and officers.
    Like I have previously stated, Germany has numerous people and companies to prosecute before having to resort to Ukrainian conscripts, if indeed it is after justice and atonement.

    Going after 90 year olds while having descendants of Nazi slave labour industrialists and war profiteers worth tens of billions of euros is distasteful - as simple as that.

    Replies: @German_reader

    Like I have previously stated, Germany has numerous people and companies to prosecute before having to resort to Ukrainian conscripts

    The people involved are all dead by now.
    And frankly, one can overdo it with sympathy for John Demjanjuk. It’s true that he was in an extremely difficult situation as a pow (though as far as I know, Ukrainians were in some ways often favored compared to Russians), but still, in all probability he was a guard at an extermination camp. That’s a rather extreme form of collaboration.
    I’m also unaware that there were many other trials of such low-ranking non-German collaborators before German courts, so this discussion seems rather pointless to me.

    • Agree: Mr. XYZ
  596. @songbird
    @German_reader

    I really wish someone would do an historical study about the spread of Holocaust memorials, and the evolution and frequency of Holocaust language in print and fiction. As well as study the flow of money involved. The way I view it, the memorials would be a proxy for the political narrative, and the trendlines would have a similar shape.

    It would be interesting to compare it to the Armenian genocide and others. I bet they would all look like abortive Holocaust trendlines, since those groups don't have the same influence necessary to construct their own Holocaust, Inc. But maybe, the Holocaust trendline would have some predictive value going forward. Is the process slowing down? Or still accelerating? In any case, I don't think it can go on forever.

    Some of those memorials most likely will come down, like Saddam 's statue or statues of Lenin. It doesn't help that they are overwhelmingly ugly.

    Replies: @German_reader, @for-the-record

    I really wish someone would do an historical study about . . . the evolution and frequency of Holocaust language in print and fiction.

    Here’s a quick one using Google Ngram, and comparing the “popularity” of the following terms: Pearl Harbor, atomic bomb, appeasement, Hiroshima, Nagasaki, genocide, holocaust. The “results” suggest that the key decade was the 1970s, lending support to Utu’s thesis.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @for-the-record

    Holocaust as a term was popularized by the 1979 television series of the same name iirc.
    That doesn't mean though the destruction of the Jews during WW2 wasn't discussed before, one probably would have to look for many other terms like "Final solution" as well.

    , @songbird
    @for-the-record

    That is interesting - definite acceleration during the 1970s and seemingly a bit of decline recently.

    The memorial in Hyde Park (1983) was supposedly the first public one built in Britain. But they are supposedly building a second one (!) in London in Victoria Gardens Tower. They are calling it the National Holocaust Memorial and presumably it will be the biggest one yet, at least in Britain. What is curious is that when they talk about it, they tack some of the other groups on, like gypsies. It will be interesting to see how long the LGBT string is, but I suppose they will spell everything out.

    My local one in Boston was built in 1995. I was very disturbed the first time I took note of it, and the nearby black heritage trail. It is definitely an attempt to grab the minds of schoolkids and tourists, and rewrite the narrative of the city into one of victimhood, when it was traditionally about freedom. It is all in imitation of the Freedom Trail, but for victimhood. A general reflection of politics. Indeed, the pols and clergy are generally there when the monuments are dedicated.

    Replies: @LondonBob

    , @songbird
    @for-the-record

    Wikipedia has some lists, but they are definitely not precise. Might be generalist monuments included. Some are definitely missing, or multiple locations rolled into one word in Germany.

    I did a rough count of the ones in the US: 50. Many states aren't listed, many have multiples.

    I suspect others are beginning to hijack the narrative. Quite amusing: they put up a monument to homosexuals in Berlin in 2008. Lesbians apparently complained, and wanted kissing lesbians on the monument, but there wasn't much evidence for lesbians being persecuted. So, a compromise was reached. They would change the video of kissing homos to kissing lesbos every two years. A Holocaust survivor complained about the nearness of the monument to a Holocaust memorial, saying it did not give a sense of proportionality.

  597. @for-the-record
    @songbird

    I really wish someone would do an historical study about . . . the evolution and frequency of Holocaust language in print and fiction.

    Here's a quick one using Google Ngram, and comparing the "popularity" of the following terms: Pearl Harbor, atomic bomb, appeasement, Hiroshima, Nagasaki, genocide, holocaust. The "results" suggest that the key decade was the 1970s, lending support to Utu's thesis.

    Replies: @German_reader, @songbird, @songbird

    Holocaust as a term was popularized by the 1979 television series of the same name iirc.
    That doesn’t mean though the destruction of the Jews during WW2 wasn’t discussed before, one probably would have to look for many other terms like “Final solution” as well.

  598. @DFH
    @utu

    Have Jews apologised for anything ever?

    Murdering Christ would be a good place to start.

    Replies: @utu, @for-the-record

    Have Jews apologised for anything ever?

    For the “mistake” of sinking the USS Liberty.

  599. @German_reader
    @utu


    All Jews were murdered only by your immediate family who were 100% German to the n-th generation and nobody else was involved
     
    That's what this Kurek woman whom you just lauded enthusiastically would say, so I don't see your point.
    There just isn't a German campaign to shift Holocaust responsibility on Poles. It's a made-up claim by Polish right-wingers so can live out their anti-German obsessions and feel all righteous about it. If you asked them for evidence, they'd bring up a few sloppy newspaper articles referring to "Polish camps", and not much else.

    Replies: @AP, @utu

    I agree that outwardly “There is no organized German campaign to depict Poles as Holocaust co-perpetrators.” but there are undercurrents of insinuations and innuendos. Poles are irritated by the semantic game played by Germans when all the perpetrators became Nazis of unknown origin and nationality and that Germans considers themselves to be the first victims of those alien Nazis and then in the Jewish narrative who adopted this German semantic replacement the perpetrators are some unknown Nazis and very well known Poles. Recently Andrea Mitchel of NBC in Warsaw Ghetto said:

    Poland Wants Correction After NBC’s Andrea Mitchell Says Warsaw Ghetto Uprising Was Against ‘Polish and Nazi Regime’
    https://www.haaretz.com/world-news/europe/poland-wants-correction-of-journalists-polish-and-nazi-regime-statement-1.6938221

    The Concentration camps can’t be officially called German camps while commonly they are referred to as Polish camps. Poles were upset by some parts of the miniseries “Unsere Mütter, unsere Väter” whee Polish partisans were shown only as antisemites. BTW, in Polish unsere=nasi so Poles twisted the title to Nazi Mothers and Nazi Fathers.

    Anyway you have tendency to concentrate on unimportant minutiae (Ewa Kurek talked about more important issues than what you picked.) because you do not want to face bigger issues. Keep in mind that Poland is fighting for its life right now with respect to Jewish financial claims and people are confused because their government is not straight with them. For instance somebody in the government came up with a ‘brilliant’ idea of demanding reparations from Germany. It is a very cynical move to awaken in an average Poles greed and a Jewish spirit of vindictiveness so they would become more understanding and sympathetic to Jewish claims. But the claim against Germany is just a bluff and nobody sane believes that they are made in a good faith but I am sure they are upsetting to Germans. It is just a posturing of the pathetic Polish government to manipulate their confused subjects on behalf of Jews. Imho Poland’s only chance is to be on a very good terms with Germany and they are blowing it.

    Many years ago when the communism was collapsing and finally people could talk about history I was learning some alternative narratives of WWII that were more congruent with my family histories (that included Auschwitz, Moabit, other KL’s in Germany and even with Gulag) I had a dream that there was window of opportunity that Poland together with Germany could rectify some of its history (after all there were archives in Poland no longer in control by communist and many witnesses still alive), thet history that was distorted in early years after WWII however quickly I found out that most Poles and most Germans are idiots and cucks like yourself and they do not want any rectification. German cucks like yourself want tow wallow in guilt forever and and do not want to share blame with anybody and most Poles want to play the innocent victims like Jews and the Jews want to be above it all and keep laughing all the way to the bank. I had a silly hope that Poles could help to absolve Germans from some of their guilt but apparently I must be an idiot as well.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @utu


    Poles are irritated by the semantic game played by Germans when all the perpetrators became Nazis of unknown origin and nationality and that Germans considers themselves to be the first victims of those alien Nazis
     

    German cucks like yourself want tow wallow in guilt forever and and do not want to share blame with anybody and most Poles want to play the innocent victims
     
    You're now starting to contradict yourself even in the same post...what's it now? Germans claiming "The Nazis had nothing to do with us", or Germans wallowing in their unique and exclusive guilt? Can hardly both be true at the same time.
    This discussion is getting increasingly retarded and your style of debate gets on my nerves. I think I'm not going to comment on issues related to WW2 or National Socialism anymore, it's a pointless waste of time.

    Replies: @utu

  600. @melanf
    @reiner Tor


    Or due to Berber ancestry. Berbers are the original inhabitants of the Maghreb, and they are genetically closer to Europeans than any other population with pre-1492 roots outside of Europe.
     
    As far as I know the Berbers is an example of the independent occurrence of light hair and eyes as a result of mutation spread in the population . Such mutation in history happened
    many times - for example, some tribes of Siberia have blond hair and light eyes

    https://media.nazaccent.ru/files/27/58/2758079a10ecbad755f622901c230b8c.jpg

    https://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/6702/287731.2c/0_bc663_fb69ae36_XL.jpeg.jpg

    Replies: @AP, @Philip Owen

    Linguists claim to have found connections between Welsh and Berber. This could be the influence of the Atlantic trading network now supposed to be the origin of Celtic language or of population movement. I don’t know of any genetic studies.

  601. German_reader says:
    @utu
    @German_reader

    I agree that outwardly "There is no organized German campaign to depict Poles as Holocaust co-perpetrators." but there are undercurrents of insinuations and innuendos. Poles are irritated by the semantic game played by Germans when all the perpetrators became Nazis of unknown origin and nationality and that Germans considers themselves to be the first victims of those alien Nazis and then in the Jewish narrative who adopted this German semantic replacement the perpetrators are some unknown Nazis and very well known Poles. Recently Andrea Mitchel of NBC in Warsaw Ghetto said:

    Poland Wants Correction After NBC’s Andrea Mitchell Says Warsaw Ghetto Uprising Was Against ‘Polish and Nazi Regime’
    https://www.haaretz.com/world-news/europe/poland-wants-correction-of-journalists-polish-and-nazi-regime-statement-1.6938221

    The Concentration camps can't be officially called German camps while commonly they are referred to as Polish camps. Poles were upset by some parts of the miniseries "Unsere Mütter, unsere Väter" whee Polish partisans were shown only as antisemites. BTW, in Polish unsere=nasi so Poles twisted the title to Nazi Mothers and Nazi Fathers.

    Anyway you have tendency to concentrate on unimportant minutiae (Ewa Kurek talked about more important issues than what you picked.) because you do not want to face bigger issues. Keep in mind that Poland is fighting for its life right now with respect to Jewish financial claims and people are confused because their government is not straight with them. For instance somebody in the government came up with a 'brilliant' idea of demanding reparations from Germany. It is a very cynical move to awaken in an average Poles greed and a Jewish spirit of vindictiveness so they would become more understanding and sympathetic to Jewish claims. But the claim against Germany is just a bluff and nobody sane believes that they are made in a good faith but I am sure they are upsetting to Germans. It is just a posturing of the pathetic Polish government to manipulate their confused subjects on behalf of Jews. Imho Poland's only chance is to be on a very good terms with Germany and they are blowing it.

    Many years ago when the communism was collapsing and finally people could talk about history I was learning some alternative narratives of WWII that were more congruent with my family histories (that included Auschwitz, Moabit, other KL's in Germany and even with Gulag) I had a dream that there was window of opportunity that Poland together with Germany could rectify some of its history (after all there were archives in Poland no longer in control by communist and many witnesses still alive), thet history that was distorted in early years after WWII however quickly I found out that most Poles and most Germans are idiots and cucks like yourself and they do not want any rectification. German cucks like yourself want tow wallow in guilt forever and and do not want to share blame with anybody and most Poles want to play the innocent victims like Jews and the Jews want to be above it all and keep laughing all the way to the bank. I had a silly hope that Poles could help to absolve Germans from some of their guilt but apparently I must be an idiot as well.

    Replies: @German_reader

    Poles are irritated by the semantic game played by Germans when all the perpetrators became Nazis of unknown origin and nationality and that Germans considers themselves to be the first victims of those alien Nazis

    German cucks like yourself want tow wallow in guilt forever and and do not want to share blame with anybody and most Poles want to play the innocent victims

    You’re now starting to contradict yourself even in the same post…what’s it now? Germans claiming “The Nazis had nothing to do with us”, or Germans wallowing in their unique and exclusive guilt? Can hardly both be true at the same time.
    This discussion is getting increasingly retarded and your style of debate gets on my nerves. I think I’m not going to comment on issues related to WW2 or National Socialism anymore, it’s a pointless waste of time.

    • Replies: @utu
    @German_reader


    pointless waste of time
     
    That should not be a problem for you. You have already wasted most of your life as a cuck.

    Replies: @reiner Tor

  602. Ukraine elections by region:

    Zelensky – dominates southern Ukraine but with significant support everywhere else.
    Poroshenko – wins in the West and his native Vynnytsia, and ties with Tymoshenko in the Center
    Tymoshenko – ties with Poroshenko in the Center (may have slight lead over him there)
    Boyko (Opposition Bloc, former Party of Regions) wins in the East

    The top 3 all want to continue pursuing the pro-Western course but Zelensky is less anti-Russian, being a Russian-speaking Jew (he did donate $1 million to the Ukrainian army when it really needed it in 2014 so he isn’t a pro-Russian puppet of Putin as Poroshenko’s ads will claim). In polls Odessans/southern Ukrainians are much softer on Russia than are western and central Ukrainians but, unlike eastern Ukrainians, prefer EU-oriented geopolitical policy over a Russian-oriented one. Zelensky seems like that, but even more strongly pro-EU because he is trying to appeal to western and central Ukrainian voters also.

    If Tymoshenko joins Zelensky, I decrease Poroshenko’s chances of winning the second round from 40% to 20%.

    • Replies: @Mr. XYZ
    @AP

    Boyko's voters will go en masse to Zelensky in the second round, correct?

    Also, why did southern Ukrainians but not eastern Ukrainians sour on the Eurasian idea after 2014? After all, eastern Ukraine was much more affected by the War in the Donbass than southern Ukraine was.

    Replies: @AP

    , @Gerard2
    @AP


    Ukraine elections by region:

    Zelensky


     

    HAHAHAHA.........the idea of a cretin as yourself masquerading as some sort of "expert" on this election, or any Ukrainian election is grotesque in the extreme. Unlike you, I have been watching Zelensky's comedy for years on KVN and Kvartal95. He like everybody in Ukraine, made his money off Russian audience, but when he switched to Ukrainian TV it made no difference.....because that's what happens then there is one identical culture and people across 2 states you idiot. Even before he was announced as running for President - my Youtube was full of suggested videos from Kvartal95 involving him because I have followed for a while.

    Now, the embarassing spectacle of you talking about a candidate you know absolute nothing about, who has a serious chance of becoming the new President of Banderastan.....is comical, when clearly you don't know anything about him, certainly had never hear of him before he announced he was running....and in general have f**k all knowledge about Banderastan...just copy and pasted fantasist drivel and fake arguments plaigisrised from Wikipedia and some moron like Motyl


    Russian-speaking Jew
     
    LOL...what's this nonsense insinuation? That Poroshenko, Boiko, Tymoshenko don't speak perfect Russian? Or have spoken it as the main language for the majority of their lifes at home and in public?...and probably still speak it at home when the camera's aren't home...Valtsman certainly talks like he's thinking in Russian...and even the bastard head of this new fake church in Ukraine, inexplicably speaks in Russian when conducting a phone call done by Vovan and Lexus, pretending to be some german ambassador

    If Tymoshenko joins Zelensky, I decrease Poroshenko’s chances of winning the second round from 40% to 20%

    Outside of voter fraud...which with a compliant west, state apparatus behind him and no video cameras of all the stations ( unlike Russia) gives him hope....he has no chance you POS.


    Poroshenko – wins in the West and his native Vynnytsia
     
    having probably spent 5 hours composing your stupid post...it's unlikely that even you didn't know that this idiot Poroshenko LOST Vynnytsia, coming in third with less than 20% you POS. "Nearly coming second" is not the same as coming third you cretin.


     

  603. @AP
    Ukraine elections by region:

    Zelensky - dominates southern Ukraine but with significant support everywhere else.
    Poroshenko - wins in the West and his native Vynnytsia, and ties with Tymoshenko in the Center
    Tymoshenko - ties with Poroshenko in the Center (may have slight lead over him there)
    Boyko (Opposition Bloc, former Party of Regions) wins in the East

    The top 3 all want to continue pursuing the pro-Western course but Zelensky is less anti-Russian, being a Russian-speaking Jew (he did donate $1 million to the Ukrainian army when it really needed it in 2014 so he isn't a pro-Russian puppet of Putin as Poroshenko's ads will claim). In polls Odessans/southern Ukrainians are much softer on Russia than are western and central Ukrainians but, unlike eastern Ukrainians, prefer EU-oriented geopolitical policy over a Russian-oriented one. Zelensky seems like that, but even more strongly pro-EU because he is trying to appeal to western and central Ukrainian voters also.

    If Tymoshenko joins Zelensky, I decrease Poroshenko's chances of winning the second round from 40% to 20%.

    Replies: @Mr. XYZ, @Gerard2

    Boyko’s voters will go en masse to Zelensky in the second round, correct?

    Also, why did southern Ukrainians but not eastern Ukrainians sour on the Eurasian idea after 2014? After all, eastern Ukraine was much more affected by the War in the Donbass than southern Ukraine was.

    • Replies: @AP
    @Mr. XYZ


    Boyko’s voters will go en masse to Zelensky in the second round, correct?
     
    A lot of them will stay home but the ones who vote will choose him over Poroshenko.

    Also, why did southern Ukrainians but not eastern Ukrainians sour on the Eurasian idea after 2014?
     
    Their economy hasn't done as badly with Ukraine's reorientation as has the East's.

    Replies: @Mr. XYZ, @Denis

  604. @DFH
    @German_reader


    “Our views were totally mainstream not that long ago” (and of course leftie critics of “AmeriKKKa” agree), but to me it seems more like those issues were always controversial in American society, with a strong and increasingly dominant strain of extreme universalism present from quite early on.
     
    In the 1920s the citizenship of thousands of (Asian) Indians was retroactively revoked because the supreme court determined that they weren't white.

    Replies: @songbird

    The Taft court was based. They basically said that the Constitution doesn’t apply to Puerto Ricans.

    • Replies: @David Davenport
    @songbird

    The Taft court was based. They basically said that the Constitution doesn’t apply to Puerto Ricans.

    The "Taft court" was correct.

  605. @German_reader
    @utu


    Dr. Ewa Kurek: JEDWABNE – ANATOMY OF DECEPTION
    http://www.poloniainstitute.net/history-of-poland/jedwabne-anatomy-of-deception/
     
    Sounds like hysterical trash tbh.
    Of course she has to bring up this

    for the Germans it was and is a tool to show Poles as partners in shared responsibility for the genocide of the Jews conducted by the Germans in Poland. Exhumation of the remains of Jews murdered in Jedwabne, and detailed study of historical events of July 1941, will remove from Germans and Jews once and for all the unfair weapons to fight Poland and Poles.
     
    which is just the usual Polish paranoia that is getting very tiresome. There is no organized German campaign to depict Poles as Holocaust co-perpetrators. It's something that only exists in the imagination of Polish nationalists.

    Replies: @utu, @Matra

    There is no organized German campaign to depict Poles as Holocaust co-perpetrators. It’s something that only exists in the imagination of Polish nationalists.

    There is almost certainly an organised campaign to depict Poles as Holocaust co-perpetrators, however it is obviously not Germans who are leading it. This campaign is modelled on a similar campaign that began in the late 80s and early 90s against Switzerland that eventually led to that country being subjected to a very well organised and, sadly, successful shakedown from the highest levels of the US government. Angelo Codevilla wrote about this in his excellent book Between the Alps and a Hard Place as did Norman Finkelstein in The Holocaust Industry. I think the Poles are currently being tested for weakness. Polish provincialism – so typical of conservative people – combined with their sycophantic relationship with the US (and Israel) probably makes them look like an easy mark for a Swiss-style shakedown.

    • Agree: utu
  606. @Mr. XYZ
    @AP

    Boyko's voters will go en masse to Zelensky in the second round, correct?

    Also, why did southern Ukrainians but not eastern Ukrainians sour on the Eurasian idea after 2014? After all, eastern Ukraine was much more affected by the War in the Donbass than southern Ukraine was.

    Replies: @AP

    Boyko’s voters will go en masse to Zelensky in the second round, correct?

    A lot of them will stay home but the ones who vote will choose him over Poroshenko.

    Also, why did southern Ukrainians but not eastern Ukrainians sour on the Eurasian idea after 2014?

    Their economy hasn’t done as badly with Ukraine’s reorientation as has the East’s.

    • Replies: @Mr. XYZ
    @AP


    A lot of them will stay home but the ones who vote will choose him over Poroshenko.
     
    That makes sense. That said, though, maybe Zelensky should promise to invest in eastern Ukraine in an attempt to get more Boyko voters to vote for him instead of staying at home.

    Their economy hasn’t done as badly with Ukraine’s reorientation as has the East’s.
     
    That makes sense in 2019, but this pattern was already visible even back in 2014:

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4d/%D0%A0%D0%B5%D0%B7%D1%83%D0%BB%D1%8C%D1%82%D0%B0%D1%82%D0%B8_%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B1%D0%BE%D1%80%D1%96%D0%B2_%D0%B4%D0%BE_%D0%92%D0%A0_%D0%A3%D0%BA%D1%80%D0%B0%D1%97%D0%BD%D0%B8_2014_%28%D0%9F%D0%BE%D0%BB%D1%96%D1%82%D0%B8%D1%87%D0%BD%D0%B0_%D0%BF%D0%B0%D1%80%D1%82%D1%96%D1%8F_%D0%9E%D0%BF%D0%BE%D0%B7%D0%B8%D1%86%D1%96%D0%B9%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%B9_%D0%B1%D0%BB%D0%BE%D0%BA%29.png

    As you can see, the Opposition Bloc did best in eastern Novorossiya, worse in central Novorossiya, and worst in western Novorossiya in 2014. Why exactly was this the case? After all, the economic effects of the reorientation towards Europe weren't yet visible in 2014--were they?

    Replies: @AP

    , @Denis
    @AP

    Hey, I have a question for you AP, are you in favour of Poroshenko remaining in power? If so, why?

    Replies: @AP

  607. @German_reader
    @utu


    Poles are irritated by the semantic game played by Germans when all the perpetrators became Nazis of unknown origin and nationality and that Germans considers themselves to be the first victims of those alien Nazis
     

    German cucks like yourself want tow wallow in guilt forever and and do not want to share blame with anybody and most Poles want to play the innocent victims
     
    You're now starting to contradict yourself even in the same post...what's it now? Germans claiming "The Nazis had nothing to do with us", or Germans wallowing in their unique and exclusive guilt? Can hardly both be true at the same time.
    This discussion is getting increasingly retarded and your style of debate gets on my nerves. I think I'm not going to comment on issues related to WW2 or National Socialism anymore, it's a pointless waste of time.

    Replies: @utu

    pointless waste of time

    That should not be a problem for you. You have already wasted most of your life as a cuck.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @utu

    The Arbiter of Who Is a Cuck is a cuckservative who enthusiastically advocates punching right and is - in the best cuckservative tradition - proposing cooperation with Based Blacks eager for an alliance with white conservatives and nationalists, who are pretty numerous, albeit only in his imagination.

  608. @for-the-record
    @songbird

    I really wish someone would do an historical study about . . . the evolution and frequency of Holocaust language in print and fiction.

    Here's a quick one using Google Ngram, and comparing the "popularity" of the following terms: Pearl Harbor, atomic bomb, appeasement, Hiroshima, Nagasaki, genocide, holocaust. The "results" suggest that the key decade was the 1970s, lending support to Utu's thesis.

    Replies: @German_reader, @songbird, @songbird

    That is interesting – definite acceleration during the 1970s and seemingly a bit of decline recently.

    The memorial in Hyde Park (1983) was supposedly the first public one built in Britain. But they are supposedly building a second one (!) in London in Victoria Gardens Tower. They are calling it the National Holocaust Memorial and presumably it will be the biggest one yet, at least in Britain. What is curious is that when they talk about it, they tack some of the other groups on, like gypsies. It will be interesting to see how long the LGBT string is, but I suppose they will spell everything out.

    My local one in Boston was built in 1995. I was very disturbed the first time I took note of it, and the nearby black heritage trail. It is definitely an attempt to grab the minds of schoolkids and tourists, and rewrite the narrative of the city into one of victimhood, when it was traditionally about freedom. It is all in imitation of the Freedom Trail, but for victimhood. A general reflection of politics. Indeed, the pols and clergy are generally there when the monuments are dedicated.

    • Replies: @LondonBob
    @songbird

    I don't think Victoria Gardens Tower will happen, there is a lot of opposition as it is a green space in central London, a Royal Park and a part of a world heritage site. That it was even proposed to build one, and right next to Parliament, is disturbing enough.

    I saw the one in Boston and also thought it was out of place with all the historic colonial and early American sites, also what relevance does it have to Boston.

    Replies: @for-the-record

  609. @AP
    @German_reader

    Ukrainians say the same about Germans. Amnestied their own Nazis but then prosecuted the Red Army veteran John Demjanjuk whom they essentially forced into service. The public prosecution of this man was seen as shifting the blame - see, everyone was involved, not just us.

    Pat Buchanan took a break form praising modern Russia to write this:

    https://buchanan.org/blog/pjb-the-true-haters-1495#more-1495

    Demjanjuk is to be taken to Germany and prosecuted as an accessory to the murder of 29,000 Jews at Sobibor — though not one living person can place him at that camp and not even the German prosecutor will say that he ever hurt anyone. One witness in Israel, who was at Sobibor and says he knew all the camp guards, says he never saw Demjanjuk there.

    If Friday’s ruling is upheld, John Demjanjuk, who has been charged with no crime on German soil, is to be taken to Germany, home of the Third Reich, to be tried by Germans for his alleged role in a genocide planned and perpetrated by Germans. He is to serve as the sacrificial lamb whose blood washes away the stain of Germany’s sins.

    But if Germans wish to prosecute participants in the Holocaust, why not round up some old big-time Nazis, instead of a Ukrainian POW.

    Answer: They cannot. Because the Germans voted an amnesty for themselves in 1969. So now they must find a Slav soldier they captured — and Heinrich Himmler’s SS conscripted and made a camp guard, if he ever was a camp guard — to punish in expiation for Germany’s sins.

    Replies: @German_reader, @songbird, @Matra

    Pat Buchanan took a break form praising modern Russia to write this

    Your snarky remark aside Buchanan was backing Demjanjuk way back in the 1980s and was clear at the time that the Soviets were framing him. He did this at some cost to himself as he was regularly smeared in US media for doing so. PB was also one of the few western pundits at the time to regularly mentioned the “captured nations” of the USSR. But I guess that’s not enough for some Eastern European nationalists with their passionate attachments to foreign states.

    • Replies: @AP
    @Matra


    Eastern European nationalists
     
    Calling me a nationalist doesn't make me one.

    with their passionate attachments to foreign states
     
    As opposed to the passionate Anglo attachment to Muslims and non-Westerners as seen among North American and British Anglos (and now in New Zealand also) and as reflected in Anglo demographic shifts everywhere.

    Replies: @Denis

  610. @Matra
    @AP

    Pat Buchanan took a break form praising modern Russia to write this

    Your snarky remark aside Buchanan was backing Demjanjuk way back in the 1980s and was clear at the time that the Soviets were framing him. He did this at some cost to himself as he was regularly smeared in US media for doing so. PB was also one of the few western pundits at the time to regularly mentioned the "captured nations" of the USSR. But I guess that's not enough for some Eastern European nationalists with their passionate attachments to foreign states.

    Replies: @AP

    Eastern European nationalists

    Calling me a nationalist doesn’t make me one.

    with their passionate attachments to foreign states

    As opposed to the passionate Anglo attachment to Muslims and non-Westerners as seen among North American and British Anglos (and now in New Zealand also) and as reflected in Anglo demographic shifts everywhere.

    • Replies: @Denis
    @AP


    Calling me a nationalist doesn’t make me one.
     
    People may call you a Ukrainian nationalist for convenience, since calling you "that Ukrainian guy who longs for Intermarium" is a bit belabored.

    As opposed to the passionate Anglo attachment to Muslims and non-Westerners as seen among North American and British Anglos (and now in New Zealand also) and as reflected in Anglo demographic shifts everywhere.
     
    Judging by Ukraine's demographic shifts, Ukrainians have a passionate attachment to non-existence.

    Replies: @AP

  611. @for-the-record
    @songbird

    I really wish someone would do an historical study about . . . the evolution and frequency of Holocaust language in print and fiction.

    Here's a quick one using Google Ngram, and comparing the "popularity" of the following terms: Pearl Harbor, atomic bomb, appeasement, Hiroshima, Nagasaki, genocide, holocaust. The "results" suggest that the key decade was the 1970s, lending support to Utu's thesis.

    Replies: @German_reader, @songbird, @songbird

    Wikipedia has some lists, but they are definitely not precise. Might be generalist monuments included. Some are definitely missing, or multiple locations rolled into one word in Germany.

    I did a rough count of the ones in the US: 50. Many states aren’t listed, many have multiples.

    I suspect others are beginning to hijack the narrative. Quite amusing: they put up a monument to homosexuals in Berlin in 2008. Lesbians apparently complained, and wanted kissing lesbians on the monument, but there wasn’t much evidence for lesbians being persecuted. So, a compromise was reached. They would change the video of kissing homos to kissing lesbos every two years. A Holocaust survivor complained about the nearness of the monument to a Holocaust memorial, saying it did not give a sense of proportionality.

  612. @AP
    @Mr. XYZ


    Boyko’s voters will go en masse to Zelensky in the second round, correct?
     
    A lot of them will stay home but the ones who vote will choose him over Poroshenko.

    Also, why did southern Ukrainians but not eastern Ukrainians sour on the Eurasian idea after 2014?
     
    Their economy hasn't done as badly with Ukraine's reorientation as has the East's.

    Replies: @Mr. XYZ, @Denis

    A lot of them will stay home but the ones who vote will choose him over Poroshenko.

    That makes sense. That said, though, maybe Zelensky should promise to invest in eastern Ukraine in an attempt to get more Boyko voters to vote for him instead of staying at home.

    Their economy hasn’t done as badly with Ukraine’s reorientation as has the East’s.

    That makes sense in 2019, but this pattern was already visible even back in 2014:

    As you can see, the Opposition Bloc did best in eastern Novorossiya, worse in central Novorossiya, and worst in western Novorossiya in 2014. Why exactly was this the case? After all, the economic effects of the reorientation towards Europe weren’t yet visible in 2014–were they?

    • Replies: @AP
    @Mr. XYZ


    After all, the economic effects of the reorientation towards Europe weren’t yet visible in 2014–were they
     
    Not as much as now but they were fairly obvious to predict.
  613. BTW, the Boyko-voting areas are where Novorossiya should seek to expand in the event of a future war with Ukraine, correct?

  614. @AP
    Ukraine elections by region:

    Zelensky - dominates southern Ukraine but with significant support everywhere else.
    Poroshenko - wins in the West and his native Vynnytsia, and ties with Tymoshenko in the Center
    Tymoshenko - ties with Poroshenko in the Center (may have slight lead over him there)
    Boyko (Opposition Bloc, former Party of Regions) wins in the East

    The top 3 all want to continue pursuing the pro-Western course but Zelensky is less anti-Russian, being a Russian-speaking Jew (he did donate $1 million to the Ukrainian army when it really needed it in 2014 so he isn't a pro-Russian puppet of Putin as Poroshenko's ads will claim). In polls Odessans/southern Ukrainians are much softer on Russia than are western and central Ukrainians but, unlike eastern Ukrainians, prefer EU-oriented geopolitical policy over a Russian-oriented one. Zelensky seems like that, but even more strongly pro-EU because he is trying to appeal to western and central Ukrainian voters also.

    If Tymoshenko joins Zelensky, I decrease Poroshenko's chances of winning the second round from 40% to 20%.

    Replies: @Mr. XYZ, @Gerard2

    Ukraine elections by region:

    Zelensky

    HAHAHAHA………the idea of a cretin as yourself masquerading as some sort of “expert” on this election, or any Ukrainian election is grotesque in the extreme. Unlike you, I have been watching Zelensky’s comedy for years on KVN and Kvartal95. He like everybody in Ukraine, made his money off Russian audience, but when he switched to Ukrainian TV it made no difference…..because that’s what happens then there is one identical culture and people across 2 states you idiot. Even before he was announced as running for President – my Youtube was full of suggested videos from Kvartal95 involving him because I have followed for a while.

    Now, the embarassing spectacle of you talking about a candidate you know absolute nothing about, who has a serious chance of becoming the new President of Banderastan…..is comical, when clearly you don’t know anything about him, certainly had never hear of him before he announced he was running….and in general have f**k all knowledge about Banderastan…just copy and pasted fantasist drivel and fake arguments plaigisrised from Wikipedia and some moron like Motyl

    Russian-speaking Jew

    LOL…what’s this nonsense insinuation? That Poroshenko, Boiko, Tymoshenko don’t speak perfect Russian? Or have spoken it as the main language for the majority of their lifes at home and in public?…and probably still speak it at home when the camera’s aren’t home…Valtsman certainly talks like he’s thinking in Russian…and even the bastard head of this new fake church in Ukraine, inexplicably speaks in Russian when conducting a phone call done by Vovan and Lexus, pretending to be some german ambassador

    If Tymoshenko joins Zelensky, I decrease Poroshenko’s chances of winning the second round from 40% to 20%

    Outside of voter fraud…which with a compliant west, state apparatus behind him and no video cameras of all the stations ( unlike Russia) gives him hope….he has no chance you POS.

    Poroshenko – wins in the West and his native Vynnytsia

    having probably spent 5 hours composing your stupid post…it’s unlikely that even you didn’t know that this idiot Poroshenko LOST Vynnytsia, coming in third with less than 20% you POS. “Nearly coming second” is not the same as coming third you cretin.

  615. @AP
    @Mr. XYZ


    Boyko’s voters will go en masse to Zelensky in the second round, correct?
     
    A lot of them will stay home but the ones who vote will choose him over Poroshenko.

    Also, why did southern Ukrainians but not eastern Ukrainians sour on the Eurasian idea after 2014?
     
    Their economy hasn't done as badly with Ukraine's reorientation as has the East's.

    Replies: @Mr. XYZ, @Denis

    Hey, I have a question for you AP, are you in favour of Poroshenko remaining in power? If so, why?

    • Replies: @AP
    @Denis

    I don't like him but he is probably the least bad option. He has a mixed record. No progress on corruption is a huge minus, but he has reformed the army, fixed the church situation and brought Ukraine closer to the West. I'm not sure Ukraine is yet stable enough for a Zelensky experiment. Zelensky also seems rather weak. But if he manages some corruption reform...

    Replies: @Denis

  616. @AP
    @Matra


    Eastern European nationalists
     
    Calling me a nationalist doesn't make me one.

    with their passionate attachments to foreign states
     
    As opposed to the passionate Anglo attachment to Muslims and non-Westerners as seen among North American and British Anglos (and now in New Zealand also) and as reflected in Anglo demographic shifts everywhere.

    Replies: @Denis

    Calling me a nationalist doesn’t make me one.

    People may call you a Ukrainian nationalist for convenience, since calling you “that Ukrainian guy who longs for Intermarium” is a bit belabored.

    As opposed to the passionate Anglo attachment to Muslims and non-Westerners as seen among North American and British Anglos (and now in New Zealand also) and as reflected in Anglo demographic shifts everywhere.

    Judging by Ukraine’s demographic shifts, Ukrainians have a passionate attachment to non-existence.

    • Replies: @AP
    @Denis

    TFR in Western Ukraine is among the highest in Europe among white people. Among Sovoks it is the lowest.

    Sovok eastern Ukraine - the birth rate of Japan combined with the HIV rate of Africa.

  617. @Denis
    @AP


    Calling me a nationalist doesn’t make me one.
     
    People may call you a Ukrainian nationalist for convenience, since calling you "that Ukrainian guy who longs for Intermarium" is a bit belabored.

    As opposed to the passionate Anglo attachment to Muslims and non-Westerners as seen among North American and British Anglos (and now in New Zealand also) and as reflected in Anglo demographic shifts everywhere.
     
    Judging by Ukraine's demographic shifts, Ukrainians have a passionate attachment to non-existence.

    Replies: @AP

    TFR in Western Ukraine is among the highest in Europe among white people. Among Sovoks it is the lowest.

    Sovok eastern Ukraine – the birth rate of Japan combined with the HIV rate of Africa.

  618. AP says:
    @Denis
    @AP

    Hey, I have a question for you AP, are you in favour of Poroshenko remaining in power? If so, why?

    Replies: @AP

    I don’t like him but he is probably the least bad option. He has a mixed record. No progress on corruption is a huge minus, but he has reformed the army, fixed the church situation and brought Ukraine closer to the West. I’m not sure Ukraine is yet stable enough for a Zelensky experiment. Zelensky also seems rather weak. But if he manages some corruption reform…

    • Replies: @Denis
    @AP

    I guess it's useless to speculate, as we'll have the results soon enough, but I'm not sure that Poroshenko would be the worst option for Russia's interests. He seems to be an impediment to anti-corruption measures, and the Ukrainian army corruption scandal that broke out not too long ago suggests that his failure on corruption is having negative practical effects on Ukraine's ability to function as a state. EU membership isn't coming anytime soon, and it doesn't seem likely to me that Ukraine will be able to affect real economic gains under Poroshenko's leadership

    Meanwhile, from what I can tell, Zelensky is pretty much a question mark. What if he turns out to be competent? Russia would be in a much more difficult position if Ukraine had a leader who was pro-western, willing to fight corruption, and able to deliver major improvements in the quality of life of the average Ukrainian. Poroshenko hardly fits the above description, except for the pro-western part.

  619. @Mr. XYZ
    @AP


    A lot of them will stay home but the ones who vote will choose him over Poroshenko.
     
    That makes sense. That said, though, maybe Zelensky should promise to invest in eastern Ukraine in an attempt to get more Boyko voters to vote for him instead of staying at home.

    Their economy hasn’t done as badly with Ukraine’s reorientation as has the East’s.
     
    That makes sense in 2019, but this pattern was already visible even back in 2014:

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4d/%D0%A0%D0%B5%D0%B7%D1%83%D0%BB%D1%8C%D1%82%D0%B0%D1%82%D0%B8_%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B1%D0%BE%D1%80%D1%96%D0%B2_%D0%B4%D0%BE_%D0%92%D0%A0_%D0%A3%D0%BA%D1%80%D0%B0%D1%97%D0%BD%D0%B8_2014_%28%D0%9F%D0%BE%D0%BB%D1%96%D1%82%D0%B8%D1%87%D0%BD%D0%B0_%D0%BF%D0%B0%D1%80%D1%82%D1%96%D1%8F_%D0%9E%D0%BF%D0%BE%D0%B7%D0%B8%D1%86%D1%96%D0%B9%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%B9_%D0%B1%D0%BB%D0%BE%D0%BA%29.png

    As you can see, the Opposition Bloc did best in eastern Novorossiya, worse in central Novorossiya, and worst in western Novorossiya in 2014. Why exactly was this the case? After all, the economic effects of the reorientation towards Europe weren't yet visible in 2014--were they?

    Replies: @AP

    After all, the economic effects of the reorientation towards Europe weren’t yet visible in 2014–were they

    Not as much as now but they were fairly obvious to predict.

  620. @AP
    @Denis

    I don't like him but he is probably the least bad option. He has a mixed record. No progress on corruption is a huge minus, but he has reformed the army, fixed the church situation and brought Ukraine closer to the West. I'm not sure Ukraine is yet stable enough for a Zelensky experiment. Zelensky also seems rather weak. But if he manages some corruption reform...

    Replies: @Denis

    I guess it’s useless to speculate, as we’ll have the results soon enough, but I’m not sure that Poroshenko would be the worst option for Russia’s interests. He seems to be an impediment to anti-corruption measures, and the Ukrainian army corruption scandal that broke out not too long ago suggests that his failure on corruption is having negative practical effects on Ukraine’s ability to function as a state. EU membership isn’t coming anytime soon, and it doesn’t seem likely to me that Ukraine will be able to affect real economic gains under Poroshenko’s leadership

    Meanwhile, from what I can tell, Zelensky is pretty much a question mark. What if he turns out to be competent? Russia would be in a much more difficult position if Ukraine had a leader who was pro-western, willing to fight corruption, and able to deliver major improvements in the quality of life of the average Ukrainian. Poroshenko hardly fits the above description, except for the pro-western part.

  621. AP says:

    He seems to be an impediment to anti-corruption measures, and the Ukrainian army corruption scandal that broke out not too long ago suggests that his failure on corruption is having negative practical effects on Ukraine’s ability to function as a state.

    Corruption is certainly slowing Ukraine down. But it is functioning as a state. Economy has been growing 2%-4% a year for three years now, the army has improved immensely (albeit from a horrible base), foreign reserves are up to 2013 levels and foreign debt has declined from its peak in 2016. Its a very corrupt state but it is not a state of anarchy in collapse.

    What if he turns out to be competent? Russia would be in a much more difficult position if Ukraine had a leader who was pro-western, willing to fight corruption, and able to deliver major improvements in the quality of life of the average Ukrainian

    Two of the Maidan anti-corruption activists who were pushed out of the government by Poroshenko support Zelensky. This does not mean that Zelensky will necessarily actually fight corruption (it could mean those two Maidan guys have a tendency to naively attach themselves to people and then by discarded.

    But it is a question mark. The guy has no experience. He doesn’t strike me as particularly strong, yet he will be standing toe to toe with some very strong opponents. And he may very well be nothing more than a tool of Kolomoysky. But theoretically he has the potential to be good.

    • Replies: @Denis
    @AP


    Corruption is certainly slowing Ukraine down. But it is functioning as a state. Economy has been growing 2%-4% a year for three years now, the army has improved immensely (albeit from a horrible base), foreign reserves are up to 2013 levels and foreign debt has declined from its peak in 2016. Its a very corrupt state but it is not a state of anarchy in collapse.
     
    I never said that Ukraine was in a state of anarchy. I just said that the army corruption scandal indicates that corruption impedes the state's proper functioning, which I think is self-evident. In the midst of a conflict with Russia, the son of a government official, who is connected to Poroshenko, was smuggling in sub-standard equipment from Russia, and then selling it to the national defense industry at inflated prices. Embezzlement of funds from the defense sector by government officials, in the midst of an armed conflict no less, is what I call a practical issue.

    As for the economy, I'm not sure that I would attribute any successes on that front to Poroshenko's governance. It is in a fragile state, either way.


    But it is a question mark. The guy has no experience. He doesn’t strike me as particularly strong, yet he will be standing toe to toe with some very strong opponents. And he may very well be nothing more than a tool of Kolomoysky. But theoretically he has the potential to be good.
     
    My personal guess is that he is a corrupt clown, but you never know. If he turns out to actually deliver on some of his promises, it would create a problem for Russia. He's photogenic and popular, if he can combine those assets with genuine accomplishments, he would make it that much more difficult for Russia to pull Ukraine back, as the government would then have significantly more legitimacy in the eyes of the public.
  622. @songbird
    @DFH

    The Taft court was based. They basically said that the Constitution doesn't apply to Puerto Ricans.

    Replies: @David Davenport

    The Taft court was based. They basically said that the Constitution doesn’t apply to Puerto Ricans.

    The “Taft court” was correct.

    • Agree: songbird
  623. @AP

    He seems to be an impediment to anti-corruption measures, and the Ukrainian army corruption scandal that broke out not too long ago suggests that his failure on corruption is having negative practical effects on Ukraine’s ability to function as a state.

     

    Corruption is certainly slowing Ukraine down. But it is functioning as a state. Economy has been growing 2%-4% a year for three years now, the army has improved immensely (albeit from a horrible base), foreign reserves are up to 2013 levels and foreign debt has declined from its peak in 2016. Its a very corrupt state but it is not a state of anarchy in collapse.

    What if he turns out to be competent? Russia would be in a much more difficult position if Ukraine had a leader who was pro-western, willing to fight corruption, and able to deliver major improvements in the quality of life of the average Ukrainian
     
    Two of the Maidan anti-corruption activists who were pushed out of the government by Poroshenko support Zelensky. This does not mean that Zelensky will necessarily actually fight corruption (it could mean those two Maidan guys have a tendency to naively attach themselves to people and then by discarded.

    But it is a question mark. The guy has no experience. He doesn't strike me as particularly strong, yet he will be standing toe to toe with some very strong opponents. And he may very well be nothing more than a tool of Kolomoysky. But theoretically he has the potential to be good.

    Replies: @Denis

    Corruption is certainly slowing Ukraine down. But it is functioning as a state. Economy has been growing 2%-4% a year for three years now, the army has improved immensely (albeit from a horrible base), foreign reserves are up to 2013 levels and foreign debt has declined from its peak in 2016. Its a very corrupt state but it is not a state of anarchy in collapse.

    I never said that Ukraine was in a state of anarchy. I just said that the army corruption scandal indicates that corruption impedes the state’s proper functioning, which I think is self-evident. In the midst of a conflict with Russia, the son of a government official, who is connected to Poroshenko, was smuggling in sub-standard equipment from Russia, and then selling it to the national defense industry at inflated prices. Embezzlement of funds from the defense sector by government officials, in the midst of an armed conflict no less, is what I call a practical issue.

    As for the economy, I’m not sure that I would attribute any successes on that front to Poroshenko’s governance. It is in a fragile state, either way.

    But it is a question mark. The guy has no experience. He doesn’t strike me as particularly strong, yet he will be standing toe to toe with some very strong opponents. And he may very well be nothing more than a tool of Kolomoysky. But theoretically he has the potential to be good.

    My personal guess is that he is a corrupt clown, but you never know. If he turns out to actually deliver on some of his promises, it would create a problem for Russia. He’s photogenic and popular, if he can combine those assets with genuine accomplishments, he would make it that much more difficult for Russia to pull Ukraine back, as the government would then have significantly more legitimacy in the eyes of the public.

  624. @utu
    @German_reader


    pointless waste of time
     
    That should not be a problem for you. You have already wasted most of your life as a cuck.

    Replies: @reiner Tor

    The Arbiter of Who Is a Cuck is a cuckservative who enthusiastically advocates punching right and is – in the best cuckservative tradition – proposing cooperation with Based Blacks eager for an alliance with white conservatives and nationalists, who are pretty numerous, albeit only in his imagination.

  625. @utu
    @German_reader

    What you describe is what was constructed long after the War and it got worse with the passage of time when the 2 dimensional Nazis cartoons for 'reiner Tor' were being constructed ad infinitum and the real 'Nazis' were lost. You totally underestimate or even are unaware of European artistic and religious elites who were setting a different tone after the war, the tone of reconciliation and of forgiveness which are essential part of our Western Civilization. People want reconciliation and they want to forgive but it becomes difficult when the fire of hate is being stoked. Who did supply he fuel for this fire? Who kept it going?

    You probably are not aware of the letter of Polish Bishops written to their German counterparts already in 1965 that began with the words "We forgive and ask for forgiveness". You probably are not familiar with Polish or Russian and even American cinematography created in the first 20 years after the war. They were not blood thirsty and vengeance was not emphasized. People were still conditioned by the ethos of European education that vengeance was bad and not just Christians bad even for the ones who underwent the indoctrination by the godless Komsomol like Dmitri or Karlin parents. You have never heard of 1961 Polish movie "Tonight a City Will Die" about the annihilation of Dresden. Here it is in its Russian version:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hS2wZfFv94k

    Kurt Vonnegut in 1969 wrote the most powerful and very beautiful anti-war novel "Slaughterhouse-Five, or The Children's Crusade: A Duty-Dance with Death" centered on the destruction of Dresden. Where are the other anti-war novels written after the WWII while so many were written after the WWI? Why there are so few? After David Irving wrote The Destruction of Dresden in 1963 he was targeted by some Jewish "burglar" outfit.

    Then came the Six-Day War in 1967 and everything has changed. The Holocaust became the most important propaganda project. It all became about not forgiving and about the vengeance. This was all written using the Jewish cultural code not the European Christian code. Young generations of future 'reined Tors" are now conditioned by Tarantino's "Inglourious Basterds." I am sure they learn history and humanity form it.

    Post(trans)-humans like A. Karlin produce texts were they rationally justify mass rapes of German women and top it off with casual remarks of how great the bombings of Hiroshima and German cities were.

    Probably I am getting too old. I getting too tired to explain what people from your generation of post-humans, the Mowglis raised by the video games are unable to get.

    Replies: @German_reader, @songbird, @reiner Tor

    2 dimensional Nazis cartoons for ‘reiner Tor’

    I’m pretty sure you must have been reading someone else’s comments, not mine.

  626. @songbird
    @for-the-record

    That is interesting - definite acceleration during the 1970s and seemingly a bit of decline recently.

    The memorial in Hyde Park (1983) was supposedly the first public one built in Britain. But they are supposedly building a second one (!) in London in Victoria Gardens Tower. They are calling it the National Holocaust Memorial and presumably it will be the biggest one yet, at least in Britain. What is curious is that when they talk about it, they tack some of the other groups on, like gypsies. It will be interesting to see how long the LGBT string is, but I suppose they will spell everything out.

    My local one in Boston was built in 1995. I was very disturbed the first time I took note of it, and the nearby black heritage trail. It is definitely an attempt to grab the minds of schoolkids and tourists, and rewrite the narrative of the city into one of victimhood, when it was traditionally about freedom. It is all in imitation of the Freedom Trail, but for victimhood. A general reflection of politics. Indeed, the pols and clergy are generally there when the monuments are dedicated.

    Replies: @LondonBob

    I don’t think Victoria Gardens Tower will happen, there is a lot of opposition as it is a green space in central London, a Royal Park and a part of a world heritage site. That it was even proposed to build one, and right next to Parliament, is disturbing enough.

    I saw the one in Boston and also thought it was out of place with all the historic colonial and early American sites, also what relevance does it have to Boston.

    • Replies: @for-the-record
    @LondonBob

    I don’t think Victoria Gardens Tower will happen, there is a lot of opposition as it is a green space in central London, a Royal Park and a part of a world heritage site.

    On what grounds could anyone possibly object?


    A gently meandering path leads across a gradually rising hill, inviting ascending visitors for views of the river and Westminster. It is then revealed as a cliff edge over a fractured landscape, held up by tall patinated bronze walls which inscribe 22 paths - one for each country in which Jewish communities were decimated during the Holocaust. Both cohesive and fragmented, the paths are a shared experience only from afar; the journey through them is experienced individually, as visitors are led down into the threshold below - a space for contemplation and transition.

    The visceral, non-verbal experience, in close proximity to the bastion of democracy, may inspire future generations to connect the events of the Holocaust to other human tragedies of other times and places, and take a stance on wider issues of human rights and freedoms.
     
    http://www.ronarad.co.uk/resources/1369/03_South_East_017_project_image.jpg

    http://www.ronarad.co.uk/resources/1527/AJ004_0019326_View01_RAA_Edit_project_image.jpg

    Replies: @reiner Tor

  627. @German_reader
    @AP


    Because the Germans voted an amnesty for themselves in 1969.
     
    Incorrect, exactly the opposite of what happened. In fact the statute of limitations for murder (which had previously been 20 years) was removed after intense debate, exactly because of the need to prosecute Nazi perpetrators:
    https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verj%C3%A4hrungsdebatte#Die_Verj%C3%A4hrungsdebatte_vom_26._Juni_1969

    Of course even many high-ranking German Nazi perpetrators were never really punished, but there were investigations and trials of German perpetrators, even recently:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oskar_Gr%C3%B6ning#Criminal_charges_and_trial

    I think the Demjanjuk case was a travesty and it was problematic that German prosecutors charged him. But on the other hand, Ukrainians shouldn't complain too much. Ukrainian collaborators did go on an enthusiastic Jew-hunt in Lviv in 1941 after all, and unlike Demjanjuk they weren't under any compulsion to do so.

    Replies: @reiner Tor

    Ukraine could’ve accepted Demjanjuk if they wanted to spare him the indignity of the trial in Germany. It was the case that he couldn’t be deported from the US for years because he was stateless and no country was willing to accept him. Then, years later, some German prosecutor came up with the idea that he could be prosecuted, and got the green light. Then they used his case as a kind of a precedent (German law is not based on precedent, but still prosecutors will look to past court decisions as a kind of guideline what they can do) to start prosecuting dozens of German nonagenarians, for example an accountant from Auschwitz. The accountant was forced to tell stupid lies, which is quite a bit of an indignity, he had to say he had no idea what was going on in Auschwitz. I mean, this was a bloody war, and he was probably happy that he wasn’t sent to the front, nor did he have to do anything gruesome, just accounting. Of course he knew what the camp was for. Everyone knew. So what. Jewish leaders in Hungary in 1944 knew, but kept spreading the lies to the Jewish community that they were going to be settled in an agricultural area where food was more readily available. Eventually the charges were dropped against most of them, though their contribution was probably greater than that of this accountant. The Jewish leaders had the same motivation as the accountant: they all wanted to survive. Jewish Council membership was better than being shot or sent to Auschwitz, and being an accountant in Auschwitz was better than being sent to the Eastern Front.

  628. @LondonBob
    @songbird

    I don't think Victoria Gardens Tower will happen, there is a lot of opposition as it is a green space in central London, a Royal Park and a part of a world heritage site. That it was even proposed to build one, and right next to Parliament, is disturbing enough.

    I saw the one in Boston and also thought it was out of place with all the historic colonial and early American sites, also what relevance does it have to Boston.

    Replies: @for-the-record

    I don’t think Victoria Gardens Tower will happen, there is a lot of opposition as it is a green space in central London, a Royal Park and a part of a world heritage site.

    On what grounds could anyone possibly object?

    A gently meandering path leads across a gradually rising hill, inviting ascending visitors for views of the river and Westminster. It is then revealed as a cliff edge over a fractured landscape, held up by tall patinated bronze walls which inscribe 22 paths – one for each country in which Jewish communities were decimated during the Holocaust. Both cohesive and fragmented, the paths are a shared experience only from afar; the journey through them is experienced individually, as visitors are led down into the threshold below – a space for contemplation and transition.

    The visceral, non-verbal experience, in close proximity to the bastion of democracy, may inspire future generations to connect the events of the Holocaust to other human tragedies of other times and places, and take a stance on wider issues of human rights and freedoms.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @for-the-record

    I don’t, in principle, oppose holocaust memorials, but I don’t think they should be at the most prominent place in cities, except if there is a connection. (E.g. if they shot hundreds of Jews at a location, then there could be a memorial, and if it’s the main square, then there.) I also don’t think there should be memorials across the globe. It happened in Europe, so the memorials should be there. Israel is an obvious exception, and Jewish cultural or religious organizations could obviously place plaques on the walls of their buildings on other continents, or even raise memorials in historical Jewish quarters, e.g. in front of a synagogue.

    Another issue is that the memorials shouldn’t be hideous.

    Replies: @DFH, @songbird

  629. @for-the-record
    @LondonBob

    I don’t think Victoria Gardens Tower will happen, there is a lot of opposition as it is a green space in central London, a Royal Park and a part of a world heritage site.

    On what grounds could anyone possibly object?


    A gently meandering path leads across a gradually rising hill, inviting ascending visitors for views of the river and Westminster. It is then revealed as a cliff edge over a fractured landscape, held up by tall patinated bronze walls which inscribe 22 paths - one for each country in which Jewish communities were decimated during the Holocaust. Both cohesive and fragmented, the paths are a shared experience only from afar; the journey through them is experienced individually, as visitors are led down into the threshold below - a space for contemplation and transition.

    The visceral, non-verbal experience, in close proximity to the bastion of democracy, may inspire future generations to connect the events of the Holocaust to other human tragedies of other times and places, and take a stance on wider issues of human rights and freedoms.
     
    http://www.ronarad.co.uk/resources/1369/03_South_East_017_project_image.jpg

    http://www.ronarad.co.uk/resources/1527/AJ004_0019326_View01_RAA_Edit_project_image.jpg

    Replies: @reiner Tor

    I don’t, in principle, oppose holocaust memorials, but I don’t think they should be at the most prominent place in cities, except if there is a connection. (E.g. if they shot hundreds of Jews at a location, then there could be a memorial, and if it’s the main square, then there.) I also don’t think there should be memorials across the globe. It happened in Europe, so the memorials should be there. Israel is an obvious exception, and Jewish cultural or religious organizations could obviously place plaques on the walls of their buildings on other continents, or even raise memorials in historical Jewish quarters, e.g. in front of a synagogue.

    Another issue is that the memorials shouldn’t be hideous.

    • Replies: @DFH
    @reiner Tor


    I don’t, in principle, oppose holocaust memorials, but I don’t think they should be at the most prominent place in cities, except if there is a connection. (E.g. if they shot hundreds of Jews at a location, then there could be a memorial, and if it’s the main square, then there.) I also don’t think there should be memorials across the globe. It happened in Europe, so the memorials should be there.
     
    They shouldn't exist anywhere except maybe in Israel. Commemorating things which you (supposedly) did to other peoples is bizarre, probably psychologically unhealthy and no other race of people apart from Northern Europeans (and even then, under heavy Jewish pressure) would do it.

    But they especially shouldn't be in London, where obviously no Jews were killed. The obvious thing to do if they had to (although I would also oppose this) would be to have something commemorating defeating Nazism or Fascism (like the memorial to the Communist volunteers in Spain, which at least has a good line from Byron on) but I suppose that would lack the implication of British people being guilty for something which is the whole point of the thing.

    Replies: @reiner Tor

    , @songbird
    @reiner Tor

    That they have four or more in Brazil is pretty bizarre. Once you are in another hemisphere, it really becomes odd, but maybe they should be thought of as monuments to immigration.

    I've come to think that political art (I will specify public monuments of special interest groups) will always be somewhere on the ugly spectrum. The reasons are various: firstly, it is kind of an ethnic con, like Madoff. The artist is often a co-ethnic, who has talked his way in. Jews, in particular, skew verbal. While they are often good at math, I think they are very seldom good at visual arts. Anything spatial.

    Black monuments made by blacks tend to be ugly too. Contrast to the monument to the 54th on Boston Common (Shaw Memorial) by Saint-Gaudens (1897), who also designed some old US coins - it is reasonably aesthetically pleasing, though it encourages some historical inaccuracies, like that the regiment, which fought in the Civil War, was almost entirely black, other than its commander. Probably another factor is time. Newer monuments reflect civilizational decay.

    A third factor is that the approval process is laden with signaling value, so it will tend to evoke modern art, which seems to be ugly in order to have signaling value.

    On the other hand, nationalistic art (which involves a country rather than an expat community) can be quite interesting, even when it evokes defeat, it evokes sacrifice.

  630. @reiner Tor
    @for-the-record

    I don’t, in principle, oppose holocaust memorials, but I don’t think they should be at the most prominent place in cities, except if there is a connection. (E.g. if they shot hundreds of Jews at a location, then there could be a memorial, and if it’s the main square, then there.) I also don’t think there should be memorials across the globe. It happened in Europe, so the memorials should be there. Israel is an obvious exception, and Jewish cultural or religious organizations could obviously place plaques on the walls of their buildings on other continents, or even raise memorials in historical Jewish quarters, e.g. in front of a synagogue.

    Another issue is that the memorials shouldn’t be hideous.

    Replies: @DFH, @songbird

    I don’t, in principle, oppose holocaust memorials, but I don’t think they should be at the most prominent place in cities, except if there is a connection. (E.g. if they shot hundreds of Jews at a location, then there could be a memorial, and if it’s the main square, then there.) I also don’t think there should be memorials across the globe. It happened in Europe, so the memorials should be there.

    They shouldn’t exist anywhere except maybe in Israel. Commemorating things which you (supposedly) did to other peoples is bizarre, probably psychologically unhealthy and no other race of people apart from Northern Europeans (and even then, under heavy Jewish pressure) would do it.

    But they especially shouldn’t be in London, where obviously no Jews were killed. The obvious thing to do if they had to (although I would also oppose this) would be to have something commemorating defeating Nazism or Fascism (like the memorial to the Communist volunteers in Spain, which at least has a good line from Byron on) but I suppose that would lack the implication of British people being guilty for something which is the whole point of the thing.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @DFH


    Commemorating things which you (supposedly) did to other peoples
     
    But that’s not entirely true. In most places you can argue that it wasn’t the locals who did it, at least they didn’t organize it. And Jews were at least to an extent part of the local community, even if there were issues with their presence and long term it would have been better if they left. Just an example, my grandma worked at a shoe factory. (A very small factory with little automation.) Her master (longtime boss who taught her the trade) was Jewish. She liked him a lot. Decades later she lamented his death, he committed suicide with his wife the night before they had to move to the ghetto. The Jews would be deported a few weeks later anyway. I find it appropriate that in the small city where this happened, and I grew up several decades later, there is a plaque where previously the synagogue had been.

    So it’s basically just a memorial to a group of locals who had been massacred by an occupying power. Yes, there were some local accomplices, but they didn’t organize it or conceive of the idea in the first place.

    Only in Germany can you argue that it was Germans who were the primary perpetrators, while the vast majority of the victims weren’t even locals.

    Replies: @DFH, @German_reader

  631. @szopen
    @DFH

    It's really a no-brainer. Banning some no-name from the west in return for some signalling points, while refusing to ban him = one more argument for the west and for the internal opposition to call current government "fascists". And here they can say "see, we banned this awful rascist... eee what was his name? Haredi Taylor? That's right! We are not racists!"

    Replies: @Epigon, @DFH, @reiner Tor

    I think the virtue signaling benefit is basically nonexistent. In Hungary Richard Spencer was kicked out on Orbán’s personal decision after the liberal press created a minor scandal about the supposed neo-Nazi conference. After that the same liberal press published a few articles about how problematic it is that the prime minister could make such decisions to shut down this conference, racist or not, this suddenly became a question of liberty and human rights and maybe even freedom of expression. Okay, there were more articles about the horrors of the racist conference, so probably Orbán was better off this way, but the benefits either way were minimal.

    I’m opposed to gaining virtue signaling points by punching right. It’s also a kind of national psychopathy to not care for other countries in the same civilization. It’s also pretty shortsighted. The fate of Poland will be decided in Western Europe and the US. You cannot seriously believe that Poland will have a peaceful affluent bourgeois society with 99% white Poles with the rest of Europe in the state of a Lebanon style civil war among the different Muslim and African factions and the US under an anti-white half black Hindu president. We should at least do minimal damage to the people fighting this future there.

    • Agree: RadicalCenter
    • Replies: @DFH
    @reiner Tor

    I have heard Spencer say before that it was alt-light/Breitbart people who contacted the Hungarian authorities to try and get him banned

    Replies: @reiner Tor

    , @szopen
    @reiner Tor


    You cannot seriously believe that Poland will have a peaceful affluent bourgeois society with 99% white Poles with the rest of Europe in the state of a Lebanon style civil war among the different Muslim and African factions and the US under an anti-white half black Hindu president.
     
    It does not matter what I believe. The reality is as it is: we have government which is not as based as some in the West believed, a government which actually is ready to go for "we are not racists!" signalling whenever is the need, plus we have administration infiltrated by idiots educated in progressive universities.
  632. @DFH
    @reiner Tor


    I don’t, in principle, oppose holocaust memorials, but I don’t think they should be at the most prominent place in cities, except if there is a connection. (E.g. if they shot hundreds of Jews at a location, then there could be a memorial, and if it’s the main square, then there.) I also don’t think there should be memorials across the globe. It happened in Europe, so the memorials should be there.
     
    They shouldn't exist anywhere except maybe in Israel. Commemorating things which you (supposedly) did to other peoples is bizarre, probably psychologically unhealthy and no other race of people apart from Northern Europeans (and even then, under heavy Jewish pressure) would do it.

    But they especially shouldn't be in London, where obviously no Jews were killed. The obvious thing to do if they had to (although I would also oppose this) would be to have something commemorating defeating Nazism or Fascism (like the memorial to the Communist volunteers in Spain, which at least has a good line from Byron on) but I suppose that would lack the implication of British people being guilty for something which is the whole point of the thing.

    Replies: @reiner Tor

    Commemorating things which you (supposedly) did to other peoples

    But that’s not entirely true. In most places you can argue that it wasn’t the locals who did it, at least they didn’t organize it. And Jews were at least to an extent part of the local community, even if there were issues with their presence and long term it would have been better if they left. Just an example, my grandma worked at a shoe factory. (A very small factory with little automation.) Her master (longtime boss who taught her the trade) was Jewish. She liked him a lot. Decades later she lamented his death, he committed suicide with his wife the night before they had to move to the ghetto. The Jews would be deported a few weeks later anyway. I find it appropriate that in the small city where this happened, and I grew up several decades later, there is a plaque where previously the synagogue had been.

    So it’s basically just a memorial to a group of locals who had been massacred by an occupying power. Yes, there were some local accomplices, but they didn’t organize it or conceive of the idea in the first place.

    Only in Germany can you argue that it was Germans who were the primary perpetrators, while the vast majority of the victims weren’t even locals.

    • Replies: @DFH
    @reiner Tor

    I suppose I can understand that justification

    , @German_reader
    @reiner Tor


    Only in Germany can you argue that it was Germans who were the primary perpetrators, while the vast majority of the victims weren’t even locals.

     

    In Germany you've got that kind of commemoration in probably every major city:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stolperstein

    At first I thought, ok, if German Jews were deported to concentration camps and were murdered there, the least one can do is commemorate their names. But I have to admit I've changed my mind about this and have come to resent those Stolpersteine. They not only commemorate Jews who were actually murdered, but also those who managed to escape to Latin America or some other Western country...no doubt being forced to emigrate because of racial persecution was a terrible experience, but was it really that much worse than what happened to many other people in the first half of the 20th century? And then you've got commemorative stones for lefties persecuted by the Nazis. Not even always killed, maybe just imprisoned (there's one like that just a few streets from me). And not just for Social Democrats, but also for Communists (iirc there's one even for Ernst Thälmann now). Were Communists really that much more innocent than the average NSDAP member?
    The intention to me clearly seems to be to perpetuate a community of guilt, forever, to turn all of Germany into a permanent memorial for Nazi crimes and to remind the descendants of the Volksgenossen (the majority of Germans during the Third Reich of course weren't actively opposed to Nazism, and the NSDAP had eight million members by 1945) of the supposedly unique guilt of their ancestors, with self-righteous left-wingers appointing themselves as the enlightened teachers of the rest of us. The flipside of that is that pretty much any commemoration of German WW2 dead has been given up.
    imo there is a link between this increasingly warped culture of remembrance and what has been going on in Germany over the last few years. But it's probably pointless to complain about things which can't be changed.

    Replies: @LondonBob, @songbird, @reiner Tor

  633. @reiner Tor
    @szopen

    I think the virtue signaling benefit is basically nonexistent. In Hungary Richard Spencer was kicked out on Orbán’s personal decision after the liberal press created a minor scandal about the supposed neo-Nazi conference. After that the same liberal press published a few articles about how problematic it is that the prime minister could make such decisions to shut down this conference, racist or not, this suddenly became a question of liberty and human rights and maybe even freedom of expression. Okay, there were more articles about the horrors of the racist conference, so probably Orbán was better off this way, but the benefits either way were minimal.

    I’m opposed to gaining virtue signaling points by punching right. It’s also a kind of national psychopathy to not care for other countries in the same civilization. It’s also pretty shortsighted. The fate of Poland will be decided in Western Europe and the US. You cannot seriously believe that Poland will have a peaceful affluent bourgeois society with 99% white Poles with the rest of Europe in the state of a Lebanon style civil war among the different Muslim and African factions and the US under an anti-white half black Hindu president. We should at least do minimal damage to the people fighting this future there.

    Replies: @DFH, @szopen

    I have heard Spencer say before that it was alt-light/Breitbart people who contacted the Hungarian authorities to try and get him banned

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @DFH

    Then they must have contacted the Hungarian liberal press, too, because roughly a week or two before the planned conference the liberal press started to write articles about the horrible racist neo-Nazi conference. I’m pretty sure this was the decisive factor for Orbán, unless some foreign leaders or services asked him to do that. Alt-lite foreigners (basically nobodies) cannot have been more important to Orbán than the Hungarian liberal press.

    Replies: @reiner Tor

  634. @reiner Tor
    @DFH


    Commemorating things which you (supposedly) did to other peoples
     
    But that’s not entirely true. In most places you can argue that it wasn’t the locals who did it, at least they didn’t organize it. And Jews were at least to an extent part of the local community, even if there were issues with their presence and long term it would have been better if they left. Just an example, my grandma worked at a shoe factory. (A very small factory with little automation.) Her master (longtime boss who taught her the trade) was Jewish. She liked him a lot. Decades later she lamented his death, he committed suicide with his wife the night before they had to move to the ghetto. The Jews would be deported a few weeks later anyway. I find it appropriate that in the small city where this happened, and I grew up several decades later, there is a plaque where previously the synagogue had been.

    So it’s basically just a memorial to a group of locals who had been massacred by an occupying power. Yes, there were some local accomplices, but they didn’t organize it or conceive of the idea in the first place.

    Only in Germany can you argue that it was Germans who were the primary perpetrators, while the vast majority of the victims weren’t even locals.

    Replies: @DFH, @German_reader

    I suppose I can understand that justification

  635. @DFH
    @reiner Tor

    I have heard Spencer say before that it was alt-light/Breitbart people who contacted the Hungarian authorities to try and get him banned

    Replies: @reiner Tor

    Then they must have contacted the Hungarian liberal press, too, because roughly a week or two before the planned conference the liberal press started to write articles about the horrible racist neo-Nazi conference. I’m pretty sure this was the decisive factor for Orbán, unless some foreign leaders or services asked him to do that. Alt-lite foreigners (basically nobodies) cannot have been more important to Orbán than the Hungarian liberal press.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @reiner Tor

    Anyway, I seriously doubt that Orbán gained much by kicking Spencer and his conference out. Though Spencer was useless anyway, so probably not much was lost, but I just don’t like the idea.

    Replies: @Dmitry

  636. @reiner Tor
    @DFH

    Then they must have contacted the Hungarian liberal press, too, because roughly a week or two before the planned conference the liberal press started to write articles about the horrible racist neo-Nazi conference. I’m pretty sure this was the decisive factor for Orbán, unless some foreign leaders or services asked him to do that. Alt-lite foreigners (basically nobodies) cannot have been more important to Orbán than the Hungarian liberal press.

    Replies: @reiner Tor

    Anyway, I seriously doubt that Orbán gained much by kicking Spencer and his conference out. Though Spencer was useless anyway, so probably not much was lost, but I just don’t like the idea.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @reiner Tor

    Spencer seems to be a kind of marketing troll who was suddenly placed on stage by media in 2016 (with some preparation for him during late 2015), with the motive of attacking Trump - or whoever would be Republican candidate - by Pavlovian conditioning.

    If you search for Richard Spencer before 2015 - it almost only finds other people with the same name, including World Bank economists. It seems like his public presence was created for mass promotion during the 2016 election.

    Before 2015, he seems almost not to have existed in the public space and had less search optimization than the other normal, non-famous people with his name.

    But in 2016, he was suddenly leader of American nationalists, and one of the most important people in the Presidential election, according to the media - a comical villain, associated exclusively with Donald Trump.

    The actual person, Spencer, seemed to be quite irrelevant to media narrative. He has children with a not really racially European woman, who is a SJW according to Karlin.

    So actual Spencer life was less "white nationalist" than most normal people, in their real life, but at the same time he has a certain haircut and sunglasses, which was useful for CNN or New York Times as a cartoon 21st century American Nazi.

    I'm surprised media did not use him yet to create some Pavlovian association of the new "American Nazi" with Orban or Putin.

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @German_reader

  637. For those people here who think the concept of hate crimes is stupid, why aren’t these people criticizing Singapore, because its IQ is high?

    • Replies: @songbird
    @Kiwikiwikiwi

    Actually, I will criticize Singapore: it is an IQ shredder. Its TFR is abominable. They should be breeding smart, high TFR Chinese and exporting them back to China to repay for the ones they absorbed and deadended.

    I'll add I'd be perfectly willing to give some lipservice to multiculturalism, if it meant having a 74% Euro (more multicult than Han!) city state, with a nice harbor at a major bottleneck of shipping lines. Is there another one open for settlement in Malaysia?

  638. @Kiwikiwikiwi
    For those people here who think the concept of hate crimes is stupid, why aren't these people criticizing Singapore, because its IQ is high?

    Replies: @songbird

    Actually, I will criticize Singapore: it is an IQ shredder. Its TFR is abominable. They should be breeding smart, high TFR Chinese and exporting them back to China to repay for the ones they absorbed and deadended.

    I’ll add I’d be perfectly willing to give some lipservice to multiculturalism, if it meant having a 74% Euro (more multicult than Han!) city state, with a nice harbor at a major bottleneck of shipping lines. Is there another one open for settlement in Malaysia?

  639. @reiner Tor
    @szopen

    I think the virtue signaling benefit is basically nonexistent. In Hungary Richard Spencer was kicked out on Orbán’s personal decision after the liberal press created a minor scandal about the supposed neo-Nazi conference. After that the same liberal press published a few articles about how problematic it is that the prime minister could make such decisions to shut down this conference, racist or not, this suddenly became a question of liberty and human rights and maybe even freedom of expression. Okay, there were more articles about the horrors of the racist conference, so probably Orbán was better off this way, but the benefits either way were minimal.

    I’m opposed to gaining virtue signaling points by punching right. It’s also a kind of national psychopathy to not care for other countries in the same civilization. It’s also pretty shortsighted. The fate of Poland will be decided in Western Europe and the US. You cannot seriously believe that Poland will have a peaceful affluent bourgeois society with 99% white Poles with the rest of Europe in the state of a Lebanon style civil war among the different Muslim and African factions and the US under an anti-white half black Hindu president. We should at least do minimal damage to the people fighting this future there.

    Replies: @DFH, @szopen

    You cannot seriously believe that Poland will have a peaceful affluent bourgeois society with 99% white Poles with the rest of Europe in the state of a Lebanon style civil war among the different Muslim and African factions and the US under an anti-white half black Hindu president.

    It does not matter what I believe. The reality is as it is: we have government which is not as based as some in the West believed, a government which actually is ready to go for “we are not racists!” signalling whenever is the need, plus we have administration infiltrated by idiots educated in progressive universities.

    • Agree: reiner Tor
  640. German_reader says:
    @reiner Tor
    @DFH


    Commemorating things which you (supposedly) did to other peoples
     
    But that’s not entirely true. In most places you can argue that it wasn’t the locals who did it, at least they didn’t organize it. And Jews were at least to an extent part of the local community, even if there were issues with their presence and long term it would have been better if they left. Just an example, my grandma worked at a shoe factory. (A very small factory with little automation.) Her master (longtime boss who taught her the trade) was Jewish. She liked him a lot. Decades later she lamented his death, he committed suicide with his wife the night before they had to move to the ghetto. The Jews would be deported a few weeks later anyway. I find it appropriate that in the small city where this happened, and I grew up several decades later, there is a plaque where previously the synagogue had been.

    So it’s basically just a memorial to a group of locals who had been massacred by an occupying power. Yes, there were some local accomplices, but they didn’t organize it or conceive of the idea in the first place.

    Only in Germany can you argue that it was Germans who were the primary perpetrators, while the vast majority of the victims weren’t even locals.

    Replies: @DFH, @German_reader

    Only in Germany can you argue that it was Germans who were the primary perpetrators, while the vast majority of the victims weren’t even locals.

    In Germany you’ve got that kind of commemoration in probably every major city:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stolperstein

    At first I thought, ok, if German Jews were deported to concentration camps and were murdered there, the least one can do is commemorate their names. But I have to admit I’ve changed my mind about this and have come to resent those Stolpersteine. They not only commemorate Jews who were actually murdered, but also those who managed to escape to Latin America or some other Western country…no doubt being forced to emigrate because of racial persecution was a terrible experience, but was it really that much worse than what happened to many other people in the first half of the 20th century? And then you’ve got commemorative stones for lefties persecuted by the Nazis. Not even always killed, maybe just imprisoned (there’s one like that just a few streets from me). And not just for Social Democrats, but also for Communists (iirc there’s one even for Ernst Thälmann now). Were Communists really that much more innocent than the average NSDAP member?
    The intention to me clearly seems to be to perpetuate a community of guilt, forever, to turn all of Germany into a permanent memorial for Nazi crimes and to remind the descendants of the Volksgenossen (the majority of Germans during the Third Reich of course weren’t actively opposed to Nazism, and the NSDAP had eight million members by 1945) of the supposedly unique guilt of their ancestors, with self-righteous left-wingers appointing themselves as the enlightened teachers of the rest of us. The flipside of that is that pretty much any commemoration of German WW2 dead has been given up.
    imo there is a link between this increasingly warped culture of remembrance and what has been going on in Germany over the last few years. But it’s probably pointless to complain about things which can’t be changed.

    • Replies: @LondonBob
    @German_reader

    At that point in time Communists were far worse than Nazis, one had already committed genocide. Tragedies happen all the time, I don't see monuments to the victims of the Viking raids or Norman conquest around me. Such things are always political weapons for manipulating the present day.

    , @songbird
    @German_reader

    Holy cow: 70,000 by 2018! That's incredible!

    The most obviously pernicious monuments are those that are designed to have geographic spread. The Lynching Museum in Montgomery is a special case. It hosts monuments which are meant to shame 800 counties into accepting lynching monuments. The replicas are already built and on display. It is like something biological, giving birth to 800 eggs. Some have already been transplanted.

    What is really funny is that it hosts more than 800 jars from the sites where black lynchings took place. It really evokes Dracula shipping in his Transylvanian soil. I might add many were likely murderers and rapists, and there are no monuments to the many obviously innocent whites killed by crowds of blacks.

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @DFH

    , @reiner Tor
    @German_reader

    Yes, Holocaustianity is a pretty annoying religion. It’s possible that a balanced approach to remembrance is impossible. If we started the process of dismantling the most egregious examples of these memorials, they’d soon all be scrapped. I agree it’s better not to remember than this warped “remembrance,” which is basically a suicide cult.

    Basically they take a few normal things (remembrance of the innocent, the fact that there was an organized mass slaughter of millions of civilians, etc.), and blow it all out of proportions and use it for a horrible propaganda.

  641. @reiner Tor
    @for-the-record

    I don’t, in principle, oppose holocaust memorials, but I don’t think they should be at the most prominent place in cities, except if there is a connection. (E.g. if they shot hundreds of Jews at a location, then there could be a memorial, and if it’s the main square, then there.) I also don’t think there should be memorials across the globe. It happened in Europe, so the memorials should be there. Israel is an obvious exception, and Jewish cultural or religious organizations could obviously place plaques on the walls of their buildings on other continents, or even raise memorials in historical Jewish quarters, e.g. in front of a synagogue.

    Another issue is that the memorials shouldn’t be hideous.

    Replies: @DFH, @songbird

    That they have four or more in Brazil is pretty bizarre. Once you are in another hemisphere, it really becomes odd, but maybe they should be thought of as monuments to immigration.

    I’ve come to think that political art (I will specify public monuments of special interest groups) will always be somewhere on the ugly spectrum. The reasons are various: firstly, it is kind of an ethnic con, like Madoff. The artist is often a co-ethnic, who has talked his way in. Jews, in particular, skew verbal. While they are often good at math, I think they are very seldom good at visual arts. Anything spatial.

    Black monuments made by blacks tend to be ugly too. Contrast to the monument to the 54th on Boston Common (Shaw Memorial) by Saint-Gaudens (1897), who also designed some old US coins – it is reasonably aesthetically pleasing, though it encourages some historical inaccuracies, like that the regiment, which fought in the Civil War, was almost entirely black, other than its commander. Probably another factor is time. Newer monuments reflect civilizational decay.

    A third factor is that the approval process is laden with signaling value, so it will tend to evoke modern art, which seems to be ugly in order to have signaling value.

    On the other hand, nationalistic art (which involves a country rather than an expat community) can be quite interesting, even when it evokes defeat, it evokes sacrifice.

  642. @German_reader
    @reiner Tor


    Only in Germany can you argue that it was Germans who were the primary perpetrators, while the vast majority of the victims weren’t even locals.

     

    In Germany you've got that kind of commemoration in probably every major city:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stolperstein

    At first I thought, ok, if German Jews were deported to concentration camps and were murdered there, the least one can do is commemorate their names. But I have to admit I've changed my mind about this and have come to resent those Stolpersteine. They not only commemorate Jews who were actually murdered, but also those who managed to escape to Latin America or some other Western country...no doubt being forced to emigrate because of racial persecution was a terrible experience, but was it really that much worse than what happened to many other people in the first half of the 20th century? And then you've got commemorative stones for lefties persecuted by the Nazis. Not even always killed, maybe just imprisoned (there's one like that just a few streets from me). And not just for Social Democrats, but also for Communists (iirc there's one even for Ernst Thälmann now). Were Communists really that much more innocent than the average NSDAP member?
    The intention to me clearly seems to be to perpetuate a community of guilt, forever, to turn all of Germany into a permanent memorial for Nazi crimes and to remind the descendants of the Volksgenossen (the majority of Germans during the Third Reich of course weren't actively opposed to Nazism, and the NSDAP had eight million members by 1945) of the supposedly unique guilt of their ancestors, with self-righteous left-wingers appointing themselves as the enlightened teachers of the rest of us. The flipside of that is that pretty much any commemoration of German WW2 dead has been given up.
    imo there is a link between this increasingly warped culture of remembrance and what has been going on in Germany over the last few years. But it's probably pointless to complain about things which can't be changed.

    Replies: @LondonBob, @songbird, @reiner Tor

    At that point in time Communists were far worse than Nazis, one had already committed genocide. Tragedies happen all the time, I don’t see monuments to the victims of the Viking raids or Norman conquest around me. Such things are always political weapons for manipulating the present day.

  643. @German_reader
    @reiner Tor


    Only in Germany can you argue that it was Germans who were the primary perpetrators, while the vast majority of the victims weren’t even locals.

     

    In Germany you've got that kind of commemoration in probably every major city:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stolperstein

    At first I thought, ok, if German Jews were deported to concentration camps and were murdered there, the least one can do is commemorate their names. But I have to admit I've changed my mind about this and have come to resent those Stolpersteine. They not only commemorate Jews who were actually murdered, but also those who managed to escape to Latin America or some other Western country...no doubt being forced to emigrate because of racial persecution was a terrible experience, but was it really that much worse than what happened to many other people in the first half of the 20th century? And then you've got commemorative stones for lefties persecuted by the Nazis. Not even always killed, maybe just imprisoned (there's one like that just a few streets from me). And not just for Social Democrats, but also for Communists (iirc there's one even for Ernst Thälmann now). Were Communists really that much more innocent than the average NSDAP member?
    The intention to me clearly seems to be to perpetuate a community of guilt, forever, to turn all of Germany into a permanent memorial for Nazi crimes and to remind the descendants of the Volksgenossen (the majority of Germans during the Third Reich of course weren't actively opposed to Nazism, and the NSDAP had eight million members by 1945) of the supposedly unique guilt of their ancestors, with self-righteous left-wingers appointing themselves as the enlightened teachers of the rest of us. The flipside of that is that pretty much any commemoration of German WW2 dead has been given up.
    imo there is a link between this increasingly warped culture of remembrance and what has been going on in Germany over the last few years. But it's probably pointless to complain about things which can't be changed.

    Replies: @LondonBob, @songbird, @reiner Tor

    Holy cow: 70,000 by 2018! That’s incredible!

    The most obviously pernicious monuments are those that are designed to have geographic spread. The Lynching Museum in Montgomery is a special case. It hosts monuments which are meant to shame 800 counties into accepting lynching monuments. The replicas are already built and on display. It is like something biological, giving birth to 800 eggs. Some have already been transplanted.

    What is really funny is that it hosts more than 800 jars from the sites where black lynchings took place. It really evokes Dracula shipping in his Transylvanian soil. I might add many were likely murderers and rapists, and there are no monuments to the many obviously innocent whites killed by crowds of blacks.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @songbird

    I think a sensible approach is a moratorium on the building of any new holocaust memorials. It happened three quarters of a century ago. Even in the former Eastern Bloc, we’ve now had several decades of democracy when we could decide for ourselves what to commemorate. In Hungary for example we’ve had twelve years of leftist governments, some of it during prosperous times. Between 2002 and 2006 all big cities except Debrecen had leftist (socialist or free democratic) mayors. Budapest had a liberal (Free Democrat) mayor 1990-2010, with a coalition of socialist and free democratic majority in the council. The vast majority of Budapest’s districts had a Free Democrat or Socialist mayor and council majority during the first two decades after 1990. Anything they didn’t feel the need to build a monument to then is certainly not very important to commemorate even from a leftist point of view. As time goes and the event fades away, the need could only decrease.

    Of course they are pushing for those monuments more and more. Precisely because the purpose is not to commemorate the victims (who have long been forgotten), but to push for their particular ideology.

    Replies: @German_reader, @Jaakko Raipala

    , @DFH
    @songbird

    Do they commemorate the lynchings of obvious criminals, paedophiles, rapists and murderers there?

    Replies: @songbird

  644. @German_reader
    @reiner Tor


    Only in Germany can you argue that it was Germans who were the primary perpetrators, while the vast majority of the victims weren’t even locals.

     

    In Germany you've got that kind of commemoration in probably every major city:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stolperstein

    At first I thought, ok, if German Jews were deported to concentration camps and were murdered there, the least one can do is commemorate their names. But I have to admit I've changed my mind about this and have come to resent those Stolpersteine. They not only commemorate Jews who were actually murdered, but also those who managed to escape to Latin America or some other Western country...no doubt being forced to emigrate because of racial persecution was a terrible experience, but was it really that much worse than what happened to many other people in the first half of the 20th century? And then you've got commemorative stones for lefties persecuted by the Nazis. Not even always killed, maybe just imprisoned (there's one like that just a few streets from me). And not just for Social Democrats, but also for Communists (iirc there's one even for Ernst Thälmann now). Were Communists really that much more innocent than the average NSDAP member?
    The intention to me clearly seems to be to perpetuate a community of guilt, forever, to turn all of Germany into a permanent memorial for Nazi crimes and to remind the descendants of the Volksgenossen (the majority of Germans during the Third Reich of course weren't actively opposed to Nazism, and the NSDAP had eight million members by 1945) of the supposedly unique guilt of their ancestors, with self-righteous left-wingers appointing themselves as the enlightened teachers of the rest of us. The flipside of that is that pretty much any commemoration of German WW2 dead has been given up.
    imo there is a link between this increasingly warped culture of remembrance and what has been going on in Germany over the last few years. But it's probably pointless to complain about things which can't be changed.

    Replies: @LondonBob, @songbird, @reiner Tor

    Yes, Holocaustianity is a pretty annoying religion. It’s possible that a balanced approach to remembrance is impossible. If we started the process of dismantling the most egregious examples of these memorials, they’d soon all be scrapped. I agree it’s better not to remember than this warped “remembrance,” which is basically a suicide cult.

    Basically they take a few normal things (remembrance of the innocent, the fact that there was an organized mass slaughter of millions of civilians, etc.), and blow it all out of proportions and use it for a horrible propaganda.

  645. For any operant conditioning, museums of genocide should be as ugly designed as possible.

    But even more more ugly, should be museums about war and military history. As long as it does not offend sensitivity of still living veterans, the museums should be full of skeletons, photos of one armed cripples, and the use scents in the museum that smells of dead bodies, which are the harvest of any war.

    From the 19th century, especially, there was a problem of beautiful commemorations to war – think about the glamour of Napoleon’s tomb in Paris, and compare it to what must of have been the reality of a battlefield, after an unnecessary war by Napoleon.

    On the other hand, museums of science, engineering and education, should be the most beautiful places in any city, with good looking staff, harmonized buildings, and multicoloured glass.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @Dmitry


    even more more ugly, should be museums about war and military history
     
    Museums and monuments of wars should inspire future generations to fight for their countries. Motivation can only work inside your country. Therefore, if you build ugly museums, they will only discourage your own population from war. This is not very stable, because if other countries like China or the US will continue to glorify the military, they will have an advantage over us. This is actually happening now, with many European countries extremely weak with pacifistic populations.

    Replies: @Dmitry

    , @German_reader
    @Dmitry


    the museums should be full of skeletons, photos of one armed cripples, and the use scents in the museum that smells of dead bodies, which are the harvest of any war.
     
    I don't think that "show people blood and guts and they'll be against war" approach really works...anti-war films which rely on it are never very effective imo.
    It also ignores political questions. There are a lot of horrible photographs from the American civil war, of the dead rotting on the battlefields, often with their shirts torn off, because they had checked if they had been shot in the stomach (which was a death sentence then); also many of horribly mutilated veterans. Yet many Americans would still say it was worth it to preserve the Union and to abolish slavery.
    There are worse things than war after all, so it's always a political calculation.

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @songbird

  646. @songbird
    @German_reader

    Holy cow: 70,000 by 2018! That's incredible!

    The most obviously pernicious monuments are those that are designed to have geographic spread. The Lynching Museum in Montgomery is a special case. It hosts monuments which are meant to shame 800 counties into accepting lynching monuments. The replicas are already built and on display. It is like something biological, giving birth to 800 eggs. Some have already been transplanted.

    What is really funny is that it hosts more than 800 jars from the sites where black lynchings took place. It really evokes Dracula shipping in his Transylvanian soil. I might add many were likely murderers and rapists, and there are no monuments to the many obviously innocent whites killed by crowds of blacks.

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @DFH

    I think a sensible approach is a moratorium on the building of any new holocaust memorials. It happened three quarters of a century ago. Even in the former Eastern Bloc, we’ve now had several decades of democracy when we could decide for ourselves what to commemorate. In Hungary for example we’ve had twelve years of leftist governments, some of it during prosperous times. Between 2002 and 2006 all big cities except Debrecen had leftist (socialist or free democratic) mayors. Budapest had a liberal (Free Democrat) mayor 1990-2010, with a coalition of socialist and free democratic majority in the council. The vast majority of Budapest’s districts had a Free Democrat or Socialist mayor and council majority during the first two decades after 1990. Anything they didn’t feel the need to build a monument to then is certainly not very important to commemorate even from a leftist point of view. As time goes and the event fades away, the need could only decrease.

    Of course they are pushing for those monuments more and more. Precisely because the purpose is not to commemorate the victims (who have long been forgotten), but to push for their particular ideology.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @reiner Tor


    It happened three quarters of a century ago.
     
    There's also more and more of lobbying for commemorating colonial atrocities which happened even longer ago. And one can certainly expect more of that with the growth of the African-descended population in Europe.
    , @Jaakko Raipala
    @reiner Tor

    It seems to me that cuckservative and centrist governments are much more likely to build Holocaust memorials than leftists. Leftists usually want monuments to cult figures like Marx, Lenin, Mandela etc or some abstract monstrosities that portray the struggle of the proletariat or whatever. They occasionally do like an ugly Holocaust monument to desecrate a "right-wing" or "traditional" space, of course.

    I don't think we had a single Holocaust memorial in Finland back when we were a Soviet vassal state with powerful socialist parties and commies. I don't even remember reading about it in school history books - it probably was there but the Holocaust just wasn't considered nowhere near as important by leftists as the atrocities of the Civil War. The most evil man in history wasn't Hitler, it was either Nikolai II or general Mannerheim.

    Now that we are a EU/American vassal ruled by nominally "right-wing" parties there's no escaping the constant Holocaust propaganda. It's pretty damn offensive considering that there's been absolutely zero persecution of Jews in this country, ever, and especially not during WWII when we really stood out as the Axis country where Jewish citizens weren't treated any different from anyone else fighting for the good crusade against Bolshevism.

    Also another offensive thing is constant stuff about how we constantly hear that some Jew was killed in the camps because he wasn't accepted into Finland - we were in the middle of a world war so we turned back nearly all foreigners, it would be beyond stupid to do anything less.

    Replies: @songbird

  647. @reiner Tor
    @reiner Tor

    Anyway, I seriously doubt that Orbán gained much by kicking Spencer and his conference out. Though Spencer was useless anyway, so probably not much was lost, but I just don’t like the idea.

    Replies: @Dmitry

    Spencer seems to be a kind of marketing troll who was suddenly placed on stage by media in 2016 (with some preparation for him during late 2015), with the motive of attacking Trump – or whoever would be Republican candidate – by Pavlovian conditioning.

    If you search for Richard Spencer before 2015 – it almost only finds other people with the same name, including World Bank economists. It seems like his public presence was created for mass promotion during the 2016 election.

    Before 2015, he seems almost not to have existed in the public space and had less search optimization than the other normal, non-famous people with his name.

    But in 2016, he was suddenly leader of American nationalists, and one of the most important people in the Presidential election, according to the media – a comical villain, associated exclusively with Donald Trump.

    The actual person, Spencer, seemed to be quite irrelevant to media narrative. He has children with a not really racially European woman, who is a SJW according to Karlin.

    So actual Spencer life was less “white nationalist” than most normal people, in their real life, but at the same time he has a certain haircut and sunglasses, which was useful for CNN or New York Times as a cartoon 21st century American Nazi.

    I’m surprised media did not use him yet to create some Pavlovian association of the new “American Nazi” with Orban or Putin.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @Dmitry

    Orbán kicked him out of Hungary in October 2014.

    , @German_reader
    @Dmitry


    Before 2015, he seems almost not to have existed in the public space
     
    No, he was editor at Takimag well before that (where some really weird white nationalist, sort of neopagan stuff appeared under him, it was quite distinctive and different from what had appeared before at Takimag, clearly in line with his later statements). And before that for a short time he was even affiliated with the American conservative.
    I certainly knew of him before 2016, and I suppose many other commenters here did as well.

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @Anonymous

  648. German_reader says:
    @reiner Tor
    @songbird

    I think a sensible approach is a moratorium on the building of any new holocaust memorials. It happened three quarters of a century ago. Even in the former Eastern Bloc, we’ve now had several decades of democracy when we could decide for ourselves what to commemorate. In Hungary for example we’ve had twelve years of leftist governments, some of it during prosperous times. Between 2002 and 2006 all big cities except Debrecen had leftist (socialist or free democratic) mayors. Budapest had a liberal (Free Democrat) mayor 1990-2010, with a coalition of socialist and free democratic majority in the council. The vast majority of Budapest’s districts had a Free Democrat or Socialist mayor and council majority during the first two decades after 1990. Anything they didn’t feel the need to build a monument to then is certainly not very important to commemorate even from a leftist point of view. As time goes and the event fades away, the need could only decrease.

    Of course they are pushing for those monuments more and more. Precisely because the purpose is not to commemorate the victims (who have long been forgotten), but to push for their particular ideology.

    Replies: @German_reader, @Jaakko Raipala

    It happened three quarters of a century ago.

    There’s also more and more of lobbying for commemorating colonial atrocities which happened even longer ago. And one can certainly expect more of that with the growth of the African-descended population in Europe.

  649. @Dmitry
    For any operant conditioning, museums of genocide should be as ugly designed as possible.

    But even more more ugly, should be museums about war and military history. As long as it does not offend sensitivity of still living veterans, the museums should be full of skeletons, photos of one armed cripples, and the use scents in the museum that smells of dead bodies, which are the harvest of any war.

    From the 19th century, especially, there was a problem of beautiful commemorations to war - think about the glamour of Napoleon's tomb in Paris, and compare it to what must of have been the reality of a battlefield, after an unnecessary war by Napoleon.

    On the other hand, museums of science, engineering and education, should be the most beautiful places in any city, with good looking staff, harmonized buildings, and multicoloured glass.

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @German_reader

    even more more ugly, should be museums about war and military history

    Museums and monuments of wars should inspire future generations to fight for their countries. Motivation can only work inside your country. Therefore, if you build ugly museums, they will only discourage your own population from war. This is not very stable, because if other countries like China or the US will continue to glorify the military, they will have an advantage over us. This is actually happening now, with many European countries extremely weak with pacifistic populations.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @reiner Tor

    War museum, is not anti-war - it should simply be accurate and unpleasant.

    It should show people the most notable consequences of war.

    Even war museums which are based too much on people who survive the wars, are quite inaccurate. Survivors are the lucky selection of people, from those who were involved in war.

    Strongest result of war, are experiences like being shot in the stomach and bleeding painfully somewhere in the ground until you die. People who were most impacted by war and experienced the most significant consequences of a war, are generally not living at the end.

    Then we later hear from the lucky ones, who survived - as if you hear only testimonials about a casino, from people who won, or at least survived with their savings, and those who lost their fortune, have been eliminated from discussing it.


    Museums and monuments of wars should inspire future generations to fight for their countries.

     

    It can reflect on results of the war, which can sometimes be positive or important.

    Results of sacrifice in the Great Patriotic War - freedom for millions of people - are a lot more positive, than results of idiotic conflicts like Russo-Japanese War, Afghan War, Vietnam War, etc .
    So there is no generic answer to the question, of whether people should be "inspired to fight".

    However, inspired to fight for your village or city, people do not need motivation - there is natural motivation.

    Inspired to fight to conquer some foreign territory, or for some abstract ideology - it is often better people are not too inspired.


    This is actually happening now, with many European countries extremely weak with pacifistic populations.
     
    When they could still remember more unpleasant aspects of war, citizens of European countries like UK were quite lucky their government was clever enough to avoid fighting in Vietnam (after France left).

    NATO managed to avoid (even what would have been mostly costless aerial) intervention in Syria, partly because of the public's unpleasant memories of casualties in Iraq and Afghanistan.

    On the other hand, glorifying military, does not directly increase fighting ability. Mussolini's Italy, was glorifying military more than America, before Second World War. Yet Mussolini's army was ineffective in combat. Arab and Muslim countries usually glorify military, but they often lose wars. Organization and technology level of the society, is much more relevant to its abilities to fight.

    There is an issue of "military readiness" as a result of too much pacifism. However, with a couple of years preparation, a now pacifist society like Japan, would become more combat effective, than the complete Muslim world - despite the latter's glorification of millitary.

    Replies: @German_reader, @reiner Tor, @DFH

  650. @Dmitry
    @reiner Tor

    Spencer seems to be a kind of marketing troll who was suddenly placed on stage by media in 2016 (with some preparation for him during late 2015), with the motive of attacking Trump - or whoever would be Republican candidate - by Pavlovian conditioning.

    If you search for Richard Spencer before 2015 - it almost only finds other people with the same name, including World Bank economists. It seems like his public presence was created for mass promotion during the 2016 election.

    Before 2015, he seems almost not to have existed in the public space and had less search optimization than the other normal, non-famous people with his name.

    But in 2016, he was suddenly leader of American nationalists, and one of the most important people in the Presidential election, according to the media - a comical villain, associated exclusively with Donald Trump.

    The actual person, Spencer, seemed to be quite irrelevant to media narrative. He has children with a not really racially European woman, who is a SJW according to Karlin.

    So actual Spencer life was less "white nationalist" than most normal people, in their real life, but at the same time he has a certain haircut and sunglasses, which was useful for CNN or New York Times as a cartoon 21st century American Nazi.

    I'm surprised media did not use him yet to create some Pavlovian association of the new "American Nazi" with Orban or Putin.

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @German_reader

    Orbán kicked him out of Hungary in October 2014.

  651. German_reader says:
    @Dmitry
    @reiner Tor

    Spencer seems to be a kind of marketing troll who was suddenly placed on stage by media in 2016 (with some preparation for him during late 2015), with the motive of attacking Trump - or whoever would be Republican candidate - by Pavlovian conditioning.

    If you search for Richard Spencer before 2015 - it almost only finds other people with the same name, including World Bank economists. It seems like his public presence was created for mass promotion during the 2016 election.

    Before 2015, he seems almost not to have existed in the public space and had less search optimization than the other normal, non-famous people with his name.

    But in 2016, he was suddenly leader of American nationalists, and one of the most important people in the Presidential election, according to the media - a comical villain, associated exclusively with Donald Trump.

    The actual person, Spencer, seemed to be quite irrelevant to media narrative. He has children with a not really racially European woman, who is a SJW according to Karlin.

    So actual Spencer life was less "white nationalist" than most normal people, in their real life, but at the same time he has a certain haircut and sunglasses, which was useful for CNN or New York Times as a cartoon 21st century American Nazi.

    I'm surprised media did not use him yet to create some Pavlovian association of the new "American Nazi" with Orban or Putin.

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @German_reader

    Before 2015, he seems almost not to have existed in the public space

    No, he was editor at Takimag well before that (where some really weird white nationalist, sort of neopagan stuff appeared under him, it was quite distinctive and different from what had appeared before at Takimag, clearly in line with his later statements). And before that for a short time he was even affiliated with the American conservative.
    I certainly knew of him before 2016, and I suppose many other commenters here did as well.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @German_reader

    I also knew of him, though I somehow never read much of his writings. I was certainly aware of the cancelled conference in real time in October 2014.

    , @Anonymous
    @German_reader

    OK but Takimag and American Conservative are still fringe publications (Takimag especially so); a person could be a regular contributor to both outlets and still not have name recognition amongst 99.9% of Americans (in fact, this is probably true of most contributors to those outlets).

    Dmitry's point is well taken: when the US media wants to demonize some ideology or belief, they invariably seek out the fringiest, most off-the-wall "representative" they can find, and publicize him as though he were the Pope handing out infallible papal bulls to his millions of followers. Richard Spencer has nothing to do with Trump; most (essentially all) Trump supporters haven't heard of Richard Spencer, they don't know what his beliefs are and even if they did they wouldn't care. Spencer got publicized because of the way he looks and the rhetoric he uses, both of which immediately discredit him to most normal people; you can't publicize Jared Taylor, for example, because he's too normal looking, and his demeanor is too normal, and that might cause people to actually listen to what he has to say.

    Replies: @Dmitry, @DFH

  652. @German_reader
    @Dmitry


    Before 2015, he seems almost not to have existed in the public space
     
    No, he was editor at Takimag well before that (where some really weird white nationalist, sort of neopagan stuff appeared under him, it was quite distinctive and different from what had appeared before at Takimag, clearly in line with his later statements). And before that for a short time he was even affiliated with the American conservative.
    I certainly knew of him before 2016, and I suppose many other commenters here did as well.

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @Anonymous

    I also knew of him, though I somehow never read much of his writings. I was certainly aware of the cancelled conference in real time in October 2014.

  653. German_reader says:
    @Dmitry
    For any operant conditioning, museums of genocide should be as ugly designed as possible.

    But even more more ugly, should be museums about war and military history. As long as it does not offend sensitivity of still living veterans, the museums should be full of skeletons, photos of one armed cripples, and the use scents in the museum that smells of dead bodies, which are the harvest of any war.

    From the 19th century, especially, there was a problem of beautiful commemorations to war - think about the glamour of Napoleon's tomb in Paris, and compare it to what must of have been the reality of a battlefield, after an unnecessary war by Napoleon.

    On the other hand, museums of science, engineering and education, should be the most beautiful places in any city, with good looking staff, harmonized buildings, and multicoloured glass.

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @German_reader

    the museums should be full of skeletons, photos of one armed cripples, and the use scents in the museum that smells of dead bodies, which are the harvest of any war.

    I don’t think that “show people blood and guts and they’ll be against war” approach really works…anti-war films which rely on it are never very effective imo.
    It also ignores political questions. There are a lot of horrible photographs from the American civil war, of the dead rotting on the battlefields, often with their shirts torn off, because they had checked if they had been shot in the stomach (which was a death sentence then); also many of horribly mutilated veterans. Yet many Americans would still say it was worth it to preserve the Union and to abolish slavery.
    There are worse things than war after all, so it’s always a political calculation.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @German_reader

    Realistic war movies are often very popular among professional soldiers or officer candidates, based on the few of them I know.

    Replies: @German_reader, @songbird, @Epigon

    , @songbird
    @German_reader

    Many of those photos of the Civil War were actually staged. They arranged the bodies for the best effect. It's easy to tell because faces can be recognized as being in different shots. One guy, Alexander Gardner, is especially known for it, but there were others.

    Replies: @German_reader

  654. The worst atrocity of the Second World War was Pearl Harbor.

    America should force other countries to construct Pearl Harbor memorials and incorporate Pearl Harbor Studies into their educational curricula.

    Mitsubishi should also be sued into bankruptcy for constructing the Zero fighter.

    Trafalgar Square in Britain should be rechristened as Pearl Harbor Square, and Nelson’s Column must be rededicated as the USS Arizona Remembrance Column.

    Never forget.

    • LOL: DFH
    • Replies: @German_reader
    @Thorfinnsson


    and Nelson’s Column must be rededicated as the USS Arizona Remembrance Column.
     
    I thought it had already been rededicated to Nelson Mandela, which is certainly more in line with Britain's state today.

    Is the Pacific war really remembered all that much in the US anymore? I don't get the impression it plays much of a role in WW2 remembrance, apart from the endless discussions about the atomic bombings.

    Replies: @songbird

  655. German_reader says:
    @Thorfinnsson
    The worst atrocity of the Second World War was Pearl Harbor.

    America should force other countries to construct Pearl Harbor memorials and incorporate Pearl Harbor Studies into their educational curricula.

    Mitsubishi should also be sued into bankruptcy for constructing the Zero fighter.

    Trafalgar Square in Britain should be rechristened as Pearl Harbor Square, and Nelson's Column must be rededicated as the USS Arizona Remembrance Column.

    Never forget.

    Replies: @German_reader

    and Nelson’s Column must be rededicated as the USS Arizona Remembrance Column.

    I thought it had already been rededicated to Nelson Mandela, which is certainly more in line with Britain’s state today.

    Is the Pacific war really remembered all that much in the US anymore? I don’t get the impression it plays much of a role in WW2 remembrance, apart from the endless discussions about the atomic bombings.

    • Replies: @songbird
    @German_reader

    I want to go back to the time when they made souvenirs from the burnt bodies of kamikaze pilots, and one could say "Jap" without censure. Odd how it has become a pejorative - highlights how transformed the US has become.

    You joked about the new black monuments in Europe. I think the way they are talked about is so disturbing: it is always implied they are the first of many. It really highlights the analogy to flags - its about turf and who rules it.

    The absolute worst one must be in Copenhagen. "I am Queen Mary." It is a 23 foot tall statue of negress sitting on one of those peacock thrones. Peacock thrones were originally popularized by being on a poster of some black militant in the US. Nothing to do with Africa, but the throne was put in the Black Panther movie (or at least on the poster - I have not seen the movie.). In one hand she has a killing implement which she probably would have used to kill white women and children, if successful. In another a torch for burning stuff down. Fortunately, the rebellion was crushed and its leaders put in prison.

    It happened in the Virgin Islands, long after slavery ended. The choice of rhetoric highlights the beautiful houses of Copenhagen built supposedly from the profit of slaves. It's about Africans kicking the door into Europe down and pushing their way in, nothing else. The only way it could be worse if the torch was a real flame, from which future rioting blacks in Copenhagen could light their torches.

    Replies: @German_reader, @DFH

  656. @German_reader
    @Dmitry


    the museums should be full of skeletons, photos of one armed cripples, and the use scents in the museum that smells of dead bodies, which are the harvest of any war.
     
    I don't think that "show people blood and guts and they'll be against war" approach really works...anti-war films which rely on it are never very effective imo.
    It also ignores political questions. There are a lot of horrible photographs from the American civil war, of the dead rotting on the battlefields, often with their shirts torn off, because they had checked if they had been shot in the stomach (which was a death sentence then); also many of horribly mutilated veterans. Yet many Americans would still say it was worth it to preserve the Union and to abolish slavery.
    There are worse things than war after all, so it's always a political calculation.

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @songbird

    Realistic war movies are often very popular among professional soldiers or officer candidates, based on the few of them I know.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @reiner Tor


    Realistic war movies
     
    Which ones?
    I suppose Full metal jacket could be popular...but that isn't even meant to be an anti-war movie as far as I can tell.

    Replies: @reiner Tor

    , @songbird
    @reiner Tor

    I know a lot of people in the military always like to point out the unrealistic shots. For instance, quite often the men are too close together, in order to make the shot more a visual experience, but this unrealistic because it would have been too easy to ambush them. And they would have been trained to know that. Thus, most realistic war movies tend to be unrealistic.

    Replies: @songbird, @reiner Tor

    , @Epigon
    @reiner Tor

    Which movies would be those realistic war movies ?

    Replies: @reiner Tor

  657. German_reader says:
    @reiner Tor
    @German_reader

    Realistic war movies are often very popular among professional soldiers or officer candidates, based on the few of them I know.

    Replies: @German_reader, @songbird, @Epigon

    Realistic war movies

    Which ones?
    I suppose Full metal jacket could be popular…but that isn’t even meant to be an anti-war movie as far as I can tell.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @German_reader

    I’m not a movie aficionado, so I’ll only name a few I have seen.

    The Thin Red Line
    Jarhead (it even shows how a US marine didn’t even get to shoot his rifle in Kuwait in 1991)
    Black Hawk Down
    Das Boot

    I don’t know if any of them were really realistic, nor if they were intended as anti-war. But they certainly did show war to be horrible. Yet... I can relate to people who somehow are still attracted to war. In part precisely because of the horrors. War is the highest level of human effort, when a large organized human group tries to destroy another large organized human group with all its efforts. It’s not a coincidence that technology advances usually not because of Dmitry’s motivating science and technology museums, but because of war, when society puts in the collective effort. Even in peacetime during arms races.

    Replies: @German_reader

  658. @German_reader
    @Dmitry


    the museums should be full of skeletons, photos of one armed cripples, and the use scents in the museum that smells of dead bodies, which are the harvest of any war.
     
    I don't think that "show people blood and guts and they'll be against war" approach really works...anti-war films which rely on it are never very effective imo.
    It also ignores political questions. There are a lot of horrible photographs from the American civil war, of the dead rotting on the battlefields, often with their shirts torn off, because they had checked if they had been shot in the stomach (which was a death sentence then); also many of horribly mutilated veterans. Yet many Americans would still say it was worth it to preserve the Union and to abolish slavery.
    There are worse things than war after all, so it's always a political calculation.

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @songbird

    Many of those photos of the Civil War were actually staged. They arranged the bodies for the best effect. It’s easy to tell because faces can be recognized as being in different shots. One guy, Alexander Gardner, is especially known for it, but there were others.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @songbird


    Many of those photos of the Civil War were actually staged.
     
    You're right, I had read about that as well (iirc it was clearly demonstrated with some photos from the Petersburg trenches). But still, the part about stomach shots seems plausible to me, it certainly must have been a horrible way to die.
  659. German_reader says:
    @songbird
    @German_reader

    Many of those photos of the Civil War were actually staged. They arranged the bodies for the best effect. It's easy to tell because faces can be recognized as being in different shots. One guy, Alexander Gardner, is especially known for it, but there were others.

    Replies: @German_reader

    Many of those photos of the Civil War were actually staged.

    You’re right, I had read about that as well (iirc it was clearly demonstrated with some photos from the Petersburg trenches). But still, the part about stomach shots seems plausible to me, it certainly must have been a horrible way to die.

  660. @reiner Tor
    @German_reader

    Realistic war movies are often very popular among professional soldiers or officer candidates, based on the few of them I know.

    Replies: @German_reader, @songbird, @Epigon

    I know a lot of people in the military always like to point out the unrealistic shots. For instance, quite often the men are too close together, in order to make the shot more a visual experience, but this unrealistic because it would have been too easy to ambush them. And they would have been trained to know that. Thus, most realistic war movies tend to be unrealistic.

    • Replies: @songbird
    @songbird

    I laughed uproariously, when they tried to pass off Vin Diesel as an Italian-American in "Saving Private Ryan." Surely, he would have been driving supply trucks in the black regiment.

    , @reiner Tor
    @songbird

    Yes, and the movie Der Untergang (Downfall) compressed a ten minute phone conversation (when Hitler finds out that the Russians are already in the Berlin suburbs) into three sentences, and they moved the date ahead one day to Hitler’s birthday for artistic effect (in reality it was not until April 21, 1945, when the Soviet artillery started shelling the area of the Reich Chancellery, which according to Dmitry and Melanf was an ugly building). The Tiger tank in one of the scenes is... something, but not a Tiger for sure. But it’s still a realistic movie.

  661. @songbird
    @reiner Tor

    I know a lot of people in the military always like to point out the unrealistic shots. For instance, quite often the men are too close together, in order to make the shot more a visual experience, but this unrealistic because it would have been too easy to ambush them. And they would have been trained to know that. Thus, most realistic war movies tend to be unrealistic.

    Replies: @songbird, @reiner Tor

    I laughed uproariously, when they tried to pass off Vin Diesel as an Italian-American in “Saving Private Ryan.” Surely, he would have been driving supply trucks in the black regiment.

  662. @songbird
    @German_reader

    Holy cow: 70,000 by 2018! That's incredible!

    The most obviously pernicious monuments are those that are designed to have geographic spread. The Lynching Museum in Montgomery is a special case. It hosts monuments which are meant to shame 800 counties into accepting lynching monuments. The replicas are already built and on display. It is like something biological, giving birth to 800 eggs. Some have already been transplanted.

    What is really funny is that it hosts more than 800 jars from the sites where black lynchings took place. It really evokes Dracula shipping in his Transylvanian soil. I might add many were likely murderers and rapists, and there are no monuments to the many obviously innocent whites killed by crowds of blacks.

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @DFH

    Do they commemorate the lynchings of obvious criminals, paedophiles, rapists and murderers there?

    • Replies: @songbird
    @DFH

    Of course, forensics wasn't well-developed back then, so I don't feel comfortable saying "obvious." But I will go so far as to say there are at least a few "probables. " Or put another way, the best suspects at the time. It is a murky area. We have the concept of innocent until proven guilty, but it still seems in very poor taste to put up a monument in some of these cases.

    One case I remember was a black boy last seen playing with a white girl who was murdered. He had her bicycle (which I think was a recent gift) hidden at his house.

    I feel comfortable saying there are probably many more based on the many cases of "injustice" that liberals push. The Central Park Five. Some black GI in Europe during WW2 who tried to rape a woman who was only saved by the lock on her door. Mathew Shepard (who was not black but gay), and killed over drugs by gay blacks or something. And now there's Jussie Smollett.

    Replies: @DFH

  663. I listened to some new music. First, the big surprise: last year I bought a double CD compilation of Krzysztof Penderecki’s music with the title “A Portrait of Krzysztof Penderecki,” and a box set with all his symphonies and some other compositions. There was some overlap: the double CD contained his First Symphony and a couple other compositions (the Threnody for the Victims of Hiroshima, supposedly his most famous work, was on both). Now last year I listened to the double CD, and it contained atonal unlistenable music, so I pretty much gave up on the supposedly greatest living Polish composer. However, it turns out that the double CD contained only his early compositions. Later he turned to a post-Romantic, almost Brucknerian idiom. His symphonies after the Second are in that style, and I liked them all, especially the Second, Fourth and Seventh. So in my eyes he joined the ranks of the great Polish composers. Now I put Lutoslawski on the list of composers to check out.

    I have now listened to one of the pieces proposed by Dmitry (Vespers by Rachmaninoff), and it’s great. Thanks for the recommendation, Dmitry!

    I also listened to Miloslav Kabelac (his symphonies only, I only found his Seventh slightly subpar, but maybe over time I’ll come around to like it), also a great composer.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @reiner Tor


    I have now listened to one of the pieces proposed by Dmitry (Vespers by Rachmaninoff), and it’s great. Thanks for the recommendation, Dmitry!

     

    You're welcome.

    If you listen on CD, now I recommend listen to Rachmaninov's Vespers in live concert. (It's something which benefits a lot from live sound).
  664. @reiner Tor
    @German_reader

    Realistic war movies are often very popular among professional soldiers or officer candidates, based on the few of them I know.

    Replies: @German_reader, @songbird, @Epigon

    Which movies would be those realistic war movies ?

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @Epigon

    I meant movies which show people gutted and dying gruesome deaths, as Dmitry proposed.

  665. @German_reader
    @reiner Tor


    Realistic war movies
     
    Which ones?
    I suppose Full metal jacket could be popular...but that isn't even meant to be an anti-war movie as far as I can tell.

    Replies: @reiner Tor

    I’m not a movie aficionado, so I’ll only name a few I have seen.

    The Thin Red Line
    Jarhead (it even shows how a US marine didn’t even get to shoot his rifle in Kuwait in 1991)
    Black Hawk Down
    Das Boot

    I don’t know if any of them were really realistic, nor if they were intended as anti-war. But they certainly did show war to be horrible. Yet… I can relate to people who somehow are still attracted to war. In part precisely because of the horrors. War is the highest level of human effort, when a large organized human group tries to destroy another large organized human group with all its efforts. It’s not a coincidence that technology advances usually not because of Dmitry’s motivating science and technology museums, but because of war, when society puts in the collective effort. Even in peacetime during arms races.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @reiner Tor


    did show war to be horrible
     
    I've only seen "Black Hawk Down" and "Das Boot", and tbh, war didn't seem that horrible to me in them.
    "Das Boot" seemed more like an adventure story to me, apart from the somewhat depressing ending it seemed more like an exciting experience than anything truly terrible.
    As for "Black Hawk Down"...a heroic last stand of mostly white Americans, gunning down hundreds of Somalis in the process, that's almost like an alt-right fantasy.
    Maybe movies are just inherently limited as a medium in their depiction of war.

    As for the attraction of war, sure, on some level I understand that as well. Not just the fantasies of manly comradeship in combat, but also more generally...the vision of a collective effort where everybody does his or her part for victory is very attractive to nationalists after all.
    I still wouldn't want to be in one though.

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @reiner Tor, @songbird

  666. @Epigon
    @reiner Tor

    Which movies would be those realistic war movies ?

    Replies: @reiner Tor

    I meant movies which show people gutted and dying gruesome deaths, as Dmitry proposed.

  667. @songbird
    @reiner Tor

    I know a lot of people in the military always like to point out the unrealistic shots. For instance, quite often the men are too close together, in order to make the shot more a visual experience, but this unrealistic because it would have been too easy to ambush them. And they would have been trained to know that. Thus, most realistic war movies tend to be unrealistic.

    Replies: @songbird, @reiner Tor

    Yes, and the movie Der Untergang (Downfall) compressed a ten minute phone conversation (when Hitler finds out that the Russians are already in the Berlin suburbs) into three sentences, and they moved the date ahead one day to Hitler’s birthday for artistic effect (in reality it was not until April 21, 1945, when the Soviet artillery started shelling the area of the Reich Chancellery, which according to Dmitry and Melanf was an ugly building). The Tiger tank in one of the scenes is… something, but not a Tiger for sure. But it’s still a realistic movie.

  668. German_reader says:
    @reiner Tor
    @German_reader

    I’m not a movie aficionado, so I’ll only name a few I have seen.

    The Thin Red Line
    Jarhead (it even shows how a US marine didn’t even get to shoot his rifle in Kuwait in 1991)
    Black Hawk Down
    Das Boot

    I don’t know if any of them were really realistic, nor if they were intended as anti-war. But they certainly did show war to be horrible. Yet... I can relate to people who somehow are still attracted to war. In part precisely because of the horrors. War is the highest level of human effort, when a large organized human group tries to destroy another large organized human group with all its efforts. It’s not a coincidence that technology advances usually not because of Dmitry’s motivating science and technology museums, but because of war, when society puts in the collective effort. Even in peacetime during arms races.

    Replies: @German_reader

    did show war to be horrible

    I’ve only seen “Black Hawk Down” and “Das Boot”, and tbh, war didn’t seem that horrible to me in them.
    “Das Boot” seemed more like an adventure story to me, apart from the somewhat depressing ending it seemed more like an exciting experience than anything truly terrible.
    As for “Black Hawk Down”…a heroic last stand of mostly white Americans, gunning down hundreds of Somalis in the process, that’s almost like an alt-right fantasy.
    Maybe movies are just inherently limited as a medium in their depiction of war.

    As for the attraction of war, sure, on some level I understand that as well. Not just the fantasies of manly comradeship in combat, but also more generally…the vision of a collective effort where everybody does his or her part for victory is very attractive to nationalists after all.
    I still wouldn’t want to be in one though.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @German_reader

    Another example is the Russian movie Chistilishche (Purgatory), parts of which were shown during a lecture of a military historian in Hungary. Among the audience there were active duty military personnel, and I remember all present liked it. It’s pretty horroristic, and there is little positive about it. Soldiers are sent in without adequate equipment, training, motivation, to die in a cold and alien place fighting savages.

    , @reiner Tor
    @German_reader


    I still wouldn’t want to be in one though.
     
    No sane person over the age of thirty would want to. I have only read about war, and heard what old people (and some others who were in contemporary conflicts, though they were less talkative than the old ones) told me, but it’s pretty obvious that you don’t want it for anyone you love.
    , @songbird
    @German_reader

    It's funny: I have heard Africans also enjoy watching "Black Hawk Down" because blacks kill whites. You wouldn't think they would enjoy it because they are getting worse, but they do.

    As to those black monuments in Europe, I wish someone would build a drone that would drop thermite on them, or otherwise safely melt them into blobs. They are meant as a signal and should be turned into another.

  669. @German_reader
    @Thorfinnsson


    and Nelson’s Column must be rededicated as the USS Arizona Remembrance Column.
     
    I thought it had already been rededicated to Nelson Mandela, which is certainly more in line with Britain's state today.

    Is the Pacific war really remembered all that much in the US anymore? I don't get the impression it plays much of a role in WW2 remembrance, apart from the endless discussions about the atomic bombings.

    Replies: @songbird

    I want to go back to the time when they made souvenirs from the burnt bodies of kamikaze pilots, and one could say “Jap” without censure. Odd how it has become a pejorative – highlights how transformed the US has become.

    You joked about the new black monuments in Europe. I think the way they are talked about is so disturbing: it is always implied they are the first of many. It really highlights the analogy to flags – its about turf and who rules it.

    The absolute worst one must be in Copenhagen. “I am Queen Mary.” It is a 23 foot tall statue of negress sitting on one of those peacock thrones. Peacock thrones were originally popularized by being on a poster of some black militant in the US. Nothing to do with Africa, but the throne was put in the Black Panther movie (or at least on the poster – I have not seen the movie.). In one hand she has a killing implement which she probably would have used to kill white women and children, if successful. In another a torch for burning stuff down. Fortunately, the rebellion was crushed and its leaders put in prison.

    It happened in the Virgin Islands, long after slavery ended. The choice of rhetoric highlights the beautiful houses of Copenhagen built supposedly from the profit of slaves. It’s about Africans kicking the door into Europe down and pushing their way in, nothing else. The only way it could be worse if the torch was a real flame, from which future rioting blacks in Copenhagen could light their torches.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @songbird


    You joked about the new black monuments in Europe.
     
    No, I didn't joke about it. I actually think it's ominous. It's a statement of power, like just all those attempts to write black Africans as important characters into ancient and medieval European history. It's meant as preparation for a Europe with a very substantial African-descended population.

    Replies: @Guy Laliberté

    , @DFH
    @songbird

    That sounds like just what the new EU committee on 'Afrophobia' will be doing

    Replies: @reiner Tor

  670. German_reader says:
    @songbird
    @German_reader

    I want to go back to the time when they made souvenirs from the burnt bodies of kamikaze pilots, and one could say "Jap" without censure. Odd how it has become a pejorative - highlights how transformed the US has become.

    You joked about the new black monuments in Europe. I think the way they are talked about is so disturbing: it is always implied they are the first of many. It really highlights the analogy to flags - its about turf and who rules it.

    The absolute worst one must be in Copenhagen. "I am Queen Mary." It is a 23 foot tall statue of negress sitting on one of those peacock thrones. Peacock thrones were originally popularized by being on a poster of some black militant in the US. Nothing to do with Africa, but the throne was put in the Black Panther movie (or at least on the poster - I have not seen the movie.). In one hand she has a killing implement which she probably would have used to kill white women and children, if successful. In another a torch for burning stuff down. Fortunately, the rebellion was crushed and its leaders put in prison.

    It happened in the Virgin Islands, long after slavery ended. The choice of rhetoric highlights the beautiful houses of Copenhagen built supposedly from the profit of slaves. It's about Africans kicking the door into Europe down and pushing their way in, nothing else. The only way it could be worse if the torch was a real flame, from which future rioting blacks in Copenhagen could light their torches.

    Replies: @German_reader, @DFH

    You joked about the new black monuments in Europe.

    No, I didn’t joke about it. I actually think it’s ominous. It’s a statement of power, like just all those attempts to write black Africans as important characters into ancient and medieval European history. It’s meant as preparation for a Europe with a very substantial African-descended population.

    • Replies: @Guy Laliberté
    @German_reader

    Rammstein did some genius take on this in recent video.

  671. @German_reader
    @reiner Tor


    did show war to be horrible
     
    I've only seen "Black Hawk Down" and "Das Boot", and tbh, war didn't seem that horrible to me in them.
    "Das Boot" seemed more like an adventure story to me, apart from the somewhat depressing ending it seemed more like an exciting experience than anything truly terrible.
    As for "Black Hawk Down"...a heroic last stand of mostly white Americans, gunning down hundreds of Somalis in the process, that's almost like an alt-right fantasy.
    Maybe movies are just inherently limited as a medium in their depiction of war.

    As for the attraction of war, sure, on some level I understand that as well. Not just the fantasies of manly comradeship in combat, but also more generally...the vision of a collective effort where everybody does his or her part for victory is very attractive to nationalists after all.
    I still wouldn't want to be in one though.

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @reiner Tor, @songbird

    Another example is the Russian movie Chistilishche (Purgatory), parts of which were shown during a lecture of a military historian in Hungary. Among the audience there were active duty military personnel, and I remember all present liked it. It’s pretty horroristic, and there is little positive about it. Soldiers are sent in without adequate equipment, training, motivation, to die in a cold and alien place fighting savages.

  672. @German_reader
    @reiner Tor


    did show war to be horrible
     
    I've only seen "Black Hawk Down" and "Das Boot", and tbh, war didn't seem that horrible to me in them.
    "Das Boot" seemed more like an adventure story to me, apart from the somewhat depressing ending it seemed more like an exciting experience than anything truly terrible.
    As for "Black Hawk Down"...a heroic last stand of mostly white Americans, gunning down hundreds of Somalis in the process, that's almost like an alt-right fantasy.
    Maybe movies are just inherently limited as a medium in their depiction of war.

    As for the attraction of war, sure, on some level I understand that as well. Not just the fantasies of manly comradeship in combat, but also more generally...the vision of a collective effort where everybody does his or her part for victory is very attractive to nationalists after all.
    I still wouldn't want to be in one though.

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @reiner Tor, @songbird

    I still wouldn’t want to be in one though.

    No sane person over the age of thirty would want to. I have only read about war, and heard what old people (and some others who were in contemporary conflicts, though they were less talkative than the old ones) told me, but it’s pretty obvious that you don’t want it for anyone you love.

  673. @reiner Tor
    @Dmitry


    even more more ugly, should be museums about war and military history
     
    Museums and monuments of wars should inspire future generations to fight for their countries. Motivation can only work inside your country. Therefore, if you build ugly museums, they will only discourage your own population from war. This is not very stable, because if other countries like China or the US will continue to glorify the military, they will have an advantage over us. This is actually happening now, with many European countries extremely weak with pacifistic populations.

    Replies: @Dmitry

    War museum, is not anti-war – it should simply be accurate and unpleasant.

    It should show people the most notable consequences of war.

    Even war museums which are based too much on people who survive the wars, are quite inaccurate. Survivors are the lucky selection of people, from those who were involved in war.

    Strongest result of war, are experiences like being shot in the stomach and bleeding painfully somewhere in the ground until you die. People who were most impacted by war and experienced the most significant consequences of a war, are generally not living at the end.

    Then we later hear from the lucky ones, who survived – as if you hear only testimonials about a casino, from people who won, or at least survived with their savings, and those who lost their fortune, have been eliminated from discussing it.

    Museums and monuments of wars should inspire future generations to fight for their countries.

    It can reflect on results of the war, which can sometimes be positive or important.

    Results of sacrifice in the Great Patriotic War – freedom for millions of people – are a lot more positive, than results of idiotic conflicts like Russo-Japanese War, Afghan War, Vietnam War, etc .
    So there is no generic answer to the question, of whether people should be “inspired to fight”.

    However, inspired to fight for your village or city, people do not need motivation – there is natural motivation.

    Inspired to fight to conquer some foreign territory, or for some abstract ideology – it is often better people are not too inspired.

    This is actually happening now, with many European countries extremely weak with pacifistic populations.

    When they could still remember more unpleasant aspects of war, citizens of European countries like UK were quite lucky their government was clever enough to avoid fighting in Vietnam (after France left).

    NATO managed to avoid (even what would have been mostly costless aerial) intervention in Syria, partly because of the public’s unpleasant memories of casualties in Iraq and Afghanistan.

    On the other hand, glorifying military, does not directly increase fighting ability. Mussolini’s Italy, was glorifying military more than America, before Second World War. Yet Mussolini’s army was ineffective in combat. Arab and Muslim countries usually glorify military, but they often lose wars. Organization and technology level of the society, is much more relevant to its abilities to fight.

    There is an issue of “military readiness” as a result of too much pacifism. However, with a couple of years preparation, a now pacifist society like Japan, would become more combat effective, than the complete Muslim world – despite the latter’s glorification of millitary.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @Dmitry


    However, with a couple of years preparation, a now pacifist society like Japan, would become more combat effective
     
    Japan has a fairly good navy and air force. Of course one doesn't know how effective they would be in combat, but they're certainly well-trained and well-equipped.
    Germany is a much better example for terminal pacifism.
    , @reiner Tor
    @Dmitry


    Mussolini’s Italy, was glorifying military more than America, before Second World War. Yet Mussolini’s army was ineffective in combat. Arab and Muslim countries usually glorify military, but they often lose wars. Organization and technology level of the society, is much more relevant to its abilities to fight.
     
    Both are relevant.
    , @DFH
    @Dmitry


    War museum, is not anti-war – it should simply be accurate and unpleasant.

    It should show people the most notable consequences of war.
     
    War museums are for looking at tanks, planes, rockets and Nazi memorabilia

    Replies: @LondonBob

  674. @German_reader
    @reiner Tor


    did show war to be horrible
     
    I've only seen "Black Hawk Down" and "Das Boot", and tbh, war didn't seem that horrible to me in them.
    "Das Boot" seemed more like an adventure story to me, apart from the somewhat depressing ending it seemed more like an exciting experience than anything truly terrible.
    As for "Black Hawk Down"...a heroic last stand of mostly white Americans, gunning down hundreds of Somalis in the process, that's almost like an alt-right fantasy.
    Maybe movies are just inherently limited as a medium in their depiction of war.

    As for the attraction of war, sure, on some level I understand that as well. Not just the fantasies of manly comradeship in combat, but also more generally...the vision of a collective effort where everybody does his or her part for victory is very attractive to nationalists after all.
    I still wouldn't want to be in one though.

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @reiner Tor, @songbird

    It’s funny: I have heard Africans also enjoy watching “Black Hawk Down” because blacks kill whites. You wouldn’t think they would enjoy it because they are getting worse, but they do.

    As to those black monuments in Europe, I wish someone would build a drone that would drop thermite on them, or otherwise safely melt them into blobs. They are meant as a signal and should be turned into another.

  675. German_reader says:
    @Dmitry
    @reiner Tor

    War museum, is not anti-war - it should simply be accurate and unpleasant.

    It should show people the most notable consequences of war.

    Even war museums which are based too much on people who survive the wars, are quite inaccurate. Survivors are the lucky selection of people, from those who were involved in war.

    Strongest result of war, are experiences like being shot in the stomach and bleeding painfully somewhere in the ground until you die. People who were most impacted by war and experienced the most significant consequences of a war, are generally not living at the end.

    Then we later hear from the lucky ones, who survived - as if you hear only testimonials about a casino, from people who won, or at least survived with their savings, and those who lost their fortune, have been eliminated from discussing it.


    Museums and monuments of wars should inspire future generations to fight for their countries.

     

    It can reflect on results of the war, which can sometimes be positive or important.

    Results of sacrifice in the Great Patriotic War - freedom for millions of people - are a lot more positive, than results of idiotic conflicts like Russo-Japanese War, Afghan War, Vietnam War, etc .
    So there is no generic answer to the question, of whether people should be "inspired to fight".

    However, inspired to fight for your village or city, people do not need motivation - there is natural motivation.

    Inspired to fight to conquer some foreign territory, or for some abstract ideology - it is often better people are not too inspired.


    This is actually happening now, with many European countries extremely weak with pacifistic populations.
     
    When they could still remember more unpleasant aspects of war, citizens of European countries like UK were quite lucky their government was clever enough to avoid fighting in Vietnam (after France left).

    NATO managed to avoid (even what would have been mostly costless aerial) intervention in Syria, partly because of the public's unpleasant memories of casualties in Iraq and Afghanistan.

    On the other hand, glorifying military, does not directly increase fighting ability. Mussolini's Italy, was glorifying military more than America, before Second World War. Yet Mussolini's army was ineffective in combat. Arab and Muslim countries usually glorify military, but they often lose wars. Organization and technology level of the society, is much more relevant to its abilities to fight.

    There is an issue of "military readiness" as a result of too much pacifism. However, with a couple of years preparation, a now pacifist society like Japan, would become more combat effective, than the complete Muslim world - despite the latter's glorification of millitary.

    Replies: @German_reader, @reiner Tor, @DFH

    However, with a couple of years preparation, a now pacifist society like Japan, would become more combat effective

    Japan has a fairly good navy and air force. Of course one doesn’t know how effective they would be in combat, but they’re certainly well-trained and well-equipped.
    Germany is a much better example for terminal pacifism.

  676. Anonymous[151] • Disclaimer says:
    @German_reader
    @Dmitry


    Before 2015, he seems almost not to have existed in the public space
     
    No, he was editor at Takimag well before that (where some really weird white nationalist, sort of neopagan stuff appeared under him, it was quite distinctive and different from what had appeared before at Takimag, clearly in line with his later statements). And before that for a short time he was even affiliated with the American conservative.
    I certainly knew of him before 2016, and I suppose many other commenters here did as well.

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @Anonymous

    OK but Takimag and American Conservative are still fringe publications (Takimag especially so); a person could be a regular contributor to both outlets and still not have name recognition amongst 99.9% of Americans (in fact, this is probably true of most contributors to those outlets).

    Dmitry’s point is well taken: when the US media wants to demonize some ideology or belief, they invariably seek out the fringiest, most off-the-wall “representative” they can find, and publicize him as though he were the Pope handing out infallible papal bulls to his millions of followers. Richard Spencer has nothing to do with Trump; most (essentially all) Trump supporters haven’t heard of Richard Spencer, they don’t know what his beliefs are and even if they did they wouldn’t care. Spencer got publicized because of the way he looks and the rhetoric he uses, both of which immediately discredit him to most normal people; you can’t publicize Jared Taylor, for example, because he’s too normal looking, and his demeanor is too normal, and that might cause people to actually listen to what he has to say.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @Anonymous

    Thanks.

    My point about Richard Spencer, is not that he is completely an invented hoax (I'm sure he existed before 2015, and perhaps even wrote his ideas in some esoteric website).

    But why when I search for his name, with the settings before 2015 - you find instead : Richard Spencer, a corporate lawyer; Richard Spencer, an economist;, etc?

    Richard Spencer, the American nationalist, was less relevant, according to the search engine, than the ordinary professionals - lawyers, economists - who are called "Richard Spencer".

    Suddenly, in 2016 (although there are some preparatory articles in 2015), the media created him (and internet search results reflect this).

    Media cast him and placed him on the stage for a simple reason, of course, which was to damage Trump by association in the 2016 President's election.

    American media simply saw Spencer can "play the character villain" (wearing a special haircut and sunglasses to play this character), and introducing him would be a clever and amusing way to lower the votes for Trump, and perhaps also generate some clickbait for themselves.

    Replies: @reiner Tor

    , @DFH
    @Anonymous

    I can think of tons of people worse than Spencer who I would promote if that was my goal. Spencer is normal-looking, articulate and doesn't flaunt bad-optics symbols or words

    Replies: @Dmitry

  677. @Dmitry
    @reiner Tor

    War museum, is not anti-war - it should simply be accurate and unpleasant.

    It should show people the most notable consequences of war.

    Even war museums which are based too much on people who survive the wars, are quite inaccurate. Survivors are the lucky selection of people, from those who were involved in war.

    Strongest result of war, are experiences like being shot in the stomach and bleeding painfully somewhere in the ground until you die. People who were most impacted by war and experienced the most significant consequences of a war, are generally not living at the end.

    Then we later hear from the lucky ones, who survived - as if you hear only testimonials about a casino, from people who won, or at least survived with their savings, and those who lost their fortune, have been eliminated from discussing it.


    Museums and monuments of wars should inspire future generations to fight for their countries.

     

    It can reflect on results of the war, which can sometimes be positive or important.

    Results of sacrifice in the Great Patriotic War - freedom for millions of people - are a lot more positive, than results of idiotic conflicts like Russo-Japanese War, Afghan War, Vietnam War, etc .
    So there is no generic answer to the question, of whether people should be "inspired to fight".

    However, inspired to fight for your village or city, people do not need motivation - there is natural motivation.

    Inspired to fight to conquer some foreign territory, or for some abstract ideology - it is often better people are not too inspired.


    This is actually happening now, with many European countries extremely weak with pacifistic populations.
     
    When they could still remember more unpleasant aspects of war, citizens of European countries like UK were quite lucky their government was clever enough to avoid fighting in Vietnam (after France left).

    NATO managed to avoid (even what would have been mostly costless aerial) intervention in Syria, partly because of the public's unpleasant memories of casualties in Iraq and Afghanistan.

    On the other hand, glorifying military, does not directly increase fighting ability. Mussolini's Italy, was glorifying military more than America, before Second World War. Yet Mussolini's army was ineffective in combat. Arab and Muslim countries usually glorify military, but they often lose wars. Organization and technology level of the society, is much more relevant to its abilities to fight.

    There is an issue of "military readiness" as a result of too much pacifism. However, with a couple of years preparation, a now pacifist society like Japan, would become more combat effective, than the complete Muslim world - despite the latter's glorification of millitary.

    Replies: @German_reader, @reiner Tor, @DFH

    Mussolini’s Italy, was glorifying military more than America, before Second World War. Yet Mussolini’s army was ineffective in combat. Arab and Muslim countries usually glorify military, but they often lose wars. Organization and technology level of the society, is much more relevant to its abilities to fight.

    Both are relevant.

  678. @melanf
    @Dmitry


    But it’s surprising your post – I would have guessed Swedish women would age more attractively than most countries
     
    Attractiveness thing subjective - for a lover of tall blondes Scandinavia (and the North-Western part of Russia) is just a Paradise. For a lover of petite brunettes is better to go to Spain.

    But I did not compare countries, my point was different: in any, absolutely any country in the world, beauties make up a relatively small percentage of girls. Those who (as a result of viewing photos on the Internet) think that all Swedish girls look like Ingrid Bergman/Anita Ekberg will be bitterly disappointed if they come to Sweden.

    This also applies to Russia/ Poland/ Japan/China any country in the world

    Replies: @Dmitry

    But I did not compare countries, my point was different: in any, absolutely any country in the world, beauties make up a relatively small percentage of girls. Those who (as a result of viewing photos on the Internet) think that all Swedish girls look like Ingrid Bergman/Anita Ekberg will be bitterly disappointed if they come to Sweden.

    Sure, but I was interested about your point about aging.

    I’m sure you’re right although I haven’t been in Sweden. So I was interested when you said women are aging especially badly. It’s not what you would expect from general conditions of life there.

    • Replies: @melanf
    @Dmitry


    So I was interested when you said women are aging (in Sweden) especially badly.
     
    I didn't say that. I just wrote that the Minister in the photo looks better than most Swedish women of this age. Nothing more.
  679. @Anonymous
    @German_reader

    OK but Takimag and American Conservative are still fringe publications (Takimag especially so); a person could be a regular contributor to both outlets and still not have name recognition amongst 99.9% of Americans (in fact, this is probably true of most contributors to those outlets).

    Dmitry's point is well taken: when the US media wants to demonize some ideology or belief, they invariably seek out the fringiest, most off-the-wall "representative" they can find, and publicize him as though he were the Pope handing out infallible papal bulls to his millions of followers. Richard Spencer has nothing to do with Trump; most (essentially all) Trump supporters haven't heard of Richard Spencer, they don't know what his beliefs are and even if they did they wouldn't care. Spencer got publicized because of the way he looks and the rhetoric he uses, both of which immediately discredit him to most normal people; you can't publicize Jared Taylor, for example, because he's too normal looking, and his demeanor is too normal, and that might cause people to actually listen to what he has to say.

    Replies: @Dmitry, @DFH

    Thanks.

    My point about Richard Spencer, is not that he is completely an invented hoax (I’m sure he existed before 2015, and perhaps even wrote his ideas in some esoteric website).

    But why when I search for his name, with the settings before 2015 – you find instead : Richard Spencer, a corporate lawyer; Richard Spencer, an economist;, etc?

    Richard Spencer, the American nationalist, was less relevant, according to the search engine, than the ordinary professionals – lawyers, economists – who are called “Richard Spencer”.

    Suddenly, in 2016 (although there are some preparatory articles in 2015), the media created him (and internet search results reflect this).

    Media cast him and placed him on the stage for a simple reason, of course, which was to damage Trump by association in the 2016 President’s election.

    American media simply saw Spencer can “play the character villain” (wearing a special haircut and sunglasses to play this character), and introducing him would be a clever and amusing way to lower the votes for Trump, and perhaps also generate some clickbait for themselves.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @Dmitry

    In Hungary he became the center of a mainstream controversy in October 2014. Though they mostly just wrote about the conference, his person was not so important anyway. And of course it was only used to smear Orbán for letting it happen (which was then changed to Orbán banning a conference like a dictator for some journalists), though it was a short-lived issue, only maybe a couple of weeks.

    Replies: @reiner Tor

  680. @DFH
    @songbird

    Do they commemorate the lynchings of obvious criminals, paedophiles, rapists and murderers there?

    Replies: @songbird

    Of course, forensics wasn’t well-developed back then, so I don’t feel comfortable saying “obvious.” But I will go so far as to say there are at least a few “probables. ” Or put another way, the best suspects at the time. It is a murky area. We have the concept of innocent until proven guilty, but it still seems in very poor taste to put up a monument in some of these cases.

    One case I remember was a black boy last seen playing with a white girl who was murdered. He had her bicycle (which I think was a recent gift) hidden at his house.

    I feel comfortable saying there are probably many more based on the many cases of “injustice” that liberals push. The Central Park Five. Some black GI in Europe during WW2 who tried to rape a woman who was only saved by the lock on her door. Mathew Shepard (who was not black but gay), and killed over drugs by gay blacks or something. And now there’s Jussie Smollett.

    • Replies: @DFH
    @songbird


    I feel comfortable saying there are probably many more based on the many cases of “injustice” that liberals push. The Central Park Five. Some black GI in Europe during WW2 who tried to rape a woman who was only saved by the lock on her door. Mathew Shepard (who was not black but gay), and killed over drugs by gay blacks or something. And now there’s Jussie Smollett.
     
    Or Leo Frank
  681. @Dmitry
    @melanf


    But I did not compare countries, my point was different: in any, absolutely any country in the world, beauties make up a relatively small percentage of girls. Those who (as a result of viewing photos on the Internet) think that all Swedish girls look like Ingrid Bergman/Anita Ekberg will be bitterly disappointed if they come to Sweden.
     
    Sure, but I was interested about your point about aging.

    I'm sure you're right although I haven't been in Sweden. So I was interested when you said women are aging especially badly. It's not what you would expect from general conditions of life there.

    Replies: @melanf

    So I was interested when you said women are aging (in Sweden) especially badly.

    I didn’t say that. I just wrote that the Minister in the photo looks better than most Swedish women of this age. Nothing more.

  682. @reiner Tor
    I listened to some new music. First, the big surprise: last year I bought a double CD compilation of Krzysztof Penderecki’s music with the title “A Portrait of Krzysztof Penderecki,” and a box set with all his symphonies and some other compositions. There was some overlap: the double CD contained his First Symphony and a couple other compositions (the Threnody for the Victims of Hiroshima, supposedly his most famous work, was on both). Now last year I listened to the double CD, and it contained atonal unlistenable music, so I pretty much gave up on the supposedly greatest living Polish composer. However, it turns out that the double CD contained only his early compositions. Later he turned to a post-Romantic, almost Brucknerian idiom. His symphonies after the Second are in that style, and I liked them all, especially the Second, Fourth and Seventh. So in my eyes he joined the ranks of the great Polish composers. Now I put Lutoslawski on the list of composers to check out.

    I have now listened to one of the pieces proposed by Dmitry (Vespers by Rachmaninoff), and it’s great. Thanks for the recommendation, Dmitry!

    I also listened to Miloslav Kabelac (his symphonies only, I only found his Seventh slightly subpar, but maybe over time I’ll come around to like it), also a great composer.

    Replies: @Dmitry

    I have now listened to one of the pieces proposed by Dmitry (Vespers by Rachmaninoff), and it’s great. Thanks for the recommendation, Dmitry!

    You’re welcome.

    If you listen on CD, now I recommend listen to Rachmaninov’s Vespers in live concert. (It’s something which benefits a lot from live sound).

  683. @Dmitry
    @Anonymous

    Thanks.

    My point about Richard Spencer, is not that he is completely an invented hoax (I'm sure he existed before 2015, and perhaps even wrote his ideas in some esoteric website).

    But why when I search for his name, with the settings before 2015 - you find instead : Richard Spencer, a corporate lawyer; Richard Spencer, an economist;, etc?

    Richard Spencer, the American nationalist, was less relevant, according to the search engine, than the ordinary professionals - lawyers, economists - who are called "Richard Spencer".

    Suddenly, in 2016 (although there are some preparatory articles in 2015), the media created him (and internet search results reflect this).

    Media cast him and placed him on the stage for a simple reason, of course, which was to damage Trump by association in the 2016 President's election.

    American media simply saw Spencer can "play the character villain" (wearing a special haircut and sunglasses to play this character), and introducing him would be a clever and amusing way to lower the votes for Trump, and perhaps also generate some clickbait for themselves.

    Replies: @reiner Tor

    In Hungary he became the center of a mainstream controversy in October 2014. Though they mostly just wrote about the conference, his person was not so important anyway. And of course it was only used to smear Orbán for letting it happen (which was then changed to Orbán banning a conference like a dictator for some journalists), though it was a short-lived issue, only maybe a couple of weeks.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @reiner Tor

    Karlin wrote about it a couple years ago, I think it’s a good blog post:

    https://www.unz.com/akarlin/why-hungary-ethnically-cleansed-richard-spencer/

  684. @songbird
    @German_reader

    I want to go back to the time when they made souvenirs from the burnt bodies of kamikaze pilots, and one could say "Jap" without censure. Odd how it has become a pejorative - highlights how transformed the US has become.

    You joked about the new black monuments in Europe. I think the way they are talked about is so disturbing: it is always implied they are the first of many. It really highlights the analogy to flags - its about turf and who rules it.

    The absolute worst one must be in Copenhagen. "I am Queen Mary." It is a 23 foot tall statue of negress sitting on one of those peacock thrones. Peacock thrones were originally popularized by being on a poster of some black militant in the US. Nothing to do with Africa, but the throne was put in the Black Panther movie (or at least on the poster - I have not seen the movie.). In one hand she has a killing implement which she probably would have used to kill white women and children, if successful. In another a torch for burning stuff down. Fortunately, the rebellion was crushed and its leaders put in prison.

    It happened in the Virgin Islands, long after slavery ended. The choice of rhetoric highlights the beautiful houses of Copenhagen built supposedly from the profit of slaves. It's about Africans kicking the door into Europe down and pushing their way in, nothing else. The only way it could be worse if the torch was a real flame, from which future rioting blacks in Copenhagen could light their torches.

    Replies: @German_reader, @DFH

    That sounds like just what the new EU committee on ‘Afrophobia’ will be doing

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @DFH

    One lesson of the holocaust is the creation of a permanent bureaucracy for dealing with a problem will make the system constantly more radical. The Nazis mandated the appointment of a Jew specialist in each large organization. They kept producing ever more elaborate regulations, prohibiting Jews from owning pure-bread dogs or bicycles, while the number of Jews (and so the size of the supposed problem) was getting smaller.

    The ubiquitous diversity officers and the growing diversity bureaucracy will keep pushing for ever more extreme measures until the system is abolished. The vast Jewish lobby groups and holocaust memorial bureaucracies (not all of them Jewish) will keep pushing holocaust remembrance to ever more absurd heights.

    This also points to the impossibility of a reasonable compromise.

    Replies: @German_reader

  685. @Dmitry
    @reiner Tor

    War museum, is not anti-war - it should simply be accurate and unpleasant.

    It should show people the most notable consequences of war.

    Even war museums which are based too much on people who survive the wars, are quite inaccurate. Survivors are the lucky selection of people, from those who were involved in war.

    Strongest result of war, are experiences like being shot in the stomach and bleeding painfully somewhere in the ground until you die. People who were most impacted by war and experienced the most significant consequences of a war, are generally not living at the end.

    Then we later hear from the lucky ones, who survived - as if you hear only testimonials about a casino, from people who won, or at least survived with their savings, and those who lost their fortune, have been eliminated from discussing it.


    Museums and monuments of wars should inspire future generations to fight for their countries.

     

    It can reflect on results of the war, which can sometimes be positive or important.

    Results of sacrifice in the Great Patriotic War - freedom for millions of people - are a lot more positive, than results of idiotic conflicts like Russo-Japanese War, Afghan War, Vietnam War, etc .
    So there is no generic answer to the question, of whether people should be "inspired to fight".

    However, inspired to fight for your village or city, people do not need motivation - there is natural motivation.

    Inspired to fight to conquer some foreign territory, or for some abstract ideology - it is often better people are not too inspired.


    This is actually happening now, with many European countries extremely weak with pacifistic populations.
     
    When they could still remember more unpleasant aspects of war, citizens of European countries like UK were quite lucky their government was clever enough to avoid fighting in Vietnam (after France left).

    NATO managed to avoid (even what would have been mostly costless aerial) intervention in Syria, partly because of the public's unpleasant memories of casualties in Iraq and Afghanistan.

    On the other hand, glorifying military, does not directly increase fighting ability. Mussolini's Italy, was glorifying military more than America, before Second World War. Yet Mussolini's army was ineffective in combat. Arab and Muslim countries usually glorify military, but they often lose wars. Organization and technology level of the society, is much more relevant to its abilities to fight.

    There is an issue of "military readiness" as a result of too much pacifism. However, with a couple of years preparation, a now pacifist society like Japan, would become more combat effective, than the complete Muslim world - despite the latter's glorification of millitary.

    Replies: @German_reader, @reiner Tor, @DFH

    War museum, is not anti-war – it should simply be accurate and unpleasant.

    It should show people the most notable consequences of war.

    War museums are for looking at tanks, planes, rockets and Nazi memorabilia

    • Replies: @LondonBob
    @DFH

    Something the Imperial War Museum has forgotten. Much preferred the Central Armed Forces Museum in Moscow.

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson

  686. @Anonymous
    @German_reader

    OK but Takimag and American Conservative are still fringe publications (Takimag especially so); a person could be a regular contributor to both outlets and still not have name recognition amongst 99.9% of Americans (in fact, this is probably true of most contributors to those outlets).

    Dmitry's point is well taken: when the US media wants to demonize some ideology or belief, they invariably seek out the fringiest, most off-the-wall "representative" they can find, and publicize him as though he were the Pope handing out infallible papal bulls to his millions of followers. Richard Spencer has nothing to do with Trump; most (essentially all) Trump supporters haven't heard of Richard Spencer, they don't know what his beliefs are and even if they did they wouldn't care. Spencer got publicized because of the way he looks and the rhetoric he uses, both of which immediately discredit him to most normal people; you can't publicize Jared Taylor, for example, because he's too normal looking, and his demeanor is too normal, and that might cause people to actually listen to what he has to say.

    Replies: @Dmitry, @DFH

    I can think of tons of people worse than Spencer who I would promote if that was my goal. Spencer is normal-looking, articulate and doesn’t flaunt bad-optics symbols or words

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @DFH

    Goal was to attack Trump, not Spencer (Spencer himself is of no political significance and his ideas were only useful to 2016 President's election insofar as they could be used to damage political opponents by association with them).

    Spencer was a non-famous and non-important person, with no influence and no job, whose internet search ranking was below people called "Richard Spencer" who had real jobs, like a corporate lawyer and an economist.

    The media created Richard Spencer as a famous and significant villain in 2016 (and he intentionally played this character for they wanted, in the way he clothes himself, cuts his hair, etc), because he is a perfect, simple propaganda weapon they can associate with Trump, and therefore lose votes for Trump.

    Actually existing, Richard Spencer seems more a marketing troll, than any "American nationalist leader". He has children with a caucasian SJW woman , so his real life is less racist than of any, average normal (even the most liberal) people who almost all marry women from their own nationality. However, he looks like a villain from a film.

    Replies: @Mr. XYZ

  687. DFH says:
    @songbird
    @DFH

    Of course, forensics wasn't well-developed back then, so I don't feel comfortable saying "obvious." But I will go so far as to say there are at least a few "probables. " Or put another way, the best suspects at the time. It is a murky area. We have the concept of innocent until proven guilty, but it still seems in very poor taste to put up a monument in some of these cases.

    One case I remember was a black boy last seen playing with a white girl who was murdered. He had her bicycle (which I think was a recent gift) hidden at his house.

    I feel comfortable saying there are probably many more based on the many cases of "injustice" that liberals push. The Central Park Five. Some black GI in Europe during WW2 who tried to rape a woman who was only saved by the lock on her door. Mathew Shepard (who was not black but gay), and killed over drugs by gay blacks or something. And now there's Jussie Smollett.

    Replies: @DFH

    I feel comfortable saying there are probably many more based on the many cases of “injustice” that liberals push. The Central Park Five. Some black GI in Europe during WW2 who tried to rape a woman who was only saved by the lock on her door. Mathew Shepard (who was not black but gay), and killed over drugs by gay blacks or something. And now there’s Jussie Smollett.

    Or Leo Frank

  688. DFH says:

    Another thing related to the increasing Africanisation of Europe is how prominent black culture is, especially black American culture. For instance, I saw last year Black Klansman, some film about a black coldcaller with a white voice and an openly black nationalist film for teengares called ‘the Hate U Give’ prominently promoted. A cinema near me has a huge advert outside with only blacks in for a comedy made in Britain and (I assume) aimed at blacks.

  689. @DFH
    @songbird

    That sounds like just what the new EU committee on 'Afrophobia' will be doing

    Replies: @reiner Tor

    One lesson of the holocaust is the creation of a permanent bureaucracy for dealing with a problem will make the system constantly more radical. The Nazis mandated the appointment of a Jew specialist in each large organization. They kept producing ever more elaborate regulations, prohibiting Jews from owning pure-bread dogs or bicycles, while the number of Jews (and so the size of the supposed problem) was getting smaller.

    The ubiquitous diversity officers and the growing diversity bureaucracy will keep pushing for ever more extreme measures until the system is abolished. The vast Jewish lobby groups and holocaust memorial bureaucracies (not all of them Jewish) will keep pushing holocaust remembrance to ever more absurd heights.

    This also points to the impossibility of a reasonable compromise.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @reiner Tor


    This also points to the impossibility of a reasonable compromise.
     
    I agree. It's only ever more repression, more censorship, more immigration, more multiculturalism.
    It's clear that the dominant part of the elites in Western countries is intent on continuing their utopian project. And a non-trivial part of the public supports it as well.
    The question is how those of us who are opposed to it should react. Or whether we should even bother to act at all anymore. Maybe there is nothing left but to observe and wait for the inevitable disaster.
  690. @reiner Tor
    @Dmitry

    In Hungary he became the center of a mainstream controversy in October 2014. Though they mostly just wrote about the conference, his person was not so important anyway. And of course it was only used to smear Orbán for letting it happen (which was then changed to Orbán banning a conference like a dictator for some journalists), though it was a short-lived issue, only maybe a couple of weeks.

    Replies: @reiner Tor

    Karlin wrote about it a couple years ago, I think it’s a good blog post:

    https://www.unz.com/akarlin/why-hungary-ethnically-cleansed-richard-spencer/

  691. German_reader says:
    @reiner Tor
    @DFH

    One lesson of the holocaust is the creation of a permanent bureaucracy for dealing with a problem will make the system constantly more radical. The Nazis mandated the appointment of a Jew specialist in each large organization. They kept producing ever more elaborate regulations, prohibiting Jews from owning pure-bread dogs or bicycles, while the number of Jews (and so the size of the supposed problem) was getting smaller.

    The ubiquitous diversity officers and the growing diversity bureaucracy will keep pushing for ever more extreme measures until the system is abolished. The vast Jewish lobby groups and holocaust memorial bureaucracies (not all of them Jewish) will keep pushing holocaust remembrance to ever more absurd heights.

    This also points to the impossibility of a reasonable compromise.

    Replies: @German_reader

    This also points to the impossibility of a reasonable compromise.

    I agree. It’s only ever more repression, more censorship, more immigration, more multiculturalism.
    It’s clear that the dominant part of the elites in Western countries is intent on continuing their utopian project. And a non-trivial part of the public supports it as well.
    The question is how those of us who are opposed to it should react. Or whether we should even bother to act at all anymore. Maybe there is nothing left but to observe and wait for the inevitable disaster.

  692. This also points to the impossibility of a reasonable compromise

    This is interesting. I know there is nothing you can do about it and this is just the level of enthusiasm your own positions inspire you with. Its not under your control. I’m not blaming you.

    But this is why you lost.

    They find their values so inspiring that they will settle for nothing less than total victory.

    You hold your values so lightly that you’d be happy with a reasonable compromise.

    Its not under our control. Certain values are only capable of inspiring lukewarm enthusiasm. Other values can inspire total dedication.

    Its just interesting to objectively observe these social dynamics.

    • Replies: @Mitleser
    @AaronB

    This is not about values, but power.

    One side is more obsessed with it than the other.

    Replies: @AaronB

  693. @German_reader
    @songbird


    You joked about the new black monuments in Europe.
     
    No, I didn't joke about it. I actually think it's ominous. It's a statement of power, like just all those attempts to write black Africans as important characters into ancient and medieval European history. It's meant as preparation for a Europe with a very substantial African-descended population.

    Replies: @Guy Laliberté

    Rammstein did some genius take on this in recent video.

  694. When did Progressives become Pro-GROSS-ives?


  695. @AaronB

    This also points to the impossibility of a reasonable compromise
     
    This is interesting. I know there is nothing you can do about it and this is just the level of enthusiasm your own positions inspire you with. Its not under your control. I'm not blaming you.

    But this is why you lost.

    They find their values so inspiring that they will settle for nothing less than total victory.

    You hold your values so lightly that you'd be happy with a reasonable compromise.

    Its not under our control. Certain values are only capable of inspiring lukewarm enthusiasm. Other values can inspire total dedication.

    Its just interesting to objectively observe these social dynamics.

    Replies: @Mitleser

    This is not about values, but power.

    One side is more obsessed with it than the other.

    • Replies: @AaronB
    @Mitleser

    Values and power are intertwined. When you are really inspired by your values you want to see them completely triumph everywhere. You think that's destiny.

    During the West's imperial expansion phase, everyone believed Western values were superior and wanted to see them triumph over the whole world. Many Americans today still believe that.

    There is no standing still. There is either expansion or contraction.

    Reasonable compromise is defensive, not expansive. The side that adopts it will be extinguished by someone more vigorous.

    Humans have a feeling that we are on a path to something better and greater, that we have a glorious destiny. People who tap into this win out over people who don't have such a vision.

    For 500 years the West was convinced that its culture of Reason was improving mankind and moving along towards a glorious destiny. From the beginning, some thinkers had their misgivings, but the majority believed in it. World War One shattered this dream. In truth by the late 19th century serious doubts about the ability of Reason to create something better out of mankind were becoming widespread.

    But the source of 500 years of Western vitality was the belief that Reason will make something better out of mankind.

    When that faith was lost, the West collapsed.

    The Left today believes it is on the path to making something better out of mankind. The sentiment expressed in a "reasonable compromise" has no belief in bettering mankind. Therefore it has no chance of success.

    The West will become energetic and vital once again when it comes up with a new vision for bettering and improving our condition.

    The old vision of Pure Reason is dead - what will take its place?

    The Leftist vision, such as it is, is clearly failing. People are beginning to doubt that it is the path towards the betterment of our human condition.

    But in the meantime its the only game in town.

    My observations are merely objective reflections on reality. Take them or leave them as you like.

    Replies: @German_reader, @AaronB, @Dmitry

  696. Banned by Facebook. 

    Facebook works with Zionists to kill bushels of Muslims but then covers up the real crime by pretending to protect Muslims from Joke Memes.

    As Simple_Pseudonymic_Handle put it perfectly: “The first rule of waging religious war on Islam is you do not talk about waging the religious war on Islam.”

  697. @Mitleser
    @AaronB

    This is not about values, but power.

    One side is more obsessed with it than the other.

    Replies: @AaronB

    Values and power are intertwined. When you are really inspired by your values you want to see them completely triumph everywhere. You think that’s destiny.

    During the West’s imperial expansion phase, everyone believed Western values were superior and wanted to see them triumph over the whole world. Many Americans today still believe that.

    There is no standing still. There is either expansion or contraction.

    Reasonable compromise is defensive, not expansive. The side that adopts it will be extinguished by someone more vigorous.

    Humans have a feeling that we are on a path to something better and greater, that we have a glorious destiny. People who tap into this win out over people who don’t have such a vision.

    For 500 years the West was convinced that its culture of Reason was improving mankind and moving along towards a glorious destiny. From the beginning, some thinkers had their misgivings, but the majority believed in it. World War One shattered this dream. In truth by the late 19th century serious doubts about the ability of Reason to create something better out of mankind were becoming widespread.

    But the source of 500 years of Western vitality was the belief that Reason will make something better out of mankind.

    When that faith was lost, the West collapsed.

    The Left today believes it is on the path to making something better out of mankind. The sentiment expressed in a “reasonable compromise” has no belief in bettering mankind. Therefore it has no chance of success.

    The West will become energetic and vital once again when it comes up with a new vision for bettering and improving our condition.

    The old vision of Pure Reason is dead – what will take its place?

    The Leftist vision, such as it is, is clearly failing. People are beginning to doubt that it is the path towards the betterment of our human condition.

    But in the meantime its the only game in town.

    My observations are merely objective reflections on reality. Take them or leave them as you like.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @AaronB


    When you are really inspired by your values you want to see them completely triumph everywhere. You think that’s destiny.
     
    Do you think it's a virtue to be a mindless zealot, a fanatic?

    Reasonable compromise is defensive, not expansive. The side that adopts it will be extinguished by someone more vigorous.
     
    You do realize that you're making the case for a militant counter-movement like the historical facists?

    Replies: @AaronB

    , @AaronB
    @AaronB

    And values = what you think conduces to human flourishing and betterment.

    What else do humans "value"?

    And human flourishing and betterment - an increase in well being and health - is obviously an increase in human power.

    God, I've become a Nietzschean! Kill me now.

    But the main problem with Nietzsche was his childish and restricted understanding of what power is, and his focus on its negative forms.

    Obviously an increase in cooperation and benevolence increases human well being and ability to thrive as a species, and thus human power. But Nietzsche could not see that. He did not have a comprehensive enough view of humans flourishing as a species. Some mental defect kept him preoccupied with negative power, and he failed to see how this results in a lower form of human flourishing, or even chaos.

    , @Dmitry
    @AaronB

    Actual "reason" - not meaning just some "belief in Enlightenment values" - is a much more interesting and inescapable topic, because it reflects structure of the external to merely human world.

    "Belief in Enlightenment values", is just a symptom of our discovery of greater powers of reason than we previously believed. But those powers of reason exist independently of our discovery or belief in them.

    Calculations with pencil and paper, determine whether the bridge across the river will be stable, or collapse. That ability of reason to access nature - and to be essentially the "cheat sheet" of external world - is not any "cultural" value.

    And here is the real mystery you should be thinking about, and which people try to ignore or push away since the time of Pythagoras. Why can we access truth about the external world, through analytic tautologies like numbers and logical symbols? This should be impossible - as they should be only tautologies, or formal artificial systems in the mind.

    Yet the external world, outside your mind, is following the same "artificial" logic and reason you can access inside your mind.

    Typical funny conspiracy theory is that the possibility of our "synthetic a priori" knowledge, is proof that we're living in a virtual reality simulation.

    I can see how this would explain why we can so easily study physics, and understand the world abstractly with a pencil and paper. It would simply be like someone inferring the machine code, from examining a high-level programming language operating on it.

    Of course, such conspiracy theory just pushes the mystery back to another dimension (in which a demiuge who is outside the simulation has built some machine, to run your simulation) in the typical gnostic fashion. But it should still show you how strange the power of "logic and reason" actually is.

    Replies: @AaronB, @utu

  698. German_reader says:
    @AaronB
    @Mitleser

    Values and power are intertwined. When you are really inspired by your values you want to see them completely triumph everywhere. You think that's destiny.

    During the West's imperial expansion phase, everyone believed Western values were superior and wanted to see them triumph over the whole world. Many Americans today still believe that.

    There is no standing still. There is either expansion or contraction.

    Reasonable compromise is defensive, not expansive. The side that adopts it will be extinguished by someone more vigorous.

    Humans have a feeling that we are on a path to something better and greater, that we have a glorious destiny. People who tap into this win out over people who don't have such a vision.

    For 500 years the West was convinced that its culture of Reason was improving mankind and moving along towards a glorious destiny. From the beginning, some thinkers had their misgivings, but the majority believed in it. World War One shattered this dream. In truth by the late 19th century serious doubts about the ability of Reason to create something better out of mankind were becoming widespread.

    But the source of 500 years of Western vitality was the belief that Reason will make something better out of mankind.

    When that faith was lost, the West collapsed.

    The Left today believes it is on the path to making something better out of mankind. The sentiment expressed in a "reasonable compromise" has no belief in bettering mankind. Therefore it has no chance of success.

    The West will become energetic and vital once again when it comes up with a new vision for bettering and improving our condition.

    The old vision of Pure Reason is dead - what will take its place?

    The Leftist vision, such as it is, is clearly failing. People are beginning to doubt that it is the path towards the betterment of our human condition.

    But in the meantime its the only game in town.

    My observations are merely objective reflections on reality. Take them or leave them as you like.

    Replies: @German_reader, @AaronB, @Dmitry

    When you are really inspired by your values you want to see them completely triumph everywhere. You think that’s destiny.

    Do you think it’s a virtue to be a mindless zealot, a fanatic?

    Reasonable compromise is defensive, not expansive. The side that adopts it will be extinguished by someone more vigorous.

    You do realize that you’re making the case for a militant counter-movement like the historical facists?

    • Replies: @AaronB
    @German_reader

    First of all, objectively observing that fanatics tend to win out over the lukewarm does not imply, as of yet, any value system. It is a mere observation of fact that any realist must accept.

    Second of all, to call an attitude that makes people survive and thrive mindless, and an attitude that leads to surrender and death intelligent, is to stretch those terms beyond meaning.

    Surely, whatever helps one survive and flourish is the very definition of intelligence.

    And if you look at how being a "mindless fanatic" became a pejorative, it was precisely because people who thought that way survived and flourished less well than Europeans who embraced Reason and its gifts.

    Reality and results always have the last word.

    No, I am not making the case either for militant fascists or for mindless fanaticism.

    I am making the case for having a roadmap towards human betterment and improvement. This need not be mindless. Reason should surely play a role in developing it. True rationality - as in, what really works, not what "seems" intelligent. The ruthless empiricism of science at its best, which accepts reality as it actually is, not as it "should" be. Such empiricism would never call what plainly works "stupid".

  699. I have watched some of the Biden clips. Mostly him touching young girls. Some wives. I honestly winced a few times, and I think most of them were from C-SPAN. He did it in front of TV cameras.

    He’s done. No way he could win. On a Creepy scale of 1-10, 10 being the highest. I’d say he’s an 8, and I’d only put him that low because there are people like Michael Jackson.

    Probably politicians are naturally creepier because they are more extroverted and thus tend to have low impulse control.

  700. @AaronB
    @Mitleser

    Values and power are intertwined. When you are really inspired by your values you want to see them completely triumph everywhere. You think that's destiny.

    During the West's imperial expansion phase, everyone believed Western values were superior and wanted to see them triumph over the whole world. Many Americans today still believe that.

    There is no standing still. There is either expansion or contraction.

    Reasonable compromise is defensive, not expansive. The side that adopts it will be extinguished by someone more vigorous.

    Humans have a feeling that we are on a path to something better and greater, that we have a glorious destiny. People who tap into this win out over people who don't have such a vision.

    For 500 years the West was convinced that its culture of Reason was improving mankind and moving along towards a glorious destiny. From the beginning, some thinkers had their misgivings, but the majority believed in it. World War One shattered this dream. In truth by the late 19th century serious doubts about the ability of Reason to create something better out of mankind were becoming widespread.

    But the source of 500 years of Western vitality was the belief that Reason will make something better out of mankind.

    When that faith was lost, the West collapsed.

    The Left today believes it is on the path to making something better out of mankind. The sentiment expressed in a "reasonable compromise" has no belief in bettering mankind. Therefore it has no chance of success.

    The West will become energetic and vital once again when it comes up with a new vision for bettering and improving our condition.

    The old vision of Pure Reason is dead - what will take its place?

    The Leftist vision, such as it is, is clearly failing. People are beginning to doubt that it is the path towards the betterment of our human condition.

    But in the meantime its the only game in town.

    My observations are merely objective reflections on reality. Take them or leave them as you like.

    Replies: @German_reader, @AaronB, @Dmitry

    And values = what you think conduces to human flourishing and betterment.

    What else do humans “value”?

    And human flourishing and betterment – an increase in well being and health – is obviously an increase in human power.

    God, I’ve become a Nietzschean! Kill me now.

    But the main problem with Nietzsche was his childish and restricted understanding of what power is, and his focus on its negative forms.

    Obviously an increase in cooperation and benevolence increases human well being and ability to thrive as a species, and thus human power. But Nietzsche could not see that. He did not have a comprehensive enough view of humans flourishing as a species. Some mental defect kept him preoccupied with negative power, and he failed to see how this results in a lower form of human flourishing, or even chaos.

  701. @German_reader
    @AaronB


    When you are really inspired by your values you want to see them completely triumph everywhere. You think that’s destiny.
     
    Do you think it's a virtue to be a mindless zealot, a fanatic?

    Reasonable compromise is defensive, not expansive. The side that adopts it will be extinguished by someone more vigorous.
     
    You do realize that you're making the case for a militant counter-movement like the historical facists?

    Replies: @AaronB

    First of all, objectively observing that fanatics tend to win out over the lukewarm does not imply, as of yet, any value system. It is a mere observation of fact that any realist must accept.

    Second of all, to call an attitude that makes people survive and thrive mindless, and an attitude that leads to surrender and death intelligent, is to stretch those terms beyond meaning.

    Surely, whatever helps one survive and flourish is the very definition of intelligence.

    And if you look at how being a “mindless fanatic” became a pejorative, it was precisely because people who thought that way survived and flourished less well than Europeans who embraced Reason and its gifts.

    Reality and results always have the last word.

    No, I am not making the case either for militant fascists or for mindless fanaticism.

    I am making the case for having a roadmap towards human betterment and improvement. This need not be mindless. Reason should surely play a role in developing it. True rationality – as in, what really works, not what “seems” intelligent. The ruthless empiricism of science at its best, which accepts reality as it actually is, not as it “should” be. Such empiricism would never call what plainly works “stupid”.

  702. @GR

    Many inspiring visions of human destiny involved an increase in cooperation and benevolence and were not militant or fascist.

    And one can construct a roadmap towards human flourishing that involves limited aims that take cognizance of human frailty, that encourage epistemic humility and skepticism, limited local patriotism, organic food, and specifically rejects the claims of science towards total knowledge and absolute control, or universal indiscriminate benevolence as the best way to ensure peace and cooperation.

    Empiricism, and the lessons of reality, subject to rational analysis, should be the rule.

    Nassim Taleb, as well as certain ancient thinkers have this roadmap.

    The topic is wider and more interesting than you think, and possibilities abound.

    The key thing is to have a vision of human betterment and flourishing.

  703. @AaronB
    @Mitleser

    Values and power are intertwined. When you are really inspired by your values you want to see them completely triumph everywhere. You think that's destiny.

    During the West's imperial expansion phase, everyone believed Western values were superior and wanted to see them triumph over the whole world. Many Americans today still believe that.

    There is no standing still. There is either expansion or contraction.

    Reasonable compromise is defensive, not expansive. The side that adopts it will be extinguished by someone more vigorous.

    Humans have a feeling that we are on a path to something better and greater, that we have a glorious destiny. People who tap into this win out over people who don't have such a vision.

    For 500 years the West was convinced that its culture of Reason was improving mankind and moving along towards a glorious destiny. From the beginning, some thinkers had their misgivings, but the majority believed in it. World War One shattered this dream. In truth by the late 19th century serious doubts about the ability of Reason to create something better out of mankind were becoming widespread.

    But the source of 500 years of Western vitality was the belief that Reason will make something better out of mankind.

    When that faith was lost, the West collapsed.

    The Left today believes it is on the path to making something better out of mankind. The sentiment expressed in a "reasonable compromise" has no belief in bettering mankind. Therefore it has no chance of success.

    The West will become energetic and vital once again when it comes up with a new vision for bettering and improving our condition.

    The old vision of Pure Reason is dead - what will take its place?

    The Leftist vision, such as it is, is clearly failing. People are beginning to doubt that it is the path towards the betterment of our human condition.

    But in the meantime its the only game in town.

    My observations are merely objective reflections on reality. Take them or leave them as you like.

    Replies: @German_reader, @AaronB, @Dmitry

    Actual “reason” – not meaning just some “belief in Enlightenment values” – is a much more interesting and inescapable topic, because it reflects structure of the external to merely human world.

    “Belief in Enlightenment values”, is just a symptom of our discovery of greater powers of reason than we previously believed. But those powers of reason exist independently of our discovery or belief in them.

    Calculations with pencil and paper, determine whether the bridge across the river will be stable, or collapse. That ability of reason to access nature – and to be essentially the “cheat sheet” of external world – is not any “cultural” value.

    And here is the real mystery you should be thinking about, and which people try to ignore or push away since the time of Pythagoras. Why can we access truth about the external world, through analytic tautologies like numbers and logical symbols? This should be impossible – as they should be only tautologies, or formal artificial systems in the mind.

    Yet the external world, outside your mind, is following the same “artificial” logic and reason you can access inside your mind.

    Typical funny conspiracy theory is that the possibility of our “synthetic a priori” knowledge, is proof that we’re living in a virtual reality simulation.

    I can see how this would explain why we can so easily study physics, and understand the world abstractly with a pencil and paper. It would simply be like someone inferring the machine code, from examining a high-level programming language operating on it.

    Of course, such conspiracy theory just pushes the mystery back to another dimension (in which a demiuge who is outside the simulation has built some machine, to run your simulation) in the typical gnostic fashion. But it should still show you how strange the power of “logic and reason” actually is.

    • Replies: @AaronB
    @Dmitry

    I agree - the real empirical world is far more fascinating than our notions of what is "reasonable". And uncannier.

    I believe someone called it the "strange unreasonableness of mathematics" or something like that - that numbers in our minds correspond to the outside world. We have no right to expect such a thing - but there it is.

    And yes, this brings into question the very concept of a reality "out there". As I know you know, certain philosophical schools from certain geographical regions did not believe there was such a clear separation between "us" and "reality". Such a separation may be only a useful heuristic.

    Another weird thing about reason is that if you follow any proposition long enough it contradicts itself. Kant demonstrated this. Yet in practical life, it doesn't matter. Reason does allow us to deal with the external world successfully.

    Whatever that external world is.

    Back to numbers, it was a tremendously successful thought experiment - investigating the external world only through numbers. People basically said - let's see how far we can get if we only look at numbers. We got very far. And we still have more to go. But its also time for the next stage.

    , @utu
    @Dmitry

    I listened to some great physicists (you can find them on the YT) pondering on the apparent mystery why mathematics turns out to be so useful in physics. But to tell you the truth I find their talks disingenuous because I can't believe that they are actually that moronic to think there is a mystery in this question. There is no mystery or paradox. Those great physicists must not know or pretend to no know philosophy perhaps by following the example of the greatest ignoramus Feynman who had too much hubris to engage into philosophy. One should go back to 19 century and read Poincare and the great French epistemologist and historian of science Pierre Duhem.

    First of all mathematics began as an empirical science (counting goats and measuring land plots) and its abstraction was constructed just like abstraction of physics was constructed later with the help of mathematics. The laws of algebra like associative law, commutative law and distributive law were discovered empirically.

    Physics does not predict anything. It describes. Physics is as tautological as mathematics once it is expressed in the language of mathematics. It is a mathematical language of physics that describes our observations. And if we want to be quantitative we engage mathematics and what is physics without quantitative description? So physics must be mathematics. There is no other option.

    The abstract mathematics began to evolve and created new abstract structures but only small fraction of them have any usage in physics to describe some observations. There is a human process of pick and choose. The fact that some mathematical methods fit well in physical description is our choice. We reject abstractions that do not fit. Even on a very low level of high school physics a 2nd order polynomial gives you two solutions of which one you reject because it is not physical for some reason. You can derive Lorentz and Galileo transforms from group theory (first time it was done by Ignatowski in 1910) but it produces also a third solution which is nether Lorentz nor Galileo that is rejected because it did not find an application in physics.

    One can overdo mathematics and impose it on physics and get into a trouble. Pythagoras created this whole system of Universe and its God based on integer numbers and their ratios and that was supposed to describe everything. And then his student Hippasus proved that the square root of two, i.e, the length of the diagonal of a square with sides equal to one unit can't be expressed as a ratio of two integers. He discovered an irrational number. For this fact supposedly he was drowned by Pythagoras followers and the knowledge of his discovery was suppressed because the whole physics of Pythagoras based on his mathematics was shattered.

    Physics is very tautological. Pierre Duhem and Henri Poincare dealt with it arguing that any experiment that is constructed to prove or disprove something contains many hidden assumptions of existing theory and its mathematical structure so the outcome of being binary is predetermined, i.e, no new discovery could be possible from what already is implicitly imbedded in the structure of the theory that constructed the experiment.

    Duhem's name is given to the underdetermination or Duhem–Quine thesis, which holds that for any given set of observations there is an innumerably large number of explanations. It is, in essence, the same as Hume's critique of induction: all three variants point at the fact that empirical evidence cannot force the choice of a theory or its revision.

    Replies: @Epigon, @Dmitry

  704. @DFH
    @Anonymous

    I can think of tons of people worse than Spencer who I would promote if that was my goal. Spencer is normal-looking, articulate and doesn't flaunt bad-optics symbols or words

    Replies: @Dmitry

    Goal was to attack Trump, not Spencer (Spencer himself is of no political significance and his ideas were only useful to 2016 President’s election insofar as they could be used to damage political opponents by association with them).

    Spencer was a non-famous and non-important person, with no influence and no job, whose internet search ranking was below people called “Richard Spencer” who had real jobs, like a corporate lawyer and an economist.

    The media created Richard Spencer as a famous and significant villain in 2016 (and he intentionally played this character for they wanted, in the way he clothes himself, cuts his hair, etc), because he is a perfect, simple propaganda weapon they can associate with Trump, and therefore lose votes for Trump.

    Actually existing, Richard Spencer seems more a marketing troll, than any “American nationalist leader”. He has children with a caucasian SJW woman , so his real life is less racist than of any, average normal (even the most liberal) people who almost all marry women from their own nationality. However, he looks like a villain from a film.

    • Replies: @Mr. XYZ
    @Dmitry

    His wife is the Russian Nina Byzantina, no?

    Replies: @Hyperborean

  705. @Dmitry
    @DFH

    Goal was to attack Trump, not Spencer (Spencer himself is of no political significance and his ideas were only useful to 2016 President's election insofar as they could be used to damage political opponents by association with them).

    Spencer was a non-famous and non-important person, with no influence and no job, whose internet search ranking was below people called "Richard Spencer" who had real jobs, like a corporate lawyer and an economist.

    The media created Richard Spencer as a famous and significant villain in 2016 (and he intentionally played this character for they wanted, in the way he clothes himself, cuts his hair, etc), because he is a perfect, simple propaganda weapon they can associate with Trump, and therefore lose votes for Trump.

    Actually existing, Richard Spencer seems more a marketing troll, than any "American nationalist leader". He has children with a caucasian SJW woman , so his real life is less racist than of any, average normal (even the most liberal) people who almost all marry women from their own nationality. However, he looks like a villain from a film.

    Replies: @Mr. XYZ

    His wife is the Russian Nina Byzantina, no?

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
    @Mr. XYZ


    His wife is the Russian Nina Byzantina, no?
     
    She's part Georgian. Even though most Americans would probably just consider her Russian, I don't think marrying a Georgian or Armenian would be considered that different from marrying a Greek or Serbian woman in modern America.

    Replies: @Hyperborean

  706. @Mr. XYZ
    @Dmitry

    His wife is the Russian Nina Byzantina, no?

    Replies: @Hyperborean

    His wife is the Russian Nina Byzantina, no?

    She’s part Georgian. Even though most Americans would probably just consider her Russian, I don’t think marrying a Georgian or Armenian would be considered that different from marrying a Greek or Serbian woman in modern America.

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
    @Hyperborean

    Kouprianova is a Duginist who supports Eurasian integration and reconciliation between the Red and White parts of Russian History (in Karlin’s terms "Soviet-Eurasianism"). Having too close ties with Central Asia is a poor idea but the most SJW belief she has is probably criticising Karlin's belief in HBD as autistic nonsense.

    I think Dmitry is confusing her with Spencer's new American girlfriend who is a real SJW.

    Replies: @Dmitry

  707. @Dmitry
    @AaronB

    Actual "reason" - not meaning just some "belief in Enlightenment values" - is a much more interesting and inescapable topic, because it reflects structure of the external to merely human world.

    "Belief in Enlightenment values", is just a symptom of our discovery of greater powers of reason than we previously believed. But those powers of reason exist independently of our discovery or belief in them.

    Calculations with pencil and paper, determine whether the bridge across the river will be stable, or collapse. That ability of reason to access nature - and to be essentially the "cheat sheet" of external world - is not any "cultural" value.

    And here is the real mystery you should be thinking about, and which people try to ignore or push away since the time of Pythagoras. Why can we access truth about the external world, through analytic tautologies like numbers and logical symbols? This should be impossible - as they should be only tautologies, or formal artificial systems in the mind.

    Yet the external world, outside your mind, is following the same "artificial" logic and reason you can access inside your mind.

    Typical funny conspiracy theory is that the possibility of our "synthetic a priori" knowledge, is proof that we're living in a virtual reality simulation.

    I can see how this would explain why we can so easily study physics, and understand the world abstractly with a pencil and paper. It would simply be like someone inferring the machine code, from examining a high-level programming language operating on it.

    Of course, such conspiracy theory just pushes the mystery back to another dimension (in which a demiuge who is outside the simulation has built some machine, to run your simulation) in the typical gnostic fashion. But it should still show you how strange the power of "logic and reason" actually is.

    Replies: @AaronB, @utu

    I agree – the real empirical world is far more fascinating than our notions of what is “reasonable”. And uncannier.

    I believe someone called it the “strange unreasonableness of mathematics” or something like that – that numbers in our minds correspond to the outside world. We have no right to expect such a thing – but there it is.

    And yes, this brings into question the very concept of a reality “out there”. As I know you know, certain philosophical schools from certain geographical regions did not believe there was such a clear separation between “us” and “reality”. Such a separation may be only a useful heuristic.

    Another weird thing about reason is that if you follow any proposition long enough it contradicts itself. Kant demonstrated this. Yet in practical life, it doesn’t matter. Reason does allow us to deal with the external world successfully.

    Whatever that external world is.

    Back to numbers, it was a tremendously successful thought experiment – investigating the external world only through numbers. People basically said – let’s see how far we can get if we only look at numbers. We got very far. And we still have more to go. But its also time for the next stage.

  708. @Hyperborean
    @Mr. XYZ


    His wife is the Russian Nina Byzantina, no?
     
    She's part Georgian. Even though most Americans would probably just consider her Russian, I don't think marrying a Georgian or Armenian would be considered that different from marrying a Greek or Serbian woman in modern America.

    Replies: @Hyperborean

    Kouprianova is a Duginist who supports Eurasian integration and reconciliation between the Red and White parts of Russian History (in Karlin’s terms “Soviet-Eurasianism”). Having too close ties with Central Asia is a poor idea but the most SJW belief she has is probably criticising Karlin’s belief in HBD as autistic nonsense.

    I think Dmitry is confusing her with Spencer’s new American girlfriend who is a real SJW.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @Hyperborean

    Sure I only follow the story on Karlin's blog. But I'm sure she has been described as SJW here.

    As for race/nationality. The name is Russian, but people here say she is Georgian. From the face, she looks semi-caucasian type of Georgian. So it's an equivalent of if the alleged leader of Russian nationalism, was having children with a Mexican woman with an American name.

    There's nothing wrong with this, of course.

    But I can imagine American nationalists would be laughing about it as an irony, or something that was offensive to American nationalism, if Russian nationalists marry Mexicans.

    As for Georgians, they are a mix of different races living together, like so many other races (such as Mexicans even). Unlike Armenians, quite a proportion of Georgians are obviously look Europeans externally. Personally, Georgians I met who just look European.


    E.g. look at Georgian politicians or celebrities

    Some politician looks very Spanish or Italian to me

    https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10156621404003410&set=pb.612873409.-2207520000.1554245489.&type=3&theater

    Whereas Saakashvili is a pure caucasian race.

    https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10155737577258410&set=pb.612873409.-2207520000.1554245607.&type=3&theater

    Georgia's Minister of Economics looks like some North African girls
    https://i.imgur.com/PK0kTGV.jpg

    Some Georgian celebrities look half-European

    https://www.instagram.com/p/BsEZhklhlq8/

    And then others look almost Spanish

    https://www.instagram.com/p/BoJ4IfPnxNs/

    Maybe more "aristocratic" caucasian look

    https://www.instagram.com/p/BknLT8ql-Bs/

    Then the really more typical dark caucasian race Georgians (which are like Armenians and Turks).

    https://www.instagram.com/p/BvbSXy6l99J/


    And more typical dark Georgians, which look the identical as Armenians and Turks
    https://www.instagram.com/p/Bp9oEcIHdan/

    -
    Richard Spencer wife - she's somewhere in the "middle range" ?
    https://i.imgur.com/fykdC9e.jpg

    https://i.imgur.com/ZZsoXLo.jpg

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson, @songbird, @melanf, @melanf, @reiner Tor

  709. utu says:
    @Dmitry
    @AaronB

    Actual "reason" - not meaning just some "belief in Enlightenment values" - is a much more interesting and inescapable topic, because it reflects structure of the external to merely human world.

    "Belief in Enlightenment values", is just a symptom of our discovery of greater powers of reason than we previously believed. But those powers of reason exist independently of our discovery or belief in them.

    Calculations with pencil and paper, determine whether the bridge across the river will be stable, or collapse. That ability of reason to access nature - and to be essentially the "cheat sheet" of external world - is not any "cultural" value.

    And here is the real mystery you should be thinking about, and which people try to ignore or push away since the time of Pythagoras. Why can we access truth about the external world, through analytic tautologies like numbers and logical symbols? This should be impossible - as they should be only tautologies, or formal artificial systems in the mind.

    Yet the external world, outside your mind, is following the same "artificial" logic and reason you can access inside your mind.

    Typical funny conspiracy theory is that the possibility of our "synthetic a priori" knowledge, is proof that we're living in a virtual reality simulation.

    I can see how this would explain why we can so easily study physics, and understand the world abstractly with a pencil and paper. It would simply be like someone inferring the machine code, from examining a high-level programming language operating on it.

    Of course, such conspiracy theory just pushes the mystery back to another dimension (in which a demiuge who is outside the simulation has built some machine, to run your simulation) in the typical gnostic fashion. But it should still show you how strange the power of "logic and reason" actually is.

    Replies: @AaronB, @utu

    I listened to some great physicists (you can find them on the YT) pondering on the apparent mystery why mathematics turns out to be so useful in physics. But to tell you the truth I find their talks disingenuous because I can’t believe that they are actually that moronic to think there is a mystery in this question. There is no mystery or paradox. Those great physicists must not know or pretend to no know philosophy perhaps by following the example of the greatest ignoramus Feynman who had too much hubris to engage into philosophy. One should go back to 19 century and read Poincare and the great French epistemologist and historian of science Pierre Duhem.

    First of all mathematics began as an empirical science (counting goats and measuring land plots) and its abstraction was constructed just like abstraction of physics was constructed later with the help of mathematics. The laws of algebra like associative law, commutative law and distributive law were discovered empirically.

    Physics does not predict anything. It describes. Physics is as tautological as mathematics once it is expressed in the language of mathematics. It is a mathematical language of physics that describes our observations. And if we want to be quantitative we engage mathematics and what is physics without quantitative description? So physics must be mathematics. There is no other option.

    The abstract mathematics began to evolve and created new abstract structures but only small fraction of them have any usage in physics to describe some observations. There is a human process of pick and choose. The fact that some mathematical methods fit well in physical description is our choice. We reject abstractions that do not fit. Even on a very low level of high school physics a 2nd order polynomial gives you two solutions of which one you reject because it is not physical for some reason. You can derive Lorentz and Galileo transforms from group theory (first time it was done by Ignatowski in 1910) but it produces also a third solution which is nether Lorentz nor Galileo that is rejected because it did not find an application in physics.

    One can overdo mathematics and impose it on physics and get into a trouble. Pythagoras created this whole system of Universe and its God based on integer numbers and their ratios and that was supposed to describe everything. And then his student Hippasus proved that the square root of two, i.e, the length of the diagonal of a square with sides equal to one unit can’t be expressed as a ratio of two integers. He discovered an irrational number. For this fact supposedly he was drowned by Pythagoras followers and the knowledge of his discovery was suppressed because the whole physics of Pythagoras based on his mathematics was shattered.

    Physics is very tautological. Pierre Duhem and Henri Poincare dealt with it arguing that any experiment that is constructed to prove or disprove something contains many hidden assumptions of existing theory and its mathematical structure so the outcome of being binary is predetermined, i.e, no new discovery could be possible from what already is implicitly imbedded in the structure of the theory that constructed the experiment.

    Duhem’s name is given to the underdetermination or Duhem–Quine thesis, which holds that for any given set of observations there is an innumerably large number of explanations. It is, in essence, the same as Hume’s critique of induction: all three variants point at the fact that empirical evidence cannot force the choice of a theory or its revision.

    • Agree: Epigon
    • Replies: @Epigon
    @utu

    What is your detailed opinion of astrophysics and theoretical mathematics?

    Replies: @utu

    , @Dmitry
    @utu


    they are actually that moronic to think there is a mystery in this question.
     
    There's nothing surprising that physicists like any modern professionals, are often naive outside their daily work - so they might not know people have been discussing the same problems for thousands of years, as awareness of these discussions has no relation to their job performance.

    Awareness today that there were historical discussions of it, you will only have if your particular hobby is read those discussions.

    Mystery is not that the theories are tautological structures, or that we can make internally consistent (consistent according to "relations of ideas") castles in our mind, and select one which matches descriptively physical results, and exclude another which does not match.

    Mystery is that world is regular enough, that at any level of description - of such theories - there will be at least one (but usually more than one, as you would know from history of science) which can descriptively match the results with the precision of a Swiss watch, and this will continue across time. And that you can zoom in and out at difference layers of description, select a theory, and it should be reducible to the lower layer of description by bridge laws.

    Again there's no mystery in the use of mathematics in physics. There's no mystery on the theory side. Mystery is not on "theory side". The mystery is all on "world side" - that we live in world which is ordered, mechanical, predictable, in order words, conducive to theory.

    There's also two parts of mystery here.

    1. World is behaving in uniform way. (which allows inductive inference)
    2. And world is logically regular.

    Where 2 is a real mystery or not, dependents on things like to what extent are analytic statements a tautological product of our mind (and dependent on your position on questions like analytic/synthetic distinction).

    But 1 is not a product of our mind. Regularity and precision of the world is an independent fact, which is separate from any observation of it.

    And of course that is a real mystery (although the popular modern conspiracy theories that we are living in a virtual reality simulation, are not performing anything better than Plato writing about a demiurge over 2400 years ago).


    The fact that some mathematical methods fit well in physical description is our choice.
     
    There's a choice in selection of different models. The fact physical description can fit with models in general, or the model is constant from one moment to another, is the actual mystery - and you write this in the quoted text: "Hume’s critique of induction".

    Hume showed for induction, we have to assume, unjustifiably, the uniformity of nature. But there is no way to justify that belief in continued uniformity of nature itself, except in circular way (by induction).

    Of course, our brain is "wired" to accept and infer on basis of uniformity of nature - but objectively, it is a form of "blind faith".


    Duhem’s name is given to the underdetermination or Duhem–Quine thesis, which holds that for any given set of observations there is an innumerably large number of explanations.
     
    Of course, models are underdetermined, but the idea here is we can select the presently best one "holistically", by looking at how it affects - in overt or implicit way - our other commitments.

    In this way, Quine rejects analytic-synthetic distinction. So for him, analytic statements are not tautologies, but are empirical statements close to the center of our present "total web of knowledge", on which are a lot of other confirmed observations are supported.

    He originally thought we even can sometimes recode our "analytic" statements, if it empirically necessary to make our other beliefs work.

    I've been reading Quine's book on language, which is very entertaining.
    https://www.unz.com/akarlin/powerful-bookshelf/?highlight=quine#comment-3026715

    Quine later writes some books on logic where he accepts some of it is indispensable.

    The strange result of this, was that Quine then infers mathematical/logical realism.
    https://www.iep.utm.edu/indimath/#H2

    So radical empiricism also led to Platonism, in the 20th century.

    Replies: @utu

  710. @utu
    Slovakia election:

    ČAPUTOVÁ JE PRODUKT IZRAELČANA
    https://www.extraplus.sk/clanok/caputova-je-produkt-izraelcana

    http://strategyandcampaigns.com/team/

    Replies: @bb.

    i mean, maybe the israelis are just good at media and pr? the same guy did work for FPO in Austria, hardly in line with Caputovas globo-homo agenda. Everything for the shekel ei

    • Replies: @utu
    @bb.

    Yes, gobo-home yet the US officially denied:

    US Not Seeking to Build Military Base, Station Troops in Slovakia - Ambassador
    https://sputniknews.com/military/201903181073342859-us-military-base-slovakia/

    Wasn't it Alexander Gorchakov who did not believe in news that were not officially denied?

    Replies: @bb.

  711. @DFH
    @Dmitry


    War museum, is not anti-war – it should simply be accurate and unpleasant.

    It should show people the most notable consequences of war.
     
    War museums are for looking at tanks, planes, rockets and Nazi memorabilia

    Replies: @LondonBob

    Something the Imperial War Museum has forgotten. Much preferred the Central Armed Forces Museum in Moscow.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    @LondonBob

    Has the Imperial War Museum changed recently?

    I visited in 2003 and found no shortage of such things.

    My biggest complaint was its burnishing of the Montgomery cult.

    Replies: @LondonBob

  712. @bb.
    @utu

    i mean, maybe the israelis are just good at media and pr? the same guy did work for FPO in Austria, hardly in line with Caputovas globo-homo agenda. Everything for the shekel ei

    Replies: @utu

    Yes, gobo-home yet the US officially denied:

    US Not Seeking to Build Military Base, Station Troops in Slovakia – Ambassador
    https://sputniknews.com/military/201903181073342859-us-military-base-slovakia/

    Wasn’t it Alexander Gorchakov who did not believe in news that were not officially denied?

    • Replies: @bb.
    @utu

    lol. They can always claim that service personnel on the airports is not really military presence, amirite? God I loath Lajcak so much, he's such a cuck. Of course not just him. Gajdos some months earlier had no problem with the support infrastructure in tandem with the F16s. They are in it just for the shekels, no honor, just bullshit.

  713. @utu
    @Dmitry

    I listened to some great physicists (you can find them on the YT) pondering on the apparent mystery why mathematics turns out to be so useful in physics. But to tell you the truth I find their talks disingenuous because I can't believe that they are actually that moronic to think there is a mystery in this question. There is no mystery or paradox. Those great physicists must not know or pretend to no know philosophy perhaps by following the example of the greatest ignoramus Feynman who had too much hubris to engage into philosophy. One should go back to 19 century and read Poincare and the great French epistemologist and historian of science Pierre Duhem.

    First of all mathematics began as an empirical science (counting goats and measuring land plots) and its abstraction was constructed just like abstraction of physics was constructed later with the help of mathematics. The laws of algebra like associative law, commutative law and distributive law were discovered empirically.

    Physics does not predict anything. It describes. Physics is as tautological as mathematics once it is expressed in the language of mathematics. It is a mathematical language of physics that describes our observations. And if we want to be quantitative we engage mathematics and what is physics without quantitative description? So physics must be mathematics. There is no other option.

    The abstract mathematics began to evolve and created new abstract structures but only small fraction of them have any usage in physics to describe some observations. There is a human process of pick and choose. The fact that some mathematical methods fit well in physical description is our choice. We reject abstractions that do not fit. Even on a very low level of high school physics a 2nd order polynomial gives you two solutions of which one you reject because it is not physical for some reason. You can derive Lorentz and Galileo transforms from group theory (first time it was done by Ignatowski in 1910) but it produces also a third solution which is nether Lorentz nor Galileo that is rejected because it did not find an application in physics.

    One can overdo mathematics and impose it on physics and get into a trouble. Pythagoras created this whole system of Universe and its God based on integer numbers and their ratios and that was supposed to describe everything. And then his student Hippasus proved that the square root of two, i.e, the length of the diagonal of a square with sides equal to one unit can't be expressed as a ratio of two integers. He discovered an irrational number. For this fact supposedly he was drowned by Pythagoras followers and the knowledge of his discovery was suppressed because the whole physics of Pythagoras based on his mathematics was shattered.

    Physics is very tautological. Pierre Duhem and Henri Poincare dealt with it arguing that any experiment that is constructed to prove or disprove something contains many hidden assumptions of existing theory and its mathematical structure so the outcome of being binary is predetermined, i.e, no new discovery could be possible from what already is implicitly imbedded in the structure of the theory that constructed the experiment.

    Duhem's name is given to the underdetermination or Duhem–Quine thesis, which holds that for any given set of observations there is an innumerably large number of explanations. It is, in essence, the same as Hume's critique of induction: all three variants point at the fact that empirical evidence cannot force the choice of a theory or its revision.

    Replies: @Epigon, @Dmitry

    What is your detailed opinion of astrophysics and theoretical mathematics?

    • Replies: @utu
    @Epigon

    I do not know much about it. But let me say this: Astronomy was central to the development of physics. Humans looking up into the sky and being curious about what was it they saw created perhaps 70% of all physics that was known till the mid 19 century. The history of these developments is fascinating and what is most important the theories they developed have been proven correct to verification that became available in 20 century with new tools and space exploration. Basically they got the solar system right. The corrections that was introduced by the General Theory of Relativity were rather minor that pretty much can be ignored for most practical purposes within our solar system.

    Astrophysics has two legs: one stems from physics that we know that works on Earth and was verified here. This is basically the nuclear physics that helps us to explain what is going on inside stars, how they evolve and what they emit and how matter and elements are cretaed. The other leg concerns the space itself which hinges on two methods (postulates/assumptions): (1) red shift that is understood to be the Doppler effect from which the velocities of distant objects are measured and (2) Hubble's Law that was established empirically for not so distant objects with distances that could be measured using the parallax effect:

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2c/Hubble_constant.JPG

    The Hubble Law allows to measure distance of objects based on the Doppler shift. But the Hubble curve is extrapolated far, far...far beyond what Hubble had verified and there is no way of verifying it independently whether the curve indeed applies where it is being used. Unlike 16-18 century astronomers who could have their theories about the solar system verified by independent means in 20 centry the theories of current astrophysicists have no such chance. But it is possible that from hypotheses made by astrophysics we will find something in our neighborhood or on Earth. Perhaps they will find that crazy hypothetical "dark matter" and it will turn out to be something very useful like perfect anti aging anti wrinkle cream or new viagra without risk of blindness? But right now that dark matter is just a missing mathematical term to balance some equation that supposedly does not balance as they think it should. This balance can be accomplished by other means like by tweaking the one-over-the square law but this is not a favored approach because it would encroach on Einstein's infallibility.

    A lot of effort goes to 'prove' that Einstein was right. It seems to be an obsession bordering on a religious cult. And since Einstein sometimes held mutually contradictory opinions it is easy to announce that he was right in some cases. Only few thongs were verified quantitatively. But finding lensing effects can't quantitatively confirm Einstein General Relativity because the hypothetical objects that cause the lensing are, well, hypothetical so their mass can't be determined by independent means. Lensing effect can come form other theories as well.

    What astrophysicists do is very fascinating and fun but it is on the level of stories and fables produced within a mathematical framework that to some extent was verified in our neighborhood.

    As far as what is the theoretical mathematics? It can be anything. You can imagine some set with some elements and postulate that the elements have some mutual relations or properties and then you can start exploring what you can tell about this set and elements by weakening or strengthening assumptions about these properties. You may discover that the object already was described somewhere else or is isomorphically identical to one that exists in another branch of mathematics. Or you may discover that properties of your structure that you have created and explored can be used to solve problems of other structures where mathematicians got stuck.

    There are quite a few theoretical physicist who fell in love with the so called Clifford algebras which are quote flexible so the physicists are trying to make them do things that they think they may need in their physics. This effort is pretty much done by physicists not that much by mathematicians so it is possible that at some point some mathematicians will have to go there and restore the order and clean up the mess the physics have done but also to give a better foundation of the things that the physicists discovered that turned out to be useful.

    Replies: @reiner Tor

  714. @LondonBob
    @DFH

    Something the Imperial War Museum has forgotten. Much preferred the Central Armed Forces Museum in Moscow.

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson

    Has the Imperial War Museum changed recently?

    I visited in 2003 and found no shortage of such things.

    My biggest complaint was its burnishing of the Montgomery cult.

    • Replies: @LondonBob
    @Thorfinnsson

    Not enough stuff like tanks, artillery pieces etc. Too much ancillary stuff and dull stuff that tells a story about civilian life. Better to just line it all up and put as much weaponry out there as possible.

    Yanks can never evaluate Monty in a balanced manner because of when he had to take command of two US Armies and rescue things at the Battle of the Bulge.

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson

  715. bb. says:
    @utu
    @bb.

    Yes, gobo-home yet the US officially denied:

    US Not Seeking to Build Military Base, Station Troops in Slovakia - Ambassador
    https://sputniknews.com/military/201903181073342859-us-military-base-slovakia/

    Wasn't it Alexander Gorchakov who did not believe in news that were not officially denied?

    Replies: @bb.

    lol. They can always claim that service personnel on the airports is not really military presence, amirite? God I loath Lajcak so much, he’s such a cuck. Of course not just him. Gajdos some months earlier had no problem with the support infrastructure in tandem with the F16s. They are in it just for the shekels, no honor, just bullshit.

  716. @Thorfinnsson
    @LondonBob

    Has the Imperial War Museum changed recently?

    I visited in 2003 and found no shortage of such things.

    My biggest complaint was its burnishing of the Montgomery cult.

    Replies: @LondonBob

    Not enough stuff like tanks, artillery pieces etc. Too much ancillary stuff and dull stuff that tells a story about civilian life. Better to just line it all up and put as much weaponry out there as possible.

    Yanks can never evaluate Monty in a balanced manner because of when he had to take command of two US Armies and rescue things at the Battle of the Bulge.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    @LondonBob

    Perhaps the dull stories about civilian life have faded from my memory.

    Other than the Monty cult my strongest memory from the museum is an 800mm shell from the Schwerer Gustav.

    I don't have a problem with Monty, I was just irritated by the major Monty cult at the Imperial War Museum. American grousing about Monty comes down to:

    1 - He was pursuing British interests that conflicted with American aims
    2 - He wasn't American
    3 - He was rude

    I'm not bothered by these. He was a perfectly serviceable general. Perhaps not as good as Patton, but better than Omar Bradley...let alone Mark Clark. His strategic judgment was not good, but his operational judgment was decent.

    I'm of the impression that there were better British commanders than Monty, but they were on other fronts (e.g. Slim). On the other hand perhaps they would not have succeeded in command of such large formations and against German opposition.

    Montgomery's actions at the Battle of the Bulge were correct, though I'm mainly impressed by Eisenhower for having the courage to appoint a British commander.

    Replies: @LondonBob

  717. @LondonBob
    @Thorfinnsson

    Not enough stuff like tanks, artillery pieces etc. Too much ancillary stuff and dull stuff that tells a story about civilian life. Better to just line it all up and put as much weaponry out there as possible.

    Yanks can never evaluate Monty in a balanced manner because of when he had to take command of two US Armies and rescue things at the Battle of the Bulge.

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson

    Perhaps the dull stories about civilian life have faded from my memory.

    Other than the Monty cult my strongest memory from the museum is an 800mm shell from the Schwerer Gustav.

    I don’t have a problem with Monty, I was just irritated by the major Monty cult at the Imperial War Museum. American grousing about Monty comes down to:

    1 – He was pursuing British interests that conflicted with American aims
    2 – He wasn’t American
    3 – He was rude

    I’m not bothered by these. He was a perfectly serviceable general. Perhaps not as good as Patton, but better than Omar Bradley…let alone Mark Clark. His strategic judgment was not good, but his operational judgment was decent.

    I’m of the impression that there were better British commanders than Monty, but they were on other fronts (e.g. Slim). On the other hand perhaps they would not have succeeded in command of such large formations and against German opposition.

    Montgomery’s actions at the Battle of the Bulge were correct, though I’m mainly impressed by Eisenhower for having the courage to appoint a British commander.

    • Replies: @LondonBob
    @Thorfinnsson

    O'Connor's offensive against the Italians in North Africa, Operation Compass, was the most impressive British offensive of the war, O'Connor seeking to emulate Stonewall Jackson's tactics in his Shenandoah campaign with a smaller force using mobility and speed to rout a superior force. He did well enough in Normandy but did not distinguish himself. I actually think General Sir Miles Dempsey was the most capable, although he was Monty's protege so Monty deserves credit again for his ability to select competent underlings.

    I always find the criticism of Montgomery's cautiousness strange, Britain simply didn't have the manpower to waste. I am reminded of JFC Fuller's criticism of Lee being recklessly aggressive and wasting soldiers he could ill afford to lose.

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson

  718. utu says:
    @Epigon
    @utu

    What is your detailed opinion of astrophysics and theoretical mathematics?

    Replies: @utu

    I do not know much about it. But let me say this: Astronomy was central to the development of physics. Humans looking up into the sky and being curious about what was it they saw created perhaps 70% of all physics that was known till the mid 19 century. The history of these developments is fascinating and what is most important the theories they developed have been proven correct to verification that became available in 20 century with new tools and space exploration. Basically they got the solar system right. The corrections that was introduced by the General Theory of Relativity were rather minor that pretty much can be ignored for most practical purposes within our solar system.

    Astrophysics has two legs: one stems from physics that we know that works on Earth and was verified here. This is basically the nuclear physics that helps us to explain what is going on inside stars, how they evolve and what they emit and how matter and elements are cretaed. The other leg concerns the space itself which hinges on two methods (postulates/assumptions): (1) red shift that is understood to be the Doppler effect from which the velocities of distant objects are measured and (2) Hubble’s Law that was established empirically for not so distant objects with distances that could be measured using the parallax effect:

    The Hubble Law allows to measure distance of objects based on the Doppler shift. But the Hubble curve is extrapolated far, far…far beyond what Hubble had verified and there is no way of verifying it independently whether the curve indeed applies where it is being used. Unlike 16-18 century astronomers who could have their theories about the solar system verified by independent means in 20 centry the theories of current astrophysicists have no such chance. But it is possible that from hypotheses made by astrophysics we will find something in our neighborhood or on Earth. Perhaps they will find that crazy hypothetical “dark matter” and it will turn out to be something very useful like perfect anti aging anti wrinkle cream or new viagra without risk of blindness? But right now that dark matter is just a missing mathematical term to balance some equation that supposedly does not balance as they think it should. This balance can be accomplished by other means like by tweaking the one-over-the square law but this is not a favored approach because it would encroach on Einstein’s infallibility.

    A lot of effort goes to ‘prove’ that Einstein was right. It seems to be an obsession bordering on a religious cult. And since Einstein sometimes held mutually contradictory opinions it is easy to announce that he was right in some cases. Only few thongs were verified quantitatively. But finding lensing effects can’t quantitatively confirm Einstein General Relativity because the hypothetical objects that cause the lensing are, well, hypothetical so their mass can’t be determined by independent means. Lensing effect can come form other theories as well.

    What astrophysicists do is very fascinating and fun but it is on the level of stories and fables produced within a mathematical framework that to some extent was verified in our neighborhood.

    As far as what is the theoretical mathematics? It can be anything. You can imagine some set with some elements and postulate that the elements have some mutual relations or properties and then you can start exploring what you can tell about this set and elements by weakening or strengthening assumptions about these properties. You may discover that the object already was described somewhere else or is isomorphically identical to one that exists in another branch of mathematics. Or you may discover that properties of your structure that you have created and explored can be used to solve problems of other structures where mathematicians got stuck.

    There are quite a few theoretical physicist who fell in love with the so called Clifford algebras which are quote flexible so the physicists are trying to make them do things that they think they may need in their physics. This effort is pretty much done by physicists not that much by mathematicians so it is possible that at some point some mathematicians will have to go there and restore the order and clean up the mess the physics have done but also to give a better foundation of the things that the physicists discovered that turned out to be useful.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @utu


    The corrections that was introduced by the General Theory of Relativity were rather minor that pretty much can be ignored for most practical purposes within our solar system.
     
    GPS.

    Replies: @utu

  719. @utu
    @Epigon

    I do not know much about it. But let me say this: Astronomy was central to the development of physics. Humans looking up into the sky and being curious about what was it they saw created perhaps 70% of all physics that was known till the mid 19 century. The history of these developments is fascinating and what is most important the theories they developed have been proven correct to verification that became available in 20 century with new tools and space exploration. Basically they got the solar system right. The corrections that was introduced by the General Theory of Relativity were rather minor that pretty much can be ignored for most practical purposes within our solar system.

    Astrophysics has two legs: one stems from physics that we know that works on Earth and was verified here. This is basically the nuclear physics that helps us to explain what is going on inside stars, how they evolve and what they emit and how matter and elements are cretaed. The other leg concerns the space itself which hinges on two methods (postulates/assumptions): (1) red shift that is understood to be the Doppler effect from which the velocities of distant objects are measured and (2) Hubble's Law that was established empirically for not so distant objects with distances that could be measured using the parallax effect:

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2c/Hubble_constant.JPG

    The Hubble Law allows to measure distance of objects based on the Doppler shift. But the Hubble curve is extrapolated far, far...far beyond what Hubble had verified and there is no way of verifying it independently whether the curve indeed applies where it is being used. Unlike 16-18 century astronomers who could have their theories about the solar system verified by independent means in 20 centry the theories of current astrophysicists have no such chance. But it is possible that from hypotheses made by astrophysics we will find something in our neighborhood or on Earth. Perhaps they will find that crazy hypothetical "dark matter" and it will turn out to be something very useful like perfect anti aging anti wrinkle cream or new viagra without risk of blindness? But right now that dark matter is just a missing mathematical term to balance some equation that supposedly does not balance as they think it should. This balance can be accomplished by other means like by tweaking the one-over-the square law but this is not a favored approach because it would encroach on Einstein's infallibility.

    A lot of effort goes to 'prove' that Einstein was right. It seems to be an obsession bordering on a religious cult. And since Einstein sometimes held mutually contradictory opinions it is easy to announce that he was right in some cases. Only few thongs were verified quantitatively. But finding lensing effects can't quantitatively confirm Einstein General Relativity because the hypothetical objects that cause the lensing are, well, hypothetical so their mass can't be determined by independent means. Lensing effect can come form other theories as well.

    What astrophysicists do is very fascinating and fun but it is on the level of stories and fables produced within a mathematical framework that to some extent was verified in our neighborhood.

    As far as what is the theoretical mathematics? It can be anything. You can imagine some set with some elements and postulate that the elements have some mutual relations or properties and then you can start exploring what you can tell about this set and elements by weakening or strengthening assumptions about these properties. You may discover that the object already was described somewhere else or is isomorphically identical to one that exists in another branch of mathematics. Or you may discover that properties of your structure that you have created and explored can be used to solve problems of other structures where mathematicians got stuck.

    There are quite a few theoretical physicist who fell in love with the so called Clifford algebras which are quote flexible so the physicists are trying to make them do things that they think they may need in their physics. This effort is pretty much done by physicists not that much by mathematicians so it is possible that at some point some mathematicians will have to go there and restore the order and clean up the mess the physics have done but also to give a better foundation of the things that the physicists discovered that turned out to be useful.

    Replies: @reiner Tor

    The corrections that was introduced by the General Theory of Relativity were rather minor that pretty much can be ignored for most practical purposes within our solar system.

    GPS.

    • Replies: @utu
    @reiner Tor

    GPS can work w/o STR and GTR pretty well. Each satellite out of 24 or so is tracked constantly and its clocks and positions are recalibrated by the ground tracking stations once every two hours or so, iirc. There was even one tracking station in Russia which Russians as a retaliation after the 2014 sanctions shut down.

    You do not expect that the engineers that designed the GPS system would believe and rely on the truth of theoretical relativistic formulas because the physicists told them so. They built up a back up of tracking and recalibration to take care of all possible drifts and instabilities (including relativistic ones) in satellite clocks.

    Furthermore you can determine you position w/o having your own clock. All you need are positions of satellites that come in their signals and the times they sent the signals which they also send. And as long as their clocks are synchronized with each other but not necessarily with the Earth (which is irrelevant here because we assumed you have no clock) you will get a good position. You need 4 satellites to do it w/o a clock but 3 satellites if you have a clock synchronized with satellites' clocks.

    Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that GPS does not have relativistic corrections but I am saying that even if the relativistic corrections were not plugged in explicitly in the system, the system would still worked because it was so designed.

    We see many articles popping up hailing Einstein for giving us GPS that w/o him we would not have such a wonderful tool in our iPhones and everybody would be lost but this is just a part of Einstein's incessant apotheosis.

    Otoh, if we did not know of relativistic time changes theories the GPS system should lead us to discovery of it by analyzing the corrections that were added by the tracking system. Strangely I haven't seen many papers there that would use GPS to corroborate the validity of the relativistic corrections. Perhaps because there is such a pileup of corrections on top of each other that nobody anymore can figure out what is the raw signal.

    Replies: @Denis

  720. utu says:
    @reiner Tor
    @utu


    The corrections that was introduced by the General Theory of Relativity were rather minor that pretty much can be ignored for most practical purposes within our solar system.
     
    GPS.

    Replies: @utu

    GPS can work w/o STR and GTR pretty well. Each satellite out of 24 or so is tracked constantly and its clocks and positions are recalibrated by the ground tracking stations once every two hours or so, iirc. There was even one tracking station in Russia which Russians as a retaliation after the 2014 sanctions shut down.

    You do not expect that the engineers that designed the GPS system would believe and rely on the truth of theoretical relativistic formulas because the physicists told them so. They built up a back up of tracking and recalibration to take care of all possible drifts and instabilities (including relativistic ones) in satellite clocks.

    Furthermore you can determine you position w/o having your own clock. All you need are positions of satellites that come in their signals and the times they sent the signals which they also send. And as long as their clocks are synchronized with each other but not necessarily with the Earth (which is irrelevant here because we assumed you have no clock) you will get a good position. You need 4 satellites to do it w/o a clock but 3 satellites if you have a clock synchronized with satellites’ clocks.

    Don’t get me wrong, I am not saying that GPS does not have relativistic corrections but I am saying that even if the relativistic corrections were not plugged in explicitly in the system, the system would still worked because it was so designed.

    We see many articles popping up hailing Einstein for giving us GPS that w/o him we would not have such a wonderful tool in our iPhones and everybody would be lost but this is just a part of Einstein’s incessant apotheosis.

    Otoh, if we did not know of relativistic time changes theories the GPS system should lead us to discovery of it by analyzing the corrections that were added by the tracking system. Strangely I haven’t seen many papers there that would use GPS to corroborate the validity of the relativistic corrections. Perhaps because there is such a pileup of corrections on top of each other that nobody anymore can figure out what is the raw signal.

    • Replies: @Denis
    @utu

    I'm pretty much a layman in mathematics and physics, so I guess it's not worth much coming from me, but these were some great comments utu.

    Replies: @utu, @AP

  721. @utu
    @Dmitry

    I listened to some great physicists (you can find them on the YT) pondering on the apparent mystery why mathematics turns out to be so useful in physics. But to tell you the truth I find their talks disingenuous because I can't believe that they are actually that moronic to think there is a mystery in this question. There is no mystery or paradox. Those great physicists must not know or pretend to no know philosophy perhaps by following the example of the greatest ignoramus Feynman who had too much hubris to engage into philosophy. One should go back to 19 century and read Poincare and the great French epistemologist and historian of science Pierre Duhem.

    First of all mathematics began as an empirical science (counting goats and measuring land plots) and its abstraction was constructed just like abstraction of physics was constructed later with the help of mathematics. The laws of algebra like associative law, commutative law and distributive law were discovered empirically.

    Physics does not predict anything. It describes. Physics is as tautological as mathematics once it is expressed in the language of mathematics. It is a mathematical language of physics that describes our observations. And if we want to be quantitative we engage mathematics and what is physics without quantitative description? So physics must be mathematics. There is no other option.

    The abstract mathematics began to evolve and created new abstract structures but only small fraction of them have any usage in physics to describe some observations. There is a human process of pick and choose. The fact that some mathematical methods fit well in physical description is our choice. We reject abstractions that do not fit. Even on a very low level of high school physics a 2nd order polynomial gives you two solutions of which one you reject because it is not physical for some reason. You can derive Lorentz and Galileo transforms from group theory (first time it was done by Ignatowski in 1910) but it produces also a third solution which is nether Lorentz nor Galileo that is rejected because it did not find an application in physics.

    One can overdo mathematics and impose it on physics and get into a trouble. Pythagoras created this whole system of Universe and its God based on integer numbers and their ratios and that was supposed to describe everything. And then his student Hippasus proved that the square root of two, i.e, the length of the diagonal of a square with sides equal to one unit can't be expressed as a ratio of two integers. He discovered an irrational number. For this fact supposedly he was drowned by Pythagoras followers and the knowledge of his discovery was suppressed because the whole physics of Pythagoras based on his mathematics was shattered.

    Physics is very tautological. Pierre Duhem and Henri Poincare dealt with it arguing that any experiment that is constructed to prove or disprove something contains many hidden assumptions of existing theory and its mathematical structure so the outcome of being binary is predetermined, i.e, no new discovery could be possible from what already is implicitly imbedded in the structure of the theory that constructed the experiment.

    Duhem's name is given to the underdetermination or Duhem–Quine thesis, which holds that for any given set of observations there is an innumerably large number of explanations. It is, in essence, the same as Hume's critique of induction: all three variants point at the fact that empirical evidence cannot force the choice of a theory or its revision.

    Replies: @Epigon, @Dmitry

    they are actually that moronic to think there is a mystery in this question.

    There’s nothing surprising that physicists like any modern professionals, are often naive outside their daily work – so they might not know people have been discussing the same problems for thousands of years, as awareness of these discussions has no relation to their job performance.

    Awareness today that there were historical discussions of it, you will only have if your particular hobby is read those discussions.

    Mystery is not that the theories are tautological structures, or that we can make internally consistent (consistent according to “relations of ideas”) castles in our mind, and select one which matches descriptively physical results, and exclude another which does not match.

    Mystery is that world is regular enough, that at any level of description – of such theories – there will be at least one (but usually more than one, as you would know from history of science) which can descriptively match the results with the precision of a Swiss watch, and this will continue across time. And that you can zoom in and out at difference layers of description, select a theory, and it should be reducible to the lower layer of description by bridge laws.

    Again there’s no mystery in the use of mathematics in physics. There’s no mystery on the theory side. Mystery is not on “theory side”. The mystery is all on “world side” – that we live in world which is ordered, mechanical, predictable, in order words, conducive to theory.

    There’s also two parts of mystery here.

    1. World is behaving in uniform way. (which allows inductive inference)
    2. And world is logically regular.

    Where 2 is a real mystery or not, dependents on things like to what extent are analytic statements a tautological product of our mind (and dependent on your position on questions like analytic/synthetic distinction).

    But 1 is not a product of our mind. Regularity and precision of the world is an independent fact, which is separate from any observation of it.

    And of course that is a real mystery (although the popular modern conspiracy theories that we are living in a virtual reality simulation, are not performing anything better than Plato writing about a demiurge over 2400 years ago).

    The fact that some mathematical methods fit well in physical description is our choice.

    There’s a choice in selection of different models. The fact physical description can fit with models in general, or the model is constant from one moment to another, is the actual mystery – and you write this in the quoted text: “Hume’s critique of induction”.

    Hume showed for induction, we have to assume, unjustifiably, the uniformity of nature. But there is no way to justify that belief in continued uniformity of nature itself, except in circular way (by induction).

    Of course, our brain is “wired” to accept and infer on basis of uniformity of nature – but objectively, it is a form of “blind faith”.

    Duhem’s name is given to the underdetermination or Duhem–Quine thesis, which holds that for any given set of observations there is an innumerably large number of explanations.

    Of course, models are underdetermined, but the idea here is we can select the presently best one “holistically”, by looking at how it affects – in overt or implicit way – our other commitments.

    In this way, Quine rejects analytic-synthetic distinction. So for him, analytic statements are not tautologies, but are empirical statements close to the center of our present “total web of knowledge”, on which are a lot of other confirmed observations are supported.

    He originally thought we even can sometimes recode our “analytic” statements, if it empirically necessary to make our other beliefs work.

    I’ve been reading Quine’s book on language, which is very entertaining.
    https://www.unz.com/akarlin/powerful-bookshelf/?highlight=quine#comment-3026715

    Quine later writes some books on logic where he accepts some of it is indispensable.

    The strange result of this, was that Quine then infers mathematical/logical realism.
    https://www.iep.utm.edu/indimath/#H2

    So radical empiricism also led to Platonism, in the 20th century.

    • Replies: @utu
    @Dmitry

    Appreciate your comment. Thanks. I wish I had more time to study these issue and then discuss them. There are some questions which I find way too fanciful to be able wrap my mind around them. Like for instance: "why there is something rather than nothing" or "why world is regular enough".

    Replies: @DFH, @Anon

  722. @reiner Tor
    @songbird

    I think a sensible approach is a moratorium on the building of any new holocaust memorials. It happened three quarters of a century ago. Even in the former Eastern Bloc, we’ve now had several decades of democracy when we could decide for ourselves what to commemorate. In Hungary for example we’ve had twelve years of leftist governments, some of it during prosperous times. Between 2002 and 2006 all big cities except Debrecen had leftist (socialist or free democratic) mayors. Budapest had a liberal (Free Democrat) mayor 1990-2010, with a coalition of socialist and free democratic majority in the council. The vast majority of Budapest’s districts had a Free Democrat or Socialist mayor and council majority during the first two decades after 1990. Anything they didn’t feel the need to build a monument to then is certainly not very important to commemorate even from a leftist point of view. As time goes and the event fades away, the need could only decrease.

    Of course they are pushing for those monuments more and more. Precisely because the purpose is not to commemorate the victims (who have long been forgotten), but to push for their particular ideology.

    Replies: @German_reader, @Jaakko Raipala

    It seems to me that cuckservative and centrist governments are much more likely to build Holocaust memorials than leftists. Leftists usually want monuments to cult figures like Marx, Lenin, Mandela etc or some abstract monstrosities that portray the struggle of the proletariat or whatever. They occasionally do like an ugly Holocaust monument to desecrate a “right-wing” or “traditional” space, of course.

    I don’t think we had a single Holocaust memorial in Finland back when we were a Soviet vassal state with powerful socialist parties and commies. I don’t even remember reading about it in school history books – it probably was there but the Holocaust just wasn’t considered nowhere near as important by leftists as the atrocities of the Civil War. The most evil man in history wasn’t Hitler, it was either Nikolai II or general Mannerheim.

    Now that we are a EU/American vassal ruled by nominally “right-wing” parties there’s no escaping the constant Holocaust propaganda. It’s pretty damn offensive considering that there’s been absolutely zero persecution of Jews in this country, ever, and especially not during WWII when we really stood out as the Axis country where Jewish citizens weren’t treated any different from anyone else fighting for the good crusade against Bolshevism.

    Also another offensive thing is constant stuff about how we constantly hear that some Jew was killed in the camps because he wasn’t accepted into Finland – we were in the middle of a world war so we turned back nearly all foreigners, it would be beyond stupid to do anything less.

    • Replies: @songbird
    @Jaakko Raipala

    Interestingly, there aren't too many listed in Russia - just three. (Could be others, I guess). Two in Moscow and one in Rostov-on-the-Don. There is one in St. Petersburg - Florida, that is.

    Brazil has at least four.

    This is very curious to me. I wonder if it is because Russia had so many war dead, or Communism. Or the economy. I separate the two because I think organizational differences in politics are potentially quite significant.

    Surely, the number in Brazil is quite high for its location. Maybe, it has something to do with diversity making the ground fertile.

    It is a myth that there were no open doors. Trujillo, the dictator of the Dominican Republic offered about 100,000 visas to Jews. Very few immigrated. Fewer stayed.

  723. @Hyperborean
    @Hyperborean

    Kouprianova is a Duginist who supports Eurasian integration and reconciliation between the Red and White parts of Russian History (in Karlin’s terms "Soviet-Eurasianism"). Having too close ties with Central Asia is a poor idea but the most SJW belief she has is probably criticising Karlin's belief in HBD as autistic nonsense.

    I think Dmitry is confusing her with Spencer's new American girlfriend who is a real SJW.

    Replies: @Dmitry

    Sure I only follow the story on Karlin’s blog. But I’m sure she has been described as SJW here.

    As for race/nationality. The name is Russian, but people here say she is Georgian. From the face, she looks semi-caucasian type of Georgian. So it’s an equivalent of if the alleged leader of Russian nationalism, was having children with a Mexican woman with an American name.

    There’s nothing wrong with this, of course.

    But I can imagine American nationalists would be laughing about it as an irony, or something that was offensive to American nationalism, if Russian nationalists marry Mexicans.

    As for Georgians, they are a mix of different races living together, like so many other races (such as Mexicans even). Unlike Armenians, quite a proportion of Georgians are obviously look Europeans externally. Personally, Georgians I met who just look European.

    E.g. look at Georgian politicians or celebrities

    Some politician looks very Spanish or Italian to me

    https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10156621404003410&set=pb.612873409.-2207520000.1554245489.&type=3&theater

    Whereas Saakashvili is a pure caucasian race.

    https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10155737577258410&set=pb.612873409.-2207520000.1554245607.&type=3&theater

    Georgia’s Minister of Economics looks like some North African girls
    Some Georgian celebrities look half-European

    And then others look almost Spanish

    Maybe more “aristocratic” caucasian look

    https://www.instagram.com/p/BknLT8ql-Bs/

    Then the really more typical dark caucasian race Georgians (which are like Armenians and Turks).

    https://www.instagram.com/p/BvbSXy6l99J/

    And more typical dark Georgians, which look the identical as Armenians and Turks
    https://www.instagram.com/p/Bp9oEcIHdan/


    Richard Spencer wife – she’s somewhere in the “middle range” ?

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    @Dmitry

    Georgians are white to me, but a low grade variety of white like Albanians. In other words it is a bit shameful to marry one and not appropriate for a "white nationalist" of English heritage like Richard Spencer.

    She's also busted which doesn't help matters, though perhaps he was mesmerized by her ample bosom.

    Replies: @Dmitry

    , @songbird
    @Dmitry

    That is funny: Georgia is such an important country that I did not realize there was a Georgian script. That photo taken in Abu Dhabi - I thought I was looking at Arabic, at first.

    , @melanf
    @Dmitry


    So it’s an equivalent of if the alleged leader of Russian nationalism, was having children with a Mexican woman with an American name.
     
    I am not very interested in this topic, but I saw as at the forum of Russian nationalists discussed why Russian nationalists are usually (by origin) only partially Russian, and the real pureblood Russians are indifferent to Russian nationalism. At the same forum, it was noted that Russian nationalists unusually often have Tatar wives. One of the leaders of modern Russian nationalists (Matvey Tsen) is Korean.

    There are also more strange cases.
    This Murad Jabbarov (by descent - from some of the Muslim people of the Caucasus)

    https://cs.pikabu.ru/post_img/big/2013/10/15/6/1381822215_590939395.jpeg

    was convicted by the court for the propaganda of ideas of the superiority of the white Nordic race

    Replies: @Mikhail, @Mitleser

    , @melanf
    @Dmitry


    As for Georgians, they are a mix of different races living together
     
    Georgians are typical "kakvkaztsy" (I. e. roughly correspond to the appearance of the Sicilians).

    https://sputnik-georgia.com/images/22829/50/228295007.jpg

    http://nor.ge/wp-content/uploads/shkola-3.jpg

    Georgian "Nordic" TV presenters/Actresses/models have atypical appearance (and that's why they are chosen as celebrities)

    Replies: @Dmitry

    , @reiner Tor
    @Dmitry

    Vera Kobalia is just... wow.

  724. @Dmitry
    @Hyperborean

    Sure I only follow the story on Karlin's blog. But I'm sure she has been described as SJW here.

    As for race/nationality. The name is Russian, but people here say she is Georgian. From the face, she looks semi-caucasian type of Georgian. So it's an equivalent of if the alleged leader of Russian nationalism, was having children with a Mexican woman with an American name.

    There's nothing wrong with this, of course.

    But I can imagine American nationalists would be laughing about it as an irony, or something that was offensive to American nationalism, if Russian nationalists marry Mexicans.

    As for Georgians, they are a mix of different races living together, like so many other races (such as Mexicans even). Unlike Armenians, quite a proportion of Georgians are obviously look Europeans externally. Personally, Georgians I met who just look European.


    E.g. look at Georgian politicians or celebrities

    Some politician looks very Spanish or Italian to me

    https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10156621404003410&set=pb.612873409.-2207520000.1554245489.&type=3&theater

    Whereas Saakashvili is a pure caucasian race.

    https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10155737577258410&set=pb.612873409.-2207520000.1554245607.&type=3&theater

    Georgia's Minister of Economics looks like some North African girls
    https://i.imgur.com/PK0kTGV.jpg

    Some Georgian celebrities look half-European

    https://www.instagram.com/p/BsEZhklhlq8/

    And then others look almost Spanish

    https://www.instagram.com/p/BoJ4IfPnxNs/

    Maybe more "aristocratic" caucasian look

    https://www.instagram.com/p/BknLT8ql-Bs/

    Then the really more typical dark caucasian race Georgians (which are like Armenians and Turks).

    https://www.instagram.com/p/BvbSXy6l99J/


    And more typical dark Georgians, which look the identical as Armenians and Turks
    https://www.instagram.com/p/Bp9oEcIHdan/

    -
    Richard Spencer wife - she's somewhere in the "middle range" ?
    https://i.imgur.com/fykdC9e.jpg

    https://i.imgur.com/ZZsoXLo.jpg

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson, @songbird, @melanf, @melanf, @reiner Tor

    Georgians are white to me, but a low grade variety of white like Albanians. In other words it is a bit shameful to marry one and not appropriate for a “white nationalist” of English heritage like Richard Spencer.

    She’s also busted which doesn’t help matters, though perhaps he was mesmerized by her ample bosom.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @Thorfinnsson


    Georgians are white to me
     
    It's a nationality which includes some white people, and also brown people. It's just some racially different appearing people, within the same nationality (it's typical of nationalities who live on geographic borderzones between different races).

    I'm not sure what is the proportion of brown to white people there - Melanf thinks that they are mainly brown people.

    However, I've even met Georgians who look European and not caucasian (light hair, blue eyes, light skin), so I don't think it can be that unusual.


    low grade variety of white like Albanians. In other words it is a bit shameful to marry one
     
    There's good and bad people in most nationalities. There are Georgians far superior to anglosaxons (in whatever dimension you select), and vice versa.

    I'm not saying there's anything wrong with marrying Georgians.

    All I'm saying is that it's surely some kind of troll, when someone who is promoted by the media as the most famous caveman nationalist in America, is dating in the anti-nationalist way.

    If you don't control immigration policy, then marrying behaviour is the one of the only ways Americans would express such "caveman nationalism" views that can have any consequences in the real world.

    According to the media, this is the most important American nationalist. But the personal life behaviour is less nationalist than American liberals who are marrying white anglosaxons.

    Replies: @Hyperborean

  725. @Jaakko Raipala
    @reiner Tor

    It seems to me that cuckservative and centrist governments are much more likely to build Holocaust memorials than leftists. Leftists usually want monuments to cult figures like Marx, Lenin, Mandela etc or some abstract monstrosities that portray the struggle of the proletariat or whatever. They occasionally do like an ugly Holocaust monument to desecrate a "right-wing" or "traditional" space, of course.

    I don't think we had a single Holocaust memorial in Finland back when we were a Soviet vassal state with powerful socialist parties and commies. I don't even remember reading about it in school history books - it probably was there but the Holocaust just wasn't considered nowhere near as important by leftists as the atrocities of the Civil War. The most evil man in history wasn't Hitler, it was either Nikolai II or general Mannerheim.

    Now that we are a EU/American vassal ruled by nominally "right-wing" parties there's no escaping the constant Holocaust propaganda. It's pretty damn offensive considering that there's been absolutely zero persecution of Jews in this country, ever, and especially not during WWII when we really stood out as the Axis country where Jewish citizens weren't treated any different from anyone else fighting for the good crusade against Bolshevism.

    Also another offensive thing is constant stuff about how we constantly hear that some Jew was killed in the camps because he wasn't accepted into Finland - we were in the middle of a world war so we turned back nearly all foreigners, it would be beyond stupid to do anything less.

    Replies: @songbird

    Interestingly, there aren’t too many listed in Russia – just three. (Could be others, I guess). Two in Moscow and one in Rostov-on-the-Don. There is one in St. Petersburg – Florida, that is.

    Brazil has at least four.

    This is very curious to me. I wonder if it is because Russia had so many war dead, or Communism. Or the economy. I separate the two because I think organizational differences in politics are potentially quite significant.

    Surely, the number in Brazil is quite high for its location. Maybe, it has something to do with diversity making the ground fertile.

    It is a myth that there were no open doors. Trujillo, the dictator of the Dominican Republic offered about 100,000 visas to Jews. Very few immigrated. Fewer stayed.

  726. @Dmitry
    @Hyperborean

    Sure I only follow the story on Karlin's blog. But I'm sure she has been described as SJW here.

    As for race/nationality. The name is Russian, but people here say she is Georgian. From the face, she looks semi-caucasian type of Georgian. So it's an equivalent of if the alleged leader of Russian nationalism, was having children with a Mexican woman with an American name.

    There's nothing wrong with this, of course.

    But I can imagine American nationalists would be laughing about it as an irony, or something that was offensive to American nationalism, if Russian nationalists marry Mexicans.

    As for Georgians, they are a mix of different races living together, like so many other races (such as Mexicans even). Unlike Armenians, quite a proportion of Georgians are obviously look Europeans externally. Personally, Georgians I met who just look European.


    E.g. look at Georgian politicians or celebrities

    Some politician looks very Spanish or Italian to me

    https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10156621404003410&set=pb.612873409.-2207520000.1554245489.&type=3&theater

    Whereas Saakashvili is a pure caucasian race.

    https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10155737577258410&set=pb.612873409.-2207520000.1554245607.&type=3&theater

    Georgia's Minister of Economics looks like some North African girls
    https://i.imgur.com/PK0kTGV.jpg

    Some Georgian celebrities look half-European

    https://www.instagram.com/p/BsEZhklhlq8/

    And then others look almost Spanish

    https://www.instagram.com/p/BoJ4IfPnxNs/

    Maybe more "aristocratic" caucasian look

    https://www.instagram.com/p/BknLT8ql-Bs/

    Then the really more typical dark caucasian race Georgians (which are like Armenians and Turks).

    https://www.instagram.com/p/BvbSXy6l99J/


    And more typical dark Georgians, which look the identical as Armenians and Turks
    https://www.instagram.com/p/Bp9oEcIHdan/

    -
    Richard Spencer wife - she's somewhere in the "middle range" ?
    https://i.imgur.com/fykdC9e.jpg

    https://i.imgur.com/ZZsoXLo.jpg

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson, @songbird, @melanf, @melanf, @reiner Tor

    That is funny: Georgia is such an important country that I did not realize there was a Georgian script. That photo taken in Abu Dhabi – I thought I was looking at Arabic, at first.

  727. @Dmitry
    @Hyperborean

    Sure I only follow the story on Karlin's blog. But I'm sure she has been described as SJW here.

    As for race/nationality. The name is Russian, but people here say she is Georgian. From the face, she looks semi-caucasian type of Georgian. So it's an equivalent of if the alleged leader of Russian nationalism, was having children with a Mexican woman with an American name.

    There's nothing wrong with this, of course.

    But I can imagine American nationalists would be laughing about it as an irony, or something that was offensive to American nationalism, if Russian nationalists marry Mexicans.

    As for Georgians, they are a mix of different races living together, like so many other races (such as Mexicans even). Unlike Armenians, quite a proportion of Georgians are obviously look Europeans externally. Personally, Georgians I met who just look European.


    E.g. look at Georgian politicians or celebrities

    Some politician looks very Spanish or Italian to me

    https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10156621404003410&set=pb.612873409.-2207520000.1554245489.&type=3&theater

    Whereas Saakashvili is a pure caucasian race.

    https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10155737577258410&set=pb.612873409.-2207520000.1554245607.&type=3&theater

    Georgia's Minister of Economics looks like some North African girls
    https://i.imgur.com/PK0kTGV.jpg

    Some Georgian celebrities look half-European

    https://www.instagram.com/p/BsEZhklhlq8/

    And then others look almost Spanish

    https://www.instagram.com/p/BoJ4IfPnxNs/

    Maybe more "aristocratic" caucasian look

    https://www.instagram.com/p/BknLT8ql-Bs/

    Then the really more typical dark caucasian race Georgians (which are like Armenians and Turks).

    https://www.instagram.com/p/BvbSXy6l99J/


    And more typical dark Georgians, which look the identical as Armenians and Turks
    https://www.instagram.com/p/Bp9oEcIHdan/

    -
    Richard Spencer wife - she's somewhere in the "middle range" ?
    https://i.imgur.com/fykdC9e.jpg

    https://i.imgur.com/ZZsoXLo.jpg

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson, @songbird, @melanf, @melanf, @reiner Tor

    So it’s an equivalent of if the alleged leader of Russian nationalism, was having children with a Mexican woman with an American name.

    I am not very interested in this topic, but I saw as at the forum of Russian nationalists discussed why Russian nationalists are usually (by origin) only partially Russian, and the real pureblood Russians are indifferent to Russian nationalism. At the same forum, it was noted that Russian nationalists unusually often have Tatar wives. One of the leaders of modern Russian nationalists (Matvey Tsen) is Korean.

    There are also more strange cases.
    This Murad Jabbarov (by descent – from some of the Muslim people of the Caucasus)

    was convicted by the court for the propaganda of ideas of the superiority of the white Nordic race

    • Replies: @Mikhail
    @melanf

    Reminded of the svidos who highlight that Bogolyubsky's mother was a non-Slav with a background from the east.

    Kornilov also comes to mind.

    , @Mitleser
    @melanf


    I am not very interested in this topic, but I saw as at the forum of Russian nationalists discussed why Russian nationalists are usually (by origin) only partially Russian, and the real pureblood Russians are indifferent to Russian nationalism.
     
    So, basically "when you are a kid and you are raised in an all-Russian environment, nobody really talks to you about your identity. You just are."

    https://twitter.com/NewAtlantisSun/status/1113215968602402817

  728. @Dmitry
    @Hyperborean

    Sure I only follow the story on Karlin's blog. But I'm sure she has been described as SJW here.

    As for race/nationality. The name is Russian, but people here say she is Georgian. From the face, she looks semi-caucasian type of Georgian. So it's an equivalent of if the alleged leader of Russian nationalism, was having children with a Mexican woman with an American name.

    There's nothing wrong with this, of course.

    But I can imagine American nationalists would be laughing about it as an irony, or something that was offensive to American nationalism, if Russian nationalists marry Mexicans.

    As for Georgians, they are a mix of different races living together, like so many other races (such as Mexicans even). Unlike Armenians, quite a proportion of Georgians are obviously look Europeans externally. Personally, Georgians I met who just look European.


    E.g. look at Georgian politicians or celebrities

    Some politician looks very Spanish or Italian to me

    https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10156621404003410&set=pb.612873409.-2207520000.1554245489.&type=3&theater

    Whereas Saakashvili is a pure caucasian race.

    https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10155737577258410&set=pb.612873409.-2207520000.1554245607.&type=3&theater

    Georgia's Minister of Economics looks like some North African girls
    https://i.imgur.com/PK0kTGV.jpg

    Some Georgian celebrities look half-European

    https://www.instagram.com/p/BsEZhklhlq8/

    And then others look almost Spanish

    https://www.instagram.com/p/BoJ4IfPnxNs/

    Maybe more "aristocratic" caucasian look

    https://www.instagram.com/p/BknLT8ql-Bs/

    Then the really more typical dark caucasian race Georgians (which are like Armenians and Turks).

    https://www.instagram.com/p/BvbSXy6l99J/


    And more typical dark Georgians, which look the identical as Armenians and Turks
    https://www.instagram.com/p/Bp9oEcIHdan/

    -
    Richard Spencer wife - she's somewhere in the "middle range" ?
    https://i.imgur.com/fykdC9e.jpg

    https://i.imgur.com/ZZsoXLo.jpg

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson, @songbird, @melanf, @melanf, @reiner Tor

    As for Georgians, they are a mix of different races living together

    Georgians are typical “kakvkaztsy” (I. e. roughly correspond to the appearance of the Sicilians).

    Georgian “Nordic” TV presenters/Actresses/models have atypical appearance (and that’s why they are chosen as celebrities)

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @melanf


    Georgian “Nordic” TV presenters/Actresses/models have atypical appearance
     
    I've met two Georgians with completely light appearance, not looking like typical caucasians. But I have no idea how common or atypical that is in Georgia as I have not visited the country.
  729. Some Police State & Sovok Propaganda

    Concerns why the Bloomberg/JRL promoted Leonid Bershidsky is full of it, when he says that his views on Crimea (specifically, his opposition to Crimea’s reunification with Russia) forced him to leave Russia:

    https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2019/04/03/russia-and-ukraine-fight-but-their-people-seek-reconciliation-a65065

    https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2019/04/02/lets-talk-about-ukraine-a65057

    https://russia-insider.com/en/culture/russian-universities-are-battleground-russias-future/ri9117

    Ongoing propaganda from John Batchelor and Stephen Cohen:

    https://audioboom.com/posts/7221204-tales-of-the-new-cold-war-1-of-2-accusing-russia-of-attacking-america-2016-stephen-f-cohen

    Note what’s said in the opening discussion versus the posted (at the link) photo and written characterization of the US force being attacked.

    Make no mistake about it, the Russian Civil War was very much a civil war involving foreign intervention of varying types to each of the main combatants (Red and Whites), whose behavior included atrocities – something that has been evident with civil wars in other countries.

    Contrary to John Batchelor, Cold War era Russian history classes in the US frequently enough had politically left of center professors telling only one side of that story – which doesn’t make for good journalism and history.

  730. @melanf
    @Dmitry


    So it’s an equivalent of if the alleged leader of Russian nationalism, was having children with a Mexican woman with an American name.
     
    I am not very interested in this topic, but I saw as at the forum of Russian nationalists discussed why Russian nationalists are usually (by origin) only partially Russian, and the real pureblood Russians are indifferent to Russian nationalism. At the same forum, it was noted that Russian nationalists unusually often have Tatar wives. One of the leaders of modern Russian nationalists (Matvey Tsen) is Korean.

    There are also more strange cases.
    This Murad Jabbarov (by descent - from some of the Muslim people of the Caucasus)

    https://cs.pikabu.ru/post_img/big/2013/10/15/6/1381822215_590939395.jpeg

    was convicted by the court for the propaganda of ideas of the superiority of the white Nordic race

    Replies: @Mikhail, @Mitleser

    Reminded of the svidos who highlight that Bogolyubsky’s mother was a non-Slav with a background from the east.

    Kornilov also comes to mind.

  731. @melanf
    @Dmitry


    So it’s an equivalent of if the alleged leader of Russian nationalism, was having children with a Mexican woman with an American name.
     
    I am not very interested in this topic, but I saw as at the forum of Russian nationalists discussed why Russian nationalists are usually (by origin) only partially Russian, and the real pureblood Russians are indifferent to Russian nationalism. At the same forum, it was noted that Russian nationalists unusually often have Tatar wives. One of the leaders of modern Russian nationalists (Matvey Tsen) is Korean.

    There are also more strange cases.
    This Murad Jabbarov (by descent - from some of the Muslim people of the Caucasus)

    https://cs.pikabu.ru/post_img/big/2013/10/15/6/1381822215_590939395.jpeg

    was convicted by the court for the propaganda of ideas of the superiority of the white Nordic race

    Replies: @Mikhail, @Mitleser

    I am not very interested in this topic, but I saw as at the forum of Russian nationalists discussed why Russian nationalists are usually (by origin) only partially Russian, and the real pureblood Russians are indifferent to Russian nationalism.

    So, basically “when you are a kid and you are raised in an all-Russian environment, nobody really talks to you about your identity. You just are.”

  732. @Dmitry
    @utu


    they are actually that moronic to think there is a mystery in this question.
     
    There's nothing surprising that physicists like any modern professionals, are often naive outside their daily work - so they might not know people have been discussing the same problems for thousands of years, as awareness of these discussions has no relation to their job performance.

    Awareness today that there were historical discussions of it, you will only have if your particular hobby is read those discussions.

    Mystery is not that the theories are tautological structures, or that we can make internally consistent (consistent according to "relations of ideas") castles in our mind, and select one which matches descriptively physical results, and exclude another which does not match.

    Mystery is that world is regular enough, that at any level of description - of such theories - there will be at least one (but usually more than one, as you would know from history of science) which can descriptively match the results with the precision of a Swiss watch, and this will continue across time. And that you can zoom in and out at difference layers of description, select a theory, and it should be reducible to the lower layer of description by bridge laws.

    Again there's no mystery in the use of mathematics in physics. There's no mystery on the theory side. Mystery is not on "theory side". The mystery is all on "world side" - that we live in world which is ordered, mechanical, predictable, in order words, conducive to theory.

    There's also two parts of mystery here.

    1. World is behaving in uniform way. (which allows inductive inference)
    2. And world is logically regular.

    Where 2 is a real mystery or not, dependents on things like to what extent are analytic statements a tautological product of our mind (and dependent on your position on questions like analytic/synthetic distinction).

    But 1 is not a product of our mind. Regularity and precision of the world is an independent fact, which is separate from any observation of it.

    And of course that is a real mystery (although the popular modern conspiracy theories that we are living in a virtual reality simulation, are not performing anything better than Plato writing about a demiurge over 2400 years ago).


    The fact that some mathematical methods fit well in physical description is our choice.
     
    There's a choice in selection of different models. The fact physical description can fit with models in general, or the model is constant from one moment to another, is the actual mystery - and you write this in the quoted text: "Hume’s critique of induction".

    Hume showed for induction, we have to assume, unjustifiably, the uniformity of nature. But there is no way to justify that belief in continued uniformity of nature itself, except in circular way (by induction).

    Of course, our brain is "wired" to accept and infer on basis of uniformity of nature - but objectively, it is a form of "blind faith".


    Duhem’s name is given to the underdetermination or Duhem–Quine thesis, which holds that for any given set of observations there is an innumerably large number of explanations.
     
    Of course, models are underdetermined, but the idea here is we can select the presently best one "holistically", by looking at how it affects - in overt or implicit way - our other commitments.

    In this way, Quine rejects analytic-synthetic distinction. So for him, analytic statements are not tautologies, but are empirical statements close to the center of our present "total web of knowledge", on which are a lot of other confirmed observations are supported.

    He originally thought we even can sometimes recode our "analytic" statements, if it empirically necessary to make our other beliefs work.

    I've been reading Quine's book on language, which is very entertaining.
    https://www.unz.com/akarlin/powerful-bookshelf/?highlight=quine#comment-3026715

    Quine later writes some books on logic where he accepts some of it is indispensable.

    The strange result of this, was that Quine then infers mathematical/logical realism.
    https://www.iep.utm.edu/indimath/#H2

    So radical empiricism also led to Platonism, in the 20th century.

    Replies: @utu

    Appreciate your comment. Thanks. I wish I had more time to study these issue and then discuss them. There are some questions which I find way too fanciful to be able wrap my mind around them. Like for instance: “why there is something rather than nothing” or “why world is regular enough”.

    • Replies: @DFH
    @utu


    Like for instance: “why there is something rather than nothing” or “why world is regular enough”.

     

    God is the answer for both (especially the latter)

    https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/teleological-arguments/#CosFinTun

    Replies: @Dmitry

    , @Anon
    @utu

    @ why something rather than nothing

    A) A complex things that works (the Universe but even man) suggests not only a creator but an intention for the created.
    B) such a Creator has no need for the created, and this suggests the supernatural essence: Love and Grace.

    More than for logical inquiry, it should properly be the subject for meditative prayer.

    “I believe in order to understand; I understand in order to better believe.”

  733. @utu
    @Dmitry

    Appreciate your comment. Thanks. I wish I had more time to study these issue and then discuss them. There are some questions which I find way too fanciful to be able wrap my mind around them. Like for instance: "why there is something rather than nothing" or "why world is regular enough".

    Replies: @DFH, @Anon

    Like for instance: “why there is something rather than nothing” or “why world is regular enough”.

    God is the answer for both (especially the latter)

    https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/teleological-arguments/#CosFinTun

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @DFH

    Just as with a hypothesis we live in virtual reality simulation, "God" - in sense of some separate "creator" - is not an "answer", but more a way to push away the mystery of what we actually know, and project a fantasy space to obscure the mystery.

    The problem is, you'll then have all exactly the same questions in the next layer of reality you have fantasized to try to explain the layer of reality that we actually experience. But you have an ignobility of having projected an additional layer, which you know nothing about, and which was created by your imagination.

    God could be a real concept, but the layer of reality we experience would have to be part of (and probably the essence) of whatever we refer to as "God". Otherwise, all you can say, is you know nothing of God. Or God, refers to whatever you don't know.


    https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/teleological-arguments/#CosFinTun
     
    The teleological arguments underdetermine any thing we will speculate to explain them. If you want to speculate, and then we would at least select our speculations based on explanatory power, rather than childish wishes - of course, the conspiracy theory that we live in a virtual reality simulation, has at least a bit more explanatory power than conventional Western theology. (But it's still a silly speculation).

    For people, who in their childhood were habituated in Western mythologies, teleology could alternatively support some speculations about demiurges. But the teleological views could also support a Buddhist model, where there are endless layers of virtual reality simulation being generated by our karma.

    There is something childish about teleological arguments: people are simply using their imaginations and projecting intentions onto things they don't understand, in order to try to weakly avoid accepting how little they know, and how stupid we all actually are..

    I would add theories such as "cosmological natural selection" are equally speculations, but they are at least trying to introduce less fantasy elements.

    Plato was not above this kind of game, and he wrote such speculations in Timaeus - but he fortunately recognizes Socrates is too noble for this game, and places those speculations in mouth of a minor Pythagorean philosopher.

  734. @utu
    @reiner Tor

    GPS can work w/o STR and GTR pretty well. Each satellite out of 24 or so is tracked constantly and its clocks and positions are recalibrated by the ground tracking stations once every two hours or so, iirc. There was even one tracking station in Russia which Russians as a retaliation after the 2014 sanctions shut down.

    You do not expect that the engineers that designed the GPS system would believe and rely on the truth of theoretical relativistic formulas because the physicists told them so. They built up a back up of tracking and recalibration to take care of all possible drifts and instabilities (including relativistic ones) in satellite clocks.

    Furthermore you can determine you position w/o having your own clock. All you need are positions of satellites that come in their signals and the times they sent the signals which they also send. And as long as their clocks are synchronized with each other but not necessarily with the Earth (which is irrelevant here because we assumed you have no clock) you will get a good position. You need 4 satellites to do it w/o a clock but 3 satellites if you have a clock synchronized with satellites' clocks.

    Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that GPS does not have relativistic corrections but I am saying that even if the relativistic corrections were not plugged in explicitly in the system, the system would still worked because it was so designed.

    We see many articles popping up hailing Einstein for giving us GPS that w/o him we would not have such a wonderful tool in our iPhones and everybody would be lost but this is just a part of Einstein's incessant apotheosis.

    Otoh, if we did not know of relativistic time changes theories the GPS system should lead us to discovery of it by analyzing the corrections that were added by the tracking system. Strangely I haven't seen many papers there that would use GPS to corroborate the validity of the relativistic corrections. Perhaps because there is such a pileup of corrections on top of each other that nobody anymore can figure out what is the raw signal.

    Replies: @Denis

    I’m pretty much a layman in mathematics and physics, so I guess it’s not worth much coming from me, but these were some great comments utu.

    • Replies: @utu
    @Denis

    Thank you.

    , @AP
    @Denis

    We agree on something.

  735. @Denis
    @utu

    I'm pretty much a layman in mathematics and physics, so I guess it's not worth much coming from me, but these were some great comments utu.

    Replies: @utu, @AP

    Thank you.

  736. German_reader says:

    Brenton Tarrant seems to have made donations to several identitarian organisations in Europe, possibly the French Génération Identitaire among them:
    https://derstandard.at/2000100745249/Terrorist-von-Christchurch-setzte-vier-Spenden-an-Identitaere-Organisationen-in

    Meanwhile in Austria “based” Chancellor Kurz is using the entire affair as a pretext to force the FPÖ to distance themselves from the identitarians (whom Kurz has called “disgusting” and apparently would like to ban):
    https://www.derstandard.de/story/2000100770184/kanzler-kurz-findet-identitaere-widerlich

    And the FPÖ under Strache seems to be going along.

    • Replies: @songbird
    @German_reader

    I heard someone say that the reason Austria didn't sign the UN global migration pact was down to Sellner himself. That his message about it got enough public exposure through social media, and enough people organized to send a message to Austrian politicians.

    But I wonder if they have already taken down some of these social media pages.

    Replies: @German_reader

  737. @German_reader
    Brenton Tarrant seems to have made donations to several identitarian organisations in Europe, possibly the French Génération Identitaire among them:
    https://derstandard.at/2000100745249/Terrorist-von-Christchurch-setzte-vier-Spenden-an-Identitaere-Organisationen-in

    Meanwhile in Austria "based" Chancellor Kurz is using the entire affair as a pretext to force the FPÖ to distance themselves from the identitarians (whom Kurz has called "disgusting" and apparently would like to ban):
    https://www.derstandard.de/story/2000100770184/kanzler-kurz-findet-identitaere-widerlich

    And the FPÖ under Strache seems to be going along.

    Replies: @songbird

    I heard someone say that the reason Austria didn’t sign the UN global migration pact was down to Sellner himself. That his message about it got enough public exposure through social media, and enough people organized to send a message to Austrian politicians.

    But I wonder if they have already taken down some of these social media pages.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @songbird


    I heard someone say that the reason Austria didn’t sign the UN global migration pact was down to Sellner himself.
     
    He did run a pretty good social media campaign against the pact, so there's probably at least some truth to that.
    It's clear however that left-wing prosecutors are intent on bringing him and the other Austrian identitarians down (even though the identitarians recently won a trial in which all charges against them were dismissed).
    The most serious lesson of this imo is that some slimy centrist like Kurz who claims to have gotten it about immigration should never be trusted. But apparently the right-wing FPÖ can't be trusted either...there are tweets from Strache dating back to 2016 in which he defended the identitarians as a non-violent protest movement with legitimate concerns. Now he's going along with the witch-hunt because of the massacre committed by an Australian loner on the other side of the globe.
  738. German_reader says:
    @songbird
    @German_reader

    I heard someone say that the reason Austria didn't sign the UN global migration pact was down to Sellner himself. That his message about it got enough public exposure through social media, and enough people organized to send a message to Austrian politicians.

    But I wonder if they have already taken down some of these social media pages.

    Replies: @German_reader

    I heard someone say that the reason Austria didn’t sign the UN global migration pact was down to Sellner himself.

    He did run a pretty good social media campaign against the pact, so there’s probably at least some truth to that.
    It’s clear however that left-wing prosecutors are intent on bringing him and the other Austrian identitarians down (even though the identitarians recently won a trial in which all charges against them were dismissed).
    The most serious lesson of this imo is that some slimy centrist like Kurz who claims to have gotten it about immigration should never be trusted. But apparently the right-wing FPÖ can’t be trusted either…there are tweets from Strache dating back to 2016 in which he defended the identitarians as a non-violent protest movement with legitimate concerns. Now he’s going along with the witch-hunt because of the massacre committed by an Australian loner on the other side of the globe.

    • Agree: reiner Tor
  739. Anon[192] • Disclaimer says:
    @utu
    @Dmitry

    Appreciate your comment. Thanks. I wish I had more time to study these issue and then discuss them. There are some questions which I find way too fanciful to be able wrap my mind around them. Like for instance: "why there is something rather than nothing" or "why world is regular enough".

    Replies: @DFH, @Anon

    @ why something rather than nothing

    A) A complex things that works (the Universe but even man) suggests not only a creator but an intention for the created.
    B) such a Creator has no need for the created, and this suggests the supernatural essence: Love and Grace.

    More than for logical inquiry, it should properly be the subject for meditative prayer.

    “I believe in order to understand; I understand in order to better believe.”

  740. @Denis
    @utu

    I'm pretty much a layman in mathematics and physics, so I guess it's not worth much coming from me, but these were some great comments utu.

    Replies: @utu, @AP

    We agree on something.

  741. • Replies: @songbird
    @Mitleser

    2100 - seems rather optimistic, given Africa's population trends. I wonder if anyone made these sort of pictures in 1919 in Detroit. Of course, only about 6 million Africans moved during the Great Migration. Frankfurt will realistically have at least 300x that number to draw on.

    But, I like the way these students are thinking. I guess I was really misinformed about these "green plans."

  742. @Thorfinnsson
    @Epigon

    Beijing was interested in Greek port facilities and related infrastructure. This has since been revived--the Piraeus port authority is now owned by COSCO.

    As for Moscow, I can't find a reason why Moscow should assist Greece financially. I suppose there's always South Stream, and who knows what Tsipras was pitching. In any case Putin told him that he had to go through Berlin.

    Moscow also pours money into black holes on occasion. Rosneft has poured billions into Venezuela it will never see again.

    Anyhow the original point here is that the Germans are the ones who wrecked the Eurozone, not Washington.

    Replies: @Mitleser

    Beijing was interested in Greek port facilities and related infrastructure. This has since been revived–the Piraeus port authority is now owned by COSCO.

    There is still time to sabotage COSCO’s operations.

  743. @Mitleser
    Future German aesthetics: Climatopia

    SWPL: Slum edition?

    https://www.fnp.de/bilder/2019/04/02/12076423/724297138-fff_rebe1-2DiHLxEJf1.jpg
    https://www.fnp.de/frankfurt/frankfurt-hessen-koennte-rebstock-areal-neuer-stadtteil-aussehen-12076423.html

    Replies: @songbird

    2100 – seems rather optimistic, given Africa’s population trends. I wonder if anyone made these sort of pictures in 1919 in Detroit. Of course, only about 6 million Africans moved during the Great Migration. Frankfurt will realistically have at least 300x that number to draw on.

    But, I like the way these students are thinking. I guess I was really misinformed about these “green plans.”

  744. @DFH
    @utu


    Like for instance: “why there is something rather than nothing” or “why world is regular enough”.

     

    God is the answer for both (especially the latter)

    https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/teleological-arguments/#CosFinTun

    Replies: @Dmitry

    Just as with a hypothesis we live in virtual reality simulation, “God” – in sense of some separate “creator” – is not an “answer”, but more a way to push away the mystery of what we actually know, and project a fantasy space to obscure the mystery.

    The problem is, you’ll then have all exactly the same questions in the next layer of reality you have fantasized to try to explain the layer of reality that we actually experience. But you have an ignobility of having projected an additional layer, which you know nothing about, and which was created by your imagination.

    God could be a real concept, but the layer of reality we experience would have to be part of (and probably the essence) of whatever we refer to as “God”. Otherwise, all you can say, is you know nothing of God. Or God, refers to whatever you don’t know.

    https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/teleological-arguments/#CosFinTun

    The teleological arguments underdetermine any thing we will speculate to explain them. If you want to speculate, and then we would at least select our speculations based on explanatory power, rather than childish wishes – of course, the conspiracy theory that we live in a virtual reality simulation, has at least a bit more explanatory power than conventional Western theology. (But it’s still a silly speculation).

    For people, who in their childhood were habituated in Western mythologies, teleology could alternatively support some speculations about demiurges. But the teleological views could also support a Buddhist model, where there are endless layers of virtual reality simulation being generated by our karma.

    There is something childish about teleological arguments: people are simply using their imaginations and projecting intentions onto things they don’t understand, in order to try to weakly avoid accepting how little they know, and how stupid we all actually are..

    I would add theories such as “cosmological natural selection” are equally speculations, but they are at least trying to introduce less fantasy elements.

    Plato was not above this kind of game, and he wrote such speculations in Timaeus – but he fortunately recognizes Socrates is too noble for this game, and places those speculations in mouth of a minor Pythagorean philosopher.

  745. @Thorfinnsson
    @Dmitry

    Georgians are white to me, but a low grade variety of white like Albanians. In other words it is a bit shameful to marry one and not appropriate for a "white nationalist" of English heritage like Richard Spencer.

    She's also busted which doesn't help matters, though perhaps he was mesmerized by her ample bosom.

    Replies: @Dmitry

    Georgians are white to me

    It’s a nationality which includes some white people, and also brown people. It’s just some racially different appearing people, within the same nationality (it’s typical of nationalities who live on geographic borderzones between different races).

    I’m not sure what is the proportion of brown to white people there – Melanf thinks that they are mainly brown people.

    However, I’ve even met Georgians who look European and not caucasian (light hair, blue eyes, light skin), so I don’t think it can be that unusual.

    low grade variety of white like Albanians. In other words it is a bit shameful to marry one

    There’s good and bad people in most nationalities. There are Georgians far superior to anglosaxons (in whatever dimension you select), and vice versa.

    I’m not saying there’s anything wrong with marrying Georgians.

    All I’m saying is that it’s surely some kind of troll, when someone who is promoted by the media as the most famous caveman nationalist in America, is dating in the anti-nationalist way.

    If you don’t control immigration policy, then marrying behaviour is the one of the only ways Americans would express such “caveman nationalism” views that can have any consequences in the real world.

    According to the media, this is the most important American nationalist. But the personal life behaviour is less nationalist than American liberals who are marrying white anglosaxons.

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
    @Dmitry


    According to the media, this is the most important American nationalist. But the personal life behaviour is less nationalist than American liberals who are marrying white anglosaxons.
     
    Compared to East Asian women ('practically a rite of passage' for Alt-right men) a quarter Georgian* is not so odd.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/06/opinion/sunday/alt-right-asian-fetish.html

    But there is a simpler explanation. Kouprianova, possessing similar interests, is probably one of the few women who actually find Spencer's monologues on Spengler and Heidegger interesting. However, I think Spencer's current girlfriend is a crazy white Anglo-Saxon liberal (who apparently leads him around on a physical leash?).

    *Although to be whimsical:

    https://www.counter-currents.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/VettingPart2_Flowchart.jpg

    Replies: @songbird, @Dmitry

  746. @melanf
    @Dmitry


    As for Georgians, they are a mix of different races living together
     
    Georgians are typical "kakvkaztsy" (I. e. roughly correspond to the appearance of the Sicilians).

    https://sputnik-georgia.com/images/22829/50/228295007.jpg

    http://nor.ge/wp-content/uploads/shkola-3.jpg

    Georgian "Nordic" TV presenters/Actresses/models have atypical appearance (and that's why they are chosen as celebrities)

    Replies: @Dmitry

    Georgian “Nordic” TV presenters/Actresses/models have atypical appearance

    I’ve met two Georgians with completely light appearance, not looking like typical caucasians. But I have no idea how common or atypical that is in Georgia as I have not visited the country.

  747. Priss Factor [AKA "Asagirian"] says: • Website

    PC is like a drug.

    https://quillette.com/2018/07/14/i-was-the-mob-until-the-mob-came-for-me/

    How did I become that person(a SJW)? It happened because it was exhilarating. Every time I would call someone racist or sexist, I would get a rush. That rush would then be reaffirmed and sustained by the stars, hearts, and thumbs-up that constitute the nickels and dimes of social media validation. The people giving me these stars, hearts, and thumbs-up were engaging in their own cynical game: A fear of being targeted by the mob induces us to signal publicly that we are part of it.

    • Replies: @Thulean Friend
    @Priss Factor

    That is a terrible analysis. It's not far from the "they only do it for money" cope argument that you hear from boomers and/or cuckservatives. Both arguments are designed to distract from the fact that there is real, underlying malice in what's happening to the West and it's coming from the inside by trivialising and/or personalising it.

    Sometimes it's hard to know if the people pushing this kind of 'analysis' are just stupid or malicious themselves, frankly. In case of them being malicious, because they want people to think that there are more shallow/pedestrian reasons for what's happening now.

    By shifting it to money or 'getting a rush', you're blocking the avenues to deeper introspection. Quillette and sites like that are more dangerous than even leftist sites because they act as a narrow vessel of pseudo-resistance to the current dogma without ever fundamentally challening its core assumptions (such as opposition to white ethnic organising), while dressing it in indivualist arguments. Jordan Peterson on steroids.

  748. @Dmitry
    @Thorfinnsson


    Georgians are white to me
     
    It's a nationality which includes some white people, and also brown people. It's just some racially different appearing people, within the same nationality (it's typical of nationalities who live on geographic borderzones between different races).

    I'm not sure what is the proportion of brown to white people there - Melanf thinks that they are mainly brown people.

    However, I've even met Georgians who look European and not caucasian (light hair, blue eyes, light skin), so I don't think it can be that unusual.


    low grade variety of white like Albanians. In other words it is a bit shameful to marry one
     
    There's good and bad people in most nationalities. There are Georgians far superior to anglosaxons (in whatever dimension you select), and vice versa.

    I'm not saying there's anything wrong with marrying Georgians.

    All I'm saying is that it's surely some kind of troll, when someone who is promoted by the media as the most famous caveman nationalist in America, is dating in the anti-nationalist way.

    If you don't control immigration policy, then marrying behaviour is the one of the only ways Americans would express such "caveman nationalism" views that can have any consequences in the real world.

    According to the media, this is the most important American nationalist. But the personal life behaviour is less nationalist than American liberals who are marrying white anglosaxons.

    Replies: @Hyperborean

    According to the media, this is the most important American nationalist. But the personal life behaviour is less nationalist than American liberals who are marrying white anglosaxons.

    Compared to East Asian women (‘practically a rite of passage’ for Alt-right men) a quarter Georgian* is not so odd.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/06/opinion/sunday/alt-right-asian-fetish.html

    But there is a simpler explanation. Kouprianova, possessing similar interests, is probably one of the few women who actually find Spencer’s monologues on Spengler and Heidegger interesting. However, I think Spencer’s current girlfriend is a crazy white Anglo-Saxon liberal (who apparently leads him around on a physical leash?).

    *Although to be whimsical:

    • Replies: @songbird
    @Hyperborean

    There is the idea that the greater the genetic distance, the greater the chance of psychological problems, due to mismatch among the very large number of genes expressed in the brain. Under that consideration, Georgian might be better.

    Though, I have known a number of Asian happas, and they all seemed fairly normal. I have never known a Georgian (at least from the country), so my subconscious thoughts may be colored by the Schwarzenegger movie "Red Heat."

    I like the flag, still I must say the country is suspiciously close to Chechnya. On that basis, I would probably prefer a quarter Asian.

    , @Dmitry
    @Hyperborean

    Georgians are just quite analogous to Mexicans, racially and culturally - in relation to America and Russia.

    American media was claiming (of course inventing) an idea that Spencer is the most important American nationalist, who is somehow related to Trump's nationalism. So at least from Russia, it is ironic, as the "nationalism" of Trump's election was all from his rhetoric against Mexican immigration.

    Lol I'm not associating Georgians with Mexicans as an insult though. In real life Mexicans I've talked with, always seem more civilized and educated than Americans I've talked with, and start saying how they read Dostoevsky and Tolstoy.


    Compared to East Asian women (‘practically a rite of passage’ for Alt-right men) a quarter Georgian
     
    For some kind of "internationalist nationalist" (if this is not weird enough even for Americans), I could imagine them justifying marrying a Japanese girl - as you would at least pair with the master race of Asia. Even Hitler might not be too angry. And then South Koreans, could at best some a kind of low quality substitute for Japanese. Anything else in Asia, would be surely yellow trash for them.

    Replies: @AP

  749. @Thorfinnsson
    @LondonBob

    Perhaps the dull stories about civilian life have faded from my memory.

    Other than the Monty cult my strongest memory from the museum is an 800mm shell from the Schwerer Gustav.

    I don't have a problem with Monty, I was just irritated by the major Monty cult at the Imperial War Museum. American grousing about Monty comes down to:

    1 - He was pursuing British interests that conflicted with American aims
    2 - He wasn't American
    3 - He was rude

    I'm not bothered by these. He was a perfectly serviceable general. Perhaps not as good as Patton, but better than Omar Bradley...let alone Mark Clark. His strategic judgment was not good, but his operational judgment was decent.

    I'm of the impression that there were better British commanders than Monty, but they were on other fronts (e.g. Slim). On the other hand perhaps they would not have succeeded in command of such large formations and against German opposition.

    Montgomery's actions at the Battle of the Bulge were correct, though I'm mainly impressed by Eisenhower for having the courage to appoint a British commander.

    Replies: @LondonBob

    O’Connor’s offensive against the Italians in North Africa, Operation Compass, was the most impressive British offensive of the war, O’Connor seeking to emulate Stonewall Jackson’s tactics in his Shenandoah campaign with a smaller force using mobility and speed to rout a superior force. He did well enough in Normandy but did not distinguish himself. I actually think General Sir Miles Dempsey was the most capable, although he was Monty’s protege so Monty deserves credit again for his ability to select competent underlings.

    I always find the criticism of Montgomery’s cautiousness strange, Britain simply didn’t have the manpower to waste. I am reminded of JFC Fuller’s criticism of Lee being recklessly aggressive and wasting soldiers he could ill afford to lose.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    @LondonBob

    Operation Compass was a great success, but it was also against Italians. When the British attempted to continue to press the advantage against (rather small) German forces, the outcome was different. Contrary to myth the Italians were not cowards, but they were badly equipped and led.

    I agree that Montgomery's caution was appropriate. It was inferior in manpower and fighting against an opponent which was tactically superior. Furthermore, Britain enjoyed superior resources and was part of a grand coalition with overwhelming superiority in both manpower and resources.

    If Britain had been facing Germany alone then perhaps Montgomery would not have been an appropriate commander. Aggression can also be an appropriate strategy in response to limited resources as it offers the possibility of decisive results. This was after all the traditional Prussian-German strategy. But that requires tactically superior forces which cannot be quickly developed, and thus was never an option available to British land forces.

    I think Lee's aggression was appropriate for that reason, and in fact he was insufficiently aggressive. It was Stonewall Jackson who wanted to capitalize on First Bull Run with a major strategic offensive into the north to sever the communications between NYC and DC.

    The most interesting success with limited forces in the war is probably Tiger Yamashita's campaign during the Centrifugal Offensive against British forces in Malaya and Singapore. And of course the Finns.

  750. @Dmitry
    @Hyperborean

    Sure I only follow the story on Karlin's blog. But I'm sure she has been described as SJW here.

    As for race/nationality. The name is Russian, but people here say she is Georgian. From the face, she looks semi-caucasian type of Georgian. So it's an equivalent of if the alleged leader of Russian nationalism, was having children with a Mexican woman with an American name.

    There's nothing wrong with this, of course.

    But I can imagine American nationalists would be laughing about it as an irony, or something that was offensive to American nationalism, if Russian nationalists marry Mexicans.

    As for Georgians, they are a mix of different races living together, like so many other races (such as Mexicans even). Unlike Armenians, quite a proportion of Georgians are obviously look Europeans externally. Personally, Georgians I met who just look European.


    E.g. look at Georgian politicians or celebrities

    Some politician looks very Spanish or Italian to me

    https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10156621404003410&set=pb.612873409.-2207520000.1554245489.&type=3&theater

    Whereas Saakashvili is a pure caucasian race.

    https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10155737577258410&set=pb.612873409.-2207520000.1554245607.&type=3&theater

    Georgia's Minister of Economics looks like some North African girls
    https://i.imgur.com/PK0kTGV.jpg

    Some Georgian celebrities look half-European

    https://www.instagram.com/p/BsEZhklhlq8/

    And then others look almost Spanish

    https://www.instagram.com/p/BoJ4IfPnxNs/

    Maybe more "aristocratic" caucasian look

    https://www.instagram.com/p/BknLT8ql-Bs/

    Then the really more typical dark caucasian race Georgians (which are like Armenians and Turks).

    https://www.instagram.com/p/BvbSXy6l99J/


    And more typical dark Georgians, which look the identical as Armenians and Turks
    https://www.instagram.com/p/Bp9oEcIHdan/

    -
    Richard Spencer wife - she's somewhere in the "middle range" ?
    https://i.imgur.com/fykdC9e.jpg

    https://i.imgur.com/ZZsoXLo.jpg

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson, @songbird, @melanf, @melanf, @reiner Tor

    Vera Kobalia is just… wow.

  751. Give this man a hand.

    • Replies: @DFH
    @Priss Factor

    Strange that they didn't mention that he's a white nationalist (or any of his political opinions at all). Are Mail journalists just that lazy?

    The NPC responses (even in the Mail comments) are hilarious as well.

  752. @Priss Factor
    Give this man a hand.

    https://twitter.com/ramzpaul/status/1114155669890924545

    Replies: @DFH

    Strange that they didn’t mention that he’s a white nationalist (or any of his political opinions at all). Are Mail journalists just that lazy?

    The NPC responses (even in the Mail comments) are hilarious as well.

  753. German_reader says:

    Cover of tomorrow’s SPIEGEL:

    AfD
    Putin’s puppets
    How the Kremlin is using the right-wing party for its own purposes

    • LOL: Thorfinnsson
    • Replies: @songbird
    @German_reader

    That's great: it really conforms to the anthropological view that Leftism is akin to Africans' belief in hoodoo.

    You have the strings representing the invisible force, or the hex. Nuclear energy, racism/sexism, genetic engineering, or in this case, the internet. You have the word "Puppen" which evokes voodoo dolls, besides having some amount of alliteration, such as a witchdoctor would surely use.

    Replies: @German_reader

    , @Mitleser
    @German_reader

    Russiagate: German edition

    Just as fake as the original.


    Mainly it concerns the AfD Bundestag delegate Markus Frohnmaier. According to SPIEGEL history, someone from the Duma, i.e. the Russian parliament (there are no more specific information), sent a paper about him to the Russian presidential administration in 2017 before the federal elections, saying about him, Frohnmaier: "He will be a member of the Bundestag under absolute control. And: "So far there has been no evidence that such considerations actually exist high up in the Russian state apparatus".

    They are still missing, at least in the cover story of SPIEGEL. There is neither evidence that the letter from the Duma was included in any considerations, nor for a concrete support of Frohnmaier from the Kremlin. Frohnmaier actually said about the Russian annexed Crimea: "The Crimea won't come back any more, and I think you just have to accept that now, too".

    This view can be considered right or wrong, at least it is more or less the same as the FDP politician and deputy Bundestag president Wolfgang Kubicki said some time ago about the Crimea
     
    .
    Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator
    https://www.publicomag.com/2019/04/wochenrueckblick-ein-sozialismus-mit-dem-antlitz-von-robert-habeck/

    Replies: @reiner Tor

  754. @Priss Factor
    PC is like a drug.

    https://quillette.com/2018/07/14/i-was-the-mob-until-the-mob-came-for-me/

    How did I become that person(a SJW)? It happened because it was exhilarating. Every time I would call someone racist or sexist, I would get a rush. That rush would then be reaffirmed and sustained by the stars, hearts, and thumbs-up that constitute the nickels and dimes of social media validation. The people giving me these stars, hearts, and thumbs-up were engaging in their own cynical game: A fear of being targeted by the mob induces us to signal publicly that we are part of it.

    Replies: @Thulean Friend

    That is a terrible analysis. It’s not far from the “they only do it for money” cope argument that you hear from boomers and/or cuckservatives. Both arguments are designed to distract from the fact that there is real, underlying malice in what’s happening to the West and it’s coming from the inside by trivialising and/or personalising it.

    Sometimes it’s hard to know if the people pushing this kind of ‘analysis’ are just stupid or malicious themselves, frankly. In case of them being malicious, because they want people to think that there are more shallow/pedestrian reasons for what’s happening now.

    By shifting it to money or ‘getting a rush’, you’re blocking the avenues to deeper introspection. Quillette and sites like that are more dangerous than even leftist sites because they act as a narrow vessel of pseudo-resistance to the current dogma without ever fundamentally challening its core assumptions (such as opposition to white ethnic organising), while dressing it in indivualist arguments. Jordan Peterson on steroids.

  755. @Hyperborean
    @Dmitry


    According to the media, this is the most important American nationalist. But the personal life behaviour is less nationalist than American liberals who are marrying white anglosaxons.
     
    Compared to East Asian women ('practically a rite of passage' for Alt-right men) a quarter Georgian* is not so odd.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/06/opinion/sunday/alt-right-asian-fetish.html

    But there is a simpler explanation. Kouprianova, possessing similar interests, is probably one of the few women who actually find Spencer's monologues on Spengler and Heidegger interesting. However, I think Spencer's current girlfriend is a crazy white Anglo-Saxon liberal (who apparently leads him around on a physical leash?).

    *Although to be whimsical:

    https://www.counter-currents.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/VettingPart2_Flowchart.jpg

    Replies: @songbird, @Dmitry

    There is the idea that the greater the genetic distance, the greater the chance of psychological problems, due to mismatch among the very large number of genes expressed in the brain. Under that consideration, Georgian might be better.

    Though, I have known a number of Asian happas, and they all seemed fairly normal. I have never known a Georgian (at least from the country), so my subconscious thoughts may be colored by the Schwarzenegger movie “Red Heat.”

    I like the flag, still I must say the country is suspiciously close to Chechnya. On that basis, I would probably prefer a quarter Asian.

  756. @LondonBob
    @Thorfinnsson

    O'Connor's offensive against the Italians in North Africa, Operation Compass, was the most impressive British offensive of the war, O'Connor seeking to emulate Stonewall Jackson's tactics in his Shenandoah campaign with a smaller force using mobility and speed to rout a superior force. He did well enough in Normandy but did not distinguish himself. I actually think General Sir Miles Dempsey was the most capable, although he was Monty's protege so Monty deserves credit again for his ability to select competent underlings.

    I always find the criticism of Montgomery's cautiousness strange, Britain simply didn't have the manpower to waste. I am reminded of JFC Fuller's criticism of Lee being recklessly aggressive and wasting soldiers he could ill afford to lose.

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson

    Operation Compass was a great success, but it was also against Italians. When the British attempted to continue to press the advantage against (rather small) German forces, the outcome was different. Contrary to myth the Italians were not cowards, but they were badly equipped and led.

    I agree that Montgomery’s caution was appropriate. It was inferior in manpower and fighting against an opponent which was tactically superior. Furthermore, Britain enjoyed superior resources and was part of a grand coalition with overwhelming superiority in both manpower and resources.

    If Britain had been facing Germany alone then perhaps Montgomery would not have been an appropriate commander. Aggression can also be an appropriate strategy in response to limited resources as it offers the possibility of decisive results. This was after all the traditional Prussian-German strategy. But that requires tactically superior forces which cannot be quickly developed, and thus was never an option available to British land forces.

    I think Lee’s aggression was appropriate for that reason, and in fact he was insufficiently aggressive. It was Stonewall Jackson who wanted to capitalize on First Bull Run with a major strategic offensive into the north to sever the communications between NYC and DC.

    The most interesting success with limited forces in the war is probably Tiger Yamashita’s campaign during the Centrifugal Offensive against British forces in Malaya and Singapore. And of course the Finns.

  757. @Hyperborean
    @Dmitry


    According to the media, this is the most important American nationalist. But the personal life behaviour is less nationalist than American liberals who are marrying white anglosaxons.
     
    Compared to East Asian women ('practically a rite of passage' for Alt-right men) a quarter Georgian* is not so odd.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/06/opinion/sunday/alt-right-asian-fetish.html

    But there is a simpler explanation. Kouprianova, possessing similar interests, is probably one of the few women who actually find Spencer's monologues on Spengler and Heidegger interesting. However, I think Spencer's current girlfriend is a crazy white Anglo-Saxon liberal (who apparently leads him around on a physical leash?).

    *Although to be whimsical:

    https://www.counter-currents.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/VettingPart2_Flowchart.jpg

    Replies: @songbird, @Dmitry

    Georgians are just quite analogous to Mexicans, racially and culturally – in relation to America and Russia.

    American media was claiming (of course inventing) an idea that Spencer is the most important American nationalist, who is somehow related to Trump’s nationalism. So at least from Russia, it is ironic, as the “nationalism” of Trump’s election was all from his rhetoric against Mexican immigration.

    Lol I’m not associating Georgians with Mexicans as an insult though. In real life Mexicans I’ve talked with, always seem more civilized and educated than Americans I’ve talked with, and start saying how they read Dostoevsky and Tolstoy.

    Compared to East Asian women (‘practically a rite of passage’ for Alt-right men) a quarter Georgian

    For some kind of “internationalist nationalist” (if this is not weird enough even for Americans), I could imagine them justifying marrying a Japanese girl – as you would at least pair with the master race of Asia. Even Hitler might not be too angry. And then South Koreans, could at best some a kind of low quality substitute for Japanese. Anything else in Asia, would be surely yellow trash for them.

    • Replies: @AP
    @Dmitry


    In real life Mexicans I’ve talked with, always seem more civilized and educated than Americans I’ve talked with, and start saying how they read Dostoevsky and Tolstoy.
     
    Typical of educated Latin Americans. Educated people from Puerto Rico read those authors too.
  758. Would you rather have six delicious Coors Banquets?

    Or six months left to live?

  759. @German_reader
    Cover of tomorrow's SPIEGEL:

    https://twitter.com/DerSPIEGEL/status/1114196258351198214


    AfD
    Putin's puppets
    How the Kremlin is using the right-wing party for its own purposes

    Replies: @songbird, @Mitleser

    That’s great: it really conforms to the anthropological view that Leftism is akin to Africans’ belief in hoodoo.

    You have the strings representing the invisible force, or the hex. Nuclear energy, racism/sexism, genetic engineering, or in this case, the internet. You have the word “Puppen” which evokes voodoo dolls, besides having some amount of alliteration, such as a witchdoctor would surely use.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @songbird


    You have the word “Puppen” which evokes voodoo dolls, besides having some amount of alliteration
     
    The strange thing is, it doesn't really sound like standard German usage to me...I'd rather expect Putins Marionetten (puppet state is Marionettenstaat in German).
    It's probably still possible, and maybe they're just going for the alliteration, but I suppose to some degree it shows their dependence on the narratives provided by American liberals.

    Replies: @Hyperborean, @songbird

  760. Seven days…

    Okay, just six.

  761. German_reader says:
    @songbird
    @German_reader

    That's great: it really conforms to the anthropological view that Leftism is akin to Africans' belief in hoodoo.

    You have the strings representing the invisible force, or the hex. Nuclear energy, racism/sexism, genetic engineering, or in this case, the internet. You have the word "Puppen" which evokes voodoo dolls, besides having some amount of alliteration, such as a witchdoctor would surely use.

    Replies: @German_reader

    You have the word “Puppen” which evokes voodoo dolls, besides having some amount of alliteration

    The strange thing is, it doesn’t really sound like standard German usage to me…I’d rather expect Putins Marionetten (puppet state is Marionettenstaat in German).
    It’s probably still possible, and maybe they’re just going for the alliteration, but I suppose to some degree it shows their dependence on the narratives provided by American liberals.

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
    @German_reader


    The strange thing is, it doesn’t really sound like standard German usage to me…I’d rather expect Putins Marionetten (puppet state is Marionettenstaat in German).
    It’s probably still possible, and maybe they’re just going for the alliteration, but I suppose to some degree it shows their dependence on the narratives provided by American liberals.
     
    In Scandinavia, generally speaking in all parts of society but especially at higher discursive levels, it is becoming more and more common for people to speak a slightly peculiar form of their own languages due to the dominance of English (I myself suffer from this problem, but I see this also in my relatives, the everyday speech patterns of academics, the people who write for Danish state propaganda, etc.)

    I find it enjoyable to view old films, the actors speak without much foreign influences and with authentic accents.

    Replies: @songbird

    , @songbird
    @German_reader

    Forgot to mention the AfD arrow which serendipitously shows the direction of the curse.

    Speaking of the AfD, I support their efforts to prevent the German language from being increasingly modified, but not their plans to spread it among the migrants. The good thing about parallel societies is that they ease the deportation process. Of course, I am a hardliner.

    IMO, politics will increasingly have a malign influence on language, and English on other languages. Shorter words will be chosen by the Left as their political weapons, longer ones as their shields. That is why I advocate a full flight from the word "white" in the US and its replacement with the word "European."

  762. https://www.cnbc.com/2019/04/03/turkeys-erdogan-must-choose-us-f-35-fighter-jet-or-russian-s-400-missile-system.html

    I still don’t understand it. They don’t simply want to block the S-400 deal, but also humiliate Erdogan. I also think that it’s a bit over the top. After all, I’m pretty sure that there are lots of opportunities in this for the Americans (they could observe the S-400 up close), and the official argument (that the Russians could learn the secrets of the F-35) is obviously bullcrap. I thought that now they made it perfectly clear that they won’t tolerate such purchases in the future, from the Turks or anyone else. But now they are risking their entire relationship with Turkey, which is probably Putin’s pipe dream. So why are they doing it?

    On the other hand, I think this entails considerable risks for Russia, in that its sensitive military secrets could now fall into NATO hands. Which is still the most likely outcome. So maybe they should also let the Turks out of the deal? Maybe by requiring them to purchase Russian civilian airliners? So the money would still go to the Russian military-industrial complex.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    @reiner Tor

    America's strategy appears to be to degrade Russia's military-industrial complex by starving it of export revenues.

    This won't work with Erdogan, but it will probably achieve its intended result by dissuading others from purchasing Russian weapons.

    Either Pompeo and Bolton don't care about America's relationship with Turkey (my impression) or no they don't believe Turkey will break with the West.

    Replies: @reiner Tor

  763. @German_reader
    @songbird


    You have the word “Puppen” which evokes voodoo dolls, besides having some amount of alliteration
     
    The strange thing is, it doesn't really sound like standard German usage to me...I'd rather expect Putins Marionetten (puppet state is Marionettenstaat in German).
    It's probably still possible, and maybe they're just going for the alliteration, but I suppose to some degree it shows their dependence on the narratives provided by American liberals.

    Replies: @Hyperborean, @songbird

    The strange thing is, it doesn’t really sound like standard German usage to me…I’d rather expect Putins Marionetten (puppet state is Marionettenstaat in German).
    It’s probably still possible, and maybe they’re just going for the alliteration, but I suppose to some degree it shows their dependence on the narratives provided by American liberals.

    In Scandinavia, generally speaking in all parts of society but especially at higher discursive levels, it is becoming more and more common for people to speak a slightly peculiar form of their own languages due to the dominance of English (I myself suffer from this problem, but I see this also in my relatives, the everyday speech patterns of academics, the people who write for Danish state propaganda, etc.)

    I find it enjoyable to view old films, the actors speak without much foreign influences and with authentic accents.

    • Replies: @songbird
    @Hyperborean

    I like old British and American films too. Very few had blacks in them. What would be mundane today was considered exotic back then - a Quebecois seeing a monster flying towards the US in an American film, a British film set in Cornwall, which was considered a place of magic and superstition.

    It is sad that they shot a lot in studio and did not capture more places on film.

    I also appreciate the accents, though there was a tendency in America to make them up, and Britain had a definite preference for upper class ones.

    Replies: @Hyperborean, @Dmitry

  764. @Hyperborean
    @German_reader


    The strange thing is, it doesn’t really sound like standard German usage to me…I’d rather expect Putins Marionetten (puppet state is Marionettenstaat in German).
    It’s probably still possible, and maybe they’re just going for the alliteration, but I suppose to some degree it shows their dependence on the narratives provided by American liberals.
     
    In Scandinavia, generally speaking in all parts of society but especially at higher discursive levels, it is becoming more and more common for people to speak a slightly peculiar form of their own languages due to the dominance of English (I myself suffer from this problem, but I see this also in my relatives, the everyday speech patterns of academics, the people who write for Danish state propaganda, etc.)

    I find it enjoyable to view old films, the actors speak without much foreign influences and with authentic accents.

    Replies: @songbird

    I like old British and American films too. Very few had blacks in them. What would be mundane today was considered exotic back then – a Quebecois seeing a monster flying towards the US in an American film, a British film set in Cornwall, which was considered a place of magic and superstition.

    It is sad that they shot a lot in studio and did not capture more places on film.

    I also appreciate the accents, though there was a tendency in America to make them up, and Britain had a definite preference for upper class ones.

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
    @songbird


    What would be mundane today was considered exotic back then – a Quebecois seeing a monster flying towards the US in an American film, a British film set in Cornwall, which was considered a place of magic and superstition.
     
    Although I was born long after that, I find it quaint that there was a time in post-war Northern Europe when the weirdest ethnics people could imagine were Greeks, Italians or Yugoslav guest workers, what with their oh-so-crazy food, religion and manners.

    Replies: @for-the-record

    , @Dmitry
    @songbird

    I saw this old Hollywood film last month, Mr Hack recommended: "Cat on a hot tin roof".

    The grammar of how they speak sometimes was different to modern English.

    I thought it is more informal, missing some words, sometimes not saying the subject of the sentence, and more difficult to understand for parts. There is a section here:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jy59f_rp3D0


    Very few had blacks in them. What would be mundane today was considered exotic back then
     
    In "Cat on a hot tin roof", blacks are there only as servants.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @Anonymous, @songbird

  765. @German_reader
    @songbird


    You have the word “Puppen” which evokes voodoo dolls, besides having some amount of alliteration
     
    The strange thing is, it doesn't really sound like standard German usage to me...I'd rather expect Putins Marionetten (puppet state is Marionettenstaat in German).
    It's probably still possible, and maybe they're just going for the alliteration, but I suppose to some degree it shows their dependence on the narratives provided by American liberals.

    Replies: @Hyperborean, @songbird

    Forgot to mention the AfD arrow which serendipitously shows the direction of the curse.

    Speaking of the AfD, I support their efforts to prevent the German language from being increasingly modified, but not their plans to spread it among the migrants. The good thing about parallel societies is that they ease the deportation process. Of course, I am a hardliner.

    IMO, politics will increasingly have a malign influence on language, and English on other languages. Shorter words will be chosen by the Left as their political weapons, longer ones as their shields. That is why I advocate a full flight from the word “white” in the US and its replacement with the word “European.”

    • Agree: Adam
  766. This was shared in a Facebook group. The Russian aerospace industry’s production is collapsing, due to the significant decrease of defense procurement.

    https://www.rbc.ru/economics/06/04/2019/5ca72bfa9a7947fcb5c578f2

    • Replies: @Mitleser
    @reiner Tor

    Not really buying that.

    Combat jet production for MoD did not change much between 2017 and 2018: https://sdelanounas.ru/blogs/116155/

    Replies: @reiner Tor

  767. @reiner Tor
    This was shared in a Facebook group. The Russian aerospace industry’s production is collapsing, due to the significant decrease of defense procurement.

    https://www.rbc.ru/economics/06/04/2019/5ca72bfa9a7947fcb5c578f2

    Replies: @Mitleser

    Not really buying that.

    Combat jet production for MoD did not change much between 2017 and 2018: https://sdelanounas.ru/blogs/116155/

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @Mitleser

    So is it factually false? The rbc.ru seems to be a mainstream Russian outlet.

    Replies: @Mitleser

  768. @reiner Tor
    https://www.cnbc.com/2019/04/03/turkeys-erdogan-must-choose-us-f-35-fighter-jet-or-russian-s-400-missile-system.html

    I still don’t understand it. They don’t simply want to block the S-400 deal, but also humiliate Erdogan. I also think that it’s a bit over the top. After all, I’m pretty sure that there are lots of opportunities in this for the Americans (they could observe the S-400 up close), and the official argument (that the Russians could learn the secrets of the F-35) is obviously bullcrap. I thought that now they made it perfectly clear that they won’t tolerate such purchases in the future, from the Turks or anyone else. But now they are risking their entire relationship with Turkey, which is probably Putin’s pipe dream. So why are they doing it?

    On the other hand, I think this entails considerable risks for Russia, in that its sensitive military secrets could now fall into NATO hands. Which is still the most likely outcome. So maybe they should also let the Turks out of the deal? Maybe by requiring them to purchase Russian civilian airliners? So the money would still go to the Russian military-industrial complex.

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson

    America’s strategy appears to be to degrade Russia’s military-industrial complex by starving it of export revenues.

    This won’t work with Erdogan, but it will probably achieve its intended result by dissuading others from purchasing Russian weapons.

    Either Pompeo and Bolton don’t care about America’s relationship with Turkey (my impression) or no they don’t believe Turkey will break with the West.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @Thorfinnsson


    This won’t work with Erdogan, but it will probably achieve its intended result by dissuading others from purchasing Russian weapons.
     
    Let me restate it: it has already achieved its intended results with others (so no reason to continue, time to give the Turks the same exemption the Indians received), and it probably already achieved that Turkey won’t by anything more from Russia, but it certainly won’t achieve the cancellation of this one business.

    By pushing it further they might actually achieve the exact opposite: Turkey might resort to importing further Russian technologies to fill the gaps resulting from the coming American embargo, and they will probably in exchange share with the Russians the American (or indigenous) technologies that they already have.

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson

  769. @songbird
    @Hyperborean

    I like old British and American films too. Very few had blacks in them. What would be mundane today was considered exotic back then - a Quebecois seeing a monster flying towards the US in an American film, a British film set in Cornwall, which was considered a place of magic and superstition.

    It is sad that they shot a lot in studio and did not capture more places on film.

    I also appreciate the accents, though there was a tendency in America to make them up, and Britain had a definite preference for upper class ones.

    Replies: @Hyperborean, @Dmitry

    What would be mundane today was considered exotic back then – a Quebecois seeing a monster flying towards the US in an American film, a British film set in Cornwall, which was considered a place of magic and superstition.

    Although I was born long after that, I find it quaint that there was a time in post-war Northern Europe when the weirdest ethnics people could imagine were Greeks, Italians or Yugoslav guest workers, what with their oh-so-crazy food, religion and manners.

    • Replies: @for-the-record
    @Hyperborean

    I find it quaint that there was a time in post-war Northern Europe when the weirdest ethnics people could imagine were Greeks, Italians or Yugoslav guest workers

    Apropos: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVo_wkxH9dU

  770. @Dmitry
    @Hyperborean

    Georgians are just quite analogous to Mexicans, racially and culturally - in relation to America and Russia.

    American media was claiming (of course inventing) an idea that Spencer is the most important American nationalist, who is somehow related to Trump's nationalism. So at least from Russia, it is ironic, as the "nationalism" of Trump's election was all from his rhetoric against Mexican immigration.

    Lol I'm not associating Georgians with Mexicans as an insult though. In real life Mexicans I've talked with, always seem more civilized and educated than Americans I've talked with, and start saying how they read Dostoevsky and Tolstoy.


    Compared to East Asian women (‘practically a rite of passage’ for Alt-right men) a quarter Georgian
     
    For some kind of "internationalist nationalist" (if this is not weird enough even for Americans), I could imagine them justifying marrying a Japanese girl - as you would at least pair with the master race of Asia. Even Hitler might not be too angry. And then South Koreans, could at best some a kind of low quality substitute for Japanese. Anything else in Asia, would be surely yellow trash for them.

    Replies: @AP

    In real life Mexicans I’ve talked with, always seem more civilized and educated than Americans I’ve talked with, and start saying how they read Dostoevsky and Tolstoy.

    Typical of educated Latin Americans. Educated people from Puerto Rico read those authors too.

  771. @Thorfinnsson
    @reiner Tor

    America's strategy appears to be to degrade Russia's military-industrial complex by starving it of export revenues.

    This won't work with Erdogan, but it will probably achieve its intended result by dissuading others from purchasing Russian weapons.

    Either Pompeo and Bolton don't care about America's relationship with Turkey (my impression) or no they don't believe Turkey will break with the West.

    Replies: @reiner Tor

    This won’t work with Erdogan, but it will probably achieve its intended result by dissuading others from purchasing Russian weapons.

    Let me restate it: it has already achieved its intended results with others (so no reason to continue, time to give the Turks the same exemption the Indians received), and it probably already achieved that Turkey won’t by anything more from Russia, but it certainly won’t achieve the cancellation of this one business.

    By pushing it further they might actually achieve the exact opposite: Turkey might resort to importing further Russian technologies to fill the gaps resulting from the coming American embargo, and they will probably in exchange share with the Russians the American (or indigenous) technologies that they already have.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    @reiner Tor

    The fact that Turkey wants the S-400 in itself is interesting.

    One has to ask what threat the S-400 is intended to defend against.

    While it's the premier long range surface to air missile system, presumably the Russians are better aware of how to defeat it than Western forces are.

    This suggests that Turkey doesn't see Russia as being a threat and is actually defending itself from Western powers like Greece, Israel, the USA, France, and the UK.

    From that angle they might as well go ahead and make things official. I've heard that Su-57 sales to Turkey are being discussed.

    They also have an indigenous stealth fighter development program (though they are seeking foreign partnerships).

    As for sharing American technology with Russia, I doubt they have anything valuable to share. Not like they can provide the source code of the Aegis BMD.

    The real danger to American policy is what the general trend of aggression towards allies (sanctions, asset seizures, tariffs, etc.) will ultimately lead to. Sooner or later a more important country will decide to retaliate in unpleasant ways. Impossible to predict when or how this will occur.

    America is a very powerful country but has a number of strategic vulnerabilities that could be exploited by angry allies.

    Replies: @Mitleser, @reiner Tor

  772. I missed it. Apparently the American DoD plans to retire the USS Harry S. Truman decades early. This is pretty interesting. A similar proposal – blocked by Congress – was made for another carrier a few years ago.

    This could be because carriers appear to be increasingly useless against near peer targets – their aircraft are relatively short range and thus either useless or the carrier needs to move within the enemy’s range. Apparently they are ramping up submarine production at the same time, which means they are truly worried about Chinese anti-ship missiles.

    https://breakingdefense.com/2019/02/pentagon-to-retire-uss-truman-early-shrinking-carrier-fleet-to-10/

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @reiner Tor

    On the other hand, here this guy says it’s stupid and won’t be done anyway. He also says that the navy has been planning for war against China and they know how to protect their assets, for example by destroying the Chinese “targeting complex,” which would be destroyed in the first hours of the war. Does anyone by any chance know what the “targeting complex” is, and how it is going to be destroyed? Is it the Chinese satellites?

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/lorenthompson/2019/03/15/plan-to-retire-uss-truman-early-makes-no-sense-which-is-why-the-navy-doesnt-really-want-to-do-it/

    , @Thorfinnsson
    @reiner Tor

    The US Navy is required by law to maintain eleven carriers in operation. The Navy pulled this exact same stunt in 2016. The purpose of this stunt is to get Congress to increase its budget.

    It's kind of a moot point anyway since we only have nine carrier air wings anyway, and these air wings have considerably shrunk in size and capability in the past generation.

    Elements of the USN are concerned about Chinese "A2AD" weapons, but their official position is that CVBGs remain very difficult targets.

    The Virginia-class submarine is one of the few major procurement successes in this century, and Electric Boat has successfully reduced both the time and cost it takes to deliver a new one. This industrial success is one of the reasons for increased procurement. SSNs are also viewed as useful in hunting down adversary submarine forces, enforcing blockades, and participating in SOCOM operations (important to stay "relevant").

    Overall the Navy's force structure and doctrine is dictated by path dependency, domestic politics, and careerism. It is highly resistant to change. If pressed to explain its unsuitability for fighting China the Navy would probably blame Congress and the DoD for killing the A-12 and N-ATF programs in the 1990s.

    Replies: @reiner Tor

  773. @Mitleser
    @reiner Tor

    Not really buying that.

    Combat jet production for MoD did not change much between 2017 and 2018: https://sdelanounas.ru/blogs/116155/

    Replies: @reiner Tor

    So is it factually false? The rbc.ru seems to be a mainstream Russian outlet.

    • Replies: @Mitleser
    @reiner Tor

    The claim that "production is collapsing due to the significant decrease of defense procurement" is false.

    For instance, the SSJ production significantly declined from 33 to 24, but that was not related to defense procurement.

    Production of Su-30SM and Su-35 declined, but that was to be expected because state orders are mostly fulfilled and the focus is now shifting to the Su-57 whose serial production starts in 2019.

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @reiner Tor

  774. • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @reiner Tor

    Maybe Karlin plans to send us a million $ each after each post he posted in April so far.

  775. @reiner Tor
    https://youtu.be/dBDIrLpyg-E

    Replies: @reiner Tor

    Maybe Karlin plans to send us a million $ each after each post he posted in April so far.

  776. @reiner Tor
    @Mitleser

    So is it factually false? The rbc.ru seems to be a mainstream Russian outlet.

    Replies: @Mitleser

    The claim that “production is collapsing due to the significant decrease of defense procurement” is false.

    For instance, the SSJ production significantly declined from 33 to 24, but that was not related to defense procurement.

    Production of Su-30SM and Su-35 declined, but that was to be expected because state orders are mostly fulfilled and the focus is now shifting to the Su-57 whose serial production starts in 2019.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @Mitleser

    I see. Then did civilian production drop further in the first quarter of 2019?

    , @reiner Tor
    @Mitleser

    The guy also shared this:

    https://tass.ru/ekonomika/6303731

    So apparently there is a serious drop in production. What is going on? It’s interesting that Putin does very little to support the local aviation industry.

    Replies: @Mitleser

  777. @Mitleser
    @reiner Tor

    The claim that "production is collapsing due to the significant decrease of defense procurement" is false.

    For instance, the SSJ production significantly declined from 33 to 24, but that was not related to defense procurement.

    Production of Su-30SM and Su-35 declined, but that was to be expected because state orders are mostly fulfilled and the focus is now shifting to the Su-57 whose serial production starts in 2019.

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @reiner Tor

    I see. Then did civilian production drop further in the first quarter of 2019?

  778. @reiner Tor
    I missed it. Apparently the American DoD plans to retire the USS Harry S. Truman decades early. This is pretty interesting. A similar proposal - blocked by Congress - was made for another carrier a few years ago.

    This could be because carriers appear to be increasingly useless against near peer targets - their aircraft are relatively short range and thus either useless or the carrier needs to move within the enemy’s range. Apparently they are ramping up submarine production at the same time, which means they are truly worried about Chinese anti-ship missiles.

    https://breakingdefense.com/2019/02/pentagon-to-retire-uss-truman-early-shrinking-carrier-fleet-to-10/

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @Thorfinnsson

    On the other hand, here this guy says it’s stupid and won’t be done anyway. He also says that the navy has been planning for war against China and they know how to protect their assets, for example by destroying the Chinese “targeting complex,” which would be destroyed in the first hours of the war. Does anyone by any chance know what the “targeting complex” is, and how it is going to be destroyed? Is it the Chinese satellites?

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/lorenthompson/2019/03/15/plan-to-retire-uss-truman-early-makes-no-sense-which-is-why-the-navy-doesnt-really-want-to-do-it/

  779. India conducted an anti-satellite missile test a few days ago.

    I’m scratching my head, but I really don’t see the point. Might have made sense when the US and the Soviet Union developed the capability, but now spy sats can be the size of brick cellphones – I guess the detail is limited (no license plates), but it is definitely enough to track a carrier or any shipping.

    I guess you could take out large communication satellites, depriving the Middle East of their soaps, but creating a debris field up there would piss a lot of people off. In theory, detonating a nuke in space would be pretty effective, but would piss even more people off.

    It would be relatively easy to destroy rocket infrastructure – the factories, the launching facilities, the brainpower. But then you are probably in a nuclear scenario. Truth be told, I really don’t see the point of war with China. To protect Taiwan’s right to become super-pozzed and Africanized? To protect the offshore mineral rights of countries with more rational claims?

    IMO, carriers are white elephants, only good for bombing the Third World, which at least for the US and Russia (or anyone with energy reserves) has questionable utility. They were already made obsolete by MAD. They should be replaced with much smaller, drone-launching ships.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    @songbird

    The rational point of confronting China is that if China succeeds in driving US forces out of the Western Pacific and vassalizing America's client states in the region it will then be in a position to project naval power into the Western hemisphere. The oldest constant of American strategy is to exclude rival powers from the Western hemisphere, and since the late 1930s it has been American policy to dominate the axial ends of Eurasia to prevent even the possibility of this.

    The vassalization of American client states in the Western Pacific would also put them in a position to transfer extremely advanced technology to the PRC which is currently not permitted. I'm skeptical of how useful these technology export restrictions are (Japan and South Korea barely honor them and China is increasingly advanced on its own), but they're taken seriously by US policymakers.

    Less rationally (from a POV of national strategy) the China threat provides many benefits such as:

    • Maintaining the status quo (change is hard and scary)
    • Fat military procurement contracts
    • Substantial career opportunities for officers, including many flag officer ranks
    • Lucrative industry funded sinecures for policymakers and academics
    • Empire by itself is fun and satisfies deep human desires

    I'm receptive to the view that containing China within the Western Pacific increases American security, but the costs and risks of this need to be seriously assessed in light of possible alternatives. In a way this a very old argument. Charles Lindbergh always maintained that armed neutrality would be cheaper in blood and treasure for hemispheric defense.

    As far as carriers go, maybe. It has never actually been demonstrated that carriers are obsolete, only suggested. The same weapons which threaten carriers are themselves employed by carriers for both offense and defense, so in a way nothing has changed. That said US carrier battle groups are inappropriately designed, particularly their air wings.

    The alternative to carriers would be Doenitz's vision. More submarines and land-based aircraft, which also means more bases, tankers, etc. The Navy would probably point out that tankers and long-range bombers are a lot more vulnerable than CVBGs when operating far from allied basing.

    Replies: @songbird

    , @reiner Tor
    @songbird


    spy sats can be the size of brick cellphones
     
    Don’t they need bigger batteries? But for example destroying GPS/GLONASS/etc. systems is probably still doable.

    Replies: @songbird

  780. @reiner Tor
    @Thorfinnsson


    This won’t work with Erdogan, but it will probably achieve its intended result by dissuading others from purchasing Russian weapons.
     
    Let me restate it: it has already achieved its intended results with others (so no reason to continue, time to give the Turks the same exemption the Indians received), and it probably already achieved that Turkey won’t by anything more from Russia, but it certainly won’t achieve the cancellation of this one business.

    By pushing it further they might actually achieve the exact opposite: Turkey might resort to importing further Russian technologies to fill the gaps resulting from the coming American embargo, and they will probably in exchange share with the Russians the American (or indigenous) technologies that they already have.

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson

    The fact that Turkey wants the S-400 in itself is interesting.

    One has to ask what threat the S-400 is intended to defend against.

    While it’s the premier long range surface to air missile system, presumably the Russians are better aware of how to defeat it than Western forces are.

    This suggests that Turkey doesn’t see Russia as being a threat and is actually defending itself from Western powers like Greece, Israel, the USA, France, and the UK.

    From that angle they might as well go ahead and make things official. I’ve heard that Su-57 sales to Turkey are being discussed.

    They also have an indigenous stealth fighter development program (though they are seeking foreign partnerships).

    As for sharing American technology with Russia, I doubt they have anything valuable to share. Not like they can provide the source code of the Aegis BMD.

    The real danger to American policy is what the general trend of aggression towards allies (sanctions, asset seizures, tariffs, etc.) will ultimately lead to. Sooner or later a more important country will decide to retaliate in unpleasant ways. Impossible to predict when or how this will occur.

    America is a very powerful country but has a number of strategic vulnerabilities that could be exploited by angry allies.

    • Replies: @Mitleser
    @Thorfinnsson


    This suggests that Turkey doesn’t see Russia as being a threat and is actually defending itself from Western powers like Greece, Israel, the USA, France, and the UK.
     
    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DyfdzC8WkAEbbuk.jpg

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DyfeAR1WwAAnfCt.jpg

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DyfeCL1X0AUpPyY.jpg

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson, @songbird

    , @reiner Tor
    @Thorfinnsson


    The fact that Turkey wants the S-400 in itself is interesting.
     
    It’s simple. They kept asking for a Patriot and maybe other stuff like THAAD, but the Americans kept throwing up hurdles.

    One possible reason is Israel: the Americans have a more or less stated official policy of not letting any country in the Middle East be stronger than Israel, so they never sell the Muslims the latest military technologies. With Erdogan’s moderate (?) Islamism and general unreliability, they probably wanted to avoid a situation where Israel would face Turkish Patriot PAC3 and THAAD in Syria.

    Another possible reason is simply the Turkish requirement for sharing technology and indigenous production.

    Or they simply didn’t trust Erdogan or even Turkey in general (especially in light of the Turkish refusal to grant airspace for the invasion of Iraq in 2003), regardless of Israel.

    Now, the Turks probably threatened that they would then buy from the Russians, and finally made good on their threats.

    it’s the premier long range surface to air missile system
     
    Probably the biggest bang for the buck, though I think the Patriot PAC3 plus a THAAD provide better capabilities - albeit for something like five times the money. Except for the 400 km range, which is probably not very useful for the Americans. (Due to the shape of the Earth it only works against very high flying targets, and probably the Americans are correct to assume air superiority anyway.)

    As for sharing American technology with Russia,
     
    Even if Turkey didn’t provide the most high tech components for the F-35 program, it still has some details and specifications. Its pilots are already receiving training, so presumably they have a lot of interesting things to tell about its vulnerabilities or as simple things as American tactics.

    the Russians are better aware of how to defeat it than Western forces are
     
    There is something to it (I also read about East German air-to-air missiles and MiG-29 fighters which fell into the hands of the Bundeswehr: Soviet missiles worked better against Western fighters, and vice versa, presumably because both sides developed and tested their own defenses and countermeasures against their own weapons), but I don’t think there’s a silver bullet against any weapons system. The Russians had to fight Soviet (often Russian) weapons the hard way in Georgia and Ukraine, and presumably it’d be the same with the Turkish S-400. Similar to the issues Iranian F-14s posed to the US.

    From that angle they might as well go ahead and make things official. I’ve heard that Su-57 sales to Turkey are being discussed.
     
    But that’d defeat the purpose of the whole policy against Turkey: the policy intended to starve the Russian MIC of orders would end up providing it with a new customer as well as accelerating the Su-57 development. The Turks might even provide a few ideas or technologies from the F-35, though I already wrote that.

    It’d also be great marketing for Russian military technology (or at least the S-400) if Turkey broke with the West merely to be able to buy it. If I were an American policy maker, I’d probably try to avoid such an outcome.

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson, @LondonBob

  781. @reiner Tor
    I missed it. Apparently the American DoD plans to retire the USS Harry S. Truman decades early. This is pretty interesting. A similar proposal - blocked by Congress - was made for another carrier a few years ago.

    This could be because carriers appear to be increasingly useless against near peer targets - their aircraft are relatively short range and thus either useless or the carrier needs to move within the enemy’s range. Apparently they are ramping up submarine production at the same time, which means they are truly worried about Chinese anti-ship missiles.

    https://breakingdefense.com/2019/02/pentagon-to-retire-uss-truman-early-shrinking-carrier-fleet-to-10/

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @Thorfinnsson

    The US Navy is required by law to maintain eleven carriers in operation. The Navy pulled this exact same stunt in 2016. The purpose of this stunt is to get Congress to increase its budget.

    It’s kind of a moot point anyway since we only have nine carrier air wings anyway, and these air wings have considerably shrunk in size and capability in the past generation.

    Elements of the USN are concerned about Chinese “A2AD” weapons, but their official position is that CVBGs remain very difficult targets.

    The Virginia-class submarine is one of the few major procurement successes in this century, and Electric Boat has successfully reduced both the time and cost it takes to deliver a new one. This industrial success is one of the reasons for increased procurement. SSNs are also viewed as useful in hunting down adversary submarine forces, enforcing blockades, and participating in SOCOM operations (important to stay “relevant”).

    Overall the Navy’s force structure and doctrine is dictated by path dependency, domestic politics, and careerism. It is highly resistant to change. If pressed to explain its unsuitability for fighting China the Navy would probably blame Congress and the DoD for killing the A-12 and N-ATF programs in the 1990s.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @Thorfinnsson


    we only have nine carrier air wings anyway
     
    Because one of the carriers is in overhaul/repairs/whatever anyway.

    Don’t you know by any chance what the Forbes article talks about as the Chinese “targeting complex,” which would be immediately destroyed in a war?

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson

  782. @songbird
    India conducted an anti-satellite missile test a few days ago.

    I'm scratching my head, but I really don't see the point. Might have made sense when the US and the Soviet Union developed the capability, but now spy sats can be the size of brick cellphones - I guess the detail is limited (no license plates), but it is definitely enough to track a carrier or any shipping.

    I guess you could take out large communication satellites, depriving the Middle East of their soaps, but creating a debris field up there would piss a lot of people off. In theory, detonating a nuke in space would be pretty effective, but would piss even more people off.

    It would be relatively easy to destroy rocket infrastructure - the factories, the launching facilities, the brainpower. But then you are probably in a nuclear scenario. Truth be told, I really don't see the point of war with China. To protect Taiwan's right to become super-pozzed and Africanized? To protect the offshore mineral rights of countries with more rational claims?

    IMO, carriers are white elephants, only good for bombing the Third World, which at least for the US and Russia (or anyone with energy reserves) has questionable utility. They were already made obsolete by MAD. They should be replaced with much smaller, drone-launching ships.

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson, @reiner Tor

    The rational point of confronting China is that if China succeeds in driving US forces out of the Western Pacific and vassalizing America’s client states in the region it will then be in a position to project naval power into the Western hemisphere. The oldest constant of American strategy is to exclude rival powers from the Western hemisphere, and since the late 1930s it has been American policy to dominate the axial ends of Eurasia to prevent even the possibility of this.

    The vassalization of American client states in the Western Pacific would also put them in a position to transfer extremely advanced technology to the PRC which is currently not permitted. I’m skeptical of how useful these technology export restrictions are (Japan and South Korea barely honor them and China is increasingly advanced on its own), but they’re taken seriously by US policymakers.

    Less rationally (from a POV of national strategy) the China threat provides many benefits such as:

    • Maintaining the status quo (change is hard and scary)
    • Fat military procurement contracts
    • Substantial career opportunities for officers, including many flag officer ranks
    • Lucrative industry funded sinecures for policymakers and academics
    • Empire by itself is fun and satisfies deep human desires

    I’m receptive to the view that containing China within the Western Pacific increases American security, but the costs and risks of this need to be seriously assessed in light of possible alternatives. In a way this a very old argument. Charles Lindbergh always maintained that armed neutrality would be cheaper in blood and treasure for hemispheric defense.

    As far as carriers go, maybe. It has never actually been demonstrated that carriers are obsolete, only suggested. The same weapons which threaten carriers are themselves employed by carriers for both offense and defense, so in a way nothing has changed. That said US carrier battle groups are inappropriately designed, particularly their air wings.

    The alternative to carriers would be Doenitz’s vision. More submarines and land-based aircraft, which also means more bases, tankers, etc. The Navy would probably point out that tankers and long-range bombers are a lot more vulnerable than CVBGs when operating far from allied basing.

    • Replies: @songbird
    @Thorfinnsson

    Good point about the MIC.

    My preferred strategy would be to give the Japs nukes, and the Koreans an 8-year notice that we a pulling out. Savings would accrue to taxpayers, or else be invested in more realistic problems, like declining white fertility. (of course, the Cathedral would not admit this problem exists, so difficult to turn into US policy.)

    The Chinese, of course, have a serious fertility problem. I think this makes them unlikely to be expansive, but as a general naval strategy, I think I would prefer more hulls for the same cost as a carrier.

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @Thorfinnsson

  783. @Thorfinnsson
    @reiner Tor

    The fact that Turkey wants the S-400 in itself is interesting.

    One has to ask what threat the S-400 is intended to defend against.

    While it's the premier long range surface to air missile system, presumably the Russians are better aware of how to defeat it than Western forces are.

    This suggests that Turkey doesn't see Russia as being a threat and is actually defending itself from Western powers like Greece, Israel, the USA, France, and the UK.

    From that angle they might as well go ahead and make things official. I've heard that Su-57 sales to Turkey are being discussed.

    They also have an indigenous stealth fighter development program (though they are seeking foreign partnerships).

    As for sharing American technology with Russia, I doubt they have anything valuable to share. Not like they can provide the source code of the Aegis BMD.

    The real danger to American policy is what the general trend of aggression towards allies (sanctions, asset seizures, tariffs, etc.) will ultimately lead to. Sooner or later a more important country will decide to retaliate in unpleasant ways. Impossible to predict when or how this will occur.

    America is a very powerful country but has a number of strategic vulnerabilities that could be exploited by angry allies.

    Replies: @Mitleser, @reiner Tor

    This suggests that Turkey doesn’t see Russia as being a threat and is actually defending itself from Western powers like Greece, Israel, the USA, France, and the UK.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    @Mitleser

    To what extent does Erdogan's strategic thinking reflect Turkish popular opinion?

    , @songbird
    @Mitleser

    A number of years ago - perhaps during Bush 43 - there was a Turkish bestseller in the fashion of a Tom Clancy novel, where a foreign enemy invaded Turkey and was driven out by patriotic Turks. The foreign enemy was the USA.

    Makes sense to me. I mean, some of Tom Clancy's scenarios were even more fantastical. But, still, I'd like see Turkey dropped as an ally. They are really just the successor to the Ottomans, more civilizationally at odds with us than the Russians ever were. Besides, I think having them in NATO encourages the people who want to incorporate them into Europe.

    Replies: @Mitleser

  784. @Mitleser
    @Thorfinnsson


    This suggests that Turkey doesn’t see Russia as being a threat and is actually defending itself from Western powers like Greece, Israel, the USA, France, and the UK.
     
    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DyfdzC8WkAEbbuk.jpg

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DyfeAR1WwAAnfCt.jpg

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DyfeCL1X0AUpPyY.jpg

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson, @songbird

    To what extent does Erdogan’s strategic thinking reflect Turkish popular opinion?

  785. @Thorfinnsson
    @reiner Tor

    The fact that Turkey wants the S-400 in itself is interesting.

    One has to ask what threat the S-400 is intended to defend against.

    While it's the premier long range surface to air missile system, presumably the Russians are better aware of how to defeat it than Western forces are.

    This suggests that Turkey doesn't see Russia as being a threat and is actually defending itself from Western powers like Greece, Israel, the USA, France, and the UK.

    From that angle they might as well go ahead and make things official. I've heard that Su-57 sales to Turkey are being discussed.

    They also have an indigenous stealth fighter development program (though they are seeking foreign partnerships).

    As for sharing American technology with Russia, I doubt they have anything valuable to share. Not like they can provide the source code of the Aegis BMD.

    The real danger to American policy is what the general trend of aggression towards allies (sanctions, asset seizures, tariffs, etc.) will ultimately lead to. Sooner or later a more important country will decide to retaliate in unpleasant ways. Impossible to predict when or how this will occur.

    America is a very powerful country but has a number of strategic vulnerabilities that could be exploited by angry allies.

    Replies: @Mitleser, @reiner Tor

    The fact that Turkey wants the S-400 in itself is interesting.

    It’s simple. They kept asking for a Patriot and maybe other stuff like THAAD, but the Americans kept throwing up hurdles.

    One possible reason is Israel: the Americans have a more or less stated official policy of not letting any country in the Middle East be stronger than Israel, so they never sell the Muslims the latest military technologies. With Erdogan’s moderate (?) Islamism and general unreliability, they probably wanted to avoid a situation where Israel would face Turkish Patriot PAC3 and THAAD in Syria.

    Another possible reason is simply the Turkish requirement for sharing technology and indigenous production.

    Or they simply didn’t trust Erdogan or even Turkey in general (especially in light of the Turkish refusal to grant airspace for the invasion of Iraq in 2003), regardless of Israel.

    Now, the Turks probably threatened that they would then buy from the Russians, and finally made good on their threats.

    it’s the premier long range surface to air missile system

    Probably the biggest bang for the buck, though I think the Patriot PAC3 plus a THAAD provide better capabilities – albeit for something like five times the money. Except for the 400 km range, which is probably not very useful for the Americans. (Due to the shape of the Earth it only works against very high flying targets, and probably the Americans are correct to assume air superiority anyway.)

    As for sharing American technology with Russia,

    Even if Turkey didn’t provide the most high tech components for the F-35 program, it still has some details and specifications. Its pilots are already receiving training, so presumably they have a lot of interesting things to tell about its vulnerabilities or as simple things as American tactics.

    the Russians are better aware of how to defeat it than Western forces are

    There is something to it (I also read about East German air-to-air missiles and MiG-29 fighters which fell into the hands of the Bundeswehr: Soviet missiles worked better against Western fighters, and vice versa, presumably because both sides developed and tested their own defenses and countermeasures against their own weapons), but I don’t think there’s a silver bullet against any weapons system. The Russians had to fight Soviet (often Russian) weapons the hard way in Georgia and Ukraine, and presumably it’d be the same with the Turkish S-400. Similar to the issues Iranian F-14s posed to the US.

    From that angle they might as well go ahead and make things official. I’ve heard that Su-57 sales to Turkey are being discussed.

    But that’d defeat the purpose of the whole policy against Turkey: the policy intended to starve the Russian MIC of orders would end up providing it with a new customer as well as accelerating the Su-57 development. The Turks might even provide a few ideas or technologies from the F-35, though I already wrote that.

    It’d also be great marketing for Russian military technology (or at least the S-400) if Turkey broke with the West merely to be able to buy it. If I were an American policy maker, I’d probably try to avoid such an outcome.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    @reiner Tor



    It’s simple. They kept asking for a Patriot and maybe other stuff like THAAD, but the Americans kept throwing up hurdles.

    One possible reason is Israel: the Americans have a more or less stated official policy of not letting any country in the Middle East be stronger than Israel, so they never sell the Muslims the latest military technologies. With Erdogan’s moderate (?) Islamism and general unreliability, they probably wanted to avoid a situation where Israel would face Turkish Patriot PAC3 and THAAD in Syria.
     
    If this is true then it goes to show just how much America's relationship with this very special country harms us.

    No American interests whatsoever are served by ensuring that Israeli forces are superior to Turkish ones.

    In fact the reverse is true. Israel is a destabilizing, expansionist force in the Middle East which consistently harms America's relations with Islamic states that are more important to both America and especially our European allies.

    I suppose the calculus has changed somewhat recently thanks to the new Israeli-KSA axis and Erdogan's own expansionism. But it hasn't changed enough to justify denying arms exports to Turkey, especially defensive systems.

    Actually selling BMD systems to Turkey would be in line with American policy to create an assured nuclear first strike capability against Russian strategic forces. Admittedly this is an exceptionally stupid policy, but it's worth pointing out that selling BMD systems to Turkey would facilitate this policy.


    Probably the biggest bang for the buck, though I think the Patriot PAC3 plus a THAAD provide better capabilities – albeit for something like five times the money. Except for the 400 km range, which is probably not very useful for the Americans. (Due to the shape of the Earth it only works against very high flying targets, and probably the Americans are correct to assume air superiority anyway.)
     
    PAC3 and THAAD are optimized for BMD work and have inferior performance against combat aircraft. The S-400 also claims excellent BMD capabilities, though these claims are even less tested than America's questionable BMD claims.

    No one will really know how well these systems will perform until the shooting starts, and it's unlikely that the contractors selling the systems would permit honest performance tests by foreign customers.

    The long range of the S-400 is principally useful in area denial of supporting assets like tankers and AEWR aircraft. This is definitely useful against Americans, though presumably in a conflict with America our airpower would have access to Greek and British Cypriot basing reducing the reliance on tankers.


    Even if Turkey didn’t provide the most high tech components for the F-35 program, it still has some details and specifications. Its pilots are already receiving training, so presumably they have a lot of interesting things to tell about its vulnerabilities or as simple things as American tactics.
     
    This is true. Particularly useful information to Russians would be the performance of the aircraft's purportedly advanced avionics (especially sensor fusion) and also maintenance/overhaul requirements (which limit sortie generation).

    That said the USAF itself doesn't believe the F-35 can compete against modern Russian fighters and has complained bitterly about this for the past decade.


    There is something to it (I also read about East German air-to-air missiles and MiG-29 fighters which fell into the hands of the Bundeswehr: Soviet missiles worked better against Western fighters, and vice versa, presumably because both sides developed and tested their own defenses and countermeasures against their own weapons), but I don’t think there’s a silver bullet against any weapons system. The Russians had to fight Soviet (often Russian) weapons the hard way in Georgia and Ukraine, and presumably it’d be the same with the Turkish S-400. Similar to the issues Iranian F-14s posed to the US.
     
    The more technologically complex a weapon is the more useful inside information is in fighting it. You have more of an inside edge fighting against your own SAMs than you do against, say, your own artillery.


    But that’d defeat the purpose of the whole policy against Turkey: the policy intended to starve the Russian MIC of orders would end up providing it with a new customer as well as accelerating the Su-57 development. The Turks might even provide a few ideas or technologies from the F-35, though I already wrote that.

    It’d also be great marketing for Russian military technology (or at least the S-400) if Turkey broke with the West merely to be able to buy it. If I were an American policy maker, I’d probably try to avoid such an outcome.
     
    We'll see. I don't endorse this policy for a variety of reasons, but America has had considerable "success" lately with its weaponized sanctions. This probably leads American policymakers to believe they can successfully achieve their aims through bullying. If Turkey does go on to purchase Su-57s then this policy must be considered a failure.

    I generally support a more commercially oriented foreign policy, and while denying competitors access to markets is part of that, the main plank should be promotion of our own export goods. If what you say about Patriot and THAAD sales to Turkey is correct, then we never should've come to this point to begin with.

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @reiner Tor

    , @LondonBob
    @reiner Tor

    The Israelis detest Erdogan, hence the neocon dislike. Pompeii and Bolton do not inhabit the real world so think they can kick Turkey about without consequences.

    https://indianpunchline.com/us-israel-punish-turkeys-erdogan/

  786. @songbird
    India conducted an anti-satellite missile test a few days ago.

    I'm scratching my head, but I really don't see the point. Might have made sense when the US and the Soviet Union developed the capability, but now spy sats can be the size of brick cellphones - I guess the detail is limited (no license plates), but it is definitely enough to track a carrier or any shipping.

    I guess you could take out large communication satellites, depriving the Middle East of their soaps, but creating a debris field up there would piss a lot of people off. In theory, detonating a nuke in space would be pretty effective, but would piss even more people off.

    It would be relatively easy to destroy rocket infrastructure - the factories, the launching facilities, the brainpower. But then you are probably in a nuclear scenario. Truth be told, I really don't see the point of war with China. To protect Taiwan's right to become super-pozzed and Africanized? To protect the offshore mineral rights of countries with more rational claims?

    IMO, carriers are white elephants, only good for bombing the Third World, which at least for the US and Russia (or anyone with energy reserves) has questionable utility. They were already made obsolete by MAD. They should be replaced with much smaller, drone-launching ships.

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson, @reiner Tor

    spy sats can be the size of brick cellphones

    Don’t they need bigger batteries? But for example destroying GPS/GLONASS/etc. systems is probably still doable.

    • Replies: @songbird
    @reiner Tor

    Good point about GPS.

    Not sure on battery size. They have little solar arrays, so technically they are larger. But they are quite small, possible to produce on an assembly line, mostly from existing components, so they are relatively cheap (<$150,000 in the US, minus launch costs, but you can launch dozens on one medium-sized rocket, though it would take a while to deploy all for blanket coverage).

    One drawback is they have limited lifespan (maybe, 2-3 years) because they need to be deployed low, and there's atmospheric drag even in space. Still, I think they make it a lot more practical to track fleets. IMO, only real countermeasure would be nukes. The radiation gets trapped in the Earth's magnetic field and cycles for a while, frying electronics. Makes me wonder about countermeasures, whether the big sats would be safe from that.

    A nuke in space would probably destroy billions of dollars of assets owned by dozens of countries, as well as cause large scale economic disruption, so it may only be a scenario in WW3. But I suppose that's what it would be, if they were carrier-hunting. But then again, it might be like shooting yourself in the foot - taking out your own satellites. And it would possibly create a lot of trash, since existing sats might not be able to deorbit. I guess that is the danger of war in space - Kessler syndrome.

    Replies: @reiner Tor

  787. @Thorfinnsson
    @reiner Tor

    The US Navy is required by law to maintain eleven carriers in operation. The Navy pulled this exact same stunt in 2016. The purpose of this stunt is to get Congress to increase its budget.

    It's kind of a moot point anyway since we only have nine carrier air wings anyway, and these air wings have considerably shrunk in size and capability in the past generation.

    Elements of the USN are concerned about Chinese "A2AD" weapons, but their official position is that CVBGs remain very difficult targets.

    The Virginia-class submarine is one of the few major procurement successes in this century, and Electric Boat has successfully reduced both the time and cost it takes to deliver a new one. This industrial success is one of the reasons for increased procurement. SSNs are also viewed as useful in hunting down adversary submarine forces, enforcing blockades, and participating in SOCOM operations (important to stay "relevant").

    Overall the Navy's force structure and doctrine is dictated by path dependency, domestic politics, and careerism. It is highly resistant to change. If pressed to explain its unsuitability for fighting China the Navy would probably blame Congress and the DoD for killing the A-12 and N-ATF programs in the 1990s.

    Replies: @reiner Tor

    we only have nine carrier air wings anyway

    Because one of the carriers is in overhaul/repairs/whatever anyway.

    Don’t you know by any chance what the Forbes article talks about as the Chinese “targeting complex,” which would be immediately destroyed in a war?

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    @reiner Tor



    Because one of the carriers is in overhaul/repairs/whatever anyway.
     
    That's true, but there used to be a carrier air wing for every carrier. This was considered useful for replacing losses at sea in war, and it also allowed for more differential combat training time at Top Gun.

    The air wings have also gotten a lot smaller.

    In addition to the legally-mandated 11 carriers, the Navy makes an effort to maximize capital ship hull numbers in order to maximize the number of flag rank officers.

    Owing to the numerous costly procurement disasters in this century (LCS, Gerald Ford class, Zumwalt class), the Navy has made cuts elsewhere (air wings, mine warfare, weapons, etc.) in order to preserve its hull numbers.


    Don’t you know by any chance what the Forbes article talks about as the Chinese “targeting complex,” which would be immediately destroyed in a war?
     
    No, since he doesn't give specifics. I assume he means China's space-based assets because China doesn't yet have substantial maritime ISR assets like patrol aircraft, undersea sensors, ELINT vessels, etc.

    So in a war China's space-based assets (which in any case have limited capability) would be destroyed by anti-satellite weapons, and its land and sea based ISR assets would be unable to venture far beyond the coast without being destroyed.

    https://www.globalsecurity.org/space/world/china/space-surveillance.htm

    The Soviet Navy had vast numbers of maritime patrol aircraft and even the capability to launch on demand polar-orbit reconnaissance satellites to track NATO fleets.

    In a conflict with the US China would quickly be unable to find American fleets except with its nuclear submarines, which would be outnumbered by American ones.

    The PLAN is of course aware of these deficiencies and working to correct them.

    I also assume China has cultivated other forms of naval intelligence deriving from its huge oceanic commerce.

    Replies: @reiner Tor

  788. @Hyperborean
    @songbird


    What would be mundane today was considered exotic back then – a Quebecois seeing a monster flying towards the US in an American film, a British film set in Cornwall, which was considered a place of magic and superstition.
     
    Although I was born long after that, I find it quaint that there was a time in post-war Northern Europe when the weirdest ethnics people could imagine were Greeks, Italians or Yugoslav guest workers, what with their oh-so-crazy food, religion and manners.

    Replies: @for-the-record

    I find it quaint that there was a time in post-war Northern Europe when the weirdest ethnics people could imagine were Greeks, Italians or Yugoslav guest workers

    Apropos:

  789. @reiner Tor
    @Thorfinnsson


    The fact that Turkey wants the S-400 in itself is interesting.
     
    It’s simple. They kept asking for a Patriot and maybe other stuff like THAAD, but the Americans kept throwing up hurdles.

    One possible reason is Israel: the Americans have a more or less stated official policy of not letting any country in the Middle East be stronger than Israel, so they never sell the Muslims the latest military technologies. With Erdogan’s moderate (?) Islamism and general unreliability, they probably wanted to avoid a situation where Israel would face Turkish Patriot PAC3 and THAAD in Syria.

    Another possible reason is simply the Turkish requirement for sharing technology and indigenous production.

    Or they simply didn’t trust Erdogan or even Turkey in general (especially in light of the Turkish refusal to grant airspace for the invasion of Iraq in 2003), regardless of Israel.

    Now, the Turks probably threatened that they would then buy from the Russians, and finally made good on their threats.

    it’s the premier long range surface to air missile system
     
    Probably the biggest bang for the buck, though I think the Patriot PAC3 plus a THAAD provide better capabilities - albeit for something like five times the money. Except for the 400 km range, which is probably not very useful for the Americans. (Due to the shape of the Earth it only works against very high flying targets, and probably the Americans are correct to assume air superiority anyway.)

    As for sharing American technology with Russia,
     
    Even if Turkey didn’t provide the most high tech components for the F-35 program, it still has some details and specifications. Its pilots are already receiving training, so presumably they have a lot of interesting things to tell about its vulnerabilities or as simple things as American tactics.

    the Russians are better aware of how to defeat it than Western forces are
     
    There is something to it (I also read about East German air-to-air missiles and MiG-29 fighters which fell into the hands of the Bundeswehr: Soviet missiles worked better against Western fighters, and vice versa, presumably because both sides developed and tested their own defenses and countermeasures against their own weapons), but I don’t think there’s a silver bullet against any weapons system. The Russians had to fight Soviet (often Russian) weapons the hard way in Georgia and Ukraine, and presumably it’d be the same with the Turkish S-400. Similar to the issues Iranian F-14s posed to the US.

    From that angle they might as well go ahead and make things official. I’ve heard that Su-57 sales to Turkey are being discussed.
     
    But that’d defeat the purpose of the whole policy against Turkey: the policy intended to starve the Russian MIC of orders would end up providing it with a new customer as well as accelerating the Su-57 development. The Turks might even provide a few ideas or technologies from the F-35, though I already wrote that.

    It’d also be great marketing for Russian military technology (or at least the S-400) if Turkey broke with the West merely to be able to buy it. If I were an American policy maker, I’d probably try to avoid such an outcome.

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson, @LondonBob

    It’s simple. They kept asking for a Patriot and maybe other stuff like THAAD, but the Americans kept throwing up hurdles.

    One possible reason is Israel: the Americans have a more or less stated official policy of not letting any country in the Middle East be stronger than Israel, so they never sell the Muslims the latest military technologies. With Erdogan’s moderate (?) Islamism and general unreliability, they probably wanted to avoid a situation where Israel would face Turkish Patriot PAC3 and THAAD in Syria.

    If this is true then it goes to show just how much America’s relationship with this very special country harms us.

    No American interests whatsoever are served by ensuring that Israeli forces are superior to Turkish ones.

    In fact the reverse is true. Israel is a destabilizing, expansionist force in the Middle East which consistently harms America’s relations with Islamic states that are more important to both America and especially our European allies.

    I suppose the calculus has changed somewhat recently thanks to the new Israeli-KSA axis and Erdogan’s own expansionism. But it hasn’t changed enough to justify denying arms exports to Turkey, especially defensive systems.

    Actually selling BMD systems to Turkey would be in line with American policy to create an assured nuclear first strike capability against Russian strategic forces. Admittedly this is an exceptionally stupid policy, but it’s worth pointing out that selling BMD systems to Turkey would facilitate this policy.

    Probably the biggest bang for the buck, though I think the Patriot PAC3 plus a THAAD provide better capabilities – albeit for something like five times the money. Except for the 400 km range, which is probably not very useful for the Americans. (Due to the shape of the Earth it only works against very high flying targets, and probably the Americans are correct to assume air superiority anyway.)

    PAC3 and THAAD are optimized for BMD work and have inferior performance against combat aircraft. The S-400 also claims excellent BMD capabilities, though these claims are even less tested than America’s questionable BMD claims.

    No one will really know how well these systems will perform until the shooting starts, and it’s unlikely that the contractors selling the systems would permit honest performance tests by foreign customers.

    The long range of the S-400 is principally useful in area denial of supporting assets like tankers and AEWR aircraft. This is definitely useful against Americans, though presumably in a conflict with America our airpower would have access to Greek and British Cypriot basing reducing the reliance on tankers.

    Even if Turkey didn’t provide the most high tech components for the F-35 program, it still has some details and specifications. Its pilots are already receiving training, so presumably they have a lot of interesting things to tell about its vulnerabilities or as simple things as American tactics.

    This is true. Particularly useful information to Russians would be the performance of the aircraft’s purportedly advanced avionics (especially sensor fusion) and also maintenance/overhaul requirements (which limit sortie generation).

    That said the USAF itself doesn’t believe the F-35 can compete against modern Russian fighters and has complained bitterly about this for the past decade.

    There is something to it (I also read about East German air-to-air missiles and MiG-29 fighters which fell into the hands of the Bundeswehr: Soviet missiles worked better against Western fighters, and vice versa, presumably because both sides developed and tested their own defenses and countermeasures against their own weapons), but I don’t think there’s a silver bullet against any weapons system. The Russians had to fight Soviet (often Russian) weapons the hard way in Georgia and Ukraine, and presumably it’d be the same with the Turkish S-400. Similar to the issues Iranian F-14s posed to the US.

    The more technologically complex a weapon is the more useful inside information is in fighting it. You have more of an inside edge fighting against your own SAMs than you do against, say, your own artillery.

    But that’d defeat the purpose of the whole policy against Turkey: the policy intended to starve the Russian MIC of orders would end up providing it with a new customer as well as accelerating the Su-57 development. The Turks might even provide a few ideas or technologies from the F-35, though I already wrote that.

    It’d also be great marketing for Russian military technology (or at least the S-400) if Turkey broke with the West merely to be able to buy it. If I were an American policy maker, I’d probably try to avoid such an outcome.

    We’ll see. I don’t endorse this policy for a variety of reasons, but America has had considerable “success” lately with its weaponized sanctions. This probably leads American policymakers to believe they can successfully achieve their aims through bullying. If Turkey does go on to purchase Su-57s then this policy must be considered a failure.

    I generally support a more commercially oriented foreign policy, and while denying competitors access to markets is part of that, the main plank should be promotion of our own export goods. If what you say about Patriot and THAAD sales to Turkey is correct, then we never should’ve come to this point to begin with.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @Thorfinnsson

    I’m sure the Turks wanted to buy the Patriot PAC3, I’m not sure about the THAAD, I only mentioned it, because without it the Patriot doesn’t provide equivalent capabilities.

    , @reiner Tor
    @Thorfinnsson


    PAC3 and THAAD are optimized for BMD work and have inferior performance against combat aircraft.
     
    I think PAC1 was already fairly good against combat aircraft. Yes, THAAD is mostly for anti-missile defense.
  790. @reiner Tor
    @Thorfinnsson


    we only have nine carrier air wings anyway
     
    Because one of the carriers is in overhaul/repairs/whatever anyway.

    Don’t you know by any chance what the Forbes article talks about as the Chinese “targeting complex,” which would be immediately destroyed in a war?

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson

    Because one of the carriers is in overhaul/repairs/whatever anyway.

    That’s true, but there used to be a carrier air wing for every carrier. This was considered useful for replacing losses at sea in war, and it also allowed for more differential combat training time at Top Gun.

    The air wings have also gotten a lot smaller.

    In addition to the legally-mandated 11 carriers, the Navy makes an effort to maximize capital ship hull numbers in order to maximize the number of flag rank officers.

    Owing to the numerous costly procurement disasters in this century (LCS, Gerald Ford class, Zumwalt class), the Navy has made cuts elsewhere (air wings, mine warfare, weapons, etc.) in order to preserve its hull numbers.

    Don’t you know by any chance what the Forbes article talks about as the Chinese “targeting complex,” which would be immediately destroyed in a war?

    No, since he doesn’t give specifics. I assume he means China’s space-based assets because China doesn’t yet have substantial maritime ISR assets like patrol aircraft, undersea sensors, ELINT vessels, etc.

    So in a war China’s space-based assets (which in any case have limited capability) would be destroyed by anti-satellite weapons, and its land and sea based ISR assets would be unable to venture far beyond the coast without being destroyed.

    https://www.globalsecurity.org/space/world/china/space-surveillance.htm

    The Soviet Navy had vast numbers of maritime patrol aircraft and even the capability to launch on demand polar-orbit reconnaissance satellites to track NATO fleets.

    In a conflict with the US China would quickly be unable to find American fleets except with its nuclear submarines, which would be outnumbered by American ones.

    The PLAN is of course aware of these deficiencies and working to correct them.

    I also assume China has cultivated other forms of naval intelligence deriving from its huge oceanic commerce.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @Thorfinnsson


    China has cultivated other forms of naval intelligence deriving from its huge oceanic commerce
     
    Could they use it in a war? I seriously doubt it. I think in a war zone, all commercial vessels would be told to leave on short notice, and probably they'd be sunk by patrolling American aircraft and naval vessels immediately (and if there's an international scandal, they'd blame the Chinese for it).

    You can use small fishing or commercial vessels for this purpose in a smaller war, but I doubt in a serious war with China (which is basically a world war already, or almost a world war) they would run that risk.

    But I still don't get the US Navy's confidence here. I'd guess the Chinese have prepared spy satellites with their launchers (shouldn't be bigger than an ICBM, in fact smaller), which could then be used to launch such satellites very quickly and dispatch the information to the ASM sites. Unless the low flying satellites could be destroyed immediately the Chinese can already easily target. And even if they manage to take it down within a few minutes of the launch (by that time the important information could easily be dispatched to the ASM sites), the Chinese can launch another one shortly before the anti-ship missile arrives within a few minutes of the target area and dispatch the updated position of the naval vessels in question.

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson

  791. @Thorfinnsson
    @reiner Tor



    It’s simple. They kept asking for a Patriot and maybe other stuff like THAAD, but the Americans kept throwing up hurdles.

    One possible reason is Israel: the Americans have a more or less stated official policy of not letting any country in the Middle East be stronger than Israel, so they never sell the Muslims the latest military technologies. With Erdogan’s moderate (?) Islamism and general unreliability, they probably wanted to avoid a situation where Israel would face Turkish Patriot PAC3 and THAAD in Syria.
     
    If this is true then it goes to show just how much America's relationship with this very special country harms us.

    No American interests whatsoever are served by ensuring that Israeli forces are superior to Turkish ones.

    In fact the reverse is true. Israel is a destabilizing, expansionist force in the Middle East which consistently harms America's relations with Islamic states that are more important to both America and especially our European allies.

    I suppose the calculus has changed somewhat recently thanks to the new Israeli-KSA axis and Erdogan's own expansionism. But it hasn't changed enough to justify denying arms exports to Turkey, especially defensive systems.

    Actually selling BMD systems to Turkey would be in line with American policy to create an assured nuclear first strike capability against Russian strategic forces. Admittedly this is an exceptionally stupid policy, but it's worth pointing out that selling BMD systems to Turkey would facilitate this policy.


    Probably the biggest bang for the buck, though I think the Patriot PAC3 plus a THAAD provide better capabilities – albeit for something like five times the money. Except for the 400 km range, which is probably not very useful for the Americans. (Due to the shape of the Earth it only works against very high flying targets, and probably the Americans are correct to assume air superiority anyway.)
     
    PAC3 and THAAD are optimized for BMD work and have inferior performance against combat aircraft. The S-400 also claims excellent BMD capabilities, though these claims are even less tested than America's questionable BMD claims.

    No one will really know how well these systems will perform until the shooting starts, and it's unlikely that the contractors selling the systems would permit honest performance tests by foreign customers.

    The long range of the S-400 is principally useful in area denial of supporting assets like tankers and AEWR aircraft. This is definitely useful against Americans, though presumably in a conflict with America our airpower would have access to Greek and British Cypriot basing reducing the reliance on tankers.


    Even if Turkey didn’t provide the most high tech components for the F-35 program, it still has some details and specifications. Its pilots are already receiving training, so presumably they have a lot of interesting things to tell about its vulnerabilities or as simple things as American tactics.
     
    This is true. Particularly useful information to Russians would be the performance of the aircraft's purportedly advanced avionics (especially sensor fusion) and also maintenance/overhaul requirements (which limit sortie generation).

    That said the USAF itself doesn't believe the F-35 can compete against modern Russian fighters and has complained bitterly about this for the past decade.


    There is something to it (I also read about East German air-to-air missiles and MiG-29 fighters which fell into the hands of the Bundeswehr: Soviet missiles worked better against Western fighters, and vice versa, presumably because both sides developed and tested their own defenses and countermeasures against their own weapons), but I don’t think there’s a silver bullet against any weapons system. The Russians had to fight Soviet (often Russian) weapons the hard way in Georgia and Ukraine, and presumably it’d be the same with the Turkish S-400. Similar to the issues Iranian F-14s posed to the US.
     
    The more technologically complex a weapon is the more useful inside information is in fighting it. You have more of an inside edge fighting against your own SAMs than you do against, say, your own artillery.


    But that’d defeat the purpose of the whole policy against Turkey: the policy intended to starve the Russian MIC of orders would end up providing it with a new customer as well as accelerating the Su-57 development. The Turks might even provide a few ideas or technologies from the F-35, though I already wrote that.

    It’d also be great marketing for Russian military technology (or at least the S-400) if Turkey broke with the West merely to be able to buy it. If I were an American policy maker, I’d probably try to avoid such an outcome.
     
    We'll see. I don't endorse this policy for a variety of reasons, but America has had considerable "success" lately with its weaponized sanctions. This probably leads American policymakers to believe they can successfully achieve their aims through bullying. If Turkey does go on to purchase Su-57s then this policy must be considered a failure.

    I generally support a more commercially oriented foreign policy, and while denying competitors access to markets is part of that, the main plank should be promotion of our own export goods. If what you say about Patriot and THAAD sales to Turkey is correct, then we never should've come to this point to begin with.

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @reiner Tor

    I’m sure the Turks wanted to buy the Patriot PAC3, I’m not sure about the THAAD, I only mentioned it, because without it the Patriot doesn’t provide equivalent capabilities.

  792. @Mitleser
    @Thorfinnsson


    This suggests that Turkey doesn’t see Russia as being a threat and is actually defending itself from Western powers like Greece, Israel, the USA, France, and the UK.
     
    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DyfdzC8WkAEbbuk.jpg

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DyfeAR1WwAAnfCt.jpg

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DyfeCL1X0AUpPyY.jpg

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson, @songbird

    A number of years ago – perhaps during Bush 43 – there was a Turkish bestseller in the fashion of a Tom Clancy novel, where a foreign enemy invaded Turkey and was driven out by patriotic Turks. The foreign enemy was the USA.

    Makes sense to me. I mean, some of Tom Clancy’s scenarios were even more fantastical. But, still, I’d like see Turkey dropped as an ally. They are really just the successor to the Ottomans, more civilizationally at odds with us than the Russians ever were. Besides, I think having them in NATO encourages the people who want to incorporate them into Europe.

    • Agree: RadicalCenter
    • Replies: @Mitleser
    @songbird

    I don't think there is a way to kick them out of NATO.
    They will only leave if they want to.

    Replies: @reiner Tor

  793. @reiner Tor
    @songbird


    spy sats can be the size of brick cellphones
     
    Don’t they need bigger batteries? But for example destroying GPS/GLONASS/etc. systems is probably still doable.

    Replies: @songbird

    Good point about GPS.

    Not sure on battery size. They have little solar arrays, so technically they are larger. But they are quite small, possible to produce on an assembly line, mostly from existing components, so they are relatively cheap (<$150,000 in the US, minus launch costs, but you can launch dozens on one medium-sized rocket, though it would take a while to deploy all for blanket coverage).

    One drawback is they have limited lifespan (maybe, 2-3 years) because they need to be deployed low, and there's atmospheric drag even in space. Still, I think they make it a lot more practical to track fleets. IMO, only real countermeasure would be nukes. The radiation gets trapped in the Earth's magnetic field and cycles for a while, frying electronics. Makes me wonder about countermeasures, whether the big sats would be safe from that.

    A nuke in space would probably destroy billions of dollars of assets owned by dozens of countries, as well as cause large scale economic disruption, so it may only be a scenario in WW3. But I suppose that's what it would be, if they were carrier-hunting. But then again, it might be like shooting yourself in the foot – taking out your own satellites. And it would possibly create a lot of trash, since existing sats might not be able to deorbit. I guess that is the danger of war in space – Kessler syndrome.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @songbird

    I’m not sure small satellites cannot be found and destroyed one by one. A lot of it is just a question of electronics, which is way better now than it was during the Cold War.

    I’m very cautious declaring things about military technology, because in the past I have made statements and predictions which turned out to be less sure to be true later on.

    Even the American strike against Syria last April. A lot of us here (including me) then concluded that the Russians or Syrians might have downed a large number of Tomahawks. I think it’s pretty unlikely at this point that the Russian version was true. We have not seen any signs of downed missiles, except two of them. I think it’s likely that the vast majority of the missiles or bombs hit their intended targets. (Even if those targets were stupid things like empty warehouses.)

  794. @Thorfinnsson
    @songbird

    The rational point of confronting China is that if China succeeds in driving US forces out of the Western Pacific and vassalizing America's client states in the region it will then be in a position to project naval power into the Western hemisphere. The oldest constant of American strategy is to exclude rival powers from the Western hemisphere, and since the late 1930s it has been American policy to dominate the axial ends of Eurasia to prevent even the possibility of this.

    The vassalization of American client states in the Western Pacific would also put them in a position to transfer extremely advanced technology to the PRC which is currently not permitted. I'm skeptical of how useful these technology export restrictions are (Japan and South Korea barely honor them and China is increasingly advanced on its own), but they're taken seriously by US policymakers.

    Less rationally (from a POV of national strategy) the China threat provides many benefits such as:

    • Maintaining the status quo (change is hard and scary)
    • Fat military procurement contracts
    • Substantial career opportunities for officers, including many flag officer ranks
    • Lucrative industry funded sinecures for policymakers and academics
    • Empire by itself is fun and satisfies deep human desires

    I'm receptive to the view that containing China within the Western Pacific increases American security, but the costs and risks of this need to be seriously assessed in light of possible alternatives. In a way this a very old argument. Charles Lindbergh always maintained that armed neutrality would be cheaper in blood and treasure for hemispheric defense.

    As far as carriers go, maybe. It has never actually been demonstrated that carriers are obsolete, only suggested. The same weapons which threaten carriers are themselves employed by carriers for both offense and defense, so in a way nothing has changed. That said US carrier battle groups are inappropriately designed, particularly their air wings.

    The alternative to carriers would be Doenitz's vision. More submarines and land-based aircraft, which also means more bases, tankers, etc. The Navy would probably point out that tankers and long-range bombers are a lot more vulnerable than CVBGs when operating far from allied basing.

    Replies: @songbird

    Good point about the MIC.

    My preferred strategy would be to give the Japs nukes, and the Koreans an 8-year notice that we a pulling out. Savings would accrue to taxpayers, or else be invested in more realistic problems, like declining white fertility. (of course, the Cathedral would not admit this problem exists, so difficult to turn into US policy.)

    The Chinese, of course, have a serious fertility problem. I think this makes them unlikely to be expansive, but as a general naval strategy, I think I would prefer more hulls for the same cost as a carrier.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @songbird


    give the Japs nukes
     
    Scrapping the NPT has lots of drawbacks. The larger the number of nuclear powers (and nukes), the larger the probability of a nuclear war. Even if it wouldn’t end the world, it’d be pretty horrible. A local nuclear conflict would lower the nuclear threshold among other nuclear powers as well.

    It’s probably not possible to allow Japan to build nukes, but keep the NPT for others.
    , @Thorfinnsson
    @songbird

    Japan is a paranuclear state as it is. It possesses ample stocks of weapons-grade material, a complete nuclear-industrial base, and even the appropriate delivery systems (Japan has solid-fuel ballistic missiles and reentry vehicles). This is well known to everyone, and in fact Iran has stated that its strategic goal is to be like Japan.

    As Reiner Tor stated, actually encouraging the overthrow of the NPT is likely to have dubious global consequences. Admittedly this might be inevitable, but not a good idea to give it a push.

    The solution to Korea is a denuclearized, neutralized, and unified federal Korean state with security guaranteed by China, Russia, Japan, and the United States. This country will be a de facto Chinese vassal, but that's better than the destabilizing presence of American forces on the Korean peninsula.

    I think the Japanese alliance is worth maintaining provided that the Japanese respect our commercial interests. Historically they have not done so, but this was done with the connivance of American policymakers and in the absence of a substantial Chinese threat.

    Taiwan is unwilling to even defend itself and as such should simply be sold to China. Chinese aeronaval forces on Taiwan are undesirable, but the present situation is inherently unstable and likely to lead to war.

    Taiwan is undergoing ethnogenesis and pozzing at the same time. This has the potential to lead to a Catalonian-style FUCK YOU DAD independence movement which would lead the PRC to declare war. Today Taiwan still has some possibility of winning that war (seriously), but that won't be true much longer. As you hinted at earlier, going to war to protect a bunch of faggots isn't a bright idea even if we win.

    The deterioration of the geographic situation can be dealt with by (further) militarizing the island chains of the Central Pacific. Potentially the Philippines can be drawn once again into the American orbit.

    A Chinese annexation of Taiwan is also likely to cause internal problems with digestion and a further deterioration of its relations with neighboring states.

    I suppose one downside of selling Taiwan to China is how other Asian countries would perceive America in the aftermath. Will the FAKE AND GAY argument be accepted by policymakers in other countries?

  795. @songbird
    @reiner Tor

    Good point about GPS.

    Not sure on battery size. They have little solar arrays, so technically they are larger. But they are quite small, possible to produce on an assembly line, mostly from existing components, so they are relatively cheap (<$150,000 in the US, minus launch costs, but you can launch dozens on one medium-sized rocket, though it would take a while to deploy all for blanket coverage).

    One drawback is they have limited lifespan (maybe, 2-3 years) because they need to be deployed low, and there's atmospheric drag even in space. Still, I think they make it a lot more practical to track fleets. IMO, only real countermeasure would be nukes. The radiation gets trapped in the Earth's magnetic field and cycles for a while, frying electronics. Makes me wonder about countermeasures, whether the big sats would be safe from that.

    A nuke in space would probably destroy billions of dollars of assets owned by dozens of countries, as well as cause large scale economic disruption, so it may only be a scenario in WW3. But I suppose that's what it would be, if they were carrier-hunting. But then again, it might be like shooting yourself in the foot - taking out your own satellites. And it would possibly create a lot of trash, since existing sats might not be able to deorbit. I guess that is the danger of war in space - Kessler syndrome.

    Replies: @reiner Tor

    I’m not sure small satellites cannot be found and destroyed one by one. A lot of it is just a question of electronics, which is way better now than it was during the Cold War.

    I’m very cautious declaring things about military technology, because in the past I have made statements and predictions which turned out to be less sure to be true later on.

    Even the American strike against Syria last April. A lot of us here (including me) then concluded that the Russians or Syrians might have downed a large number of Tomahawks. I think it’s pretty unlikely at this point that the Russian version was true. We have not seen any signs of downed missiles, except two of them. I think it’s likely that the vast majority of the missiles or bombs hit their intended targets. (Even if those targets were stupid things like empty warehouses.)

  796. @songbird
    @Thorfinnsson

    Good point about the MIC.

    My preferred strategy would be to give the Japs nukes, and the Koreans an 8-year notice that we a pulling out. Savings would accrue to taxpayers, or else be invested in more realistic problems, like declining white fertility. (of course, the Cathedral would not admit this problem exists, so difficult to turn into US policy.)

    The Chinese, of course, have a serious fertility problem. I think this makes them unlikely to be expansive, but as a general naval strategy, I think I would prefer more hulls for the same cost as a carrier.

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @Thorfinnsson

    give the Japs nukes

    Scrapping the NPT has lots of drawbacks. The larger the number of nuclear powers (and nukes), the larger the probability of a nuclear war. Even if it wouldn’t end the world, it’d be pretty horrible. A local nuclear conflict would lower the nuclear threshold among other nuclear powers as well.

    It’s probably not possible to allow Japan to build nukes, but keep the NPT for others.

  797. @songbird
    @Mitleser

    A number of years ago - perhaps during Bush 43 - there was a Turkish bestseller in the fashion of a Tom Clancy novel, where a foreign enemy invaded Turkey and was driven out by patriotic Turks. The foreign enemy was the USA.

    Makes sense to me. I mean, some of Tom Clancy's scenarios were even more fantastical. But, still, I'd like see Turkey dropped as an ally. They are really just the successor to the Ottomans, more civilizationally at odds with us than the Russians ever were. Besides, I think having them in NATO encourages the people who want to incorporate them into Europe.

    Replies: @Mitleser

    I don’t think there is a way to kick them out of NATO.
    They will only leave if they want to.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @Mitleser

    It’d be possible if there was a political will. It’s like saying that the mugger cannot legally take your possessions. Mkay.

  798. I found this on the Russian civilian aviation industry and the lack of government support for it.

    https://southfront.org/mc-21-project-and-strange-logic-of-russian-government/

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    @reiner Tor

    I'm reminded of the failure of Britain's postwar industrial strategy for airliners.

    For some strange reason the government refused to compel BOAC to purchase British aircraft. BOAC purchased Lockheed Connies, Boeing Stratocruisers, Douglas DC-4s and DC-7s, and finally of course Boeing 707s.

    This was done despite a chronic shortage of Dollars, the existence of suitable British types (or types with development potential), and the existence of a government industrial strategy to compete in the world airliner market (the Brabazon Committee).

    The acquisition of large, pressurized American airliners immediately after the end of the war was perhaps justifiable as British equivalents did not yet exist (the Avro Tudor was much smaller than the Connie). Continuing to purchase American aircraft in the '50s was absurd. Even the Bristol Brabazon, supposedly a white elephant, probably could've succeeded with a high capacity cabin layout (instead of only carrying 2/3rd more passengers than a Connie in a plane the size of a modern wide body).

    In light of the fact that BOAC was owned by the crown and that Sterling was not freely convertible in this era, it would've been exceedingly simple to force BOAC to purchase British aircraft.

    In the end only the Vickers Viscount became a major success.

    Replies: @LondonBob, @DFH

    , @Mitleser
    @reiner Tor

    I would call that lack of government support if the MC-21 serial production was already reality
    But it is not.


    The MC-21, Russia’s advanced narrow-body airliner programme being developed by the United Aircraft Corporation (UAC), which is now part of Rostec, remains under the close supervision of the country’s government, which is also continuing to contribute sponsorship funds directly from the federal budget.

    The latest allocation of state funds authorised by government decree and which came into effect today (February 6), is in line with the government’s aim to support Russia’s emerging aerospace industry in the period between 2013 and 2025. It provides for a total of 10.5 billion roubles (US$160 million) of state subsidies within the next three years for the MC-21.

    This year’s injection of 1.6 billion roubles, plus a further 4.11 billion in 2020 and 4.81 billion in 2021, will cover up to 90 per cent of the manufacturer’s production, sales and after-sales support costs, as well as 90 per cent of interest payments on loans associated with the programme. Also eligible are the costs of flight simulators, ground-handling equipment and spare parts inventories.
     
    http://www.rusaviainsider.com/russian-government-allocates-additional-10-5-billion-roubles-mc-21-project/

    Replies: @reiner Tor

  799. @Mitleser
    @reiner Tor

    The claim that "production is collapsing due to the significant decrease of defense procurement" is false.

    For instance, the SSJ production significantly declined from 33 to 24, but that was not related to defense procurement.

    Production of Su-30SM and Su-35 declined, but that was to be expected because state orders are mostly fulfilled and the focus is now shifting to the Su-57 whose serial production starts in 2019.

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @reiner Tor

    The guy also shared this:

    https://tass.ru/ekonomika/6303731

    So apparently there is a serious drop in production. What is going on? It’s interesting that Putin does very little to support the local aviation industry.

    • Replies: @Mitleser
    @reiner Tor

    Why did he share that? That is just TASS quoting the RBC article.

    Replies: @reiner Tor

  800. @Mitleser
    @songbird

    I don't think there is a way to kick them out of NATO.
    They will only leave if they want to.

    Replies: @reiner Tor

    It’d be possible if there was a political will. It’s like saying that the mugger cannot legally take your possessions. Mkay.

  801. @songbird
    @Thorfinnsson

    Good point about the MIC.

    My preferred strategy would be to give the Japs nukes, and the Koreans an 8-year notice that we a pulling out. Savings would accrue to taxpayers, or else be invested in more realistic problems, like declining white fertility. (of course, the Cathedral would not admit this problem exists, so difficult to turn into US policy.)

    The Chinese, of course, have a serious fertility problem. I think this makes them unlikely to be expansive, but as a general naval strategy, I think I would prefer more hulls for the same cost as a carrier.

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @Thorfinnsson

    Japan is a paranuclear state as it is. It possesses ample stocks of weapons-grade material, a complete nuclear-industrial base, and even the appropriate delivery systems (Japan has solid-fuel ballistic missiles and reentry vehicles). This is well known to everyone, and in fact Iran has stated that its strategic goal is to be like Japan.

    As Reiner Tor stated, actually encouraging the overthrow of the NPT is likely to have dubious global consequences. Admittedly this might be inevitable, but not a good idea to give it a push.

    The solution to Korea is a denuclearized, neutralized, and unified federal Korean state with security guaranteed by China, Russia, Japan, and the United States. This country will be a de facto Chinese vassal, but that’s better than the destabilizing presence of American forces on the Korean peninsula.

    I think the Japanese alliance is worth maintaining provided that the Japanese respect our commercial interests. Historically they have not done so, but this was done with the connivance of American policymakers and in the absence of a substantial Chinese threat.

    Taiwan is unwilling to even defend itself and as such should simply be sold to China. Chinese aeronaval forces on Taiwan are undesirable, but the present situation is inherently unstable and likely to lead to war.

    Taiwan is undergoing ethnogenesis and pozzing at the same time. This has the potential to lead to a Catalonian-style FUCK YOU DAD independence movement which would lead the PRC to declare war. Today Taiwan still has some possibility of winning that war (seriously), but that won’t be true much longer. As you hinted at earlier, going to war to protect a bunch of faggots isn’t a bright idea even if we win.

    The deterioration of the geographic situation can be dealt with by (further) militarizing the island chains of the Central Pacific. Potentially the Philippines can be drawn once again into the American orbit.

    A Chinese annexation of Taiwan is also likely to cause internal problems with digestion and a further deterioration of its relations with neighboring states.

    I suppose one downside of selling Taiwan to China is how other Asian countries would perceive America in the aftermath. Will the FAKE AND GAY argument be accepted by policymakers in other countries?

  802. @reiner Tor
    I found this on the Russian civilian aviation industry and the lack of government support for it.

    https://southfront.org/mc-21-project-and-strange-logic-of-russian-government/

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson, @Mitleser

    I’m reminded of the failure of Britain’s postwar industrial strategy for airliners.

    For some strange reason the government refused to compel BOAC to purchase British aircraft. BOAC purchased Lockheed Connies, Boeing Stratocruisers, Douglas DC-4s and DC-7s, and finally of course Boeing 707s.

    This was done despite a chronic shortage of Dollars, the existence of suitable British types (or types with development potential), and the existence of a government industrial strategy to compete in the world airliner market (the Brabazon Committee).

    The acquisition of large, pressurized American airliners immediately after the end of the war was perhaps justifiable as British equivalents did not yet exist (the Avro Tudor was much smaller than the Connie). Continuing to purchase American aircraft in the ’50s was absurd. Even the Bristol Brabazon, supposedly a white elephant, probably could’ve succeeded with a high capacity cabin layout (instead of only carrying 2/3rd more passengers than a Connie in a plane the size of a modern wide body).

    In light of the fact that BOAC was owned by the crown and that Sterling was not freely convertible in this era, it would’ve been exceedingly simple to force BOAC to purchase British aircraft.

    In the end only the Vickers Viscount became a major success.

    • Replies: @LondonBob
    @Thorfinnsson

    Whilst the Viscount, Comet and VC 10 were all innovative ultimately only the Viscount racked up significant sales, with the others being flawed in some way deterring international buyers. BOAC had to compete internationally and couldn't carry the British commercial airliner industry on its own. There was a good documentary on this recently.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/tvandradio/9507019/Jet-When-Britain-Ruled-the-Skies-BBC-Four-review.html

    , @DFH
    @Thorfinnsson

    Have you ever read Corelli Barnett's books? He is very good on the subject of the failures of British industrial strategy after the war (amongst other things)

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson

  803. @reiner Tor
    @Mitleser

    The guy also shared this:

    https://tass.ru/ekonomika/6303731

    So apparently there is a serious drop in production. What is going on? It’s interesting that Putin does very little to support the local aviation industry.

    Replies: @Mitleser

    Why did he share that? That is just TASS quoting the RBC article.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @Mitleser

    Some people asked for more sources.

  804. @reiner Tor
    I found this on the Russian civilian aviation industry and the lack of government support for it.

    https://southfront.org/mc-21-project-and-strange-logic-of-russian-government/

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson, @Mitleser

    I would call that lack of government support if the MC-21 serial production was already reality
    But it is not.

    The MC-21, Russia’s advanced narrow-body airliner programme being developed by the United Aircraft Corporation (UAC), which is now part of Rostec, remains under the close supervision of the country’s government, which is also continuing to contribute sponsorship funds directly from the federal budget.

    The latest allocation of state funds authorised by government decree and which came into effect today (February 6), is in line with the government’s aim to support Russia’s emerging aerospace industry in the period between 2013 and 2025. It provides for a total of 10.5 billion roubles (US$160 million) of state subsidies within the next three years for the MC-21.

    This year’s injection of 1.6 billion roubles, plus a further 4.11 billion in 2020 and 4.81 billion in 2021, will cover up to 90 per cent of the manufacturer’s production, sales and after-sales support costs, as well as 90 per cent of interest payments on loans associated with the programme. Also eligible are the costs of flight simulators, ground-handling equipment and spare parts inventories.

    http://www.rusaviainsider.com/russian-government-allocates-additional-10-5-billion-roubles-mc-21-project/

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @Mitleser

    They have to wait years for the 737 MAX deliveries anyway. If there was any delay, they could just temporarily lease a few planes in the meantime until serial production of the MC-21 starts.

    Replies: @Mitleser

  805. @songbird
    @Hyperborean

    I like old British and American films too. Very few had blacks in them. What would be mundane today was considered exotic back then - a Quebecois seeing a monster flying towards the US in an American film, a British film set in Cornwall, which was considered a place of magic and superstition.

    It is sad that they shot a lot in studio and did not capture more places on film.

    I also appreciate the accents, though there was a tendency in America to make them up, and Britain had a definite preference for upper class ones.

    Replies: @Hyperborean, @Dmitry

    I saw this old Hollywood film last month, Mr Hack recommended: “Cat on a hot tin roof”.

    The grammar of how they speak sometimes was different to modern English.

    I thought it is more informal, missing some words, sometimes not saying the subject of the sentence, and more difficult to understand for parts. There is a section here:

    Very few had blacks in them. What would be mundane today was considered exotic back then

    In “Cat on a hot tin roof”, blacks are there only as servants.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @Dmitry

    The accents in the film are decidedly Southern ones, hence the 'difference from modern English'. Whenever I think I have it bad as a single man, I just need to revisit this film and remember the 'bliss of married life'. Thorfinnsson, no doubt would enjoy watching it too, as Elizabeth Taylor gives a great performance (and her rack looks quite nice too!) :-)

    , @Anonymous
    @Dmitry

    Tennessee Williams is not somebody I'd be recommending for an intermediate English learner; his stuff is too heavy in colloquialisms and metaphors and figures of speech. And he's even harder to parse in film than in written form. Most modern Americans wouldn't really understand what his characters are saying.

    Replies: @Dmitry

    , @songbird
    @Dmitry

    This movie I would consider early modern, based on the subject matter: unhappy marriage, and homosexuality. I'm actually a bit surprised it came out as early as 1958. It is interesting how they started pushing some of these things out in the late '50s, despite the Hays Code. One infamous example, is "Ben Hur" (1959) in which Gore Vidal inserted a homosexual subtext.

    I'm generally not too big on theatrical adaptations. I feel they are overacted. And generally, I think that the political compass of theater is even worse than Hollywood. I recall seeing "The Merchant of Venice" in a theater when I was a kid - two men French kissed. The Macy's Thanksgiving Day Parade, is really exceptionally gay - of course a lot of that is based of musicals, which is probably even worse than theater.

    Replies: @Dmitry

  806. @Dmitry
    @songbird

    I saw this old Hollywood film last month, Mr Hack recommended: "Cat on a hot tin roof".

    The grammar of how they speak sometimes was different to modern English.

    I thought it is more informal, missing some words, sometimes not saying the subject of the sentence, and more difficult to understand for parts. There is a section here:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jy59f_rp3D0


    Very few had blacks in them. What would be mundane today was considered exotic back then
     
    In "Cat on a hot tin roof", blacks are there only as servants.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @Anonymous, @songbird

    The accents in the film are decidedly Southern ones, hence the ‘difference from modern English’. Whenever I think I have it bad as a single man, I just need to revisit this film and remember the ‘bliss of married life’. Thorfinnsson, no doubt would enjoy watching it too, as Elizabeth Taylor gives a great performance (and her rack looks quite nice too!) 🙂

  807. We should not fear ‘editing’ embryos to enhance human intelligence, says leading geneticist George Church

    isn’t that cute, its always about “fear”

    if i dont get my way its because all of you are cowards

  808. @Mitleser
    @reiner Tor

    Why did he share that? That is just TASS quoting the RBC article.

    Replies: @reiner Tor

    Some people asked for more sources.

  809. Anonymous[151] • Disclaimer says:
    @Dmitry
    @songbird

    I saw this old Hollywood film last month, Mr Hack recommended: "Cat on a hot tin roof".

    The grammar of how they speak sometimes was different to modern English.

    I thought it is more informal, missing some words, sometimes not saying the subject of the sentence, and more difficult to understand for parts. There is a section here:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jy59f_rp3D0


    Very few had blacks in them. What would be mundane today was considered exotic back then
     
    In "Cat on a hot tin roof", blacks are there only as servants.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @Anonymous, @songbird

    Tennessee Williams is not somebody I’d be recommending for an intermediate English learner; his stuff is too heavy in colloquialisms and metaphors and figures of speech. And he’s even harder to parse in film than in written form. Most modern Americans wouldn’t really understand what his characters are saying.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @Anonymous

    I think I could understand all of the language .

    It's an interesting culture shock to see Hollywood would just film a play in 1958, without even varying the house scenery for two hours.

    Nowadays, since Avatar, even the camera has to constantly move and change place every 5 seconds, like an audience is expected to have so much attention deficit they need constant movement not to leave the cinema in boredom.

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh, @Hyperborean

  810. @Thorfinnsson
    @reiner Tor



    It’s simple. They kept asking for a Patriot and maybe other stuff like THAAD, but the Americans kept throwing up hurdles.

    One possible reason is Israel: the Americans have a more or less stated official policy of not letting any country in the Middle East be stronger than Israel, so they never sell the Muslims the latest military technologies. With Erdogan’s moderate (?) Islamism and general unreliability, they probably wanted to avoid a situation where Israel would face Turkish Patriot PAC3 and THAAD in Syria.
     
    If this is true then it goes to show just how much America's relationship with this very special country harms us.

    No American interests whatsoever are served by ensuring that Israeli forces are superior to Turkish ones.

    In fact the reverse is true. Israel is a destabilizing, expansionist force in the Middle East which consistently harms America's relations with Islamic states that are more important to both America and especially our European allies.

    I suppose the calculus has changed somewhat recently thanks to the new Israeli-KSA axis and Erdogan's own expansionism. But it hasn't changed enough to justify denying arms exports to Turkey, especially defensive systems.

    Actually selling BMD systems to Turkey would be in line with American policy to create an assured nuclear first strike capability against Russian strategic forces. Admittedly this is an exceptionally stupid policy, but it's worth pointing out that selling BMD systems to Turkey would facilitate this policy.


    Probably the biggest bang for the buck, though I think the Patriot PAC3 plus a THAAD provide better capabilities – albeit for something like five times the money. Except for the 400 km range, which is probably not very useful for the Americans. (Due to the shape of the Earth it only works against very high flying targets, and probably the Americans are correct to assume air superiority anyway.)
     
    PAC3 and THAAD are optimized for BMD work and have inferior performance against combat aircraft. The S-400 also claims excellent BMD capabilities, though these claims are even less tested than America's questionable BMD claims.

    No one will really know how well these systems will perform until the shooting starts, and it's unlikely that the contractors selling the systems would permit honest performance tests by foreign customers.

    The long range of the S-400 is principally useful in area denial of supporting assets like tankers and AEWR aircraft. This is definitely useful against Americans, though presumably in a conflict with America our airpower would have access to Greek and British Cypriot basing reducing the reliance on tankers.


    Even if Turkey didn’t provide the most high tech components for the F-35 program, it still has some details and specifications. Its pilots are already receiving training, so presumably they have a lot of interesting things to tell about its vulnerabilities or as simple things as American tactics.
     
    This is true. Particularly useful information to Russians would be the performance of the aircraft's purportedly advanced avionics (especially sensor fusion) and also maintenance/overhaul requirements (which limit sortie generation).

    That said the USAF itself doesn't believe the F-35 can compete against modern Russian fighters and has complained bitterly about this for the past decade.


    There is something to it (I also read about East German air-to-air missiles and MiG-29 fighters which fell into the hands of the Bundeswehr: Soviet missiles worked better against Western fighters, and vice versa, presumably because both sides developed and tested their own defenses and countermeasures against their own weapons), but I don’t think there’s a silver bullet against any weapons system. The Russians had to fight Soviet (often Russian) weapons the hard way in Georgia and Ukraine, and presumably it’d be the same with the Turkish S-400. Similar to the issues Iranian F-14s posed to the US.
     
    The more technologically complex a weapon is the more useful inside information is in fighting it. You have more of an inside edge fighting against your own SAMs than you do against, say, your own artillery.


    But that’d defeat the purpose of the whole policy against Turkey: the policy intended to starve the Russian MIC of orders would end up providing it with a new customer as well as accelerating the Su-57 development. The Turks might even provide a few ideas or technologies from the F-35, though I already wrote that.

    It’d also be great marketing for Russian military technology (or at least the S-400) if Turkey broke with the West merely to be able to buy it. If I were an American policy maker, I’d probably try to avoid such an outcome.
     
    We'll see. I don't endorse this policy for a variety of reasons, but America has had considerable "success" lately with its weaponized sanctions. This probably leads American policymakers to believe they can successfully achieve their aims through bullying. If Turkey does go on to purchase Su-57s then this policy must be considered a failure.

    I generally support a more commercially oriented foreign policy, and while denying competitors access to markets is part of that, the main plank should be promotion of our own export goods. If what you say about Patriot and THAAD sales to Turkey is correct, then we never should've come to this point to begin with.

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @reiner Tor

    PAC3 and THAAD are optimized for BMD work and have inferior performance against combat aircraft.

    I think PAC1 was already fairly good against combat aircraft. Yes, THAAD is mostly for anti-missile defense.

  811. @Thorfinnsson
    @reiner Tor



    Because one of the carriers is in overhaul/repairs/whatever anyway.
     
    That's true, but there used to be a carrier air wing for every carrier. This was considered useful for replacing losses at sea in war, and it also allowed for more differential combat training time at Top Gun.

    The air wings have also gotten a lot smaller.

    In addition to the legally-mandated 11 carriers, the Navy makes an effort to maximize capital ship hull numbers in order to maximize the number of flag rank officers.

    Owing to the numerous costly procurement disasters in this century (LCS, Gerald Ford class, Zumwalt class), the Navy has made cuts elsewhere (air wings, mine warfare, weapons, etc.) in order to preserve its hull numbers.


    Don’t you know by any chance what the Forbes article talks about as the Chinese “targeting complex,” which would be immediately destroyed in a war?
     
    No, since he doesn't give specifics. I assume he means China's space-based assets because China doesn't yet have substantial maritime ISR assets like patrol aircraft, undersea sensors, ELINT vessels, etc.

    So in a war China's space-based assets (which in any case have limited capability) would be destroyed by anti-satellite weapons, and its land and sea based ISR assets would be unable to venture far beyond the coast without being destroyed.

    https://www.globalsecurity.org/space/world/china/space-surveillance.htm

    The Soviet Navy had vast numbers of maritime patrol aircraft and even the capability to launch on demand polar-orbit reconnaissance satellites to track NATO fleets.

    In a conflict with the US China would quickly be unable to find American fleets except with its nuclear submarines, which would be outnumbered by American ones.

    The PLAN is of course aware of these deficiencies and working to correct them.

    I also assume China has cultivated other forms of naval intelligence deriving from its huge oceanic commerce.

    Replies: @reiner Tor

    China has cultivated other forms of naval intelligence deriving from its huge oceanic commerce

    Could they use it in a war? I seriously doubt it. I think in a war zone, all commercial vessels would be told to leave on short notice, and probably they’d be sunk by patrolling American aircraft and naval vessels immediately (and if there’s an international scandal, they’d blame the Chinese for it).

    You can use small fishing or commercial vessels for this purpose in a smaller war, but I doubt in a serious war with China (which is basically a world war already, or almost a world war) they would run that risk.

    But I still don’t get the US Navy’s confidence here. I’d guess the Chinese have prepared spy satellites with their launchers (shouldn’t be bigger than an ICBM, in fact smaller), which could then be used to launch such satellites very quickly and dispatch the information to the ASM sites. Unless the low flying satellites could be destroyed immediately the Chinese can already easily target. And even if they manage to take it down within a few minutes of the launch (by that time the important information could easily be dispatched to the ASM sites), the Chinese can launch another one shortly before the anti-ship missile arrives within a few minutes of the target area and dispatch the updated position of the naval vessels in question.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    @reiner Tor

    The largest value would likely be actionable intelligence for use at the very outset of the war, as obviously the ships would scatter after the outbreak of war and inter themselves in neutral ports. Some might try to return to China depending on what coalition America assembled for war.

    The value of these ships once war broke out would of course be low. Some of the ships might be camouflaged as vessels belonging to neutral merchant marines which would allow for wartime intelligence until boarded by American warships.

    I'm not aware of the PLAN having developed naval tracking polar satellites that can be launched on demand. This capability of the Soviet Navy was known during the Cold War. That said, obviously China has the capability to develop such systems and could have done so in secret. But I doubt it would keep such a system secret unless it actually wants war with America. Another problem with such secret satellites is that they cannot have been tested, as otherwise their existence immediately becomes known to the US and Japan.

    Soviet satellites: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/US-A

    China does have its Huanjing disaster monitoring satellites, but these are intended for a higher orbit than the US-A. Additionally they only have about a dozen of them.

    American confidence is due to the usual wishful thinking and our successful history of naval warfare. The Pacific War is to the US Navy what Trafalgar is to the Royal Navy.

    I agree that this confidence is unwarranted, especially going forward. I am not in favor of war with China, but there's a certain logic to Steve Bannon's desire for war with China in the next five years.

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @reiner Tor

  812. @Thorfinnsson
    @reiner Tor

    I'm reminded of the failure of Britain's postwar industrial strategy for airliners.

    For some strange reason the government refused to compel BOAC to purchase British aircraft. BOAC purchased Lockheed Connies, Boeing Stratocruisers, Douglas DC-4s and DC-7s, and finally of course Boeing 707s.

    This was done despite a chronic shortage of Dollars, the existence of suitable British types (or types with development potential), and the existence of a government industrial strategy to compete in the world airliner market (the Brabazon Committee).

    The acquisition of large, pressurized American airliners immediately after the end of the war was perhaps justifiable as British equivalents did not yet exist (the Avro Tudor was much smaller than the Connie). Continuing to purchase American aircraft in the '50s was absurd. Even the Bristol Brabazon, supposedly a white elephant, probably could've succeeded with a high capacity cabin layout (instead of only carrying 2/3rd more passengers than a Connie in a plane the size of a modern wide body).

    In light of the fact that BOAC was owned by the crown and that Sterling was not freely convertible in this era, it would've been exceedingly simple to force BOAC to purchase British aircraft.

    In the end only the Vickers Viscount became a major success.

    Replies: @LondonBob, @DFH

    Whilst the Viscount, Comet and VC 10 were all innovative ultimately only the Viscount racked up significant sales, with the others being flawed in some way deterring international buyers. BOAC had to compete internationally and couldn’t carry the British commercial airliner industry on its own. There was a good documentary on this recently.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/tvandradio/9507019/Jet-When-Britain-Ruled-the-Skies-BBC-Four-review.html

  813. Reiner Tor, as our resident Hungarian, could you perhaps give a description of Mi Hazánk and what their political position in relation to Jobbik and Fidesz is?

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @Hyperborean

    They are a splinter group of Jobbik. Jobbik has been moving to the left, and those are people who got fed up with it after a point. They theoretically criticize both the leftist opposition and Orbán, but in the National Assembly they have so far mostly supported Orbán.

    I now read a little bit of their program (for the EU elections), and their idea is a "Northern Civilization" (as opposed to Western Civilization), which includes all European countries (and Cyprus) except Turkey, so Russia is included, too. I would have expected them to stupidly include Kazakhstan based on our common nomadic roots or something, but at least on the map they didn't - while in the text they say that they include or countries of Europe and Eurasia with Christian roots (the map interestingly excludes Georgia or Armenia, though), it's even wider in their idea (so, Kazakhstan should be included). They also say in the first paragraph that they are equally proud of the history of the thousand years of Western and Christian culture and the previous "wild" (the exact word they use is often used to describe wild, unbroken horses; so I guess it means nomadic) heritage of our nation, so they cannot really bring themselves to exclude Central Asian nomads.

    Their criticism of the EU is the following:

    - they criticize the New Cold War as a way of breaking up the unity of this perceived Northern Civilization

    - the EU is trying to politically centralize Europe, destroying national sovereignty and leading to a centralized mega-state, so overly unifying politically its turf

    - while at the same time, recreating the economic disunity with an economic core in Western Europe and colonial periphery in countries like Poland and Hungary

    The solution is a European Union which would protect the traditional national communities and traditional values in Europe, and strengthen European families and increasing the birthrates among Europeans, instead of using immigration to avert the demographic catastrophe.

    In Hungary, they want to reopen the treaty to join the EU, and unless the EU gives us concessions, they would want a new plebiscite on whether to stay in the EU. (This is the kind of thing which leads to nowhere. The EU won't give us concessions, and then your bluff will be called anyway.) They also want to strengthen and enlarge the Visegrárd group.

    Their motto is: Hungary belongs to Hungarians, and Europe to Europeans!

    Of course, as all nationalist splinter groups, it attracts the usual number of tinfoil hat people and all kinds of crackpot fantasists. But maybe it could be the beginning of a beautiful friendship, who knows?

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @Hyperborean

  814. @reiner Tor
    @Thorfinnsson


    The fact that Turkey wants the S-400 in itself is interesting.
     
    It’s simple. They kept asking for a Patriot and maybe other stuff like THAAD, but the Americans kept throwing up hurdles.

    One possible reason is Israel: the Americans have a more or less stated official policy of not letting any country in the Middle East be stronger than Israel, so they never sell the Muslims the latest military technologies. With Erdogan’s moderate (?) Islamism and general unreliability, they probably wanted to avoid a situation where Israel would face Turkish Patriot PAC3 and THAAD in Syria.

    Another possible reason is simply the Turkish requirement for sharing technology and indigenous production.

    Or they simply didn’t trust Erdogan or even Turkey in general (especially in light of the Turkish refusal to grant airspace for the invasion of Iraq in 2003), regardless of Israel.

    Now, the Turks probably threatened that they would then buy from the Russians, and finally made good on their threats.

    it’s the premier long range surface to air missile system
     
    Probably the biggest bang for the buck, though I think the Patriot PAC3 plus a THAAD provide better capabilities - albeit for something like five times the money. Except for the 400 km range, which is probably not very useful for the Americans. (Due to the shape of the Earth it only works against very high flying targets, and probably the Americans are correct to assume air superiority anyway.)

    As for sharing American technology with Russia,
     
    Even if Turkey didn’t provide the most high tech components for the F-35 program, it still has some details and specifications. Its pilots are already receiving training, so presumably they have a lot of interesting things to tell about its vulnerabilities or as simple things as American tactics.

    the Russians are better aware of how to defeat it than Western forces are
     
    There is something to it (I also read about East German air-to-air missiles and MiG-29 fighters which fell into the hands of the Bundeswehr: Soviet missiles worked better against Western fighters, and vice versa, presumably because both sides developed and tested their own defenses and countermeasures against their own weapons), but I don’t think there’s a silver bullet against any weapons system. The Russians had to fight Soviet (often Russian) weapons the hard way in Georgia and Ukraine, and presumably it’d be the same with the Turkish S-400. Similar to the issues Iranian F-14s posed to the US.

    From that angle they might as well go ahead and make things official. I’ve heard that Su-57 sales to Turkey are being discussed.
     
    But that’d defeat the purpose of the whole policy against Turkey: the policy intended to starve the Russian MIC of orders would end up providing it with a new customer as well as accelerating the Su-57 development. The Turks might even provide a few ideas or technologies from the F-35, though I already wrote that.

    It’d also be great marketing for Russian military technology (or at least the S-400) if Turkey broke with the West merely to be able to buy it. If I were an American policy maker, I’d probably try to avoid such an outcome.

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson, @LondonBob

    The Israelis detest Erdogan, hence the neocon dislike. Pompeii and Bolton do not inhabit the real world so think they can kick Turkey about without consequences.

    https://indianpunchline.com/us-israel-punish-turkeys-erdogan/

  815. @Hyperborean
    Reiner Tor, as our resident Hungarian, could you perhaps give a description of Mi Hazánk and what their political position in relation to Jobbik and Fidesz is?

    Replies: @reiner Tor

    They are a splinter group of Jobbik. Jobbik has been moving to the left, and those are people who got fed up with it after a point. They theoretically criticize both the leftist opposition and Orbán, but in the National Assembly they have so far mostly supported Orbán.

    I now read a little bit of their program (for the EU elections), and their idea is a “Northern Civilization” (as opposed to Western Civilization), which includes all European countries (and Cyprus) except Turkey, so Russia is included, too. I would have expected them to stupidly include Kazakhstan based on our common nomadic roots or something, but at least on the map they didn’t – while in the text they say that they include or countries of Europe and Eurasia with Christian roots (the map interestingly excludes Georgia or Armenia, though), it’s even wider in their idea (so, Kazakhstan should be included). They also say in the first paragraph that they are equally proud of the history of the thousand years of Western and Christian culture and the previous “wild” (the exact word they use is often used to describe wild, unbroken horses; so I guess it means nomadic) heritage of our nation, so they cannot really bring themselves to exclude Central Asian nomads.

    Their criticism of the EU is the following:

    – they criticize the New Cold War as a way of breaking up the unity of this perceived Northern Civilization

    – the EU is trying to politically centralize Europe, destroying national sovereignty and leading to a centralized mega-state, so overly unifying politically its turf

    – while at the same time, recreating the economic disunity with an economic core in Western Europe and colonial periphery in countries like Poland and Hungary

    The solution is a European Union which would protect the traditional national communities and traditional values in Europe, and strengthen European families and increasing the birthrates among Europeans, instead of using immigration to avert the demographic catastrophe.

    In Hungary, they want to reopen the treaty to join the EU, and unless the EU gives us concessions, they would want a new plebiscite on whether to stay in the EU. (This is the kind of thing which leads to nowhere. The EU won’t give us concessions, and then your bluff will be called anyway.) They also want to strengthen and enlarge the Visegrárd group.

    Their motto is: Hungary belongs to Hungarians, and Europe to Europeans!

    Of course, as all nationalist splinter groups, it attracts the usual number of tinfoil hat people and all kinds of crackpot fantasists. But maybe it could be the beginning of a beautiful friendship, who knows?

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @reiner Tor

    You can see the map of their "Northern Civilization" if you open the second or third page of the program (click on the green book at the top).

    , @Hyperborean
    @reiner Tor

    Thank you, you are as always informative.

  816. @reiner Tor
    @Hyperborean

    They are a splinter group of Jobbik. Jobbik has been moving to the left, and those are people who got fed up with it after a point. They theoretically criticize both the leftist opposition and Orbán, but in the National Assembly they have so far mostly supported Orbán.

    I now read a little bit of their program (for the EU elections), and their idea is a "Northern Civilization" (as opposed to Western Civilization), which includes all European countries (and Cyprus) except Turkey, so Russia is included, too. I would have expected them to stupidly include Kazakhstan based on our common nomadic roots or something, but at least on the map they didn't - while in the text they say that they include or countries of Europe and Eurasia with Christian roots (the map interestingly excludes Georgia or Armenia, though), it's even wider in their idea (so, Kazakhstan should be included). They also say in the first paragraph that they are equally proud of the history of the thousand years of Western and Christian culture and the previous "wild" (the exact word they use is often used to describe wild, unbroken horses; so I guess it means nomadic) heritage of our nation, so they cannot really bring themselves to exclude Central Asian nomads.

    Their criticism of the EU is the following:

    - they criticize the New Cold War as a way of breaking up the unity of this perceived Northern Civilization

    - the EU is trying to politically centralize Europe, destroying national sovereignty and leading to a centralized mega-state, so overly unifying politically its turf

    - while at the same time, recreating the economic disunity with an economic core in Western Europe and colonial periphery in countries like Poland and Hungary

    The solution is a European Union which would protect the traditional national communities and traditional values in Europe, and strengthen European families and increasing the birthrates among Europeans, instead of using immigration to avert the demographic catastrophe.

    In Hungary, they want to reopen the treaty to join the EU, and unless the EU gives us concessions, they would want a new plebiscite on whether to stay in the EU. (This is the kind of thing which leads to nowhere. The EU won't give us concessions, and then your bluff will be called anyway.) They also want to strengthen and enlarge the Visegrárd group.

    Their motto is: Hungary belongs to Hungarians, and Europe to Europeans!

    Of course, as all nationalist splinter groups, it attracts the usual number of tinfoil hat people and all kinds of crackpot fantasists. But maybe it could be the beginning of a beautiful friendship, who knows?

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @Hyperborean

    You can see the map of their “Northern Civilization” if you open the second or third page of the program (click on the green book at the top).

  817. @Mitleser
    @reiner Tor

    I would call that lack of government support if the MC-21 serial production was already reality
    But it is not.


    The MC-21, Russia’s advanced narrow-body airliner programme being developed by the United Aircraft Corporation (UAC), which is now part of Rostec, remains under the close supervision of the country’s government, which is also continuing to contribute sponsorship funds directly from the federal budget.

    The latest allocation of state funds authorised by government decree and which came into effect today (February 6), is in line with the government’s aim to support Russia’s emerging aerospace industry in the period between 2013 and 2025. It provides for a total of 10.5 billion roubles (US$160 million) of state subsidies within the next three years for the MC-21.

    This year’s injection of 1.6 billion roubles, plus a further 4.11 billion in 2020 and 4.81 billion in 2021, will cover up to 90 per cent of the manufacturer’s production, sales and after-sales support costs, as well as 90 per cent of interest payments on loans associated with the programme. Also eligible are the costs of flight simulators, ground-handling equipment and spare parts inventories.
     
    http://www.rusaviainsider.com/russian-government-allocates-additional-10-5-billion-roubles-mc-21-project/

    Replies: @reiner Tor

    They have to wait years for the 737 MAX deliveries anyway. If there was any delay, they could just temporarily lease a few planes in the meantime until serial production of the MC-21 starts.

    • Replies: @Mitleser
    @reiner Tor

    737 MAX deliveries will begin in Autumn 2019.

    Replies: @reiner Tor

  818. @Thorfinnsson
    @reiner Tor

    I'm reminded of the failure of Britain's postwar industrial strategy for airliners.

    For some strange reason the government refused to compel BOAC to purchase British aircraft. BOAC purchased Lockheed Connies, Boeing Stratocruisers, Douglas DC-4s and DC-7s, and finally of course Boeing 707s.

    This was done despite a chronic shortage of Dollars, the existence of suitable British types (or types with development potential), and the existence of a government industrial strategy to compete in the world airliner market (the Brabazon Committee).

    The acquisition of large, pressurized American airliners immediately after the end of the war was perhaps justifiable as British equivalents did not yet exist (the Avro Tudor was much smaller than the Connie). Continuing to purchase American aircraft in the '50s was absurd. Even the Bristol Brabazon, supposedly a white elephant, probably could've succeeded with a high capacity cabin layout (instead of only carrying 2/3rd more passengers than a Connie in a plane the size of a modern wide body).

    In light of the fact that BOAC was owned by the crown and that Sterling was not freely convertible in this era, it would've been exceedingly simple to force BOAC to purchase British aircraft.

    In the end only the Vickers Viscount became a major success.

    Replies: @LondonBob, @DFH

    Have you ever read Corelli Barnett’s books? He is very good on the subject of the failures of British industrial strategy after the war (amongst other things)

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    @DFH

    No, but I am aware of him and he is on my list.

  819. @reiner Tor
    @Thorfinnsson


    China has cultivated other forms of naval intelligence deriving from its huge oceanic commerce
     
    Could they use it in a war? I seriously doubt it. I think in a war zone, all commercial vessels would be told to leave on short notice, and probably they'd be sunk by patrolling American aircraft and naval vessels immediately (and if there's an international scandal, they'd blame the Chinese for it).

    You can use small fishing or commercial vessels for this purpose in a smaller war, but I doubt in a serious war with China (which is basically a world war already, or almost a world war) they would run that risk.

    But I still don't get the US Navy's confidence here. I'd guess the Chinese have prepared spy satellites with their launchers (shouldn't be bigger than an ICBM, in fact smaller), which could then be used to launch such satellites very quickly and dispatch the information to the ASM sites. Unless the low flying satellites could be destroyed immediately the Chinese can already easily target. And even if they manage to take it down within a few minutes of the launch (by that time the important information could easily be dispatched to the ASM sites), the Chinese can launch another one shortly before the anti-ship missile arrives within a few minutes of the target area and dispatch the updated position of the naval vessels in question.

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson

    The largest value would likely be actionable intelligence for use at the very outset of the war, as obviously the ships would scatter after the outbreak of war and inter themselves in neutral ports. Some might try to return to China depending on what coalition America assembled for war.

    The value of these ships once war broke out would of course be low. Some of the ships might be camouflaged as vessels belonging to neutral merchant marines which would allow for wartime intelligence until boarded by American warships.

    I’m not aware of the PLAN having developed naval tracking polar satellites that can be launched on demand. This capability of the Soviet Navy was known during the Cold War. That said, obviously China has the capability to develop such systems and could have done so in secret. But I doubt it would keep such a system secret unless it actually wants war with America. Another problem with such secret satellites is that they cannot have been tested, as otherwise their existence immediately becomes known to the US and Japan.

    Soviet satellites: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/US-A

    China does have its Huanjing disaster monitoring satellites, but these are intended for a higher orbit than the US-A. Additionally they only have about a dozen of them.

    American confidence is due to the usual wishful thinking and our successful history of naval warfare. The Pacific War is to the US Navy what Trafalgar is to the Royal Navy.

    I agree that this confidence is unwarranted, especially going forward. I am not in favor of war with China, but there’s a certain logic to Steve Bannon’s desire for war with China in the next five years.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @Thorfinnsson

    I just thought about the Chinese anti-ship ballistic missile.

    Basically, if they have a rough idea where the target is, they launch it up, and once it starts dropping, theoretically it can use its own sensors to choose the exact path, acting as its own naval tracking satellite.

    The difficulty is that it's dropping at a speed of 10 Mach, which might not be enough to overcome AEGIS BMD defenses. But perhaps many of these could overwhelm those defenses. (Ideally they'd be able to communicate with each other, or to broadcast their info to the ground.)


    naval tracking polar satellites that can be launched on demand
     
    I'm not even sure these need to be satellites. It depends on how precisely you know or need to know the position of the enemy vessels. (Or troops. It should work over a continent, too.) So you'd shoot a very small drone above the area, and it'd look down to check if there's anything, and broadcast to the launch station (or another station) what it sees. It could be very high (satellite), or lower, maybe only 50 km or or 30 km or less above ground. (If you know roughly where the enemy vessel is, you just need a precise info.)

    But yeah, we'd probably know something about them.
    , @reiner Tor
    @Thorfinnsson


    satellites that can be launched on demand
     
    What is the difference between a normal satellite and one which could be launched on demand? I guess the launcher, which needs to be preferably solid fuel for a rapid operation. So, do they have a modified ICBM which could be used to launch a satellite to low orbit? Do they need to separately test such ability?

    Anyway, they have a low cost solid fuel satellite launch capability, I'm not sure if such rockets could be carried around and launched from transporter erectors, but since they were developed from military missiles, and are explicitly called "quick reaction" launchers, I guess that's the case.

    https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/science/china-launches-satellite-on-low-cost-solid-fuel-rocket/articleshow/66007959.cms

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuaizhou

    EDIT:

    Yes, that's definitely the case.

    "the launch can be conducted on rough terrain"

    "Satellites can be installed on a Kuaizhou rocket and stored in a maintenance facility. Once needed, the rocket is deployed by a transporter-erector-launcher vehicle (TEL) to a secure location. Launch readiness time can be as short as several hours.[13][14]"

    So there's no way to tell how many naval satellites they have in storage, nor how many launchers they have. Though the numbers currently are probably small.

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @Thorfinnsson

  820. @DFH
    @Thorfinnsson

    Have you ever read Corelli Barnett's books? He is very good on the subject of the failures of British industrial strategy after the war (amongst other things)

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson

    No, but I am aware of him and he is on my list.

  821. @Dmitry
    @songbird

    I saw this old Hollywood film last month, Mr Hack recommended: "Cat on a hot tin roof".

    The grammar of how they speak sometimes was different to modern English.

    I thought it is more informal, missing some words, sometimes not saying the subject of the sentence, and more difficult to understand for parts. There is a section here:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jy59f_rp3D0


    Very few had blacks in them. What would be mundane today was considered exotic back then
     
    In "Cat on a hot tin roof", blacks are there only as servants.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @Anonymous, @songbird

    This movie I would consider early modern, based on the subject matter: unhappy marriage, and homosexuality. I’m actually a bit surprised it came out as early as 1958. It is interesting how they started pushing some of these things out in the late ’50s, despite the Hays Code. One infamous example, is “Ben Hur” (1959) in which Gore Vidal inserted a homosexual subtext.

    I’m generally not too big on theatrical adaptations. I feel they are overacted. And generally, I think that the political compass of theater is even worse than Hollywood. I recall seeing “The Merchant of Venice” in a theater when I was a kid – two men French kissed. The Macy’s Thanksgiving Day Parade, is really exceptionally gay – of course a lot of that is based of musicals, which is probably even worse than theater.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @songbird

    I thought the opposite. The film seems relatively old for 1958 (this is the same year a very modernist film of Alfred Hitchcock, was released - Vertigo).

    The story could also be written in the late 19th century, and it would not be different (except one scene where their father arrives in a plane).

    These themes of unhappy family, which is arguing for inheritance from the dying oligarch, and of an ambiguously impotent or possibly homosexual husband preventing them from having children to inherit the fortune of the father - seem more from the 19th century.

    Also it seems like the play is influenced by Henry James' view of Americans? They have a histrionic family argument. Eventually they go to the cellar under the house, which is full of objects they have bought in Europe, without understanding them.

    -

    I thought the most modern aspect of the film was choice of actors who look like fashion models for the main roles, and then filming them like they are just posing for a 1950s fashion catalogue?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZSEz455620

  822. @Thorfinnsson
    @reiner Tor

    The largest value would likely be actionable intelligence for use at the very outset of the war, as obviously the ships would scatter after the outbreak of war and inter themselves in neutral ports. Some might try to return to China depending on what coalition America assembled for war.

    The value of these ships once war broke out would of course be low. Some of the ships might be camouflaged as vessels belonging to neutral merchant marines which would allow for wartime intelligence until boarded by American warships.

    I'm not aware of the PLAN having developed naval tracking polar satellites that can be launched on demand. This capability of the Soviet Navy was known during the Cold War. That said, obviously China has the capability to develop such systems and could have done so in secret. But I doubt it would keep such a system secret unless it actually wants war with America. Another problem with such secret satellites is that they cannot have been tested, as otherwise their existence immediately becomes known to the US and Japan.

    Soviet satellites: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/US-A

    China does have its Huanjing disaster monitoring satellites, but these are intended for a higher orbit than the US-A. Additionally they only have about a dozen of them.

    American confidence is due to the usual wishful thinking and our successful history of naval warfare. The Pacific War is to the US Navy what Trafalgar is to the Royal Navy.

    I agree that this confidence is unwarranted, especially going forward. I am not in favor of war with China, but there's a certain logic to Steve Bannon's desire for war with China in the next five years.

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @reiner Tor

    I just thought about the Chinese anti-ship ballistic missile.

    Basically, if they have a rough idea where the target is, they launch it up, and once it starts dropping, theoretically it can use its own sensors to choose the exact path, acting as its own naval tracking satellite.

    The difficulty is that it’s dropping at a speed of 10 Mach, which might not be enough to overcome AEGIS BMD defenses. But perhaps many of these could overwhelm those defenses. (Ideally they’d be able to communicate with each other, or to broadcast their info to the ground.)

    naval tracking polar satellites that can be launched on demand

    I’m not even sure these need to be satellites. It depends on how precisely you know or need to know the position of the enemy vessels. (Or troops. It should work over a continent, too.) So you’d shoot a very small drone above the area, and it’d look down to check if there’s anything, and broadcast to the launch station (or another station) what it sees. It could be very high (satellite), or lower, maybe only 50 km or or 30 km or less above ground. (If you know roughly where the enemy vessel is, you just need a precise info.)

    But yeah, we’d probably know something about them.

  823. I just thought about the Chinese anti-ship ballistic missile.

    Basically, if they have a rough idea where the target is, they launch it up, and once it starts dropping, theoretically it can use its own sensors to choose the exact path, acting as its own naval tracking satellite.

    The difficulty is that it’s dropping at a speed of 10 Mach, which might not be enough to overcome AEGIS BMD defenses. But perhaps many of these could overwhelm those defenses. (Ideally they’d be able to communicate with each other, or to broadcast their info to the ground.)

    A rough idea of where the target is, well, rough. And in just one hour’s time a carrier group could be anywhere within a 3,000 nautical mile area.

    Furthermore for obvious reasons ballistic missile warheads don’t have room for large sensors.

    Honestly China’s best break here might be indiscipline on the part of American naval forces. Perhaps a female-captained destroyer would break radio silence to complain about a shortage of pizza MREs.

    I’m not even sure these need to be satellites. It depends on how precisely you know or need to know the position of the enemy vessels. (Or troops. It should work over a continent, too.) So you’d shoot a very small drone above the area, and it’d look down to check if there’s anything, and broadcast to the launch station (or another station) what it sees. It could be very high (satellite), or lower, maybe only 50 km or or 30 km or less above ground. (If you know roughly where the enemy vessel is, you just need a precise info.)

    But yeah, we’d probably know something about them.

    A “very small drone” would not have useful endurance.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @Thorfinnsson


    A rough idea of where the target is, well, rough. And in just one hour’s time a carrier group could be anywhere within a 3,000 nautical mile area.
     
    The missile could cover the 2,000 km range in roughly fifteen or twenty minutes. So if you exactly knew exactly where the target is at the time you launched your missile, it might be at most 20 km (but probably less) away from that point. Of course, the less exact location you have, the farther away it will be. But the rougher the original idea, the larger the area to be searched through.

    I'm not an expert on radars, the DF-21D has a diameter of 1.4 m (4.6 ft), probably it's not large enough for a good radar searching such a large area. And you're probably correct, increasing the diameter would result in a host of engineering problems, lower speed, higher requirement for an energy shield, etc. Anyway, for what it's worth, at Mach 10, half the energy of the impact comes from kinetic energy, so even replacing all the explosives with sophisticated radar and other electronics would only cut the destructive power in half, so as long as you can increase your chances of hitting the target by 100% or more, it's worth it.

    A “very small drone” would not have useful endurance.
     
    I thought about one without propulsion, only sailing or parachuting (or using a balloon to keep itself high until shot down), giving a useful snapshot of the battlefield. Any minute it'd spend after sending the initial snapshot (which could be gathered in a very short time, maybe a few minutes or less? a visual snapshot would obviously need just a few seconds, and in good weather, you could just launch flying cameras above the target area) would just be a bonus.

    But maybe it's still just a fantasy, impossible to implement. Or maybe not too useful.
  824. @reiner Tor
    @Mitleser

    They have to wait years for the 737 MAX deliveries anyway. If there was any delay, they could just temporarily lease a few planes in the meantime until serial production of the MC-21 starts.

    Replies: @Mitleser

    737 MAX deliveries will begin in Autumn 2019.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @Mitleser

    It's needs a short term solution. Buying Western planes exposes Aeroflot to a possible future Western sanctions regime, like how Iran cannot maintain its fleet of airliners because of the US sanctions.

    So either they should reduce the number of flights, or they should find a short-term solution like a short-term (three years) leasing agreement.

    Buying Western airliners makes little sense, given the current geopolitical situation.

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @Mitleser

  825. @songbird
    @Dmitry

    This movie I would consider early modern, based on the subject matter: unhappy marriage, and homosexuality. I'm actually a bit surprised it came out as early as 1958. It is interesting how they started pushing some of these things out in the late '50s, despite the Hays Code. One infamous example, is "Ben Hur" (1959) in which Gore Vidal inserted a homosexual subtext.

    I'm generally not too big on theatrical adaptations. I feel they are overacted. And generally, I think that the political compass of theater is even worse than Hollywood. I recall seeing "The Merchant of Venice" in a theater when I was a kid - two men French kissed. The Macy's Thanksgiving Day Parade, is really exceptionally gay - of course a lot of that is based of musicals, which is probably even worse than theater.

    Replies: @Dmitry

    I thought the opposite. The film seems relatively old for 1958 (this is the same year a very modernist film of Alfred Hitchcock, was released – Vertigo).

    The story could also be written in the late 19th century, and it would not be different (except one scene where their father arrives in a plane).

    These themes of unhappy family, which is arguing for inheritance from the dying oligarch, and of an ambiguously impotent or possibly homosexual husband preventing them from having children to inherit the fortune of the father – seem more from the 19th century.

    Also it seems like the play is influenced by Henry James’ view of Americans? They have a histrionic family argument. Eventually they go to the cellar under the house, which is full of objects they have bought in Europe, without understanding them.

    I thought the most modern aspect of the film was choice of actors who look like fashion models for the main roles, and then filming them like they are just posing for a 1950s fashion catalogue?

  826. @Anonymous
    @Dmitry

    Tennessee Williams is not somebody I'd be recommending for an intermediate English learner; his stuff is too heavy in colloquialisms and metaphors and figures of speech. And he's even harder to parse in film than in written form. Most modern Americans wouldn't really understand what his characters are saying.

    Replies: @Dmitry

    I think I could understand all of the language .

    It’s an interesting culture shock to see Hollywood would just film a play in 1958, without even varying the house scenery for two hours.

    Nowadays, since Avatar, even the camera has to constantly move and change place every 5 seconds, like an audience is expected to have so much attention deficit they need constant movement not to leave the cinema in boredom.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    @Dmitry

    Such art films still exist - another excellent example of a film with almost all of the action taking place in a single set is Reservoir Dogs. I suspect its another example of "corruption" of art, if you would, by successful hyperfocus on a specific kind of spending audience. The Pareto Principle successfully applied maximizes profits, but not necessarily artistic marvels.

    , @Hyperborean
    @Dmitry


    It’s an interesting culture shock to see Hollywood would just film a play in 1958, without even varying the house scenery for two hours.

    Nowadays, since Avatar, even the camera has to constantly move and change place every 5 seconds, like an audience is expected to have so much attention deficit they need constant movement not to leave the cinema in boredom.
     
    Oblomov was the 1981 Best Foreign Film award winner of the American National Board of Review.
  827. • Replies: @Hyperborean
    @Thorfinnsson


    China falls to the forces of Homintern
     
    Access is denied, can you summarise the article?
  828. @Dmitry
    @Anonymous

    I think I could understand all of the language .

    It's an interesting culture shock to see Hollywood would just film a play in 1958, without even varying the house scenery for two hours.

    Nowadays, since Avatar, even the camera has to constantly move and change place every 5 seconds, like an audience is expected to have so much attention deficit they need constant movement not to leave the cinema in boredom.

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh, @Hyperborean

    Such art films still exist – another excellent example of a film with almost all of the action taking place in a single set is Reservoir Dogs. I suspect its another example of “corruption” of art, if you would, by successful hyperfocus on a specific kind of spending audience. The Pareto Principle successfully applied maximizes profits, but not necessarily artistic marvels.

  829. @Thorfinnsson

    I just thought about the Chinese anti-ship ballistic missile.

    Basically, if they have a rough idea where the target is, they launch it up, and once it starts dropping, theoretically it can use its own sensors to choose the exact path, acting as its own naval tracking satellite.

    The difficulty is that it’s dropping at a speed of 10 Mach, which might not be enough to overcome AEGIS BMD defenses. But perhaps many of these could overwhelm those defenses. (Ideally they’d be able to communicate with each other, or to broadcast their info to the ground.)
     

    A rough idea of where the target is, well, rough. And in just one hour's time a carrier group could be anywhere within a 3,000 nautical mile area.

    Furthermore for obvious reasons ballistic missile warheads don't have room for large sensors.

    Honestly China's best break here might be indiscipline on the part of American naval forces. Perhaps a female-captained destroyer would break radio silence to complain about a shortage of pizza MREs.

    I’m not even sure these need to be satellites. It depends on how precisely you know or need to know the position of the enemy vessels. (Or troops. It should work over a continent, too.) So you’d shoot a very small drone above the area, and it’d look down to check if there’s anything, and broadcast to the launch station (or another station) what it sees. It could be very high (satellite), or lower, maybe only 50 km or or 30 km or less above ground. (If you know roughly where the enemy vessel is, you just need a precise info.)

    But yeah, we’d probably know something about them.
     

    A "very small drone" would not have useful endurance.

    Replies: @reiner Tor

    A rough idea of where the target is, well, rough. And in just one hour’s time a carrier group could be anywhere within a 3,000 nautical mile area.

    The missile could cover the 2,000 km range in roughly fifteen or twenty minutes. So if you exactly knew exactly where the target is at the time you launched your missile, it might be at most 20 km (but probably less) away from that point. Of course, the less exact location you have, the farther away it will be. But the rougher the original idea, the larger the area to be searched through.

    I’m not an expert on radars, the DF-21D has a diameter of 1.4 m (4.6 ft), probably it’s not large enough for a good radar searching such a large area. And you’re probably correct, increasing the diameter would result in a host of engineering problems, lower speed, higher requirement for an energy shield, etc. Anyway, for what it’s worth, at Mach 10, half the energy of the impact comes from kinetic energy, so even replacing all the explosives with sophisticated radar and other electronics would only cut the destructive power in half, so as long as you can increase your chances of hitting the target by 100% or more, it’s worth it.

    A “very small drone” would not have useful endurance.

    I thought about one without propulsion, only sailing or parachuting (or using a balloon to keep itself high until shot down), giving a useful snapshot of the battlefield. Any minute it’d spend after sending the initial snapshot (which could be gathered in a very short time, maybe a few minutes or less? a visual snapshot would obviously need just a few seconds, and in good weather, you could just launch flying cameras above the target area) would just be a bonus.

    But maybe it’s still just a fantasy, impossible to implement. Or maybe not too useful.

  830. @Mitleser
    @reiner Tor

    737 MAX deliveries will begin in Autumn 2019.

    Replies: @reiner Tor

    It’s needs a short term solution. Buying Western planes exposes Aeroflot to a possible future Western sanctions regime, like how Iran cannot maintain its fleet of airliners because of the US sanctions.

    So either they should reduce the number of flights, or they should find a short-term solution like a short-term (three years) leasing agreement.

    Buying Western airliners makes little sense, given the current geopolitical situation.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @reiner Tor

    And buying American planes makes even less sense than buying Airbus. The Americans usually have tougher sanctions, introduced at shorter notice, while the Europeans often include grandfathering provisions and they usually take longer to implement. Their sanctions are usually less stringent, or at most exactly as tough as the American sanctions. In 2014 the American sanctions might not have been tougher than the EU sanctions, because it was under Obama, and probably EU and US officials coordinated a lot about it. But then the Americans could and did quickly and unilaterally snap further sanctions, which the Europeans basically never do, so on average, you always end up with tougher American than European sanctions, especially when averaged out for longer time periods.

    Therefore, buying complicated maintenance-heavy equipment like airliners from the US makes less sense than buying from the EU.

    Replies: @LondonBob, @Thorfinnsson

    , @Mitleser
    @reiner Tor

    You mean a mid/long term solution.

    The Iranians can maintain their aging fleets in the short-term, the real problem is what happens in the long-term to their already decades old air fleets.

    That is currently much less of an issue for the Russian air fleets whose Western planes are much less old.

    Replies: @reiner Tor

  831. @reiner Tor
    @Hyperborean

    They are a splinter group of Jobbik. Jobbik has been moving to the left, and those are people who got fed up with it after a point. They theoretically criticize both the leftist opposition and Orbán, but in the National Assembly they have so far mostly supported Orbán.

    I now read a little bit of their program (for the EU elections), and their idea is a "Northern Civilization" (as opposed to Western Civilization), which includes all European countries (and Cyprus) except Turkey, so Russia is included, too. I would have expected them to stupidly include Kazakhstan based on our common nomadic roots or something, but at least on the map they didn't - while in the text they say that they include or countries of Europe and Eurasia with Christian roots (the map interestingly excludes Georgia or Armenia, though), it's even wider in their idea (so, Kazakhstan should be included). They also say in the first paragraph that they are equally proud of the history of the thousand years of Western and Christian culture and the previous "wild" (the exact word they use is often used to describe wild, unbroken horses; so I guess it means nomadic) heritage of our nation, so they cannot really bring themselves to exclude Central Asian nomads.

    Their criticism of the EU is the following:

    - they criticize the New Cold War as a way of breaking up the unity of this perceived Northern Civilization

    - the EU is trying to politically centralize Europe, destroying national sovereignty and leading to a centralized mega-state, so overly unifying politically its turf

    - while at the same time, recreating the economic disunity with an economic core in Western Europe and colonial periphery in countries like Poland and Hungary

    The solution is a European Union which would protect the traditional national communities and traditional values in Europe, and strengthen European families and increasing the birthrates among Europeans, instead of using immigration to avert the demographic catastrophe.

    In Hungary, they want to reopen the treaty to join the EU, and unless the EU gives us concessions, they would want a new plebiscite on whether to stay in the EU. (This is the kind of thing which leads to nowhere. The EU won't give us concessions, and then your bluff will be called anyway.) They also want to strengthen and enlarge the Visegrárd group.

    Their motto is: Hungary belongs to Hungarians, and Europe to Europeans!

    Of course, as all nationalist splinter groups, it attracts the usual number of tinfoil hat people and all kinds of crackpot fantasists. But maybe it could be the beginning of a beautiful friendship, who knows?

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @Hyperborean

    Thank you, you are as always informative.

  832. @Thorfinnsson
    https://www.thebeijinger.com/blog/2019/04/01/chinas-acceptance-un-lgbt--cautious-optimism

    China falls to the forces of Homintern

    Replies: @Hyperborean

    China falls to the forces of Homintern

    Access is denied, can you summarise the article?

  833. @Dmitry
    @Anonymous

    I think I could understand all of the language .

    It's an interesting culture shock to see Hollywood would just film a play in 1958, without even varying the house scenery for two hours.

    Nowadays, since Avatar, even the camera has to constantly move and change place every 5 seconds, like an audience is expected to have so much attention deficit they need constant movement not to leave the cinema in boredom.

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh, @Hyperborean

    It’s an interesting culture shock to see Hollywood would just film a play in 1958, without even varying the house scenery for two hours.

    Nowadays, since Avatar, even the camera has to constantly move and change place every 5 seconds, like an audience is expected to have so much attention deficit they need constant movement not to leave the cinema in boredom.

    Oblomov was the 1981 Best Foreign Film award winner of the American National Board of Review.

  834. @German_reader
    Cover of tomorrow's SPIEGEL:

    https://twitter.com/DerSPIEGEL/status/1114196258351198214


    AfD
    Putin's puppets
    How the Kremlin is using the right-wing party for its own purposes

    Replies: @songbird, @Mitleser

    Russiagate: German edition

    Just as fake as the original.

    Mainly it concerns the AfD Bundestag delegate Markus Frohnmaier. According to SPIEGEL history, someone from the Duma, i.e. the Russian parliament (there are no more specific information), sent a paper about him to the Russian presidential administration in 2017 before the federal elections, saying about him, Frohnmaier: “He will be a member of the Bundestag under absolute control. And: “So far there has been no evidence that such considerations actually exist high up in the Russian state apparatus”.

    They are still missing, at least in the cover story of SPIEGEL. There is neither evidence that the letter from the Duma was included in any considerations, nor for a concrete support of Frohnmaier from the Kremlin. Frohnmaier actually said about the Russian annexed Crimea: “The Crimea won’t come back any more, and I think you just have to accept that now, too”.

    This view can be considered right or wrong, at least it is more or less the same as the FDP politician and deputy Bundestag president Wolfgang Kubicki said some time ago about the Crimea

    .
    Translated with http://www.DeepL.com/Translator
    https://www.publicomag.com/2019/04/wochenrueckblick-ein-sozialismus-mit-dem-antlitz-von-robert-habeck/

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @Mitleser

    I know a liberal guy in Hungary, he's an attorney, high income, erudite guy, in his early thirties, who runs a liberal Facebook page (now with a couple thousand readers, which includes a few lurking right wingers like yours truly), and it regularly ran all Russiagate hoaxes whenever they emerged, with zero retraction if and when they proved to be baseless. I don't think it's because he's dishonest, but mostly because he believes all the accusations, and then doesn't read or believe the retractions or thinks the retractions are just mere technicalities ("the evidence was slightly weaker than believed originally"). I'm sure this propaganda is very effective for all liberals or leftists (keeping them in the fold), though might be ineffective with nationalists already skeptical of the narrative.

  835. @Mitleser
    @German_reader

    Russiagate: German edition

    Just as fake as the original.


    Mainly it concerns the AfD Bundestag delegate Markus Frohnmaier. According to SPIEGEL history, someone from the Duma, i.e. the Russian parliament (there are no more specific information), sent a paper about him to the Russian presidential administration in 2017 before the federal elections, saying about him, Frohnmaier: "He will be a member of the Bundestag under absolute control. And: "So far there has been no evidence that such considerations actually exist high up in the Russian state apparatus".

    They are still missing, at least in the cover story of SPIEGEL. There is neither evidence that the letter from the Duma was included in any considerations, nor for a concrete support of Frohnmaier from the Kremlin. Frohnmaier actually said about the Russian annexed Crimea: "The Crimea won't come back any more, and I think you just have to accept that now, too".

    This view can be considered right or wrong, at least it is more or less the same as the FDP politician and deputy Bundestag president Wolfgang Kubicki said some time ago about the Crimea
     
    .
    Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator
    https://www.publicomag.com/2019/04/wochenrueckblick-ein-sozialismus-mit-dem-antlitz-von-robert-habeck/

    Replies: @reiner Tor

    I know a liberal guy in Hungary, he’s an attorney, high income, erudite guy, in his early thirties, who runs a liberal Facebook page (now with a couple thousand readers, which includes a few lurking right wingers like yours truly), and it regularly ran all Russiagate hoaxes whenever they emerged, with zero retraction if and when they proved to be baseless. I don’t think it’s because he’s dishonest, but mostly because he believes all the accusations, and then doesn’t read or believe the retractions or thinks the retractions are just mere technicalities (“the evidence was slightly weaker than believed originally”). I’m sure this propaganda is very effective for all liberals or leftists (keeping them in the fold), though might be ineffective with nationalists already skeptical of the narrative.

  836. @Thorfinnsson
    @reiner Tor

    The largest value would likely be actionable intelligence for use at the very outset of the war, as obviously the ships would scatter after the outbreak of war and inter themselves in neutral ports. Some might try to return to China depending on what coalition America assembled for war.

    The value of these ships once war broke out would of course be low. Some of the ships might be camouflaged as vessels belonging to neutral merchant marines which would allow for wartime intelligence until boarded by American warships.

    I'm not aware of the PLAN having developed naval tracking polar satellites that can be launched on demand. This capability of the Soviet Navy was known during the Cold War. That said, obviously China has the capability to develop such systems and could have done so in secret. But I doubt it would keep such a system secret unless it actually wants war with America. Another problem with such secret satellites is that they cannot have been tested, as otherwise their existence immediately becomes known to the US and Japan.

    Soviet satellites: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/US-A

    China does have its Huanjing disaster monitoring satellites, but these are intended for a higher orbit than the US-A. Additionally they only have about a dozen of them.

    American confidence is due to the usual wishful thinking and our successful history of naval warfare. The Pacific War is to the US Navy what Trafalgar is to the Royal Navy.

    I agree that this confidence is unwarranted, especially going forward. I am not in favor of war with China, but there's a certain logic to Steve Bannon's desire for war with China in the next five years.

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @reiner Tor

    satellites that can be launched on demand

    What is the difference between a normal satellite and one which could be launched on demand? I guess the launcher, which needs to be preferably solid fuel for a rapid operation. So, do they have a modified ICBM which could be used to launch a satellite to low orbit? Do they need to separately test such ability?

    Anyway, they have a low cost solid fuel satellite launch capability, I’m not sure if such rockets could be carried around and launched from transporter erectors, but since they were developed from military missiles, and are explicitly called “quick reaction” launchers, I guess that’s the case.

    https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/science/china-launches-satellite-on-low-cost-solid-fuel-rocket/articleshow/66007959.cms

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuaizhou

    EDIT:

    Yes, that’s definitely the case.

    “the launch can be conducted on rough terrain”

    “Satellites can be installed on a Kuaizhou rocket and stored in a maintenance facility. Once needed, the rocket is deployed by a transporter-erector-launcher vehicle (TEL) to a secure location. Launch readiness time can be as short as several hours.[13][14]”

    So there’s no way to tell how many naval satellites they have in storage, nor how many launchers they have. Though the numbers currently are probably small.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @reiner Tor

    China doesn't yet have all satellites needed in orbit.

    Though it'd still make sense for them to keep some satellites in storage, because the ones in space might be destroyed in the first hours of war, so having a few in storage would make a lot of sense. But maybe they don't have any in storage.

    https://www.businessinsider.com/china-wants-satellites-watching-every-ship-in-south-china-sea-2018-8?r=US&IR=T

    , @Thorfinnsson
    @reiner Tor

    The US-A satellites had nuclear reactors so they could operate at very low orbit. The ordinary method of powering satellites, solar panels, would cause satellites in such an orbit to fall to Earth too quickly to be useful.

    And yes, solid fuel is desired for a rapid launch capability. This is why ballistic missiles are ordinarily solid fuel. It's also why Japan's "space program" launches solid fuel rockets.

    The issue here isn't that China lacks solid fuel rockets, it's that they lack nuclear powered satellites intended for extremely low orbit operation.

    There are possibly other things they could launch than radar however. Optical and infrared imaging for instance has improved tremendously in the past generation, and unlike radar doesn't require a lot of power. So perhaps China has developed battery-powered (or RTG) imaging satellites for this purpose.

    Such satellites could be quite small and launched with glorified sounding rockets.

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @Vishnugupta

  837. @reiner Tor
    @Thorfinnsson


    satellites that can be launched on demand
     
    What is the difference between a normal satellite and one which could be launched on demand? I guess the launcher, which needs to be preferably solid fuel for a rapid operation. So, do they have a modified ICBM which could be used to launch a satellite to low orbit? Do they need to separately test such ability?

    Anyway, they have a low cost solid fuel satellite launch capability, I'm not sure if such rockets could be carried around and launched from transporter erectors, but since they were developed from military missiles, and are explicitly called "quick reaction" launchers, I guess that's the case.

    https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/science/china-launches-satellite-on-low-cost-solid-fuel-rocket/articleshow/66007959.cms

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuaizhou

    EDIT:

    Yes, that's definitely the case.

    "the launch can be conducted on rough terrain"

    "Satellites can be installed on a Kuaizhou rocket and stored in a maintenance facility. Once needed, the rocket is deployed by a transporter-erector-launcher vehicle (TEL) to a secure location. Launch readiness time can be as short as several hours.[13][14]"

    So there's no way to tell how many naval satellites they have in storage, nor how many launchers they have. Though the numbers currently are probably small.

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @Thorfinnsson

    China doesn’t yet have all satellites needed in orbit.

    Though it’d still make sense for them to keep some satellites in storage, because the ones in space might be destroyed in the first hours of war, so having a few in storage would make a lot of sense. But maybe they don’t have any in storage.

    https://www.businessinsider.com/china-wants-satellites-watching-every-ship-in-south-china-sea-2018-8?r=US&IR=T

  838. @reiner Tor
    @Mitleser

    It's needs a short term solution. Buying Western planes exposes Aeroflot to a possible future Western sanctions regime, like how Iran cannot maintain its fleet of airliners because of the US sanctions.

    So either they should reduce the number of flights, or they should find a short-term solution like a short-term (three years) leasing agreement.

    Buying Western airliners makes little sense, given the current geopolitical situation.

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @Mitleser

    And buying American planes makes even less sense than buying Airbus. The Americans usually have tougher sanctions, introduced at shorter notice, while the Europeans often include grandfathering provisions and they usually take longer to implement. Their sanctions are usually less stringent, or at most exactly as tough as the American sanctions. In 2014 the American sanctions might not have been tougher than the EU sanctions, because it was under Obama, and probably EU and US officials coordinated a lot about it. But then the Americans could and did quickly and unilaterally snap further sanctions, which the Europeans basically never do, so on average, you always end up with tougher American than European sanctions, especially when averaged out for longer time periods.

    Therefore, buying complicated maintenance-heavy equipment like airliners from the US makes less sense than buying from the EU.

    • Replies: @LondonBob
    @reiner Tor

    Boeing has a big R&D centre in Moscow, or did when Biden visited when I was there in 2011.

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @Dmitry

    , @Thorfinnsson
    @reiner Tor

    Unlike Iran I suspect Russia could manufacture its own spares for Western aircraft without too much difficulty if required.

  839. @reiner Tor
    @Mitleser

    It's needs a short term solution. Buying Western planes exposes Aeroflot to a possible future Western sanctions regime, like how Iran cannot maintain its fleet of airliners because of the US sanctions.

    So either they should reduce the number of flights, or they should find a short-term solution like a short-term (three years) leasing agreement.

    Buying Western airliners makes little sense, given the current geopolitical situation.

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @Mitleser

    You mean a mid/long term solution.

    The Iranians can maintain their aging fleets in the short-term, the real problem is what happens in the long-term to their already decades old air fleets.

    That is currently much less of an issue for the Russian air fleets whose Western planes are much less old.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @Mitleser

    No, I meant that it only needed a short term solution (the few years until the start of the MC-21 deliveries), if the Russian government was serious about supporting its aviation industry. And that assuming that 737 MAX will be re-certified quickly. There are growing demands of a full re-certification, because apparently it wasn't adequately tested at all, and so fixing the MCAS only means that this particular issue won't come up again. There might be other issues. Boeing has just found an unrelated problem.

    As such, the 737 MAX is not even more advanced than the MC-21. If anything, it's the other way around. So they are now locking themselves into an obsolete technology because... well, to be able to fly them three years earlier. That's what I meant: they need a short term solution for those three years.

    But, as I wrote, Russia is not serious about supporting its aviation industry.


    The Iranians can maintain their aging fleets in the short-term
     
    Except for a large number of horrible accidents these old airplanes patched with duct-tape suffer every once in a while. These Iranian planes are probably worse than old Soviet planes are.

    That is currently much less of an issue for the Russian air fleets whose Western planes are much less old.
     
    So Russia shouldn't worry about what would happen in a decade, because... hey, look, a squirrel!

    Replies: @Mitleser, @Dmitry

  840. @Mitleser
    @reiner Tor

    You mean a mid/long term solution.

    The Iranians can maintain their aging fleets in the short-term, the real problem is what happens in the long-term to their already decades old air fleets.

    That is currently much less of an issue for the Russian air fleets whose Western planes are much less old.

    Replies: @reiner Tor

    No, I meant that it only needed a short term solution (the few years until the start of the MC-21 deliveries), if the Russian government was serious about supporting its aviation industry. And that assuming that 737 MAX will be re-certified quickly. There are growing demands of a full re-certification, because apparently it wasn’t adequately tested at all, and so fixing the MCAS only means that this particular issue won’t come up again. There might be other issues. Boeing has just found an unrelated problem.

    As such, the 737 MAX is not even more advanced than the MC-21. If anything, it’s the other way around. So they are now locking themselves into an obsolete technology because… well, to be able to fly them three years earlier. That’s what I meant: they need a short term solution for those three years.

    But, as I wrote, Russia is not serious about supporting its aviation industry.

    The Iranians can maintain their aging fleets in the short-term

    Except for a large number of horrible accidents these old airplanes patched with duct-tape suffer every once in a while. These Iranian planes are probably worse than old Soviet planes are.

    That is currently much less of an issue for the Russian air fleets whose Western planes are much less old.

    So Russia shouldn’t worry about what would happen in a decade, because… hey, look, a squirrel!

    • Replies: @Mitleser
    @reiner Tor

    Short term solution for whom?
    There are already orders for 175 MC-21s.
    If Pobeda would order them now, they would have to wait at least half a decade because others like Red Wings which scrapped their plans to get new Airbus airliners would get them first.


    Except for a large number of horrible accidents these old airplanes patched with duct-tape suffer every once in a while.
     
    Not enough to ground their fleets for good.

    Replies: @reiner Tor

    , @Dmitry
    @reiner Tor

    The problem here is a safety issue of 737 Max 8, which is already on a criminal level.

    Ural airlines begins receiving 14 of the 737 8 Max planes from October this year. S7 was already flying two of the planes before the accident.

    In total, 74 of the 737 8 Max planes are being delivered in Russia from the next year to different airlines - so the safety issue is very relevant for any of us who go, or have family who travel on these airlines.

    Consolation is all over the world will fly thousands of the same model. So at least the plane is beta tested across so many different airlines, that the crashes and problems will happen and be resolved more likely overseas.


    Russia is not serious about supporting its aviation industry.

     

    And Hungary's plane production is - 0?

    Currently, the government pays billions of dollars, into the domestic aviation production - so I'm not sure how this can be described as "not serious about supporting its aviation industry".

    When I was reading about it, I only had the personal feeling that there is too much money in the industry (e.g. I was reading about hundreds of millions of dollars of state owned aircraft money which went to Sergei Pugachev's bank account some years ago, and which they are trying to recover with legal actions abroad).

    Replies: @reiner Tor

  841. @reiner Tor
    @reiner Tor

    And buying American planes makes even less sense than buying Airbus. The Americans usually have tougher sanctions, introduced at shorter notice, while the Europeans often include grandfathering provisions and they usually take longer to implement. Their sanctions are usually less stringent, or at most exactly as tough as the American sanctions. In 2014 the American sanctions might not have been tougher than the EU sanctions, because it was under Obama, and probably EU and US officials coordinated a lot about it. But then the Americans could and did quickly and unilaterally snap further sanctions, which the Europeans basically never do, so on average, you always end up with tougher American than European sanctions, especially when averaged out for longer time periods.

    Therefore, buying complicated maintenance-heavy equipment like airliners from the US makes less sense than buying from the EU.

    Replies: @LondonBob, @Thorfinnsson

    Boeing has a big R&D centre in Moscow, or did when Biden visited when I was there in 2011.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @LondonBob

    That might have been a factor. Sounds like a better argument. The Russian aviation industry probably benefits from the presence of the Boeing and Airbus R&D centers, though the patents go to the parent companies only, so the benefits are not that large.

    , @Dmitry
    @LondonBob

    The situation with so many 737 MAX orders is to worry about, because of its safety problems.

    However, Boeing company itself is a massive investor in Sverdlovsk region (where important 787 parts are produced).

    Here was Ural Boeing quietly opening second production in Sverdlovsk region a few months ago.

    https://i.imgur.com/jTqJQVU.jpg

    -

    About titanium valley, where Ural Boeing are the most important investor.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P9isw3izADA

  842. @LondonBob
    @reiner Tor

    Boeing has a big R&D centre in Moscow, or did when Biden visited when I was there in 2011.

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @Dmitry

    That might have been a factor. Sounds like a better argument. The Russian aviation industry probably benefits from the presence of the Boeing and Airbus R&D centers, though the patents go to the parent companies only, so the benefits are not that large.

  843. @reiner Tor
    @Mitleser

    No, I meant that it only needed a short term solution (the few years until the start of the MC-21 deliveries), if the Russian government was serious about supporting its aviation industry. And that assuming that 737 MAX will be re-certified quickly. There are growing demands of a full re-certification, because apparently it wasn't adequately tested at all, and so fixing the MCAS only means that this particular issue won't come up again. There might be other issues. Boeing has just found an unrelated problem.

    As such, the 737 MAX is not even more advanced than the MC-21. If anything, it's the other way around. So they are now locking themselves into an obsolete technology because... well, to be able to fly them three years earlier. That's what I meant: they need a short term solution for those three years.

    But, as I wrote, Russia is not serious about supporting its aviation industry.


    The Iranians can maintain their aging fleets in the short-term
     
    Except for a large number of horrible accidents these old airplanes patched with duct-tape suffer every once in a while. These Iranian planes are probably worse than old Soviet planes are.

    That is currently much less of an issue for the Russian air fleets whose Western planes are much less old.
     
    So Russia shouldn't worry about what would happen in a decade, because... hey, look, a squirrel!

    Replies: @Mitleser, @Dmitry

    Short term solution for whom?
    There are already orders for 175 MC-21s.
    If Pobeda would order them now, they would have to wait at least half a decade because others like Red Wings which scrapped their plans to get new Airbus airliners would get them first.

    Except for a large number of horrible accidents these old airplanes patched with duct-tape suffer every once in a while.

    Not enough to ground their fleets for good.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @Mitleser


    There are already orders for 175 MC-21s.
    If Pobeda would order them now, they would have to wait at least half a decade because others like Red Wings which scrapped their plans to get new Airbus airliners would get them first.
     
    In other words, there's not enough capacity. OK, that makes sense.
  844. @Mitleser
    @reiner Tor

    Short term solution for whom?
    There are already orders for 175 MC-21s.
    If Pobeda would order them now, they would have to wait at least half a decade because others like Red Wings which scrapped their plans to get new Airbus airliners would get them first.


    Except for a large number of horrible accidents these old airplanes patched with duct-tape suffer every once in a while.
     
    Not enough to ground their fleets for good.

    Replies: @reiner Tor

    There are already orders for 175 MC-21s.
    If Pobeda would order them now, they would have to wait at least half a decade because others like Red Wings which scrapped their plans to get new Airbus airliners would get them first.

    In other words, there’s not enough capacity. OK, that makes sense.

  845. @reiner Tor
    @Thorfinnsson


    satellites that can be launched on demand
     
    What is the difference between a normal satellite and one which could be launched on demand? I guess the launcher, which needs to be preferably solid fuel for a rapid operation. So, do they have a modified ICBM which could be used to launch a satellite to low orbit? Do they need to separately test such ability?

    Anyway, they have a low cost solid fuel satellite launch capability, I'm not sure if such rockets could be carried around and launched from transporter erectors, but since they were developed from military missiles, and are explicitly called "quick reaction" launchers, I guess that's the case.

    https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/science/china-launches-satellite-on-low-cost-solid-fuel-rocket/articleshow/66007959.cms

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuaizhou

    EDIT:

    Yes, that's definitely the case.

    "the launch can be conducted on rough terrain"

    "Satellites can be installed on a Kuaizhou rocket and stored in a maintenance facility. Once needed, the rocket is deployed by a transporter-erector-launcher vehicle (TEL) to a secure location. Launch readiness time can be as short as several hours.[13][14]"

    So there's no way to tell how many naval satellites they have in storage, nor how many launchers they have. Though the numbers currently are probably small.

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @Thorfinnsson

    The US-A satellites had nuclear reactors so they could operate at very low orbit. The ordinary method of powering satellites, solar panels, would cause satellites in such an orbit to fall to Earth too quickly to be useful.

    And yes, solid fuel is desired for a rapid launch capability. This is why ballistic missiles are ordinarily solid fuel. It’s also why Japan’s “space program” launches solid fuel rockets.

    The issue here isn’t that China lacks solid fuel rockets, it’s that they lack nuclear powered satellites intended for extremely low orbit operation.

    There are possibly other things they could launch than radar however. Optical and infrared imaging for instance has improved tremendously in the past generation, and unlike radar doesn’t require a lot of power. So perhaps China has developed battery-powered (or RTG) imaging satellites for this purpose.

    Such satellites could be quite small and launched with glorified sounding rockets.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @Thorfinnsson

    In other words, the US Navy's trust in its ability to protect its assets in case of war with China seems a bit overconfident.

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson

    , @Vishnugupta
    @Thorfinnsson

    I believe these satellite are powered by nuclear thermo electric generators i.e there is Pu241 which decays and produces heat and there is a thermo couple which produces electricity not miniaturized nuclear reactors(as in ones used in nuclear submarines).

    This I guess is used to power a hall effect ion engine to maintain orbit.

    This is pretty much standard on all space probes which need to travel beyond Mars where solar power doesn't work well and is relatively simple 50 year old technology.

    The most difficult part is producing Pu 241 which any country with nuclear fuel reprocessing capability can produce.

    Why do you imply it will be so difficult for the Chinese to develop such satellites?

    Replies: @reiner Tor

  846. @reiner Tor
    @reiner Tor

    And buying American planes makes even less sense than buying Airbus. The Americans usually have tougher sanctions, introduced at shorter notice, while the Europeans often include grandfathering provisions and they usually take longer to implement. Their sanctions are usually less stringent, or at most exactly as tough as the American sanctions. In 2014 the American sanctions might not have been tougher than the EU sanctions, because it was under Obama, and probably EU and US officials coordinated a lot about it. But then the Americans could and did quickly and unilaterally snap further sanctions, which the Europeans basically never do, so on average, you always end up with tougher American than European sanctions, especially when averaged out for longer time periods.

    Therefore, buying complicated maintenance-heavy equipment like airliners from the US makes less sense than buying from the EU.

    Replies: @LondonBob, @Thorfinnsson

    Unlike Iran I suspect Russia could manufacture its own spares for Western aircraft without too much difficulty if required.

  847. @Thorfinnsson
    @reiner Tor

    The US-A satellites had nuclear reactors so they could operate at very low orbit. The ordinary method of powering satellites, solar panels, would cause satellites in such an orbit to fall to Earth too quickly to be useful.

    And yes, solid fuel is desired for a rapid launch capability. This is why ballistic missiles are ordinarily solid fuel. It's also why Japan's "space program" launches solid fuel rockets.

    The issue here isn't that China lacks solid fuel rockets, it's that they lack nuclear powered satellites intended for extremely low orbit operation.

    There are possibly other things they could launch than radar however. Optical and infrared imaging for instance has improved tremendously in the past generation, and unlike radar doesn't require a lot of power. So perhaps China has developed battery-powered (or RTG) imaging satellites for this purpose.

    Such satellites could be quite small and launched with glorified sounding rockets.

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @Vishnugupta

    In other words, the US Navy’s trust in its ability to protect its assets in case of war with China seems a bit overconfident.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    @reiner Tor

    Yes, though in fairness to the USN that's probably true of most armed forces.

    Worth noting that imaging for obvious reasons offers much less coverage than radar.

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @reiner Tor

  848. @reiner Tor
    @Thorfinnsson

    In other words, the US Navy's trust in its ability to protect its assets in case of war with China seems a bit overconfident.

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson

    Yes, though in fairness to the USN that’s probably true of most armed forces.

    Worth noting that imaging for obvious reasons offers much less coverage than radar.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @Thorfinnsson

    The shortest book: Karlin Posts in April 2019.

    , @reiner Tor
    @Thorfinnsson


    imaging for obvious reasons offers much less coverage than radar
     
    They might have to wait for nice weather to sink a carrier. The missile itself does have a radar anyway, so it’s enough to have a somewhat accurate location for the carrier. If I were them, I’d launch several missiles to make sure.

    Of course it’s difficult to say if it’d work. AEGIS is also pretty sophisticated and has been upgraded for decades anyway. So maybe the US Navy is correct. But they definitely shouldn’t be so confident based on information we have now.
  849. @Thorfinnsson
    @reiner Tor

    Yes, though in fairness to the USN that's probably true of most armed forces.

    Worth noting that imaging for obvious reasons offers much less coverage than radar.

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @reiner Tor

    The shortest book: Karlin Posts in April 2019.

  850. @Thorfinnsson
    @reiner Tor

    The US-A satellites had nuclear reactors so they could operate at very low orbit. The ordinary method of powering satellites, solar panels, would cause satellites in such an orbit to fall to Earth too quickly to be useful.

    And yes, solid fuel is desired for a rapid launch capability. This is why ballistic missiles are ordinarily solid fuel. It's also why Japan's "space program" launches solid fuel rockets.

    The issue here isn't that China lacks solid fuel rockets, it's that they lack nuclear powered satellites intended for extremely low orbit operation.

    There are possibly other things they could launch than radar however. Optical and infrared imaging for instance has improved tremendously in the past generation, and unlike radar doesn't require a lot of power. So perhaps China has developed battery-powered (or RTG) imaging satellites for this purpose.

    Such satellites could be quite small and launched with glorified sounding rockets.

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @Vishnugupta

    I believe these satellite are powered by nuclear thermo electric generators i.e there is Pu241 which decays and produces heat and there is a thermo couple which produces electricity not miniaturized nuclear reactors(as in ones used in nuclear submarines).

    This I guess is used to power a hall effect ion engine to maintain orbit.

    This is pretty much standard on all space probes which need to travel beyond Mars where solar power doesn’t work well and is relatively simple 50 year old technology.

    The most difficult part is producing Pu 241 which any country with nuclear fuel reprocessing capability can produce.

    Why do you imply it will be so difficult for the Chinese to develop such satellites?

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @Vishnugupta

    I think his point was not that it’d be difficult for the Chinese to develop it, but that they haven’t yet developed it for some reason. (Most likely budget shortfalls?)

    Anyway, it’s pretty likely that they have something - either they actually do have these satellites, or they have something which obviates the need for it.

  851. @Vishnugupta
    @Thorfinnsson

    I believe these satellite are powered by nuclear thermo electric generators i.e there is Pu241 which decays and produces heat and there is a thermo couple which produces electricity not miniaturized nuclear reactors(as in ones used in nuclear submarines).

    This I guess is used to power a hall effect ion engine to maintain orbit.

    This is pretty much standard on all space probes which need to travel beyond Mars where solar power doesn't work well and is relatively simple 50 year old technology.

    The most difficult part is producing Pu 241 which any country with nuclear fuel reprocessing capability can produce.

    Why do you imply it will be so difficult for the Chinese to develop such satellites?

    Replies: @reiner Tor

    I think his point was not that it’d be difficult for the Chinese to develop it, but that they haven’t yet developed it for some reason. (Most likely budget shortfalls?)

    Anyway, it’s pretty likely that they have something – either they actually do have these satellites, or they have something which obviates the need for it.

  852. @Thorfinnsson
    @reiner Tor

    Yes, though in fairness to the USN that's probably true of most armed forces.

    Worth noting that imaging for obvious reasons offers much less coverage than radar.

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @reiner Tor

    imaging for obvious reasons offers much less coverage than radar

    They might have to wait for nice weather to sink a carrier. The missile itself does have a radar anyway, so it’s enough to have a somewhat accurate location for the carrier. If I were them, I’d launch several missiles to make sure.

    Of course it’s difficult to say if it’d work. AEGIS is also pretty sophisticated and has been upgraded for decades anyway. So maybe the US Navy is correct. But they definitely shouldn’t be so confident based on information we have now.

  853. Thought I should bring this here

    Thorfinnsson posted this chart in a thread elsewhere on Unz.com, one dedicated to Roosevelt’s role in World War Two.

    That Soviet data is fascinating

    A massive spike beginning in 1932, for some reason

    A staggering drop off in the middle of 1934

    A gradual return to a stasis in 1936

    Then another large spike timed perfectly with Stalin’s great purge of the army brass.

    Very, very interesting

    Let’s get some Russian historians in here to tell us what this data means in relation to Soviet policies and history of that period

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan

    I wonder if the early 30s surge is related to Japan taking over Manchuria in 1931?

  854. @LondonBob
    @reiner Tor

    Boeing has a big R&D centre in Moscow, or did when Biden visited when I was there in 2011.

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @Dmitry

    The situation with so many 737 MAX orders is to worry about, because of its safety problems.

    However, Boeing company itself is a massive investor in Sverdlovsk region (where important 787 parts are produced).

    Here was Ural Boeing quietly opening second production in Sverdlovsk region a few months ago.

    About titanium valley, where Ural Boeing are the most important investor.

  855. @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan
    Thought I should bring this here

    Thorfinnsson posted this chart in a thread elsewhere on Unz.com, one dedicated to Roosevelt’s role in World War Two.

    https://cdn-images-1.medium.com/max/2000/1*QTrcsP9A2Vt4mruU0Nl5DQ.png

    That Soviet data is fascinating

    A massive spike beginning in 1932, for some reason

    A staggering drop off in the middle of 1934

    A gradual return to a stasis in 1936

    Then another large spike timed perfectly with Stalin's great purge of the army brass.

    Very, very interesting

    Let's get some Russian historians in here to tell us what this data means in relation to Soviet policies and history of that period

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson

    I wonder if the early 30s surge is related to Japan taking over Manchuria in 1931?

  856. @reiner Tor
    @Mitleser

    No, I meant that it only needed a short term solution (the few years until the start of the MC-21 deliveries), if the Russian government was serious about supporting its aviation industry. And that assuming that 737 MAX will be re-certified quickly. There are growing demands of a full re-certification, because apparently it wasn't adequately tested at all, and so fixing the MCAS only means that this particular issue won't come up again. There might be other issues. Boeing has just found an unrelated problem.

    As such, the 737 MAX is not even more advanced than the MC-21. If anything, it's the other way around. So they are now locking themselves into an obsolete technology because... well, to be able to fly them three years earlier. That's what I meant: they need a short term solution for those three years.

    But, as I wrote, Russia is not serious about supporting its aviation industry.


    The Iranians can maintain their aging fleets in the short-term
     
    Except for a large number of horrible accidents these old airplanes patched with duct-tape suffer every once in a while. These Iranian planes are probably worse than old Soviet planes are.

    That is currently much less of an issue for the Russian air fleets whose Western planes are much less old.
     
    So Russia shouldn't worry about what would happen in a decade, because... hey, look, a squirrel!

    Replies: @Mitleser, @Dmitry

    The problem here is a safety issue of 737 Max 8, which is already on a criminal level.

    Ural airlines begins receiving 14 of the 737 8 Max planes from October this year. S7 was already flying two of the planes before the accident.

    In total, 74 of the 737 8 Max planes are being delivered in Russia from the next year to different airlines – so the safety issue is very relevant for any of us who go, or have family who travel on these airlines.

    Consolation is all over the world will fly thousands of the same model. So at least the plane is beta tested across so many different airlines, that the crashes and problems will happen and be resolved more likely overseas.

    Russia is not serious about supporting its aviation industry.

    And Hungary’s plane production is – 0?

    Currently, the government pays billions of dollars, into the domestic aviation production – so I’m not sure how this can be described as “not serious about supporting its aviation industry”.

    When I was reading about it, I only had the personal feeling that there is too much money in the industry (e.g. I was reading about hundreds of millions of dollars of state owned aircraft money which went to Sergei Pugachev’s bank account some years ago, and which they are trying to recover with legal actions abroad).

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @Dmitry

    The 737 could have other issues, since it was obviously rushed into production. That much you can tell from the fact that they didn’t even care for basic safety considerations. There might be other issues. E.g. perhaps the jackscrew is used more heavily than on other models, so it will physically wear out earlier; this could be a safety or just a maintenance and depreciation issue. The turbofan engine might be too heavy for the wings; again, this could be later a maintenance and depreciation issue, or a more serious safety issue. But there’s more likely a problem I don’t think of now.

    It’s pretty stupid to buy such a plane and lock yourself into such a technology for a decade or more.


    And Hungary’s plane production is – 0?
     
    How is that relevant? Hungary hasn’t had an aviation industry since 1945 (or November 1944, when the few still functioning factories were evacuated to Germany), and it’d be horribly expensive to start a new one out of scratch. (That’s not the case in Russia, which has an aviation industry which is often competitive internationally.) Hungary is too small for this anyway, both geographically (very little domestic aviation) and in terms of population (so we have fifteen times fewer engineers, fewer taxpayers to shoulder the investment, etc.), but anyway Hungary is of course trying to revive some domestic industry at taxpayer expense.

    government pays billions of dollars, into the domestic aviation production
     
    To get some returns on the investment, the government needs to create a market. It’s not very smart to create an industry but then keep importing inferior products.

    I can give you an example of stupid subsidies. Hungary keeps subsidizing its national railway. It also keeps subsidizing its national postal service. Hungary also spends a lot of money on road maintenance (which still are full of potholes anyway). Until 2004 mail in Hungary was delivered between cities by rail. Usually late at night there was always the last train, which stopped everywhere, the mail train. It was used by too few people to make it worth it, but it was very useful for those people, and the train was paid for by the postal service anyway. So quite naturally under the Socialist and Free Democrat government they built a new logistical center which could no longer be serviced by rail, and instead they had to buy more delivery vans and trucks. So they stopped the mail trains, they offloaded extra traffic on the roads, which altogether was slightly cheaper for the postal service (but mail delivery actually got slower!), while it made it necessary to increase subsidies to the railway.

    This is a stupid way to subsidize something.


    hundreds of millions of dollars of state owned aircraft money which went to Sergei Pugachev’s bank account
     
    You think these moneys wouldn’t be stolen if the government spent it on something else?
  857. @Anatoly Karlin
    @Thorfinnsson

    Correct, that's (my own) SSD.

    @ Dmitry,


    With this processor, I guess it would be more suitable to match with something like a 1070? I’m no expert, but I would assume 1070 would be more suitable to match it with?
     
    1070 has very similar performance to 1660-Ti but is almost three years old and just as expensive. No real point to it.

    Replies: @Dmitry, @donnyess

    The 1660 ti seems to be the one you want given the requirements. It’s still a pretty expensive board at 280 bucks. The 1660 is about 220 bucks. Maybe monitor the sales figures and go with the best seller…again probably the 1660 ti. If none of these more expensive cards get a large user base…maybe try the Asus rx-570 4gb at 150 bucks or the MSI rx-570 mk2 8gb at 190 bucks….see how it works and wait until you upgrade your system.

  858. @Dmitry
    @reiner Tor

    The problem here is a safety issue of 737 Max 8, which is already on a criminal level.

    Ural airlines begins receiving 14 of the 737 8 Max planes from October this year. S7 was already flying two of the planes before the accident.

    In total, 74 of the 737 8 Max planes are being delivered in Russia from the next year to different airlines - so the safety issue is very relevant for any of us who go, or have family who travel on these airlines.

    Consolation is all over the world will fly thousands of the same model. So at least the plane is beta tested across so many different airlines, that the crashes and problems will happen and be resolved more likely overseas.


    Russia is not serious about supporting its aviation industry.

     

    And Hungary's plane production is - 0?

    Currently, the government pays billions of dollars, into the domestic aviation production - so I'm not sure how this can be described as "not serious about supporting its aviation industry".

    When I was reading about it, I only had the personal feeling that there is too much money in the industry (e.g. I was reading about hundreds of millions of dollars of state owned aircraft money which went to Sergei Pugachev's bank account some years ago, and which they are trying to recover with legal actions abroad).

    Replies: @reiner Tor

    The 737 could have other issues, since it was obviously rushed into production. That much you can tell from the fact that they didn’t even care for basic safety considerations. There might be other issues. E.g. perhaps the jackscrew is used more heavily than on other models, so it will physically wear out earlier; this could be a safety or just a maintenance and depreciation issue. The turbofan engine might be too heavy for the wings; again, this could be later a maintenance and depreciation issue, or a more serious safety issue. But there’s more likely a problem I don’t think of now.

    It’s pretty stupid to buy such a plane and lock yourself into such a technology for a decade or more.

    And Hungary’s plane production is – 0?

    How is that relevant? Hungary hasn’t had an aviation industry since 1945 (or November 1944, when the few still functioning factories were evacuated to Germany), and it’d be horribly expensive to start a new one out of scratch. (That’s not the case in Russia, which has an aviation industry which is often competitive internationally.) Hungary is too small for this anyway, both geographically (very little domestic aviation) and in terms of population (so we have fifteen times fewer engineers, fewer taxpayers to shoulder the investment, etc.), but anyway Hungary is of course trying to revive some domestic industry at taxpayer expense.

    government pays billions of dollars, into the domestic aviation production

    To get some returns on the investment, the government needs to create a market. It’s not very smart to create an industry but then keep importing inferior products.

    I can give you an example of stupid subsidies. Hungary keeps subsidizing its national railway. It also keeps subsidizing its national postal service. Hungary also spends a lot of money on road maintenance (which still are full of potholes anyway). Until 2004 mail in Hungary was delivered between cities by rail. Usually late at night there was always the last train, which stopped everywhere, the mail train. It was used by too few people to make it worth it, but it was very useful for those people, and the train was paid for by the postal service anyway. So quite naturally under the Socialist and Free Democrat government they built a new logistical center which could no longer be serviced by rail, and instead they had to buy more delivery vans and trucks. So they stopped the mail trains, they offloaded extra traffic on the roads, which altogether was slightly cheaper for the postal service (but mail delivery actually got slower!), while it made it necessary to increase subsidies to the railway.

    This is a stupid way to subsidize something.

    hundreds of millions of dollars of state owned aircraft money which went to Sergei Pugachev’s bank account

    You think these moneys wouldn’t be stolen if the government spent it on something else?

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